++++ Start of thread 28006 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65001 (thread 28006) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-07-12 14:31:00 Subject: #4 1/2 - a better smoother than #4? I keep reading references that the 4 1/2 is the "killer-smoother" of the Bailey family. Would any multi-tool experienced gallot comment on this. Collector's can certainly compare G++ type 14 Stanley #4 against G++ type 15 Stanley #4 1/2. Then there#s #604 Vs #604 1/2 We'll just have to wait for the LN comparison (You do have one on order, don't you Mr. Gunterman?) In the meantime: ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL (i.e. condition, sharpness, setup, tuning...) Is a #4 1/2 a better performing smoother than a #4? If there's no clear cut answer (is there ever...) what are the circumstances that affect the choice? BugBear. ---- Start of Message 65008 (thread 28006) ---- From: "Russ Ellsworth" Date: 1999-07-12 15:18:00 Subject: Re: #4 1/2 - a better smoother than #4? Paul, FWIW, I just tuned up my first new/old #4 1/2, added a Hock blade sharpened as well as I am able, and set all to take wispies. My best smoother before this was my #4 of about the same vintage, old but not ancient. IMHO the 4 1/2 is easier to use as a smoother because of it's greater mass, wider sole and just a more solid feel. Of course this comparison comes from a relative edge of the end of the porch sitter. Tried the comparison on both Maple and old white pine. My LN is not yet on order! Russ Ellsworth Boise, Idaho Subject: #4 1/2 - a better smoother than #4? > I keep reading references that the 4 1/2 is the > "killer-smoother" of the Bailey family. > SNIP > Is a #4 1/2 a better performing smoother than a #4? > > If there's no clear cut answer (is there ever...) what > are the circumstances that affect the choice? > > BugBear. > > -- > > ---- Start of Message 65009 (thread 28006) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 1999-07-12 15:34:00 Subject: Re: #4 1/2 - a better smoother than #4? Paul Womack wrote: > [...] >Is a #4 1/2 a better performing smoother than a #4? I certainly prefer my (WWII-era) 4.5. I like the the extra heft and my 4.5 is rapidly becoming my favorite plane (certainly among smoothers)[*] >If there's no clear cut answer (is there ever...) what >are the circumstances that affect the choice? A second order effect here: I've been having a lot of trouble getting thicker (e.g. Hock) blades to fit in my 4s --especially the older ones. In short I only got the iron to fit in one of my 4s (not the one I had intended to use it on) and even in that case it just barely fit. Note, this is not really a complaint; the Hock's I put in my 3, 4.5 and 5 (all I've tried so far beside the 4) have all worked fine --and have been all they were meant to be. It's just that with my 4s the fit has been too snug (I've not tried filing the mouth, etc). Needless to say, YMMV. Nichael [* In fact, I like my 4.5 so much I've started looking around for a 5.5. (The sad tale here is that I found a nice one over on that e-place. I had the winning bid of $36 --which seemed reasonable-- up to 90 seconds before closing when some sl**z*-b*g pulled the canonical e-bay last minute slip-in, driving the price up a buck at a time, finally beating my max [$50] with less than 20 sec to go. I suppose the silver lining here is that this has finally made me swear off the place. Oh well, maybe I'll have better luck at Crane's this weekend... )] ---- Start of Message 65042 (thread 28006) ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1999-07-13 07:35:00 Subject: Re: #4 1/2 - a better smoother than #4? Having just sharpened and tuned a flock of 4's and a brace of 4 1/2s, and tested each my opinion would be that neither is 'best' As ever 'it all depends' If you are working in extravagent materail like leadwood, ebony, maybe even hardened oak, then pushing a 4 1/2 will be harder work than a 4. But if set for a transparent shaving and you're trimming a 1 1/2 edge to size, merely using the width with a slight camber will make the work easier. Then again, flattening a table top may be better with the fewer passes of a straight wide blade (remove the corners on an oilstone though) The extra mass may give a better feel but if you're sizing narrow stock all day you may not want to move all that extra weight. and so the list goes on. The 'best' tool for any job is one that is sharp, set up, and that *you* feel comfortable with. - oh, and that is fitted to purpose. Whilst I have 2 or 3 planes that are kept for final finishing, I'm pretty happy to use any other that is sharp for almost anything else. - and the finishers are like that merely to keep them sharp, longer. Happy fence-sitting Richard Wilson Yorkshireman soon to be in Buckinghamshire Paul Womack wrote: > I keep reading references that the 4 1/2 is the > "killer-smoother" of the Bailey family. > > Would any multi-tool experienced gallot comment on this. > Collector's can certainly compare G++ type 14 Stanley > #4 against G++ type 15 Stanley #4 1/2. > > Then there#s #604 Vs #604 1/2 > > We'll just have to wait for the LN comparison (You do > have one on order, don't you Mr. Gunterman?) > > In the meantime: > > ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL (i.e. condition, sharpness, > setup, tuning...) > > Is a #4 1/2 a better performing smoother than a #4? > > If there's no clear cut answer (is there ever...) what > are the circumstances that affect the choice? > > BugBear. > > -- ---- Start of Message 65052 (thread 28006) ---- From: "Jim Weaver" Date: 1999-07-13 14:12:00 Subject: Re: #4 1/2 - a better smoother than #4? I'm not a collector but have several user planes. I do have a 4 and a 4 1/2. The 4 1/2 is much heavier than the 4 and I find that it wears me out much sooner than the 4. I can't detect a noticeable difference in quality of the cut and now rarely opt to use the 4 1/2. In fact, I may even sell it because I use it so rarely. Jim Weaver Date sent: Mon, 12 Jul 99 15:37:02 BST From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) To: OLDTOOLS@l... Subject: #4 1/2 - a better smoother than #4? I keep reading references that the 4 1/2 is the "killer-smoother" of the Bailey family. Would any multi-tool experienced gallot comment on this. Collector's can certainly compare G++ type 14 Stanley #4 against G++ type 15 Stanley #4 1/2. Then there#s #604 Vs #604 1/2 We'll just have to wait for the LN comparison (You do have one on order, don't you Mr. Gunterman?) In the meantime: ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL (i.e. condition, sharpness, setup, tuning...) Is a #4 1/2 a better performing smoother than a #4? If there's no clear cut answer (is there ever...) what are the circumstances that affect the choice? BugBear. ++++ End of thread 28006 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28007 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65002 (thread 28007) ---- From: John Lederer Date: 1999-07-12 14:29:00 Subject: What is it? I picked up a tool at a junk shop yesterday that has me flummoxed. It is about the size of a #5. The body is cast iron, cast in the shape of a hollow box beam. At the top of the casting there are two small flanges running the length of the casting. One is just cast, the other has been machined to provide a little rail about 1/8"x1/4" the length of the casting. The two sides and bottom of the casting are also machined. The bottom of the casting has a deep relief portion notched into it running about 75% of the total length of the casting. Into this relief, attached by bolts is a thick rectangular plate perhaps 3/8-1/2" thick, the width of the casting, and as long as the relief with what looks like a bastard pattern coarse file surface to it. The handles are like those on a plane, but appear to be maple or fruitwood. It is well made. It appears to be made to move back and forth with precision in some sort of holder. Anybody got a clue? The only marking is on the side of the rectangullar plate which says "Disston U.S.A." ---- Start of Message 65832 (thread 28007) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-08-01 14:43:00 Subject: Re: what is it? Steve points us to: >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=136812146 It's a hollow auger or tenon cutter, used for putting the dowel-like tenons on the end of chair rungs, wheel spokes, and the like. I've never seen a "dedicated" one like this, integral to the brace that is used to turn it. More usually such a tool has a obelisk-shaped tang for use in a regular bit brace. Note also that this is capable of infinite adjustment by the threaded screw shown in the second picture down, probably from about 1/4" to about 1". As the knurled nut is turned, one side moves out or in at twice the rate of the other side, leaving the tenon centered on the vertical shaft of the brace. Or something like that. Neat looking gadget. Tom Holloway, wondering what current List policy is on posting about e$ay items while bidding is still active. My recollection is that we sorta agreed back when this marketing system emerged, not to post such queries and comments until the bidding was closed. The reasoning seemed to be that 1) it avoids the appearance of promoting sales through adding hype, and 2) it keeps the competition "cleaner" by not attracting attention to an item some of our colleagues might already have bids in for. ---- Start of Message 65836 (thread 28007) ---- From: "George Langford, Sc.D." Date: 1999-08-01 15:46:00 Subject: Re: what is it? Hallo sharp-eyed Galoots ! Steve Knight wonders: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=136812146 At first all I could think was: "So _that's_ a fahkeezit !" but then I actually started to think a little. Looks like a bolt threader to me - but the business end may be put together all wrong. Best regards, George Langford, getting set to stay out of the hot sun in SE PA. amenex@a... http://www.amenex.com/georgesbasement/ ---- Start of Message 65837 (thread 28007) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-08-01 22:57:00 Subject: Re: what is it? On Sun, 1 Aug 1999 10:43:02 -0400, you wrote: >Steve points us to: > >>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=136812146 > > It's a hollow auger or tenon cutter, used for putting the >dowel-like tenons on the end of chair rungs, wheel spokes, and the like. >I've never seen a "dedicated" one like this, integral to the brace that is >used to turn it. More usually such a tool has a obelisk-shaped tang for >use in a regular bit brace. Note also that this is capable of infinite >adjustment by the threaded screw shown in the second picture down, probably >from about 1/4" to about 1". As the knurled nut is turned, one side moves >out or in at twice the rate of the other side, leaving the tenon centered >on the vertical shaft of the brace. Or something like that. I could use it. too bad I don't have the money. >wondering what current List policy is on posting about e$ay items while >bidding is still active. My recollection is that we sorta agreed back when >this marketing system emerged, not to post such queries and comments until >the bidding was closed. The reasoning seemed to be that 1) it avoids the >appearance of promoting sales through adding hype, and 2) it keeps the >competition "cleaner" by not attracting attention to an item some of our >colleagues might already have bids in for. I though about it but since I was not going to bid did not think about other's bidding on it. Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ---- Start of Message 65838 (thread 28007) ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 1999-08-01 20:32:00 Subject: Re: what is it? Hi, All I have not looked at the Ebay picture; but if it is a tenon cutter permanently attached to a brace, Millers Falls made these. I had one on my FS list about a year ago -- sold it for $35. Trevor ---- Start of Message 65848 (thread 28007) ---- From: "Bill Taggart" Date: 1999-08-02 01:20:00 Subject: Re: what is it? -----Original Message----- From: Steve Knight To: oldtools@l... Date: Sunday, August 01, 1999 12:39 AM Subject: what is it? >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=136812146 `twould appear to be a hollow auger for cutting round tenons... - Bill Taggart - At home in Califon, NJ, USA ---- Start of Message 66272 (thread 28007) ---- From: John Lederer Date: 1999-08-09 23:20:00 Subject: Re: What is it? Thanks to Richard Burton, I think we have a tentative ID on the plane like rasp I posted about earlier. It appears to be a rasp used in a type of shoot board to level set blocks of type. The collective knowledge of this list is truly impressive. ++++ End of thread 28007 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28008 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65004 (thread 28008) ---- From: Walt Lane Date: 1999-07-12 14:56:00 Subject: FS: Woodies (Revisited) As of 10:30 AM today, this is all that's left. Fellow GG's, Found a few good woodies today which I offer here to those of you who can use them on your bench. I haven't been able to find planes in nice condition in awhile around here. Standard OT procedure to those I recognize; currency in hand to the rest. Shipping will be USPO Priority at your expense. J2 - Pair hollow & round #12, (Bensen & Crannell), irons Good+, wedges Good+, hollow has several very slight dings along bottom edge (won't affect use). Price $50.00 ******************************************************* Also located, but did not buy, a Stanley No. 1, B on lever cap, S on plane body, Q trade mark on iron, minor pitting on sole, tote and knob both good. Owner wants $1050. I passed but can give you a phone number if you are interested. (Not sure he'll come down on the price) ******************************************************* Thanks everyone. Walt Lane **=**=**=**=**=**=**=**=**=**=**=**=**=**=**=** Walt Lane Member: EAIA, M-WTCA, WNYATCA 3 Pewter Lane {Galoot - Maroon Cap} Johnstown, NY 12095 (518-762-8259) ++++ End of thread 28008 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28009 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65005 (thread 28009) ---- From: Jim Spallin Date: 1999-07-12 15:00:00 Subject: test - please ignore test - my e-mail keep bouncing and they think its fixed. ++++ End of thread 28009 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28010 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65006 (thread 28010) ---- From: eoh@k... Date: 1999-07-12 14:55:00 Subject: Esther's Excellent Excursion (long and rambling) From: Esther Heller Well, for anyone who thinks I have been pretty quiet lately, my excuse is being offline for 3 weeks while on vacation. While I am in upstate NY, my parents were born in and retired to Washington state (opposite side of the continent Jeff). Driving is an excellent way to get from hither to yon. I was planning to take a Canadian route, having done the I90/I94 gig a couple times, but then galoot Bruce Van Sloun lured me back to I94 with galoot daughters. (how many kids make a workbench with Daddy as a _kindergarten_ project???) Having been raised techie but never knowing an adult techie female as a child, I am a serious sucker for daughters. I turned up Sunday afternoon with a lathe in the truck and assorted turning tools by Phil Koontz. Bruce had assembled Aaron (taak) and John Hofstead-Parks and families to eat lunch and meet me. We put together the lathe and played. John was unimpressed with the precision, but then he is a metalhead into mucho pain reconditioning metalworking antiques (ask anyone on rec.crafts.metalworking). He did allow as how field repairs (we managed to break a treadle part and made another from Bruce's lumber pile) is a lot easier than his toys ;-) I had a good time and was handed some bowsaw blade material and a horn handled wooden smoother before I left since there was still some room in the truck.... Galoot hospitality can't be beat!! Since he got a scanner for Father's Day, I expect a web site with pictures from the kids' workbench soon! Drove off to western WA and hung out with family for a week, biggest galoot activity being setting up the lathe at the family reunion in Spokane and intriguing several adult males and a bunch of kids. A couple kids, especially one great-niece, were absolutely fascinated. I will send a couple copies of Don Weber's article to my mother in case anyone wants to surprise a kid for Christmas. I spent a day driving to Powell's bookstore in Portland and shopping. The "free" parking cost me about $65/hr for several hours, and the ww haul included Hasluck's carving book. They also had 2 copies of Michael Abbot's Green Woodworking on the shelf, Borders took 2 weeks to special order... The SCA book budget was totally blown and I hadn't been to any big wars yet this year. After poking around a gem and mineral show in central Oregon, I went to the West-An Tir SCA war in south Oregon. Dropped in not knowing anybody, happened to set up camp next to some old friends of folks from my area, and set up the lathe. Had a steady stream of guys, mostly from the West kingdom (most of California, Australia, and Alaska) dropping by to admire and try it. There are actually some galoot woodworkers in the region, and I saw some of their work, even though some of the best known ones were not at the war. In my area I am the only galoot ww I know of except for a carver. The most interesting project, albeit with some tailed apprentices, is a 16 foot tall Trojan horse, designed to be an archer's platforn in SCA wars. They are building the whole thing, then slicing it in half through the body for transport. One of the guys admiring the lathe showed me the pictures, a lot of work and thought went into it and it is very recognisably a horse. When the webpage goes up I will post it. Another very interesting item was a pair of walnut chairs in late Italian style that disassemble for transport, owned by my neighbors. I got cleverness points for guessing that they were held together by bed rail hardware nicely morticed into the wood (front and back rails connecting the sides pretending to be bed rails). The chairs when assembled are very sturdy without being heavy, important when camping. I see some in my future, they would be suitable for any living room. I did not buy a lot of tools (user not collecter!) but did pick up a nice little axe that needs a new handle at an antique place a bit west of Bruce, that has an instant Shelton collection for anyone inclined. But in what you would expect to be OT hell, Potter, Nebraska, looking like Lake Wobegone MN (Non north Americans please see footnote) were not one but two antique stores. The first one yielded a nice wooden jointer with fairly flat sole and reasonable price, and a $12 drawknife with a bit of rust, as well as the information that there was another store in town that also had tools. She didn't have much, but she did have a tool handle with several bits in a shop window, reasonable price, nice rosewood, nice condition, now in the glove compartment. A couple straight chisels, small gouge, gimlet, add a Phillips head screwdriver and you can handle nearly any emergency. So are there any plans for Crane's this week? Esther, enjoying sleeping in her own bed for once, eoh@k... Footnote: For folks who do not listen to public radio in the US, Lake Wobegone Minnesota, the little town that time forgot, that the decades cannot improve, where all the women are strong, the men are good looking, and the children are above average; is a supposedly fictional place celebrated in a weekly monologue on the radio show, A Prairie Home Companion. See more of the idea at http://phc.mpr.org/activities/19990706_25th/mnmo.html ---- Start of Message 65019 (thread 28010) ---- From: "Paul T. Radovanic" Date: 1999-07-12 23:25:00 Subject: Re: Esther's Excellent Excursion (long and rambling) I wondered if I was the only one who Galooted along with Garrison. Around here, the NPR Sat. night broadcast is repeated on Sunday afternoons, so my designated Shop Time is from 3:00 to 5:00 Sundays. This isn't the Prairie Home Companion, but some of you might be interested in this site http://www.whenradiowas.com which is a collection of old-time radio shows from the 40's and 50's. You'll find a list of radio stations that carry the shows in your local areas, but you can also download some from the net. There's something about old tools and old-time radio that goes together. ;o) Paul Radovanic On 12 Jul 99, at 10:55, eoh@k... wrote: > Footnote: For folks who do not listen to public radio in the US, Lake > Wobegone Minnesota, the little town that time forgot, that the decades > cannot improve, where all the women are strong, the men are good looking, > and the children are above average; is a supposedly fictional place > celebrated in a weekly monologue on the radio show, A Prairie Home > Companion. ---- Start of Message 65028 (thread 28010) ---- From: "Bill Taggart" Date: 1999-07-13 02:11:00 Subject: Re: Esther's Excellent Excursion (long and rambling) Paul T. R. wrote: > There's something about old tools and old-time radio that goes > together. ;o) Hmmm.... The stuff I listen to in my shop would probably curl the nosehairs of most Galoots on this list, I'm afraid to say. SWMBO certainly doesn't like it - usually enters the shop, curls up her nose, says "What is that awful crap you're listening to?" and leaves. At least one of my favorite groups is appropriately named "Tool"... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) On the road in Schiller Park, IL ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 65044 (thread 28010) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 1999-07-13 11:57:00 Subject: Re: Esther's Excellent Excursion (long and rambling) Bill Taggart wrote: >The stuff I listen to in my shop would probably curl the >nosehairs of most Galoots on this list, I'm afraid to say. SWMBO >certainly doesn't like it - usually enters the shop, curls up her >nose, says "What is that awful crap you're listening to?" and >leaves. I hear you, bro' But more to the point, I've always found that the fact that I _can_ listen to whatever cr*p I want to while I'm working to be one of the most appealing features of OldToolism. N --- Nichael Cramer nichael@s... nulla dies sine linea http://www.sover.net/~nichael/ ---- Start of Message 65050 (thread 28010) ---- From: "Ellis, Thomas R" Date: 1999-07-13 13:47:00 Subject: RE: Esther's Excellent Excursion (long and rambling) Absolutely! Especially when flattening the backs of blades or sharpening saws. When it's not Garrison time, I have a collection of old radio shows to listen to. (Pick the right show - Shadow, Suspense, etc - and your tools get spooky sharp.) -Tom Ellis -----Original Message----- From: Paul T. Radovanic [mailto:paulrad@c...] Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 7:25 PM To: OLDTOOLS@l... Subject: Re: Esther's Excellent Excursion (long and rambling) There's something about old tools and old-time radio that goes together. ;o) ++++ End of thread 28010 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28011 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65010 (thread 28011) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 1999-07-12 17:40:00 Subject: Crane Listing? [was: Esther's Excellent Excursion (long and rambling)] > [...great story by Esther deleted...] >So are there any plans for Crane's this week? Speaking of which: has any got their auction-lot listing yet? (5 days and counting, and I've still not heard/received anything...) Nichael ++++ End of thread 28011 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28012 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65013 (thread 28012) ---- From: Steve Pugh Date: 1999-07-12 20:45:00 Subject: Marginally topical Electrolysis query Hello all, it's been far too long since my last post (forgive me, Galoots, for I have...oh, nevermind). I hope you all are well and kneedeep in shavings as often as possible! I've taken on yet another project (you see, I was dangerously close to almost doing some woodworking...can't let that happen!), a restorable 1965 Honda Superhawk. Maaaaaaayyybe that counts as an old tool of sorts, I don't know. Thing is, the gas tank is pretty rusty inside and rather than send it out, I remembered this wonderful group of folks that I get emails from (that'd be y'all), and they are always talking about electrolysis as a means to clean up rusty tools. So I've printed out my shopping list and am all set to start cooking this tank. However, I'm wondering - how vital is the 3M Scotchbrite work after electrolysis is complete? Getting my little pinkies into that tank with a scrub pad is gonna be tricky as all heck. Can I just rinse it with some sort of magical get-rid-of-the-leftover-oxidant solution? Honest, this sort of prep will make my more on-topic toolish restorations go soooo much more smoothly. Thanks! (BTW, not a gloat since I paid a chunklet for it, but I'm getting my vintage Gerstner 11-drawer sometime next week from eBay. Yippee, someplace to put all the little bits!) ++++ End of thread 28012 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28013 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65016 (thread 28013) ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1999-07-12 22:25:00 Subject: Re: Replacement totes for Stanley's, Sargent's, Union's, ** Reply to note from Larry Poffenberger Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:02:02 -0500 > > handle from them. Good rosewood handles are getting very difficult > to find, so I'm looking for a good source. A friend that is a pretty > > Anyway, I'll let you all know how it works out. After reading this post I decided to order a replacement tote for my #8. I will probably repair the old one but actually want a good tote on this plane before the millenium (that's 2001 for the precise). Since I minimize shop time during the monsoon I ordered it sanded and finished. H*ll I sweat out $6 worth of liquid in the shop doing that kind of work. It arrived today. A very nice looking chunk of wood that matches the original tote. Fits the #8 like it was made for it. Well worth the money. The finish is dark and reddish so I can't see much grain but that should change with use as the tote gets hand polished. Based on a sample of 1 it is worthwhile. ernie fisch ---- Start of Message 65059 (thread 28013) ---- From: "Gary P. Johns" Date: 1999-07-13 15:32:00 Subject: Re: Replacement totes for Stanley's, Sargent's, Union's, GG's Like Ernie I too placed an order for replacement tote and knob. I ordered a #4 Later type tote unfinished and unsanded and a early type knob (low knob) that was finished. I love the finished low knob if fits perfectly on my 3 pat'd date #3. The tote however required a small amount of adjusting to fit the #4 SW I was placing it on. On the whole it was a perfect fit and I didn't mind the adjustment. Now all i gotta do is sand and finish. Anybody got suggestions on how to finish rosewood? Plain linseed oil...or maybe some stain and then oil? Gary Johns OldTool Heaven "RustHunter" http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9147 ++++ End of thread 28013 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28014 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65017 (thread 28014) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 1999-07-12 22:38:00 Subject: Re: Crane Listing? [was: Esther's Excellent Excursion (long and Minch wrote: >A quick question: > >What the heck is Crane's? > >Ed Minch Richard Crane was --as I understand-- one of the first antique-auctioneers to have major/exclusive (i.e. nothing but) OldTools sales. The standard run was to have several auctions over the course of the summer with one large flea-market/auction in July. Most auctions were typically held at his barn in Hillsboro NH (a few --particularly during bad weather-- were held in Nashua NH). However, last Autumn Mr Crane announced he was selling the business to Time&Strike (of Allentown NH). The first auction ran by the new owners was held last May. However, Mr Crane announced that --at least for the time being-- he'd still be holding the big July flea-market/auction at his place --the next one is next Fri/Sat/Sun (16/17/18) with the auction on Sat morning. If you've never been there, you've missed a real treat. Mr Crane --who looks, talks and acts exactly like the old-timey New England auctioneer sent over by Central Casting-- and his folks invariably offered great tools in an environment that was well (and deservedly) known for its honesty and square-dealing. (The parking lots were pretty cool, too. ;-) And the sense of community, among the buyers et al was a pleasure in itself. In short, I always found it generally worth the trip, even if I didn't buy anything. (BTW, if you have Garett Hack's book on planes, he devotes a couple pages in his section on "buying tools" to Mr Crane's auction.) Nichael P.S. (or, rather, P.U.) If you've never been there before and you're thinking about coming one last bit of advice. Go to the bathroom before you get there. %-) ---- Start of Message 65022 (thread 28014) ---- From: Jack Kamishlian Date: 1999-07-13 00:17:00 Subject: Re: Crane Listing? [was: Esther's Excellent Excursion (long and rambling)] Nichael Cramer asks of Crane's auction: > Speaking of which: has any got their auction-lot listing yet? (5 days and > counting, and I've still not heard/received anything...) > Yes, I got their listing in the mail today - The "Time & Strike Auction Company" - 406 lots. Cheers, Jack in Endwell, NY ++++ End of thread 28014 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28015 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65018 (thread 28015) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 1999-07-12 22:56:00 Subject: Re: Crane Listing? Nichael Cramer [me] wrote: >Speaking of which: has any got [Crane's] auction-lot listing yet? (5 days and >counting, and I've still not heard/received anything...) Guess I gotta learn to sit on my hands a bit longer; mine came in the afternoon mail. 2 Bits: 1] The listing only has 406 lots. Not bad, but certainly less than the last few (the E-bay effect?) 2] OTOH, you might want to consider stocking up. The first page lists the new schedule for "commission fees" (as of 1Oct99): $0.00-$500.00 20% $501.00-$750.00 15% $751.00-$1000.00 10% $1001.00-2500.00 5% It then reads "No commission fee charged for any item selling above $2500.00!!" (Does that mean the "commissions" listed are all on a "per item" basis? I.e. rather than on the total?) N P.S. What the heck is a "Lung start" [Item #374] and a "sing sing sash plane" [Item#345]? P.P.S Items #85 and #218 list a "YB moulder". I assume this is is "Yellow Beech", but perhaps they been reading the FAQ for this list? P.P.P.S. Item #237 Lists a Lie Nielson low angle plane. Is this the first LN plane "in the wild" at Cranes? ---- Start of Message 65034 (thread 28015) ---- From: DoveTailed@a... Date: 1999-07-13 03:19:00 Subject: Re: Crane Listing? In a message dated 7/12/1999 7:05:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nichael@s... writes: << owner-oldtools@l... Would someone with the information about the "Crane" auction next weekend care to share the time, location, and other available details for those of us not yet on the Time & Strike mailing list who may decide to attend? Thanks! Quent dovetailed@a... ---- Start of Message 65060 (thread 28015) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 1999-07-13 15:40:00 Subject: Re: Crane Listing? > >From: DoveTailed@a... > >Would someone with the information about the "Crane" auction next weekend > >care to share the time, location, and other available details for those of > us > >not yet on the Time & Strike mailing list who may decide to attend? Thanks! A scan of the cover-sheet for the mailing for the auction can be found at: http://www.sover.net/~nichael/crane.jpg Nichael ---- Start of Message 65133 (thread 28015) ---- From: "Shepard, Dave" Date: 1999-07-15 16:17:00 Subject: RE: Crane Listing? I'm interested in attending my first Crane's auction (and I suppose the last real one). I notice the Time & Strike notice, that one galoot was nice enough to post, listed the auction as Saturday with a preview on Friday. When does all the parking lot action and vendor sales start? Is it a particular time on Friday or Saturday? Is it essentially daybreak on one of those days? Enquiring galoots want to know. Thanks, --Dave Shepard ---- Start of Message 65146 (thread 28015) ---- From: Joe Hurray Date: 1999-07-15 21:27:00 Subject: Re: Crane Listing? Dave writes: > When does all the parking lot action and vendor sales > start? Is it a particular time on Friday or Saturday? > Is it essentially daybreak on one of those days? > Enquiring galoots want to know. I spoke to somebody at Time & Strike today to ask this very question. They are not letting dealers in until 6:00am, and buyers will not be allowed in until 7:00am!!! I guess the good old days are gone forever, no more shopping by flashlight, etc. They obviously didn't check with me before they made that rule. Joe in New Hampshire (I will be the depressed galoot who will be wishing he could have started shopping at 5:00am or earlier, like the good old days...) ---- Start of Message 65147 (thread 28015) ---- From: Minch Date: 1999-07-15 21:27:00 Subject: Re: Crane Listing? Date: (Date Unavailable) Ed wrote: >OK, here's another one that makes no sense. Got a #4, everyhting on it >says a type 11, except it has the larger depth adjustment knob. I have a type 11 #3 in great shape EXCEPT that the lever cap has a notched "STANLEY" as begun on the type 13. Ed Minch ++++ End of thread 28015 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28016 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65020 (thread 28016) ---- From: DaveWolv@a... Date: 1999-07-12 23:31:00 Subject: re: Crane's Nichael wrote: > P.S. What the heck is a "Lung start" [Item #374] and a "sing sing sash > plane" [Item#345]? "sing sing" == "prison", as in prison labor-made, as in "Auburn"? > P.P.S Items #85 and #218 list a "YB moulder". I assume this is is "Yellow > Beech", but perhaps they been reading the FAQ for this list? "YB" = Yellow BIRCH dave wolverton @ dave's home for wayward benches ++++ End of thread 28016 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28017 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65021 (thread 28017) ---- From: FrankSronce Date: 1999-07-12 23:56:00 Subject: Tom Lie-Nielsen Planes Too Cheap Galooti, I never realized how inexpensive Tom's planes were until I got the announcement about the new Commemorative infill block plane from Bridge City. I think I would like the ebony version with the walnut case if someone wants to know what Secret Santa can get me this year. :-) Tom's prices pale by comparison - real bargains. Frank (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ---- Start of Message 65040 (thread 28017) ---- From: Bill Brady Date: 1999-07-13 07:11:00 Subject: Re: Tom Lie-Nielsen Planes Too Cheap FrankSronce Wrote: >Galooti, > >I never realized how inexpensive Tom's planes were until I got the >announcement about the new Commemorative infill block plane from >Bridge City. I second that notion Frank. I also watch the porch (in amusement) as folks compare the L-Ns vs this or that plane on the basis of short time use. I find that I tune and hone a L-N once for about every 5 times with other planes. The point is, ya hafta use a L-N for a few months.... Everyone should have at least 1 L-N. But then, I enjoy honing, mindless repetition. Wm. "Bill" Brady, Harwood MD - Time out to put in the garden ... ++++ End of thread 28017 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28018 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65023 (thread 28018) ---- From: Michael Buck Date: 1999-07-13 00:56:00 Subject: Postpone mail "set OLDTOOLS mail postpone" ++++ End of thread 28018 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28019 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65027 (thread 28019) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-07-13 02:01:00 Subject: The tote's the thing Ok let's face it. It's the tote. Sure we love brass and iron amd steel and paint, but when it gets right down to the heart of it, is there a one of us who didn't come here by the tote? I don't know where the tote came from. Where it started. It's not just a piece of wood. It's a symbol of some kind. A goal to reach for from a far away time. You don't need to hear the story. You know it. Scraping a tote must have been a symbol or proof of acievement somewhere along the line. I mean a tote does not want to be scraped. It just doesn't. It will change grain directions in a wink. And back again quicker. Before today I had always copped out somewhere in the proceedings. Always resorted to sandpaper which wasn't available once. There was once a time when nothing else would save you. It was you and a piece of plain steel against a pretty tough customer who was ready to foil your every attempt to get a good polish on it. Every square inch is covered with endgrain, every which way. I don't know how I got started scraping today. I bought one of the new totes (allright 2) from Mr. Bordanaro through the museum. I impulsed purchased them instantly after I read the first report. I mean totes for sale. It gets my attention right quick. I think they're great. I bought the unfinished models mostly to see how they were machined. They are machined beautufully as far as I'm concerned. The shaping is as close as I could hope for if I was making it, that's for sure. They are hot. Tolerances are tight in the area of the holes, so to speak. I've scraped one of them so far. It is a trip. I found out how they did it once. The whole story told itself as I was working on the new tote. I have made a small number of totes in my life. All from scratch. They have each been a project. I sort of fell into it today, just now. I trudged downstairs (tah dump da dump dump). Picked up the new tote and looked at it. It was shaped by machine, but shaped it was. Possibilities, plain and simple. I happened to grab a scraper that was old to me. First scraper I ever bought. Durn near the last too, but thats another story. I have become fairly adept at getting a pretty decent finish on wood right off the file. Drawfile the scraper, go to work. It is possible I assure you. I'm sure it was expected of the semi- unskilled for a thousand years. Probably expected for almost as long as rubbing which was the most brainlessly (just kidding) time consuming job of polishing wood of course. But scraping had to be close. All this just came to me as I was continuing to scrape the tote. I'd started by actually sanding the scraper. After my customary filing I took the scraper to a stone and stoned off the perfect enough, but rough, burr I'd just made on it. I somehow knew scraping a tote would mean more than that. After the stone I went to scary sharp paper (a copout from original equipment of course, but please, don't cut my throat entirely. Give me a few small advantages any way I can get them.). I dutifully rolled a big burr with the burnisher on one side and a small one one the other. It's the pull stroke for this job. Lay the scraper right down flat on the work. Instead of holding at a sharp angle, you lay it down. Slowly raise on each stroke until it cuts. After that it's a minute to minute tightrope walk. Any and every slip will be evident in the end. One direction and then the other way faster than I can tell anyone about it. Light fast strokes. Edge just lightly dancing over the wood. Shaving and then scraping. The shaving is first and dangerous. The scraping usually attacks from the opposite direction. I did it right in my lap. I've tried other things. I do know what cramps are. It wasn't going to work. If you want to scrape a rosewood tote clean with a scraper there is no other way I can find. I almost gave up a dozen times. Almost resorted to help. Just kept at it and I can't even tell you why. Just wanted to see what it would be like I guess. It's not easy. Don't let anyone ever tell you hand finishing a plane tote is easy. Guess you knew that instinctively as I did, just in case there was ever any doubt in your mind, let me have a moment......... I now have a new tote with a not frightfully unacceptable finish. I'm glad I bought the unfinished ones. Not sure how many I want to do, but I'm glad I did. I'm also happy I didn't get or put any coloring pigment on it. I think the wood is beautiful. Who doesn't love rosewood? The stuff is clear and fairly tight grain. You gotta love it. I couldn't imagine a mineral pigment that could improve it. It'll get dark enough soon enough for me. I don't plan to help it any. I'll polish it on a buff. Polishing is not a new or unGalootlike job. I believe there were semi clothed guys sqatting in the dirt, rolling the arbor with their feet polishing stones for the emperor of China quite some time ago. I'm not certain people really know exactly when, but it goes back there. Polishing on metal, hyde, cloth. Use the best cutting compound you can get and go to work. It's just that accomplished skill is lacking in today's world. A bad polish job is not a thing of beauty. A good polish job is not a matter of accident. Give it a try. What you got to lose? It feels pretty not bad. Like finally making it to grownup in a long ago time, even though that comes with sadness too. yours, Scott ---- Start of Message 65054 (thread 28019) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-07-13 14:37:00 Subject: Re: The tote's the thing While musing at length on the subject, scott grandstaff wrote: >I bought one of the >new totes (allright 2) from Mr. Bordanaro through the museum. While offlist for a couple of weeks (a cross-continent trip like Esther's, but with no galooting to report) I apparently missed the start of a thread on replacement totes. Whatever was said (and I'd be interested in a private fill-in on "Mr. Bordanaro" and his totes), it prompts me to ask: Has anyone sprung for the replacement tote and knob sets sold through G-W and other WW catalog suppliers? The listing says they will fit any #3-#7 Record or Stanley, but I'm immediately suspicious due to size variations in that range. And the photos in the catalogs suggest that the totes, while of rosewood as advertised, are rather flat-sided and kludgy compared to the well turned oldtimers. I apologize if all this was covered while I was away. Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 65057 (thread 28019) ---- From: "Dave Harris" Date: 1999-07-13 15:02:00 Subject: Re: The tote's the thing ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Holloway To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 10:37 AM Subject: Re: The tote's the thing > Whatever was said (and I'd be interested in > a private fill-in on "Mr. Bordanaro" and his totes), it prompts me to ask: > Has anyone sprung for the replacement tote and knob sets sold > through G-W and other WW catalog suppliers? I bought the replacement knob and tote set from Woodcraft ($19.95). They fit on my Record #6 without any problem, but in no way compare to the older knobs and totes. They seem to be finished with some sort of 'red' finish. When time permits, I plan on removing this and seeing what's underneath. The tote could do with a bit of character adding to it - it is very flat looking/feeling. Despite this, it is still better than the standard 'plastic' that is used nowadays. Cheers, Dave Harris ---- Start of Message 65058 (thread 28019) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 1999-07-13 15:20:00 Subject: Re: The tote's the thing On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, Tom Holloway wrote: > While musing at length on the subject, scott grandstaff wrote: > >I bought one of the > >new totes (allright 2) from Mr. Bordanaro through the museum. This is a name that seems to come up often in these discussions. Where does MrB live? (Should, for example, we expect to see him at Crane's this weekend?) Thanks Nichael ---- Start of Message 65064 (thread 28019) ---- From: Chris Dunn Date: 1999-07-13 17:09:00 Subject: Re: The tote's the thing Tom Holloway wrote: > > While musing at length on the subject, scott grandstaff wrote: > >I bought one of the > >new totes (allright 2) from Mr. Bordanaro through the museum. > > While offlist for a couple of weeks (a cross-continent trip like > Esther's, but with no galooting to report) I apparently missed the start of > a thread on replacement totes. Whatever was said (and I'd be interested in > a private fill-in on "Mr. Bordanaro" and his totes), it prompts me to ask: > Has anyone sprung for the replacement tote and knob sets sold > through G-W and other WW catalog suppliers? The listing says they will fit > any #3-#7 Record or Stanley, but I'm immediately suspicious due to size > variations in that range. And the photos in the catalogs suggest that the > totes, while of rosewood as advertised, are rather flat-sided and kludgy > compared to the well turned oldtimers. > I apologize if all this was covered while I was away. Tom, I started the thread by sharing this link that a friend sent me: http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/ It appears that the supplier of the totes most likely is Paul Bordanaro. Someone pointed out that the item code for the totes is PB-STANHAND. Stranger than truth! I also found that replacement knobs are available! It appears Paul supplies these, too - PB-STANKNOB. Both parts are offered in a multitude of shapes and sizes to match Stanley types and other manufacturer's planes. Anyone order any knobs? Chris ---- Start of Message 65070 (thread 28019) ---- From: "Gary P. Johns" Date: 1999-07-13 21:28:00 Subject: Re: The tote's the thing On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, Chris Dunn begged the question: [snip] > Anyone order any knobs? Well...yes actshually. I got a finished low knob for my 3 patd date #3. Fit was perfect and finish was a dark oil. Nicely sanded and looks good. There is a ring turned into the bottom but it's not like any of the old knobs, so it can't be mistaken for an authentic one. All-in-all I'm very happy with it. Gary Johns OldTool Heaven "RustHunter" http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9147 ++++ End of thread 28019 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28020 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65033 (thread 28020) ---- From: "Al Brockman" Date: 1999-07-13 02:39:00 Subject: Question Hi - visited a "real" barn sale over the weekend - most good stuff was gone but I found an interesting(?) sort of file. Pretty much thrown in for free. It is a trapezoidal-shaped stone about 7" long with a red handle. Cut into the stone, it says "Crystolon Utility File". It was made by Norton Abrasives and is model JD-2. I know all this but what do I use it for? Is it a stone or a file? Any thoughts Al Brockman ++++ End of thread 28020 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28021 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65039 (thread 28021) ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 1999-07-13 06:36:00 Subject: Linishing Machines Some intersting Linishing machines are described at ... http://www.brobo.com.au/machines/grinding_buffing_linishing_machines_attachmen ts.html ++++ End of thread 28021 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28022 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65041 (thread 28022) ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1999-07-13 10:57:00 Subject: Tuning & Honing (was Re: Tom Lie-Nielsen Planes Too Cheap) Oh No - Bill introduces 'the other dimension' to the YB Infill vs Tuned Wood vs Bailey debate . . . Bill Brady wrote: in response to > FrankSronce Wrote:(Snipped per FAQ) > > I find that I tune and hone a L-N once for about every 5 times with other > planes. The point is, ya hafta use a L-N for a few months.... > Now, from time to time we discuss the better points of each type of plane, and only this morning Paul Womack asked about whether a 4 or 4 1/2 is 'best' Surely, the answer in all cases is 'no such thing' The Norris & Spiers were being bought and used by craftsmen who would appreciate not only the fine cutting qualities, but also valued the very qualities which would make the casual user buy something else. Namely - the hardness of the blade and the finicky set-up. To repeat some of the posting I made this morning, after spending an hour after your 12 hours of work using a Charnley Forest stone to sharpen your tools, you want them to stay sharp for as long as possible. Time really *was* money to these men. Even the master craftsmen worked what to us would be a punishing schedule of making and assembly. I submit that the mass produced Bailey type mechanism, in removing some of the skill from the set-up of the plane, yet being adjustable for both rough and fine work, is symptomatic of so much else of society's 'progress' in that the overall quality and expectation of the work produced declined as the skill was removed, yet more was available at a lower price. Every other production process has suffered the same decline in quality as quantity increases, and does so until some threshold is reached where quality again creeps back at the new volume - usually after serious amounts of capital input - take cars as an example, where quality went down when individuals stopped building them, then crept back up. Back to the question. If you intend to build decks (outdoor wooden platforms, Jeff) and add siding (cladding) to timber frames, then mayhap a bailey is a good choice. If you intend to build fine furniture, then you probably want a roughing and a final smoothing plane. If you want a fine finish and therefore have to work a fine surface on your blade (no pits, plough & furrows allowed) then you'll not want to spend hours at 10,000 grit stones doing it often, so go for a hard blade. Me? I don't spend enough time at the bench to delude myself into thinking I have to have the most expensive tools. I firmly believe that fine work can be done with chosen, inexpensive old tools. A pre-1950's No 4 can be tuned to produce fine work, benefits from a blade change, and is more than adequate for 95% of hand tool using casual woodworkers. Hey, am I preachy this morning or not!! Richard Wilson Yorkshireman in shorts, in office, in Buckinghamshire ++++ End of thread 28022 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28023 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65045 (thread 28023) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-07-13 12:11:00 Subject: Re: Linishing & Bedrock 5 1/4 My two cents: Thanks Jeff for a "new" term for me - linishing! And, Joe is certainly the purveyor of the flattest planes on earth - I've seen his excellent product at the Long Beach Flea Market. A while ago there was an article in one of the tool fraternity's rags t hat showed portions of those Stanley trade publications describing how Stanley made tools. For those who have copies of the now defunct Walter's Stanley News, some of the Stanley publications are reproduced in various issues. Anyway, whenever the subjects of a flat bottom or of cleaning planes co mes up, I often suggest a belt sander - table model! According to the Stanley publication that I saw, that was exactly how Stanley did it - grey castings were "sanded" on a humongus table model belt sander. I guess the proper term would be "linishing". There was no mention that I recall of a surface grinder or even a milling machine operation. The Stanley article, which I have been unable to find again in the vast Sanger tool literature library, showed that the sides were also treated to a good sanding/linishing as their finish too. Because the process was "hand-held" and seeming without jig, it should be clear that Joe's machining presumably with jigs (Joe??) would produce a true square between bottom and sides. When I saw Joe's planes, it certainly appeared the sides were sharply square to the bottom. His sides and bottom were flat enough to "stick" to a glass display case because of surface contact/tension. So, the point. If you want square sides, machining has to be the answe r, meaning use of some jig to establish and hold a true 90 degrees. If you want to make a plane, one that you are determined to refinish, look as close as possible to the way it did when it left the Stanley factory, then sanding-linishing is the correct method. Look at a new old stock Stanley plane and observe the course nature of the sanding surface - 100 to 120 grit - and use that as a guide. But, watch out for the effect of heat build-up while belt sanding. It will soften the original jappanning and cause metal grit to be imbedded in to the paint. Oh, and if you revere the plane in its patina'ed or de-lapidated/rusty state, do nothing! For those who actually expect to use the plane, isn't the issue of preservation a false one? *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * *********************************************** ---- Start of Message 65075 (thread 28023) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-07-14 01:28:00 Subject: Re: Linishing & Bedrock 5 1/4 On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:11:23 -0400 "Karl W. Sanger" writes: . When I saw Joe's planes, it certainly appeared the >sides were sharply square to the bottom. His sides and bottom were flat >enough to "stick" to a glass display case because of surface contact/tension. What actually causes one extrememly flat surface to stick to another is atmospheric pressure. Pretty impressive flatness. That is the atmosphere is pushing on the outside surfaces forcing them against each other, but there is no atmospheric pressure in between the two surfaces to balance it because there isn't enough of a gap between them for air molecules. ---- Start of Message 65085 (thread 28023) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-07-14 07:20:00 Subject: Re: Linishing & Bedrock 5 1/4 > > > On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:11:23 -0400 "Karl W. Sanger" > writes: > . When I saw Joe's planes, it certainly appeared the > >sides were sharply square to the bottom. His sides and bottom were flat > > >enough to "stick" to a glass display case because of surface > contact/tension. > > What actually causes one extrememly flat surface to stick to another > is atmospheric pressure. Pretty impressive flatness. > > That is the atmosphere is pushing on the outside surfaces forcing them > against each other, but there is no atmospheric pressure in between the > two surfaces to balance it because there isn't enough of a gap between > them for air molecules. Water/Oil in the gap would do it as well. Surface tension/cohesion. Water would be bad for the plane (obviously) The surfaces still need to be "fairly" flat. I have a gut feeling I read about why slip gauges "wring" together. If I can find the info I'll post it. BugBear. ---- Start of Message 65112 (thread 28023) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-07-15 01:50:00 Subject: Re: Linishing & Bedrock 5 1/4 On Wed, 14 Jul 99 09:10:58 BST bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) writes: >> >> >> On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:11:23 -0400 "Karl W. Sanger" >> writes: >> . When I saw Joe's planes, it certainly appeared the >> >sides were sharply square to the bottom. His sides and bottom were >flat >> >> >enough to "stick" to a glass display case because of surface >> contact/tension. >> >> What actually causes one extrememly flat surface to stick to another >> is atmospheric pressure. Pretty impressive flatness. >> >> That is the atmosphere is pushing on the outside surfaces forcing >them >> against each other, but there is no atmospheric pressure in between >the >> two surfaces to balance it because there isn't enough of a gap >between >> them for air molecules. > >Water/Oil in the gap would do it as well. Surface tension/cohesion. >Water would be bad for the plane (obviously) > Ahesion between the liquid and the solid surfaces. Cohesion within the liquid layer. Similar to capillary action. >The surfaces still need to be "fairly" flat. I have a gut feeling I >read >about why slip gauges "wring" together. If I can find the info I'll >post it. > Same effect, I'll warrant. If the two surfaces that are in intimate contact are of similar metals they may become permanantly fused. ---- Start of Message 65114 (thread 28023) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 1999-07-15 02:17:00 Subject: Re: Linishing & Bedrock 5 1/4 On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:50:18 EDT, Douglas S Caprette wrote: >If the two surfaces that are in intimate contact are of similar metals >they may become permanantly fused. And if the two surfaces constitute approximately 30 kg of U235 when they become permanently fused, they will momentarily become unfused and transformed with stunning force into a variety of lesser materials. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA avogadro@b... (also avogadro@w...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ++++ End of thread 28023 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28024 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65047 (thread 28024) ---- From: John Gunterman Date: 1999-07-13 07:41:00 Subject: Crane's Info%&&% > >Would someone with the information about the "Crane" auction ++++ End of thread 28024 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28025 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65048 (thread 28025) ---- From: John Gunterman Date: 1999-07-13 07:55:00 Subject: Coming to Cranes???? Howdi.... So, who's coming to Crane's this weekend? I had such fun last time I set up the grill, that I'll be hosting a "hospitality tent" this time around. Burgers and Hot-Dogs Okay w/ everybody for Friday night? I wasthinking of smoking a whole turkey or maybe a beef roast or 3, all day Saturday for a feast on Saturday night. If anybody wants to haul along their scrap-bin, I'll help you dispose of it in the cooking fire.(This is a 3 Day event now, remeber ;-) One thing I noticed in years past, is a lack of potable water in the area. So, I picked up a 25 Gal Insulated water cooler I'll haul along. Oh, yes one other thing... on the way there is a nice spot to go swimming. (the Family Unit goes there daily in the summer.) When you are heading up Rt. 202 look for signs for Elm Brook State Park (right across form the Golden Pineapple, can't miss that!-) I figured folks might want to stop by to cool off in the water, do some fishing, wash up, or use a flush toilet, etc, this is a great place for all that. It'll cost you a dollar to get in but that's all. ++++ End of thread 28025 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28026 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65049 (thread 28026) ---- From: Gerry Kmack Date: 1999-07-13 13:35:00 Subject: Colorado toolin?? gentle tool-collectin' galoots: The family unit is headed out shortly (Saturday) for our annual vacation. Towards the end of July, we plan to car trip through various parts of Colorado. We will be entering southcentral CO (from New Mexico); from there plan to proceed to the Denver/Ft Collins area; thence across the center of the state, down through the Silverton/Durango region & back to AZ via 4 corners. So, naturally, I have the obvious question(s) for this august group: Where Are The Tool Haunts In This Fair State?? Any tool dealers, flea markets, museums, etc. ?? Any galoots/other galootish sites?? TIA, Gerry Kmack / Cave Creek, AZ .... *really* looking forward to (temporarily) escaping monsoon season in the SW desert! ---- Start of Message 65055 (thread 28026) ---- From: georgew@m... Date: 1999-07-13 14:42:00 Subject: Re: Colorado toolin?? Gerry asked: >The family unit is headed out shortly (Saturday) for our annual vacation. >Towards the end of July, we plan to car trip through various parts of >Colorado. We will be entering southcentral CO (from New Mexico); from >there plan to proceed to the Denver/Ft Collins area; thence across the >center of the state, down through the Silverton/Durango region & back to AZ >via 4 corners. >So, naturally, I have the obvious question(s) for this august group: Where >Are The Tool Haunts In This Fair State?? >Any tool dealers, flea markets, museums, etc. ?? Any galoots/other >galootish sites?? Gerry, If you are coming by US 160, there is a rust shop in Ft Garland that I have had some luck at. Can't miss it, right on Rt 160 (also the only street in town). Alamosa and Buena Vista both have shops that look promising but I haven't stopped yet. If you are coming by I-70 or through Gunnison, there are some rust shops in and around Montrose on 550 that are interesting. Ouray and Silverton are both busts for old tools (even if you find an old pick ax, it will be tourist priced), but they are great towns to walk around. Very interesting histories. Nothing in Durango. No sir, nothing at all. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Actually we have a small flea market on Sunday that is usually slim pickings and some garage sales that are also meager. Anteek shops are geared to take all the Texans' money who infest the town to escape the heat down there. You might find something, but you will be lucky. My best local tooling has been off season (fall or spring). Give me a holler if you want some advise on what to do/see in the Durango area. Also if you want to stop by and hoist a brew and fondle some of my coll..er working tools. We do have some very good local brews. George ---- Start of Message 65062 (thread 28026) ---- From: Dick Durbin Date: 1999-07-13 16:55:00 Subject: Re: Colorado toolin?? On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 georgew@m... wrote: > Nothing in Durango. No sir, nothing at all. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Actually we have a small > flea market on Sunday that is usually slim pickings and some garage sales that are also meager. Anteek shops are geared > to take all the Texans' money who infest the town to escape the heat down there. You might find something, but you will > be lucky. My best local tooling has been off season (fall or spring). When we lived in Colorado we heard it said that the only things wrong with the state were that it was too far from God and too close to Texas. Do they still have the Colorado-Texas tomato war? Dick Durbin "Who is out there to provide us with a Tallahassee, FL personal example of virtue and www.tfn.net/~ddurbin self-sacrifice for a higher good?"-Calvin ++++ End of thread 28026 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28027 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65053 (thread 28027) ---- From: "DuPrie, James" Date: 1999-07-13 14:14:00 Subject: stickers Was:: weight of green wood or Building a drying shed t hat won't fall in. I've always used rough pine as stickers. No problems so far.... --JD ++++ End of thread 28027 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28028 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65061 (thread 28028) ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 1999-07-13 16:36:00 Subject: Linishing Machines/Attachments Here is a photo of a linishing attachment installed on a bench grinder: http://www.brobo.com.au/machines/grinding_buffing_linishing_machines_attachmen ts_lg150hd.gif Motorized linishers are also available. >From the photos, it would appear that the U.S. equivalent of a linisher would be a Delta or equal "finishing machine." A 6 by 48 is pretty much the max for a roll-around finishing machine. But larger, stationary models are also available. I would guess that a 4 by 60 or a 6 by 60 machine would be needed to cover all metallic plane sizes. I suspect the abrasive used with a linishing machine is somewhat different from the 3M purple abrasive available here in the U.S. ---- Start of Message 65084 (thread 28028) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-07-14 07:20:00 Subject: Re: Linishing Machines/Attachments An Australian good ol' Brobo-Waldown! These things are built like tanks, cost the same and IMHO are worth their (heavy) weight in gold! Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@n... http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Wednesday, 14 July 1999 02:36 Subject: Linishing Machines/Attachments > Here is a photo of a linishing attachment installed on a bench grinder: > > http://www.brobo.com.au/machines/grinding_buffing_linishing_machines_attachme n > ts_lg150hd.gif > >sniperoo ---- Start of Message 65087 (thread 28028) ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1999-07-14 10:33:00 Subject: Re: Linishing Machines/Attachments FWIW the July issue of 'Furniture & Cabinetmaking' (UK rag, recommended) carries an artivle about Alan Peters. It shows a photo of his present workshop, one room of which is devoted to housing a 1928 wadkin 'belt sander' - 1928 = Old tool ?? It stands around 7 feet tall, and is open frame. The belts must be 30 feet or s o by around 10 inches (I'm going from a photo) imagine two uprights, each with two pulleys sticking out, the belt is looped around so it runs over a table at worktop height, then up to the ceiling, across, down, and back again. At one end is a table to enable use as a vertical belt. Now *that*s linishing.... Weell, strictly its belt sanding, but the machine is 5 years older than Peters himself - cost 100 sterlinbg in 1962 apparently. Linishing - it's my understanding that a linisher has a narrow (1") belt, and is a surface finishing process - i.e. no attempt at dimensional accuracy. Richard Wilson Footnore - this is the Alan Peters who amongst other things, did the revision of Joyce's boof on furnture making. PeterH5322@a... wrote: > Here is a photo of a linishing attachment installed on a bench grinder: > > http://www.brobo.com.au/machines/grinding_buffing_linishing_machines_attachme n > ts_lg150hd.gif > > Motorized linishers are also available. > > >From the photos, it would appear that the U.S. equivalent of a linisher woul d > be a Delta or equal "finishing machine." > > A 6 by 48 is pretty much the max for a roll-around finishing machine. > > But larger, stationary models are also available. > > I would guess that a 4 by 60 or a 6 by 60 machine would be needed to cover > all metallic plane sizes. > > I suspect the abrasive used with a linishing machine is somewhat different > from the 3M purple abrasive available here in the U.S. > > -- ---- Start of Message 65101 (thread 28028) ---- From: "Shepard, Dave" Date: 1999-07-14 15:26:00 Subject: RE: Linishing Machines/Attachments Actually what is described below is a stroke sander. It is for finishing work on wood products. It is not a linisher. It's great for sanding large flat panels very quickly. Generally you use a block against the back of the sanding belt so that it contacts the piece you are working on. This will not necessarily produce a flat surface, just a smooth one. Cheers, --Dave >FWIW the July issue of 'Furniture & Cabinetmaking' (UK rag, recommended) >carries an artivle about Alan Peters. >It shows a photo of his present workshop, one room of which is devoted to >housing a 1928 wadkin 'belt sander' >- 1928 = Old tool ?? > >It stands around 7 feet tall, and is open frame. The belts must be 30 feet or so >by around 10 inches (I'm going from a photo) imagine two uprights, each with >two pulleys sticking out, the belt is looped around so it runs over a table at >worktop height, then up to the ceiling, across, down, and back again. At one >end is a table to enable use as a vertical belt. > >Now *that*s linishing.... ---- Start of Message 65115 (thread 28028) ---- From: Steve Jones Date: 1999-07-15 01:19:00 Subject: RE: Linishing Machines/Attachments At 11:26 AM 7/14/99 -0400, Dave wrote: >Actually what is described below is a stroke sander. It is for >finishing work on wood products. It is not a linisher. >It's great for sanding large flat panels very quickly. >Generally you use a block against the back of the sanding belt >so that it contacts the piece you are working on. This will not >necessarily produce a flat surface, just a smooth one. > >>FWIW the July issue of 'Furniture & Cabinetmaking' (UK rag, recommended) >>carries an artivle about Alan Peters. >>It shows a photo of his present workshop, one room of which is devoted to >>housing a 1928 wadkin 'belt sander' >>- 1928 = Old tool ?? The same issue does include a review of two modern "belt linishers". Marc Adams has a similar machine in his woodworking school but I think he just calls it a "big belt sander".... Does this mean that our bretherern (and sisteren) across the pond have pad linishers, finishing linishers, random-orbit linishers and so on? Or is the term specific to the machines that use belts? (Jeff? others?) Inquiring minds want to know. Well, one or two might. OT Content: none, but the author says of assembling one of them "I just bolted together various bits until I ran out of bolts and bits" - a very neanderthal-like attitude, IMO. Steve Jones Kokomo IN ++++ End of thread 28028 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28029 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65063 (thread 28029) ---- From: "George Langford, Sc.D." Date: 1999-07-13 19:53:00 Subject: Re: Stickers & Building a drying shed Hallo patient Galoots ! About 25 years ago, I needed a place to store recently cut firewood (read: green lumber) so that it would not be in contact with the ground. I also needed a workshed (OldTools haunt). Therefore, I combined the two into a sixteen by twelve structure, stick built nearly entirely with hand tools. The work area is about eight by twelve, and the firewood storage goes around two sides, which (by design) face NE and NW. I had found (with an earlier minimalist structure) that the firewood rotted on the sides facing the sun. The whole structure sits on concrete footers, elevated with solid concrete blocks, and there is a full deck as well as a full roof. The roof covers the firewood storage area, and the upper portions of the storage area extend up under the roof. There is vent to exhaust hot air that otherwise would be trapped under the roof. The secret is the combination of elevated stacking, roof, and venting. The wettest, most disgustingly rotten log will dry out completely in about six months, and no further rotting takes place. Green firewood dries out between Fall and the heating season in Winter, the same year. The mechanism goes as follows: Although the roof occasionally gets heated by the sun, that effect is small because there are trees all around. In Winter, the solar heating is a bit more, but is diffused by twigs & branches. The drying mechanism is actually that the air trapped between the logs is humid, and humid air is less dense than dry air. Therefore, the humid air rises and then escaped through the vent, aided by whatever solar heating of the roof occurs. To dry lumber, I would clamp the stickered boards together and then stand them horizontally on edge. I might even add a chimney-like affair to the roof to increase the draft caused by the humidity in the air between the boards. I rick-stack the firewood, BTW, not cordwood style. When I was buying firewood, I found that I could rick-stack the "cord" to a pile considerably smaller than 128 cubic feet, and I often had to demand rebates from the shorting dealers. The expense of photographing the short pile was a major annoyance, so I stopped buying firewood. Hope this helps the debate. Best regards, George Langford in unseasonably cool SE PA amenex@a... http://www.amenex.com/georgesbasement/ ++++ End of thread 28029 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28030 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65065 (thread 28030) ---- From: TURFF49@a... Date: 1999-07-13 18:40:00 Subject: Auctions Has anyone (auction houses) thought of doing an auction at the Beach (Myrtle Beach). There never seems to be any tool auctions even remotely close and this is such a great place for people to visit.Even in the winter time the weather isn't that bad. Just a thought (I'm jealous of the gloats) Brian ++++ End of thread 28030 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28031 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65066 (thread 28031) ---- From: "Rodgers Charles" Date: 1999-07-13 18:50:00 Subject: KNOBS & TOTES Galoots: I post the info from the business card I picked up at the spring PATINA auction (tailgating): Paul J. Bordonaro 553 Bloomfield Ave Windsor, CT 06095 (860) 688-3909 It also says: Handles & Knobs made for your old planes all sizes & shapes Rosewood Cocobolo I didn't buy anything from him, but spent an enjoyable few minutes chatting with him & his missus. He had a table full of totes & knobs. Charlie Rodgers Clinton, Maryland ++++ End of thread 28031 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28032 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65067 (thread 28032) ---- From: "D. Screen" Date: 1999-07-13 18:31:00 Subject: Yankee Bits, SWMBO's and Sears Went to Sears...and picked up some needle files for sharpening my auger bits. Will let you know how well they work or don't work. As I was approaching the tool department...I was walking behind a very attractive (Ally McBeal type) SWMBO attached to her husband. I have been divorced about 6 months now and was thinking about the M word again. That is until I heard this SWMBO....emphatically say "NO!!" to just her husband's glance towards the garden tractors.....when he dared to put his hand on one...she repeated very loudly "NO!!!".....he retreated...tail between his legs. This sent a cold chill down my spine. Sad but true....I quickly retreated on my position, back towards No SWMBO = No permission required to acquire tools. While scanning the file area (bastards, mill, needles)...I spotted a package of Craftsman Push Drill Bits in various sizes. I bought them...they fit my Yankee 130A. Only problem is they were so BLUNT that they would not even DENT a piece of softwood let alone drill a hole. A complete waste of money. Soon to be returned. SWMBO shopping has also been cancelled from my near term plans. ---- Start of Message 65069 (thread 28032) ---- From: TURFF49@a... Date: 1999-07-13 21:14:00 Subject: Re: Yankee Bits, SWMBO's and Sears Can't live with them, Can't live without them. Brian ---- Start of Message 65072 (thread 28032) ---- From: Jim Colburn Date: 1999-07-13 22:04:00 Subject: Re: Yankee Bits, SWMBO's and Sears Hello- At 05:14 PM 7/13/99 EDT, you wrote: >Can't live with them, Can't live without them. Brian Oh, I am doing just fine without ANY of them. Jim Colburn ++++ End of thread 28032 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28033 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65068 (thread 28033) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1999-07-13 20:23:00 Subject: Forged Holdfast Had an outstanding night of galooting with Tom Price on Sunday. Came this close to completing the workbench. Couple more details and a couple coats of finish and it will be time to smash a bottle of champagne on it. We drilled the 3/4" dogholes at a spacing influenced by the many kind responses to my request last week. I was using my new $7.50 12" Yankee #2100 with a Russell Jennings #12 bit. I now feel as buff as Brace Boy. http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?fsaall:1:./temp/~ammem_oydI:: My arms still ache. Tom was using a Millers Falls #731 with a Lion chuck. One heck of a tool. More impressive is that the flea market guy begged him to buy it for $1. Yep, one measly dollar. After Tom drilled the first hole I was very impatient and wanted to try a holdfast. I failed in my first girly attempt to set the thing. Tom gave it a couple of good whacks and the board was held to the bench like it had been glued. So I released it with a whack and gave it a couple of more good whacks to reset it. Unfortunately the Made in Taiwan special from Woodorker's Warehouse thought it better to split in half rather than suffer this indignity. So I am in need of a holdfast or two. Is forged better than cast for resisting destruction? What sizes are found to be most useful? I can't find Brian Emery's information on EN or eGroups, can anyone supply this? Are any of the forge-happy galoots making and selling holdfasts? Regards, Steve - thinking 150lb pieces of ice falling on his head explains a lot about Karl. ---- Start of Message 65071 (thread 28033) ---- From: SSalbWW@a... Date: 1999-07-13 21:50:00 Subject: Re: Forged Holdfast By your talk of drilling the holes, I understand that you are using round dogs. Is there any difference between round and square? It seems to me that round are easier to drill after the top is put together, but you could do square pretty easily when you are gluing up your benchtop. -Shannon ---- Start of Message 65076 (thread 28033) ---- From: Dave and Connie Date: 1999-07-14 03:00:00 Subject: RE: Forged Holdfast Brother Steve Reynolds ponders: > So I am in need of a holdfast or two. >Is forged better than cast for resisting destruction? >What sizes are found to be most useful? >I can't find Brian Emery's information on EN or eGroups, >can anyone supply this? Are any of the forge-happy >galoots making and selling holdfasts? I asked about making holdfasts a few years ago in a blacksmithing class. I expected a complex answer. What Dick Rightmeyer told me was get a lug wrench from the junkyard. Heat the wrench end and cut it off. Flatten the cut end and tighten the bend in the wrench handle. Toss it in the pile and make the next one. 'Bout a buck each. Maybe we should knock out a bunch as a reminder of the Western NY Galootapalooza in August. Dave Sneakin in a stealth ad for the get together. ---- Start of Message 65077 (thread 28033) ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 1999-07-14 02:10:00 Subject: Steve's Big A** Bench - was Re: Forged Holdfast Steve Reynolds wrote: > Had an outstanding night of galooting with >Tom Price on Sunday. Came this close to completing >the workbench. Couple more details and a couple >coats of finish and it will be time to smash a >bottle of champagne on it. Yep, Steve is _real_ close to finishing his big a** bench. This thing is one whopping hunk of maple. It looks like a cross between a bowling alley and an aircraft carrier. The tail vise is a traditional all wood vise (with steel bench screw) made from Frank Klauzs's plans and is a monument to Steve's perseverance. I begged him to buy a hardware kit but he went the whole nine yards, including cutting the large dovetail joints. The thing slides back and forth well and has zero racking. > We drilled the 3/4" dogholes at a spacing >influenced by the many kind responses to my >request last week. I was using my new $7.50 12" >Yankee #2100 with a Russell Jennings #12 bit. I'd like to say that we drilled the holes freehand because we are just _so_ good at this but I made a couple of boring guides out of oak scrap. I bored the guide holes with a 3/4" forstner bit on my dr*ll pr*ss. I made these with a central block (plus guide hole) with the bottom lamination having enough room on each side of the central block to clamp to the bench top. These were a spectacular success and saved me the trouble of having to cart my radial dr*ll pr*ss over to Steve's basement, this being my back-up plan. >My arms still ache. Tom was using a Millers Falls >#731 with a Lion chuck. That there is actually a #771 which, like Steve's recent Ebay acquisition, is also a 12" brace. I can't imagine us tackling the job with anything less than 12" braces. That maple is HARD stuff, especially compared to the poplar I used on my last project. The last couple of holes seemed to go a lot faster but the second glass of stout may have distorted my sense of time. >One heck of a tool. More >impressive is that the flea market guy begged him >to buy it for $1. Yep, one measly dollar. Heh, heh. The haggling started at $5. I love it when a flea market vendor shouts out a price and starts knocking it down as soon as you walk away. I guess he was tired of lugging the thing around. It had some rust on it but it doesn't any more. It cleaned up well. The rosewood is in great shape. The center of my forehead is still somewhat tender from pressing down on my hand and the pad of the brace. What's this condition called? **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Will Work For Tools New Galoot? You can find the Not Officially Authorized Orientation at the Galoot's Progress: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ---- Start of Message 65078 (thread 28033) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-07-14 03:57:00 Subject: RE: Forged Holdfast At 10:00 PM -0500 7/13/99, Dave Matthews wrote: About making holdfasts from old lug wrenches: >Maybe we should knock out a bunch >as a reminder of the Western NY Galootapalooza in >August. Sounds great, and those who make the trek to our place on August 28 will be able to compare the action of a Brian Emery 3/4" model to any that others might bring, as well as my modified bar clamp version. For that matter, they can compare Veritas 3/4" round bench stops to springless square wooden jobbies, now that my slab-o-beech antique planing bench is rehabbed to working order. I'll be posting an updated invitation soon, with more details on obtaining directions for finding my place and the like, but from the replies I've received so far it looks like this could develop into a semi-major event. So look in your road atlases for Lansing, NY, just up the east shore of Cayuga lake from Ithaca (AKA PRINY, home of the listserv), and keep August 28 open. See you soon, Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 65079 (thread 28033) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-14 11:45:00 Subject: Re: Forged Holdfast > So I am in need of a holdfast or two. >Is forged better than cast for resisting destruction? >What sizes are found to be most useful? >I can't find Brian Emery's information on EN or eGroups, >can anyone supply this? Are any of the forge-happy >galoots making and selling holdfasts? do the thrifty version iron pipe and elbows. works great. the galvanizing holds real well. Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ---- Start of Message 65093 (thread 28033) ---- From: Steve Jones Date: 1999-07-14 11:25:00 Subject: Re: Steve's Big A** Bench - was Re: Forged Holdfast At 10:10 PM 7/13/99 EDT, Tom Price wrote: >The center of my forehead is still somewhat tender from pressing down on >my hand and the pad of the brace. What's this condition called? It's called "acquiring the traditional neanderthal sloping forehead." To go with the scraped and calloused knuckles. Steve Jones Kokomo IN ---- Start of Message 65094 (thread 28033) ---- From: John Gunterman Date: 1999-07-14 08:31:00 Subject: Re: Steve's Big A** Bench - was Re: Forged Holdfast At 07:25 AM 7/14/99 -0400, Steve Jones wrote: >At 10:10 PM 7/13/99 EDT, Tom Price wrote: > > >The center of my forehead is still somewhat tender from pressing down on > >my hand and the pad of the brace. What's this condition called? > >It's called "acquiring the traditional neanderthal sloping forehead." To go >with the scraped and calloused knuckles. very similar to the Ancient Inca's strapping boards on the foreheads of their young to mold their developing foreheads to be flat?-) ---- Start of Message 65096 (thread 28033) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1999-07-14 13:40:00 Subject: Re: Forged Holdfast There you are a rockin' on the porch. All is blissful. Some folks over here talking about making infills. Others planning vacation get-togethers. Many are bragging about just completed benches. The FlatSole Society is hearing a lecture on linishing. Quite a few are exchanging opinions and experiences with replacement totes. Many galoots of all denominations living in comity and fellowship in the snug bosom of the oldtools porch. BUT THEN, some fresh-faced kid ask the ostensibly innocent question: On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:50:49 EDT SSalbWW@a... writes: >By your talk of drilling the holes, I understand that you >are using round dogs. Is there any difference between >round and square? It seems to me that >round are easier to drill after the top is put together, >but you could do square pretty easily when you are gluing >up your benchtop. There is an immediate silence. Someone just plain drops his glass of lemonade. Eyes dart back and forth looking for an indication of chaos breaking out. Quietly, some start to back away into the bushes. This causes others to think they need to get out of Donnybrook before another free-for-all. This question has initiated holy wars before and no one wants to be part of another one. Now a full-scale hysterical evacuation starts with galoots diving under the porch, making Henry Shearer a little uncomfortable with this unusual company. Seeing an opportunity to defuse the situation, I step forward and offer, "You see Shannon, this is touchy subject around here. Perhaps you can hit the history books provided by eGroups or the Oldtools archives to spare another civil war. And may I also recommend a search of Dejanews for the scholarly exchange of opinions between O'Deen and Bennett in wreck.woodworking?" Regards, Steve - looking to win the Nobel Peace Prize Pssst, Shannon. Round is better. That is why God invented them. ---- Start of Message 65097 (thread 28033) ---- From: "Joe Duclos" Date: 1999-07-14 14:04:00 Subject: Re: Forged Holdfast Being the owner of half a dozen Emery holdfasts, I just want to offer that Brian made them from car & truck springs found at the junkyard. Joe Duclos Resident Cabinetmaker My Shop ---- Start of Message 65098 (thread 28033) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-07-14 13:59:00 Subject: Re: Forged Holdfast ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Reynolds To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, 14 July 1999 23:40 Subject: Re: Forged Holdfast > There you are a rockin' on the porch. All > snip of very comical stuff > Pssst, Shannon. Round is better. That is why > God invented them. > Yess! Never thought of that line of argument. Thanx. Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@n... http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den ---- Start of Message 65105 (thread 28033) ---- From: Ed_Balko@E... Date: 1999-07-14 18:27:00 Subject: Re: Steve's Big A** Bench - was Re: Forged Holdfast I raise a philosophical point here: Tom and Steve wrote: <#731 with a Lion chuck. That there is actually a #771 which, like Steve's recent Ebay acquisition, is also a 12" brace. I can't imagine us tackling the job with anything less than 12" braces. That maple is HARD stuff, especially compared to the poplar I used on my last project. The last couple of holes seemed to go a lot faster but the second glass of stout may have distorted my sense of time.>> With the jointer planes, there is clearly a faction which holds that manly plan e is the bigger, heavier #8; use of a #7 places one beneath contempt (Ms. Heller exempted of course). How does the reasoning go with bit braces? Does the manly Galoot pick up a 12" or 14" swing brace and loaf along with all of that mechanical advantage or does he pick up the 6" swing brace and show what he's made of? Ed Balko Middletown, New Jersey Aghast to have noted that Tom's posting was sullied by the mention of a bit of machinery ---- Start of Message 65113 (thread 28033) ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 1999-07-15 02:07:00 Subject: Re: Steve's Big A** Bench - was Re: Forged Holdfast Ed Balko wrote: > With the jointer planes, there is clearly a faction which holds that > manly plane is the bigger, heavier #8; use of a #7 places one beneath > contempt (Ms. Heller exempted of course). > > How does the reasoning go with bit braces? Does the manly Galoot pick up > a 12" or 14" swing brace and loaf along with all of that mechanical > advantage or does he pick up the 6" swing brace and show what he's made > of? Well, we were hardly loafing, struggling with that maple as we were. It's amazing but true that a 2" difference in swing (say from 10" to 12") can mean a noticeable difference in mechanical advantage. If I ever see a 16" brace at a reasonable price, I'm gonna buy it. > Ed Balko Middletown, New Jersey Aghast to have noted that Tom's posting > was sullied by the mention of a bit of machinery Oops. Heh, heh. Well then, I guess I won't divulge how Steve first suggested we start those dog holes. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Who Has A Distinct Slope To His Forehead From Pressing Down On The Brace Pad But Otherwise Feels, Like, Buffed W.F.M. Goss On Bench Planes is on The Galoot's Progress: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ++++ End of thread 28033 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28034 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65073 (thread 28034) ---- From: Mark van Roojen Date: 1999-07-13 22:48:00 Subject: SJB infill article in Home Shop Machinist I just thought I would post a heads up about an article in Home Shop Machinist about making the SJB infill kit. It is in two parts with the first part in the issue on the newsstands this month. I think I got the journal title right, but if I didn't it is a black and white format journal with gloosy pages that they tend to sell at Barnes and Noble and Borders. But they only have a few issues so they aren't on display long. I caught a claim or two in the article that I'm not sure are quite right, but the article looks decent. And the finished infill made the cover. Mark Mark van Roojen P.O. Box 83836 Department of Philosophy Lincoln, NE 68501-3836 University of Nebraska (402) 438-3724 (h) 1010 Oldfather Hall (402) 472-2428 (w) Lincoln, NE 68588-0321 (402) 472-0626 (fax) (msv@u...) Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/~mvr1 / ++++ End of thread 28034 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28035 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65074 (thread 28035) ---- From: Steve Jones Date: 1999-07-14 00:10:00 Subject: Berea KY stops this weekend GGs; SWMBO and I suddenly decided that this is the weekend for genealogy (Glasgow) and furniture-making (Berea) in Kentucky. The genealogy part (hers) will take until Saturday afternoon, leaving all day Sunday and Monday morning for Berea. Big question: is anything (Brian Boggs, Kelley Mehler, college gift shop, etc.) open in Berea on Sundays? Lesser question: Any suggestions? Thanks. Steve Jones Kokomo IN ++++ End of thread 28035 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28036 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65080 (thread 28036) ---- From: Eric Coyle Date: 1999-07-14 05:08:00 Subject: British plane blade mfg. info The Axminster Power tool center across the pond was kind enuf to send me a copy of their "review" which had amongst the powertool articles, a story about "Victor" plane blades being made by Clico. Sure sounded like a knock off of Mr. Hock's production- Hmm ain't that the best form of flattery??? Cowtown Eric ---- Start of Message 65100 (thread 28036) ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1999-07-14 10:44:00 Subject: Re: British plane blade mfg. info Whilst I'm a supprter of Rev Ron - I'll even volunteer to be his man over here, I believe Clico were there first. but then they come at blades from making the planes first. I have more Hock blades than Clico so I can say this. I believe (no actual proof) that Clico (Clifton Tool Company) were created from the rump of Record after some bean counter driven rationalisation. They produce Record 41 and 42 and a 'multi plane (55?) in disguise, anmd some other stuff. Reports on quality have been varied, with the several latest giving them a consistently clean bill of health on the quality front. I purchased Clico replacement blades for their 420 repro of the 42, but was keenly dissapointed. The blades are thicker, yes, but seem to have been attacked by an apprentice on a grinder to round off all the corners. Also, they don 't fit a 42. I heard good reports of the actual material/hardness quality (John/Paul?) but I can't use it. Richard Preferring the crispness of the Rev's product, even with the stealth surface finish Eric Coyle wrote: > The Axminster Power tool center across the pond was kind enuf to send me a > copy of their "review" which had amongst the powertool articles, a story > about "Victor" plane blades being made by Clico. > > Sure sounded like a knock off of Mr. Hock's production- Hmm ain't that the > best form of flattery??? > > Cowtown Eric > > -- ++++ End of thread 28036 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28037 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65083 (thread 28037) ---- From: Kenneth Watkins Date: 1999-07-14 07:03:00 Subject: Mathieson half spoon bits I picked up a box of Mathieson bits at a recent garage sale for cheap. Some of them are true spoon bits, others are (now?) shell type. About half are a type that I've never seen or heard discussed. They are 5-7" long and from 3/16 - 3/8. They are basically a spoon bit where half of the spoon has been cut away. Also, instead of a true tapered spoon, the back is a more abrupt ~35 degree angle. There are no notches in the tangs. Since there's not a lot of meat left on the tips, I initially assumed they used to be spoon bits that were on their way to becoming shells. Maybe an oldtimer's way of getting one more sharpening out of 'em first. But I don't think this is really the case. They're too regular and besides, if you have Dunbars' "Restoring...Tools" handy there's probably one of them in the rack o' bits on page 236, Illus. 379, second bit from the left in the back row. So, anybody know anything about these, what do you call em, who used em, advantages, disadvantages over spoons etc. Thanks, Kenneth Now if I could only find a small Spofford to go with them and the set of Mathieson center bits that were also in the box, I'd be in business. ---- Start of Message 65089 (thread 28037) ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 1999-07-14 11:43:00 Subject: Re: Mathieson half spoon bits --- Kenneth Watkins wrote: > I picked up a box of Mathieson bits at a recent > garage sale for cheap. > About half are a type that I've never seen or heard > discussed. They are basically a > spoon bit where half > of the spoon has been cut away. ++++++++ I think that these are "nose" bits, but I am at work and all my references are at home, so I can't look at any of the catalog reprints. Maybe someone else will fill us in on the advantages, uses, etc. === Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 28037 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28038 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65086 (thread 28038) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-07-14 07:20:00 Subject: neander perpendicular drilling - look ma, no dr*ll pr*ss! > > Steve Reynolds wrote: > > > > We drilled the 3/4" dogholes at a spacing > >influenced by the many kind responses to my > >request last week. I was using my new $7.50 12" > >Yankee #2100 with a Russell Jennings #12 bit. > > I'd like to say that we drilled the holes freehand because we are just > _so_ good at this but I made a couple of boring guides out of oak scrap. > I bored the guide holes with a 3/4" forstner bit on my dr*ll pr*ss. I > made these with a central block (plus guide hole) with the bottom > lamination having enough room on each side of the central block to clamp > to the bench top. These were a spectacular success and saved me the > trouble of having to cart my radial dr*ll pr*ss over to Steve's basement, > this being my back-up plan. > Guide block is also how I did the bolt holes for my Record 52 1/2 Vice. But I don't own a drill press. Or a boring machine. Or a post drill. But I have a brace. I got a piece of 3x2, and drilled a hole through it as best I could. (drilling across the grain. Didn't wanna drill end grain) Left-to-right was OK, but up-and-down was about 1/8 off. I found this by measuring hole centre to side-of-scrap distances on both faces. I found the hole centre by measuring to the lead of the drill bit! I had no way of making the hole true to the block. So I marked and planed the block true to the hole. First I made a SIDE parallel to the hole. Then I made the base (the important face...) square to this "face" side. I then clamped the block to the bench and drilled. BugBear. ++++ End of thread 28038 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28039 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65088 (thread 28039) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 1999-07-14 11:09:00 Subject: Re: neander perpendicular drilling - look ma, no dr*ll pr*ss! Paul Womack wrote: > I had no way of making the hole true to the block. So I > marked and planed ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > the block true to the hole. First I made a SIDE parallel to the hole. > Then I made the base (the important face...) square to this "face" side. I think this is a great idea --and I can hardly wait to get home and try it. But I a couple of questions/comments: 1] I think its true --in the general case-- that you would need two side surfaces parallel to the hole (i.e. to define an end surface that is square to the hole). To take an exagerated example: --------/---- | / | ------/------ If you'll forgive the ascii art, the hole is parallel to the face towards the user but still won't give the a end. (The two sides don't have to be mutually perpendicular --think of two adjacent sides on an octagonal cylinder-- just so long as they aren't themselves parallel.) 2] You also have the problem of how to determine that a side is parallel to the axis of the hole. Presumably you have to measure, but this could be problematic. Setting aside the fact that the lip of the hole is possibly too ragged to give sufficient accuracy, if the hole isn't already perpendicular to the end-surfaces, then the end of the hole is going to be an non-circular ellipse. To make matters worse, if the two ends of the block aren't parallel, then each end of the hole is going to be a different ellipse. Perhaps it would be useful to "extend" the hole by sliding a piece of appropriately-sized dowel through the hole and measuring from the edge of the dowel (i.e. either by placing the end of a square against the block-side or by placing the block on a flat surface and measuring up to the dowel). If a dowel of the right size is not available, the original drill-bit itself could be used. Nichael (Sorry for going on so long; but this is _so_ much more interesting than what I'm supposed to be thinking about.) ++++ End of thread 28039 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28040 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65090 (thread 28040) ---- From: Steve_Bussell@i... Date: 1999-07-14 12:06:00 Subject: Another plane typing question Assembled Galooti, As some of you may remember from one of my past plane "type" questions, I'm partial to type 11 bench planes. I'm not sure why, maybe just the look of the low knob or the bare lever cap. Anyway, I keep my eye out of bench planes of this type and have started to notice recently, that there seem to be quite a few planes showing up with all the type 11 characteristics except they have a tall knob (type 12). My first thought was that someone had replaced the knob, but there seems to be too many floating around for that coincidence. I know type studies are not an exact science and Stanley was great for using up what they had on the shelf, but has anyone else made this observation? Thanks, Steve Bussell ---- Start of Message 65095 (thread 28040) ---- From: Johnny Johnson Date: 1999-07-14 13:38:00 Subject: Re: Another plane typing question At 08:06 AM 7/14/99 -0400, Steve_Bussell wrote: >I know >type studies are not an exact science and Stanley was great for using up >what they >had on the shelf, but has anyone else made this observation? Yep Steve, about half of my type 11's have the high knob. It's my assumption that they were late in the production run since the knobs match the totes in wear/tear/finish. I also have an otherwise type 11 with a type 10 iron so I'm thinking that it was early in the production run. Thanks my story and I'm sticking to it! ;-) Johnny ---------------------------------------------- Johnny Johnson Lilburn, GA mailto:jjohnso4@b... ---- Start of Message 65102 (thread 28040) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-07-14 17:17:00 Subject: Re: Another plane typing question Steve Bussell writes : >Anyway, I keep my eye out of bench planes of this type and have started to >notice recently, >that there seem to be quite a few planes showing up with all the type 11 >characteristics >except they have a tall knob (type 12). This has bugged me as well. I vote we define a new type, type 11-1/2, that is a three-patent-date plane with a high knob. The type 11 would then be the three-patent-date low knobber. Just yesterday I bought a type 11-1/2 No 4C (with perfect wood :-). Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 65106 (thread 28040) ---- From: "Erik von Sneidern" Date: 1999-07-14 19:10:00 Subject: Re: Another plane typing question I have a #3 smoother, type 12 1/4 or something like that. 1910 patent date, SW iron, and a high knob like a type 12. Now either someone liked a small adjuster nut on the frog or it simply came that way. The frog is a type 12 with the longer ribbing in back. I prefer the larger frog adjusting nut to the 1" size. I can adjust it with my index finger alone while the small one doesn't allow that. Erik von Sneidern ---- Start of Message 65110 (thread 28040) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-07-15 01:08:00 Subject: Re: Another plane typing question At 1:17 PM -0400 7/14/99, wrote: >Steve Bussell writes : >there seem to be quite a few planes showing up with all the type 11 >>characteristics except they have a tall knob (type 12). And Paul Pedersen added: >This has bugged me as well. I vote we define a new type, type 11-1/2, >that is a three-patent-date plane with a high knob. The type 11 would >then be the three-patent-date low knobber. This exchange prompted me to do a closer comparison of my favorite T11 #3 smoother (with earlier "T" logo blade), and a very similar #3C I recently snagged, that I had typed as a 12 because it has an original-looking high knob *and* the same 3 patent dates as the T11. That is consistent with the version of the type study I use most often, Roger K. Smith's as reprinted in the '96 Walter GUIDE. IOW, the T12 continued with the 3 patent dates, but had a high knob, a larger adjustment nut (1 1/4"), and the ribs on the back of the frog extend higher than before. Now I look again at the #3C, it has the 3 patent dates, high knob, and longer frog ribs. *But* it has the smaller (earlier?) adjustment nut (1 1/32"OD), the lever cap has the (KK) STANLEY in notched rectangle that supposedly wasn't introduced until T13 in 1925 (when the earlier 2 of the 3 pat. dates were dropped from the bed casting), and the lever itself is longer and less curved than earlier, clearly seen by lining it up back to back with an older lever cap. The blade as found was the (AA) "later Sweetheart," with the heart dropped out of the rectangle, which is consistent with late T12 (post-1923) through 1935. All of which reinforces the now-commonplace that the type studies are approximate, especially around the edges, but they're a start, and provide a base and a range. So instead of attempting to define fractional types in a way that is bound to be even more arbitrary and variable, I vote for approximations, and would now describe the #3C in question as a late T12, but (interestingly) with a small adjustment nut. Or, if enough people chime in, along with me and Erik von Sneidern, that their T12s also have small adjustment nuts, we can remove the "interesting" part, and revise the type study. One more detail: I can't get my (thicker) Hock replacement iron to fit in the T11 #3. Move the frog back and the underside of the iron bottoms out on the rear edge of the mouth. Move the frog forward and the cutting edge catches on the front edge of the mouth. But despite a minimally wider mouth opening of the T12, the Hock iron fits it just fine without modification. Tom Holloway, thinking that one unintended consequence of the demise of FMM is that we get fewer such detailed Type-and-variations descriptions on the list. ---- Start of Message 65120 (thread 28040) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-07-15 03:10:00 Subject: Re: Another plane typing question [Jeff, if I were you, I wouldn't read the following...] Tom Holloway jumps in : > This exchange prompted me to do a closer comparison of my favorite >T11 #3 smoother (with earlier "T" logo blade), and a very similar #3C I >recently snagged, that I had typed as a 12 because it has an >original-looking high knob *and* the same 3 patent dates as the T11. That >is consistent with the version of the type study I use most often, Roger K. >Smith's as reprinted in the '96 Walter GUIDE. IOW, the T12 continued with >the 3 patent dates, but had a high knob, a larger adjustment nut (1 1/4"), >and the ribs on the back of the frog extend higher than before. Just to muddy the waters a bit more, the No 4C that I picked up yesterday has 3 patent dates, high knob, low ribs, rounded lever cap, and small adjuster. This I'd call a high knob type 11. I have an identical No 4 except that it has a low knob. I have a 3 patent date No 3 that has low knob, rounded lever cap, small adjuster BUT it has the high ribs behind the frog :-) BTW, I don't believe Jay's online type study mentions this bit about the ribs. I don't believe I've ever seen a 3 patent date plane with a large depth adjuster. Finally, take a look at the picture of the types 11 and 12 depth adjusters in Jay's type study at : http://peta.ee.cornell.edu/~jay/ww/planes/ob/ts/ts_depth_knobs.jpg If I'm seeing correctly, the plane on the left is a type 13 with a small depth adjuster ? I must say it'd been a while since I took my Stanleys off the shelf. Where'd they all come from, anyway ? ---- Start of Message 65128 (thread 28040) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-07-15 14:41:00 Subject: Re: Another plane typing question At 11:10 PM -0400 7/14/99, Paul Pedersen wrote: >take a look at the picture of the types 11 and 12 depth >adjusters in Jay's type study at : > > http://peta.ee.cornell.edu/~jay/ww/planes/ob/ts/ts_depth_knobs.jpg > >If I'm seeing correctly, the plane on the left is a type 13 with a >small depth adjuster ? Yep--One pat. date, APR-19-10, and small adj. knob. We may be on to something. So here's the challenge, folks, without the fine print: Does anyone out there have one or more Type 12 Stanley planes with the *larger* adjustment nut? If not, then surely we have a large enough "population" on this list to suggest a revision in the type study. And for those who need fine print: Paw through your accumulation and look for Stanley planes with 3 patent dates in the sole behind the frog but which have high knobs that seem to be original. Look further to see if the reinforcing ribs on the back of the frog come higher (to within about 3/8" of the top of the frog, noticeably longer than the earlier ribs, which come to within about 3/4" from the top, at least on the #3 smoothers I'm comparing). Then check out the depth adjuster nut. Is it the smaller 1" across? Or is it considerably larger, about 1 1/4"? If we consistently find the former, i.e. T12 planes with small adjuster nuts, then we'll need to be prepared to send shock waves reverberating through the Stanley plane-obsessed faction of the old tool community. And what an awesome sense of power and accomplishment that will give us . To start at the top level of Jay Sutherland's web-based discursus on these matters, point your browers to: http://peta.ee.cornell.edu/~jay/ww/planes/ Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 65135 (thread 28040) ---- From: "Brent D. Beach" Date: 1999-07-15 17:00:00 Subject: Re: Another plane typing question On Wed, 14 Jul, Tom Holloway wrote: >One more detail: I can't get my (thicker) Hock replacement >iron to fit in the T11 #3. Move the frog back and the >underside of the iron bottoms out on the rear edge of the >mouth. Move the frog forward and the cutting edge catches on >the front edge of the mouth. But despite a minimally wider >mouth opening of the T12, the Hock iron fits it just fine >without modification. The maximum blade thickness is determined by 3 things: - the width of the mouth - the thickness of the sole just behing the mouth - the primary bevel angle If you want to try the thicker iron in the type 11, try a smaller primary bevel angle, perhaps primary of 20 degrees and secondary of 25 degrees. You can maintain an included angle of 30 degrees (for improved edge durability) by using a back bevel of 5 degrees. A blade with this smaller primary bevel is not as strong, but should be ok if only used for light finishing cuts. >thinking that one unintended consequence of the demise of FMM >is that we get fewer such detailed Type-and-variations >descriptions on the list. It is much quieter on the porch. Its probably a good thing, since we are all getting older. Brent Brent Beach, Victoria, BC, CA ---- Start of Message 65144 (thread 28040) ---- From: jenisi@b... Date: 1999-07-15 20:45:00 Subject: Re: Another plane typing question After looking at his #3, and #3c T-11's Tom wrote: > "All of which reinforces the now-commonplace that the type studies >are approximate, especially around the edges, but they're a start, and >provide a base and a range. So instead of attempting to define fractional >types in a way that is bound to be even more arbitrary and variable, I vote >for approximations, and would now describe the #3C in question as a late >T12, but (interestingly) with a small adjustment nut. Or, if enough people chime in, along with me and Erik von Sneidern, >that their T12s also have small adjustment nuts, we can remove the >"interesting" part, and revise the type study." OK, here's another one that makes no sense. Got a #4, everyhting on it says a type 11, except it has the larger depth adjustment knob. More evidence, IMHO that stanley frankenplaned when faced with extra model parts. Any thoughts? Ed IB Buffalo, NY ---- Start of Message 65241 (thread 28040) ---- From: Scott Stager Date: 1999-07-22 21:11:00 Subject: Re: Another plane typing question I have an anecdote that pretty much supports the philosophy that one should pay no attention to lever caps and cap irons when trying to date and type planes. Early in my oldtool interest period I glommed onto what I thought was a usable Stanley #5 at a local going out of business auction. It had a broken tote top, but the rest looked OK. When I finally got to really looking at it I found it had the strangest cap iron I had ever seen. Only two years later, after Oldtools and reading B&G did I come to the realization that the cap iron was for a #10 (Bench Rabbit, Jeff). The Iron was a straight #5 size, but the cap Iron was the shovelheaded shark #10 cap iron - no doubt about it. Looked real strange screwed to the straight iron. So, who knows how many hands have dis-assembled and re-assembled the cap and iron on a bench plane. In particular in a well equipped shop, populated by a number of woodworkers and a variety of planes, I would suspect that irons and cap irons migrate around pretty freely. No, there was no #10 in attendance at that auction, but it was an auction of a woodworking shop going out of business. I had to fight with an anteek maul person for the #5, but she bailed out before I had to go to $20. Then I got a couple of smoothers for under $15 - scared her off I did :0) -Scott No, I don't want to trade the #10 cap for a #5. It is a spare for the #10 I finally bought (but nowhere near as cheap as the #10). At 06:07 PM 7/15/99 +0000, Minch wrote: >Ed wrote: > >>OK, here's another one that makes no sense. Got a #4, everyhting on it >>says a type 11, except it has the larger depth adjustment knob. > >I have a type 11 #3 in great shape EXCEPT that the lever cap has a >notched "STANLEY" as begun on the type 13. > >Ed Minch > +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Scott Stager - Blacksmith/woodworker wannabe | | (University of Missouri) ccstager@s... | | Work Phone: (573)-882-9289 | | Home Phone: (573)-474-5955 | ++++ End of thread 28040 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28041 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65092 (thread 28041) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1999-07-14 13:24:00 Subject: Tool shoppin' at Shannon's - 1873 Greetings, I've recently acquired a reprint of an _Illustrated Catalogue and Price List of Carpenters' Tools._ put out by "J. B. Shannon, 1009 Market Street, Philadelphia, Penn'a." (Catalogue No. 7, August 1873) [Though I'm certain it's a reprint and purchased it as such, there is no indication of the date and publisher of the reprint. Anyone know when this may have been reprinted and by whom?] In leafing through this specialty catalogue, my attention was immediately arrested by the following listings headings: WM. BUTCHER & ISAAC GREAVES' CELEBRATED PLANE IRONS WM. BUTCHER & ISAAC GREAVES' CELEBRATED FIRMER CHISELS WM. BUTCHER & ISAAC GREAVES' CELEBRATED FIRMER GOUGES WM. BUTHER AND ISAAC GREAVES' LONG THIN PARING CHISELS The listings under each of these headings simply gives the size and price per item - effectively treating the tools by Butcher and Greaves as interchangeable. At first I was puzzled by this as there is no indication of any connection between these two Sheffield firms. Then, I realized that I was probably seeing, in Philadelphia, a direct outcome of the price setting carried on by the Sheffield Edge Tool Manufacturers from as early as 1824. According to Ken Roberts in _Some 19th Century English Woodworking Tools_, this may have started as early as 1814, but is definitely documented from 1824 and then revised in 1836, 1846, 1853, 1864 and 1872. Roberts reproduces a notice from the 1836 meeting, showing that William & Samuel Butcher, as well as Isaac Greaves, were among the participants. Also, note that the last date given, 1872, is just a year prior to the Shannon Catalogue. With the concentration of edge tool manufacturing in Sheffield, it's easy to imagine the cut-throat competition which could have been rampant without such an arrangement. No firm, regardless of the quality of its product, would have been able to withstand the predation of another firm with better capitalization were it bent on eliminating competition. But, was the journeyman joiner in Philadelphia being charged an artifically high price for these English goods as a result of this price fixing? Or, were the Sheffield manufacturers mindful of potential and existent competition from other areas of tool manufacture? Luckily, the J. B. Shannon catalogue contains a listing for Buck Bros. firmer gouges which allows us to do a little "comparison shopping." One representative example: Wm. Butcher & Isaac Greaves Celebrated Firmer gouges. ... 3/4 inch . . . each 30c. Buck Brother Firmer Gouges, Beveled inside or outside. ... 3/4 inch . . . each 35c. I find this very interesting for a couple of reasons. First, I think it quite striking that the same tool could be manufactured in Sheffield, then transported to Philadelphia and sold for less than one manufactured and transported from Millbury, Mass. Second, in light of the esteem in which Sheffield tools were widely held, it's noteable that the Buck Bros. tools were not being offered as an inexpensive local product. Of course, the lower selling price for the Butcher and Greaves gouges reflects more than restraint in the price fixing process. Roberts outlines the relatively large number of steps as well as some of the specialized equipment (moulds or "moods", eg) used in the manufacture of edge tools, and Sheffield firms enjoyed an immense advantage with the ready access to cast steel and a very high degree of specialization. Then, *of course*, I turned my attention to the wooden stock planes. Shannon's offered a fairly representative selection of bench and specialty planes (rabbet, dadoes, raising planes, filletster, side rabbet, match, and grooving plows). As to moulding planes, the only offerings were nosing, washboard, bead and reeding, as well as hollows and rounds. They list bench planes from three different manufacturers. One page lists smoothing, jack, fore and jointer planes from Howlands and Chapins. They're fairly close in price, one such example being: Howland's Smoothing Planes, Beech, Double Iron, 2 to 2 1/4 in. ea. 90. Chapin's " " " " " " ea. $1 00 On a separate page is their premium line of planes: VEIT'S CITY MADE WARRANTED BENCH PLANES With W. & S. Butcher's Celebrated Plane Irons. This page lists smoothing, jack and fore planes. To compare: Smoothing Plane, Beech, Double Iron, 2 to 2 1/4 in., each $1 90 This is quite a jump in price from the Howland's and Chapin's planes. While the presence of Butcher's plane irons in these planes is part of the justification for the higher price, this doesn't seem to be the complete picture. For example, one could have purchased a Chapin's 2" smoothing plane at $1.00 and a Butcher cut iron, as listed, for 35 cents (40 cents for a 2 1/4" iron) and had a smoothing plane with a Butcher iron for considerably less than the Veit plane. In fact, Butcher and Greaves'full double irons are listed at 65 cents for a 2", and 75 cents for a 2 1/4". This would still have represented a bit of a savings over purchasing the Veit's plane. It seems clear that Shannons weren't only offering the premium of the Butcher plane irons, but the advantage of these planes being warranted by a local manufacturer. I have no idea what percentage of their trade was in the Veit's planes, but Pollak's list John Veit as: "A prolific planemaker in Philadelphia, Pa. 1857-99 ..." One other thing caught my eye with regard to this premium line of Veit's planes. Under the smoothing planes, they list: Smoothing Plane, Beech, Single Iron, 2 to 2 1/4", each $1 60 " " Apple " " " " 1 75 It is commonly and widely assumed that single irons and single iron planes continued to be available for the sole purpose of catering to those "too cheap" to buy a "good" plane. In general, of course, they are less expensive - the Howlands and Chapins single iron smoothers are listed at 55 and 65 cents, respectively. On the other hand, here we have them available in a premium line, even in apple wood, for prices well above the double iron planes listed from Chapins and Howlands. It would seem clear that these offerings were not aimed to those *only* interested in price. Nor, would it seem that they were aimed at those who wanted a "better" iron, but were "too cheap" to pay for a double iron plane. As already pointed out, they could have purchased a Chapin double iron plane and a Butcher cut iron to have a double iron plane with a Butcher iron for $1.35 or $1.40 - still quite a bit less than the Veit's single iron plane at $1.60. Interesting what one learns shoppin' at Shannon's, 1873 style. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 65103 (thread 28041) ---- From: SSalbWW@a... Date: 1999-07-14 17:59:00 Subject: Re: Tool shoppin' at Shannon's - 1873 I live in Washington, D.C., and go down to Colonial Williamsburg every now and then. The folks there talk about the fact that England was producing hundreds of times the quantity that could be produced locally (at least relative to the time that Williamsburg portrays -- mid and late 18th c.). They'd have one guy who ONLY made nails, all day long starting at age 3 (or 13 or whatever ), as compared to the locals who had huge problems in production (where to get charcoal when all the local timber had been cleared by the middle or end of the 18th c., etc) and who had to be generalists within their trade. In a message dated 7/14/99 8:24:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Don.McConnell@a... writes: > Wm. Butcher & Isaac Greaves Celebrated Firmer gouges. > ... 3/4 inch . . . each 30c. > > Buck Brother Firmer Gouges, Beveled inside or outside. > ... 3/4 inch . . . each 35c. > > I find this very interesting for a couple of reasons. First, I > think it quite striking that the same tool could be manufactured > in Sheffield, then transported to Philadelphia and sold for less > than one manufactured and transported from Millbury, Mass. Second, > in light of the esteem in which Sheffield tools were widely held, > it's noteable that the Buck Bros. tools were not being offered as > an inexpensive local product. ++++ End of thread 28041 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28042 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65099 (thread 28042) ---- From: Jerry Davis Date: 1999-07-14 13:41:00 Subject: Interesting bench I saw an interesting bench this weekend. It looked like one pictured on Tony Seo's website it that it had slanted legs at the left end ( when viewed by a right handed worker) of the bench. The top appeared to be a solid slab with the legs mortised into it. It had a leg vice with the wooden screw attached to the benchtop and the bottom attachment slid through the bottom of the slanted leg, leaving an open triangular area between the vise and leg. The bench was kinda low, I'm 5'8" and the top was about two inches below my palm. There was a large clamp mechanism laying on the bench and was similarly aged so I guess they were together. It was like two facing leg vises and resembled attachments I've seen on sitting benches for leather workers or broom makers or some such. I didn't see how it would have attached to the bench, parts could have been broken or missing. It also still had a planing stop jammed into the top. It was the kind where a flat piece of iron is bent at a 45 degree angle with a serrated edge. It was real old and the wood was badly bleached and aged from sunlight and exposure to the elements. The person selling it had it sitting outside this weekend and it rained, making it a soggy, spongy mess. Still it was interesting and worth checking out before resuming the quest for good junk. Jerry ++++ End of thread 28042 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28043 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65104 (thread 28043) ---- From: Chris Dunn Date: 1999-07-14 18:11:00 Subject: Question regarding "Stanley Boys Tool Box" I saw this item on that electronic auction site and was wondering if the description was correct: STANLEY BOYS TOOL BOX WITH TOOLS http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=128652110 UNNUMBERED BOYS TOOL BOX WITH 13 TOOLS ALL BELIEVED TO BE ORIGINAL. NOT ALL MARKED STANLEY BUT BELIEVED TO BE CONTRACT MANUFACTURED FOR STANLEY TOOL KITS. SAW MARKED "BOY'S FRIEND" BOX AND CONTENTS ALL IN G+ COND. ONE HINGE ON LID NEEDS REPAIR. HANDLE ON HAMMER MAY NOT BE ORIGINAL. PARTIAL LABEL ON OUTSIDE OF LID. Unfortunately, the auction pictures are gone - however, the "set" included tools that were clearly not Stanley tools. The box was indeed Stanley as it had a sizable, intact decal. Did Stanley actually sell such a set? The eggbeater drill with its distinctive red, curved spoked wheel looked very Millers Falls-ish to me and I have a hard time believing that Stanley would sanction a product with a MF tool in it! Does anyone care to comment on this? Anybody know of such an offering by Stanley? Thanks! Chris ++++ End of thread 28043 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28044 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65107 (thread 28044) ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 1999-07-14 19:33:00 Subject: Re: Brace size: Was: Steve's Big A** Bench - was Re: Forged Holdfast --- Ed_Balko@E... wrote: > > > I raise a philosophical point here: > > > How does the reasoning go with bit braces? Does > the > > manly Galoot pick up a 12" > > or 14" swing brace and loaf along with all of that > > mechanical advantage or does > > he pick up the 6" swing brace and show what he's > > made of? > > +++++++ When my boys were young, they used the 12 or 14 inch braces when possible- the 6" ones were for places that the big ones didn't fit in. Usually a 10" brace works well for "normal" work, unless it is something like turning out an old rusty screw, and then the smaller swing brace makes sense, because the reduced leverage lessens the possibility of overpowering and breaking the screw. So, in the interests of appearing "galootish", we should be grasping the auger bit in our fist and boring away without any of these fancy wood and iron devices. === Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 65108 (thread 28044) ---- From: Minch Date: 1999-07-14 19:33:00 Subject: Re: Brace size: Was: Steve's Big A** Bench - was Re: Forged Date: (Date Unavailable) Nichael wrote concerning the "perpendicular doghole" problem. The only precision needed here is the the "squareness" of the hole to the bottom of the jig. The top and the four sides don't mean anything. Strikes me an easy way would be to put an appropriately sized dowel (or the original bit) through the hole and out the bottom a coupla inches, then using one of the L-shaped pieces of rosewood and steel that we all have too many of, check the squareness at a coupla locations - at least 2 spots (90 degrees from each other around the circumference of the hole). A little planing, a little measuring, and it would be easy to get to the level of precision required for perpendicular dogholes. Ed Minch Hoping I am not missing something ---- Start of Message 65109 (thread 28044) ---- From: Phil and Debbie Koontz Date: 1999-07-14 23:31:00 Subject: Re: Brace size: Was: Steve's Big A** Bench - was Re: Forged Holdfast Ed Balko and Jim Erdman brought it up-- > I raise a philosophical point here: > How does the reasoning go with bit braces? Does > the manly Galoot pick up a 12" > or 14" swing brace and loaf along with all of that > mechanical advantage or does > he pick up the 6" swing brace and show what he's > made of? Ya all know I can't resist a philosophical point. It's a sad failing: I think the manly galoot would natcherly use the 14" brace with a big bit; size 20 and up. Of course, I always have a hard time trying to figure out what to do with those big holes when I just needed 1/2" or so... "Testosterone--often confused with stupidity." Whatever that means. And what about square _holdfasts_? (Just pretend you didn't hear that, guys) Phil Koontz Self medicating with Rattlesnake Pale Ale. In Kansas. ++++ End of thread 28044 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28045 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65111 (thread 28045) ---- From: Gary Roberts Date: 1999-07-15 02:42:00 Subject: about this stanley 10 1/2 So I'm curious... had anyone used a 10 1/2 ribbet plane for cabinetry or furniture work? I can imagine its usefullness for carpentry and framing, but it seems a bit overkill for fine joinery. I'ld be curious to hear from anyone who has used one for such work. Gary Roberts Dedham, MA...Antique tools, Art Pottery, Hong Kong cinema, what else is there? ---- Start of Message 65139 (thread 28045) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-07-15 17:23:00 Subject: Re: about this stanley 10 1/2 At 9:42 PM -0500 7/14/99, Gary Roberts wrote: >So I'm curious... had anyone used a 10 1/2 ribbet plane for cabinetry or >furniture work? I can imagine its usefullness for carpentry and framing, >but it seems a bit overkill for fine joinery. Ain't gonna claim it's "fine joinery," but I've used mine to clean up tenons and shoulders, to good effect. If you've got tenons longer than the width of the blade on your usual #78-type rabbet/fillister, a #10 1/2 can be real handy. Tuned right, being able to use it close up to either side, without changing directions, is a plus. Also, I like the Bailey depth adjuster and the real tote *and* knob, for control and familiar feel. Tom Holloway, expecting the price of these to climb even further, now that they have apparently been dropped from English Stanley new production. ++++ End of thread 28045 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28046 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65116 (thread 28046) ---- From: Steve Jones Date: 1999-07-15 01:29:00 Subject: Berea Thanks to Doug, Tom, Ron and others, I found out enough to decide that our time in Berea should be worthwhile. As for Glasgow, well, SWMBO nixed the cave and says she needs me to help her with the genealogy research. Fair enough; it's my family she's researching. Marginal OT content: I have the rifle that my great-grandfather who was born near Mammoth Cave carried in the Battle of Vicksburg with the First Illinois (U.S. Civil War, Jeff). Steve Jones a Yankee in Kokomo IN ++++ End of thread 28046 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28047 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65117 (thread 28047) ---- From: Don Stern Date: 1999-07-15 02:47:00 Subject: test test ++++ End of thread 28047 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28048 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65118 (thread 28048) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-15 09:49:00 Subject: Made a killer plane Finally I made a wood plane that will do birds eye maple. YES. made it out of a chunk of maple from a pallet. The mouth could be a hair tighter Silly me set it with my slightly curved iron. But I did birdseye and a knot on a hunk of walnut without tearout. It still tears on the Tropical wood from hell. I think I even got some tearout with my scraper on it. Life is good with a good plane Tearout Happens Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ++++ End of thread 28048 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28049 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65119 (thread 28049) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-15 09:52:00 Subject: Infill planes Well after looking at several pic's of the norris and others all I can say is They are Butt ugly. How ca na fine tool look so ugly? is it just me? Hopefully I will be making a infill or two soon. If the machinist can make the u channel. I guess he will bend it from flat stock. Not sure if I will have a fla t bottom on it. If not I may just have to go to a steel sole on the bottom of my planes. Got some great myrtle wood grown here in oregon for the wood part. Was going to use padok killer wood but may be too much. Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ---- Start of Message 65127 (thread 28049) ---- From: Andres Sender Date: 1999-07-15 14:38:00 Subject: Re: Infill planes At 02:52 AM 7/15/99 GMT, you wrote: >Well after looking at several pic's of the norris and others all I can say is >They are Butt ugly. How ca na fine tool look so ugly? is it just me? It's just you. Andres ---- Start of Message 65138 (thread 28049) ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 1999-07-15 17:20:00 Subject: Re: Infill planes --- Andres Sender wrote: > At 02:52 AM 7/15/99 GMT, you wrote: > >Well after looking at several pic's of the norris > and others all I can say is > >They are Butt ugly. How ca na fine tool look so > ugly? is it just me? > > It's just you. > No, it's not just you. Glad I'm not the only one that thinks that they are kind of ugly. === Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 28049 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28050 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65121 (thread 28050) ---- From: garyallan may Date: 1999-07-15 07:17:00 Subject: SHE In H. Rider Haggard's novel SHE we find the origin of SWMBO: here we find out to what lengths... ...as he lay dying, he smelled the aroma of his favorite chocolate chip cookies wafting up the stairs. He gathered his remaining strength, and lifted himself from the bed. Leaning against the wall, he slowly made his way out of the bedroom, and with even greater effort forced himself down the stairs, gripping the railing with both hands. > > With labored breath, he leaned against the door-frame, gazing into the kitchen. Were it not for his agony, he would have thought himself already in heaven: there, spread out upon newspapers on the kitchen table were literally hundreds of his favorite chocolate chip cookies. > > Was this heaven? Or one final gesture of eternal love from his devoted wife, seeing to it that he left this world a happy man? Mustering one final heroic effort, he threw himself toward the table, landing on his knees in a crunching heap. His lips parted: the taste of cookies already in his mouth, seemingly bringing him back to life. His trembling hand made its way to a cookie at the edge of the pile, when it was suddenly smacked with a spatula... > > "Stay out of those," said his wife, "they're for the funeral." I don't know exactly what my wife had in mind when she sent me this??? Maybe someone on the porch has an opinion...Regards: GAM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 65122 (thread 28050) ---- From: SSalbWW@a... Date: 1999-07-15 12:06:00 Subject: Re: SHE In a message dated 7/15/99 3:21:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, garyallanmay@y... writes: > His trembling hand made its way to a cookie at > the edge of the pile, when it was suddenly smacked with a spatula... > > > "Stay out of those," said his wife, "they're for the funeral." WARPED! -S. ---- Start of Message 65143 (thread 28050) ---- From: "Joseph Neustein" Date: 1999-07-15 18:47:00 Subject: Re: SHE Made me laugh out loud , or as they say on the web, LOL!!!! Thanks. Joe Neustein -----Original Message----- From: garyallan may To: OLDTOOLS@l... Date: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:25 AM Subject: SHE >In H. Rider Haggard's novel SHE we find the origin of SWMBO: here we >find out to what lengths... > >...as he lay dying, he smelled the aroma of his favorite chocolate chip >cookies wafting up the stairs. He gathered his remaining >strength, and lifted himself from the bed. Leaning against the wall, he >slowly made his way out of the bedroom, and with even greater effort >forced himself down the stairs, gripping the railing with both hands. >> > With labored breath, he leaned against the door-frame, gazing into >the kitchen. Were it not for his agony, he would have thought >himself already in heaven: there, spread out upon newspapers on the >kitchen table were literally hundreds of his favorite chocolate chip >cookies. >> > Was this heaven? Or one final gesture of eternal love from his >devoted wife, seeing to it that he left this world a happy man? >Mustering one final heroic effort, he threw himself toward the table, >landing on his knees in a crunching heap. His lips parted: the taste >of cookies already in his mouth, seemingly bringing him back to life. >His trembling hand made its way to a cookie at >the edge of the pile, when it was suddenly smacked with a spatula... >> > "Stay out of those," said his wife, "they're for the funeral." > >I don't know exactly what my wife had in mind when she sent me this??? >Maybe someone on the porch has an opinion...Regards: GAM >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > >-- > > ++++ End of thread 28050 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28051 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65123 (thread 28051) ---- From: "DuPrie, James" Date: 1999-07-15 12:07:00 Subject: how to sharpen a reel mower? OK, OK, I know its not the "normal" type of oldtool, but I have an old reel-type lawnmower (actaully, its my moms - she brings new meaning to "luddite"), adn it desperately needs cleaning, adjusting adn sharpening. By lookinga t it, I can tell that the sheer plate or whatever you call it - the hunk o metal that the nice curvy blades sheer across to cut) need to be adjusted - its about 1/8 inch from the blades. I even figured *how* to adjust it... Now for the real (reel?) question: when you sharpen one of these besties, what exactly do you sharpen? I t seems to me it would be a royal PITA to sharpen all those cool helical chunck of spinnable metal, so do you sharpen the sheer plate? If you *do* sharpen the reel, how in gods name do you do it wothout losing a finger? Someone out there has to know....... thanks --JD ---- Start of Message 65124 (thread 28051) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-07-15 12:30:00 Subject: Re: how to sharpen a reel mower? James It's a little tricky, but possible. Take the wheels off. One wheel is the drive wheel and has a little ratchet gear with a pin in it. Take out the pin and don't lose it. You need to make up a crank with a handle on it, that you can hang off the drive axle. Doesn't need to be fancy, just one that works. Get some valve grind compound from any auto parts and smear the blades and shear plate with it. Figure a way to hold the whole mess on a bench and adjust the shear plate for light drag on the blades. Crank the handle (and your blades) backwards until all the blades are shiny again where they meet the plate. You will probably have to stop and reapply the compound. Wash away the goop with kerosene or paint thinner and put it back together. It a pain, but the reel mower professional sharpeners have all gone by the wayside. Unless you have an "in" at a fancy golf course. Sometimes they use these in a gang and have one of the old power grinders. yours, Scott * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, 63742 Applegate Dr., Happy Camp, CA 96039 * scottg@s... PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/ ---- Start of Message 65129 (thread 28051) ---- From: Eric Damien Berna Date: 1999-07-15 15:30:00 Subject: Re: how to sharpen a reel mower? I bought a new reel mower a decade or so ago (I guess I have a long standing galootish streak), and it included instructions on how to sharpen it. I never tried, and have long since lost those instructions, so what I remember is sketchy. On my mower, there's some way of reversing something (a gear, the reel, a wheel, I forget which) so that the reel will run backwards. To sharpen the blades you just make this reversal, put an abrasive compound on the sheer plate, and march up and down the driveway (or any other paved surface). You may have to adjust the position of the sheer plate so that it makes good contact with the reel, and if the blades are very dull, you may have to adjust more than once. Clean the abrasive off, put it back to running the correct direction, and you've got a working old tool. Eric Damien Berna eric@t... ---- Start of Message 65131 (thread 28051) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-07-15 15:47:00 Subject: Re: how to sharpen a reel mower? > > James <> > It a pain, but the reel mower professional sharpeners have all gone by the > wayside. Unless you have an "in" at a fancy golf course. Sometimes they use > these in a gang and have one of the old power grinders. > yours, Scott All of this only applies to the USA. Here in England ANY mower shop will sharpen cylinders. The technique you describe is called back-lapping, and is looked down on by the pros. The reason is that the bevel you generate has no clearance (obviously, due to the way you're doing it). The proper (expensive) grinder manage to put a relief on the cylinder. For more, start here... http://www.artizan.demon.co.uk/olc/ BugBear ---- Start of Message 65145 (thread 28051) ---- From: SSalbWW@a... Date: 1999-07-15 21:07:00 Subject: Re: how to sharpen a reel mower? In a message dated 7/15/99 11:57:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bugbear@c... writes: > http://www.artizan.demon.co.uk/olc/ I don't know what's scarier . . . that there's an Old Lawnmower's Club or that nearly 6,000 of us have visited their web site!!! -Shannon ---- Start of Message 65148 (thread 28051) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-07-15 22:07:00 Subject: Re: how to sharpen a reel mower? Ok, enough is enough! I mean it's one thing to be a Neanderthal woodworker but this is going too far! What you do is you go get one of them gasoline powered monstrosities from Sears and then you rent a late model teenager for about $10. While this callow youth is is outside in the hot sun, ruining his hearing and choking on the fumes of a poorly tuned Briggs & Stratton, you can be in the quiet sanctuary of your wood shop peeling off see-through shavings of curly maple with your exquisitely set Lie Nielsen #4. Even better, fire up your forge and turn those pushmower blades into chisels and drawknives. Adam ++++ End of thread 28051 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28052 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65125 (thread 28052) ---- From: "Peterson, Samuel L." Date: 1999-07-15 12:53:00 Subject: Sawtill project - Prototypes being built Gentle galoots, I wanted to give the latest on the sawtill project. A fellow galoot did a prototype of the horizontal sawtill and the darn "fingers" didn't have enough strength and would keep breaking off. They were spaced 2" apart, and if we spaced them more the saw holding capacity went down. The point was also made that the saws might develop a sag or bow, if left in this position. So we once again opened up to all the possibilities and looked at vertical storage. The current vertical storage rack plan will hold 20 saws in a 24" wide till, and 30 or so saws in a 36" wide till. That is very hard to beat. We have a designer that has made a great measured drawing, complete with the option of having a open shelf or putting in a drawer. There are two of us making the prototype, so that all the bugs can be worked out. Hey, does anybody hear that? . . . . . . . . . . ugh ugh ugh ugh UGH UGH UGH. The anticipation grows! Sam Peterson In Columbia, MO ++++ End of thread 28052 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28053 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65126 (thread 28053) ---- From: Jim Bramel Date: 1999-07-15 14:00:00 Subject: Winchester Bit Brace I got a real deal on what appears to be a Winchester Bit Brace. It was in a box of cull stuff but the name Winchester really stood out the way the sun was shining on it. It only had one of the jaws - the "male" one. I call it that because it has the little thing-a-ma-jig at the bottom that goes into the hole of the other jaw. The thing-a-ma-jig was wedged into the threads of the chuck and appeared to be "frozen". When I asked the price he said $2.00. I asked if he could take a dollar and he said "it's all yours buddy". It has Winchester on the chuck and also on the curve just under the pad. It bothers me though that it is not the quality I expect from Winchester - no ratchet and the wood something light with a dark stain. In addition to Winchester, it says 3602-8IN. Can anyone help identify this brace? Thanks, Jim Bramel Phone: (606)257-2900 Ext. 263 224 McVey Hall Fax: (606)323-1978 University of Kentucky email: jbram00@p... Lexington, KY 40506-0045 ++++ End of thread 28053 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28054 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65130 (thread 28054) ---- From: John McDermott Date: 1999-07-15 15:47:00 Subject: Re: Neander perpendicular drilling GG's, I just bored mine freehand. Start slow and put a couple of squares nearby for reference. STOP BORING every two or three turns and check, until you get the cutting edges fully into the bench top. I find that is the biggest problem: not stopping to check. With my brace I can stop before the cutting lips touch, let go of the brace, and see if I am true. A small correction is still possible before the lips touch. It helped that I bored my dog holes before I put the top on the base, so the benchtop was at sawhorse height, instead of wrist height. John (in the Valley of Virginia, trying to teach the GIT to fish) ---- Start of Message 65154 (thread 28054) ---- From: JPagona@a... Date: 1999-07-15 23:24:00 Subject: Re: Neander perpendicular drilling Here is a methof that I used with an electron killer that could be easily adapted to neander drills. As a commercial trim carpenter, I often had to install electric locks. This requires drilling a hole from the middle hinge of the door to the lock mortise. That's a 5/8" hole drilled through a 1 3/4" thick door for a length of 32" to 36". I would clamp a metal rule onto a 4' level so that the end of the ruler could be used as an index against the side of the drill bit. I would then clamp the level to the door, put the point of the drill bit against the center mark of the hole and touch the side of the drill bit to the end of the ruler, and I would drill away. I never went through the side of a door using that method. For drilling dog holes, I would nail together 3 pieces of wood in a 'Z' shape so that it could be clamped to the bench at the bottom of the 'Z' and the edge of the top would index the drill bit. If the drill bit shaft were 1/2", then the index edge would be 1/4" off the center mark of the hole. A pencil mark on the index edge can be used as an index to keep the bit plumb at a right angle to the direction that the physical contact keeps it plumb. David Sobel ++++ End of thread 28054 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28055 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65132 (thread 28055) ---- From: "Rodgers Charles" Date: 1999-07-15 16:19:00 Subject: MAJOR LEAGUE, PEDRO MARTINEZ-CLASS GLOAT (LONG) Galoots: I suppose that a common interpretation of what constitutes a gloat is that the acquisition was inexpensive (as opposed to cheap) and of a low dollar cost. I like to think that it also means you get something that has greater a intrinsic value than the amount of money you spent for it. I feel that's the case in my latest purchase. An obligatory side note here to explain the subject line: Pedro Martinez is a baseball pitcher who was nothing short of perfect in Tuesday's Major League Baseball All Star game, Jeff. For Nuno, Paul & the other Galoots sitting on the Southern Hemisphere side of the porch - Pedro is what Graeme Lloyd wants to be. But I digress. Yesterday, I arrived at the home end of the daily rat race to find a cardboard box addressed to me. The return address was Eureka Springs, Arkansas. Now you know where this tale is headed - right, Sandy & Richard? To properly set the stage, you need to know the background. My employer is good to us revenue generators. After 5 years of faithful service, they give us a $100 dinner voucher, to be used at the fine restaurant of our choice. They don't expect it will cover the meal, but it's intended to subsidize a really good meal. To me, food is, well, only food. If my body didn't demand it, I probably wouldn't bother to eat. This irritates my wife (a great cook) and son (chef at a 4 star restaurant) to no end. But that's just how I view food. After all, no matter how much money you spend on it, it all turns out the same ;-) I guess that's why my 5-year voucher is still at home in the desk, now kept company by another voucher for 10 years employment here. But I digress. After 10 years, they also give a $300 gift certificate. Now, there was never any doubt in my mind where this money needed to go. I just had to facilitate SWMBO's understanding of the obvious. I knew what needed to be done, and after 30 years of marriage, I had a fair idea of how to do it. Timing is everything. That's why I casually opened up a conversation as we drove to Baltimore to see the Orioles play. She's a big fan and is always excited about going to see a game (and in a really good mood - why, she even allows me to smoke a cigar in the car on the way to the ballpark). I reminded her that the gift certificate was still lying around, and if I didn't make a conscious effort to use it, it would wind up like the dinner voucher(s). She agreed. I asked her if she thought it reasonable for me to spend it on myself, seeing as how it was meant for that, to somehow compensate me for the drudgery of holding a steady job. She agreed (did I say that she was in a good mood?). I mentioned that, since I'm doing more and more woodworking, the all-day trips to the sawmill and then on to the Navy base wood hobby shop to use their big pl*n*r were starting to take up a considerable amount of my very limited woodworking time. I mused as to how I felt that maybe I needed to acquire the means to prep the lumber and that certificate would go a long ways to paying for what was needed. Again, she thought that was reasonable. I then pulled out the big guns - I asked for her opinion. Did she think that a big, noisy, dirty, hazardous machine which would take up a lot of the already very limited space I have would be a good idea, or perhaps a hand plane or two that could do the same thing and give me the feeling of being in control, allow me to relax, and enjoy what I was doing - which is the reason I like this hobby, anyway, was wise? She observed as to how I didn't really have too much room, since she has trouble picking her way through all the clutter when I want to show her something, and that probably the hand plane approach would be best. My careful staging of that 'clutter' was paying off. Now, I have to admit that she did cast a suspicious eye when, less than 24 hours later, I had a phone call from Arkansas asking me for preferences. Her only comment was "You sure didn't waste any time." My witty reply was "Well, if I didn't do it right away, I would probably never do it." Or words to the effect. Enough background. Hopefully there's a tip somewhere in there that will serve a fellow Galoot. What follows is the essence of a note I sent to Larry this morning. __________________ Larry: Just a note to let you know the jack and smoother arrived yesterday. I spent a couple of hours last night getting familiar with them. You don't understate the patience needed to get the smoother set right. But when it is, WOW!!!! I have some black walnut that has been giving me problems in getting a smooth finish. Scrapers have given me the best surface so far, but I still wasn't happy. Your smoother left a surface that is honestly as smooth as glass. The grain reversals are absolutely smooth. It looks like the wood has been oiled, the way the grain stands out. It's as if I ran my fingertips across a glossy photo of the wood. [ed: A life-size, high resolution, 16 million color, full-color photo. Heck, I tested the statement in the literature which accompanied the planes that claims the smoother can be used against the grain. I planed from all angles and I'm happy to report that the claim is 100% correct.] I knew I was in for a treat as soon as I opened the box. I'm particular (some might call it anal) about packing and packaging. When I saw the care taken to ship the planes, I knew that this would be a product that the maker is proud of. And you should be. Everything about them perfect - fit, finish, appearance, function, etc. Just the small, perhaps insignificant and unnoticed by most people, detail of folding the tape over at the end to leave a tab that's easy to grab caught my attention. Also the fact that you used the painter's masking tape, which is easy to remove from the wrapping, impressed me. I will humbly offer two observations about the jack. Perhaps my hands are larger than average. And I figure they are for sure larger than the average 18th century workman's hands. The tote is just a little short for me to grip it with my full hand. The cap of the tote hits me just about in the middle of the index finger first knuckle. Even laying my pinkie along the body of the plane doesn't give me an ideal fit. If the tote were an inch taller, it would allow me to get a solid grip. That said, it isn't significant enough to keep me from enjoying the plane. The other observation is that, with just a dozen or so passes over the black walnut, the sole of the jack has some pretty sizable scoring in it. They aren't near the mouth, so it doesn't affect performance, but I'm wondering if maybe the beech isn't a bit soft for extended use on hardwoods? Any thoughts of maybe adding a sole of a harder wood? That said, the bottom line is that I'm ecstatic about the planes. I will (and already have) recommended them to everyone I talk to. Thanks to Bill and you for producing these fine tools. Regards, Charlie Rodgers ___________________ Apologies to all concerned if anyone takes exception to my observations about the jack. I think it is only fair of me to give a complete report of what I feel. They are just my opinions. The planes are everything they're advertised to be, and a lot more. If you decide that one of these planes belongs in your toolbox, you won't be sorry. Charlie Rodgers Clinton, Maryland Just say (tmPL), I can hardly wait until I hit the 15 year mark when the boss sweetens to deal to the tune of $1,000. I'm already window shopping;-) ++++ End of thread 28055 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28056 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65136 (thread 28056) ---- From: Kenneth Watkins Date: 1999-07-15 17:09:00 Subject: Book review:18th Cent. American Furniture (Loong) GG's, I've checked out this book a few times from the library and having not seen it mentioned anywhere else, I thought I'd review it. Besides pointing out a good book to you folks, I'd also like to ask a rather involved question brought up by the book (to follow later) that could involve extensive quoting. Any copyright problems here? The book is American Furniture of the 18th Century, History, Technique and Structure by Jeffrey P. Greene. Taunton Press, 1996. ISBN 1-56158-104-6. Mr. Green is a MIT engineer and self-taught furniture maker who operates the Ball and Claw in Rhode Island. The book is divided into three sections: The origins and evolution of American furniture styles; The methods and materials of the 18th century cabinetmaker; and Examples of style and stucture. The first section gives a concise but thorough history of the evolution and history of furniture design starting with the Jacobean and going through William and Mary, Queen Anne, Chippendale, Federal, and American Empire. Well illustrated, dense coverage of the forces and personalities at play in the evolution of styles with sufficient detail and anecdotes to answer most questions that might arise without going off the deep end into scholarly minutiae (for my taste anyway). Besides the product side of things, a reasonable space is allotted to the makers, their working relationships in the greater community, and the changes that took place during this period. Details such as Christoper Townsend's shop in Newport measured only 12x24 ft (my shop almost exactly, but he didn't have to contend with the kids' bicycles). To the changing labour conditions and bidness naturally leading to Journeymen organizing into societies or unions to fight for a living wage in the late 1700's. The result? They won the guarantee to be paid "one dollar a day for working eleven hours a day, six days a week, with the additional stipulation that the employers were to supply the candles." No doubt true scholars might find fault somewhere here, I don't know, but a clear entertaining history of the period in slightly over 100 pages in a small coffee table book is what I need. Part two, The methods and materials of the 18th century cabinetmaker is broken down into: Period surfaces and their making (a brief but very well done guide to the different tools from saws to planes, rasps to spokeshaves; Joinery (includes a drawer dissertation as well as a thesis on tabletop and foot attachment); Cabriole Legs, ball and claw feet (how to do it as well as a good description of the different geographical variations); Surface ornamentation (Fan and shell carving, veneering, inlays); Turning (good basic advice on turning, includes a picture of a beautious 1804 English lathe from colonial Williamsbug I'd like to know more about); Finishing materials and Techniques--only about 10 pages here but manages to cover a lot that I haven't seen anywhere else. Patina, luster, grime, period finishes and how to fake 'em, if that's your want. And see the appendix for recipes. Section Two concludes with a chapter on Measurements and Drawings. Though probably pretty basic to your average architect or draftsman, I've not seen any other woodworking source that discusses working drawing development so clearly. Tips on measuring originals in private collections as well as making working drawings by scaling from photographs are covered. Takes into account camera distortion due to perspective, foreshortening etc. and shows several approaches that can be used to reconstruct the elevation views from a photo. Vanishing points, horizon lines etc. are used to reverse draft the plan. Methinks you'll have to be a fairly anal draftsman to be able to take advantage of this approach (the errors might kill ya). But if your interest is in duplicating a historical piece, this and a sharp pencil (or a CAD program), might be your salvation. Part Three, Examples of Style and structure walks you through some fine examples of each of the periods covered. Starting with William & Mary and going through Queen Anne, Chippendale and Federal. For each piece there is a good photo and a exploded view construction detail with a discussion of "historical notes", "analysis", "related forms" and "structural notes". Absolutely awe-inspiring examples. Those Newport boys were geniuses. The book ends with some helpful appendices: Appendix I, Wood and wood movement; II, Chronology of illustrated publications (and oh what would you give to have these volumes in your personal library); Appendix III, Period varnish resins; Appendix IV Period Colorants; and Appendix V, Period finishing formulae. Lots of interesting stuff here. As a minor example, galoot wax formula is included with the added option of including two drams of alkenet root infused into the turpentine for that authentic red wax finish. Judging from the work itself and the final Bibliography, the author's a galoot. Check it out. Kenneth ++++ End of thread 28056 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28057 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65137 (thread 28057) ---- From: "George Langford, Sc.D." Date: 1999-07-15 20:21:00 Subject: Re: how to sharpen a reel mower? (add: thinly veiled FS) Hallo Jim & other cutting-edge Galoots ! James DuPrie went fishin' for advice: > ... an old reel-type lawnmower (actaully, its my moms - she > brings new meaning to "luddite"), adn it desperately needs > cleaning, adjusting adn sharpening. Before I sharpen one of these fine exercise machines, I first adjust the cutter bar so it goes "zzzzttt" evenly. The sound alone is fully satisfying. As a matter of fact, I've gone through two or three such lawnmowers since 1965 without ever needing to take the next step. I also oil them every year or two, at the same time as I de-weed the reel. This approach leaves more time for collecting & fixing productive tools. No, I didn't wear them out. They suffered unfortunate accidents. BTW, I currently have two surplus mowers, in case anyone wants to purchase one or two @ $15 each, OT. No catchers present. That's to make room for me to dress the top of my gloatable WB. Best regards, George Langford, just in from an outdoor lunch in incredible SE PA amenex@a... http://www.amenex.com/georgesbasement/ ++++ End of thread 28057 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28058 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65140 (thread 28058) ---- From: David Hegedusich Date: 1999-07-15 17:16:00 Subject: Shellac problems I just completed my first attempt at shellacing (small lidded box, made from white pine), and must say that I'm disappointed in my results. I ended up with lots of brush marks that I seemed to have to play with more than should be necessary to remove. Also, I got lots of drips, runs, and sags (particularly around corners that weren't immediately noticable when the shellac was still wet). I used "prepared" shellac in a can...they claim that it has a shelf life of 3 years, and this particular can was still "young." I thinned it to about a 1lb cut for the first coat, lightly sanded the raised grain, and then put on a couple of coats at about a 2lb cut, with no sanding in between. A couple of times I was so disappointed in the previous coat (after drying) that I wiped it off with alcohol, and tried again. I tried a couple of different types of brushes, to include a synthetic and china bristle. When I finally got the shellac on smoothly (i.e. no brush marks), I was left with a plasticy look, almost like poly-urinate....even after thinning the shellac back to about a 1lb cut. Everyone says how easy shellac is to apply, but that was not my experience. Any suggestions or ideas? David San Antonio, TX ---- Start of Message 65141 (thread 28058) ---- From: Steve Pugh Date: 1999-07-15 18:02:00 Subject: RE: Shellac problems David - I've always heard that the difference between canned and flake shellac was night-and-day. Haven't used my Paddylac enough to form my own confirmation, but you might consider that. Also, I've heard tell of people wiping shellac on and getting good results that way. I've also heard (geez, what a gossip!) that you get far better results with a primo brush, but it sounds like you have that covered. Keep the faith, man, it'll happen! > Everyone says how easy shellac is to apply, but that was not my > experience. Any suggestions or ideas? ---- Start of Message 65142 (thread 28058) ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 1999-07-15 18:07:00 Subject: Re: Shellac problems David Hegedusich wrote: > > I just completed my first attempt at shellacing (small lidded box, made > from white pine), and must say that I'm disappointed in my results. I > ended up with lots of brush marks Dave, Dave, Dave... :-). A few pointers, that you'll also find on my web site in my sig. First, for boxes it's ever so much easier to pre-finish the piece before assembly. This elimates the problem of the finish gobbing-up in a corner. As a bonus, glue mishaps pop right off. Drips, sags, runs and other problems are easily remedied with artful swipes with a hand scraper or razor blade. They just slice right off. Another way to get a more self-level breed of shellac is to buy dry flakes (shameless self-promotion), and mix 'em up yourself in isopropyl alcohol (%99), available cheap from printing supply houses. Did you rub-out the finish? Shellac rubs-out to quickly and easily, it's almost a case of vagrancy in the shop. Pour some mineral oil, turpentine, kerosene (paraffin, Richard), or mineral spirits in a bowl, dip a clean cotton cloth in it, then dip the soggy cloth into a plate of pumice (available at paint supply or art supply houses), and rub-out the glossiness. If you want a shinier surface, rub-down with rottenstone. Shinier still, buff with a cleansing paste wax. You can also just rub-out with steel wool and paste wax. Let your project dry for about a week, before rubbing-out, so the shellac is nice and hard and cuts easily. Probably the simplest way to avoid the hassles of drips and brush marks is to thin to a 1/2# cut, then wipe it on with a rag. It dries to touch almost instantly, and you can recoat in 15-20 minutes. In this case, there's no need for the fancy isopropyl retarding-action alcohol; plain old denatured alcohol will do the job. Hope that helps. Paddy - purveyor of Paddylac (tm) ++++ End of thread 28058 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28059 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65149 (thread 28059) ---- From: "Ron Harper" Date: 1999-07-15 22:19:00 Subject: Bee's Wax source Whilst looking around in Berea this weekend I ran across a guy who sells bee's wax in bulk. I have 5 lbs put back so I'm ok for a while. Find him at http://www.beenatural.com usual disclaimers apply here Ron ++++ End of thread 28059 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28060 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65150 (thread 28060) ---- From: Minch Date: 1999-07-15 22:19:00 Subject: Bee's Wax source Date: (Date Unavailable) John wrote: >I just bored mine freehand. Start slow and put a couple of squares >nearby for reference. This is an old boat building trick, although on boats nothing is square so you use two sliding bevels. Or even a plumb bob hung a couple of inches off of the center of the intended hole. A second or even third person helps in sighting to be sure the bit is parallel to the bevels or string in both directions. I personnaly have drilled a 1/2" hole 14" through a timber and come out within 1/16" of the intended spot. (Also, of course, I haven't) Ed Minch ++++ End of thread 28060 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28061 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65151 (thread 28061) ---- From: jcrum@a... (John Crum) Date: 1999-07-15 22:19:00 Subject: 19thC Mexican Woodworking ??? Assembled Galootage, I've been asked to demonstrate woodworking at the upcoming (September) Festival (Mexican-themed) at Old Town SHP in San Diego. Problem is, while I can BS my way through American 19thC ww'ing, I don't know the first thing about Mexican ww'ing, let alone in the 19thC and earlier. I was thinking of making a hand adze and carving out a thing that looks like a dough bowl (what the heck do you call 'em?). For more info on the hand adze, see http://www.mwtca.org/gallery/gall1/ I have found a wonderful text on blacksmithing in the southwest upto about 1900. It does illustrate this tool, and other ww'ing tools. So how does this sound... jc ---- Start of Message 65153 (thread 28061) ---- From: "Gene & Lucy Toye" Date: 1999-07-15 23:12:00 Subject: Re: 19thC Mexican Woodworking ??? > Assembled Galootage, > > I've been asked to demonstrate woodworking at the upcoming (September) > Festival (Mexican-themed) at Old Town SHP in San Diego. Problem is, > while I can BS my way through American 19thC ww'ing, I don't know the > first thing about Mexican ww'ing, let alone in the 19thC and earlier. > I can add a little bit here. Just got back from a family vacation to San Antonio TX. Visited serveral of the old spanish missions there. One display case at Mission San Jose y San Miguel de Aguayo showed a few tools from the mission era (San Jose was established in 1720 and flourished in the 1740s to 1750s, secularized by 1824). They had an auger bit, a gimlet, a crude looking chisel, a wooden carpenter's square, and a froe. Not much detail given on them in the display case. Also saw a park ranger (although owned by the diocese of San Antonio and still active churches, several of them have National Park visitor centers and the surrounding grounds are maintained by the Park Sevice) stripping bark off a small diameter tree trunk for a roof repair. He was using a modern Sorby drawknife and a hooked blade carpet knife :) ---- Start of Message 65155 (thread 28061) ---- From: Chris Dunn Date: 1999-07-15 23:50:00 Subject: Re: 19thC Mexican Woodworking ??? John Crum wrote: > > Assembled Galootage, > > I've been asked to demonstrate woodworking at the upcoming (September) > Festival (Mexican-themed) at Old Town SHP in San Diego. Problem is, > while I can BS my way through American 19thC ww'ing, I don't know the > first thing about Mexican ww'ing, let alone in the 19thC and earlier. > > I was thinking of making a hand adze and carving out a thing that looks > like a dough bowl (what the heck do you call 'em?). For more info on the > hand adze, see http://www.mwtca.org/gallery/gall1/ I have found a > wonderful text on blacksmithing in the southwest upto about 1900. It does > illustrate this tool, and other ww'ing tools. So how does this sound... You could always construct a handcarved wooden frame for a black velvet painting of Elvis ..... 8^) ---- Start of Message 65156 (thread 28061) ---- From: Minch Date: 1999-07-15 23:50:00 Subject: Re: 19thC Mexican Woodworking ??? Date: (Date Unavailable) GG I am not into wrenches, but just OT in general. Today, as is frequently the case, I found two strange similar things at the same time. Any one else have this happen - 2 Starret adjustable levels (4" long) within 3 hours, 2 Greenlee gouges at adjacent FM tables, etc. Today I ran across a 24" long "perfect" handle type monkey wrench. The only mark was Manfrd Under L Coes Patent ***** steel MJD has only one wrench over 15" and it is 22". Does this mean that wrenches this big are rare or not popular? It appears that Coe had several patents, 1869 and 1871 at least. This is one huge piece of steel. Anybody?? The other wrench, two booths down, was a 16" Roebling Alligator Wrench. Wasn't he the guy that built the early suspension bridges (Brooklyn et.al.) and patented the wire spinning process?? This one is just a straight wrench with the alligator at one end - one jaw is smooth and one jaw is toothed. Thanks in advance Ed Minch Hoping for big nuts ++++ End of thread 28061 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28062 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65152 (thread 28062) ---- From: Jim Ketcheson Date: 1999-07-15 15:16:00 Subject: FS- Yankee Spiral Screwdriver I found a NEW "Stanley, Yankee No. 131A Made in Can" spiral screwdriver with three slotted bits in a beat up box at a yard sale last week. I do not need it and if any of you galoots would like to have it the price is $25.00 plus postage. It is absolutely mint. Jim Ketcheson jim.ketcheson@s... ++++ End of thread 28062 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28063 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65157 (thread 28063) ---- From: "William H. Fissell" Date: 1999-07-19 19:44:00 Subject: flitz? Hi, a rust merchant recently recommended "Flitz" polish to me. Ain't used it, ain't seen it in stores. Anyone out there in galootville seen or used this stuff? This particular guy claims to have used it on one spot of a hideously rusty Siegley plow, which was now sparkling. Somehow I doubt it... Thanks, Bill ---- Start of Message 65170 (thread 28063) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-07-22 00:34:00 Subject: Re: flitz? At 7:44 PM +0000 7/19/99, William H. Fissell wrote: >a rust merchant recently recommended "Flitz" polish to me. >Anyone out there in galootville seen or used this stuff? Yep, I got some in Jimmy Reina's shop in Berzerkley, CA last spring, and happily used up a tube, to good effect. Word at the time (from Jimmy himself) was that motorsickel shops commonly stock it. It's made in Germany, I think, somewhat pricy (like $7 for a smallish tube), but nothing's too good for our tools, right? Smells like the main chemical ingredient is probably ammonia, like Brasso, and if it has any abrasive it is *very* fine. This is polish, not scratch. I found it especially good on plated parts, like the M-F levercaps, and brass, but it will also clean up iron parts without making them shiny, leaving a grey-toned patina after removing the brown-toned (rust) patina. Copy on the package claims it has a rust inhibitor, but I always finished with my usual paste wax, and applying the wax takes off a lot of grey stuff left from the Flitz, that you didn't even know was there until the final waxing. Worth a try, if you can find it. Tom Holloway thinking Tom Price can now stop drumming his fingers and chanting "Zee leest, she eez doowwn." ---- Start of Message 65172 (thread 28063) ---- From: Dick Durbin Date: 1999-07-22 02:15:00 Subject: Re: flitz? I can't find Flitz any more but I used to use it to polish up bicycle components. It's good stuff but, as I remember, a litle bit spendy. Worth it, though. Dick Durbin "Who is out there to provide us with a Tallahassee, FL personal example of virtue and www.tfn.net/~ddurbin self-sacrifice for a higher good?"-Calvin ---- Start of Message 65175 (thread 28063) ---- From: Datoolfool@a... Date: 1999-07-22 02:21:00 Subject: Re: flitz? I last bought it in army surplus stores 30 years ago. Good for shining brass, doesn't go very far. ---- Start of Message 65177 (thread 28063) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 1999-07-22 14:52:00 Subject: Re: flitz? Tom Holloway wrote: > William H. Fissell wrote: >>a rust merchant recently recommended "Flitz" polish to me. >>Anyone out there in galootville seen or used this stuff? > Yep, I got some in Jimmy Reina's shop in Berzerkley, CA last >spring, and happily used up a tube, to good effect. Word at the time (from >Jimmy himself) was that motorsickel shops commonly stock it. We're fortunate here in Brattleboro to have real, old-timey, small-town, downtown hardware store (Brown and Roberts). They carry the stuff, which is where I got it. > It's made in Germany, I think, Yep, it's from Germany. > ... somewhat pricy (like $7 for a >smallish tube), but nothing's too good for our tools, right? Smells like >the main chemical ingredient is probably ammonia, like Brasso, and if it >has any abrasive it is *very* fine. This is polish, not scratch. My bottle says on the front "No Ammonia or Abrasive". I found >it especially good on plated parts, like the M-F levercaps, and brass, but >it will also clean up iron parts without making them shiny, leaving a >grey-toned patina after removing the brown-toned (rust) patina. Ditto for me. It's what I use and it's always done the job for me. (However, you might want to take that with a sizable grain of salt, since this is hardly my area of expertise. However, I started using it because when I asked Dave at the store which one was best, he pointed me to Flitz. He's never steered me wrong yet. (Yet another advantage of having access to a real hardware store.)) > Worth a try, if you can find it. Seconded. Nichael ---- Start of Message 65182 (thread 28063) ---- From: "Chuck Zitur" Date: 1999-07-21 15:12:00 Subject: RE: flitz? Flitz is a high quality polish that deep cleans as well as providing a high luster to brass, steel and nickel. I have even used it to clean totes and knobs which were soiled but still retained enough finish to keep the Flitz on the surface. The company I work for used to sell it but opted to replace it with another product called Peek. Peek is very similar but less costly. Chuck Zitur Billings, MT ---- Start of Message 65185 (thread 28063) ---- From: Joe & Johanna Kern Date: 1999-07-22 04:27:00 Subject: RE: flitz? Greetings from under the porch: I bought my tube of flitz from a company that does decrative plating. I use it to polish the inside of some "carriage lamps". These are silver plate and was told by a lamp restorer that it was best thing to use for that purpose, as the plating is rather thin and worn in some spots. Joe Kern Absarokee MT From: "Chuck Zitur" To: , , Subject: Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:12:04 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Flitz is a high quality polish that deep cleans as well as providing a high luster to brass, steel and nickel. I have even used it to clean totes and knobs which were soiled but still retained enough finish to keep the Flitz on the surface. The company I work for used to sell it but opted to replace it with another product called Peek. Peek is very similar but less costly. Chuck Zitur Billings, MT ---- Start of Message 65186 (thread 28063) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-07-22 04:27:00 Subject: RE: flitz? > > Flitz is a high quality polish that deep cleans > as well as providing a high luster to brass, steel and nickel. > I have even used it to clean totes and knobs which were soiled but > still retained enough finish to keep the Flitz on the surface. > The company I work for used to sell it but opted to replace > it with another product called Peek. Peek is very similar but > less costly. > Chuck Zitur > Billings, MT I know I'm not the only web-head on the list (hell, I don't even have a web-site) but here are the results of some casual searching for the general good of the porch... http://www.flitz.com/ http://www.mr-shine.com/Welcome.html http://www.caswellplating.com/flitz.htm http://asontv.com/products/903737632.html http://www.princegroup.com/flitz.htm Personally I've foun in advertising that any metal polish that claims to be "non-abrasive" normally translate as "really, really, fine abrasive". I mean, we put mirror finishes on blades using abrasive, right? But, FINE abrasives. If "Flitz" really does clean without any abrasives, I'd love to know how. BugBear. ---- Start of Message 65215 (thread 28063) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-07-22 17:23:00 Subject: RE: flitz? Bugbear wrote: "I mean, we put mirror finishes on blades using abrasive, right? But, FINE abrasives. If "Flitz" really does clean without any abrasives, I'd love to know how." I don't have the answer, but I have this to offer. I was suckered,errr rr, I bought a product called "Mr. Douglas Metal Cleaner" at the recent St Michaels Wooden Boat Show. It works super and seems to leave a coating that resists water, oil and further oxidation for a good while. I've used it on my household brasses and did a super job on a fairly gritty set of baby moon hub caps I may use to spiffy-up my John Deere. Anyway, I watched the salesman's act for a while and asked if it was li ke Simichrome, the favorite metal polish of the Harley crowd. With a horrified tone he said it wasn't - that Simichrome had a grit and Mr Douglas doesn't. Like BugBear, I wondered how it cleaned obvious oxidation, stains and o ld lacquer finish off and polished at the same time. I still don't know the answer, but here is my current conjecture. It contains a chemical to remove thin finishes and oxidation and to hol d together a "paste". If there is grit, I can't feel it. But the instructions call for Mr Douglas to be applied with your finger, then to scrub the area with a paper towel as the scrubbing surface and to switch to a soft cloth to finish it off. So, I suspect the paper towel gliding around in the paste under pressure provides the requisite "grit" and the soft cloth is an even finer grit. The finish, even on dull aluminium can get very mirror-like if you are diligent and hard working. The instructions say to not let it dry on the metal surface. I've let Simichome dry and it leaves a toothpaste like gritty powder. Of course, I've never followed instructions and I let Mr Douglas dry. It does not feel gritty when dried, but it is bear to get off once dried. Ok, so now someone can conjecture on my conjecture and tell me what is really happening. Oh, and I wouldn't recommend Mr Douglas for use on old tools unless you like the British bright polished look. *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * *********************************************** ---- Start of Message 65266 (thread 28063) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-07-23 12:42:00 Subject: RE: flitz? > > Bugbear wrote: > "I mean, we put mirror finishes on blades using abrasive, right? > But, FINE abrasives. If "Flitz" really does clean without any > abrasives, I'd love to know how." > I don't have the answer, but I have this to offer. I was suckered,errr rr, > I bought a product called "Mr. Douglas Metal Cleaner" at the recent St > Michaels Wooden Boat Show. It works super and seems to leave a coating > that resists water, oil and further oxidation for a good while. I've used > it on my household brasses and did a super job on a fairly gritty set of > baby moon hub caps I may use to spiffy-up my John Deere. > Anyway, I watched the salesman's act for a while and asked if it was li ke > Simichrome, the favorite metal polish of the Harley crowd. With a > horrified tone he said it wasn't - that Simichrome had a grit and Mr > Douglas doesn't. > Like BugBear, I wondered how it cleaned obvious oxidation, stains and o ld > lacquer finish off and polished at the same time. I still don't know the > answer, but here is my current conjecture. > It contains a chemical to remove thin finishes and oxidation and to hol d > together a "paste". If there is grit, I can't feel it. This is the core of my suspicion. Grit you can't feel is not so tricky to make. Does an 8000 grit waterstone feel rough to the touch? It feels about as smooth as a counter top to me. But tools ARE abraded by it. Similarly the stuff you put on strops (even the "coarse" versions) are way below the touch threshold. And as for those diamond grits discussed recently.... BugBear. ---- Start of Message 65384 (thread 28063) ---- From: Norm Sager Date: 1999-07-25 20:19:00 Subject: Re: flitz? At 07:44 PM 7/19/99 +0000, you wrote: >Hi, > >a rust merchant recently recommended "Flitz" polish to me. > >Ain't used it, ain't seen it in stores. > > >Anyone out there in galootville seen or used this stuff? This >particular guy claims to have used it on one spot of a hideously rusty >Siegley plow, which was now sparkling. Somehow I doubt it... > > >Thanks, > >Bill Hi Bill, Moons ago I worked in a knife shop which sold the stuff. I doubt it wi ll cure "hideously rusty", but I recommend the stuff highly for cleaning, and polishing. http://www.cyberg8t.com/bigred/resources/flitz.htm Norm tools@z... ++++ End of thread 28063 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28064 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65158 (thread 28064) ---- From: "William H. Fissell" Date: 1999-07-19 19:46:00 Subject: SS and automation Hi, has anyone tried automating the SS process with a reciprocating table? Cleveland is lousy with dead epson dot-matrix printers, and the little rod-and-bearing setup in 'em seems perfect for a sliding table.... just throw away the elctronics... Bill ---- Start of Message 65189 (thread 28064) ---- From: "Scott E. Post" Date: 1999-07-22 11:07:00 Subject: Re: SS and automation > William H. Fissell wrote: > > has anyone tried automating the SS process with a reciprocating table? > > Cleveland is lousy with dead epson dot-matrix printers, and the little > rod-and-bearing setup in 'em seems perfect for a sliding table.... just > throw away the elctronics... > No need for the paper to move in two directions... Marc Adams teaches using a belt sander for sharpening chisels and plane irons (says he learned it from Tage Frid). He lays the sander upside down on a table and uses a worn belt. He goes right from the belt to a felt wheel charged with polishing compound and I'm here to tell you he gets his tools *sharp* in under a minute. It's quite disturbing to watch though. ++++ End of thread 28064 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28065 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65159 (thread 28065) ---- From: "Bill Taggart" Date: 1999-07-20 02:12:00 Subject: Met Three (3) Galoots! Well, just got back from an evening with three Cincinnati area Galoots. After much discussion of just how we were going to work this out, Keith Mealy came to my hotel and picked me and my co-worker up. Drove us to a Chili's, where we awaited the arrival of Ralph Sprang and Ed Bell. Had some beer and burgers, sprinkled with tales of old tool acquisitions and remembrances of Oldtools list postings (specifically a couple from Our Own Mr. Price). Afterwards, we were taken to a HUGE anteek maul called "The Brass Armadillo". After some time scoping the place out, it became pretty evident that there was really not much to be had there... just as we were getting ready to wrap it up and leave, Ed says "I saw a bunch of woodies over that way." So we headed over to see if there was anything good. We dug around and actually discovered that there were several pairs of hollows and rounds in there, we just had to match them up. All were in pretty nice user condition, and the prices were actually realistic. I wasn't really looking for hollows and rounds (haven't started down that slope yet), but since I couldn't possibly leave empty-handed, I scarfed up a pretty massive wooden plane. This baby should clean up real nice-like, once I get all the gummy dark goop off of it. It appears to be a Mathieson. The iron definitely says"Alex Matheison Warranted Cast Steel" and the breaker says "Glasgow". It's hard to see, but the toe appears to be imprinted with "Matheison (something) Warranted". Won't be able to tell until I get it home and get the gunk off. We were trying to decide if it should be considered to be a fore plane or a jointer - It's 22 inches long, 3-1/4" high and about 3-3/8" wide, solid beech. Nice ray fleck pattern, with the nicest curvy closed tote, in beautiful condition. It's comfortable to hold in proper pit-bull bashing style. Also picked up a nice fully-boxed 3/8" side-bead, marked "L. J. Wise Warranted", and bearing G TOLLEY's stamp on both ends. Ed then drove us back to our hotel, and we chatted about the evolution of the Oldtools list from its humble beginnings to the current state of affairs. All in all, a nice evening... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) On the road - in Ft. Mitchell, KY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 65188 (thread 28065) ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 1999-07-22 10:10:00 Subject: Re: Met Three (3) Galoots! Wanderin' Bill Taggart wrote: > I scarfed up a pretty massive wooden >plane. This baby should clean up real nice-like, once I get all >the gummy dark goop off of it. It appears to be a Mathieson. The >iron definitely says"Alex Matheison Warranted Cast Steel" and the >breaker says "Glasgow". It's hard to see, but the toe appears to >be imprinted with "Matheison (something) Warranted". Won't be >able to tell until I get it home and get the gunk off. We were >trying to decide if it should be considered to be a fore plane or >a jointer - It's 22 inches long, 3-1/4" high and about 3-3/8" >wide, solid beech I believe that this would be called a try plane in the woodie world. Don McConnell may want to comment, unless he has given up all hope that the list would ever return. Yep. List is back. Hot dang! I was beginning to think it was me or something. SWMBO had given up trying to console me. Guess I can quit wearing my Galoot hat to bed and turn my underwear right side out again. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Will Work For Tools New Galoot? You can find the Not Officially Authorized Orientation at the Galoot's Progress: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ---- Start of Message 65192 (thread 28065) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1999-07-22 11:20:00 Subject: Re: Met Three (3) Galoots! Wanderin' Bill Taggart had written: >> ... I scarfed up a pretty massive wooden plane. This baby should >>clean up real nice-like, once I get all the gummy dark goop off >>of it. It appears to be a Mathieson. ...We were trying to decide >>if it should be considered to be a fore plane or a jointer - It's >>22 inches long, 3-1/4" high and about 3-3/8" wide, solid beech Tom Price replied: >I believe that this would be called a try plane in the woodie world. >Don McConnell may want to comment, unless he has given up all hope >that the list would ever return. Mathieson's 1899 catalog has a listing of "Trying or Jointer Planes" and lists planes from 22 to 30 inches long in this category. The illustration is labeled a "Trying Plane." Typically, British terminology refers to planes in the 20 to 24 inch range as Trying Planes and 26 to 30 inch length planes are referred to as Jointers. So, I think it appropriate to refer to this plane as a Trying plane. A convention I personally prefer as the nomenclature does indicate the primary use for a plane this size - at least while surfacing and thicknessing material completely by hand. On the other hand, American trade catalogues of that same general era refer to planes of this size as Fore Planes. I've puzzled about this difference in terminology and wonder if it is, in some way, related to the earlier and more widespread introduction of machinery into the bench woodworking trades in the U.S.? Incidentally, for those who've given up hope of finding a copy of Ken Robert's reprint of the 1899 Mathieson catalogue, I noticed that Inchmartine Tool Bazaar - http://www.toolbazaar.co.uk/ is offering their own reprint of this catalogue for sale. Thanks for the pointer Richard. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 65193 (thread 28065) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-07-22 11:17:00 Subject: Re: Met Three (3) Galoots! Yup, it's a try plane. Got one of the same ilk too, see the site below for a photo. It's the one on the far right of the bench full of planes. Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@n... http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, 22 July 1999 20:10 Subject: Re: Met Three (3) Galoots! > Wanderin' Bill Taggart wrote: > > > I scarfed up a pretty massive wooden > >plane. This baby should clean up real nice-like, once I get all >snip > I believe that this would be called a try plane in the woodie world. Don >snip ---- Start of Message 65262 (thread 28065) ---- From: "Bill Taggart" Date: 1999-07-23 02:07:00 Subject: Re: Met Three (3) Galoots! List Prose Master Laureate Tom Price wrote: >Yep. List is back. Hot dang! I was beginning to think it was me or >something. SWMBO had given up trying to console me. Guess I can quit >wearing my Galoot hat to bed and turn my underwear right side out again. I don't wanna know... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) On the road in Livonia, MI ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ++++ End of thread 28065 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28066 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65160 (thread 28066) ---- From: beckerm@a... (Mark Becker) Date: 1999-07-20 17:51:00 Subject: Harris Tools Planes I just received a William Alden Catalog and on page 80 I see a collection of planes and tools made by Harris Tools. Can anyone supply any info about the Skew-Jack Plane beyond the catalog's note that it "combines the features of a Jack, Flat Fielding, and an Edging Plane"? They also have what looks like a lovely set of Chisels - cocobolo handles "and the best qualities of English and Japanese chisels". Are they bimetal? or just very hard? or what? Last, and costwise not the least there's a jointer for $1,379.99, but the picture shows little other than brass sides and a large square knob. Many thanks, Beck who hopes the listserver is up soon. I need my fix. ---- Start of Message 65183 (thread 28066) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-22 10:59:00 Subject: Re: Harris Tools Planes On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:51:23 GMT, you wrote: >They also have what looks like a lovely set of Chisels - cocobolo >handles "and the best qualities of English and Japanese chisels". Are >they bimetal? or just very hard? or what? Almost all japanese chisels are wrought iron and "white or blue Steel" Usually rc 64 to 66. They stay sharp forever. But you would need waterstones to sharpen them to full potential. For japanese chisels go to www.japanwoodworker.com I just ordered a 1/2" 3/4" and 1" cost me about 110.00 for the "lower" quality (G ) Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ---- Start of Message 65187 (thread 28066) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-07-22 04:27:00 Subject: Re: Harris Tools Planes > > I just received a William Alden Catalog and on page 80 I see a > collection of planes and tools made by Harris Tools. > > Can anyone supply any info about the Skew-Jack Plane beyond the > catalog's note that it "combines the features of a Jack, Flat > Fielding, and an Edging Plane"? > That sounds a lot like a badger plane. A big plane with a blade that goes all the way to one edge. Hang on: (FX: Alta Vista being fired up) http://www.oldtools.com/FW_7850.jpg (but they don't show the interesting side) If you have any of the "standard" works (Salaman, Dunbar, Whelan) look under "badger" BugBear. ---- Start of Message 65201 (thread 28066) ---- From: Jim Lunden Date: 1999-07-22 13:59:00 Subject: RE: Harris Tools Planes Beck I've been using the Harris chisels for about 1 1/2 years. They have very thin blades which I believe are solid steel. They hold their edge well but I doubt they are in the same league as the finest Japanese tools. The handles are beautiful. I have been reluctant to really smash them because of their delicate look. Have used them with a wooden hammer for making dovetails with no ill effect. Jim Lunden Avon, CT ++++ End of thread 28066 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28067 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65161 (thread 28067) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-07-20 14:03:00 Subject: Ping Mum????? Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@n... http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den ++++ End of thread 28067 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28068 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65162 (thread 28068) ---- From: TURFF49@a... Date: 1999-07-20 14:46:00 Subject: no mail I haven"t received any email since saturday, whats wrong. I even sent a test message and didn't receive that. Do I nee to resubscribe? Help!!!!! Thanks in Advance, Brian ++++ End of thread 28068 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28069 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65163 (thread 28069) ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 1999-07-20 09:27:00 Subject: WTB or swap I am looking for a fence to the Stanley 48 T&G plane; or, conversely, I would sell or swap the No. 48 body that I have to someone who has a fence. Trevor ++++ End of thread 28069 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28070 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65164 (thread 28070) ---- From: Stan Faullin Date: 1999-07-20 16:28:00 Subject: SWTCA Meet in Arlington, Texas this weekend! Hello All, The SWTCA meet is in Arlington, Texas on this Saturday. (Arlington is between Dallas and Ft. Worth) You can get details from http://www.swtca.org/ . I'll be there, and hope to see a few other galoots. Cheers, Stan ps: I typically don't bring any #45 parts with me - email me ahead of time if you need something. It's a good opportunity to save shipping. Stan Faullin check out my oldtool web page at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/faullin ++++ End of thread 28070 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28071 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65165 (thread 28071) ---- From: "DuPrie, James" Date: 1999-07-21 16:27:00 Subject: test, don't read test 1 7/21, noon:30 ++++ End of thread 28071 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28072 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65166 (thread 28072) ---- From: jat347@n... (James Talbert) Date: 1999-07-21 20:07:00 Subject: (no subject) IS THE SYSTEM DOWN OR WAS I REMOVED FROM LIST JAT Replies Author Date 52961 (no subject) John S. North Sat 8/14/1999 52999 (no subject) Michael Smith Sun 8/15/1999 56033 (no subject) William H Fariss Mon 10/18/1999 56040 Re: Steve Knight Mon 10/18/1999 56929 (no subject) dianam@r... Tue 11/2/1999 56930 (no subject) dianam@r... Tue 11/2/1999 56932 (no subject) dianam@r... Tue 11/2/1999 56940 (no subject) dianam@r... Tue 11/2/1999 56941 (no subject) dianam@r... Tue 11/2/1999 ++++ End of thread 28072 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28073 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65167 (thread 28073) ---- From: Bhermanek@a... Date: 1999-07-21 21:57:00 Subject: Whewre are you? Haven't recieved any OLDTOOLS letters in the past couple of days. Are we still out there? Bill Hermanek ++++ End of thread 28073 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28074 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65168 (thread 28074) ---- From: "Thomas Graham" Date: 1999-07-21 22:12:00 Subject: Problems With the List Fellow Porch members. Is there something wrong with the list? I haven't gotten a digest since last Thursday. Public and private replies requested. Tom Graham ++++ End of thread 28074 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28075 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65169 (thread 28075) ---- From: jneustein@e... Date: 1999-07-21 22:36:00 Subject: Is the list down? I haven't gotten oldtools email in several days, and I do not see any additional postings here. Que pasa? Joe Neustein ++++ End of thread 28075 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28076 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65171 (thread 28076) ---- From: "David Carradine" Date: 1999-07-22 03:48:00 Subject: WTB, misc. Millers Falls and Stanley Galoots, 1) I really need a saw that will fit a Millers Falls mitre box. 2) I also need a depth stop and fence for a Millers Falls 85, which is just like a Stanley 78. I assume I can buy these new from Stanley, but I thought I better check the list first. I would certainly consider any old replacements, Stanley or otherwise before resorting to the new stuff. Actually I was told that the Stanley items would not work due to the threads, any truth to that? 3) Anybody got a spare depth adjusting knob screw for a Millers Falls 56B, low angle block plane? It is just a threaded rod with a big knob to turn. Mine works but it has been welded together. 4) A lowly nut/screw for a backsaw that has a handle that is 7/8" thick. It's not that old, but again I would rather have an old nut than a new nut. 5) I have some parts to both a Stanley 203 and a 220, if anybody wants to sell or swap some parts so that one of us could have a whole plane or two, let me know and we can check on the specifics. 6) I am also always in the market for a Millers Falls 22, 24 or 15 at a good price, but who isn't. If anyone knows of any suppliers of these items I would appreciate that also. Thanks. Dave "Grasshopper" Carradine Pulaski, VA > > > > -- > > ---- Start of Message 65225 (thread 28076) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1999-07-22 18:06:00 Subject: Re: WTB, misc. Millers Falls and Stanley On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:48:36 -0700 "David Carradine" writes: [snip] > I also need a depth stop and fence for a Millers Falls 85, which is >just like a Stanley 78. I assume I can buy these new from Stanley, but I >thought I better check the list first. I would certainly consider any >old replacements, Stanley or otherwise before resorting to the new stuff. >Actually I was told that the Stanley items would not work due to the >threads, any truth to that? > [snip] Plenty of truth. The threads aren't even close. Get in line behind me for the #85 parts. Regards, Steve, who had to put a certain galoot on Methadone to get him through the latest Oldtools blackout. ++++ End of thread 28076 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28077 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65173 (thread 28077) ---- From: georgew@m... Date: 1999-07-20 20:48:00 Subject: Is oldtools down? Hey, What gives? Is Oldtools down? Haven't seen any posts in several days. George ++++ End of thread 28077 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28078 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65174 (thread 28078) ---- From: Tim T Clarke Date: 1999-07-22 02:12:00 Subject: list down? Just checking to see if the list is down . Thanks ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ++++ End of thread 28078 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28079 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65176 (thread 28079) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-07-22 02:48:00 Subject: Hollow and Round Questions? Greetings Galoots, Over the past few months, I have been attempting to put together a user set of Hollow and Round planes. For reasons I won't go into, I have concentrated my search of H&R's to those manufactured by the Ohio Tool Co. After putting together a hodge podge of different sizes of these planes from different owners and obviously different manufacturing years, I have noticed some things that bring questions to mind. First of all, of the dozen or so H&R's that I have assembled so far, there seems to be some inconstancies in the numbering of these planes. Remember, they are all Ohio Tool Co. planes and I would assume (which is dangerous I know) that the numbering system should be constant. Well, one of the first matched sets of Hollow and Rounds that I purchased were marked #72 in model number and clearly marked #4 as size. I then purchased another very crisp matched set from an esteemed member of this list which were very clearly marked #3 in size. I also purchased a set of Ohio Tool Co planes from an online auction service that will be un-named that included a #3 Round. Today, when the duplicate #3 arrived in the mail, I went to the shop and started comparing the two #3 Rounds together to see which one looked to be the best. That is when I first noticed something strange. The matched set of two #3's that I purchased were larger than the single #3 that had just arrived in the mail. They were both clearly marked #3 but were not the same size. I remembered that in the photocopy of an Ohio Tool Co. catalog that I have, there is a convent table which describes the size number and the width of iron and size circle worked. I measured the irons of the matched set and they 5/8" wide making them #4's instead of the marked #3's (1/2" wide). Also having a matched set of #4's I quickly compared them and for sure incorrectly marked #3 set was exactly the same size as the correctly marked #4's. As if that were enough, I also recently purchased over the same online auction service what was described to me as a #9 round. Upon receiving it, I quickly realized the the person who had listed it read the number up-side down and it was actually marked #6. This was somewhat discouraging since I already had in my assortment a #6 but not the #9 I thought I was buying. Again, I compared the two duplicate planes to see which one was best and immediately discovered it was not the same size as the #6 I already had. Upon measuring the iron and looking it up on my chart, I discovered that marked #6 was actually a #7 Round. Now, I don't have all that many H&R's in my little collection and already I have found three that were clearly mis-marked as to the size. Has anybody else run into this? Is this common with the H&R's or only with Ohio Tool Co? Did at some time Ohio Tool Co. change there numbering system? Now, if that is not enough, I have one more question. I also recently acquired two planes (both rounds of different sizes) that had the same owner marks. On one end of the two planes, there is a small hole bored into the end. At first, I thought that some ding-dong had screwed eye hooks into the end to hang them up or something. I never thought anything else about it until I acquired a matched set from the other side of the country that had similar holes in them as well. This got me to wondering if it was not some kind of common practice to attach something to these planes that would create these holes. I also noticed that on all four planes (bought from different sources in different areas) that the holes were bored almost exactly in the same position on the plane - almost precision like. Upon seeing the other set, my theory of eye hooks was more or less thrown out and now I am wondering again. Any ideas? The holes actually look more like old screw holes than a drilled hole. Thanks, Keith Rucker Tifton, GA ---- Start of Message 65199 (thread 28079) ---- From: Darrell LaRue Date: 1999-07-22 13:39:00 Subject: Re: Hollow and Round Questions? Galoots, Keith asked for some data points & opinions: [snip tale of confusion of H&R sizes] Some pairs I've seen have the same patina, owners, & makers marks, and would have been a *matched* pair when new, but one or the other of the pair had been modified long ago to a different profile. I also would not be surprised that the numbering schemes used by wooden plane makers changed over time. > Now, if that is not enough, I have one more question. I also > recently acquired two planes (both rounds of different sizes) > that had the same owner marks. On one end of the two planes, > there is a small hole bored into the end. Hmmm is this an American practice? All my H&R's are English & Scottish imports (8 pairs by various & sundry makers plus a spare pair of #14's). None of them have holes in the heel or toe. I would easily accept the presence of screw holes in the sides of planes, from application of temporary fences, but I have no idea what a screw in the end of a plane would be for, except possibly your eye-screw hanger option. Maybe one of the Wooden Heads could shed some light on this. Darrell ---- Start of Message 65217 (thread 28079) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-07-22 17:24:00 Subject: RE: Hollow and Round Questions? As to the purpose of the hole in the end of my H&R's I really do not have any idea as to there purpose. The button theory below is a possible explanation. After I sent that message last night, I went out and took another, even closer look at the planes. All of the holes definitely have thread in them, indicating that a screw or even somekind of bolt was put into them. The biggest thing that really makes me wonder about them is precision in which they were located. Three of the planes I have are Rounds, all different sizes. On all three, the holes are drilled exactly 1 1/2" above the lowest point of the round. The fourth plane, a hollow, at first threw me off because the hole was definitely a little higher than that of the rounds. However, upon putting the rule to it, it also was exactly 1 1/2" above the highest point of the hollow. On all four, the holes are not at all centered but instead slightly to the left of center. Two of the planes have a slight mark around them 1/2" in diameter. This could have been from the "button" theory below. However, unless the buttons were installed from the factory, I have to wonder about the fact that they were all put exactly 1 1/2" from the lowest or highest point and I would also wonder why they were not put in the center of the plane instead of off to one side. Could these threaded holes have been left over from the manufacturing of the plane? Again, the thing that really makes me wonder is the exact precision in location! Has anybody else seen this on any of their H&R's - particularly those made by Ohio Tool Co? -----Original Message----- From: Brent D. Beach [mailto:ub359@v...] Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 1:08 PM To: ksrucker@s... Subject: Re: Hollow and Round Questions? On Wed, 21 Jul, "Keith S. Rucker" wrote: >Now, if that is not enough, I have one more question. I also >recently acquired two planes (both rounds of different sizes) >that had the same owner marks. On one end of the two planes, >there is a small hole bored into the end. At first, I thought >that some ding-dong had screwed eye hooks into the end to hang >them up or something. I never thought anything else about it >until I acquired a matched set from the other side of the >country that had similar holes in them as well. This got me to >wondering if it was not some kind of common practice to attach >something to these planes that would create these holes. I >also noticed that on all four planes (bought from different >sources in different areas) that the holes were bored almost >exactly in the same position on the plane - almost precision >like. Upon seeing the other set, my theory of eye hooks was >more or less thrown out and now I am wondering again. Any >ideas? The holes actually look more like old screw holes than >a drilled hole. Could it be a hole for a hardwood button which you were supposed to hit to loosen the blade? I have a plane with a hole in the appropriate place, obviously drilled. It is centered side to side, about 1-1/2" from the top. Brent Brent Beach, Victoria, BC, CA ---- Start of Message 65220 (thread 28079) ---- From: "Flowers, Curt" Date: 1999-07-22 17:36:00 Subject: RE: Hollow and Round Questions? Keith asked a number of questions about Hollows and Rounds, some of which expressed confusion about H&R numbering schemes: Curt pitched in a bit: Dunbar tells us H&Rs were produced with these sizing/numbering schemes: --> #1=1/8", #2=1/4", #3=3/8", 4=1/2, 5=5/8, 6=3/4, 7=7/8, 8=1, 9=1 1/8. Number = number of eigths. --> 1=1/4, 2=3/8, 3=1/2, 4=5/8, 5=3/4, 6=7/8, 7=1, 8=1 1/8, 9=1 1/4. Size increases by eigths but the first pair is 1/4" --> 2=1/4, 4=1/2, 6=3/4, 8=1, 10=1 1/4, 12=1 1/2, 14 = 1 3/4, 16 = 2, 18=1 1/4 The number equals the eighths but sets are in 1/4" increments --> 1=1/8, 2=1/4, 3=3/8, 4=1/2, 5=5/8, 6=3/4, 7=7/8, 8=1, 9=1 1/8, etc up to 20=2 1/2 but then 21=2 3/4, 22=3, 23=3 1/4 and 24=3 1/2. Basically a set increasing by eigths and numberered by eighths until we get to the big sizes, where it changes to keep us on our toes. Dunbar also says these were the "common" numbering schemes but there were others. I don't have a big selection, but I due have some Ohio Plane company planes of the same size but numbered differently. I've always figured there was no standard and bring a ruler. Curt Flowers, Monticello, IL ---- Start of Message 65221 (thread 28079) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-07-22 17:39:00 Subject: RE: Hollow and Round Questions? Curt and others, As to the size of Ohio Tool Co. H&R's, here is the info from the copy of catalog I have. Fellow galoot, Mark van Roojen, has gone to the trouble of scanning the woodie pages in and putting them on a website. Take a look at: http://www.geocities.com/~mvr1/oldtoolinfo.html In the meantime, here is the info contained on sizes: SIZE - IRON WIDTH - SIZE CIRCLE 1 1/4" 1/2" 2 3/8" 3/4" 3 1/2" 1" 4 5/8" 1 1/4" 5 3/4" 1 1/2" 6 7/8" 1 3/4" 7 1" 2" 8 1 1/8" 2 1/4" 9 1 1/4" 2 1/2" 10 1 3/8" 2 3/4" 11 1 1/2" 3" 12 1 5/8" 3 1/4" 13 1 3/4" 3 1/2" 14 1 7/8" 3 3/4" 15 2" 4" I guess that the real question is if Ohio Tool Co ever changed from this published standard and had different numbering schemes over the years or whether they had poor quality control and commonly mis-numbered their planes? Keith Rucker -----Original Message----- From: Flowers, Curt [mailto:cjflower@u...] Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 1:37 PM To: 'Keith S. Rucker'; OLDTOOLS Subject: RE: Hollow and Round Questions? Keith asked a number of questions about Hollows and Rounds, some of which expressed confusion about H&R numbering schemes: Curt pitched in a bit: Dunbar tells us H&Rs were produced with these sizing/numbering schemes: --> #1=1/8", #2=1/4", #3=3/8", 4=1/2, 5=5/8, 6=3/4, 7=7/8, 8=1, 9=1 1/8. Number = number of eigths. --> 1=1/4, 2=3/8, 3=1/2, 4=5/8, 5=3/4, 6=7/8, 7=1, 8=1 1/8, 9=1 1/4. Size increases by eigths but the first pair is 1/4" --> 2=1/4, 4=1/2, 6=3/4, 8=1, 10=1 1/4, 12=1 1/2, 14 = 1 3/4, 16 = 2, 18=1 1/4 The number equals the eighths but sets are in 1/4" increments --> 1=1/8, 2=1/4, 3=3/8, 4=1/2, 5=5/8, 6=3/4, 7=7/8, 8=1, 9=1 1/8, etc up to 20=2 1/2 but then 21=2 3/4, 22=3, 23=3 1/4 and 24=3 1/2. Basically a set increasing by eigths and numberered by eighths until we get to the big sizes, where it changes to keep us on our toes. Dunbar also says these were the "common" numbering schemes but there were others. I don't have a big selection, but I due have some Ohio Plane company planes of the same size but numbered differently. I've always figured there was no standard and bring a ruler. Curt Flowers, Monticello, IL ++++ End of thread 28079 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28080 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65178 (thread 28080) ---- From: Stan Faullin Date: 1999-07-22 03:08:00 Subject: FINAL NOTICE: SWTCA MEET THIS WEEKEND !!!! Hello All, Since the list has been down, I thought I'd send this out one last time.... The SWTCA meet is in Arlington, Texas on this Saturday. (Arlington is between Dallas and Ft. Worth) You can get details from http://www.swtca.org/ . I'll be there, and hope to see a few other galoots. Cheers, Stan ps: I typically don't bring any #45 parts with me - email me ahead of time if you need something. It's a good opportunity to save shipping. pps: Also, please note my new, simple webpage address. The old address will work for a while, but please bookmark it now. Stan Faullin faullin@c... Visit my Old Tool Webpage at http://www.tooltrip.com ++++ End of thread 28080 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28081 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65179 (thread 28081) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 1999-07-22 15:01:00 Subject: What's this symbol? Does anybody recognize this symbol? O >>>>---> + [Left to right: A circle with a dot in the middle, an arrow and what we used to call an "iron" or a "maltese" cross.] The irons I got with one of my plow planes is the usual mixed bag. However most of the irons were made be "W. R. Butcher, Sheffield". However, even these are unusual in that the maker's mark on each of the irons by Butcher is different. Most marks are variations on the name, however two have other symbols. On one, below the name, is "V R" --which, presumably is for "Victoria Regina". On the other iron, above the name, is the symbol above. Is this simply a trademark or some such? If not, does anyone know what it might be? Thanks Nichael ++++ End of thread 28081 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28082 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65180 (thread 28082) ---- From: Eric Coyle Date: 1999-07-21 05:58:00 Subject: Ronny Barlow's book arrives in the GWN..... Cowtown Eric paid his customs duty to the protectors of the 49th parallel and the 5$ fee to have the right to pay the duty in order to provide transit of Ronald S. Barlows 1999 version of his 1991 classic cyclopedia (entitled "Antique Tool Collectors guide to value") across the longest undefended border in the world... Anyway, since word of this update circulated, I have been looking for it up here, but to no avail, so I took it upon myself to order six copies. Most are already spoken for. So' I open the front cover, and there's a general page for page match. Heck, even the forward is the same. and Dammit, Ron's stack of 3x5 index cards is still the same size. What's gonin on here. Well with a few x-chks, I notice a few additions and deletions, but by and large the prices are upgraded, but that's all that I see on this cursory glance. Hate to disappoint ya, but books ain't gone up a cent in value over the last 8 years. Freddy H's tomes on the steel square are still listed at 15$ for the two volume 1928 edition. A quick check of Bedrocks, shows that while the old ish listed em starting around 60+ish, they are now around the 90ish and up range. Personally, I ain't seen a bedrock change hands in knowledgable circles much below the 100 mark even on the ebay, so I'm thinking that where the prices are actually updated, they are still a little on the low side. Ceptin the woodies. A 15$ plane now shows a 40$ value. As I said before---whats happening here. And I see what's happened..... Some creative person has copied the text, modified the prices, and reissued the same book. Missed a few updates, so it's gotta be a sloppy job, and did actually change a few things-. But to my neophytic eye, this book smacks of a corporate upgrade as opposed to an upgrade sponsored by someone who gives a damn about oldtools. But knowing that, this is seemingly the current guide to value what with it's 1999 date, so truckin it into yer tool-pushers tract and saying "see here- this lists the value of a stanley #xx at yy$ might seem a tad more convincing. Stan F and the 4X afficiandos might note that a 46 listing in the new book deletes the sentence "dealer offierings fall in the 50-150$ range" leaving the rather uncouth (but probably true) statement that an original 1874 model...sold at auction in 1982 at $520. My immediate knee jerk consensus is that this update is a very hack publication job, no informational updates of substance, same illustrations, erratic pricing information, if not damned erroneous, so why would a person buy it..... Now we talk amongst ourselves about "applied deviance". -I always wondered why they didn't offer that course in the sociology faculty. Given that the two issues of the tomes have a page/page correspondance, it's a simple matter to see that , for example,survey instruments, haven't changed much. So you truck into the tool pusher and start to negotiate on the "gurley" transit. He says " a gadzillion bucks" you pull out yer 1999 guide and say, " well last year it mighta been worth that- but here is the latest price guide-them internet auctions caused a temporary surge in value, but it's clearly dropping now, and here's the proof..so looks like you missed the boat...." So just like Walters pushed the envelope of Satanly-values to the limit, this guide could similarly serve to push the general tool prices down. Not good news for the investor to be sure, but good news for the user. And not that it ain't lacking creibility- checked them ebay prices lately. Would you agree that there is a modest easement in prices reealized??? ain't keeping stats, but that's my general impressioon. God knows how many times I've had that Walters value thrown back at me for less than complete, etc. , but now here's more comprehensive and more current info.......at least on very superficial face value. Of course the dealers who subscribe and participate on the list (as per rules....) will read this and either already know this stuff or quickly set themselves down in a corner of the porch and check it out. And they or you may not reach the same conclusions as I did ( and I reserve the right to change my opinions), but I betcha the true blue amongst them never quite believed that some of the prices realized were sustainable, and now there is a "random element" in the wood-pile that might, just might, temper the oldtool marketplace. The gosh-darn book is just such a random element, (From my limited understanding of game theory, I seem to recall that random moves are the only plays which could POSSIBLY win against the superior foe) and thus has the capability to develop a disturbance in the "force" Cowtown Eric's ramblings...... BTW, if any of the phsikists on the list wanna check this out,,,,, http://www.feynman.com/online/ Love it.... ---- Start of Message 65203 (thread 28082) ---- From: Chris Winter Date: 1999-07-22 15:24:00 Subject: RE: Ronny Barlow's book arrives in the GWN..... >checked them ebay prices lately. Would >you agree that there is a modest easement in prices reealized??? ain't >keeping stats, but that's my general impressioon. I'll buy that - bought a #5 on the bay - basic type 12 variety that needs cleanup and has a chip off one side of the top of the tote. Otherwise - in very usable shape with 80% jap..little use....wanted it for parts (or so I thought) - got it for $12 + $5 ship. Seems if it is common and taint a pretty picture - you can do well. Though I like hunting in the wild *much* more - like the ca. 1797 - 1815 open handled British dovetail saw I picked up last weekend at an antique store for $20. I also picked up a decent brass-backed one. Off topic, but it still amazes me how tools come in flurries. I sold several nice dovetail saws a few months ago to galoots as they seemed to be in demand and here they are again (ducking...hey - that woulda left a mark!). I know they aren't too uncommon but geez - I've been looking for a nice set of vintage bench chisels for several years now and haven't come across them except for *largish prices* at shows/dealers. Yet, nearly a dozen dovetail saws have passed through...all in the wild (except for IT that is... ). Enjoy the day, Chris W. ...waiting for the Chelor and infill flurries! ---- Start of Message 65263 (thread 28082) ---- From: Lodley@a... Date: 1999-07-23 03:34:00 Subject: Re: Ronny Barlow's book arrives in the GWN..... In a message dated 7/21/99 10:06:18 PM Central Daylight Time, ecoyle@c... writes: << Cowtown Eric paid his customs duty to the protectors of the 49th parallel and the 5$ fee to have the right to pay the duty in order to provide transit of Ronald S. Barlows 1999 version of his 1991 classic cyclopedia (entitled "Antique Tool Collectors guide to value") >>followed by a long discussion of this book, price guides, and price trends. Actually, 1991 was like the third edition, the original dating back I think to about 1984, which had an eyecatching Venus-type image on the back (SWMBO asked "Why's that on there?"). The second and third just added some new prices at the end, and these are copied exactly in the "Updated Values 1999" version.What all old-toolers know as "The Barlow Book" certainly has been a mainstay -- lots of pictures and info, and at least the price ranges, while dated, seemingly were based on actual sales. The new version looks really new with the blue cover with Strelinger tool box, but one quickly notes the updating is pretty cosmetic, with some new numbers inserted in the otherwise copied old entries. Where the old referred to a sale at auction, the new repeats the exact description omitting the auction citation. Thus, a Miller's Patent No. 43 was in an auction range of $175 - $200 (if all cutters present) but now we see it is worth $300+ (if all cutters present). Lots of plus signs are used. On the other hand, the old and new entries for the No. 43 are identical, noting "several have sold at auction for $1000 and up" a statement which of course is forever true. A lot of entries just jump to the high of the old range. Thus a certain foot-powered tool was observed by Barlow to have sold at auctions for $500 - $700. Now, without reference to observed sales, the value is $700+ Please note the new book bears only a 1991 copyright by Barlow, and is published by a new firm. It is a retread for sure, but still useful for most of the reasons it was so from the first. BTW, who is/was Robert Barlow? I have never seen the name come up elsewhere nor talked to anyone in old tool circles who knew him, but then I don't go back to the mid-80's in those circles. Lloyd Henley ---- Start of Message 65274 (thread 28082) ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 1999-07-23 15:04:00 Subject: Re: Ronny Barlow's book arrives in the GWN..... At 11:34 PM 7/22/99 EDT, Lloyd Henley wrote: >BTW, who is/was Robert Barlow? I have never seen the name come >up elsewhere nor talked to anyone in old tool circles who knew him, >but then I don't go back to the mid-80's in those circles. > Lloyd Henley I don't know anything about him, but did run across another of his publications: "The Vanishing American Outhouse", $15.95, from Windmill Publishing, El Cajon, CA, at an antique mall. ---- Start of Message 65315 (thread 28082) ---- From: Chris Dunn Date: 1999-07-23 17:10:00 Subject: Re: Ronny Barlow's book arrives in the GWN..... Lodley@a... wrote: > > BTW, who is/was Robert Barlow? I have never seen the name come up > elsewhere nor talked to anyone in old tool circles who knew him, but > then I don't go back to the mid-80's in those circles. Lloyd, He lives in El Cajon, CA. Although I have not met him, I did speak with him via telephone earlier this year. I called the publisher of the 2nd edition, Windmill Publishing, to inquire about ordering a bunch of the new 3rd edition for the January PAST/MWTCA Winter Meeting in San Diego. As it turned out, Ron Barlow is/was Windmill publishing. He indicated that he no longer publishes the book and referred me to L-W, the current publisher (800-777-6450, BTW). So, yes, he is alive and well and living in El Cajon. A number of the locals (SoCal) told me that they knew him and that he used to frequent local tool events. However, I've not seen/met him at any (at least that I know of!) in the 3 or 4 years I've been old toolin'. Chris ---- Start of Message 65325 (thread 28082) ---- From: Chris Dunn Date: 1999-07-23 18:50:00 Subject: Re: Ronny Barlow's book arrives in the GWN..... Jim Nelson wrote: > > At 11:34 PM 7/22/99 EDT, Lloyd Henley wrote: > > >BTW, who is/was Robert Barlow? I have never seen the name come > >up elsewhere nor talked to anyone in old tool circles who knew him, > >but then I don't go back to the mid-80's in those circles. > > Lloyd Henley > > I don't know anything about him, but did run across another of > his publications: "The Vanishing American Outhouse", $15.95, from > Windmill Publishing, El Cajon, CA, at an antique mall. In my reply to this thread, I indicated that, despite frequenting events near where Ron lives, in 3 or 4 years of old toolin' I'd not seen nor met him - I didn't even condider looking for him there .... and I'm not going to. Chris 8^) ++++ End of thread 28082 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28083 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65181 (thread 28083) ---- From: Stan Faullin Date: 1999-07-22 03:09:00 Subject: FINAL NOTICE: SWTCA MEET THIS WEEKEND !!!! Hello All, Since the list has been down, I thought I'd send this out one last time.... The SWTCA meet is in Arlington, Texas on this Saturday. (Arlington is between Dallas and Ft. Worth) You can get details from http://www.swtca.org/ . I'll be there, and hope to see a few other galoots. Cheers, Stan ps: I typically don't bring any #45 parts with me - email me ahead of time if you need something. It's a good opportunity to save shipping. pps: Also, please note my new, simple webpage address. The old address will work for a while, but please bookmark it now. ++++ End of thread 28083 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28084 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65184 (thread 28084) ---- From: Walt Lane Date: 1999-07-22 04:06:00 Subject: FS: Woodies (2nd Edition) GG's Went back for a second look at the planes found last week. Thought I was told that new stock would be added on Saturday. Unfortunately, not much new on the table. I did find the following (and offer them to you once again) with standard OT terms if I recognize you: J21 - #6 Hollow - BEWLEY, Warranted - (1822-32) Owned at one time by Ruffle (stamped in side 4 times). Wedge near perfect, Iron (by Iohn Green, with touchmark) Good+, Body Good++. Price is $30.00 J22 - #8 Hollow - BEWLEY (1822-32) Also owned by Ruffle. Wedge Good+, Iron (unmarked) Good+, Body Good+ (with very slight age split at mouth). Price is $30.00 J23 - #10 Round - BEWLEY (1822-32) Also owned by Ruffle. Wedge Good (very slight dings), Iron (by W. Butcher) is Good (some pitting on back), Body Good++ Price is $30.00 J24 - #8 (unmarked) Round - BARRY & WAY (1842-47) Owned by R. Haxby. Wedge Good+, Iron (by W. Field) Good+, Body Good+. Price is $30.00 J25 - 1/2 Dado - DAVID BENSEN (c. 1830) Owned by C.S. Watters. Wedges (2) Good+, Irons (2) Good+, Body Good (small chip off toe and heel on left side, will not affect useability). Price is $35.00 I can help with a minor discount on these. Buy two, take off $5; buy three, take off $10, but four, take off $15, buy all five, take off $25 (from total price, that is). I'll keep looking for good woodies. I know how difficult they are to come by. Thanks. Walt Lane PS: Sending this again a/c the List having a hiccough. Thanks, Patrice, for getting things smoothed out. ++++ End of thread 28084 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28085 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65190 (thread 28085) ---- From: "Scott E. Post" Date: 1999-07-22 11:11:00 Subject: WTB woodie depth stops Need a depth stop for a filletster and another for a plow. Prefer the morticed in style instead of the "screw to the side" style, but will consider anything. ++++ End of thread 28085 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28086 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65191 (thread 28086) ---- From: "Scott E. Post" Date: 1999-07-22 11:10:00 Subject: WTB plow irons I'm gonna assume my posting a few days ago was eaten by the listserv to regain it's strength, so here goes again. I'm looking for a set of plow irons to build a plane around. Don't have to be from the same maker, just capable of fitting the same plane. Would like plenty of iron left, no pitting, etc... ++++ End of thread 28086 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28087 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65194 (thread 28087) ---- From: "Kelly Cox" Date: 1999-07-22 12:30:00 Subject: Round trip tool GG's; Now that the porch is populated again, I'll relate a story about my latest estate sale visit. Got to a local estate sale Tuesday morning, early enough to be #7 in line. Which is awfully early around here--these Midwesterners sometimes get to the sale at midnight to put their name on the list. Headed right for the basement, and quickly filled up a basket with odds & ends. Bundles of brace bits, a MF eggbeater (good only for parts, I later found) a few saws (can't pass them up, now can we?) a corner brace, a few yankee screwdrivers, a no-name block plane...all good bottomfeeder stuff. And I picked up a sliding bevel that looked to be in nice condition. Went from the estate sale to work, and brought a few of the tools in to put on the bookshelf (where several nice tools have been living while I'm waiting out my ApartmentGaloot phase). Had a closer look at the sliding bevel; it is a nice rosewood/brass example, nice ornate thumbscrew for locking the bevel, no brand on it but the name "BACH" is stamped on it in a few places. Ah ha! When I started working at Nicolet last year, a few co-workers quickly found out about my oldtool fascination, and I heard that a co-worker, Randy Bach, had sold most of his grandfather's woodworking tools about 15 years ago, when he was short on cash. So I took the tool to Randy, and sure enough, he remembered selling it to a co-worker, and it must have gone in a yard sale and ended up at the estate sale I attended. Randy was glad to get it back-- he regrets selling his grandfather's tools. Now that he's a little older, he seems to care a lot more about family heirlooms. I gave him the tool, since I only paid 50 cents for it. Made me feel good! Kelly Cox ApartmentGaloot Madison, WI ++++ End of thread 28087 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28088 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65195 (thread 28088) ---- From: "Kelly Cox" Date: 1999-07-22 12:54:00 Subject: scraper made of glass? GG's; Resending this, since it seems to have gotten lost in the ether the 1st time. Somebody I work with mentioned that he knew a cabinetmaker that did reproductions of old furniture and that cabinetmaker claimed to get the best surface by using a freshly broken piece of glass as a scraper. Anybody heard of this technique? Sounds like an interesting and maybe not too difficult way of making a hand scraper... Kelly Cox ApartmentGaloot Madison, WI ---- Start of Message 65197 (thread 28088) ---- From: TURFF49@a... Date: 1999-07-22 13:10:00 Subject: Re: scraper made of glass? When I was into refinishing furniture as a career, and when I was being taught by some of the oldtimers, they used to say that the best way to stripp the piece without damaging the woods patina with chemicals was to scrape with glass. I stripped an old hitchcock chair that had at least 7 coats of paint and it looked beautiful. The only drawback was it took me a day and a half so I lost money on the peice but had the satisfaction of seeing the quality. One hint it takes some practice, not so much on damaging the wood but making sure you don't cut yourself. Brian ---- Start of Message 65213 (thread 28088) ---- From: "Kremer" Date: 1999-07-22 16:56:00 Subject: Re: scraper made of glass? I have a book titled "The Dunlop Cabinet Makers" in which the author talks about scraping with a piece of glass. His take was that the glass was very effective, but he abandoned the technique after he found himself in the emergency room when his scraper broke. Brad +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ > ---- Start of Message 65214 (thread 28088) ---- From: b2d@e... (Duke of URLs) Date: 1999-07-23 00:06:00 Subject: Re: scraper made of glass? My Dad told me about this. My Grandfather, who was an upholsterer, had my Dad do the stripping in his shop when he (Dad) was a youngster. He'd break off an edge, use it for a while and then break off another edge. Thanks for the memory. Keith Bohn ---- Start of Message 65216 (thread 28088) ---- From: jtrud50939@a... Date: 1999-07-22 17:30:00 Subject: Re: scraper made of glass? <000401bed441$5ebab650$6b6c005-@m...> wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/oldtools/?start=51658 > Anybody heard of this technique? Sounds like an interesting and maybe not > too difficult > way of making a hand scraper... > > Kelly Cox > I have never tried this, but they used to smooth hardwood floors with glass scrapers. Power sanders made this technique obsolete. I havd been told that they used microscope slides. They are relatively cheap, and give four good edges before they are disposed of. It would be cheaper to cut up an old piece of glass, but slides would be uniform and probably less likely to cause injury. Greg ---- Start of Message 65226 (thread 28088) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1999-07-22 18:02:00 Subject: Re: scraper made of glass? On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 07:54:44 -0500 "Kelly Cox" writes: >Somebody I work with mentioned that he knew a cabinetmaker that did >reproductions of old >furniture and that cabinetmaker claimed to get the best surface by >using a freshly broken piece of glass as a scraper. > >Anybody heard of this technique? Sounds like an interesting and maybe >not too difficult way of making a hand scraper... > My favorite wood monger demonstrated this at the local Woodworking Guild meeting. Said once he tried it he gave up on the typical steel scraper. Claims it is easier and less expensive. You can break off a piece to match the profile you are scraping. I tried it and like it. But I'm not giving up my (cough)three(cough) #80's, or my #12 or any of the Independence Tool scrapers anytime soon. Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 65235 (thread 28088) ---- From: "George Langford, Sc.D." Date: 1999-07-22 22:15:00 Subject: Re: scraper made of glass? Hallo Kelly and sharp Galoots ! Kelly Cox asked whether there is a history of making & using scrapers made of glass ... Sure is. They're found in 30,000 year old middens in Siberia and other places in the Arctic as far west as Alaska & the Aleutian Islands. I found some in Mexico, but when I asked The List whether anyone had seen such artifacts in the continental US, I got no affirmative responses. So if The List starts up such a practice in the Lower 48, that will be a first. Actually, I'm referring to the so-called "microliths" made from obsidian (volcanic glass) by separating flakes (sized & shaped like Shick injector razor blades) from a central core which looks like a polygonal cigar. The American Indians made scrapers, too, but usually simply by making curved flakes similar to the chips made while shaping bifacial (arrowhead) points. I even found one in SWMBO's front yard in Devon, Chester County, PA. It is interesting that two different cultures used stone tools, one where the chips were the tools, and the other where the cores were. The Siberian aborigines kept the flakes & threw away the cores, and the American aborigines used the bifacial points (cores) and threw away (most of) the flakes. For woodworkers making plane surfaces, the main obstacles (besides safety) to the use of glass for scraper blades are that the fractures do not conveniently follow a straight line, nor is the edge hooked like a steel scraper's. Microscopists make glass knives for microtomes that cut thin sections from tissue, wood, and sometimes even metal in order to have sufficiently thin specimens for transmission of light or even electrons in their microscopes. Those knives do not have to be straight because the chips (the thin sections) are so thin as to flatten of their own accord when placed upon a flat surface. The use of microscope slides solves the straightness problem, because the slides are made with a glass cutter by scoring & breaking them (I think). We're on our own, of course, unless someone on The List owns a mechanized glass scoring machine ... Anyway, we've come about full circle now, from aboriginal microliths to microscope slides to woodworking. Hee, hee. [Disclaimer: Amenex doesn't sell microscope slides, Shick razor blaes, or microtomes, though we do sell microscope services.] Best regards, George Langford in growing humidity in dry SE PA amenex@a... ---- Start of Message 65251 (thread 28088) ---- From: Steve Jones Date: 1999-07-23 00:04:00 Subject: Re: scraper made of glass? At 07:54 AM 7/22/99 -0500, Kelly Cox wrote: >GG's; > >Somebody I work with mentioned that he knew a cabinetmaker that did >reproductions of old >furniture and that cabinetmaker claimed to get the best surface by using a >freshly broken >piece of glass as a scraper. > >Anybody heard of this technique? Sounds like an interesting and maybe not >too difficult >way of making a hand scraper... I went to high school with a couple of guys who owned Star class sailboats. Due to their unique rigging and 900-lb. keels, these boats have really long spars. Every year or two they would scrape down their masts and booms with broken glass prior to applying a new coat of spar varnish. FWIW. Steve Jones landlocked in Kokomo IN ---- Start of Message 65269 (thread 28088) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-07-23 09:22:00 Subject: Re: scraper made of glass? Yup, in my home country I saw many pros using glass scrapers. Mainly used for stripping off old paint and gunk by restorers. Be very careful, though. A glass edge is the sharpest blade you can imagine, particularly if it is snapped off by pulling rather than twisting. Ultra-microtomes used for preparing samples for electron microscopy used to have blades made this way. Dunno if they still do, but we're talking micron shavings here... Of course, it is also extremely brittle. So it might not last as long as a metal scraper. But it is easy to snap off another sharp edge, I suppose. Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@n... http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den ----- Original Message ----- From: Kelly Cox To: OLDTOOLS Sent: Thursday, 22 July 1999 22:54 Subject: scraper made of glass? > piece of glass as a scraper. > > Anybody heard of this technique? Sounds like an interesting and maybe not > too difficult > way of making a hand scraper... ---- Start of Message 65271 (thread 28088) ---- From: "DuPrie, James" Date: 1999-07-23 11:15:00 Subject: RE: scraper made of glass? yep, we still use glass for ultramicrotomes - at least us cheap bastuhds do. Those ritzy fancy pancy folks use diamond knives now..... BTW: we cut in angstroms. for microns you use a sled microtome and a steel blade.... --JD -----Original Message----- From: Nuno Souto [mailto:nsouto@n...] Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 5:22 AM To: OLDTOOLS Subject: Re: scraper made of glass? Yup, in my home country I saw many pros using glass scrapers. Mainly used for stripping off old paint and gunk by restorers. Be very careful, though. A glass edge is the sharpest blade you can imagine, particularly if it is snapped off by pulling rather than twisting. Ultra-microtomes used for preparing samples for electron microscopy used to have blades made this way. Dunno if they still do, but we're talking micron shavings here... Of course, it is also extremely brittle. So it might not last as long as a metal scraper. But it is easy to snap off another sharp edge, I suppose. Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@n... http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den ----- Original Message ----- From: Kelly Cox To: OLDTOOLS Sent: Thursday, 22 July 1999 22:54 Subject: scraper made of glass? > piece of glass as a scraper. > > Anybody heard of this technique? Sounds like an interesting and maybe not > too difficult > way of making a hand scraper... ---- Start of Message 65275 (thread 28088) ---- From: "George Langford, Sc.D." Date: 1999-07-23 12:23:00 Subject: Re: scraper made of glass? Hallo cuthroat Galoots ! Kelly Cox started this thread with a question about the use of scrapers made from broken glass; and then Nuno Suoto chimed in with a reference to ultramicrotomes. Nearly simultaneously, on the Microscopy listserver, another thread started, having to do with the making of microtome knives; while there is not much need for all of you to start subscribing immediately to that list, there is a monthly archive at http://www.msa.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/MicroscopyArchives.html which of course will not yet have that thread. Try again shortly after the end of July. Anyhow, the discussion centers around four main subjects: 1. Alternatives to diamond knives (!); 2. Use of vitreous carbon knives as one alternative; 3. What top bevel angle to use (55 vs. std. 45 degrees; and 4. Peripheral references to the breaking of glass knives. No microscopists have yet tried Scary Sharp ... clearly they're missing something by not subscribing to OldTools ! Mebbe Ron Hock should read about what the competition's doing with diamond & vitreous carbon blades ... Best regards, George Langford, on a humid morning in SE PA amenex@a... ---- Start of Message 65278 (thread 28088) ---- From: "DuPrie, James" Date: 1999-07-23 12:31:00 Subject: RE: scraper made of glass? george sez: No microscopists have yet tried Scary Sharp ... clearly they're missing something by not subscribing to OldTools ! JD replies: nah, us microscopists started using glass plates and fine abrasives long ago..... I have a vintage 1930 knife sharpener that moves the edge back and forth on a glass plate. YOu squirt the abrasive (usually oil-based) onto the plate, and let it run. Every few hours of use, you re-frost and grind the plate flat again.... --JD ---- Start of Message 65284 (thread 28088) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-07-23 12:50:00 Subject: RE: scraper made of glass? > > yep, we still use glass for ultramicrotomes - at least us cheap bastuhds do. > Those ritzy fancy pancy folks use diamond knives now..... BTW: we cut in > angstroms. for microns you use a sled microtome and a steel blade.... > --JD Is there no end to the ineteresting day-time occupations of galloots? BugBear. (a dirt common computer guy) ---- Start of Message 65288 (thread 28088) ---- From: "DuPrie, James" Date: 1999-07-23 13:23:00 Subject: RE: scraper made of glass? lets see. the "career" list so far (in order): stock car driver firefighter paramedic ER tech University student research assistant (biology) university faculty (biology) net geek phone geek Unix geek code geek QA geek management hack. --JD -----Original Message----- From: bugbear@c... [mailto:bugbear@c...] Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 10:16 AM To: JDuPrie@c...; OLDTOOLS@l... Subject: RE: scraper made of glass? > > yep, we still use glass for ultramicrotomes - at least us cheap bastuhds do. > Those ritzy fancy pancy folks use diamond knives now..... BTW: we cut in > angstroms. for microns you use a sled microtome and a steel blade.... > --JD Is there no end to the ineteresting day-time occupations of galloots? BugBear. (a dirt common computer guy) ---- Start of Message 65290 (thread 28088) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-07-23 13:48:00 Subject: Re: scraper made of glass? ----- Original Message ----- From: George Langford, Sc.D. Sent: Friday, 23 July 1999 22:23 Subject: Re: scraper made of glass? > of microtome knives; while there is not much need > for all of you to start subscribing immediately to that > list, Yikes, not another one! > > http://www.msa.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/MicroscopyArchives.html > Now you done it! > which of course will not yet have that thread. Try again > shortly after the end of July. No, I ain't touching that one with a ten foot pole. Have enough trouble with the lists I subscribe to... Must resist temptation. Hrrrrmmmm!!!!!! > 1. Alternatives to diamond knives (!); > 2. Use of vitreous carbon knives as one alternative; > 3. What top bevel angle to use (55 vs. std. 45 degrees; and > 4. Peripheral references to the breaking of glass knives. WTH is a "vitreous carbon knife"? That what Darth Vader shaves with? > > No microscopists have yet tried Scary Sharp ... clearly > they're missing something by not subscribing to OldTools ! > ROFL! > Mebbe Ron Hock should read about what the competition's > doing with diamond & vitreous carbon blades ... Yikes! Maybe another line of plane blades for us to spend our moolah on? ;-) Seriously, I hope I haven't strayed with the aside about the microtome blades. But I never cease to be amazed at the imense variety of day jobs this group of galoots has. What a fine bunch of people! Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@n... http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den ---- Start of Message 65295 (thread 28088) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 1999-07-24 14:33:00 Subject: Re: scraper made of glass? Nuno Souto wrote: >From: George Langford, Sc.D. >> No microscopists have yet tried Scary Sharp ... clearly >> they're missing something by not subscribing to OldTools ! >ROFL! Nah, don't think it'd help anyway. They'd soon be knee-deep in comparisons of the tolerances of Jiffy jars vs Coke bottles and spending the rest of their time cursing those Ball collectors for using up all the *really* good, old-timey yellow and blue glass. ---- Start of Message 65298 (thread 28088) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-07-23 14:31:00 Subject: Re: scraper made of glass? ----- Original Message ----- From: Nichael Cramer >snip > their time cursing those Ball collectors for using up all the *really* > good, old-timey yellow and blue glass. Ya mean the one with the really flat bottoms and the square sides? ;-) Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@n... http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den ---- Start of Message 65310 (thread 28088) ---- From: georgew@m... Date: 1999-07-23 16:32:00 Subject: RE: scraper made of glass? JD writes: lets see. the "career" list so far (in order): stock car driver firefighter paramedic ER tech University student research assistant (biology) university faculty (biology) net geek phone geek Unix geek code geek QA geek management hack. --JD Hey, Let's not forget old broken down sailors! George ---- Start of Message 65338 (thread 28088) ---- From: eoh@k... Date: 1999-07-23 19:30:00 Subject: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? From: Esther Heller JD said: lets see. the "career" list so far (in order): stock car driver firefighter paramedic ER tech University student research assistant (biology) university faculty (biology) net geek phone geek Unix geek code geek QA geek management hack. I am a statistician, and I know of 2 MD's (one I'm not sure and one psychiatrist), a camera designer, an airplane pilot, and a history professor, not to mentions all those guys actually trying to make a living woodworking. Esther (also qualifies as QA geek) eoh@k... ---- Start of Message 65398 (thread 28088) ---- From: "Jon T. Patten" Date: 1999-07-25 04:45:00 Subject: Re: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? Okay, I'll add to the list. Failure Analyst(analyze failed semiconductor ICs). - Jon Patten PS. I'm so glad to see the list back up, I'm even reading non oldtools related stuff. 8^) eoh@k... wrote: > From: Esther Heller > > JD said: > lets see. the "career" list so far (in order): > stock car driver > firefighter > paramedic > ER tech > University student > research assistant (biology) > university faculty (biology) > net geek > phone geek > Unix geek > code geek > QA geek > management hack. > > I am a statistician, and I know of 2 MD's (one I'm not sure > and one psychiatrist), a camera designer, an airplane pilot, > and a history professor, not to mentions all those guys actually > trying to make a living woodworking. > > Esther (also qualifies as QA geek) > eoh@k... > > -- ---- Start of Message 65413 (thread 28088) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 1999-07-26 00:45:00 Subject: Re: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? To all these you can add my career: Telecommunications lawyer. On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 00:45:44 -0400, Jon T. Patten wrote: > I'll add to the list. Failure Analyst(analyze failed semiconductor >ICs). >eoh@k... wrote: >> JD said: >> lets see. the "career" list so far (in order): >> stock car driver >> firefighter >> paramedic >> ER tech >> University student >> research assistant (biology) >> university faculty (biology) >> net geek >> phone geek >> Unix geek >> code geek >> QA geek >> management hack. >> I am a statistician, and I know of 2 MD's (one I'm not sure >> and one psychiatrist), a camera designer, an airplane pilot, >> and a history professor, not to mentions all those guys actually >> trying to make a living woodworking. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA avogadro@b... (also avogadro@w...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA avogadro@b... (also avogadro@w...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 65418 (thread 28088) ---- From: JPark1812@a... Date: 1999-07-26 01:50:00 Subject: Re: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? Okay How about Historical Archaeologist/Parks Administrator Jim Parker ---- Start of Message 65419 (thread 28088) ---- From: JPagona@a... Date: 1999-07-26 01:44:00 Subject: Re: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? Count me in as a construction adminstrator for an architectural firm. In a message dated 7/25/99 8:49:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, avogadro@b... writes: << To all these you can add my career: Telecommunications lawyer. On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 00:45:44 -0400, Jon T. Patten wrote: > I'll add to the list. Failure Analyst(analyze failed semiconductor >ICs). >eoh@k... wrote: >> JD said: >> lets see. the "career" list so far (in order): >> stock car driver >> firefighter >> paramedic >> ER tech >> University student >> research assistant (biology) >> university faculty (biology) >> net geek >> phone geek >> Unix geek >> code geek >> QA geek >> management hack. >> I am a statistician, and I know of 2 MD's (one I'm not sure >> and one psychiatrist), a camera designer, an airplane pilot, >> and a history professor, not to mentions all those guys actually >> trying to make a living woodworking. >> ---- Start of Message 65420 (thread 28088) ---- From: Joe and Rhonda DiPietro Date: 1999-07-26 02:06:00 Subject: Re: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? GG's: OK, I'll bite (no pun intended) my career, college professor, health technologies Joe D. > To all these you can add my career: Telecommunications lawyer. > > On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 00:45:44 -0400, Jon T. Patten wrote: > > I'll add to the list. Failure Analyst(analyze failed semiconductor > >ICs). > >eoh@k... wrote: > >> JD said: > >> lets see. the "career" list so far (in order): > >> stock car driver > >> firefighter > >> paramedic > >> ER tech > >> University student > >> research assistant (biology) > >> university faculty (biology) > >> net geek > >> phone geek > >> Unix geek > >> code geek > >> QA geek > >> management hack. > >> I am a statistician, and I know of 2 MD's (one I'm not sure > >> and one psychiatrist), a camera designer, an airplane pilot, > >> and a history professor, not to mentions all those guys actually > >> trying to make a living woodworking. ---- Start of Message 65441 (thread 28088) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-07-26 11:39:00 Subject: Re: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? Wulp, here are the biggies. Acid mine drainage remediator (someone who fixes bad water) Ex - magazine publisher Ex - plumber/electrician Ex - cabinet/furniture maker/restorer Ex - rough (frame) carpenter Ex - hippie There were a lot of short term gigs inbetween especially the bottom few. Including, general handyman, museum curator, logger, road builder, tree planter, lawn boy, roofer, mechanics helper, survey crew, bum and general layabout yours, Scott ---- Start of Message 65446 (thread 28088) ---- From: SSalbWW@a... Date: 1999-07-26 12:13:00 Subject: Re: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? And I'm sure plenty of lawyers. -S. Salb Employment Lawyer ---- Start of Message 65459 (thread 28088) ---- From: "Paul T. Radovanic" Date: 1999-07-26 15:29:00 Subject: Re: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? Geez. Am I the only peddler on the list? ......of food service equipment. Paul Radovanic Just say (tmPL) that all the stainless steel scraps come in handy for electro-zapping..... > > On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 00:45:44 -0400, Jon T. Patten wrote: > > I'll add to the list. Failure Analyst(analyze failed semiconductor > >ICs). >eoh@k... wrote: >> JD said: >> lets see. the "career" list > so far (in order): >> stock car driver >> firefighter >> paramedic >> ER > tech >> University student >> research assistant (biology) >> university > faculty (biology) >> net geek >> phone geek >> Unix geek >> code geek >> > QA geek >> management hack. >> I am a statistician, and I know of 2 MD's > (one I'm not sure >> and one psychiatrist), a camera designer, an > airplane pilot, >> and a history professor, not to mentions all those > guys actually >> trying to make a living woodworking. > >> > ---- Start of Message 65462 (thread 28088) ---- From: Pierre Fogal Date: 1999-07-26 17:20:00 Subject: Re: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? ** Reply to note from SSalbWW@a... Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:13:36 -0400 (EDT) My career ?? Atmospheric Physicist Sometimes purveyor and user of stratospheric balloons.... all landings in Finland gaurenteed! Pierre Dr. Pierre Fogal Physics Dept., University of Denver Denver, CO, USA. ---- Start of Message 65473 (thread 28088) ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 1999-07-26 18:52:00 Subject: Re: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? At 11:29 AM 7/26/99 -0400, Paul T. Radovanic wrote: > > >Geez. Am I the only peddler on the list? > ......of food service equipment. > Well I'm just basic PC geek..self employed or so I like to think Tony ________________________________________________________ Consider the lowly gimlet... ________________________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 65476 (thread 28088) ---- From: Eric Damien Berna Date: 1999-07-26 20:54:00 Subject: Re: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? My job: Technology Manager for a graphic design firm. So I manage new tech, and play with old tech. Eric Damien Berna eric@t... ---- Start of Message 65478 (thread 28088) ---- From: "Walker, Fred (OD)" Date: 1999-07-26 21:06:00 Subject: RE: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? I KNOW that I am not the only faceless bureaucrat in the crowd. Deputy Director of Human Resources at the National Institutes of Health (affectionately known as "The world's foremost biomedical research facility"). -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Seo Sent: Monday, July 26, 1999 2:52 PM To: OLDTOOLS@l... Subject: Re: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? At 11:29 AM 7/26/99 -0400, Paul T. Radovanic wrote: > > >Geez. Am I the only peddler on the list? > ......of food service equipment. > Well I'm just basic PC geek..self employed or so I like to thin k Tony ---- Start of Message 65495 (thread 28088) ---- From: Dick Durbin Date: 1999-07-27 00:30:00 Subject: RE: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? Regulatory Supervisor/Consultant for the Florida Public Service Commission (the folks who regulate utilities in the Sunshine State.) Dick Durbin "Who is out there to provide us with a Tallahassee, FL personal example of virtue and www.tfn.net/~ddurbin self-sacrifice for a higher good?"-Calvin On Mon, 26 Jul 1999, Walker, Fred (OD) wrote: > I KNOW that I am not the only faceless bureaucrat in the crowd. > ---- Start of Message 65496 (thread 28088) ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1999-07-26 23:59:00 Subject: RE: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? ** Reply to note from "Walker, Fred (OD)" Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:06:57 -0400 I got the best of all, RETIRED. Oops, SWMBO just handed me the job jar for the rest of my life. ernie fisch ---- Start of Message 65500 (thread 28088) ---- From: "Chuck Zitur" Date: 1999-07-26 12:49:00 Subject: RE: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? Paul T. Radovanic wrote: > > >Geez. Am I the only peddler on the list? > ......of food service equipment. > Well, Paul if it makes you feel any better: Commercial and institutional sales (Cleaning supplies and equipment) Chuck Zitur Billings, Mt ---- Start of Message 65502 (thread 28088) ---- From: jenisi@b... Date: 1999-07-27 01:32:00 Subject: Re: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? At 11:29 AM 7/26/99 -0400, Paul T. Radovanic wrote: > > >Geez. Am I the only peddler on the list? > ......of food service equipment. Used to be, till I had a twinge of conscious....:-) Put me down as phone geek. Ed Hennessy ---- Start of Message 65515 (thread 28088) ---- From: David Strommen Date: 1999-07-27 00:23:00 Subject: Re: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? Once a peddler always a peddler - sold textiles for 20 years - nonwoven fabrics - felts Now teach at a therapeutic preschool and love it (although after the kids leave some days - I am the one that could benifit from some therapy!) Dave Strommen > Paul T. Radovanic wrote: > Geez. Am I the only peddler on the list? > ......of food service equipment. > > Paul Radovanic > > Just say (tmPL) that all the stainless steel scraps come in handy > for electro-zapping..... > > > > > On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 00:45:44 -0400, Jon T. Patten wrote: > > > I'll add to the list. Failure Analyst(analyze failed > semiconductor > > >ICs). >eoh@k... wrote: >> JD said: >> lets see. the "career" > list > > so far (in order): >> stock car driver >> firefighter >> paramedic > >> ER > > tech >> University student >> research assistant (biology) >> > university > > faculty (biology) >> net geek >> phone geek >> Unix geek >> code > geek >> > > QA geek >> management hack. >> I am a statistician, and I know of 2 > MD's > > (one I'm not sure >> and one psychiatrist), a camera designer, an > > airplane pilot, >> and a history professor, not to mentions all > those > > guys actually >> trying to make a living woodworking. ---- Start of Message 65544 (thread 28088) ---- From: "Russ Ellsworth" Date: 1999-07-27 13:35:00 Subject: Re: Galoot careers: RE: scraper made of glass? Retired peddlar of 2-way radio, microwave, cellular infrastructure equipment. Russ Ellsworth Boise, Idaho > > > >Geez. Am I the only peddler on the list? > > ......of food service equipment. > > > Well, Paul if it makes you feel any better: > Commercial and institutional sales (Cleaning supplies and equipment) > Chuck Zitur > Billings, Mt > > -- > > ++++ End of thread 28088 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28089 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65196 (thread 28089) ---- From: "Generations Furniture" Date: 1999-07-22 12:59:00 Subject: Witherby question ---------- > From: Generations Furniture > To: oldtools@l... > Subject: Witherby question > Date: Monday, July 19, 1999 7:34 AM > > GG's > > Had a good weekend tool hunting. Scored some chisels, a saw and a couple > of planes. > > My question concerns a set of Witherby chisels which I picked up in an > antique mall. There is a 1 3/8", 3/4", and 1/2". Lengths are 10", 9 3/4" > and 9 1/2" overall. > > The chisels appear to never been sharpened, but have no handles. > Ordinarily, this would not be a problem, as I can make handles for any > chisels previously seen. However, these have a very unusual tang. Instead > of a socket or tapered tang, they taper larger from the blade upward for > about 2 3/4", then taper back smaller. IOW, the tang is larger in the > middle than at the ends. In the box with the chisels is a collar which is > externally threaded, and has a larger inside diameter than the tang at any > point. Is everyone thoroughly confused? If I'm not explaining this well, > tell me and I'll try again. > > Anyway, the point is, I need to find a way to mount handles on these > chisels. They're way too nice to languish in their wood box. Anybody have > any ideas? > > I'll appreciate any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, etc. > > Thanks, > Bruce Z. > Scratchin' his head ++++ End of thread 28089 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28090 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65198 (thread 28090) ---- From: lgs15716@c... Date: 1999-07-22 13:28:00 Subject: I'm having trouble with UPS, Please help me! Greetings from the porch: Help me! Yes, I need help (no nasty comments now). Recently I was able to acquire a Miller Falls Boring Machine in wonderful condition for the deserts of Arizona. I bought it from a gentleman in Phoenix and had it shipped by UPS ground insured for the full amount I paid for it. The gentleman on the other end of the transaction packed it very well but apparently short of a krypton box this was not enough. The mount for the handle of the boring machine arrived bend and cracked. The box looks like it was through the war. To make a long story short, I contacted UPS who told me to get an estimate to fix it. A local blacksmith who is also a master of metalworking rightfully said that the the cast iron part can't be repaired properly but needs to be prefabed this will cost about $300 (it's about one days labor). To get back to UPS they are now saying they don't want to pay because the item is a "one of a kind", an "antique" and the part is not "worth" the $250 the machine was insured for. I once had an antique safe timer lock shipped by USPS Priority and the etched glass door arrived broken, an art glass company in Indiania estimated they could replace it for about the cost of the insured value ($150). The post office gave me the insurance money without hassle. This is not the case with UPS apparently! What am I to do? Any Suggestions. Lou ---- Start of Message 65200 (thread 28090) ---- From: "Matthew J. Prusik, Jr." Date: 1999-07-22 13:58:00 Subject: Re: I'm having trouble with UPS, Please help me! Lou: Bottom line with insurance is if you paid for it and the item arrived damaged, UPS is OBLIGATED to pay for the repairs up to the value of insurance. Best bet, get the smithy to write and estimate for $250.00 and agree to pay him an extra $50.00 to do the work. Present the bill to UPS as a claim for damages and advise them that they are obligated to honor the insurance because you paid for it and no limitations on overage were disclosed when the item was shipped. Moreover, tell them if they DO NOT honor their obligation, you will have the item repaired and take 'em to small claims court. Knowing UPS, I'm surprised at how much trouble this is taking. Moreover, I think once you get far enough up the chain of command, they will pay the claim. BTW, I am a lawyer even though I do not play one on TV . This is not legal advice upon which you or anyone reading this posting can rely upon as same and sue me. If you want more detail, please contact me by private e-mail. Congrats on the boring machine and best of luck in getting it repaired. Matt ---- Start of Message 65202 (thread 28090) ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 1999-07-22 14:09:00 Subject: Re: I'm having trouble with UPS, Please help me! --- lgs15716@c... wrote: > Miller Falls Boring Machine in wonderful condition > To get back to UPS they are now saying they don't > want to pay because the > item is a "one of a kind", an "antique" and the part > is not "worth" the > $250 the machine was insured for. +++++++++ Martin J Donnelly's 1999 catalog of tools has a number of these boring machines for sale, and I would think that this would be usable as a reference for value and availability. If I recall correctly, he has 3 or 4 of them listed. And they are not as cheap as yours was! Goof luck! === Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 65218 (thread 28090) ---- From: Mark van Roojen Date: 1999-07-22 17:34:00 Subject: Re: I'm having trouble with UPS, Please help me! At 09:28 AM 7/22/99 -0400, lgs15716@c... wrote: >To make a long story short, I contacted UPS who told me to get an estimate >to fix it. A local blacksmith who is also a master of metalworking >rightfully said that the the cast iron part can't be repaired properly but >needs to be prefabed this will cost about $300 (it's about one days labor). >To get back to UPS they are now saying they don't want to pay because the >item is a "one of a kind", an "antique" and the part is not "worth" the >$250 the machine was insured for. I have been reimbursed for antique Radio amplifier gear that UPS damaged without trouble and I specifically knew it was antique. In fact they let me keep the damaged item because I told them that I could not easily find a replacement and I wanted to use their settlement money for repair rather than replacement. And they paid me the full value I had paid for the item, not my lower (seat of the pants) estimate for the damage. My guess is that your problem is establishing a market value for the item, and that you can probably get them to pay that. One way to establish the market value is the price you paid. Another is to find similar or identical items advertised at the same price. This may not be the $350 it will take to repair the item, as some items cost more than their market value to repair. I'm not a lawyer, and I am not sure of the terms of their insurance, but my guess is that if you paid for insurance, if it was wrapped properly (don't throw the damaged box away they may want to see it), and if you can establish that the market value of the item is as high as the cost of needed repairs, you should be able to collect. This is assuming that there is not a written exclusion on the form you signed when mailing it for this sort of item. For what it is worth, Mark Mark van Roojen P.O. Box 83836 Department of Philosophy Lincoln, NE 68501-3836 University of Nebraska (402) 438-3724 (h) 1010 Oldfather Hall (402) 472-2428 (w) Lincoln, NE 68588-0321 (402) 472-0626 (fax) (msv@u...) Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/~mvr1 / ---- Start of Message 65227 (thread 28090) ---- From: Wesley Groot Date: 1999-07-22 18:13:00 Subject: Re: I'm having trouble with UPS, Please help me! Hi Lou and Galoots. I too just received a heavy crate from UPS, and it had been dropped, and the crate was ruined. Fortunately, the heavy cast iron item contained within was not damaged. The vise inside was wired to the framework of the crate and the wires had snapped! It must have fallen from at least a few feet. I've never had any problem with USPS shipping, after having shipped and received over a hundred items of differing sizes and weights. Is it the general consensus of the porch that UPS is the more dangerous of the two options? Or is it just the popular topic today? Wes lgs15716@c... wrote: > > Greetings from the porch: > Help me! snip ---- Start of Message 65258 (thread 28090) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-07-23 01:58:00 Subject: Re: I'm having trouble with UPS, Please help me! Wes writes : > Is it the general consensus of the porch that UPS is the more >dangerous of the two options? Or is it just the popular topic today? Just today I finished rebuilding my Foley 61 saw filer after UPS did its best to destroy it. I had to make a new pulley, motor mount and file holder as well as unbend and undent some other pieces. I was very lucky that the big intricate castings (more so for the 61 than later models) survided unscathed. They wouldn't have been replaceable. For various reasons I didn't make a claim so can't offer information on how they honour them. I can certainly attest to the fact that do not treat their packages with respect. I would suggest that anything heavy being shipped by UPS be contained in a box of very thick cardboard, that all corners be protected with plastic 'angle irons' and the whole thing be strapped with metal strapping. I had a retoother shipped this way by UPS and it came through without damage. I've also thought that shooting the whole inside of the package with urethane foam to fill all the voids once the item (wrapped) is in the box would help it survive the drop down the concrete stairs (or out of the 747). On a slightly different note, yesterday I filed my first saw and today retoothed my first saw. While the machines don't allow one to become one with the file, they do accomplish the work much more quickly and uniformly than I've been able to do by hand (gee, that sounds familiar). Soon I'll be gearing up to sharpen the 50-odd saws that I've accumulated (to use of course). I first have to decide how I'm going to distribute the tpi's over the diffent saw sizes... ---- Start of Message 65301 (thread 28090) ---- From: "Becky & Tim Hammond" Date: 1999-07-23 14:55:00 Subject: Re: I'm having trouble with UPS, Please help me! From: Wesley Groot > > Is it the general consensus of the porch that UPS is the more >dangerous of the two options? Or is it just the popular topic today? > After several bad experiences with UPS, (including the fact that they only publish a 1-800 number and the person who answers it can't tell you anything unless you've got your package in hand), I finally gave up doing business with them. If a seller can only ship by UPS, I say "thanks, but I'll take my business elsewhere." In the last three years, I've only found one company that let me walk away. FWIW, though, my brother in Oregon and my parents in Oklahoma say just the opposite is true there. They won't ship by USPS if UPS is an option. -- Tim, in Alaska ++++ End of thread 28090 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28091 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65204 (thread 28091) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-22 22:41:00 Subject: WTB looking for old irons I am looking for some thick irons for my planes. 2" down to about 1" I want to make a skewed low angle plane and a skewed rabbet plane and a few others. are there any tapered irons out there? thicker at the top then the bottom? Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ++++ End of thread 28091 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28092 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65205 (thread 28092) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-22 22:41:00 Subject: Why do japanese planes work with less effort? Making my own planes and using others I have found that a well set up japanese plane is far easier to pull "push would be just as easy" the wood. Now I do not have one that is that well set up. but am working on it. So I am wonder what ar e the factors. The first one is the plane iron. I am sure people will argue But I think no one makes as good of iron as a good japanese plane iron is made. I mean what tool company could spend 90% of the cost on the iron? The iron is very thick very hard usually rc 65 to 66 and the combo of wrought iron and white or blue steel is a killer combo. Second is the second iron or chip breaker. In a japanese plane it is more to help keep the main blade from flexing the shape and way it is wedged into the plane against the main blade is a far tighter fit then a chip breaker in most o f the planes I have seen. Third and very important is the way the iron is held in place. The blade is wedged into the body with a slot on each side of the plane. it is in there very tight. I think far tighter then a wedge against a bar or with the standard method in a stanley plane. I have seen some old wood planes that wedge the iron in with a wedge against the edges. I am planing on playing with the edge wedging on my next planes using hock irons. a groove on each side then a wooden wedge on both sides to hold it in place. I think this will be far more solid then the bar and a wedge. I may have Ron change the chip breaker for me not sure. I want to bring the western style plane up a few notches. any ideas are welcome d Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ---- Start of Message 65228 (thread 28092) ---- From: "Brent D. Beach" Date: 1999-07-22 18:20:00 Subject: Re: Why do japanese planes work with less effort? On Thu, 22 Jul, Steve Knight wrote: >Making my own planes and using others I have found that a well >set up japanese plane is far easier to pull "push would be just >as easy" the wood. Now I do nothave one that is that well set >up. but am working on it. So I am wonder what are the factors. If you are just wondering about effort and not about quality of cut then the answer is probably that the japanese planes are wood bodied. Wood just slides a lot more easily on wood than cast iron does, even when waxed. If you are going to do a lot of planing, a wood bodied plane will make it a lot easier. I have been trying out transitionals for just this reason. SPEAKING of transitionals, if you get and tune a transitional, be careful! Just got a Stanley #29 and was cleaning it up. Since all the hardware was off the body (in the electrolysis tub), decided it would be a snap to joint the sole. A minute later it was perfectly flat (lap a metal bodied #7 that quickly). However, after replacing the hardware, the sole was significantly out of line. Guess there was a bend in the casting because the front lifted about 1/8" between the toe and the mouth. Flattening the sole with the hardware in place applies to transitionals as it does to metal bodied planes. Should I shim under the casting at the knob to force it back flat, or reflatten the sole? Brent Brent Beach, Victoria, BC, CA ---- Start of Message 65231 (thread 28092) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 1999-07-23 06:38:00 Subject: Re: Why do japanese planes work with less effort? Brent D. Beach wrote: > [...] >Should I shim under the casting at the knob to force it back >flat, or reflatten the sole? Even if you do the other things, you should also do the last one. Having all the hardware in place will always put stress (read "distortion") on the sole --this is true even of metal planes. You should only joint/flatten/lap the sole with the plane all set up for work[*]. Nichael [Except, of course, remember to retract the iron. DAMHIKT; right JohnG?] ++++ End of thread 28092 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28093 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65206 (thread 28093) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-22 22:48:00 Subject: FS 60 1/2 stanley block plane It is in good shape. not too much japanning on the inside but the chrome cap ha s most of the chrome. it has some rough spots on the cap and some small pitting. the iron is a cheep newer replacement. pat date is 2-18-13 adjustable mouth great for end grain. brass front knob. No rust. 64.00 Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ++++ End of thread 28093 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28094 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65207 (thread 28094) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-07-22 22:48:00 Subject: black marks all round On oak, that is. I'm attempting to be gallootish and finish my project (an English Oak plant stand) by planing. Trouble is, fresh oak surfaces, and a iron/steel bodied plane don't go well togther. This didn't matter during construction, but it matters now. My hack solution has been to clean the sole of the plane every 5 minutes. The black takes a while to form. Little marks are being removed with scrapers. Another solution would be a wooden bodied plane. I have one, but stopped it working well by ill-advised tinkering (post passim) Anyone else run into this one? BugBear. ---- Start of Message 65211 (thread 28094) ---- From: "Aaron C. Davis" Date: 1999-07-22 16:34:00 Subject: Re: black marks all round one word 'wax' the sole On Thu, 22 Jul 1999, Paul Womack wrote: >(an English Oak plant stand) by planing. Trouble is, >fresh oak surfaces, and a iron/steel bodied plane >don't go well togther. ---- Start of Message 65223 (thread 28094) ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 1999-07-22 18:03:00 Subject: Re: black marks all round > On Thu, 22 Jul 1999, Paul Womack wrote: > > >(an English Oak plant stand) by planing. Trouble is, > >fresh oak surfaces, and a iron/steel bodied plane > >don't go well togther. Paully Rad turned me on to the trick of applying a washcoat of blonde shellac to troublesome woods like oak and mahogany to help alleviate this problem. This is a combination of your sweaty hands coming into contact with both the metal parts of your plane, and the wood. The acid in your sweat reacts with the tannin in the wood, leaving streaks of black and blue. The acid also puts a nice thin layer of oxidation on your plane, if it isn't waxed thoroughly. If you're getting black marks from the planes, you're plane done gots oxidation on it. polish it up and wax it. Now if only a good shellacking would work so well on my kids. Paddy ---- Start of Message 65435 (thread 28094) ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1999-07-23 09:23:00 Subject: Re: black marks all round Paul has a tannin problem. . . >I'm attempting to be gallootish and finish my project >(an English Oak plant stand) by planing. Trouble is, >fresh oak surfaces, and a iron/steel bodied plane >don't go well togther. >This didn't matter during construction, but it matters >now. My hack solution has been to clean the sole >of the plane every 5 minutes. The black takes a while to form. (snipped) Tis not right.. Have you any iron filings, steel wool remeinders creeping in? Is the oak still green (unseasoned) with 'fresh' sap at the surface. Oak doesn't react this quickly to passing a plane over it. try a wipe of wax over the plane sole - or linseed oil. Is this just atmospheric? - what happens if you create a cut surface with another tool? - does it blacken again after scraping? - is the scraper steel? - no answers, but I suggest you look around for other potential culprits.. Paul Womack wrote: > On oak, that is. > > I'm attempting to be gallootish and finish my project > (an English Oak plant stand) by planing. Trouble is, > fresh oak surfaces, and a iron/steel bodied plane > don't go well togther. > > This didn't matter during construction, but it matters > now. My hack solution has been to clean the sole > of the plane every 5 minutes. The black takes a while to form. > Little marks are being removed with scrapers. > > Another solution would be a wooden bodied plane. I have > one, but stopped it working well by ill-advised tinkering > (post passim) > > Anyone else run into this one? > > BugBear. > > -- ++++ End of thread 28094 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28095 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65208 (thread 28095) ---- From: "Paul Jordan" Date: 1999-07-22 16:39:00 Subject: Buck Brothers label covered with masking tape? GG's Recently acquired a set of 10 Buck Bros. lathe chisels, originally purchased early 50's, barely used, in original box. I'm the second owner (cou-gloat-gh). However the box was covered by masking tape like it was going out of style, and the BB label is now covered. Does anyone have a hint on how to possibly remove the masking tape, at least over the BB label, without pulling up the label as well? Paul ---- Start of Message 65219 (thread 28095) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-07-22 17:31:00 Subject: Re: Buck Brothers label covered with masking tape? Hi Paul Haven't done this in your exact circumstance, but I have done a lot of work on pre 1900 medicine bottle labels. Acetone usually dissolves glue and leaves printers ink alone. Try an inconspicous spot first. If all's well, take a shallow pan or dish and cover th e whole box lid with it (placed label down in the dish). Do this outside, it stinks to high heaven. In a few minutes to a half hour everything will come off . Carefully separate the tape from the lable and put the label back on. The acetone will get rid of grease stains and help with mildew in the bargain. yours, Scott Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, 63742 Applegate Dr., Happy Camp, CA 96039 * scottg@s... PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/ ---- Start of Message 65237 (thread 28095) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-07-22 19:42:00 Subject: Re: Buck Brothers label covered with masking tape? Paul asked: "Does anyone have a hint on how to possibly remove the masking tape, at least over the BB label, without pulling up the label as well?" I've heard that citric acid works well, but have not tried it. I have had great experience with "Goo Gone". It works quickly and leaves no trace it was on the box unlike my experience with acetone which left a "wet" mark in the cardboard and actually removed some Stanley green and yellow. Goo Gone may appear to be oily, but it completely disappears and removes all the gum from price stickers and tape. It can be bought at most art supply stores and at some antique supply shops. *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * *********************************************** ---- Start of Message 65240 (thread 28095) ---- From: b2d@e... (Duke of URLs) Date: 1999-07-23 03:53:00 Subject: Re: Buck Brothers label covered with masking tape? My wife, 'xcooze me, make that She Who Must Be Finessed, swears by Avon Skin So Soft for skeeters and gummy labels. I've had mixed results with both though. Keith Bohn ---- Start of Message 65254 (thread 28095) ---- From: "Bill Taggart" Date: 1999-07-23 01:44:00 Subject: Re: Buck Brothers label covered with masking tape? George Langford wrote: > [Disclaimer: Amenex does not >have any financial interest in Q-tips, plastic bags, cotton >balls, or acetone, nor do we have any special dislike for red >paint or preference for black paint, however well it is baked >on, except on planes, of course.] What is this list coming to when one of our respected brethren feels it necessary to make this disclaimer??? ;-) ;-) ;-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) On the road in Livonia, MI - Maumee Bay, OH tomorrow... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 65261 (thread 28095) ---- From: John Gunterman Date: 1999-07-22 21:05:00 Subject: Re: Buck Brothers label covered with masking tape? At 09:44 PM 7/22/99 -0400, Bill Taggart wrote: >George Langford wrote: > > > [Disclaimer: Amenex does not > >have any financial interest in Q-tips, plastic bags, cotton > >balls, or acetone, nor do we have any special dislike for red > >paint or preference for black paint, however well it is baked > >on, except on planes, of course.] > > >What is this list coming to when one of our respected brethren >feels it necessary to make this disclaimer??? That is almost as good as the disclaimers in "The Great O'Deen/Bennett Flame Wars" ---- Start of Message 65303 (thread 28095) ---- From: "Jon Zimmers" Date: 1999-07-23 15:26:00 Subject: RE: Buck Brothers label covered with masking tape? Paul Jordan wrote ... > > Does anyone have a hint on how to possibly remove the masking > tape, at least > over the BB label, without pulling up the label as well? Hi, About a year ago, I heard that a local guy that goes to all of the garage sales bought a Woods hollow auger in the box. I called him about it, and he said I could buy it. By the time he got it over to me, about half of the edges of the box had been duct-taped. Somewhere I heard to use heat to get tape off. I tried a heat gun, and it softened tape so it could be pulled off easily. I tried to not get the box too hot. I had some Goof Off that I used to get rid of the glue. I wiped it on and then off very quickly, because I didn't know if it would eat the ink on the label. I'm going to try Goo Gone or acetone sometime when I get an opportunity. I was surprised to hear that you can soak a box in acetone and not ruin it. I'll try that too. Jon ++++ End of thread 28095 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28096 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65209 (thread 28096) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-22 23:40:00 Subject: FS 65 stanley block plane not a 6 1/2 It is in good shape. not too much japanning on the inside but the chrome cap ha s most of the chrome. it has some rough spots on the cap and some small pitting. the iron is a cheep newer replacement. pat date is 2-18-13 adjustable mouth great for end grain. brass front knob. No rust. 64.00 No cracks around the mouth.the pic for this type of plane is at http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan9.htm Leech says it is the best block plane stanley made. I agree. it would be great with a hock iron. Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ++++ End of thread 28096 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28097 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65210 (thread 28097) ---- From: "Shepard, Dave" Date: 1999-07-22 16:29:00 Subject: Cranes, woodie finishing Here's resend since the original went out before the list returned. No executive summary on this since it is mostly rambling. Well, I made my first trip to Cranes this past weekend and enjoyed it immensely. There aren't too many things that will get me out of bed at 5:00 AM. In fact the opportunity to pick up some new tools may be the only one (no kids yet, obviously). I just couldn't drag myself up there on Friday partly because I hadn't slept much on previous nights and partly because I knew I'd only get a couple hours before I had to show up at work. So I went on Saturday morning. I made it there by about 7:00. All but one vendor were already set up, and there was a decent smattering of people walking around. I don't think more than a couple dozen people showed up after me given the look of the parking lot. I guess the early birds get the worm. It took me a couple hours to make the rounds once or twice and chat with a couple people. There was an incredible amount of user grade tools there, and a fair smattering of nice stuff that was well above my price range. I had several items on my list to look for, and I was quite disappointed that I couldn't find any at decent prices from the vendors. I think I saw only one Stanley Everlast chisel all day. I was looking for a low knob 4-1/2 in good condition which was not to be found. Finally I wanted a Stanley #95 in user condition for a decent price. I did find a couple of 95's, but their prices were quite a bit above what they've been selling for on ebay and also what Walters lists as their approximate values. Unfortunately I had to leave in the afternoon before they made it up to the regular 95 they had in the auction. I was also looking for hollows and rounds by two different makers (Browning, Brooks)and was unable to find any. This didn't surprise me, but I was surprised to find so few woodies in attendance at the vendor tables. I'm also a bit of a machinist, so was disappointed at the machinist tools found there. I hadn't come up there expecting to find any at all, but there were a whole lot of them. However they were basically all dogmeat and not useful for much precision work. Given my failures to find the items I was seeking, I was somewhat despondent and thinking that this event wasn't all that special. Heck, 95% of what was there (on the vendor tables), I can find on ebay if I'm willing to wait a few weeks. Then it struck me how spoiled I am from ebay. Prior to that venue and the oldTools list, I could have gone years without having access to half of the stuff that was laid out in front of me that day. The internet in general has done more to open this hobby up to people like myself than pretty much any other element. Then there was the face-to-face aspect of the hobby and comraderie between all the people there which can't be found any place else. It's one thing to send email to each other, but meeting each other in person and talking face to face adds something to the experience that can't be gained in any other way. These people are just so darn nice and friendly, that you can't help but have a good time. That alone made the 3-1/2 hours of driving and the sleep toll well worth it. I only wish I could have stayed longer and joined in some of the fun activities that take place after selling is closed down for the day. I noticed the remnants of the standard transitional burning ceremony as I walked between the vendor tables. Another thing that struck me is that the average age of your tool collector/dealer/user is a bunch higher than mine. At 30 years, I seemed to be the youngest guy there, or at least down in the bottom five. I didn't meet too many galoots, but did say hi to Patrick and had a nice chat with Sandy Moss. He brought along his most impressive set of Clark & Williams hollows and rounds to display. Wowzers! I have never seen a set with such tight mouths, and the natural beech finish is beautiful! That got me to thinking about why every other hollow and round I've ever seen had medium to large mouths compared to these. My guess is it comes from a combination of wear on the leading edge and wear on the tapered iron such that it is thinner than it used to be. Fear not, I did not go home empty handed. I landed a great early user-grade Stanley #2 in the auction, and bought a nice Millers Falls corner brace from Sandy right before I headed out. Last topic: There were several woodies in the auction that were so dark as to be almost black. They were obviously beech from the grain, although it was tough to make out. I'm wondering if this horrible coloring is the result of the linseed soaking that was discussed recently on this list. I have many woodies that are a light to medium brown based on a light coating of linseed oil that was added by the dealer. (Such a finish does a great job of hiding surface finish problems such as water marks). I don't mind it to much, although I do prefer the natural beech coloring. However these black woodies in the auction were downright ugly. I felt revulsion seeing them thusly disfigured, and hope that is not what people end up with after a soaking. Thanks for reading through my ramble, and I'm hoping the Time & Strike auctions of the future are a reasonable facsimile of Cranes. If so, I'm planning on a more regular and prolonged future attendance. Cheers, --Dave Shepard ++++ End of thread 28097 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28098 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65212 (thread 28098) ---- From: Sanford Moss Date: 1999-07-22 16:39:00 Subject: The Peavey Toss at Crane's GGs I anyone wonders what a dead serious competition among oldtoolers looks like, you can see it at: http://134.88.16.130/peavey.htm Sandy **************************************** smoss@u... Home Page - http://134.88.12.107/wworking.htm Tools for Sale list - http://134.88.16.130/tfs.htm Phone (508) 999-8218 Fax (508) 999-8196 **************************************** ++++ End of thread 28098 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28099 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65222 (thread 28099) ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 1999-07-22 17:48:00 Subject: List Administrivia - PLEASE READ Most Gentle and Reconnected Ones, On occsasion, and for varied reasons, the listproc software distributing the many messages to our gregarious gaggle of galoots, suffers what can only be described as... a meltdown. When this occurs, many different things happen, but the most telling one is that the list traffic suddenly stops. Messages may or may not be queued (if the listproc is simply confused and has shutdown, then they most likely are, if a disk has crashed, then perhaps not), which means your very important FS, WTB or tool gloat may or may not have made it to the list. Invariably, the messages that do make it to the list are the pearls of wisdom reading something like this: Hey, is the list up? Imagine the thrill we all get, when the list does come up, and these messages flood the airwaves. Oh, the humanity! If you're at all in doubt about the state of the list, there are several things you can do, none of which involve posting to the list to see if it's working. send your query to: odeen@c... or kstagg@e... or, if you're really high-tech, point your browser to: http://listserv.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/liststat.cgi If you see the words: main listproc program (serverd) is running / sendmail running normally ... in a big green font, then it is highly likely the list is running normally. In this case, if you are still not receiving mail for a whole day or two, you need to contact either me or ken. We can determine if the listproc has kicked you off for your isp being too flaky, or if we've inadvertantly hosed your account or something. Ok, that's enough huffy technocrat speak from me. I'm super glad we're all back too. Paddy ---- Start of Message 65230 (thread 28099) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1999-07-22 18:38:00 Subject: Re: List Administrivia - PLEASE READ On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:48:18 -0700 Patrick Olguin writes: [snip] >If you're at all in doubt about the state of the list, there are several >things you can do, none of which involve posting to the list to see if >it's working. [snip] One thing that I do to quickly determine if the list has stopped is to check eGroups. New messages to the list are QUICKLY available there. So if you don't see any new messages there, you were probably not arbitrarily dropped from the list for saying your favorite tool is a Unisaw. And a heck of a lot less work for the listMoms. http://www.eGroups.com/list/oldtools/ Regards, Steve - who came this close to telling Ed Minch he crashed the system due to too many gloats. ---- Start of Message 65234 (thread 28099) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-07-22 19:02:00 Subject: Re: List Administrivia - PLEASE READ It takes a glitch like this to remind me that the OT list is there because of the Moms & Dads who set it up and maintain it. Thank you very much! Adam ---- Start of Message 65248 (thread 28099) ---- From: "Bill Taggart" Date: 1999-07-22 23:35:00 Subject: Re: List Administrivia - PLEASE READ Steve Reynolds wrote: > One thing that I do to quickly determine if the list has >stopped is to check eGroups. New messages to the list are QUICKLY >available there. So if you don't see any new messages there, you >were probably not arbitrarily dropped from the list for saying >your favorite tool is a Unisaw. Gee - ya think that could happen? One of my favorite tools is my Unisaw... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 65249 (thread 28099) ---- From: Minch Date: 1999-07-22 23:35:00 Subject: Re: List Administrivia - PLEASE READ Date: (Date Unavailable) Greg wrote: >I have never tried this, but they used to smooth hardwood floors with >glass scrapers. Power sanders made this technique obsolete. I havd >been told that they used microscope slides. They are relatively cheap, >and give four good edges before they are disposed of. It would be >cheaper to cut up an old piece of glass, but slides would be uniform >and probably less likely to cause injury. A glass microscope slide is awfully small to get two galootish paws around. I have a friend who took overa nd then retired from his father's wood flooring company. My friend started in the late 30's and he said that power sanders were just coming in then. He scraped many a floor with a 12-1/2. I know because I bought both his and his father's from him - amazingly beat, but still whole and perfectly usable. He showed me how to sharpen these things and he put an ENORMOUS burr on the blade - several times bigger than I ever would have imagined. Ed Minch Intrigued by the glass idea ---- Start of Message 65259 (thread 28099) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-07-23 01:56:00 Subject: Re: List Administrivia - PLEASE READ >Gee - ya think that could happen? > >One of my favorite tools is my Unisaw... Off with his head ! Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 65267 (thread 28099) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-07-23 12:42:00 Subject: Re: List Administrivia - PLEASE READ > > > >Gee - ya think that could happen? > > > >One of my favorite tools is my Unisaw... > > > Off with his head ! Fingers are more likely... BugBear. ---- Start of Message 65352 (thread 28099) ---- From: garyallan may Date: 1999-07-24 00:56:00 Subject: Re: List Administrivia - PLEASE READ --- Bill Taggart wrote: > Steve Reynolds wrote: > you > >were probably not arbitrarily dropped from the list > for saying > >your favorite tool is a Unisaw. > > > Gee - ya think that could happen? > > One of my favorite tools is my Unisaw... > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > William K. Taggart (Bill) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Moms: It's well known that Taggart's Unisaw is pedally operated, like Fred Flintstone's car...Please don't boot him...GAM _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 28099 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28100 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65224 (thread 28100) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-07-22 17:56:00 Subject: beeswax - very reasonable price! I had tried to contact the beeswax sources given recently in this mailing list but received no reply. I also struck out with several other addresses that I found on the web. Perhaps this is a special time of year and beekeepers are out doing mystical bee dances and not reading their mail? I dunno - anyway I did get some responses: Most notable was this: >Yes. It's $2.25/lb and you pay the shipping. It's not completely clean >having only been handled once and it's a little on the dark side if it >matters. I can send you a sample so let me know. Thanks, Alayne Meeks > Alayne Meeks: Well you cant beat the price! This is about a tenth of what it costs in my local hardware store and about 1/3rd of what others are asking on the web. At this price I dont mind a few dead bees in my wax. I can always strain it. Also, Alayne sent out 10lbs of wax upon request w/o waiting for payment. For those of you who are too fastidious to be bottom feeders I also got these replies: >"perfectly clean 1 lb blocks at $7.00/lb" -Jon Peavy >"10 lb blocks for $6.50/lb" - Bobbie Adam ++++ End of thread 28100 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28101 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65229 (thread 28101) ---- From: "Frank O'Donnell" Date: 1999-07-22 18:23:00 Subject: Benchtop: How flat is flat enough? Paddy says: > I'm super glad we're all back too. Me too. I posted a question around the time of the meltdown that looks like it will never make it to daylight. In my desperation I also tacked it up on rec.ww, but I suspect I'll get more expert feedback here. Once again with feeling: I'm finishing up a bench which, at the heart, is based on a Lee Valley slab of laminated maple 24" by 60" by 2-3/4". I wasn't too impressed with the slab's flatness and squareness when it arrived. If I lay an accurate straightedge across the shorter width, I can fit a .020" feeler blade between the straightedge and wood in the middle throughout most of the bench. Two of the edges are quite a bit off square -- more than 1/16" pokes out when I check them with a combo square. This will affect the skirts/vises I'm mounting there. So I'm tuning up the #8C (with a new Hock blade with the Guntermanized chill treatment) and my new L-N #62 and getting ready to schwinnngg those shavings. But I'm wondering: When will I know when to stop? Obviously it'd be nice to get it dead flat and square, but first, this'd take forever, and second, even when it's sealed the wood will move with the seasons anyway (although here in greater L.A. it never gets all _that_ humid). Would anyone like to venture a tolerance that they'd shoot for on something like this? I know this is subjective, but am interested in the range of galootish opinions. Frank South Pasadena, CA fod@n... ---- Start of Message 65257 (thread 28101) ---- From: John Gunterman Date: 1999-07-22 21:01:00 Subject: Re: Benchtop: How flat is flat enough? At 11:23 AM 7/22/99 -0700, Frank O'Donnell wrote: >Paddy says: > > > I'm super glad we're all back too. > >Me too. yeah. >I'm finishing up a bench which, at the heart, is based on a >Lee Valley slab of laminated maple 24" by 60" by 2-3/4". Hey Mine is as well, imagine that. > >I wasn't too impressed with the slab's flatness and >squareness when it arrived. well I butched the ends of mine pretty badly right off the starting line, bu I deemed the top "flat enough" (the thought of planing through all that pretty Laquer just to get through to wood just broke my heart. ;-) > If I lay an accurate >straightedge across the shorter width, I can fit a .020" >feeler blade between the straightedge and wood in the >middle throughout most of the bench. when you attached it.. where/how did you attach it to the base. >Two of the edges are >quite a bit off square -- more than 1/16" pokes out when I >check them with a combo square. This will affect the >skirts/vises I'm mounting there. I recovered from my ill conceived notion of breadboard endcaps attached via mongo sliding dovetails dovetails (Don't ask, it was not prety) what my Initial plan was to clamp a long straight-edge across the table's widlt and use it as a guide fence to run my D&W@l... C*rc#l@r... Saw along and clean it all up right quick.... unfortunately I was equipted w/ only two blades (one for cutting PT Decking, and the other for Plyw%d) both blades died an honrable death before getting more than half way through one side, and mangled it pretty well in the process. Plan B was to find someone w/ a R@d...!@l... Arm S@w... to cut it, but would't you figgure, I could not find anybidy close by w/ one that rad that much reach. I finally ended up just striking a new line and taking the Monster (36") back saw out of my Miter Box ( http://www.shavings.net/shoppics.html ) out and "just did it". I lined up the cut took a deep breath, relaxed and starting at it, in only a few minutes I was done and very surprised w/ the results being "pretty darned close". I slathered them w/ sever wash coats of shellac to seal them up and left it like that. One of these days I'll get out the L-N #62 and #164 and clean then up (and actually use those tools for what they were designed for, for a change ;-) >So I'm tuning up the #8C (with a new Hock blade with the >Guntermanized chill treatment) Nice shill. >and my new L-N #62 and well see you are already half way there. >getting ready to schwinnngg those shavings. But I'm >wondering: When will I know when to stop? Obviously it'd >be nice to get it dead flat and square, but first, this'd >take forever, aya, and blow the integrity of the finish real fast. think about the thick laquer on the bottom compared to wahtever you use to seal the top back up... unless you mathc it real well I'd fear un-even hydroscopic of the top in seasonal shifts and more (un-even) movement of the top. >and second, even when it's sealed the wood >will move with the seasons anyway yup. >Would anyone like to venture a tolerance that they'd shoot for on something like this? Well there's this guy (Kirby?) who claims +/- 0.0001" but that is just silly. I know this is subjective, but am interested in the >range of galootish opinions. I shoot for "flatter that anything I could make one it". So as you see I have a lot of leeway there ;-) ---- Start of Message 65299 (thread 28101) ---- From: RayT.Smith@m... Date: 1999-07-23 14:43:00 Subject: RE: Benchtop: How flat is flat enough? >Would anyone like to >venture a tolerance that they'd shoot for on something like >this? I know this is subjective, but am interested in the >range of galootish opinions. I'd go ahead and put everything together and give it several months to acclimate to your shop before surfacing the top. If you flatten it now, it might move the opposite direction as it settles into its new environment, and your work would be for nothing. You might want to go ahead and square the edge if you are giong to put a skirt on it, or maybe leave the skirt off until later.. You'll have to flatten it again in a year or so, most likely. And again a couple years after that. Ray T.Smith ---- Start of Message 65316 (thread 28101) ---- From: "Nance, Joe" Date: 1999-07-23 17:28:00 Subject: RE: Benchtop: How flat is flat enough? I'd go ahead and put everything together and give it several months to acclimate to your shop before surfacing the top. If you flatten it now, it might move the opposite direction as it settles into its new environment, and your work would be for nothing. Gee, I think that it might be easier to just have climate control installed in the shop. By controlling the humidity and temperature and going through the double sealed entry to avoid contamination I don't have to have the surface of my bench machined to tight tolerances more than once every two years. But seriously folks, it's just a bleepin work surface. I can't imagine how a few thousandths here or there can possibly make any significant difference. Joe Nance Oakland, CA Just another range of galootish opinion. ---- Start of Message 65394 (thread 28101) ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1999-07-25 02:27:00 Subject: Re: Benchtop: How flat is flat enough? ** Reply to note from "Frank O'Donnell" Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:23:32 -0700 (PDT) > > wondering: When will I know when to stop? Obviously it'd > be nice to get it dead flat and square, but first, this'd > take forever, and second, even when it's sealed the wood > will move with the seasons anyway (although here in greater > L.A. it never gets all _that_ humid). Would anyone like to > venture a tolerance that they'd shoot for on something like > this? I know this is subjective, but am interested in the > range of galootish opinions. Just remember, Ian Kirby gets his benchtop to within 0.001". ernie fisch tongue inserted firmly in cheek ++++ End of thread 28101 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28102 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65232 (thread 28102) ---- From: Bob Brode Date: 1999-07-22 18:35:00 Subject: FS: Larger size hollows and rounds All British, and unless otherwise noted late 19th century and cabinet pitch (55 degrees). All in very nice user condition -- in particular, tight, unmodified mouths. Pairs: Gleave/Manchester - 16 H&R, slight skew. ($45) Varvill/York - 18 H&R, 16 H&R, 14R, strong skew, all same owner. ($100) Cockbain/Carlisle, 18 H&R, 16 H&R, 14 H&R, 12 H&R, 8 H&R, not skewed, 50 degree pitch. All same owner. Particularly handsome wood. The 18R is missing its iron, but I'll supply a replacement. ($190) Singles: Griffiths/Norwich - 16H (number obscured), skewed. ($16) Bruford/Plymouth - 18R, not skewed. ($14) Cannadine/London - 18H, skewed, 1820s-1840s. ($18) - Bob Brode ++++ End of thread 28102 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28103 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65233 (thread 28103) ---- From: "George Langford, Sc.D." Date: 1999-07-22 21:47:00 Subject: Buck Brothers label covered with masking tape? Hallo affixed Galoots ! Paul Jordan asked for help unsticking masking tape from a Bucks Bros. box, and Scott Grandstaff piped up with an acetone solution that involves upending the sticky mess in a tray of acetone. Here's a more conservative approach that may accomplish the same end with less disaster potential. First, let's assume that the printed label passes the acetone rub test. If it does, then the adhesive on the masking tape might be softened by exposing it merely to the acetone fumes. I was faced with a similar problem wherein some hard-hearted vandal sprayed red paint all over an antique microscope, even inside the mechanism. I didn't dare immerse it all, nor did I care to rub for 100,000 strokes with a Q-tip. Instead, I placed the insulted parts in a ziplock bag along with a cotton ball soaked in acetone. I had previously determined that the black enamel was fairly resistant to the acetone fumes. I made sure that the liquid acetone did not come into direct contact with the parts. After about an hour, the red paint crinkled up and loosened, so I could simply lift it off with tweezers. What Paul can do to follow this lead is to place the box in a sealable polyethylene bag along with a rag soaked in acetone, but with the rag kept separated from the box. This care will prevent the acetone from soaking into the box. The vapors ought to be absorbed into the adhesive of the masking tape, and you should then be able to gently remove the tape without tearing the paper label. Try it out first on a less valuable article, of course. [Disclaimer: Amenex does not have any financial interest in Q-tips, plastic bags, cotton balls, or acetone, nor do we have any special dislike for red paint or preference for black paint, however well it is baked on, except on planes, of course.] Best regards, George Langford, hoping for the rain to start in SE PA amenex@a... ++++ End of thread 28103 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28104 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65236 (thread 28104) ---- From: SANFORD MOSS Date: 1999-07-22 19:18:00 Subject: More Peavey from Spokeshave John Gunterman asked to pass along this URL for more Cranes action http://www.shavings.net/Cranes99.html Enjoy! ++++ End of thread 28104 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28105 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65238 (thread 28105) ---- From: thomt@u... Date: 1999-07-22 20:13:00 Subject: Raleigh M-WTCA 6/24 Any Galoots going to the Raleigh NC M-WTCA meet, be sure to look me up. I'l be wearing my Galoot hat, maybe the shirt. Look for my shadow, 9 year old SHMBette and proto galoot. We're easy to tell apart, she's the short cute one.:-) Pre gloat: she ~asked~ to go with me! Thom Trail GAloot ++++ End of thread 28105 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28106 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65239 (thread 28106) ---- From: "Joseph Neustein" Date: 1999-07-22 20:32:00 Subject: Yankee #50 At Bill Spry's recent garage sale, I acquired a Yankee #50. I'm not sure what you call it--it's a one-way push drill type thing. But my question is this. What type of drill/driver bits does this take? I know I might have thought of this before I bought it, but it really is pretty. Also, what do you call this thing? Joe Neustein ---- Start of Message 65302 (thread 28106) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1999-07-23 15:05:00 Subject: Re: Yankee #50 On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:32:55 -0700 "Joseph Neustein" writes: >At Bill Spry's recent garage sale, I acquired a Yankee #50. I'm not >sure what you call it--it's a one-way push drill type thing. But my >question is this. What type of drill/driver bits does this take? > [snip] > >Also, what do you call this thing? > This link has it listed as a "reciprocating drill". Don't know nothin' bout what bits it takes. http://www.mwtca.org/otc/ar000001.htm Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 65305 (thread 28106) ---- From: "Joseph Neustein" Date: 1999-07-23 15:57:00 Subject: Re: Yankee #50 Thanks for the link. I have a feeling this has been asked and answered, but is there a list of web tool resources like the MWTCA site? Joe -----Original Message----- From: Steve Reynolds To: jneustein@e... Cc: OLDTOOLS@l... Date: Friday, July 23, 1999 8:07 AM Subject: Re: Yankee #50 > >On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:32:55 -0700 "Joseph Neustein" > writes: >>At Bill Spry's recent garage sale, I acquired a Yankee #50. I'm not >>sure what you call it--it's a one-way push drill type thing. But my >>question is this. What type of drill/driver bits does this take? >> >[snip] >> >>Also, what do you call this thing? >> > > This link has it listed as a "reciprocating drill". Don't >know nothin' bout what bits it takes. > >http://www.mwtca.org/otc/ar000001.htm > >Regards, >Steve > >-- > > ---- Start of Message 65317 (thread 28106) ---- From: "Jerry Serviss" Date: 1999-07-23 18:25:00 Subject: Re: Yankee #50 On 22 Jul 99, , Joseph Neustein wrote: > At Bill Spry's recent garage sale, I acquired a Yankee #50. I'm not sure > what you call it--it's a one-way push drill type thing. But my question > is this. What type of drill/driver bits does this take? The Yankee #50 is a cool tool. My 1923 Yankee catalog calls it a reciprocating drill. I am not sure why you say its a one way tool. The action is two way like some of the Yankee egg beater drills. This tool is about 16 inches long. It has a three jaw chuck that holds regular drill bits, up to 1/4 inch diameter. It also has a pad that is similar in size and shape to that on most braces. In between the chuck and the pad is a shaft that has a double spiral cut groove and a moving handle shaped like a ball. As the handle is moved up and down the shaft the drill chuck turns clockwise, advancing the drill bit ~3.5 revolutions on each full end to end movement. Thus a user who pushes the handle down the shaft and then pulls it back would advance the drill bit ~7 revolutions. Hope that this helps. ---- Start of Message 65353 (thread 28106) ---- From: "Joseph Neustein" Date: 1999-07-24 01:06:00 Subject: Re: Yankee #50 That helped. I went into the garage and drilled a few holes using regular twist bits. It required tightening the chuck with a wrench, and still it had a tendency for the bit to jam in the wood and spin in the chuck. I found that if I used hardly any pressure, it worked pretty well. I've never used the standard push drills, but compared to the spiral drivers, this is a pretty finicky tool. It is gorgeous, though. Is there something I am obviously doing wrong? Is there a better type of drill bit to use? Thanks for the help. Is this a practical tool, or is it just cool? . Joe ---Original Message----- From: Jerry Serviss To: Joseph Neustein ; OLDTOOLS@l... Date: Friday, July 23, 1999 10:33 AM Subject: Re: Yankee #50 On 22 Jul 99, , Joseph Neustein wrote: > At Bill Spry's recent garage sale, I acquired a Yankee #50. I'm not sure > what you call it--it's a one-way push drill type thing. But my question > is this. What type of drill/driver bits does this take? The Yankee #50 is a cool tool. My 1923 Yankee catalog calls it a reciprocating drill. I am not sure why you say its a one way tool. The action is two way like some of the Yankee egg beater drills. This tool is about 16 inches long. It has a three jaw chuck that holds regular drill bits, up to 1/4 inch diameter. It also has a pad that is similar in size and shape to that on most braces. In between the chuck and the pad is a shaft that has a double spiral cut groove and a moving handle shaped like a ball. As the handle is moved up and down the shaft the drill chuck turns clockwise, advancing the drill bit ~3.5 revolutions on each full end to end movement. Thus a user who pushes the handle down the shaft and then pulls it back would advance the drill bit ~7 revolutions. Hope that this helps. ---- Start of Message 65356 (thread 28106) ---- From: Eric Schneidmiller Date: 1999-07-24 02:15:00 Subject: Re: Yankee #50 >That helped. I went into the garage and drilled a few holes using regular >twist bits. It required tightening the chuck with a wrench, and still it >had a tendency for the bit to jam in the wood and spin in the chuck. I >found that if I used hardly any pressure, it worked pretty well. ... >Is there something I am obviously doing wrong? I've never had much trouble with my #50, although you have to make sure you keep the axis of the drill in line with the hole. This is a little difficult until you get used to pushing the shuttle back and forth while holding the pad in the other hand still. The exact same chuck is used on the eggbeater drills that North Brothers made, which I use with twist drills all the time. So you should be able to use twist drills with the #50. (You've found the lock mechanism on the shuttle, right? That's what allows you to keep the shaft from turning while you get the chuck tight.) Here's my suggestion. You might consider taking the chuck apart and cleaning up the insides a bit. The chucks on several of my NB drills were gummed up or rusted enough to be sticky when I got them, but they worked fine after cleaning. The chuck has several precision machined parts inside. BEWARE of the three small springs! They don't make a leap-for-freedom or anything like that, but they are very small and easy to lose... and unless you make your own replacements, it is real hard finding new springs in this half of the century. When you get the chuck apart, soak all the parts in some suitable solvent to loosen any residual grease. Then polish the sides of the three jaws with 600 grit wet/dry. Don't remove much metal, just go for a quick polish to remove any surface corrosion. I've found it also helps to use a very fine file (or better yet, a thin stick with some wet/dry wrapped around it) to smooth out the slots that the jaws ride in. Be careful with this. You DON'T want to change the dimension of the slot, just remove any surface rust and dried dirt/grease. Also use the wet/dry paper on the inside of the chuck barrel so that the jaws will have a smooth surface to ride against. Once you get it all polished up it should work better. >Is there a better type of drill bit to use? Personal opinion here, but I find that the North Brother's model 1530a is much easier to use and more versatile. OK, it's not as cool looking, but I think it's the best small drill made. Regards, Eric ---- Start of Message 65387 (thread 28106) ---- From: "Joseph Neustein" Date: 1999-07-24 21:19:00 Subject: Re: Yankee #50 Well, I took it apart, cleaned it, and after a bit of trial and error, got it back together (I'm not very experienced at these mechanical things). It's nice to know the gunk is gone. And, I think it works a tiny bit better; it certainly chucks easier. Thanks for the tip about the shuttle lock. That might have been the biggest help. Also the warning about the tiny springs kept my searching-for-flying-springs time down to a minimum. Now that the #50 is good to go, I am looking forward to checking out the 1530a. Thanks. Joe From: Eric Schneidmiller To: oldtools@l... Date: Friday, July 23, 1999 7:31 PM Subject: Re: Yankee #50 >>That helped. I went into the garage and drilled a few holes using regular >>twist bits. It required tightening the chuck with a wrench, and still it >>had a tendency for the bit to jam in the wood and spin in the chuck. I >>found that if I used hardly any pressure, it worked pretty well. > >... > >>Is there something I am obviously doing wrong? > >I've never had much trouble with my #50, although you have to make sure you >keep the axis of the drill in line with the hole. This is a little >difficult until you get used to pushing the shuttle back and forth while >holding the pad in the other hand still. The exact same chuck is used on >the eggbeater drills that North Brothers made, which I use with twist >drills all the time. So you should be able to use twist drills with the >#50. (You've found the lock mechanism on the shuttle, right? That's what >allows you to keep the shaft from turning while you get the chuck tight.) > >Here's my suggestion. You might consider taking the chuck apart and >cleaning up the insides a bit. The chucks on several of my NB drills were >gummed up or rusted enough to be sticky when I got them, but they worked >fine after cleaning. The chuck has several precision machined parts >inside. BEWARE of the three small springs! They don't make a >leap-for-freedom or anything like that, but they are very small and easy to >lose... and unless you make your own replacements, it is real hard finding >new springs in this half of the century. > >When you get the chuck apart, soak all the parts in some suitable solvent >to loosen any residual grease. Then polish the sides of the three jaws >with 600 grit wet/dry. Don't remove much metal, just go for a quick polish >to remove any surface corrosion. I've found it also helps to use a very >fine file (or better yet, a thin stick with some wet/dry wrapped around it) >to smooth out the slots that the jaws ride in. Be careful with this. You >DON'T want to change the dimension of the slot, just remove any surface >rust and dried dirt/grease. Also use the wet/dry paper on the inside of >the chuck barrel so that the jaws will have a smooth surface to ride >against. Once you get it all polished up it should work better. > >>Is there a better type of drill bit to use? > >Personal opinion here, but I find that the North Brother's model 1530a is >much easier to use and more versatile. OK, it's not as cool looking, but I >think it's the best small drill made. > > >Regards, > >Eric > >-- > > ++++ End of thread 28106 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28107 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65242 (thread 28107) ---- From: tom thornton Date: 1999-07-22 21:28:00 Subject: Scrapers made of glass I'm surprised more don't answer up on this. When I was a kid my dad got a used cedar chest from the Goodwill Shop, and a small box of glass squares ( about 2 x 3 inches) from the hardware store and some heavy gloves and gently removed all the old varnish. ( about 1937-38) I can remember him sitting on it and scraping away, the varnish seemed to roll off similar to what we discuss on taking a fine shaving. . No dust no fuss. ++++ End of thread 28107 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28108 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65243 (thread 28108) ---- From: Tom Walley Date: 1999-07-22 19:59:00 Subject: #95, #98, and #99 Info Request GGs, In the interest of acquiring another new-old tool, I've been looking Lie-Nielsen #98 & 99 side rabbet plane set ($185 for the set) and the Lie-Nielsen #95 edge trimming block plane ($235 for a left and right hand set). So my question is, is the #95 more generally useful than the #98 & 99? Could it be used in place of the #98 & 99 for trimming the sides of a rabbet? Any and all experience on this would be greatly appreciated. By the way, did the original #95 come in a left-handed and right-handed version? Thanks, Tom Walley ---- Start of Message 65276 (thread 28108) ---- From: "Bob Key" Date: 1999-07-23 12:25:00 Subject: Re: #95, #98, and #99 Info Request Tom asks: > So my question is, is the #95 more generally useful than > the #98 & 99? Could it be used in place of the #98 & 99 for trimming > the sides of a rabbet? The 98/99 excels at enlarging or cleaning up a groove or dado. It can also be used to make a sliding dovetail housing from a groove or dado. These operations are really easy with this tool. But this sort of work would be difficult for the 95, which is designed to square an edge to a face. I suppose it could be done, but it would be unwieldy - sort of like using a steak knife for a screwdriver. I find that I use the 98/99 much more than the 95. I had developed the skill to square an edge to the face with a jointer before I purchased my 95, so I use it very rarely. Mostly I use it on end- grain to clean up the hash I sometimes make of crosscutting with a handsaw. It works reasonably well for this task. -Bob Key. ---- Start of Message 65279 (thread 28108) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 1999-07-24 12:42:00 Subject: Re: #95, #98, and #99 Info Request Tom asks: >> So my question is, is the #95 more generally useful than >> the #98 & 99? Could it be used in place of the #98 & 99 for >trimming >> the sides of a rabbet? Lots of good advise about 95/98/99. To throw in two more bits (especially about the 98/99). Another option here is a #79. (If you've not used one, sort of like a 98 and a 99 stuck back to back.) Not as convienent as a separate 98/99; but --to my mind-- it works just as well and secondly, it's a *whole* lot less money than a 98/99 pair (in point of fact, I got mine for less than I've seen either a single 98 or 99). N ---- Start of Message 65307 (thread 28108) ---- From: georgew@m... Date: 1999-07-23 16:24:00 Subject: Re: #95, #98, and #99 Info Request >Tom asks: >>> So my question is, is the #95 more generally useful than >>> the #98 & 99? Could it be used in place of the #98 & 99 for >>trimming >>> the sides of a rabbet? >Lots of good advise about 95/98/99. Nicheal answered: >To throw in two more bits (especially about the 98/99). Another option >here is a #79. (If you've not used one, sort of like a 98 and a 99 stuck >back to back.) I personaly use the Sargent version, criss-crossed blades rather like the Preston. Works like a champ, much cheaper than the 98/99 pair and doesn't have the "dragging rear blade" problem of the 79. With that said, I find that I use my 95 (LN Blade) a lot more. I find the skew blade very useful for squaring and edge trimming small pieces. George ---- Start of Message 65343 (thread 28108) ---- From: "Ted Evans" Date: 1999-07-23 21:41:00 Subject: RE: #95, #98, and #99 Info Request Tom, I have both sets, the 95s & the 98 & 99. The 95s are used a lot. From opening dados to squaring stock to trimming endgrain. Would hate to do with out them. I use the 98 & 99 occasionally but think they would be much better if they were larger. Perhaps 150 to 200%. They work very well for me on very small items but not so well on some of the things I would like to use them on. My wife still wants to put them on the coffee table. JMO Ted > In the interest of acquiring another new-old tool, I've been looking > Lie-Nielsen #98 & 99 side rabbet plane set ($185 for the set) and the > Lie-Nielsen #95 edge trimming block plane ($235 for a ---- Start of Message 65424 (thread 28108) ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1999-07-26 03:36:00 Subject: Re: #95, #98, and #99 Info Request ** Reply to note from Tom Walley Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:59:19 MDT I have an AMT version of the #95. It is actually not badly done and works reasonably well but doesn't get used much. For widening grooves and dados I prefer the little Preston side rabbet with the crossed blades. Very neat and handy. For rabbets and tenons and such I use the shoulder plane, originally the Stanley #93 and now the L-N 073. Makes short work of the job. I have the #98 and #99 and have used them although I prefer the Preston. If I didn't have the Preston it would be the #98 and #99 for groove and dado work. ernie fisch ++++ End of thread 28108 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28109 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65244 (thread 28109) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-07-22 22:10:00 Subject: Somedays the Bear get You! Galoots, A while ago I posted on how I "Got the Bear" with a stumbled into, blin d dumb luck find of machinist tools I thought I'd never see. Well, today the Washington Post (that's in Washington DC Jeff) had a ad in "collectibles" that read, "antique tools in a tool chest, $2500 OBO" (Or Best Offer Jeff). I called late for the usual cruel DC crowd - 9:01AM. I'm the first cal ler and schedule a time to come to her house to inspect. Seems her husband died and was, as she put it, "a life long cabinet maker" who had his tools and his fathers tools in the chest. I knew the area she live in. Great tool hunting area - early on a work ing class neighborhood and now a richey, $500,000 home area. I also asked the proper questions and being smarter than the average bloat (common sort Jeff) , I knew from an Obituary in the Washington Post that she had to be the wife of a Scottish cabinet maker who died last year - yes, I read obituaries and call the widow for tools! One of my questions was, "Was your husband from Scotland?" She answer ed "Great Britain". Close enough - this was the place. Antsy, I waited all day, knowing some Cretan will get there first. I arrive, she opens the garage and I see a chest. Well not so large, b ut it is a carpenters tool chest. She tells me I'm the first since the ad in the paper to see it. I open the chest - nearly empty! Toatlly soft wood inside- nothing fancy. There were some saws with only one with,a Butcher medallion,being interesting. She says that a small cardboard box next to the tool chest has the rest of the tools. Then she says, "John Hechinger was here a month or so ago and said it w as worth $2500!" Those who aren't attuned to the ruinations by the Home Despot chain of hardware stores should know that Hechinger's is an east coast chain of stores akin to Home Despot. Only Hechingers in in Bankruptcy. But John Hechinger is world famous for his "Tools as Art" - or welded, painted or otherwise made useless as a tool. So, with John hanging over my head, I survey the content of the garage. I turn and suggest that she let John buy them for $2500. She says that he said that there was nothing there that he wanted! I suggest she call him and tell him to come pick them all up for $1250. She's hip and wonders what they are worth. I refuse to say - would be too embarrassing for her. I figure that the lot is worth maybe $100, but that could be generous. She asks if I would leave an offer and I say no. But I told her if no one else took them to call me. I drove my car in rush hour traffic in the DC area ( second worst commu te in the US) about 5 miles, taking 45 minutes each way, for John Hechinger's price clearly spoken to make her feel wonderful! Clearly the Bear got me!! I just hope she wasn't counting on the $$. *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * *********************************************** ++++ End of thread 28109 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28110 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65245 (thread 28110) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 1999-07-23 22:42:00 Subject: Kevlar Gloves [was: Scrapers made of glass] tom thornton wrote: [...] > When I was a kid my dad got a used cedar chest from the Goodwill Shop, >and a small box of glass squares ( about 2 x 3 inches) from the hardware >store and some heavy gloves and gently removed all the old varnish. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Speaking of which, one of glossy tool catlogues (I think it was Lee Valley) offers Kevlar gloves. Seems like a cool idea for the right job. N --- Nichael Cramer nichael@s... nulla dies sine linea http://www.sover.net/~nichael/ ---- Start of Message 65256 (thread 28110) ---- From: Tad Date: 1999-07-23 01:53:00 Subject: Re: Kevlar Gloves [was: Scrapers made of glass] Nichael Cramer wrote: >tom thornton wrote: [...] [snip] >>store and some heavy gloves and gently removed all the old varnish. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Speaking of which, one of glossy tool catlogues (I think it was Lee Valley) >offers Kevlar gloves. During college, I had a job in a glass tempering plant. We all wore kevlar bib overalls, shoulder guards, gauntlets, etc. and they worked admirably. Other than the fact that they were _hot as hell_ to wear. (Aside: The bibs had a replacable multi-thickness flap to protect your waist. They had to be replacable because the glass would wear holes in the kevlar at an alarming rate) For gloves, however, we wore a thin pair of cotton work gloves covered with a rubberised cotton outer glove. The rubber was _soft_ much softer than a pencil eraser which meant that they were sorta comfortable, very flexible, but ungodly tough. They'd hold up to pass after pass along the snapped edge of raw glass. Best of all, they stick to glass like glue, which would make them very handy for holding glass scrapers. They can't have been too pricy because we'd wear holes in them every couple of hours or so (5 gloves per shift per person = lotta gloves in the trash). Incidentally, that's why we wore the undergloves, they would give you just enough warning that the main glove had been breached to keep from laying your finger wide open. At least most of the time they did... At any rate, I think kevlar gloves would be a little slick to accurately use with a glass scraper, but I've been wrong before... I wish that I had more information, maker, etc. But... It's been a few years... Tad Anhalt Des Moines, Ia Yeah, that job taught me that college wasn't quite as hard as I'd originally thought ;) ---- Start of Message 65273 (thread 28110) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 1999-07-24 11:49:00 Subject: Re: Kevlar Gloves [was: Scrapers made of glass] Tad wrote: [...] > At any rate, I think kevlar gloves would be a little slick to accurately >use with a glass scraper, but I've been wrong before... Also, as I probably should have made clearer in my original note, the catalogue was selling them for use by wood-carvers, which may make the "slickness" less of an issue. N ---- Start of Message 65393 (thread 28110) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-07-25 02:02:00 Subject: Re: Kevlar Gloves [was: Scrapers made of glass] > At any rate, I think kevlar gloves would be a little slick to >accurately >use with a glass scraper, but I've been wrong before... > > I wish that I had more information, maker, etc. But... It's been a The ones I have seen have numerous little dots of rubber bonded to them to provide a better grip. ++++ End of thread 28110 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28111 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65246 (thread 28111) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 1999-07-23 22:50:00 Subject: Yet Another NoName Plane ID Request I recently came across (and picked up for a song) what was clearly meant to be an old knock-off of a Stanley #40. The *only* identifying mark on the whole thing is a block letter "A", about 1/4in tall on the iron (about where you'd normally expect the maker's mark to be --don't think it's an owner's tag; it looks to well-placed and "permanent"). Does this ring any bells? Any guess what it might be? Thanks Nichael ++++ End of thread 28111 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28112 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65247 (thread 28112) ---- From: "TODD HUGHES" Date: 1999-07-22 23:22:00 Subject: Sometimes you sort of get the bear Reading Karl's sad tale of over priced tools and D.C. traffic made me think of my experance last year with an add in the paper for three tool boxes full of carriage making tools, $1000 or best offer.Called the lady who sounds like she just came out of the hills of west viginie, tells me her grandfather was a Quaker carriage maker, she didn't know what was in them only that they were big and full.Got directions and I arrive at the house in the surburbs of wilmington del. that is being remodled.Go out to the shed in the backyard and there they are, three nice tool boxes, Big, medium, and a cute small guy,anticipation builds and I open them up....Rusted junk!,mostly car parts, rusted wrenchs, screwdrivers...I look though everything and sure isn't anything that looks like a carriage makers tool.I explain that the boxes are ok but the junk in them is junk and thanks but I will pass.She says make an offer, I said well I don't want the tools,she says well we can thow them in the dumpster,[a minute ago they were worth a $1000],so I figured what the heck...how about $100.."sure I get my boy to help you put them in the truck"...Dang bet she would of sold them for 50. Then she told me she tossed out all the junk in the dumpster, I light up and ask if allright to climb in and look.Amazing there were three full boxes of vintage tobacco and coffey cans from the 20's of nuts and bolts, a speedometer for a model A in the box, and a original box of spoke shave blades! Well I get everthing home and the only thing found in the tool boxes of any good was 1 trammel point, but I sold all the Tins and more then paid for the tool boxes, and traded the speedo for a stanley no.8..so I guess the morale is always check the trash...Todd.... ++++ End of thread 28112 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28113 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65250 (thread 28113) ---- From: "John L. Odom" Date: 1999-07-23 00:44:00 Subject: Re:Misc. Fellow Galoots: My last couple of posts disapeared into cyberspace so I'll repost in much abreviated form. I guess it takes a couple of days without the list to really appreciate how adicted we are. Recently returned from a family reunion in western MN. We turned off I80 and stopped in Kimbalton IA to see the little mermaid statue (SWMBO is 100% Danish and it was her familily reunion.) and I noticed several antique stores. I went into the least prosperous looking and found several piles of tools on the floor, unpriced. I picked out: (1)A small(10") backsaw with a ??P-A-WAY etching. There is more etching there but I can't make it out yet. Closed Handle. Nice and sharp. (2) Two saw vises. (3) Five large (12") files, one with a nice handle. (4) A nice 6" no name crank grinder. (5) Two pair of blacksmith tongs. (6) Two large farrier's rasps. Got the lot for $40, not a gloat but O.K. While at the MN-SD SD border I got (free) a nice piece of granite, 18" X 24" X 2". It seems very flat, as near as I can tell with my best 24" straight-edge. It was a reject be cause of irregular grain pattern. I'll use it as a make-shift surface plate. I got the material for my bench top, Ripped to size and jointed under power at the pattern shop owned by a friend. Glued up today, now the work begins. I have used glass scrapers many times. That is the usual way Nara, a contrary Philippine wood, is (or at least was 50 years ago) worked over there. John Odom, in Hot, Humid, and Hazy Ooltewah, TN _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ++++ End of thread 28113 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28114 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65252 (thread 28114) ---- From: Paul Bethke Date: 1999-07-23 01:35:00 Subject: rescued saw Gentle ones, While wondering around the local flea market looking for rust, I spotted a saw laying in a pile of old screw drivers, wrenches, bits of elecrical equipment, miscellaneous hammers, worn out files etc. Note that it was in the pile, flat on its side. Not carefully place near the other junk, but buried in it. I excavated the site and pulled it free. Looked pretty good except for the fresh scratches on the saw nuts, the fresh dings on the handle and the slightly bent blade (fresh?) so I says 'how much' and the guy goes to ask the women back in the truck. Four bucks poorer I take it home and elecrozap the blade. I use the 600 grit SC paper trick to reveal what's left of the etching. The finish is 95% gone from the handle, so I cleaned it with mineral spirits and #0000 steel wool, followed by mineral spirits on a clean cloth. Put on a coat of wax and hated how it looked. Stripped that off with mineral spirits. Put on a coat of linseed oil thinned with mineral spirits and loved how it looked. Beautiful, rich luster, and not blotchy like the wax. The oil was dry to the touch in a few hours so I put it back together and grinned to have such a beautiful saw. Its a 28 inch, nibbed, Disston D7, with sunken medallion containing the 1887 patent date. That makes it about 110 years old. To think that it could have been trash if it had been carried around by the sellers for a couple of more weeks. The saw is stamped 6, making it likely that it was a 6 point crosscut when made, even though it is an 8 point crosscut now. As I already have two 8 point crosscuts, I'm thinking of retoothing this one to a 6 point rip. I already have 4 and a 4 1/2 point rips so this would seem the next most useful size. (Where did all these saws come from?) Anyone out there think this is a bad (or good) idea? Thanks for listening, Paul ---- Start of Message 65552 (thread 28114) ---- From: Dorian Reeder Date: 1999-07-27 14:37:00 Subject: RE: rescued saw Paul Bethke wrote: > I use the 600 grit SC paper trick to reveal what's left of the > etching... Okay, I'll be the one to show my newbie ignorance. What is (or where can I find a reference to) the "600 grit SC paper trick"? ---- Start of Message 65558 (thread 28114) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-07-27 15:55:00 Subject: RE: rescued saw At 9:37 AM -0500 7/27/99, Dorian Reeder wrote: >What is >(or where can I find a reference to) the "600 grit SC paper >trick"? 1) Get the saw blade as clean as you can with non-abrasive methods, like rubbing down with mineral spirits and a rag. 2) Identify the area where you *might* be able to recover an etched logo, usually about the middle of the left side of the blade. 3) wrap the abovementioned fine grit paper on a fairly firm sanding block. A hard wood block often has irregularities that cause the paper to ride on high spots, so I've taken to using a block of stiff styrofoam (like your computer was packed in), or a cork surface. You could start with 400 grit, I think, but not much coarser. 4) rub saw blade with paper on stiff backing, front to back (and forth) along the blade. Check progress frequently in reflected light. If there's an etching to recover, it should begin to appear as the higher surface gets cleaned/shiny, and teeny bits of grit get caught in the lower (etched) surfaces. Don't overdo it, because soon you will have polished everthing to the same plane, thus obliterating any logo for good. Don't use steel wool or sandpaper on your fingertips, as a flexible abrasive surface will dub (round over) the minute shoulders of the etched design, rendering it unreadable even if the two depth planes are still there on the surface. Tom Holloway, impressed by how many *former* cowboys there are here, among which I count myself. ++++ End of thread 28114 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28115 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65253 (thread 28115) ---- From: John Gunterman Date: 1999-07-22 20:38:00 Subject: WTB/T Mortice guages Howdy folks, I need several _-user-grade-_ mortise gauges visual condition unimportant as long as they are functional. Willing to trade Iron or buy. ++++ End of thread 28115 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28116 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65255 (thread 28116) ---- From: Steve Jones Date: 1999-07-23 00:39:00 Subject: Followup: Berea GGs; I think this fell into the bit bucket the first time.... Came back a day early after only about three hours in Berea. The Boone Tavern Hotel's air conditioner was MIA, all the woodworkers were closed (Sunday) and SWMBO and I just got tired of looking at badly made furniture and "crafts". We'll go back on a Friday-Saturday jaunt some time. We stopped at a flea market near Somerset KY. Lots of wire-brushed saws, some braces, lots of one- and two-man lumbering saws, and a nice wooden leg vise that I'm kicking myself for not buying. The price started at $75 and was falling through $65 when I decided to pass. The trip wasn't a total loss though. While in Berea, we came across a shop that mentioned Rude Osolnik on the sign. Naturally we stopped. I fondled a dozen of his bowls (spalted maple, redwood burl, kingwood, mahogany, etc.), most with walls maybe 3/16" thick from rim to base. Yeah, he kills electrons, but what an artist. To say that he's a wood turner is to say that Michaelangelo made pictures. Got an autographed copy of his book too. But no bowls. :-( Steve Jones Kokomo IN ++++ End of thread 28116 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28117 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65260 (thread 28117) ---- From: "Bill Taggart" Date: 1999-07-23 02:03:00 Subject: UPS damages Wes Groot wrote: > Is it the general consensus of the porch that UPS is the more >dangerous of the two options? Or is it just the popular topic today? Yes, IMO - UPS makes no secret about the fact that their package handling is, shall we say, vigorous. You really have to pack stuff to withstand a direct nuclear hit if you want it to get where it's going in one piece with UPS. They use a lot of mechanical handling equipment, and handle too many packages to really care too much about any one box, no matter how many "This side up" and "Fragile-Handle With Care" labels you put on it. Packing properly is somewhat of an art form - I usually go for a very rigid and hard outer layer, with several inner layers of various kinds of cushioning to absorb shocks. Everything must be snug so that their is no motion within the package. In a previous job I used to ship tons of equipment at a clip - we used mainly FedEx, believe it or not, which was expensive, but the Gubment (Uncle Sam, Jeff) was paying for it, so what the heck right? (Sarcastic grin). I've had pretty good luck with FedEx, but not as good with UPS. I've not had any problems with USPS, but as I mentioned, when I package something, I usually try to err on the side of overkill. (And SWMBO always complains about how long it takes me to get the durn thing packaged). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) On the road in Livonia, MI ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 65272 (thread 28117) ---- From: Stan Faullin Date: 1999-07-23 11:35:00 Subject: re: UPS Damages >From: Paul Pedersen wrote: >I would suggest that anything heavy being shipped by UPS be contained >in a box of very thick cardboard, that all corners be protected with >plastic 'angle irons' and the whole thing be strapped with metal >strapping. I had a retoother shipped this way by UPS and it came >through without damage. I've also thought that shooting the whole >inside of the package with urethane foam to fill all the voids once >the item (wrapped) is in the box would help it survive the drop >down the concrete stairs (or out of the 747). For anything heavy, valuable or fragile, the double box method usually works best. Basically, you pack the thing normally in one box, then you put it in another box about 1-2" larger on each side. Fill the area between the boxes with your packing material of choice: bubble wrap, peanuts, newspaper, wood shavings, etc. (Wood shavings would be a nice touch for a tool!) Another suggestion: peanuts generally don't work real well with big heavy items. The peanuts can shift. Use newspaper and/or bubble wrap. Stan Stan Faullin faullin@c... Visit my Old Tool Webpage at http://www.tooltrip.com ---- Start of Message 65280 (thread 28117) ---- From: SSalbWW@a... Date: 1999-07-23 12:43:00 Subject: Re: UPS damages I sent a heavy cherry-framed mirror to a friend in Atlanta via FedEx. I had packed it only so-so. When it arrived, one of the mitred corners had busted (but clean) and the mirror was fine. My friend was afraid to tell me, so I put in the insurance claim AFTER 15 days, and FedEx denied it because I was too late. Turns out the repair at a frame shop I had recommended (used ta live down there) cost her $5.00, so turned out all right, but one for the lesson books. -Shannon ---- Start of Message 65296 (thread 28117) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-07-23 14:36:00 Subject: re: UPS Damages At 6:35 AM -0500 7/23/99, Stan Faullin wrote: >Another suggestion: peanuts generally don't work real well with big heavy >items. The peanuts can shift. Use newspaper and/or bubble wrap. If you have any original shipping boxes for computers and such (no, no computer geeks around here, no sir), you probably have the large chunks of styrofoam still in the box. The blocks can be cut with a sharp, thin-bladed chef's knife with minimal crumbling, to make custom fitted corner pads for heavy items, filling in spaces with smaller chunks and/or shavings. Tom Holloway ++++ End of thread 28117 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28118 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65264 (thread 28118) ---- From: JLMOORE@a... Date: 1999-07-23 03:47:00 Subject: Electrolysis of a 112 Hi Galoots, I was lucky enough to score a 112 on Monday on the way home from a good family weekend of camping and trout fishing. Browsing through an anteek maul in the Missouri Ozarks, I spotted it in a bucket of junk with a price tag of $5.00. The low front knob is in pretty good shape, but it is missing the tote and scaper which I can remedy easy enough. It is pretty rusted however and I have a question about electrozapping it with the front brass nut in place. I have done a few planes in the past with great results, but If I remember correctly it is not recommended for brass parts. By soaking it overnight in mineral spirits, I was able to free up the hinged thingy that holds the scraper, but its still awfully stiff. What is this part called BTW, its not a frog is it? I then dug a broken chunk of a needle file out of the mechanism. I can remove all the brass except for the inner nut, between the hinged thingy and the post that the threaded rod passes through. I noticed a pin through the threaded rod and tryed to gently tap it out but no luck. Can I wrap the nut in electrical tape to give it any protection? Would it make any difference to just zap it for very short periods? Should I keep trying to tap out the pin, or will I just end up breaking some cast iron. Is it just better to skip electrolysis this time around? So many questions, so little experience. John Moore ---- Start of Message 65281 (thread 28118) ---- From: tom thornton Date: 1999-07-23 10:41:00 Subject: Re: Electrolysis of a 112 I think zap damage would depend on what your using for the soltuion. I use only washing sode & stainless steel anode and have not noticed any damage to brass parts. Tom Thornton Cincinnati #3, F&AM , Morristown, N.J., USA Collector of old tools, specializing in hand cranked grindstones ---- Start of Message 65430 (thread 28118) ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1999-07-23 09:11:00 Subject: Re: Electrolysis of a 112 John Moore asked about how *not* to zap brass.. edited severely - just like the good old days... > great results, but If I remember correctly it is not recommended for brass > parts. > I can remove all the brass except for the > inner nut, > Can I wrap the nut in electrical tape to give it any protection? Would it > make any difference to just zap it for very short periods? Should I keep zapping is zapping - time in the tank is cumulative. Not that I know much abou t it, but my dim understanding is that the zinc content of the brass will be leached out by the electrolysis. To stop it, rather than tape, which will never give a perfect seal, use a thick and careful coat of grease, applied with a pointy brush so it covers the brass and not the iron. Remember around the thread too. Richard Wilson back in Worcestershire, ++++ End of thread 28118 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28119 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65265 (thread 28119) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-23 12:42:00 Subject: you got to be kidding. check this out http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=132553049 Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ---- Start of Message 65282 (thread 28119) ---- From: SSalbWW@a... Date: 1999-07-23 12:44:00 Subject: Re: you got to be kidding. check this out And not even a photo! -S. ---- Start of Message 65285 (thread 28119) ---- From: Kenneth Stagg Date: 1999-07-23 13:16:00 Subject: Re: you got to be kidding. check this out SSalbWW@a... wrote: > > And not even a photo! Yeah. You never know though, it might actually be worth it (doubtful, but possible.) -Ken ---- Start of Message 65289 (thread 28119) ---- From: Your Name Date: 1999-07-23 14:38:00 Subject: Re: you got to be kidding. check this out Ken is right, he could also have forgotten a decimal point. In any case the market will decide. Kenneth Stagg wrote: > SSalbWW@a... wrote: > > > > And not even a photo! > > Yeah. You never know though, it might actually be worth it (doubtful, but > possible.) > > -Ken > > -- ++++ End of thread 28119 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28120 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65268 (thread 28120) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-07-23 12:42:00 Subject: japanese planes I ran into a guy at a neat woodworking demo we have round here (great show - everything from pole lathes to violin makers...) Anyway, the guy was gibbering about this japanese plane he'd used once. Thin shavings, sharp blade, never seen anything like it, yada yada. So I asked him how long the owner had taken to fettle/hone/flatten polish/sharpen the blade. And how much the thing had cost. The answer (in resources, which ever way you count 'em) was really high. (and probably not surprising to gentle galloots). I then asked him if he'd EVER put this much commitment into a Western plane (i.e. paid the moulah for a Norris, Spiers, or really honed up a primo Sorby/Mathieson/Ward&Payne bladed woodie). The answer was (of course) a resounding "no". So how the HELL could he compare the two? Comparing a 8000("gold") waterstone sharpened Japanese blade to a "Norton India fine" honed modern Stanley gives a fairly predictable answer. If you're looking for like Vs like in Western Vs Japanese, I guess you gotta compare a minty Clark & Williams against a new Japanese. And I don't know which way that one would go. BugBear. ---- Start of Message 65306 (thread 28120) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-23 23:03:00 Subject: Re: japanese planes On Fri, 23 Jul 99 09:56:22 BST, you wrote: >Comparing a 8000("gold") waterstone sharpened Japanese blade to >a "Norton India fine" honed modern Stanley gives a fairly >predictable answer. > >If you're looking for like Vs like in Western Vs Japanese, I guess you >gotta compare a minty Clark & Williams against a new Japanese. The good part is you can still get the high quality irons and other japanese tools. Well till the blacksmiths die anyway. Some of my new japanese tools are better then the old ones I have. and they are about the same quality range. at least the chisels are. You want great performance you is gonna have to pay for it. I have a 75.00 japanese plane iron. it is better then my old ones. But still I only have a "gold" stone. I want to make it the best it can be. I have goofed up the plane body I had for it. So I am working on making one. I think I got it but have to finish and see. My planes I make with hock irons can du birdseye maple so I am getting there. Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ++++ End of thread 28120 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28121 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65270 (thread 28121) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-07-23 09:47:00 Subject: Price of Stanley furring planes at auction Absolutely insane! Around US$2000 for a reasonable sample. Does anybody know why? Are they THAT rare? Is this just an example of "collectomania" gone crazy? Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@n... http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den ---- Start of Message 65287 (thread 28121) ---- From: Your Name Date: 1999-07-23 14:22:00 Subject: Re: Price of Stanley furring planes at auction They really are that rare. There are however few buyers for them. They are much less common than a number 1, less useful and not nearly as cute. I'd say this was a case of 2 advanced collectors at the same auction trying to add a nice and rare npiece to their collection. Nuno Souto wrote: > Absolutely insane! Around US$2000 for > a reasonable sample. > > Does anybody know why? Are they THAT rare? > Is this just an example of "collectomania" gone > crazy? > > Cheers > Nuno Souto > nsouto@n... > http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den > > -- ---- Start of Message 65293 (thread 28121) ---- From: MisterMatt@a... Date: 1999-07-23 14:03:00 Subject: Re: Price of Stanley furring planes at auction Gentle Ones and Nuno, nsouto@n... writes: > Does anybody know why? Are they THAT rare? Is this just an example of "collectomania" gone crazy? Yes, yes and not really. The 340 (furring plane, Jeff) was made from 1905 to 1917 (according to Walter's) and when you think about it's function - taking off dirt and crap from rough timbers (sort of a pre-scrub) - it's unlikely that Stanley sold very many. Also, because of it's function, chances for nice clean examples are even fewer. Walter's (old guide) shows prices of $1200-1800, but $1500-2500 for Type on, which had "Pat. appl'd for" on the cutter. So, while it is a high price, relative to a rusty maroon #5 in a garage sale, it's not a crazy-silly price. That's all I had. Matt Glass - NYCity Galoot ---- Start of Message 65297 (thread 28121) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-07-23 14:26:00 Subject: Re: Price of Stanley furring planes at auction Sorry for the snip, but this brings me to my next curio question to the audience. Is there any info available as to how many of each plane Stanley would have made? I don't mean for ALL of them, but things like the Bedrocks, the #4,#5,#8. I understand the furring plane probably having been sold in the hundreds, but roughly how many thousands of the above would have been made/sold? ( I still think that those fellas at Crane's burning the transitionals is just a vain attempt at raising their value!!! ) Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@n... http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Saturday, 24 July 1999 00:03 Subject: Re: Price of Stanley furring planes at auction > it's unlikely that Stanley sold > very many. ++++ End of thread 28121 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28122 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65277 (thread 28122) ---- From: SSalbWW@a... Date: 1999-07-23 12:34:00 Subject: WTB small grinder wheel Hi, folks. I bought one a them hand-crank grinders but it is missing its grinding wheel. I *know* I had one but for the life of me I can't find it!!! Grr. So I'm wondering if anyone has one they wanna sell -- or knows where I can find one. One of the big 6" wheels won't fit. Thanks. -Shannon Salb WAshington, DC ---- Start of Message 65283 (thread 28122) ---- From: tom thornton Date: 1999-07-23 12:50:00 Subject: Re: WTB small grinder wheel Shannon, Any regular hardware store should have a selection as well as Home Depot. You need to decide what your gonna grind with it so you can select the grade of wheel. I only buy 'fine' cause 99% of what I do is sharpen. You also need to see what size center you need, the old type has the 3/4 or 1 inch hub, later models use the 1/2 inch. Be sure you get blotters for the sides of the stone when you mount it. Newer stones have the blotter already attached. To get the max stone size measure the distance from the center of the shaft to the table top for the diameter and the length of the mounting shaft less the nut and washers for the thickness. ( Guess you know 6 inch is too big so look for the next smaller size). Whatever should be under $10.00. Let me know if you have any problems,,,,, Tom Thornton Cincinnati #3, F&AM , Morristown, N.J., USA Collector of old tools, specializing in hand cranked grindstones ---- Start of Message 65286 (thread 28122) ---- From: "Ellis, Thomas R" Date: 1999-07-23 13:27:00 Subject: Re: WTB small grinder wheel I also have a grinder with a 5" wheel. Have so far been unsuccessful at finding a replacement. However, I found an old 8" grinder in nice shape at the FM, so the issue is less pressing now :-). -Tom Ellis -----Original Message----- From: tom thornton [mailto:tomthornton@n...] Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 8:50 AM To: SSalbWW@a... Cc: a Tools Subject: Re: WTB small grinder wheel Shannon, Any regular hardware store should have a selection as well as Home Depot. You need to decide what your gonna grind with it so you can select the grade of wheel. ---- Start of Message 65292 (thread 28122) ---- From: SSalbWW@a... Date: 1999-07-23 14:08:00 Subject: Re: WTB small grinder wheel Alright, how bout a little guidance ! > only buy 'fine' cause 99% of what I do is sharpen. I'm going to use this to grind the initial bevel on my chisels and plane irons; I usually hone with sandpaper, so once I've worn away the convex, I'll use the grinder again. I guess I don't know what else there might be to use it for, anyway! So should I get fine? > You also need to see what size center you need, the old > type has the 3/4 or 1 inch hub, later models use the 1/2 > inch. Be sure you get blotters for the sides of the stone > when you mount it. Newer stones have the blotter already attached. Whats a blotter? The sizing info for dating will be useful. You sound knowledgeable about these things -- I've noticed that there is some resistance between about 2:00 and 5:00 on the rotation (it is not a direct drive, but some kind of gear assembly must be inside the housing) -- do you know if there is any way to fix that? It appears to have been oiled before being sent to me. ---- Start of Message 65321 (thread 28122) ---- From: tom thornton Date: 1999-07-23 17:16:00 Subject: Re: WTB small grinder wheel Shannon, > >I only buy 'fine' cause 99% of what I do is sharpen. > I'm going to use this to grind the initial bevel on my chisels and plane irons; I usually hone with sandpaper, so once I've worn away the convex, I'll use the grinder again. I guess I don't know what else there might be to use it for, anyway! So should I get fine? I'd sure get a fine. Those I have, ( both Norton and old Carborundum) remove enf with ease. Any coarser and I would have to work to get the grinding marks out. The last one I bot was from Home depot, was a Norton fine, under 10.00 (sort of red brown color), before you buy take it out of the box to assure there are no chips out of the sides. > Whats a blotter? The 'blotter's a soft cardboard washer that fits between the mounting washer and the stone, sort of compresses against the stone. Be aware that the stone is not to be held at the axle hole as one would expect, but more up on the sides at the mounting washer blotter area.. Gives much better support. If you can easily open the case do so. You'll probably find it packed with gook. If you want to get the best out of it plan on a night or two wiping and picking out the gook. I use anything I can find, que sticks, toothpicks, sucker sticks and paper towns and just keep cleaning. There is no simple way to do it, cause usually the grease is simply caked in. It if was all grease you would be ok but you'll find it is a mixture of grease and grit which really acts as grinding compound to wear away things. When you get the case pretty clean then you can go to work on the gears, your probably find a build up in the valleys of the gear that will take a metal pick to pull out, simple packed in crud. Once you get that out things should loosen up and be smooth again. When you get it all cleaned the temptation is to grease the hell out of it again. Resist, a light coating of oil will do just fine and make things much easier when it comes time to clean again. If you use electrolysis after you get most of the grease out you can cook off any rust and that will clean the interior bearing areas. I dry with a hair dryer so blowing out the bearing areas is easy, and again then just light coating of oil. Let me know if you have any more questions, BTW does it have a name anywhere about it ????? Tom Thornton Cincinnati #3, F&AM , Morristown, N.J., USA Collector of old tools, specializing in hand cranked grindstones ---- Start of Message 65332 (thread 28122) ---- From: Chris Dunn Date: 1999-07-23 19:14:00 Subject: Re: WTB small grinder wheel SSalbWW@a... wrote: > > Hi, folks. I bought one a them hand-crank grinders but it is missing its > grinding wheel. I *know* I had one but for the life of me I can't find it!!! > Grr. So I'm wondering if anyone has one they wanna sell -- or knows where I > can find one. One of the big 6" wheels won't fit. Thanks. > -Shannon Salb > WAshington, DC I was able to get one of those desired white AlOx wheels in a 4" diameter fom Grainger (http://www.grainger.com/). I posted the particular Grainger inventory number, etc a while back - you might want to search the archives (about 2-3 years ago) or dig thru their list of offerings yourself. I needed also to get a bushing to fill the gap between my grinder's shaft and the hole in the wheel (.5" OD X .375" ID) - which also came from Grainger. Another possible source: McMaster-Carr Supply Company http://www.mcmaster.com/ Chris ++++ End of thread 28122 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28123 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65291 (thread 28123) ---- From: Loganftp@a... Date: 1999-07-23 14:05:00 Subject: FS - July GG's Nice to see all your smiling faces again. Now that Im done doing my Tom Price impression (sitting in the driveway, pounding on the steering wheel muttering the list is down, the list is down) its time to make some room in the basement. **** PLEASE SEE TERMS AT THE END ******* For Sale: Stk #1 Stanley # 102 Block plane SHTM, really nice shape. Price $20.00 Stk #2 Stanley # 100 Squirrel tail block plane SHTM, the nut is a little rough but otherwise good + cond. Price $50.00 Stock #3 Stanley # 78 rabbet plane SHTM, the fence and depth stop are both there but they are both held on with replacement hardware store type screws which have most likely stripped out the original threads. Truly a user in very nice shape with a full length iron and 100% japanning, Price $45.00 Stock #4 Stanley # 68 rabbeting spokeshave SHTM, maybe 85% japanning with some minor chips here and there. The cap screw is a little rough but otherwise a nice piece. Price $65.00 Stock #5 3 - Stanley bevel edge socket chisels. Marked Stanley and underneath where it would normally say 720 or 740 is just stamped the letter D. These have the red lacquered handles that look original. Condition is excellent with some minor patina that could be cleaned off but absouletely no pitting - lengths are from tip to top of socket. Price $30.00/set 5/8 width - 5 1/2 1 width - 5 3/4 1 1/4 width - 6 1/8 Stk #6 - Stanley # 3 Plane type 17 WWII vintage, Japan near 100% Steel adj. nut, Hardwood knob and tote in excellent cond. virtually new iron, this is as close to perfect that I've seen, Price $60.00 Stk #7 - Stanley # 3 plane type 11 vintage. 1 5/16 left on correct V logo iron. Has a high knob which is not correct but looks to be original and has some wood missing at the base. Otherwise very good cond. Price $45.00 Stk #8 Stanley # 5 type 17 WWII vintage, has large dia. steel adj. nut, 95% japanning, full length iron, good wood and lots of patina. Price $25.00 Stk #9 Group of Keen Kutter auger bits in olive drab canvas roll. Set includes #4, #5, #7, #9, #10, #11 Keen Kutter bits. Ill throw in an Irwin #8 and a Russell Jennings #8, and an Irwin #6 and a Russell Jennings #6 for good measure. Price $35.00 Stk #10 Goodell Pratt 2 speed eggbeater drill. Missing top cap from handle and the chuck is a replacement 3-jaw but the rest is all there for parts or whatever. Price $5.00 Stock #11 Your choice of 3 Stanley # 65 marking gages. All three are missing the shoe but Bob at St. James can fix you up. All have hang holes and are in user shape but as Ralph will tell you, you can never have enough marking gages. Price $5.00 each Stock # 12 A complete # 65 marking gages - same condition as above but this one has the shoe. Price $10.00 Stk # 101 - Stanley # 5C type 8 B casting marks, 60-70% Japan, tons of patina on this one. - no pitting anywhere, tip missing off tote which was cracked and badly repaired sometime in its life, 1 3/4" left on correct iron, some nicks on knob t.o.u. - price $25.00 Stk # 102 - Stanley 6 C Type 19, Tip off of tote, 1 1/4" left on notched logo iron, not much nickel left on lever cap but lots of orange paint. Japan 75-80%, finish on knob and tote nicked and scratched in places. Price $45.00 **** TERMS ***** First unequivocal "I'll take it" gets it. Prices do not include shipping. I ship by USPS priority mail only. Standard "Oldtools Terms" if I recognize your name. If not, I'm sure we can work something out. For those of you overseas I'll be happy to deal with you but we will have to make some special arrangements beforehand. Thanks for looking! *********************************** Dave Tobbe (Loganftp@A...) Michigaloot ++++ End of thread 28123 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28124 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65294 (thread 28124) ---- From: "Generations Furniture" Date: 1999-07-23 14:20:00 Subject: Millers Falls question Hi Folks, Obviously, nobody had any thoughts on the Witherby Chisel question I posted recently, so let's try a Millers Falls. I picked up a Millers Falls spokeshave which has the 4 screws last weekend. It seems to have no blade, but a screwed in spacer(?) in the offset. Two questions. Where can I get a blade for this puppy. And what is the spacer for? It is not adjustable as far as I can tell, so what's the purpose? Any help appreciated. Bruce Z. Still wonderin' about those Witherbys with the funny tangs. ++++ End of thread 28124 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28125 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65300 (thread 28125) ---- From: "TODD HUGHES" Date: 1999-07-23 14:50:00 Subject: RE: You got to be kidding,check this out Well i e-mailed the fellow and he says he has an upson nut 32 1/2 rule and that it is worth $5000.I personally think he is full of it.I'm no rule man but I have several other upson nut rules and never heard of any bringing this.He is from columbus N.J. the site of a big flea market that I go to about every week, sure hope I didn't miss somthing there last time....Todd ++++ End of thread 28125 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28126 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65304 (thread 28126) ---- From: Richard Burton Date: 1999-07-23 15:37:00 Subject: old Disston saws My neighbor brought over three old Disston saws for me to see. I took some pictures of the medallions and other interesting parts. One medallion has an eagle in flight. One saw has three medallions. All have split nuts. Richard http://www.voicenet.com/~rburton/disston/saw1a.jpg http://www.voicenet.com/~rburton/disston/saw1b.jpg http://www.voicenet.com/~rburton/disston/saw2a.jpg http://www.voicenet.com/~rburton/disston/saw2b.jpg http://www.voicenet.com/~rburton/disston/saw3a.jpg http://www.voicenet.com/~rburton/disston/saw3b.jpg http://www.voicenet.com/~rburton/disston/saw3c.jpg http://www.voicenet.com/~rburton/disston/saw3d.jpg http://www.voicenet.com/~rburton/disston/saw3e.jpg http://www.voicenet.com/~rburton/disston/saw3f.jpg http://www.voicenet.com/~rburton/disston/saw3g.jpg http://www.voicenet.com/~rburton/disston/saw3h.jpg ++++ End of thread 28126 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28127 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65308 (thread 28127) ---- From: "Jerry Serviss" Date: 1999-07-23 17:17:00 Subject: Places Galoots should never live Seen in today's Wall Street Journal. Households in the following markets own the most power tools. Juneau, Alaska Glendive, Montana Presque Isle, Maine Burlington Vermont Plattsburgh, New York Traverse City, Michigan Cadillac, Michigan Twin Falls, Idaho Bangor, Maine Watertown, New York Wausau, Wisconsin Rhinelander, Wisconsin Rochester, Minnesota Mason City, Iowa Austin, Minnesota Source: Claritas Inc., Arlington Virginia My sympathies to any of you on the list who live in one of these god forsaken places. :) ---- Start of Message 65318 (thread 28127) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-07-23 17:40:00 Subject: RE: Places Galoots should never live Ah, But living in such places might make those old fashioned hand tools seem hardly useless. I just visited Burlington VT (which is on the list) while also visiting my wife who is near there this summer taking some graduate courses. While up there, I found several galootish type tools to bring home (and at a much better price than usually found in the old tool hell know as the South!) Guess nobody up there wants that old crap - trade them in for power tools! Keith Rucker Tifton, GA -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Serviss [mailto:serviss@e...] Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 1:18 PM To: OLDTOOLS@l... Subject: Places Galoots should never live Seen in today's Wall Street Journal. Households in the following markets own the most power tools. Juneau, Alaska Glendive, Montana Presque Isle, Maine Burlington Vermont Plattsburgh, New York Traverse City, Michigan Cadillac, Michigan Twin Falls, Idaho Bangor, Maine Watertown, New York Wausau, Wisconsin Rhinelander, Wisconsin Rochester, Minnesota Mason City, Iowa Austin, Minnesota Source: Claritas Inc., Arlington Virginia My sympathies to any of you on the list who live in one of these god forsaken places. :) ---- Start of Message 65319 (thread 28127) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 1999-07-24 17:58:00 Subject: RE: Places Galoots should never live Keith S. Rucker wrote: >Ah, But living in such places might make those old fashioned hand tools seem >hardly useless. I just visited Burlington VT (which is on the list) while >also visiting my wife who is near there this summer taking some graduate >courses. While up there, I found several galootish type tools to bring home >(and at a much better price than usually found in the old tool hell know as >the South!) Guess nobody up there wants that old crap - trade them in for >power tools! Well, it's certainly not true of all of us up in Vermont. ;-) OTOH, it's interesting to note that *all* the places mentioned mentioned on the list are waythegodup north. Reckon what did they include in their list of "power tools"? Snow blowers? Chain saws (for digging out from under branches after the ice storm)? Hard to believe that all those places are, on the average, more antigalootish than ; or for that matter Arlington VA (the source of the survey). N >Households in the following markets own the most power tools. > >Juneau, Alaska >Glendive, Montana >Presque Isle, Maine >Burlington Vermont >Plattsburgh, New York >Traverse City, Michigan >Cadillac, Michigan >Twin Falls, Idaho >Bangor, Maine >Watertown, New York >Wausau, Wisconsin >Rhinelander, Wisconsin >Rochester, Minnesota >Mason City, Iowa >Austin, Minnesota > >Source: Claritas Inc., Arlington Virginia ---- Start of Message 65320 (thread 28127) ---- From: "Erik von Sneidern" Date: 1999-07-23 17:47:00 Subject: Re: Places Galoots should never live Probably because Sears is one of the few places to shop in some of these towns. Erik von Sneidern Syracuse, NY - ---- Start of Message 65331 (thread 28127) ---- From: miket@c... Date: 1999-07-23 19:11:00 Subject: RE: Places Galoots should never live Yeah, but how many of those garage door openers do they have? -----Original Message----- From: owner-oldtools@l... [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Jerry Serviss Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 1:18 PM To: OLDTOOLS@l... Subject: Places Galoots should never live Seen in today's Wall Street Journal. Households in the following markets own the most power tools. Juneau, Alaska Glendive, Montana Presque Isle, Maine Burlington Vermont Plattsburgh, New York Traverse City, Michigan Cadillac, Michigan Twin Falls, Idaho Bangor, Maine Watertown, New York Wausau, Wisconsin Rhinelander, Wisconsin Rochester, Minnesota Mason City, Iowa Austin, Minnesota Source: Claritas Inc., Arlington Virginia My sympathies to any of you on the list who live in one of these god forsaken places. :) ---- Start of Message 65399 (thread 28127) ---- From: "Jon T. Patten" Date: 1999-07-25 05:11:00 Subject: Re: Places Galoots should never live What's scary here is that I grew up in Presque Isle, Maine. No wonder I didn't get into hand tools until I moved away from there. 8^) - Jon Living in oldtool paradise, here in Southern Maine. Jerry Serviss wrote: > Seen in today's Wall Street Journal. > > Households in the following markets own the most power tools. > > Juneau, Alaska > Glendive, Montana > Presque Isle, Maine > Burlington Vermont > Plattsburgh, New York > Traverse City, Michigan > Cadillac, Michigan > Twin Falls, Idaho > Bangor, Maine > Watertown, New York > Wausau, Wisconsin > Rhinelander, Wisconsin > Rochester, Minnesota > Mason City, Iowa > Austin, Minnesota > > Source: Claritas Inc., Arlington Virginia > > My sympathies to any of you on the list who live in one of these > god forsaken places. :) > > -- > Jerry Serviss > Always buying unique Yankee Tools > > -- ---- Start of Message 65436 (thread 28127) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-07-23 09:23:00 Subject: Re: Places Galoots should never live > > Seen in today's Wall Street Journal. > > Households in the following markets own the most power tools. > > Juneau, Alaska > Glendive, Montana > Presque Isle, Maine > Burlington Vermont > Plattsburgh, New York > Traverse City, Michigan > Cadillac, Michigan > Twin Falls, Idaho > Bangor, Maine > Watertown, New York > Wausau, Wisconsin > Rhinelander, Wisconsin > Rochester, Minnesota > Mason City, Iowa > Austin, Minnesota > > Source: Claritas Inc., Arlington Virginia > > My sympathies to any of you on the list who live in one of these > god forsaken places. :) Oh dear. Come on, apply a little thought. If they're all dashing out buying the latest, biggest power tools, they're going to place a REALLY low value on granpa's handtools... "This old things no good, hasn't even got a place to connect the dust collector..." Go there and BUY, BUY, BUY! BugBear. ++++ End of thread 28127 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28128 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65309 (thread 28128) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-07-23 16:35:00 Subject: Cleaning Wooden Planes Greetings Galoots, I was just wondering if anybody out there has any suggestions on how to properly clean a wooden plane (or any other wooden tool for that matter). I know I am risking being bashed by some members of the porch who do not believe in cleaning a tool no matter what, and for the most part I agree. There is something special and wonderful about the patina on a nice old tool. Those tools, however, are not the ones I am talking about wanting to clean up a little. What about the old tool that has been sitting in a barn, partially exposed to the elements for many a year. Wood dried out and maybe even water stains on it. I have a couple like this that really are not in that bad of condition but need a good cleaning before they go over the hill. Some time back, I saw a display in an antique mall down in North Florida, of a solution called "Kramer's Best Antique Improver". I did not buy any but in hind site I kind of wish I had tried it out. In his booth, he had an old molding plane and a Stanley level that looked something like what I described above. He had left half of it the way he found it and the other half treated with his "snake oil". The result was a revival of a near new looking tool on the treated areas. Being the skeptic that I am I passed on it (I also thought it was too highly priced - about $50 per quart). I am not in any way trying to endorse his product and have never tried it myself but was wondering if anybody out there had a recipe for a concoction that might do something similar. While the bottle did not in any way give any hints as to what was inside on the label, you could clearly see that there were three or four layers of oils that had separated in the bottles (another reason that I passed is that you could also clearly see that the proportions of oils were not even close to being the same in the different bottles, indicating to me sloppy process control). I would be interested in hearing what some of you more experienced galoots might have come up with that works for you when cleaning wooden tools. I am not interested in buying old beat up tools and "improving" them to re-sale to unsuspecting people, but I would be interested in taking some of my tools in worser condition and trying to restore them closer back to original condition. Who know, maybe I can even bring out that wonderful patina that is lost somewhere beneath the gunk and grime! Please don't bash, just let me know of what has worked for you. Thanks, Keith Rucker Tifton, GA ---- Start of Message 65312 (thread 28128) ---- From: ralph.brendler@a... (Ralph Brendler) Date: 1999-07-23 16:59:00 Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes Keith Rucker asks: >I would be interested in hearing what some of you more experienced galoots >might have come up with that works for you when cleaning wooden tools. I recently bought Herb Kean's book "Restoring Antique Tools", and it contains a wealth of information about the tricks of the tool restorers. While I quibble with some of his recommendations (even a soft brass wire wheel is too much for me), his information is sound, and there are lots of cool techniques I'd not heard of before. His section of cleaning wood is far and away the best part of the book-- I used an old junker Stanley #62 marking gage to experiment with, and his techniques got it looking much better without making it look like something from H.R. Buff-n-stuff... ;-) ralph ---- Start of Message 65313 (thread 28128) ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 1999-07-24 16:59:00 Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes At 12:35 PM 7/23/99 -0400, Keith S. Rucker wrote: >Greetings Galoots, > >I was just wondering if anybody out there has any suggestions on how to >properly clean a wooden plane (or any other wooden tool for that matter). > [...] >Please don't bash, just let me know of what has worked for you. Hi Keith Speaking as a satisfied customer (well, not customer exactly, but you know...) you'd do well to check out Tony Seo's plane-cleanin' page: http://www.geocities.com/PicketFence/1395/cleaning.html and the recipe for his beeswax concoction: http://www.geocities.com/PicketFence/1395/formula.html I found these to be of great help. Nichael ---- Start of Message 65314 (thread 28128) ---- From: "Ellis, Thomas R" Date: 1999-07-23 17:03:00 Subject: RE: Cleaning Wooden Planes As many have suggested in the past, 0000 steel wool with paint thinner (mineral spirits) followed by a waxing can do (non-destructive) wonders. If you have some paint spots, the thinner softens things enough that some gentle scraping with a razor knife usually removes the spots without damage. This leaves the "black areas". More rubbing with the steel wool will clean this up, but it's easy to rub too much. -Tom Ellis -----Original Message----- From: Keith S. Rucker [mailto:ksrucker@s...] Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 12:35 PM To: OLDTOOLS Subject: Cleaning Wooden Planes Greetings Galoots, I was just wondering if anybody out there has any suggestions on how to properly clean a wooden plane (or any other wooden tool for that matter). ---- Start of Message 65322 (thread 28128) ---- From: tom thornton Date: 1999-07-23 18:14:00 Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes Keith, I went to a seminar several years ago held by one of the folks here in the east who does 'restoring' for a living. On wood tools he recommended using fine steel wool with regular paint/varnish remover as a solvent rubbed on with the steel wool. Then when things are the proper state of clean washing it off with normal mineral spirits and paper towels to dry. I have used it on those few wooden things I have, and found it to do the job quite well.. For replacing the finish he recommended plain old Minwax Wood Sheen of the shade desired applied as directed. I sort of take issue with the tung oil and other oil theories cause to me anything that takes much time to dry absorbs dust while its drying resulting in a dust covered coating which can't really be wiped clean. I guess I have a 'thing' about oiled surfaces from my early days of small machine repair where the greatest wear came from oil which had absorbed the local dust and dirt becoming a hard caked finish that tended to plug and obstruct the bearing surfaces. Over oiling cause more problems that normal wear and tear. ---- Start of Message 65327 (thread 28128) ---- From: Jack Kamishlian Date: 1999-07-23 19:00:00 Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes Keith, FWIW, I've used Murphy's Soap for my first pass in cleaning wood - diluted with water of course. My rationale is that it's the mildest cleaner for the first pass. The soap will clean fairly well, but I've used it more than once on the same part if it was real grungy. Also, the water doesn't soak that deep into the wood, and the wood does dry after a day or so. After cleaning, the wood does need some regeneration - turp and boiled linseed oil, or nuno's formula for finishing. I hesitate to use mineral spirits 'cause it gets absorbed into the wood so quickly, and probably takes forever to dry out. Mebbe I'm too cautious - my 2 cents Cheers, Jack in Endwell NY Keith S. Rucker wrote: > > Greetings Galoots, > > I was just wondering if anybody out there has any suggestions on how to > properly clean a wooden plane (or any other wooden tool for that matter). I > know I am risking being bashed by some members of the porch who do not > believe in cleaning a tool no matter what, and for the most part I agree. > There is something special and wonderful about the patina on a nice old > tool. Those tools, however, are not the ones I am talking about wanting to > clean up a little. What about the old tool that has been sitting in a barn, > partially exposed to the elements for many a year. Wood dried out and maybe > even water stains on it. I have a couple like this that really are not in > that bad of condition but need a good cleaning before they go over the hill. > > Some time back, I saw a display in an antique mall down in North Florida, of > a solution called "Kramer's Best Antique Improver". I did not buy any but > in hind site I kind of wish I had tried it out. In his booth, he had an old > molding plane and a Stanley level that looked something like what I > described above. He had left half of it the way he found it and the other > half treated with his "snake oil". The result was a revival of a near new > looking tool on the treated areas. Being the skeptic that I am I passed on > it (I also thought it was too highly priced - about $50 per quart). I am > not in any way trying to endorse his product and have never tried it myself > but was wondering if anybody out there had a recipe for a concoction that > might do something similar. While the bottle did not in any way give any > hints as to what was inside on the label, you could clearly see that there > were three or four layers of oils that had separated in the bottles (another > reason that I passed is that you could also clearly see that the proportions > of oils were not even close to being the same in the different bottles, > indicating to me sloppy process control). > > I would be interested in hearing what some of you more experienced galoots > might have come up with that works for you when cleaning wooden tools. I am > not interested in buying old beat up tools and "improving" them to re-sale > to unsuspecting people, but I would be interested in taking some of my tools > in worser condition and trying to restore them closer back to original > condition. Who know, maybe I can even bring out that wonderful patina that > is lost somewhere beneath the gunk and grime! > > Please don't bash, just let me know of what has worked for you. > > Thanks, > > Keith Rucker > Tifton, GA > > -- ---- Start of Message 65334 (thread 28128) ---- From: Jack Kamishlian Date: 1999-07-23 19:21:00 Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes Whoops, I meant Tony's formula, not Nuno's. And I generally use a toothbrush for cleaning. Or a paint brush where I've cut down the bristles. Jack ---- Start of Message 65336 (thread 28128) ---- From: "Hal Laurent" Date: 1999-07-23 19:43:00 Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes Jack Kamishlian said: > I hesitate to use mineral spirits 'cause it gets absorbed into the > wood so quickly, and probably takes forever to dry out. Mineral spirits dries more quickly than water. Or you could use naptha, which evaporates much more quickly than mineral spirits. ----------------------------- Hal Laurent, Baltimore MD, US laurent@c... ---- Start of Message 65337 (thread 28128) ---- From: "Ellis, Thomas R" Date: 1999-07-23 19:44:00 Subject: RE: Cleaning Wooden Planes Actually one reason for using mineral spirits is that it dries so *quickly*. For example, if you want to check the surface of a board, wet it with mineral spirits and hold the board at an angle to a light. Do this with water, and you'll have a fuzzed surface, and have to wait a long time for it to dry. Mineral spirits dry very quickly. So much so that you can clean a woody, let it sit for no more than 1/2 hr and apply wax. Even though MS are a solvent for wax you shouldn't have any problem. -Tom Ellis -----Original Message----- From: Jack Kamishlian [mailto:kamishlianj@p...] Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 3:00 PM To: ksrucker@s... Cc: OLDTOOLS Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes I hesitate to use mineral spirits 'cause it gets absorbed into the wood so quickly, and probably takes forever to dry out. ---- Start of Message 65339 (thread 28128) ---- From: Chris Dunn Date: 1999-07-23 20:10:00 Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes Hal Laurent wrote: > > Jack Kamishlian said: > > > I hesitate to use mineral spirits 'cause it gets absorbed into the > > wood so quickly, and probably takes forever to dry out. > > Mineral spirits dries more quickly than water. Or you could use > naptha I don't undewstand how a twade agweement with Mexico could help in cweaning a pwane ..... Elmer ---- Start of Message 65341 (thread 28128) ---- From: "Ellis, Thomas R" Date: 1999-07-23 20:23:00 Subject: RE: Cleaning Wooden Planes Nothing like a good silly laugh to end the week. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Dunn [mailto:a065117@e...] Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 4:11 PM To: laurent@c... Cc: OLDTOOLS Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes > > Mineral spirits dries more quickly than water. Or you could use > naptha I don't undewstand how a twade agweement with Mexico could help in cweaning a pwane ..... ---- Start of Message 65342 (thread 28128) ---- From: "Al Brockman" Date: 1999-07-23 21:27:00 Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes Hi, keith - I'm sure there are all sorts of methods for cleaning/treating wooden planes/tools. However, let me say that I swear by Kramer's. I have been using it for several years. Yes, it is expensive. Does it work? You Betcha!!! I don't know what the ingredients are but they really do it. My SWMBO is constantly amazed at what the "pieces of junk you bought at the yard sale" (her term for old wooden planes) look like after Kramers. We also have some VERY old furniture (George III vintage) and I use Kramers on them. Works like a charm. In answer to your question, No, I don't own stock in Kramers but I do appreciate a quality product. So, use linseed oil or mineral spirits (or any other kind of spirits) or paint thinner or Murphy's or ??? But if you want a beautiful patina to be maintained or restored, try kramers. I put it on with a light touch of those green 3M pads and wipe with a cloth. ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith S. Rucker To: OLDTOOLS Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 12:35 PM Subject: Cleaning Wooden Planes > Greetings Galoots, > > I was just wondering if anybody out there has any suggestions on how to > properly clean a wooden plane (or any other wooden tool for that matter). I > know I am risking being bashed by some members of the porch who do not > believe in cleaning a tool no matter what, and for the most part I agree. > There is something special and wonderful about the patina on a nice old > tool. Those tools, however, are not the ones I am talking about wanting to > clean up a little. What about the old tool that has been sitting in a barn, > partially exposed to the elements for many a year. Wood dried out and maybe > even water stains on it. I have a couple like this that really are not in > that bad of condition but need a good cleaning before they go over the hill. > > Some time back, I saw a display in an antique mall down in North Florida, of > a solution called "Kramer's Best Antique Improver". I did not buy any but > in hind site I kind of wish I had tried it out. In his booth, he had an old > molding plane and a Stanley level that looked something like what I > described above. He had left half of it the way he found it and the other > half treated with his "snake oil". The result was a revival of a near new > looking tool on the treated areas. Being the skeptic that I am I passed on > it (I also thought it was too highly priced - about $50 per quart). I am > not in any way trying to endorse his product and have never tried it myself > but was wondering if anybody out there had a recipe for a concoction that > might do something similar. While the bottle did not in any way give any > hints as to what was inside on the label, you could clearly see that there > were three or four layers of oils that had separated in the bottles (another > reason that I passed is that you could also clearly see that the proportions > of oils were not even close to being the same in the different bottles, > indicating to me sloppy process control). > > I would be interested in hearing what some of you more experienced galoots > might have come up with that works for you when cleaning wooden tools. I am > not interested in buying old beat up tools and "improving" them to re-sale > to unsuspecting people, but I would be interested in taking some of my tools > in worser condition and trying to restore them closer back to original > condition. Who know, maybe I can even bring out that wonderful patina that > is lost somewhere beneath the gunk and grime! > > Please don't bash, just let me know of what has worked for you. > > Thanks, > > Keith Rucker > Tifton, GA > > -- > ---- Start of Message 65354 (thread 28128) ---- From: Jack Kamishlian Date: 1999-07-24 01:23:00 Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes Tom and Hal say mineral spirits dry quicker than water. No argument. And naptha evaporates quicker. I'm probably biased in favor of water and Murphy's soap because I work in the basement, and try to keep volatiles down to a minumum. Hence, my recommendation is colored by where I do my cleaning, as opposed to the best cleaning method. Jack - who spent a lot of time on the back porch cleaning off that machinist's chest with alcohol- in the heat and humidity. Don't want to go there again. ---- Start of Message 65357 (thread 28128) ---- From: John Lederer Date: 1999-07-24 03:04:00 Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes Nichael Cramer wrote: > At 12:35 PM 7/23/99 -0400, Keith S. Rucker wrote: > >Greetings Galoots, > > > >I was just wondering if anybody out there has any suggestions on how to > >properly clean a wooden plane (or any other wooden tool for that matter). > > [...] > >Please don't bash, just let me know of what has worked for you. > > Hi Keith > > Speaking as a satisfied customer (well, not customer exactly, but you > know...) you'd do well to check out Tony Seo's plane-cleanin' page: > > http://www.geocities.com/PicketFence/1395/cleaning.html > > and the recipe for his beeswax concoction: > > http://www.geocities.com/PicketFence/1395/formula.html > > I found these to be of great help. > > Nichael > > -- ---- Start of Message 65358 (thread 28128) ---- From: John Lederer Date: 1999-07-24 03:07:00 Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes Just a minor suggestion--- rather than melting over a stove, in the summer months I have had very good luck just putting various beeswax mixtures in a mason jar and putting it in the sun with a loose fitted cap. Gets plenty warm to dissolve the beeswax... Regards, John Lederer Oregon, Wisconsin Nichael Cramer wrote: > > > Speaking as a satisfied customer (well, not customer exactly, but you > know...) you'd do well to check out Tony Seo's plane-cleanin' page: > > http://www.geocities.com/PicketFence/1395/cleaning.html > > and the recipe for his beeswax concoction: > > http://www.geocities.com/PicketFence/1395/formula.html > > I ---- Start of Message 65360 (thread 28128) ---- From: DoveTailed@a... Date: 1999-07-24 04:12:00 Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes Keith, I don't want to appear uninformed, but regrettably I have no choice. What is "Kramer's", or perhaps better stated, Kramer's what? And where do you buy it, other than from Kramer. Thanks, Quent Quentin Wheeler dovetailed@a... ---- Start of Message 65371 (thread 28128) ---- From: Roeder/Kraft Date: 1999-07-24 13:57:00 Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes Hi all, Be very careful when using water on wooden planes. The use of water in the vicinity of maker's marks can cause the wood fibres that were compacted at the time of stamping to swell again--resulting in a lighter mark than you started out with. It also conceivable that on thinner planes -- expecially the thinner rabbets which expose a lot of end grain in the escapement--that you could get enough absorption to cause twist (the curse of narrow molding planes.) Randy Roeder -- who damaged a few marks in his greenhorn days with water-based strippers "Keith S. Rucker" wrote: > Greetings Galoots, > > I was just wondering if anybody out there has any suggestions on how to > properly clean a wooden plane (or any other wooden tool for that matter). I > know I am risking being bashed by some members of the porch who do not > believe in cleaning a tool no matter what, and for the most part I agree. > There is something special and wonderful about the patina on a nice old > tool. Those tools, however, are not the ones I am talking about wanting to > clean up a little. What about the old tool that has been sitting in a barn, > partially exposed to the elements for many a year. Wood dried out and maybe > even water stains on it. I have a couple like this that really are not in > that bad of condition but need a good cleaning before they go over the hill. > > Some time back, I saw a display in an antique mall down in North Florida, of > a solution called "Kramer's Best Antique Improver". I did not buy any but > in hind site I kind of wish I had tried it out. In his booth, he had an old > molding plane and a Stanley level that looked something like what I > described above. He had left half of it the way he found it and the other > half treated with his "snake oil". The result was a revival of a near new > looking tool on the treated areas. Being the skeptic that I am I passed on > it (I also thought it was too highly priced - about $50 per quart). I am > not in any way trying to endorse his product and have never tried it myself > but was wondering if anybody out there had a recipe for a concoction that > might do something similar. While the bottle did not in any way give any > hints as to what was inside on the label, you could clearly see that there > were three or four layers of oils that had separated in the bottles (another > reason that I passed is that you could also clearly see that the proportions > of oils were not even close to being the same in the different bottles, > indicating to me sloppy process control). > > I would be interested in hearing what some of you more experienced galoots > might have come up with that works for you when cleaning wooden tools. I am > not interested in buying old beat up tools and "improving" them to re-sale > to unsuspecting people, but I would be interested in taking some of my tools > in worser condition and trying to restore them closer back to original > condition. Who know, maybe I can even bring out that wonderful patina that > is lost somewhere beneath the gunk and grime! > > Please don't bash, just let me know of what has worked for you. > > Thanks, > > Keith Rucker > Tifton, GA > > -- ---- Start of Message 65372 (thread 28128) ---- From: "Al Brockman" Date: 1999-07-24 15:50:00 Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes Hi - "Kramers" is Kramer's Best Antique Improver. You can find out more about it at his web site: http://www.kramerize.com/ If you click on "what is KBAI", you get his straight scoop Hope that helps (BTW - just completed kramerizing an old Stanley level) Al ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Saturday, July 24, 1999 12:12 AM Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes > Keith, > > I don't want to appear uninformed, but regrettably I have no choice. What is > "Kramer's", or perhaps better stated, Kramer's what? And where do you buy > it, other than from Kramer. > > Thanks, > > Quent > > Quentin Wheeler > dovetailed@a... > ---- Start of Message 65516 (thread 28128) ---- From: "Bill Taggart" Date: 1999-07-27 03:15:00 Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes Jack wrote: >I hesitate to use mineral spirits 'cause it gets absorbed into the >wood so quickly, and probably takes forever to dry out. > >Mebbe I'm too cautious - my 2 cents Yep. I use it for all wooden object - planes, plane handles, saw handles. Also the get a feel for what a piece of wood will look like with just a clear finish on it - spread some on and look at the wood at an angle. In about fifteen minutes, it's all gone. Also cleans any sticky stuff off the wood in prep for finishing... I use the method mentioned by others - fine steel wool, with a mineral spirits and wax mixture (sometimes just mineral spirits first to clean off heavy grunge - sometimes I use stuff called "bond stripper" if there's some really bad gunky stuff or really trashed finish - it's methanol and methylene chloride (USE IN WELL VENTILATED AREA), so it evaporates really quickly - I find that when used sparingly and carefully, it still leaves a warm patina - doesn't harshly strip the wood. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 65527 (thread 28128) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-07-27 06:36:00 Subject: Re: Cleaning Wooden Planes > I use the method mentioned by others - fine steel wool, with a > mineral spirits and wax mixture (sometimes just mineral spirits > first to clean off heavy grunge - sometimes I use stuff called > "bond stripper" if there's some really bad gunky stuff or really > trashed finish - it's methanol and methylene chloride (USE IN > WELL VENTILATED AREA), so it evaporates really quickly - I find > that when used sparingly and carefully, it still leaves a warm > patina - doesn't harshly strip the wood. > The archetypal "magic" used by the antique trade as a one-step renovate is a mixture of: white spirit linseed oil vinegar (a little) Proportions vary. There are commercial version also. The essential idea is that the white spirit and vinegar lift and remove the crap, and a small amount of linseed will remain as a finish. Note: this is not a premium technique. It follows the 90/10 rule. Getting a result better than this brew gets takes much more effort. This is the brew you use to buy a piece, clean it up, and sell it at a profit before repeating the process. BugBear. ++++ End of thread 28128 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28129 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65311 (thread 28129) ---- From: JF1616@a... Date: 1999-07-23 16:23:00 Subject: Shellac testimonial Greetings all, Before the outage there were some posts about shellac, so thought I'd share my recent experiences using Paddylac. Though nothing new to lots of you it was the first time I've used shellac flakes. I have used canned shellac before and didn't have any problems using it, but didn't like it that much either. Recently I got a desk at a garage sale. It was used by a man in a home office and has lots of drawers and cubby holes. It's made of pine and the only problem was the very dark stain he had put on it. Well I stripped the finish, first and last time of ever doing that, did lots of scraping, using a #80 and every hand scraper I had, hand sanded then came time for the finish. Having bought some Paddylac, I mixed about a 2 lb cut of the blonde. It seemed a little bit thinner than what I wanted, so I just threw in some lemon and orange to the jar.The first coat came out great, adding just the right color to the wood, giving it some zing without having that stained look.I used another coat of that mixture, ran a bit low on it so added some super blonde mix for the third coat, then super blonde alone for the 4th and final coat. I mixed the shellac with denatured alcohol from the hardware store, was careful to brush out any drips while applying and didn't do any rubbing out between coats. It couldn't have been any easier. I rubbed it out with fine steel wool to get rid of the high gloss and the desk looks super. My only caution would be about breathing in the alcohol fumes. After the first coat I had a headache, even though I was outside. I don't have a resperator, but used a dust mask the next day,was careful about not breathing in the fumes,applied 3 coats, and had no problems. The bottom line is Paddylac is great stuff. Regards, Janet Fisher Miami,Fl ---- Start of Message 65392 (thread 28129) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-07-25 02:02:00 Subject: Re: Shellac testimonial On Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:23:54 EDT JF1616@a... writes: . I mixed >the shellac with denatured alcohol from the hardware store, >was careful to brush out any drips while applying and didn't >do any rubbing out between coats >My only caution would be about breathing in the alcohol fumes. >After the first coat I had a headache, even though I was >outside. I don't have a resperator, but used a dust mask the >next day,was careful about not breathing in the fumes,applied >3 coats, and had no problems. > Alchohol shouldn't do that (give you headaches). Check the label on the alcohol. I'll bet it's denatured with methyl ketone--very nasty stuff. If you buy denatured alcohol that is all alcohol (methanol, ethanol, isopropynol) you'll be much happier. Or buy everclear grain alcohol sold in liquor stores. Many swear by it. ---- Start of Message 65556 (thread 28129) ---- From: Ron Hock Date: 1999-07-27 15:38:00 Subject: Re: Shellac testimonial > My only caution would be about breathing in the alcohol fumes. > After the first coat I had a headache, even though I was > outside. Shellac is used to repaint the insides of commercial, walk-in fridges and freezers because it will dry even though the box is cold. My BIL, the paint maker, tells me of two fridge painters who got popped for DUIs (that's driving under the influence, Jeff) on the way home from work after breathing all that alcohol. Be careful out there. Ron Whose "Hock Shellac Kits" (flakes in a jar with a bottle of ethanol in the same box; makes about 10 fl.oz. of 2# cut) should be hitting the stores next month. Been in the works now for a year, finally seeing daylight. Look for them at Woodcraft stores first, then we'll work on the catalogs, etc. I don't expect much interest from all you experienced shellac sophisticates, but I hope to take the uncertainty and wonder out of mixing fresh shellac for the first timers out there. Wish me luck. ---- Start of Message 65587 (thread 28129) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-28 03:02:00 Subject: Re: Shellac testimonial On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:38:45 -0700, you wrote: >Whose "Hock Shellac Kits" (flakes in a jar with a bottle of ethanol in >the same box; makes about 10 fl.oz. of 2# cut) should be hitting the >stores next month. Been in the works now for a year, finally seeing >daylight. Look for them at Woodcraft stores first, then we'll work on >the catalogs, etc. I don't expect much interest from all you experienced >shellac sophisticates, but I hope to take the uncertainty and wonder out >of mixing fresh shellac for the first timers out there. Wish me luck. cool hope it works for you. Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ---- Start of Message 65630 (thread 28129) ---- From: SSalbWW@a... Date: 1999-07-28 17:25:00 Subject: Re: Shellac testimonial Gosh, I don't want to be a wet rag, but I confess to being a bit surprised when I read about Ron Hock's new venture. I love his plane irons, and own many of 'em. I've found him to be quite helpful and nice, and he even offered to replace one of his products after *I* screwed it up. But I guess I don't see the connection between shellac and great plane irons. I wouldn't give it a second thought, but for my knowledge that another of our community is already in this sort of venture. 'Course, Mr. Hock already has a relationship with Woodcraft, so he's got that avenue open to him; I don't know if Paddy has any interest in that route. I am definately not anti-competition (its pretty cool watching Tom LN build his empire), but -- well, lets just say I'll keep sending my few dollars in the same direction (and that goes for great plane irons as well!). -Shannon Salb (I won't mention that I live in Washington, D.C. - the potshots would come too easily ) In a message dated 7/27/99 4:25:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, stevek@p... writes: > >Whose "Hock Shellac Kits" (flakes in a jar with a bottle of ethanol in > >the same box; makes about 10 fl.oz. of 2# cut) should be hitting the > >stores next month. Been in the works now for a year, finally seeing > >daylight. Look for them at Woodcraft stores first, then we'll work on > >the catalogs, etc. I don't expect much interest from all you experienced > >shellac sophisticates, but I hope to take the uncertainty and wonder out > >of mixing fresh shellac for the first timers out there. Wish me luck. > > cool hope it works for you. > ---- Start of Message 65633 (thread 28129) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-29 03:25:00 Subject: Re: Shellac testimonial On Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:25:57 EDT, you wrote: >Gosh, I don't want to be a wet rag, but I confess to being a bit surprised >when I read about Ron Hock's new venture. I love his plane irons, and own >many of 'em. I've found him to be quite helpful and nice, and he even >offered to replace one of his products after *I* screwed it up. But I guess >I don't see the connection between shellac and great plane irons. I wouldn't >give it a second thought, but for my knowledge that another of our community >is already in this sort of venture. 'Course, Mr. Hock already has a >relationship with Woodcraft, so he's got that avenue open to him; I don't >know if Paddy has any interest in that route. I am definately not >anti-competition (its pretty cool watching Tom LN build his empire), but -- >well, lets just say I'll keep sending my few dollars in the same direction >(and that goes for great plane irons as well!). >-Shannon Salb I do not think there will be any conflict because they are two different markets. In this world it is hard to make it on one line if merchandize. Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ---- Start of Message 65646 (thread 28129) ---- From: Ron Hock Date: 1999-07-29 00:26:00 Subject: Re: Shellac testimonial The connection between me and shellac is simple: I have a paint maker in the family. In fact, a whole family of paint makers. We started this about a year ago when one of my nephews suggested some Hock brand wood finishes and since my customers are adherents to the old fashioned ways of woodwork, I suggested that we develop something in shellac ("another technological giant step back... from Hock"). A mix-it-yourself "kit" seemed to be missing from the marketplace so we've started there. Don't worry about Paddy's efforts, I aiming for the entry-level finisher that's only heard how great fresh shellac is but doesn't want to have to hunt down the flakes and which alcohol is best and all that. Once they're hooked, they can track down bulk flakes from whomever and I'll certainly recommend Paddylac (and link to it from the hockfinishes website that doesn't exist yet.) Ron > Gosh, I don't want to be a wet rag, but I confess to being a bit surprised > when I read about Ron Hock's new venture. I love his plane irons, and own > many of 'em. I've found him to be quite helpful and nice, and he even > offered to replace one of his products after *I* screwed it up. But I guess > I don't see the connection between shellac and great plane irons. I wouldn't > give it a second thought, but for my knowledge that another of our community > is already in this sort of venture. 'Course, Mr. Hock already has a > relationship with Woodcraft, so he's got that avenue open to him; I don't > know if Paddy has any interest in that route. I am definately not > anti-competition (its pretty cool watching Tom LN build his empire), but -- > well, lets just say I'll keep sending my few dollars in the same direction > (and that goes for great plane irons as well!). ---- Start of Message 65653 (thread 28129) ---- From: John Gunterman Date: 1999-07-28 21:26:00 Subject: Re: Shellac testimonial At 01:25 PM 7/28/99 -0400, SSalbWW@a... wrote: >Gosh, I don't want to be a wet rag, but I confess to being a bit surprised >when I read about Ron Hock's new venture. I love his plane irons, and own >many of 'em. I've found him to be quite helpful and nice, and he even >offered to replace one of his products after *I* screwed it up. Yup, he's a swell Dude, alright. >I don't see the connection between shellac and great plane irons. His Bro' is in the Paint Business, makes some swell stuff, you should check it out. > I wouldn't >give it a second thought, but for my knowledge that another of our community >is already in this sort of venture. The way I see it, we got it good having Paddy and the list and all that. But think of all the poor schlubs that don't have access to the knowledge and sources we do thanks to the Internet. And the folks that have no clue what shellac (real fresh roll your own, shellac, not he canned crap.) In the grand scheme of things, we are but a sliver of a % of the woodworkers out there. Now I certainly don't mean to put words on Ron's mouth, but that is the way I see it. ---- Start of Message 65654 (thread 28129) ---- From: Steve Jones Date: 1999-07-29 01:29:00 Subject: Re: Shellac testimonial At 05:26 PM 7/28/99 -0700, Ron wrote: >The connection between me and shellac is simple: I have a paint maker in >the family. In fact, a whole family of paint makers. We started this >about a year ago when one of my nephews suggested some Hock brand wood >finishes and since my customers are adherents to the old fashioned ways >of woodwork, I suggested that we develop something in shellac ("another >technological giant step back... from Hock"). A mix-it-yourself "kit" >seemed to be missing from the marketplace so we've started there. Don't >worry about Paddy's efforts, I aiming for the entry-level finisher >that's only heard how great fresh shellac is but doesn't want to have to >hunt down the flakes and which alcohol is best and all that. Once >they're hooked, they can track down bulk flakes from whomever and I'll >certainly recommend Paddylac (and link to it from the hockfinishes >website that doesn't exist yet.) It sounds like a great idea to me. I have about 5 lbs. of Paddylac waiting to bathe in some alcohol but I may give Ron's package a shot too. Just my $.02. Steve Jones Kokomo IN with nothing finished so nothing to finish. Yet. ---- Start of Message 65723 (thread 28129) ---- From: "Bill Taggart" Date: 1999-07-30 02:35:00 Subject: Re: Shellac testimonial >Shellac is used to repaint the insides of commercial, walk-in fridges >and freezers because it will dry even though the box is cold. My BIL, >the paint maker, tells me of two fridge painters who got popped for DUIs >(that's driving under the influence, Jeff) on the way home from work >after breathing all that alcohol. Be careful out there. Sounds like their employer needs a little lesson on OSHA regulations... ;-) - Bill Taggart - Finally at home in Califon, NJ, USA ++++ End of thread 28129 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28130 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65323 (thread 28130) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-07-23 18:29:00 Subject: Wife Gloat! Greetings Galoots, All to often on this list, I keep hearing how so many of you out there grip and complain about your wives and how they nag you about acquiring old tools. Thought I would share with you what happened to me the other day so that you could see how lucky some of us are. My wonderful wife and I share in the joy of searching through antique and junk stores looking for hidden treasures. Both of us have certain things we are always looking for - her old books and certain china patterns and myself, old tools. My wife holds a graduate degree in English and teaches Literature at a nearby high school. This summer, she applied for and was granted a fellowship to the Breadloaf School of English at Middlebury VT. Been kind of rough having her away from home for 7 weeks this summer, especially with our two year old daughter that I have been left to take care of. I went and visited her a couple of weeks ago for a long weekend and while there, we scoured the countryside, going through more antique shops and local flea markets that I care to recall. One of the first little stores we stopped at had a rather nice Disston back saw at a very fair price. I looked it over real close and decided that I already had several back saws and would rather save the stash of cash I had in my pocket in case I came across things I wanted (er, I mean needed) that were higher on my priority list. As it turned out, at the end of the trip, I had picked up several nice items but still had some of my budget in my pocket. I wished I had bought the saw after all. My wife then nicely offered to stop in the shop a few days later when she knew she would be in the area - not too far out of the way she insisted. I gave her the cash and got on the plane (the kind that fly in the air) to head home. She called me a few days later and told me that she had gone back by the shop and they still had the saw. Now, the saw was a pretty darn good deal at the price that was listed and I would have probably felt somewhat guilty in trying to get it much cheaper. My wife not really knowing the value of the saw went to the owner and talked him down to even a lower price and walked out the door with it. She will be bringing it home with her when she returns in a few weeks! As if that was not enough, I was sitting at home this past weekend and the phone rang. My wife and one of her friends had decided to take a little road trip over the weekend to Boston and then up to Maine. She was at some little antique store in New Hampshire and had spotted some nice Stanley stuff. When I picked up the phone, without even saying hello, she blurts out "Do you have a Stanley #45?" I inform her that I do and she says "Well they got a nice one in here" and tells me the price. The price was nice but I just did not trust her to determine if it actually had all of the parts that go along with it and I really did not need another one anyway so I said I would pass. She then asks "Well, do you have a Stanley #48?" The wheels start turning in my head, I did not have one and had kind of been looking for the right one to come up at a decent price but again, was a little scared of my wife, who knows nothing about tools, determining if it was complete or not. She told me the price, which was not no steal but still a little lower than average. I inquired as to the condition and she assured me that all of that "black finish" is on it and it really looks nice. I then give her some instructions to check out to be sure everything is complete and there. She took notes (literally) on what to check and then informs me that she has enough cash to buy it with "her" money and if I wanted it she would get it for me. I was still a little scared since I had not seen it myself and really do not know the condition or anything but then I started thinking. Here is my wife WANTING to buy a tool for me and going out of the way to try to get it. She called me back that evening, about a proud as I have ever heard her, telling me she just could not wait to bring the little prize home for me. I have yet to see it but even if it is dog meat (which I really no not think it will be), I am just happy to have a wife who goes to the trouble to seek out tools for me when I am not there to do it myself. Guess I will have to start taking a closer look at all of those old books to try to find her favorite authors! Keith Rucker Tifton, GA ++++ End of thread 28130 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28131 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65324 (thread 28131) ---- From: "Mcbride,C" Date: 1999-07-23 18:44:00 Subject: set OLDTOOLS mail postpone ++++ End of thread 28131 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28132 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65326 (thread 28132) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-07-23 18:48:00 Subject: Re: UPS v USPS (was having trouble with... In my area, N. New Mexico, UPS (pronounced "oops" here) is pretty good and USPS is dreadful! While I have gotten a few dinged packages from USPS, I have never had anything damaged and delivery is prompt. I find the drivers very pleasant and cooperative to work with. I have had several disasters with USPS (pronounced "oospuss") including instances where they completely destroyed packages I sent and even lost the contents. To add insult to injury, when I received notices of these catastrophes they were accomplished by scolding notes about packaging techniques or about how mechanization (it was a machine that had mangled one of my packages) is making life better for everyone - nothing that even faintly resembled an apology. My packages had been /very/ securely packed, and were designed to withstand a direct hit by an 800 pound gorilla. The ones they destroyed must have run into King Kong. I also find that their delivery is slow and that their carriers are surly and unhelpful. Adam ++++ End of thread 28132 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28133 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65328 (thread 28133) ---- From: "Peterson, Samuel L." Date: 1999-07-23 19:04:00 Subject: Another Wife Gloat Gentle galoots, The wife called me from her cell phone at 11:00 this morning. Seems she was at a garage sale that was 90% tools. She had scanned the sale and deemed it worthy of a call. Bless her! I drove out, and picked up two nice oilers(One a John Deere), a complete buck knife sharpening set with two stones, a funky all metal screwdriver made by an airplane mfgr.(Half the handle flips down. ? ), a Millers Falls hacksaw w/rosewood handle(very old), One of those spiral screwdrivers, etc.. I did my best "Karl" and pumped him for info concerning hidden stashes(he was about 70), but I couldn't break him. I knew he was a tough case right when I walked in, because 1)he was witnessing to a couple of people and 2)the religious music could be heard down the street. Did I mention that he was also selling his cherry red Harley? Sam Peterson Columbia, MO ++++ End of thread 28133 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28134 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65329 (thread 28134) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 1999-07-23 19:04:00 Subject: What molding planes are for GGs- While the conventional wisdom might be that galoots only worry about acquiring tools, restoring tools, sitting around and talking about tools, or throwing tools at other tools, I do on occasion feel a perverse need to actually use tools for their intended purpose. In case there are others of you who believe this to be impossible behavior, I offer the following photographic proof, provided by my wife: http://www.calast.com/ken/Personal/makemold.jpg Yes, owning 30 or so molding planes is not sufficient (although it clearly does not need to be justified, as building up a working set of hollows and rounds is a worthwhile exercise for any galoot). In a moment of weakness, I convinced myself that making 50 feet of custom molding should be a trivial - or at least entertaining - effort. Having thus volunteered, I received some design assistance from the list (including Don McConnell, who generously copied some designs out of an old molding catalog for me) and figured out what I wanted to make. My son and I then prototyped it, showed it to SWMBO for signoff (took a few passes), and figured out how it could be done. While not complete, the two longest boards are now in place and I'm working on board number three. As part of this effort, I have reached a number of conclusions... * Any project that requires ten or more planes is self-justifying. * Planing 13 foot boards on a six foot bench can be challenging, but it can be done. * Taking a 13-foot shaving with a Stanley #78 duplex rabbet plane can also be done. Maybe only once, but it can be done. I kind of had to step back after that one, and say "Whoa, did I really do that?" * Selecting raw materials for straight grain is very, very important. * There has to be a good way to clamp a 1 x 6 "on-edge" to your bench. I don't use the molding planes as shown any more (I now do that with the board horizontal), but some of the rabbeting still needs to be done vertically. * While this is actually a really satisfying project, it leads you to a good understanding of why machines were invented to do this job. It is hard to be consistent, although I get better with each new board. Of course, now when I go to sell my house someday, I can advertise hand-crafted custom molding. Anyway, it's fun, and I highly recommend it. Besides, you have to acquire a bunch of tools before you start, which should be reason enough to embark on such a project. Ken, who really didn't need one more project Ken Greenberg IT #321; Blue Galoot #82 400 Los Gatos Blvd., Los Gatos, CA 95032 http://www.calast.com/ken/Personal/wood.htm ---- Start of Message 65335 (thread 28134) ---- From: "Ellis, Thomas R" Date: 1999-07-23 19:40:00 Subject: RE: What molding planes are for Checkout the Work Bench book. It shows something I've seen other places, but not tried, of using wedges at the end of the bench on the top. (But it isn't meant to handle 13' on a 6' bench.) Alternatively you should be able to fashion a "sticking board" which in this case is basically a board with a wide, deep plough. Put the board on edge in the plough and use wedges to hold it in place. You could probably put one at both ends of the bench, with the sticking boards clamped to the bench top. -Tom Ellis -----Original Message----- From: Ken Greenberg [mailto:ken@c...] Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 3:04 PM To: oldtools@l... Subject: What molding planes are for * There has to be a good way to clamp a 1 x 6 "on-edge" to your bench. I don't use the molding planes as shown any more (I now do that with the board horizontal), but some of the rabbeting still needs to be done vertically. ---- Start of Message 65359 (thread 28134) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-07-24 03:58:00 Subject: RE: What molding planes are for On the matter of: >* There has to be a good way to clamp a 1 x 6 "on-edge" to your bench. I >don't use the molding planes as shown any more (I now do that with the >board horizontal), but some of the rabbeting still needs to be done >vertically. This is one of several nearly-forgotten uses of old time handscrews, those awkward-looking clamps with long wooden blocks for jaws, and screws of wood (or metal, on newer Jorgensen models) going in from opposite directions. Use large ones (with jaws maybe 3x3"), to clamp the 1x6 vertically, and then use regular bar clamps or holdfasts to secure the handscrew to the top of the bench, horizontally. HTH, Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 65391 (thread 28134) ---- From: "Larry Williams" Date: 1999-07-25 01:06:00 Subject: Re: What molding planes are for Tom Holloway wrote: > This is one of several nearly-forgotten uses of old time >handscrews, ........ Use large ones (with jaws maybe 3x3"), to clamp the >1x6 vertically, and then use regular bar clamps or holdfasts to secure the >handscrew to the top of the bench, horizontally. I've use them in my tail vise for this for a long time. Just shim one of the clamp's jaws, I always do the inside one, and the other is free to move. I probably use the tail vise this was as much as I use the dogs. Larry Williams Who's celebrating the long overdue revival of a tailed demon. After nearly two months dealing warrantee repair and with Whirlpool/Roper customer service, I've been lost in a quandary:Can I be charged with murder for killing a refrigerator repairman who's already brain dead? ++++ End of thread 28134 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28135 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65330 (thread 28135) ---- From: "Bruce Thacker" Date: 1999-07-23 18:59:00 Subject: Adze Handles Galoots: I'm about ready to begin fashioning a new handle for my adze and I could use a few recommendations. I recall some mentioning of a few articles awhile back that adressed this but I don't have access to them. What I am most interested in are things like the correct length (at 5'-8" I'm fairly short) and handle curvature. Any assistance or guidelines would be appreciated. Bruce Thacker El Paso, Tx ++++ End of thread 28135 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28136 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65333 (thread 28136) ---- From: "John Quinn" Date: 1999-07-23 19:10:00 Subject: Questions: #113, Sargent 507 and Wood tennon cutter Dear GG's, I have the above mentioned items and not having used them and not being -- it goes w/o saying -- a collector, I'd like to offer them for sale. Trouble is, I don't know what they're worth. I thought I'd throw them out to the list first because (gush, toe in the dirt) I trust you people. The 507 is looks to be in fine shape. Has some trace rust; no pitting. Japan seems to be about 80-90%. The 113 is, as best as I can estimate, a type 9A. It has about 60-70% Japan and about the same amt. of chrome on the knob. Mechanism seems to work fine. The tennon cutter, I am not very familiar with. It was pretty scruffy when I got it but I threw it in the zap vat and I think it cleaned up pretty well. Hope I put it together right. If anyone is interested in any of these, I'd be glad to part with them on OT terms. If not, I'd still appreciate any estimates of what these things are going for lately. Thanks for listening. John Quinn San Rafael _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ++++ End of thread 28136 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28137 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65340 (thread 28137) ---- From: Jim Thoreson Date: 1999-07-23 20:04:00 Subject: Re: Questions: Sargent 507 At 07:17 PM 7/23/99, you wrote: >From: "John Quinn" >Subject: Questions: #113, Sargent 507 and Wood tennon cutter >Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:10:32 PDT > >Dear GG's, <> > The 507 is looks to be in fine shape. Has some trace rust; no pitting. >Japan seems to be about 80-90%. <> > If anyone is interested in any of these, I'd be glad to part with them >on OT terms. If not, I'd still appreciate any estimates of what these things >are going for lately. Thanks for listening. > >John Quinn >San Rafael Greetings John! Heckel's guide for Sargent planes puts the value from $150-300 if in G+ condition according to Find Tool Journals grading system. {Of course value is in the eye of the beholder ;^) } They were produced from 1913-1947. They had an East India Mahogony knob from 1913-1924, and a plain Mahogony knob from 1925-1947. Polished trimmings from 1913-1941, and nickel plated from 1942-1947. Hope this information helps you out. Would love to have one of these, but I'm not in the market and have some other prospects I'm working on instead. GOOD LUCK!!!! Sincerely, Jim Thoreson Interlochen, Mi. j_thor@email.com ++++ End of thread 28137 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28138 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65344 (thread 28138) ---- From: Phil Baumann Date: 1999-07-23 21:42:00 Subject: #19, reamer questions A couple recent tool acquisitions have raised questions. I picked up a #19 knuckle joint block plane at a flea market. It has the earlier of the two knuckle joint designs noted in Patrick's B&G. Anybody have any idea when Stanley changed the design? The second is more unusual (at least here in northwest Minnesota). It's a T-handled tapered reamer with an attached auger bit by The James Swan Co. Overall length is about 12". The reamer is a laminated cone about 6" long, tapering from 1/2" to 1 1/2". A short (2" or so) auger bit screws into the bottom of the reamer. I'd never seen a reamer like this. Can anyone tell me anything about it? Oh, yes. This summer, my bookmarks to old tools materials on the web finally got overwhelming. I've been trying to organize them (mostly URLs gathered from the list) in some sensible fashion. You can visit the Galoot's Reference at: http://classweb.moorhead.msus.edu/oldtools Additional links and materials are always welcome. Phil Baumann Moorhead, MN baumann@r... ---- Start of Message 65346 (thread 28138) ---- From: "Kelly Cox" Date: 1999-07-23 21:59:00 Subject: RE: #19, reamer questions Phil Bauman asked: > A couple recent tool acquisitions have raised questions. I > picked up a #19 > knuckle joint block plane at a flea market. It has the earlier of the two > knuckle joint designs noted in Patrick's B&G. Anybody have any idea when > Stanley changed the design? > Walter's book lists the patents for the #19, the last of which is "Bodmer& Burdick's 2/18/13 (redesigned knuckle joint cap)". Hope this helps! Kelly Cox Madison WI Who thinks he is prolly the only laser jock on the Porch... ---- Start of Message 65348 (thread 28138) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1999-07-23 23:26:00 Subject: Re: #19, reamer questions Phil Baumann asked: >The second is more unusual (at least here in northwest Minnesota). >It's a T-handled tapered reamer with an attached auger bit by >The James Swan Co. Overall length is about 12". The reamer is >a laminated cone about 6" long, tapering from 1/2" to 1 1/2". >A short (2" or so) auger bit screws into the bottom of the reamer. >I'd never seen a reamer like this. Can anyone tell me anything >about it? Checking my (reprint) 1920 James Swan Company Illustrated Catalog and Price List, it would appear you have one of their "Swan Bung-Hole Borers (Graduated) - No. 6020. About these, the catalog says: "The most perfect tool made for the purpose, boring a regular tapering round hole. The castings are steel, well tempered to cut any kind of wood and the first hole is bored by a Cook's Bit. Polished Blades. Figures clearly cut. Accurate measurements" The "figures" referred to are numerals on the tapered reamer indicating the diameter of the hole at different depths. Does yours have these markings? Incidentally, they came in three sizes: #1 cuts from 5/8 to 1 1/2 in. #2 cuts from 1 1/8 to 2 in. #3 cuts from 1 1/2 to 3 in. The corresponding borers are 5/8, 1 1/8, and 1 1/2 inches respectively. Hope this helps. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ++++ End of thread 28138 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28139 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65345 (thread 28139) ---- From: "Generations Furniture" Date: 1999-07-23 20:55:00 Subject: Information needed GG's Would anyone on the list have any thoughts on web sites, books, etc. that could answer questions about Witherby chisels or Millers Falls spokeshaves? I've posted a question each about the above with no response, so I guess the next step is personal research. Any suggestions will be appreciated. Bruce Z. ---- Start of Message 65466 (thread 28139) ---- From: Mark van Roojen Date: 1999-07-26 16:44:00 Subject: Re: Information needed Randy Roeder has a very nice MF page and Ralph Brendler has a page on sharpening the MF #! if I recall correctly. I have links on my webpage, listed in my sig, or now available (if the virtual webpage thing works correctly) at: www.mvr1.com Mark Mark van Roojen P.O. Box 83836 Department of Philosophy Lincoln, NE 68501-3836 University of Nebraska (402) 438-3724 (h) 1010 Oldfather Hall (402) 472-2428 (w) Lincoln, NE 68588-0321 (402) 472-0626 (fax) (msv@unlserve.unl.edu) Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/~mvr1/ -- Private replies: msv@unlserve.unl.edu Public replies: OLDTOOLS@listserv.law.cornell.edu To signoff or digest: listserv@listserv.law.cornell.edu Archive: http://mailmunch.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/archives/OLDTOOLS Quote sparingly. ---- Start of Message 65471 (thread 28139) ---- From: Mark van Roojen Date: 1999-07-26 18:34:00 Subject: Re: Information needed I seem to have sent the message below with codes in it that some readers can't read. (At least one person sent me a quoted copy of my message that seemed to indicate lots of garbage in it.) So I am sending it again. Sorry for the previous screwup. Randy Roeder has a very nice MF page and Ralph Brendler has a page on sharpening the MF #! if I recall correctly. I have links on my webpage, listed in my sig, or now available (if the virtual webpage thing works correctly) at: www.mvr1.com Mark Mark van Roojen P.O. Box 83836 Department of Philosophy Lincoln, NE 68501-3836 University of Nebraska (402) 438-3724 (h) 1010 Oldfather Hall (402) 472-2428 (w) Lincoln, NE 68588-0321 (402) 472-0626 (fax) (msv@u...) Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/~mvr1 / ++++ End of thread 28139 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28140 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65347 (thread 28140) ---- From: "John L. Odom" Date: 1999-07-23 22:52:00 Subject: Re: Recent project Gentle Galoots: I have been at teacher's in-service training this past week and one of my activities was learning how to put up a web page. (I know that most of the porch dwellers are computer gurus and that would be a simple task, not worthy of mention, but for me it was fun and new.) I know I need to do a lot of improvement, and the immages load way too slow but I don't yet know how to do the things I know need to be done. The result, still under construction, is at: http://www.vol.com/~jodom. The link at the lower left ( Art metal casting) is the one that I think you might enjoy. (Most of the others don't work yet.) The foundry work consumes both propane and electrons, but the pattern for the book ends was carved with Buck Bros carving tools and held in an Emmert vise while it was done. (Note O.T. content) All of the equipment except the furnace and the crucibles were made from locally available junk in a galoot spirit even if some electron utilizetion was involved. Enjoy! _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ---- Start of Message 65366 (thread 28140) ---- From: Loganftp@a... Date: 1999-07-24 05:10:00 Subject: Re: Recent project John wrote: > The result, still under construction, is at: > http://www.vol.com/~jodom. > The link at the lower left ( Art metal casting) is the one that I think you > might enjoy. (Most of the others don't work yet.) Nice job on the site John! Ever notice how bookends can look an awful lot like Norris infill bodys or even 386 jointer gage bodies? - hint - hint Dave ++++ End of thread 28140 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28141 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65349 (thread 28141) ---- From: David Tardiff Date: 1999-07-24 00:33:00 Subject: Re: bung hole augers For those of us who don't bung too many barrels, these tools are useful for making tapered leg joints for table, bench, or stool legs. Despite the short auger tips on mine, I pre-bore with a standard bit, using bevels to control the angle, then taper it with the bung auger. To make the matching leg, use the bung auger in a scrap blank, then add an old blade to make your own tapering rounder. 4 joints like this are employed for the legs on my knock-down shaving horse, made after watching Roy do one on his show - he showed me the technique. I ferment and store my beer in plastic, then glass bottles. However, if someone was too offer 5 gallon casks..... > >The second is more unusual (at least here in northwest Minnesota). > >It's a T-handled tapered reamer with an attached auger bit by > >The James Swan Co. Overall length is about 12". The reamer is > >a laminated cone about 6" long, tapering from 1/2" to 1 1/2". > >A short (2" or so) auger bit screws into the bottom of the reamer. > >I'd never seen a reamer like this. Can anyone tell me anything > >about it? > > Checking my (reprint) 1920 James Swan Company Illustrated Catalog > and Price List, it would appear you have one of their "Swan > Bung-Hole Borers (Graduated) - No. 6020. > > About these, the catalog says: > > "The most perfect tool made for the purpose, boring a regular > tapering round hole. The castings are steel, well tempered to cut > any kind of wood and the first hole is bored by a Cook's Bit. > Polished Blades. Figures clearly cut. Accurate measurements" > > The "figure ++++ End of thread 28141 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28142 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65350 (thread 28142) ---- From: Jim Colburn Date: 1999-07-24 00:29:00 Subject: Sawmilling again Hello- spent another 20 hours or so manning a sawmill while the list was down. Kinda fun-except for that hard work part. No one had any idea in mind how they wanted the wood cut, so they let me choose (the fools!!!). We have several really nice 3" and 4" thick planks of maple that are 9' long and 24"-30" wide!! No plans yet, but in a few years I may make a bench with a one piece maple top.... Even given the engine on the pit saw, and the use of chainsaws (pardon my language), we would have been at it a lot longer if I hadn't taken my axes. A limbing ax came in handy, but actually I think the broad ax got more use. VERY handy for trimming logs to fit through the saw. The adze gave yeoman service as well. We worked down a couple lengths of elm, and I am concerned about drying it-any tips from the porch? We spent almost two hours cutting up a "firewood grade" maple stump abo ut 4' long. The grain in one section was fantastic-about 6 curls to the inch. The sweep of the root section made it perfect for gunstocks. Someday, I am going to have the most magnificent jager-stutzen on the planet! With a little luck, I can finish my current project (a transitional longrifle) before the maple dries.... Meantime, if anyone in the eastern Nebraska area wants to buy some wood and watch it dry, I think my partner might be willing to part with some of his. We'll be cutting again in October if anyone wants to join in. Osage orange for sure-I just bought three trees (on the stump). Jim Colburn ++++ End of thread 28142 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28143 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65351 (thread 28143) ---- From: "George Langford, Sc.D." Date: 1999-07-24 00:37:00 Subject: An essay on the cleaning of (iron) planes Greetings, Fastidious Galoots ! Recently I received in the mail an example of the dealer's art which moved me so deeply that I felt compelled to write the following essay: > A lesson in how to clean planes: > > For the flat surfaces, find a small metal block (steel > being preferred) about 1/2 by 1 by 2 inches. Wrap a > piece of very fine sandpaper (400 grit carborundum being > best - available from Pep Boys' auto refinishing shelves > here in the East) around one large face and up the sides. > Put lubricating oil on the surface to be cleaned. This > keeps the abrasive from getting clogged. Rub with forward- > backward strokes (lengthwise of the plane) until the red > rust & bumps are gone and a uniform black patina remains. > Do not try to remove anything from the pits that may remain. > This technique works well on the blade, the cap iron and (with > care) the lever cap. > > The sole of the plane needs to be smooth and free of pits. > I place the abrasive paper on a hard flat surface; a piece > of plate glass is good for this. Start with a medium grade > of carborundum paper - 120 grit. Again, oil the plane and > the sandpaper; press down hard in the middle of the plane > and push it back & forth in a straight line. It helps a > lot to remove the blade and cap iron as well as the handles > for this task. If you don't make much progress, then start > over with coarser abrasive. Pits do a lot of harm on the > plane's sole because they have sharp edges and cut the wood. > They also accumulate chips, which drag on the wood, leaving > long lines. That's why a pitted sole detracts a lot from > the value of a plane. When the entire sole is smooth from > the coarsest grit, move up one step & do it again. The > second step takes very little time if you did the first > step well. Repeat through 320 grit. [The usual grit steps are: 60, 80, 120, 180, 240, 320, 400, 600; the 180 grit is an in-between size favored by metallographers] > > The sole of the plane is the only part of the plane that > should be cleaned to bare, shiny metal. > > The wood parts are best cleaned with paint thinner and 0000 > steel wool. Steel wool can also be used to remove rust from > the curved iron & steel parts of the plane. It takes a lot > of elbow grease to use the steel wool for everything, though. > On the wood, make your strokes with the grain as much as > possible. Do not remove too much of the original finish > unless more than half is already gone. A crazed finish can > be rejuvenated with tung oil, which magically heals the > cracks in the finish by getting inside and underneath them. > > Do not store even bits of paper that are wet with tung oil, > because they will catch fire. Burn them immediately or > open them out flat and place them far from anything > combustible on a cement or dirt floor. Do not place them > in the trash until the tung oil has dried. Even then, do > not store the trash indoors or near anything combustible. > In Philadelphia a 60 story office building was reduced to > ruin by one pile of linseed-oil-soaked rags. > > Avoid excessive use of the steel wool on brass parts. > Only rub until the dull grey dirt is gone - buyers like > dark brass more than shiny brass. > > Do not sharpen the blade. The buyer will want to do that. > > The above methods are only slightly more work than the > disk sander used by ... and they add to the value of the > plane rather than subtracting from it. Izzair anything to add or delete ? Best regards, George Langford amenex@a... ++++ End of thread 28143 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28144 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65355 (thread 28144) ---- From: Tom Corey Date: 1999-07-24 02:07:00 Subject: Re: Taggart's Head (was Administrivia) Others have writ: > >Gee - ya think that could happen? > > > >One of my favorite tools is my Unisaw... > > > Off with his head ! > I vote Bill the become the list "Not-So-Secret Santa". By the time he gets old stuff shipped to all of us the Unisaw will be all thats left. Tom Corey Anxiously awaiting the box from Califon ---- Start of Message 65415 (thread 28144) ---- From: "Bill Taggart" Date: 1999-07-26 01:07:00 Subject: Re: Taggart's Head (was Administrivia) >Others have writ: >> >Gee - ya think that could happen? >> > >> >One of my favorite tools is my Unisaw... >> >> >> Off with his head ! >> >I vote Bill the become the list "Not-So-Secret Santa". By the time he >gets old stuff shipped to all of us the Unisaw will be all thats left. > >Tom Corey >Anxiously awaiting the box from Califon All right! All right! I was (sorta) joking!! Just pass the spitoon and the Flitz, and I'll work on it for a whole week - no one will have to shine it up for a month when I'm done with it... Obligatory ---> ;-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) On the road in Coraopolis, PA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ++++ End of thread 28144 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28145 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65361 (thread 28145) ---- From: LLesniak@a... Date: 1999-07-24 04:27:00 Subject: WTB: MF Router Plane Cutters Friends: I recently purchased a Millers Falls #67 router in good condition but missing the cutters. The plane appears to be identical to a Stanley 71, and I am wondering if the cutters and edge guide (which is also missing) are interchangeable? Does anyone have a set of cutters and the edge guide for sale that will work with this plane? Thanks! Larry LLESNIAK@A... ++++ End of thread 28145 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28146 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65362 (thread 28146) ---- From: Tony Blanks Date: 1999-07-24 04:44:00 Subject: WTB: Chain Drills, Atkins, Preston Friends, This got lost in the server hiccup as far as I can tell: if anyone has it twice, my apologies 1. If any of you turn up any 4 1/2" long auger bits, please let me know. You may not know what you have found ;-) [but Chris Dunn, Scott Grandstaff, Karl S, Bill Taggart's mate and I will all know what you have!] 2. Anything affordable by Edw. Preston and Sons. 3. An Atkins saw with the damascened finish still visible (I can't believe it and would like to see it) 4. Chain drills: I still find these critters both fascinating and useful. Because of the postage costs to Tasmania I would prefer the smaller versions with chuck, but I am happy to consider offers. Regards, Tony B Hobart, Tasmania ---- Start of Message 65377 (thread 28146) ---- From: Jim Colburn Date: 1999-07-24 16:46:00 Subject: Re: WTB: Chain Drills, Atkins, Preston Hello- At 02:44 PM 7/24/99 +1000, you wrote: >1. If any of you turn up any 4 1/2" long auger bits, please let me know. >You may not know what you have found ;-) [but Chris Dunn, Scott >Grandstaff, Karl S, Bill Taggart's mate and I will all know what you have!] Mind you, I'm admitting nothing, but IF a guy did have a few sets of stubby little auger bits, what would he have? (aside from some scrap metal) Jim Colburn ++++ End of thread 28146 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28147 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65363 (thread 28147) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-24 11:43:00 Subject: Recycled table. Well this table was made with wood from pallets and crating. tropical woods for the most part. some brazilian cherry thrown in for good measure. some maple from a pallet and only new part was the walnut dowels. The tropical wood was impossible to plane by hand and tore out with machine too. even a little tearou t with a scraper. The wood was warped But only about 3/4" thick so I could not flatten it out and have much left. So I worked with it as is. the table top had some humps in it. I had to get out the AEG ROS to get it level. Man that thing is powerful. But kills my hands using it. The legs are like upside down "U" with the bottom of the U longer. two of these. I used biscuits to put the legs onto the cross piece to make the U I did not have a small mortise chisel yet "now I do" So the table has two cross piece that hold the two "U"s side by side. I cut the mortises by hand after I drilled a few holes to remove the excess. Then cut the tenons out of some pallet rock maple. I used a padok wedge in the through tenons. I used walnut dowels as a stretcher on the bottom of the legs. I used wedge in the ends as the dowels wer e a little loose. I scraped it all down and best as possible. I had one of the No set nail cutting japanese saws to cut off the access tenon's But the thing dug in and a couple of the cuts are concave. oops. The top was held on with walnut dowels drilled down through the top into the two cross pieces. The drill bit smoked cutting that tropical wood. I then took the top off and enongated the holes so the dowels could bend a bit with the top movement. I only glued them i n the bottom of the hole and in the top. Then used wedges on the ends. I am working on the finish right now. Really looks good. the wood has a real nice grain. nail holes and all. First time I have done the M&T's by hand or really even with a machine. I am gonna stick with them. No more biscuits for this kid. I got three new japanese chisels and man they cut that wood like butter. were a joy to use. I was shaving the maple tenons across the grain with so little effort. Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ++++ End of thread 28147 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28148 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65364 (thread 28148) ---- From: LLesniak@a... Date: 1999-07-24 04:46:00 Subject: Thanks for advice re:sawing and drying Thanks to all of you who responded with information and advice re:my recent question about sawing and drying lumber. The sawyer has come and gone (love that Wood Mizer with hydraulics! sorry if that invalidates my Galoot status!) and I ended up with 880 board feet of oak, maple, and cherry from just four trees. The sawyer also knew of a local kiln who could accept my load of lumber, air dry it for a period, then finish it off in a dehumidification kiln. Given this process, the lumber should be ready this fall and I should have material to carry me for quite some time. When the trees were cut, we kept all the limbs for firewood and the small branches were chipped for mulch which we also kept. So although the trees are gone, we made every effort to maximize their usefulness to us and I'm thrilled with the boards that we cut. On an O.T. content note, I couldn't wait to sample the wood so I took a thick rough chunk and tried my newly acquired scrub plane on it. Wonderful! Thanks again to all! Larry LLESNIAK@A... ---- Start of Message 65365 (thread 28148) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-24 12:09:00 Subject: Re: Thanks for advice re:sawing and drying On Sat, 24 Jul 1999 00:46:35 EDT, you wrote: Given this process, the lumber should be ready this >fall and I should have material to carry me for quite some time. When the >trees were cut, we kept all the limbs for firewood and the small branches >were chipped for mulch which we also kept. So although the trees are gone, >we made every effort to maximize their usefulness to us and I'm thrilled with >the boards that we cut. you need to learn to Do BBQ so you can use those branches to make great food. Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ++++ End of thread 28148 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28149 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65367 (thread 28149) ---- From: Tony Blanks Date: 1999-07-24 09:57:00 Subject: Re: Elm (was Sawmilling again) Jim Colburn asks in passing, >We worked down a couple lengths of elm, and I am concerned about drying >it-any tips from the porch? A couple of things: I have references here to the sawing of elm in the UK before the days of "motorised" pit saws which claim that the accepted way of dealing with elm was to leave it as a log, chocked up off the ground for a couple of years to settle down before sawing, as this supposedly helped to reduce the tendency of the sawn boards to warp in the seasoning stack. I don't know if it works, and its almost certainly too late for you to do that Jim, but as to what not to do, I can speak from hard and bitter experience. In my early post university days while working as a labourer and waiting for a professional level job to come along I worked in a landscaping crew employed by the state government. One of the jobs which fell to us was the removal of a huge English Elm on a small piece of state owned land. Like a lot of street elms in Hobart this one had a short but enormous bole and perhaps 7 or 8 semi-erect branches. If you hold up your cupped hand with the fingers reaching for the sky you will have the general idea. Lots of buildings around and no place to bring it down in one piece even if one of us had been silly enough to try. I still don't know if the Director of the department we worked for realised what he had asked us to do, or didn't care, or was just trying to save the cost of paying someone who really knew what they were doing. Looking back with the benefit of 25 years more learning, what we all should have done was refused to have anything to do with the job and made it someone else's problem, but we were younger, keener and a filled with the "can-do spirit". A dangerous combination as it turned out. We finished up hiring the largest slewing crane in Hobart at that time, setting it up on the street beside the tree. The crane jib reached 80' and the branches were taller than that. We rigged a rope sling under the hook, along with a long length of chain and a length of climbing rope. Then someone sat in the sling and was hoisted to the highest possible solid fork on each of the main branches, climbed out of the loop into the fork, wrapped the chain around the fork and rapelled down to the ground. The crane then took the weight and we cut through the base of the branch and laid it down in the street to buck up and load on a truck to go to the dump. No worries about Occupational Health and Safety in those days, and because at that time I was still a rock climber I got the job of riding the hook. I have _never_ been so scared as the first time I left the ground hanging in thin air under the hook, and I resolved that if this tree didn't kill me, and I didn't strangle the crane driver when I got back to earth, I was going to have some boards out of it. One of the other guys in the crew had a brother-in-law who ran a small bush mill. Surprisingly, in a very long day no-one got hurt and all surrounding buildings survived undamaged. We kept the best and largest sections of the lower branches as well as two big lengths from the butt and trucked them out to the mill, where they were sawn and kept for us to collect. That took a little longer than expected, and when I got out there I found that the boards had been stacked un-stickered and un-weighted. You can do that with some eucalypts (for a little while anyway) but that elm tree wasn't going to put up with it. I sorted out the boards which weren't already warped cupped and twisted beyond salvation, took them home and racked them out with lots of cement blocks on top and a couple of sheets of corrugated iron over the whole lot to keep off the rain. Thats where I made my second mistake though it took 3 years to find out. I used green racking sticks, and the mould and fungii grew beautifully wherever the boards lay on the sticks. I finished up with a fair amount of elm which consisted of a sound 18" length, followed by a rotten 2 - 3", followed by another sound 18" length and so on. Sadly I wasn't into making the seats of chairs, and this stuff was impossible to split so I couldn't even use it to light a fire. But, none of the ends of the boards split, even though they weren't greased or painted nor had strips nailed over the ends. >From this experience I learnt the following: 1. Elm boards are nice, but have as little to do with standing elm trees as is possible. 2. If you ignore 1, don't ever admit to being a rock climber. An accountant or even a lawyer would have been better. 3. Don't saw elm branches: too much reaction wood which will jump around like crazy, both in the mill and in the stack. Tricky in our case since the tree was almost all branch wood. 4. If you ignore that advice then get it stickered and stacked _immediately_ it is sawn. 5. Weight it down with everything you can lay your hands on (Bill's Unisaw would be a good place to start) and when you think you have enough, double it. 6. Use seasoned racking sticks. 7. Unless the heap is in the blazing sun the board ends probably won't split. 8. See 1 If you got this far, then that should be enough to be going on with ;-) Regards, Tony B Hobart, Tasmania Tony B Hobart, Tasmania Still looking for dowelling auger bits ---- Start of Message 65378 (thread 28149) ---- From: Jim Colburn Date: 1999-07-24 16:47:00 Subject: Re: Elm (was Sawmilling again) Hello- At 07:57 PM 7/24/99 +1000, you wrote: >>We worked down a couple lengths of elm, and I am concerned about drying >>it-any tips from the porch? >I have references here to the sawing of elm in the UK before the days of >"motorised" pit saws which claim that the accepted way of dealing with elm >was to leave it as a log, chocked up off the ground for a couple of years >to settle down before sawing, as this supposedly helped to reduce the >tendency of the sawn boards to warp in the seasoning stack. I don't know >if it works, and its almost certainly too late for you to do that Jim, I have another 10' log of elm I will try this with. We can stick it in a barn for a couple years and see what happens. Thanks for the tip. >1. Elm boards are nice, but have as little to do with standing elm trees as >is possible. I am a carpenter, a cabinetmaker, and a timber framer. I do not do the dirty work of chopping down trees if I can avoid it! >2. If you ignore 1, don't ever admit to being a rock climber. An >accountant or even a lawyer would have been better. I may be in trouble here. My partners know I skydive... >3. Don't saw elm branches: too much reaction wood which will jump around >like crazy, both in the mill and in the stack. Tricky in our case since the >tree was almost all branch wood. Again, that is good to know-I'd hate to have a carefully stickered stac k of firewood! >5. Weight it down with everything you can lay your hands on (Bill's Unisaw >would be a good place to start) and when you think you have enough, double it. Ours is mostly under about 300 bd ft of oak. Should be OK, right? Rig ht??? >6. Use seasoned racking sticks. That is a pretty good idea all the time. I have some very nice walnut with black lines across it every 18"... Thanks Tony Jim Colburn ++++ End of thread 28149 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28150 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65368 (thread 28150) ---- From: "Scott E. Post" Date: 1999-07-24 11:17:00 Subject: Quick drying wood I recently picked up some thick beech from a fellow list member for making planes. The wood was cut about a month ago and has been stickered outside until now. It's now in my shop where I'll just let the bulk of it air dry for the next few years. However, I'd like to use some of it sooner. A coworker of mine who has a kiln didn't think his kiln was capable of drying 3-1/2" to 4" stock. I'm not sure why and I didn't really pursue it. He suggested sticking it up in my attic with a fan going. He felt that it would reach a stable moisture content in 3 or 4 months up there. It does get plenty hot up there, but humidity right now is hovering above 90% in my area. I'm wondering if it wouldn't dry faster in my cooler, yet dehumidified shop with a fan blowing over it. A third possibility is a microwave. I've heard of turners doing it but since this wood is for plane bodies I'm wondering how microwaving effects the wood's long term stability. So I've got "put it in attic", "dry it in dehumidified shop", and "microwave it" as possibilities. Any experienced wood driers out there have any thoughts? I'd also appreciate pointers to books on the subject. ---- Start of Message 65375 (thread 28150) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-24 23:21:00 Subject: Re: Quick drying wood >A third possibility is a microwave. I've heard of turners doing it but >since this wood is for plane bodies I'm wondering how microwaving effects >the wood's long term stability. > >So I've got "put it in attic", "dry it in dehumidified shop", and >"microwave it" as possibilities. Any experienced wood driers out there >have any thoughts? I'd also appreciate pointers to books on the subject. you are just going to have to wait. you can't afford to make the boards unstable. nothing like having to chuck a plane cause it warped later on. Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ---- Start of Message 65379 (thread 28150) ---- From: Jim Colburn Date: 1999-07-24 16:45:00 Subject: Re: Quick drying wood Hello- At 06:17 AM 7/24/99 -0500, you wrote: > >I recently picked up some thick beech from a fellow list member for making >planes. > >However, I'd like to use some of it sooner. A coworker of mine who has >a kiln didn't think his kiln was capable of drying 3-1/2" to 4" stock. >I'm not sure why and I didn't really pursue it. He suggested sticking >it up in my attic with a fan going. I haven't had much luck with this method, and I really don't know why. >A third possibility is a microwave. I've heard of turners doing it but >since this wood is for plane bodies I'm wondering how microwaving effects >the wood's long term stability. I've dried in the microwave a number of times, but never anything as th ick as 3". The usual procedure I use is to rough turn a bowl leaving walls ca. 1-1 1/2" then dry on a 30 seconds on/60 seconds off (door open) cycle. I haven't really noticed any real effect on stability so far. I have done some tests drying 1/2" thick oak in the microwave on the same cycle-it seems as stable as oak ever is. > >So I've got "put it in attic", "dry it in dehumidified shop", and >"microwave it" as possibilities. Any experienced wood driers out there >have any thoughts? Most of my wood winds up drying in a barn for a few years. Usually, th ere is enough wood dry that I can just rotate, or trade wet stock for dry stock. Some of it, however, gets different treatment. When we saw, I am right there watching for grain and color. The stuff I like best goes right into my truck. These selected pieces of wood get special treatment, as befits their status as future mortgage payments and gifts for special people. My last load of such wood was about 100 board feet of assorted spalted and curly maple, oak spalted in technicolor, two inch elm with spiraling grain, mulberry with blue mineralization streaks, 20" wide curly ash, and some burls that will be carved into treen. I work on one piece at a time as I prep these for drying. Each piece i s examined for drying checks, and trimmed to remove these. Immediately after trimming an end, I dust it off with a stiff brush and coat the end grain completely with Elmer's carpenters' glue. When both ends are done, it goes into a stickered pile in my shop. After two or three days in my shop, I move the pile. Again, each piece is inspected, and I'm pretty brutal about sorting out anything that isn't up to snuff. The pile is re-stickered and stacked on my (small) enclosed porch, out of direct sun. With a window open for ventilation, it usually reaches about 95-105 degrees for twelve hours a day during the summer. Basically, the porch functions as a solar kiln. We are in the process of converting an old outbuilding into a solar kil n, but I don't expect to have results for a few months. Jim Colburn ---- Start of Message 65381 (thread 28150) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1999-07-24 18:04:00 Subject: Re: Quick drying wood Steve Knight wrote: In response to Scott Post's question concerning speeding up the drying of beech for planemaking, >you are just going to have to wait. you can't afford to make the boards >unstable. nothing like having to chuck a plane cause it warped later on. In general, I'm very much in favor of taking the careful/slow air drying route for material in which stability is an issue. However, experience tells me it isn't quite that simple. Some of the most dramatic wood movement I've experienced is in working century+ old air-dried material. Apparently that material had significant internal stresses. Which leads me to think that careful selection (straight-grain, clear, non-reaction wood) is probably *at least* as important as proper drying. I think it possible that Scott may be able to speed up the drying process with the use of steaming (ala the boiling/steaming/drying discussion on the list a few months back) without unduly de-stabilising the material -- if it's been carefully selected to begin with. I'd written him privately (not wishing to repeat info from Hasluck I'd somewhat recently posted to the list) about this, and I believe an experiment is underway as we speak. (Hope Scott doesn't mind my going "public" with this.) FWIW, Ken Roberts in his _Wooden Planes in 19th Century America_, Volume II, includes the following by W. J. Armour as originally published in _Work_, January 15, 1898: "The Jack Plane. - The wood slected should be cut from a centre plank of beech as near to the bark as can be, then it is put into a tank and steamed for about twenty-four hours, which drives out the sap and turns the wood from white to a reddish colour; this is done to assist the drying, and the sap being out of the wood it is not liable to cast." Of course, Armour then goes on to say it shouldn't be used before it is three years old. :-) Again, advice I would/do follow when possible. And since this is now public, I hope Scott will report any results -- most especially if it turns out to have been ill advised. Maybe we can all learn from his experience. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 65386 (thread 28150) ---- From: "Scott E. Post" Date: 1999-07-24 20:57:00 Subject: Re: Quick drying wood > Don McConnell wrote: > > Steve Knight wrote: > > >you are just going to have to wait. you can't afford to make the boards > >unstable. nothing like having to chuck a plane cause it warped later on. > > I think it possible that Scott may be able to speed up the drying > process with the use of steaming (ala the boiling/steaming/drying > discussion on the list a few months back) without unduly > de-stabilising the material -- if it's been carefully selected to > begin with. I'd written him privately (not wishing to repeat info > from Hasluck I'd somewhat recently posted to the list) about this, > and I believe an experiment is underway as we speak. Yep, big things are afoot at the Post Skunkworks today. This morning I drilled a pattern of holes in the bottom of a metal bucket that is *just* big enough for the beech blank I have slated for a filletster. This bucket, in turn, fits quite nicely over one of my wife's large saucepans (which gets filled with water). The whole shebang just barely fits on the stove, clearing the overhead microwave by about 1/4". I steamed the blank for 4 hours this morning then just turned the stove off and let it cool slowly for about 3 hours. Just 15 minutes ago I removed the blank. There was a very slight amount of end checking, but it wasn't deep and won't be a problem if it doesn't continue. Since there was a bit of checking I decided to coat the ends in latex paint. It's now sitting out in my garage, were it will remain for a few days, then it either goes up to the very hot attic or down to the cooler, but dehumidified, basement. The one problem with this little excercise is in determining when the wood is dry. A bathroom scale just isn't accurate enough to measure 1-2% changes in moisture content. I'm off to the Farm & Fleet tonight to get the supplies I need to steam larger blanks for jointer and jack planes so while I'm at it I'll try to find a more accurate scale. My plan is to steam a couple more blanks in a bit more scientific manner. I'll measure their weight before steaming, after steaming, then a couple times a week until the weight stabilizes. If the weight after a few weeks is lower than the weight before steaming then I'll have some confidence that steaming actually does decrease drying time. I'll also test the dry basement vs. hot, humid attic as a drying location. ---- Start of Message 65388 (thread 28150) ---- From: groehm@e... (Geoff Roehm) Date: 1999-07-24 23:28:00 Subject: Re: Quick drying wood Scott E. Post wrote: I recently picked up some thick beech from a fellow list member for making planes. The wood was cut about a month ago and has been stickered outside until now. It's now in my shop where I'll just let the bulk of it air dry for the next few years. However, I'd like to use some of it sooner. Check this out: http://wwwoodcarver.com/WWWEzine/Vol2Issue4/LynnDiel/LynnDiel.html I ran into a luthier at last years NAMM show who claimed to have dried curly maple for arched top guitars in a very short time using a similar method. It seems in a vacuum kiln, wood migrates from the _inside_ to the outside, minimizing internal stresses and checking. I am currently working on a small vacuum kiln and will post progress. -Geoff Roehm http://personalweb.edge.net/~groehm/ ---- Start of Message 65428 (thread 28150) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-07-26 05:34:00 Subject: RE: Quick drying wood ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Scott E. ~ Post ~ Sent: Saturday, July 24, 1999 12:18 PM ~ To: Oldtools listserv ~ Subject: Quick drying wood ~ ~ A third possibility is a microwave. I've heard of turners ~ doing it but ~ since this wood is for plane bodies I'm wondering how ~ microwaving effects ~ the wood's long term stability. No experienced wood dryer, I, but I believe that turners do this to work that has already been roughed out, and is therefore relatively thin sectioned. They leave it thick enough for the inevitable distortion to be turned out. I suppose that if the blanks were made generously oversized and the throats roughly cut, their cores would have greater access to the air, thus somewhat accelerating drying . However, I suspect that there is no easy way out. Jeff ++++ End of thread 28150 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28151 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65369 (thread 28151) ---- From: John Lederer Date: 1999-07-24 12:15:00 Subject: Crabapple? Would crabapple be pretty much the same in wood qualities as apple? Regards, John Lederer ---- Start of Message 65370 (thread 28151) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1999-07-24 12:54:00 Subject: Re: Crabapple? John Lederer asked: >Would crabapple be pretty much the same in wood qualities as apple? >From Albert Constantine, Jr.'s _Know Your Woods_, c. 1959: "CRAB APPLE malus pumila It is known as Crab, Crab Tree and Garland Tree. This tree is native to Southeastern Europe and Central Asia, usually growing wild individually, and it has become naturalized in the northeastern part of North America. It is a small tree, 20 to 30 ft. in height and 10 to 12 in. in diameter. The wood is hard, heavy, pinkish to grayish-brown in color, somewhat like the appearance of pearwood but with more color variation, and heavier and harder. It is a fairly difficult wood to work with, has a dulling effect on tools, but is unusually fine for turning and for carving because of the even texture. It holds its place well when manufactured. Formerly it was one of the most popular woods for handles of handsaws and it is also used for the heads of wooden mallets. ... " Various cultivars of this have been developed, primarily for ornamental purposes, so the above might best be viewed with some caution. I hadn't seen this info regarding saw handles before. Any idea, Erv (or anyone else), as to how many of the "applewood" saw handles may, in fact, be crab apple? Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ++++ End of thread 28151 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28152 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65373 (thread 28152) ---- From: "John L. Odom" Date: 1999-07-24 16:05:00 Subject: Re: My foundry Gentle Galoots- Dave, and others, in resoponse to the posting of my report on the art foundry project have hinted at the making of castings for "new old" tools or even replacement parts for old tools. I am very open to this and think it would be fun. The following limitations must be considered: 1. I can cast aluminum, Bronze and other non-ferrous metals. Iron is not an option. 2. Maximum size of casting with gates and sprues is 10lb Aluminum or 30lb of brass or bronze. 3. I don't have the knowledge of the tools or the time to make the patterns. If any galoots have ideas for the use of this facility, or even patterns already made, within the above limits let me hear from you. John, in Ooltewah, TN _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ---- Start of Message 65374 (thread 28152) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-24 23:23:00 Subject: Re: My foundry On Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:05:35 PDT, you wrote: >Gentle Galoots- > >Dave, and others, in resoponse to the posting of my report on the art >foundry project have hinted at the making of castings for "new old" tools or >even replacement parts for old tools. > >I am very open to this and think it would be fun. > >The following limitations must be considered: > >1. I can cast aluminum, Bronze and other non-ferrous metals. > Iron is not an option. > >2. Maximum size of casting with gates and sprues is > 10lb Aluminum or 30lb of brass or bronze. > >3. I don't have the knowledge of the tools or the time to make the >patterns. > >If any galoots have ideas for the use of this facility, or even patterns >already made, within the above limits let me hear from you. > this would be great to make some bronze U channel for planes I have been after. Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ---- Start of Message 65432 (thread 28152) ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1999-07-26 08:00:00 Subject: Re: My foundry John considers becoming a founder foundry member... (snip) > 1. I can cast aluminum, Bronze and other non-ferrous metals. > Iron is not an option. > > 2. Maximum size of casting with gates and sprues is > 10lb Aluminum or 30lb of brass or bronze. > If any galoots have ideas for the use of this facility, or even patterns > already made, within the above limits let me hear from you. Hmm, its a small step for mankind, but a long, long way from here, however, if casting the lever caps for dovetailed planes is a possibility (relatively small and easy to transport) then I'll make up patterns. Similarly, the fancy lever cap for the legendary Record 73 style plane is a fabrication that only casting can really supply. Richard Wilson in Worcestershire.. ---- Start of Message 65451 (thread 28152) ---- From: Steve Jones Date: 1999-07-26 11:51:00 Subject: Re: My foundry >John considers becoming a founder foundry member... >> 1. I can cast aluminum, Bronze and other non-ferrous metals. >> Iron is not an option. >> >> 2. Maximum size of casting with gates and sprues is >> 10lb Aluminum or 30lb of brass or bronze. >> If any galoots have ideas for the use of this facility, or even patterns >> already made, within the above limits let me hear from you. How 'bout depth stops for moving filletsters and ploughs, perhaps using existing parts for patterns? Steve Jones Kokomo IN, thinking of Scott's upcoming planemaking class with Tod Herli ++++ End of thread 28152 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28153 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65376 (thread 28153) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-24 23:27:00 Subject: Steel U channel for infill's Well I did not have much luck on finding it. one machinist offered to bend some flat stock for me. this may work well but not sure. I found one or two places that carry precision machined U channel the cheapest was 8.39 a inch. way to much. Went to a steel yard yesterday and I got a good Idea from the guy that works there. use square stock and cut the top off. This should work great. and would be cheep even if you have to pay someone to do the cutting for you. Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ---- Start of Message 65427 (thread 28153) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-07-26 05:34:00 Subject: RE: Steel U channel for infill's ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Steve ~ Knight ~ Sent: Saturday, July 24, 1999 5:28 PM ~ To: oldtools@l... ~ Subject: Steel U channel for infill's ~ ~ ~ Well I did not have much luck on finding it. one machinist ~ offered to bend some ~ flat stock for me. this may work well but not sure. I found ~ one or two places ~ that carry precision machined U channel the cheapest was ~ 8.39 a inch. way to ~ much. Went to a steel yard yesterday and I got a good Idea ~ from the guy that ~ works there. use square stock and cut the top off. This ~ should work great. and ~ would be cheep even if you have to pay someone to do the ~ cutting for you. Possibility of subsequent distortion as internal stresses become unbalanced? Jeff ---- Start of Message 65433 (thread 28153) ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1999-07-26 08:05:00 Subject: Re: Steel U channel for infill's Steve Knight is still searching for steel channel > Well I did not have much luck on finding it. one machinist offered to bend some > flat stock for me. this may work well but not sure. I found one or two places > that carry precision machined U channel the cheapest was 8.39 a inch. way to > much. Went to a steel yard yesterday and I got a good Idea from the guy that The well accepted standard is of course, the double, cold formed dovetail. this enables you to profile cut the sides to something aesthetically pleasing (your choice, seeing as you don't like previous patterns) then cold joint the sole. I suspect that any hot or cold drawn section will have rounded corners, leaving a general outline something like the Swiss made Ralli (sp) planes which are being hawked around at shows etc. The biggest problem area, however you form the U, will be in forming the mouth, and ensuring accurate alignment of the bed to it. Good luck - keep us informed on progress. Richard Wilson also unemployed in Worcestershire.. ---- Start of Message 65456 (thread 28153) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-26 21:44:00 Subject: Re: Steel U channel for infill's On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:05:59 +0000, you wrote: >I suspect that any hot or cold drawn section will have rounded corners, >leaving a general outline something like the Swiss made Ralli (sp) >planes which are being hawked around at shows etc. > >The biggest problem area, however you form the U, will be in forming >the mouth, and ensuring accurate alignment of the bed to it. > > >Good luck - keep us informed on progress. with the hassle and the mouth problems and my lack of tools for metal working and the expense. I think I will just stick to woodies. since using the oak my planes are very easy to move through wood. and I can make them very fast so if they get tweaked because of wood movement I can make another. I have been able to plane most of my woods so I am happy. Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ++++ End of thread 28153 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28154 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65380 (thread 28154) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-07-24 17:10:00 Subject: Galoot Pattern Baldness This is by way of a minor epiphany - is that an epiphette? My wife, noticing that my left arm was completely bald, pointed out that in most middle aged men, hair loss starts on the scalp and that perhaps I ought to "see someone" about this. I explained that it ain't nothin' just the radiation here in Los Alamos but this did not seem to have the desireded reassuring effect. The truth is that I have discovered honing. Following my whine in this list that SS upto 2000 grit didn't quite get to razor sharpness, Tom Corey suggested that I look into hones at Hand American (www.handamerican.com). After chatting with Keith deGrau ( what a nice guy! ) I bought his hone making kit for about $37 and now I am really having fun. The secret weapon is the green chromium oxide which is 10,000 grit (does anyone know how many microns this is ?). This is applied to the smooth side of a piece of leather which has been glued to a flat wooden base and the sharp blade is stropped. The result after just a few strokes is a blade that is shaving sharp every time. Shaving sharp was an iffy thing with my waterstones involving careful tedious honing and muttered prayers to the tool gods. With hones I get there quickly and easily every time. I have found that with just three grits, 320, 800 and then chromium oxide I can very quickly raise a burr, polish out the scratches and hone to razor sharpness. There is no water, no struggling to keep the bevel of narrow edges flat against the abrasive and the cutting action is very quick. Pressure is light and the tool can be held with one hand. Most of the time, to restore a less than perfect edge, I just go from 800 to the chromium. Being able to sharpen tools almost effortlessly means that my tools spend more time near their peak sharpness and my work is better and more enjoyable. I think that part of the reason why honing is easier is that the soft leather conforms to the bevel and so that small imperfections in the blade shape or inaccuracy in the way one holds the bevel against the abrasive surface dont matter and the whole blade gets polished. This is especially usefull for very small edges or for shaped edges. Of course the corollary to this is that there is danger of rounding the bevel, especially with coarser grits. I think an occasional touch up with SS using a honing guide to true up the bevel would be appropriate. Hones are very easy to make, just a piece of leather glued onto some flat stable wood. One can even use just the surface of a piece of soft wood - though I havent tried this yet. Lee, in his sharpening book, recommends this as a way of dealing with gouges and the like. I am having fun with the kit which includes a large selection of grits and several pieces of leather. However, anyone wishing to just try this out might buy a jar of the chromium oxide and a couple of pieces of leather from Keith. This ought to set him back about $10. Only very small amounts of the powder are used. A 2 oz jar costs $6 and ought to last for years. Adam ---- Start of Message 65382 (thread 28154) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-25 01:47:00 Subject: Re: Galoot Pattern Baldness On Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:10:55 -0600, you wrote: >The secret weapon is the green chromium oxide which is 10,000 grit (does >anyone know how many microns this is ?). This is applied to the smooth >side of a piece of leather which has been glued to a flat wooden base and >the sharp blade is stropped. The result after just a few strokes is a >blade that is shaving sharp every time. Shaving sharp was an iffy thing >with my waterstones involving careful tedious honing and muttered prayers >to the tool gods. With hones I get there quickly and easily every time. I think part of the problem is the steel used in the tools. and how easy they are to hold to sharpen. My japanese tools sharpen very fast so there is less time to goof up. I would think other laminated steel would sharpen as fast. My hock irons are slower but short enough it is easy to keep the angle. My marples and such are harder to get a good edge on because they are harder to hold. the same with longer plane irons. >I have found that with just three grits, 320, 800 and then chromium oxide I >can very quickly raise a burr, polish out the scratches and hone to razor >sharpness. There is no water, no struggling to keep the bevel of narrow >edges flat against the abrasive and the cutting action is very quick. >Pressure is light and the tool can be held with one hand. Most of the time, >to restore a less than perfect edge, I just go from 800 to the chromium. >Being able to sharpen tools almost effortlessly means that my tools spend >more time near their peak sharpness and my work is better and more enjoyable. The problem with using a strop is it puts a microbevel on the edge. so when it comes time to sharpen your tools on the stone it is far more work to get the edge back to flat again. I have tried stropping my japanese tools and they seem to get duller. I am not sure why it may be do to that they can achieve the very fine edge without rollover as they are usually rc 65-66 and the steel is high quality. >Of course the corollary to this is that there is danger of rounding the >bevel, especially with coarser grits. I think an occasional touch up with >SS using a honing guide to true up the bevel would be appropriate. they will always round over the edge. just because the leather conforms to the edge. I have been using the strop on my hock irons But then it is far more work on the stone to get a burr. so I think I will give it up. Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ---- Start of Message 65396 (thread 28154) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-07-25 02:38:00 Subject: Re: Galoot Pattern Baldness Try Herb's Yellowstone. It's even better than chromium oxide... Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@n... http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den ----- Original Message ----- From: Adam Whiteson To: Sent: Sunday, 25 July 1999 03:10 Subject: Galoot Pattern Baldness > > The secret weapon is the green chromium oxide which is 10,000 grit (does > anyone know how many microns this is ?). This is applied to the smooth > side of a piece of leather which has been glued to a flat wooden base and > the sharp blade is stropped. The result after just a few strokes is a > blade that is shaving sharp every time. Shaving sharp was an iffy thing > with my waterstones involving careful tedious honing and muttered prayers > to the tool gods. With hones I get there quickly and easily every time. ---- Start of Message 65397 (thread 28154) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-07-25 03:38:00 Subject: Re: Galoot Pattern Baldness >> t 12:38 PM 7/25/99 +1000, Nuno Souto wrote: >Try Herb's Yellowstone. It's even better than >chromium oxide... > I'd love to! Does anyone know of a source for Herb's Yellowstone in the N. Hemisphere? The only web site I could find was in New S. Wales. Adam ---- Start of Message 65429 (thread 28154) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-07-26 05:36:00 Subject: RE: Galoot Pattern Baldness ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Adam ~ Whiteson ~ Sent: Saturday, July 24, 1999 6:11 PM ~ To: oldtools@l... ~ Subject: Galoot Pattern Baldness ~ Hones are very easy to make, just a piece of leather glued ~ onto some flat ~ stable wood. Sorry to quibble, but this is a strop. A hone is a whetstone. (Concise Oxford English Dictionary). Jeff ---- Start of Message 65434 (thread 28154) ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1999-07-26 08:14:00 Subject: Re: Galoot Pattern Baldness Jeff's in a strop over hones (English colloquiallism's Paddy, - may not travel well) Jeff Gorman wrote: > ~ Hones are very easy to make, just a piece of leather glued > ~ onto some flat > ~ stable wood. > > Sorry to quibble, but this is a strop. > > A hone is a whetstone. (Concise Oxford English Dictionary). Which reminds me of a question I meant to ask. In the midst of my recent sharpening fest, I came across a surprising number of gouges, and had redourse to a new old scythe stone for hand restoring the in-cannel bevel angles. I endd up in an undignified way with teh stone held in the bench vise, dribbling the odd drib of water onto it, and rubbing the bevel back and forth, finishing with a finer, hand held, oil lubricated slip. Can someone explain how and with what I should be creating the initial bevel? Thanks Richard Yorkshireman in Worcestershire. proving I got a sharp edge by carving finger notches in the sliding lids of chisel trays. ---- Start of Message 65438 (thread 28154) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-07-26 09:51:00 Subject: Re: Galoot Pattern Baldness Understand you're talking carving chisels? I shape mine with a piece of wood cut to the approximate profile, and coated with good old SS material: wet-and-dry. Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@n... http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Wilson Sent: Monday, 26 July 1999 18:14 Subject: Re: Galoot Pattern Baldness > > Can someone explain how and with what I should be > creating the initial bevel? > > ---- Start of Message 65464 (thread 28154) ---- From: MALDK@a... Date: 1999-07-26 16:11:00 Subject: Re: Galoot Pattern Baldness THE source for Herb's Yellowstone Herb Dunkle 1041 Utterback Road Great Falls , Virginia, 22066 703-450-5985. Nore that this is an old address, I have been a satisfied user for some years. NO other commection etc, etc. Malcolm Dick ---- Start of Message 65528 (thread 28154) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-07-27 06:16:00 Subject: RE: Galoot Pattern Baldness ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: Richard Wilson [mailto:arw@T...] ~ Sent: Monday, July 26, 1999 9:14 AM ~ To: Jeff@m... ~ Cc: adamwhiteson@m...; oldtools@l... ~ Subject: Re: Galoot Pattern Baldness ~ ~ Which reminds me of a question I meant to ask. ~ In the midst of my recent sharpening fest, I came across a ~ surprising number of gouges, and had redourse to a new old ~ scythe stone for hand restoring the in-cannel bevel angles. ~ ~ I endd up in an undignified way with teh stone held in the ~ bench vise, dribbling the odd drib of water onto it, and ~ rubbing the bevel back and forth, finishing with a finer, ~ hand held, oil lubricated slip. ~ ~ Can someone explain how and with what I should be ~ creating the initial bevel? I don't know how it is done by gouge manufacturers, but Denford's sharpedge grinder (ie a horizontally mounted wheel) has an auxilliary shaft on which a conical stone is mounted. This made grinding marks that ran the 'wrong' way. Better than nothing, I never found it terribly satisfactory. Presumably the best way is on the periphery of a profiled wheel, but would this not require a large collection of wheels, or frequent re-profiling? Jeff ++++ End of thread 28154 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28155 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65383 (thread 28155) ---- From: stevek@p... (Steve Knight) Date: 1999-07-25 03:16:00 Subject: I am in Love My latest wood plane works great. It shaves figured maple like butter. I change d things a little. first I used red maple. and second I have the iron wedged on both edges instead of with a bar and a wedge. it is so easy to move on the wood I can't believe it. and it planes so very well. I made a jack plane out of the same oak. it is very easy to move in the wood too. far easier then other planes I have made. Records and tapes turned into cd's Save your vinyl and still enjoy it Visit www.pacifier.com/~stevek/ for details. ++++ End of thread 28155 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28156 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65385 (thread 28156) ---- From: "D. Screen" Date: 1999-07-24 19:40:00 Subject: SWTCA trip report Just got back from the SWTCA semiannual tool meet in Arlington, TX. It ran from 10am to 2pm...didn't see any parking lot action. Everybody setup at 10am and things got started. Got to meet several fellow galoots to include Stan Faullin and his parents... Jim Spaullin, Frank from the Armadillo Works in Fort Worth, and Paul Coppinger from Plano. Sorry if I got the spelling of the names wrong. This was my first time attending one of these events. Everybody was very friendly and helpful on tips for purchasing various items. Met one gent who was buying coachmaker tools that were unusual to say the least. We got to talking about saws and he mentioned that he had accumulated over 170!!! I was wondering if I had too many when I hit 8. Even met a couple of SWMBO's.....they were not exactly thrilled to be there but were somewhat tolerant of the whole affair. Very nice ladies...their galootish husbands should be glad they found someone who can put up with this hobby. I went not really expecting to come home with anything since my user set has filled out nicely over the last six months...but went armed with some cash just in case. My downfall was Troy Marshall's table....nice woodies all over the place. The following tools leapt of the tables and followed me home somehow: Stanley No. 12 Scraper Stanley No. 55 Convex spokeshave Stanley No. 40 1/2 Scrub plane An R.Groves & Sons Brass Backed Tenon Saw circa 1840-1880. (stamped USE and Made for Thos Smith & Co Halifax, medallion says established 1770) Stanley #66 Marking Gauge w/ patent Aug 5, 1873 A beautiful set of 8 matched side beads (woodies) Greenslade 1828-1830, marked W. Greenslade Bristol, owner's mark G. Penny and marked Exhibition Medals London and Dublin, single boxing, sizes 1/8 thru 1 inch in 1/8 increments. Saw jointer, Atkins & Co. Excelsior No. 5, INDPLS, IND. No. 45 replacement rosewood fence and knob by Stan Faullin. The slippery slope just iced over...... Much more enjoyable than the anteek maul route.....and more productive. I pulled out my No. 9 1/2 with add on reproduction handle from Patrick Leach...it was met with a few oh no's......the collector's gasped......it was if I had committed a sin. But others were more understanding and admired Patrick's work. He does make very nice stuff and I highly recommend his tools. Plus he is a pleasure to do business with. Don Allen, TX ---- Start of Message 65395 (thread 28156) ---- From: FrankSronce Date: 1999-07-25 02:59:00 Subject: Re: SWTCA trip report "D. Screen" wrote: > > Just got back from the SWTCA semiannual tool meet in Arlington, TX. Two further items to mention. The event lived up to its name (Hotter N' Hell Regional Meet) - 102 degrees. And I finally got rid of my #608C. Only got $40 for it, but at least it is gone. It didn't have a box, so it wasn't worth much. Now if I could just get rid of those miter boxes!! :-) All in all, it was an enjoyable time spent talking tools. What more can one ask for. Frank (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ++++ End of thread 28156 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28157 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65389 (thread 28157) ---- From: "D. Screen" Date: 1999-07-24 23:42:00 Subject: Atkins saw jointer gauge and saw questions One of the tools I picked up at the SWTCA meet today was a Excelsior No. 5, Atkins & Co. saw jointer gauge. I needed it for the jointing function but realized it could do other tasks. So I asked around.... drew many blank stares. Especially asking about the slotted plate at the base of the gauge. Thanks to Nathan Lindsey's Saw Set Museum...I found a reproduction of the instructions in PDF format for this tool!! Thanks Nathan!!! Threw me for a loop at first....trying to figure out the references to the setting block and tooth set gauge. I thought they were part of the jointer gauge...and then later realized they are part of a 3 piece set. Anyway..back to the slotted part of the jointer gauge. Turns out it is a raker gauge. The raker type teeth of a timber cutting saw are placed in the slot and filed to be slightly lower than the cutting teeth. I was suprised that I was not the only galoot who was clueless on this part of the jointer gauge. The dealer who sold me the jointer gauge knew what it was for (the jointer portion) and how to use it but did not know what it was called. He did not know what the slot was for either. The jointer gauge can also hold the file in a sideways position for dressing the sides of the teeth. Two final questions. 1. What is the typical width of a tenon saw? carcass saw? 2. Should a tenon saw be filed rip or crosscut or should I have one of each? Probably a silly question. 3. Okay 3 questions. Anybody know what USE stands for on my Groves & Son backsaw? The saw was made for Thomas Smith & Co. in Halifax....saw is from Sheffield. Don Allen, TX ++++ End of thread 28157 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28158 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65390 (thread 28158) ---- From: "D. Screen" Date: 1999-07-25 00:19:00 Subject: Saw question answered Sorry to bother the list...but I guess I found the answer I was looking for in Mike Dunbar's book. My saw is 14 inches long and about 3 1/2 inches wide with 11 points per inch. According to Mike's book that makes it a "sash saw" used to cut the tenons and bridle joints used to make sash. Apparently a "tenon saw" is a bit longer...running from 16-20 inches and only 10 points per inch. His book also says the teeth were normally filed "crosscut" but the saws were often used with the grain (rip). Don Allen, TX PS. Still waiting for my LN carcass saw to show up..... ++++ End of thread 28158 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28159 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65400 (thread 28159) ---- From: "Becky & Tim Hammond" Date: 1999-07-25 06:01:00 Subject: What's a treadle scrollsaw worth? Ran across a treadle scrollsaw at an antique show today. It's in pretty rough shape, and needs cleaning really badly, but it works. They were asking $255 for it. Is that in the neighborhood of reasonable? -- Tim ---- Start of Message 65437 (thread 28159) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-07-23 09:23:00 Subject: Re: What's a treadle scrollsaw worth? > Content-Length: 601 > > Ran across a treadle scrollsaw at an antique show today. > It's in pretty rough shape, and needs cleaning really badly, > but it works. They were asking $255 for it. Is that in the > neighborhood of reasonable? -- Tim I see them advertised in the general news papers here in the UK for 40-60 GBP. But then, I'm only 30 miles from the place that made damn near the world's supply - Hobbies of dereham. BugBear. ---- Start of Message 65440 (thread 28159) ---- From: TURFF49@a... Date: 1999-07-26 11:20:00 Subject: Re: What's a treadle scrollsaw worth? If they are that cheap, have you thought about shipping some to us less fortunate? Even after paying the shipping and a little commission it should still be cheaper than what they go for here. Just a thought. Brian ---- Start of Message 65449 (thread 28159) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-07-26 12:28:00 Subject: Re: What's a treadle scrollsaw worth? > > If they are that cheap, have you thought about shipping some to us less > fortunate? Even after paying the shipping and a little commission it should > still be cheaper than what they go for here. Just a thought. Brian > Nah. Tony Murland lives 20 miles from me. I'll leave it to him. He's set up for it, and even takes credit cards... Might not be exotic enough for Tony though. He's gettin' mighty fancy tastes these days. BugBear. ++++ End of thread 28159 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 28160 ++++ ---- Start of Message 65401 (thread 28160) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-07-25 13:21:00 Subject: WTB: Bench Screw nut To all those nuts about screws: At an auction yesterday I scored a "Scandanavian style" WW bench which had apparently seen service in a major Normite production shop (at least is the past few decades of life) mostly as a table for gluing and finishing. Sometime in that period someone saw fit to deprive it of its natural function by removing the nuts from the screws. The threaded shafts and handles of the shoulder and end vises are still there; only the nuts are missing. So to get this bench up and running I need: Two nuts for bench vise screws. The Ts on the shafts have COLUMBIAN in the casting, and are painted grey. The shafts themselves are 1" OD, with square profile threads, cut at a pitch of 4 per inch. If you happen to have such items somewhere in a parts bin, I'd like to make a deal. And thanks in advance for recommendations on catalog sources. I have already verified that I can get Veritas or similar replacements for the vise hardware from either GW or Woodcraft. But the former is 1 1/8" OD, and the latter is 1 1/4" OD, so I would have to get the complete set, at considerable cost (in relation to the cost of the bench - not a gloat, but not too bad, considering). I also met our own Jack Kamishlian (over from Endwell) at this meet (Hi, Jack), and the buddy he was with, who mentioned a catalog called Reid or Reed, that might have the individual parts I need. Does anyone have contact info for such a supplier? TIA for any help, Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 65403 (thread 28160) ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 1999-07-25 14:45:00 Subject: Re: WTB: Bench Screw nut In a message dated 7/25/99 6:39:26 AM, thh1@c... writes: << And thanks in advance for recommendations on catalog sources ... >> How about the manufacturer: Columbian Vise Div Warren Tool 9021 Bessemer Ave Cleveland, OH 44104 216/341-2134 Likely they can provide just the nut as a replacement part. Probably expensive, but surely less expensive than a complete screw and nut. Founded as The Columbian Hardware Company, Cleveland, Ohio, in 1926 this company became The Columbian Vise and Mfg. Co. These vises were standard equipment in school and commercial wood shops as far back as I care to remember. Re: vise threads: the 1-1/4" and 1-1/8" screws mentioned as being carried by various woodworker supply houses are likely "nominal" dimensions, as the actual manufacturers are usually German (at least all that I have purchased in the past have turned out to be German). I presume a replacement from Columbian Vise will be 1" actual size. Incidentally, "Columbian" is not a misspelling (some might spell this "Colombian"). Acme-threaded nuts and rods are carried by some larger hardware stores (although in my town of 50,000 the stores stock only up to 3/4"). Peter. ---- Start of Message 65405 (thread 28160) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-07-25 16:31:00 Subject: Re: WTB: Bench Screw nut Both McMasters and MSC sell nuts for ACME thread and they are only a few $$. However, I dont find 1-4 listed except for the high precision thread and that is a lot more expensive (about $27). Also, it is not hard to make an ACME nut by pouring babbitt around the thread. Adam ---- Start of Message 65406 (thread 28160) ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 1999-07-25 19:01:00 Subject: Re: WTB: Bench Screw nut In a message dated 7/25/99 9:53:14 AM, adamwhiteson@m... writes: << Also, it is not hard to make an ACME nut by pouring babbitt around the thread. >> Quite true. FWW once carried a story on the very back page about a guy who bought a bargain Emmert vise. He found out why it was a bargain when he got the vise home and found the nut was worn out. The nut on that Emmert happened to be made of babbit. However, I suspect the nut on Tom's Columbian is made of something stronger than babbit. The FWW piece went on to describe the process for making a babbit nut for an Emmert. ---- Start of Message 65453 (thread 28160) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1999-07-26 13:43:00 Subject: Re: WTB: Bench Screw nut On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:01:45 EDT PeterH5322@a... writes: > >In a message dated 7/25/99 9:53:14 AM, adamwhiteson@m... >writes: > ><< >Also, it is not hard to make an ACME nut by pouring babbitt around the thread. >>> > >Quite true. > [snip] > >The FWW piece went on to describe the process for making a babbit nut >for an Emmert. > Would any of the Babbit knowledgeable please give the rest of us a primer on babbit bearings? Regards, curious Steve ---- Start of Message 65461 (thread 28160) ---- From: "John Ruth" Date: 1999-07-26 16:13:00 Subject: RE: WTB: Bench Screw nut Assembled Galootdom: The esteemed porch dweller Tom Holloway asked about sources for COLUMBIAN vise screw nuts. Well, there is some reason to believe Columbian was bought by Wilton, as I recently saw a catalog entry for "Columbian by Wilton". The last address I have for Columbian is: Columbian Vise Division Warren Tool Corp. 9021-T Bessemer Ave. < Date: 1999-07-26 17:15:00 Subject: Re: WTB: Bench Screw nut Hello again Tom and GGs, At that same auction where Tom picked up that bench, they also auctioned off a bunch of babbit strips - suitable for melting down and making bearings, nuts, etc - and it went for a song. At least they said it was babbit. Now if he knew then what he knows now.... Cheers, Jack in Endwell, NY Who picked up some woodies and Arkansas stones at the same auction. Tom Holloway wrote: > > To all those nuts about screws: > At an auction yesterday I scored a "Scandanavian style" WW bench > which had apparently seen service in a major Normite production shop (at > least is the past few decades of life) mostly as a table for gluing and > finishing. Sometime in that period someone saw fit to deprive it of its > natural function by removing the nuts from the screws. The threaded shafts > and handles of the shoulder and end vises are still there; only the nuts > are missing. So to get this bench up and running I need: > Two nuts for bench vise screws. The Ts on the shafts have > COLUMBIAN in the casting, and are painted grey. The shafts themselves are > 1" OD, with square profile threads, cut at a pitch of 4 per inch. If you > happen to have such items somewhere in a parts bin, I'd like to make a deal. > And thanks in advance for recommendations on catalog sources. I > have already verified that I can get Veritas or similar replacements for > the vise hardware from either GW or Woodcraft. But the former is 1 1/8" > OD, and the latter is 1 1/4" OD, so I would have to get the complete set, > at considerable cost (in relation to the cost of the bench - not a gloat, > but not too bad, considering). I also met our own Jack Kamishlian (over > from Endwell) at this meet (Hi, Jack), and the buddy he was with, who > mentioned a catalog called Reid or Reed, that might have the individual > parts I need. Does anyone have contact info for such a supplier? > TIA for any help, > Tom Holloway > > -- ---- Start of Message 65508 (thread 28160) ---- From: "John Quinn" Date: 1999-07-27 02:31:00 Subject: Re: WTB: Bench Screw nut Dear Peter and GG's, I remember that FWW story and it was a little gem. Sort of got to the heart of what these tools mean to many of us. Spoke to the respect I, and I'm sure many others, have for the old timers who weilded these tools. ...good info on how to make the nut, too. John Quinn San Rafael > >FWW once carried a story on the very back page about a guy who bought a >bargain Emmert vise. He found out why it was a bargain when he got the vise >home and found the nut was worn out. The nut on that Emmert happened to be >made of babbit. > >However, I suspect the nut