++++ Start of thread 50377 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130001 (thread 50377) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-03 09:01:16 Subject: following bead Greetings all, I'm just starting to learn about wooden molding planes and have a new guy question for you old hands. I think I understand that there is a type of beading plane with a feature called a follow which is essentially a sole with a two-bead profile and an iron with only a one bead profile. The "empty" bead in the sole profile is used to register against a bead already cut in the work piece and guide the cutting of a new bead. Is this correct so far? If so, my question is this: how can you cut the first bead with a bead plane that has a follow? Doesn't the empty bead in the sole profile run aground on the work piece and prevent the iron from cutting? Do you need to cut a dado for the empty bead to ride in while cutting the first bead? Or do you always have to start it on the edge of the board? Blake ---- Start of Message 130063 (thread 50377) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-03-03 20:36:16 Subject: Re: following bead On 3 Mar 2004 at 9:01, Blake Ashley wrote: > I'm just starting to learn about wooden molding planes and have a new > guy question for you old hands. I think I understand that there is a > type of beading plane with a feature called a follow which is > essentially a sole with a two-bead profile and an iron with only a one > bead profile. The "empty" bead in the sole profile is used to register > against a bead already cut in the work piece and guide the cutting of a > new bead. Is this correct so far? If so, my question is this: how can > you cut the first bead with a bead plane that has a follow? Doesn't the > empty bead in the sole profile run aground on the work piece and prevent > the iron from cutting? Do you need to cut a dado for the empty bead to > ride in while cutting the first bead? Or do you always have to start it > on the edge of the board? The terminology I was taught for this plane is a reed and follow, although Whelan (The Wooden Plane) calls it a reed and guide based on some early UK catalogs. Of course, reeding is simply multiple beads laid down in parallel. As Whelan suggests (but does not explicitly state), you cut the first one with another plane, either a side bead (if starting at an edge) or a center bead of identical size. Once you have the first bead, you run the "follow" or guide part down it, cutting adjacent reeds as you go and moving over one reed at a time until you get tired of making them. In other words, you need another tool (what else did you expect here?). Whelan also cites a special plane made by Howarth that gets around this problem by having two irons, a single and double bead in a triple reeding plane. You cut the first three together, then remove the single iron and add pairs of reeds using the vacated space as a follow. Never seen one of these. I'm not sure I would want that many reeds together anyway; three's about my limit. I thought I had a reed and follow picked up in England when Richard and I were ravaging the Cotswolds for stray tools, but it was merely a triple reed plane. Darn, guess I found another plane I need. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ++++ End of thread 50377 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50378 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130003 (thread 50378) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-03 09:05:05 Subject: Fulton combo plane Hi all, Will the Stanley three-lobe nicker fit the Fulton (Sargent-made) combination plane? Thanks. Blake ++++ End of thread 50378 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50379 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130012 (thread 50379) ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-03-03 11:23:51 Subject: Chicago Heights (was Re: [oldtools] OLD Forge Gloat) Bob Nelson wrote: > I don't know what the > distinctions are between Chicago, Chicago Heights, and Grove. Chicago Heights is down in my neighborhood-- "da sout' side" as they say around here... This is a fairly small town, about 25 miles due south of the city, just west of the Indiana border. It's an area that had a lot of steel and heavy manufacturing at one time, but about all that's left now is a Ford plant (and I believe that's slated to close). Grove, OTOH, I have never heard of. There are lots of cities named "Grove" in the Chicago area (Buffalo, Downers, Morton, Elk, etc), but nothing with *just* "Grove". My guess is this is some sort of township or neighborhood that was incorporated into Chicago. There's a bunch of businesses called "Grove Something-or-Other" in one south side neighborhood I know of, but I always thought it had to do with Cottage Grove Avenue (a major thoroughfare through the area). I'll poke around and see if I can turn anything up... -- Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL "He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; he who dares not is a slave" - Wm. Drummond ---- Start of Message 130015 (thread 50379) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-03 12:33:49 Subject: Re: Chicago Heights (was Re: [oldtools] OLD Forge Gloat) Hi Ralph & All, Google Knows All!! I plug Canedy-Otto into it and find out that they were in Chicago Heights rather than Chicago proper and that they did indeed make blacksmith tools. So I'm now thinking my prior guess about them might not be as much of a longshot as I'd then thought. Best Wishes, Bob ++++ End of thread 50379 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50380 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130013 (thread 50380) ---- From: Ted Shuck Date: 2004-03-03 11:27:05 Subject: Heading east for a week I can't believe it's that time already, but GIT #1 is a junior in high school and is ready to take his spring break to look at potential places to spend four years of his life. So... We are headed east for a week, March 20-27 to get some idea of where he would be going. This looks to involve a lot of driving between Baltimore, MD and Amherst, MA. Although about 95% of this time will be spent driving, touring campuses, and sleeping, I was hoping I might find some "Old Tool Haunts" along the way. If anybody has some suggestions, I'd really appreciate it. Coming from old tool heck in Denver, anything is sure to look like heaven to me. Thanks, Ted ++++ End of thread 50380 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50381 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130016 (thread 50381) ---- From: "Jason Knight" Date: 2004-03-03 12:41:51 Subject: Greetings and embarrassing newby question Hello all, I've been lurking for quite a while, reading the archive and pestering Chris Swingley with a few questions off list, and sooner or later, may even submit a bio. I've got lots of questions, but the one I'll put out there today is one that swmbo asked the other day as I was scraping away at a piece of rust my Pop swears was a saw: Why don't you just buy a new one? I had an easy answer for this one, I was cleaning up a saw that was my Dad's, that he thinks may have been his dad's or grand dad's. But then (when she wasn't looking) I did a quick browse of the web and didn't see a whole lot of hand saws being sold as new. Do they truly "not make 'em like they used to", or is it such a niche market that you don't readily find decent hand tools, or are the $10 saws from Sears or the Depot perfectly fine, just devoid of character and personality, or am I not looking in the right places? I'm running out of my Pop's old tools to fix up and I'm going to need justification for bringing home any more old ones. Jason ---- Start of Message 130018 (thread 50381) ---- From: "Pete Bergstrom" Date: 2004-03-03 12:30:15 Subject: Re: Greetings and embarrassing newby question "Jason Knight" wrote: > Hello all, > I've been lurking for quite a while, reading the archive and pestering > Chris Swingley with a few questions off list, and sooner or later, may > even submit a bio. I've got lots of questions, but the one I'll put out > there today is one that swmbo asked the other day as I was scraping away > at a piece of rust my Pop swears was a saw: > > Why don't you just buy a new one? > > I had an easy answer for this one, I was cleaning up a saw that was my > Dad's, that he thinks may have been his dad's or grand dad's. But then > (when she wasn't looking) I did a quick browse of the web and didn't see a > whole lot of hand saws being sold as new. Do they truly "not make 'em like > they used to", or is it such a niche market that you don't readily find > decent hand tools, or are the $10 saws from Sears or the Depot perfectly > fine, just devoid of character and personality, or am I not looking in the > right places? I'm running out of my Pop's old tools to fix up and I'm > going to need justification for bringing home any more old ones. I've tried new panel saws, and they're ok for hacking off pieces of 2x4s. Around here (St. Paul, Minnesota), it's pretty easy to find panel saws in very good shape (if there's any rust at all, it's either complete or a couple of tiny spots) for at most a couple of dollars each. Good steel- or brass-backed dovetail, tenon and carcase saws are a different matter. I found a couple of 12-15" backsaws a few years ago and was happy to pay $30 each. I still use them a lot and expect they'll last for my heirs. I bought a LN Independence dovetail saw and wouldn't give it up for anything. I plan to buy a LN tenon saw this spring - they're that good. Pete ---- Start of Message 130023 (thread 50381) ---- From: kjworz@c... Date: 2004-03-03 19:07:07 Subject: Re: Greetings and embarrassing newby question Nope. They DON'T make me like they used to. Not the stuff you get at Home Despot or Sears. While metallurgy is more advanced and they COULD make some really great saw steel that'll saw circles around the old guys', they DON'T put that steel in your brand new $20 saw. They don't double-taper-grind new saw steel. It's all one thickness on the POS new saw. And no one with a lignum hammer is doing the highly skilled work of "Blocking" the blade, to be sure it's not too stiff, nor too wobbly. Ever tried to ring a tone off a new saw and compare to the sound of an old saw? Check out the Disstonian Institute for more info. Below is a link to the Institutes preservation of a 1907 factory tour http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/saw_works.html -- -Chris Schwartz, Ex-Brewer Stealth #97 Silver Spring, MD I've got lots of questions, but the one I'll put out > there today is one that swmbo asked the other day as I was scraping > away at a piece of rust my Pop swears was a saw: > > Why don't you just buy a new one? > > I had an easy answer for this one, I was cleaning up a saw that was my > Dad's, that he thinks may have been his dad's or grand dad's. But then > (when she wasn't looking) I did a quick browse of the web and didn't > see a whole lot of hand saws being sold as new. Do they truly "not > make 'em like they used to", ---- Start of Message 130031 (thread 50381) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-03 16:34:14 Subject: Re: Greetings and embarrassing newby question >I had an easy answer for this one, I was cleaning up a saw that was my >Dad's, that he thinks may have been his dad's or grand dad's. But then >(when she wasn't looking) I did a quick browse of the web and didn't see a >whole lot of hand saws being sold as new. Do they truly "not make 'em like >they used to", or is it such a niche market that you don't readily find >decent hand tools, or are the $10 saws from Sears or the Depot perfectly >fine, just devoid of character and personality, or am I not looking in the >right places? I'm running out of my Pop's old tools to fix up and I'm >going to need justification for bringing home any more old ones. Last time I looked, what is marketed as being a quality full size hand saw (I don't agree) was 62 $US. It's really ugly and I don't see how they can get away with saying the handle is comfortable. If Lie-Nielsen and others make them, they're surely a lot more than that. I've never paid more than 7 $US for an old handsaw, perfectly staight with a really nicely carved handle, and I have over 50 of them (I'm not sure how that happened, but I think there's some sort of virus being transmitted through oldtools). Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130038 (thread 50381) ---- From: "Greg Peters" Date: 2004-03-03 21:47:25 Subject: Re: Greetings and embarrassing newby question I've never paid more than 7 $US for an old handsaw, perfectly staight with a really nicely carved handle, and I have over 50 of them (I'm not sure how that happened, but I think there's some sort of virus being transmitted through oldtools). Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) Paul, it is a virus--I have contracted it too, and there is no known cure. Should one ever become available, I will make sure SWMBO doesn't find out. greg ---- Start of Message 130041 (thread 50381) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-03 23:32:09 Subject: re: Greetings and embarrassing newby question What they said. A really good quality saw that is worth the effort to file and re-file is gonna set you way back, and I don't think that many of those are double beveled. This allows for less set in the teeth making for a cleaner and easier cut. Backless old Disstons are much cheaper than the cheapies at Sears, HD etc, and they ARE worth the effort of rehabbing and lasting a couple of lifetimes. Disston backsaws, I guess being more popular with the tailed tool people, cost you a bit more, well, quite a bit more on e-bay at least. But again, they are worth the extra money and the effort. Besides, the craftsman of yore left some of their skills along with their sweat in these saws. I just but a Disston Backsaw that is in the neighborhood of 130 years old. Still don't know if I will use it, but I'm sure gonna make it useable. Pick up one of these saws and you can almost feel the history in it. Tune it and clean it up, and cut a piece of wood with it. There's just somethin there. ---- Start of Message 130076 (thread 50381) ---- From: traviswa@u... Date: 2004-03-04 02:53:25 Subject: Re: Greetings and embarrassing newby question > even submit a bio. I've got lots of questions, but the one I'll put > out there today is one that swmbo asked the other day as I was > scraping away at a piece of rust my Pop swears was a saw: > > Why don't you just buy a new one? Jason, That's an excellent Q. Around here (Brisbane, AU), anyhow, I hadn't had much luck finding used saws at antique stores (and I hadn't yet found flea markets...). TRIED to buy a decent used saw at the local Borg. All they stocked were the $15-$30 "disposable" panel saws, with teeth that were neither rip nor crosscut. Thppt! A few weeks later, hit my first post-handtool epiphany flea market. Found a slightly rusty crosscut for around five bucks. Not a famous brand -- but a WOODEN handle (not some orange plastic thing). And they were REAL crosscut teeth. That's why. :) --Travis ---- Start of Message 130106 (thread 50381) ---- From: Ren Tescher Date: 2004-03-04 10:39:56 Subject: Re: Greetings and embarrassing newby question Greetings Jason, If you compare the handles of an old saw and a new Borg saw, you may find the old saw is more comfortable. It was shaped to be used all the live long day, wheraas a newer saw would only be used to cut a 2x4 or two before the user decided they 'needed' a tailed one. Yes, it is kinda strange, here we live in the Age of Ergonomics and a 150 year old saw has a more comfortable handle! Ren Tescher Pine Island, MN dona nobis pacem ++++ End of thread 50381 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50382 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130019 (thread 50382) ---- From: "martin" Date: 2004-03-03 13:22:15 Subject: re: chicago heights Canedy-otto mfg Chicago Heights ILL,thats what's on my drill press im restoring (see link).They made very heavy duty equipment drill press post mount floor mount and many blacksmith item forge etc. http://mysite.verizon.net/vze21z3z ++++ End of thread 50382 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50383 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130022 (thread 50383) ---- From: "Robert Ferris" Date: 2004-03-03 14:05:07 Subject: Milwaukee Rust Hunting I'm going to be in Milwaukee for the next 3 days. If I have the time I'd like to do some rust hunting. Does anyone have any recommendations? Thanks, Bob ____________________________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.l- ycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?S- RC=lycos10 ++++ End of thread 50383 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50384 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130027 (thread 50384) ---- From: "Greg Peters" Date: 2004-03-03 20:29:04 Subject: Shoulder cuts on tenons Gents, I was wondering if I could get some input on how a Galoot would make a crisp shoulder cut(s) for a M & T joint? I've done this before, using a zero set fine tooth x-cut panel saw and a jig to hold the work; though I couldn't help thinking the collective wisdom here might have a better solution. The jig I used was during a class I took, so the jig isn't mine, nor do I have the plans. Hence the query. An aside: the word "eyeballing" should never be used in a sentence with "cutting tenon shoulders". DAMHIKT Greg ---- Start of Message 130028 (thread 50384) ---- From: "Robert Fortier" Date: 2004-03-03 16:05:41 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons When I cut shoulder on a tenon, I often start the cut with my cross-cut = saw along a small square. This way I'm sure that I am 90 deg on the cut = and I eliminate mistakes. I know that this procedure might affect the = teeth of the saw, but you cloud easily put a shim , say 1/8 thick, under = the square, so it doesnt touch the teeth of the saw.=20 Bob in Sherbrooke, Province of Qu=C3=A9bec -----Message d'origine----- De : Greg Peters [mailto:rgpeters@m...] Envoy=C3=A9 : 3 mars, 2004 15:29 =C3=80 : oldtools Objet : [oldtools] Shoulder cuts on tenons Gents, I was wondering if I could get some input on how a Galoot would make a = crisp shoulder cut(s) for a M & T joint? I've done this before, using a zero set fine tooth x-cut panel saw and a = jig to hold the work; though I couldn't help thinking the collective = wisdom here might have a better solution. The jig I used was during a = class I took, so the jig isn't mine, nor do I have the plans. Hence the = query. An aside: the word "eyeballing" should never be used in a sentence with = "cutting tenon shoulders". DAMHIKT Greg ---- Start of Message 130030 (thread 50384) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-03 14:10:08 Subject: Re: Shoulder cuts on tenons I usually mark the line with a cutting gauge or a marking knife. Then I use the corner of a chisel to turn that knife cut into a little groove on the waste side of the line. Then I start a cross-cut backsaw (or my little Dozuki if it is a small tenon) in that groove. The groove is just big enough for the points of the teeth on the non-waste side of the saw to register against. Works pretty well. I think it came to me from Tage Frid's book. The tricky part for me is getting a clean cut on the two shoulders perpendicular to the one I am cutting - especially if I forget to use my dominant eye. Any drift and there's a gap in the joint. >>> "Greg Peters" 03/03/2004 1:29:04 PM >>> Gents, I was wondering if I could get some input on how a Galoot would make a crisp shoulder cut(s) for a M & T joint? I've done this before, using a zero set fine tooth x-cut panel saw and a jig to hold the work; though I couldn't help thinking the collective wisdom here might have a better solution. The jig I used was during a class I took, so the jig isn't mine, nor do I have the plans. Hence the query. An aside: the word "eyeballing" should never be used in a sentence with "cutting tenon shoulders". DAMHIKT Greg ---- Start of Message 130037 (thread 50384) ---- From: "S. Micah Salb" Date: 2004-03-03 17:13:41 Subject: Re: Shoulder cuts on tenons I'm completely with Blake here. I'll just add, though, that there is a reason they make shoulder planes. I score my cut VERY deeply with a good marking knife (I have a beautiful turned Cocobolo layout knife). That helps a lot. And then the chisel bit. OR I'll just use the knife and twist it a bit, which does the same thing. It also avoids jagging-up the line with the corners of the chisel. But, again, you probably should plan to use the shoulder plane to make a nice, crisp, straight, perpendicular shoulder. -Micah Salb Washington, D.C. http://www.supertool.com/layknife.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blake Ashley" To: "oldtools" Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shoulder cuts on tenons > I usually mark the line with a cutting gauge or a marking knife. Then I > use the corner of a chisel to turn that knife cut into a little groove > on the waste side of the line. Then I start a cross-cut backsaw (or my > little Dozuki if it is a small tenon) in that groove. The groove is > just big enough for the points of the teeth on the non-waste side of the > saw to register against. Works pretty well. I think it came to me from > Tage Frid's book. The tricky part for me is getting a clean cut on the > two shoulders perpendicular to the one I am cutting - especially if I > forget to use my dominant eye. Any drift and there's a gap in the > joint. > > >>> "Greg Peters" 03/03/2004 1:29:04 PM >>> > Gents, > > I was wondering if I could get some input on how a Galoot would make a > crisp shoulder cut(s) for a M & T joint? > > I've done this before, using a zero set fine tooth x-cut panel saw and > a jig to hold the work; though I couldn't help thinking the collective > wisdom here might have a better solution. The jig I used was during a > class I took, so the jig isn't mine, nor do I have the plans. Hence the > query. > > An aside: the word "eyeballing" should never be used in a sentence > with "cutting tenon shoulders". DAMHIKT > > Greg > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130045 (thread 50384) ---- From: Johnny Johnson Date: 2004-03-03 19:54:30 Subject: Re: Shoulder cuts on tenons At 08:29 PM 3/3/2004 +0000, Greg Peters wrote: >I was wondering if I could get some input on how a Galoot would make a >crisp shoulder cut(s) for a M & T joint? Hi Greg, I certainly wouldn't own up to doing it but - I expect a quick, accurate way would be to use something like a Stanley #244 miter box. Those types of boxes have depth stops that you could set to control the depth of the cut and you could clamp another stop in place to locate the cuts. I bet you could make some real nice shoulders that way if you had the miter box tuned to make accurate 90 degree cuts. Later, Johnny __________________________ Johnny Johnson Lilburn, GA mailto:jjohnso4@c... ---- Start of Message 130054 (thread 50384) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-03 22:15:30 Subject: Re: Shoulder cuts on tenons Hi Blake, Have you tried the 28 step golf swing? >I usually mark the line with a cutting gauge or a marking knife. Then I >use the corner of a chisel to turn that knife cut into a little groove >on the waste side of the line. Then I start a cross-cut backsaw (or my >little Dozuki if it is a small tenon) in that groove. The groove is >just big enough for the points of the teeth on the non-waste side of the >saw to register against. Works pretty well. I think it came to me from >Tage Frid's book. The tricky part for me is getting a clean cut on the >two shoulders perpendicular to the one I am cutting - especially if I >forget to use my dominant eye. Any drift and there's a gap in the >joint. > ---- Start of Message 130072 (thread 50384) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-03-04 08:08:50 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons : -----Original Message----- : From: Blake Ashley [mailto:Blake.Ashley@t...] : Sent: 03 March 2004 21:10 : To: oldtools : Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shoulder cuts on tenons : : : I usually mark the line with a cutting gauge or a marking : knife. Then I : use the corner of a chisel to turn that knife cut into a little groove : on the waste side of the line. Given a good deep knife line, I wonder whether the oft-recommended chisel enhancement is truly necessary? Having recourse to my web site (yet again, some might say?) - Marking Out Notes - Why Use a Marking Knife, the fourth pic down shows that as the kerf is started, the wood breaks away to automatically form a shoulder against which the saw can register. Having tried the chisel dodge a few times, I fear that I've done more harm than good, though of course others will have had greater success. The problem from my point of view is that it seems to be based on the assumption that the entire length of the saw edge is placed in the groove and one tries to progress from this point. The snag is that it is quite easy for the saw to jump out and scar the shoulder. I think that one will have greater control if the kerf is started at the far end of the line with the saw handle slightly raised. This starts a groove that forms a pivot point for the saw. As the hand is lowered one can inspect the progress of the kerf, making minute adjustments as one proceeds. If one does go astray, it is more likely that this will be towards the waste side of the line, whereon inspection of the witness marks will show what remedy is required. Jeff, who reckons that real woodworkers start sawcuts with a forward stroke. -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 130073 (thread 50384) ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-03-04 09:45:52 Subject: Re: Shoulder cuts on tenons Greg Peters wrote: > Gents, > > I was wondering if I could get some input on how a Galoot would make a > crisp shoulder cut(s) for a M & T joint? http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_i- d=84900&submit_thread=1#message (here's the earlier thread referred to) http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.e- du/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_id=79355&submit_thread=1#message For a closer approach to perfection, cut *near* the marked line, and plane to the line with your expensive shoulder plane. Takes longer, needs more tools. BugBear ---- Start of Message 130100 (thread 50384) ---- From: "S. Micah Salb" Date: 2004-03-04 11:09:22 Subject: Re: Shoulder cuts on tenons > I think that one will have greater control if the kerf is started at the > far end of the line with the saw handle slightly raised. This starts a The only problem with doing this is that it increases the likelihood that your shoulder line won't be straight; you might START at 90 degrees to the edge, but when you lower the saw to cut the entire line, you might end up very slightly off that, causing a curve in your shoulder. > Jeff, who reckons that real woodworkers start sawcuts with a forward > stroke. I've heard this before --- notably, by the way, on Eddie Sirotich's site --- but I'VE not accomplished it successfully! -Micah ---- Start of Message 130125 (thread 50384) ---- From: "P J McBride" Date: 2004-03-05 09:22:34 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons GG's I posted a note about the Bob Lynn woodworking tool museum, and his book = *Woodwork, my first 70 years*which has some fantastic tips. I have taken the liberty of relating word for word below his recommended = method for this job. I have tried this, and at first found it a little = difficult but persevered and now like it. The key for me was to go at it = slowly...I got good results. Jigs have their place...I love them in some applications, but they can = significantly slow the development of fluency with your hand tools. =20 Regards, Peter In Melbourne, Aust. CUTTING A SHOULDER WITH A TENON SAW, Bob Lynn. The mark must be made with a fine cutting knife. A pencil mark or = scratch will not do. For a right-handed person the shoulder is always to = the left and the waste to the right. The wood should be clamped firmly = to the bench and the saw must at all times be kept plumb or square to = the face. Cutting the shoulder under, or slightly out of square, so that = only the top point will fit is cheating and is not allowed. Start the cut carefully at a point furthest from the body, leaving the = cutting knife mark just in place on the left side. Enter only the depth = of the teeth. Keep pressure to the left with the right index finger and = gradually cut towards the body until the full width of the cut is = complete, but still only to the depth of the teeth. By applying pressure = to the right index finger and still keeping the saw plumb, with slight = forward and back movement, the left hand face of the blade is kept in = perfect contact with the cutting knife mark. The right side of the blade = will show a gap equal to the amount of set of teeth projecting beyond = one face of the blade, because that same amount on the left side is = right under the mark. Still keeping plumb, continue the cut until the correct depth is = reached. The basic point to remember is that the blade is not kept = central in the saw cut but pressed to the shoulder side of the cut. ---- Start of Message 130158 (thread 50384) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-03-05 08:21:18 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons : -----Original Message----- : From: S. Micah Salb [mailto:ssalb@l...] : Sent: 04 March 2004 16:09 : To: oldtools : Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shoulder cuts on tenons : : : > I think that one will have greater control if the kerf is : started at the : > far end of the line with the saw handle slightly raised. : This starts a : : The only problem with doing this is that it increases the : likelihood that : your shoulder line won't be straight; you might START at 90 : degrees to the : edge, but when you lower the saw to cut the entire line, you : might end up : very slightly off that, causing a curve in your shoulder. The trick is (for right-handers) is to start with the hand very slightly to the right of where it should be. As the kerf progresses, on automatically (I hope!) re-adjusts so that the kerf does not run over to the other side of the line. I think that one problem for the tyro is that the saw is used with too much anxiety, pressure applied in the wrong places and directios with half-frozen muscles so that a wrong kind of control is exerted. This prevents the saw sensitively drifting against the shoulder formed by the deep knife line. This, I fear, is a bit waffly but I hope you get the drift (pun not excused!). : : > Jeff, who reckons that real woodworkers start sawcuts with a forward : > stroke. : : I've heard this before --- notably, by the way, on Eddie : Sirotich's site --- : but I'VE not accomplished it successfully! As in over areas of life, deftness of touch is the answer. A low angle of attack also helps. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 130162 (thread 50384) ---- From: "Andrew F in Australia" Date: 2004-03-05 08:47:20 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons Greg (?) asked how to get a crisp clean shoulder on a tenon: The answer from my training is 1. define the shoulder with a good marking knife line 2. cut to that line accurately, leaving the clear knife-cut outer perimeter of the knife mark behind, giving a crisp shoulder. 2a. goes without saying that the saw cut needs to be perfectly square 3. Use a shoulder plane if and only if you drift with the saw. As with everything, it's easy when you have had the practice. But a real bear to learn. Cheers, Andrew ---- Start of Message 130198 (thread 50384) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-05 08:57:18 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons But if there is set in the saw and the saw drifts against the shoulder, doesn't it undercut the shoulder? >>> "Jeff Gorman" 03/05/2004 1:21:18 AM >>> : -----Original Message----- : From: S. Micah Salb [mailto:ssalb@l...] : Sent: 04 March 2004 16:09 : To: oldtools : Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shoulder cuts on tenons : : : > I think that one will have greater control if the kerf is : started at the : > far end of the line with the saw handle slightly raised. : This starts a : : The only problem with doing this is that it increases the : likelihood that : your shoulder line won't be straight; you might START at 90 : degrees to the : edge, but when you lower the saw to cut the entire line, you : might end up : very slightly off that, causing a curve in your shoulder. The trick is (for right-handers) is to start with the hand very slightly to the right of where it should be. As the kerf progresses, on automatically (I hope!) re-adjusts so that the kerf does not run over to the other side of the line. I think that one problem for the tyro is that the saw is used with too much anxiety, pressure applied in the wrong places and directios with half-frozen muscles so that a wrong kind of control is exerted. This prevents the saw sensitively drifting against the shoulder formed by the deep knife line. This, I fear, is a bit waffly but I hope you get the drift (pun not excused!). : : > Jeff, who reckons that real woodworkers start sawcuts with a forward : > stroke. : : I've heard this before --- notably, by the way, on Eddie : Sirotich's site --- : but I'VE not accomplished it successfully! As in over areas of life, deftness of touch is the answer. A low angle of attack also helps. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 130217 (thread 50384) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-03-06 08:00:55 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons : -----Original Message----- : From: Blake Ashley [mailto:Blake.Ashley@t...] : Sent: 05 March 2004 15:57 : To: oldtools@c...; amgron@c... : Subject: RE: [oldtools] Shoulder cuts on tenons : : : But if there is set in the saw and the saw drifts against the : shoulder, : doesn't it undercut the shoulder? Not in my experience. Depending on the wood, sometimes there is a bit of fuzz that could need trimming - see the second photo down on the 'Why Use A Marking Knife' page. The wood was Jelutong (ie very soft), selected to enable a deep knife cut to be made. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 130225 (thread 50384) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-06 10:34:41 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons Hi All, I've only been skimming the messages discusssing why saw cuts don't track straight, but it's dawned on me that some ot the info on keeping them straight might be useful to my wife. She has never been able to make a straight down cut in a loaf of bread, cake, etc.; the cut always tracks into the loaf, etc., at the bottom and leaves the top overhanging. She is so totally incapable of making a straight cut that it's become a standing joke in our family. Although she tends to cut the right side of a loaf (which seems wrong to me), she's just as crooked cutting either side. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130226 (thread 50384) ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 2004-03-06 11:34:32 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons Hi, Bob and others One of my daughters who couldn't cut bread straight got a wooden miter box to guide the knife. Trevor ---- Start of Message 130229 (thread 50384) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-06 12:40:50 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons Hi Trevor & All, Re using a miter box to slice bread. She got a thing sort of like that once - a board with rows of posts along each side. You supposedly ran the knife down between the posts to make straight cuts. However, the posts were set fairly far apart which caused two problems. The cut would still be crooked within the limits of that separation and the slices would be thicker than we desired if you moved along from one post to the next. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130261 (thread 50384) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-07 10:29:56 Subject: Re: Shoulder cuts on tenons I've found a bench hook to be useful in not only keeping the piece from moving around (no clamps necessary) but in keeping the saw vertical. If the far piece of the hook (the fence) is high enough you can cut a slot in it and use it like a miter box, or just use the end of the fence as a guide (and put a thin piece of scrap on the bench so you don't saw into it) My small sawing bench also has a high rear fence but in that case the wood being cut protrudes past the end of it and the side of the saw only rests on the end the fence on its left side. For those who don't know what a bench hook is it looks like this from the side : ___ | | | | <- fence ___________| | | | | | workpiece | | ___________________|___________|___| | | | | |___________________________________| | | | | | | <- this part goes in the vise |___| Paul Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130293 (thread 50384) ---- From: "Foster, Jim" Date: 2004-03-08 10:57:51 Subject: RE: Shoulder cuts on tenons I have a bread board that has sides with slots in it that you stick the loaf between and cut straight, even slices. But the=20 main reason people have trouble getting straight cuts is often the same as for saws: Serrated knives usually have the serrations cut from one side and are kinda like saws with uneven set. Knives serrated from both sides so the edge is symmetrical will cut straight. And a suitably sharp non serrated knife will cut fresh=20 bread straight without mushing it. Oh, and of course the other=20 consideration is which is her dominant eye .... B^)=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Trevor Robinson [mailto:robinson@b...] > Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 10:35 AM > To: oldtools > Cc: oldtools > Subject: RE: [oldtools] Shoulder cuts on tenons >=20 >=20 > Hi, Bob and others > One of my daughters who couldn't cut bread straight got a wooden > miter box to guide the knife. > Trevor ++++ End of thread 50384 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50385 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130029 (thread 50385) ---- From: "Greg Peters" Date: 2004-03-03 20:54:16 Subject: finding good homes Gents, Help me play matchmaker... A while back, I found an old Disston D-8 that had been 'retrofitted' with a handle that fit a 23 (extra bolt holes had been drilled into the D8). I still haven't found a home for that handle (it's a mahogany handle, for a D43 I think), nor have I found a handle for the blade itslef (it's pretty cruddy, the etch is gone). If anyone has an old handle that would fit a D8, let me know. By the same token, if you have a 43 whose handle is shot, drop me a line. I almost bid on a handle for the D8 which was on the Bay last weekend, but it ended up going for $10. Heck, I generally don't pay more than $10 for an entire saw--you know, the metal part included (says the addict who just picked up seven saws in two different auctions because he couldn't say no to the words 'Disston Saw Lot'!). I do have a nice saw rack, but it's full. The backsaws are homeless, the new saws are homeless--even the panel saws have 'cramped quarters'. Sigh, daddy has a saw problem. Greg ++++ End of thread 50385 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50386 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130033 (thread 50386) ---- From: "P J McBride" Date: 2004-03-04 08:59:50 Subject: Oldtool heaven in New Zealand. GG's I just put a page on my website with plenty of pictures of a place that must be tool heaven. In New Zealand there is a museum that every galoot must see before passing on to the real tool heaven. It was started by a Bob Lynn, a fantastic character in his 80's. I spent a day there last March. http://www.petermcbride.com/lynn/ I haven't seen much publicity about this place, and I know we are on the *other side of the world* from most galoots, but Bob is getting on a bit. It would be a shame not to meet him because you didn't know this place existed. I bought Bob's book there, *Woodwork, my first 70 years* it was cheap enough, and is filled with quaint stories, pictures, tricks and tips. Regards, Peter, In Melbourne, Aust just a few hours from NZ by plane. ++++ End of thread 50386 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50387 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130034 (thread 50387) ---- From: Charles Stroom Date: 2004-03-03 22:59:37 Subject: FWW index, message to Martin Gardner Martin Gardner, you sent me an email regarding the Fine Woodworking index. I replied, but my email was rejected by att.net, because my ISP seems to be on att's blacklist. I sent the message a second time, and that seemed to be OK, at least I got nothing horrible back. Did you get it? I joined this oldtools list just now (so I found out about it, although I wished that somewhere there is the info on how to send emails to the list:-). Cheers Charles Stroom email: charles@s... url: http://www.xs4all.nl/~stremen ++++ End of thread 50387 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50388 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130043 (thread 50388) ---- From: "Anthony Seo" Date: 2004-03-03 19:29:11 Subject: Distaff & the Trades I have sort of access to a database of tradesmen culled from English trade directories dating from 1766 thru the 1850's, with most of the data in the 1820 to 1850's time frame. From that data base (19336 records) there are 238 women listed (1.23% of the total). Some of the trades 2 Anchorsmiths 2 Awl Blade Makes 26 Blacksmiths 17 Braziers - Tin Workers 17 Carpenter - Builder-Joiner-Cabinet Maker 9 Coopers 3 Edge Tool Makers 1 Gimblet & Bit Maker (Gimlet) 2 Gun Barrel Makers 30 Ironmongers 3 Nail Makers 1 Plane Maker (Anne Parkes Birmingham 1839) 1 Saw Maker 1 Turner & Chairmaker 2 Turners 2 Wheelwrights Lots were involved in the Sheffield cutlery trades as well. For what it's worth Tony ---- Start of Message 130046 (thread 50388) ---- From: "P J McBride" Date: 2004-03-04 12:15:46 Subject: RE: Distaff & the Trades Tony, and GG's I have a book called... Women Silversmiths 1685 - 1845, http://crunruh.zoovy.com/product/094097911X out of print now, but an interesting insight into the women working in my industry over that period. Many entered through their husbands dying (early because of the toxicity of some of the processes), and some entering through *burnishing and polishing, engraving and apprenticeship* Goldsmiths' guild Registry shows 19 young women completed their apprenticeships 1614 - 1845, but an additional 142 were apprenticed. Not a lot by any stretch, but a fact not often realised. The book has photos of some of the work done by them...open the link above and have a look. Regards, Peter In Melbourne, Australia where over the past 25 years I trained 4 young women apprentice jewellery makers...(he states proudly) ---- Start of Message 130264 (thread 50388) ---- From: "john" Date: 2004-03-07 09:59:25 Subject: RE: Distaff & the Trades Honorable GGs, There have been a number of discussions over the years about women in the trades, but the info that some women actually went through silversmith apprenticeships is some of the first evidence I've seen that they were doing the work in this trade. I've looked around a good deal for evidence that there were actually female planemakers, but I have yet to see anything conclusive. A number of women took over their husbands' businesses, but I have never seen anything definitive as to whether any of them actually made planes themselves. I don't doubt that this was possible, even probable. I'm just saying I haven't seen evidence of such. Anyone have any such info? I'd love to see some. John Quinn Santa Rosa ---- Start of Message 130283 (thread 50388) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 2004-03-08 07:54:07 Subject: RE: Distaff & the Trades John Quinn wrote: >... but the info that some women actually went through >silversmith apprenticeships is some of the first evidence I've seen that >they were doing the work in this trade. > I've looked around a good deal for evidence that there were >actually female planemakers, but I have yet to see anything conclusive. >A number of women took over their husbands' businesses, but I have never >seen anything definitive as to whether any of them actually made planes >themselves. The names of three women appear in the list of planemakers' apprentices, as compiled in Appendix 3 of W. L. Goodman's _British Planemakers from 1700_: Mary Fflight apprenticed to William Cogdell, London, June 7, 1743 Sarah Fflight apprenticed to John Jennion, London, August 9, 1743 Mehetaball Granford apprenticed to Thomas Granford [ii], London, 1716 Further research may well reveal additional names. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ++++ End of thread 50388 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50389 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130047 (thread 50389) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-03 18:00:55 Subject: Pewter rings On Wednesday, March 3, 2004, at 02:10 PM, Blake Ashley wrote: > How did you get those pewter rings on? They look great! > I learned this trick from Scott Grandstaff a couple of years ago. As he explained it to me: In the lathe, cut a groove in the wood about 1/4" wide and 1/4" deep. Use a couple of layers of masking tape around the groove, which will serve as the form for the liquid pewter you are going to pour in. Make a hole in the top of the tape. The masking tape will not burn when you pour in the pewter. Pewter is easy to melt with a propane torch and a tin can. I found that I like to make a small mouth out of putty around the hole in the tape so that when the liquid metal solidifies and shrinks there will be enough metal to file off and not be too low. You need to make the pewter ring about an eighth bigger in diameter than what you want it to finish at so you will have metal to cut down to size. I find that it is easy to make the groove in the wood too narrow, and this lets the pewter get bubbles in it which can't get out. You would think that molten pewter would burn the wood, but it doesn't. Let it cool by itself, no water! The solidified pewter cuts very easily with ordinary lathe tools. Scott has found a source for tin, which is what pewter actually is, at about $8 a pound. I keep an eye out for junk pewter at estate sales and fleas and get it for a lot less. You can also make inlays by undercutting the area the pewter will go into so it can't fall out. Then file it down and polish it. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130055 (thread 50389) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-03 22:14:46 Subject: Re: Pewter rings > Scott has found a source for tin, which is what pewter actually > is, at about $8 a pound. I keep an eye out for junk pewter at > estate sales and fleas and get it for a lot less. Jim, how does one identify 'pure' pewter at a flea market? I've got to try this. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130058 (thread 50389) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-03 19:35:32 Subject: Re: Pewter rings The pieces I have found were marked "Pewter" on the bottom. Actually I have to admit that if it isn't marked, I don't know how to identify it. My SWMBO can tell at a glance though, and I rely on her. Maybe somebody else can answer this better. On Wednesday, March 3, 2004, at 07:14 PM, Larry Marshall wrote: > >> Scott has found a source for tin, which is what pewter actually >> is, at about $8 a pound. I keep an eye out for junk pewter at >> estate sales and fleas and get it for a lot less. > > Jim, how does one identify 'pure' pewter at a flea market? I've got > to try this. > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130060 (thread 50389) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-03 22:48:16 Subject: Re: Pewter rings On March 3, 2004 10:35 pm, you wrote: > The pieces I have found were marked "Pewter" on the bottom. This would be a good indicator :-) > Actually I have to admit that if it isn't marked, I don't know > how to identify it. My SWMBO can tell at a glance though, and I > rely on her. Ah...a pewter sniffer in the family. My wife gets too bored with my rummaging through boxes of rust to go to flea markets with me :-) -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130061 (thread 50389) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-03 21:56:48 Subject: Re: Pewter rings It seems that every time I need materials that are hard to find, I go to http://www.mcmaster.com/ . They have Pewter along with the casting putty. Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Marshall" To: "oldtools" Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 7:14 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Pewter rings > > > Scott has found a source for tin, which is what pewter actually > > is, at about $8 a pound. I keep an eye out for junk pewter at > > estate sales and fleas and get it for a lot less. > > Jim, how does one identify 'pure' pewter at a flea market? I've got > to try this. > > -- > Cheers --- Larry Marshall > Quebec City, QC > http://www.woodnbits.com > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130094 (thread 50389) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-04 10:18:35 Subject: Re: Pewter rings Hi Larry & All, Larry asks how you identify junk pewter to melt down in the anteek shops. Unfortunately, I can tell you more about pewter than you probably want to know. Jim's answer was a very proper one - buy stuff that has "Pewter" stamped on the bottom. If it does not have that marking, it's quite possibly an older and more valuable piece that should be left for a collector. One of the oddities about pewter is that if it has that pewter marking, it isn't really (to many people) pewter; it's a variation called Britannia Metal made in the 1900s vs. earlier than that. But it will do fine for melt down purposes. Experts disagree to some extent, but the most common thinking is that "real" pewter is a mixture of tin and lead. Britannia metal has no lead; it has antimony instead. Very much like the change made to solder a few years back when the lead in it was replaced by antimony to avoid lead in the drinking water from the solder on pipe joints. Instead of melting down old "pewter", you can simply use solder - essentially the same thing but maybe mixed to be a bit softer than the "pewter" was. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130097 (thread 50389) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-04 10:47:18 Subject: Re: Pewter rings > anteek shops. Unfortunately, I can tell you more about pewter > than you probably want to know. This doesn't sound unfortunate from where I sit :-) > Jim's answer was a very proper > one - buy stuff that has "Pewter" stamped on the bottom. If it I like 'easy'. I'm best at mastering such skills. > oddities about pewter is that if it has that pewter marking, it > isn't really (to many people) pewter; it's a variation called > Britannia Metal made in the 1900s vs. earlier than that. But it > will do fine for melt down purposes. Interesting. > Experts disagree to some > extent, but the most common thinking is that "real" pewter is a > mixture of tin and lead. Britannia metal has no lead; it has > antimony instead. Ah...I'm not as dumb as I generally think I am. Last night I went to the McMaster-Carr site that Richard mentioned and found "lead-free pewter". That seemed counter to the definition of it that I knew. Thanks for clarifying this. > Instead of melting down old "pewter", you can simply use solder - > essentially the same thing but maybe mixed to be a bit softer > than the "pewter" was. Well, shazaam....might be worth a try. I feel edified. Thanks. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130101 (thread 50389) ---- From: "Bramel, Jim" Date: 2004-03-04 11:19:06 Subject: RE: Pewter rings I think I mentioned this before but - I used liquid solder=20 (from a tube). It was for a brace with the pewter rings=20 missing. The wood was wired on. I tightened the wire and=20 started squeezing the liquid solder on. I did it over a few=20 days, a layer at a time. When I finally got it on a little=20 above the wood, I started working it down. The only problem I had, was the solder kinda blended into the wood. I could have taken care of that at the start but didn't. I used=20 lacquer thinner and it took care of most of it. Jim =20 -----Original Message----- From: Larry Marshall [mailto:larry@w...]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 10:47 AM To: oldtools Subject: Re: [oldtools] Pewter rings you can simply use solder - ---- Start of Message 130103 (thread 50389) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-04 08:26:09 Subject: Re: Pewter rings Me, I just went on ebay and searched for pewter. This brings up lots of small hobby casting outfits but the radiator rebuilders offered it alot cheaper. It's all, like, 99% or more plain tin and some small additives like antimony, copper, etc. Different refiners use different recipes but the additives are so small I can't tell any difference. You could indeed use staybright or modern soft "silver" solder for plumbing, but the expense.......... The cast metal shrinks a bit when it cools so I build up the edges of the groove with a couple layers of tape first. Then, I lay a piece of greased twine (clothesline) in the groove before covering it with the masking tape. Don't stick the tape ends together but leave a bit of space. This is so you can pull the string out after you've built up at least a couple/three layers of tape on top of the string. Lately I've been building up cones of tape and drywall mud to form a small funnel for a pour spout. This gives you a bit more metal weight over the mold to push out a few more air bubbles (hate those bubbles). I also punch (or actually drill with an awl so's I don't crush the paper mold) a small air hole near the pour spout when the mud dries. Then tip it over a bit when pouring so the metal can flow around hitting the breather hole last. When I see metal peeking up through the hole I know it's made it. You want the metal pretty hot. Too cold and it won't flow well enough. I heat over a one burner propane camp stove (elegance, eh? 8^) for at least several minutes after it melts. If it scorches a toothpick right quick you're probably there. Graphite is supposed to help the metal flow better (George had better suggestions for pouring lube, but I couldn't find any of the stuff) so I'll pop a little squirt of it from a door lock lubricator tube just before I pour. I'm not sure it helps, but it doesn't hurt. Last thing you do before tipping the ladle is a quick skim of surface crud with a stick. I still haven't been able to get it to flow into fine detail crevices. Rings or anything large is pretty easy. But get it down small and there's always some trouble. Last thing I heard was to pre heat the handle (it's wood, so I figured maybe a couple hundred degrees tops) and I'm going to try that soon. I'll let you know. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130105 (thread 50389) ---- From: "Foster, Jim" Date: 2004-03-04 10:33:38 Subject: RE: Pewter rings Well, the question becomes, what is "pure?" Pewter has a lot of alloys over the years, with most of the ones used for foodstuffs being low lead, while some of the art alloys using quite a bit of lead as a = "filler."=20 You might want to try a good scrap metal yard. They may have some known alloy tin scrap. If I were making fish wackers I wouldn't care much = about the lead content, and would use any of the various alloys I have around = for bullet casting. If I were going to be handling it a lot, like for a = brace, I'd be more fussy.=20 Jim Foster A link to some pewter info: http://www.dmgovan.com/?page=3Dwhat_is >=20 >=20 > The pieces I have found were marked "Pewter" on the bottom. >=20 > Actually I have to admit that if it isn't marked, I don't=20 > know how to=20 > identify it. My SWMBO can tell at a glance though, and I rely on her. >=20 > Maybe somebody else can answer this better. >=20 > On Wednesday, March 3, 2004, at 07:14 PM, Larry Marshall wrote: >=20 > > > >> Scott has found a source for tin, which is what pewter actually > >> is, at about $8 a pound. I keep an eye out for junk pewter at > >> estate sales and fleas and get it for a lot less. > > > > Jim, how does one identify 'pure' pewter at a flea market? I've got > > to try this. > > > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA >=20 >=20 > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=3Doldtools >=20 ++++ End of thread 50389 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50390 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130049 (thread 50390) ---- From: "Chuck Zitur" Date: 2004-03-03 19:08:32 Subject: Lufkin 7146 Hi All Today I had a visit from a local antique dealer. He asked me to step out side as he had something for me in the back of his truck. There was a long hinged box marked "The Lufkin Rule Co. Saginaw Michigan" He flips open the box and inside is the largest ruler that I have ever seen. Eight feet long 3 inches wide about a 1/4 inch thick. Graudated in inches and increments of inches on both sides. Marked "Lufkin 7146" www.toolchuck.com/lufkin.jpg One end has the normal brass tip, the other has a brass tip with an upturned lip on one side as if to catch on something. The only Lufkin reference that I have doesn't list straight rulers at all. The box it is in is the original shipping container and had been shipped from Lufkin to an (unreadable) party in Lewistown, Montana. Now this is no great gloat pricewise although I didnt pay anything for it today. (I will gladly pay you Tuesday for an 8 foot rule today) (Wimpyism, Jeff) Can anyone tell me what this may have been used for? I thought maybe for surveying but the numbers are oriented the wrong way and the graduations seem too fine to be usable from a distance. Any ideas? Regards Chuck Zitur Billings, MT ---- Start of Message 130051 (thread 50390) ---- From: "Sanford Moss" Date: 2004-03-03 21:32:09 Subject: RE: Lufkin 7146 Hi Chuck & all, You said, " He flips open the >box and inside >is the largest ruler that I have ever seen. Eight feet long 3 inches wide >about a 1/4 inch >thick. Graudated in inches and increments of inches on both sides. Marked >"Lufkin 7146" >www.toolchuck.com/lufkin.jpg >One end has the normal brass tip, the other has a brass tip with an >upturned >lip >on one side as if to catch on something. The only Lufkin reference that I >have doesn't >list straight rulers at all. The box it is in is the original shipping >container and had been shipped >from Lufkin to an (unreadable) party in Lewistown, Montana. >Now this is no great gloat pricewise although I didnt pay anything for it >today. >(I will gladly pay you Tuesday for an 8 foot rule today) (Wimpyism, Jeff) >Can anyone tell me what this may have been used for? I thought maybe for >surveying but >the numbers are oriented the wrong way and the graduations seem too fine to >be >usable from a distance. >Any ideas? I have a 6 ft Lufkin rule downstairs that falls 2 feet short of yours, and is numbered 7125. Different from yours it is graduated in inches (to eighths on one side, and sixteenths on the other) in both directions on both sides. It is made of maple, and has standard brass tips on both ends. The lip on one end of yours suggests some sort of hook for grabbing an edge. I'm building a new house right now and the dry wall guys were working today, making me think yours might be a rule handy for people working with standard 8' lengths of wall board or plywood. Of course it also might be an official rule for measuring the height of NBA players, with the hook designed to fit over their (very rich) pin heads. Best regards, Sandy _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ---- Start of Message 130052 (thread 50390) ---- From: "Brian McInturff" Date: 2004-03-03 21:49:42 Subject: RE: Lufkin 7146 Maybe it was used in the paper or textile industry? Brian McInturff philatelist@e... > [Original Message] > From: Sanford Moss > To: oldtools > Date: 3/3/2004 9:33:30 PM > Subject: RE: [oldtools] Lufkin 7146 > > Hi Chuck & all, > > You said, " He flips open the > >box and inside > >is the largest ruler that I have ever seen. Eight feet long 3 inches wide > >about a 1/4 inch > >thick. Graudated in inches and increments of inches on both sides. Marked > >"Lufkin 7146" > >www.toolchuck.com/lufkin.jpg > >One end has the normal brass tip, the other has a brass tip with an > >upturned > >lip > >on one side as if to catch on something. The only Lufkin reference that I > >have doesn't > >list straight rulers at all. The box it is in is the original shipping > >container and had been shipped > >from Lufkin to an (unreadable) party in Lewistown, Montana. > >Now this is no great gloat pricewise although I didnt pay anything for it > >today. > >(I will gladly pay you Tuesday for an 8 foot rule today) (Wimpyism, Jeff) > >Can anyone tell me what this may have been used for? I thought maybe for > >surveying but > >the numbers are oriented the wrong way and the graduations seem too fine to > >be > >usable from a distance. > >Any ideas? > > I have a 6 ft Lufkin rule downstairs that falls 2 feet short of yours, and > is numbered 7125. Different from yours it is graduated in inches (to > eighths on one side, and sixteenths on the other) in both directions on both > sides. It is made of maple, and has standard brass tips on both ends. > > The lip on one end of yours suggests some sort of hook for grabbing an edge. > I'm building a new house right now and the dry wall guys were working > today, making me think yours might be a rule handy for people working with > standard 8' lengths of wall board or plywood. Of course it also might be an > official rule for measuring the height of NBA players, with the hook > designed to fit over their (very rich) pin heads. > > Best regards, > Sandy > > _________________________________________________________________ > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! > http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130059 (thread 50390) ---- From: Brian Pennington Date: 2004-03-04 05:48:39 Subject: Re: Lufkin 7146 At 04:08 AM 3/4/2004, Chuck Zitur wrote: >is the largest ruler that I have ever seen. Eight feet long 3 inches wide >about a 1/4 inch >thick. Graudated in inches and increments of inches on both sides. Marked >"Lufkin 7146" >www.toolchuck.com/lufkin.jpg Chuck and GGs, It is a glass cutter's rule which can be found in Lufkin's #11 General Catalog and was offered in nine sizes ranging from 36" to 144" ( just eight more to get a complete set). Online scans of this catalog can be found at: http://www.roseantiquetools.com/id96.html Best, Brian ---- Start of Message 130062 (thread 50390) ---- From: "Anthony Seo" Date: 2004-03-03 23:06:24 Subject: Re: Lufkin 7146 > hinged box marked "The Lufkin Rule Co. Saginaw Michigan" He flips open the > box and inside > is the largest ruler that I have ever seen. Eight feet long 3 inches wide > about a 1/4 inch > thick. Graudated in inches and increments of inches on both sides. Marked > "Lufkin 7146" Pretty much what I have been told, is that these larger Lufkin rules were either for glazier's or garment work. The hook at the end would lead me to believe that it is for glass work. FWIW Tony ---- Start of Message 130129 (thread 50390) ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-03-04 15:48:29 Subject: Re: Lufkin 7146 A while back Chuck Zitur found a long Lufkin: > Hi All > Today I had a visit from a local antique dealer. He asked me to step out > side as he had something for me in the back of his truck. There was a long > hinged box marked "The Lufkin Rule Co. Saginaw Michigan" He flips open the > box and inside > is the largest ruler that I have ever seen. Eight feet long 3 inches wide > about a 1/4 inch > thick. Graudated in inches and increments of inches on both sides. Marked > "Lufkin 7146" Chuck, I don't know how long Lufkin's largest rule was, but I have a Lufkin #7166 that is 12 feet long. It has two sections, and telescopes down to a little over 6 feet for storage. It was used to measure openings for installing things like kitchen cabinets. You slide it out until it touches cabinets (or other obstructions) at each end, and then read the distance at the center of the rule. Unfortunately, mine didn't come with a box. :-) Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ++++ End of thread 50390 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50391 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130057 (thread 50391) ---- From: Ted Shuck Date: 2004-03-03 21:27:00 Subject: RE: oldtools digest: March 02, 2004 At 08:29 PM 3/3/2004 +0000, Greg Peters wrote: >I was wondering if I could get some input on how a Galoot would make a >crisp shoulder cut(s) for a M & T joint? And Johnny Johnson replied: >I certainly wouldn't own up to doing it but - I expect a quick, accurate >way would be to use something like a Stanley #244 miter box. That's what I have done if I need really accurate shoulder cuts. I use my Stanley #358. I have had problems getting it adjusted well enough to do really accurate molding cuts with 3 - 4" moldings, but for a 1/2" tenon shoulder, it is pretty good. It makes it easy to align all four sides to get a nice continuous shoulder without steps. If anybody has any suggestions on tuning this miter box better for cutting miters for moldings, I'd love to hear them. Ted ++++ End of thread 50391 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50392 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130069 (thread 50392) ---- From: paul r morin Date: 2004-03-04 00:13:57 Subject: 71 Router Planes (and depth gages) Sorry that this is coming in late, I have around 4000 unread oldtools messages, so I've been spot perusing. I happened to go through part of the discussion on the 71 / o71 Router planes, and the comments about the depth gauges. I have a o71, and someone was kind enough to send me a copy of the manual(s) for both the Record and Stanley router planes. The version I have is one of the newer ones, with the arched throat. The depth stop with the shoe can be placed to basically turn it into a "closed mouth" router by setting the shoe level with the base. As for the depth gauge, I didn't quite understand the way to use if from the original discussion thread/post. I also couldn't quite figure it out just looking at it either - just not obvious to me I guess. BUT this made more sense to me: The depth gauge and shoe can be used in two ways: When detached from the router it forms a handy depth guage for testing, say, a series of blind mortices which is is desired shall be the same depth. To this case the shoe (which forms the stop) will be so atached that the thinner end of the guage can be inserted into the mortices (or similar holes or recesses). When used in conjuction with the router, the router is sen up asn an open-mouth router. The thin end of the gauge pointing downwards is then inserted into it's hole and pushed through until its end projects the desired depth below the sole. The shoe is then attached above the pillar, securing the shoe thumbscrew, but leaving thumbsrew M (the one on the plane body that holds it firmly in place) slack so that th gauge is free to move upwards. Whilst routering is being done, the shoe will not fall on to the pillar until the desired depth is reached. As soon as it touches the pillar, the worker will know that he has gone deep enough. If anyone has any interest in either set of scanned instructions, please ping me offline, and REMOVE OLDTOOLS from the subject, or it will be sorted into a folder along with the rest of the messages I can't get to at the moment. Hope this helps someone else. -- It is hard to fight against anger, for a man will buy revenge with his soul. - Heraclities, 500BC Paul R Morin Calgary, Alberta, Canada www.cranialstorage.com/wood ++++ End of thread 50392 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50393 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130070 (thread 50393) ---- From: paul r morin Date: 2004-03-04 00:24:43 Subject: 71 Router Planes (and depth gages) followup OAs a side note, stanley's manual says: Depth Guage Rod- this Rod, fastened by means of Thumb Screw, may be used to control the depth of each cut, preventing the Cutter from taking an excessive cut which would be inconvenient . For example, a cut 1/16" deep can be cut repeatedly while still allowing the Cutter to be set for the final depth of cut. One end of the Rod is of small diameter for following in a small groove. I assume that rather than move the blade (Record's suggestion) every time you make a cut until the depth stop hits, you would set the blade and move the depth gauge so it was continuously shorter and finally didn't make any contact. I think they're both finicky, frankly, but can imagine if you're trying to cut a curved dado, easier than chiseling perhaps. Just more info. > > If anyone has any interest in either set of scanned instructions, > please ping me offline, and REMOVE OLDTOOLS from the subject, or it > will be sorted into a folder along with the rest of the messages I > can't get to at the moment. > > Hope this helps someone else. > > > - -- It is hard to fight against anger, for a man will buy revenge with his soul. - Heraclities, 500BC Paul R Morin Calgary, Alberta, Canada www.cranialstorage.com/wood ---- Start of Message 130078 (thread 50393) ---- From: newworldmagic@c... Date: 2004-03-04 12:04:17 Subject: Re: 71 Router Planes (and depth gages) followup The method that I've always used is to set the blade to the final depth, set the depth gauge so control the size of the bite (thickness of shaving), then just worked the groove with the body of the plane at an angle. When you get to the right depth, the plane is sitting flat, which makes it easy to get nice clean bottoms. Until you get near the bottom of the groove, the cut can be a bit ragged, but Ialways pre-score the sides anyway, and once you've got a little bit of depth, the sides come out OK..... YMMV --JD > OAs a side note, stanley's manual says: > > Depth Guage Rod- this Rod, fastened by means of Thumb Screw, may be > used to control the depth of each cut, preventing the Cutter from > taking an excessive cut which would be inconvenient . For example, a > cut 1/16" deep can be cut repeatedly while still allowing the Cutter > to be set for the final depth of cut. One end of the Rod is of small > diameter for following in a small groove. > > I assume that rather than move the blade (Record's suggestion) every > time you make a cut until the depth stop hits, you would set the blade > and move the depth gauge so it was continuously shorter and finally > didn't make any contact. > > I think they're both finicky, frankly, but can imagine if you're > trying to cut a curved dado, easier than chiseling perhaps. > > Just more info. > > > > > If anyone has any interest in either set of scanned instructions, > > please ping me offline, and REMOVE OLDTOOLS from the subject, or it > > will be sorted into a folder along with the rest of the messages I > > can't get to at the moment. > > > > Hope this helps someone else. > > > > > > - > > > -- > It is hard to fight against anger, for a man will buy revenge with > his soul. > - Heraclities, 500BC > > > Paul R Morin Calgary, Alberta, Canada www.cranialstorage.com/wood > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To > unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130149 (thread 50393) ---- From: Darrell & Kathy Date: 2004-03-04 22:50:12 Subject: Re: 71 Router Planes (and depth gages) followup Paul said, regarding router planes, > I think they're both finicky, frankly, but can imagine if you're > trying to cut a curved dado, easier than chiseling perhaps. Yes, they do make it easier to clean up and deepen a curved groove or dado. I roughed this out with a brad point drill and a scribing gouge, followed by the router. http://www3.sympatico.ca/larchmont/walnut_sleigh_2.jpg -- Darrell Oakville ON Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User ++++ End of thread 50393 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50394 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130079 (thread 50394) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-04 07:44:01 Subject: cutting with modern handsaw > hadn't yet found flea markets...). TRIED to buy a decent used > saw at the local Borg. All they stocked were the $15-$30 > "disposable" panel saws, with teeth that were neither rip nor > crosscut. Thppt! It occurred to me that some of you might know how to use these saws. I don't. Now I realize that the best advise is to simply avoid them but a month or so ago I decided that my daughter needed a pint-sized saw of her own and since she isn't very skilled and isn't cutting precisely, I did the silly thing of buying one of those small borg saws, with the long pointy teeth. I gave it to her and she tried...really she did. She just couldn't cut any wood with it. So I tried and the results were nearly the same. It was more like scraping a slot than cutting one and it was nearly impossible to start the process. Anyone have any insight into how these saws are supposed to be used? As scraper blades? As paint canvases? Shims? > That's why. :) The differences are truly amazing. It's no wonder most people don't think you can cut anything without a circular saw. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130098 (thread 50394) ---- From: Kirk Eppler Date: 2004-03-04 08:00:58 Subject: Re: cutting with modern handsaw I have a Craftsman "quiksilver", which sound like what you mention, with Japanese style teeth. Great saw, cuts really fine, but not neccessarily speedy. Good multi purpose saw. Was able to hack off 4x4's faster than the neighbor could get his chainsaw to start. Slow to start, but really fine when you find the angle and rhythm it needs. If you've got some other "stamped" saw, where the teeth are simply stamped instead of sharpened, good luck. I got one with a cheapie miter box when doing a project for a friend who lived away from my tools. Bought a file, and sharpened it to reasonable in a few minutes, cut tons better, but did not compete with a Tom Law saw, or even a self sharpened Disston That'd be sacrilege, sending Tom a stamped saw. It'd probably cost lots to fix, since he'd probably throw it out and send you something else instead Larry Marshall wrote about Borg Saws: > It occurred to me that some of you might know how to use these saws. > I don't. Now I realize that the best advise is to simply avoid > them but a month or so ago I decided that my daughter needed a > pint-sized saw of her own and since she isn't very skilled and > isn't cutting precisely, I did the silly thing of buying one of those > small borg saws, with the long pointy teeth. -- Kirk Eppler Global Mfg Science and Technology Eppler.Kirk@g... ---- Start of Message 130116 (thread 50394) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-04 20:13:51 Subject: re: cutting with modern handsaw I would think that you could make a semi cutter out of one by fileing it yourself. Since most come with way too much set to begin with, you would more likely need to remove some set as opposed to adding any more. Worst case would be to completely joint the blade and recut new teeth. Of course yo'd still have a saw requiring too much set to be a long term user. My rec for a saw for the young lady would be to find one of the dozens of Disstons being nearly given away on e-bay every day. Find a short panel saw of appropriate length and file the teeth or cut new ones. This summer my two oldest grandkids, ages 6 and 7 will be doing "Summercamp" at our house and LOML has informed me that they will be making some bird houses/feeders under my tutelage. I've got a little panel saw I've fixed up that is gonna be the GK saw until they get big enough to heft a real one. We'll probably make some kid sized saw horses first so they have a place to work, then it is off to scrap bin for the pieces to make the houses/feeders. ---- Start of Message 130117 (thread 50394) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-04 15:44:10 Subject: Re: cutting with modern handsaw > My rec for a saw for the young lady would be to find one of the > dozens of Disstons being nearly given away on e-bay every day. > Find a short panel saw of appropriate length and file the teeth > or cut new ones. Clearly a good recommendation. I've steered clear of trying to buy saws on eBay, though, as my impression is that shipping costs on something that large (to Canada) would be high. Anyone know, roughly, how much it costs to ship a saw to another planet like Quebec City? So far, I've found one Disston saw here in Quebec City (a semi-modern D8) and I bought it. The pickings are slim here. I think I need to go hang out with Paul in Montreal :-) > be making some bird houses/feeders under my tutelage. I've got a > little panel saw I've fixed up that is gonna be the GK saw until Jerry, when you say "little", what do you mean? Did Disston make really short panel saws? All of the ones I've seen are 24-28". -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130118 (thread 50394) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-04 20:50:47 Subject: Re: cutting with modern handsaw I know they made some 22" saws in some models, and possibly shorter than that. Check out http://www.disstonianinstitute.com to find out more info. They've got pics from old Disston catalogs which list the sizes. I've had stuff shipped from Canada on a couple of occassions, a place up there has great prices on the woodturning accessories, all the way down here to Texas and still saved money over the price I would have had to pay for the same item here. ---- Start of Message 130127 (thread 50394) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-04 14:25:22 Subject: Re: cutting with modern handsaw They made D7's, 8's and 12's in 16" and maybe 14". D8's in 14" for sure. But these are definitely worthless "toy" saws and must be stringently avoided like the plague. In fact, they are practically dangerous as they'll pollute your very collection! Never buy one or even let yourself accidentally have any respect for such. Especially the nibbed varieties. This is the way it's been since old tool accumulating began and should always be so. As bad as Disston is, the other makers and even the hardware store brands are even worse. Most especially the ones with elaborate etching and carved apple totes. Nobody likes these little saws. Never have. They are an affront to good saws everywhere by their very existence. 'Course, being a generous soul, I'll grudgingly assume the burden of making sure they don't disturb the general population That's box 409, Happy Camp. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130182 (thread 50394) ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-03-05 09:42:07 Subject: Re: cutting with modern handsaw Scott, You know, if you posted a few pictures, of said flagrant violations of saw art, us yunguns would know exactly what we should be acquir.....ah.....avoiding. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot > > They made D7's, 8's and 12's in 16" and maybe 14". D8's in 14" for sure. > But these are definitely worthless "toy" saws and must be stringently > avoided like the plague. In fact, they are practically dangerous as > they'll pollute your very collection! Never buy one or even let yourself > accidentally have any respect for such. Especially the nibbed varieties. > This is the way it's been since old tool accumulating began and should > always be so. > As bad as Disston is, the other makers and even the hardware store > brands are even worse. Most especially the ones with elaborate etching > and carved apple totes. > Nobody likes these little saws. Never have. They are an affront to > good saws everywhere by their very existence. > 'Course, being a generous soul, I'll grudgingly assume the burden of > making sure they don't disturb the general population > That's box 409, Happy Camp. > yours, Scott > -- > Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: > http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html > PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 130228 (thread 50394) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-06 12:29:11 Subject: Re: cutting with modern handsaw Larry writes : > I've steered clear of trying to buy > saws on eBay, though, as my impression is that shipping > costs on something that large (to Canada) would be high. > Anyone know, roughly, how much it costs to ship a saw to > another planet like Quebec City? The best way to calculate shipping is to go the USPS calculator at : http://ircalc.usps.gov/ That way you can specify which way you want to an American seller. I haven't found shipping to be overly expensive. Also if it's valued at less than 20$US or so it will fly through customs without stopping. That said, I've only bought one saw off ebay and it's probably the only one I have that is kinked. Before bidding I told the seller that I wanted to use it, and to do so it had to be perfectly straight. The reply was that it was so I bought it, only to find out it's not straight at all (and it didn't happen through shipping). Paul Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130286 (thread 50394) ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-03-08 09:16:57 Subject: Re: cutting with modern handsaw Scott said > > > > They made D7's, 8's and 12's in 16" and maybe 14". D8's in 14" for sure. >> But these are definitely worthless "toy" saws and must be stringently >> avoided like the plague. In fact, they are practically dangerous as > > they'll pollute your very collection! > > As bad as Disston is, the other makers and even the hardware store >> brands are even worse. Most especially the ones with elaborate etching >> and carved apple totes. >> Nobody likes these little saws. Never have. They are an affront to >> good saws everywhere by their very existence. >> 'Course, being a generous soul, I'll grudgingly assume the burden of >> making sure they don't disturb the general population >> That's box 409, Happy Camp. > > yours, Scott To which I will add --- Scott if you find that too many of these horrible beasts land on your stoop and you are too repulsed to even touch them -- carefully wrap them in brown wrap, place them in a 18 inch box marked US postal, pay the rate and send them to Rex Wood Werks care of John and he will find a way to displa ..... dispose of the offensive lot ;-). --John R. Wilson That's (Madison, WI. street address is; 11 Mondale Ct. and the zip is 53705) ++++ End of thread 50394 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50395 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130080 (thread 50395) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-04 07:45:01 Subject: Fwd: Re: [oldtools] Scary Sharpening > assistance. Plus for most people the hollow grinding you advocate > at finer grits involve buying a $200+ Tormek grinding m*ch*ne > which just isn't practical, particularly for a beginner. I'll bet John, any old rotating grindstone will permit hollow grinding. I use either my cheap, turns too fast electron-burner or my hand-cranked grinder that I bought for $5. > And for a beginner sharpener the most confusing thing is to be > set back by having too much information. Not all of sharpening is For some beginners possibly but we all make the mistake that everyone is like us. For instance, when I want to learn something I try to get as much information and as many opinions as I can possibly find. It'll take a long time to do the tests, learn the technique, but at least I know the solutiong cloud of possibilities. > Odd method of sharpening but I could see how it works for you if > you have a tailed apprentice doing the majority of the hollow Odd that you'd call hollow-grinding 'odd' as it seems to me that it's quite common and recommended by many. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ++++ End of thread 50395 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50396 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130085 (thread 50396) ---- From: "Doug" Date: 2004-03-04 07:33:53 Subject: RE: Bowsaws Dear Galoots, I've been reading the thread on the use of Bow and turning saws, and wanted to share my limited experience. I have three bowsaws that I made about 2 years ago. The large has pretty slim parts, along the lines of BugBear's design (except nowhere near as elegant) and takes a 26" blade, the second has a much stockier frame (in keeping with Texas' consistently high marks in having some of the "fattest" US cities) and takes a 12", the third is also stout, and takes standard coping saw blades. Of the three, the smallest sees use for removing dovetail waste all the time. The stouter arms and thick stretcher are not much to look at, but they provide a good foundation for a very high degree of tension and a heavier (and for me, more comfortable) feel. Ralph mentioned that high tension is important--I have found that high tension is crucial for crisp results. Also, with the small and middle sized versions, I cut almost exclusively on the push stroke, with the blade parallel to the floor. The biggy doesn't tension up that well, and so this one is used in the more traditional manner. Not surprisingly, the high tension makes for a short but exciting life for the coping saw blades--makes it kind of interesting when the bust in the middle of a cut (a little blast of adrenaline is not such a bad thing!). I have never used a good fret saw as Jeff has suggested--but I will say that the traditional coping saws that I have used are no comparison to the "fatty" texas bowsaw here in my shop. Best, Doug Brozovic Denton Texas ++++ End of thread 50396 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50397 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130086 (thread 50397) ---- From: "Doug" Date: 2004-03-04 07:41:12 Subject: a host for some pictures Dear Galoots, I read a while ago that there were generous galoots willing to "host" some pics for sharing with the porch. I would be grateful if a host would e-mail me directly in this regard. Thanks Doug Brozovic Denton Texas ++++ End of thread 50397 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50398 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130092 (thread 50398) ---- From: "Robert Fortier" Date: 2004-03-04 09:22:07 Subject: RE: Scary Sharpening (a low cost jig description) Here is how I did it, for those who are interested in the scary sharp. Instead of buying the Veritas roller, or other for that matter, I made mine using 2 piece of wood, 6 x 1 x 3/4, screwed together in a way that I can clamp blades, or chisel between them. Then I took 2 roller blade (in line skate) bearing, or skateboard bearing, and I screwed them at the tip of the lower piece of wood. These are my wheels, and being 6 inch apart keep them out of the strip of sandpaper. My 2 cents Bob in Sherbrooke, Province of Quebec -----Message d'origine----- De : John Sawchak [mailto:jherbs@e...] Envoye : 4 mars, 2004 09:10 A : oldtools Objet : RE: [oldtools] Scary Sharpening I think the stone wear is the issue there so maybe it is a non issue using the sandpaper since the flatness is provided by the glass backing. Say, I did recheck out your site again last night and I was a bit surprised to read you had freehand sharpened for forty years and decided jigs were better. I am curious as to the details of what you noticed that made you convert. I've been thinking about making one of those roller type jigs up. I also noticed a detail in your sharpening notes that mentioned some difficulty with getting the edge square (or was it rounding off the corners?)... anyway I have suggestion that might correct that. I'm thinking that narrow roller is the culprit. What about using double rollers on the jig that would provide a wider base? A wider frame of reference, if you will. Think of the stability a sports car gets by being low and wide. The other correction possibility would be to use a long roller to get the same wide base. Only with this design the piece of the honing jig going over the stone might have to be lengthened. Actually if you make it long enough to accommodate real long pieces it could double for chisel handle clearance as well. And I also found myself wondering why, if it worked so well, hadn't you just adapted the design to use with chisels? A separate honing jig for chisels. The easiest here would seem to be under mounting the chisel to the clamp because the back of the bevel is always flat but the angles on the face of a chisel can vary greatly depending on its type. Naturally there would have to be a hole in the jig to accommodate the chisel handle. > : The only thing > : I wonder about is if I would need to add some way of making a > : slight figure > : 8 motion? > > The figure of eight motion is something that has been passed around for > donkey's years, but what is its justification, I wonder? > I suppose that it produces a distinctive pattern of stone wear, but is > this beneficial? > > Jeff > -- > Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK > Email: amgron@c... > http://www.amgron.clara.net > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ++++ End of thread 50398 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50399 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130093 (thread 50399) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-04 14:12:46 Subject: Eagle Medallion Question A while back I got a Jackson Backsaw via e-bay. Has the Warranted Superior Eagle Medallion. A Jennings back saw came available real cheap recently on e-bay and I got it. This one has a much wider and thicker back than I have seen on any of my Disston made backsaws. It also has the Warranted Superior Eagle Medallion. It was my belief that these were Disston Medallions put onto their secondary lines and saws manufactured for other brands. Is this medallion something that was added by someone along the line; were Jenning's saws made by Disston; or what is the story here? The handle seems to have been made to accept this medallion, or at least one of the same size. I am SO confused, of course that isnot an unusual state of mind for me. The back on that saw is so different from the other Disstons that I would think this would be a totally different set-up for manufacturing. ---- Start of Message 130143 (thread 50399) ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-03-04 22:23:04 Subject: Re: Eagle Medallion Question >It was my belief that these were Disston Medallions put onto their secondary lines >and saws manufactured for other brands. Is this medallion something that was >added by someone along the line; were Jenning's saws made by Disston; or what >is the story here? Perhaps I am remembering incorrectly, but I vaguely recall reading somewhere that Disston also sold these Warrented Superior medallions to other saw makers. I have limitted experience, but it does not seem incredibly unusual to find them on non-Disston saws. For example, the saw shown below (believed to be British - and the subject of the first post I ever made to the list) also has one. http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/duncansaw.jpg Anyone have any more info? Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 130147 (thread 50399) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-04 21:45:42 Subject: Re: Eagle Medallion Question Bruce: I believe you will find your answers here . . . http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/MedallionPage.html . Click on Medallions. and scroll down to the bottom. Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Love" To: "oldtools" Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Eagle Medallion Question > >It was my belief that these were Disston Medallions put onto their secondary > lines > >and saws manufactured for other brands. Is this medallion something that was > >added by someone along the line; were Jenning's saws made by Disston; or what > >is the story here? > > > Perhaps I am remembering incorrectly, but I vaguely recall reading somewhere > that > Disston also sold these Warrented Superior medallions to other saw makers. I > have limitted experience, but it does not seem incredibly unusual to find them > on > non-Disston saws. > > For example, the saw shown below (believed to be British - and the subject of > the > first post I ever made to the list) also has one. > > http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/duncansaw.jpg > > > Anyone have any more info? > > > Bruce Love > Pipersville, PA > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ++++ End of thread 50399 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50400 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130095 (thread 50400) ---- From: Zwwizard@n... (Richard) Date: 2004-03-04 10:44:53 Subject: Old Forge Thanks I would like to thank all of you that replied to my questions on the Forges. The O & C one is set up and was fired up yesterday. Works fine, I am going to build up my left arm. :>)) The smaller one has been sold already. -- Richard, Richard L. Rombold WIZARD WOODWORKING 489 N. 32nd. St. Springfield, Or .97478 http://www.PictureTrail.com/gallery/view?username=thewizz "Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup" __________________________________________________________________ New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp ++++ End of thread 50400 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50401 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130096 (thread 50401) ---- From: "Lawrence H. Smith" Date: 2004-03-04 10:47:53 Subject: Heading to Western Illinois I'll be heading from SW VT/NW MA out to Western Illinois (Macomb, specifically) in about a week and a half to do some fixing up at my MIL's place, and collect some furniture. A few questions: Anyone need anything hauled from here out there? The truck will be empty heading that way, unless... Does anyone out that way have Osage Orange aka Bodark aka Bois d'Arc aka Hedge or Black Locust or Black Walnut they'd like to trade for some Vermont Spalted (or non-spalted) Maple (pretty green). I can put in log sections as well as boards, fellow lathe persons. Will stick to 8 foot and under boards, as I don't want to run 1000 miles with an open tailgate. Don't know that I'll have a lot of free time, and with the price of gas and the way the truck sucks it, I don't expect I'll go too far out of the way, but are there any old-tool-mecca's I should know about? Any local galoots I should visit? I can't seem to find any in the archives, though I do get a lot of Mr. Heyza (thanks again for the shirt!) in Macomb ...Michigan. -- -Lawrence H Smith, Librarian/Computarian for Buxton School and Woodworker -lsmith@s... Cats, Coffee, Chocolate... Vices to live by. ++++ End of thread 50401 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50402 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130099 (thread 50402) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-03-04 11:03:39 Subject: "Tap-hole Maple" [was: Heading to Western Illinois] Lawrence H. Smith wrote: >Does anyone out that way have Osage Orange aka Bodark aka Bois d'Arc aka >Hedge or Black Locust or Black Walnut they'd like to trade for some >Vermont Spalted (or non-spalted) Maple (pretty green). As an Vermont/maple-(vaguely)related aside: Last time I was at my local wood-dealer's, she had a pile labelled "Tap-hole Maple". Seems it's maple from trees that have been tapped with the spiggots used for collecting sap for maple syrup (known in these parts as "sugaring"). Turns out it's rather popular with the rustic-renovation set. What's that they say about the a feature being merely a bug with the proper documentation? N ++++ End of thread 50402 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50403 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130104 (thread 50403) ---- From: "Doug" Date: 2004-03-04 10:24:29 Subject: some pictures Dear Galoots, first, thanks to those who responded to my request for a picture repository. Jim Esten has me set up, and so here they are: The Texas Fatty Bowsaws may be seen at http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=383 In keeping with a recent thread on rehandling chisels with leather washers, here are a set of Greenlee butt chisels that I did in December of 2002, I think. The handles were turned on the trustly bungee lathe. The tool roll is courtesy of my wife Patou--she is far too supportive and massively "galoot friendly" to refer to as SWMBO (she actually points out estate sales!) http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=384 Finally, here is a set of dovetail chisels made from old files--tempered in the oven. These are the prototypes that will become the backbone of my "Twenty-to-Life Tools" line. http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=385 Thanks again to Jim for the space. Best Doug Brozovic Denton, Texas ++++ End of thread 50403 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50404 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130107 (thread 50404) ---- From: Chuck Taylor Date: 2004-03-04 09:33:10 Subject: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup (PICS) Esteemed Galootish Gentlefolk, A few weeks ago I reported that I had purchased an old rusty Stanley Bedrock 605 (cast iron jack plane, Jeff) for $20 US and I promised to eventually post some pictures. It turned out to be a Type 3 (1900-1908) with a Type 6 lever cap and a WW2-era "Victory Made in USA" iron and chipbreaker. The sole was particularly rusty: http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=374 Disassembly was a bit of chore; I ended up having to soak the frog and top of the bed in diesel fuel for a few days, then I used a brace and screwdriver bit to loosen the frog adjustment screw. I needed the brace to loosen some of the other screws too. I decided to give the zap tank a try. I used a plastic bucket, some "Oxy Wash" from the grocery store (sodium percarbonate and sodium carbonate) because I couldn't find pure "washing soda". I used a 10-cent stainless steel table knife from a thrift store for the anode, and an old 6-amp battery charger. I dried things in an oven after zapping. Here's how the sole came out: http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=379 Never having used the zap tank treatment before, I was amazed. Once the rust on the sole and sides of the bed were softened, a razor blade made short work of it. I didn't zap the frog or the lever cap. You can get an idea of how the iron and chipbreaker looked from this photo: http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=375 Here is how they came out after a session in the zap tank: http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=377 I still wasn't satisfied, as there was a lot of pitting on the back of the cutting iron. I decided that some further effort was needed. (My technique will not be disclosed, but thanks to fellow galoot Vlad Spehar for an assist.) http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=382 The wood was good, but there was a chunk broken out of one cheek (still is). Here are a couple of other pictures: Before: http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=376 http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=372 After: http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=381 http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=378 I should mention that this plane is 13-1/2 inches long, about 1/2 an inch shorter than the more-modern Stanley jack planes. Thanks to Jim Esten of Galoot Image Central for hosting the pictures, and my apologies for the quality of the photography. The photos do not due justice to how well the tote came out. Except for the iron and chipbreaker :-), I tried to heed Todd Hughes' oft-stated advice to avoid the "over-cleaned" look. The sole and sides of the bed came out feeling as smooth as glass. I am happy with the results. Thanks to all of you galoots for the encouragement and the tips over the years that made this possible. With best galootish regards, Chuck Taylor Everett, WA, USA __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---- Start of Message 130119 (thread 50404) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-04 15:27:19 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup (PICS) Chuck; I for one would like to hear the deep dark secrets used to unpit the cutting iron. I have a very badly pitted iron from a #8 that I'd like to deal with. You can tell us . . . we won't tell anyone. Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana From: "Chuck Taylor" > > I still wasn't satisfied, as there was a lot of > pitting on the back of the cutting iron. I > decided that some further effort was needed. (My > technique will not be disclosed, but thanks to > fellow galoot Vlad Spehar for an assist.) > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130120 (thread 50404) ---- From: Johnny Johnson Date: 2004-03-04 16:32:47 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup (PICS) At 03:27 PM 3/4/2004 -0800, Richard J. Hucker wrote: >Chuck; >I for one would like to hear the deep dark secrets used to unpit the cutting >iron. I have a very badly pitted iron from a #8 that I'd like to deal with. >You can tell us . . . we won't tell anyone. Hey Huck, I think it involves sending money off to someone to purchase a new one. Later, Johnny __________________________ Johnny Johnson Lilburn, GA mailto:jjohnso4@c... ---- Start of Message 130123 (thread 50404) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-04 13:46:18 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup (PICS) On Thursday, March 4, 2004, at 03:27 PM, Richard J. Hucker wrote: > I for one would like to hear the deep dark secrets used to unpit the > cutting > iron. I have a very badly pitted iron from a #8 that I'd like to deal > with. I recently wrote in to the list about this very problem. I have 2 #8 planes and I back beveled the worst blade 5 degrees. That eliminated the necessity of polishing the pitted back. And after setting them both up the same way, I was not able to tell any difference in the quality of the cut or the amount of effort required to push the plane on the same board. I will never chase after those stinking pits again. Just back bevel and be done with it. I don't know yet if this will hold true for smaller planes, but as soon as I can I will find out. I have 2 6's and 2 4's to play with. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130124 (thread 50404) ---- From: Chuck Taylor Date: 2004-03-04 14:08:09 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup (PICS) Sheesh! Can't get away with anything around you guys! Johnny is on to my "secret". If you look closely at http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=382 You may notice the "STW" logo on the iron. That stands for "Spehar Tool Works". I'm sure Vlad would be happy to help you out too, Huck. :-) Or maybe Reverend Ron.... Chuck Taylor > At 03:27 PM 3/4/2004 -0800, Richard J. Hucker wrote: > > >I for one would like to hear the deep dark secrets > used to unpit the cutting > >iron. I have a very badly pitted iron from a #8 > that I'd like to deal with. > >You can tell us . . . we won't tell anyone. --- Johnny Johnson wrote: > Hey Huck, > > I think it involves sending money off to someone to > purchase a new one. > > Later, > Johnny > __________________________ > Johnny Johnson > Lilburn, GA > mailto:jjohnso4@c... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---- Start of Message 130164 (thread 50404) ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-03-05 08:54:57 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup (PICS) Chuck Taylor wrote: > Sheesh! Can't get away with anything around you guys! > Johnny is on to my "secret". If you look closely at > > http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=382 > > You may notice the "STW" logo on the iron. Hate to nit-pick, but you said "logo on(sic) the iron" Loking at the picture, I think you meant "logo THROUGH the iron" geez, Vlad - did ya' get some cheap time on a spark-eroder? BugBear ---- Start of Message 130193 (thread 50404) ---- From: vladimir spehar Date: 2004-03-05 08:42:43 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup (PICS) Sure did! At N/C too. Vlad --- bugbear wrote: > Chuck Taylor wrote: > > Sheesh! Can't get away with anything around you > guys! > > Johnny is on to my "secret". If you look closely > at > > > > > http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=382 > > > > You may notice the "STW" logo on the iron. > > Hate to nit-pick, but you said "logo on(sic) the > iron" > > Loking at the picture, I think you meant > "logo THROUGH the iron" > > geez, Vlad - did ya' get some cheap time on a > spark-eroder? > > BugBear > > > Archive: > http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web > interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ===== Cheers. Vladimir (Vlad) Spehar Spehar ToolWorks. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ++++ End of thread 50404 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50405 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130108 (thread 50405) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-04 10:17:45 Subject: New Pewter Rings I'm having a tough day getting a decent picture here, Galoots. Its' cloudy which is enough to keep the flash from going off, but not quite bright enough for a good pic. Well, anyway, here's a few of the latest. These are butt gouges and chisels. Have I ever mentioned the small toolbox of custom homemade tools? I'll never live to see it finished, but I keep plugging away on it anyhow. Each of these has some minor imperfection someplace you can't see in the pix. Oh yeah, like I didn't learn nuthin' from Hef? 8^) http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/buttring3.jpg yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130113 (thread 50405) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-04 11:55:09 Subject: Re: New Pewter Rings On Thursday, March 4, 2004, at 10:17 AM, scott grandstaff wrote: > Well, anyway, here's a few of the latest. These are butt gouges and > chisels. Have I ever mentioned the small toolbox of custom homemade > tools? I'll never live to see it finished, but I keep plugging away > on it anyhow. Each of these has some minor imperfection someplace > you can't see in the pix. Oh yeah, like I didn't learn nuthin' from > Hef? 8^) > http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/buttring3.jpg > Every time I think I have really done something special, Scott posts pictures that make me feel inadequate. I wish I had that kind of talent. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130114 (thread 50405) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-04 12:01:55 Subject: Re: New Pewter Rings Oh yeah Like I could ever carve like you do!! Or weld with such precision, or or or. And just think of the volume of gorgeous stuff rolling nonstop out of your shop! My stuff is only once in a while. You leave me in the dust. yours, Scott > > Every time I think I have really done something special, Scott posts > pictures that make me feel inadequate. I wish I had that kind of talent. > > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA > > -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130121 (thread 50405) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-04 15:40:32 Subject: Re: New Pewter Rings > Oh yeah > Like I could ever carve like you do!! Or weld with such precision, or > or or. And just think of the volume of gorgeous stuff rolling nonstop > out of your shop! My stuff is only once in a while. You leave me in the > dust. > yours, Scott > > > Every time I think I have really done something special, Scott posts > > pictures that make me feel inadequate. I wish I had that kind of talent. > > > > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA > > Both of you fellows are really funny. It was just a couple of weeks ago about half of the Galoots were admitting that they can't cut on a straight line because one hand doesn't know what the other one is doing. Or perhaps it was the lack of having ambidextrous eyes. Fleming, Einstein and Tesla were all ambidextrous. Benjamin Franklin was also ambidextrous and signed the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution with his left hand. US president James Garfield was a well-educated backwoodsman born in a log cabin. Although he could write with either hand with equal ease, he could also write Greek with his left hand and Latin with his right hand simultaneously. Harry Kahne demonstrated his mental dexterity in 1922 by performing several mental operations simultaneously. While one hand was writing mirror language, the other hand intermingled upside down and backwards letters. Many musical instruments are played ambidextrously, and many athletes are adept at using both of their hands. Since swimming is an ambidextrous activity, teaching dyslectic children to swim often helps them to read and write normally because it balances the brain hemispheres. Become ambidextrous and along with an added physiological brain growth, a more balanced integration of your 2 hemispheres will be achieved. Studies have shown that ambidextrous people are more emotionally independent, more determined, more adaptable to new situations and more apt to handle problems without giving up. Michelangelo was a multi-faceted genius like Leonardo da Vinci. He often painted with both hands. When one got tired, he switched to the other. British artist Sir Edwin Landseer could draw with both hands simultaneously - a horse's head with one hand and a stag's head with the other. He taught drawing and etching to Queen Victoria who was a lefty that became ambidextrous. Most of us wish we had just of a bit of the talent you two have. Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130157 (thread 50405) ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-03-05 02:36:51 Subject: Re: New Pewter Rings > I'm having a tough day getting a decent picture here, Galoots. > Its' cloudy which is enough to keep the flash from going off, but not > quite bright enough for a good pic. > Well, anyway, here's a few of the latest. These are butt gouges and > chisels. Have I ever mentioned the small toolbox of custom homemade > tools? I'll never live to see it finished, but I keep plugging away on > it anyhow. > Each of these has some minor imperfection someplace you can't see > in the pix. Oh yeah, like I didn't learn nuthin' from Hef? 8^) > http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/buttring3.jpg > yours, Scott Scott, I popped that picture up, and went 'wow'. You and Jim talked me into making some pewter ringed items last year, and I thought I was doing some pretty nice work. You just burst the bubble on that little self-delusion!! Nice, very nice. Charlie Driggs Newark DE ---- Start of Message 130181 (thread 50405) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-05 06:57:14 Subject: RE: New Pewter Rings Nice work, Scott! > http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/buttring3.jpg > yours, Scott > -- > Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: > http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html I don't know if this is relevant or not but I will just throw it out there. All this metallurgical discussion about pewter and possible replacements for it remind me of some unusual alloys I read about in a 1950s chemical magic book I had. In this book they give several formulas for making metal alloys that will melt with just body heat like being held in the hand. Now I make no guarantees I can actually find the book again but if anybody thinks it might help I can do some digging. I would think one could use the info towards making their own alloy that melts above body heat but could be an easier, and maybe less expensive, replacement for pewter. It had more than one formula. ++++ End of thread 50405 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50406 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130110 (thread 50406) ---- From: "Jim Cook" Date: 2004-03-04 13:43:20 Subject: Galoots in Atlanta? Hi all you Southern Galoots, I've now done my pennance in Coudersport PA, where the only oldtool I found was a diseased wooden jointer with splits, a short cutter, and a wide open mouth, the wrong wedge, and a slight twist to boot - all for the princely sum of $55. Sorry, it had to stay there on the antique store floor. I'm now getting sent to Atlanta, GA for possibly up to five months, and would be really happy to connect with some of you TFOTS (Tool Fiends of the South). I'll be able to go home for weekends and commune with the metal objects in my basement, but somehow it's just not the same as slipping downstairs to make a shaving or two before supper, and I know I'm going to miss them (the shavings that is, not supper; I never miss supper). I'll miss my family of course, but that's another story. Jim Jim Cook Newton, MA ++++ End of thread 50406 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50407 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130111 (thread 50407) ---- From: "Marcus Sly" Date: 2004-03-04 19:16:39 Subject: Marking up panels Hello Galoots, One day I hope to contribute more to the porch than a load of newbie questions, but in the mean time, here's another one. I'm making a tool chest, which is going to be based atround a dovetailed box 2' x 1'6" x 2'. Should give me lots of chance to practice my dovetails..... I'm thinking about how to mark up the panels for the box. How do I make mark the ends square when the biggest square I can find is only 12" long? I am planning to mark a line twelve inches long and extend it with a rule. Is this the best way? On similar lines, how do I checkthat the end of the panel is dead square before marking round it with a cutting gauge for the dovetails? Thanks Marcus, ---- Start of Message 130112 (thread 50407) ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-03-04 19:30:20 Subject: Re: Marking up panels Marcus's toolbox building. . . > How do I mark the ends square when the biggest square I can find is only 12" long=3F The Bootstrap Galoot, he says. . . . First make yourself a large square. From wood. It's what the old time chaps did. If you use the famous formula for right angle triangles of 3,4,5 ration sides, then you can mark up the end of your boards directly by measuring off the hypotenuse and striking a line from the end of the board, or first make the square - using the formula to ensure accuracy. Or cut an accurate set square triangle from sheet goods (Always useful in future) - If you add a stock on one edge, then behold, you have a homemade square again. And then, always consider that you may not be seeking squareness, but merely that the two sides or ends match. Even when working with highly accurate instruments, its always worth marking out pairs from each other. I'd always say that a box needs to be square, but if the top was a touch wider than the bottom, why, it won't affect its function, and it proves it to be hand made. (also lets the tills slide easier - if you have some) Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 130122 (thread 50407) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-04 16:55:20 Subject: Re: Marking up panels Sorry about the bad ascii artwork /| / | / | / | 5' / | / | 4' / | / | /________|45deg. 3' >First make yourself a large square. From wood. It's what the old time >chaps did. > >If you use the famous formula for right angle triangles of 3,4,5 ration >sides, then you can mark up the end of your boards directly by measuring >off the hypotenuse and striking a line from the end of the board, or first >make the square - using the formula to ensure accuracy. ---- Start of Message 130128 (thread 50407) ---- From: David Dougherty Date: 2004-03-04 14:34:24 Subject: Re: Marking up panels Er... that should be 90deg, not 45deg. Jonathan Peck wrote:Sorry about the bad ascii artwork /| / | / | / | 5' / | / | 4' / | / | /________|45deg. 3' >First make yourself a large square. From wood. It's what the old time >chaps did. > >If you use the famous formula for right angle triangles of 3,4,5 ration >sides, then you can mark up the end of your boards directly by measuring >off the hypotenuse and striking a line from the end of the board, or first >make the square - using the formula to ensure accuracy. Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ===== -- David W. Dougherty, Maker and Proprietor DWD Violins and String Instrument Repair __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130130 (thread 50407) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-04 18:05:56 Subject: Re: Marking up panels Hmmmm. That could explain why the ends of my boards look like miters..doink!! Funny the last time I posted on this subject, I called it the old 4,5,6. Perhaps it's time for a beverage...or several. The kind best served at a crisp 45 deg.F in a frosty 8 oz. mug with good company and familiar music on the jukebox.. >Er... that should be 90deg, not 45deg. > >Jonathan Peck wrote:Sorry about the >bad ascii artwork > > >/| >/ | >/ | >/ | >5' / | >/ | 4' >/ | >/ | >/________|45deg. > >3' > >>First make yourself a large square. From wood. It's >what the old >time >>chaps did. >> >>If you use the famous formula for right angle >triangles of 3,4,5 >ration >>sides, then you can mark up the end of your boards >directly by >measuring >>off the hypotenuse and striking a line from the end >of the board, >or first >>make the square - using the formula to ensure >accuracy. ---- Start of Message 130163 (thread 50407) ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-03-05 08:51:34 Subject: Re: Marking up panels Marcus Sly wrote: > Hello Galoots, > > One day I hope to contribute more to the porch than a load of newbie > questions, but in the mean time, here's another one. > > I'm making a tool chest, which is going to be based atround a > dovetailed box 2' x 1'6" x 2'. Should give me lots of chance to > practice my dovetails..... > > I'm thinking about how to mark up the panels for the box. How do I > make mark the ends square when the biggest square I can find is only > 12" long? I am planning to mark a line twelve inches long and extend > it with a rule. Is this the best way? In your circumstances, yes. I long ago picked up a draughsmens T-square (in the age od CAD, these go very cheap) that allows me to mark out full size sheet goods :-) > > On similar lines, how do I checkthat the end of the panel is > dead square Shooting board, or just plane carefully to your lines. If you choose to plane from both ends, and check with a square, be careful to always reference from your face edge - your 2 long sides may (or may not) be dead parallel. > before marking round it with a cutting gauge for the dovetails? Be careful. A sharp cutting guage can cut deep enough to weaken the joint. http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_i- d=103919&submit_thread=1#message I mark with a pencil gauge, then layout the pins/tails *THEN* go over the base of the waste with a cutting gauge, trying as far as possible not to gauge the good wood. I cut pretty deep when I do this, resulting in not only a clear mark in which to place my chisel for final paring, but a good start to the cutting process itself. Finally, to avoid the horrid balancing act involved in marking one board from the other, especially with large pieces, here's a GREAT tip: http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tour.html#dovetail_marking BugBear ---- Start of Message 130192 (thread 50407) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-03-05 08:40:15 Subject: Re: Marking up panels On 5 Mar 2004 at 8:51, bugbear wrote: > In your circumstances, yes. I long ago picked up a draughsmens > T-square (in the age od CAD, these go very cheap) that allows > me to mark out full size sheet goods :-) One thing that may not be so obvious here is that you should check these for squareness. I borrowed one from my MIL's basement a few years ago for just this purpose, and somehow after marking out the lines it just looked wrong. I then checked the square itself by flipping it over (not possible on all, but it was on this one) against one of the lines and it was out by several degrees. It had probably been dropped a few times over the years, which taught me a good lesson. Never assume an old square is really square, even one intended for precision work like mechanical drawing. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ++++ End of thread 50407 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50408 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130126 (thread 50408) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-04 14:22:04 Subject: A boot jack Digging in my closet this morning I found a boot jack that I made about 10 years ago. I thought you might like to see it. It is definitely different. http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/PhotoAlbum48.html You also get to see my black Lucchese boots working the jack. Scroll to the bottom of the page. I can't get the individual picture links to work. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ++++ End of thread 50408 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50409 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130135 (thread 50409) ---- From: mimulus@p... Date: 2004-03-04 16:40:06 Subject: Galoots and plastics There was an article in the local paper about a large gift to the College of Forest Products at the local U. The money was given by a well known producer of composite materials, and is to be used to fund a position and related research. Fiber and concrete, fiber and plastic, fiber and yada. High tech materials that make plywood quaint. The push to get these products to market obviously arises from the diminishing supply of timber that can be sawed into whole, real-wood boards. How much longer will these well patina'd tools we love and (some of us) know be useful? Will an Atkins go through concrete? Will I need a 20" brace to drill holes? As a coincidence, I noticed an odd looking plane in the current Leach List that is described as intended for plastics and composite materials. My paranoid instinct suggests I snap it up. cur ---- Start of Message 130145 (thread 50409) ---- From: Andy Barss Date: 2004-03-04 20:37:53 Subject: Re: Galoots and plastics On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 mimulus@p... wrote: > > The push to get these products to market obviously arises from the > diminishing supply of timber that can be sawed into whole, real-wood > boards. I'm not sure that's true. There are certainly fewer *really* big trees that can be sawn into extremely wide boards, but the US has more trees now than it did 150 years ago. I suspect the push is simply to get a new product into a very lucrative market. Almost all plywood is made using rotary cut veneers, which can be made from very small trees. -- Andy Barss ---- Start of Message 130172 (thread 50409) ---- From: mimulus@p... Date: 2004-03-05 08:22:23 Subject: Re: Galoots and plastics Andy replied: > On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 mimulus@p... wrote: > >> [stuff about composites] > > I'm not sure that's true. [...] the US has > more trees now than it did 150 years ago. This is kinda true around Northen Michigan and suchlike, where the sandier soils won't support intensive farming for very long and trees recolonized the vacated fields. As you move south just a tad south, the soils (again, if I recall correctly) are siltier and hence more supportive of ag, and have undergone correspondingly less reforestation. Out here on the West coast of Vermont, we have 40-80 year rotations and thus more numerous tress, but little opportunity for boards of significant width that won't eventually involve second mortgages. My question wasn't so much about forest policies or the moral fiber of wood composites, but rather about the future of galootery. It seems plausible that as solid wood products become more expensive, composites will become increasingly common. These new materials won't likely be engineered with handplaning in mind, leaving us with an increasinly expensive persuit (as if estate sales weren't already bad enough here). cur d'Corvallis -- ... or create new suitable hand tools... ++++ End of thread 50409 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50410 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130136 (thread 50410) ---- From: "Dan Clermont" Date: 2004-03-05 00:43:01 Subject: Infill Lever Caps Does somebody out there sell infill lever caps? They look time consuming and finicky to make. I was reading Jim Yehle's plans on how to make an A13 Infill and he mentioned he would not make a blade/chipbreaker or lever cap again because both were readily availlable. Thnking about building something sometime but making a Cap Iron turns me off. Dan Clermont in Burnaby ---- Start of Message 130148 (thread 50410) ---- From: Andy Barss Date: 2004-03-04 20:46:35 Subject: Re: Infill Lever Caps On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Dan Clermont wrote: > Does somebody out there sell infill lever caps? They look time > consuming and finicky to make. > Try Bob Howard at St. James Bay Tools. I think he sells finished ones for around $35, and unfinished for less. -- Andy Barss ---- Start of Message 130176 (thread 50410) ---- From: Russ Allen Date: 2004-03-05 09:28:17 Subject: Re: Infill Lever Caps Dan Clermont writes: > Does somebody out there sell infill lever caps? They look time > consuming and finicky to make. To which Andy Barss adds: > Try Bob Howard at St. James Bay Tools. I think he sells finished > ones for around $35, and unfinished for less. There's a scan from Bob's catalog at: http://home.xnet.com/~rcallen/stjameslevers.jpg The 2 inch wide unfinished ones are about $15 IIRC. Bob's site is http://www.stjamesbaytoolco.com/ Standard disclaimer, no affiliation but (gloat coming) I will be visiting Mesa in a coule of weeks! Russ Allen who has one more seat open for our July 31st infill class http://www.galootapalooza.org/ ++++ End of thread 50410 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50411 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130139 (thread 50411) ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-03-04 20:44:55 Subject: Need a little help ID'ing a pair of braces Gentle Galoots, A side 'benefit' of being home ill after my first ever migraine (if a benefit can come of that) was having LOML drag me to the local estate sale warehouse today. Turned out to be good therapy, made worthwhile by snagging a pair of robust 10" braces in very good condition. An hour spent online researching the Archives, Sandy Moss's and Randy Roeder's sites didn't provide much additional illumination as to just what I've acquired. Picture can be seen here: http://home.mindspring.com/~cdinde/tools/ One of these braces is a little used Craftsman Professional with a Lion-style chuck, red lacquer over hardwood handles, and bare steel finish. While it has no identifying model number, it does have 90% of the original decal on the handle. Looks a great deal like my Millers Falls Lion brace ca.1920, but with different style knurling, so I'm presuming it was made for Sears by M-F. The other caught my eye with it's beech pad and handle, and stamped marking of "Samson *", but doesn't appear to have a Samson chuck and again has no identifying model number that I can find. I gather that the second one is probably a high-end PS&W brace from their Samson line, but the chuck style and finish are a surprise if that is the case, and the Craftsman actually seems to be the slightly better brace of the two. As I have no catalogs for these makers, my research is at a standstill. Are the descriptions and photo enough for anyone to identify one, or both, more explicitly? Charlie Driggs Newark DE And yes, I still have a headache, but I'm a lot happier about it than I was last night. ---- Start of Message 130171 (thread 50411) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-05 13:01:46 Subject: Re: Need a little help ID'ing a pair of braces Hi I haven't seen a reply for this yet, so I'll take a shot. I'm not sure, but......the bottom one looks like a John S. Fray. Probably one of the lower end models targeted towards farmers with bare steel bow (not nickel plated) and beech cup and wrist handles. The chucks on these also were of lesser grade (if it is a Fray). Or you could have a Frankenbrace. The top one could be a Stanley #813 made for Craftsman/Sears. The chuck on this model is similar to the "lion" and "Samson" chucks of Millers falls and P S & W respectively. I have a lion, samson and a #813 and the Stanley is my favorite (favourite Jeff). Just a guess > Picture can be seen here: >http://home.mindspring.com/~cdinde/tools/ > >One of these braces is a little used Craftsman Professional with a >Lion-style chuck, red lacquer over hardwood handles, and bare steel >finish. While it has no identifying model number, it does have 90% of >the original decal on the handle. Looks a great deal like my Millers >Falls Lion brace ca.1920, but with different style knurling, so I'm >presuming it was made for Sears by M-F. The other caught my eye with >it's beech pad and handle, and stamped marking of "Samson *", but >doesn't appear to have a Samson chuck and again has no identifying model >number that I can find. I gather that the second one is probably a >high-end PS&W brace from their Samson line, but the chuck style and >finish are a surprise if that is the case, and the Craftsman actually >seems to be the slightly better brace of the two. As I have no catalogs >for these makers, my research is at a standstill. > >Are the descriptions and photo enough for anyone to identify one, or >both, more explicitly? > >Charlie Driggs >Newark DE > >And yes, I still have a headache, but I'm a lot happier about it than I >was last night. > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ++++ End of thread 50411 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50412 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130146 (thread 50412) ---- From: Darrell & Kathy Date: 2004-03-04 22:44:36 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup Jim Thompson wrote: > I recently wrote in to the list about this very problem. I have 2 #8 > planes and I back beveled the worst blade 5 degrees. That eliminated the > necessity of polishing the pitted back. > I will never chase after those stinking pits again. Just back bevel and > be done with it. Rob Cosman gave a presentation on preparing lumber from rough sawn to finished dimension using hand planes to the Halton Furniture Makers Society last week. When he was discussing sharpening he said he learned about back bevels from David Charlesworth. Rob said he had considered back bevels to be a great evil, and avoided them by going to great lengths to keep his waterstones perfectly flat. After Charlesworth showed him how it was done, and how FAST it made honing irons, and how well the blade worked, Rob was converted. I haven't tried it yet, but I have seen it done, and used the plane it was done to. The back bevel was accomplished by placing a small steel rule (about 1/2 inch wide and quite thin) along one side of the waterstone. This lifted the back of the iron a wee bit and produced the back bevel. -- Darrell Oakville ON Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User ---- Start of Message 130150 (thread 50412) ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-03-04 23:11:59 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup Darrell & Kathy wrote: > Jim Thompson wrote: > >> I recently wrote in to the list about this very problem. I have 2 #8 >> planes and I back beveled the worst blade 5 degrees. That eliminated >> the necessity of polishing the pitted back. > > >> I will never chase after those stinking pits again. Just back bevel >> and be done with it. > > > Rob Cosman ... I'm almost afraid to ask here, but is doing a back bevel in lieu of flattening the back of the blade? How big (in "depth") is the back bevel; small I'd imagine, no? ---- Start of Message 130165 (thread 50412) ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-03-05 09:01:38 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup Darrell & Kathy wrote: > Jim Thompson wrote: > >> I recently wrote in to the list about this very problem. I have 2 #8 >> planes and I back beveled the worst blade 5 degrees. That eliminated >> the necessity of polishing the pitted back. > > >> I will never chase after those stinking pits again. Just back bevel >> and be done with it. Err. Guys. We just had this one. I think the shellac fumes must be cuttin' in. http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_i- d=129067&submit_thread=1#message BugBear ---- Start of Message 130188 (thread 50412) ---- From: Craig Treleaven Date: 2004-03-05 19:29:58 Subject: Re: Rusty Bedrock 605 Cleanup At 11:11 PM -0500 2004/3/04, Michael campbell wrote: >Darrell & Kathy wrote: >>Jim Thompson wrote: >> >>>I recently wrote in to the list about this very problem. I have 2 #8 >>>planes and I back beveled the worst blade 5 degrees. That eliminated >>>the necessity of polishing the pitted back. >> >> >>I will never chase after those stinking pits again. Just back bevel >>and be done with it. >> >> >>Rob Cosman ... > > >I'm almost afraid to ask here, but is doing a back bevel in lieu of >flattening the back of the blade? How big (in "depth") is the back >bevel; small I'd imagine, no? Tiny. To resharpen, Rob only worked on the back of the iron for a few (10-15?) seconds on an 8000 grit waterstone. I believe he said that he only spends a couple of minutes on a brand new iron on a 1000 grit stone. And that is both the back _and_ the bevel! He only works the back enough to eliminate any grinding swirls that may be present. It was very interesting to watch. Rob is a man of strongly held opinions and he is totally converted to Charleworth's micro back-bevel. A few people there had attended his earlier week-long courses where they had spent literally hours trying to achieve a perfectly polished and flat back. Pretty huge switch! Craig ++++ End of thread 50412 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50413 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130152 (thread 50413) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-04 23:27:34 Subject: Sharpening with Diamond Paste Galoots: While we are smack dab in the middle of a discussion on blade sharpening, flattening the backs, and back bevels, here comes the Japan Woodworker with a new product called Diamond Paste. http://www.japanwoodworker.com/search.asp?s=JapanWoodworker Have any of you tried it? And what kind of success did you have? Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130173 (thread 50413) ---- From: kjworz@c... Date: 2004-03-05 17:27:59 Subject: Re: Sharpening with Diamond Paste I did see Garrett Hack use a smidgeon of diamond paste to sharpen a plane blade. He put that smidgeon (hald a pea size) on his old arkansas stone to make it go faster. Neato idea. I'm sure he used as fine a grit of paste as his stone was, but... who knows. It does make me wanna try it. -- -Chris Schwartz, Ex-Brewer Stealth #97 Silver Spring, MD > Galoots: > > While we are smack dab in the middle of a discussion on blade > sharpening, flattening the backs, and back bevels, here comes the > Japan Woodworker with a new product called Diamond Paste. > http://www.japanwoodworker.com/search.asp?s=JapanWoodworker > > Have any of you tried it? And what kind of success did you have? > > Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana > > ---- Start of Message 130199 (thread 50413) ---- From: "John Truxell-Svenson" Date: 2004-03-05 20:05:05 Subject: Re: Sharpening with Diamond Paste "Richard J. Hucker" wrote on 03/05/2004 02:27:34 AM: > While we are smack dab in the middle of a discussion on blade sharpening, > flattening the backs, and back bevels, here comes the Japan Woodworker with > a new product called Diamond Paste. > http://www.japanwoodworker.com/search.asp?s=JapanWoodworker > > Have any of you tried it? And what kind of success did you have? There was a longish thread at WoodCentral at http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/handtools.pl?read=20510 on this a while back, with the consensus being that cast iron is the best substrate for heavy work. The problem with softer stuff such as MDF is that the diamonds get embedded too far, and don't cut as efficiently as they do when held securely in iron plate, and there is no good way to clear swarf, wasting a lot of paste when changing to a new piece of substrate. The main hurdle is finding or making very flat iron plates for each grit--commercial ones are pricey, and precision scraping is non-trivial. I have had good results from using .5 micron paste on maple for final honing, after 2000 grit paper or 8000 grit waterstones (it works particularly well with very hard A2 and S53 steels). The larger grits definitely embed too far in maple to be as effective as they could be (I have never tried MDF), and waterstones cut fast enough that I have never been tempted to go all the way and find iron lapping plates or scrape my own. Bill Tindall has done a lot of experimenting with this on CPM V3 alloy tools and I'm sure be willing to answer any specific questions--his e-mail address is in the WC post. /jvs ___________________________________________________________ John Truxell-Svenson, Northern Virginia ---- Start of Message 130218 (thread 50413) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-06 02:28:26 Subject: Re: Sharpening with Diamond Paste Interesting conversation but I have to question if it is not just more sharpening snobbery. The only reason one ever NEEDS diamond is to sharpen carbide and sometimes working already kilned ceramics. I have read that silicon carbide and carborundum when they break, due to their crystalline molecular structure, form new cutting edges AS THE GRIT GETS CRUSHED TO SMALLER BITS. This means the more you work it the more the grit goes from sharpening to lapping towards POLISHING sized grit. As well as exposing brand new cutting edges. This makes it the ideal lapping material. As for the "cleaning the swarf" or whatever they called it I have to wonder if their snobbish attitude hasn't left them devoid of all common sense. All they would have to do to conserve and reuse the diamond paste is to thin it down with a suitable thinner (I don't know if it is oil or water based) to loosen it and put it in a plastic container with a magnet underneathe it and pour off the now thinned down diamond paste, let it dry a bit and reuse it. Or in the case of the brass/mylar/ or MDF plate put a little thinner on it, place a sheet of waxed paper above it and on that a magnet. Remove the magnet and wax paper together then throw away the waxed paper with only the metal being removed from the diamond lapping plate. Reuse. John Truxell-Svenson wrote to Richard: > "Richard J. Hucker" wrote on 03/05/2004 02:27:34 AM: > > > While we are smack dab in the middle of a discussion on blade sharpening, > > flattening the backs, and back bevels, here comes the Japan Woodworker > with > > a new product called Diamond Paste. > > http://www.japanwoodworker.com/search.asp?s=JapanWoodworker > > > > Have any of you tried it? And what kind of success did you have? > > There was a longish thread at WoodCentral at > http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/handtools.pl?read=20510 on this a wh ---- Start of Message 130230 (thread 50413) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-06 12:43:16 Subject: Re: Sharpening with Diamond Paste Chris wrote : > I did see Garrett Hack use a smidgeon of diamond paste to sharpen > a plane blade. He put that smidgeon (hald a pea size) on his old > arkansas stone to make it go faster. Neato idea. I'm sure he used > as fine a grit of paste as his stone was, but... who knows. It > does make me wanna try it. Isn't an arkansas stone harder that steel ? If it is then all he's doing is honing his stone as the bits will embed themselves in the steel first. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ++++ End of thread 50413 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50414 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130153 (thread 50414) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-04 22:40:30 Subject: ??? --- Andy Barss wrote: snip...the US has more trees now than it did 150 years ago. Hi Andy: Care to elucidate? The casual observer would say less. Is this a "Healthy Forests" stat? best to you; gAM __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130154 (thread 50414) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 2004-03-05 02:10:35 Subject: Re: ??? On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:40:30 -0800 (PST), gary may wrote: >--- Andy Barss wrote: >snip...the US has more trees now than it did 150 years ago. >Hi Andy: >Care to elucidate? The casual observer would say less. Is this a >"Healthy Forests" stat? > best to you; gAM Perhaps Andy or someone else will elucidate, but I have read that, at least in the Northeast, there is greater forest cover than there was 150, 200, or more years ago. Basically, forest has filled farmland. Even the land that is now suburbs or extended suburbs includes substantial forestation that was not there in the early years of the country, having been cleared for farming. I don't have a ready cite for you, though. Michael D. Sullivan Bethesda, MD (USA) ---- Start of Message 130156 (thread 50414) ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-03-05 02:29:43 Subject: Re: ??? > --- Andy Barss wrote: > > snip...the US has more trees now than it did 150 years ago. > > Hi Andy: > Care to elucidate? The casual observer would say less. Is this a > "Healthy Forests" stat? > best to you; gAM Ohh, Lord. Here we go again. Gary, how 'bout you set the WayBack Machine to 119073 and read again, at least to my post (119162), point #4. I still don't have the exact reference(s), but Andy is correct, especially in the eastern half of the country. The death of the family farm has had a big influence, as many fallow acres have become reforested. Hmmm, still wondering whether Todd celebrated July 4th last year in a new way. Charlie Driggs ---- Start of Message 130168 (thread 50414) ---- From: Andy Barss Date: 2004-03-05 13:05:15 Subject: Re: ??? On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Michael D. Sullivan wrote: > On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:40:30 -0800 (PST), gary may wrote: > > >snip...the US has more trees now than it did 150 years ago. > > >Hi Andy: > >Care to elucidate? The casual observer would say less. Is this a > >"Healthy Forests" stat? I can't seem to dig up the proper source -- I'm pretty sure I read it in a reputable place, but maybe I'm misremembering. It certainly is true of New England -- much of its original forests were cut down in the 18th and 19th centuries for farmland and fuel, and have reforested since. But maybe I'm wrong about the broader situation. -- Andy ---- Start of Message 130177 (thread 50414) ---- From: Bill Kasper Date: 2004-03-05 15:52:05 Subject: Re: ??? in the last decade i've seen an outstanding article in, i believe, the atlantic monthly, articles in journals such as bioscience, and individual articles in journals that cater particularly to academics. i don't remember exactly when the atlantic article was published, but iirc it was since 1995. bill felton, ca On Mar 5, 2004, at 12:05 PM, Andy Barss wrote: > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Michael D. Sullivan wrote: > >> On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:40:30 -0800 (PST), gary may wrote: >> >>> snip...the US has more trees now than it did 150 years ago. >> >>> Hi Andy: >>> Care to elucidate? The casual observer would say less. Is this a >>> "Healthy Forests" stat? > > > I can't seem to dig up the proper source -- I'm pretty sure I > read it in a reputable place, but maybe I'm misremembering. > It certainly is true of New England -- much of its original > forests were cut down in the 18th and 19th centuries for farmland > and fuel, and have reforested since. But maybe I'm wrong about > the broader situation. > > -- Andy > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 130189 (thread 50414) ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-03-05 12:34:18 Subject: Re: ??? All depends on what you are measuring. "Forested land" in the United States is generally belived to have declined rom 1600 to about WWI, and to have slightly increased after that. The increase has been accelerating. Number of trees has probably increased, both because of less maturity and because of greater numbers of dispersed trees that are not counted in "forested land". From the air, 40 year old suburbs often look foliated because of mature dispersed trees. Anthropologists will indicate that there may have been a very substantial decline in forested area between 0 B.C. and 1600 -- the Great Plains are theorizedt o have been a man-made construct created by fires set by Indians to make travel easier. The principal arguments are over the source of the fires, not that much of the Great Plains was once forested. John Lederer Oregon , Wisconsin Michael D. Sullivan wrote: >On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:40:30 -0800 (PST), gary may wrote: > > > > >>--- Andy Barss wrote: >> >> > > > >>snip...the US has more trees now than it did 150 years ago. >> >> > > > >>Hi Andy: >>Care to elucidate? The casual observer would say less. Is this a >>"Healthy Forests" stat? >> best to you; gAM >> >> > >Perhaps Andy or someone else will elucidate, but I have read that, at >least in the Northeast, there is greater forest cover than there was 150, >200, or more years ago. Basically, forest has filled farmland. Even the >land that is now suburbs or extended suburbs includes substantial >forestation that was not there in the early years of the country, having >been cleared for farming. I don't have a ready cite for you, though. > >Michael D. Sullivan >Bethesda, MD (USA) > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > ++++ End of thread 50414 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50415 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130155 (thread 50415) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 2004-03-05 02:17:14 Subject: Slightly OT: New use for shellac We all know that shellac is the ultimate, universal finish. We all know that shellac is so safe it's used to coat pills and candies. What we didn't know is that this bug excretion is also an essential element of Hollywood's ultimate extravaganza, the Oscars: "Last year was the 75th anniversary so we really explored the history of the Oscars, the art deco look of the '30s and '40s," Christopher said. "This year we're taking a more sophisticated, contemporary, sleeker approach." As he talks, sculptor Beth Schmidt begins to layer one of the prone gray statues with clear shellac and whisper-thin leaves of aluminum. Once coated, the silvery statue will be painted with a clear finish that is tinted yellow, giving the figure a transparent sheen that is prettier beneath the lights than simple gold paint. Michael D. Sullivan Bethesda, MD (USA) ---- Start of Message 130180 (thread 50415) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-05 07:07:40 Subject: RE: Slightly OT: New use for shellac > As he talks, sculptor Beth Schmidt begins to layer one of the prone > gray statues with clear shellac and whisper-thin leaves of aluminum. > Once coated, the silvery statue will be painted with a clear finish > that is tinted yellow, giving the figure a transparent sheen that is > prettier beneath the lights than simple gold paint. > > AID=/20040215/NEWS/202150346/1027/FEATURES01> > > > > Michael D. Sullivan > Bethesda, MD (USA) I couldn't get the link to work but that doesn't surprise me because I have seen gold leafing treated that way. It sounds like they are using a similiar technique with a different metal. Some actress was on a late night tv talk show mentioned something about not being able to sell an Oscar, either. That they apparently first have to offer it back to the academy for one dollar or somesuch. She was vague but it got me curious. Why would they do such a thing? ++++ End of thread 50415 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50416 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130166 (thread 50416) ---- From: "Tod Herrli" Date: 2004-03-05 07:14:31 Subject: Tampa Florida Dear galoots, I'll be traveling with my family this June 7th-14th to Tampa and Orlando with the family. I might have some Galoot time during my trip. Does anyone have any activities or get togethers scheduled in that area? Tod Herrli Mississinewa Valley Planes ---- Start of Message 130196 (thread 50416) ---- From: JPagona@a... Date: 2004-03-05 20:00:43 Subject: Re: Tampa Florida In a message dated 3/5/2004 6:34:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, therrli@c... writes: <<>>> Hi Tod, there's nothing planned for that week, but we can plan something. This just might be a good year to have two T-BAG events. (Tomorrow the T-BAGS are meeting outside of Ocala, FL, and we're making marking/panel/pencil gauges.) We could have a cigar shave class, or maybe a gunstock scraper class, or maybe just a good old fashioned rust hunt. Ping me if you're interested. If anybody else is interested, I'd say pencil in Saturday, June 12 and Sunday, June 13, and let me know to put you on the list. One of the things I love about living in Florida is that I get to meet a lot of Galoots who are passing through. David Sobel Tampa, FL So Martin, any chance you'll be visiting your mother that week? ++++ End of thread 50416 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50417 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130167 (thread 50417) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-05 12:47:53 Subject: Planes and such I finally got around to taking pictures of all my planes and suchlike. =A0http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/ (planes and such) There are a couple of other interesting things there too. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA= ---- Start of Message 130251 (thread 50417) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-07 05:08:40 Subject: RE: Planes and such Lots of interesting stuff there. I breezed around this time around. The one thing that surprised me was on the wagon wheel, closing the ring gap. When I saw Roy make a wheel they heated up the uncut ring to expand it, placed it over the wood wheel and then quickly poured water on the ring to shrink it and protect the wood from burning obviously. No mention, ever, of a ring gap. I remember you also said it had shouldered tenons and was surprised when I said the one I saw the exact replica built on Roy's show did not have shouldered tenons. Maybe they differed in different parts of the country? Why would one have what looked like a butt joint ring gap and the other have none? I suspect the other was probably scarfed together in a forge weld so even if any signs of its being connected came together it would not have an obvious ring gap. I liked the chisels a lot but I never saw a picture of the pfeil ones you've previously mentioned. > [Original Message] > From: Jim Thompson > To: oldtools > Date: 3/5/2004 5:37:44 PM > Subject: [oldtools] Planes and such > > I finally got around to taking pictures of all my planes and suchlike. > >  http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/ (planes and such) > > There are a couple of other interesting things there too. > > > > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ++++ End of thread 50417 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50418 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130169 (thread 50418) ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-03-05 08:57:10 Subject: re: big tiimber WAS Galoots and plastics >> > >> > The push to get these products to market obviously arises from the >> > diminishing supply of timber that can be sawed into whole, real-wood >> > boards. >> I'm not sure that's true. There are certainly fewer *really* big >> trees that can be sawn into extremely wide boards, but the US has >> more trees now than it did 150 years ago. Not to mention the Eastern Russian republics have forests the size of the U= nited States, anyone know of an importer of Russian wood? Those trees over= there are gonna be huge.. Epson Inkjet Printer FAQ: http://home.att.net/~arwomack01/index.html 24 Days to MH automation: http://alan.firebin.net/24_days.html --=20 This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ---- Start of Message 130206 (thread 50418) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-05 17:52:11 Subject: re: big tiimber WAS Galoots and plastics Hi Alan-- According to the Columbia Encyclopedia, the Soviet Union and the US together produce half the world's lumber, as of 1990. It's a toss-up which area produces more from year to year. The 1933 edition makes no mention of the USSR, but credits the US with half of the world's lumber supply. and that ain't hay; GAM in West Seattle, formerly an immense forest. --- Alan Womack wrote: the Eastern Russian republics have forests the size of the United States, anyone know of an importer of Russian wood? Those trees over there are gonna be huge.. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130308 (thread 50418) ---- From: "YARROW, GARY" Date: 2004-03-08 14:22:09 Subject: RE: big tiimber WAS Galoots and plastics A very large amount of timber is imported from Russia and other countries of the former USSR, as well as Finland and Sweden. If you have a job with lots of 2 X 4, and go to places like Home Depot, look at end stamps. A lot is marked as Russian, Finnish or Swedish. They are not big trees, however, given the climatic conditions, its surprisingly that the grow at all. Some scientists now believe that the deforestation of the arboreal forests might be as bad, if not worse, than the deforestation of rain forests. Rain forests can regenerate "relatively" quickly, but the arboreals take a long, long time (i.e., cold and dry). The US has become a net importer of wood, especially construction grade stuff. Mainly from Canada, but also the counties above. Of course, there are arguments why: political, legal, environmental, etc., etc. But, lets face it, the now common saying "global economy" is true. Gary ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dr. Gary L. Yarrow, Director/RSO/CCHO Environmental Health and Safety SH 059; Box 2202 South Dakota State University Brookings, SD 57007-0796 605-688-6332 > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Womack [mailto:arwbackup@w...] > Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 10:57 AM > To: oldtools > Subject: re: [oldtools] big tiimber WAS Galoots and plastics > > > >> > > >> > The push to get these products to market obviously > arises from the > >> > diminishing supply of timber that can be sawed into > whole, real-wood > >> > boards. > > >> I'm not sure that's true. There are certainly fewer *really* big > >> trees that can be sawn into extremely wide boards, but the US has > >> more trees now than it did 150 years ago. > > Not to mention the Eastern Russian republics have forests the > size of the United States, anyone know of an importer of > Russian wood? Those trees over there are gonna be huge.. > > > > > Epson Inkjet Printer FAQ: http://home.att.net/~arwomack01/index.html > > 24 Days to MH automation: http://alan.firebin.net/24_days.html > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ++++ End of thread 50418 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50419 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130174 (thread 50419) ---- From: paul r morin Date: 2004-03-05 14:09:13 Subject: 71 / o71 Router Plane Manuals (arched throat type) now on-line. Both the Record and Stanley manuals are now available. They are in one largish file (3.2 MB) in pdf format. Sorry, I didn't zip them separately. They can be downloaded from: www.cranialstorage.com/RouterPlaneManuals.zip (entering the link should start them on a download process) for anyone else that would like them. They both cover the newer arched throat style. Good routing. -- It is hard to fight against anger, for a man will buy revenge with his soul. - Heraclities, 500BC Paul R Morin Calgary, Alberta, Canada www.cranialstorage.com/wood ++++ End of thread 50419 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50420 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130175 (thread 50420) ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-03-05 16:56:43 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sharpening's_nothing_to_get_cut_up_about=2E_=28Very_long?= and bo Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about. The Bootstrap Galoot's notes on starting sharpening There has been a plethora of postings to the list about sharpening, and different ways to go about it. It really isn't a surprise that the subject comes up again and again, for it is the one skill which differentiates hand workers from their tailed counterparts. Despite all the specialised tools, hand work all comes down to needing to be able to sharpen them correctly. Most folk simply do not know what 'sharp' is in this context. Nowadays we don't have a need for 'sharp' implements. Razors are thrown away when dull, kitchen knives are dull in most households, and after that - what else in a modern house needs to be sharp=3F So we've lost the tribal knowledge we once had. Modern wood tools come with throw away cutters, or they need to be reground by specialists. Only a few of us need to make a metal edge sharp enough to work with hard timbers. And we are so thinly spread that we rarely have the opportunity to receive 'apprentice training' and be doused in curses by the master until we become capable. Neither do we have to spend a couple of years practicing. We want and need 'instant' results. So how to go about sharpening in a way that will produce wonderful results we can be proud of=3F A century ago oilstones were the best way to produce = keen edges on the steel used in old chisels and tools. In the Orient, they used stones with water to do the same thing. Then came manufactured stones, with consistent cutting qualities, and coated abrasives, and finally come motorised versions of all these, which reduces the manual effort needed. Notice that I don't think the required skill has decreased much with motorised wheels - the skill is surely in knowing when to stop, not in holding metal against a rotating surface. But what do we want to achieve, and is it the same for all tools, or are there special techniques and magics for sharpening plane irons versus other tools=3F There are certainly two types of tool to be concerned with -= edged tools and toothed tools. Pedants may observe that a saw is merely a large number of small knives, or chisels. Whilst admitting that to be the case, we can still regard sharpening them as being very different to sharpening most other edge tools. The simplest case is the plane blade, chisel, or marking knife - the very epitome of 'sharp on a stick' by which I mean an unguarded sharpened edge on the end of something. Most tools are simple 'sharp on a stick' plus some sort of device for limiting the cut. The more device, the less skill is needed, so an adze or axe demands more of its user than does a bench plane. They both require to be sharp, and as sharp as each other, for they are both doing the same job of slicing wood fibres. A sharp edge is the meeting point of two (flat) surfaces, and for most woodworking jobs, an angle of about 30 degrees between the surfaces will be about right. Don't bother to write in and tell me that a burflwang needs to be at 40 degrees, or a wingpiff has to be at 20. I'm generalising, for the aim of our exercise is simply to produce two flat surfaces which come together, and a sensible figure is 30 for practice. If we're a complete beginner to the fun, excitement, quiet and satisfaction of sharpening, then where do we start=3F Well, throw away everything that everyone has told you about sharpening systems - stones, waterbaths, jigs and all the rest. If you've risen to the realisation that hand tools are a) Good Things and b) Need Sharpening, then you are already ahead of the pack. All you need to know, and remember is that you want those two surfaces to come together and meet. There is lots of rubbish hotly discussed about hollow grinding, dubbing over, rounding your bevel (bezel) angles, and lots more. Disregard it all. If you came this far, you have the intuition to realise that you need just the two surfaces. All the discussion that comes about is how to make two meeting surfaces easily and quickly. Being human, we each defend our way of doing things, and being human, we try new things, and accumulate more stones, and jigs, and listen to the snake oil merchant who tells us that diamond impregnated stones are the wonderful new and best way of sharpening, if only we hand over some of our taxed earnings. Well, it may be. It may not. If you sell them, they're best. If you buy them, they're best. If you just paid the same or more money for ceramic stones, they're not the best. If you have no money, then the oilstones my grandfather used were good enough for him, and really *knew* about these, and so they're good enough for me. But it's just two surfaces remember. The only issue is how to remove metal in a quick and controlled manner to get two surfaces. If we used a coarse grit, the surface are like ploughed fields, and the join is rough. If we use very fine grit, the surface is like a raked field, then like a rolled field, and the join becomes smoother and smoother. The smoother the join, the less the jaggy bits dig in and the sharper it is. So I've already mentioned grit sizes. All stones and abrasives have grit - little angular particles which dig into the metal and remove tiny dust size motes. Bigger grit removes bigger bits and cuts 'faster' but leaves bigger furrows. When the particle becomes blunt and can no longer dig into the metal, the metal hitting it will break it free of the substrate it is bound to, whether it is natural, artificial, or a coated abrasive. Eventually an abrasive sheet will be blunt and smooth, and a stone will be dipped and worn and need flattening. But this isn't about systems. Lets sharpen a plane blade by picking the cheapest system around. Who named it 'Scary Sharp' =3F With the advent of= coated abrasives, it's very feasible to sharpen tools with throw away abrasive. Initial costs are low, and because you are using fresh and sharp abrasive in a larger range of grit sizes, results are quick and predictable. In the last century everyone sharpened by placing a blob of oil on the stone and rubbing the tool back and forth. (Oil helps to prevent the tiny bits of removed metal from staying in the spaces between the grit and clogging up the stone. Eventually they would fill the spaces, then the grit isn't sticking out of the surface any more and the cutting stops. Water is also used for the same reason ) The trouble with this 'freehand' method is that it is very, very difficult to maintain a constant angle as you rub, both as the stroke moves along the stone, and between strokes. The result is that instead of two flat planes meeting, you produce two curved surfaces which meet. Now, this could be OK, and most times it is, for it is only the very edge, the meeting point, which is doing work, but we've increased the angle so that instead of our 30 degrees, the actual angle may be at 40, or 50 degrees, and the shaving which is produced has to be bent more to ride up over the brow of the hill we created. Personally, I think everyone should set about practicing to be able to sharpen by hand. If you do, then a good way to do so is to take some plywood the size of a plane blade, and some coarse grit (say 60 or 100) abrasive, glued down to a block of flat wood about stone size. Then sharpen your plywood. The stripes in the wood give a good clue to keeping the angle flat and even, and the action is the same. Use a plane to round over the bevel a bit, then hand sharpen it back again. But back at our plane blade, procure some abrasive sheets in varying grades. Aluminium Zirconia is said to be 'the best' - it's a cloth backed grade in a blue colour made by Norton, in various grades. Prepare a flat surface - inch thick MDF, inch plywood, lump of cast off marble tombstone, lump of float plate glass, the optically perfectly flat platen from a dead photocopier - your choice. Cut your abrasive sheets to sensible standard sizes - about 2 1 /2 inches wide and 9 or 12 inches long. Glue them down in neat rows, using a removable type adhesive. I find that wetting the back of a full sheet and placing it atop a surface plate is adequate, but it's far better to make up a board with a series of papers, so that it's always ready to use. Now you'll need some sort of device for holding the blade at a constant angle. This is more opportunity for gizmo sellers. We're doing this at minimum cost though, so make a sharpening box. This is 4 pieces of ply or mdf, to make a rectangle open top and bottom perhaps half as long again as your strips, and a touch wider. Finally you need a carriage. This can be as simple as a length of split dowel, a little longer than your box is wide. Split it at half way if it's chunky, or leave it as is if it's under about a half inch diameter. You now have a surface with strips of varying grit abrasive, a rectangle to fit over any one, and a dowel to run along the top of the long edge of the box. Place the dowel on the box, the box on the coarsest grit, and your plane blade on the dowel, so that it is angled downwards at our desired 30 degrees. A rubber band around the dowel and the blade a few times will keep the dowel in place on the blade. If you now apply pressure at the sharp end of the blade and run it back and forth you can see that the angle is held constant. The fresh abrasive cuts quickly and well, and when the bevel is finished, evidenced by a 'wire edge' appearing at the sharp end, then move the box to the next grit, and continue, repeating as many times as you have grits. 1000 grit should be very sharp, 1500 grit sharper, 2000 is looking polished. To avoid doing quite so much work, we only make the bevel angle on the coarse grit. If you look at a plane or chisel blade, you see two areas of bevel. The primary bevel is there to get the bulk of material out of the way, the secondary bevel is where all the intensive polishing goes on. Once you have that large primary bevel, alter the angle by 5 degrees, and take just a few strokes on each grit, moving quickly through the range, with perhaps only a 32nd of an inch at the tip being sharpened. On successive sharpening, you just work this tiny area, making the sharpening go very quickly, but the bevel a bit bigger each time, until eventually you need to re-establish that primary bevel Remember too, that our sharp edge needs two surfaces, so the somewhat tedious process of 'flattening the back' is required. This is merely the same process for the other face - which is usually the back of the blade. Placing it flat down and rubbing back and forth through the grits until a polished surface you can see yourself in is generally a long job, but it only needs doing once, and can be touched up on the very finest grade on each successive sharpening. No need to do the whole back either - only that very edge is concerned with being sharp. Some folk lift the far side of the back by a steel ruler's thickness to produce that final edge - called a 'back bevel' - which, should you choose to do so, must be no more than a stroke or two, else the cutting edge will no longer be in line with the back, and you will never be able to pare to a line successfully, but will have produced a carving chisel accidentally. Be sure to work enough at each grit to remove all marks of the previous one, and to be sure that your freshly abraded surface goes right to the edge and beyond it. One of the 'rounding over' problems of freehanding is that you tend to go not quite far enough to shape the very edge. So there you should have it - a very sharp blade, looking very like a mirror on one or perhaps two slivers of reflection at the very edge of the blade. Improve on the 'lump of dowel' I described for the sharpening box. A simple clamp by arranging a bolt with wing nut through a runner, a slotted runner for chisels - all easy to conceive and make - and simple, and cheap to start up, and pretty much guaranteed to give good results. And make up some sticks to indicate how far the blade should project to give your preferred angles. Or mark the edge of your box so you can repeat the set up quickly and easily. Now that you know what the sharpness is that you seek, try other methods. Evaluate other jigs for holding the blades. Consider how that diamond impregnated ceramic oilstone is going to compare, and if its cost is worth its value. This abrasive papers method is cheap to start up, but may be costly if you're using lots of papers, compared to a waterstone or oilstone. You may find a bench grinder useful to speed up removing masses of metal to make the primary bevel - but it can destroy the temper of the steel by overheating it. - a slow speed grinder and cool cutting wheel would be better. Water cooled systems are even better - slow speed waterstones either horizontally or vertically. But they all do the same thing. Its very simple, and needs no magic. Just keep chanting the mantra "two planes meeting, two planes meeting" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ++++ End of thread 50420 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50421 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130179 (thread 50421) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-05 06:48:41 Subject: Straightening Auger Bits I could use a bit of help on the topic of auger bits. What I want to know is a little background about what kind of metal technology is in these old things. Are they hardened at the end? Are they malleable iron? How can I take out bends? Now I'll give you the situation. After all these recent discussions I was going through them and decided to use the 3/8ths for a pocket hole jig I recently built from scratch. So I find three number 6s and unlike the bigger ones these all seem to have some degree of bend to them so I am wondering how I can restraighten them? I'm pretty sure the current bends won't allow them to fit through the long steel insert I installed in the pockethole jig. After a little closer inspection at the business end I noticed the screws were all in great condition but upon testing them in a piece of soft pine they didn't want to keep pulling themselves in. So the ends were very dull. I got out a small needle file set and very carefully sharpened the inside angles of the outer spurs and the chisel edge itself making sure to keep my thumb in the way of the screw so if I slipped with the file it would hit my finger instead of the screw drive. After this treatment it made that nice familiar lightly squeaking sound that I remember an auger bit should make. And two of them cut very well. The last one had the spurs too mashed in so I was content to leave it alone for now since two work. To let you know what I have available I am not a huge metalworker but I do have a couple of small anvils on the vise as well as a piece of train track I salvaged for pseudo-anvil purposes. But before I go beating on these things I'd like some advice. What's the best way to straighten them? ---- Start of Message 130186 (thread 50421) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-05 16:12:51 Subject: Re: Straightening Auger Bits On Friday, March 5, 2004, at 04:48 AM, John Sawchak wrote: > I could use a bit of help on the topic of auger bits. What I want to > know > is a little background about what kind of metal technology is in these > old > things. Are they hardened at the end? Are they malleable iron? How can > I > take out bends? Auger bits can be sharpened with a file, so they are soft enough to bend back to straightness. I suggest a soft hammer and a piece of hardwood on the anvil. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130208 (thread 50421) ---- From: "John Pesut" Date: 2004-03-05 20:57:14 Subject: Re: Straightening Auger Bits I have posted an Adobe .pdf of an original Irwin auger bit manual here: http://home.att.net/~the_tinker/oldtools/irwin.pdf Straight from the proverbial horses mouth so-to-speak. See page 12... Later, > I could use a bit of help on the topic of auger bits. What I want to know > is a little background about what kind of metal technology is in these old > things. Are they hardened at the end? Are they malleable iron? How can I > take out bends? > ---- Start of Message 130214 (thread 50421) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-06 00:46:22 Subject: Re: Straightening Auger Bits Must have a lot of moisture in the phone lines because that thing took forever to download. We just got a really sloppy snowstorm that has come through in the past two days here in MN. Many many thanks for that, John. I just read it completely through. Interesting to learn of the specialty bits for sap tapping and the different head designs. Most of mine seem like the medium drive but I will keep the fine screw ones in mind for hardwood applications. I'm surprised they don't go more into sharpening those. And it didn't say much about straightening, either, but it did tell me the most important thing I will keep in mind when restraightening those smaller abused auger bits. That the head is slightly larger than the body of the twist, imitating a saw's kerf in function, so I will hang that off the edge of whatever surface I straighten it on. Thanks again! John Pesut said: > I have posted an Adobe .pdf of an original > Irwin auger bit manual here: > > http://home.att.net/~the_tinker/oldtools/irwin.pdf ++++ End of thread 50421 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50422 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130190 (thread 50422) ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-03-05 07:35:57 Subject: Re: ??? new forests Various galoots wrote: > >snip...the US has more trees now than it did 150 > years ago. > > Perhaps Andy or someone else will elucidate, but I > have read that, at > least in the Northeast, there is greater forest > cover than there was 150, > 200, or more years ago. Basically, forest has > filled farmland. Even the > land that is now suburbs or extended suburbs > includes substantial > forestation that was not there in the early years of > the country, having > been cleared for farming. Of course, this new "forest" is a mixture of exotic foreign species, non-timber trees, and occassionally some crop trees planted in rows, using seed or transplants from some other part of the country or world. The original native species are few and far between, replaced by either ornamentals, scrubby weed trees, or fast growing trees planted for quick production of wood fiber for quick profit, rather than quality wood for future generations. Don't get me started on this. ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130202 (thread 50422) ---- From: "Sanford Moss" Date: 2004-03-05 20:31:41 Subject: Re: ??? new forests Jim and others wrote: >> Basically, forest has > > filled farmland. Even the > > land that is now suburbs or extended suburbs > > includes substantial > > forestation that was not there in the early years of > > the country, having > > been cleared for farming. > >Of course, this new "forest" is a mixture of exotic >foreign species, non-timber trees, and occassionally >some crop trees planted in rows, using seed or >transplants from some other part of the country or >world. The original native species are few and far >between, replaced by either ornamentals, scrubby weed >trees, or fast growing trees planted for quick >production of wood fiber for quick profit, rather >than quality wood for future generations. >Don't get me started on this. Hey, why not? Here in southern and central New England that reforestation has generally involved native species like red & white oaks, white pine, American beech, hemlock and cedar. I don't see much in the way of exotic, non-native species in my walks through the secondary and tertiary forests. It may be different in the upper mid-west. It is a bit of a stretch to think that the clearing of New England was due to what we traditionally think of "farming"--the raising of vegetable, grain, and orchard crops. The first wave of extensive deforestation was in the name of timber in New England (17th, 18th, and early 19th centuries). The second wave, in the middle and late 19th century, was for land clearing for agriculture (and firewood), but that agriculture was dominated by raising sheep for the wool to feed the New Englad textile mills (old tool content coming). This era of our history coincides with the great burst of mechanical invention that is the grist for our current old tool mill. Those stone walls, that snake endlessly through today's New England forests, at one time enclosed sheep pastures more than crop fields. Only after the textile industry migrated south, in the early 20th century, did the regrowth of New England forests begin to occur. The American Civil War also had a hand in this deforestation, as it really provided a stimulus for woolen goods, wood for fuel (especially on railroads), and other raw materials. For example, if you pass through the town of Mattapoissett on I-195, east of New Bedford heading to Cape Cod, the otherwise ubiquitous stone walls disappear. This is because there was a crushing mill in Mattapoisett during the Civil War that used the stones from the local field walls to make ballast, which was shipped south for new railroads beds constructed in the war effort. Another interesting effect of the land clearing for sheep farming, and the demands of the Civil War, was the complete extirpation of white tail deer and black bear from southern New England in the 1860s, and great reductions in their numbers in New York and Pennsylvania. In addition to the habitat changes, these animals suffered year round hunting pressure to provide meat for the Union armies. Deer actually had to be introduced from New Brunswick, Canada, to re-establish their populations in Massachusetts after the forests came back. Now, of course, we have too god damn many of them! Sandy _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ---- Start of Message 130203 (thread 50422) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-05 17:35:52 Subject: Re: ??? new forests Hi Jim: Now that I think about it, 1850 would have been a pretty well logged period in US history---I don't think anyone's saying that there are more trees around North America than there were in 1600. After 250 years of log cabin building and several decades of RR access to the midwest, well, there was a serious dent in the Eastern US forests. And there are definitely more trees on the prairie than before. I know it ain't true, but I keep telling myself that any tree is a good tree. best to you; GAM --- Jim Erdman wrote: >I > > have read that, at > > least in the Northeast, there is greater forest > > cover than there was 150, > > 200, or more years ago. Basically, forest has > > filled farmland. Even the > > land that is now suburbs or extended suburbs > > includes substantial > > forestation that was not there in the early years of > > the country, having > > been cleared for farming. > > Of course, this new "forest" is a mixture of exotic > foreign species, non-timber trees, and occassionally > some crop trees planted in rows, using seed or > transplants from some other part of the country or > world. The original native species are few and far > between __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130207 (thread 50422) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-05 20:53:29 Subject: Re: ??? new forests > Here in southern and central New England that reforestation has > generally involved native species like red & white oaks, white > pine, American beech, hemlock and cedar. I don't see much in the > way of exotic, non-native species in my walks through the As this thread started from the notion that we wouldn't have wood, dare I mention that the land mass that is New England is rather incidental in the scheme of things. For instance, the province in which I live produces 80% of the maple syrup used in the world. New Englanders don't like to believe that the stuff is produced elsewhere but.... And so is the wood. Besides, the sheetwood substitutes that were mentioned have nothing to do with replacement of hardwood but rather softwoods. Further, I suspect you could find ample proof that lack of softwood supplies are not the reason but rather to provide better insulation, better water resistance, etc. When it comes to softwoods, this little spot of land to your north also produces a fair bit of the stuff. When the Bush administration bowed to the wood syndicates and slapped stiff tariffs on softwood from Canada, it was hard to tell who was screaming the loudest - the Canadian producers or the US housing industry. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130212 (thread 50422) ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-03-05 21:39:11 Subject: Re: ??? new forests Martin Creveld wrote a book about the history of military logistics about 20 years ago. It was a bit of a revolution in military history because it explained things such as the fabled continual movement of Gustavus Adolphus's disproportionately mounted army in terms of the necessity of continually moving to find sufficient fodder for the horses. I have forgotten the figure, but it took a sizable area of grass to keep a big charger fed. A book I read about the the life of immigrant homesteaders suggested that about half of their tillable acres were devoted to fodder for their draft animals. So replacing oxen, horses, and mules with the gasoline engine might have had a big effect on forestation. I know that as I rust hunt, I am continually and pleasantly surprised by the amount of stuff I find devoted to draft animals and their care. I suspect an ox yoke was the first and most essential galoot project for many immigrants. I have to confess to having a full harness for a pair of draft horses in my garage attic -- it was an auction, it was cheap, and it had bells..... SWMBO made me get rid of the cast iron horse drawn road grader I had from the same auction. Claimed it blocked the drive, and did not buy my reasoning that we could use it to clear the drive of snow. John Lederer Oregon , Wisconsin > > It is a bit of a stretch to think that the clearing of New England was > due to what we traditionally think of "farming"--the raising of > vegetable, grain, and orchard crops. The first wave of extensive > deforestation was in the name of timber in New England (17th, 18th, > and early 19th centuries). The second wave, in the middle and late > 19th century, was for land clearing for agriculture (and firewood), > but that agriculture was dominated by raising sheep for the wool to > feed the New Englad textile mills (old tool content coming). This era > of our history coincides with the great burst of mechanical invention > that is the grist for our current old tool mill. Those stone walls, > that snake endlessly through today's New England forests, at one time > enclosed sheep pastures more than crop fields. Only after the > textile industry migrated south, in the early 20th century, did the > regrowth of New England forests begin to occur. > > ---- Start of Message 130270 (thread 50422) ---- From: Paul Honore Date: 2004-03-07 16:12:48 Subject: Re: ??? new forests At 08:31 PM 3/5/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Jim and others wrote: > >>> Basically, forest has >> > filled farmland. Even the >> > land that is now suburbs or extended suburbs >> > includes substantial >> > forestation that was not there in the early years of >> > the country, having >> > been cleared for farming. >> >>Of course, this new "forest" is a mixture of exotic >>foreign species, non-timber trees, and occassionally >>some crop trees planted in rows, using seed or >>transplants from some other part of the country or >>world. The original native species are few and far >>between, replaced by either ornamentals, scrubby weed >>trees, or fast growing trees planted for quick >>production of wood fiber for quick profit, rather >>than quality wood for future generations. >>Don't get me started on this. > Another reason why the forests were cleared, particularly in the Northeast was the never ending demand for charcoal to fire the primitive blast furnaces of the 19th century. Even after the Bessemer process was developed in the 1850s, the demand for charcoal continued well into the 20th century. The area extending from the Hudson River to the Housatonic in Connecticut was particularly rich in ore and was a center of iron production from NY/Connecticut to Vermont. I recall reading that a cord of hardwood makes about 40 bushels of charcoal and a typical furnace in those days used about 1200 bushels a day. Doesn't take long to de-forest an area at that rate. Must have been a nasty, dirty job producing all that charcoal The Bessemer process finally won out in the early 20th century and most of the old furnaces just tumbled away, although the one on the grounds of the Sloane-Stanley Museum in Kent CT has been nicely restored. Paul Honore waiting for more snow in Hebron CT Connecticut Rivers were ---- Start of Message 130271 (thread 50422) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-07 13:25:34 Subject: Re: ??? new forests Hi Paul: At a good friend's wedding a few summers ago, I met his father, the chief engineer of a wood-burning electrical plant in Michigan---one can only assume that there are more of these around---another reason to say "NO" to plugs, IYAM---- best to all galoots; GAM --- Paul Honore wrote: > Another reason why the forests were cleared, particularly in the Northeast was the never ending demand for charcoal to fire the primitive blast furnaces of the 19th century. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 50422 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50423 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130191 (thread 50423) ---- From: Tom Dewey Date: 2004-03-05 15:43:37 Subject: For Metallic Plane Co Collectors I have recently acquired a 20" Metallic Plane Co. jointer in good to very good condition. The usual broken off tip of the tote which has been adequately repaired is the only bad feature. Original japaning, original iron (Clover Leaf), etc. I cleaned it up a bit, honed the iron, and would put it to use except that I already have sufficient bench planes. It is identical to the one Jon Zimmerman has listed on his website. I note that it incorporates a feature I haven't seen on metallic planes before: two approx. 3/8" X 1/8" brass pins set into the casting just abaft the mouth opening upon which the blade rests. Was this feature standard from the beginning of production, or, perhaps retro-fitted later? Just curious. If anyone is collecting these feel free to let me know. ++++ End of thread 50423 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50424 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130200 (thread 50424) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-05 17:22:15 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about. (Very long and boring) On Friday, March 5, 2004, at 08:56 AM, Richard.Wilson@s... wrote: > > There has been a plethora of postings to the list about sharpening, and > different ways to go about it. It really isn't a surprise that the > subject comes up again and again, for it is the one skill which > differentiates hand workers from their tailed counterparts. > Despite all the specialised tools, hand work all comes down to needing > to > be able to sharpen them correctly. Hear, HEAR! From now on I suggest that all who post a sharpening question be required to read Richard's treatise before the assembled galooterati try to explain it again. Excellent post! Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130216 (thread 50424) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-03-06 08:00:56 Subject: RE: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about. (Very long and boring) : -----Original Message----- : From: Richard.Wilson@s... [mailto:Richard.Wilson@s...] : Sent: 05 March 2004 16:57 : To: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about. : (Very long : and boring) : : ..................... Who named it 'Scary Sharp' ? Steve Lamantia, of fond memory, deserves credit to bringing it to the internet, though some researchers have found earlier attributions. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 130220 (thread 50424) ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-03-06 07:51:07 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about. (Very long and boring) > : ..................... Who named it 'Scary Sharp' ? > > Steve Lamantia, of fond memory, deserves credit to bringing it to the > internet, though some researchers have found earlier attributions. For reference, see the "post that started it all" at http://www.shavings.net/SCARY.HTM#original Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 130222 (thread 50424) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 2004-03-07 00:01:37 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about. (Very long and boring) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Love" > > Steve Lamantia, of fond memory, deserves credit to bringing it to the > > internet, though some researchers have found earlier attributions. > > > For reference, see the "post that started it all" at > > http://www.shavings.net/SCARY.HTM#original > It's amazing how this text hasn't lost any of its beauty in all the years it's been out there. A true classic. Cheers Nuno Souto in wet Sydney, Australia dbvision@o... ++++ End of thread 50424 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50425 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130201 (thread 50425) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-05 09:21:56 Subject: back bevels (was Bedrock 605 . . .) Greetings, I have been thinking about back bevels lately for the following reason: Wooden molding planes seem mostly to have been made with a 45 degree bedding angle. Some were made with steeper angles, but they seem to be rare. If you are using these 45 degree planes for straight grained wood, no problem. But if you want to use wood with interesting grain or very hard tropical wood, what do you do? It seems to be pretty well accepted that the steeper bedding angle will give better results in tearout-prone wood. But who can afford to go find sets of York pitch molding planes? So here is the question: if a back bevel can give you the effect of a steeper pitch without changing the actual bedding angle, might this not be a way to make molding planes more useful for the kind of woods used in much furniture making? I am thinking about doing some experiments with a molding plane, but would like your comments first. Blake ---- Start of Message 130211 (thread 50425) ---- From: Johnny Johnson Date: 2004-03-05 21:45:35 Subject: Re: back bevels (was Bedrock 605 . . .) At 09:21 AM 3/5/2004 -0700, Blake Ashley wrote: >So here is the question: if a back bevel can give you the effect of a >steeper pitch without changing the actual bedding angle, might this not >be a way to make molding planes more useful for the kind of woods used >in much furniture making? Hi Blake, Seems to me that putting a small back bevel on the complex edge of a molding plane might be a good trick to learn. Let me know how it turns out. Later, Johnny __________________________ Johnny Johnson Lilburn, GA mailto:jjohnso4@c... ++++ End of thread 50425 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50426 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130205 (thread 50426) ---- From: Darrell & Kathy Date: 2004-03-05 20:49:05 Subject: Re: back bevels Blake, Almost all the molding plane irons I've sharpened have arrived in my shop with back bevels on them already. Emprical evidence from my shop indicates that the oldtimers did very little to the profiles in the way of sharpening. Most of the honing was done to the back of the irons. Where the back bevels were small I flattened the backs to get rid of them. The big back-bevels I just followed what was there. So how do you get so lucky that you have a molding plane which doesn't already have a back bevel on the iron? -- Darrell Oakville ON Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User ---- Start of Message 130234 (thread 50426) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-06 15:29:55 Subject: Re: back bevels Darrell writes : >Almost all the molding plane irons I've sharpened have arrived >in my shop with back bevels on them already. Emprical evidence >from my shop indicates that the oldtimers did very little to >the profiles in the way of sharpening. Most of the honing was >done to the back of the irons. Where the back bevels were small >I flattened the backs to get rid of them. The big back-bevels >I just followed what was there. Now this is interesting. I've never seen a moulding plane with a back bevel. I've seen the recommendation to sharpen a moulding plane iron by honing the back, but lying flat as it's easy to do and helps to maintain the shape of the profile. As Scott points out, on something like a sidebead you'll probably harm the cutting action at the sides with a backbevel, if not ruin it completely. Paul ---- Start of Message 130237 (thread 50426) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-06 17:02:38 Subject: Re: back bevels Hi guys: Long ago I proposed using the term "flat" to describe the flat side of an iron or chisel--it seemed to me at the time that it would help a great deal to have an accurate term to describe the thing we're talking about. Since in nine out of ten planes, what most people call the "back" is in fact the "front" of the iron, some confusion can result. Either way, Paul, if you haven't seen a molding plane with a back bevel, you should come see mine. Most, if not all, molders I've got were sharpened up many times by honing the FLAT of the iron, and increasing the angle of attack somewhat. What most of the porch pontiffs have been talking about lately with this "back bevelling" thing is the same process...they're dispensing with the notion that the forward side of the iron in a plane needs to BE flat, and steepening the leading edge of the iron somewhat. and all the very best to you; GAM in Seattle A grizzly bear with a chainsaw-- now THERE's a killing machine---Homer Simpson --- Paul Pedersen wrote: > I've never seen a moulding plane with a back bevel. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130253 (thread 50426) ---- From: "Bill Ghio" Date: 2004-03-07 07:41:15 Subject: RE: back bevels At 09:21 AM 3/5/2004 -0700, Blake Ashley wrote: >So here is the question: if a back bevel can give you the effect of a >steeper pitch without changing the actual bedding angle, might this not >be a way to make molding planes more useful for the kind of woods used >in much furniture making? Scott Post - I've pondered this question a few times because since the very first time I took a cut with a molding plane I didn't understand why they cut so sweet even when the grain was less than straight. I think the answer might be in geometry. Most of the iron isn't cutting at the same angle as the bed. As the profile departs from the horizontal that part of the iron begins to approach a scraping cut. In fact, the sides of the round part of a bead profile are darn near to a pure scraping action. -- Darrell writes : >Almost all the molding plane irons I've sharpened have arrived >in my shop with back bevels on them already. Emprical evidence >from my shop indicates that the oldtimers did very little to >the profiles in the way of sharpening. Most of the honing was >done to the back of the irons. Where the back bevels were small >I flattened the backs to get rid of them. The big back-bevels >I just followed what was there. Now this is interesting. I've never seen a moulding plane with a back bevel. I've seen the recommendation to sharpen a moulding plane iron by honing the back, but lying flat as it's easy to do and helps to maintain the shape of the profile. As Scott points out, on something like a sidebead you'll probably harm the cutting action at the sides with a backbevel, if not ruin it completely. Paul ___________________ The porch works in mysterious ways...I was just thinking about raising this issue w/ respect to complex molders and here it is. I have found that H&R's, beads and simple molding profiles can be sharpened by honing the flat (back) of the blade. But recently I have been working w/ some complex molders and found them to have a back bevel. It appears to me that the more complex the shape, the more likely it is to have the back bevel. Could it be that creating the steeper pitch as Blake suggests has more value w/ the more complex and wider shapes? I have recently been working w/ a plane which gives a 2 inch profile, one part of which is vertical and almost 1/4 inch deep. As found, a slight back bevel extended across the more horizontal portions of the blade, but was absent from the vertical sections, which is consistent w/ Scott's proposition regarding scraping cuts. Just days after sharpening this plane, I bought two more (less complex and wide) and found both to have back bevels across the whole profile. Bill ++++ End of thread 50426 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50427 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130209 (thread 50427) ---- From: Louis Schmidt Date: 2004-03-05 21:25:28 Subject: In search of Gary Cavener Hi All, Will Gary Cavener please ping me off the list. Thank you Louis Schmidt ++++ End of thread 50427 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50428 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130210 (thread 50428) ---- From: Louis Schmidt Date: 2004-03-05 21:32:41 Subject: Any Gallots in Oxford MS? Hi All, I am considering a move to the hometown of Ole Miss and the inspiration of William Faulkner. None other than Oxford Mississippi! Any gallots from there or near there? Any advise about economy, tool availability, acceptance and what to expect from nearby(?) Memphis would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again all. Lou ++++ End of thread 50428 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50429 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130213 (thread 50429) ---- From: Louis Schmidt Date: 2004-03-06 00:17:39 Subject: WTB: Sandusky #92 Hollows 1, 3 & 9 Hi All, I am seeking hollowing planes made by the Sandusky Tool Co. (stamp "A" but will consider other stamps) in good+ or better condition. I seek the number 1, 3 & 9 hollows from the #92 hollows and rounds set. The "92" was generally stamped on the toe of the plane. Thanks Lou ++++ End of thread 50429 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50430 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130215 (thread 50430) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-06 01:26:38 Subject: OT: Magic Metal (offshoot from the Pewter Rings thread) Someone asked so I will post them here for everyone to see. Here's a typed excerpt from "Modern Chemical Magic" 1959, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 59-14380. The original hardcover I have cost 3.95 at the time of printing. I got it discarded from an old rural library -- a whole grocery brown bag full of books for a dollar if I remember correctly. pg 148 "Magical Metal As an interesting addition, the author has included in this book the formulas for two metal alloys that when prepared will melt in boiling water and may be held in the mount without danger of burning. These are the metals that resemble lead and are usually found as such in the repertoire of fire-eaters. It is not advisable that the novice try this effect as the danger of swallowing the melted metals offers a precarious problem. I Melt in a suitable dish bismuth metal, by weight, five ounces, lead metal, by weight, three ounces; tin metal, by weight, two ounces. II Melt in a suitable dish bismuth metal, by weight, eight ounces, lead metal, by weight, four ounces; tin metal, by weight two ounces; cadmium metal, by weight, two ounces. " I'm not sure what he means by mount. Maybe it was a typo and he means mouth because later he refers to fire-eating? For its time the book does seem almost blasphemous against the magician's code of not telling secrets because it has a huge amount of detail in it that assumes the book owner already knows what to do with these preparations in magic acts. The introduction is done by Harry Blackstone, the world famous magician. As a sidenote anyone who thinks these alloy formulas are just for fun are sadly mistaken. If not for this type of metallurgical knowledge we wouldn't have the safety of indoor fire sprinkler systems which use bismuth in them to detect heat levels under the boiling point of water. So I'm sure these can be experimented with and lowered even more if need be. Cadmium is a fascinating metal, too, and Cadium Sulfide (IIRC) is in large use today in every single motion light sensor, break beam alarms, garage door safety devices...etc. It is one of the few metal compounds that reacts to light by changing its electrical resistance. Hungry minds will enjoy this. ---- Start of Message 130231 (thread 50430) ---- From: Jack Kamishlian Date: 2004-03-06 13:10:15 Subject: Re: OT: Magic Metal (offshoot from the Pewter Rings thread) GGs, I'd be careful when melting metals like lead. The vapors produced are not entirely healthy. Good ventilation is a necessity. Cheers, Jack in Endwell, NY ---- Start of Message 130287 (thread 50430) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-08 08:28:43 Subject: Re: OT: Magic Metal (offshoot from the Pewter Rings thread) A similar low-melt alloy is used in gunsmiting to take casts of barrels without harming the temper. Upon cooling it shrinks allowing it to drop easily out of the barrel. And the shrink rate is known to a high degree of accuracy so the plug can be measured, a shrink factor applied, and an accurate measurement of the barrel thereby achieved. You can get it from Brownells. Make a cast of the inside of your mount just for fun. >>> "John Sawchak" 03/06/2004 12:26:38 AM >>> Someone asked so I will post them here for everyone to see. Here's a typed excerpt from "Modern Chemical Magic" 1959, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 59-14380. The original hardcover I have cost 3.95 at the time of printing. I got it discarded from an old rural library -- a whole grocery brown bag full of books for a dollar if I remember correctly. pg 148 "Magical Metal As an interesting addition, the author has included in this book the formulas for two metal alloys that when prepared will melt in boiling water and may be held in the mount without danger of burning. These are the metals that resemble lead and are usually found as such in the repertoire of fire-eaters. It is not advisable that the novice try this effect as the danger of swallowing the melted metals offers a precarious problem. I Melt in a suitable dish bismuth metal, by weight, five ounces, lead metal, by weight, three ounces; tin metal, by weight, two ounces. II Melt in a suitable dish bismuth metal, by weight, eight ounces, lead metal, by weight, four ounces; tin metal, by weight two ounces; cadmium metal, by weight, two ounces. " I'm not sure what he means by mount. Maybe it was a typo and he means mouth because later he refers to fire-eating? For its time the book does seem almost blasphemous against the magician's code of not telling secrets because it has a huge amount of detail in it that assumes the book owner already knows what to do with these preparations in magic acts. The introduction is done by Harry Blackstone, the world famous magician. As a sidenote anyone who thinks these alloy formulas are just for fun are sadly mistaken. If not for this type of metallurgical knowledge we wouldn't have the safety of indoor fire sprinkler systems which use bismuth in them to detect heat levels under the boiling point of water. So I'm sure these can be experimented with and lowered even more if need be. Cadmium is a fascinating metal, too, and Cadium Sulfide (IIRC) is in large use today in every single motion light sensor, break beam alarms, garage door safety devices...etc. It is one of the few metal compounds that reacts to light by changing its electrical resistance. Hungry minds will enjoy this. ++++ End of thread 50430 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50431 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130219 (thread 50431) ---- From: "Doug" Date: 2004-03-06 06:37:19 Subject: some of last year's projects Dear Esteemed Galoots, Since Jim Esten kindly set me up, I decided to post a couple more picks from last years projects. In keeping with the recent "tool box" thread, here are a couple: First, a finish carpenter's tool box done a al the "Tool Box from the 1940's" episode of St. Roy. Complete with "leather corner bumpers". If I ever get our friend to come back with her digital cam, I'll take some more pics of Daniel's tools. The bench is his, on the opposite side of the shop as mine. http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=388 Next is a smallish tote with compound angled dovetails that serves as my wifes "onion tote"...never know when your gonna need to bring those onions and taters along! :-) I've made three others along these lines--again, pics may sometime appear. http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=391 Next a shaker carrier that I made last fall, I think. I've since made 3 more, all for gifts. Those galoots interested in an intro to wood bending, this is a good project, since the handle is made of narrow enough stock that it bends readily, assuming of course that the grain is straight enough without too much grain runout and few flaws. While not really visible in the pic, the handle is carefully shaped with shaves and scrapers (Kelly Repro of the Millers falls no. 1 doing much of the inside curve work). A nice light weight tote, but too light for tools--except for the permanent ink pens from recent treads! http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=390 The final one is not in keeping with the tote theme, here is the "Tower of Rabble". My dad and I did this last spring. Nearly all of the planks were cross cut with my trusty Disston D8 7point. At first, Dad was dubious, but after he watched a bit, he commented that "you can really cut accurrately with that." Electrons were used, however...I got tired to "bit and bracing" the bolt holes and machining the slats. If you look ever so closely, hanging just above the X support is a little bird house--that was my little boy's first galoot project. An absolute ball! http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=389 Best to all Doug Brozovic Denton, Texas ++++ End of thread 50431 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50432 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130221 (thread 50432) ---- From: sepost@i... (Scott Post) Date: 2004-03-06 08:01:18 Subject: Re: back bevels (was Bedrock 605 . . .); > Blake Ashley wrote: > > Wooden molding planes seem mostly to have been made with a 45 degree > bedding angle. Some were made with steeper angles, but they seem to be > rare. If you are using these 45 degree planes for straight grained > wood, no problem. But if you want to use wood with interesting grain or > very hard tropical wood, what do you do? It seems to be pretty well > accepted that the steeper bedding angle will give better results in > tearout-prone wood. But who can afford to go find sets of York pitch > molding planes? I've pondered this question a few times because since the very first time I took a cut with a molding plane I didn't understand why they cut so sweet even when the grain was less than straight. I think the answer might be in geometry. Most of the iron isn't cutting at the same angle as the bed. As the profile departs from the horizontal that part of the iron begins to approach a scraping cut. In fact, the sides of the round part of a bead profile are darn near to a pure scraping action. -- Scott Post sepost@i... http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/ ++++ End of thread 50432 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50433 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130223 (thread 50433) ---- From: "Pete Bergstrom" Date: 2004-03-06 08:05:08 Subject: It's almost maple syrup season in MN, WI (was Re: [oldtools] ??? new forests) "Larry Marshall" wrote: > incidental in the scheme of things. For instance, the province in > which I live produces 80% of the maple syrup used in the world. > New Englanders don't like to believe that the stuff is produced > elsewhere but.... And so is the wood. Speaking of maple syrup... I spoke with a fellow near Menominee, Wisconsin this past week about when his maple syrup operation will be opening up, and he'll start boiling syrup on March 21, with peak production in the first week of April. Prices are pretty good when you buy syrup directly and you can get an additional discount by canning it yourself. I'm taking my two kids for their first visit this year. Pete (in St. Paul, Minnesota) ++++ End of thread 50433 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50434 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130224 (thread 50434) ---- From: Randy Roeder Date: 2004-03-06 08:44:10 Subject: Finding good chisels in Korea?? Hi, I'm taking a trip to Korea this summer and am trying to come up with an old tools angle on it. I got to thinking about chisels... Does anyone know if Korea makes quality chisels in the Japanese style? Or maybe one could buy Japanese chisels cheaply in Korea? I'd be looking for good stuff... Randy Roeder Repaint houses, not old tools. ++++ End of thread 50434 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50435 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130227 (thread 50435) ---- From: "Gary Katsanis" Date: 2004-03-06 12:18:14 Subject: Reusing Stanley Plane Irons (was Slight Exaggeration in Description?) Frank Sronce commented on an *Bay auction for a worn out Stanley plane blade. I have a few in similar condition and was thinking about usage, specifically, making either a marking knife or a chip carving knife. I understand that the older Stanley plane irons were laminated, but I don't know anything more than that. If I have an older iron, say post-SW (I've seen these called TmBB) but not with the curved top, do I need to make sure that my cutting edge is in a harder lamination? It seems to me that if part of the iron is hard and part is soft, I need a cutting edge in the hard part. Does anyone have more information or experience with this? Thanks, Gary K Close to Buffalo NY ----- Original Message ----- --snip, snip-- > > According to the seller, these parts (the iron and the lever cap) are in > good condition and just need a little cleaning up to become users again. --snip, snip-- > > http://tinyurl.com/2kgo4 > > Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ---- Start of Message 130232 (thread 50435) ---- From: "greg" Date: 2004-03-06 12:14:19 Subject: Re: Reusing Stanley Plane Irons (was Slight Exaggeration in Description?) > > It seems to me that if part of the iron is hard and part is soft, I > need a cutting edge in the hard part. Does anyone have more > information or experience with this? > > Thanks, > > Gary K > Close to Buffalo NY gently draw a file across one side then the other. see if it skitters across one and cuts the other? ++++ End of thread 50435 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50436 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130233 (thread 50436) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-06 15:22:12 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about Richard, standing in Hyde Park, was overheard saying : > There has been a plethora of postings to the list about > sharpening, and different ways to go about it. It really > isn't a surprise that the subject comes up again and again, > for it is the one skill which differentiates hand workers > from their tailed counterparts. I don't know about that, j**nt*rs and pl*n*rs require sharpening too. > Notice that I don't think the required skill has decreased > much with motorised wheels - the skill is surely in knowing > when to stop, not in holding metal against a rotating surface. A wheel doesn't have to be motorized to be useful. It is a lot easier to hold an object still than to move it around while trying to keep it in a single orientation. > All you need to know, and remember is that you want those two > surfaces to come together and meet. There is lots of rubbish > hotly discussed about hollow grinding, dubbing over, rounding > your bevel (bezel) angles, and lots more. I find this pretty insulting, for starters. I find all discussion interesting since it leads us to better understanding. Different systems have different advantages and disadvantages and I'd like to be aware of what they are so I can choose a system that fits my needs, to my taste. > Disregard it all. If you came this far, you have the > intuition to realise that you need just the two surfaces. Hopefully you have enough brains to realize that this is a gross oversimplification. You might want to start with the dimensions of these two surfaces. All metal requires effort to remove it. Anything that might reduce the amount of metal involved will necessarily reduce the amount of effort needed. There are ways to quickly remove most of the middle portion of one of these surfaces, thereby decreasing the effort needed to polish them up. > All the discussion that comes about is how to make two > meeting surfaces easily and quickly. Being human, we > each defend our way of doing things, I guess we'll have to forgive Richard for being human as well... > Well, it may be. It may not. If you sell them, they're best. > If you buy them, they're best. What if one has tried most of them and figured out, through experiment, that a particular way - not yours - is best ? Should we let every newbie on this list go through years of experiment in a vacuum, or should we share what we've learned to perhaps shorten the time they'll waste learning instead of producing something useful ? >But this isn't about systems. It should be. > With the advent of coated abrasives, it's very feasible to > sharpen tools with throw away abrasive. I've always considered oldtools-like people to be a bit off to the side of our mass-market throw-away society. > The trouble with this 'freehand' method is that it is very, > very difficult to maintain a constant angle as you rub, both > as the stroke moves along the stone, and between strokes. No kidding. > Personally, I think everyone should set about practicing to > be able to sharpen by hand. So, we save time by using throwaway abrasive, but we'll loose lots more trying to learn to hold the blade perfectly through complicated manoeuvers. > But back at our plane blade, procure some abrasive sheets in > varying grades. Aluminium Zirconia is said to be 'the best' - > it's a cloth backed grade in a blue colour made by Norton, > in various grades. And how much is it a sheet ? How many sheets do you think are contained in whetsone, or in a grinding wheel ? > Now you'll need some sort of device for holding the blade at > a constant angle. This is more opportunity for gizmo sellers. > We're doing this at minimum cost though, so make a sharpening > box. It's not a gizmo, it's a box. And here I thought we were supposed to learn how to hold it freehand. > To avoid doing quite so much work, we only make the bevel angle > on the coarse grit. If you look at a plane or chisel blade, you > see two areas of bevel. Maybe on yours, not on mine. > Improve on the 'lump of dowel' I described for the sharpening box. > A simple clamp by arranging a bolt with wing nut through a runner, > a slotted runner for chisels - all easy to conceive and make - and > simple, and cheap to start up, and pretty much guaranteed to give > good results. More gizmos. I'm not against gizmos myself, but I won't tell someone not to use them in the same breath. Paul (wondering what this kind of discussion sounds like to a newbie) Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130243 (thread 50436) ---- From: Joe Macak Date: 2004-03-06 19:19:03 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about Hi Paul I don't know, I've been using most of the same 'scary-sharp' abrasives for a number of years now. It's not like I use the paper once and then throw it away--I'm much too cheap for that. I really have not seen much degradation after using them for so long. cheers joe in cool, overcast seattle On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 03:22:12PM -0500, Paul Pedersen wrote: > > I've always considered oldtools-like people to be a bit > off to the side of our mass-market throw-away society. > > ---- Start of Message 130247 (thread 50436) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-07 02:41:48 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about On the topic of sharpening I know there are a lot of resources out there, most of which are involved in self promotion of their own goods, but I did run across this 5 part article about sharpening that may miss some of the finer details but does a really good job of covering the general overview of different types of stones as well as a cross reference table of US grits compared to Japanese water stones. I had no idea until I read this they were two different sets of numbers and I consider myself a fairly experienced sharpener. I think this article would be ideal for a beginner who may have dabbled with sharpening but hasn't committed to one system or kind of stones just yet. It is mildly scientific and demystifies the differences in stones to a great extent. But what I like best about this is that it covers chisels well which I am more interest in than the planes. [watch me get shot for that one!] Also this is relevant to the recent thread where we discussed sharpening curved blades. If you click on the free plans and articles section within this web site there is a great wealth of information there on things that seems far more relevant to the oldtools and somewhat galootish ways of handling things. They cover the oil finishes and the waxes, which I like because I feel it leaves the person more in touch with the wood rather than a clear plastic poly coating. They hardly cover shellac, however. There are some gorgeous examples of carving and some quick history. However it looks like the site is made for selling their p*w*r*d chisel. I never even knew such a beast was made until I stumbled across this link. Anyway, I offer it for what it is. http://www.arbortech.com.au/articles/029.html ---- Start of Message 130248 (thread 50436) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-07 02:43:29 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about Oh yeah, the other reason I posted that is that the carving community is much more aware of how to handle green wood and there are some articles in there about how to prevent splitting and so forth. There is really a lot to explore there. ---- Start of Message 130285 (thread 50436) ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-03-08 14:34:02 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about Paul's heckling makes some sharp points, as he surgically dismembers my last posting joint by joint, starting with a brilliant one liner of scene setting .. >Richard, standing in Hyde Park, was overheard saying : >> There has been a plethora of postings to the list about >> sharpening, and different ways to go about it. It really >> isn't a surprise that the subject comes up again and again, >> for it is the one skill which differentiates hand workers >> from their tailed counterparts. >I don't know about that, j**nt*rs and pl*n*rs require >sharpening too. They do, and I wouldn't attempt to sharpen mine freehand. (huge snippage. . ) >> To avoid doing quite so much work, we only make the bevel angle >> on the coarse grit. If you look at a plane or chisel blade, you >> see two areas of bevel. >Maybe on yours, not on mine. And yet all of my books refer to 2 angles. >> Improve on the 'lump of dowel' I described for the sharpening box. >> A simple clamp by arranging a bolt with wing nut through a runner, >> a slotted runner for chisels - all easy to conceive and make - and >> simple, and cheap to start up, and pretty much guaranteed to give >> good results. >More gizmos. I'm not against gizmos myself, but I won't tell >someone not to use them in the same breath. A 'gizmo' is paid for - a workshop made jig /sharpening box is not >Paul (wondering what this kind of discussion sounds like to a newbie) I'm responding to acknowledge the value of Paul's points. And also to point out that my intention is to remind everyone that the pro's and cons of bevels, hollow grinds, diamond, oil, water, ceramic, abrasive cloth or whatever else, is an interesting (and sometimes heated) sideshow, when all we need to do is something very simple. The newbie's Paul refers to need to know, firstly, what a sharp tool is. Normally, this knowledge would (have) been acquired by being in close contact with working craftsmen. Nowadays it is less likely to be so, and no amount of reading or video's is the same as taking up a sharp chisel or plane and discovering the pressure needed to make it cut. There are now many courses which seek to right this. All of them devote significant time to sharpening. But if you're alone in your condo, and you've followed the book, and produced an edge which is sharper than anything you've ever produced to date, (yet which may not be 'sharp) you have nothing to judge it by. Which is why I believe we should first explain and teach what we need to achieve - the simplicity of the two meeting surfaces, and then leave the neophyte to evaluate the different methods available. My Grandfather used to use the kitchen doorstep for sharpening the carving knife - that would have cost nowt. But all the hi tech stuff we have today is expensive, and as we so often note here, what suits one man's way of working may not suit another. I may or may not need something with which I can jig long planer blades to produce a dead straight and accurate edge. I may prefer to use my hand grinders. My choice, my results. But our neophyte needs a sharpening system first of all to produce a result, and cloth backed abrasive is an inexpensive entry point. As someone pointed out, it is perhaps not as throw-away as it may appear, and given a means of maintaining a chosen angle on each stroke such as the ultra cheap 'box' arrangement I described, then it should be possible for anyone to arrive at a sharp edge, with suitable angle. Now, I'm very happy to discuss and learn from everyone here as to alternative ways of sharpening straight, crowned, curved, profiled, low angle, high angle, thick, thin, or any other sort of blade. Whether A1, O1, Sintered, Cryo or any other steel, and how the choice of abrasive, its presentation in block, wheel, or powder, fixed or moving, and the means of jigging the tool - hand, toolrest, clamp and so on all have their advantages for given work, but I just don't want newcomers to feel they have to have special benches and expensive sets of stuff before they can sharpen a chisel. 'What we do is simple, what we do is simple' Richard Wilson The beginners Yorkshire Galoot Trying to remove some mystique for newcomers. . . . ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 130288 (thread 50436) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-08 07:47:53 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about On Monday, March 8, 2004, at 06:34 AM, Richard.Wilson@s... wrote: > > Paul's heckling makes some sharp points, as he surgically dismembers my > last posting joint by joint, starting with a brilliant one liner of > scene > setting .. > I gotta go along with Richard on this one. When I started trying to sharpen tools I used oil stones because that was what I had, and what I thought was the only way to do it. After a while I discovered water stones, but I never fell in love with them. Later still I tried ScarySharp. Still no Cupie Doll! I made up a machine with numerous wheels in numerous shapes, and for a while I thought that was sharpening nirvana. But all these methods were too time consuming to suit me. I want to use my tools, not work on them. Unlike some, my tools serve a genuine purpose: I make stuff with them. I finally found a sharpening method which is fast, and which gives me the razor sharp edges I want. A bench grinder with a decent wheel and tool rest on one side and a hard felt wheel on the other side. I hollow grind my tools and then shape them on a diamond sharpening plate. Then I go to the hard felt wheel with green compound and I polish the bevel and the back. Admittedly this requires a little experience to get the technique down pat, but it is FAST! Does it dub the edge? Of course it does! Does it matter? Not that I can tell. Sharpened tools, quickly. That is what it is all about for me. And if the tool needs touching up I can go right back to the hard felt wheel and do that in 10 seconds, then back to work. Slight back bevels? Of course! Does that make any difference in the way the tool performs? Again, not that I can tell. There is a huge difference between what you NEED and what you WANT. And happy woodworking depends on learning those differences. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130297 (thread 50436) ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 2004-03-08 13:37:24 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about At 02:41 AM 3/7/2004 -0600, John Sawchak wrote: >I never even knew such a beast [ a p*w*r*d chisel ] was made until I ... Hmmmmph. A clumsy imitation of a pneumatic chisel. I guess I'm in the I like chisels more than handplanes camp also. Chisels are undemanding - no ceremony and no worship. ---- Start of Message 130312 (thread 50436) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-08 13:26:25 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about If I had a set of those Japanese Ink Pattern chisels, I would worship them. >>> Jim Nelson 03/08/2004 11:37:24 AM >>> At 02:41 AM 3/7/2004 -0600, John Sawchak wrote: >I never even knew such a beast [ a p*w*r*d chisel ] was made until I ... Hmmmmph. A clumsy imitation of a pneumatic chisel. I guess I'm in the I like chisels more than handplanes camp also. Chisels are undemanding - no ceremony and no worship. ---- Start of Message 130350 (thread 50436) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-03-09 07:42:08 Subject: RE: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about : -----Original Message----- : From: Jim Thompson [mailto:jdthompsonca@s...] : Sent: 08 March 2004 15:48 : To: oldtools : Cc: oldtools : Subject: Re: [oldtools] Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about : : Slight back bevels? Of course! Does that make any difference in the : way the tool performs? Again, not that I can tell. In regard to plane blades, probably not. For carving gouges, a positive advantage. For a chisel, when paring some control can be lost since to pare a surface the handle will need to be lifted to make the backface form an angle with said surface. On my web site (what yet again, some might say?) - Sharpening Notes - Some Scientific Light on Sharpening, is a description of a technique involving minimum fuss. Hardly anyone gives it credence, but it has now worked for several year as my standard technique. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 130356 (thread 50436) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-09 04:53:21 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about On Monday, March 8, 2004, at 11:42 PM, Jeff Gorman wrote: > > For a chisel, when paring some control can be lost since to pare a > surface the handle will need to be lifted to make the backface form an > angle with said surface. > I should have mentioned that I don't back bevel my bench chisels. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130382 (thread 50436) ---- From: Bill Kasper Date: 2004-03-09 08:32:19 Subject: Re: Sharpening's nothing to get cut up about this is what manny hernandez emphasized this saturday at the sharpening class he gave to omi chandiramani and i (we wee lucky that neal white was also "teaching", so it was a fine "great teacher":student ratio!). plane irons can have back bevels because it increases the effective cutting angle, and since the plane is a "jig" to hold the iron (my words) there's no issue with control if the blade is sharp. with paring chisels he emphasized the backs should be perfectly flat, or as perfect as you can get them. they can have hollows, so long as the majority of the flat area is the reference surface for the edge. no back bevel, or you have to consistently lift the chisel to cut and you can't be as consistent with that as you can by riding the chisel on the surface of the cut wood. and just a quick note about the class: it was outstanding. manny is a generous and savvy teacher and woodworker, and the class gave me an appreciation of what *sharp* is...something i'd not fully appreciated before. thus, i have a target to aim for when i sharpen my irons. we used his japanese waterstones, but the methods are applicable to both oilstones and scarysharp. i think one thing on my purchase list is the diamond flattening plate from shapton. wow! and to any other bags, if manny is offering a class at his shop, it's an outstanding opportunity to learn from an intelligent woodworker who is very giving of his time and energy (now, about that holtey door prize...lol!). one other thing. i went back and reread david charlesworth's treatise on sharpening in his first volume of "furniture making", and it contains largely the same information as we learned at manny's. i'd read it before, but it wasn't *clear* to me. it is now. and, manny, charlesworth emphasises to use the ruler trick *only* on plane blades, never on chisels. best, bill felton, ca On Mar 9, 2004, at 4:53 AM, Jim Thompson wrote: > On Monday, March 8, 2004, at 11:42 PM, Jeff Gorman wrote: > >> For a chisel, when paring some control can be lost since to pare a >> surface the handle will need to be lifted to make the backface form an >> angle with said surface. > > I should have mentioned that I don't back bevel my bench chisels. ++++ End of thread 50436 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50437 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130235 (thread 50437) ---- From: Timothy Collins Date: 2004-03-06 15:34:50 Subject: webster flea finds Finally went with my dad to the webster (florida) flea market my parents have been telling me about for a couple of years. Truly huge, and only on Monday's from 7-12 AM. (the parents are snowbirds, spend winter in kissimee area). fair number of people selling tools, usual mix of new crap and old rust. lots of breast brace drills, auger bits. Several nice slicks at one place (with shovel handles stuck into them) but price was way high. Came away with a complete Stanely 78 (with fence, depth gauge, nicker) "in original box" which promptly fell appart. ($37) Also a "B K Baker cast steel" socket mortise chisle ($20) Yankee drill (130A and 131, $5 and $7). tim ++++ End of thread 50437 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50438 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130236 (thread 50438) ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-03-06 16:42:20 Subject: Visit to a galoot Today a friend at work took me to see a friend of hers who she said has some old tools. I thought, ok, sure. Let's see if this person has anything. The friend turned out to be Ed Hobbs. For anyone who's ever been to the MWTCA meet in Raleigh knows Ed. He hosts it. I also saw a great collection of pedal-powered machines he has including three different Barnes scroll saws, a couple of lathe, a morticing machine and more. He also has a very nice collection of all kinds of hand tools upstairs. A lot fun was had in four hours of nothing but tool talk. A first for me. Ed was gracious, generous with his time and even gave me a copy of one of his reprints, "The Modern Wood Finisher" from 1904 and leant me a #2 so I can try it out and decide if I want to get one. If anyone has the opportunity to get down to Raleigh for the Area Q meet sometime in July, I recommend it. I'll be there. I'll also be at the meet in April outside Charlotte. See you there! AAAndrew Having tool fun in Durham and Raleigh, North Carolina. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 50438 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50439 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130239 (thread 50439) ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-03-07 02:03:18 Subject: Advance No 12 post drill If any of you gentle galoots are knowledgeable about this drill I kneed to know what could be wrong with the feed system and what might fix it. Also what a fair price might be. I have an opportunity to by one which seems to be in good order except for the feed. It's just a lot more money than I'm used to spending on tools. It is a really honking big sucker and very neat looking though I might have to reinforct a wall to hang it. Please ping me off line if you want as this may not be relitave to many listers. Steve ++++ End of thread 50439 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50440 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130240 (thread 50440) ---- From: "Walt Cheever" Date: 2004-03-06 20:26:52 Subject: WTB Lever Cap Gentle Galoots, a minor disaster... Just started to clean up an old #7 Stanley Jointer of quite old vintage, and the lever on the lever cap came off in my hands. Old crack, just waiting for a victim. So, I need a new lever cap. The plane is an old one, Type 11 (1910-1920), I think. The cap has the keyhole shaped hole (no kidney). To be true to type, it shouldn't have a logo--but I'm a user not a collector. I'm not fussy about plating either--the busted one didn't look to have much. Would appreciate any help out there. The good news is that I spent part of the afternoon sharpening and tuning a 50 year old jack plane and it looks good and planes like a dream. Best shavings I ever got. (Not contest material, but respectable.) I've pressed a couple in my memory book. Thanks. Walt Cheever Who passed up the chance to use old hand tools yesterday when his driveway was full of wet snow, fired up the little Craftsman single stage blower and was very pleased how much snow a pint of gasoline would throw. ++++ End of thread 50440 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50441 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130244 (thread 50441) ---- From: Date: 2004-03-06 22:41:53 Subject: A Couple of What Is Its? Hey Everybody! I've got a couple of more tools that I have no idea what they are. Can you please help me? Blacksmith tool? www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060232.JPG Sheet Metal Shears? www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060360.JPG www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060368.JPG Plow Tool? www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060412.JPG Doug Piper ---- Start of Message 130245 (thread 50441) ---- From: "Bret Rochotte" Date: 2004-03-07 00:07:02 Subject: RE: A Couple of What Is Its? Hello; The claw-like tongs look like the ones down at the hardware store in the bulk nail bin. The shears look like shears, other than that I dunno. Bret -----Original Message----- From: Doug Piper [mailto:doug.piper@w...]On Behalf Of doug@h... Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 10:42 PM To: oldtools Subject: [oldtools] A Couple of What Is Its? Hey Everybody! I've got a couple of more tools that I have no idea what they are. Can you please help me? Blacksmith tool? www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060232.JPG Sheet Metal Shears? www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060360.JPG www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060368.JPG Plow Tool? www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060412.JPG Doug Piper ---- Start of Message 130257 (thread 50441) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-07 10:11:50 Subject: Re: A Couple of What Is Its? Hi Doug & Bret & All, I agree with Bret about the nail tongs and the shears. Re the wrench thing - some like that were special purpose ones made to be sold with a machine or device that had nuts in the various sizes on the wrench; some of those were marked in ways that gives a clue to what the device is. Others were simply made (I think) as general purpose multi-size wrenches. I don't know how you can tell the difference if it's not marked. Best Wishes, Bob ++++ End of thread 50441 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50442 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130246 (thread 50442) ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-03-06 21:16:24 Subject: Should I buy this No 7 type 18?? I think it is a type 18 Stanley #7 non corugated. I have posted two photos I took in the store, should have taken a couple more. The blade has no pitting on the front, I didn't remove the cap iron, just the = lever cap. The sole is patined, but not pitted. Quite a bit of life left in = the blade, but would likley buy a hock or LN at some point soon. I currently = have a #6C bought from a fellow galloot. I didn't go over it with extreme = care, but no obvious flaws. The blade, as you make out in the photo has made in usa on it, the lateral = adjuster might make this a different type as I was thinking vertical should be = like: A B C but some other features didn't make sense if I went down that path. I did not photograph the adjuster nut http://arwomack01.home.att.net/images/stanley_7a.jpg http://arwomack01.home.att.net/images/stanley_7b.jpg These are about 1.7 meg files, each. The plane was $68.00, I didn't make an offer, likely could get it down a few = dollars at the antique store. Epson Inkjet Printer FAQ: http://welcome.to/epson-inkjet ---- Start of Message 130259 (thread 50442) ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-03-07 15:15:24 Subject: re: Should I buy this No 7 type 18?? My two cents would be that thats too much for a plane that new in that shape. You could make a good user from the looks of it but I'm too cheap and too much or a low knob freak to pay more than thirty five or fourty bucks for one like that. I would get by with the six which is a better plane than some claim till I found a better deal. Steve ---- Start of Message 130300 (thread 50442) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-08 18:54:06 Subject: re: Should I buy this No 7 type 18?? I've gotten better looking ones on e-bay plus shipping for less. Just gotta make sure you get good looks in the pics and be patient. Determine what you're willing to pay ahead of time and don't go over that amount. Don't be shy about asking for more pics and info from the seller. Jerry ++++ End of thread 50442 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50443 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130249 (thread 50443) ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-03-07 01:16:28 Subject: Q: Electrocution anode? As I'm considering trying this out and poking around the web, ran across this warning about using stainless steel as an anode, http://www.oldengine.org/members/billd/stainless-steel-electrodes.htm (in short, chromates in solution are a by-product and are considered hazmat.) I'm not chemist and haven't yet seen anything of the sort in the archives, so this message has two purposes: a warning if true, and a call for clarification if not. Aside from possible toxicity, are there advantages to different metals? Does the anode just have to be different from that being cleaned? If cleaning a steel saw, is re-bar (steel) or copper better? Cheers, Kyle Accardi give blood, sharpen tools ---- Start of Message 130250 (thread 50443) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-07 04:46:40 Subject: RE: Q: Electrocution anode? I'm by no means a metallurgical expert but my dad did get me interested in this to some degree when I was younger and I have done considerable reading over the years so I can testify to a few points. Yes, stainless steel does use the elemental metal chromium to retain its rustless and stainless ability (coincidentally I have read that there is cheap stainless steel out there that does have such low amounts of chromium in it that it can rust, though I personally have never seen it). It is fairly significant.... for some reason "up to 17 percent chromium" pops out of my mind. And I know that some of the chromium compounds can be pretty toxic. This is why CCA -- green pressure treated lumber was recently banned due to its Chromium Copper Arsenate, once again IIRC. As to whether toxic chromium compounds are formed in that electrolytic reaction is for someone with more knowledge than me. I might be able to figure it out if I dug through a stack of nearby college level chemistry books I have but even then I don't think I could really take into account the full reality of the large mix of elements that really is in stainless steel. Each one is slightly different, some with different components and some can have effects only a thoroughly skilled metallurgical expert would know about. For instance, platinum being a catalyst in H202 (Hydrogen Peroxide) used everyday by contact lens wearers. In the case of a 3% household of standard hydrogen peroxide the amount of explosive gases given off would be very minor but could be extremely dangerous in a larger, more concentrated solution. My point here being that what if one of those other tiny tiny percentages of an elemental material in the stainless steel alloy act as a catalyst to produce the dangerous compound you are worrying about? So until I knew otherwise I would take the gentleman's advice about avoiding stainless steel just to be on the safe side. I doubt you are gaining much if the reaction can be done with other suitable and less expensive metals anyway. Why risk even the possibility if other things work just fine? I got a huge belly laugh out of the guy's tribute to Gore on his electrolysis page. Gone, but not forgotten. > [Original Message] > From: Kyle Accardi > As I'm considering trying this out and poking around the web, ran across > this warning about using stainless steel as an anode, > > http://www.oldengine.org/members/billd/stainless-steel-electrodes.htm ---- Start of Message 130256 (thread 50443) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-07 07:09:35 Subject: Re: Q: Electrocution anode? I saw that page. Looked like the guy was using a dc arc welder or somesuch to do Caterpillar or steam locomotive engine blocks! Kidding, but, High amperage, in other words. The 2ga battery clamps are kind of a giveaway. A hand tool responds pretty well for me at 2 amps since I'm not in a rush and don't like the look of overcooked tools anyway, so I'm not terribly worried. The fat stainless plumbing union I use hasn't lost much mass in years of intermittant use. I've never seen yellow dyed water and nothing I ever poured it on has died, including me. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130260 (thread 50443) ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-03-07 15:22:44 Subject: re: Q: Electrocution anode? Kyle The whole point too stanless as an anode is how slowly it erodes. I generaly use big old files or rasps that are too rusty to use for anything else. Tweny five cents to half a buck at a flea and I get close to a year out of one even though my tank runs most of the time when I'm home. That way you have nothing too worry about except in the winter when SWMBOB wants to know what the ugly stain on the snow is from. Steve ++++ End of thread 50443 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50444 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130252 (thread 50444) ---- From: "Dennis Yanan" Date: 2004-03-07 12:17:23 Subject: What is it about this obsession? GG's: A general philisophical question. I'm sitting here holding my 6 month old, and wondering how I woiuld explain to him the following question: What is it about this hobby/obsession, or any hobby in general, that compels us to do things we would be unwilling to do for our paying job? I ask this because for the past two weekends, I have gotten up obnoxiously early in the AM, or stayed up extrememly late at night, so that i could go down to my workshop and make sawdust. Now, i frequently need to get out of bed at the same time for work, but for some reason, when I'm going to work, i will lie in bed for a significant period of time before moving, while this morning, I practically jumped out of bed when the alarm went off. What's wrong with us? Reason for getting out of bed/staying up late - I'm building a vanity for the Bathroom renovation I started Oct. 2002. I'll try to post pictures when finished (if ever). ---- Start of Message 130254 (thread 50444) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-07 07:08:55 Subject: RE: What is it about this obsession? You explain to the youngster that there are lot of things in this world which are stressful; #1) Jobs -- where the goal is so big that one often never feels an individual sense of accomplishment. Working with hand tools really makes up for this. #2) Money -- like planes and saws and chisels and clamps no one ever has enough no matter how much time is spent on #1 #3) Relationships -- #2 can't provide happiness in #3 but #1 can rob you of #3 And if the youngster is still looking at you with that slightly tilted head like they don't understand then be absolutely unmerciful and brutal and tell them the honest truth; Wood and metal does not talk back. Neither does rust. [ If, however, it starts to you have been spending too much time in the shop.] He says with a smile on his face. > From: Dennis Yanan > GG's: > > A general philisophical question. I'm sitting here holding my 6 month old, and wondering how I woiuld explain to him the following question: What is it about this hobby/obsession, or any hobby in general, that compels us to do things we would be unwilling to do for our paying job? ---- Start of Message 130258 (thread 50444) ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-03-07 15:05:54 Subject: re: What is it about this obsession? Dennis I think that you could find as many reasons as there are list members. Things from the very complex like the desire to create or finding a new or new to you way of doing something. For others its an urge to connect to the past. It can be suductive simply decause you don't have to do it, the bills get paid and the kids get food wheather you make shavings or not. Course you might want to avoid these questions alltogether less you find that you are a crazed, momomanicial, irrational shell of a human being like many of us are. I'm not complaining about my insanity but Beware This Way Lies Madness. Steve Who is finishing a lot of little projects since SWMBOB and SWMBOB in training are gone for the day ---- Start of Message 130262 (thread 50444) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-07 10:51:35 Subject: Re: What is it about this obsession? Hi Dennis & All, I don't really have an answer to the question Dennis raised, but I sort of wondered about the same thing after I retired - when things change. As most should know by now, I was never a woodworker in the senso of making furniture or such. But I did do such homeowner things as strip a kitchen to the bare walls and rebuild it, enclose a porch, finish a rec room in the basement, rewire the whole house, yard/garden work, etc. All done evenings and weekends while I was working and I still had time for pursuing my tool collecting, researching the tools, writing articles about them, keeping detailed records, and other non-tool things like extensive reading, creating puzzles, etc. But after I retired, I found that I didn't seem to have time to do half those things I used to do - leading me to wonder where I had ever found the time to go to work. The fairly obvious answer is that I no longer bounded out of bed early in the morning to get started on even the regular things - let alone the extras. So I guess I can tell Dennis that if he waits until he retires, the questiton will go away - or change form anyway. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130263 (thread 50444) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-07 17:34:24 Subject: Re: What is it about this obsession? ROTFLMAO The one really good thing about a job is that, at least in my case, it makes me get up much earlier than I would like to. The good thing is that I get used to getting up early during the week, so weekends have more hours in them. Hours to spend chasing down tools, working on tools, and doing enough of the Honey-Do list to keep LOML happy. And even some time to spend on the net, looking for tools, info, or just BSing around. As to why we are willing to do more for our hobby than our day job, hey, this we do for ourselves because we enjoy it. Really simple. Like Christmas morning to kids. Even the ones who normally sleep half the day away if allowed, will be up before the crack of dawn to see what Santa brought. And this stuff gives us a chance to stretch our brain, unlike most jobs. Who woulda thought I'd become interested in metallurgy or any number of other topics based on an enjoyment of woodworking? ---- Start of Message 130265 (thread 50444) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-07 14:17:58 Subject: Re: What is it about this obsession? Hi Jerry & All, I can't resist Jerry's comments about getting up early as an excuse to tell an old war story. From ages 13-17, all thru high school, I used to get up at 4 AM and deliver milk for 2 1/2 hours before going to school or to my Summer daytime job. When I went into the Army out of high school, most of the guys in basic wailed and moaned about having to get up at 5:30 - 6, but sleeping that late seemed like heaven to me. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130277 (thread 50444) ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-03-07 17:53:35 Subject: Re: Re: What is it about this obsession? Hold on now, Jerry. I also delivered milk when I was a kid - just a FEW (?) years ago. I didn't mind the delivering, I just hated the milking. I considered myself a cowboy, not a farmer, and I knew Gene Autry would never get so low as to milk a cow. Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Palmer" To: "oldtools" Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 4:41 PM Subject: Re:[oldtools] Re:What is it about this obsession? > Delivering Milk, huh, Bob. Sorta puts an age on you. > > LOL > > Jerry ++++ End of thread 50444 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50445 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130255 (thread 50445) ---- From: Date: 2004-03-07 08:51:49 Subject: What Vintage and Type is this Old Stanley No. 45? Would one of you experts help me identify the vintage and type of this old Stanley No.45? www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060308.JPG www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060310.JPG www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060314.JPG www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060317.JPG www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060322.JPG Doug Piper ++++ End of thread 50445 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50446 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130266 (thread 50446) ---- From: "Dan Clermont" Date: 2004-03-07 19:31:59 Subject: Saint James Bay Castings Thanks to all who responded to my inquiry about purcahsing lever caps for infill planes. I may make my own lever cap or I may buy a complete casting from Bob at Saint James Bay including the lever cap for $50. I do have access to a milling machine to open the mouth up so that won't be a problem. My question is how are these casting to work with and have many of you bought a casting and decided it was too much work. It sounds easy and cheap enough if I decided it wasn't going to work for me or the mouth was too wide it was only $50 plus blade and infill. Thinking about it, Dan Clermont in Burnaby ++++ End of thread 50446 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50447 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130267 (thread 50447) ---- From: "don goldenhersh" Date: 2004-03-07 19:29:53 Subject: more or less trees?? Dear gentle galoots ,,I have heard bantied about in the nursery trade in the past is the factoid that in the usa more wood grows each year than is cut.I hope that helps clearup this question.And I bet on a whole it's true.The idea that there are more trees than at the turn of the century is probably true since so much of the recent development in this country has been in areas ,like the southwest, where there were not a lot of trees to cut down as the east reforested.Thanks!!Don Goldenhersh in spring time missouri,,oh glorious!! ---- Start of Message 130269 (thread 50447) ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-03-07 15:23:50 Subject: Re: more or less trees?? >I have heard bantied about in the nursery trade in the past is the factoid that in the usa more wood >grows each year than is cut.I hope that helps clearup this question.And I bet on a whole it's true.The >idea that there are more trees than at the turn of the century is probably true since so much of the >recent development in this country has been in areas ,like the southwest, where there were not a lot >of trees to cut down as the east reforested. I should probably let sleeping dogs lie, but as I sit and wait for a bunch of 6 year old boys to show up at our house for GIT#1's birthday party - I am probably a little delirious.... Having grown up in PA, I was very suprised a number of years ago when I learned that most of the forest land in northern PA was once clear-cut. At a number of places along Rt. 6 (in northern PA) - I remember seeing amazing photo's of the (now forested) hills in the area completely clear cut. In fact, they claim Williamsport, PA (now home of the Little League World Series) was once the "lumber capital of the world." The pictures of log flows down the Sesquehanna (spelling?) are also impressive. I know of only a couple of "virgin stands" of timber in that area and it is amazing how different they are from the current forests. They are dominanted by very large white pines and the hardwoods are slow growth trees that grow in the shade of the pines. Does this matter? Well, from a woodworking point of view it reemphasizes that the wood of 150+ years ago, were somewhat different from the wood of today. Regarding, "more wood grows each year than is cut" - I don't doubt this is true, but I would guess most of those trees are trees of little interest to most Galoots (ie. trees for paper products and construction lumber). But, I wouldn't predict any shortage of hardwoods in the foreseeable future - just price increases as their use moves from the mainstream - and perhaps some shift in what is available. On a related note, a while ago there was a discussion regarding apple wood. Although, I think the subject was beat to death, while searching for something else I stumbled upon this link. http://www.iswonline.com/wwp/wom/apple.shtml I think it was stated before, but the big news (to me) is that most orchards now are comprised of dwarf trees - which really don't work for lumber so there is a lot less apple wood now than there used to be... Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ++++ End of thread 50447 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50448 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130268 (thread 50448) ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-03-07 13:38:40 Subject: Jack Birky hello Hi Jack Please ping me sorry about the intrusion ontp the Porch guys :( T ++++ End of thread 50448 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50449 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130272 (thread 50449) ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-03-07 16:22:54 Subject: Unknown Router Galooti, I acquired a router recently, that I can't identify. Check the last two pictures at this location: http://tinyurl.com/34fl7 One shows the router by itself. The other shows it sitting by an old Stanley #71 to show size. It is slightly smaller than the Stanley. The cutter was craftsman made - a piece of square bar stock with a piece at the end bent up and twisted. Unfortunately, the twist didn't make it far enough for the cutter to be facing straight forward. In addition, the cutter part is so thin it is unusable. The knobs are held on by screws through the bottom. The cutter holding attachment is very like Stanley, but the newer Stanley cutters (with the depth adjustment feature) are slightly too big to fit. The old non-adjustable cutters fit, but I only have one of them, and it is in my old #71. Anyone recognize this router? Anyone have a spare 1/4 or 1/2 inch Stanley cutter without the adjusting slot that they would like to sell? [For those not paying attention, that is a driveby WTB.] Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ---- Start of Message 130273 (thread 50449) ---- From: JTWad@a... Date: 2004-03-07 17:41:13 Subject: Re: Unknown Router Frank Sronce said: << I acquired a router recently, that I can't identify. >> Looks like a home-cast job to me, even without the twisty cutter. I have a few craftsman-made routers--some are quite well done. Sometimes it's obvious what the model was (Stanley or Preston, usually); sometimes not--at least to me. This one has a sort of cousin-to-Stanley look about it. John Wadsworth, in Delhi, NY (where it's gonna snow again, darn it) ---- Start of Message 130275 (thread 50449) ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-03-07 17:31:49 Subject: Re: Unknown Router John, You may be correct. The cutter and thumb screw are definitely homemade. Someone took a 1/4 inch round head machine screw and filed the head flat on two sides, down to about the thickness of the screw body. Then they brazed/soldered on a flat piece of metal to make it into a thumb screw. If the router is craftsman-made, they did a very professional job on everything except the screw and cutter - one or both of which could have been replaced later by someone else. Enjoy your snow. It is 70F here right now and nothing but sunshine. Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Unknown Router > Frank Sronce said: > > << I acquired a router recently, that I can't identify. >> > > Looks like a home-cast job to me, even without the twisty cutter. I have a > few craftsman-made routers--some are quite well done. Sometimes it's obvious > what the model was (Stanley or Preston, usually); sometimes not--at least to > me. This one has a sort of cousin-to-Stanley look about it. > > John Wadsworth, in Delhi, NY (where it's gonna snow again, darn it) > ---- Start of Message 130276 (thread 50449) ---- From: Mark Marsay Date: 2004-03-07 23:36:37 Subject: Re: Unknown Router Looks very much like a Marples router I saw at the antiques fair I hit to stock up stock in last week. Unfortunately I didn't pick that up as it was the end of the day and I had, as usual, grossly overspent the budget. As far as the cutter goes, I know I have a box of odd 71 cutters somewhere, as my 71 box only has space for 6, so I'll check when I hit the workshop in the morning (don't think the missus will be entirely pleased at me shifting boxes over her head at half eleven!) If I have one, I'll ask her to post it to you from Dallas Tuesday or Wednesday, but I'll let you know off list tomorrow. Regards, Mark Marsay, Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. > >Subject: Re: [oldtools] Unknown Router From: "Frank" >Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 17:31:49 -0600 To: "oldtools" > >John, > >You may be correct. The cutter and thumb screw are definitely >homemade. Someone took a 1/4 inch round head machine screw and filed >the head flat on two sides, down to about the thickness of the screw >body. Then they brazed/soldered on a flat piece of metal to make it >into a thumb screw. > >If the router is craftsman-made, they did a very professional job on >everything except the screw and cutter - one or both of which could >have been replaced later by someone else. > >Enjoy your snow. It is 70F here right now and nothing but sunshine. > >Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) > > >----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 4:41 PM Subject: Re: >[oldtools] Unknown Router > > >> Frank Sronce said: >> >> << I acquired a router recently, that I can't identify. >> >> >> Looks like a home-cast job to me, even without the twisty cutter. I >have a >> few craftsman-made routers--some are quite well done. Sometimes it's >obvious >> what the model was (Stanley or Preston, usually); sometimes not--at >least to >> me. This one has a sort of cousin-to-Stanley look about it. >> >> John Wadsworth, in Delhi, NY (where it's gonna snow again, darn it) >> > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ++++ End of thread 50449 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50450 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130274 (thread 50450) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-07 22:41:29 Subject: Re: Re:What is it about this obsession? Delivering Milk, huh, Bob. Sorta puts an age on you. LOL Jerry ++++ End of thread 50450 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50451 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130278 (thread 50451) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-07 17:07:11 Subject: Bessemer process ( was new forests) On Sunday, March 7, 2004, at 01:12 PM, Paul Honore wrote: > > The Bessemer process finally won out in the early 20th century and > most of > the > old furnaces just tumbled away, although the one on the grounds of the > Sloane-Stanley > Museum in Kent CT has been nicely restored. > > The Bessemer process did not replace blast furnaces, it replaced open hearth furnaces by greatly reducing the amount of time necessary to convert iron to steel. It was still necessary to have blast furnaces to produce the iron to feed into the Bessemer process. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130281 (thread 50451) ---- From: Paul Honore Date: 2004-03-07 23:32:14 Subject: Re: Bessemer process ( was new forests) At 05:07 PM 3/7/2004 -0800, Jim writes: > >The Bessemer process did not replace blast furnaces, it replaced open >hearth furnaces by greatly reducing the amount of time necessary to >convert iron to steel. It was still necessary to have blast furnaces to >produce the iron to feed into the Bessemer process. > >Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA > Jim is quite correct. What I should have said was the use of coke in blast furnaces instead of charcoal and the availability of cheap coal sources in Pennsylvania and Alabama made those areas the kings of pig iron and caused the demise of the charcoal method. Probably just as well for the Connecticut countryside. Paul Honore ++++ End of thread 50451 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50452 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130279 (thread 50452) ---- From: "CheekyGeek" Date: 2004-03-07 18:25:41 Subject: T. Tillotson chisel, questions & a whatsit... Greetings Porchlings, I bought a grouping of tools off of that big auction site we all know and love. I was mainly interested in the German "Perfection" style screwdriver, which turned out to be the 5" size. I also got a couple of bevel gauges, including one that is rosewood & brass and 10-1/2 inches long (closed). It has a circular Patent Date stamp in the rosewood, but no other markings. From the date (Sept. 4. 1877) I was able to use DATAMP to determine that it was a Traut Patent Stanley. Not sure how long they might have stamped the wood in this fashion and yet had no other Stanley markings. Certainly not rare, but it looks pretty old to my eyes. Does anyone have any idea how long Stanley used real rosewood on their bevel gauges? Also in the group was a tang chisel exactly 1 cm wide which (if I am reading it correctly) is a (Some initial) TILLOTSON chisel. It is ground slighly skew (a bit too much to appear merely sloppy). It is also stamped "CRYSTALLIZED CAST STEEL". Does anyone have any information on Tillotson (approximate age, etc.) and what in the world is "Crystallized" cast steel? Finally, I got an odd item that is a "whatsit" to me. It looks like a 9" long letter opener except the blade is too fat to be useful for that (If you cut it, the cross-section would be American Football shaped. It has a wooden handle about 4-1/2" long and the metal part is stuck into it like a tanged chisel. It comes to a rounded point that does not appear to ever have been sharpened for any reason. My guess is that it is a scraper burnisher, but I'm not sure why the football cross-section. Has anyone ever seen anything fitting this description? I'll try to get a picture up in the mornng. Thanks in advance for any wisdom (or guesses) you can shed. Darren Addy Kearney, Nebraska ---- Start of Message 130284 (thread 50452) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-08 09:50:13 Subject: Re: T. Tillotson chisel, questions & a whatsit... Hi Darren & All, The DAT has T. Tillotson listed as a maker of bits, chisels, and plane irons, but has no data on when or where he worked. I'm pretty sure the football cross section thing is a burnisher. Your doubts about that sort of surprised me; I've always pictured that as the standard form for burnishers. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130292 (thread 50452) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 2004-03-08 11:54:12 Subject: Re: T. Tillotson chisel, questions & a whatsit... Darren Addy asked: >Also in the group was a tang chisel exactly 1 cm wide which (if I am >reading it correctly) is a (Some initial) TILLOTSON chisel. It is ground >slighly skew (a bit too much to appear merely sloppy). It is also stamped >"CRYSTALLIZED CAST STEEL". Does anyone have any information on Tillotson >(approximate age, etc.) and what in the world is "Crystallized" cast >steel? In a caption of a photo of a Sheffield plated brace marked "T. TILLOTSON", Ken Roberts indicated that Thomas Tillotson was a Sheffield Merchant & Dealer from 1837 to 1856. While this is, likely, substantially correct, I've uncovered the following directory listings which indicate the reality is slightly more complex: 1822 John Tillotson, Factor and Table Knife Mfr., Coalpit Lane, Sheffield 1828/9 John Tillotson & Son, Edge Tool Maker, Coalpit Lane, Sheffield 1839 T. Tillotson & Sons, Merchant & Manufacturerer of Table Cutlery &c., 56 Coal-Pit Lane, Sheffield 1841 Thomas and John Tillotson, Table Knife Manufacturers, 56 Coalpit Lane, Sheffield 1847 Thomas Tillotson, Merchant, Factor & Manufacturer, 56 Coalpit Lane, Sheffield 1852 Thomas Tillotson & Co., Merchant, Columbia Place, 49 Suffolk Road, Sheffield The likelihood is that your chisel was made for Thomas Tillotson by another company, and the "Crystallized Cast Steel" mark *may* provide a clue regarding its origin. For example, a couple of years ago, Trevor Robinson had a chisel for sale which was marked "Crystallized Cast Steel" as well as with John Cutler's maker's mark. John Cutler's working dates were in the same time-frame as those given for Thomas Tillotson: -1841- on Stanley Street and -1845-1854- on Charlotte Street, Sheffield. So, it is possible your chisel was made by John Cutler, though, obviously, that isn't proven. I think I've seen some additional information about the "Crystallized Cast Steel" mark, but can't seem to find it at the moment. Hope this helps. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ++++ End of thread 50452 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50453 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130280 (thread 50453) ---- From: "CheekyGeek" Date: 2004-03-07 18:50:52 Subject: WTB: Round-sided 608 frog (and lever cap?) Porchlings, Anybody with a parts arsenal have a frog for a Type 3 or 4 Bedrock 608 that they would be willing to part with? The original has the "B" casting. Apparently this same plane was made for Keen Kutter and Winchester, so I'm hopeful that someone salvaged a frog from a broken bed. Mine had the top (with adjuster) broken off apparently a long time ago. Doesn't look like that really slowed the user down however, since there is only about 1/2" left on the "T" trademark blade. I'd be in the market for a correct lever cap also. Ping me with anything you might be willing to part with. TIA Darren Addy Kearney, Nebraska ++++ End of thread 50453 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50454 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130282 (thread 50454) ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-03-08 04:42:55 Subject: Narex followup For those who might be interested, I received this email from Narex in response to my enquirery about distributors in the US. The first two are well-known, anyone ever heard of the last one? I ordered a few of the chisels from Highland Hardware and they just arrived late last week. I haven't tried to hone one up yet so I can't comment on the steel yet. The handles were a bit over-finished with a shiney, probably polyurethane (sp?) finish. They seem like a solid set of medium-weight general purpose chisels. And for the price, hard to beat. Once I hone a few and try them out, I'll report back. AAAndrew Having a lot of scraper fun yesterday and glued up one end of the base of my table in Durham, North Carolina. --- Ctirad Coufal wrote: > From: "Ctirad Coufal" > To: > Subject: FX 04197 MIDKIFF > Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:25:21 +0100 > > Dear Mr.Midkiff, > We are very pleased with your interest about our > products. > We have 3 selling partners in USA and their > addresses are as follows: > > 1) GARRETT WADE COMPANY > 161 AVE OF AMERICAS > NEW YORK, NY 10013 > Fax: 212-255-8552 > > 2) HIGHLAND HARDWARE > 1045 N.HIGHLAND AVE > ATLANTA, GEORGIA 30306 > Fax: 4048761941 > > 3) ALDA ENTERPRISE > 1745 RODEO RD. > ARCADIA, CA 91006 > Tel.: 626-355-8560 > > Looking forward to hearing from you soon. > Best regards > Petr Stanìk > NAREX Bystrice > > --- > Odchozí zpráva neobsahuje viry. > Zkontrolováno antivirovým systémem AVG > (http://www.grisoft.cz). > Verze: 6.0.592 / Virová báze: 375 - datum vydání: > 18.2.2004 > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130295 (thread 50454) ---- From: Kirk Eppler Date: 2004-03-08 09:41:15 Subject: Re: Narex followup That address is in a residential neighborhood. Google turns up nothing useful. I'll see if a friend who lives nearby can do a drive by. Andrew Midkiff wrote: > The first two are well-known, anyone ever heard of the last one? > > > 3) ALDA ENTERPRISE > > 1745 RODEO RD. > > ARCADIA, CA 91006 > > Tel.: 626-355-8560 > -- Kirk Eppler Global Mfg Science and Technology Eppler.Kirk@g... ---- Start of Message 130325 (thread 50454) ---- From: "John Pesut" Date: 2004-03-08 19:20:32 Subject: Re: Narex followup Hey, when did Darren move? I never saw his change od address go by... > That address is in a residential neighborhood. Google turns up nothing > useful. I'll see if a friend who lives nearby can do a drive by. > > Andrew Midkiff wrote: > > > The first two are well-known, anyone ever heard of the last one? > > > > > 3) ALDA ENTERPRISE > > > 1745 RODEO RD. > > > ARCADIA, CA 91006 > > > Tel.: 626-355-8560 ---- Start of Message 130880 (thread 50454) ---- From: "John Meikrantz" Date: 2004-03-18 13:15:03 Subject: Re: Narex followup Andrew, Any update on the Narex chisels? I'm curious to see how they shape up. John -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin ---- Start of Message 130889 (thread 50454) ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-03-18 18:54:28 Subject: Re: Narex followup --- John Meikrantz wrote: > Andrew, > > Any update on the Narex chisels? I'm curious to see > how they shape up. > > John > Good timing. I had some time to sharpen them up this evening and try them out. http://www.umich.edu/~amidkiff/tools/narex/Narexset.jpg First, the feel in the hand. These are fairly lightweight chisels. But, that's not to say cheap or flimsy. They seem decently solid and able to take some whacking, but they seem better suited for paring and regular bench work. The handles are a bit over-finished and shiney, but the shaping with semi-flat areas felt nice in my hands, and when I was doing some basic shaping of the wood they were easy to keep a hold of and control. What about the steel? I honed them, which was pretty easy and tried them out on nasty old dry pine end grain. I've been told that one test of how sharp you can get a chisel is to cut end grain of a soft wood. http://www.umich.edu/~amidkiff/tools/narex/Narexendgrain.jpg They did pretty well. I could get a nice sharp edge. They compared well to some of my older chisels in ease of honing. I have no idea of how well they'll hold their edge but you can at least get them sharp fairly quickly. The case is pretty good but I'm not sure about the foam padding. It seems to me that the foam might be prone to holding moisture against the metal. I don't think I'll be keeping them in the case for long. Any thoughts on the foam? Overall, a nice set of light-weight, general-use chisels for an amazing price. I'll probably try to take some of the finish off of the handles and use these chisels often. I'd still like a set of heavier chisels, like some Two Cherries or even heavier, but these will a be good every-day set I won't worry too much about. Everyone should have a set of chisels they can abuse a bit more. These would be good ones to take on-site of for work around the house. Hope this was informative. AAAndrew Doing some tool tune-up in Durham, North Carolina. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130891 (thread 50454) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-18 22:17:02 Subject: Re: Narex followup > chisels for an amazing price. I'll probably try to > take some of the finish off of the handles and use > these chisels often. I'd still like a set of heavier If/when you do, could you let us know how easy/hard it is to remove the finish...purty please? > Hope this was informative. Very much. Thanks for the report. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130906 (thread 50454) ---- From: Scott Stager Date: 2004-03-19 08:19:05 Subject: Re: Narex followup I also ordered a set when they were first discussed. They were back ordered for about a week or so. Andrews pictures show the details. I'll add that they are slightly hollow ground. The edges "feel" sharp, but appear to have very tiny nicks in them - actually just a strange reflection of light. Also they appear to have a tiny secondary bevel already honed on the hollow ground. I'm pretty sure that the nicks are because of the backs not being polished. The final grind on the backs was coarse enough to show parallel grooves obvious to the unaided eye. But, not that bad really for a chisel that you would expect to have to hone. I haven't had the opportunity to work on them, but suspect that a little finishing of the back and honing on the bevel should produce a clean. No idea on durability. I agree on the coarse finish on the handles. Will definitely have to be smoothed out somehow. --Scott At 08:54 PM 3/18/2004, Andrew Midkiff wrote: >--- John Meikrantz wrote: > > Andrew, > > > > Any update on the Narex chisels? I'm curious to see > > how they shape up. > > > > John > > > >Good timing. I had some time to sharpen them up this >evening and try them out. >http://www.umich.edu/~amidkiff/tools/narex/Narexset.jpg > >First, the feel in the hand. These are fairly >lightweight chisels. But, that's not to say cheap or >flimsy. They seem decently solid and able to take some >whacking, but they seem better suited for paring and >regular bench work. The handles are a bit >over-finished and shiney, but the shaping with >semi-flat areas felt nice in my hands, and when I was >doing some basic shaping of the wood they were easy to >keep a hold of and control. What about the steel? > >I honed them, which was pretty easy and tried them out >on nasty old dry pine end grain. I've been told that >one test of how sharp you can get a chisel is to cut >end grain of a soft wood. >http://www.umich.edu/~amidkiff/tools/narex/Narexendgrain.jpg > +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ Scott Stager - Blacksmith/woodworker wannabe (University of Missouri) StagerS@m... Work Phone: (573)-882-9289 Home Phone: (573)-474-5955 ++++ End of thread 50454 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50455 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130289 (thread 50455) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-08 11:40:20 Subject: domestic dilema Last July, being in the nesting mode, swmbo decided to re-organize the basement storage closet (big room...lot's of bins and boxes stacked floor to ceiling). After removing all contents and spreading them out all over the finished side of the basement she ran out of inspiration and everything has been untouched since. I cleared a path to the T.V. and never let on about the mess and that it bothered me, knowing what the response would be. my little area http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=236 This week swmbo offered the visiting pastor a place to stay for a couple of days and re-inspired, decided it was time to deal with the mess. She described a built in bookcase for under the basement stair and asked me to go to work on it. After completing the basic carcase, I set it in place and called her down to give it the OK. She wasn't shy about telling me that it was not what she had invisioned. Not a problem, I'll use it in the shop. She came up with a new idea for a stepped bookcase on one wall under the stair, so I built that. I called her down for the inspection, "It's too deep for vidio's".... "Vidio's...heh????" So swmbo has ideas for more built-ins in the basement. Should I contract out or suck it up? regards jonathan ---- Start of Message 130290 (thread 50455) ---- From: "Pete Bergstrom" Date: 2004-03-08 10:48:35 Subject: Re: domestic dilema "Jonathan Peck" wrote: > So swmbo has ideas for more built-ins in the basement. Should I > contract out or suck it up? Been there, done that too. I've found that a detailed drawing with measurements does wonders; don't forget the signoff line. If I were in your shoes, I'd splurge on some large newsprint sheets and draw it out life-size. Good luck, Pete ---- Start of Message 130291 (thread 50455) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-08 08:52:37 Subject: Re: domestic dilema Sounds like you better call up Frank Lloyd Wright's more expensive cousin, still in business. Either that or hand the girl a saw. Only talk is cheap yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130296 (thread 50455) ---- From: Mark Marsay Date: 2004-03-08 17:54:24 Subject: Re: domestic dilema This makes me wonder if all women learn how to handle their men in the same class! (If you wonder about the "their" bit, think a minute about who is REALLY in charge at home). I'd say something along the lines of "you draw it and I'll build it ...... but I'll need more tools to do it" :-) Regards, Mark Marsay, Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. > >Subject: [oldtools] domestic dilema From: Jonathan Peck >Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:40:20 -0500 To: "oldtools" > >Last July, being in the nesting mode, swmbo decided to re-organize the >basement storage closet (big room...lot's of bins and boxes stacked >floor to ceiling). After removing all contents and spreading them out >all over the finished side of the basement she ran out of inspiration >and everything has been untouched since. I cleared a path to the T.V. >and never let on about the mess and that it bothered me, knowing what >the response would be. > >my little area >http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=236 > >This week swmbo offered the visiting pastor a place to stay for a >couple of days and re-inspired, decided it was time to deal with the >mess. She described a built in bookcase for under the basement stair >and asked me to go to work on it. After completing the basic carcase, I >set it in place and called her down to give it the OK. She wasn't shy >about telling me that it was not what she had invisioned. Not a >problem, I'll use it in the shop. She came up with a new idea for a >stepped bookcase on one wall under the stair, so I built that. I called >her down for the inspection, "It's too deep for vidio's".... >"Vidio's...heh????" > >So swmbo has ideas for more built-ins in the basement. Should I >contract out or suck it up? > >regards jonathan > > > > > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130298 (thread 50455) ---- From: "Mike Duchaj" Date: 2004-03-08 13:38:40 Subject: Re: domestic dilema Hello cabinetmakers! At our house we are building a large wall unit. It is in the 2nd phase. Things are going well thanks to the ground rules: I provide rough sketches and measured drawings for approval, then retain some artistic control in the shop. She makes noises of approval when I finsh pieces. Start with a "needs assessment" Mike Duchaj Elgin, IL ---- Start of Message 130299 (thread 50455) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-08 18:43:13 Subject: re: domestic dilema Sound to me like you move way to fast in the completion of these projects. Gotta slow way down so's she can see things as they progress, then every time she changes her mind about what she wanted (of course she will not admit to changeing her mind, just make it seem as though you weren't listening, misunderstood, or are just plain stupid) take more time to get the changes made, and getting back to where you would have been without the change order. Then make her come and look at the thing often in various stages so that she believes that it is about 10 times more difficult to do than it really is. She will then think twice or thrice about complaining that it wasn't what she wanted. ---- Start of Message 130301 (thread 50455) ---- From: "Bill Ghio" Date: 2004-03-08 14:09:56 Subject: RE: domestic dilema -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Peck She described a built in bookcase for under the basement stair and asked me to go to work on it. After completing the basic carcase, I set it in place and called her down to give it the OK. She wasn't shy about telling me that it was not what she had invisioned. Not a problem, I'll use it in the shop. She came up with a new idea for a stepped bookcase on one wall under the stair, so I built that. I called her down for the inspection, "It's too deep for vidio's".... "Vidio's...heh????" So swmbo has ideas for more built-ins in the basement. Should I contract out or suck it up? _________________________ I do two things, because this is a chronic problem in my household. First I do a detail drawing or a mock up (current project was mantle and surround done in a full size mock-up in ply and cardboard). Once I have approval on the basic design and start the project, I call her to inspect frequently. I try to time inspections around commitment points ("This is the last chance to adjust whatever, once the glue dries its final.) Sometimes I can get away w/ "It's too late for that." Other times I solve the problem by telling her "Not a problem, I'll just rip it out and start over." And sometimes she accepts that option. Good luck, Bill ---- Start of Message 130302 (thread 50455) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-08 13:41:27 Subject: RE: domestic dilema I can't agree enough with the others who mentioned a full sized mockup. Get down detail, detail, detail. Get style ideas, too. As far as the depth for the videos that can be remedied by adding a drawer for the videos to lay in, titles up. I found a dresser drawer that works great for this. Three rows with the titles facing up at me, three rows where the tapes are end to end. Plus it reduces the dusting of an open bookcase. I wish you lots and lots of luck as I know the frustrations of this and I do a lot of what Bill mentioned about saying this will be permanent after the glue dries and so forth. Kind of get feedback step by step while still sticking with the overall design. It's tricky. Chances are she won't be able to describe what she is thinking to someone else even if you do contract it out. The other really handy thing here can be to use available magazine pictures or actual in store designs. Once she picks it, stick to it. Either that or tell her to pick up the mess she left laying around all over and get out of the house before the blast wave hits. Also hope the EM Pulse doesn't render your car useless because you might need to use the kid's bike or skateboard to make a quick get a way! > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Peck > > She described a built in bookcase for under the basement stair > and asked me to go to work on it. After completing the basic > carcase, I set it in place and called her down to give it the OK. > She wasn't shy about telling me that it was not what she had > invisioned. Not a problem, I'll use it in the shop. She came up with > a new idea for a stepped bookcase on one wall under the stair, so I > built that. I called her down for the inspection, "It's too deep for > vidio's".... "Vidio's...heh????" > ---- Start of Message 130310 (thread 50455) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-08 15:17:19 Subject: Re: domestic dilema Hello all, Paul Bergstrom said: >I've found that a detailed drawing with measurements does wonders; >don't forget the signoff line. I think it went something like this "can you build this now, I'd like to get this place organized" Captain - "I need warp speed" Scotty - "I'm givin' it all she's got sir, she's breaking up!" Captain - "eject the warp core" Of course the captain always gets to shuttle off to some exotic place, kick some alien butt, and get the girl. All I got was an invitation to help clean up. Scott Grandstaff added: >Sounds like you better call up Frank Lloyd Wright's more expensive >cousin, still in business. This would surely help in the custom, gizmosity, feasability, constructability phase. Amazingly dead on target. Paul Morin added: >It's like any other job I've worked at, most of the job is >explaining to the client what they need, and why what they think >they want isn't going to work. When we moved into our apartment in March of 03, I drew plans for custom closet interiors (plan view, elevation and section). One year later my closet is the only one that's built. see: custom, gizmosity, feasability, constructability phase above. Esther Heller added a different view: >For your wife, some comments along the line of "I want to be >certain to make exactly what you have in mind darling..." would >probably grease the system a bit. You mean AARRRRGGGGH!!!! isn't an effective negotiating tactic? Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 130316 (thread 50455) ---- From: "Gary Katsanis" Date: 2004-03-08 16:17:37 Subject: Re: domestic dilema Free advice is sometimes worth what you pay for it, but I would 'suck it up' and do my best to give her what she wants (or can live with) when she wants it. First of all, I would get SWMBO's blessing for shop time. Second, it sounds like she wants to keep a commitment to the visiting pastor, on a fairly urgent basis. If I come through with support for her commitment, my wife usually remembers it for a long time. While it might be personally satisfying to get her to admit that she left the basement a mess for a year, and it might be more efficient with your time to insist on final commitment to a specific design before you start, it sounds like this is not the best time. A lot depends on her personality too. Is this the first time she has done this to you, or is it the way she always is? Gary K Close to Buffalo NY PS - a good relationship with SWMBO is based on adapting to her personality and character - my wife and I have been married for 17 years now, and . . . well, I guess eventually I'll adapt . . . PPS - nice job on the entertainment center in the picture! If you have trouble with space and have to get rid of the contents, please pack everything carefully and send it to me; I'll see that it gets a good home. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Peck" To: "oldtools" Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 11:40 AM Subject: [oldtools] domestic dilema > Last July, being in the nesting mode, swmbo decided to re-organize > the basement storage closet (big room...lot's of bins and boxes > stacked floor to ceiling). After removing all contents and spreading > them out all over the finished side of the basement she ran out of > inspiration and everything has been untouched since. I cleared a > path to the T.V. and never let on about the mess and that it > bothered me, knowing what the response would be. > > my little area > http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=236 > > This week swmbo offered the visiting pastor a place to stay for a > couple of days and re-inspired, decided it was time to deal with the > mess. She described a built in bookcase for under the basement stair > and asked me to go to work on it. After completing the basic > carcase, I set it in place and called her down to give it the OK. > She wasn't shy about telling me that it was not what she had > invisioned. Not a problem, I'll use it in the shop. She came up with > a new idea for a stepped bookcase on one wall under the stair, so I > built that. I called her down for the inspection, "It's too deep for > vidio's".... "Vidio's...heh????" > > So swmbo has ideas for more built-ins in the basement. Should I > contract out or suck it up? > > regards > jonathan > > > > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130317 (thread 50455) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-08 16:27:06 Subject: re: domestic dilema Jerry wrote and I snipped: >just make it seem as though you weren't listening, misunderstood, >or are just plain stupid) She's already certain of all three and BTW, so is SWMBOette who at six has already learned "the look" Swmbo's dad, having four daughters, and even the dog being a girl was known to drive 600 miles to save the shipping cost for a replacement motor on a 30 year old washing machine (true story). Me, I finally got my boy -:) http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=241 jonathan - who is still wondering how a smooth talking southern minister not only talked his way into our house, but would be more comfortable in our bed. ---- Start of Message 130353 (thread 50455) ---- From: "Kaye, Danny" Date: 2004-03-09 11:30:57 Subject: RE: domestic dilema SSB3YXMgZmVlbGluZyBicmF2ZSwgaXQgd2VudA0KIA0Kc2hlOiBJIGhhdGUgYnVpbHQgaW4gd2Fy ZHJvYmVzLCB3ZSBuZWVkIGEgbG90IG9mIHN0b3JhZ2UgKHN1YnRleHQgeW91IGhhdmUgdG9vIG1h bnkgY2xvdGhlcykNCm1lOiBpdCB3aWxsIGJlIGZpbmUsIEknbGwgcHV0IHR3byByYWlscyBhbmQg Y3VwYm9hcmRzIGhlcmUsIGhlcmUgYW5kIGhlcmUNCnNoZTogaXQgd29uJ3QgYmUgZW5vdWdoDQpt ZTogSSdsbCBidWlsZCBpdCwgSSBjYW4gYWx3YXlzIGNoYW5nZSBpdCBsYXRlciAod2hlbiBJIGdl dCByb3VuZCB0byBpdCkNCiANCmxhdGVyDQogDQpzaGU6IHRoZXJlcyBhIGxvdCAgb2YgZW1wdHkg c3RvcmFnZSBoZXJlLCBJIGxpa2UgdGhlIGRvb3JzLCBpdCBkb2Vzbid0IGxvb2sgbGlrZSBidWls dCBpbiwgSSBsaWtlIGl0DQogDQpjbGluY2hlZCBieQ0KIA0KIzIgZGF1Z2h0ZXI6IGNhbiBJIGhh dmUgc29tZSBsaWtlIHRoYXQNCiANCnBoZXcgLSBnb3QgYXdheSB3aXRoIGl0LiBNb3ZpbmcgaW50 byBhIGJyYW5kIG5ldyBob3VzZSB3aXRoIG5vIGZpdHRpbmdzIGlzIGZ1biwgMTEgbGlnaHQgZml0 dGluZ3MsIGJ1aWx0IGluIHdhcmRyb2JlcyogYW5kIHVtcHRlZW4gc2hlbHZlcyBldGMgaW4gMiB3 ZWVrcywgYWxsIEkgaGF2ZSB0byBkbyBub3cgaXMgYnVpbGQgYSB3b3Jrc2hvcCBhbmQgZ2V0IHJv dW5kIHRvIHRoZSBkZXNrIGZvciAjMSBkYXVnaHRlciBldGMgZXRjDQogDQpkYW5ueQ0KIA0KKndl bGwgZXhjZXB0IHR3byBkb29ycyB0aGF0IEkgaGF2ZSBub3QgZmluaXNoZWQgeWV0IGFuZCBwYWlu dC9zdGFpbiBvciBzb21ldGhpbmcgdGhlIHdob2xlIHRoaW5nDQoNCgktLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1l c3NhZ2UtLS0tLSANCglGcm9tOiBKb25hdGhhbiBQZWNrIFttYWlsdG86anBlY2tAbWNnb2NvLmNv bV0gDQoJU2VudDogTW9uIDA4LzAzLzIwMDQgMjA6MTcgDQoJVG86IG9sZHRvb2xzIA0KCUNjOiAN CglTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW29sZHRvb2xzXSBkb21lc3RpYyBkaWxlbWENCgkNCgkNCg0KCUhlbGxv IGFsbCwNCgkNCglQYXVsIEJlcmdzdHJvbSBzYWlkOg0KCT5JJ3ZlIGZvdW5kIHRoYXQgYSBkZXRh aWxlZCBkcmF3aW5nIHdpdGggbWVhc3VyZW1lbnRzIGRvZXMgd29uZGVyczsNCgk+ZG9uJ3QgZm9y Z2V0IHRoZSBzaWdub2ZmIGxpbmUuDQoJDQoJSSB0aGluayBpdCB3ZW50IHNvbWV0aGluZyBsaWtl IHRoaXMgImNhbiB5b3UgYnVpbGQgdGhpcyBub3csIEknZA0KCWxpa2UgdG8gZ2V0IHRoaXMgcGxh Y2Ugb3JnYW5pemVkIg0KCUNhcHRhaW4gLSAiSSBuZWVkIHdhcnAgc3BlZWQiDQoJU2NvdHR5IC0g IkknbSBnaXZpbicgaXQgYWxsIHNoZSdzIGdvdCBzaXIsIHNoZSdzIGJyZWFraW5nIHVwISINCglD YXB0YWluIC0gImVqZWN0IHRoZSB3YXJwIGNvcmUiDQoJDQoJPHNuaXA+DQoNCg== ---- Start of Message 130363 (thread 50455) ---- From: "Rodgers Charles" Date: 2004-03-09 09:02:21 Subject: re: domestic dilema Jerry offered Jonathon some advice: > Sound to me like you move way to fast... snipped > Then make her come and look...so she believes that it is > about 10 times more difficult to do than it really is. Yeah, and take your time. SWMBO asked me to convert a small (10' X 10') spare bedroom into a walk-in closet. No problem, says I. I had the wall brackets, hangar rods, and shelves up in a month or so. At that point, she said "there's no hurry on the rest of it" so I've been workng on the partitions and the doors for the last 15 months. My (unspoken) rule is to never finish anything she asks for before she nags me about it-at least three or four times. Cuts down on the number of things she asks me to do. Otherwise, I never get any time for my projects. I've never refused to make anything for her, and if it really is urgent, everything else gets set aside. > She will then think twice or thrice about > complaining that it wasn't what she wanted. I'm less sure about this...IME that's never deterred her. Oldtool content: Just last night I was trimming one of the partitions with my gunter-shave, 60-1/2, and 3/8" Diefenbach chisel. They work quite well on sheet goods.. Charlie Rodgers Clinton, Maryland ++++ End of thread 50455 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50456 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130294 (thread 50456) ---- From: "A Frampton" Date: 2004-03-08 17:05:24 Subject: Plane ID - German? GGs, A moderately successful spot of rust hunting over the weekend resulted in me re-homing a wooden jointer plane, amongst other things. Identification eludes me, but I have hopes the list will come through. The stats: 24" long, 3" wide, wood unknown but not beech. Stamped on the heel "57m/m" and two marks. One is a triangle pointing down inside which there is stamped "S.W." at the top and a "B" underneath. The other looks for all the world like a cherub beating a diplodocus to death. Honest! Diplodocus lying down, head arched up and backwards, under-dressed fellow with wings and a stratigically placed whisp of cloth standing on its back waving a stick or something in his arm. Either side of this charming scene of animal cruelty are an "O" and a "K". Well you may think it's OK, but really... The iron meanwhile is a tapered affair, 56mm wide. Stamped across the top is what appears to be "RADIUM" although the last letter is a little unclear. Have I got a radioactive plane iron...? Also a much deeper stamp in the familiar arch shape with "KASTANIENBLATT" over the arch and "GUSS STAHL GARANTIE" underneath. Inside the arch is -what I now guess to be- a chestnut leaf. No prizes for pointing out that all that's German for "Chestnut Leaf" and "Guaranteed cast steel" btw. Unless the online German-English dictionary has lead me astray... So which maker, presumably German, used chestnut leaves as a trademark, in the same way Bill Marples and his boys used a shamrock? And who favoured that charming scene of carnage as their means of identification? If anyone can shed some light I'd be obliged, as I know zilch about continental makers so it's about time I learnt. Cheers, Alf Taking the long way round to say "Got a plane; who made it?" in Cornwall UK _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger ---- Start of Message 130351 (thread 50456) ---- From: "Jordan, Wolfgang" Date: 2004-03-09 10:25:19 Subject: RE: Plane ID - German? Alf, the maker of your plane was Otto Kneisel (OK) in Zeitz, Germany. I have = some info on my site about Kneisel: http://www.holzwerken.de/museum/hersteller/kneisel.phtml (in German) The Kneisel factory was running from 1872 until 1934. Their trademark = was taken from the city arms of Zeitz, the archangel Michael fighting = the dragon. The wood of this jointer is probably hornbeam (Carpinus betulus), = because this was the primary wood used for German planes back then. I have no idea about the other stamps on plane body and iron. The = chestnut leaf is new to me, but it reminds me of the chestnut tree used = by Heinrich B=F6ker in Solingen. They may have used the leaf at some = time in their history: http://www.boker.de/ I've seen the 'SWB' in a triangle and 'RADIUM' occasionally, but cannot = connect it to a company: http://www.holzwerken.de/pics/radium_swb.jpg They seem to appear always together. Something tells me they might be = stamps applied by a French trader, maybe because I have a presumably = French toothing plane with these marks: http://www.holzwerken.de/museum/special/zahn1.phtml HTH, Wolfgang ---- Start of Message 130352 (thread 50456) ---- From: "A Frampton" Date: 2004-03-09 09:43:23 Subject: RE: Plane ID - German? Wolfgang wrote (well lots, and answered practically everything!) but amongst other things: >the maker of your plane was Otto Kneisel (OK) in Zeitz, Germany. I have >some info on my site about Kneisel: >http://www.holzwerken.de/museum/hersteller/kneisel.phtml (in German) >The Kneisel factory was running from 1872 until 1934. Their trademark was >taken from the city arms of Zeitz, the archangel Michael fighting the >dragon. Yep, that's the fellow. I did think it was probably a dragon, but that always means "St George" to the English, and he was definitely wing-less. Makes the plane at least 20 years older than I guessed. Thank you very much indeed, Wolfgang. Brilliant stuff. And as others have said before me, "Ain't the list great"? :~) Cheers, Alf In Cornwall, GB wishing she'd taken German lessons :~( _________________________________________________________________ Sign-up for a FREE BT Broadband connection today! http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband ---- Start of Message 130376 (thread 50456) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-09 07:18:05 Subject: RE: Plane ID - German? --- "Jordan, Wolfgang" wrote: The wood of this jointer is probably hornbeam (Carpinus betulus), > because this was the primary wood used for German planes back then. Hi guys--- I'm reminded of a question I've wanted to put to the porch for some time---Who's heard of "Plane trees", which are apparently a kind of sycamore, being used to make planes? I've read about this in two separate and "creditable" sources---if you should take the tree tour of the UofW, and you should, you'd see a row of these trees about a half a mile long and at least sixty feet high. The tour map text tells the story of the plane tree. btw, this tour is well worth taking in the winter as well as the summer---lots of evergreens; buy the map at the bookstore and wear comfortable shoes. Recently, I read that the trees that line so many of the country roads in France (many of which are lately being cut to widen these roads) are plane trees, again with the story. Credence? please advise; GAM in Seattle __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130387 (thread 50456) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-09 13:45:19 Subject: Re: Plane ID - German? Hi Gary & All, I've known about "plane trees" since I was a toddler, but I've never heard of their having anything to do with making planes and I seriously doubt that. I did a bit of Google checking and found nothing there about that usage of them. One site had a thing about the name being derived from the Greek - but nothing re what Greek words or such was involved. The botanical name is something like platanus which could maybe be twisted into plane. There seem to be mixed opinions re whether the American sycamore is a type of plane tree or not; some Google sites say it is, but others say NO-NO - they just have a resemblance to one another. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130403 (thread 50456) ---- From: "David Clapp" Date: 2004-03-09 15:29:34 Subject: RE: Plane ID - German? Alf's description of a plane included: "Also a much deeper stamp in the familiar arch shape with "KASTANIENBLATT" over the arch and "GUSS STAHL GARANTIE" underneath. Inside the arch is -what I now guess to be- a chestnut leaf. No prizes for pointing out that all that's German for "Chestnut Leaf" and "Guaranteed cast steel" btw." She later signed off by writing: ">In Cornwall, GB wishing she'd taken German lessons :~(" Well, I recently picked up a saw with GUSSTAHL stamped on the blade and spent more than a few minutes poring over an atlas to figure out just where in Germany it was located. David Clapp In Illinois, USA wishing he'd taken German language AND geography lessons :~( _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ---- Start of Message 130407 (thread 50456) ---- From: Jerry Davis Date: 2004-03-09 17:13:58 Subject: Re: Plane ID - German? reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) wrote: > twisted into plane. There seem to be mixed opinions re whether the > American sycamore is a type of plane tree or not; some Google sites say > it is, but others say NO-NO - they just have a resemblance to one > another. They are all in the family Platanaceae. Which in laymans terms is the Sycamore or Planetree family. There are 7-8 species worldwide, three of them are native to the US. Platanus occidentalis in the east and P. wrightii and P. racemosa in the west. London planetree is thought to be a hybrid between P. occidentalis and P. orientalis (Oriental plane) and has been planted in the US as a street tree.* Plane seems to be a Middle English/Old French derivation from the Latin platanus which is from the Greek platanos meaning broad. I guess it sounded good to Linneas so that's what he wrote down. *Harlow, Harrar and White, Textbook of Dendrology. Jerry Griffin, GA ++++ End of thread 50456 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50457 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130303 (thread 50457) ---- From: "Roger Nixon" Date: 2004-03-08 19:50:17 Subject: Vulcan Dynamic claw hammer? I bought a box of stuff at an auction last Saturday. One of the items was a claw hammer with "Vulcan Dynamic" stamped on the side. Anyone know anything about this brand? I also got a hewing hatchet marked "Stowe Supply". I found that Stowe Supply was operating in Kansas City, MO in 1927. Does anyone have any other information? Thanks, Roger Nixon ++++ End of thread 50457 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50458 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130304 (thread 50458) ---- From: Joshua Clark Date: 2004-03-08 15:04:18 Subject: A Couple of Oddities Well, spring is just around the corner here in the Northeast, even though it's spitting snow as I write this. Most of the ice that has covered the driveway for the past three months has melted.. I just saw my first bluebird of the year in the juniper tree outside the window.. And last friday I went to my first estate sale of the year hoping to find some tools.. I got there at noon so there wasn't much left along the lines of tools, but I surprised to find a few nice things including two interesting tools: First, I pulled an old Disston out of what was once a nice tool chest. Straight back, nib, fancy handle with split nuts and the extra "loop" towards the bottom, no wheat carving- I assumed it was a #9, but when I got it home and cleaned it up, the etch clearly says it's a cast steel #7. The other interesting item of note is that I'm almost 100% certain the handle is beech and not apple as the #9/#12 handles were. I can clearly see ray flecks in the handle and a much more open grain structure than the usual apple handles. I would suspect that it's a "franken-saw" if t weren't for the split nuts which look original and untampered with.. http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/tmp/odd1.JPG http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/tmp/odd2.JPG I also found an interesting framing square.. now I don't usually pick up framing squares unless they're unusual (take-down, or from an desirable maker) but I thought this one was unusual. It's a Stanley Handyman 500c copper-plated framing square. I always believed that the Handyman line of tools was a low-end line so I was surprised to see a copper plated square. According to my Stanley reprints, copped plating on a framing square always demanded a premium above that of the standard polished, blued, or nickel plated versions. If the handyman line was indeed a low-end line marketed toward homeowners, why the copper plating? http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/tmp/odd3.JPG As an aside, can someone tell me when the Handyman line of tools was introduced? Walter's Stanley guide doesn't mention the handyman line at all, and all of my catalog reprints predate Handyman. Happy Hunting! -Josh in CT- ++++ End of thread 50458 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50459 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130305 (thread 50459) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 2004-03-08 15:06:07 Subject: And What Size? Galoots, I hope one of you is not the buyer. What size is this and did it sell for about 4 times it's value? < http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3278314449&category=13874 > *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * *********************************************** ---- Start of Message 130311 (thread 50459) ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-03-08 14:20:37 Subject: Re: And What Size? Hi Karl, If it's a #2, it seems to have sold for about 1/4 the value (1/2???) It doesn't look like a #2 to me. The twisted lateral lever? the marking low on the lever cap? It looks like some fine print below the lever cap retaining bolt. It would be fun to have someone chip in who got it or knows what it really is. Tom On Mar 8, 2004, at 2:06 PM, Karl W. Sanger wrote: > Galoots, > I hope one of you is not the buyer. What size is this and did it > sell for about 4 times it's value? > < > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? > ViewItem&item=3278314449&category=13874 > > > > *********************************************** > * Karl W. Sanger * > * Desperately seeking antique * > * Machinist Tools!!! * > * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * > * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * > *********************************************** > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 130315 (thread 50459) ---- From: "Foster, Jim" Date: 2004-03-08 14:49:42 Subject: RE: And What Size? Well, at 9 1/2" it's either a 4 or 4 1/2, and it doesn't look=20 wide enough to be a 4 1/2, so I'd say it's a pretty crummy 4. IMHO, of course, and if this was purchased by a galoot on the list, I'd contact the seller and see about getting out of this deal if=20 possible. Plus, always check B&G (Patrick Leech's Stanley Blood and Gore, http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0.htm) as a great first stop, online reference for plane/scraper questions. That would have told them that a #2 is only 7" long.=20 Jim Foster Minnesota > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas Johnson [mailto:thjo@f...] > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 2:21 PM > To: oldtools > Cc: oldtools > Subject: Re: [oldtools] And What Size? >=20 >=20 > Hi Karl, > If it's a #2, it seems to have sold for about 1/4 the value (1/2???) > It doesn't look like a #2 to me. The twisted lateral lever? the =20 > marking low on the lever cap? It looks like some fine print=20 > below the =20 > lever cap retaining bolt. It would be fun to have someone=20 > chip in who =20 > got it or knows what it really is. >=20 > Tom >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mar 8, 2004, at 2:06 PM, Karl W. Sanger wrote: >=20 > > Galoots, > > I hope one of you is not the buyer. What size is this=20 > and did it =20 > > sell for about 4 times it's value? > > < =20 > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?=20 > > ViewItem&item=3D3278314449&category=3D13874 > > > > > > > *********************************************** > > * Karl W. Sanger * > > * Desperately seeking antique * > > * Machinist Tools!!! * > > * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * > > * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * > > *********************************************** > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=3Doldtools > > >=20 >=20 > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=3Doldtools >=20 ---- Start of Message 130319 (thread 50459) ---- From: "Jon Endres, PE" Date: 2004-03-08 17:09:35 Subject: RE: And What Size? Looks like a run-of-the-mill #4 to me, and the size is about right. > -----Original Message----- > From: Karl W. Sanger [mailto:sangerkw@m...] > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 3:06 PM > To: oldtools > Subject: [oldtools] And What Size? > > > Galoots, > I hope one of you is not the buyer. What size is this and > did it sell for > about 4 times it's value? > < > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3278314449&cate > gory=13874 > > > > *********************************************** > * Karl W. Sanger * > * Desperately seeking antique * > * Machinist Tools!!! * > * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * > * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * > *********************************************** > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 130322 (thread 50459) ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-03-08 18:46:32 Subject: Re: And What Size? Thomas Johnson wrote: > Hi Karl, > If it's a #2, it seems to have sold for about 1/4 the value (1/2???) > It doesn't look like a #2 to me. The twisted lateral lever? the > marking low on the lever cap? It looks like some fine print below the > lever cap retaining bolt. It would be fun to have someone chip in who > got it or knows what it really is. > > Tom > GG And it is 9-1/2" long - more like a #3. Looks like a $4 plane to me. Ed Minch Just back from the Napa Valley where they have beat up and painted red Millers-Falls breast drills for $110 ---- Start of Message 130328 (thread 50459) ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 2004-03-08 20:13:56 Subject: Re: And What Size? Looks like Granny made another killer sale. At 03:06 PM 3/8/2004 -0500, Karl W. Sanger wrote: >Galoots, > I hope one of you is not the buyer. What size is this and did it > sell for about 4 times it's value? ---- Start of Message 130354 (thread 50459) ---- From: "Kaye, Danny" Date: 2004-03-09 11:34:53 Subject: RE: And What Size? aXQgc2F5cyA5biAxLzIgaW5jaCBsb25nIHNvIGl0cyBub3QgYSAjMiwgSSBhc3N1bWUgYSAjNCBv ciAgIzQgMS8yDQogDQpkYW5ueQ0KDQoJLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0gDQoJRnJv bTogVGhvbWFzIEpvaG5zb24gW21haWx0bzp0aGpvQGZyb250aWVybmV0Lm5ldF0gDQoJU2VudDog TW9uIDA4LzAzLzIwMDQgMjA6MjAgDQoJVG86IG9sZHRvb2xzIA0KCUNjOiBvbGR0b29scyANCglT dWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW29sZHRvb2xzXSBBbmQgV2hhdCBTaXplPw0KCQ0KCQ0KDQoJSGkgS2FybCwN CglJZiBpdCdzIGEgIzIsIGl0IHNlZW1zIHRvIGhhdmUgc29sZCBmb3IgYWJvdXQgMS80IHRoZSB2 YWx1ZSAoMS8yPz8/KQ0KCUl0IGRvZXNuJ3QgbG9vayBsaWtlIGEgIzIgdG8gbWUuICBUaGUgdHdp c3RlZCBsYXRlcmFsIGxldmVyPyAgdGhlIA0KCW1hcmtpbmcgbG93IG9uIHRoZSBsZXZlciBjYXA/ ICBJdCBsb29rcyBsaWtlIHNvbWUgZmluZSBwcmludCBiZWxvdyB0aGUgDQoJbGV2ZXIgY2FwIHJl dGFpbmluZyBib2x0LiAgSXQgd291bGQgYmUgZnVuIHRvIGhhdmUgc29tZW9uZSBjaGlwIGluIHdo byANCglnb3QgaXQgb3Iga25vd3Mgd2hhdCBpdCByZWFsbHkgaXMuDQoJDQoJVG9tDQoJDQoJDQoJ DQoJT24gTWFyIDgsIDIwMDQsIGF0IDI6MDYgUE0sIEthcmwgVy4gU2FuZ2VyIHdyb3RlOg0KCQ0K CT4gR2Fsb290cywNCgk+ICAgICAgIEkgaG9wZSBvbmUgb2YgeW91IGlzIG5vdCB0aGUgYnV5ZXIu ICBXaGF0IHNpemUgaXMgdGhpcyBhbmQgZGlkIGl0IA0KCT4gc2VsbCBmb3IgYWJvdXQgNCB0aW1l cyBpdCdzIHZhbHVlPw0KCT4gICAgICAgPCANCgk+IGh0dHA6Ly9jZ2kuZWJheS5jb20vd3MvZUJh eUlTQVBJLmRsbD8NCgk+IFZpZXdJdGVtJml0ZW09MzI3ODMxNDQ0OSZjYXRlZ29yeT0xMzg3NCA+ DQoJPg0KCT4NCgk+ICoqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioq KioqDQoJPiAqICAgS2FybCBXLiBTYW5nZXIgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg Kg0KCT4gKiAgICAgICAgRGVzcGVyYXRlbHkgc2Vla2luZyBhbnRpcXVlICAgICAgICoNCgk+ICog ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIE1hY2hpbmlzdCBUb29scyEhISAgICAgICAgICAgKg0KCT4gKiAo RW1haWw6IHNhbmdlcmt3QG1pbmRzcHJpbmcuY29tKSAgICoNCgk+ICogICAgIGluIHRoZSBOYXR1 cmUgQ29hc3QgYXJlYSwgRmxvcmlkYSAgICAqDQoJPiAqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioq KioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKg0KCT4NCgk+IEFyY2hpdmU6IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZnJvbnRp ZXIuaWFyYy51YWYuZWR1L35jc3dpbmdsZS9hcmNoaXZlLw0KCT4gVG8gdW5zdWJzY3JpYmUgb3Ig Y2hhbmdlIG9wdGlvbnMsIHVzZSB0aGUgd2ViIGludGVyZmFjZToNCgk+ICAgIGh0dHA6Ly9nYWxv b3RzLmxhdy5jb3JuZWxsLmVkdTo4MS9yZWFkLz9mb3J1bT1vbGR0b29scw0KCT4NCgkNCgkNCglB cmNoaXZlOiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmZyb250aWVyLmlhcmMudWFmLmVkdS9+Y3N3aW5nbGUvYXJjaGl2 ZS8NCglUbyB1bnN1YnNjcmliZSBvciBjaGFuZ2Ugb3B0aW9ucywgdXNlIHRoZSB3ZWIgaW50ZXJm YWNlOg0KCSAgICBodHRwOi8vZ2Fsb290cy5sYXcuY29ybmVsbC5lZHU6ODEvcmVhZC8/Zm9ydW09 b2xkdG9vbHMNCgkNCg0K ---- Start of Message 130401 (thread 50459) ---- From: "John Pesut" Date: 2004-03-09 16:06:23 Subject: Re: And What Size? This message was dangerously close to not making it through my spam filter... Subject: RE: [oldtools] And What Size? > it says 9n 1/2 inch long so its not a #2, I assume a #4 or #4 1/2 ++++ End of thread 50459 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50460 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130306 (thread 50460) ---- From: "YARROW, GARY" Date: 2004-03-08 14:14:44 Subject: FW: RE: [oldtools] ??? new forests > > At a good friend's wedding a few summers ago, I met his > father, the > > chief engineer of a wood-burning electrical plant in Michigan---one > > can only assume that there are more of these around---another reason > > to say "NO" to plugs, IYAM---- Some of these wood powered plants are actually coming back, of course, they are now called "biomass generators", and can burn almost anything with carbon in it. When I was in grad school at the Univ of MN, they had a program looking for the fastest growing birch/poplar/and others in genetic stocks. There are now farms devoted to growing and cutting these things for biomass. It was amazing how fast some of them grew. Essentially, its just like growing corn, except with a 3-7 year cycle, instead of one year. They are using old mined areas, rough areas, not prime forest land. To me, its not a bad idea, since they are also sucking up some waste carbon (of course then releasing it eventually), but its better than tearing up more land for coal. Gary ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dr. Gary L. Yarrow, Director/RSO/CCHO Environmental Health and Safety SH 059; Box 2202 South Dakota State University Brookings, SD 57007-0796 605-688-6332 > ++++ End of thread 50460 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50461 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130307 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 2004-03-08 15:10:08 Subject: Shipping Costs Galoots, The items says, "Buyer pays all shipping costs". The item will fit in a box 34 inches, by 10 inches by 10 inches. It weighs more more than 10 pounds. Would you pay $29.50 from a northern east coast city to central Florida? No insurance! Anyone know of a complaint department on eBay for reporting sellers who are profiting on shipping? Karl ---- Start of Message 130313 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Carl Matthews" Date: 2004-03-08 14:35:19 Subject: RE: Shipping Costs Hi Karl and GG's, I had a similar problem with a package. The seller would only use the USPS. For a vise, this was not cheap. EBay has some rules regarding charges at http://www.ebay.com/help/policies/listing-surcharges.html. For now on, I request a shipping quote for all items which I'm interested prior to bidding. Best regards, ....Carl=20 PS - I prefer FedEx ground over UPS ground due package damage. > -----Original Message----- > From: Karl W. Sanger [mailto:sangerkw@m...]=20 > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 2:10 PM > To: oldtools > Subject: [oldtools] Shipping Costs >=20 > Galoots, > The items says, "Buyer pays all shipping costs". The=20 > item will fit in a box 34 inches, by 10 inches by 10 inches. =20 > It weighs more more than 10 pounds. Would you pay $29.50=20 > from a northern east coast city to central Florida? No insurance! > Anyone know of a complaint department on eBay for=20 > reporting sellers who are profiting on shipping? >=20 > Karl >=20 > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=3Doldtools >=20 >=20 ---- Start of Message 130314 (thread 50461) ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-03-08 15:42:26 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs Karl asked: > The items says, "Buyer pays all shipping costs". The item will fit in a > box 34 inches, by 10 inches by 10 inches. It weighs more more than 10 > pounds. Would you pay $29.50 from a northern east coast city to central > Florida? No insurance! > Anyone know of a complaint department on eBay for reporting sellers who > are profiting on shipping? > I have had similar things happen. I have contacted the seller and told them they did not advertise the handling fee and that their fee was unreasonable. I have asked them to reduce it to actual shipping cost, or I would leave negative (and true) feedback. In both cases that I experienced, they got much more reasonable very quickly. Chris ---- Start of Message 130318 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Sanford Moss" Date: 2004-03-08 17:02:43 Subject: RE: Shipping Costs Karl asks; >The items says, "Buyer pays all shipping costs". The item will fit in a >box 34 inches, by 10 inches by 10 inches. It weighs more more than 10 >pounds. Would you pay $29.50 from a northern east coast city to central >Florida? No insurance! Karl & all, I ship many packages each week, so maybe this qualifies for a comment or two. Your package, at 10 lbs, would ship from my house (not in a city, but "northern east coast") for about $14.00 priority mail, usps. That's what I'd charge you. BUT: In addition to postage, "shipping costs" can reasonably include the price of the packaging materials, plus the labor costs associated with packing and addressing, and the travel costs to the post office (or pick-up charges). If you've priced shipping boxes, bubble wrap, "peanuts", and shipping labels lately, you know that these materials can cost several dollars for a package of the cited size. Properly set up, it might take me, say, 15 minutes to properly pack and label such an item (that's 1/4 of an hour of labor). Even at minimum wage, you are talking a couple of dollars. My trip to and from the post office requires 10 miles of driving. That's another 3 bucks or so, given the federal tax deduction for milage. So add it all up, and I think $29.50 may not be such an unreasonable figure for "all shipping costs." Methinks that galoots who pay just "exact postage" for shipping costs are getting a deal. But I don't think your eBay dealer is working to make a profit on shipping. Best regards, Sandy _________________________________________________________________ Frustrated with dial-up? Lightning-fast Internet access for as low as $29.95/month. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/ ---- Start of Message 130320 (thread 50461) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-08 17:33:54 Subject: RE: Shipping Costs I have also experience hidden charges, though nothing extravagant. However, I have also had the opposite happen more than once, where the actual charges on the box were quite a bit more than what was quoted and what I paid. So I figure it all evens out in the end and don't get too exited (anymore). Paul Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130324 (thread 50461) ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-03-08 19:20:11 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs I sell a good many tools on the ebay and I charge just what it cost's me to ship.Since I do this I can not if the item weighs over a pound put in the items description what the shipping charges will be.I certainly don't mind if a serious bidder emails me and ask what it will be to ship to their address and I look it up and tell them. Of course I get many emails like this..." I don't know what you are trying to pull but I see you have not including what the shipping costs are for the plane, I will not bid until I know how much you will be charging to ship it to me"..... I write back explaining to them I charge the actual shipping cost and never any handling and that is why I don't include it in the auction because I don't know where I will be sending it till after the auction and the further they are from me the more it will cost to ship.. Even though I have placed my forehead on my monitor screen over their email I have not been able to use my psychic abilities to come up where exactly they are and where I would be shipping the plane so how about they give me a little hint and I will give them then a price because other wise I don't know if they live in the next state over, California, Lower Slobovia or that new Slow Head colony on the far side of the Moon. Even though I try to charge the actual shipping sometimes I can be slightly off, just as likely to not charge enough as to much. Had one guy once leave me a negative, out of the blue with out even contacting me because I charged him .40 cents to much. I would have happly sent him the .40 cents if he had brought it to my attention but he didn't. Another time got several very nasty emails because I charged .10 cents to much! I taped a dime to a post card and sent it to him and he calmed down. I had a crazy friend that sometimes put right in his description that he is charging an extra fee on top of his postage because he doesn't think the tool will sell for enough and he wants to make the difference up in added postage!....He never had any complaints either...go figure, eh?.....Todd ---- Start of Message 130326 (thread 50461) ---- From: Mark Marsay Date: 2004-03-09 00:21:36 Subject: RE: Shipping Costs Hmmm. My previous reply to this got bounced from the list as I was using my missus' address. To paraphrase a small essay: with Ebay, there is the option to contact the vendor before bidding and ask for the shipping costs. No one forces a person to bid if they find the costs excessive! I know that "paying actual shipping costs" costs me money rather than the buyer, and on a high volume, low unit profit line like old tools it adds up rather quickly! Regards, Mark Marsay (who has had a huge number of complaints about shipping costs - its not my fault if the buyer lives in the wrong country!!) Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. > >Subject: RE: [oldtools] Shipping Costs From: "Sanford Moss" > Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 17:02:43 -0500 To: "oldtools" > > >Karl asks; > >>The items says, "Buyer pays all shipping costs". The item will fit in >>a box 34 inches, by 10 inches by 10 inches. It weighs more more than >>10 pounds. Would you pay $29.50 from a northern east coast city to >>central Florida? No insurance! > >Karl & all, > >I ship many packages each week, so maybe this qualifies for a comment >or two. Your package, at 10 lbs, would ship from my house (not in a >city, but "northern east coast") for about $14.00 priority mail, usps. >That's what I'd charge you. > >BUT: In addition to postage, "shipping costs" can reasonably include >the price of the packaging materials, plus the labor costs associated >with packing and addressing, and the travel costs to the post office >(or pick-up charges). > >If you've priced shipping boxes, bubble wrap, "peanuts", and shipping >labels lately, you know that these materials can cost several dollars >for a package of the cited size. Properly set up, it might take me, >say, 15 minutes to properly pack and label such an item (that's 1/4 of >an hour of labor). Even at minimum wage, you are talking a couple of >dollars. My trip to and from the post office requires 10 miles of >driving. That's another 3 bucks or so, given the federal tax deduction >for milage. > >So add it all up, and I think $29.50 may not be such an unreasonable >figure for "all shipping costs." Methinks that galoots who pay just >"exact postage" for shipping costs are getting a deal. But I don't >think your eBay dealer is working to make a profit on shipping. > >Best regards, Sandy > >_________________________________________________________________ >Frustrated with dial-up? Lightning-fast Internet access for as low as >$29.95/month. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/ > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130327 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Brian McInturff" Date: 2004-03-08 19:59:44 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs I sell occasionally on ebay and I charge shipping based on the item and packing. I sold a gerstner once, took me 3 hours to wrap, box, pack, box again in larger box and stand in line at UPS. I charged the buyer 30 dollars. Actual charges wer 27.50. Of course the buyer got mad and said he felt he shouldn't have to pay the extra 2.50. He said I was the one wanting to get rid of it. I told him, true, but he was the one wanting it. He paid and left a good feedback but he was still disgruntled. Glad I don't depend on this for a living. Oh he did email me later and said he was suprised at such a nice thorough packing I did on the chest. I typically will round up to the nearest amount. Less than 10.00 on shipping gets rounded to the next dollar. Over 25 then to the next 2.50 increment. But some people complain about having to pay for insurance or delivery confirmation. If the person pays by paypal delivery confirmation is mandatory. Check paypal policy and you'll understand. Brian McInturff philatelist@e... > [Original Message] > From: todd Hughes > To: oldtools > Date: 3/8/2004 7:24:56 PM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shipping Costs > > I sell a good many tools on the ebay and I charge just what it cost's me to > ship.Since I do this I can not if the item weighs over a pound put in the > items description what the shipping charges will be.I certainly don't mind > if a serious bidder emails me and ask what it will be to ship to their > address and I look it up and tell them. Of course I get many emails like > this..." I don't know what you are trying to pull but I see you have not > including what the shipping costs are for the plane, I will not bid until I > know how much you will be charging to ship it to me"..... I write back > explaining to them I charge the actual shipping cost and never any handling > and that is why I don't include it in the auction because I don't know where > I will be sending it till after the auction and the further they are from > me the more it will cost to ship.. Even though I have placed my forehead on > my monitor screen over their email I have not been able to use my psychic > abilities to come up where exactly they are and where I would be shipping > the plane so how about they give me a little hint and I will give them then > a price because other wise I don't know if they live in the next state over, > California, Lower Slobovia or that new Slow Head colony on the far side of > the Moon. > Even though I try to charge the actual shipping sometimes I can be > slightly off, just as likely to not charge enough as to much. Had one guy > once leave me a negative, out of the blue with out even contacting me > because I charged him .40 cents to much. I would have happly sent him the > .40 cents if he had brought it to my attention but he didn't. Another time > got several very nasty emails because I charged .10 cents to much! I taped a > dime to a post card and sent it to him and he calmed down. I had a crazy > friend that sometimes put right in his description that he is charging an > extra fee on top of his postage because he doesn't think the tool will sell > for enough and he wants to make the difference up in added postage!....He > never had any complaints either...go figure, eh?.....Todd > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130329 (thread 50461) ---- From: Paul Honore Date: 2004-03-08 20:17:23 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs At 03:10 PM 3/8/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Galoots, > The items says, "Buyer pays all shipping costs". The item will fit in a >box 34 inches, by 10 inches by 10 inches. It weighs more more than 10 >pounds. Would you pay $29.50 from a northern east coast city to central >Florida? No insurance! > Anyone know of a complaint department on eBay for reporting sellers who >are profiting on shipping? > That's a tough one. Sounds a little high but if he's shipping through one of those services like Mailboxes USA (which I think is owned by UPS now), that's probably not too far off, particularly if they're doing the packing. I have a local store I can ship UPS through; they just add $4 to their daily pickup rate. I've never figured why UPS charges more if you bring a parcel to one of their real service counters than if you have daily pickup. I've ship a lot of packages and FedExGround is definitely the cheapest for anything 3 lbs and over going more than a couple of hundred miles (and insurance up to $100 is included) Parcel Post is generally cheaper for short distances and Media Mail is the best of all if you're doing books. Paul Honore Hebron CT (another 2" of snow today) ---- Start of Message 130330 (thread 50461) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-08 20:24:51 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs > pay for insurance or delivery confirmation. If the person pays by > paypal delivery confirmation is mandatory. Check paypal policy > and you'll understand. Virtually everything I buy via eBay is paid for with PayPal. Almost none of it comes to me requiring delivery confirmation. You may be right that PayPal "requires" this but they don't require it very much :-) In my view, the biggest problem with shipping and eBay is the inconsistency. If you buy enough stuff you're going to bump into people who are just too stupid to read USPS rates, too stupid to understand that the rates to Germany are different than the rates to Canada, and too stupid to understand that people are going to get upset if they're told that it's going to cost 3 times what it should to send something. The result is a leary customer base, expecting to be taken to the cleaners by shipping. Truth is, while I've had a couple situations where I've had to debate things like whether I should have to pay $22USD to send a paperback book to Canada, 99.9% of the transactions I'd had with people (as seller or buyer) have gone smooth as silk. I just try to keep my eye on the 'averages' and they look pretty good. Just received a beautiful wooden jointer today. Even nicer than I thought it would be from the photos. Paid via Pay Pal. Mailed via normal post. The guy should have charged me a couple bucks for all the bubble wrap he put around it. He didn't. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130331 (thread 50461) ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-03-08 20:49:37 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs Sandy Said: > > BUT: In addition to postage, "shipping costs" can reasonably include the > price of the packaging materials, plus the labor costs associated with > packing and addressing, and the travel costs to the post office (or pick-up > charges). > > If you've priced shipping boxes, bubble wrap, "peanuts", and shipping labels > lately, you know that these materials can cost several dollars for a package > of the cited size. Properly set up, it might take me, say, 15 minutes to > properly pack and label such an item (that's 1/4 of an hour of labor). Even > at minimum wage, you are talking a couple of dollars. My trip to and from > the post office requires 10 miles of driving. That's another 3 bucks or so, > given the federal tax deduction for milage. > > So add it all up, and I think $29.50 may not be such an unreasonable figure > for "all shipping costs." I certainly agree with Sandy that these are real costs. I also sell tools both on ebay and directly. There are real costs to shipping and packing. To me, the issue is what is assumed to be part of "the cost of doing business", and what is the customer told about any additional costs. Anybody who buys and sells tools runs into additional costs beyond what they pay for the tool. There are costs of traveling to find and buy tools, time to research tools, time to travel to places to sell those tools, time to list them on ebay, or otherwise market those tools, pack and ship the tools,.... And more! Those are all real costs of doing business, and if the seller can't cover those costs (by the selling price being greater than the the purchase price), it is not rocket science to figure out that the seller looses money and they will go out of business fairly soon. If that happens, the seller does not get a fair return on their effort or their cash investment, and buyers loose out by having fewer items come to market. Shipping costs are part of the general category of "costs of doing business". Certainly the seller needs to cover these costs, and the costs that Sandy lists are by no means unreasonable. In my mind, the issue is, does the buyer have a reasonable idea of what the costs are (beyond any ebay bid price) in advance. One could easily and reasonably assume that shipping material, time, etc were part of a general "cost of doing business", and would be covered by the difference between the selling price and the price paid by the dealer. To me, the critical issue is does the buyer know _in advance_ what those extra costs (beyond the actual shipping price paid) will be. If the bidder knows, then it would be hard to imagine why they would have a complaint. On the other hand, if all of a sudden there is double or triple the actual shipping cost, I personally can't blame the buyer for being upset. I think this is even more true when the charges are listed only as "shipping" costs instead of "shipping and handling" costs. At least adding "handling" costs can alert the buyer to ask about all shipping and handling charges. As our economist friends say, "caveat emptor": buyer beware. However, it also seems reasonable for any seller to give a fair and accurate description of all shipping/handling costs _before_ the potential buyer bids. All of the good dealers I know of make their shipping and handling costs known to the buyer in advance. Then the buyer at least knows what their total costs will be and they can decide whether or not to buy the item. I don't think that it is very difficult for the seller to let those costs be known in advance. Just one man's opinion. Chris Waiting for the snow to start falling in West Lafayette, IN ---- Start of Message 130332 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Brian McInturff" Date: 2004-03-08 21:10:53 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs You may be right that PayPal "requires" this but they don't require it very much :-) Unfortunately there are some people starting to cash in on this. Saying they never received the item and getting their funds back from Paypal. For .35 and .55 it's well worth the insurance. If an item brings more than I think it typically should then I typically will eat the majority of shipping. As said before it all works out in the wash. Brian McInturff philatelist@e... ---- Start of Message 130333 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Sanford Moss" Date: 2004-03-08 21:19:18 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs Chris Berger wrote (and I can't resist the temptation to elaborate): > >Anybody who buys and sells tools runs into additional costs beyond what >they >pay for the tool. There are costs of traveling to find and buy tools, time >to research tools, time to travel to places to sell those tools, time to >list them on ebay, or otherwise market those tools, pack and ship the >tools,.... And more! Those are all real costs of doing business, and if the >seller can't cover those costs (by the selling price being greater than the >the purchase price), it is not rocket science to figure out that the seller >looses money and they will go out of business fairly soon. If that happens, >the seller does not get a fair return on their effort or their cash >investment, and buyers loose out by having fewer items come to market. And don't forget the cleaning. Not the polishing and burnishing that Karl points out, but just the removal of surface grundge. The big boys can get away with, "just needs a quick cleaning", but that is a caveat to reduce the labor input that honestly should be included. My second beef as a cost of doing business is PayPal. That organization (now part of eBay) baited the public with the idea that it was "free". Their profit was to be had from interest gained on their revolving bank deposits. Well that changed (classic bait and switch) and now the seller is tagged with about a 3% fee on all transactions. The seller is further barred from passing that charge onto the buyer. So, while this doesn't affect the large profit margins guys, 3% to me is substantial. So no PayPal logos on my site or auctions. I accept it as a curtesy to customers, but I'd much rather be paid by check or money order. It's just another nick in the "cost of doing business" that has the effect of increasing the cost of old tools. Sandy (who is snippy tonight, dealing with a virus infection on SWMBO's computer) _________________________________________________________________ Fast. Reliable. Get MSN 9 Dial-up - 3 months for the price of 1! (Limited-time Offer) http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ ---- Start of Message 130335 (thread 50461) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-08 21:38:40 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs > My second beef as a cost of doing business is PayPal. That I rarely do business online that isn't PayPal and it's worth it to me for buyers to use it as the money comes to me right away and I can close out the transaction immediately rather than having stuff sitting around with the expectation that a check will come...some day. > (classic bait and switch) and now the seller is tagged with about > a 3% fee on all transactions. The seller is further barred from > passing that charge onto the buyer. Just as with a credit card. > So no PayPal logos on my site or auctions. I accept it as a > curtesy to customers, but I'd much rather be paid by check or I will rarely even look at items that dont sport a PayPal logo anymore. The check/money_order thing is just too time consuming (whether I'm the seller or the buyer) and it's too expensive for me as a buyer. > money order. It's just another nick in the "cost of doing > business" that has the effect of increasing the cost of old > tools. The reason for a minimum bid is to set a price you will accept. If that doesn't cover your costs, you shouldn't be selling the item. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130336 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Brian McInturff" Date: 2004-03-08 21:43:12 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs Larry, On overseas items it's best not to draw attention. Besides, delivery confirmation only guarantees it to customs at that point anyway. Never had problems to Canada anyway. Europe I won't ship to, items have either been stolen or undesirable buyers, either way I lost. Brian McInturff philatelist@e... > [Original Message] > From: Larry Marshall > To: > Date: 3/8/2004 9:29:47 PM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shipping Costs > > > > Unfortunately there are some people starting to cash in on this. > > It's sad that honesty has become such a rare trait :-( > > > Saying they never received the item and getting their funds back > > from Paypal. For .35 and .55 it's well worth the insurance. If an > > item brings more than I think it typically should then I > > True, if you're going US to US. But consider this. If you were to > ship something to me in Canada, that little confirmation card would > cost me far more in all likelyhood. The reason is sort of goofy. > Here's how it plays out: > > 1) mail without card....for most stuff the package would go from > your door to my door without being processed through customs. Now, > technically, everything should go through customs. In practice, > most of the USPS stuff that comes to me doesn't. > > 2) mail with card....without a doubt the package would go through > customs as this seems to be the way in which USPS and Canada Post > move the signature back and forth. The result is that I pay 15% > taxes on whatever value you put on the box and then I get to pay > another $5 for the privilege of the Canadian government charging me > those taxes. > > Certainly not your problem, and I completely understand why people > want delivery confirmation. But it is a bit more costly for me > than half a buck :-) > > -- > Cheers --- Larry Marshall > Quebec City, QC > http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130339 (thread 50461) ---- From: "William West" Date: 2004-03-09 02:50:29 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs Gotta agree with Sandy, here, there is much more labor involved in selling tools than just about anything on e*ay. I like to think of a plane, for example, that I find "In the wild" as much akin to that chunk of granite with the sculpture inside. I spend much time bringing these planes back to respectable, not overcleaned condition and I love doing it. This is how I relax from a stressful day at work. And as for those Paypal charges... Recently got a payment of $7000 from some guy and the charge was $210... OW! THAT was a bite! But I honestly think that accepting paypal brings more bids. IMHO... Wm. West ---- Start of Message 130341 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Brian McInturff" Date: 2004-03-08 22:27:06 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs Remember, never take anything for granted. Most sellers are willing to quote a shipping price if they know your address. Or they have a set price. Small light weight items are either 3.85 or 5.75 from me since I use Priority mail. Sometimes buyers want to argue over that and say ship it using another way, I tell them sure, just send me a box and I will. Priority saves me from wasting time getting boxes. When I buy, I usually can come pretty close to what I think shipping will be, usually I've figured high. Brian McInturff philatelist@e... > [Original Message] > From: Larry Marshall > To: oldtools > Date: 3/8/2004 10:16:58 PM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shipping Costs > > > > My second beef as a cost of doing business is PayPal. That > > I rarely do business online that isn't PayPal and it's worth it to > me for buyers to use it as the money comes to me right away and I > can close out the transaction immediately rather than having stuff > sitting around with the expectation that a check will come...some > day. > > > (classic bait and switch) and now the seller is tagged with about > > a 3% fee on all transactions. The seller is further barred from > > passing that charge onto the buyer. > > Just as with a credit card. > > > So no PayPal logos on my site or auctions. I accept it as a > > curtesy to customers, but I'd much rather be paid by check or > > I will rarely even look at items that dont sport a PayPal logo > anymore. The check/money_order thing is just too time consuming > (whether I'm the seller or the buyer) and it's too expensive for me > as a buyer. > > > money order. It's just another nick in the "cost of doing > > business" that has the effect of increasing the cost of old > > tools. > > The reason for a minimum bid is to set a price you will accept. If > that doesn't cover your costs, you shouldn't be selling the item. > > -- > Cheers --- Larry Marshall > Quebec City, QC > http://www.woodnbits.com > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130342 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-03-08 19:35:19 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs On 8 Mar 2004 at 22:27, Brian McInturff wrote: > Remember, never take anything for granted. Most sellers are willing to > quote a shipping price if they know your address. Or they have a set price. Many of us now use the built-in shipping calculator (free) wherein you specify shipping method and your postal code. The buyer can then figure out the exact shipping charges. This feature also allows you to put in the additional charges you wish to impose for packaging materials, gasoline to get to the post office, etc. The user does not get to see the breakdown, just the total. But that way they know up front what they will be paying, at least domestically. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 130392 (thread 50461) ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-03-09 15:06:07 Subject: Re: Shipping Costs Well stated Sandy. As someone who has been shipping via post, UPS and truck for nearly 16 years I can surely agree with you. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ++++ End of thread 50461 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50462 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130309 (thread 50462) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 2004-03-08 15:15:23 Subject: Shiny Does Pay! Galoots, Look at this one: < http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3278330975&category=13874 > Look close. Who thinks that is the factory finish on the sides? It is positively "brilliant'! Almost as shiny as that extra $77 it brought over more patinated versions! Maybe if more effort had been put into the iron it could have topped $200? *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * *********************************************** ++++ End of thread 50462 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50463 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130321 (thread 50463) ---- From: David W Tardiff Date: 2004-03-08 18:29:57 Subject: WTB: Leatherworking tools Recently my young GIT has become interested in working leather....you know, "tooling" it with stamps and such, and sewing or lacing it into useful forms. He came up with this new hobby by acquiring an alphabet stamping set at a local craft store, but except for some pitiful bags of leather scraps and a few kits that all suggest tooling but don't supply the tools, there are no other items sold there. Pitiful, really...a galoot in need of tools and no source! So here's a query to the assorted dealers or other scroungers. Anyone got any old (not old enough to be really valuable) leather tools on hand and want to unload them? Assorted stamps might be nice, especially ones used to form larger patterns by multiples. Right now he can't do much other than stamp names. I thought I'd see what's out there before I start making my own... Any relevant information and other source hints would be welcome as well. Who can turn down a request for help in a new addiction? Regards, Dave T (and young Peter) ++++ End of thread 50463 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50464 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130323 (thread 50464) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-08 18:00:52 Subject: OT -- Sharpening -- What is it? No picture on this one. These recent interesting sharpening conversations reminded me I have one sharpening item I have no clue what its real use is or why it is made with the material it is made with. It is the oddest thing I have ever seen for a "stone" or a "hone". It's about a half an inch wide, half inch thick and about four inches long. It appears to a cork/grit mix. I'm not sure what the grit is. It might be diamond. On the back side it has some kind of metal holding thing that appears to be maybe glued on. It flanges out a bit on each side and then has two pencil sized holes evenly space at the point where 1/3 and 2/3 would be along its length. Probably used to hold it in something or on something, I imagine. The next part I have no idea if it is relevant or not. I found it in a light sliding box full of my dad's hand tied fishing flys. I think he may have gotten them back when usa occupied Japan in WW II. Or maybe I'm just making too much out of the fact it all came out of his old army footlocker that has sat untouched for decades. So I wonder if it meant for sharpening hooks or maybe a filet knife? Why in the world would anyone use cork in this? ---- Start of Message 130364 (thread 50464) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-09 14:07:17 Subject: re: OT -- Sharpening -- What is it? The box of fishing flies is probably the big clue. A hook sharpener, maybe. You spend all that time tediously lashing pieces of feather or whatever to that little bitty hook and you sure don't wanna throw it away when the hook gets dull or rusty. Just my guess. ++++ End of thread 50464 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50465 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130334 (thread 50465) ---- From: Paul Honore Date: 2004-03-08 21:32:39 Subject: Re: Paypal Charges was Shipping Costs At 09:19 PM 3/8/2004 -0500, Sandy wrote: >My second beef as a cost of doing business is PayPal. That organization >(now part of eBay) baited the public with the idea that it was "free". >Their profit was to be had from interest gained on their revolving bank >deposits. Well that changed (classic bait and switch) and now the seller is >tagged with about a 3% fee on all transactions. The seller is further >barred from passing that charge onto the buyer. So, while this doesn't >affect the large profit margins guys, 3% to me is substantial. So no PayPal >logos on my site or auctions. I accept it as a curtesy to customers, but >I'd much rather be paid by check or money order. It's just another nick in >the "cost of doing business" that has the effect of increasing the cost of >old tools. > There is an option where there there is no charge to the seller (recipient of the funds) as long as all payments are coming from a bank account or a balance. While some would say this defeats the purpose of PP because no credit cards can be used, I've not had many complaints from buyers about it. Paul Honore Hebron CT ---- Start of Message 130349 (thread 50465) ---- From: "Frank Filippone" Date: 2004-03-08 22:28:41 Subject: RE: Paypal Charges was Shipping Costs Paypal figured this one out.... They limit the "free" receipt of money ( no matter the source) to $1000 per month..... So figure it costs 5% to list and sell your item, then 3% more to collect, and the option for a personal check is really pretty attractive for us non-pros. Frank Filippone red735i@e... There is an option where there there is no charge to the seller (recipient of the funds) as long as all payments are coming from a bank account or a balance. ++++ End of thread 50465 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50466 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130337 (thread 50466) ---- From: Mark Marsay Date: 2004-03-09 02:48:00 Subject: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs Just a quick query, as a lot of sellers seem to be responding today. On Ebay, do you find a reserve auction or a minimum starting bid to be the most acceptable to buyers? I still haven't decided either way, though at the moment I lean towards minimum bid, simply to prevent myself getting stuck with the reserve fee if the item doesn't sell. Regards, Mark Marsay, (who is up at 3 am completing a glue up and a polishing for a very impatient client) Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. > >Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shipping Costs From: "Brian McInturff" > Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 21:43:12 -0500 To: "oldtools" > > Cc: "oldtools" > > >Larry, On overseas items it's best not to draw attention. Besides, >delivery confirmation only guarantees it to customs at that point >anyway. Never had problems to Canada anyway. Europe I won't ship to, >items have either been stolen or undesirable buyers, either way I lost. >Brian McInturff philatelist@e... > > >> [Original Message] From: Larry Marshall To: >> Date: 3/8/2004 9:29:47 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] >> Shipping Costs >> >> >> > Unfortunately there are some people starting to cash in on this. >> >> It's sad that honesty has become such a rare trait :-( >> >> > Saying they never received the item and getting their funds back >> > from Paypal. For .35 and .55 it's well worth the insurance. If an >> > item brings more than I think it typically should then I >> >> True, if you're going US to US. But consider this. If you were to >> ship something to me in Canada, that little confirmation card would >> cost me far more in all likelyhood. The reason is sort of goofy. >> Here's how it plays out: >> >> 1) mail without card....for most stuff the package would go from your >> door to my door without being processed through customs. Now, >> technically, everything should go through customs. In practice, >> most of the USPS stuff that comes to me doesn't. >> >> 2) mail with card....without a doubt the package would go through >> customs as this seems to be the way in which USPS and Canada Post >> move the signature back and forth. The result is that I pay 15% >> taxes on whatever value you put on the box and then I get to pay >> another $5 for the privilege of the Canadian government charging >> me those taxes. >> >> Certainly not your problem, and I completely understand why people >> want delivery confirmation. But it is a bit more costly for me than >> half a buck :-) >> >> -- >> Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com > > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130338 (thread 50466) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-08 18:55:28 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs On Monday, March 8, 2004, at 06:48 PM, Mark Marsay wrote: > > Just a quick query, as a lot of sellers seem to be responding today. > On Ebay, do you find a reserve auction or a minimum starting bid to be > the most acceptable to buyers? I still haven't decided either way, > though at the moment I lean towards minimum bid, simply to prevent > myself getting stuck with the reserve fee if the item doesn't sell. > I'd like to know about this too. I haven't sold anything yet, but my pile has started to exceed my storage capacity, so I expect to start soon. Looking into the various fees involved it looks like you could easily wind up with costs of about 10% of the selling price. Does that seem accurate? Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130340 (thread 50466) ---- From: "William West" Date: 2004-03-09 03:00:42 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs I just start 'em all at $9.99 and let the chips fall, no reserve. Has worked for me so far, no problems. -Wm. West ---- Start of Message 130344 (thread 50466) ---- From: "Brian McInturff" Date: 2004-03-08 22:45:30 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs I think this depends on what it is. If it's an item that won't generate many bids to begin with like a Stanley 6 then starting at 9.95 may generate you 9.95 so be careful. Heavy items like tools require a little thought and the right buyer. I sold a Red Devil ta*led paint shaker. Doubled what I paid for it, the buyer just happened to be coming hear the following weeks so she was able to do a local pickup. I learned real quick, that Stanley 6 I mentioned was one of my first sales. Now I pay a little closer attention. I much rather sale my tools at the Antique store anyway. Myrtle Beach is a tool H*ll so people appreciate the finds. Brian McInturff philatelist@e... > [Original Message] > From: William West > To: oldtools > Date: 3/8/2004 10:37:26 PM > Subject: Re:[oldtools] Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs > > I just start 'em all at $9.99 and let the chips fall, no reserve. Has worked for me so far, no problems. > > -Wm. West > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130345 (thread 50466) ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-03-08 22:46:19 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs Jim Thompson wrote: > > On Monday, March 8, 2004, at 06:48 PM, Mark Marsay wrote: > >> >> Just a quick query, as a lot of sellers seem to be responding today. >> On Ebay, do you find a reserve auction or a minimum starting bid to be >> the most acceptable to buyers? I still haven't decided either way, >> though at the moment I lean towards minimum bid, simply to prevent >> myself getting stuck with the reserve fee if the item doesn't sell. >> > > I'd like to know about this too. I haven't sold anything yet, but my > pile has started to exceed my storage capacity, so I expect to start soon. > > Looking into the various fees involved it looks like you could easily > wind up with costs of about 10% of the selling price. Does that seem > accurate? I use a minimum bid. It's open and honest, and people can make their own judgements as to if they want to bid. Though I have never succumbed to using this particular trick, using a minimum bid (vs. a reserve) allows you to honestly promote your item as "NO RESERVE" for more eyeballs. not sure if that actually fools anyone, but given what advertising is out there now, who can say? ---- Start of Message 130346 (thread 50466) ---- From: Mark Marsay Date: 2004-03-09 04:05:46 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs >I much rather sale my tools at the Antique store anyway. Myrtle Beach >is a tool H*ll so people appreciate the finds. > >Brian McInturff philatelist@e... I don't sell MY tools - at least not without a lot of kicking, screaming, tears and stamping of feet, usually done by me :-) Regards, Mark Marsay, Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. > >> [Original Message] From: William West To: oldtools >> Date: 3/8/2004 10:37:26 PM Subject: Re:[oldtools] >> Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs >> >> I just start 'em all at $9.99 and let the chips fall, no reserve. Has >worked for me so far, no problems. >> >> -Wm. West Archive: >> http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >> To unsubscribe or change options, use the web >> interface: http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?- >> forum=oldtools > > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130347 (thread 50466) ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-03-08 23:22:05 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs I think one of the biggest mistakes sellers make on ebay is starting something out to high instead of starting low and using a reserve. Think if you are at a live auction and the auctioneer holds up a plane you may want.He asks for an opening bid of $100 . How many times does someone jump up and bid the $100? unless it is worth a lot more probably never instead he most likely will not get a bid till he gets down to $10 or $20 and then the bidding goes on till it can be well over the first opening bid tried. I think there are several reasons for this, no one likes to think they are paying more for something then it is worth and if they jump in at a big price early on before others bid you tend to wonder.Plus starting low let others bid that might not bid high enough to win but will tend to provide competition and get people interested and show them that others are after what they want to.If somebody else thinks that plane is worth $98 it must be worth $100 eh?.Is human nature I think to want to compete with others on what you want and just "go a bit" higher. I have seen an item that I started high not get a bid but when I relisted it at a low price with a reserve,[the same as the high opening bid] sell for a good bit more then what the original opening bid would have been. Will mention that i put reserves on about everything i sell and since I actually sell about 95% of what i list I normaly do not have to pay to much in the way of extra fees because I use reserves since you are only charged if your item doesn't sell I don't take PayPal , I think it posers to much of a chance that I will send the item to the wrong address or place , I want to be paid by somthing that comes in the mail and tells me what it is for and where to send it.Also I don't like the fact I am being charged for somthing someone else wants to use.Have sold thousands of items and only twice have i had complaints because i don't use it so I don't think it cost's me any bussiness.I consider myself pretty lazy and i sure don't have any trouble writting a check and putting it in the mail to pay my bills so don't see why anybody else would. Forigners can use the service Bidpay if they want....Todd ---- Start of Message 130348 (thread 50466) ---- From: Paul Honore Date: 2004-03-08 23:59:09 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs At 06:55 PM 3/8/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >I'd like to know about this too. I haven't sold anything yet, but my >pile has started to exceed my storage capacity, so I expect to start >soon. > >Looking into the various fees involved it looks like you could easily >wind up with costs of about 10% of the selling price. Does that seem >accurate? Depends on the item - if it appeals to a lot of people and will draw bids, you don't need a reserve and you can start at 99 cents and get "fair market value". If it doesn't have a wide appeal, and you want to guarantee a certain $ amount, put on a reserve. I think that you always get more bids when you have a low starting price ($9.99) or less. Lots of people won't bid if the starting price is $50, but if you suck them in at $9.99, they might get caught up in auction fever and go to $100. That's just human nature. On a $25 sale, you'll pay $1.50 - $ 2.50 (6% - 10%) based on starting price. On a $100 item , you'll pay $3 or so (3%) depending on where you start and if there's a reserve, etc. Paypal charges are on addon to that. "Buy it now" (at a fixed price) is also another way to go which I like. You've really got to study Ebay and watch the sales to see what's popular and what is not as well as representative prices for "commodity" items like a Stanley #4, etc. Paul Honore Hebron CT ---- Start of Message 130355 (thread 50466) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-09 07:12:48 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs > to use.Have sold thousands of items and only twice have i had > complaints because i don't use it so I don't think it cost's me > any bussiness.I consider myself pretty lazy and i sure don't have Several people have said "I've never had any complaints" regarding not taking PayPal, not taking it when the money comes from a credit card, etc. I think you have every right to sell your stuff the way you want to sell it but not getting complaints doesn't mean that you aren't losing sales because of it. I pass on items all the tiem because of these non-practices. I don't complain...I just don't bid. Same with items with reserves on them Todd, you paint a picture of someone not wanting to 'bid too much' on something with a high minimum. Have you considered the flip side? I simply don't waste time when someone sticks a minimum bid and then reserve because I see it as the seller hiding his minimum bid and I'm not going to play the game. People aren't so stupid that they can't figure out that you're trying to bait them into bidding with a low price and that the 'real' price is hidden from view. > any trouble writting a check and putting it in the mail to pay my > bills so don't see why anybody else would. Forigners can use the > service Bidpay if they want. Not this 'forigner' (sic). -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ------------------------------------------------------- -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130357 (thread 50466) ---- From: "Kaye, Danny" Date: 2004-03-09 13:28:36 Subject: RE: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs TWUgdG9vLCBpZiB0aGUgaXRlbSBpcyBub3Qgc29tZXRoaW5nIEkgUkVBTExZIHdhbnQgSSB3aWxs IG5vdCBib3RoZXIgaWYgdGhleSBkbyBub3QgdGFrZSBwYXlwYWwsIEkgZG9uJ3QgZXZlbiBtaW5k IGEgc21hbGwgcHJlbWl1bSBmb3IgdXNpbmcgaXQuDQogDQpkYW5ueQ0KDQoJLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5h bCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0gDQoJRnJvbTogTGFycnkgTWFyc2hhbGwgW21haWx0bzpsYXJyeUB3b29k bmJpdHMuY29tXSANCglTZW50OiBUdWUgMDkvMDMvMjAwNCAxMjoxMiANCglUbzogb2xkdG9vbHMg DQoJQ2M6IA0KCVN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbb2xkdG9vbHNdIE1pbmltdW0gYmlkIHZzIHJlc2VydmUs IHdhcyBTaGlwcGluZyBDb3N0cw0KCQ0KCQ0KDQoNCgk+IHRvIHVzZS5IYXZlIHNvbGQgdGhvdXNh bmRzIG9mIGl0ZW1zIGFuZCBvbmx5IHR3aWNlIGhhdmUgaSBoYWQNCgk+IGNvbXBsYWludHMgYmVj YXVzZSBpIGRvbid0IHVzZSBpdCBzbyBJIGRvbid0IHRoaW5rIGl0IGNvc3QncyBtZQ0KCT4gYW55 IGJ1c3NpbmVzcy5JIGNvbnNpZGVyIG15c2VsZiBwcmV0dHkgbGF6eSBhbmQgaSBzdXJlIGRvbid0 IGhhdmUNCgkNCglTZXZlcmFsIHBlb3BsZSBoYXZlIHNhaWQgIkkndmUgbmV2ZXIgaGFkIGFueSBj b21wbGFpbnRzIiByZWdhcmRpbmcNCglub3QgdGFraW5nIFBheVBhbCwgbm90IHRha2luZyBpdCB3 aGVuIHRoZSBtb25leSBjb21lcyBmcm9tIGEgY3JlZGl0DQoJY2FyZCwgZXRjLiAgSSB0aGluayB5 b3UgaGF2ZSBldmVyeSByaWdodCB0byBzZWxsIHlvdXIgc3R1ZmYgdGhlIHdheQ0KCXlvdSB3YW50 IHRvIHNlbGwgaXQgYnV0IG5vdCBnZXR0aW5nIGNvbXBsYWludHMgZG9lc24ndCBtZWFuIHRoYXQN Cgl5b3UgYXJlbid0IGxvc2luZyBzYWxlcyBiZWNhdXNlIG9mIGl0LiAgSSBwYXNzIG9uIGl0ZW1z IGFsbCB0aGUNCgl0aWVtIGJlY2F1c2Ugb2YgdGhlc2Ugbm9uLXByYWN0aWNlcy4NCgkNCglJIGRv bid0IGNvbXBsYWluLi4uSSBqdXN0IGRvbid0IGJpZC4gIFNhbWUgd2l0aCBpdGVtcyB3aXRoIHJl c2VydmVzDQoJb24gdGhlbSAgVG9kZCwgeW91IHBhaW50IGEgcGljdHVyZSBvZiBzb21lb25lIG5v dCB3YW50aW5nIHRvICdiaWQNCgl0b28gbXVjaCcgb24gc29tZXRoaW5nIHdpdGggYSBoaWdoIG1p bmltdW0uICBIYXZlIHlvdSBjb25zaWRlcmVkDQoJdGhlIGZsaXAgc2lkZT8gIEkgc2ltcGx5IGRv bid0IHdhc3RlIHRpbWUgd2hlbiBzb21lb25lIHN0aWNrcyBhDQoJbWluaW11bSBiaWQgYW5kIHRo ZW4gcmVzZXJ2ZSBiZWNhdXNlIEkgc2VlIGl0IGFzIHRoZSBzZWxsZXIgaGlkaW5nDQoJaGlzIG1p bmltdW0gYmlkIGFuZCBJJ20gbm90IGdvaW5nIHRvIHBsYXkgdGhlIGdhbWUuICBQZW9wbGUgYXJl bid0DQoJc28gc3R1cGlkIHRoYXQgdGhleSBjYW4ndCBmaWd1cmUgb3V0IHRoYXQgeW91J3JlIHRy eWluZyB0byBiYWl0DQoJdGhlbSBpbnRvIGJpZGRpbmcgd2l0aCBhIGxvdyBwcmljZSBhbmQgdGhh dCB0aGUgJ3JlYWwnIHByaWNlIGlzDQoJaGlkZGVuIGZyb20gdmlldy4NCgkNCgk+IGFueSB0cm91 YmxlIHdyaXR0aW5nIGEgY2hlY2sgYW5kIHB1dHRpbmcgaXQgaW4gdGhlIG1haWwgdG8gcGF5IG15 DQoJPiBiaWxscyBzbyBkb24ndCBzZWUgd2h5IGFueWJvZHkgZWxzZSB3b3VsZC4gRm9yaWduZXJz IGNhbiB1c2UgdGhlDQoJPiBzZXJ2aWNlIEJpZHBheSBpZiB0aGV5IHdhbnQuDQoJDQoJTm90IHRo aXMgJ2ZvcmlnbmVyJyAoc2ljKS4NCgkNCgktLQ0KCUNoZWVycyAtLS0gTGFycnkgTWFyc2hhbGwN CglRdWViZWMgQ2l0eSwgUUMNCglodHRwOi8vd3d3Lndvb2RuYml0cy5jb20NCgkNCgktLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQoJDQoJLS0N CglDaGVlcnMgLS0tIExhcnJ5IE1hcnNoYWxsDQoJUXVlYmVjIENpdHksIFFDDQoJaHR0cDovL3d3 dy53b29kbmJpdHMuY29tDQoJDQoJQXJjaGl2ZTogaHR0cDovL3d3dy5mcm9udGllci5pYXJjLnVh Zi5lZHUvfmNzd2luZ2xlL2FyY2hpdmUvDQoJVG8gdW5zdWJzY3JpYmUgb3IgY2hhbmdlIG9wdGlv bnMsIHVzZSB0aGUgd2ViIGludGVyZmFjZToNCgkgICAgaHR0cDovL2dhbG9vdHMubGF3LmNvcm5l bGwuZWR1OjgxL3JlYWQvP2ZvcnVtPW9sZHRvb2xzDQoJDQoNCg== ---- Start of Message 130358 (thread 50466) ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-03-09 08:39:14 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs Larry wrote.... > > with items with reserves > on them Todd, you paint a picture of someone not wanting to 'bid > too much' on something with a high minimum. Have you considered > the flip side? I simply don't waste time when someone sticks a > minimum bid and then reserve because I see it as the seller hiding > his minimum bid and I'm not going to play the game. People aren't > so stupid that they can't figure out that you're trying to bait > them into bidding with a low price and that the 'real' price is > hidden from view. > > ------------------------------------------------------- While Larry seems to disagree I don't think the "Real" price for an item at auction is the reserve price, whether if you use that price as an opening bid or as a traditional reserve but instead the "Real" price is what it brings after the auction. This "Real" price is of course not known and is "hidden from view" if you will till the last person bids. Of course sometimes since you don't know what this final "Real" price will be you will be out bid and it would have been a waste of your time.If this bothers you then auctions are probably not for you.While I don't see many people like Larry at live auctions that prefer to bid right away at the high opening bid if it is within the price they are willing to pay instead of waiting to see if it will start lower I guess it may happen some.Will point out that every live auction that I have been to,[and I have been to many!] when they are selling items with a reserve they have NEVER started the item at that reserve like Larry prefers it to be done on the ebay but instead said that it had a reserve and then started lower then it and went higher in an attempt to meet it.I never felt I was being "baited" into bidding like Larry does but instead just thought of the reserve like it was another bidder that if I went higher then I would win the item. While most live auctions will not disclose the reserve unless it has not been met,[ some will announce during bidding "reserve has been met and item will be sold"] On ebay if someone emails me I will tell them what my reserve is though I am always curious as what difference it makes ,probably takes as long to email me asking it then it would to bid so why don't they just bid as high as they are comfortable with and they will get it or not ?........Todd , who is VERY satisfied with his Ebay selling results ---- Start of Message 130359 (thread 50466) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-09 05:43:49 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs On Tuesday, March 9, 2004, at 05:28 AM, Kaye, Danny wrote: > > Me too, if the item is not something I REALLY want I will not bother > if they do not take paypal, I don't even mind a small premium for > using it. > For the purpose of information to sellers, I will join this chorus. I don't want to wait 10 days for my personal check to clear, and I do not want to have to drive to the bank and stand in line to get a cashier's check, or to the post office and stand in an even longer line for a money order. Doing either of these 2 things will cost me a little money and considerable time. I did that for a couple of parts for a classic car that I thought I would never see for sale again, but I won't do it for most items. If the seller won't accept PayPal, then I won't bid. I don't complain to the seller about it either. One more thing while I am at it: I pay by PayPal for items I win within a few hours of the closing of the item. It irritates the devil out of me to wait for 2 or 3 weeks for the item to be delivered, and this does happen. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130361 (thread 50466) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-09 08:57:20 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs > then it and went higher in an attempt to meet it.I never felt I > was being "baited" into bidding like Larry does but instead just > thought of the reserve like it was another bidder that if I went Todd, this is not worthy of argument in my view but here you're putting words in my mouth. I never feel baited either as I simply don't do it. But it was YOUR description/logic that suggests baiting. You suggest that reserve bids are great because you can post a low minimum to "get" people to bid. Now, with a reserve, that means, by definition, that those people are bidding below an acceptable bid on the item. They just don't know it until after they place the bid. I believe I will bow out of this thread. I believe people should do what they want to do when either buying or selling things. I've tried to state what I do and why. I'm done. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130366 (thread 50466) ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-03-09 06:25:55 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs Jim Thompson wrote: > > On Tuesday, March 9, 2004, at 05:28 AM, Kaye, Danny wrote: > >> >> Me too, if the item is not something I REALLY want I will not bother >> if they do not take paypal, I don't even mind a small premium for >> using it. >> > > For the purpose of information to sellers, I will join this chorus. I > don't want to wait 10 days for my personal check to clear, and I do not > want to have to drive to the bank and stand in line to get a cashier's > check, or to the post office and stand in an even longer line for a > money order. Doing either of these 2 things will cost me a little money > and considerable time. As a buyer I use personal checks when available, mainly because the time isn't that important to me. The tool is older than I am (often by a factor of 2!), and I've waited 38 years for it, 10 more days isn't going to hurt. =) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130367 (thread 50466) ---- From: philatelist Date: 2004-03-09 09:41:30 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs It is funny to some degree. Buyers always want the cheapest they can get it for. The seller always wants the most out of it. One tidbit of info. The selling price has nothing to do with handling fees, packing, or shipping. Buyers always forget this and think it should be rolled into the price that they get the item for. And only pay actual shipping charges. Buyers also want to take for granted and think everything should be laid out in the listing. Well, look at it like buying a house. There are always other additional cost that you have to ask about. Buyers should always ask. It's not the sellers responsibility as the seller has no idea what the buyer may want to know. I buy more than I sell so I think I have a little knowledge on this. -----Original Message----- From: todd Hughes Sent: Mar 9, 2004 8:39 AM To: oldtools Subject: Re: [oldtools] Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs Larry wrote.... > > with items with reserves on them Todd, you paint a picture of someone > not wanting to 'bid too much' on something with a high minimum. Have > you considered the flip side? I simply don't waste time when someone > sticks a minimum bid and then reserve because I see it as the seller > hiding his minimum bid and I'm not going to play the game. People > aren't so stupid that they can't figure out that you're trying to bait > them into bidding with a low price and that the 'real' price is hidden > from view. > > ------------------------------------------------------- While Larry seems to disagree I don't think the "Real" price for an item at auction is the reserve price, whether if you use that price as an opening bid or as a traditional reserve but instead the "Real" price is what it brings after the auction. This "Real" price is of course not known and is "hidden from view" if you will till the last person bids. Of course sometimes since you don't know what this final "Real" price will be you will be out bid and it would have been a waste of your time.If this bothers you then auctions are probably not for you.While I don't see many people like Larry at live auctions that prefer to bid right away at the high opening bid if it is within the price they are willing to pay instead of waiting to see if it will start lower I guess it may happen some.Will point out that every live auction that I have been to,[and I have been to many!] when they are selling items with a reserve they have NEVER started the item at that reserve like Larry prefers it to be done on the ebay but instead said that it had a reserve and then started lower then it and went higher in an attempt to meet it.I never felt I was being "baited" into bidding like Larry does but instead just thought of the reserve like it was another bidder that if I went higher then I would win the item. While most live auctions will not disclose the reserve unless it has not been met,[ some will announce during bidding "reserve has been met and item will be sold"] On ebay if someone emails me I will tell them what my reserve is though I am always curious as what difference it makes ,probably takes as long to email me asking it then it would to bid so why don't they just bid as high as they are comfortable with and they will get it or not ?........Todd , who is VERY satisfied with his Ebay selling results ---- Start of Message 130368 (thread 50466) ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-03-09 09:51:11 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs > Jim Thompson wrote: > >. I > > don't want to wait 10 days for my personal check to clear, and I do > not > > want to have to drive to the bank and stand in line to get a > cashier's > > check, or to the post office and stand in an even longer line for a > > > money order. Doing either of these 2 things will cost me a little > money > > and considerable time. > > Michael wrote..." .....As a buyer I use personal checks when available, mainly because the > time isn't that important to me. The tool is older than I am (often > by a factor of 2!), and I've waited 38 years for it, 10 more days > isn't going to hurt. =)..." > __________________________________ Guess I am a trusting S.O.B but I hardly ever wait till a check clears to ship an item out that I sold. A personal check payment gets shipped just as fast,[normally with in 3 days of getting it] as a Money Order payment. Maybe I have been lucky but in many,[and I mean many!] thousands of transactions have never had a bad check. One bounced but was a mistake and the guy made good right away. I actually prefer a person pays with a check because it is easier to deal with if something goes wrong like it gets lost in the mail or the bidder pays me twice.....Todd ---- Start of Message 130372 (thread 50466) ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-03-09 09:05:42 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs Hi Ya'll, OK, Todd and I are in the same camp here... I'm even more reckless. I buy with U.S. greenback dollars 90% of the time. I haven't had a dollar lost in the mail yet or been cheated by a seller. Many sellers have even rounded the amount down to avoid my having to put change in the envelope. When sending $ internationally... I've sent $100 bills in envelopes at a pace of 1/per just to cut the the risk a bit. International sellers like US cash... the International money orders are expensive and are a huge hassle/. I did join the OZ version of PayPal, but I only used it once. As a seller, I look at feedback and if it's good, I deposit the check and send the item.... never been burned that way either. The ONLY time I've ever been burned was a $30 tool I sent to Bozeman MT to a certain C.Z. who kept it and didn't send the $. That was an Old Tools Terms item I sold in the old FMM days when there was a feeding frenzy the first of every month. Tool buyers / sellers are just a helluva good bunch of guys & gals IMHO ..... best gang on the planet. Not only honest, but forthcoming with info and help of all kinds. BTW, I HATE reserves on items.... I've done it myself, but .... nuf said Cheers Tom (in SUNNY Minnesnowta for a change) > Guess I am a trusting S.O.B but I hardly ever wait till a check > clears > to ship an item out that I sold. A personal check payment gets shipped > just > as fast,[normally with in 3 days of getting it] as a Money Order > payment. > Maybe I have been lucky but in many,[and I mean many!] thousands of > transactions have never had a bad check. One bounced but was a mistake > and > the guy made good right away. I actually prefer a person pays with a > check > because it is easier to deal with if something goes wrong like it gets > lost > in the mail or the bidder pays me twice.....Todd > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 130385 (thread 50466) ---- From: "Foster, Jim" Date: 2004-03-09 10:57:28 Subject: RE: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs Well, I gotta jump in here. I buy a few things off of the 'Bay. B^) While PayPal is fine, I don't like to use it simply because I don't like to run up credit card bills. If I'm in a hurry or that's all they take then I'll use it, but otherwise I'm a money order man. I'm a throwback who get's my paycheck sent to the house, and I drive by the bank and deposit it myself. I "skim" off my "allowance" in cash back, and that's what I use for 'Bay Buying. A money order at WalMart is $.99, and a lot of convienience stores sell 'em too for the same amount. Our credit union has an office in my building that's open three days a week, and that's what I usually use, but the other options are available and easy. Yeah, I have to keep some envelopes and stamps around and fill them out, = but I deal with it. And perhaps I'm lucky about what I drive by when going = to work, but I really don't see a big problem with it. It's not uncommon = for me to win an item, get the MO and drop it in the mail, and have the item arrive a week later. Not much different than the turnover from PayPal really. Matter of fact, I bought two similar items about a month ago. Payed for one with PayPal because I needed to have one of these within two weeks and figured I'd just wait on the other and used a MO for it. Of course the MO payed one came quicker. B^) Anyway, that's just=20 my experiences and technique. =20 Jim Foster Minnesota (who really needs to sit down and sell some stuff too ... B^)) >=20 > For the purpose of information to sellers, I will join this=20 > chorus. I=20 > don't want to wait 10 days for my personal check to clear,=20 > and I do not=20 > want to have to drive to the bank and stand in line to get a=20 > cashier's=20 > check, or to the post office and stand in an even longer line for a=20 > money order. Doing either of these 2 things will cost me a=20 > little money=20 > and considerable time. >=20 ---- Start of Message 130386 (thread 50466) ---- From: Matthew and Cathy Groves Date: 2004-03-09 11:04:30 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs Post office has em for a lot less. I'm one block away and not a lazy person, but I would 100 out of 100 times prefer a person who accepted paypal. It comes out of my checking account, and I can pay at 3am and be done with it. Matthew Groves > > A money order at WalMart is $.99 ---- Start of Message 130393 (thread 50466) ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-03-09 15:13:24 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs I try to do neither. Reserves are the death of an auction. (I am having this same discussion with a local auction house). Most auction goers detest reserves and a high minimum bid turns a lot of people away. I have put up items with a high minimum bid and had no bidders at the close. I then relist with a $1.00 starting bid and the item gets more than what I originally wanted. An auction is a "crap shoot". Put up your items and let them go where they will. If you can't do that then sell them. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Marsay" To: "oldtools" Cc: Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:48 PM Subject: [oldtools] Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs > Just a quick query, as a lot of sellers seem to be responding today. > On Ebay, do you find a reserve auction or a minimum starting bid to be the most acceptable to buyers? I still haven't decided either way, though at the moment I lean towards minimum bid, simply to prevent myself getting stuck with the reserve fee if the item doesn't sell. > > Regards, > Mark Marsay, (who is up at 3 am completing a glue up and a polishing for a very impatient client) > > Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. > Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. > > > > >Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shipping Costs > > From: "Brian McInturff" > > Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 21:43:12 -0500 > > To: "oldtools" > > Cc: "oldtools" > > > > > >Larry, > >On overseas items it's best not to draw attention. Besides, delivery > >confirmation only guarantees it to customs at that point anyway. Never had > >problems to Canada anyway. Europe I won't ship to, items have either been > >stolen or undesirable buyers, either way I lost. > >Brian McInturff > >philatelist@e... > > > > > >> [Original Message] > >> From: Larry Marshall > >> To: > >> Date: 3/8/2004 9:29:47 PM > >> Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shipping Costs > >> > >> > >> > Unfortunately there are some people starting to cash in on this. > >> > >> It's sad that honesty has become such a rare trait :-( > >> > >> > Saying they never received the item and getting their funds back > >> > from Paypal. For .35 and .55 it's well worth the insurance. If an > >> > item brings more than I think it typically should then I > >> > >> True, if you're going US to US. But consider this. If you were to > >> ship something to me in Canada, that little confirmation card would > >> cost me far more in all likelyhood. The reason is sort of goofy. > >> Here's how it plays out: > >> > >> 1) mail without card....for most stuff the package would go from > >> your door to my door without being processed through customs. Now, > >> technically, everything should go through customs. In practice, > >> most of the USPS stuff that comes to me doesn't. > >> > >> 2) mail with card....without a doubt the package would go through > >> customs as this seems to be the way in which USPS and Canada Post > >> move the signature back and forth. The result is that I pay 15% > >> taxes on whatever value you put on the box and then I get to pay > >> another $5 for the privilege of the Canadian government charging me > >> those taxes. > >> > >> Certainly not your problem, and I completely understand why people > >> want delivery confirmation. But it is a bit more costly for me > >> than half a buck :-) > >> > >> -- > >> Cheers --- Larry Marshall > >> Quebec City, QC > >> http://www.woodnbits.com > > > > > > > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 130394 (thread 50466) ---- From: Matthew and Cathy Groves Date: 2004-03-09 14:19:41 Subject: Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs I suppose that $.04 is nothing to you?? I'm just kidding of course. I thought they were in the $.50 range, my mistake. My main point is that even if they were two bits (one quarter, I think), it wouldn't compare to the ease and zero cost (not counting internet access, computer, yada yada) convenience of my own home. Sorry about the misinformation. The USPS website now has them at .90 for money orders $500 and less, and $1.25 for over $500. Matthew Groves > > I must be going to the wrong post office. I pay $.95. > They went up from $.85 at least a year ago. > > Jim Bramel ++++ End of thread 50466 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50467 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130343 (thread 50467) ---- From: "Stephen Colebourne" Date: 2004-03-09 13:39:57 Subject: Re: paypal; was Shipping Costs As an overseas buyer I would have to agree with Larry. Paypal for me was a godsend and I will always give preference to sellers who use this service, surely the convenience has got to be worth the 3%. Prior to paypals arrival on the scene paying for items could be a real hassle for me (go to bank/post-office ,obtain money order/cheque,pay ridiculous bank/postoffice charges and receive the worst exchange rate) and cause serious delays in getting the money for the seller (up to 3 weeks for the money-order/cheque to arrive at destination).Paypals charge of 3% seems a pittance to me given the alternatives -Auction commissions 10-20%(and you pay to get the item to the auction) or shop overheads. Bottom line for me is that when I see an item I am interested in I work out how much the item is worth to me then work out the anticipated cost of getting the item to me -then subtract the latter from the former to arrive at the amount I am willing to bid ,therefore by cutting my expenses paypal allows me to bid a higher price therefore potentially increasing the final price the seller receives regards Steve (sweating it out in 40c degree Queensland) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Marshall" To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 12:38 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Shipping Costs > > > My second beef as a cost of doing business is PayPal. That > > I rarely do business online that isn't PayPal and it's worth it to > me for buyers to use it as the money comes to me right away and I > can close out the transaction immediately rather than having stuff > sitting around with the expectation that a check will come...some > day. > > > (classic bait and switch) and now the seller is tagged with about > > a 3% fee on all transactions. The seller is further barred from > > passing that charge onto the buyer. > > Just as with a credit card. > > > So no PayPal logos on my site or auctions. I accept it as a > > curtesy to customers, but I'd much rather be paid by check or > > I will rarely even look at items that dont sport a PayPal logo > anymore. The check/money_order thing is just too time consuming > (whether I'm the seller or the buyer) and it's too expensive for me > as a buyer. > > > money order. It's just another nick in the "cost of doing > > business" that has the effect of increasing the cost of old > > tools. > > The reason for a minimum bid is to set a price you will accept. If > that doesn't cover your costs, you shouldn't be selling the item. > > -- > Cheers --- Larry Marshall > Quebec City, QC > http://www.woodnbits.com > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130362 (thread 50467) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-09 13:53:32 Subject: Re: paypal; was Shipping Costs I prefer to use Paypal to pay for items on ebay. But my bank will issue one "Official Check" (same as a cashier's check) per day for free, and I can walk to my bank from my office on a break and get one in a matter of minutes, so it is relatively easy and free for me to pay that way. As such, I will often search out sellers who have an item I want who do not accept Paypal because a lot of folks will not bid on items from sellers who don't accept Paypal and I often get the item cheaper. ++++ End of thread 50467 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50468 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130360 (thread 50468) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-09 13:26:36 Subject: Shipping Costs Revisited I buy a lot of old tools on ebay, and have been pretty satisfied with both the items I've gotten and the cost of shipping. I also prefer paypal to pay because it is so convenient to me. My paypal account is hooked up to my bank accounts and it keeps me from running up my credit cards any more than they already are. I have generally found shipping charges to be pretty reasonable, especially when I consider the cost of the materials used. I have shipped a few wood items that I have made and I just go to the mailing center and have them pack it in their materials and pass this cost along to the buyer. Some of these are fragile and have to be double boxed. So I know what shipping costs. The one bit of negative feedback I have gotten on e-bay as a buyer was from a fella in Oklahoma City who had a Dutch Auction running for some lathes. I'm in Central Texas, so OK City is not far, and I have a son stationed at the AF Base there (he's in the navy stationed at a landlocked Air Force base, but that's another story) and I could have had it shipped to him or he could have picked it up. The e-bay ad stated that the item was located in OK City. It also said to contact the seller about shipping charges, but the auction had only one day to run and it took about two days after it ended for the seller to even acknowledge my initial e-mail concerning total costs. Long story short, he was dropping shipping from the west coast and the cost of shipping was more than the item cost. He insisted that since he had a disclaimer to contact him for shipping costs, that his stating the item was in OK City didn't make any difference. I've heard of sellers listing items from Griz zly or Harbor Freight or other companies that offer cheap or free shipping, then calculating the freight charges from the origin to the buyer and billing the buyer for that. Of course they set a minimum or reserve of the actual price on the item so they at least break even on that. I argued that he should have had a FOB listed in the ad and refused to pay. ++++ End of thread 50468 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50469 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130365 (thread 50469) ---- From: pjm21@d... Date: 2004-03-09 09:24:50 Subject: PATINA Road Trip Good Galoots, A friend of mine and I plan to make it to PATINA this weekend. He's a recent convert to old tools and we're both looking to fatten up the shop inventory. Neither of us have been to this event before. Can someone post about the particulars regarding, admission charge, open or closed event, and if there is selling allowed outside in the parking lot? Where will the galoots be? We're planning to drive all Friday night and hope to lodge in a nearby motel. Any recommendations this late? Best Regards, Pete Mueller GPP, Michigan ---- Start of Message 130369 (thread 50469) ---- From: kjworz@c... Date: 2004-03-09 14:51:39 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip What do ya wanna know? http://www.patinatools.org is the website. The auction specifically is: http://www.patinatools.org/auction.html There are hotel recommendations on the site. But if you drive all night from Michigan you will arrive just as the tailgating starts... 4-5 AM ish. If you want to sell out of your tailgate just be sure to park across the road from the building. Might be 20+ people selling out there. There are directions and hotel info here: http://www.patinatools.org/Patina-dir.htm The doors open to the public at 9 AM for free, but there is an early bird admission at 8 that'll cost you $15. -- -Chris Schwartz, Ex-Brewer Stealth #97 Silver Spring, MD > > > > > Good Galoots, > > A friend of mine and I plan to make it to PATINA this weekend. He's a > recent convert to old tools and we're both looking to fatten up the > shop inventory. > > Neither of us have been to this event before. Can someone post about > the particulars regarding, admission charge, open or closed event, and > if there is selling allowed outside in the parking lot? Where will the > galoots be? > > We're planning to drive all Friday night and hope to lodge in a nearby > motel. Any recommendations this late? > > Best Regards, > > Pete Mueller GPP, Michigan > > > ---- Start of Message 130373 (thread 50469) ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-03-09 10:09:44 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip Pete asked > "....I plan to make it to PATINA this weekend. ... Neither of us have been to this event before. Can someone post about the > particulars regarding, admission charge, open or closed event, and if there > is selling allowed outside in the parking lot? Where will the galoots be? > > We're planning to drive all Friday night and hope to lodge in a nearby > motel. Any recommendations this late? > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are normally lots of "Tailgaters" set up in the parking lot and this is where the better good deals can be found in my experience. No cost involved with shopping or selling here.Key thing here is to get there EARLY. This year I am planning to try to make it before sun up...well I am going to try and you should too. Believe the show ,[in the building] opens at around 9:00 and cost like $5 to get in.Personally I like to pay the extra early bird fee of $15 or $20 to get in about an hour earlier to avoid the big crush and to have a better chance of finding any good deals.Has paid off for me in the past.Believe this year they are having the auction in the afternoon instead of on Sunday like in years past. A good ideal I think as I have never came back the second day for the auction.....I will be the guy wearing the Blue WW II Ladies Auxiliary Beret with a Star on top, kind of hard to miss, hope you come up and say "Hello"........Todd ---- Start of Message 130374 (thread 50469) ---- From: kjworz@c... Date: 2004-03-09 15:17:08 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip $15 to get in early at 8 (unless they changed it this year and didn't tell me, the webmaster.) FREE at 9. -- -Chris Schwartz, Ex-Brewer Stealth #97 Silver Spring, MD Believe the show ,[in the building] opens at around > 9:00 and cost like $5 to get in.Personally I like to pay the extra early > bird fee of $15 or $20 to get in about an hour earlier to avoid the big > crush and to have a better chance of finding any good deals.Has paid off > for me in the past.Believe this year they are having the auction in the > afternoon instead of on Sunday like in years past. ---- Start of Message 130378 (thread 50469) ---- From: "S. Micah Salb" Date: 2004-03-09 10:50:49 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip Actually, the PATINA sale pretty much sucks. They never really have any decent tools, and anything that is there is WAY overpriced. I remember last year, this gouging dealer showing me a Stanley #4 told me it was a rare tool worth $1,200. Sadly, there is nothing there of value to collectors OR users; it really isn't worth coming to. The tables are mostly empty and the tools in rough shape. The auction isn't much better --- just a bunch of tools that no one wants. And, to make matters worse, the weather INEVITABLY sucks at this time of year in Damascus. Wasn't it last year or the year before that the whole parking lot was basically flooded out? I STRONGLY advise you --- and everyone else --- to just stay home. -Micah Salb ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 9:24 AM Subject: [oldtools] PATINA Road Trip > > > > > Good Galoots, > > A friend of mine and I plan to make it to PATINA this weekend. He's a > recent convert to old tools and we're both looking to fatten up the shop > inventory. > > Neither of us have been to this event before. Can someone post about the > particulars regarding, admission charge, open or closed event, and if there > is selling allowed outside in the parking lot? Where will the galoots be? > > We're planning to drive all Friday night and hope to lodge in a nearby > motel. Any recommendations this late? > > Best Regards, > > Pete Mueller > GPP, Michigan > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130379 (thread 50469) ---- From: ralong Date: 2004-03-09 11:11:03 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip Hey MICAH, You have your right to say "IT sucks". One misinformed dealer and some wet weather may have put a damper on your trip to PATINA. But for those who put the time to organize the show, dealers to bring TONS of tools and those, like myself, that tailgate at 5:00am...THE SHOW IS GREAT. I clean up tailgating, go inside and by some TOP SHELF tools, drive home to Virginia with a big smile on my face, cash in wallet and tools in the trunk. Eight years of doing that....I would never dream of NOT going. Suck on that!!! Rick Long President of RATS (Richmond Antique Tool Society) 135 members, 9 years old, and growing!!! RATS forever! "S. Micah Salb" wrote: > Actually, the PATINA sale pretty much sucks. They never really have any > decent tools, and anything that is there is WAY overpriced. I remember last > year, this gouging dealer showing me a Stanley #4 told me it was a rare tool > worth $1,200. Sadly, there is nothing there of value to collectors OR > users; it really isn't worth coming to. The tables are mostly empty and the > tools in rough shape. The auction isn't much better --- just a bunch of > tools that no one wants. And, to make matters worse, the weather INEVITABLY > sucks at this time of year in Damascus. Wasn't it last year or the year > before that the whole parking lot was basically flooded out? > > I STRONGLY advise you --- and everyone else --- to just stay home. > > -Micah Salb > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "oldtools" > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 9:24 AM > Subject: [oldtools] PATINA Road Trip > > > > > > > > > > > Good Galoots, > > > > A friend of mine and I plan to make it to PATINA this weekend. He's a > > recent convert to old tools and we're both looking to fatten up the shop > > inventory. > > > > Neither of us have been to this event before. Can someone post about the > > particulars regarding, admission charge, open or closed event, and if > there > > is selling allowed outside in the parking lot? Where will the galoots be? > > > > We're planning to drive all Friday night and hope to lodge in a nearby > > motel. Any recommendations this late? > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Pete Mueller > > GPP, Michigan > > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130380 (thread 50469) ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-03-09 16:22:54 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip Now you've spoilt Shannon's attempt to buy *all * the tools at knock down prices >Hey MICAH, >You have your right to say "IT sucks". One misinformed dealer and some wet >weather may have put a damper on your trip to PATINA. >But for those who put the time to organize the show, dealers to bring TONS of >tools and those, like myself, that tailgate at 5:00am...THE SHOW IS GREAT. >I clean up tailgating, go inside and by some TOP SHELF tools, drive home to notice his final grin.. .. >>> I STRONGLY advise you --- and everyone else --- to just stay home. >>> >>> -Micah Salb >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 130383 (thread 50469) ---- From: ralong Date: 2004-03-09 11:39:42 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip Micah ... I did miss the . I didn't even know meant GRIN. The banter, back in forth, in jest, but I really thought someone was ripping a good tool event. If I blow any tool deals for you, just stop by and see me, introduce yourself, and I'll INCREASE my prices. JUST JOKING....REALLY Spittoon Shining in Virginia Rick Long Richard.Wilson@s... wrote: > Now you've spoilt Shannon's attempt to buy *all * the tools at knock > down prices > > >Hey MICAH, You have your right to say "IT sucks". One misinformed > >dealer and some > wet > >weather may have put a damper on your trip to PATINA. But for those > >who put the time to organize the show, dealers to bring > TONS of > >tools and those, like myself, that tailgate at 5:00am...THE SHOW IS > GREAT. > >I clean up tailgating, go inside and by some TOP SHELF tools, > >drive home > to > > notice his final > > grin.. .. > > >>> I STRONGLY advise you --- and everyone else --- to just stay home. > >>> > >>> -Micah Salb > >>> > >>> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------- > > For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at > www.salvesen.com. > > The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential > and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally > privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any > disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than > the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have > received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately > by return e-mail. > > Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure > that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. > However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a > result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your > own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 130398 (thread 50469) ---- From: "S. Micah Salb" Date: 2004-03-09 15:28:21 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip Ack! I REALLY was teasing! I have to confess (only because I don't want anyone to be upset with me) that I was just teasing, jokingly trying to convince everyone else to stay home. I'm sorry if I insulted! -Micah ----- Original Message ----- From: "ralong" To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [oldtools] PATINA Road Trip > Hey MICAH, > You have your right to say "IT sucks". One misinformed dealer and some wet > weather may have put a damper on your trip to PATINA. > But for those who put the time to organize the show, dealers to bring TONS of > tools and those, like myself, that tailgate at 5:00am...THE SHOW IS GREAT. > I clean up tailgating, go inside and by some TOP SHELF tools, drive home to > Virginia with a big smile on my face, cash in wallet and tools in the trunk. > Eight years of doing that....I would never dream of NOT going. Suck on that!!! > > Rick Long > President of RATS (Richmond Antique Tool Society) 135 members, 9 years old, and > growing!!! RATS forever! > > > "S. Micah Salb" wrote: > > > Actually, the PATINA sale pretty much sucks. They never really have any > > decent tools, and anything that is there is WAY overpriced. I remember last > > year, this gouging dealer showing me a Stanley #4 told me it was a rare tool > > worth $1,200. Sadly, there is nothing there of value to collectors OR > > users; it really isn't worth coming to. The tables are mostly empty and the > > tools in rough shape. The auction isn't much better --- just a bunch of > > tools that no one wants. And, to make matters worse, the weather INEVITABLY > > sucks at this time of year in Damascus. Wasn't it last year or the year > > before that the whole parking lot was basically flooded out? > > > > I STRONGLY advise you --- and everyone else --- to just stay home. > > > > -Micah Salb > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: "oldtools" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 9:24 AM > > Subject: [oldtools] PATINA Road Trip > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good Galoots, > > > > > > A friend of mine and I plan to make it to PATINA this weekend. He's a > > > recent convert to old tools and we're both looking to fatten up the shop > > > inventory. > > > > > > Neither of us have been to this event before. Can someone post about the > > > particulars regarding, admission charge, open or closed event, and if > > there > > > is selling allowed outside in the parking lot? Where will the galoots be? > > > > > > We're planning to drive all Friday night and hope to lodge in a nearby > > > motel. Any recommendations this late? > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > Pete Mueller > > > GPP, Michigan > > > > > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > > > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > > > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130399 (thread 50469) ---- From: "Jim Esten" Date: 2004-03-09 14:39:23 Subject: RE: PATINA Road Trip May have escaped a few readers, but c'mon, the at the tail of Micah's original very funny note was there in plain view...!! Cheers, Jim E #2 in Wisconsin (who normally snips off the bulk of quoted material but some folks really need to relook this thread!) -----Original Message----- From: S. Micah Salb [mailto:ssalb@l...] Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 2:28 PM To: oldtools Subject: Re: [oldtools] PATINA Road Trip Ack! I REALLY was teasing! I have to confess (only because I don't want anyone to be upset with me) that I was just teasing, jokingly trying to convince everyone else to stay home. I'm sorry if I insulted! -Micah ----- Original Message ----- From: "ralong" To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [oldtools] PATINA Road Trip > Hey MICAH, > You have your right to say "IT sucks". One misinformed dealer and some wet > weather may have put a damper on your trip to PATINA. > But for those who put the time to organize the show, dealers to bring TONS of > tools and those, like myself, that tailgate at 5:00am...THE SHOW IS GREAT. > I clean up tailgating, go inside and by some TOP SHELF tools, drive home to > Virginia with a big smile on my face, cash in wallet and tools in the trunk. > Eight years of doing that....I would never dream of NOT going. Suck on that!!! > > Rick Long > President of RATS (Richmond Antique Tool Society) 135 members, 9 years old, and > growing!!! RATS forever! > > > "S. Micah Salb" wrote: > > > Actually, the PATINA sale pretty much sucks. They never really have any > > decent tools, and anything that is there is WAY overpriced. I remember last > > year, this gouging dealer showing me a Stanley #4 told me it was a rare tool > > worth $1,200. Sadly, there is nothing there of value to collectors OR > > users; it really isn't worth coming to. The tables are mostly empty and the > > tools in rough shape. The auction isn't much better --- just a bunch of > > tools that no one wants. And, to make matters worse, the weather INEVITABLY > > sucks at this time of year in Damascus. Wasn't it last year or the year > > before that the whole parking lot was basically flooded out? > > > > I STRONGLY advise you --- and everyone else --- to just stay home. > > > > -Micah Salb > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: "oldtools" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 9:24 AM > > Subject: [oldtools] PATINA Road Trip > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good Galoots, > > > > > > A friend of mine and I plan to make it to PATINA this weekend. He's a > > > recent convert to old tools and we're both looking to fatten up the shop > > > inventory. > > > > > > Neither of us have been to this event before. Can someone post about the > > > particulars regarding, admission charge, open or closed event, and if > > there > > > is selling allowed outside in the parking lot? Where will the galoots be? > > > > > > We're planning to drive all Friday night and hope to lodge in a nearby > > > motel. Any recommendations this late? > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > Pete Mueller > > > GPP, Michigan > > > > > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > > > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > > > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130400 (thread 50469) ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 2004-03-09 16:00:12 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip At 03:28 PM 3/9/04, S. Micah Salb wrote: >Ack! > >I REALLY was teasing! That's good to hear cause I was a fixin' to be charging ya double...maybe even admission just to look at my stuff!! Tony (whose bringing a really strange mix this time...) Olde River Hard Goods 350 West Catawissa Street Nesquehoning PA 18240 570-669-9421 The best old tool store in Pennsylvania! http://www.oldetoolshop.com ---- Start of Message 130402 (thread 50469) ---- From: "S. Micah Salb" Date: 2004-03-09 16:16:16 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip Don't you always charge me double anyway???? That's -SMS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Seo" To: "S. Micah Salb" ; "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 4:00 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] PATINA Road Trip > At 03:28 PM 3/9/04, S. Micah Salb wrote: > >Ack! > > > >I REALLY was teasing! > > That's good to hear cause I was a fixin' to be charging ya double...maybe > even admission just to look at my stuff!! > > Tony (whose bringing a really strange mix this time...) > > > Olde River Hard Goods > 350 West Catawissa Street > Nesquehoning PA 18240 > 570-669-9421 > The best old tool store in Pennsylvania! > http://www.oldetoolshop.com > ---- Start of Message 130405 (thread 50469) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-09 13:54:39 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip >>Tony (whose bringing a really strange mix this time...) >> And..................... will it be a wheelbarrow or did we brake down and break out the drop light n wrenches and swap out that tranny? 8^) yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130409 (thread 50469) ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 2004-03-09 17:31:14 Subject: Re: PATINA Road Trip At 04:54 PM 3/9/04, scott grandstaff wrote: >>>Tony (whose bringing a really strange mix this time...) > And..................... will it be a wheelbarrow or did we brake down > and break out the drop light n wrenches and swap out that tranny? 8^) Nope but some buddy else did...to the tune of $2200.... Let's see if I sell Shannon 22 chisels at $100 each............. Tony Olde River Hard Goods 350 West Catawissa Street Nesquehoning PA 18240 570-669-9421 The best old tool store in Pennsylvania! http://www.oldetoolshop.com ---- Start of Message 130414 (thread 50469) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-09 18:25:26 Subject: RE: PATINA Road Trip This thread had me checking the calender (and choking on coffee) to see what the date is. Are we starting early this year???? Regards Jonathan >May have escaped a few readers, but c'mon, the at the tail of >Micah's >original very funny note was there in plain view...!! > >Cheers, > >Jim E #2 in Wisconsin ( ---- Start of Message 130457 (thread 50469) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-10 10:34:29 Subject: RE: PATINA Road Trip Hi Jonathan & All, Jonathan thinks PATINA seems early this year. Not so - it's traditionally been held on the first double-digit Saturday of March. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130471 (thread 50469) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-10 15:55:51 Subject: RE: PATINA Road Trip Hi, I don't want to let the cat out of the bag...just yet, so I'll just say....not refering to PATINA starting early this year. "The game is afoot" jonathan > >Hi Jonathan & All, > >Jonathan thinks PATINA seems early this year. Not so - it's >traditionally been held on the first double-digit Saturday of March. > >Best Wishes, >Bob > ++++ End of thread 50469 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50470 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130370 (thread 50470) ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-03-09 09:04:06 Subject: eBay, shipping, PayPal - Enough already! OK folks-- before Steve and I get inundated with complaints, I'd like to rein this one in. This discussion is careening at warp speed towards the off-topic abyss. eBay has lots of very nice forums for discussing these things, and that's where these discussions belong. -- Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL "He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; he who dares not is a slave" - Wm. Drummond ++++ End of thread 50470 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50471 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130371 (thread 50471) ---- From: "Bruce Dissel" Date: 2004-03-09 14:52:23 Subject: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) To all, Greetings from the desert SW.Been lurking a good while and thought I'd post a quck bio. Names Bruce Dissel and I live in the canyon country of SE Utah.I fight forest fires for a living summers and this gives me a lot of shop/tool hounding time otherwise.Enjoy making hardwood furniture and accesories.Main influence style-wise and plane-wise is Mr. Krenov.Made a plane kit from Ron Hock and starting to make more from scratch.Current old tool interest is small levels, which brings me to a question related to "Shiney does Pay"; Scored a Stratton Bros 10" # 10 for $60 recently.The brass is pretty well tarnished,has the ubiquitous bit of paint splatter but in really nice shape otherwise.I don't like my antiques to look new,either furniture or tools.Is there a way to clean up the brass a little bit without the scrubbed look?Also I know alcohol is a solvent for dried latex paint but worry about impacting the finish. Any suggestions welcome and sure enjoy the discussion group. Bruce ---- Start of Message 130433 (thread 50471) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-10 00:13:50 Subject: RE: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Hello Bruce You might try "Brasso" which is a brass polish with very very fine polishing grade grit. You should be able to easily control how aggressive it is because it is not at all very aggressive without considerable elbow grease. But its grit is finer and shouldn't show the scrubbed look you're worried about. BTW, I once polished a rosewood and brass handled pocketknife on a buffing wheel and it looked so bright and awkward afterward that I have never done it again since. The other product that springs to mind is "Bar Keeper's Friend" which comes in a gold looking container. It's a little bit like comet cleanser only milder (but I would say more abrasive than the brasso). I know its safe for small brass bar sinks. Rubbing compound used on car paint finishes might be another option. I would suspect most of it might even be milder than the brasso but it'd be thicker instead. You might even have some around your place now. You'd be surprised how many car waxes these days actually contain rubbing compound within their formula. Taking off a microscopic layer of paint helps brighten the finish. But I'd do some tests on some old brass first before taking it to the plane. I think horn players use brasso, too, IIRC. A lot of them don't like their horns too bright. Bruce said: I don't like my antiques to look new,either furniture or tools.Is there a way to clean up the brass a little bit without the scrubbed look? ---- Start of Message 130456 (thread 50471) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-10 10:31:51 Subject: RE: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Hi John & All, As a former professional car polisher/waxer, I must file a correction to John's advice about using auto rubbing compound as a mildly abrasive cleaner. What John meant was auto "polishing" compound. Rubbing compound is a rusty red color stuff that's quite gritty and abrasive - in the 220 sandpaper range. Polishing compound is white, is quite mild, and is indeed mixed in with almost all currrent day waxes. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130461 (thread 50471) ---- From: PAUL MORIN Date: 2004-03-10 09:04:58 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) One antiques website I was on suggested using the RED rubbing compound Turtle Wax sells. They say to use an old soft cotton cloth (or a something like a sock), apply a small amount, and work it in until it looks 'burnished'. Then you use it to carefully work your item. It is supposed to remove only the dirt, without strippin the patina off, and is recommended over 0000 Steel wool & wax/spirits. Haven't tried it myself, but I did pick a tin up - it's only a couple bucks and should last forever. for what it's worth. paul morin calgary, ab www.cranialstorage.com/wood > You might try "Brasso" which is a brass polish with very very fine > polishing grade grit. The other product that springs to mind is "Bar > Keeper's Friend" which comes in a gold looking container. It's a > little bit like comet cleanser onlymilder ---- Start of Message 130462 (thread 50471) ---- From: PAUL MORIN Date: 2004-03-10 09:19:28 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Hmmmm.... just read the message someone else left about using the white (polishing), rather than the red (rubbing - about 220 grit). Think perhaps I will be exchanging my purchase then. Just wanted to repoint that out since it occured a bit before my post of possible mis-information. paul morin calgary, ab > One antiques website I was on suggested using the RED rubbing compound > Turtle Wax sells. They say to use an old soft cotton cloth (or a > something like a sock), apply a small amount, and work it in until it > looks 'burnished'. Then you use it to carefully work your item. > > It is supposed to remove only the dirt, without strippin the patina > off, and is recommended over 0000 Steel wool & wax/spirits. > ---- Start of Message 130470 (thread 50471) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-10 14:24:52 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) It seems that the theme is "don't do as I do, do as I say. Tips on cleaning http://www.cranialstorage.com/wood/html/cleaning_your_plane.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "PAUL MORIN" To: "oldtools" Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 8:19 AM Subject: Re: RE: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay) > Hmmmm.... just read the message someone else left about using the white (polishing), rather than the red (rubbing - about 220 grit). > > Think perhaps I will be exchanging my purchase then. > > Just wanted to repoint that out since it occured a bit before my post of possible mis-information. > > > paul morin > calgary, ab > > > One antiques website I was on suggested using the RED rubbing > > compound Turtle Wax sells. They say to use an old soft cotton > > cloth (or a something like a sock), apply a small amount, and work > > it in until it looks 'burnished'. Then you use it to carefully > > work your item. > > > > It is supposed to remove only the dirt, without strippin the > > patina off, and is recommended over 0000 Steel wool & wax/spirits. > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130492 (thread 50471) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-11 01:22:48 Subject: RE: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Sorry about that, thanks for the correction, Bob. Goes to show what happens to knowledge when I don't have occasion to personally use it very often. > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Cc: > Date: 3/10/2004 9:31:55 AM > Subject: RE: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay) > > Hi John & All, > > As a former professional car polisher/waxer, I must file a correction to > John's advice about using auto rubbing compound as a mildly abrasive > cleaner. What John meant was auto "polishing" compound. Rubbing compound > is a rusty red color stuff that's quite gritty and abrasive - in the 220 > sandpaper range. Polishing compound is white, is quite mild, and is > indeed mixed in with almost all currrent day waxes. > > Best Wishes, > Bob ---- Start of Message 130521 (thread 50471) ---- From: Paul Morin Date: 2004-03-11 13:29:19 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Hmmmm... not sure if that's a slam (not taking it as one unless I'm distinctly informed otherwise). I'm the first to admit I don't know everything, heck - I'll admit I don't know nuthin' about most things. Most of the info I've cobbled together on my site (and I state it fairly clearly) has come directly from spending a lot of time going through the archives of the old tool group. Most of the info has the archive number listed with it. I only recently ran across the suggestion to skip steel wool, and use red rubbing compound (and they distinctly state to use the red, and not the white). I'm much more inclined to take the advice of someone from this group that says to use the white, not the red. Practical advice outdoes the best 'theory' almost everytime. I don't believe everything I read. And I never use anything I haven't tried before without testing on scrap, or something I don't care about. Wonders in the end if I completely missed your point. At least I know someone has visited the site though ;) paul morin calgary, ab www.cranialstorage.com/wood ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:24 pm Subject: Re: RE: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay) > > It seems that the theme is "don't do as I do, do as I say. Tips on > cleaning > http://www.cranialstorage.com/wood/html/cleaning_your_plane.html > > > ---- Start of Message 130524 (thread 50471) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-11 16:07:50 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Paul: The information you provide on your web site is sensible, constructive and above all, practical. My comments were tongue and cheek. I did not make my point clear. There are many Galoots that always caution the rest of us to use nothing but shellac. And God forbid we would use any glue other than hide glue. Cleaning a tool? Never. After all, if we remove the sweat and grime that it's original owner put there we would lose the value of the tool. Of course that also assumes that the orginal owner never wiped down his tools or ever made an attempt to clean them. After all, it would spoil the patina. Like he had any concern about patina. Me thinks some Galoots take this a bit too far. We all clean our tools and even polish them. I have some old tools that belonged to my Dad and Granddad. The first thing I did was remove the old sweat. I didn't think they would mind. MJD has done pretty well it seems and we never see dirty, grimy, sweat laden tools for sale on his site. Are we so naive to think that all tools must remain in the "just found" condition? We live in a real 21st Century time and just happen to like old tools. We are not reinactors trying to live in the past. Well, most of us are not. We all have seen the nice clean tools of the same Galoots that preach to the rest of us that we should not ruin our tools by cleaning. If we clean our user tools to whatever extent and it pleases us. . . great. But, if we clean the tools to hornswaggle a potential buyer. That's another matter. I once bought a No. 6 on eBay that was as shiny as can be. When it hit my front door it reeked of WD40 and the wife didn't want it in the house until I gave it a good bath in soap and water. The packing material had to be discarded immediately it smelled so bad. I was hornswaggled by "shiny". The helpful information on your web site is right on. Keep up the good work. I have saved your site in my Favorites and refer to it often. Another helful hint. For cleaning Brass, try Mothers Mag cream that can be found at most Auto Parts stores. Be careful with it. . . it will remove the tarnish. (grin) Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Morin" To: "Richard J. Hucker" Cc: "oldtools" Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 12:29 PM Subject: Re: RE: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay) > Hmmmm... not sure if that's a slam (not taking it as one unless I'm distinctly informed otherwise). I'm the first to admit I don't know everything, heck - I'll admit I don't know nuthin' about most things. > > Most of the info I've cobbled together on my site (and I state it fairly clearly) has come directly from spending a lot of time going through the archives of the old tool group. Most of the info has the archive number listed with it. > > I only recently ran across the suggestion to skip steel wool, and use red rubbing compound (and they distinctly state to use the red, and not the white). > > I'm much more inclined to take the advice of someone from this group that says to use the white, not the red. Practical advice outdoes the best 'theory' almost everytime. > > I don't believe everything I read. And I never use anything I haven't tried before without testing on scrap, or something I don't care about. > > Wonders in the end if I completely missed your point. At least I know someone has visited the site though ;) > > paul morin > calgary, ab > www.cranialstorage.com/wood > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard J. Hucker" > Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:24 pm > Subject: Re: RE: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay) > > > > > It seems that the theme is "don't do as I do, do as I say. > > Tips on cleaning > > http://www.cranialstorage.com/wood/html/cleaning_your_plane.html > > > > > > ---- Start of Message 130527 (thread 50471) ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-03-11 17:42:17 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Paul and Fellow Tool Aficionados, I have used both the red and the white rubbing compounds. The red is coarser than the white. I find each can be a valuable tool when used with the appropriate care, in the right circumstance. I always take care to remove any abrasive residue after use. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, Massachusetts > I only recently ran across the suggestion to skip steel wool, and use red rubbing compound (and they distinctly state to use the red, >and not the white). > > I'm much more inclined to take the advice of someone from this group that says to use the white, not the red. Practical advice >outdoes the best 'theory' almost everytime. > > > paul morin > calgary, ab ---- Start of Message 130528 (thread 50471) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-11 18:04:20 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Hi Paul & All, Re this red rubbing vs. white polishing compound thing. Do we maybe have a contextual mixup? My comments about using the white were made in the context of Paul having suggested rubbing compound might be milder and less abrasive than Brasso. That's definitely not true of any standard red rubbing compound I'm familiar with; it is true of the white polishing compound. I commented accordingly. There are some types of old tool cleanup jobs where the gritty red compound might work quite well and I'm certainly not saying not to use it for such - just don't start out thinking you're using something milder than Brasso. I also wonder if there might be some breed of red compound using jewelers rouge as a base which would indeed be milder than Brasso? Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130541 (thread 50471) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-11 22:10:26 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Richard writes : > There are many Galoots that always caution the rest of us to > use nothing but shellac. And God forbid we would use any glue > other than hide glue. Cleaning a tool? Never. After all, if we > remove the sweat and grime that it's original owner put there > we would lose the value of the tool. Of course that also assumes > that the orginal owner never wiped down his tools or ever made > an attempt to clean them. After all, it would spoil the patina. > Like he had any concern about patina. Me thinks some Galoots > take this a bit too far. There seems to be a strange undercurrent in oldtools that warps what people say, or how some hear it. I don't believe I've ever heard anybody say "use nothing but shellac", or "don't clean tools", or for that matter "hollow grind or get off the list". One of the list's goals is to focus on traditional ways of doing things. And doing them in a traditional environment. That using a tradition approach might get one closer to that goal is only inherent. Two hundred years ago you could not walk into a shop and see shiny tools producing polyurethaned objects. And they're just as out of place in the environment of this list. That's not to say any of this is good or bad, only that there are different places to go to enjoy different environments. I'm sure there are many groups on the internet in which the mention of wire-wheeling a tool wouldn't raise any eyebrows. Oldtools isn't one of them. There are other groups in which polyurethane is seen as a good thing. Again, oldtools isn't one of them. I think it would be easier if there was some way for someone new to oldtools to 'look around' to get some idea of what kind of place this is. Reading the archives may be a way, but certainly not everyone is prepared to do that. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that what this list was created to address is all that visible anymore, day-to-day, so it's a bit hard for a new person to get an idea of the place. Perhaps one way to understand the reason for oldtools' existence is to study the history of woodworking, from books or by stuying real items like furniture or woodwork. In my mind the feeling one gets when admiring a fine piece of old furniture is the feeling one should get when one spends a few minutes in oldtools. When one looks around the oldtools list, one should see old tools, either being used in their original function to produce fine items of woodwork, or just there to be admired for their own sake. One should also see a whole bunch of very friendly people, living a part of their lives together in this environment. As one of the older members of this list put it, it's all a game. And we're all having fun playing the game together. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130546 (thread 50471) ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-03-12 09:11:50 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Richard J. Hucker wrote: (with reference to NOT cleaning up tools) > We are not reinactors trying to live in the past. Well, most of us are not. Actually, a reenactor would want their tool to look clean and new. A period tool, when used "in period" is a new tool :-) BugBear ---- Start of Message 130549 (thread 50471) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-12 04:24:03 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Perhaps so BugBear. But that doesn't always hold true. Those that reenact the Civil War in the U.S. show up with some pretty clean and well pressed period clothing. And their weapons are clean. They wouldn't dare fire a black powder weapon that is encrusted with powder residue. I have some black powder handguns, rifles, and a field cannon that are well cared for . . . no patina is wanted. Huck ----- Original Message ----- From: "bugbear" To: "oldtools" Cc: "oldtools" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 1:11 AM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay) > Richard J. Hucker wrote: (with reference to NOT cleaning up tools) > > We are not reinactors trying to live in the past. Well, most of us are not. > > Actually, a reenactor would want their tool to look clean and new. > A period tool, when used "in period" is a new tool :-) > > BugBear > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130550 (thread 50471) ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-03-12 06:19:40 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) >> Actually, a reenactor would want their tool to look clean and new. >> A period tool, when used "in period" is a new tool :-) >> Would a cabinetmaker not possibly have his grandfather's tools, and therefore be using a 1780's tool in a an 1820's re-enactment? Ed Minch I have a type 2 #3 (smallish smoother, Jeff) that has a used up sweetheart blade in it. This means that the tools was 50 years old when it got it last blade, and then that was used up! ---- Start of Message 130560 (thread 50471) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-12 08:35:04 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) For me, there is pleasure in rescuing the babies that were throw out with the bathwater of mass production. I shave with a straight razor, write with a fountain pen, use a vacuum tube amplifier in my stereo, and smooth the surface of boards with a hand plane, because I refuse to be in such a hurry that I squeeze the aesthetic value out of everything to gain a few minutes of time - time which will then just be filled with more rushing and more mass-produced, soulless junk. In the drive to achieve instant gratification, we have spent a century trying to shorten the learning curve and eliminate the chance of error in every human activity. There is much good in this, but something has been almost lost in the process. The Galoots are the guardians of that which was almost lost: the challenge of trying to master a skill that can never be fully mastered, the creative freedom that comes from intimacy with a medium as complex as wood, the sense of self-sufficiency that comes from knowing that you can make a useful object with tools so simple that you can make the tools too, and the peaceful meditation of trying to bring eye, hand and wood together into harmony through finess and understanding rather than brute force. That is some of what I see on this list. >>> Paul Pedersen 03/11/2004 8:10:26 PM >>> Richard writes : > There are many Galoots that always caution the rest of us to > use nothing but shellac. And God forbid we would use any glue > other than hide glue. Cleaning a tool? Never. After all, if we > remove the sweat and grime that it's original owner put there > we would lose the value of the tool. Of course that also assumes > that the orginal owner never wiped down his tools or ever made > an attempt to clean them. After all, it would spoil the patina. > Like he had any concern about patina. Me thinks some Galoots > take this a bit too far. There seems to be a strange undercurrent in oldtools that warps what people say, or how some hear it. I don't believe I've ever heard anybody say "use nothing but shellac", or "don't clean tools", or for that matter "hollow grind or get off the list". One of the list's goals is to focus on traditional ways of doing things. And doing them in a traditional environment. That using a tradition approach might get one closer to that goal is only inherent. Two hundred years ago you could not walk into a shop and see shiny tools producing polyurethaned objects. And they're just as out of place in the environment of this list. That's not to say any of this is good or bad, only that there are different places to go to enjoy different environments. I'm sure there are many groups on the internet in which the mention of wire-wheeling a tool wouldn't raise any eyebrows. Oldtools isn't one of them. There are other groups in which polyurethane is seen as a good thing. Again, oldtools isn't one of them. I think it would be easier if there was some way for someone new to oldtools to 'look around' to get some idea of what kind of place this is. Reading the archives may be a way, but certainly not everyone is prepared to do that. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that what this list was created to address is all that visible anymore, day-to-day, so it's a bit hard for a new person to get an idea of the place. Perhaps one way to understand the reason for oldtools' existence is to study the history of woodworking, from books or by stuying real items like furniture or woodwork. In my mind the feeling one gets when admiring a fine piece of old furniture is the feeling one should get when one spends a few minutes in oldtools. When one looks around the oldtools list, one should see old tools, either being used in their original function to produce fine items of woodwork, or just there to be admired for their own sake. One should also see a whole bunch of very friendly people, living a part of their lives together in this environment. As one of the older members of this list put it, it's all a game. And we're all having fun playing the game together. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130567 (thread 50471) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-12 08:54:27 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) Hi Ed---I have a 3c with the same kind of pedigree---its last blade is a SW, and that one is worn down to the slot---the bottom of this plane is severely worn, rounded really---you can see from the wear on the corrugations the the toe and tail are at least 1/16 more worn away than the throat area...a straightedge reveals the same thing. So this particular plane has been at work for about 150 years, only ten or so of those years in its 'period'... best to all Gs everywhere; gAM seattle Ed wrote: I have a type 2 #3 (smallish smoother, Jeff) that has a used up sweetheart blade in it. This means that the tools was 50 years old when it got it last blade, and then that was used up! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130577 (thread 50471) ---- From: Paul Morin Date: 2004-03-12 11:04:32 Subject: Re: Bio-(and Shiney does pay) It's very very possible.... I don't think i have the original post your comments were made on. One of those oddball see all the replies, but miss the original. I believe the article I red where they recommended the red rubbing compound (turtlewax) was mostly intended for cleaning of wooden (antique) items. I've never used it, haven't had a chance to try it yet. When you mentioned the white compound, I may very well have crossed my wires, thinking you meant the white turtlewax polishing compound. I apologize if I inadvertantly mixed car cleaning items up with jewellers white/rouge polishing compounds. I would imagine the makeup, and use of them are different. I apologize for the confusion I've inadvertantly caused. For now, I think I'll just use Brasso to polish the spittoon. If someone would pass it over here....... paul morin calgary, ab www.cranialstorage.com/wood ----- Original Message ----- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: Thursday, March 11, 2004 4:04 pm Subject: Re: RE: [oldtools] Bio-(and Shiney does pay) > Hi Paul & All, > > Re this red rubbing vs. white polishing compound thing. Do we maybe > have a contextual mixup? My comments about using the white were made > in the context of Paul having suggested rubbing compound might be > milder and less abrasive than Brasso. That's definitely not true of > any standard red rubbing compound I'm familiar with; it is true of > the white polishing compound. I commented accordingly. There are > some types of old tool cleanup jobs where the gritty red compound > might work quite well and I'm certainly not saying not to use it for > such - just don't start out thinking you're using something milder > than Brasso. > > I also wonder if there might be some breed of red compound using > jewelers rouge as a base which would indeed be milder than Brasso? > > Best Wishes, Bob > > ++++ End of thread 50471 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50472 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130375 (thread 50472) ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-03-09 15:13:54 Subject: Talking of Pit Sawing. . (longish) It seems that the local Council has run out of money to give us some cash, and we need ideas to make a case. . here's the note I received "I tried this on with WCC, but it appears that they are broke; no awards available because of clampdowns on Council Tax levels. Bloody John Prescott... However, the office who deal with these grants reckon that 'Awards for All' which is part of the National Lottery would be a good prospect. So I've downloaded the form and we'll try it on. If you can think of any relationship (however tenuous) between the sawpit and Multiculturalism Social Exclusion Socially attributable health problems Crime Prevention Involving social minorities (ie people who don't drop litter, swear gratuitously or consume vast amounts of salt, fat and sugar) Let me know. It'll all help." So - any ideas amongst us galoots. . . . My first draft which went around our group was like this. . . This proposal is to enable Pepper Wood Community Group to complete the construction of an educational facility demonstrating the conversion of trees to furniture by hand as it would have taken place prior to the introduction of machinery. Pepper Wood Community Group manages a Woodland Trust owned area of 134 acres of part-coppiced oak woodland. The Group is responsible for maintaining a traditional coppice with standards rotation over part of the woodland to promote wildlife habitat and regeneration, and invites participation by volunteers in traditional coppicing. The wood has hosted visits from various parties, and gives demonstrations using typical coppice product. Items such as split hazel hurdlemaking and the manufacture of split oak fence posts using wedges, drawknives and axes. Public interest (and participation) in these activities at demonstrations is consistently high, and the group has widened its demonstration ability to include the use of shave horses and pole lathes to demonstrate production of simple benches from green oak. It is now proposed to complete the 'woodland produce' circle by creating a working pit sawing demonstration area and interpretation boards, and it is for this element that grant funding is sought. Pit sawing of trees into boards is a technique which is mentioned in Roman times, and was the only method of reducing a log to sawn boards for hundreds of years. Although much timber was split, or riven' using sledgehammers and wedges, this is a wasteful means of preparing timber, and the resulting timber requires a large amount of work to dimension it and ready it for use in a manufactured product. Timber which is not amenable to splitting, such as Elm, must be sawn, and the Pit saw was developed for this especial task, and continues in use in many areas of the world. The English tradition requires the log to be supported and placed over a pit, into which one of the sawyers descends. The 'top dog' sawyer is responsible for guiding the saw as the bottom man pulls the blade down, and the two lift the blade for the next stroke. A pit saw is a large and specialised two man saw, several feet long. A 12 hour day spent sawing was hard work indeed, and the sawyers tended to be both wiry and morose. The 'underdog' spent his working day in a pit being showered with sawdust, with perhaps accounts for their taciturnity. Whilst historically accurate for the majority of pit sawing which took place, a pit is neither conducive to public viewing nor safety, so the alternative arrangement for pit sawing, whereby the log is lifted onto trestles will be used to allow the public both to experience being the underdog, and to see and understand the process. The arrangement of the timber onto a raised trestle is equally historically accurate, though was less used in this country, due to the difficulty of raising some tons of timber onto the trestles. In countries where this is and was practiced, earth banks and inclined planes of timber were and are used. In Pepper Wood, the available oak timber is still quite young and of small dimension (for an oak tree!) so the pit saw demonstration area will be constructed with a shallow pit to indicate the small and claustrophobic work situation, and over it a pair of trestles with side timbers to provide an inclined plane for loading and unloading of the timber. This structure and associated works is the principal construction expenditure for the project. Sketches and drawings are attached. Pit saws having been long out of normal use, locating saws which can be put back to use is the major difficulty. However, from time to time they become available amongst old tools collectors and dealers, and there should be no especial difficulty in locating suitable saws. The axes and adzes needed for preparation are still readily available. Safety in handling large timber is a necessary modern change to the methods of loading and unloading, and suitably rated winches and straps will be required. Saw maintenance was and remains the most essential part of sawing, and a saw will be provided to illustrate the differences in saw tooth configurations and the precision required and achieved by hand filing. Whilst the sight of two people at work and the opportunity to become exercised by sawing has some entertainment value in itself, it is in providing an understanding of the place of the sawyer and the pit saw in the development of western society which is the aim of the project. Given that housing, the Industrial Revolution, and the Agrarian Revolution which preceded it were dependent on wooden artifacts for transport, for early machinery, farm implements and for furniture, the role of the sawyer and the scale of the labour involved needs to be explained, and a series of interpretation boards will be provided to amplify and explain the exhibit and demonstration. The production of these will incur a major part of the overall costs. As part of the overall scheme, the output from pit sawing of green timber will be taken to the existing facilities of shave horse and pole lathe, where items such as field gates and joint stools can be produced and finished at the same time. A typical visit / demonstration would therefore cover the entire spectrum of timber felling, conversion, and the production of recognisable utility items from the converted material. The small scale of the undertaking will allow the economy of use inherent in hand work to be demonstrated and explained, and as the hand tools used are all inherently safer than a modern power tool equivalent, it is anticipated that members of the public can try their hand at each part of the operation. Funding and grant requirements Grant aid is sought for the capital costs of building and setting up the demonstration equipment and site and the interpretation material for the public. The ongoing costs of maintenance and depreciation will be funded by the Community Group out of existing income generated by sales of coppice product. Any saleable artifacts which result from the demonstrations will help to finance the ongoing costs of replacement and maintenance. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ++++ End of thread 50472 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50473 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130377 (thread 50473) ---- From: Louis Schmidt Date: 2004-03-09 10:20:25 Subject: Any Gallots in Franklin TN? Hi All, I am considering a move to Franklin TN. Any gallots from there or near there? Any advise about economy, tool availability, acceptance and what to expect from nearby Nashville would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again all. Lou ++++ End of thread 50473 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50474 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130381 (thread 50474) ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-03-09 11:25:30 Subject: Old tool/wood sitings at the Art Institute of Chicago 1. The Rembrandt special exhibit (complete with a guy showing how etchings are printed) has a lovely painting of Jesus's home life, complete with his Dad working at a bench behind the crib. Dad appears to be using an ax to shape a short beam -- the ax has a notch so it can be held close to the blade. There is also a bit (single flute) and brace on the wall behind him, even though the brace was invented well after Roman times. 2. There's also a short hallway with 20th century furniture, including a Wendell Castle laminated bench, the Magician's Birthday Cake clock-like sculpture, and a curvy music stand/lectern. Further down is a real Greene & Greene chair (with lots of "patina") as well as several Stickley and Wright pieces. I'm incredibly happy that I finally saw a G&G piece in person since I've never been able to see the details of their famous cloud lift. The cloud lift, in case anyone else is a G&G fan, is not a squared-off "S" section. It's hard to describe, but a lift that looks something like this: /------------\ ----------/ \----------- -------------------------------------- has been rounded (at the slashes) so that it looks more like a round cornered rectangle on top of the lower piece. The radius between the horizontal and the slashes is quite tight in the side view; it's rounded much more when viewed from the top. >From the top: -------------------------------------- / \ | | \ / -------------------------------------- If it helps any, look at the wide cloud lifts used on beams -- they look like a stack of round cornered rectangles as well, not a rounded staircase done with a coping/b*nd saw; the chair stretchers have the same shape but with much less depth, of course.=20 The other aspect that is much clearer in person is that the cloud lifts define "negative space" -- the convex shape formed in the gap between two lifts is quite clear. Hand tool content: The usual G&G cloud lift imitation looks like it has been done with a template and *l*ctr*c router, or a b*nd saw; I think you'd have to use a rasp to round the slightly angled, lifted part if you want it to look like the original. ---- Start of Message 130384 (thread 50474) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-03-09 11:46:20 Subject: Re: Old tool/wood sitings at the Art Institute of Chicago Meltsner, Kenneth wrote: >1. The Rembrandt special exhibit (complete with a guy showing how >etchings are printed) has a lovely painting of Jesus's home life, >complete with his Dad working at a bench behind the crib. Dad appears >to be using an ax to shape a short beam -- the ax has a notch so it can >be held close to the blade. There is also a bit (single flute) and >brace on the wall behind him, even though the brace was invented well >after Roman times. A few weeks back the Boston Globe did a story on the practice of burying a statue of St Joseph --i.e. Jesus' Dad-- in your yard (apparently, it's supposed to help you sell your house and/or get a good price). All of the statues they showed had St Joseph holding a "bismark" plane (i.e. a horned woody smoother). I don't know how standard this depiction of St Joseph's is (perhaps those more knowledgable than I can comment); but it caught my eye. Nichael ---- Start of Message 130388 (thread 50474) ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-03-09 13:59:35 Subject: Re: Old tool/wood sitings at the Art Institute of Chicago Nichael Cramer wrote: > A few weeks back the Boston Globe did a story on the practice of > burying > a statue of St Joseph --i.e. Jesus' Dad-- in your yard (apparently, > it's > supposed to help you sell your house and/or get a good price). > GG: In my neck of the woods it is always buried with his head showing. Can't make many shavings in that position. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 130389 (thread 50474) ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-03-09 14:15:31 Subject: RE: Old tool/wood sitings at the Art Institute of Chicago Found a Net-accessible copy of the picture of Jesus and his dad the carpenter: http://www.abcgallery.com/R/rembrandt/rembrandt76.html Definitely easier to see the tools on the original, though. Ken ---- Start of Message 130390 (thread 50474) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-09 14:29:12 Subject: Re: Old tool/wood sitings at the Art Institute of Chicago Hi Nichael & All, Nichael's comment about burying the statue of St. Joseph for house selling purposes tweaked my interest enough for me to plug "St. Joseph statue" into Google. I'd never heard of that before, but the first several listings are for outfits selling the statues for that purpose. After seeing them, it now strikes me as a Barnum "one born every minute" type thing. The statue shown by one of those outfits did not have him holding a plane. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130416 (thread 50474) ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-03-09 18:58:17 Subject: Re: Old tool/wood sitings at the Art Institute of Chicago > > Nichael Cramer wrote: > >> A few weeks back the Boston Globe did a story on the practice of >> burying >> a statue of St Joseph --i.e. Jesus' Dad-- in your yard (apparently, >> it's >> supposed to help you sell your house and/or get a good price). >> > > GG: > > In my neck of the woods it is always buried with his head showing. > Can't make many shavings in that position. My neck of the woods isn't so far from your's, and I've always heard the statue is supposed to be head down. After sale, one is supposed to dig it up and place it in the new home in a conspicuous place. I have a suspicion this "tradition" started when some policeman of the Emerald Society, whose patron is St. Joseph, teamed up with a real estate agent (who is no stranger to the bottle) to start it. It spread like wildfire. Anyway, depictions of St. Joseph with handplanes are very common. A few decorate my shop. My sister is in a convent with a large statue that has St. Joseph holding a Bismark plane. I like that statue, and hope it never gets buried. Regards, Steve ++++ End of thread 50474 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50475 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130391 (thread 50475) ---- From: tomthornton Date: 2004-03-09 07:49:21 Subject: Shipping costs I'll take the other side, I've had two grinders come in with broken necks due to lousy packing and really there is no recourse. I only paid 10.00 for one and 11.00 for other so they are not worth hassling about. But I'd rather pay too much and get it right than go cheap and loose everything. I now rarely buy e-bay grinders because of shipping risk. I have bot several Comptometers, very heavy, and offered to pay extra for secure packing. The all came in ok, but same thing applies, if they were damaged in shipment there would be simply no value left. Many times it is better to pay too much than too little. Think about it !! -- Tom Thornton Cincinnati #3, Morristown N.J. USA Collector of old tools, specializing in Hand Cranked Grindstones ++++ End of thread 50475 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50476 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130395 (thread 50476) ---- From: "Ron Hock" Date: 2004-03-09 12:22:31 Subject: Last word, I hope, but a bit more on-topic...Re: [oldtools] Minimum bid vs reser Todd speaks truth (though I doubt the SOB part): > Guess I am a trusting S.O.B but I hardly ever wait till a check clears > to ship an item out that I sold. A personal check payment gets shipped just > as fast,[normally with in 3 days of getting it] as a Money Order payment. > Maybe I have been lucky but in many,[and I mean many!] thousands of > transactions have never had a bad check. One bounced but was a mistake and > the guy made good right away. I actually prefer a person pays with a check > because it is easier to deal with if something goes wrong like it gets lost > in the mail or the bidder pays me twice.....Todd Todd groks something that the rest of you are feeling but not fully trusting. In 22 years of doing business with woodworkers (thousands of transactions) I've been burned exactly twice (I can name them both...) I don't know about the rest of eBay (and I really couldn't care less) but if you're dealing with the woodworking community, you're dealing with the highest level of integrity, intelligence, decency and honesty. The convenience of trusting your customers far outweighs the perceived security of money orders or waiting for checks to clear and the attendant pita. Give yourselves a big hug and pat on the back and accept my deepest gratitude for making at least part of my job so incredibly easy. Ya' gotta love a Galoot! So TRUST one another -- go ahead, it Feels Good! Don't let the Dark Side of eBay-and-Gomorrah dim the glow of our Fundamental Goodness. OldTools Terms elevate us from the gutter of everyday commerce and affirm our special place in the grand order of things. Take PRIDE (yes, I said it, PRIDE) in who you are and your special relationship with wood and its workers. Rise up and SHINE, brothers and sisters, for you have earned it by your noble thoughts and deeds! Everybody get together try to love one another right now... (Sorry, that just happens to be playing in the background as I'm typing this. It's cosmic. Really it is.) Can I get an "Amen"?! Peace, The Rev (Who learned quite a lot from this very off-topic thread about eBay sellers and how they think.) ----- Ron Hock HOCK TOOLS www.hocktools.com 16650 Mitchell Creek Dr. Fort Bragg, CA 95437 (707) 964-2782 toll free: (888) 282-5233 fax: (707) 964-7816 ++++ End of thread 50476 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50477 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130396 (thread 50477) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-09 20:26:58 Subject: Last word, I hope, but a bit more on-topic...Re: Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shi AMEN! Brother Ron. AMEN! ++++ End of thread 50477 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50478 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130397 (thread 50478) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-09 12:27:07 Subject: Things that go bump in the night I am curious about something. Since I am just one cut above computer illiterate, I don't quite understand why I sometimes read replies to messages that I never received. And sometimes I send a post to oldtools and never see it. Does this happen to others? Do emails just vanish into the ether? Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA Just wondering in So Cal where it is 92 degrees right now. ---- Start of Message 130404 (thread 50478) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-09 13:48:32 Subject: Re: Things that go bump in the night > I don't quite understand why I sometimes read replies to messages > that I never received. And sometimes I send a post to oldtools and > never see it. Does this happen to others? > Yup. me also. Anyone else? I suspect the rampant virus and server pinged-to-death activity going on out there right now is causing some trouble. It's sporadic here. Then returns to normal. Hope this isn't what we can learn to expect now. Death to spammers and a special lingering hell to virus inventors! Oh, I never saw a copy of your post either, Esther, and now I's suspicious our servers are having a private spat on top of regular hysteria. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130410 (thread 50478) ---- From: "David Clapp" Date: 2004-03-09 16:34:36 Subject: Re: Things that go bump in the night Scott says: >Yup. me also. Anyone else? > I suspect the rampant virus and server pinged-to-death activity going >on out there right now is causing some trouble. It's sporadic here. Then >returns to normal. Hope this isn't what we can learn to expect now. I use a hotmail address for the list and I swear that everytime there's an Orange Alert, the mail kinda stops and then comes in as a wave (or not) sometime later. Maybe I've just spent too much time with LeCarre/Oliver Stone/X Files/Mitnick etc. David Clapp _________________________________________________________________ Fast. Reliable. Get MSN 9 Dial-up - 3 months for the price of 1! (Limited-time Offer) http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ ---- Start of Message 130412 (thread 50478) ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-03-09 22:33:58 Subject: re: Things that go bump in the night I'm not sure but it may be related to certian Galoots ability to shanghi FS posts with nice saws in them. Easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle than to sneak a saw past TP. Steve ---- Start of Message 130526 (thread 50478) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-11 16:39:27 Subject: Re: Things that go bump in the night I don't get much of that but I found an easier way around starting a thread. I simply reply all to someone, select all and cut the body of the message and then I backspace over the name but not the oldtools part. Then I backspace over the subject topic and write whatever I want to. So far using this method I have seen all of my messages and things work fine. Now the thing I do get is double messages. One night I mentioned it to my ISP and they helped me out with some sw setting changes on another issue. I was getting returned messages which is why I adopted the above mentioned method in my first paragraph. If anyone is having similiar trouble that 'fix" worked for me. You might want to try that when starting a new conversation thread, Jim. Jim Thompson: Also, I don't know if you know this but originally the internet was not conceived for social civilian use. It was meant to communicate via secured servers in the event of nuclear war. Apparently the secured servers were immune to EM Pulses, probably with lead shielding or somesuch. Those are vaguely the details the way I remember it, I am sure it has come a long way since and have no doubt there are those much more knowledgeable on the topic on the oldtools list. Anyway, my general impression is that maybe some of the pathways certain messages you post work while others do not. I am guessing that my above mentioned method may work because it takes an already known useable path. Beyond that it apparently gets really tricky. I seem to vaguely recall something about messages being split up and sent different ways or something along those lines. The gist of it is that if one server/computer is taken out due to military action the message will still get through. Try the above method for starting your threads. It's really very easy once you do it a few times. > From: scott grandstaff > Jim Thompson said: > > I don't quite understand why I sometimes read replies to messages > > that I never received. And sometimes I send a post to oldtools and > > never see it. Does this happen to others? > > > Yup. me also. Anyone else? > I suspect the rampant virus and server pinged-to-death activity > going on out there right now is causing some trouble. It's sporadic > here. Then returns to normal. Hope this isn't what we can learn to > expect now. > Death to spammers and a special lingering hell to virus inventors! As far as viruses go I use earthlink for an ISP and their online email virus scanner so all my emails should be virus free. They really seem on top of it but otherwise McAfee or a similiar program would be a good idea for anyone. ++++ End of thread 50478 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50479 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130406 (thread 50479) ---- From: NickNaylo@a... Date: 2004-03-09 17:08:30 Subject: Re: Last word, I hope, but a bit more on-topic...Re: [oldtools] Minimum bid vs r No wonder he's called The Reverend Ron. ms-sf Rise up and SHINE, brothers and sisters, for you have earned it by your noble thoughts and deeds! Everybody get together try to love one another right now... (Sorry, that just happens to be playing in the background as I'm typing this. It's cosmic. Really it is.) Can I get an "Amen"?! Peace, The Rev ++++ End of thread 50479 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50480 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130408 (thread 50480) ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-03-09 22:21:35 Subject: Ohio Tool Co. Transitional I found a very nice Ohio Tool Co. transitional yesterday. About seven and three quartes long with a one and three-quartes width blade. Ohio Tool globe logo on the iron and very faintly on the body. At first ans even second glance it looks very much like the Stanley 21 thru 25 series. The bigest difference is this one has a thich tapered blade. Even without truing the sole it takes very nice shavings. At $7.50 is this a gloat or did I buy expensive fire wood? Hoped someone could give me som information as I cn't seem to find much reference material on Ohio Tool. Thanks Steve ---- Start of Message 130415 (thread 50480) ---- From: Steve and Dianne Noe Date: 2004-03-09 18:39:22 Subject: Re: Ohio Tool Co. Transitional on 3/9/04 5:21 PM, Steve lineback at stevelineback@c... wrote: [snip]=20 >Even without truing the sole it takes > very nice shavings. At $7.50 is this a gloat or did I buy expensive fire = wood? I think you answered your own question: it takes nice shavings. What more can you ask? > Hoped someone could give me som information as I cn't seem to find much > reference material on Ohio Tool. > Thanks > Steve Sorry I can't help with Ohio tools details - maybe Tony Seo or Jim Cook. Steve Noe, in Indianapolis dandsnoe@m... We are not =B3Passengers on SpaceShip Earth,=B2 we are crew, and it=B9s about time we took our duties seriously. ---- Start of Message 130423 (thread 50480) ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-03-09 18:01:08 Subject: Re: Ohio Tool Co. Transitional Offhand, the thing that I remember about Ohio metal and transitional planes is that they used the same numbering system as Stanley except the numbers are prefixed by an "O" (letter o) which could be mistaken for a "0" (zero). And of course the bench planes had thicker tapered blades. One of my favorite planes is an Ohio-made No. 3 size smoother. Can't seem to find the Ohio catalog reprint at the moment, but I am pretty sure that they made a O21 as well as many of the other sizes equivelant to Stanley's. ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130438 (thread 50480) ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-03-10 07:15:00 Subject: Re: Ohio Tool Co. Transitional A good source of Ohio Tool information is Mark van Roojen's webpage: http://www.geocities.com/mvr1.geo/oldtoolinfo.html ---- Start of Message 130443 (thread 50480) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 2004-03-10 08:52:46 Subject: Re: Ohio Tool Co. Transitional Steve Lineback asked: >I found a very nice Ohio Tool Co. transitional yesterday. About >seven and three quarters long with a one and three-quarters width >blade. Ohio Tool globe logo on the iron and very faintly on the >body. At first and even second glance it looks very much like the >Stanley 21 thru 25 series. The biggest difference is this one has a >thick tapered blade. ... From a small flyer of "Ohio Adjustable Planes" published about 1915 (republished by Ken Roberts, 1981): "Adjustable Wood Bottom Planes" Smooths Invoice Length Cutter Nos. Inches Inches O21 . . . 7 . . 1 3/4 O22 . . . 8 . . 1 3/4 O23 . . . 9 . . 1 3/4 O24 . . . 8 . . 2 This same flyer also promoted the tapered irons as a feature: "The Cutters in 'Ohio' Iron and Wood bottom Bench Planes are made EXTRA HEAVY AT THE CUTTING END where weight is needed, tapering gradually toward the top of the iron. This absolutely prevents chatter and trembling when the planes are used on hard or knotty timber." In his commentary accompanying this flyer, Roberts reports that it was believed that the manufacture of metallic and adjustable wood bottom planes, by the Ohio Tool Company, began subsequent to the buyout of the Ohio Tool Company by the Auburn Tool Company in 1893. Does anyone know when the "globe logo" came into use? Ken Roberts also reproduced the cover and one page from an undated catalogue (but which mentions an award from the 1900 Paris Exposition), which shows a logo with the letters "O" "T" & "Co" superimposed on each other. This seems to suggest that the globe logo *may* have come in to use some time after 1900 (but definitely by 1910, when it is prominently shown in Catalogue No. 23). Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ++++ End of thread 50480 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50481 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130411 (thread 50481) ---- From: Mark Marsay Date: 2004-03-09 22:35:50 Subject: Last word, I hope, but a bit more on-topic...Re: [oldtools] Minimum bid vs reser Tutti amen, dio glorioso! didn't realise what I was starting by a simple question! and the results of both the list replies and off list replies: No one knows which is best, its come out about 50:50. Listmoms: sorry for starting this! Regards, Mark Marsay, Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. > >Subject: Last word, I hope, but a bit more on-topic...Re: [oldtools] >Minimum bid vs reserve, was Shipping Costs From: "Ron Hock" >Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 12:22:31 -0800 To: "oldtools" > >Todd speaks truth (though I doubt the SOB part): > >> Guess I am a trusting S.O.B but I hardly ever wait till a check >clears >> to ship an item out that I sold. A personal check payment gets >> shipped >just >> as fast,[normally with in 3 days of getting it] as a Money Order >> payment. Maybe I have been lucky but in many,[and I mean many!] >> thousands of transactions have never had a bad check. One bounced but >> was a mistake and the guy made good right away. I actually prefer a >> person pays with a check because it is easier to deal with if >> something goes wrong like it gets >lost >> in the mail or the bidder pays me twice.....Todd > >Todd groks something that the rest of you are feeling but not fully >trusting. In 22 years of doing business with woodworkers (thousands of >transactions) I've been burned exactly twice (I can name them both...) >I don't know about the rest of eBay (and I really couldn't care less) >but if you're dealing with the woodworking community, you're dealing >with the highest level of integrity, intelligence, decency and honesty. >The convenience of trusting your customers far outweighs the perceived >security of money orders or waiting for checks to clear and the >attendant pita. > >Give yourselves a big hug and pat on the back and accept my deepest >gratitude for making at least part of my job so incredibly easy. Ya' >gotta love a Galoot! > >So TRUST one another -- go ahead, it Feels Good! Don't let the Dark >Side of eBay-and-Gomorrah dim the glow of our Fundamental Goodness. >OldTools Terms elevate us from the gutter of everyday commerce and >affirm our special place in the grand order of things. Take PRIDE >(yes, I said it, PRIDE) in who you are and your special relationship >with wood and its workers. Rise up and SHINE, brothers and sisters, >for you have earned it by your noble thoughts and deeds! Everybody get >together try to love one another right now... (Sorry, that just >happens to be playing in the background as I'm typing this. It's >cosmic. Really it is.) > >Can I get an "Amen"?! > >Peace, The Rev (Who learned quite a lot from this very off-topic thread >about eBay sellers and how they think.) > > >----- >Ron Hock HOCK TOOLS www.hocktools.com 16650 Mitchell Creek Dr. Fort >Bragg, CA 95437 >(707) 964-2782 toll free: (888) 282-5233 fax: (707) 964-7816 > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ++++ End of thread 50481 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50482 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130413 (thread 50482) ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-03-09 14:52:30 Subject: Stuck Chuck It's a 10" Craftsman brace marked BB, so Miller Falls? Looks to be rosewood and nice and stout. The ratcheting locks (haven't found a nice labeled diagram yet, so I'll make up terminology) move freely when the sleeve is rotated. But the chuck itself is happy where it is. Soaked it in kerosene for three days and slid a 1" crescent wrench in the slot and whacked on it until I got tired. There was a webpage (which I can't find now) where someone posted their illustrated adventure in disassembling a ratcheting chuck. The only way in seems to be the screw on the top, which doesn't budge either. There are two pins evident that hold the two locks in place. Perhaps driving them out would give me more access to the chuck bearing, but that's probably a low-percentage approach. I realize it's easier to relegate this brace to the non-ratcheting pile, but this is the nicest one I have so far and I want to see it be all that it can be. So, fire? ice? Bolt it to the washing machine for a few months? Maybe this could become a webcam event--I'll take suggestions from the audience and bets made whether it breaks before it's fixed. Kyle Accardi waiting for the final coat of shellac to dry on the new bench ---- Start of Message 130419 (thread 50482) ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-03-10 01:12:29 Subject: re: Stuck Chuck Kyle Befor you get drastic you might pop it in the electro rap tank for an hour or so. Just the chuck end, no need to get the wood wet. Steve ---- Start of Message 130434 (thread 50482) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-10 00:38:56 Subject: RE: Stuck Chuck Kyle Accardi posted: > Soaked it in kerosene for three days and slid a 1" crescent wrench in the > slot and whacked on it until I got tired. There was a webpage (which I > can't find now) where someone posted their illustrated adventure in > disassembling a ratcheting chuck. I suggest you go to your nearest automotive store and hope they have a red and white metal pint can of "Seafoam". This car product has taken a cue from one of the airplane's industry finest solvents known as Stoddard Solvent. As I recall its 1/3 solvent, 1/3 lubricant, and 1/3 alcohol so keep it away from the shellac finishes as well. It excels at loosening bolts and it is relabeled as "Deep Creep" in a pressurized spray can for just this kind of thing. I gotta look at the picture again. If you could get the wooden handle off safely I would try heat. Maybe you could even wrap up the wood handle and dunk it all but the chuck in some icewater and heat it with a torch. Most people say heat the inside and try it hot but I find that unneccesarily dangerous and do just the opposite (heat the outside) and wait for it to cool before trying it. I reason that this, at least in the typical nut and bolt problem, compresses the rust between the nut and the bolt. It squeezes it, compacts it, weakens it, whathave you.... and well this works if nothing else does. If this doesn't work I usually add a piece of pipe as an extension and sometimes it comes off greating great heat as it does and other times it snaps and I spend an hour nervously drilling hoping not to ruin the threads. (this is from car repair experience, BTW) Another thing I should mention with the soaking solvent idea. Most people highly under rate the idea of just giving it an occasional tap with a mallet or hammer. This just helps the solvent/lubricant into the deep rust. I've heard others swear by heating it and using beeswax. Apparently it draws it right in there and the guy I got this from is one of the most amazingly talented people I have ever met in terms of all things mechanical so his word is good by me. You have to be careful with this next bit but sometimes I make a minor effort to tighten it before loosening it. This is a little like rocking a car out of a hole. Sometimes this will give you just enough added clearance within the tight parts that the solvent and lubricant can sink in and do its job. Good luck. This makes me wonder if there is anything that might chemically dissolve rust but not the metal. That would seem ideal to your problem. ---- Start of Message 130435 (thread 50482) ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-03-09 23:07:34 Subject: Re: Stuck Chuck John Sawchak suggest Seafoam which I will look for. But he loses me in the following, > Most people say heat the inside and try it hot but I find that unneccesarily > dangerous and do just the opposite (heat the outside) and wait for it to > cool before trying it. By inside, do you mean, umm what do you mean? > If this doesn't work I usually > add a piece of pipe as an extension and sometimes it comes off greating > great heat as it does and other times it snaps and I spend an hour > nervously drilling hoping not to ruin the threads. More confusion. If anything snaps it'll be the chuck body and nervousness will instantly be replaced by other emotions. > Another thing I should mention with the soaking solvent idea. Most people > highly under rate the idea of just giving it an occasional tap with a > mallet or hammer. This just helps the solvent/lubricant into the deep rust. I'm a big fan of whacking stuff. I used to troubleshoot electronics this way. A friend tells of an old man he knew with a seized car engine who would go out every morning and rock the wheel back and forth (presumably up on blocks) a couple times. A few years later the crank was freed. > Good luck. This makes me wonder if there is anything that might chemically > dissolve rust but not the metal. That would seem ideal to your problem. Electro-chemical (zapping) has been suggested. I have the washing soda in hand and will scour the thrift stores tomorrow for a charger. Cheers, Kyle Accardi who is happy for the winner of this tasty Record #050, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3278674632&category=13874 and didn't bid 'cause the shipping to the US was approx 3x the winning price. ---- Start of Message 130887 (thread 50482) ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-03-18 17:34:06 Subject: Re: Stuck Chuck Free at last! Zapped the business end for 5 or 6 hours @ 2A. Rinsed with water and loaded up again with wd-40. Took five minutes of hammering (soft face) on the bow with the big steel wrench in the chuck body, but it finally gave up and decided to ratchet again. Was even able to tap out the chuck body out and give everything a good cleaning. (I did wirebrush the ratchet splines, shhh). Some axle grease, some light oil. Hello Bob. Only casualty was the handle which split in two places. Probably while holding onto it during the hammer blows. It's still in one piece and should glue okay. Thanks for all the suggestions, especially the ones that pushed me to set up a zap tank, now onto some saws. Cheers, Kyle Accardi ++++ End of thread 50482 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50483 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130417 (thread 50483) ---- From: mimulus@p... Date: 2004-03-09 17:05:35 Subject: Numbered and lettered Drill bit Folks, I scored about 15 minutes late saturday afternoon and spent it at a garage sale. Picked up a tacklebox full of drill bits -- 3 expansion bits, a countersink rose, and a slough of twist bits. Normal stuff, except for a couple of Morse Machine Company drill bit holders dated 1906 -- one for fractional sizes, one for numbered. No lettered bit holder. Can anyone elucidate the purpose/history of lettered and numbered drill bits? I think i got a handle on the fractional sizes. cur ---- Start of Message 130422 (thread 50483) ---- From: "Michael A. Lietzow" Date: 2004-03-09 17:07:21 Subject: Re: Numbered and lettered Drill bit GGs, cur asked about the origin of different twist drill sizing systems. I don't have an answer but request that responses be posted to the List (as opposed to private replies) since I've often wondered about the same thing. Cheers, Mike in unseasonably HOT! San Diego County ---- Start of Message 130454 (thread 50483) ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 2004-03-10 09:26:37 Subject: Re: Numbered and lettered Drill bit Hi, All The advantage of the numbered and lettered drill bits is that they are spaced closer together in sizes than the ones in fractional inches. If you need a hole just sligthtly bigger or smaller than 1/4", you can find those sizes in the numbered drills. Trevor ---- Start of Message 130491 (thread 50483) ---- From: "Christopher Biggs" Date: 2004-03-11 15:52:48 Subject: Re: Numbered and lettered Drill bit mimulus@p... moved upon the face of the 'Net and spake thusly: > Can anyone elucidate the purpose/history of lettered and numbered drill > bits? I think i got a handle on the fractional sizes. The number- and letter-series drill bits are special purpose bits related to the standard (hah) US machine screw sizes. They are the tap drill sizes for common US threads, and also the correct oversize bits for "close fit" and "free fit" on those threads. Example here: http://www.offroaders.com/info/tech-corner/taps-drills.htm --cjb ---- Start of Message 130518 (thread 50483) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-11 12:22:38 Subject: Re: Numbered and lettered Drill bit Ditto on Mike's thought. I seem to learn the most here from the conversations I don't even post in. Something to do with listening better when the mouth is shut, maybe? > [Original Message] > From: Michael A. Lietzow > GGs, > > cur asked about the origin of different twist drill sizing systems. I > don't have an answer but request that responses be posted to the List (as > opposed to private replies) since I've often wondered about the same > thing. ++++ End of thread 50483 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50484 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130418 (thread 50484) ---- From: tomthornton Date: 2004-03-09 20:11:08 Subject: wierd tool hot water bottle Have been nursing a wife with pneumonia, now trying to heal the intestines after the anti bodies killed the pneumonia & good bacteria as well. Cat scan accident caused large swelling in arm. Need hot water bottle I found the old one and decided I'd just heat it in the radar range. Seems to work fine but am I rotting the rubber as well ? Also was wondering, we have the plastic bottles of blue something we get cold for use in the summer cooler. Could I heat them as well or will they blow up ?? weird I know but you may be wondering the same thing some day -- Tom Thornton Cincinnati #3, Morristown N.J. USA Collector of old tools, specializing in Hand Cranked Grindstones ---- Start of Message 130431 (thread 50484) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-09 23:51:02 Subject: RE: wierd tool hot water bottle > From: tomthornton > Have been nursing a wife with pneumonia, now trying to heal > the intestines after the anti bodies killed the pneumonia & good > bacteria as well. Cat scan accident caused large swelling in arm. Yogurt is great to replenish the good bacteria, as is buttermilk. Some of the things like oatmeal and grains are known to encourage the good bacteria growth. There's more to old grandma's "You need your roughage" line than meets the eye. The science is backing it up and proving it good in ways people probably never imagined. > Also was wondering, we have the plastic bottles of blue something we > get cold for use in the summer cooler. Could I heat them as > well or will they blow up ?? Besides blowing up the issue is that some of those plastics are not meant to be heated. Which is why they say never reheat those deli containers and so forth. Apparently they give off some bad chemicals if they do. Better than a hot water bottle is to head down to your local drug store and buy a heating pad. The three heat selections are pretty handy for comfort and you will never have to be running back and forth refilling water. I would think that alone would be worth the price. I've got one that has a removable foam type pad that can be drenched in water, squeezed out, and put back under the outside covering for moist heat. Good luck. Healing up from any illness is no fun. I have had eight operations myself. ++++ End of thread 50484 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50485 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130420 (thread 50485) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-10 01:31:17 Subject: Banner Old Tool Days Boxes have been arriving at my door. Got a mixed bag of auger bits including to adjustables today, along with a Champion saw jointer. A couple folding rules and a #77(?) marking gauge over the weekend. Got to try out my #80 Scraper today along with a shave I got last week. Both sharpened up nicely. Gotta get to work on the 12 1/2 scraper and those augers need some edge work. What should I use to sharpen them. I've got saw files and bastard single cut, but that one is too big. They look like they mostly need touching up, no nicks or anything. I've got a couple narrow stones. My first brace and bits, so I'm sorta at a loss. Jointed a D-95 I got for a song and cleaned up some, and started fileing the teeth, but LOML was acting like she wanted some time. ---- Start of Message 130421 (thread 50485) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-10 01:38:54 Subject: re: Banner Old Tool Days Oh, and best of all, my split nut Disston back saw came in Friday. Its real purty. ---- Start of Message 130424 (thread 50485) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-03-09 18:30:57 Subject: Re: Banner Old Tool Days On 10 Mar 2004 at 1:31, Jerry Palmer wrote: > Got to try out my #80 Scraper today along with a shave I got last > week. Both sharpened up nicely. Gotta get to work on the 12 1/2 > scraper and those augers need some edge work. What should I use to > sharpen them. I've got saw files and bastard single cut, but that one > is too big. They look like they mostly need touching up, no nicks or anything. I've got a couple narrow stones. My first brace and bits, so I'm sorta at a loss. You need an auger bit file, specifically made for this job and with safe edges so that the rest of the bit won't be damaged by sharpening. Here's a source: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page =32954&category=1,43072,43089 -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 130425 (thread 50485) ---- From: "Pete Bergstrom" Date: 2004-03-09 20:35:05 Subject: Re: Banner Old Tool Days "Jerry Palmer" wrote: > .. those augers need some edge work. What should I use to sharpen them. I've got saw files and bastard single cut, but that one is too big. They look like they mostly need touching up, no nicks or anything. I've got a couple narrow stones. My first brace and bits, so I'm sorta at a loss. There are special files for sharpening augur bits. I don't know where you're located, but in St. Paul, Minnesota, you can pick them up at 7 Corners Hardware downtown for ~$10-12 each. They also do mail order. I think I've also seen them for sale in Highland Hardware's catalog. Pete ---- Start of Message 130426 (thread 50485) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-10 02:57:53 Subject: Re: Banner Old Tool Days Thanks folks. The pic did it for me. Got an old fashioned hardware store nearby that has stuff you can't find at the big box stores. I think I've seen those there. ++++ End of thread 50485 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50486 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130427 (thread 50486) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-09 22:00:17 Subject: Lions, Samsons and Bears Hello, Going with the current brace theme...some braces Left - Millers falls with "Lion" Chuck Middle - PS & W with "Samson" Chuck Right - Stanley's version, my go to brace. http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=396 all good ratcheting users for both round and tanged bits. Hey?! where'd everyone go??????????????? sorry, no saws here A close up of the look alike chuck shells http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=397 Later jonathan ---- Start of Message 130430 (thread 50486) ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-03-09 19:51:40 Subject: Re: Lions, Samsons and Bears Thanks, Johathan. That's been very helpful. I've been hearing about these different chucks but wasn't sure how to identify what they look like. Now I know. Thanks! Old tools! Yeah! AAAndrew Liking old tools in Durham, North Carolina --- Jonathan Peck wrote: > Hello, > > Going with the current brace theme...some braces > Left - Millers falls with "Lion" Chuck > Middle - PS & W with "Samson" Chuck > Right - Stanley's version, my go to brace. > http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=396 > all good ratcheting users for both round and tanged > bits. Hey?! where'd everyone > go??????????????? sorry, no saws here > > A close up of the look alike chuck shells > http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=397 > > Later > jonathan > > > > > Archive: > http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web > interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 50486 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50487 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130428 (thread 50487) ---- From: "Greg Peters" Date: 2004-03-10 02:40:32 Subject: A gloat, and some advice So...I happen to bid on a few harmless saws (and I have read, nearly memorized 'Daddy has a saw problem') on some well known auction site http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3276919472 When I ask the seller (AFTER I've won the saws)--what do the 3 Disston medallions say (Disston USA, Disston Philly or H Disston and Sons. His response-- Disston USA Disston USA Disston Philad For $8, I'm thinking I got exactly what I paid for.... So imagine my surprise when one of the medallions was not just Disston Philad, but... H Disston Philad, and it was an eagle (the largest saw in the bunch--a 28" rip saw, 4 TPI) Erik's work places it in the late 1840/50's. Now what? I'd like to restore it to "working condition", though not actually use it. The blade peeks out from underneath a dense protective layer of rust, which I figure I can remove with 45,000 grit sandpaper and 10 years of sanding. The handle is pretty dry, though (strangely) no checks are visible on the handle. Questions for the Galloterrati.... Sand the blade smooth (raise the stamp?--I can't even see that yet)? Sand, Oil and Shellac the handle? (I've had good luck with this sort of restoration before--1870's Disston Rip saws) Sharpen the blade? The teeth are pretty consistent, semi-sharp; though need jointing and a consistent depth--in all, not much work. Polish brass split screws? Heck, I haven't even made the driver for these screws yet. Where is the line drawn? Erik? Pete (I'll get to you on the files soon)? Al Perrault? Sandy? I'd normally think a glaot would make you walk a bit taller, but now I sort of cringe in fear that I'd do something wrong.... On the boards or off, responses are appreciated Greg ---- Start of Message 130439 (thread 50487) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-10 13:15:09 Subject: re: A gloat, and some advice >I'd normally think a glaot would make you walk a bit taller, but >now I >sort of cringe in fear that I'd do something wrong.... Guess there's a flip side to every coin. What a steal. I won't pretend to know what to tell you to do, and hope that the responses come on here as I recently got a much later split nut back saw that I will probably put in a display case or something. No rust on this one when I got it, but the patina is pretty dark. ---- Start of Message 130447 (thread 50487) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-10 06:49:32 Subject: Re: A gloat, and some advice I have been playing around with cleaning medallions, and I have come to this for an answer. Get a soft brass wire brush from Horror Frate or other supplier. Get some good, high quality metal polish, and use the brush with the polish in a fairly gentle motion to clean the brass medallion. (Medallion removed from handle) This will, in time, remove the crud and leave a clean medallion. I don't think there is much if any wear inflicted on the medallion this way. You can stop at any point along the way and check your progress. If you like what you see, stop. It doesn't have to be totally clean. But even if you do clean it all the way, in a year or so the oxidation will return and it won't look all brand new after that. For the handle, first try fine steel wool followed by wax. If that isn't good enough, the other options are still open. On Tuesday, March 9, 2004, at 06:40 PM, Greg Peters wrote: > So...I happen to bid on a few harmless saws (and I have read, nearly > memorized 'Daddy has a saw problem') on some well known auction site > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3276919472 > > When I ask the seller (AFTER I've won the saws)--what do the 3 Disston > medallions say (Disston USA, Disston Philly or H Disston and Sons. > His response-- > > Disston USA > Disston USA > Disston Philad > > For $8, I'm thinking I got exactly what I paid for.... > > So imagine my surprise when one of the medallions was not just Disston > Philad, but... > > H Disston Philad, and it was an eagle > > (the largest saw in the bunch--a 28" rip saw, 4 TPI) > > Erik's work places it in the late 1840/50's. > > Now what? I'd like to restore it to "working condition", though not > actually use it. The blade peeks out from underneath a dense > protective layer of rust, which I figure I can remove with 45,000 grit > sandpaper and 10 years of sanding. The handle is pretty dry, though > (strangely) no checks are visible on the handle. > > Questions for the Galloterrati.... > > Sand the blade smooth (raise the stamp?--I can't even see that yet)? > > Sand, Oil and Shellac the handle? (I've had good luck with this sort > of restoration before--1870's Disston Rip saws) > > Sharpen the blade? The teeth are pretty consistent, semi-sharp; > though need jointing and a consistent depth--in all, not much work. > > Polish brass split screws? Heck, I haven't even made the driver for > these screws yet. > > Where is the line drawn? Erik? Pete (I'll get to you on the files > soon)? Al Perrault? Sandy? > > I'd normally think a glaot would make you walk a bit taller, but now I > sort of cringe in fear that I'd do something wrong.... > > On the boards or off, responses are appreciated > > Greg > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 130463 (thread 50487) ---- From: "David Clapp" Date: 2004-03-10 10:25:27 Subject: Re: A gloat, and some advice Greg asked, among other things: >>Polish brass split screws? Heck, I haven't even made the driver for these >>screws yet. I'd think twice before removing the real old brass split screws. It's easy to break the screw (DAMHIKT) and both the head and nut were draw filed flush to the handle originally, making a nice refit pretty difficult. For more recent (non-split) nuts and screws, I chuck 'em in an eggbeater and spin 'em in some Neverdull wadding; kind of a lazy way to do it, but it works ok on the medallion too. Best Regards, David Clapp IL _________________________________________________________________ Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage – 4 plans to choose from! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ ++++ End of thread 50487 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50488 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130429 (thread 50488) ---- From: Date: 2004-03-09 22:38:46 Subject: More What is Its? It has been very interesting hearing stories about my previous tools 'what is it'. I want to thank everyone again for being so helpful!!! Any idea what kind of hammer this is? www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060338.JPG This hatchet looks forged, any idea what kind or vintage? www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060342.JPG Thanks again so much!!! Doug Piper ---- Start of Message 130458 (thread 50488) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-10 10:40:22 Subject: Re: More What is Its? Hi Doug & All, Doug's hammer sort of looks like a shoemaker type I used to have, but the end of the "peen" seems a bit different. Still might be a variation. The hatchet looks like the victim of a disaster; it can't have been made that way can it? Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130469 (thread 50488) ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 2004-03-10 13:24:34 Subject: Re: More What is Its? At 10:38 PM 3/9/04, doug@h... wrote: >It has been very interesting hearing stories about my previous tools 'what >is it'. I want to thank everyone again for being so helpful!!! > >Any idea what kind of hammer this is? >www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060338.JPG Auto Body Hammer >This hatchet looks forged, any idea what kind or vintage? >www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060342.JPG I believe, not certain, that is a product of Butt Ugly Forge..someone body did a very strange repair job on that guy Tony Olde River Hard Goods 350 West Catawissa Street Nesquehoning PA 18240 570-669-9421 The best old tool store in Pennsylvania! http://www.oldetoolshop.com ---- Start of Message 130474 (thread 50488) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-10 17:21:00 Subject: Re: More What is Its? >>This hatchet looks forged, any idea what kind or vintage? >>www.hyperpiper.com/aw2k/aw2k/P3060342.JPG > >I believe, not certain, that is a product of Butt Ugly Forge..someone body >did a very strange repair job on that guy It looks to me like a tripod. Someone wanted the hatchet to stand steady, cutting edge up. Perhaps to chop something off to length ? Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ++++ End of thread 50488 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50489 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130432 (thread 50489) ---- From: "Charlike Calarco" Date: 2004-03-10 05:57:22 Subject: Instrument maker's clamps I have come into possession of a set of six (2 small x 2 spindle; 2 medium x 2 spindle and 2 large x 3 spindle)instrument maker's clamps - the lady's great grandfather was a violin maker and she believes they were used for that purpose. They are all wood with wooden screws, quite dainty and elegant in beech, I believe; quite old and in very good shape with only a couple of small chips out of the wooden threads on two of the spindles. She is hoping to sell them and asked my advice as I am the only fine woodworker she knows. I will never use them in my woodworking, and have suggested they are best suited to be used by a traditional violin maker. To say the least, such people are scarce in my neck of the woods, but I am hoping there may be someone instrument maker out there who can actually USE a set like this and who may be interested, rather than just put them on a certain auction service. Would anyone be interested? ++++ End of thread 50489 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50490 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130436 (thread 50490) ---- From: "Walt Cheever" Date: 2004-03-10 05:56:41 Subject: Shiney does pay Bruce, I just finished cleaning up an old mortise gauge, rosewood and brass. I found that water, dishsoap, a green 3M pad and elbow grease gave me great control over just how much I affected the surface. The brass slowly moved from "grunge" to antique brass with the really nice dark/highlight contrasts. Next time I'm going to try using one of the wood finish cleaner mixes and see if the process works a bit faster but still controllable. Walt Cheever Who's joyful in Minnesota because its warm enough to use the shop, never mind the wuthering wind. ---- Start of Message 130500 (thread 50490) ---- From: "Gary Katsanis" Date: 2004-03-11 10:06:32 Subject: Re: Shiney does pay I saw a suggestion to use D&L hand cleaner on dirty wood and tarnished brass. It sounded wierd but I tried it and it works fairly well, although things smell for a while. I like it for cleaning brass in place. We have brass door knobs in the downstairs part of our house, and it was hard to use the normal brass cleaners without staining the wood. I didn't have the problem with D&L. Gary K Close to Buffalo NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walt Cheever" To: "oldtools" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 6:56 AM Subject: [oldtools] Shiney does pay > Bruce, > > I just finished cleaning up an old mortise gauge, rosewood and brass. I > found that water, dishsoap, a green 3M pad and elbow grease gave me great > control over just how much I affected the surface. The brass slowly moved > from "grunge" to antique brass with the really nice dark/highlight > contrasts. > > Next time I'm going to try using one of the wood finish cleaner mixes and > see if the process works a bit faster but still controllable. > > Walt Cheever > > Who's joyful in Minnesota because its warm enough to use the shop, never > mind the wuthering wind. > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ++++ End of thread 50490 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50491 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130437 (thread 50491) ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-03-10 07:10:45 Subject: Administrivia - WAS: wierd tool hot water bottle Answers to this question should go directly to Tom's email, not to the list in general. Listmoms - Ralph & Steve ++++ End of thread 50491 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50492 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130440 (thread 50492) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 2004-03-10 08:23:59 Subject: A question - Using PayPal to pay for old tools Galoots, I like using PayPal when I buy old tools on eBay. But, I have not become "Verified" because they want to access my bank account. Because I spent a career in IT (computers, Jeff) working on a plethora of security issues in data communications, I do not and never will trust computers. I know too much about the problems. Indeed, having studied how $30 million disappeared in less than 100 milliseconds during a nation to nation funds transfer I have accepted only a single vendor's IT automated withdrawal from my bank accounts as a way of protecting my assets. What I don't know is the protection solutions vendors such as PayPal use today to protect their customers from technical issues that cannot ever be resolved. Can someone explain how PayPal actually withdraws funds from a bank account and what protections they have against errors, fraud and theft of account access numbers? For example, if PayPal does an automatic withdrawal and someone steals the access codes, how am I protected and refunded the amount taken? If I have two vendors accessing the account, how can I determine which one "gave away the keys"? *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * *********************************************** ---- Start of Message 130442 (thread 50492) ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-03-10 08:47:02 Subject: Re: A question - Using PayPal to pay for old tools Karl asked: > What I don't know is the protection solutions vendors such as PayPal use > today to protect their customers from technical issues that cannot ever be > resolved. Can someone explain how PayPal actually withdraws funds from a > bank account and what protections they have against errors, fraud and theft > of account access numbers? For example, if PayPal does an automatic > withdrawal and someone steals the access codes, how am I protected and > refunded the amount taken? If I have two vendors accessing the account, > how can I determine which one "gave away the keys"? I don't know the answer Karl, but I know it is an outstanding question! I won't get verified by Paypal either, because there is no reason that they need access to my account. They can process everything through the credit card # I gave them. Thanks for raising the issue Karl! Chris Berger In sunny but cool West Lafayette, IN ---- Start of Message 130452 (thread 50492) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-10 07:15:48 Subject: Re: A question - Using PayPal to pay for old tools At the risk of irritating the list moms, I will offer this small bit of advice: Create a special bank account which has only a small amount of money in it. You can always add to that account if need be. Give PayPal the number of that account. This way you limit your exposure and you can still be a Verified member. This was my solution. It works for me. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ++++ End of thread 50492 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50493 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130441 (thread 50493) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 2004-03-10 08:31:34 Subject: Using Personal checks to buy old tools Galoots, One reason I prefer a personal check when I buy old tools, even though I use PayPal (unverified) often, is the added "nail'em" protection mailing a check provides. Sometimes I read the feedback of the seller and get bad vibes, but really want to bid on the item. If I pay with a check, it is a U.S Postal Service transaction. On one occasion, very early in eBay's life, I used the USPS Postal Inspectors to help retrieve my money. There are circumstances where they won't help, but it is even tougher getting the U.S. Secret Service involved in a $100 PayPal (banking, credit card) issue. *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * *********************************************** ---- Start of Message 130446 (thread 50493) ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-03-10 08:48:44 Subject: Re: Using Personal checks to buy old tools At 8:31 AM -0500 3/10/04, Karl W. Sanger wrote: >Galoots, > One reason I prefer a personal check when I buy old tools, >even though I use PayPal (unverified) often, is the added "nail'em" >protection mailing a check provides. Sometimes I read the feedback >of the seller and get bad vibes, but really want to bid on the item. >If I pay with a check, it is a U.S Postal Service transaction. On >one occasion, very early in eBay's life, I used the USPS Postal >Inspectors to help retrieve my money. There are circumstances where >they won't help, but it is even tougher getting the U.S. Secret >Service involved in a $100 PayPal (banking, credit card) issue. GG Karl gives us very good advice here about our new tool - EID (Electronic information dissemination). My own experience is a direct postal miscommunication with a new bank. Someone has taken two ATM cards of mine that will give them access to one of my personal accounts. The theft happened between the bank and my address and I can only hope the thief is too low-tec to find the software needed to learn my low security PIN. ID theft is a problem out there so use all cautions unless your money does grow on trees. It seems that when you get comfortable with an honest group like this one, you can extrapolate that trust to groups vaguely associated with the same product focus. It is likely that there are pirates sailing in the *Bay. This all gives more reasons for trading and purchasing within the group and at hands on tool swap meets. Nothing like meeting another Galoot face to face and buying from them a cared for genuine article. I got to fondle a #42 (Millers pat. plow plane Jeff) that was in MINT condition for an embarrassingly long time until it's kind owner carefully extracted it from my frozen grasp. He was a collector and I could not afford the plow, but I did hold it. *Bay only gives you pictures (bad ones) and charges hidden fees (ouch). The advantage of increased access to old tools is tangible but I highly recommend mingling with like minded rust divers face to face basking in the intangible joys of a shared illusion ;-) Rex ++++ End of thread 50493 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50494 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130444 (thread 50494) ---- From: "Lamar keeney" Date: 2004-03-10 09:02:33 Subject: Bio and re: numbered lettered drill birs Hope this gets trough, i'm not as coputer savy as i would like to be.Been lurking under porch for about a year, finaly thinking i got this thing figuered out enough to intraduce myself.(Some of my spelling is lacking also, but has greatly imprved. I'm the only person who has locked up spell-check) My name is Lamar Keeney now reciding in the Wilmington NC area.Age:can't get any farther on the back side forty, Ocupation:Semi-retired carpenter after twenty three years(meaning"Ain't got no money but damn shure got it made") As for this "galoot thing" the first time a got acused of it was when i drug out a brace and bit on a job sight in this age of tailed tools.After a generous offer to fine tune the young mans attitude he most respectively explained hiself. Didn't know we had a classification,let alone as many peaple that still shared an interest in the tools i learned with and still use. Finding this web sight has been the most interesting and enjoyable thing about this #!%& computer I've found. Looking forward comunicating and being of help when i can. RE:As for the drill bit lettery and number system.Having been in the machinenist program before returning to carpentry. The use of them was to allow for minor dia. of threads of different classes of fits,also tolerace of holes for bolts.This also applied to pre-drillng of holes for reams and such. Hope this will help Lamar _________________________________________________________________ Fast. Reliable. Get MSN 9 Dial-up - 3 months for the price of 1! (Limited-time Offer) http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ ---- Start of Message 130453 (thread 50494) ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-03-10 09:20:48 Subject: Re: Bio and re: numbered lettered drill birs At 9:02 AM -0500 3/10/04, Lamar keeney wrote: > Hope this gets trough, i'm not as coputer savy as i would like >to be.Been lurking under porch for >about a year, finaly thinking i got this thing figuered out enough >to intraduce myself.(Some of my spelling is lacking also, but has >greatly imprved. I'm the only person who has locked up spell-check) > My name is Lamar Keeney now reciding in the Wilmington NC >area.Age:can't get any farther on the back side forty, >Ocupation:Semi-retired carpenter after twenty three >years(meaning"Ain't got no money but damn shure got it made") > Welcome aboard Lamar, There are a lot of IT guys on this porch and I am sure that they can assist you with computer issues. I also have spelling problems, but none of the English language elitists have scratched me with sardonic correction barbs when I have made contributions to the list. What old tools do you like best (other than your braces)? -Rex ---- Start of Message 130455 (thread 50494) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-10 07:19:47 Subject: Re: Bio and re: numbered lettered drill birs I have been meaning to reply to the inquiry about letter, number and fractional drills, the whys and wherefores thereof. A newbie beat me to it. Welcome aboard, Lamar. You are gonna love it here. On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 06:02 AM, Lamar keeney wrote: > > RE:As for the drill bit lettery and number system.Having been in the > machinenist program before returning to carpentry. The use of them was > to allow for minor dia. of threads of different classes of fits,also > tolerace of holes for bolts.This also applied to pre-drillng of holes > for reams and such. ++++ End of thread 50494 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50495 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130445 (thread 50495) ---- From: "Tony Zaffuto" Date: 2004-03-10 09:23:10 Subject: Lamar Keeny Bio Welcome (from fellow newbie and longtime lurker), I'm from NW PA and we vacation in your area each summer (have been for the past ten years). We stay at Topsail Island and visit Wilmington several times for the week or so we are there. I have visited a number of antique stores however, I have not really found any rust or patina worth dragging home! Any suggestions on rust hunting? The other question, I started out in life as a carpenter, migrated into my own manufacturing business, but have become (or rather attempting to become) adept at furniture and cabinetmaking. I can't stand vacations! For the time we are in Topsail, DO YOU NEED SUMMER HELP? I'll pay you! ++++ End of thread 50495 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50496 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130448 (thread 50496) ---- From: "Kerry Batdorf" Date: 2004-03-10 14:44:07 Subject: IT/Japanese Saw Review I'm wondering if anyone has experience with and could comment on where the Mitsukawa Dozuki Rip saw from (Misugi Designs, HIDA Tools) fits in the comparison with those evaluated in IT Saw Review by Dave Burnard. There may be more than one Mitsukawa Dozuki Rip type saw. HIDA describes one with 13 TPI(graduated?). MISUGI Designs Kayoko Kuroiwa says her Mitsukawa RIP Dozuki has 20-18(graduated)TPI, but, I wonder if these are correct numbers. ++++ End of thread 50496 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50497 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130449 (thread 50497) ---- From: Roger Rosner Date: 2004-03-10 10:05:30 Subject: straightening handsaws My archive searching is not working out this morning... I have two Disston handsaws that have, shall we say, a gentle curve to them. I have tried bending them over my knee in the opposite direction, but the curve stubbornly persists. Am I just being a chicken about bending enough? Or is there some other technique I should use? Thanks all. Roger ---- Start of Message 130464 (thread 50497) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-10 08:47:38 Subject: Re: straightening handsaws --- Roger Rosner wrote: I have two Disston handsaws that have, shall we say, a gentle curve to them. I have tried bending them over my knee in the opposite direction, but the curve stubbornly persists. Am I just being a chicken about bending enough? Or is there some other technique I should use? Thanks all. Roger HI Roger: A long-time member of the PNTC, one Dennett Bryson, enjoys to take one or another of his many mint and priceless Disston handsaws and tuck the point into the handle in front of large crowds. This kind of treatment (which most any quality handsaw can withstand, IINM) is insufficient to leave any bend in the blade. In a nutshell, it's pretty hard to damage a blade by bending it in your hands. In my experience, this kind of treatment will *remove* gentle curves, if applied with specific emphasis. Kinks, usually installed in dull or unset blades *during* sawing, are another kettle of fish.. gluck widdat; GAM in Seattle ===== ____________________________________________________________ Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. D. D. Eisenhower ____________________________________________________________ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130476 (thread 50497) ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-03-10 19:20:55 Subject: Re: straightening handsaws Roger asked...." > I have two Disston handsaws that have, shall we say, a gentle curve to > them. I have tried bending them over my knee in the opposite direction, > but the curve stubbornly persists. Am I just being a chicken about > bending enough? Or is there some other technique I should use? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- I straighten a good many saws and if you can get out of bed in the morning you can do it. First forget that stuff about bending saws over your knees to straighten them, think I read that in some book once too, tried it and used up about a month allotment of cuss words trying to get it to work.Maybe it works for saws in books but in real life I never could get it to do anything much and when you think about how a good saw will bend really far and spring back you can see why it doesn't.What you need to do is get a small hammer , about 4 or 5 oz. not all that important really I don't think.You do want one that has a good clean face that isn't rough or pitted. What you are going to do is lay your saw on a hard surface with the "Rise" up. In other words if the saw bends to the right away from the side with the etch you want to lay it down with the etch up.I have a couple original saw makers anvil which were used for this but they are on the bottom of my stack of Anvils so I use a 300 lb.Fisher Anvil I have out in the shop, but probably about any flat piece of steel would work,[Table saw table?]. What you want to do is tap the side over where the bend is with multiple light taps.What this does is spread the steel out straitening the saw.Tap some and sight down the blade and then tap some more till straight.Guess if you are a particular type of guy you could mark the blade with some chalk where to tap....I'm not like that I just look at it and get working. I have found out if you sort of pull up on the handle as you tap the blade it works better. Thing to do is to get a bent junk saws and try it out and you will get the hang of it pretty fast and find it is very easy. Most saws can be straightened in less then 5 min. "S' bent ones can be harder but still not that hard.Now kinked saws are another thing and can be impossible to fix 100%. Backs saws that are bent are a different story with them I normally have to drive the back up or down to take care of it, sometimes even taking the back off and putting it back on......Once you learn how to straighten a saw you never have to worry about passing up that otherwise good saw that is bent.Matter of fact the only reason I even check a saw to see if it straight anymore is so I can ask the seller when I pick up that real clean split nut No. 12... "You want $5 for this saw..why it's bent! ....take $3? " ---- Start of Message 130495 (thread 50497) ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-03-11 13:06:50 Subject: Re: straightening handsaws todd Hughes wrote: > What you need to do is get a > small hammer , about 4 or 5 oz. not all that important really I don't > think.You do want one that has a good clean face that isn't rough or pitted. What shape face (or, since I've never seen an actually-flat-faced hammer) *how* convex should the face be? BugBear ---- Start of Message 130502 (thread 50497) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-11 07:53:28 Subject: Re: straightening handsaws On Thursday, March 11, 2004, at 05:06 AM, bugbear wrote: > > What shape face (or, since I've never seen an actually-flat-faced > hammer) *how* convex should the face be? > Any ordinary hammer face which is not a ball peen will work. You shouldn't hit the saw hard enough to make a permanent mark on the blade. That is the point of calling for a "flat face hammer." Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130504 (thread 50497) ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-03-11 16:05:13 Subject: Re: straightening handsaws >>On Thursday, March 11, 2004, at 05:06 AM, bugbear wrote: >> >> What shape face (or, since I've never seen an actually-flat-faced >> hammer) *how* convex should the face be=3F >> and Jim added >Any ordinary hammer face which is not a ball peen will work. You >shouldn't hit the saw hard enough to make a permanent mark on the >blade. That is the point of calling for a "flat face hammer." They were known as planishing hammers, and in the garage trade at least, came in sets - I may be misremembering three, double ended, some square face to get in corners, most circular to avoid corners dinging in. some rounded for concave surfaces. always stored carefully to avoid the faces being marked. Mirror polished. Of course, in those days an Aston Martin replacement wing was supplied as a sheet of aluminium (aluminum (sp=3F) ) and you worked on it from there. ARW ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ++++ End of thread 50497 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50498 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130450 (thread 50498) ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-03-10 09:05:48 Subject: Casey & Co. ivory tip plow - info needed Greetings GG's, I am getting ready to restore what once was an ivory tipped Casey & Co. plow. A buddy got a small old chunk of cast off ivory on a trip to Africa which he has promised to me (old and legal). What would be very helpful would be if someone has a CAsey and Co. ivory tipped plow, and you would be willing to measure and describe the tips so I can duplicate them. Most that I have seen have had a little bead at the edge. A picture would be worth a thousand words and then some. THANKS IN ADVANCE for any help Cheers Tom ++++ End of thread 50498 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50499 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130451 (thread 50499) ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-03-10 09:08:10 Subject: Ivory turning - how to?? Getting set to duplicate ivory tips for a plow plane, and only having one little chunk of ivory to work with .... feeling anxious about screwing it up... never having machined ivory.. OK, you get the picture. WHat are the concerns / techniques? Any worry of overheating / burning? slow speed? high? polishing techniques? TIA as always TOM ---- Start of Message 130459 (thread 50499) ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-03-10 15:53:18 Subject: Re: Ivory turning - how to?? Tom asks about working Ivory - the real thing. . . >What are the concerns / techniques=3F >Any worry of overheating / burning=3F >slow speed=3F high=3F >polishing techniques=3F I was privileged to watch and converse with Bill Jones - now well in his eighties, who was turning ivory since youth. He still makes exquisite chess sets from old ivory - if you have the requisite =A35,000 or so (heading to USD 9000, Paddy ) Not ever anticipating having the material, I didn't ask much about specific technique, but it seems to me that he was using more of a scraping than a cutting action. Speed was - what - 'medium' Almost all his tools were home ground, on the basis that real men only ever bought thread chasers, and all the rest were home made. This would be consistent with light cuts - as thereby avoiding overheating and drawing the temper. I was surprised by his means of finishing. He mounted a pigtail in the spindle nose, and used a 6 inch stitched mop with a particular grade of compound, followed by a loose mop and a polishing compound. Both were white - and he explained at some length about preparation and care of the mops. i.e. reserved for use on ivory, and only with white compound. (there was more concerning the initial dressing etc) I have the manufacturers names somewhere - they were in Birmingham, but by the time I was tracking them down, they'd been bought and the warehouse moved. Bill of course, like so many of us, had bought mops and compounds years ago and still had a supply that would 'see him out' - if you need details give me a ping and I'll ferret in the files. Bon Chance! Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 130465 (thread 50499) ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-03-10 12:13:08 Subject: Re: Ivory turning - how to?? Tom asked about turning ivory: > Getting set to duplicate ivory tips for a plow plane, and only having > one little chunk of ivory to work with .... feeling anxious about > screwing it up... never having machined ivory.. > > OK, you get the picture. > WHat are the concerns / techniques? > Any worry of overheating / burning? > slow speed? high? > polishing techniques? I have turned ivory a few times. I employ a tailed apprentice to spin the ivory around and it is held by a modern 4 jaw scrolled chuck. However I use old turning tools and control them with my own hands.......I am hoping this qualifies as OT content or I am dog meat headed for the underside of the porch! In my experience, ivory is most akin to a dense, smooth hardwood such as maple, boxwood, apple (if straight grained) lemon, dogwood, etc. One could practice there. I also practiced on Tagua (sp?) nuts which I bought from Woodcraft long ago. (I think others carry them today). I have also bought legal, certified old ivory in pieces suitable for plow tips. I am much more confident when I know that I am not turning the "one and only" piece of stock.(At the moment I am forgetting the name of the guy I bought the ivory from. If anybody needs it, ping me and I will look it up. David W...? Ohio, I think. He is liscenced, legal, reliable, helpful and reasonable). To turn the ivory I use small shallow gouges sharpened as close to scary sharp as I can get them. I use old Buck Bros and Barton gouges mostly, but have also used modern gouges from time to time. Be sure to polish the incanal part of the gouge prior to sharpening. (This is equivalent to flattening and polishing the back of a chisel or plane iron). I grind on a fine white 120 grit stone, and then work my way to a hard Arkansas slip for final honing. I won't say I get them scary sharp: They won't shave the hairs on your arm, but they will lay flash open as smooth as a scalpel! I turn a hardwood block about 1 - 1.5" in diameter, about 3" long, and squared off the end (in the lathe). I also assure that the end of the ivory piece is square to its length, and then glue the ivory to the wood cylinder getting their centers as closely aligned as I can. (It helps to leave the wooden block chucked in the lathe, find and mark the center of the ivory, and place the center of the ivory against the point of the live center in the tail stock. Then run the tail stock up against the ivory cylinder to make contact with the wood cylinder.) When you are confident about centering, apply glue to the mating ends of the ivory and wood. I use yellow carpenter's glue, but I think epoxy or cyanoacrylic (thick) would work as well. Once the ivory is securely mounted to the block, you have the option of using the live center in the tail stock or not. I usually start with the tail stock engaged, and finish with only the wood cylinder held in the scroll chuck. I do all turning and polishing before I part the ivory off of the mounting block. I select the speed by feel, but probably around 1500 (+/-) rpm's for a small diameter cylinder of .75" - 1" or so diameter typically found on plow plane tips. Using your sharp 1/4" or 3/8" shallow gouge, take light cuts and keep the bevel rubbing. You should be getting fine smooth cuts, that need only a little finishing. I have heard that ivory dust is toxic (Don't know the facts of the matter, but I have heard this from several sources) so I am careful to keep a substantial dust collector running which filters down to three microns (or so the manufacturer claims). I have suffered no ill effects so far, but I don't work wit ivory every day either. As I mentioned, fine cuts, bevel rubbing and sharp gouges should give a good finish. (Little chance of burning or excessive burnishing if you take it easy.) If I need to do more finishing, I use wet/dry paper with water lubricant going up past 600 grit. Automotive rubbing compound and a final polish with tooth paste will get a very finely polished surface if that is what you are after. If you want an aged patina, use the freezer, a cup of hot tea and a lot of courage (it will check, satin and maybe crack). This last step is not for the faint of heart, and may require use of that backup piece of ivory you bought for a confidence builder! I checked my books (Moody, Smith I & II, Roberts I & II) and planes and I don't have a Casey & Co Ivory tip pattern. I don't have Don Rosebrook's book, so that is a source that you may want to check. Hope this is helpful. Chris Berger In sunny West Lafayette, In, where it is almost warm enough to get out the motorcycle and go for a ride! ---- Start of Message 130466 (thread 50499) ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-03-10 11:37:42 Subject: Re: Ivory turning - how to?? Chris B. wrote about his techniques and tools. HI Chris, Thanks for the very detailed reply.... my courage mounts (a bit) Good idea with the tagua nuts ... I have 3-4 and will practice. Excellent idea re. gluing the ivory to a substantial block of wood - reduce vibration - minimize waste almost altogether, and with the price of ivory...... mega imp. Always a good idea to tune up the tools ... the idea I always ignore till I'm turning .... screwing up, and have to shut down and go to the sharpening bench mid-project .... usually with a dig in my piece and cursing at self all around. Brian posted some links to MJD Casey & Co plows FS.... got a good idea of the profile, but would buy a nice single-malt Scotch for the guy who sends a close up with dimensions THANKS AGAIN! Tom ---- Start of Message 130473 (thread 50499) ---- From: "P J McBride" Date: 2004-03-11 09:06:18 Subject: RE: Ivory turning - how to?? Tom and GG's I have sent some pics to you on the side, but will repeat and add some of the ivory working hints here. I have worked ivory with hand tools many times, and once you do also, you will realise why there had to be an effort to stop its use. It is simply superb. Working in ivory is like putting down your brass and picking up gold!! Treat it like a dense wood, say ebony and boxwood, or a metal like brass. I have turned it freehand on a watchmaker's lathe, with tools ground for brass...speed didn't matter all that much...start slow and speed up. Use fine files, cross-cut jewellers bench files are fantastic, cut 2 or 4 are fine. Use needle files cut 2 to 6 are fine, and use them on the lathe if you like. Use wet and dry emery paper, go through the grit from say 400 to 1200. (I have gone to 4000 for a fine polish) Wrap the emery paper on a spindle or wooden stick with a profile of your choice for rubbing. Then use *white dialux* on a calico mop at slow speed on a large 6 inch mop, or high speed on a 3 inch mop. I have also rubbed the dialux on with soft leather. White dialux is universal, get it at a jewellery supply house, or Google for it. Hope this helps, any more questions just ask, Peter, in Melbourne, Aust where it is pointless making jewellery in ivory, for all the good reasons. www.petermcbride.com OK, you get the picture. WHat are the concerns / techniques? Any worry of overheating / burning? slow speed? high? polishing techniques? TIA as always TOM ---- Start of Message 130496 (thread 50499) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 2004-03-11 08:11:07 Subject: Re: Ivory turning - how to?? Galoots, This thread started because of a Galoot's need to replace, err, ah, that is "conserve" missing ivory tips on a plow plane. I've enjoyed the responses on turning techniques for ivory. A few years back a friend and employee at the U.S.Department of State was arrested and fined over $60,00 for bringing his ivory collection he had maintained for years at posts overseas into the US. But, of more interest to me is how does one "age" the newly turned, snow white ivory so it looks like the old original tips? I suppose one would have to supply age cracks also - how? Oh, and the use of a couple of "mops" was mentioned for polishing the ivory. Is "mop" an Aussie term for buffing wheel? *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * *********************************************** ---- Start of Message 130498 (thread 50499) ---- From: "P J McBride" Date: 2004-03-12 00:45:32 Subject: RE: Ivory turning - how to?? Karl and GG's Yes...sorry, should insert the translation / explanation ( ) buffs or buffing wheels in the Americas I think, "mops" in GB and Aust. See here one on the spindle, and a few on the board in this picture. http://www.petermcbride.com/jewellery_tools/Polishing.jpg.JPG and the whole page of hand tools for fine metal work http://www.petermcbride.com/jewellery_tools/ My general rouge finishing buff / mop is unstitched calico. If I want to polish a flat surface I would use a hard felt disc first with a white compound on the felt, that will keep the corners sharp. don't know about making it look old...I'm usually asked how to make it look new again. Regards, Peter In Melbourne, Australia where time on woodwork and tools has taken a back seat to making a living...very sad. Date: 2004-03-11 09:38:55 Subject: Re: Ivory turning - how to?? Karl asked..... > >" But, of more interest to me is how does one "age" the newly turned, snow > white ivory so it looks like the old original tips? I suppose one would > have to supply age cracks also - how?..." > > *********************************************** Other then staining it with leather die or India ink to age ivory I don't have to much experience with aging Ivory.When using a stain I just wipe it on and then wipe right off leaving the stain in the cracks. then follow up with some brie wax.Have always heard that those foreign oriental fakers use Tea and bury them in horse manure, don't know I never had much luck with either material myself. I have aged up a good bit of bone and antler and with these materials I have had good luck with heating them Hot Hot and then plunging in some cold water. Do this a few times and small cracks will come out.Do it to much and BIG cracks will come out! Have also used a microwave but bigger chance of getting it looking too old and beat.I think with ivory most aging would call for just staining it and maybe a few dings artfully applied. I collect carved ivory and ivory handle knives and while some is damaged with age [?] cracks some old ivory esp. if it lived a careful life will not have any cracks so new uncracked ivory would be believable.....Todd ---- Start of Message 130515 (thread 50499) ---- From: "Foster, Jim" Date: 2004-03-11 11:00:15 Subject: RE: Ivory turning - how to?? I've heard them called mops here, and think that it might be more of a jewelry trade usage than geographic, but could sure be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time this hour ... B^) Jim Foster Minnesota >=20 > Karl and GG's > Yes...sorry, should insert the translation / explanation ( ) > buffs or buffing wheels in the Americas I think, "mops" in GB=20 > and Aust. > See here one on the spindle, and a few on the board in this picture. > http://www.petermcbride.com/jewellery_tools/Polishing.jpg.JPG > and the whole page of hand tools for fine metal work > http://www.petermcbride.com/jewellery_tools/ >=20 >=20 ++++ End of thread 50499 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50500 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130460 (thread 50500) ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-03-10 10:07:11 Subject: Stanley Transitional Smoother GG A friend who collects wrenches and has been in the antique business is expanding his interests into the wood working tools edge of the slope. He has asked me to give his bobsled a nudge through the gate. He called last night spewing the excited questions of a neophyte gold miner with a freshly discovered vain of gleaming yellow metal. Is it gold?... Is it real?... Is it worth anything?... Would you buy it? What is it? He described a small Stanley Transitional razee smoother. He said it was a #37 (13 inch wood bottom smoother Jeff). He described the lever cap, the iron, the frog all as having good jappaning, but the frame was some gleaming yellow metal!!! (heard this one before?). Now I know that some traders have cast chunks of old planes and tried to pass them off as "promotional" prototypes exclaiming that they are "very rare", but this casting looks authentic. Is there a chance that my friend has a Stanley retirement gift to a long time executive retiree or perhaps a salesman's demo plane. Did the mysterious Stanley company do some runs of brass castings for Transitional planes? Any help would be appreciated. Rex ++++ End of thread 50500 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50501 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130467 (thread 50501) ---- From: Brian Buckner Date: 2004-03-10 12:56:36 Subject: T-BAG Class Report - "Making a Marking Gauge" (with pictures) - LONG Galoots, Short version: Drove three hours south on Saturday to make a marking gauge with fellow Florida Galoots (known loosely as the "T-BAGS" - "Tampa Bay Area Galoots"). Long version: Our now annual T-Bag event happened this past Saturday at Galoot Gary Greenberg's shop in McIntosh Florida. This is about three hours south of Tallahassee so I got up early and made the drive to be at Gary's house by 9:00. Gary and his wife, Judy, have a wonderful place out in the central Florida countryside. Gary has a "shop in progress" that will be "killer" when completed. Great space and lots of natural light (and lot's of wood storage space - which I'll get to shortly!). Fellow Galoot and T-BAG founder David Sobel arrived shortly after me and we took the grand tour of Gary's place. Gary showed us around and then proceeded to unveil gloat after gloat! First was the set of craftsman tools that were being given to him by a friend. Lot's of cool things (traditional as well as tailed). For example, he showed us a beautiful old Lion miter trimmer in a really nice custom made fitted box. I hope my drool doesn't cause any deep corrosion problems. From the tool gloats Gary mercilessly shifted into shamless wood gloats! Gary has a very nice collection of wood that he's collected over the years mostly from a network of local sawyers that he's made contact with. Beautiful stuff! Cherry, Walnut, maple, cypress, you name it and he probably has an abundance of it. In fact Gary was kind enough to part with some nice big boards (16" wide) of camphor wood. This is something that I've been searching for some time with no luck. I recently shifted gears and have been looking for some camphor logs figuring I could saw my own lumber from them. Camphor wood is the material of choice for tool boxes or cabinets due to it natural rust and corrosion inhibiting properties. I plan to make the drawers for my future work bench (rebuild) from it. After the tour and gloats we jumped into some "show and tell". David demonstrated a couple of very cool circular shaves that he has been making lately. I was impressed to say the least! The body of theses shaves is a 1" cylinder. To demonstrate how tight of a radius they could work David drilled a 1" hole in some scape Walnut and then ripped the board in two right through the hole. He then proceeded to work the inside curve with his circular shave. I was amazed at how well it worked! I really think David is on to something here as this shave worked much better and was easier to control than my original Miller Falls #1 "cigar shave". This is definitely something that is on my list of tools to make! http://home.earthlink.net/~bbuckner/Shaves01.jpg After all of our "show boating" we finally got down to work making our marking gauges. Since all of us have been quite busy we were not very well prepared. Previously I had dug up several articles on different styles of marking gauges and panel gauges that I thought would work well for the class but hadn't had the time to actually build one. So we had to "wing it". The one design that seemed to appeal to everyone was from a picture I had found of a marking gauge where the method of adjustment was based on a threaded stem. The fence has a round disk with a threaded hole in it's center that allowed it to ride up and down the threaded stem of the gauge. A third threaded "locking nut" being added to lock the fence once the proper setting was made. Pretty easy in design and seemingly easy to make. http://home.earthlink.net/~bbuckner/GaugeThreaded01.jpg http://home.earthlink.net/~bbuckner/GaugeThreaded01.jpg I had brought along some seasoned dogwood to use for the gauges. Dogwood is a wonderful wood to use for anything that sees any amount of wear. It has the property of burnishing itself quite smooth in use (I've used it to make wooded planes and it works quite well for that purpose). Being very fine grained it took to threading wonderfully! Nice crisp, pointed threads with almost no breakout. Once we got David's thread box tuned up to cut a thread that gave just a hint of resistance we were ready to proceed. First the threads were cut in the stems that I had turned the day before. Next we bored holes in both the material for the fence as well as some thicker stock for the locking nut. We got to use David's spiffy "Buck Rogers" brace and a bit from his very cool boxed set of Irwin augers. Using the brace made me remember it's former owner, Galoot-maximus Paul Radovanic who passed away a few years ago. I'm sure many of you remember Paul as one of the most friendly and helpful list members (and he was even more so in person!). It was Paul that was the original organizer (with David) of the T-BAGS. I often think of Paul - especially when we have one of our get-togethers. I'm sure he's right there with us making shavings if only in spirit! Once all of the threading and tapping was complete we fired up Gary's lathe to turn everything true. I brought a chuck and we used a piece of threaded stem as a mandrel to hold the whole deal while we turned it. Each of us turned our locking nut a bit different to add our own personal touch (the real beauty of building your own tools!). I kept thinking my design looked a bit familiar and then it hit me - it looks like the nut on my old toted plow plane! So much for an original design. Last step was to add the scribing pin. I had also brought some old Gramophone needles which make good pins since they are very hard and durable. Gary and I used these while David made a "cutting pin" (filed to a knife edge) from some stainless piano wire. Both worked great. That pretty much wrapped it up. Here is a shot of the three of us with our respective gauges sitting in one of the doors to Gary's shop: http://home.earthlink.net/~bbuckner/Groupshot.jpg That's Gary on the right, David on the left (the fat, ugly guy in the middle is just some bum that wandered up ;^). We had a great time (as always). I would recommend to anyone if you get the opportunity to attend a Galoot gathering (of have the chance to organize one) to go for it. Like I said to Gary and David before we left that day, I've really never met a Galoot that I didn't like. I think you will feel the same. Best regards, Brian. http://www.sydnassloot.com/bbuckner/tools.htm ---- Start of Message 130475 (thread 50501) ---- From: Esther Heller Date: 2004-03-10 18:59:56 Subject: Re: T-BAG Class Report - "Making a Marking Gauge" (with pictures) - LONG > > > >After the tour and gloats we jumped into some "show and tell". David >demonstrated a couple of very cool circular shaves that he has been >making lately. I was impressed to say the least! The body of theses >shaves is a 1" cylinder. To demonstrate how tight of a radius they >could work David drilled a 1" hole in some scape Walnut and then ripped >the board in two right through the hole. He then proceeded to work the >inside curve with his circular shave. I was amazed at how well it >worked! I really think David is on to something here as this shave >worked much better and was easier to control than my original Miller >Falls #1 "cigar shave". This is definitely something that is on my list >of tools to make! > >http://home.earthlink.net/~bbuckner/Shaves01.jpg > > Gary? some details please? like what are you using for a blade and what are the woods in the pics....? pretty please? > > Esther Heller bench built Windsor chairs galoot#localnet.com > > > ++++ End of thread 50501 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50502 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130468 (thread 50502) ---- From: mimulus@p... Date: 2004-03-10 09:57:51 Subject: RE: Numbered and lettered Drill bits A couple of people responded to my question yesterday, addressing the value and purpose of number- and letter- sized drill bits, and I thank them. Further googling brought up a couple of useful tables: Number and letter drill sizes with metric alternatives: http://shopswarf.orcon.net.nz/drills.html Drilled holes for tapping: http://www.morsecuttingtools.com/reference/engineering.html So to return to my original, poorly worded question -- Does anyone know *how or why* these diameters were chosen? Diameters are specified to a tenth of a mil (close enough for my wood working), which suggests a definite reason behind these very definite values. The suggested bits for tapping use all three sizing schemes, so that doesn't seem to be the basis. They don't seem to be based on wire gauges either. Is there a hydrological connection or mathematical progression I've overlooked, or do these schemes make no more sense than English units of measurement (ounces, pounds, farthings, furlongs and inches). cur ++++ End of thread 50502 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50503 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130472 (thread 50503) ---- From: "Ben Knebel" Date: 2004-03-10 20:55:11 Subject: FS: Shepherd Launches the Big Guy-24 1/2" Jointer Hello Folkses; There is nothing quite like the presence of a large Infill Jointer. These planes are a stunning achievement both for their beauty and the difficulty to build them. Doug and I are proud to announce the launch of our 24 ½” Norris-style Adjustable Jointer, for March. Finished versions of these planes will be listed at $US 1200 and we will offer an introductory price of $US 1000 up until April 19th. Kits, normally listed at $US 575 will be introduced at $US 500 for the same limited period of time. That’s the skinny. If you want one, get in touch with me (knebel@r..., 519-624-7350). To see more go to http://www.shepherdtool.com/newsletter%20March%20Apri- l%202004%20MakenBigguns.htm Regards Ben ++++ End of thread 50503 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50504 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130477 (thread 50504) ---- From: "Jon Endres, PE" Date: 2004-03-10 19:29:19 Subject: How do you sharpen a drawknife? I have an 8" drawknife marked "E. BROAD & SONS" that I got at an antique place in NE Ohio. It was reasonably sharp when I got it, but in use, it's now quite dull. I can't find info online about how to sharpen one, especially since this one has two distinct "problems" - First, the edge is not parallel to the back, it's been somewhat hollowed by the prior owner. Second, whether by use or design, the blade isn't flat - it has a very slight curve to it. I have been racking my brain over this one, trying to find a solution, and have been quite unsuccessful. Any ideas? I have thought about a small handheld diamond hone, similar to those knife sharpening jigs - might this be the best solution? I'd like to flatten the back, but have no clue. Jon Endres, PE West Mountain Engineering ---- Start of Message 130482 (thread 50504) ---- From: Mike Rock Date: 2004-03-10 20:12:46 Subject: Re: How do you sharpen a drawknife? Jon, You don't want a flat back if you want to do a lot of work. I peeled a boatload of posts for nickels and dimes in the late fifties, early sixties. Our knives were convex both sides and had seen a lot of posts. The flat ones the kids from town would buy to work at the lumbermill/postmill were flat and they didn't work worth a ........... When the kids saw how well our 'old' knives worked, a few minutes with a body sander had their knives convex and they worked fine. A disk sander was used to sharpen about everything from Pulaskies and axes and picaroons to the shovels and stuff on the fire lines. A touch with a stone afterwards make our post shaves work great and last til lunch, then another stoning. Stone twice a day, or at need when getting started. They did not break on knots like the flat backed ones, either. Mike 03/10/2004 19:29:19 PM, "Jon Endres, PE" wrote: >I have an 8" drawknife marked "E. BROAD & SONS" that I got at an >antique place in NE Ohio. It was reasonably sharp when I got it, but in >use, it's now quite dull. > >I can't find info online about how to sharpen one, especially since >this one has two distinct "problems" - First, the edge is not parallel >to the back, it's been somewhat hollowed by the prior owner. Second, >whether by use or design, the blade isn't flat - it has a very slight >curve to it. > >I have been racking my brain over this one, trying to find a solution, >and have been quite unsuccessful. Any ideas? I have thought about a >small handheld diamond hone, similar to those knife sharpening jigs - >might this be the best solution? I'd like to flatten the back, but >have no clue. > >Jon Endres, PE West Mountain Engineering > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > ---- Start of Message 130484 (thread 50504) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-10 21:36:36 Subject: Re: How do you sharpen a drawknife? Jon writes : >I have an 8" drawknife marked "E. BROAD & SONS" that I got at an antique >place in NE Ohio. It was reasonably sharp when I got it, but in use, it's >now quite dull. For those that it might interest, this maker was in St.Stevens, New Brunswick, Canada (just above Maine, USA, Jeff). ---- Start of Message 130487 (thread 50504) ---- From: Kirk Eppler Date: 2004-03-10 20:46:05 Subject: Re: How do you sharpen a drawknife? When I bought mine from a FMM galoot, I immediately went down to the library and checked out L. Lee's Sharpening book (again), and followed his directions. Course, being stressed out of my gourd lately (really busy Jeff), I have no idea what I read or did, but it seemed to work much better when I was done. On the subject, has anyone bought the DVD, is it as good, or even better due to searching capabilities, and I can use it at work and no one except Joe Jerkins will know I'm goofing off? "Jon Endres, PE" wrote about killing a drawknife: > I can't find info online about how to sharpen one, especially since > this one has two distinct "problems" - First, the edge is not parallel > to the back, it's been somewhat hollowed by the prior owner. Second, > whether by use or design, the blade isn't flat - it has a very slight > curve to it. > > I have been racking my brain over this one, trying to find a solution, > and have been quite unsuccessful. Any ideas? I have thought about a > small handheld diamond hone, similar to those knife sharpening jigs - > might this be the best solution? I'd like to flatten the back, but > have no clue. -- Kirk Eppler in Warm (75°) Half Moon Bay, CA Eppler.Kirk@g... ---- Start of Message 130489 (thread 50504) ---- From: Mike Duchaj Date: 2004-03-10 23:28:45 Subject: Re: How do you sharpen a drawknife? Hi Jon, I hold one end in a vise blade up. Hold the other end of the DK in my left hand. I hold a long ceramic stone on my right hand. Run the stone over the bevel, then swap ends in the vise to form the back bevel. I power strop on a cardboard wheel. The knife edge works best with 2 bevels, not a flat back. Mike Duchaj Elgin, IL ---- Start of Message 130494 (thread 50504) ---- From: "Sanford Moss" Date: 2004-03-11 07:16:11 Subject: Re: How do you sharpen a drawknife? Ah, this is another ageless, but important, question The first step is to make a couple of sharpening "sticks". Mine are about 15" long, made of 2" wide stock, 1" thick. They need to be rigid, and long enough to grip securely with both hands. Then select four grits of wet/dry paper. I use 100, 220, 320, 400. With your handy 3M spray adhesive , glue 2" wide strips of each of the grits to the sticks. These will last a long while, giving you good use. Clamp the draw knife with the suspect edge to the front of a work bench, with the knife edge projecting just over the edge of the bench, bevel up. Depending on the style of the knife, you'll probably put the clamps on the handles, rather than the ends of the blade. Just make sure you use a clamp at each end of the draw knife, and everything is tight and rigid. Now, holding a stick in both hands, select a bevel angle and run the stick over the blade, sharpening to your criteria. Go through the grits, and you'll have a sharp edge. You can skew the sharpening sticks if you want. Just be sure to keep the stick flat on the bevel, and don't round the edge. This isn't hard, but you might want to clamp a strip of wood, behind the blade to give you the right angle, if you're kind of loose in the wrists. Putting a back bevel on a draw knife is a totally personal thing. For rough work, it is probably ok. But you're turning the tool into a big carving knife, and losing some control when you do that. It is not fun when you're roughing out a chamfer on an expensive piece of cherry, and the knife runs into a grain reversal and dives into the stock. I prefer to have flat backs on my draw knives. So I just flip them over, reclamp them to the bench, and flatten the backs with the same sticks. Best regards, Sandy Tools for Sale list at http://www.sydnassloot.com/tools.htm Brace Collection at http://www.sydnassloot.com/brace.htm _________________________________________________________________ Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx ---- Start of Message 130505 (thread 50504) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-11 08:05:46 Subject: Re: How do you sharpen a drawknife? Lots of ways to skin a cat! Good one Sandy! For myself, I made a new box for a sharpening stone just like any other and nailed through the bottom into a scrap of 2x6 about 10" long. Then grab the 2X in the vise. This puts the stone about 7" higher up in the air so now, I can just pretend the drawknife is any old chisel or plane blade and the handles don't get in the way. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ++++ End of thread 50504 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50505 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130478 (thread 50505) ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-03-10 16:43:16 Subject: Making a marking knife consensus was it the consensus a bit back to make a good marking knife out of an old file? Or should I just buy a Japanese single bevel like the David Charlesworth's Furniture Making Techniques and actually make some furniture rather than tools. oh it's a slippery slope indeed! Alan -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ---- Start of Message 130481 (thread 50505) ---- From: JPagona@a... Date: 2004-03-10 20:53:19 Subject: Re: Making a marking knife consensus In a message dated 3/10/2004 7:44:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, arwbackup@w... writes: <<>>> An old file will work, but you'll have to grind off the teeth on at least one side. A scrap of O1 works. I made some out of old high speed steel planer blades (disposable blades made for electron eating wood butchery equipment, Jeff). The nice part about using the HSS was that I didn't have to do any heat treating. <<<,Or should I just buy a Japanese single bevel like the David Charlesworth's Furniture Making Techniques and actually make some furniture rather than tools. oh it's a slippery slope indeed!>>>> What is burning in your belly to be made? If it's the knife, it will set you back a few evenings at most on the furniture. If it's the furniture, you can always make a knife when your ready for a small fun project. In short, the answer to which way to go is, "Yes. Absolutely." Truth be told, I've made several marking knives, bought a pair of Crown single bevel knives and had a nice knife given to me by another galoot. 75% if the time, I reach for my Stanley 199 razor knife. After years of using it for layout when I was earning my living as a carpenter, it still usually feels the most comfortable for me when doing layout. David Sobel rambling on in Tampa, FL ---- Start of Message 130488 (thread 50505) ---- From: Mike Duchaj Date: 2004-03-10 23:28:30 Subject: Re: Making a marking knife consensus Hi Alan and GG's, Alan open this can of worms: Alan Womack wrote: > was it the consensus a bit back to make a good marking knife out of an > old file? My current marking knife project involves 2 old files. If you intend to handle them, you'll need to drill them. If you drill them, you'll need to anneal them. If you anneal them, you'll need a barbeque grill. (Make steaks that night. Cover the file blank with hot coals and leave until morning.) If you anneal and drill them, you'll need to reharden them. If you need to reharden them, you'll need a torch or forge. (And a can of preheated oil.)(Don't stand down-wind. The oil will likely ignite and can burn all the hair off yor arm. DAMHIKT) If you harden them, you'll need to temper them. If you temer them, you'll need an oven or forge. (If you use the oven, do this late at night to avoid SES) Do all the basic shaping in the annealed state, so grinding temperature is not an issue. Leave the blade edge a bit thick, and finish sharpening after tempering. A post drill and forge are great tools to have for this project, so if you don't have them, you'll have to get them first. I'll post pics of my knives when they're done. Mike Duchaj Elgin, IL ---- Start of Message 130493 (thread 50505) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-03-11 07:45:14 Subject: RE: Making a marking knife consensus : -----Original Message----- : From: Alan Womack [mailto:arwbackup@w...] : Sent: 11 March 2004 00:43 : To: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] Making a marking knife consensus : : Or should I just buy a Japanese single bevel like the David : Charlesworth's : Furniture Making Techniques and actually make some furniture : rather than tools. If you buy or make a single bevel knife, ensure that the bevel is on the 'inside' face, though you might have difficulty in finding a maker who offers a choice. Usually they are on the right-hand face, ie the wrong one. The arguments are on my web site, Marking Out Notes - Marking Out Made a Bit Easier and An Aspect On The Bevel. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 130512 (thread 50505) ---- From: "Foster, Jim" Date: 2004-03-11 10:45:33 Subject: RE: Making a marking knife consensus Sounds like this could be turned into a picture book: If You Give a Galoot a Project ...B^)=20 >=20 > If you intend to handle them, you'll need to drill them. > If you drill them, you'll need to anneal them. > If you anneal them, you'll need a barbeque grill. (Make=20 > steaks that night. Cover > the file blank with hot coals and leave until morning.) > If you anneal and drill them, you'll need to reharden them. > If you need to reharden them, you'll need a torch or forge.=20 > (And a can of > preheated oil.)(Don't stand down-wind. The oil will likely=20 > ignite and can burn all > the hair off yor arm. DAMHIKT) > If you harden them, you'll need to temper them. > If you temer them, you'll need an oven or forge. (If you use=20 > the oven, do this > late at night to avoid SES) >=20 ++++ End of thread 50505 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50506 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130479 (thread 50506) ---- From: "Lamar keeney" Date: 2004-03-10 19:44:55 Subject: RE: Tony Zaffuto Thanks to you and all the welcomes. I used the Wilmington as a l referance.Actualy if you take the 398 exit for HWY 53 E from I-40, to Topsail you may have done stopped in. If not after you get on 53 look a quarter mile on the left for Peddler's Path.This is where i reside, and help my good friend Jim with our bait/antique/U-haul/ or what ever we can. Corperate head-quarters of "Turner Interprizes".Our last corp. exspantion wasthe two shelfs inthe room back of the bait shop,for old more stuff. Really upward mobile type. As for rust hunting i have met a couple of really good peaple lately who are very much into the old tool thing.(one Galoot leads to another).Worth meeting. My E-mail add. is" lamar_k@h..." feel free to punch it up.Here at the shop leaves me time to comunicate.Drop a line and come on by. Thanks Lamar _________________________________________________________________ Fast. Reliable. Get MSN 9 Dial-up - 3 months for the price of 1! (Limited-time Offer) http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ ++++ End of thread 50506 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50507 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130480 (thread 50507) ---- From: JPagona@a... Date: 2004-03-10 20:43:43 Subject: Re: T-BAG Class Report - "Making a Marking Gauge" (with pictures)... In a message dated 3/10/2004 6:55:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, Esther writes: >>>Gary? some details please? like what are you using for a blade and what are the woods in the pics....? pretty please?<<<< Hi Esther, good to see you back. We missed you. The two shaves are made from cocobolo and bubinga. The irons are bevel down, and are rounded to match the 1" diameter of the shave bodies. I made the irons from O1 steel, hardened them in a propane microforge, and tempered them in the kitchen oven. The irons have slots in them, and they are attached to the bodies with screws through the slots. On my original shave, the bubinga one, I just tapped some holes directly in the wood and inserted the screws. I found that method has one problem. If the screw head touches on one side of the slot before the other, it makes the iron want to move as you're tightening down the screw. On later shaves, I through drilled the holes, counterbored the opposite side and attached the screws with knurled brass knobs on the top of the shave. I also used screws that are a little wider than the slots. I filed the two flats on the shaft just under the screw heads which allows the screws to slide in the slots, but doesn't allow them to spin in the slots. This method works pretty well. Brian was actually very modest in his post. He didn't mention any of the tools that he brought. I brought out my cigar shaves...he brought out two fantastic spokeshaves. I brought out a wooden rabbet plane I made...he brought out a dovetailed, infill shoulder plane, then the miter plane, then the block plane. I ran out of tools I made to show off...he brought out a fantastic little bowsaw. Oh yeah, there was also the marking knife he made at the T-BAG event 2 years ago. Everything he made had a fantastic level of fit and finish, and everything worked beautifully. Like Brian wrote, it really was an enjoyable time. The only tough part was hearing Brian and Gary compare their humongous wood stashes. I don't think I have room to store even 1/10 of what either of them has. They're almost as bad as Wife and her fabric stash. Hmmm...maybe Wife would let me put up another lumber rack in her sewing room. Probably not. Oh, BTW, Gary isn't on the List. But that's ok, we like him anyway. David Sobel Tampa, FL ++++ End of thread 50507 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50508 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130483 (thread 50508) ---- From: "George Langford" Date: 2004-03-10 21:28:15 Subject: Re: Straightening saws (long winded metalhead explanation ahead) Hello Galoots ! Last summer I asked the same question as Roger Rosner ... And eventually figured it out with the help of several Galoots, Todd Hughes among them. Now, at the risk of providing too much of a comparison between a metalhead and a practitioner (one who thinks he knows and the other whose technique actually works ...) here's the metalhead's explanation. It's difficult to get a good steel blade to bend reliably without a good deal of practice, because it's all too easy to bend too far. And the saws that we want most to straighten are the ones that are made of the best and hardest steel. So we have to resort to a more reliable method. It's called "ironing." Almost as in ironing a shirt. It's based on an old experiment that's easy to visualize. Imagine a weight hanging on the end of a wire. If you turn the weight a little bit and then let go, the wire unwinds and the weight oscillates back and forth. That's what's known as elastic behavior. If you want the weight to turn to a certain point and then stay there, you're doomed to failure if you just twist the weight on the end of the wire until it takes a permanent set and then let go, because the wire unwinds so much. On the other hand, if you twist the weight to the exact point where you want to end up and then slightly stretch the wire, there will be no unwinding and the weight will stay at the position where you turned it. Now fast forward to that bent saw. What Todd's talking about and what I also do is force the bent portion of the saw flat against the face of the anvil, and then rap it all over the flat area with a hammer. Todd prefers a light hammer and lots of taps, I use a two or three pound hammer and whack it pretty hard. Don't let the edge of the hammer face hit the saw ! The hammer blows cause the elastically bent (from curved to straight, that is) steel to undergo permanent set (as in stretching that wire in the thought experiment) so that there is no spring-back. Voila ! Straight. Now repeat as needed. Twisted saws are a little more difficult, as it's necessary to stretch the metal in one direction only. That's not the same as just "deforming" it more or less in all directions at once. Actually, too much bashing on the face of a saw is going to stretch the middle of the blade, and it will then become cup shaped, which you want to avoid, as an awful lot of compensatory bashing will then be needed to flatten it again. That's where the Saw Doctor's hammer and anvil come in - as in tensioning of a circular saw or bandsaw blade. That's a whole new level of skill. The Saw Doctor's twist-removing hammer has oval faces arranged so that flipping the head over changes the direction of the oval by 90 degrees. The oval has the desired effect of causing stretch more in one direction than in the opposite one. One has to think long and hard to work out upstairs which way to stretch a twisted or saddle-shaped blade in order to make the imaginary diagonals come out the same length, thereby untwisting the blade. If you sight along these diagonals, you'll see that the saw is actually straight in one direction and curved in the other. The curved diagonal is the one that's too long. Therefore, you have to stretch the straight diagional, as it's impossible to shorten the curved diagonal. It's curved because the extra length causes the metal to buckle. Make sense ? Try it out first on a two dollar saw. And wear safety glasses if you have to try bending the saw over your knee or the edge of the workbench. A cracked saw can fracture dramatically. Best regards, George Langford in balmier SE PA georgel@v... http://wwww.georgesbasement.com/ ++++ End of thread 50508 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50509 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130485 (thread 50509) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-10 21:44:09 Subject: Re: Straightening saws I tried this out on a small keyhole saw and, while I succeeded in straightening it out, the blade went from being pretty limp to being extremely rigid. So much so that I'm a bit afraid to use it. It won't hardly flex at all anymore. Won't this (case hardening ?) also happen on a larger saw ? What do you do if it does ? Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130501 (thread 50509) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-11 07:43:47 Subject: Re: Straightening saws On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 06:44 PM, Paul Pedersen wrote: > > I tried this out on a small keyhole saw and, while I succeeded > in straightening it out, the blade went from being pretty limp > to being extremely rigid. So much so that I'm a bit afraid to > use it. It won't hardly flex at all anymore. > > Won't this (case hardening ?) also happen on a larger saw ? > What do you do if it does ? > You would have had to do a powerful bunch of beating on the blade for it to have work hardened to the point that you couldn't use it. I wouldn't worry about it. But if you are a worry-wart, put the blade in the oven at 500 degrees F. for an hour. That will bring everything back to normal. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ++++ End of thread 50509 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50510 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130486 (thread 50510) ---- From: "Robert Brown" Date: 2004-03-10 21:13:15 Subject: SWMBO/GIT gloat, & miscellany Esteemed Galoots, This has to be a pretty big swmbo gloat, I think. I banked 3 weeks to take off from work following the birth of our first kid (beep beep!, loads of photos at www.members.shaw.ca/robnmargo), to help SWMBO around the house, and make sure she'd be ok on her own with the kid before I go back to work. And what's she do? She lets me work in the shop! She even let me stop in at Lee Valley to pick up a nagura and a micrometer caliper, with the little G.I.T. in the car with us. I must be one lucky galoot. Miscellany: Does anyone find that their nagura is harder than their fine grit waterstone? Does your nagura really speed the honing process? The nagura I picked up just makes light coloured marks on my 6000 grit stone, and didn't really make a slurry. I've used this stone for years with no nagura, and don't see a difference. I have some older pieces of furniture with crazed finishes: two sandalwood-inlaid end tables my grandfather built from honduras mahogany, french polished; and a commercially made dresser of walnut, with unknown finish. How should I go about improving the finish on each? With thanks in advance, Rob in Winnipeg Galoot Canuck _________________________________________________________________ One-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – download MSN Toolbar now! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ ++++ End of thread 50510 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50511 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130490 (thread 50511) ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-03-10 23:52:14 Subject: CATS/MWTCA show April 3rd Well, I just got home from this month's CATS meet, where we put the finishing touches on the upcoming show April 3rd. It's looking like its going to be a great show, with 40-50 tables of tools, and 100+ attendees. Tonight we collected up the door prizes, and in case all galoots within a couple of hundred miles of Chicago didn't have enough reason to make the trip down on April 3rd, our door prizes (donated by some *very* generous CATS members) are: - A dead mint Lie-Nielsen #602 plane - A pair of Vaughan and Bushnell drop-forged bench planes (#4C and #5) - A beautiful (and large) piece of Gaboon ebony - A "come-and-go" style table joint plane (made by yours truly). You can check out the pictures at: http://www.brendlers.net/cats (and no, Bahto is *not* for sale...) Fellow galoot and CATS member Wes Groot will be at the meet demonstrating making crown moldings with hollows and rounds, and Gil Chesbro will also be "demonstrating something" (Hey Gil-- Wes has a favor to ask ). This is a great chance for all of you non-MWTCA members to see what a collector's organization has to offer. You can come to the meet as guests of the hosts, see an MWTCA meet first hand, and when (not if) you decide to join at the meet, your admission price will be applied to your first year's dues! I hope to see a bunch of galoots there. Feel free to ping me if you have any questions. ralph (CATS treasurer, and MWTCA area E director) ++++ End of thread 50511 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50512 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130497 (thread 50512) ---- From: "Palazzolo, Joe" Date: 2004-03-11 08:32:12 Subject: Dayton Galootin' GG's, Just crawled out of my hole long enough to wonder what that yellow thing is up in the sky and send out this RFI (Request For Information, whoever). I'll be in Dayton, Ohio, from March 15 - 19 and will have most evenings free. Any Dayton area galoots interested in getting together for dinner and/or tool-talk? ("Transitional planes - wonder-tool or firewood. Discuss.") I'll be checking my mail during the week, so if you can't get back to me before Friday, don't let that stop you from pinging me. Joe Palazzolo Fort Wayne, Indiana Crawling back into my cave now... ************************************ This email and any files transmitted with it are proprietary and intended= solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.= If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions= presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not= necessarily represent those of ITT Industries, Inc. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence= of viruses. ITT Industries accepts no liability for any damage caused by= any virus transmitted by this email. ************************************ ++++ End of thread 50512 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50513 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130503 (thread 50513) ---- From: "YARROW, GARY" Date: 2004-03-11 10:09:43 Subject: DesMoines galoots.... I'll be in DesMoines (as in Iowa) starting next Tuesday and Wednesday. If any of youse guys that live in the area would like to get together for dinner, please ping me. Tuesday might be better, but it would be a little later. I'll be staying at the "Living History Farm" area, if that makes a difference. I'll even buy a beverage of some kind. Thanks Gary ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dr. Gary L. Yarrow, Director/RSO/CCHO Environmental Health and Safety SH 059; Box 2202 South Dakota State University Brookings, SD 57007-0796 605-688-6332 ++++ End of thread 50513 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50514 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130506 (thread 50514) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-11 09:16:10 Subject: anvil All this talk about straightening saws (and the arrival of my Shepard Spiers smoother kit) has me thinking about anvils. Can anyone give me some price guidelines for a anvil in the 150-200 pound range? I'm clueless. Thanks. Blake ++++ End of thread 50514 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50515 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130507 (thread 50515) ---- From: ralong Date: 2004-03-11 11:20:41 Subject: PATINA or larger tool shows Galoots, When attending large tool shows, like Patina, Midwest, EAIA, we all have our "Game Plan". I would like to hear some "Game Plans" from Galoots. The night before is usually spent in a restless sleep dreaming about some old guy driving up in an old pickup with tons of minty Stanley tools in a box, yells outs ten buck apiece and I'm the only one around!!! My dreams never come true. My "Game Plan": arrive very early, set out tables (I sell, so I can buy), quickly checkout dealers tailgating, put my tools out, sell, cover tools, go in at 9:00, quickly look for some tool to catch my eye, buy it and go back outside to sell more tools to pay for the one tool I bought. I c*ll*ct and use (best of both worlds) mostly woodworking tools. I was a bottom feeder, but over 20 years I have upgrade to finer tools at the lower end. The top end prices - Walter's Book are out of reach. Mint in a box = high end c*ll*ctor. I find my best deal in the parking lot or at the END of a show. Dealers cut more slack $$$ at the end. I'll offer a very low price and many times can get the tool. Some dealers may have had a "rough" day and they will cut their profit, I benefit at the END. Just my thoughts. How about yours. Rick Long, in sunny 45 Richmond, VA ---- Start of Message 130611 (thread 50515) ---- From: Steve and Dianne Noe Date: 2004-03-12 21:29:38 Subject: Re: PATINA or larger tool shows Here in Indianapolis it's: 1. be nice to Chris Berger - especially if he's got something new at tailgating 2. be _very nice_ to Tod Herrli - he may have some ebony to share 3. kneecap anybody else Steve Noe, ducking, running, and grinning in Indianapolis dandsnoe@m... Juicy red meat is not bad for you... Fuzzy green meat, now THAT=B9S bad for you ++++ End of thread 50515 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50516 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130514 (thread 50516) ---- From: Chuck Taylor Date: 2004-03-11 08:52:57 Subject: Tool p*rn Esteemed Gentle Galoots (EGGs), I was looking through the latest catalog from Garrett Wade and came across a few items that might be of general interest. (No, I don't work for Garrett Wade or anything like that.) 1. Modern glass glue pot with butane burner: http://tinyurl.com/37wy7 I'd worry a bit about breaking the glass in the workshop, but it looks handy. 2. 4-jaw brace and screwdriver bits: http://tinyurl.com/2m96b An interesting approach to screwdriver bits. 3. Brass and rosewood planes: http://tinyurl.com/yrug8 The price is certainly right on these planes. Cheers, Chuck Taylor Everett, WA, USA __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---- Start of Message 130529 (thread 50516) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-11 17:14:03 Subject: RE: Tool p*rn I wonder how that one works in practice because most of the socket connections I know of have some wobble inherent in them. Not that they aren't fine tools, particularly if one doesn't have air tools available. The unduly size can easily be overcome with a good set or two of universal swivel joints. I am questioning if the fit of the chuck to the brace would be an issue while boring holes. Would it be accurate or have some slop that might get considerably worse over time? Great tool idea if it works well in actual practice. I have seen allen wrenches built into sockets that could also work on that brace. Particularly after the discussion on spur cutters for bullet molds I find myself wondering what else is out there for braces? Besides my bits all I have in a slotted screwdriver bit and a countersink bit. I leave my countersink in one brace because having its own tool as it saves time chucking up bits. I think it works better than the p*w*red counterparts because I have better control of the fit and once I do I can count the revolutions and duplicate on all holes thereafter. > [Original Message] > From: Chuck Taylor > 2. 4-jaw brace and screwdriver bits: > > http://tinyurl.com/2m96b > > An interesting approach to screwdriver bits. > > > 3. Brass and rosewood planes: > > http://tinyurl.com/yrug8 I have to wonder if anything that cheap can be good? ---- Start of Message 130531 (thread 50516) ---- From: "Anthony Seo" Date: 2004-03-11 19:30:27 Subject: Re: Tool p*rn > I have seen allen wrenches built into sockets that could also work on that > brace. Particularly after the discussion on spur cutters for bullet molds I Did I miss something..or are you mixing lists?? > find myself wondering what else is out there for braces? Besides my bits > all I have in a slotted screwdriver bit and a countersink bit. I leave my There are lots of nifty neato's for braces. Phillips bits, gasket cutters of all shapes and sizes, cherries and burrs as recently discussed, tenon cutters and spoke pointers. And I am sure I am missing a few.. You are just beginning the slide down this slope Tony ---- Start of Message 130532 (thread 50516) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-03-11 19:32:17 Subject: RE: Tool p*rn > > From: Chuck Taylor > > 2. 4-jaw brace and screwdriver bits: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/2m96b > > > > An interesting approach to screwdriver bits. > > Lee Valley has some comparable stuff: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page=32300&cate- gory=1,180,42337 Now, if we can just find a good source of forstner bits for braces... N ---- Start of Message 130547 (thread 50516) ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-03-12 09:13:36 Subject: Re: Tool p*rn Anthony Seo wrote: > There are lots of nifty neato's for braces. Phillips bits, gasket cutters > of all shapes and sizes, cherries and burrs as recently discussed, tenon > cutters and spoke pointers. And I am sure I am missing a few.. > > You are just beginning the slide down this slope At the risk of being off topic (but only just) I find a brace is excellent for starting a tap (as in thread cutting) off straight and true. Just be (very!) careful not to wreck small taps with excess torque. Now I just need a solution to starting dies off straight and true. BugBear ---- Start of Message 130553 (thread 50516) ---- From: Dmwarder@a... Date: 2004-03-12 09:04:31 Subject: Re: Tool p*rn I don't know how well it works, but my father had a fixture for a brace which held a one inch round die. I never saw him use it however. Regards, Dale ---- Start of Message 130554 (thread 50516) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-12 06:29:37 Subject: Re: Tool p*rn On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 01:13 AM, bugbear wrote: > > At the risk of being off topic (but only just) > I find a brace is excellent for starting a tap (as in thread cutting) > off straight and true. Just be (very!) careful not to wreck small > taps with excess torque. > > Now I just need a solution to starting dies off straight and true. > > BugBear The easiest way to start a die is to first grind a chamfer on the end of the rod to the full depth of the thread. The die will start easier then and be less susceptible to starting crooked. After you are finished you can grind off the first thread if it doesn't look right to you. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130556 (thread 50516) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-12 08:00:27 Subject: RE: Tool p*rn I have a gunsmith's screwdriver set that consists of two handles and about 60 hex bits in graduated sizes. I recently bought one of those adaptors from Lee Valley so I can have a choice of 60 standard screwdriver bits for my brace. Of course the torque of a brace will be serious overkill for some of the tiny bits. Those I will put in the hex bit adaptor for my Yankee screwdriver. What I really want now is a set of graduated sizes of "Perfect Handle" style screwdriver handles that take hex bits. Ideas? By the way, you can get the gunsmith screwdriver set from Brownell's. Blake >>> Nichael Cramer 03/11/2004 5:32:17 PM >>> > > From: Chuck Taylor > > 2. 4-jaw brace and screwdriver bits: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/2m96b > > > > An interesting approach to screwdriver bits. > > Lee Valley has some comparable stuff: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page=32300&cate- gory=1,180,42337 Now, if we can just find a good source of forstner bits for braces... N ---- Start of Message 130563 (thread 50516) ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 2004-03-12 11:30:41 Subject: Re: Tool p*rn Hi, Dale (and Others) I'm like your father. I have a couple of those bit brace die holders --- had them for years --- and I've never found any occasion to use one. Still, awhile back on this list it was pointed out that there might be places where there was no room for swinging the arms of the usual die holder but you could get at the job with one of these. Trevor ---- Start of Message 130564 (thread 50516) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-12 10:35:02 Subject: Re: Tool p*rn I always stick the rod as straight as possible in the vise making sure to keep the end not too far out of the vise. I suppose you could use a level or square if you are really concerned. This way when I start the die all I have to do is keep the die holder's handles parallel to the vise jaws. It's an easy visual reference. > On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 01:13 AM, bugbear wrote: > > > > > At the risk of being off topic (but only just) > > I find a brace is excellent for starting a tap (as in thread cutting) > > off straight and true. Just be (very!) careful not to wreck small > > taps with excess torque. > > > > Now I just need a solution to starting dies off straight and true. > > > > BugBear ---- Start of Message 130566 (thread 50516) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-12 10:41:27 Subject: Re: Tool p*rn Great suggestion. Not only that but on those more demanding larger sizes it can get pretty tiresome on one's hand with the small handle and many holes to tap. But how do you get the short square tap to hold into the brace's chuck? Adapter? Or newer style 3 or 4 jaw chuck? Also just a few days ago someone posted about braces accepting round bits. I never knew this, I guess I just got used to the idea of always sticking a square tang in there. Do only certain braces accept round bits or will this work for any brace? I know all of mine are just 2 jaw chucks. > At the risk of being off topic (but only just) > I find a brace is excellent for starting a tap (as in thread cutting) > off straight and true. Just be (very!) careful not to wreck small > taps with excess torque. > > Now I just need a solution to starting dies off straight and true. > > BugBear > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130570 (thread 50516) ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-03-12 17:08:05 Subject: Re: Tool p*rn John Sawchak wrote: > Great suggestion. Not only that but on those more demanding larger sizes it > can get pretty tiresome on one's hand with the small handle and many holes > to tap. But how do you get the short square tap to hold into the brace's > chuck? Adapter? Or newer style 3 or 4 jaw chuck? > > Also just a few days ago someone posted about braces accepting round bits. > I never knew this, I guess I just got used to the idea of always sticking a > square tang in there. Do only certain braces accept round bits or will this > work for any brace? I know all of mine are just 2 jaw chucks. Some luckly people have a Jacobs chuck with a brace "pyramid shank" shaft. A handy adapter. BugBear :-) ++++ End of thread 50516 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50517 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130517 (thread 50517) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 2004-03-11 13:14:27 Subject: Galoot Hat Galoots, Want an original, burgundy, "Paddy-dasher", type 1, super cool Galoot Hat? Rumor has it one is going to be sold at a Martin J. Donnelly antique tool auction. If you want to see what I believe to be the very one to be sold, take a look here: < http://www.mjdtools.com/ > It was originally sold to Martin by an old time Galoot for a princely sum of dinero! *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * *********************************************** ++++ End of thread 50517 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50518 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130520 (thread 50518) ---- From: Louis Michaud Date: 2004-03-11 15:01:42 Subject: Canoe awl GG, Restoring wood/canvas canoes got me reading about the history of w/c canoes, then birchbark canoes, then fur trade canoes, then got me looking for a suitable birch tree for the bark, then tools for making birchbark canoes... No end to this slope... So, I got the axe, crooked knife, tumpline to carry out the birchbark, etc. The item missing is the canoe awl used to make holes in the bark for sewing with the split spruce roots. They used a canoe awl. I'ts stronger then a regular awl, has a triangular / square / diamond cross section and has an offset bend at the middle. The shaft without the handle kinda looks like this: __________ < _________ \________ \_________ > I think the bend is a cheap and fast way to have a bolster to stop the shaft from going into the handle under the repeated strain of pushing trough the bark. Maybe also a removable handle for packing, or the ability to use both ends? Other explanations? I know I could make one and there is a reenactment outfit that sells them. But I would like to try to find an original first. They were probably made from the 1700s to the late1800s. Any chances that one of you Galoots picked up a bunch of them thinking they crooked knitting rods? Thanks. Best, Louis Michaud Rimouski, Quebec ++++ End of thread 50518 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50519 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130522 (thread 50519) ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-03-11 16:26:29 Subject: The Plow Plane of all Plow Planes! Just read about this auction in an antique journal today. on 1/31/04 at Vail's Auction House in Pine Bush NY a three arm plow plane made by Israel White with ten original irons sold for $9,240. Bet that one won't be a user. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ---- Start of Message 130523 (thread 50519) ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 2004-03-11 16:40:00 Subject: Re: The Plow Plane of all Plow Planes! At 04:26 PM 3/11/04, Bill Rittner wrote: >Just read about this auction in an antique journal today. on 1/31/04 at >Vail's Auction House in Pine Bush NY a three arm plow plane made by Israel >White with ten original irons sold for $9,240. If it was in good shape, that was actually cheap. One sold at Browns a couple of years ago with one iron for $15-17,000. Tony (are we there yet?) Olde River Hard Goods 350 West Catawissa Street Nesquehoning PA 18240 570-669-9421 The best old tool store in Pennsylvania! http://www.oldetoolshop.com ---- Start of Message 130525 (thread 50519) ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-03-11 17:14:02 Subject: Re: The Plow Plane of all Plow Planes! One sold at Brown's last year for about $29,000! > At 04:26 PM 3/11/04, Bill Rittner wrote: >> Just read about this auction in an antique journal today. on 1/31/04 at >> Vail's Auction House in Pine Bush NY a three arm plow plane made by Israel >> White with ten original irons sold for $9,240. > > If it was in good shape, that was actually cheap. One sold at Browns a > couple of years ago with one iron for $15-17,000. > ---- Start of Message 130530 (thread 50519) ---- From: "Anthony Seo" Date: 2004-03-11 19:21:07 Subject: Re: The Plow Plane of all Plow Planes! > One sold at Brown's last year for about $29,000! I stand corrected..I remembered it was 5 figures at least Now if I remember everything I want to bring to PATINA I'll be doing fine Memo to Me: Make A List 2nd Memo to Me: Remember to Read It!! Tony ---- Start of Message 130533 (thread 50519) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-12 00:55:41 Subject: re: The Plow Plane of all Plow Planes! Why in the world would someone spend that kinda money on a tool and not use it? Well, I do have that split nut Disston that I'm thinkin of puttin in a display case . . . but. Jerry ---- Start of Message 130534 (thread 50519) ---- From: Johnny Johnson Date: 2004-03-11 20:50:00 Subject: re: The Plow Plane of all Plow Planes! At 12:55 AM 3/12/2004 +0000, Jerry Palmer wrote: >Why in the world would someone spend that kinda money on a tool and not >use it? Hi Jerry, I guess I've got a different take on it - Why in the world would someone spend that kind of money on a tool and then use it? Later, Johnny __________________________ Johnny Johnson Lilburn, GA mailto:jjohnso4@c... ---- Start of Message 130535 (thread 50519) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-03-11 21:02:49 Subject: re: The Plow Plane of all Plow Planes! Johnny Johnson wrote: > Jerry Palmer wrote: >>Why in the world would someone spend that kinda money on a tool and not >>use it? >Hi Jerry, >I guess I've got a different take on it - Why in the world would someone >spend that kind of money on a tool and then use it? I think you're both half right: Why in the world would someone spend that kinda money on a tool? N ---- Start of Message 130536 (thread 50519) ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-03-11 21:23:07 Subject: Re: The Plow Plane of all Plow Planes! Bill Rittner wrote: > Just read about this auction in an antique journal today. on 1/31/04 at > Vail's Auction House in Pine Bush NY a three arm plow plane made by > Israel > White with ten original irons sold for $9,240. > > Bet that one won't be a user. > GG Saw an ivory presentation plough go at a Crafts auction in Flemington NJ a couple of years ago and i think it went for about $25,000. This one was NEVER a user. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 130537 (thread 50519) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-11 18:22:21 Subject: Re: The Plow Plane of all Plow Planes! In the world of antiques, it seems that nothing ever gets cheaper. Paintings have appreciated from a million dollars to a hundred million dollars in my lifetime. I don't suppose you could go too far wrong buying anything that is rare and expensive. Of course us common folk don't get to play that game. On Thursday, March 11, 2004, at 06:02 PM, Nichael Cramer wrote: > Johnny Johnson wrote: >> Jerry Palmer wrote: >>> Why in the world would someone spend that kinda money on a tool and >>> not use it? >> Hi Jerry, >> I guess I've got a different take on it - Why in the world would >> someone spend that kind of money on a tool and then use it? > > I think you're both half right: > > Why in the world would someone spend that kinda money on a tool? ---- Start of Message 130538 (thread 50519) ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-03-11 21:31:09 Subject: Re: The Plow Plane of all Plow Planes! Johnny Johnson wrote: >> Why in the world would someone spend that kinda money on a tool and >> not use it? >> In Delaware we trade low digit license plates from the 20's on - all are still legal to use so you are buying the registration, not just the actual plate. A guy I work for outh "8" a couple of years a go for $169,000 and it is now rumored to be worth in excess of $250,000. a friend of my FIL sold his mother's "88" for $70,000 a couple of years ago. Another friend bought 2 3 digit plates for $4,000 apiece and resold them for about $15,000 three years later. This is the wish of many collectors - that they find something they truly want to own, then sell it for a profit when the time comes. Ed Minch Who has none of this kind of thing on the shelves in the basement ---- Start of Message 130539 (thread 50519) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-11 20:38:30 Subject: Re: The Plow Plane of all Plow Planes! I wonder if the license plates are worth more if loaded with patina? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michele Minch" To: "oldtools" Cc: "oldtools" Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 6:31 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] The Plow Plane of all Plow Planes! > > Johnny Johnson wrote: > > >> Why in the world would someone spend that kinda money on a tool and > >> not use it? > >> > > In Delaware we trade low digit license plates from the 20's on - all > are still legal to use so you are buying the registration, not just the > actual plate. A guy I work for outh "8" a couple of years a go for > $169,000 and it is now rumored to be worth in excess of $250,000. a > friend of my FIL sold his mother's "88" for $70,000 a couple of years > ago. Another friend bought 2 3 digit plates for $4,000 apiece and > resold them for about $15,000 three years later. This is the wish of > many collectors - that they find something they truly want to own, then > sell it for a profit when the time comes. > > Ed Minch > Who has none of this kind of thing on the shelves in the basement > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130540 (thread 50519) ---- From: "Steven Johnson (MSR)" Date: 2004-03-11 18:58:57 Subject: RE: The Plow Plane of all Plow Planes! If people are curious about such a thing looks like, you can see it on my new site http://www.finetools.com. (Check under planes, natch).=20 This site is still in its infancy, so any comments pro or con would be valued (especially from people with non-IE browsers).=20 Steve Johnson ---- Start of Message 130543 (thread 50519) ---- From: Johnny Johnson Date: 2004-03-11 22:41:13 Subject: Re: The Plow Plane of all Plow Planes! At 09:31 PM 3/11/2004 -0500, Ed Minch wrote: > Johnny Johnson wrote: > >>>Why in the world would someone spend that kinda money on a tool and not >>>use it? Hi Ed (& others), Just as a minor correction - I didn't write the above statement. I think I have a very good understanding of how someone can value the beauty of a plane, or other tools such as a fine grade shotgun, without putting it to it's original use. Later, Johnny __________________________ Johnny Johnson Lilburn, GA mailto:jjohnso4@c... ---- Start of Message 130548 (thread 50519) ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-03-12 09:19:26 Subject: Re: The Plow Plane of all Plow Planes! Michele Minch wrote: > GG > > Saw an ivory presentation plough go at a Crafts auction in Flemington NJ > a couple of years ago and i think it went for about $25,000. This one > was NEVER a user. Indeed. Some spectacular tool were made for shop window displays, exhibtions (like the "Great" one of 1851), or as presentations. They were never intended for use. Very much like the blued and gilded presentation swords that I admired in Edinborough. *Not* intended for combat. http://www.nms.ac.uk/services/main.htm (if anyone cares) BugBear ---- Start of Message 130562 (thread 50519) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-12 11:29:49 Subject: Re: The Plow Plane of all Plow Planes! Hi Bugbear & All, Just for Bug's (and any others) edification, the ivory plow plane sold at CRAFTS was a recently made one - not really a presentation or exhibition piece. The guy who made it was a superb craftsman who made that and a number of other types of old tools just for his own amusemant. They were only sold after he died. I forget the particulars, but there were some things about it that were "better" than any other ivory plows that have ever been made in past or recently. I'm more partial to true oldies than such latter day pieces, but it was a real beauty. Best Wisehs, Bob ++++ End of thread 50519 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50520 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130542 (thread 50520) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-11 22:17:42 Subject: Re: T-BAG Class Report - "Making a Marking Gauge" Brian writes : >http://home.earthlink.net/~bbuckner/Groupshot.jpg > >That's Gary on the right, David on the left (the fat, ugly guy in >the middle is just some bum that wandered up ;^). Great post and a great picture. Paul (who'd forgotten what people looked like in shorts...) Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ++++ End of thread 50520 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50521 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130545 (thread 50521) ---- From: "Lew Soloway" Date: 2004-03-11 22:14:55 Subject: PAST SoCal Event: Austin Hardwoods Old Tool Swap Meet GG's -- I've been silent for a while, not even having much time to lurk. However, I wanted to make sure that the word got out (even though a bit late) about the latest swap meet in So Cal. March 13 is the next Old Tool Swap Meet at Austin Hardwoods & Hardware from 6AM-Noon. The address is 610 N Santiago St. in Santa Ana, CA. The parking lot is large with plenty of room for dealers and shoppers to park. Remember anyone can sell. Spaces cost $10.00 to cover advertising). For more information, call Drew Shellenbarger 714-450-2365. On the outside chance of rain, we have indoor space available to set up the swap meet. Hope to see you there. Regards, Lew Soloway in Sunny and Hot Southern California (SoCal) ++++ End of thread 50521 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50522 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130551 (thread 50522) ---- From: "Gary Greenberg" Date: 2004-03-12 07:47:41 Subject: Re: T-BAG Class Report - "Making a Marking Gauge" Paul Pedersen said: > > Brian writes : > >>http://home.earthlink.net/~bbuckner/Groupshot.jpg >> >>That's Gary on the right, David on the left (the fat, ugly guy in >>the middle is just some bum that wandered up ;^). > > Great post and a great picture. > > Paul (who'd forgotten what people looked like in shorts...) Brian left out many personal gloats, but I'd guess that's humility. Every shave & plane he and David displayed make very fine shavings on endgrain. They are awesome toolmakers; me -- just a GIT. Cheers, Gary ++++ End of thread 50522 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50523 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130552 (thread 50523) ---- From: Bruce Kantelis Date: 2004-03-12 05:30:44 Subject: Making aMarking Knife GG's Missed some of the early thread... Why would a galoot ever spend real money for a marking knife. An old hacksaw blade yields all kinds of useful little knives. Grind to shape, make a handle, saw it in half lengthwise, hollow a spot for the blade in one half, and in the modern fashion dab a bit of epoxy in there, clamp and bob's you're uncle. Regards, Bruce Kantelis ===== Regards, Bruce Kantelis CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 50523 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50524 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130555 (thread 50524) ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-03-12 09:54:18 Subject: More Plow plane of all Plow Planes GG's Wes reminded me that he has posted pics and information on my Israel White three arm plow plane. http://www.galootapalooza.org/white3arm01.htm This one was owned by Mr. Bernard Z. Burch of Logansport, IN. where he and his partner, Israel Neal. In 1850, these two men alone produced 100 tables, 30 bureaus, 50 _dozen_ chairs, and 50 beds ("Furniture Makers of Indiana"; B. L. Walters). That was an amazing output, IMHO, for a two man shop. So, for a goodly part of its life, this plane was used. More on the planes provenance and history is available on Wes's website (Thanks Wes!). I am currently doing more research on the history of this plane and its previous owners, and will post a follow-up when I have something of interest. Chris Berger Who's looking forward to a bit more shop time this coming week as West Lafayette, IN has been deserted by students headed for Spring Break ...... Yes, no doubt at least some of them will be "Gone Wild"! ++++ End of thread 50524 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50525 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130557 (thread 50525) ---- From: "Maddex, Peter" Date: 2004-03-12 15:08:20 Subject: Bio, Pete Maddex Hi, I understand I should post a Bio so here goes. Peter Michael Maddex age 45 married to Julie with two boys Sam Allan Maddex age 10 and Tom Oliver Maddex age 8 (there initials spell SAM and TOM). I work as a Computer Hardware Technician at the Nottingham Trent University but spend most of my time looking in skips etc to see what they have thrown out ;-) I have been interested in woodworking for a long time but recently the bug has bit hard. I do have some power tools but I understand you mustn't mention them here!!! I have 18 planes, 40 chisels and gouges 4 hand saws etc and us them to make everything from small boxes to beds and recently made a dovetailed shoulder plane. I do a bit of metal work=20 welding HiFi stands and also build amplifiers PSU etc. I ride a Kawasaki ZXR750J1 to fast. pete Peter Michael Maddex Mad Bad and Dangerous to Know Communications & IT Services The Nottingham Trent University Ext 2765 =20 ---- Start of Message 130559 (thread 50525) ---- From: "Kaye, Danny" Date: 2004-03-12 15:31:51 Subject: RE: Bio, Pete Maddex welcome pete, pull up a chair danny -----Original Message----- From: Maddex, Peter=20 Sent: 12 March 2004 15:08 To: oldtools Subject: [oldtools] Bio, Pete Maddex Hi, I understand I should post a Bio so here goes. Peter Michael Maddex age 45 married to Julie with two boys Sam Allan Maddex age 10 and Tom Oliver Maddex age 8 (there initials spell SAM and TOM). I work as a Computer Hardware Technician at the Nottingham Trent University but spend most of my time looking in skips etc to see what they have thrown out ;-) I have been interested in woodworking for a long time but recently the bug has bit hard. I do have some power tools but I understand you mustn't mention them here!!! I have 18 planes, 40 chisels and gouges 4 hand saws etc and us them to make everything from small boxes to beds and recently made a dovetailed shoulder plane. I do a bit of metal work=20 welding HiFi stands and also build amplifiers PSU etc. I ride a Kawasaki ZXR750J1 to fast. pete Peter Michael Maddex Mad Bad and Dangerous to Know Communications & IT Services The Nottingham Trent University Ext 2765 =20 ++++ End of thread 50525 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50526 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130558 (thread 50526) ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-03-12 10:09:06 Subject: Cleaning Terminology GG's, Given all the debate, about what is considered appropriate, when it comes to cleaning OldTools, is it possible, for example, that what I call a clean tool, may not be considered cleaning at all by another. Say I take out a plane, which I have cleaned to my personal taste. If I show that plane to Paul Pedersen , for example, since Paul was the last to comment, would Paul find my cleaned tool appropriate, or would he consider it overcleaned? If one were so inclined as to collec...ah... acquire, certain types of paper, there is what is known as an Owl scale, which is very definitive, through which one can grade the degree of whiteness (or yellowness) of the paper. Is there anywhere where examples are shown, of properly cleaned or uncleaned or overcleaned tools? I'm just not sure we are all talkin' about the same thing here. Just trying to understand the terminology. I'd love to attend a hands on discussion of OldTools concerning this topic, especially restoration techniques, but I am unaware of any such events, within reasonable travel distance. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, Massachusetts ---- Start of Message 130565 (thread 50526) ---- From: "Sanford Moss" Date: 2004-03-12 11:41:55 Subject: RE: Cleaning Terminology Al wrote: >Given all the debate, about what is considered appropriate, when it >comes to cleaning OldTools, is it possible, for example, that what I >call a clean tool, may not be considered cleaning at all by another. >Say I take out a plane, which I have cleaned to my personal taste. If I >show that plane to Paul Pedersen , for example, since Paul was the last >to comment, would Paul find my cleaned tool appropriate, or would he >consider it overcleaned? If one were so inclined as to collec...ah... >acquire, certain types of paper, there is what is known as an Owl >scale, which is very definitive, through which one can grade the degree >of whiteness (or yellowness) of the paper. Is there anywhere where >examples are shown, of properly cleaned or uncleaned or overcleaned >tools? I'm just not sure we are all talkin' about the same thing here. Al, There are all shades of meaning of the word "cleaning" in the oldtools world--from the "untouchables" to the Herb Kean's. Maybe the best primer is to be walked around during the preview at a tool auction. If you're going to be at Spicer's on March 27, I'd be happy to do just that with you. In general, if you go through a tool auction preview, and don't have to wash the grime from your hands afterward, I'd say the tools were "overcleaned." Spicer's also always has bunches of tools that have been refinished. These are not done to resell, but come from collections of folks (or their heirs) who have doted lots of attention on their collected pieces. That's the perogative of any collector. It generally is not too hard to see that a tool has been refinished, if you know what to look for. While planes are the biggest subject of refinishing (and it tends to hurt their value, methinks), dovetail and tenon saws run a close second. It amazes me sometimes, that refinished and refurbished saws seem to retain their value more than planes. Best, Sandy _________________________________________________________________ Create a Job Alert on MSN Careers and enter for a chance to win $1000! http://msn.careerbuilder.com/promo/kaday.htm?siteid=CBMSN_1K&sc_extcmp=- JS_JASweep_MSNHotm2 ---- Start of Message 130569 (thread 50526) ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-03-12 12:00:40 Subject: Re: Cleaning Terminology Sandy, Thanks, that's very generous of you. I may be at Spicer's. Problem is my wife is working Saturday afternoon at the hospital. So I would only be able to hang out for the morning. I wasn't planning on going because of that, but I may now. I am curious also as to why the NETCA doesn't meet more often. The last meeting I was aware of, was in mid October. I didn't attend do to work commitments, but had I known I would have to wait so long for another meeting, I would have shifted my agenda. Al Perreault > Al wrote: > > >Given all the debate, about what is considered appropriate, when it > >comes to cleaning OldTools, is it possible, for example, that what I > >call a clean tool, may not be considered cleaning at all by another. > >Say I take out a plane, which I have cleaned to my personal taste. If > >I show that plane to Paul Pedersen , for example, since Paul was the > >last to comment, would Paul > >find my cleaned tool appropriate, or would he consider it > >overcleaned? If one were so inclined as to collec...ah... acquire, > >certain types of paper, > >there is what is known as an Owl scale, which is very definitive, > >through which one can grade the degree of whiteness (or yellowness) > >of the paper. Is there anywhere where examples are shown, of properly > >cleaned or uncleaned or overcleaned tools? I'm just not sure we are > >all talkin' about the same thing here. > > Al, There are all shades of meaning of the word "cleaning" in the > oldtools world--from the "untouchables" to the Herb Kean's. Maybe the > best primer is > to be walked around during the preview at a tool auction. If you're > going to be at Spicer's on March 27, I'd be happy to do just that > with you. > > In general, if you go through a tool auction preview, and don't have > to wash > the grime from your hands afterward, I'd say the tools were > "overcleaned." Spicer's also always has bunches of tools that have > been refinished. These > are not done to resell, but come from collections of folks (or their heirs) > who have doted lots of attention on their collected pieces. That's the > perogative of any collector. It generally is not too hard to see that > a tool has been refinished, if you know what to look for. While planes > are the biggest subject of refinishing (and it tends to hurt their > value, methinks), dovetail and tenon saws run a close second. It > amazes me sometimes, that refinished and refurbished saws seem to > retain their value more than planes. > > Best, Sandy > > _________________________________________________________________ > Create a Job Alert on MSN Careers and enter for a chance to win $1000! > http://msn.careerbuilder.com/promo/kaday.htm?siteid=CBMSN_1K&sc_extcmp=- JS_JASweep_MSNHotm2 > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To > unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 130571 (thread 50526) ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-03-12 12:17:17 Subject: Re: Cleaning Terminology Al asked...." > Given all the debate, about what is considered appropriate, when it comes to > cleaning OldTools, is it possible, for example, that what I call a clean > tool, may not be considered cleaning at all by another. Say I take out a > plane, which I have cleaned to my personal taste. If I show that plane to > Paul Pedersen , for example, since Paul was the last to comment, would Paul > find my cleaned tool appropriate, or would he consider it overcleaned? ...... Is > there anywhere where examples are shown, of properly cleaned or uncleaned or > overcleaned tools? I'm just not sure we are all talkin' about the same > thing here. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Heres my take on this.....I clean lots of tools, first anyone that tells you that properly cleaning a tool hurts it's value needs to get out and sell some tools and they will soon find out how crazy that is.Never seen a dirty rusty tool sell for more then one that looked like it just came out of the original owners tool box.When I clean a tool the look I want is what I call a Clean tool that doesn't look like it has been cleaned. To me that is a clean but believable tool that looks like it's last careful owner oiled it, wrapped it up in paper and put in his tool chest where it sat for the last 70 years.Trouble people get into is when they take a plane that has seen moderate,[or worse!] use and try to make it look new.They think "Why if I only buff the hell out of that rusty, crappy, no. 2 Stanley I can turn it into a Mint no. 2 !". Cleaning should not be out of line with the condition of the rest of the plane. A plane that has seen lots of use and is a little rough will not have a tote that looks mint so when you refinish it to look like that it just sticks out and looks goofy.Same with a plane with 75% japanning but bright polished sides that look like it just came from the factory., Whats up with that? When you pick the plane up to look at it nothing should stands out that looks like it has been "monkeyed" with though the tool should be clean.Patina is not necessary the same as rust ,[or dirt] and I think in most cases the rust and dirt should be cleaned off if possible but done so that it doesn't look new or freshly done.Rarely you find a tool that hasn't seen much or any use but is dirty or has some surface rust from poor storage. A tool like this can be carefully cleaned up to "Near Mint" condition and when done you will still have a believable tool.I have taken over cleaned tools and rusted / aged them up to what they should look like as well.....I think if you clean the tool to what it looked the last time it was used by it's original owner in most cases that is what you want.When someone picks it up they should be thinking "where did he find such a clean , well preserved plane" and "not wonder how he cleaned that tool up".......Todd ---- Start of Message 130573 (thread 50526) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-12 12:35:31 Subject: Re: Cleaning Terminology Alan asks : > Given all the debate, about what is considered appropriate, when > it comes to cleaning OldTools, is it possible, for example, that > what I call a clean tool, may not be considered cleaning at all > by another. First off, I don't think anybody wants to own a tool that'll dirty your hands if you pick it up. Dirt is dirt and unless for some reason you want to keep the tool exactly in its as-found condition, it goes. What's left under the dirt, between it and the materials the tools is made of, is the tool's history, its story. You have to be receptive to it in order to extract any kind of good feeling from it. You have to want to feel something of what this tool went through in its life, what kind of people used it, what kind of work it performed, where it spent its life. What it looked liked while it went about its business of existing. Under this layer - the tool's patina - is the tool itself, and it too may off some pleasure from the way it was made, however long ago. A plane made 150 years ago does not look like one made yesterday, if you look closely enough. Small details were important then, not only functional but decorative as well. For instance, there was no functional requirement for a saw handle to be carved to look like it was made of clay, with the lower part of the grip stuck back on under the handle. Or for its other decorations like the horns, and ? (whatever you might call the various other little projections), and the wheat carving. An old tool in its new state might offer some charm, be a testimony of the society that produced it, but it has no life because it's had no life. Conversely, another old tool may be nothing much to look at, but by having been extensively modified during its existence may offer a whole lot of the pleasure of wondering what kind of world it saw during that period, what it went through, and with whom. I'd say that the proper way to clean a tool is to remove the dirt but to leave the history. Like many things, you have to do it to get a feeling for it. You have to over-polish brass to see that it might have looked better beforehand. My experience is that it is impossible to bring a used tool back to the state it was in when new. It's just not feasable to remove the patina (and dirt) from all the pits, nicks, nooks and crannies. And there's no way to refill all the pits and dents. What it'll look like is an old tool that's had its whole life wiped away. It's the same with old furniture. If one were to take an authentic old desk that's seen use for the last two hundred years and stripped, scraped and sanded it down to bare wood, then refinished it, would it look as nice ? All this may or may not interest you. Like art, if you don't start off with an open mind, if you don't want to find something in it, you'll fail to appreciate a lot of it. If all you're looking for is a tool that'll cut, and you're not interested in feeling any kind of continuity with the woodworkers of the past, then by all means scrape, grind and polish away. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130592 (thread 50526) ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-03-12 15:11:43 Subject: Re: Cleaning Terminology Sandy Moss wrote the best primer is > to be walked around during the preview at a tool auction. If you're going > to be at Spicer's on March 27, I'd be happy to do just that with you. Sandy, My plan is to be there for the tailgate and auction on Saturday. If it would be no problem I would like to take you up on your offer? Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sanford Moss" To: "oldtools" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 11:41 AM Subject: RE: [oldtools] Cleaning Terminology ++++ End of thread 50526 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50527 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130561 (thread 50527) ---- From: Roger Birkhead Date: 2004-03-12 10:14:32 Subject: Nomination for the poetic post of the month This is just poetic. It should be the first paragraph folks read on the FAQ page! Blake Ashley wrote: >SNIP< >I refuse to be in such a hurry that I squeeze the >aesthetic value out of everything to gain a few minutes of time - time >which will then just be filled with more rushing and more mass-produced, >soulless junk. > >In the drive to achieve instant gratification, we have spent a century >trying to shorten the learning curve and eliminate the chance of error >in every human activity. There is much good in this, but something has >been almost lost in the process. The Galoots are the guardians of that >which was almost lost: the challenge of trying to master a skill that >can never be fully mastered, the creative freedom that comes from >intimacy with a medium as complex as wood, the sense of self-sufficiency >that comes from knowing that you can make a useful object with tools so >simple that you can make the tools too, and the peaceful meditation of >trying to bring eye, hand and wood together into harmony through finess >and understanding rather than brute force. > >That is some of what I see on this list. > > > Thanks Blake! Roger in AL ---- Start of Message 130584 (thread 50527) ---- From: "Bretton Wade" Date: 2004-03-12 10:35:48 Subject: RE: Nomination for the poetic post of the month Beautiful quote dutifully forwarded to SWMBO for consideration next time she says, "when are you going to finish..." ---- Start of Message 130588 (thread 50527) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-12 19:05:16 Subject: re: Nomination for the poetic post of the month I second that nomination. Some great words there. There is so very much that must be learned in order to hand it down so that it will not be lost. Too much has already been lost. jerry ---- Start of Message 130600 (thread 50527) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-12 16:54:45 Subject: RE: Nomination for the poetic post of the month I guess I'll third the nomination especially since he just rephrased my motto I gave him in an OT response to the Stuck Chuck thread. For a long long time now my motto has been "Don't force it, finesse it." because I've seen force do more damage than good both to the item being worked on as well as the character of the person working on it. ---- Start of Message 130601 (thread 50527) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-12 16:02:35 Subject: RE: Nomination for the poetic post of the month Must have been someone else. All my chucks spin free. Especially my Yankee. >>> "John Sawchak" 03/12/2004 3:54:45 PM >>> I guess I'll third the nomination especially since he just rephrased my motto I gave him in an OT response to the Stuck Chuck thread. For a long long time now my motto has been "Don't force it, finesse it." because I've seen force do more damage than good both to the item being worked on as well as the character of the person working on it. ---- Start of Message 130603 (thread 50527) ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-03-12 15:29:34 Subject: Re: Nomination for the poetic post of the month Blake Ashley wrote: > Must have been someone else. All my chucks spin free. Especially my > Yankee. I've got a stuck chuck and Mr. Sawchuck did tell me to, "Finesse it, don't force it." But I didn't write the poetic post, Mr. Ashley did (msg 130560). Just to be clear. Cheers, Kyle Accardi ---- Start of Message 130604 (thread 50527) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-12 16:38:11 Subject: Re: Nomination for the poetic post of the month Mr. Sawchuck's "Finesse it, don't force it" is a good motto, to be sure. I wish I could always remember to follow it. I can't count the number of times I have had cause to regret forgetting it. It always seems so much easier to just do it one more time a . . . little . . . bit . . . harder . . . >>> Kyle Accardi 03/12/2004 4:29:34 PM >>> Blake Ashley wrote: > Must have been someone else. All my chucks spin free. Especially my > Yankee. I've got a stuck chuck and Mr. Sawchuck did tell me to, "Finesse it, don't force it." But I didn't write the poetic post, Mr. Ashley did (msg 130560). Just to be clear. Cheers, Kyle Accardi ---- Start of Message 130606 (thread 50527) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-03-12 16:22:01 Subject: Re: Nomination for the poetic post of the month On 12 Mar 2004 at 16:38, Blake Ashley wrote: > Mr. Sawchuck's "Finesse it, don't force it" is a good motto, to be sure. > I wish I could always remember to follow it. I can't count the number > of times I have had cause to regret forgetting it. It always seems so > much easier to just do it one more time a . . . little . . . bit . . . > harder . . . This is a depressing reminder of my recent first attempt at blind dovetails. I've made lots that went all the way through. As I was cleaning up the inside edge along the scribe line with a chisel and mallet, I managed to hit it so hard that it went all the way through the front of the piece. What's worse, there was a piece of curly cherry under it, as I was doing it indoors in the "media room" and didn't want to mess up the table. Since I wasn't going all the way through, I knew it would be safe to use the cherry as a base to work on. Luckily, it was the inside (or is now, anyway) of the cherry piece. I can attribute this to the fact that I've been getting up and sawing, splitting, and stacking wood every morning this winter, so I am much stronger than I used to be. While true, this is in all honesty just downright stupidity. For once, I actually had another piece of wood to replace the one I ruined. But it pays to be careful. Last night I managed the last of the blind dovetails without further incident, to my great relief. Luckily my wife was out of town at the time, for any number of reasons. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ++++ End of thread 50527 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50528 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130568 (thread 50528) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-03-12 08:59:50 Subject: FS: Stanley 42x sawset Since it is my goal to convert you all to saw sharpeners, I am always on the lookout for appropriate equipment to help you down the slope. Last weekend, I managed to turn up a Stanley 42X sawset at a yard sale. (See? It is possible.) This is pretty much what we saw nuts like to use as the go-to sawset. Much better than the normal 42 because of its two stage action - clamp onto the saw, then as you continue to squeeze the handle, push the plunger to bend the tooth. You know you want one. This one is pretty much like mine, except mine has more surface rust. But I'm used to it. Goes to the first galoot with $6 plus shipping, SOT terms. And while I've got your attention, there are now 21 entries in the oldtools booklist (see reference in my sig). Nineteen books and two videos, but I always appreciate more. Share your knowledge with your fellow galoots. And thanks to all those who have contributed reviews already. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 130572 (thread 50528) ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-03-12 09:24:15 Subject: Re: FS: Stanley 42x sawset Ken Greenberg wrote: > Since it is my goal to convert you all to saw sharpeners, I am always > on the lookout for appropriate equipment to help you down the > slope. > This is pretty much what we saw nuts like to use as the go-to sawset. Speaking of which, I aspire to saw sharpener and hope Mr. Law's video will soon be available on DVD. What do folks use for finer toothed saws? Grind down the pin? (To make it narrower). -- Kyle Accardi another sunny day in Portland, OR ---- Start of Message 130583 (thread 50528) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-12 18:34:28 Subject: re: FS: Stanley 42x sawset A couple weeks too late for me. I got one on e-bay for a bit more than the $6.00 plus shipping, so I can say that $6.00 is a most definite bargain. Jerry ---- Start of Message 130632 (thread 50528) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-13 18:42:20 Subject: RE: FS: Stanley 42x sawset What would be the total and where do I send the check? > [Original Message] > From: Ken Greenberg > To: oldtools > Date: 3/12/2004 11:05:39 AM > Subject: [oldtools] FS: Stanley 42x sawset > > Since it is my goal to convert you all to saw sharpeners, I am always > on the lookout for appropriate equipment to help you down the > slope. Last weekend, I managed to turn up a Stanley 42X sawset at > a yard sale. (See? It is possible.) This is pretty much what we saw > nuts like to use as the go-to sawset. Much better than the normal 42 > because of its two stage action - clamp onto the saw, then as you > continue to squeeze the handle, push the plunger to bend the tooth. > You know you want one. This one is pretty much like mine, except > mine has more surface rust. But I'm used to it. Goes to the first > galoot with $6 plus shipping, SOT terms. > > And while I've got your attention, there are now 21 entries in the > oldtools booklist (see reference in my sig). Nineteen books and two > videos, but I always appreciate more. Share your knowledge with > your fellow galoots. And thanks to all those who have contributed > reviews already. > > -Ken > > > > Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) > 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 > http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm > Visit the oldtools book list at > http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm > > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ++++ End of thread 50528 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50529 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130574 (thread 50529) ---- From: Joseph Baron Date: 2004-03-12 12:39:34 Subject: Re: Old Tools Book list (was FS: Stanley 42x sawset) Ken -- Your list is a great resource. Here are some suggestions for Galoot classics not currently included: Hand Tools: Their Ways and Workings by Aldren A. Watson Restoring, Tuning & Using Classic Woodworking Tools by Michael Dunbar The Workbench Book by Scott Landis The Complete Woodworker by Bernard E. Jones Woodworkers Bible by Bernard E. Jones I don't have time to write a review, but maybe someone else will be inspired... And their are many other classic books. (Ken's list is at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm) Regards, Joe _______________________________________________________ Joseph G. Baron Raleigh, NC ++++ End of thread 50529 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50530 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130575 (thread 50530) ---- From: Roger Date: 2004-03-12 11:45:19 Subject: Tool User Photo Since it is Friday and I am killing time, I though I would share this photo once again. I posted it to the list back in 1998 but I though some of the new folks might enjoy seeing it. I attended Berry College (WAY after this photo was taken) and got this photo while I was there. http://www.auburn.edu/~birkhrd/Woodworking&Tools/BerryShop1916.jpg It pictures the Berry High School shop crew of 1915-1916 from Mt. Berry, GA. Pictured are: Crisp Lee- shop foreman in center on top step Chester Swilling Claude Anderson Bascomb Sowels (?) Millard Ellington James Barnes Clarence Clive Others unidentifiable I count at least 33 old tools how many can you find? How many "trades" represented (i.e carpentry, plumbing, paint crew, etc) Enjoy! Roger Birkhead in AL ---- Start of Message 130578 (thread 50530) ---- From: "Daniel E.L. Yurwit" Date: 2004-03-12 13:17:58 Subject: Re: Tool User Photo > http://www.auburn.edu/~birkhrd/Woodworking&Tools/BerryShop1916.jpg > > It pictures the Berry High School shop crew of 1915-1916 from Mt. Berry, GA. GREAT photo, Roger. That one's a keeper. You don't mind if I print a copy, do you? Dan, in NJ......Heading out for Damascus (and hoping I don't have to drive through Beirut.) ---- Start of Message 130599 (thread 50530) ---- From: Scott Murman Date: 2004-03-12 14:20:18 Subject: Re: Tool User Photo i wonder if people in the next century will wonder why none of us wear hats... -SM- http://www.auburn.edu/~birkhrd/Woodworking&Tools/BerryShop1916.jpg ---- Start of Message 130605 (thread 50530) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-12 16:08:26 Subject: Re: Tool User Photo Hey Roger--- Say this IS fun...the guy at the far left appears to be a tobacconist---I can't get any real feeling for the tool in the light-color outfitted guy's hands---the fellow in the second row directly behind the pipefitter---he's got something about the size and shape of a paintbrush or a paint scraper, but doesn't click in my head on either...nice photo, without a doubt. It'd be great fun to nose around for the descendants of this crew....not a union button nor an American Flag in sight....it'd be different after the 'Great War'... thanks ever so; gAM in seattle --- Roger wrote: > Since it is Friday and I am killing time, I though I would share > this > photo once again. I posted it to the list back in 1998 but I > though > some of the new folks might enjoy seeing it. I attended Berry > College > (WAY after this photo was taken) and got this photo while I was > there. > > http://www.auburn.edu/~birkhrd/Woodworking&Tools/BerryShop1916.jpg > > It pictures the Berry High School shop crew of 1915-1916 from Mt. > Berry, GA. > Pictured are: > Crisp Lee- shop foreman in center on top step > Chester Swilling > Claude Anderson > Bascomb Sowels (?) > Millard Ellington > James Barnes > Clarence Clive > Others unidentifiable > > I count at least 33 old tools how many can you find? How many > "trades" > represented (i.e carpentry, plumbing, paint crew, etc) > Enjoy! > > Roger Birkhead in AL > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130613 (thread 50530) ---- From: rcallen@x... Date: 2004-03-12 21:04:20 Subject: Re: Tool User Photo Roger Birkhead writes: > Since it is Friday and I am killing time, I though I would share this > photo once again. Since we're sharing pictures I thought I would post about one I picked up at a tool meet. On the back is written "Front row left to right Ben Dubois, Chet Townsend, Fred Evans, Jim Evans, Jack Leishman Back row left to right C Henderson, T Cuthill, helper 1906" The seller lowered his price because of the writing. To me it made it more valuable. I'm not sure exactly what is depicted but since the photo is now mine they're all pattern makers. Anyone who says otherwise it itching for a fight :-) Russ Allen - who's having trouble picking out the coolest hat of the lot http://home.xnet.com/~rcallen/oldphoto.jpg ---- Start of Message 130618 (thread 50530) ---- From: "P J McBride" Date: 2004-03-14 01:17:10 Subject: RE: Tool User Photo GG's This pic was passed down through the x's in-laws family. It was taken by Wilf Henty a pay clerk on the railway construction around Walhalla, a gold mining area north east of here. He worked there for about 6 years around 1910. He courted me x's great, great aunt. They found a box full of pictures 25 years ago, and eventually they were published. http://www.petermcbride.com/axeman.jpg Now that is a fine hat AND an impressive moustache !! Regards, Peter In Melbourne, Australia. Roger Birkhead writes: > Since it is Friday and I am killing time, I though I would share this > photo once again. Russ Allen writes: ---- Start of Message 130657 (thread 50530) ---- From: Roger Birkhead Date: 2004-03-15 08:23:00 Subject: Re: Tool User Photo I always liked to think the fellow on the left had a harmonica in his hands. The other fellow I do believe does have a paint scraper in his hands. It is a sobering thought to realize that many of these fellows went off to France in the following years never to return, or at least forever changed. These boys came out of the mountains of North Georgia and got plunked down into one of the most horrific of wars: mechanized tanks, airplanes, long range artillery, chemical warfare... Glad I could share. Roger in AL gary may wrote: >Hey Roger--- > Say this IS fun...the guy at the far left appears to be a >tobacconist---I can't get any real feeling for the tool in the >light-color outfitted guy's hands---the fellow in the second row >directly behind the pipefitter---he's got something about the size >and shape of a paintbrush or a paint scraper, but doesn't click in my >head on either...nice photo, without a doubt. It'd be great fun to >nose around for the descendants of this crew....not a union button >nor an American Flag in sight....it'd be different after the 'Great >War'... > thanks ever so; gAM in seattle > > >--- Roger wrote: > > >>Since it is Friday and I am killing time, I though I would share >>this >>photo once again. I posted it to the list back in 1998 but I >>though >>some of the new folks might enjoy seeing it. I attended Berry >>College >>(WAY after this photo was taken) and got this photo while I was >>there. >> >>http://www.auburn.edu/~birkhrd/Woodworking&Tools/BerryShop1916.jpg >> >>It pictures the Berry High School shop crew of 1915-1916 from Mt. >>Berry, GA. >>Pictured are: >>Crisp Lee- shop foreman in center on top step >>Chester Swilling >>Claude Anderson >>Bascomb Sowels (?) >>Millard Ellington >>James Barnes >>Clarence Clive >>Others unidentifiable >> >> ++++ End of thread 50530 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50531 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130576 (thread 50531) ---- From: "Jason Knight" Date: 2004-03-12 12:44:45 Subject: woodrough and mcparlin Hello all, Still new to all of this, I'm trying to rescue some of my dad's old tools and learn something in the process. The current project is a Woodrough and McParlin saw (no, no panther on the handle). I've found online that this company was bought out by Disston in the 1890's, but that Disston continued using this name for some time. Is there any source similar to the Disstonian Institute page where I could find more info about this saw? I've only just begun to reveal the etching (Pop was apparently well into an experiment involving saws and the second law of thermodynamics...) so I don't have more info about the saw yet, except that it was made "expressly for Aver Hardware Co. Keokuk,Iowa" Thanks Jason ---- Start of Message 130585 (thread 50531) ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-03-12 13:42:58 Subject: Re: woodrough and mcparlin Jason/GG's, Those needing info on saws should look to acquire Erwin L. Schaffer's book "Handsaw Makers of North America." The above reference lists Woodrough and McParlin as Ohio (Cincinnati and Hamilton) saw makers, 1856 to 1893. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, Massachusetts Where it's snowing again. > Hello all, > Still new to all of this, I'm trying to rescue some of my dad's old tools > and learn something in the process. The current project is a Woodrough and > McParlin saw (no, no panther on the handle). I've found online that this > company was bought out by Disston in the 1890's, but that Disston > continued using this name for some time. Is there any source similar to > the Disstonian Institute page where I could find more info about this saw? > I've only just begun to reveal the etching (Pop was apparently well into > an experiment involving saws and the second law of thermodynamics...) so I > don't have more info about the saw yet, except that it was made "expressly > for Aver Hardware Co. Keokuk,Iowa" > > Thanks > > Jason > ---- Start of Message 130607 (thread 50531) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-12 16:38:04 Subject: Re: woodrough and mcparlin --- Alan Perreault wrote: > Jason/GG's, > Those needing info on saws should look to acquire Erwin L. > Schaffer's book "Handsaw Makers of North America." Hiya Al--- Erv's book also says, in the Disston Historical Summary under 1893: 'Absorbs "Wheeler, Madden and Clemson", "Woodrough & McParlin" and "Woodrough and Clemson" saw companies and includes "Richardson Brothers" and "Harvey W. Peace", to operate them all under a new enterprise called National Saw company, Newark N J.' Erv's notes on the "National Saw Company" make no mention of Disston, listing the component companies above, and saying that they made saws from 1890 to 1906, in Newark. Again, I gotta ask, is Woodrough pronounced like rough, though, through, cough, hiccough, lough (loch), or plough? best to all galoots; gAM in seattle "Do I know what a rhetorical question is?" Homer Simpson __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130608 (thread 50531) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-12 17:20:38 Subject: Re: woodrough and mcparlin I am probably all wet on this, but I pronounce it as "Wood-ruff." On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 04:38 PM, gary may wrote: > --- Alan Perreault wrote: > > Again, I gotta ask, is Woodrough pronounced like rough, though, > through, cough, hiccough, lough (loch), or plough? > best to all galoots; gAM in seattle > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130612 (thread 50531) ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-03-12 18:41:10 Subject: Re: woodrough and mcparlin --- gary may wrote: > Again, I gotta ask, is Woodrough pronounced like > rough, though, through, cough, hiccough, lough (loch), or plough? I always assumed it was "Wood-row"--never gave a thought to any other pronunciation. Of course, I spent a lot of summers of my youth near Woodruff, WI, so I knew how "Wood-rough" is spelled . Jim Erdman, in Menomonie, WI, who has wondered since he was in his teens how to pronounce "Velocette", the (famous) British motorcycle ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 50531 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50532 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130579 (thread 50532) ---- From: Ted Shuck Date: 2004-03-12 12:14:47 Subject: Cleaning saws and side bead planes - two epiphanies In the last couple of weeks, I have had two epiphanies. The first one was a result of frustrations I have had sawing dovetails with my old 10", Disston #4 backsaw. I had left the blade with the "nice dark patina", having only cleaned it with WD-40 and steel wool, then sharpened and set it. It never sawed smoothly. It would stick and grab after I had gotten half an inch into the wood. I remembered a posting by Bugbear where he described how he polished his saw blades and claimed that they worked better. (Sorry, can't find the reference in the archives.) So, patina be d*mned, I polished the saw blade. Started with 220 grit and worked up to 600, with a final polish of 2000. The small pits in the blade showed up now, but I could see reflections around them. A coat of wax, then a test cut showed that it was a *major* improvement. The saw now glides smoothly. I think a distinction must be made between a saw with a DULL dark patina and a SHINY dark pantina. This saw was dull. IMHO, if the saw is dull, it needs more cleaning, if you intend to use it. The second one was with a 5/8" side bead plane that I recently bought from Sandy Moss (Thanks Sandy!). I had only used my Stanley #45 to make beads of this size before, a very slow process. The woody side bead was a joy to use, zip zip zip. A nice smooth bead. I did one for comparison with the #45, and not only did it take twice as long to make, but the wood finish was not nearly as smooth and clear. I'm sold! One odd side effect using the side bead plane on a scrap of hard maple, was that I kept getting a smell of burning wood. I have never gotten this with any other plane, but the smell seemed correlated directly with when I was planing. I could not see any burnt marks on the wood and the iron stayed cool. Has anybody else experienced this? Ted, happily sawing and making side beads... ---- Start of Message 130581 (thread 50532) ---- From: Joshua Clark Date: 2004-03-12 13:32:39 Subject: Re: Cleaning saws and side bead planes - two epiphanies Absolutely! I try to apply a bit of wax to the soles of my wooden planes during use to reduce friction, but as it wears off I get this burning wood smell.. I've noticed the same smell planing different types of wood, so it must be the beech in the plane. -Josh in CT- On Mar 12, 2004, at 1:14 PM, Ted Shuck wrote: > > > One odd side effect using the side bead plane on a scrap > of hard maple, was that I kept getting a smell of burning > wood. I have never gotten this with any other plane, but > the smell seemed correlated directly with when I was > planing. I could not see any burnt marks on the wood and > the iron stayed cool. Has anybody else experienced this? > > > ---- Start of Message 130582 (thread 50532) ---- From: "Arthur Bailey" Date: 2004-03-12 12:59:50 Subject: RE: Cleaning saws and side bead planes - two epiphanies Ted says: A coat of wax, then > a test cut showed that it was a *major* improvement. You didn't mention waxing the first time you cleaned, sharpened and set. Could this be why it was binding? I had the same problem with the last saw I rehabbed, and I used a Tom Law trick, which is to hit the saw with a few strokes of a parrafin candle on each side. Cut like a champ after that, and let's just say it's "heavily patinaed". Art Bailey Queens, NY. ---- Start of Message 130587 (thread 50532) ---- From: Ted Shuck Date: 2004-03-12 12:58:55 Subject: RE: Cleaning saws and side bead planes - two epiphanies Art asked: > You didn't mention waxing the first time you cleaned, sharpened and set. > Could this be why it was binding? I did wax it before while it was patina'd, at first with paste wax, when I first tidied it up, then regularly with paraffin while using it. I really think that the smoother blade makes a big difference with or without the wax. Another advantage is that I can use the reflection of the board in the blade to determine if the saw is perpendicular. I had read about this trick before, but was never able to use it with the dull (patina'd) saw. Ted ++++ End of thread 50532 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50533 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130580 (thread 50533) ---- From: "Lamar keeney" Date: 2004-03-12 13:28:20 Subject: 2 cents worth of cleaning Went rust hunting yesterday at the local flea market, came home with a handful of mostly rust.Nothing to gloat about, few bits for my brace,six in. square, and a couple of Keystone socket chisels (whith i'm not familar with the name.) Since these are to be users i put them in a pan and used cider vinager to soke them in,and wondered if any one else uses this. pretty bio safe, but should you decide to try this beware of leaving cast iron to long, it will eat it up. time varies to the amount of rust, generaly six to ten hours. Remove and clran with water and soft brush. The second techquie i use for cleanig small brass is Texas Pete hot sauce, Simply apply, and let sit five to ten minutes, wipe or rinse.It't pretty good on eggs too. A good substitute for diamond paste, that i use to polish my irons is a product made by 3M called Perfect-It 111 Machine Glaze. I use it on a piece of marble tile i had laying around. Gives a nice mirror finish. It also works good on brass. The back side is that it cones in quarts size.I've done a couple of autos with it and still have more left than i'll use along time to come. Guess this should have came under the "when you think you heard it all" dept. Thanks to all for the earlier welcomes to the list. Lamar _________________________________________________________________ Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar – includes FREE pop-up blocking! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ ---- Start of Message 130593 (thread 50533) ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-03-12 15:17:37 Subject: Re: 2 cents worth of cleaning Lamar Keeney wrote i put them in a pan and used cider vinegar to > soke them in,and wondered if any one else uses this. lamar, I use white vinegar and salt, but, I am going to try the electrolysis method soon. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ++++ End of thread 50533 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50534 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130586 (thread 50534) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-12 18:39:06 Subject: Bio: Jerry Palmer I think I gave a semi-bio in another post, but at days away from the big 50, the mind don't always remember as well as it used to, well, except for important stuff like where I put all them screws and such on the #5 I disassembled last night. Anyway, not a complete neanderthal yet, but find myself using man powered methods and tools more often all of the time. Retired back in 1998 after 20 years as a police officer, the last ten or so of which were spent investigating white collar type crimes. But the pension wasn't enought to support my tool habit so I moved 600 miles and started a second carreer. Finally an empty nester so with three incomes and no kids to support (well not full time anyway) I can finally afford to get regular tool fixes. Started off with some old metal and transitional planes and more recently have dipped into the handsaw pool. That sucker is real deep. And then there are the shaves and scraper planes and rules and marking gauges and bevels and . . . Of course, you gotta have the right stuff to sharpen and set all them saws, so I've gotten a couple vises, and sets and got a saw jointer in the other day. Beats hav'n that flat file slide off the blade impaling my digits on the saw teeth. Things I have recently discovered... It is much easier to rough saw long workpieces with a handsaw than it is to fight them across a tailed t@b... s@w... You can edge joint pieces much quicker with a #7 than you can set up a jointing rig with a 'lectric p*wered tool. A good quality sharp handsaw is a joy to use, especially if it is at least 100 years young and has some of the skill of its previous owners in it still. ---- Start of Message 130590 (thread 50534) ---- From: "Pete Bergstrom" Date: 2004-03-12 13:09:00 Subject: Re: Bio: Jerry Palmer "Jerry Palmer" wrote: > A good quality sharp handsaw is a joy to use, especially if it is at least 100 years young and has some of the skill of its previous owners in it still. Whoops, I misread 'skill' to have a 'u' in it and thought, "now there's an interesting way to post a bio." :) Welcome aboard!! Pete ++++ End of thread 50534 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50535 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130589 (thread 50535) ---- From: Ted Shuck Date: 2004-03-12 13:07:39 Subject: RE: Cleaning saws and side bead planes - two epiphanie s Josh responds to my query about the smell of burning wood while planing: > Absolutely! I try to apply a bit of wax to the soles of my wooden > planes during use to reduce friction, but as it wears off I get this > burning wood smell.. I've noticed the same smell planing different > types of wood, so it must be the beech in the plane. I had a coat of paste wax on the whole plane, but that's not very durable. I will try with paraffin tonight and see if that makes a difference. Thanks for the suggestion. Ted ++++ End of thread 50535 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50536 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130591 (thread 50536) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-12 19:32:54 Subject: Manufacturer Tool Instructions The post earlier mentioning the recommended reading list brought to mind something I have spent quite a bit of time on the net in search of. That being manufacturers instructions and catalogs and that sort of information for different tools. I have come across some on the net that have been scanned in but they are spread all over the place, a few here a few there. Stan Faullin of Tool Trip used to have several, and the Disstonian Institute has a number of catalogs and such that are very informative. I have purchased a few old originals and some photocopies here and there. The originals are valuable for their antiquity, but something just doesn't seem right about paying for photocopies from other than the original printer of the pamplets and such. Does anyone know of a place on the net that has these available for download? If not, it might be a good project for someone here to do, and I would be happy to provide the effort and web space to do so. I have a few, as I said before, and would be happy to recieve scanned images from anyone else who might have others which I could post to my web site for all to see and use. My site is not commercial and I sell nothing. I give away free advice (and we all know how much that is worth) from my own experiences along with some darn good articles on hand tool useage reprinted with permission of the author, a professional furniture/cabinet maker/ finish carpenter of some 40 years. Anyway, just a thought. ---- Start of Message 130596 (thread 50536) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-03-12 13:18:19 Subject: Re: Manufacturer Tool Instructions On 12 Mar 2004 at 19:32, Jerry Palmer wrote: > If not, it might be a good project for someone here to do, and I would > be happy to provide the effort and web space to do so. I have a few, > as I said before, and would be happy to recieve scanned images from > anyone else who might have others which I could post to my web site > for all to see and use. My site is not commercial and I sell nothing. I give away free advice (and we all know how much that is worth) from my own experiences along with some darn good articles on hand tool useage reprinted with permission of the author, a professional furniture/cabinet maker/ finish carpenter of some 40 years. Making catalogs and instruction sheets available is a fine idea, but please keep in mind that some of these documents (the reprints, specifically) are copyrighted material. Just make sure before putting any of these up that the copyright has expired, and that a reprint isn't available. There are many people who do us all a great service my making old tools information available. Martyl Pollak is one of them, at Astragal Press. If you give away for free what she makes a living selling, you are "taking bread off her table." If Astragal Press ever goes away, there will never be an AWP5 and we will all be worse off for it. Similarly, people like Stan have done us all great service by putting these things on their own web sites. Certainly no one ought to be copying any of that stuff to their own sites. Stan is justifiably touchy about such things. A good approach to this would be to put together a central web page with links to on-line versions of catalogs and manuals provided by others. That way, you would only need to go to one place to find all the catalogs and instruction sheets that we know of, by following the links. I would even recommend that there be links to type studies, such as Ralph's gage pages. I keep copies of electronic versions of catalogs that I reference often on my system, since I might have a tool emergency when my wife is using the net connection. Also, I have a hard time remembering where all these things are - too many saved URLs, I guess. So a central directory of catalogs would help me quite a bit. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 130597 (thread 50536) ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-03-12 13:21:25 Subject: Re: Manufacturer Tool Instructions Jerry Palmer wrote: > Does anyone know of a place on the net that has these available for download? > > If not, it might be a good project for someone here to do, and I would be > happy to provide the effort and web space to do so. I've been thinking the same thing, it would be nice to have a repository of scanned material. I even have one to contribute should this happen: the rascally Stanley #95 butt gauge. Everyone seems to use Acrobat (pdf), but there are better alternatives, namely DjVu , but it doesn't seem to have caught on much. -- Kyle Accardi ---- Start of Message 130620 (thread 50536) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-13 15:31:44 Subject: Re: Manufacturer Tool Instructions Yeah, I've come across a lot of stuff on the net that wasn't important at the time, but then later became so. I am reluctant to ad a bunch more links in my Favorites as they are such a mess now that I can't find anything. I was just over at Stan's site and all of the manual links I checked were dead and I had corresponded with him some time back and I think he mentioned there had been some problems with some of the stuff. I've also bought a couple things from Astragal and wouldn't step on toes there, but I got really irked some time back over someone selling photocopies of Stanley instructions on e-bay. You didn't know they were photocopies unless you read real carefully. I guess it is a caseopf buyer beware. The link idea might be a good one. ---- Start of Message 130673 (thread 50536) ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-03-15 09:29:56 Subject: Re: Manufacturer Tool Instructions Jerry Palmer wrote: > The post earlier mentioning the recommended reading > list brought to mind something I have spent quite a > bit of time on the net in search of. That > being manufacturers instructions and catalogs > and that sort of information for different tools. These are great source of partial information. The only caveat is that catalog(u)es and manuals tend to gloss over difficulties and the wiles needed to overcome them. They tend to emphasise "ease of use", even when it's absent :-) BugBear ++++ End of thread 50536 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50537 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130594 (thread 50537) ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-03-12 15:22:31 Subject: Info Wanted on Stanley Toolbox I put some pics of a Stanley toolbox on my webste for a friend. He would like to know more about this box and mat be interested in selling it. Any info you can give would be appreciated. http://members.cox.net/wcrittner/Toolbox%201.jpg http://members.cox.net/wcrittner/Toolbox%202.jpg http://members.cox.net/wcrittner/Toolbox%203.jpg http://members.cox.net/wcrittner/Toolbox%204.jpg Thanks for any help. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ++++ End of thread 50537 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50538 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130595 (thread 50538) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-12 13:00:04 Subject: Re: Old Tools Book list My old favorite Edwin Tunis's, Colonial Craftsmen It covers a very wide spectrum of colonial societys crafts. Not exactly succinct on any of them, but enough to whet your whistle in a big way. Anybody up for wigmaking? No?? OK then, how about anchor casting/forging in pre-steam times. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130598 (thread 50538) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-03-12 13:23:28 Subject: Re: Old Tools Book list On 12 Mar 2004 at 13:00, scott grandstaff wrote: > > My old favorite > Edwin Tunis's, Colonial Craftsmen Not to pick on Scott here, but a gentle reminder that last time "suggestions for inclusion on the galoot book list" came up, we were told by the list moms to take it off line. Y'all are free to talk about old tool books all you want, I guess. Perhaps it will inspire someone to write a review or two. Me, I'm only looking for completed reviews :-). -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ++++ End of thread 50538 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50539 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130602 (thread 50539) ---- From: "Lamar keeney" Date: 2004-03-12 18:28:12 Subject: RE: the plow plane ol all I just wish i had that much money to invest in my shop, could buy alot of rust. _________________________________________________________________ One-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – download MSN Toolbar now! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ ++++ End of thread 50539 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50540 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130609 (thread 50540) ---- From: "John Pesut" Date: 2004-03-12 20:32:07 Subject: What I did today (Slick cover) G.G.'s, I was getting the ride-around-in-back-of-van toolbox in shape for the anticipated "drop your keyboard and come out and play, we're timber framing this afternoon" season. ( I love *those* phone calls.) Anyway, I needed a cover for my slick. A quick trip down to the local Army-Navy store and a couple of bucks later I was set. It worked out so nice I thought I'd share; http://home.att.net/~the_tinker/oldtools/040312snap0048.jpg http://home.att.net/~the_tinker/oldtools/040312snap0047.jpg That's a Vietnam era .45 acp magazine pouch. I removed the Alice pack clips from the back and cut the stitching out from between the pockets, tied a leather thong to it and Bob's yer uncle. Oh yeah, I did put a folded piece of leather down inside against the edge for some added protection. Later, ---- Start of Message 130623 (thread 50540) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-13 11:03:04 Subject: RE: What I did today (Slick cover) John Pesut said: > Anyway, I needed a cover for my slick. A quick trip down to the > local Army-Navy store and a couple of bucks later I was set. There might be a lesson here for the folks in the high humidity areas wanting to avoid rust. I have several of the snap shut ammo boxes that I use for various tool storage. They have a watertight seal and the boxtop has a hinge that allows it to be totally removed without any tools. First thing I always do when I get one, because they're surplus, is put a piece of paper in it and take it to the shower/bathtub to make sure the watertight seal is still working. The two smallest sizes could be great for chisels and even block planes. They make them large enough that even a full sized jointer plane would fit. They make super duty carrying cases if you have to take delicate items out and about. I spray them different colors for easy access. I know this is a little off topic but I even used one as a camera case when I used to do lots of river canoeing. The watertight camera cases were very spendy and the 50 cal ammo case fit just perfectly plus extra space for lenses, filters, film, and lens cleaning kit. With the strong handle I could tie it to the canoe crosspiece and if we ever flipped it wouldn't get lost, wet, or damaged. The ammo cases are stronger than anything for the camera I could find at about one tenth of the price. ++++ End of thread 50540 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50541 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130610 (thread 50541) ---- From: "William West" Date: 2004-03-13 01:35:31 Subject: Junkyard / anteek maul gloat Galoots, Was going to go to a flea market this morning but the weather here made it too far to travel for probobly too little reward so...... I decided not to waste the day off and do a little rust hunting locally (a hotbed of Anteek mauls dotting the local highway) One of these is, shall we say, a little worse than Fred Sandford's home on a GOOD day. Just what I look for. I was in the mood for some digging around. I immediately went to it, pawing around in endless boxes of hinges, nails, tool parts... you get the idea. After about 45 minutes I was happy to come away with a nice Stanley Sweetheart "100 plus" claw hammerhead and an 8" throw No. 966 Stanley Sweetheart brace (no frills brace) About ready to check out, digging for my wallet with rust covered hands, when I spy a plastic barrel immediately to my right. I peer down into it, and um... it's filled to the brim with saws. I drop the hammer and brace and pull them all out. The usual Warran and Ted schlep, a few beat up D-8's and one saw with the handle painted black. It has nickel plated sawnuts. The etch is visible, and up towards the handle is an Eagle! A D-15 Victory saw, 9 TPI, in great shape (other than the layer of paint on the handle) The damage for the saw, brace, and hammer? 5 bucks. I can't wait, of course to get the saw home and clean it up. an hour or so later, some light steel wool on the blade, stripped the paint off the handle, applied a coat of wax, Viola! I love when persistance pays off! -Wm. West ---- Start of Message 130670 (thread 50541) ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-03-15 09:23:14 Subject: Re: Junkyard / anteek maul gloat William West wrote: > I love when persistance pays off! Keep rolling the dice, and you'll get a double six, natural twenty, or 01 critical eventually (*) BugBear (*) select acccording to purpose of dice throwing :-) ++++ End of thread 50541 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50542 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130614 (thread 50542) ---- From: Mark Marsay Date: 2004-03-13 11:35:54 Subject: Online furniture/design reference books Not totally old tools related, but I guess we do use some of these tools! http://libtext.library.wisc.edu/DLDecArts/ contains several classic design books as page images, including Hepplewhite's and Chippendale's books, and a nice Stickley book on Craftsman homes. Figured it was worth a pointer! Regards, Mark Marsay, Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. ++++ End of thread 50542 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50543 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130615 (thread 50543) ---- From: "Bill Ghio" Date: 2004-03-13 07:05:44 Subject: Disston saw manual on -line I know Rose Antiques has been mentioned before, but for you saw aficionado's they have a complete 1918 Disston catalog on-line at: http://www.roseantiquetools.com/id59.html ++++ End of thread 50543 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50544 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130616 (thread 50544) ---- From: tomthornton Date: 2004-03-13 07:27:16 Subject: Cean tools Clean Defined - the removal of material foreign from the article Most all metals react with plain air, 'patina' I have IMO over cleaned a plane, and looking at it year later realized the normal reaction to the room returned a gentle patina. So unless you do wrap your tools in oiled paper I think time & normal oxidation will return any overly cleaned metals. -- Tom Thornton Cincinnati #3, Morristown N.J. USA Collector of old tools, specializing in Hand Cranked Grindstones ++++ End of thread 50544 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50545 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130617 (thread 50545) ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-03-13 07:53:08 Subject: Old tools I won't see at PATINA - sigh Sigh. After missing the MWTCA meet in York, PA - I started looking forward to making the trip to Damascus this March... I was dreaming of the tools I would get as well as looking forward to meeting some other Galoots. But, low and behold, at the last minute this week I had to run off to a customer in Atlanta for a couple of days. Upon my return, it just didn't seem fair to my family to blow out of town for most of Saturday (and I am not sure I was up to the 3 hour drive right now as well) - so here I sit at home thinking about all the tools I won't get to see.... sigh. I am looking forward to a full report. Just don't rub it in too hard. Oh well, there is always the CRAFTS spring auction in April which is much closer to my house. http://www.craftsofnj.org/springauction/auction%20page.htm Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 130619 (thread 50545) ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-03-13 07:21:59 Subject: Re: Old tools I won't see at PATINA - sigh --- Bruce Love wrote: > Upon my return, it > just didn't seem fair to my > family to blow out of town for most of Saturday (and You mean to tell me that you don't take your family along? How are you going to get kids interested in old tools, etc., if they don't go to tool meetings or shows with dad? ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130622 (thread 50545) ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-03-13 11:26:40 Subject: Re: Old tools I won't see at PATINA - sigh > > > Upon my return, it > > just didn't seem fair to my > > family to blow out of town for most of Saturday (and > > You mean to tell me that you don't take your family > along? How are you going to get kids interested in > old tools, etc., if they don't go to tool meetings or > shows with dad? > Actually, GIT#1 (who is six) has now become my buddy for hitting flea markets and auctions. People are often amused when he walks up to a table and starts identifying tools. Problem with today was that "Friend's Birthday Parties" trump "old tools" so I was to be on my own... Bruce Love ++++ End of thread 50545 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50546 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130621 (thread 50546) ---- From: "Tod Herrli" Date: 2004-03-13 11:10:57 Subject: LFOD Indy Good galoots, I wanted to post another event taking place in Indianapolis the same weekend this auction is taking place. On Saturday the 27th of March I'll be teaching a coffin smoothing plane class in the Indianapolis Woodcraft store 7330 E. 86th st. 888-803-wood. It's an all day class and it's only a few miles North of the auction. If you'd like some variety, come and make a coffin smoother with me. I'll see some of you on Friday night! Thanks Tod Herrli Mississinew Valley Workshop "If you make a mistake, put ebony on it"! ++++ End of thread 50546 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50547 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130624 (thread 50547) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-13 13:27:32 Subject: (Shiny does pay) Esteemed Galoots: We've just about beaten this one to death but the subject did deserve a reality check. Tom Thornton said: >"Clean Defined - the removal of material foreign from the article. Most all metals react with plain air, 'patina'. I >have IMO over cleaned a plane, and looking at it year later realized the normal reaction to the room returned a >gentle patina.So unless you do wrap your tools in oiled paper I think time & normal oxidation will return any overly >cleaned metals." Like I previously said . . . the art expert on the Antiques Road Show told the elderly women her painting was worth $25,000, but if she would have it cleaned and restored, the value would go up to $35,000. Now suppose she did that, held on to it for years, passed it on to her children, and they passed it on to the grandchildren who took it back to the road show. Now the art expert would say, "Hmmm. Nice painting. Worth about $35,000. But, if you would have it cleaned and restored it would be valued at about $45,000". The Stanley No. 4's and 5's are plentiful and maybe worth $10 - $15. But SHINY ones are worth more, not less. Here is another one just sold today. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3279473289&category=13874. There is nothing special about this one. No patent dates are mentioned. No sweetheart logos. Just a run of the mill plane that is SHINY. I asked the seller to what extent this one had been cleaned and restored and got the answer I thought I would. He didn't respond. So for me it is clear. If it's a keeper. . . I clean the heck out of it until I like the look. If I were a seller, and had the time, clean the heck out of it and make the proper disclosures. If it's a No. 1 or 2, be very careful but clean it and give it a lot of oxygen to restore the patina. Of Course Shiny Does Pay! Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana where our first Robin appeared at 10:20 a.m. today. > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130626 (thread 50547) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-13 16:43:33 Subject: Re: (Shiny does pay) Funny, but I can make out what looks like the line of a tote repair in the usual place. Doesn't mention that...is that black re-paint or japanning? ---- Original message ---- >Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 13:27:32 -0800 From: "Richard J. Hucker" > Subject: [oldtools] (Shiny does pay) To: "oldtools" > > >Esteemed Galoots: > >We've just about beaten this one to death but the subject did deserve a >reality check. > >Tom Thornton said: > >>"Clean Defined - the removal of material foreign from the >>article. Most >all metals react with plain air, 'patina'. I >>have IMO over cleaned a plane, and looking at it year later >>realized the >normal reaction to the room returned a >>gentle patina.So unless you do wrap your tools in oiled paper I >>think time >& normal oxidation will return any overly >>cleaned metals." > >Like I previously said . . . the art expert on the Antiques Road Show >told the elderly women her painting was worth $25,000, but if she would >have it cleaned and restored, the value would go up to $35,000. Now >suppose she did that, held on to it for years, passed it on to her >children, and they passed it on to the grandchildren who took it back >to the road show. Now the art expert would say, "Hmmm. Nice painting. >Worth about $35,000. But, if you would have it cleaned and restored it >would be valued at about $45,000". > >The Stanley No. 4's and 5's are plentiful and maybe worth $10 - $15. >But SHINY ones are worth more, not less. Here is another one just sold >today. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&item=3279473289&category=13874. >There is nothing special about this one. No patent dates are mentioned. >No sweetheart logos. Just a run of the mill plane that is SHINY. I >asked the seller to what extent this one had been cleaned and restored >and got the answer I thought I would. He didn't respond. > >So for me it is clear. If it's a keeper. . . I clean the heck out of >it until I like the look. If I were a seller, and had the time, clean >the heck out of it and make the proper disclosures. If it's a No. 1 or >2, be very careful but clean it and give it a lot of oxygen to restore >the patina. > >Of Course Shiny Does Pay! > >Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana where our first Robin >appeared at 10:20 a.m. today. > >> Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >> unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >> http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ++++ End of thread 50547 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50548 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130625 (thread 50548) ---- From: "Andy Chappell-Dick" Date: 2004-03-13 15:22:57 Subject: any knowledge of Anthony Hay Shop at Williamsburg? Greetings, Williamsburg's Anthony Hay Cabinet Shop is mentioned with esteem in the archives. Are there any galoots present who have more than a visitor's knowledge of this operation? I'm looking to talk with someone who has worked there, visited numerous times, or heck, just lives nearby. Ping me off list. Thanks! Andy Chappell-Dick Bluffton, OH ++++ End of thread 50548 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50549 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130627 (thread 50549) ---- From: "Mike Guenther" Date: 2004-03-13 21:54:31 Subject: Minor tool gloat Whilst I was busy at work today putting down about 300 feet of Oak shoe mold, Swmbo went to an auction. Along with a couple of box lots of stuff, she bought me a Stanley type 16 No. 3C with original box. The only apologies being a couple of minor scratches on the bottom near the toe, a couple of paint splotches on the box lid, and a couple of the box corners have the reinforcing tape starting to come loose. Except for the scratches, the plane hardly looks used. Perhaps it's been honed once. You think $12.50 was too much to pay? I wish I had been there, though. She passed on a Columbian WWing vise new in box. It went for 20 bucks. Mike Guenther in S. Carolina...Did I mention that it was bright and shiny? ++++ End of thread 50549 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50550 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130628 (thread 50550) ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-03-13 17:10:59 Subject: PATINA Report 2004 Had the usual great time at PATINA this morning. Would have been nicer had I thought to take gloves, as it was very cold in the early morning. Tom and I didn't make the decision to go down until Friday afternoon, so neither one of us took any tools to sell. It was a real feeling of freedom to just wander the parking lot and not have to worry about tending a table. I wasn't looking for much in particular and only bought a few things that were very cheap or sorta nice. It was the usual story with prices varying greatly between sellers. Tom picked up a Millers Falls No 11 (wider than average smoother plane similar to a Stanley 4 1/2, Jeff) for $15. Tom's is in great user condition with original, unrusted, finishes but a replacement blade. Two tables down a guy was asking for $75 for one in badly rusted condition. Once again, lots of the bog common benchplanes priced at the highwater mark of 2-3 years ago got packed up and taken back home with the sellers who won't pay attention to weak benchplane prices. From the parking lot I snagged some handleless Stanley chisels and a YANKEE 2101A-12in brace for gloatable prices. Spent some time rummaging through boxes of a guy I later was told was Clarke Green. I was very happy to go inside to the heat and dealers tables. Quickly snapped up a YANKEE #41Y pushdrill with every compartment filled with fluted bits (including two 1/16" bits), a Goodell-Pratt No 188A pushdrill with 6 X-shanked drill bits, and a nicely refinished H. Chapin 2-foot/4-fold rule, for very gloatable prices. Spent some time wandering the tables with Charlie Driggs, Chris Shwartz, and Todd Hughes. Said hello to John Wilson (Delaware Galoot Emeritus), Tony Seo, Tom Dugan, Joe Rodgers, and Tom Law. Charlie found a guy who has a plane at home made by one of his ancestors, but he is unwilling to sell it to him. Charlie nudged me into buying a box of small stones which included a tapered point and a couple of white translucent squares. Conversely, Chris hip-checked me away from buying the Pike Lily White stone I have always wanted. Which reminds me of my favorite moment of the day. I was walking back over to parking lot at the same time as Chris and noticed him carrying a nice brass bound brace (similar to an ultimatum brace, Jeff) and started making a big deal of it. The dealer at the nearby table said with with some concern, "You're not going to USE that are you?" Chris shot back, "I sure am, it's not like it's an ebony one." Two steps later he rethought and said, "What the hell, I'd use an ebony one too." If you could only have seen the look on the dealer's face. Ah, the ying and yang of collectors and users! I'd like to make a comment on the recent cleaning thread. There was, to me, a stark example of the confusion about not cleaning tools exibited at PATINA today. A Disston #112 with a refinished handle and an electrozaped blade that had removed the etching. The asking price was $250, an understandable price for one in mint condition. It was still there when we left. I would be amazed if anyone knowledgeable had paid that high a price. It looked otherwise in great shape, great USER shape. But collectors value the original finishes. They value the original crisp edges between adjacent surfaces. Buffing always screws up finishes and crisp edges. A cleaned tool will never get the same price of a tool in mint condition. I think many people get confused about what tools are collectible and should therefore not be cleaned. A good reading of the preface to John Walter's Stanley Price Guide will show that not ALL tools are collectable. They MUST be in a condition that collectors are interested in, and that does not include the majority of tools found at fleamarkets and garage sales. Once a tool is beat up and rusty, it loses collector value (except for the rarities). Beat up and rusty planes can (and should) be cleaned up and tuned up to bring a little more money to a buyer interested in using it. You make a little extra money cleaning the tool by saving the new buyer the time of doing it himself. Confusing the admonition not to clean collectable tools with a universal "Never clean any tools", is unfounded, yet common. But there is irrational exuberance in expecting a cleaned tool to bring anywhere near the price of a mint tool that has never been dirty or dinged in the first place. Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 130643 (thread 50550) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-14 10:41:52 Subject: Re: PATINA Report 2004 Hi Steve & All, I want to thank Steve for his report, but where are all the rest of you guys who went? I know - you're too busy cleaning up all the tools you bought. Do I assume correctly that Steve didn't stay around for the auction? I'm curious if the new one-day experiment went any better than the old two-day system. I hated missing the looking and visiting this year, but the freshly de-cataracted eye wasn't quite up to it. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130655 (thread 50550) ---- From: "C N Schwartz" Date: 2004-03-14 20:48:49 Subject: RE: PATINA Report 2004 The auction went ok. Some dealers were a bit upset that they had less time to sell this year. Sorta soured them that they had to come all this way for a half-day show. There were a lot of tail gaters. Only 70 tables were taken up by dealers. During the boom we had 104 dealer tables. I got roped into recording bids for the auction so I was there from before dawn to the bitter end. Not much more than the normal number of bidders were present. 50 or so. Prices were about the same as always. $9000 for 424 lots. The auctioneer was excellent. I couldn't convince Tony Seo, Tom Price of Stephen Reynolds to stick around for the auction. Tom and Steve should have. They might have prevented me from doing a very bad thing after they left..... -----Original Message----- Hi Steve & All, I want to thank Steve for his report, but where are all the rest of you guys who went? I know - you're too busy cleaning up all the tools you bought. Do I assume correctly that Steve didn't stay around for the auction? I'm curious if the new one-day experiment went any better than the old two-day system. I hated missing the looking and visiting this year, but the freshly de-cataracted eye wasn't quite up to it. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130669 (thread 50550) ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-03-14 22:09:10 Subject: Re: PATINA Report 2004 > I want to thank Steve for his report, but where are all the rest of you > guys who went? Oh, patience, Bob ..... I didn't make it to PATINA the past two years as I'd been shanghai'd into helping run a science olympiad event. As this was their 'off' year, I wasn't missing the opportunity to paw through tools this time. Unfortunately, a replacement dishwasher installation that didn't go well during the week awaited me upon my return, along with several other must do's for the day (some which remain outstanding), and that gave me little incentive to stick around for the auction. Regardless, the trip was a good break from trying to resolve misaligned copper plumbing in an exceedingly narrow space. It's just over 100 miles to Damascus from my house, and I left Saturday morning about the time Steve claims he and Tom (Dr. D8) Price arrived, so I managed to avoid walking around in the dark, sub-arctic conditions. Now, I've only attended PATINA meets 3x, and each one has either been cold or pouring rain, never warm & dry. Did some prior attendee leave in anger over some slight and put a curse on this group's annual weekend of adventure? Reminds me of my youthful pilgrimages to Watkins Glen to work the F1-US Grand Prix races ... always bitter cold, or always raining, or both. > I know - you're too busy cleaning up all the tools you bought. Actually, I had only a couple items targeted in my mind for this visit, and spent my time in search mode for those. Spent 45 minutes cruising the parking lot (thankfully not muddy this time), cheering up sellers who had their mid-weight coats pulled up around their necks and a few who had chattering teeth. a long conversation with one very nice lady from southwestern Virginia, tending the tables while hubby was inside, revealed that it had been close to 24ºF when they arrived to set up before 6am, whereas when I arrived at 8am it was a whopping 34ºF. From what she said the 25-35 mph wind gusts hadn't diminished much but sunrise was clearly appreciated by sellers and potential buyers. Saw a number of tools of some interest in among the rusty iron and cleaned out basement stuff. Was particularly pleased to have one guy name his price for a fairly clean Stanley #81 scraper when I had just received one from Josh Clark earlier in the week in only slightly less clean condition with better rosewood, but for half this seller's price. That pretty much summed up what I saw outside, generally high prices for objects on tailgates and tables compared to previous experiences. One had some particularly overcleaned saws, to the point where the etch was gone from most of the too shiny blades. Steve Reynolds commented on the same already. Headed for Tony Seo's tables first once I went inside, and he was getting quite a bit of traffic. Seemed to be somewhat fewer tables overall compared to my past visits, but once again a large number of fine tools to fondle and consider, just not much of what I was looking for. Ran into Steve and Tom Price talking with Chris Schwartz, later joined by Todd Hughes, and we ambled around in pairs and singles from row to row, table to table talking and debating the merits of various items and catching up on some side topics. Todd had picked up a pretty little saw whose purpose I've already forgotten, but with a very attractive little open handle that looked English to me. He was torn between adding it to the collection or reselling it. Steve lucked into a nice selection of diemaker's polishing stones by allowing his curiosity to run loose and slide back a cover on a nondescript wooden box. The contents included some relatively hard to come by translucent arkansas slips, and as he was hesitating I suggested that buying that grouping new from a toolroom supplier would probably run him about $4 a stone, and suddenly his wallet sprung right out from his pocket. He got an even better price when he played the Tom Price large bill trick. After about 2 hrs, I hadn't found what I was looking for, had determined that Martin Donnelly has never sold a Warner & Driggs - Phoenix Factory wooden plane, and figured it was about time to head back for the tasks awaiting at home. Thanks to the prior posting of the auction list, I had determined that there wasn't much of interest to me right now, and a quick close look at those tables revealed a bunch of things I could take home, but nothing that would keep me there for the afternoon. As Steve noted previously, we did one more lap around the field ("parking lot") outside, and I found a Yankee 130A user in good shape at a reasonable price buried under a bunch of rusty items in a clearance box, while Steve scarfed up some more items here and there. We closed out the tour reinspecting the saws offered by one seller, where I spotted a 10" Disston & none backsaw nearly identical to the Disston & Son given to me a few months ago, tucked back behind the seller's other offerings. I've since refurbished mine to make it usable, but I'm quite sure the only difference between the two (in original form) was the extra word in the stamp on mine's spine. When asked what he would want for his, after saying it isn't for sale, he suggested he might let it go for about triple the amount Steve and I felt was in the ballpark given it's condition. At least it was nice to learn that there was plenty of room for me to sell if I ever become so inclined even though I recognize that the extra word in the stamp diminishes value to a collector. In the meantime, my Disston & Son sits in the workshop, ready for use. It was a nice morning and welcome break, despite the cold, and I appreciated seeing a few Galoots I haven't talked with in a while, even if the visits were brief. And yes, after too many more hours of effort the new dishwasher is now working, but before that task was completed the faucet in our master bathroom sink decided to die. It became a weekend dedicated to plumbing, which isn't my favorite pastime, but I've got two woodworking projects in progress on which work can now resume. I think. > Do I assume correctly that Steve didn't stay around for the > auction? I'm curious if the new one-day experiment went any better than > the old two-day system. Well, I obviously can't report on the auction, but I did hear several comments among table owners regarding the coming need to clear away the tables midday so the auction could proceed. Personally, I liked the previous format a little better. If I had had more time to spend, I think I would have wound up feeling a little bit pressured to move more quickly before the room was dismantled for the auction. Chris and the rest of the PATINA bunch put on a good show regardless, and I will return, hopefully many times. See you there next year, Bob? Charlie Driggs Newark DE ---- Start of Message 130680 (thread 50550) ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 2004-03-14 20:33:44 Subject: Re: PATINA Report 2004 At 05:10 PM 3/13/04, Steve Reynolds wrote: > Had the usual great time at PATINA this morning. Would have been nicer >had I thought to take gloves, as it was very cold in the early morning. Yeah I have to agree with Steve, I had switched out the old down LL Bean jacket for one just a touch lighter, figuring it was going to be warmer. Not a good move. The show, well, it was a bit lighter overall than past years. Dealer attendance was down by 16 or 17. I would guesstimate that overall attendance was down too. Early bird was very light, compared to other years, and overall just didn't have the same elbow to elbow feeling that PATINA always has. Got to say howdy to a bunch of folks as always. Pete made the trip down from way up north, hope he got back in one piece. Here are couple of room shots taken later in the day http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/patina2004a.jpg http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/patina2004b.jpg I didn't stick around for the auction, so someone else will have to do that report. Just wasn't much in there that was of interest to me, and I did buy pretty well off the floor. Tony Olde River Hard Goods 350 West Catawissa Street Nesquehoning PA 18240 570-669-9421 The best old tool store in Pennsylvania! http://www.oldetoolshop.com ---- Start of Message 130702 (thread 50550) ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 2004-03-15 17:24:14 Subject: RE: PATINA Report 2004 At 08:48 PM 3/14/04, C N Schwartz wrote: >I couldn't convince Tony Seo, Tom Price of Stephen Reynolds to stick around >for the auction. Tom and Steve should have. They might have prevented me >from doing a very bad thing after they left..... Hmmmmmmmmm Let's see...you got really drunk and spent your next 6 months pay on tools? Or You got even drunker and agreed to be the show manager for next year????????????????? Tony Olde River Hard Goods 350 West Catawissa Street Nesquehoning PA 18240 570-669-9421 The best old tool store in Pennsylvania! http://www.oldetoolshop.com ---- Start of Message 130703 (thread 50550) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-15 20:29:53 Subject: RE: PATINA Report 2004 Is the world running out of old tools ? I'm getting a funny feeling coming out of the PATINA reports. Like there wasn't much to get excited about. Me, just looking at Tony's pictures really boggles my mind, table upon table of old tools. But what was on those tables ? Anything interesting ? I don't scan ebay anymore for tools, but from what I hear in oldtools, it sounds like they're mostly broken or overcleaned :-) I remember a time, only what, six years ago ? when you could fire off a message to Patrick L stating what tool, of which type, and which condition you were looking for and he'd more than likely respond that he had several to choose from. And for a price some probably wouldn't believe today. Just for an example, say I wanted a three-patent-date Stanley 4-1/2 (nice metal smoother, Jeff), where could I find one today ? Could I have at PATINA ? Has oldtooldom outgrown its pasture ? Paul Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130704 (thread 50550) ---- From: "C N Schwartz" Date: 2004-03-15 20:53:06 Subject: RE: PATINA Report 2004 I saw 4-1/2 planes at the sale. Several. In good condition. I wasn't looking for one myself, so I didn't look for patent dates. There was less tools there than in the past, but the tables were about as dense as ever. Maybe a little light. And there were fewer tables sold to dealers, as I said before. That'll make tools seem sparser, sure. There is conjecture that we are in a generational low cycle. The old dealers are getting old and unable to come down and sell. The newer generation isn't up to snuff yet. I don't know if I believe that, but it's there. I know I am less interested in tools because I have most of what I want. I want upgrades on some, but that's a slower process than initial acquisition. The older PATINA members are a bit apathetic, too. As webmaster I BEG for material for the website. I'd love to print 25 year old articles on tools from the Patinagram newsletter. It would expose information to more people. And it's no skin off their nose to give me that stuff. I get no help there. And there is more interest in using today than in the past, I think. Not since the Arts and Crafts movement has there been this much interest in handtool woodworking (thank you St Roy). The tool clubs are valuable to users because they have preserved the heritage, but they are less help to spread actual practical 'use' knowledge. If I had the energy I'd take over Patina as the youthful new President at some future election and push to get more actual WOODWORKING done with the club. Even if it alienated the collectors. I don't have that energy. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Pedersen [mailto:ppedersen@v...] Is the world running out of old tools ? I'm getting a funny feeling coming out of the PATINA reports. Like there wasn't much to get excited about. Me, just looking at Tony's pictures really boggles my mind, table upon table of old tools. But what was on those tables ? Anything interesting ? I don't scan ebay anymore for tools, but from what I hear in oldtools, it sounds like they're mostly broken or overcleaned :-) I remember a time, only what, six years ago ? when you could fire off a message to Patrick L stating what tool, of which type, and which condition you were looking for and he'd more than likely respond that he had several to choose from. And for a price some probably wouldn't believe today. Just for an example, say I wanted a three-patent-date Stanley 4-1/2 (nice metal smoother, Jeff), where could I find one today ? Could I have at PATINA ? Has oldtooldom outgrown its pasture ? Paul Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130705 (thread 50550) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-15 20:57:40 Subject: Re: PATINA Report 2004 On Monday 15 March 2004 08:29 pm, you wrote: > Is the world running out of old tools ? I think so. It's clear that there's a revival of interest in hand tools if the magazines are any reflection of things. The result is what appears to be a pretty heavy demand for used tools. I don't agree that most tools on eBay are broken or overcleaned but they sure are getting expensive. It's rare that I'm willing to bid sufficiently high to end up getting something from eBay because I'm cheap and also because by the time you include the high shipping prices some want to charge, it would be cheaper for me to buy a Veritas whizbang rather than a patini-fied Stanley. We need a time machine. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130715 (thread 50550) ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-03-14 14:26:36 Subject: Re: PATINA Report 2004 First, Ken replied: >Well, that sounds like a Millers Falls #10. The Millers Falls #11 is a >narrower than average jack plane similar to a Stanley 5 1/4. Heck of >a price for either one, though. He got both yesterday and you are correct, the one I described is the No. 10. The No. 11 he got later in the day. Then Bob asked: > Do I assume correctly that Steve didn't stay around for the > auction? I'm curious if the new one-day experiment went any better than > the old two-day system. Yep, commitments back home precluded staying for the auction. Sorry, I can't provide any feedback for the changed auction format. Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 130717 (thread 50550) ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-03-16 06:28:19 Subject: Re: PATINA Report 2004 My friend Joe and me got to PATINA I guess around daybreak, long drive for us,[Joe left his house at 3:00] but wish we had got there a little earlier. Joe brought some stuff to sell, mainly a neat Langdon Miter Box plane gizmo and a about mint 45 in it's box.On the way up I told him to put $300 on the Langdon and $200 on the 45 and stay firm. When we got there he offered me the 45 for $100 and I couldn't pass it up.He later sold the Langdon for $225, so much for my advice! I would have been tempted on it at that price. Lots of tools of course out in the parking lot. One thing I noticed right off was the number of over cleaned and repaired saws that was trying to be sold for top dollar.A shiny no etch no.12 with a "skinned" handle priced at $100 kind of thing.Don't think many got sold. Prices were all over the place and unless an obvious good deal really pays to look around good.I bought a really nice Little Disston Pattern makers saw for $40 and was cheapest of 3 that I saw,[most expensive was $116 I believe] and my example was the best saw I think..Bought pretty good with most deals coming from a few venders.Got a pile off Clarke Green , [thanks Clarke don't know what I was thinking not to snag that 45 at $75!]. I passed on an Emmert Vice and a box of extra parts priced at $250,[or just the box of parts $100].Went back after thinking about it and it was sold. Vice was rough but was a good deal on the parts,[2 adj. arms, mount, bunch of dogs]. Should have bought them and is still bothering me! Of course at these shows you have to be careful because lots of stuff has been worked on or not as represented and some venders are,... uhm how can we say this...less then forth coming. Funniest thing I think I saw was a pair of rough wood planes marked as "original penn. rifle builders planes" and priced at $1,700[!] ..Yea OK. Poor Joe was sold a Yankee brace that only ratcheted in one direction.Seller told him it was a rare variation owned by his grandfather and used by him in the 1920's. I pointed out to Joe that the selector was busted off and that it was a Stanley Yankee and had to date to after 1946 buyout of Yankee.I had warned him too not to believe anything that people tell him.In Another incident I found a raising hammer priced at $12.00 from a vender I bought several items from so asked the seller if he could do any better and he says that $25 is it. WHAT?....I pointed out the $12 sticker and he said that isn't right he has to get $25.I suggested he change the price sticker. Inside I picked up a few everlasts that needed reground for $20 ea.[talked down from $26 ea.] and the seller threw in a real rough one.Saw very few everlasts and I really got the impression that most of them and many other more desirable tools were being sold on ebay instead of being brought to the show.Seemed like alot of what was trying to be sold were lesser condition items that was priced at ebay prices for good examples.Seemed to me most guys probably sold on ebay and show stuff was priced at more then what they thought they could get on ebay for it .To get good deals you had to get lucky or find obscure stuff.I picked up a beautiful burl wood handle for a crooked knife for $20 and probably the neatest thing two metal stamps,[a friend bought a third] from the Disston factory that they marked thier back saws and maybe squares with priced at $20 ea. I thought there was a good deal less people at the show, while well atended was not jammed like in past years. I am sure that the combination of high prices and the Ebay is putting a dent into attendance at shows like this. Even though we had planed on it we didn't stay for the auction because we were tired and I had to get up early the next day to go to the D.C. Georgetown flea market. Bought a good bit of stuff, got some great deals,[and some so so ones] and had a good time. As always really enjoyed meeting everyone and gabbing which is always the highlight of shows like this at least for me.......Todd ++++ End of thread 50550 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50551 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130629 (thread 50551) ---- From: Mark Marsay Date: 2004-03-13 22:39:30 Subject: Both a good and Bad day Well, tis been an odd day all in all! Started bad, going out in the morning to get the paper and finding that some little (pick your own perjorative) had decided that the CD player in my van was just what he needed and had cheerfully smashed the window to get it. Luckily they are pretty damn stupid round here, so he hadn't looked in the ashtray and picked up the 30 odd quid I'd stashed there after a delivery yesterday. Still, £150 of damage to steal a £40 stereo .... think I'd rather have had him ask me for the money! However the day picked up later, I was offered a rather beat up and repaired type 1 Stanley 20 for £40, eventually aftyer much negotiation paying £20. Also managed to pick up the book "Tools for Trades and crafts" for a smidge over £28 .... been looking for that for ages! Also had a nice afternoon out with the missus, which I suppose counts for something! bit of OT content, but needed to vent! Regards, Mark Marsay, Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. ++++ End of thread 50551 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50552 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130630 (thread 50552) ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-03-13 14:41:07 Subject: Nice additions I decided not to go to PATINA today but instead take the time to work on my table. The time I have left to finish it is growing short before I'll have to put it away for a few months until we move into the new house. So, I stayed home and got the other side of the base finished; legs tapered and slots cut out for the wooden buttons holding the top down, the whole thing scraped down with my new LN scraper set and glued together. That's both sides glued up now. Tomorrow I connect the sides with the streatchers and the base will be finished. The tool gods smiled upon me for my sacrifice and sent me a package. I don't buy much from the 'bay, but every once in a while I take a look and see if there's anything I'd like. I ended up with two really nice, but not uncommon planes. These seem like they were owned by the same person (both from the same dealer who doesn't normally deal in tools) who really took care of them. They're not shiney but they're also not rusty, just "well-patina'ed". :-) A little dirt cleanup from sitting on a shelf for decades and they'll be great. One's a Sargent VBM 409 smoother. A solid and nicely made plane. Oh, my. This brings my metal smoother collection up to five! (two stanleys, two sargents and a miller falls) Nothing compared to y'all, but I'm "just a user." Right? I am, aren't I? Of course, I've got four jointer planes now. But I need them all. I do, really. The other plane I got today is a type 11 #5 (useful Jack plane, Jeff, but you knew that already). Believe it or not, but this is my first Stanley jack. I have a Parplus jack that I've ground to use as a rough, post-scrub plane (and it works wonderfully in that position despite their less-than wonderful rep), then I have the wonderful Steve Knight razee jack, and now this one. The mouth is still nice and tight and plenty of iron left on the Stanley "V-shaped" logo cutter. Someone replaced the original low knob for an early high knob, but that doesn't bother me like it would some others. Again, like the Sargent, it's definitely been used, but it's also definitely been well cared for. No great finds, common as dirt, but valuable additions to my user set of tools. I now have #3, #4, #5, and #6. I like my B plane #7 and my new Knight razee jointer, but I "need" a 7, 2, and an 8 now to make up my reasonable set, but not worrying too much about it. Just wanted to share a happy tool moment with those who will appreciate it. AAAndrew Going to do some tool work tonight while the glue dries in Durham, North Carolina. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 50552 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50553 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130631 (thread 50553) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-13 19:35:05 Subject: boxes out What is it about these moldy boxes that make a tool more desirable. The first thing I do when a get a tool in the original box is to throw the box out. Why would anyone want to keep this moldy crumbling box. I think I'm in the minority here, and perhaps I will offend some, but forget health considerations for a moment (not to mention clutter)...for what useful purpose should I keep the box? Inquiring minds..... regards jonathan ---- Start of Message 130633 (thread 50553) ---- From: "Mike Guenther" Date: 2004-03-14 01:37:34 Subject: re: boxes out Jonathan asks; for what useful purpose should I keep the box? Inquiring minds..... Well, if you were ever to consider selling the tool, having the original box would add to the value of it. It's the same with toys, games, and other sundry items. Especially if the item and box are in excellent or mint condition. Mike Guenther in S. Carolina ---- Start of Message 130634 (thread 50553) ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-03-13 21:32:44 Subject: Re: boxes out Jonathan Peck wrote: > .for what useful purpose should I keep the box? Inquiring minds..... So you could send it to me - postage due of course. Ed Minch Assuming you are kidding ---- Start of Message 130635 (thread 50553) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-13 20:34:42 Subject: Re: boxes out Just bought the wife a new refrigerator. Box was clean but I threw it out anyway. Huck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Guenther" To: "oldtools" Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 5:37 PM Subject: re:[oldtools] boxes out > Jonathan asks; for what useful purpose should I keep the box? Inquiring minds..... > > Well, if you were ever to consider selling the tool, having the original box would add to the value of it. It's the same with toys, games, and other sundry items. Especially if the item and box are in excellent or mint condition. > > Mike Guenther in S. Carolina > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130636 (thread 50553) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-13 21:36:48 Subject: re: boxes out >Well, if you were ever to consider selling the tool, having the >original box would add to the value of it. It's the same with toys, games, and other sundry items. Especially if the item and box are in excellent or mint condition. > >Mike Guenther in S. Carolina Admittedly, for the few items that I have recieved in the original box, neither the tool nor the box were in excellent or mint condition. Rather the boxes were shabby and smelling of mold. I also cannot say that the tools are collectable or rare, or that I payed anything extra, but rather the boxes came with the tools. But I do see your point. I can't say that the sight of a mint condition box would get me excited...now a mint condition tool hidden under some surface rust and a layer of grime and dirt going for a gloatable price...now that's exciting. jonathan ---- Start of Message 130637 (thread 50553) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-13 22:41:41 Subject: Re: boxes out Jonathan writes : >What is it about these moldy boxes that make a tool more desirable. You know, it might be of interest to some to see what kind of box the thing came in when it was sold. Another piece of the history of the tool. I bought a box once, the box for a Stanley 78. The box was in very nice shape, and inside were the fence and the depthstop, but no 78. Made up for all the 78's I've seen sans box nor accessories. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130638 (thread 50553) ---- From: "Mike Guenther" Date: 2004-03-14 04:03:42 Subject: Re: boxes out See minor tool gloat where I got a type 16 No. 3C with original box. No mold or mildew and the plane was in excellent shape. Mike Guenther in S. Carolina ---- Start of Message 130644 (thread 50553) ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 2004-03-14 10:49:51 Subject: re: boxes out tAt 09:36 PM 3/13/2004 -0500, Jonathan Peck wrote: > I can't say that the sight of a mint condition box would get me > excited...now a mint >condition tool hidden under some surface rust and a layer of grime and >dirt going for >a gloatable price...now that's exciting. An interesting definition of "mint condition". ---- Start of Message 130652 (thread 50553) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-14 14:53:43 Subject: re: boxes out Jim remined me of the casual use of specific index terms: >An interesting definition of "mint condition". Thank's Jim. While I don't have any oldtools index which uses "mint" as a category (I only have one), can I assume that it means the same as "new" as defined by FTJ's The Standard Condition Classification System? Categorry-New, Wear-None, Finish-100%, Usable-Totally, Repairs-None, Rust-None, Misc. +Orig. Pkg. In which case, I think that I am referring to a tool which will clean to somewhere in the Good+ to Fine range. This plane cleaned to Good+ IMHO http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=254 Category-Fine, Wear-Minimal, Finish-90%-100%, Usable-Totally, Repairs-None, Rust- Trace, Category-Good+, Wear-Normal, Finish-75%-90%, Usable-Yes, Repairs-None/Minor, Rust-Minor, Misc. Some dings and scratches When buying oldtools, I tend to like to buy from dealers. This is because, for obvious reasons, dealers tend to be very accurate when describing a tools condition, seemingly drawing more attention to a tools flaws than their attributes. This is generally how I discern between the honest seller who knows tools and others. I buy tools on e*ay, but unless I know you, I approach the transaction with a "buyer beware" attitude. There are plenty out there who would like to separate you from your hard earned cash, and most transactions are final. It seems VERY obvious to me, that some sellers take planes in Fair to Good- or even Good to Good+ condition and clean them up and list them as excellent condition. In which case you are paying for a plane that would be categorized as Usable- No, Usable - Probably, or Usable - Yes, and not a plane that is Usable - Totally. How about Proffitable -Yes, Usable - Maybe as a selling point. Of course if these tools are to be displayed and not used, then there would seem to be more "newbie" collectors than actual New to Fine tools available. Plenty of motivation for the "Fake" artist, and I wouldn't be surprised if some are "lurking" under our porch and using our techniques for their eb*Y scams. In fact, I don't think that it would be very hard to fake an "original" box either. Category - Good, Wear - Normal, Finish 50%-75%, Usable - Yes, Repairs - Minor, Rust - Minor, Misc. Small chips Category - Good - (minus), Wear - Normal, Finish - 30%-50%, Usable - Probably, Repairs - Minor, Rust - Minor to Moderate Category - Fair, Wear - Heavy, Finish - 30%, Usable - No, Repairs - Moderate to Major, Rust - Moderate to Major. Category - Poor, Wear - Heavy, Finish - N/A, Usable - No, Repairs - Major, Rust - Major. Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 130668 (thread 50553) ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-03-14 15:56:53 Subject: Re: boxes out Jonathan, I have kept all my Lie-Nielson boxes, but most of the other boxes that new tools came in got dumped. However, if anyone is getting rid of any Stanley #1 plane boxes, I will gladly accept them. Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Peck" Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 8:36 PM Subject: re:[oldtools] boxes out > I can't say that the sight of a mint condition box would get me excited...now a mint > condition tool hidden under some surface rust and a layer of grime and dirt going for > a gloatable price...now that's exciting. ---- Start of Message 130693 (thread 50553) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-15 10:46:36 Subject: re: boxes out A refrigerator box is about the only box I can think of that DOES have a practical use - you can live it in after SWMBO throws you out for spending $29,000 on an ivory plow plane. Blake ---- Start of Message 130719 (thread 50553) ---- From: garrison@g... Date: 2004-03-16 07:49:37 Subject: re: boxes out I just leave the tools in the boxes to the collectors who collect rather than to us users who collect. Scott Garrison Duluth GA ++++ End of thread 50553 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50554 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130639 (thread 50554) ---- From: "P J McBride" Date: 2004-03-14 19:16:05 Subject: Wood ID and Translation please GG's I need a little help with identifying this wood. http://tinyurl.com/2q9u7 In Australia we call this *firewood, full of borer* Should I call it Wormy Chestnut from now on...???? I googled for *wormy chestnut* and I couldn't find *firewood, full of borer* in any of the results...maybe a Rural Indiana term... Regards, Peter in Melbourne, Australia where recently the travelling Italian Great Masters Painting exhibits were impounded at customs with wormy chestnut frames.!!! ---- Start of Message 130642 (thread 50554) ---- From: "Lamar keeney" Date: 2004-03-14 10:11:40 Subject: RE: Wood ID and Translation please IMHO this wood looks like Beachwood.The borers are not restricted to Chestnut. I have an older wood plane that has chewed on by these things also, but not to that exstint. The Chestnut that i,m farmilier with has a darker brown coler and more pronounced grain. I could stand correcting on this subject not haven ever seen a live one. The Chestnut tree suffered a blite that all but wiped them out in the states many years ago. Have read a report of them making a come back that is baffling the exsperts in such things. Hoping for it success. >From: "P J McBride" >Reply-To: "P J McBride" >To: "oldtools" >Subject: [oldtools] Wood ID and Translation please >Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:16:05 +1100 > >GG's > >I need a little help with identifying this wood. > >http://tinyurl.com/2q9u7 > >In Australia we call this *firewood, full of borer* >Should I call it Wormy Chestnut from now on...???? >I googled for *wormy chestnut* and I couldn't find *firewood, full of >borer* in >any of the results...maybe a Rural Indiana term... > >Regards, >Peter >in Melbourne, Australia where recently the travelling Italian Great Masters >Painting exhibits were impounded at customs with wormy chestnut frames.!!! > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools _________________________________________________________________ Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar – includes FREE pop-up blocking! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ ---- Start of Message 130646 (thread 50554) ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-03-14 08:09:19 Subject: RE: Wood ID and Translation please When I was in Austria (where this plane came from) last summer we stopped at an Antique Barn where they had lots of those old cabinets and furniture that someone had stripped and refinished with clear finish. There were also a bunch of tools along one wall and every bit of wood was filled with worm holes. They must think that the eventual customers think it gives the piece a sense of age, just like the "rustic" furniture they had stripped and refinished. AAAndrew Talk about organic patina... --- Lamar keeney wrote: > IMHO this wood looks like Beachwood.The borers are > not restricted to > Chestnut. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130648 (thread 50554) ---- From: "John Pesut" Date: 2004-03-14 13:03:25 Subject: Re: Wood ID and Translation please Methinks that is just classic powder post beetle infestation. Wormy Chestnut (at least around these parts) implies Chestnut that was harvested *after* a tree succumbed to the blight. It was then sawed and used mostly for barn timbers. You can imagine then, that the insect holes would show up all kinds of ways through the sawed lumber. Not just entrance holes like you see on the referenced plane. Plus there was no particular species of insect involved just lots of critters taking advantage of a diseased host. Thus the holes and grooves are all different shapes and sizes and colors even. After the barns started to fall down the chestnut posts and beams and sills got a second life as "unique" furniture lumber. Don't quite understand that 'cause if you have ever seen a pre-blight chestnut board finished you would never stand for the wormy stuff. I guess it was an early version of selling people bottles of water for $2, $3 or even $5. Some people will fork over a premium just because "everyone else is". Later, > I need a little help with identifying this wood. > > http://tinyurl.com/2q9u7 > > In Australia we call this *firewood, full of borer* > ---- Start of Message 130650 (thread 50554) ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-03-15 14:13:05 Subject: Re: Wood ID and Translation please , John Pesut wrote: > After the barns started to fall down the chestnut posts and beams > and sills got a second life as "unique" furniture lumber. Don't quite > understand that 'cause if you have ever seen a pre-blight chestnut > board finished you would never stand for the wormy stuff. GG My sister has a 1931 tudor home west of Cleveland with a very samll (9X11) wormy chestnut "family room". It has the wood on all walls, door frames and window frame, and in a small built in book case. She was offered $4,000 for it and they would do the work. Sounds nuts to me - hey, there is a use for all of the myriad eggbeaters in the basement - put a 16" bit in each one and have all the neighborhood kids start workin' Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 130662 (thread 50554) ---- From: "steve" Date: 2004-03-14 10:47:06 Subject: Re: Wood ID and Translation please Hello, I've got my own wood ID question, for those of you with subscriptions or access to FWW magazine... I'm trying to determine what wood was used by the author (Seth Janofsky) in his chest-on-chest pictured on page 44 of issue no. 168. Look familiar to anyone? I'd appreciate any educated guesses. Thanks for looking. Steve O. Appleton, Wisconsin From: "P J McBride" > I need a little help with identifying this wood. > > http://tinyurl.com/2q9u7 > > In Australia we call this *firewood, full of borer* > Should I call it Wormy Chestnut from now on...???? ++++ End of thread 50554 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50555 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130640 (thread 50555) ---- From: "Lamar keeney" Date: 2004-03-14 09:30:40 Subject: Tool manufactuer info wanted Greetings from coastal Coralina to all I have a couple of tools that i've not been able to locate any info, any history of these co.s would be appriciated. The firt is a block plane, looks identical to a Stanley 9 1/2, With the cam lock undernenth the cap. The iron is stamped SBS with Seagley underneath. The second is a 10. in. 14 t.p.i. back saw made by The Simpson Saw and Steel co. I can make out a no. 97 from the logo on the blade. Thanks to all Lamar _________________________________________________________________ Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage – 4 plans to choose from! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ ---- Start of Message 130641 (thread 50555) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-14 10:11:14 Subject: Re: Tool manufactuer info wanted Hi Lamar & All, A plane blade marked Siegley (vs. Seagley) SBS was made by Stanley sometime between 1905 and the mid-1920s. The Jacob Siegley Tool Co. made metal planes from ca. 1878 to 1905 when they sold out to Stanley who continued to use the name. But the SBS (and other 3 letter markings) were Stanley additions re plane iron types and thicknesses; I don't know what the specific meaning of SBS is. The DAT does not have a Simpson Saw and Steel Co. listed, but it does have two Simpsons who made saws. Anb Ambrose Simpson worked in NYC ca. 1835 and a W.H. Simpson worked in Utica, NY, -1861-1870-. Don't know if either relates. Maybe Erv's book has better data. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130656 (thread 50555) ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-03-14 12:20:12 Subject: Re: Tool manufactuer info wanted > The DAT does not have a Simpson Saw and Steel Co. listed, but it does > have two Simpsons who made saws. Anb Ambrose Simpson worked in NYC ca. > 1835 and a W.H. Simpson worked in Utica, NY, -1861-1870-. Don't know if > either relates. Maybe Erv's book has better data. > Erv's book only mentions W.H. Simpson with the same info (Utica 1861-1870). Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ++++ End of thread 50555 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50556 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130645 (thread 50556) ---- From: "don goldenhersh" Date: 2004-03-14 15:42:08 Subject: smelly boxes out... dear galoots, Ha Ha!! I bet every old junk collector has dealt with this quandry.the smelly box problem.They may be history but if they smell too bad they go. Otherwise i would never throw away a vintage box usually with some neat old graphics on it! stick em'in odd places in your space and find them from time to time.Thanks Don Goldenhersh in sunny columbia, missouri.....desmellification ideas and methods anyone? ---- Start of Message 130647 (thread 50556) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-14 10:39:09 Subject: Re: smelly boxes out... Hmmmm . . . desmellification? Don't know, but kitty litter may be just the ticket. (Kitty litter Jeff is used here for cats, for much the same purpose as Sir Thomas Crapper had invisioned the convenience for the human species). Now let's all sing, "Hail to the Crapper". http://www.plumbingworld.com/historythomas.html Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) - - - who saw his first Robin of the year yesterday at 10:20 a.m. Dyer, Indiana US of A > dear galoots, Ha Ha!! I bet every old junk collector has dealt with this quandry.the smelly box problem.They may be history but if they smell too bad they go. > Otherwise i would never throw away a vintage box usually with some neat old graphics on it! stick em'in odd places in your space and find them from time to time.Thanks Don Goldenhersh in sunny columbia, missouri.....desmellification ideas and methods anyone? > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130654 (thread 50556) ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-03-15 14:19:30 Subject: Re: smelly boxes out... Richard, That's probably why the box smelled bad in the first place. Some Galoot filled it with Kitty Litter and placed it on his shop floor. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot D*mn glad the List is back up. Couldn't hold my breath much longer. > Hmmmm . . . desmellification? Don't know, but kitty litter may be just the > ticket. (Kitty litter Jeff is used here for cats, for much the same purpose > as Sir Thomas Crapper had invisioned the convenience for the human species). > Now let's all sing, "Hail to the Crapper". > http://www.plumbingworld.com/historythomas.html > > Regards, > Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) - - - who saw his first Robin of the year yesterday > at 10:20 a.m. > Dyer, Indiana US of A > ---- Start of Message 130666 (thread 50556) ---- From: "YARROW, GARY" Date: 2004-03-15 13:38:33 Subject: RE: smelly boxes out... I would suggest cheap coffee, yes it works very well. After its nice and smelly (change it several times) send it to Mike Urness, as he is the only one that I know that would still use it for its intended purpose. Gary > Hmmmm . . . desmellification? Don't know, but kitty litter > may be just the > ticket. (Kitty litter Jeff is used here for cats, for much > the same purpose > as Sir Thomas Crapper had invisioned the convenience for the > human species). > Now let's all sing, "Hail to the Crapper". > http://www.plumbingworld.com/historythomas.html > > Regards, > Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) - - - who saw his first Robin of the > year yesterday > at 10:20 a.m. > Dyer, Indiana US of A > > > > > dear galoots, Ha Ha!! I bet every old junk collector has > dealt with this > quandry.the smelly box problem.They may be history but if > they smell too bad > they go. > > Otherwise i would never throw away a vintage box usually > with some neat > old graphics on it! stick em'in odd places in your space and > find them from > time to time.Thanks Don Goldenhersh in sunny columbia, > missouri.....desmellification ideas and methods anyone? ---- Start of Message 130686 (thread 50556) ---- From: Kirk Eppler Date: 2004-03-15 08:40:44 Subject: Re: smelly boxes out... I always propose Nature's Miracle for odor removal. Lightly spritz the box every few days. Its an enzyme, and eats the smelly stuff. Don't know if it would kill old graphics however don goldenhersh wrote: > .desmellification ideas and methods anyone? -- Kirk Eppler Global Mfg Science and Technology Eppler.Kirk@g... ---- Start of Message 130731 (thread 50556) ---- From: hb Date: 2004-03-16 07:58:59 Subject: RE: smelly boxes out...   Baking soda works well to absorb and remove odors. Sprinkle the box liberally inside and out or just fill it up completely. Besides, Baking Soda is cheaper than coffee. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130733 (thread 50556) ---- From: "Bramel, Jim" Date: 2004-03-16 11:13:52 Subject: RE: smelly boxes out... Pine shavings and sawdust are the best things I have found to rid boxes, etc. of odors. When my kids were small (youngest now 34 and the oldest 44 and the middle one somewhere between there) we ate fish in the car. They dropped some behind the=20 back seat. We tried everything to get rid of that smell. A=20 friend of my dads told me to come by his house and he would=20 take care of it. I did, he dumped some pine sawdust from his=20 tablesaw into the area behind and under the back seat and=20 overnight it was gone. Easy to clean up with just a vacuum=20 but the sawdust smelled like fish.=20 Jim=20 -----Original Message----- From: hb [mailto:hb2u@y...]=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 10:59 AM To: oldtools Subject: RE: [oldtools] smelly boxes out... =A0 Baking soda works well to absorb and remove odors. Sprinkle the box liberally inside and out or just fill it up completely. ---- Start of Message 130736 (thread 50556) ---- From: hb Date: 2004-03-16 08:21:58 Subject: RE: smelly boxes out... I did, he dumped some pine sawdust > from his > tablesaw into the area behind and under the back > seat and > overnight it was gone. What is a TABLESAW? I never saw any mention of that model on the Disstonian website.??! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130738 (thread 50556) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-16 09:33:35 Subject: RE: smelly boxes out... It's like a stairsaw but it's used for sawing sliding dovetails in the underside of tabletops. >>> hb 03/16/2004 9:21:58 AM >>> I did, he dumped some pine sawdust > from his > tablesaw into the area behind and under the back > seat and > overnight it was gone. What is a TABLESAW? I never saw any mention of that model on the Disstonian website.??! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130739 (thread 50556) ---- From: "Bramel, Jim" Date: 2004-03-16 11:35:14 Subject: RE: smelly boxes out... I would be willing to bet you currently own and use one. If not you are in a minority. Check the pictures some put on the web of their shop Jim=20 -----Original Message----- From: hb [mailto:hb2u@y...]=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 11:22 AM To: oldtools Subject: RE: [oldtools] smelly boxes out... What is a TABLESAW? I never saw any mention of that model on the Disstonian website.??! ---- Start of Message 130741 (thread 50556) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-03-16 11:48:24 Subject: RE: smelly boxes out... hb wrote: > I did, he dumped some pine sawdust > > from his > > tablesaw into the area behind and under the back > > seat and > > overnight it was gone. > >What is a TABLESAW? I never saw any mention of that >model on the Disstonian website.??! Actually, it wouldn't have been completely out of place there. There is a handtool called a "tablesaw". Sort of like a short, squat hand saw. {Perhaps a more appropriate way to think of it is as a keyhole saw with a serious SGH[*] problem.) Anyway, it was used to make curving/circular saw cuts, for example when cutting out a table-top (hence the name). I've seen photos, but never one in person. I can only assume this is the critter that Jim was referring to in his original note. N [* Saw Growth Hormone.] ---- Start of Message 130742 (thread 50556) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 2004-03-16 11:56:36 Subject: RE: smelly boxes out... Jim Bramel said: > I did, he dumped some pine sawdust from his tablesaw into the area > behind and under the back seat and overnight it was gone. And H(enry) B(oy) responded: >What is a TABLESAW? I never saw any mention of that model on the >Disstonian website.??! It's not the Disstonian, but look here: http://www.roseantiquetools.com/id59.html Click on the next-to-the-bottom image on the righthand side. It is one of the numerous models of Disston saws carrying the model number 7. The catalog does not describe its use, but I have heard many times it is used to saw out a large round table top. Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 130797 (thread 50556) ---- From: hb Date: 2004-03-17 05:59:07 Subject: RE: smelly boxes out... --- "Bramel, Jim" wrote: > I would be willing to bet you currently own and use > one. If > not you are in a minority. Check the pictures some > put on the > web of their shop > > Jim --snip-- Sorry Jim. You lost the bet. I fell down this slippery slope before I found the other one. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 50556 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50557 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130649 (thread 50557) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-14 17:48:02 Subject: OK...painted planes? Not sorry I missed this one, although for a buck it might have been worth a look. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3279756192&category AAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (the sound of yours truly sliding down the slippery slope of painted planes) Yikes!! This is one got away too http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIte- m&item=3276089105&category very nice but steep. Looks like it'll clean up real nice for the lucky winner Lastly, I wanted to view this WWII 1943 37MM Anti Tank Gun and got this message http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=22318- 37630&category=585 Probably don't need one of those, but it looks like a good user Later Jonathan ---- Start of Message 130667 (thread 50557) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-15 11:42:08 Subject: Re: OK...painted planes? > for a buck it might have been worth a look. >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3279756192&category > If it wasn't for the $20 postage!! I'd have gladly taken a chance on this. I see low knob. I see a tote tip. I see a small adjusting wheel and a 2 piece lateral lever. If the tote really isn't broken, cleaned up, there's a 10 spot right there and more. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ++++ End of thread 50557 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50558 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130651 (thread 50558) ---- From: "Robert Fortier" Date: 2004-03-15 10:58:43 Subject: What is it ??? I was wondering....I picked up at the flea market a brace bit shaped like a small gouge, about 1/4 radius. It was sharpened like a carving gouge, evidently (sp?) the previous owner used it as a carving tool, but my question is....What is the real purpose of such a bit and how was this bit originally sharpened ??? There is about 6 inches of gouge-like profile, and the pyramidal end is what let my deduce that it is a brace bit. Thanks Bob in Sherbrooke, Province of Québec ---- Start of Message 130671 (thread 50558) ---- From: "Peter Williams" Date: 2004-03-16 06:51:46 Subject: RE: What is it ??? > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Fortier [mailto:Robert.Fortier@S...] > > a brace bit shaped like a small gouge A spoon bit by the sound of it, possibly with a butchered end: http://www.fine-tools.com/G303711.htm I think one advantage of them is that they don't wander in long holes. -- Peter Williams - Geelong ---- Start of Message 130672 (thread 50558) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-15 14:56:38 Subject: Re: What is it ??? Hi Bob & All, Bob describes what sounds like a spoon bit - AKA Duckbill bit. Fairly common old style bit used by chairmakers, coopers, shipwrights, etc. Main advantages are that it can be used at any angle and it doesn't drift off line. Best Wishes, Another Bob ---- Start of Message 130675 (thread 50558) ---- From: "Jon Endres, PE" Date: 2004-03-15 15:04:33 Subject: RE: What is it ??? > I was wondering....I picked up at the flea market a brace bit > shaped like a > small gouge, about 1/4 radius. It was sharpened like a carving gouge, > evidently (sp?) the previous owner used it as a carving tool, but my > question is....What is the real purpose of such a bit and how was this bit > originally sharpened ??? There is about 6 inches of gouge-like > profile, and > the pyramidal end is what let my deduce that it is a brace bit. Possibly a spoon bit, for chairmaking? JE ---- Start of Message 130676 (thread 50558) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-03-15 12:17:21 Subject: Re: What is it ??? On 15 Mar 2004 at 10:58, Robert Fortier wrote: > I was wondering....I picked up at the flea market a brace bit shaped like a > small gouge, about 1/4 radius. It was sharpened like a carving gouge, > evidently (sp?) the previous owner used it as a carving tool, but my > question is....What is the real purpose of such a bit and how was this bit > originally sharpened ??? There is about 6 inches of gouge-like profile, and > the pyramidal end is what let my deduce that it is a brace bit. Sounds like a spoon bit to me. Here's a picture of a new one: http://www.fine-tools.com/G303711.htm There were a large number of boring implements for use in braces that pre-dated the now-common RJ and Stanley-style auger bits with spurs. While the invention of the modern auger bits made most of these disappear, clearly this one hasn't because it is still being made. Nice for boring angled holes, especially popular with chair makers. Also good for slight corrections when you realize your direction is a bit off. Try that with any auger with a lead screw. There are other types (center bits for example) that still work better that auger bits in some applications, but that's a whole other discussion. Just make sure you have a complete set of each type in your shop :-). -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 130677 (thread 50558) ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-03-15 12:21:13 Subject: Re: What is it ??? --- Robert Fortier wrote: > I was wondering....I picked up at the flea market a > brace bit shaped like a > small gouge, about 1/4 radius. It was sharpened like > a carving gouge, > evidently (sp?) the previous owner used it as a > carving tool, but my > question is....What is the real purpose of such a > bit and how was this bit > originally sharpened ??? There is about 6 inches of > gouge-like profile, and > the pyramidal end is what let my deduce that it is a > brace bit. Could be a plug cutter, to cut wooden plugs to fill holes. I have a couple that sound just like what you describe, and some others that have replacable cutters. They look like they could be sharpened on the inside just like a gouge. Chuck one up in a brace and give it a try. I haven't used mine enough to have to do more than gently touch up the edge. ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130681 (thread 50558) ---- From: "Robert Fortier" Date: 2004-03-15 15:34:26 Subject: RE: What is it ??? not exactly like this, the end of mine is opened, not close as a spoon. I like the idea of the plug cutter..... -----Message d'origine----- De : Peter Williams [mailto:peter.williams@h...] Envoyé : 15 mars, 2004 14:52 À : oldtools Objet : RE: [oldtools] What is it ??? > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Fortier [mailto:Robert.Fortier@S...] > > a brace bit shaped like a small gouge A spoon bit by the sound of it, possibly with a butchered end: http://www.fine-tools.com/G303711.htm I think one advantage of them is that they don't wander in long holes. -- Peter Williams - Geelong ---- Start of Message 130687 (thread 50558) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-03-15 13:03:15 Subject: RE: What is it ??? On 15 Mar 2004 at 15:34, Robert Fortier wrote: > not exactly like this, the end of mine is opened, not close as a spoon. Probably a shell bit, then. Shell bits are open, spoon bits are closed. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 130688 (thread 50558) ---- From: "Ed O'Riordan" Date: 2004-03-15 16:13:25 Subject: RE: What is it ??? Sounds like a shell bit. There are 3 bits of the general configuration that you are describing: Spoon: look like an elongated spoon, usually 3 inches or less Shell: looks just like a straight sided gouge, usually longer than 3 inches Nose: looks like a straight sided gouge with a protrusion at the bottom, usually longer than 3 inches Check out this for pictures: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3279308701&category=1 3872 Despite the description, to me these are shell bits. Ed O' ---- Start of Message 130689 (thread 50558) ---- From: "Robert Fortier" Date: 2004-03-15 16:21:37 Subject: RE: What is it ??? Well you got it !! Looks like the third from the left. And the exact use of this would be ??? Thanks Bob in Sherbrooke -----Message d'origine----- De : Ed O'Riordan [mailto:eoriordan@e...] Envoye : 15 mars, 2004 16:13 A : 'Robert Fortier'; 'oldtools' Objet : RE: [oldtools] What is it ??? Sounds like a shell bit. There are 3 bits of the general configuration that you are describing: Spoon: look like an elongated spoon, usually 3 inches or less Shell: looks just like a straight sided gouge, usually longer than 3 inches Nose: looks like a straight sided gouge with a protrusion at the bottom, usually longer than 3 inches Check out this for pictures: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3279308701&category=1 3872 Despite the description, to me these are shell bits. Ed O' ---- Start of Message 130707 (thread 50558) ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-03-15 19:25:44 Subject: Re: What is it ??? Hello Galoots, Just in case some of you think that I was talking through my hat when I suggested that the bit-like tool in question may be a plug cutter, there is one pictured in the reprint of the 1896 Hammacher, Schlemmer & Co catalog that I am sure at least a few of you may have on the bookshelf. Bottom of page 124, to be exact. If it wasn't so slippery and dark out, I'd run out to the shop and take a photo, but it is almost my bedtime, too. On the plug cutter, the tang is about half of the total length, and the cutting edge is straight across, and sharpened on the inside. The ones that I have came out of my great-grandfather's tool box. ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 50558 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50559 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130653 (thread 50559) ---- From: iceberg724@b... Date: 2004-03-14 20:23:21 Subject: Bio and greetings My name is Kevin and I have a tool problem. Bio: First fascinated by tools at age 3. Allowed to reach into grandfather's toolchest and examine shiny/dirty objects on rare trip to dimly lit and coal-dust covered basement. Collected enough coal dust and "patina" on short excusion to be thrown clothes and all into bathtub by the maternal SWMBO. Enjoyed sense of accomplishment. First tool purchase: age 12. Purchased Stanley 75 rabbet at local hardware store. Parent's protest -- "you won't be able to do anything with that". They were pretty much right on that one, but they never saw the side of my desk that faced the wall. Turned to the dark side at 17. Mechanic's tools. Short stint as Ford mechanic / indentured servant of Snap-On man. The Ford line-up at the time: Fairmont, Granada, Mustang II, Pinto and the Silver Jubilee Edition Thunderbird II. Quit because repairing these things was just prolonging the suffering of owners. Many years of apartment living with occasional attempts to bash together simple pieces of furniture with hand and power tools interspersed with long cooling-off periods for neighbors. After a few years of townhouse living I managed to clear about 70sf in the basement to call a workshop. Started with a few basic power tools but soon developed a preference for the quiet of handtools. Began buying old tools because they were cheaper (some are) but now I buy them because I prefer them. My current ratio of planes to completed-woodworking-projects is about 7:1 but I’m working on increasing it. I'm afraid I can't join in with SWMBO complaints. I don't have any. She's the biggest enabler in my woodworking endeavor. Examples: I was a bit apologetic about paying a bit too much for an old Miller's 22 jointer, she said "It's not like you called up L N and ordered a new one". When I was looking at a Stanley no.12 scraper on the web she said "You ought to get one of those -- it's cute". This goes on all the time. Though not a tool person she shares my joy at the arrival of every box that contains some old rusty greasy thing. Very cool. I've been lurking on the list for a few months because I haven't had time to post a bio. I do today because the house is up for sale, my shop is packed up and all of my newly adopted and cleaned ebay-stards are safely moved to friend's homes and I'm holed up in my office on Sunday while strangers mill around in my house. I am looking forward to different house and new shop. Since I found the list I've been hanging on every word you people type naive as an infant and giddy as a schoolgirl. Hard to admit for a 260 pound guy. Hope I learn enough about old tools to eventually contribute something that someone else finds useful. I'm glad to have found the group and it's a pleasure to meet y'all. Kevin Foley Fairfax, Virginia -- Everything you expect from suburban sprawl -- and more! --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ ---- Start of Message 130847 (thread 50559) ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-03-17 18:55:00 Subject: Re: Bio and greetings > My name is Kevin and I have a tool problem. > I'm afraid I can't join in with SWMBO complaints. Though not a tool > person she shares my joy at the arrival of every box that contains some old > rusty greasy thing. Very cool. > > I've been lurking I am looking forward to different house and new shop. > Since I found the list I've been hanging on every word you people type Well, took me a while to catch up with your post, but I say to the group: here's a guy that obviously knows some of the right things to say .... 1. wife has been talked into anticipating his tool purchases 2. "hanging on every word you people type" 3. mentions a new house and shop in the same sentence; backwards, but at least he's grouping words into appropriate phrases Kevin, after reading your posting, I'd think the real test of joining this group and welcoming our push down a few slopes will come when three boxes arrive at the front door, one of them containing example no. 5 of some marvelous tool you already have, and mebbe the other two bring a pair of LN purchases you've been lusting after, direct from the factory. If she's still excited for you after you open all three in front of her, and does realize that there's nothing in those boxes for her, waalllll, I'd say you better start giving classes to the rest of us. Or mebbe hire a food taster. Welcome aboard! Charlie Driggs Newark DE ---- Start of Message 130865 (thread 50559) ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-03-18 13:19:47 Subject: Re: Bio and greetings The bit I really like about Kevin's Bio is >Since I found the list I've been hanging on every word you people type >naive as an infant and giddy as a schoolgirl. >Hard to admit for a 260 pound guy. Do any of the rest of us want pictures =3F=3F and a hearty Yorkshire welcome to any giddy 260 pounders Richard Wilson trying to work out 260 pounds in real money. . . /galoot ramble mode on . . which turns out to be a (small) number of stones more than yours truly, and an appreciable size of hundredweights, which is a measure I relate to since my early days of footling around Uncles's farms and trials of strength on 56lb weights. . . /galoot ramble mode off. . . ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ++++ End of thread 50559 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50560 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130658 (thread 50560) ---- From: Brian Pennington Date: 2004-03-14 20:27:38 Subject: Re: Tool manufacturer info wanted At 04:30 PM 3/14/2004, Lamar keeney wrote: > The first is a block plane, looks identical to a Stanley 9 1/2, With > the cam lock undernenth the cap. >The iron is stamped SBS with Seagley underneath. GG's, According to Walter's big book 'o knowledge, Stanley manufactured Siegley block planes from 1901 to 1912 and marked the cutters SBS (Stanley Block Siegley). They also manufactured iron and transitional planes from 1901 to 1927 using the Siegley name and the cutters were marked either SSS (Stanley Steel Siegley) on the normal thickness (thin) irons or STS (Stanley Thick (Tapered) Siegley) on the old style tapered irons. In 1903 Siegley contracted to work for Stanley and agreed to assign any of his future patents to them and Stanley subsequently purchased Siegley's stock and business in 1905. Best, Brian ++++ End of thread 50560 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50561 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130659 (thread 50561) ---- From: Roger Date: 2004-03-15 08:50:47 Subject: Backsaw Maker ID I picked up a backsaw this weekend at the fleamarket. Nice early handle with split nuts. It has a steel back. No etch but it is stamped Kenyon Sykes & Co on the spine. I am assuming it is a British maker since I checked Erv's book and he doesn't list it. I also checked the index in a couple of Donnely's old catalogs without any luck. Anybody have any info on dates this manufacturer worked? Roger in AL ---- Start of Message 130699 (thread 50561) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 2004-03-15 16:58:28 Subject: Re: Backsaw Maker ID Roger asked: >I picked up a backsaw this weekend at the fleamarket. Nice early >handle with split nuts. It has a steel back. No etch but it is >stamped Kenyon Sykes & Co on the spine. I am assuming it is a >British maker ... . > >Anybody have any info on dates this manufacturer worked? Your assumption about this being a British maker is correct. Ken Roberts gives working dates of -1814 - 1817- for Kenyon, Sykes & Co., in his check-list of 19th century Sheffield saw makers (_Some 19th Century English Woodworking Tools_, c. 1980). Seems you have a fairly early saw, with what may be a relatively uncommon mark (given the relatively short working period). Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 130701 (thread 50561) ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-03-15 17:13:04 Subject: Re: Backsaw Maker ID Don/GG's, I have seen this reference to Ken Roberts before. Can some one explain? Is this a book I can acquire? I do like English saws. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, Massachusetts > Your assumption about this being a British maker is correct. Ken Roberts > gives working dates of -1814 - 1817- for Kenyon, Sykes & Co., in his > check-list of 19th century Sheffield saw makers (_Some 19th Century > English Woodworking Tools_, c. 1980). > > Seems you have a fairly early saw, with what may be a relatively > uncommon mark (given the relatively short working period). > > Don McConnell > Knox County, Ohio > ---- Start of Message 130718 (thread 50561) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 2004-03-16 07:28:59 Subject: Re: Backsaw Maker ID Alan Perreault asked: >I have seen this reference to Ken Roberts before. Can some one explain? Is >this a book I can acquire? > >I do like English saws. Ken Roberts' _Some 19th Century English Woodworking Tools_ was originally published in 1980 [ISBN 0-913602-68-X]. Unfortunately, it is effectively out of print. Though the book would have profited from professional editorial, proofreading and layout intervention, it is the product of a great deal of research by Ken, primarily focusing on Sheffield. Making use of directories, he compiled check-lists of Sheffield saw makers, edge tool makers, joiners' tool makers, plane makers, and brace & bit makers. (Plus Birmingham brace & bit makers and rule makers). In addition, he included advertisements from a number of firms, some price lists, a few pages from some of the Illustrated Sheffield Lists, as well as some descriptive text on steel making and tool making in Sheffield. And more. While it is regrettable that some of the shortcomings of this book tend to undermine its credibility, it is equally regrettable to deny ourselves the benefit of the vast amount of information which Ken Roberts provided in it. I've gladly put a lot of wear on my copy answering questions from fellow oldtools members. As to English saw makers, I'll simply say that I have reason to believe there is an effort underway to make more information available in the not too distant future. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ++++ End of thread 50561 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50562 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130660 (thread 50562) ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-03-14 11:06:01 Subject: A bench is born All right, so it took a little longer than expected. Not fine furniture, but it was fun. Thanks everyone for enduring my countless questions and providing good advice. Cheers, Kyle Accardi Portland, OR ++++ End of thread 50562 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50563 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130661 (thread 50563) ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-03-14 17:06:32 Subject: Electrolytic Rust Removal Q I would like to try this method of de-rusting old tools. Being a Yankee (that is a nice way of saying chea....er...frugal) I would like to use what I already have on hand. For power I have 2 12 VDC 3A regulated power supplies. Can I use one or both of these as a power source? Any help will be greatly appreciated. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ---- Start of Message 130674 (thread 50563) ---- From: hunter.cox@i... Date: 2004-03-15 15:00:20 Subject: Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal Q I just got my electrolysis rig up last week and have been impressed. I just use a 5-gallon bucket, get the WASHING SODA and dump a little bit (1-2 tablespoons) into the water - got the washing soda at the local grocery (I think they need to be well-stocked to carry it) and used an old file for the sacrificial electrode. For the power supply, a $20 battery charger (12 VDC/6A) is what I use, got it a W*L M*art in the automotive seciton. I just use some biding wire (I think it is zinc-plated steel) that is easily bent to hang the parts for zapping in the tank off a wood dowel I put across the top. The file that is sacrificial, it is just the right height for the bucket so the tang is even with the top, I just clamped it with the battery charger clip to the side of the bucket. They say that you get better contact if you wire brush/grind the contact surfaces a little. A lot of places talk about using SS as the electrode, but other sites say that makes the resulting waste liquid dangerous (chromium, etc). There are tons of resources on the web - here is one of many - http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp Check the archives, too. Hunter in Richmond ---- Start of Message 130679 (thread 50563) ---- From: "John Pesut" Date: 2004-03-15 15:27:13 Subject: Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal Q Ed, Maybe in series. Depending on the solution and the size (and I suppose the composition) of the "victim" my small tank draws over 3 amps occasionally. That's why an old battery charger works so well. Try it. I suppose your power supplies are fused the most it could cost you is a couple of quarters. Later, > I would like to try this method of de-rusting old tools. Being a Yankee > (that is a nice way of saying chea....er...frugal) I would like to use what > I already have on hand. For power I have 2 12 VDC 3A regulated power > supplies. Can I use one or both of these as a power source? Any help will be > greatly appreciated. ---- Start of Message 130682 (thread 50563) ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-03-15 12:40:43 Subject: Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal Q Bill Rittner wrote: > I would like to try this method of de-rusting old tools. Being a Yankee > (that is a nice way of saying chea....er...frugal) I would like to use what > I already have on hand. For power I have 2 12 VDC 3A regulated power > supplies. Can I use one or both of these as a power source? Any help will be > greatly appreciated. I *THINK* so... but get more opinions. I use an automotive battery charger which puts out DC (I think), in the 10A setting and for zapping draws about 2 to 3 A. I don't know what volts it puts out, but since it's charging a 12V battery... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130684 (thread 50563) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-15 20:44:25 Subject: re: Electrolytic Rust Removal Q I think the more amps you can get flowing, the faster that it'll work. I have a 6/12 V 2/6 amp charger that I set on the 12 v 6 amp settings. A bigger anode will also speed things up and get near max output out of whatever you are using. Especially if you can get a longer proximity with it. I was initially using a small carbon steel turning gouge and with a #5 plane body was only getting about 1 1/2 amps through the soup. I put a long farrier's rasp in as the anode and with the plane body close and parallel along the length was getting nearly 6 amps flow. About two -three hours in the soup and it was ready. I put other smaller parts in with the rasp and got around 3 amps showing on the meter. I have also learned there are a number of different solutions for your electrolyte; cleaning soda (Oxyclean or Clorox Oxy), baking soda, or even table salt can be used. ---- Start of Message 130685 (thread 50563) ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-03-15 15:55:26 Subject: RE: Electrolytic Rust Removal Q If you want to try a lower amperage supply, you could try cutting the amount of washing soda (or other additions) -- that should increase the resistance of the bath and cut the amount of current flowing. Of course, it will also run slower if there's less current. There will also be more voltage drop in the bath, but that's probably not a terrible thing since 12 volts is way more than is needed to reduce iron oxide to iron. Ken =20 -----Original Message----- From: John Pesut [mailto:the_tinker@w...]=20 Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 2:27 PM To: oldtools Cc: 0ldtools Subject: Re: [oldtools] Electrolytic Rust Removal Q Ed, Maybe in series. Depending on the solution and the size (and I suppose the composition) of the "victim" my small tank draws over 3 amps occasionally. That's why an old battery charger works so well. Try it. I suppose your power supplies are fused the most it could cost you is a couple of quarters. Later, > I would like to try this method of de-rusting old tools. Being a=20 > Yankee (that is a nice way of saying chea....er...frugal) I would like > to use what > I already have on hand. For power I have 2 12 VDC 3A regulated power=20 > supplies. Can I use one or both of these as a power source? Any help=20 > will be > greatly appreciated. ---- Start of Message 130691 (thread 50563) ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-03-15 14:41:27 Subject: Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal Q Jerry Palmer wrote: > I have also learned there are a number of different solutions for your electrolyte; cleaning soda (Oxyclean or Clorox Oxy), baking soda, or even table salt can be used. Careful with salt; I've read one of the byproducts there is chlorine gas (can someone confirm/deny this rumor? I'm no chemist). Probably not what you want. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130709 (thread 50563) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-15 20:10:46 Subject: Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal Q I use Arm & Hammer Washing Powder and it works just fine. As for battery chargers, check out this price at Harbor Freight. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=45005 Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Campbell" To: "oldtools" Cc: "oldtools" Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 2:41 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Electrolytic Rust Removal Q > Jerry Palmer wrote: > > > I have also learned there are a number of different solutions for > your electrolyte; cleaning soda (Oxyclean or Clorox Oxy), baking > soda, or even table salt can be used. > > > Careful with salt; I've read one of the byproducts there is chlorine > gas (can someone confirm/deny this rumor? I'm no chemist). > Probably not what you want. > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam > http://mail.yahoo.com > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130716 (thread 50563) ---- From: "John Pesut" Date: 2004-03-16 06:21:50 Subject: Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal Q I can't belive I just said that. My brain was thinking "parallel" and my fingers typed "series". Ed, if you want to try your power supplies hook them up in *parallel*. Same voltage, double the current capacity. __________________________ Anode + | | + 12V 12V - | | - ---------------------------------- "Victim" Sheesh. Good thing I'm not a doctor after all... > Ed, > > Maybe in series. Depending on the solution and the size ---- Start of Message 130748 (thread 50563) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-03-16 13:18:55 Subject: Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal Q Michael Campbell wrote: >Jerry Palmer wrote: > > I have also learned there are a number of different solutions for >your electrolyte; cleaning soda (Oxyclean or Clorox Oxy), baking >soda, or even table salt can be used. >Careful with salt; I've read one of the byproducts there is chlorine >gas (can someone confirm/deny this rumor? I'm no chemist). >Probably not what you want. Forget about salt. How many folks here are still using DHMO? http://www.dhmo.org/ N ---- Start of Message 130778 (thread 50563) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 2004-03-17 00:39:08 Subject: Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal Q On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:18:55 -0500, Nichael Cramer wrote: >Michael Campbell wrote: >>Jerry Palmer wrote: >> > I have also learned there are a number of different solutions for >>your electrolyte; cleaning soda (Oxyclean or Clorox Oxy), baking >>soda, or even table salt can be used. >>Careful with salt; I've read one of the byproducts there is chlorine >>gas (can someone confirm/deny this rumor? I'm no chemist). >>Probably not what you want. >Forget about salt. How many folks here are still using DHMO? >http://www.dhmo.org/ Wow! This stuff is everywhere! And is it ever hard to get rid of -- "Studies have shown that even after careful washing, food and produce that has been contaminated by DHMO remains tainted by DHMO." It's apparently a common industrial and commercial solvent, and it can act as a corrosive and an oxidizer. Do some people really use this in zap tanks? I don't think you want this stuff to get loose in your shop, because I suspect DHMO could cause some serious rust if it got in contact with tools. Before you rush to judgment, however, check out the other side of the story, at . These folks say it's environmentally safe, natural, even benign, and "while hydrogen hydroxide is sometimes a factor in these problems facing our world today, it is rarely the dangerous element." Nichael, thanks for sharing this informative site with us. Michael D. Sullivan Bethesda, MD (USA) ---- Start of Message 130780 (thread 50563) ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-03-16 21:54:35 Subject: Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal Q Funnily enough, there is a current slashdot story about this, "The city of Aliso Viejo, CA nearly banned foam cups when they learned they are produced from a substance known as 'dihydrogen monoxide.'" http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/16/1419252&mode=thread&tid=133&tid=186 The dope is here, http://www.snopes.com/toxins/dhmo.htm I love the internet, Kyle Accardi ---- Start of Message 130781 (thread 50563) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 2004-03-17 00:59:50 Subject: Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal Q I'm sure that's what prompted the posting here. DMHO.org is a great site nevertheless. On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:54:35 -0800, Kyle Accardi wrote: >Funnily enough, there is a current slashdot story about this, >"The city of Aliso Viejo, CA nearly banned foam cups when they learned they >are produced from a substance known as 'dihydrogen monoxide.'" >http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/16/1419252&mode=thread&tid=133 &tid=186 >The dope is here, >http://www.snopes.com/toxins/dhmo.htm >I love the internet, >Kyle Accardi >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools Michael D. Sullivan Bethesda, MD (USA) ---- Start of Message 130896 (thread 50563) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-19 05:44:32 Subject: Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal Q Hilarious! There is a sucker born everyday. On a similiar note I realized I should have posted more to the person who was worried about the stainless steel electrode in the rust electrolysis thread. If there is no Arsenic, Arsenate, or such compounds within the stainless steel alloy or any component being dunked into the bath then there is absolutely no danger of CCAs being formed. > From: Kyle Accardi > "The city of Aliso Viejo, CA nearly banned foam cups when they learned they > are produced from a substance known as 'dihydrogen monoxide.'" > > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/16/1419252&mode=thread&tid=133&tid= 186 > > The dope is here, > http://www.snopes.com/toxins/dhmo.htm ++++ End of thread 50563 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50564 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130663 (thread 50564) ---- From: Louis Michaud Date: 2004-03-15 13:44:11 Subject: 42x improvement, was: FS: Stanley 42x sawset > > > GG, > > One of the 42x I use was modified for fine toothed > saws by a previous owner. The plunger has been > filed thiner at the tip and he has made a custom > anvil to replace the factory installed one. The anvil > is thicker. The space between the anvil and the > blade holding "piston" is smaller. You can't use this > sawset on 28" 4 1/2 ppi rip saw... The piston has > a smaller distance to travel to grip a thin blade. It's > faster and more steady than the regular anvil where > the sawset has a chance to wobble before gripping > a thin blade. > The other modification is the lenghtening of the distance > between the top of the anvil and the slot at the bottom > for the height adjustment screw, the modified anvil is just > a little longer. This allows you to set smaller tooth without > bending the whole teeth. > Here are the specifics if you want to give it a try. The > location and the slope for the angled surface is the > same. Numbers is brackets are for the original anvil. > > Thickness: 11/32 (1/4) > | | > __ ___ ___ > | \ > | | 1 1/64 > | | 1 3/16 (63/64) > | _| (1 5/32) ___ > | |_ > |___| ____ > > Best, > > Louis Michaud > Rimouski, Quebec ++++ End of thread 50564 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50565 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130664 (thread 50565) ---- From: Louis Michaud Date: 2004-03-15 09:30:14 Subject: 42x improvement, was: FS: Stanley 42x sawset GG, One of the 42x I use was modified for fine toothed saws by a previous owner. The plunger has been filed thiner at the tip and he has made a custom anvil to replace the factory installed one. The anvil is thicker. The space between the anvil and the blade holding "piston" is smaller. You can't use this sawset on 28" 4 1/2 ppi rip saw... The piston has a smaller distance to travel to grip a thin blade. It's faster and more steady than the regular anvil where the sawset has a chance to wobble before gripping a thin blade. The other modification is the lenghtening of the distance between the top of the anvil and the slot at the bottom for the height adjustment screw, the modified anvil is just a little longer. This allows you to set smaller tooth without bending the whole teeth. Here are the specifics if you want to give it a try. The location and the slope for the angled surface is the same. Numbers is brackets are for the original anvil. Thickness: 11/32 (1/4) | | __ ___ ___ | \ | | 1 1/64 | | 1 3/16 (63/64) | _| (1 5/32) ___ | |_ |___| ____ Best, Louis Michaud Rimouski, Quebec ++++ End of thread 50565 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50566 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130665 (thread 50566) ---- From: "Clarke Green" Date: 2004-03-14 14:09:21 Subject: PATINA Report I went to my first PATINA sale/auction and had a fine time. I loaded up the van on Friday after having decided to lighten the load around the house and shop. It took a little intestinal fortitude to pile up lots of stuff that I really liked but simply had no real use for. I took off for Damascus about 5:30 AM and got there around 7:45. I could not get the boxes of tools out of the van quickly enough, eager buyers swarmed, quick deals were made and the stuff was flying away at a pretty good clip. My sales strategy was "better you than me". I decided that I would be satisfied that people would make better use of a lot of the stuff I had accumulated so I did not want to quibble over the price. I know that a lot of people got some great buys and that is always exciting. About 10:30-11:00 am things had slowed down pretty fast and I offered what I had left over to another fellow selling stuff at a really rock bottom price, he bargained me down to an embarrassingly low deal and off it all went. I counted up my cash and was really very happy. If I had the time or ambition to do so I could have made quite a bit more off of what I had, but it would have taken lots of time and some sharp trading. It was great fun to have someone ask what something cost (I did not price anything before the sale) and then try to break their arm grabbing for a wallet. I met Todd Hughes and sold him a pile of stuff that I am sure he will make some hay out of. I had a nice discussion with Tom Law and Chris Gochnour about the high priced and highly prized new dovetail saws. The conclusion was that you can do better, a lot better, getting a decent old saw and tuning it up properly. I bought Tom's video and recommend it to you all, It is informative and entertaining. I looked around the sale and found one or two things, but nothing earth shattering unless you call a full set of Sheffield pattern cabinet screwdrivers for $45.00 gloatable (beep Beeep). I was on the road home by just after noon and plan on investing the proceeds of the day into some tools that I will actually use and materials for a new bench. CAG ---- Start of Message 143314 (thread 50566) ---- From: "Foster, Jim" Date: 2005-03-14 10:14:39 Subject: RE: PATINA Report > > I started cleaning up an old hammer head last night in > preparation for re-handling and have a question (or two) > about it. I can make out C.S.Osborne 202 (or possibly 302) > and underneath it the name of a town in New Jersey. I think > it is Harrisburg or something like that. It's clearly > legible, I just don't remember - hey, I've slept since I > looked at it ;-) I'll call it an upholsterer's hammer, but > what do I know... Overall body length is about 5", with a > round face ~5/16 diameter. Nice curved body. I'm curious > about it 'cuz it came from my Grandaddy's tool chest. He > passed away in 1959 (born 1865) and I was given it along with > several other tools from his toolchest when I visited an aunt > in 1980. I've been carrying it around since and just now > getting around to putting it back to work. Any info would be > greatly appreciated. Osborne is perhaps the classic maker of leatherworking tools, so this is most likely a cobbler's or saddler's hammer. Someone on the list probably has an old catalog of theirs and can give you a more precise answer. Jim Foster Minnesota ______________________________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 143315 (thread 50566) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2005-03-14 08:18:42 Subject: Re: PATINA Report On 14 Mar 2005 at 11:00, Rodgers Charles wrote: > A really nice Millers Falls No 723 10" sweep brace. A quick > check of both Sandy's and Randy's sites shows no listing for it. > It looks like fairly recent vintage (maybe 50's). Any guesses? A mis-stamped 732? M-F was really consistent in that most standard product line braces used numbers ending in 2 for all ten-inch braces, and numbers ending in 3 for eight-inch braces. Of course there were exceptions for special cases like the Parsons brace (5010), or the Model 1950. but AFAIK these all ended in 0. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ______________________________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 143318 (thread 50566) ---- From: "Rodgers Charles" Date: 2005-03-14 11:25:57 Subject: RE: PATINA Report Ken offers an answer to my question: > > A really nice Millers Falls No 723 10" sweep brace. > > Any guesses? > > A mis-stamped 732? M-F was really consistent in that most > standard product line braces used numbers ending in 2 for all > ten-inch braces, and numbers ending in > 3 for eight-inch braces. Of course there were exceptions for > special cases like the Parsons brace (5010), or the Model > 1950. but AFAIK these all ended in 0. Thanks, Ken. That could be it but more likely is that I mis-read (or mis-remember) the stamp. I'll look at it again tonight. The full stamp actually has a "-10" on the end of the number, so it's definitely a 10" sweep, which tends to indicate that I mis-read it. FWIW, the handwritten price tag on it said #623, so I'm not the only one with CRS ;-) (the "R" means both "read" and "remember).... Charlie ______________________________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 143319 (thread 50566) ---- From: "Rodgers Charles" Date: 2005-03-14 11:30:26 Subject: RE: PATINA Report Jim gave me some good info about a C.S. Osborne hammer head: > Osborne is perhaps the classic maker of leatherworking tools, > so this is most likely a cobbler's or saddler's hammer. > Someone on the list probably has an old catalog of theirs and > can give you a more precise answer. Thanks, Jim. Grandaddy ran a sawmill and had several mules in harness so maybe he used it to repair tack. Charlie ______________________________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 143320 (thread 50566) ---- From: "Daniel E.L. Yurwit" Date: 2005-03-14 11:30:18 Subject: Re: PATINA Report Hi All, Yeah, what Jim said below. According to the DAT, C.S. (Charles Samuel) Osborne moved their plant out of Newark in 1906 (ahead of the curve.....most everyone else left shortly thereafter) to nearby Harrison, NJ. They continue to be a leading producer of leather working tools. I've always assumed that a lot (or all?) of their current products are out-sourced to the Far East, but I'd be curious if anyone knows if that assumption is correct. Dan, in Hightstown, NJ Osborne is perhaps the classic maker of leatherworking tools, so this is most likely a cobbler's or saddler's hammer. Someone on the list probably has an old catalog of theirs and can give you a more precise answer. Jim Foster Minnesota > > I started cleaning up an old hammer head last night in > preparation for re-handling and have a question (or two) > about it. I can make out C.S.Osborne 202 (or possibly 302) > and underneath it the name of a town in New Jersey. I think > it is Harrisburg or something like that. It's clearly > legible, I just don't remember - hey, I've slept since I > looked at it ;-) I'll call it an upholsterer's hammer, but > what do I know... Overall body length is about 5", with a > round face ~5/16 diameter. Nice curved body. I'm curious > about it 'cuz it came from my Grandaddy's tool chest. ______________________________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 143326 (thread 50566) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 2005-03-14 13:46:24 Subject: Re: PATINA Report Charlie asked: > > I started cleaning up an old hammer head last night in preparation > for re-handling and have a question (or two) about it. I can make > out C.S.Osborne 202 (or possibly 302) and underneath it the name of > a town in New Jersey. Their catalog is online at: http://www.csosborne.com/tools_1.html I don't see a 202 or 302, but if it could be a 222 than it is a magnetic tack hammer "used in many leather trades". Otherwise, all their tack hammers are listed as upholstery tack hammers. Good to see you again at PATINA, Charlie. I can't wait for the Fall event either. Regards, Steve ______________________________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 143327 (thread 50566) ---- From: "Rodgers Charles" Date: 2005-03-14 14:17:36 Subject: RE: PATINA Report As usual, Mom knows everything: Steve has identified my mystery hammer head. Although the marking depicted in the online catalog is different from the example I have, the shape, size and weight all coincide. And seeing that the middle digit is somewhat obscured on my hammer head, it is obviously a 2 and not an 0. So I have a No 222. Thanks, Charlie Rodgers Clinton, Maryland > Their catalog is online at: > > http://www.csosborne.com/tools_1.html > > I don't see a 202 or 302, but if it could be a 222 than it is > a magnetic tack hammer "used in many leather trades". > Otherwise, all their tack hammers are listed as upholstery > tack hammers. ______________________________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 143333 (thread 50566) ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2005-03-14 16:55:55 Subject: Re: PATINA Report > Charlie Rodgers asked: >> I started cleaning up an old hammer head last night in >> preparation >> for re-handling and have a question (or two) about it. I can >> make out C.S.Osborne 202 (or possibly 302) and underneath it >> the >> name of a town in New Jersey. and Steve helpfully added > Their catalog is online at: > http://www.csosborne.com/tools_1.html > I don't see a 202 or 302, but if it could be a 222 than it is > a magnetic tack hammer "used in many leather trades". > Otherwise, all their tack hammers are listed as upholstery > tack hammers. OK ... so does it look like this one? ....... http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/categories.php?cat_id Charlie, Your description sounds like a close match, although yours may be a bit smaller. The hammer in the photo came out of my late uncle's chair repair workshop. He passed away in 1980, and probably didn't spend mcuh more than 15 yrs on chair repairs (primarily refinishing & recaning) as a sideline activity. That would date this version roughly between 1965-1980. I like this hammer more than the other tack hammers I have, as it has a nice balance and heft. It is not magnetic, but it also has no product number stamped in the head. Comparing it to the versions shown in their online catalog, it appears that Osborne lowered their tool finish standards over the years, which was to be expected I guess. Regardless, the picture may give you an idea of the proportions appropriate for your rehandling effort. Charlie Driggs Newark DE ______________________________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 143346 (thread 50566) ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2005-03-14 20:17:15 Subject: Re: PATINA Report >On to Tom Law's table. As I walked up I heard him telling >someone (who knows how many times he's told it) that yes, it's >true that he no longer sharpens. Took up too much time and his >eyes aren't up to the task. He had probably ~75+ ready-to-use >saws, saw sets, and both tape and DVD versions of his saw >sharpening tutorial. I have to comment on this because it made me laugh at the time. I stopped Tom Law's table twice, once to look over his saws and then later to pick up a copy of John Alexander's video (Build a Chair from a Tree). During the two stops, I heard Tom explaining at least THREE times that "yes, he gave up sharpening...it was taking up too much of his time, etc, etc..." I would have gone MAD if I had to answer that same question so many times...but Tom was a true gentleman about it. Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ______________________________________________________________ ++++ End of thread 50566 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50567 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130678 (thread 50567) ---- From: "Bret Rochotte" Date: 2004-03-14 19:33:10 Subject: NOT tool p*rn, made a router Hello; I made a 271 copy, cast out of aluminum. Here is the url: http://mypeoplepc.com/members/cwanimal/toolpixs/id1.html I haven't ground the "cutter" yet. If this works I will try to cast one out of brass. I plan on making a wooden sole so it doesn't mark the work piece. I've never cast brass before, so any advise would be appreciated. I have a few of CW Ammen's books and he mentions the use of "flux." Is that really necessary or can you just heat, skim and pour? I have a small furnace that I fire with coal, coke and sometimes charcoal. It gets hot enough to melt cast iron; I need to watch the fire when using a cast iron pot, I melted a hole in one sometime ago when heating aluminum. I hope everyone is having a good weekend, Bret Bret and Wendy Rochotte New Bremen, Ohio rochotte@b... ---- Start of Message 130696 (thread 50567) ---- From: LLesniak@a... Date: 2004-03-15 16:39:21 Subject: Re: NOT tool p*rn, made a router In a message dated 3/15/2004 4:02:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, rochotte@b... writes: I have a small furnace that I fire with coal, coke and sometimes charcoal. It gets hot enough to melt cast iron; I need to watch the fire when using a cast iron pot, I melted a hole in one sometime ago when heating aluminum. Bret, Excellent router! But I have to question if your furnace is hot enough to melt cast iron. If you're using something along the lines of the Gingery furnace or "flowerpot crucible" it won't get hot enough to melt iron. It will, however, wear out a cast iron crucible after several heats. I may be wrong but it's my understanding that you need a cupola furnace to melt iron. My local blacksmithing club/ABANA affiliate has a tape in our lending library of the iron pour at the SOFA (I think that's Southern Ohio Forge and Anvil) meet and it's really something to see. They fire up a cupola furnace in the middle of a downpour, then proceed to tap several pours of molten iron. Wish I had been there! What type of furnace are you using? Larry ++++ End of thread 50567 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50568 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130683 (thread 50568) ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-03-15 15:51:17 Subject: FS-Stanley #888 Toolbox I am selling this for a friend. Standard Galloot terms. First email wanting this box gets it. Here are some pics. http://members.cox.net/wcrittner/Toolbox%201.jpg http://members.cox.net/wcrittner/Toolbox%202.jpg http://members.cox.net/wcrittner/Toolbox%203.jpg http://members.cox.net/wcrittner/Toolbox%204.jpg Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ---- Start of Message 130698 (thread 50568) ---- From: "Pete Bergstrom" Date: 2004-03-15 15:53:40 Subject: Re: FS-Stanley #888 Toolbox "Bill Rittner" wrote: > I am selling this for a friend. Standard Galloot terms. First email wanting > this box gets it. I guess I could paint over some of that rust. I'll offer $20. :) Pete ---- Start of Message 130700 (thread 50568) ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-03-15 17:07:30 Subject: Re: FS-Stanley #888 Toolbox My appologies to all. In my haste I neglected to include a price for this Stanley toolbox. $125 Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ++++ End of thread 50568 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50569 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130690 (thread 50569) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-15 16:16:58 Subject: Ian Kirby dovetails (was "requesting information . . .") Another advantage of cutting the dovetails a little short is that you don't need to use a special grooved caul when you clamp right on the joint. ++++ End of thread 50569 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50570 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130692 (thread 50570) ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-03-15 18:21:40 Subject: RE: Requesting - Opinions/Techniques/Methodologies for Making Wood Moldings By H Just saw a similar article by Ian Kirby (collected in the FWW "Drawers, Boxes and Carcases" book). Basically, instead of measuring the tails so that they're slightly longer than the mating board's thickness (and stand proud), he makes them about 1/32-in shorter so they're slightly below the surface of the mating board. Reason is to simplify glue up and to allow the final total width of the drawer to be adjusted by planing the whole side, while minimizing the risk of tearing out the end grain of the dovetails. It also makes it easier to plane off the marks from laying out the joint. He also makes the *inside* faces of the drawer boards the reference faces and measures everything relative to them. Ken Meltsner ++++ End of thread 50570 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50571 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130694 (thread 50571) ---- From: "Patrick Olguin" Date: 2004-03-15 22:51:06 Subject: Some NeanderDorking Progress GG's, I've been able to spend a bit of time on the big-ass (quite large, Jeff) cherry mantelshelf. So far it's just a really nice, smooooooth, big plank. Next step is to stick the crown moulding and put a nice radius on the shelf. http://www.klownhammer.org/progress Paddy ---- Start of Message 130931 (thread 50571) ---- From: Kirk Eppler Date: 2004-03-19 11:45:17 Subject: Re: Some NeanderDorking Progress Jeez Paddy Aren't you taking a heck of a risk here. http://www.klownhammer.org/progress/2jointing1.jpg I mean, come on. Don't you guys down there have hellacious earthquakes every 30 seconds or so, and you could knock that beautiful Jointer to the ground, risking broken totes, cracked cheeks, etc. Patrick Olguin wrote: > So far it's just a really nice, smooooooth, big plank. And a nice one at that. -- Kirk Eppler, a former SoCal native, now residing 404 miles to the north. Tongue Firmly in Cheek, doing the old, "Keep the furrinerrs from wanting to move to god's country" routine here, offsetting Paddy's sweating in shorts & T shirt routine. Global Mfg Science and Technology Eppler.Kirk@g... ++++ End of thread 50571 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50572 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130695 (thread 50572) ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-03-15 15:01:26 Subject: re: Requesting - Opinions/Techniques/Methodologies for Making Wood Moldings By H >> Last night I was reading, on a different subject, Ian Kirby's "The >> Complete >> Dovetail" and had an epiphany when he stated that pins and tails should be >> marked a bit shallow, below the surface, to allow for cleaning up the >> outsides and having reference surfaces to plane to. Now, I had always >> made >> mine flush or just a bit proud for a light block plane clean up. >> Subsequently, I spent a lot of time trying to keep the boards from being >> marked or nicked and the dimensions correct. My dovetails don't look too >> shabby, but I was sure spending too much time making them when I could >> have >> just cut them a bit shallow and cleaned up the outside with a plane and >> been >> done with it. After that humbling experience, I figured I probably should >> seek some additional guidance on my plane class materials. Can you expand on marking them a bit shallow? I'm picturing them marked down inside the depth, but I think you mean marking them smaller than they are supposed to be? Epson Inkjet Printer FAQ: http://home.att.net/~arwomack01/index.html 24 Days to MH automation: http://alan.firebin.net/24_days.html -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ++++ End of thread 50572 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50573 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130697 (thread 50573) ---- From: "John J Black" Date: 2004-03-14 11:53:08 Subject: Requesting - Opinions/Techniques/Methodologies for Making Wood Moldings By Hand Good Morning GG's, It's been a busy few months without much time for looking at the post's so I hope you will excuse me for not posting much lately. I see we have a lot of new faces around, so I'll say a group hello to all of you :) I have a request . I'm putting together materials for a class next month to teach the art of tuning up planes and making wood moldings by hand. Now I have some of the standard literature on the subject and have written some too, but I was wondering if any of you have put together some additional text which I may add to my materials. I'm primarily looking for your opinions/techniques/methodologies on making wood molding from dimensioned stock. I have made quite a bit of moldings myself over the past few years and figured I was pretty good at it. However ... (I'm going to get a bit off subject here, but promise to get back on) Last night I was reading, on a different subject, Ian Kirby's "The Complete Dovetail" and had an epiphany when he stated that pins and tails should be marked a bit shallow, below the surface, to allow for cleaning up the outsides and having reference surfaces to plane to. Now, I had always made mine flush or just a bit proud for a light block plane clean up. Subsequently, I spent a lot of time trying to keep the boards from being marked or nicked and the dimensions correct. My dovetails don't look too shabby, but I was sure spending too much time making them when I could have just cut them a bit shallow and cleaned up the outside with a plane and been done with it. After that humbling experience, I figured I probably should seek some additional guidance on my plane class materials. So humbly I am seeking some wisdom from the porch. I will gladly acknowledge anyone who contributes some materials and all comments and opinions are welcome. For now, and because my time is short, I'm going to put materials in book form for my students, but eventually, it will go up on a web page for all to utilize. Best Regards, John John J Black, a Michigaloot who inside thrashing computer-electrons around this morning, but hoping to get some more shop time in this afternoon to finish a Mission Coffee Table for SWMBO, but that is another story ... ---- Start of Message 130712 (thread 50573) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-03-16 07:58:20 Subject: RE: Requesting - Opinions/Techniques/Methodologies for Making Wood Moldings By H : -----Original Message----- : From: Alan Womack [mailto:arwbackup@w...] : Sent: 15 March 2004 23:01 : To: oldtools : Subject: re: [oldtools] Requesting - Opinions/Techniques/Methodologies : for Making Wood Moldings By Hand : : Can you expand on marking them a bit shallow? I'm picturing : them marked down : inside the depth, but I think you mean marking them smaller : than they are : supposed to be? Butting in ................ On my web site - Projects - A Bookcase in Oak is a drawing showing this approach to dovetailing. Highly recommended, but you do need to be able to start a sawcut without rounding the arrises of the pin ends, etc. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 130714 (thread 50573) ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-03-16 09:16:23 Subject: Re: Requesting - Opinions/Techniques/Methodologies for Making Wood Moldings By H Meltsner, Kenneth wrote: > Just saw a similar article by Ian Kirby (collected in the FWW "Drawers, > Boxes and Carcases" book). Basically, instead of measuring the tails so > that they're slightly longer than the mating board's thickness (and > stand proud), he makes them about 1/32-in shorter so they're slightly > below the surface of the mating board. > > Reason is to simplify glue up and to allow the final total width of the > drawer to be adjusted by planing the whole side... On this page: http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/articles/markingtools.cfm (scroll down to "Dovetail Shoulder Lines") Kirby makes the (once it's pointed out) obvious observation that "When you make a dovetailed box or drawer, the important dimension is the overall length of the parts..." You cannot plane the DT ends without messing up your dimensions. BugBear ---- Start of Message 130737 (thread 50573) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-16 16:27:07 Subject: RE: Requesting - Opinions/Techniques/Methodologies for Making Wood Moldings By H Today is a great day. Found one of the best websites I've seen on using handtools. I speak, of course, of just having clicked on the link at the bottom of Mr. Gorman's post and going to his site. Fantasticly informative site, Mr. Gorman. Thank you. Jerry ++++ End of thread 50573 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50574 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130706 (thread 50574) ---- From: "James Iwanicki" Date: 2004-03-15 21:09:38 Subject: WNYATCA March meeting Just a quick line to advise the local neander galoots that the Western NY Antique Tool Collectors Assn. will meet Sunday, March 21st. Meeting will again be held at the Holiday Inn, Batavia, NY (Crystal Room) off Rt. 98, NYS Thruway exit 48. This is midway between Buffalo and Rochester. Our program will be on ROUTERS! Lars Larson will give a talk on hand routers. The membership is encouraged to bring unusual items for display. 10:00 AM Setup for trading and displays in the Crystal room. Coffee and tea provided. 11:30 AM Meeting begins in the Crystal room. Agenda: Review club business, news, "Whats-its", displays, and program. Meeting cost will be $5.00 at the door. This covers the cost of the room and coffee and tea. You are welcome to go out to a local establishment or eat at the hotel if you desire. Thanx for your indulgence in reading my rambling notice. Jim Iwanicki Neander Lurker ++++ End of thread 50574 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50575 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130708 (thread 50575) ---- From: "Eric Coyle " Date: 2004-03-16 03:34:50 Subject: Goodell Pratt bench drill press question I finally found one! As least I think it's a goodell pratt, due to the chuck characteristics. I haven't been able to find the name anywhere though, but these folks are known for small light name stampings. It's a single speed one, and I can't find it in the GP catalogue I have, so perhaps it's not , but it does have many of the same characteristics as the catalogue engravings. appeared to be basically intact, and with some oilitation, cranks and spins with ease. But I need to find someone else who has one, cause I know I'm missing the friction between the flywheel and the shaft. I don't know if it is a spring missing, or whether the friction might have been from a bushing and grease, or perhaps even a leather bushing. without the friction, the flywheel stays put and the feed feeds way too agressively. So perhaps someone in the GP/ MFia can illuminate me. Eric in Cowtown ++++ End of thread 50575 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50576 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130710 (thread 50576) ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-03-15 20:24:59 Subject: It's getting there. I'm not finished, obviously, but I thought I'd post a couple of pictures of the almost-mythical table I've been working on since October. I started the shelf tonight and then I'll start applying the finish to the underside of the top and shelf because it will be easier to finish them un-assembled than when they are put together. The side panels, "tropical hardwood" plywood, are already finished with blond shellac, then orange shellac then wax. The maple will eventually be more golden then the unfinished maple. I'm still working on just how I'll get it to the right color. First, here's a picture from when I was beveling the top. That's a Steve Knight razee Jack with rock-maple, end-grain curls. Yup, end grain. http://www.umich.edu/~amidkiff/projects/tvtable/endgraincurls.jpg Here's one of the table without the top. Again, there will be a shelf below the top. I'm affixing the top and the shelf with buttons inserted in the slots cut into the sides. http://www.umich.edu/~amidkiff/projects/tvtable/sidenotop.jpg The last one I just placed the top on and it will give you some idea, again without the shelf. http://www.umich.edu/~amidkiff/projects/tvtable/sidewithtop.jpg It's no great work of art, but I've learned a huge amount building this. 16 m&t joints, three boards edge jointed on the top, and three on the shelf, plus frame and panels on the sides really helped me get a lot of practice in. The last 4 m&t's were way much better than the first 12. (I never said I was a fast learner) All hand tools, made in my apartment. Once I finish it I'll post a complete list of what I used. AAAndrew Who's now getting pretty quick at edge jointing in Durham, North Carolina. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130898 (thread 50576) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-19 05:57:55 Subject: RE: It's getting there. Great looking project, Andrew. ++++ End of thread 50576 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50577 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130711 (thread 50577) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 2004-03-15 07:25:28 Subject: In All Its glory, You Gotta See It Galoots, It certainly seems to be in original condition. There is however solid evidence elsewhere it has been lightly and intelligently used. The age-old question for this list remains, is it a user or is it a collectible? Look: < http://www.mjdtools.com/auction/graphics/a75546.htm > Whomever buys it surely gets the respect and "patina" wearing such a placeholder in Oldtools List history deserves! However, I do suspect that one Big Boy dealer might buy it solely to blow it up! Don't let THAT happen! *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * *********************************************** ---- Start of Message 130724 (thread 50577) ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-03-16 08:12:54 Subject: Re: In All Its glory, You Gotta See It Karl, I would be tempted since it's the only one I don't have, but they don't say what size it is. That's like saying they are selling a type one Stanley plane, but not telling you if it is a #3 or a #8! I also notice the descriptions says the Oldtools List has, "become the New Frontier of tool collecting" - even though we all know there are no collectors on the list. :-) Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl W. Sanger" To: "oldtools" Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 6:25 AM Subject: [oldtools] In All Its glory, You Gotta See It > Galoots, > It certainly seems to be in original condition. There is however solid > evidence elsewhere it has been lightly and intelligently used. The age-old > question for this list remains, is it a user or is it a collectible? Look: > < http://www.mjdtools.com/auction/graphics/a75546.htm > > Whomever buys it surely gets the respect and "patina" wearing such a > placeholder in Oldtools List history deserves! However, I do suspect that > one Big Boy dealer might buy it solely to blow it up! Don't let THAT happen! ---- Start of Message 130779 (thread 50577) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 2004-03-17 00:50:28 Subject: Re: In All Its glory, You Gotta See It On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:25:28 -0500, Karl W. Sanger wrote: >Galoots, It certainly seems to be in original condition. There is >however solid evidence elsewhere it has been lightly and intelligently >used. The age-old question for this list remains, is it a user or is it >a collectible? Look: < >http://www.mjdtools.com/auction/graphics/a75546.htm > Whomever buys it >surely gets the respect and "patina" wearing such a placeholder in >Oldtools List history deserves! However, I do suspect that one Big Boy >dealer might buy it solely to blow it up! Don't let THAT happen! You would think that a knowledgeable dealer would provide the size number, rather than the length. Just like there's a world of difference between the identical-length #602 and #2 planes, there are times when a 7-1/2 will do the job but a 6-3/4 won't. Would Martin advertise a "hollow, 9-1/2 inches long, without any indication of its size (i.e., width or number)? I have one of these in pristine condition, and personally, I can just barely use my Type 1 7-1/2 and sometimes wish I had a 7-5/8 for the times when a 7-1/2 just doesn't feel right. And then there are the collectors, who want a matched set of all of the sizes from 6-3/4 to 7-3/4, in 1/8" increments, ideally all with the same owner's mark. Michael D. Sullivan Bethesda, MD (USA) ---- Start of Message 130790 (thread 50577) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 2004-03-17 07:24:14 Subject: Re: In All Its glory, You Gotta See It Galoots, Spoken like a true user and not a collector about the type 1 Galoot hat for sale, Michael wrote: "You would think that a knowledgeable dealer would provide the size number, rather than the length." Well, correct if anyone thought such a revered hat would be a "user". But, certainly no one would buy it to wear it! And, while one can sort of understand why some collectors buy all the types of each model, no one is going to buy all the hat sizes of a collectible hat - are they? *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * *********************************************** ---- Start of Message 130798 (thread 50577) ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-03-17 08:01:41 Subject: Re: In All Its glory, You Gotta See It Michael, I would settle for just a size 7. I'm a user, not a collector. :-) Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- Michael D. Sullivan said: > ... then there are the collectors, who want a matched set > of all of the sizes from 6-3/4 to 7-3/4, in 1/8" increments, ideally all with > the same owner's mark. ++++ End of thread 50577 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50578 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130713 (thread 50578) ---- From: "Thomas Graham" Date: 2004-03-16 04:03:50 Subject: Missing OT Digest All, My OTL Digest posting for Mar 14 seems to have gone astray or never made it thru cyberspace. Would someone please send me a copy. TIA, Tom Graham Round Hill, VA 20142 ---- Start of Message 130726 (thread 50578) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-16 10:13:45 Subject: Re: Missing OT Digest Hi Tom & All, Tom's request for a digest from the 14th leads me to ask if something has been acting up at Cornell the past few days? Maybe there was no such digest? I get individual messages vs digests, but I had some long stretches with no messages and one message from the 14th and another one or two from the 15th have just shown up today. A message I sent on the 14th was also bounced back from Cornell for no known reason. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130762 (thread 50578) ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-03-16 20:34:45 Subject: Re: Missing OT Digest > Tom's request for a digest from the 14th leads me to ask if something > has been acting up at Cornell the past few days? Maybe there was no such > digest? I get individual messages vs digests, but I had some long > stretches with no messages and one message from the 14th and another one > or two from the 15th have just shown up today. A message I sent on the > 14th was also bounced back from Cornell for no known reason. > Yeah...methinks the list was down on most of the 14th. I replied to some message on that day and didn't see it on the list until Monday (15th). I also saw no other OldTools messages for most of the 14th as well. These things happen from time to time - personally, I am amazed this Internet thing works at all (and I am a software guy by trade). Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ++++ End of thread 50578 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50579 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130720 (thread 50579) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-16 08:05:04 Subject: Fwd: Re: [oldtools] It's getting there. > I'm not finished, obviously, but I thought I'd post a > couple of pictures of the almost-mythical table I've > been working on since October. I started the shelf Thanks for sharing, Andrew. Really nice table. I particularly like the contrasting color on the sides. I notice two mortises on the front-back rail on the inside. What are those for? The shelf? > top. That's a Steve Knight razee Jack with rock-maple, > end-grain curls. Yup, end grain. > http://www.umich.edu/~amidkiff/projects/tvtable/endgraincurls.jpg Impressive. I'm afraid my end-grain shavings don't look so nice :-) -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130722 (thread 50579) ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-03-16 05:56:01 Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [oldtools] It's getting there. Thanks! Those mortises are really slots for the "buttons" to secure the top and the shelf. See #5 about half way down the page at http://www.charm.net/~jriley/ttop.html Probably overkill for the size, but a good experience. As for the proportions, I didn't measure anything with a ruler until now when I'm making the shelf. I just figured out a good height, marked it on a leg board, cut three more just like it and went from there. I used my TV, this was originally a TV table, for the important dimensions. It just had to be at least large enough to hold it. Yeah, the Steve Knight jack plane is really sweet. I even got some better curls but I liked the look of a whole plane full of the smaller curls. Last night I was jointing the boards for the shelf using my Parplus jack to take off the rough sawn edges, an MF smoother to shape any irregularities, and then my Knight jointer to eventually take it down to a perfect edge. It's fun! (or I'm sick) Thanks again for your kind words! Andrew --- Larry Marshall wrote: > Thanks for sharing, Andrew. Really nice table. I > particularly > like the contrasting color on the sides. I notice > two mortises on > the front-back rail on the inside. What are those > for? The > shelf? > > > top. That's a Steve Knight razee Jack with > rock-maple, > > end-grain curls. Yup, end grain. > > > http://www.umich.edu/~amidkiff/projects/tvtable/endgraincurls.jpg > > Impressive. I'm afraid my end-grain shavings don't > look so nice > :-) > > -- > Cheers --- Larry Marshall > Quebec City, QC > http://www.woodnbits.com > > Archive: > http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web > interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 50579 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50580 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130721 (thread 50580) ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-03-16 07:52:02 Subject: Bookshelf strength Most of the bookcases I have have very heavy loads on them, and the shelves sag over time -- this is even true of some rough shelves made of 2x10's with a 36" span (supporting large heavy law books). I have seen several things in old commercial library shelves intended to prevent sagging. One is an iron rod lying off center in a groove in the shelf. The ends of the boards have an iron end piece that allows the iron rod to be tightened by screw threads, putting the board under compression, with the compression extered closer to the bottom of the board than the top. Another appeared to have two flat iron straps inletted on end, running the length of the board. I could not see how deep they were. The old capitol law library had some shelves that were about 1.25" thick, and appeared to be contructed like a hollow door though the thickness of the skins and the interior details are unknown to me. Anybody seen any good techniques for preventing sag over time? John Lederer Oregon, Wisconsin ---- Start of Message 130723 (thread 50580) ---- From: hunter.cox@i... Date: 2004-03-16 09:03:24 Subject: Re: Bookshelf strength The double skin design you talk about is a torsion box IIRC. this is a good way to make a lightweight but strong shelf, they just have internal ribs, you have to ensure that everything is glued up good or there is not a lot of strength. I usually just add a stick of wood (glue it good) to the front of the shelf that is flush with the top and overhangs the bottom, but most that I have built are not a full 3 feet. Sort of looks like an L laying down on its side, makes the shelf look substantial and acts like an "I" beam - you could put one on the back too ----------------------------------- | |__________________| |_| I seem to recall that there was some article in FWW or some such publication comparing relative strength of shelving material, from MDF, poplar, pine, birch plywood, I seem to recall that the solid wood was doing pretty good and the MDF wasnt so hot. As a point of reference I have some 3/4" MDF shelves that I use for record album storage that is about 2.5' long and they haven't sagged on me yet (at least 4-5 years). Hunter in Richmond ---- Start of Message 130725 (thread 50580) ---- From: "Bill Ghio" Date: 2004-03-16 09:59:23 Subject: RE: Bookshelf strength -----Original Message----- From: John Lederer Subject: [oldtools] Bookshelf strength Most of the bookcases I have have very heavy loads on them, and the shelves sag over time -- this is even true of some rough shelves made of 2x10's with a 36" span (supporting large heavy law books). Anybody seen any good techniques for preventing sag over time? ________________________ If the shelves are fixed you can run a cleat along the full length of the back. I did some 30-inch adjustable shelving in a built-in bookshelf that I used for three years before selling the house. Did not notice any sag during that period. The shelving was 1" plyw**d w/ 1" x 1 1/8" hardwood splined and glued to the front edge and a 1" x 1" splined and glued piece on the back edge. While I did not use them for an extended period, I did weight them to the best of my ability, e.g., a complete set of FWW took up better than 60 inches of shelf space. The shelves were deep (don't remember exactly) and some had two rows of books. Bill ---- Start of Message 130740 (thread 50580) ---- From: "Foster, Jim" Date: 2004-03-16 10:39:35 Subject: RE: Bookshelf strength First, for the general question of "How much will my shelves sag?" anyone interested should check out the Sagulator: http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator.htm The threaded rods sound very much like the truss rods in=20 guitar necks. Would probably work, but sound like work. B^) Since stiffness goes up as the cube of the thickness (no snickering in the back there!!) the suggestions to put an extra strip on the front, back, or both give you a lot of support for the amount of wood. If glued/screwed securely to the shelf it effectively increases the = thickness. Often it doesn't take a lot to make a big difference. If you take a=20 36" x 8" x 3/4" doug fir shelf and uniformly put 500 lbs of books on it, the Sagulator says that you'll get about 1/2" of deflection*. If you make that "shelf" 1.5" deep and 2" thick, the sag is about .15".=20 So adding two strips of wood, 3/4" thick and 1 1/4" wide to the front and back of the shelves will make a whale of a difference in the=20 sag.=20 The species makes a big difference too. Eastern white pine would have sagged almost 9/10", nearly twice as saggy as the doug fir. Oh, and this particular doug fir was "coastal" - the others were not nearly as stiff. Hickory would probably be a good choice for shelves. B^) And things like MDF or particle board were pretty bad, though I've added 1" strips of = oak to some particle board shelves that were in our house when we bought it, = and that made a tremendous difference to them.=20 *Initial deflections. Over time you can expect another 50% or so of = further sag, so this could end up at 3/4" after a while.=20 Jim Foster Minnesota > -----Original Message----- > From: John Lederer [mailto:john@j...] > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 7:52 AM > To: oldtools > Subject: [oldtools] Bookshelf strength >=20 >=20 > Most of the bookcases I have have very heavy loads on them, and the=20 > shelves sag over time -- this is even true of some rough=20 > shelves made of=20 > 2x10's with a 36" span (supporting large heavy law books). >=20 > I have seen several things in old commercial library shelves=20 > intended to=20 > prevent sagging. One is an iron rod lying off center in a=20 > groove in the=20 > shelf. The ends of the boards have an iron end piece that allows the=20 > iron rod to be tightened by screw threads, putting the board under=20 > compression, with the compression extered closer to the bottom of the=20 > board than the top. >=20 > Another appeared to have two flat iron straps inletted on=20 > end, running=20 > the length of the board. I could not see how deep they were. >=20 > The old capitol law library had some shelves that were about 1.25"=20 > thick, and appeared to be contructed like a hollow door though the=20 > thickness of the skins and the interior details are unknown to me. >=20 > Anybody seen any good techniques for preventing sag over time? ---- Start of Message 130764 (thread 50580) ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-03-16 20:53:14 Subject: Re: Bookshelf strength I know this doesn't answer the question, but... At my old job, I used to have a "half-height" set of wide shelves that I made to sit on the back of my (goverment issue) desk. There were essentially just a big box with shelves in it. When the shelves started to sag too much, I just emptied it out, flipped the whole set of shelves over and then reloaded them. That was normally good for a couple of years... Bruce Love ---- Start of Message 130791 (thread 50580) ---- From: newworldmagic@c... Date: 2004-03-17 12:28:14 Subject: Re: Bookshelf strength for standard "working shelves" I use plain old 3/4 pine, but I dadoe all 3 sides of the shelf into the case (back and both sides). My "typical" set is 4' wide and uses 12" wide stock (11 3/4 deep shelves). I've got a set I made back in college 15 years ago that has a barely noticable sag. none of the "newer" ones show any noticable sag. They're all loaded with my academic library (current shelf volume is 6 sets of shelves, 4' wide and 5' high. 5 rows of books in each unit (including the top), and I need to find space for more shelves.... CHeap, solid, and they seem to last forever. eventually I'm going to have to get out of the "temporary" shelves and build some nicer furniture type ones, but I have no idea when.... --JD > Most of the bookcases I have have very heavy loads on them, and the > shelves sag over time -- this is even true of some rough shelves made > of 2x10's with a 36" span (supporting large heavy law books). > > I have seen several things in old commercial library shelves intended > to prevent sagging. One is an iron rod lying off center in a groove in > the shelf. The ends of the boards have an iron end piece that allows > the iron rod to be tightened by screw threads, putting the board under > compression, with the compression extered closer to the bottom of the > board than the top. > > Another appeared to have two flat iron straps inletted on end, running > the length of the board. I could not see how deep they were. > > The old capitol law library had some shelves that were about 1.25" > thick, and appeared to be contructed like a hollow door though the > thickness of the skins and the interior details are unknown to me. > > Anybody seen any good techniques for preventing sag over time? > > > John Lederer Oregon, Wisconsin > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To > unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ++++ End of thread 50580 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50581 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130727 (thread 50581) ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-03-16 09:24:58 Subject: Saw file holder - how to use? Greetings GG's, I picked up a saw file handle that apparently is missing a piece and an instruction booklet. It has a arm that sticks out to one side that looks like it should have a rod in it that I presume is to ride in the groove of adjacent teeth to keep the angle of the file from varying. The rod would lie parallel to the saw file IOW. But there is also a serrated edge on the top of the brass ferrule arrangement that makes NO sense to me. Anyone got one of these? I could send a pic to anyone who is totally confused by my convoluted description. TIA Tom (somebody please tell me that this is a rare and priceless handtool that MJD would love to feature on the cover of his next tool porn catalogue (sp. in deference to RW) ---- Start of Message 130734 (thread 50581) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-16 16:14:20 Subject: re: Saw file holder - how to use? A pic would be real helpful. At least to me cause I get confused real easy. Jerry ++++ End of thread 50581 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50582 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130728 (thread 50582) ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-03-16 09:26:10 Subject: Can I host a pic or two? To the gracious Galoot who has extended an offer and whose name I am blanking on.......... If so, Thanks in advance Tom ++++ End of thread 50582 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50583 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130729 (thread 50583) ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-03-16 09:28:24 Subject: polishing lucite? Hi Gang, So I have these "Shark-O-Lite handles that have rattled around in toolboxes too many years an need a good polishing up. Obviously, machine polishing could overheat the surface quickly .... anyone have a tried and true method? TIA Tom ---- Start of Message 130750 (thread 50583) ---- From: "Peter Williams" Date: 2004-03-17 06:44:00 Subject: RE: polishing lucite? > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas Johnson [mailto:thjo@f...] > > So I have these "Shark-O-Lite handles that have rattled around in > toolboxes too many years an need a good polishing up. > Start with a grade of wet'n'dry paper that will remove the scratches you have, work down to say 800 or 1000 grit. Then polish with a liquid or cream metal polish such as "Brasso" or "Autosol", the white, gritty type of toothpaste will also work at a pinch. -- Peter Williams - Geelong ---- Start of Message 130763 (thread 50583) ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-03-16 20:42:11 Subject: Re: polishing lucite? Thomas Johnson asked: >> >> So I have these "Shark-O-Lite handles that have rattled around in >> toolboxes too many years an need a good polishing up. >> and Peter answered: > > Start with a grade of wet'n'dry paper that will remove the > scratches you have, work down to say 800 or 1000 grit. > Then polish with a liquid or cream metal polish such as > "Brasso" or "Autosol", the white, gritty type of toothpaste > will also work at a pinch. Peter is right on target. I have a Parsons De Luxe Brace which has permaloid which has seen better days. I have always intended to do something to smooth out the scratches. I got some motivation this past Saturday. A dealer at the PATINA tool meet had a permaloid brace (not a Parsons De Luxe, mind you) with spectacular permaloid and chrome. He was asking $300. But the beauty of that unmolested Permaloid has inspired me to get around to touching it up. I asked around to some of the chemist/polymer scientist types at work. The idea is to start off at the highest grit that will smooth out the scratches and dings on your plastic. Then increase grits as you would in scary sharpening. Finish up with a polish. Some recommened DuPont red auto polish, while others recommended the white grade. One guy recommended using 3M micromesh instead of wet/dry sandpaper. If you are lucky and don't have extensive scratching, you may go direct to polish. Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 130768 (thread 50583) ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-03-16 21:56:39 Subject: Re: polishing lucite? Steve, I sure would like to here what your results are when you're done cleaning that Permaloid. I, ah, I mean, my friend, has a couple of those Parsons red braces, which need cleaning up, and I'm, ah, he's, afraid to mess them up more. Please post results, when attained. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, Massachusetts Being snowed upon, heavily. > Peter is right on target. I have a Parsons De Luxe Brace which has > permaloid which has seen better days. I have always intended to do > something to smooth out the scratches. I got some motivation this past > Saturday. A dealer at the PATINA tool meet had a permaloid brace (not a > Parsons De Luxe, mind you) with spectacular permaloid and chrome. He was > asking $300. But the beauty of that unmolested Permaloid has inspired me to > get around to touching it up. > > I asked around to some of the chemist/polymer scientist types at work. > The idea is to start off at the highest grit that will smooth out the > scratches and dings on your plastic. Then increase grits as you would in > scary sharpening. Finish up with a polish. Some recommened DuPont red auto > polish, while others recommended the white grade. One guy recommended using > 3M micromesh instead of wet/dry sandpaper. If you are lucky and don't have > extensive scratching, you may go direct to polish. > > Regards, > Steve > ---- Start of Message 130774 (thread 50583) ---- From: "P J McBride" Date: 2004-03-17 14:50:25 Subject: Re: polishing lucite? GG's To polish *Perspex* watch glasses, and other plastics I have used wet and dry down to 4000 grit, then on the slow speed calico *mop* or *buffing wheel* at 1425 rpm, I use the white polishing compound White Dialux. Go gently and move the work around a bit, staying in one place even with the slow spinning mop might get it too hot. A galootish way might be to do it like a shoe shine, soft leather rubbed with White Dialux. Watch glasses may need a better polish than tool handles, so as Peter W says, 1000 grit will be far enough to go. Wrap the wet and dry around an appropriate shape wooden stick,or dowel matching the profile of the internal curves...try and avoid rubbing grooves into the work. Regards, Peter In Melbourne, Australia. To keep your sanity....use hand tools daily > So I have these "Shark-O-Lite handles that have rattled around in toolboxes too many years an need a good polishing up> and Peter answered: > Start with a grade of wet'n'dry paper that will remove the scratches you have, work down to say 800 or 1000 grit. Then polish with a liquid or cream metal polish such as "Brasso" or "Autosol", the white, gritty type of toothpaste will also work at a pinch.> ---- Start of Message 130776 (thread 50583) ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-03-16 22:15:21 Subject: Re: polishing lucite? Try an aviation supply store -- there are several online. They will have a kit for doing this. Removing scratches from aircraft windscreens is a common task. I have seen it done both with kits of graduated microscreens and with graduated powdered abrasives. If the canopy is real bad, they start with about 600 grit Silicon Carbide and work on down to 2000 grit before switching to the microscreen. There also is some sort of casting plastic for real deep gouges. Generally a liquid is used at the end of the process -- I suspect that it is some sort of very fine abrasive plus a wax/silicon/polymer . A good job leaves no detectible scratches at all in the plexiglass. Regards, John Lederer Oregon, Wisconsin Thomas Johnson wrote: > Hi Gang, > So I have these "Shark-O-Lite handles that have rattled around in > toolboxes too many years an need a good polishing up. Obviously, > machine polishing could overheat the surface quickly .... anyone have > a tried and true method? > > TIA > > Tom > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 130782 (thread 50583) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-16 23:04:19 Subject: Re: polishing lucite? If you know me at all you'll know I love fine wood. Always did, always will. What you may not know is that I also love plastic. Early plastic was a thing of great magic. Something people dreamed about for generations before it came along. They made fine jewelry out of the stuff at the very beginning! Eventually it has become so pervasive that everyone hates it and well they should. The new stuff is ugly. But that early stuff still has class. Bakelite, celluloid both translucent and wildly colored, cool stuff. Polished it takes on a glow that catches and reflects light very nice. Restoring it is a bit easier than several of the recipes given so far. Sanding out the defects doing as little damage to the design shape is the hard part. It has to be altered by the very process so what you're looking for is the least design change you can get away with and still get the most defects removed. Watch what you're taking off and where and try to keep everything even, is my point. 80 grit cuts pretty fast if you need it. Knock the dust off the paper and wipe it off the piece often as you go, to see where you're at. The scratches and dents will actually be shinier than your general scuffed surface. When you get it as good as likely, which means many times you're going to have to leave some of the deepest scratches because taking them all the way down would ruin the shape and you'll just have to be satisfied with something less than absolute perfection. What you end up with should be plenty though. It is for me. After 80 has done it's worst (if you have to use it), go to 120, then 240. When the surface is decent all over at 240 and the worst of the bad defects are gone, you're done sanding. Unless you really need it optically clear and even then 320 is enough for me. From there (cover your eyes, anyone who is oversensitive to a few electrons being sacrificed in a good cause) you buff it out. A cotton buff, loosely sewed is what you're after. Too hard and it'll dig in and cut. Too soft and it'll flop all over and never get you there. Turn the buff at not much more than 1000 rpm. Forget trying it with a bench grinder. That's 3 times too fast and you'll have all kinds of trouble. Old buffing heads (Millers Falls made millions of them) are plentiful and cheap. Any old 1/2hp bench motor will turn them fine. The biggest pulley you can put on these is about 2" so go with a 1 1/4" motor pulley or as close as you can to that with a regular 1725rpm motor. Fine or med aluminum oxide polish (I can't tell the difference) is what I use. In fact, set yourself up a decent buff and get a brick of polishing compound (mcmaster is the best deal I know of) and you'll find all manner of excuses to use it, I guarantee. You have to hold yourself back is closer to it. Doorknobs, silver, wait'll you see what happens to a copper teakettle! Sunglasses hardly covers it. Get the welding goggles 8^) Yee haw! I like polish. It's a light but firmly held touch for plastic.You do need to keep it moving and don't bear down too hard. I guess that's the same as light touch, huh? You need to think of an invisible line across the horizontal center of anything you're buffing. This is the horizon. Don't go above the horizon or it could catch and pull the work from your hands and toss it anyplace. Including back into your face! You turn it upside down to do what used to be the upper 1/2. The old orange colored stuff they put on screwdrivers is one of my favorites polished. Rich. Practice on junk first, of course. But you'll get it. Oh, Tom just gave me the tip of heating old screwdriver handles in hot water to slip them off and clean up the shaft to rid yourself of rust inside the handle. I'm trying it tomorrow!! yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130792 (thread 50583) ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-03-17 05:03:08 Subject: Re: polishing lucite? --- scott grandstaff wrote: > If you know me at all you'll know I love fine > wood. Always did, always > will. > What you may not know is that I also love plastic. > Early plastic was a > thing of great magic. One word of caution. If it's celluloid, you want to be very careful about heating it up through buffing. Celluloid can, indeed, be really beautiful, but it's also highly flammable and can even be explosive. I'm familiar with the material through early fountain pens which were all made of the stuff. (after they moved away from hard rubber in the late 20's) Many a pen has caught fire from careless restoration efforts. One of the first things you do is try to loosen the bond between the end of the pen (the part you hold) and the body. This bond is mostly held together with shellac. The traditional way of loosening it was with heat. Alcohol may damage celluloid so it was very carefully applied heat. If you aren't paying attention to what you do you may very well end up with a nice flaming torch in your hands. Celluloid is what they made those old exploding billiard balls out of. AAAndrew __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130897 (thread 50583) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-19 05:48:51 Subject: Re: polishing lucite? It was quite awhile ago now that I read about it but Popular Mechanics Magazine did an interesting bit on polishing plastics once when the military method was released and sold to the public. Turns out the bubble canopies often need repolishing for the pilots to see out of. You could probably search their site for it. > > So I have these "Shark-O-Lite handles that have rattled around in > toolboxes too many years an need a good polishing up> > > and Peter answered: > > > Start with a grade of wet'n'dry paper that will remove the > scratches you have, work down to say 800 or 1000 grit. > Then polish with a liquid or cream metal polish such as > "Brasso" or "Autosol", the white, gritty type of toothpaste > will also work at a pinch.> > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130914 (thread 50583) ---- From: "Arthur Bailey" Date: 2004-03-19 09:47:41 Subject: Re: polishing lucite? > > > So I have these "Shark-O-Lite handles that have rattled around in > > toolboxes too many years an need a good polishing up> > > I use Novus polishing products for plastic and bakelite radio cabinets. Works very well, and you can probably find it at your local plexiglass supply house. It comes in 3 grits, the heaviest two in a light paste form and the last is liquid. Art Bailey Queens, NY ++++ End of thread 50583 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50584 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130730 (thread 50584) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-16 10:48:01 Subject: The GIT's Good Morning, The family is out of town for a few days skiing with friends while the git's have break. So here I am at stuck at work (and it's snowing again) and feeling a little nostalgic. My youngest arrived five months ago and I'd like to introduce him to the group. Please meet Nicholas Ryan Peck http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=395 He's always happy and is all smiles, truly a joyful addition to the family. Here he is patiently waiting for dad to come up from the shop for a little playtime. http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=241 GIT #2 likes to tease him a little (think he'd better get used to it), but she is very gentle and caring for her little brother http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=247 Thanks for letting me share http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=247 Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 130732 (thread 50584) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-16 16:11:45 Subject: re: The GIT's Great pics of a couple great lookin GITs. Missin em, huh? Wait'll you get some GK GITs. They're even more fun cause you get to spoil em, then send em home. ---- Start of Message 130735 (thread 50584) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-16 09:20:10 Subject: re: The GIT's So if you have GK GITs, that must make you a GrandGaloot. And eventually, a GreatGrandGaloot. An imposing title indeed! Blake >>> "Jerry Palmer" 03/16/2004 9:11:45 AM >>> Great pics of a couple great lookin GITs. Missin em, huh? Wait'll you get some GK GITs. They're even more fun cause you get to spoil em, then send em home. ---- Start of Message 130746 (thread 50584) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-16 18:02:01 Subject: re: The GIT's Well, let's don't get down that road too far to quickly. I'm having trouble adjusting to that 1/2 century mark enough without gettin my grandbabies all grown up. Jerry ++++ End of thread 50584 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50585 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130743 (thread 50585) ---- From: wayne.a.anderson@a... Date: 2004-03-16 17:38:30 Subject: shoulder plane Well, been sitting home recovering from surgery lately, but I've managed to get in some shop time between naps. Here's a pic of one of the planes I have recently finished. It's got a 1-1/4" iron, and is filled with some pretty cocobolo. I "borrowed" the curved front from Brian Buckner (with his permission). The customer saw it in FWW and requested the front be like it. The wood really makes this one look nice I think. Here's the pic if you would like to see what I mean about the wood. http://members.gtw.net/~ratdaddy/shoulder6.jpg If you haven't seen the website I have started, check out: http:www.andersonplanes.com It needs work, but it is a start. Thanks for sharing the bandwidth. Wayne Anderson ---- Start of Message 130754 (thread 50585) ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-03-16 16:00:51 Subject: Re: shoulder plane WOW!! I think that sums it up. Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 11:38 AM Subject: [oldtools] shoulder plane > Well, been sitting home recovering from surgery lately, but I've managed to get in some shop time between naps. Here's a pic of one of the planes I have recently finished. It's got a 1-1/4" iron, and is filled with some pretty cocobolo. I "borrowed" the curved front from Brian Buckner (with his permission). The customer saw it in FWW and requested the front be like it. The wood really makes this one look nice I think. Here's the pic if you would like to see what I mean about the wood. > > http://members.gtw.net/~ratdaddy/shoulder6.jpg > > If you haven't seen the website I have started, check out: > > http:www.andersonplanes.com > > It needs work, but it is a start. Thanks for sharing the bandwidth. > Wayne Anderson > ---- Start of Message 130767 (thread 50585) ---- From: Steve and Dianne Noe Date: 2004-03-16 21:21:54 Subject: Re: shoulder plane What Frank Said!!! Holeee moleee that is pretty. Steve Noe, in Indianapolis dandsnoe@m... "I know no class of my fellowmen, however just, enlightened, and humane, which can be wisely and safely trusted absolutely with the liberties of any other class." --Fredrick Douglass ++++ End of thread 50585 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50586 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130744 (thread 50586) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-16 12:38:55 Subject: Stanley #1 I've never held a #1 in my hand. This picture helped to give me a little perspective on size. Whoa, dat's small http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=399 regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 130745 (thread 50586) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-16 10:47:35 Subject: Re: Stanley #1 I guess this is as good a time to ask as any . . .was the Stanley #1 actually intended for adults? >>> Jonathan Peck 03/16/2004 10:38:55 AM >>> I've never held a #1 in my hand. This picture helped to give me a little perspective on size. Whoa, dat's small http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=399 regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 130803 (thread 50586) ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 2004-03-17 10:29:56 Subject: Re: Stanley #1 Hi, Blake and All It's time for me to say this again, I guess. Regarding the usefulness of the Stanley No. 1, my great uncle was head machinist for the Duryea Motorwagon Co.100 years ago. When I inherited his machinist's chest, I was surprised to find three small planes in it, including the Stanley. Why did a practicing machinist need them? Reason: those early cars were mostly made of wood, "horseless carriages". The planes would have been useful for shaping small parts. He had bigger planes as well, but they were in a typical carpenter's tool box that HE inherited from his father. I'm pleased to have many of those as well. Trevor ---- Start of Message 130804 (thread 50586) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-17 08:40:23 Subject: Re: Stanley #1 I don't question the usefulness of a small plane. I question the usefulness of a small plane that has a tote designed like a full-size tote but miniturized to the point that it seemingly cannot be gripped like a full-size tote. But, having never seen, let alone tried to use, a #1, I may be missing something. In fact I probably AM missing something. I'm missing something, aren't I? Blake (who feels that he must be missing something.) >>> Trevor Robinson 03/17/2004 8:29:56 AM >>> Hi, Blake and All It's time for me to say this again, I guess. Regarding the usefulness of the Stanley No. 1, my great uncle was head machinist for the Duryea Motorwagon Co.100 years ago. When I inherited his machinist's chest, I was surprised to find three small planes in it, including the Stanley. Why did a practicing machinist need them? Reason: those early cars were mostly made of wood, "horseless carriages". The planes would have been useful for shaping small parts. He had bigger planes as well, but they were in a typical carpenter's tool box that HE inherited from his father. I'm pleased to have many of those as well. Trevor ---- Start of Message 130806 (thread 50586) ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-03-17 07:50:47 Subject: Re: Stanley #1 Blake Ashley wrote: > I don't question the usefulness of a small plane. I question the > usefulness of a small plane that has a tote designed like a full-size > tote but miniturized to the point that it seemingly cannot be gripped > like a full-size tote. But, having never seen, let alone tried to use, > a #1, I may be missing something. In fact I probably AM missing > something. I'm missing something, aren't I? > > Blake > (who feels that he must be missing something.) I think the typical grip is to have one's index finger (or possibly index + a couple more for a #1) not wrapped around said tote, but along the side, much like if you were making a play "gun" shape with your hand. I've never been bothered by it since I'm not a big person, but I know some guys have to do this with #3's and #4's since their hands won't fit comfortably around the totes using all fingers. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 50586 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50587 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130747 (thread 50587) ---- From: "Tony Zaffuto" Date: 2004-03-16 13:14:52 Subject: Jerry Palmer, GIT's Jerry, You should have done as me and my wife, start again! Our oldest two are soon to be 24 and 22, and the youngest just turned 4! I'm past the half century mark by a slash or two! Tony Z. ---- Start of Message 130811 (thread 50587) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-17 16:29:13 Subject: re: Jerry Palmer, GIT's Nah, Grand GITs are better. You get to spoil em, then send home with mom and dad. ++++ End of thread 50587 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50588 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130749 (thread 50588) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-16 10:30:35 Subject: FS -- Joiner Planes Looking for a good joiner? I've got 2, standard old tools terms for any name I recognize (#1) Sargent 424 Joiner Plane. This is the big gunboat. Ain't no foolin around. It's complete. This has a good rosewood tote with nothing but an old toolbox scrape on one side and a beautiful, early beaded knob. It's an old repaint so you'll have to scrape the sides but I don't see any unforgiveable pitting anyplace at all. The only real apology with this plane is that the top of the frog, where the lateral lever attaches was once broken off and brazed back on. It's functional and has held up long enough, so I'd trust it. The blade is full length and in good shape, but curiously unmarked . Pix if you want. $70 plus shipping. No "handling" fees. I'll let you handle your own tools 8^) (#2) Stanley #7C, about type 6 to 9 Someplace in there. Completely original except the blade, far as I can tell. Low knob, beautiful shapely tote with the heavier butt. In fact, I'd sorely tempted to rob that tote. It's the prettiest one I own. But I guess I'll let it go. Both wood parts have small toolbox dings but no chips or cracks. It's an old repaint but a very good job. Sides are clean. No apololgies on the sole or frog. Lever cap was painted though and needs stripped since it was supposed to be a plain one but it's in good shape. It's got a V logo blade in it about 1/2 length remaining below the hole. Plenty. $70 again, and a bargain I think. Both these planes are heavy so if you live in the west, for once, postage is on your side. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ++++ End of thread 50588 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50589 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130751 (thread 50589) ---- From: "Scott A. Owen at HI-Q" Date: 2004-03-16 13:18:48 Subject: Rust Hunting near Schwenksville, PA and amazing discoveries in my own shop Fellow Galoots, Does anybody in the Schwenksville, PA (near Philadelphia, Jeff) area have any recommended rust hunting locations they would be willing to divulge to a traveling galoot from the left coast? I will be in there April 21-28 to visit the in-laws. Many thanks in advance. Also some interesting discoveries in my own shop. One day my 4 year old female GIT wanted to drill some holes with my grandfather's Craftsman eggbeater. (I know it is not "worth" much, but it's in good shape with a partial sticker on the handle). As we were getting ready to drill she said, "What is this indented line on around the handle?" (translated from kid speak). Light bulb went on and I unscrewed the top to reveal a handful of bits that I did not know were there. I knew that many eggbeaters stored bits in the handle, but somehow had never thought that was the case with this drill. Another evening of playing with tools, I decided to try to clean up an old 24" 11 ppi saw I had picked up almost a year earlier. I started looking at it and some things did not add up. Brass Warranted Superior medallion, but it did not match the other three nickel plated screws. Older style rosewood handle with wheat carving. Hmmm. After much elbow grease with WD-40 and fine grit sandpaper on wood block, the etch comes up to reveal a Disston D-115 with the Victory Etch. Took it to the local saw sharpener and now have a nice cross cut saw. Maybe someone replaced the medallion for some unknown reason? A while back I inherited my grandfathers tools. Amongst them was a Type 20 #5C with blue japanning (paint?). I know, not very desirable. After fettling, it performs as well as any of my type 11-13 number 4's. Other than the stained hardwood handles (in great shape BTW) I believe this plane is every bit as good as the WWI era planes. The machining seems fine, the casting looks every bit as beefy, and interestingly the depth adjustment for is cast and nickel plated. Moral, not all type 20's are junk. Not much luck lately, just a beat up 20" D-8 with a green handle and a 6" SOHACO try square with a 5-5-31 pat. date. Take a look in your own shop, you just might surprise yourself. Cheers! Scott in San Diego, CA ---- Start of Message 130755 (thread 50589) ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-03-16 17:01:13 Subject: Re: Rust Hunting near Schwenksville, PA and amazing discoveries in my own shop Scott said: . One day my 4 year old > female GIT wanted to drill some holes with my grandfather's Craftsman > eggbeater. (I know it is not "worth" much, but it's in good shape with a > partial sticker on the handle). > > A while back I inherited my grandfathers tools. Amongst them was a Type > 20 #5C with blue japanning (paint?). I know, not very desirable. Rare or common, I think it is really wonderful that you have tools from your family. I have some of my Grandfather's tools: a set of chisels, low end panel saw, bits, hammer, Stanley 48, and some misc. Nothing "valuable" by market standards, but invaluable to me. I remember being in my Grandfather's workshop (He was a gristmill owner, farmer, and jack of all trades). I remember the smell of fresh cut wood, some of his tools, and most of all being with this wonderful old man. My kids are now young adults, and they have been in my shop many, many times. We have done lots of projects together. They are fledgling woodworkers (GITs) and love being involved with wood and tools. They are making a few things on their own now. I am sure that they will remember our good times in the shop always. But those old tools had another gift for us, and that is the opportunity to pass on our own oral history. It was the opportunity to pass on a bit of family heritage, but much more, the opportunity to talk about what is really important in life: The people we love, and the people that touch our lives I think the tools you describe here are very special, Scott,. I hope you are able to enjoy them with your GITs for many years. Chris Berger In snowy but warming West Lafayette, IN (Smack dab in the middle of the country, Jeff.) ---- Start of Message 130777 (thread 50589) ---- From: "M.Stadulis" Date: 2004-03-16 23:50:47 Subject: Re: Rust Hunting near Schwenksville, PA and amazing discoveries in my own shop Scott, Not really close, but go west on PA Turnpike to the Morgantown exit. Go south on the main road and turn right on 23 .....go about 200 yds and on your left is an anteek mall with a tool dealer in the rear. The place is called the Old Mill. Good selection. Regards, Michael Stadulis Gloucester County, New Jersey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott A. Owen at HI-Q" To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 4:18 PM Subject: [oldtools] Rust Hunting near Schwenksville, PA and amazing discoveries in my own shop > Fellow Galoots, > > Does anybody in the Schwenksville, PA (near Philadelphia, Jeff) area > have any recommended rust hunting locations they would be willing to > divulge to a traveling galoot from the left coast? I will be in there > April 21-28 to visit the in-laws. Many thanks in advance. > > Also some interesting discoveries in my own shop. One day my 4 year old > female GIT wanted to drill some holes with my grandfather's Craftsman > eggbeater. (I know it is not "worth" much, but it's in good shape with a > partial sticker on the handle). As we were getting ready to drill she > said, "What is this indented line on around the handle?" (translated > from kid speak). Light bulb went on and I unscrewed the top to reveal a > handful of bits that I did not know were there. I knew that many > eggbeaters stored bits in the handle, but somehow had never thought that > was the case with this drill. > > Another evening of playing with tools, I decided to try to clean up an > old 24" 11 ppi saw I had picked up almost a year earlier. I started > looking at it and some things did not add up. Brass Warranted Superior > medallion, but it did not match the other three nickel plated screws. > Older style rosewood handle with wheat carving. Hmmm. After much elbow > grease with WD-40 and fine grit sandpaper on wood block, the etch comes > up to reveal a Disston D-115 with the Victory Etch. Took it to the local > saw sharpener and now have a nice cross cut saw. Maybe someone replaced > the medallion for some unknown reason? > > A while back I inherited my grandfathers tools. Amongst them was a Type > 20 #5C with blue japanning (paint?). I know, not very desirable. After > fettling, it performs as well as any of my type 11-13 number 4's. Other > than the stained hardwood handles (in great shape BTW) I believe this > plane is every bit as good as the WWI era planes. The machining seems > fine, the casting looks every bit as beefy, and interestingly the depth > adjustment for is cast and nickel plated. Moral, not all type 20's are > junk. > > Not much luck lately, just a beat up 20" D-8 with a green handle and a > 6" SOHACO try square with a 5-5-31 pat. date. Take a look in your own > shop, you just might surprise yourself. > > Cheers! > > Scott in San Diego, CA > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 131376 (thread 50589) ---- From: "Scott A. Owen at HI-Q" Date: 2004-03-29 14:28:25 Subject: Re: Rust Hunting near Schwenksville, PA and amazing discoveries in my own shop Wanted to thank everyone who responded to my request. Sorry for the delay, work and all. Several people recommended the Perkiomenville Auction. My FIL is a regular there, so I will definitely be going to this. Hopefully he will clue me in to the proper etiquette for this particular auction. I would like to try to get to the Limerick Flea Market also. We usually go to the Zerns (Zurns?) flea market. I am also hoping to cruise some local garage sales, weather permitting. I don't know if we will make it much further a field than that. I hope to find something interesting (maybe and unbroken tote for my 1902 dates #3, the newer ones just wouldn't look right, or an early 8 or 10" Disston #4, hmmm, a 92 or 93 would be nice). Cur and Chris are definitely correct that those of us who are fortunate enough to have tools handed down in the family should feel very lucky. Just holding them makes me remember the way it felt to watch his hands glide around whatever project he was working on (from hand lettering a sign to fixing a fishing pole, playing classical piano). His hand movements had a certain smoothness to them that was hypnotic to watch. I would not have put much effort into my grandfather's Type 20 #5C if it had not been his. The zap tank fixed the rust that was right on the edge of getting bad (Granddaddy lived in Florida) and also knocked off about 40% of the lovely blue "japanning". I am a relatively recent slider down this slope, and the usual web resources had me convinced that a Type 20 wasn't worth the effort. From my previous post, this plane has a cast depth adjustment yoke that is nickel plated. The casting and machining seems to be as accurate and of comparable quality as my type 11's. If Type 20's are generally as bad as "they" say, then Granddad must have had a good eye when he picked out this one, because I believe that it will match up to any Bailey pattern # 5 out there. As far as recent rust hunt finds, how about a 3/4" Stanley #740 chisel, handle has 99% of the finish and looks like no one has every used a mallet on it, the blade seems full length with possibly original grind. I don't want to clean any of the patina off the blade because you can see the original price ($2.30) stamped on the blade in blue ink! Beep beep. Thanks again to the SGFH for letting me spew tool excitement. Scott in San Diego ---- Start of Message 131392 (thread 50589) ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-03-29 20:31:32 Subject: Re: Rust Hunting near Schwenksville, PA and amazing discoveries in my own shop Scott wrote...... > Several people recommended the Perkiomenville Auction. My FIL is a > regular there, so I will definitely be going to this. Hopefully he will > clue me in to the proper etiquette for this particular auction. ...." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - I used to go to "Perky" every week and have to chuckle about someone asking about the "Proper Etiquette" for this auction as it is one of the roughest auctions I have ever been too.Have seen several fights among the crowd including one where a Transvestite in a Red dress and with a beard got into it with two guys after he/she fell out of a truck and shouted at them "What the F*** are you looking at?" At This auction people crowd around 3 auctioneers as they sell at different tables full of junk.You pay cash as you buy the stuff and you don't have a chance to look at much before you bid because they keep the tables roped off or covered before hand because of rampart stealing.Once you get something you don't dare take your eyes off it because of thieves.I once had a 3 ft square forge hood disappear from where I put it less then 2 feet behind me as I bid on something else.Have had a few things stolen from the back of my truck as well. Try to get as close as you can to the table and the auctioneer so you can look good at what he holds up.This is not an auction for a shy violet! Used to be one consigner from New York that would bring down trunks of planes and other tools of which about 50% were damaged. I tried to hand them to the auctioneer so I could look at them and I still would get home to find that I bought cracked or busted junk . Several Auctioneers were pretty well known for getting bids out of the air too and can be just nasty.Once had an auctioneer kick over a big post drill I bought because five min. after I bought it I hadn't removed it and I came close to smacking him. There is a big Flea market at this auction as well and it starts well before dawn, by noon most people are packed up. I have bought great stuff at the flea market and to a lesser extent the auction. Do see more "Old" stuff at Perky then most other flea markets and auctions I go to.I stopped going because of how far it was to drive to ,[100 mi. one way] and because you have to get there by 5:30 or so and also seemed that prices in the flea market was getting into the "Antique" Range and out of the "Flea Market Junk" range as condition went down hill.....Have to say I do miss it though and might have to start going again ....Todd ---- Start of Message 131456 (thread 50589) ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-03-30 21:04:50 Subject: Re: Rust Hunting near Schwenksville, PA and amazing discoveries in my own shop > > Several people recommended the Perkiomenville Auction. > I used to go to "Perky" every week.... Hey...make sure you guys leave some tools behind in SE PA for the rest of us...okay? Bruce Love Pipersville, PA (who has thought about taking a day off to hit the auciton at the Perky sometime, but never really thought about the flea market there - it is only about 35 minutes from where I work and I suppose I could get up early on Monday sometimes and drive up there before work. Hummm....) ++++ End of thread 50589 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50590 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130752 (thread 50590) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-16 16:34:06 Subject: Re: Mint (was boxes out) Hello GG's The more I think about it, the more I'm not really sure what "mint" means. "Excellent", "almost mint" and "minty" have me scratching my head as well. And of course there's "crispy" and "bonerific". "Rare" seems self explanitory, but how can a Stanley #4 "older type" be rare? Sometimes I see "very nice" and I wonder if that's better than just plain "nice". "Vintage" with an exclamation point (Vintage!!) seems to be better than vintage without. "Early type" makes me think low knobs or pre-lateral and not SW which could be called "later type". "Pre-war" and "Antique" seem to mean something special also, especially if your selling "wood planers". I recognize "fine" but what is "VV fine" (very very)? "Primitive", yeah....that one conjurs up all kinds of imaginative things. This is all so creative. Are these terms interchangable? Like, could I say that I have an almost mint rare vintage antique wood planer...nice!! I found this plane and cleaned it up http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=254 I call it good+ even thought it has minimal wear, 90% to 100% finish, and is totally usable. It did have minor rust (no pitting) before I cleaned it and it has some dings and scratches. I repaired the tote, but I do have another tote from a type 11 parts plane that I could put on this plane. That tote is neither dinged or repaired, but I still wouldn't call this plane fine even if I replaced the repaired tote. So I think what I'm saying is that fine or new should be used only in cases where the tools meet "ALL" of the criteria above, and poetic license should not be used as it will create missunderstandings with knowlegable users and collectors. Where did terms like "mint, "almost mint", and "excellent" come from anyway? When buying oldtools on eb*y, I like to buy from dealers who tend to be very accurate when describing a tools condition, seemingly drawing more attention to a tools flaws than their attributes. Good pictures are also helpful. It seems VERY obvious to me, that some sellers take planes in Good to Good+ condition and clean them up and list them as excellent or mint condition. I think re-japanning, re-painting, sanding untill pitting is gone, and mixing parts should be listed in the item description instead of "DUH, I thought it was all original". In which case you are now holding a plane that would be categorized as Usable- No, Usable - Probably, or Usable - Yes by reputable sellers, instead of Usable - Totally, Collectable - fuhgetaboutit . How about Proffitable -Yes, Usable - Maybe as a selling point. FTJ's tool rating index: Category-New, Wear-None, Finish-100%, Usable-Totally, Repairs-None, Rust-None, Misc. +Orig. Pkg. Category-Fine, Wear-Minimal, Finish-90%-100%, Usable-Totally, Repairs-None, Rust-Trace Category-Good+, Wear-Normal, Finish-75%-90%, Usable-Yes, Repairs- None/Minor, Rust-Minor, Misc. Some dings and scratches Category - Good, Wear - Normal, Finish 50%-75%, Usable - Yes, Repairs - Minor, Rust - Minor, Misc. Small chips Category - Good - (minus), Wear - Normal, Finish - 30%-50%, Usable - Probably, Repairs - Minor, Rust - Minor to Moderate Category - Fair, Wear - Heavy, Finish - 30%, Usable - No, Repairs - Moderate to Major, Rust - Moderate to Major. Category - Poor, Wear - Heavy, Finish - N/A, Usable - No, Repairs - Major, Rust - Major. Regards Jonathan >>An interesting definition of "mint condition". ---- Start of Message 130756 (thread 50590) ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-03-16 17:33:44 Subject: Re: Mint (was boxes out) Jonathon said: > > This is all so creative. Are these terms interchangable? Like, could > I say that I have an almost mint rare vintage antique wood > planer...nice!! I think that your (longer and more detailed) observations about tool conditions and descriptions point up the value of having a standard classification of old tool conditions. We have (originally) Vern Ward, and Clarence Blanchard (the past 15?? years) at FTJ to thank for providing us with a workable standard. The problem, it seems to me, is that unless the person giving the description _tries_ to use the classification in an accurate manner, the terms (e.g. "Good", "Good plus", etc.) sound plausible to about anybody. But the words (category tiles), w/o the careful and honest comparison to the standards provided in the FTJ classification, are quite ambiguous. Without acknowledging FTJ as the copyright owner, and without subscribing to the detailed descriptions, it is easy to understand why and how two individuals would describe the same tool with very different titles (Good/Good plus/Fine/etc.) It seems to me that one relatively easy solution is to describe tools using the FTJ classification exclusively. To my knowledge, Clarence always gives permission to use the classification as long as the user acknowledges the copyright. (correct me if I am wrong Clarence). So, somebody who used and acknowledged the FTJ classification system would be pretty clear about the description of the tools. Saying that one was using FJ classification would eliminate a lot of ambiguity. Lacking the acknowledgement of the standard provided by FTJ would alert the buyer that the language used was arbitrary and would need detailed description. OK, just my $.02. But, as both buyer and seller I have been helped by the FTJ classification (used honestly). Chris Berger, In rainy/snowy West Lafayette, IN ---- Start of Message 130758 (thread 50590) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-03-16 14:46:15 Subject: Re: Mint (was boxes out) Hey Good observations Johnathan Ever shove a worm on a hook? Ok, that didn't work. How about we tie a feather on. Propellers? Wings to make it dive? Spots, glow in the dark, skink, mebbe some rubbery squirmy frog legs might do it. Hey, lemme see your pocket watch. 8^) Old catfish, he knows what he's waiting for though. Can't fool him that easy. Back to the worm and just wait. Disregard the superfluous fluff. Unless it's -real- creative and makes for interesting reading. All those terms like mint and such came from other collectibles before anyone collected old tools. Antiques, coins, stamps, all have particular lingo but basic description tags are pretty similar. I doubt anyone really pays much attention to them there either. Every person has their own particular idea of what each one of them means and the only time they ever make any sense is when dealing with the same person who you've gotten used to their words. I used to buy bottles from a guy who'd say, dug, extra nice, a lot. Dug meant he dug it out of privy pit. Could be cloudy and stained, could be shiny. If he dug it up, he called it dug. (doh! nearly every old bottle was dug up out of somewhere) Extra nice meant he liked it for some reason or other. Could be it's shape or color or reminded him of his honeymoon. The really cool thing was he'd draw each bottle with pen and ink. Including bubbles and stretched necks and irregularities really old mouth blown bottles always have to some degree. The old snail mail lists. I do miss some of them. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 130759 (thread 50590) ---- From: "Jon Endres, PE" Date: 2004-03-16 17:03:23 Subject: RE: Mint (was boxes out) > Hello GG's > I found this plane and cleaned it up > http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=254 > I call it good+ even thought it has minimal wear, 90% to 100% > finish, and is totally usable. It did have minor rust (no pitting) > before I cleaned it and it has some dings and scratches. I repaired > the tote, but I do have another tote from a type 11 parts plane that > I could put on this plane. That tote is neither dinged or repaired, > but I still wouldn't call this plane fine even if I replaced the > repaired tote. I dunno about whatcha call it, but it's a whole lot better looking than any of the "chunks-o'-rust" in my pitiful excuse for a shop. I have a type 19 #4 that is pretty nice and shiny and is unrestored, but everything else is pure crap. If it ain't rusty, it's broken, parts are missing, or it's not all original. Jon E ++++ End of thread 50590 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50591 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130753 (thread 50591) ---- From: David Dougherty Date: 2004-03-16 13:55:23 Subject: How do I quit this rag? The web interface appears to be down at the moment, but I would like to unsubscribe from this list. Is there an alternative method? David ===== -- David W. Dougherty, Maker and Proprietor DWD Violins and String Instrument Repair __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130766 (thread 50591) ---- From: Mike Duchaj Date: 2004-03-16 20:16:39 Subject: Re: How do I quit this rag? Gee, This guy is sure no Natalie. Mike David Dougherty wrote: > The web interface appears to be down at the moment, > but I would like to unsubscribe from this list. Is > there an alternative method? ---- Start of Message 130771 (thread 50591) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-16 19:34:36 Subject: Re: How do I quit this rag? Hey Mike--- I dunno, he called the porch a "rag", which has a bit of wrong way rubbing to it--maybe not up there with 'gay-ass list', but definitely against the grain...mostly though, it's the same voice that usually says "Pardon me, Miss Crabapple, our school day is nearly completed and you have not yet assigned homework." did this guy ever post? besides this, I mean--GAM --- Mike Duchaj wrote: > Gee, > > This guy is sure no Natalie. > > Mike > > David Dougherty wrote: > > > The web interface appears to be down at the moment, > > but I would like to unsubscribe from this list. Is > > there an alternative method? > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130775 (thread 50591) ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-03-16 22:12:24 Subject: Re: How do I quit this rag? Quit . . Quit . . . How can he quit when he hasn't paid his dues yet? Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "gary may" To: "oldtools" Cc: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 7:34 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] How do I quit this rag? > Hey Mike--- > I dunno, he called the porch a "rag", which has a bit of wrong way > rubbing to it--maybe not up there with 'gay-ass list', but definitely > against the grain...mostly though, it's the same voice that usually > says "Pardon me, Miss Crabapple, our school day is nearly completed > and you have not yet assigned homework." > did this guy ever post? besides this, I mean--GAM > --- Mike Duchaj wrote: > > Gee, > > > > This guy is sure no Natalie. > > > > Mike > > > > David Dougherty wrote: > > > > > The web interface appears to be down at the moment, > > > but I would like to unsubscribe from this list. Is > > > there an alternative method? > > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam > http://mail.yahoo.com > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 130783 (thread 50591) ---- From: "Eric Coyle " Date: 2004-03-17 06:25:23 Subject: re: How do I quit this rag? It's OK. I sent this fella an email to tell him he might leave, but he won't be able to quit. The inclination that led him here will lead him back eventually. Just for folks who might be lookin for the numerical justification for being here (on the list-from-hell) , methinks that for some years now, oldtools has been hovering about the 1k membership, and if you accept my hypothesis that there's at least 5 years of handtool experience before a person reaches the "oldtool" epiphany, why that's only 5 millenium of man-years of experience to draw on. While day-to day chatter may be bland or mundane at times, that's life- lots of repitition interspersed with bright spots. If a person had to actually pay "oldtool consultants" rates, say maybe at the exhorbitant rate of a penny an hour, this list would cost you easily 80 bucks a day, but as it's online 24 hrs/day, that should be at least 240 bucks a day, , or 87,600 bucks a year. So even the most frugal person can't begrudge the actual cost. Where does anyone get a deal like that. Maybe them cremona-tators have carved out a better deal elsewhere, but do they have blacksmiths, machinists, metallurgists, instrument makers, carpenters, ebenistes, etc etc on call at the "other place" Heck if even 1% of this listserves chatter serves any utiilitarian purpose, whatever that may be , it'w worth 876 bucks, ie the cost of the internet connection, which, being tax deductable to a businessperson, equiates to at least 1k$ per year in before tax dollars., Penny an hour is a deal. I know consultants that charge 600$/8 hr day. That is over seven thousand times that penny an hour that my calculations are based on.. Dear brethern, don't get annoyed for the "penny an hour" rate, it is just to graphically underestimate and thus illustrate the real value of all of your various expertises. It is indeed priceless, Then I suggested digest mode to david, to reduce the e-clutter. and as I said earlier, he may leave, but he won't be able to quit. Eric in Cowtown ---- Start of Message 130794 (thread 50591) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-17 13:09:37 Subject: re: How do I quit this rag? Man Eric, I was reading all what you wrote and was thinkin, man this is some really great BS. Then I get to the bottom and find out that it really is, bein you're from "Cowtown". Hey, there's all sorts of ways to alleviate the e-mail clutter. What gets me down is when I can't get in here to see what's happen'n. ---- Start of Message 130799 (thread 50591) ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-03-17 08:20:14 Subject: Re: How do I quit this rag? Eric, Don't be too sure about that. As far as I know, Natalie still hasn't returned. Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- Cowtown Eric said: > > Then I suggested digest mode to david, to reduce the e-clutter. > and as I said earlier, he may leave, but he won't be able to quit. > > Eric > in Cowtown ---- Start of Message 130801 (thread 50591) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-17 10:13:24 Subject: Re: How do I quit this rag? >Eric, > >Don't be too sure about that. As far as I know, Natalie still >hasn't returned. Ok, so ...your asking yourself "what do Natalie and the woodchuck have to do with oldtools"...heh..heh..heh Hmmmm.... http://archive.oldtools.org./archive_get.phtml?message_id=76849 and a f/u as to Natalie's condition http://archive.oldtools.org./archive_get.phtml?message_id=76956 enjoy Jonathan NYC ++++ End of thread 50591 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50592 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130757 (thread 50592) ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-03-16 14:41:29 Subject: Double bevel plane believer now I've a rough Stanley handyman #4 I've been slowing bring back to life. Lately I've been working with purpleheart on this project: http://arwomack01.home.att.net/images/butterfly_box.jpg Whenever I hit it with my Stanleys, most of the surface would be good, but someplace I would hit a grain reversal and TEAR OUT. To improve my lot I've bought a 60 1/2 stanley and stuck a hock iron in it, it helps, but there is always a small spot that still gets me. So when I noticed the blade on my No 4 wasn't sharp I took it in and put a new hone to it, and just on a lark stuck the tail end into my jig and made a small back bevel. It was one sharp plane out of there, took it out and cleaned up the same board the plane had earlier torn all up. Only some small spots remained that I would have to plane deeper for. I would vote for it being harder to push, but I just got a body rocking motion going and it was easy enough. I'm a believer. Now onto a planning question: As you get flatter and smoother, is it often necessary to advance the blade a tiny bit more to keep going, or should a plane continue to cut on most passes without this? -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ---- Start of Message 130840 (thread 50592) ---- From: "Jim Cook" Date: 2004-03-17 17:57:23 Subject: RE: Double bevel plane believer now Nice project, Alan. I hope you'll post some pic of the completion! Jim Cook Newton, MA > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Womack [mailto:arwbackup@w...] > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 5:41 PM > To: oldtools > Subject: [oldtools] Double bevel plane believer now > > > I've a rough Stanley handyman #4 I've been slowing bring back to > life. Lately > I've been working with purpleheart on this project: > > http://arwomack01.home.att.net/images/butterfly_box.jpg > > ++++ End of thread 50592 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50593 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130760 (thread 50593) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-16 18:40:16 Subject: edge vs. flat Alan Womack asked: >As you get flatter and smoother, is it often necessary to advance the >blade a tiny bit more to keep going, or should a plane continue to cut >on most passes without this? Just a curiosity, but why is it necessary to advance a blade more to take a shaving when working on flat surfaces then when planing edges? Regards Jonathan Posting from NYC and somtimes Long Island ---- Start of Message 130761 (thread 50593) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-16 16:54:39 Subject: Re: edge vs. flat On Tuesday, March 16, 2004, at 03:40 PM, Jonathan Peck wrote: > Alan Womack asked: >> As you get flatter and smoother, is it often necessary to advance the >> blade a tiny bit more to keep going, or should a plane continue to >> cut on most passes without this? > > Just a curiosity, but why is it necessary to advance a blade more to > take a shaving when working on flat surfaces then when planing edges? > I have also noticed this, and I suspect that it must have to do with the sharp edge losing some of its sharpness. I would welcome another explanation. I only notice this on very hard woods. I will be planing along and notice that I need to advance the blade a tiny bit to keep on planing. The second time I notice it, I have to stop and re-hone the edge. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 130765 (thread 50593) ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-03-16 18:06:06 Subject: re: edge vs. flat >> I only notice this on very hard woods. I will be planing along and=20 >> notice that I need to advance the blade a tiny bit to keep on planing.=20 >> The second time I notice it, I have to stop and re-hone the edge. I've been working with purpleheart which is about 160% harder than oak. = Following this line of thought I would be pulling the blade out about every 5 = minutes. Are the stanley blades that poor? Especially the handyman era? Alan Epson Inkjet Printer FAQ: http://welcome.to/epson-inkjet ---- Start of Message 130784 (thread 50593) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-03-17 07:46:18 Subject: RE: edge vs. flat : -----Original Message----- : From: Jonathan Peck [mailto:jpeck@m...] : Sent: 16 March 2004 23:40 : To: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] edge vs. flat : : : Alan Womack asked: : >As you get flatter and smoother, is it often necessary to : advance the blade a : >tiny bit more to keep going, or should a plane continue to : cut on most passes : >without this? : : Just a curiosity, but why is it necessary to advance a blade : more to take a shaving : when working on flat surfaces then when planing edges? Because although it still cuts, the blade has worn a little? A dull cutter will work better on a narrow edge than on the wider surface when the lateral margins limit the action of the plane. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ++++ End of thread 50593 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50594 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130769 (thread 50594) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-16 22:05:28 Subject: H2 Oldtools sighting on prime time T.V. OK...with happy jack by The Who in the backgound, this kid reads a flyer, whick says "RACE First One Down Wins". With Disston saw w/four sawnuts, old hammer, old rasp, scraper and (auger bits/reamers?) he builds a box car resembling the new Hummer H2 and instead of following the course, he hangs a left and heads off-road winning the race ++++ End of thread 50594 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50595 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130770 (thread 50595) ---- From: "Croxton Gordon" Date: 2004-03-16 22:32:27 Subject: Shepherd Plane Class at Conover's Gentle Galoots, Executive summary: I had the privilege of spending the weekend at Ernie Conover's (Ohio USA, Jeff), making an infill smoother with the Shepherd Tool guys. If I can make one of these things, anybody can. Text and shill alert: Ben and Doug are gregarious, interesting, talented guys, and live for planes: to talk about them, study them, use them, make them, and teach others how to make them. Eleven of us were at Conover Workshops, a first-class facility, last weekend, making infills. Two guys made stuffed shoulder planes, and the rest of us made parallel-sided, overstuffed, dovetailed-bodied, open-toted smoothers modeled after a Spiers (no Norris-style adjusters on these planes). Ben and Doug began the first morning with a history of infills and a general discussion of planes and what is important for a good plane. Their enthusiasm is infectious. You can go to their website for the construction details, and a very good description of the process. The kits have the parts cut and shaped, but the dovetails require filing and fitting, and then peening with a big @#$%* hammer, around a spacer block. The cocobolo stuffing needs some shaping and fitting.The excess metal from the dovetails and rivets required a lot of sanding or filing. I made every mistake possible, including filing a set of dovetails backwards, but the mild steel was very forgiving, especially under the blows of an even bigger hammer. Flattening the bed and filing the mouth was a little tense, but exciting when everything finally fit well. I repeat that anybody can do this and make a thing of beauty and utility. This isn't Wayne Anderson level, of course, but it's pretty darn good, and better than anything else in my shop. Host Ernie made one of Shepherd's first kits, and during his opening remarks said that his Shepherd smoother is his *go to* plane: the one he reaches for when he needs his best smoother. He made his plane without killing any electrons, by the way. Back to the shop. Cheers, Croxton On Virginia's Eastern Shore ++++ End of thread 50595 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50596 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130772 (thread 50596) ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-03-16 19:42:09 Subject: Tool ID questions Finished jointing and glueing up my shelf tonight and took the time to sweep up a little and pulled off of my shelf a few tools I've not really looked at very closely before (I'm sure I'm the only one who has tools they aren't intimately familiar with and use every day, right? yeah) So, I thought I'd ask about a couple and see if I can get any info on the makers. #1 Drawknife: Not sure how you measure them, it's 15" across the top, 10 1/4" blade. The blade is stamped: JOSIAH FOWLER CO LTD ST ??OU (could be St. Louis, but there's a biggish gap where the L should be) There's also another stamp to the left and a little down, in other words out of line with, the Josiah Fowler text. It is "F/" #2 Wood plane, 1/4" round. (leaves a round shape, that's a round, right?) Not sure it it's an owner's mark or a maker, but it's where the maker's mark shoudl be. It says: J. MILLER 50 GRAINGER ST. owner's mark of T. Simpson, back of the plane is stamped "4" Can anyone help? Thanks! AAAndrew Curious in Durham, North Carolina. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130785 (thread 50596) ---- From: "A Frampton" Date: 2004-03-17 10:25:18 Subject: RE: Tool ID questions Andrew rediscovers a couple of tools in his workshop (and haven't we all?) and asks for some info on: >Wood plane, 1/4" round. (leaves a round shape, that's >a round, right?) Not sure it it's an owner's mark or a >maker, but it's where the maker's mark shoudl be. It >says: >J. MILLER >50 GRAINGER ST. >owner's mark of T. Simpson, back of the plane is >stamped "4" Leaping to the bookshelf, I whipped out "British Planemakers", because that sounded familiar. Lo, the hunch paid off, or at least I think so: John Miller is listed as having been at, amongst other places, *56* Grainger St, Newcastle-Upon-Tyne (up in the north east of England, Paddy) between 1841 - 1851 or thereabouts. Described as a Planemaker and Ironmonger in 1847. Planes listed as uncommon - not found regularly, but not rare. Strikes me as the likely culprit; the different number being explained in any number of ways. Cheers, Alf One again blessing her copy of BPMs in Cornwall, UK. _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger ---- Start of Message 130787 (thread 50596) ---- From: "Peter Marquis-Kyle" Date: 2004-03-17 21:36:15 Subject: Re: Tool ID questions Andrew wrote: > Wood plane, 1/4" round. (leaves a round shape, that's > a round, right?) No, it's called a hollow. Oddly, 'hollow' and 'round' planes are named after their own shape, not after the shape they make... ...unlike beads, ogees, ovolos, and other moulding planes, which are named after the profiles they produce. Peter Marquis-Kyle ---- Start of Message 130793 (thread 50596) ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-03-17 05:11:22 Subject: Re: Tool ID questions Thanks, Peter. For some reason I'm always getting confused and assuming what I think is right is wrong, but then I'm usually right, but say I'm wrong about being right, but... Oh, h*ll. I'm just wrong. But I think I'll remember it now. I hope I'm not wrong. AAAndrew Dazed and confused on St. Paddy's day in Durham, North Carolina. --- Peter Marquis-Kyle wrote: > Andrew wrote: > > Wood plane, 1/4" round. (leaves a round shape, > that's > > a round, right?) > > No, it's called a hollow. > > Oddly, 'hollow' and 'round' planes are named after > their > own shape, not after the shape they make... > > ...unlike beads, ogees, ovolos, and other moulding > planes, > which are named after the profiles they produce. > > Peter Marquis-Kyle > > Archive: > http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web > interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130800 (thread 50596) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-17 10:02:37 Subject: Re: Tool ID questions Hi Andrew & All, Andrew asks about a Josiah Fowler drawknife. The Josiah Fowler Co. worked in St. John, New Brunswick, from ca. 1880 to 1920. He made axes, chisels, drawknives, hammers, picks, carriage springs, axles, etc. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130844 (thread 50596) ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-03-17 15:13:14 Subject: Re: Tool ID questions Thanks, Bob. St. John fits a whole lot better than St. Louis. I bought the drawknife in Michigan, which is north of Canada. :-) AAAndrew --- Bob Nelson wrote: > Hi Andrew & All, > > Andrew asks about a Josiah Fowler drawknife. The > Josiah Fowler Co. > worked in St. John, New Brunswick, from ca. 1880 to > 1920. He made axes, > chisels, drawknives, hammers, picks, carriage > springs, axles, etc. > > Best Wishes, > Bob > > > Archive: > http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web > interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 50596 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50597 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130773 (thread 50597) ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-03-16 21:42:00 Subject: Tool ID? saw file and marking gauge Greetings GG's Steve Johnson has graciously agreed to host pics of a couple of tools that I've puzzled over. Anyone seen a saw file handle like this? (page 2) what is the arm supposed to do? the serrated teeth on top of the ferrule??? or a marking gauge like this? two-way - curved or straight edges? Thanks for any ideas Tom ++++ End of thread 50597 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50598 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130786 (thread 50598) ---- From: Mark Marsay Date: 2004-03-17 10:26:51 Subject: Wanted to buy, trade, beg or borrow I just received through my postbox a Stanley 26 transitional that I forgot about buying. However, it is missing the front knob, so if any kindly galoot has a spare, or is willing to make a profile drawing so I can turn one (All transitional I get are users - I modify blades to fit so I can plane flitches in antiques without damaging the old surface) please contact me off list and we can work something out :-) An aside on this plane, as I haven't yet picked up any of the definitive stanley guides - the logo impressed into the toe of the plane is Stanley Rule and Level Co., New Britain, Conn as three concentric semicircles of text over an eagle, with the 26 stamped below. Any hints as to age? Regards, Mark Marsay, Restorer, Tool and Box dealer. Check http://mysite.freeserve.com/mc_antiques/index.html for antique tool and boxes. ++++ End of thread 50598 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50599 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130788 (thread 50599) ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-03-17 06:04:28 Subject: Fwd: Re: [oldtools] Electrolytic Rust Removal Q >Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 05:46:54 -0600 >To: "Michael D. Sullivan" >From: "John R. Wilson" >Subject: Re: [oldtools] Electrolytic Rust Removal Q >Cc: >Bcc: >X-Attachments: > >Michael- >The Scorched Earth Party May not be a credible source for home >health issues as they seem to be rather apocalyptic and violent >toward others in their approach to life. > > >>On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:18:55 -0500, Nichael Cramer wrote: >>Before you rush to judgment, however, check out the other side of the >story, at . > >The danger of this information culture we live in is that >information takes many forms, some truthful and some not so >truthful. Emotion easily clouds facts and causes people to think >with their brain stems rather than their frontal lobes. Look to the >real science for health related information. ++++ End of thread 50599 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50600 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130789 (thread 50600) ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-03-17 07:12:28 Subject: bronze carriage bolts wtb Friends, I need to locate a good source of bronze carriage bolts, 1/4 20, for my latest invention and also wing nuts. Actually I know of several sources but I don't like the prices. That is actually my question who has the best prices? The best I have found so far is Jamestown Distributors who sell the imported rolled thread bolts. Actually brass bolts would be fine as my project doesn't support human life but I don't think brass carriage bolts are made. Just as bronze wing nuts don't seem to exist and I will be accepting brass. Unless someone can point me to a source. Thanks for the help. Ken ---- Start of Message 130815 (thread 50600) ---- From: Dave Crawford Date: 2004-03-17 08:55:18 Subject: Re: bronze carriage bolts wtb McMaster Carr has 1/4-20 bronze carriage bolts 1-1/2, 2, 2-1/2, and 3 inches. Range in price from .90 to 1.80 each in packages. I couldn't find bronze wing nuts. -- Dave Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. Orange County, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dbcraw/Ken Pendergrass wrote: > Friends, > I need to locate a good source of bronze carriage bolts, 1/4 20, for my > latest invention and also wing nuts. Actually I know of several sources > but I don't like the prices. That is actually my question who has the > best prices? The best I have found so far is Jamestown Distributors who > sell the imported rolled thread bolts. Actually brass bolts would be > fine as my project doesn't support human life but I don't think brass > carriage bolts are made. Just as bronze wing nuts don't seem to exist > and I will be accepting brass. Unless someone can point me to a source. > Thanks for the help. > Ken > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 130839 (thread 50600) ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-03-17 17:37:58 Subject: Re: bronze carriage bolts wtb Dave Crawford wrote: > McMaster Carr has 1/4-20 bronze carriage bolts 1-1/2, 2, 2-1/2, and 3 > inches. Range in price from .90 to 1.80 each in packages. > I couldn't find bronze wing nuts. ---- Start of Message 130843 (thread 50600) ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-03-17 18:13:14 Subject: Re: bronze carriage bolts wtb On Wednesday, March 17, 2004, at 07:12 AM, Ken Pendergrass wrote: > I need to locate a good source of bronze carriage bolts, 1/4 20, Go to jamestowndistributors.com They have everything that is boat related - brass, bronze and SS (stainless steel, not scary sharp, which owuld have been SStm). They will ship any quantity including 1. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 130866 (thread 50600) ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 2004-03-17 23:26:58 Subject: Re: bronze carriage bolts wtb At 07:12 AM 3/17/2004 -0500, Ken Pendergrass wrote: >I need to locate a good source of bronze carriage bolts, 1/4 20, for my >latest invention and also wing nuts. Have you tried Stadium Hardware? Online there's an outfit called boltdepot.com that carries silicon bronze carriage bolts. ++++ End of thread 50600 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50601 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130795 (thread 50601) ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-03-17 07:21:10 Subject: This time WITH the pic Geez,..... I must be suffering from accelerated seniormomentitis. I asked about a saw file holder and a marking gauge... Steve Johnson graciously offered to host pics, and twice not I failed to provide the URL. I haven't got time to think up a GOOD excuse, so I'll just polish the spitoon a bit and post the URL (finally) Ideas? http://www.finetools.com/moderns.aspx I think I'll go for the caffiene fix just now. Cheers Tom ---- Start of Message 130807 (thread 50601) ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-03-17 09:57:32 Subject: Re: This time WITH the pic [Tom Johnson asks about an unusual marking gage he has found] These "fish-tail" marking gages are scarce, but not *too* rare. They are designed to reference either curved or straight edges by reversing the head. I think they were mostly aimed at patternmakers, and in many cases may have been recasts made by the patternmakers themselves. I have seen several variants of these: - The one like you have, with the "S"-shaped casting underneath and the narrow bar. I don't know why I think so, but I've always thought these were British. - There's another like yours, only with a plainer casting and fatter bar. You will often find these marked "patent applied for", but I have never found any patent papers for these. - Goodell-Pratt made some very nice gages in this style, with the metal bar and pizza-wheel cutter common to the G-P gages. There were plain and micro-adjust versions of this tool, and both are really sweet tools to use. - The rarest of this style is a small piece (about 4" long) with a metal bar and Starrett-style scribing point. These were made by Union and Stearns, and directly marketed as patternmakers tools. -- Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL "He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; he who dares not is a slave" - Wm. Drummond ++++ End of thread 50601 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50602 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130796 (thread 50602) ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-03-17 13:35:49 Subject: Smelting - was 'Router' Coming late to this thread, courtesy of a ghastly gastric something you don't want details of . . >>rochotte@b... writes: >>I have a small furnace that I fire with coal, coke and sometimes >>charcoal. It gets hot enough to melt cast iron; I need to watch the >>fire when using a cast iron pot, I melted a hole in one sometime ago >>when heating aluminum. and Larry questioned . . >Excellent router! But I have to question if your furnace is hot enough to >melt cast iron. If you're using something along the lines of the Gingery >furnace or "flowerpot crucible" it won't get hot enough to melt iron. It will, IIRC the melting point is around 1700 degrees in old money (fahrenheit's that would be) and a charcoal powered funrace is plenty hot enough, though you need to ensure some wind through it. - Why - we cut down all the trees in Shropshire to make the charcoal to make the iron in Ironbridge (World Heritage site which also houses a wunnerful green woodworking centre, Paddy) After we used all the trees left over from cutting all the forests for ship building, we invented coke and discovered you could make bigger furnaces, more noxious fumes, and better iron. Then Mr Bessemer came along and invented Sheffield. . . (Hmm, maybe the last part shows I'm still a bit light headed, but you get the idea. . ) Richard Wilson Back at the grind in Northants, UK ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ++++ End of thread 50602 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50603 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130802 (thread 50603) ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-03-17 07:25:41 Subject: advancing the blade to keep planning Ok, a couple posts saying the blade must be dull if you need to advance it to = keep planning. So, how much should one be able to plane before the blade needs to be sharpened = in a very hard wood? Are we talking 100 strokes, 200 strokes? 5 minutes of = surface planning? My particular piece of purpleheart is about 12" lond and 3" = wide. I made my passes slow, say 5-6 seconds each. I would suppose I planned = for 2-3 minutes before most all the tear out was gone and I found it necessary = to advance the cutter and smidgeon of a turn. How long should a stock stanley blade last? Alan ---- Start of Message 130809 (thread 50603) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-17 11:23:44 Subject: Re: advancing the blade to keep planning > Ok, a couple posts saying the blade must be dull if you need to > advance it to keep planning. > > So, how much should one be able to plane before the blade needs > to be sharpened in a very hard wood? Are we talking 100 strokes, Shouldn't this depend on how it was sharpened, what its bedding angle is, etc.? We could make the blades sharper by using a small angle. We don't because if the edge is too thin it will wear too quickly, right? Aren't planes designed for very hard woods bedded at a greater angle? Good question, though. Hopefully we'll see some good answers. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130810 (thread 50603) ---- From: "Steve Knight" Date: 2004-03-17 08:25:27 Subject: RE: advancing the blade to keep planning Ok, a couple posts saying the blade must be dull if you need to advance it to keep planning. So, how much should one be able to plane before the blade needs to be sharpened in a very hard wood? Are we talking 100 strokes, 200 strokes? 5 minutes of surface planning? My particular piece of purpleheart is about 12" lond and 3" wide. I made my passes slow, say 5-6 seconds each. I would suppose I planned for 2-3 minutes before most all the tear out was gone and I found it necessary to advance the cutter and smidgeon of a turn. Well this is a hard question to answer as it depends on many factors. Myself I have never had to advance the blade when it gets dull I just push harder. But that could depend on the wood and other factors like the angle of the blade. But figuring out how long a blade will go is pretty much impossible without trying it on the wood you want to know. It depends on too many things. Blade material the angle the blade is bedded at (the higher it is the faster it will dull) the wood your planning the thickness of the cut and how much tearout you have. Purpleheart is pretty abrasive so you won't get huge amounts of life out of a regular blade. ---- Start of Message 130812 (thread 50603) ---- From: "Maddex, Peter" Date: 2004-03-17 16:32:54 Subject: RE: advancing the blade to keep planning Hi, Their must be some slack in the adjustment mechanism so I blade will get pushed back a small way, maybe enough to need advancing just to take all the backlash out. I suppose on a hardwood this will be more noticeable then a softwood as the forces will be higher. pete Peter Michael Maddex Mad Bad and Dangerous to Know Communications & IT Services The Nottingham Trent University Ext 2765 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Alan Womack [mailto:arwbackup@w...]=20 Sent: 17 March 2004 15:26 To: oldtools Subject: [oldtools] advancing the blade to keep planning Ok, a couple posts saying the blade must be dull if you need to advance it to keep planning. So, how much should one be able to plane before the blade needs to be sharpened in a very hard wood? Are we talking 100 strokes, 200 strokes? 5 minutes of surface planning? My particular piece of purpleheart is about 12" lond and 3" wide. I made my passes slow, say 5-6 seconds each. I would suppose I planned for 2-3 minutes before most all the tear out was gone and I found it necessary to advance the cutter and smidgeon of a turn. How long should a stock stanley blade last? Alan ---- Start of Message 130814 (thread 50603) ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-03-17 16:51:35 Subject: Re: advancing the blade to keep planning Blade life Alan Womack applied the match with >So, how much should one be able to plane before the blade needs to be >sharpened in a very hard wood=3F Are we talking 100 strokes, 200 strokes=3F= And the answer came quickly back 'we don't know - too many variables' There are probably many deeply scientific studies concerning how long a cutting edge lasts, and how it degrades, for the subject has been of interest since the first blade was discovered hidden in a piece of flint. For our purposes though, it may be better to consider the question as 'how many linear feet of full width cutting in xxxx timber taking a shaving of xxx mm (inches) thickness and using no more than xxx kg (lbs) pressure. Timber is variable though - even from the same tree or board, so perhaps a homogenous substance like pl*stic would be a more rigorous test. By now, we're so far away from woodworking that the old adage about sharpening as often as necessary is simpler to understand, All the verbiage we've spouted on the list to date concerning trade off of hardness vs toughness vs time to sharpen and time between sharpenings needs adding to the discussion of bevel and bedding angles, and the relative hardness and abrasive quality of the wood is so neatly summed up by such an innocent question. . . . . Once again though, the difference is apparent between us 'gentlemen woodworkers' who use a wide variety of timber and technique, and the workers of old, who spent a lifetime using a single timber, making the same old product repeatedly. By 'experience' they would arrive at the best angles, and use a blade of hardness to match their timber - be it old growth pine or old growth mahogany or walnut. So much to learn by experience, and no time to do it. Richard Wilson Who may be trying to duck out of giving a clear answer. . . . ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 130822 (thread 50603) ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-03-17 10:52:13 Subject: re: advancing the blade to keep planning I cry bunk on too many variables. When you are smoothing a very hard wood with a smoothing plane and therefore you have a very small mouth, are you pulling the original stanley blades to sharpen them in 5 minutes? Or can you do a whole table top? Or the gist, is how often are you touching up the edge when planning? I'm going to go see if I can get a flat tip for my dial indicator and I will check for blade creep, and I will remove the blade next time I think I need to advance and check it with my arm hairs! -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ---- Start of Message 130824 (thread 50603) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-17 11:13:56 Subject: re: advancing the blade to keep planning Hi guys: My own experience with smoothing 'pretty hard' woods like white oak and OG fir lead me to believe that 100 strokes is a lot. I don't have any experience with purpleheart, but by reputation I'd say less than one hundred smoothing strokes per honing, maybe a lot less---I'd love to see a side by side test on this, with original Stanleys and Ohios up against the designer blades. Note to Alan---IMHO, the kind of sharpness and blade position variables you're talking about are outside the ken of a dial indicator, and way past the armhair test. who's got the lab? best to all GGs, and Natalie; GAM in seattle --- Alan Womack wrote: I cry bunk on too many variables. SNIP I'm going to go see if I can get a flat tip for my dial indicator > and I will check for blade creep, and I will remove the blade next time I think I need to advance and check it with my arm hairs! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130825 (thread 50603) ---- From: scottq@c... (Scott Quesnelle) Date: 2004-03-18 02:24:59 Subject: Re: advancing the blade to keep planning On Wed, Mar 17, 2004 at 11:13:56AM -0800, gary may wrote: > Hi guys: > My own experience with smoothing 'pretty hard' woods like white oak > and OG fir lead me to believe that 100 strokes is a lot. I don't have > any experience with purpleheart, but by reputation I'd say less than > one hundred smoothing strokes per honing, maybe a lot less---I'd love > to see a side by side test on this, with original Stanleys and Ohios > up against the designer blades. This has been done, take a look at Brent Beach's excellent site. It will have you lusting for an Intel QX3 to play with. http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/overview.html Regards, Scott Quesnelle Guelph, Ontario Where it snowed yesterday but is melting today.. Hopefully spring will arrive soon. ---- Start of Message 130836 (thread 50603) ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-03-17 17:23:42 Subject: Re: advancing the blade to keep planning Alan, I would agree with that statement. How much planing or how many strokes depends. The key is to not think of it the way your thinking of it. Don't expect a honing to last a certain amount of time or strokes or square feet learn to be sensitive to what is going on and learn to tell when the iron is dull. The iron is doubtless quite dull long before you are feeling need to advance it. Honing is like voting do it early and often. Ken Alan Womack wrote: >Ok, a couple posts saying the blade must be dull if you need to advance >it to keep planning. > >So, how much should one be able to plane before the blade needs to be >sharpened in a very hard wood? Are we talking 100 strokes, 200 strokes? >5 minutes of surface planning? My particular piece of purpleheart is >about 12" lond and 3" wide. I made my passes slow, say 5-6 seconds >each. I would suppose I planned for 2-3 minutes before most all the >tear out was gone and I found it necessary to advance the cutter and >smidgeon of a turn. > >How long should a stock stanley blade last? > >Alan > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > ---- Start of Message 130837 (thread 50603) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-17 17:30:02 Subject: re: advancing the blade to keep planning >When you are smoothing a very hard wood with a smoothing plane and >therefore you have a very small mouth, are you pulling the original >stanley blades to sharpen them in 5 minutes? I hate to throw a match in the tinderbox, but I think A2 (tool steel) has a leg up over 01 (carbon steel) as regards to holding an edge longer (IMHO). Grab that old crow bar, pry open those wallets and test out a Lie- Nielsen smoothing plane with their A-2 iron...nice!!! I highly recommend giving their cap iron's a whirl as well. (NAJASC*) http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=324 Regards Jonathan *no affiliation just a satisfied customer ---- Start of Message 130853 (thread 50603) ---- From: "Steve Knight" Date: 2004-03-17 18:51:02 Subject: RE: advancing the blade to keep planning I hate to throw a match in the tinderbox, but I think A2 (tool steel) has a leg up over 01 (carbon steel) as regards to holding an edge longer (IMHO). Yes it does though is it a big difference? But then you have a good Japanese steel that's even better. It is usually a water hardened steel. ---- Start of Message 130855 (thread 50603) ---- From: "Steve Knight" Date: 2004-03-17 18:52:15 Subject: RE: advancing the blade to keep planning My own experience with smoothing 'pretty hard' woods like white oak and OG fir lead me to believe that 100 strokes is a lot. I don't have any experience with purpleheart, but by reputation I'd say less than one hundred smoothing strokes per honing, maybe a lot less---I'd love to see a side by side test on this, with original Stanleys and Ohios up against the designer blades. Oak is hard? You should come to my shop and planes some purpleheart or ipe or something (G) when I make a rock maple plane I keep thinking is this softwood? (G) ---- Start of Message 130858 (thread 50603) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-03-18 07:39:36 Subject: RE: advancing the blade to keep planning : -----Original Message----- : From: Maddex, Peter [mailto:peter.maddex@n...] : Sent: 17 March 2004 16:33 : To: oldtools : Subject: RE: [oldtools] advancing the blade to keep planning : : Their must be some slack in the adjustment mechanism so I blade : will get pushed back a small way, maybe enough to need : advancing just to : take all the backlash out. For this reason, the last movement of the adjusting knob should be a forward one. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 130859 (thread 50603) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-03-18 07:39:36 Subject: RE: advancing the blade to keep planning : -----Original Message----- : From: Alan Womack [mailto:arwbackup@w...] : Sent: 17 March 2004 18:52 : To: oldtools : Subject: re:[oldtools] advancing the blade to keep planning : When you are smoothing a very hard wood with a smoothing : plane and therefore : you have a very small mouth, are you pulling the original : stanley blades to : sharpen them in 5 minutes? Or can you do a whole table top? : Or the gist, is : how often are you touching up the edge when planning? One variable to consider when considering intervals between sharpenings is the propensity of tearout. On a nice clean knot-free piece one could probably plane much longer with a blunting blade than in a case where tearout is to be avoided. Incidentally, during an experiment on some ebony that contained 'stone' inclusions (probably calcium oxalate) an old carbon steel blade gave up long before the Stanley, but the 'signatures' left by the Stanley were much worse. Mind you, this was only one blade versus another. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 130860 (thread 50603) ---- From: "Maddex, Peter" Date: 2004-03-18 08:58:02 Subject: RE: advancing the blade to keep planning -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Gorman [mailto:amgron@c...]=20 =20 For this reason, the last movement of the adjusting knob should be a forward one. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net Hi, But their must be some play it the adjuster pivot and adjuster, maybe it usually gets taken up on the first stroke so we actually set the blade deeper, and the first contact removes the backlash bringing all the parts of the adjuster mechanism tightly into contact. Maybe if you have the lever cap set down hard the play will be taken up gradually. pete Peter Michael Maddex Mad Bad and Dangerous to Know Communications & IT Services The Nottingham Trent University Ext 2765 ---- Start of Message 130872 (thread 50603) ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-03-18 08:38:03 Subject: re: advancing the blade to keep planning >> One variable to consider when considering intervals between sharpenings >> is the propensity of tearout. Experience with the same piece of wood bears this out. I pushed long last night on this piece and as the blade dulled, which was not a whole lotta strokes, maybe like 75. I started to get some tearout. It was not as deep as I had experienced before, but would be a finish issue. The dial indicator could not be used as dismounting it and remounting caused too much play in the mechanism for any reliability. Alan -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ++++ End of thread 50603 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50604 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130805 (thread 50604) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-17 15:46:53 Subject: Re: re:How do I quit this rag? Well, yes, being rather a newby here, I was wondering, though not to the point of extreme consternation (at just turned 50 that stuff is not real good for you). But since you did provide links to the archives, I clicked on over there. What a blast! Nothin like some really great belly laughs to relieve the day's stress. Although, I must, after reading some of the posts, try to keep a better eye on my grammar and spellin so as to fit in here right good with the other gentle-persons of refinement (is this as in refining metals?). Great responses there. ++++ End of thread 50604 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50605 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130808 (thread 50605) ---- From: "Mike Duchaj" Date: 2004-03-17 11:12:29 Subject: Panel Cutting Guage Hi Ralph, I've been amassing the wares for the meet. I have a bunch of stuff on consignment from some local junk dealers. One of the things is a panel cutting gauge. Looks to made of beech. It has a tote-like handle on the cutting end and a rocker shaped fence. The fence had tack glides. The tote has a little wheel in the bottom. The blade is held by a small wedge. The whole thing is about 18" long maybe a bit longer. I haven't found a maker's mark yet.The set screw has a ring as the wing nut. Generally pretty nice shape. The tote is a little loose, and the cheeks of the throat for the wedge are a little split. Is this a "common as dirt" item, or at least of interest to a collector? Mike Duchaj Elgin, IL PS. I may bring GIT#2 to the meet. Is there a charge for that? ++++ End of thread 50605 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50606 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130813 (thread 50606) ---- From: Roger Date: 2004-03-17 10:37:24 Subject: FS/FT Spring cleaning Folks I have two items here that I thought I would offer up to folks on the list before I throw them to the wolves. I would prefer to trade folks something for them, but I will put a price on them that I would let them go for. Standard old tools terms (I send item, you send money for item plus shipping cost) apply for everyone who has I bio. First these are all USER items. Lots of rust, some broken/missing parts, but all should be put back into service. Item #1 is a Langdon Miter box. *WARNING* it is broken! This one is for parts only. It is a casualty of poor shipping. The front saw guide is TOAST (unless Jim Thomson wants to do some fancy brazing/welding). I pulled all the parts I needed from it already but there are plenty more that folks might need. I took the original stock guides from it and put in thier place a set I bought from Stan Faulin years ago (he sells these replacements for $20 http://www.tooltrip.com/tooltrip8/index.htm). I'll sell you the whole thing for $20 . If you only want specific parts I can pull them off and save you the shipping. Here are some pictures: http://www.auburn.edu/~birkhrd/Woodworking&Tools/Miterbox%20the%20good.jpg http://www.auburn.edu/~birkhrd/Woodworking&Tools/Miterbox%20the%20bad.jpg http://www.auburn.edu/~birkhrd/Woodworking&Tools/Miterbox%20the%20ugly.jpg Item #2 is a Stanley #8 joiner *WARNING* it is in rough shape. This would be an ideal first joiner for a newbie who wants to try one out but does not want to lay out the cash for a prefect one. It is a type 5 or 6 I think. This is the joiner I learned with. The bad points are: The lateral adjuster was broken off, the lever cap was broken in half and brazed back together, there is a pretty big chip out of the top of the tote, and there is not a lot more blade life left. I would like to see it go to a good home for $30. Here are the pictures for it: http://www.auburn.edu/~birkhrd/Woodworking&Tools/User%20%238.jpg http://www.auburn.edu/~birkhrd/Woodworking&Tools/User%20%238%20bad.jpg I would be interested in trading for: Spoon bits Wooden planes marked SHIVERICK Boring machine bits Roger Birkhead in AL ++++ End of thread 50606 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50607 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130816 (thread 50607) ---- From: pjm21@d... Date: 2004-03-17 12:37:33 Subject: Table Saw, was smelly boxes out... Yup. There is such a thing as a table saw. I had some trouble with a saw ID and brought it to PATINA to get an ID. Thanks to Tony Seo, a dealer friend of Tony's, and Todd Hughes, I am the proud owner of a Browne (nee Disston) table saw. Mine is stamped, with an apple pistol grip handle and has split nuts. No cord in sight. I tried ASCII art but it's more confusing than this description: The saw is 22 inches long. The top is straight with no skew, nib, or anything else. The toe is 1 inch tall and the heel is 3 inches tall. Put cross-cut teeth in between the toe and heel at 9 ppi or so and add the pistol grip handle. Voila! Table Saw. BTW, I'm a digester too and there wasn't one for the 14th. Those posts showed up in the digest for the 15th. Pete Grosse Pointe Park, Michigan Thawing out from holding an aluminum flashlight at PATINA HB wrote: What is a TABLESAW? I never saw any mention of that model on the Disstonian website.??! ---- Start of Message 130817 (thread 50607) ---- From: "Pete Taran" Date: 2004-03-17 13:27:32 Subject: Re: Table Saw, was smelly boxes out... You might also consider visiting the Vintagesaws.com library, where there is an article containing information on tablesaws. Pete Pete Taran Vintage Saws on the web at: http://www.vintagesaws.com > > > > > Yup. There is such a thing as a table saw. I had some trouble with a > saw ID and brought it to PATINA to get an ID. Thanks to Tony > Seo, a dealer friend of Tony's, and Todd Hughes, I am the proud > owner of a Browne (nee Disston) table saw. Mine is stamped, > with an apple pistol grip handle and has split nuts. No cord in sight. > > I tried ASCII art but it's more confusing than this description: > The saw is 22 inches long. The top is straight with no skew, nib, or > anything else. The toe is 1 inch tall and the heel is 3 inches tall. > Put cross-cut teeth in between the toe and heel at 9 ppi or so and add > the pistol grip handle. Voila! Table Saw. > > BTW, I'm a digester too and there wasn't one for the 14th. Those > posts showed up in the digest for the 15th. > > Pete > Grosse Pointe Park, Michigan > Thawing out from holding an aluminum flashlight at PATINA > > HB wrote: > > What is a TABLESAW? I never saw any mention of that > model on the Disstonian website.??! > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ++++ End of thread 50607 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50608 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130818 (thread 50608) ---- From: "Tony Zaffuto" Date: 2004-03-17 13:31:31 Subject: drawer height Any of you galoots out there recall any rule of thumb for determining height of drawers? I'm in the planning stage of a "lingerie" chest of drawers, and I believe the bottom drawer should be the largest, with each drawer dimensioned a bit smaller. If my memory serves me correct, each succeeding drawer will be 7/8" shorter in height. Any comments? ---- Start of Message 130819 (thread 50608) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-03-17 10:39:49 Subject: Re: drawer height On 17 Mar 2004 at 13:31, Tony Zaffuto wrote: > Any of you galoots out there recall any rule of thumb for determining height > of drawers? I'm in the planning stage of a "lingerie" chest of drawers, and > I believe the bottom drawer should be the largest, with each drawer > dimensioned a bit smaller. If my memory serves me correct, each succeeding > drawer will be 7/8" shorter in height. Any comments? There have been quite a few articles on this in the last couple of years. One from Woodwork is available here: http://www.woodcentral.com/articles/jones/jones1.shtml -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 130820 (thread 50608) ---- From: "Robert Fortier" Date: 2004-03-17 13:45:19 Subject: RE: drawer height I think the answer to that one is ``It depends`` I'm in charge of the R&D departement for a furniture making business, and what we do here is a mock-up of a piece, out of cardboard, panell, scrap, anything. Then we judge the dimensions, experiment with mouldings, chanfer, dimensions.... In your case, a full size drawing, with cardboard drawer front might just do it. My 2 cents... Bob in Sherbrooke, Province of Québec p.s. have it approved by SWMBO...very important... -----Message d'origine----- De : Tony Zaffuto [mailto:amzmti@a...] Envoyé : 17 mars, 2004 13:32 À : oldtools Objet : [oldtools] drawer height Any of you galoots out there recall any rule of thumb for determining height of drawers? I'm in the planning stage of a "lingerie" chest of drawers, and I believe the bottom drawer should be the largest, with each drawer dimensioned a bit smaller. If my memory serves me correct, each succeeding drawer will be 7/8" shorter in height. Any comments? ---- Start of Message 130823 (thread 50608) ---- From: hunter.cox@i... Date: 2004-03-17 14:14:58 Subject: RE: drawer height Robert had a question about graduating drawers, what you are thinking about is the golden proportion. lots of things in nature match it, the 3x5 index card is approximately in line with it. it is the ratio between the long and short sides of a properly proportioned rectangle, there are lots of ways to integrate it into design. it is something like 1.616 or thereabouts. they just had areticles in both FWW and Popular Woodworking on this very topic. Hunter in Richmond ---- Start of Message 130831 (thread 50608) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-17 13:22:28 Subject: RE: drawer height Tony, I think there is an Italian system of proportion so you may be in luck. I seem to recall it was called the Fabuchi sequence or something like that. Blake >>> 03/17/2004 12:14:58 PM >>> Robert had a question about graduating drawers, what you are thinking about is the golden proportion. lots of things in nature match it, the 3x5 index card is approximately in line with it. it is the ratio between the long and short sides of a properly proportioned rectangle, there are lots of ways to integrate it into design. it is something like 1.616 or thereabouts. they just had areticles in both FWW and Popular Woodworking on this very topic. Hunter in Richmond ---- Start of Message 130833 (thread 50608) ---- From: Bill Kasper Date: 2004-03-17 12:46:05 Subject: Re: drawer height that would be the fibonacci series... 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,etc... comes close by iteration, if you ratio one number and the next, to the golden proportion of 1.618ish, the further and further out you go (ie 5/3=1.666, 34/21=1.619, and 144/89=1.6179775, etc.) bill felton, ca On Mar 17, 2004, at 12:22 PM, Blake Ashley wrote: > Tony, I think there is an Italian system of proportion so you may be > in > luck. I seem to recall it was called the Fabuchi sequence or something > like that. > > Blake ---- Start of Message 130834 (thread 50608) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-17 13:50:19 Subject: Re: drawer height That's it! Thanks Bill. My apologies to Mr. Fibonacci for butchering his name. >>> Bill Kasper 03/17/2004 1:46:05 PM >>> that would be the fibonacci series... 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,etc... comes close by iteration, if you ratio one number and the next, to the golden proportion of 1.618ish, the further and further out you go (ie 5/3=1.666, 34/21=1.619, and 144/89=1.6179775, etc.) bill felton, ca On Mar 17, 2004, at 12:22 PM, Blake Ashley wrote: > Tony, I think there is an Italian system of proportion so you may be > in > luck. I seem to recall it was called the Fabuchi sequence or something > like that. > > Blake ---- Start of Message 130835 (thread 50608) ---- From: "Murray Roblin" Date: 2004-03-17 13:01:54 Subject: RE: drawer height Fibonacci sequence 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 ........ A sequence of numbers whose ratio of (n+1)/n approaches 1.618, referred to as phi, the golden ratio, ... This proportion appears frequently in nature and has been used as an important ratio since man started to create things, e.g., Parthenon, pyramids, UN building, art, credit cards.=20 An introductory link is at=20 http://jwilson.coe.uga.edu/EMT668/EMAT6680.2000/Obara/Emat6690/Golden%20 Ratio/golden.html or at this tinyurl: http://tinyurl.com/2ou86. In any case, this ratio is very visually appealing and is often used in furniture, e.g. the width of a table to its length, the progression of drawer sizes, the relationship between apron height and table leg thickness, the height of a shelf on an end table, ..... Google or Yahoo on "Fibonacci Furniture" and you may find some interesting info. MDR > -----Original Message----- > From: Blake Ashley [mailto:Blake.Ashley@t...]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 12:22 PM > To: oldtools > Cc: oldtools@c... > Subject: RE: [oldtools] drawer height >=20 >=20 > Tony, I think there is an Italian system of proportion so=20 > you may be in luck. I seem to recall it was called the=20 > Fabuchi sequence or something like that. =20 >=20 > Blake =20 >=20 > >>> 03/17/2004 12:14:58 PM >>> > Robert had a question about graduating drawers, >=20 > what you are thinking about is the golden proportion. lots=20 > of things in=20 > nature match it, the 3x5 index card is approximately in line with it.=20 > it=20 > is the ratio between the long and short sides of a properly=20 > proportioned=20 > rectangle, there are lots of ways to integrate it into design.=20 >=20 > it is something like 1.616 or thereabouts. they just had areticles in >=20 > both FWW and Popular Woodworking on this very topic.=20 >=20 >=20 > Hunter in Richmond >=20 > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/=20 > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=3Doldtools >=20 > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=3Doldtools >=20 >=20 >=20 ---- Start of Message 130838 (thread 50608) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-17 17:35:00 Subject: Re: drawer height Tony writes : > Any of you galoots out there recall any rule of thumb for > determining height of drawers? I'm in the planning stage > of a "lingerie" chest of drawers, and I believe the bottom > drawer should be the largest, with each drawer dimensioned > a bit smaller. If my memory serves me correct, each succeeding > drawer will be 7/8" shorter in height. Any comments? I recently read that each succeeding drawer should be shorter by the thickness of the piece between the drawers. Your 7/8" is probably pretty close. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130845 (thread 50608) ---- From: Chuck Taylor Date: 2004-03-17 15:31:36 Subject: Re: drawer height Blake, I don't think that he minds too much, given that he has been dead for 754 years or so.... Chuck Taylor in Everett, WA, USA --- Blake Ashley wrote: > My apologies to Mr. Fibonacci for butchering > his name. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130861 (thread 50608) ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-03-18 09:10:36 Subject: Re: drawer height hunter.cox@i... wrote: > Robert had a question about graduating drawers, "graduating". That's the word rattling in my memory. So armed, I proceeded, and: http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_i- d=117200&submit_thread=1#message http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~csw- ingle/archive/get.phtml?message_id=117199&submit_thread=1#message (thread got broken in two) BugBear ---- Start of Message 130869 (thread 50608) ---- From: "Steve from Kokomo" Date: 2004-03-18 09:50:14 Subject: RE: drawer height The golden mean (1.618) is probably too much. A six-drawer cabinet could have a top drawer 1" high and a bottom drawer 11" high. I think the key is to experiment with a ratio (say 1.1) or an increment (say 7/8") and draw or mock it up. 6 drawers totalling approx 42" high using a 1.1 ratio would produce: 5 1/2 6 6 5/8 7 3/8 8 8 7/8 ----- 42 3/8 Using an increment of 7/8" would produce: 4 7/8 5 3/4 6 5/8 7 1/2 8 3/8 9 1/4 ------ 42 3/8 hunter.cox@i... said: > Robert had a question about graduating drawers, > > what you are thinking about is the golden proportion. lots of things in > nature match it, the 3x5 index card is approximately in line with it. it > is the ratio between the long and short sides of a properly proportioned > rectangle, there are lots of ways to integrate it into design. > > it is something like 1.616 or thereabouts. they just had areticles in > both FWW and Popular Woodworking on this very topic. > > > Hunter in Richmond > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > ---- Start of Message 130874 (thread 50608) ---- From: "Tony Zaffuto" Date: 2004-03-18 12:03:14 Subject: re: drawer height Steve, Your number system is the one closest to the one I remember reading about. I believe the article was in a FWW article about classical furniture dimensions, and graduated drawers. In my first post/query, I said I thought the reducing dimension was 7/8". I laid out the chest last night with my drawer dimensions and chest height nearly identical to yours. FWIW, the appearance was the most appealing of the several layouts I did. Tony ---- Start of Message 130875 (thread 50608) ---- From: Johnny Johnson Date: 2004-03-18 12:32:15 Subject: RE: drawer height At 09:50 AM 3/18/2004 -0500, Steve from Kokomo wrote: >I think the key is to experiment with a ratio (say 1.1) or an increment >(say 7/8") and draw or mock it up. Did anyone post the mathematics used in calculating the incremental method? Excuse me if this is old hat to everyone but - you can use the average drawer height to make the calculation. For example: A chest that is 34" from the top of the top drawer to the bottom of the lower drawer. There are five drawers, the dividers between drawers are 1" thick and an increment of 1" is wanted. There would be four 1" dividers between the five drawers so you would subtract 4" from the available drawer space of 34" leaving 30". Divide the 30" by 5 giving an average drawer size of 6" which would be the size of the center drawer. Then increment the drawers above and below by the desired increment amount of 1". So, the drawer layout would be 4"+5"+6"+7"+8"+ (4) 1" dividers = 34". Things work a little different when you have an even number of drawers in that no one drawer will be the "average" drawer height. You find the average drawer height as outlined above but the drawer directly below the center divider will be the average drawer height plus 1/2 the increment amount. Then you increment the drawers above and below by the increment amount. Let's say that you have a case that's 29 1/2" from the top of the top drawer to the bottom of the lower drawer, the dividers are 1/2" thick, and you want an increment amount of 1". There would be three 1/2" dividers between the four drawers so you would subtract 1 1/2" from the available drawer space of 29 1/2" leaving 28" for the four drawers. Divide the 28" by 4 giving an average drawer size of 7". Adding 1/2 the increment amount of 1" to the average drawer size of 7" gives you a drawer size of 7 1/2" for the drawer right below the center divider. Then you would increment the other drawers by 1" from the 7 1/2" one. So, the drawer layout would be 5 1/2" + 6 1/2" + 7 1/2" + 8 1/2" + (3) 1/2" dividers = 29 1/2". As someone else mentioned, it's common to use the thickness of the divider as the increment amount but the calculations would work the same as above. I just used 1" to make the math simpler. Hope the above is clearer than mud. After rereading it I'm not sure that it is. Later, Johnny __________________________ Johnny Johnson Lilburn, GA mailto:jjohnso4@c... ---- Start of Message 130876 (thread 50608) ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-03-18 09:50:21 Subject: Re: drawer height Johnny Johnson wrote: > Did anyone post the mathematics used in calculating the incremental > method? Excuse me if this is old hat to everyone but - you can use the > average drawer height to make the calculation. For some reason, this made me think of a five panel door one would find in an older house. Might look funky in a good way (pee-wee's playhouse or Dr. Seuss), gonna sketch it out. -- Kyle Accardi zapping my brace for freedom ---- Start of Message 130877 (thread 50608) ---- From: hb Date: 2004-03-18 09:51:05 Subject: RE: drawer height The problem with using the golden ratio here is that it would also require that you change the width of the drawer too, right? I don't think that's what is wanted here. The golden ration would be useful for determining the height to width ratio of the piece though, right? Or did I read that article wrong? HB - Confused in Reading, PA. Where it's a beautiful sunny day in march, but below freezing??? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130878 (thread 50608) ---- From: Bill Kasper Date: 2004-03-18 10:06:26 Subject: Re: drawer height it's for determining *any* ratio...the width/height, the relative height of repeated items, etc. think of it this way. if you have this: a................b.......c the golden ratio would say that the ratio of b-c:a-b is the same as a-b:a-c. no widths at all. best, bill felton, ca On Mar 18, 2004, at 9:51 AM, hb wrote: > > The problem with using the golden ratio here is that > it would also require that you change the width of the > drawer too, right? I don't think that's what is > wanted here. The golden ration would be useful for > determining the height to width ratio of the piece > though, right? > > Or did I read that article wrong? ---- Start of Message 130882 (thread 50608) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-03-18 17:30:20 Subject: RE: drawer height Johnny wrote : >As someone else mentioned, it's common to use the thickness of the divider >as the increment amount but the calculations would work the same as >above. I just used 1" to make the math simpler. It's occurred to me that it wasn't specified at the beginning of this thread whether there were any dividers or not. The modern chest of drawers, like the one linked to, often doesn't have any dividers at all so you can't use them in calculating the progression. The neat thing about using the divider as the increment is that it makes the rectangle made up of an upper drawer plus the divider the same size as the rectangle of the drawer below it. So you have two identical rectangles side by side. The next two on the way up are identical and so on, so all the drawers are nicely linked all the way up. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 130883 (thread 50608) ---- From: "Jim Cook" Date: 2004-03-18 17:50:17 Subject: RE: drawer height Hi Paul, I'm sure you didn't mean this, but your description of identical rectangles gave me a vision of identically *proportioned* rectangles from bottom to top, with the whole stack being wider at the bottom and narrower at the top. If you took that to an extreme, and tilted the sides of the carcase inward, I wonder what that would do to the perspective of the piece. Lying on the floor looking up could get really wierd, I guess... Jim Cook Newton, MA (but in Atlanta right now) > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Pedersen [mailto:ppedersen@v...] > The neat thing about using the divider as the increment is that > it makes the rectangle made up of an upper drawer plus the divider > the same size as the rectangle of the drawer below it. So you > have two identical rectangles side by side. The next two on the > way up are identical and so on, so all the drawers are nicely > linked all the way up. ---- Start of Message 130886 (thread 50608) ---- From: Jonathan Cunningham Date: 2004-03-18 15:50:48 Subject: Re: drawer height Jonathan Cunningham wrote: > Here's what I do: http://furniture.dawfun.com/graduatedDrawers.jpg > > Basically, you draw the shape of your cabinet in actual size, and > connect the top-left and bottom right corners with a curved line (can > also be straight, but I use curves mostly). You then mark > horizontally where the top of the bottom drawer will go, and mark > diagonally a line between the bottom-left corner of the bottom drawer > and the point where the top of the bottom drawer intersects the curve > (at the blue dot). > > At this point you have your angle. Copy this angle for the next > drawer and you'll be able to locate the position where the top of the > next drawer will intersect the curve (blue dot). Keep repeating this > process and you'll have a nice graduated set of drawers. > > I'm not smart enough to tell you how to perfectly fit seven or five > drawers into a space...normally I just eyeball it. This technique > gets me 95% of the way there, and I don't need a calculator (or > abacus, in a properly outfitted Galooterie). > > Enjoy, > > Jonathan > Tacoma, WA > > Jim Cook wrote: > >> Hi Paul, >> >> I'm sure you didn't mean this, but your description of identical >> rectangles >> gave me a vision of identically *proportioned* rectangles from bottom to >> top, with the whole stack being wider at the bottom and narrower at >> the top. >> >> If you took that to an extreme, and tilted the sides of the carcase >> inward, >> I wonder what that would do to the perspective of the piece. Lying >> on the >> floor looking up could get really wierd, I guess... >> >> Jim Cook >> Newton, MA (but in Atlanta right now) >> >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Paul Pedersen [mailto:ppedersen@v...] >>> >> >> >> >> >>> The neat thing about using the divider as the increment is that >>> it makes the rectangle made up of an upper drawer plus the divider >>> the same size as the rectangle of the drawer below it. So you >>> have two identical rectangles side by side. The next two on the >>> way up are identical and so on, so all the drawers are nicely >>> linked all the way up. >>> >> >> >> >> Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >> To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >> http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools >> >> >> >> > > > ---- Start of Message 130892 (thread 50608) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-03-19 07:30:44 Subject: RE: drawer height : -----Original Message----- : From: Tony Zaffuto [mailto:amzmti@a...] : Sent: 17 March 2004 18:32 : To: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] drawer height : : : Any of you galoots out there recall any rule of thumb for : determining height : of drawers? Reading the thread prompted by Tony's posting, I was reminded that I was taught (by Edward Barnsley) that in determining some proportions one should take account of the effect of perspective. The viewing distance makes a difference of course, but the foreshortening arising from looking downwards will have greater effect on the apparent width of the bottom drawer than on the top one. This is something to think about when working from the straight-on view of a conventional orthographic elevation. Incidentally, the favourite proportion among the Cotswold makers for the overall width/height of a chest of drawers was a rectangle in which an equilateral triangle could be inscribed. I've checked this on a few of Ernest Gimson's drawings. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 130905 (thread 50608) ---- From: Scott Stager Date: 2004-03-19 08:10:42 Subject: RE: drawer height Make a visit to your locak Pier 1. They got 'em. Must be popular with the low cost decorator set. Wierd when you first see them, but not really that bad. A number of different sizes. Of course that design reduces the overall internal volume, so of course it would wast too much usable space for a pack rat like me :0-) --Scott. At 04:50 PM 3/18/2004, Jim Cook wrote: >Hi Paul, > >I'm sure you didn't mean this, but your description of identical rectangles >gave me a vision of identically *proportioned* rectangles from bottom to >top, with the whole stack being wider at the bottom and narrower at the top. > >If you took that to an extreme, and tilted the sides of the carcase inward, >I wonder what that would do to the perspective of the piece. Lying on the >floor looking up could get really wierd, I guess... > >Jim Cook >Newton, MA (but in Atlanta right now) ++++ End of thread 50608 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50609 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130821 (thread 50609) ---- From: "Tony Zaffuto" Date: 2004-03-17 13:48:06 Subject: Fw: drawer hieght ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Zaffuto To: Oldtools Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 1:47 PM Subject: RE: drawer hieght Thanks Ken, I printed out the article for review a little later. Actually I should say study for a little later! All those "mm's" will require some St. Paddy's very dark brown elixir to help me comprehend and translate into something a dumb old Italian can understand! ++++ End of thread 50609 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50610 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130826 (thread 50610) ---- From: mimulus@p... Date: 2004-03-17 11:40:22 Subject: What old tool did this? Kind and knowledgable folks, While looking at antique furniture yesterday, I was looking at an old dresser with dovetailed drawers, dated 1899 (it had been made across the street, so they had a good fix on the date). The drawer front was attached with single blind dovetails, and appeared to have been routed. Electrically. Otherwise it looked like I expected -- well patina'd wood, crumbly tails and brads holding much of it together (despite which it was still stronger than some of the new stuff they were selling.... staples... pfff!) I think we'd gotten past Leyden jars by then, but were there rotating routers a century ago. If it was a more recent repair, I'd kinda expect them to have gotten to the crumbly tails and pins. cur ---- Start of Message 130829 (thread 50610) ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-03-17 12:04:43 Subject: Re: What old tool did this? --- mimulus@p... wrote: > While looking at antique furniture yesterday, I was > looking at an old > dresser with dovetailed drawers, dated 1899 (it had > been made across the > street, so they had a good fix on the date). The > drawer front was > attached with single blind dovetails, and appeared > to have been routed. > Electrically. > I think we'd gotten past Leyden jars by then, but > were there rotating > routers a century ago. If it was a more recent > repair, I'd kinda expect > them to have gotten to the crumbly tails and pins. Well, there were various kinds of shapers that were powered by belts run by water or steam power, or maybe even an *l*ctric motor. I have an interesting catalog from a large electrical supplier from around 1900 (maybe 1897 but I can't recall exactly) that has toasters, door bells, motors, etc. It also has braces, bits and some other handtools. (Even lists McCLaren's patent corner brace.) Large furniture making shops probably had all manner of power tools run by steam or water (making them worthy of mention here, if I remember the FAQ accurately.) So, just because it looks machine made, doesn't mean the portable *l*ctr*c tools were involved. ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130830 (thread 50610) ---- From: Roger Birkhead Date: 2004-03-17 14:22:00 Subject: Re: What old tool did this? This cut could have easily been made by a belt driven shaper. You should check the building across the street for evidence of shaft hangers, etc. Pretty much everything we have today that is driven by an electric motor started out belt driven . At least this holds true for stationary equipment. Check out: http://www.oldwwmachines.com/ for countless examples. Of course modern equipment is all buried in lasers and safety guards and stuff :-) . It is much more fun to watch those square head cutters spinning around. I'll bet I'm one of the few 30 year olds who gets to run this kind of stuff on occassion. And yes there is a steam engine involved! Roger in AL mimulus@p... wrote: >Kind and knowledgable folks, > >While looking at antique furniture yesterday, I was looking at an old >dresser with dovetailed drawers, dated 1899 (it had been made across the >street, so they had a good fix on the date). The drawer front was >attached with single blind dovetails, and appeared to have been routed. >Electrically. Otherwise it looked like I expected -- well patina'd >wood, crumbly tails and brads holding much of it together (despite which >it was still stronger than some of the new stuff they were selling.... >staples... pfff!) > >I think we'd gotten past Leyden jars by then, but were there rotating >routers a century ago. If it was a more recent repair, I'd kinda expect >them to have gotten to the crumbly tails and pins. > >cur > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > ---- Start of Message 130832 (thread 50610) ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-03-17 14:27:46 Subject: Re: What old tool did this? Jim Erdman wrote about old-time dovetail cutters: > > Well, there were various kinds of shapers that were > powered by belts run by water or steam power, or maybe > even an *l*ctric motor. [snip] > So, just because it looks machine made, doesn't mean > the portable *l*ctr*c tools were involved. A quick look at DATAMP shows patents for dovetailing machines going back to the early 1830s. Most of the early ones are line-shaft driven, and were designed to cut through dovetails for high-volume production of boxes and the like. A little later (1860s and on) the machines added half-blinds to their repertoire, so they could be used for production of finer furniture. By 1880 or so, these machines are starting to look a lot like the production machines of today. -- Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL "He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; he who dares not is a slave" - Wm. Drummond ---- Start of Message 130846 (thread 50610) ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-03-17 15:46:35 Subject: Re: What old tool did this? And when I was at Ed's place not long ago I saw a pedal-powered shaper. All human-powered, all the time. AAAndrew Who's all human powered all the time except when he's not in Durham, North Carolina. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130851 (thread 50610) ---- From: mimulus@p... Date: 2004-03-17 17:38:27 Subject: Re: What old tool did this? Roger, Ralph, Jim and others, There is indeed an old dovetailer to be seen at http://www.oldwwmachines.com/Agrirama/Dodds.asp which has me itchin to get across the street to the factory site (now a different furniture store) to see what they might have. Of course, I have no intention of getting too close to that slope! cur ++++ End of thread 50610 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50611 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130827 (thread 50611) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-17 19:37:56 Subject: Raising an Etch Saw the vinegar and sandpaper thing for raising an etch here somewhere a couple days back. Anyway, got the GK GITs' saw outa the soup last night and thought I'd give it a try. "Dunn and Company" popped right out, and the rest of the blade shined up somewhat also. Too Cool! I gave a quick shot to my old stand-by D-8 that had been sanded rather than electrolysized to remove the rust and it didn't work near as well, but I still have a mess of saws to do, and they'll all go in the soup. I cleaned the vinegar off real good and put a light coat of linseed oil on as I was fresh out of WD-40 and gotta coat em with somethin. That brings up the question of, What sort of oil etc to put on blades to keep the rust from comin back. We're headin into the rainy springtime and . . . ---- Start of Message 130848 (thread 50611) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-17 19:04:07 Subject: Re: Raising an Etch >That brings up the question of, What sort of oil etc to put on blades >to keep the rust from comin back. We're headin into the rainy >springtime and . . . I use camellia oil (similar to olive oil) http://www.lie-nielsen.com/tool.html?id=CO&cart=10795675237933515 I bought an 8oz. spray bottle a year ago and I still have 2/3 of the bottle left. Works for me. regards Jonathan NYC ---- Start of Message 130895 (thread 50611) ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-03-19 05:25:37 Subject: Re: Raising an Etch I use marvel mystery oil. I find that even if slightly over applied some of it dries away leaving a very very thin film of protection which is easy enough to wipe off next time the tool gets used. > From: Jonathan Peck : > >That brings up the question of, What sort of oil etc to put on blades to keep the rust > >from comin back. We're headin into the rainy springtime and . . . ---- Start of Message 130916 (thread 50611) ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-03-19 10:03:07 Subject: Re: Raising an Etch I have been conducting experiments on rust in my workshed So far the winners are: 1. "Fogging oil" wiped on with a rag. This is an oil with high coating and durability used in engines that will be stored for protracted times. The Borg has sray cans of it. I begged a pint from a racing shop nearby that had a 5 gallon can of the stuff. 2. "Custom blend #3" By approx volume: 8 parts beeswax, 2 parts carnauba, 2 parts orange oil, 2 parts air tool oil, 2-3 parts turpentine. In the winter (unheated) shop I pour a little additonal turp on the top of the mixture -- which gives me a soft layer on top. Wd40 was not particularly good -- the protection was lost unless you really glopped it on in which case you ended up with a sticky dirt attracting coating (WD40 seems to hvae a lot of volatile solvent that evaporates with time). I warm the tool when temps are low before applying the custom blend with a rag. The Custom Blend #3 can clean a bit as well as preserve and I also use it on wood, though I use a different blend on all wood things. Others tried: Marvel Mystery Oil Motor Oil Lithium "white" grease Three or four custom blends Several brand name rust protectants John Lederer Jerry Palmer wrote: >I cleaned the vinegar off real good and put a light coat of linseed oil >on as I was fresh out of WD-40 and gotta coat em with somethin. That >brings up the question of, What sort of oil etc to put on blades to >keep the rust from comin back. We're headin into the rainy springtime >and . . . Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > ---- Start of Message 132611 (thread 50611) ---- From: "Christopher Otto" Date: 2004-04-26 02:06:40 Subject: re: Raising an etch If memory serves, someone mentioned using that black runny stuff in those bottles with a sponge applicator. Since I don't actually own any shoes that need polishing, I used permanent marker with good results the one time I felt like darkening an etch. Wiped the marker over the etch a couple times until it was good and dark, rubbed it in the direction of the "grain", very lightly, with some 600 grit SiC paper on a block until the ink was only left in the etch, and paste-waxed the blade. It worked well... ++++ End of thread 50611 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50612 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130828 (thread 50612) ---- From: mimulus@p... Date: 2004-03-17 11:50:08 Subject: boxwood ruler straighening For a second time in a day, I beseech the assembled galoots for an answer. I have two boxwood folders (24 inches, 3 folds). Both are gently bent, perhaps by their time spent here in sunny Oregon. Is there a recommended means of straightening them out so that they could be used accurately? Thanks, curt o'corvallis ++++ End of thread 50612 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50613 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130841 (thread 50613) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-17 14:57:57 Subject: Brass wing nuts MSC has them listed on page 1983 of the online catalog. 1/4-20 brass wing nuts are part No. 67593244, and cost $36.71 per 100. That is a good price and I wouldn't mind having a dozen of them, but a hundred is a bit much. If anybody buys them, let us know on the porch. I don't think there will be any problem getting rid of your excess. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ++++ End of thread 50613 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50614 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130842 (thread 50614) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-17 16:02:27 Subject: cut my finger Dear Friends, I sliced my finger last night and I am so happy about it. I'm happy because I sliced it while waxing the first cross-cut saw I ever sharpened myself. (I filed rip teeth in a dovetail saw some years back, but I did that with a jig and it was the simpler rip profile) It's an old D-8 my Dad gave me years ago. It probably had not been sharpened in at least forty years. It was dull, dull. dull. Gawd, it was dull. And the teeth were all ragged and misshapen. And now it's sharp enough to slice my finger. :-) And the teeth are like shiny little triangular soldiers in two perfect columns, ready to march into battle with any wood fibers that cross their path. I ordered the file and followed the instructions from Vintagesaws. And now I can casually toss around terms like "fleam angle" and "rake" and "gullet" at parties. And sharpen my own saws!!!!! Next, the Disston Diamond Jubilee will meet Mr. File. Blake ---- Start of Message 130850 (thread 50614) ---- From: Steve and Dianne Noe Date: 2004-03-17 20:17:32 Subject: Re: cut my finger > I sliced my finger last night and I am so happy about it. I'm happy > because I sliced it while waxing the first cross-cut saw I ever > sharpened myself. (I filed rip teeth in a dovetail saw some years back, > but I did that with a jig and it was the simpler rip profile) > > It's an old D-8 my Dad gave me years ago. It probably had not been > sharpened in at least forty years. It was dull, dull. dull. Gawd, it > was dull. And the teeth were all ragged and misshapen. And now it's > sharp enough to slice my finger. :-) [snip] Scott Post, Ralph Brendler, and I hereby award you the Ron Harper Medal, Junior Grade, Third Class. ;^> ;^> Let's Just Say (tm the MofA), you ain't a Galoot if you don't have at least one scab at all times. Steve Noe, in Indianapolis dandsnoe@m... "Of course there's a lot of knowledge in universities: the freshmen bring a little in; the seniors don't take much away, so knowledge sort of accumulates..." -- Anonymous ---- Start of Message 130867 (thread 50614) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-18 14:20:12 Subject: re: cut my finger It is a great feeling, isn't it? I recently went through the same experience and have now sharpened several, large crosscut and rip down to itty bitty ones on backsaws. I have even cut new teeth into an old Jackson that had been abused over a number of years. In several places along its length the teeth were completely gone. Though I tried to interpolate teeth into those areas, I finally ended up jointing the entire blade flat and starting over from scratch. I clamped a tape measure into the vise just below the very edge of the blade, the marked a tooth with the file at every 1/16" mark along the length. Then went back and cut teeth at each mark, jointed those, and filed them and now have an excellent 16 PPI dovetail saw. ---- Start of Message 130976 (thread 50614) ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-03-22 09:14:32 Subject: Re: cut my finger It is actually healthy for men to cut themselves regularly. Men tend to accumulate iron in their bodies. (Galoots also accumulate iron in their workshop, but that's different.) Unlike excess iron in your shop, excess iron in your body is unhealthy. (Make sure any vitamins you take are iron-free by the way). Regular bleeding helps men shed excess iron. >>> Steve and Dianne Noe 03/17/2004 6:17:32 PM >>> > I sliced my finger last night and I am so happy about it. I'm happy > because I sliced it while waxing the first cross-cut saw I ever > sharpened myself. (I filed rip teeth in a dovetail saw some years back, > but I did that with a jig and it was the simpler rip profile) > > It's an old D-8 my Dad gave me years ago. It probably had not been > sharpened in at least forty years. It was dull, dull. dull. Gawd, it > was dull. And the teeth were all ragged and misshapen. And now it's > sharp enough to slice my finger. :-) [snip] Scott Post, Ralph Brendler, and I hereby award you the Ron Harper Medal, Junior Grade, Third Class. ;^> ;^> Let's Just Say (tm the MofA), you ain't a Galoot if you don't have at least one scab at all times. Steve Noe, in Indianapolis dandsnoe@m... "Of course there's a lot of knowledge in universities: the freshmen bring a little in; the seniors don't take much away, so knowledge sort of accumulates..." -- Anonymous ---- Start of Message 130997 (thread 50614) ---- From: brucelove@c... Date: 2004-03-22 19:30:39 Subject: Re: cut my finger > It is actually healthy for men to cut themselves regularly. This is good to hear since I shed a nice pool of blood by inserting a chisel into the side of my thumb yesterday (but I did get some shop time). The highlight of the day was GIT #1 (who is 6) learning how to flatter his Dad in the workshop. "Those are the best dovetails I have ever seen Dad!" he said when, believe me, they were WAAAAYYYYY near the other end of the Dovetail spectrum. I wonder what he wants... Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ++++ End of thread 50614 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50615 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130849 (thread 50615) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-17 19:26:01 Subject: Sorry for the interuption Swmbo's on the way home from Vermont and is somewhere in Massachusetts with the git's. She called cuz' the low coolant level alarm is going off in the car (96' cherokee). All the gas stations she's passed are self service only and she needs to know what kind of coolant to buy (apparantly there are different kinds). The last time I was under a car is when I was four and Mom ran me over (by accident). Any help will be appreciated. Thanks ---- Start of Message 130852 (thread 50615) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-17 21:37:54 Subject: Re: Sorry for the interuption Wow, I'm not usually at a loss for words, but I'm finding it hard to express my grattitude for all of the replies that I have recieved. What a great place this porch, my warmest thanks to all galoots from Massachusets all the way to Austrailia. Sorry again for the wasted bandwidth, but a quick update: I was getting worried since I wasn't able to contact swmbo for awhile, and my only advice to her was to "find a galoot". She just called to let me know that everything is alright and that after passing 10 self service gas stations, she finally found a Texaco that was open. The mechanic was filling the coolant when she looked up, noticed the North Hampton sign, looked over to her right and recognized the hotel as the one we stayed in when we were up for my stepbrother's wedding. She called Scott and Najo, who just moved into their new house 3 minutes away, and after a tour of the new digs, and some caffein, I got the we're OK call. Whew!! Thank You best regards Jonathan ++++ End of thread 50615 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50616 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130854 (thread 50616) ---- From: "Christopher Otto" Date: 2004-03-18 02:43:02 Subject: Violin Maker's photos, new ones If you're interested in the subject you've probably seen Derek Roberts' page, http://www.violins.demon.co.uk/making/index.htm ...and here's some more you haven't seen, new photos from Chicago violin maker (and former professional photographer) Michael Darnton, a guy who happily shares what he knows on another forum I lurk at. Here's the page -- http://www.darntonviolins.com/ethan/Ethan'sViola.html (and yeah, I know it's a viola. Didn't want to mention that in the subject line or people would laugh...) ++++ End of thread 50616 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50617 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130856 (thread 50617) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-17 19:16:56 Subject: the word is planing Hi Scott--- I remembered this test as being Stanley-less, and it seems to be, as well as void of every classic plane's blade. IINM, and I looked at it again, it's also a little confusing. Not to say it ain't fun, it is, and chock-full of cool insights (and photomicrographs). Steve Knight's irons compare favorably to the very best in the test. It'd be nice to get some advocates of various blades together to compete in a side-by-side kind of test, that'd be my ideal, but I especially want to see how the plane blades of the golden age stack up. I have a several old planes with very nice irons-- Butcher, Buck, Marples and Ward come immediately to mind....I've had good luck with virtually every Stanley, Sargent and Ohio blade---there are some exceptions, I guess, but too few to mention. I'd love to see some stats on these old reliables. best to all galoots; gAM in seattle I'd love to see a side by side test on this, with original Stanleys and Ohios up against the designer blades. --- Scott Quesnelle wrote: > This has been done, take a look at Brent Beach's excellent site. It > will have you lusting for an Intel QX3 to play with. > > http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/overview.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130864 (thread 50617) ---- From: "Andrew F in Australia" Date: 2004-03-18 12:39:02 Subject: re: the word is planing Gary asks if: I'd love to see a side by side test on this, with original Stanleys and Ohios up against the designer blades. Ask and ye shall receive, as my father used to say: http://host65.ipowerweb.com/~traditi2/forum/viewtopic.php?t=242 Exotic vs current Stanley/Record vs Stanley Sweetheart blade. Cheers & goodnight from sunny Australia (midnight local time) Andrew ---- Start of Message 130881 (thread 50617) ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-03-18 13:32:53 Subject: re: the word is planing Roger (thanks Andrew)---- That's more like it---I see the English Stanley is less than half as good as the SW, which is about half as good as the Shepherd, which is in the same league with but not near as good as the ASW. So to speak. It's a shame he didn't test the Australian irons, ey? I have a nice Ozzie in regular use in a #4. And did you get your ASW blade back, Andrew? You wouldn't've if I'd been the one testing. Interesting that Roger describes the SW Stanley as laminated, when it mikes the same as the modern UK blade. I've heard of laminated blades in Stanley bench planes, but haven't seen any that I know of---the Ohio bench planes have laminated irons which are tapered, and obviously stacked up. Anyway, this test is getting there, but the SW era is long past the golden age of planing vitality, and we should be thankful that people like to collect the stuff, and will trade for those earlier jewels... and I thank you; GAM in Seattle It doesn't 'mean' anything; it's like "Rama-Lama-Ding-Dong" or "Give Peace A Chance." Homer Simpson --- Andrew F in Australia wrote: Gary asks if: I'd love to see a side by side test on this, with original Stanleys and Ohios up against the designer blades. Ask and ye shall receive, as my father used to say: http://host65.ipowerweb.com/~traditi2/forum/viewtopic.php?t=242 Exotic vs current Stanley/Record vs Stanley Sweetheart blade. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130890 (thread 50617) ---- From: "Matt Mulka" Date: 2004-03-18 21:16:45 Subject: Re: the word is planing My two pence worth.... I experienced this problem after about 10 strokes one time. I took blade out and realized what happened. The chip breaker wasn't tightened enough to keep from moving under pressure from planing. I also realized that the wax I was using to keep the irons from rusting was actually hurting my effort to use the plane so that was the last time I waxed the area where the chip breaker mates with the iron (The outline of surface rust from where the chip breaker keeps the iron from the air is quite helpful to know whereabouts to stop waxing.) As I started to look closer I also noted that my various chipbreakers where not the exact same shape. As if some chipbreakers had been overly tightened to the blade (for decades??) and straightened out somewhat. My theory on this is that the single screw holding the chip breaker to the iron doesn't hold it perfectly in place, especially when planing hardwoods that offer lots of resistance for extended periods. And when you're removing .001" per stroke, it doesn't take much slipping to not be taking one at all. When you think about it, the adjuster doesn't adjust the blade, it adjusts the chip breaker which moves the iron with it. If you overtighten the lever cap (I've found) it's possible to move the chip breaker but not the the iron and end up with the chip breaker sliding over the edge of the iron. At the opposite end of spectrum the lever cap is too loose and you end up with chatter. The key is to tighten the lever cap just short of overly difficult to adjust. I haven't noticed if anyone has commented about this problem with wedges irons in wooden planes, maybe that is a better method to hold them in place? Gee, maybe I could base a doctoral thesis on this post..... Matt Mulka Who has 2 coats of shellac on his bookcase so far. ++++ End of thread 50617 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50618 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130857 (thread 50618) ---- From: "Eric Coyle " Date: 2004-03-18 07:33:13 Subject: wood Ident website here's a site that should be added to the bookmarks. Begging forgiveness if this shoulda been posted before http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/archives/forestry/hough/index.html Eric in Calgary ---- Start of Message 130863 (thread 50618) ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-03-18 07:24:57 Subject: Re: wood Ident website > here's a site that should be added to the bookmarks. Great site, Eric. The only problem I see is the 'local' assumption that there's a one-to-one mapping between the scientific name and the common name used in woodshops around the world. Nevertheless, very useful. > Begging forgiveness if this shoulda been posted before It's likely that pretty much everything has been posted before. If that were the criterion, all lists would dwindle to nothing. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 130911 (thread 50618) ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 2004-03-19 09:42:32 Subject: Re: wood Ident website At 07:33 AM 3/18/2004 +0000, Eric Coyle wrote: >here's a site that should be added to the bookmarks. > >Begging forgiveness if this shoulda been posted before > >http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/archives/forestry/hough/index.html You can still buy the fourteen volume set - only $23,000! ++++ End of thread 50618 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50619 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130862 (thread 50619) ---- From: "Tony Zaffuto" Date: 2004-03-18 07:12:13 Subject: my drawer height question & Oldtools epiphany Let me thank all of you who offered advice/assistance to my question concerning formulas for height-graduated drawers (did I say that right?). With posing a genuine question on this board, one gets to understand what this board really is, and the help available from its members. We all know there are several other forums out there, and for one reason or another, somehow people seem to gravitate mainly to one, even though they may lurk on some of the others. With Oldtools, initially I didn't like not being able to use HTML, however, after a few months, there is something comforting about it, almost a sense that this is the "real McCoy", and not a spit polished, chrome plated and newly painted imitation--sort of like that old #4 I always reach for first. Anyhow, thanks to all of you. As an aside, as I am involved in several businesses, and have some heat treat equipment, should any of you want to experiment with making your own plane blades, etc., I'll run some small batches for you--no cost except for return postage. I've played around with some A2 for my blades, and have had some decent results. I ain't Ron Hock, but then again my cost is practically zip! Finally, about this Natalie so many of you talked about yesterday--I live in the part of Pennsylvania where the woodchuck is called a groundhog and is highly revered! This past Feb. 2 eve. , someone swooped into Punxsutawney (some 15 miles south of me) and performed some weird tail-swinging ritual on the beast, leaving it dazed, confused and smiling. What made it really weird was that the person was identified as appearing to be almost female in appearance, dressed in a flight suit, and the groundhog was female. I don't want to suggest anything here, but quite frankly, what two people to between themselves is up to them, but man and beast? ++++ End of thread 50619 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50620 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130868 (thread 50620) ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-03-18 14:35:12 Subject: Mortice Gauge Marking Points Just got a Disston and Morse mortice gauge nearly identical to the Stanley #77 (or whichever is the one with the little target looking thing on the side). The scribing points are worn to little nubs and the brass of the bars have been incised a bit from filing of the points. I'm thinkin along the lines of drilling out points and replacing them in order to use the gauge. Anyone done this, or know of a place on the web to get info on doing it. It is in otherwise very nice shape. ---- Start of Message 130893 (thread 50620) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-03-19 07:30:45 Subject: RE: Mortice Gauge Marking Points : -----Original Message----- : From: Jerry Palmer [mailto:jerrypalmer82@h...] : Sent: 18 March 2004 14:35 : To: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] Mortice Gauge Marking Points :=20 :=20 : Just got a Disston and Morse mortice gauge nearly identical=20 : to the Stanley #77 (or whichever is the one with the little=20 : target looking thing on the side). The scribing points are=20 : worn to little nubs and the brass of the bars have been=20 : incised a bit from filing of the points. I'm thinkin along=20 : the lines of drilling out points and replacing them in order=20 : to use the gauge. I seem to recall that the gauge collectors report that the points are = sometimes soft-soldered in place. Would it be worth trying a bit of heat = before trying to drill them out? Jeff --=20 Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net=20 ++++ End of thread 50620 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50621 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130870 (thread 50621) ---- From: Roger Date: 2004-03-18 08:56:45 Subject: FS/FT Langdon Miter(mitre)Box parts I know there are some folks who need some of these parts out there. A broken foot, missing screw, the little rollers in the saw guides, stock guides, etc. Let me know what you want off of it and I'll send it on to you. Then send me something back: a dollar bill, a rusty perfect handle screwdriver, a lever cap screw for a stanley spokeshave, a rusty drill bit...just no Sheldon planes please :-P . Act quick 'cause somebody already spoke for the swing lock mechanism. Help me help you get your old Langdon back in shape! Of course all this only applies to those who have actually posted a Bio. Again, the front saw guide is TOAST. I pulled all the parts I needed from it already but there are plenty more that folks might need. I took the original stock guides from it and put in thier place a set I bought from Stan Faulin years ago (he sells these replacements for $20 http://www.tooltrip.com/tooltrip8/index.htm). Here are some pictures: http://www.auburn.edu/~birkhrd/Woodworking&Tools/Miterbox%20the%20good.jpg http://www.auburn.edu/~birkhrd/Woodworking&Tools/Miterbox%20the%20bad.jpg http://www.auburn.edu/~birkhrd/Woodworking&Tools/Miterbox%20the%20ugly.jpg Roger Birkhead in AL ++++ End of thread 50621 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50622 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130871 (thread 50622) ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-03-18 07:08:04 Subject: Looking for... - A #78 depth stop. - A (user condition) #98 or #99. Anyone have either of these they'd be willing to part with (or is that, "...with which to part"?) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130873 (thread 50622) ---- From: Timothy Collins Date: 2004-03-18 11:40:38 Subject: Re: Looking for... I have an extra #78 depth stop (still attached to an extra, fenceless 78 that I don't need. Also have a nicker attached to same plane and an extra blade--My "new" 78 has all the parts and is in better shape) tim Please respond to Michael Campbell To: "oldtools" cc: Subject: [oldtools] Looking for... - A #78 depth stop. - A (user condition) #98 or #99. Anyone have either of these they'd be willing to part with (or is that, "...with which to part"?) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 50622 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50623 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130879 (thread 50623) ---- From: brian_welch@h... Date: 2004-03-18 13:57:28 Subject: Today's Boston Globe--home workshops and BENCH PLANS! There's a nice series of articles about home workshops in today's Boston Globe. The online version http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/athome/ has bench plans, links to Lie-Nielson and Lee Valley and tips about the tools you need, including handsaws (instead of tailed versions) and planes. The bench is not a dream bench, but is nicer than the one I am currently using! Nice surprise in my morning paper. Brian Welch Worcester, MA ++++ End of thread 50623 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50624 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130884 (thread 50624) ---- From: "Roger Birkhead" Date: 2004-03-18 17:26:41 Subject: Re: FS/FT Langdon Miter (mitre)Box parts Just wanted to let folks know that the stock guides have been snapped up, so have the upper saw guides, and the angle adjust locking mechanism. Who needs the bed, the nameplate, the feet or some really odd size screws (one of the set screws on the swinging fence part was a 3/8"-20 NS, DAMHIKT...just say thank goodness for McMaster-Carr)? Roger Birkhead >>> Roger 03/18/04 8:56 AM >>> I know there are some folks who need some of these parts out there. A broken foot, missing screw, the little rollers in the saw guides, stock guides, etc. Let me know what you want off of it and I'll send it on to you. Then send me something back: a dollar bill, a rusty perfect handle screwdriver, a lever cap screw for a stanley spokeshave, a rusty drill bit...just no Sheldon planes please :-P . Act quick 'cause somebody already spoke for the swing lock mechanism. Help me help you get your old Langdon back in shape! Of course all this only applies to those who have actually posted a Bio. Again, the front saw guide is TOAST. I pulled all the parts I needed from it already but there are plenty more that folks might need. I took the original stock guides from it and put in thier place a set I bought from Stan Faulin years ago (he sells these replacements for $20 http://www.tooltrip.com/tooltrip8/index.htm). Here are some pictures: http://www.auburn.edu/~birkhrd/Woodworking&Tools/Miterbox%20the%20good.jpg http://www.auburn.edu/~birkhrd/Woodworking&Tools/Miterbox%20the%20bad.jpg http://www.auburn.edu/~birkhrd/Woodworking&Tools/Miterbox%20the%20ugly.jpg Roger Birkhead in AL ++++ End of thread 50624 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50625 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130885 (thread 50625) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-18 14:29:31 Subject: FS Record 5 1/2 plane. I have finally come to the conclusion that I just can't keep all of the nice stuff I have accumulated over the years. I have a VERY nice Record 5 1/2 in its original shabby, taped up box, along with the original instructions. I have decided to sell it. I would prefer a galoot to buy it, but if that doesn't work out it can go to the bay when I get around to it. There is some rust showing around the upper areas of the blade and chip breaker. A very small ding in both the tote and the knob. Two chips in the japanning near the front of the plane. I would call the japanning 99%. I doubt that you will find another one as nice as this. I have never flattened the bottom. The plane has been used just as it came out of the box more than 20 years ago. I am the only owner this plane has had. Take a look at it at: http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/PhotoAlbum57.html Oldtools terms. $80.00 plus whatever the postage is, provided I recognize your name. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ++++ End of thread 50625 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50626 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130888 (thread 50626) ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-03-18 18:42:04 Subject: Larry Marshall Hey, Larry Marshall! Ping me. The addy I have bounces. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ++++ End of thread 50626 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50627 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130894 (thread 50627) ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-03-19 09:55:59 Subject: Stanley 358 miter box info Can any of the congregation direvt me to a site with pictures or detailed drawings of this box. I accuired one cheaply win bice shape except for the top strap between the guides. This is missing and I need to know what it looks like before I try to make something to let me use the box. I can't get clear enough detail from Stan Faulins site so I was hoping some one knew of another. Or if any of you have an extra one to sell or trade that would work too. Steve in Indy Where we had snow,rain, high winds and sunshine in one afternoon. Typical March day here. ++++ End of thread 50627 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50628 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130899 (thread 50628) ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-03-19 05:03:40 Subject: It's all about learning, was RE: [oldtools] It's getting there. Well, live and learn. I had one of those moments last night. I posted a picture a couple days ago of a table I've been working on. http://www.umich.edu/~amidkiff/projects/tvtable/sidewithtop.jpg My original idea was to create a shelf that would rest on the battens attached to the bottom rails of the closed ends and hanging over the rails along the open sides. I glued up the shelf, notched the corner to fit around the legs and then discovered that there's no possible way to fit it inside the base. No matter how I twist or manipulate it, it just won't fit. Argh! So, it looks like I have two options: 1. narrow the shelf to fit in between the legs or 2. remove the rails along the open sides. Number 1 is a problem for a couple of reasons. One is because the rails are the site of my biggest mistake. One rail is set flush with the inside edge of the legs, the other is not. I also used pine for these since I thought they'd be covered up by the shelf. There's also an extra mortise in the one leg where I cut one leg wrong and one right which led to the one rail not being flush with the inside. So, I'm not thrilled to have the rails exposed. Number 2 seems to me to be the best solution. I'll cut off the rails, put in a central cross brace dovetailed into the battens flush with the bottom of the shelf, just to give the extra lateral strength. The problem is with the legs. Then I'll have cut-off tenons, one on each of three of the legs and two on the mistake. My possible solution is to veneer the inside of each leg with maple veneer. I've not used it before so I have no idea how the edges would look. Does this sound reasonable? Anyone have any other ideas? AAAndrew Living and learning constantly through my imperfections in Durham, North Carolina. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 130900 (thread 50628) ---- From: "Croxton Gordon" Date: 2004-03-19 08:29:03 Subject: Re: It's all about learning, was RE: [oldtools] It's getting there. I've lived at this address. Could you make the shelf in two pieces? Rip the shelf down the middle. Insert the pieces one at a time. You could leave a gap in the center ,and tell everyone you planned it that way to allow for wood expansion (which you probably should). Ernie Conover says something like *There are no mistakes, only design opportunities.* Cheers, Croxton on Virginia's Eastern Shore Andrew wrote: > I've been working on. > http://www.umich.edu/~amidkiff/projects/tvtable/sidewithtop.jpg > > My original idea was to create a shelf that would rest > on the battens attached to the bottom rails of the > closed ends and hanging over the rails along the open > sides. I glued up the shelf, notched the corner to fit > around the legs and then discovered that there's no > possible way to fit it inside the base. No matter how > I twist or manipulate it, it just won't fit. Argh! ---- Start of Message 130901 (thread 50628) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-19 08:29:31 Subject: Re: It's all about learning, was RE: [oldtools] It's getting there. Hmmm...couple more options that <.I.> would try Glue a strip inside your rails that will allow your shelf to sit iside/top flush. ___________________ | | | | | |____________________ | | | |_____|__| Or Cut the front of your shelf to fit inside the inside of your front legs and then glue on a hardwood cap after the shelf is in place. _______________________________ | | |__ __| |________________________| ___| |__ | | | | Hope this helps. If not, I'm sure you'll let me know... Regards Jonathan >http://www.umich.edu/~amidkiff/projects/tvtable/sidewithtop.jpg > >My original idea was to create a shelf that would rest >on the battens attached to the bottom rails of the >closed ends and hanging over the rails along the open >sides. I glued up the shelf, notched the corner to fit >around the legs and then discovered that there's no >possible way to fit it inside the base. No matter how >I twist or manipulate it, it just won't fit. Argh! > ---- Start of Message 130902 (thread 50628) ---- From: "Daniel E.L. Yurwit" Date: 2004-03-19 08:33:08 Subject: Re: It's all about learning, was RE: [oldtools] It's getting there. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Midkiff" Subject: It's all about learning, was RE: [oldtools] It's getting there. > Well, live and learn. I had one of those moments last > night. I posted a picture a couple days ago of a table > I've been working on. > http://www.umich.edu/~amidkiff/projects/tvtable/sidewithtop.jpg > I glued up the shelf, notched the corner to fit > around the legs and then discovered that there's no > possible way to fit it inside the base. Andrew, Sounds like something I would do---only my table would not have been as nice to start with. One idea from a collector/wood butcher, not fine woodworker: cut the shelf in half (from open end to open end), joint the two halves at the cut, then use a spline to re-join them once they are inserted into the table. You might make the spline of the darker (stained?)wood you used for the sides panels, and then it becomes a decorative element. (Or not!) Just my $ .02 Dan, in NJ under a beautiful Spring snowfall. ---- Start of Message 130907 (thread 50628) ---- From: Michael Lindgren Date: 2004-03-19 08:23:25 Subject: Re: It's all about learning, was RE: [oldtools] It's getting there. On Fri, 19 Mar 2004, Andrew Midkiff wrote: > Well, live and learn. I had one of those moments last > night. > > My original idea was to create a shelf that would rest > on the battens attached to the bottom rails of the > closed ends and hanging over the rails along the open > sides. I glued up the shelf, notched the corner to fit > around the legs and then discovered that there's no > possible way to fit it inside the base. No matter how > I twist or manipulate it, it just won't fit. Argh! I am not sure I understand all the descriptions that Andrew had in his post about his problem, but have a couple suggestions. 1) cut off the end on the side that has the inset rail, and once it is in place, put a filler strip so the insides are flush with the inside of the front legs. Added benefit of your end cd/dvd not getting trapped behind the leg. Not very pretty though. 2) Rip the shelf in half from side to side - you might be able to feed each half in from below. This does not alter the shelf strength much if it works(assuming that grain runs from side to side). This would be largely invisible to the casual eye, and is probably the easiest. 3) Forget the shelf idea and build a drawer. Make it flush with the front legs, and put a lower lip on it that covers the front rail. Will look nice, cover all interior errors, and allows easier access to stuff at the rear. Good Luck, Mike Lindgren ---- Start of Message 130912 (thread 50628) ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-03-19 08:50:54 Subject: Re: It's all about learning, was RE: [oldtools] It's getting there. AAAndrew said: > just to give the extra lateral strength. The problem > is with the legs. Then I'll have cut-off tenons, one > on each of three of the legs and two on the mistake. Andrew, You misunderstand. Those would not be "cut-off tenons" or "mistakes". They would be "unusual artistic design features". As a matter of fact, I am currently experimenting with unusual artistic design features on the feet of a trestle table where two tenons are shorter (across the grain) than their mortises. Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ---- Start of Message 130917 (thread 50628) ---- From: hb Date: 2004-03-19 08:10:23 Subject: Re: It's all about learning, was RE: [oldtools] It's getting there. I'd go with rip cutting the shelf in half, jointing the cut edge, and then doing your glue up once the shelf is within the frame of the table. The only problem will be that the saw kerf and subsequent jointing will change the dimension of the shelf a bit. However, once that joint is scraped or sanded, it'll be one of those mistakes that only you can see. Good Luck. HB in Reading ,PA It snowed AGAIN!!?? That's like 10 inches (25.4 cm , jeff) for the month of March. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 50628 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50629 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130903 (thread 50629) ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-03-19 13:34:31 Subject: Stones Of all modern appliances, I regard the modern oilstones as the most beneficial to woodworkers of the present time. In my youth we did not, of course, realise it, but now I see how very much we were handicapped by the poor class of stones then available. A few men were the possessors of a "Turkey"; the only other variety known to us was the "Charnley Forest". Both were natural products, for a manufactured stone at that time had not been heard of. The Turkey, a cream and brown mottled stone of beautiful smooth texture, can still hold its own, and it may safely be predicted that, in the rare instances where pieces still remain, they will, by virtue of their merit, be handed down for use by succeeding generations. I never saw a full-sized Turkey stone without minute cracks and fissures. Apparently it was obtained from the natural rock with difficulty; the sides were uneven, and we assumed that the producers were content with attaining one flat side. Turkey stones absolutely needed the protection of a wooden case, imbedded in which they were good for lifelong use. But the owners were careful of them, lest they should fall and be shattered. All my father's men used the "Charnley Forest", a natural British stone resembling slate, and I have vivid memories of the incessant rubbing that was necessary before a keen edge on the tool could be obtained on them. They varied slightly in quality, but even the very best were dreadfully slow; and all demanded an abnormal amount of labour, to lighten which we sometimes applied fine emery powder to the surface. This quickened the process, but left a raw and unsatisfactory edge to the tool. Recourse to the grindstone was had immediately the sharpening bevel became wide. In the year 1889 the "Washita". An imported stone, appeared on the English market, and was hailed with delight by all woodworkers , who straightway discarded their "Charnley Forests" for ever. One old stone, that had till then been considered of supreme merit and priceless value, was then hawked round the workshop where I was serving a term of apprenticeship, and failed to find a purchaser at the proffered price of sixpence. On my weekend visits home, I carried a new stone to show my brother, who insisted on keeping it. It created a minor sensation in my father's workshop, where its undreamed of quality of sharpening captivated all my father's men, each of whom speedily obtained one. Being a natural stone, it varies in quality. If quick cutting is required to ordinary carpenters' tools a coarse grained one should be selected, but for carving tools a fine texture is preferable. Since that time, two manufactured stones have appeared. The "Indiana" and the "Carborundum". Each is made in three grades, fine, medium, and coarse, and each has recognised valuable qualities. Experience of work at the bench. Inclines me to favour the fine "Indiana" as a stone of a texture on which a smooth keen edge can be obtained. But for ordinary outdoor carpentry I would prefer the medium. Walter Rose "The Village Carpenter" 1937 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 130910 (thread 50629) ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 2004-03-19 09:36:34 Subject: Re: Stones Hi, Richard and Others "Turkey" fits the description of Belgian stones, known there as "coticule". They are always used with water rather than oil and were used to hone straight razors. Does anyone know if they are (geologically) the same as Turkey? Where did Turkey stones originate? I gather that the quarries for coticule have about run out now, but I have several of the stones and treasure them. By the way, I also have what is, apparently, a Charnley forest stone that I inherited. I've never used it but keep it around mostly because it is in such a pretty mahogany box. Trevor ---- Start of Message 130919 (thread 50629) ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-03-19 11:56:42 Subject: Re: Stones Hi Trevor & All, I can't answer Trevors other questions, but I do know that Turkey stones originated from (drum roll please) Turkey! Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 130959 (thread 50629) ---- From: "Jordan, Wolfgang" Date: 2004-03-22 08:49:56 Subject: RE: Stones Trevor Robinson: > I gather that the quarries for coticule have about run out now, but I have several of the >stones and treasure them. This applies only to the yellow stone. Some years ago they have found a blue variety which is almost as good. Wolfgang ++++ End of thread 50629 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50630 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130904 (thread 50630) ---- From: "Jon Endres, PE" Date: 2004-03-19 08:45:21 Subject: Keen Kutter saws? Can anybody direct me to a site about Keen Kutter handsaws? I saw a nice one (a #38) in a junk shop masquerading as a tool store, but have no idea if the price the guy was asking was reasonable or not. It was nice and straight, good etch, good handle, fairly wide blade, looked like a crosscut saw. Was the only tool in the entire place worth buying. I passed on two perfect handle screwdrivers becuase one was missing most of its tip, and the other was a model of heavy rust pitting and cracked handle - for $1 each, he should have given them to me. Jon Endres, PE West Mountain Engineering ++++ End of thread 50630 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 50631 ++++ ---- Start of Message 130908 (thread 50631) ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-03-19 09:25:01 Subject: Whatsit?? Hello GG's Whazzat? http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=400 regards jonathan ---- Start of Message 130909 (thread 50631) ---- From: "Ed O'Riordan" Date: 2004-03-19 09:33:42 Subject: RE: Whatsit?? Looks like a dedicated washer cutter for cutting rather large washers. Ed O' -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Peck [mailto:jpeck@m...] Whazzat? http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=400 ---- Start of Message 130915 (thread 50631) ---- From: "Sanford Moss" Date: 2004-03-19 10:52:13 Subject: RE: Whatsit?? Jonathan wrote: > >Whazzat? >http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=400 > This looks to be a nice example of Isaac W. Heysinger's patented washer cutter, dated Oct 16, 1883. It's a real nice one to start a collection with, or bring some serious bucks (for a washer cutter) from a collector. Sandy. In Massachusetts where it is snowing like H*ll. _________________________________________________________________ Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage. Multiple plans available. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ ---- Start of Message 133171 (thread 50631) ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 2004-05-07 19:09:15 Subject: Re: Whatsit?? At 07:01 PM 5/7/04, cpmueller@c... wrote: >Galooterati, > >So many whatsits, so little time. Now that I can post some pictures of >puzzling planes, let me offer this one up. This plane looks like a coffin >smoother but one side of the base is straight, not curved. The straight >side has the mouth let in so the iron can snug up against some work but >it's not like a rabbet plane. And no nicker either. > >Find the pix here, all the way at the >end: http://home.comcast.net/~cpmueller/wsb/html/view.cgi-photos.html-.html > >There are some other puzzling things about it too. Like what is "shear >steel?" > >I'd like to know what this tool is/was used for. Can anyone please help? Wow..that's a find. Taylor & Son worked 1843-51. Rated Uncommon in Goodman's. Looks to be some sort of inside rabbet plane. Was probably for a special job that someone needed to do. That iron and signed cap are great! Tony Olde River Hard Goods 350 West Catawissa Street Nesquehoning PA 18240 570-669-9421 The best old tool store in Pennsylvania! http://www.oldetoolshop.com ---- Start of Message 133179 (thread 50631) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 2004-05-08 03:28:14 Subject: Re: Whatsit?? Pete Mueller asked: >>So many whatsits, so little time. Now that I can post some >>pictures of puzzling planes, let me offer this one up. This plane >>looks like a coffin smoother but one side of the base is straight, >>not curved. The straight side has the mouth let in so the iron can >>snug up against some work but it's not like a rabbet plane. And no >>nicker either. >> >>Find the pix here, all the way at the end: >>http://home.comcast.net/~cpmueller/wsb/html/view.cgi-photos.html-.html >> >>There are some other puzzling things about it too. Like what is >>"shear steel?" >> >>I'd like to know what this tool is/was used for. Can anyone please help? Tony Seo replied: >Wow..that's a find. Taylor & Son worked 1843-51. Rated Uncommon in >Goodman's. Looks to be some sort of inside rabbet plane. Was >probably for a special job that someone needed to do. That iron and >signed cap are great! Very unusual plane - especially with one straight and one curved cheek. It could be viewed as a smooth sized badger plane, but that is a bit problematic since the name, badger, typically implies a toted plane of jack size. Or, it might be thought of as a "Smooth [size] Raising Plane" (so named in many 19th century British plane maker's price lists), though these usually had a fence and, possibly, a nicker and/or depth stop. Take your pick? :-) With reference to the James Cam cap iron, the usual understanding is that James Cam first appeared as a file maker in a 1787 directory listing. Then in a partnership of Cam & Brown, edge tool makers, at 52 Norfolk Street, in 1797. By 1817, the firm was, once again, listed as James Cam, Norfolk Street, continuing to about 1837. However, information provided by Bill Kasper some time back tends to present some difficulty with this narrative. Specifically, he pointed out some Sheffield buria