++++ Start of thread 50377 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130001 (thread 50377) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-03 09:01:16 Subject: following bead Greetings all, I'm just starting to learn about wooden molding planes and have a new guy question for you old hands. I think I understand that there is a type of beading plane with a feature called a follow which is essentially a sole with a two-bead profile and an iron with only a one bead profile. The "empty" bead in the sole profile is used to register against a bead already cut in the work piece and guide the cutting of a new bead. Is this correct so far? If so, my question is this: how can you cut the first bead with a bead plane that has a follow? Doesn't the empty bead in the sole profile run aground on the work piece and prevent the iron from cutting? Do you need to cut a dado for the empty bead to ride in while cutting the first bead? Or do you always have to start it on the edge of the board? Blake ---- Start of Message 130063 (thread 50377) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-03-03 20:36:16 Subject: Re: following bead On 3 Mar 2004 at 9:01, Blake Ashley wrote: > I'm just starting to learn about wooden molding planes and have a new > guy question for you old hands. I think I understand that there is a > type of beading plane with a feature called a follow which is > essentially a sole with a two-bead profile and an iron with only a one > bead profile. The "empty" bead in the sole profile is used to register > against a bead already cut in the work piece and guide the cutting of a > new bead. Is this correct so far? If so, my question is this: how can > you cut the first bead with a bead plane that has a follow? Doesn't the > empty bead in the sole profile run aground on the work piece and prevent > the iron from cutting? Do you need to cut a dado for the empty bead to > ride in while cutting the first bead? Or do you always have to start it > on the edge of the board? The terminology I was taught for this plane is a reed and follow, although Whelan (The Wooden Plane) calls it a reed and guide based on some early UK catalogs. Of course, reeding is simply multiple beads laid down in parallel. As Whelan suggests (but does not explicitly state), you cut the first one with another plane, either a side bead (if starting at an edge) or a center bead of identical size. Once you have the first bead, you run the "follow" or guide part down it, cutting adjacent reeds as you go and moving over one reed at a time until you get tired of making them. In other words, you need another tool (what else did you expect here?). Whelan also cites a special plane made by Howarth that gets around this problem by having two irons, a single and double bead in a triple reeding plane. You cut the first three together, then remove the single iron and add pairs of reeds using the vacated space as a follow. Never seen one of these. I'm not sure I would want that many reeds together anyway; three's about my limit. I thought I had a reed and follow picked up in England when Richard and I were ravaging the Cotswolds for stray tools, but it was merely a triple reed plane. Darn, guess I found another plane I need. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ++++ End of thread 50377 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50378 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130003 (thread 50378) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-03 09:05:05 Subject: Fulton combo plane Hi all, Will the Stanley three-lobe nicker fit the Fulton (Sargent-made) combination plane? Thanks. Blake ++++ End of thread 50378 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50379 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130012 (thread 50379) ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-03-03 11:23:51 Subject: Chicago Heights (was Re: [oldtools] OLD Forge Gloat) Bob Nelson wrote: > I don't know what the > distinctions are between Chicago, Chicago Heights, and Grove. Chicago Heights is down in my neighborhood-- "da sout' side" as they say around here... This is a fairly small town, about 25 miles due south of the city, just west of the Indiana border. It's an area that had a lot of steel and heavy manufacturing at one time, but about all that's left now is a Ford plant (and I believe that's slated to close). Grove, OTOH, I have never heard of. There are lots of cities named "Grove" in the Chicago area (Buffalo, Downers, Morton, Elk, etc), but nothing with *just* "Grove". My guess is this is some sort of township or neighborhood that was incorporated into Chicago. There's a bunch of businesses called "Grove Something-or-Other" in one south side neighborhood I know of, but I always thought it had to do with Cottage Grove Avenue (a major thoroughfare through the area). I'll poke around and see if I can turn anything up... -- Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL "He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; he who dares not is a slave" - Wm. Drummond ---- Start of Message 130015 (thread 50379) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-03 12:33:49 Subject: Re: Chicago Heights (was Re: [oldtools] OLD Forge Gloat) Hi Ralph & All, Google Knows All!! I plug Canedy-Otto into it and find out that they were in Chicago Heights rather than Chicago proper and that they did indeed make blacksmith tools. So I'm now thinking my prior guess about them might not be as much of a longshot as I'd then thought. Best Wishes, Bob ++++ End of thread 50379 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50380 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130013 (thread 50380) ---- From: Ted Shuck Date: 2004-03-03 11:27:05 Subject: Heading east for a week I can't believe it's that time already, but GIT #1 is a junior in high school and is ready to take his spring break to look at potential places to spend four years of his life. So... We are headed east for a week, March 20-27 to get some idea of where he would be going. This looks to involve a lot of driving between Baltimore, MD and Amherst, MA. Although about 95% of this time will be spent driving, touring campuses, and sleeping, I was hoping I might find some "Old Tool Haunts" along the way. If anybody has some suggestions, I'd really appreciate it. Coming from old tool heck in Denver, anything is sure to look like heaven to me. Thanks, Ted ++++ End of thread 50380 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50381 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130016 (thread 50381) ---- From: "Jason Knight" Date: 2004-03-03 12:41:51 Subject: Greetings and embarrassing newby question Hello all, I've been lurking for quite a while, reading the archive and pestering Chris Swingley with a few questions off list, and sooner or later, may even submit a bio. I've got lots of questions, but the one I'll put out there today is one that swmbo asked the other day as I was scraping away at a piece of rust my Pop swears was a saw: Why don't you just buy a new one? I had an easy answer for this one, I was cleaning up a saw that was my Dad's, that he thinks may have been his dad's or grand dad's. But then (when she wasn't looking) I did a quick browse of the web and didn't see a whole lot of hand saws being sold as new. Do they truly "not make 'em like they used to", or is it such a niche market that you don't readily find decent hand tools, or are the $10 saws from Sears or the Depot perfectly fine, just devoid of character and personality, or am I not looking in the right places? I'm running out of my Pop's old tools to fix up and I'm going to need justification for bringing home any more old ones. Jason ---- Start of Message 130018 (thread 50381) ---- From: "Pete Bergstrom" Date: 2004-03-03 12:30:15 Subject: Re: Greetings and embarrassing newby question "Jason Knight" wrote: > Hello all, > I've been lurking for quite a while, reading the archive and pestering > Chris Swingley with a few questions off list, and sooner or later, may > even submit a bio. I've got lots of questions, but the one I'll put out > there today is one that swmbo asked the other day as I was scraping away > at a piece of rust my Pop swears was a saw: > > Why don't you just buy a new one? > > I had an easy answer for this one, I was cleaning up a saw that was my > Dad's, that he thinks may have been his dad's or grand dad's. But then > (when she wasn't looking) I did a quick browse of the web and didn't see a > whole lot of hand saws being sold as new. Do they truly "not make 'em like > they used to", or is it such a niche market that you don't readily find > decent hand tools, or are the $10 saws from Sears or the Depot perfectly > fine, just devoid of character and personality, or am I not looking in the > right places? I'm running out of my Pop's old tools to fix up and I'm > going to need justification for bringing home any more old ones. I've tried new panel saws, and they're ok for hacking off pieces of 2x4s. Around here (St. Paul, Minnesota), it's pretty easy to find panel saws in very good shape (if there's any rust at all, it's either complete or a couple of tiny spots) for at most a couple of dollars each. Good steel- or brass-backed dovetail, tenon and carcase saws are a different matter. I found a couple of 12-15" backsaws a few years ago and was happy to pay $30 each. I still use them a lot and expect they'll last for my heirs. I bought a LN Independence dovetail saw and wouldn't give it up for anything. I plan to buy a LN tenon saw this spring - they're that good. Pete ---- Start of Message 130023 (thread 50381) ---- From: kjworz@c... Date: 2004-03-03 19:07:07 Subject: Re: Greetings and embarrassing newby question Nope. They DON'T make me like they used to. Not the stuff you get at Home Despot or Sears. While metallurgy is more advanced and they COULD make some really great saw steel that'll saw circles around the old guys', they DON'T put that steel in your brand new $20 saw. They don't double-taper-grind new saw steel. It's all one thickness on the POS new saw. And no one with a lignum hammer is doing the highly skilled work of "Blocking" the blade, to be sure it's not too stiff, nor too wobbly. Ever tried to ring a tone off a new saw and compare to the sound of an old saw? Check out the Disstonian Institute for more info. Below is a link to the Institutes preservation of a 1907 factory tour http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/saw_works.html -- -Chris Schwartz, Ex-Brewer Stealth #97 Silver Spring, MD I've got lots of questions, but the one I'll put out > there today is one that swmbo asked the other day as I was scraping > away at a piece of rust my Pop swears was a saw: > > Why don't you just buy a new one? > > I had an easy answer for this one, I was cleaning up a saw that was my > Dad's, that he thinks may have been his dad's or grand dad's. But then > (when she wasn't looking) I did a quick browse of the web and didn't > see a whole lot of hand saws being sold as new. Do they truly "not > make 'em like they used to", ---- Start of Message 130031 (thread 50381) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-03 16:34:14 Subject: Re: Greetings and embarrassing newby question >I had an easy answer for this one, I was cleaning up a saw that was my >Dad's, that he thinks may have been his dad's or grand dad's. But then >(when she wasn't looking) I did a quick browse of the web and didn't see a >whole lot of hand saws being sold as new. Do they truly "not make 'em like >they used to", or is it such a niche market that you don't readily find >decent hand tools, or are the $10 saws from Sears or the Depot perfectly >fine, just devoid of character and personality, or am I not looking in the >right places? I'm running out of my Pop's old tools to fix up and I'm >going to need justification for bringing home any more old ones. Last time I looked, what is marketed as being a quality full size hand saw (I don't agree) was 62 $US. It's really ugly and I don't see how they can get away with saying the handle is comfortable. If Lie-Nielsen and others make them, they're surely a lot more than that. I've never paid more than 7 $US for an old handsaw, perfectly staight with a really nicely carved handle, and I have over 50 of them (I'm not sure how that happened, but I think there's some sort of virus being transmitted through oldtools). Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130038 (thread 50381) ---- From: "Greg Peters" Date: 2004-03-03 21:47:25 Subject: Re: Greetings and embarrassing newby question I've never paid more than 7 $US for an old handsaw, perfectly staight with a really nicely carved handle, and I have over 50 of them (I'm not sure how that happened, but I think there's some sort of virus being transmitted through oldtools). Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) Paul, it is a virus--I have contracted it too, and there is no known cure. Should one ever become available, I will make sure SWMBO doesn't find out. greg ---- Start of Message 130041 (thread 50381) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-03 23:32:09 Subject: re: Greetings and embarrassing newby question What they said. A really good quality saw that is worth the effort to file and re-file is gonna set you way back, and I don't think that many of those are double beveled. This allows for less set in the teeth making for a cleaner and easier cut. Backless old Disstons are much cheaper than the cheapies at Sears, HD etc, and they ARE worth the effort of rehabbing and lasting a couple of lifetimes. Disston backsaws, I guess being more popular with the tailed tool people, cost you a bit more, well, quite a bit more on e-bay at least. But again, they are worth the extra money and the effort. Besides, the craftsman of yore left some of their skills along with their sweat in these saws. I just but a Disston Backsaw that is in the neighborhood of 130 years old. Still don't know if I will use it, but I'm sure gonna make it useable. Pick up one of these saws and you can almost feel the history in it. Tune it and clean it up, and cut a piece of wood with it. There's just somethin there. ---- Start of Message 130076 (thread 50381) ---- From: traviswa@u... Date: 2004-03-04 02:53:25 Subject: Re: Greetings and embarrassing newby question > even submit a bio. I've got lots of questions, but the one I'll put > out there today is one that swmbo asked the other day as I was > scraping away at a piece of rust my Pop swears was a saw: > > Why don't you just buy a new one? Jason, That's an excellent Q. Around here (Brisbane, AU), anyhow, I hadn't had much luck finding used saws at antique stores (and I hadn't yet found flea markets...). TRIED to buy a decent used saw at the local Borg. All they stocked were the $15-$30 "disposable" panel saws, with teeth that were neither rip nor crosscut. Thppt! A few weeks later, hit my first post-handtool epiphany flea market. Found a slightly rusty crosscut for around five bucks. Not a famous brand -- but a WOODEN handle (not some orange plastic thing). And they were REAL crosscut teeth. That's why. :) --Travis ---- Start of Message 130106 (thread 50381) ---- From: Ren Tescher Date: 2004-03-04 10:39:56 Subject: Re: Greetings and embarrassing newby question Greetings Jason, If you compare the handles of an old saw and a new Borg saw, you may find the old saw is more comfortable. It was shaped to be used all the live long day, wheraas a newer saw would only be used to cut a 2x4 or two before the user decided they 'needed' a tailed one. Yes, it is kinda strange, here we live in the Age of Ergonomics and a 150 year old saw has a more comfortable handle! Ren Tescher Pine Island, MN dona nobis pacem ++++ End of thread 50381 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50382 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130019 (thread 50382) ---- From: "martin" Date: 2004-03-03 13:22:15 Subject: re: chicago heights Canedy-otto mfg Chicago Heights ILL,thats what's on my drill press im restoring (see link).They made very heavy duty equipment drill press post mount floor mount and many blacksmith item forge etc. http://mysite.verizon.net/vze21z3z ++++ End of thread 50382 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50383 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130022 (thread 50383) ---- From: "Robert Ferris" Date: 2004-03-03 14:05:07 Subject: Milwaukee Rust Hunting I'm going to be in Milwaukee for the next 3 days. If I have the time I'd like to do some rust hunting. Does anyone have any recommendations? Thanks, Bob ____________________________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.l- ycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?S- RC=lycos10 ++++ End of thread 50383 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50384 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130027 (thread 50384) ---- From: "Greg Peters" Date: 2004-03-03 20:29:04 Subject: Shoulder cuts on tenons Gents, I was wondering if I could get some input on how a Galoot would make a crisp shoulder cut(s) for a M & T joint? I've done this before, using a zero set fine tooth x-cut panel saw and a jig to hold the work; though I couldn't help thinking the collective wisdom here might have a better solution. The jig I used was during a class I took, so the jig isn't mine, nor do I have the plans. Hence the query. An aside: the word "eyeballing" should never be used in a sentence with "cutting tenon shoulders". DAMHIKT Greg ---- Start of Message 130028 (thread 50384) ---- From: "Robert Fortier" Date: 2004-03-03 16:05:41 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons When I cut shoulder on a tenon, I often start the cut with my cross-cut = saw along a small square. This way I'm sure that I am 90 deg on the cut = and I eliminate mistakes. I know that this procedure might affect the = teeth of the saw, but you cloud easily put a shim , say 1/8 thick, under = the square, so it doesnt touch the teeth of the saw.=20 Bob in Sherbrooke, Province of Qu=C3=A9bec -----Message d'origine----- De : Greg Peters [mailto:rgpeters@m...] Envoy=C3=A9 : 3 mars, 2004 15:29 =C3=80 : oldtools Objet : [oldtools] Shoulder cuts on tenons Gents, I was wondering if I could get some input on how a Galoot would make a = crisp shoulder cut(s) for a M & T joint? I've done this before, using a zero set fine tooth x-cut panel saw and a = jig to hold the work; though I couldn't help thinking the collective = wisdom here might have a better solution. The jig I used was during a = class I took, so the jig isn't mine, nor do I have the plans. Hence the = query. An aside: the word "eyeballing" should never be used in a sentence with = "cutting tenon shoulders". DAMHIKT Greg ---- Start of Message 130030 (thread 50384) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-03 14:10:08 Subject: Re: Shoulder cuts on tenons I usually mark the line with a cutting gauge or a marking knife. Then I use the corner of a chisel to turn that knife cut into a little groove on the waste side of the line. Then I start a cross-cut backsaw (or my little Dozuki if it is a small tenon) in that groove. The groove is just big enough for the points of the teeth on the non-waste side of the saw to register against. Works pretty well. I think it came to me from Tage Frid's book. The tricky part for me is getting a clean cut on the two shoulders perpendicular to the one I am cutting - especially if I forget to use my dominant eye. Any drift and there's a gap in the joint. >>> "Greg Peters" 03/03/2004 1:29:04 PM >>> Gents, I was wondering if I could get some input on how a Galoot would make a crisp shoulder cut(s) for a M & T joint? I've done this before, using a zero set fine tooth x-cut panel saw and a jig to hold the work; though I couldn't help thinking the collective wisdom here might have a better solution. The jig I used was during a class I took, so the jig isn't mine, nor do I have the plans. Hence the query. An aside: the word "eyeballing" should never be used in a sentence with "cutting tenon shoulders". DAMHIKT Greg ---- Start of Message 130037 (thread 50384) ---- From: "S. Micah Salb" Date: 2004-03-03 17:13:41 Subject: Re: Shoulder cuts on tenons I'm completely with Blake here. I'll just add, though, that there is a reason they make shoulder planes. I score my cut VERY deeply with a good marking knife (I have a beautiful turned Cocobolo layout knife). That helps a lot. And then the chisel bit. OR I'll just use the knife and twist it a bit, which does the same thing. It also avoids jagging-up the line with the corners of the chisel. But, again, you probably should plan to use the shoulder plane to make a nice, crisp, straight, perpendicular shoulder. -Micah Salb Washington, D.C. http://www.supertool.com/layknife.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blake Ashley" To: "oldtools" Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shoulder cuts on tenons > I usually mark the line with a cutting gauge or a marking knife. Then I > use the corner of a chisel to turn that knife cut into a little groove > on the waste side of the line. Then I start a cross-cut backsaw (or my > little Dozuki if it is a small tenon) in that groove. The groove is > just big enough for the points of the teeth on the non-waste side of the > saw to register against. Works pretty well. I think it came to me from > Tage Frid's book. The tricky part for me is getting a clean cut on the > two shoulders perpendicular to the one I am cutting - especially if I > forget to use my dominant eye. Any drift and there's a gap in the > joint. > > >>> "Greg Peters" 03/03/2004 1:29:04 PM >>> > Gents, > > I was wondering if I could get some input on how a Galoot would make a > crisp shoulder cut(s) for a M & T joint? > > I've done this before, using a zero set fine tooth x-cut panel saw and > a jig to hold the work; though I couldn't help thinking the collective > wisdom here might have a better solution. The jig I used was during a > class I took, so the jig isn't mine, nor do I have the plans. Hence the > query. > > An aside: the word "eyeballing" should never be used in a sentence > with "cutting tenon shoulders". DAMHIKT > > Greg > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130045 (thread 50384) ---- From: Johnny Johnson Date: 2004-03-03 19:54:30 Subject: Re: Shoulder cuts on tenons At 08:29 PM 3/3/2004 +0000, Greg Peters wrote: >I was wondering if I could get some input on how a Galoot would make a >crisp shoulder cut(s) for a M & T joint? Hi Greg, I certainly wouldn't own up to doing it but - I expect a quick, accurate way would be to use something like a Stanley #244 miter box. Those types of boxes have depth stops that you could set to control the depth of the cut and you could clamp another stop in place to locate the cuts. I bet you could make some real nice shoulders that way if you had the miter box tuned to make accurate 90 degree cuts. Later, Johnny __________________________ Johnny Johnson Lilburn, GA mailto:jjohnso4@c... ---- Start of Message 130054 (thread 50384) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-03 22:15:30 Subject: Re: Shoulder cuts on tenons Hi Blake, Have you tried the 28 step golf swing? >I usually mark the line with a cutting gauge or a marking knife. Then I >use the corner of a chisel to turn that knife cut into a little groove >on the waste side of the line. Then I start a cross-cut backsaw (or my >little Dozuki if it is a small tenon) in that groove. The groove is >just big enough for the points of the teeth on the non-waste side of the >saw to register against. Works pretty well. I think it came to me from >Tage Frid's book. The tricky part for me is getting a clean cut on the >two shoulders perpendicular to the one I am cutting - especially if I >forget to use my dominant eye. Any drift and there's a gap in the >joint. > ---- Start of Message 130072 (thread 50384) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-03-04 08:08:50 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons : -----Original Message----- : From: Blake Ashley [mailto:Blake.Ashley@t...] : Sent: 03 March 2004 21:10 : To: oldtools : Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shoulder cuts on tenons : : : I usually mark the line with a cutting gauge or a marking : knife. Then I : use the corner of a chisel to turn that knife cut into a little groove : on the waste side of the line. Given a good deep knife line, I wonder whether the oft-recommended chisel enhancement is truly necessary? Having recourse to my web site (yet again, some might say?) - Marking Out Notes - Why Use a Marking Knife, the fourth pic down shows that as the kerf is started, the wood breaks away to automatically form a shoulder against which the saw can register. Having tried the chisel dodge a few times, I fear that I've done more harm than good, though of course others will have had greater success. The problem from my point of view is that it seems to be based on the assumption that the entire length of the saw edge is placed in the groove and one tries to progress from this point. The snag is that it is quite easy for the saw to jump out and scar the shoulder. I think that one will have greater control if the kerf is started at the far end of the line with the saw handle slightly raised. This starts a groove that forms a pivot point for the saw. As the hand is lowered one can inspect the progress of the kerf, making minute adjustments as one proceeds. If one does go astray, it is more likely that this will be towards the waste side of the line, whereon inspection of the witness marks will show what remedy is required. Jeff, who reckons that real woodworkers start sawcuts with a forward stroke. -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 130073 (thread 50384) ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-03-04 09:45:52 Subject: Re: Shoulder cuts on tenons Greg Peters wrote: > Gents, > > I was wondering if I could get some input on how a Galoot would make a > crisp shoulder cut(s) for a M & T joint? http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_i- d=84900&submit_thread=1#message (here's the earlier thread referred to) http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.e- du/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_id=79355&submit_thread=1#message For a closer approach to perfection, cut *near* the marked line, and plane to the line with your expensive shoulder plane. Takes longer, needs more tools. BugBear ---- Start of Message 130100 (thread 50384) ---- From: "S. Micah Salb" Date: 2004-03-04 11:09:22 Subject: Re: Shoulder cuts on tenons > I think that one will have greater control if the kerf is started at the > far end of the line with the saw handle slightly raised. This starts a The only problem with doing this is that it increases the likelihood that your shoulder line won't be straight; you might START at 90 degrees to the edge, but when you lower the saw to cut the entire line, you might end up very slightly off that, causing a curve in your shoulder. > Jeff, who reckons that real woodworkers start sawcuts with a forward > stroke. I've heard this before --- notably, by the way, on Eddie Sirotich's site --- but I'VE not accomplished it successfully! -Micah ---- Start of Message 130125 (thread 50384) ---- From: "P J McBride" Date: 2004-03-05 09:22:34 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons GG's I posted a note about the Bob Lynn woodworking tool museum, and his book = *Woodwork, my first 70 years*which has some fantastic tips. I have taken the liberty of relating word for word below his recommended = method for this job. I have tried this, and at first found it a little = difficult but persevered and now like it. The key for me was to go at it = slowly...I got good results. Jigs have their place...I love them in some applications, but they can = significantly slow the development of fluency with your hand tools. =20 Regards, Peter In Melbourne, Aust. CUTTING A SHOULDER WITH A TENON SAW, Bob Lynn. The mark must be made with a fine cutting knife. A pencil mark or = scratch will not do. For a right-handed person the shoulder is always to = the left and the waste to the right. The wood should be clamped firmly = to the bench and the saw must at all times be kept plumb or square to = the face. Cutting the shoulder under, or slightly out of square, so that = only the top point will fit is cheating and is not allowed. Start the cut carefully at a point furthest from the body, leaving the = cutting knife mark just in place on the left side. Enter only the depth = of the teeth. Keep pressure to the left with the right index finger and = gradually cut towards the body until the full width of the cut is = complete, but still only to the depth of the teeth. By applying pressure = to the right index finger and still keeping the saw plumb, with slight = forward and back movement, the left hand face of the blade is kept in = perfect contact with the cutting knife mark. The right side of the blade = will show a gap equal to the amount of set of teeth projecting beyond = one face of the blade, because that same amount on the left side is = right under the mark. Still keeping plumb, continue the cut until the correct depth is = reached. The basic point to remember is that the blade is not kept = central in the saw cut but pressed to the shoulder side of the cut. ---- Start of Message 130158 (thread 50384) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-03-05 08:21:18 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons : -----Original Message----- : From: S. Micah Salb [mailto:ssalb@l...] : Sent: 04 March 2004 16:09 : To: oldtools : Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shoulder cuts on tenons : : : > I think that one will have greater control if the kerf is : started at the : > far end of the line with the saw handle slightly raised. : This starts a : : The only problem with doing this is that it increases the : likelihood that : your shoulder line won't be straight; you might START at 90 : degrees to the : edge, but when you lower the saw to cut the entire line, you : might end up : very slightly off that, causing a curve in your shoulder. The trick is (for right-handers) is to start with the hand very slightly to the right of where it should be. As the kerf progresses, on automatically (I hope!) re-adjusts so that the kerf does not run over to the other side of the line. I think that one problem for the tyro is that the saw is used with too much anxiety, pressure applied in the wrong places and directios with half-frozen muscles so that a wrong kind of control is exerted. This prevents the saw sensitively drifting against the shoulder formed by the deep knife line. This, I fear, is a bit waffly but I hope you get the drift (pun not excused!). : : > Jeff, who reckons that real woodworkers start sawcuts with a forward : > stroke. : : I've heard this before --- notably, by the way, on Eddie : Sirotich's site --- : but I'VE not accomplished it successfully! As in over areas of life, deftness of touch is the answer. A low angle of attack also helps. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 130162 (thread 50384) ---- From: "Andrew F in Australia" Date: 2004-03-05 08:47:20 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons Greg (?) asked how to get a crisp clean shoulder on a tenon: The answer from my training is 1. define the shoulder with a good marking knife line 2. cut to that line accurately, leaving the clear knife-cut outer perimeter of the knife mark behind, giving a crisp shoulder. 2a. goes without saying that the saw cut needs to be perfectly square 3. Use a shoulder plane if and only if you drift with the saw. As with everything, it's easy when you have had the practice. But a real bear to learn. Cheers, Andrew ---- Start of Message 130198 (thread 50384) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-05 08:57:18 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons But if there is set in the saw and the saw drifts against the shoulder, doesn't it undercut the shoulder? >>> "Jeff Gorman" 03/05/2004 1:21:18 AM >>> : -----Original Message----- : From: S. Micah Salb [mailto:ssalb@l...] : Sent: 04 March 2004 16:09 : To: oldtools : Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shoulder cuts on tenons : : : > I think that one will have greater control if the kerf is : started at the : > far end of the line with the saw handle slightly raised. : This starts a : : The only problem with doing this is that it increases the : likelihood that : your shoulder line won't be straight; you might START at 90 : degrees to the : edge, but when you lower the saw to cut the entire line, you : might end up : very slightly off that, causing a curve in your shoulder. The trick is (for right-handers) is to start with the hand very slightly to the right of where it should be. As the kerf progresses, on automatically (I hope!) re-adjusts so that the kerf does not run over to the other side of the line. I think that one problem for the tyro is that the saw is used with too much anxiety, pressure applied in the wrong places and directios with half-frozen muscles so that a wrong kind of control is exerted. This prevents the saw sensitively drifting against the shoulder formed by the deep knife line. This, I fear, is a bit waffly but I hope you get the drift (pun not excused!). : : > Jeff, who reckons that real woodworkers start sawcuts with a forward : > stroke. : : I've heard this before --- notably, by the way, on Eddie : Sirotich's site --- : but I'VE not accomplished it successfully! As in over areas of life, deftness of touch is the answer. A low angle of attack also helps. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 130217 (thread 50384) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-03-06 08:00:55 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons : -----Original Message----- : From: Blake Ashley [mailto:Blake.Ashley@t...] : Sent: 05 March 2004 15:57 : To: oldtools@c...; amgron@c... : Subject: RE: [oldtools] Shoulder cuts on tenons : : : But if there is set in the saw and the saw drifts against the : shoulder, : doesn't it undercut the shoulder? Not in my experience. Depending on the wood, sometimes there is a bit of fuzz that could need trimming - see the second photo down on the 'Why Use A Marking Knife' page. The wood was Jelutong (ie very soft), selected to enable a deep knife cut to be made. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 130225 (thread 50384) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-06 10:34:41 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons Hi All, I've only been skimming the messages discusssing why saw cuts don't track straight, but it's dawned on me that some ot the info on keeping them straight might be useful to my wife. She has never been able to make a straight down cut in a loaf of bread, cake, etc.; the cut always tracks into the loaf, etc., at the bottom and leaves the top overhanging. She is so totally incapable of making a straight cut that it's become a standing joke in our family. Although she tends to cut the right side of a loaf (which seems wrong to me), she's just as crooked cutting either side. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130226 (thread 50384) ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 2004-03-06 11:34:32 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons Hi, Bob and others One of my daughters who couldn't cut bread straight got a wooden miter box to guide the knife. Trevor ---- Start of Message 130229 (thread 50384) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-06 12:40:50 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons Hi Trevor & All, Re using a miter box to slice bread. She got a thing sort of like that once - a board with rows of posts along each side. You supposedly ran the knife down between the posts to make straight cuts. However, the posts were set fairly far apart which caused two problems. The cut would still be crooked within the limits of that separation and the slices would be thicker than we desired if you moved along from one post to the next. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130261 (thread 50384) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-07 10:29:56 Subject: Re: Shoulder cuts on tenons I've found a bench hook to be useful in not only keeping the piece from moving around (no clamps necessary) but in keeping the saw vertical. If the far piece of the hook (the fence) is high enough you can cut a slot in it and use it like a miter box, or just use the end of the fence as a guide (and put a thin piece of scrap on the bench so you don't saw into it) My small sawing bench also has a high rear fence but in that case the wood being cut protrudes past the end of it and the side of the saw only rests on the end the fence on its left side. For those who don't know what a bench hook is it looks like this from the side : ___ | | | | <- fence ___________| | | | | | workpiece | | ___________________|___________|___| | | | | |___________________________________| | | | | | | <- this part goes in the vise |___| Paul Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130293 (thread 50384) ---- From: "Foster, Jim" Date: 2004-03-08 10:57:51 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons I have a bread board that has sides with slots in it that you stick the loaf between and cut straight, even slices. But the=20 main reason people have trouble getting straight cuts is often the same as for saws: Serrated knives usually have the serrations cut from one side and are kinda like saws with uneven set. Knives serrated from both sides so the edge is symmetrical will cut straight. And a suitably sharp non serrated knife will cut fresh=20 bread straight without mushing it. Oh, and of course the other=20 consideration is which is her dominant eye .... B^)=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Trevor Robinson [mailto:robinson@b...] > Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 10:35 AM > To: oldtools > Cc: oldtools > Subject: RE: [oldtools] Shoulder cuts on tenons >=20 >=20 > Hi, Bob and others > One of my daughters who couldn't cut bread straight got a wooden > miter box to guide the knife. > Trevor ++++ End of thread 50384 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50385 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130029 (thread 50385) ---- From: "Greg Peters" Date: 2004-03-03 20:54:16 Subject: finding good homes Gents, Help me play matchmaker... A while back, I found an old Disston D-8 that had been 'retrofitted' with a handle that fit a 23 (extra bolt holes had been drilled into the D8). I still haven't found a home for that handle (it's a mahogany handle, for a D43 I think), nor have I found a handle for the blade itslef (it's pretty cruddy, the etch is gone). If anyone has an old handle that would fit a D8, let me know. By the same token, if you have a 43 whose handle is shot, drop me a line. I almost bid on a handle for the D8 which was on the Bay last weekend, but it ended up going for $10. Heck, I generally don't pay more than $10 for an entire saw--you know, the metal part included (says the addict who just picked up seven saws in two different auctions because he couldn't say no to the words 'Disston Saw Lot'!). I do have a nice saw rack, but it's full. The backsaws are homeless, the new saws are homeless--even the panel saws have 'cramped quarters'. Sigh, daddy has a saw problem. Greg ++++ End of thread 50385 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50386 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130033 (thread 50386) ---- From: "P J McBride" Date: 2004-03-04 08:59:50 Subject: Oldtool heaven in New Zealand. GG's I just put a page on my website with plenty of pictures of a place that must be tool heaven. In New Zealand there is a museum that every galoot must see before passing on to the real tool heaven. It was started by a Bob Lynn, a fantastic character in his 80's. I spent a day there last March. http://www.petermcbride.com/lynn/ I haven't seen much publicity about this place, and I know we are on the *other side of the world* from most galoots, but Bob is getting on a bit. It would be a shame not to meet him because you didn't know this place existed. I bought Bob's book there, *Woodwork, my first 70 years* it was cheap enough, and is filled with quaint stories, pictures, tricks and tips. Regards, Peter, In Melbourne, Aust just a few hours from NZ by plane. ++++ End of thread 50386 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50387 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130034 (thread 50387) ---- From: Charles Stroom Date: 2004-03-03 22:59:37 Subject: FWW index, message to Martin Gardner Martin Gardner, you sent me an email regarding the Fine Woodworking index. I replied, but my email was rejected by att.net, because my ISP seems to be on att's blacklist. I sent the message a second time, and that seemed to be OK, at least I got nothing horrible back. Did you get it? I joined this oldtools list just now (so I found out about it, although I wished that somewhere there is the info on how to send emails to the list:-). Cheers Charles Stroom email: charles@s... url: http://www.xs4all.nl/~stremen ++++ End of thread 50387 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50388 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130043 (thread 50388) ---- From: "Anthony Seo" Date: 2004-03-03 19:29:11 Subject: Distaff & the Trades I have sort of access to a database of tradesmen culled from English trade directories dating from 1766 thru the 1850's, with most of the data in the 1820 to 1850's time frame. From that data base (19336 records) there are 238 women listed (1.23% of the total). Some of the trades 2 Anchorsmiths 2 Awl Blade Makes 26 Blacksmiths 17 Braziers - Tin Workers 17 Carpenter - Builder-Joiner-Cabinet Maker 9 Coopers 3 Edge Tool Makers 1 Gimblet & Bit Maker (Gimlet) 2 Gun Barrel Makers 30 Ironmongers 3 Nail Makers 1 Plane Maker (Anne Parkes Birmingham 1839) 1 Saw Maker 1 Turner & Chairmaker 2 Turners 2 Wheelwrights Lots were involved in the Sheffield cutlery trades as well. For what it's worth Tony ---- Start of Message 130046 (thread 50388) ---- From: "P J McBride" Date: 2004-03-04 12:15:46 Subject: RE: Distaff & the Trades Tony, and GG's I have a book called... Women Silversmiths 1685 - 1845, http://crunruh.zoovy.com/product/094097911X out of print now, but an interesting insight into the women working in my industry over that period. Many entered through their husbands dying (early because of the toxicity of some of the processes), and some entering through *burnishing and polishing, engraving and apprenticeship* Goldsmiths' guild Registry shows 19 young women completed their apprenticeships 1614 - 1845, but an additional 142 were apprenticed. Not a lot by any stretch, but a fact not often realised. The book has photos of some of the work done by them...open the link above and have a look. Regards, Peter In Melbourne, Australia where over the past 25 years I trained 4 young women apprentice jewellery makers...(he states proudly) ---- Start of Message 130264 (thread 50388) ---- From: "john" Date: 2004-03-07 09:59:25 Subject: RE: Distaff & the Trades Honorable GGs, There have been a number of discussions over the years about women in the trades, but the info that some women actually went through silversmith apprenticeships is some of the first evidence I've seen that they were doing the work in this trade. I've looked around a good deal for evidence that there were actually female planemakers, but I have yet to see anything conclusive. A number of women took over their husbands' businesses, but I have never seen anything definitive as to whether any of them actually made planes themselves. I don't doubt that this was possible, even probable. I'm just saying I haven't seen evidence of such. Anyone have any such info? I'd love to see some. John Quinn Santa Rosa ---- Start of Message 130283 (thread 50388) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 2004-03-08 07:54:07 Subject: RE: Distaff & the Trades John Quinn wrote: >... but the info that some women actually went through >silversmith apprenticeships is some of the first evidence I've seen that >they were doing the work in this trade. > I've looked around a good deal for evidence that there were >actually female planemakers, but I have yet to see anything conclusive. >A number of women took over their husbands' businesses, but I have never >seen anything definitive as to whether any of them actually made planes >themselves. The names of three women appear in the list of planemakers' apprentices, as compiled in Appendix 3 of W. L. Goodman's _British Planemakers from 1700_: Mary Fflight apprenticed to William Cogdell, London, June 7, 1743 Sarah Fflight apprenticed to John Jennion, London, August 9, 1743 Mehetaball Granford apprenticed to Thomas Granford [ii], London, 1716 Further research may well reveal additional names. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ++++ End of thread 50388 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50389 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130047 (thread 50389) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-03 18:00:55 Subject: Pewter rings On Wednesday, March 3, 2004, at 02:10 PM, Blake Ashley wrote: > How did you get those pewter rings on? They look great! > I learned this trick from Scott Grandstaff a couple of years ago. As he explained it to me: In the lathe, cut a groove in the wood about 1/4" wide and 1/4" deep. Use a couple of layers of masking tape around the groove, which will serve as the form for the liquid pewter you are going to pour in. Make a hole in the top of the tape. The masking tape will not burn when you pour in the pewter. Pewter is easy to melt with a propane torch and a tin can. I found that I like to make a small mouth out of putty around the hole in the tape so that when the liquid metal solidifies and shrinks there will be enough metal to file off and not be too low. You need to make the pewter ring about an eighth bigger in diameter than what you want it to finish at so you will have metal to cut down to size. I find that it is easy to make the groove in the wood too narrow, and this lets the pewter get bubbles in it which can't get out. You would think that molten pewter would burn the wood, but it doesn't. Let it cool by itself, no water! The solidified pewter cuts very easily with ordinary lathe tools. Scott has found a source for tin, which is what pewter actually is, at about $8 a pound. I keep an eye out for junk pewter at estate sales and fleas and get it for a lot less. You can also make inlays by undercutting the area the pewter will go into so it can't fall out. Then file it down and polish it. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130055 (thread 50389) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-03 22:14:46 Subject: Re: Pewter rings > Scott has found a source for tin, which is what pewter actually > is, at about $8 a pound. I keep an eye out for junk pewter at > estate sales and fleas and get it for a lot less. Jim, how does one identify 'pure' pewter at a flea market? I've got to try this. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130058 (thread 50389) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-03 19:35:32 Subject: Re: Pewter rings The pieces I have found were marked "Pewter" on the bottom. Actually I have to admit that if it isn't marked, I don't know how to identify it. My SWMBO can tell at a glance though, and I rely on her. Maybe somebody else can answer this better. On Wednesday, March 3, 2004, at 07:14 PM, Larry Marshall wrote: > >> Scott has found a source for tin, which is what pewter actually >> is, at about $8 a pound. I keep an eye out for junk pewter at >> estate sales and fleas and get it for a lot less. > > Jim, how does one identify 'pure' pewter at a flea market? I've got > to try this. > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130060 (thread 50389) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-03 22:48:16 Subject: Re: Pewter rings On March 3, 2004 10:35 pm, you wrote: > The pieces I have found were marked "Pewter" on the bottom. This would be a good indicator :-) > Actually I have to admit that if it isn't marked, I don't know > how to identify it. My SWMBO can tell at a glance though, and I > rely on her. Ah...a pewter sniffer in the family. My wife gets too bored with my rummaging through boxes of rust to go to flea markets with me :-) -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130061 (thread 50389) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-03 21:56:48 Subject: Re: Pewter rings It seems that every time I need materials that are hard to find, I go to http://www.mcmaster.com/ . They have Pewter along with the casting putty. Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Marshall" To: "oldtools" Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 7:14 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Pewter rings > > > Scott has found a source for tin, which is what pewter actually > > is, at about $8 a pound. I keep an eye out for junk pewter at > > estate sales and fleas and get it for a lot less. > > Jim, how does one identify 'pure' pewter at a flea market? I've got > to try this. > > -- > Cheers --- Larry Marshall > Quebec City, QC > http://www.woodnbits.com > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130094 (thread 50389) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-04 10:18:35 Subject: Re: Pewter rings Hi Larry & All, Larry asks how you identify junk pewter to melt down in the anteek shops. Unfortunately, I can tell you more about pewter than you probably want to know. Jim's answer was a very proper one - buy stuff that has "Pewter" stamped on the bottom. If it does not have that marking, it's quite possibly an older and more valuable piece that should be left for a collector. One of the oddities about pewter is that if it has that pewter marking, it isn't really (to many people) pewter; it's a variation called Britannia Metal made in the 1900s vs. earlier than that. But it will do fine for melt down purposes. Experts disagree to some extent, but the most common thinking is that "real" pewter is a mixture of tin and lead. Britannia metal has no lead; it has antimony instead. Very much like the change made to solder a few years back when the lead in it was replaced by antimony to avoid lead in the drinking water from the solder on pipe joints. Instead of melting down old "pewter", you can simply use solder - essentially the same thing but maybe mixed to be a bit softer than the "pewter" was. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130097 (thread 50389) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-04 10:47:18 Subject: Re: Pewter rings > anteek shops. Unfortunately, I can tell you more about pewter > than you probably want to know. This doesn't sound unfortunate from where I sit :-) > Jim's answer was a very proper > one - buy stuff that has "Pewter" stamped on the bottom. If it I like 'easy'. I'm best at mastering such skills. > oddities about pewter is that if it has that pewter marking, it > isn't really (to many people) pewter; it's a variation called > Britannia Metal made in the 1900s vs. earlier than that. But it > will do fine for melt down purposes. Interesting. > Experts disagree to some > extent, but the most common thinking is that "real" pewter is a > mixture of tin and lead. Britannia metal has no lead; it has > antimony instead. Ah...I'm not as dumb as I generally think I am. Last night I went to the McMaster-Carr site that Richard mentioned and found "lead-free pewter". That seemed counter to the definition of it that I knew. Thanks for clarifying this. > Instead of melting down old "pewter", you can simply use solder - > essentially the same thing but maybe mixed to be a bit softer > than the "pewter" was. Well, shazaam....might be worth a try. I feel edified. Thanks. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130101 (thread 50389) ---- From: "Bramel, Jim" Date: 2004-03-04 11:19:06 Subject: RE: Pewter rings I think I mentioned this before but - I used liquid solder=20 (from a tube). It was for a brace with the pewter rings=20 missing. The wood was wired on. I tightened the wire and=20 started squeezing the liquid solder on. I did it over a few=20 days, a layer at a time. When I finally got it on a little=20 above the wood, I started working it down. The only problem I had, was the solder kinda blended into the wood. I could have taken care of that at the start but didn't. I used=20 lacquer thinner and it took care of most of it. Jim =20 -----Original Message----- From: Larry Marshall [mailto:larry@w...]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 10:47 AM To: oldtools Subject: Re: [oldtools] Pewter rings you can simply use solder - ---- Start of Message 130103 (thread 50389) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-04 08:26:09 Subject: Re: Pewter rings Me, I just went on ebay and searched for pewter. This brings up lots of small hobby casting outfits but the radiator rebuilders offered it alot cheaper. It's all, like, 99% or more plain tin and some small additives like antimony, copper, etc. Different refiners use different recipes but the additives are so small I can't tell any difference. You could indeed use staybright or modern soft "silver" solder for plumbing, but the expense.......... The cast metal shrinks a bit when it cools so I build up the edges of the groove with a couple layers of tape first. Then, I lay a piece of greased twine (clothesline) in the groove before covering it with the masking tape. Don't stick the tape ends together but leave a bit of space. This is so you can pull the string out after you've built up at least a couple/three layers of tape on top of the string. Lately I've been building up cones of tape and drywall mud to form a small funnel for a pour spout. This gives you a bit more metal weight over the mold to push out a few more air bubbles (hate those bubbles). I also punch (or actually drill with an awl so's I don't crush the paper mold) a small air hole near the pour spout when the mud dries. Then tip it over a bit when pouring so the metal can flow around hitting the breather hole last. When I see metal peeking up through the hole I know it's made it. You want the metal pretty hot. Too cold and it won't flow well enough. I heat over a one burner propane camp stove (elegance, eh? 8^) for at least several minutes after it melts. If it scorches a toothpick right quick you're probably there. Graphite is supposed to help the metal flow better (George had better suggestions for pouring lube, but I couldn't find any of the stuff) so I'll pop a little squirt of it from a door lock lubricator tube just before I pour. I'm not sure it helps, but it doesn't hurt. Last thing you do before tipping the ladle is a quick skim of surface crud with a stick. I still haven't been able to get it to flow into fine detail crevices. Rings or anything large is pretty easy. But get it down small and there's always some trouble. Last thing I heard was to pre heat the handle (it's wood, so I figured maybe a couple hundred degrees tops) and I'm going to try that soon. I'll let you know. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130105 (thread 50389) ---- From: "Foster, Jim" Date: 2004-03-04 10:33:38 Subject: RE: Pewter rings Well, the question becomes, what is "pure?" Pewter has a lot of alloys over the years, with most of the ones used for foodstuffs being low lead, while some of the art alloys using quite a bit of lead as a = "filler."=20 You might want to try a good scrap metal yard. They may have some known alloy tin scrap. If I were making fish wackers I wouldn't care much = about the lead content, and would use any of the various alloys I have around = for bullet casting. If I were going to be handling it a lot, like for a = brace, I'd be more fussy.=20 Jim Foster A link to some pewter info: http://www.dmgovan.com/?page=3Dwhat_is >=20 >=20 > The pieces I have found were marked "Pewter" on the bottom. >=20 > Actually I have to admit that if it isn't marked, I don't=20 > know how to=20 > identify it. My SWMBO can tell at a glance though, and I rely on her. >=20 > Maybe somebody else can answer this better. >=20 > On Wednesday, March 3, 2004, at 07:14 PM, Larry Marshall wrote: >=20 > > > >> Scott has found a source for tin, which is what pewter actually > >> is, at about $8 a pound. I keep an eye out for junk pewter at > >> estate sales and fleas and get it for a lot less. > > > > Jim, how does one identify 'pure' pewter at a flea market? I've got > > to try this. > > > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA >=20 >=20 > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=3Doldtools >=20 ++++ End of thread 50389 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50390 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130049 (thread 50390) ---- From: "Chuck Zitur" Date: 2004-03-03 19:08:32 Subject: Lufkin 7146 Hi All Today I had a visit from a local antique dealer. He asked me to step out side as he had something for me in the back of his truck. There was a long hinged box marked "The Lufkin Rule Co. Saginaw Michigan" He flips open the box and inside is the largest ruler that I have ever seen. Eight feet long 3 inches wide about a 1/4 inch thick. Graudated in inches and increments of inches on both sides. Marked "Lufkin 7146" www.toolchuck.com/lufkin.jpg One end has the normal brass tip, the other has a brass tip with an upturned lip on one side as if to catch on something. The only Lufkin reference that I have doesn't list straight rulers at all. The box it is in is the original shipping container and had been shipped from Lufkin to an (unreadable) party in Lewistown, Montana. Now this is no great gloat pricewise although I didnt pay anything for it today. (I will gladly pay you Tuesday for an 8 foot rule today) (Wimpyism, Jeff) Can anyone tell me what this may have been used for? I thought maybe for surveying but the numbers are oriented the wrong way and the graduations seem too fine to be usable from a distance. Any ideas? Regards Chuck Zitur Billings, MT ---- Start of Message 130051 (thread 50390) ---- From: "Sanford Moss" Date: 2004-03-03 21:32:09 Subject: RE: Lufkin 7146 Hi Chuck & all, You said, " He flips open the >box and inside >is the largest ruler that I have ever seen. Eight feet long 3 inches wide >about a 1/4 inch >thick. Graudated in inches and increments of inches on both sides. Marked >"Lufkin 7146" >www.toolchuck.com/lufkin.jpg >One end has the normal brass tip, the other has a brass tip with an >upturned >lip >on one side as if to catch on something. The only Lufkin reference that I >have doesn't >list straight rulers at all. The box it is in is the original shipping >container and had been shipped >from Lufkin to an (unreadable) party in Lewistown, Montana. >Now this is no great gloat pricewise although I didnt pay anything for it >today. >(I will gladly pay you Tuesday for an 8 foot rule today) (Wimpyism, Jeff) >Can anyone tell me what this may have been used for? I thought maybe for >surveying but >the numbers are oriented the wrong way and the graduations seem too fine to >be >usable from a distance. >Any ideas? I have a 6 ft Lufkin rule downstairs that falls 2 feet short of yours, and is numbered 7125. Different from yours it is graduated in inches (to eighths on one side, and sixteenths on the other) in both directions on both sides. It is made of maple, and has standard brass tips on both ends. The lip on one end of yours suggests some sort of hook for grabbing an edge. I'm building a new house right now and the dry wall guys were working today, making me think yours might be a rule handy for people working with standard 8' lengths of wall board or plywood. Of course it also might be an official rule for measuring the height of NBA players, with the hook designed to fit over their (very rich) pin heads. Best regards, Sandy _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ---- Start of Message 130052 (thread 50390) ---- From: "Brian McInturff" Date: 2004-03-03 21:49:42 Subject: RE: Lufkin 7146 Maybe it was used in the paper or textile industry? Brian McInturff philatelist@e... > [Original Message] > From: Sanford Moss > To: oldtools > Date: 3/3/2004 9:33:30 PM > Subject: RE: [oldtools] Lufkin 7146 > > Hi Chuck & all, > > You said, " He flips open the > >box and inside > >is the largest ruler that I have ever seen. Eight feet long 3 inches wide > >about a 1/4 inch > >thick. Graudated in inches and increments of inches on both sides. Marked > >"Lufkin 7146" > >www.toolchuck.com/lufkin.jpg > >One end has the normal brass tip, the other has a brass tip with an > >upturned > >lip > >on one side as if to catch on something. The only Lufkin reference that I > >have doesn't > >list straight rulers at all. The box it is in is the original shipping > >container and had been shipped > >from Lufkin to an (unreadable) party in Lewistown, Montana. > >Now this is no great gloat pricewise although I didnt pay anything for it > >today. > >(I will gladly pay you Tuesday for an 8 foot rule today) (Wimpyism, Jeff) > >Can anyone tell me what this may have been used for? I thought maybe for > >surveying but > >the numbers are oriented the wrong way and the graduations seem too fine to > >be > >usable from a distance. > >Any ideas? > > I have a 6 ft Lufkin rule downstairs that falls 2 feet short of yours, and > is numbered 7125. Different from yours it is graduated in inches (to > eighths on one side, and sixteenths on the other) in both directions on both > sides. It is made of maple, and has standard brass tips on both ends. > > The lip on one end of yours suggests some sort of hook for grabbing an edge. > I'm building a new house right now and the dry wall guys were working > today, making me think yours might be a rule handy for people working with > standard 8' lengths of wall board or plywood. Of course it also might be an > official rule for measuring the height of NBA players, with the hook > designed to fit over their (very rich) pin heads. > > Best regards, > Sandy > > _________________________________________________________________ > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! > http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130059 (thread 50390) ---- From: Brian Pennington Date: 2004-03-04 05:48:39 Subject: Re: Lufkin 7146 At 04:08 AM 3/4/2004, Chuck Zitur wrote: >is the largest ruler that I have ever seen. Eight feet long 3 inches wide >about a 1/4 inch >thick. Graudated in inches and increments of inches on both sides. Marked >"Lufkin 7146" >www.toolchuck.com/lufkin.jpg Chuck and GGs, It is a glass cutter's rule which can be found in Lufkin's #11 General Catalog and was offered in nine sizes ranging from 36" to 144" ( just eight more to get a complete set). Online scans of this catalog can be found at: http://www.roseantiquetools.com/id96.html Best, Brian ---- Start of Message 130062 (thread 50390) ---- From: "Anthony Seo" Date: 2004-03-03 23:06:24 Subject: Re: Lufkin 7146 > hinged box marked "The Lufkin Rule Co. Saginaw Michigan" He flips open the > box and inside > is the largest ruler that I have ever seen. Eight feet long 3 inches wide > about a 1/4 inch > thick. Graudated in inches and increments of inches on both sides. Marked > "Lufkin 7146" Pretty much what I have been told, is that these larger Lufkin rules were either for glazier's or garment work. The hook at the end would lead me to believe that it is for glass work. FWIW Tony ---- Start of Message 130129 (thread 50390) ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-03-04 15:48:29 Subject: Re: Lufkin 7146 A while back Chuck Zitur found a long Lufkin: > Hi All > Today I had a visit from a local antique dealer. He asked me to step out > side as he had something for me in the back of his truck. There was a long > hinged box marked "The Lufkin Rule Co. Saginaw Michigan" He flips open the > box and inside > is the largest ruler that I have ever seen. Eight feet long 3 inches wide > about a 1/4 inch > thick. Graudated in inches and increments of inches on both sides. Marked > "Lufkin 7146" Chuck, I don't know how long Lufkin's largest rule was, but I have a Lufkin #7166 that is 12 feet long. It has two sections, and telescopes down to a little over 6 feet for storage. It was used to measure openings for installing things like kitchen cabinets. You slide it out until it touches cabinets (or other obstructions) at each end, and then read the distance at the center of the rule. Unfortunately, mine didn't come with a box. :-) Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ++++ End of thread 50390 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50391 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130057 (thread 50391) ---- From: Ted Shuck Date: 2004-03-03 21:27:00 Subject: RE: oldtools digest: March 02, 2004 At 08:29 PM 3/3/2004 +0000, Greg Peters wrote: >I was wondering if I could get some input on how a Galoot would make a >crisp shoulder cut(s) for a M & T joint? And Johnny Johnson replied: >I certainly wouldn't own up to doing it but - I expect a quick, accurate >way would be to use something like a Stanley #244 miter box. That's what I have done if I need really accurate shoulder cuts. I use my Stanley #358. I have had problems getting it adjusted well enough to do really accurate molding cuts with 3 - 4" moldings, but for a 1/2" tenon shoulder, it is pretty good. It makes it easy to align all four sides to get a nice continuous shoulder without steps. If anybody has any suggestions on tuning this miter box better for cutting miters for moldings, I'd love to hear them. Ted ++++ End of thread 50391 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50392 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130069 (thread 50392) ---- From: paul r morin Date: 2004-03-04 00:13:57 Subject: 71 Router Planes (and depth gages) Sorry that this is coming in late, I have around 4000 unread oldtools messages, so I've been spot perusing. I happened to go through part of the discussion on the 71 / o71 Router planes, and the comments about the depth gauges. I have a o71, and someone was kind enough to send me a copy of the manual(s) for both the Record and Stanley router planes. The version I have is one of the newer ones, with the arched throat. The depth stop with the shoe can be placed to basically turn it into a "closed mouth" router by setting the shoe level with the base. As for the depth gauge, I didn't quite understand the way to use if from the original discussion thread/post. I also couldn't quite figure it out just looking at it either - just not obvious to me I guess. BUT this made more sense to me: The depth gauge and shoe can be used in two ways: When detached from the router it forms a handy depth guage for testing, say, a series of blind mortices which is is desired shall be the same depth. To this case the shoe (which forms the stop) will be so atached that the thinner end of the guage can be inserted into the mortices (or similar holes or recesses). When used in conjuction with the router, the router is sen up asn an open-mouth router. The thin end of the gauge pointing downwards is then inserted into it's hole and pushed through until its end projects the desired depth below the sole. The shoe is then attached above the pillar, securing the shoe thumbscrew, but leaving thumbsrew M (the one on the plane body that holds it firmly in place) slack so that th gauge is free to move upwards. Whilst routering is being done, the shoe will not fall on to the pillar until the desired depth is reached. As soon as it touches the pillar, the worker will know that he has gone deep enough. If anyone has any interest in either set of scanned instructions, please ping me offline, and REMOVE OLDTOOLS from the subject, or it will be sorted into a folder along with the rest of the messages I can't get to at the moment. Hope this helps someone else. -- It is hard to fight against anger, for a man will buy revenge with his soul. - Heraclities, 500BC Paul R Morin Calgary, Alberta, Canada www.cranialstorage.com/wood ++++ End of thread 50392 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50393 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130070 (thread 50393) ---- From: paul r morin Date: 2004-03-04 00:24:43 Subject: 71 Router Planes (and depth gages) followup OAs a side note, stanley's manual says: Depth Guage Rod- this Rod, fastened by means of Thumb Screw, may be used to control the depth of each cut, preventing the Cutter from taking an excessive cut which would be inconvenient . For example, a cut 1/16" deep can be cut repeatedly while still allowing the Cutter to be set for the final depth of cut. One end of the Rod is of small diameter for following in a small groove. I assume that rather than move the blade (Record's suggestion) every time you make a cut until the depth stop hits, you would set the blade and move the depth gauge so it was continuously shorter and finally didn't make any contact. I think they're both finicky, frankly, but can imagine if you're trying to cut a curved dado, easier than chiseling perhaps. Just more info. > > If anyone has any interest in either set of scanned instructions, > please ping me offline, and REMOVE OLDTOOLS from the subject, or it > will be sorted into a folder along with the rest of the messages I > can't get to at the moment. > > Hope this helps someone else. > > > - -- It is hard to fight against anger, for a man will buy revenge with his soul. - Heraclities, 500BC Paul R Morin Calgary, Alberta, Canada www.cranialstorage.com/wood ---- Start of Message 130078 (thread 50393) ---- From: newworldmagic@c... Date: 2004-03-04 12:04:17 Subject: Re: 71 Router Planes (and depth gages) followup The method that I've always used is to set the blade to the final depth, set the depth gauge so control the size of the bite (thickness of shaving), then just worked the groove with the body of the plane at an angle. When you get to the right depth, the plane is sitting flat, which makes it easy to get nice clean bottoms. Until you get near the bottom of the groove, the cut can be a bit ragged, but Ialways pre-score the sides anyway, and once you've got a little bit of depth, the sides come out OK..... YMMV --JD > OAs a side note, stanley's manual says: > > Depth Guage Rod- this Rod, fastened by means of Thumb Screw, may be > used to control the depth of each cut, preventing the Cutter from > taking an excessive cut which would be inconvenient . For example, a > cut 1/16" deep can be cut repeatedly while still allowing the Cutter > to be set for the final depth of cut. One end of the Rod is of small > diameter for following in a small groove. > > I assume that rather than move the blade (Record's suggestion) every > time you make a cut until the depth stop hits, you would set the blade > and move the depth gauge so it was continuously shorter and finally > didn't make any contact. > > I think they're both finicky, frankly, but can imagine if you're > trying to cut a curved dado, easier than chiseling perhaps. > > Just more info. > > > > > If anyone has any interest in either set of scanned instructions, > > please ping me offline, and REMOVE OLDTOOLS from the subject, or it > > will be sorted into a folder along with the rest of the messages I > > can't get to at the moment. > > > > Hope this helps someone else. > > > > > > - > > > -- > It is hard to fight against anger, for a man will buy revenge with > his soul. > - Heraclities, 500BC > > > Paul R Morin Calgary, Alberta, Canada www.cranialstorage.com/wood > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To > unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130149 (thread 50393) ---- From: Darrell & Kathy Date: 2004-03-04 22:50:12 Subject: Re: 71 Router Planes (and depth gages) followup Paul said, regarding router planes, > I think they're both finicky, frankly, but can imagine if you're > trying to cut a curved dado, easier than chiseling perhaps. Yes, they do make it easier to clean up and deepen a curved groove or dado. I roughed this out with a brad point drill and a scribing gouge, followed by the router. http://www3.sympatico.ca/larchmont/walnut_sleigh_2.jpg -- Darrell Oakville ON Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User ++++ End of thread 50393 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50394 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130079 (thread 50394) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-04 07:44:01 Subject: cutting with modern handsaw > hadn't yet found flea markets...). TRIED to buy a decent used > saw at the local Borg. All they stocked were the $15-$30 > "disposable" panel saws, with teeth that were neither rip nor > crosscut. Thppt! It occurred to me that some of you might know how to use these saws. I don't. Now I realize that the best advise is to simply avoid them but a month or so ago I decided that my daughter needed a pint-sized saw of her own and since she isn't very skilled and isn't cutting precisely, I did the silly thing of buying one of those small borg saws, with the long pointy teeth. I gave it to her and she tried...really she did. She just couldn't cut any wood with it. So I tried and the results were nearly the same. It was more like scraping a slot than cutting one and it was nearly impossible to start the process. Anyone have any insight into how these saws are supposed to be used? As scraper blades? As paint canvases? Shims? > That's why. :) The differences are truly amazing. It's no wonder most people don't think you can cut anything without a circular saw. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130098 (thread 50394) ---- From: Kirk Eppler Date: 2004-03-04 08:00:58 Subject: Re: cutting with modern handsaw I have a Craftsman "quiksilver", which sound like what you mention, with Japanese style teeth. Great saw, cuts really fine, but not neccessarily speedy. Good multi purpose saw. Was able to hack off 4x4's faster than the neighbor could get his chainsaw to start. Slow to start, but really fine when you find the angle and rhythm it needs. If you've got some other "stamped" saw, where the teeth are simply stamped instead of sharpened, good luck. I got one with a cheapie miter box when doing a project for a friend who lived away from my tools. Bought a file, and sharpened it to reasonable in a few minutes, cut tons better, but did not compete with a Tom Law saw, or even a self sharpened Disston That'd be sacrilege, sending Tom a stamped saw. It'd probably cost lots to fix, since he'd probably throw it out and send you something else instead Larry Marshall wrote about Borg Saws: > It occurred to me that some of you might know how to use these saws. > I don't. Now I realize that the best advise is to simply avoid > them but a month or so ago I decided that my daughter needed a > pint-sized saw of her own and since she isn't very skilled and > isn't cutting precisely, I did the silly thing of buying one of those > small borg saws, with the long pointy teeth. -- Kirk Eppler Global Mfg Science and Technology Eppler.Kirk@g... ---- Start of Message 130116 (thread 50394) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-04 20:13:51 Subject: re: cutting with modern handsaw I would think that you could make a semi cutter out of one by fileing it yourself. Since most come with way too much set to begin with, you would more likely need to remove some set as opposed to adding any more. Worst case would be to completely joint the blade and recut new teeth. Of course yo'd still have a saw requiring too much set to be a long term user. My rec for a saw for the young lady would be to find one of the dozens of Disstons being nearly given away on e-bay every day. Find a short panel saw of appropriate length and file the teeth or cut new ones. This summer my two oldest grandkids, ages 6 and 7 will be doing "Summercamp" at our house and LOML has informed me that they will be making some bird houses/feeders under my tutelage. I've got a little panel saw I've fixed up that is gonna be the GK saw until they get big enough to heft a real one. We'll probably make some kid sized saw horses first so they have a place to work, then it is off to scrap bin for the pieces to make the houses/feeders. ---- Start of Message 130117 (thread 50394) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-04 15:44:10 Subject: Re: cutting with modern handsaw > My rec for a saw for the young lady would be to find one of the > dozens of Disstons being nearly given away on e-bay every day. > Find a short panel saw of appropriate length and file the teeth > or cut new ones. Clearly a good recommendation. I've steered clear of trying to buy saws on eBay, though, as my impression is that shipping costs on something that large (to Canada) would be high. Anyone know, roughly, how much it costs to ship a saw to another planet like Quebec City? So far, I've found one Disston saw here in Quebec City (a semi-modern D8) and I bought it. The pickings are slim here. I think I need to go hang out with Paul in Montreal :-) > be making some bird houses/feeders under my tutelage. I've got a > little panel saw I've fixed up that is gonna be the GK saw until Jerry, when you say "little", what do you mean? Did Disston make really short panel saws? All of the ones I've seen are 24-28". -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130118 (thread 50394) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-04 20:50:47 Subject: Re: cutting with modern handsaw I know they made some 22" saws in some models, and possibly shorter than that. Check out http://www.disstonianinstitute.com to find out more info. They've got pics from old Disston catalogs which list the sizes. I've had stuff shipped from Canada on a couple of occassions, a place up there has great prices on the woodturning accessories, all the way down here to Texas and still saved money over the price I would have had to pay for the same item here. ---- Start of Message 130127 (thread 50394) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-04 14:25:22 Subject: Re: cutting with modern handsaw They made D7's, 8's and 12's in 16" and maybe 14". D8's in 14" for sure. But these are definitely worthless "toy" saws and must be stringently avoided like the plague. In fact, they are practically dangerous as they'll pollute your very collection! Never buy one or even let yourself accidentally have any respect for such. Especially the nibbed varieties. This is the way it's been since old tool accumulating began and should always be so. As bad as Disston is, the other makers and even the hardware store brands are even worse. Most especially the ones with elaborate etching and carved apple totes. Nobody likes these little saws. Never have. They are an affront to good saws everywhere by their very existence. 'Course, being a generous soul, I'll grudgingly assume the burden of making sure they don't disturb the general population That's box 409, Happy Camp. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130182 (thread 50394) ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-03-05 09:42:07 Subject: Re: cutting with modern handsaw Scott, You know, if you posted a few pictures, of said flagrant violations of saw art, us yunguns would know exactly what we should be acquir.....ah.....avoiding. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot > > They made D7's, 8's and 12's in 16" and maybe 14". D8's in 14" for sure. > But these are definitely worthless "toy" saws and must be stringently > avoided like the plague. In fact, they are practically dangerous as > they'll pollute your very collection! Never buy one or even let yourself > accidentally have any respect for such. Especially the nibbed varieties. > This is the way it's been since old tool accumulating began and should > always be so. > As bad as Disston is, the other makers and even the hardware store > brands are even worse. Most especially the ones with elaborate etching > and carved apple totes. > Nobody likes these little saws. Never have. They are an affront to > good saws everywhere by their very existence. > 'Course, being a generous soul, I'll grudgingly assume the burden of > making sure they don't disturb the general population > That's box 409, Happy Camp. > yours, Scott > -- > Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: > http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html > PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 130228 (thread 50394) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-06 12:29:11 Subject: Re: cutting with modern handsaw Larry writes : > I've steered clear of trying to buy > saws on eBay, though, as my impression is that shipping > costs on something that large (to Canada) would be high. > Anyone know, roughly, how much it costs to ship a saw to > another planet like Quebec City? The best way to calculate shipping is to go the USPS calculator at : http://ircalc.usps.gov/ That way you can specify which way you want to an American seller. I haven't found shipping to be overly expensive. Also if it's valued at less than 20$US or so it will fly through customs without stopping. That said, I've only bought one saw off ebay and it's probably the only one I have that is kinked. Before bidding I told the seller that I wanted to use it, and to do so it had to be perfectly straight. The reply was that it was so I bought it, only to find out it's not straight at all (and it didn't happen through shipping). Paul Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130286 (thread 50394) ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-03-08 09:16:57 Subject: Re: cutting with modern handsaw Scott said > > > > They made D7's, 8's and 12's in 16" and maybe 14". D8's in 14" for sure. >> But these are definitely worthless "toy" saws and must be stringently >> avoided like the plague. In fact, they are practically dangerous as > > they'll pollute your very collection! > > As bad as Disston is, the other makers and even the hardware store >> brands are even worse. Most especially the ones with elaborate etching >> and carved apple totes. >> Nobody likes these little saws. Never have. They are an affront to >> good saws everywhere by their very existence. >> 'Course, being a generous soul, I'll grudgingly assume the burden of >> making sure they don't disturb the general population >> That's box 409, Happy Camp. > > yours, Scott To which I will add --- Scott if you find that too many of these horrible beasts land on your stoop and you are too repulsed to even touch them -- carefully wrap them in brown wrap, place them in a 18 inch box marked US postal, pay the rate and send them to Rex Wood Werks care of John and he will find a way to displa ..... dispose of the offensive lot ;-). --John R. Wilson That's (Madison, WI. street address is; 11 Mondale Ct. and the zip is 53705) ++++ End of thread 50394 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50395 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130080 (thread 50395) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-04 07:45:01 Subject: Fwd: Re: [oldtools] Scary Sharpening > assistance. Plus for most people the hollow grinding you advocate > at finer grits involve buying a $200+ Tormek grinding m*ch*ne > which just isn't practical, particularly for a beginner. I'll bet John, any old rotating grindstone will permit hollow grinding. I use either my cheap, turns too fast electron-burner or my hand-cranked grinder that I bought for $5. > And for a beginner sharpener the most confusing thing is to be > set back by having too much information. Not all of sharpening is For some beginners possibly but we all make the mistake that everyone is like us. For instance, when I want to learn something I try to get as much information and as many opinions as I can possibly find. It'll take a long time to do the tests, learn the technique, but at least I know the solutiong cloud of possibilities. > Odd method of sharpening but I could see how it works for you if > you have a tailed apprentice doing the majority of the hollow Odd that you'd call hollow-grinding 'odd' as it seems to me that it's quite common and recommended by many. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ++++ End of thread 50395 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50396 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130085 (thread 50396) ---- From: "Doug" Date: 2004-03-04 07:33:53 Subject: RE: Bowsaws Dear Galoots, I've been reading the thread on the use of Bow and turning saws, and wanted to share my limited experience. I have three bowsaws that I made about 2 years ago. The large has pretty slim parts, along the lines of BugBear's design (except nowhere near as elegant) and takes a 26" blade, the second has a much stockier frame (in keeping with Texas' consistently high marks in having some of the "fattest" US cities) and takes a 12", the third is also stout, and takes standard coping saw blades. Of the three, the smallest sees use for removing dovetail waste all the time. The stouter arms and thick stretcher are not much to look at, but they provide a good foundation for a very high degree of tension and a heavier (and for me, more comfortable) feel. Ralph mentioned that high tension is important--I have found that high tension is crucial for crisp results. Also, with the small and middle sized versions, I cut almost exclusively on the push stroke, with the blade parallel to the floor. The biggy doesn't tension up that well, and so this one is used in the more traditional manner. Not surprisingly, the high tension makes for a short but exciting life for the coping saw blades--makes it kind of interesting when the bust in the middle of a cut (a little blast of adrenaline is not such a bad thing!). I have never used a good fret saw as Jeff has suggested--but I will say that the traditional coping saws that I have used are no comparison to the "fatty" texas bowsaw here in my shop. Best, Doug Brozovic Denton Texas ++++ End of thread 50396 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50397 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130086 (thread 50397) ---- From: "Doug" Date: 2004-03-04 07:41:12 Subject: a host for some pictures Dear Galoots, I read a while ago that there were generous galoots willing to "host" some pics for sharing with the porch. I would be grateful if a host would e-mail me directly in this regard. Thanks Doug Brozovic Denton Texas ++++ End of thread 50397 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50398 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130092 (thread 50398) ---- From: "Robert Fortier" Date: 2004-03-04 09:22:07 Subject: RE: Scary Sharpening (a low cost jig description) Here is how I did it, for those who are interested in the scary sharp. Instead of buying the Veritas roller, or other for that matter, I made mine using 2 piece of wood, 6 x 1 x 3/4, screwed together in a way that I can clamp blades, or chisel between them. Then I took 2 roller blade (in line skate) bearing, or skateboard bearing, and I screwed them at the tip of the lower piece of wood. These are my wheels, and being 6 inch apart keep them out of the strip of sandpaper. My 2 cents Bob in Sherbrooke, Province of Quebec -----Message d'origine----- De : John Sawchak [mailto:jherbs@e...] Envoye : 4 mars, 2004 09:10 A : oldtools Objet : RE: [oldtools] Scary Sharpening I think the stone wear is the issue there so maybe it is a non issue using the sandpaper since the flatness is provided by the glass backing. Say, I did recheck out your site again last night and I was a bit surprised to read you had freehand sharpened for forty years and decided jigs were better. I am curious as to the details of what you noticed that made you convert. I've been thinking about making one of those roller type jigs up. I also noticed a detail in your sharpening notes that mentioned some difficulty with getting the edge square (or was it rounding off the corners?)... anyway I have suggestion that might correct that. I'm thinking that narrow roller is the culprit. What about using double rollers on the jig that would provide a wider base? A wider frame of reference, if you will. Think of the stability a sports car gets by being low and wide. The other correction possibility would be to use a long roller to get the same wide base. Only with this design the piece of the honing jig going over the stone might have to be lengthened. Actually if you make it long enough to accommodate real long pieces it could double for chisel handle clearance as well. And I also found myself wondering why, if it worked so well, hadn't you just adapted the design to use with chisels? A separate honing jig for chisels. The easiest here would seem to be under mounting the chisel to the clamp because the back of the bevel is always flat but the angles on the face of a chisel can vary greatly depending on its type. Naturally there would have to be a hole in the jig to accommodate the chisel handle. > : The only thing > : I wonder about is if I would need to add some way of making a > : slight figure > : 8 motion? > > The figure of eight motion is something that has been passed around for > donkey's years, but what is its justification, I wonder? > I suppose that it produces a distinctive pattern of stone wear, but is > this beneficial? > > Jeff > -- > Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK > Email: amgron@c... > http://www.amgron.clara.net > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ++++ End of thread 50398 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50399 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130093 (thread 50399) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-04 14:12:46 Subject: Eagle Medallion Question A while back I got a Jackson Backsaw via e-bay. Has the Warranted Superior Eagle Medallion. A Jennings back saw came available real cheap recently on e-bay and I got it. This one has a much wider and thicker back than I have seen on any of my Disston made backsaws. It also has the Warranted Superior Eagle Medallion. It was my belief that these were Disston Medallions put onto their secondary lines and saws manufactured for other brands. Is this medallion something that was added by someone along the line; were Jenning's saws made by Disston; or what is the story here? The handle seems to have been made to accept this medallion, or at least one of the same size. I am SO confused, of course that isnot an unusual state of mind for me. The back on that saw is so different from the other Disstons that I would think this would be a totally different set-up for manufacturing. ---- Start of Message 130143 (thread 50399) ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-03-04 22:23:04 Subject: Re: Eagle Medallion Question >It was my belief that these were Disston Medallions put onto their secondary lines >and saws manufactured for other brands. Is this medallion something that was >added by someone along the line; were Jenning's saws made by Disston; or what >is the story here? Perhaps I am remembering incorrectly, but I vaguely recall reading somewhere that Disston also sold these Warrented Superior medallions to other saw makers. I have limitted experience, but it does not seem incredibly unusual to find them on non-Disston saws. For example, the saw shown below (believed to be British - and the subject of the first post I ever made to the list) also has one. http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/duncansaw.jpg Anyone have any more info? Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 130147 (thread 50399) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-04 21:45:42 Subject: Re: Eagle Medallion Question Bruce: I believe you will find your answers here . . . http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/MedallionPage.html . Click on Medallions. and scroll down to the bottom. Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Love" To: "oldtools" Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Eagle Medallion Question > >It was my belief that these were Disston Medallions put onto their secondary > lines > >and saws manufactured for other brands. Is this medallion something that was > >added by someone along the line; were Jenning's saws made by Disston; or what > >is the story here? > > > Perhaps I am remembering incorrectly, but I vaguely recall reading somewhere > that > Disston also sold these Warrented Superior medallions to other saw makers. I > have limitted experience, but it does not seem incredibly unusual to find them > on > non-Disston saws. > > For example, the saw shown below (believed to be British - and the subject of > the > first post I ever made to the list) also has one. > > http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/duncansaw.jpg > > > Anyone have any more info? > > > Bruce Love > Pipersville, PA > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ++++ End of thread 50399 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50400 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130095 (thread 50400) ---- From: Zwwizard@n... (Richard) Date: 2004-03-04 10:44:53 Subject: Old Forge Thanks I would like to thank all of you that replied to my questions on the Forges. The O & C one is set up and was fired up yesterday. Works fine, I am going to build up my left arm. :>)) The smaller one has been sold already. -- Richard, Richard L. Rombold WIZARD WOODWORKING 489 N. 32nd. St. Springfield, Or .97478 http://www.PictureTrail.com/gallery/view?username=thewizz "Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup" __________________________________________________________________ New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp ++++ End of thread 50400 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50401 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130096 (thread 50401) ---- From: "Lawrence H. Smith" Date: 2004-03-04 10:47:53 Subject: Heading to Western Illinois I'll be heading from SW VT/NW MA out to Western Illinois (Macomb, specifically) in about a week and a half to do some fixing up at my MIL's place, and collect some furniture. A few questions: Anyone need anything hauled from here out there? The truck will be empty heading that way, unless... Does anyone out that way have Osage Orange aka Bodark aka Bois d'Arc aka Hedge or Black Locust or Black Walnut they'd like to trade for some Vermont Spalted (or non-spalted) Maple (pretty green). I can put in log sections as well as boards, fellow lathe persons. Will stick to 8 foot and under boards, as I don't want to run 1000 miles with an open tailgate. Don't know that I'll have a lot of free time, and with the price of gas and the way the truck sucks it, I don't expect I'll go too far out of the way, but are there any old-tool-mecca's I should know about? Any local galoots I should visit? I can't seem to find any in the archives, though I do get a lot of Mr. Heyza (thanks again for the shirt!) in Macomb ...Michigan. -- -Lawrence H Smith, Librarian/Computarian for Buxton School and Woodworker -lsmith@s... Cats, Coffee, Chocolate... Vices to live by. ++++ End of thread 50401 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50402 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130099 (thread 50402) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-03-04 11:03:39 Subject: "Tap-hole Maple" [was: Heading to Western Illinois] Lawrence H. Smith wrote: >Does anyone out that way have Osage Orange aka Bodark aka Bois d'Arc aka >Hedge or Black Locust or Black Walnut they'd like to trade for some >Vermont Spalted (or non-spalted) Maple (pretty green). As an Vermont/maple-(vaguely)related aside: Last time I was at my local wood-dealer's, she had a pile labelled "Tap-hole Maple". Seems it's maple from trees that have been tapped with the spiggots used for collecting sap for maple syrup (known in these parts as "sugaring"). Turns out it's rather popular with the rustic-renovation set. What's that they say about the a feature being merely a bug with the proper documentation? N ++++ End of thread 50402 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50403 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130104 (thread 50403) ---- From: "Doug" Date: 2004-03-04 10:24:29 Subject: some pictures Dear Galoots, first, thanks to those who responded to my request for a picture repository. Jim Esten has me set up, and so here they are: The Texas Fatty Bowsaws may be seen at http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=383 In keeping with a recent thread on rehandling chisels with leather washers, here are a set of Greenlee butt chisels that I did in December of 2002, I think. The handles were turned on the trustly bungee lathe. The tool roll is courtesy of my wife Patou--she is far too supportive and massively "galoot friendly" to refer to as SWMBO (she actually points out estate sales!) http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=384 Finally, here is a set of dovetail chisels made from old files--tempered in the oven. These are the prototypes that will become the backbone of my "Twenty-to-Life Tools" line. http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=385 Thanks again to Jim for the space. Best Doug Brozovic Denton, Texas ++++ End of thread 50403 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50404 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130107 (thread 50404) ---- From: Chuck Taylor Date: 2004-03-04 09:33:10 Subject: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup (PICS) Esteemed Galootish Gentlefolk, A few weeks ago I reported that I had purchased an old rusty Stanley Bedrock 605 (cast iron jack plane, Jeff) for $20 US and I promised to eventually post some pictures. It turned out to be a Type 3 (1900-1908) with a Type 6 lever cap and a WW2-era "Victory Made in USA" iron and chipbreaker. The sole was particularly rusty: http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=374 Disassembly was a bit of chore; I ended up having to soak the frog and top of the bed in diesel fuel for a few days, then I used a brace and screwdriver bit to loosen the frog adjustment screw. I needed the brace to loosen some of the other screws too. I decided to give the zap tank a try. I used a plastic bucket, some "Oxy Wash" from the grocery store (sodium percarbonate and sodium carbonate) because I couldn't find pure "washing soda". I used a 10-cent stainless steel table knife from a thrift store for the anode, and an old 6-amp battery charger. I dried things in an oven after zapping. Here's how the sole came out: http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=379 Never having used the zap tank treatment before, I was amazed. Once the rust on the sole and sides of the bed were softened, a razor blade made short work of it. I didn't zap the frog or the lever cap. You can get an idea of how the iron and chipbreaker looked from this photo: http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=375 Here is how they came out after a session in the zap tank: http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=377 I still wasn't satisfied, as there was a lot of pitting on the back of the cutting iron. I decided that some further effort was needed. (My technique will not be disclosed, but thanks to fellow galoot Vlad Spehar for an assist.) http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=382 The wood was good, but there was a chunk broken out of one cheek (still is). Here are a couple of other pictures: Before: http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=376 http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=372 After: http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=381 http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=378 I should mention that this plane is 13-1/2 inches long, about 1/2 an inch shorter than the more-modern Stanley jack planes. Thanks to Jim Esten of Galoot Image Central for hosting the pictures, and my apologies for the quality of the photography. The photos do not due justice to how well the tote came out. Except for the iron and chipbreaker :-), I tried to heed Todd Hughes' oft-stated advice to avoid the "over-cleaned" look. The sole and sides of the bed came out feeling as smooth as glass. I am happy with the results. Thanks to all of you galoots for the encouragement and the tips over the years that made this possible. With best galootish regards, Chuck Taylor Everett, WA, USA __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---- Start of Message 130119 (thread 50404) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-04 15:27:19 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup (PICS) Chuck; I for one would like to hear the deep dark secrets used to unpit the cutting iron. I have a very badly pitted iron from a #8 that I'd like to deal with. You can tell us . . . we won't tell anyone. Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana From: "Chuck Taylor" > > I still wasn't satisfied, as there was a lot of > pitting on the back of the cutting iron. I > decided that some further effort was needed. (My > technique will not be disclosed, but thanks to > fellow galoot Vlad Spehar for an assist.) > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130120 (thread 50404) ---- From: Johnny Johnson Date: 2004-03-04 16:32:47 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup (PICS) At 03:27 PM 3/4/2004 -0800, Richard J. Hucker wrote: >Chuck; >I for one would like to hear the deep dark secrets used to unpit the cutting >iron. I have a very badly pitted iron from a #8 that I'd like to deal with. >You can tell us . . . we won't tell anyone. Hey Huck, I think it involves sending money off to someone to purchase a new one. Later, Johnny __________________________ Johnny Johnson Lilburn, GA mailto:jjohnso4@c... ---- Start of Message 130123 (thread 50404) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-04 13:46:18 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup (PICS) On Thursday, March 4, 2004, at 03:27 PM, Richard J. Hucker wrote: > I for one would like to hear the deep dark secrets used to unpit the > cutting > iron. I have a very badly pitted iron from a #8 that I'd like to deal > with. I recently wrote in to the list about this very problem. I have 2 #8 planes and I back beveled the worst blade 5 degrees. That eliminated the necessity of polishing the pitted back. And after setting them both up the same way, I was not able to tell any difference in the quality of the cut or the amount of effort required to push the plane on the same board. I will never chase after those stinking pits again. Just back bevel and be done with it. I don't know yet if this will hold true for smaller planes, but as soon as I can I will find out. I have 2 6's and 2 4's to play with. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130124 (thread 50404) ---- From: Chuck Taylor Date: 2004-03-04 14:08:09 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup (PICS) Sheesh! Can't get away with anything around you guys! Johnny is on to my "secret". If you look closely at http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=382 You may notice the "STW" logo on the iron. That stands for "Spehar Tool Works". I'm sure Vlad would be happy to help you out too, Huck. :-) Or maybe Reverend Ron.... Chuck Taylor > At 03:27 PM 3/4/2004 -0800, Richard J. Hucker wrote: > > >I for one would like to hear the deep dark secrets > used to unpit the cutting > >iron. I have a very badly pitted iron from a #8 > that I'd like to deal with. > >You can tell us . . . we won't tell anyone. --- Johnny Johnson wrote: > Hey Huck, > > I think it involves sending money off to someone to > purchase a new one. > > Later, > Johnny > __________________________ > Johnny Johnson > Lilburn, GA > mailto:jjohnso4@c... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---- Start of Message 130164 (thread 50404) ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-03-05 08:54:57 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup (PICS) Chuck Taylor wrote: > Sheesh! Can't get away with anything around you guys! > Johnny is on to my "secret". If you look closely at > > http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=382 > > You may notice the "STW" logo on the iron. Hate to nit-pick, but you said "logo on(sic) the iron" Loking at the picture, I think you meant "logo THROUGH the iron" geez, Vlad - did ya' get some cheap time on a spark-eroder? BugBear ---- Start of Message 130193 (thread 50404) ---- From: vladimir spehar Date: 2004-03-05 08:42:43 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup (PICS) Sure did! At N/C too. Vlad --- bugbear wrote: > Chuck Taylor wrote: > > Sheesh! Can't get away with anything around you > guys! > > Johnny is on to my "secret". If you look closely > at > > > > > http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=382 > > > > You may notice the "STW" logo on the iron. > > Hate to nit-pick, but you said "logo on(sic) the > iron" > > Loking at the picture, I think you meant > "logo THROUGH the iron" > > geez, Vlad - did ya' get some cheap time on a > spark-eroder? > > BugBear > > > Archive: > http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web > interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ===== Cheers. Vladimir (Vlad) Spehar Spehar ToolWorks. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ++++ End of thread 50404 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50405 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130108 (thread 50405) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-04 10:17:45 Subject: New Pewter Rings I'm having a tough day getting a decent picture here, Galoots. Its' cloudy which is enough to keep the flash from going off, but not quite bright enough for a good pic. Well, anyway, here's a few of the latest. These are butt gouges and chisels. Have I ever mentioned the small toolbox of custom homemade tools? I'll never live to see it finished, but I keep plugging away on it anyhow. Each of these has some minor imperfection someplace you can't see in the pix. Oh yeah, like I didn't learn nuthin' from Hef? 8^) http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/buttring3.jpg yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130113 (thread 50405) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-04 11:55:09 Subject: Re: New Pewter Rings On Thursday, March 4, 2004, at 10:17 AM, scott grandstaff wrote: > Well, anyway, here's a few of the latest. These are butt gouges and > chisels. Have I ever mentioned the small toolbox of custom homemade > tools? I'll never live to see it finished, but I keep plugging away > on it anyhow. Each of these has some minor imperfection someplace > you can't see in the pix. Oh yeah, like I didn't learn nuthin' from > Hef? 8^) > http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/buttring3.jpg > Every time I think I have really done something special, Scott posts pictures that make me feel inadequate. I wish I had that kind of talent. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130114 (thread 50405) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-04 12:01:55 Subject: Re: New Pewter Rings Oh yeah Like I could ever carve like you do!! Or weld with such precision, or or or. And just think of the volume of gorgeous stuff rolling nonstop out of your shop! My stuff is only once in a while. You leave me in the dust. yours, Scott > > Every time I think I have really done something special, Scott posts > pictures that make me feel inadequate. I wish I had that kind of talent. > > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA > > -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130121 (thread 50405) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-04 15:40:32 Subject: Re: New Pewter Rings > Oh yeah > Like I could ever carve like you do!! Or weld with such precision, or > or or. And just think of the volume of gorgeous stuff rolling nonstop > out of your shop! My stuff is only once in a while. You leave me in the > dust. > yours, Scott > > > Every time I think I have really done something special, Scott posts > > pictures that make me feel inadequate. I wish I had that kind of talent. > > > > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA > > Both of you fellows are really funny. It was just a couple of weeks ago about half of the Galoots were admitting that they can't cut on a straight line because one hand doesn't know what the other one is doing. Or perhaps it was the lack of having ambidextrous eyes. Fleming, Einstein and Tesla were all ambidextrous. Benjamin Franklin was also ambidextrous and signed the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution with his left hand. US president James Garfield was a well-educated backwoodsman born in a log cabin. Although he could write with either hand with equal ease, he could also write Greek with his left hand and Latin with his right hand simultaneously. Harry Kahne demonstrated his mental dexterity in 1922 by performing several mental operations simultaneously. While one hand was writing mirror language, the other hand intermingled upside down and backwards letters. Many musical instruments are played ambidextrously, and many athletes are adept at using both of their hands. Since swimming is an ambidextrous activity, teaching dyslectic children to swim often helps them to read and write normally because it balances the brain hemispheres. Become ambidextrous and along with an added physiological brain growth, a more balanced integration of your 2 hemispheres will be achieved. Studies have shown that ambidextrous people are more emotionally independent, more determined, more adaptable to new situations and more apt to handle problems without giving up. Michelangelo was a multi-faceted genius like Leonardo da Vinci. He often painted with both hands. When one got tired, he switched to the other. British artist Sir Edwin Landseer could draw with both hands simultaneously - a horse's head with one hand and a stag's head with the other. He taught drawing and etching to Queen Victoria who was a lefty that became ambidextrous. Most of us wish we had just of a bit of the talent you two have. Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130157 (thread 50405) ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-03-05 02:36:51 Subject: Re: New Pewter Rings > I'm having a tough day getting a decent picture here, Galoots. > Its' cloudy which is enough to keep the flash from going off, but not > quite bright enough for a good pic. > Well, anyway, here's a few of the latest. These are butt gouges and > chisels. Have I ever mentioned the small toolbox of custom homemade > tools? I'll never live to see it finished, but I keep plugging away on > it anyhow. > Each of these has some minor imperfection someplace you can't see > in the pix. Oh yeah, like I didn't learn nuthin' from Hef? 8^) > http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/buttring3.jpg > yours, Scott Scott, I popped that picture up, and went 'wow'. You and Jim talked me into making some pewter ringed items last year, and I thought I was doing some pretty nice work. You just burst the bubble on that little self-delusion!! Nice, very nice. Charlie Driggs Newark DE ---- Start of Message 130181 (thread 50405) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-05 06:57:14 Subject: RE: New Pewter Rings Nice work, Scott! > http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/buttring3.jpg > yours, Scott > -- > Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: > http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html I don't know if this is relevant or not but I will just throw it out there. All this metallurgical discussion about pewter and possible replacements for it remind me of some unusual alloys I read about in a 1950s chemical magic book I had. In this book they give several formulas for making metal alloys that will melt with just body heat like being held in the hand. Now I make no guarantees I can actually find the book again but if anybody thinks it might help I can do some digging. I would think one could use the info towards making their own alloy that melts above body heat but could be an easier, and maybe less expensive, replacement for pewter. It had more than one formula. ++++ End of thread 50405 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50406 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130110 (thread 50406) ---- From: "Jim Cook" Date: 2004-03-04 13:43:20 Subject: Galoots in Atlanta? Hi all you Southern Galoots, I've now done my pennance in Coudersport PA, where the only oldtool I found was a diseased wooden jointer with splits, a short cutter, and a wide open mouth, the wrong wedge, and a slight twist to boot - all for the princely sum of $55. Sorry, it had to stay there on the antique store floor. I'm now getting sent to Atlanta, GA for possibly up to five months, and would be really happy to connect with some of you TFOTS (Tool Fiends of the South). I'll be able to go home for weekends and commune with the metal objects in my basement, but somehow it's just not the same as slipping downstairs to make a shaving or two before supper, and I know I'm going to miss them (the shavings that is, not supper; I never miss supper). I'll miss my family of course, but that's another story. Jim Jim Cook Newton, MA ++++ End of thread 50406 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50407 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130111 (thread 50407) ---- From: "Marcus Sly" Date: 2004-03-04 19:16:39 Subject: Marking up panels Hello Galoots, One day I hope to contribute more to the porch than a load of newbie questions, but in the mean time, here's another one. I'm making a tool chest, which is going to be based atround a dovetailed box 2' x 1'6" x 2'. Should give me lots of chance to practice my dovetails..... I'm thinking about how to mark up the panels for the box. How do I make mark the ends square when the biggest square I can find is only 12" long? I am planning to mark a line twelve inches long and extend it with a rule. Is this the best way? On similar lines, how do I checkthat the end of the panel is dead square before marking round it with a cutting gauge for the dovetails? Thanks Marcus, ---- Start of Message 130112 (thread 50407) ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-03-04 19:30:20 Subject: Re: Marking up panels Marcus's toolbox building. . . > How do I mark the ends square when the biggest square I can find is only 12" long=3F The Bootstrap Galoot, he says. . . . First make yourself a large square. From wood. It's what the old time chaps did. If you use the famous formula for right angle triangles of 3,4,5 ration sides, then you can mark up the end of your boards directly by measuring off the hypotenuse and striking a line from the end of the board, or first make the square - using the formula to ensure accuracy. Or cut an accurate set square triangle from sheet goods (Always useful in future) - If you add a stock on one edge, then behold, you have a homemade square again. And then, always consider that you may not be seeking squareness, but merely that the two sides or ends match. Even when working with highly accurate instruments, its always worth marking out pairs from each other. I'd always say that a box needs to be square, but if the top was a touch wider than the bottom, why, it won't affect its function, and it proves it to be hand made. (also lets the tills slide easier - if you have some) Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 130122 (thread 50407) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-04 16:55:20 Subject: Re: Marking up panels Sorry about the bad ascii artwork /| / | / | / | 5' / | / | 4' / | / | /________|45deg. 3' >First make yourself a large square. From wood. It's what the old time >chaps did. > >If you use the famous formula for right angle triangles of 3,4,5 ration >sides, then you can mark up the end of your boards directly by measuring >off the hypotenuse and striking a line from the end of the board, or first >make the square - using the formula to ensure accuracy. ---- Start of Message 130128 (thread 50407) ---- From: David Dougherty Date: 2004-03-04 14:34:24 Subject: Re: Marking up panels Er... that should be 90deg, not 45deg. Jonathan Peck wrote:Sorry about the bad ascii artwork /| / | / | / | 5' / | / | 4' / | / | /________|45deg. 3' >First make yourself a large square. From wood. It's what the old time >chaps did. > >If you use the famous formula for right angle triangles of 3,4,5 ration >sides, then you can mark up the end of your boards directly by measuring >off the hypotenuse and striking a line from the end of the board, or first >make the square - using the formula to ensure accuracy. Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ===== -- David W. Dougherty, Maker and Proprietor DWD Violins and String Instrument Repair __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130130 (thread 50407) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-04 18:05:56 Subject: Re: Marking up panels Hmmmm. That could explain why the ends of my boards look like miters..doink!! Funny the last time I posted on this subject, I called it the old 4,5,6. Perhaps it's time for a beverage...or several. The kind best served at a crisp 45 deg.F in a frosty 8 oz. mug with good company and familiar music on the jukebox.. >Er... that should be 90deg, not 45deg. > >Jonathan Peck wrote:Sorry about the >bad ascii artwork > > >/| >/ | >/ | >/ | >5' / | >/ | 4' >/ | >/ | >/________|45deg. > >3' > >>First make yourself a large square. From wood. It's >what the old >time >>chaps did. >> >>If you use the famous formula for right angle >triangles of 3,4,5 >ration >>sides, then you can mark up the end of your boards >directly by >measuring >>off the hypotenuse and striking a line from the end >of the board, >or first >>make the square - using the formula to ensure >accuracy. ---- Start of Message 130163 (thread 50407) ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-03-05 08:51:34 Subject: Re: Marking up panels Marcus Sly wrote: > Hello Galoots, > > One day I hope to contribute more to the porch than a load of newbie > questions, but in the mean time, here's another one. > > I'm making a tool chest, which is going to be based atround a > dovetailed box 2' x 1'6" x 2'. Should give me lots of chance to > practice my dovetails..... > > I'm thinking about how to mark up the panels for the box. How do I > make mark the ends square when the biggest square I can find is only > 12" long? I am planning to mark a line twelve inches long and extend > it with a rule. Is this the best way? In your circumstances, yes. I long ago picked up a draughsmens T-square (in the age od CAD, these go very cheap) that allows me to mark out full size sheet goods :-) > > On similar lines, how do I checkthat the end of the panel is > dead square Shooting board, or just plane carefully to your lines. If you choose to plane from both ends, and check with a square, be careful to always reference from your face edge - your 2 long sides may (or may not) be dead parallel. > before marking round it with a cutting gauge for the dovetails? Be careful. A sharp cutting guage can cut deep enough to weaken the joint. http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_i- d=103919&submit_thread=1#message I mark with a pencil gauge, then layout the pins/tails *THEN* go over the base of the waste with a cutting gauge, trying as far as possible not to gauge the good wood. I cut pretty deep when I do this, resulting in not only a clear mark in which to place my chisel for final paring, but a good start to the cutting process itself. Finally, to avoid the horrid balancing act involved in marking one board from the other, especially with large pieces, here's a GREAT tip: http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tour.html#dovetail_marking BugBear ---- Start of Message 130192 (thread 50407) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-03-05 08:40:15 Subject: Re: Marking up panels On 5 Mar 2004 at 8:51, bugbear wrote: > In your circumstances, yes. I long ago picked up a draughsmens > T-square (in the age od CAD, these go very cheap) that allows > me to mark out full size sheet goods :-) One thing that may not be so obvious here is that you should check these for squareness. I borrowed one from my MIL's basement a few years ago for just this purpose, and somehow after marking out the lines it just looked wrong. I then checked the square itself by flipping it over (not possible on all, but it was on this one) against one of the lines and it was out by several degrees. It had probably been dropped a few times over the years, which taught me a good lesson. Never assume an old square is really square, even one intended for precision work like mechanical drawing. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ++++ End of thread 50407 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50408 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130126 (thread 50408) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-04 14:22:04 Subject: A boot jack Digging in my closet this morning I found a boot jack that I made about 10 years ago. I thought you might like to see it. It is definitely different. http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/PhotoAlbum48.html You also get to see my black Lucchese boots working the jack. Scroll to the bottom of the page. I can't get the individual picture links to work. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ++++ End of thread 50408 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50409 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130135 (thread 50409) ---- From: mimulus@p... Date: 2004-03-04 16:40:06 Subject: Galoots and plastics There was an article in the local paper about a large gift to the College of Forest Products at the local U. The money was given by a well known producer of composite materials, and is to be used to fund a position and related research. Fiber and concrete, fiber and plastic, fiber and yada. High tech materials that make plywood quaint. The push to get these products to market obviously arises from the diminishing supply of timber that can be sawed into whole, real-wood boards. How much longer will these well patina'd tools we love and (some of us) know be useful? Will an Atkins go through concrete? Will I need a 20" brace to drill holes? As a coincidence, I noticed an odd looking plane in the current Leach List that is described as intended for plastics and composite materials. My paranoid instinct suggests I snap it up. cur ---- Start of Message 130145 (thread 50409) ---- From: Andy Barss Date: 2004-03-04 20:37:53 Subject: Re: Galoots and plastics On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 mimulus@p... wrote: > > The push to get these products to market obviously arises from the > diminishing supply of timber that can be sawed into whole, real-wood > boards. I'm not sure that's true. There are certainly fewer *really* big trees that can be sawn into extremely wide boards, but the US has more trees now than it did 150 years ago. I suspect the push is simply to get a new product into a very lucrative market. Almost all plywood is made using rotary cut veneers, which can be made from very small trees. -- Andy Barss ---- Start of Message 130172 (thread 50409) ---- From: mimulus@p... Date: 2004-03-05 08:22:23 Subject: Re: Galoots and plastics Andy replied: > On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 mimulus@p... wrote: > >> [stuff about composites] > > I'm not sure that's true. [...] the US has > more trees now than it did 150 years ago. This is kinda true around Northen Michigan and suchlike, where the sandier soils won't support intensive farming for very long and trees recolonized the vacated fields. As you move south just a tad south, the soils (again, if I recall correctly) are siltier and hence more supportive of ag, and have undergone correspondingly less reforestation. Out here on the West coast of Vermont, we have 40-80 year rotations and thus more numerous tress, but little opportunity for boards of significant width that won't eventually involve second mortgages. My question wasn't so much about forest policies or the moral fiber of wood composites, but rather about the future of galootery. It seems plausible that as solid wood products become more expensive, composites will become increasingly common. These new materials won't likely be engineered with handplaning in mind, leaving us with an increasinly expensive persuit (as if estate sales weren't already bad enough here). cur d'Corvallis -- ... or create new suitable hand tools... ++++ End of thread 50409 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50410 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130136 (thread 50410) ---- From: "Dan Clermont" Date: 2004-03-05 00:43:01 Subject: Infill Lever Caps Does somebody out there sell infill lever caps? They look time consuming and finicky to make. I was reading Jim Yehle's plans on how to make an A13 Infill and he mentioned he would not make a blade/chipbreaker or lever cap again because both were readily availlable. Thnking about building something sometime but making a Cap Iron turns me off. Dan Clermont in Burnaby ---- Start of Message 130148 (thread 50410) ---- From: Andy Barss Date: 2004-03-04 20:46:35 Subject: Re: Infill Lever Caps On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Dan Clermont wrote: > Does somebody out there sell infill lever caps? They look time > consuming and finicky to make. > Try Bob Howard at St. James Bay Tools. I think he sells finished ones for around $35, and unfinished for less. -- Andy Barss ---- Start of Message 130176 (thread 50410) ---- From: Russ Allen Date: 2004-03-05 09:28:17 Subject: Re: Infill Lever Caps Dan Clermont writes: > Does somebody out there sell infill lever caps? They look time > consuming and finicky to make. To which Andy Barss adds: > Try Bob Howard at St. James Bay Tools. I think he sells finished > ones for around $35, and unfinished for less. There's a scan from Bob's catalog at: http://home.xnet.com/~rcallen/stjameslevers.jpg The 2 inch wide unfinished ones are about $15 IIRC. Bob's site is http://www.stjamesbaytoolco.com/ Standard disclaimer, no affiliation but (gloat coming) I will be visiting Mesa in a coule of weeks! Russ Allen who has one more seat open for our July 31st infill class http://www.galootapalooza.org/ ++++ End of thread 50410 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50411 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130139 (thread 50411) ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-03-04 20:44:55 Subject: Need a little help ID'ing a pair of braces Gentle Galoots, A side 'benefit' of being home ill after my first ever migraine (if a benefit can come of that) was having LOML drag me to the local estate sale warehouse today. Turned out to be good therapy, made worthwhile by snagging a pair of robust 10" braces in very good condition. An hour spent online researching the Archives, Sandy Moss's and Randy Roeder's sites didn't provide much additional illumination as to just what I've acquired. Picture can be seen here: http://home.mindspring.com/~cdinde/tools/ One of these braces is a little used Craftsman Professional with a Lion-style chuck, red lacquer over hardwood handles, and bare steel finish. While it has no identifying model number, it does have 90% of the original decal on the handle. Looks a great deal like my Millers Falls Lion brace ca.1920, but with different style knurling, so I'm presuming it was made for Sears by M-F. The other caught my eye with it's beech pad and handle, and stamped marking of "Samson *", but doesn't appear to have a Samson chuck and again has no identifying model number that I can find. I gather that the second one is probably a high-end PS&W brace from their Samson line, but the chuck style and finish are a surprise if that is the case, and the Craftsman actually seems to be the slightly better brace of the two. As I have no catalogs for these makers, my research is at a standstill. Are the descriptions and photo enough for anyone to identify one, or both, more explicitly? Charlie Driggs Newark DE And yes, I still have a headache, but I'm a lot happier about it than I was last night. ---- Start of Message 130171 (thread 50411) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-05 13:01:46 Subject: Re: Need a little help ID'ing a pair of braces Hi I haven't seen a reply for this yet, so I'll take a shot. I'm not sure, but......the bottom one looks like a John S. Fray. Probably one of the lower end models targeted towards farmers with bare steel bow (not nickel plated) and beech cup and wrist handles. The chucks on these also were of lesser grade (if it is a Fray). Or you could have a Frankenbrace. The top one could be a Stanley #813 made for Craftsman/Sears. The chuck on this model is similar to the "lion" and "Samson" chucks of Millers falls and P S & W respectively. I have a lion, samson and a #813 and the Stanley is my favorite (favourite Jeff). Just a guess > Picture can be seen here: >http://home.mindspring.com/~cdinde/tools/ > >One of these braces is a little used Craftsman Professional with a >Lion-style chuck, red lacquer over hardwood handles, and bare steel >finish. While it has no identifying model number, it does have 90% of >the original decal on the handle. Looks a great deal like my Millers >Falls Lion brace ca.1920, but with different style knurling, so I'm >presuming it was made for Sears by M-F. The other caught my eye with >it's beech pad and handle, and stamped marking of "Samson *", but >doesn't appear to have a Samson chuck and again has no identifying model >number that I can find. I gather that the second one is probably a >high-end PS&W brace from their Samson line, but the chuck style and >finish are a surprise if that is the case, and the Craftsman actually >seems to be the slightly better brace of the two. As I have no catalogs >for these makers, my research is at a standstill. > >Are the descriptions and photo enough for anyone to identify one, or >both, more explicitly? > >Charlie Driggs >Newark DE > >And yes, I still have a headache, but I'm a lot happier about it than I >was last night. > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ++++ End of thread 50411 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50412 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130146 (thread 50412) ---- From: Darrell & Kathy Date: 2004-03-04 22:44:36 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup Jim Thompson wrote: > I recently wrote in to the list about this very problem. I have 2 #8 > planes and I back beveled the worst blade 5 degrees. That eliminated the > necessity of polishing the pitted back. > I will never chase after those stinking pits again. Just back bevel and > be done with it. Rob Cosman gave a presentation on preparing lumber from rough sawn to finished dimension using hand planes to the Halton Furniture Makers Society last week. When he was discussing sharpening he said he learned about back bevels from David Charlesworth. Rob said he had considered back bevels to be a great evil, and avoided them by going to great lengths to keep his waterstones perfectly flat. After Charlesworth showed him how it was done, and how FAST it made honing irons, and how well the blade worked, Rob was converted. I haven't tried it yet, but I have seen it done, and used the plane it was done to. The back bevel was accomplished by placing a small steel rule (about 1/2 inch wide and quite thin) along one side of the waterstone. This lifted the back of the iron a wee bit and produced the back bevel. -- Darrell Oakville ON Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User ---- Start of Message 130150 (thread 50412) ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-03-04 23:11:59 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup Darrell & Kathy wrote: > Jim Thompson wrote: > >> I recently wrote in to the list about this very problem. I have 2 #8 >> planes and I back beveled the worst blade 5 degrees. That eliminated >> the necessity of polishing the pitted back. > > >> I will never chase after those stinking pits again. Just back bevel >> and be done with it. > > > Rob Cosman ... I'm almost afraid to ask here, but is doing a back bevel in lieu of flattening the back of the blade? How big (in "depth") is the back bevel; small I'd imagine, no? ---- Start of Message 130165 (thread 50412) ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-03-05 09:01:38 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup Darrell & Kathy wrote: > Jim Thompson wrote: > >> I recently wrote in to the list about this very problem. I have 2 #8 >> planes and I back beveled the worst blade 5 degrees. That eliminated >> the necessity of polishing the pitted back. > > >> I will never chase after those stinking pits again. Just back bevel >> and be done with it. Err. Guys. We just had this one. I think the shellac fumes must be cuttin' in. http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_i- d=129067&submit_thread=1#message BugBear ---- Start of Message 130188 (thread 50412) ---- From: Craig Treleaven Date: 2004-03-05 19:29:58 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup At 11:11 PM -0500 2004/3/04, Michael campbell wrote: >Darrell & Kathy wrote: >>Jim Thompson wrote: >> >>>I recently wrote in to the list about this very problem. I have 2 #8 >>>planes and I back beveled the worst blade 5 degrees. That eliminated >>>the necessity of polishing the pitted back. >> >> >>I will never chase after those stinking pits again. Just back bevel >>and be done with it. >> >> >>Rob Cosman ... > > >I'm almost afraid to ask here, but is doing a back bevel in lieu of >flattening the back of the blade? How big (in "depth") is the back >bevel; small I'd imagine, no? Tiny. To resharpen, Rob only worked on the back of the iron for a few (10-15?) seconds on an 8000 grit waterstone. I believe he said that he only spends a couple of minutes on a brand new iron on a 1000 grit stone. And that is both the back _and_ the bevel! He only works the back enough to eliminate any grinding swirls that may be present. It was very interesting to watch. Rob is a man of strongly held opinions and he is totally converted to Charleworth's micro back-bevel. A few people there had attended his earlier week-long courses where they had spent literally hours trying to achieve a perfectly polished and flat back. Pretty huge switch! Craig ++++ End of thread 50412 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50413 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130152 (thread 50413) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-04 23:27:34 Subject: Sharpening with Diamond Paste Galoots: While we are smack dab in the middle of a discussion on blade sharpening, flattening the backs, and back bevels, here comes the Japan Woodworker with a new product called Diamond Paste. http://www.japanwoodworker.com/search.asp?s=JapanWoodworker Have any of you tried it? And what kind of success did you have? Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130173 (thread 50413) ---- From: kjworz@c... Date: 2004-03-05 17:27:59 Subject: Re: Sharpening with Diamond Paste I did see Garrett Hack use a smidgeon of diamond paste to sharpen a plane blade. He put that smidgeon (hald a pea size) on his old arkansas stone to make it go faster. Neato idea. I'm sure he used as fine a grit of paste as his stone was, but... who knows. It does make me wanna try it. -- -Chris Schwartz, Ex-Brewer Stealth #97 Silver Spring, MD > Galoots: > > While we are smack dab in the middle of a discussion on blade > sharpening, flattening the backs, and back bevels, here comes the > Japan Woodworker with a new product called Diamond Paste. > http://www.japanwoodworker.com/search.asp?s=JapanWoodworker > > Have any of you tried it? And what kind of success did you have? > > Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana > > ---- Start of Message 130199 (thread 50413) ---- From: "John Truxell-Svenson" Date: 2004-03-05 20:05:05 Subject: Re: Sharpening with Diamond Paste "Richard J. Hucker" wrote on 03/05/2004 02:27:34 AM: > While we are smack dab in the middle of a discussion on blade sharpening, > flattening the backs, and back bevels, here comes the Japan Woodworker with > a new product called Diamond Paste. > http://www.japanwoodworker.com/search.asp?s=JapanWoodworker > > Have any of you tried it? And what kind of success did you have? There was a longish thread at WoodCentral at http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/handtools.pl?read=20510 on this a while back, with the consensus being that cast iron is the best substrate for heavy work. The problem with softer stuff such as MDF is that the diamonds get embedded too far, and don't cut as efficiently as they do when held securely in iron plate, and there is no good way to clear swarf, wasting a lot of paste when changing to a new piece of substrate. The main hurdle is finding or making very flat iron plates for each grit--commercial ones are pricey, and precision scraping is non-trivial. I have had good results from using .5 micron paste on maple for final honing, after 2000 grit paper or 8000 grit waterstones (it works particularly well with very hard A2 and S53 steels). The larger grits definitely embed too far in maple to be as effective as they could be (I have never tried MDF), and waterstones cut fast enough that I have never been tempted to go all the way and find iron lapping plates or scrape my own. Bill Tindall has done a lot of experimenting with this on CPM V3 alloy tools and I'm sure be willing to answer any specific questions--his e-mail address is in the WC post. /jvs ___________________________________________________________ John Truxell-Svenson, Northern Virginia ---- Start of Message 130218 (thread 50413) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-06 02:28:26 Subject: Re: Sharpening with Diamond Paste Interesting conversation but I have to question if it is not just more sharpening snobbery. The only reason one ever NEEDS diamond is to sharpen carbide and sometimes working already kilned ceramics. I have read that silicon carbide and carborundum when they break, due to their crystalline molecular structure, form new cutting edges AS THE GRIT GETS CRUSHED TO SMALLER BITS. This means the more you work it the more the grit goes from sharpening to lapping towards POLISHING sized grit. As well as exposing brand new cutting edges. This makes it the ideal lapping material. As for the "cleaning the swarf" or whatever they called it I have to wonder if their snobbish attitude hasn't left them devoid of all common sense. All they would have to do to conserve and reuse the diamond paste is to thin it down with a suitable thinner (I don't know if it is oil or water based) to loosen it and put it in a plastic container with a magnet underneathe it and pour off the now thinned down diamond paste, let it dry a bit and reuse it. Or in the case of the brass/mylar/ or MDF plate put a little thinner on it, place a sheet of waxed paper above it and on that a magnet. Remove the magnet and wax paper together then throw away the waxed paper with only the metal being removed from the diamond lapping plate. Reuse. John Truxell-Svenson wrote to Richard: > "Richard J. Hucker" wrote on 03/05/2004 02:27:34 AM: > > > While we are smack dab in the middle of a discussion on blade sharpening, > > flattening the backs, and back bevels, here comes the Japan Woodworker > with > > a new product called Diamond Paste. > > http://www.japanwoodworker.com/search.asp?s=JapanWoodworker > > > > Have any of you tried it? And what kind of success did you have? > > There was a longish thread at WoodCentral at > http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/handtools.pl?read=20510 on this a wh ---- Start of Message 130230 (thread 50413) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-06 12:43:16 Subject: Re: Sharpening with Diamond Paste Chris wrote : > I did see Garrett Hack use a smidgeon of diamond paste to sharpen > a plane blade. He put that smidgeon (hald a pea size) on his old > arkansas stone to make it go faster. Neato idea. I'm sure he used > as fine a grit of paste as his stone was, but... who knows. It > does make me wanna try it. Isn't an arkansas stone harder that steel ? If it is then all he's doing is honing his stone as the bits will embed themselves in the steel first. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ++++ End of thread 50413 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50414 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130153 (thread 50414) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-04 22:40:30 Subject: ??? --- Andy Barss wrote: snip...the US has more trees now than it did 150 years ago. Hi Andy: Care to elucidate? The casual observer would say less. Is this a "Healthy Forests" stat? best to you; gAM __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130154 (thread 50414) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 2004-03-05 02:10:35 Subject: Re: ??? On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:40:30 -0800 (PST), gary may wrote: >--- Andy Barss wrote: >snip...the US has more trees now than it did 150 years ago. >Hi Andy: >Care to elucidate? The casual observer would say less. Is this a >"Healthy Forests" stat? > best to you; gAM Perhaps Andy or someone else will elucidate, but I have read that, at least in the Northeast, there is greater forest cover than there was 150, 200, or more years ago. Basically, forest has filled farmland. Even the land that is now suburbs or extended suburbs includes substantial forestation that was not there in the early years of the country, having been cleared for farming. I don't have a ready cite for you, though. Michael D. Sullivan Bethesda, MD (USA) ---- Start of Message 130156 (thread 50414) ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-03-05 02:29:43 Subject: Re: ??? > --- Andy Barss wrote: > > snip...the US has more trees now than it did 150 years ago. > > Hi Andy: > Care to elucidate? The casual observer would say less. Is this a > "Healthy Forests" stat? > best to you; gAM Ohh, Lord. Here we go again. Gary, how 'bout you set the WayBack Machine to 119073 and read again, at least to my post (119162), point #4. I still don't have the exact reference(s), but Andy is correct, especially in the eastern half of the country. The death of the family farm has had a big influence, as many fallow acres have become reforested. Hmmm, still wondering whether Todd celebrated July 4th last year in a new way. Charlie Driggs ---- Start of Message 130168 (thread 50414) ---- From: Andy Barss Date: 2004-03-05 13:05:15 Subject: Re: ??? On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Michael D. Sullivan wrote: > On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:40:30 -0800 (PST), gary may wrote: > > >snip...the US has more trees now than it did 150 years ago. > > >Hi Andy: > >Care to elucidate? The casual observer would say less. Is this a > >"Healthy Forests" stat? I can't seem to dig up the proper source -- I'm pretty sure I read it in a reputable place, but maybe I'm misremembering. It certainly is true of New England -- much of its original forests were cut down in the 18th and 19th centuries for farmland and fuel, and have reforested since. But maybe I'm wrong about the broader situation. -- Andy ---- Start of Message 130177 (thread 50414) ---- From: Bill Kasper Date: 2004-03-05 15:52:05 Subject: Re: ??? in the last decade i've seen an outstanding article in, i believe, the atlantic monthly, articles in journals such as bioscience, and individual articles in journals that cater particularly to academics. i don't remember exactly when the atlantic article was published, but iirc it was since 1995. bill felton, ca On Mar 5, 2004, at 12:05 PM, Andy Barss wrote: > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Michael D. Sullivan wrote: > >> On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:40:30 -0800 (PST), gary may wrote: >> >>> snip...the US has more trees now than it did 150 years ago. >> >>> Hi Andy: >>> Care to elucidate? The casual observer would say less. Is this a >>> "Healthy Forests" stat? > > > I can't seem to dig up the proper source -- I'm pretty sure I > read it in a reputable place, but maybe I'm misremembering. > It certainly is true of New England -- much of its original > forests were cut down in the 18th and 19th centuries for farmland > and fuel, and have reforested since. But maybe I'm wrong about > the broader situation. > > -- Andy > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 130189 (thread 50414) ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-03-05 12:34:18 Subject: Re: ??? All depends on what you are measuring. "Forested land" in the United States is generally belived to have declined rom 1600 to about WWI, and to have slightly increased after that. The increase has been accelerating. Number of trees has probably increased, both because of less maturity and because of greater numbers of dispersed trees that are not counted in "forested land". From the air, 40 year old suburbs often look foliated because of mature dispersed trees. Anthropologists will indicate that there may have been a very substantial decline in forested area between 0 B.C. and 1600 -- the Great Plains are theorizedt o have been a man-made construct created by fires set by Indians to make travel easier. The principal arguments are over the source of the fires, not that much of the Great Plains was once forested. John Lederer Oregon , Wisconsin Michael D. Sullivan wrote: >On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:40:30 -0800 (PST), gary may wrote: > > > > >>--- Andy Barss wrote: >> >> > > > >>snip...the US has more trees now than it did 150 years ago. >> >> > > > >>Hi Andy: >>Care to elucidate? The casual observer would say less. Is this a >>"Healthy Forests" stat? >> best to you; gAM >> >> > >Perhaps Andy or someone else will elucidate, but I have read that, at >least in the Northeast, there is greater forest cover than there was 150, >200, or more years ago. Basically, forest has filled farmland. Even the >land that is now suburbs or extended suburbs includes substantial >forestation that was not there in the early years of the country, having >been cleared for farming. I don't have a ready cite for you, though. > >Michael D. Sullivan >Bethesda, MD (USA) > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > ++++ End of thread 50414 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50415 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130155 (thread 50415) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 2004-03-05 02:17:14 Subject: Slightly OT: New use for shellac We all know that shellac is the ultimate, universal finish. We all know that shellac is so safe it's used to coat pills and candies. What we didn't know is that this bug excretion is also an essential element of Hollywood's ultimate extravaganza, the Oscars: "Last year was the 75th anniversary so we really explored the history of the Oscars, the art deco look of the '30s and '40s," Christopher said. "This year we're taking a more sophisticated, contemporary, sleeker approach." As he talks, sculptor Beth Schmidt begins to layer one of the prone gray statues with clear shellac and whisper-thin leaves of aluminum. Once coated, the silvery statue will be painted with a clear finish that is tinted yellow, giving the figure a transparent sheen that is prettier beneath the lights than simple gold paint. Michael D. Sullivan Bethesda, MD (USA) ---- Start of Message 130180 (thread 50415) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-05 07:07:40 Subject: RE: Slightly OT: New use for shellac > As he talks, sculptor Beth Schmidt begins to layer one of the prone > gray statues with clear shellac and whisper-thin leaves of aluminum. > Once coated, the silvery statue will be painted with a clear finish > that is tinted yellow, giving the figure a transparent sheen that is > prettier beneath the lights than simple gold paint. > > AID=/20040215/NEWS/202150346/1027/FEATURES01> > > > > Michael D. Sullivan > Bethesda, MD (USA) I couldn't get the link to work but that doesn't surprise me because I have seen gold leafing treated that way. It sounds like they are using a similiar technique with a different metal. Some actress was on a late night tv talk show mentioned something about not being able to sell an Oscar, either. That they apparently first have to offer it back to the academy for one dollar or somesuch. She was vague but it got me curious. Why would they do such a thing? ++++ End of thread 50415 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50416 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130166 (thread 50416) ---- From: "Tod Herrli" Date: 2004-03-05 07:14:31 Subject: Tampa Florida Dear galoots, I'll be traveling with my family this June 7th-14th to Tampa and Orlando with the family. I might have some Galoot time during my trip. Does anyone have any activities or get togethers scheduled in that area? Tod Herrli Mississinewa Valley Planes ---- Start of Message 130196 (thread 50416) ---- From: JPagona@a... Date: 2004-03-05 20:00:43 Subject: Re: Tampa Florida In a message dated 3/5/2004 6:34:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, therrli@c... writes: <<>>> Hi Tod, there's nothing planned for that week, but we can plan something. This just might be a good year to have two T-BAG events. (Tomorrow the T-BAGS are meeting outside of Ocala, FL, and we're making marking/panel/pencil gauges.) We could have a cigar shave class, or maybe a gunstock scraper class, or maybe just a good old fashioned rust hunt. Ping me if you're interested. If anybody else is interested, I'd say pencil in Saturday, June 12 and Sunday, June 13, and let me know to put you on the list. One of the things I love about living in Florida is that I get to meet a lot of Galoots who are passing through. David Sobel Tampa, FL So Martin, any chance you'll be visiting your mother that week? ++++ End of thread 50416 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50417 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130167 (thread 50417) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-05 12:47:53 Subject: Planes and such I finally got around to taking pictures of all my planes and suchlike. =A0http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/ (planes and such) There are a couple of other interesting things there too. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA= ---- Start of Message 130251 (thread 50417) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-07 05:08:40 Subject: RE: Planes and such Lots of interesting stuff there. I breezed around this time around. The one thing that surprised me was on the wagon wheel, closing the ring gap. When I saw Roy make a wheel they heated up the uncut ring to expand it, placed it over the wood wheel and then quickly poured water on the ring to shrink it and protect the wood from burning obviously. No mention, ever, of a ring gap. I remember you also said it had shouldered tenons and was surprised when I said the one I saw the exact replica built on Roy's show did not have shouldered tenons. Maybe they differed in different parts of the country? Why would one have what looked like a butt joint ring gap and the other have none? I suspect the other was probably scarfed together in a forge weld so even if any signs of its being connected came together it would not have an obvious ring gap. I liked the chisels a lot but I never saw a picture of the pfeil ones you've previously mentioned. > [Original Message] > From: Jim Thompson > To: oldtools > Date: 3/5/2004 5:37:44 PM > Subject: [oldtools] Planes and such > > I finally got around to taking pictures of all my planes and suchlike. > >  http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/ (planes and such) > > There are a couple of other interesting things there too. > > > > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ++++ End of thread 50417 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50418 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130169 (thread 50418) ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-03-05 08:57:10 Subject: re: big tiimber WAS Galoots and plastics >> > >> > The push to get these products to market obviously arises from the >> > diminishing supply of timber that can be sawed into whole, real-wood >> > boards. >> I'm not sure that's true. There are certainly fewer *really* big >> trees that can be sawn into extremely wide boards, but the US has >> more trees now than it did 150 years ago. Not to mention the Eastern Russian republics have forests the size of the U= nited States, anyone know of an importer of Russian wood? Those trees over= there are gonna be huge.. Epson Inkjet Printer FAQ: http://home.att.net/~arwomack01/index.html 24 Days to MH automation: http://alan.firebin.net/24_days.html --=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ---- Start of Message 130206 (thread 50418) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-05 17:52:11 Subject: re: big tiimber WAS Galoots and plastics Hi Alan-- According to the Columbia Encyclopedia, the Soviet Union and the US together produce half the world's lumber, as of 1990. It's a toss-up which area produces more from year to year. The 1933 edition makes no mention of the USSR, but credits the US with half of the world's lumber supply. and that ain't hay; GAM in West Seattle, formerly an immense forest. --- Alan Womack wrote: the Eastern Russian republics have forests the size of the United States, anyone know of an importer of Russian wood? Those trees over there are gonna be huge.. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130308 (thread 50418) ---- From: "YARROW, GARY" Date: 2004-03-08 14:22:09 Subject: RE: big tiimber WAS Galoots and plastics A very large amount of timber is imported from Russia and other countries of the former USSR, as well as Finland and Sweden. If you have a job with lots of 2 X 4, and go to places like Home Depot, look at end stamps. A lot is marked as Russian, Finnish or Swedish. They are not big trees, however, given the climatic conditions, its surprisingly that the grow at all. Some scientists now believe that the deforestation of the arboreal forests might be as bad, if not worse, than the deforestation of rain forests. Rain forests can regenerate "relatively" quickly, but the arboreals take a long, long time (i.e., cold and dry). The US has become a net importer of wood, especially construction grade stuff. Mainly from Canada, but also the counties above. Of course, there are arguments why: political, legal, environmental, etc., etc. But, lets face it, the now common saying "global economy" is true. Gary ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dr. Gary L. Yarrow, Director/RSO/CCHO Environmental Health and Safety SH 059; Box 2202 South Dakota State University Brookings, SD 57007-0796 605-688-6332 > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Womack [mailto:arwbackup@w...] > Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 10:57 AM > To: oldtools > Subject: re: [oldtools] big tiimber WAS Galoots and plastics > > > >> > > >> > The push to get these products to market obviously > arises from the > >> > diminishing supply of timber that can be sawed into > whole, real-wood > >> > boards. > > >> I'm not sure that's true. There are certainly fewer *really* big > >> trees that can be sawn into extremely wide boards, but the US has > >> more trees now than it did 150 years ago. > > Not to mention the Eastern Russian republics have forests the > size of the United States, anyone know of an importer of > Russian wood? Those trees over there are gonna be huge.. > > > > > Epson Inkjet Printer FAQ: http://home.att.net/~arwomack01/index.html > > 24 Days to MH automation: http://alan.firebin.net/24_days.html > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ++++ End of thread 50418 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50419 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130174 (thread 50419) ---- From: paul r morin Date: 2004-03-05 14:09:13 Subject: 71 / o71 Router Plane Manuals (arched throat type) now on-line. Both the Record and Stanley manuals are now available. They are in one largish file (3.2 MB) in pdf format. Sorry, I didn't zip them separately. They can be downloaded from: www.cranialstorage.com/RouterPlaneManuals.zip (entering the link should start them on a download process) for anyone else that would like them. They both cover the newer arched throat style. Good routing. -- It is hard to fight against anger, for a man will buy revenge with his soul. - Heraclities, 500BC Paul R Morin Calgary, Alberta, Canada www.cranialstorage.com/wood ++++ End of thread 50419 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50420 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130175 (thread 50420) ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-03-05 16:56:43 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sharpening's_nothing_to_get_cut_up_about=2E_=28Very_long?= and bo Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about. The Bootstrap Galoot's notes on starting sharpening There has been a plethora of postings to the list about sharpening, and different ways to go about it. It really isn't a surprise that the subject comes up again and again, for it is the one skill which differentiates hand workers from their tailed counterparts. Despite all the specialised tools, hand work all comes down to needing to be able to sharpen them correctly. Most folk simply do not know what 'sharp' is in this context. Nowadays we don't have a need for 'sharp' implements. Razors are thrown away when dull, kitchen knives are dull in most households, and after that - what else in a modern house needs to be sharp=3F So we've lost the tribal knowledge we once had. Modern wood tools come with throw away cutters, or they need to be reground by specialists. Only a few of us need to make a metal edge sharp enough to work with hard timbers. And we are so thinly spread that we rarely have the opportunity to receive 'apprentice training' and be doused in curses by the master until we become capable. Neither do we have to spend a couple of years practicing. We want and need 'instant' results. So how to go about sharpening in a way that will produce wonderful results we can be proud of=3F A century ago oilstones were the best way to produce = keen edges on the steel used in old chisels and tools. In the Orient, they used stones with water to do the same thing. Then came manufactured stones, with consistent cutting qualities, and coated abrasives, and finally come motorised versions of all these, which reduces the manual effort needed. Notice that I don't think the required skill has decreased much with motorised wheels - the skill is surely in knowing when to stop, not in holding metal against a rotating surface. But what do we want to achieve, and is it the same for all tools, or are there special techniques and magics for sharpening plane irons versus other tools=3F There are certainly two types of tool to be concerned with -= edged tools and toothed tools. Pedants may observe that a saw is merely a large number of small knives, or chisels. Whilst admitting that to be the case, we can still regard sharpening them as being very different to sharpening most other edge tools. The simplest case is the plane blade, chisel, or marking knife - the very epitome of 'sharp on a stick' by which I mean an unguarded sharpened edge on the end of something. Most tools are simple 'sharp on a stick' plus some sort of device for limiting the cut. The more device, the less skill is needed, so an adze or axe demands more of its user than does a bench plane. They both require to be sharp, and as sharp as each other, for they are both doing the same job of slicing wood fibres. A sharp edge is the meeting point of two (flat) surfaces, and for most woodworking jobs, an angle of about 30 degrees between the surfaces will be about right. Don't bother to write in and tell me that a burflwang needs to be at 40 degrees, or a wingpiff has to be at 20. I'm generalising, for the aim of our exercise is simply to produce two flat surfaces which come together, and a sensible figure is 30 for practice. If we're a complete beginner to the fun, excitement, quiet and satisfaction of sharpening, then where do we start=3F Well, throw away everything that everyone has told you about sharpening systems - stones, waterbaths, jigs and all the rest. If you've risen to the realisation that hand tools are a) Good Things and b) Need Sharpening, then you are already ahead of the pack. All you need to know, and remember is that you want those two surfaces to come together and meet. There is lots of rubbish hotly discussed about hollow grinding, dubbing over, rounding your bevel (bezel) angles, and lots more. Disregard it all. If you came this far, you have the intuition to realise that you need just the two surfaces. All the discussion that comes about is how to make two meeting surfaces easily and quickly. Being human, we each defend our way of doing things, and being human, we try new things, and accumulate more stones, and jigs, and listen to the snake oil merchant who tells us that diamond impregnated stones are the wonderful new and best way of sharpening, if only we hand over some of our taxed earnings. Well, it may be. It may not. If you sell them, they're best. If you buy them, they're best. If you just paid the same or more money for ceramic stones, they're not the best. If you have no money, then the oilstones my grandfather used were good enough for him, and really *knew* about these, and so they're good enough for me. But it's just two surfaces remember. The only issue is how to remove metal in a quick and controlled manner to get two surfaces. If we used a coarse grit, the surface are like ploughed fields, and the join is rough. If we use very fine grit, the surface is like a raked field, then like a rolled field, and the join becomes smoother and smoother. The smoother the join, the less the jaggy bits dig in and the sharper it is. So I've already mentioned grit sizes. All stones and abrasives have grit - little angular particles which dig into the metal and remove tiny dust size motes. Bigger grit removes bigger bits and cuts 'faster' but leaves bigger furrows. When the particle becomes blunt and can no longer dig into the metal, the metal hitting it will break it free of the substrate it is bound to, whether it is natural, artificial, or a coated abrasive. Eventually an abrasive sheet will be blunt and smooth, and a stone will be dipped and worn and need flattening. But this isn't about systems. Lets sharpen a plane blade by picking the cheapest system around. Who named it 'Scary Sharp' =3F With the advent of= coated abrasives, it's very feasible to sharpen tools with throw away abrasive. Initial costs are low, and because you are using fresh and sharp abrasive in a larger range of grit sizes, results are quick and predictable. In the last century everyone sharpened by placing a blob of oil on the stone and rubbing the tool back and forth. (Oil helps to prevent the tiny bits of removed metal from staying in the spaces between the grit and clogging up the stone. Eventually they would fill the spaces, then the grit isn't sticking out of the surface any more and the cutting stops. Water is also used for the same reason ) The trouble with this 'freehand' method is that it is very, very difficult to maintain a constant angle as you rub, both as the stroke moves along the stone, and between strokes. The result is that instead of two flat planes meeting, you produce two curved surfaces which meet. Now, this could be OK, and most times it is, for it is only the very edge, the meeting point, which is doing work, but we've increased the angle so that instead of our 30 degrees, the actual angle may be at 40, or 50 degrees, and the shaving which is produced has to be bent more to ride up over the brow of the hill we created. Personally, I think everyone should set about practicing to be able to sharpen by hand. If you do, then a good way to do so is to take some plywood the size of a plane blade, and some coarse grit (say 60 or 100) abrasive, glued down to a block of flat wood about stone size. Then sharpen your plywood. The stripes in the wood give a good clue to keeping the angle flat and even, and the action is the same. Use a plane to round over the bevel a bit, then hand sharpen it back again. But back at our plane blade, procure some abrasive sheets in varying grades. Aluminium Zirconia is said to be 'the best' - it's a cloth backed grade in a blue colour made by Norton, in various grades. Prepare a flat surface - inch thick MDF, inch plywood, lump of cast off marble tombstone, lump of float plate glass, the optically perfectly flat platen from a dead photocopier - your choice. Cut your abrasive sheets to sensible standard sizes - about 2 1 /2 inches wide and 9 or 12 inches long. Glue them down in neat rows, using a removable type adhesive. I find that wetting the back of a full sheet and placing it atop a surface plate is adequate, but it's far better to make up a board with a series of papers, so that it's always ready to use. Now you'll need some sort of device for holding the blade at a constant angle. This is more opportunity for gizmo sellers. We're doing this at minimum cost though, so make a sharpening box. This is 4 pieces of ply or mdf, to make a rectangle open top and bottom perhaps half as long again as your strips, and a touch wider. Finally you need a carriage. This can be as simple as a length of split dowel, a little longer than your box is wide. Split it at half way if it's chunky, or leave it as is if it's under about a half inch diameter. You now have a surface with strips of varying grit abrasive, a rectangle to fit over any one, and a dowel to run along the top of the long edge of the box. Place the dowel on the box, the box on the coarsest grit, and your plane blade on the dowel, so that it is angled downwards at our desired 30 degrees. A rubber band around the dowel and the blade a few times will keep the dowel in place on the blade. If you now apply pressure at the sharp end of the blade and run it back and forth you can see that the angle is held constant. The fresh abrasive cuts quickly and well, and when the bevel is finished, evidenced by a 'wire edge' appearing at the sharp end, then move the box to the next grit, and continue, repeating as many times as you have grits. 1000 grit should be very sharp, 1500 grit sharper, 2000 is looking polished. To avoid doing quite so much work, we only make the bevel angle on the coarse grit. If you look at a plane or chisel blade, you see two areas of bevel. The primary bevel is there to get the bulk of material out of the way, the secondary bevel is where all the intensive polishing goes on. Once you have that large primary bevel, alter the angle by 5 degrees, and take just a few strokes on each grit, moving quickly through the range, with perhaps only a 32nd of an inch at the tip being sharpened. On successive sharpening, you just work this tiny area, making the sharpening go very quickly, but the bevel a bit bigger each time, until eventually you need to re-establish that primary bevel Remember too, that our sharp edge needs two surfaces, so the somewhat tedious process of 'flattening the back' is required. This is merely the same process for the other face - which is usually the back of the blade. Placing it flat down and rubbing back and forth through the grits until a polished surface you can see yourself in is generally a long job, but it only needs doing once, and can be touched up on the very finest grade on each successive sharpening. No need to do the whole back either - only that very edge is concerned with being sharp. Some folk lift the far side of the back by a steel ruler's thickness to produce that final edge - called a 'back bevel' - which, should you choose to do so, must be no more than a stroke or two, else the cutting edge will no longer be in line with the back, and you will never be able to pare to a line successfully, but will have produced a carving chisel accidentally. Be sure to work enough at each grit to remove all marks of the previous one, and to be sure that your freshly abraded surface goes right to the edge and beyond it. One of the 'rounding over' problems of freehanding is that you tend to go not quite far enough to shape the very edge. So there you should have it - a very sharp blade, looking very like a mirror on one or perhaps two slivers of reflection at the very edge of the blade. Improve on the 'lump of dowel' I described for the sharpening box. A simple clamp by arranging a bolt with wing nut through a runner, a slotted runner for chisels - all easy to conceive and make - and simple, and cheap to start up, and pretty much guaranteed to give good results. And make up some sticks to indicate how far the blade should project to give your preferred angles. Or mark the edge of your box so you can repeat the set up quickly and easily. Now that you know what the sharpness is that you seek, try other methods. Evaluate other jigs for holding the blades. Consider how that diamond impregnated ceramic oilstone is going to compare, and if its cost is worth its value. This abrasive papers method is cheap to start up, but may be costly if you're using lots of papers, compared to a waterstone or oilstone. You may find a bench grinder useful to speed up removing masses of metal to make the primary bevel - but it can destroy the temper of the steel by overheating it. - a slow speed grinder and cool cutting wheel would be better. Water cooled systems are even better - slow speed waterstones either horizontally or vertically. But they all do the same thing. Its very simple, and needs no magic. Just keep chanting the mantra "two planes meeting, two planes meeting" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ++++ End of thread 50420 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50421 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130179 (thread 50421) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-05 06:48:41 Subject: Straightening Auger Bits I could use a bit of help on the topic of auger bits. What I want to know is a little background about what kind of metal technology is in these old things. Are they hardened at the end? Are they malleable iron? How can I take out bends? Now I'll give you the situation. After all these recent discussions I was going through them and decided to use the 3/8ths for a pocket hole jig I recently built from scratch. So I find three number 6s and unlike the bigger ones these all seem to have some degree of bend to them so I am wondering how I can restraighten them? I'm pretty sure the current bends won't allow them to fit through the long steel insert I installed in the pockethole jig. After a little closer inspection at the business end I noticed the screws were all in great condition but upon testing them in a piece of soft pine they didn't want to keep pulling themselves in. So the ends were very dull. I got out a small needle file set and very carefully sharpened the inside angles of the outer spurs and the chisel edge itself making sure to keep my thumb in the way of the screw so if I slipped with the file it would hit my finger instead of the screw drive. After this treatment it made that nice familiar lightly squeaking sound that I remember an auger bit should make. And two of them cut very well. The last one had the spurs too mashed in so I was content to leave it alone for now since two work. To let you know what I have available I am not a huge metalworker but I do have a couple of small anvils on the vise as well as a piece of train track I salvaged for pseudo-anvil purposes. But before I go beating on these things I'd like some advice. What's the best way to straighten them? ---- Start of Message 130186 (thread 50421) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-05 16:12:51 Subject: Re: Straightening Auger Bits On Friday, March 5, 2004, at 04:48 AM, John Sawchak wrote: > I could use a bit of help on the topic of auger bits. What I want to > know > is a little background about what kind of metal technology is in these > old > things. Are they hardened at the end? Are they malleable iron? How can > I > take out bends? Auger bits can be sharpened with a file, so they are soft enough to bend back to straightness. I suggest a soft hammer and a piece of hardwood on the anvil. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130208 (thread 50421) ---- From: "John Pesut" Date: 2004-03-05 20:57:14 Subject: Re: Straightening Auger Bits I have posted an Adobe .pdf of an original Irwin auger bit manual here: http://home.att.net/~the_tinker/oldtools/irwin.pdf Straight from the proverbial horses mouth so-to-speak. See page 12... Later, > I could use a bit of help on the topic of auger bits. What I want to know > is a little background about what kind of metal technology is in these old > things. Are they hardened at the end? Are they malleable iron? How can I > take out bends? > ---- Start of Message 130214 (thread 50421) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-06 00:46:22 Subject: Re: Straightening Auger Bits Must have a lot of moisture in the phone lines because that thing took forever to download. We just got a really sloppy snowstorm that has come through in the past two days here in MN. Many many thanks for that, John. I just read it completely through. Interesting to learn of the specialty bits for sap tapping and the different head designs. Most of mine seem like the medium drive but I will keep the fine screw ones in mind for hardwood applications. I'm surprised they don't go more into sharpening those. And it didn't say much about straightening, either, but it did tell me the most important thing I will keep in mind when restraightening those smaller abused auger bits. That the head is slightly larger than the body of the twist, imitating a saw's kerf in function, so I will hang that off the edge of whatever surface I straighten it on. Thanks again! John Pesut said: > I have posted an Adobe .pdf of an original > Irwin auger bit manual here: > > http://home.att.net/~the_tinker/oldtools/irwin.pdf ++++ End of thread 50421 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50422 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130190 (thread 50422) ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-03-05 07:35:57 Subject: Re: ??? new forests Various galoots wrote: > >snip...the US has more trees now than it did 150 > years ago. > > Perhaps Andy or someone else will elucidate, but I > have read that, at > least in the Northeast, there is greater forest > cover than there was 150, > 200, or more years ago. Basically, forest has > filled farmland. Even the > land that is now suburbs or extended suburbs > includes substantial > forestation that was not there in the early years of > the country, having > been cleared for farming. Of course, this new "forest" is a mixture of exotic foreign species, non-timber trees, and occassionally some crop trees planted in rows, using seed or transplants from some other part of the country or world. The original native species are few and far between, replaced by either ornamentals, scrubby weed trees, or fast growing trees planted for quick production of wood fiber for quick profit, rather than quality wood for future generations. Don't get me started on this. ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130202 (thread 50422) ---- From: "Sanford Moss" Date: 2004-03-05 20:31:41 Subject: Re: ??? new forests Jim and others wrote: >> Basically, forest has > > filled farmland. Even the > > land that is now suburbs or extended suburbs > > includes substantial > > forestation that was not there in the early years of > > the country, having > > been cleared for farming. > >Of course, this new "forest" is a mixture of exotic >foreign species, non-timber trees, and occassionally >some crop trees planted in rows, using seed or >transplants from some other part of the country or >world. The original native species are few and far >between, replaced by either ornamentals, scrubby weed >trees, or fast growing trees planted for quick >production of wood fiber for quick profit, rather >than quality wood for future generations. >Don't get me started on this. Hey, why not? Here in southern and central New England that reforestation has generally involved native species like red & white oaks, white pine, American beech, hemlock and cedar. I don't see much in the way of exotic, non-native species in my walks through the secondary and tertiary forests. It may be different in the upper mid-west. It is a bit of a stretch to think that the clearing of New England was due to what we traditionally think of "farming"--the raising of vegetable, grain, and orchard crops. The first wave of extensive deforestation was in the name of timber in New England (17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries). The second wave, in the middle and late 19th century, was for land clearing for agriculture (and firewood), but that agriculture was dominated by raising sheep for the wool to feed the New Englad textile mills (old tool content coming). This era of our history coincides with the great burst of mechanical invention that is the grist for our current old tool mill. Those stone walls, that snake endlessly through today's New England forests, at one time enclosed sheep pastures more than crop fields. Only after the textile industry migrated south, in the early 20th century, did the regrowth of New England forests begin to occur. The American Civil War also had a hand in this deforestation, as it really provided a stimulus for woolen goods, wood for fuel (especially on railroads), and other raw materials. For example, if you pass through the town of Mattapoissett on I-195, east of New Bedford heading to Cape Cod, the otherwise ubiquitous stone walls disappear. This is because there was a crushing mill in Mattapoisett during the Civil War that used the stones from the local field walls to make ballast, which was shipped south for new railroads beds constructed in the war effort. Another interesting effect of the land clearing for sheep farming, and the demands of the Civil War, was the complete extirpation of white tail deer and black bear from southern New England in the 1860s, and great reductions in their numbers in New York and Pennsylvania. In addition to the habitat changes, these animals suffered year round hunting pressure to provide meat for the Union armies. Deer actually had to be introduced from New Brunswick, Canada, to re-establish their populations in Massachusetts after the forests came back. Now, of course, we have too god damn many of them! Sandy _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ---- Start of Message 130203 (thread 50422) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-05 17:35:52 Subject: Re: ??? new forests Hi Jim: Now that I think about it, 1850 would have been a pretty well logged period in US history---I don't think anyone's saying that there are more trees around North America than there were in 1600. After 250 years of log cabin building and several decades of RR access to the midwest, well, there was a serious dent in the Eastern US forests. And there are definitely more trees on the prairie than before. I know it ain't true, but I keep telling myself that any tree is a good tree. best to you; GAM --- Jim Erdman wrote: >I > > have read that, at > > least in the Northeast, there is greater forest > > cover than there was 150, > > 200, or more years ago. Basically, forest has > > filled farmland. Even the > > land that is now suburbs or extended suburbs > > includes substantial > > forestation that was not there in the early years of > > the country, having > > been cleared for farming. > > Of course, this new "forest" is a mixture of exotic > foreign species, non-timber trees, and occassionally > some crop trees planted in rows, using seed or > transplants from some other part of the country or > world. The original native species are few and far > between __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130207 (thread 50422) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-05 20:53:29 Subject: Re: ??? new forests > Here in southern and central New England that reforestation has > generally involved native species like red & white oaks, white > pine, American beech, hemlock and cedar. I don't see much in the > way of exotic, non-native species in my walks through the As this thread started from the notion that we wouldn't have wood, dare I mention that the land mass that is New England is rather incidental in the scheme of things. For instance, the province in which I live produces 80% of the maple syrup used in the world. New Englanders don't like to believe that the stuff is produced elsewhere but.... And so is the wood. Besides, the sheetwood substitutes that were mentioned have nothing to do with replacement of hardwood but rather softwoods. Further, I suspect you could find ample proof that lack of softwood supplies are not the reason but rather to provide better insulation, better water resistance, etc. When it comes to softwoods, this little spot of land to your north also produces a fair bit of the stuff. When the Bush administration bowed to the wood syndicates and slapped stiff tariffs on softwood from Canada, it was hard to tell who was screaming the loudest - the Canadian producers or the US housing industry. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130212 (thread 50422) ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-03-05 21:39:11 Subject: Re: ??? new forests Martin Creveld wrote a book about the history of military logistics about 20 years ago. It was a bit of a revolution in military history because it explained things such as the fabled continual movement of Gustavus Adolphus's disproportionately mounted army in terms of the necessity of continually moving to find sufficient fodder for the horses. I have forgotten the figure, but it took a sizable area of grass to keep a big charger fed. A book I read about the the life of immigrant homesteaders suggested that about half of their tillable acres were devoted to fodder for their draft animals. So replacing oxen, horses, and mules with the gasoline engine might have had a big effect on forestation. I know that as I rust hunt, I am continually and pleasantly surprised by the amount of stuff I find devoted to draft animals and their care. I suspect an ox yoke was the first and most essential galoot project for many immigrants. I have to confess to having a full harness for a pair of draft horses in my garage attic -- it was an auction, it was cheap, and it had bells..... SWMBO made me get rid of the cast iron horse drawn road grader I had from the same auction. Claimed it blocked the drive, and did not buy my reasoning that we could use it to clear the drive of snow. John Lederer Oregon , Wisconsin > > It is a bit of a stretch to think that the clearing of New England was > due to what we traditionally think of "farming"--the raising of > vegetable, grain, and orchard crops. The first wave of extensive > deforestation was in the name of timber in New England (17th, 18th, > and early 19th centuries). The second wave, in the middle and late > 19th century, was for land clearing for agriculture (and firewood), > but that agriculture was dominated by raising sheep for the wool to > feed the New Englad textile mills (old tool content coming). This era > of our history coincides with the great burst of mechanical invention > that is the grist for our current old tool mill. Those stone walls, > that snake endlessly through today's New England forests, at one time > enclosed sheep pastures more than crop fields. Only after the > textile industry migrated south, in the early 20th century, did the > regrowth of New England forests begin to occur. > > ---- Start of Message 130270 (thread 50422) ---- From: Paul Honore Date: 2004-03-07 16:12:48 Subject: Re: ??? new forests At 08:31 PM 3/5/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Jim and others wrote: > >>> Basically, forest has >> > filled farmland. Even the >> > land that is now suburbs or extended suburbs >> > includes substantial >> > forestation that was not there in the early years of >> > the country, having >> > been cleared for farming. >> >>Of course, this new "forest" is a mixture of exotic >>foreign species, non-timber trees, and occassionally >>some crop trees planted in rows, using seed or >>transplants from some other part of the country or >>world. The original native species are few and far >>between, replaced by either ornamentals, scrubby weed >>trees, or fast growing trees planted for quick >>production of wood fiber for quick profit, rather >>than quality wood for future generations. >>Don't get me started on this. > Another reason why the forests were cleared, particularly in the Northeast was the never ending demand for charcoal to fire the primitive blast furnaces of the 19th century. Even after the Bessemer process was developed in the 1850s, the demand for charcoal continued well into the 20th century. The area extending from the Hudson River to the Housatonic in Connecticut was particularly rich in ore and was a center of iron production from NY/Connecticut to Vermont. I recall reading that a cord of hardwood makes about 40 bushels of charcoal and a typical furnace in those days used about 1200 bushels a day. Doesn't take long to de-forest an area at that rate. Must have been a nasty, dirty job producing all that charcoal The Bessemer process finally won out in the early 20th century and most of the old furnaces just tumbled away, although the one on the grounds of the Sloane-Stanley Museum in Kent CT has been nicely restored. Paul Honore waiting for more snow in Hebron CT Connecticut Rivers were ---- Start of Message 130271 (thread 50422) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-07 13:25:34 Subject: Re: ??? new forests Hi Paul: At a good friend's wedding a few summers ago, I met his father, the chief engineer of a wood-burning electrical plant in Michigan---one can only assume that there are more of these around---another reason to say "NO" to plugs, IYAM---- best to all galoots; GAM --- Paul Honore wrote: > Another reason why the forests were cleared, particularly in the Northeast was the never ending demand for charcoal to fire the primitive blast furnaces of the 19th century. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 50422 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50423 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130191 (thread 50423) ---- From: Tom Dewey Date: 2004-03-05 15:43:37 Subject: For Metallic Plane Co Collectors I have recently acquired a 20" Metallic Plane Co. jointer in good to very good condition. The usual broken off tip of the tote which has been adequately repaired is the only bad feature. Original japaning, original iron (Clover Leaf), etc. I cleaned it up a bit, honed the iron, and would put it to use except that I already have sufficient bench planes. It is identical to the one Jon Zimmerman has listed on his website. I note that it incorporates a feature I haven't seen on metallic planes before: two approx. 3/8" X 1/8" brass pins set into the casting just abaft the mouth opening upon which the blade rests. Was this feature standard from the beginning of production, or, perhaps retro-fitted later? Just curious. If anyone is collecting these feel free to let me know. ++++ End of thread 50423 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50424 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130200 (thread 50424) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-05 17:22:15 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about. (Very long and boring) On Friday, March 5, 2004, at 08:56 AM, Richard.Wilson@s... wrote: > > There has been a plethora of postings to the list about sharpening, and > different ways to go about it. It really isn't a surprise that the > subject comes up again and again, for it is the one skill which > differentiates hand workers from their tailed counterparts. > Despite all the specialised tools, hand work all comes down to needing > to > be able to sharpen them correctly. Hear, HEAR! From now on I suggest that all who post a sharpening question be required to read Richard's treatise before the assembled galooterati try to explain it again. Excellent post! Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130216 (thread 50424) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-03-06 08:00:56 Subject: RE: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about. (Very long and boring) : -----Original Message----- : From: Richard.Wilson@s... [mailto:Richard.Wilson@s...] : Sent: 05 March 2004 16:57 : To: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about. : (Very long : and boring) : : ..................... Who named it 'Scary Sharp' ? Steve Lamantia, of fond memory, deserves credit to bringing it to the internet, though some researchers have found earlier attributions. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 130220 (thread 50424) ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-03-06 07:51:07 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about. (Very long and boring) > : ..................... Who named it 'Scary Sharp' ? > > Steve Lamantia, of fond memory, deserves credit to bringing it to the > internet, though some researchers have found earlier attributions. For reference, see the "post that started it all" at http://www.shavings.net/SCARY.HTM#original Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 130222 (thread 50424) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 2004-03-07 00:01:37 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about. (Very long and boring) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Love" > > Steve Lamantia, of fond memory, deserves credit to bringing it to the > > internet, though some researchers have found earlier attributions. > > > For reference, see the "post that started it all" at > > http://www.shavings.net/SCARY.HTM#original > It's amazing how this text hasn't lost any of its beauty in all the years it's been out there. A true classic. Cheers Nuno Souto in wet Sydney, Australia dbvision@o... ++++ End of thread 50424 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50425 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130201 (thread 50425) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-05 09:21:56 Subject: back bevels (was Bedrock 605 . . .) Greetings, I have been thinking about back bevels lately for the following reason: Wooden molding planes seem mostly to have been made with a 45 degree bedding angle. Some were made with steeper angles, but they seem to be rare. If you are using these 45 degree planes for straight grained wood, no problem. But if you want to use wood with interesting grain or very hard tropical wood, what do you do? It seems to be pretty well accepted that the steeper bedding angle will give better results in tearout-prone wood. But who can afford to go find sets of York pitch molding planes? So here is the question: if a back bevel can give you the effect of a steeper pitch without changing the actual bedding angle, might this not be a way to make molding planes more useful for the kind of woods used in much furniture making? I am thinking about doing some experiments with a molding plane, but would like your comments first. Blake ---- Start of Message 130211 (thread 50425) ---- From: Johnny Johnson Date: 2004-03-05 21:45:35 Subject: Re: back bevels (was Bedrock 605 . . .) At 09:21 AM 3/5/2004 -0700, Blake Ashley wrote: >So here is the question: if a back bevel can give you the effect of a >steeper pitch without changing the actual bedding angle, might this not >be a way to make molding planes more useful for the kind of woods used >in much furniture making? Hi Blake, Seems to me that putting a small back bevel on the complex edge of a molding plane might be a good trick to learn. Let me know how it turns out. Later, Johnny __________________________ Johnny Johnson Lilburn, GA mailto:jjohnso4@c... ++++ End of thread 50425 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50426 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130205 (thread 50426) ---- From: Darrell & Kathy Date: 2004-03-05 20:49:05 Subject: Re: back bevels Blake, Almost all the molding plane irons I've sharpened have arrived in my shop with back bevels on them already. Emprical evidence from my shop indicates that the oldtimers did very little to the profiles in the way of sharpening. Most of the honing was done to the back of the irons. Where the back bevels were small I flattened the backs to get rid of them. The big back-bevels I just followed what was there. So how do you get so lucky that you have a molding plane which doesn't already have a back bevel on the iron? -- Darrell Oakville ON Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User ---- Start of Message 130234 (thread 50426) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-06 15:29:55 Subject: Re: back bevels Darrell writes : >Almost all the molding plane irons I've sharpened have arrived >in my shop with back bevels on them already. Emprical evidence >from my shop indicates that the oldtimers did very little to >the profiles in the way of sharpening. Most of the honing was >done to the back of the irons. Where the back bevels were small >I flattened the backs to get rid of them. The big back-bevels >I just followed what was there. Now this is interesting. I've never seen a moulding plane with a back bevel. I've seen the recommendation to sharpen a moulding plane iron by honing the back, but lying flat as it's easy to do and helps to maintain the shape of the profile. As Scott points out, on something like a sidebead you'll probably harm the cutting action at the sides with a backbevel, if not ruin it completely. Paul ---- Start of Message 130237 (thread 50426) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-06 17:02:38 Subject: Re: back bevels Hi guys: Long ago I proposed using the term "flat" to describe the flat side of an iron or chisel--it seemed to me at the time that it would help a great deal to have an accurate term to describe the thing we're talking about. Since in nine out of ten planes, what most people call the "back" is in fact the "front" of the iron, some confusion can result. Either way, Paul, if you haven't seen a molding plane with a back bevel, you should come see mine. Most, if not all, molders I've got were sharpened up many times by honing the FLAT of the iron, and increasing the angle of attack somewhat. What most of the porch pontiffs have been talking about lately with this "back bevelling" thing is the same process...they're dispensing with the notion that the forward side of the iron in a plane needs to BE flat, and steepening the leading edge of the iron somewhat. and all the very best to you; GAM in Seattle A grizzly bear with a chainsaw-- now THERE's a killing machine---Homer Simpson --- Paul Pedersen wrote: > I've never seen a moulding plane with a back bevel. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130253 (thread 50426) ---- From: "Bill Ghio" Date: 2004-03-07 07:41:15 Subject: RE: back bevels At 09:21 AM 3/5/2004 -0700, Blake Ashley wrote: >So here is the question: if a back bevel can give you the effect of a >steeper pitch without changing the actual bedding angle, might this not >be a way to make molding planes more useful for the kind of woods used >in much furniture making? Scott Post - I've pondered this question a few times because since the very first time I took a cut with a molding plane I didn't understand why they cut so sweet even when the grain was less than straight. I think the answer might be in geometry. Most of the iron isn't cutting at the same angle as the bed. As the profile departs from the horizontal that part of the iron begins to approach a scraping cut. In fact, the sides of the round part of a bead profile are darn near to a pure scraping action. -- Darrell writes : >Almost all the molding plane irons I've sharpened have arrived >in my shop with back bevels on them already. Emprical evidence >from my shop indicates that the oldtimers did very little to >the profiles in the way of sharpening. Most of the honing was >done to the back of the irons. Where the back bevels were small >I flattened the backs to get rid of them. The big back-bevels >I just followed what was there. Now this is interesting. I've never seen a moulding plane with a back bevel. I've seen the recommendation to sharpen a moulding plane iron by honing the back, but lying flat as it's easy to do and helps to maintain the shape of the profile. As Scott points out, on something like a sidebead you'll probably harm the cutting action at the sides with a backbevel, if not ruin it completely. Paul ___________________ The porch works in mysterious ways...I was just thinking about raising this issue w/ respect to complex molders and here it is. I have found that H&R's, beads and simple molding profiles can be sharpened by honing the flat (back) of the blade. But recently I have been working w/ some complex molders and found them to have a back bevel. It appears to me that the more complex the shape, the more likely it is to have the back bevel. Could it be that creating the steeper pitch as Blake suggests has more value w/ the more complex and wider shapes? I have recently been working w/ a plane which gives a 2 inch profile, one part of which is vertical and almost 1/4 inch deep. As found, a slight back bevel extended across the more horizontal portions of the blade, but was absent from the vertical sections, which is consistent w/ Scott's proposition regarding scraping cuts. Just days after sharpening this plane, I bought two more (less complex and wide) and found both to have back bevels across the whole profile. Bill ++++ End of thread 50426 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50427 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130209 (thread 50427) ---- From: Louis Schmidt Date: 2004-03-05 21:25:28 Subject: In search of Gary Cavener Hi All, Will Gary Cavener please ping me off the list. Thank you Louis Schmidt ++++ End of thread 50427 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50428 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130210 (thread 50428) ---- From: Louis Schmidt Date: 2004-03-05 21:32:41 Subject: Any Gallots in Oxford MS? Hi All, I am considering a move to the hometown of Ole Miss and the inspiration of William Faulkner. None other than Oxford Mississippi! Any gallots from there or near there? Any advise about economy, tool availability, acceptance and what to expect from nearby(?) Memphis would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again all. Lou ++++ End of thread 50428 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50429 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130213 (thread 50429) ---- From: Louis Schmidt Date: 2004-03-06 00:17:39 Subject: WTB: Sandusky #92 Hollows 1, 3 & 9 Hi All, I am seeking hollowing planes made by the Sandusky Tool Co. (stamp "A" but will consider other stamps) in good+ or better condition. I seek the number 1, 3 & 9 hollows from the #92 hollows and rounds set. The "92" was generally stamped on the toe of the plane. Thanks Lou ++++ End of thread 50429 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50430 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130215 (thread 50430) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-06 01:26:38 Subject: OT: Magic Metal (offshoot from the Pewter Rings thread) Someone asked so I will post them here for everyone to see. Here's a typed excerpt from "Modern Chemical Magic" 1959, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 59-14380. The original hardcover I have cost 3.95 at the time of printing. I got it discarded from an old rural library -- a whole grocery brown bag full of books for a dollar if I remember correctly. pg 148 "Magical Metal As an interesting addition, the author has included in this book the formulas for two metal alloys that when prepared will melt in boiling water and may be held in the mount without danger of burning. These are the metals that resemble lead and are usually found as such in the repertoire of fire-eaters. It is not advisable that the novice try this effect as the danger of swallowing the melted metals offers a precarious problem. I Melt in a suitable dish bismuth metal, by weight, five ounces, lead metal, by weight, three ounces; tin metal, by weight, two ounces. II Melt in a suitable dish bismuth metal, by weight, eight ounces, lead metal, by weight, four ounces; tin metal, by weight two ounces; cadmium metal, by weight, two ounces. " I'm not sure what he means by mount. Maybe it was a typo and he means mouth because later he refers to fire-eating? For its time the book does seem almost blasphemous against the magician's code of not telling secrets because it has a huge amount of detail in it that assumes the book owner already knows what to do with these preparations in magic acts. The introduction is done by Harry Blackstone, the world famous magician. As a sidenote anyone who thinks these alloy formulas are just for fun are sadly mistaken. If not for this type of metallurgical knowledge we wouldn't have the safety of indoor fire sprinkler systems which use bismuth in them to detect heat levels under the boiling point of water. So I'm sure these can be experimented with and lowered even more if need be. Cadmium is a fascinating metal, too, and Cadium Sulfide (IIRC) is in large use today in every single motion light sensor, break beam alarms, garage door safety devices...etc. It is one of the few metal compounds that reacts to light by changing its electrical resistance. Hungry minds will enjoy this. ---- Start of Message 130231 (thread 50430) ---- From: Jack Kamishlian Date: 2004-03-06 13:10:15 Subject: Re: OT: Magic Metal (offshoot from the Pewter Rings thread) GGs, I'd be careful when melting metals like lead. The vapors produced are not entirely healthy. Good ventilation is a necessity. Cheers, Jack in Endwell, NY ---- Start of Message 130287 (thread 50430) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-08 08:28:43 Subject: Re: OT: Magic Metal (offshoot from the Pewter Rings thread) A similar low-melt alloy is used in gunsmiting to take casts of barrels without harming the temper. Upon cooling it shrinks allowing it to drop easily out of the barrel. And the shrink rate is known to a high degree of accuracy so the plug can be measured, a shrink factor applied, and an accurate measurement of the barrel thereby achieved. You can get it from Brownells. Make a cast of the inside of your mount just for fun. >>> "John Sawchak" 03/06/2004 12:26:38 AM >>> Someone asked so I will post them here for everyone to see. Here's a typed excerpt from "Modern Chemical Magic" 1959, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 59-14380. The original hardcover I have cost 3.95 at the time of printing. I got it discarded from an old rural library -- a whole grocery brown bag full of books for a dollar if I remember correctly. pg 148 "Magical Metal As an interesting addition, the author has included in this book the formulas for two metal alloys that when prepared will melt in boiling water and may be held in the mount without danger of burning. These are the metals that resemble lead and are usually found as such in the repertoire of fire-eaters. It is not advisable that the novice try this effect as the danger of swallowing the melted metals offers a precarious problem. I Melt in a suitable dish bismuth metal, by weight, five ounces, lead metal, by weight, three ounces; tin metal, by weight, two ounces. II Melt in a suitable dish bismuth metal, by weight, eight ounces, lead metal, by weight, four ounces; tin metal, by weight two ounces; cadmium metal, by weight, two ounces. " I'm not sure what he means by mount. Maybe it was a typo and he means mouth because later he refers to fire-eating? For its time the book does seem almost blasphemous against the magician's code of not telling secrets because it has a huge amount of detail in it that assumes the book owner already knows what to do with these preparations in magic acts. The introduction is done by Harry Blackstone, the world famous magician. As a sidenote anyone who thinks these alloy formulas are just for fun are sadly mistaken. If not for this type of metallurgical knowledge we wouldn't have the safety of indoor fire sprinkler systems which use bismuth in them to detect heat levels under the boiling point of water. So I'm sure these can be experimented with and lowered even more if need be. Cadmium is a fascinating metal, too, and Cadium Sulfide (IIRC) is in large use today in every single motion light sensor, break beam alarms, garage door safety devices...etc. It is one of the few metal compounds that reacts to light by changing its electrical resistance. Hungry minds will enjoy this. ++++ End of thread 50430 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50431 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130219 (thread 50431) ---- From: "Doug" Date: 2004-03-06 06:37:19 Subject: some of last year's projects Dear Esteemed Galoots, Since Jim Esten kindly set me up, I decided to post a couple more picks from last years projects. In keeping with the recent "tool box" thread, here are a couple: First, a finish carpenter's tool box done a al the "Tool Box from the 1940's" episode of St. Roy. Complete with "leather corner bumpers". If I ever get our friend to come back with her digital cam, I'll take some more pics of Daniel's tools. The bench is his, on the opposite side of the shop as mine. http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=388 Next is a smallish tote with compound angled dovetails that serves as my wifes "onion tote"...never know when your gonna need to bring those onions and taters along! :-) I've made three others along these lines--again, pics may sometime appear. http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=391 Next a shaker carrier that I made last fall, I think. I've since made 3 more, all for gifts. Those galoots interested in an intro to wood bending, this is a good project, since the handle is made of narrow enough stock that it bends readily, assuming of course that the grain is straight enough without too much grain runout and few flaws. While not really visible in the pic, the handle is carefully shaped with shaves and scrapers (Kelly Repro of the Millers falls no. 1 doing much of the inside curve work). A nice light weight tote, but too light for tools--except for the permanent ink pens from recent treads! http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=390 The final one is not in keeping with the tote theme, here is the "Tower of Rabble". My dad and I did this last spring. Nearly all of the planks were cross cut with my trusty Disston D8 7point. At first, Dad was dubious, but after he watched a bit, he commented that "you can really cut accurrately with that." Electrons were used, however...I got tired to "bit and bracing" the bolt holes and machining the slats. If you look ever so closely, hanging just above the X support is a little bird house--that was my little boy's first galoot project. An absolute ball! http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=389 Best to all Doug Brozovic Denton, Texas ++++ End of thread 50431 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50432 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130221 (thread 50432) ---- From: sepost@i... (Scott Post) Date: 2004-03-06 08:01:18 Subject: Re: back bevels (was Bedrock 605 . . .); > Blake Ashley wrote: > > Wooden molding planes seem mostly to have been made with a 45 degree > bedding angle. Some were made with steeper angles, but they seem to be > rare. If you are using these 45 degree planes for straight grained > wood, no problem. But if you want to use wood with interesting grain or > very hard tropical wood, what do you do? It seems to be pretty well > accepted that the steeper bedding angle will give better results in > tearout-prone wood. But who can afford to go find sets of York pitch > molding planes? I've pondered this question a few times because since the very first time I took a cut with a molding plane I didn't understand why they cut so sweet even when the grain was less than straight. I think the answer might be in geometry. Most of the iron isn't cutting at the same angle as the bed. As the profile departs from the horizontal that part of the iron begins to approach a scraping cut. In fact, the sides of the round part of a bead profile are darn near to a pure scraping action. -- Scott Post sepost@i... http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/ ++++ End of thread 50432 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50433 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130223 (thread 50433) ---- From: "Pete Bergstrom" Date: 2004-03-06 08:05:08 Subject: It's almost maple syrup season in MN, WI (was Re: [oldtools] ??? new forests) "Larry Marshall" wrote: > incidental in the scheme of things. For instance, the province in > which I live produces 80% of the maple syrup used in the world. > New Englanders don't like to believe that the stuff is produced > elsewhere but.... And so is the wood. Speaking of maple syrup... I spoke with a fellow near Menominee, Wisconsin this past week about when his maple syrup operation will be opening up, and he'll start boiling syrup on March 21, with peak production in the first week of April. Prices are pretty good when you buy syrup directly and you can get an additional discount by canning it yourself. I'm taking my two kids for their first visit this year. Pete (in St. Paul, Minnesota) ++++ End of thread 50433 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50434 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130224 (thread 50434) ---- From: Randy Roeder Date: 2004-03-06 08:44:10 Subject: Finding good chisels in Korea?? Hi, I'm taking a trip to Korea this summer and am trying to come up with an old tools angle on it. I got to thinking about chisels... Does anyone know if Korea makes quality chisels in the Japanese style? Or maybe one could buy Japanese chisels cheaply in Korea? I'd be looking for good stuff... Randy Roeder Repaint houses, not old tools. ++++ End of thread 50434 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50435 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130227 (thread 50435) ---- From: "Gary Katsanis" Date: 2004-03-06 12:18:14 Subject: Reusing Stanley Plane Irons (was Slight Exaggeration in Description?) Frank Sronce commented on an *Bay auction for a worn out Stanley plane blade. I have a few in similar condition and was thinking about usage, specifically, making either a marking knife or a chip carving knife. I understand that the older Stanley plane irons were laminated, but I don't know anything more than that. If I have an older iron, say post-SW (I've seen these called TmBB) but not with the curved top, do I need to make sure that my cutting edge is in a harder lamination? It seems to me that if part of the iron is hard and part is soft, I need a cutting edge in the hard part. Does anyone have more information or experience with this? Thanks, Gary K Close to Buffalo NY ----- Original Message ----- --snip, snip-- > > According to the seller, these parts (the iron and the lever cap) are in > good condition and just need a little cleaning up to become users again. --snip, snip-- > > http://tinyurl.com/2kgo4 > > Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ---- Start of Message 130232 (thread 50435) ---- From: "greg" Date: 2004-03-06 12:14:19 Subject: Re: Reusing Stanley Plane Irons (was Slight Exaggeration in Description?) > > It seems to me that if part of the iron is hard and part is soft, I > need a cutting edge in the hard part. Does anyone have more > information or experience with this? > > Thanks, > > Gary K > Close to Buffalo NY gently draw a file across one side then the other. see if it skitters across one and cuts the other? ++++ End of thread 50435 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50436 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130233 (thread 50436) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-06 15:22:12 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about Richard, standing in Hyde Park, was overheard saying : > There has been a plethora of postings to the list about > sharpening, and different ways to go about it. It really > isn't a surprise that the subject comes up again and again, > for it is the one skill which differentiates hand workers > from their tailed counterparts. I don't know about that, j**nt*rs and pl*n*rs require sharpening too. > Notice that I don't think the required skill has decreased > much with motorised wheels - the skill is surely in knowing > when to stop, not in holding metal against a rotating surface. A wheel doesn't have to be motorized to be useful. It is a lot easier to hold an object still than to move it around while trying to keep it in a single orientation. > All you need to know, and remember is that you want those two > surfaces to come together and meet. There is lots of rubbish > hotly discussed about hollow grinding, dubbing over, rounding > your bevel (bezel) angles, and lots more. I find this pretty insulting, for starters. I find all discussion interesting since it leads us to better understanding. Different systems have different advantages and disadvantages and I'd like to be aware of what they are so I can choose a system that fits my needs, to my taste. > Disregard it all. If you came this far, you have the > intuition to realise that you need just the two surfaces. Hopefully you have enough brains to realize that this is a gross oversimplification. You might want to start with the dimensions of these two surfaces. All metal requires effort to remove it. Anything that might reduce the amount of metal involved will necessarily reduce the amount of effort needed. There are ways to quickly remove most of the middle portion of one of these surfaces, thereby decreasing the effort needed to polish them up. > All the discussion that comes about is how to make two > meeting surfaces easily and quickly. Being human, we > each defend our way of doing things, I guess we'll have to forgive Richard for being human as well... > Well, it may be. It may not. If you sell them, they're best. > If you buy them, they're best. What if one has tried most of them and figured out, through experiment, that a particular way - not yours - is best ? Should we let every newbie on this list go through years of experiment in a vacuum, or should we share what we've learned to perhaps shorten the time they'll waste learning instead of producing something useful ? >But this isn't about systems. It should be. > With the advent of coated abrasives, it's very feasible to > sharpen tools with throw away abrasive. I've always considered oldtools-like people to be a bit off to the side of our mass-market throw-away society. > The trouble with this 'freehand' method is that it is very, > very difficult to maintain a constant angle as you rub, both > as the stroke moves along the stone, and between strokes. No kidding. > Personally, I think everyone should set about practicing to > be able to sharpen by hand. So, we save time by using throwaway abrasive, but we'll loose lots more trying to learn to hold the blade perfectly through complicated manoeuvers. > But back at our plane blade, procure some abrasive sheets in > varying grades. Aluminium Zirconia is said to be 'the best' - > it's a cloth backed grade in a blue colour made by Norton, > in various grades. And how much is it a sheet ? How many sheets do you think are contained in whetsone, or in a grinding wheel ? > Now you'll need some sort of device for holding the blade at > a constant angle. This is more opportunity for gizmo sellers. > We're doing this at minimum cost though, so make a sharpening > box. It's not a gizmo, it's a box. And here I thought we were supposed to learn how to hold it freehand. > To avoid doing quite so much work, we only make the bevel angle > on the coarse grit. If you look at a plane or chisel blade, you > see two areas of bevel. Maybe on yours, not on mine. > Improve on the 'lump of dowel' I described for the sharpening box. > A simple clamp by arranging a bolt with wing nut through a runner, > a slotted runner for chisels - all easy to conceive and make - and > simple, and cheap to start up, and pretty much guaranteed to give > good results. More gizmos. I'm not against gizmos myself, but I won't tell someone not to use them in the same breath. Paul (wondering what this kind of discussion sounds like to a newbie) Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130243 (thread 50436) ---- From: Joe Macak Date: 2004-03-06 19:19:03 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about Hi Paul I don't know, I've been using most of the same 'scary-sharp' abrasives for a number of years now. It's not like I use the paper once and then throw it away--I'm much too cheap for that. I really have not seen much degradation after using them for so long. cheers joe in cool, overcast seattle On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 03:22:12PM -0500, Paul Pedersen wrote: > > I've always considered oldtools-like people to be a bit > off to the side of our mass-market throw-away society. > > ---- Start of Message 130247 (thread 50436) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-07 02:41:48 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about On the topic of sharpening I know there are a lot of resources out there, most of which are involved in self promotion of their own goods, but I did run across this 5 part article about sharpening that may miss some of the finer details but does a really good job of covering the general overview of different types of stones as well as a cross reference table of US grits compared to Japanese water stones. I had no idea until I read this they were two different sets of numbers and I consider myself a fairly experienced sharpener. I think this article would be ideal for a beginner who may have dabbled with sharpening but hasn't committed to one system or kind of stones just yet. It is mildly scientific and demystifies the differences in stones to a great extent. But what I like best about this is that it covers chisels well which I am more interest in than the planes. [watch me get shot for that one!] Also this is relevant to the recent thread where we discussed sharpening curved blades. If you click on the free plans and articles section within this web site there is a great wealth of information there on things that seems far more relevant to the oldtools and somewhat galootish ways of handling things. They cover the oil finishes and the waxes, which I like because I feel it leaves the person more in touch with the wood rather than a clear plastic poly coating. They hardly cover shellac, however. There are some gorgeous examples of carving and some quick history. However it looks like the site is made for selling their p*w*r*d chisel. I never even knew such a beast was made until I stumbled across this link. Anyway, I offer it for what it is. http://www.arbortech.com.au/articles/029.html ---- Start of Message 130248 (thread 50436) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-07 02:43:29 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about Oh yeah, the other reason I posted that is that the carving community is much more aware of how to handle green wood and there are some articles in there about how to prevent splitting and so forth. There is really a lot to explore there. ---- Start of Message 130285 (thread 50436) ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-03-08 14:34:02 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about Paul's heckling makes some sharp points, as he surgically dismembers my last posting joint by joint, starting with a brilliant one liner of scene setting .. >Richard, standing in Hyde Park, was overheard saying : >> There has been a plethora of postings to the list about >> sharpening, and different ways to go about it. It really >> isn't a surprise that the subject comes up again and again, >> for it is the one skill which differentiates hand workers >> from their tailed counterparts. >I don't know about that, j**nt*rs and pl*n*rs require >sharpening too. They do, and I wouldn't attempt to sharpen mine freehand. (huge snippage. . ) >> To avoid doing quite so much work, we only make the bevel angle >> on the coarse grit. If you look at a plane or chisel blade, you >> see two areas of bevel. >Maybe on yours, not on mine. And yet all of my books refer to 2 angles. >> Improve on the 'lump of dowel' I described for the sharpening box. >> A simple clamp by arranging a bolt with wing nut through a runner, >> a slotted runner for chisels - all easy to conceive and make - and >> simple, and cheap to start up, and pretty much guaranteed to give >> good results. >More gizmos. I'm not against gizmos myself, but I won't tell >someone not to use them in the same breath. A 'gizmo' is paid for - a workshop made jig /sharpening box is not >Paul (wondering what this kind of discussion sounds like to a newbie) I'm responding to acknowledge the value of Paul's points. And also to point out that my intention is to remind everyone that the pro's and cons of bevels, hollow grinds, diamond, oil, water, ceramic, abrasive cloth or whatever else, is an interesting (and sometimes heated) sideshow, when all we need to do is something very simple. The newbie's Paul refers to need to know, firstly, what a sharp tool is. Normally, this knowledge would (have) been acquired by being in close contact with working craftsmen. Nowadays it is less likely to be so, and no amount of reading or video's is the same as taking up a sharp chisel or plane and discovering the pressure needed to make it cut. There are now many courses which seek to right this. All of them devote significant time to sharpening. But if you're alone in your condo, and you've followed the book, and produced an edge which is sharper than anything you've ever produced to date, (yet which may not be 'sharp) you have nothing to judge it by. Which is why I believe we should first explain and teach what we need to achieve - the simplicity of the two meeting surfaces, and then leave the neophyte to evaluate the different methods available. My Grandfather used to use the kitchen doorstep for sharpening the carving knife - that would have cost nowt. But all the hi tech stuff we have today is expensive, and as we so often note here, what suits one man's way of working may not suit another. I may or may not need something with which I can jig long planer blades to produce a dead straight and accurate edge. I may prefer to use my hand grinders. My choice, my results. But our neophyte needs a sharpening system first of all to produce a result, and cloth backed abrasive is an inexpensive entry point. As someone pointed out, it is perhaps not as throw-away as it may appear, and given a means of maintaining a chosen angle on each stroke such as the ultra cheap 'box' arrangement I described, then it should be possible for anyone to arrive at a sharp edge, with suitable angle. Now, I'm very happy to discuss and learn from everyone here as to alternative ways of sharpening straight, crowned, curved, profiled, low angle, high angle, thick, thin, or any other sort of blade. Whether A1, O1, Sintered, Cryo or any other steel, and how the choice of abrasive, its presentation in block, wheel, or powder, fixed or moving, and the means of jigging the tool - hand, toolrest, clamp and so on all have their advantages for given work, but I just don't want newcomers to feel they have to have special benches and expensive sets of stuff before they can sharpen a chisel. 'What we do is simple, what we do is simple' Richard Wilson The beginners Yorkshire Galoot Trying to remove some mystique for newcomers. . . . ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 130288 (thread 50436) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-08 07:47:53 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about On Monday, March 8, 2004, at 06:34 AM, Richard.Wilson@s... wrote: > > Paul's heckling makes some sharp points, as he surgically dismembers my > last posting joint by joint, starting with a brilliant one liner of > scene > setting .. > I gotta go along with Richard on this one. When I started trying to sharpen tools I used oil stones because that was what I had, and what I thought was the only way to do it. After a while I discovered water stones, but I never fell in love with them. Later still I tried ScarySharp. Still no Cupie Doll! I made up a machine with numerous wheels in numerous shapes, and for a while I thought that was sharpening nirvana. But all these methods were too time consuming to suit me. I want to use my tools, not work on them. Unlike some, my tools serve a genuine purpose: I make stuff with them. I finally found a sharpening method which is fast, and which gives me the razor sharp edges I want. A bench grinder with a decent wheel and tool rest on one side and a hard felt wheel on the other side. I hollow grind my tools and then shape them on a diamond sharpening plate. Then I go to the hard felt wheel with green compound and I polish the bevel and the back. Admittedly this requires a little experience to get the technique down pat, but it is FAST! Does it dub the edge? Of course it does! Does it matter? Not that I can tell. Sharpened tools, quickly. That is what it is all about for me. And if the tool needs touching up I can go right back to the hard felt wheel and do that in 10 seconds, then back to work. Slight back bevels? Of course! Does that make any difference in the way the tool performs? Again, not that I can tell. There is a huge difference between what you NEED and what you WANT. And happy woodworking depends on learning those differences. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130297 (thread 50436) ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 2004-03-08 13:37:24 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about At 02:41 AM 3/7/2004 -0600, John Sawchak wrote: >I never even knew such a beast [ a p*w*r*d chisel ] was made until I ... Hmmmmph. A clumsy imitation of a pneumatic chisel. I guess I'm in the I like chisels more than handplanes camp also. Chisels are undemanding - no ceremony and no worship. ---- Start of Message 130312 (thread 50436) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-08 13:26:25 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about If I had a set of those Japanese Ink Pattern chisels, I would worship them. >>> Jim Nelson 03/08/2004 11:37:24 AM >>> At 02:41 AM 3/7/2004 -0600, John Sawchak wrote: >I never even knew such a beast [ a p*w*r*d chisel ] was made until I ... Hmmmmph. A clumsy imitation of a pneumatic chisel. I guess I'm in the I like chisels more than handplanes camp also. Chisels are undemanding - no ceremony and no worship. ---- Start of Message 130350 (thread 50436) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-03-09 07:42:08 Subject: RE: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about : -----Original Message----- : From: Jim Thompson [mailto:jdthompsonca@s...] : Sent: 08 March 2004 15:48 : To: oldtools : Cc: oldtools : Subject: Re: [oldtools] Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about : : Slight back bevels? Of course! Does that make any difference in the : way the tool performs? Again, not that I can tell. In regard to plane blades, probably not. For carving gouges, a positive advantage. For a chisel, when paring some control can be lost since to pare a surface the handle will need to be lifted to make the backface form an angle with said surface. On my web site (what yet again, some might say?) - Sharpening Notes - Some Scientific Light on Sharpening, is a description of a technique involving minimum fuss. Hardly anyone gives it credence, but it has now worked for several year as my standard technique. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 130356 (thread 50436) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-09 04:53:21 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about On Monday, March 8, 2004, at 11:42 PM, Jeff Gorman wrote: > > For a chisel, when paring some control can be lost since to pare a > surface the handle will need to be lifted to make the backface form an > angle with said surface. > I should have mentioned that I don't back bevel my bench chisels. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130382 (thread 50436) ---- From: Bill Kasper Date: 2004-03-09 08:32:19 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about this is what manny hernandez emphasized this saturday at the sharpening class he gave to omi chandiramani and i (we wee lucky that neal white was also "teaching", so it was a fine "great teacher":student ratio!). plane irons can have back bevels because it increases the effective cutting angle, and since the plane is a "jig" to hold the iron (my words) there's no issue with control if the blade is sharp. with paring chisels he emphasized the backs should be perfectly flat, or as perfect as you can get them. they can have hollows, so long as the majority of the flat area is the reference surface for the edge. no back bevel, or you have to consistently lift the chisel to cut and you can't be as consistent with that as you can by riding the chisel on the surface of the cut wood. and just a quick note about the class: it was outstanding. manny is a generous and savvy teacher and woodworker, and the class gave me an appreciation of what *sharp* is...something i'd not fully appreciated before. thus, i have a target to aim for when i sharpen my irons. we used his japanese waterstones, but the methods are applicable to both oilstones and scarysharp. i think one thing on my purchase list is the diamond flattening plate from shapton. wow! and to any other bags, if manny is offering a class at his shop, it's an outstanding opportunity to learn from an intelligent woodworker who is very giving of his time and energy (now, about that holtey door prize...lol!). one other thing. i went back and reread david charlesworth's treatise on sharpening in his first volume of "furniture making", and it contains largely the same information as we learned at manny's. i'd read it before, but it wasn't *clear* to me. it is now. and, manny, charlesworth emphasises to use the ruler trick *only* on plane blades, never on chisels. best, bill felton, ca On Mar 9, 2004, at 4:53 AM, Jim Thompson wrote: > On Monday, March 8, 2004, at 11:42 PM, Jeff Gorman wrote: > >> For a chisel, when paring some control can be lost since to pare a >> surface the handle will need to be lifted to make the backface form an >> angle with said surface. > > I should have mentioned that I don't back bevel my bench chisels. ++++ End of thread 50436 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50437 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130235 (thread 50437) ---- From: Timothy Collins Date: 2004-03-06 15:34:50 Subject: webster flea finds Finally went with my dad to the webster (florida) flea market my parents have been telling me about for a couple of years. Truly huge, and only on Monday's from 7-12 AM. (the parents are snowbirds, spend winter in kissimee area). fair number of people selling tools, usual mix of new crap and old rust. lots of breast brace drills, auger bits. Several nice slicks at one place (with shovel handles stuck into them) but price was way high. Came away with a complete Stanely 78 (with fence, depth gauge, nicker) "in original box" which promptly fell appart. ($37) Also a "B K Baker cast steel" socket mortise chisle ($20) Yankee drill (130A and 131, $5 and $7). tim ++++ End of thread 50437 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50438 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130236 (thread 50438) ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-03-06 16:42:20 Subject: Visit to a galoot Today a friend at work took me to see a friend of hers who she said has some old tools. I thought, ok, sure. Let's see if this person has anything. The friend turned out to be Ed Hobbs. For anyone who's ever been to the MWTCA meet in Raleigh knows Ed. He hosts it. I also saw a great collection of pedal-powered machines he has including three different Barnes scroll saws, a couple of lathe, a morticing machine and more. He also has a very nice collection of all kinds of hand tools upstairs. A lot fun was had in four hours of nothing but tool talk. A first for me. Ed was gracious, generous with his time and even gave me a copy of one of his reprints, "The Modern Wood Finisher" from 1904 and leant me a #2 so I can try it out and decide if I want to get one. If anyone has the opportunity to get down to Raleigh for the Area Q meet sometime in July, I recommend it. I'll be there. I'll also be at the meet in April outside Charlotte. See you there! AAAndrew Having tool fun in Durham and Raleigh, North Carolina. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 50438 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50439 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130239 (thread 50439) ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-03-07 02:03:18 Subject: Advance No 12 post drill If any of you gentle galoots are knowledgeable about this drill I kneed to know what could be wrong with the feed system and what might fix it. Also what a fair price might be. I have an opportunity to by one which seems to be in good order except for the feed. It's just a lot more money than I'm used to spending on tools. It is a really honking big sucker and very neat looking though I might have to reinforct a wall to hang it. Please ping me off line if you want as this may not be relitave to many listers. Steve ++++ End of thread 50439 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50440 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130240 (thread 50440) ---- From: "Walt Cheever" Date: 2004-03-06 20:26:52 Subject: WTB Lever Cap Gentle Galoots, a minor disaster... Just started to clean up an old #7 Stanley Jointer of quite old vintage, and the lever on the lever cap came off in my hands. Old crack, just waiting for a victim. So, I need a new lever cap. The plane is an old one, Type 11 (1910-1920), I think. The cap has the keyhole shaped hole (no kidney). To be true to type, it shouldn't have a logo--but I'm a user not a collector. I'm not fussy about plating either--the busted one didn't look to have much. Would appreciate any help out there. The good news is that I spent part of the afternoon sharpening and tuning a 50 year old jack plane and it looks good and planes like a dream. Best shavings I ever got. (Not contest material, but respectable.) I've pressed a couple in my memory book. Thanks. Walt Cheever Who passed up the chance to use old hand tools yesterday when his driveway was full of wet snow, fired up the little Craftsman single stage blower and was very pleased how much snow a pint of gasoline would throw. ++++ End of thread 50440 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50441 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130244 (thread 50441) ---- From: Date: 2004-03-06 22:41:53 Subject: A Couple of What Is Its? Hey Everybody! I've got a couple of more tools that I have no idea what they are. Can you please help me? Blacksmith tool? www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060232.JPG Sheet Metal Shears? www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060360.JPG www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060368.JPG Plow Tool? www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060412.JPG Doug Piper ---- Start of Message 130245 (thread 50441) ---- From: "Bret Rochotte" Date: 2004-03-07 00:07:02 Subject: RE: A Couple of What Is Its? Hello; The claw-like tongs look like the ones down at the hardware store in the bulk nail bin. The shears look like shears, other than that I dunno. Bret -----Original Message----- From: Doug Piper [mailto:doug.piper@w...]On Behalf Of doug@h... Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 10:42 PM To: oldtools Subject: [oldtools] A Couple of What Is Its? Hey Everybody! I've got a couple of more tools that I have no idea what they are. Can you please help me? Blacksmith tool? www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060232.JPG Sheet Metal Shears? www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060360.JPG www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060368.JPG Plow Tool? www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060412.JPG Doug Piper ---- Start of Message 130257 (thread 50441) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-07 10:11:50 Subject: Re: A Couple of What Is Its? Hi Doug & Bret & All, I agree with Bret about the nail tongs and the shears. Re the wrench thing - some like that were special purpose ones made to be sold with a machine or device that had nuts in the various sizes on the wrench; some of those were marked in ways that gives a clue to what the device is. Others were simply made (I think) as general purpose multi-size wrenches. I don't know how you can tell the difference if it's not marked. Best Wishes, Bob ++++ End of thread 50441 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50442 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130246 (thread 50442) ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-03-06 21:16:24 Subject: Should I buy this No 7 type 18?? I think it is a type 18 Stanley #7 non corugated. I have posted two photos I took in the store, should have taken a couple more. The blade has no pitting on the front, I didn't remove the cap iron, just the = lever cap. The sole is patined, but not pitted. Quite a bit of life left in = the blade, but would likley buy a hock or LN at some point soon. I currently = have a #6C bought from a fellow galloot. I didn't go over it with extreme = care, but no obvious flaws. The blade, as you make out in the photo has made in usa on it, the lateral = adjuster might make this a different type as I was thinking vertical should be = like: A B C but some other features didn't make sense if I went down that path. I did not photograph the adjuster nut http://arwomack01.home.att.net/images/stanley_7a.jpg http://arwomack01.home.att.net/images/stanley_7b.jpg These are about 1.7 meg files, each. The plane was $68.00, I didn't make an offer, likely could get it down a few = dollars at the antique store. Epson Inkjet Printer FAQ: http://welcome.to/epson-inkjet ---- Start of Message 130259 (thread 50442) ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-03-07 15:15:24 Subject: re: Should I buy this No 7 type 18?? My two cents would be that thats too much for a plane that new in that shape. You could make a good user from the looks of it but I'm too cheap and too much or a low knob freak to pay more than thirty five or fourty bucks for one like that. I would get by with the six which is a better plane than some claim till I found a better deal. Steve ---- Start of Message 130300 (thread 50442) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-08 18:54:06 Subject: re: Should I buy this No 7 type 18?? I've gotten better looking ones on e-bay plus shipping for less. Just gotta make sure you get good looks in the pics and be patient. Determine what you're willing to pay ahead of time and don't go over that amount. Don't be shy about asking for more pics and info from the seller. Jerry ++++ End of thread 50442 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50443 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130249 (thread 50443) ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-03-07 01:16:28 Subject: Q: Electrocution anode? As I'm considering trying this out and poking around the web, ran across this warning about using stainless steel as an anode, http://www.oldengine.org/members/billd/stainless-steel-electrodes.htm (in short, chromates in solution are a by-product and are considered hazmat.) I'm not chemist and haven't yet seen anything of the sort in the archives, so this message has two purposes: a warning if true, and a call for clarification if not. Aside from possible toxicity, are there advantages to different metals? Does the anode just have to be different from that being cleaned? If cleaning a steel saw, is re-bar (steel) or copper better? Cheers, Kyle Accardi give blood, sharpen tools ---- Start of Message 130250 (thread 50443) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-07 04:46:40 Subject: RE: Q: Electrocution anode? I'm by no means a metallurgical expert but my dad did get me interested in this to some degree when I was younger and I have done considerable reading over the years so I can testify to a few points. Yes, stainless steel does use the elemental metal chromium to retain its rustless and stainless ability (coincidentally I have read that there is cheap stainless steel out there that does have such low amounts of chromium in it that it can rust, though I personally have never seen it). It is fairly significant.... for some reason "up to 17 percent chromium" pops out of my mind. And I know that some of the chromium compounds can be pretty toxic. This is why CCA -- green pressure treated lumber was recently banned due to its Chromium Copper Arsenate, once again IIRC. As to whether toxic chromium compounds are formed in that electrolytic reaction is for someone with more knowledge than me. I might be able to figure it out if I dug through a stack of nearby college level chemistry books I have but even then I don't think I could really take into account the full reality of the large mix of elements that really is in stainless steel. Each one is slightly different, some with different components and some can have effects only a thoroughly skilled metallurgical expert would know about. For instance, platinum being a catalyst in H202 (Hydrogen Peroxide) used everyday by contact lens wearers. In the case of a 3% household of standard hydrogen peroxide the amount of explosive gases given off would be very minor but could be extremely dangerous in a larger, more concentrated solution. My point here being that what if one of those other tiny tiny percentages of an elemental material in the stainless steel alloy act as a catalyst to produce the dangerous compound you are worrying about? So until I knew otherwise I would take the gentleman's advice about avoiding stainless steel just to be on the safe side. I doubt you are gaining much if the reaction can be done with other suitable and less expensive metals anyway. Why risk even the possibility if other things work just fine? I got a huge belly laugh out of the guy's tribute to Gore on his electrolysis page. Gone, but not forgotten. > [Original Message] > From: Kyle Accardi > As I'm considering trying this out and poking around the web, ran across > this warning about using stainless steel as an anode, > > http://www.oldengine.org/members/billd/stainless-steel-electrodes.htm ---- Start of Message 130256 (thread 50443) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-07 07:09:35 Subject: Re: Q: Electrocution anode? I saw that page. Looked like the guy was using a dc arc welder or somesuch to do Caterpillar or steam locomotive engine blocks! Kidding, but, High amperage, in other words. The 2ga battery clamps are kind of a giveaway. A hand tool responds pretty well for me at 2 amps since I'm not in a rush and don't like the look of overcooked tools anyway, so I'm not terribly worried. The fat stainless plumbing union I use hasn't lost much mass in years of intermittant use. I've never seen yellow dyed water and nothing I ever poured it on has died, including me. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130260 (thread 50443) ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-03-07 15:22:44 Subject: re: Q: Electrocution anode? Kyle The whole point too stanless as an anode is how slowly it erodes. I generaly use big old files or rasps that are too rusty to use for anything else. Tweny five cents to half a buck at a flea and I get close to a year out of one even though my tank runs most of the time when I'm home. That way you have nothing too worry about except in the winter when SWMBOB wants to know what the ugly stain on the snow is from. Steve ++++ End of thread 50443 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50444 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130252 (thread 50444) ---- From: "Dennis Yanan" Date: 2004-03-07 12:17:23 Subject: What is it about this obsession? GG's: A general philisophical question. I'm sitting here holding my 6 month old, and wondering how I woiuld explain to him the following question: What is it about this hobby/obsession, or any hobby in general, that compels us to do things we would be unwilling to do for our paying job? I ask this because for the past two weekends, I have gotten up obnoxiously early in the AM, or stayed up extrememly late at night, so that i could go down to my workshop and make sawdust. Now, i frequently need to get out of bed at the same time for work, but for some reason, when I'm going to work, i will lie in bed for a significant period of time before moving, while this morning, I practically jumped out of bed when the alarm went off. What's wrong with us? Reason for getting out of bed/staying up late - I'm building a vanity for the Bathroom renovation I started Oct. 2002. I'll try to post pictures when finished (if ever). ---- Start of Message 130254 (thread 50444) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-07 07:08:55 Subject: RE: What is it about this obsession? You explain to the youngster that there are lot of things in this world which are stressful; #1) Jobs -- where the goal is so big that one often never feels an individual sense of accomplishment. Working with hand tools really makes up for this. #2) Money -- like planes and saws and chisels and clamps no one ever has enough no matter how much time is spent on #1 #3) Relationships -- #2 can't provide happiness in #3 but #1 can rob you of #3 And if the youngster is still looking at you with that slightly tilted head like they don't understand then be absolutely unmerciful and brutal and tell them the honest truth; Wood and metal does not talk back. Neither does rust. [ If, however, it starts to you have been spending too much time in the shop.] He says with a smile on his face. > From: Dennis Yanan > GG's: > > A general philisophical question. I'm sitting here holding my 6 month old, and wondering how I woiuld explain to him the following question: What is it about this hobby/obsession, or any hobby in general, that compels us to do things we would be unwilling to do for our paying job? ---- Start of Message 130258 (thread 50444) ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-03-07 15:05:54 Subject: re: What is it about this obsession? Dennis I think that you could find as many reasons as there are list members. Things from the very complex like the desire to create or finding a new or new to you way of doing something. For others its an urge to connect to the past. It can be suductive simply decause you don't have to do it, the bills get paid and the kids get food wheather you make shavings or not. Course you might want to avoid these questions alltogether less you find that you are a crazed, momomanicial, irrational shell of a human being like many of us are. I'm not complaining about my insanity but Beware This Way Lies Madness. Steve Who is finishing a lot of little projects since SWMBOB and SWMBOB in training are gone for the day ---- Start of Message 130262 (thread 50444) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-07 10:51:35 Subject: Re: What is it about this obsession? Hi Dennis & All, I don't really have an answer to the question Dennis raised, but I sort of wondered about the same thing after I retired - when things change. As most should know by now, I was never a woodworker in the senso of making furniture or such. But I did do such homeowner things as strip a kitchen to the bare walls and rebuild it, enclose a porch, finish a rec room in the basement, rewire the whole house, yard/garden work, etc. All done evenings and weekends while I was working and I still had time for pursuing my tool collecting, researching the tools, writing articles about them, keeping detailed records, and other non-tool things like extensive reading, creating puzzles, etc. But after I retired, I found that I didn't seem to have time to do half those things I used to do - leading me to wonder where I had ever found the time to go to work. The fairly obvious answer is that I no longer bounded out of bed early in the morning to get started on even the regular things - let alone the extras. So I guess I can tell Dennis that if he waits until he retires, the questiton will go away - or change form anyway. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130263 (thread 50444) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-07 17:34:24 Subject: Re: What is it about this obsession? ROTFLMAO The one really good thing about a job is that, at least in my case, it makes me get up much earlier than I would like to. The good thing is that I get used to getting up early during the week, so weekends have more hours in them. Hours to spend chasing down tools, working on tools, and doing enough of the Honey-Do list to keep LOML happy. And even some time to spend on the net, looking for tools, info, or just BSing around. As to why we are willing to do more for our hobby than our day job, hey, this we do for ourselves because we enjoy it. Really simple. Like Christmas morning to kids. Even the ones who normally sleep half the day away if allowed, will be up before the crack of dawn to see what Santa brought. And this stuff gives us a chance to stretch our brain, unlike most jobs. Who woulda thought I'd become interested in metallurgy or any number of other topics based on an enjoyment of woodworking? ---- Start of Message 130265 (thread 50444) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-07 14:17:58 Subject: Re: What is it about this obsession? Hi Jerry & All, I can't resist Jerry's comments about getting up early as an excuse to tell an old war story. From ages 13-17, all thru high school, I used to get up at 4 AM and deliver milk for 2 1/2 hours before going to school or to my Summer daytime job. When I went into the Army out of high school, most of the guys in basic wailed and moaned about having to get up at 5:30 - 6, but sleeping that late seemed like heaven to me. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130277 (thread 50444) ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-03-07 17:53:35 Subject: Re: Re: What is it about this obsession? Hold on now, Jerry. I also delivered milk when I was a kid - just a FEW (?) years ago. I didn't mind the delivering, I just hated the milking. I considered myself a cowboy, not a farmer, and I knew Gene Autry would never get so low as to milk a cow. Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Palmer" To: "oldtools" Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 4:41 PM Subject: Re:[oldtools] Re:What is it about this obsession? > Delivering Milk, huh, Bob. Sorta puts an age on you. > > LOL > > Jerry ++++ End of thread 50444 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50445 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130255 (thread 50445) ---- From: Date: 2004-03-07 08:51:49 Subject: What Vintage and Type is this Old Stanley No. 45? Would one of you experts help me identify the vintage and type of this old Stanley No.45? www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060308.JPG www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060310.JPG www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060314.JPG www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060317.JPG www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060322.JPG Doug Piper ++++ End of thread 50445 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50446 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130266 (thread 50446) ---- From: "Dan Clermont" Date: 2004-03-07 19:31:59 Subject: Saint James Bay Castings Thanks to all who responded to my inquiry about purcahsing lever caps for infill planes. I may make my own lever cap or I may buy a complete casting from Bob at Saint James Bay including the lever cap for $50. I do have access to a milling machine to open the mouth up so that won't be a problem. My question is how are these casting to work with and have many of you bought a casting and decided it was too much work. It sounds easy and cheap enough if I decided it wasn't going to work for me or the mouth was too wide it was only $50 plus blade and infill. Thinking about it, Dan Clermont in Burnaby ++++ End of thread 50446 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50447 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130267 (thread 50447) ---- From: "don goldenhersh" Date: 2004-03-07 19:29:53 Subject: more or less trees?? Dear gentle galoots ,,I have heard bantied about in the nursery trade in the past is the factoid that in the usa more wood grows each year than is cut.I hope that helps clearup this question.And I bet on a whole it's true.The idea that there are more trees than at the turn of the century is probably true since so much of the recent development in this country has been in areas ,like the southwest, where there were not a lot of trees to cut down as the east reforested.Thanks!!Don Goldenhersh in spring time missouri,,oh glorious!! ---- Start of Message 130269 (thread 50447) ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-03-07 15:23:50 Subject: Re: more or less trees?? >I have heard bantied about in the nursery trade in the past is the factoid that in the usa more wood >grows each year than is cut.I hope that helps clearup this question.And I bet on a whole it's true.The >idea that there are more trees than at the turn of the century is probably true since so much of the >recent development in this country has been in areas ,like the southwest, where there were not a lot >of trees to cut down as the east reforested. I should probably let sleeping dogs lie, but as I sit and wait for a bunch of 6 year old boys to show up at our house for GIT#1's birthday party - I am probably a little delirious.... Having grown up in PA, I was very suprised a number of years ago when I learned that most of the forest land in northern PA was once clear-cut. At a number of places along Rt. 6 (in northern PA) - I remember seeing amazing photo's of the (now forested) hills in the area completely clear cut. In fact, they claim Williamsport, PA (now home of the Little League World Series) was once the "lumber capital of the world." The pictures of log flows down the Sesquehanna (spelling?) are also impressive. I know of only a couple of "virgin stands" of timber in that area and it is amazing how different they are from the current forests. They are dominanted by very large white pines and the hardwoods are slow growth trees that grow in the shade of the pines. Does this matter? Well, from a woodworking point of view it reemphasizes that the wood of 150+ years ago, were somewhat different from the wood of today. Regarding, "more wood grows each year than is cut" - I don't doubt this is true, but I would guess most of those trees are trees of little interest to most Galoots (ie. trees for paper products and construction lumber). But, I wouldn't predict any shortage of hardwoods in the foreseeable future - just price increases as their use moves from the mainstream - and perhaps some shift in what is available. On a related note, a while ago there was a discussion regarding apple wood. Although, I think the subject was beat to death, while searching for something else I stumbled upon this link. http://www.iswonline.com/wwp/wom/apple.shtml I think it was stated before, but the big news (to me) is that most orchards now are comprised of dwarf trees - which really don't work for lumber so there is a lot less apple wood now than there used to be... Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ++++ End of thread 50447 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50448 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130268 (thread 50448) ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-03-07 13:38:40 Subject: Jack Birky hello Hi Jack Please ping me sorry about the intrusion ontp the Porch guys :( T ++++ End of thread 50448 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50449 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130272 (thread 50449) ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-03-07 16:22:54 Subject: Unknown Router Galooti, I acquired a router recently, that I can't identify. Check the last two pictures at this location: http://tinyurl.com/34fl7 One shows the router by itself. The other shows it sitting by an old Stanley #71 to show size. It is slightly smaller than the Stanley. The cutter was craftsman made - a piece of square bar stock with a piece at the end bent up and twisted. Unfortunately, the twist didn't make it far enough for the cutter to be facing straight forward. In addition, the cutter part is so thin it is unusable. The knobs are held on by screws through the bottom. The cutter holding attachment is very like Stanley, but the newer Stanley cutters (with the depth adjustment feature) are slightly too big to fit. The old non-adjustable cutters fit, but I only have one of them, and it is in my old #71. Anyone recognize this router? Anyone have a spare 1/4 or 1/2 inch Stanley cutter without the adjusting slot that they would like to sell? [For those not paying attention, that is a driveby WTB.] Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ---- Start of Message 130273 (thread 50449) ---- From: JTWad@a... Date: 2004-03-07 17:41:13 Subject: Re: Unknown Router Frank Sronce said: << I acquired a router recently, that I can't identify. >> Looks like a home-cast job to me, even without the twisty cutter. I have a few craftsman-made routers--some are quite well done. Sometimes it's obvious what the model was (Stanley or Preston, usually); sometimes not--at least to me. This one has a sort of cousin-to-Stanley look about it. John Wadsworth, in Delhi, NY (where it's gonna snow again, darn it) ---- Start of Message 130275 (thread 50449) ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-03-07 17:31:49 Subject: Re: Unknown Router John, You may be correct. The cutter and thumb screw are definitely homemade. Someone took a 1/4 inch round head machine screw and filed the head flat on two sides, down to about the thickness of the screw body. Then they brazed/soldered on a flat piece of metal to make it into a thumb screw. If the router is craftsman-made, they did a very professional job on everything except the screw and cutter - one or both of which could have been replaced later by someone else. Enjoy your snow. It is 70F here right now and nothing but sunshine. Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Unknown Router > Frank Sronce said: > > << I acquired a router recently, that I can't identify. >> > > Looks like a home-cast job to me, even without the twisty cutter. I have a > few craftsman-made routers--some are quite well done. Sometimes it's obvious > what the model was (Stanley or Preston, usually); sometimes not--at least to > me. This one has a sort of cousin-to-Stanley look about it. > > John Wadsworth, in Delhi, NY (where it's gonna snow again, darn it) > ---- Start of Message 130276 (thread 50449) ---- From: Mark Marsay Date: 2004-03-07 23:36:37 Subject: Re: Unknown Router Looks very much like a Marples router I saw at the antiques fair I hit to stock up stock in last week. Unfortunately I didn't pick that up as it was the end of the day and I had, as usual, grossly overspent the budget. As far as the cutter goes, I know I have a box of odd 71 cutters somewhere, as my 71 box only has space for 6, so I'll check when I hit the workshop in the morning (don't think the missus will be entirely pleased at me shifting boxes over her head at half eleven!) If I have one, I'll ask her to post it to you from Dallas Tuesday or Wednesday, but I'll let you know off list tomorrow. Regards, Mark Marsay, Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. > >Subject: Re: [oldtools] Unknown Router From: "Frank" >Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 17:31:49 -0600 To: "oldtools" > >John, > >You may be correct. The cutter and thumb screw are definitely >homemade. Someone took a 1/4 inch round head machine screw and filed >the head flat on two sides, down to about the thickness of the screw >body. Then they brazed/soldered on a flat piece of metal to make it >into a thumb screw. > >If the router is craftsman-made, they did a very professional job on >everything except the screw and cutter - one or both of which could >have been replaced later by someone else. > >Enjoy your snow. It is 70F here right now and nothing but sunshine. > >Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) > > >----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 4:41 PM Subject: Re: >[oldtools] Unknown Router > > >> Frank Sronce said: >> >> << I acquired a router recently, that I can't identify. >> >> >> Looks like a home-cast job to me, even without the twisty cutter. I >have a >> few craftsman-made routers--some are quite well done. Sometimes it's >obvious >> what the model was (Stanley or Preston, usually); sometimes not--at >least to >> me. This one has a sort of cousin-to-Stanley look about it. >> >> John Wadsworth, in Delhi, NY (where it's gonna snow again, darn it) >> > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ++++ End of thread 50449 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50450 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130274 (thread 50450) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-07 22:41:29 Subject: Re: Re:What is it about this obsession? Delivering Milk, huh, Bob. Sorta puts an age on you. LOL Jerry ++++ End of thread 50450 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50451 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130278 (thread 50451) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-07 17:07:11 Subject: Bessemer process ( was new forests) On Sunday, March 7, 2004, at 01:12 PM, Paul Honore wrote: > > The Bessemer process finally won out in the early 20th century and > most of > the > old furnaces just tumbled away, although the one on the grounds of the > Sloane-Stanley > Museum in Kent CT has been nicely restored. > > The Bessemer process did not replace blast furnaces, it replaced open hearth furnaces by greatly reducing the amount of time necessary to convert iron to steel. It was still necessary to have blast furnaces to produce the iron to feed into the Bessemer process. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130281 (thread 50451) ---- From: Paul Honore Date: 2004-03-07 23:32:14 Subject: Re: Bessemer process ( was new forests) At 05:07 PM 3/7/2004 -0800, Jim writes: > >The Bessemer process did not replace blast furnaces, it replaced open >hearth furnaces by greatly reducing the amount of time necessary to >convert iron to steel. It was still necessary to have blast furnaces to >produce the iron to feed into the Bessemer process. > >Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA > Jim is quite correct. What I should have said was the use of coke in blast furnaces instead of charcoal and the availability of cheap coal sources in Pennsylvania and Alabama made those areas the kings of pig iron and caused the demise of the charcoal method. Probably just as well for the Connecticut countryside. Paul Honore ++++ End of thread 50451 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50452 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130279 (thread 50452) ---- From: "CheekyGeek" Date: 2004-03-07 18:25:41 Subject: T. Tillotson chisel, questions & a whatsit... Greetings Porchlings, I bought a grouping of tools off of that big auction site we all know and love. I was mainly interested in the German "Perfection" style screwdriver, which turned out to be the 5" size. I also got a couple of bevel gauges, including one that is rosewood & brass and 10-1/2 inches long (closed). It has a circular Patent Date stamp in the rosewood, but no other markings. From the date (Sept. 4. 1877) I was able to use DATAMP to determine that it was a Traut Patent Stanley. Not sure how long they might have stamped the wood in this fashion and yet had no other Stanley markings. Certainly not rare, but it looks pretty old to my eyes. Does anyone have any idea how long Stanley used real rosewood on their bevel gauges? Also in the group was a tang chisel exactly 1 cm wide which (if I am reading it correctly) is a (Some initial) TILLOTSON chisel. It is ground slighly skew (a bit too much to appear merely sloppy). It is also stamped "CRYSTALLIZED CAST STEEL". Does anyone have any information on Tillotson (approximate age, etc.) and what in the world is "Crystallized" cast steel? Finally, I got an odd item that is a "whatsit" to me. It looks like a 9" long letter opener except the blade is too fat to be useful for that (If you cut it, the cross-section would be American Football shaped. It has a wooden handle about 4-1/2" long and the metal part is stuck into it like a tanged chisel. It comes to a rounded point that does not appear to ever have been sharpened for any reason. My guess is that it is a scraper burnisher, but I'm not sure why the football cross-section. Has anyone ever seen anything fitting this description? I'll try to get a picture up in the mornng. Thanks in advance for any wisdom (or guesses) you can shed. Darren Addy Kearney, Nebraska ---- Start of Message 130284 (thread 50452) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-08 09:50:13 Subject: Re: T. Tillotson chisel, questions & a whatsit... Hi Darren & All, The DAT has T. Tillotson listed as a maker of bits, chisels, and plane irons, but has no data on when or where he worked. I'm pretty sure the football cross section thing is a burnisher. Your doubts about that sort of surprised me; I've always pictured that as the standard form for burnishers. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130292 (thread 50452) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 2004-03-08 11:54:12 Subject: Re: T. Tillotson chisel, questions & a whatsit... Darren Addy asked: >Also in the group was a tang chisel exactly 1 cm wide which (if I am >reading it correctly) is a (Some initial) TILLOTSON chisel. It is ground >slighly skew (a bit too much to appear merely sloppy). It is also stamped >"CRYSTALLIZED CAST STEEL". Does anyone have any information on Tillotson >(approximate age, etc.) and what in the world is "Crystallized" cast >steel? In a caption of a photo of a Sheffield plated brace marked "T. TILLOTSON", Ken Roberts indicated that Thomas Tillotson was a Sheffield Merchant & Dealer from 1837 to 1856. While this is, likely, substantially correct, I've uncovered the following directory listings which indicate the reality is slightly more complex: 1822 John Tillotson, Factor and Table Knife Mfr., Coalpit Lane, Sheffield 1828/9 John Tillotson & Son, Edge Tool Maker, Coalpit Lane, Sheffield 1839 T. Tillotson & Sons, Merchant & Manufacturerer of Table Cutlery &c., 56 Coal-Pit Lane, Sheffield 1841 Thomas and John Tillotson, Table Knife Manufacturers, 56 Coalpit Lane, Sheffield 1847 Thomas Tillotson, Merchant, Factor & Manufacturer, 56 Coalpit Lane, Sheffield 1852 Thomas Tillotson & Co., Merchant, Columbia Place, 49 Suffolk Road, Sheffield The likelihood is that your chisel was made for Thomas Tillotson by another company, and the "Crystallized Cast Steel" mark *may* provide a clue regarding its origin. For example, a couple of years ago, Trevor Robinson had a chisel for sale which was marked "Crystallized Cast Steel" as well as with John Cutler's maker's mark. John Cutler's working dates were in the same time-frame as those given for Thomas Tillotson: -1841- on Stanley Street and -1845-1854- on Charlotte Street, Sheffield. So, it is possible your chisel was made by John Cutler, though, obviously, that isn't proven. I think I've seen some additional information about the "Crystallized Cast Steel" mark, but can't seem to find it at the moment. Hope this helps. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ++++ End of thread 50452 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50453 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130280 (thread 50453) ---- From: "CheekyGeek" Date: 2004-03-07 18:50:52 Subject: WTB: Round-sided 608 frog (and lever cap?) Porchlings, Anybody with a parts arsenal have a frog for a Type 3 or 4 Bedrock 608 that they would be willing to part with? The original has the "B" casting. Apparently this same plane was made for Keen Kutter and Winchester, so I'm hopeful that someone salvaged a frog from a broken bed. Mine had the top (with adjuster) broken off apparently a long time ago. Doesn't look like that really slowed the user down however, since there is only about 1/2" left on the "T" trademark blade. I'd be in the market for a correct lever cap also. Ping me with anything you might be willing to part with. TIA Darren Addy Kearney, Nebraska ++++ End of thread 50453 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50454 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130282 (thread 50454) ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-03-08 04:42:55 Subject: Narex followup For those who might be interested, I received this email from Narex in response to my enquirery about distributors in the US. The first two are well-known, anyone ever heard of the last one? I ordered a few of the chisels from Highland Hardware and they just arrived late last week. I haven't tried to hone one up yet so I can't comment on the steel yet. The handles were a bit over-finished with a shiney, probably polyurethane (sp?) finish. They seem like a solid set of medium-weight general purpose chisels. And for the price, hard to beat. Once I hone a few and try them out, I'll report back. AAAndrew Having a lot of scraper fun yesterday and glued up one end of the base of my table in Durham, North Carolina. --- Ctirad Coufal wrote: > From: "Ctirad Coufal" > To: > Subject: FX 04197 MIDKIFF > Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:25:21 +0100 > > Dear Mr.Midkiff, > We are very pleased with your interest about our > products. > We have 3 selling partners in USA and their > addresses are as follows: > > 1) GARRETT WADE COMPANY > 161 AVE OF AMERICAS > NEW YORK, NY 10013 > Fax: 212-255-8552 > > 2) HIGHLAND HARDWARE > 1045 N.HIGHLAND AVE > ATLANTA, GEORGIA 30306 > Fax: 4048761941 > > 3) ALDA ENTERPRISE > 1745 RODEO RD. > ARCADIA, CA 91006 > Tel.: 626-355-8560 > > Looking forward to hearing from you soon. > Best regards > Petr Staněk > NAREX Bystrice > > --- > Odchozí zpráva neobsahuje viry. > Zkontrolováno antivirovým systémem AVG > (http://www.grisoft.cz). > Verze: 6.0.592 / Virová báze: 375 - datum vydání: > 18.2.2004 > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130295 (thread 50454) ---- From: Kirk Eppler Date: 2004-03-08 09:41:15 Subject: Re: Narex followup That address is in a residential neighborhood. Google turns up nothing useful. I'll see if a friend who lives nearby can do a drive by. Andrew Midkiff wrote: > The first two are well-known, anyone ever heard of the last one? > > > 3) ALDA ENTERPRISE > > 1745 RODEO RD. > > ARCADIA, CA 91006 > > Tel.: 626-355-8560 > -- Kirk Eppler Global Mfg Science and Technology Eppler.Kirk@g... ---- Start of Message 130325 (thread 50454) ---- From: "John Pesut" Date: 2004-03-08 19:20:32 Subject: Re: Narex followup Hey, when did Darren move? I never saw his change od address go by... > That address is in a residential neighborhood. Google turns up nothing > useful. I'll see if a friend who lives nearby can do a drive by. > > Andrew Midkiff wrote: > > > The first two are well-known, anyone ever heard of the last one? > > > > > 3) ALDA ENTERPRISE > > > 1745 RODEO RD. > > > ARCADIA, CA 91006 > > > Tel.: 626-355-8560 ---- Start of Message 130880 (thread 50454) ---- From: "John Meikrantz" Date: 2004-03-18 13:15:03 Subject: Re: Narex followup Andrew, Any update on the Narex chisels? I'm curious to see how they shape up. John -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin ---- Start of Message 130889 (thread 50454) ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-03-18 18:54:28 Subject: Re: Narex followup --- John Meikrantz wrote: > Andrew, > > Any update on the Narex chisels? I'm curious to see > how they shape up. > > John > Good timing. I had some time to sharpen them up this evening and try them out. http://www.umich.edu/~amidkiff/tools/narex/Narexset.jpg First, the feel in the hand. These are fairly lightweight chisels. But, that's not to say cheap or flimsy. They seem decently solid and able to take some whacking, but they seem better suited for paring and regular bench work. The handles are a bit over-finished and shiney, but the shaping with semi-flat areas felt nice in my hands, and when I was doing some basic shaping of the wood they were easy to keep a hold of and control. What about the steel? I honed them, which was pretty easy and tried them out on nasty old dry pine end grain. I've been told that one test of how sharp you can get a chisel is to cut end grain of a soft wood. http://www.umich.edu/~amidkiff/tools/narex/Narexendgrain.jpg They did pretty well. I could get a nice sharp edge. They compared well to some of my older chisels in ease of honing. I have no idea of how well they'll hold their edge but you can at least get them sharp fairly quickly. The case is pretty good but I'm not sure about the foam padding. It seems to me that the foam might be prone to holding moisture against the metal. I don't think I'll be keeping them in the case for long. Any thoughts on the foam? Overall, a nice set of light-weight, general-use chisels for an amazing price. I'll probably try to take some of the finish off of the handles and use these chisels often. I'd still like a set of heavier chisels, like some Two Cherries or even heavier, but these will a be good every-day set I won't worry too much about. Everyone should have a set of chisels they can abuse a bit more. These would be good ones to take on-site of for work around the house. Hope this was informative. AAAndrew Doing some tool tune-up in Durham, North Carolina. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130891 (thread 50454) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-18 22:17:02 Subject: Re: Narex followup > chisels for an amazing price. I'll probably try to > take some of the finish off of the handles and use > these chisels often. I'd still like a set of heavier If/when you do, could you let us know how easy/hard it is to remove the finish...purty please? > Hope this was informative. Very much. Thanks for the report. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130906 (thread 50454) ---- From: Scott Stager Date: 2004-03-19 08:19:05 Subject: Re: Narex followup I also ordered a set when they were first discussed. They were back ordered for about a week or so. Andrews pictures show the details. I'll add that they are slightly hollow ground. The edges "feel" sharp, but appear to have very tiny nicks in them - actually just a strange reflection of light. Also they appear to have a tiny secondary bevel already honed on the hollow ground. I'm pretty sure that the nicks are because of the backs not being polished. The final grind on the backs was coarse enough to show parallel grooves obvious to the unaided eye. But, not that bad really for a chisel that you would expect to have to hone. I haven't had the opportunity to work on them, but suspect that a little finishing of the back and honing on the bevel should produce a clean. No idea on durability. I agree on the coarse finish on the handles. Will definitely have to be smoothed out somehow. --Scott At 08:54 PM 3/18/2004, Andrew Midkiff wrote: >--- John Meikrantz wrote: > > Andrew, > > > > Any update on the Narex chisels? I'm curious to see > > how they shape up. > > > > John > > > >Good timing. I had some time to sharpen them up this >evening and try them out. >http://www.umich.edu/~amidkiff/tools/narex/Narexset.jpg > >First, the feel in the hand. These are fairly >lightweight chisels. But, that's not to say cheap or >flimsy. They seem decently solid and able to take some >whacking, but they seem better suited for paring and >regular bench work. The handles are a bit >over-finished and shiney, but the shaping with >semi-flat areas felt nice in my hands, and when I was >doing some basic shaping of the wood they were easy to >keep a hold of and control. What about the steel? > >I honed them, which was pretty easy and tried them out >on nasty old dry pine end grain. I've been told that >one test of how sharp you can get a chisel is to cut >end grain of a soft wood. >http://www.umich.edu/~amidkiff/tools/narex/Narexendgrain.jpg > +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ Scott Stager - Blacksmith/woodworker wannabe (University of Missouri) StagerS@m... Work Phone: (573)-882-9289 Home Phone: (573)-474-5955 ++++ End of thread 50454 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50455 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130289 (thread 50455) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-08 11:40:20 Subject: domestic dilema Last July, being in the nesting mode, swmbo decided to re-organize the basement storage closet (big room...lot's of bins and boxes stacked floor to ceiling). After removing all contents and spreading them out all over the finished side of the basement she ran out of inspiration and everything has been untouched since. I cleared a path to the T.V. and never let on about the mess and that it bothered me, knowing what the response would be. my little area http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=236 This week swmbo offered the visiting pastor a place to stay for a couple of days and re-inspired, decided it was time to deal with the mess. She described a built in bookcase for under the basement stair and asked me to go to work on it. After completing the basic carcase, I set it in place and called her down to give it the OK. She wasn't shy about telling me that it was not what she had invisioned. Not a problem, I'll use it in the shop. She came up with a new idea for a stepped bookcase on one wall under the stair, so I built that. I called her down for the inspection, "It's too deep for vidio's".... "Vidio's...heh????" So swmbo has ideas for more built-ins in the basement. Should I contract out or suck it up? regards jonathan ---- Start of Message 130290 (thread 50455) ---- From: "Pete Bergstrom" Date: 2004-03-08 10:48:35 Subject: Re: domestic dilema "Jonathan Peck" wrote: > So swmbo has ideas for more built-ins in the basement. Should I > contract out or suck it up? Been there, done that too. I've found that a detailed drawing with measurements does wonders; don't forget the signoff line. If I were in your shoes, I'd splurge on some large newsprint sheets and draw it out life-size. Good luck, Pete ---- Start of Message 130291 (thread 50455) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-08 08:52:37 Subject: Re: domestic dilema Sounds like you better call up Frank Lloyd Wright's more expensive cousin, still in business. Either that or hand the girl a saw. Only talk is cheap yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130296 (thread 50455) ---- From: Mark Marsay Date: 2004-03-08 17:54:24 Subject: Re: domestic dilema This makes me wonder if all women learn how to handle their men in the same class! (If you wonder about the "their" bit, think a minute about who is REALLY in charge at home). I'd say something along the lines of "you draw it and I'll build it ...... but I'll need more tools to do it" :-) Regards, Mark Marsay, Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. > >Subject: [oldtools] domestic dilema From: Jonathan Peck >Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:40:20 -0500 To: "oldtools" > >Last July, being in the nesting mode, swmbo decided to re-organize the >basement storage closet (big room...lot's of bins and boxes stacked >floor to ceiling). After removing all contents and spreading them out >all over the finished side of the basement she ran out of inspiration >and everything has been untouched since. I cleared a path to the T.V. >and never let on about the mess and that it bothered me, knowing what >the response would be. > >my little area >http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=236 > >This week swmbo offered the visiting pastor a place to stay for a >couple of days and re-inspired, decided it was time to deal with the >mess. She described a built in bookcase for under the basement stair >and asked me to go to work on it. After completing the basic carcase, I >set it in place and called her down to give it the OK. She wasn't shy >about telling me that it was not what she had invisioned. Not a >problem, I'll use it in the shop. She came up with a new idea for a >stepped bookcase on one wall under the stair, so I built that. I called >her down for the inspection, "It's too deep for vidio's".... >"Vidio's...heh????" > >So swmbo has ideas for more built-ins in the basement. Should I >contract out or suck it up? > >regards jonathan > > > > > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130298 (thread 50455) ---- From: "Mike Duchaj" Date: 2004-03-08 13:38:40 Subject: Re: domestic dilema Hello cabinetmakers! At our house we are building a large wall unit. It is in the 2nd phase. Things are going well thanks to the ground rules: I provide rough sketches and measured drawings for approval, then retain some artistic control in the shop. She makes noises of approval when I finsh pieces. Start with a "needs assessment" Mike Duchaj Elgin, IL ---- Start of Message 130299 (thread 50455) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-08 18:43:13 Subject: re: domestic dilema Sound to me like you move way to fast in the completion of these projects. Gotta slow way down so's she can see things as they progress, then every time she changes her mind about what she wanted (of course she will not admit to changeing her mind, just make it seem as though you weren't listening, misunderstood, or are just plain stupid) take more time to get the changes made, and getting back to where you would have been without the change order. Then make her come and look at the thing often in various stages so that she believes that it is about 10 times more difficult to do than it really is. She will then think twice or thrice about complaining that it wasn't what she wanted. ---- Start of Message 130301 (thread 50455) ---- From: "Bill Ghio" Date: 2004-03-08 14:09:56 Subject: RE: domestic dilema -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Peck She described a built in bookcase for under the basement stair and asked me to go to work on it. After completing the basic carcase, I set it in place and called her down to give it the OK. She wasn't shy about telling me that it was not what she had invisioned. Not a problem, I'll use it in the shop. She came up with a new idea for a stepped bookcase on one wall under the stair, so I built that. I called her down for the inspection, "It's too deep for vidio's".... "Vidio's...heh????" So swmbo has ideas for more built-ins in the basement. Should I contract out or suck it up? _________________________ I do two things, because this is a chronic problem in my household. First I do a detail drawing or a mock up (current project was mantle and surround done in a full size mock-up in ply and cardboard). Once I have approval on the basic design and start the project, I call her to inspect frequently. I try to time inspections around commitment points ("This is the last chance to adjust whatever, once the glue dries its final.) Sometimes I can get away w/ "It's too late for that." Other times I solve the problem by telling her "Not a problem, I'll just rip it out and start over." And sometimes she accepts that option. Good luck, Bill ---- Start of Message 130302 (thread 50455) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-08 13:41:27 Subject: RE: domestic dilema I can't agree enough with the others who mentioned a full sized mockup. Get down detail, detail, detail. Get style ideas, too. As far as the depth for the videos that can be remedied by adding a drawer for the videos to lay in, titles up. I found a dresser drawer that works great for this. Three rows with the titles facing up at me, three rows where the tapes are end to end. Plus it reduces the dusting of an open bookcase. I wish you lots and lots of luck as I know the frustrations of this and I do a lot of what Bill mentioned about saying this will be permanent after the glue dries and so forth. Kind of get feedback step by step while still sticking with the overall design. It's tricky. Chances are she won't be able to describe what she is thinking to someone else even if you do contract it out. The other really handy thing here can be to use available magazine pictures or actual in store designs. Once she picks it, stick to it. Either that or tell her to pick up the mess she left laying around all over and get out of the house before the blast wave hits. Also hope the EM Pulse doesn't render your car useless because you might need to use the kid's bike or skateboard to make a quick get a way! > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Peck > > She described a built in bookcase for under the basement stair > and asked me to go to work on it. After completing the basic > carcase, I set it in place and called her down to give it the OK. > She wasn't shy about telling me that it was not what she had > invisioned. Not a problem, I'll use it in the shop. She came up with > a new idea for a stepped bookcase on one wall under the stair, so I > built that. I called her down for the inspection, "It's too deep for > vidio's".... "Vidio's...heh????" > ---- Start of Message 130310 (thread 50455) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-08 15:17:19 Subject: Re: domestic dilema Hello all, Paul Bergstrom said: >I've found that a detailed drawing with measurements does wonders; >don't forget the signoff line. I think it went something like this "can you build this now, I'd like to get this place organized" Captain - "I need warp speed" Scotty - "I'm givin' it all she's got sir, she's breaking up!" Captain - "eject the warp core" Of course the captain always gets to shuttle off to some exotic place, kick some alien butt, and get the girl. All I got was an invitation to help clean up. Scott Grandstaff added: >Sounds like you better call up Frank Lloyd Wright's more expensive >cousin, still in business. This would surely help in the custom, gizmosity, feasability, constructability phase. Amazingly dead on target. Paul Morin added: >It's like any other job I've worked at, most of the job is >explaining to the client what they need, and why what they think >they want isn't going to work. When we moved into our apartment in March of 03, I drew plans for custom closet interiors (plan view, elevation and section). One year later my closet is the only one that's built. see: custom, gizmosity, feasability, constructability phase above. Esther Heller added a different view: >For your wife, some comments along the line of "I want to be >certain to make exactly what you have in mind darling..." would >probably grease the system a bit. You mean AARRRRGGGGH!!!! isn't an effective negotiating tactic? Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 130316 (thread 50455) ---- From: "Gary Katsanis" Date: 2004-03-08 16:17:37 Subject: Re: domestic dilema Free advice is sometimes worth what you pay for it, but I would 'suck it up' and do my best to give her what she wants (or can live with) when she wants it. First of all, I would get SWMBO's blessing for shop time. Second, it sounds like she wants to keep a commitment to the visiting pastor, on a fairly urgent basis. If I come through with support for her commitment, my wife usually remembers it for a long time. While it might be personally satisfying to get her to admit that she left the basement a mess for a year, and it might be more efficient with your time to insist on final commitment to a specific design before you start, it sounds like this is not the best time. A lot depends on her personality too. Is this the first time she has done this to you, or is it the way she always is? Gary K Close to Buffalo NY PS - a good relationship with SWMBO is based on adapting to her personality and character - my wife and I have been married for 17 years now, and . . . well, I guess eventually I'll adapt . . . PPS - nice job on the entertainment center in the picture! If you have trouble with space and have to get rid of the contents, please pack everything carefully and send it to me; I'll see that it gets a good home. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Peck" To: "oldtools" Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 11:40 AM Subject: [oldtools] domestic dilema > Last July, being in the nesting mode, swmbo decided to re-organize > the basement storage closet (big room...lot's of bins and boxes > stacked floor to ceiling). After removing all contents and spreading > them out all over the finished side of the basement she ran out of > inspiration and everything has been untouched since. I cleared a > path to the T.V. and never let on about the mess and that it > bothered me, knowing what the response would be. > > my little area > http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=236 > > This week swmbo offered the visiting pastor a place to stay for a > couple of days and re-inspired, decided it was time to deal with the > mess. She described a built in bookcase for under the basement stair > and asked me to go to work on it. After completing the basic > carcase, I set it in place and called her down to give it the OK. > She wasn't shy about telling me that it was not what she had > invisioned. Not a problem, I'll use it in the shop. She came up with > a new idea for a stepped bookcase on one wall under the stair, so I > built that. I called her down for the inspection, "It's too deep for > vidio's".... "Vidio's...heh????" > > So swmbo has ideas for more built-ins in the basement. Should I > contract out or suck it up? > > regards > jonathan > > > > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130317 (thread 50455) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-08 16:27:06 Subject: re: domestic dilema Jerry wrote and I snipped: >just make it seem as though you weren't listening, misunderstood, >or are just plain stupid) She's already certain of all three and BTW, so is SWMBOette who at six has already learned "the look" Swmbo's dad, having four daughters, and even the dog being a girl was known to drive 600 miles to save the shipping cost for a replacement motor on a 30 year old washing machine (true story). Me, I finally got my boy -:) http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=241 jonathan - who is still wondering how a smooth talking southern minister not only talked his way into our house, but would be more comfortable in our bed. ---- Start of Message 130353 (thread 50455) ---- From: "Kaye, Danny" Date: 2004-03-09 11:30:57 Subject: RE: domestic dilema SSB3YXMgZmVlbGluZyBicmF2ZSwgaXQgd2VudA0KIA0Kc2hlOiBJIGhhdGUgYnVpbHQgaW4gd2Fy ZHJvYmVzLCB3ZSBuZWVkIGEgbG90IG9mIHN0b3JhZ2UgKHN1YnRleHQgeW91IGhhdmUgdG9vIG1h bnkgY2xvdGhlcykNCm1lOiBpdCB3aWxsIGJlIGZpbmUsIEknbGwgcHV0IHR3byByYWlscyBhbmQg Y3VwYm9hcmRzIGhlcmUsIGhlcmUgYW5kIGhlcmUNCnNoZTogaXQgd29uJ3QgYmUgZW5vdWdoDQpt ZTogSSdsbCBidWlsZCBpdCwgSSBjYW4gYWx3YXlzIGNoYW5nZSBpdCBsYXRlciAod2hlbiBJIGdl dCByb3VuZCB0byBpdCkNCiANCmxhdGVyDQogDQpzaGU6IHRoZXJlcyBhIGxvdCAgb2YgZW1wdHkg c3RvcmFnZSBoZXJlLCBJIGxpa2UgdGhlIGRvb3JzLCBpdCBkb2Vzbid0IGxvb2sgbGlrZSBidWls dCBpbiwgSSBsaWtlIGl0DQogDQpjbGluY2hlZCBieQ0KIA0KIzIgZGF1Z2h0ZXI6IGNhbiBJIGhh dmUgc29tZSBsaWtlIHRoYXQNCiANCnBoZXcgLSBnb3QgYXdheSB3aXRoIGl0LiBNb3ZpbmcgaW50 byBhIGJyYW5kIG5ldyBob3VzZSB3aXRoIG5vIGZpdHRpbmdzIGlzIGZ1biwgMTEgbGlnaHQgZml0 dGluZ3MsIGJ1aWx0IGluIHdhcmRyb2JlcyogYW5kIHVtcHRlZW4gc2hlbHZlcyBldGMgaW4gMiB3 ZWVrcywgYWxsIEkgaGF2ZSB0byBkbyBub3cgaXMgYnVpbGQgYSB3b3Jrc2hvcCBhbmQgZ2V0IHJv dW5kIHRvIHRoZSBkZXNrIGZvciAjMSBkYXVnaHRlciBldGMgZXRjDQogDQpkYW5ueQ0KIA0KKndl bGwgZXhjZXB0IHR3byBkb29ycyB0aGF0IEkgaGF2ZSBub3QgZmluaXNoZWQgeWV0IGFuZCBwYWlu dC9zdGFpbiBvciBzb21ldGhpbmcgdGhlIHdob2xlIHRoaW5nDQoNCgktLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1l c3NhZ2UtLS0tLSANCglGcm9tOiBKb25hdGhhbiBQZWNrIFttYWlsdG86anBlY2tAbWNnb2NvLmNv bV0gDQoJU2VudDogTW9uIDA4LzAzLzIwMDQgMjA6MTcgDQoJVG86IG9sZHRvb2xzIA0KCUNjOiAN CglTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW29sZHRvb2xzXSBkb21lc3RpYyBkaWxlbWENCgkNCgkNCg0KCUhlbGxv IGFsbCwNCgkNCglQYXVsIEJlcmdzdHJvbSBzYWlkOg0KCT5JJ3ZlIGZvdW5kIHRoYXQgYSBkZXRh aWxlZCBkcmF3aW5nIHdpdGggbWVhc3VyZW1lbnRzIGRvZXMgd29uZGVyczsNCgk+ZG9uJ3QgZm9y Z2V0IHRoZSBzaWdub2ZmIGxpbmUuDQoJDQoJSSB0aGluayBpdCB3ZW50IHNvbWV0aGluZyBsaWtl IHRoaXMgImNhbiB5b3UgYnVpbGQgdGhpcyBub3csIEknZA0KCWxpa2UgdG8gZ2V0IHRoaXMgcGxh Y2Ugb3JnYW5pemVkIg0KCUNhcHRhaW4gLSAiSSBuZWVkIHdhcnAgc3BlZWQiDQoJU2NvdHR5IC0g IkknbSBnaXZpbicgaXQgYWxsIHNoZSdzIGdvdCBzaXIsIHNoZSdzIGJyZWFraW5nIHVwISINCglD YXB0YWluIC0gImVqZWN0IHRoZSB3YXJwIGNvcmUiDQoJDQoJPHNuaXA+DQoNCg== ---- Start of Message 130363 (thread 50455) ---- From: "Rodgers Charles" Date: 2004-03-09 09:02:21 Subject: re: domestic dilema Jerry offered Jonathon some advice: > Sound to me like you move way to fast... snipped > Then make her come and look...so she believes that it is > about 10 times more difficult to do than it really is. Yeah, and take your time. SWMBO asked me to convert a small (10' X 10') spare bedroom into a walk-in closet. No problem, says I. I had the wall brackets, hangar rods, and shelves up in a month or so. At that point, she said "there's no hurry on the rest of it" so I've been workng on the partitions and the doors for the last 15 months. My (unspoken) rule is to never finish anything she asks for before she nags me about it-at least three or four times. Cuts down on the number of things she asks me to do. Otherwise, I never get any time for my projects. I've never refused to make anything for her, and if it really is urgent, everything else gets set aside. > She will then think twice or thrice about > complaining that it wasn't what she wanted. I'm less sure about this...IME that's never deterred her. Oldtool content: Just last night I was trimming one of the partitions with my gunter-shave, 60-1/2, and 3/8" Diefenbach chisel. They work quite well on sheet goods.. Charlie Rodgers Clinton, Maryland ++++ End of thread 50455 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50456 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130294 (thread 50456) ---- From: "A Frampton" Date: 2004-03-08 17:05:24 Subject: Plane ID - German? GGs, A moderately successful spot of rust hunting over the weekend resulted in me re-homing a wooden jointer plane, amongst other things. Identification eludes me, but I have hopes the list will come through. The stats: 24" long, 3" wide, wood unknown but not beech. Stamped on the heel "57m/m" and two marks. One is a triangle pointing down inside which there is stamped "S.W." at the top and a "B" underneath. The other looks for all the world like a cherub beating a diplodocus to death. Honest! Diplodocus lying down, head arched up and backwards, under-dressed fellow with wings and a stratigically placed whisp of cloth standing on its back waving a stick or something in his arm. Either side of this charming scene of animal cruelty are an "O" and a "K". Well you may think it's OK, but really... The iron meanwhile is a tapered affair, 56mm wide. Stamped across the top is what appears to be "RADIUM" although the last letter is a little unclear. Have I got a radioactive plane iron...? Also a much deeper stamp in the familiar arch shape with "KASTANIENBLATT" over the arch and "GUSS STAHL GARANTIE" underneath. Inside the arch is -what I now guess to be- a chestnut leaf. No prizes for pointing out that all that's German for "Chestnut Leaf" and "Guaranteed cast steel" btw. Unless the online German-English dictionary has lead me astray... So which maker, presumably German, used chestnut leaves as a trademark, in the same way Bill Marples and his boys used a shamrock? And who favoured that charming scene of carnage as their means of identification? If anyone can shed some light I'd be obliged, as I know zilch about continental makers so it's about time I learnt. Cheers, Alf Taking the long way round to say "Got a plane; who made it?" in Cornwall UK _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger ---- Start of Message 130351 (thread 50456) ---- From: "Jordan, Wolfgang" Date: 2004-03-09 10:25:19 Subject: RE: Plane ID - German? Alf, the maker of your plane was Otto Kneisel (OK) in Zeitz, Germany. I have = some info on my site about Kneisel: http://www.holzwerken.de/museum/hersteller/kneisel.phtml (in German) The Kneisel factory was running from 1872 until 1934. Their trademark = was taken from the city arms of Zeitz, the archangel Michael fighting = the dragon. The wood of this jointer is probably hornbeam (Carpinus betulus), = because this was the primary wood used for German planes back then. I have no idea about the other stamps on plane body and iron. The = chestnut leaf is new to me, but it reminds me of the chestnut tree used = by Heinrich B=F6ker in Solingen. They may have used the leaf at some = time in their history: http://www.boker.de/ I've seen the 'SWB' in a triangle and 'RADIUM' occasionally, but cannot = connect it to a company: http://www.holzwerken.de/pics/radium_swb.jpg They seem to appear always together. Something tells me they might be = stamps applied by a French trader, maybe because I have a presumably = French toothing plane with these marks: http://www.holzwerken.de/museum/special/zahn1.phtml HTH, Wolfgang ---- Start of Message 130352 (thread 50456) ---- From: "A Frampton" Date: 2004-03-09 09:43:23 Subject: RE: Plane ID - German? Wolfgang wrote (well lots, and answered practically everything!) but amongst other things: >the maker of your plane was Otto Kneisel (OK) in Zeitz, Germany. I have >some info on my site about Kneisel: >http://www.holzwerken.de/museum/hersteller/kneisel.phtml (in German) >The Kneisel factory was running from 1872 until 1934. Their trademark was >taken from the city arms of Zeitz, the archangel Michael fighting the >dragon. Yep, that's the fellow. I did think it was probably a dragon, but that always means "St George" to the English, and he was definitely wing-less. Makes the plane at least 20 years older than I guessed. Thank you very much indeed, Wolfgang. Brilliant stuff. And as others have said before me, "Ain't the list great"? :~) Cheers, Alf In Cornwall, GB wishing she'd taken German lessons :~( _________________________________________________________________ Sign-up for a FREE BT Broadband connection today! http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband ---- Start of Message 130376 (thread 50456) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-09 07:18:05 Subject: RE: Plane ID - German? --- "Jordan, Wolfgang" wrote: The wood of this jointer is probably hornbeam (Carpinus betulus), > because this was the primary wood used for German planes back then. Hi guys--- I'm reminded of a question I've wanted to put to the porch for some time---Who's heard of "Plane trees", which are apparently a kind of sycamore, being used to make planes? I've read about this in two separate and "creditable" sources---if you should take the tree tour of the UofW, and you should, you'd see a row of these trees about a half a mile long and at least sixty feet high. The tour map text tells the story of the plane tree. btw, this tour is well worth taking in the winter as well as the summer---lots of evergreens; buy the map at the bookstore and wear comfortable shoes. Recently, I read that the trees that line so many of the country roads in France (many of which are lately being cut to widen these roads) are plane trees, again with the story. Credence? please advise; GAM in Seattle __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130387 (thread 50456) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-09 13:45:19 Subject: Re: Plane ID - German? Hi Gary & All, I've known about "plane trees" since I was a toddler, but I've never heard of their having anything to do with making planes and I seriously doubt that. I did a bit of Google checking and found nothing there about that usage of them. One site had a thing about the name being derived from the Greek - but nothing re what Greek words or such was involved. The botanical name is something like platanus which could maybe be twisted into plane. There seem to be mixed opinions re whether the American sycamore is a type of plane tree or not; some Google sites say it is, but others say NO-NO - they just have a resemblance to one another. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130403 (thread 50456) ---- From: "David Clapp" Date: 2004-03-09 15:29:34 Subject: RE: Plane ID - German? Alf's description of a plane included: "Also a much deeper stamp in the familiar arch shape with "KASTANIENBLATT" over the arch and "GUSS STAHL GARANTIE" underneath. Inside the arch is -what I now guess to be- a chestnut leaf. No prizes for pointing out that all that's German for "Chestnut Leaf" and "Guaranteed cast steel" btw." She later signed off by writing: ">In Cornwall, GB wishing she'd taken German lessons :~(" Well, I recently picked up a saw with GUSSTAHL stamped on the blade and spent more than a few minutes poring over an atlas to figure out just where in Germany it was located. David Clapp In Illinois, USA wishing he'd taken German language AND geography lessons :~( _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ---- Start of Message 130407 (thread 50456) ---- From: Jerry Davis Date: 2004-03-09 17:13:58 Subject: Re: Plane ID - German? reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) wrote: > twisted into plane. There seem to be mixed opinions re whether the > American sycamore is a type of plane tree or not; some Google sites say > it is, but others say NO-NO - they just have a resemblance to one > another. They are all in the family Platanaceae. Which in laymans terms is the Sycamore or Planetree family. There are 7-8 species worldwide, three of them are native to the US. Platanus occidentalis in the east and P. wrightii and P. racemosa in the west. London planetree is thought to be a hybrid between P. occidentalis and P. orientalis (Oriental plane) and has been planted in the US as a street tree.* Plane seems to be a Middle English/Old French derivation from the Latin platanus which is from the Greek platanos meaning broad. I guess it sounded good to Linneas so that's what he wrote down. *Harlow, Harrar and White, Textbook of Dendrology. Jerry Griffin, GA ++++ End of thread 50456 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50457 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130303 (thread 50457) ---- From: "Roger Nixon" Date: 2004-03-08 19:50:17 Subject: Vulcan Dynamic claw hammer? I bought a box of stuff at an auction last Saturday. One of the items was a claw hammer with "Vulcan Dynamic" stamped on the side. Anyone know anything about this brand? I also got a hewing hatchet marked "Stowe Supply". I found that Stowe Supply was operating in Kansas City, MO in 1927. Does anyone have any other information? Thanks, Roger Nixon ++++ End of thread 50457 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50458 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130304 (thread 50458) ---- From: Joshua Clark Date: 2004-03-08 15:04:18 Subject: A Couple of Oddities Well, spring is just around the corner here in the Northeast, even though it's spitting snow as I write this. Most of the ice that has covered the driveway for the past three months has melted.. I just saw my first bluebird of the year in the juniper tree outside the window.. And last friday I went to my first estate sale of the year hoping to find some tools.. I got there at noon so there wasn't much left along the lines of tools, but I surprised to find a few nice things including two interesting tools: First, I pulled an old Disston out of what was once a nice tool chest. Straight back, nib, fancy handle with split nuts and the extra "loop" towards the bottom, no wheat carving- I assumed it was a #9, but when I got it home and cleaned it up, the etch clearly says it's a cast steel #7. The other interesting item of note is that I'm almost 100% certain the handle is beech and not apple as the #9/#12 handles were. I can clearly see ray flecks in the handle and a much more open grain structure than the usual apple handles. I would suspect that it's a "franken-saw" if t weren't for the split nuts which look original and untampered with.. http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/tmp/odd1.JPG http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/tmp/odd2.JPG I also found an interesting framing square.. now I don't usually pick up framing squares unless they're unusual (take-down, or from an desirable maker) but I thought this one was unusual. It's a Stanley Handyman 500c copper-plated framing square. I always believed that the Handyman line of tools was a low-end line so I was surprised to see a copper plated square. According to my Stanley reprints, copped plating on a framing square always demanded a premium above that of the standard polished, blued, or nickel plated versions. If the handyman line was indeed a low-end line marketed toward homeowners, why the copper plating? http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/tmp/odd3.JPG As an aside, can someone tell me when the Handyman line of tools was introduced? Walter's Stanley guide doesn't mention the handyman line at all, and all of my catalog reprints predate Handyman. Happy Hunting! -Josh in CT- ++++ End of thread 50458 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50459 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130305 (thread 50459) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 2004-03-08 15:06:07 Subject: And What Size? Galoots, I hope one of you is not the buyer. What size is this and did it sell for about 4 times it's value? < http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3278314449&category=13874 > *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * *********************************************** ---- Start of Message 130311 (thread 50459) ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-03-08 14:20:37 Subject: Re: And What Size? Hi Karl, If it's a #2, it seems to have sold for about 1/4 the value (1/2???) It doesn't look like a #2 to me. The twisted lateral lever? the marking low on the lever cap? It looks like some fine print below the lever cap retaining bolt. It would be fun to have someone chip in who got it or knows what it really is. Tom On Mar 8, 2004, at 2:06 PM, Karl W. Sanger wrote: > Galoots, > I hope one of you is not the buyer. What size is this and did it > sell for about 4 times it's value? > < > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? > ViewItem&item=3278314449&category=13874 > > > > *********************************************** > * Karl W. Sanger * > * Desperately seeking antique * > * Machinist Tools!!! * > * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * > * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * > *********************************************** > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 130315 (thread 50459) ---- From: "Foster, Jim" Date: 2004-03-08 14:49:42 Subject: RE: And What Size? Well, at 9 1/2" it's either a 4 or 4 1/2, and it doesn't look=20 wide enough to be a 4 1/2, so I'd say it's a pretty crummy 4. IMHO, of course, and if this was purchased by a galoot on the list, I'd contact the seller and see about getting out of this deal if=20 possible. Plus, always check B&G (Patrick Leech's Stanley Blood and Gore, http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0.htm) as a great first stop, online reference for plane/scraper questions. That would have told them that a #2 is only 7" long.=20 Jim Foster Minnesota > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas Johnson [mailto:thjo@f...] > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 2:21 PM > To: oldtools > Cc: oldtools > Subject: Re: [oldtools] And What Size? >=20 >=20 > Hi Karl, > If it's a #2, it seems to have sold for about 1/4 the value (1/2???) > It doesn't look like a #2 to me. The twisted lateral lever? the =20 > marking low on the lever cap? It looks like some fine print=20 > below the =20 > lever cap retaining bolt. It would be fun to have someone=20 > chip in who =20 > got it or knows what it really is. >=20 > Tom >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mar 8, 2004, at 2:06 PM, Karl W. Sanger wrote: >=20 > > Galoots, > > I hope one of you is not the buyer. What size is this=20 > and did it =20 > > sell for about 4 times it's value? > > < =20 > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?=20 > > ViewItem&item=3D3278314449&category=3D13874 > > > > > > > *********************************************** > > * Karl W. Sanger * > > * Desperately seeking antique * > > * Machinist Tools!!! * > > * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * > > * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * > > *********************************************** > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=3Doldtools > > >=20 >=20 > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=3Doldtools >=20 ---- Start of Message 130319 (thread 50459) ---- From: "Jon Endres, PE" Date: 2004-03-08 17:09:35 Subject: RE: And What Size? Looks like a run-of-the-mill #4 to me, and the size is about right. > -----Original Message----- > From: Karl W. Sanger [mailto:sangerkw@m...] > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 3:06 PM > To: oldtools > Subject: [oldtools] And What Size? > > > Galoots, > I hope one of you is not the buyer. What size is this and > did it sell for > about 4 times it's value? > < > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3278314449&cate > gory=13874 > > > > *********************************************** > * Karl W. Sanger * > * Desperately seeking antique * > * Machinist Tools!!! * > * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * > * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * > *********************************************** > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 130322 (thread 50459) ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-03-08 18:46:32 Subject: Re: And What Size? Thomas Johnson wrote: > Hi Karl, > If it's a #2, it seems to have sold for about 1/4 the value (1/2???) > It doesn't look like a #2 to me. The twisted lateral lever? the > marking low on the lever cap? It looks like some fine print below the > lever cap retaining bolt. It would be fun to have someone chip in who > got it or knows what it really is. > > Tom > GG And it is 9-1/2" long - more like a #3. Looks like a $4 plane to me. Ed Minch Just back from the Napa Valley where they have beat up and painted red Millers-Falls breast drills for $110 ---- Start of Message 130328 (thread 50459) ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 2004-03-08 20:13:56 Subject: Re: And What Size? Looks like Granny made another killer sale. At 03:06 PM 3/8/2004 -0500, Karl W. Sanger wrote: >Galoots, > I hope one of you is not the buyer. What size is this and did it > sell for about 4 times it's value? ---- Start of Message 130354 (thread 50459) ---- From: "Kaye, Danny" Date: 2004-03-09 11:34:53 Subject: RE: And What Size? aXQgc2F5cyA5biAxLzIgaW5jaCBsb25nIHNvIGl0cyBub3QgYSAjMiwgSSBhc3N1bWUgYSAjNCBv ciAgIzQgMS8yDQogDQpkYW5ueQ0KDQoJLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0gDQoJRnJv bTogVGhvbWFzIEpvaG5zb24gW21haWx0bzp0aGpvQGZyb250aWVybmV0Lm5ldF0gDQoJU2VudDog TW9uIDA4LzAzLzIwMDQgMjA6MjAgDQoJVG86IG9sZHRvb2xzIA0KCUNjOiBvbGR0b29scyANCglT dWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW29sZHRvb2xzXSBBbmQgV2hhdCBTaXplPw0KCQ0KCQ0KDQoJSGkgS2FybCwN CglJZiBpdCdzIGEgIzIsIGl0IHNlZW1zIHRvIGhhdmUgc29sZCBmb3IgYWJvdXQgMS80IHRoZSB2 YWx1ZSAoMS8yPz8/KQ0KCUl0IGRvZXNuJ3QgbG9vayBsaWtlIGEgIzIgdG8gbWUuICBUaGUgdHdp c3RlZCBsYXRlcmFsIGxldmVyPyAgdGhlIA0KCW1hcmtpbmcgbG93IG9uIHRoZSBsZXZlciBjYXA/ ICBJdCBsb29rcyBsaWtlIHNvbWUgZmluZSBwcmludCBiZWxvdyB0aGUgDQoJbGV2ZXIgY2FwIHJl dGFpbmluZyBib2x0LiAgSXQgd291bGQgYmUgZnVuIHRvIGhhdmUgc29tZW9uZSBjaGlwIGluIHdo byANCglnb3QgaXQgb3Iga25vd3Mgd2hhdCBpdCByZWFsbHkgaXMuDQoJDQoJVG9tDQoJDQoJDQoJ DQoJT24gTWFyIDgsIDIwMDQsIGF0IDI6MDYgUE0sIEthcmwgVy4gU2FuZ2VyIHdyb3RlOg0KCQ0K CT4gR2Fsb290cywNCgk+ICAgICAgIEkgaG9wZSBvbmUgb2YgeW91IGlzIG5vdCB0aGUgYnV5ZXIu ICBXaGF0IHNpemUgaXMgdGhpcyBhbmQgZGlkIGl0IA0KCT4gc2VsbCBmb3IgYWJvdXQgNCB0aW1l cyBpdCdzIHZhbHVlPw0KCT4gICAgICAgPCANCgk+IGh0dHA6Ly9jZ2kuZWJheS5jb20vd3MvZUJh eUlTQVBJLmRsbD8NCgk+IFZpZXdJdGVtJml0ZW09MzI3ODMxNDQ0OSZjYXRlZ29yeT0xMzg3NCA+ DQoJPg0KCT4NCgk+ICoqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioq KioqDQoJPiAqICAgS2FybCBXLiBTYW5nZXIgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg Kg0KCT4gKiAgICAgICAgRGVzcGVyYXRlbHkgc2Vla2luZyBhbnRpcXVlICAgICAgICoNCgk+ICog ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIE1hY2hpbmlzdCBUb29scyEhISAgICAgICAgICAgKg0KCT4gKiAo RW1haWw6IHNhbmdlcmt3QG1pbmRzcHJpbmcuY29tKSAgICoNCgk+ICogICAgIGluIHRoZSBOYXR1 cmUgQ29hc3QgYXJlYSwgRmxvcmlkYSAgICAqDQoJPiAqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioq KioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKg0KCT4NCgk+IEFyY2hpdmU6IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZnJvbnRp ZXIuaWFyYy51YWYuZWR1L35jc3dpbmdsZS9hcmNoaXZlLw0KCT4gVG8gdW5zdWJzY3JpYmUgb3Ig Y2hhbmdlIG9wdGlvbnMsIHVzZSB0aGUgd2ViIGludGVyZmFjZToNCgk+ICAgIGh0dHA6Ly9nYWxv b3RzLmxhdy5jb3JuZWxsLmVkdTo4MS9yZWFkLz9mb3J1bT1vbGR0b29scw0KCT4NCgkNCgkNCglB cmNoaXZlOiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmZyb250aWVyLmlhcmMudWFmLmVkdS9+Y3N3aW5nbGUvYXJjaGl2 ZS8NCglUbyB1bnN1YnNjcmliZSBvciBjaGFuZ2Ugb3B0aW9ucywgdXNlIHRoZSB3ZWIgaW50ZXJm YWNlOg0KCSAgICBodHRwOi8vZ2Fsb290cy5sYXcuY29ybmVsbC5lZHU6ODEvcmVhZC8/Zm9ydW09 b2xkdG9vbHMNCgkNCg0K ---- Start of Message 130401 (thread 50459) ---- From: "John Pesut" Date: 2004-03-09 16:06:23 Subject: Re: And What Size? This message was dangerously close to not making it through my spam filter... Subject: RE: [oldtools] And What Size? > it says 9n 1/2 inch long so its not a #2, I assume a #4 or #4 1/2 ++++ End of thread 50459 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50460 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130306 (thread 50460) ---- From: "YARROW, GARY" Date: 2004-03-08 14:14:44 Subject: FW: RE: [oldtools] ??? new forests > > At a good friend's wedding a few summers ago, I met his > father, the > > chief engineer of a wood-burning electrical plant in Michigan---one > > can only assume that there are more of these around---another reason > > to say "NO" to plugs, IYAM---- Some of these wood powered plants are actually coming back, of course, they are now called "biomass generators", and can burn almost anything with carbon in it. When I was in grad school at the Univ of MN, they had a program looking for the fastest growing birch/poplar/and others in genetic stocks. There are now farms devoted to growing and cutting these things for biomass. It was amazing how fast some of them grew. Essentially, its just like growing corn, except with a 3-7 year cycle, instead of one year. They are using old mined areas, rough areas, not prime forest land. To me, its not a bad idea, since they are also sucking up some waste carbon (of course then releasing it eventually), but its better than tearing up more land for coal. Gary ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dr. Gary L. Yarrow, Director/RSO/CCHO Environmental Health and Safety SH 059; Box 2202 South Dakota State University Brookings, SD 57007-0796 605-688-6332 > ++++ End of thread 50460 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50461 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130307 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 2004-03-08 15:10:08 Subject: Shipping Costs Galoots, The items says, "Buyer pays all shipping costs". The item will fit in a box 34 inches, by 10 inches by 10 inches. It weighs more more than 10 pounds. Would you pay $29.50 from a northern east coast city to central Florida? No insurance! Anyone know of a complaint department on eBay for reporting sellers who are profiting on shipping? Karl ---- Start of Message 130313 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Carl Matthews" Date: 2004-03-08 14:35:19 Subject: RE: Shipping Costs Hi Karl and GG's, I had a similar problem with a package. The seller would only use the USPS. For a vise, this was not cheap. EBay has some rules regarding charges at http://www.ebay.com/help/policies/listing-surcharges.html. For now on, I request a shipping quote for all items which I'm interested prior to bidding. Best regards, ....Carl=20 PS - I prefer FedEx ground over UPS ground due package damage. > -----Original Message----- > From: Karl W. Sanger [mailto:sangerkw@m...]=20 > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 2:10 PM > To: oldtools > Subject: [oldtools] Shipping Costs >=20 > Galoots, > The items says, "Buyer pays all shipping costs". The=20 > item will fit in a box 34 inches, by 10 inches by 10 inches. =20 > It weighs more more than 10 pounds. Would you pay $29.50=20 > from a northern east coast city to central Florida? No insurance! > Anyone know of a complaint department on eBay for=20 > reporting sellers who are profiting on shipping? >=20 > Karl >=20 > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=3Doldtools >=20 >=20 ---- Start of Message 130314 (thread 50461) ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-03-08 15:42:26 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs Karl asked: > The items says, "Buyer pays all shipping costs". The item will fit in a > box 34 inches, by 10 inches by 10 inches. It weighs more more than 10 > pounds. Would you pay $29.50 from a northern east coast city to central > Florida? No insurance! > Anyone know of a complaint department on eBay for reporting sellers who > are profiting on shipping? > I have had similar things happen. I have contacted the seller and told them they did not advertise the handling fee and that their fee was unreasonable. I have asked them to reduce it to actual shipping cost, or I would leave negative (and true) feedback. In both cases that I experienced, they got much more reasonable very quickly. Chris ---- Start of Message 130318 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Sanford Moss" Date: 2004-03-08 17:02:43 Subject: RE: Shipping Costs Karl asks; >The items says, "Buyer pays all shipping costs". The item will fit in a >box 34 inches, by 10 inches by 10 inches. It weighs more more than 10 >pounds. Would you pay $29.50 from a northern east coast city to central >Florida? No insurance! Karl & all, I ship many packages each week, so maybe this qualifies for a comment or two. Your package, at 10 lbs, would ship from my house (not in a city, but "northern east coast") for about $14.00 priority mail, usps. That's what I'd charge you. BUT: In addition to postage, "shipping costs" can reasonably include the price of the packaging materials, plus the labor costs associated with packing and addressing, and the travel costs to the post office (or pick-up charges). If you've priced shipping boxes, bubble wrap, "peanuts", and shipping labels lately, you know that these materials can cost several dollars for a package of the cited size. Properly set up, it might take me, say, 15 minutes to properly pack and label such an item (that's 1/4 of an hour of labor). Even at minimum wage, you are talking a couple of dollars. My trip to and from the post office requires 10 miles of driving. That's another 3 bucks or so, given the federal tax deduction for milage. So add it all up, and I think $29.50 may not be such an unreasonable figure for "all shipping costs." Methinks that galoots who pay just "exact postage" for shipping costs are getting a deal. But I don't think your eBay dealer is working to make a profit on shipping. Best regards, Sandy _________________________________________________________________ Frustrated with dial-up? Lightning-fast Internet access for as low as $29.95/month. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/ ---- Start of Message 130320 (thread 50461) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-08 17:33:54 Subject: RE: Shipping Costs I have also experience hidden charges, though nothing extravagant. However, I have also had the opposite happen more than once, where the actual charges on the box were quite a bit more than what was quoted and what I paid. So I figure it all evens out in the end and don't get too exited (anymore). Paul Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130324 (thread 50461) ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-03-08 19:20:11 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs I sell a good many tools on the ebay and I charge just what it cost's me to ship.Since I do this I can not if the item weighs over a pound put in the items description what the shipping charges will be.I certainly don't mind if a serious bidder emails me and ask what it will be to ship to their address and I look it up and tell them. Of course I get many emails like this..." I don't know what you are trying to pull but I see you have not including what the shipping costs are for the plane, I will not bid until I know how much you will be charging to ship it to me"..... I write back explaining to them I charge the actual shipping cost and never any handling and that is why I don't include it in the auction because I don't know where I will be sending it till after the auction and the further they are from me the more it will cost to ship.. Even though I have placed my forehead on my monitor screen over their email I have not been able to use my psychic abilities to come up where exactly they are and where I would be shipping the plane so how about they give me a little hint and I will give them then a price because other wise I don't know if they live in the next state over, California, Lower Slobovia or that new Slow Head colony on the far side of the Moon. Even though I try to charge the actual shipping sometimes I can be slightly off, just as likely to not charge enough as to much. Had one guy once leave me a negative, out of the blue with out even contacting me because I charged him .40 cents to much. I would have happly sent him the .40 cents if he had brought it to my attention but he didn't. Another time got several very nasty emails because I charged .10 cents to much! I taped a dime to a post card and sent it to him and he calmed down. I had a crazy friend that sometimes put right in his description that he is charging an extra fee on top of his postage because he doesn't think the tool will sell for enough and he wants to make the difference up in added postage!....He never had any complaints either...go figure, eh?.....Todd ---- Start of Message 130326 (thread 50461) ---- From: Mark Marsay Date: 2004-03-09 00:21:36 Subject: RE: Shipping Costs Hmmm. My previous reply to this got bounced from the list as I was using my missus' address. To paraphrase a small essay: with Ebay, there is the option to contact the vendor before bidding and ask for the shipping costs. No one forces a person to bid if they find the costs excessive! I know that "paying actual shipping costs" costs me money rather than the buyer, and on a high volume, low unit profit line like old tools it adds up rather quickly! Regards, Mark Marsay (who has had a huge number of complaints about shipping costs - its not my fault if the buyer lives in the wrong country!!) Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. > >Subject: RE: [oldtools] Shipping Costs From: "Sanford Moss" > Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 17:02:43 -0500 To: "oldtools" > > >Karl asks; > >>The items says, "Buyer pays all shipping costs". The item will fit in >>a box 34 inches, by 10 inches by 10 inches. It weighs more more than >>10 pounds. Would you pay $29.50 from a northern east coast city to >>central Florida? No insurance! > >Karl & all, > >I ship many packages each week, so maybe this qualifies for a comment >or two. Your package, at 10 lbs, would ship from my house (not in a >city, but "northern east coast") for about $14.00 priority mail, usps. >That's what I'd charge you. > >BUT: In addition to postage, "shipping costs" can reasonably include >the price of the packaging materials, plus the labor costs associated >with packing and addressing, and the travel costs to the post office >(or pick-up charges). > >If you've priced shipping boxes, bubble wrap, "peanuts", and shipping >labels lately, you know that these materials can cost several dollars >for a package of the cited size. Properly set up, it might take me, >say, 15 minutes to properly pack and label such an item (that's 1/4 of >an hour of labor). Even at minimum wage, you are talking a couple of >dollars. My trip to and from the post office requires 10 miles of >driving. That's another 3 bucks or so, given the federal tax deduction >for milage. > >So add it all up, and I think $29.50 may not be such an unreasonable >figure for "all shipping costs." Methinks that galoots who pay just >"exact postage" for shipping costs are getting a deal. But I don't >think your eBay dealer is working to make a profit on shipping. > >Best regards, Sandy > >_________________________________________________________________ >Frustrated with dial-up? Lightning-fast Internet access for as low as >$29.95/month. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/ > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130327 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Brian McInturff" Date: 2004-03-08 19:59:44 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs I sell occasionally on ebay and I charge shipping based on the item and packing. I sold a gerstner once, took me 3 hours to wrap, box, pack, box again in larger box and stand in line at UPS. I charged the buyer 30 dollars. Actual charges wer 27.50. Of course the buyer got mad and said he felt he shouldn't have to pay the extra 2.50. He said I was the one wanting to get rid of it. I told him, true, but he was the one wanting it. He paid and left a good feedback but he was still disgruntled. Glad I don't depend on this for a living. Oh he did email me later and said he was suprised at such a nice thorough packing I did on the chest. I typically will round up to the nearest amount. Less than 10.00 on shipping gets rounded to the next dollar. Over 25 then to the next 2.50 increment. But some people complain about having to pay for insurance or delivery confirmation. If the person pays by paypal delivery confirmation is mandatory. Check paypal policy and you'll understand. Brian McInturff philatelist@e... > [Original Message] > From: todd Hughes > To: oldtools > Date: 3/8/2004 7:24:56 PM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shipping Costs > > I sell a good many tools on the ebay and I charge just what it cost's me to > ship.Since I do this I can not if the item weighs over a pound put in the > items description what the shipping charges will be.I certainly don't mind > if a serious bidder emails me and ask what it will be to ship to their > address and I look it up and tell them. Of course I get many emails like > this..." I don't know what you are trying to pull but I see you have not > including what the shipping costs are for the plane, I will not bid until I > know how much you will be charging to ship it to me"..... I write back > explaining to them I charge the actual shipping cost and never any handling > and that is why I don't include it in the auction because I don't know where > I will be sending it till after the auction and the further they are from > me the more it will cost to ship.. Even though I have placed my forehead on > my monitor screen over their email I have not been able to use my psychic > abilities to come up where exactly they are and where I would be shipping > the plane so how about they give me a little hint and I will give them then > a price because other wise I don't know if they live in the next state over, > California, Lower Slobovia or that new Slow Head colony on the far side of > the Moon. > Even though I try to charge the actual shipping sometimes I can be > slightly off, just as likely to not charge enough as to much. Had one guy > once leave me a negative, out of the blue with out even contacting me > because I charged him .40 cents to much. I would have happly sent him the > .40 cents if he had brought it to my attention but he didn't. Another time > got several very nasty emails because I charged .10 cents to much! I taped a > dime to a post card and sent it to him and he calmed down. I had a crazy > friend that sometimes put right in his description that he is charging an > extra fee on top of his postage because he doesn't think the tool will sell > for enough and he wants to make the difference up in added postage!....He > never had any complaints either...go figure, eh?.....Todd > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130329 (thread 50461) ---- From: Paul Honore Date: 2004-03-08 20:17:23 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs At 03:10 PM 3/8/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Galoots, > The items says, "Buyer pays all shipping costs". The item will fit in a >box 34 inches, by 10 inches by 10 inches. It weighs more more than 10 >pounds. Would you pay $29.50 from a northern east coast city to central >Florida? No insurance! > Anyone know of a complaint department on eBay for reporting sellers who >are profiting on shipping? > That's a tough one. Sounds a little high but if he's shipping through one of those services like Mailboxes USA (which I think is owned by UPS now), that's probably not too far off, particularly if they're doing the packing. I have a local store I can ship UPS through; they just add $4 to their daily pickup rate. I've never figured why UPS charges more if you bring a parcel to one of their real service counters than if you have daily pickup. I've ship a lot of packages and FedExGround is definitely the cheapest for anything 3 lbs and over going more than a couple of hundred miles (and insurance up to $100 is included) Parcel Post is generally cheaper for short distances and Media Mail is the best of all if you're doing books. Paul Honore Hebron CT (another 2" of snow today) ---- Start of Message 130330 (thread 50461) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-08 20:24:51 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs > pay for insurance or delivery confirmation. If the person pays by > paypal delivery confirmation is mandatory. Check paypal policy > and you'll understand. Virtually everything I buy via eBay is paid for with PayPal. Almost none of it comes to me requiring delivery confirmation. You may be right that PayPal "requires" this but they don't require it very much :-) In my view, the biggest problem with shipping and eBay is the inconsistency. If you buy enough stuff you're going to bump into people who are just too stupid to read USPS rates, too stupid to understand that the rates to Germany are different than the rates to Canada, and too stupid to understand that people are going to get upset if they're told that it's going to cost 3 times what it should to send something. The result is a leary customer base, expecting to be taken to the cleaners by shipping. Truth is, while I've had a couple situations where I've had to debate things like whether I should have to pay $22USD to send a paperback book to Canada, 99.9% of the transactions I'd had with people (as seller or buyer) have gone smooth as silk. I just try to keep my eye on the 'averages' and they look pretty good. Just received a beautiful wooden jointer today. Even nicer than I thought it would be from the photos. Paid via Pay Pal. Mailed via normal post. The guy should have charged me a couple bucks for all the bubble wrap he put around it. He didn't. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130331 (thread 50461) ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-03-08 20:49:37 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs Sandy Said: > > BUT: In addition to postage, "shipping costs" can reasonably include the > price of the packaging materials, plus the labor costs associated with > packing and addressing, and the travel costs to the post office (or pick-up > charges). > > If you've priced shipping boxes, bubble wrap, "peanuts", and shipping labels > lately, you know that these materials can cost several dollars for a package > of the cited size. Properly set up, it might take me, say, 15 minutes to > properly pack and label such an item (that's 1/4 of an hour of labor). Even > at minimum wage, you are talking a couple of dollars. My trip to and from > the post office requires 10 miles of driving. That's another 3 bucks or so, > given the federal tax deduction for milage. > > So add it all up, and I think $29.50 may not be such an unreasonable figure > for "all shipping costs." I certainly agree with Sandy that these are real costs. I also sell tools both on ebay and directly. There are real costs to shipping and packing. To me, the issue is what is assumed to be part of "the cost of doing business", and what is the customer told about any additional costs. Anybody who buys and sells tools runs into additional costs beyond what they pay for the tool. There are costs of traveling to find and buy tools, time to research tools, time to travel to places to sell those tools, time to list them on ebay, or otherwise market those tools, pack and ship the tools,.... And more! Those are all real costs of doing business, and if the seller can't cover those costs (by the selling price being greater than the the purchase price), it is not rocket science to figure out that the seller looses money and they will go out of business fairly soon. If that happens, the seller does not get a fair return on their effort or their cash investment, and buyers loose out by having fewer items come to market. Shipping costs are part of the general category of "costs of doing business". Certainly the seller needs to cover these costs, and the costs that Sandy lists are by no means unreasonable. In my mind, the issue is, does the buyer have a reasonable idea of what the costs are (beyond any ebay bid price) in advance. One could easily and reasonably assume that shipping material, time, etc were part of a general "cost of doing business", and would be covered by the difference between the selling price and the price paid by the dealer. To me, the critical issue is does the buyer know _in advance_ what those extra costs (beyond the actual shipping price paid) will be. If the bidder knows, then it would be hard to imagine why they would have a complaint. On the other hand, if all of a sudden there is double or triple the actual shipping cost, I personally can't blame the buyer for being upset. I think this is even more true when the charges are listed only as "shipping" costs instead of "shipping and handling" costs. At least adding "handling" costs can alert the buyer to ask about all shipping and handling charges. As our economist friends say, "caveat emptor": buyer beware. However, it also seems reasonable for any seller to give a fair and accurate description of all shipping/handling costs _before_ the potential buyer bids. All of the good dealers I know of make their shipping and handling costs known to the buyer in advance. Then the buyer at least knows what their total costs will be and they can decide whether or not to buy the item. I don't think that it is very difficult for the seller to let those costs be known in advance. Just one man's opinion. Chris Waiting for the snow to start falling in West Lafayette, IN ---- Start of Message 130332 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Brian McInturff" Date: 2004-03-08 21:10:53 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs You may be right that PayPal "requires" this but they don't require it very much :-) Unfortunately there are some people starting to cash in on this. Saying they never received the item and getting their funds back from Paypal. For .35 and .55 it's well worth the insurance. If an item brings more than I think it typically should then I typically will eat the majority of shipping. As said before it all works out in the wash. Brian McInturff philatelist@e... ---- Start of Message 130333 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Sanford Moss" Date: 2004-03-08 21:19:18 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs Chris Berger wrote (and I can't resist the temptation to elaborate): > >Anybody who buys and sells tools runs into additional costs beyond what >they >pay for the tool. There are costs of traveling to find and buy tools, time >to research tools, time to travel to places to sell those tools, time to >list them on ebay, or otherwise market those tools, pack and ship the >tools,.... And more! Those are all real costs of doing business, and if the >seller can't cover those costs (by the selling price being greater than the >the purchase price), it is not rocket science to figure out that the seller >looses money and they will go out of business fairly soon. If that happens, >the seller does not get a fair return on their effort or their cash >investment, and buyers loose out by having fewer items come to market. And don't forget the cleaning. Not the polishing and burnishing that Karl points out, but just the removal of surface grundge. The big boys can get away with, "just needs a quick cleaning", but that is a caveat to reduce the labor input that honestly should be included. My second beef as a cost of doing business is PayPal. That organization (now part of eBay) baited the public with the idea that it was "free". Their profit was to be had from interest gained on their revolving bank deposits. Well that changed (classic bait and switch) and now the seller is tagged with about a 3% fee on all transactions. The seller is further barred from passing that charge onto the buyer. So, while this doesn't affect the large profit margins guys, 3% to me is substantial. So no PayPal logos on my site or auctions. I accept it as a curtesy to customers, but I'd much rather be paid by check or money order. It's just another nick in the "cost of doing business" that has the effect of increasing the cost of old tools. Sandy (who is snippy tonight, dealing with a virus infection on SWMBO's computer) _________________________________________________________________ Fast. Reliable. Get MSN 9 Dial-up - 3 months for the price of 1! (Limited-time Offer) http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ ---- Start of Message 130335 (thread 50461) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-08 21:38:40 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs > My second beef as a cost of doing business is PayPal. That I rarely do business online that isn't PayPal and it's worth it to me for buyers to use it as the money comes to me right away and I can close out the transaction immediately rather than having stuff sitting around with the expectation that a check will come...some day. > (classic bait and switch) and now the seller is tagged with about > a 3% fee on all transactions. The seller is further barred from > passing that charge onto the buyer. Just as with a credit card. > So no PayPal logos on my site or auctions. I accept it as a > curtesy to customers, but I'd much rather be paid by check or I will rarely even look at items that dont sport a PayPal logo anymore. The check/money_order thing is just too time consuming (whether I'm the seller or the buyer) and it's too expensive for me as a buyer. > money order. It's just another nick in the "cost of doing > business" that has the effect of increasing the cost of old > tools. The reason for a minimum bid is to set a price you will accept. If that doesn't cover your costs, you shouldn't be selling the item. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130336 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Brian McInturff" Date: 2004-03-08 21:43:12 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs Larry, On overseas items it's best not to draw attention. Besides, delivery confirmation only guarantees it to customs at that point anyway. Never had problems to Canada anyway. Europe I won't ship to, items have either been stolen or undesirable buyers, either way I lost. Brian McInturff philatelist@e... > [Original Message] > From: Larry Marshall > To: > Date: 3/8/2004 9:29:47 PM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shipping Costs > > > > Unfortunately there are some people starting to cash in on this. > > It's sad that honesty has become such a rare trait :-( > > > Saying they never received the item and getting their funds back > > from Paypal. For .35 and .55 it's well worth the insurance. If an > > item brings more than I think it typically should then I > > True, if you're going US to US. But consider this. If you were to > ship something to me in Canada, that little confirmation card would > cost me far more in all likelyhood. The reason is sort of goofy. > Here's how it plays out: > > 1) mail without card....for most stuff the package would go from > your door to my door without being processed through customs. Now, > technically, everything should go through customs. In practice, > most of the USPS stuff that comes to me doesn't. > > 2) mail with card....without a doubt the package would go through > customs as this seems to be the way in which USPS and Canada Post > move the signature back and forth. The result is that I pay 15% > taxes on whatever value you put on the box and then I get to pay > another $5 for the privilege of the Canadian government charging me > those taxes. > > Certainly not your problem, and I completely understand why people > want delivery confirmation. But it is a bit more costly for me > than half a buck :-) > > -- > Cheers --- Larry Marshall > Quebec City, QC > http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130339 (thread 50461) ---- From: "William West" Date: 2004-03-09 02:50:29 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs Gotta agree with Sandy, here, there is much more labor involved in selling tools than just about anything on e*ay. I like to think of a plane, for example, that I find "In the wild" as much akin to that chunk of granite with the sculpture inside. I spend much time bringing these planes back to respectable, not overcleaned condition and I love doing it. This is how I relax from a stressful day at work. And as for those Paypal charges... Recently got a payment of $7000 from some guy and the charge was $210... OW! THAT was a bite! But I honestly think that accepting paypal brings more bids. IMHO... Wm. West ---- Start of Message 130341 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Brian McInturff" Date: 2004-03-08 22:27:06 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs Remember, never take anything for granted. Most sellers are willing to quote a shipping price if they know your address. Or they have a set price. Small light weight items are either 3.85 or 5.75 from me since I use Priority mail. Sometimes buyers want to argue over that and say ship it using another way, I tell them sure, just send me a box and I will. Priority saves me from wasting time getting boxes. When I buy, I usually can come pretty close to what I think shipping will be, usually I've figured high. Brian McInturff philatelist@e... > [Original Message] > From: Larry Marshall > To: oldtools > Date: 3/8/2004 10:16:58 PM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shipping Costs > > > > My second beef as a cost of doing business is PayPal. That > > I rarely do business online that isn't PayPal and it's worth it to > me for buyers to use it as the money comes to me right away and I > can close out the transaction immediately rather than having stuff > sitting around with the expectation that a check will come...some > day. > > > (classic bait and switch) and now the seller is tagged with about > > a 3% fee on all transactions. The seller is further barred from > > passing that charge onto the buyer. > > Just as with a credit card. > > > So no PayPal logos on my site or auctions. I accept it as a > > curtesy to customers, but I'd much rather be paid by check or > > I will rarely even look at items that dont sport a PayPal logo > anymore. The check/money_order thing is just too time consuming > (whether I'm the seller or the buyer) and it's too expensive for me > as a buyer. > > > money order. It's just another nick in the "cost of doing > > business" that has the effect of increasing the cost of old > > tools. > > The reason for a minimum bid is to set a price you will accept. If > that doesn't cover your costs, you shouldn't be selling the item. > > -- > Cheers --- Larry Marshall > Quebec City, QC > http://www.woodnbits.com > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130342 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-03-08 19:35:19 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs On 8 Mar 2004 at 22:27, Brian McInturff wrote: > Remember, never take anything for granted. Most sellers are willing to > quote a shipping price if they know your address. Or they have a set price. Many of us now use the built-in shipping calculator (free) wherein you specify shipping method and your postal code. The buyer can then figure out the exact shipping charges. This feature also allows you to put in the additional charges you wish to impose for packaging materials, gasoline to get to the post office, etc. The user does not get to see the breakdown, just the total. But that way they know up front what they will be paying, at least domestically. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 130392 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-03-09 15:06:07 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs Well stated Sandy. As someone who has been shipping via post, UPS and truck for nearly 16 years I can surely agree with you. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ++++ End of thread 50461 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50462 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130309 (thread 50462) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 2004-03-08 15:15:23 Subject: Shiny Does Pay! Galoots, Look at this one: < http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3278330975&category=13874 > Look close. Who thinks that is the factory finish on the sides? It is positively "brilliant'! Almost as shiny as that extra $77 it brought over more patinated versions! Maybe if more effort had been put into the iron it could have topped $200? *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * *********************************************** ++++ End of thread 50462 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50463 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130321 (thread 50463) ---- From: David W Tardiff Date: 2004-03-08 18:29:57 Subject: WTB: Leatherworking tools Recently my young GIT has become interested in working leather....you know, "tooling" it with stamps and such, and sewing or lacing it into useful forms. He came up with this new hobby by acquiring an alphabet stamping set at a local craft store, but except for some pitiful bags of leather scraps and a few kits that all suggest tooling but don't supply the tools, there are no other items sold there. Pitiful, really...a galoot in need of tools and no source! So here's a query to the assorted dealers or other scroungers. Anyone got any old (not old enough to be really valuable) leather tools on hand and want to unload them? Assorted stamps might be nice, especially ones used to form larger patterns by multiples. Right now he can't do much other than stamp names. I thought I'd see what's out there before I start making my own... Any relevant information and other source hints would be welcome as well. Who can turn down a request for help in a new addiction? Regards, Dave T (and young Peter) ++++ End of thread 50463 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50464 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130323 (thread 50464) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-08 18:00:52 Subject: OT -- Sharpening -- What is it? No picture on this one. These recent interesting sharpening conversations reminded me I have one sharpening item I have no clue what its real use is or why it is made with the material it is made with. It is the oddest thing I have ever seen for a "stone" or a "hone". It's about a half an inch wide, half inch thick and about four inches long. It appears to a cork/grit mix. I'm not sure what the grit is. It might be diamond. On the back side it has some kind of metal holding thing that appears to be maybe glued on. It flanges out a bit on each side and then has two pencil sized holes evenly space at the point where 1/3 and 2/3 would be along its length. Probably used to hold it in something or on something, I imagine. The next part I have no idea if it is relevant or not. I found it in a light sliding box full of my dad's hand tied fishing flys. I think he may have gotten them back when usa occupied Japan in WW II. Or maybe I'm just making too much out of the fact it all came out of his old army footlocker that has sat untouched for decades. So I wonder if it meant for sharpening hooks or maybe a filet knife? Why in the world would anyone use cork in this? ---- Start of Message 130364 (thread 50464) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-09 14:07:17 Subject: re: OT -- Sharpening -- What is it? The box of fishing flies is probably the big clue. A hook sharpener, maybe. You spend all that time tediously lashing pieces of feather or whatever to that little bitty hook and you sure don't wanna throw it away when the hook gets dull or rusty. Just my guess. ++++ End of thread 50464 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50465 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130334 (thread 50465) ---- From: Paul Honore Date: 2004-03-08 21:32:39 Subject: Re: Paypal Charges was Shipping Costs At 09:19 PM 3/8/2004 -0500, Sandy wrote: >My second beef as a cost of doing business is PayPal. That organization >(now part of eBay) baited the public with the idea that it was "free". >Their profit was to be had from interest gained on their revolving bank >deposits. Well that changed (classic bait and switch) and now the seller is >tagged with about a 3% fee on all transactions. The seller is further >barred from passing that charge onto the buyer. So, while this doesn't >affect the large profit margins guys, 3% to me is substantial. So no PayPal >logos on my site or auctions. I accept it as a curtesy to customers, but >I'd much rather be paid by check or money order. It's just another nick in >the "cost of doing business" that has the effect of increasing the cost of >old tools. > There is an option where there there is no charge to the seller (recipient of the funds) as long as all payments are coming from a bank account or a balance. While some would say this defeats the purpose of PP because no credit cards can be used, I've not had many complaints from buyers about it. Paul Honore Hebron CT ---- Start of Message 130349 (thread 50465) ---- From: "Frank Filippone" Date: 2004-03-08 22:28:41 Subject: RE: Paypal Charges was Shipping Costs Paypal figured this one out.... They limit the "free" receipt of money ( no matter the source) to $1000 per month..... So figure it costs 5% to list and sell your item, then 3% more to collect, and the option for a personal check is really pretty attractive for us non-pros. Frank Filippone red735i@e... There is an option where there there is no charge to the seller (recipient of the funds) as long as all payments are coming from a bank account or a balance. ++++ End of thread 50465 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50466 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130337 (thread 50466) ---- From: Mark Marsay Date: 2004-03-09 02:48:00 Subject: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs Just a quick query, as a lot of sellers seem to be responding today. On Ebay, do you find a reserve auction or a minimum starting bid to be the most acceptable to buyers? I still haven't decided either way, though at the moment I lean towards minimum bid, simply to prevent myself getting stuck with the reserve fee if the item doesn't sell. Regards, Mark Marsay, (who is up at 3 am completing a glue up and a polishing for a very impatient client) Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. > >Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shipping Costs From: "Brian McInturff" > Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 21:43:12 -0500 To: "oldtools" > > Cc: "oldtools" > > >Larry, On overseas items it's best not to draw attention. Besides, >delivery confirmation only guarantees it to customs at that point >anyway. Never had problems to Canada anyway. Europe I won't ship to, >items have either been stolen or undesirable buyers, either way I lost. >Brian McInturff philatelist@e... > > >> [Original Message] From: Larry Marshall To: >> Date: 3/8/2004 9:29:47 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] >> Shipping Costs >> >> >> > Unfortunately there are some people starting to cash in on this. >> >> It's sad that honesty has become such a rare trait :-( >> >> > Saying they never received the item and getting their funds back >> > from Paypal. For .35 and .55 it's well worth the insurance. If an >> > item brings more than I think it typically should then I >> >> True, if you're going US to US. But consider this. If you were to >> ship something to me in Canada, that little confirmation card would >> cost me far more in all likelyhood. The reason is sort of goofy. >> Here's how it plays out: >> >> 1) mail without card....for most stuff the package would go from your >> door to my door without being processed through customs. Now, >> technically, everything should go through customs. In practice, >> most of the USPS stuff that comes to me doesn't. >> >> 2) mail with card....without a doubt the package would go through >> customs as this seems to be the way in which USPS and Canada Post >> move the signature back and forth. The result is that I pay 15% >> taxes on whatever value you put on the box and then I get to pay >> another $5 for the privilege of the Canadian government charging >> me those taxes. >> >> Certainly not your problem, and I completely understand why people >> want delivery confirmation. But it is a bit more costly for me than >> half a buck :-) >> >> -- >> Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com > > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130338 (thread 50466) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-08 18:55:28 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs On Monday, March 8, 2004, at 06:48 PM, Mark Marsay wrote: > > Just a quick query, as a lot of sellers seem to be responding today. > On Ebay, do you find a reserve auction or a minimum starting bid to be > the most acceptable to buyers? I still haven't decided either way, > though at the moment I lean towards minimum bid, simply to prevent > myself getting stuck with the reserve fee if the item doesn't sell. > I'd like to know about this too. I haven't sold anything yet, but my pile has started to exceed my storage capacity, so I expect to start soon. Looking into the various fees involved it looks like you could easily wind up with costs of about 10% of the selling price. Does that seem accurate? Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130340 (thread 50466) ---- From: "William West" Date: 2004-03-09 03:00:42 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs I just start 'em all at $9.99 and let the chips fall, no reserve. Has worked for me so far, no problems. -Wm. West ---- Start of Message 130344 (thread 50466) ---- From: "Brian McInturff" Date: 2004-03-08 22:45:30 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs I think this depends on what it is. If it's an item that won't generate many bids to begin with like a Stanley 6 then starting at 9.95 may generate you 9.95 so be careful. Heavy items like tools require a little thought and the right buyer. I sold a Red Devil ta*led paint shaker. Doubled what I paid for it, the buyer just happened to be coming hear the following weeks so she was able to do a local pickup. I learned real quick, that Stanley 6 I mentioned was one of my first sales. Now I pay a little closer attention. I much rather sale my tools at the Antique store anyway. Myrtle Beach is a tool H*ll so people appreciate the finds. Brian McInturff philatelist@e... > [Original Message] > From: William West > To: oldtools > Date: 3/8/2004 10:37:26 PM > Subject: Re:[oldtools] Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs > > I just start 'em all at $9.99 and let the chips fall, no reserve. Has worked for me so far, no problems. > > -Wm. West > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130345 (thread 50466) ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-03-08 22:46:19 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs Jim Thompson wrote: > > On Monday, March 8, 2004, at 06:48 PM, Mark Marsay wrote: > >> >> Just a quick query, as a lot of sellers seem to be responding today. >> On Ebay, do you find a reserve auction or a minimum starting bid to be >> the most acceptable to buyers? I still haven't decided either way, >> though at the moment I lean towards minimum bid, simply to prevent >> myself getting stuck with the reserve fee if the item doesn't sell. >> > > I'd like to know about this too. I haven't sold anything yet, but my > pile has started to exceed my storage capacity, so I expect to start soon. > > Looking into the various fees involved it looks like you could easily > wind up with costs of about 10% of the selling price. Does that seem > accurate? I use a minimum bid. It's open and honest, and people can make their own judgements as to if they want to bid. Though I have never succumbed to using this particular trick, using a minimum bid (vs. a reserve) allows you to honestly promote your item as "NO RESERVE" for more eyeballs. not sure if that actually fools anyone, but given what advertising is out there now, who can say? ---- Start of Message 130346 (thread 50466) ---- From: Mark Marsay Date: 2004-03-09 04:05:46 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs >I much rather sale my tools at the Antique store anyway. Myrtle Beach >is a tool H*ll so people appreciate the finds. > >Brian McInturff philatelist@e... I don't sell MY tools - at least not without a lot of kicking, screaming, tears and stamping of feet, usually done by me :-) Regards, Mark Marsay, Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. > >> [Original Message] From: William West To: oldtools >> Date: 3/8/2004 10:37:26 PM Subject: Re:[oldtools] >> Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs >> >> I just start 'em all at $9.99 and let the chips fall, no reserve. Has >worked for me so far, no problems. >> >> -Wm. West Archive: >> http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >> To unsubscribe or change options, use the web >> interface: http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?- >> forum=oldtools > > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130347 (thread 50466) ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-03-08 23:22:05 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs I think one of the biggest mistakes sellers make on ebay is starting something out to high instead of starting low and using a reserve. Think if you are at a live auction and the auctioneer holds up a plane you may want.He asks for an opening bid of $100 . How many times does someone jump up and bid the $100? unless it is worth a lot more probably never instead he most likely will not get a bid till he gets down to $10 or $20 and then the bidding goes on till it can be well over the first opening bid tried. I think there are several reasons for this, no one likes to think they are paying more for something then it is worth and if they jump in at a big price early on before others bid you tend to wonder.Plus starting low let others bid that might not bid high enough to win but will tend to provide competition and get people interested and show them that others are after what they want to.If somebody else thinks that plane is worth $98 it must be worth $100 eh?.Is human nature I think to want to compete with others on what you want and just "go a bit" higher. I have seen an item that I started high not get a bid but when I relisted it at a low price with a reserve,[the same as the high opening bid] sell for a good bit more then what the original opening bid would have been. Will mention that i put reserves on about everything i sell and since I actually sell about 95% of what i list I normaly do not have to pay to much in the way of extra fees because I use reserves since you are only charged if your item doesn't sell I don't take PayPal , I think it posers to much of a chance that I will send the item to the wrong address or place , I want to be paid by somthing that comes in the mail and tells me what it is for and where to send it.Also I don't like the fact I am being charged for somthing someone else wants to use.Have sold thousands of items and only twice have i had complaints because i don't use it so I don't think it cost's me any bussiness.I consider myself pretty lazy and i sure don't have any trouble writting a check and putting it in the mail to pay my bills so don't see why anybody else would. Forigners can use the service Bidpay if they want....Todd ---- Start of Message 130348 (thread 50466) ---- From: Paul Honore Date: 2004-03-08 23:59:09 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs At 06:55 PM 3/8/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >I'd like to know about this too. I haven't sold anything yet, but my >pile has started to exceed my storage capacity, so I expect to start >soon. > >Looking into the various fees involved it looks like you could easily >wind up with costs of about 10% of the selling price. Does that seem >accurate? Depends on the item - if it appeals to a lot of people and will draw bids, you don't need a reserve and you can start at 99 cents and get "fair market value". If it doesn't have a wide appeal, and you want to guarantee a certain $ amount, put on a reserve. I think that you always get more bids when you have a low starting price ($9.99) or less. Lots of people won't bid if the starting price is $50, but if you suck them in at $9.99, they might get caught up in auction fever and go to $100. That's just human nature. On a $25 sale, you'll pay $1.50 - $ 2.50 (6% - 10%) based on starting price. On a $100 item , you'll pay $3 or so (3%) depending on where you start and if there's a reserve, etc. Paypal charges are on addon to that. "Buy it now" (at a fixed price) is also another way to go which I like. You've really got to study Ebay and watch the sales to see what's popular and what is not as well as representative prices for "commodity" items like a Stanley #4, etc. Paul Honore Hebron CT ---- Start of Message 130355 (thread 50466) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-09 07:12:48 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs > to use.Have sold thousands of items and only twice have i had > complaints because i don't use it so I don't think it cost's me > any bussiness.I consider myself pretty lazy and i sure don't have Several people have said "I've never had any complaints" regarding not taking PayPal, not taking it when the money comes from a credit card, etc. I think you have every right to sell your stuff the way you want to sell it but not getting complaints doesn't mean that you aren't losing sales because of it. I pass on items all the tiem because of these non-practices. I don't complain...I just don't bid. Same with items with reserves on them Todd, you paint a picture of someone not wanting to 'bid too much' on something with a high minimum. Have you considered the flip side? I simply don't waste time when someone sticks a minimum bid and then reserve because I see it as the seller hiding his minimum bid and I'm not going to play the game. People aren't so stupid that they can't figure out that you're trying to bait them into bidding with a low price and that the 'real' price is hidden from view. > any trouble writting a check and putting it in the mail to pay my > bills so don't see why anybody else would. Forigners can use the > service Bidpay if they want. Not this 'forigner' (sic). -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ------------------------------------------------------- -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130357 (thread 50466) ---- From: "Kaye, Danny" Date: 2004-03-09 13:28:36 Subject: RE: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs TWUgdG9vLCBpZiB0aGUgaXRlbSBpcyBub3Qgc29tZXRoaW5nIEkgUkVBTExZIHdhbnQgSSB3aWxs IG5vdCBib3RoZXIgaWYgdGhleSBkbyBub3QgdGFrZSBwYXlwYWwsIEkgZG9uJ3QgZXZlbiBtaW5k IGEgc21hbGwgcHJlbWl1bSBmb3IgdXNpbmcgaXQuDQogDQpkYW5ueQ0KDQoJLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5h bCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0gDQoJRnJvbTogTGFycnkgTWFyc2hhbGwgW21haWx0bzpsYXJyeUB3b29k bmJpdHMuY29tXSANCglTZW50OiBUdWUgMDkvMDMvMjAwNCAxMjoxMiANCglUbzogb2xkdG9vbHMg DQoJQ2M6IA0KCVN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbb2xkdG9vbHNdIE1pbmltdW0gYmlkIHZzIHJlc2VydmUs IHdhcyBTaGlwcGluZyBDb3N0cw0KCQ0KCQ0KDQoNCgk+IHRvIHVzZS5IYXZlIHNvbGQgdGhvdXNh bmRzIG9mIGl0ZW1zIGFuZCBvbmx5IHR3aWNlIGhhdmUgaSBoYWQNCgk+IGNvbXBsYWludHMgYmVj YXVzZSBpIGRvbid0IHVzZSBpdCBzbyBJIGRvbid0IHRoaW5rIGl0IGNvc3QncyBtZQ0KCT4gYW55 IGJ1c3NpbmVzcy5JIGNvbnNpZGVyIG15c2VsZiBwcmV0dHkgbGF6eSBhbmQgaSBzdXJlIGRvbid0 IGhhdmUNCgkNCglTZXZlcmFsIHBlb3BsZSBoYXZlIHNhaWQgIkkndmUgbmV2ZXIgaGFkIGFueSBj b21wbGFpbnRzIiByZWdhcmRpbmcNCglub3QgdGFraW5nIFBheVBhbCwgbm90IHRha2luZyBpdCB3 aGVuIHRoZSBtb25leSBjb21lcyBmcm9tIGEgY3JlZGl0DQoJY2FyZCwgZXRjLiAgSSB0aGluayB5 b3UgaGF2ZSBldmVyeSByaWdodCB0byBzZWxsIHlvdXIgc3R1ZmYgdGhlIHdheQ0KCXlvdSB3YW50 IHRvIHNlbGwgaXQgYnV0IG5vdCBnZXR0aW5nIGNvbXBsYWludHMgZG9lc24ndCBtZWFuIHRoYXQN Cgl5b3UgYXJlbid0IGxvc2luZyBzYWxlcyBiZWNhdXNlIG9mIGl0LiAgSSBwYXNzIG9uIGl0ZW1z IGFsbCB0aGUNCgl0aWVtIGJlY2F1c2Ugb2YgdGhlc2Ugbm9uLXByYWN0aWNlcy4NCgkNCglJIGRv bid0IGNvbXBsYWluLi4uSSBqdXN0IGRvbid0IGJpZC4gIFNhbWUgd2l0aCBpdGVtcyB3aXRoIHJl c2VydmVzDQoJb24gdGhlbSAgVG9kZCwgeW91IHBhaW50IGEgcGljdHVyZSBvZiBzb21lb25lIG5v dCB3YW50aW5nIHRvICdiaWQNCgl0b28gbXVjaCcgb24gc29tZXRoaW5nIHdpdGggYSBoaWdoIG1p bmltdW0uICBIYXZlIHlvdSBjb25zaWRlcmVkDQoJdGhlIGZsaXAgc2lkZT8gIEkgc2ltcGx5IGRv bid0IHdhc3RlIHRpbWUgd2hlbiBzb21lb25lIHN0aWNrcyBhDQoJbWluaW11bSBiaWQgYW5kIHRo ZW4gcmVzZXJ2ZSBiZWNhdXNlIEkgc2VlIGl0IGFzIHRoZSBzZWxsZXIgaGlkaW5nDQoJaGlzIG1p bmltdW0gYmlkIGFuZCBJJ20gbm90IGdvaW5nIHRvIHBsYXkgdGhlIGdhbWUuICBQZW9wbGUgYXJl bid0DQoJc28gc3R1cGlkIHRoYXQgdGhleSBjYW4ndCBmaWd1cmUgb3V0IHRoYXQgeW91J3JlIHRy eWluZyB0byBiYWl0DQoJdGhlbSBpbnRvIGJpZGRpbmcgd2l0aCBhIGxvdyBwcmljZSBhbmQgdGhh dCB0aGUgJ3JlYWwnIHByaWNlIGlzDQoJaGlkZGVuIGZyb20gdmlldy4NCgkNCgk+IGFueSB0cm91 YmxlIHdyaXR0aW5nIGEgY2hlY2sgYW5kIHB1dHRpbmcgaXQgaW4gdGhlIG1haWwgdG8gcGF5IG15 DQoJPiBiaWxscyBzbyBkb24ndCBzZWUgd2h5IGFueWJvZHkgZWxzZSB3b3VsZC4gRm9yaWduZXJz IGNhbiB1c2UgdGhlDQoJPiBzZXJ2aWNlIEJpZHBheSBpZiB0aGV5IHdhbnQuDQoJDQoJTm90IHRo aXMgJ2ZvcmlnbmVyJyAoc2ljKS4NCgkNCgktLQ0KCUNoZWVycyAtLS0gTGFycnkgTWFyc2hhbGwN CglRdWViZWMgQ2l0eSwgUUMNCglodHRwOi8vd3d3Lndvb2RuYml0cy5jb20NCgkNCgktLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQoJDQoJLS0N CglDaGVlcnMgLS0tIExhcnJ5IE1hcnNoYWxsDQoJUXVlYmVjIENpdHksIFFDDQoJaHR0cDovL3d3 dy53b29kbmJpdHMuY29tDQoJDQoJQXJjaGl2ZTogaHR0cDovL3d3dy5mcm9udGllci5pYXJjLnVh Zi5lZHUvfmNzd2luZ2xlL2FyY2hpdmUvDQoJVG8gdW5zdWJzY3JpYmUgb3IgY2hhbmdlIG9wdGlv bnMsIHVzZSB0aGUgd2ViIGludGVyZmFjZToNCgkgICAgaHR0cDovL2dhbG9vdHMubGF3LmNvcm5l bGwuZWR1OjgxL3JlYWQvP2ZvcnVtPW9sZHRvb2xzDQoJDQoNCg== ---- Start of Message 130358 (thread 50466) ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-03-09 08:39:14 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs Larry wrote.... > > with items with reserves > on them Todd, you paint a picture of someone not wanting to 'bid > too much' on something with a high minimum. Have you considered > the flip side? I simply don't waste time when someone sticks a > minimum bid and then reserve because I see it as the seller hiding > his minimum bid and I'm not going to play the game. People aren't > so stupid that they can't figure out that you're trying to bait > them into bidding with a low price and that the 'real' price is > hidden from view. > > ------------------------------------------------------- While Larry seems to disagree I don't think the "Real" price for an item at auction is the reserve price, whether if you use that price as an opening bid or as a traditional reserve but instead the "Real" price is what it brings after the auction. This "Real" price is of course not known and is "hidden from view" if you will till the last person bids. Of course sometimes since you don't know what this final "Real" price will be you will be out bid and it would have been a waste of your time.If this bothers you then auctions are probably not for you.While I don't see many people like Larry at live auctions that prefer to bid right away at the high opening bid if it is within the price they are willing to pay instead of waiting to see if it will start lower I guess it may happen some.Will point out that every live auction that I have been to,[and I have been to many!] when they are selling items with a reserve they have NEVER started the item at that reserve like Larry prefers it to be done on the ebay but instead said that it had a reserve and then started lower then it and went higher in an attempt to meet it.I never felt I was being "baited" into bidding like Larry does but instead just thought of the reserve like it was another bidder that if I went higher then I would win the item. While most live auctions will not disclose the reserve unless it has not been met,[ some will announce during bidding "reserve has been met and item will be sold"] On ebay if someone emails me I will tell them what my reserve is though I am always curious as what difference it makes ,probably takes as long to email me asking it then it would to bid so why don't they just bid as high as they are comfortable with and they will get it or not ?........Todd , who is VERY satisfied with his Ebay selling results ---- Start of Message 130359 (thread 50466) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-09 05:43:49 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs On Tuesday, March 9, 2004, at 05:28 AM, Kaye, Danny wrote: > > Me too, if the item is not something I REALLY want I will not bother > if they do not take paypal, I don't even mind a small premium for > using it. > For the purpose of information to sellers, I will join this chorus. I don't want to wait 10 days for my personal check to clear, and I do not want to have to drive to the bank and stand in line to get a cashier's check, or to the post office and stand in an even longer line for a money order. Doing either of these 2 things will cost me a little money and considerable time. I did that for a couple of parts for a classic car that I thought I would never see for sale again, but I won't do it for most items. If the seller won't accept PayPal, then I won't bid. I don't complain to the seller about it either. One more thing while I am at it: I pay by PayPal for items I win within a few hours of the closing of the item. It irritates the devil out of me to wait for 2 or 3 weeks for the item to be delivered, and this does happen. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130361 (thread 50466) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-09 08:57:20 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs > then it and went higher in an attempt to meet it.I never felt I > was being "baited" into bidding like Larry does but instead just > thought of the reserve like it was another bidder that if I went Todd, this is not worthy of argument in my view but here you're putting words in my mouth. I never feel baited either as I simply don't do it. But it was YOUR description/logic that suggests baiting. You suggest that reserve bids are great because you can post a low minimum to "get" people to bid. Now, with a reserve, that means, by definition, that those people are bidding below an acceptable bid on the item. They just don't know it until after they place the bid. I believe I will bow out of this thread. I believe people should do what they want to do when either buying or selling things. I've tried to state what I do and why. I'm done. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130366 (thread 50466) ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-03-09 06:25:55 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs Jim Thompson wrote: > > On Tuesday, March 9, 2004, at 05:28 AM, Kaye, Danny wrote: > >> >> Me too, if the item is not something I REALLY want I will not bother >> if they do not take paypal, I don't even mind a small premium for >> using it. >> > > For the purpose of information to sellers, I will join this chorus. I > don't want to wait 10 days for my personal check to clear, and I do not > want to have to drive to the bank and stand in line to get a cashier's > check, or to the post office and stand in an even longer line for a > money order. Doing either of these 2 things will cost me a little money > and considerable time. As a buyer I use personal checks when available, mainly because the time isn't that important to me. The tool is older than I am (often by a factor of 2!), and I've waited 38 years for it, 10 more days isn't going to hurt. =) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130367 (thread 50466) ---- From: philatelist Date: 2004-03-09 09:41:30 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs It is funny to some degree. Buyers always want the cheapest they can get it for. The seller always wants the most out of it. One tidbit of info. The selling price has nothing to do with handling fees, packing, or shipping. Buyers always forget this and think it should be rolled into the price that they get the item for. And only pay actual shipping charges. Buyers also want to take for granted and think everything should be laid out in the listing. Well, look at it like buying a house. There are always other additional cost that you have to ask about. Buyers should always ask. It's not the sellers responsibility as the seller has no idea what the buyer may want to know. I buy more than I sell so I think I have a little knowledge on this. -----Original Message----- From: todd Hughes Sent: Mar 9, 2004 8:39 AM To: oldtools Subject: Re: [oldtools] Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs Larry wrote.... > > with items with reserves on them Todd, you paint a picture of someone > not wanting to 'bid too much' on something with a high minimum. Have > you considered the flip side? I simply don't waste time when someone > sticks a minimum bid and then reserve because I see it as the seller > hiding his minimum bid and I'm not going to play the game. People > aren't so stupid that they can't figure out that you're trying to bait > them into bidding with a low price and that the 'real' price is hidden > from view. > > ------------------------------------------------------- While Larry seems to disagree I don't think the "Real" price for an item at auction is the reserve price, whether if you use that price as an opening bid or as a traditional reserve but instead the "Real" price is what it brings after the auction. This "Real" price is of course not known and is "hidden from view" if you will till the last person bids. Of course sometimes since you don't know what this final "Real" price will be you will be out bid and it would have been a waste of your time.If this bothers you then auctions are probably not for you.While I don't see many people like Larry at live auctions that prefer to bid right away at the high opening bid if it is within the price they are willing to pay instead of waiting to see if it will start lower I guess it may happen some.Will point out that every live auction that I have been to,[and I have been to many!] when they are selling items with a reserve they have NEVER started the item at that reserve like Larry prefers it to be done on the ebay but instead said that it had a reserve and then started lower then it and went higher in an attempt to meet it.I never felt I was being "baited" into bidding like Larry does but instead just thought of the reserve like it was another bidder that if I went higher then I would win the item. While most live auctions will not disclose the reserve unless it has not been met,[ some will announce during bidding "reserve has been met and item will be sold"] On ebay if someone emails me I will tell them what my reserve is though I am always curious as what difference it makes ,probably takes as long to email me asking it then it would to bid so why don't they just bid as high as they are comfortable with and they will get it or not ?........Todd , who is VERY satisfied with his Ebay selling results ---- Start of Message 130368 (thread 50466) ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-03-09 09:51:11 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs > Jim Thompson wrote: > >. I > > don't want to wait 10 days for my personal check to clear, and I do > not > > want to have to drive to the bank and stand in line to get a > cashier's > > check, or to the post office and stand in an even longer line for a > > > money order. Doing either of these 2 things will cost me a little > money > > and considerable time. > > Michael wrote..." .....As a buyer I use personal checks when available, mainly because the > time isn't that important to me. The tool is older than I am (often > by a factor of 2!), and I've waited 38 years for it, 10 more days > isn't going to hurt. =)..." > __________________________________ Guess I am a trusting S.O.B but I hardly ever wait till a check clears to ship an item out that I sold. A personal check payment gets shipped just as fast,[normally with in 3 days of getting it] as a Money Order payment. Maybe I have been lucky but in many,[and I mean many!] thousands of transactions have never had a bad check. One bounced but was a mistake and the guy made good right away. I actually prefer a person pays with a check because it is easier to deal with if something goes wrong like it gets lost in the mail or the bidder pays me twice.....Todd ---- Start of Message 130372 (thread 50466) ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-03-09 09:05:42 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs Hi Ya'll, OK, Todd and I are in the same camp here... I'm even more reckless. I buy with U.S. greenback dollars 90% of the time. I haven't had a dollar lost in the mail yet or been cheated by a seller. Many sellers have even rounded the amount down to avoid my having to put change in the envelope. When sending $ internationally... I've sent $100 bills in envelopes at a pace of 1/per just to cut the the risk a bit. International sellers like US cash... the International money orders are expensive and are a huge hassle/. I did join the OZ version of PayPal, but I only used it once. As a seller, I look at feedback and if it's good, I deposit the check and send the item.... never been burned that way either. The ONLY time I've ever been burned was a $30 tool I sent to Bozeman MT to a certain C.Z. who kept it and didn't send the $. That was an Old Tools Terms item I sold in the old FMM days when there was a feeding frenzy the first of every month. Tool buyers / sellers are just a helluva good bunch of guys & gals IMHO ..... best gang on the planet. Not only honest, but forthcoming with info and help of all kinds. BTW, I HATE reserves on items.... I've done it myself, but .... nuf said Cheers Tom (in SUNNY Minnesnowta for a change) > Guess I am a trusting S.O.B but I hardly ever wait till a check > clears > to ship an item out that I sold. A personal check payment gets shipped > just > as fast,[normally with in 3 days of getting it] as a Money Order > payment. > Maybe I have been lucky but in many,[and I mean many!] thousands of > transactions have never had a bad check. One bounced but was a mistake > and > the guy made good right away. I actually prefer a person pays with a > check > because it is easier to deal with if something goes wrong like it gets > lost > in the mail or the bidder pays me twice.....Todd > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 130385 (thread 50466) ---- From: "Foster, Jim" Date: 2004-03-09 10:57:28 Subject: RE: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs Well, I gotta jump in here. I buy a few things off of the 'Bay. B^) While PayPal is fine, I don't like to use it simply because I don't like to run up credit card bills. If I'm in a hurry or that's all they take then I'll use it, but otherwise I'm a money order man. I'm a throwback who get's my paycheck sent to the house, and I drive by the bank and deposit it myself. I "skim" off my "allowance" in cash back, and that's what I use for 'Bay Buying. A money order at WalMart is $.99, and a lot of convienience stores sell 'em too for the same amount. Our credit union has an office in my building that's open three days a week, and that's what I usually use, but the other options are available and easy. Yeah, I have to keep some envelopes and stamps around and fill them out, = but I deal with it. And perhaps I'm lucky about what I drive by when going = to work, but I really don't see a big problem with it. It's not uncommon = for me to win an item, get the MO and drop it in the mail, and have the item arrive a week later. Not much different than the turnover from PayPal really. Matter of fact, I bought two similar items about a month ago. Payed for one with PayPal because I needed to have one of these within two weeks and figured I'd just wait on the other and used a MO for it. Of course the MO payed one came quicker. B^) Anyway, that's just=20 my experiences and technique. =20 Jim Foster Minnesota (who really needs to sit down and sell some stuff too ... B^)) >=20 > For the purpose of information to sellers, I will join this=20 > chorus. I=20 > don't want to wait 10 days for my personal check to clear,=20 > and I do not=20 > want to have to drive to the bank and stand in line to get a=20 > cashier's=20 > check, or to the post office and stand in an even longer line for a=20 > money order. Doing either of these 2 things will cost me a=20 > little money=20 > and considerable time. >=20 ---- Start of Message 130386 (thread 50466) ---- From: Matthew and Cathy Groves Date: 2004-03-09 11:04:30 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs Post office has em for a lot less. I'm one block away and not a lazy person, but I would 100 out of 100 times prefer a person who accepted paypal. It comes out of my checking account, and I can pay at 3am and be done with it. Matthew Groves > > A money order at WalMart is $.99 ---- Start of Message 130393 (thread 50466) ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-03-09 15:13:24 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs I try to do neither. Reserves are the death of an auction. (I am having this same discussion with a local auction house). Most auction goers detest reserves and a high minimum bid turns a lot of people away. I have put up items with a high minimum bid and had no bidders at the close. I then relist with a $1.00 starting bid and the item gets more than what I originally wanted. An auction is a "crap shoot". Put up your items and let them go where they will. If you can't do that then sell them. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Marsay" To: "oldtools" Cc: Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:48 PM Subject: [oldtools] Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs > Just a quick query, as a lot of sellers seem to be responding today. > On Ebay, do you find a reserve auction or a minimum starting bid to be the most acceptable to buyers? I still haven't decided either way, though at the moment I lean towards minimum bid, simply to prevent myself getting stuck with the reserve fee if the item doesn't sell. > > Regards, > Mark Marsay, (who is up at 3 am completing a glue up and a polishing for a very impatient client) > > Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. > Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. > > > > >Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shipping Costs > > From: "Brian McInturff" > > Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 21:43:12 -0500 > > To: "oldtools" > > Cc: "oldtools" > > > > > >Larry, > >On overseas items it's best not to draw attention. Besides, delivery > >confirmation only guarantees it to customs at that point anyway. Never had > >problems to Canada anyway. Europe I won't ship to, items have either been > >stolen or undesirable buyers, either way I lost. > >Brian McInturff > >philatelist@e... > > > > > >> [Original Message] > >> From: Larry Marshall > >> To: > >> Date: 3/8/2004 9:29:47 PM > >> Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shipping Costs > >> > >> > >> > Unfortunately there are some people starting to cash in on this. > >> > >> It's sad that honesty has become such a rare trait :-( > >> > >> > Saying they never received the item and getting their funds back > >> > from Paypal. For .35 and .55 it's well worth the insurance. If an > >> > item brings more than I think it typically should then I > >> > >> True, if you're going US to US. But consider this. If you were to > >> ship something to me in Canada, that little confirmation card would > >> cost me far more in all likelyhood. The reason is sort of goofy. > >> Here's how it plays out: > >> > >> 1) mail without card....for most stuff the package would go from > >> your door to my door without being processed through customs. Now, > >> technically, everything should go through customs. In practice, > >> most of the USPS stuff that comes to me doesn't. > >> > >> 2) mail with card....without a doubt the package would go through > >> customs as this seems to be the way in which USPS and Canada Post > >> move the signature back and forth. The result is that I pay 15% > >> taxes on whatever value you put on the box and then I get to pay > >> another $5 for the privilege of the Canadian government charging me > >> those taxes. > >> > >> Certainly not your problem, and I completely understand why people > >> want delivery confirmation. But it is a bit more costly for me > >> than half a buck :-) > >> > >> -- > >> Cheers --- Larry Marshall > >> Quebec City, QC > >> http://www.woodnbits.com > > > > > > > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 130394 (thread 50466) ---- From: Matthew and Cathy Groves Date: 2004-03-09 14:19:41 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs I suppose that $.04 is nothing to you?? I'm just kidding of course. I thought they were in the $.50 range, my mistake. My main point is that even if they were two bits (one quarter, I think), it wouldn't compare to the ease and zero cost (not counting internet access, computer, yada yada) convenience of my own home. Sorry about the misinformation. The USPS website now has them at .90 for money orders $500 and less, and $1.25 for over $500. Matthew Groves > > I must be going to the wrong post office. I pay $.95. > They went up from $.85 at least a year ago. > > Jim Bramel ++++ End of thread 50466 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50467 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130343 (thread 50467) ---- From: "Stephen Colebourne" Date: 2004-03-09 13:39:57 Subject: Re: paypal; was Shipping Costs As an overseas buyer I would have to agree with Larry. Paypal for me was a godsend and I will always give preference to sellers who use this service, surely the convenience has got to be worth the 3%. Prior to paypals arrival on the scene paying for items could be a real hassle for me (go to bank/post-office ,obtain money order/cheque,pay ridiculous bank/postoffice charges and receive the worst exchange rate) and cause serious delays in getting the money for the seller (up to 3 weeks for the money-order/cheque to arrive at destination).Paypals charge of 3% seems a pittance to me given the alternatives -Auction commissions 10-20%(and you pay to get the item to the auction) or shop overheads. Bottom line for me is that when I see an item I am interested in I work out how much the item is worth to me then work out the anticipated cost of getting the item to me -then subtract the latter from the former to arrive at the amount I am willing to bid ,therefore by cutting my expenses paypal allows me to bid a higher price therefore potentially increasing the final price the seller receives regards Steve (sweating it out in 40c degree Queensland) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Marshall" To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 12:38 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shipping Costs > > > My second beef as a cost of doing business is PayPal. That > > I rarely do business online that isn't PayPal and it's worth it to > me for buyers to use it as the money comes to me right away and I > can close out the transaction immediately rather than having stuff > sitting around with the expectation that a check will come...some > day. > > > (classic bait and switch) and now the seller is tagged with about > > a 3% fee on all transactions. The seller is further barred from > > passing that charge onto the buyer. > > Just as with a credit card. > > > So no PayPal logos on my site or auctions. I accept it as a > > curtesy to customers, but I'd much rather be paid by check or > > I will rarely even look at items that dont sport a PayPal logo > anymore. The check/money_order thing is just too time consuming > (whether I'm the seller or the buyer) and it's too expensive for me > as a buyer. > > > money order. It's just another nick in the "cost of doing > > business" that has the effect of increasing the cost of old > > tools. > > The reason for a minimum bid is to set a price you will accept. If > that doesn't cover your costs, you shouldn't be selling the item. > > -- > Cheers --- Larry Marshall > Quebec City, QC > http://www.woodnbits.com > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130362 (thread 50467) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-09 13:53:32 Subject: Re: paypal; was Shipping Costs I prefer to use Paypal to pay for items on ebay. But my bank will issue one "Official Check" (same as a cashier's check) per day for free, and I can walk to my bank from my office on a break and get one in a matter of minutes, so it is relatively easy and free for me to pay that way. As such, I will often search out sellers who have an item I want who do not accept Paypal because a lot of folks will not bid on items from sellers who don't accept Paypal and I often get the item cheaper. ++++ End of thread 50467 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50468 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130360 (thread 50468) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-09 13:26:36 Subject: Shipping Costs Revisited I buy a lot of old tools on ebay, and have been pretty satisfied with both the items I've gotten and the cost of shipping. I also prefer paypal to pay because it is so convenient to me. My paypal account is hooked up to my bank accounts and it keeps me from running up my credit cards any more than they already are. I have generally found shipping charges to be pretty reasonable, especially when I consider the cost of the materials used. I have shipped a few wood items that I have made and I just go to the mailing center and have them pack it in their materials and pass this cost along to the buyer. Some of these are fragile and have to be double boxed. So I know what shipping costs. The one bit of negative feedback I have gotten on e-bay as a buyer was from a fella in Oklahoma City who had a Dutch Auction running for some lathes. I'm in Central Texas, so OK City is not far, and I have a son stationed at the AF Base there (he's in the navy stationed at a landlocked Air Force base, but that's another story) and I could have had it shipped to him or he could have picked it up. The e-bay ad stated that the item was located in OK City. It also said to contact the seller about shipping charges, but the auction had only one day to run and it took about two days after it ended for the seller to even acknowledge my initial e-mail concerning total costs. Long story short, he was dropping shipping from the west coast and the cost of shipping was more than the item cost. He insisted that since he had a disclaimer to contact him for shipping costs, that his stating the item was in OK City didn't make any difference. I've heard of sellers listing items from Griz zly or Harbor Freight or other companies that offer cheap or free shipping, then calculating the freight charges from the origin to the buyer and billing the buyer for that. Of course they set a minimum or reserve of the actual price on the item so they at least break even on that. I argued that he should have had a FOB listed in the ad and refused to pay. ++++ End of thread 50468 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50469 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130365 (thread 50469) ---- From: pjm21@d... Date: 2004-03-09 09:24:50 Subject: PATINA Road Trip Good Galoots, A friend of mine and I plan to make it to PATINA this weekend. He's a recent convert to old tools and we're both looking to fatten up the shop inventory. Neither of us have been to this event before. Can someone post about the particulars regarding, admission charge, open or closed event, and if there is selling allowed outside in the parking lot? Where will the galoots be? We're planning to drive all Friday night and hope to lodge in a nearby motel. Any recommendations this late? Best Regards, Pete Mueller GPP, Michigan ---- Start of Message 130369 (thread 50469) ---- From: kjworz@c... Date: 2004-03-09 14:51:39 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip What do ya wanna know? http://www.patinatools.org is the website. The auction specifically is: http://www.patinatools.org/auction.html There are hotel recommendations on the site. But if you drive all night from Michigan you will arrive just as the tailgating starts... 4-5 AM ish. If you want to sell out of your tailgate just be sure to park across the road from the building. Might be 20+ people selling out there. There are directions and hotel info here: http://www.patinatools.org/Patina-dir.htm The doors open to the public at 9 AM for free, but there is an early bird admission at 8 that'll cost you $15. -- -Chris Schwartz, Ex-Brewer Stealth #97 Silver Spring, MD > > > > > Good Galoots, > > A friend of mine and I plan to make it to PATINA this weekend. He's a > recent convert to old tools and we're both looking to fatten up the > shop inventory. > > Neither of us have been to this event before. Can someone post about > the particulars regarding, admission charge, open or closed event, and > if there is selling allowed outside in the parking lot? Where will the > galoots be? > > We're planning to drive all Friday night and hope to lodge in a nearby > motel. Any recommendations this late? > > Best Regards, > > Pete Mueller GPP, Michigan > > > ---- Start of Message 130373 (thread 50469) ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-03-09 10:09:44 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip Pete asked > "....I plan to make it to PATINA this weekend. ... Neither of us have been to this event before. Can someone post about the > particulars regarding, admission charge, open or closed event, and if there > is selling allowed outside in the parking lot? Where will the galoots be? > > We're planning to drive all Friday night and hope to lodge in a nearby > motel. Any recommendations this late? > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are normally lots of "Tailgaters" set up in the parking lot and this is where the better good deals can be found in my experience. No cost involved with shopping or selling here.Key thing here is to get there EARLY. This year I am planning to try to make it before sun up...well I am going to try and you should too. Believe the show ,[in the building] opens at around 9:00 and cost like $5 to get in.Personally I like to pay the extra early bird fee of $15 or $20 to get in about an hour earlier to avoid the big crush and to have a better chance of finding any good deals.Has paid off for me in the past.Believe this year they are having the auction in the afternoon instead of on Sunday like in years past. A good ideal I think as I have never came back the second day for the auction.....I will be the guy wearing the Blue WW II Ladies Auxiliary Beret with a Star on top, kind of hard to miss, hope you come up and say "Hello"........Todd ---- Start of Message 130374 (thread 50469) ---- From: kjworz@c... Date: 2004-03-09 15:17:08 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip $15 to get in early at 8 (unless they changed it this year and didn't tell me, the webmaster.) FREE at 9. -- -Chris Schwartz, Ex-Brewer Stealth #97 Silver Spring, MD Believe the show ,[in the building] opens at around > 9:00 and cost like $5 to get in.Personally I like to pay the extra early > bird fee of $15 or $20 to get in about an hour earlier to avoid the big > crush and to have a better chance of finding any good deals.Has paid off > for me in the past.Believe this year they are having the auction in the > afternoon instead of on Sunday like in years past. ---- Start of Message 130378 (thread 50469) ---- From: "S. Micah Salb" Date: 2004-03-09 10:50:49 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip Actually, the PATINA sale pretty much sucks. They never really have any decent tools, and anything that is there is WAY overpriced. I remember last year, this gouging dealer showing me a Stanley #4 told me it was a rare tool worth $1,200. Sadly, there is nothing there of value to collectors OR users; it really isn't worth coming to. The tables are mostly empty and the tools in rough shape. The auction isn't much better --- just a bunch of tools that no one wants. And, to make matters worse, the weather INEVITABLY sucks at this time of year in Damascus. Wasn't it last year or the year before that the whole parking lot was basically flooded out? I STRONGLY advise you --- and everyone else --- to just stay home. -Micah Salb ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 9:24 AM Subject: [oldtools] PATINA Road Trip > > > > > Good Galoots, > > A friend of mine and I plan to make it to PATINA this weekend. He's a > recent convert to old tools and we're both looking to fatten up the shop > inventory. > > Neither of us have been to this event before. Can someone post about the > particulars regarding, admission charge, open or closed event, and if there > is selling allowed outside in the parking lot? Where will the galoots be? > > We're planning to drive all Friday night and hope to lodge in a nearby > motel. Any recommendations this late? > > Best Regards, > > Pete Mueller > GPP, Michigan > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130379 (thread 50469) ---- From: ralong Date: 2004-03-09 11:11:03 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip Hey MICAH, You have your right to say "IT sucks". One misinformed dealer and some wet weather may have put a damper on your trip to PATINA. But for those who put the time to organize the show, dealers to bring TONS of tools and those, like myself, that tailgate at 5:00am...THE SHOW IS GREAT. I clean up tailgating, go inside and by some TOP SHELF tools, drive home to Virginia with a big smile on my face, cash in wallet and tools in the trunk. Eight years of doing that....I would never dream of NOT going. Suck on that!!! Rick Long President of RATS (Richmond Antique Tool Society) 135 members, 9 years old, and growing!!! RATS forever! "S. Micah Salb" wrote: > Actually, the PATINA sale pretty much sucks. They never really have any > decent tools, and anything that is there is WAY overpriced. I remember last > year, this gouging dealer showing me a Stanley #4 told me it was a rare tool > worth $1,200. Sadly, there is nothing there of value to collectors OR > users; it really isn't worth coming to. The tables are mostly empty and the > tools in rough shape. The auction isn't much better --- just a bunch of > tools that no one wants. And, to make matters worse, the weather INEVITABLY > sucks at this time of year in Damascus. Wasn't it last year or the year > before that the whole parking lot was basically flooded out? > > I STRONGLY advise you --- and everyone else --- to just stay home. > > -Micah Salb > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "oldtools" > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 9:24 AM > Subject: [oldtools] PATINA Road Trip > > > > > > > > > > > Good Galoots, > > > > A friend of mine and I plan to make it to PATINA this weekend. He's a > > recent convert to old tools and we're both looking to fatten up the shop > > inventory. > > > > Neither of us have been to this event before. Can someone post about the > > particulars regarding, admission charge, open or closed event, and if > there > > is selling allowed outside in the parking lot? Where will the galoots be? > > > > We're planning to drive all Friday night and hope to lodge in a nearby > > motel. Any recommendations this late? > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Pete Mueller > > GPP, Michigan > > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130380 (thread 50469) ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-03-09 16:22:54 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip Now you've spoilt Shannon's attempt to buy *all * the tools at knock down prices >Hey MICAH, >You have your right to say "IT sucks". One misinformed dealer and some wet >weather may have put a damper on your trip to PATINA. >But for those who put the time to organize the show, dealers to bring TONS of >tools and those, like myself, that tailgate at 5:00am...THE SHOW IS GREAT. >I clean up tailgating, go inside and by some TOP SHELF tools, drive home to notice his final grin.. .. >>> I STRONGLY advise you --- and everyone else --- to just stay home. >>> >>> -Micah Salb >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 130383 (thread 50469) ---- From: ralong Date: 2004-03-09 11:39:42 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip Micah ... I did miss the . I didn't even know meant GRIN. The banter, back in forth, in jest, but I really thought someone was ripping a good tool event. If I blow any tool deals for you, just stop by and see me, introduce yourself, and I'll INCREASE my prices. JUST JOKING....REALLY Spittoon Shining in Virginia Rick Long Richard.Wilson@s... wrote: > Now you've spoilt Shannon's attempt to buy *all * the tools at knock > down prices > > >Hey MICAH, You have your right to say "IT sucks". One misinformed > >dealer and some > wet > >weather may have put a damper on your trip to PATINA. But for those > >who put the time to organize the show, dealers to bring > TONS of > >tools and those, like myself, that tailgate at 5:00am...THE SHOW IS > GREAT. > >I clean up tailgating, go inside and by some TOP SHELF tools, > >drive home > to > > notice his final > > grin.. .. > > >>> I STRONGLY advise you --- and everyone else --- to just stay home. > >>> > >>> -Micah Salb > >>> > >>> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------- > > For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at > www.salvesen.com. > > The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential > and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally > privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any > disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than > the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have > received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately > by return e-mail. > > Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure > that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. > However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a > result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your > own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 130398 (thread 50469) ---- From: "S. Micah Salb" Date: 2004-03-09 15:28:21 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip Ack! I REALLY was teasing! I have to confess (only because I don't want anyone to be upset with me) that I was just teasing, jokingly trying to convince everyone else to stay home. I'm sorry if I insulted! -Micah ----- Original Message ----- From: "ralong" To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [oldtools] PATINA Road Trip > Hey MICAH, > You have your right to say "IT sucks". One misinformed dealer and some wet > weather may have put a damper on your trip to PATINA. > But for those who put the time to organize the show, dealers to bring TONS of > tools and those, like myself, that tailgate at 5:00am...THE SHOW IS GREAT. > I clean up tailgating, go inside and by some TOP SHELF tools, drive home to > Virginia with a big smile on my face, cash in wallet and tools in the trunk. > Eight years of doing that....I would never dream of NOT going. Suck on that!!! > > Rick Long > President of RATS (Richmond Antique Tool Society) 135 members, 9 years old, and > growing!!! RATS forever! > > > "S. Micah Salb" wrote: > > > Actually, the PATINA sale pretty much sucks. They never really have any > > decent tools, and anything that is there is WAY overpriced. I remember last > > year, this gouging dealer showing me a Stanley #4 told me it was a rare tool > > worth $1,200. Sadly, there is nothing there of value to collectors OR > > users; it really isn't worth coming to. The tables are mostly empty and the > > tools in rough shape. The auction isn't much better --- just a bunch of > > tools that no one wants. And, to make matters worse, the weather INEVITABLY > > sucks at this time of year in Damascus. Wasn't it last year or the year > > before that the whole parking lot was basically flooded out? > > > > I STRONGLY advise you --- and everyone else --- to just stay home. > > > > -Micah Salb > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: "oldtools" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 9:24 AM > > Subject: [oldtools] PATINA Road Trip > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good Galoots, > > > > > > A friend of mine and I plan to make it to PATINA this weekend. He's a > > > recent convert to old tools and we're both looking to fatten up the shop > > > inventory. > > > > > > Neither of us have been to this event before. Can someone post about the > > > particulars regarding, admission charge, open or closed event, and if > > there > > > is selling allowed outside in the parking lot? Where will the galoots be? > > > > > > We're planning to drive all Friday night and hope to lodge in a nearby > > > motel. Any recommendations this late? > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > Pete Mueller > > > GPP, Michigan > > > > > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > > > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > > > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130399 (thread 50469) ---- From: "Jim Esten" Date: 2004-03-09 14:39:23 Subject: RE: PATINA Road Trip May have escaped a few readers, but c'mon, the at the tail of Micah's original very funny note was there in plain view...!! Cheers, Jim E #2 in Wisconsin (who normally snips off the bulk of quoted material but some folks really need to relook this thread!) -----Original Message----- From: S. Micah Salb [mailto:ssalb@l...] Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 2:28 PM To: oldtools Subject: Re: [oldtools] PATINA Road Trip Ack! I REALLY was teasing! I have to confess (only because I don't want anyone to be upset with me) that I was just teasing, jokingly trying to convince everyone else to stay home. I'm sorry if I insulted! -Micah ----- Original Message ----- From: "ralong" To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [oldtools] PATINA Road Trip > Hey MICAH, > You have your right to say "IT sucks". One misinformed dealer and some wet > weather may have put a damper on your trip to PATINA. > But for those who put the time to organize the show, dealers to bring TONS of > tools and those, like myself, that tailgate at 5:00am...THE SHOW IS GREAT. > I clean up tailgating, go inside and by some TOP SHELF tools, drive home to > Virginia with a big smile on my face, cash in wallet and tools in the trunk. > Eight years of doing that....I would never dream of NOT going. Suck on that!!! > > Rick Long > President of RATS (Richmond Antique Tool Society) 135 members, 9 years old, and > growing!!! RATS forever! > > > "S. Micah Salb" wrote: > > > Actually, the PATINA sale pretty much sucks. They never really have any > > decent tools, and anything that is there is WAY overpriced. I remember last > > year, this gouging dealer showing me a Stanley #4 told me it was a rare tool > > worth $1,200. Sadly, there is nothing there of value to collectors OR > > users; it really isn't worth coming to. The tables are mostly empty and the > > tools in rough shape. The auction isn't much better --- just a bunch of > > tools that no one wants. And, to make matters worse, the weather INEVITABLY > > sucks at this time of year in Damascus. Wasn't it last year or the year > > before that the whole parking lot was basically flooded out? > > > > I STRONGLY advise you --- and everyone else --- to just stay home. > > > > -Micah Salb > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: "oldtools" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 9:24 AM > > Subject: [oldtools] PATINA Road Trip > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good Galoots, > > > > > > A friend of mine and I plan to make it to PATINA this weekend. He's a > > > recent convert to old tools and we're both looking to fatten up the shop > > > inventory. > > > > > > Neither of us have been to this event before. Can someone post about the > > > particulars regarding, admission charge, open or closed event, and if > > there > > > is selling allowed outside in the parking lot? Where will the galoots be? > > > > > > We're planning to drive all Friday night and hope to lodge in a nearby > > > motel. Any recommendations this late? > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > Pete Mueller > > > GPP, Michigan > > > > > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > > > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > > > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130400 (thread 50469) ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 2004-03-09 16:00:12 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip At 03:28 PM 3/9/04, S. Micah Salb wrote: >Ack! > >I REALLY was teasing! That's good to hear cause I was a fixin' to be charging ya double...maybe even admission just to look at my stuff!! Tony (whose bringing a really strange mix this time...) Olde River Hard Goods 350 West Catawissa Street Nesquehoning PA 18240 570-669-9421 The best old tool store in Pennsylvania! http://www.oldetoolshop.com ---- Start of Message 130402 (thread 50469) ---- From: "S. Micah Salb" Date: 2004-03-09 16:16:16 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip Don't you always charge me double anyway???? That's -SMS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Seo" To: "S. Micah Salb" ; "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 4:00 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] PATINA Road Trip > At 03:28 PM 3/9/04, S. Micah Salb wrote: > >Ack! > > > >I REALLY was teasing! > > That's good to hear cause I was a fixin' to be charging ya double...maybe > even admission just to look at my stuff!! > > Tony (whose bringing a really strange mix this time...) > > > Olde River Hard Goods > 350 West Catawissa Street > Nesquehoning PA 18240 > 570-669-9421 > The best old tool store in Pennsylvania! > http://www.oldetoolshop.com > ---- Start of Message 130405 (thread 50469) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-09 13:54:39 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip >>Tony (whose bringing a really strange mix this time...) >> And..................... will it be a wheelbarrow or did we brake down and break out the drop light n wrenches and swap out that tranny? 8^) yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130409 (thread 50469) ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 2004-03-09 17:31:14 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip At 04:54 PM 3/9/04, scott grandstaff wrote: >>>Tony (whose bringing a really strange mix this time...) > And..................... will it be a wheelbarrow or did we brake down > and break out the drop light n wrenches and swap out that tranny? 8^) Nope but some buddy else did...to the tune of $2200.... Let's see if I sell Shannon 22 chisels at $100 each............. Tony Olde River Hard Goods 350 West Catawissa Street Nesquehoning PA 18240 570-669-9421 The best old tool store in Pennsylvania! http://www.oldetoolshop.com ---- Start of Message 130414 (thread 50469) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-09 18:25:26 Subject: RE: PATINA Road Trip This thread had me checking the calender (and choking on coffee) to see what the date is. Are we starting early this year???? Regards Jonathan >May have escaped a few readers, but c'mon, the at the tail of >Micah's >original very funny note was there in plain view...!! > >Cheers, > >Jim E #2 in Wisconsin ( ---- Start of Message 130457 (thread 50469) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-10 10:34:29 Subject: RE: PATINA Road Trip Hi Jonathan & All, Jonathan thinks PATINA seems early this year. Not so - it's traditionally been held on the first double-digit Saturday of March. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130471 (thread 50469) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-10 15:55:51 Subject: RE: PATINA Road Trip Hi, I don't want to let the cat out of the bag...just yet, so I'll just say....not refering to PATINA starting early this year. "The game is afoot" jonathan > >Hi Jonathan & All, > >Jonathan thinks PATINA seems early this year. Not so - it's >traditionally been held on the first double-digit Saturday of March. > >Best Wishes, >Bob > ++++ End of thread 50469 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50470 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130370 (thread 50470) ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-03-09 09:04:06 Subject: eBay, shipping, PayPal - Enough already! OK folks-- before Steve and I get inundated with complaints, I'd like to rein this one in. This discussion is careening at warp speed towards the off-topic abyss. eBay has lots of very nice forums for discussing these things, and that's where these discussions belong. -- Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL "He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; he who dares not is a slave" - Wm. Drummond ++++ End of thread 50470 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50471 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130371 (thread 50471) ---- From: "Bruce Dissel" Date: 2004-03-09 14:52:23 Subject: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) To all, Greetings from the desert SW.Been lurking a good while and thought I'd post a quck bio. Names Bruce Dissel and I live in the canyon country of SE Utah.I fight forest fires for a living summers and this gives me a lot of shop/tool hounding time otherwise.Enjoy making hardwood furniture and accesories.Main influence style-wise and plane-wise is Mr. Krenov.Made a plane kit from Ron Hock and starting to make more from scratch.Current old tool interest is small levels, which brings me to a question related to "Shiney does Pay"; Scored a Stratton Bros 10" # 10 for $60 recently.The brass is pretty well tarnished,has the ubiquitous bit of paint splatter but in really nice shape otherwise.I don't like my antiques to look new,either furniture or tools.Is there a way to clean up the brass a little bit without the scrubbed look?Also I know alcohol is a solvent for dried latex paint but worry about impacting the finish. Any suggestions welcome and sure enjoy the discussion group. Bruce ---- Start of Message 130433 (thread 50471) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-10 00:13:50 Subject: RE: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Hello Bruce You might try "Brasso" which is a brass polish with very very fine polishing grade grit. You should be able to easily control how aggressive it is because it is not at all very aggressive without considerable elbow grease. But its grit is finer and shouldn't show the scrubbed look you're worried about. BTW, I once polished a rosewood and brass handled pocketknife on a buffing wheel and it looked so bright and awkward afterward that I have never done it again since. The other product that springs to mind is "Bar Keeper's Friend" which comes in a gold looking container. It's a little bit like comet cleanser only milder (but I would say more abrasive than the brasso). I know its safe for small brass bar sinks. Rubbing compound used on car paint finishes might be another option. I would suspect most of it might even be milder than the brasso but it'd be thicker instead. You might even have some around your place now. You'd be surprised how many car waxes these days actually contain rubbing compound within their formula. Taking off a microscopic layer of paint helps brighten the finish. But I'd do some tests on some old brass first before taking it to the plane. I think horn players use brasso, too, IIRC. A lot of them don't like their horns too bright. Bruce said: I don't like my antiques to look new,either furniture or tools.Is there a way to clean up the brass a little bit without the scrubbed look? ---- Start of Message 130456 (thread 50471) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-10 10:31:51 Subject: RE: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Hi John & All, As a former professional car polisher/waxer, I must file a correction to John's advice about using auto rubbing compound as a mildly abrasive cleaner. What John meant was auto "polishing" compound. Rubbing compound is a rusty red color stuff that's quite gritty and abrasive - in the 220 sandpaper range. Polishing compound is white, is quite mild, and is indeed mixed in with almost all currrent day waxes. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130461 (thread 50471) ---- From: PAUL MORIN Date: 2004-03-10 09:04:58 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) One antiques website I was on suggested using the RED rubbing compound Turtle Wax sells. They say to use an old soft cotton cloth (or a something like a sock), apply a small amount, and work it in until it looks 'burnished'. Then you use it to carefully work your item. It is supposed to remove only the dirt, without strippin the patina off, and is recommended over 0000 Steel wool & wax/spirits. Haven't tried it myself, but I did pick a tin up - it's only a couple bucks and should last forever. for what it's worth. paul morin calgary, ab www.cranialstorage.com/wood > You might try "Brasso" which is a brass polish with very very fine > polishing grade grit. The other product that springs to mind is "Bar > Keeper's Friend" which comes in a gold looking container. It's a > little bit like comet cleanser onlymilder ---- Start of Message 130462 (thread 50471) ---- From: PAUL MORIN Date: 2004-03-10 09:19:28 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Hmmmm.... just read the message someone else left about using the white (polishing), rather than the red (rubbing - about 220 grit). Think perhaps I will be exchanging my purchase then. Just wanted to repoint that out since it occured a bit before my post of possible mis-information. paul morin calgary, ab > One antiques website I was on suggested using the RED rubbing compound > Turtle Wax sells. They say to use an old soft cotton cloth (or a > something like a sock), apply a small amount, and work it in until it > looks 'burnished'. Then you use it to carefully work your item. > > It is supposed to remove only the dirt, without strippin the patina > off, and is recommended over 0000 Steel wool & wax/spirits. > ---- Start of Message 130470 (thread 50471) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-10 14:24:52 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) It seems that the theme is "don't do as I do, do as I say. Tips on cleaning http://www.cranialstorage.com/wood/html/cleaning_your_plane.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "PAUL MORIN" To: "oldtools" Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 8:19 AM Subject: Re: RE: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay) > Hmmmm.... just read the message someone else left about using the white (polishing), rather than the red (rubbing - about 220 grit). > > Think perhaps I will be exchanging my purchase then. > > Just wanted to repoint that out since it occured a bit before my post of possible mis-information. > > > paul morin > calgary, ab > > > One antiques website I was on suggested using the RED rubbing > > compound Turtle Wax sells. They say to use an old soft cotton > > cloth (or a something like a sock), apply a small amount, and work > > it in until it looks 'burnished'. Then you use it to carefully > > work your item. > > > > It is supposed to remove only the dirt, without strippin the > > patina off, and is recommended over 0000 Steel wool & wax/spirits. > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130492 (thread 50471) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-11 01:22:48 Subject: RE: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Sorry about that, thanks for the correction, Bob. Goes to show what happens to knowledge when I don't have occasion to personally use it very often. > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Cc: > Date: 3/10/2004 9:31:55 AM > Subject: RE: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay) > > Hi John & All, > > As a former professional car polisher/waxer, I must file a correction to > John's advice about using auto rubbing compound as a mildly abrasive > cleaner. What John meant was auto "polishing" compound. Rubbing compound > is a rusty red color stuff that's quite gritty and abrasive - in the 220 > sandpaper range. Polishing compound is white, is quite mild, and is > indeed mixed in with almost all currrent day waxes. > > Best Wishes, > Bob ---- Start of Message 130521 (thread 50471) ---- From: Paul Morin Date: 2004-03-11 13:29:19 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Hmmmm... not sure if that's a slam (not taking it as one unless I'm distinctly informed otherwise). I'm the first to admit I don't know everything, heck - I'll admit I don't know nuthin' about most things. Most of the info I've cobbled together on my site (and I state it fairly clearly) has come directly from spending a lot of time going through the archives of the old tool group. Most of the info has the archive number listed with it. I only recently ran across the suggestion to skip steel wool, and use red rubbing compound (and they distinctly state to use the red, and not the white). I'm much more inclined to take the advice of someone from this group that says to use the white, not the red. Practical advice outdoes the best 'theory' almost everytime. I don't believe everything I read. And I never use anything I haven't tried before without testing on scrap, or something I don't care about. Wonders in the end if I completely missed your point. At least I know someone has visited the site though ;) paul morin calgary, ab www.cranialstorage.com/wood ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:24 pm Subject: Re: RE: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay) > > It seems that the theme is "don't do as I do, do as I say. Tips on > cleaning > http://www.cranialstorage.com/wood/html/cleaning_your_plane.html > > > ---- Start of Message 130524 (thread 50471) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-11 16:07:50 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Paul: The information you provide on your web site is sensible, constructive and above all, practical. My comments were tongue and cheek. I did not make my point clear. There are many Galoots that always caution the rest of us to use nothing but shellac. And God forbid we would use any glue other than hide glue. Cleaning a tool? Never. After all, if we remove the sweat and grime that it's original owner put there we would lose the value of the tool. Of course that also assumes that the orginal owner never wiped down his tools or ever made an attempt to clean them. After all, it would spoil the patina. Like he had any concern about patina. Me thinks some Galoots take this a bit too far. We all clean our tools and even polish them. I have some old tools that belonged to my Dad and Granddad. The first thing I did was remove the old sweat. I didn't think they would mind. MJD has done pretty well it seems and we never see dirty, grimy, sweat laden tools for sale on his site. Are we so naive to think that all tools must remain in the "just found" condition? We live in a real 21st Century time and just happen to like old tools. We are not reinactors trying to live in the past. Well, most of us are not. We all have seen the nice clean tools of the same Galoots that preach to the rest of us that we should not ruin our tools by cleaning. If we clean our user tools to whatever extent and it pleases us. . . great. But, if we clean the tools to hornswaggle a potential buyer. That's another matter. I once bought a No. 6 on eBay that was as shiny as can be. When it hit my front door it reeked of WD40 and the wife didn't want it in the house until I gave it a good bath in soap and water. The packing material had to be discarded immediately it smelled so bad. I was hornswaggled by "shiny". The helpful information on your web site is right on. Keep up the good work. I have saved your site in my Favorites and refer to it often. Another helful hint. For cleaning Brass, try Mothers Mag cream that can be found at most Auto Parts stores. Be careful with it. . . it will remove the tarnish. (grin) Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Morin" To: "Richard J. Hucker" Cc: "oldtools" Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 12:29 PM Subject: Re: RE: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay) > Hmmmm... not sure if that's a slam (not taking it as one unless I'm distinctly informed otherwise). I'm the first to admit I don't know everything, heck - I'll admit I don't know nuthin' about most things. > > Most of the info I've cobbled together on my site (and I state it fairly clearly) has come directly from spending a lot of time going through the archives of the old tool group. Most of the info has the archive number listed with it. > > I only recently ran across the suggestion to skip steel wool, and use red rubbing compound (and they distinctly state to use the red, and not the white). > > I'm much more inclined to take the advice of someone from this group that says to use the white, not the red. Practical advice outdoes the best 'theory' almost everytime. > > I don't believe everything I read. And I never use anything I haven't tried before without testing on scrap, or something I don't care about. > > Wonders in the end if I completely missed your point. At least I know someone has visited the site though ;) > > paul morin > calgary, ab > www.cranialstorage.com/wood > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard J. Hucker" > Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:24 pm > Subject: Re: RE: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay) > > > > > It seems that the theme is "don't do as I do, do as I say. > > Tips on cleaning > > http://www.cranialstorage.com/wood/html/cleaning_your_plane.html > > > > > > ---- Start of Message 130527 (thread 50471) ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-03-11 17:42:17 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Paul and Fellow Tool Aficionados, I have used both the red and the white rubbing compounds. The red is coarser than the white. I find each can be a valuable tool when used with the appropriate care, in the right circumstance. I always take care to remove any abrasive residue after use. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, Massachusetts > I only recently ran across the suggestion to skip steel wool, and use red rubbing compound (and they distinctly state to use the red, >and not the white). > > I'm much more inclined to take the advice of someone from this group that says to use the white, not the red. Practical advice >outdoes the best 'theory' almost everytime. > > > paul morin > calgary, ab ---- Start of Message 130528 (thread 50471) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-11 18:04:20 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Hi Paul & All, Re this red rubbing vs. white polishing compound thing. Do we maybe have a contextual mixup? My comments about using the white were made in the context of Paul having suggested rubbing compound might be milder and less abrasive than Brasso. That's definitely not true of any standard red rubbing compound I'm familiar with; it is true of the white polishing compound. I commented accordingly. There are some types of old tool cleanup jobs where the gritty red compound might work quite well and I'm certainly not saying not to use it for such - just don't start out thinking you're using something milder than Brasso. I also wonder if there might be some breed of red compound using jewelers rouge as a base which would indeed be milder than Brasso? Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130541 (thread 50471) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-11 22:10:26 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Richard writes : > There are many Galoots that always caution the rest of us to > use nothing but shellac. And God forbid we would use any glue > other than hide glue. Cleaning a tool? Never. After all, if we > remove the sweat and grime that it's original owner put there > we would lose the value of the tool. Of course that also assumes > that the orginal owner never wiped down his tools or ever made > an attempt to clean them. After all, it would spoil the patina. > Like he had any concern about patina. Me thinks some Galoots > take this a bit too far. There seems to be a strange undercurrent in oldtools that warps what people say, or how some hear it. I don't believe I've ever heard anybody say "use nothing but shellac", or "don't clean tools", or for that matter "hollow grind or get off the list". One of the list's goals is to focus on traditional ways of doing things. And doing them in a traditional environment. That using a tradition approach might get one closer to that goal is only inherent. Two hundred years ago you could not walk into a shop and see shiny tools producing polyurethaned objects. And they're just as out of place in the environment of this list. That's not to say any of this is good or bad, only that there are different places to go to enjoy different environments. I'm sure there are many groups on the internet in which the mention of wire-wheeling a tool wouldn't raise any eyebrows. Oldtools isn't one of them. There are other groups in which polyurethane is seen as a good thing. Again, oldtools isn't one of them. I think it would be easier if there was some way for someone new to oldtools to 'look around' to get some idea of what kind of place this is. Reading the archives may be a way, but certainly not everyone is prepared to do that. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that what this list was created to address is all that visible anymore, day-to-day, so it's a bit hard for a new person to get an idea of the place. Perhaps one way to understand the reason for oldtools' existence is to study the history of woodworking, from books or by stuying real items like furniture or woodwork. In my mind the feeling one gets when admiring a fine piece of old furniture is the feeling one should get when one spends a few minutes in oldtools. When one looks around the oldtools list, one should see old tools, either being used in their original function to produce fine items of woodwork, or just there to be admired for their own sake. One should also see a whole bunch of very friendly people, living a part of their lives together in this environment. As one of the older members of this list put it, it's all a game. And we're all having fun playing the game together. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130546 (thread 50471) ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-03-12 09:11:50 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Richard J. Hucker wrote: (with reference to NOT cleaning up tools) > We are not reinactors trying to live in the past. Well, most of us are not. Actually, a reenactor would want their tool to look clean and new. A period tool, when used "in period" is a new tool :-) BugBear ---- Start of Message 130549 (thread 50471) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-12 04:24:03 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Perhaps so BugBear. But that doesn't always hold true. Those that reenact the Civil War in the U.S. show up with some pretty clean and well pressed period clothing. And their weapons are clean. They wouldn't dare fire a black powder weapon that is encrusted with powder residue. I have some black powder handguns, rifles, and a field cannon that are well cared for . . . no patina is wanted. Huck ----- Original Message ----- From: "bugbear" To: "oldtools" Cc: "oldtools" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 1:11 AM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay) > Richard J. Hucker wrote: (with reference to NOT cleaning up tools) > > We are not reinactors trying to live in the past. Well, most of us are not. > > Actually, a reenactor would want their tool to look clean and new. > A period tool, when used "in period" is a new tool :-) > > BugBear > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130550 (thread 50471) ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-03-12 06:19:40 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) >> Actually, a reenactor would want their tool to look clean and new. >> A period tool, when used "in period" is a new tool :-) >> Would a cabinetmaker not possibly have his grandfather's tools, and therefore be using a 1780's tool in a an 1820's re-enactment? Ed Minch I have a type 2 #3 (smallish smoother, Jeff) that has a used up sweetheart blade in it. This means that the tools was 50 years old when it got it last blade, and then that was used up! ---- Start of Message 130560 (thread 50471) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-12 08:35:04 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) For me, there is pleasure in rescuing the babies that were throw out with the bathwater of mass production. I shave with a straight razor, write with a fountain pen, use a vacuum tube amplifier in my stereo, and smooth the surface of boards with a hand plane, because I refuse to be in such a hurry that I squeeze the aesthetic value out of everything to gain a few minutes of time - time which will then just be filled with more rushing and more mass-produced, soulless junk. In the drive to achieve instant gratification, we have spent a century trying to shorten the learning curve and eliminate the chance of error in every human activity. There is much good in this, but something has been almost lost in the process. The Galoots are the guardians of that which was almost lost: the challenge of trying to master a skill that can never be fully mastered, the creative freedom that comes from intimacy with a medium as complex as wood, the sense of self-sufficiency that comes from knowing that you can make a useful object with tools so simple that you can make the tools too, and the peaceful meditation of trying to bring eye, hand and wood together into harmony through finess and understanding rather than brute force. That is some of what I see on this list. >>> Paul Pedersen 03/11/2004 8:10:26 PM >>> Richard writes : > There are many Galoots that always caution the rest of us to > use nothing but shellac. And God forbid we would use any glue > other than hide glue. Cleaning a tool? Never. After all, if we > remove the sweat and grime that it's original owner put there > we would lose the value of the tool. Of course that also assumes > that the orginal owner never wiped down his tools or ever made > an attempt to clean them. After all, it would spoil the patina. > Like he had any concern about patina. Me thinks some Galoots > take this a bit too far. There seems to be a strange undercurrent in oldtools that warps what people say, or how some hear it. I don't believe I've ever heard anybody say "use nothing but shellac", or "don't clean tools", or for that matter "hollow grind or get off the list". One of the list's goals is to focus on traditional ways of doing things. And doing them in a traditional environment. That using a tradition approach might get one closer to that goal is only inherent. Two hundred years ago you could not walk into a shop and see shiny tools producing polyurethaned objects. And they're just as out of place in the environment of this list. That's not to say any of this is good or bad, only that there are different places to go to enjoy different environments. I'm sure there are many groups on the internet in which the mention of wire-wheeling a tool wouldn't raise any eyebrows. Oldtools isn't one of them. There are other groups in which polyurethane is seen as a good thing. Again, oldtools isn't one of them. I think it would be easier if there was some way for someone new to oldtools to 'look around' to get some idea of what kind of place this is. Reading the archives may be a way, but certainly not everyone is prepared to do that. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that what this list was created to address is all that visible anymore, day-to-day, so it's a bit hard for a new person to get an idea of the place. Perhaps one way to understand the reason for oldtools' existence is to study the history of woodworking, from books or by stuying real items like furniture or woodwork. In my mind the feeling one gets when admiring a fine piece of old furniture is the feeling one should get when one spends a few minutes in oldtools. When one looks around the oldtools list, one should see old tools, either being used in their original function to produce fine items of woodwork, or just there to be admired for their own sake. One should also see a whole bunch of very friendly people, living a part of their lives together in this environment. As one of the older members of this list put it, it's all a game. And we're all having fun playing the game together. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130567 (thread 50471) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-12 08:54:27 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Hi Ed---I have a 3c with the same kind of pedigree---its last blade is a SW, and that one is worn down to the slot---the bottom of this plane is severely worn, rounded really---you can see from the wear on the corrugations the the toe and tail are at least 1/16 more worn away than the throat area...a straightedge reveals the same thing. So this particular plane has been at work for about 150 years, only ten or so of those years in its 'period'... best to all Gs everywhere; gAM seattle Ed wrote: I have a type 2 #3 (smallish smoother, Jeff) that has a used up sweetheart blade in it. This means that the tools was 50 years old when it got it last blade, and then that was used up! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130577 (thread 50471) ---- From: Paul Morin Date: 2004-03-12 11:04:32 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) It's very very possible.... I don't think i have the original post your comments were made on. One of those oddball see all the replies, but miss the original. I believe the article I red where they recommended the red rubbing compound (turtlewax) was mostly intended for cleaning of wooden (antique) items. I've never used it, haven't had a chance to try it yet. When you mentioned the white compound, I may very well have crossed my wires, thinking you meant the white turtlewax polishing compound. I apologize if I inadvertantly mixed car cleaning items up with jewellers white/rouge polishing compounds. I would imagine the makeup, and use of them are different. I apologize for the confusion I've inadvertantly caused. For now, I think I'll just use Brasso to polish the spittoon. If someone would pass it over here....... paul morin calgary, ab www.cranialstorage.com/wood ----- Original Message ----- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: Thursday, March 11, 2004 4:04 pm Subject: Re: RE: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay) > Hi Paul & All, > > Re this red rubbing vs. white polishing compound thing. Do we maybe > have a contextual mixup? My comments about using the white were made > in the context of Paul having suggested rubbing compound might be > milder and less abrasive than Brasso. That's definitely not true of > any standard red rubbing compound I'm familiar with; it is true of > the white polishing compound. I commented accordingly. There are > some types of old tool cleanup jobs where the gritty red compound > might work quite well and I'm certainly not saying not to use it for > such - just don't start out thinking you're using something milder > than Brasso. > > I also wonder if there might be some breed of red compound using > jewelers rouge as a base which would indeed be milder than Brasso? > > Best Wishes, Bob > > ++++ End of thread 50471 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50472 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130375 (thread 50472) ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-03-09 15:13:54 Subject: Talking of Pit Sawing. . (longish) It seems that the local Council has run out of money to give us some cash, and we need ideas to make a case. . here's the note I received "I tried this on with WCC, but it appears that they are broke; no awards available because of clampdowns on Council Tax levels. Bloody John Prescott... However, the office who deal with these grants reckon that 'Awards for All' which is part of the National Lottery would be a good prospect. So I've downloaded the form and we'll try it on. If you can think of any relationship (however tenuous) between the sawpit and Multiculturalism Social Exclusion Socially attributable health problems Crime Prevention Involving social minorities (ie people who don't drop litter, swear gratuitously or consume vast amounts of salt, fat and sugar) Let me know. It'll all help." So - any ideas amongst us galoots. . . . My first draft which went around our group was like this. . . This proposal is to enable Pepper Wood Community Group to complete the construction of an educational facility demonstrating the conversion of trees to furniture by hand as it would have taken place prior to the introduction of machinery. Pepper Wood Community Group manages a Woodland Trust owned area of 134 acres of part-coppiced oak woodland. The Group is responsible for maintaining a traditional coppice with standards rotation over part of the woodland to promote wildlife habitat and regeneration, and invites participation by volunteers in traditional coppicing. The wood has hosted visits from various parties, and gives demonstrations using typical coppice product. Items such as split hazel hurdlemaking and the manufacture of split oak fence posts using wedges, drawknives and axes. Public interest (and participation) in these activities at demonstrations is consistently high, and the group has widened its demonstration ability to include the use of shave horses and pole lathes to demonstrate production of simple benches from green oak. It is now proposed to complete the 'woodland produce' circle by creating a working pit sawing demonstration area and interpretation boards, and it is for this element that grant funding is sought. Pit sawing of trees into boards is a technique which is mentioned in Roman times, and was the only method of reducing a log to sawn boards for hundreds of years. Although much timber was split, or riven' using sledgehammers and wedges, this is a wasteful means of preparing timber, and the resulting timber requires a large amount of work to dimension it and ready it for use in a manufactured product. Timber which is not amenable to splitting, such as Elm, must be sawn, and the Pit saw was developed for this especial task, and continues in use in many areas of the world. The English tradition requires the log to be supported and placed over a pit, into which one of the sawyers descends. The 'top dog' sawyer is responsible for guiding the saw as the bottom man pulls the blade down, and the two lift the blade for the next stroke. A pit saw is a large and specialised two man saw, several feet long. A 12 hour day spent sawing was hard work indeed, and the sawyers tended to be both wiry and morose. The 'underdog' spent his working day in a pit being showered with sawdust, with perhaps accounts for their taciturnity. Whilst historically accurate for the majority of pit sawing which took place, a pit is neither conducive to public viewing nor safety, so the alternative arrangement for pit sawing, whereby the log is lifted onto trestles will be used to allow the public both to experience being the underdog, and to see and understand the process. The arrangement of the timber onto a raised trestle is equally historically accurate, though was less used in this country, due to the difficulty of raising some tons of timber onto the trestles. In countries where this is and was practiced, earth banks and inclined planes of timber were and are used. In Pepper Wood, the available oak timber is still quite young and of small dimension (for an oak tree!) so the pit saw demonstration area will be constructed with a shallow pit to indicate the small and claustrophobic work situation, and over it a pair of trestles with side timbers to provide an inclined plane for loading and unloading of the timber. This structure and associated works is the principal construction expenditure for the project. Sketches and drawings are attached. Pit saws having been long out of normal use, locating saws which can be put back to use is the major difficulty. However, from time to time they become available amongst old tools collectors and dealers, and there should be no especial difficulty in locating suitable saws. The axes and adzes needed for preparation are still readily available. Safety in handling large timber is a necessary modern change to the methods of loading and unloading, and suitably rated winches and straps will be required. Saw maintenance was and remains the most essential part of sawing, and a saw will be provided to illustrate the differences in saw tooth configurations and the precision required and achieved by hand filing. Whilst the sight of two people at work and the opportunity to become exercised by sawing has some entertainment value in itself, it is in providing an understanding of the place of the sawyer and the pit saw in the development of western society which is the aim of the project. Given that housing, the Industrial Revolution, and the Agrarian Revolution which preceded it were dependent on wooden artifacts for transport, for early machinery, farm implements and for furniture, the role of the sawyer and the scale of the labour involved needs to be explained, and a series of interpretation boards will be provided to amplify and explain the exhibit and demonstration. The production of these will incur a major part of the overall costs. As part of the overall scheme, the output from pit sawing of green timber will be taken to the existing facilities of shave horse and pole lathe, where items such as field gates and joint stools can be produced and finished at the same time. A typical visit / demonstration would therefore cover the entire spectrum of timber felling, conversion, and the production of recognisable utility items from the converted material. The small scale of the undertaking will allow the economy of use inherent in hand work to be demonstrated and explained, and as the hand tools used are all inherently safer than a modern power tool equivalent, it is anticipated that members of the public can try their hand at each part of the operation. Funding and grant requirements Grant aid is sought for the capital costs of building and setting up the demonstration equipment and site and the interpretation material for the public. The ongoing costs of maintenance and depreciation will be funded by the Community Group out of existing income generated by sales of coppice product. Any saleable artifacts which result from the demonstrations will help to finance the ongoing costs of replacement and maintenance. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ++++ End of thread 50472 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50473 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130377 (thread 50473) ---- From: Louis Schmidt Date: 2004-03-09 10:20:25 Subject: Any Gallots in Franklin TN? Hi All, I am considering a move to Franklin TN. Any gallots from there or near there? Any advise about economy, tool availability, acceptance and what to expect from nearby Nashville would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again all. Lou ++++ End of thread 50473 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50474 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130381 (thread 50474) ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-03-09 11:25:30 Subject: Old tool/wood sitings at the Art Institute of Chicago 1. The Rembrandt special exhibit (complete with a guy showing how etchings are printed) has a lovely painting of Jesus's home life, complete with his Dad working at a bench behind the crib. Dad appears to be using an ax to shape a short beam -- the ax has a notch so it can be held close to the blade. There is also a bit (single flute) and brace on the wall behind him, even though the brace was invented well after Roman times. 2. There's also a short hallway with 20th century furniture, including a Wendell Castle laminated bench, the Magician's Birthday Cake clock-like sculpture, and a curvy music stand/lectern. Further down is a real Greene & Greene chair (with lots of "patina") as well as several Stickley and Wright pieces. I'm incredibly happy that I finally saw a G&G piece in person since I've never been able to see the details of their famous cloud lift. The cloud lift, in case anyone else is a G&G fan, is not a squared-off "S" section. It's hard to describe, but a lift that looks something like this: /------------\ ----------/ \----------- -------------------------------------- has been rounded (at the slashes) so that it looks more like a round cornered rectangle on top of the lower piece. The radius between the horizontal and the slashes is quite tight in the side view; it's rounded much more when viewed from the top. >From the top: -------------------------------------- / \ | | \ / -------------------------------------- If it helps any, look at the wide cloud lifts used on beams -- they look like a stack of round cornered rectangles as well, not a rounded staircase done with a coping/b*nd saw; the chair stretchers have the same shape but with much less depth, of course.=20 The other aspect that is much clearer in person is that the cloud lifts define "negative space" -- the convex shape formed in the gap between two lifts is quite clear. Hand tool content: The usual G&G cloud lift imitation looks like it has been done with a template and *l*ctr*c router, or a b*nd saw; I think you'd have to use a rasp to round the slightly angled, lifted part if you want it to look like the original. ---- Start of Message 130384 (thread 50474) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-03-09 11:46:20 Subject: Re: Old tool/wood sitings at the Art Institute of Chicago Meltsner, Kenneth wrote: >1. The Rembrandt special exhibit (complete with a guy showing how >etchings are printed) has a lovely painting of Jesus's home life, >complete with his Dad working at a bench behind the crib. Dad appears >to be using an ax to shape a short beam -- the ax has a notch so it can >be held close to the blade. There is also a bit (single flute) and >brace on the wall behind him, even though the brace was invented well >after Roman times. A few weeks back the Boston Globe did a story on the practice of burying a statue of St Joseph --i.e. Jesus' Dad-- in your yard (apparently, it's supposed to help you sell your house and/or get a good price). All of the statues they showed had St Joseph holding a "bismark" plane (i.e. a horned woody smoother). I don't know how standard this depiction of St Joseph's is (perhaps those more knowledgable than I can comment); but it caught my eye. Nichael ---- Start of Message 130388 (thread 50474) ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-03-09 13:59:35 Subject: Re: Old tool/wood sitings at the Art Institute of Chicago Nichael Cramer wrote: > A few weeks back the Boston Globe did a story on the practice of > burying > a statue of St Joseph --i.e. Jesus' Dad-- in your yard (apparently, > it's > supposed to help you sell your house and/or get a good price). > GG: In my neck of the woods it is always buried with his head showing. Can't make many shavings in that position. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 130389 (thread 50474) ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-03-09 14:15:31 Subject: RE: Old tool/wood sitings at the Art Institute of Chicago Found a Net-accessible copy of the picture of Jesus and his dad the carpenter: http://www.abcgallery.com/R/rembrandt/rembrandt76.html Definitely easier to see the tools on the original, though. Ken ---- Start of Message 130390 (thread 50474) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-09 14:29:12 Subject: Re: Old tool/wood sitings at the Art Institute of Chicago Hi Nichael & All, Nichael's comment about burying the statue of St. Joseph for house selling purposes tweaked my interest enough for me to plug "St. Joseph statue" into Google. I'd never heard of that before, but the first several listings are for outfits selling the statues for that purpose. After seeing them, it now strikes me as a Barnum "one born every minute" type thing. The statue shown by one of those outfits did not have him holding a plane. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130416 (thread 50474) ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-03-09 18:58:17 Subject: Re: Old tool/wood sitings at the Art Institute of Chicago > > Nichael Cramer wrote: > >> A few weeks back the Boston Globe did a story on the practice of >> burying >> a statue of St Joseph --i.e. Jesus' Dad-- in your yard (apparently, >> it's >> supposed to help you sell your house and/or get a good price). >> > > GG: > > In my neck of the woods it is always buried with his head showing. > Can't make many shavings in that position. My neck of the woods isn't so far from your's, and I've always heard the statue is supposed to be head down. After sale, one is supposed to dig it up and place it in the new home in a conspicuous place. I have a suspicion this "tradition" started when some policeman of the Emerald Society, whose patron is St. Joseph, teamed up with a real estate agent (who is no stranger to the bottle) to start it. It spread like wildfire. Anyway, depictions of St. Joseph with handplanes are very common. A few decorate my shop. My sister is in a convent with a large statue that has St. Joseph holding a Bismark plane. I like that statue, and hope it never gets buried. Regards, Steve ++++ End of thread 50474 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50475 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130391 (thread 50475) ---- From: tomthornton Date: 2004-03-09 07:49:21 Subject: Shipping costs I'll take the other side, I've had two grinders come in with broken necks due to lousy packing and really there is no recourse. I only paid 10.00 for one and 11.00 for other so they are not worth hassling about. But I'd rather pay too much and get it right than go cheap and loose everything. I now rarely buy e-bay grinders because of shipping risk. I have bot several Comptometers, very heavy, and offered to pay extra for secure packing. The all came in ok, but same thing applies, if they were damaged in shipment there would be simply no value left. Many times it is better to pay too much than too little. Think about it !! -- Tom Thornton Cincinnati #3, Morristown N.J. USA Collector of old tools, specializing in Hand Cranked Grindstones ++++ End of thread 50475 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50476 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130395 (thread 50476) ---- From: "Ron Hock" Date: 2004-03-09 12:22:31 Subject: Last word, I hope, but a bit more on-topic...Re: [oldtools] Minimum bid vs reser Todd speaks truth (though I doubt the SOB part): > Guess I am a trusting S.O.B but I hardly ever wait till a check clears > to ship an item out that I sold. A personal check payment gets shipped just > as fast,[normally with in 3 days of getting it] as a Money Order payment. > Maybe I have been lucky but in many,[and I mean many!] thousands of > transactions have never had a bad check. One bounced but was a mistake and > the guy made good right away. I actually prefer a person pays with a check > because it is easier to deal with if something goes wrong like it gets lost > in the mail or the bidder pays me twice.....Todd Todd groks something that the rest of you are feeling but not fully trusting. In 22 years of doing business with woodworkers (thousands of transactions) I've been burned exactly twice (I can name them both...) I don't know about the rest of eBay (and I really couldn't care less) but if you're dealing with the woodworking community, you're dealing with the highest level of integrity, intelligence, decency and honesty. The convenience of trusting your customers far outweighs the perceived security of money orders or waiting for checks to clear and the attendant pita. Give yourselves a big hug and pat on the back and accept my deepest gratitude for making at least part of my job so incredibly easy. Ya' gotta love a Galoot! So TRUST one another -- go ahead, it Feels Good! Don't let the Dark Side of eBay-and-Gomorrah dim the glow of our Fundamental Goodness. OldTools Terms elevate us from the gutter of everyday commerce and affirm our special place in the grand order of things. Take PRIDE (yes, I said it, PRIDE) in who you are and your special relationship with wood and its workers. Rise up and SHINE, brothers and sisters, for you have earned it by your noble thoughts and deeds! Everybody get together try to love one another right now... (Sorry, that just happens to be playing in the background as I'm typing this. It's cosmic. Really it is.) Can I get an "Amen"?! Peace, The Rev (Who learned quite a lot from this very off-topic thread about eBay sellers and how they think.) ----- Ron Hock HOCK TOOLS www.hocktools.com 16650 Mitchell Creek Dr. Fort Bragg, CA 95437 (707) 964-2782 toll free: (888) 282-5233 fax: (707) 964-7816 ++++ End of thread 50476 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50477 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130396 (thread 50477) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-09 20:26:58 Subject: Last word, I hope, but a bit more on-topic...Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shi AMEN! Brother Ron. AMEN! ++++ End of thread 50477 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50478 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130397 (thread 50478) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-09 12:27:07 Subject: Things that go bump in the night I am curious about something. Since I am just one cut above computer illiterate, I don't quite understand why I sometimes read replies to messages that I never received. And sometimes I send a post to oldtools and never see it. Does this happen to others? Do emails just vanish into the ether? Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA Just wondering in So Cal where it is 92 degrees right now. ---- Start of Message 130404 (thread 50478) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-09 13:48:32 Subject: Re: Things that go bump in the night > I don't quite understand why I sometimes read replies to messages > that I never received. And sometimes I send a post to oldtools and > never see it. Does this happen to others? > Yup. me also. Anyone else? I suspect the rampant virus and server pinged-to-death activity going on out there right now is causing some trouble. It's sporadic here. Then returns to normal. Hope this isn't what we can learn to expect now. Death to spammers and a special lingering hell to virus inventors! Oh, I never saw a copy of your post either, Esther, and now I's suspicious our servers are having a private spat on top of regular hysteria. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130410 (thread 50478) ---- From: "David Clapp" Date: 2004-03-09 16:34:36 Subject: Re: Things that go bump in the night Scott says: >Yup. me also. Anyone else? > I suspect the rampant virus and server pinged-to-death activity going >on out there right now is causing some trouble. It's sporadic here. Then >returns to normal. Hope this isn't what we can learn to expect now. I use a hotmail address for the list and I swear that everytime there's an Orange Alert, the mail kinda stops and then comes in as a wave (or not) sometime later. Maybe I've just spent too much time with LeCarre/Oliver Stone/X Files/Mitnick etc. David Clapp _________________________________________________________________ Fast. Reliable. Get MSN 9 Dial-up - 3 months for the price of 1! (Limited-time Offer) http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ ---- Start of Message 130412 (thread 50478) ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-03-09 22:33:58 Subject: re: Things that go bump in the night I'm not sure but it may be related to certian Galoots ability to shanghi FS posts with nice saws in them. Easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle than to sneak a saw past TP. Steve ---- Start of Message 130526 (thread 50478) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-11 16:39:27 Subject: Re: Things that go bump in the night I don't get much of that but I found an easier way around starting a thread. I simply reply all to someone, select all and cut the body of the message and then I backspace over the name but not the oldtools part. Then I backspace over the subject topic and write whatever I want to. So far using this method I have seen all of my messages and things work fine. Now the thing I do get is double messages. One night I mentioned it to my ISP and they helped me out with some sw setting changes on another issue. I was getting returned messages which is why I adopted the above mentioned method in my first paragraph. If anyone is having similiar trouble that 'fix" worked for me. You might want to try that when starting a new conversation thread, Jim. Jim Thompson: Also, I don't know if you know this but originally the internet was not conceived for social civilian use. It was meant to communicate via secured servers in the event of nuclear war. Apparently the secured servers were immune to EM Pulses, probably with lead shielding or somesuch. Those are vaguely the details the way I remember it, I am sure it has come a long way since and have no doubt there are those much more knowledgeable on the topic on the oldtools list. Anyway, my general impression is that maybe some of the pathways certain messages you post work while others do not. I am guessing that my above mentioned method may work because it takes an already known useable path. Beyond that it apparently gets really tricky. I seem to vaguely recall something about messages being split up and sent different ways or something along those lines. The gist of it is that if one server/computer is taken out due to military action the message will still get through. Try the above method for starting your threads. It's really very easy once you do it a few times. > From: scott grandstaff > Jim Thompson said: > > I don't quite understand why I sometimes read replies to messages > > that I never received. And sometimes I send a post to oldtools and > > never see it. Does this happen to others? > > > Yup. me also. Anyone else? > I suspect the rampant virus and server pinged-to-death activity > going on out there right now is causing some trouble. It's sporadic > here. Then returns to normal. Hope this isn't what we can learn to > expect now. > Death to spammers and a special lingering hell to virus inventors! As far as viruses go I use earthlink for an ISP and their online email virus scanner so all my emails should be virus free. They really seem on top of it but otherwise McAfee or a similiar program would be a good idea for anyone. ++++ End of thread 50478 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50479 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130406 (thread 50479) ---- From: NickNaylo@a... Date: 2004-03-09 17:08:30 Subject: Re: Last word, I hope, but a bit more on-topic...Re: [oldtools] Minimum bid vs r No wonder he's called The Reverend Ron. ms-sf Rise up and SHINE, brothers and sisters, for you have earned it by your noble thoughts and deeds! Everybody get together try to love one another right now... (Sorry, that just happens to be playing in the background as I'm typing this. It's cosmic. Really it is.) Can I get an "Amen"?! Peace, The Rev ++++ End of thread 50479 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50480 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130408 (thread 50480) ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-03-09 22:21:35 Subject: Ohio Tool Co. Transitional I found a very nice Ohio Tool Co. transitional yesterday. About seven and three quartes long with a one and three-quartes width blade. Ohio Tool globe logo on the iron and very faintly on the body. At first ans even second glance it looks very much like the Stanley 21 thru 25 series. The bigest difference is this one has a thich tapered blade. Even without truing the sole it takes very nice shavings. At $7.50 is this a gloat or did I buy expensive fire wood? Hoped someone could give me som information as I cn't seem to find much reference material on Ohio Tool. Thanks Steve ---- Start of Message 130415 (thread 50480) ---- From: Steve and Dianne Noe Date: 2004-03-09 18:39:22 Subject: Re: Ohio Tool Co. Transitional on 3/9/04 5:21 PM, Steve lineback at stevelineback@c... wrote: [snip]=20 >Even without truing the sole it takes > very nice shavings. At $7.50 is this a gloat or did I buy expensive fire = wood? I think you answered your own question: it takes nice shavings. What more can you ask? > Hoped someone could give me som information as I cn't seem to find much > reference material on Ohio Tool. > Thanks > Steve Sorry I can't help with Ohio tools details - maybe Tony Seo or Jim Cook. Steve Noe, in Indianapolis dandsnoe@m... We are not =B3Passengers on SpaceShip Earth,=B2 we are crew, and it=B9s about time we took our duties seriously. ---- Start of Message 130423 (thread 50480) ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-03-09 18:01:08 Subject: Re: Ohio Tool Co. Transitional Offhand, the thing that I remember about Ohio metal and transitional planes is that they used the same numbering system as Stanley except the numbers are prefixed by an "O" (letter o) which could be mistaken for a "0" (zero). And of course the bench planes had thicker tapered blades. One of my favorite planes is an Ohio-made No. 3 size smoother. Can't seem to find the Ohio catalog reprint at the moment, but I am pretty sure that they made a O21 as well as many of the other sizes equivelant to Stanley's. ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130438 (thread 50480) ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-03-10 07:15:00 Subject: Re: Ohio Tool Co. Transitional A good source of Ohio Tool information is Mark van Roojen's webpage: http://www.geocities.com/mvr1.geo/oldtoolinfo.html ---- Start of Message 130443 (thread 50480) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 2004-03-10 08:52:46 Subject: Re: Ohio Tool Co. Transitional Steve Lineback asked: >I found a very nice Ohio Tool Co. transitional yesterday. About >seven and three quarters long with a one and three-quarters width >blade. Ohio Tool globe logo on the iron and very faintly on the >body. At first and even second glance it looks very much like the >Stanley 21 thru 25 series. The biggest difference is this one has a >thick tapered blade. ... From a small flyer of "Ohio Adjustable Planes" published about 1915 (republished by Ken Roberts, 1981): "Adjustable Wood Bottom Planes" Smooths Invoice Length Cutter Nos. Inches Inches O21 . . . 7 . . 1 3/4 O22 . . . 8 . . 1 3/4 O23 . . . 9 . . 1 3/4 O24 . . . 8 . . 2 This same flyer also promoted the tapered irons as a feature: "The Cutters in 'Ohio' Iron and Wood bottom Bench Planes are made EXTRA HEAVY AT THE CUTTING END where weight is needed, tapering gradually toward the top of the iron. This absolutely prevents chatter and trembling when the planes are used on hard or knotty timber." In his commentary accompanying this flyer, Roberts reports that it was believed that the manufacture of metallic and adjustable wood bottom planes, by the Ohio Tool Company, began subsequent to the buyout of the Ohio Tool Company by the Auburn Tool Company in 1893. Does anyone know when the "globe logo" came into use? Ken Roberts also reproduced the cover and one page from an undated catalogue (but which mentions an award from the 1900 Paris Exposition), which shows a logo with the letters "O" "T" & "Co" superimposed on each other. This seems to suggest that the globe logo *may* have come in to use some time after 1900 (but definitely by 1910, when it is prominently shown in Catalogue No. 23). Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ++++ End of thread 50480 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50481 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130411 (thread 50481) ---- From: Mark Marsay Date: 2004-03-09 22:35:50 Subject: Last word, I hope, but a bit more on-topic...Re: [oldtools] Minimum bid vs reser Tutti amen, dio glorioso! didn't realise what I was starting by a simple question! and the results of both the list replies and off list replies: No one knows which is best, its come out about 50:50. Listmoms: sorry for starting this! Regards, Mark Marsay, Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. > >Subject: Last word, I hope, but a bit more on-topic...Re: [oldtools] >Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs From: "Ron Hock" >Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 12:22:31 -0800 To: "oldtools" > >Todd speaks truth (though I doubt the SOB part): > >> Guess I am a trusting S.O.B but I hardly ever wait till a check >clears >> to ship an item out that I sold. A personal check payment gets >> shipped >just >> as fast,[normally with in 3 days of getting it] as a Money Order >> payment. Maybe I have been lucky but in many,[and I mean many!] >> thousands of transactions have never had a bad check. One bounced but >> was a mistake and the guy made good right away. I actually prefer a >> person pays with a check because it is easier to deal with if >> something goes wrong like it gets >lost >> in the mail or the bidder pays me twice.....Todd > >Todd groks something that the rest of you are feeling but not fully >trusting. In 22 years of doing business with woodworkers (thousands of >transactions) I've been burned exactly twice (I can name them both...) >I don't know about the rest of eBay (and I really couldn't care less) >but if you're dealing with the woodworking community, you're dealing >with the highest level of integrity, intelligence, decency and honesty. >The convenience of trusting your customers far outweighs the perceived >security of money orders or waiting for checks to clear and the >attendant pita. > >Give yourselves a big hug and pat on the back and accept my deepest >gratitude for making at least part of my job so incredibly easy. Ya' >gotta love a Galoot! > >So TRUST one another -- go ahead, it Feels Good! Don't let the Dark >Side of eBay-and-Gomorrah dim the glow of our Fundamental Goodness. >OldTools Terms elevate us from the gutter of everyday commerce and >affirm our special place in the grand order of things. Take PRIDE >(yes, I said it, PRIDE) in who you are and your special relationship >with wood and its workers. Rise up and SHINE, brothers and sisters, >for you have earned it by your noble thoughts and deeds! Everybody get >together try to love one another right now... (Sorry, that just >happens to be playing in the background as I'm typing this. It's >cosmic. Really it is.) > >Can I get an "Amen"?! > >Peace, The Rev (Who learned quite a lot from this very off-topic thread >about eBay sellers and how they think.) > > >----- >Ron Hock HOCK TOOLS www.hocktools.com 16650 Mitchell Creek Dr. Fort >Bragg, CA 95437 >(707) 964-2782 toll free: (888) 282-5233 fax: (707) 964-7816 > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ++++ End of thread 50481 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50482 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130413 (thread 50482) ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-03-09 14:52:30 Subject: Stuck Chuck It's a 10" Craftsman brace marked BB, so Miller Falls? Looks to be rosewood and nice and stout. The ratcheting locks (haven't found a nice labeled diagram yet, so I'll make up terminology) move freely when the sleeve is rotated. But the chuck itself is happy where it is. Soaked it in kerosene for three days and slid a 1" crescent wrench in the slot and whacked on it until I got tired. There was a webpage (which I can't find now) where someone posted their illustrated adventure in disassembling a ratcheting chuck. The only way in seems to be the screw on the top, which doesn't budge either. There are two pins evident that hold the two locks in place. Perhaps driving them out would give me more access to the chuck bearing, but that's probably a low-percentage approach. I realize it's easier to relegate this brace to the non-ratcheting pile, but this is the nicest one I have so far and I want to see it be all that it can be. So, fire? ice? Bolt it to the washing machine for a few months? Maybe this could become a webcam event--I'll take suggestions from the audience and bets made whether it breaks before it's fixed. Kyle Accardi waiting for the final coat of shellac to dry on the new bench ---- Start of Message 130419 (thread 50482) ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-03-10 01:12:29 Subject: re: Stuck Chuck Kyle Befor you get drastic you might pop it in the electro rap tank for an hour or so. Just the chuck end, no need to get the wood wet. Steve ---- Start of Message 130434 (thread 50482) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-10 00:38:56 Subject: RE: Stuck Chuck Kyle Accardi posted: > Soaked it in kerosene for three days and slid a 1" crescent wrench in the > slot and whacked on it until I got tired. There was a webpage (which I > can't find now) where someone posted their illustrated adventure in > disassembling a ratcheting chuck. I suggest you go to your nearest automotive store and hope they have a red and white metal pint can of "Seafoam". This car product has taken a cue from one of the airplane's industry finest solvents known as Stoddard Solvent. As I recall its 1/3 solvent, 1/3 lubricant, and 1/3 alcohol so keep it away from the shellac finishes as well. It excels at loosening bolts and it is relabeled as "Deep Creep" in a pressurized spray can for just this kind of thing. I gotta look at the picture again. If you could get the wooden handle off safely I would try heat. Maybe you could even wrap up the wood handle and dunk it all but the chuck in some icewater and heat it with a torch. Most people say heat the inside and try it hot but I find that unneccesarily dangerous and do just the opposite (heat the outside) and wait for it to cool before trying it. I reason that this, at least in the typical nut and bolt problem, compresses the rust between the nut and the bolt. It squeezes it, compacts it, weakens it, whathave you.... and well this works if nothing else does. If this doesn't work I usually add a piece of pipe as an extension and sometimes it comes off greating great heat as it does and other times it snaps and I spend an hour nervously drilling hoping not to ruin the threads. (this is from car repair experience, BTW) Another thing I should mention with the soaking solvent idea. Most people highly under rate the idea of just giving it an occasional tap with a mallet or hammer. This just helps the solvent/lubricant into the deep rust. I've heard others swear by heating it and using beeswax. Apparently it draws it right in there and the guy I got this from is one of the most amazingly talented people I have ever met in terms of all things mechanical so his word is good by me. You have to be careful with this next bit but sometimes I make a minor effort to tighten it before loosening it. This is a little like rocking a car out of a hole. Sometimes this will give you just enough added clearance within the tight parts that the solvent and lubricant can sink in and do its job. Good luck. This makes me wonder if there is anything that might chemically dissolve rust but not the metal. That would seem ideal to your problem. ---- Start of Message 130435 (thread 50482) ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-03-09 23:07:34 Subject: Re: Stuck Chuck John Sawchak suggest Seafoam which I will look for. But he loses me in the following, > Most people say heat the inside and try it hot but I find that unneccesarily > dangerous and do just the opposite (heat the outside) and wait for it to > cool before trying it. By inside, do you mean, umm what do you mean? > If this doesn't work I usually > add a piece of pipe as an extension and sometimes it comes off greating > great heat as it does and other times it snaps and I spend an hour > nervously drilling hoping not to ruin the threads. More confusion. If anything snaps it'll be the chuck body and nervousness will instantly be replaced by other emotions. > Another thing I should mention with the soaking solvent idea. Most people > highly under rate the idea of just giving it an occasional tap with a > mallet or hammer. This just helps the solvent/lubricant into the deep rust. I'm a big fan of whacking stuff. I used to troubleshoot electronics this way. A friend tells of an old man he knew with a seized car engine who would go out every morning and rock the wheel back and forth (presumably up on blocks) a couple times. A few years later the crank was freed. > Good luck. This makes me wonder if there is anything that might chemically > dissolve rust but not the metal. That would seem ideal to your problem. Electro-chemical (zapping) has been suggested. I have the washing soda in hand and will scour the thrift stores tomorrow for a charger. Cheers, Kyle Accardi who is happy for the winner of this tasty Record #050, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3278674632&category=13874 and didn't bid 'cause the shipping to the US was approx 3x the winning price. ---- Start of Message 130887 (thread 50482) ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-03-18 17:34:06 Subject: Re: Stuck Chuck Free at last! Zapped the business end for 5 or 6 hours @ 2A. Rinsed with water and loaded up again with wd-40. Took five minutes of hammering (soft face) on the bow with the big steel wrench in the chuck body, but it finally gave up and decided to ratchet again. Was even able to tap out the chuck body out and give everything a good cleaning. (I did wirebrush the ratchet splines, shhh). Some axle grease, some light oil. Hello Bob. Only casualty was the handle which split in two places. Probably while holding onto it during the hammer blows. It's still in one piece and should glue okay. Thanks for all the suggestions, especially the ones that pushed me to set up a zap tank, now onto some saws. Cheers, Kyle Accardi ++++ End of thread 50482 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50483 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130417 (thread 50483) ---- From: mimulus@p... Date: 2004-03-09 17:05:35 Subject: Numbered and lettered Drill bit Folks, I scored about 15 minutes late saturday afternoon and spent it at a garage sale. Picked up a tacklebox full of drill bits -- 3 expansion bits, a countersink rose, and a slough of twist bits. Normal stuff, except for a couple of Morse Machine Company drill bit holders dated 1906 -- one for fractional sizes, one for numbered. No lettered bit holder. Can anyone elucidate the purpose/history of lettered and numbered drill bits? I think i got a handle on the fractional sizes. cur ---- Start of Message 130422 (thread 50483) ---- From: "Michael A. Lietzow" Date: 2004-03-09 17:07:21 Subject: Re: Numbered and lettered Drill bit GGs, cur asked about the origin of different twist drill sizing systems. I don't have an answer but request that responses be posted to the List (as opposed to private replies) since I've often wondered about the same thing. Cheers, Mike in unseasonably HOT! San Diego County ---- Start of Message 130454 (thread 50483) ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 2004-03-10 09:26:37 Subject: Re: Numbered and lettered Drill bit Hi, All The advantage of the numbered and lettered drill bits is that they are spaced closer together in sizes than the ones in fractional inches. If you need a hole just sligthtly bigger or smaller than 1/4", you can find those sizes in the numbered drills. Trevor ---- Start of Message 130491 (thread 50483) ---- From: "Christopher Biggs" Date: 2004-03-11 15:52:48 Subject: Re: Numbered and lettered Drill bit mimulus@p... moved upon the face of the 'Net and spake thusly: > Can anyone elucidate the purpose/history of lettered and numbered drill > bits? I think i got a handle on the fractional sizes. The number- and letter-series drill bits are special purpose bits related to the standard (hah) US machine screw sizes. They are the tap drill sizes for common US threads, and also the correct oversize bits for "close fit" and "free fit" on those threads. Example here: http://www.offroaders.com/info/tech-corner/taps-drills.htm --cjb ---- Start of Message 130518 (thread 50483) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-11 12:22:38 Subject: Re: Numbered and lettered Drill bit Ditto on Mike's thought. I seem to learn the most here from the conversations I don't even post in. Something to do with listening better when the mouth is shut, maybe? > [Original Message] > From: Michael A. Lietzow > GGs, > > cur asked about the origin of different twist drill sizing systems. I > don't have an answer but request that responses be posted to the List (as > opposed to private replies) since I've often wondered about the same > thing. ++++ End of thread 50483 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50484 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130418 (thread 50484) ---- From: tomthornton Date: 2004-03-09 20:11:08 Subject: wierd tool hot water bottle Have been nursing a wife with pneumonia, now trying to heal the intestines after the anti bodies killed the pneumonia & good bacteria as well. Cat scan accident caused large swelling in arm. Need hot water bottle I found the old one and decided I'd just heat it in the radar range. Seems to work fine but am I rotting the rubber as well ? Also was wondering, we have the plastic bottles of blue something we get cold for use in the summer cooler. Could I heat them as well or will they blow up ?? weird I know but you may be wondering the same thing some day -- Tom Thornton Cincinnati #3, Morristown N.J. USA Collector of old tools, specializing in Hand Cranked Grindstones ---- Start of Message 130431 (thread 50484) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-09 23:51:02 Subject: RE: wierd tool hot water bottle > From: tomthornton > Have been nursing a wife with pneumonia, now trying to heal > the intestines after the anti bodies killed the pneumonia & good > bacteria as well. Cat scan accident caused large swelling in arm. Yogurt is great to replenish the good bacteria, as is buttermilk. Some of the things like oatmeal and grains are known to encourage the good bacteria growth. There's more to old grandma's "You need your roughage" line than meets the eye. The science is backing it up and proving it good in ways people probably never imagined. > Also was wondering, we have the plastic bottles of blue something we > get cold for use in the summer cooler. Could I heat them as > well or will they blow up ?? Besides blowing up the issue is that some of those plastics are not meant to be heated. Which is why they say never reheat those deli containers and so forth. Apparently they give off some bad chemicals if they do. Better than a hot water bottle is to head down to your local drug store and buy a heating pad. The three heat selections are pretty handy for comfort and you will never have to be running back and forth refilling water. I would think that alone would be worth the price. I've got one that has a removable foam type pad that can be drenched in water, squeezed out, and put back under the outside covering for moist heat. Good luck. Healing up from any illness is no fun. I have had eight operations myself. ++++ End of thread 50484 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50485 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130420 (thread 50485) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-10 01:31:17 Subject: Banner Old Tool Days Boxes have been arriving at my door. Got a mixed bag of auger bits including to adjustables today, along with a Champion saw jointer. A couple folding rules and a #77(?) marking gauge over the weekend. Got to try out my #80 Scraper today along with a shave I got last week. Both sharpened up nicely. Gotta get to work on the 12 1/2 scraper and those augers need some edge work. What should I use to sharpen them. I've got saw files and bastard single cut, but that one is too big. They look like they mostly need touching up, no nicks or anything. I've got a couple narrow stones. My first brace and bits, so I'm sorta at a loss. Jointed a D-95 I got for a song and cleaned up some, and started fileing the teeth, but LOML was acting like she wanted some time. ---- Start of Message 130421 (thread 50485) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-10 01:38:54 Subject: re: Banner Old Tool Days Oh, and best of all, my split nut Disston back saw came in Friday. Its real purty. ---- Start of Message 130424 (thread 50485) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-03-09 18:30:57 Subject: Re: Banner Old Tool Days On 10 Mar 2004 at 1:31, Jerry Palmer wrote: > Got to try out my #80 Scraper today along with a shave I got last > week. Both sharpened up nicely. Gotta get to work on the 12 1/2 > scraper and those augers need some edge work. What should I use to > sharpen them. I've got saw files and bastard single cut, but that one > is too big. They look like they mostly need touching up, no nicks or anything. I've got a couple narrow stones. My first brace and bits, so I'm sorta at a loss. You need an auger bit file, specifically made for this job and with safe edges so that the rest of the bit won't be damaged by sharpening. Here's a source: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page =32954&category=1,43072,43089 -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 130425 (thread 50485) ---- From: "Pete Bergstrom" Date: 2004-03-09 20:35:05 Subject: Re: Banner Old Tool Days "Jerry Palmer" wrote: > .. those augers need some edge work. What should I use to sharpen them. I've got saw files and bastard single cut, but that one is too big. They look like they mostly need touching up, no nicks or anything. I've got a couple narrow stones. My first brace and bits, so I'm sorta at a loss. There are special files for sharpening augur bits. I don't know where you're located, but in St. Paul, Minnesota, you can pick them up at 7 Corners Hardware downtown for ~$10-12 each. They also do mail order. I think I've also seen them for sale in Highland Hardware's catalog. Pete ---- Start of Message 130426 (thread 50485) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-10 02:57:53 Subject: Re: Banner Old Tool Days Thanks folks. The pic did it for me. Got an old fashioned hardware store nearby that has stuff you can't find at the big box stores. I think I've seen those there. ++++ End of thread 50485 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50486 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130427 (thread 50486) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-09 22:00:17 Subject: Lions, Samsons and Bears Hello, Going with the current brace theme...some braces Left - Millers falls with "Lion" Chuck Middle - PS & W with "Samson" Chuck Right - Stanley's version, my go to brace. http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=396 all good ratcheting users for both round and tanged bits. Hey?! where'd everyone go??????????????? sorry, no saws here A close up of the look alike chuck shells http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=397 Later jonathan ---- Start of Message 130430 (thread 50486) ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-03-09 19:51:40 Subject: Re: Lions, Samsons and Bears Thanks, Johathan. That's been very helpful. I've been hearing about these different chucks but wasn't sure how to identify what they look like. Now I know. Thanks! Old tools! Yeah! AAAndrew Liking old tools in Durham, North Carolina --- Jonathan Peck wrote: > Hello, > > Going with the current brace theme...some braces > Left - Millers falls with "Lion" Chuck > Middle - PS & W with "Samson" Chuck > Right - Stanley's version, my go to brace. > http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=396 > all good ratcheting users for both round and tanged > bits. Hey?! where'd everyone > go??????????????? sorry, no saws here > > A close up of the look alike chuck shells > http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=397 > > Later > jonathan > > > > > Archive: > http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web > interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 50486 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50487 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130428 (thread 50487) ---- From: "Greg Peters" Date: 2004-03-10 02:40:32 Subject: A gloat, and some advice So...I happen to bid on a few harmless saws (and I have read, nearly memorized 'Daddy has a saw problem') on some well known auction site http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3276919472 When I ask the seller (AFTER I've won the saws)--what do the 3 Disston medallions say (Disston USA, Disston Philly or H Disston and Sons. His response-- Disston USA Disston USA Disston Philad For $8, I'm thinking I got exactly what I paid for.... So imagine my surprise when one of the medallions was not just Disston Philad, but... H Disston Philad, and it was an eagle (the largest saw in the bunch--a 28" rip saw, 4 TPI) Erik's work places it in the late 1840/50's. Now what? I'd like to restore it to "working condition", though not actually use it. The blade peeks out from underneath a dense protective layer of rust, which I figure I can remove with 45,000 grit sandpaper and 10 years of sanding. The handle is pretty dry, though (strangely) no checks are visible on the handle. Questions for the Galloterrati.... Sand the blade smooth (raise the stamp?--I can't even see that yet)? Sand, Oil and Shellac the handle? (I've had good luck with this sort of restoration before--1870's Disston Rip saws) Sharpen the blade? The teeth are pretty consistent, semi-sharp; though need jointing and a consistent depth--in all, not much work. Polish brass split screws? Heck, I haven't even made the driver for these screws yet. Where is the line drawn? Erik? Pete (I'll get to you on the files soon)? Al Perrault? Sandy? I'd normally think a glaot would make you walk a bit taller, but now I sort of cringe in fear that I'd do something wrong.... On the boards or off, responses are appreciated Greg ---- Start of Message 130439 (thread 50487) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-10 13:15:09 Subject: re: A gloat, and some advice >I'd normally think a glaot would make you walk a bit taller, but >now I >sort of cringe in fear that I'd do something wrong.... Guess there's a flip side to every coin. What a steal. I won't pretend to know what to tell you to do, and hope that the responses come on here as I recently got a much later split nut back saw that I will probably put in a display case or something. No rust on this one when I got it, but the patina is pretty dark. ---- Start of Message 130447 (thread 50487) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-10 06:49:32 Subject: Re: A gloat, and some advice I have been playing around with cleaning medallions, and I have come to this for an answer. Get a soft brass wire brush from Horror Frate or other supplier. Get some good, high quality metal polish, and use the brush with the polish in a fairly gentle motion to clean the brass medallion. (Medallion removed from handle) This will, in time, remove the crud and leave a clean medallion. I don't think there is much if any wear inflicted on the medallion this way. You can stop at any point along the way and check your progress. If you like what you see, stop. It doesn't have to be totally clean. But even if you do clean it all the way, in a year or so the oxidation will return and it won't look all brand new after that. For the handle, first try fine steel wool followed by wax. If that isn't good enough, the other options are still open. On Tuesday, March 9, 2004, at 06:40 PM, Greg Peters wrote: > So...I happen to bid on a few harmless saws (and I have read, nearly > memorized 'Daddy has a saw problem') on some well known auction site > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3276919472 > > When I ask the seller (AFTER I've won the saws)--what do the 3 Disston > medallions say (Disston USA, Disston Philly or H Disston and Sons. > His response-- > > Disston USA > Disston USA > Disston Philad > > For $8, I'm thinking I got exactly what I paid for.... > > So imagine my surprise when one of the medallions was not just Disston > Philad, but... > > H Disston Philad, and it was an eagle > > (the largest saw in the bunch--a 28" rip saw, 4 TPI) > > Erik's work places it in the late 1840/50's. > > Now what? I'd like to restore it to "working condition", though not > actually use it. The blade peeks out from underneath a dense > protective layer of rust, which I figure I can remove with 45,000 grit > sandpaper and 10 years of sanding. The handle is pretty dry, though > (strangely) no checks are visible on the handle. > > Questions for the Galloterrati.... > > Sand the blade smooth (raise the stamp?--I can't even see that yet