++++ Start of thread 25071 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57503 (thread 25071) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-02-11 18:32:00 Subject: Superman Sargent Galoots, Recently, I picked up a Sargent Jack plane with a logo that I had never seen in person before. I have a few questions and commentary about this Sargent. If you have Dave Heckels (if not, why not?) book, "Sargent Identificati on and Value Guide", look on page 78 at the type 7 trademark (1955-1960) Otherwise, the best description I can give is that this is the "superman" letter "S" logo with Sargent struck through it horizontally. As I said, this is the first one of these I've seen, let alone had the opportunity to buy. So, given that I've hung around tool haunts, fondling countless tools, for something like two centuries, are these uncommon marks? I'd be interested in private emails from anyone who has one or more of these logo'ed tools and also hearing from anyone privately who has seen'em by the bucket load. Now, for some commentary on the tool. The good news is that it is well made. But, it is not well finished. It lacks a frog position adjustment screw which earlier Sargents had, so it is likely not a jack plane that you rabid users will want. I'm positive the plane is correct, because of the condition and circumstances of "finding" it. he cutter is the proper type 7. But, it is curious that the original frog is the size of one I'd expect in a number three plane. Obviously Sargent designed this plane to save money and didn't engineer it for use. The genuine "synthetic" (as in petroleum based) Rosewood handles are actually quite good, appropriately comfortable in the hand and quite solid. Score one for technology, if not looks. The plane is quite heavy. I'm not getting into the throat versus cutte r sharpness debate, but I suspect that if you set the frog to the correct spot and SS'ed the blade, it would be a good tool even with the small frog and without the "required" frog adjusting screw. Anyone used one of these Sargent's? Oh, and it is NOT for sale. I have one - an interest, which goes into my Sargent collection. *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * *********************************************** ---- Start of Message 57614 (thread 25071) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-02-12 21:17:00 Subject: Re: Superman Sargent Galoots, FYI. I posted the note below and the dirth of responses was "deafening " Only one respondent, who was simply asking a frog adjustment question. So, I gather this model Sargent is VERY rare! Maybe I WILL sell it. T he first $1250 gets it! :) Karl > Recently, I picked up a Sargent Jack plane with a logo that I had never seen in person >before. I have a few questions and commentary about this Sargent. >If you have Dave Heckels (if not, why not?) book, "Sargent Identification and Value Guide", >look on page 78 at the type 7 trademark (1955-1960) Otherwise, the best description I can >give is that this is the "superman" letter "S" logo with Sargent struck through it horizontally. >As I said, this is the first one of these I've seen, let alone had the opportunity to buy. So, >given that I've hung around tool haunts, fondling countless tools, for something like two >centuries, are these uncommon marks? >I'd be interested in private emails from anyone who has one or more of these logo'ed tools >and also hearing from anyone privately who has seen'em by the bucket load. >Now, for some commentary on the tool. >The good news is that it is well made. But, it is not well finished. It lacks a frog position >adjustment screw which earlier Sargents had, so it is likely not a jack plane that you rabid >users will want. >I'm positive the plane is correct, because of the condition and circumstances of "finding" it. >he cutter is the proper type 7. But, it is curious that the original frog is the size of one I'd >expect in a number three plane. Obviously Sargent designed this plane to save money and >didn't engineer it for use. >The genuine "synthetic" (as in petroleum based) Rosewood handles are actually quite >good, appropriately comfortable in the hand and quite solid. Score one for technology, if not >looks. >The plane is quite heavy. I'm not getting into the throat versus cutter sharpness debate, but >I suspect that if you set the frog to the correct spot and SS'ed the blade, it would be a good >tool even with the small frog and without the "required" frog adjusting screw. >Anyone used one of these Sargent's? >Oh, and it is NOT for sale. I have one - an interest, which goes into my Sargent collection. > ---- Start of Message 57756 (thread 25071) ---- From: Phil and Debbie Koontz Date: 1999-02-16 00:46:00 Subject: Re: Superman Sargent Hi Karl-- Hey; we got the makings of another deal like Jeff's here! You wanta trade that valuable plane for a car? I have a 1963 Rambler Classic that's probably worth about $12.50. Shipping might be a little steep though.... Phil Koontz Worried about that gap between my #6 and the #8. In Kansas. >Galoots, >FYI. I posted the note below and the dirth of responses was "deafening" >Only one respondent, who was simply asking a frog adjustment question. >So, I gather this model Sargent is VERY rare! Maybe I WILL sell it. The >first $1250 gets it! :) > Karl ++++ End of thread 25071 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25072 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57505 (thread 25072) ---- From: Will Flor Date: 1999-02-11 18:26:00 Subject: Bio: Will Flor Greetings, O Mighty Galoots. I've been lurking under the porch for a month or so now, and humbly offer my bio in hopes that I may be allowed to join your esteemed company. I have my spitoon-polishing rag a-handy, in case I make a mistake. I've been a woodworker of some type or another for twenty-some-odd years (some of them *very* odd years,) having made my ignoble entry into the realm as a framing carpenter, and later as a worker in a now-defunct pallet mill in the Missouri Ozarks. As should be obvious by now, I'm very acquainted with tailed apprentices, and have used many a one. My transformation into a Galoot began soon thereafter, whilst helping a friend with some firewood cutting from his woodlot. I noticed that some of the logs we were bucking were walnut, and had beautiful brown heartwood. Upon mentioning that it was such a shame to burn such beautiful wood for its heat content, my friend gave me a bunch. Of course, I had no idea what to do with it, as my experience was in nailing together SYP 2x4s and working that most horrid of tailed apprentices, the dreaded swingsaw (a Truly Evil Device I mention only to Call Down a Blight Upon It.) Soon thereafter, not knowing any better, I ventured to what I thought was a supplier of woodworking tools (K-Mart) and bought some so-called chisels, made by what was then a garage-door-opener manufacturer. With these "chisels", as well as a few other hand tools, I split off the sapwood and began carving away in earnest, eventually making some strange-looking craftsy stuff (not pukey ducks - no, really!) like knife handles. The rest, as they say, is history. Yeah, the stuff that put you to sleep in high school. Later I survived college, graduate school and other Evil Tortures, and emerged as a software engineer, a most non-Galootish profession. Since we in the software world construct intricate machinery that has no corporeal substance whatsoever, I took out my frustrations and creative urges by....that's right....neander woodworking. Okay, not *completely* neander, but mostly. Eventually I met a lovely woman, soon realizing that she had a lot of experience in woodworking as well. When I found out that she owned more planes than I do...well, I couldn't let her escape. She is, of course, my SWMBO now; her experience includes theatrical props - she was a propmaster for the Milwaukee Repertory Theater for years - and working at a custom furniture manufacturing/repair shop, working for clients from as far away as Europe and Japan. A really good background, though not very Galootish. She's a bit more Normite than I, but she's learning. ;-) We live in suburban Milwaukee, on a street named Craftsman Drive. I wanted to move to Lie-Nielson Avenue, but I couldn't afford the neighborhood. ;-) We have a little SWMBette now, and she's eager to learn the Ways of the Galoot. A few weeks ago, one of her little friends was over, and I showed him a plane (a Stanley block plane of some type) and asked him if he knew what it was. Darned if the little shaver (pun intended) didn't!! He didn't know what to call it, but he knew *exactly* what it was for...and he's only four years old! Maybe there's hope for the world yet. Anyway, we build furniture and boxes, do marquetry and veneering, and are still very much Galoots-In-Training, if you Esteemed Fellowes will permit me to adopt that moniker. Our main design influences are Art Deco, Art Nouveau, and Arts & Crafts. As a final note, I'll add that although there are a few p*w*r t*o*s around our shop (which used to be a garage) over my life I've spent a lot more on planes and chisels than on tailed apprentices. In fact, other than one which I bought as a gift last year (so it doesn't count...yeah, that's the ticket) I haven't bought a p*w*r t**l in years. -------------- Will Flor New Berlin, Wisconsin _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 25072 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25073 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57506 (thread 25073) ---- From: Jim Thoreson Date: 1999-02-11 18:46:00 Subject: WTB: Stanley #46 I am looking for a user #46 in good shape, no cracks, type 1-7. Does not need to have cutters or depth stop, but would like to have guard plate, spurs and necessary screws. Thanks for your reply in advance. Jim Thoreson (j_thor@e...) ---- Start of Message 57508 (thread 25073) ---- From: Stan Faullin Date: 1999-02-11 19:18:00 Subject: Re: WTB: Stanley #46 At 01:46 PM 2/11/99 -0500, you wrote: >I am looking for a user #46 in good shape, no cracks, type 1-7. Does not >need to have cutters or depth stop, but would like to have guard plate, >spurs and necessary screws. Hi Jim, I'm just curious why you would want an early type plane for a user. The later planes had a few good user enhancements, which typically make the later ones better users. The enhancements were 1) the fence vs. the earlier guard plate, which is very convenient for grooves & dados near and edge. 2) the blade retaining screw is secured so the cutter is ejected when it's loosened. Otherwise, you have to pound the wingnut to loosen the cutter, which is why so many of these early wingnuts are found broken on early #45's & #46's. 3) the earlier nickers (type 1 & 2) probably didn't work very well. The screw adjustable nickers would seem to be much better. Cheers, Stan ++++ End of thread 25073 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25074 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57507 (thread 25074) ---- From: SSalbWW@a... Date: 1999-02-11 18:45:00 Subject: Bowsaw Plans again? Could someone e-mail me the step-by-step plans that someone so graciously up- loaded to the list? I printed it out, but now I can't find it, and there are so many bowsaw messages that I can't find it by looking through 'em all. You know who you are!!! Thanks a bunch, and sorry to clutter the list with this request! Shannon Salb ++++ End of thread 25074 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25075 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57509 (thread 25075) ---- From: LLesniak@a... Date: 1999-02-11 19:11:00 Subject: WTB: Woodie Dado Planes Friends: I'd be interesting in acquiring a few wooden dado planes...particularly 1/2, 5/8, and 3/4 sizes. Anyone looking to part with any? Thanks! Larry ++++ End of thread 25075 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25076 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57510 (thread 25076) ---- From: "Birdwalk Farms" Date: 1999-02-11 19:26:00 Subject: att: listowner all others can delete now sorry to use bandwidth but listserv will NOT accept my command to digest, which i have to do. so far e-mail to cornell admin for this has not replied. thanks for help. Dan and Laura at Birdwalk Farms ++++ End of thread 25076 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25077 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57513 (thread 25077) ---- From: "Russell, Lanny J" Date: 1999-02-11 20:30:00 Subject: Satanly phone # Soleflatteners please excuse the interruption. I only need to squeeze up here to ask for Lori's phone number @ Satanly Parts dept. Thanks, return to your SS'ing Lanny Russell N'Awlins ---- Start of Message 57533 (thread 25077) ---- From: BohlB@a... Date: 1999-02-12 03:02:00 Subject: Re: Satanly phone # In a message dated 2/11/99 2:35:16 PM Central Standard Time, russelj@t... writes: > > please excuse the interruption. > I only need to squeeze up here to ask for Lori's > phone number @ Satanly Parts dept. > Try 800-262-2161 X-55839 Ask for their Repair Parts Catalog and for the price list. Bill Bohl ++++ End of thread 25077 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25078 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57514 (thread 25078) ---- From: "Rodgers Charles" Date: 1999-02-11 21:08:00 Subject: Bottom Feeding & Wooden Toilets - Long Stories of youthful folly & adventure abound on the porch! Somehow, _my mind_ made a logical connection between the bottom feeding challenge and wooden toilet seats. From there, it's just a wink and a nod to the outhouse. And that's what this story is about - an outhouse. Not the one out behind our house when I was a kid growing up in Missouri, but another one in a place far away and a time long ago. When my student deferment was cancelled in 1964, I realized that I would soon be receiving the infamous "Greetings" letter. Sure enough I did get it, but I tricked Uncle. I had joined the Navy a week before the letter arrived. Fast forward 18 months and I find myself a fresh, 20 year old seaman straight out of Radioman school. I'm climbing out of a C-47, (or C-49, or C-something -I never liked airplanes and never could keep the numbers straight) into a hot, steamy morning on the airstrip outside DaNang, VietNam. I'd been sent in as a replacement crewmember to an air transportable communication unit attached to the 3rd Marine Division. I didn't want to ask what happened to the guy I was replacing. A crusty old salt spies me and waddles over. Asks "You goin' to the ATCU?" "Yessir", sez I. "Grab your seabag and my case of beer over there an' follow me." "An' if you call me 'Sir' again, I'll keelhaul you." That was my introduction to Engineman First Class Watkins. Buddha. Not much to look at, and nothing you'd want to be seen with in mixed company, but a hell of a shipmate and a magician with old (mechanics) tools. He could make an old, worn-out utility diesel motor-generator set purr and put out power more stable than any fancy regulated technical MG set. Everybody (that was lucky) had a sea daddy. Somebody that took you under their wing and taught you about life, women, and the Navy (not necessarily in that order). Buddha was mine. He was the face I sought out in the dark when, my first night there, I heard a slight commotion just outside the berthing tent where I was unsuccessfully trying to sleep. I reached over, lifted the tent flap and saw the worst sight I've ever seen in my life, before or since. A sapper had come up the swamp where our camp was set up and garrotted a Marine no more than 4 feet from my cot. From that time on I slept with a loaded .45 pistol in my hand, with a round in the chamber and my thumb on the safety. "Sleep" is probably too strong a term - I don't think I was ever unaware of my surroundings for a couple of years after that. But I digress. My duties were perimiter security guard at night, cook (I made the mistake of admitting that I had flipped burgers at one time), cleaning crew, clothes washer, water boy, and whatever menial chore that no one else would stoop to do. I was the seaman. The second day, Buddha told me that the head needed burning out. For those few of you who are unfamiliar with the term, "head" is Navy talk for restroom/toilet. We lived in two tents, with a third for cooking/eating/reading/letter writing, etc. Our comm equipment was in small trailers (equipment shelters), with two diesel generators to power the radios. We had a "cumshawed" wingtip tank from a plane that crashed & burned on return to the airstrip (only a couple of miles from us). We sorta' washed it out and built a 7 foot high platform to hold it. Stick a piece of water pipe with a spigot in the belly, and we had a shower (cold water, tho). The head was a two-holer. A shipping crate with two holes cut in it over a 3 ft deep hole in the ground. There was an outer enclosure of 4x8 plywood on edge with a makeshift door in it, another sheet for a roof and mosquito netting from the end of the plywood (4' above the ground) to the roof (about 6-1/2' above ground level). Nothing fancy, but it was the only one around. There was always a line of Marines waiting to use it, not to mention the 16 sailors in my unit. "Whaddaya mean, 'Burn it out' ?" I asked. "Go draw a quart of diesel fuel from one of the drums, dump it in the hole, and throw some burning paper in." "Okay." Well, one quart didn't do anything. Two still wasn't enough. In fact, three quarts wouldn't catch fire. I must've put six or seven quarts in the hole, holding my breath because of the stench. By now, there is a lot of smoke, but no flame. I've dropped enough burning paper in the hole to heat up the diesel fuel and fill the whole outhouse with diesel vapors when Buddha strolls over. "What the f#$@# are you doin'?? You gotta f#@%^$^'n tip the f#@#^%@'n box off the f#@$$$^$%'n hole so f#@#%#$#'n oxygen can get to the f#@##$$#$%'n fuel!" As I'm wiping the tears outa my eyes from the diesel fumes, Buddha walks off. I draw a deep breath, run into the smoke, and kick the box off the hole. KABOOM!!!! The instantaneous ignition of probably two gallons of hot, partially vaporized diesel fuel could safely be classified as an explosion. It knocked me thru the side of the outhouse, taking down one wall, which allowed the roof to collapse, which apparently trapped enough energy that a second ignition launched the entire structure 15 or 20 feet straight up into the air. I'm witnessing this as I'm lying on my back, ears ringing, lungs burning, and eyes streaming tears. All I could think of was that the whole mess was gonna land on me. Luckily it didn't. It dropped right back down onto the hole. I sat up and dazedly watched it burn. Loud shouts, laughing, and innumerable insults accompanied the entire episode. A secondary effect was that, since the hole hadn't been dug with truly vertical sides, the sudden release of energy apparently caused the semi-liquid contents to be forced outward to the sides of the hole and then upward along the ramped sides. Naturally, once clear of the confines of the earth, it spread outward in all directions. The front half of my body was covered in a fairly uniform coating of "processed foodstuff". Thus the genesis of a nickname that I was unable to get away from for a couple of years - "Sh*thouse". Not only was I forced to rebuild the structure immediately, but no one would help. The rather pungent odor which permeated the immediate vicinity kept the onlookers at a respectable distance. After finally getting a semblance of the former outhouse rebuilt, I was made to bathe in the swamp, strip, and burn my uniform before I was permitted to then shower under the "tank". OT content: I only had a hammer, handsaw and nails to resurect the structure from the loose materials lying about. I'm here to tell the story today because the 8" long extremely venemous snake I uncovered when I picked a board up from the weeds struck the cuff of my shirt and missed my arm. They were commonly known as "Two-step Charlies". Well, that and the fact that our Gunny had the runs so bad that he didn't want to take time to kill me because he was waiting to be the first to use the new outhouse. This is one of the good memories of that time in my life. I've pretty well blocked out the bad ones that dealt with a lot of death. Charlie Rodgers Clinton, Maryland ++++ End of thread 25078 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25079 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57517 (thread 25079) ---- From: Loganftp@a... Date: 1999-02-11 21:22:00 Subject: Blue Zirconia Lapping paper GG's, All this discussion of sole lapping must have stuck in my brain (heck, at least something does these days) I'm reading along in rec.destroy.metalstuff and there's a sandpaper joint listed. http://www.supergrit.com/ They are offering Norton Blue Zirconia 9"x11" 80 grit for $0.40 ea. and 180 thru 400 grit are $0.35 ea. Might be a little fine for sole lapping, but I'm sure they'd have coarser grits available. Anybody order from these guys or is this even a good price? I've never seen the stuff in 9x11 sheets in the wild - only in belt form at the orange store. No affiliation, no kickbacks, not a relative - just thought y'all might like to know. Dave Tobbe Michigaloot - basking in sunny 60 degree weather in Detroit! ++++ End of thread 25079 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25080 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57519 (thread 25080) ---- From: Dave Weisbord Date: 1999-02-11 21:42:00 Subject: FS Just a couple items for sale. Oldtools terms apply. Add shipping: 1. Set of VERY LARGE Arkansas Stones (8" x 3"). Soft, Hard, and Surgical Black. These were the wide stones a number of galoots got via the List about a year ago. Made by Hall's, each comes in a cedar box. They are used but not very much. Comes with bottle of honing oil. $60 (about 1/2 of what they originally sold for). 2. 8" Disston #68 dovetail saw with turned handle. Blade in nice shape, handle has a small drilled hang hole. $20. Dave ++++ End of thread 25080 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25081 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57520 (thread 25081) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-02-11 21:57:00 Subject: Post Ken, So, how did you get your letter to the editor to the Wash Post? Mail o r email? Address? pop ++++ End of thread 25081 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25082 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57522 (thread 25082) ---- From: "David Boreham" Date: 1999-02-11 22:27:00 Subject: SS Abrasives online I went looking for on-line ordering of abrasive supplies, including the elusive 2000 grit. Came up with only one site: http://www.industrialtool.com Their prices look pretty good, lower than the local auto-parts store where I live. I ordered 50, 1/2 sheets of 2000 grit wet 'n' dry. ++++ End of thread 25082 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25083 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57526 (thread 25083) ---- From: NLutz10449@a... Date: 1999-02-12 01:23:00 Subject: Millers Falls No. 87 Breast Drill Assembled Galoots, I recently pulled off a bottom-feeder acquisition which was not free, but $5 is close enough to nothing to still be cheap. The find was a breast drill. This thing was so grungy I couldn't identify the model until I started cleaning it. Wasn't I pleasantly surprised to find it was a MF #87 with the 5-speed transmission. (Actually 2 gear ratios, changed with the pull of a lever, and a choice of standard rotation, ratchetting action clockwise or ccw, and the ability to spin the chuck only cw or only ccw regardless of the direction one turns the drive handle.) Did you get all that? The drill is still cleaning up and the moving parts now are well lubricated. The drive handle (but not the shaft it rides on) is m.i.a. as well as the stabilizing handle that your other hand would hold. Does anyone have an image I could see or an actual drill he or she could trace on paper so that I could reproduce the handles in wood? I haven't seen discussion of this drill onlist. Its complicated drive features seem to be more like bells and neat whistles than options a drill user would have demanded in 1911. Erik von Sneidern Syracuse, NY ---- Start of Message 57532 (thread 25083) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-02-12 02:54:00 Subject: Re: Millers Falls No. 87 Breast Drill Erik von Sneidern gloats : >I recently pulled off a bottom-feeder acquisition which was >not free, but $5 is close enough to nothing to still be cheap. >The find was a breast drill. This thing was so grungy I couldn't >identify the model until I started cleaning it. Wasn't I pleasantly >surprised to find it was a MF #87 with the 5-speed transmission. >(Actually 2 gear ratios, changed with the pull of a lever, and a >choice of standard rotation, ratchetting action clockwise or ccw, >and the ability to spin the chuck only cw or only ccw regardless >of the direction one turns the drive handle.) Did you get all that? I can still vividly recall Bruce 'from Minnesnowta' picking one of these off a table at :my: fleamarket. It was in very good condition (mint ?). Bruce kept trying to haggle the guy down from 20 $CDN (0.10 $US) but the seller persisted in pretending he couldn't understand what Bruce was saying. I had never seen one of these drills, nor have I since... Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 57594 (thread 25083) ---- From: "R. J. Paulsen, Jr." Date: 1999-02-12 18:08:00 Subject: Re: Millers Falls No. 87 Breast Drill Eric, I have a MF #97 Breast Drill in a fairly well preserved condition. The #97 was a sister to the #87 with the only major difference being the chuck. The #97 has a 3-jaw chuck and the #87 a 2-jaw. According to the MF 1915 catalog, the #97 was the most expensive model available, priced at $95.00 per dozen. The #87 weighed in at $90.00 per dozen. I am confidant my 97's crank handle is original but have some doubts about the stationary handle as it's finish doesn't allow the wood grain to show as does the crank handle's finish. I also believe the device that holds the crank handle to the crank arm is an emergency replacement by a previous owner. My drill does not completely match the one shown in the 1915 cat., I suspect mine is a later version. It has patent dates: Aug 4, 1911 and Aug 6, 1912. My 1915 cat. is a reprint by Roger K. Smith. He may have copies available. If you want photos or traces, let me know. rjp -----Original Message----- From: NLutz10449@a... To: oldtools@l... Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:23 PM Subject: Millers Falls No. 87 Breast Drill >Assembled Galoots, > >I recently pulled off a bottom-feeder acquisition which was >not free, but $5 is close enough to nothing to still be cheap. >The find was a breast drill. This thing was so grungy I couldn't >identify the model until I started cleaning it. Wasn't I pleasantly >surprised to find it was a MF #87 with the 5-speed transmission. >(Actually 2 gear ratios, changed with the pull of a lever, and a >choice of standard rotation, ratchetting action clockwise or ccw, >and the ability to spin the chuck only cw or only ccw regardless >of the direction one turns the drive handle.) Did you get all that? > >The drill is still cleaning up and the moving parts now are well >lubricated. The drive handle (but not the shaft it rides on) >is m.i.a. as well as the stabilizing handle that your other >hand would hold. Does anyone have an image I could see or >an actual drill he or she could trace on paper so that I could >reproduce the handles in wood? > >I haven't seen discussion of this drill onlist. Its complicated >drive features seem to be more like bells and neat whistles >than options a drill user would have demanded in 1911. > >Erik von Sneidern >Syracuse, NY > >-- > ++++ End of thread 25083 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25084 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57527 (thread 25084) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-12 01:31:00 Subject: Check this out Pay this site a visit: http://www.thebestthings.com/vintools.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) On the road in Hartford, CT wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ++++ End of thread 25084 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25085 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57528 (thread 25085) ---- From: "Frank Filippone" Date: 1999-02-12 02:34:00 Subject: Stanley #81 I picked up a Stanley #81 recently in real nice shape. I am going to put it into service, so some questions..... It has a Hock blade in it. Obviously not original, but it will cut wood...... The blade is 1/16 thick, but fits VERY securely in the plane.... is this right? Is a real tight fit ( like hard to install the blade ) correct? To someone owning an original blade, how thick is the original blade? #2.... the wooden sole is VERY worn, in fact the seller had re- installed the sole backwards so the screws would not poke through.... sounds like he switched sole plates before he sold it to me....... Is there a source of the sole plates available? If not, what kind of wood was used? It looks like rosewood, sort of. But it could be ironwood, lignum Vitae or something else..... Can anyone help ID the wood so I can build my own? Thanks Much Frank ++++ End of thread 25085 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25086 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57529 (thread 25086) ---- From: STJones911@a... Date: 1999-02-12 02:29:00 Subject: Ward's Combination Plane (last time) and WTB (maybe) See, Ralph, you CAN get a consensus on OLDTOOLS. You just have to ask the right (dumb?) question. The consensus was that $245 is too salty. If it were a pristine and complete Stanley, yes; Ward's no. I've always thought that it's stupid to seek expert advice and then ignore it, so I'm going to pass on this one. There was also general agreement that there should be someone (maybe several) on this list who could assemble a complete mixed-vintage 45 for a reasonable cost. Estimates ranged from about half to two-thirds of the Ward's asking price. Can anybody do it for half? Plus shipping, of course. Steve Jones Kokomo IN Still seeking Stanley #64 screwdrivers, Buck Bros. mortise chisels and now a Stanley 45 too. If they all show up at once, I'm in deep weeds. ++++ End of thread 25086 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25087 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57534 (thread 25087) ---- From: JLMOORE@a... Date: 1999-02-12 03:53:00 Subject: Keen Kutter Kwestion Hi Galoots, I picked up my second KK plane, a #5 this weekend at an auction. Nothing broken, and for $5 I didn't think I could go wrong. I also have a KK #4 acquired in November. I noticed that both have a noticably thicker blade than that seen on Stanleys. It appears that the thicker blade prevents a good solid connection of the Y-yolk with the slot in the chipbreaker. They do mate, but not very securely. I guess I should just clean, sharpen and try them, but has anyone else had a problem with blade slippage on these planes? I haven't seen much KK chatter on the porch. Any user opinions of these? The collectors in this area really pounce on KK items of any kind, but these two examples i have don't appear as well fitted as the average Stanley. Thanks, John ++++ End of thread 25087 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25088 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57535 (thread 25088) ---- From: JLMOORE@a... Date: 1999-02-12 03:53:00 Subject: FWW and Workbench Book Sale I stopped by a Restoration Hardware store (yuppie bahstad retail outlet with almost no real hardware, Jeff) this afternoon to kill time before meeting with a client and found 3 books that they were closing out. If there is one in your area, you might check it out. Here's what I got; FWW on Joinery - $3.99 FWW on Finishing and Refinishing - $4.17 The Workbench Book (hardcover) - $14.50 They had several other "FWW on..." books as well as The Toolbox Book and The Workshop book, but these were still at the normal YB prices. Maybe these will come down later as well. John Moore ++++ End of thread 25088 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25089 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57538 (thread 25089) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-02-12 05:15:00 Subject: Re: Bottom Feeder Challenge/ the book / part 1 / maybe Well, how about kind of a sideways story? You know the kind, where it isn't really a instantaneous score, but goes on for years and everybody really comes out ok in the end? I once knew a guy named Milt. Milton Keversan was the town druggist. He had occupied the position since some time before the big flood of 64. The 64 flood marks all time in Happy Camp. It's the long term calendar by which history is placed. Happy Camp is a regular berg. But an important berg. The river is about 150 miles long. Hoopa (with connections to Eureka) is at one end and Yreka at the other. In the very middle is Happy Camp. Exactly close to nuthin' But is serves 50 miles of sparsely populated river community. So everybody knew Milt. I became aquatinted with him when he was desperate for something or other and had to come seek me out. I guess I'm kind of anti social. Oh, I know everybody. Get along perfect with very nearly almost everybody in my immediate (Happy Camp jurisdiction, 20 or miles in every direction) neighborhood. Really would just as soon not know them any more intimately than I can ordinarily avoid, if you know what I mean. Except for a handful, of course. Milt was one of the handful. He was the original junk hoarder of town. He had so much junk you just might have trouble absorbing the depth of it. It literally took years to see it all. He was a 5 buck a truckload kind of guy. Getting 5 bucks out of Milt took most of a half day of patient haggling. I got to know him at about the end of his hard drinking times. Times that had kept him tottering along the fine edge of outrageous without quite toppling over the line for many previous years. When he knew all he could bring to the next stage of his life was the insight he'd paid for with his liver and his time. And all the junk he'd accumulated as he went along. He decided to build a town. Actually he'd decided to build a town many years before but it was half hearted at best. It all started when Johnnie Schizo got sentenced to community service by Judge Connors for foolish behavior for the unpteenth time. Judge didn't know what to do with him and so made him go over to Milt's place and make himself useful. Milt didn't know exactly what to do with him either. But he eventually settled on a bottle house. Made from old bottles. Johnnie went to the saloon (a place he was aquatinted with), who saved everything they opened, and scrounged the town dump too. He didn't have a clue as to how to build diddly squat, let alone a masonry structure. So he just mixed up some mortar and started right in. Not level or square in even an unintentional way. Hardly a footing to speak of, naturally. It was roughly 12X12. The judge was really hot over whatever it was Johnnie did. Really hot. I assume dire threats were made in the sternest possible manner Paul Connors (retired carpenter, who just took the judge job by neighborhood consensus back then) could summon. Johnnie was earnest about it. He worked steady most of one summer and part of the fall too. Then, well, transportation started to get to be a factor what with winter just around the corner and all. And he must have had about all he could take of the semi wagon he was on too. So he kind of faded from sight for a while. Not too worry though. Time marches on, and on the third sentence the building was a full height shell. Made entirely from empty whiskey bottles (new ones). And complete with flower boxes and steps and a bordered path all of the same material. Next came a travesty of justice. A hippie, name of Bill Merrill was arrested and felony charged for an embarrassingly small amount of marijuana. The amount wouldn't really have done a medium sized bluebird much good, but this was the early 70's and it might as well have been 1959 in Happy Camp. It's kind of a closed community for the simple fact that nobody else wanders in much. They'd be welcome, but you almost have to come here for a reason. It's a hard place to find. So times are slow to change. This is putting it politely as I can. Bill was dealt with most unreasonably and forced to finish the building including a semi-seetrough greenhouse type fiberglass roof for the light. Bottle house was up. After whatever emergency he needed me for was dealt with, I started getting to know Milt better. He'd lived by conniving with, and getting the best of about every itinerant carpenter, plumber, electrician and lay about that ever was hard up for cash before he met me. Unfortunately the best he could connive was, in a word, substandard. I wasn't real desperate. I had a clientele of very loyal customers about then and extra work was something I'd rather avoid if I could. Did I mention I'd rather be lazy than rich? Rich would be great of course, but not if I have to go too far out of my way. At least that's how it was back then. Little by little, avoidance was futile since I had to have medicine occasionally like everyone else, I started fixing all the negligent errors perpetrated on the Kevershans It was strictly their own fault by underpaying unskilled help all their lives that they were in such a state. But state they were in. It was a small town country palace on the hill by the look of it. A big house with a shake roof (3 different roofers worked on it before it was done). Really only 3 bedrooms, but the rooms were decent sized and there were a few extra rooms too. For a town with no stoplight and a, no more than middling standard of living, his house was big enough. But hardly anything really looked right or worked reliably. Say, you know what just occurred to me? There really could be a story coming up and tools would have to weave their way into it, but maybe this is too long for this forum. Anyone want to hear more? Has anyone read this far? In case you have, a town was built, and I was involved, just so the ending to this isn't totally abrupt. yours Scott ---- Start of Message 57553 (thread 25089) ---- From: estuary@w... (Larry Holland) Date: 1999-02-12 12:38:00 Subject: Re: Bottom Feeder Challenge/ the book / part 1 / maybe At 9:15 PM 2/11/99, scott grandstaff wrote: > Say, you know what just occurred to me? There really could be a >story coming up and tools would have to weave their way into it, but >maybe this is too long for this forum. Anyone want to hear more? Has >anyone read this far? In case you have, a town was built, and I was >involved, just so the ending to this isn't totally abrupt. > yours > Scott Keep 'er comin'. - Larry Holland estuary@w... ---- Start of Message 57575 (thread 25089) ---- From: "Gary P. Johns" Date: 1999-02-12 14:54:00 Subject: Re: Bottom Feeder Challenge/ the book / part 1 / maybe AHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Don't you dare stop at this point!!!! Obligatory OT content: I'm standing over my workbench book opened to a picture of Scott working on his stool. (Loud speaker from outside the shop.....OK GARY...PUT THE #8 DOWN! YOU'VE GOT SO MUCH TO WORK FOR!) Gary Johns OldTool Heaven "RustHunter" http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9147 ++++ End of thread 25089 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25090 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57543 (thread 25090) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-02-12 06:13:00 Subject: Whetstones I have been picking up old whetstones because they are in my price range (<$2). All , of course, are users lest I be accused of collecting. But I don't know much about them, and I am starting to appreciate the variety of different stones the older ones were made of. Is there any kind of a book or treatise on them? ++++ End of thread 25090 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25091 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57547 (thread 25091) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-02-12 10:04:00 Subject: Re: yet another bench posting At 07:27 AM 1/7/99 -0500, Steve_Bussell@i... wrote: >Here's a URL for a place in CA, in case anyone is interested. The tops are only >1 3/4" thick, but seem pretty reasonably priced. I have not bought one, so I >can't >speak for the quality. I think these may be the ones that Woodcraft Supply >carries >in their stores and catalog. >http://www.brandnew.net/page2.html Is this really a good deal? They are selling 6'x2'x1.75" slab for $185. (1.75" is a bit wimpy - I would be wanting two of these to make a nice thick slab.) However, this price comes to about $8.80/bf. I realize this is planed flat and finished but still, we /are/ woodworkers and maple boards suitable for a bench top can be had for less than half this cost - a lot less than half in some parts. Adam ---- Start of Message 57548 (thread 25091) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-02-12 10:13:00 Subject: Re: yet another bench posting Why not make up benchtop by laminating 2x4 construction grade pine? It's cheap, stiff , easy to plane and you can afford any benchtop size you want. The disadvantage is that its soft. Just such a bench appeared in an article about Seth Yanofsky in a recent issue of Woodworker. It looked beatiful. He obvously had taken care in selecting his lumber. His bench even included a sliding dog ( sorta like a tail vise with no jaws) that he had made from a veneer press clamp. Adam ---- Start of Message 57551 (thread 25091) ---- From: b2d@e... (Duke of URLs) Date: 1999-02-12 19:13:00 Subject: Re: yet another bench posting Steve Bussell wrote: >>Here's a URL for a place in CA, in case anyone is interested. http://www.brandnew.net/page2.html Adam Whiteson wrote: >Is this really a good deal? They are selling 6'x2'x1.75" slab for $185. >(1.75" is a bit wimpy - I would be wanting two of these to make a nice >thick slab.) However, this price comes to about $8.80/bf. I realize this >is planed flat and finished but still, we /are/ woodworkers and maple >boards suitable for a bench top can be had for less than half this cost - a >lot less than half in some parts. Adam makes a good point but then again buying the top does leave one with some extra time to buy other tools. That is what it's all about after all. I mean surely no one actually believes we work the wood. Anyway being the resident Bottommost of the Bottom FeedersŪ (BotBF) I literally stumbled upon this URL for a company in Kentucky (Daniel Boone kilt a bar there Jeff) that I believe may be the source for the tops from BrandNew as well as some other catalog suppliers. http://www.awp.net/ As an example the 2' X 6' top cited above is sold here for $136. Enough of a savings to consider the shipping to be free? Might even be worth someone's efforts to contact them about doing thicker tops and report back to the group? Keith Bohn >From down by the mailbox so's I don't get in the way of the spittoons ++++ End of thread 25091 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25092 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57550 (thread 25092) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-12 10:13:00 Subject: holding wood for planing Dear all, Has anyone on the list made the "wedge" wood holding system by Don McKinley (Sp?) featured in the hallowed workbench book? So far on my plywood bench (tail-vice-less) I've made do with a small length of 1/4" plywood clamped across the end, for a plane-stop. But if you want to take "slicing" cuts, this doesn'y work. BugBear (PS. Is this on-topic? It's not strictly OT, just hand-tool woodworking) ++++ End of thread 25092 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25093 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57552 (thread 25093) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-12 12:26:00 Subject: need an "o" tool Every week my daughters school does a new letter.. this week's is "O".. the deal is on friday they have to bring something in for "show and share" that begins with that letter... so far, amost every weel we have been able to find some tool starting w/ the appropriate letter... but we are draying a blank here..... I have stood inthe shop looking and thinking for hte past hour and cannot come up with anything... help!!! only 1/2 hopur till we need to leave for school!!! ---- Start of Message 57554 (thread 25093) ---- From: Tim Fuss Date: 1999-02-12 12:47:00 Subject: Re: need an "o" tool John pleads for a little help for SWMBETTE: > Every week my daughters school does a new letter.. this week's is "O".. > the deal is on Friday they have to bring something in for "show and share" > that begins with that letter... Hey John, how about an outcannel gouge? ---- Start of Message 57555 (thread 25093) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-12 12:50:00 Subject: Re: need an "o" tool At 7:47 AM -0500 2/12/99, Tim Fuss wrote: >John pleads for a little help for SWMBETTE: >> Every week my daughters school does a new letter.. this week's is "O".. >Hey John, how about an outcannel gouge? not exactly "safe" for a Pre-School classroom ;-) ---- Start of Message 57556 (thread 25093) ---- From: "DuPrie, James" Date: 1999-02-12 12:54:00 Subject: RE: need an "o" tool ummm,.. how bout an "old" tool... heh. JD > -----Original Message----- > From: John A. Gunterman [mailto:spokeshave@m...] > Sent: Friday, February 12, 1999 7:26 AM > To: oldtools@l... > Subject: need an "o" tool > > > Every week my daughters school does a new letter.. this > week's is "O".. > > the deal is on friday they have to bring something in for > "show and share" > that begins with that letter... so far, amost every weel we > have been able > to find some tool starting w/ the appropriate letter... > > but we are draying a blank here..... I have stood inthe shop > looking and > thinking for hte past hour and cannot come up with anything... > > > help!!! > > only 1/2 hopur till we need to leave for school!!! > -- > John A. Gunterman > > Maybee, it's not too late, > to learn how to love, > and forget how to hate. > - O.O. > > -- > > ---- Start of Message 57561 (thread 25093) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-02-12 13:45:00 Subject: Re: need an "o" tool Well, John's undoubtedly already left, but... Don't you have an Osage Orange mallet ? I believe I even have plans for the thing. ---- Start of Message 57562 (thread 25093) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-12 13:45:00 Subject: Re: need an "o" tool > John pleads for a little help for SWMBETTE: > > > Every week my daughters school does a new letter.. this week's is "O".. > > > the deal is on Friday they have to bring something in for "show and share" > > that begins with that letter... > > > Hey John, how about an outcannel gouge? OGee moulding plane? BugBear ---- Start of Message 57564 (thread 25093) ---- From: Aaron Ionta Date: 1999-02-12 14:12:00 Subject: Re: need an "o" tool probaly too late but how about an 'O' ring streatcher Orb*t*l disk sander :O Osage mallette Ogeee Profile Wooden Moulder Oscillating -------fill in te blank Open ended wrench that's al my Brain can produce at this hour Aaron taak John A. Gunterman wrote: > Every week my daughters school does a new letter.. this week's is "O".. > > the deal is on friday they have to bring something in for "show and share" > that begins with that letter... so far, amost every weel we have been able > to find some tool starting w/ the appropriate letter... > > but we are draying a blank here..... I have stood inthe shop looking and > thinking for hte past hour and cannot come up with anything... > > help!!! > > only 1/2 hopur till we need to leave for school!!! > -- > John A. Gunterman > > Maybee, it's not too late, > to learn how to love, > and forget how to hate. > - O.O. > > -- ---- Start of Message 57565 (thread 25093) ---- From: tkissam@c... (Todd Kissam) Date: 1999-02-12 14:13:00 Subject: Re: need an "o" tool Probably too late but... Ogee Oil can Oilstone Old woman's tooth Organ builder's tools Ovalo On-the-bench fillester Offset tote Oar plane odd jobs tool (stanley) Offset gouge/chisel open ended wrench optical ... ore pick outside caliper oval file/scrapper oyster knife oracle (very primative) Todd ---- Start of Message 57567 (thread 25093) ---- From: Walter Barry Date: 1999-02-12 17:14:00 Subject: RE: need an "o" tool > John pleads for a little help for SWMBETTE: > > Every week my daughters school does a new letter.. this week's is "O".. > > the deal is on Friday they have to bring something in for "show and share" > > that begins with that letter... > > Hey John, how about an outcannel gouge? > OGee moulding plane? How 'bout an Odd-Jobs, and maybe the kids can use their imagination to come up with a few more uses for it. Walter ---- Start of Message 57569 (thread 25093) ---- From: Ted Thomas Date: 1999-02-12 14:16:00 Subject: Re: need an "o" tool At 07:26 AM 2/12/99 -0500, you wrote: >Every week my daughters school does a new letter.. this week's is "O".. > >the deal is on friday they have to bring something in for "show and share" >that begins with that letter... so far, amost every weel we have been able >to find some tool starting w/ the appropriate letter... > >but we are draying a blank here..... I have stood inthe shop looking and >thinking for hte past hour and cannot come up with anything... > > >help!!! > >only 1/2 hopur till we need to leave for school!!! >-- >John A. Gunterman > Offset screwdriver ---- Start of Message 57572 (thread 25093) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-12 14:30:00 Subject: Re: need an "o" tool Problem Solved! I had a Osage Orange panel... we brought that along with a "o" lettering die and an Osage Mallet. now the kids can drive the teacher crazy pounding O's into the wood ;_) ---- Start of Message 57574 (thread 25093) ---- From: "Matthew J. Prusik, Jr." Date: 1999-02-12 14:35:00 Subject: Re: need an "o" tool Oil Filter Wrench? Matt -----Original Message----- From: John A. Gunterman To: oldtools@l... Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 7:34 AM Subject: need an "o" tool >Every week my daughters school does a new letter.. this week's is "O".. > >the deal is on friday they have to bring something in for "show and share" >that begins with that letter... so far, amost every weel we have been able >to find some tool starting w/ the appropriate letter... > >but we are draying a blank here..... I have stood inthe shop looking and >thinking for hte past hour and cannot come up with anything... > > >help!!! > >only 1/2 hopur till we need to leave for school!!! >-- >John A. Gunterman > >Maybee, it's not too late, >to learn how to love, >and forget how to hate. > - O.O. > >-- > ---- Start of Message 57579 (thread 25093) ---- From: elschaffer@j... Date: 1999-02-12 15:44:00 Subject: Re: need an "o" tool John: An Old Woman's Tooth? An Ogee Plane? An Oilstone? An ovolo plane? --Erv Sawwwwwwwwz (Yep--dug these out of Salaman's Dictionary of Tools) ---- Start of Message 57600 (thread 25093) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1999-02-12 18:02:00 Subject: Re: need an "o" tool On Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:14:24 -0800 Walter Barry writes: [snip] > >How 'bout an Odd-Jobs, and maybe the kids can use >their imagination to come up with a few more uses for it. > I would like to hear some comments on how useful these are. Regards, Steve - thinking it would have been funny if Goldfinger's Odd Job had hurled a Stanley #1 at Bond, James Bond. ---- Start of Message 57647 (thread 25093) ---- From: FrankSronce Date: 1999-02-13 16:02:00 Subject: Re: need an "o" tool John, How about an Old Woman's Tooth. Not SWMBO's!!! Frank (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) "John A. Gunterman" wrote: > > Every week my daughters school does a new letter.. this week's is "O".. > > the deal is on friday they have to bring something in for "show and share" > that begins with that letter... so far, amost every weel we have been able > to find some tool starting w/ the appropriate letter... > > but we are draying a blank here..... I have stood inthe shop looking and > thinking for hte past hour and cannot come up with anything... ++++ End of thread 25093 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25094 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57559 (thread 25094) ---- From: Jim Thoreson Date: 1999-02-12 13:15:00 Subject: Fire damage?!??! Gentle Galoots, How screwed up would a plane be that was in a fire where the front and rear tote were burned off and no japanning is left?? Just wondering. [ I have seen one, not own one. ;^) ] Jim Thoreson (PS: This is not a "burn baby burn transitional inferno" one either) ---- Start of Message 57560 (thread 25094) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-02-12 13:36:00 Subject: Re: Fire damage?!??! At 8:15 AM -0500 2/12/99, Jim Thoreson wrote: >Gentle Galoots, > How screwed up would a plane be that was in a fire where the front and >rear tote were burned off and no japanning is left?? > Just wondering. [ I have seen one, not own one. ;^) ] Ha! Ask Jimmy Reina about the #6 hanging on the wall of his retail shop, then consider some lesser but still problematic degree of distortion in the casting. Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 57597 (thread 25094) ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1999-02-12 18:36:00 Subject: Re: Fire damage?!??! On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Jim Thoreson wrote: > Gentle Galoots, > > How screwed up would a plane be that was in a fire where the front and > rear tote were burned off and no japanning is left?? > I have a Scottish infill casting which was (according to Bob Howard at St. James Bay tool) in a fire. He said all it does is slightly stabilize the metal (cast iron, in this case). What a fire would do to a thinner-casting Maerican style plane, I dunno. ++++ End of thread 25094 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25095 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57571 (thread 25095) ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 1999-02-12 14:21:00 Subject: Big Holes In Hard Wood? Esteemed Galoots, OK, I'm not having much luck finding auger bits above size #20 (1 1/4") and expansion bits won't cut it in thick maple. So what did the old guys use for boring big holes in hard wood? Big T-handle augers? Forstner bits? What? **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Size Does Matter Excerpts From The 1942 Disston Saw Manual are featured at The Galoot's Progress: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ---- Start of Message 57582 (thread 25095) ---- From: RayTSmith@a... Date: 1999-02-12 16:08:00 Subject: Re: Big Holes In Hard Wood? In a message dated 99-02-12 09:26:41 EST, TomPrice@a... writes: << OK, I'm not having much luck finding auger bits above size #20 (1 1/4") and expansion bits won't cut it in thick maple. So what did the old guys use for boring big holes in hard wood? Big T-handle augers? Forstner bits? What? >> My James Swan catalog lists : Ring Augers (for straight wooden handle) up to 2.5 inches Boring machine augers up to 2 inches Cast steel machine bits up to 32 16ths Brace-style bits: Expansive bits with extra cutters that go up to a 4-5 inch size #40 Irwin pattern up to 32 16ths #20 single twist up to 32 16ths 4 models of Jennings pattern bits up to 32 16ths, these differ mostly in finish and size of lip. #90 Cooks patent up to 32 16ths Doesn't mention whether any of 'em are specifically for hardwood, though. Ring Augers might be worth checking out, but my impression is they were mostly for green wood, boring holes in fence posts and such ? Although I seem to remember them being used for boring bung holes in white oak whiskey barrels. Ray T. Smith ---- Start of Message 57590 (thread 25095) ---- From: elschaffer@j... Date: 1999-02-12 17:39:00 Subject: Re: Big Holes In Hard Wood? Number 1, they normally were drilling big holes in "green" hardwood timbers-----which is a heck of alot easier to accomplish than with "dry". Hence, large augers were "de rigeur" in timber frame construction! Often one can find them at farm auctions in the midwest and northeast! Will they cut large holes in dry hardwoods? They might in Aspen/ Poplar, but not oak, maple, etc. One would almost need to mill the wood out after drilling a series of smaller holes inside the diameter of the final hole you want. --ErvSawwwwwz ---- Start of Message 57605 (thread 25095) ---- From: Jerry Davis Date: 1999-02-12 19:59:00 Subject: Re: Big Holes In Hard Wood? In <19990212.104022.-182485.2.elschaffer@j...>, on 02/12/99 at 10:39 AM, elschaffer@j... said: >Will they cut large holes in dry hardwoods? They might in Aspen/ >Poplar, but not oak, maple, etc. One would almost need to mill the I've bored 1.5 inch holes in dry white oak with t-handle augers. It was a workout, but doable. I was making a little split log bench (like Roy uses) and needed holes about 3 inches deep. I had the augers and 'just did it'. Instead of shavings I got cool little half moon chips. Jerry ---- Start of Message 57609 (thread 25095) ---- From: Mike Yazel Date: 1999-02-12 20:46:00 Subject: Re: Big Holes In Hard Wood? TomPrice@a... wrote: > > Esteemed Galoots, > > OK, I'm not having much luck finding auger bits above size #20 (1 1/4") > and expansion bits won't cut it in thick maple. So what did the old guys > use for boring big holes in hard wood? Big T-handle augers? Forstner > bits? What? I can tell you i drilled more 2" holes than I care to admit in the in 100 year old hardwood timbers I used in the building of my shop. You can do it but you will want a boring machine such as a Miller Falls or a Boss which has the advantage of gear reduction. If you keep the bits sharp and the lead screw clean and shiny with a bit of oil on it at the start of a series of holes. Maple is tough, maybe the toughest, beech next with oak the nicest to work in the old stuff. Green would be better but you can rework the old stuff with patience and muscle. I'm getting ready to reraise a barn built in 1850 which I acquired for free and more work than you can imagine. I drilled out more 1 1/2 draw bored pins with a brace and bit than I wanted. Drilling end grain in 150 year old pins is not a good time but when they won't drive out you have no choice. You can work the old stuff, just take your time and keep everything sharp! Mike Yazel > **************************** > Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) > Size Does Matter > Excerpts From The 1942 Disston Saw Manual are featured at The Galoot's > Progress: > http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html > > -- ---- Start of Message 57699 (thread 25095) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-15 03:33:00 Subject: Re: Big Holes In Hard Wood? > > >Will they cut large holes in dry hardwoods? They might in Aspen/ > >Poplar, but not oak, maple, etc. One would almost need to mill the > > I've bored 1.5 inch holes in dry white oak with t-handle augers. It was > a workout, but doable. I was making a little split log bench (like Roy > uses) and needed holes about 3 inches deep. I had the augers and > 'just did it'. Instead of shavings I got cool little half moon chips. > > Jerry Correct me if I'm wrong, but all this 1.5, 2" stuff is just playing at holes. If you want to think about BIG holes, dig out your references on elm water piping.Which was 6" logs with 4" holes ALL THE WAY DOWN THE LOG. BugBear. ++++ End of thread 25095 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25096 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57573 (thread 25096) ---- From: "John L. Odom" Date: 1999-02-12 14:41:00 Subject: BURNED TOOLS I spent 17 years as a Fire and Explosion Investigator and during that time aquired many of my old tools from the dump truck taking debris to the dump. None have colector value, but with cleaning and heat treating in some cases (edge tools) they are my users. A plane usually needs lapping. John Odom ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ++++ End of thread 25096 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25097 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57577 (thread 25097) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-12 15:17:00 Subject: Shop Stool Competition Greetings GG's This "Bottom Feeder Competition" has inspired me to throw down the gauntlet for best shop stool design. I've seen 'em made from one side of a rear axle housing; office chairs; kitchen stools, horse hames and tractor seats.... what do you use, like? I was looking in the MSC catalog at this stand up stool, kind of the portable misericord of Yuppie galootdom, and I sez to myself TWO HUNDRED AND SEVENTY FIVE DOLLARS FOR A SHOP STOOL!!!!!!!!!! WHAT!!!!!!!?????? Still, it was a nifty looking design..... SO; since I have a week between terms coming up..... if I were to break out the scrap and build something galootish...... whattaya have? like? Thanks Tom (who is now too old and tired and "blessed" around the waist to stand for 14 hours on concrete on my day off (O the long awaited "shop tie" break!) ---- Start of Message 57581 (thread 25097) ---- From: "Chuck Myers" Date: 1999-02-12 16:16:00 Subject: Re: Shop Stool Competition > Tom sez: > >This "Bottom Feeder Competition" has inspired me to throw down the gauntlet >for best shop stool design. [slurp, burp] I was over at Rich McCleery's house one day. Rich cuts/splits/sells firewood among other things. We were out by the [huge] woodpile, sittin' 'n' jawin'. Sez I: "This stump's really comfortable." Sez Rich: "You want it?" Sez I: "Sure." He even helped me throw it into the back of the van I was driving at the time. Chuck ---- Start of Message 57586 (thread 25097) ---- From: "David Barnett" Date: 1999-02-12 17:02:00 Subject: Re: Shop Stool Competition Tom Johnson wrote: >I've seen 'em made from one side of a rear >axle housing; office chairs; kitchen stools, horse hames and tractor >seats.... what do you use, like? This is what most often intercedes between me and the floor: http://www.mindspring.com/~djbarnett/Shopbench.jpg Note that when so engaged, it is pretty much an edge to edge affair. For those of lesser dimension, it would no doubt seem a 'doublewide', but to one of my considerable avoirdupois, it's a stool. Birch, maple, walnut. David Barnett Northampton, MA ---- Start of Message 57634 (thread 25097) ---- From: "Tim Swihart" Date: 1999-02-13 05:53:00 Subject: Re: Shop Stool Competition Tom Johnson wrote: > This "Bottom Feeder Competition" has inspired me to throw down the gauntlet > for best shop stool design. I've seen 'em made from one side of a rear > axle housing; office chairs; kitchen stools, horse hames and tractor > seats.... what do you use, like? I was looking in the MSC catalog at this > stand up stool, kind of the portable misericord of Yuppie galootdom, and I > sez to myself TWO HUNDRED AND SEVENTY FIVE DOLLARS FOR A SHOP > STOOL!!!!!!!!!! WHAT!!!!!!!?????? > > Still, it was a nifty looking design..... > SO; since I have a week between terms coming up..... if I were to break > out the scrap and build something galootish...... whattaya have? like? Like lots of folks that have taken some of Mike Dunbar's chair making classes, those Windsor stools he has floating around his shop are what I consider the only "true" shop stool. :-) Mike turned those stools into an article for AWW recently. Check the Feb '99 issues, starting on page 61. Tim S. ---- Start of Message 57669 (thread 25097) ---- From: Richard Burton Date: 1999-02-14 02:57:00 Subject: Re: Shop Stool Competition My bottom feeding bench stool. 25 cents at auction. http://www.voicenet.com/~rburton/stool/mystool.jpg ---- Start of Message 57672 (thread 25097) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-14 03:54:00 Subject: Re: Shop Stool Competition >My bottom feeding bench stool. 25 cents at auction. > >http://www.voicenet.com/~rburton/stool/mystool.jpg > WARNING!!!!! Any galoot to busy scrolling through and deleting messages without reading them will live in perpetual grief and remorse if they find out that they missed this one. THIS is a SHOP STOOL! Richard informs us that it dented his tool fund to the tune of 50 tarnished coppers Note that it comes complete with several feet of wire.... a selection of nuts and bolts and fender washers, and it incorporates a storage rack in its base (no doubt for added mass and stability ...VERY clever) All this and aesthetically pleasing to the eye...... IMPROVE ON THAT MSC! Tom (who likes this better than the stump idea.....) ---- Start of Message 57687 (thread 25097) ---- From: snoe749@i... Date: 1999-02-14 16:42:00 Subject: Re: Shop Stool Competition [snip] > WARNING!!!!! > THIS is a SHOP STOOL! > Richard informs us [snip] it comes complete with several feet of wire.... a selection of > nuts and bolts and fender washers, and it incorporates a storage rack in > its base [snip per the fascinatingly complete FAQ's] The location of that fender washer just...umn...raises questions for the real comfort-quotient. Steve Noe, in Indianapolis, who'd prolly add a cushion. snoe749@i... ---- Start of Message 57758 (thread 25097) ---- From: DoveTailed@a... Date: 1999-02-16 13:50:00 Subject: Re: Shop Stool Competition I must confess deleting a lot, well, most actually, of the string on shop stools. The toilet seat caught my eye, however, and after doing some high- stepping around my shop last night I came to the realization that my daughter's puppy, Elvis, left a stool in my shop that takes bottom-feeding to a depth previously realized only by Devine. Quentin Wheeler dovetailed@a... ++++ End of thread 25097 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25098 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57580 (thread 25098) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-02-12 16:00:00 Subject: Re: Bottom Feeder Challenge/ the book / part 2 Well, Milt's house and his car and his unbelievably cheesy toupee that left a stark glue line running across his forehead, needed tending. I worked on a strict cash-in-full at the end of each day basis, knowing full well his previous reputation. But he always paid up with a smile, and then immediately tried to weasel me into running across the street to the town's only market for a bag of sugar or whatever. Sometimes I did, sometimes not. I never built any of the buildings in the town. Every one was a contract negotiation and all but one were built for what turned out to be pennies per hour after the hapless victim realized what they'd got themselves into in a moment of desperation. Many for even less as his usual MO was to pay up half the agreed upon contract in advance and most simply disappeared somewhere along the way when they figured it out. I finished all of them though. One by one. Wired them for power and made the water system work he'd connived someone else into digging all the ditches for. Made the roofs watertight, the doors work and the windows open and placed the trim to look authentic early 1900's style. There was a saloon, the first to go up after the bottle house. A print shop, drugstore, church, mercantile (general store), blacksmith, fire house (actually a big carport with an old fire engine, WW1 ambulance and a hand pumped fire wagon in it), carriage house, jail and school all told. Plus there were outlying buildings like a huge barn that had mostly come with the place and a garage where Harriette's (Mrs. K) 49 Mercury convertible lived, a greenhouse and a little workshop out back of the main house. And a miniature golf course. Since the town was built the way it was, material outlay was mostly in the form of nails. Milt usually had someone on the site of any old building coming down around town to scrounge whatever could be had for free. Part of the contract price, of course. He tried at least a million times to get me to foreman the building of the town. I wasn't particularly interested in spending that much time with the characters he dealt with. Besides I knew what the outcome would be at the very bitter end and I had no intention of joining in. So, I'd just take care of more important things like the store and the house and of course Christmas, and then go in after the sucker had had his fill and clean up the disaster. Christmas for the town of Happy Camp was sponsored by Milt and arraigned by Doris (longtime clerk and obviously quite the tasty dish in her, long ago, day) and me. We got the catalogs early and poured over every one. Selections were made and the merchandise ordered well in advance. Extras were always included in case an order or even a part of one failed to make it in time. Milt had the best Nativity characters to be seen hereabouts, so every year, I'd carve a new manger right out in front of the store so all could watch it go up. There were also a huge Santa and reindeer outfit, big angels, and snowmen that would be put up high on the building. Add in miles of tinsel, multi miles of lights and cover every square inch of ceiling inside the store with something bright to boot. We had plenty of middle priced stuff for sale, and some fairly expensive, but the most painstakingly chosen was the cheap stuff. If you had no more than a dollar to spend, there was absolutely no excuse to deprive a child in our town. Well, the day eventually came when it was time for Milt to retire. He'd had a heart attack which he survived just fine, but Jr. Kevershan (a self absorbed weasel of the highest magnitude) took the opportunity to force the old guy out. Mostly he was hoping to sell the building, business and real estate and get control of the funds. There were probably 200 loads of antiques and junk that went up the hill to the "town". This was the choicer stuff that had piled up inside the store to the point of making it hard to move around in there by the end. And it was big store. Good sized by city standards, but gigantic by country measurement. I did take foreman for this part. After a couple weeks of sorting, I either was closely overseeing, or directly loading and unloading the multitude of items from grand pianos to rust covered curling irons and more than everything in-between. Most of another year went to installing and arranging the town, now fortified with the best any drunkard had ever sold for a pint in the last 30 years. There was one magic day. The Southern Oregon Hysterical Society chartered a bus. This probably depleted their budget for years to come, but it was well spent. They came for a picnic. The town was in the best shape it ever would be. Milt hadn't sold so much as a toothpick from the hoard yet. The wooden sidewalks connecting the buildings were navigable without fear. The soda fountain in the drugstore was complete and operational. Printing presses ready for action. The saloon was lined with genuine antique whiskey bottles and a few in there were actually valuable. Copper washing machines in the mercantile, school desks waiting for occupancy with an inkwell thoughtfully provided for each. The jail was ready for characters in every detail except the door had no lock and the guns had long since lost their firepower. Miniature golf was played. The huge barbecue was fired. The dance floor was filled to capacity. Tables were set in the shade and set in the sun, no shortage. Film was made available. It was a symphony of eccentricity. Milt, Harriet and me, dressed to the 9's. Milt is gone now. Harriette has relocated to her favorite granddaughters. The place stands empty, rotting away. It's for sale, btw, but Jr. might be involved in the negotiations. Over the years there were gifts and swaps and various haggles between us. I have a few momentos. The few very best of the antique whiskey and medicine bottles (another passion of mine). A plow plane, a Bedrock or 2, Japanese compass plane from town, type 2 Stanley #20, sack of block planes and hammer heads. A Davis level and enough blacksmith equipment to keep me from having to look for more (want to see a 125 pound swage block?) . Milt's father's gold pocket watch (he was watch repairman, so there were plenty to go around, but the one I have is one of the best). Lots of things. And a little book made by the SOHS. Pictures of "the" day. There fights but more laughter throughout. It was a good time for me. yours Scott ---- Start of Message 57592 (thread 25098) ---- From: "Nance, Joe" Date: 1999-02-12 18:00:00 Subject: RE: Bottom Feeder Challenge/ the book / part 2 The book, huh? In two parts even. Things must be a little slow out there in Happy Camp. Was there any OT content here? Joe > Well, Milt's house and his car and his unbelievably cheesy toupee > that left a stark glue line running across his forehead, needed > tending. I worked on a strict cash-in-full at the end of each day > ---- Start of Message 57598 (thread 25098) ---- From: Jack Kamishlian Date: 1999-02-12 18:58:00 Subject: Re: Bottom Feeder Challenge/ the book / part 2 Scott, Thanks for part 1 and 2. Jack ++++ End of thread 25098 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25099 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57583 (thread 25099) ---- From: Ed_Balko@E... Date: 1999-02-12 16:34:00 Subject: A jurisdictional question Chuck wrote: "I was over at Rich McCleery's house one day. Rich cuts/splits/sells firewood among other things. We were out by the [huge] woodpile, sittin' 'n' jawin'. Sez I: "This stump's really comfortable." Sez Rich: "You want it?" Sez I: "Sure." He even helped me throw it into the back of the van I was driving at the time." THIS is bottomfeeding - many of entries in the Bottomfeeding Contest were spectacular gloats. Ed Balko Middletown, NJ Eagerly awaiting the photograph of Paddy shaking Omar's hand on the dock as the shellac is being unloaded ---- Start of Message 57587 (thread 25099) ---- From: "Chuck Myers" Date: 1999-02-12 17:06:00 Subject: Re: A jurisdictional question >Ed points out: > >Chuck wrote: > >"I was over at Rich McCleery's house one day. Rich cuts/splits/sells >firewood among other things. We were out by the [huge] woodpile, >sittin' 'n' jawin'. > >Sez I: "This stump's really comfortable." > >Sez Rich: "You want it?" > >Sez I: "Sure." > >He even helped me throw it into the back of the van I was driving at >the time." > > >THIS is bottomfeeding - many of entries in the Bottomfeeding Contest were >spectacular gloats. I'd use a logical 'and' rather than a logical 'or'. It *is* possible to talk about stool design and bottom feed at the same time. %^) Come to think of it, there aren't many of the bottom feeder gloats I'd like to sit on for very long, or at all for that matter. "That pigsticker mortising chisel's nice, but it shore don't help the hemorrhoids none..." I'd be willing to bet that Walt hasn't once sat on his #1 (intentionally, at least), despite having fondled and stroked it lovingly from time to time... The point I didn't make very well--not at all, in fact--is that a plain old stump can work out a lot better than a meticulous design if it happens to be the right height and diameter, and most of all if it fits your lumps just so. If a fortuitous bit of serendipity allows one to bottom feed at the same time, it's all the better. Chuck ++++ End of thread 25099 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25100 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57584 (thread 25100) ---- From: "Paul Schobernd" Date: 1999-02-12 16:38:00 Subject: Degreasing With Lye In the process of doing some horse trading on some tools last evening the gentleman noticed that I had a disassembled post drill that was way greasy. I commented that I was going to cart it off to a friends garage and use his parts washer. He suggested an alternative--using a can of lye in a 5 gallon bucket of water--soak 2 days and then rinse with a hose. Has anybody had any experience using such a caustic substance for this purpose? There is no finish on this old Buffalo Forge drill so there is not much to worry about on that count, but I have a basic aversion to using lye--nasty stuff on a good day. Any feedback would be appreciated--except the sort that starts ou --what sort of d--mn fool are you. Paul Schobernd ---- Start of Message 57588 (thread 25100) ---- From: Bill Neely Date: 1999-02-12 17:36:00 Subject: Re: Degreasing With Lye I believe lye is the principle ingredient in compounds used in hot tanks. Oakite, etc. Also used in oven cleaners. Aluminum and lye are not a good mix. Bill Neely Paul Schobernd wrote: > > In the process of doing some horse trading on some tools last evening > the gentleman noticed that I had a disassembled post drill that was > way greasy. I commented that I was going to cart it off to a friends > garage and use his parts washer. > > He suggested an alternative--using a can of lye in a 5 gallon bucket > of water--soak 2 days and then rinse with a hose. Has anybody had any > experience using such a caustic substance for this purpose? There is > no finish on this old Buffalo Forge drill so there is not much to > worry about on that count, but I have a basic aversion to using > lye--nasty stuff on a good day. > > Any feedback would be appreciated--except the sort that starts ou > --what sort of d--mn fool are you. Paul Schobernd > > -- ---- Start of Message 57593 (thread 25100) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-12 18:04:00 Subject: Re: Degreasing With Lye >In the process of doing some horse trading on some tools last evening >the gentleman noticed that I had a disassembled post drill that was >way greasy. I commented that I was going to cart it off to a friends >garage and use his parts washer. > >He suggested an alternative--using a can of lye in a 5 gallon bucket >of water--soak 2 days and then rinse with a hose. Has anybody had any >experience using such a caustic substance for this purpose? Hi Paul and GG's, Personally, I'd first remove any machined steel that you cared a lot about, and if there are any babbit bearings in this thing methinks you should kiss them goodby (don't know that for sure, but that's my guess) .... but this was the accepted method for cleaning old cast iron years ago. The mechanic down the street from me used to have a 55 gal drum on blocks with this huge propane burner under it..... when he overhauled an engine, he first "boiled it out" in lye water....they came out looking like new gray cast iron.... PURTY Tom ---- Start of Message 57596 (thread 25100) ---- From: Bill Neely Date: 1999-02-12 18:35:00 Subject: Re: Degreasing With Lye Paint too! lye will eventually remove any kind of paint that I know of other than 'blue death' primer. Bill Neely Tom Johnson wrote: > > > >He suggested an alternative--using a can of lye in a 5 gallon bucket > >of water--soak 2 days and then rinse with a hose. Has anybody had any > >experience using such a caustic substance for this purpose? > The mechanic > down the street from me used to have a 55 gal drum on blocks with this huge > propane burner under it..... when he overhauled an engine, he first "boiled > it out" in lye water....they came out looking like new gray cast iron.... > PURTY > > Tom ---- Start of Message 57607 (thread 25100) ---- From: James Foster Date: 1999-02-12 20:11:00 Subject: Re: Degreasing With Lye Paul Schobernd wrote: > > > He suggested an alternative--using a can of lye in a 5 gallon bucket > of water--soak 2 days and then rinse with a hose. Has anybody had any > experience using such a caustic substance for this purpose? There is > no finish on this old Buffalo Forge drill so there is not much to > worry about on that count, but I have a basic aversion to using > lye--nasty stuff on a good day. > Well, there's the old "boil it in a TSP solution" trick, which is less nasty stuff and supposed to do a very good job of degreasing. Should remove the grunge and not hurt the finish (if there was any B^)) or bearings. ---- Start of Message 57618 (thread 25100) ---- From: "Philip Procter" Date: 1999-02-12 20:46:00 Subject: RE: Degreasing With Lye Degreasing with sodium hydroxide is a very well known procedure. it works quite well as long as the grease is a hydrocarbon. Most all are, the only exceptions I can think of right now are silicones. Chemically, the NaOH saponifies the wax, turning into soap. Literally. It's where the stories about taking old horses (old soap) etc came from. The soap then gets washed away by the water rinse. Your grease free tools the begin immediately to rust. Seriously, sodium hydroxide is VERY dangerous. It'll turn your skin to soap as quickly as it does grease. Be very careful of the hose rinse too. The water that comes off it, especially at first, is just as caustic as pure lye and if it splatters on something, like you or your car it will etch away little spots. The runoff will kill any plants it touches until it becomes very dilute. Rinse thoroughly, any remaining lye will dry to a powder when the water evaporates. The powder is, of course, pure lye. in otherwords, I'd recommend some other form of degreasing! Philip >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-oldtools@l... >>[mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Paul >>Schobernd >>Sent: Friday, February 12, 1999 12:39 PM >>To: OLDTOOLS@l... >>Subject: Degreasing With Lye >> >> >>In the process of doing some horse trading on some tools last evening >>the gentleman noticed that I had a disassembled post drill that was >>way greasy. I commented that I was going to cart it off to a friends >>garage and use his parts washer. >> >>He suggested an alternative--using a can of lye in a 5 gallon bucket >>of water--soak 2 days and then rinse with a hose. Has anybody had any >>experience using such a caustic substance for this purpose? There is >>no finish on this old Buffalo Forge drill so there is not much to >>worry about on that count, but I have a basic aversion to using >>lye--nasty stuff on a good day. >> >>Any feedback would be appreciated--except the sort that starts ou >>--what sort of d--mn fool are you. Paul Schobernd >> >>-- >> ---- Start of Message 57801 (thread 25100) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-02-17 01:55:00 Subject: Re: Degreasing With Lye On Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:46:17 -0400 "Philip Procter" writes: > >Seriously, sodium hydroxide is VERY dangerous. It'll turn your skin to >soap >as quickly as it does grease. Be very careful of the hose rinse too. >in otherwords, I'd recommend some other form of degreasing! > I agree with your observations about the hazards of lye. Most of the alternatives (certainly the effective ones) have their share of hazards too. One can use a light hydrocabon solvent but they are toxic and inflammible. Or one of those clorinated hydrocarbon solvents they destroy the ozone, and you liver, and are probably a carcinogen too. You can use a heavier hydrocarbon solvent like kerosine--that's merely combustible but it doesn't degreas very well either. Probably the safest are the water soluable degreasers--they don't work too well and have got to be a pretty foul plutant too. My point here is that one can choose any of sevveral alternatives literally choosing one's own poison. All can be used safely or unsafley so the most important thing is to know the hazards and how to mitigate them. This list is very helpful in that regard. ---- Start of Message 57829 (thread 25100) ---- From: "John McCoy" Date: 1999-02-17 14:35:00 Subject: Re: Degreasing With Lye On Feb 16, 8:55pm, Douglas S Caprette wrote: > Subject: Re: Degreasing With Lye > I agree with your observations about the hazards of lye. Most of the > alternatives > (certainly the effective ones) have their share of hazards too. One can > use a light > hydrocabon solvent but they are toxic and inflammible. Or one of those > clorinated hydrocarbon solvents they destroy the ozone, and you liver, > and are probably a carcinogen too. You can use a heavier hydrocarbon > solvent like kerosine--that's > merely combustible but it doesn't degreas very well either. Probably the > safest > are the water soluable degreasers--they don't work too well and have got > to be a pretty foul plutant too. It does occur to me that with something like lye, if you are careless you know right away (it hurts) and can do something. With most of the alternatives, the damage is silent, you don't know anything is happening until years later. John ++++ End of thread 25100 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25101 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57585 (thread 25101) ---- From: "William H. Fissell" Date: 1999-02-12 16:55:00 Subject: old 8 Two things, my friends bought a beater 8 t4 off ebay 1. It has an Erik Anton Berg iron. I know there are some EAB fans out there, so I might entertain a swap for the "right" iron 2. It has 10% japanning, and is *very* rusted, so it'll get zapped and then japanned, so I need to know how to get the magic japanning formula... I can't get at the archive, so sorry to waste bandwidth thanks to all Bill Fissell ++++ End of thread 25101 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25102 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57591 (thread 25102) ---- From: Sanford Moss Date: 1999-02-12 17:54:00 Subject: Re: Big Holes in Hard Wood Tom Price wrote: ************************** OK, I'm not having much luck finding auger bits above size #20 (1 1/4") and expansion bits won't cut it in thick maple. So what did the old guys use for boring big holes in hard wood? Big T-handle augers? Forstner bits? What? **************************** How big do you want to go, Tom? I've seen auger bits up to 2" (32) & maybe 36 (memory is dim right now), and T-handle augers that big. For much bigger holes you might think of boring a smaller hole and cutting to a line with a compass saw or pad saw. I also suspect, depending on the length and width of the stock, you could also think of making a short pipe by cutting a cylinder in some longer stock with a core box plane, then slice it to your thickness and glue up opposing pieces to make the "hole". That sounds like a lotta work though! ;-) Sandy who has a lot of time on his hands right now. **************************************** smoss@u... http://134.88.12.107/wworking.htm Phone (508) 999-8218 Fax (508) 999-8196 **************************************** ++++ End of thread 25102 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25103 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57595 (thread 25103) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-02-12 18:49:00 Subject: Re: Bottom Feeder Challenge/ the book / last time, promise Oops, It has just been pointed out that the old tool content was lacking from my tale. I assumed reading between the lines, but just in case. The town was a historical recreation. About every trick in the book was employed in it's building. No pitsaw, but broad axe, froe, hatchets and drawknives. Augers, planes, spokeshaves and saws of many configurations saw use. This is just the short list. I certainly won't say no electrons lost their mobility over it, but like I said, every trick in the book. yours, Scott * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, 63742 Applegate Dr., Happy Camp, CA 96039 * scottg@s... PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/ ++++ End of thread 25103 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25104 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57601 (thread 25104) ---- From: John Wallace Date: 1999-02-12 19:27:00 Subject: Re:Restoration Hdwe. Following a recent post - went by Res. Hdwe today. Acquired a FWW on Hand Tools marked $4.95 - their computer showed additional 50% off. OK. Many other books appear to have secret discounts. Also an NSF rated Class II oven mitt, on sale at 1/2 price, to handle my new Tony Seo provided Stanley R&L 5 1/2. Thanks, Tony. John Wallace Birmingham AL ++++ End of thread 25104 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25105 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57602 (thread 25105) ---- From: "David Boreham" Date: 1999-02-12 19:28:00 Subject: Saw questions After watching the video twice, and one success story with sharpening a saw, I dug out all my flea market saw finds last night and re-examined them. First, is there an information resource for saws, similar to the Stanley Blood and Gore ? Mine are mostly Diston, so information limited to that manufacturer would be fine. I have two crosscut handsaws: a D-23 and a D-42. The D-23 is much lighter than the D-42. What were these two different weights of saw used for ? The D-23 isn't quite straight---it has a little kink about half way along its length. Is there any chance of straightening it ? How ? I also have a 5tpi Diston ripsaw (I can't make out the etching clearly enough to say what model---it's big though). It cuts well, but is set to make a rather wide kerf (about 1/8"). Is there a way to reduce the set without risking breaking the teeth ? I note that this saw is already missing one tooth, so I'm thinking that it's probably rather brittle. ++++ End of thread 25105 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25106 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57603 (thread 25106) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-12 19:35:00 Subject: Mallet Gloat I just happened to be home today since my PT was smack in the middle of the day, I took the day off. amavzing how they only have mid-day appointments availible on fridays.. I'm hearbroken, fer sure ;-) the first important thing to note was that aftyer living here for 4 Years, today was the first time I ever even saw my UPS driver..... we had a nice chat. He said "you must be a woodworker right?" the second part is that I recieved a Box from RI. in it was a really spiffy Aluminum Bronze headded mallet on a shaft of what I can only guess is Macassar Ebony. anyway the mallet has an awesone feel to it. this is not what I'd call a beater- mallet though.. more like a "finesse" tool.. the kinda mallet the you cradle the head of in your hand and use the hand;e as a counterballance.... those dteail carvers among us will know hat I mean, right guys.? Really nice! Thanks Steve, it is really swell. ++++ End of thread 25106 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25107 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57606 (thread 25107) ---- From: jcrum@a... (John Crum) Date: 1999-02-12 19:59:00 Subject: historic bench vise question Galoots, Shall we return to our favorite subject. Workbenches... In the very near future, I will be building a work bench for the Old Town San Diego Woodshop Museum. The interpretive period is 1850 to 1872. The bench I make has to be typical of that period, or slightly before. I have a base style that I like and think will fly with the historians. The top will be a simple slab of doug fir or souther yellow pine three inches thick by 32 inches wide by 7 feet long. But, I am at a loss as to the vises. I think a double wooden screw vise would work. Or an iron screw might work. Since the shop is out on the left coast, and early, I'm thinking it would be primitive (no fancy European tail vise, etc.) Any thoughts??? References would be cool! Thanks, jc ++++ End of thread 25107 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25108 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57610 (thread 25108) ---- From: Jim Cook Date: 1999-02-12 20:46:00 Subject: benchtop flattening adventure The short version: While planing a benchtop flat, got finger caught in dog hole, neatly nipped skin off end of middle finger. The long version: This past Saturday, headed off to fellow galoot Robert Brazile's house with my 30" wooden jointer, newly flattened, sharpened and prepared to work on flattening the birch on Robert's beautiful new bench. Robert had already cut the dog holes, with very sharp edges, and all that remained was taking down the outer edges. It didn't take us long to get to it. A little tapping with cobbler's hammer, and the cutter was set for making those floating whispies you may have read about. Since it was his bench, and I didn't want to be the first to make a deep gouge in what was pretty close to being a finished product, I carefully handed him the jointer and watched his technique. He had to start off left handed, since he was standing on the back side of the bench, with the grain necessitating a left to right stroke. Left hand holds tote - check. Right hand on front of plane, palm of hand across top of plane, thumb one near side facing more or less back to his left - check. Start stroke at left, weight on right hand, make shaving and follow through on left, transfer weight to left hand so the benchtop doesn't end up with a crown in the middle - check. In case you're wondering, this was my first opportunity to use this jointer on anything, which is why I was eager to use it. Robert worked up a little bit of perspiration, so it was my turn. Since I was standing at the front of the bench, I was able to plane right handed, and to show off that I could reach the back of the bench from the front (being taller and all), I started working on the same area Robert had been working on. I too worked up a little bit of perspiration, and started working my way back towards the front of the bench. My son came in from around the wall where he had been murdering off aliens on Robert's computer, to describe his latest exploits, and we stopped for a short break. When we started up again, it made sense for us to work at the same time. We started planing even faster and more furiously, with whispies and appropriate grunting noises starting to fill the air. I was using the woodie and Robert was using his #7. My left hand shifted to the front of the plane, probably so I could pull the plane back more quickly, and I started dragging the middle finger along the wood, enjoying the sensation of smoother and smoother wood. I forgot about the dog holes... The shear effect of a 30" freshly flattened jointer in conjunction with a freshly cut dog hole is amazingly efficient. Fortunately, I only lost skin, and 6 days later I'm mostly recovered. I hope no one else has done this. Regards, Jim Cook Newton, MA ---- Start of Message 57703 (thread 25108) ---- From: Tim Fuss Date: 1999-02-15 12:39:00 Subject: Re: benchtop flattening adventure Jim Cook told of flattening a bench and discovered that plane bodies make really good shears. Thanks for the warning, Jim, but it's too late... I found out the exact same thing a while ago with my freshly flattened Preston infill (the really ugly roadkill one that works like a charm, BTW). While enthusiastically making wispy shavings out of any defenseless board in the shop, I allowed the pinky finger on my left hand to drop in front of the toe of the plane. The next stroke found my finger between the plane and the edge of the board. Ouch (and a few, slightly more colorful words). The resulting blister was even more colorful! Paying closer attention to hand position these days... ++++ End of thread 25108 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25109 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57613 (thread 25109) ---- From: tom thornton Date: 1999-02-13 01:32:00 Subject: Wood graining combs In the 1930s- thru 1950s the National Cash Register Company and several other office machine companies finished the metal machine cases in a wood grained pattern. If I recall correctly ( viewed the process several times ) the metal cabinet was spray painted the base color about a middle brown, Then the darker brown was applied using something that looked like a big curved rubber stamp which in effect stamped the grain pattern on the case. Then the worker took a comb like tool and finished out the grain lines into the edges and coves where the big stamp didnt fit. If I recall correctly the finishes came in several shades, walnut, oak etc. The intent was to make the cash registers blend with the wooden display cases used in the department stores. Was changed in the late 1950's to the light tan ( one color) which phased into the beige color now used on most all computer equipment. -- Tom Thornton, Collector of old tools, specializing in hand cranked grindstones Cincinnati #3, F&AM, Morristown, New Jersey, USA ++++ End of thread 25109 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25110 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57617 (thread 25110) ---- From: "David Boreham" Date: 1999-02-12 21:39:00 Subject: Starrett auction find in CA Not woodworking tools, and only of local interest, but I thought worth posting: I was wandering round the local auction house at lunchtime---Cambridge Auction House in Mountain View, California. It's preview day for tomorrow's auction. Among the total junk, antique furniture and 500 computer monitors, they had the contents of a machine shop. Of particular note was a machinist's chest which contained I think most of the more valuable tools from the shop. There's three Starrett squares in there, several micrometers, dial guages, other tools I didn't recognize, mostly all Starrett. The chest is all one lot, #646. I fear that metalworking tools are not allowed under my prenuptual agreement, so I won't be going to the auction. It could be worthwhile for someone local who has a need for these tools though. ++++ End of thread 25110 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25111 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57623 (thread 25111) ---- From: "John L. Odom" Date: 1999-02-12 23:53:00 Subject: Bottomfeeder Challenge I can't top any of the already submitted tales, but I do pretty well. and thought you might enjow this. I found a 24" Ridgid pipe wrench buried in the mud at a Texas Roadside picnic table where we had stopped to eat. When I dug it out there was a nice pair of Klien lineman's pliers under it. I was constantly patrolling the curbsides be cause then we were poor. When I was introduced with my family at a new school my son, then 3 was asked "What is your Daddy's hobby". He replied in a LOUD voice "Picking up and fixing other peoples junk! I wonder if the sponsors might consider unworked chunks of Osage as awards for simply entering? (I'm bottomfeeding now) John L. Odom in Ooltewah, TN ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---- Start of Message 57625 (thread 25111) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-13 00:49:00 Subject: Re: Bottomfeeder Challenge Growing up in New Britain Ct, I saw MANY (in 10 years i'd say I passed by a thousand pounds of Japanned Iron) Stanley planes at yardsales in _primo_ condition..... My only explination is that these guys brought one home with them every month or so in thier lunch sack... (know what I mean?-).. they got unpacked, and got put in the "shop". Eventually, they died widdows selling off thier stuff CHEAP! The day after the yard sale there was usually a cardboard box full of the "junk" nobody bought, 'casue it was "old and dirty", sitting on the curb waiting for the trash collector.... I mean when you live in New Britain, at least two relitives in your extended family worked there and could get wou a shiny new one for next tot nothing. I sure wish I knew then what I know now... ++++ End of thread 25111 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25112 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57624 (thread 25112) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1999-02-13 00:26:00 Subject: FS: Emmert Pattenmaker's vise Guy I know wants to get rid of an Emmert Patternmaker's vise. Says it is an 18" turtleback model, ALL parts there. Tom and I have no place on our benches to mount it. $450 and it will be yours. Give me a ping if you are interested and I will go get it and write up a detailed description. Regards, Steve - your source for cheap vises ++++ End of thread 25112 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25113 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57626 (thread 25113) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-02-13 00:59:00 Subject: Machinist Prices Galoots, A thread awhile back there was a question about the availability of a price guide for Machinist Tools. I responded that there isn't one and suggested several alternatives. One important and valuable alternative I forgot to mention is from Roge r K. Smith (978-249-5990). I just received Roger's new list of tools for sale and it was an instant reminder that I had failed to fully report on where to get information on machinist tools. His sale listing comes fairly regularly and in case you don't recognize the name, he wrote PTAMPIA 1 & 2 and has set the standard for tool literature. Besides the Stanley and other tools he sell in the lists, Roger is also QUITE knowledgeable about machinist tools and his sale listing always have a good supply of newer and, to me more importantly, really older machinist stuff. For example, this list has a several machinist items I'm going to try to buy. So, contact Roger, get on his list (so far it is free) , but buy a couple of items to ensure that you keep receiving his listing. His prices are correct IMHO. *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * *********************************************** ++++ End of thread 25113 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25114 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57627 (thread 25114) ---- From: "George Langford, Sc.D." Date: 1999-02-13 01:25:00 Subject: Re: Bottom feeding tales Hello fellownious Galoots ! This story, like The Wax Job, may seem a little shy of the OldTools thread, but the items described are so old that they really ought to qualify in spite of the electrons involved. At least these are smart electrons in a TTL sort of way, not right-hand-rule electrons like those that the normite devices waste. And the maker (ETEC) has been out of business for twenty years. The story starts with a humongous hassle over the purchase of a used ETEC Autoprobe Electron Microprobe, which is a way cool way of looking at fly genitals and what like.. Oh, yes, the occasional metal. This instrument had been bought new by the former owner at $176K. Well, we'd negotiate for a while; then we'd hit on a price. Then I'd go look at the dad-burned thing, and a piece would be gone. Renegotiate. Another piece gone. Threaten not to sell. Sounds like extortion (we really needed that 'scope). Lawyers involved; more hassle. Finally, success ! A deal; delivery. Moving van; 1500 pound major piece of 'scope starts to roll off bed of truck (parked on hill). Yours truly, faced with life-or-death flash of history, shoves it back on the truck & stands, finger-in-dike lookalike, until rescued. All gets installed & running for a total of $25K. Not bad. Now fast forward a couple of years. This is a twenty-year old hunk of about 25,000 transistors and a similar number of capacitors, resistors and other highly perishable stuff. How to keep it running ? We feel around the community, looking for spares. The other ten or so owners are hoarding theirs. We get a call. Want a microscope ? Sure; but we gotta get it within a couple days. OK; rent a truck (lift tailgate a gottahave) drive; push & shove; drive; lots more push & shove (it's uphill to our office). Success ! Free parts ! $176K worth ! Now fast forward another couple years. Another call. Two microscopes. Another truck; no lift tailgate (sigh). Lotsa shoving (up the U-Haul ramp); more driving; a little rope work. Success ! Free parts ! $252K worth ! Total haul: $252K worth of parts and (eventually, we hope) one more working $176K microscope, all for the cost of renting two trucks, a little driving, and lots of pushing and shoving. Of course, they're only worth that to us. We'll never get much sellin' 'em. We're working on an OldTools fundamental research project with the one working microscope, BTW. That's the OldTools content. You'll see. Best regards, George Langford amenex@e... ++++ End of thread 25114 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25115 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57629 (thread 25115) ---- From: David Strommen Date: 1999-02-12 21:01:00 Subject: Bio: David Strommen Howdy Galoots! I guess I have been lurking here long enough and want to introduce myself. I'm not sure I qualify as a galoot (but I sure do want a 5-1/2 now after reading about them). Tools are in my gene pool - my great grandfather was a woodworker in Norway, my grandfather was a patternmaker, my dad started buying old tools for .50 - $2.00 about 40 years ago. Over they years I have been accumulating toolsbut it wasn't until I helped my dad clean out his workroom and brought home 3 boxes of tools that I realized all I have. Didn't really set out to colllect them it just sorta happened. I definetly fit more in the user category though. I do have all the e***tric kind too but I seem to be drifting more and more to using hand tools. I am definately a bottom feeder - it all started 30 odd years ago when I had this paper route in Milwaukee. I had to get up at 4:30AM to deliver them and guess what my favorite day was? That's right - trash day! I would cruise around on my bike long before anybody was up and watch for those bushel baskets that just had "junk" in them. Amazing what some people will throw away. I still come close to getting in an accident while driving down the road when they have spring cleanup around here! I have more planes than I can use and will be slowly be getting rid of some of them once I figure out what they are. I have been able to figure out most of the Stanleys but I see people talking about a plane number and type 11 for instance. How do I determine the type? David Strommen Galoot at heart and long time bottom feeder! ++++ End of thread 25115 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25116 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57631 (thread 25116) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-02-13 04:44:00 Subject: nifty vise on bench Saw this one on burn.the.wood.with.electricity. or is that wreck, whatever. http://www.bitmover.com/lm/wood/bench/ ---- Start of Message 57635 (thread 25116) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-02-13 07:35:00 Subject: Re: nifty vise on bench This is a handsome bench and he is right to show it off. Also he has some nice hand planes. But I think his endvise design is flawed. That vise is gonna rack. In fact I think you can see this in some of the pictures where its being used and the two vise jaws dont mate properly - the gap increases toward the outside. This may not matter so much when using the dog - they dont need a lot of pressure - but when using the jaws of the tail vise the gripping power is really limited. A twin screw endvise offers the same gripping functions with less of a racking problem and is simpler (and cheaper). Alternatively, he could have built a tail vise and put a small, quick release front vise on the end to give himself a second line of dogs. Adam "Many years later, as he faced the firing squad, Colonel Aureliano Buendias would remember that sunny afternoon when his father had taken him to discover ice." Opening line of "One Hundred Years of Solitude" ---- Start of Message 57636 (thread 25116) ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 1999-02-13 06:56:00 Subject: Re: nifty vise on bench In a message dated 2/12/99 10:36:59 PM, you wrote: << This is a handsome bench and he is right to show it off. >> Definitely. A very nice bench. One to be proud of. I did not have the same BAD experience with maple that the author did, however. >> But I think his endvise design is flawed. >> I agree, in part. Having built several conventional, all-wood tail vises, I can attest to the lack of racking (wracking ?) in these traditional all-wood designs. I guess that's why these vises have been made that way for the last 200 years. If the author's basic concept of a moveable tail vise, indirectly operated by a conventional, metallic vise (Record, etcetera), preferably of the quick- action type, was extended to incorporate an all-wood double-runner design instead of the slotted metal track design, then the vise would likely be fool- proof (and rack-proof. The "clip" which retains the two components of the vise is undoubtedly handy but I believe it should not be on the front surface of the vise. An alternate location should be found where the "clip" would not interfere with long boards which are held against the workbench using the shoulder vise and a "third hand". I am reminded of another innovative workbench which included an auxiliary piece which converted the conventional, metallic front vise into a Scandinavian-type shoulder vise. ---- Start of Message 57649 (thread 25116) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-02-13 17:26:00 Subject: Re: nifty vise on bench Discussion about an innovative tail vise design seen at: http://www.bitmover.com/lm/wood/bench/ Adam thinks it's bad - Peter thinks it can be made to work. At 01:56 AM 2/13/99 EST, PeterH5322@a... wrote: [...] >I did not have the same BAD experience with maple that the author did, >however. Maple is a lovely wood to work with hand tools. It can be tricky to plane but he has all those nice tools. >Having built several conventional, all-wood tail vises, I can attest to the >lack of racking (wracking ?) in these traditional all-wood designs. I guess >that's why these vises have been made that way for the last 200 years. > >If the author's basic concept of a moveable tail vise, indirectly operated by >a conventional, metallic vise (Record, etcetera), preferably of the quick- >action type, was extended to incorporate an all-wood double-runner design >instead of the slotted metal track design, then the vise would likely be fool- >proof (and rack-proof. I don't think a slider will help this vise unless it's well outside of the vise jaws. Let me elaborate: In a single screw vise, the jaw tries to pivot around the screw. A conventional tail vise puts the screw very close to the jaw and the slider quite far away. This results in a mechanical advantage in favor of the slider. The advantage is typically 3:1. This allows the slider to balance the force on the jaw with about one third of that force. Also, there is some play in the slider fit and this allows the jaw to rack. But because of the mechanical advantage, this play is reduced by a factor of 3 when transmitted to the jaw side. This is all part of the divine wisdom which Odin revealed to the ancient Scandinavians before they set out on their longboats to search for old tools on distant shores. However, in this case the screw is 8" or 10" from the tailvise jaw and to get a 3:1 advantage the slider is going to have to 24" to 30" away from the screw which is impractical. Perhaps he could talk his machinist friend into making steel slider and tracks with about .001" play. Such a slider might work if used at the far end of the vise jaws. ++++ End of thread 25116 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25117 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57638 (thread 25117) ---- From: LLesniak@a... Date: 1999-02-13 07:54:00 Subject: Jarrah Wood? And 5 1/2 C! Hello! My brother just returned from a 'round-the-world business trip on which he spent some time in western Australia. He mentioned a re-forestation project involving jarrah wood (eucalyptus marginata? I'm not so good with the latin names!) and I thought I'd look into perhaps making him a little something from this wood to commemorate his journey. Does anyone know anything about this wood, its uses, or working properties? Or could you point me to a reference that can help? Thanks in advance! Also, I just got a 5 1/2 C from a fellow oldtools member. It was already Scary Sharp, and I took it to the workshop right away to test it. Everything that's been written here over the past few days is true...what a wonderful tool! I love it! Guess I'll have to explain the "bonus" Valentine's Day gift she just got me to SWMBO! ;-) ---- Start of Message 57641 (thread 25117) ---- From: Tony Blanks Date: 1999-02-13 12:02:00 Subject: Re: Jarrah Wood? And 5 1/2 C! LLesniak@a... asked, >My brother just returned from a 'round-the-world business trip on which he >spent some time in western Australia. He mentioned a re-forestation project >involving jarrah wood (eucalyptus marginata? I'm not so good with the latin >names!) and I thought I'd look into perhaps making him a little something from >this wood to commemorate his journey. > >Does anyone know anything about this wood, its uses, or working properties? >Or could you point me to a reference that can help? Jarrah is a very hard and dense eucalypt, a deep burgundy red in colour, hard to work and hard on tools, but taking a fair polish when you do. Native to Western Australia. Major uses seem to be as wharf (pier) piles, railway sleepers (railroad ties), high grade flooring and these days in Australia, barbecue trollies and outdoor furniture settings. Occasionally small blocks of Jarrah are advertised in FWW and similar magazines for sale at a price which would buty an entire Jarrah tree in Western Australia What more is there to say? >From a far flung corner of the third world, Regards, Tony B Hobart, Tasmania Always happy to buy short auger bits.... ---- Start of Message 57704 (thread 25117) ---- From: Gerry Kmack Date: 1999-02-15 13:10:00 Subject: Re: Jarrah Wood? And 5 1/2 C! At Saturday 05:02 AM 2/13/99 , Tony Blanks wrote: >Jarrah is a very hard and dense eucalypt, a deep burgundy red in colour, >hard to work and hard on tools, but taking a fair polish when you do. >Native to Western Australia. Major uses seem to be as wharf (pier) piles, >railway sleepers (railroad ties), high grade flooring and these days in >Australia, barbecue trollies and outdoor furniture settings. Occasionally >small blocks of Jarrah are advertised in FWW and similar magazines for sale >at a price which would buty an entire Jarrah tree in Western Australia > >What more is there to say? > -- recently, Jarrah has begun to appear in the USA. There is a store in Santa Fe, New Mexico which specializes in furniture made from the stuff. The wood ranges from gold to dark brown to deep red.... very distinctive, even stunning on some of the pieces that we saw. As Tony said, it does take a very nice polish. Most of the furniture (benches, tables, chairs, etc.) was made from very thick stock (2"+), and besides the unusual coloring, was characterized by the highly polished surfaces, contrasted by lots of imperfections (large open knots, checks, etc.), which were (in most cases) nicely worked into the design of the one-of-a-kind pieces. When I inquired about the wood, I was told that it was Jarrah that originated in Australia, was shipped to Africa, where it was used as railroad ties, and finally is being recovered & reworked into furniture... & shipped to the States. Gerry Kmack / Cave Creek, AZ .... don't know what an entire Jarrah tree would cost in W. Australia, but this furniture was pretty pricey... all we did was _look_ :-( ++++ End of thread 25117 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25118 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57639 (thread 25118) ---- From: "David Barnett" Date: 1999-02-13 09:56:00 Subject: Stanley chisel lines Would the gracious galoots savant extol the virtues (or shortcomings) of the various vintage lines of Stanley chiselry? 720? 750? Everlasting? Or not? This galoot would be grateful. David Barnett Northampton, MA ++++ End of thread 25118 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25119 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57640 (thread 25119) ---- From: STJones911@a... Date: 1999-02-13 11:21:00 Subject: Whence Shellacorama? Another Galoot received email from der Shellacmeister a couple of days ago demanding payment (well, maybe it was just a polite request). I haven't heard anything yet; is it time to panic? Steve Jones Kokomo IN Looking for too much stuff to list.... ---- Start of Message 57655 (thread 25119) ---- From: Ken Miller Date: 1999-02-13 19:24:00 Subject: Re: Whence Shellacorama? Is it time to pay for our bug bits? Ken Miller kenm@s... STJones911@a... wrote: > Another Galoot received email from der Shellacmeister a couple > of days ago demanding payment (well, maybe it was just a polite > request). I haven't heard anything yet; is it time to panic? > > Steve Jones > Kokomo IN > Looking for too much stuff to list.... > > -- ---- Start of Message 57656 (thread 25119) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 1999-02-13 20:39:00 Subject: Re: Whence Shellacorama? On Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:21:36 EST, STJones911@a... wrote: >Another Galoot received email from der Shellacmeister a couple >of days ago demanding payment (well, maybe it was just a polite >request). I haven't heard anything yet; is it time to panic? I got my email a few days ago and sent a check today.... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA New Email address: avogadro@b... (also avogadro@w...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 57663 (thread 25119) ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1999-02-14 01:09:00 Subject: Re: Whence Shellacorama? ** Reply to note from Ken Miller Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:24:50 -0700 GGs, The message was in stealth form, no subject. Look for a message from Paddy with no subject. I almost missed it. ernie fisch ---- Start of Message 57665 (thread 25119) ---- From: "David Barnett" Date: 1999-02-14 01:26:00 Subject: Re: Whence Shellacorama? Michael D. Sullivan wrote: >On Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:21:36 EST, STJones911@a... wrote: > >>Another Galoot received email from der Shellacmeister a couple >>of days ago demanding payment (well, maybe it was just a polite >>request). I haven't heard anything yet; is it time to panic? > >I got my email a few days ago and sent a check today.... Maybe he's running a shellac hoarding Ponzi scheme. You know, the first wave of check writers get their shellac, but the second wave... Sent my check already. Just glad to be in that first wave. David Barnett Northampton, MA I AM in the first wave, aren't I, Paddy? ---- Start of Message 57684 (thread 25119) ---- From: b2d@e... (Duke of URLs) Date: 1999-02-14 21:25:00 Subject: Re: Whence Shellacorama? >Maybe he's running a shellac hoarding Ponzi scheme. You know, the first wave >of check writers get their shellac, but the second wave... I got it on pretty good authority he was noticed at the local Ralph's buying up zip lok baggies by the case load. The DEA was brought in and our boy was left to do a lot of es'plaining hence his lack of contribution to the group these last few days. The rumor that Paddy's A-frame abode was seized upon my hordes of angry entomologist turned out to be just that, a vicious rumor started by a rival Sikh shellac cartel. Keith Bohn ---- Start of Message 57685 (thread 25119) ---- From: "David Barnett" Date: 1999-02-14 16:05:00 Subject: Re: Whence Shellacorama? Keith Bohn wrote: >>Maybe he's running a shellac hoarding Ponzi scheme. You know, the first wave >>of check writers get their shellac, but the second wave... > >I got it on pretty good authority he was noticed at the local Ralph's >buying up zip lok baggies by the case load. The DEA was brought in >and our boy was left to do a lot of es'plaining hence his lack of >contribution to the group these last few days. > >The rumor that Paddy's A-frame abode was seized upon my hordes of >angry entomologist turned out to be just that, a vicious rumor started >by a rival Sikh shellac cartel. Wonder if that ties in with this: DEA Seizes 100 Kilos in So. California' Largest Heroin Bust FEB 14 (AP) Pasadena -- Agents from the Federal Drug Enforcement Agency, in what was described as a daring midnight raid, seized 100 kilos (over 200 pounds) of high grade Asian heroin apparently 'piggybacked' in a shipment of Indian shellac flakes. Storming into the Pasadena hilltop compound shortly after twelve o'clock Sunday morning, agents wearing night vision goggles and body armor found the house devoid of occupants, leaving no one to guard what Los Angeles DEA Regional Director Milo Spivey could only describe as "a snow-cap of the 'bad thing' atop a mountain of something that looked like amber peanut brittle, probably shellac." The tipoff came when customs authorities noticed an unusually large amount of shellac, a once common furniture finish, marked for residential delivery. "No one could possibly use that much shellac", said Spivey, "It was a dead giveaway. Then again, no one could use so many of these, either", puzzled Spivey. "There must be a dozen jackplanes", he said, as crime lab technicians cataloged and bagged the woodworking tools. Federal, state, and local law enforcement are working together in their continuing seach for the still at large Patrick 'Paddy' Olguin, also called "O'Deen", the reputed nom de guerre of the would-be drug kingpin. It is believed that O'Deen may seek refuge among a network of fellow shellac users known only to authorities as 'galoots'. One theory has it that the heroin was intended to finance an even larger shellac buy for 'galoots' who've formed a syndicate for that express purpose, although no one has yet to offer an explanation for their bizarre behavior. David Barnett Northampton, MA ---- Start of Message 57688 (thread 25119) ---- From: snoe749@i... Date: 1999-02-14 17:04:00 Subject: Re: Whence Shellacorama? > One theory has it that the heroin > was intended to finance an even larger shellac buy for 'galoots' who've > formed a syndicate for that express purpose, although no one has yet to > offer an explanation for their bizarre behavior. OH D*MN - now I have to explain why I'm buying the 55gal drum of isopropanol to the _Feds,_ not just SWMBO. Steve Noe, in Indianapolis snoe749@i... ---- Start of Message 57773 (thread 25119) ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 1999-02-16 16:40:00 Subject: Re: Whence Shellacorama? Gentle Shellackers, I cobbled-up my own bulk emailer to handle the 230 orders. Apparently a mailserver or two doesn't like that "unspecified recipients" header, so I'll be pinging each of you off-list to make sure you got your invoice (and are going to pay, pronto!). A couple folks are unsubscribed/postponed, so I can't handle everything vis the list, much as I would like to make this my personal wholesale-o-rama list. 8-) Paddy ++++ End of thread 25119 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25120 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57642 (thread 25120) ---- From: williams@i... (Larry Williams) Date: 1999-02-13 12:35:00 Subject: Tool Meet in NW Ark GG's Just a reminder that the 12th Annual Ground Hog meet is at the Ramada Inn in Bentonville Arkansas today from 10:00 a.m. to 4:00p.m. Larry Williams ++++ End of thread 25120 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25121 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57643 (thread 25121) ---- From: "Scott E. Post" Date: 1999-02-13 12:48:00 Subject: Wedge fitting musings I'm in the final stages of building one of the Hoosier Tool infill shoulder plane kits and have been having trouble fitting the wedge. I've been practicing by making wedges out of poplar before cutting into my precious (and highly figured) cocobolo. Things I tried: - Powdered chalk sprinkled on the wedge to see if it'd show smudges from the high spots. It didn't, but made a hell of a mess on my bench. - Rubbing the wedge with pencil lead. Same result, but less mess. - I considered using diemaker's layout fluid, but was afraid it'd soak into the wood. Earlier in the week Don McConnell (who appeared to be just thinking out loud) posted to the list suggesting plastigage. For those of you who's youth wasn't misspent rebuilding small block Chevy's, plastigage is sold at auto part stores and is used for measuring bearing clearances. It comes as a small diameter string and has a consistency somewhere between plastic and clay. You place a piece of the stuff on, for example, a main bearing, torque the cap in place, remove it again, then measure the width that the string became when squished. The width correlates to the bearing clearance. It's sold in various diameters in order to measure different ranges of clearance. I bought the green stuff which measures from 0.001" to 0.003". (as an aside, it's typically sold in short lengths at about $1.25-$1.50. Does anyone know where to buy small spools or longer lengths? Perhaps I'll stop at a few speed shops next week) I drooped some over the toe of the wedge (so it wouldn't slip) and drove the wedge home. When I removed the wedge the plastigage stuck to it, so it was easy to read. Turns out I had a high spot in the infill under one of the rivets. I had purposely drilled the rivet holes a couple of thousandths undersized to get a nice, snug fit. Apparently this caused a slight bulge in the infill. I took care of it with a file. The wedge still didn't fit, so I draped two pieces of plastigage over it - one along each edge. Turns out I had also not gotten the infill square (think of it as being a bit twisted in relation to the bed). This meant that the wedge was only contacting along one edge. I 'spose the correct thing to do would be to fix the infill, but caution told me that my lack of skill with a chisel could really mess things up and I was better off reworking the wedge. So now the wedge is slightly thicker along the left edge (by maybe 0.010"), but it fits quite well. ps. Barnes and Noble (www. barnesandnoble.com) is selling Whelan's books at the best price I could find. $15.96 for Making Traditional Wooden Planes and $26.25 for the hardback of Wooden Plane: Its History, etc. Both are great books, but I can't imagine making, say, a spill plane based on his description alone. You really need an example in front of you or someone experienced to teach you. ---- Start of Message 57650 (thread 25121) ---- From: Bill Neely Date: 1999-02-13 17:35:00 Subject: Re: Wedge fitting musings Great stuff Scott, I've been mulling over buying one of these kits and the postings from Galoots that have actually done it are very useful. I've been saving them and by the time I'm ready to build it, why it will probably just build itself! ;>) Thanks, Bill Neely "Scott E. Post" wrote: > > I'm in the final stages of building one of the Hoosier Tool infill shoulder > plane kits and have been having trouble fitting the wedge. I've been > practicing by making wedges out of poplar before cutting into my precious > (and highly figured) cocobolo. > > Things I tried: > > - Powdered chalk sprinkled on the wedge to see if it'd show smudges > from the high spots. It didn't, but made a hell of a mess > on my bench. > > - Rubbing the wedge with pencil lead. Same result, but less mess. > > - I considered using diemaker's layout fluid, but was afraid it'd soak > into the wood. > > Earlier in the week Don McConnell (who appeared to be just thinking out > loud) posted to the list suggesting plastigage. For those of you who's > youth wasn't misspent rebuilding small block Chevy's, plastigage is sold > at auto part stores and is used for measuring bearing clearances. It > comes as a small diameter string and has a consistency somewhere between > plastic and clay. You place a piece of the stuff on, for example, a > main bearing, torque the cap in place, remove it again, then measure the > width that the string became when squished. The width correlates to the > bearing clearance. It's sold in various diameters in order to measure > different ranges of clearance. I bought the green stuff which measures > from 0.001" to 0.003". (as an aside, it's typically sold in short lengths > at about $1.25-$1.50. Does anyone know where to buy small spools or > longer lengths? Perhaps I'll stop at a few speed shops next week) > > I drooped some over the toe of the wedge (so it wouldn't slip) and drove > the wedge home. When I removed the wedge the plastigage stuck to it, so > it was easy to read. Turns out I had a high spot in the infill under one > of the rivets. I had purposely drilled the rivet holes a couple of > thousandths undersized to get a nice, snug fit. Apparently this caused > a slight bulge in the infill. I took care of it with a file. The wedge > still didn't fit, so I draped two pieces of plastigage over it - one along > each edge. Turns out I had also not gotten the infill square (think of > it as being a bit twisted in relation to the bed). This meant that the > wedge was only contacting along one edge. I 'spose the correct thing to > do would be to fix the infill, but caution told me that my lack of > skill with a chisel could really mess things up and I was better off > reworking the wedge. So now the wedge is slightly thicker along the left > edge (by maybe 0.010"), but it fits quite well. > > ps. Barnes and Noble (www. barnesandnoble.com) is selling Whelan's books > at the best price I could find. $15.96 for Making Traditional Wooden > Planes and $26.25 for the hardback of Wooden Plane: Its History, etc. > Both are great books, but I can't imagine making, say, a spill plane > based on his description alone. You really need an example in front of > you or someone experienced to teach you. > > -- > Scott Post spost@n... http://www.netusa1.net/~spost > > -- ++++ End of thread 25121 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25122 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57644 (thread 25122) ---- From: "Scott E. Post" Date: 1999-02-13 13:26:00 Subject: Source for Kingshott videos? I've used a couple of the online search engines, but can't find a source for the various Kingshott videos. Anyone know who's selling them? (or perhaps some galoot has them on a shelf gathering dust and would exchange them for a bit of tool money...) ---- Start of Message 57673 (thread 25122) ---- From: Russ Allen Date: 1999-02-14 04:10:00 Subject: Re:Source for Kingshott videos? Scott Post writes: > I've used a couple of the online search engines, but can't find a source > for the various Kingshott videos. Anyone know who's selling them? Your search didn't turn up my Kingshott shrine? http://www.mcs.net/~rallen/kingshott.html >From my page: Kingshott's videos: 1.Bench Planes 2.Special Planes 3.Mortise and Tenon Made Simple 4.Dovetails Made Simple Videos 1 & 2 are available from Highland Hardware (www.highland-hardware.com). All four videos are available from the Astrigal Press (www.astragalpress.com) Russ Allen PS I still have two extra copies of his The Workshop: Designing- Building- Equipping for $32 that I personally imported from the publisher. ---- Start of Message 57765 (thread 25122) ---- From: Dave Hucaby Date: 1999-02-16 15:03:00 Subject: Re: Source for Kingshott videos? You could also get them at Manny's Woodworkers Store. He has a good selection of videos (Taunton, Kingshott, other turning videos from the UK, etc). As well, they keep an outstanding selection of WW books on hand, and they're just around the corner! (from me, anyway :=) 800-243-0713. No connection, just a frequent loiterer. Dave Hucaby dave@i... Lexington, KY ++++ End of thread 25122 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25123 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57645 (thread 25123) ---- From: CLIFFY221@a... Date: 1999-02-13 13:35:00 Subject: Fwd: Bottom feeder challenge From: CLIFFY221@a... Date: Fri Feb 12, 1999 11:19 pm Subject: Re: Bottom feeder challenge To: hammer@a... My favorite bottom feeding was a Sat. morning doughnut run with a chance garage/estate sale on the way. I stopped by and saw a guy with an armload of clamps. I assumed I missed my chance and looked around anyway. On my way out I heard the lady at the cash table tell a guy "that that pile is taken. But there are tools on the back porch and IN THE SHOP". I had been to the porch and all I saw was hoes and pitch forks. My brain said, "Shop? What shop?" I saw the guy head to what we call a "boat port" down here. (One-car closed garage for bass boats). I got to the shop and and the guy was going through a pile of broken hammer heads. I eased up beside and counted to three, my giving him a chance to grab what he had claimed. He drug his pile of broken hammer heads away from me and kind of snarled. I took the signal and reached for a a hoard of tools that included No.7C Stanley, a stanley block plane with a chrome plated knuckle cap and a Stanley Mahogany 24" level. I scurried out to the pay table and then got really shocked. The planes were 50 cents each and the level was 25 cents. All were in good shape and cleaned up nicely. Of course, I might have missed a nice hammer head. But, you can't get'em all. ++++ End of thread 25123 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25124 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57648 (thread 25124) ---- From: Phil and Debbie Koontz Date: 1999-02-13 16:20:00 Subject: Bottom feeder challenge; the judge's decision Well, GGs-- The response to this thread was way beyond my wildest hopes, and I wish I could pass the task of making a decision on to someone else. Some of the best stories were disqualified on purely technical grounds, which required the winner to-- "--provide[s] the best story of a _free tool that was not aquired from a relative._ To make an objective choice, the tool may need to demonstrate some fair market value..." (emphasis added) This disqualified: --John Lederer's near acquisition of a steam tractor at auction for $1, --Scott Grandstaff's TWO gloats of an ultimatum brace from his mother and a $28 Stanley #85, --Chuck Meyers's multiple hoards of loot from his German in-laws and apparently more from his own side of the family. --Paul Honore, who scored a Stanley #97, a 66, and a type 1 71 in a single box lot for $10. --Karl Sanger's story of cool professionalism and the ability to lie like a rug (joke, Karl) in pursuit of the good stuff. (BTW, guys, this story makes me wonder how many aliases Karl has on the list. It might turn out that he actually sent in all 50 or so notes on the topic. Think about it...) We all appreciate the advice of a master craftsman. --Keith Rucker's two story contributions about SWMBO purchasing the tool chest at auction and the 400 lb anvil from a prospective divorcee (ala Karl Sanger). --And even Walt Barry's $5 Stanley #1. While I have nothing but admiration for the skills and luck involved, there is still something special about getting stuff for free, so hence the special rule. And I assume that the excellent story by Charles Rodgers about Vietnam and the exploding outhouse was provided for entertainment rather than as a serious entry. Likewise George Langford's tale of the junkyard SEMs. Likewise again Scott Grandstaff's story of Happy Camp (I thought O. Henry wrote something like that; or maybe it was Mark Twain ;-^)-- it's certainly worthy of either one). I had some honest question about Keith Rucker's acquisition of a heavy lathe and power hacksaw, as possibly being disqualified by the OT FAQ. Upon further review, the charter encourages steam or water driven machinery, and a machine built prior to 1880 that runs from a line shaft was probably steam powered. So the lathe qualifies, and it probably outweighs all the other entries (and their owners) combined. Another close question was Jeff from Wpg, whose #9 plane was part of a cash deal for a bicycle. After reviewing briefs and hearing arguments from opposing counsels and considering comments the various kibitzers, I find that the #9 was clearly a free tool within the meaning of the rules. This may establish a precedent, guys. (As a minor aside, note that the haggling he describes was in Canadian dollars...) Other excellent stories that clearly meet the case are these-- --Clarke Green, who got paid to haul off the tools from a retired craftsman's basement, --Gary Johns, who manfully bore the infliction of a pristine Stanley #45 from a neighbor, --Hayward Hall, who pillaged several old buildings at his small college, --Darrell LaRue, who accidently scored a Stanley #144, plus other unspecified goodies, and who captured a feral brace on the road, --Jim Parker, who takes the prize for brevity and reports two free *three star* wooden molding planes in pristine condition, --Tom Johnson, whose seminary school and Fairlane figure in a dumpster diving story. I am particularly partial to Fairlane stories, BTW, and have a few of my own. --John L. Odom, who actually went underground in pursuit of free tools, and who scores extra points for a plaintive appeal to the judges for scrap wood. --Nedbal@C... (sorry, I couldn't find a plain language name on the note), who reminded me of his recent post about findng a #52 shoot board (and other good stuff) in a dumpster. His story had a poignant touch when the grinch showed up and reclamed a bunch more stuff. --David Tardiff's tale of admiration at the developing skills of his young 'un. --Ed Balko's story combining the stool design thread with this one. He deftly brought out the real essence of bottom feeding, but probably can't produce evidence of much FMV (fir market value) for the article. Yeah, I left the typo on purpose. --Paul Fuss, with his green Stanley #6 (actually, Paul, you wanta sell that cheep?). --Tom Price, with his excellent story of the landlady, her barn full of prize junk, and his first coffin plane. You can see the problem. I feel forced to try to appraise the entries from a distance. For serious galoot appeal, I'm inclined to go for tools (as opposed to the furniture and hardware acquisitions) and for specificity. The Stanleys #45, #144 planes, the #52 shooting board, and the wooden moulding planes are obvious standouts in that regard, as is the huge metal lathe. I think Keith Rucker's lathe story has to get some extra points too from the serendipitous appearance of a flatbed truck and a wrecker to load it and haul it home (almost too good to be true, guys!). And maybe a few more for sheer tonnage. As to value, I'm at a loss; I think I would have to guess that the lathe probably takes the record for potential market value too. But to me, the clear standout was Winnipeg Jeff's bicycle story. It gets bonus points in every category, an FMV well up in the four digit range, the screaming 3 year old, the Master Haggler's license, at least four notes from kibitzers, and the car for She Who Must Be Obeyed. That has to score a near infinite number of points with the family unit. There is also a brilliant touch of niavete' in the way it was presented to the list; "I found this funny looking plane, is it worth anything...?" Karl could hardly have pulled that off better himself (indeed, not at all, unless he used an alias. Hmm). Finally, I don't know if anyone else caught the personal hook, to wit-- "Besides, I've never seen Osage orange before, let alone a mallet made of one..." IMHO, a star is born. With thanks to all who posted, that's it. I need your mailing address, Jeff. Phil Koontz ---- Start of Message 57652 (thread 25124) ---- From: Richard Danzey Date: 1999-02-13 18:30:00 Subject: Re: Bottom feeder challenge; the judge's decision Phil and Debbie Koontz wrote: > > Well, GGs-- > > The response to this thread was way beyond my wildest hopes, and I wish I > could pass the task of making a decision on to someone else. > With thanks to all who posted, that's it. I need your mailing address, > Jeff. > > Phil Koontz > > -- My congratulations to Phil on a brilliantly conceived and executed idea! As a result there was more artfully written narrative and interesting reading, in one place than I've ever seen before. His summation and his rationale were impressive and appreciated. It was good reading all on it's own. Thanks Phil. danz ---- Start of Message 57654 (thread 25124) ---- From: Kenneth Stagg Date: 1999-02-13 19:17:00 Subject: Re: Bottom feeder challenge; the judge's decision Phil Koontz wrote: > I think that we all owe Phil a debt of gratitude for coming up with this. I've lamented before that we weren't seeing as many good stories as we used to, but I hadn't seen a way around it (I'm not the story teller that some of you are.) I've looked forward to reading the list more in the last couple of days than I have in any period since my first 6 months here. The stories were for the most part well written and entertaining. It was good to see new stories, and fun to remember seeing some of the repeats the first time (a $5 #1!!!, a #9 thrown in with a bicycle?!?! arrrggggh!) It was a real pleasure to find that so many of the newer people are such good story tellers - though I'd still love to see som e more from Michael Lewis about Max, from Steve LaMantia about most anything and from Paddy about some of his road trips. Ah well, enough rambling. Thank you Phil for thinking of this. Thanks to all who responded to the challenge for taking the time. -Ken, sitting here thinking that *that's* the Oldtools list that I remember! ---- Start of Message 57657 (thread 25124) ---- From: "Steve Kroser" Date: 1999-02-13 23:05:00 Subject: RE: Bottom feeder challenge; the judge's decision This has definitely been one of the primo threads in my brief tenure on the porch. Kudos to Phil for the excellent idea, I found myself eagerly awaiting the next post. Way to go Steve Kroser Fort Myers, FL ---- Start of Message 57668 (thread 25124) ---- From: estuary@w... (Larry Holland) Date: 1999-02-14 02:41:00 Subject: Re: Bottom feeder challenge; the judge's decision Phil responds to the landslide of excellent submissions... > >The response to this thread was way beyond my wildest hopes Ours as well...hoss. I think you scored a 10.0 on this one. Just to draw out the writing talent that lies within this list has gotta count pretty high. All the stories were very special...sure glad I didn't bear the responsibility of judging. Many thanks, Phil...for a job well done. - Larry Holland estuary@w... ---- Start of Message 57679 (thread 25124) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-14 11:47:00 Subject: Re: Bottom feeder challenge; the judge's decision >I've looked forward to reading the list more in the last couple of days than I >have in any period since my first 6 months here. > >-Ken, sitting here thinking that *that's* the Oldtools list that I remember! Quite right Ken... Ohh ands if anybody was so inclined to archive them, and the author's don't mind, I would really like to put these off The New Apprentice Neanderthal Page. ---- Start of Message 57692 (thread 25124) ---- From: Ron Hock Date: 1999-02-14 23:18:00 Subject: Re: Bottom feeder challenge; the judge's decision Good work, Phil. This thread surpasses even the "What Handtool to Use to Kill a Chicken" thread of oh-so-many years ago. Thanks. ---- Start of Message 57694 (thread 25124) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-14 23:47:00 Subject: Re: Bottom feeder challenge; the judge's decision >Good work, Phil. This thread surpasses even the "What Handtool to Use to >Kill a Chicken" thread of oh-so-many years ago. Thanks. Hi Ron and all, I agree with Ron, ....but I must say the thread that got started about pit bull getting whacked with a #8 rates right up there....now THAT was FUNNY! Adios! T ---- Start of Message 57709 (thread 25124) ---- From: eoh@k... Date: 1999-02-15 15:11:00 Subject: Re: Bottom feeder challenge; the judge's decision From: Esther Heller Rev. Ron said: Good work, Phil. This thread surpasses even the "What Handtool to Use to Kill a Chicken" thread of oh-so-many years ago. Thanks. I actually gave I think the only reasoned various methods answer to the original question (how can I galootishly kill a chicken, preferably quietly from behind) but I never heard if the party asking the question was successful.... Esther (who has slaughtered chickens but prefers to delegate the job) eoh@k... ++++ End of thread 25124 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25125 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57658 (thread 25125) ---- From: Gil Chesbro Date: 1999-02-13 23:37:00 Subject: I think this might be enjoyed by some of the Galoots GG's, Our buddy Bruce, who is once again enjoying student life, asked me to p ass this on to you. >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:54:17 -0500 >From: Bruce Mosher >To: Gil Chesbro >Subject: I think this might be enjoyed by some of the Galoots > > >I signed off the list (did I already whine about how much time school >takes?), but bumped into a site that I think Galoots might enjoy,..... > Would you send it for >me. Thanks - Gil, still in Michigan ++++ End of thread 25125 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25126 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57659 (thread 25126) ---- From: carlwshp Date: 1999-02-14 00:35:00 Subject: Want to Trade Hello Everyone, A friend of mine came over and gave me three nice plow plane irons by Greenfield Tool Co. Greenfield, Mass. They are sizes 7/16", 1/2" & 5/8". I was hoping they would fix my I.Cox plow plane but they have to thick a taper, the ones I need have a thinner taper, anyone out there want to trade three plow plane iron for these ones, they don't have to be the same sizes or the same maker as these, just in usable shape, with the thiner taper, but I already have a 5/8" & 5/16". Like I said these are in Good+ shape, with only a very lite mushrooming on the tang. Thanks Carl Murphy Eastport, Maine ++++ End of thread 25126 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25127 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57660 (thread 25127) ---- From: John Wallace Date: 1999-02-14 00:52:00 Subject: Re:a day Now I can see where this oldtools thing is going . . thought I would start on a workbench today, after acquiring some new old tools and looking for an opportunity (excuse)later on to use my KCWTW #5 Windsor beader on something other than scraps. But, while drawing up a materials list, I began to wonder "how will I get a square cut?" which led me to "is my framing square still square?" which led me to "is this Starrett combo still square?" which led me to "is this BCTW straightedge still straight" which led me to a pleasant day of squaring squares and no beads on my decorative workbench edging and no workbench. Now I'm checking the NIST timeserver for non-square spin. All from subscribing to the Galoot list. Thanks. John Wallace Birmingham AL ++++ End of thread 25127 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25128 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57666 (thread 25128) ---- From: "Stephan Patnaude" Date: 1999-02-14 02:16:00 Subject: FS: Mallets Hiya GG's, I've been putting this off for about a year and I ain't really the commercial sort but......I either have to start selling some tools or stop making them sooooooo........ For sale, Bronze/Brass headed carving mallets, your choice of: Aluminium Bronze - hard Naval Brass - sort of hard 660/115 Bronze - kind of soft Yellow brass - soft with an ebony or other deluxe exotic handle of your choice for 40.00. Standard Old Tools Terms. - Stephan Patnaude ---- Start of Message 57674 (thread 25128) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-02-14 04:57:00 Subject: Re: FS: Mallets Look Out Folks These mallets are so cool and so instinctive to use, it will take you less than a second to fall in love with it. This was the Galoot gift exchange present I didn't want to overgloat about at the time. yours Scott * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, 63742 Applegate Dr., Happy Camp, CA 96039 * scottg@s... PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/ ---- Start of Message 57677 (thread 25128) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-14 11:37:00 Subject: Re: FS: Mallets > Stephan Patnaude takes the plunge and hawks some mallets I just want to cast a hearty glowing endorsement for Stepan's Mallets.. I am not an experince "carver" but a good frined of mine is, so I brought my mallet over to show him.. first thing he did was sow me how to hold and use it correctly. this is not the "brute force bash teh hell out o fsomething" type mallet but rather a "caress it in your palm and use it to gently coax out the slightest wisper of a chip" type mallet... Also, it REALY is a true work of art as well. Mine will have a prized spot next to mt IT saws, Superior Works Bevel and layout knife. and it wil not looka at all out of place next to them either.. truly a first class job executing a first class tool. John Usual Discalimers apply. I would not say it if I didn't believe every word of it. ++++ End of thread 25128 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25129 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57670 (thread 25129) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-02-14 03:47:00 Subject: Started my first bench today... Well, this morning my S.O. informed me that if we were going to be building furniture, the work-mutt didn't cut it. We had to have a bench (the same lady that looked at me a week ago and said "We _NEED_ a spokeshave".) So today we pulled out Sam Allens book and went and bought pine. Now pine doesn't feel like the best choice, but it was either 4/4 oak or 2x4 pine. The decision was for a 4 inch pine top, 48 inches long and about 20 inches wide. We found some 4x4's to use for the legs and lo and behold one happened to be straight enough to use for a little bitty bench. Pulled out the #7 and went to work jointing those 2x4's. After about 1/2 an hour we both decided that the blisters were enough and the one board we had smoothed would do for tonight. She has decided she needs her own 7 so we can both work at the same time. Lots of nifty shavings. I do have a quick question, how much stock do you want to remove with each pass? I am currently set so that when the final pass is made it is about the same thickness as my smooth plane produces. Does it hurt to take thicker shavings? We both found it wasn't the actual planing that was killing us, it was the pick it up and bring it back at the end. Thanks for the info. Roger Books (Good flea hunting, I picked up a $4 Disston & sons backsaw, a $20 Union Tools level, and a $1 50mm Raptar enlarging lens. Of course the 1/2" mortise chisel arrived from the esteemed Mr. Leach, beautiful, a great day.) ---- Start of Message 57686 (thread 25129) ---- From: snoe749@i... Date: 1999-02-14 16:36:00 Subject: Re: Started my first bench today... > Well, this morning my S.O. informed me that if we were going to > be building furniture, the work-mutt didn't cut it. We had to > have a bench (the same lady that looked at me a week ago and > said "We _NEED_ a spokeshave".) Now _THAT's_ a SWMBO! Steve Noe, in Indianapolis, whose own SWMBO bought him a copy of Bernard Jones, _The Complete Woodworker_ for the Feast of St. Valentine. snoe749@i... ++++ End of thread 25129 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25130 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57671 (thread 25130) ---- From: "Gene & Lucy Toye" Date: 1999-02-14 03:46:00 Subject: Information on Sargent Block Plane #306? I have a Sargent block plane that belonged to my father and I got the urge to find out about it. A stroll about the web didn't turn up any Sargent sites. Can anybody point me to some info on it. Here's the specs. remindes me of a Stanley 9 1/2 iron is marked "SARGENT No 306 NEW HAVEN, CT. USA." where SARGENT is in a T shaped box. 6 3/8 long. adjustable mouth. lateral adjust lever is attached directly to plane iron which has 2 threaded holes to allow moving of lever when iron gets shorter. Any info, especially on dating, will be greatly appreciated. Gene ---------- The Toye Family: Gene, Lucy, David, and Amanda 1601 San Francisco Carrollton, TX 75007 ---- Start of Message 57675 (thread 25130) ---- From: FrankSronce Date: 1999-02-14 05:59:00 Subject: Re: Information on Sargent Block Plane #306? Gene, Heckel's Sargent book says the 306 was made from 1884-1953. The Sargent in a T would indicate a type 4 (1919-1942) unless it shows V-B-M in the vertical part of the T (which would make it a type 3 (1909-1918). Heckel says the #306 and #307 were probably the biggest seller in the sargent line of block planes. They were produced longer than any other block plane. Hope this helps, Frank (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) Gene & Lucy Toye wrote: > > I have a Sargent block plane that belonged to my father and I got the urge > to find out about it. A stroll about the web didn't turn up any Sargent > sites. Can anybody point me to some info on it. Here's the specs. > > remindes me of a Stanley 9 1/2 > > iron is marked "SARGENT No 306 NEW HAVEN, CT. USA." where SARGENT is in a T > shaped box. > 6 3/8 long. > adjustable mouth. > lateral adjust lever is attached directly to plane iron which has 2 threaded > holes to allow moving of lever when iron gets shorter. > > Any info, especially on dating, will be greatly appreciated. > > Gene ---- Start of Message 57676 (thread 25130) ---- From: Stan Faullin Date: 1999-02-14 07:42:00 Subject: Re: Information on Sargent Block Plane #306? At 09:46 PM 2/13/99 -0600, Gene Toye wrote: >I have a Sargent block plane that belonged to my father and I got the urge >to find out about it. A stroll about the web didn't turn up any Sargent >sites. Can anybody point me to some info on it. Here's the specs. > >remindes me of a Stanley 9 1/2 > >iron is marked "SARGENT No 306 NEW HAVEN, CT. USA." where SARGENT is in a T >shaped box. >6 3/8 long. >adjustable mouth. >lateral adjust lever is attached directly to plane iron which has 2 threaded >holes to allow moving of lever when iron gets shorter. > > >Any info, especially on dating, will be greatly appreciated. Gene & others, There's a complete Sargent 1925 catalog on my webpage. It's broken down by page number and by plane number, so it's easy what you're looking for. I also have Heckel's Sargent book for sale for anyone who wants one. I highly recommend it for anyone interested in Sargent tools. Cheers, Stan Stan Faullin faullin@c... Visit my Old Tool Webpage at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/faullin ---- Start of Message 57678 (thread 25130) ---- From: STJones911@a... Date: 1999-02-14 11:42:00 Subject: Re: Information on Sargent Block Plane #306? Based on the info in Heckel's book, I would identify it as 306, type 2, 1909-1953. The logo would date it between 1919 and 1942. According to Heckel, the 306 and the larger 307 were the biggest selling block planes Sargent had. Hope this helps. In a message dated 2/13/99 10:42:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, toye@d... writes: > I have a Sargent block plane that belonged to my father and I got the urge > to find out about it. A stroll about the web didn't turn up any Sargent > sites. Can anybody point me to some info on it. Here's the specs. > > remindes me of a Stanley 9 1/2 > > iron is marked "SARGENT No 306 NEW HAVEN, CT. USA." where SARGENT is in a T > shaped box. > 6 3/8 long. > adjustable mouth. > lateral adjust lever is attached directly to plane iron which has 2 threaded > holes to allow moving of lever when iron gets shorter. Steve Jones Kokomo IN Still looking for user grade: Stanley #64 screwdrivers, Buck Bros. mortise chisels, and a complete #45. ---- Start of Message 57680 (thread 25130) ---- From: TURFF49@a... Date: 1999-02-14 12:02:00 Subject: Re: Information on Sargent Block Plane #306? In a message dated 2/14/99 2:43:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, faullin@c... writes: << http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/faullin >> Great webpage, I'll be coming back to it for info. I learned a lot in the 40 minutes I spent there. Thanks, Brian ---- Start of Message 57683 (thread 25130) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-02-14 13:18:00 Subject: Re: Information on Sargent Block Plane #306? Gene asked: "I have a Sargent block plane that belonged to my father and I got the urge to find out about it. A stroll about the web didn't turn up any Sargent sites. Can anybody point me to some info on it. Here's the specs. iron is marked "SARGENT No 306 NEW HAVEN, CT. USA." where SARGENT is in a T shaped box. 6 3/8 long. adjustable mouth. lateral adjust lever is attached directly to plane iron which has 2 threaded holes to allow moving of lever when iron gets shorter. Any info, especially on dating, will be greatly appreciated." Heckel says: Manufactured - 1884-1953 4/24/06 Granville Wright patent for adjustable mouth. Jappanned/highly polished trimmings - 1884-1948 Nickel platd trimmings - 1949-1953 Type 4 blade - 1919- 1942 - "Tee" shaped box with plane # as you indica ted Probably the biggest sellers in Sargent block plane line. Value - $15-$30 Hope this helps *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * *********************************************** ++++ End of thread 25130 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25131 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57689 (thread 25131) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-14 20:43:00 Subject: Child's Tool Box ideas? Greetings GG's! I'm thinking that we've talked about this inthe past, but I didn't have a grandson then, so I probably didn't pay much attention. I'm planning to start a toolbox for my grandson and am looking for ideas. I have a super little handsaw all good to go and several other good, but not rare tools that I've been cleaning up and putting aside. I'm thinking about something that opens up to reveal some small tills and drawers for nails and screws as well as the usual tool slots etc. Anyone built anything they would care to share? Pics? Plans? Considerations? TIA Tom Who DOES have a little Millers Falls 102 clone block plane and who is NOT going to make a spot for the #1 in there ++++ End of thread 25131 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25132 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57690 (thread 25132) ---- From: "Jeff" Date: 1999-02-14 21:45:00 Subject: Acceptance Speech (was:Bottom feeder challenge; the judge's > Phil Koontz wrote: > IMHO, a star is born. Hi Gang, I would like to thank the academy... uh, oops. Seriously, If you read the story, you know there are a number of galoots that deserve my gratitude for this, not just for the story but the information that made that such an amazing deal. If it wasn't for the amazing Stanley B&G I would have never know it was a #9. If it wasn't for all the galoots that responded to my questions I never would have known the how-to's on this plane, nor would I have known it's value or what details made it more valuable. And finally if it wasn't for the unnamed galoot who bought the #9, It would still be that "ugly,uncomfortable plane" sitting unused on my shelf. It now has a loving home, my wife got her mini van (which we just traded for a 98 mini-van..er..tool hauler... and I have enough good tool Karma to last a long, long time. Take a bow galoots, I have the luck, you guys made it a story. Better stop now, I'm starting to get misty... Jeff from Wpg. BTW: A Big thank you to Phil Koontz, not just for my mallet but for starting the contest, it was a terrific thread with lots of great stories. My personal fav is still John's 'almost' purchase of the steam tractor,and his SWMBOs reaction...even my wife howled at that one- and she has no sense of toolhumour. The description of "the look" sounded chillingly familiar. and My mailing address is: Jeff Gillespie 46 Sundial Cres. Winnipeg, Mb. Canada R2N-3K1 Your "Made in Canada" Stanley planes are unhappy down there...send 'em home! ++++ End of thread 25132 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25133 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57691 (thread 25133) ---- From: DaveWolv@a... Date: 1999-02-14 22:22:00 Subject: CRAFTS auction info update Galoots, Wanted to let you know that the CRAFTS auction page has been updated to include a list of many of the tools that will be sold at the April auction. Also, one more "Highlight" tool has been added -- a three-arm plow plane by ANDRUSS (NJ maker) with "WARRANTED" mark. If'n you slobber over woodie planes, do take a gander at the page even if you aren't going to be in the neighborhood. There are some truly great planes being offered. The URL for the auction page is http://members.aol.com/craftsofnj/auction99/auction.html and the URL for the main CRAFTS page is http://members.aol.com/craftsofnj dave @ dave's home for wayward benches ---- Start of Message 57693 (thread 25133) ---- From: DaveWolv@a... Date: 1999-02-14 23:27:00 Subject: Re: CRAFTS auction info update A sharp-eyed helper writes: > The URL for the auction dosn't seem to work as > shown in your post to OldTools. It will work if > a second "99" is inserted after auction and before > html. Thus: members.aol.com/craftsofnj/auction99/auction99.html Crud! Yup, he's right. OK, hand me the Brasso and a rag... :-) dave @ dave's home for wayward benches ++++ End of thread 25133 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25134 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57695 (thread 25134) ---- From: Carl W Muhlhausen Date: 1999-02-15 00:54:00 Subject: T. Lie-Nielsen at the CJWA GGs, Last Wednesday, Thomas Lie-Nielsen ventured into the flatlands of NJ to give a talk at the February meeting of the Central Jersey Woodworkers Assn. I the following blurb for inclusion in our next newsletter, but I thought it might be of interest to galootdom. Also Matt Prusik took some pictures of the festivities which I added to to my Web site. Just follow the link from the home page below and hope that geocities is working. (I've also added a couple of new projects and a tour of my shop if you're interested.) The latter is not for the faint hearted when it comes to seeing tailed apprentices. My write-up probably comes across as an unabashed shill for which I have no apologies - I like his tools, his company, and him personally. Carl ---- Start of Message 57697 (thread 25134) ---- From: "Ted Evans" Date: 1999-02-15 03:33:00 Subject: Re: T. Lie-Nielsen at the CJWA Carl thanks for the L-N report, enjoyed it very much. I too have been waiting on the 073 and the infill. Ted Gs, > >Last Wednesday, Thomas Lie-Nielsen ventured into the flatlands of NJ to >give a talk at the February meeting of the Central Jersey Woodworkers >Assn. ---- Start of Message 57698 (thread 25134) ---- From: wmbrady Date: 1999-02-15 03:33:00 Subject: Re: T. Lie-Nielsen at the CJWA Great piece of reporting Carl! Thanks ---- Start of Message 57701 (thread 25134) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-15 09:33:00 Subject: Re: T. Lie-Nielsen at the CJWA Thanx for sharing this, Carl. Yikes!!!! TLN is making an infill and a #9????? Is there nothing SACRED? Going by the quality of the previous tools I got from him, I guess I'm gonna blow the tools budget yet again.... And I really wanted that bandsaw! Fortunately, Tom Holloway has given me a good alternative to explore. Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm -----Original Message----- From: Carl W Muhlhausen To: oldtools Subject: T. Lie-Nielsen at the CJWA ++++ End of thread 25134 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25135 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57696 (thread 25135) ---- From: "Ken and Mary Ann Vaughan" Date: 1999-02-15 01:00:00 Subject: Old sewing machines - soap- misc My SWMBO (who was that before I joined this group) has a version of old tool syndrom but with a different rat tailed flavor. She is a quilter of great seriousness that migrated into sewing machines -- especially old sewing machines. Some of the sewing machines are as old or older than the wooden moulding planes I am seeking to acquire. Some are treadle, some are hand cranks and many have old-old tails. I do not .count sewing machines and she does not count my acquisitions -- But she really wants a singer featherweight table -- cannot find one so I am under orders to make one. There are photos on the web (gloats mostly) - but I need some dimensions and details. Per chance are there any who might have or know someone who has one of these -- Style is not especially attractive but the mounting hardware and some mounting details would help. I can redesign to better style, but getting better scale and details.... Just got my bill for Paddy's Shellac-o-rama -- I did not realize until a recent post that I too am a shellac-shill -- I use it with repair restoration an recover of the cases, tables etc for the sewing machines. Great stuff!!! Note on the use of lye for degreasing -- I have a daughter who is a soap maker -- renders kidney tallow and uses lye to make soap just like great grandmother did. Lye is not a friendly material -- but neither is a hot forge, a sharp blade, etc. In small quantities (ounces), mixed carefully according to instructions, and properly disposed of, it is an effective material to cut gunge. I think it beats hydrocarbon solvents. Draino of years past was lye that went down the drain -- the water behind it created heat which hastened reactions with hair balls and grease which cleared out and down the drain. Use rubber gloves and eye protection when mixing the dry lye with water as there is tremendous heat production and boiling/splattering may result. Water in large quanties are used to wash/flush any concentrated materials that come into contact with skin. This stuff will disolve wood. Small quantities (an ounce or two), that are residual in solution (with the grease that is now soap) can safely be flushed down the toilet. In those quantities, there will be minimal disturbance in a septic tank - drainfield, and a sewer system flows will mix and dilute it rapidly. (P.S. My engineering training is in environmental engineering and I have worked as a turd herder in earlier years). Purists may flame me directly. Ken Vaughan -- In Juneau Alaska where the days are getting longer and the snow is raining away -- and who has just ordered a mallet (drool drool drool). Thinking of fishing to come and halibut to catch. ++++ End of thread 25135 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25136 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57700 (thread 25136) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-15 09:30:00 Subject: Behkol for shellac, opinions Hi, esteemed GG. Behlen products are now available in Oz. I've read the GW catalogue before and often drooled at having their products available here. It's now a reality and about bloody time, IMHO! Now, the silly question which probably has been answered or discussed before many times, so pardon the encore: Is there any fundamental advantage in using Behkol to dissolve shellac? The context of the question: I use plain methylated spirits available here in Oz. It's basically ethanol wit h a sprinkle of something disgusting to discourage the winos. My shellac rarely lasts more than 3-4 months after mixing, I use it quite extensively as both a sealer and a finish. TIA for any replies. Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ---- Start of Message 57707 (thread 25136) ---- From: "David Barnett" Date: 1999-02-15 14:36:00 Subject: Re: Behkol for shellac, opinions Nuno Souto wrote: >Is there any fundamental advantage in using Behkol to dissolve shellac? > >The context of the question: > >I use plain methylated spirits available here in Oz. It's basically ethanol with >a sprinkle of something disgusting to discourage the winos. My shellac rarely >lasts more than 3-4 months after mixing, I use it quite extensively as both a >sealer and a finish. (snippage) Behkol is "A combination of Ethanol and Isobutanol blended specifically as a dissolving medium for shellac flakes. Behkol's formulation allows for a better flow of self-produced shellac and padding lacquers." I can't see how the above would be that much better for shellac than pure ethanol, and while the adulterants may diminish its appeal at the more upscale Mad Dog 20/20 sampling soiree, I doubt it'd deter the avid Sterno-through-sock 'squeeze' afficianado. Here in Massachusetts the government's decided for us; pure ethanol's not an option. David Barnett Northampton, MA ---- Start of Message 57883 (thread 25136) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-02-18 00:33:00 Subject: Re: Behkol for shellac, opinions On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:36:54 -0500 "David Barnett" writes: >Behkol is "A combination of Ethanol and Isobutanol blended >specifically as a >dissolving medium for shellac flakes. Behkol's formulation allows for Interesting. A while back I asked if anyone knew the denaturant used in Behktol, either on this list or maybe on was rec.norm. I was told the MSD identified the denaturant as methanol. A heavier alcohol used as a denaturant (e.g. butyl alcohol) would produce a somewhat more stable solution. ---- Start of Message 57885 (thread 25136) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-02-18 00:33:00 Subject: Re: Behkol for shellac, opinions On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:30:03 +1100 "Nuno Souto" writes: > >I use plain methylated spirits available here in Oz. It's basically >ethanol with >a sprinkle of something disgusting to discourage the winos. My >shellac rarely >lasts more than 3-4 months after mixing, I use it quite extensively as >both a >sealer and a finish. > >From the name methylated spirits I would assume that the disgusting stuff is methanol. Un fortunately for the winos methanol is (or so I've been told) no less palatable than the ethanol--it just happens to be quite a bit more toxic so that if someone dos drink it by mistake there won't be any obvious indication of a problem until it's too late. Behlens also denatures their alcohol with methanol, it's a pretty standard product. According to my father there was a time when alcohol was denatured with sulfuric acid. This would pretty much assure that no one would drink it my mistake, at least not in significant quantities, and the acid would probably help to make shellac last longer after mixing. However, I doubt if you can find alcohol denatured with sulfuric acid any more. Some shellac afficianodos swear by undenatured ethanol (aka grain alchohol without additonal toxins added), the heavier the alcohol the slower it degrades. Ethanol cut with a bit of isopropynol would probably last longer that what you've been experiencing but it really is best to mix only as much as you'll need for one job. Freshest is best. ---- Start of Message 57891 (thread 25136) ---- From: "David Barnett" Date: 1999-02-18 01:20:00 Subject: Re: Behkol for shellac, opinions Douglas Caprette wrote: >On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:36:54 -0500 "David Barnett" > writes: > >>Behkol is "A combination of Ethanol and Isobutanol blended >>specifically as a >>dissolving medium for shellac flakes. Behkol's formulation allows for > >Interesting. A while back I asked if anyone knew the denaturant used in >Behktol, >either on this list or maybe on was rec.norm. > >I was told the MSD identified the denaturant as methanol. A heavier >alcohol >used as a denaturant (e.g. butyl alcohol) would produce a somewhat more >stable >solution. Even more interesting, as I was quoting from the back of a Behkol can. David Barnett Northampton, MA ++++ End of thread 25136 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25137 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57702 (thread 25137) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-15 09:33:00 Subject: handle fitting onto billhook Fellow Woodworkers: I am attempting to fit new handles to some old Green woodworking tools, (mainly billhooks). The blades are essentially forged from a simple sheet of steel, about 1/4" thick. But (from non-damaged examples), they have a MASSIVE tang, that runs the full length of the handle (about 6-8 inches depending on tool size), and start off the full diameter of the ferrule, about 1 inch, tapering until the end that protrudes from the back of the handle is about 1/4" square. This is then either clinched over, or riveted over a washer. (bad picture of billhook) _____________________________________________________________________________ | _____________| | __________/ | _________/ | | | +----- ___| |-- handle start about here | / ____ _______/ | / ______________/ |-- ferrule starts here |/ I cannot work out how to make the required hole in the handle. If I just drill a 1/4" through the handle and try to force the tang in the wood WILL split. So how do I make the right correct hole. My only idea is to split/saw the handle in 2 and carve it, then glue back together, but the old handles are clearly not made this way. Anyone have any ideas, or even better, knowledge of how this is done? BugBear ---- Start of Message 57708 (thread 25137) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-15 14:36:00 Subject: Re: handle fitting onto billhook I appear to have been vague in my description. The tang is 6" long, 1/4 thick, and tapers from 1" down to 1/4 as shown in the (bad) picture. Just imagine that the tool has be fret-swan from a 1/4" sheet of steel, and you'll have it about right. BugBear. ---- Start of Message 57752 (thread 25137) ---- From: Chuck Hess Date: 1999-02-16 03:26:00 Subject: Re: handle fitting onto billhook aloha galoots, When I make tapered holes in handles I start with a drilled hole to desired depth and then just carve the rest with an incannel gouge of the desired size. Fast and easy. Paul Womack wrote: > Fellow Woodworkers: > I am attempting to fit new handles to > some old Green woodworking tools, > (mainly billhooks). > > The blades are essentially forged from > a simple sheet of steel, about 1/4" thick. > > But (from non-damaged examples), > they have a MASSIVE tang, that runs the > full length of the handle > (about 6-8 inches depending on tool size), > and start off the full diameter of the ferrule, > about 1 inch, tapering until the end that > protrudes from the back of the handle > is about 1/4" square. This is then > either clinched over, or riveted > over a washer. > > (bad picture of billhook) > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > | _____________| > | __________/ > | _________/ > | | > | +----- ___| |-- handle start about here > | / ____ _______/ > | / ______________/ |-- ferrule starts here > |/ > > I cannot work out how to make the required > hole in the handle. If I just drill a 1/4" > through the handle and try to force the tang > in the wood WILL split. > So how do I make the right correct hole. > > My only idea is to split/saw the handle in 2 and carve > it, then glue back together, but the old handles > are clearly not made this way. > > Anyone have any ideas, or even better, > knowledge of how this is done? > > BugBear > > -- ++++ End of thread 25137 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25138 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57705 (thread 25138) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-02-15 13:16:00 Subject: Re: handle fitting onto -anytang- Bugbear, You'll probably have to drill from each end to get a relatively straight hole that deep anyway. So use the 1/4" for one end and start with 1" at the other. Drill a bit with it, then got to 3/4, then 1/2, you get the idea. If the tang is square besides being long and tapered, I'd burn it in. I know,..... nobody wants to do it, but after you've split your third handle, either trying to get it on or in the first usage, remember this......... Line a mechanic's vice jaws with copper (so they don't bite your tool) and cramp securely at the base of the blade. 2 propane torches coming from 2 directions is fast. Heat the tang dull red, especially at the little end. The handle will now "fall" on with very light pushing. Stop pushing when you are about 1/4" shy of your goal and pull it back off. Let the tang cool right where it is. Finish up. It'll smoke and hiss in a most unpleasant manner when you burn it in, but I have done very many tools this way and I cannot find any better. Always works, always. yours Scott-- ++++ End of thread 25138 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25139 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57706 (thread 25139) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-02-15 13:39:00 Subject: What's so speacial about this tape measure? I picked up a little 6 foot tape measure for peanuts this weekend out of curiousity. It has petent pending on it and I was wondering what there was to patent on it. It a very simple tape, it has no lock and no spring return, you pull it out and push it in manually. Could this be what the patent was about? It's a 6 foot tape measure and on the front it says "Master" and below that "New York". On the tape it says "MASTER RULE MFG. CO, Inc. NEW YORK, N.Y. MADE IN USA". On the back it says No 306 MADE IN U.S.A. PAT'S PEND. The tape is unpainted steel, just black letters on steel. But the front of the tape does have a translucent bronze coloured finish to it, sort of like a light blueing but not blue. Anybody know something about this? Thanks Dan ++++ End of thread 25139 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25140 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57710 (thread 25140) ---- From: D & B Brown Date: 1999-02-15 15:57:00 Subject: Emmert alert This would probably only apply to local So.Cal. galoots, although I don't know, at this price maybe the shipping could be justified. I haven't a clue what the value of these are but the following ad is in my local newspaper (OC Register): Emmert pattern maker's vise, 6"x18" $350 714-832-5151 I looked the prefix up in the phone book, it's in Santa Ana, CA. I don't know this person & have not called on the ad. Good luck if it's a good deal. If not.....never mind. David Brown ++++ End of thread 25140 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25141 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57711 (thread 25141) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-02-15 16:14:00 Subject: PATINA Auction Listing OK - The PATINA Spring Tool Extravaganza site is final: I've put the "final" draft of the PATINA 500+ lot March auction listing on the Web page. Start at this URL: < http://www.mindspring.com/~sangerkw/Patina99-1.html > and follow the link to the listing, directions, map or pictures. Thanks to those who helped me with he listing. I still don't know how to make a counter work in my web space (without obnoxious advertising). I also can't put the listing out on the Web in the format it would appear on a pinted page - 2 column. The reasons are many - e.g., I don't have Adobe PDF write capability (too expensive!), Allan Fisher's method worked (construct a MS Word table and copy it column by column into a 1 row, 2 column HTML table), but that is too tiresome. So, bad news is that the listing is in single column format. The good news is you can "select all" and "Copy" the listing ino your word processor to construct your own listing with columns and added fields for estimates or bid amounts, etc. IF I get it, I'll post the prices realized. Karl - accepting comments and suggestions for next year. *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * *********************************************** ++++ End of thread 25141 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25142 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57712 (thread 25142) ---- From: "DuPrie, James" Date: 1999-02-15 16:31:00 Subject: Barrister Bookcase design idea... OK, so its not old tools, *but* I'll be building them with old tools..... background: we're about to put a fairly major addition to our house, and it looks like I'll get a library out of the deal. Of course, it will be tastefully furnished with Oak panels, and (of course) Barristers bookcases. Lots of them. The eternal question with the bookcases is : what's the best way to hang the door so it opens and closes smoothly. The old-timers used a sort of scissors mechanism, but I haven't had much luck with it. Best solution I've come up with so far is a couple of dowels at the top of door running in grooves, and *really* accurate and smooth grooves (and wax. Can't forget wax...). This seems to work pretty well in the shop. Changes in moisture don't seem to make too much difference, so I'm not too worried about that. What I *am* worried about is wear. a 1/4" maple dowel running in a 1/4" maple slot should last a good long time, but how long. Also, in the shop, there aren't kids (there will be 5 of them in the house) abusing the doors. My thoughts: stick with the dowel concept, but go with Brass pins and channels (also waxed), and to ensure alignment (and allow for a little extra wear and tear) throw 4 bullet catches into the frame. One at each top corner, and one about 1/2 way down on each side. Set them up so that they act as positioners instead of catches - as they slide in the brass track, they push out on either side helping to keep the door straight. Wouldn't help much with alignment until the second pair enters the channel, but once its in, it should help keep the door aligned. Another option I'm kicking about is to put the bullet catches in the channel itself, and let them push on the door - same effect, but may run a little smoother. So whadaya think? am I totally whacked? has anyone *else* played this game (making barrister bookcases that work, and should last a hunnerd years..) thanks --JD ******************************************************************** ** James J. Momenee-DuPrie 100 Brickstone Square ** ** Director Year 2000 Andover Ma 01810 ** ** CMG Information Systems (978) 684-3722 ** ** jduprie@c... ** ******************************************************************** ---- Start of Message 57714 (thread 25142) ---- From: "David Barnett" Date: 1999-02-15 16:53:00 Subject: Re: Barrister Bookcase design idea... James DuPrie wrote: (snippage) > My thoughts: > stick with the dowel concept, but go with Brass pins and channels (also >waxed), and to ensure alignment (and allow for a little extra wear and >tear) throw 4 bullet catches into the frame. One at each top corner, and >one about 1/2 way down on each side. Set them up so that they act as >positioners instead of catches - as they slide in the brass track, they >push out on either side helping to keep the door straight. Wouldn't help >much with alignment until the second pair enters the channel, but once >its in, it should help keep the door aligned. I think rather than dowels which slide in dados, I'd have short rectangular slides that house the dowel ends (maybe brass rather than maple dowels), with leather or cork 'bumpers', either on the slides or at the front and rear of the dados. This would prevent problems with flattening of wood dowels or damage to the dado from brass rod. ============================== | O | ============================== David Barnett Northampton, MA ---- Start of Message 57715 (thread 25142) ---- From: "DuPrie, James" Date: 1999-02-15 17:10:00 Subject: RE: Barrister Bookcase design idea... I like the idea of the slides. I was planning on converting to both a brass dowel *and* a brass lining to the dado. By "boxing" the dowel, the operation should be much smoother, and it would (at least if I can work to close tolerances) help eliminate mis-alignment of the door. Of course, this would be a good reason to make the slide block a little deeper - a captive pin in a block running in a dado would help keep it running square....Hmmm... maybe I should line the dado with a trapped brass lining - Kinda like a C with the runner trapped inside the C, and the pin protruding through the opening. Hmm.... Ya doen it. Ya got me thinking now... thanks --JD David Barnett sez: > I think rather than dowels which slide in dados, I'd have > short rectangular > slides that house the dowel ends (maybe brass rather than > maple dowels), > with leather or cork 'bumpers', either on the slides or at > the front and > rear of the dados. This would prevent problems with flattening of wood > dowels or damage to the dado from brass rod. ---- Start of Message 57724 (thread 25142) ---- From: Richard Danzey Date: 1999-02-15 19:33:00 Subject: Re: Barrister Bookcase design idea... Hartville Tool, and probably others sell T slot extrusions which effectively give you the 'C' shape you mention. I'm having a hard time envisioning a lot of what you guys are discussing, but barrister bookcases are a pet project goal of mine and I appreciate the ideas and suggestions. Let's hear more.... danz "DuPrie, James" wrote: > > I like the idea of the slides. I was planning on converting to both a > brass dowel *and* a brass lining to the dado. By "boxing" the dowel, the > operation should be much smoother, and it would (at least if I can work > to close tolerances) help eliminate mis-alignment of the door. Of > course, this would be a good reason to make the slide block a little > deeper - a captive pin in a block running in a dado would help keep it > running square....Hmmm... maybe I should line the dado with a trapped > brass lining - Kinda like a C with the runner trapped inside the C, and > the pin protruding through the opening. Hmm.... > Ya doen it. Ya got me thinking now... > thanks > --JD > > David Barnett sez: > > I think rather than dowels which slide in dados, I'd have > > short rectangular > > slides that house the dowel ends (maybe brass rather than > > maple dowels), > > with leather or cork 'bumpers', either on the slides or at > > the front and > > rear of the dados. This would prevent problems with flattening of wood > > dowels or damage to the dado from brass rod. > > -- ---- Start of Message 57740 (thread 25142) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 1999-02-15 21:31:00 Subject: Re: Barrister Bookcase design idea... On 15 Feb 99 at 11:31, DuPrie, James wrote: > The eternal question with the bookcases is : what's the best way to > hang the door so it opens and closes smoothly. The old-timers used a > sort of scissors mechanism, but I haven't had much luck with it. Best > solution I've come up with so far is a couple of dowels at the top of > door running in grooves, and *really* accurate and smooth grooves (and > wax. Can't forget wax...). This seems to work pretty well in the shop. > Changes in moisture don't seem to make too much difference, so I'm not > too worried about that. What I *am* worried about is wear. a 1/4" maple > dowel running in a 1/4" maple slot should last a good long time, but how > long. Also, in the shop, there aren't kids (there will be 5 of them in > the house) abusing the doors. Having built such a bookcase (now up to three shelf sections, plus base and top), I have a greater appreciation of why the scissors mechanism is useful. I wouldn't worry too much about wear - I find I don't open and close mine very much. OK, maybe I would if the dowel mechanism worked better. Remember, there's two "motions" going on here. One is the door swinging up to access the interior. The other is sliding the door back to leave it open. If you just want to get a book out or put one back, you only need to pivot the door open, grab the book, and pivot the door back down. If you are accessing the books on a shelf very frequently, you tend to just leave the door open. The only time when you worry about the second motion is when you want to go from one stable state to the other (open or shut), and I bet you will find you don't do this much once you live with these things. Me, I'm lazy, and mostly keep mine open because I access the contents often. My MIL, who has the original on which mine is based, mostly leaves hers shut all the time. The books she keeps in hers are not ones she needs to reference often. Depends on what you've got in there. Now, that said, I built my frugal (bottom-feeder's) barrister's bookcase using dowels because I'm a cheap bastuhd. I researched the various choices a bit, and ended up with one that could be made for next to nothing, counting my labor as worthless. The good news: didn't cost anything. The bad news is that you need to be very careful when you make the channels to get the fit right. If it is too tight, it will bind. If it is too loose, the door will tend to rotate a bit as you slide it in and out, causing it to bind in a different way. Out of habit, I grasp the door with both hands when sliding it in or out to keep it in alignment. This isn't really necessary on all the doors, and some day I might go back and adjust the tracks and/or dowels to make the bad doors work better. But the scissors mechanism limits the rotational tendency and only lets the door move straight in or out, which dowels don't. That said, if you do it right it really works well enough and moves fairly smoothly. I have supplied plans to a few galoots, and eventually just put the drawings and construction notes on my web site, referenced in my sig. Check it out, and feel free to ask me questions off-list (or on, if you think enough people are interested). -Ken, perpetual bottom-feeder Ken Greenberg IT #321; Blue Galoot #82 400 Los Gatos Blvd., Los Gatos, CA 95032 http://www.calast.com/ken/Personal/wood.htm ---- Start of Message 57748 (thread 25142) ---- From: FrankSronce Date: 1999-02-16 04:54:00 Subject: Re: Barrister Bookcase design idea... James, Several years ago I made two sets of barristers' bookcases based on a modified version of the plans in WoodSmith. I went with the dowel idea except that I substituted 1/4 inch nylon dowels for wood. Been working fine for several years now. Frank (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) "DuPrie, James" wrote: > > OK, so its not old tools, *but* I'll be building them with old > tools..... > background: we're about to put a fairly major addition to our house, > and it looks like I'll get a library out of the deal. Of course, it will > be tastefully furnished with Oak panels, and (of course) Barristers > bookcases. Lots of them. > The eternal question with the bookcases is : what's the best way to > hang the door so it opens and closes smoothly. The old-timers used a > sort of scissors mechanism, but I haven't had much luck with it. Best > solution I've come up with so far is a couple of dowels at the top of > door running in grooves, and *really* accurate and smooth grooves (and > wax. Can't forget wax...). This seems to work pretty well in the shop. > Changes in moisture don't seem to make too much difference, so I'm not > too worried about that. What I *am* worried about is wear. a 1/4" maple > dowel running in a 1/4" maple slot should last a good long time, but how > long. Also, in the shop, there aren't kids (there will be 5 of them in > the house) abusing the doors. > My thoughts: > stick with the dowel concept, but go with Brass pins and channels (also > waxed), and to ensure alignment (and allow for a little extra wear and > tear) throw 4 bullet catches into the frame. ---- Start of Message 57754 (thread 25142) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-02-16 07:12:00 Subject: RE: Barrister Bookcase design idea... ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of DuPrie, ~ James ~ Sent: Monday, February 15, 1999 4:31 PM ~ To: 'Oldtools' ~ Subject: Barrister Bookcase design idea... ~ ~ ~ OK, so its not old tools, *but* I'll be building them with old ~ tools..... No need to explain! Posts about using hand tools and making furniture, perfectly legit as far as I know and to be warmly encouraged! Jeff ---- Start of Message 57763 (thread 25142) ---- From: David Tuttle Date: 1999-02-16 14:30:00 Subject: Re: Barrister Bookcase design idea... At 11:31 AM 2/15/1999 -0500, DuPrie, James wrote: >OK, so its not old tools, *but* I'll be building them with old >tools..... Look in FWW issue 96 page 51 article by Jeff Greef. (I have the index on computer at here at work). Tutt-Tutt for Now David Tuttle: tuttle@e... Brantford, ON Canada Voice: (519) 754-1138 ---- Start of Message 57768 (thread 25142) ---- From: Robert Arthur Date: 1999-02-16 15:31:00 Subject: Re: Barrister Bookcase design idea... Rockler's (http://www.rockler.com) sell's plans (not necessarily needed) and hardware for these bookcases. Do a search of their catalog on-line. At 09:25 PM 2/15/99 , Michael D. Sullivan wrote: >On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:31:12 -0500, DuPrie, James wrote: > [snip of info request from James] > >James, one of the major WW magazines had an article on making these a few >years ago, including a source for the "scissors mechanism." The bookcases >are still being made; perhaps the manufacturer sells the parts. One source >for the new bookcases is Levenger (http://www.levenger.com). They may be >able to tell you where to get the mechanism. ++++ End of thread 25142 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25143 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57713 (thread 25143) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-02-15 15:52:00 Subject: Degreasing With--hand cleaner GGs-- The various mentions of caustic chemicals recently lead me to comment that I've taken to doing initial cleaning on grease-cruded tools with ordinary yellow Go-Jo shop hand cleaner, the smell of which will always remind me of dank and greasy mechanical repair shops entered occasionally in my youth. After wiping or removing scaled dust/grease with a small scrap of soft wood as needed, I just glob some hand cleaner on with an old toothbrush and have at it, going over the whole thing, or all the parts. I then rinse in a utility sink with hot water, again scrubbing with a toothbrush to remove residue. Depending on what needs cleaning and the condition of the piece, this usually results in a fairly bare surface, without adversely affecting either jappaned metal or varnished wood in any way that I can determine. It does virtually nothing to rust, but other unwanted surface coatings seem to be gently but completely removed. Unless there is a chorus of warnings about Go-Jo (or generic equivalent) containing "nasty stuff," I would venture to recommend this to the porch. So, is there a downside to this that I and others should know about? Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 57718 (thread 25143) ---- From: ralph.brendler@a... (Ralph Brendler) Date: 1999-02-15 17:16:00 Subject: Re: Degreasing With--hand cleaner Tom Holloway writes: > The various mentions of caustic chemicals recently lead me to >comment that I've taken to doing initial cleaning on grease-cruded tools >with ordinary yellow Go-Jo shop hand cleaner [snip] I've also used "Goop", which is a slightly more abrasive version of the same-- works great on metal, but I don't know if I'd trust it on bare wood. Another favorite degreaser that I discovered by mistake and discussed here about a year ago is Brasso. This does a superb job at removing grunge on both wood and metal. It's now replaced mineral spirits as the first thing I use on a dirty or oily piece. ralph ---- Start of Message 57721 (thread 25143) ---- From: elschaffer@j... Date: 1999-02-15 19:01:00 Subject: Re: Degreasing With--hand cleaner Tom: I would make two points about using hand cleaner mixes: --Don't use hand cleaners that have lanolin included (leaves a "greasy film"). --Don't leave it on varnished or painted surfaces for long (a minute o r two should be enough). Wipe it off with a wet rag or sponge. Repeat as necessary, but monitor what is happening to the original coating (if any). -- Wipe dry with clean rag or paper toweling when done. The hand cleaner will remove varnish or paint coatings , as well as substantial grease, etc, if allowed to remain for long on such surfaces. --ErvSawwwwwwwz ++++ End of thread 25143 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25144 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57716 (thread 25144) ---- From: Joe Jerkins Date: 1999-02-15 17:10:00 Subject: An Heir for My Tools Dear GG's, Minimal old tool content, but maximum gloat (happiness) for me. Looks like there will be yet another Joe in the Bay Area Galoots. Our first child, Joseph William, was born Friday February 5. 6lbs 9 oz. He was three weeks early, surprising my wife on her last day at work and born less than 5 hours after the water breaking. Both he and SWMBO are doing well. He will definitely be a galoot because he has large hands. They will fit much better around a tote than an *l*ctr*c trigger. Thanks for the bandwidth. Joe Jerkins (who's getting pretty good and fast at changing diapers) San Francisco, CA ++++ End of thread 25144 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25145 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57717 (thread 25145) ---- From: James Foster Date: 1999-02-15 17:10:00 Subject: #2 question The MWTCA winter meet in Medina (a suburb west of Minneapolis) happened this weekend. I could only make the first two hours of it on Saturday. Looked to be mostly the same semi local dealers, with some of the same items as last year I think B^). A pretty good selection of goodies though, for those of us in the tool tundra. Saw Randy Roeder(dealin') and Tom Johnson(just a civilian this year), but missed any other local galoots that came. Biggest score for me was probably the 10lbs or so of leather working stamps/punches/asst tools in one lot. There were almost 60 tooling stamps, and another 20 or so figure stamps, a carving knife, a half dozen modeling tools, and a set of numbered punches. I also got a handfull of other tools. But I digress. I did something I said I wouldn't do: Bought a #2 at a meet. I figured I'd just hold out for hitting the mythical magical garage sale for my #2 and #1, but this one was in good shape, and the price was good compared to the competition, which was usually brazed in some fashion or another. But the front knob was incorrect (remedied by an old #3 knob - or at least the #3 looks right for this), and the tote looks, well, funky. Might be a replacement or might have been overcleaned. The main grain looks too light, though I do think it's rosewood. It looks darker on the center back of the tote, almost as if the finish had been stripped or worn away but this had been left. But the main thing that got me thinking about it being wrong was that the plane is supposed to be an early type (no "Bailey #2" on the toe), but the tote doesn't have that longer, more fluid look to the tip that the older totes seem to have. It looks more stocky like later totes. The question is severalfold, I guess. B&G doesn't mention when the #2's weren't labled, and since #2's are atypical, the plane dating/type pages don't help much. What's the best thing to key off of on these for dating them? I didn't note if the lateral lever had any patent dates, just that it said Stanley, and I'm not sure if I can recognize the "later" type of frog, though this one does look from the rear like that of a type 11 #3 I was comparing it to. I'm guessing it's from the 1905-1920 era somewhere, and probably can't narrow it down more than that. The second part is about the tote. For those of you who have several #2's to examine (and I know you're out there), would the earlier totes have the longer, more graceful tips, or did the lack of room keep them shorter and higher? I'll probably clean the tote up a bit and use a darker shellac on it when it comes in (Thanks, Paddy!) to get a look that blends in better with the older totes, but I'm curious to see how likely it is that it's original. All in all the Medina meet was a good two hours of shopping and drooling. Spent way more than I planned, and didn't get a single thing that was on my "list." But was also happy with what I found. ++++ End of thread 25145 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25146 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57719 (thread 25146) ---- From: Andrew Bell Date: 1999-02-15 17:55:00 Subject: Degreasers Ralph Brendler wrote: > > Tom Holloway writes: > > > The various mentions of caustic chemicals recently lead me to > >comment that I've taken to doing initial cleaning on grease-cruded tools > >with ordinary yellow Go-Jo shop hand cleaner The relatively new citrus cleaners also work well if not diluted too much. I use it for bicycle parts and it works well. It can make your skin itch a little, but it sure ain't lye. I don't know if you would want to use it on wood, unless you want to raise the patina anyway, since it's water soluable. It can also be expensive. Do any of you chemist types out there know what this stuff is and if I can get it cheap by mixing my own? -- Andrew Bell / |/ andrew.bell@b... / / --0-- Nth Degree Inc. (719) 635-1160 / / /| 4740 Holister Ct. / / Colo. Springs, CO 80919 / ++++ End of thread 25146 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25147 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57720 (thread 25147) ---- From: STJones911@a... Date: 1999-02-15 17:44:00 Subject: Advice re Partial Stanley #46 Wise and erudite ones; I have a type 10-11 Stanley #46 body, fence with rosewood, long (?) arms, one cutter. Its obvious missing parts include the sliding section, slitter(?), depth stop(s?), and most of the cutters. I'd like to turn this into a user. Are the missing parts available? Please reply off-list me with advice, parts for sale, or offers to take it off my hands and save me from another quest. Thanks. Steve Jones Kokomo IN Looking for user grade Stanley #64 screwdrivers, Buck Bros. mortise chisels, and a complete #45. ++++ End of thread 25147 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25148 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57722 (thread 25148) ---- From: Gil Chesbro Date: 1999-02-15 19:18:00 Subject: Classes at Tillers GG's, This year Tillers, of Kalamazoo, Michigan, is offering over 60 classes, ranging from tiber framing, to ox driving, to blacksmithing, to spokeshave making. This weekend, 2/20 & 2/21, from 9 am to 4:30 pm, they're holding their Draft Animal Logging class. Horses and oxen will be used. Tree felling, sled loading, draft animal driving, sawyering, and seasoning will be discussed and demonstrated. Time permitting, I intend to be there. On Sunday, April 18th, I'll once again teach the spokeshave making clas s, wherein I'll try to pass on everything Gunterman taught me. Of special interest to some of you Chicago galoots will be the class on small foundry work this May 15th. From the catalog: "Learn to cast aluminum is green sand molds in this introduction to foundry work. Methods for making small furnaces are discussed. The challenges of patterns and molding are explored." Class catalogs are available by calling 1-800-498-2700. (Tell them Gil referred you.) The website is . Please note the site has last year's course schedule, but should be updated soon. Tillers is a nonprofit organization and I receive no compensation for m y work for them. Please feel free to e-mail any question you may have to me. - Gil, still in Michigan ---- Start of Message 57774 (thread 25148) ---- From: "Jim Weaver" Date: 1999-02-15 21:54:00 Subject: Re: Classes at Tillers I attended the draft horse basics class last year and am attending the logging class this weekend. The classes are great for anyone interested in this sort of thing. Maybe I'll see you there this weekend. Jim Weaver in Indianapolis ++++ End of thread 25148 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25149 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57723 (thread 25149) ---- From: "William H. Fissell" Date: 1999-02-15 19:25:00 Subject: #8 parts, cleaning Hi, I reviewd some of the web-based lore on tool cleaning, and I have zapped several tools. The #8T4 I bought has been very resistant to zapping. After six hours in the tank, the sides look great, but the inside looks like h*ll still. It ahs maybe 10% japanning, and the rest is rust. And I can't as yet unscrew the frog 'cause someone muscled away the slot on one of the screws. That someone was *not* me, might I add. So.... what now.... I am tempted to walnut-shell blast it, and then zap it again. Opinions? Also, I cleaned the lever cap, which is in good shape except for some minor pitting, which seems to be a function of the grain size of the casting, not corrosion. Anyone seen this? Oh, one last thing... should I keep my #7? Bill Fissell ---- Start of Message 57725 (thread 25149) ---- From: r_moore@t... Date: 1999-02-15 19:42:00 Subject: Re: #8 parts, cleaning In my experience, six hours is not long enough in the tank for a -really- rusted piece. I have been known to leave them cooking for as long as 48 hours. Of course, this is on really corroded tools, where japanning and/or patina preservation is not an issue. I normally place an expendable electrode (never can remember the correct terminology for that) on each side of the tank and turn the tool on it's side about half way through to let it work on the inside for a while (electrolysis is largely a line-of-sight process, as I understand it). My 2 cents worth, Randy Moore Waxahachie, TX ---- Start of Message 57726 (thread 25149) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1999-02-15 19:54:00 Subject: Re: #8 parts, cleaning On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:25:52 -0500 "William H. Fissell" writes: >Hi, > [snip Bill electrozapping a #8] > >Oh, one last thing... > >should I keep my #7? > BILLY, Billy, billy! Where ya been? Of course we in the Slippery Slope Support Group from Hell are going to require you to have both the #7 and #8. You NEED the #7 when the #8 is too big and the #6 (ya got one of dem don't ya?) is too small. And start working on the set. You NEED two of each, one set rank the other fine. When you get them, come on back and we'll discuss spares. You can justify this without putting your user status in jeopardy. Go ahead now, go git em. Oh, and if you have a SWMBO who is givin' ya grief over this call 1-800-PADDYJACK. The voice messaging system will provide justification for up to about 20 of any one plane. Regards, Steve - who let it go when the guy asked "why more than one block plane", but can't let this slip by. ---- Start of Message 57728 (thread 25149) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-15 20:11:00 Subject: Re: #8 parts, cleaning >[snip Bill electrozapping a #8] >> >>Oh, one last thing... >> >>should I keep my #7? >> Steve writes.... > BILLY, Billy, billy! Where ya been? Of course we >in the Slippery Slope Support Group from Hell are going >to require you to have both the #7 and #8. You NEED the >#7 when the #8 is too big and the #6 (ya got one of dem >don't ya?) is too small. And start working on the set. >You NEED two of each, one set rank the other fine. Steve Steve..... yer slipping....you forgot to mention those ESSENTIAL "c" models...you know, the ones that won't stick to those big cocobolo panels you're always gluing up..... Tom ---- Start of Message 57729 (thread 25149) ---- From: "Kelly Cox" Date: 1999-02-15 20:05:00 Subject: RE: #8 parts, cleaning Bill Fissell wrote: > > > The #8T4 I bought has been very resistant to zapping. After six hours in > the tank, the sides look great, but the inside looks like h*ll still. It > ahs maybe 10% japanning, and the rest is rust. And I can't as yet > unscrew the frog 'cause someone muscled away the slot on one of the > screws. That someone was *not* me, might I add. I've had good luck with turning a plane so that the part that is the most rusty is facing the sacrificial electrode in the tank. This is where John Lederer's idea of using an entire stainless steel tank (and resting the plane on an insulating mat) would come in really handy. With regard to loosening stuck screws: I've generally cut a new slot in the screw using a Dremel tool (not an old hand tool, but nothing beats it for re-cutting a screw slot) and then heating the affected area. In some cases (like my #78 which was missing most of its japanning anyway) I put the whole plane in the kitchen oven turned all the way up; I then removed the hot plane with an oven mitt and unscrewed the stuck screw. I've also heard of people having good luck with sticking a screwdriver into the slot and heating the screwdriver with a small torch. This way you only transfer heat to the affected area. > > > Oh, one last thing... > > should I keep my #7? > You're asking people on _this_ list whether to keep an old tool? Ha! That's a good one! Kelly Cox in Madison WI Who just added a spiffy 608C (Bedrock he-man jointer, Jeff) for only $50 to the spot on the workshop shelf next to the #7...and plans on keeping (and using) the latter. ---- Start of Message 57730 (thread 25149) ---- From: "Ellis, Thomas R" Date: 1999-02-15 20:11:00 Subject: RE: #8 parts, cleaning My experience has been that the length of time the zapping takes is a combination of the size of the piece, the degree of rust, and the size of the anode. I recently started using an iron cylinder about 1/2" thick, with a diameter of about 10" and a height of about 3".(I think it's a slice of drain pipe.) I notice it takes much less time with this than it used to with smaller anodes. -Tom Ellis > -----Original Message----- > From: William H. Fissell [SMTP:whf@a...] > Sent: Monday, February 15, 1999 2:26 PM > To: oldtools@l... > Subject: #8 parts, cleaning > > Hi, > > I reviewd some of the web-based lore on tool cleaning, and I have zapped > several tools. > > The #8T4 I bought has been very resistant to zapping. After six hours in > the tank, the sides look great, but the inside looks like h*ll still. It > ahs maybe 10% japanning, and the rest is rust. ---- Start of Message 57731 (thread 25149) ---- From: Jim Bramel Date: 1999-02-15 20:32:00 Subject: Re: #8 parts, cleaning I thought that was true too. I clean mostly wrenches and they are clean over, under, inside of places that are facing away, etc. Jim At 01:42 PM 2/15/99 -0600, r_moore@t... wrote: > > (electrolysis is >largely a line-of-sight process, as I understand it). > Jim Bramel Phone: (606)257-2900 Ext. 263 224 McVey Hall Fax: (606)323-1978 University of Kentucky email: jbram00@p... Lexington, KY 40506-0045 ---- Start of Message 57738 (thread 25149) ---- From: Norman Witt Date: 1999-02-15 22:23:00 Subject: Re: #8 parts, cleaning Bill Fissell is refurbishing a #8, and asks: > Oh, one last thing... should I keep my #7? I suggest keeping both planes, but only long enough to determine which one you like best and or gets used the most. Then get rid of the one that collects dust. Like many here, I have a chronic storage space problem in my shop, and try to let go of some of the more obvious unused stuff. Norm W. who sold his #7 when he got his #8 ++++ End of thread 25149 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25150 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57727 (thread 25150) ---- From: Gil Chesbro Date: 1999-02-15 19:59:00 Subject: Tripping over the Big Iron GG's, On returning from northern Michigan, where I had been invited to lectur e on Global Positioning Systems, I spotted a junk shop by the side of the road. "Hope springs eternal in the breast of man," or some such thing, so I stopped and looked around. Perhaps it would be too generous to describe what I found there as landfill overflow. Nevertheless, I was determine to walk away with something, despite the pitted hansaws and bent braces. I decided on a screw driver, one I could regrind to remove saw nuts, the slots on which are wide but remarkably narrow. But even the screw driver bin was sub par: plastic handles and pot metal. I was ready to concede defeat. On the way out, I stepped into an alcove to gaze upon the remains of ch eap power tools, and proceeded to trip over a pile of cast iron on the floor. It was a vise. A big vise. A really big vise in excellent shape. I dropped to floor to read the inscription on the jaws. EMMERT'S PAT. AUG. 11 1891 APR.11.05 USA The other jaw said "82". The price tag said $54. Holy Toledo, Mudhead!!!!! A genuine Emmert Turtleback vise! So I wander up to the proprietor and stammer, "So, can you do any better on that big vise?" "Whatchya have in mind?" "$40?" "Cash?" "Ummm . . . sure." "OK" So I hand over two twenties and ask, "Can you carry it out to my car for me? I don't want to ruin my dress shirt." So he carries it to my car and gingerly places it in my trunk (boot, Jeff). I didn't realize what a service he'd done for me until later when I carried it down to my shop. As I prepare to close the trunk, I ask, "Do you have any idea what this thing was used for?" "Probably someone used it on the back of his truck," he replies. OK. So an Emmert for $40. That night, I read the section on Emmert vises in "The Workbench Book," pp. 137-141. All that's missing from mine is the removable tilt jaw. If I remember correctly, I think Gunterman posted something about someone selling reproductions of this part. Are you there, John? Anyway, my luck is still holding. I can't wait for the next Galootapolooza and Kane County flea market (a dig at certain Midwest galoots, the magnanimous Wes excepted, who were so bemused by my luck that kept refering to me as "YOU BASTARD!!!"). - Gil, still in Michigan ---- Start of Message 57732 (thread 25150) ---- From: chasnune@i... Date: 1999-02-15 20:53:00 Subject: RE: Tripping over the Big Iron >- Gil, still in Michigan wrote... > > OK. So an Emmert for $40. All that's missing > from mine is the removable tilt jaw. If I remember correctly, I think Gunterman posted something about someone selling reproductions of this part. > Anyway, my luck is still holding. I can't wait for the next > Galootapolooza and Kane County flea market (a dig at certain Midwest galoots, the > magnanimous Wes excepted, who were so bemused by my luck that > kept refering to me as "YOU BASTARD!!!"). > All right Cheesebro, Ya got my dander up. I was at said "Galootapalooza" and saw your find from Kane County. There was a recent ordinace passed about out-a-state Galoots beatin' up hapless vendors at rural flea markets. I think It is The MofA who has that tilt mechanism you seek, but I could be wrong. Sincerely sort of Charlie Nunemaker ---- Start of Message 57733 (thread 25150) ---- From: Abe Mathews Date: 1999-02-15 21:21:00 Subject: RE: Tripping over the Big Iron Gil gloated: > On returning from northern Michigan, > OK. So an Emmert for $40. Ya sure, eh! But you had to go to Northern MI to get it. Not worth it this time of year. I'll try finding one for myself when I'm up next summer, but it's not worth heading to the White-out to get one now. Not even if they threw in a dozen fresh pasties. Currently racking my brain for the location of every junk store between Houghton and Duluth- Abe Mathews Apprentice Galoot in Melbourne FL Making small maple pieces out of big ones! ---- Start of Message 57741 (thread 25150) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-02-15 22:44:00 Subject: RE: Tripping over the Big Iron I wish my luck was so good! I think that the tilting vise you are looking for is being reproduced and sold by none other than everyone's good friend Patrick Leach. Take a look at his web page for more details. I cannot speak for how good his replacement tilting jaw is due to my lack of an Emmert all together. If anyone out there wants to sell me one with only the tilting jaw missing for say $40.00 or so, I will buy a replacement from Patrick and give everyone out there a report. Too bad the replacement jaw is going to cost more than the entire vise. What a shame! Keith Rucker, Tifton, GA -----Original Message----- From: Gil Chesbro [mailto:chesbrog@a...] Sent: Monday, February 15, 1999 3:00 PM To: oldtools@l... Subject: Tripping over the Big Iron GG's, On returning from northern Michigan, where I had been invited to lectur e on Global Positioning Systems, I spotted a junk shop by the side of the road. "Hope springs eternal in the breast of man," or some such thing, so I stopped and looked around. Perhaps it would be too generous to describe what I found there as landfill overflow. Nevertheless, I was determine to walk away with something, despite the pitted hansaws and bent braces. I decided on a screw driver, one I could regrind to remove saw nuts, the slots on which are wide but remarkably narrow. But even the screw driver bin was sub par: plastic handles and pot metal. I was ready to concede defeat. On the way out, I stepped into an alcove to gaze upon the remains of ch eap power tools, and proceeded to trip over a pile of cast iron on the floor. It was a vise. A big vise. A really big vise in excellent shape. I dropped to floor to read the inscription on the jaws. EMMERT'S PAT. AUG. 11 1891 APR.11.05 USA The other jaw said "82". The price tag said $54. Holy Toledo, Mudhead!!!!! A genuine Emmert Turtleback vise! So I wander up to the proprietor and stammer, "So, can you do any better on that big vise?" "Whatchya have in mind?" "$40?" "Cash?" "Ummm . . . sure." "OK" So I hand over two twenties and ask, "Can you carry it out to my car for me? I don't want to ruin my dress shirt." So he carries it to my car and gingerly places it in my trunk (boot, Jeff). I didn't realize what a service he'd done for me until later when I carried it down to my shop. As I prepare to close the trunk, I ask, "Do you have any idea what this thing was used for?" "Probably someone used it on the back of his truck," he replies. OK. So an Emmert for $40. That night, I read the section on Emmert vises in "The Workbench Book," pp. 137-141. All that's missing from mine is the removable tilt jaw. If I remember correctly, I think Gunterman posted something about someone selling reproductions of this part. Are you there, John? Anyway, my luck is still holding. I can't wait for the next Galootapolooza and Kane County flea market (a dig at certain Midwest galoots, the magnanimous Wes excepted, who were so bemused by my luck that kept refering to me as "YOU BASTARD!!!"). - Gil, still in Michigan ---- Start of Message 57745 (thread 25150) ---- From: Wes Groot Date: 1999-02-16 01:08:00 Subject: Re: Tripping over the Big Iron All right, all right. This post has been up for a few hours already, and though I know that Charlie was thinking about it, I'll come out and say it: (again) You B*st*rd!! I'm about to call Leach and buy all his tilting jaws so you can't get one! And talk about your FOYBEVO;!! You didn't want to get your shirt dirty, so you had your victim carry it out to the car for you??? Ohh that makes my blood boil! And Brother Galoots! What makes this gloat all the more despicable is the fact that Gil sent me a note warning me that it was coming! Here's a quote: (without permission, So SUE ME!!) "I've got one hell of a good gloat to send to the list--better than Kane County--so stay tuned." He sent that to me last Thursday! Last Thursday!!! I've sent him two messages telling him I'm waiting on pins and needles!! Only to be hit hard in the gut with this. (He knows I like patternmaker's stuff too.) I'm writing a note to the Illinois brethren so we can keep Gil from spoiling this year's Galootapalooza IV. We'll have a secret password and handshake, and I won't pick him up at the train when he comes to town. We'll see who gets the last laugh! A week ago Gil was telling me over a laugh and a beer that He'll never live down that #112 scraper purchase at Kane County last year, well pal, you've really done it now. Having said all that, I will admit that it was Gil who got me to the edge and beyond on this slippery slope. I still have the piece of Sassafras that he used when he showed me how to use a spokeshave. He has answered tons of ignorant newbie questions about what I should and shouldn't get. He's helped me with techniques and tuning tools. He even helped me get the plywood out from under that parked car...(nevermind how it got there) And the worst part is that the b*st*rd offered me that #112 at Kane County last year and I could have said "Yup!", but the truth is that he saw it first, fair and square, and we were both standing right next to it! It just goes to show you, good things happen to good folks! I can't wait to see it! I'm still voting "yes" on using the password this summer. Jealously, wes ---- Start of Message 57767 (thread 25150) ---- From: Loganftp@a... Date: 1999-02-16 15:23:00 Subject: Re: Tripping over the Big Iron Gil Wrote: > The other jaw said "82". The price tag said $54. > Holy Toledo, Mudhead!!!!! A genuine Emmert Turtleback vise! Gezz, I thought I had found the preverbal $5 - #1 when I bought my #82 for $50 (but I didn't bargain) Great score Gil! 'Cept I didn't have the good sense to get someone to carry it to my car - and I did ruin a good shirt in the process. BTW - Mr. Leach is the purveyor of the tilt jaws - a really fine piece of work. Just make sure the bench you hang it from is VERY sturdy! DAMHIKT Dave Tobbe Michigaloot ++++ End of thread 25150 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25151 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57734 (thread 25151) ---- From: tom thornton Date: 1999-02-16 01:41:00 Subject: Degreaser As mentioned some weeks ago, I ungunk my severely gooked grinders in a tray of clean Kitty litter and old tooth brush. I do wear plastic gloves to save my heands. -- ( wise remarks will follow I'm sure ) Tom Thornton, Collector of old tools, specializing in hand cranked grindstones Cincinnati #3, F&AM, Morristown, New Jersey, USA ++++ End of thread 25151 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25152 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57735 (thread 25152) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-02-15 21:27:00 Subject: RE: Old sewing machines - soap- misc. Ken, Several years ago, I had the privilege (at least I think you would call it that) to be a male chaperone for a group of Baptist college students on a mission trip to Arlington, TX. While I was there, I remember seeing a museum devoted to sewing machines while ridding around picking up old furniture and stuff for the needy (of course while trying to find some old tools at the same time). While I am not one who does a lot of sewing, it looked interesting due to my common interest in human powered machines. I did not have time to stop so I cannot tell you if they have something like you are interested in, but there may be some galoots in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area that might be willing to check it out or at least find you a contact person at the museum. Keith Rucker Tifton, GA -----Original Message----- From: Ken and Mary Ann Vaughan [mailto:kvaughan@p...] Sent: Sunday, February 14, 1999 8:00 PM To: Old Tools Subject: Old sewing machines - soap- misc My SWMBO (who was that before I joined this group) has a version of old tool syndrom but with a different rat tailed flavor. She is a quilter of great seriousness that migrated into sewing machines -- especially old sewing machines. Some of the sewing machines are as old or older than the wooden moulding planes I am seeking to acquire. Some are treadle, some are hand cranks and many have old-old tails. I do not .count sewing machines and she does not count my acquisitions -- But she really wants a singer featherweight table -- cannot find one so I am under orders to make one. There are photos on the web (gloats mostly) - but I need some dimensions and details. Per chance are there any who might have or know someone who has one of these -- Style is not especially attractive but the mounting hardware and some mounting details would help. I can redesign to better style, but getting better scale and details.... Just got my bill for Paddy's Shellac-o-rama -- I did not realize until a recent post that I too am a shellac-shill -- I use it with repair restoration an recover of the cases, tables etc for the sewing machines. Great stuff!!! Note on the use of lye for degreasing -- I have a daughter who is a soap maker -- renders kidney tallow and uses lye to make soap just like great grandmother did. Lye is not a friendly material -- but neither is a hot forge, a sharp blade, etc. In small quantities (ounces), mixed carefully according to instructions, and properly disposed of, it is an effective material to cut gunge. I think it beats hydrocarbon solvents. Draino of years past was lye that went down the drain -- the water behind it created heat which hastened reactions with hair balls and grease which cleared out and down the drain. Use rubber gloves and eye protection when mixing the dry lye with water as there is tremendous heat production and boiling/splattering may result. Water in large quanties are used to wash/flush any concentrated materials that come into contact with skin. This stuff will disolve wood. Small quantities (an ounce or two), that are residual in solution (with the grease that is now soap) can safely be flushed down the toilet. In those quantities, there will be minimal disturbance in a septic tank - drainfield, and a sewer system flows will mix and dilute it rapidly. (P.S. My engineering training is in environmental engineering and I have worked as a turd herder in earlier years). Purists may flame me directly. Ken Vaughan -- In Juneau Alaska where the days are getting longer and the snow is raining away -- and who has just ordered a mallet (drool drool drool). Thinking of fishing to come and halibut to catch. ++++ End of thread 25152 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25153 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57737 (thread 25153) ---- From: David Strommen Date: 1999-02-15 17:00:00 Subject: Re: Union Plane - 15-3/4? Hey Galoots, I need some help in identifing a Union plane I have. Its very similar to the Stanley 15-3/4 with the ball tail. Its 7"L and the body is 2" - no blade. It has a movable throat with a slider (side to side) to adjust the throat under the front brass knob. The hump on the side of the body is farther toward the back like in the 15-3/4. The blade cap has a lever underneath that moves to the side to lock it down. The side to side adjuster curves down over the depth adjuster and down between the tail bracket. I think Stanley bought Union but it does have Union in the bed at the back squeezed in behind the ball tail bracket which is held in place under the depth adjuster. Anyone have information on this?? Was it a relatively common one? Any idea as to value? Dave Strommen (a galoot in training) Elkhart, IN ++++ End of thread 25153 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25154 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57739 (thread 25154) ---- From: Aaron Ionta Date: 1999-02-15 22:30:00 Subject: Re: Old sewing machines Feather Weight Sewing Machine Stand Hello all - th elady that runs this B&B deals in Feather Weight Machines - and may be a god source fr inof on making a tabe/stand Nice B&B and a lot of Anti-Q stores in the area Aaron taak Larch Pine Inn 401 N. Third St. 515-357-7854 Three rooms with private bath, full breakfast, open all year. 1875 Victoria n home with antique furniture, queen and twin beds, quilts, and screened porch with wicker furniture. Lounge and kitchenette available. ======================================================================= Aaron Ionta (612)903-2032 W) Application Support Engineer (888)688-8324 x2032 Toll Free Intranet Solutions Inc. aaron.ionta@i... ++++ End of thread 25154 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25155 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57742 (thread 25155) ---- From: "John L. Odom" Date: 1999-02-15 22:53:00 Subject: "Citrus" cleaner A local janitor supply firm makes a "citrus" cleaner that consists of low oror mineral spirits, soap, and citrus oil. The soap and mineral spirits do the work. Some have mineral spirits and a synthetic detergent that will dissolve "clear" instead of soap. The citrus is a sales gimic. Some others at least are very similar. I did the analysis of several others so this local guy could bring out his own product. John Odom ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ++++ End of thread 25155 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25156 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57743 (thread 25156) ---- From: "Kelly Cox" Date: 1999-02-15 22:52:00 Subject: FW: Factors of 2 (was RE: #8 parts, cleaning) > >[snip Bill electrozapping a #8] > >> > >>Oh, one last thing... > >> > >>should I keep my #7? > >> > Steve writes.... > > BILLY, Billy, billy! Where ya been? Of course we > >in the Slippery Slope Support Group from Hell are going > >to require you to have both the #7 and #8. You NEED the > >#7 when the #8 is too big and the #6 (ya got one of dem > >don't ya?) is too small. And start working on the set. > >You NEED two of each, one set rank the other fine. > > Steve Steve..... yer slipping....you forgot to mention those > ESSENTIAL "c" > models...you know, the ones that won't stick to those big cocobolo panels > you're always gluing up..... > > Tom > > Ah, Tom, there's also the _very_ convenient planes that have the frog adjusted for a wide mouth, for planing pine and the like....lesseee, I think this put us up to eight of _each_ type of plane, right? -Kelly ++++ End of thread 25156 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25157 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57744 (thread 25157) ---- From: "Kelly Cox" Date: 1999-02-15 22:53:00 Subject: Q: Treman Bros. Esteemed Galoots; Speaking of the last Galootapalooza and Kane County FM, (he sez, taking aim at the nearest spittoon) I picked up a simple round marked Treman Bros. Ithaca NY. Now my SWMBO and I moved only recently from PRINY, and so I was quite familiar with the name Treman (lots of stuff in the area is named for one or the other of the brothers). I didn't think the plane was anything rare. But since then, I haven't seen any mention of Treman brothers as planemakers, and I've asked a few who at MWTCA meets who ought to know. Anyone have some information on these makers? I wouldn't mind getting more molding planes made by them, since they would be somewhat of a memento of my stay in PRINY (which is fondly remembered--only town I've lived that ever had a socialist mayor). Regards, Kelly Cox Madison, WI ---- Start of Message 57746 (thread 25157) ---- From: DAN WEINSTOCK Date: 1999-02-15 22:34:00 Subject: Re: Q: Treman Bros. Hi Kelly, >But since then, I haven't seen any mention of Treman brothers as planemakers, That's because they were hardware retailers, not makers. Treman, King and Co., and all that. Regards, Dan Weinstock Geneva, N.Y. weindan@h... ++++ End of thread 25157 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25158 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57747 (thread 25158) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-02-16 00:38:00 Subject: Australopithecus alone in the workshop Before there was a Neanderthal there was Australopithecus. His skill with tools was not the stuff of legends. It's a long weekend I decided to finish up this little side table I am making. It has maple base and for the top I found some lovely figured cherry boards at the local lumber yard. The project is going great and it's going to look very nice. I am getting ready for glue up and fussing obsessively with getting the tenon shoulders to close up tight. The apron and legs are great but I have these two short stretchers that are to attach the top and they are tenoned into the apron. It's not really necessary that these joints be tight, but like I said , I am getting anal. I test fit one of these stretchers and it goes in too tight. I try to pull it out but it's stuck. (You know, I think the wood compresses to enter the joint and then swells a bit making it much harder to pull out?). Instead of finding my mallet and a block of soft scrap to drive the joint apart, I pull some more - it's only a short tenon , 1/2" long. We argue back and forth, it gives a tiny bit, I resort to rocking (bad! I know it) and then suddenly it says "You win!" and lets go. Well, I am still pulling hard and the other end (nicely cut little tenon with neat sharp edges) slams into the middle of my forehead. I stagger about the garage moaning and holding my head. When the nausea subsides I notice that my hand is bloody and a glance in the mirror reveals, sure enough, I have a gash right in the middle of my forehead. Now it's no where near big enough to generate any sympathy but you can't miss it and I am going to have to explain it to everyone I meet. So, if you are at a garage sale and you spot this character trailing his knuckles on the ground and sporting a big dent in the middle of his sloping forehead you will know who it is. Please be kind, steer him towards the hammers and make sure he doesn't buy anything sharp. Adam (tool using hominid) P.S. The glue up went just peachy and once the top is attached you won't even be able to see the bloodstains. ---- Start of Message 57755 (thread 25158) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-16 09:38:00 Subject: Re: Australopithecus alone in the workshop -----Original Message----- From: Adam Whiteson Date: Tuesday, 16 February 1999 07:56 Subject: Australopithecus alone in the workshop >P.S. The glue up went just peachy and once the top is attached you won't >even be able to see the bloodstains. As another member of the A class of hominid, I can't help but to sympathise. Yet I'd leave the bloodstains. I just call them "patina". Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ---- Start of Message 57796 (thread 25158) ---- From: "Ron Harper" Date: 1999-02-16 00:13:00 Subject: Re: Australopithecus alone in the workshop Adam's amusing tale massively snipped >forth, it gives a tiny bit, I resort to rocking (bad! I know it) and then >suddenly it says "You win!" and lets go. Well, I am still pulling hard and >the other end (nicely cut little tenon with neat sharp edges) slams into >the middle of my forehead. I stagger about the garage moaning and holding >my head. > >When the nausea subsides I notice that my hand is bloody and a glance in >the mirror reveals, sure enough, I have a gash right in the middle of my >forehead OH Tee Hee Adam There are Galooterati who will not confess this, But I been there and done that. Tell them it is a duelling wound. It is sorta Ron > >-- > > ---- Start of Message 57843 (thread 25158) ---- From: Carl W Muhlhausen Date: 1999-02-17 16:14:00 Subject: Re: Australopithecus alone in the workshop Adam Whiteson wrote: > > When the nausea subsides I notice that my hand is bloody and a glance in > the mirror reveals, sure enough, I have a gash right in the middle of my > forehead. Now it's no where near big enough to generate any sympathy but > you can't miss it and I am going to have to explain it to everyone I meet. > > So, if you are at a garage sale and you spot this character trailing his > knuckles on the ground and sporting a big dent in the middle of his sloping > forehead you will know who it is. Please be kind, steer him towards the > hammers and make sure he doesn't buy anything sharp. > > Adam (tool using hominid) > > P.S. The glue up went just peachy and once the top is attached you won't > even be able to see the bloodstains. I don't see the problem - was there any damage to the project or any tools? Just pick yourself up off the floor and carry on. At my wife's insistence we now have protocol for when I emerge from the shop bleeding. If I don't expect any help, I'm allowed to bleed into the sink in manly silence, but if I need help or the blood is dripping on the floor, I must announce it to the world. This sets off a running commentary between the kids like: "Can you help him Emily? I'm in the middle of Nintendo." "Oh, this is a lot worse than the last time." "When's it going to stop bleeding?" etc... Carl ---- Start of Message 57855 (thread 25158) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-02-17 18:44:00 Subject: Re: Australopithecus alone in the workshop One other protocol is convenient with injuries. Leave the spouse a note. My Dad put a long gash across his forehead with a pry bar he was using on his pier(don't ask-- don't even imagine). The gash sort of gave him a flip open scalp. As with any scalp wound it bled profusely. He wrapped his shirt around his head to keep the blood out of his eyes and went into the house leaving a blood trail from the pier. After a few stumbling moments of "it will be alright" in the kitchen, he realized he needed stitches and began to worry about blood loss as he was still bleeding heavily. As Mom wasn't home , he telephoned a neighbor for a ride to the emergency room. Since the shirt was soaked through when the neighbor got there, they took that off, dropping it on the floor, and wrapped his head in a towel for the trip. Mom came home, found blood all over the kitchen floor, smeared on the wall and telephone, a bloody shirt, and no Dad. A call to the sheriff's office caused them to check the ambulance service (no ambulance call) and the emergency room (he either was not there yet or the records had not yet flowed through the bureaucratic maze). The deputy who came to the house immediately realized that he had a particularly vicious murder on his hands. Having found the blood trail,and th e differing bloody footprints of dad and the neighbor, he had concluded Dad had been killed in the kitchen by the intruder and the body hastily disposed of in the bay. Reinforcements and the police boat were on the way, about the time th e neighbor stopped by to tell Mom that she would need to pick up Dad at the hospital in an hour or so. Mom, of course, was left with the conflicting emotions of anger and sympathy. Since she muttered something about he "could rot in the emergency room " I assume that anger was predominant. Then again she she did pick him up. Regards, John Lederer Oregon, Wisconsin ---- Start of Message 57874 (thread 25158) ---- From: Joe Jerkins Date: 1999-02-17 21:52:00 Subject: Re: Australopithecus alone in the workshop A similar thing happened to my mother as well. It happened right after my parents were married. My mom was at work and dad was washing the upstairs windows. He leaned out of the window using the awning as a hand rest. Well, as you can guess, the awning gave way and he tumbled out of the second story window. Having been a recent graduate of the FBI Acadamy he was taught to tuck and roll and lessen the damage due to impact. He did this and it worked well until he came out of his first roll face first into the stairwell's cement retaining wall. He said he staggered up stairs to the bathroom because he was worried that he lost his front teeth. He didn't. He did, however, have a broken nose and knee cap. Unlike John Lederer's story, he phoned his boss and told him what happened. He in turn phoned my mom at work and told her what had happened so that when she got home and saw blood all over the sidewalk, stairs, bathroom and phone she wouldn't panic. Well... anymore than one would seeing all that blood. To this day, my dad has never cleaned another window. I guess both these stories demonstrate the benefit of letting someone else know what's up if you get hurt in the shop and need to leave. Joe Jerkins San Francisco Thinking it's kind of an extreme way to be able to say "I don't do windows". Back to lurk mode. ---- Start of Message 57939 (thread 25158) ---- From: "Flowers, Curt" Date: 1999-02-18 19:16:00 Subject: RE: Australopithecus alone in the workshop > -----Original Message----- > From: Adam Whiteson [SMTP:adamwhiteson@m...] > > Before there was a Neanderthal there was Australopithecus. His skill > with > tools was not the stuff of legends. . . . > Well, I am still pulling hard and > the other end (nicely cut little tenon with neat sharp edges) slams into > the middle of my forehead. I stagger about the garage moaning and holding > my head. > Curt responds, with tears in his eyes and folks down the cubicle boulevard wondering why he's laughing so hard: Well , I'm laughing because I displayed two slits across the bridge of my nose for a week. A result of when I was desperately pulling out a nail (an old one) with a flat bar, when I cussed ... and it let loose! Yes...stagger is the word. (Do any of you also find your head hitting something or some other minor malady happen after you cuss? Hmmmm...) -Curt Flowers, Central Illinois ---- Start of Message 57965 (thread 25158) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-19 00:36:00 Subject: Re: Australopithecus alone in the workshop >(Do any of you also find your head hitting something or some other minor >malady happen after you cuss? Hmmmm...) For me it's usually the other way around... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) On the road in Newark, NJ wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 57997 (thread 25158) ---- From: Tom Corey Date: 1999-02-19 11:48:00 Subject: RE: Australopithecus alone in the workshop Curt wrote: > Well , I'm laughing because I displayed two slits across the bridge of my > nose for a week. A result of when I was desperately pulling out a nail (an > old one) with a flat bar, when I cussed ... and it let loose! Yes...stagger > is the word. The license plate on my car reads "CROWBAR". See, there was this jobsite close encounter twixt said crowbar and the bridge o' my nose. Yeah, that was my hand "guiding" this tool. Once the spike gives up and the timber moves the laws of acceleration grab that crowbar and you don't have time to get out of the way. The cussing started after this time. The scar still lives on my face. Tom Corey sloping forehead and notch between the eyes ++++ End of thread 25158 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25159 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57749 (thread 25159) ---- From: "Chuck Zitur" Date: 1999-02-16 04:54:00 Subject: FS planes Hi all. Here is a new group of planes that are on my web page at http://www.mcn.net/~anchor/Planes2.htm Links there will lead to pictures. I will be posting some other mini FS lists as the week goes on. Thank you for taking a look. Chuck Zitur FSP1 A Stanley type 3 #46 combination plane. Has only one cutter which is skewed but may not be proper. Missing the depth stop and screw on the skate. Light rust on interior bare surface of skate...should polish off leaving very fine pits. 75% or more of japan. Wooden handle and knob are not cracked and unbroken. Traut patent information still readable on handle. With no blades still a deal at $160.00 FSP2 A good start on a pre-lateral Stanley #4 smooth plane. The tote has the top gone. The front knob has 2 tight cracks at the base. The body is uncracked or chipped with about 30% japan. The frog has about 75% japan. The lever cap seems proper. The cutter has the round opening at the top but is unmarked and like new. The chip breaker is rusty and incorrect. A diamond in the rough. $68.00 FSP4 A Stanley #5 1/2 bench plane. The nickel plated chip breaker has fine pits over the entire surface. The rest of the plane should clean up with only very fine pits in a few places. The tall front knob has a small lateral crack at the base which should be glued to stabilize it. The wood doesn't seem to match the tote but is correct to the plane. The tote has the very top end worn off in usage. (Not broken) Generally dirty and will clean up to be a good user. $59.00 FSP5 A Stanley type 9 (though with out the frog adjuster) 5 1/2C bench plane. Q cutter. Plane is dark from corrosion but should clean up with only very fine pits in a few places. M carved his 1" initial on one side. The knob is good. The tote has a clean break that can be glued. A great user and close to a good collectible. $62.00 FSP6 Redundantly here is a Stanley again. This is a #6 type 6A (1891 and 1892). The L Bailey patent info is in the brass cutter adjustment nut and on the chip breaker. The plane is dirty but will clean to at least good condition. The tote and knob are complete and are not cracked or broken. Very little wear. This solid worker is over 100 years old SOLD FSP7 A type 18 (1946 to 1947) Stanley #4 plane with the spiffy black magic handles. This one is in great shape with nearly all paint on wood, body and frog. Lever cap has about 6 little pits on it. Sides, bottom and cutter need some cleaning to bring the whole thing to a good plus. $38.00 FSP8 A Stanley Defiance #1203 plane with a gray body, nickel plated lever cap and nearly perfect red stained wood tote and knob. Sides, bottom and cutter need cleaining but overall the plane is good plus. Some paint drops to remove here and there. $28.00 FSP10 Millers Falls #14 type 5 (1955 to 1966) with the heavy orange varnish on tote and knob. About 95% paint on body and frog. Hinged lever cap has some very very very fine pits. The tote is perfect. The knob would be if not for the nickel sized area where some hot object blistered the finish. Some light staining on the cutter and chip breaker that will probably polish out $32.00 FSP11 Another Millers Falls #14 type 4. This is a bottom feeder special for those who don't have time to get out and feed because of JOBS and FAMILY. Dirty and rusty but not broken. I would be happy to dip the metal in the electro tank before shipping. The wood is up to you. Own your first jack plane for $14.00 FSP12 And to carry the theme on here is a Stanley #5 type 18. The black paint is mostly gone from the wood and the bed. Everything else will look pretty good with just a quick cleaning. Nothing broken or incomplete. No pitting rust. $17.00 FSP13 A user Stanley #5 1/4 type 13 with a replaced cutter and lever cap. Knob is good. The tote is missing the top of the horn. About 85% of the japanning. Sides are clean but bottom has some fine pitting in two areas. $55.00 FSP14 Though unmarked I believe this to be a Stanley #46 type 11. (probably made for Monkey Wards or a wholesale hardware company.) Has only plane body and fence. Skate is missing as are the short arms. Depth stop is missing from body. Nickel plating is about 60%. One rusty but skewed cutter. Still it must be worth $39.00 FSP15 A type 13 (1945 to 1952) #71 router from Stanley. This is the body, knobs, blade holder and adjustment and one blade (1/2"). Throat closing device is missing but the thumbnut is there. The parts are available from Stanley. Knobs are good but missing most of the black paint. $42.00 FSP16 A Stanley type 5 #71 router plane with B casting mark. Has the first throat closing device with the post being a piece of hardware rod. All else is there and unbroken or chipped. About 65% of the nickel plating is there. One 1/2" cutter. This was manufactured 1899 to 1902. $65.00 FSP18 Stanley #6C type 10 (1907 to 1909) bench plane. About 80% japan on bed and frog. Everything is proper with exception of chip breaker which is a rusty replacement. Cutter has some pits at edge but will lap out or grind back as there is a lot of blade left. The near perfect tote is snapped in the middle---a clean break awaiting your glue bottle. Knob is great. Numerous small paint splatters. $55.00 FSP19 A Stanley #6 type 11 (1910 to 1918) Brown bare metal parts need cleaning but should have no pitting. The wood is uncracked or broken but need some cleaning. Cutter is a more recent replacement. $48.00 FSP22 Stanley Two Tone OH20 block plane type 2 (1950 to 1951) The blade hold down is yellow the body black. The black may be a repaint---I can not quite tell. Otherwise needs a little cleaning to be good plus $25.00 FSP23 Fulton adjustable mouth knuckle joint block plane. This is a Sargent #5306 made for Fulton (Sears). Nice little plane in good condition. Cutter needs cleaning. $40.00 FSP24 Sargent #5306 block plane type 5 (1942 to 1950) This has a black knuckle joint lever cap which I believe is the black nitrate used 1948 to 1949. Sides, bottom and cutter are dark and need cleaning. The rest of the plane could use a quick dusting and damp wipe. $35.00 Thats all for now. Thanks. Chuck Zitur Billings, Montana anchor@m... ++++ End of thread 25159 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25160 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57750 (thread 25160) ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 1999-02-16 05:10:00 Subject: More Is Better (was Re: #8 parts, cleaning) Steve Reynolds wrote: >The support group is here to help. The support >group advises getting all you can. More is better. >No room for tools, HA! Get rid of one when you >get the other, would you get rid of your son when >you got your daughter? This probably explains Steve's 'Drawer O' Block Planes' and the fact that he now has three Workmates in his basement. He damn near ended up with not one but two Emmert vises this week. Never seen the like. Course, I got this Disston monkey on my back so I'm one to talk. Just bought another Disston backsaw (24" for my back-up miterbox) at the flea market on Friday. Guy wanted $15 and I got him down to $10. Steve must have smelled blood in the water during the haggling and was quiet on the way back to work. Finally he said, "Wonder if you could have got that guy down lower than $10." He scares me when his teeth get pointy and that dorsal fin suddenly appears. Lordy me, I'm just careful not to stand between him and a Witherby chisel. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Got A Monkey On My Back That Taps Me On The Head Whenever It Sees A Disston Excerpts From The 1942 Disston Saw Manual are featured at The Galoot's Progress: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ++++ End of thread 25160 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25161 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57751 (thread 25161) ---- From: Rick Young Date: 1999-02-16 17:11:00 Subject: Just learning Questions Galoots, I am somewhat new at working wood with hand tools and have a few questions. Using the old saying that "The only stupid question is the one you didn't ask" 1.) I need a good saw.....have several but can see from your posts that they are not what i need for this kind of work. What is the best to start with as that is the point I am at now......"What should my first saw be?" 2.) I have some good Stanley chisels.....bought about 1982. I would like to get some Mortise chizels......"Which ones to start with?" I want to build a good work bench and use this type of joint. 3.) Do I need gouges??.... I have some pretty good planes: #5 Stanley Jack Plane, #7 Stanley Jointer Plane, a 9 1/2 Stanley, a 60 1/2 stanley, and a Millers Falls. My saws are old but rusted and bent for the most part..... I found a Stanley #71 Router plane the other day for $25 , didnt have plane iron or fence. Didnt buy it. Any help you are willing to give will be greatly appreciated Thank you Rick ---- Start of Message 57778 (thread 25161) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-02-16 16:57:00 Subject: Re: Just learning Questions Rick Young wrote: > I am somewhat new at working wood with hand tools >and have a few questions. Using the old saying that >"The only stupid question is the one you didn't ask" I hope others chime in or ping you in response to your queries. Here are a few hints: On saws, look for a Disston brand crosscut and rip (ie, two saws), with straight and unpitted blades. They can be sharpened new, so the condition of the teeth is not a major issue if the blade is basically sound. Most any Disston old enough to have a logo embossed (ie, etched) in the middle of the left side of the blade should be good enough quality for a starter-outer. The handle should also feel good to your grip, rounded and not prone to blistering the area between your thumb and forefinger, indicating a certain age when quality was better. Atkins and Simmonds are also quality old saw brands. You wrote: >I found a Stanley #71 Router plane the other day for $25 , didnt have plane >iron or fence. Didnt buy it. If everything else is there, and it is in decent condition, go back and buy it. If the bottom of the sole does not have two grooves across it, then it's an earlier model that did not come with a fence. Most of what they are used for does not require a fence in any case. You can get replacement irons for this puppy, either through a WTB to the list or from Stanley, I believe. And $25, while not a bottom feeder's dream, is not a bad price for a #71 in good shape, even without irons. Good luck, Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 57784 (thread 25161) ---- From: RayTSmith@a... Date: 1999-02-16 20:01:00 Subject: Re: Just learning Questions In a message dated 99-02-16 12:58:43 EST, thh1@c... writes: << You can get replacement irons for this puppy, either through a WTB to the list or from Stanley, I believe. And $25, while not a bottom feeder's dream, is not a bad price for a #71 in good shape, even without irons. >> The new irons don't fit some of the old router planes... the hex shank is too big, and won't stuff up into the collar. Suppose they could be filed down, if this is the case, but its a lot of work as opposed to getting a router plane with good blades to begin with... Nope, I dunno which types will/will not work with new irons. I got one at home that won't work with new irons, but I've never bothered to check which type # it is. Ray T. Smith ---- Start of Message 57791 (thread 25161) ---- From: Wes Groot Date: 1999-02-17 01:43:00 Subject: Re: Just learning Questions Hi Rick, read your message on Oldtools, and thought I'd chime in... One of the most important thing to learn (IMHO) is how to sharpen the irons in your planes. If you're not familiar with the "Scary Sharp" system, please consider it because of its low cost and generally terrific results. If I'm not mistaken, there is a detailed description of the system on someone's Oldtools page. Perhaps someone reading this knows the URL? If not, just send me an e-mail and I'll pass on to you what I've learned. Good Galooting! Wes Rick Young wrote: > > Galoots, > > I am somewhat new at working wood with hand tools and have a few questions. > Using the old saying that "The only stupid question is the one you didn't ask " > > 1.) I need a good saw.....have several but can see from your posts that they > are not what i need for this kind of work. What is the best to start with > as that is the point I am at now......"What should my first saw be?" > > 2.) I have some good Stanley chisels.....bought about 1982. > I would like to get some Mortise chizels......"Which ones to start with?" > I want to build a good work bench and use this type of joint. > > 3.) Do I need gouges??.... > > I have some pretty good planes: #5 Stanley Jack Plane, #7 Stanley Jointer > Plane, a 9 1/2 Stanley, a 60 1/2 stanley, and a Millers Falls. > My saws are old but rusted and bent for the most part..... > > I found a Stanley #71 Router plane the other day for $25 , didnt have plane > iron or fence. Didnt buy it. > > Any help you are willing to give will be greatly appreciated > > Thank you > Rick > > -- ---- Start of Message 57794 (thread 25161) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-17 00:11:00 Subject: Re: Just learning Questions >Perhaps someone reading this knows the URL? like: http://people.ne.mediaone.net/spokeshave/SCARY.HTM also required reading (and should probly be read first) is: http://www.hocktools.com/sharpen.htm ---- Start of Message 57812 (thread 25161) ---- From: Norman Witt Date: 1999-02-17 05:36:00 Subject: Re: Just learning Questions The short answer would be a 5-1/2 point rip saw and an 8 point crosscut for your basic 2 saw set. The real answer is more complicated, and highly biased by personal preference. My personal preference is for 8 or 9 tpi on the crosscut, and probably about 4 or 5 on the rip. I also think a backsaw (14" at about 12 tpi) is very close to being a necessity, if you want to saw tenons and dovetails. The specifics of how coarse the teeth need to be depends on the thickness of the stock you normally saw, and how you like to work. I don't like planing end grain, so my crosscutting tends to be done with a fine toothed saw; this makes for a smooth cut that requires less cleanup. Rip cuts are generally long, and clean up easily with a plane, so I like to use the coarsest ripsaw I can lay my hands on. Note that while a 3-1/2 point saw is great for ripping 8/4 oak, it is absolutely useless on 1/2" stock. My current set of handsaws has 3 crosscuts at 7, 8, and 10 tpi, and 2 rips at 6 and 4-1/2. The 7 point crosscut never gets used; stock as large as 8/4 cuts smoother and faster with the 8 point saw, and I suspect the 7 point is best suited to green softwoods. The 8 and 10 both get used extensively. I also have a short 10 point crosscut that never gets used; I tend to use a miter box and backsaw for the finer work it would normally be used for. My 4-1/2 point rip does the lion's share of the work. The 6 point rip is adequate for 1/2 inch stock, but I worry about splitting and think it should be finer for this work. Last weekend I finally stumbled across 3 rip saws in what I consider to be optimum (for me) sizes: 3-1/2, 5-1/2, and 8 tpi. They need cleaning and sharpening, but if they live up to their potential I expect them to replace my 2 current rips entirely. A good starting reference for this is _Restoring, Tuning & Using Classic Woodworking Tools_, by Mike Dunbar. In addition to being the most useful single book you can buy on old tools, it has an appendix with lists of tools for basic, intermediate, and complete shops; these lists are an excellent starting point for deciding how to start your shop. Mike recommends 3 saws for the basic shop: a 7 tpi crosscut, a 6 tpi rip, and a 12 tpi backsaw. From his general preference for finer rip saws than mine, I suspect he is a lot better at ripping close to the finish line than I am. Norm W. who currently has too many saws. ---- Start of Message 57813 (thread 25161) ---- From: ecoyle@c... (eric coyle) Date: 1999-02-17 05:42:00 Subject: Re: Just learning Questions In a message dated 99-02-16 12:58:43 EST, thh1@c... writes: << You can get replacement irons for this puppy, either through a WTB to the list or from Stanley, I believe. And $25, while not a bottom feeder's dream, is not a bad price for a #71 in good shape, even without irons. >> Ray responds................... The new irons don't fit some of the old router planes... the hex shank is too big, and won't stuff up into the collar. Suppose they could be filed down, if this is the case, but its a lot of work as opposed to getting a router plane with good blades to begin with... Nope, I dunno which types will/will not work with new irons. I got one at home that won't work with new irons, but I've never bothered to check which type # it is. Ray T. Smith **************************************************** Cowtown Eric, simplistic sage of sub-bottom feeding offers the sublime advice that Allen keys can be ground up to serve as 71 bits if your little heart desires. Fair to good steel in them puppies, right shape, and cheap. Just don't grind up the real old ones..... E. ---- Start of Message 57830 (thread 25161) ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1999-02-17 14:46:00 Subject: Re: Just learning Questions Norman Witt wrote: > > Norm W. > who currently has too many saws. Whoa, hold up there, buddy! Too many saws? Can't be. Nope. Ed ---- Start of Message 57841 (thread 25161) ---- From: elschaffer@j... Date: 1999-02-17 16:26:00 Subject: Re: Just learning Questions >Norman Witt wrote: >> >> Norm W. >> who currently has too many saws. > Too many saws? Too many saws?????????? One CANNOT have too many saws! --ErvSawwwwwwwz ( Acceptor of excess saws----) ---- Start of Message 57848 (thread 25161) ---- From: tkissam@c... (Todd Kissam) Date: 1999-02-17 17:54:00 Subject: Re: Just learning Questions At 09:26 AM 2/17/99 -0700, you wrote: >>Norman Witt wrote: >>> >>> Norm W. >>> who currently has too many saws. >> >Too many saws? Too many saws?????????? One CANNOT have too many saws! >--ErvSawwwwwwwz > ( Acceptor of excess saws----) This is an example of the great advantage to a galoot of wooden planes. A well stocked cabinetmaker of the mid 19th century could have had 300 or 400 planes. I had 500+ but reduced to less than 300, so there can be some illusion of not appearing to be hopelessly addicted. And as long as I have less of other types of old tools than my planes - the "look" of SWMBO etc will continued to be focused on the "less than historically" amount of tools necessary for use in a particular trade. 8 or 9 braces (or is it 20+) or 15 saws are never even noticed by anyone reviewing the c*ll*ct**n. --- On the other hand, if you have more than a dozen braces, saws or jackplanes - without wooden plane backup - you are sick! ;^) I am sure that I am not alone in offering a place to donate such items in the interest of your health etc. Todd (We had a community yard sale on sat. - I displayed my Y2k compliant screw drivers (miller falls), portable drills (braces), routers (old widows teeth) etc. - but there were no takers....) ++++ End of thread 25161 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25162 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57753 (thread 25162) ---- From: "William H. Fissell" Date: 1999-02-16 04:42:00 Subject: Ohio Tools? #01? Whose block plane, anyway? Hi, couldn't resist a puzzle. There's a non-Satanley #1 on that dreaded auction service It doesn't match any of the PTAMPIA known No. 1 sizes electronic manipulation of the images suugests a hint of an Ohio Tool Co logo (vague ghost of a round figure with a stripe across it) on the top of the blade. Guesses to identity? Also, in Bavaro and Mossman's book on Stckley, there is a block plane in use on page 70. Never seenone like it. Guesses to identity? thought I'd stir them waters thanks, Bill ---- Start of Message 57759 (thread 25162) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-02-16 14:08:00 Subject: Re: Ohio Tools? #01? Whose block plane, anyway? All, As to the small "not Stanley" plane for sale on eBay, Bill asked whose it was and "saw" a possible Ohio label in the blade. I too looked at the digital picture through software enhancement. I believe I saw what Bill did on the blade, but I don't see it as Ohio or any other legible mark. I guess the only way to tell for sure is to buy it. The seller has clearly (cleverly?) stated it is not a Stanley. There i s no indication of how he knew that and doesn't know the actual maker. That could be legitimate. I often know that a tool isn't Starrett-made by the characteristics of the tool. However, I also can describe those characteristics for others to figure out who made it. But, if it was made by a craftsman, I might not wan to. Remember, there are quite a few FAKE Stanley #1's out there. The current bid price is close to what the salvageable parts may be wor th. The current bidder is quite knowledgeable and just lost a bid for a #1 last week at around $1200. So, to know for sure, you'll have to bid it up to "winner's" price! Buyer beware! *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * *********************************************** ---- Start of Message 57776 (thread 25162) ---- From: Bill Neely Date: 1999-02-16 17:21:00 Subject: Re: Ohio Tools? #01? Whose block plane, anyway? "Karl W. Sanger" wrote: > > All, > As to the small "not Stanley" plane for sale on eBay, Bill Forgive me for pointing out the obvious but wouldn't 'not Stanley' be a strategy to ensure that anyone entering 'Stanley' into the search engine will be seeing this item too. Bill Neely ++++ End of thread 25162 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25163 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57757 (thread 25163) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-16 13:50:00 Subject: WTB Greetings GG's, It's been awhile since I posted a WTB list, so I thought I'd try again, those who study these lists fastideously willl note that mine continues to shrink .... s-l-o-w-l-y ...... still, I got another #149 arch punch in the box so that list is down to two.... completed the set of BAILEY BITS.... sooooo, I admit it, I'm addicted to the hunt. I suppose that when these sets are complete I'll look for something else ...... having fun buying tools of ebony and brass.... Figured teh shop might as well be purty as well as functional here tis (and here's hoping) Want to Buy List: Eric Anton Berg chisels/tools Eskilstuna, Sweden Casey and Co. or Casey, Kitchell and Co. woodies WILLIAM MARPLES & SON, SHEFFIELD H&Rs in sizes #11 / 14 / 15 MATHIESON H&Rs Stanley 921 Braces in 6 and 14 inch swings Stanley chisels: 750's in sizes 3/8 : 5/8 : 1 3/4 : 2 Osborne #149 arch punches in sizes 1 1/4 : 1 1/2 Thanks as always Tom ++++ End of thread 25163 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25164 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57760 (thread 25164) ---- From: ralph.brendler@a... (Ralph Brendler) Date: 1999-02-16 14:13:00 Subject: Re: Why the big mouth? Scott Post writes: >I stopped at a local antique emporium tonight that had several infill >planes (shoulder and smoother, bronze and steel, craftsman and factory made). >All but one had what I consider gaping mouths. I didn't see overt signs of >being attacked by some goober's file. So what's the scoop? I wouldn't >think wear would be an issue. Was it common for ignorant owners to open >up the mouths? With smoothers, a wide mouth on an infill is a sure sign of an iron replacement. Also, some of the craftsman-built infills I've seen used tapered irons, so the mouth opened up as the iron was used. Or, it coulda been some ham-fisted moron with a file... The shoulder planes are a different story. Were the wide mouthed ones arch-backed, or were they straight? If they were straight they were probably rabbet planes, where the wide mouth is normal (you wouldn't want to cut a rabbet of any appreciable size with a 10 thou mouth, would you?). ralph ---- Start of Message 57787 (thread 25164) ---- From: Carl W Muhlhausen Date: 1999-02-16 20:12:00 Subject: Re: Why the big mouth? "Scott E. Post" wrote: > > I stopped at a local antique emporium tonight that had several infill > planes (shoulder and smoother, bronze and steel, craftsman and factory made). > All but one had what I consider gaping mouths. I didn't see overt signs of > being attacked by some goober's file. So what's the scoop? I wouldn't > think wear would be an issue. Was it common for ignorant owners to open > up the mouths? > > -- > Scott Post spost@n... http://www.netusa1.net/~spost I'm no expert, but I've seen quite a few examples of post-wwII Norris smoothers with wide mouths and thin blades. They also had painted hardwood infills and looked pretty cheesy. I read or was told that in the last gasp, they were more or less trying to compete with Stanley. I wouldn't buy one of these and expect much. Carl ---- Start of Message 57788 (thread 25164) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-16 21:23:00 Subject: Re: Why the big mouth? >"Scott E. Post" wrote: >> >> I stopped at a local antique emporium tonight that had several infill >> planes (shoulder and smoother, bronze and steel, craftsman and factory >>made). >> All but one had what I consider gaping mouths. > Carl wrote; >I'm no expert, but I've seen quite a few examples of post-wwII Norris >smoothers with wide mouths and thin blades. They also had painted >hardwood infills and looked pretty cheesy. >I read or was told that in the last gasp, they were more or less trying >to compete with Stanley. I wouldn't buy one of these and expect much. Yes yes...... every one a POS..all of 'em...junk.... mouths so wide they make Rush Limbaugh look tight-lipped. Please send all post WWII Norris' to Kenworth Lane in Lakeville, MN where they will get a nice thick blade and a good home. I'll even pay shipping I'm so big-hearted. T ---- Start of Message 57790 (thread 25164) ---- From: "Alan N. Graham" Date: 1999-02-16 22:51:00 Subject: Re: Why the big mouth? Ralph Brendler notes: >The shoulder planes are a different story. Were the wide mouthed ones >arch-backed, or were they straight? If they were straight they were >probably rabbet planes, where the wide mouth is normal (you wouldn't want to >cut a rabbet of any appreciable size with a 10 thou mouth, would you?). This may answer one question but raise another. I have what I believed to be an infill shoulder plane, but I have been puzzled by its wide mouth. If Ralph is right and this is actually an infill rabbet plane, then I want to know why anyone would make an infill rabbet plane. It just doesn't seem that it makes sense to have an infill dedicated to making rabbets. I have always thought of infills as plane which permit the full support and fine mouths necessary to take fine shavings. What advantage am I overlooking that would make an infill rabbet (or jointer for that matter) better than an ordinary steel one? Alan N. Graham on the road in Ottawa ---- Start of Message 57824 (thread 25164) ---- From: RayTSmith@a... Date: 1999-02-17 14:03:00 Subject: Re: Why the big mouth? In a message dated 99-02-16 17:58:18 EST, agraham@w... writes: << What advantage am I overlooking that would make an infill rabbet (or jointer for that matter) better than an ordinary steel one? >> Weren't most infill rabbet planes made before Stanley came along with the #78 ? I've always thought they were for cabinetmakers who didn't find wooden skew rabbet planes satisfactory to working figured hardwoods, or didn't want to bother correcting warpage in the wooden planes? Ray T. Smith ---- Start of Message 57827 (thread 25164) ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1999-02-17 14:26:00 Subject: Re: Why the big mouth? As a discussion about infill's gets started. . . . The story so far... ..snip.. > >This may answer one question but raise another. I have what I believed to be > >an infill shoulder plane, but I have been puzzled by its wide mouth. If > >Ralph is right and this is actually an infill rabbet plane, then I want to > >know why anyone would make an infill rabbet plane. > > >It just doesn't seem that it makes sense to have an infill dedicated to > >making rabbets. I have always thought of infills as plane which permit the > >full support and fine mouths necessary to take fine shavings. What advantage > >am I overlooking that would make an infill rabbet (or jointer for that > >matter) better than an ordinary steel one? > > >Alan N. Graham > Wait a moment - there are a couple of issues in here. Lets dismiss the 'infill' part of the argument. As has been demonstrated time and again on the porch, taking three slabs of metal and doevetailing them into a plane is simplicity itself. Anyone can do it. The result is a U shaped steel trough that needs filling with wood - hence you get an 'infill' Most user made ones have been thrown away as worthless (IMHO) and its likely that many were, compared to the output of Mathieson et al. However, being able to make a steel plane, then it follows that you would make your own rebate, shoulder, smoother and maybe a panel plane. Doubtless, you would give a plane the mouth yo needed for the work you did, and whereas you can't take a .030 shaving through a .020 mouth, you can fine tune a wide mouth plane, with thick, well supported, rigid blade to give the very finest work. So, my theory is that the blade bed and thickness have far, far more to do with the quality of finish than the mouth width, and that most tools had to be more general purpose then than now. Wide mouths are OK. Richard Wilson one-time frequenter, and still lurking in the corner. ++++ End of thread 25164 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25165 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57761 (thread 25165) ---- From: Tim Fuss Date: 1999-02-16 14:19:00 Subject: Any Trip Advice? Hey folks, I just wanted to ask our Galoots to the north if there might be any good rust hunting spots around Ottawa, Ontario (or between Kingston and Ottawa). I'm headed up that way this weekend for some ice skating and general bumming around town. If we've got the scheduling right, it should be the concluding weekend of Winterlude. I might just be able to fit in a stop or two in the search for some, er.... acquisitions. Thanks for any help, ---- Start of Message 57793 (thread 25165) ---- From: "Louis-Philippe Boutet" Date: 1999-02-17 03:06:00 Subject: Re: Any Trip Advice? If you find any PLEASE LET ME KNOW TOO. Louis Boutet Ottawa -----Original Message----- From: Tim Fuss To: OLDTOOLS public response Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 6:16 AM Subject: Any Trip Advice? >Hey folks, > >I just wanted to ask our Galoots to the north if there might >be any good rust hunting spots around Ottawa, Ontario (or between >Kingston and Ottawa). > >I'm headed up that way this weekend for some ice skating and >general bumming around town. If we've got the scheduling right, >it should be the concluding weekend of Winterlude. > >I might just be able to fit in a stop or two in the search for >some, er.... acquisitions. > >Thanks for any help, > >-- >Tim Fuss (the Other Brother Galoot ) >Rochester, NY >Neat Old Stuff - old tools, classic cameras, vintage guitars... > >-- > > > > ---- Start of Message 57844 (thread 25165) ---- From: Paul Fuss Date: 1999-02-17 13:05:00 Subject: Re: Any Trip Advice? Brother Tim asks for advice on things to do in the Ottawa and Kingston area... I was going to reply privately but as there is at least one other interested party, might as well go public. As it turns out, the EAIA is planning their annual meeting in June there, and the itinerary was described in their most recent newsletter. Eric Coyle already mentioned a few of these places (MacLachlan Woodworking Museum in Kingston, Rideau Canal Museum in Smith Falls, and a visit with Leonard Lee at Lee Valley Tools). Other places of note are Upper Canada Village, The Canadian Museum of Civilization in Hull (which has a collection of woodworking tools) and the National Museum of Science and Technology in Ottawa; also the Algonquin College of Applied Arts and Technology in Perth (not far from Smith Falls) where traditional woodworking techniques using hand tools are taught. You can fit all that into a weekend, no problem! Becky will love it! Speaking of EAIA, it's worth the price of subscription just to read about their annual exploits in England (a trip I long to make someday but my proverbial ship needs to arrive first). Paul Fuss Boston MA ++++ End of thread 25165 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25166 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57762 (thread 25166) ---- From: David Tuttle Date: 1999-02-16 14:21:00 Subject: FWW 135 So I don't know if this is a real Galoot or not but that's my hands on page 34. I make changes to tools too much and I can't find the real neat ones so I do the Lie-Nelson thing. I had waited for 1 3/4 of a year for the 98 & 99. He's slow but they are nice tools!! I hope this is not off topic but most of my customers don't care as long as my work looks great, and I know some of you will appreciate this. Tutt-Tutt for Now David Tuttle: tuttle@e... Brantford, ON Canada Voice: (519) 754-1138 ++++ End of thread 25166 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25167 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57764 (thread 25167) ---- From: Aaron Ionta Date: 1999-02-16 14:52:00 Subject: Jarra ?sp wood - mini gloat Hello GG's Not much to gloat about lately, untill last night . As some of you know my wife is working with the American WoodWorking Staff on an article on how to make your own Stickley Hardware. So she was over at the 6th Street Guild ( I think I got that name correct ) working on that Yesterday, while a photo shoot was going on for an article about making an outdooor table out of Jarra?Jarrah?. So Jennifer is Oooohing and Ahhhhing over the pretty wood, and Tom Caspar ( the Author and woodworker) offers her some of the left over pieces! 1 piece is 6/4 by 5.75" x 7" and te other is 5/4 x 7" x 38". So all I can say is Kewl Man , she can work for them any day as long as the scraps persist! I think I see a spokeshave in Jarah Jarrah Jarra coming Aaron taak Thanks SWMBO or shoulf I say SWBHW Shw who Brings Home Wood ---- Start of Message 57816 (thread 25167) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-17 09:00:00 Subject: Re: Jarra ?sp wood - mini gloat -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Ionta To: old tools Date: Tuesday, 16 February 1999 23:14 Subject: Jarra ?sp wood - mini gloat > >I think I see a spokeshave in Jarah Jarrah Jarra coming PMFJI,Aaron. Being a user of Jarrah, I wouldn't recommend it for a spokeshave. Higher powers correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you need a close-grained woo d for that and Jarrah is anything but. It also can split easily and you'll find it absolute murder to finish the mouth off. Now for a small box, or an inlay or something of the sort, yes. Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ++++ End of thread 25167 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25168 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57766 (thread 25168) ---- From: "Gary P. Johns" Date: 1999-02-16 14:55:00 Subject: Attn: Wash. D.C., Area galoots! Hail to the Galoots!, I am going to be in DC 3/16-19. Any galoots want to get together and drag some knuckles? I do know how to use the Metro so I can extend my range a bit. I'll be staying at the Wardman Marriott by the zoo. Gary Johns OldTool Heaven "RustHunter" http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9147 ---- Start of Message 57811 (thread 25168) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 1999-02-17 05:26:00 Subject: Re: Attn: Wash. D.C., Area galoots! On Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:55:41 -0600 (CST), Gary P. Johns wrote: >I am going to be in DC 3/16-19. Any galoots want to get together and drag >some knuckles? I do know how to use the Metro so I can extend my range a >bit. I'll be staying at the Wardman Marriott by the zoo. Come down a few days early and go to the PATINA show and auction! Karl has posted some details, will post more! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA New Email address: avogadro@b... (also avogadro@w...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ++++ End of thread 25168 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25169 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57769 (thread 25169) ---- From: carlwshp Date: 1999-02-16 15:56:00 Subject: Chisel info. Morning Everyone, Anyone heard of a chisel maker D.Dickinson, on the chisel it also says cast steel, warnented. this is a 5/16" & 3/8" mortis chisel, anyone got any of these or heard of this maker. Thank You Carl Murphy Eastport, Maine ++++ End of thread 25169 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25170 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57770 (thread 25170) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-02-16 16:04:00 Subject: The book of trades I picked up the book of trades from lee valley a couple of weeks ago. This is a reprint of an 1866 publication which was intended to give a young boy information about the various trades so he could decide which would be his chosen profession. All through this book I keep finding intersting info. I just got to the cabinet makers section and found this. "It is supposed that there are about 50,000 workers in wood in London, and 350,000 in all England" Well doing some quick math I get 2.68 "workers in wood" per square kilometer if they are talking about just England. If they mean all of the UK then it's still 1.43 per square kilometer. Now if each worker had let say 100 tools ( I think that's pretty conservative) then we have 268 tools per square kilometer (or 143). You guys must just be wallowing in old tools ;^) Another tidbit "A good set of cabinet maker's tools is worth from 30 to 40 pounds" Dan ++++ End of thread 25170 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25171 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57771 (thread 25171) ---- From: Tim Rutherford Date: 1999-02-16 16:28:00 Subject: Hoosier Galoot-fest and cookout Hoosier planmekaer and Galoot-abe Tod Herrlie has trouble singing on, so here's apost he asked be passed along about his planned Galoot-fest and cookout: Hey I've set a date to have a galoot meet like Ron's, at my home and shop on June 5th, 1999. I'd like to have the event between 10am to 4pm. I'd like to have a cookout with hamburgers and hotdogs ect... and have guests bring a side dish or desert. I'm not sure if I'll have a "program" so to speak, but I'll have time to think and also accept suggestions. I do like the idea of show and tell for anyone who has something new or interesting to share. You can contact Tod at therrli@c... Being stuck in Georgia, I've asked tod to gloat for me about the cabinetmakers set he's crafting for me ;) Tim Rutherford Savannah, Georgia _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 25171 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25172 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57772 (thread 25172) ---- From: "DuPrie, James" Date: 1999-02-16 16:38:00 Subject: Scissors was: Barrister Bookcase design idea... Regarding the scissors mechanism: the reason that I haven't used it is because: 1: my attempts at making one that worked better than the dowel-in-a-dado failed completely... 2: the one place that I've found them for sale had them priced at something like $25 each - out of this cheap bastuhd's price range..... (besides, they were made of *plastic*) I did think about buying one and copying it in brass or something, but from the catalogue picture, it probably wouldn't be to practical.... If someone has an old trashed barristers bookcase, and would like to donate the scissors mechanism, I'd be more than happy to play the appropriate games and publish results and directions for making them.... --JD > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Arthur [mailto:rob@p...] > Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 10:31 AM > To: OLDTOOLS list > Subject: Re: Barrister Bookcase design idea... > > > Rockler's (http://www.rockler.com) sell's plans (not > necessarily needed) and > hardware for these bookcases. Do a search of their catalog on-line. > > At 09:25 PM 2/15/99 , Michael D. Sullivan wrote: > >On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:31:12 -0500, DuPrie, James wrote: > > > [snip of info request from James] > > > >James, one of the major WW magazines had an article on > making these a few > >years ago, including a source for the "scissors mechanism." > The bookcases > >are still being made; perhaps the manufacturer sells the > parts. One source > >for the new bookcases is Levenger (http://www.levenger.com). > They may be > >able to tell you where to get the mechanism. > > -- > > ++++ End of thread 25172 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25173 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57775 (thread 25173) ---- From: "Jim Weaver" Date: 1999-02-15 13:55:00 Subject: Making Maple Syrup I helped a buddy of mine make maple syrup over the weekend. He lives in a wooded area surrounded by sugar maples. He had been collection the sap for about two weeks and yesterday was the cookoff. This is really an enjoyable activity. You drill a hole in the maple trees with a hand brace & 7/16 bit. Then you insert the spigot with an attached plastic bag. The bag holds about 3 gallons. Weather helps when it's cold at night and warm during the day. He taps 40 trees and gets upwards of 250 gallons of sap from them over a several day collection period. He cooks the sap in a rectangular pan over an open fire. You boil it down without adding any ingredients. It takes 40 gallons of sap to make one gallon of syrup. After the sap boils down to the point that it's just about ready, he transfers it to a small pot on the kitchen stove so he can better control the heat. Actually, for the syrup to be just right, you only have about a 5 minute time frame to quit boiling it. When it gets just about ready, you test it with a hygrometer to find out when to stop. Then you strain out the ashes and bugs and it's ready to use. Oh, this doesn't taste much like the maple syrup you buy in the store, it's much tastier and sweeter. Next year, I am planning to do a cook off at my garden site at the Little Sisters Retirement home on West 86th Street in Indianapolis. The old folks can come out and give advice on how we should be doing it. I am planning this for a weekend in February of 2000. If anyone wants to join me for this, please let me know. ++++ End of thread 25173 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25174 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57779 (thread 25174) ---- From: Conan The Librarian Date: 1999-02-16 18:17:00 Subject: I get the feeling I may be in over my head Greetings Generous Galoots, In the process of building a southwestern-style highboy, I have run into a construction question. The carcase will be made from mortised frame and panel construction for the sides, and the front will consist of drawer rails mortised into the sides. All the m&t joints will be handcut, and the only non-Galoot tool used is a 'l*ctr*c*l r**t*h which I used to cut the grooves for the panels to fit in. The panels will be raised with my #78 and #90 and #5 or #6 for cutting the bevel. Aside from the obvious questions like "How the heck do I cut 32 m&t joints without introducing a significant amount of error somewhere in the process?", I have a question relating to attaching the drawer runners to the drawer rails. I could do more m&t's, but I got to thinking that for a change of pace, I might want to attach them with single half-lap dovetail joints. (I hope the terminology is correct; I want to cut a tail on the runner that will fit into a corresponding mortise on the rail. Since I want the runners and rails to be flush top and bottom, I would need to do them in the manner of a lap joint, but have the tail be half (more or less?) the length of the width of the rail.) OK, I imagine that explanation is hard to follow, so I'm going to try something I don't normally do: Bad ASCII art alert! Top view: ____________ | | ______ drawer | / rail |____ /____ | | | | drawer runner My questions relate to the length of the tail (1/2 the width of the rail, or is it determined by the slope of the tail?), width of the tail (full width of the runner member), the thickness of the lap (again 1/2 the thickness of each piece?). Also, is this an approved method for attaching the runners? FWIW, the stock is 7/4" x 7/4" pine. Thanks, Chuck Vance Woodworking projects at: http://www.swt.edu/~cv01/woodworking.html ---- Start of Message 57780 (thread 25174) ---- From: ralph.brendler@a... (Ralph Brendler) Date: 1999-02-16 18:50:00 Subject: Re: I get the feeling I may be in over my head Chuck Vance asks: [snip-- how to connecting a drawer runner to the front rail?] > I could do more m&t's, but I got to thinking that for a change of >pace, I might want to attach them with single half-lap dovetail >joints. (I hope the terminology is correct; I want to cut a tail on >the runner that will fit into a corresponding mortise on the rail. >Since I want the runners and rails to be flush top and bottom, I would >need to do them in the manner of a lap joint, but have the tail be >half (more or less?) the length of the width of the rail.) That is actually a common joint for this application (and yes, your terminology is correct). ;-) I've used this sort of joint several times. These are fun joints to cut, and really label the piece as hand-crafted. > My questions relate to the length of the tail (1/2 the width of the >rail, or is it determined by the slope of the tail?), width of the >tail (full width of the runner member), the thickness of the lap >(again 1/2 the thickness of each piece?). Also, is this an approved >method for attaching the runners? Labelling your diagram so it's easier to talk about specific dimensions, we get the new bad ASCII art... ____________________ _ ______A______ _ | / | C / B | _____ /___|__ | | | | | |---- D ----| As far as sizes go, I'd say making "B" half the width of "C" is disproportionately narrow-- I'd go with a DT at least 2/3 as wide, maybe even 3/4. Be careful when removing the mortise waste, though-- it's easy to chisel through the back of the mortise (DAMHINT). Work with a backing piece and you should be OK. Your other dimensions look fine. I would go with a full-width tail (i.e. "A" == "D"), and half the thickness. You may also want to leave the runner a tiny bit proud of the rail (i.e. cut your mortise slightly shallow) to provide bottom clearance for the drawer. Have fun! ralph ---- Start of Message 57786 (thread 25174) ---- From: "Yarrow, Gary SH" Date: 1999-02-16 20:53:00 Subject: RE: I get the feeling I may be in over my head I've used it. Its in the old English books. I'd use it again. On the ones that I've used, I've used the whole width of the rail and also about 3/4. Since its lapped and you will be gluing it, it will hold fine. Gary ---------- I could do more m&t's, but I got to thinking that for a change of pace, I might want to attach them with single half-lap dovetail joints. (I hope the terminology is correct; I want to cut a tail on the runner that will fit into a corresponding mortise on the rail. Since I want the runners and rails to be flush top and bottom, I would need to do them in the manner of a lap joint, but have the tail be half (more or less?) the length of the width of the rail.) OK, I imagine that explanation is hard to follow, so I'm going to try something I don't normally do: Bad ASCII art alert! Top view: ____________ | | ______ drawer | / rail |____ /____ | | | | drawer runner My questions relate to the length of the tail (1/2 the width of the rail, or is it determined by the slope of the tail?), width of the tail (full width of the runner member), the thickness of the lap (again 1/2 the thickness of each piece?). Also, is this an approved method for attaching the runners? ++++ End of thread 25174 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25175 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57781 (thread 25175) ---- From: Jim Cook Date: 1999-02-16 18:50:00 Subject: RE: bent iron on #7 and thanks! Gene, You shouldn't have any trouble straightening the cutter, as long as the bend isn't at the cutting end. Any part of the cutter along the slot or above should be soft enough to bend back into shape without a problem. Jim Cook Newton, MA ---------- >From: Gene & Lucy Toye >I received a #7 today that I picked up on Ebay. Looks like it will be an >good user. Its a type 12 with the original iron. However, upon >examination, I find the iron is not flat but in sort of a zig-zag shape. >With a straightedge along the back, there looks to be a max 1/8 inch >variation. Looks like the edge would clean up and sharpen just fine. Can I >do something about the iron, does it not matter, or should I put the iron >away and get a replacement? If a replacement, a Hock or can somebody help >me with another type 12 iron with the 1920 logo? ++++ End of thread 25175 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25176 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57782 (thread 25176) ---- From: chasnune@i... Date: 1999-02-16 19:10:00 Subject: RE: Stanley-Marsh #400 mitre vise Tom Holloway wrote... >The second is painted blue and has only Stanley, no > Marsh, in the > casting, > For what it's worth, MJD has a Stanley #400 in his catalog from last year with yellow japaning where the #400 is for well over one hundred dollars. Sounds like a good deal. Mine's cleaner than MJD and cost $5.00. Drive by. Great with pitcher frames. Charlie Nunemaker (Gil someday I'll get an Emmert for $5.00 dag-nab-it) ++++ End of thread 25176 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25177 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57783 (thread 25177) ---- From: "Brent D. Beach" Date: 1999-02-16 19:35:00 Subject: Disston #12 variations I have a variation on a Disston #12 that I can't date. The identification is based on the handle and blade shape, but not the etching, which is gone. The handle is an exact match for the normal #12 handle, but is a dark wood (these are usually apple). The medallion is H Disston & Sons, Philada. The blade matches the standard #12 blade, straight back, nib, but the heel extends farther. On a standard #12, the blade ends in front of the scalloped pieces that form the bottom of the hand hole. On this saw, the metal comes to the end of the first scallop. A quick check of Ralph's and Tom's sites did not reveal this blade/handle configuration. The blade has the correct shape, but is not as wide as a standard #12 blade. The blade shape at the heel (curves round to the first tooth) seems to indicate a saw that has not been sharpened many times, but the total width at the heel (back of handle to teeth edge) is only 6-3/4". The saw blade is 28". My other No 12 is 7-1/2" wide at the heel and about the same 3/4" wider the full length of the blade. Handle shape, including blade extension in the handle may be enough to identify most Disston saws. Just honing my Disston ID skills before heading out bottom feeding in bins of rusty saws. Brent Brent Beach, Victoria, BC, CA ++++ End of thread 25177 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25178 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57785 (thread 25178) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-02-16 20:31:00 Subject: PATINA ALERT - OK another! Galoots, Eureka!!! For the PATINA Spring Extravaganza, Robert Arthur was kind enough to take my MS Word document 2 column formatted listing and turn it into a PDF file. It is now out on the Web, reachable by going through URL: < http://www.mindspring.com/~sangerkw/Patina99-1.html > Just follow the links to the old listing and click on the new "View and Print in 2 column" link. Your Web browser should at least have an Adobe Acrobat 3 Read-Only add-in that will come up and handle the formatting and display. Simply use you browser to print the listing. So, give me some opinions as to whether Galoots like the listing in printable PDF or in the single column format. I can select and copy the single column HTML into my word processor, but not the PDF. Karl - now if I could only get the number of viewers counter to work! I HATE computers. ++++ End of thread 25178 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25179 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57789 (thread 25179) ---- From: "Darrin Abend" Date: 1999-02-16 21:58:00 Subject: Bio Repost: Darrin Abend I posted this once 9 months ago or so, but it never made it to the Bio page. So, here goes again. My name is Darrin Abend (Yes, that's my real last name). I am 33 years old and have lived in the Kansas City, Missouri area all of my life. I can thank my father for my appreciation for tools and woodworking, and hope to do the same for my two children. I work at the University of Kansas Medical Center as a clinical systems analyst. I have also worked as a draftsman and CNC programmer. The CNC programming job and working with machinist helped my woodworking skills immensely. Now, it doesn't matter what the wood part is for, if its more that .010" off of the nominal dimension or out of square it drives me crazy. I have a wife (Debbie) and two children Alex and Allyson. I have three brothers Darrell, David and Doug (see a pattern yet?). I also have a sister (Linda) who somehow escaped the naming convention. For whatever reason I'm the only woodworker of the bunch although Darrell is an incredible artist. I have have been interested in woodworking and woodcarving for as long as I can remember. I have always liked old tools and have several from my Grandfather. Finding the Porch has seriously escalated my love (need, desire???) for tools old and new. I'm not a collector, but I definately like having a lot of users. I enjoy making furniture and am currently building a chest of drawers. I also enjoy carving a great deal (I wish I had more artistic talent though). My most recent Gallot acomplishment was making a thimble rack for my mother (actually got to make some dados with #71) and making some walnut boxes for some sharpening stones. I enjoy being a member of the Oldtools list and wish everyone good health and happiness. Darrin. ++++ End of thread 25179 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25180 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57792 (thread 25180) ---- From: "Al Brockman" Date: 1999-02-16 23:54:00 Subject: In search of help (or truth or something) Hi - I'm rather (very) new to this and have only recently begun to understand the wonders of hand tools. I still use the dreaded electrical devices but I hope I'm learning. I just inherited (well, sort of) a number of wooden planes. Some of them are marked (some clearer than others) with what appears to be makers marks. The names I can make out are as follows: EF Seybold Union Factory Chapin Stephens Malloch & Son Perth J & R Denison Ohio Tool Co. Auburn Tool The planes are in various shapes and sizes and I want (need) to find out more about what they are and how they are effectively used. Any help or information would be appreciated. I will learn more about hand tools butI guess I'd like to know more about what I have acquired. Al brockman ---- Start of Message 57795 (thread 25180) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 1999-02-16 23:22:00 Subject: Re: In search of help (or truth or something) On 16 Feb 99 at 18:54, Al Brockman wrote: > I just inherited (well, sort of) a number > of wooden planes. Some of them are marked (some clearer than others) with > what appears to be makers marks. The names I can make out are as follows: > EF Seybold > Union Factory Chapin Stephens > Malloch & Son Perth > J & R Denison > Ohio Tool Co. > Auburn Tool > > The planes are in various shapes and sizes and I want (need) to find out > more about what they are and how they are effectively used. Well, you are a lucky galoot. You potentially have a number of nice planes there, depending on condition - there are many respected manufacturers on your list. If you want to get a good understanding of wooden plane shapes and uses, an excellent starting point would be Mike Dunbar's book, "Restoring, Tuning, and Using Classic Woodworking Tools." It belongs on every galoot's reference shelf, and this is one area where it is a fine learning tool. -Ken, who refers to it often Ken Greenberg IT #321; Blue Galoot #82 400 Los Gatos Blvd., Los Gatos, CA 95032 http://www.calast.com/ken/Personal/wood.htm ---- Start of Message 57817 (thread 25180) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-17 09:13:00 Subject: Re: In search of help (or truth or something) -----Original Message----- From: Al Brockman To: OLDTOOLS@l... Date: Wednesday, 17 February 1999 08:15 Subject: In search of help (or truth or something) >Malloch & Son Perth It looks like you don't live in Australia. Or else you'd have a crazy galoot knocking your door down to get hold of this... (catchmadrift?) ;- ) Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ++++ End of thread 25180 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25181 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57797 (thread 25181) ---- From: TURFF49@a... Date: 1999-02-17 00:27:00 Subject: Help with a #2c I need a diagram or picture of the parts for a Stanley # 2c. I found one in my Grandfathers old tools I inherited, but some of the parts are off, ie blade,and cap. There are several of these items in the tool box but I'm not sure which one goes with this plane. On the lever it has a patent of 7 24 88 . It also has a B right behind the frog ( I think thats what it is called). The tote (handle) is also broken and I will need to find one of these. This # 2 doesn't say bailey on it but does have no. 2 on it and it is corrugated. Can someone sort through what I've just said and help me out. I've acquired several old tools and remember my father and grandfather building with them. I've not built to much in my 35 years but am what I consider a master finisher and even operated my own restoration business for a while.I guess I'm getting into a bio now so I'll stop and save the rest for that. All help will be appreciated and if anyone hase a handle to sell let me know. Thanks, Brian ---- Start of Message 57846 (thread 25181) ---- From: James Foster Date: 1999-02-17 17:33:00 Subject: Re: Help with a #2c Brian, TURFF49@a... wrote: > > I need a diagram or picture of the parts for a Stanley # 2c. I found one in m y > Grandfathers old tools I inherited, but some of the parts are off, ie > blade,and cap. There are several of these items in the tool box but I'm not > sure which one goes with this plane. It goes together like any other stanley plane. A book like Dunbar's will have diagrams showing the various parts and how they fit together. There's probably one out on the net somewhere. One good thing here is that if you find anything that fits at all it probably belongs to this plane: The #2's used a 1 5/8" wide iron and the #3 used 1 3/4" wide. If you find a blade 1 1/4" wide search high and low for the #1 that goes along with it!! B^) On the lever it has a patent of 7 24 88 . > It also has a B right behind the frog ( I think thats what it is called). The > tote (handle) is also broken and I will need to find one of these. Broken with the pieces missing, or just cracked? Cracked ones can be carefully reglued. Missing just the tip of the tote is pretty common and can be patched. If you're missing a piece then you will indeed need a replacement. This # 2 > doesn't say bailey on it but does have no. 2 on it and it is corrugated. Can > someone sort through what I've just said and help me out. Sure. I just bought a nice #2 with a perfect tote, and out of the goodness of my heart would be willing to swap my plane for yours. I can probably fix up that broken tote okay. EMail me if you'd like to do this. B^) You don't wanna do this, of course. If it's a real 2C and you end up with all the parts to it then you've got yourself a plane worth a couple of bucks. How many I don't know (I'm one of the few who still have Walter's price guide on my "Gotta get one of those someday" list), but Patrick Leach had mentioned that he's seen more #1's than 2C's. Me, I've never seen a #1 though the Medina sale did have a 2C, but it was brazed back together badly enough that I don't think it sold. B^) B^) Congratulations! Especially on it being a family tool. My grandfather's #3 is still one of my most treasured planes. ++++ End of thread 25181 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25182 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57798 (thread 25182) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-17 00:54:00 Subject: Safety first???? This is really embarassing, so I'm hoping the Proch will be kind here.... Here's the deal..... I seem to be on a self-destructive bent in the shop....and I'm almost never in there lately! Incident one.... I fire up the Prestolite torch to get a chisel off of a handle that is epoxied on...... I'm standing there carefully waving the torch over the socket when I realize that there's a 11 X 14 inch cake pan full of stripper on the bench just inches away...OHMYGOD!!!!! Whew! Dodged a bullet there. Incident two... I fire up the torch again a couple of days later to help[ a frozen nut off of a t-auger..... I get the nut off.... hop in the Honda and rush off to a meeting. I come home 2 1/2 hours later, and there's the torch hanging over the edge of the bench buring away......AAAAAAAAACCCCCKKKKK DON'T STOP HEART!!! Whew. I sit down on the steps and let the thumper wind down and think about coming home to a smoking hole in the ground. Incident three.... I'm tidying up and there's this covered jar sitting on the bench. What's that? Now, I love the smell of lacquer and even alcohol is OK, but I'm not remembering which one is in the jar..... so I pop the cap off and stick my schnoz in there and draw down ...MURIATIC ACID>>>>> cough cough ..... BREATH..... can't .... get a breath..... aaaarrrgghhh That one was rough. Why am I telling ya'll my shameful sloppy safety (lack of) practices? Cuz I bet I'm not the only one who gets a little lax and rushed and careless..... Now where were those safety goggles.... Tom ---- Start of Message 57802 (thread 25182) ---- From: "Stephan Patnaude" Date: 1999-02-17 02:38:00 Subject: Re: Safety first???? >This is really embarassing, so I'm hoping the Proch will be kind here.... >Here's the deal..... I seem to be on a self-destructive bent in the >shop....and I'm almost never in there lately! Ah, there's the problem. Must make peace with the gnomes dwelling there. >Incident one.... I fire up the Prestolite torch to get a chisel off of a >Incident two... I fire up the torch again a couple of days later to help[ a Hmmm....I sense a pattern here. Perhaps a little note you can't miss on the way out of the shop. I have mine.......... >Incident three.... I'm tidying up and there's this covered jar sitting on This is the scariest of all. *Don't Breath In Solvents!* To quote my AnChem advisor, the dear departed Dr. R. Ken Force, "Stephan, later on you may just find a need for that part of your liver you're dissolving......" Also, good idea to stick a label on any jars containing clear liquids that can ignite, explode, or dissolve your face off. I pretty much remember what's in mine but (learning this the hard way really sucks big time BTW) visitors may not. - Stephan, who really has no business chastizing anyone since he is typing this with a big glob of Aloe on his finger (from a "gee that must be hot" brain spasm) and also soaking a foot injured via a "the box is labeled ringtons but there's really a 120 lb steel vacuum pump in it" kick it out of the way episode. Sigh..... ---- Start of Message 57815 (thread 25182) ---- From: Wes Groot Date: 1999-02-17 06:23:00 Subject: Re: Safety first???? Tom, I think you need another hobby! How's about you pack up all your tool-stuff in as many large, heavy boxes as it takes, and send them to me. I'll send you a crispy pair of twenty dollar bills to help you get moving in another direction! Wes, who's just doing this for your own good. Tom Johnson wrote: > > This is really embarassing, so I'm hoping the Proch will be kind here.... >snip ---- Start of Message 57818 (thread 25182) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-17 09:23:00 Subject: Re: Safety first???? -----Original Message----- From: Tom Johnson To: oldtools@l... Date: Wednesday, 17 February 1999 09:12 Subject: Safety first???? >This is really embarassing, so I'm hoping the Proch will be kind here.... >Here's the deal..... I seem to be on a self-destructive bent in the >shop....and I'm almost never in there lately! Get a garden gnome and stick it inside the shop. Works for me, I can't find an y virgins... >smoking hole in the ground. Hint: you're a galoot woodworker. What the heck is a torch doing there? >cap off and stick my schnoz in there and draw down ...MURIATIC ACID>>>>> Here is something I learned from my wife in her chemistry days: never stick ANYTHING into a bottle you don't know the contents of. Instead, open it, put i t at chin level, about 4 inches from your proboscis, and flip a couple of fingers back and forth on top of it (the bottle, not the proboscis!), about schnoz level. This will tell you what's in there by smell without the consequent soun d effects. Of course, if you find it's some left over brew of a kind you particularly like, nothing stopping you from a little swig. Purely for medicinal purposes, of course. >Why am I telling ya'll my shameful sloppy safety (lack of) practices? Cuz >I bet I'm not the only one who gets a little lax and rushed and >careless..... Now where were those safety goggles.... You certainly ain't... Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ---- Start of Message 57845 (thread 25182) ---- From: "HALL, HAYWARD" Date: 1999-02-17 17:18:00 Subject: RE: Safety first???? Thanks for reminding us all to be a little safer, Tom. Which of course, reminds me of a story... :) I was grinding away on some hunk of freshly forged metal and had the brilliant revelation: "Hey, I should put some safety goggles on". I reach for them with my free hand and slip them over my head, with the natural reaction kicking in to adjust with the other [metal holding] hand. Somehow, I managed to swing the *very* hot metal into contact with my neck, resulting in a rather nasty burn/blister on a very sensitive area. Boy, did *I* feel stupid explaining that one when SWmBO came over... (m=might. Not officially a Must yet. Dont rush me :) ) Hayward Hall Springfield MO (who can now empathize with cows) > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Johnson [SMTP:thj@u...] > Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 6:54 PM > To: oldtools@l... > Subject: Safety first???? > > This is really embarassing, so I'm hoping the Proch will be kind here.... > Here's the deal..... I seem to be on a self-destructive bent in the > shop....and I'm almost never in there lately! > ---- Start of Message 57888 (thread 25182) ---- From: Dave and Connie Date: 1999-02-18 01:44:00 Subject: RE: Safety first???? An obviously clueless "HALL, HAYWARD" wrote: >*I* feel stupid explaining that one when SWmBO came over... >(m=might. Not officially a Must yet. Dont rush me :) ) Could someone set Hayward straight? He just thinks that it is might :-). Esther met my SWMBO! Dave Who works with a Yuppie B*st*rd that just popped for 8/10 carat for his SWMBO to be. I would have given him a lump of coal (diamond seed) for free. ---- Start of Message 57900 (thread 25182) ---- From: snoe749@i... Date: 1999-02-18 02:03:00 Subject: Re: Safety first???? Esther, I think this young man needs to learn how to use a drop spindle. Dianne Noe, MsSheep@i... SWMBO of Steve Noe, in Indianapolis ++++ End of thread 25182 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25183 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57799 (thread 25183) ---- From: "Ron Harper" Date: 1999-02-17 00:58:00 Subject: Patina on cherry and tiny injury report Most honorable Galoots A trivial query perhaps, but I want to know how deep is the color that cherry acquires with age. How far into the wood does this penetrate? Out in the shop making the end tables from the current Woodsmith Substituting galootish methods whenever skilland sanity permits, which is getting more and more often these days. Did major damage to a digit last week. But it is still attached and healing nicely. SWMBO was alarmed when I walked in and calmly said " get your purse, we need to get to the ER quickly." I had fixed the last one myself with pressure and super glue ( honest ) But I cut this one pretty bad. I do not need to tell you old hands that there is never an excuse, but... there were extenuating circumstances. Oh well I have confessed ... sort of . Go ahead O'deen let me have your best shot Ron FOYBIPO, Supporter of theTools for Humanity Project and collector of small oil cans ---- Start of Message 57886 (thread 25183) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-02-18 00:33:00 Subject: Re: Patina on cherry and tiny injury report On Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:58:09 -0500 "Ron Harper" writes: >Most honorable Galoots > >A trivial query perhaps, but I want to know how deep is the color that >cherry acquires with age. How far into the wood does this penetrate? > I've been told that there is considerable regional variation in regard to your fist question. Pennsylvania black cherry (and I would guess black cherry from points west and south of PA darkens fastest, that from northern New England the slowest. In all cases it is likely that the darkening is quite thin. It can be accelerated by direct exposure to sunlight, though some have reported that sunlight will eventually begin to bleach out the color, or by washing with a lye solution, one to three Tbs of lye to a quart of water, mix in a plastic container (never use glass or aluminum) and take all of the safety precautions we frequently discuss here IRT working with lye. The process is extremely fast, it can be controlled by varying the strength of the solution. It will darken both the sapwood and the heartwood but differently so it doesn't fully blend them. Once the piece is dry any residual lye on the surface will decompose (oxidize I believe) in a few days or you can wash the surface with white vinegar to neutralize it sooner. I've tested this process on both solid wood and on cherry veneer plywood and would not hesitate to use it on a piece of furniture if I were impatient. ---- Start of Message 57901 (thread 25183) ---- From: snoe749@i... Date: 1999-02-18 02:09:00 Subject: Re: Patina on cherry and tiny injury report In between stitches, Ron harper writes: > Most honorable Galoots > > A trivial query perhaps, but I want to know how deep is the color that > cherry acquires with age. How far into the wood does this penetrate? > I've got a cherry hutch - from MIL - needing refinishing. The patina goes down less than 4mm under the varnish (?) Steve Noe, in Indianpolis snoe749@i... ---- Start of Message 58280 (thread 25183) ---- From: "Jim Weaver" Date: 1999-02-23 17:56:00 Subject: Re: Patina on cherry and tiny injury report I saved a log segment from a Cherry tree that was about 125 years old. I split it in about 8 quadrants so each is a rather large size. The tree was dead for several years before I got to it. The heart wood is a uniform deep brown/orange all the way through. It seems to get only a little darker when I make things from it. It is definitely much darker than any cherry I get that has been recently sawed. The sapwood is much lighter. I haven't used the sapwood for anything but it doesn't appear to have darkened much in the pieces holding down my lathe bed. Jim Weaver in Indianapolis From: "Ron Harper" To: Subject: Patina on cherry and tiny injury report Date sent: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:58:09 -0500 Most honorable Galoots A trivial query perhaps, but I want to know how deep is the color that cherry acquires with age. How far into the wood does this penetrate? Out in the shop making the end tables from the current Woodsmith Substituting galootish methods whenever skilland sanity permits, which is getting more and more often these days. Did major damage to a digit last week. But it is still attached and healing nicely. SWMBO was alarmed when I walked in and calmly said " get your purse, we need to get to the ER quickly." I had fixed the last one myself with pressure and super glue ( honest ) But I cut this one pretty bad. I do not need to tell you old hands that there is never an excuse, but... there were extenuating circumstances. Oh well I have confessed ... sort of . Go ahead O'deen let me have your best shot Ron FOYBIPO, Supporter of theTools for Humanity Project and collector of small oil cans ++++ End of thread 25183 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25184 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57800 (thread 25184) ---- From: Datoolfool@a... Date: 1999-02-17 01:42:00 Subject: Safety first Good post on safety. I find that most injuries do not come from not knowing what to do, but from being too casual and rushed about things we do quite often and get lax or lazy. A few years ago I had a source for kiln dried red oak. I supplied many of the rec woodworkers I knew with S2S wide red oak by using a tailed apprentice. It was a way to get pocket money for tool collecting without raising the rath of SWMBO. One day after changing the blades again (big order), I gave the last gib bolt one last snug with the wrench. It slipped and my hand went sliding across the razor sharp new blade. The good news was only 3/16" of blade protruded above the cutter head which limited the depth of cut and it was so sharp, the cut was VERY clean. Anyway, the point is I always wore gloves and I always laid leather over the blade while tightening the gibs, EXCEPT for this time. The two minutes I saved by skipping that were very costly. No permenant damage, but very embarassing. BTW, my then 5 year old was watching. SWMBO asked "what did Daddy say?" Tricia said, " he didn't say anything, he just grabbed his fingers and jumped around in a circle for a long, long time. And BTW, the injury survey for those t*bl* s*ws has found almost no injuries when a splitter and guard were used. Be safe, and take a last look around before leaving the shop. ++++ End of thread 25184 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25185 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57803 (thread 25185) ---- From: Jimmy Reina Date: 1999-02-17 14:44:00 Subject: Tuning Bench Planes ++++ End of thread 25185 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25186 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57804 (thread 25186) ---- From: "Birdwalk Farms" Date: 1999-02-17 02:50:00 Subject: Re: Anvil questions > anvil - ), with a small square hole square hole is a hardie, holds various tools and a smaller >round hole ( pritchell place metal to be punched over it so you don't ding up your punch and gives blank someplace to go ++++ End of thread 25186 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25187 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57805 (thread 25187) ---- From: "Dave Harris" Date: 1999-02-17 03:09:00 Subject: FS:Stanley Planes GG's, I finally have to admit that I must sell a couple of planes as I have duplicates of my duplicates now ! Oldtools terms if you have a bio posted or I know you (I ship and if you like it, send the money + the postage (USPS Priority)). 1) Bailey #3 - Type 15 or later. Kidney shaped hole on lever cap with rectangular, orange background logo. Black coated handle and tote. Japanning is 90-95%. Few scratches on bottom but nothing major. An excellent user - $55.00 2)Bailey #5 1/2 - Type 15 or later. 90-95% japanning with obligatory paint splashes, blade has even coating of rust but will clean up OK. Nickel plated lever cap has quite a few light rust spots but should clean up very well. Usual dings on handle and tote. Will make excellent user - $85.00 3)Bedrock #607 - Type 4A. Looks like an old re-paint job. The previous owner had taken what looks like a wire brush in a drill to clean it up - nice swirlies all over exposed metal surfaces(these could probably be lapped out). Some pitting on RHS. Knob and tote need re-finishing - tote has small chunk (1/2" x 1/2" x 1/8") missing on thumb side. Chance to get a user bedrock that works fine but looks tatty - $75.00 4)Stanley #12-250D. 18 blade combination plane NIB W.Alden sells these for $160.00 - you can have this for $100.00 Cheers, Dave Harris ++++ End of thread 25187 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25188 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57806 (thread 25188) ---- From: Datoolfool@a... Date: 1999-02-17 03:10:00 Subject: De-gresing with Lye Forgive me for not having read closely all the ones in this string. But to reinforce the last post, NaOH (sodium hydroxide, caustic, and other aka's) IS something to use with GREAT CAUTION. I am adding to the previous post a particular warning about your eyes. Wet NaOH on the skin will cause chemical burns. Wet or dry NaOH in the eyes will cause much worse burns. So, you would be advised to know how you are going to keep the stuff out of you eyes and what you would do if it got in your eyes. Chemical splash goggles (not woodworking safety goggles) are highly recommended. Having a water hose nearby that you can get to totally blinded is also highly recommended. ( I don't assume many (any?) of us have safety eyewash fountains.) Splash goggles can be obtained from many places. I have worked with dry NaOH and respect it highly DAMHIKT. It is quite useful, but is quite dangerous. (I used to carry 3,000 lbs (one 50 lb bag one my shoulders at a time) up three flights of stairs and dump it in a reactor.) The dust from the dry stuff is most dangerous. ---- Start of Message 57809 (thread 25188) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-17 04:50:00 Subject: Re: De-gresing with Lye >Forgive me for not having read closely all the ones >in this string. But to reinforce the last post, NaOH >(sodium hydroxide, caustic, and other aka's) IS >something to use with GREAT CAUTION. What about me? Doncha think I'd be safe around this stuff? Got a question though. My Mum made soap with this stuff all through my growing up years..... I have a can on the shelf for zapping tools. Why is it that this stuff ALWAYS starts oozing up out of the can after a year or two...it GROWS LIKE ...LIKE.... THE BLOB! (OK, most of you were too young to remember that one) But why does it DO that? Tom (clumsy, careless, but inquiring) ---- Start of Message 57820 (thread 25188) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-17 09:33:00 Subject: Re: De-gresing with Lye -----Original Message----- From: Tom Johnson Date: Wednesday, 17 February 1999 13:09 Subject: Re: De-gresing with Lye >Got a question though. My Mum made soap with this stuff all through my >growing up years..... Your mum?!!!! - I - made soap out of this stuff in my tender school years! Are you callin g me as old as your mum? > I have a can on the shelf for zapping tools. Why is >it that this stuff ALWAYS starts oozing up out of the can after a year or >two...it GROWS LIKE ...LIKE.... THE BLOB! (OK, most of you were too young >to remember that one) But why does it DO that? Of course I remember THE BLOB! What do you think I call goop shellac? ;-) >From what I remember, lye likes water a lot. I think there is a scientific term for that: something like "hygros-whatever" or "hydros-whatever". If you add water to it in dribs and drabs, it grows just like you said. WARNING: NEVER,NEVER add water to lye, always the opposite: guaranteed splash in the face if you try! Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ---- Start of Message 57834 (thread 25188) ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1999-02-17 15:12:00 Subject: Re: De-gresing with Lye Nuno Souto wrote: > >From what I remember, lye likes water a lot. I think there is a scientific term > for that: something like "hygros-whatever" or "hydros-whatever". Hygroscopic. Ed ++++ End of thread 25188 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25189 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57807 (thread 25189) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-02-17 04:05:00 Subject: Re: Refininshing tools Of his encounter with paint-houses-not-tools Roeder, Bruce wrote: >I really enjoy taking a forlorn tool and >getting to the point where most any galoot would be >happy to use it (if not add to their collection). My feelings ezackly. It's become one aspect of the hobby, and if one of the psychological functions of a hobby is to get some satisfaction that is way different from monetary gain for time spent, then rehabbing tools is a good thing, for me. Others' Mileage May Vary. Someone used to have a sig line about tools not liking to be anthropomorphized (um..made into sentient creatures). Well, I understand that the tools I fix up don't like to be compared to humans, but I also know that they appreciate being rescued and refurbished into usable condition. And when I think of the number of planes and other tools that I have acquired for $5-15 and are now "worth" 50-100 bucks apiece (per current FS postings), then I haven't done so badly in the cash expended and value gained department, either. But I don't pay myself wages for wood dorking, so why should I calculate an hourly rate for rust busting, right? Tom Holloway ++++ End of thread 25189 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25190 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57808 (thread 25190) ---- From: Phil and Debbie Koontz Date: 1999-02-17 04:08:00 Subject: Almost too much fun GGs- This one is especially for the metalheads. My particular sidetrack on the slippery slope has been making my own edge tools, and I finished up my first corner chisel tonight. (Well, that killed the suspense, didn't it?) Anyway, here's the painful blow-by-blow story. The first step was to learn to make sockets for the handles, and I have finally more or less got that down. Upset the end if necessary in the coal forge, then spread it to about 3 inches wide; a little more if possible. Then roll it into a cone so the edges butt, and weld the seam with a gas torch (sorry about the modern touch here, but maybe I will get off the crutches someday), filling the gaps with welding rod wherever necessary. Then back to the forge to shape the socket around a punch. It happens I have an old punch just the right shape for about a 1" opening. OK, for the corner chisel I started with a piece of Geoprobe (TM) rod; it's basically a broken tool from work. The Geoprobe is a hydraulic tool that pushes and hammers sampling tools into the ground for doing hazardous waste investigations. But I digress. The rod is 1/2" inside, 1" outside diameter, and purportedly made of tool steel. I will come back to the steel later, but for now, I used a piece of it about 12" long and cut lengthwise with a hacksaw-- a semi-circular cross section a foot long and a quarter inch thick. Shaping the rod to a square cross section was done with a shop-made spring swedge, which is like a two piece mold that I hammered on to shape the (hot) semicircle into a right angle. The swedge has has an angle on the outside, and a square bar on the inside. So that was done a couple of weeks ago, and the almost finished tool has been lying around since then. Tonight I trimmed up both ends, did the rough sharpening and finishing with files and SS paper, then heat treated it. Here is where the excitement came in. This steel is something I have used several times, and it seems to be only mildly hardenable; 1045 steel maybe. Anyway, what I found is that I have to quench it in cold water, which scares the hell out of me, because I was really afraid of ruining the whole thing. Follow along with my rising tension and gritted teeth as I heated it to cherry red with the torch, then plunged it into the cold water, swishing the hot steel around with one hand, and holding the still burning torch in the other, then tested it with a file. It seems OK, none too hard, but my other corner chisels are both chipped right now, so maybe that's not a bad thing. And here it is. 3/4" wide, still with the natural hematite finish and no handle, but sharpened and ready to use. I oughta have the handle on and make some wood chips tomorrow night. A big day for an old man. Does anybody want to talk about welding laminated edges now? Phil Koontz (pounding my club on the ground and making grunting noises...) ---- Start of Message 57822 (thread 25190) ---- From: "George Langford, Sc.D." Date: 1999-02-17 10:36:00 Subject: Re: Almost too much fun Hi Phil & edgy Galoots ! Phil Koontz described the post-industrial way of making a corner chisel: > This one is especially for the metalheads. Thanks, Phil - always looking for a way of edging onto The Porch ... > ... (snippage) ... and I [almost - Ed.] finished up my first corner > chisel tonight. ... make sockets for the handles ... Upset the end > if necessary in the coal forge, then spread it to about 3 inches > wide; a little more if possible. Then roll it into a cone so the > edges butt, and weld the seam with a gas torch ... Way cool, Phil; no sense smashing & bashing into the wee hours by stubborn refusal to admit that qwe all use other modern technology too, and this _is_ supposed to be fun. > ... filling the gaps with welding rod wherever necessary. > ... (more snipping) ... started with a piece of Geoprobe (TM) rod ... Part of my own hauls from the Amish blacksmiths' auctions consist of piles of jackhammer points - perfect for impact-resistant tools because they are probably an S (shock - resisting) type too steel. The old guys had the same idea as Phil does. > ... it's basically a broken tool from work. > ... (snip) ... purportedly made of tool steel. > ... and cut lengthwise with a hacksaw-- a semi-circular cross > section a foot long and a quarter inch thick. Yikes ! That must have been hard work. > Shaping the rod to a square cross section was done with a shop-made > spring swedge, which is like a two piece mold that I hammered on to > shape the (hot) semicircle into a right angle. The swedge has an > angle on the outside, and a square bar on the inside. Way, way cool. > ... (snip) ... did the rough sharpening and finishing with files > and SS paper, then heat treated it. Non-metalhead alert ! > Here is where the excitement came in. This steel is something > I have used several times, and it seems to be only mildly hardenable; > 1045 steel maybe. Probably S2 or S5 - yes, indeedie - a medium carbon steel. > Anyway, what I found is that I have to quench it in cold water, > which scares the hell out of me, because I was really afraid of > ruining the whole thing. Don't be scared - it doesn't yell at you - just says, "Poynk." > Follow along with my rising tension and gritted teeth as I heated > it to cherry red with the torch, then plunged it into the cold water, > swishing the hot steel around with one hand, and holding the still > burning torch in the other, then tested it with a file. Better to plunge exactly straight up & down with a stabbing motion, and keep on doing that same motion until after the boiling stops. Sideways motions make it distort too much. > It seems OK, none too hard, ... Major error - don't test the hardness until after you have tempered it, because it is highly vulnerable and likely to reply, "Poynk" to the insult of being stuck in the cold water. Tempering, even at only 300 Fahrenheit or so, will get rid of the offending hydrogen, reduce the horrendous internal forces, and restore the absolutely necessary teensie amount of ductility that steel needs to cope. > but my other corner chisels are both chipped right now, so maybe > that's not a bad thing. Oh, oh. > And here it is. 3/4" wide, still with the natural hematite finish > and no handle, but sharpened and ready to use. I oughta have the > handle on and make some wood chips tomorrow night. Debbie's oven will temper it for you - 3 hours won't be too much. > A big day for an old man. Nice accomplishment ! > Does anybody want to talk about welding laminated edges now? On a corner chisel ? Egads ! Best regards, George Langford, before dawn in SE PA. amenex@e... ---- Start of Message 57840 (thread 25190) ---- From: James Foster Date: 1999-02-17 16:41:00 Subject: Re: Almost too much fun > > The first step was to learn to make sockets for the handles, and I have > finally more or less got that down. Upset the end if necessary in the > coal forge, then spread it to about 3 inches wide; a little more if > possible. Then roll it into a cone so the edges butt, and weld the seam > with a gas torch (sorry about the modern touch here, but maybe I will get > off the crutches someday), filling the gaps with welding rod wherever > necessary. Then back to the forge to shape the socket around a punch. > It happens I have an old punch just the right shape for about a 1" > opening. > Hrisoulas' book, The Master Bladesmith, has a chapter on making spears where he talks about several ways of making sockets. You might want to take a quick look at it, though I recall that one option was to finish up by welding with oxyacetylene, so you're using a technique that's been used by one of the better bladesmiths around. > Shaping the rod to a square cross section was done with a shop-made > spring swedge, which is like a two piece mold that I hammered on to shape > the (hot) semicircle into a right angle. The swedge has has an angle on > the outside, and a square bar on the inside. So that was done a couple > of weeks ago, and the almost finished tool has been lying around since > then. Did you make the swage setup yourself? What'd you use for the steel? > > Tonight I trimmed up both ends, did the rough sharpening and finishing > with files and SS paper, then heat treated it. Here is where the > excitement came in. This steel is something I have used several times, > and it seems to be only mildly hardenable; 1045 steel maybe. Anyway, > what I found is that I have to quench it in cold water, which scares the > hell out of me, because I was really afraid of ruining the whole thing. Isn't a brine solution preferable here? I thought that because it boiled at a higher temperature it cools the metal quicker. ---- Start of Message 57878 (thread 25190) ---- From: Phil and Debbie Koontz Date: 1999-02-17 23:40:00 Subject: Re: Almost too much fun George and red hot galoots-- George asked if I'm serious about edging a corner chisel-- Well, maybe not right away; let's stick to flat chisels for a while. I was thinking about what to start with for that project. I have a big ol' circular saw blade that might do, or some cobalt steel machine lathe bits. I dunno what else to consider--spring steel maybe. Or I hate to say it, but -- new steel? Phil Koontz PS-- I have gotta ask about this teaser from Ron and Esther-- >Rev. Ron said: >Good work, Phil. This thread surpasses even the "What Handtool to Use >to Kill a Chicken" thread of oh-so-many years ago. The only tools I can think of are a hatchet or axe (I have used both--it helps if you have a couple of nails in the block to catch the chickens head and stretch it's neck). But I wonder what else was suggested. Surely no one is compulsive enough to need a miter box for this job? Not that I need to chop chickens just now.... ---- Start of Message 57884 (thread 25190) ---- From: "George Langford, Sc.D." Date: 1999-02-18 00:32:00 Subject: Re: Almost too much fun Hi Phil and sparkling Galoots ! Phil Koontz trun down da gauntlet - > George asked if I'm serious about edging a corner chisel-- > Well, maybe not right away; let's stick to flat chisels for a while. That sounds like a galootinously cautious approach to me. > (snippage) ... what to start with ...: > big ol' circular saw blade ... Mebbe; a little shy of the needed 1% carbon. > cobalt steel machine lathe bits ... Yegads No ! That's high speed steel and utterly unheat-treatable for ill-equipped galoots ! > spring steel maybe ... Weak mebbe. Carbon kinda low here, too. > new steel ... The List will ostracize you for saying _that_ ... but W1 is nice. My suggestion ? Busted chisels - the best "cast steel" that you'll ever see, and the highest & best use of old arn. One busted chisel will make abuncha laminated chisels, once you forge it to half the original thickness and twice the original length. The basis of my discussion is that you want a very hard edge but a soft, tough interior. Water-hardening cast steel or silver steel fills that bill admirably. It will also tolerate being hardened with a torch - or in the blacksmith's forge - where some of the carbon is lost to oxidation. The 1% level leaves about 1/5 of the carbon expendable without losing the ability to get fully hard. But ya still gotta temper it before checking its hardness. Best regards, George Langford, in soggy SE PA amenex@e... ---- Start of Message 57921 (thread 25190) ---- From: Phil and Debbie Koontz Date: 1999-02-18 04:06:00 Subject: Re: Almost too much fun Well, I got some good replies on this one-- George mentioned tempering at low teperature, which I will probably do, although it doesn't seem to be suffering any from stress. James Foster and Mike Tillson both mentioned techniques to get a harder quench with this steel. They are both probably right, and I may go back and do it over, depending on how the "beat on some hard wood" test turns out. I considered briefly using salt water, but the water I had was actually pretty cold, and I didn't want to take the trouble. As an aside, I remember a thread on theforge a while back about something called "Superquench." I think it's a proprietary liquid, but there was a home brew equivalent that included salt dissolved in water to the saturation point, plus detergent and (I think) epsom salts. It is supposed to maximize the combination of boiling point, thermal conductivity, and heat capacity for the quench; apparently to make tools out of marginal steel like cold rolled and railroad spikes. I haven't tried it. The real reason I'm writing this note is to answer James's question; >Did you make the swage setup yourself? What'd you use for the steel? I welded two pieces of 3/8" plate, each about 2-1/2" by 10" together in a shallow "V" shape for the outside (swedge), and put another plate on the bottom for reinforcement and to let the leg vise get a good grip on it. ASCII art for the cross section of this would be an underlined "V" The fuller is a piece of 1-1/4" square bar that lies in the angle, held there by a long strap bent in a hairpin shape--that is the spring (hence "spring swedge"). It's all mild steel, but there is quite a bit of it; the assembly weighs about 20 pounds or more. The spring holds the bar about 1/2" clear of the angle and parallel to it, so I can just slide the work between them and then beat the hell out of it. Phil Koontz ---- Start of Message 57924 (thread 25190) ---- From: eoh@k... Date: 1999-02-18 13:42:00 Subject: Re: Almost too much fun From: Esther Heller Phil asks: PS-- I have gotta ask about this teaser from Ron and Esther-- >Rev. Ron said: >Good work, Phil. This thread surpasses even the "What Handtool to Use >to Kill a Chicken" thread of oh-so-many years ago. The only tools I can think of are a hatchet or axe (I have used both--it helps if you have a couple of nails in the block to catch the chickens head and stretch it's neck). But I wonder what else was suggested. Surely no one is compulsive enough to need a miter box for this job? Not that I need to chop chickens just now... There were several joke answers, but the serious one works out to a hatchet, a heavy kitchen knife, or the YB infill equivalent of a special killing knife that apparently you stick into the throat into the brain, particularly useful for geese whose feathers you want to save without shredding the skin off.... (Lee Valley offered this in the Sabatier sell-off a year ago.) In the original I also discussed stretching out on a block vs suspending upside down in the air. I don't recall what all the joke answers were but some were pretty inventive. Esther eoh@k... ++++ End of thread 25190 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25191 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57810 (thread 25191) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-02-17 04:34:00 Subject: Repairing saw handle I picked up a nice little Disston & Sons Backsaw out with the fleas last week ($4, my first time ever talking someone down, all the way from $5). I took the handle apart in order to attach the electrons to it, it was really rusty. One of the square post nuts had the square stripped. I cut a small slot with my dremel in order to remove it. It was light enough that I think I can buff it out, however... How would you go about repairing the square in the handle? Other than this problem the handle is pristine (well, once a little grease was removed, how can these people get grease on the handle and not on the blade?) TIA for any info. SWMBO was impressed when this rusty flat piece of steel turned out to have readable etching on the blade. Roger Books ++++ End of thread 25191 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25192 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57814 (thread 25192) ---- From: ecoyle@c... (eric coyle) Date: 1999-02-17 05:41:00 Subject: Tim is off to the GWN........ Tim wrote...... I just wanted to ask our Galoots to the north if there might be any good rust hunting spots around Ottawa, Ontario (or between Kingston and Ottawa). I'm headed up that way this weekend for some ice skating and general bumming around------<> c'mon Tim Ya gotta be kidding. With a comment like that..... It's probably not tools yer lookin for, but rather real Canadian toilets- unlike those low flush ones you poor yanks gotta install now. Hmmmm maybe that's why there was all the talk of outhouses recently. Honestly, saw a programme tonight on folks from the sub-GWN running x-border to bring back illegal (in the us) toilets cause they WORK..... Sorry for you folks that can put a man on the moon, but as for flushing toilets.....let your congressman decide!! Of course there is Sandy Mclaughlin's Woodworking museum in Kingston, and then there used to be a barn about 2-3 km west of highway 15 just south of Smith Falls that was a little hard to find (pick up a brochure from a tourist info place maybe?) Stop at the canal museum in Smith falls, it was nice to see last time I was there. That's where I picked up the info to locate said barn, so maybe on the trip home. Why not phone Leonard Lee and see if ya can get a gander at his oldtools. All he can say is "no". And iffen ya wanna get back the GST, (an acronym decoded in some parts of GWN as the "gouge and screw tax", but more legally defined as the goods and services tax, ) ya now gotta get yer receipts stamped as you leave the country. Have fun. Cowtown Eric ++++ End of thread 25192 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25193 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57821 (thread 25193) ---- From: Andrew Tune Date: 1999-02-17 09:46:00 Subject: Workshop floors (Yes, I'm creeping out from under the porch again!) Hi, guys! Been a while since I've poked my head above the porch. Moving house, etc. I'm building a workshop (actually a garage which has to house 2 cars & a workshop, but it will end up being 26'x29', so it's an OK size. But: a slab! However, I've heard people complain about working on a concrete floor. Sure, a sprung wooden floor would be ideal, but in a garage it's not practical. So I wondered: does anyone have any experience of cork flooring (you know, cork tiles, those 1 ft square and .25" thick cork tiles) laid on top of concrete? Seems it would be kinder on tools than bare concrete, and possibly kinder on me. Is it all _that_ disastrous working on a concrete slab? Any advice would be appreciated! ++++ End of thread 25193 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25194 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57823 (thread 25194) ---- From: "Bob Key" Date: 1999-02-17 13:03:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors (Yes, I'm creeping out from under the porch again!) Andrew pines for a wooden floor: > However, I've heard people complain about working on a concrete > floor. Sure, a sprung wooden floor would be ideal, but in a > garage it's not practical. Who says you have to floor the whole thing? I built a wooden platform around my bench area - which is where I spend most of my time anyway. It's a lot more comfortable than concrete. I used a grid of 2x4 pine with with the flooring fastened on top of that. Good and quick and cheap. And I can take it with me when I move. -Bob Key. ---- Start of Message 57825 (thread 25194) ---- From: RayTSmith@a... Date: 1999-02-17 14:04:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors (Yes, I'm creeping out from under the porch again!) In a message dated 99-02-17 04:55:49 EST, Andrew.Tune@t... writes: << Is it all _that_ disastrous working on a concrete slab? >> It doesn't bother my feet, but it can be damaging to tools. I've messed up a chisel edge, and busted the cheek out of a #18 by dropping them. Haven't put down a mat or wood floor yet, because its easy to sweep shavings the way it is. Although I probably should... Rya T. Smith ---- Start of Message 57826 (thread 25194) ---- From: "Paul A. Coppinger" Date: 1999-02-17 14:23:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors (Yes, I'm creeping out from under the porch again!) Andrew, I faced the same problem and just bought some of the anti-fatigue floor mats available from catalogs and local stores. They help the feet, offer some tool protection and are removable for cleaning, etc. Once, I did drop a newly sharpened chisel on the mat and the corner of the chisel cut through the mat and hit the concrete. After saying all the appropriate words and phrases, I had to rework that chisel a little. Still, it was better than dropping directly on the concrete. Hope this helps. Best regards, Paul A. Coppinger cop106725@t... >Hi, guys! > >Been a while since I've poked my head above the porch. Moving house, etc. > >I'm building a workshop (actually a garage which has to house 2 cars & a >workshop, but it will end up being 26'x29', so it's an OK size. But: a slab! > >However, I've heard people complain about working on a concrete floor. Sure, >a sprung wooden floor would be ideal, but in a garage it's not practical. > >So I wondered: does anyone have any experience of cork flooring (you know, >cork tiles, those 1 ft square and .25" thick cork tiles) laid on top of >concrete? Seems it would be kinder on tools than bare concrete, and possibly >kinder on me. Is it all _that_ disastrous working on a concrete slab? > >Any advice would be appreciated! >-- >Andrew Tune Mobile: 0419 654 321 > >-- > > ---- Start of Message 57833 (thread 25194) ---- From: Ferdster@a... Date: 1999-02-17 15:07:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors (Yes, I'm creeping out from under the porch again!) GG, I don't how cork tile would do on concrete, but we have cork tile in one of our bedrooms that has been inservice for about 40 years now and it still looks pretty good. It seems to be thinner and more dense than the cork tile I have seen recently. BTW This bedroom's walls are done in the type fiberboard that the Stanley fiberboard planes were made for. I cannot imagine what they were thinking about! The stuff is soft like a bulletin board, T & G and chamfered like solid paneling. Cats love it. I put some bead board up on the bottom half to cover cat damage, but keep the top to "preserve" this "duh" from the past. Frank C A Connecticut Yankee in the Heart of Dixie ---- Start of Message 57851 (thread 25194) ---- From: "Brent D. Beach" Date: 1999-02-17 18:17:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors (Yes, I'm creeping out from under the porch , again!) On Wed, 17 Feb, Andrew Tune wrote: >Hi, guys! > >Been a while since I've poked my head above the porch. Moving >house, etc. > >I'm building a workshop (actually a garage which has to house >2 cars & a workshop, but it will end up being 26'x29', so it's >an OK size. But: a slab! > >However, I've heard people complain about working on a >concrete floor. Sure, a sprung wooden floor would be ideal, >but in a garage it's not practical. > >So I wondered: does anyone have any experience of cork >flooring (you know, cork tiles, those 1 ft square and .25" >thick cork tiles) laid on top of concrete? Seems it would be >kinder on tools than bare concrete, and possibly kinder on me. >Is it all _that_ disastrous working on a concrete slab? > >Any advice would be appreciated! Andrew You did say any advice. The ausies have many unique things, but the one thing that really works in this situation is their humoungous slippers. My wife calls them my Clydesdales. They are sheepskin, wool in, suede out, with rubber soles. They can be had in sizes from normal slipper size, less than 6" (#1 size) tall, to about 14" (#6 size) tall. Mine are only 9" tall (#3). They do get a little dirty in the shop (suede outer), but they keep your feet warm and have a thick enough sole to prevent sore feet. So, keep the tools you are not using on the wall or in the drawer, the tools you are using in the tool well or off the bench when sawing or mortising, and spend the money on slippers and tools rather than cork. Brent Brent Beach, Victoria, BC, CA ---- Start of Message 57854 (thread 25194) ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1999-02-17 18:49:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors (Yes, I'm creeping out from under the porch , again!) Brent D. Beach wrote: > > You did say any advice. > > The ausies have many unique things, but the one thing that > really works in this situation is their humoungous slippers. > (snip) > They are sheepskin, wool in, suede out, with rubber soles. > (snip) > They do get a little dirty in the shop (suede outer), but they > keep your feet warm and have a thick enough sole to prevent > sore feet. Whew. For a minute there, I thought he was going to suggest that you wear these and try to catch with your foot anything that falls to the floor. I don't recommend this practice. DAMHIKT. Ed ---- Start of Message 57858 (thread 25194) ---- From: Carl W Muhlhausen Date: 1999-02-17 18:10:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors (Yes, I'm creeping out from under the porch again!) Andrew Tune wrote: > > > So I wondered: does anyone have any experience of cork flooring (you know, > cork tiles, those 1 ft square and .25" thick cork tiles) laid on top of > concrete? Seems it would be kinder on tools than bare concrete, and possibly > kinder on me. Is it all _that_ disastrous working on a concrete slab? > > Any advice would be appreciated! > -- > Andrew Tune Mobile: 0419 654 321 I just use a thick rubber mat in front of the bench and my middle aged legs and feet do ok. One thing I'd do if I were planning a shop area from scratch is to paint the walls and floor before I move all the stuff in there and to plan the lighting and electrical wiring in advance, unless you don't need electricity - tallow candles, torches, etc. Carl ---- Start of Message 57860 (thread 25194) ---- From: Ed_Balko@E... Date: 1999-02-17 19:28:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors (Yes, I'm creeping out from under the porch again!) This thread has had a number of postings concerning the use of anti-fatigue matting in the shop. Those who have back problems after working at a bench for a while might also want to consider the sort of shoes you're wearing, it really can make quite a difference. I'm using a pair of safety shoes intended for car mechanics or machine operators whose job requires them to stand on concrete floors all day - beefy looking things with thick soles - and they are a real improvement over sneakers or old loafers. I don't try to stop dropped chisels with my foot though, even wearing these. FWIW Ed Balko Middletown, NJ ---- Start of Message 57894 (thread 25194) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-02-18 01:38:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors (Yes, I'm creeping out from under the porch again!) I was in an arcade the other day (you know, the kind where kids shoot dead things and they don't have space invaders any more) and they had this rubberized floor stuff, really easy on the legs and it looked almost indestructible. Not very galootish, but very practicle looking. Roger Books ---- Start of Message 57916 (thread 25194) ---- From: Chuck Hess Date: 1999-02-18 04:31:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors (Yes, I'm creeping out from under the porch again!) Aloha galoots; We have a shop with concrete floor. I like a painted floor and use anti-fatigue mats in front of the benches and lathe. I think that they definatetly help. aloha Chuck Andrew Tune wrote: > Hi, guys! > > Been a while since I've poked my head above the porch. Moving house, etc. > > I'm building a workshop (actually a garage which has to house 2 cars & a > workshop, but it will end up being 26'x29', so it's an OK size. But: a slab! > > However, I've heard people complain about working on a concrete floor. Sure, > a sprung wooden floor would be ideal, but in a garage it's not practical. > > So I wondered: does anyone have any experience of cork flooring (you know, > cork tiles, those 1 ft square and .25" thick cork tiles) laid on top of > concrete? Seems it would be kinder on tools than bare concrete, and possibly > kinder on me. Is it all _that_ disastrous working on a concrete slab? > > Any advice would be appreciated! > -- > Andrew Tune Mobile: 0419 654 321 > > -- ---- Start of Message 57919 (thread 25194) ---- From: Andrew Tune Date: 1999-02-18 10:05:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors (Yes, I'm creeping out from under the porch again!) Galoots: Thanks to all who offered advice. The consensus of the on-list and off-list postings was that a sprung wooden floor is best, a wooden platform is second best, and that mats are an excellent alternative. Honourable mention to the big slipper/ugg-boot suggestion. The McDonalds playground surface I will admit is lovely, but would be out of place with timber and antique tools, methinks. Thanks to one and all. ++++ End of thread 25194 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25195 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57828 (thread 25195) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-17 14:28:00 Subject: A test Baloon Folks... We have been pondering the next article in the Galoot Fassion Line. I have come down to two items: 1) "Polo" type shirt (pull-over, short sleeve, collared shirt, Jeff) with the Neanderthal Logo embroidered over the left breast area. suitable for wearing at WW'ers groups meeting, "casual day" at the office, etc..... 2) A Cotton, (Bib-Type) Shop Apron w/ the logo screened on it. these mnight be difficult to oreder in "small-bulk" but We''ll see. So I the first question... If I were to explore further into one or the other.... Which one should I spend my energy working on? since I have the Morning off... I'm heading out to two places that offer embroidery/silkscreening services in town to kick the Idea around with them and get a feel for unit prices. ---- Start of Message 57831 (thread 25195) ---- From: "Paul A. Coppinger" Date: 1999-02-17 14:50:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon Shop Apron. Best regards, Paul A. Coppinger cop106725@t... >Folks... >We have been pondering the next article in the Galoot Fassion Line. >I have come down to two items: > >1) "Polo" type shirt (pull-over, short sleeve, collared shirt, Jeff) with >the Neanderthal Logo embroidered over the left breast area. suitable for >wearing at WW'ers groups meeting, "casual day" at the office, etc..... > >2) A Cotton, (Bib-Type) Shop Apron w/ the logo screened on it. >these mnight be difficult to oreder in "small-bulk" but We''ll see. > > >So I the first question... If I were to explore further into one or the >other.... >Which one should I spend my energy working on? > >since I have the Morning off... I'm heading out to two places that offer >embroidery/silkscreening services in town to kick the Idea around with them >and get a feel for unit prices. >-- >John A. Gunterman... Horse shoeing for cash only. > > Visit the New Apprentice Neanderthal Page at: >http://people.ne.mediaone.net/spokeshave/A_N.HTM > >-- > > ---- Start of Message 57835 (thread 25195) ---- From: "Matthew J. Prusik, Jr." Date: 1999-02-17 15:13:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon Both the Polo and Shop Apron! Matt ---- Start of Message 57837 (thread 25195) ---- From: b2d@e... (Duke of URLs) Date: 1999-02-17 22:23:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon Cod piece? Keith Bohn P.S. All kidding aside, I think it's logical to go the shop apron route. Work from there until there's a line of soft side luggage. Easier to spot a Galoot inna airport with. If you do decide on a shirt consider the Carharts 7 1/2oz. 100% cotton. It's a Galoots shirt for sure. ---- Start of Message 57838 (thread 25195) ---- From: eoh@k... Date: 1999-02-17 15:49:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon From: Esther Heller John is thinking about galoot haberdashery... A polo shirt, _no_ pocket (chest pockets always come out wrong on females built like normal adult females), medium to dark colo(u)r to not show stains as quickly. Esther eoh@k... ---- Start of Message 57856 (thread 25195) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-02-17 20:01:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon > >2) A Cotton, (Bib-Type) Shop Apron w/ the logo screened on it. >these mnight be difficult to oreder in "small-bulk" but We''ll see. > This sounds good but I will need a "large bulk". Adam ---- Start of Message 57861 (thread 25195) ---- From: "Brent D. Beach" Date: 1999-02-17 19:27:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon On Wed, 17 Feb, "John A. Gunterman" wrote: >We have been pondering the next article in the Galoot Fassion >Line. I have come down to two items: > >2) A Cotton, (Bib-Type) Shop Apron w/ the logo screened on it. >these mnight be difficult to oreder in "small-bulk" but We''ll >see. I would be super keen (OT content) on a shop apron of the type used by turners. Right now my shirt pockets and even inside the shirt end up as chip collectors. Even get wood chips mixed in with the navel lint some days. Yep, a turners apron would be a great choice. Brent Brent Beach, Victoria, BC, CA ---- Start of Message 57864 (thread 25195) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-17 19:53:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon >John is thinking about galoot haberdashery... entirely self serving reasons, I assure you!-) I'm running out of nice shirts for casual day at work!!! >A polo shirt, _no_ pocket already veto'ed by the fassion police. > chest pockets always come out wrong on females Ohh yes, thanks Esther... Speaking of Females.... after my trip to the local place*(see sidenote) I decided I needed to have The Fassion Police (SWMBO, who also does seamstress stuff, to look at the offerings) I brought Karen along and then, as ladies do, she sat down and spilled through all the catalogs... then she started looking at the stitching on seams the weights of fabric and all that sorta stuff. Anyway she has mandated that _she_ wants these two things so they will be offered.... I really think the ladies out there will enjoy _thier_ offerings. >medium to dark colo(u)r to not show stains >as quickly. Already accounted for. but thanks for poitning it out. *Sidenote: tw'as a little father/son operation, been there for 25 years doing area highschool stuff, neat place.. You should see thier prodcution machine ! ---- Start of Message 57867 (thread 25195) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-17 20:03:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon At 3:01 PM -0500 2/17/99, Adam Whiteson wrote: >This sounds good but I will need a "large bulk". being ummm "husky" myself and knowing the plight.... it was the first question I asked. Rest asured that shirts can be had in 3XL but they WILL cost extra (more material ;-) ---- Start of Message 57868 (thread 25195) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-17 20:19:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon >I would be super keen (OT content) on a shop apron of the type >used by turners. Right now my shirt pockets and even inside the >shirt end up as chip collectors. Even get wood chips mixed in >with the navel lint some days. well I looked at thier apron offerings, I hate pockets for the reasons you state above, and other more tender ones..... the had one avalible to them out of the Commercial Food Workers catalog.. it was a Heavy 100% Cotton knee lenght "Butchers Apron".. only had one pocket, a pencil pocket .... >Yep, a turners apron would be a great choice. well it is still open under the chin lika any apron would be.. so you could still get chip inside the apron fairly easily but the price was favorable. I'm not closing that option just yet but it may be a "second run" thing.... we'll see.... the market analysis is still rinnning ;-) ---- Start of Message 57876 (thread 25195) ---- From: Pierre Fogal Date: 1999-02-17 22:33:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon ** Reply to note from "John A. Gunterman" Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:53:11 -0500 > >A polo shirt, _no_ pocket > > already veto'ed by the fassion police. Darn! I guess this nerd won't be wearin' that shirt to work then! Clipping my fountain pen to the place where the buttons are works, but I seem to forget they're there when I take the shirt off. Next thing you know its into the laundry and SWMBO .... well you can figure out the rest. Incidentally, I vote for the polo shirt, being well stocked in aprons. Best, Pierre Dr. Pierre Fogal Physics Dept., University of Denver Denver, CO, USA. ---- Start of Message 57877 (thread 25195) ---- From: Joe Hurray Date: 1999-02-17 22:33:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon "John A. Gunterman" wrote: > > Folks... > We have been pondering the next article in the Galoot Fassion Line. Go with the apron, of course....Do you know how bad us fat guys look in a polo shirt? (It's not a pretty sight!) Joe in NH ---- Start of Message 57879 (thread 25195) ---- From: SSalbWW@a... Date: 1999-02-17 23:38:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon hurray@m... writes: > Go with the apron, of course....Do you know how bad us fat guys look in > a polo shirt? (It's not a pretty sight!) > Joe in NH I personally RESENT all you fat guys dictating the fashion taste of the rest of the world. What, you think everyone's a perfect size XXL? Do you know how hard it is to find smalls? I'm tired of the oppression. Damn you all. Not everyone looks like a galoot fashion model. Shannon ---- Start of Message 57881 (thread 25195) ---- From: "David Barnett" Date: 1999-02-18 00:09:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon Shannon Salb wrote: >I personally RESENT all you fat guys dictating the fashion taste of the rest >of the world. What, you think everyone's a perfect size XXL? Do you know how >hard it is to find smalls? I'm tired of the oppression. Damn you all. Not >everyone looks like a galoot fashion model. Oh, to be a perfect size XXL again! Of course, I'd have to lose five X's to get there. David Barnett Northampton, MA ---- Start of Message 57882 (thread 25195) ---- From: Joe Hurray Date: 1999-02-18 00:14:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon Shannon wrote: Not everyone looks like a galoot fashion model. Wow, I never quite thought of myself as a "galoot fashion model", but now that you mention it.... Hey John, How about organizing the first "galoot fashion show"????? Can you picture it??? Joe in NH, ROTFL!!!!!! ---- Start of Message 57889 (thread 25195) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-02-18 01:20:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon Joe Hurray wrote: > Shannon wrote: > Not everyone looks like a galoot fashion model. > > Wow, I never quite thought of myself as a "galoot fashion model", but > now that you mention it.... > Hey John, How about organizing the first "galoot fashion show"????? > Can you picture it??? Go for it, just make sure to warn me before the lingerie and swimsuit sections of the show start. I'll want to make sure I'm ANYWHERE but there ;^) Dan ---- Start of Message 57893 (thread 25195) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-02-18 01:36:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon John A. Gunterman wrote: > > Folks... > We have been pondering the next article in the Galoot Fassion Line. > I have come down to two items: > > 1) "Polo" type shirt (pull-over, short sleeve, collared shirt, Jeff) with > the Neanderthal Logo embroidered over the left breast area. suitable for > wearing at WW'ers groups meeting, "casual day" at the office, etc..... > > 2) A Cotton, (Bib-Type) Shop Apron w/ the logo screened on it. > these mnight be difficult to oreder in "small-bulk" but We''ll see. > I would have no interest in the Apron, but would jump on the shirt, with one small condition. See, I'm 5'7" and 140 lbs. The XXXL is a bit out. Actually, you might want to have "galoot" put on the sleave, nothing like wearing your passion on your sleave. :) I have been considering the hat, but I just wouldn't wear it. The only hat I have been known to wear was forced on me by the USN. On a rare cold occasion a knit watch-cap has hit also, but mostly I avoid it. Roger Books ---- Start of Message 57895 (thread 25195) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-18 01:29:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon > Do you know how hard it is to find smalls? quite yer' whining ya little twerp... actually, even Kids sizes are availibe... Which should fit you pretty well Shannon ;-) ---- Start of Message 57896 (thread 25195) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-18 01:31:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon >Hey John, How about organizing the first "galoot fashion show"????? NO, nobody has tackeled the lower half of the body yet... we need socks, skivvies and pants..... >Can you picture it??? I'd really rather NOT, thank you!-) ---- Start of Message 57897 (thread 25195) ---- From: The Boldts Date: 1999-02-18 01:37:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon Somehow a polo shirt just doesn't seem very Galootinous. I'd vote for "Duke of URL's" suggestion about the Carharts shirt. Besides, it would go better with my red/green suspenders. ;>) BOBthe45guy ---- Start of Message 57898 (thread 25195) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-18 01:47:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon >I'd vote for "Duke of URL's" suggestion about the Carharts shirt. I'm up for suggestions.... Just show me a URL so I can see one and someone that I can contact about quantity pricing.... The one thing we are REALLY trying to do is keep costs under controll here... I can have a fantastic shirt delivered for $30.00 each... but IMO that is out of the range most people will drop on one.. by the sam etoken I can deliver one for $15.00 each that is really not even wortth the time in doing I'm still looking for the elusive NICE and high quality shirt for a delivered price of $25.-- 'cause really, whi on thier right mind (even Galoots) would pay more that that for a _shirt_?-) ---- Start of Message 57905 (thread 25195) ---- From: "Ron Harper" Date: 1999-02-18 02:12:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon Galoot logo on large band aids? -----Original Message----- ---- Start of Message 57907 (thread 25195) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-18 02:34:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon >1) "Polo" type shirt (pull-over, short sleeve, collared shirt, Jeff) with >the Neanderthal Logo embroidered over the left breast area. >So I the first question... If I were to explore further into one or the >other.... >Which one should I spend my energy working on? Polo shirt, please! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) On the road in Newark, NJ wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 57926 (thread 25195) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-02-18 14:42:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon All, Well, if it has to be a "POLO" brand, I still favor it over an apron. But, I'd like it better if it was a Bugle Boy brand! Karl - keep SWMBO's in aprons, not Galoots! ---- Start of Message 57957 (thread 25195) ---- From: Bob and Margaret Johnson Date: 1999-02-18 23:37:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon John A. Gunterman wrote: > > >Hey John, How about organizing the first "galoot fashion show"????? > > NO, nobody has tackeled the lower half of the body yet... > we need socks, skivvies and pants..... > By George I think he's got it! Speedos for all with the club logo boldly displayed on the left buttock. Then we could see who had the nerve to appear in the first "galoot fashion show" Bob (count me out - my body is old and seriously ugly) ---- Start of Message 57964 (thread 25195) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-19 00:35:00 Subject: ... Re: A Test Baloon Would an embroidered patch that could be sewn on, be something folks would be interested in? John, Y'ever try to herd cats? ---- Start of Message 57966 (thread 25195) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-19 00:51:00 Subject: Re: ... Re: A Test Baloon -----Original Message----- From: John A. Gunterman > >Would an embroidered patch that could be sewn on, be something folks would >be interested in? > >John, >Y'ever try to herd cats? Hey - I was with ya right from the start... I'd pony up some bucks for a full-blown embroidered polo shirt - then I'd be a member of FOYBGPSO (galoot polo-shirt owners) (still gloating over and protecting like mad my limited edition type-1 Dennis Heyza galoot t-shirt!!) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) On the road in Newark, NJ wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 57968 (thread 25195) ---- From: Joe Hurray Date: 1999-02-19 01:28:00 Subject: Re: ... Re: A Test Baloon "John A. Gunterman" wrote: > > Would an embroidered patch that could be sewn on, be something folks would > be interested in? Great idea! But, how in the world were you able to spell "embroidered"? You gotta new spell checker John????? Joe in NH ---- Start of Message 57971 (thread 25195) ---- From: "Russ Ellsworth" Date: 1999-02-19 02:20:00 Subject: Re: ... Re: A Test Baloon Idaho (at lest this small patch of it) votes infavor of the patch(of course). Sewing on Scout patches my SWMBO understands very well!! You may start a real collectors war with this though...a patch for GG events all over the country...collect them all...or just USE them? Russ Ellsworth Boise, Idaho > >Would an embroidered patch that could be sewn on, be something folks would >be interested in? > > > > >John, >Y'ever try to herd cats? > >-- > > ---- Start of Message 57973 (thread 25195) ---- From: "Gary P. Johns" Date: 1999-02-19 03:02:00 Subject: Re: ... Re: A Test Baloon John, I'll go for the patch, but I'm still voting for the polo shirt. Unlike other galoots I don't give a damn if somebody dosen't like seeing me in polo shirts. There just "tres cool"! Gary Johns OldTool Heaven "RustHunter" http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9147 ---- Start of Message 57975 (thread 25195) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-02-19 03:37:00 Subject: Re: ... Re: A Test Baloon William K. Taggart wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: John A. Gunterman > > > > >Would an embroidered patch that could be sewn on, be something folks would > >be interested in? > > > >John, > >Y'ever try to herd cats? > > Hey - I was with ya right from the start... I'd pony up some bucks for a > full-blown embroidered polo shirt - then I'd be a member of FOYBGPSO (galoot > polo-shirt owners) > I'm still up for a shirt in whatever form. You don't herd cats, you shake the food bowl, if they are hungry they come, if not you look at them and say "Well p*ss off". Roger Books (Who has the two cats that adopted him AND two cats that belong to friends who are in Venice for _6_ months :( ---- Start of Message 57976 (thread 25195) ---- From: "Matthew J. Prusik, Jr." Date: 1999-02-19 03:34:00 Subject: Re: ... Re: A Test Baloon John: A patch is fine on either the apron or polo shirt ... but what's the rationale behind it? Matt ---- Start of Message 58002 (thread 25195) ---- From: Steve_Bussell@i... Date: 1999-02-19 13:00:00 Subject: Re: ... Re: A Test Baloon I would be interested in either the patch or the shirt. thanks, Steve "John A. Gunterman" cc: Sent by: Subject: ... Re: A Test Baloon owner-oldtools@l... ornell.edu 02/18/1999 07:35 PM Please respond to spokeshave Would an embroidered patch that could be sewn on, be something folks would be interested in? John, Y'ever try to herd cats? ---- Start of Message 58005 (thread 25195) ---- From: Chuck Phillips Date: 1999-02-19 14:06:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon I'll vote for the polo shirt. The work wardrobe can always use more shirts, and I'm supposed to wear things with collars... Chuck Phillips Having fun in the House of a Thousand Projects. ---- Start of Message 58012 (thread 25195) ---- From: MisterMatt@a... Date: 1999-02-19 14:56:00 Subject: Re: ... Re: A Test Baloon A patch might be cool. Then we can add merit badges for Galoots who prove skill on various old tools (note tongue firmly planted in cheek). See you at Crane's Matt Glass - NYCity Galoot ---- Start of Message 58015 (thread 25195) ---- From: SSalbWW@a... Date: 1999-02-19 15:08:00 Subject: Re: ... Re: A Test Baloon In a message dated 2/18/99 10:03:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, gpjohns@o... writes: > I'll go for the patch, but I'm still voting for the polo shirt. Unlike > other galoots I don't give a damn if somebody dosen't like seeing me in > polo shirts. There just "tres cool"! Ditto here. Shannon Salb Washington, D.C. ---- Start of Message 58020 (thread 25195) ---- From: DaveWolv@a... Date: 1999-02-19 16:10:00 Subject: Re: A Test Baloon > Hey - I was with ya right from the start... I'd pony up some bucks for a > full-blown embroidered polo shirt - then I'd be a member of FOYBGPSO (galoot > polo-shirt owners) > > (still gloating over and protecting like mad my limited edition type-1 > Dennis Heyza galoot t-shirt!!) Geez, every time I put off reading the list for 4 days or so, someone starts selling clothing. I missed the first batch of shirts, and apparently nearly missed JG's too. I fear to think what might happen if I was offline for a month -- probably come back to find Victoria's Secret models showing off skimpy "shop aprons" made from skillfully-woven shavings in patterned alternating rosewood and maple with walnut border. Come to think of it, I know at least one SWMBO is named Victoria... naw, I won't go there. :-) [snapping back to reality] I vote for an embroidered polo shirt or denim shirt, but I'm a sucker for Galoot fashion of any kind. dave @ dave's home for wayward benches ---- Start of Message 58022 (thread 25195) ---- From: chasnune@i... Date: 1999-02-19 16:17:00 Subject: RE: ... Re: A Test Baloon John wrote... > > Would an embroidered patch that could be sewn on, be > something folks would > be interested in? Finally, Ya got my vote, I can put the patch on anythin' I want. Hat, apron, shirt, cat whatever. Charlie NUnemaker ---- Start of Message 58067 (thread 25195) ---- From: "cylkowski & broman" Date: 1999-02-20 00:27:00 Subject: Re: ... Re: A Test Baloon > A patch might be cool. Then we can add merit badges for Galoots who prove > skill on various old tools (note tongue firmly planted in cheek). Perhaps a badge of honor for those injured in the line of duty? Sort of a galootish purple heart....maybe with stripes for repeat offenses. Something to cover up the bloodstains on my work shirt. Dave Broman ---- Start of Message 58069 (thread 25195) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-20 00:50:00 Subject: Re: ... Re: A Test Baloon >> A patch might be cool. Then we can add merit badges for Galoots who >prove >> skill on various old tools (note tongue firmly planted in cheek). > >Perhaps a badge of honor for those injured in the line of duty? Sort of a >galootish purple heart....maybe with stripes for repeat offenses. Something >to cover up the bloodstains on my work shirt. Yeah, and how 'bout epaulets on the shoulders for Marksmen who ever actually HIT the scrap can with their cuts off........ ---- Start of Message 58073 (thread 25195) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-02-20 03:57:00 Subject: Re: A Test Baloon On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 19:27:57 -0500 "cylkowski & broman" writes: >> A patch might be cool. Then we can add merit badges for Galoots who >>prove skill on various old tools (note tongue firmly planted in cheek). > >Perhaps a badge of honor for those injured in the line of duty? Sort >of a galootish purple heart....maybe with stripes for repeat offenses. >Something to cover up the bloodstains on my work shirt. > Purple Thumb might be appropriate. Or perhaps a bonehead award with purple thumbs added for repeat citations. ---- Start of Message 58078 (thread 25195) ---- From: Ken Miller Date: 1999-02-20 03:47:00 Subject: Re: A Test Baloon My vote for the patch. Besides being 6'6" tall and hardly any "off-the-shelf" clothes fit, I'm too cheap to buy articles of clothing. ---- Start of Message 58080 (thread 25195) ---- From: Paul Aud Date: 1999-02-20 06:00:00 Subject: Re: A Test Baloon I vote on a patch, either iron or sewn on. It can be put on virtually anything, and probably will cost less (hopefully). later, Oddball ---- Start of Message 58095 (thread 25195) ---- From: "Ron Harper" Date: 1999-02-20 14:37:00 Subject: Re: ... Re: A Test Baloon -----Original Message----- From: cylkowski & broman To: oldtools@l... Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 7:31 PM Subject: Re: ... Re: A Test Baloon >> >Perhaps a badge of honor for those injured in the line of duty? Sort of a >galootish purple heart....maybe with stripes for repeat offenses. Something >to cover up the bloodstains on my work shirt. > >Dave Broman I think Broman's on to something here. I"ve see a lot of Galoots. Trying for sartorial splendor is a little like putting ear rings on hogs. The WIA patch ( wounded in action ) or the Galoot image screened on large bandages would be more on point. Ron Who had the stitches out yeaterday > >-- > > ---- Start of Message 58128 (thread 25195) ---- From: sadler@i... (Alan Sadler) Date: 1999-02-21 07:22:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon About 20 years ago I organized a "shop-building" day for a now deceased woodworker. About 25, semi-skilled workers arrived to poured footings and a truck full of wood. When the day was over, we came really close to completeing a 30' square shop addition (to a 20 x 20 main shop), with skylights, elec, heat etc. As the day started, we handed out Demin Nailbags-aprons, with a logo designed for the owner of the new shop. It was great. I'd still have mine, but I gave mine to the owner's son, who was living in Europe at the time. I currently use a leather apron, that I modified from a welders apron. It's great for catching things that occasionally "fly" accross the shop. I'm close to maxing out my tool budget, however, I'd buy both the apron and shirt, and charge them off as clothes. alan. ---- Start of Message 58129 (thread 25195) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-21 00:43:00 Subject: Re: A test Baloon alan wrote >I'm close to maxing out my tool budget, however, I'd buy both the apron and >shirt, and charge them off as clothes. ME...specially if we're talking shop APRON with front pockets...... a big one to cover the vast wasteland if possible. Tom ++++ End of thread 25195 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25196 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57832 (thread 25196) ---- From: Conan The Librarian Date: 1999-02-17 14:55:00 Subject: Uh oh ... looks like it's cow mat time Paul wrote: > I faced the same problem and just bought some of the anti-fatigue floor mats > available from catalogs and local stores. They help the feet, offer some > tool protection and are removable for cleaning, etc. Once, I did drop a > newly sharpened chisel on the mat and the corner of the chisel cut through > the mat and hit the concrete. After saying all the appropriate words and > phrases, I had to rework that chisel a little. Still, it was better than > dropping directly on the concrete. OK, Duke of URL ... that's your cue. Tell us about cow mats. :-) Chuck Vance Woodworking projects at: http://www.swt.edu/~cv01/woodworking.html ---- Start of Message 57836 (thread 25196) ---- From: b2d@e... (Duke of URLs) Date: 1999-02-17 22:17:00 Subject: Re: Uh oh ... looks like it's cow mat time Chuck Vance prods: > OK, Duke of URL ... that's your cue. Tell us about >cow mats. :-) Wasn't gonna do it. Didn't wanna be overstaying my welcome but... http://www.ihrsa.org/assocps.html#Mats http://www.thehorse.com/0798/flooring.html My work here is done. Keith Bohn ---- Start of Message 57847 (thread 25196) ---- From: Jack Kamishlian Date: 1999-02-17 17:57:00 Subject: Re: Uh oh ... looks like it's cow mat time GGs, To save the Duke of URLs time, I'll 'fess up that I did post a message about "cow mats". I was going to hold off responding, 'cause I think there are probably better cost-effective solutions out there. My problem was the same - how do you reduce fatigue on a cement floor. I did buy 2 cow mats - 4' by 6' by 3/4" thick - for $40 each plus $15 for shipping. Each mat weighs 100 pounds. I cut the mats in half - 3'x4', and use them as an 3'x8' mat in front of my workbench. The mats appear to be solid rubber. Standing on them is close to standing on concrete, but if you drop a tool, you don't have to worry about damaging it. So far, they're easy to clean up - no pockets to trap the chips or dust. And they're holding up well. You could probably walk on them with spiked boots, and not damage them. BTW, I got them from Central Tractor Farm & Country - of course, no affiliation, etc. I'd guess that there's a cheaper and more comfortable solution out there, but it's too much trouble for me to change. I ain't going to lug 200 pounds of rubber out of my basement for something more comfortable. Cheers, Jack Conan The Librarian wrote: > > Paul wrote: > > > I faced the same problem and just bought some of the anti-fatigue floor mat s > > available from catalogs and local stores. They help the feet, offer some > > tool protection and are removable for cleaning, etc. Once, I did drop a > > newly sharpened chisel on the mat and the corner of the chisel cut through > > the mat and hit the concrete. After saying all the appropriate words and > > phrases, I had to rework that chisel a little. Still, it was better than > > dropping directly on the concrete. > > OK, Duke of URL ... that's your cue. Tell us about > cow mats. :-) > > Chuck Vance > Woodworking projects at: http://www.swt.edu/~cv01/woodworking.html > ---- Start of Message 57857 (thread 25196) ---- From: Chris Dunn Date: 1999-02-17 19:02:00 Subject: Re: Uh oh ... looks like it's cow mat time Jack Kamishlian wrote: > My problem was the same - how do you reduce fatigue on a cement floor. > I did buy 2 cow mats - 4' by 6' by 3/4" thick - for $40 each plus > $15 for shipping. Each mat weighs 100 pounds. I cut the mats in > half - 3'x4', and use them as an 3'x8' mat in front of my workbench. > > The mats appear to be solid rubber. Standing on them is close to > standing on concrete, but if you drop a tool, you don't have to > worry about damaging it. > > I'd guess that there's a cheaper and more comfortable solution out > there, but it's too much trouble for me to change. I've got one of those rubber mats (considerably less than 110 lbs) that are offered "special" for about $10 at the Woodworker Show that hits the SoCal area twice annually. I saw them at the American Woodworker Show, too. They are about 3' by 4'. Mine is in front of what passes for my bench (no wisecracks Mr. Brown!). It does the job both for fatigue and tool dribbling .... at a reasonable price. Chris ---- Start of Message 57865 (thread 25196) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-17 19:58:00 Subject: Re: Uh oh ... looks like it's cow mat time Hey, If you have been to a McDonalds that has a play area in it.. look at thier floors in there. it sorta looks likeground up rubber BB's all glued together (Hey Keith, got a URL for _that_?-) Bechya that would make a great shop floor... non-slip when wet as well.. I've seen it used around swimming pools at parks in FL. ---- Start of Message 57866 (thread 25196) ---- From: chasnune@i... Date: 1999-02-17 19:55:00 Subject: RE: Uh oh ... looks like it's cow mat time >Chris wrote... > >I saw them at the American Woodworker Show, too. They are about 3' by 4'. Mine is >in front of what passes for my bench (no wisecracks Mr. Brown!). I cuncur, I bought two rubber mats at Woodcraft on sale for about $20.00 each and they work well in the basement. I am frequently down there in mocassins and the heat is not good. ( I live in Chicago) The mats are warm, comfortable, easy to sweep up and swmbo-ette has dropped a few things and nothing was hurt. Charlie Nunemaker > I've got one of those rubber mats (considerably less than 110 lbs) > that are offered "special" for about $10 at the Woodworker Show that > hits the SoCal area twice annually.It does the > job both for fatigue and tool dribbling .... at a reasonable price. > > Chris > > -- > ---- Start of Message 57869 (thread 25196) ---- From: D & B Brown Date: 1999-02-17 20:31:00 Subject: Re: Uh oh ... looks like it's cow mat time At 11:02 AM 2/17/99 -0800, Chris Dunn wrote: >I've got one of those rubber mats (considerably less than 110 lbs) >that are offered "special" for about $10 at the Woodworker Show that >hits the SoCal area twice annually. I saw them at the American >Woodworker Show, too. They are about 3' by 4'. Mine is in front of >what passes for my bench (no wisecracks Mr. Brown!). Moi? A disparaging remark about *the* bench? I can only hope that one day I.... David Brown ---- Start of Message 57871 (thread 25196) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-17 20:47:00 Subject: Re: Uh oh ... looks like it's cow mat time > Moi? A disparaging remark about *the* bench? I can only hope that one day that one day the bench is bigger than the car?-) ---- Start of Message 57873 (thread 25196) ---- From: "John McCoy" Date: 1999-02-17 21:46:00 Subject: Re: Uh oh ... looks like it's cow mat time On Feb 17, 2:58pm, John A. Gunterman wrote: > Subject: Re: Uh oh ... looks like it's cow mat time > Hey, > If you have been to a McDonalds that has a play area in it.. look at thier > floors in there. > it sorta looks likeground up rubber BB's all glued together (Hey Keith, > got a URL for _that_?-) > Bechya that would make a great shop floor... non-slip when wet as well.. > I've seen it used around swimming pools at parks in FL. Recycled old tires and stuff. It apparently is susposed to hold up under UV and all the other indignities Florida weather produces. Downside is it's two part process - you mix the rubber stuff with some sort of binder stuff (in what looks like a small cement mixer) and pour it out just like concrete. Dunno if it comes in a small size / do-it-yerself version. John (who favors hardwood 4x4 blocks, end grain up, as a shop floor - but doesn't have anything remotely like it) ---- Start of Message 57875 (thread 25196) ---- From: Chris Dunn Date: 1999-02-17 22:17:00 Subject: Re: Uh oh ... looks like it's cow mat time John A. Gunterman wrote: > > > Moi? A disparaging remark about *the* bench? I can only hope that one day > > > > that one day the bench is bigger than the car?-) .... and works better than the car, too! Chris - proud owner of a functional bench & a '68 MGB ---- Start of Message 57903 (thread 25196) ---- From: snoe749@i... Date: 1999-02-18 02:23:00 Subject: Re: Uh oh ... looks like it's cow mat time > Chris - proud owner of a functional bench & a '68 MGB Note that he didn't say a functional _MGB_ Steve Noe, in Indianapolis, who knows that certain nationalities drink warm beer, because they have Lucas refrigerators. snoe749@i... ---- Start of Message 57908 (thread 25196) ---- From: "Ron Harper" Date: 1999-02-18 02:48:00 Subject: Re: Uh oh ... looks like it's cow mat time -----Original Message----- From: snoe749@i... To: a065117@e... Cc: spokeshave@m... ; d.b.brown@m... ; OLDTOOLS@l... Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 9:24 PM Subject: Re: Uh oh ... looks like it's cow mat time Steve Chimes in >> Chris - proud owner of a functional bench & a '68 MGB > >Note that he didn't say a functional _MGB_ > Couldn't and live by the Galootish code of integrity. Had one a them puppies. Ain;t worth a new stanley plane My .02 >Steve Noe, in Indianapolis, who knows that certain nationalities drink >warm beer, because they have Lucas refrigerators. >snoe749@i... > >-- > > ---- Start of Message 57911 (thread 25196) ---- From: Datoolfool@a... Date: 1999-02-18 03:17:00 Subject: Re: Uh oh ... looks like it's cow mat time That safety surface at McDonalds can be had from NoFault here in Baton Rouge, La. they have done them all over including "honey I shrunk the kids" at Mouse world. I did a church playground and used it. you wouldn't believe the regulations on fall protection and playground equipment. For 2" thick, about $13 per sq ft a few years ago, not much more than rubber matting at that time. ++++ End of thread 25196 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25197 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57839 (thread 25197) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-02-17 15:48:00 Subject: Porch project: was Uh oh ... looks like it's cow mat time Over about the last year I've been looking into ways to archive all this type of info in a useful format so we don't have to post the same info over and over again. If you've ever tried to search the archive you know that it's next to impossible to find anything. What I had envisioned was that urls, contacts, event dates etc would be organized on a web page so that they are easy to find and so that anyone can easily contribute new info without having to have the webmaster update things all the time. My first attempt was to try and find a free web page provider that would allow me to write my own servlets or cgi scripts for my web page. No luck there. Next I went to egroups.com and checked out what they had at http://www.egroups.com/list/oldtools/, well not much there so I sent of an e-mail telling them what I thought should be added. next I tried the communities at excite.com. I set up an oldtools community at http://comm.excite.com/comm/area/pw/welcome/main.asp?cid=.T1b5on5y-WQ&auth= This seemed to fit the bill perfectly, until I asked some people to join and found out that some people don't like cookies. At first you needed to accept cookies even to look at it but that seems to be fixed. So I then set up an oldtools club on yahoo.com at http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/oldtools. Same kinds of problems only even less flexible. So finally back to e-groups, they've added some stuff, calendar, online poll, folders and they tell me they will have file upload capability soon for those who would like to share a photo of their latest creation/gloat/etc. It's not as snazzy as excite and yahoo but it has the big added bonus of already being in use by some galoots and is integrated with the egroups archive of oldtools. What I propose is that when you post about an event you may want to go and add it to the calendar at egroups. Ditto for useful urls. I've already set up a folder for old tool dealers. If you don't see a folder that fits your category then make a new one. I expect we'll need things like, new "old" tool dealers, galoot web pages, tool restoration etc. If everyone added just one useful link we'd have quite a valuable resource in no time. Another thing that's been thrown around more than few times is a contact list of collectors and their particular tool perversion. Egroups isn't quite as easy to use for this as excite and yahoo but we can just set up another folder and you can add yourself in. So what do you think? Is this of any interest or a complete waste of time? Dan ++++ End of thread 25197 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25198 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57842 (thread 25198) ---- From: "R. J. Paulsen, Jr." Date: 1999-02-17 17:01:00 Subject: Speaking of Stanley #2's....... GG's I have a Stanley #2 that I'm trying to type or at least get a date range smaller than the one I came up with. I am well aware that #1 & #2's are more difficult to type because they offer fewer clues. The base on mine has no clues whatsoever other than its size. It is 7" long, but does NOT have "No.2" cast into the bed. The lateral adjustment lever is blank. The cutter has the "BB" trademark and the lever cap does not have the kidney shape hole but has the "KK" logo. Did Stanley make a kidney shaped hole for the #2? The wood is rosewood w/a tall knob. Using Roger Smith's type study and assuming the blade could be a replacement (it is long), I calculate a date range of 1919-1955. I'm hoping that someone can narrow that down, particularly with the fact that there is no "No. 2" cast into the bed. Comments appreciated, TIA, rjp ++++ End of thread 25198 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25199 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57849 (thread 25199) ---- From: "Norm Sager (Micro Consultants)" Date: 1999-02-18 05:59:00 Subject: Re:Safty First Hi GG's I have been puttering in home shops for about 20 yrs now, and spent 2 1/2 yrs as a union carpenter's apprentice. As for my bonifieds in the "I messed up in the shop" department, I have had steel particles removed from an eye three times in that period, drilled into the palm of my hand once, and there is a spot on my left index finger that is scarred slightly from having ground it (along with the blade I was grinding), several times. Some thoughts gained from personal experiance. 1.) (while at the forge) Just because steel is black, as opposed to glowing, does not necessarily mean that it is not hot. 2.) (while at the grinder). You can get steel in your eye while wearing safety glasses (happened twice). A full face shield is more effective. 3.) (while at the forge) If the air blast blows a hot chunk of clinker or coal down your glove, learn to dance. The hot chunk will be cold before you get the glove off. 3.) (In any shop senario) Never proceed after muttering the words "I'll be careful." under your breath. 4.) (In any shop senario) Put safety first, always. It is a running joke among carpenters that any carpenter with all his fingers is doing something wrong. 5.) (This may not be recomended by your doctor, and there is the slight danger of pushing steel further in, but it has saved me 50 bucks numerous times (use at your risk)) If you get steel particles in your eye, take a small rare earth magnet (very powerful little things), make sure it is clean, and rub gently over the surface of the effected eye. Take a clean cotton swab, and wet it with sterile water, and gently swab out the effected eye. This will remove most steel particles in the eye. As stated above, this can push stuff further in, but I have not had a problem with it. 6.) No matter how complete the shop "medicine chest" is, always carry a small first aid kit in your carpenter's tote. Make sure that includes a good tweezer, the above mentioned rare earth magnets, and a sharp pen knife. Heading out to the shop and hopfully coming back with all my fingers and toes Norm Sager microc@z... ---- Start of Message 57918 (thread 25199) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-18 07:23:00 Subject: Re:Safty First Gentle Galloots, if you wish to stay emerge from the woodworking shrine in the same state of physical health as you went in, here is my favourite tip Stay Calm and in Control This means: if you are tired and desparate to finish the job - stop. If half-way through a glue-up, with the glue going off all those carefully balanced clamps fall in a noisy heap; take it apart, wipe off the glue, and leave the shop. Next time make some nailed-up-scrap piece to hold the clamps. I learnt the hard way. I had bought a 7Lb Felling axe. But the handle was twisted. So I thought, easy remove handle, steam, straighten, replace. So... drill out wedge (careful, don't want to damage the handle) Get piece of scrap, hold in axe eye, hit with mallet. All went well, for about an inch. Then the handle stopped moving, I replaced the mallet with a 1 1/2 pound hammer and hit it some more. 5 minutes elapsed. Another half inch. Then the piece of scrap disintegrated. OK. I'm a woodworker. Take piece of OAK scrap, saw/chisel an object that is just smaller than the acxe eye, for maximum strength, and maximum contact with the top of the handle, to minimise damage to the handle (remember - I'm trying to get the handle out!) 15 minutes elapsed Hold axe handle (with "driver" in eye) in left hand, strike with 1 1/2 pound hammer. Another 1/4 inch. 20 minutes elapsed Pick up 2 1/5 pound hammer. Continue. Another 1/4 inch. Throughout the process sweat, frustration and temper have been growing steadily. Inspect progress. Decided that handle is almost through the "waist" of the axe head. Wind up for *HUGE* blow with hammer. Catch edge of finger of the hand holding the axe between fast-moving hammer, and 7Lb axe head. Nip out large piece of flesh, and suffer a lot of pain... 25 minutes elapsed, job NOT done, injury sufferred. (2 days later I drove the axe handle back on, and drilled a little more of the wedge out. Removed handle with scrap and mallet - took about 5 minutes) So take your time, people, and do it right the first time. BugBear. ---- Start of Message 57925 (thread 25199) ---- From: eoh@k... Date: 1999-02-18 14:27:00 Subject: Re:Safty First From: Esther Heller Snip of hurting yourself vs. taking your time.. >So take your time, people, and do it right the first >time. > BugBear. I will second this. One of the most surprising things to me about my initial training as a field service rep 25 years ago was the continuing insistence on being aware of yourself and how things are going, and the absolute necessity of leaving if "everything is going wrong" and getting away from the machine and getting a cup of coffe or something to clear your head. Make any excuse to the customer, need a part, need a reference manual, but leave and think of something else for 15 minutes. You are far less likely to hurt yourself or do something "stupid" and damage the machine if you do, and you will finish the job quicker and safer. That kind of self awareness wasn't fashionable for guys 25 years ago, but the good reps all pushed the concept on us new hires. Ignoring this is a quick way to make me refuse to work with you. Esther eoh@k... ---- Start of Message 57927 (thread 25199) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-18 15:02:00 Subject: Re:Safty First > >Snip of hurting yourself vs. taking your time.. > >>So take your time, people, and do it right the first >>time. > >> BugBear. > Esther wrote.. >... the continuing >insistence on being aware of yourself and how things are going, and >the absolute necessity of leaving if "everything is going wrong". This aspect of safety reminds me of the old saw amongst downhill skiers; "It's always the last run when it happens..." Of course there's a double meaning in that, but the truth is that when you're flying down the mountain and the muscles are getting rubbery fom exhaustion you're just not as able to handle surprises; a metaphor for the shop? Tom (who is trying to stay away from tools till I find my mind) ---- Start of Message 57928 (thread 25199) ---- From: "Gary P. Johns" Date: 1999-02-18 15:13:00 Subject: Re:Safty First Galoots, The recent enumeration of shop injuries is enlightening. I will share one of my memorable ones for a different reason than the others mentioned already...tired,,,angry,,,frustrated...etc. My reason is due to pressure from one's boss. It was many moons ago (enough that I don't care to count) when I worked in a machine shop for college money. We made automatic doors for grocery stores, buildings, stuff like that. I was drilling out a little item called a "clutch dog". Picture a 1" diameter piece of steel 1 1/2" long with geared teeth on the face of one end. This dog had to have a 1/4" hole drilled through the cylinder at one end to accept a pin. Usually we got these little buggers in lots of 5000. Drill the hole...debur the hole...send off to be heat treated...get back and sandblast each and every one. Take about 4 months from start to finish. My *boss* (instead of the words I'd like to call him) decided I didn't know how to do a setup on the drill press. So he proceeded to setup a small metal working vise and crash bar on the press and tell me to start drilling. I pointed out to him that his setup was improper and allowed the vise to climb the drill and become a one-bladed helicopter at low altitude. His response was to just shut up and start working if I wanted to keep my d*mn job. So being the proverbial young, dumb, and not-quite-so-stupid but smart enough to keep my mouth shut, I started working. Coupla hours later the vise starts to climb the drill and me being a bit tired from holding said vise for the last two hours, couldn't stop it. In it's short trip around the drill press it managed to knock a can of cutting oil into my eyes. Then proceed to break off the drill head! Now this clown comes over and trys to blame it on me!! Fortunately the shop foreman and I were on good terms. When he meandered over to see what the commotion was...I informed him of the bad setup and left him to jaw with my boss as I was on my way to the doctors. Cost for this little escapade? A trip to the doctor's for me and lost time recovering, a broken drill head off of the press (had two other heads on it but they were geared differently) and delay of the parts. Lessons learned? Never be afraid to tell someone that you think their wrong. And stick up for your rights even if your boss is an A**HOLE! ps. My old boss is still there in the shop as foreman now. He use to tell me I'd never amount to anything because I was going to college. So I went to see the shop a while back wearing my best Sunday-go-to-meeting suit and just smiled at him when I saw him. He looked kinda quizzical. Gary Johns OldTool Heaven "RustHunter" http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9147 ---- Start of Message 57929 (thread 25199) ---- From: "Lawrence H. Smith" Date: 1999-02-18 15:30:00 Subject: Re:Safty First At the risk of repetition, one catch-all shop safety tip is to listen to your gut feeling or intuition when they tell you "this is stupid". Learn to avoid "this is stupid, but..." and you will save a lot of time; that's a thought which is commonly reported to have passed through the head of injured persons shortly before they injured themselves. I actually applied this only last night (in the good way). I was putting up some string to define possible layouts for a new barn, and was about to cut it with my palm on the opposite side of the string (trying to hold onto it so it wouldn't snap back). "...this is stupid..." so I rearranged how I was holding things so that the knife was going into space after cutting the string, not into me. -Lawrence H Smith, Librarian/Computarian for Buxton School and Woodworker -lsmith@s... Cats, Coffee, Chocolate... Vices to live by. ++++ End of thread 25199 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25200 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57850 (thread 25200) ---- From: Tim Fuss Date: 1999-02-17 18:07:00 Subject: Thanks for the suggestions! Please let me offer a hearty grunt of thanks to all of the kind and helpful Galoots who've offered thier tool haunts, sightseeing options and red herrings... I don't know whether museums will figure into the diversions this time, but I firmly believe in leaving something "un-done" so that I'll always have a reason to come back. Dan, if you catch this before you go, watch for my spiffy stealth cap while you're out skating. I doubt that I can convince the rest of our troupe to schedule a meeting time, so lets simply test the improbability drive (just a nod to the Hitchhikers Guide, Jeff) and see if we cross paths. Brent, I'll see if Prescott fits into the return trip on Monday! Eric, those of us who are doomed to a life south of the border can still get a decent flush. The new units simple need a little er, adjustment (but you didn't hear that from me). I'll try to be a little more discreet than bumming around in public ;-) Louis (from Ottawa), sure, I'll let you know if I score some good iron in your backyard . ++++ End of thread 25200 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25201 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57852 (thread 25201) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-17 18:42:00 Subject: Plow iron ID? Picked up a boxwood plow last Sat and the iron is marked with a diamond, and inside the diamond it looks like Diamon... to the right there are what looks like ....HILD... and below that SHEFFIELD... Nuf for an ID?...or an IDea? TIA Tom ++++ End of thread 25201 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25202 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57853 (thread 25202) ---- From: "Michael" Date: 1999-02-17 18:49:00 Subject: Bottom Feeding & Wooden Toilets - English version. Having read Charley Rodgers description of having to 'burn' the sess pit out I was reminded of a similar experience as told me last year. I was chatting to a visitor at the museum and the conversation ranged over a number of subjects and, darned if I know how, it ended up on the subject of army toilets somewhere overseas in a hot climate. Now the British Army has regulations covering every possible subject, be it the fitting of 'French Letters' {condoms}, to the way ones kit is laid out for inspection, so naturally there is a laid down routine for the construction of outside toilets. So here we have a beautifully dug hole some six to ten feet deep surrounded by hessain walls and fitted with a nice comfortable seat to sit and 'reflect' on. Now it would appear from what I was told that this particular privvy was built at a form of 'stageing camp' with a continual through-flow of soldiers who had to be kept occupied. One of the jobs given them was the job of pouring parrafin into the hole every day to cover the surface to stop mosquito larvae from hatching. Now it just so happened that the RSM {Regimental Seargeant Major} always liked to take a stroll down there after breakfast to 'commune with nature' on his lonesome and to smoke a contemplative pipe. On this particular morning he goes down, drops his trousers, sits back with a sigh, lights his pipe, and throws the math over his shoulder, ... now UNFORTUNATELY for him, and what he didn't know, was that for some unknown reason those given the job of pouring parrafin into the hole had used petrol instead, which had vapourised in the hole - I leave you to fill in the rest of the events in your imagination - 'spectacular' I believe were the words used by the person telling me the story. Mike. ++++ End of thread 25202 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25203 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57862 (thread 25203) ---- From: ralph.brendler@a... (Ralph Brendler) Date: 1999-02-17 19:37:00 Subject: Witte Auction Get-Together My fellow Flatlander Galoots: It's that time of year again-- the annual Tom Witte Spring auction is upon us! This year it is March 5/6, at the Ramada Inn Airport in Indianapolis (note the new location-- maybe this hotel actually has parking). The preview is Friday from 5-8 and Saturday morning from 8 until the auction starts at 9:30. There are 615 lots in the catalog this year, so knowing auctioneer Bill Baxter, we should be done around 1:00 pm. As always, there will be a galoot get-together in my room after the preview Friday night. Lee Sudlow will be bringing a keg of his excellent hefeweissen, and everyone is encouraged to bring something for show&tell. We'll try to get a couple of pizzas as well (after the Decatur pizza debacle, I'll let somone else take care of this). ;-) All are welcome. We've done this for the past 5 years or so, and it's always been a great time. As far as the auction goes, my first glance over the catalog is not promising. The quality of the offerings is outstanding, but that means the prices will probably be high. In particular, there are a *lot* of extremely rare Stanley planes and other goodies on the docket, which means that the big-money collectors will be all over this one. So much for bargain hunting... ;-) Still, the dealer sale is always good at these shows, and there's nothing like tossing back a couple of gallons of homebrew with other galoots! I wouldn't miss it for the world... Hope to see a bunch of you there! ralph ++++ End of thread 25203 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25204 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57863 (thread 25204) ---- From: ralph.brendler@a... (Ralph Brendler) Date: 1999-02-17 19:48:00 Subject: Auction lot description While looking over the catalog for the upcoming Witte Auction, I stumbled acroiss this little gem: "588. Headhunter's Knife from the Phillipines. 22" long, with 12" curved bit. Unusual, ready to show or use..." YIKES! I don't know whether this was a typo or not, but I'm laughing my head off... ralph ---- Start of Message 57906 (thread 25204) ---- From: "Ron Harper" Date: 1999-02-18 02:15:00 Subject: Re: Auction lot description -----Original Message----- From: Ralph Brendler To: Oldtools list Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 2:50 PM Subject: Auction lot description >While looking over the catalog for the upcoming Witte Auction, I stumbled >acroiss this little gem: > >"588. Headhunter's Knife from the Phillipines. 22" long, with 12" curved >bit. Unusual, ready to show or use..." Mebbe Baxter will do a demo > > ++++ End of thread 25204 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25205 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57870 (thread 25205) ---- From: Steve_Bussell@i... Date: 1999-02-17 20:31:00 Subject: Galoot shirts/aprons (was:Re: A test Baloon) My vote would be for the polo shirts. Not that play much polo, I just like the shirts : ) Steve ++++ End of thread 25205 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25206 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57872 (thread 25206) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-17 21:09:00 Subject: WTB Hildick plow irons Thanks to Brent who wrote more about these irons that I would have imagined was available and to all who wrote to complete the ID, THANKS! Of course now that means that I have something new to hunt for.... irons anyone? Thanks to all, Tom ++++ End of thread 25206 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25207 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57880 (thread 25207) ---- From: Jim Ketcheson Date: 1999-02-17 21:51:00 Subject: Book Has anyone any information on a book written by Cecil Pierce entitled "50 Years a Planemaker and User". Question is whether or not it would be a help in plane making and of course if it is available. Any comments or thoughts? Jim Ketcheson Canada ---- Start of Message 57923 (thread 25207) ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1999-02-18 13:38:00 Subject: Re: Book Jim Ketcheson wrote: > > Has anyone any information on a book written by Cecil Pierce entitled > "50 Years a Planemaker and User". I can't say how much help it would be in plane making, as I've never really looked at it. I do know, however, that when Cecil died in January, 1996, it was long out of print. I seem to recall that there was some hope of a reprint once the estate was settled, but can't remember if it happened. Ed, in Cincinnati, who met Cecil in September, 1995, and bought a copy of his dovetail book. ---- Start of Message 57937 (thread 25207) ---- From: miket@c... Date: 1999-02-18 16:05:00 Subject: RE: Book The publisher I believe was a place called Monmouth Press, but I don't have a number for them. If they do another printing however, I'd certainly grab a copy, I missed it the first time around. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-oldtools@l... [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Ed Bell Sent: Thursday, February 18, 1999 8:38 AM To: A Bunch of Galoots Cc: jim.ketcheson@s... Subject: Re: Book Jim Ketcheson wrote: > > Has anyone any information on a book written by Cecil Pierce entitled > "50 Years a Planemaker and User". I can't say how much help it would be in plane making, as I've never really looked at it. I do know, however, that when Cecil died in January, 1996, it was long out of print. I seem to recall that there was some hope of a reprint once the estate was settled, but can't remember if it happened. Ed, in Cincinnati, who met Cecil in September, 1995, and bought a copy of his dovetail book. ---- Start of Message 57940 (thread 25207) ---- From: "Yarrow, Gary SH" Date: 1999-02-18 19:14:00 Subject: RE: Book Excellent book. Its now in print again. Does get into some of the nitty gritty of planes, very interesting reading. Gary ----------Has anyone any information on a book written by Cecil Pierce entitled "50 Years a Planemaker and User". Question is whether or not it would be a help in plane making and of course if it is available. Any comments or thoughts? Jim Ketcheson Canada ---- Start of Message 58024 (thread 25207) ---- From: phaddox@M... Date: 1999-02-19 16:40:00 Subject: Re: book Jim Ketcheson wrote: > Has anyone any information on a book written by Cecil Pierce entitled > "50 Years a Planemaker and User". I received one for Christmas. Haven't tried to build anything yet, but it is fascinating. The book is available from Astragal Press. http://astragalpress.com/index.html or ordered online from Museum of Woodworking Tools Store http://www.antiquetools.com/cgi-bin/tools Jim Haddox ++++ End of thread 25207 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25208 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57887 (thread 25208) ---- From: Jimmy Reina Date: 1999-02-18 12:39:00 Subject: Norris Planes ---- Start of Message 57890 (thread 25208) ---- From: "David Barnett" Date: 1999-02-18 01:17:00 Subject: Re: Norris Planes Jimmy Reina wrote: >>I'm no expert, but I've seen quite a few examples of post-wwII Norris >>smoothers with wide mouths and thin blades. They also had painted >>hardwood infills and looked pretty cheesy. >>I read or was told that in the last gasp, they were more or less trying >>to compete with Stanley. I wouldn't buy one of these and expect much. > I'm no expert either, but I can't agree with this statement. I sell a >lot of Norris(and other infill) planes, and I have come to the following >conclusions based on my observations and conversations with British tool >dealers. (vast snippage) You never addressed the wide-mouth thin-blade issue from the original thread. Has that been your experience at all, and if so, to what do you attribute the cause? If it's sharpening of the tapered irons, why post-war in particular? David Barnett Northampton, MA ---- Start of Message 57950 (thread 25208) ---- From: Jimmy Reina Date: 1999-02-19 10:58:00 Subject: Re: Norris Planes > >>I'm no expert, but I've seen quite a few examples of post-wwII Norris > >>smoothers with wide mouths and thin blades. They also had painted > >>hardwood infills and looked pretty cheesy. > >>I read or was told that in the last gasp, they were more or less trying > >>to compete with Stanley. I wouldn't buy one of these and expect much. > > > I'm no expert either, but I can't agree with this statement. I sell a > >lot of Norris(and other infill) planes, and I have come to the following > >conclusions based on my observations and conversations with British tool > >dealers. > > (vast snippage) > > You never addressed the wide-mouth thin-blade issue from the original > thread. Has that been your experience at all, and if so, to what do you > attribute the cause? If it's sharpening of the tapered irons, why post-war > in particular? > I was initially addressing the subject of Beech infill and the perception that Beech is an inferior material. There seems to be quite a bit of variance in the mouths of most of these planes. I suspect part of the reason for this was due to granpa lapping the sole at some point or even opening up the mouth if he was as heavy handed as I am. I have both a Spiers and a Beech filled Norris smoother in front of me and the Spiers has a slightly thicker iron AND a slightly wider mouth. I suspect that Norris didn't make all of their own irons, because I have seen at least one stamped "Norris" on the front and "Sorby" on the back. It is possible that some of their sources produced a slightly thinner iron at times, either by spec or just to cut their own corners. Kind of like Black and Decker putting those stupid two foot cords on all of their consumer power tools (can'y you see some bean counter saying "if we save for feet of 16 gauge copper wire on every tool......."). One of my points was that if the narrowest throat opening is the goal, and one feels that one doesn't have maximum throat narrowness on the plane that one owns, there are remedies-Ron Hock and other blacksmiths, were one man's solution. If I thought that a '65 Mustang was the cool car, and I found THE cool "65 Mustang, but it had a lousy Philco radio, I wouldn't condemn the car. It seems difficult to make these conclusions based on observing just a handful of 50+ year old tools, but it is sure fun trying. Jimmy Reina > -- ---- Start of Message 57953 (thread 25208) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-18 23:23:00 Subject: Re: Norris Planes Jimmy wrote > I suspect that Norris didn't make all of their own irons, because I >have seen at least one stamped "Norris" on the front and "Sorby" on the >back. I've seen quite a number of these.....no fluke here. Clearly Norris outsourced blades. I also agree with Jimmy that if your Norris is your smoother and you want a tighter mouth, a custom blade is the answer; modification to the plane and you get the result you want. An added bennie: Full length Norris blades that are clean with a deep mark can bring $100 just for the blade. Good reason to pay Ron for something that you're going to shorten on that new Baldor, and leave the Norris in the toolbox. .02 and out Tom ---- Start of Message 57992 (thread 25208) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-18 16:31:00 Subject: Re: Norris Planes > > Jimmy wrote > > I suspect that Norris didn't make all of their own irons, because I > >have seen at least one stamped "Norris" on the front and "Sorby" on the > >back. > I've seen quite a number of these.....no fluke here. Clearly Norris > outsourced blades. > Yep. Known for it. Making a plane requires one set of skills, in machining, and precision engineering. Making a fine blade requires a different set of skills. Speaking from the UK I have a minor obessession with Sorby (all three types). Their edge tools are stunning. (chisels of all types, plane blades) I don't know how many of these got to the US, but then, I don't see many Buck Bros. chisels, and I tend to use beech, not maple. Man, the atlantic is one BIG puddle! BugBear. ---- Start of Message 58007 (thread 25208) ---- From: "David J. Stevens" Date: 1999-02-19 14:39:00 Subject: Re: Norris Planes Tom Johnson wrote: >I've seen quite a number of these.....no fluke here. Clearly Norris >outsourced blades. > >I also agree with Jimmy that if your Norris is your smoother and you want a >tighter mouth, a custom blade is the answer; modification to the plane and >you get the result you want. An added bennie: Full length Norris blades >that are clean with a deep mark can bring $100 just for the blade. Good >reason to pay Ron for something that you're going to shorten on that new >Baldor, and leave the Norris in the toolbox. A few summers ago, I stopped by Tom Witte's place, which was quite an experience, partly 'cause it was my first chance to fondle a Norris (in fact, many Norris's). Tom had 2 or 3 stacks of blades sitting next to the Norris's. He said that he had "commissioned" someone (didn't say who) to create the blades specifically for Norris planes. So you might want to call Tom and get the specs on the blades from him--maybe they're thick enough to close up some of the loose mouths. No connection with Tom, other than I like to see fellow Michiganders do well. David J. Stevens a transplanted Michigander now found in San Antonio, TX ---- Start of Message 58043 (thread 25208) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-02-19 08:24:00 Subject: RE: Norris Planes ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of ~ Jimmy Reina ~ Sent: Friday, February 19, 1999 10:58 AM ~ To: djbarnett@m... ~ Cc: OLDTOOLS@l... ~ Subject: Re: Norris Planes ~ ~ ........................if the narrowest throat ~ opening is the goal, ~ and one feels that one doesn't have maximum throat narrowness on the ~ plane that one owns, there are remedies-Ron Hock and other ~ blacksmiths, I've no wish to deprive the excellent Ron of income, but for the financially challenged (or experimentally-minded before lashing out hard cash) some shim steel (or brass, perhaps card temporarily) between the blade and the frog will reduce the shaving aperture. With a bit of tailoring of the shape it can be contrived to stay in place when the iron is removed. I have one of the late Norrises, the infill (to the thickness of the tote) consists of beech flanked on each side by English Walnut. The blade has Norris on one face and Sorby on the other. Shimmed, it stays on the shelf, chiefly because it is so difficult to adjust with Norris's adjuster - originally conceived as an 'add on' I guess. (Not for sale, however). Jeff ---- Start of Message 58050 (thread 25208) ---- From: Jimmy Reina Date: 1999-02-20 08:31:00 Subject: Re: Norris Planes > some shim steel (or brass, perhaps card temporarily) > between the blade and the frog will reduce the shaving aperture. With > a bit of tailoring of the shape it can be contrived to stay in place > when the iron is removed. I was thinking about shimming as I wrote this, Jeff, but I felt that there is such an empphasis on "ethnic purity" with these name brands that shimming would be considered sacralige. At least "Hock" is one of the hallowed brand names.As far as I'm concerned shimming is about the safest thing to do with a credit card(outside of mixing epoxy). > Shimmed, it stays on the shelf, chiefly because it is so difficult to > adjust with Norris's adjuster. Do you think this has to do with the shim fighting the adjustment mechanism? I have fixed a couple of these. It's a tricky little piece of machinery. thanx for your input Jimmy > > > -- ---- Start of Message 58056 (thread 25208) ---- From: Pierre Fogal Date: 1999-02-19 21:34:00 Subject: RE: Norris Planes ** Reply to note from Jeff Gorman Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:24:19 +0000 > hard cash) some shim steel (or brass, perhaps card temporarily) > between the blade and the frog will reduce the shaving aperture. I used some 1/32" ptfe sheet on my Spiers. It worked great, and the bedding has improved also. Pierre Dr. Pierre Fogal Physics Dept., University of Denver Denver, CO, USA. ---- Start of Message 58122 (thread 25208) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-20 23:35:00 Subject: Re: Norris Planes -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Gorman Cc: OLDTOOLS@l... Date: Saturday, 20 February 1999 03:57 Subject: RE: Norris Planes > >Shimmed, it stays on the shelf, chiefly because it is so difficult to >adjust with Norris's adjuster - originally conceived as an 'add on' I >guess. Yeah, I have this problem also with mine. I've found that waxing the infill and the blade on both faces makes for a MUCH easier adjustment. Also I de-tension the lever cap maybe 1/16 of a turn, move the blade and tension it back. Actually, I've found Norris planes need very little tension on the lever to mak e everything sing. And with little tension the adjuster will MOL work. >(Not for sale, however). > Hmmmm, talk about hopes let down with a thud! ;-) Actually, I've noticed woodworkers who end up owning a Norris or other British infill are VERY reluctant to sell them. Wonder why? Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ---- Start of Message 58143 (thread 25208) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-02-20 07:49:00 Subject: RE: Norris Planes ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of ~ Jimmy Reina ~ Sent: Saturday, February 20, 1999 8:32 AM ~ To: Jeff@m... ~ Cc: OLDTOOLS@l... ~ Subject: Re: Norris Planes ~ ~ Do you think this has to do with the shim fighting the ~ adjustment ~ mechanism? I have fixed a couple of these. It's a tricky ~ little piece of ~ machinery. I have thought of this, but it was equally difficult to adjust before I did this. Frankly, I think, as I know a few others do, that this adjuster is fundamentally ill-conceived. It is amazing however what the halo effect has on some people's unwillingness to recognise the limitations of this thing. I don't take an interest in the minutiae of old tools, but in some catalogue or other, I think I have seen the adjuster offered as an independent item that could be fitted to non-adjuster planes. Now who knows a generic name for non-adjusters? There aught to be one - well a polite one anyway! Jeff ---- Start of Message 58144 (thread 25208) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-02-20 08:11:00 Subject: RE: Norris Planes ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Pierre ~ Fogal ~ Sent: Friday, February 19, 1999 9:35 PM ~ To: OLDTOOLS@l... ~ Subject: RE: Norris Planes ~ ~ ~ ** Reply to note from Jeff Gorman ~ Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:24:19 +0000 ~ ~ ~ > hard cash) some shim steel (or brass, perhaps card temporarily) ~ > between the blade and the frog will reduce the shaving aperture. ~ ~ I used some 1/32" ptfe sheet on my Spiers. It worked great, and the ~ bedding has improved also. Useful stuff, ptfe. I have thought of re-mouthing a wooden plane with it, but wonder if the eventual differential wear would be a problem. It works OK as a front lip insert on a rounding 'trap' I made some time age. Jeff ---- Start of Message 58207 (thread 25208) ---- From: Chris Winter Date: 1999-02-22 15:50:00 Subject: RE: Norris Planes >Frankly, I think, as I know a few others do, that this adjuster is >fundamentally ill-conceived. It is amazing however what the halo >effect has on some people's unwillingness to recognise the limitations >of this thing. This has come up before on oldtools and I didn't have enough experience with the tool at the time. I have now given a WWII vintage Norris A5 quite a workout in the meantime on a variety of woods including smooth as butter mahogany to a very curly cherry of recent butchering. I find the adjuster to be just fine. Sure the range of "true" adjustment is about a 1/10th of a turn for fine adjustment (maybe less) and there is some slop in the mechanism (not from wear), but I find it functional and relatively easy to use. And sure, it would be nice to have a very fine thread where the real adjustment range is much greater *for use in work requiring the finest adjustment*. This thread reminds me of my car afficionado days (before I traded oil for sawdust), when the car magazines would review wonderful sports cars, only to give a lesser rating as "the Ferrari is not easy to get into and out of" duh.... I am very content with the tool as is. Throw a shim or a new Hock blade in it to close the mouth and you've got one of the best smoothing apparati (?) you could hope for - and I find the adjuster far better than none if you're comparing apples to apples in terms of price. I have not been in a position requiring a decision to either place a value on, nor pay a "premium" for the *assumed* additional cost of the adjuster on these second hand tools. But for a user, I think the adjuster is worthwhile. Enjoy the wood, the tools, and the day. Chris Winter ---- Start of Message 58212 (thread 25208) ---- From: RayTSmith@a... Date: 1999-02-22 18:36:00 Subject: Re: Norris Planes In a message dated 99-02-22 10:58:15 EST, Chris@l... writes: << I find the adjuster to be just fine. Sure the range of "true" adjustment is about a 1/10th of a turn for fine adjustment (maybe less) and there is some slop in the mechanism (not from wear), but I find it functional and relatively easy to use. >> Never had any trouble with mine either. If you can walk and chew gum at the same time, you should be able to use a Norris adjuster. It goes side to side, up or down. Pretty simple, actually. Besides, its not like you're adjusting a scrub plane. The thinner the shaving, the more time it takes to get things just right, whether its a Norris, Stanley, Shelton, etc. Ray T. Smith ---- Start of Message 58254 (thread 25208) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-02-23 07:21:00 Subject: RE: Norris Planes ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of ~ Jeff Gorman ~ Sent: Saturday, February 20, 1999 7:49 AM ~ To: toolsx3@f... ~ Cc: Old Tools (E-mail) ~ Subject: RE: Norris Planes Sorry folks! I wrote: ~ .................................................... in some ~ catalogue or other, I think I have seen the adjuster offered as an ~ independent item that could be fitted to non-adjuster planes. Having found the 1991 reprint of the 1914 catalogue it is very evident that it was not available separately. Jeff ---- Start of Message 58258 (thread 25208) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-23 08:15:00 Subject: Re: Norris Planes > > Besides, its not like you're adjusting a scrub plane. The thinner the > shaving, the more time it takes to get things just right, whether its a > Norris, Stanley, Shelton, etc. > > Ray T. Smith I'm slightly baffled by this adjustement, and general tuning lark. To take a full width 2 though shaving (AFAIK) you need the bed flat within 2 thou, the frog square both lateral and vertical to 2 thouh, and the blade adjust square (at least we have lateral adjusters). hang on: if you want a REALLY close mouth, you can't use your lateral adjuster, since you'll just crash one side of the blade into the mouth, before you have achieved the movement required to adjust the depth. Now, speaking as a minor mathematician, I am aware that some of these factors could cancel (or self correct), and that the frog is at an angle, and this probably alters the numbers a bit. But not the fundemental point. Are people REALLY working to these tolerances, or do planes behave just a little weirder than we think? BugBear. ---- Start of Message 58266 (thread 25208) ---- From: RayTSmith@a... Date: 1999-02-23 14:30:00 Subject: Re: Norris Planes In a message dated 99-02-23 04:08:55 EST, bugbear@c... writes: << To take a full width 2 though shaving (AFAIK) you need the bed flat within 2 thou, the frog square both lateral and vertical to 2 thouh, and the blade adjust square (at least we have lateral adjusters). << hang on: if you want a REALLY close mouth, you can't use your lateral adjuster, since you'll just crash one side of the blade into the mouth, before you have achieved the movement required to adjust the depth >> Hmm.... I don't understand this last one. The only time I've ever seen a blade edge jam against the front of the mouth was on an adjustable mouth block plane, when I switched blades and the mouth was set too far back. On a fixed mouth plane, the blade should never contact the front of the mouth when making lateral adjustments. If it does, you've got a badly warped iron, or it isn't seated on the frog properly ? While a full width shaving with a smoother is a fun thing to shoot for if you're bored and trying out your plane tuning skills, I'd be surprised if very many woodworkers make a point to achieve this? I sure don't. I use a slightly crowned profile to the edge and am happy if I'm getting a smoother to take them lacy-thin shavings 1/2 to 3/4 the width of the blade. If the wood is fairly tame, I'll adjust for a heavier shaving and get close to full width, but not with the really thin shavings.... Even if the plane is tuned perfectly, you're still not going to get full width shavings unless the board is also perfectly flat. I figure its better to just get the blade good and sharp and not worry too much about how wide the shaving is. Ray T. Smith ---- Start of Message 58269 (thread 25208) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-02-23 14:54:00 Subject: Re: Norris Planes Paul Womack writes : >hang on: if you want a REALLY close mouth, you can't use your lateral >adjuster, since you'll just crash one side of the blade into >the mouth, before you have achieved the movement required >to adjust the depth. I don't believe so. The plane of the frog is (hopefully) inline with the mouth and tilting the iron won't take it off this plane. >Are people REALLY working to these tolerances, or do planes behave >just a little weirder than we think? The way I adjust a plane - an adjustable one with a parallel iron - for a tiny mouth opening (say .003-4") is as follows : 1. remove the iron, backiron and levercap 2. tape the cutting edge of the iron 3. loosen the frog screws so that the frog can just barely be moved 4. insert the iron flat onto the frog upside down ; ie, with the cutting end up, and the non-cutting end down through the mouth. The iron will stick out quite a bit through the sole 5. using a cheap set of mechanic's feeler gauges move the frog forward until the gauge of required thickness just fits with a bit of resistance between iron and front of mouth. This is where you find out that your mouth is not perfectly straight across, so take a few minutes to make it so with a small file. 6. tighten up the frog screws just a bit and repeat step 5. 7. repeat 5 and 6 until the screws are tight. When you re-install the iron properly, you have to be :very: careful not the hit the cutting edge on the body of the plane. Fully retracting the depth adjustment gives the most room to maneuver. The you have a Bedrock with the screws out back, the above is a bit easier. If you have a Norris, the best way is to start with an iron too thick and lap it until it provides the opening you want. Ray T. Smith has done this. I hope to be able to one day... Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 58276 (thread 25208) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-23 15:37:00 Subject: Re: Norris Planes > In a message dated 99-02-23 04:08:55 EST, bugbear@c... writes: > > << To take a full width 2 though shaving (AFAIK) you need > the bed flat within 2 thou, the frog square both > lateral and vertical to 2 thouh, and the blade adjust square > (at least we have lateral adjusters). > > << hang on: if you want a REALLY close mouth, you can't use your lateral > adjuster, since you'll just crash one side of the blade into > the mouth, before you have achieved the movement required > to adjust the depth >> > > Hmm.... I don't understand this last one. The only time I've ever seen a > blade edge jam against the front of the mouth was on an adjustable mouth bloc k > plane, when I switched blades and the mouth was set too far back. > On a fixed mouth plane, the blade should never contact the front of the > mouth when making lateral adjustments. If it does, you've got a badly warped > iron, or it isn't seated on the frog properly ? The reason you don't understand it, is because it makes no sense. And I should know, because I wrote it. What I thought (but not enough...) is that (in a Bailey type plane, with the mouth shut right down), that the side-to-side motion needed to correct non-square motion would put one of the corners of the blade into the front of the mouth. But in fact I am exactly wrong. When the (non-square) blade is adjusted the cutting edge will be parallel to the base of the plane, and (given a perfect frog) it will then be perpendicular to the mid-line of the plane (geometry). The problem I described occurs when you you over-lateral-adjust a square blade, which is silly. I think the rest of what I said is OK, though. BugBear. (who should think a little more) ---- Start of Message 58278 (thread 25208) ---- From: Chris Winter Date: 1999-02-23 16:19:00 Subject: RE: Norris Planes << hang on: if you want a REALLY close mouth, you can't use your lateral adjuster, since you'll just crash one side of the blade into the mouth, before you have achieved the movement required to adjust the depth >> While a full width shaving with a smoother is a fun thing to shoot for if you're bored and trying out your plane tuning skills, I'd be surprised if very many woodworkers make a point to achieve this? I sure don't. I use a slightly crowned profile I don't either and also use a crowned profile. I am fortunate to have several smoothers with each set-up differently. A Spiers is set to take about a 1/2 blade width cut - maybe less - in the center (when I can get the blade adjusted just right). A full width would actually be too wide for the present curly cherry swirls I'm working as the swirls aren't 2+ inches wide and I am approaching from different directions. A scraper is an option, but I much prefer the planed finish. I wouldn't want to try for a full width shaving with this plane with the mouth as tight as it is. The wood needs to be very flat or will not take any shavings on hollowed spots. If the blade were lowered, the mouth will jam on high spots causing wasted time in clearing the mouth and resetting. I loose much more time resetting than I do with a lesser width of cut. This plane is *made* for highly figured hardwoods that are already flat. All my other "pre-smoothers" have irons which are closer to parallel to the throat (I didn't say ground straight - I do it by hand and therefore very thankful for the lateral adjuster). I don't plunge into geometry or physics, though I appreciate the conversation. I more or less do what works for me and learn as I go. Maybe this post will be helpful for galoot in good standing - Larry Williams. I have his floats and they are really beautifully made (pumpin' out planes at a level similar to honesty in the White House). If you're working highly figured woods and you want a "planed finish", Larry's plane sounds like a good value compared to new offerings and British planes of yesteryear - most requiring shimming or thicker blades to perform best on the most highly figured woods. Good luck finding an old woodie capable of tissue thins on highly figured stuff (I keep looking). Then again, there's always sandpa$#^. I hope Larry can hold out long enough for my tool budget to be replenished after a new lid goes on the house this spring. Chris Winter ...who would also like to thank Graham Blackburn for his no nonsense instructional books. I am just completing a 'hole buncha dovetails en route to making a British style blanket chest as a wedding gift similar to one in his book. I really need to get away from these date sensitive projects (on the bright side - it's not as date sensitive as last year's crib - etiquette says I have up to a year on the chest...) ---- Start of Message 58348 (thread 25208) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-24 07:22:00 Subject: RE: Norris Planes > > I don't plunge into geometry or physics, though I appreciate the > conversation. I more or less do what works > for me and learn as I go. > I think this is (was) almost the point I was trying (evidently in an unclear way) to make. It is standard galootish practice (for some) to grind the base of the plane to a high degree of accuracy. This is held to be needed for the desired "2 thou" holy grail. But as far as I can work out, this only makes sense if several other parts of the plane are also just as accurate. But the standard plane tuning recomendations make little or no mention of this. Hence my question(s). bugBear. ---- Start of Message 58471 (thread 25208) ---- From: williams@i... (Larry Williams) Date: 1999-02-25 20:35:00 Subject: RE: Norris Planes Chris Winter and Ray T. Smith write: > Ray Smith replies > >> While a full width shaving with a smoother is a fun thing to shoot >>for if >>you're bored and trying out your plane tuning skills, I'd be surprised >>if very many woodworkers make a point to achieve this? >> I sure don't. I use a slightly crowned profile... > >I don't either and also use a crowned profile. ... >A Spiers is set to take about a 1/2 blade width cut - maybe less - in the >center (when I can get >the blade adjusted just right). ....I wouldn't want to try for a full width >shaving with >this plane with the mouth as tight as it is. The wood needs to be very flat >or will not take any >shavings on hollowed spots. If the blade were lowered, the mouth will jam on >high spots causing wasted time............ >Maybe this post will be helpful for galoot in good standing - Larry >Williams. I seem to be hopelessly behind in my e-mail and I'm sorry for the delay in responding. Because of things I've learned on this list, I've been forced to re- evaluate almost all of my working methods. A couple years ago Paul Petersen led me through a complete examination of my finish planing. Until then, I didn't even realize what a properly finish planed surface should look like. The surface should have a dull sheen with no burnished areas and every pore should be open and left clean. It's something I haven't been able to achieve with sanding. There are two reasons I want my finish plane to take a full width cut. First would be, as Don McConnell frequently points out, it's important to get from point A to point B with a minimum of effort and time. Secondly, while the planed surface is ready for the first coat of finish, many finishes require light sanding between coats for a proper bond. Each stroke or pass leaves a very slight (less than 1/1000") signature where it meets the previous pass. Even with the incredible sanding blocks we've found this signature becomes apparent when fine sanding between finish coats and can stand out more than I'd like. I just prefer to have as few plane signatures as possible on my work. Getting a full width shaving requires flat soles on a dedicated finish plane, a flat sharpening medium and a straight edge on the iron. Only the corners are very slightly rounded. I certainly wouldn't try to accomplish this kind of result with a general purpose smoothing plane nor would I use a finishing smooth plane for general purpose work. The finish smooth plane is probably the most expensive, most difficult to maintain and most difficult to set of bench planes rather you choose an infill, LN or wooden one. I'd use it only for its intended purpose but would demand a full width shaving from it. I think I'll stop right here or I'll end up trying to sell planes and that wasn't my purpose for writing. "Don't blame the movies. Movies don't create psychos, movies just make psychos more creative." ++++ End of thread 25208 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25209 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57892 (thread 25209) ---- From: "Scott E. Post" Date: 1999-02-18 01:20:00 Subject: Pocket knife kits Does anyone know a source for folding pocket knife kits? I've got some small scraps of the most *killer* cocobolo that man has every laid eyes on (left over from my just completed infill shoulder plane kit ). I'm normally pretty quick to dump my scrap in the fireplace, but these really cry out to be saved. What I'd really like is something where I only have to carve the wood for the handle and rivet it in place. I'd also be interested in other types of knives (chip carving, etc). ---- Start of Message 57902 (thread 25209) ---- From: lorng@w... (lorn gingrich) Date: 1999-02-18 02:15:00 Subject: Re: Pocket knife kits (snip of Scott Post asking about places to get a pocket knife "kit" to which he can rivet his remaining hunks o' tasty wood. . .) Another great source for knife blades, pocket knife "kits" just as Scott describes, and all manner of galootish knife making supplies is Jantz Supply. I think they're at http://www.jantzsupply.com on the web, and they're happy to send a free catalog. I'd give you the 800 number, but the catalog's under a pile or two in the shop. -Lorn Gingrich, Still in Albany, NY. No affiliation, etc, just a very satisfied customer. Careful, knife making can be a slippery slope, too. ---- Start of Message 57912 (thread 25209) ---- From: Michael Lindgren Date: 1999-02-18 03:07:00 Subject: Re: Pocket knife kits Hi folks, Jantz supply- 1-800-351-8900 for a catalog. It hasn't been that long since I got a catalog from them, and it may be free, but I somehow remember paying $4 for it, which always kind of bugs me. Anyway, it is a decent knife catalog, though a bit heavy on the "I need to kill a bear" type knife, and a bit light on the high carbon, (not stainless) kitchen knives I wanted. There are about 9 folding knife kits in my catalog, 6 single blade lockbacks and 3 3 blade folders. Prices range from $13-18 for the 3 blade, and $23-35 for the lockbacks. I ordered 4 "Russell" kitchen knives, which are considerably cheaper, plus a good supply of rivets for a delivered price less than $50. I have handled and given away 2 of them, with generally positive response. I thought they just needed handles put on, but there is enough meat on the tang that you can grind it a bit to get a handle profile more to your liking. Seemed to arrive plenty sharp, though not highly polished. Best regards, Mike Lindgren On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, lorn gingrich wrote: > (snip of Scott Post asking about places to get a pocket knife "kit" to > which he can rivet his remaining hunks o' tasty wood. . .) > > > Another great source for knife blades, pocket knife "kits" just as Scott > describes, and all manner of galootish knife making supplies is Jantz > Supply. I think they're at http://www.jantzsupply.com on the web, and > they're happy to send a free catalog. > I'd give you the 800 number, but the catalog's under a pile or two in > the shop. > ---- Start of Message 57913 (thread 25209) ---- From: Richard Danzey Date: 1999-02-18 04:27:00 Subject: Re: Pocket knife kits Mike, and all; Try http://www.cutlery.com for 'professional' cutlery at 5 star prices, unfortunately, also for other serious kitchen related stuff. I've gotten a bread knife from them by Forschner who is parent to Swiss Army Knife Victorinox. Not 100% 'purist' stuff, but I'm very happy with 'em. Don't recall seeing any Dexter or Chicago like my Dad once used as a meat cutter, but I'm sure those are available somewhere if desired. No connection, blah blah blah. Best wishes.... danz Michael Lindgren wrote: > > Hi folks, > > Jantz supply- 1-800-351-8900 for a catalog. It hasn't been > that long since I got a catalog from them, and it may be free, but I > somehow remember paying $4 for it, which always kind of bugs me. > Anyway, it is a decent knife catalog, though a bit heavy on the > "I need to kill a bear" type knife, and a bit light on the high carbon, > (not stainless) kitchen knives I wanted. There are about 9 folding knife > kits in my catalog, 6 single blade lockbacks and 3 3 blade folders. > Prices range from $13-18 for the 3 blade, and $23-35 for the lockbacks. > I ordered 4 "Russell" kitchen knives, which are considerably cheaper, > plus a good supply of rivets for a delivered price less than $50. > I have handled and given away 2 of them, with generally positive response. > I thought they just needed handles put on, but there is enough meat > on the tang that you can grind it a bit to get a handle profile more > to your liking. Seemed to arrive plenty sharp, though not highly > polished. > > Best regards, Mike Lindgren > > On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, lorn gingrich wrote: > > > (snip of Scott Post asking about places to get a pocket knife "kit" to > > which he can rivet his remaining hunks o' tasty wood. . .) > > > > > > Another great source for knife blades, pocket knife "kits" just as Scott > > describes, and all manner of galootish knife making supplies is Jantz > > Supply. I think they're at http://www.jantzsupply.com on the web, and > > they're happy to send a free catalog. > > I'd give you the 800 number, but the catalog's under a pile or two in > > the shop. > > > > -- ++++ End of thread 25209 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25210 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57899 (thread 25210) ---- From: The Boldts Date: 1999-02-18 01:52:00 Subject: Pocket knife kits Scott Post wrote: > Does anyone know a source for folding pocket knife kits? Try: Smokey Mountain Knife Works at: http://www.smkwknife.com/ BOBthe45guy ++++ End of thread 25210 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25211 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57904 (thread 25211) ---- From: "Lee T. Smith" Date: 1999-02-18 02:23:00 Subject: Obligatory bio Howdy all. I've been listening at the door for a couple of weeks, and thought I would step out on the porch. My name is Lee Smith, and I am in the process of making a career change from merchant ship's officer(2nd mate), which I have done since 1986, to the computer world; just got my A+ cerification, in fact. I really don't have any background in woodworking, but am working at it(learning by trial and error). I have a couple of planes I've lapped out and SS'd(TM), but that and some cheap chisels(also SS'd(TM)) and Japanese style saws are about the extent of my *current* set of old tools(I expect the set will grow). Being that I live in West Florida, from what I've been hearing, the used old tool pickings maybe aren't as good as I might like. I hope that you all don't mind hearing lots of questions about how to do stuff. Lord knows I'm not very shy about exposing my ignorence; and boy, do I have a lot to expose! Looking forward to communing with ya'll on woodworking. Lee ++++ End of thread 25211 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25212 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57909 (thread 25212) ---- From: "David Barnett" Date: 1999-02-18 03:26:00 Subject: Re: Crane's this Saturday? Ciro de la Vega wrote: >Just wondering who was going to Nashua this Saturday for Crane's Cabin >Fever Auction. This'll be my first trip to a Crane auction since >becoming a card-carrying, Steath-cap-wearing, member of Galooteria, and >I was hoping to make some acquaintances. Considering it. It'd be my first auction, or for that matter, tool sale of any kind. But unlike you, the snow'll stop me. David Barnett Northampton, in the hinterlands of Western Mass. ++++ End of thread 25212 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25213 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57910 (thread 25213) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-02-18 03:33:00 Subject: MSC Catalog now on CD-ROM Now here's something that makes sense. I've been reluctant to update my MSC catalog (1996, I believe) due to the extreme size of the thing. It just seemed too much of a waste of paper for the few purchases I might make. Now I discover that it's availabe on CD-ROM, for free as before. You can order one at : http://www.mscdirect.com/cdrom/default.htm For those that haven't heard of MSC, it's a great place for parts to make your own tools, including tool steel, hardware, knobs, grinding supplies, etc, etc. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 59194 (thread 25213) ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1999-03-08 22:59:00 Subject: Re: MSC Catalog now on CD-ROM ** Reply to note from Paul Pedersen Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:33:34 -0500 > > > Now here's something that makes sense. I've been reluctant > to update my MSC catalog (1996, I believe) due to the extreme > size of the thing. It just seemed too much of a waste of > paper for the few purchases I might make. > > Now I discover that it's availabe on CD-ROM, for free as > before. You can order one at : > > http://www.mscdirect.com/cdrom/default.htm I received my copy a week ago. Much easier to use than the book. The one drawback I have found is that I cannot get my lifting exercise any more. Oh yes, you will have to find other ways to get a hernia. ernie fisch ++++ End of thread 25213 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25214 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57914 (thread 25214) ---- From: Wes Groot Date: 1999-02-18 06:45:00 Subject: Re: A Test Baloon: another option?? How about a silkscreen heat transfer of the Galoot logo on a "pocket sized" scale? We could buy it and everyone would be able to apply it using an iron, to the front of whatever shirt they wanted. I practically *live* in denim shirts, and would really like to sport a Galoot logo on at least one of them. I'm sure that John has a source, but if not, I can talk to a buddy of mine about making up a mess of 'em for us. It's not as elegant a solution as embroidery, but economical and versatile! Just thinkin', wes ---- Start of Message 57932 (thread 25214) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-02-18 15:50:00 Subject: Re: A Test Baloon: another option?? At 10:45 PM -0800 2/17/99, Wes Groot wrote: > How about a silkscreen heat transfer of the Galoot logo on a >"pocket sized" scale? We could buy it and everyone would be able to >apply it using an iron, to the front of whatever shirt they wanted. I think this would be a wunnerful alternative. SWMBO made me a denim shop apron (visible in the Galoot-A-Vision video of oh so long ago) that I'd like to put the Galoot logo on, like the "bumper sticker" Dennis made up that I imagine are mostly pinned to shop walls, like mine is. Wes could put his on a shirt. Ken could put it on his Parka. Nuno could put it on his tank top, to wear to the beach. Paddy could iron one onto his rubber flip-flops. Paul Aud could make them think a new fraternity had been created. And like that. Most of us already have something we could put this on, and it probably wouldn't cost 25 bucks. Maybe two versions, one light and one dark, to put on contrasting material, would meet the market. Tom Holloway, whose daughter gave him a set of coveralls for Xmas with "Tom the Galoot" above one pocket and "There's no tool like an old tool" above the other pocket, embroidered in script at the Aramark uniform factory, where her boyfriend works and can get special orders done up. ---- Start of Message 57935 (thread 25214) ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1999-02-18 16:32:00 Subject: Re: A Test Baloon: another option?? Tom Holloway wrote: > > At 10:45 PM -0800 2/17/99, Wes Groot wrote: > > How about a silkscreen heat transfer of the Galoot logo on a > >"pocket sized" scale? We could buy it and everyone would be able to > >apply it using an iron, to the front of whatever shirt they wanted. Shall we go the next step and get some wash off tattoos? Unless someone wants to volunteer to be the first to get a real tattoo. :-) Ed, in Cincinnati, who despite the new acceptability likes his skin the way it is. ---- Start of Message 57941 (thread 25214) ---- From: "Mike DeLong" Date: 1999-02-18 19:24:00 Subject: RE: A Test Baloon: another option?? > At 10:45 PM -0800 2/17/99, Wes Groot wrote: > How about a silkscreen heat transfer of the Galoot logo on a > "pocket sized" scale? We could buy it and everyone would be able to > apply it using an iron, to the front of whatever shirt they wanted. and then Tom Holloway wrote: > I think this would be a wunnerful alternative. SWMBO made me a > denim shop apron (visible in the Galoot-A-Vision video of oh > so long ago)that I'd like to put the Galoot logo on, snip.... I can definitely salute this idea. I don't like knit shirts. Let's just say they don't flatter me. The SWMBO has made some killer shop aprons in the past so this sounds like a good idea to me. and then Tom closed with: > whose daughter gave him a set of coveralls for Xmas with "Tom > the Galoot" above one pocket and "There's no tool like an old > tool" above the other pocket, embroidered in script at the > Aramark uniform factory, where her boyfriend works and can get > special orders done up. WOW! Now there's a first class driveby GLOAT! Congratulations Tom. I may just send my grown kids (well, at least their old enough to be considered grown) a copy of your email as a Father's Day hint. Mike ------------------------------ Mike DeLong Southern Methodist University Director of Investment Systems ---- Start of Message 57942 (thread 25214) ---- From: Chris Winter Date: 1999-02-18 19:33:00 Subject: RE: A Test Baloon: another option?? Tom Holloway wrote about his shirt: > "There's no tool like an old tool" How about this for the back of a shirt. "And there's no fool like an old tool fool..." Chris ++++ End of thread 25214 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25215 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57915 (thread 25215) ---- From: Howard Slack Date: 1999-02-18 05:49:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors > Andrew pines for a wooden floor: > > > However, I've heard people complain about working on a concrete > > floor. Sure, a sprung wooden floor would be ideal, but in a > > garage it's not practical. I used to work in a rotogravure printing plant where the floors were made of wood pieces cut off in short pieces and laid down like tiles, with end grain facing up. This was easy to repair, as they were not glued in place, or nailed. I seem to recall it looking like 2x4 sections. I am trying to remember the reasoning for this, and this is what I am coming up with: 1. much easier to repair than concrete 2. easier on feet than concrete 3. would also allow the use of cheap softwood lumber (2x4s) without the growth-ring breakdown that would inevitably occur if you laid them out flat 4. would probably stay a lot flatter over time than a normal wood floor 5. would be pretty labor-intensive to build initially, and especially to get it flat without unevenness. 6. would not damage dropped tools Would there be any advantage for fork-lifts? It seems you would have to have a very stable and flat sub floor, so it is probably not a way to save money on the initial build. Does anyone know any more about this kind of floor? I am thinking of putting up a shop, and while this kind of floor is intriguing, I don't know that the advantages are greater than the costs. I would still be interested in anyone else's input. Howard Slack ---- Start of Message 57959 (thread 25215) ---- From: BohlB@a... Date: 1999-02-19 00:00:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors In a message dated 2/17/99 11:51:10 PM Central Standard Time, hnslack@i... writes: > I used to work in a rotogravure printing plant where the floors were > made of wood pieces cut off in short pieces and laid down like tiles, > with end grain facing up. This was easy to repair, as they were not > glued in place, or nailed. I seem to recall it looking like 2x4 > sections. > > I am trying to remember the reasoning for this, and this is what I am > coming up with: > 1. much easier to repair than concrete > 2. easier on feet than concrete > 3. would also allow the use of cheap softwood lumber (2x4s) without the > growth-ring breakdown that would inevitably occur if you laid them out > flat > 4. would probably stay a lot flatter over time than a normal wood floor > 5. would be pretty labor-intensive to build initially, and especially to > get it flat without unevenness. > 6. would not damage dropped tools > When I was at P&W they had this type of floor in the machine shop areas. I was told that it was to soak up fluids. Bill Bohl ---- Start of Message 57963 (thread 25215) ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 1999-02-19 00:19:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors In a message dated 2/18/99 4:06:36 PM, you wrote: << > I used to work in a rotogravure printing plant where the floors were > made of wood pieces cut off in short pieces and laid down like tiles, > with end grain facing up. >> We built an artist's studio for my brother that used this type of floor. We used Douglas fir and had the pieces cut on a cut-off saw and then run through a thickness planer (probably hard on the knives). The tiles were held down with a mastic. Be sure to leave about 1/2" at each edge. The surface was finish sanded and the poly-urethaned. It made an exceptionally rugged floor. The negative is it was sensitive to standing water, whether accidental, as in a spill, or avoidable, as in a broken window. I think a high quality vinyl would have been better for the specific application mentioned. ---- Start of Message 57967 (thread 25215) ---- From: Datoolfool@a... Date: 1999-02-19 01:05:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors I saw this type of flooring advertised in the Thomas Catolog (Tomcat). It is a standard industrial floor. Get a Tomcat and with a few calls you could have all the info. Don ---- Start of Message 57995 (thread 25215) ---- From: "EFISHER.US.ORACLE.COM" Date: 1999-02-18 16:31:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors > I used to work in a rotogravure printing plant where the floors were > made of wood pieces cut off in short pieces and laid down like tiles, > with end grain facing up. This was easy to repair, as they were not > glued in place, or nailed. I seem to recall it looking like 2x4 > sections. When I was at the Denver Post, they were still using hot metal printing methods and had a floor like this. They said it was very durable under the metal wheels of the carts used for pushing around pigs and galleys. Said pigs and galleys being cast lead, you can imagine the weight on the floor and the wear imparted from the metal wheels on the carts. ed ---- Start of Message 57996 (thread 25215) ---- From: b2d@e... (Duke of URLs) Date: 1999-02-19 18:41:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors The first "real big" cabinet shop I worked at had the floor done with 4 X 4 posts set on end. Came in real handy because we did work for banks and some of the teller lines would be sixty feet long. You could nail down plates, level your die front and go from there. There is a high end flooring company in Chicago currently doing these for residences. http://www.birgerjuell.com/cobblewood.htm A few years back The Bobster did one of these and I remember he put it down with a regular old mastic and went back and grouted with sawdust mixed with a finish material binder like varnish or shellac. I honestly don't think the floor was any thicker than 1" maybe even thinner. Keith Bohn ---- Start of Message 58013 (thread 25215) ---- From: "Tom Dugan" Date: 1999-02-19 15:01:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors Ed sez - > When I was at the Denver Post, they were still using hot metal printing > methods and had a floor like this. They said it was very durable > under the metal wheels of the carts used for pushing around pigs and galleys. > Said pigs and galleys being cast lead, you can imagine the weight on the floor > and the wear imparted from the metal wheels on the carts. > The causeway to Fort Macon (Beaufort NC) is paved with endgrain yellow pine - 12X12ish. Supposedly the most durable paver for all the artillery pieces going over. I wonder how they keep 'em from splitting? There's clearly pith in there. Tom Dugan Still Living in Lower Marlboro ---- Start of Message 58016 (thread 25215) ---- From: Ed_Balko@E... Date: 1999-02-19 15:19:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors Tom wrote "The causeway to Fort Macon (Beaufort NC) is paved with endgrain yellow pine - 12X12ish. Supposedly the most durable paver for all the artillery pieces going over. I wonder how they keep 'em from splitting? There's clearly pith in there. " Could one of the reasons for choosing yellow pine be to have a non-sparking surface? I recollect that military engineers of that era went to considerable lengths to avoid sparks whee gunpowder would be handled - for obvious reason. Ed Balko Middletown, NJ Wondering where Ester will carry her cigars if the polo shirts have no pockets ---- Start of Message 58041 (thread 25215) ---- From: eoh@k... Date: 1999-02-19 15:29:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors From: Esther Heller Ed asked: Wondering where Ester will carry her cigars if the polo shirts have no pockets. Esther doesn't do cigars (although I admit to a few cigar tubes, they are handy ways to hold coping or fretsaw blades, or crochet hooks...) I did try soaking shredded cigars in ammonia following some old-timey recepe for a curly maple finish once, but couldn't tell the dif from plain orange shellac after the treated and control samples were finished. Galoot hint: those metal kits for making your own hadscrews are handy things to try out different woods and finishes in small quantities. Wood had an article on using a sandwich contruction to avoid having to drill a buch of holes at a 15 degree angle on a drill press that make it a good first project in cutting and gluing small objects. You do want to make your own handle with a good ferrule though, the kit handles shred under use. Esther eoh@k... ---- Start of Message 58057 (thread 25215) ---- From: "Flowers, Curt" Date: 1999-02-19 21:40:00 Subject: RE: Workshop floors > Howard Slack posted: > > Andrew pines for a wooden floor: > > > > > However, I've heard people complain about working on a concrete > > > floor. Sure, a sprung wooden floor would be ideal, but in a > > > garage it's not practical. > I used to work in a rotogravure printing plant where the floors were > made of wood pieces cut off in short pieces and laid down like tiles, > with end grain facing up. This was easy to repair, as they were not > glued in place, or nailed. I seem to recall it looking like 2x4 > sections. > > I am trying to remember the reasoning for this, ...... > Curt knows this: I recently toured the Caterpillar plant in Decatur, IL (where they make the wold's biggest truck, by the way. We missed seeing it cuz they shipped it a few days before) Anyway, the floors in many of the work areas were this endgrain 2x4 stuff. They tour guide's reason: When and if a big hunk of something is dropped, it would badly shatter a concrete floor, but just destroys a few of the wood pieces which are easy to replace. Much cheaper. Curt Flowers, central Illinois ---- Start of Message 58241 (thread 25215) ---- From: Richard Danzey Date: 1999-02-23 03:36:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors Howard Slack wrote: > > > Andrew pines for a wooden floor: > > > > > However, I've heard people complain about working on a concrete > > > floor. Sure, a sprung wooden floor would be ideal, but in a > > > garage it's not practical. > I used to work in a rotogravure printing plant where the floors were > made of wood pieces cut off in short pieces and laid down like tiles, > with end grain facing up. This was easy to repair, as they were not > glued in place, or nailed. I seem to recall it looking like 2x4 > sections. > > I am trying to remember the reasoning for this, and this is what I am > coming up with: > 1. much easier to repair than concrete > 2. easier on feet than concrete > 3. would also allow the use of cheap softwood lumber (2x4s) without the > growth-ring breakdown that would inevitably occur if you laid them out > flat > 4. would probably stay a lot flatter over time than a normal wood floor > 5. would be pretty labor-intensive to build initially, and especially to > get it flat without unevenness. > 6. would not damage dropped tools > > Would there be any advantage for fork-lifts? > > It seems you would have to have a very stable and flat sub floor, so it > is probably not a way to save money on the initial build. > > Does anyone know any more about this kind of floor? I am thinking of > putting up a shop, and while this kind of floor is intriguing, I don't > know that the advantages are greater than the costs. I would still be > interested in anyone else's input. > > Howard Slack > > -- Howard; With every comment made about these endgrain style wooden floors I'm becoming more interested. In my shop, which has a well prepared and carefully poured and finished slab, I made the mistake of forming a 'ramp' portion inside the door. It was to ease the transistion of equipment from the outside drive into the building. So despite careful attention to other parts of the floor to make it flat, I deliberately and stupidly made parts of the floor slope. It occurs to me that using longer wooden blocks carefully shaped to be comply with the sloping floor but still be vertical relative to blocks laid on the flat/horizontal portions of the floor and then machined even with the top surface of the rest of the floor, I should be able to rectify this error of judgement and make it all flat and smooth. Not cheap, not easy, maybe not even worth the effort. But I am seriously conbsidering it. What really prompted me to write, though, was that construction sites where stud frame construction is practiced often generate vast piles of 'useless' short pieces of 2X4s. Same for plants that panelize buildings for erection elsewhere. Also there are, predictably, offcuts from the treated 4X6 and 6X6 treated posts used in pole buildings. These could speed up the process of laying your 'parquet' shop floor. Suitable enterprise could probably net a lot of free building material which is essentially scrap that costs contractors and others money to dispose of. Please summarize the comments for those of us on the list interested in being kinder to our feet. Thanks and best wishes.... danz ---- Start of Message 58263 (thread 25215) ---- From: Darrell LaRue Date: 1999-02-23 13:48:00 Subject: Re: Workshop Floors Galoots, [snip lots of talk about endgrain parquet wooden floors] I saw an interseting floor about a year and a half ago... It's at the MacLachlan Woodworking Museum near Kingston Ontario. The floor consists of rounds of various sizes and species of logs laid out and about a ton of epoxy poured over it to fill in the gaps and level the surface. Dunno how well such a thing would stand up over time, but it sure looks cool. Oldtool content: The museum has 3000 woodies. Darrell and I do hope that at least a few Galoots will make it to the EAIA meet in Ottawa this June... a visit to this museum will be one of the events. ---- Start of Message 58270 (thread 25215) ---- From: David Tuttle Date: 1999-02-23 15:04:00 Subject: Re: Workshop Floors The endgrain Idea may be great, but being one who runs a business and has to look if the cost and time can some how justify itself... I think FWW a year ago had a workshop with Painted particle board over radiant heat. Fast, inexpensive, and warm! I phoned the fellow who wrote the article and he is quite pleased with it. On cement, I stand on it all day! I have Redwing boots with expensive orthotics and in front of my bench I have an anti fatigue mat. My shop is industrial space and the floor had blue brake crap on it and I have added drops of lacquer and stain (I spilled 1/2 gal of custom mix stain at $80 a gal, Ouch!). other than acid not much will effect the cement and it holds my forklifted into position tailed apprentices. All that to say I think the endgrain would be the most pleasing and durable but time and money! Tutt-Tutt for Now David Tuttle: tuttle@e... Brantford, ON Canada Voice: (519) 754-1138 ---- Start of Message 58274 (thread 25215) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-02-23 15:15:00 Subject: Re: Workshop floors Richard Danzey wrote: > > Howard Slack wrote: > > > I used to work in a rotogravure printing plant where the floors were > > made of wood pieces cut off in short pieces and laid down like tiles, > > with end grain facing up. This was easy to repair, as they were not > > glued in place, or nailed. I seem to recall it looking like 2x4 > I saw this type of floor used on some home reno show on TV years ago (This old house maybe?). If I remember correctly some company bought an old factory or warehouse and whe they moved in they found thousands of these peices of wood that looked like a 1 inch slice of the end of a 2 x 4. They ended up chamfering the edges on one side and useing it as flooring. The method of installation was simple. They are stuck down with mastic (NO water based stuff). The grout was pretty interesting, they used a mix of sawdust and orange shellac. I think they did a final finish of polyurethane. If you live need a subdivision in progress you should be able to get all the 2x4 off cuts you can handle for free. Dan ---- Start of Message 58604 (thread 25215) ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1999-02-27 22:52:00 Subject: Re: Workshop Floors ** Reply to note from Darrell LaRue Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:48:41 -0500 > > Ontario. The floor consists of rounds of various sizes > and species of logs laid out and about a ton of epoxy > poured over it to fill in the gaps and level the surface. > Dunno how well such a thing would stand up over time, but > it sure looks cool. Railroads (and I assume other heavy industries) used to use endgrain floors like this. The chunks of wood were held in place with tar poured in around them. Obviously very rugged although I would hate to drop a good tool on it. Railroad tools are not delicate and the unsanitary nature of the floor would never be noticed in a roundhouse. old tool content: what is more galootish than a steam engine, ok a water wheel. ernie fisch ++++ End of thread 25215 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25216 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57917 (thread 25216) ---- From: ecoyle@c... (eric coyle) Date: 1999-02-18 07:23:00 Subject: maybe it's just me...... GG's. The last two digests had me rollin around laughin. Just primo stuff. :The "user" headhunters knife "This looks worse than last time" the "blood on the floor" stories "just cause the iron is black doesn't mean it's not hot" As FMM monday has been temporarily redistributed, I'd suggest making the first monday "humor day", but that would make such pleasantry quite too predicatble. Many thanks for the good belly laughs. Cowtown Eric ++++ End of thread 25216 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25217 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57922 (thread 25217) ---- From: "EFISHER.US.ORACLE.COM" Date: 1999-02-18 04:06:00 Subject: Nitric Acid? Got a call the other day from my wife's Grandfather. Where do you find nitric acid? In small enough quantities that you don't get the ATF looking over your shoulder that is. ed ++++ End of thread 25217 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25218 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57930 (thread 25218) ---- From: "Tom Dugan" Date: 1999-02-18 15:25:00 Subject: Notice: DC Area classes at ASF Mail*Hub: QMAILGW1 Notice: DC Area classes at ASF Those of you in the area may want to check out the classes listed below. There are still spaces available for the broze casting class this weekend. I've taken this class with Glenn, and would recommend it to anyone. Glenn is a dentist in the DC area, but (IIRC) was a gunsmith at Colonial Williamsburg, back when they still had gunsmiths. Joe Youcha is Director of the Seaport Foundation, and a very accomplished boatbuilder and teacher. I haven't taken either of these two classes, but have learned a lot from others he has taught. Disclaimer - I *am* affiliated with the ASF as a member and volunteer. It's good people doing good work, and you'll definitely get your money's worth. But if you're not careful, you'll get bitten by the boatbuilding bug! (Insert evil laughter here.) BTW, you won't be limited to boat hardware in the bronze casting class. Most of the first day is spent in basics and how to make patterns. Folks are free to make any (reasonably sized) pattern they want. I'm thinking about a plane body this time.... Another thing. If you're going to take the class, go ahead and become a member. It's not that much more moolah. Tom Dugan Still Living in Lower Marlboro (And making the long commute to Alexandria for the boat shop.) =============================================================== ALEXANDRIA SEAPORT FOUNDATION Boat Building Classes Spring 1999 Bronze Casting --February 20 and 21 - 9am to 5pm both days Good traditional small boat hardware is difficult to find. This class will prepare a pattern for bronze hardware, make the sand molds, fire up the furnace, melt the bronze, cast the pieces, and finish them. Students participate in the entire process, from start to finish, and take home some hardware. This class will be taught by Glenn McIntyre. Tuition: $85 ASF members $100 non-members Plane Making Workshop --March 20 and 21 -- 9am to 5pm both days Using tools that you have built yourself is a special pleasure. Wooden boat building requires many tools not available in the hardware store. Wooden planes have to be the most beautiful of these. This weekend workshop will teach several different ways of constructing custom planes. Design theory, construction methods and wood choice will all be covered. Joe Youcha will be teaching this class. Tuition: $85 ASF members $100 non-members Lofting Class -- April 17 and 18 -- 9am to 5pm both days Come loft a beautiful, traditionally designed, round bottomed boat. Given the 1.5 inch to 1 foot scale plans, we'll lay out a full size working drawing of the boat. From this we'll be able to make molds and backbone patterns and bevels necessary to start building. You'll learn what all the lines mean and how they interact. Joe Youcha will be teaching this class. Tuition $85 ASF members $100 non-members For more information, call 703-549-7078 or write: Alexandria Seaport Foundation 1000 S. Lee Street Jones Point Park Alexandria VA 22314 ++++ End of thread 25218 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25219 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57931 (thread 25219) ---- From: "John L. Odom" Date: 1999-02-18 15:36:00 Subject: web site Esteemed GALOOTS: Check out this web site:http://www.jinjapan.org./nipponia/cont.html John Odom in Ooltewah, TN ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ++++ End of thread 25219 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25220 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57933 (thread 25220) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-02-18 15:57:00 Subject: WTB: #55 pieces Yeah, I bit. What a contraption. This one in a neat two-tiered user made box, with the plane in the upper part and a drawer in the bottom for 4 boxes of cutters, all 55 of them, plus one extra. SW era. After sorting it all out and comparing what's there to the blowup parts diagram (in Tom Witte's 1985 reprint of the 1921 owner's manual, included), I am missing: 1) One of the teeny weeny screws that hold the nickers to the skates. The special #55 double-ended nickers are present, just one of the screws MIA. (The analogous screws on the #45 are *way* too big, doncha know, as are the ones off the #78). 2) The thumb screw (and washer) that secures the slitter and depth stop to the right rear of the main body. This *is* the same as on the #45, so either would do. 3) One of the short rods. You know, 4 7/16" long by "a hair more" than 3/8" diameter. These are also interchangeable with the short rods on the #45. Don't plan to use it much, but I'd like to complete the kit. If you can help me find any of these parts, I'd be grateful. I can go cash, but I also have maybe 15 or so extra cutters for the #45 (which fit the #55), mostly straight plow blades and a few beaders, of various widths, that I could give up in trade, if you're looking to complete a set of your own. TIA Tom Holloway, near Ithaca, NY ++++ End of thread 25220 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25221 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57934 (thread 25221) ---- From: "Peterson, Samuel L." Date: 1999-02-18 16:11:00 Subject: RE: Safty First I like to wear my steel toed boots in the shop. This came about from my "Hewing phase". I had gotten the whole assortment of broadaxes, and adzes and started reading about these processes. There were plenty of warnings, but what did it for me was Roy Underhill. In one of his books, there is a picture that goes along with the description of using an Adze. His shoe has a slice across the front toe. At that point I ran, not walked to get some steel toed boots. When I use a handsaw (I'm a rightie), I like to wear a leather glove on my left hand. One time I was starting a kerf with a Stanley Sharksaw and the saw jumped out of the cut and did a Veg-O-Matic to my left hand. What a mess! I could've been a spokesman for Band-Aid! ---- Start of Message 57936 (thread 25221) ---- From: Chris Winter Date: 1999-02-18 16:33:00 Subject: RE: Safty First Samuel writes: >I was starting a kerf with a Stanley Sharksaw and the >saw jumped out of the cut and did a Veg-O-Matic to my left hand. Did the same thing last night but with no damage - your saw is too sharp . Chris Winter .....who can't seem to get a cheesy late model Norris (3/16" iron) and wide mouth to tear out nearly as well as my Stanley.... ---- Start of Message 57947 (thread 25221) ---- From: Bill Neely Date: 1999-02-18 22:14:00 Subject: Re: Safty First You've only shredded the back of your thumb once? Bill (Slow on the uptake) Neely "Peterson, Samuel L." wrote: > > When I use a handsaw (I'm a rightie), I like to wear a leather glove on my > left hand. One time I was starting a kerf with a Stanley Sharksaw and the > saw jumped out of the cut and did a Veg-O-Matic to my left hand. What a > mess! I could've been a spokesman for Band-Aid! > > -- > +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ > +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ ---- Start of Message 57949 (thread 25221) ---- From: Richard Danzey Date: 1999-02-18 22:44:00 Subject: Re: Safty First My two centavos: I always thought steel toed shoes/boots were a good idea. So many folks pooh poohed it with comments about how the steel insert could be crushed, trapping or removing toes. It may be true; however if the weight or force is that severe you will crush or lose them anyway. If the force or weight is not that severe you may escape injury altogether, but without the steel inserts you will still be injured. I didn't like how cold they helped my feet get, but the bargain was still in my favor.... danz, still hangin' on by his toes "Peterson, Samuel L." wrote: > > I like to wear my steel toed boots in the shop. This came about from my > "Hewing phase". I had gotten the whole assortment of broadaxes, and adzes > and started reading about these processes. There were plenty of warnings, > but what did it for me was Roy Underhill. In one of his books, there is a > picture that goes along with the description of using an Adze. His shoe has > a slice across the front toe. At that point I ran, not walked to get some > steel toed boots. > > When I use a handsaw (I'm a rightie), I like to wear a leather glove on my > left hand. One time I was starting a kerf with a Stanley Sharksaw and the > saw jumped out of the cut and did a Veg-O-Matic to my left hand. What a > mess! I could've been a spokesman for Band-Aid! > > -- ++++ End of thread 25221 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25222 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57938 (thread 25222) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 1999-02-18 17:18:00 Subject: H. Chapin date range GGs- I don't have any suitable reference works handy here, but I need to answer a private query about when Hermon Chapin was building planes. If you have (probably) Roberts' book handy, could you refresh my memory? Thanks, Ken Ken Greenberg IT #321; Blue Galoot #82 400 Los Gatos Blvd., Los Gatos, CA 95032 http://www.calast.com/ken/Personal/wood.htm ++++ End of thread 25222 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25223 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57943 (thread 25223) ---- From: dhp1@j... Date: 1999-02-18 20:12:00 Subject: Help dating backsaw Hello Wise Ones: I picked up a nice 8" brass backed saw at the recent SWTCA "Groundhog Day" tool meet in Bentonville, AR. (Thanks, Lloyd!) Now, I'd like to know how old it is. It is marked thusly: GEO D. CLEGG 35 UXBRIDGE ROAD W and, there is an interesting logo consisting of three feminine-looking legs coming out from a central point, with the letters J T. So, this is Sheffield, right? What years did Mr. Clegg make saws under his own name? (not in partnership, cuz I see Bob Brode has a Clegg and Barton saw soon to be for sale) TIA David Pickle Tulsa, OK BTW, I wonder why they hold it the day before Valentines day and call it the Groundhog Day tool meet? Seems like there ought to be another connection: Valentines Day... Sweetheart... Get it? ---- Start of Message 57944 (thread 25223) ---- From: elschaffer@j... Date: 1999-02-18 20:53:00 Subject: Re: Help dating backsaw Yes, would assume it's Sheffield because Clegg & Barton are. I know of no record of Geo Clegg alone, however. Clegg & Barton operated -1879-1881- per Ken Roberts tome on English Woodworking Tools. Could be their saw model? --ErvSawwwwwwwz On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:12:22 -0600 dhp1@j... writes: >Hello Wise Ones: > >I picked up a nice 8" brass backed saw at the recent SWTCA "Groundhog >Day" tool meet It is marked thusly: > GEO D. CLEGG > 35 UXBRIDGE ROAD W > >and, there is an interesting logo consisting of three feminine-looking >legs coming out from >a central point, with the letters J T. David Pickle >Tulsa, OK > ---- Start of Message 58021 (thread 25223) ---- From: bob2@p... (Bob Brode) Date: 1999-02-19 16:19:00 Subject: Re: Help dating backsaw David Pickle: > I picked up a nice 8" brass backed saw at the recent SWTCA "Groundhog > Day" tool meet in Bentonville, AR... Now, I'd like to > know how old it is. It is marked thusly: > > GEO D. CLEGG 35 UXBRIDGE ROAD W > > and, there is an interesting logo consisting of three feminine-looking > legs coming out from a central point, with the letters J T. > > So, this is Sheffield, right? What years did Mr. Clegg make saws under > his own name? (not in partnership... I've often found "British Plane Makers" to be helpful in identifying non-plane tools, including saws. They list this company as a London tool dealer with a number of branches, the Uxbridge Rd. one operating from 1918 until after WWII. Apparently no connection with Clegg & Barton, the Sheffield tool makers, who were in business c. 1879-1900+ according to Roberts' Sheffield tools book. The "J T" and triskelion trademark suggest the saw was actually made by the Sheffield company Joseph Tyzack & Son. They're not listed in Roberts; since he stops at 1900, I assume they started up very soon after that, as the few other things I've seen with the J. Tyzack name have a late 19th C. look. (David, does this saw have split nuts? Open handle?) Bob Brode ---- Start of Message 58037 (thread 25223) ---- From: dhp1@j... Date: 1999-02-19 18:47:00 Subject: Re: Help dating backsaw I Asked: >> I picked up a nice 8" brass backed saw at the recent SWTCA >"Groundhog >> Day" tool meet in Bentonville, AR... Now, I'd like to >> know how old it is. It is marked thusly: >> >> GEO D. CLEGG 35 UXBRIDGE ROAD W >> >> and, there is an interesting logo consisting of three >feminine-looking >> legs coming out from a central point, with the letters J T. >> >> So, this is Sheffield, right? What years did Mr. Clegg make saws? and Bob answered: >I've often found "British Plane Makers" to be helpful in identifying >non-plane tools, including saws. They list this company as a London >tool dealer with a number of branches, the Uxbridge Rd. one operating >from 1918 until after WWII. Apparently no connection with Clegg & >Barton, the Sheffield tool makers, who were in business c. 1879-1900+ >according to Roberts' Sheffield tools book. > >The "J T" and triskelion trademark suggest the saw was actually made >by >the Sheffield company Joseph Tyzack & Son. They're not listed in >Roberts; since he stops at 1900, I assume they started up very soon >after that, as the few other things I've seen with the J. Tyzack name >have a late 19th C. look. (David, does this saw have split nuts? >Open >handle?) > Yes, it has split nuts and an open handle. It looks to my amateur eye to have the late 19th C. look. Maybe it was sold in the Uxbridge Road shop soon after it opened in 1918? At any rate it is a nice saw. And, as I found out last night, a durable one. I was using it, not to cut dovetails or anything important, but simply to shorten the legs on a footstool. (The saw is filed crosscut) It has little set, so it binded (bound?) pretty bad in it's kerf. I let go of the handle with it stuck in the kerf, and IT CRASHED TO THE FLOOR! YIKES! Thankfully there was no damage. I just took a deep breath and vowed to never let that happen again! BTW, thanks to Bob and Erv for their answers. David Pickle living and learning in Tulsa, OK ++++ End of thread 25223 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25224 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57945 (thread 25224) ---- From: "Brent D. Beach" Date: 1999-02-18 21:39:00 Subject: Disston "Ship Pattern" Saws In response to an earlier post about a small bladed saw that might be a #12, Brian Pennington suggested a Ship Pattern Saw. When removing the handle to check if someone had cut down a larger blade (it looks original, not user modified) I noticed again that the former owner had stamped his name across the back of the handle. When adding Brian's note about Ship Pattern saws to my file the two finally came together in my mind. The old galoot from whom I bought this saw and several other tools worked in a ship yard (his entire working career?). I spent some time with him going through his tools and selecting those that were not too badly beaten up. As usual in such situations, got a lot of stories along with the tools. I also got some wood he had liberated from work. He apparently made wood bottomed mine sweepers during the second world war. He sold me 4 or 5 blocks of lignum vitae shaped as part of a bushing - slightly rounded. Went back to Ralph Brendler's site and his 1914 catalog, and it contains the following description of Ship Pattern saws: This pattern of Saw was especially designed for ship carpenters and others whose work required the use of a narrow width blade. Many carpenters prefer it to the wider styles. It is also suitable for cabinet makers, pattern makers, and any work where a narrow saw is desirable. Henry Disston & Sons have made these narrow pattern saws since 1850. Ship Carpenters' Saws are manufactured in all Disston patterns at the same prices as the regular saw. The Regular Ship Carpenters' Saws are made 6-1/2 inches wide at butt and 1-1/2 inches at point for 26 inch, and other sizes in proportion to their length. So, while the blade shape (extends under the hand hole) and the handle material (possibly rosewood) are still unexpected in a #12, at least the size is explained. Brent Brent Beach, Victoria, BC, CA ++++ End of thread 25224 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25225 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57946 (thread 25225) ---- From: "Tom Dugan" Date: 1999-02-18 21:39:00 Subject: WTB - one eensy little bit [A WTB while no one's lookin' ;^) ] ...Be on the lookout for an auger bit with the following printed on its shank: 4/16 Russell Jennings )---------( | STANLEY | )---------( No.100 RJ Sheffield England Should you encounter one in minty or less-than-minty condition, give me a shout. I can also trade a G or G+ #4 RJ with a "Russell Jennings" stamp for the above. Thanks in advance, Tom Dugan Still Living in Lower Marlboro (That's Maryland, if you were wondering.) ++++ End of thread 25225 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25226 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57948 (thread 25226) ---- From: "Ron Harper" Date: 1999-02-18 22:12:00 Subject: HEY MIKE Mike I am having some isp problems. Did I miss a note from you about my plane kit? Ron ++++ End of thread 25226 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25227 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57951 (thread 25227) ---- From: "Russell, Lanny J" Date: 1999-02-18 23:00:00 Subject: RE:Cecil Pierce Book Mike & Jim & Ed wondered about Cecil's book. >Has anyone any information on a book written by Cecil Pierce entitled > "50 Years a Planemaker and User". Well pholks, the good news is the book is available. Bad news is, shucks I can't remember the name of the place that sells it. Who are the phine pholks who sell all the old re-prints of tool catalogs as well as books in general on ww'g, smithing, wagon building, machinists stuff, etc.?? Mostly old stuff. I got my copy from them about 6-8 months ago. Enjoyed it. Cecil had his own methods, both in sharpening and plane building; and other stuff too. He had a very interesting and colorful life. Most, maybe all (?) of his methods are based on what actually worked for him. Buy it, you'll enjoy too. Lanny Russell N'Awlins 's ---- Start of Message 57955 (thread 25227) ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1999-02-18 23:27:00 Subject: RE:Cecil Pierce Book Addressed to: russelj@t... "'A Bunch of Galoots'" ** Reply to note from "Russell, Lanny J" Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:00:23 -0600 > > >Has anyone any information on a book written by Cecil Pierce entitled > > "50 Years a Planemaker and User". > > Well pholks, the good news is the book is available. Bad news > is, shucks I can't remember the name of the place that sells it. > Who are the phine pholks who sell all the old re-prints of > tool catalogs as well as books in general on ww'g, smithing, > wagon building, machinists stuff, etc.?? Mostly old stuff. Astragal Press. ernie fisch ---- Start of Message 57969 (thread 25227) ---- From: "Paula & Bob Ibach" Date: 1999-02-19 01:28:00 Subject: RE:Cecil Pierce Book Here is a cut-and-paste from the barnesandnoble website. Clever way to save $5.00! Fifty Years a Planemaker & User Special Handling. Cecil E. Pierce,Sam Manning (Illustrator) / Paperback / Date Published: April 1992 Retail Price: $18.00 Our Price: $23.00, You Save ($5.00) Bob Ibach Dallas ++++ End of thread 25227 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25228 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57952 (thread 25228) ---- From: Gil Chesbro Date: 1999-02-18 23:17:00 Subject: Infill Plane Plans in WoodenBoat GG's, Check out pages 36-42 of the March/April 1999 issue of WoodenBoat magazine. It shows how to make a 7" infill smoother out of common household items--er, common tool supply house items. The sole/sides is made from a 1x2" channel. The adjusting mechanism is particullarly ingenious. Not being a metalhead, I'm not inclined to offer an evaluation of the practicality of the design, but I hope some of you machine-shop rats will post yout opinions. I'm inclined to make a couple of modifications (like losing the screws through the sole and substituting pins through the cheeks) and give it a shot. - Gil, still in Michigan ++++ End of thread 25228 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25229 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57954 (thread 25229) ---- From: Jimmy Reina Date: 1999-02-19 11:22:00 Subject: Re: Cecil Pierce Book >Has anyone any information on a book written by Cecil Pierce entitled > "50 Years a Planemaker and User". >Well pholks, the good news is the book is available. Bad news >is, shucks I can't remember the name of the place that sells it. >Who are the phine pholks who sell all the old re-prints of >tool catalogs as well as books in general on ww'g, smithing, >wagon building, machinists stuff, etc.?? Mostly old stuff. Could this be "B. Sorsky, Bookseller"? I believe they are in Fresno, Ca., and I believe they advertise in the back of the woodworking mags. good luck. Jimmy Reina ---- Start of Message 57979 (thread 25229) ---- From: JF1616@a... Date: 1999-02-19 04:20:00 Subject: Re: Cecil Pierce Book Greetings, The book "50 Years a Planemaker and User" by Cecil Pierce is also available from Woodworkers Discount Books for $18.00. Url is http://www.discount-books.com or 1-800-378-4060. They have free shipping for 3 or more books. Janet Fisher in Miami,Fl-where the daily 80 and sunny winter weather makes up for the lack of old tools here, at least this time of year ++++ End of thread 25229 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25230 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57956 (thread 25230) ---- From: Dan Notti Date: 1997-01-08 12:09:00 Subject: FS: Stanley 112 GG's: The tax man cometh and something has to go to meet his cruel demands. Reluctantly this #112 is the sacrificial lamb. Got it off the list about a year and a half ago. Added an IT blade. Here is the original description that still applies: "The tote is very nice with only minor scuffs and nicks. Knob is in similar condition except for a spot at the base that was roughly carved, plus a few cracks. Original blade is unmarked, which was common on turn-of-the-century models and in nearly full-length and cleanable. Brass nuts and lever cap screw in nice uncleaned condition. Japan is about 70% with back half having the most flaking. Needs cleaning, but will be a great user." The plane is still in need of a cleaning. I did stabilize the cracks in the nob with glue as well as adding the IT blade. I understand the nob can be replaced if it really bothered someone, but I found it an interesting conversation piece. Question was how it could have found its way to market. The finish on the tote and knob seem to be original to me (not an expert) so I don't think it was a replacement. Anyway... I would like to get the $195 out of it which I have into it. Standard OT terms apply. Thanks Dan In the grip of Uncle Sam. ++++ End of thread 25230 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25231 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57958 (thread 25231) ---- From: "Alan N. Graham" Date: 1999-02-18 23:36:00 Subject: Shellac Question Since I have only had the chance to use pre-mixed shellac before, I have never had to consider the ratios involved in mixing the shellac and alcohol. Pondering this question late last night, I realized that the oft quoted standards require a weight of shellac to a volume of alcohol (a 2 pound cut being two pounds of shellac to a gallon of alcohol). There are probably few of us who will be mixing a full gallon of shellac at one time. I also don't have an accurate small scale. Does anyone know where I could get a 'kitchen table" recipe for mixing shellac? I am looking for something like ...."Add 1/2 half cup of shellac to three cups of alcohol for a two pound cut...". Any help would be appreciated. Alan N. Graham Windsor, Ontario...the only Canadian city where you have to drive North to get to the USA. ---- Start of Message 57960 (thread 25231) ---- From: "Lawrence H. Smith" Date: 1999-02-19 00:20:00 Subject: Re: Shellac Question >Alan N. Graham writes: >anyone know where I could get a 'kitchen table" recipe for mixing >shellac? I am looking for something like ...."Add 1/2 half cup of >shellac to three cups of alcohol for a two pound cut...". >Windsor, Ontario Which leaves the question of Imperial shellac cuts (160 fl oz gallon) or US shellac cuts (128 fl oz gallon). Metricification would be another issue. Anyway, for those of us who were awake during the "weights and measures" section of math class, a 2 lb cut is also (US): one lb to half a gallon 16 oz/64 fl oz 1/2 lb to one quart 8 oz/32 fl oz 1/4 lb to one pint 4 oz/16 fl oz 1/8 lb to one cup 2 oz/8 fl oz 1/16 lb to 1/2 cup 1 oz/4 floz 0.5 oz/2 fl oz 0.25 oz/1 fl oz -Lawrence H Smith, Librarian/Computarian for Buxton School and Woodworker -lsmith@s... Cats, Coffee, Chocolate... Vices to live by. ---- Start of Message 57962 (thread 25231) ---- From: Michael Latcha Date: 1999-02-19 03:25:00 Subject: Re: Shellac Question > There are probably few of us who will be mixing a full gallon of > shellac at one time. I also don't have an accurate small scale. Does > anyone know where I could get a 'kitchen table" recipe for mixing > shellac? I am looking for something like ...."Add 1/2 half cup of > shellac to three cups of alcohol for a two pound cut...". > > Any help would be appreciated. I haven't done this yet either, but since there are 16 ounces in a pound, and 16 cups in a gallon, a cut of 1 ounce of flakes in 1 cup of alcohol should be a 1 lb cut, 2 oz flakes in 1 cup alcohol is a 2 lb cut, etc. Cheapo mail scales are calibrated in 1 oz increments, and should be accurate enough.... ---- Start of Message 57972 (thread 25231) ---- From: groehm@e... (Geoff Roehm) Date: 1999-02-19 02:22:00 Subject: Re: Shellac Question Alan N. Graham wrote: >Does anyone know where I could get a 'kitchen table" recipe >for mixing shellac? I am looking for something like .... >"Add 1/2 half cup of shellac to three cups of alcohol for >a two pound cut...". I generally just put the flakes in a quart glass jar, cover them with alcohol, and add about as much alcohol on top. This is for French polish, where numeric proportions are more or less academic, but it works. BTW, you need to shake the jar frequently to help disperse the alcohol or you'll wind up with a mass of goo that will take a long time to dissolve. DAMHINT! Try also: http://www.mv.com/ipusers/gunterman/FRENCH.HTM http://www.bendigo.net.au/ubeaut/flakes.html http://www.guernsey.net/~handyman/page20.html Geoff -Tennessee ---- Start of Message 57985 (thread 25231) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-02-19 04:33:00 Subject: Re: Shellac Question Alan wrote: >>anyone know where I could get a 'kitchen table" recipe for mixing >>shellac? I am looking for something like ...."Add 1/2 half cup of >>shellac to three cups of alcohol for a two pound cut...". and got a few of the obvious weight-to-volume divisions of one pound to one gallon, etc. For those who were *not* awake during the reading of OldTools list (just kidding, folks) I think the essence of Alan's question is what is the *volume* measure of a pound of shellac flakes. IOW, if you poured, say, 1/4 lb of shellac flakes into SWMBOs 2-quart pyrex measuring cup, which line would it come up to? And so forth. Tom Holloway, who would also be interested in the answer, not having a good scale for weighing small quantities. ---- Start of Message 58003 (thread 25231) ---- From: "Lawrence H. Smith" Date: 1999-02-19 14:03:00 Subject: Re: Shellac Question > For those who were *not* awake during the reading of OldTools list >(just kidding, folks) I think the essence of Alan's question is what is the >*volume* measure of a pound of shellac flakes. IOW, if you poured, say, >1/4 lb of shellac flakes into SWMBOs 2-quart pyrex measuring cup, which >line would it come up to? And so forth. The problem with this is that the correct answer is: it varies. The same thing happens in cooking, so there are several scales in my kitchen, and the suggestion to use a postal scale for small quantities was a good one. Flake size & packing & the sort of shipping they were subjected to will affect the outcome of a volume/weight conversion. > Tom Holloway, >who would also be interested in the answer, not having a good scale for >weighing small quantities. When PRINY thaws a bit and tag sales start up again, scan for a postal scale which thinks a first-class letter can be sent for 6 cents (or 20, whatever) while you're hauling that load of planes to the cash box. Should set you back about $3 or less. In a hurry? Jerryco (well, they call it American Science & Surplus now, but old customers like me remember Jerry ) http://www.sciplus.com/ has a variety of scales at a variety of cheapness. -Lawrence H Smith, Librarian/Computarian for Buxton School and Woodworker -lsmith@s... Cats, Coffee, Chocolate... Vices to live by. ---- Start of Message 58004 (thread 25231) ---- From: mshort@i... Date: 1999-02-19 14:04:00 Subject: Re: Shellac Question > Alan wrote: > >>anyone know where I could get a 'kitchen table" recipe for mixing > >>shellac? I am looking for something like ...."Add 1/2 half cup of > >>shellac to three cups of alcohol for a two pound cut...". > > and got a few of the obvious weight-to-volume divisions of one > pound to one gallon, etc. > For those who were *not* awake during the reading of OldTools list > (just kidding, folks) I think the essence of Alan's question is what is the > *volume* measure of a pound of shellac flakes. IOW, if you poured, say, > 1/4 lb of shellac flakes into SWMBOs 2-quart pyrex measuring cup, which > line would it come up to? And so forth. > Tom Holloway, I'm glad I wasn't the only one to catch the drift. Having run accross the same conundrum on my own recent initiation to the shellac world, I did get out my SWMBO's pyrex measuring cup and figure it out. I think I recall that I measured a little over 5 cups for 1 1b. of Homestead pale shellac. One caveat would be that I guess not all shellac is created equal. In the jar I had, there were large flakes near the top and tiny flakes near the bottom. That means that the first scoop had less shellac than the last. So if'n your real anal retentive type A neanderthal, better get a balance. I forget now who said it but I found after all that work that any old scoop of shellac in any old mason jar just covered with with a little excess alcohol was perfect for me. I was only using it as a sealer coat under wax now mind you. If you want to use shellac as a finish finish I guess you better not put so much alcohol in it. Have a nice day. --- Michael R Shortreed mshort@i... ---- Start of Message 58014 (thread 25231) ---- From: SSalbWW@a... Date: 1999-02-19 15:01:00 Subject: Re: Shellac Question Gee, I never weigh it . . . I just dump it in and guess! Shannon Salb Washington, D.C. ---- Start of Message 58017 (thread 25231) ---- From: "Paul T. Radovanic" Date: 1999-02-19 15:28:00 Subject: Re: Shellac Question > Alan wrote: > >>anyone know where I could get a 'kitchen table" recipe for mixing > >>shellac? This ain't rocket science. Use one of those little plastic measuring cups from the laundry detergent box if you like. But, in general: For a two-pound cut: Get a glass jar. Make a mark, say 2" from the bottom, and another mark twice as high -- in this case, 4" from the bottom. Fill shellac flakes to the 2" mark, then add alcohol up to the 4" mark. This will be close enough to a 2# cut. Pour some of that off into another jar, then cut that 50/50 with alcohol. This will be a 1# cut, which I use for wiping applications. You can cut this mix 50/50 yet again, yielding a half-pound cut, which I use for sealing. Personally, that's all I need to know. Exact proportions are not important. The only thing you need to worry about is that ***** you have enough shellac to complete one full coat, ***** so that the color is even for that one coat. The next coat does not have to match the previous coat. Not for any reason. Say you think you'll need 16 ounces for one coat, but you only have 12 ounces. You have two choices. Either add 4 ounces of alcohol and get to work, or take the time to mix up some more, then mix the old with the new. Nuttin' to it. Paul Radovanic ---- Start of Message 58019 (thread 25231) ---- From: "Ed O'Riordan" Date: 1999-02-19 15:47:00 Subject: RE: Shellac Question I have found that different shellacs have different volumes for a given weight, so picking a set volume as a rule of thumb doesn't always work (I am sure it is close enough though). But here's how I do it anyway. I usually just divide a new pound in half by volume (2*8oz), then each in half(4*4oz), then each in half(8*2oz.), then each in half(16*1oz). I use paper cups or whatever. When I am down to 1 oz. quantities I throw it in labeled by weight zip-lock bags and then put them back in the container. Ed O' ---- Start of Message 58031 (thread 25231) ---- From: jcrum@a... (John Crum) Date: 1999-02-19 18:16:00 Subject: re: Shellac Question So, if you were a rocket scientist like Chris Dunn, and would like ot work in metric (like me): A 1 lb. cut is 117g/l. That's 117g of shellac in one liter of alcohol. So what do you people that actually use the metric system do? One kg in a dekaliter? What's that called? A one kilogram cut? jc ---- Start of Message 58032 (thread 25231) ---- From: eoh@k... Date: 1999-02-19 14:25:00 Subject: Re: Shellac Question From: Esther Heller For those who were *not* awake during the reading of OldTools list (just kidding, folks) I think the essence of Alan's question is what is the *volume* measure of a pound of shellac flakes. IOW, if you poured, say, 1/4 lb of shellac flakes into SWMBOs 2-quart pyrex measuring cup, which line would it come up to? And so forth. Somebody else had the answer, but in case you missed it, leave SWMBO's cup in the kitchen. Take a washed out peanut butter or jam jar, pour in some flakes, and pour in enough alcohol to cover the flakes. I think that is around 3# cut, but I always like it thinner so I pour in a bit more. Once the flakes have melted you can easily pour in more alcohol until you like how it brushes. There is nothing special about the exact ratio when you mix your own, it is only required in commercial cans so you know how much expensive shellac and cheap alcohol is in the can. 1/4 pound of flakes is a _lot_, I think the 1# plastic bottle of Behlen's is about the size of a quart (liter) jar. Think more in terms or 3-4 tablespoons in the bottom of the jam jar unless you are doing a really big project, you can always mix up a little more.... If you do have some left over, put a plastic bag (2 layers) over the mouth before you put on the lid. That way when the shellac dries and glues the lid on you can get it off again. If it is really stuck, a bit of alcohol dripped in the threads will help. I have been wondering if the Odeen's really realize what they are getting into; 1 ton (2,000 #) of shellac, at around 1 qt/# is going to be a huge volume of stuff to fit into the garage... Esther, the local organizer for 17# eoh@k... ++++ End of thread 25231 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25232 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57961 (thread 25232) ---- From: Tom Corey Date: 1999-02-19 00:23:00 Subject: Jointing Veneer GG's, Someone posted a question about this in the last few weeks. I found a page which addresses this and other things. He mentions tailed demons as well as real tools. Point your browser to: http://members.aol.com/woodinfo1/salpage.htm Hope this helps. Tom Corey ++++ End of thread 25232 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25233 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57970 (thread 25233) ---- From: TURFF49@a... Date: 1999-02-19 01:42:00 Subject: WTB: STANLEY #2 LEVER CAP WTB stanley lever cap( I believe thats what you call what holds the blade in) for a Stanley # 2 from the 1888-1902 era to finish completing my grandfathers (and probably greatgrandfathers plane). Thanks, Brian ++++ End of thread 25233 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25234 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57974 (thread 25234) ---- From: "Ron Harper" Date: 1999-02-19 03:16:00 Subject: WTB Mathieson H & Rs Esteemed GGs Lookin for No 4. 6, and * H&R pairs by Mathieson. Thank you very kindly FOYBIPO, Supporter of theTools for Humanity Project and collector of small oil cans ++++ End of thread 25234 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25235 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57977 (thread 25235) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-19 03:33:00 Subject: April "Woodwork" Did anybody else check out the April issue of Woodwork magazine? It's a treat! Some truly awesome hand-carved carousel horses; an interesting article on "sympathetic restoration" of old beat-up furniture; a several-page article title "Handsaws for Dimensioning and Shaping"; and a lengthy article on various kinds of mortise and tenon joints, subtitled "Part I" (can't wait for Part II; and a up-close look at the Gibson Guitar factory!! (I've got me a Les Paul Custom - had it for about 12 years now - you'll have to pry it from my cold, dead fingers, along with my guns...) Wheeheee! What a great read - I'm not even done yet... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) On the road in Newark, NJ wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 57987 (thread 25235) ---- From: "Ralph Brendler" Date: 1999-02-19 04:44:00 Subject: Re: April "Woodwork" BIll Taggert writes: >Did anybody else check out the April issue of Woodwork magazine? > >It's a treat! You said it! I am really getting to *love* this magazine. It's head and shoulders above any other woodworking rag I've seen recently. The article on handsaws was really fascinating, even if I do quibble with the author's views on panel saws being "worthless", and bamboo-wrapped sticks being a superior alternative. Still, after reading this article, I wish I had paid more attention to the bowsaw thread last month... Fun stuff-- if you don't subscribe, check it out on the newstand. The entire magazine, and this issue in particular, is a "keeper"... ralph ---- Start of Message 58008 (thread 25235) ---- From: Denis Hancock Date: 1999-02-19 14:47:00 Subject: Re: April "Woodwork" Ralph Brendler wrote: > You said it! I am really getting to *love* this magazine. It's head and > shoulders above any other woodworking rag I've seen recently. > The article on handsaws was really fascinating, even if I do quibble with > the author's views on panel saws being "worthless", and bamboo-wrapped > sticks being a superior alternative. Still, after reading this article, I > wish I had paid more attention to the bowsaw thread last month... This was the first magazine I felt enough about to subscribe to after several years of occasionally buying different magazines off the shelf. It has one feature that I hope will never be lost -- the articles are in one chunk. You don't have to turn to the last pages to find the final paragraph of an article hidden amongst all the ads. I especially liked the article on the violin maker a few months back. This magazine has a nice eclectic mix of articles, and the novices aren't left in the dust. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Denis Hancock, Senior Sci. Programmer/Analyst 1-573-882-1722 (voice) dhancock@t... 1-573-884-7850 (fax) Department of Agronomy, University of Missouri, Columbia MO 65211 USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 58204 (thread 25235) ---- From: chasnune@i... Date: 1999-02-22 14:50:00 Subject: RE: April "Woodwork" Bill wrote... > >and a up-close look at the Gibson Guitar > factory!! (I've got me > a Les Paul Custom - had it for about 12 years now - you'll > have to pry it > from my cold, dead fingers, along with my guns...) Bill, You're my kind of guy. Thanks for the Woodwork tip. I'm about to subsribe. It's been pretty good for the last year or so. I too, have a Les Paul custom. Not an old one though. Guns too are a thing of beauty. Charlie Nunemaker ++++ End of thread 25235 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25236 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57978 (thread 25236) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-19 03:53:00 Subject: Unscrewing and unbolting with a brace This is no big deal for most, but I'm still discovering all the simple things that can be accomplished with the right old tool... As previously mentioned, got me a few old barn beams that I plan on turning into a bench base. Two of them had large metal tracks attached for the sliding barn doors - one of the tracks was held on by many very large, rusty flat-head slotted screws, the other by square-head lag bolts (screws?). I wanted to use Galootish methods right from the start, so I figured that meant putting the M*k*t* c*rdl*ss dr*ll away and using a brace with a large screwdriver bit to unscrew the screws. But - me no have bit. At the most recent CRAFTS meet - lo and behold, there's a box of biggo screwdriver bits. Got one, took it home - PERFECT fit. Slap it in the Spofford brace, and about 2 dozen big ol' screws come out of that big ol' beam in about 3 minutes! (Save them screws for some future project...) Now for the bolts... hmmm... I seem to remember having some wierd-looking square thing with a tapered square shank laying around that I picked up somewhere - it suddenly strikes me that it's probably for turning square-head bolts with a brace. Wouldn't that be funny if it were the right size? Dig, dig dig around shop - AHA! Here it is... let's see - yowza! It's the right size! The Spofford brace doesn't have enough leverage, so get out the 10" sweep Yankee and give that a go - About 1/2 dozen mondo lag bolts (screws?) come out in about a minute and half! Hey! neat. OK - so this is preaching to the choir, but I bet it would have taken me longer with the M*k*t* c*rdl*ss dr*ll, since the bit would have undoubtedly slipped and twisted out a few times, causing me to pause and re-start, and damaging the screw slot. I felt I had much more control with the brace. For the bolts, the only other option would have been an adjustable wrench, which obviously would have been slower... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) On the road in Newark, NJ wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 57984 (thread 25236) ---- From: Rick Young Date: 1999-02-18 16:35:00 Subject: Re: Unscrewing and unbolting with a brace Im new here , but you sound like a true galoot to me.... a big sweeping tip of the hat to you ....... : ) At 10:53 PM 2/18/99 -0500, you wrote: >This is no big deal for most, but I'm still discovering all the simple >things that can be accomplished with the right old tool... > >As previously mentioned, got me a few old barn beams that I plan on turning >into a bench base. > >Two of them had large metal tracks attached for the sliding barn doors - one >of the tracks was held on by many very large, rusty flat-head slotted >screws, the other by square-head lag bolts (screws?). > >I wanted to use Galootish methods right from the start, so I figured that >meant putting the M*k*t* c*rdl*ss dr*ll away and using a brace with a large >screwdriver bit to unscrew the screws. But - me no have bit. At the most >recent CRAFTS meet - lo and behold, there's a box of biggo screwdriver bits. >Got one, took it home - PERFECT fit. Slap it in the Spofford brace, and >about 2 dozen big ol' screws come out of that big ol' beam in about 3 >minutes! (Save them screws for some future project...) > >Now for the bolts... hmmm... I seem to remember having some wierd-looking >square thing with a tapered square shank laying around that I picked up >somewhere - it suddenly strikes me that it's probably for turning >square-head bolts with a brace. Wouldn't that be funny if it were the right >size? Dig, dig dig around shop - AHA! Here it is... let's see - yowza! It's >the right size! The Spofford brace doesn't have enough leverage, so get out >the 10" sweep Yankee and give that a go - About 1/2 dozen mondo lag bolts >(screws?) come out in about a minute and half! > >Hey! neat. > >OK - so this is preaching to the choir, but I bet it would have taken me >longer with the M*k*t* c*rdl*ss dr*ll, since the bit would have undoubtedly >slipped and twisted out a few times, causing me to pause and re-start, and >damaging the screw slot. I felt I had much more control with the brace. For >the bolts, the only other option would have been an adjustable wrench, which >obviously would have been slower... > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >William K. Taggart (Bill) >On the road in Newark, NJ >wkt@i... >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >-- > > ---- Start of Message 57993 (thread 25236) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-18 16:31:00 Subject: Re: Unscrewing and unbolting with a brace <> > Hey! neat. > > OK - so this is preaching to the choir, but I bet it would have taken me > longer with the M*k*t* c*rdl*ss dr*ll, since the bit would have undoubtedly > slipped and twisted out a few times, causing me to pause and re-start, and > damaging the screw slot. I felt I had much more control with the brace. For > the bolts, the only other option would have been an adjustable wrench, which > obviously would have been slower... Yep. One of my favourites too. What I really like is the torque and the sensitivity. I'm sure there are electric tools that have the degree of control. I'm sure I can't afford them. The "ordinary" user-grade electric tools are poor. I fitted out my loft floor with particle board (chipboard), drilling and screwing cut sheets to the rafters. I wimped out and used a j*gs*w for the cutting, but all the drilling and screwing was manual. This is were being a tool collector was handy. As I worked, the area was littered with (in order of use) 1 Stanley 801 with 3mm twist bit (pilot hole) 1 Miller Falls egg-beater with 4mm twist bit (clearance hole) 1 electricians brace (tiny sweep) with countersink 1 full sweep with screwdriver bit (since I was driving twin thread screws this was a electric bit, put to better use :-) Quiet, satisfying work. I lent the whole setpu to a non-gallot friend, doing the same job. I have since been requested to bottom-feed him a brace. BugBear. ---- Start of Message 58011 (thread 25236) ---- From: "Tom Dugan" Date: 1999-02-19 14:54:00 Subject: Re: Unscrewing and unbolting with a brace Paul the Bugbear writes of the brace as screwdriver: > Yep. One of my favourites too. What I really like is the > torque and the sensitivity. I'm sure there are electric > tools that have the degree of control. I'm sure I can't afford > them. The "ordinary" user-grade electric tools are poor. > Frankly, I'm *not* sure there are electric tools with the kind of sensitivity to do some jobs as well as a brace. I'm thinking about driving bronze screws through the end of a cedar plank into the white oak stem of a boat. You've gotta watch out for a bunch of stuff - twisting the head off of a soft bronze screw while squeezing the end of a very soft 3/8" plank up against a piece of what might as well be iron. Nothing beats a brace IMHO. But that's just my .02 Tom Dugan Still Living in Lower Marlboro Yeah, of *course* the plank's pre-drilled, but that doesn't stop it from busting. DAMHIKT ---- Start of Message 58038 (thread 25236) ---- From: Jimmy Reina Date: 1999-02-20 06:52:00 Subject: Re: Unscrewing and unbolting with a brace > Now for the bolts... hmmm... I seem to remember having some wierd-looking > square thing with a tapered square shank laying around that I picked up > somewhere - it suddenly strikes me that it's probably for turning > square-head bolts with a brace. Wouldn't that be funny if it were the right > size? Dig, dig dig around shop - AHA! Here it is... let's see - yowza! It's > the right size! > > To me, this is the amazing part of the story. If I were in this situati on, I would have had seven of these "brace wrenches", but not the one that was the right size. With that kind of luck, I would stop off in Atlantic City and put $20.00 in one of those big mama slot machines. Jimmy Reina ---- Start of Message 58075 (thread 25236) ---- From: Norman Witt Date: 1999-02-20 04:41:00 Subject: Re: Unscrewing and unbolting with a brace As someone else already mentioned, it is really unusual to have the correct size screwdriver bit available. For those of us who are less fortunate, Lee Valley sells brace adapters for both 3/8" sockets and hex screwdriver bits. The screwdriver adapter is particularly useful, since it allows you to use your brace to drive every form of screw known to man, with replacement bits available in even the most minimally equipped hardware store. My own revelation occurred a year or two ago. I was driving deck screws when the battery on my e-tool died. I finished the job by improvising with a hex bit clamped into my brace, none too securely since it had a Barbur chuck. After discovering how amazingly well this worked, I ended up making a hex bit holder by combining a magnetic bit extension with the shank of an otherwise trashed augur bit. This was exactly the right tool for the job, and I had just posted a description to the list when Lee Valley announced their version, at a price lower than that of the components used for mine. Anyone who owns a brace owes it to himself to shell out the $4.95 for the bit adapter. The combination will become the most used tool around the house. Norm W. who has a brace dedicated to driving screws, and owns both types of Lee Valley adapter. ++++ End of thread 25236 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25237 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57980 (thread 25237) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-19 04:28:00 Subject: Reshaping carving tools Greetings GG's OK, I should know the answer to this since Ron's posting on heat treating is stashed in my archives, BUT, one more troll for wisdom before I fire up that accursed Prestolite again. I have an Addis v-parting tool that has been heated and bent to make it into a sharper VEE. In fact it's so steep that it can't be sharpened correctly. SO, it has to be reheated and bent back into shape and then retempered. Advice please? I would hate to ruin the thing cuz there's plenty of steel in it. TIA TOM ++++ End of thread 25237 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25238 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57981 (thread 25238) ---- From: Rick Young Date: 1999-02-18 16:27:00 Subject: RE Baloon I like patch, shirts , apron, anything...... and by the way thank you all for the great replays to my questions. you are a great bunch of galoots..... ++++ End of thread 25238 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25239 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57982 (thread 25239) ---- From: D & B Brown Date: 1999-02-19 04:33:00 Subject: Yost info request GGs, Well this must be my week for pattern maker's vises. First I posted that there was an Emmert in my local newspaper & then today a Yost (I believe #1) threw itself in my path & followed me home. The details of the acquisition I'll leave out, unless someone twists my arm. It would just be another mean spirited gloat anyways. Anyhow.....this is the 1st one I've had an opportunity to play with & can readily see why everyone thinks they're the "bees knees". Does anyone have any info on this vise company & maybe installation instructions? It was mounted on a bench when I got it but it really appeared to be a cobby installation job. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, David Brown ---- Start of Message 58027 (thread 25239) ---- From: Wade McDonald Date: 1999-02-19 17:10:00 Subject: Re: Yost info request DB & other galoots, DB writes >today a Yost (I believe #1) threw itself in my path & followed me home. The details of the acquisition I'll leave out, unless someone twists my arm. It would just be another mean spirited gloat anyways. Welcome to the Yost club. I was weak when I got my big Yost #1 patternmaker's vice for a relative pittance and gloated about it to the list. Actually, it came with a bunch of other stuff too, twas a worthy gloat here in tool heck TX. >Does anyone have any info on this vise company & maybe installation instructions? Yost is still in business in Michigan, and they make machinst vises, maybe other stuff. I gave em a call a while back- they got bought out in the 70s and don't have any of the old patterns around. The fellow I spoke too had been around as long as anyone there, and said he had never seen one of the patternmakers vices, but he sure would like too. Said they had the facilities and know how to make them, but didn't think there was an obvious market that would support the venture. He said they stopped making them in the 50's. I thnik mine is pretty early since it has a 1906 patent date on it and a turtleback configuration. According to the Workbench book, Yost worked at Emmert in the early days of Emmert and went off to found his own patternmaking vice company, notably a few years after that 1906 patent date. I've had mine a year and still don't have it mounted :{. And I've even built a quick and dirty workbench/worktable in the meantime. (Antique longleaf pine 2X4 base, side of road found top, hardboard surface- solid, stable, quick to build. But not quite big patternmaker vice ready, put a nice little vice I had lying around on it. Now I can use this to build a real one.) My Yost is missing the bench bracket that is commonly missing, plus I'm saving it for a real workbench- thats it :}. Brent Parkin and Brandon Ford (BTW congrats) have mentioned getting theirs up and running. As far as I can tell, the Yost and Emmert bench installation technique should be the same. John G and Steve Johnson have the original Emmert instructions on web pages. And Paddy has quite a pic. BTW- Paddy deserves a major plug for his design. He manages to conveniently get the vice inset to the bench and the tail vice row of dogholes in one fell swoop. Given your description, I assume you are missing the bench bracket. Veritas sells a mounting kit for the Tucker $50 which is rumored to work Folks also used parts for the AMT vice to do this- I think less $$. Since Woodcraft now carries this vice, I suspect someday they will be able to get the parts for less too. My local Woodcraft isn't moving any faster than I am about getting one on a bench for display,but maybe yours has done better and you can get a close up look. If you get a very solid large angle iron, (3 or 4 " wide, 4" long, 1/4" thick?) and can mill a slot in 1/4" steel, you could make this for not that much in materials or time. Look at the Workbench book for some under bench pics. Of course in the meantime you can put the pattermakers vice on the shelf to weight down your bench. It will provide some function and will be on your bench- who says you need to intall it! Regards, Wade Still sharpening in Austin, TX ---- Start of Message 58029 (thread 25239) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1999-02-19 18:12:00 Subject: Re: Yost info request On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:10:10 -0600 Wade McDonald writes: [snip David Brown encountering two patternmaker's vises in one week] > >My Yost is missing the bench bracket that is commonly missing, plus >I'm saving it for a real workbench- thats it :}. [snip] > >Given your description, I assume you are missing the bench bracket. >Veritas sells a mounting kit for the Tucker $50 which is rumored to work > Folks also used parts for the AMT vice to do this- I think less $$. >Since Woodcraft now carries this vice, I suspect someday they will be >able to get the parts for less too. My local Woodcraft isn't moving >any faster than I am about getting one on a bench for display,but maybe >yours has done better and you can get a close up look. > >If you get a very solid large angle iron, (3 or 4 " wide, 4" long, >1/4" thick?) and can mill a slot in 1/4" steel, you could make this for not >that much in materials or time. Look at the Workbench book for some >under bench pics. > I had the patternmaker's vise encounter of the second kind as well. I am pretty confused. The first one has a rod attached. This would be the rod to hold the vise up in a tilting position. John Gunterman's website shows a vise with a bar with a slot in it instead of this rod. Someone (whose information I don't trust) swears that the type with the rod doesn't require the bracket which Wade discusses above. I think that someone is clueless. By the way, it isn't Tom. So I am interested in all comments on the differences between a vise with a round rod and one with a bar with slot. I am also very interested if anyone has done any of the options Wade has laid out would comment on their experience. Also, has anyone contacted the person who is said to bought out the Emmert stock from the original guy who has taken ill? (rumored to be Tom Law) What is available? By the way, the second one doesn't have a rod or bar, or the bracket and is not helpful for comparison. Regards, Steve - partway through an Emmert education ---- Start of Message 58030 (thread 25239) ---- From: D & B Brown Date: 1999-02-19 18:16:00 Subject: Re: Yost info request At 11:10 AM 2/19/99 -0600, Wade McDonald wrote: >Welcome to the Yost club. I was weak when I got my big Yost #1 >patternmaker's vice for a relative pittance and gloated about it to the >list. Actually, it came with a bunch of other stuff too, twas a worthy >gloat here in tool heck TX. Well there was that whole Stanley #1 gloat thing & what I didn't post to the list was a Stanley #2 two weeks later from the same guy. Just suffice to say this Yost was *cheap* & only had to be moved 20' to get it into my garage. Still a daunting task though. >I thnik mine is pretty early since >it has a 1906 patent date on it and a turtleback configuration. Sounds like we have about the same unit. Mine is PAT'D Sept 29, 1908 & is also a turtleback design. > I assume you are missing the bench bracket. I guess the gloat continues.....this one does have the bench bracket & the tilting mechanism appears to be complete. With my limited knowledge I put this thing through it's paces, spun it 360 degrees & tilted it up & down. Considering this vise hasn't been touched in who knows how long, it works surprisingly smoothly. >Of course in the meantime you can put the pattermakers vice on the shelf >to weight down your bench. It will provide some function and will be on >your bench- who says you need to intall it! I've got to admit I'm getting a little excited about using this. I may temporarily mount it on the outfeed table of my errrr, ummmm, treadle powered t.s. Thanks so much for all the info. Maybe I can return the favor by providing any measurements or pictures of any parts others may be missing from their vises. Regards, David Brown ---- Start of Message 58171 (thread 25239) ---- From: DaveWolv@a... Date: 1999-02-22 01:10:00 Subject: Re: yost info request Steve Reynolds wrote: > Also, has anyone contacted the > person who is said to bought out the Emmert stock from the original guy > who has taken ill? (rumored to be Tom Law) What is available? Steve, I do believe it was Tom Law. A friend of mine scored an Emmert (probably more properly a "box of Emmert parts" as the prior owner had disassembled it and then couldn't find all the parts when my friend tried to buy it). I directed my friend to Tom, and last I heard, Tom was going to send him a replacement main screw and prolly some other parts. I don't know what Tom has in stock, as I haven't talked with him personally. dave @ dave's home for wayward benches ---- Start of Message 58175 (thread 25239) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 1999-02-22 02:16:00 Subject: Re: yost info request On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:10:41 EST, DaveWolv@a... wrote: >I do believe it was Tom Law. A friend of mine scored an Emmert (probably >more properly a "box of Emmert parts" as the prior owner had disassembled >it and then couldn't find all the parts when my friend tried to buy it). I >directed my friend to Tom, and last I heard, Tom was going to send him a >replacement main screw and prolly some other parts. > >I don't know what Tom has in stock, as I haven't talked with him personally. Tom Law is definitely the guy for Emmerts and parts. When I last spoke to him in October, he had a pretty good stock. Tom Law 62 West Water Street Smithsburg, Maryland 21783 (301) 824-5223 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA New Email address: avogadro@b... (also avogadro@w...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ++++ End of thread 25239 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25240 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57983 (thread 25240) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-19 04:33:00 Subject: Rebuilding wooden threads MORE Greetings! OK, so this boxwood plow I landed has some serious gaps in the threads (hence the cheap price). I know there there is someone out there in Restorationville who rebuilds threads when they're in this condition. My assumption is that he glues in bits of threads with superglue and then files them back into shape. Anyone done this? My second guess is that he builds up the area to be repaired with pieces of wood, planes the poieces down to the correct OD, and then runs a threading die over the arm. Clearly that would give the better result if the correct die were used. Anyone know this guys name (apparently some of the major collectors use his services) Anyone know how he does it? Anyone want to do mine for me???? G'nite Tom ---- Start of Message 57989 (thread 25240) ---- From: elschaffer@j... Date: 1999-02-19 05:01:00 Subject: Re: Rebuilding wooden threads Sounds like the fellow you're looking for is Robert Baker; an M-WTCA member-------and highly talented woodworker-magician! --ErvSawwwwwwwwwwz ---- Start of Message 57999 (thread 25240) ---- From: "David Barnett" Date: 1999-02-19 12:05:00 Subject: Re: Rebuilding wooden threads Tom Johnson wrote: (snip) >My second guess is that he builds up the area to be repaired with pieces of >wood, planes the poieces down to the correct OD, and then runs a threading >die over the arm. Clearly that would give the better result if the correct >die were used. The restorer of the Thos. Appleton plough I bought last year took it a step further. Instead of merely rebuilding the threads on the damaged boxood arm, he rethreaded it to a smaller diameter so expertly it escaped my initial notice, and without affecting its utility in any adverse way. While the plane itself is well-made and lovely, the repair is an amazing piece of workmanship. In other words, this plane's a keeper. Trevor Robinson could explain it better, since he's the galoot who brought this old tool back to life. David Barnett Northampton, MA ---- Start of Message 58018 (thread 25240) ---- From: Eddie Sirotich Date: 1999-02-19 15:22:00 Subject: Re:Rebuilding wooden threads Our own Gil Lamothe wrote an excellent article on rebuilding wooden threads on a plow plane. I published it in the Woodworking Times, my on-line woodworking magazine back then when I had time for such endeavours. Here is the URL for this article: http://www.woodworking.com/magazine/mar97/plough.html If you want to see other articles, go to http://www.woodworking.com/magazine for the index. Eddie ex-publisher ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adria Tools - High Quality Dovetail Saws - http://www.woodworking.com/adria/ The Woodworking Catalog - http://www.woodworking.com Log Homes on the Internet - http://www.woodworking.com/loghomes ---- Start of Message 58042 (thread 25240) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-02-19 08:30:00 Subject: RE: Rebuilding wooden threads ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of ~ Tom Johnson ~ Sent: Friday, February 19, 1999 4:33 AM ~ To: oldtools@l... ~ Subject: Rebuilding wooden threads ~ ~ OK, so this boxwood plow I landed has some serious gaps in ~ the threads Hitching onto Tom's posting: I have one inherited from my father, but the threads of one (boxwood) arm nearest the body are stripped. I can't get the nut to engage because the fragments of thread appear to be be jammed inside the nut. Any bright ideas please? Jeff ++++ End of thread 25240 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25241 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57986 (thread 25241) ---- From: "HALL, HAYWARD" Date: 1999-02-19 04:41:00 Subject: RE: Safty First - I remember in my early days of learning smithing when I saw file marks all along the fingernails of my mentor, just like mine. I knew I'd found a kindred spirit :). It's funny how we all bear the same marks (deformities?) of the trade(s). I leave you now with a bit of verse appropriate to the thread. Ode to My Fingers I have 10 digits - one full set. To wit, there's 5 per hand. Because I Scary Sharp(tm) my blades I count as oft' I can. Hayward Hall Springfield MO > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Neely [SMTP:bill.neely@c...] > Sent: Thursday, February 18, 1999 4:14 PM > To: PetersonS@m... > Cc: OLDTOOLS@l... > Subject: Re: Safty First > > You've only shredded the back of your thumb once? Bill (Slow on the > uptake) Neely > > "Peterson, Samuel L." wrote: > > > > > When I use a handsaw (I'm a rightie), I like to wear a leather glove on > my > > left hand. One time I was starting a kerf with a Stanley Sharksaw and > the > > saw jumped out of the cut and did a Veg-O-Matic to my left hand. > +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ ---- Start of Message 57994 (thread 25241) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-18 16:31:00 Subject: RE: Safty First - > I remember in my early days of learning smithing when I saw file marks all > along the fingernails of my mentor, just like mine. I knew I'd found a > kindred spirit :). It's funny how we all bear the same marks (deformities?) > of the trade(s). Slightly off-topic... There's a wonderful bit in "Gamesmanship" by Stephen Potter, where the beginning golfer is much cheered to hear that "Your swing's no better, but you have calusses on your hands where they would be if you were doing it right" BugBear ++++ End of thread 25241 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25242 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57988 (thread 25242) ---- From: "Gene & Lucy Toye" Date: 1999-02-19 04:57:00 Subject: broken lateral adjust on #7 I have a type 12 #7 I got on Ebay recently. I've got it cleaned up and a new Hock iron on the way (thanks to those who helped with that decision!). After concentrating on rust cleanup, I just noticed that the lateral adjust lever is missing the "washer" that is pinned to the end and engages the slot in the blade. 1. Other than a new one from Stanley parts, anybody know where I can find a more authentic one? I haven't got a clue where to find good old tools in Dallas-Fort Worth, much less junkers to get a part from. 2. Once I find one (new or old), does anybody have a how-to on replacing the lever? Thanks once again in advance! ---------- The Toye Family: Gene, Lucy, David, and Amanda 1601 San Francisco Carrollton, TX 75007 ---- Start of Message 57990 (thread 25242) ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 1999-02-19 05:01:00 Subject: Re: broken lateral adjust on #7 In a message dated 2/18/99 8:48:56 PM, you wrote: << 2. Once I find one (new or old), does anybody have a how-to on replacing the lever? >> A "two pound" tinner's rivet is just about right. Insert the rivet from the bottom of the frog. The trick is to pein the rivet over very slowly, rotating it so it gets evenly disrupted. A 4 oz ball pein hammer using your thumb as a guide works best. I have not found a good replacement for the lateral adjuster disk. ++++ End of thread 25242 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25243 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57991 (thread 25243) ---- From: Rick Young Date: 1999-02-18 16:31:00 Subject: old barn wood Galoots, Talked with a friend to day who has and old barn he is tearing down. He is going to sell the wood....this building is over 100 yrs old. He says there is great stuff , one bys, two bys, large beams, I know everyone says dont use pine for bench , but if its 100 years old very dry, would that be an exception??? Rick ---- Start of Message 58033 (thread 25243) ---- From: James Foster Date: 1999-02-19 18:29:00 Subject: Re: old barn wood Rick Young wrote: > > Galoots, > > Talked with a friend to day who has and old barn he is tearing down. He is > going to sell the wood....this building is over 100 yrs old. He says there > is great stuff , one bys, two bys, large beams, > > I know everyone says dont use pine for bench , but if its 100 years old very > dry, would that be an exception??? Even moderately old (~80 years) pine boards seem quite hard when compared to modern stock. The old growth was slower and so the wood was denser, and someone reported that the resins in the wood seem to harden over time. It might be worth getting a few test boards and seeing how dent resistant they are compared to modern pine and a maple "standard." Probably would work out okay to use it. ++++ End of thread 25243 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25244 ++++ ---- Start of Message 57998 (thread 25244) ---- From: Jim Thoreson Date: 1999-02-19 11:53:00 Subject: Missing Digest issues It seems that I didn't receive OLDTOOLS digest 3861 or 3862. It also seems that I missed out on 3834 and before that 3804. Can anyone out there help? Does anyone still have these? Who should I contact? TIA Jim Thoreson (j_thor@e...) ---- Start of Message 58083 (thread 25244) ---- From: "Tim Swihart" Date: 1999-02-20 07:16:00 Subject: Re: Missing Digest issues I sent 'em to you. I usually have the last umpteen zillion digests either at home or at work so digging 'em up for forwarding's no big deal. You can ask off list next time if you want to avoid the risk of lots of galoots all forwarding at once. :-) Tim S. > Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990219065355.00927220@t...> > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 06:53:55 -0500 > To: OLDTOOLS@l... > From: Jim Thoreson > Subject: Missing Digest issues > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > It seems that I didn't receive OLDTOOLS digest 3861 or 3862. It also seems > that I missed out on 3834 and before that 3804. Can anyone out there help? > Does anyone still have these? Who should I contact? > > TIA > > Jim Thoreson > (j_thor@e...) ++++ End of thread 25244 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25245 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58000 (thread 25245) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-19 10:10:00 Subject: About sharpening saws... Hi all. I was in a sharpening mood recently. You know, when you don't have time for anything else so you decide to go over the tools and "quickly" sharpen the problem ones, and you end up spending more time than ever on them? ;-) Well, there was this el-cheapo tenon saw I got for peanuts at a recent tool sale. I always thought it was absolutely hopeless. Never managed to cut anything in a straight line with it... So I decided to give it the once-over. Since it cost me so little (<$A5), I didn't mind if I made a mess of it. Out came the rubber block and the wet-and-dry to make the sides of the teeth a little more straight-lineish. Worked fine. The teeth are more or less linearly aligned now. But they were not sharp. Not by any stretch of the imagination. So I remembered the japanese saw file I had bought in a moment of weakness (quite a common occurrence... ;-) ). Tried to use it but I'm hopeless. There had to be a better solution, says I. Then, , there it came: I have one of these Dremel little high-speed drills that I use for the fishing gear (making lures, if you must know). Put in one of those little arbours, with a sanding disk. Low rpms, about 1/4 of the scale, to make sure I didn't burn the teeth. Touch, look, touch again, adjust the angle, and so on. Went through all the teeth on one side, then the other. All in rip saw shape. Tried the saw. It works like a charm! Smooth, straight kerf. All for <$5. Now, question time: Is this something that I can expect to work for other saws of better quality? I know it's an *l*ctr*c tool, but it saved me so much time and I got the thing so sharp I was impressed! Has anybody in the Porch had a good experience with this method for saw sharpening? It takes about three minutes per side on a 12" tenon saw, and that's counting the time I took gaping... Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ---- Start of Message 58010 (thread 25245) ---- From: jgbaron@u... Date: 1999-02-19 14:53:00 Subject: Re: About sharpening saws... Nuno Souto writes: >There had to be a better solution, says I. >Then, , there it came: I have one of these Dremel little >high-speed drills that I use for the fishing gear (making >lures, if you must know). Put in one of those little arbours, >with a sanding disk. I haven't tried this (cause I don't have a Dremel), but I have always wanted to try it. Seems to me it would be a lot easier than trying to fight the cutting bias of a file, especially on very fine tooth saws. I can file maybe 5 to 8 TPI OK; much finer than that, and my technique falls down and I can never get evenly-sized teeth. Is using a Dremel non-galootish? No worse than sharpening tools with an electric grinder, or sending saws out to a sharpening service. Regards, Joe _______________________________________________________ Joseph G. Baron Internet: jgbaron@u... ---- Start of Message 58065 (thread 25245) ---- From: "Paul W. Jones" Date: 1999-02-20 00:17:00 Subject: Re: About sharpening saws... Joe Baron writes about using a Dremel instead of a file for saw sharpening: > I haven't tried this (cause I don't have a Dremel), but I have always > wanted to try it. Seems to me it would be a lot easier than trying to > fight the cutting bias of a file, especially on very fine tooth saws. I > can file maybe 5 to 8 TPI OK; much finer than that, and my technique falls > down and I can never get evenly-sized teeth. I recently sharpened my first saw, but rather than practice on something manageable like a 5 tpi, I went in head-first and did a 15 tpi dovetail saw that had been poorly maintained. Am I insane? Well, that's up for debate, but the saw turned out very nice and cuts extremely well. Here's what I did to ensure that the teeth came out even. I first leveled the tops using a saw jointer (the Veritas model). Enough of each tooth was left so that I didn't have to lay down marks to get the correct spacing. The trick was to then put a narrow stripe of machinist's dye on the blade near the tooth line. Using a straight edge as a guide, I *lightly* scratched a reference line along the blade at a fixed distance away from the edge. I used a 0.5mm mechanical pencil tip to do the line as I was afraid a very sharp instrument might remove enough metal to weaken the blade right at the base of the teeth. A fine tip magic marker might work just as well. With the reference line, it was now fairly easy to file to a consistent tooth height (or depth, depending on your point-of-view). It's not critical that you file exactly to the line; you just have to be a consistent as to the bottom of each tooth relative to the line. I was doing a rip profile, which may have made the job easier, but the same method should probably work for crosscut. I did use one of those shop lights with the built-in magnifier, and that was a big help as my near-point focus has recently gone downhill. (OK, let's see a show of hands; I know I'm not alone.) Of course, everything didn't go entirely smoothly as this was also the first time I ever used a saw set. I managed to bust two teeth before I got the hang of where to place the set (and the amount of set, which was minimal). Fortunately, the busted teeth were near the handle, so no real problem. After setting, I touched up the tips of the teeth with the jointer to make sure everything was completely level. I tried the saw on some hard maple, and it cut straight and it cut efficiently. A little isopropyl alcohol then removed any traces of my sharpening crutches. Regards, Paul Jones ---- Start of Message 58085 (thread 25245) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-02-19 19:50:00 Subject: RE: About sharpening saws... ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of ~ Nuno Souto ~ Sent: Friday, February 19, 1999 10:10 AM ~ To: Oldtools ~ Subject: About sharpening saws... ~ ~ Tried the saw. It works like a charm! Smooth, straight ~ kerf. No pigs and sows (Cows and calves)? Likely if the saw was not topped first? Grinding sounds a nice idea if you can maintain the profile of the wheel and it doesn't cut too fiercely. Jeff ---- Start of Message 58120 (thread 25245) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-20 23:15:00 Subject: Re: About sharpening saws... -----Original Message----- From: jgbaron@u... Date: Friday, 19 February 1999 23:20 Subject: Re: About sharpening saws... > > >I haven't tried this (cause I don't have a Dremel), but I have always >wanted to try it. Seems to me it would be a lot easier than trying to >fight the cutting bias of a file, especially on very fine tooth saws. I >can file maybe 5 to 8 TPI OK; much finer than that, and my technique falls >down and I can never get evenly-sized teeth. Yeah, same problem here. I always end up filing the front of the previous toot h instead of the back of the current one and vicky-the-versa. I suppose the make r of the drill makes zilch difference. I just happened to have a Dremel, but I think any other similar tool will do. Thing to watch out was the revs. Too high and the temper goes. > >Is using a Dremel non-galootish? No worse than sharpening tools with an >electric grinder, or sending saws out to a sharpening service. > Exactly. Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ---- Start of Message 58121 (thread 25245) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-20 23:25:00 Subject: Re: About sharpening saws... -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Gorman Date: Saturday, 20 February 1999 15:49 Subject: RE: About sharpening saws... >No pigs and sows (Cows and calves)? Likely if the saw was not topped >first? > No, not at all. I checked first if it needed topping, it didn't. Then I sharpened. Gotta be careful that angles stay the same all the way through. The Dremel can be quite agressive in removing metal, so a light touch is the order of the day. >Grinding sounds a nice idea if you can maintain the profile of the >wheel and it doesn't cut too fiercely. > Well, that's the beauty of this thing. 1/4 speed on a Dremel will not melt metal at all. Maintaining the angle is easy. Because the disc sits 90 degrees with the drill , the hand holding it is almost parallel to the saw. Which means it's an easy thing to stick out a finger and slide it against the saw. This keeps the angle as constant as it can get with manual work, I suppose. And it works both ways, for front and back of teeth. Another thing it does is make it easy to find where I was after a stop: the sharpened teeth stand ou t because of the shiny surface. Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ---- Start of Message 58152 (thread 25245) ---- From: ecoyle@c... (eric coyle) Date: 1999-02-21 17:01:00 Subject: Re: About sharpening saws... Would That would be the hand cranked Dre*el or the foot-owered Drem*l you guys are talkin bout? Cowtown Eric ---- Start of Message 58164 (thread 25245) ---- From: "Ron Harper" Date: 1999-02-21 23:45:00 Subject: Re: About sharpening saws... -----Original Message----- From: eric coyle To: : 'Oldtools' Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 12:02 PM Subject: Re: About sharpening saws... Eric asked >Would That would be the hand cranked Dre*el or the foot-owered Drem*l you >guys are talkin bout? > I think some guys have line shaft s hooked up and are running them off water power > > ++++ End of thread 25245 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25246 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58001 (thread 25246) ---- From: "John L. Odom" Date: 1999-02-19 13:00:00 Subject: WTB Knob for my #112 The sublect says it all except that it must be low style and cheap (Bottomfeeder at work). Thanks John Odom in Ooltewah, TN ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ++++ End of thread 25246 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25247 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58006 (thread 25247) ---- From: "Paul Schobernd" Date: 1999-02-19 14:32:00 Subject: Re: OLDTOOLS digest 3864 I lurk out here in digest-land most of the time, but I'd go for a galootishly appropriate shirt. After reading some of the posts I realized that I too have been blessed with the sort of ample proportions that makes me a "natural" for a 3X fashion statement sort of garment. That shirt, an eclectic assortment of old tools and enough scars to tell stories all evening--I could be a poster -galoot! Has anyone ever considered a galoot Pinup calendar---one with 12 different prominent galoots captured in their native habitat--albeit fully clothed? Pardon that last suggestion--lack of sleep causes brain to malfunction in the AM. Sign me up for whatever. Paul Schobernd >>> "List for users and collectors of antique tools" 02/19 2:08 PM >>> OLDTOOLS Digest 3864 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Unscrewing and unbolting with a brace by Rick Young 2) RE: Safty First - by "HALL, HAYWARD" 3) Re: April "Woodwork" by "Ralph Brendler" 4) broken lateral adjust on #7 by "Gene & Lucy Toye" 5) old barn wood by Rick Young 6) Re: Rebuilding wooden threads by elschaffer@j... 7) Re: broken lateral adjust on #7 by PeterH5322@a... 8) Re: Norris Planes by bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) 9) Re: Unscrewing and unbolting with a brace by bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) 10) RE: Safty First - by bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) 11) Re: Workshop floors by "EFISHER.US.ORACLE.COM" 12) Re: Workshop floors by b2d@e... (Duke of URLs) 13) RE: Australopithecus alone in the workshop by Tom Corey 14) Missing Digest issues by Jim Thoreson 15) Re: Rebuilding wooden threads by "David Barnett" 16) About sharpening saws... by "Nuno Souto" 17) WTB Knob for my #112 by "John L. Odom" 18) Re: ... Re: A Test Baloon by Steve_Bussell@i... 19) Re: Shellac Question by "Lawrence H. Smith" 20) Re: Shellac Question by mshort@i... 21) Re: A test Baloon by Chuck Phillips ++++ End of thread 25247 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25248 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58009 (thread 25248) ---- From: "Gary P. Johns" Date: 1999-02-19 14:48:00 Subject: Uh Oh. I actschually finished something! GG's I think I'm in trouble. Last Mother's day I sorta talked my mom into letting me build her the chimney cupboard that was featured in Woodsmith last year. Well wednesday night I finally finished it. (HEY! Stop that sniggering (chortling, Jeff) over there on the end of the porch O'Deen!!) Yeah I know I finished a project in only 8 months. Waaaaay ahead of schedule. Oldtools used were saws, scrapers, planes, etc., too numerous to mention. I will admit in front of this august body (how come there's never a July or September body?) that Neanderbuddys were also used. But only once or twice and I sharpened all my chisels and saws afterwards as penance. The one important lesson I learned on this project? Don't start with cheap pine lumber from Lowe's or Home Despot. Even though the finished project looks pretty darn good, I still have warpage from glueups not staying straight. And yes, I glued them up right the first time. Other lessons learned were how to scramble when a mistake becomes obvious. A prime example of that would be when I had massive tearout doing the dado for raised panels on the doors. As this was my third panel to glueup and dado I didn't want to waste it. So turn it over do the dado very carefully and when the final product is done, glue a piece of wood over the shallow dados and mitre the end so it looks like it belongs there. WARNING! BAD ASCII ART ATTEMPTED! _________________________________________________________ / Mistake Cover Upper /___________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------- |______________________Dado_________________________________| All in all an enjoyable project. Oh and I used my minty fresh #45 to make the stiles and rails. Did I tell you how I got my #45? Well you see there's this contest and a fellow named Phil was offering a mallet for the best............... Gary Johns OldTool Heaven "RustHunter" http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9147 ---- Start of Message 58123 (thread 25248) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-20 23:40:00 Subject: Re: Uh Oh. I actschually finished something! -----Original Message----- From: Gary P. Johns To: oldtools@l... Date: Friday, 19 February 1999 23:08 Subject: Uh Oh. I actschually finished something! >Yeah I know I finished a project in only 8 months. Waaaaay ahead of >schedule. Congratulations, oh great schedule buster! You mean you ONLY took 8 months! C'mon, fess-up, you DID use a p*w*r tool in there, somewhere! ;-) Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ++++ End of thread 25248 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25249 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58023 (thread 25249) ---- From: b2d@e... (Duke of URLs) Date: 1999-02-19 23:20:00 Subject: The History of Specifications A friend sent this to me and I thought it bore a certain Galootish quality and thought some of the engineering types on the list might like it. I have no idea if it's valid but it does make sense. Keith Bohn ***************************************************************** The History of Specifications The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4ft,8.5in. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? Because that's the way they built them in England, and the US railroads were built by English expatriates. Why did the English people build them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used. Why did "they" use that gauge then? Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing. Okay! Why did the wagons use that odd wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing the wagons would break on some of the old, long distance roads, because that's the spacing of the old wheel ruts. So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in Europe were built by Imperial Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads have been used ever since. And the ruts? The initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagons, were first made by Roman war chariots. Since the chariots were made for or by Imperial Rome they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing. Thus, we have the answer to the original questions. The United State standard railroad gauge of 4 ft, 8.5 in. derives from the original specification (Military Spec) for an Imperial Roman army war chariot. MilSpecs and Bureaucracies live forever. So, the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right. Because the Imperial Roman chariots were made to be just wide enough to accommodate the back-ends of two war horses. ---- Start of Message 58025 (thread 25249) ---- From: b2d@e... (Duke of URLs) Date: 1999-02-19 23:59:00 Subject: Re: The History of Specifications >The famous I.K. Brunnel when building the Great Western Railway thought >thios was a dumb idea and used a 7 foot gauge as he thought this would give >a better ride amongst other things. The GWR continued to use this gauge >for many years until they gave up and conformed with everyone else. >Pat Did anyone see Michael Palin's "Around The World" series? He was in China and midway through a train trip they had to stop and change out the trucks because of a gauge change. Nutin' like that in "Murica that's fer shur. Keith Bohn ---- Start of Message 58028 (thread 25249) ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1999-02-19 17:46:00 Subject: Re: The History of Specifications Duke of URLs wrote: > > >The famous I.K. Brunnel when building the Great Western Railway thought > >thios was a dumb idea and used a 7 foot gauge as he thought this would give > >a better ride amongst other things. The GWR continued to use this gauge > >for many years until they gave up and conformed with everyone else. > >Pat > > Did anyone see Michael Palin's "Around The World" series? He was in > China and midway through a train trip they had to stop and change out > the trucks because of a gauge change. > > Nutin' like that in "Murica that's fer shur. For the most part, no. There are still a few narrow gauge lines in existence, but they are not really part of the "rail network" per se. This wasn't, however, always the case. In fact, many railroads were originally built to different specs. The Erie, for instance, was originally built with a 6' gauge. Once it became evident that the interchange of cargo would be much easier if everyone used the same gauge, they began converting. One railroad (maybe the Erie) actually converted their entire system over in a single day. OT content--the conversion was done by hand, probably using Gandy tools. Ed, in Cincinnati ---- Start of Message 58048 (thread 25249) ---- From: "John McCoy" Date: 1999-02-19 20:11:00 Subject: Re: The History of Specifications On Feb 19, 12:46pm, Ed Bell wrote: > Subject: Re: The History of Specifications > Duke of URLs wrote: > > > > >The famous I.K. Brunnel when building the Great Western Railway thought > > >thios was a dumb idea and used a 7 foot gauge as he thought this would give > > >a better ride amongst other things. The GWR continued to use this gauge > > >for many years until they gave up and conformed with everyone else. > > >Pat > > > > Did anyone see Michael Palin's "Around The World" series? He was in > > China and midway through a train trip they had to stop and change out > > the trucks because of a gauge change. > > > > Nutin' like that in "Murica that's fer shur. > > For the most part, no. There are still a few narrow > gauge lines in existence, but they are not really part > of the "rail network" per se. This wasn't, however, > always the case. In fact, many railroads were > originally built to different specs. The Erie, for > instance, was originally built with a 6' gauge. Once > it became evident that the interchange of cargo would > be much easier if everyone used the same gauge, they > began converting. One railroad (maybe the Erie) > actually converted their entire system over in a single > day. > > OT content--the conversion was done by hand, probably > using Gandy tools. Well, this is way off topic, but I like railroads... In the UK, railroads, with the exception of the GWR as mentioned, standardized on 4' 8.5" very early - probably driven by their suppliers. Brunel's 7' was an excellent idea that the GWR never really took advantage of, anyway. In the US, early railroads were plauged with various forms of provincialism and protectionism, and started with all manner of slightly different gauges (Ohio, for instance, mandated 4'10", while most of the Southern states chose 5'0"), a few RR's chose odd gauges like the Erie's 6'. Lincoln originally had the transcontinental RR bill written to call for wide gauge (still technically superior), but the politics of the civil war forced that to the most common Northern gauge, 4' 8.5", rather than something closer to the Southern gauge. After the civil war, a number of bad accidents, caused by trying to adapt railcars to run on similar gauges, led to the north standardizing on 4' 8.5" (the most famous of these accidents was probably Ashtabula, Ohio). Shortly thereafter the advantages of a standard gauge became enough to force the south to convert - after several months of planning, all the mainlines in the south were converted to 4' 8.5" in one day (and all with hand tools). About this same time an aberant idea arose that it'd be cheaper to build railways on 3' gauge, and quite a lot were built in the 1880's. The problem of interchange immediately came up, and facilities to change trucks were common (one, called a Ramsey transfer, was the essence of simplicity - the tracks were run into a pit, the walls of which had a carrige to catch the edge of the rail car. As the car was carried on the carrige, the trucks just fell off from below. New trucks on the other gauge were then pushed underneath, and the railcar pushed out the other side, picking up the new trucks as it went. All done by hand (or mule) power). The inefficiencies of 3' gauge quickly became apparent, and except in Colorado and a couple of other isolated places, they all went bankrupt or converted to standard gauge by the turn of the century. John ---- Start of Message 58060 (thread 25249) ---- From: STJones911@a... Date: 1999-02-19 22:35:00 Subject: Re: The History of Specifications In a message dated 2/19/99 12:47:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, ed.bell@c... writes: > For the most part, no. There are still a few narrow > gauge lines in existence, but they are not really part > of the "rail network" per se. This wasn't, however, > always the case. In fact, many railroads were > originally built to different specs. The Erie, for > instance, was originally built with a 6' gauge. Once > it became evident that the interchange of cargo would > be much easier if everyone used the same gauge, they > began converting. One railroad (maybe the Erie) > actually converted their entire system over in a single > day. The East Tennessee & Western North Carolina was dual gauge: ||<-- 4' 8-1/2"-->|| ||<--- 3' --->|| || || || || || || || The locomotives ran on three-foot rails throughout their system. About a third of their trackage was dual gauge. Locomotives had couplers that could swing off-center to pull standard-gauge cars (mostly from the Southern Railway). OT Content: Steam locomotives are Galootish as anything. Steve Jones Kokomo IN Still seeking Stanley #64 screwdrivers and Buck Bros. mortise chisels. (No longer seeking a #45; found one.) ++++ End of thread 25249 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25250 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58026 (thread 25250) ---- From: glturner@w... (Gayle Turner) Date: 1999-02-19 16:59:00 Subject: Yearsley Chisels Galoots, Recently two chisels clearly marked "Yearsley Higginsport Ohio" and " RF WADE" Came across my path. I had seen the Yearsley mark before and decided to investigate since I now had the Higginsport, Ohio reference. I contacted the Ohio Historical Society at Columbus Ohio. They searched their data and sent me a photocopy of a William Yearsley son of Sam Yearsley born 1804 in Delaware but made tools in Higginsport, Ohio from1838 to 1860. His son William continued as a partner after Sam died in 1860 until the time of the 1883 directory, from whence this information comes.(History of Brown County,Ohio, 1883) They could not provide data on RF Wade unless I could identify his county of residence. He did not reside in Brown county Ohio. Any input will be appreciated. Any chisel or edge tool collectors interested in a copy of this information give me a ping off the list serv. Gayle Turner ++++ End of thread 25250 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25251 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58034 (thread 25251) ---- From: David Sutton Date: 1999-02-19 12:29:00 Subject: Speaking Of Vises Galoots-- The wooden face vise on my bench stinketh. There's really no room in between the rails to hold any but the narrowest boards vertically, and when I try to hold them in the side of the vise, it wracketh miserably this way and that; I have been thinking I would replace it with an iron one (I like the looks of the Jorgensen with its wooden handle!), but before I do, I wanted to check a few things out with my esteemed galoot colleagues. Thing one.. Given that I have a nice wooden screw and "nut", could I maybe use them to build a better stronger vise? If so, any suggestions for a plan? Thing two. . Is anyone using the Jorgensen vise and loving it (or does somebody perhaps have one that they're NOT using and want to sell?)? Or is somebody using an iron face vise that they really love and it's not a Jorgensen?? And if so what is it?? I'm open to suggestions. Thanks in advance! David ********** David Sutton Sutton Studios P.O. Box 1558 Evanston, IL 60204 847-328-0346 Suttons@e... http://www.suttonstudios.com ---- Start of Message 58040 (thread 25251) ---- From: Jim Lunden Date: 1999-02-19 19:13:00 Subject: RE: Speaking Of Vises David: I use the large Jorgenson vise. I bolted oak boards between the iron faces. All in all it works properly with no surprises. In fact, I haven't thought about this vise for a second from the time I installed it until your message arrived. I guess that means that I like it. Jim Lunden Avon, CT ---- Start of Message 58061 (thread 25251) ---- From: ralph.brendler@a... (Ralph Brendler) Date: 1999-02-19 22:56:00 Subject: Re: Speaking Of Vises Dave Sutton writes: >Thing two. . Is anyone using the Jorgensen vise and loving it (or does >somebody perhaps have one that they're NOT using and want to sell?)? Or is >somebody using an iron face vise that they really love and it's not a >Jorgensen?? And if so what is it?? I've got a Jorgy, and I like it alot. I know that a bunch of folks prefer the quick release mechanism on the Record (a small lever by the screw) to that used on the Jorgy (turn backwards 1/2 turn), but it doesn't bother me a bit. I like the beefy wood handle and deep jaws-- it's a solid piece. Of course, nowadays you can get an Emmert knockoff for only $100 more than the big Jorgy-- if that had been the case ten years ago when I got mine, I probably would've sprung the extra cash for the patternmakers vise. Still, I'm a happy camper with my Jorgy, and would recommend it highly. ralph ---- Start of Message 58086 (thread 25251) ---- From: Chuck Hess Date: 1999-02-20 07:16:00 Subject: Re: Speaking Of Vises Aloha Galootts, We use 4 big Jorgenson vises in our shop. I turned new handles of kiawe wood ( I believe they call this mesquite on the mainland) which really seemed t o improve the tighening ability and definately improved the feel of the vise. They do the job for us. Aloha, Chuck David Sutton wrote: > Galoots-- > > The wooden face vise on my bench stinketh. There's really no room in between > the rails to hold any but the narrowest boards vertically, and when I try to > hold them in the side of the vise, it wracketh miserably this way and that; > > I have been thinking I would replace it with an iron one (I like the > looks of the Jorgensen with its wooden handle!), but before I do, I wanted > to > check a few things out with my esteemed galoot colleagues. > > Thing one.. Given that I have a nice wooden screw and "nut", could I maybe > use them to build a better stronger vise? If so, any suggestions for a plan? > > Thing two. . Is anyone using the Jorgensen vise and loving it (or does > somebody perhaps have one that they're NOT using and want to sell?)? Or is > somebody using an iron face vise that they really love and it's not a > Jorgensen?? And if so what is it?? > > I'm open to suggestions. Thanks in advance! > > David > ********** > David Sutton > Sutton Studios > P.O. Box 1558 > Evanston, IL 60204 > 847-328-0346 > Suttons@e... > http://www.suttonstudios.com > > -- ---- Start of Message 58088 (thread 25251) ---- From: Phil and Debbie Koontz Date: 1999-02-20 00:23:00 Subject: Re: Speaking Of Vises David Sutton writes: (among other things--) >Thing one.. Given that I have a nice wooden screw and "nut", could I >maybe >use them to build a better stronger vise? If so, any suggestions for a >plan? I recently read Scott Landis's book The Workbench Book (it's a library copy, bottomfeeders...), and it has some nice examples of big leg vises with wooden screws. It also shows off Mike Dunbar's twin screw vise for chair making, which (also) has wooden screws. The book has an entire chapter on vises, including making the screws and nuts. I am planning to make at least one big leg vise, but will probably start with a metal screw. I do, in fact, have a little one that I knocked together from scraps; basically oak 2 x 4's and a bench screw, and it does OK; it lines up with my face vise so I can use it for the other end of long sticks. Some of the vises in the book look more like 3 x 10" or so lumber. Bodacious sticks, anyway. Phil Koontz Another day in Kansas ---- Start of Message 58138 (thread 25251) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-02-21 03:40:00 Subject: Re: Speaking Of Vises Phil Koontz wrote: > I am planning to make at least one big leg vise, but will probably start > with a metal screw. I do, in fact, have a little one that I knocked > together from scraps; basically oak 2 x 4's and a bench screw, and it > does OK; it lines up with my face vise so I can use it for the other end > of long sticks. Some of the vises in the book look more like 3 x 10" or > so lumber. Bodacious sticks, anyway. > > Phil Koontz > Another day in Kansas One idea I was wondering about. The problem with a leg vise is keeping the vise parrallel. Couldn't you accomplish this quite well with one of the Veritas twin-screw vises set up on edge? You wouldn't really even need a handle on the bottom screw. Looks to be much stronger than scissors and much easier to deal with than all the other widgets. It looks like this would be a nice setup for getting your dovetails up to a reasonable height for cutting. Roger Books (or is that, clueless newbie? :) ++++ End of thread 25251 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25252 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58035 (thread 25252) ---- From: DaveWolv@a... Date: 1999-02-19 18:40:00 Subject: RIP Inventor of Ductile Iron Just saw this in today's paper (Asbury Park Press, 2/19/1999): Little Silver [NJ] - Albert P. Gagnebin, 90, a metallurgist who invented ductile iron, died Sunday at his home in Jupiter, Fla. He spent his entire career with the International Nickel Company of Canada, Ltd., starting as a research metallurgist in 1932. He became president of the company in 1967 and retired as chairman of the board in 1974, but continued as a director until 1980. He invented ductile iron, which earned him gold medals from the American Foundryman's Society and the American Institute of Mining and Metallurgical Engineers as well as the Grande Medaille d'Honneur and the Ordre Nationiale du Merite (Officier) in France. ... He was a founder of the National Mining Hall of Fame and past president of the International Copper Research Association. He was a graduate of Yale University where he received a degree in mechanical engineering in 1930 and a master's degree in metallurgy in 1932. Born in Torrington, Conn., he lived in Fair Haven and in Red Bank before moving to Little Silver. He also maintained a home in Jupiter. Surviving are his wife of 63 years, Genevieve Hope Gagnebin, ... A memorial service will be held at 11 a.m. tomorrow at St. George's by the River, Rumson. In lieu of flowers, contributions in his memory may be made to Yale University, c/o John M. Sargent, Yale Development Office, PO Box 2038, New Haven, Conn., 06421-2038. RIP ++++ End of thread 25252 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25253 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58036 (thread 25253) ---- From: LLesniak@a... Date: 1999-02-19 18:44:00 Subject: I've got a barn too! Actually, my in-laws have a piece of ground with an abandoned farm on it. The house is in a terrible state of disrepair (my wife and I considered renovating it 15 years ago...its too late now) but the barn isn't too bad. My father-in-law has a burning desire to torch it (pun intended) but I'd like to salvage some of the timber. The construction on this particular barn isn't so great (some post-and-beam with some large poles thrown in) so I don't know that its worth all that much. I'm sure he'd let me salvage as much as I'd like, and I'm going to pull some boards this weekend to plane and see what lies beneath. Given that Pennsylvania is a hardwood state, what could I expect the sheathing of this barn to be? The beams? I know its hard to speculate, and I'm not sure of the age of this barn, but if I'm lucky it may be another great source of free lumber. Any guesses on what was commonly used? ---- Start of Message 58236 (thread 25253) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-23 02:38:00 Subject: Re: I've got a barn too! -----Original Message----- From: LLesniak@a... > Given that Pennsylvania is a hardwood state, what could I >expect the sheathing of this barn to be? The beams? I know its hard to >speculate, and I'm not sure of the age of this barn, but if I'm lucky it may >be another great source of free lumber. > >Any guesses on what was commonly used? Sheathing - might be poplar or hemlock - that's what all the sawmills in my area seem to sell for barn siding - in a discussion with a local sawyer regarding some board-and-batten siding for one of my dad's barns, the sawyer told me that most of the barns in the north-western NJ area were sided with poplar or hemlock. Beams - I've got a few beams from a couple of the barns on my dad's property that have undergone renovation - one is oak, a couple appear to be some sort of fir, not sure what the other is yet. The really old barn is not safe to walk in, so I'm waiting until they take it down before I try to go in and i.d. (and snatch up!) the beams... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) On the road in Philadelphia, PA wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ++++ End of thread 25253 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25254 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58039 (thread 25254) ---- From: Jim Thoreson Date: 1999-02-19 18:26:00 Subject: Receipt of back Digest Just so I don't get multiple copies, I wanted to thank Martin Gardner for forwarding the missing issues to me. Thanks again Jim Thoreson (j_thor@e...) ++++ End of thread 25254 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25255 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58044 (thread 25255) ---- From: "Rodgers Charles" Date: 1999-02-19 19:49:00 Subject: Re: ...Re: A Test Baloon The haberdasher forlornly asks: >Would an embroidered patch that could be sewn on, be >something folks would be interested in? >John, I think this qualifies as a win-win situation. No one has to buy an article of clothing they don't really want, just to get the stylish Galoo logo. And an embroidered patch is a cut above the iron-on type - much more fashionable. In my old USN days, off-the-shelf uniforms had iron-ons, whereas my custom-tailored-in-Hong Kong had embroidered rating badges. Much snazzier. In fact, I have a nice blue blazer that is lacking only a breast pocket crest. T'would be acceptable in your finest establishments (I'm guessin' here, as I never been in one). My vote for the embroidery. Charlie Rodgers Clinton, Maryland >Y'ever try to herd cats? No, but I did have to interpret military intelligence. ++++ End of thread 25255 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25256 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58045 (thread 25256) ---- From: Jack Kamishlian Date: 1999-02-19 19:51:00 Subject: Sow's Ears lottery Gentle GGs, A while back, I related my efforts on trying to improve the peformance of a No. 3 Fulton. If you don't recall, I have 2. I tried to improve the bedding of the frog on one, and compared it to the other, after flattening the soles and sharpening the irons. One has a front knob, and the other doesn't. Had some improvement. Compared them to a No. 3 Stanley, and the Fultons paled in the comparison. Because it's rained No. 3's on me, I don't think I'll ever use these Fultons. Lottery?? You ask. Well I'd like to remove myself from these 2 Fultons. I don't want to sell them, as I won't attest to their performance - other that for soft pine or as paperweights. And I wouldn't want to foist them on any unsuspecting GG without fair warning. So, I'd like to give them away. But to whom?? Hence the lottery. I'm going to use my Casio to pick a random number between 1 and 999. (I know, the Casio gives the number as a decimal. I'll bang it by 1000 to make it a whole number.) And the Galoot that comes closest wins the Fultons. Rules: One entry per Galoot. Lottery is open for a week. Closes February 26 at noon, EST. Must have a bio on file to enter. In case of tie, the earliest one wins (or loses, i.e. is saddled with two planes). Consider this fair warning - if you apply. No costs. I'll absorb shipping. Cheers, Jack in Endwell, NY Whose wife told him yesterday that the sweetest words she's heard were: "I threw them away." ---- Start of Message 58532 (thread 25256) ---- From: Jack Kamishlian Date: 1999-02-26 18:02:00 Subject: Re: Sow's Ears lottery Thanks to all the Galoots that were willing to take the Fultons off my hands - 22 of you. As promised, I got the random number from my Casio today at 12:00 noon. And the number is: 810 And the (un)lucky one is Howard Slack with a guess of 817. It will be going to the P.O. this afternoon. Cheers, Jack in Endwell NY ++++ End of thread 25256 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25257 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58046 (thread 25257) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-19 20:03:00 Subject: Plow threads: BobBaker: HELP! Greetings GG's Well, I've dead ended. I'm now sure that I want to talk to Bob Baker about rebuilding threads, but I can't find his number on teh EN, it's wrong in the MWTCA handbook, Tom Witte isn't answering either phone, and the operator assistance people in MI say they don't have a RObert Baker in Mattawan even though the handbook says that's where he is.... SOMEBODY must know how to get ahold of this enigma TIA Tom ---- Start of Message 58562 (thread 25257) ---- From: williams@i... (Larry Williams) Date: 1999-02-26 23:42:00 Subject: Re: Plow threads: BobBaker: HELP! Tom writes: >Well, I've dead ended. I'm now sure that I want to talk to Bob Baker If anyone lives in the Area Code 207 area they could try (207) 363-6647. It's a number I wrote on the back of his card but that was before the big area code shuffle. Larry Williams Clark & Williams http://www.planemaker.com ++++ End of thread 25257 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25258 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58047 (thread 25258) ---- From: glturner@w... (Gayle Turner) Date: 1999-02-19 20:10:00 Subject: Wood from barn Galoots, Question was what type of wood could be expected in an old barn. If it is a typical pegged barn one could guess oak,or elm for timbers and poplar for siding. Surely the type of wood used would vary based on the area but the barn builders would have been somewhat selective and not thrilled to work difficult and extra hard woods. In some areas walnut or pine would have been a possible siding wood. Gayle Turner ---- Start of Message 58051 (thread 25258) ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 1999-02-19 21:09:00 Subject: Re: Wood from barn At 03:10 PM 2/19/99 -0500, Gayle Turner wrote: >Galoots, > Question was what type of wood could be expected in an old barn. If it >is a typical pegged barn one could guess oak,or elm for timbers and >poplar for siding. Surely the type of wood used would vary based on the >area but the barn builders would have been somewhat selective and not >thrilled to work difficult and extra hard woods. In some areas walnut or >pine would have been a possible siding wood. > Around here in PA, it was oak or chestnut. The earlier barns had chestnut for siding as well, the later ones are all pretty much pine. Tony ________________________________________________________ One's an interest, two's a collection, three's an obsession! ________________________________________________________ ++++ End of thread 25258 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25259 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58049 (thread 25259) ---- From: thomt@u... Date: 1999-02-19 20:27:00 Subject: WTB #40 beech knob Scored a sweetheart #40 at the M-WTCA Peachmeet. Blade looked unused! Only $40 which around here is a gloat. Only problem is rosewood tote and homemade walnut knob. So, because I like it's looks, I'll put on a transitional tote. In fact I think the #40 is about the sexiest of the planes, must be that curvacious, swoopy tote! :-) But I digress. All I need is a beech knob. (would consider knob and tote in a package deal) Thanks in advance Thom Trail GAloot ++++ End of thread 25259 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25260 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58052 (thread 25260) ---- From: tom thornton Date: 1999-02-20 01:41:00 Subject: #27, dated 1867 with 3/8 lig-vit Friend has a Stanley #27 dated 1867 but has a 3/8 sole screwed to bottom. I assume its lig???-vit??? ( cant pronounce or spell it either) but its dark, hard and smooth. He has had it 40 years, said was his dads. Was wondering, anybody have any idea who might of affixed the piece to the plane. The prior owner, supplier, Stanley. or all of the above. How does if affect the value of the plane ???? BTW He says it still planes fine !!! ++++ End of thread 25260 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25261 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58053 (thread 25261) ---- From: Joe and Rhonda DiPietro Date: 1999-02-19 21:26:00 Subject: RE TEST BALLOON My vote: the polo with embroidered logo...a little poetry with a little galoot art...not bad, huh! Joe D. ++++ End of thread 25261 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25262 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58054 (thread 25262) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-02-19 21:26:00 Subject: RE: BobBaker: HELP! Galoots, On the "hunt" for Bob Baker, I believe he has moved to a new facility shared with Fred Armbruster located near York, ME., along Rt. 1. Bob is a professionally paid, highly sought after conservationist who may not be able to afford to spend too much time "shop talking". He is a great guy, a member of the major tool clubs, has traveled to the PATINA Spring Extravaganza to setup as a dealer and keeps his privacy close as far as I can tell. My conversations with him were enlightening because he told me what the process he used was, but not how he did it and not all the products used. From my dealings with other major conservators, those processes are competitive or proprietary secrets. He also will spend more time on an item or repair than most Galoots spend in there shop in a decade. Karl ++++ End of thread 25262 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25263 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58055 (thread 25263) ---- From: "Michael" Date: 1999-02-19 21:33:00 Subject: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. Dan Indrigo's item on The Book of Trades made me have a look at the copy I have, and having glanced at the item on cabinetmakers I then went on to look at other crafts till I came to the Shipwright. This then made me get out my book on Chatham Dockyard to refresh my memory on the old style of boat construction, and having read of the amount of timber used in the construction of these 'wooden walled' men-of-war I was left wondering what would have been left if they had continued using such amounts of freshly felled timber for another hundred years. Having read these details again I thought that they should be shared with like minded galoots who would appreciate the work involved:- Chatham Dockyard was perhaps the main naval dockyard where the old men of war were constructed. From 1755 ships were rated according to their size, {and therefore the amount of timber used in their construction} and number of guns carried. 'Ships of the Line' were First Rate - 100 guns & 3 decks; Second Rate - 90 guns & 3 decks; and Third Rate - 74 0r 64 guns & 2 decks. Then came the 'Frigates', Forth Rate - 50 guns & 2 decks; Fifth Rate - 36 or 32 guns & 1 deck; and Sixth Rate - 28 or 24 guns & 1 deck. Chatham Dockyard, one of six yards, began building 'wooden walled' ships over 400 years ago and makes use of 26 trades. The first stage in construction was the 'laying off' of the shapes of the various timbers full size on the Mould Loft floor from which Shipwrights made the templates. Originally the ships were constructed in shallow sloping trenches on a bed of stone or timber to make it easier to launch the hull into the river. As it was normal to use 'green' timber for the ribs they needed to be what was called 'Seasoned in Frame', this was where the frame was left for several years before it was planked - {which is why there were usually several score ships in various stages of construction spread out along the length of the river Medway}. The actual time taken to construct the hull of a ship was around six months, and once launched it then went on to be 'fitted out' with the masts, spars and rigging, together with the guns and all the rest which went to make up a fully seaworthy man of war. During the first 300 years of shipbuilding huge amounts of freshly felled timber were used. There are numerous sea shanties {songs}, which include the line 'Hearts of Oak', refering to the oak used for the ships frames. To construct a Third Rate Ship of the Line {74 guns & 2 decks} would have required up to 3,800 oak trees of about 80 years growth, and from about 1615 to 1765 Chatham Dockyard built over 130 ships, nearly 200,000 oak trees, - and remember Chatham was but one of six naval boatbuilding yards. Oak was the traditional timber used in the construction of the ships frame, outer planking and the decks, whilst fir was used for the masts and spars, whilst, on occasions, elm and beech was used in place of oak. Fir, which traditionally came from the Baltic, had to be kept wet till needed, for if the resin in the timber was allowed to dry out its natural springiness would be lost and any mast 'stepped' {fitted} into an ocean-going warship would be liable to snap instead of bend. To counteract this the trunks were stored under salt water in specially dug mast ponds till ready to be turned into masts and spars; oak, on the other hand, requires the opposite treatment, for the sap to dry out before it can be used to its full potential. The first stages of conversion of an oak trunk was its sawing, in 1758 there were 43 pairs of sawyers cutting out frames, planks and deck beams. To create a single frame or rib for a man of war needs six to eight curved timbers joined together, and remember there needs to be another identical rib for the other side of the ship, but to compound this one has to take into consideration the change in profile of every pair of ribs fitted from the bow to the stern. The planking, or strakes, was slightly less of a problem, if you accepted the fact that some of them were up to eight inches thick. The only way they could be fitted to the ribs was first to steam them so they would bend, one hour for every inch of thickness being the rule of thumb. Once pliable enough they would then be bolted to the rib to form a carvel type hull, {where the timbers are fitted flush}. Once the planking had been fitted it would then be caulked to make the hull watertight before being launched, or 'floated out' into the river Medway to be taken round to the fitting-out dock for the masts to be stepped and the ship fitted out. And when fully fitted out and ready to go to war a Third Rate ship-of-the-line, such as the one mentioned here, would have had a crew of about 650 men. To obtain a better idea of what such a man-of-war would look like I would suggest you get hold of the multimedia CD Rom by Dorling Kindersley titled 'STOWAWAY', it is extremely good. I hope you found the above of interest, the Mayflower would have been built the same way. Mike Field. ---- Start of Message 58108 (thread 25263) ---- From: Walter Barry Date: 1999-02-20 19:34:00 Subject: RE: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. It's amazing there was any left in America, certainly not old growth. It wasn't the cabinetmakers and the barn builders. The wooden ships consumed a lot, especially the best old growth for masts. But no industries probably consumed more old growth hardwood then the mining industry and building the railroads. Millions of railroad ties, not to mention those great trestle bridges. Walter ---- Start of Message 58119 (thread 25263) ---- From: Datoolfool@a... Date: 1999-02-20 23:11:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. One of the earliest industries in America was the burning of trees for potash. Now that really makes you cringe. Old growth forest being burned for the ash!! Ouch, ouch, ouch. ---- Start of Message 58127 (thread 25263) ---- From: Eric Breitenberger Date: 1999-02-20 14:25:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. Mike wrote about 18th century shipbuilding in England ... and I would like to add: Little to do with OldTools, except that it's been mentioned here before - if you're at all interested in this sort of thing, the books by Patrick O'Brien are most highly recommended. There are about 17 or 18 books in O'Brien's Aubrey/Maturin series of historical novels. I warn you - once you get hooked, you will want to read them all. Then, like me, you will start a second pass. -Eric in Fairbanks, Alaska ---- Start of Message 58135 (thread 25263) ---- From: BohlB@a... Date: 1999-02-21 02:19:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. In a message dated 2/20/99 5:17:10 PM Central Standard Time, Datoolfool@a... writes: > One of the earliest industries in America was the burning of trees for potash. > > Now that really makes you cringe. Old growth forest being burned for the > ash!! I've heard that the production of charcoal for the iron industry was a major player in the loss of forests in both the US and England. Bill Bohl ---- Start of Message 58145 (thread 25263) ---- From: Mike Yazel Date: 1999-02-21 13:46:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. Datoolfool@a... wrote: > One of the earliest industries in America was the burning of trees for > potash. > Now that really makes you cringe. Old growth forest being burned for > the > ash!! > > Ouch, ouch, ouch. > And for charcoal to fuel the iron smelters! Mike > -- ---- Start of Message 58151 (thread 25263) ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 1999-02-21 19:32:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. At 09:33 PM 2/19/99 -0000, you wrote: >This then made me get out my book on Chatham Dockyard to refresh >my memory on the old style of boat construction, and having read >of the amount of timber used in the construction of these 'wooden >walled' men-of-war I was left wondering what would have been left >if they had continued using such amounts of freshly felled timber >for another hundred years. Heck, they did chop down all the trees. That's one of the reasons that there is so much masonry construction in Britain, though perhaps the great fire of London had some influence. They came here and started lopping down our trees too. Didn't finish the job, though. But Weyerhauser did. Fortunately, they grow back >I hope you found the above of interest, the Mayflower would have been built >the same way. I had ancestors, the brothers Winslow, on that cruise. Booted righ' out'a England, they was! ---- Start of Message 58155 (thread 25263) ---- From: "Rodney Myrvaagnes" Date: 1999-02-21 17:45:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. Well, sorta kinda grow back. It is true that a lot of New England has reforested, but the scrubby litttle second-growth trees will never produce a stump you could "stand a brace of oxen on" as did the first growth. On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 11:32:03 -0800, Jim Nelson wrote: > They came here and >started lopping down our trees too. Didn't finish the job, though. >But Weyerhauser did. Fortunately, they grow back Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a Associate Editor Electronic Products 20+ years without a Car, a TV, or a website ---- Start of Message 58205 (thread 25263) ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1999-02-22 14:54:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. GG's: During it's years of occupation, England essentially deforested Ireland, cutting down it's trees for ships. To this day trees are relatively rare on the island. The Republic has a reforestation program now for growing sitka spruce, which evidently grows like a weed over there. Ed ---- Start of Message 58206 (thread 25263) ---- From: "EFISHER.US.ORACLE.COM" Date: 1999-02-22 14:54:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. Not just hardwoods of course. On a recent excursion downeast, I read of John Adam's trip to Pownalborough when he was an attorney, I think it was in the early 1760's. As you may recall, Maine was then part of Massachusetts Colony. Mr. Adams described to rigours of the journey and once when he dismounted described a hemlock which was cut as being more than 7 feet across at the trunk and 70 feet long to the first branches and around 140 feet tall. While this is not large compared to old growth trees on the left coast, hemlocks and pines of this dimension are seldom seen these days. ed ---- Start of Message 58209 (thread 25263) ---- From: "Mcbride,C" Date: 1999-02-22 18:25:00 Subject: RE: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. Salutes Galoots, I believe it is the case that Ireland is the least forested country in Europe. Cillian McBride > -----Original Message----- > From: Ed Bell [SMTP:ed.bell@c...] > Sent: 22 February 1999 14:54 > To: A Bunch of Galoots > Subject: Re: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. > > GG's: > > During it's years of occupation, England essentially > deforested Ireland, cutting down it's trees for ships. > To this day trees are relatively rare on the island. > The Republic has a reforestation program now for > growing sitka spruce, which evidently grows like a weed > over there. > > Ed > -- > Ed Bell (ed.bell@c...) > Information Management Group, Convergys Corp. > > Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of my > employer. > > -- ---- Start of Message 58211 (thread 25263) ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1999-02-22 18:38:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. Cillian Mcbride wrote: > > Salutes Galoots, > I believe it is the case that Ireland is the least forested country in > Europe. I've been told that Spain is quite treeless, too, to the extent in some areas that is has been turned into a virtual desert. Ed ---- Start of Message 58218 (thread 25263) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-02-22 21:25:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. Ed Bell wrote: > GG's: > > During it's years of occupation, England essentially > deforested Ireland, > > Ed > -- > I was told on the Isle of Harris in the Outer Hebrides that they had once been forested, but that the Vikings (long term settlers there) had deforested the Hebrides for timber for their longships and charcoal for their fires. They have a reforestration project going , but it looked a bit strained when we were there 15 years ago. On the Atlantic side they put little sheet metal shields buried in the ground around each pine seedling, lest the winter gales rip the seedlings out. ---- Start of Message 58259 (thread 25263) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-23 08:15:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. > I've been told that Spain is quite treeless, too, to > the extent in some areas that is has been turned into a > virtual desert. > > Ed I don't know the time-scale, but many English war-bows were made from Spanish Yew. So they obviously had some tree at one time. BugBear. ---- Start of Message 58480 (thread 25263) ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1999-02-25 22:40:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. ** Reply to note from "Michael" Fri, 19 Feb 1999 21:33:54 -0000 In the 17th century when the English and Dutch were fighting for command of the sea lanes the English had a powerful weapon, their oak hulls. The Dutch had no suitable source of oak and their ships were much less stout. It was said that the Dutch ships were pounded to pieces before the fight had gone out of their crews. Also the spruce of North America was much prized for masts, at least so I have read. ernie fisch ---- Start of Message 58526 (thread 25263) ---- From: "Michael" Date: 1999-02-26 17:25:00 Subject: RE: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. > > One of the earliest industries in America was the burning of trees > for potash. > > > > Now that really makes you cringe. Old growth forest being > burned for the ash!! > > > I've heard that the production of charcoal for the iron industry > was a major player in the loss of forests in both the US and > England. > > Bill Bohl > > -- Charcoal was certainly the main source of heat for the iron industry, and because the raw material, ie. wood, was beginning to run short the industry had to look for a replacement, hence the introduction of coal. This is why, in the early days, iron and later steel foundries tended to be built in close proximity to a coalmine, often the mine being owned by foundry owners. But on the subject of charcoal, I will be talking about this in the near future. Mike. ---- Start of Message 58527 (thread 25263) ---- From: "Michael" Date: 1999-02-26 17:25:00 Subject: RE: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. > Heck, they did chop down all the trees. That's one of the reasons > that there is so much masonry construction in Britain, though > perhaps the great fire of London had some influence. They came here > and started lopping down our trees too. Didn't finish the job, > though. But Weyerhauser did. Fortunately, they grow back > > -------------------------- Actually you are correct regarding the great fire of London. It seems that up to that time timber was the main material used in the construction of buildings in London, simply because wood was the easiest material to use, cheap and a lot of it. One of the chief problems in London at that time was the lack of any planning, if there was a space then fill it with some jerry-built building and rent it out. So every available space soon became filled in, to the extent that at ground level there was room to perhaps take a cart through, but the first floor was built so as to jut out towards the middle of the road, so that by the time the third story was built it was possible for people living in the opposite house to be able to lean out of the window and shake hands with you. The actual fire by itself when it started was just like any other fire but the way the buildings had been built created a through draft at street level, and as the fire heated up air was drawn inwards to act rather like a set of bellows, and once it had taken hold there was nothing anybody could do - even today with all modern technology I doubt if it could have been stopped. Once the fire had burnt itself out the King passed a law that all buildings built to replace those burnt down were to be constructed of stone, or the newfangled material known as brick, - so London's loss was the brickmakes gain. Mike. ---- Start of Message 58528 (thread 25263) ---- From: "Michael" Date: 1999-02-26 17:25:00 Subject: RE: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. > > Michael, > > I found it of great interest. > > Do you know what types of saws they used to cut the curves? > Cutting a curved shape out of thick timber must have been fun. > > Also the planks on a hull are not rectangular but somewhat > crescent shaped so that they match when fitted around a hull of > varying circumference. Do you know how they shaped the planks? > If by planes, this must have been an immense amount of work given > the thickness of the planks. > > Regards, > > John Lederer > Oregon, Wisconsin > > > ------------------- Oh heck, now you've set me thinking. Ten minutes later. Having now thought about this I can only give you my personal opinion as to how things were done, so don't take what I say as gospel. With timbers being so long it is quite possible over a long run to get the saw to cut in a slight curve, {we both know that from personal experience, ESPECIALLY when we are trying to make a STRAIGHT CUT}. Then to finish off the shape to the profile required the Shipwright would have used the adze. I have been told on good authority by old men who used to work on wooden boatbuilding that they used to watch as apprentices the older men having competitions to see how many shaves they could take off a matchstick. And remembering that the razor sharp adze is used towards the foot whilst standing on the timber being shaped they said that a good adzeman could take up to twenty shaves off a matchstick - and I believe them. Shaping of the planks would also have been done by the adze once they had been steamed to shape. Planes in my opinion being too small to cope with the work involved. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it till someone comes up with a more convincing answer. Yours, Mike. ---- Start of Message 58539 (thread 25263) ---- From: Carl W Muhlhausen Date: 1999-02-26 18:03:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder any hardwood was left growing in England. Michael wrote: > > Once the fire had burnt itself out the King passed a law that all buildings > built to replace those burnt down were to be constructed of stone, or the > newfangled material known as brick, - so London's loss was the brickmakes > gain. > > Mike. > When did plaster become the material of choice for interior walls? I once read an article on walls and it mentioned the fire of London (not sure it there was more than one), and how the introduction of plaster cut down the danger of house fires tremendously. Carl ++++ End of thread 25263 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25264 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58058 (thread 25264) ---- From: Steve Clark Date: 1999-02-19 22:13:00 Subject: re:timber framing Greetings Galoots! I have been taken by the notion of building (or having built) a timber frame home. I have a few wooded acres with a pond that begs for a new home. Does anyone have experience or sources for information about this now revived art? I live in Alabama and most of the sources I've discovered on the web are located far North or West from me. I guess I'll have to add a slick or twelve to the shopping cart now ; ) Steve Clark Madison AL ---- Start of Message 58066 (thread 25264) ---- From: "Bruce Thacker" Date: 1999-02-20 00:09:00 Subject: re:timber framing -----Original Message----- From: Steve Clark > >I have been taken by the notion of building (or having built) a timber >frame home. I have a few wooded acres with a pond that begs for a new >home. Does anyone have experience or sources for information about this >now revived art? I live in Alabama and most of the sources I've >discovered on the web are located far North or West from me. > Steve: Suggest you use your favorite search engine and search on TIMBER FRAMING. You might also look into one of the following sources. Goshen Timber Frames in Franklin, North Carolina http://www.timberframemag.com/ Timber Framing Guild of North America http://www.tfguild.org/index.html Timber Frame Business Council http://www.timberframe.org/ Good Luck! Bruce Thacker El Paso, Tx ++++ End of thread 25264 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25265 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58062 (thread 25265) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-02-19 23:22:00 Subject: Or in the US for that matter Mike Field once again provides some very interesting stuff to read : ... >To construct a Third Rate Ship of the Line {74 guns & 2 decks} would have >required up to 3,800 oak trees of about 80 years growth, and from about 1615 >to 1765 Chatham Dockyard built over 130 ships, nearly 200,000 oak trees, - >and remember Chatham was but one of six naval boatbuilding yards. ... I came across a similar statistic while reading Robert Grimshaw's "Grimshaw on Saws" : "The importance of scientific and economical timber-cutting may be conceded when it is asserted that the annual value of the wood, lumber and timber crop of America is a billion dollars ($1,000,000,000), or four times that of our wheat crop." This was written in 1880. I don't know how much a tree cost back then, but this must represent quite a few trees per year... Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 58064 (thread 25265) ---- From: Kenneth Stagg Date: 1999-02-19 23:55:00 Subject: Re: Or in the US for that matter Paul Pedersen wrote: > > "The importance of scientific and economical timber-cutting > may be conceded when it is asserted that the annual value > of the wood, lumber and timber crop of America is a billion > dollars ($1,000,000,000), or four times that of our wheat > crop." > > This was written in 1880. I don't know how much a tree cost > back then, but this must represent quite a few trees per year... > I don't know about the percentages, but the 1880's saw a lot of railroad building, with entire forests denuded for sleepers. I wonder what the United States' GNP was that year? One source has it at only $515,000,000 in 1960, so it'd probably be fair to think that it was substantially lower in the 1880's. True, lumber used for non-consumer use wouldn't be included in the GNP, but a high percentage should still be a signal of importance. -Ken ---- Start of Message 58208 (thread 25265) ---- From: Jerry Davis Date: 1999-02-22 16:58:00 Subject: Re: Or in the US for that matter In <3.0.1.32.19990219182202.006f14bc@p...>, on 02/19/99 at 06:22 PM, Paul Pedersen said: ..snip... > of the wood, lumber and timber crop of America is a billion > dollars ($1,000,000,000), or four times that of our wheat > crop." >This was written in 1880. I don't know how much a tree cost back then, >but this must represent quite a few trees per year... Lumber cut in the United States - 1905 Softwood - 24.9 billion bf Hardwood - 5.6 billion bf Total 30.5 billion bf (Source USDA Forest Service - Circular 52) Jerry ...thats a lot of trees.... ---- Start of Message 58239 (thread 25265) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-02-23 03:23:00 Subject: Re: Or in the US for that matter Jerry Davis provides : >Lumber cut in the United States - 1905 > >Softwood - 24.9 billion bf >Hardwood - 5.6 billion bf > >Total 30.5 billion bf > >(Source USDA Forest Service - Circular 52) I just found this interesting information at : http://nrcan.gc.ca/cfs/proj/iepb/nfdp/frames_f.html For Canada, year 1995, industrial lumber cut (approx) : softwood - 160M cubic meters - 68 billion bf hardwood - 30M cubic meters - 13 billion bf total : 81 billion bf I guess we still haven't learned much. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 58244 (thread 25265) ---- From: Lodley@a... Date: 1999-02-23 04:01:00 Subject: Re: Or in the US for that matter Robert Barlow of the price guide fame writes that a typical American iron foundry in the early 1800's, for an 18-week run producing 360 tons of hollow ware and useful articles of all sorts, needed 2,130 cords of wood for the charcoal. Was anything left standing within miles of these if they continued on these cycles? Or did they move about to be in easy reach of the wood supply? Lloyd Henley ---- Start of Message 58281 (thread 25265) ---- From: Bill Neely Date: 1999-02-23 09:58:00 Subject: Re: Or in the US for that matter Rule of thumb for a woodlot is one cord per acre per year - sustainable. Bill Neely Lodley@a... wrote: > > Robert Barlow of the price guide fame writes that a typical American > iron > foundry in the early 1800's, for an 18-week run producing 360 tons of hollow > ware and useful articles of all sorts, needed 2,130 cords of wood for the > charcoal. Was anything left standing within miles of these if they continued > on these cycles? Or did they move about to be in easy reach of the wood > supply? > > Lloyd Henley > > -- ---- Start of Message 58285 (thread 25265) ---- From: eoh@k... Date: 1999-02-23 18:40:00 Subject: Re: Or in the US for that matter From: Esther Heller eoh@k... At 640 acres/square mile that is less than 4 square miles, so the region didn't _have_ to be deforested to maintain the foundry. For the metric folks, 1 hectare = ~ 2.5 acres. I believe similar rules of thumb for woodlots exist in the late 19th century farm manuals I have a couple reprints of (ie this isn't a recent conclusion). Bill said: Rule of thumb for a woodlot is one cord per acre per year - sustainable. commenting on what Lloyd said: > Robert Barlow of the price guide fame writes that a typical American > iron > foundry in the early 1800's, for an 18-week run producing 360 tons of hollow > ware and useful articles of all sorts, needed 2,130 cords of wood for the > charcoal. Was anything left standing within miles of these if they continued > on these cycles? Or did they move about to be in easy reach of the wood > supply? ---- Start of Message 58319 (thread 25265) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-02-23 23:43:00 Subject: Re: Or in the US for that matter On Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:01:08 EST Lodley@a... writes: > Robert Barlow of the price guide fame writes that a typical >American iron foundry in the early 1800's, for an 18-week run producing 360 tons of >hollow ware and useful articles of all sorts, needed 2,130 cords of wood for >the charcoal. Was anything left standing within miles of these if they >continued on these cycles? Or did they move about to be in easy reach of the >wood supply? > There were several furnaces built over in the Shenandoah Valley that were operated from the early 19th century (or maybe a bit before) until my fellow Ohioan Phillip Sheriden destroyed them during the Civil War. The owner named them after his daughters, Elizabeth furnace was rebuilt after the war and operated for a while--it remains in a park today. These furnaces were spread along the valley every twenty miles or so, I expect that one consideration was to allow for enough forest between them to keep the furnaces supplied with charcoal. According to the information the park service provides charcoal was made and sold to the furnace operators by independent contractors, each of whom had an area staked out in the nearby mountains. I assume these men were white, or maybe emancipated negroes though few Negroes were emancipated in Virginia while still healthy enough to work. The limestone and iron ore were also obtained locally, which is what made it possible to situate the furnaces there. There is still lots of slag left over at the furnace locations. Anyways, I don't know if the charcoal makers used renewable forestry practices, but these furnaces were put out of business first by destruction in war, and later by competition with better technology. I don't know if they would have run out of trees or not. As an aside, the B & O railroad was one of the few railroads to leave forest growing along it's right-of-way because the B & O burned coal, not wood. There is a tiny stand of Old Growth Forest on one side of the old B & O tracks in the Potomac State Forest in Western Maryland. 35 years ago there was a lot more but the State of Maryland has had 80% of the Potomac State forest cut since then. In Maryland, deforested (aka 'harvested') areas are not replanted--they are allowed to grow back from stump sprouts. So, we can look forward to an abundant supply of soft maple for the next generation--that seems to grow back the fastest. ---- Start of Message 58357 (thread 25265) ---- From: Ed_Balko@E... Date: 1999-02-24 13:58:00 Subject: Re: Or in the US for that matter Doug wrote: "In Maryland, deforested (aka 'harvested') areas are not replanted--they are allowed to grow back from stump sprouts. So, we can look forward to an abundant supply of soft maple for the next generation--that seems to grow back the fastest." I've been told that black cherry is one of the first trees species to repopulat e cut-over areas in the Eastern US, due in part to the seeds being distibuted widely by birds. The fellow who mentioned this to me also thought the abundance of cherry lumber from Pennsylvania was a consequence of the trees which had reforested railroad rights of way, cut over at the turn of the century (last time round) now being of commercial lumbering size. Comments from the Porch? Ed Balko Middletown, NJ Plenty of black cherry trees here too ---- Start of Message 58376 (thread 25265) ---- From: Sanford Moss Date: 1999-02-24 18:06:00 Subject: Re: Or in the US for that matter Ed Balko wrote: "I've been told that black cherry is one of the first trees species to repopulate cut-over areas in the Eastern US, due in part to the seeds being distibuted widely by birds. The fellow who mentioned this to me also thought the abundance of cherry lumber from Pennsylvania was a consequence of the trees which had reforested railroad rights of way, cut over at the turn of the century (last time round) now being of commercial lumbering size." "Comments from the Porch?" Ed is right about cherry (in its many forms) being an adventitious, early succession stage tree, that invades open spaces. Birds certainly help by passing the seeds through their digestive tracts and dropping them in clearing edges (along stone walls and fences, for example). These "edge" cherries tend to grow pretty irregularly as they compete with neighboring trees for light and nutrients--they tend to be crooked & twisted. The famous stands of Pennsylvania cherry are distributed widely through the growing forest, and have more uniform growth conditions, producing the straight trunks we lust after. They are definitely not "edge" trees. A former Penn State MS in Foresty, turned furniture maker, once told me that the best Pennsylvania cherry grows at elevations above 1000 ft (in the Allegheny Mts). Trees above this elevation don't develop the "pitch pockets" that are characteristic of cherry growing lower down. Sandy **************************************** smoss@u... http://134.88.12.107/wworking.htm Phone (508) 999-8218 Fax (508) 999-8196 **************************************** ---- Start of Message 58423 (thread 25265) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-02-25 04:19:00 Subject: Re: Or in the US for that matter On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:58:02 -0500 Ed_Balko@E... writes: > > >Doug wrote: > >"In Maryland, deforested (aka 'harvested') areas are not >replanted--they are allowed to grow back from stump sprouts. > So, we can look forward to an abundant supply of soft maple >for the next generation--that seems to grow back the fastest." > > >I've been told that black cherry is one of the first trees species to >repopulate cut-over areas in the Eastern US, due in part to the >seeds being distibuted widely by birds. The fellow who mentioned >this to me also thought the abundance of cherry lumber from >Pennsylvania was a consequence of the trees which had >reforested railroad rights of way, cut over at the turn of the century >... I've been to several areas in the state forests in Western Maryland and at least there soft maple was practically the only thing growing in the areas 15-25 years after the cut. The old growth in the area was pedominantly oak but there were a few 100+ ft tall maples and basswood. I don't recall seeing any black cherry anywhere out there. Maybe it has always been scarce in that neck of the woods so there simply weren't enugh cherry pits in the bird poop to do any good. My guide out there, a forest ecologist named Daniel Boone, has said that the MD dept of Natural Resources was expecting roughly the same mix of trees as had been in the original forest to grow back from the stump sprouts but in practice the soft maples came back fast enough to crowd most everything else out. Aside from the sheer size of the trees the other notable difference between the remaining old growth and the harvested areas was that there was abundant topsoil in the old growth areas. Even twenty five years after 'harvest' the ground in a 'managed' area consisted of gravel with a thin layer of leaves on top. What happened to the topsoil? Well, we have this problem out here in the Cheapeake Bay called turbidity.... ++++ End of thread 25265 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25266 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58063 (thread 25266) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-02-19 23:31:00 Subject: RE: OLDTOOLS digest 3866 Doug McLerran writes : >Brace-wrenching galoots, >I recently saw in a catalog (Lee Valley?) a brace bit that is a 3/8" square >drive for sockets. Better yet, get yourself a Miller's Falls No 900 brace. It's shallow (adjustable) chuck has two jaws with 120 deg notches in them, just right to fit onto a hexagonal head. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ++++ End of thread 25266 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25267 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58068 (thread 25267) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-20 00:36:00 Subject: Gallots, book your flights now!! Calling all Blue Blazer Specials...... Mark your callender for July 17'th 1999. Call in all your frequent flyer miles and get thy asses to Hillsboro, NH. Be there for the last (as we now know it. ) Crane's Auction. I'f you've ever been you know what this one promises to be. If you have never been, then do not let this one slip by you! John, Who will be bringing a smoker again. ( A _ big_ one this time, though..... :-) ++++ End of thread 25267 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25268 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58070 (thread 25268) ---- From: carlwshp Date: 1999-02-20 01:00:00 Subject: Consolidated Tool Works Inc. Hello everyone, anyone every heard of this tool co. found the name on a 7 1/4" block plane, looks like a #210 body, #210 lever cap, with a #9 1/2" depth adjuster, anyone ever come across anything like this. Thanks Carl Murphy Eastport, Maine ++++ End of thread 25268 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25269 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58071 (thread 25269) ---- From: Howard Slack Date: 1999-02-20 03:42:00 Subject: Bio: Howard Slack I have been on the list for a while now, after attending the old tools meet at Ron Harper's place in Indiana a while ago, and also since I work with one Steve Jones, another galoot. 'Vital' data points: Howard Slack hnslack@i... RR5 Box 241KK Peru IN 46970 Occupation: Computer systems analyst (not real title, but close enough) Family: Wife Susie and 11 (soon 12) children - Hannah, Reuben, Rebekah, Chavah, Mark, Shoshannah, Joel, Joanna, Jordan, Leah, Keila. (one wife, no twins, no adoptions) Ages of children are from 22 down to 3. My lovely wife is obviously quite busy with homemaking, and all the more with homeschooling. The kids take a lot of the responsibilities for laundry, cooking, etc. Interests: Family, church, learning Hebrew (although in spurts), music, woodworking, 4H leadership. We are quite a musical family, with violins in the 1/10, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and full sizes, along with 2 violas and a cello. Also piano, trumpet, flute, guitars, ukulele, and a couple banjos (I am the banjo player - everyone else would like to play but they're just too embarassed to admit it). Our musical taste is also pretty diverse, including baroque, classical, Christian, Jewish klezmer, bluegrass, cowboy western, Irish/Scottish and Cajun fiddling, bagpipes and accordian, Scott Joplin rags and Sousa marches, ... In fact, we like most anything musical (which obviously excludes rock, disco, and especially rap). My opinion on instruments is somewhat galootish - I figure there is nothing wrong with an electric guitar that a good old blackout wouldn't cure. (Chet Atkins and Merle Travis are exempted from the above condemnation). Woodworking interests: I collect wood (and am a member of the IWCS - International Wood Collectors' Society), and enjoy turning wooden eggs on the lathe. Eggs are a good way to display the various kinds of wood and their grains. I also try to do some light furniture, boxes, shelves, etc. Through reading various books and starting to collect certain tools, I am starting to get worked up to the idea of making a violin. I also am interested in making fine handtools for my own use. 3-4 of the children have been in the 4-H woodworking project and have done quite well, using handtools for the most part. Several of the children and I are also in a local woodcarving club. I *don't* collect tools, but I sure seem to have a lot of them. My wife might start thinking I do collect them, but I'm pretty sure that's just a simple misunderstanding. So far I have enjoyed the group and gotten some good answers to questions, although it is a somewhat daunting task to stay on top of the flood of email messages. ---- Start of Message 58081 (thread 25269) ---- From: sirotich@W... (Eddie Sirotich) Date: 1999-02-20 06:07:00 Subject: Re: Bio: Howard Slack >Family: Wife Susie and 11 (soon 12) children - Hannah, Reuben, Rebekah, >Chavah, Mark, Shoshannah, Joel, Joanna, Jordan, Leah, Keila. (one wife, >no twins, no adoptions) Ages of children are from 22 down to 3. Welcome aboard Howard, I thought that I have many kids (only 4!) but now I see that I still have a long way to go! Best regards, Eddie Sirotich ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Adria Tools - High Quality Dovetail Saws http://www.woodworking.com/adria ---- Start of Message 58087 (thread 25269) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-20 12:19:00 Subject: Re: Bio: Howard Slack >Woodworking interests: >I collect wood (and am a member of the IWCS - International Wood >Collectors' Society), Is this for real or did you just make them up? I think I need to join....... ---- Start of Message 58089 (thread 25269) ---- From: STJones911@a... Date: 1999-02-20 13:21:00 Subject: Re: Bio: Howard Slack In a message dated 2/20/99 7:25:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, spokeshave@m... writes: > >Woodworking interests: > >I collect wood (and am a member of the IWCS - International Wood > >Collectors' Society), > > > Is this for real or did you just make them up? > I think I need to join....... > It's for real alright. You wouldn't believe the wood gloats I have to put up with at work - a couple of $10 ebony stumps, a $4 piece of koa about right for Mark McGuire's bat, etc. etc. etc. In fairness, I have to say that Howard took me to an auction at a fellow member's place where I picked up slabs of osage orange, silver maple, red elm burl, live oak, sycamore, and some other odds 'n' ends. Steve Jones Kokomo IN Still seeking Stanley #64 screwdrivers and Buck Bros. mortise chisels ---- Start of Message 58094 (thread 25269) ---- From: "Stephan Patnaude" Date: 1999-02-20 14:26:00 Subject: Re: Bio: Howard Slack Howard casually mentions: >>I collect wood (and am a member of the IWCS - International Wood >>Collectors' Society), Welcome to the porch, Howard. There are a number of wood collectors lurking around here. Some won't admit it in public, some claim only a passing fancy related to sport of OT, and others (like me) who eschew the formal specimen size and dream of completing the Tasmania wing of the collection in bowl blanks. Feel free to post wood gloats, wood inquiries, FS notices on large pieces of uncommon woods from Tasmania, etc. And John innocenly inquires about turning pro: >Is this for real or did you just make them up? >I think I need to join....... You go boy. - Stephan ---- Start of Message 58098 (thread 25269) ---- From: b2d@e... (Duke of URLs) Date: 1999-02-20 22:03:00 Subject: Re: Bio: Howard Slack >>Woodworking interests: >>I collect wood (and am a member of the IWCS - International Wood >>Collectors' Society), John A. Gunterman wrote: >Is this for real or did you just make them up? >I think I need to join....... Get thee to the Web site already!!! http://www.kiva.net/~rjbrown/w5/iwcs.html Keith Bohn ---- Start of Message 58099 (thread 25269) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-20 15:04:00 Subject: Re: Bio: Howard Slack >And John innocenly inquires about turning pro: >>Is this for real or did you just make them up? >>I think I need to join....... >You go boy. Got a URL for them?-) ---- Start of Message 58125 (thread 25269) ---- From: Howard Slack Date: 1999-02-21 00:10:00 Subject: Re: Bio: Howard Slack Duke of URLs wrote: > Get thee to the Web site already!!! > > http://www.kiva.net/~rjbrown/w5/iwcs.html > That was the page I looked up first (from an old IWCS bookmark), but the http://www.woodcollectors.org site seems to be more up to date and have more content. Howard Slack ---- Start of Message 58215 (thread 25269) ---- From: Chris Dunn Date: 1999-02-22 19:26:00 Subject: Re: Bio: Howard Slack Howard Slack wrote: > > Family: Wife Susie and 11 (soon 12) children ....YIKES! Please, at the appropriate time, let us know if "cheaper by the dozen" is, in fact, true ..... Oh, and, Welcome to the list! Chris ---- Start of Message 58273 (thread 25269) ---- From: fuss_em@h... (Paul Fuss) Date: 1999-02-23 15:20:00 Subject: Re: Bio: Howard Slack Howard Slack wrote: >I *don't* collect tools, but I sure seem to have a lot of them. My wife >might start thinking I do collect them, but I'm pretty sure that's just >a simple misunderstanding. This is truly a classic statement and I believe it deserves a place in the FAQ. Or at least in Tom Price's "Galoot's Progress". (Howard, you're in the right place). Paul Fuss Boston, MA ++++ End of thread 25269 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25270 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58072 (thread 25270) ---- From: Howard Slack Date: 1999-02-20 03:44:00 Subject: Split Nuts for Saws Since I am new to the group, maybe this has already been covered - if so, sorry about that. I am intersted in replacing the handles on a few saws, and am not sure where to obtain split brass nuts. Any help? Howard Slack ++++ End of thread 25270 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25271 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58074 (thread 25271) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-02-20 04:41:00 Subject: WTB: Mallet and Saw Set GG's, Well, I need to use this new/old 1/2" gem of a mortise chisel the the MofA sent me, and realized all I have are carpenters hammers and a ball-peen. Does anyone have a new or old Mallet for sale? I'm not terribly picky, as long as it won't blow up when I use it. Second thing, I need a saw set for my $4 #4 ..nry Disston and Sons backsaw, the rust is removed but it needs to be sharpenned and the set openned up a bit. I'd like one I could set maybe 14 or 17tpi with if that is possible. Don't know why anyone would want this, but I have a Morrils patent saw set if it is worth something in trade. I wouldn't call it a user, the action is a bit worn and I don't see how it would set anything smaller than 3 or 4 tpi. TIA Roger Books (Teach me to bid on eBay when I don't know exactly what I am buying.) ++++ End of thread 25271 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25272 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58076 (thread 25272) ---- From: carlwshp Date: 1999-02-20 04:44:00 Subject: new Wood Plane Web Page Hi Everyone, I think some of you know Larry Williams has been making some great wooden planes for awhile, Well he has a web page up with a some of these beautiful Planes, have a look at. http://www.planemaker.com Carl Murphy Eastport, Maine ++++ End of thread 25272 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25273 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58077 (thread 25273) ---- From: Norman Witt Date: 1999-02-20 04:55:00 Subject: Compass saw teeth I just acquired a couple of compass saws, and am wondering what type of teeth they are supposed to have. I expected this type of saw to have crosscut teeth, both both examples have a rip tooth profile. Furthermore, the sharp one has rip teeth that slope to the side: the front face of the tooth is perpendicular to the edge of the saw, and the chisel tip of the tooth is perpendicular to the side of the saw, but the chisel edge itself slopes to the side of the saw. In other words, the teeth look like rip teeth when viewed from the side, but like crosscut teeth from the front. If it makes any difference, both saws are identical, except that one has a Disston medallion and the other does not. Is this type of tooth correct for a compass saw, or is this just another example of incompetent sharpening? What is the correct tooth profile for this type of saw? Naturally, the nicer of the saws is the dull one, and it would help if I knew what to tell the sharpener before I take it in. Norm W. ++++ End of thread 25273 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25274 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58079 (thread 25274) ---- From: Ken Miller Date: 1999-02-20 05:05:00 Subject: Curosity on *bay? I saw this on *bay: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=67694486 What are the "clawed" tools? ---- Start of Message 58199 (thread 25274) ---- From: Chuck Phillips Date: 1999-02-22 14:07:00 Subject: Re: Curosity on *bay? Based on the context of the other tools in the lot (Pounce wheel, triangular awl, and a "square chuck" (pin vice?)), I would venture to guess the "2-pronged claws" are upholsterers tack pullers. Chuck Phillips Having fun in the House of a Thousand Projects. ++++ End of thread 25274 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25275 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58082 (thread 25275) ---- From: Paul Aud Date: 1999-02-20 06:18:00 Subject: the ones I never had a chance at... Ok, I thought of posting it, but decided not to until I heard the favorable comments on stories after our bottom feeder contest. As most of you probably know, I am in college student majoring in Civil Engineering. I am also on the Engineering Student Council. A few weeks ago, I was going to an administrative office to work out some details about our Engineering Open House that's going to be in one week. I saw some other ESC officers in the copier room. I stopped in to talk to them and what do I see but some woodies sticking out of the top of a cardboard box. I looked in and saw several wooden planes that had thick soles and handles like those on a saw. I also saw some kind of funky brace that had a right angle bend in it and a hypotenusical (I know it's not a word, just play along) branch too. The part to turn was on the hypotenusical part. What in Sam Hill is this thing??????? I also saw a Stanley 41 (I think it had a profile cutter in it). This was in two boxes on top of a bunch of others. I took the top boxes off and looked in the ones underneath... ALL wooden molding planes LOTS of 'em. They were all lined up in boxes (the DYI storage cardboard ones) and the boxes were piled to a little over 6 feet! I asked who was responsible for these beauties. It happened to be the guy I was already on my way to talk to. When I asked him why they had them and what they were going to do with them, he told me a graduate student had donated them and that they were to hold them for an indetermined amount of time. And THEN he added that the college hoped to be able to start a technology museum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH dang, I went home that day and didn't know what to think. just thought I'd share, Oddball ---- Start of Message 58109 (thread 25275) ---- From: NLutz10449@a... Date: 1999-02-20 17:36:00 Subject: Re: the ones I never had a chance at... In a message dated 99-02-20 01:23:10 EST, pgaud0@p... writes: << I also saw some kind of funky brace that had a right angle bend in it and a hypotenusical (I know it's not a word, just play along) branch too. The part to turn was on the hypotenusical part. What in Sam Hill is this thing??????? >> What you saw was a corner brace used to drill holes in the corner of a room where a user wouldn't be able to swing a normal brace. Talk about a tool with a narrow range of uses. Was there ever a short swing hammer without a claw for nailing inside a cabinet or other confined space? Erik von Sneidern Syracuse, NY, who wonders if Paul has set up a workbench in his dorm yet. ---- Start of Message 58117 (thread 25275) ---- From: "Brent D. Beach" Date: 1999-02-20 21:50:00 Subject: Re: the ones I never had a chance at... On Sat, 20 Feb, Paul Aud wrote: >And THEN he added that the college hoped to be able to start a >technology museum!!! > >Oddball So, you voluntered to be the first curator? Brent Brent Beach, Victoria, BC, CA ---- Start of Message 58134 (thread 25275) ---- From: snoe749@i... Date: 1999-02-21 02:13:00 Subject: Re: the ones I never had a chance at... > Ok, > I thought of posting it, [snip] I stopped in to talk to them and > what do I see but some woodies sticking out of the top of a cardboard box. >[snip] ALL wooden > molding planes LOTS of 'em. They were all lined up in boxes (the DYI > storage cardboard ones) and the boxes were piled to a little over 6 feet! > I asked who was responsible for these beauties. It happened to be the guy > I was already on my way to talk to. When I asked him why they had them and[snip]THEN he added that the college hoped to be able to start a > technology > museum![snip of emotional outbutst]> dang, I went home that day and didn't know what to think. > just thought I'd share, > Oddball OK, museum of technology - I'll trade for the pinion and ring gears the dealership had to replace in my '93 Aerostar - only 111,000 miles (185,000 km Nuno and Eric). Steve Noe, in Indianapolis, who's close enough to come down and drool. snoe749@i... ++++ End of thread 25275 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25276 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58084 (thread 25276) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-02-20 08:29:00 Subject: Set of 4 Saws from G&W Friends, I have been eyeing a set of 4 "English" style brass backed saws in the Garret & Wade catalog . The set costs $100 and consists of a tenon a dovetail (8" backsaw) a gent's and a small slitting saw. Are these good tools (with a possible refiling)? I would really appreciate any advice on these new old tools Thank you, Adam ---- Start of Message 58096 (thread 25276) ---- From: "Haney, Kevin (CIT)" Date: 1999-02-20 14:46:00 Subject: RE: Set of 4 Saws from G&W If you want cheap saws they may be OK. But if I were looking for a set, I woul d buy some 19th century saws. They have much better steel and much more comfortable handles. I can't stand to hold those new saws in my hand any more. Bob Brode will have a bunch for sale on his web site soon (http://modigliani.brandx.net/user/bbrode/tools_for_sale/) Kevin Haney P.S. Still looking for an 18" Disston #5 to complete my set of every size made ;-) -----Original Message----- From: Adam Whiteson [SMTP:adamwhiteson@m...] Sent: Saturday, February 20, 1999 3:29 AM To: OLDTOOLS@l... Subject: Set of 4 Saws from G&W Friends, I have been eyeing a set of 4 "English" style brass backed saws in the Garret & Wade catalog . The set costs $100 and consists of a tenon a dovetail (8" backsaw) a gent's and a small slitting saw. Are these good tools (with a possible refiling)? I would really appreciate any advice on these new old tools Thank you, Adam -- ---- Start of Message 58101 (thread 25276) ---- From: georgew@m... Date: 1999-02-20 15:29:00 Subject: Re: Set of 4 Saws from G&W Adam. Bought one of GW's Sanderson and Sons Brass Backed dovetail saws back in my pre-Galoot days (SWMBO questions whether I have any pre-Galoot days. Something about being born a big Galoot). Used it for several years until I got my IT (number 21 gloat). From there it was a pair of brass backed split nut 12" Groves (Bob Brode is responsible for these), a split nut little steel backed 8" Bakewell (Fine Tool Journal) and a Spear & Jackson 12" steel backed split nut (ebay, you Galoots were sleeping on this one;-) ). The Sanderson sits there unused. The others all get used for different things. Bottom line from this, buy an old one. They work better, feel better and look better. The IT (and probably Adria, don't have one so don't know) are exceptions to this. Make sure that it is sharpened and set. It will work fine, but be prepared to buy more. It is a slippery slope. George adamwhiteson@m... on 02/20/99 01:29:05 AM Please respond to adamwhiteson@m... To: OLDTOOLS@l... cc: (bcc: George Wallace/OTI) Subject: Set of 4 Saws from G&W Friends, I have been eyeing a set of 4 "English" style brass backed saws in the Garret & Wade catalog . The set costs $100 and consists of a tenon a dovetail (8" backsaw) a gent's and a small slitting saw. Are these good tools (with a possible refiling)? I would really appreciate any advice on these new old tools Thank you, Adam ---- Start of Message 58105 (thread 25276) ---- From: "Ron Harper" Date: 1999-02-20 16:30:00 Subject: Re: Set of 4 Saws from G&W George left our the Hoosier Tools Saw Worked great at Hoosier Galoots III filed test Don't have a URL handy But I think Electronic Neanderthal has them linked at new old tools Usual disclaimer, just proud of Hoosiers Ron -----Original Message----- From: georgew@m... To: adamwhiteson@m... Cc: OLDTOOLS@l... Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 10:30 AM Subject: Re: Set of 4 Saws from G&W >Adam. > Bought one of GW's Sanderson and Sons Brass Backed dovetail saws back in my pre-Galoot days (SWMBO questions >whether I have any pre-Galoot days. Something about being born a big Galoot). Used it for several years until I got my >IT (number 21 gloat). From there it was a pair of brass backed split nut 12" Groves (Bob Brode is responsible for >these), a split nut little steel backed 8" Bakewell (Fine Tool Journal) and a Spear & Jackson 12" steel backed split nut >(ebay, you Galoots were sleeping on this one;-) ). The Sanderson sits there unused. The others all get used for >different things. > Bottom line from this, buy an old one. They work better, feel better and look better. The IT (and probably >Adria, don't have one so don't know) are exceptions to this. Make sure that it is sharpened and set. It will work >fine, but be prepared to buy more. It is a slippery slope. > George > > > > >adamwhiteson@m... on 02/20/99 01:29:05 AM > >Please respond to adamwhiteson@m... > >To: OLDTOOLS@l... >cc: (bcc: George Wallace/OTI) >Subject: Set of 4 Saws from G&W > > > > >Friends, > >I have been eyeing a set of 4 "English" style brass backed saws in the >Garret & Wade catalog . The set costs $100 and consists of a tenon a >dovetail (8" backsaw) a gent's and a small slitting saw. > >Are these good tools (with a possible refiling)? I would really appreciate >any advice on these new old tools > >Thank you, Adam > >-- > > > > > > > >-- > > ---- Start of Message 58107 (thread 25276) ---- From: georgew@m... Date: 1999-02-20 16:46:00 Subject: Re: Set of 4 Saws from G&W Ron, You are right. Purely unintentional as, like the Adria, I have no experience with it. George harpie@n... on 02/20/99 09:30:56 AM Please respond to harpie@n... To: George Wallace/OTI@O..., adamwhiteson@m... cc: OLDTOOLS@l... Subject: Re: Set of 4 Saws from G&W George left our the Hoosier Tools Saw Worked great at Hoosier Galoots III filed test Don't have a URL handy But I think Electronic Neanderthal has them linked at new old tools Usual disclaimer, just proud of Hoosiers Ron -----Original Message----- From: georgew@m... To: adamwhiteson@m... Cc: OLDTOOLS@l... Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 10:30 AM Subject: Re: Set of 4 Saws from G&W >Adam. > Bought one of GW's Sanderson and Sons Brass Backed dovetail saws back in my pre-Galoot days (SWMBO questions >whether I have any pre-Galoot days. Something about being born a big Galoot). Used it for several years until I got my >IT (number 21 gloat). From there it was a pair of brass backed split nut 12" Groves (Bob Brode is responsible for >these), a split nut little steel backed 8" Bakewell (Fine Tool Journal) and a Spear & Jackson 12" steel backed split nut >(ebay, you Galoots were sleeping on this one;-) ). The Sanderson sits there unused. The others all get used for >different things. > Bottom line from this, buy an old one. They work better, feel better and look better. The IT (and probably >Adria, don't have one so don't know) are exceptions to this. Make sure that it is sharpened and set. It will work >fine, but be prepared to buy more. It is a slippery slope. > George > > > > >adamwhiteson@m... on 02/20/99 01:29:05 AM > >Please respond to adamwhiteson@m... > >To: OLDTOOLS@l... >cc: (bcc: George Wallace/OTI) >Subject: Set of 4 Saws from G&W > > > > >Friends, > >I have been eyeing a set of 4 "English" style brass backed saws in the >Garret & Wade catalog . The set costs $100 and consists of a tenon a >dovetail (8" backsaw) a gent's and a small slitting saw. > >Are these good tools (with a possible refiling)? I would really appreciate >any advice on these new old tools > >Thank you, Adam > >-- > > > > > > > >-- > > ++++ End of thread 25276 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25277 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58090 (thread 25277) ---- From: STJones911@a... Date: 1999-02-20 13:50:00 Subject: BIO - Steve Jones Reposting. Howard Slack told me that my bio wasn't listed. I went to verify this but now I can't find the porch!!?! C'mon did you guys move when I was out of town? Was it my defense of Norm? If someone will just tell me what the #@??!@@# URL is, I'll crawl back under the porch. Like many others on this list, I'm a professional computer geek by day (and sometimes night). I've been at it one way or another for 25 years, starting with a one-week programming class. (I fear that some of my programs are making a modest contribution to the Y2K problem.) In the middle of that stretch, I taught computer science at a Missouri community college and at a regional campus of Indiana University. Now I work for EDS doing groupware and collaborative work kinds of things. Before all that I was a musician, cab driver, commercial artist, moved furniture, wrote advertising copy, and did odd jobs and carpentry. I have a SWMBO of 24 years and two SWMBettes. (God only sends sons to men who need help.) The girls are 11 (sweet) and 17 (AAaaauuugh!). Also like some others, I set out to be a Normite. My father gave me his old power tools (like a 1936 Craftsman 10" saw) and I started making a little sawdust. When I couldn't get his 4" joiner tuned to produce a straight edge, I realized I was looking at a grand or so for a quality 6" or 8" replacement. I decided that I'd better learn to use a plane instead. I bought a Stanley #33 on eBay, did some reading, started hitting auctions and flea markets, bought more sizes of planes, and bought a #40 from Steve Butti. I joined EAIA and M-WTCA, bought more books, sold a few planes, and found the slope far too slippery to resist. At this point, I'd rather just fool around with old tools (mostly planes) than actually make anything, much to SWMBO's despair. I confess that when I do make something, I occasionally turn to a tailed apprentice. OTOH, I've turned from making jigs and fixtures for the beasts and spend time (more SWMBO despair) making hand tools - finished a stair saw and shave, current projects include a Hoosier Tools infill shoulder plane (check out Scott Post's completed one), a HT dovetail saw, another shave (ebony this time; how I love ebony). I have some plane irons waiting to become Krenov planes. I have a couple of woodies/transitionals that need their mouths closed up and at least one re-sole job. And, oh, yeah, cupboard doors for the built-in storage in the bedroom, a walnut bench for SWMBO, another leaf for the old oak dining room table, and possibly a cherry vanity for the bathroom. Then there's the unfinished bench.... Whew! I'm pooped; I'm going to lie down. And I still watch Norm but now I watch Roy too. Steve Jones Kokomo IN ++++ End of thread 25277 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25278 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58091 (thread 25278) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-02-20 14:03:00 Subject: RE: Howard Slack - (I am the banjo player - everyone else would like to play but they're just too - embarassed to admit it) Welcome to the list from one banjo player to another. About time some people with some real music taste join in the discussion. If we really want to discuss the masters of using "old tools" we need to get a thread going on how Earl Scruggs can make his classic Gibson Mastertone talk! Keith Rucker Tifton, GA ---- Start of Message 58097 (thread 25278) ---- From: "Ron Harper" Date: 1999-02-20 14:48:00 Subject: Re: Howard Slack Howard an official welcome Good to have you at Hoosier Galoots !!!. Hope to see you at Tod Herrli's shindig Come back and see me Ron -----Original sparingly. > > ++++ End of thread 25278 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25279 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58092 (thread 25279) ---- From: "Scott E. Post" Date: 1999-02-20 14:22:00 Subject: Dimensions for beech blanks A coworker of mine has been taking down a lot of trees lately and having them sawn (currently processing over 25 walnuts). I mentioned that I'd like to try my hand at planemaking but it's difficult to find thick quartersawn beech. He's already taken down a few beech trees to get to walnut and ash, but he just cut them up for firewood. He said he'd keep me in mind if he came across one (in fact, he took one down for me on Thursday but the heart was rotten). If he manages to find one, what exactly should I ask for? I remember reading somewhere (Whelan?) that the best blanks come from close to the heart. Is this true? Also, what thickness should I have it sawn to? Seems like it'd be 12/4 or 13/4 for bench planes. Would I want some thicker stuff for simple molders? If so, how thick? I don't have any experience having lumber sawn so I'd like to have a list of fairly explicit instructions for the bandsaw mill operator. ---- Start of Message 58104 (thread 25279) ---- From: williams@i... (Larry Williams) Date: 1999-02-20 15:58:00 Subject: Re: Dimensions for beech blanks Scott asks: >........ what exactly should I ask for? I remember reading >somewhere (Whelan?) that the best blanks come from close to the heart. Is >this true? Also, what thickness should I have it sawn to? Seems like it'd be >12/4 or 13/4 for bench planes. Would I want some thicker stuff for simple >molders? If so, how thick? I don't have any experience having lumber >sawn so I'd like to have a list of fairly explicit instructions for the >bandsaw mill operator. >From our experience, go for something 4 X 4 or a little bigger. There are so many sizes of molders that you won't be able to saw to size and not generate waste. Long 4 X 4 + will let you resaw to the sizes you need and accomodate bench planes too. Heart wood is great for hardness but sap wood is fine and is more stable. Larry Williams Williams & Clark http://www.planemaker.com ---- Start of Message 58142 (thread 25279) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 1999-02-21 06:16:00 Subject: Re: Dimensions for beech blanks On Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:22:00 -0500 (EST), Scott E. Post wrote: >I mentioned that I'd like to >try my hand at planemaking but it's difficult to find thick quartersawn beech. >He's already taken down a few beech trees to get to walnut and ash, but he >just cut them up for firewood. He said he'd keep me in mind if he came >across one (in fact, he took one down for me on Thursday but the heart was >rotten). If you're in the D.C. area, I have some firewood-length pieces of a hefty beech branch to offer for free. I gave some to other galoots. It's not painted on the ends, so you takes yiz chances with checking, though. >If he manages to find one, what exactly should I ask for? I remember reading >somewhere (Whelan?) that the best blanks come from close to the heart. Is >this true? >From what I've read, the best plane blanks come from close to the bark. Think of it: you want the rings as flat as possible. The traditional explanation is that the wood is harder nearer the surface (after drying), but I don't know if this is so. >Also, what thickness should I have it sawn to? Seems like it'd be >12/4 or 13/4 for bench planes. Would I want some thicker stuff for simple >molders? If so, how thick? I don't have any experience having lumber >sawn so I'd like to have a list of fairly explicit instructions for the >bandsaw mill operator. Sounds about right. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA New Email address: avogadro@b... (also avogadro@w...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 58173 (thread 25279) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-02-22 01:36:00 Subject: Re: Dimensions for beech blanks On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 01:16:15 -0500 (EST) "Michael D. Sullivan" writes: > >If you're in the D.C. area, I have some firewood-length pieces of a >hefty beech >branch to offer for free. I gave some to other galoots. It's not >painted on the >ends, so you takes yiz chances with checking, though. > Ah yes, you gave a couple of those to me. I left them in whole log form, used yellow glue on the ends and they aren't checking too badly yet. Should have used parrafin. I didn't quarter the logs because my experience with drying logs after they have been quartered has been that they warp along the diagonal. SO I'm letting these dry for a year or so first. ++++ End of thread 25279 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25280 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58093 (thread 25280) ---- From: "Justin A. Haber" Date: 1999-02-20 14:28:00 Subject: Compass Planes Galoots, I'm tooling up for the Dunbar chair class, and am almost done. I still need to acquire a compass plane and a travisher. I've picked up a travisher blade and think I'll build a knock-off based on one of the ones used in Mike's shop. A compass plane, however, may be beyond me, at least for now. I seem to remember that Esther made one, but not the details, perhaps she, or another DIYer could relate their experience. Mike recommends the Crown Plane Co. model, but I was wondering if any of you have experience with the one sold by the Japan Woodworker, or knew of any others worthy of investigation, either finished or in kit form. TIA Justin ++++ End of thread 25280 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25281 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58100 (thread 25281) ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 1999-02-20 15:09:00 Subject: Can We POP the Test Balloon? Esteemed Galoots, This thread has gone on longer than the Eveready Bunny. Forgot to download yesterday and saw 113 messages come in. A bunch of them are still on this topic. If we're all going to vote how about if we send our responses by PRIVATE reply to Gunterman and let him collate them. Please. Yes, I'm setting up a kill-file for anything with 'balloon/baloon' in the subject line. Not all of us have that capability. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) ++++ End of thread 25281 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25282 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58102 (thread 25282) ---- From: tom thornton Date: 1999-02-20 19:52:00 Subject: Disposition of collection I know thet subject has come up before with no conclusion. I'm aware the my local north jersey club CRAFTS is happy to add estates to its annual auction, which recirculates things. But I wonder if we as a group should be discussing one or more permanent homes for some of the things were collecting. In pondering the solution I think about the actual museums I have visited, what they had and if they had space. So I thought it might be helpful to the discussion, to make a listing of the museums we already know about and what if any they might do with or about old tools. For example in my area; Shelburne Museum, Vermont, extensive old tool collection in unheated barn. All totally rusted ( 1996 visit) Jim Thorpe Museum, Jim Thorpe PA. good location, few old tools have email address and nice people, supported by town canal & rail displays North Jersey Antique Engine & machine Club, unheated bldg at Sussex County Fairgrounds, Sussex NJ Science Museum, Boston, heavy machinery including operating steam engine. Dearborn Museum, Dearborn Mich, one of everything Madison Museum of Early trades, hlimits to items from Madison, limited space. Have member on this list. (M.Dick) GlennCurtiss Museum, Hammondsport NY, nice , new, with space. Aircraft and local artifacts. Sturbridge Village, Mass. Don't recall any specific tool displays Do you suppose it would do any good to ask those folks if they have any room for contributions. Or should we just gather a list and you all could make local contact if you would like to donate. Or is it a dumb idea.. ---- Start of Message 58106 (thread 25282) ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 1999-02-20 19:39:00 Subject: Re: Disposition of collection At 11:52 AM 2/20/99 -0800, Tom Thornton wrote: >I know the subject has come up before with no conclusion. I'm >aware the my local north jersey club CRAFTS is happy to add estates to >its annual auction, which recirculates things. But I wonder if we >as a group should be discussing one or more permanent homes for some >of the things were collecting. > >In pondering the solution I think about the actual museums I have >visited, what they had and if they had space. So I thought it >might be helpful to the discussion, to make a listing of the >museums we already know about and what if any they might do >with or about old tools. > >For example in my area; > >Dearborn Museum, Dearborn Mich, one of everything You must be thinking of Greenfield Village. Funded originally by Henry Ford and now by memberships and donations, it has a fabulous collection of tools and machinery. I considered donating _My_ fabulous collection, but after I read the descriptions of those photographed by Garrett Hack in the "Handplane Book" and by Sandor Nagyszalanczy in the "Art of Fine Tools", I realized that there were _slightly_ better collections to be had. Methinks it is time to become a museum. All donations gratefully accepted. Junk (anything not NIB) will be passed on to a really deserving local character. - Jim ---- Start of Message 58110 (thread 25282) ---- From: Walter Barry Date: 1999-02-20 20:59:00 Subject: RE: Disposition of collection From: tom thornton [SMTP:tomthornton@n...] > I know thet subject has come up before with no conclusion. I'm > aware the my local north jersey club CRAFTS is happy to add estates to > its annual auction, which recirculates things. But I wonder if we > as a group should be discussing one or more permanent homes for some > of the things were collecting. > ....pondering the solution I think about the actual museums I have > visited, what they had and if they had space. No No NO!!! This was an very important thread from last year. Most museums are ALREADY loaded with so much from past donations. Too much stuff is rotting in their basements. Many very knowledgeable people on the list had written horror stories that they knew first hand, about parts getting lost or switched, rare wood getting damaged from being thrown around in boxes with other stuff, wet basements, etc.etc. And because the staff often doesn't know one tool from the next, and the ACTUAL space available for displays is often very limited, the best stuff will be hidden from Joe Public forever. And then only the staff will get to handle the stuff. Not people like you and I, who really love old tools. To most museum visitors, they don't care if they're looking at a common Stanley #4 or a rare #164, both planes get the same response. I'd rather see the collectors keep them, because then the tools will get appreciated. Even users know enough not to use the very rare stuff, and will treat their common tools with loving care. I've already shown my load of old tools to a few "outsiders". Most could care less, and within 15-30 minutes they're usually bored. That's your typical museum audience. How about teaching the kids a bit of history? Well museums do get a lot of school classes passing through. But the kids really don't care if they're looking at a Sandusky as opposed to rare 18th century plane, right? So what's the difference? . And a museum will never let them touch it or use it. At least people like us will let kids actually play with some tools, and we'll explain how they were developed and used much better then any museum. I was really in awe at an incredible collection of tools shown a few years ago in Williamsburg, Va. ,most all on loan from renowned collectors. A good book came out from the event "Tools: Working Wood in 18th Century America" Probably the only real good book on old tools that I've seen come from a museum exhibit. Isn't that the best proof. With all the vast research material on old tools written within the last 30 years. Almost none of it was produced by museums. Although I was glad these individuals loaned their collections to that exhibit in Williamsburg, I felt even better that they took them home after it was over. Because once the museum reallocated that display space for the next exhibit, all those wonderful old tools would've ended up in the museum's basement indefinitely. Keep the tools where they belong. With the collectors and users. Walter ---- Start of Message 58111 (thread 25282) ---- From: "Ron Harper" Date: 1999-02-20 18:18:00 Subject: Re: Disposition of collection We are talking again about goin to the great shop in the sky and leavin our tools behind. My spouse has instruction to give my best friend whatever tools from my assortment that he may want. And after that to give the assortment in toto to a young galoot. She is forbidden, under pain of hauntings, from having a disposal auction. Hopefully, she will not be in a circumstance where she need to get money from the tools. And if I make it another 35 years or so, who knows what the price of these things will be. I'd like to help a young galoot if I could. My .02 Ron -----Original Message----- From: Walter Barry To: 'tomthornton@n...' ; 'a Tools' Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 1:03 PM Subject: RE: Disposition of collection >From: tom thornton [SMTP:tomthornton@n...] >> I know thet subject has come up before with no conclusion. I'm >> aware the my local north jersey club CRAFTS is happy to add estates to >> its annual auction, which recirculates things. But I wonder if we >> as a group should be discussing one or more permanent homes for some >> of the things were collecting. >> ....pondering the solution I think about the actual museums I have >> visited, what they had and if they had space. > >No No NO!!! This was an very important thread from last year. >Most museums are ALREADY loaded with so much from past donations. >Too much stuff is rotting in their basements. Many very knowledgeable >people on the list had written horror stories that they knew first hand, >about parts getting lost or switched, rare wood getting damaged from >being thrown around in boxes with other stuff, wet basements, etc.etc. > >And because the staff often doesn't know one tool from the next, and the >ACTUAL space available for displays is often very limited, the best stuff >will be hidden from Joe Public forever. And then only the staff will get >to handle the stuff. Not people like you and I, who really love old tools. > >To most museum visitors, they don't care if they're looking at a common >Stanley #4 or a rare #164, both planes get the same response. I'd rather >see the collectors keep them, because then the tools will get appreciated. >Even users know enough not to use the very rare stuff, and will treat their >common tools with loving care. I've already shown my load of old tools >to a few "outsiders". Most could care less, and within 15-30 minutes >they're usually bored. That's your typical museum audience. > >How about teaching the kids a bit of history? Well museums do get a lot >of school classes passing through. But the kids really don't care if they're >looking at a Sandusky as opposed to rare 18th century plane, right? >So what's the difference? . And a museum will never let them touch >it or use it. At least people like us will let kids actually play with some >tools, and we'll explain how they were developed and used much better >then any museum. > >I was really in awe at an incredible collection of tools shown a few years >ago in Williamsburg, Va. ,most all on loan from renowned collectors. >A good book came out from the event "Tools: Working Wood in 18th >Century America" Probably the only real good book on old tools that >I've seen come from a museum exhibit. Isn't that the best proof. >With all the vast research material on old tools written within the last >30 years. Almost none of it was produced by museums. > >Although I was glad these individuals loaned their collections to that >exhibit in Williamsburg, I felt even better that they took them home >after it was over. Because once the museum reallocated that display >space for the next exhibit, all those wonderful old tools would've ended >up in the museum's basement indefinitely. > >Keep the tools where they belong. With the collectors and users. > >Walter > > >-- > > ---- Start of Message 58113 (thread 25282) ---- From: TURFF49@a... Date: 1999-02-20 18:59:00 Subject: Re: Disposition of collection I agree. I'm 35 years old and if not for my grandfather and father I wouldn't be able to afford some of the tools I have now. I make good money but $1000 for a #1 is a little ridiculous. And how about the $250 for a #45. I plan on handing mine down if not to my child then one that appreciates the workmanship of these oldies. "They don't make them like they use to ". And if more and more of them end up in museums then what will the kids of tomorrow have? Nothing but pictures to look at. What a horrible thought that would be.Brian ---- Start of Message 58114 (thread 25282) ---- From: elschaffer@j... Date: 1999-02-20 20:37:00 Subject: Re: Disposition of collection Walter: I certainly concur with your view!!!!!!! Only give your "collectibles" to Museums if you never want to see them again, or have others see them in public. Even the Smithsonian has a hard time displaying the tons of tools they have!!!!!!! Other Museums are likely worse. Some accept your stuff, and then resell the items they don't want to antique dealers , etc. Soooooo, consider any action very carefully before donating tools to a "museum"! --ErvSawwwwwwwwwwwz ---- Start of Message 58267 (thread 25282) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-02-23 14:51:00 Subject: Re: Disposition of collection Walter Barry wrote: > > From: tom thornton [SMTP:tomthornton@n...] > > I know thet subject has come up before with no conclusion. I'm > > aware the my local north jersey club CRAFTS is happy to add estates to > > its annual auction, which recirculates things. But I wonder if we > > as a group should be discussing one or more permanent homes for some > > of the things were collecting. > > ....pondering the solution I think about the actual museums I have > > visited, what they had and if they had space. > > No No NO!!! This was an very important thread from last year. > Most museums are ALREADY loaded with so much from past donations. > Too much stuff is rotting in their basements. This seems to be all too true. While I was in Ottawa I tried yet again to find the Sorrill tool chest at the Canadian Museum of civilization (http://www.civilization.ca/membrs/treasure/140eng.html). This time I found somebody who actually seemed to know something. I was told that only 5% of the artifacts are on display at any given time. This is quite a large museum so they have a huge amount of stuf that mey never be seen by the puplic ---- Start of Message 58743 (thread 25282) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-03-01 21:26:00 Subject: Re: Disposition of collection At 11:52 AM 2/20/99 -0800, tom thornton wrote: >In pondering the solution I think about the actual museums I have >visited, what they had and if they had space. So I thought it >might be helpful to the discussion, to make a listing of the >museums we already know about and what if any they might do >with or about old tools. At the risk of offending the collectors in this group: It is my feeling that tools, like men, were made to work. Putting a tool in a museum showcase is like putting a tiger in a cage just so that he can be displayed. Now I understand that it's necessary to have a few tigers in cages for science, or for preservation of the species or to show people - but it's always a damn shame. Then there is the point made in this thread that museums are not always the kindly foster parents one would wish for. If you dispose of your tools through a knowledgeable, competent dealer he will know their value and who is willing to pay for it. Through his services they are likely to end up in the hands of people who appreciate fine tools and some of them might even use them. ---- Start of Message 58746 (thread 25282) ---- From: Kenneth Stagg Date: 1999-03-01 21:18:00 Subject: Re: Disposition of collection Adam Whiteson wrote: > > At the risk of offending the collectors in this group: It is my feeling > that tools, like men, were made to work. Putting a tool in a museum > showcase is like putting a tiger in a cage just so that he can be > displayed. Now I understand that it's necessary to have a few tigers in > cages for science, or for preservation of the species or to show people - > but it's always a damn shame. Such is one person's opinion. My opinion, OTOH, is that the originally intended purpose of a man-made artifact need have little bearing upon the use to which we subsequently put it, even when we know *exactly* what the original purpose was. Something to note here might be the question of what the original purpose was? Do we *know* that the only purpose of some tool was to perform a specific woodworking task? Not always. In fact I'd argue that some of the tools were supposed to be 'collectible' from the get-go. Why else use rare/exotic materials where lesser materials would, from the standpoint of a pure user, suffice? -Ken ---- Start of Message 58749 (thread 25282) ---- From: "Gary P. Johns" Date: 1999-03-01 21:57:00 Subject: Re: Disposition of collection Disposers.... [snip of opinnons all highly prized) I have already disposed of my collection. I started early. As my daughter is only 3 years old and already knows the difference between a #101 (small plane) and a block plane (big plane), I decided to give everything to her. Now she -may- decided to sell it. OR she may decide to use it, but I figure I've got 20 years until I have to make a hard decision. In the meantime I'm going to do my d*mndest to see that she knows how to use each and every one of my old tools. That way I figure I'm making her decision easier down the road! ps I'm also gonna give her the powah tools too! Gary Johns OldTool Heaven "RustHunter" http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9147 ---- Start of Message 58765 (thread 25282) ---- From: Wes Groot Date: 1999-03-02 02:55:00 Subject: Re: Disposition of collection GGs I've got a neighbor with a '97 Bentley. It is made of some pretty expensive and exotic material and costs many times more than almost every other car in it's size class. I'm going over to his house now, and I'm going to tell him it's not a user, and that he should put it in the garage because it was made to be collectable. ;-) Call me Mr. Literal. Kenneth Stagg wrote: > Such is one person's opinion. My opinion, OTOH, is that the originally > intended purpose of a man-made artifact need have little bearing upon > the use to which we subsequently put it, even when we know *exactly* > what the original purpose was. But we're talking about 1800 to 1960ish tools here right? We could apply Ken's opinion to anything that's man made. One could use a watch as a jeweler's anvil, but the whole idea of having tools is that a jeweler's anvil will do the job better than a watch. And a #41 is made to plow grooves in wood. The reason that a #41 is collectible is due to supply and demand. But it may still be used! Something to note here might be the > question of what the original purpose was? Do we *know* that the only > purpose of some tool was to perform a specific woodworking task? Not > always. Maybe not one specific task, but in the time period with which most of us are concerned, when it was found that a certain tool did a job well enough, then that tool was mass produced and mass marketed to the people who *used* them. In fact I'd argue that some of the tools were supposed to be > 'collectible' from the get-go. Why else use rare/exotic materials >where lesser materials would, from the standpoint of a pure user, >suffice? No one is going to argue that a rosewood plow plane with ivory accents was not made for a discerning individual, whether it was a presentation piece, or as in many cases an item created to show off the talents of the maker. But a tool is made to be used, and in the case of the rosewood plow, it was used as a showpiece as a "resume". I would go so far as to say it was "made" to be a showpiece, and only after it's use in that capacity has ended, does it become "collectible". Non-tool related: After Tiffany Studios went bankrupt and Louis C. Tiffany died, the warehouses in New York were emptied out by dumping hundreds of bronzes of every description and lamp bases etc. into the river. They weren't collectible then. The entire contents of Tiffany's Long Island house, Laurelton Hall, was disposed of at auction in 1946 for a total of $84,468.31 (you could buy one Nice tiffany table lamp for that now. I know; the dollar's value has changed a little since then!) Then the house and four acres went for less than $10,000. Sorry, I really digress! Anyway that's just another oppinion. Wes ++++ End of thread 25282 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25283 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58103 (thread 25283) ---- From: Joe and Rhonda DiPietro Date: 1999-02-20 15:41:00 Subject: Joe DiPietro BIO Dear Fellows in Wood... I was recommended to this list but did not offer an official bio...I was looking for a Millers Fall #22 Jointer plane (found one, too!) from fellow galoot Chris Dunn...and its a beautiful piece of iron I am a collegiate professor operating four programs in cardiopulmonary sciences, sleep studies, echocardiography and electrocardiography. I have 85 students engaging in these programs in one form or another. My SWMBO is a patient care coordinator in a local hospital and I can easily describe her as Clara Barton of the 20th Century...for those of you who do not know of Clara Barton, she was a teacher, who served as a nurse in the American Civil War, and the Crimean War in Europe. Her first battle engagement was at Antietam, 17 September 1862...she served both sides for the Blue and the Gray...she later started the International Red Cross... My SWMBETTE is 15 and she writes plays poetry (as does her neo-galoot dad) and plays fullback in soccer...and can easily kick a 65 yarder without a strain...an honors recognized learner, too... My dad was a master craftsman cabinetmaker, helped in the building of Blue Ridge Parkway by the CC Corps, served in the US Army as a ferrier (last duty station was Fort Meyer,, 3rd Infantry "Old Guard) and walked the Tomb of the Unknowns. After his army stint, he accepted apprenticeship in civilian Navy service originally as a shipfitter...he finished this apprenticeship in 9 months (a 3 year journey) and worked with his tools during WWII on wooden hulled boats (minesweepers)...he died in 1973, and I have his woodworking tools... The English translation of our family name is "Peterson"; and it means the Son of Peter, and the bloodline goes back to Peter of the New Testament... I haven't built a thing out of the wood, yet...but I remember a host of things from my dad...his work as well as a letter from him two weeks before his death ended up being driving forces for my dissertation research on Master Craftsmanship in the Health Technologies Professions...I often recall the ease at which a master craftsman works...my mom called this grace... The first thing I remember doing with my dad at the pleasant age of 5.5, was 'assisting' him rip 3/4 white pine...and the first time on that day I touched his Disston saw...and I did pretty good...even though I would waver some...but with the touch of Dad's hand on mine...the straight line was no problem... Thank you for allowing me to be a part of your threads... Joe D. ++++ End of thread 25283 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25284 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58112 (thread 25284) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1999-02-20 18:56:00 Subject: Gouges (was: Just learning Questions) This past Tuesday Rick Young asked: >3.) Do I need gouges??.... While I can't/won't speak to whether *you* need gouges, I do think bench gouges tend to be an often overlooked tool in a traditional woodworker's kit. Fairly recently someone expressed the sentiment that they didn't think they'd need any gouges since they didn't anticipate doing "fancy work" (or words to that effect). This brought a smile to my face. Partly because it expresses a common (mis)perception of the role of bench gouges. Mostly because I'd just caught myself (unconsciously) operating on this attitude just a day or so before. [And I use carving and bench gouges daily.] I forget the specific situation, but I was in a dilemma as to how to remove a fair amount of material where there wasn't access to use a saw, drawknife or spokeshave. And a chisel was potentially going to split the grain out. Suddenly, I realized that a gouge, along with a mallet, was just the right tool for roughing the bulk of the waste out in a controlled manner. Done in a trice. It was then finished up with light paring cuts with a chisel. Why didn't I think of a gouge immediately? Because the finished surface was flat-ish, and I/we tend to associate gouges with curved or shaped work. A variation of the above-mentioned perception, I believe. In fact, I think bench gouges can be quite useful as "roughing tools" in a variety of situations which we often tend to overlook. While most people probably don't use them often, I think they would benefit from having two or three good bench gouges of varying sizes at the ready. Obviously, they can be indispensable for shaped/curved work as well. Incidentally, some of the older literature indicates that bench gouges, unlike carving gouges, don't get a small/secondary inside bezel. I tried following this practice but didn't like it. So all of my gouges now have a secondary inside bezel. I can think of several reasons why this is a good idea - and no compelling reason not to do so. What do others think? Scribing (paring, in-cannel) gouges are, obviously, much more specialized in their usefulness. Though, if one anticipates doing any sash work or other coped woodwork (and Jeff Gorman suggests they have utility in cleaning up concave sections of mouldings) one or two of these might also be useful. Which brings me to a question brought up by browsing through Ken Roberts' reprint of the 1890 Buck Bros. price list. At the end of the section on "C.S. Paring Gouges" is the following sentence: "Any special Sweep to fit circles will be charged 35 per cent extra to thse prices ... ." I'm assuming that gouges ordered to "fit circles" were held to a lot closer tolerances than run of the mill gouges so that they could be expected to scribe or pare a given arc (mostly for pattern work?). I'm wondering if these were so marked? Has anyone seen such markings? I'd think these would have extra (collectible) value if they were so marked. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 58187 (thread 25284) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-02-22 07:47:00 Subject: RE: Gouges (was: Just learning Questions) ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Don ~ McConnell ~ Sent: Saturday, February 20, 1999 6:56 PM ~ To: OLDTOOLS@l... ~ Cc: ryoung@t... ~ Subject: Gouges (was: Just learning Questions) ~ ~ ~ Incidentally, some of the older literature indicates that ~ bench gouges, ~ unlike carving gouges, don't get a small/secondary inside ~ bezel. I tried ~ following this practice but didn't like it. So all of my ~ gouges now have a ~ secondary inside bezel. I can think of several reasons why ~ this is a good ~ idea - and no compelling reason not to do so. What do others think? My view is that when carving, within reason the lower the hand in relation to the surface, the more direct, hence controllable, the cut. This implies small grinding and honing angles. This makes a greater demand on steel quality, hence forming a small inside bevel enables the actual sharpening angle to be increased yet retaining the low angle of attack. It also makes them somewhat easier to sharpen. Ordinary bench gouges are likely to be used by non-carvers in a more robust manner (ie thumped) where a greater angle of attack is suitable, so normal grinding/honing angles are acceptable, though I can't see an internal bevel doing much harm. Well that's my theory anyway! Jeff ++++ End of thread 25284 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25285 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58115 (thread 25285) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-20 20:56:00 Subject: Groovin' Well after showing a visiting Galoot my latest triumph ( a small mahogany, 2 raised panel, door.) I feel compelled to talk about it and ask about a part of the process... The panels were bookmatched by re-sawing on the Neanderbuddie jointing w/ a #8 and glue and clamps then trimmed to width and length on the "3 Pony Saw"... I then just took a L-N #2 and held it at an angle to produce raised panels as outlined: http://people.ne.mediaone.net/spokeshave/RAISED_PANELS.HTM and made a simple beveled fielding raised panel.. I didn't use a batten or even a layout line of any kind.... just grabbed the plane and had it... it came out very well, I would say. The groves to recive the panles in the rails were made on the "3 Pony Saw".. They needed to be only 3/8" wide to accept the 1/4" edge of the panel... I could not seem to get the #45 set up to mae that narrow of a plough cut. so as I look at the completed door, I'm very pleased but I really want to do the next one _entirely_ w/ handtools (excpet, for the Neanderbuddie ;-) So how would I go about ploughin out such a narrow groove right down the middle of a narrow frame member? (I bechya there is a woodie made just for this job, eh?) ---- Start of Message 58118 (thread 25285) ---- From: "Ron Harper" Date: 1999-02-20 22:33:00 Subject: Re: Groovin' A 1/4 match plane my 45 does this OK I would think any good plow could do this. Course the real tool is a Herrli door plane set . Mine is comin NEEEEEEEEEEENER Ron -----Original Message----- From: John A. Gunterman To: oldtools@l... Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 3:58 PM Subject: Groovin' >Well after showing a visiting Galoot my latest triumph ( a small mahogany, >2 raised panel, door.) I feel compelled to talk about it and ask about a >part of the process... > >The panels were bookmatched by re-sawing on the Neanderbuddie jointing w/ >a #8 and glue and clamps then trimmed to width and length on the "3 Pony >Saw"... > >I then just took a L-N #2 and held it at an angle to produce raised panels >as outlined: >http://people.ne.mediaone.net/spokeshave/RAISED_PANELS.HTM and made a >simple beveled fielding raised panel.. I didn't use a batten or even a >layout line of any kind.... just grabbed the plane and had it... it came >out very well, I would say. > >The groves to recive the panles in the rails were made on the "3 Pony Saw".. >They needed to be only 3/8" wide to accept the 1/4" edge of the panel... >I could not seem to get the #45 set up to mae that narrow of a plough cut. > >so as I look at the completed door, I'm very pleased but I really want to >do the next one _entirely_ w/ handtools (excpet, for the Neanderbuddie ;-) > >So how would I go about ploughin out such a narrow groove right down the >middle of a narrow frame member? (I bechya there is a woodie made just for >this job, eh?) >-- >John A. Gunterman... Horse shoeing for cash only. > > Visit the New Apprentice Neanderthal Page at: >http://people.ne.mediaone.net/spokeshave/A_N.HTM > >-- > > ---- Start of Message 58131 (thread 25285) ---- From: "William H. Fissell" Date: 1999-02-21 00:18:00 Subject: Re: Groovin' Hey, y'all, wanted to thank John for his treatise on raised'n'fielded panels... was constructing the base for a built-in desk for SWMBO which I planned to have roughly match the doors in the house (stile-rail-fielded panel) and was totally dreading pushing my #78 through OAK. I'd been trying last night... and was really dejected.. enough to think about buying some MDF and going the kirby way So I read Mr. Spokeshave's treatise, fire up the #45 MofA sold me, plow some grooves, break out the #5 1/2 MofA sold me (notice a pattern?) and within about 20 minutes, I got meself a fielded panel tres cool I guess I gotta go plead for a #46 to do the cross-grain dadoes... the 45 was awful bumpy ciao all Bill ---- Start of Message 58132 (thread 25285) ---- From: "Phil Hopkins" Date: 1999-02-21 01:49:00 Subject: Re: Groovin' John shamelessly confesses to hideous grooving tactics: >The groves to recive the panles in the rails were made on the "3 Pony Saw".. >They needed to be only 3/8" wide to accept the 1/4" edge of the panel... >I could not seem to get the #45 set up to mae that narrow of a plough cut. >So how would I go about ploughin out such a narrow groove right down the >middle of a narrow frame member? (I bechya there is a woodie made just for >this job, eh?) Actually, although I like using my Greenfield toted boxwood nutted wooden plow (drive by gloat) for groovin, and have used it to groove lotsa 1/4" grooves in narrow and heavier stock, I find that for the light stuff (narrow grooves in narrow stock) the woodie gives me probably the same overwhelming the piece feel that you probably get with your #45 (don't know 'cause I don't have one and I ain't gonna get one). So I whip out just about my favorite plowin' tool (yes, you've heard me brag on it before....) my Record 044 Plough (<--- british spellin' for a british plane, don't you know). This little feller just nestles right into my hand, especially with that nice curved handle on the fence. I've bragged before that I've grooved 3 and 4 foot boards at an accurate 10 degree angle free hand with this rascal. Any plane that can do that is okay by me. It's well balanced and just the right size for these lighter plowing jobs. They're done in a jiffy and fun at that. I've even got a 1/8" iron for it and I've used it too. If'n you come across one, I highly recommend you snag it. Phil Who thinks you could've at least used a routah, for pete's sake. ---- Start of Message 58136 (thread 25285) ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 1999-02-21 03:18:00 Subject: Re: Groovin' >John shamelessly confesses to hideous grooving tactics: > >The groves to recive the panles in the rails were made on the "3 Pony >Saw".. They needed to be only 3/8" wide to accept the 1/4" edge of the >panel... >I could not seem to get the #45 set up to mae that narrow of a plough >cut. So how would I go about ploughin out such a narrow groove right down >the middle of a narrow frame member? (I bechya there is a woodie made >just for this job, eh?) > Yep. Match plows. Available in all sizes, 1/4 up to 1" and bigger. Lots of the smaller irons work in the bigger planes, and as ophans, they are fairly cheap. Only thing that they are lacking is a depth stop, other than the integral one, which is way too deep for most applications, but all's it takes is a little practice. I've used them on raised panel doors, my lamp projects and a couple of other things where a full plow would be too heavy or unwieldy. Just my .02 Tony ________________________________________________________ Old tools..don't leave home without them ________________________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 58478 (thread 25285) ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1999-02-25 22:40:00 Subject: Re: Groovin' ** Reply to note from "William H. Fissell" Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:18:49 +0000 > > I guess I gotta go plead for a #46 to do the cross-grain dadoes... the > 45 was awful bumpy Hey, this is redundant. A dado is by definition cross-grain. ernie fisch ---- Start of Message 58479 (thread 25285) ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1999-02-25 22:40:00 Subject: Re: Groovin' ** Reply to note from "John A. Gunterman" Sat, 20 Feb 1999 15:56:17 -0500 > > So how would I go about ploughin out such a narrow groove right down the > middle of a narrow frame member? (I bechya there is a woodie made just for > this job, eh?) The obvious answer is "very carefully". I have used my #45 (Stanley combination plane Jeff) to plow 1/4" grooves in the edges of some sides. You have to set it up very carefully and make some test cuts. You can only use one skate on these narrow grooves and the blade has to just peek out at the side of the skate. I have been more successful by starting the groove at the far end and gradually working back to the near end. Be careful and not too rambunctious and it should work well. It was groovin' that made me fall in love with the #45. ernie fisch ---- Start of Message 58482 (thread 25285) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-25 23:01:00 Subject: Re: Groovin' >Hey, this is redundant. A dado is by definition cross-grain. > just so I got this straigt.... a dado is cross grain. (skewed blade) a rebate is with the grain. (straight blade) right? ---- Start of Message 58485 (thread 25285) ---- From: ralph.brendler@a... (Ralph Brendler) Date: 1999-02-25 23:26:00 Subject: Re: Groovin' John Gunterman writes: >just so I got this straigt.... > >a dado is cross grain. (skewed blade) >a rebate is with the grain. (straight blade) > >right? Um, no... ;-) A dado is cross grain A *groove* is with the grain A rabbet/rebate can be either (but you better use a skewed blade if it is cross grain...) ralph ---- Start of Message 58487 (thread 25285) ---- From: Jimmy Reina Date: 1999-02-26 13:18:00 Subject: Re: Groovin' I'm curious- how many of us know what someone means when they say that they made a dadocut or a dado joint? How many knew what the original writer of this thread meant when thay wrote it? How many knew what the original writer meant, but when they saw the thread start, looked it up in a dictionary or other "authoritative source"? Jimmy stop-reading this-crazy-email-and-get-back-to-work Reina Ralph Brendler wrote: > > John Gunterman writes: > > >just so I got this straigt.... > > > >a dado is cross grain. (skewed blade) > >a rebate is with the grain. (straight blade) > > > >right? > > Um, no... ;-) > > A dado is cross grain > A *groove* is with the grain > > A rabbet/rebate can be either (but you better use a skewed blade if it is > cross grain...) > > ralph > > -- ++++ End of thread 25285 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25286 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58116 (thread 25286) ---- From: "Thomas Graham" Date: 1999-02-20 21:12:00 Subject: Re: Beech Blanks You may not have to wait for your friend to cut down a another beech tree. Ask him if he still has some pieces of beech firewood left. If they are split, they are almost quarter sawn to begin with. Quarter split anyway. Split them again until you get close to the dimension you want. Then work them square and you have a plane blank. Only problem may be the length he cut them to begin with. Tom Graham ++++ End of thread 25286 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25287 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58124 (thread 25287) ---- From: Howard Slack Date: 1999-02-20 23:49:00 Subject: Re: Banjo, IWCS WARNING: BANJO TALK AHEAD >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephan Patnaude wrote: > They'll have to pry my vintage Gibson Mastertone from my > cold dead fingers...assuming of course that six fast breaks of > Hot Corn/Cold Corn doesn't send 'em howling through the thicket. I don't have a 'pre-war Gibson, but a flamed maple Stelling Bellflower that suits me just fine. Nowadays Bellflowers are walnut, so perhaps this was an option before Geoff came out with the maple Sunflower (?). FLASH! Hey Stephan, do you suppose if we came to a tool meet with our banjos we could drive away some of our tool-buying competition? (explanation to all the non-banjoites out there - banjo players take so much ribbing that we have to have very thick skin. Sometimes we apply a little preemptive humor to protect ourselves against the constant flow of banjo-jokes from our guitar-playing friends) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>BANJO TALK ALL-CLEAR John Gunterman also wondered if the IWCS (International Wood Collector's Society) was 'for real'. It is, and you can find their web site at http://www.woodcollectors.org/ . Another good site for woodworkers, with links all over the place, is http://www.kiva.net/~rjbrown/w5/wood.html, called W5 (WoodWorking on the WWW). IWCS puts out a monthly magazine also, and has various shows/auctions/swap meets all over the world. Although it was started here in the USA, it seems to be growing quite well in Australia too. Try the site for information, or if you want I can mail you a brochure. I'm not much for gloating (contrary to what Steve Jones says), but one little thing - the other day I found a breast drill in an antique store for $2, only needing a 5/16 screw to hold the breast support (or whatever it's called) in place. A little WD40 and it spins just fine. Now I suppose if I was a truly shameless bottomfeeder I would have offered to take it off her hands for $1 or 50 cents, or to remove it for free so she wouldn't be embarassed by the missing screw, but I went ahead and paid the full price. Howard Slack ---- Start of Message 58237 (thread 25287) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-23 02:38:00 Subject: Re: Banjo, IWCS -----Original Message----- From: Howard Slack >FLASH! Hey Stephan, do you suppose if we came to a tool meet with our >banjos we could drive away some of our tool-buying competition? Seven words you will never hear: "The Ferrari belongs to the banjo player." Q: D'ya know the definition of a gentleman? A: A man who knows how to play the banjo, but doesn't. >John Gunterman also wondered if the IWCS (International Wood Collector's >Society) was 'for real'. It is Yes it is - as a matter of fact, I'm a card-carrying member since sometime last year. I get a little magazine with a few interesting articles. It seems to me that IWCS really caters more to the interests of people who collect wood samples, rather than woodworkers, although woodworkers are welcome and certainly fit in... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) On the road in Philadelphia, PA wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 58243 (thread 25287) ---- From: Howard Slack Date: 1999-02-23 03:49:00 Subject: Re: Banjo, IWCS William K. Taggart wrote: > Seven words you will never hear: > "The Ferrari belongs to the banjo player." Like so many other jokes that start out as lawyer jokes and the target gets changed, banjo jokes also seem to fit a pattern. This one I first saw as a luthier joke, but who knows where it really started. There are whole web sites devoted to musician's jokes, as I am sure every other kind of joke under the sun. > It seems to me that IWCS really caters more to the interests > of people who collect wood samples, rather than woodworkers, > although woodworkers are welcome and certainly fit in... > There is a bit of controversy with some on this topic (not me). The IWCS was started by people who collected standard sized samples, and there are still a lot who continue in that mold. I have quite a few myself. But the people in all the meetings I have attended (Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania) have been almost entirely crafts-oriented (lathe turning, scroll sawing, furniture making, carving, etc.) In fact when you join, you list all the various ways that you personally work with wood. Some are academic or legal, others are woodworkers, others are collectors. Regardless of the reason for joining, we all have an interest in learning more about the various woods. ++++ End of thread 25287 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25288 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58126 (thread 25288) ---- From: "Alan N. Graham" Date: 1999-02-21 00:00:00 Subject: Shellac Question - Summary My thanks to the many galoots who provided a wide variety of answers to my request for a "kitchen table" method of preparing shellac. Geoff Roehm uses one volume of shellac flakes to two volumes of alcohol as his starting point for french polish. Paul Radovanic uses the same approach for his finish coat, dilutes that to half strength for his wiping coats, and dilutes it to one quarter strength for sealing coats. Michael Shortreed puts one measure of shellac in a mason jar, adds just enough alcohol to cover plus just a bit more, and uses it as a sealer. Esther Heller starts with matching volumes of shellac and alcohol, which she believes gives about a #3 cut. Esther points out (among other interesting things about mixing shellac) that this can be thinned down easily if too heavy. A number of others divide a pound into equal portions and calculate the number of ounces per portion rather than measuring. Several suggested buying a used postal scale. Lawrence Smith pointed out the "Two pounds, One gallon" approach only works if you are using U.S. gallons, a measure unique to only one country in the world. I expect to try the "equal volumes for finishing coat, one to two for first coat and one to three for sealing end grain" approach as a starting point. I will also try and remember Esther suggestion to put a plastic bag (2 layers) over the mouth before I put on the lid to prevent ending up with a shellac version of a "snow globe".* Alan N. Graham * "snow globe" - a closed container full of flakes that you shake up - usually containing a small rural scene - but which would in this case contain a volume of totally inaccessible shellac. ++++ End of thread 25288 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25289 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58130 (thread 25289) ---- From: "George Langford, Sc.D." Date: 1999-02-21 00:59:00 Subject: Re: The regimental condom & fake #1's selling for what the real thing used to command Hi GG's ! First: To what have we come when this happens: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=66804742 Shows what scarcity will do, I guess; or reverse psychology. Now to the real thing. Drove by a Chester County antique shop that usually has junk. Nabbed an HTG carpenter's bench with both vises still intact and working. Top slab is about 16 by 3 inches by eight feet, one chunk of ... not sure yet. This bench clearly sat out in the elements for quite some time, so it is now (a) a gorgeous shade of silver, like New England cedar shake siding and (b) extremely grainy & rough on the working surface. My questions for the galootinous wisdom are: (1) Is it wise to plane the top smooth; and (2) Should I apply any finish to stabilize the top, once it has dried out and I have gotten it flat again ? I would apply that finish all the way around the top, of course. There is lots of time. There is considerable excess water, but to my relief, no rot. The vise screws are arn (or steel; hard to tell) and both the left hand face vise and the right hand tail vise work acceptably well. All the (square) dog holes are OK, but are quite rounded at the top. It is constucted in mortise & tenon style, with some iron pegs and some wooden ones. I got it home myself in a Toyota SW (estate wagon, Jeff). The top is staggeringly heavy, but lifts right off so that the bottom can be walked right along in hobo-wearing-a-barrel fashion. I even have another wooden face vise to apply to the right front leg so I can grip long boards (or saws for sharpening). I gave it the place of honor in a workshed/firewood drying house that I built 25 years ago. Not too soon for a proper workbench ? About twenty cords of F/W got dried in that place; about half of which I split (half of that cut with a crosscut saw) myself with hammer & wedges. So it's time I had some fun out there. Oh yeah; it set me back a hundred-and-a-half. Try that in Manhattan. The odd lead-in ? Why, I'm expecting a consensus from you all on what exactly to do with the top of this very, very old workbench. Lots of carpenters must have used it. That's the basis of the punch line in the regimental condom joke. I had to explain that, didn't I ? Best regards in SE PA after an astonishingly nice day. George Langford amenex@e... ---- Start of Message 58150 (thread 25289) ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 1999-02-21 19:15:00 Subject: Re: The regimental condom & fake #1's selling for what the real thing used to command At 07:59 PM 2/20/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi GG's ! > >First: To what have we come when this happens: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=66804742 > >Shows what scarcity will do, I guess; or reverse psychology. Well, I hope it was a rare fake! Does anybody else remember Clifford Irving? Congratulations on your new bench. ++++ End of thread 25289 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25290 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58133 (thread 25290) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-02-21 02:04:00 Subject: bewildering cutting angles I am starting to get a bit bewildered in my understanding of cutting angles. Tonight I rehandled and sharpened a beautiful old James Swan chisel. About a 3/4" wide with a deep triangular "backbone" in cross section, the chisel is shaped for paring with the handle angled up a touch. I screwed up. When I was grinding the end on a hand grinder I put the base of the chisel on the wrong stop. Thought the angle seemed wrong while scary sharpening it, but finished sharpening it, then measured. About 35 degrees. Tried cutting with a flat paring stroke. It cut like a dream with translucent shavings. Better than a similar thick witherby, properly ground. So...what is going on? What is the right angle? If anything, I would have thought a chisel for paring should be ground flatter than 25 degrees. I would appreciate any thoughts anyone has. ---- Start of Message 58137 (thread 25290) ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 1999-02-21 03:14:00 Subject: Re: bewildering cutting angles John Lederer >So...what is going on? What is the right >angle? If anything, I would have thought a >chisel for paring should be ground flatter >than 25 degrees. > >I would appreciate any thoughts anyone has. I can't say what is going on with your two chisels except that maybe you got the second chisel sharper than the first, even though the bevel angle on the second is 35 degrees. I have a couple of chisels I use for paring and they are ground to about 20 degrees, maybe a little less. They pare wood with greater control and less resistance than similar chisels ground to 30 degrees or greater. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Will Work For Tools Survival Tips For Beginner Galoots are at The Galoot's Progress: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ---- Start of Message 58139 (thread 25290) ---- From: carlwshp Date: 1999-02-21 03:54:00 Subject: Re: bewildering cutting angles Hello Everyone, I second what Tom said, I have a 20 degrees bevel on my Withbery's, They cut Hard maple with little effort. Carl Murphy Eastport, Maine TomPrice@a... wrote: > John Lederer > > >So...what is going on? What is the right > >angle? If anything, I would have thought a > >chisel for paring should be ground flatter > >than 25 degrees. > > > >I would appreciate any thoughts anyone has. > > I can't say what is going on with your two chisels except that maybe you > got the second chisel sharper than the first, even though the bevel angle > on the second is 35 degrees. I have a couple of chisels I use for paring > and they are ground to about 20 degrees, maybe a little less. They pare > wood with greater control and less resistance than similar chisels ground > to 30 degrees or greater. > **************************** > Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) > Will Work For Tools > Survival Tips For Beginner Galoots are at The Galoot's Progress: > http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html > > -- ---- Start of Message 58141 (thread 25290) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 1999-02-21 06:06:00 Subject: Re: bewildering cutting angles On Sat, 20 Feb 1999 20:04:58 -0600, John H. Lederer wrote: >I made a handle for it >out of a piece of walnut firewood. These >are walnut branches that the saw mill >wouldn't take, the heartwood is only 2-4" >inches in diameter. I find it difficult to believe that there is such a thing as walnut (or cherry) firewood. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA New Email address: avogadro@b... (also avogadro@w...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 58149 (thread 25290) ---- From: phonore@i... (Paul Honore) Date: 1999-02-21 15:14:00 Subject: Re: bewildering cutting angles Mike Sullivan writes: > >I find it difficult to believe that there is such a thing as walnut (or >cherry) firewood. I took a weekend class in Tumber Framing awhile back and of course, the insructor brought in some major timbers for us to work on. One was an 8 X 8 piece of cherry about 10' long. (about 55 board feet I guess). He said the mill couldn't sell if for lumber because of the "defects" (I couldn't see any) so he got if for 50 cents/ b.f. Looked like lots of good useable lumber to me. Sure made a good looking frame. By the way, the same class is running for a weekend in a few weeks in Manchester CT if anyone is interested. Paul Honore Hebron CT ---- Start of Message 58162 (thread 25290) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-02-21 22:49:00 Subject: Re: bewildering cutting angles TomPrice@a... wrote: > John Lederer > > >So...what is going on? What is the right > >angle? If anything, I would have thought a > >chisel for paring should be ground flatter > >than 25 degrees. > > > >I would appreciate any thoughts anyone has. > > I can't say what is going on with your two chisels except that maybe you > got the second chisel sharper than the first, even though the bevel angle > on the second is 35 degrees. Well I think I am starting to get a glimmer, though it is perfectly possible that is the experimenter making errors. What I am doing is flattening the bottom of a 15"x 2" dado 28" long, so I am going across grain. I just tried grinding a bar 5/8 x 1/4 at different angles and cutting with it-- no fancy sharpening (done on a p*w*r disk with 240 grit and then a quick deburring on a Norton oilstone) but pretty consistent What seems to be happening as the angle gets steeper is that the depth of cut thins. A very steep angle (70 degrees) is almost like scraping. The shallower angles can easily cut more wood with less effort--- perhaps too easily. With shallow angles one has to control the depth of cut, with the very steep angles the tool requires almost no control, and very little effort, but it is cutting whisper thin shavings. I did notice one additional thing, though the front of the tool is cutting very well even at seemingly impossible angles, the side of the cut starts to have problems at much above 30 degrees-- a ragged whisker edge on each side of the cut. I didn't try cutting with the grain since I wanted to get the dado done. Regards, John Lederer Oregon, Wisconsin ---- Start of Message 58172 (thread 25290) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-02-22 01:36:00 Subject: Re: bewildering cutting angles On Sat, 20 Feb 1999 20:04:58 -0600 "John H. Lederer" writes: >For extra credit-- I made a handle for it >out of a piece of walnut firewood. These >are walnut branches that the saw mill >wouldn't take, the heartwood is only 2-4" >inches in diameter. It tends to have striking >greenish or green-yellowish streaks in it >which tend to fade a bit with time. Anybody >seen walnut like this? I haven't and wonder >if it is a property of the small branch wood. > No I haven't. I wonder if it isn't black locust--I could tell by the smell, but I can't smell it by email. Black locust is also harder than walnut, and the bark will have deeper and somewhat more irregulat grooves. The clincher would be if you find thorns on it somewhere. It might also be the case that the tree was diseased. ---- Start of Message 58178 (thread 25290) ---- From: "Ron Harper" Date: 1999-02-22 02:52:00 Subject: Re: bewildering cutting angles I have some walnut with green streaks in it Ron -----Original Message----- From: Douglas S Caprette To: johnl@i... Cc: oldtools@l... Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 8:41 PM Subject: Re: bewildering cutting angles > >On Sat, 20 Feb 1999 20:04:58 -0600 "John H. Lederer" >writes: > >>For extra credit-- I made a handle for it >>out of a piece of walnut firewood. These >>are walnut branches that the saw mill >>wouldn't take, the heartwood is only 2-4" >>inches in diameter. It tends to have striking >>greenish or green-yellowish streaks in it >>which tend to fade a bit with time. Anybody >>seen walnut like this? I haven't and wonder >>if it is a property of the small branch wood. >> > >No I haven't. I wonder if it isn't black locust--I could tell by the >smell, but >I can't smell it by email. > >Black locust is also harder than walnut, and the bark will have deeper >and somewhat more irregulat grooves. The clincher would be if you >find thorns on it somewhere. > >It might also be the case that the tree was diseased. > >-- > > ---- Start of Message 58181 (thread 25290) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-02-22 03:27:00 Subject: Re: bewildering cutting angles Ron Harper wrote: > I have some walnut with green streaks in it > Is it from larger or smaller parts of the tree? (Guess you won't know if it is boards...but are they small boards?). I like the color streaks, though they seem to fade with exposure. I am finding the last few loads of wood a real learning experience as I split them. They are what the local prison sells as "campfire wood" for $7.50 a pickup load -- odd sized pieces, crotches, pieces that wouldn't split, the wedges sawed out to fell a tree, etc. I have a couple of pieces of oak that look like what we called monkeys' fists' in the navy, some figured maple that splits in ripples but is a bit punky, mulberry, cherry, locust, elm, ash, plum,(I think...deep dark chocalate brown) and some of the straightest whitest willow one could imagine (cricket bats are the only thing I know willow to be used for). Of course you can imagine how fast the splitting goes when every once in while one stops to froe and plane a piece, or put it in the lathe. SWMBO came out this afternoon, looked at my measly pile of split wood and accused me of loafing to dodge housework. She was not impressed with my rough turned cylinders of brown and yellow striped mulberry set aside to dry. ---- Start of Message 58222 (thread 25290) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-02-22 22:51:00 Subject: Re: bewildering cutting angles The tool was really just an experiment -- simply to find the effects of different angles. I simply push the bar across the wood at the bottom of the dado with the bevel up. 70 degrees is not the best angle, about 40 seemed best, but that is a long cry from the 25 degrees or less of what I normally use for paring.. All started when I ground a big long swan chisel wrong..and found it cut better (or at least differently). I have a dado plane but the dado is too deep to use it comfortably, so I was using a chisel on the bottom. I made the dado by sawing and chiseling. Now I need to get it smooth to glue in the maple strip to fix a little mistake in depth . > How are you using this tool? I can't visualize from this > description. > > It is a piece of flat stock, 5/8" wide, 1/4" thick? > ++++ End of thread 25290 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25291 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58140 (thread 25291) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-02-21 04:21:00 Subject: Level repair and new auger repair I picked up a nice wooden level at the flea market, unfortunately the bottom is not flat. Would it be normal practice to use a jointing plane on it to make it flat? I'm not really thrilled about 5 sides with patina and one without, however, I do need to use this beast. Second question, Like a fool I went out and bought an auger from HD. After trying it and being really pissed at the moron who designed this thing I'm thinking about "fixing" it. The cutter blade is the same height as the nicker, making the nicker pointless and tear out horrible. I'm considering using the dremel with a cutter blade to take the cutter on the auger down to where it is a thread below the nicker. Unfortunately this puts the cutter 1/4 turn away from the nicker. Will this be a problem? Roger Books (Who really appreciates all the help I have been receiving) ---- Start of Message 58154 (thread 25291) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-02-21 17:36:00 Subject: Re: Level repair and new auger repair At 11:21 PM -0500 2/20/99, Roger Books wrote: > Like a fool I went out and bought an auger from >HD. Hey, you said it, not me ;-) The "tuning" procedure Roger contemplates sounds like trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear, as they used to say when fine purses were silk and sow's ears common. I don't know nothin' bout physics and mechanics, but it seems to me that the configurations and tolerances of a well made auger bit are such that such tinkering could be an exercise in frustration. We all know what certain on-line auction services have done to the bygone FMM, but I think auger bits are among the tool items that have not found a market among the speculators and collectors, yet. Galoot story follows: At a regional MWTCA meet a while back I was browsing among the wares being tailgated, most at Full Retail. Late in the session I came across a full 4-16 set of primo Russell Jennings augers in an original olive green canvas roll (maybe a govt contract order?). The paper tag attached said "15". I asked the old feller if this was an inventory code, and he answered "No, that's the price." IOW, there among the toolies, he was having trouble getting rid of a good set of bits for a buck and a quarter apiece. (Probably if they had been in the proverbial three-tiered wooden box, which has nothing to do with the usability of the augers other than providing protection in storage, he could have sold them early for $60-80.) Needless to say, those augers came home with me. I do have some extra RJ and other augers in my stash that I plan to offer to pass on to Roger for a reasonable sum, and I will conclude by suggesting that even in the current market environment there is surely still a place for FSs and WTBs here on the list--focusing on user tools, parts, orphans, and the like. Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 58179 (thread 25291) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-02-22 03:04:00 Subject: Re: Level repair and new auger repair Tom Holloway wrote: > > At 11:21 PM -0500 2/20/99, Roger Books wrote: > > Like a fool I went out and bought an auger from > >HD. > > Hey, you said it, not me ;-) The "tuning" procedure Roger > contemplates sounds like trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear, as > they used to say when fine purses were silk and sow's ears common. I don't > know nothin' bout physics and mechanics, but it seems to me that the > configurations and tolerances of a well made auger bit are such that such > tinkering could be an exercise in frustration. Nope, went pretty well. The thing now works like a champ. Basicly I removed enough stock that the cutting edge was more than a thread below the nicker. Then you have to make sure that the stack between the cutting edge and the nicker is lower than cutting edge. Grinding from the bottom you then sharpen the beast and re-sharpen the nicker because you screwed up and hit it at some point. Oh, dip in water often during the process. I'm not entirely sure it is worthwhile, the screw is rather brittle. But it should work for making dog holes in my new bench top. > IOW, there among the toolies, he > was having trouble getting rid of a good set of bits for a buck and a > quarter apiece. (Probably if they had been in the proverbial three-tiered > wooden box, which has nothing to do with the usability of the augers other > than providing protection in storage, he could have sold them early for > $60-80.) Needless to say, those augers came home with me. Nice, the guy wants $3 apiece for auger bits that I don't think I could salvage, even playing dremel tricks. I did manage to fix an abused 16, of course that was partially because the booth was left in charge of someone else and I got him to throw a few bits in with the auger I bought. Roger Books ---- Start of Message 58200 (thread 25291) ---- From: joseph meyer Date: 1999-02-22 14:26:00 Subject: Re: Level repair and new auger repair Tom Holloway writes: > I think auger bits are among the tool items that have not > found a market among the speculators and collectors, yet. speculators, maybe not, collectors yet. I'm user all the way until it comes to these things. Last count was 330+. It all started with the one mismatched set, just had to keep buying to get that turned into one matched set, which of course left 3 or 4 mistmatched sets, which snowballed....... I figure if I can only buy the ones I need, no duplicates, I will probably be looking at 700+ by the time I'm done. Course, I've only got two braces.... Joe Meyer ---- Start of Message 58201 (thread 25291) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-02-22 14:25:00 Subject: Re: Level repair and new auger repair I believe that it may be statistically probable that with this approach you will end up with all the auger bits ever made before the sets are all complete joseph meyer wrote: > speculators, maybe not, collectors yet. I'm user all the way until it > comes to these things. Last count was 330+. It all started with the one > mismatched set, just had to keep buying to get that turned into one > matched set, which of course left 3 or 4 mistmatched sets, which > snowballed....... I figure if I can only buy the ones I need, no > duplicates, I will probably be looking at 700+ by the time I'm done. > Course, I've only got two braces.... > > Jo ++++ End of thread 25291 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25292 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58146 (thread 25292) ---- From: "Matthew Matheny" Date: 1999-02-21 14:25:00 Subject: I am trying to start a woodworking bussiness. This is all fine and dandy, but the problem is that I need to find a sawyer who deals with our friend the dense oily hardwoods. Including, but not limited to... Cocobolo, Purpleheart, ebony, Redheart, Zebrawood, etc, etc. So if anybody knows somewhere that either does mail-out wood, or a place that is in the boston area, that would be a great help. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ++++ End of thread 25292 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25293 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58147 (thread 25293) ---- From: Paul Aud Date: 1999-02-21 14:37:00 Subject: walnut firewood > >I find it difficult to believe that there is such a thing as walnut (or >cherry) firewood. Let me reassure you, there IS such a thing as walnut firewood. My dad has some. I dont' know what he was thinking. When I went home, I found a bunch of walnut all cut up, split, and ready for the fire! Well, now I've got a bunch of walnut logs sitting at home working on drying. later, Oddball ---- Start of Message 58170 (thread 25293) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-02-22 00:47:00 Subject: Re: walnut firewood Galoots in a daze over Wwalnut firewood. That is nothing. I've seen clear, fine walnut railroad ties (creosoted of course) and beautiful cherry, tiger maple and white oak one too. Slash and burn timbering at it best I think. Karl ---- Start of Message 58174 (thread 25293) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-02-22 01:36:00 Subject: Re: walnut firewood On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:37:56 -0500 Paul Aud writes: >> >>I find it difficult to believe that there is such a thing as walnut >(or >>cherry) firewood. > >Let me reassure you, there IS such a thing as walnut firewood. My dad >has some. I dont' know what he was thinking. When I went home, I found a >bunch of walnut all cut up, split, and ready for the fire! Well, now >I've got a bunch of walnut logs sitting at home working on drying. >later, >Oddball > >-- Well, I say for certain that there is such a thing as cherry pallets. I have dis- mantled several, they seem to mostly come from the Kodak factory in Rochester, NY. Also, one of my neighbor's had a dead black walnut cut down and I had to rescue the wood from another neighbor who was busy splitting it up for firewood. He found it much easier to split than Chinese elm. ---- Start of Message 58177 (thread 25293) ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 1999-02-22 05:44:00 Subject: Re: walnut firewood At 08:36 PM 2/21/99 EST, Douglas S Caprette wrote: > >>On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:37:56 -0500 Paul Aud writes: ... >>>I find it difficult to believe that there is such a thing as walnut >>>(or cherry) firewood. ... >>Let me reassure you, there IS such a thing as walnut firewood. ... > >Well, I say for certain that there is such a thing as cherry pallets. I >have dismantled several, they seem to mostly come from the Kodak factory >in Rochester, NY. > >Also, one of my neighbor's had a dead black walnut cut down and I had to >rescue the wood from another neighbor who was busy splitting it up for >firewood. He found it much easier to split than Chinese elm. Bet your neighbors treat their particle-board trees more carefully! -jgn ---- Start of Message 58210 (thread 25293) ---- From: Mike Yazel Date: 1999-02-22 18:31:00 Subject: Re: walnut firewood Karl W. Sanger wrote: > Galoots in a daze over Wwalnut firewood. That is nothing. I've seen > clear, fine walnut railroad ties (creosoted of course) and beautiful > cherry, tiger maple and white oak one too. Slash and burn timbering > at it > best I think. > > Karl > When I took the barn down I plan to reraise at my house I found to > my suprise the lower level was sided in board and batten walnut. The > real find though was the siding boards under the overshot section, 27" > wide 14' long 1 1/8 thick walnut. been there since 1850 and sound as > the day they hung them, the widest board in the structure was in the > grainery, 34" wide yellow poplar. Mike Yazel > -- ---- Start of Message 58219 (thread 25293) ---- From: David Strommen Date: 1999-02-22 16:38:00 Subject: Re: walnut firewood > At 08:36 PM 2/21/99 EST, Douglas S Caprette wrote: > > > >>On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:37:56 -0500 Paul Aud writes: > >>I find it difficult to believe that there is such a thing as walnut > >(or > >>cherry) firewood. > > > >Let me reassure you, there IS such a thing as walnut firewood. My dad > >has some. I dont' know what he was thinking. When I went home, I found > a > >bunch of walnut all cut up, split, and ready for the fire! Well, now > >I've got a bunch of walnut logs sitting at home working on drying. > >later, > >Oddball > > > >-- > > Well, I say for certain that there is such a thing as cherry pallets. I > have dis- > mantled several, they seem to mostly come from the Kodak factory in > Rochester, > NY. > > Also, one of my neighbor's had a dead black walnut cut down and I had to > rescue the wood from another neighbor who was busy splitting it up for > firewood. He found it much easier to split than Chinese elm. I "rescued" a few boards on a pallet reciently that looked interesting - turned out to be purple heart - the pallet was from a shipment from South America. Truely slash and burn! Dave Strommen (teaching tomorrows Galoots!) Elkhart, IN ---- Start of Message 58235 (thread 25293) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-23 02:38:00 Subject: Re: walnut firewood -----Original Message----- From: Paul Aud >>I find it difficult to believe that there is such a thing as walnut (or >>cherry) firewood. I've found that cherry seems to burn better than black walnut. Black walnut seems to take longer to season, but when it does, it seems to burn quite slowly, and not always completely... I've got a spokeshave body in progress (for about 6 months now) made from black walnut firewood. Also got a pale attempt at a mallet with a turned maple handle and a black walnut head, all from firewood. Got 200+/- b.f. of cherry drying in the garage - had some scraps that went into the fireplace - burned quite nicely... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) On the road in Philadelphia, PA wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ++++ End of thread 25293 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25294 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58153 (thread 25294) ---- From: ecoyle@c... (eric coyle) Date: 1999-02-21 17:01:00 Subject: Scotch wet-stone query Cowtown Eric picked up a little "Tam-O-Shanter" stone the other day, and was kinda wondering if it is a semi-modern immigrant from the UK, or whether it's achieved the categorization of an "old-tool". It certainly has a funky grain to it, and shows no signs of abuse. Richard? Mike? Cowtown Eric ---- Start of Message 58157 (thread 25294) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1999-02-21 18:43:00 Subject: Re: Scotch wet-stone query At 10:01 AM -0700 2/21/99, eric coyle asked: >Cowtown Eric picked up a little "Tam-O-Shanter" stone the other day, and was >kinda wondering if it is a semi-modern immigrant from the UK, or whether >it's achieved the categorization of an "old-tool". > >It certainly has a funky grain to it, and shows no signs of abuse. > >Richard? Mike? Some months back a coworker brought in a small watchmakers tool kit he'd picked up at auction. Among the items were a couple of small "Water-of-Ayr" stones, obviously well cared for, one with a label on it. The label mentioned "Tam-O-Shanter" stones as another product of the same company. I did a little net research and discovered there is a small company/quarry in the town of Stair, Scotland which still produces these stones. The town and company are located on the Ayr River in southwest Scotland. Unfortunately I can't find the website with this information at present. I think the term "Water-of-Ayr" is a poetic reference to the Ayr River, likely from the Scottish poet Robert Burns who was known to habituate those environs. I think the term "Tam-O-Shanter" also has some poetic association with Burns as well. It's my impression that these stones are commonly used by watch and clock makers and repairers for deburring and polishing parts. I don't know how effective they would be on tool steel. I think Richard can shed some light on this, as we'd discussed them after I'd done my "research." Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 58214 (thread 25294) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-02-22 19:03:00 Subject: RE: Scotch wet-stone query ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Don ~ McConnell ~ Sent: Sunday, February 21, 1999 6:43 PM ~ To: oldtools@l... ~ Cc: ecoyle@c... ~ Subject: Re: Scotch wet-stone query ~ ~ It's my impression that these stones are commonly used by ~ watch and clock ~ makers and repairers for deburring and polishing parts. I ~ don't know how ~ effective they would be on tool steel. Also used by jewellers for removing tool marks and the like. I have a few that vary in size down to a fragile 1/8" square. I suspect that on steel they are a bit too fine for uses other than polishing, though I once used one to sharpen the 'iridium' tip of a calligrapher's fountain pen. Saliva is the obligatory lubricant, I think! 8-;. Jeff ---- Start of Message 58283 (thread 25294) ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1999-02-23 18:03:00 Subject: Re: Scotch wet-stone query > I can't resist the direct appeal by name, - > > >eric coyle wrote: > > > >Cowtown Eric picked up a little "Tam-O-Shanter" stone the other day, and was > > >kinda wondering if it is a semi-modern immigrant from the UK, or whether > > >it's achieved the categorization of an "old-tool". > > > > >Richard? Mike? > > Then Don McConnell weighed in. . . > ..snipped.. > >I think the term "Water-of-Ayr" is a poetic reference to the Ayr River, > >likely from the Scottish poet Robert Burns who was known to habituate those > >environs. I think the term "Tam-O-Shanter" also has some poetic association > >with Burns as well. > > >I think Richard can shed some light on this, as we'd discussed them after > >I'd done my "research." > > So with two of the great lights of the list chasing me I had to go and visit > my tiny library (shelf) of reference works. Buck & Hickman carried > the said Tam O'Shanter hones in 1958. 6 x 1 1/2 x 1/2 cost 4/6. (That's > four shillings and sixpence) a larger stone, at 7 x 1 1/2 x 5/8 was 5/9. > > Incidentally, on the same page are Belgian Hones, 'Scotch Dalmore Blue Hone' > Water of Ayr sticks, and Washita Gouge slips. Pages of the catalogue are > devoted to stones. I checked a J&H Smith catalogue, which has even more > fascinating lists and pictures of stuff, but nowt of relevance. > > The Tam-O-Shanter is the round baggy cloth cap, much caricatured, > Scottich cap, where the top is much wider than the head band. The > character T-O-S was the hero of the Burn's poem of the same name. > > And Ayrshire is famous for its bacon. > > Richard Wilson ++++ End of thread 25294 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25295 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58156 (thread 25295) ---- From: "Adajian" Date: 1999-02-21 18:11:00 Subject: Went to Crane's and Adria gloat. G.G's Well, made the once or twice a year pilgrimage to Crane's auction in Nashua this weekend, and was sorry to hear that the business has been sold to a larger company. Hope this doesn't affect the homey atmosphere that I've come to know and love.(I mean, where else can you go and listen with sometimes quiet, but not always, amusement to the odd tool or syrup joke?) Prices seemed to me to run to the low side, but I didn't stay for the whole auction. I did pick up one or two items though. A nice, straight, 7" backing saw by Henry Disston, a group of four differently marked rounders, a lot of three rosewood bevel gages, different makers, and a couple of nice Buck firmers, but they were from the tailgating outside. It seemed a little strange to me that about a half hour into the auction, the gathering had thinned considerably. Guess you'd say that there wasn't anything really fantastic or Earth shattering on the block, but it was still a lot of fun, for me anyway! As is usual at such gatherings, there was a couple of the "Tool Gods" there. Got to talk to Pat Leach again, which is always a pleasure for me, as he's such a knowledgable individul, and always willing to answer the odd question for those, myself included, who are still lacking in the finer points of tooling and tooldom. Martin Donnelly was there, as well as a man who's work and writting I admire, Mike Dunbar.I'd never met the man before, but I've got his book on restoring antique tools, a gift from my parents last Christmas. Mike was very approachable. I walked up, shook his hand, and told him how much I admired his work. I also told him that had I known he was going to be there, I would have brought my book for him to autograph. Out comes his wallet, and he hands me a business card of his, and says "Stop up anytime, and we'll take care of that for you" He also asked me to thank my parents for buying his book for me, nice guy! And, as long as I'm here, I'll give a short review of my new Adria Tools dovetail saw. I ordered this saw around Nov. of last year, and it arrived last week. What a beauty! Very clean lines and very comfortable in the hand. Tried it out on some dovetails in red oak, and it cut out the pins and tails as smooth as an oceanliner on a still sea. Definately a tool that my children's children's children will be able to use. Thanks, Eddie! Gary A. In the wilds of the N.W. hills of Connecticut ---- Start of Message 58168 (thread 25295) ---- From: Bill Neely Date: 1999-02-21 16:22:00 Subject: Re: Went to Crane's and Adria gloat. Forgive my ignorance. What is a backing saw? Bill Neely Adajian wrote: > > I did pick up one or two items though. A nice, straight, 7" > backing saw by Henry Disstonh ---- Start of Message 58193 (thread 25295) ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 1999-02-22 12:06:00 Subject: Re: Went to Crane's and Adria gloat. Hi, Bill, and others What Crane's lists call "backing saws" are what all the rest of us call "backsaws". There are a number of other quaint terms that show up on Crane's lists. One gets used to them. For instance, "poles" = polls, "rounding planes" are rounds. I suppose that this will all change under the new managment -- too bad! Trevor Robinson ++++ End of thread 25295 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25296 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58158 (thread 25296) ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1999-02-21 19:16:00 Subject: exotics suppliers Matthew -- Can't help in Boston, but I highly recommend both The Woodworker's Source, in Tucson and Phoenix (I'm a regular customer), and Tropical, Exotic Hardwoods, in Carlsbad CA. Both do mail order, and have excellent wood. Both have 800 numbrs which you can get from either their ads in wwing mags, or 800-555-1212; and both have websites: www.woodworkerssource.com www.anexotichardwood.com On Sun, 21 Feb 1999, Matthew Matheny wrote: > I am trying to start a woodworking bussiness. This is all fine and > dandy, but the problem is that I need to find a sawyer who deals with > our friend the dense oily hardwoods. Including, but not limited to... > Cocobolo, Purpleheart, ebony, Redheart, Zebrawood, etc, etc. So if > anybody knows somewhere that either does mail-out wood, or a place that > is in the boston area, that would be a great help. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > -- > > > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Andrew Barss Department of Linguistics, University of Arizona Communications 304B, 621-6897 http://www.u.arizona.edu/~barss <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ++++ End of thread 25296 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25297 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58159 (thread 25297) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-02-21 21:40:00 Subject: RE: Set of 4 Saws from G&W - Thanks Thanks Ron, Kevin and George. You saved me a $100. Well maybe not. You saved me from spending $100 on second rate tools. The consensus was: "... buy an old one. They work better, feel better and look better." Big surprise. (not!) I needed a little help resisting the shiny pictures in the G&W catalog. I have an Adria and a Disston #68 (thank you Dave) and they are both great tools. I will be patient and accumulate old Disstons. Adam ++++ End of thread 25297 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25298 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58160 (thread 25298) ---- From: beckerm@a... (Mark Becker) Date: 1999-02-22 05:01:00 Subject: Laminated Japanese vs Hock Blade - The results are in Some of you may remember a while back when I asked for info comparing Hock Blades with some laminated Japanese blades being sold by the local WoodWorker's Club. Responses (thanks again, Esther) were minimal and I ended up purchasing both and can now report, that IMHO, the Hock blade is the better choice for the following reasons: 1. It seems a bit softer (although not soft by any means) and significantly easier to put an edge on, not to mention polishing the back. 2. The laminated plan's cutting edge was very brittle and due to a either a deep scratch as received on the back, or an internal flaw an ~ 3/32" by 1/4" segment broke out on my very first swipe with a lightly set #4. On the 2nd swipe another smaller segment fractured. Upon careful examination I would have had to grind another 1/8" across the entire edge before finding out if it would hold. Not being sure I'd live long enough (did I mention it was very hard?), I returned the blade to WWC where a full credit was received. 3. Edge sharpness seems to be similar following honing, which on the Hock went very quickly. FYI, the hock is doing a fine job. Last but not least, a while back I was told that Hock blades were dark. This one was decidedly light/silvery in color. Does anyone know why? Beck ---- Start of Message 58165 (thread 25298) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-21 23:47:00 Subject: Re: Laminated Japanese vs Hock Blade - The results are in >Last but not least, a while back I was told that Hock blades were >dark. This one was decidedly light/silvery in color. Does anyone know >why? that would mean that Ron is now stockng the pipeline with the "new" blades.... Blanchard Ground _after_ heat treatment..... perfectly flat back's are a result. ---- Start of Message 58166 (thread 25298) ---- From: "Ron Harper" Date: 1999-02-22 00:10:00 Subject: Re: Laminated Japanese vs Hock Blade - The results are in That explains why my new Hock iron for my #4 took so little time to tune to produce gossamer shavings. Back was dead flat Ron -----Original Message----- From: John A. Gunterman To: beckerm@a... ; oldtools@l... Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 6:48 PM Subject: Re: Laminated Japanese vs Hock Blade - The results are in >>Last but not least, a while back I was told that Hock blades were >>dark. This one was decidedly light/silvery in color. Does anyone know >>why? > > >that would mean that Ron is now stockng the pipeline with the "new" blades.... >Blanchard Ground _after_ heat treatment..... perfectly flat back's are a >result. >-- >John A. Gunterman... Horse shoeing for cash only. > > Visit the New Apprentice Neanderthal Page at: >http://people.ne.mediaone.net/spokeshave/A_N.HTM > >-- > > ++++ End of thread 25298 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25299 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58161 (thread 25299) ---- From: SSalbWW@a... Date: 1999-02-21 21:57:00 Subject: Good buy - plow plane? Folks, Today I bought three planes . . . and I'd like some feedback. I got a wooden plow plane, with a mark on it that I really can't read, but no irons, a Sargent 3411 (coffin shaped transitional) with no iron or breaker, and an Ulmia Ott missing a wedge (about 9" long) -- all for sixty bucks. How'd I do? Definately bottom-feeding, but hey, what can I do? Anyone know where I can find an iron for the Sargent? Anyone have a set of plow plane irons they might wanna sell? Thanks. Shannon Salb Washington, D.C. ++++ End of thread 25299 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25300 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58163 (thread 25300) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-02-21 23:34:00 Subject: It's a wonder any elephants were left on Earth I'm currently reading Charles Holtzapffell's "Turning and Mechanical Manipulation, Volume I", one of the most Galootish books I've read. There are five volumes altogether, each around 500 pages, and only the last two deal with turning itself. The first three are a great description of everything you could possibly want to know before you sat down at your treadle lathe. Volume I deals with materials and right now I'm reading about ivory. Here's a quote, by a Mr. McCulloch, who's talking about :one year:, 1832, in Great Britain : "... But the destruction is really much greater; and would probably amount to, at least, between 5,000 and 6,000 elephants. If, to the quantity of ivory required for Great Britain, we add that required for other countries of Europe, America, and Asia, the slaughter of this noble animal will appear immense; and it may well excite surprise, that the breed has not been more diminished." Holtzapfell goes on to say : "It is probable Mr. Mcculloch's estimate of 60 lbs., as the average weight of teeth [tusks], is far too high, and from the observation of merchants well qualified to judge, it appears that 15 or 16 lbs. would be nearer the average; if so even the above numbers would be quadrupled." Doesn't seem to have prevented Holtzapfell from using the stuff... Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 58190 (thread 25300) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-22 09:37:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder any elephants were left on Earth > Holtzapfell goes on to say : > > "It is probable Mr. Mcculloch's estimate of 60 lbs., as the average > weight of teeth [tusks], is far too high, and from the observation > of merchants well qualified to judge, it appears that 15 or 16 lbs. > would be nearer the average; if so even the above numbers would be > quadrupled." > > Doesn't seem to have prevented Holtzapfell from using the stuff... > That's Victorians for you. The common reaction amongst egg collectors, on hearing that a bird was nearing extinction, was to rush to get an example egg before the bird became extinct. This would be funny if it wasn't so ******* (1) tragic. BugBear. (1) insert expletive of your choice here. ++++ End of thread 25300 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25301 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58167 (thread 25301) ---- From: Bhermanek@a... Date: 1999-02-22 00:06:00 Subject: crane's,what's up? I didnt get to go to the cabin fever auction. Was there anything mentioned about the future of his auctions and tools sales. I'm especially interested in the ones in April and Sept. Bill Hermanek (looking for Stanley) ++++ End of thread 25301 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25302 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58169 (thread 25302) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-02-22 00:44:00 Subject: PATINA and Saw Collectors alert! Galoots, One subject has nothing to do with the other! For PATINA, I just upda ted the map to provide the exit numbers of the major interstate hiways - here in the east we call the "I" routes, but on the left coast they call them the "the" routes. Went driving in the country and found the numbers. Which took me to the next item. The SAW is for sale at Beaver Creek antiques and Galoots headed to PATI NA from the west on interstate I-70 pass within one mile of the group shop. It is Disston, approximately 3 1/2 feet long. It is skewed back and about 3 teeth per inch. It has a large grapevine handle with LARGE thumb hole and the proper, large Disston medalion. I would rate the condition at nearly G+ and cleanable to G+ easily. It is easily the largest Disston saw I've seen other than the lumbering saws that were precursors to chain saws. To find it, go to Beaver Creek antiques on MD. Rt. 40 just off I-70 at Hagerstown, MD. Go inside and turn to the right side (this is a 250 dealer shop) and look at the first booth on the right. It is up pon the wall. Oh, the price? $2200! Yep, $2200. It is definitely a saw sellers or saw makers advertising sign - that also probably works to actually cut wood. Any Galoot who is trying to get all numbers of Disston in all sizes has failed until they have this one. Sell you first born maybe? *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * *********************************************** ++++ End of thread 25302 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25303 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58176 (thread 25303) ---- From: Datoolfool@a... Date: 1999-02-22 02:27:00 Subject: Plow plane irons A long time ago I did some trading with an antique dealer. In the process I ended up with a box of plow plane irons. Some are marked "Ohio Tool Co", some are marked "???ts & French warranted cast steel" and some are stamped " MH TRASK" which looks like an owners stamp (found on some Ohio Tool irons). Some of the irons had the tops ground to remove hammer adjustment marks. The narrowest is 5/32" and the widest is 19/32". They all came in a wooden box that had the label painted out. The box has a sliding cover. I put these on the shelf and have rarely thought about them since. But since I started monitoring the galoot board, it dawned on that the most informed people were right here. I assumed I would find a plow plane or make one some day, but haven't done either. Is there a galoot out there with a good idea on what to do with these? Is there a good source of plow planes out there? Does anyone have a good design of one I could build? ---- Start of Message 58180 (thread 25303) ---- From: Jim Peden Date: 1999-02-22 03:31:00 Subject: Re: Plow plane irons Datoolfool@a... wrote: > > In the process I ended up with a box of plow plane irons. > Some are marked "Ohio Tool Co", some are marked > "???ts & French warranted cast steel" Probably Dwights and French. > I assumed I would find a plow plane or make one some > day, but haven't done either. Is there a galoot out there > with a good idea on what to do with these? Is there a > good source of plow planes out there? Yes, there is. Both from people who are on this list and on that infamous online auction site. Jim ---- Start of Message 58186 (thread 25303) ---- From: "Rodney Myrvaagnes" Date: 1999-02-22 03:57:00 Subject: Re: Plow plane irons Hang on to them. When you do comeon a plough, there is a good chance it will only have one iron. They won't fit all ploughs, unfortunately. On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:27:40 EST, Datoolfool@a... wrote: >A long time ago I did some trading with an antique dealer. > In the process I ended up with a box of plow plane irons. >Some are marked "Ohio Tool Co", some are marked >"???ts & French warranted cast steel" and some are >stamped " MH TRASK" which looks like an owners >stamp (found on some Ohio Tool irons). Some of the >irons had the tops ground to remove hammer adjustment >marks. The narrowest is 5/32" and the widest is 19/32". >They all came in a wooden box that had the label painted >out. The box has a sliding cover. > > >I put these on the shelf and have rarely thought about >them since. But since I started monitoring the galoot >board, it dawned on that the most informed people were >right here. > >I assumed I would find a plow plane or make one some >day, but haven't done either. Is there a galoot out there >with a good idea on what to do with these? Is there a >good source of plow planes out there? Does anyone >have a good design of one I could build? > >-- > > Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a Associate Editor Electronic Products 20+ years without a Car, a TV, or a website ---- Start of Message 58197 (thread 25303) ---- From: Roeder/Kraft Date: 1999-02-22 13:23:00 Subject: Re: Plow plane irons Hi all, One caution on plow plane irons. They're not standardized. The come in different lengths and shaft widths. More problematic yet is that they also come in different tapers. The first thing you need to do when assembling a set is to make sure that all have the same taper and that all are the same width where they neet to fit into the body of the plow. You can probably live with some variant lengths. Step no. 2 is to find a plow that will fit your set. All of which should tell you a bit about why a plow with a proper, matched set of irons commands a premium. When you think about it, however, they're actually good buy, given the difficulty of assembling a matching tool & iron set. Randy Roeder -- Repaint houses, not old tools. Datoolfool@a... wrote: > A long time ago I did some trading with an antique dealer. > In the process I ended up with a box of plow plane irons. > Some are marked "Ohio Tool Co", some are marked > "???ts & French warranted cast steel" and some are > stamped " MH TRASK" which looks like an owners > stamp (found on some Ohio Tool irons). Some of the > irons had the tops ground to remove hammer adjustment > marks. The narrowest is 5/32" and the widest is 19/32". > They all came in a wooden box that had the label painted > out. The box has a sliding cover. > > I put these on the shelf and have rarely thought about > them since. But since I started monitoring the galoot > board, it dawned on that the most informed people were > right here. > > I assumed I would find a plow plane or make one some > day, but haven't done either. Is there a galoot out there > with a good idea on what to do with these? Is there a > good source of plow planes out there? Does anyone > have a good design of one I could build? > > -- ++++ End of thread 25303 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25304 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58182 (thread 25304) ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 1999-02-22 03:42:00 Subject: Hammer Head Question Esteemed Galoots, I bought a hammer head at the Dollar Store For Galoots the other day and just finished rehandling it tonight. This is a 16 oz claw hammer made by Plumb. What attracted me to this one (besides the condition) was the old-fashioned head. It is bell-faced with a strongly curved claw of the sort you don't see in major home centers anymore. I know they were relatively common at one point since I see them all the time at the flea market. Why did the hammers with strongly curved claws fall from favor? It isn't as if they weren't hammering a lot of nails back when these hammers were more common. Plumb hammers and axes, etc. demand something of a premium at the local flea markets. I looked around for Plumb on the Internet and found that the company is owned by the Cooper Group along with a number of high quality manufacturers such as Lufkin and Wiss. Talk about the Borg, it looks like the Cooper Group has assimilated just about everyone but Stanley. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Will Work For Tools Excerpts From The 1942 Disston Saw Manual are featured at The Galoot's Progress: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ---- Start of Message 58195 (thread 25304) ---- From: estuary@w... (Larry Holland) Date: 1999-02-22 12:38:00 Subject: Re: Hammer Head Question Tom ponders the beginnings of Plumb... It was founded by Jonathan Yerkes in Frankford, PA, in 1856. Two years later, it bacame Yerkes & Plumb when Fayette R. Plumb bacame a partner. He purchased full control of the company in 1887. They had factories in both Philadelphia and Frankford, and purchased the Old Washoe Tool Co. especially for producing the Plumb line. The following year, 1888, the company began featuring the "Anchor" labels. It was incorporated in 1896, and expanded further in 1910 to larger facilities in St. Louis. By 1960 they were back in Philadelphia, and sold to O. Ames & Co. in 1971. Finally, in 1980, they were bought by The Cooper Group. The Group built a new factory in Monroe, NC., where they currently produce Plumb products. Some longtime labels used by Plumb... Plumb's Quaker City Blue Tuf Temper Anchor Black Beauty Regal >Plumb hammers and axes, etc. demand something of a premium at the local >flea markets. I looked around for Plumb on the Internet and found that >the company is owned by the Cooper Group along with a number of high >quality manufacturers such as Lufkin and Wiss. Talk about the Borg, it >looks like the Cooper Group has assimilated just about everyone but >Stanley. Peter McLaren probably did more for Plumb Axes than any other single individual outside the company. He was undefeated in chopping competitions, even issueing open challenges to all comers. He would use only a Plumb. Sorry I can't address the hammer head question. Larry - Larry Holland estuary@w... ---- Start of Message 58256 (thread 25304) ---- From: Chuck Hess Date: 1999-02-23 05:49:00 Subject: Re: Hammer Head Question Chuck Hess wrote: > Aloha Galoots, > It seems almost all of the comtemporary carpenters that I have known and > worked with all prefer the straight claw hammer. The old timers that I > first worked with almost all had curved claw hammers. Mayby it's a > generation thing? My favorite hammer to work with is a 16oz straight claw > with leather handle because among other things that is what I have used for > a long time. Straight claws are nice for pulling and prying up against a > wall or cabinet where a curved claw will not let you get it started. > My 2 cents, > Chuck > > TomPrice@a... wrote: > > > Esteemed Galoots, > > > > I bought a hammer head at the Dollar Store For Galoots the other day and > > just finished rehandling it tonight. This is a 16 oz claw hammer made by > > Plumb. What attracted me to this one (besides the condition) was the > > old-fashioned head. It is bell-faced with a strongly curved claw of the > > sort you don't see in major home centers anymore. I know they were > > relatively common at one point since I see them all the time at the flea > > market. Why did the hammers with strongly curved claws fall from favor? > > It isn't as if they weren't hammering a lot of nails back when these > > hammers were more common. > > > > Plumb hammers and axes, etc. demand something of a premium at the local > > flea markets. I looked around for Plumb on the Internet and found that > > the company is owned by the Cooper Group along with a number of high > > quality manufacturers such as Lufkin and Wiss. Talk about the Borg, it > > looks like the Cooper Group has assimilated just about everyone but > > Stanley. > > **************************** > > Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) > > Will Work For Tools > > Excerpts From The 1942 Disston Saw Manual are featured at The Galoot's > > Progress: > > http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html > > > > -- > > -- > Chuck Hess - Hess Custom Woodwork > 446 Polulani Drive Wailuku, Maui, Hawaii 96793 > shop (808)877-5682 Fax (808)242-2707 > hessco@m... ---- Start of Message 58603 (thread 25304) ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1999-02-27 22:52:00 Subject: Re: Hammer Head Question ** Reply to note from Chuck Hess Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:49:58 -0800 Chuck Hess wrote: > > > Aloha Galoots, > > It seems almost all of the comtemporary carpenters that I have known an d > > worked with all prefer the straight claw hammer. The old timers that I > > first worked with almost all had curved claw hammers. Mayby it's a > > generation thing? My favorite hammer to work with is a 16oz straight claw I don't know what you consider old timers. When I was a kid the only hammers I knew of had curved claws. Then I worked as a laborer in '49 and '50 (back far enough for you?). The carpenters all had straight claw hammers and I ended up with a 20 oz. straight claw wooden handled hammer. Loved it. I occasionally pick up a curved claw hammer and put it right back down. I don't like the look or the feel. OBTW did you know that a straight claw hammer allows you to pick up a 2x4 by whacking it with the claw and just picking it up? ernie fisch ---- Start of Message 58616 (thread 25304) ---- From: Chuck Hess Date: 1999-02-28 03:47:00 Subject: Re: Hammer Head Question Aloha galloots, A straight claw is good for a lot of things that a curved claw won't do. For example using it stop stop your slide down a roof much like the way a mountain climber uses an ice ax in a slide. Can't do that well with a curved claw. I have known framing carpenters that actually sharpen the claws to use for rough notching, opening bottles, picking up walls and lumber ( as ernie pointed out ), the list goes on and on. For framing and trim work I feel that the straight claw is superior in design because the mass of the claws is directly behind the striking surface of the head. More arrow dynamic too. Can't have those curved claws slowing down your swing. Why is power important in trim work you say? Well because driving a finish nail with more finese and a smaller hammer is much harder than driving a spike with a full swing and a huge hammer, IMHO, having done a lot of both myself. Old tool content: Does anyone know when the straight claw hammer was first on the scene? Chuck Ernie Fisch wrote: > I don't know what you consider old timers. When I was a kid the only hammers I > knew of had curved claws. Then I worked as a laborer in '49 and '50 (back fa r > enough for you?). The carpenters all had straight claw hammers and I ended u p > with a 20 oz. straight claw wooden handled hammer. Loved it. > > I occasionally pick up a curved claw hammer and put it right back down. I > don't like the look or the feel. OBTW did you know that a straight claw hammer > allows you to pick up a 2x4 by whacking it with the claw and just picking it > up? > > ernie fisch > > -- ---- Start of Message 58620 (thread 25304) ---- From: "Thomas R. Bruce" Date: 1999-02-28 12:26:00 Subject: Re: Hammer Head Question > Old tool content: > Does anyone know when the straight claw hammer was first on the scene? This would seem to me to be a question of parallel evolution rather than strict succession. Some kinds of hammers have always had dead-straight "claws" (though obviously some weren't actually clawed), like watchmaker's hammers and paving hammers and Warrington-pattern cabinetmaker's hammers. I have seen strap-handled hammers of great age with very minimal curvature to the claw, though not quite as straight as a modern rip hammer, and of course upholsterer's hammers and saddler's hammers have always had straight claws. So a better question might be "when were all these happy features combined into the 20-oz-or-thereabouts-hammer-with-a-straight-claw"? Again this probably depends somewhat on what you're willing to accept as "straight", and what you would consider a true market introduction. Baird shows pictures of a few hand-wrought hammers with straight claws, probably but not necessarily pre-Maydole because they don't have adze eyes. OTOH, Stanley's first introduction of a rip claw seems to have been in 1911, with some sort of claw patent (can't be sure what) issued in 1914. Me, I favor giving credit to Gronk, the first caveman who discovered that you could pick up an antelope carcase with a straight chunk of flint lashed to the end of a stick. Best, Tb. +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ Thomas R. Bruce Legal Information Institute, Cornell University trb2@c... +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ ---- Start of Message 58631 (thread 25304) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-02-28 16:06:00 Subject: Re: Hammer Head Question To the question: >> Does anyone know when the straight claw hammer was first on the scene? > Tom Bruce suggested: >This would seem to me to be a question of parallel evolution rather than >strict succession. Right. But then, there must be some explanation for why curved claws proliferated, without necessarily dominating, during a period not too remote in time. On my (ugh) pegboard I find an old looking no-name hammer with claws even straighter than modern Estwing and Stanley. Then there are a couple of medium-old TrueTempers with claws with a fair curve. But digging deeper, I find a hammer with FOREST CITY, FORGED STEEL stamped in two lines across the side of the head (ie, parallel with the handle). Its claws curve so that the top edges are nearly parallel with the handle, nearly a quarter turn from the head. How about the possibility that there was some advantage to curved claws? If, as some might argue, the old timers knew best, then there must be a logic to the rise and decline of curved clawed hammers. If so, surely it had to do with nail pulling, which besides lifting lumber and/or antelope carcasses is the function of claws. Curved claws provide leverage, or angle of pull, not possible with straight claws without a block under the head of the hammer. I'm thinking that there was a time when little bits of steel used to connect pieces of wood were a lot more precious than they later became, and there was a lot more recycling of nails. If so, then possibly the advantage of being able to pull nails with the same tool used to pound them in, without having to grab a scrap block for leverage, might help account for the spread of the curved claw design, for a time. Just a thought, but others might have evidence for or against it, either from experience or the historical record. Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 58635 (thread 25304) ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 1999-02-28 17:58:00 Subject: Re: Hammer Head Question Tom Holloway wrote: > I'm thinking that there was a time >when little bits of steel used to connect pieces of wood were a lot more >precious than they later became, and there was a lot more recycling of >nails. If so, then possibly the advantage of being able to pull nails with >the same tool used to pound them in, without having to grab a scrap block >for leverage, might help account for the spread of the curved claw design, >for a time. > Just a thought, but others might have evidence for or against it, >either from experience or the historical record. Tom's post prompted me to look up some more stuff on hammers from my scanty reference collection. 'The Home Mechanics Handbook' (published in 1945) states that the curved claw hammer was more common than the straight claw but does not state why. In 'Tools and How to Use Them', (Albert Jackson and David Way, 1978) the authors state that the curved claw hammer is generally the most widely used while the straight claw hammer is effective for levering boards together by jamming the claw between the boards and levering with the handle. They state that the staight claw hammer is also known as the 'ripping' or 'framing' hammer. Aldren Watson in 'Hand Tools: Their Ways and Workings' states that the curved claw hammer is a more general purpose tool since it can be used in tasks such as building forms and scaffolds where one is pulling nails as much as driving them. He illustrates quite well that the full curved claw hammer has more effective leverage for pulling nails than the ripping hammer. He also illustrates that, of the two types, the straight claw hammer is the one to use for wrecking work or prying boards. I should have looked here first considering that I started this thread. Did the framing hammer rise in importance as the quality of lumber declined such that a hammer that could also be used to lever warped boards became more valuable? Now I wonder how many do-it-yourselfers are going to these major home centers and buying the straight claw hammers for use around the house when they might be better off with a curved claw type. Actually, both seem like a good idea. Well, goody, I'll just add one more tool to my want list. Heh, heh. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Will Work For Tools Survival Tips For Beginner Galoots are at The Galoot's Progress: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ---- Start of Message 58644 (thread 25304) ---- From: Howard Slack Date: 1999-02-28 20:39:00 Subject: Re: Hammer Head Question Tom Holloway wrote: > How about the possibility that there was some advantage to curved > claws? If, as some might argue, the old timers knew best, then there must > be a logic to the rise and decline of curved clawed hammers. If so, surely > it had to do with nail pulling, which besides lifting lumber and/or > antelope carcasses is the function of claws. Curved claws provide > leverage, or angle of pull, not possible with straight claws without a > block under the head of the hammer. I'm thinking that there was a time > when little bits of steel used to connect pieces of wood were a lot more > precious than they later became, and there was a lot more recycling of > nails. I agree that nails come out easier with curved-claws, and so you sometimes need a helper block. But on the other hand, isn't it true that a nail pulled with a straight-claw hammer comes out straighter than one pulled with a curved-claw hammer? It seems to me that this is true, although you all may not agree. The less bent the used nail is, the easier it would be to straighten it before reusing it. I prefer straight-slaw hammers, although I am not sure I can say why. It just seems that they are 'right'. I have both kinds. ---- Start of Message 58647 (thread 25304) ---- From: Paul Aud Date: 1999-02-28 21:47:00 Subject: Re: Hammer Head Question > >I agree that nails come out easier with curved-claws, and so you >sometimes need a helper block. But on the other hand, isn't it true that >a nail pulled with a straight-claw hammer comes out straighter than one >pulled with a curved-claw hammer? It seems to me that this is true, >although you all may not agree. The less bent the used nail is, the >easier it would be to straighten it before reusing it. I've already responded to this thread, but I think I might be able to clarify a little of what I've said earlier. Curved claws do seem to get in my way. I do agree with the statement that curves give better leverage for pulling, though. I lot of times, The handle will hit the wall before I've got the claws where I want them to pull a nail. I seem to be able to pull a nail out straighter with a straight claw than a curved claw. I don't mind having to get a piece of scrap wood...I've never had to search for one, their always around. The straight claw does more of other things like prying and holding materials. Also, with a straight claw in my tool belt, I have a wider length of metal to grab onto to pull the hammer out with driving my hand into hammer claws. Although it has nothing to do the way it works, I like the straight claw's looks better, the curved claws seem to be deformed somehow. I'm not trying to put down anybody's choice of hammer, just listing the reasons for my choice. later, Oddball ---- Start of Message 58661 (thread 25304) ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1999-03-01 01:20:00 Subject: Re: Hammer Head Question ** Reply to note from Paul Aud Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:47:49 -0500 > > Although it has nothing to do the way it works, I like the straight claw's > looks better, the curved claws seem to be deformed somehow. I'm not trying There is one, count 'em, one curved claw hammer at my house. It is my wife's itty-bitty toy. Being a real petite she has trouble swinging a real hammer. The rest are straight claws. When I was introduced to the straight claw on the job it took all of 15 seconds for me to fall in love with it. I tend to pound nails or pull nails but not both. Not of course counting the Asian nails which will bend no matter how straight you hit them. When I am pulling nails I use a nail puller or bar to pull them. I have several bars for pulling nails. If I were to break one (very unlikely) it would hurt a lot less than breaking a hammer. I have also been in situations where the nail must be teased out of the wood, either because of clearance problems or for some other strange reason. Here the straight claw is undisputed master. I pry sideways for a bit, reposition the claw and pry the other way. I have walked an awful lot of nails out of wood this way. ernie fisch ---- Start of Message 58674 (thread 25304) ---- From: Newbold Date: 1999-03-01 03:06:00 Subject: Re: Hammer Head Question At 09:50 PM 2/28/99, Tom H. and Tom B. asked about hammer head evolution: > How about the possibility that there was some advantage to curved >claws? If, as some might argue, the old timers knew best, then there must >be a logic to the rise and decline of curved clawed hammers. If so, surely >it had to do with nail pulling, which besides lifting lumber and/or >antelope carcasses is the function of claws. Curved claws provide >leverage, or angle of pull, not possible with straight claws without a >block under the head of the hammer. I think Tom B is on the right track here. Pulling a nail with a curved claw is much less likely to damage the wood than a straight claw hammer since the head rolls smoothly on the curved claws as the nail is withdrawn. With a straight claw hammer, it pivots on the tip of the hammer head, denting the wood in the process. In the days before nail guns, curved claws were favored by finish carpenters to avoid denting trim work. Straight claws were favored by framers, where dinging the wood a bit will never show. Neither carpenter would take the time to search for a scrap if it was not necessary. Nowadays, nail guns do most of the work and nail/board pulling is done with a flat bar since nail guns drive the nail below the surface, so no hammer claw can reach it anyway. Curved claws no longer have any advantage, as the hammer is typically only used to pry the boards apart or knock them into position. Hence a straight claw is favored and bigger is better for more speed . >I'm thinking that there was a time >when little bits of steel used to connect pieces of wood were a lot more >precious than they later became, and there was a lot more recycling of >nails. If so, then possibly the advantage of being able to pull nails with >the same tool used to pound them in, without having to grab a scrap block >for leverage, might help account for the spread of the curved claw design, >for a time. When nails were really precious, the carpenters used pincer pliers (or fires) to pull/recover nails. When my Dad was building houses right after WW II (before nail guns), he would stop his workers from straightening any nails. Nails were and still are much cheaper than finger repairs or lost pay/work from injuries and in the time it took to straighten a nail, a decent carpenter would have driven a new nail and would already be working on the next nail. Of course, some people have to try to "save" any bent nail, even if it will most likely bend even worse when they try to drive it again. His favorite hammer was a curved claw (wooden handle) 16 oz Stanley. His specialty was finish work. I can't recall him ever using or owning a straight claw hammer, even for framing. The old timers had their favorite tools and stuck with them. I use curved claw hammers because that is what my father taught me to use. My first saw was an old Disston D-12; my first hammer was a new Dunlop 12 oz. I'm still using both 44 years later. :-) Charlie Newbold - confirmed member of the curved claw society. ++++ End of thread 25304 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25305 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58183 (thread 25305) ---- From: Tim Rutherford Date: 1999-02-22 04:35:00 Subject: Ten Tools that made our world.... I just finished reading an online exhibit of ""Ten Tools That Made Our World" at the Museum of Woodworking Tools (http://www.antiquetools.com/10-tools/10-Tools/introduction.html). And while some the ten objects are arguably sure fits for this line upo, I couldn't help but notice the absence of cutting tools -- saws specifically. Planes, hammers, braces, measuring devices -- all necesssary, but incomplete without some kind of cutting tool to create dovetails, tenons. Any body else taken a look at this and have two cents worth? Tim Rutherford Pondering in Savannah _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 58185 (thread 25305) ---- From: Joe and Rhonda DiPietro Date: 1999-02-22 05:31:00 Subject: Re: Ten Tools that made our world.... Tim: My two cents...? Something's amiss. As with all museums, they make a choice albeit, not necessarily correct ones. Just because its a museum, doesn't necessarily mean their research is accurate. Consider the discovery in the Norfolk Naval Shipyard (NNSY) in Portsmouth, Va where a number of Dahlgren guns were uncovered from a bricked-in underground magazine, were put on display OUTSIDE. These gun had not been fired except for testing, and had been stored their (apparently) since the Civil War. Go figure...I concur with your noted comments...I wonder how accurate mitres were cut by shipwrights without 'saws'? Duh?! Joe D. Tim Rutherford wrote: > I just finished reading an online exhibit of ""Ten Tools That Made Our > World" at the Museum of Woodworking Tools > (http://www.antiquetools.com/10-tools/10-Tools/introduction.html). > > And while some the ten objects are arguably sure fits for this line > upo, I couldn't help but notice the absence of cutting tools -- saws > specifically. > > Planes, hammers, braces, measuring devices -- all necesssary, but > incomplete without some kind of cutting tool to create dovetails, > tenons. Any body else taken a look at this and have two cents worth? > > Tim Rutherford > Pondering in Savannah > ---- Start of Message 58238 (thread 25305) ---- From: "cylkowski & broman" Date: 1999-02-23 02:58:00 Subject: Re: Ten Tools that made our world.... >...... ""Ten Tools That Made Our > World" at the Museum of Woodworking Tools > (http://www.antiquetools.com/10-tools/10-Tools/introduction.html). > Any body else taken a look at this and have two cents worth? An enjoyable page..... but I hope they don't mean that those were to top ten tools that changed the world. Nah, they can't mean that. Can they? I guess that begs the question: what do all you galoots consider to be the top ten tools that really did change the world? I'm thinking wooddorking here, but you could make it much broader. For example - the exhibit mentions the brace. I'd have to put the bit way ahead of the brace. The brace is a nice way to turn the bit, but you can turn a bit without a brace....and the guy who came up with a way to cut round holes must have been close to a genius for his time. I'd call the workbench a pretty important tool, as well. Dave Broman ---- Start of Message 58249 (thread 25305) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-02-23 05:02:00 Subject: Re: Ten Tools that made our world.... At 9:58 PM -0500 2/22/99, cylkowski & broman wrote: >what do all you galoots consider to be the >top ten tools that really did change the world? For working wood, not necessarily in ranked order, and including variations of type within each category (ie, families of tools), here's a stab: adze saw chisel axe hammer/mallet plane/scraper auger (and some way to turn it) level/plumb rule/straitedge gauge/dividers square Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 58251 (thread 25305) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-02-23 07:43:00 Subject: Re: Ten Tools that made our world.... I must say that for woodworking, and for general home maintenance, I find my check book to be the most useful tool. I have no idea how people managed without this indespensible device in ancient times. Adam ++++ End of thread 25305 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25306 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58184 (thread 25306) ---- From: Norman Witt Date: 1999-02-22 05:03:00 Subject: Source for linen thread The annual bowsaw thread usually mentions two points about the windings used to tension the saw: (1) linen thread is best, and (2) linen thread is no longer available, because leatherworkers now use waxed nylon instead of the more traditional waxed linen. This weekend I stumbled across a source that not only stocks linen thread in every thickness you can imagine, but does mail order as well: Robin and Russ Handweavers, Inc. 533 North Adams Street McMinnville, Oregon 97128 (503) 472-5760 1-800-932-8391 This place mainly caters to weavers, spinners, and other serious fiberheads, which means that their spools tend to come in one pound sizes and run around $15 to $20 for linen suitable for use with bowsaws. Some thread labelled "10/2 wet spun linen" is about the same weight as what you would use to stitch leather, and is unwaxed. They also had 1 lb spools of "barbour", which is about 1/16" thick, already waxed, and resembles the cord used commonly for mailed packages about 20 years ago; this stuff looks like it would be pretty good for bowsaws as well. I am not affiliated, etc. My girlfriend occasionally shops there, and I now have a multiple-lifetime supply of bowsaw thread. Hope this helps, Norm W. ---- Start of Message 58192 (thread 25306) ---- From: b2d@e... (Duke of URLs) Date: 1999-02-22 18:44:00 Subject: Re: Source for linen thread Is the linen thread used for cue sticks suitable? The following link sells Irish linen in small quantities. http://www.cuestik.com/ Keith Bohn ++++ End of thread 25306 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25307 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58188 (thread 25307) ---- From: "Tim Swihart" Date: 1999-02-22 08:48:00 Subject: loose M&T in bow saws - ref found in publication OK, those of you that thought I was looney for suggesting a bow saw's M&T joint should be loose (only along the axis of the saw's arms) should take a look at page 48 of "Mastering Hand Tool Techniques" (by Alan and Gill Bridgewater, ISBN 1-55870-457-4, Betterway Books). that page has a picture of a bow saw with the major parts labeled. One of those labels, the one that points to the M&T joint at each end of the stretcher, says: "Loose-fit mortise and tenon joint" Also, those of you suggesting that tensioning happens when the stretcher bends might want to read the Dec '97 issue of American Woodworker. :-) There's an article on making and using a bow saw that starts on page 57. It was written by Yeung Chan (a reasonably well known woodworker). The second to last paragraph on the first page of the article states: "To prevent the stretcher from bending under tension..." And, as long as I'm wrapping up loose ends on this overly long thread, I might as well toss in one more "finding": Tage Frid, in his "Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking", volume1, page 17, while discussing stringing and tensioning a bow saw, says: "I use common chalk line." Maybe this was before he told FWW that he uses natural gut tennis racket string. My point is that there are several viable types of string for tensioning...use what you can get easily/cheaply. Here's the list of what I've heard of: - waxed whipping cord (1/16-18" thickness...available at marine supply stores) - bow string (local stores I checked had a max 6' length on hand, so this could be a problem on larger saws unless you find a better source) - common chalk line (preferably unchalked, but do what you want) :-) - natural gut for stringing a tennis racket - waxed linen thread (1/16-1/8" thickness...formerly thought hard to find until Norm W. came up with this source: Robin and Russ Handweavers, Inc. 533 North Adams Street McMinnville, Oregon 97128 (503) 472-5760 1-800-932-8391 Now, if my bow saw would finally finish fuming (driveby gloat of a finish technique I'd never tried before), I could experiment a bit with other tensioning materials. :-) For me, waxed whipping cord, 1/16" thick, works just fine under full tension while cutting out a sack back chair seat (my only "real" use so far of my new saw). Tim S. (fuming produces amazing color changes...well worth the time hit for letting your project sit and sit and sit and sit in the fumes...I'm just past 24 hrs and it's still darkening though it's gained quite a bit of color already...maybe it'd go faster if I'd quit removing the lid to check on its progress...:-). ++++ End of thread 25307 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25308 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58191 (thread 25308) ---- From: b2d@e... (Duke of URLs) Date: 1999-02-22 18:37:00 Subject: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in All the recent postings about indiscriminate use of our most precious natural resources left me wanting to bash my brain in. I resurrected the following from a post to another list in an effort to try and calm myself and maybe help others who feel my pain. **************************************************************************** Here in the U.S. we are quite lucky to have a large variety of species to choose from. In fact we have 865 native woods and another 200 naturalized species. You might want to check the Wood Mizer Web site for their "Trees to Furniture" program where they will link you up with a band mill owner in your area. These guys cut up downed trees and culls that normally would become fire wood or chipped for mulch. Be the first on your block to have made something from all 1065 woods! http://www.woodmizer.com/tree2fur.htm One last thing to keep in mind, we weekend wood warriors only account for a small bit of the wood consumption in the world and in fact only 20% of the lumber cut goes to furniture making and that includes commercial plants. Note I said lumber cut and not trees. I wish I could find my data on what percentage of all trees cut going to pulp for paper making. That's the real culprit. Want to help the woods? Start an enforceable recycling program. As always, your mileage may vary. Keith Bohn ---- Start of Message 58242 (thread 25308) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-02-23 04:00:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in Duke of URLs wrote: > > One last thing to keep in mind, we weekend wood warriors only account > for a small bit of the wood consumption in the world and in fact only > 20% of the lumber cut goes to furniture making and that includes > commercial plants. Note I said lumber cut and not trees. I wish I > could find my data on what percentage of all trees cut going to pulp > for paper making. That's the real culprit. Want to help the woods? > Start an enforceable recycling program. Most of the pulp stuff comes from tree farms though. Do you really care if they grow tomatoes or pine? Of course, this is where I become amused at the lumber industry, "We plant two trees for every one we cut". So you plant two fast growing, soon to be pulp, pine trees to replace that old oak. Bah. So, is maple from sugar maples? Or would I be depleting maple by building with it? How about cherry? I know walnuts are grown for the walnuts, so those should be in supply, as should pecan, although I never see pecan lumber. Roger Books ---- Start of Message 58247 (thread 25308) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-02-23 04:45:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in On Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:00:04 -0500 Roger Books writes: >Duke of URLs wrote: >> >So, is maple from sugar maples? Yes > Or would I be depleting maple >by building with it? There are plentyof places where the sugar maples are worth more for syrup production than they are for wood. If property taxes go up enough, that won't be true. > How about cherry? I know walnuts are >grown for the walnuts, so those should be in supply, as should >pecan, although I never see pecan lumber. > >From what I've read over on rec.nahrm: Pecan and Hickory are so much alike as to be visually and mechanically indistinguishible. Consequently one may be sold as the other, the American Hardwood Association allows either name to be applied to the wood regardless of the tree from which it came. I have seen pecan advertised. ---- Start of Message 58268 (thread 25308) ---- From: "Gary P. Johns" Date: 1999-02-23 14:55:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Douglas S Caprette wrote: [snip] > >From what I've read over on rec.nahrm: > Pecan and Hickory are so much alike as to be visually and mechanically > indistinguishible. Consequently one may be sold as the other, the > American > Hardwood Association allows either name to be applied to the wood > regardless > of the tree from which it came. I have seen pecan advertised. Down here in Soonerland (Grapes of Wrath, Jeff) we gots both your hickory and your pecan. I don't know that much about the Amer. Hardwood Association but even *I* can tell the difference between the two. There is a distinct difference in the grain structure. Hickory here in Oklahoma is usually tight grained and more the natural color of Ash. Pecan on the other hand is very tight grained and has a natural color more like Butternut. .02 worth ps. Did I mention I have a good friend with a 20 acre pecan orchard? With lots of old trees (3-4 ft diameter). Gary Johns OldTool Heaven "RustHunter" http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9147 ---- Start of Message 58275 (thread 25308) ---- From: Joe Young Date: 1999-02-23 15:37:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in One othe clue may be the smell when cut. Pecan has a very distinctive odor. Joe Young Gary P. Johns wrote: > On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Douglas S Caprette wrote: > > [snip] > > > >From what I've read over on rec.nahrm: > > Pecan and Hickory are so much alike as to be visually and mechanically > > indistinguishible. Consequently one may be sold as the other, the > > American > > Hardwood Association allows either name to be applied to the wood > > regardless > > of the tree from which it came. I have seen pecan advertised. > > Down here in Soonerland (Grapes of Wrath, Jeff) we gots both your hickory > and your pecan. I don't know that much about the Amer. Hardwood > Association but even *I* can tell the difference between the two. > > There is a distinct difference in the grain structure. Hickory here in > Oklahoma is usually tight grained and more the natural color of Ash. Pecan > on the other hand is very tight grained and has a natural color more like > Butternut. > > .02 worth > > ps. Did I mention I have a good friend with a 20 acre pecan orchard? With > lots of old trees (3-4 ft diameter). > > Gary Johns OldTool Heaven > "RustHunter" http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9147 > > -- ---- Start of Message 58289 (thread 25308) ---- From: "Flowers, Curt" Date: 1999-02-23 19:40:00 Subject: RE: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in -------------------------- > So, is maple from sugar maples? Or would I be depleting maple > by building with it? How about cherry? I know walnuts are > grown for the walnuts, so those should be in supply, as should > pecan, although I never see pecan lumber. > > Roger Books ------------------------------- [Curt->] Lots of different species in the tree "families", like maple and walnut. For example: Sugar maple is a soft maple. Best for fine woodwork is hard maple. The English walnut provides the nut we eat and does not have the fine wood of a Black walnut, which has poor nuts for eating. Also the same for cherry. We work Black cherry which doesn't produce edible cherries. The ones we eat come from a much smaller cherry "tree". So I suppose you wouldn't be depleting the edible walnut supply by building with the other walnut. ---- Start of Message 58297 (thread 25308) ---- From: Aaron R Ionta Date: 1999-02-23 20:08:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in sugar maple IS hard maple isn't it ??? other types of maple are soft , Silver, Red etc am I crazy? possibly Aaron taak "Flowers, Curt" wrote: > -------------------------- > > So, is maple from sugar maples? Or would I be depleting maple > > by building with it? How about cherry? I know walnuts are > > grown for the walnuts, so those should be in supply, as should > > pecan, although I never see pecan lumber. > > > > Roger Books > ------------------------------- > [Curt->] Lots of different species in the tree "families", like maple and > walnut. > For example: Sugar maple is a soft maple. Best for fine woodwork is hard > maple. > The English walnut provides the nut we eat and does not have the fine wood > of a Black walnut, which has poor nuts for eating. > Also the same for cherry. We work Black cherry which doesn't produce edible > cherries. The ones we eat come from a much smaller cherry "tree". > > So I suppose you wouldn't be depleting the edible walnut supply by building > with the other walnut. > > -- ---- Start of Message 58299 (thread 25308) ---- From: Ed_Balko@E... Date: 1999-02-23 21:08:00 Subject: RE: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in Curt wrote "For example: Sugar maple is a soft maple. Best for fine woodwork is hard maple" I don't think this is correct. "Sugar maple" is the "hard maple" (acer saccharum). Some soft maples such as red maple (acer rubrum) are also sugared but this is not so common and the sugar yield is evidently considerably less. Nice sources of this sort of minutae at: http://www.oplin.lib.oh.us/external_page.cfm?external_link=%2Fproducts%2Ftree%2 F and http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/m/maples14.html OT content: Hard maple handle on my Stanley 945N Ed Balko Middletown, NJ Living in a sea of soft maples (red and norway maples mostly) ---- Start of Message 58309 (thread 25308) ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1999-02-23 22:34:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in Aaron R Ionta wrote: > > sugar maple IS hard maple isn't it ??? Acer sacarinium, I think. I always thought it to be a hard maple. What's Hoadley say? > "Flowers, Curt" wrote: > > > For example: Sugar maple is a soft maple. Best for fine woodwork is hard > > maple. Ed ---- Start of Message 58320 (thread 25308) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-02-24 00:28:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in You're not crazy, you're right, sugar maple is hard maple. We went all through this earlier this year when I had access to what I was told was a sugar maple, I was also told it was soft maple. They were half right it was soft maple but it wasn't sugar maple. Many galoots set me straight on this, sugar maple is hard, manitoba maple, which is what I have, is soft maple. Dan Aaron R Ionta wrote: > sugar maple IS hard maple isn't it ??? > > other types of maple are soft , Silver, Red etc > > am I crazy? possibly > Aaron taak > > "Flowers, Curt" wrote: > > > -------------------------- > > > So, is maple from sugar maples? Or would I be depleting maple > > > by building with it? How about cherry? I know walnuts are > > > grown for the walnuts, so those should be in supply, as should > > > pecan, although I never see pecan lumber. > > > > > > Roger Books > > ------------------------------- > > [Curt->] Lots of different species in the tree "families", like maple and > > walnut. > > For example: Sugar maple is a soft maple. Best for fine woodwork is hard > > maple. > > The English walnut provides the nut we eat and does not have the fine wood > > of a Black walnut, which has poor nuts for eating. > > Also the same for cherry. We work Black cherry which doesn't produce edible > > cherries. The ones we eat come from a much smaller cherry "tree". > > > > So I suppose you wouldn't be depleting the edible walnut supply by building > > with the other walnut. > > > > -- > > -- ---- Start of Message 58322 (thread 25308) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-02-24 00:34:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in On Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:40:12 -0600 "Flowers, Curt" writes: >- >[Curt->] Lots of different species in the tree "families", like maple >and walnut. For example: Sugar maple is a soft maple. Best for fine woodwork is >hard maple. Sugar maple and black maple (Acer sacharum and Acer nigrim) are the hard maples. All the rest are soft maples though red maple has impressive compressive strength. Trust me, I grew up in woods that were predominantely sugar maple. If a family can't make enough money form the land to pay the taxes on it it'll become a housing developement. >The English walnut provides the nut we eat and does not have the fine >wood of a Black walnut, which has poor nuts for eating. That, is quite literally a matter of taste. >Also the same for cherry. We work Black cherry which doesn't produce >edible cherries. The ones we eat come from a much smaller cherry "tree". > True enough, but black cherries, chokecherries and other inedible cherries can be used for wine (haven't tried that myself, yet.) ---- Start of Message 58323 (thread 25308) ---- From: Bill Neely Date: 1999-02-23 17:01:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in I thought that Black walnuts were too hard to crack to be commercially valuable! BTW English walnut trees are grown on Black walnut rootstock. Bill Neely (who loves BW meats, but would starve to death trying to open them) Douglas S Caprette wrote: > >The English walnut provides the nut we eat and does not have the fine > >wood of a Black walnut, which has poor nuts for eating. > > That, is quite literally a matter of taste. ---- Start of Message 58326 (thread 25308) ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 1999-02-24 01:10:00 Subject: RE: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in Curt wrote: >For example: Sugar maple is a soft maple. Best for fine woodwork is hard >maple. Did you maybe mean to say 'silver' instead of 'sugar' maple? Sugar maple (Acer saccharum) is hard maple. In 'A Natural History of Trees of Eastern and Central North America' Donald Culross Peattie said of sugar maple "It is immensely strong and durable, especially the whitish sapwood called by the lumberman Hard Maple..." He also states that lumbermen did not distinguish between black and sugar maple. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Brakes For Rust The Flea Market Tactical Primer is on The Galoot's Progress: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ---- Start of Message 58336 (thread 25308) ---- From: "cylkowski & broman" Date: 1999-02-24 03:48:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in > That, is quite literally a matter of taste. > True enough, but black cherries, chokecherries and other inedible > cherries > can be used for wine (haven't tried that myself, yet.) Ya might do some checking before you try a chokecherry wine.... If I recall my dendrology, the "choke" in chokecherry is a result of a little arsenic. One definitive way to identify the tree is to chew on a twig. That nasy taste from the arsenic differentiates it from other cherries. And the chokecherries I've seen were pretty small for making stuff from the wood. Ditto for pin cherry and the fruit cherries. Methinks black cherry is the only one big enough to get boards. Dave Broman ---- Start of Message 58342 (thread 25308) ---- From: Kenneth Stagg Date: 1999-02-24 05:14:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in cylkowski & broman wrote: > Ya might do some checking before you try a chokecherry wine.... If I recall > my dendrology, the "choke" in chokecherry is a result of a little arsenic. Oh dear!! I hope not. The last time I was back home (Montana) you could still buy chokecherry syrups and jellies - they're my alltime favorites. I was led t o believe that the "choke" was due to something like active ingredient in dieffenbachia (is it oxalic acid?) and it was destroyed by heating. It could easily be, though, that there is arsenic in the pits, much like its relatives apples and apricots. I can attest to just how much "pucker" even ripe chokecherries have! > .............................................................. And the > chokecherries I've seen were pretty small for making stuff from the wood. I've never seen it as much more than a shrub. Probably nothing big enough even for turning. -Ken ---- Start of Message 58345 (thread 25308) ---- From: Howard Slack Date: 1999-02-24 05:45:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in Flowers, Curt wrote: > The English walnut provides the nut we eat and does not have the fine > wood of a Black walnut, which has poor nuts for eating. That is a matter of opinion. Anyone who has tried will know that black walnuts are very much harder to crack than European, but they are definitely not poor eating. They have a much stronger flavor, but even make good pie (made just like pecan pie). I am not trying to be argumentative, but if you can get the nuts out, they are really good. Black cherries are not eaten as such, but you can make jelly from them. Howard Slack ---- Start of Message 58356 (thread 25308) ---- From: georgew@m... Date: 1999-02-24 13:43:00 Subject: RE: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in Actually, Black Walnut nuts are far superior in taste to the bland English Walnuts as anyone who was raised in the Midwest will attest. Of course, you have to get by the stain from the husk, the hard shell and the difficulty in picking them to sample this delight. As to Black Cherry, some species of this are really quite tasty. Try Black Hearts for instance. We had several trees of this variety on the farm where I grew up. If you were successful in beating the birds, you were in for some great eating. Some of those trees are now in some of my earlier pieces. George -------------------------- > So, is maple from sugar maples? Or would I be depleting maple > by building with it? How about cherry? I know walnuts are > grown for the walnuts, so those should be in supply, as should > pecan, although I never see pecan lumber. > > Roger Books ------------------------------- [Curt->] Lots of different species in the tree "families", like maple and walnut. For example: Sugar maple is a soft maple. Best for fine woodwork is hard maple. The English walnut provides the nut we eat and does not have the fine wood of a Black walnut, which has poor nuts for eating. Also the same for cherry. We work Black cherry which doesn't produce edible cherries. The ones we eat come from a much smaller cherry "tree". So I suppose you wouldn't be depleting the edible walnut supply by building with the other walnut. ---- Start of Message 58378 (thread 25308) ---- From: "Flowers, Curt" Date: 1999-02-24 18:18:00 Subject: RE: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in > Yes. I boobed on this one. > Sugar Maple is hard maple. (I was thinking silver.) > Also, I was a bit wrong on Black Walnut. Black Walnut nuts are edible, > they're just too hard to shell to be a commercial crop. > > (There's so much knowledge in this group one can't be wrong for long! > Thanks for the corrections. You can stop now. ) > > Anyway, my point was: different trees for different uses. Woodworking does > not often directly compete with food crops for trees. > > -Curt from Illinois > -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron R Ionta [SMTP:aaron.ionta@i...] > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 2:09 PM > To: oldtools@l... > Subject: Re: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in > > sugar maple IS hard maple isn't it ??? > > other types of maple are soft , Silver, Red etc > > am I crazy? possibly > Aaron taak > > "Flowers, Curt" wrote: > > > -------------------------- > > > So, is maple from sugar maples? Or would I be depleting maple > > > by building with it? How about cherry? I know walnuts are > > > grown for the walnuts, so those should be in supply, as should > > > pecan, although I never see pecan lumber. > > > > > > Roger Books > > ------------------------------- > > [Curt->] Lots of different species in the tree "families", like maple > and > > walnut. > > For example: Sugar maple is a soft maple. Best for fine woodwork is hard > > maple. > > The English walnut provides the nut we eat and does not have the fine > wood > > of a Black walnut, which has poor nuts for eating. > > Also the same for cherry. We work Black cherry which doesn't produce > edible > > cherries. The ones we eat come from a much smaller cherry "tree". > > > > So I suppose you wouldn't be depleting the edible walnut supply by > building > > with the other walnut. > > > > -- > > -- ---- Start of Message 58419 (thread 25308) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-02-25 03:07:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in Commercial value is not relevant to the issue of taste, eh? Anyways, I have seen black walnut meats in stores and have not compared the cost with English walnuts. My understanding is that California has some walnut orchards which are mostly black walnuts grafted onto another walnut's root stock. Isn't the wood from these called claro walnut? On Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:01:10 +0000 Bill Neely writes: >I thought that Black walnuts were too hard to crack to be commercially >valuable! BTW English walnut trees are grown on Black walnut >rootstock. > >Bill Neely (who loves BW meats, but would starve to death trying to >open >them) > >Douglas S Caprette wrote: > >> >The English walnut provides the nut we eat and does not have the >fine >> >wood of a Black walnut, which has poor nuts for eating. >> >> That, is quite literally a matter of taste. > > ---- Start of Message 58420 (thread 25308) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 1999-02-25 03:45:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:07:14 EST, Douglas S Caprette wrote: >My understanding is that California has some walnut orchards which are >mostly >black walnuts grafted onto another walnut's root stock. Isn't the wood >from >these called claro walnut? The following is excerpted from http://www.ca-walnutdesigns.com, which sells claro walnut, among other things: Claro Walnut (Juglans hindsii): The name Claro probably comes from the Spanish influence in early California history when the Franciscan Fathers were building the west coast missions. Their arrival in California, in the early 1700's, marks the first recorded planting of Persian Walnut, Juglans regia or as it is most commonly referred to as English Walnut. Upon the Spaniards arrival in the New World, they discovered a species of walnut unlike any other they had seen before. Another century would pass before the English botanist , Richard B. Hinds, would catalog this new species of the genus Juglans which today bares his name, Juglans hindsii, or as it is more commonly referred to as, Claro Walnut. Claro is a Spanish term, meaning clear, light, or bright. Bright certainly describes the wood since it exhibits such an assortment of colors, from reds to golds, mixed with tans, grays, black, and browns. Claro Walnut was discovered, as far as the oldest records show, growing in three localities in California: The valley of Walnut Creek in Contra Costa County, The banks of the Sacramento River, particularly at Walnut Grove, The Wooden Valley, east of Napa. It was from these original groves that in the mid 1800's the famous pioneer John Bidwell began propagating California Claro Walnut at his Rancho Chico Nursery in Chico California. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA New Email address: avogadro@b... (also avogadro@w...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 58424 (thread 25308) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-02-25 04:19:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in On Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:14:08 -0800 Kenneth Stagg writes: >cylkowski & broman wrote: >> Ya might do some checking before you try a chokecherry wine.... If I >recall my dendrology, the "choke" in chokecherry is a result of a little >arsenic. > >Oh dear!! I hope not. The last time I was back home (Montana) you >could still buy chokecherry syrups and jellies - they're my alltime favorites. I >was led to believe that the "choke" was due to something like active ingredient >in dieffenbachia (is it oxalic acid?) and it was destroyed by heating. >It could easily be, though, that there is arsenic in the pits, much like its >relatives apples and apricots. No no no, not arsenic it's cyanide. And you're right, it's only found in the pits or seeds. Cyanide (in the form of prussic acid I think) is quite common in the seeds and pits of many fruits. It's found in almonds too, but mostly destroyed by roasting. You're right that a little heating will destroy it. Remember that arsenic is an element found in minerals--it can get into food only if it's in the soil. Cyanide is an organic chemical, it can be manufactured by the plant itself so it is consistantly found in some plants. I don't know if chokecherries have oxalic acid in the fruit, it is found in rhubarb, mostly in the green part, and it also is easily destroyed by a little cooking. In the case of black cherries, choke cherries etc the fruit is hardly bigger than the pit so it's a major PIA to separate prior to fermentation. OTOH, Pat my friendly neighborhood winemaker tells me that if you just crush the fruit and ferment it, pits and all the pits will separate and sink to the bottom making it easy to separate by decanting or racking (siphoning). He says if you ferment on the pits you will get a slight almond flavor--a hint of almond in cherry wine sounds tasty. The almond flavor is due to traces of cyanide that remains in the wine. He says it won't be enough to cause any serious problems though if you drink a whole bottle you might get a headache. I don't think there's any cyanide in the wood of any black cherry, just the pits. ---- Start of Message 58426 (thread 25308) ---- From: Bill Neely Date: 1999-02-24 21:10:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder we don't bash our brains in I'm not so sure that heating oxalic acid destroys it, possibly it's leached out. Does anyone eat the green leaves of rhubarb? Both spinach and sorrel get their acid taste from oxalic acid but I've never noticed that spinach is sweetened by cooking. Regards, Bill Neely Douglas S Caprette wrote: > > On Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:14:08 -0800 Kenneth Stagg > writes: > >cylkowski & broman wrote: > >> Ya might do some checking before you try a chokecherry wine.... If I > >recall my dendrology, the "choke" in chokecherry is a result of a > little > >arsenic. > > > >Oh dear!! I hope not. The last time I was back home (Montana) you > >could still buy chokecherry syrups and jellies - they're my alltime > favorites. I > >was led to believe that the "choke" was due to something like active > ingredient > >in dieffenbachia (is it oxalic acid?) and it was destroyed by heating. > >It could easily be, though, that there is arsenic in the pits, much like > its > >relatives apples and apricots. > > No no no, not arsenic it's cyanide. And you're right, it's only found > in the pits or seeds. Cyanide (in the form of prussic acid I think) > is quite common in the seeds and pits of many fruits. It's found > in almonds too, but mostly destroyed by roasting. You're > right that a little heating will destroy it. Remember that arsenic is > an element found in minerals--it can get into food only if it's in the > soil. Cyanide is an organic chemical, it can be manufactured > by the plant itself so it is consistantly found in some plants. > > I don't know if chokecherries have oxalic acid in the fruit, it is found > in > rhubarb, mostly in the green part, and it also is easily destroyed by > a little cooking. > > In the case of black cherries, choke cherries etc the fruit is hardly > bigger than the pit so it's a major PIA to separate prior to > fermentation. > OTOH, Pat my friendly neighborhood winemaker tells me that if you > just crush the fruit and ferment it, pits and all the pits will separate > and sink to the bottom making it easy to separate by decanting or > racking (siphoning). He says if you ferment on the pits you will get > a slight almond flavor--a hint of almond in cherry wine sounds tasty. > The almond flavor is due to traces of cyanide that remains in the wine. > He says it won't be enough to cause any serious problems though > if you drink a whole bottle you might get a headache. > > I don't think there's any cyanide in the wood of any black cherry, > just the pits. > > -- ++++ End of thread 25308 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25309 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58194 (thread 25309) ---- From: "Ralph Sprang" Date: 1999-02-22 11:43:00 Subject: Bio Noticed my bio wasn't on the web page, so I thought I would post it again. I have been interested in old tools since a seminar with Eugene Landon back in the early 80's (1980's ). Got my first molding planes a few weeks later, have been adding to the collection ever since. I joined this list when it first branched off from rec.ww, but after a couple of years, the mail volume got to be too much, so I had to drop it. I have a 'real' email service now, so I resubscribed a month or two ago. My interests are primarily user tools, although I do my part to preserve history. If you have any planes or Barnes or peddle powered tools that need a good home, feel free to send them my way . Ralph Sprang woodturn@c... CCNmail for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.ccnmail.com ++++ End of thread 25309 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25310 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58196 (thread 25310) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-02-22 13:06:00 Subject: Emmert and Being Sick Galoots, If Tom Law is sick, it is just the flu that is filling our local hospit als with new patients daily. But, I don' know that Tom is sick. The sick person in the Emmert story which re-surfaces annually is the g uy who bought all the Emmert stock, molds and whatnot. I posted some time ago that the storage location for his "stash" was a clear candidate for EPA Superfund clean up. The large door accross from the stash had a skull and crossbones about 10 feet high on it! The ground was chemical saturated. I got a dibilitating headache in less than 15 minutes. In that time I saw 55 gallon drums overflowing with Emmert parts and accessories - all getting rained on through the almost remaining roof. I don't know the gents status, I have his phone number from years ago a nd that is not valid now. I do know he was in the hospital off and on some time ago. I suspect you'll have to keep looking to Tom for Emmert stuff or to whoever the manufacturer is that bought the molds. Karl ---- Start of Message 59270 (thread 25310) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1999-03-10 20:03:00 Subject: Re: Emmert and Being Sick On Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:06:13 -0500 "Karl W. Sanger" writes: >Galoots, > If Tom Law is sick, it is just the flu that is filling our >local hospitals with new patients daily. But, I don' know that Tom is sick. Sorry if my original message led anyone to believe that Tom is sick. I actually was referring to the guy Karl refers to below, Bob Kinslow . I have been waiting to reply to Karl's post until I got a return call from Tom Law. I misunderstood someone to say that Tom had bought out Kinslow. Actually Tom bought 20 vises from one shop going out of business. Kinslow still has his stock and is still as hard to contact as he has always been. Tom doesn't have any brackets or tilt jaws. He says he believes the brackets for the Lee Valley and Woodcraft vises should work with either the Emmert #1 or #2. Please don't take that as Gospel and sue him if it doesn't. This is just his opinion, he hasn't tried it. Tom does have six vises though. > The sick person in the Emmert story which re-surfaces annually >is the guy who bought all the Emmert stock, molds and whatnot. I posted some >time ago that the storage location for his "stash" was a clear candidate >for EPA Superfund clean up. The large door accross from the stash had a skull >and crossbones about 10 feet high on it! The ground was chemical >saturated. I got a dibilitating headache in less than 15 minutes. In that time I >saw 55 gallon drums overflowing with Emmert parts and accessories - all >getting rained on through the almost remaining roof. > I don't know the gents status, I have his phone number from >years ago and that is not valid now. I do know he was in the hospital off and on >some time ago. I suspect you'll have to keep looking to Tom for Emmert >stuff or to whoever the manufacturer is that bought the molds. > Regards, Steve ++++ End of thread 25310 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25311 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58198 (thread 25311) ---- From: David Tardiff Date: 1999-02-22 13:57:00 Subject: The Future of Crane's Auctions At the auction on Saturday they were giving out a flyer describing what's happened...the firm has been bought by an existing company that seemed to specialize in clocks and other antiques before, and will continue the work. The auctioneer who's been taking over after Richard's brief stints these days along with two principals from the other firm are going to continue the business, and they even said something about expanding the July auction, held at Richard's Barn, into a Friday, Saturday, AND Sunday affair. I hope that means they get more than the one portapotty.... ++++ End of thread 25311 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25312 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58202 (thread 25312) ---- From: "Mike DeLong" Date: 1999-02-22 14:39:00 Subject: Nice bench to check out Fellow Galoots, As a rule I don't surf the net much, but a recent article in the Woodshop News led me to check out the new web site co-hosted by Ellis Walentine and Jim Cummins, names any woodworking magazine addict will recognize. I stumbled upon this small entry by a man named Jon Leppo from Denver, and thought many of you contemplating a new bench might enjoy his impressive efforts. The double dovetails are impressive; the sliding board jack is neat and reminds me of THE bench at the Hancock Shaker Village; I also like the twin tail vise idea, and WOW, could I use all those drawers. The Emmert paint job is ... well, to each his own. Enjoy, Mike ------------------------------ Mike DeLong Southern Methodist University Director of Investment Systems ++++ End of thread 25312 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25313 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58203 (thread 25313) ---- From: "Mike DeLong" Date: 1999-02-22 14:48:00 Subject: FW: Nice bench to check out Sorry about that. Old age doncha know... here is the address http://www.woodcentral.com/shots/shot20.htm -----Original Message----- From: Mike DeLong [mailto:mdelong@m...] Sent: Monday, February 22, 1999 8:40 AM To: OldTools Subject: Nice bench to check out Fellow Galoots, As a rule I don't surf the net much, but a recent article in the Woodshop News led me to check out the new web site co-hosted by Ellis Walentine and Jim Cummins, names any woodworking magazine addict will recognize. I stumbled upon this small entry by a man named Jon Leppo from Denver, and thought many of you contemplating a new bench might enjoy his impressive efforts. The double dovetails are impressive; the sliding board jack is neat and reminds me of THE bench at the Hancock Shaker Village; I also like the twin tail vise idea, and WOW, could I use all those drawers. The Emmert paint job is ... well, to each his own. Enjoy, Mike ------------------------------ Mike DeLong Southern Methodist University Director of Investment Systems ++++ End of thread 25313 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25314 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58213 (thread 25314) ---- From: Mike Yazel Date: 1999-02-22 18:48:00 Subject: Gypsy Moth While all of this talk about past trangressions of our chosen material have been very interesting can anyone in the eastern states let us in the Midwest know what we have to look forward to now that the Gypsy Moth is in Indiana? Mike Yazel ---- Start of Message 58217 (thread 25314) ---- From: Carl W Muhlhausen Date: 1999-02-22 20:58:00 Subject: Re: Gypsy Moth Mike Yazel wrote: > > While all of this talk about past trangressions of our chosen material > have been very > interesting can anyone in the eastern states let us in the Midwest know > what we have to > look forward to now that the Gypsy Moth is in Indiana? > > Mike Yazel > Mike, They're awful beasts. Here in central NJ they seem to be in a cyclical decline, caused by I believe some sort of fungus infection. I read something to this effect a few years ago. Back in the early '80s when I first moved to NJ, we had a couple of years where they literally stripped the forests of NJ and So. NY bare in the spring. The leaves came out and everything was green, the caterpillars came out and the leaves disappeared. Then after the caterpillars went into their cocoon stage, the leaves came out again. I've read that the trees can stand a couple of years of this, but no more. They seem to eat almost any kind of leaf, except pine and I read they'll eventually go after the pine trees when they've consumed all the others. During the worst, the caterpillars were everywhere. They'd feed all morning and by afternoon, it would sound like rainfall in the woods. Except it wasn't rain, it was caterpillar poop dripping down from the trees. This was during my rock climbing days, so I spent a lot of time outside and in the woods. It was really disgusting. One day my climbing partner, who was bald, made the mistake of swatting one that landed on his head. It squished and he went around the rest of the day with dried green caterpillar guts/poop on his head. I thought it was kind of funny, but he wasn't too amused. Lately the biggest problem locally is the tent caterpillars which look like the gypsy moth caterpillars (to me anyway). They seem to only go after the cherry trees, but they will strip them badly. I have several cherry trees on my property, that have been hit hard the past 5 years or so. The trees are too high for me to spray so I'm hoping that Mother Nature will take care of the tent caterpillars the way she did the gypsy moth caterpillars. I normally have a live and let live attitude to almost all creatures as long as they don't actively go after me, but with these caterpillars I go out of my way to kill as many as I can. Hopefully there are some preventive measures that can be taken to control them beyond spraying all the woods with insecticides. Carl ( Just say (TM MoA) if you feel a prickly sensation on your head, think twice before swatting it) ---- Start of Message 58229 (thread 25314) ---- From: "Stephan Patnaude" Date: 1999-02-23 01:37:00 Subject: Re: Gypsy Moth A bad gypsy moth year tends to broaden your profanity range. As in, "they ate my &^\%$$#@$# pine tree, one %##&^$ needle at a time, in a %$&$&$ week. Then the little @%$#@% deposited it back on my house in the form of the most disgusting @^$#^# goo you could imagine. I could hear the dirty little #@%#@%@ chewing on it all night long" OT content: Whilst chemicals are more efficient, killing gyspy moth catapillars galootishly with sharpened steel impements is most satisfying. Futile yes but, well...... you'll see. The rashes if you should make skin contact, the acid catapillar poop eating the paint off your car, the decimated tree stands....did I mention that burning them is also quite....er.....never mind. - Stephan "fought in the great catapillar wars of the early 80's" Patnaude P.S. I like butterflies so I plant a special garden just for benefit of the catapillars. It attracts all sorts of pest as well but I figure that the little bit of garden damage is worth it. As for the Tent and Gypsy moth varieties, in the words of Stonewall Jackson, "Kill them all, every one of them...." ---- Start of Message 58234 (thread 25314) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 1999-02-23 02:38:00 Subject: Re: Gypsy Moth On Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:20:14 -0500, George Langford, Sc.D. wrote: >My personal observation, unaccompanied by any epidemiology, is >that the pesticide called "BT" (short for bacterial toxin) works >wonders, because ever since it was used here in SE PA the few GM >caterpillars that I have seen have been scrawny runts. Actually, that's bacillus thuringiensis. It's a bacteria that can be genetically bred to attack any of a number of pests, including Gypsy Moths. It doesn't affect anything but what it's targeted to hit and it's nontoxic. It is extremely effective as long as it's sprayed at the right time (when there's no rain in the forecast, most likely, and at the correct point in the development cycle). The DC and Montgomery County, MD authorities sprayed it extensively from helicopters to very good effect in the past few years. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA New Email address: avogadro@b... (also avogadro@w...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 58282 (thread 25314) ---- From: "Yarrow, Gary SH" Date: 1999-02-23 16:23:00 Subject: Re: Gypsy Moth Actually, that's bacillus thuringiensis. It's a bacteria that can be genetically bred to attack any of a number of pests, including Gypsy Moths. It doesn't affect anything but what it's targeted to hit and it's nontoxic. It is extremely effective as long as it's sprayed at the right time (when there's no rain in the forecast, most likely, and at the correct point in the development cycle). The DC and Montgomery County, MD authorities sprayed it extensively from helicopters to very good effect in the past few years. -_________________________________________________________________ Although BT, _Bacillus thuringiensis_ toxin, seems to work very well now, just remember the old saying among plant pathologists or plant biotech people (I used to be one of the latter), "Always bet on the bug!", meaning in this case, that if you are a betting man and are betting on who will win the war with a pest like the gypsy moth, bet on the moth. BT is relatively easy to overcome, genetically, thus it won't work for long. Thus the job security of us biotech and plant breeders. Gary ++++ End of thread 25314 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25315 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58216 (thread 25315) ---- From: williams@i... (Larry Williams) Date: 1999-02-22 19:54:00 Subject: gotta gloat GG's, Pardon my self indulgence here. Some may have seen Carl Murphy's mention of our new Clark & Williams web site. I just picked this post up off of one of the other woodworking lists. The author is a professional furniture maker from California who was looking for a replacement for his treasured Norris. His plans were to retire the Norris that had served both him and his grandfather so well. *********************** Posted by: R.J.Whelan - So. Cal. on February 22, 1999 at 11:28:49 I, too, received my Clark and Williams smoother on Friday. SWMBO, good and intelligent woman she is, allowed me a few moments to look at, and try out, the new plane before putting it away until our anniversary. Install the iron (true to his word, Bill sent the iron in ready to use condition); tap in the wedge; tap the iron - opps, too far; tap the heel; tap the iron; tap the wedge; tap the iron; tap the heel - tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. This is a demanding tool, setting the iron is not a 30 second task. Ok, I think the iron is right. Let's see what should I try first? Ah, how about that Tiger Maple. Zip - hmmm, must have the iron set too light. Nope, it did take a shaving; I've just never seen one this thin. I wonder how it'll do with Cocobolo? Zip - if I made enough shavings I could use them to tint glass. Now the real test. Install a piece of Doussie in the vise; angle the plane a little. Zip - oh my gosh, a shaving. I've never successfully planed this wood. Another pass; just to prove the first one wasn't a fluke. Zip, zip, zip, zip. I'm in love. I am officially out of the wood plane makin' business. My planes, of which I was so proud, are a poor imitation of this tool. If planes are the violins of the cabinet maker; then I now own a Strad. Can you tell I like it? I urge you to visit Bill and Larry's website (mentioned in Brian's post). These are incredible tools and I am delighted with my new plane - it's the finest tool I own . . . rj *************** I've got to say I'm a little worked up about the site and wanted to let you know my wife is starting to mention something she calls "gainful employment." She even left the classifieds here for me this morning =8-0 ........It'd be ok with me if ya all bought something ;-) Larry Williams Clark & Williams http://www.planemaker.com ++++ End of thread 25315 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25316 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58220 (thread 25316) ---- From: Jim Cook Date: 1999-02-22 21:41:00 Subject: FS Jim Cook's tool list update Hi Folks, THis is a list of updates only. Please email me if you'd like a more complete list including tools previously posted and still available. Standard oldtools terms apply. Thanks for looking, Jim Cook Newton, MA (401) Stanley #3 type 17. Has plastic depth adjuster, no fine frog adjust. Very clean, 90% japanning, nice wood, tote intact. 1-1/2" remains on notched rectangle cutter. $40. (190b) Stanley #4C type 9 smoother. Pitted on one side, and has some pitting on the sole. No japanning at all. reglued tote with tip intact. With some sole lapping could be a very good user. $20. (598) Union #31 transitional jointer. The finish has been removed, and the natural beech is very attractive with just a coat of wax. Reglued tote with tip intact. Sole is is flat, mouth is medium tight. 1-1/2" remains on original cutter. $35. (743) Union #3 size smoother. Corrugated sole. No identifying marks on plane body, the frog receiver is the older style used by Stanley. Reglued tote with tip intact, top of tote marked by bottom of lateral adjuster. Newer Stanley cutter. $40. (744) Marten Doscher/New York 3/4" round. Also double stamped "Hammacher Schlemmer/209 Bowery, NY" at heel. Some hammer marks at heel, but otherwise clean. $20. (745) A.J.Wilkinson/Boston 1/4" round. Good wood. $20. (746) M.Crannell/Albany #10 (5/8") Hollow and Round matched pair. Crisp wood, nice dark patina. $40. (747) Greenfield model 362 #8 round (5/8") Wood in good shape, with a bit of light staining at the nose. Overall nice color. $20. (750) Kellogg small wooden spar plane (or hollow). 1-5/8" cut, plane body is 2-1/4" high, 2-3/8" wide, 8-7/8" long. It has a Moulsen Bros. double iron with only about 1/2" remaining. Interesting little plane. $12. (754) Stanley #5-1/2 type 7 jumbo jack. 1-3/4" remains on proper ('92) 2-1/4" wide cutter. S casting mark on lever cap, left hand depth adjuster. Low knob. 90%+ japanning. Part of the tote tip is missing, but enough remains for a comfortable grip. $75. (755) Stanley #6 type 4 prelateral fore plane. A full 2" remains on proper cutter, The wood is nearly perfect, the tip on the graceful type 4 tote is intact. Japanning is about 90%. There are three small (about 1/2" across) spots of pitting on the sole, but not where they will affect use, and the metal is otherwise nice. $80 ++++ End of thread 25316 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25317 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58221 (thread 25317) ---- From: "Adajian" Date: 1999-02-22 21:43:00 Subject: Re: Crane's As a P.S. to my previous posting, the name of the company that Crane's was sold to is called the Time & Strike Auction Co., Paul M. Wilmott liscenced auctioneer. They're located in Allenstown N.H., which I understand is a 'burb of Manchester, so maybe they'll be keeping a similar venue. ( I hope so, you can never get enough syrup jokes, IMHO!) Gary A. In the Wilds of the N.W. Hills of CT. ---- Start of Message 58232 (thread 25317) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-23 02:17:00 Subject: Re: Crane's At 4:43 PM -0500 2/22/99, Adajian wrote: >As a P.S. to my previous posting, the name of the company that Crane's was >sold to is called the Time & Strike Auction Co., Hey, I know them.... They are less than 2 miles form my house!!! right behind BuyWise Supermarket across the street form the Mill.. >They're located in Allenstown N.H., They certainly are...... well actually it is a portion of town called Suncook (pronounced "zunkook" by the locals) ++++ End of thread 25317 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25318 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58223 (thread 25318) ---- From: "David Boreham" Date: 1999-02-22 23:13:00 Subject: Seeking low cost diamond hone source I liked my experiences with the small EZ-LAP diamond hones I received as a gift last month, so I'm thinking about investing in a couple of larger lapping plates. The WW catalogs want around $60 for same. I'm wondering if they can't be found for less. I did find this place: http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/sharpen/ezgif1.html which looks to be about 1/2 the price of Gucci Wade etc. Any other pointers would be most welcome. Thanks. ---- Start of Message 58227 (thread 25318) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 1999-02-22 23:15:00 Subject: Re: Seeking low cost diamond hone source On 22 Feb 99 at 15:13, David Boreham wrote: > I liked my experiences with the small EZ-LAP > diamond hones I received as a gift last month, > so I'm thinking about investing in a couple > of larger lapping plates. The WW catalogs want > around $60 for same. I'm wondering if they can't > be found for less. As usual, Wm. Alden seems to have the best price for these. The 8" DMT ones are $49, which isn't cheap but is at least less expensive than $60 for the same thing from Woodcraft, etc. -Ken, well known cheapskate Ken Greenberg IT #321; Blue Galoot #82 400 Los Gatos Blvd., Los Gatos, CA 95032 http://www.calast.com/ken/Personal/wood.htm ---- Start of Message 58228 (thread 25318) ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1999-02-23 00:47:00 Subject: Re: Seeking low cost diamond hone source On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Ken Greenberg wrote: > On 22 Feb 99 at 15:13, David Boreham wrote: > > As usual, Wm. Alden seems to have the best price for these. The 8" > DMT ones are $49, which isn't cheap but is at least less expensive > than $60 for the same thing from Woodcraft, etc. Are these the same plates? I know DMT makes two lines, where one is basically flattish, and the other is flat to a happy spec. I think the genuinely flat ones are a lot more than $60, but I might be wrong. -- Andrew Barss del tucson ++++ End of thread 25318 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25319 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58224 (thread 25319) ---- From: "John L. Odom" Date: 1999-02-22 23:36:00 Subject: Diamond hone source The last Harbor Freight flyer had diamond hones on sale and I noted they were cheap. Not a standard brand. I don't have any personal knowledge about them and all standard disclaimers apply. John Odom, in Ooltewah, TN ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---- Start of Message 58225 (thread 25319) ---- From: wmbrady Date: 1999-02-22 23:36:00 Subject: Re: Diamond hone source John L. Odom Wrote: >The last Harbor Freight flyer had diamond hones on sale and I noted they >were cheap. Not a standard brand. I have some of the Harbor Frt. diamond hones, bits and sticks. The largest they have is 1x6 inch. They are made in China & cut very well, and I use them quite a lot, but the EZ Laps are also lapping plates. (I have a 3x8 and a 2x8 EZ Lap). ---- Start of Message 58226 (thread 25319) ---- From: Chris Dunn Date: 1999-02-23 00:12:00 Subject: Re: Diamond hone source John L. Odom wrote: > > The last Harbor Freight flyer had diamond hones on sale and I > noted they were cheap. I actually bought one from Horror Fright - it was relatively cheap, is about 2" by 6" maybe, and mounted on a wooden block with an ill-fitting wooden cover. I got it back in my pre-SS days when I used waterstones. I used it for fast material removal while doing new bevels. I found it to work fairly well. Don't know how flat it was & don't care - I just used it to remove metal quickly. I still have it but now use AlZ paper for serious metal removal. Chris ++++ End of thread 25319 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25320 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58230 (thread 25320) ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 1999-02-23 01:56:00 Subject: The Last Seven Words of a Galoot... ... that is, it is finished. Yup, I actually improved on my one-small-project-per-year pace, by completing my son's mahogany bookcase last Saturday - that's a full 35 days early!. Executive summary: none. If I'm giving up my life to shellac, you can read this. Galootish tools used: #604 Bed Rock, #98 marking gage, #39 1/2 dado plane, #71 routah plane, #79 moving filletster rabbet plane, assorted chisels, #62 Lie-Nielsen jack plane, #8 jointer plane, Superior Tools marking knife, Hock shiv, #100 squirrel-tail modelmaker's plane, #92 cabinetmaker's rabbet plane, Millers Falls Langdon Acme Improved mitre box, IT dovetail and carcasse saws (#17), Disston brass-backed tenon saw, #82 Emmert vise, #140 Lie-Nielsen skew block plane, #18 knuckle joint block plane, various squares, Brian Emery holdfasts, LVT brass bench dogs, Stephen Patnaude custom bronze mallet, home-made mitre box, home-made shoot-board, oh, and a bastard file. The only p*wer tools used were my Neanderbuddy (the sawhorses are buried under garage sale fodder) and a R*S for buffing-out the finish. That's right, life's too short to french polish a 4'x3'x14" bookcase. the only sandpapuh used was for sharpening tools and easing finish blems, otherwise all surface prep was done with planes. Project highlights include my first substantial experience with mahogany (a far cry from the horrors of Zebrawood, but still tricky when there is squirrely grain), grand success with applying and rubbing-out a shellac finish, miserable disappointment with some lousy Philipine mahogany plywood (I'll make my own ship-lap or T&G for the back of the next bookcase), and finally, extended help from my now six-year old son (can it possibly be that he helped me build my first real project, almost three years ago?), who helped me throughout. I used my tried-and-true captured rabbet-in-a-dado joinery, with fox wedges in little tabs I cut into the rebated ends of the shelves. I think next time I do this, I'm going to forego the glue completely - the joints are that tight. Most underrated tool - Starret 4" double square. I use this for anything from checking jointing progress, to marking-out dadoes to impromptu depth-gage. I'd be lost without this little beauty. Most galling mistake - unsightly gap between "backplash" and case sides. The sides of the bookcase extend above the top, so as to help corral miscellaneous stuff displayed there. I carefully marked, but not so carefully cut a back piece with rebated (I love that English spelling - rabbet, Gunterman) ends. I turned my head to see that the kids weren't dismembering themselves with the scrub plane, and the board shifted a good 1/16 on the mitre box. I didn't notice until I'd finished the cut. It was the final piece of joinery for the project. Arrggggghhh! I'll fill-in the flaw later with veneer... or maybe not. I can just see my son, 20 years from now as he packs up his furniture and heads to his new home with his rich heiress bride, "Oh, that ugly gap? Dad did it when I was garroting my sister with a #40." Of course his bride will know what a #40 is. I'll have pictures posted as soon as I can get the roll of film developed. The cinnamon brown of the orange shellacked mahogany is simply indescribable. The looks, not the taste!! Paddy ---- Start of Message 58248 (thread 25320) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-02-23 04:50:00 Subject: Re: The Last Seven Words of a Galoot... At 8:56 PM -0500 2/22/99, Patrick Olguin wrote: [huge snip of annual project completion report] >The cinnamon brown of the orange shellacked mahogany is >simply indescribable. The looks, not the taste!! Ah, yeah, but what about the smell? How high was the high, lingering over the shellac pot, now, huh? Congratulations to the senior mom for having more or less successfully dorked some wood with that impressive roster of tools. But what about the Bench. Can we assume this was mostly done on a real Bench? Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 58250 (thread 25320) ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 1999-02-23 05:13:00 Subject: Re: The Last Seven Words of a Galoot... On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Tom Holloway wrote: : Congratulations to the senior mom for having more or less :successfully dorked some wood with that impressive roster of tools. But :what about the Bench. Can we assume this was mostly done on a real Bench? How could I forget? This was the first project built entirely on my new bench. Talk about your retro-gloat. http://members.xoom.com/paddyo/flame/index.html Paddy ++++ End of thread 25320 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25321 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58231 (thread 25321) ---- From: Anatol Polillo Date: 1999-02-22 20:58:00 Subject: Any firewood (was walnut firewood) At 07:47 PM 2/21/99 -0500, Karl W. Sanger wrote: >Galoots in a daze over Wwalnut firewood. That is nothing. I've seen >clear, fine walnut railroad ties (creosoted of course) and beautiful >cherry, tiger maple and white oak one too. Slash and burn timbering at it >best I think. > >Karl Galoots, In preperation for the "make a chair from a tree" video, John t ook down a big white oak tree. When we busted it out, the wood was only good for firewood. The outside bark had looked great, nice and straight; no branches for 60 or so feet; and in a competitive environment. That wood was not wasted. We had to cut down another one for the chair. This tree did contain some good chair wood and the remaining wood will not be wasted either. Anatol ********************************************************* * Home Page now available via this link: * * * * * * http://pw1.netcom.com/~anatol_p/alpprod/page1.htm * * * * * ********************************************************* ++++ End of thread 25321 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25322 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58233 (thread 25322) ---- From: "George Langford, Sc.D." Date: 1999-02-23 02:20:00 Subject: Gypsy Moth Hi Mike & squeamish Galoots ! Mike Yazel asked about Gypsy Moth predations: > ... snippage ... can anyone in the eastern states let us in the > Midwest know what we have to look forward to now that the Gypsy > Moth is in Indiana? Almost as much politics as caused by fluoridation, much more repugnant forms of life parading around, some really alarming defoliation here and there, eventually some airplanes flying back and forth, followed by little spots of kerosene on your new cars's finishes (none of the kerosene lands on old, rusty cars, BTW) and then more-or-less back to normal. The more the political storm, the longer the infestation lasts. My personal observation, unaccompanied by any epidemiology, is that the pesticide called "BT" (short for bacterial toxin) works wonders, because ever since it was used here in SE PA the few GM caterpillars that I have seen have been scrawny runts. The infestation locally lasted about two or three years; some hillsides were utterly denuded of leaves, but except for losses of the weaker individual trees, all has returned to normal. Perhaps there were fewer butterflies for some years. The GM caterpillars did not eat yellow poplar leaves, preferring oak, but the oak trees in my yard all survived the scourge. Nothing likes to eat the caterpillars, though. There were lots to be had, but I still didn't try them at home. OT content ? Same as the firewood thread. Best regards, George Langford amenex@e... ++++ End of thread 25322 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25323 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58240 (thread 25323) ---- From: Jim Peden Date: 1999-02-23 03:38:00 Subject: WTB: Auburn H & R Hi folks, I'm trying to complete my set of Auburn hollows and rounds. I'll consider any Auburn H & Rs, but would love to complete a set that has all the same owner's mark. Currently I've got several marked by D.S.Wildman, and a few marked by C.Bauer. Any size considered, but I really need, a 6R, a 10R, a 14R, 16 H & R, and a 18H. Thanks for any leads, Jim ++++ End of thread 25323 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25324 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58245 (thread 25324) ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 1999-02-23 04:11:00 Subject: Letter From The Front - Chisels and Saws Esteemed Galoots, Well, I'm down here in the Little Basement Shop That Could trying to survive the guerrilla war between the User and Collector/Accumulator sides of my psyche. I have a few chisels and I made room for about 30 of them in my toolchest. What I'm finding though is that I'm using just a few of them. For paring I use just a couple of them, a Union Hardware 1 1/4" with a long blade and a 5/8" George Woods Everlasting. For general trimming tend to I use a 1/4" Everlasting, a 5/8" Witherby and a 1" Eclipse. I try to spread it out a bit but it I keep coming back to the same chisels. Hmmm... I have some specialized chisels that I imagine I'll use but rarely, if that. Good to know that they are there. No, none of them are for sale. For saws, I find that the few I have in the toolchest get 90% of the use. A 5 1/2 pt rip, a 10 pt Disston D-8, an 11 pt Disston #12, a 12 pt Disston #16, a Disston #4 backsaw, a Jackson dovetail saw and the IT dovetail saw. I also use an 8 pt Disston D-8 and a Disston #4 backsaw that is filed rip for use as a tenon saw. I have about 30 other saws which I can rotate through the toolchest. What happens when I'm actually making stuff is that I gravitate to the tools that I know work the best. The rest become also-rans. When I need to pare something, I don't stand there at the toolchest and ponder which chisel I haven't used yet, I reach for Old Dependable, the one I know will do the job. My Collector side revels in being surrounded by fine tools while the User just wants to trim the joint and get on with the process of creating something new from a pile of boards. The type of saw fades in importance compared to how well I sharpened and set it. A well sharpened D-8 is a damn good saw and a dull #12 is just a dull saw with a wheat carved handle. The User gains ascendancy with every day I spend in the shop. I dream of playing a hammer dulcimer made from the sassafras and maple in my stash. I carry these dreams around with me, these images of finished pieces so perfect in my mind's eye. Making the image a reality is a protracted process of confronting my own shortcomings as a craftsman and negotiating the best possible solution. I'm not good enough to carry off Plan A consistently so life becomes a series of Plan B's. Still, this process of making something real from a mental apparition is intensely rewarding as you all well know. The User knows, the User lives for this. The Collector takes over when I get to the flea market. Heh, heh. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Will Work For Tools Survival Tips For Beginner Galoots are at The Galoot's Progress: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ---- Start of Message 58261 (thread 25324) ---- From: "George Langford, Sc.D." Date: 1999-02-23 12:43:00 Subject: Re: Letter From The Front - Chisels and Saws Hi Tom and self-searching Galoots ! Tom's writing is becoming unmistakable - halfway through this piece I realized it was another gem. My realization about collected-tool use is the opposite, though - I find myself grabbing a different drill (or a bunch of different drills, one per anticipated bit) so as to get the feel of their HTG use. Some drills were made just to be sold (late Stanley's), others just to show off (Yankee's), or because there weren't enough models already in the catalog (Millers Falls & Goodell- Pratt). It's kinda neet that the first pair and the second pair each ended up together ... Planes I treat similarly, but their designs I perceive entirely differently - the Bedrock being unquestionably the best user among metallic planes in my experience. It's kinda funny that the Collectors that I watch in action go for the pretty ones, but leave their fraternal and illegitimate twins for me; hee, hee. And why is it that among Sargent planes, the thin-casting models are more dear than the (presumably) heavy-casting ones, but the heavy ones that I have are far and away nicer to use ? Just because the thinner ones break easier ? Best regards, George Langford, on a crispy SE PA morning amenex@e... ++++ End of thread 25324 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25325 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58246 (thread 25325) ---- From: "Brian L. Pennington" Date: 1999-02-22 22:32:00 Subject: Workbench Top Rehab GGs, Last week I purchased an old trade school type workbench at a local auction. Three feet wide with a tool tray in the middle and four and one half feet long made with a two inch + thick maple top, two appropriately sized "rapid action" Abernathy vises on each end and a drawer on each side. However, the top has some delamination in areas but nothing really severe although the top is pretty beat up and obviously well used. So the question is do I mess with taking the top apart and attempt to correct the delaminations (not my first choice) or just plane it flat, apply an oil finish and start using it? Recommendations/reasons on which type of finish to use? I plan on using this as an interim bench until I get the real bench construction project started/finished, hopefully before its time to move again, and then turn it over to the two GITs which should serve them well for quite a while. TIA, Brian Pennington Manhattan, KS ++++ End of thread 25325 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25326 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58252 (thread 25326) ---- From: ecoyle@c... (eric coyle) Date: 1999-02-23 06:45:00 Subject: Deforestation Ed wrote.... I've been told that Spain is quite treeless, too, to the extent in some areas that is has been turned into a virtual desert. Ed -**************************************************** But iffen ya wanna see real deforestation, check out the Sahara. Talk about "clear-cut" Cowtown Eric- ---- Start of Message 58260 (thread 25326) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-23 09:40:00 Subject: Re: Deforestation -----Original Message----- From: eric coyle Date: Tuesday, 23 February 1999 15:11 Subject: Deforestation >I've been told that Spain is quite treeless, too, to >the extent in some areas that is has been turned into a >virtual desert. Quite true. Apart from national parks, where a few softwood forests still survive. Same in Portugal. Few national parks on the coast and north, some around Lisbon, after that it's only sprinkles. Sad... Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ---- Start of Message 58284 (thread 25326) ---- From: Richard Danzey Date: 1999-02-23 18:10:00 Subject: Re: Deforestation Nuno Souto wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: eric coyle > Date: Tuesday, 23 February 1999 15:11 > Subject: Deforestation > > >I've been told that Spain is quite treeless, too, to > >the extent in some areas that is has been turned into a > >virtual desert. > > Quite true. Apart from national parks, where a few softwood forests still > survive. > Same in Portugal. Few national parks on the coast and north, some around > Lisbon, after that it's only sprinkles. Sad... > > Cheers > Nuno Souto > nsouto@a... > http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm > > -- I've been told by a friend who did Peace Corps work there, that El Salvador is pretty much deforested. I've been evolving in my mind this concept that a country's true wealth can be measured by the forest resources it can claim. I don't know if it is an original concept with me, but I'd be interested in what other folks think. I've adjusted my behavior by this conviction ever since. More generally I think all wealth comes from the land (or ocean), and it is truly irresponsible to use it faster than it can recover from the use. I never bounced these thoughts off anyone else, so I look forward to others' responses. Best wishes.... danz ---- Start of Message 58305 (thread 25326) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-02-23 19:46:00 Subject: Re: Deforestation At 1:10 PM -0500 2/23/99, Richard Danzey wrote: [snip] >I've been evolving in my mind this >concept that a country's true wealth can be measured by the forest >resources it can claim. I don't know if it is an original concept with >me, but I'd be interested in what other folks think.... >More generally I think all wealth comes from the land (or ocean)... No reason why you couldn't have come up with such ideas on your own, but a group of (mostly) French philosophers beat you to it by about 250 years. They called themselves Physiocrats (from the Greek for "nature" and "to rule"--check them out in any good encyclopedia). Basically, they thought that any added wealth consists of the excess of the mass of agricultural and mineral products over their cost of production. Industry only changes the form of such materials extracted from the earth, and commerce only transfers existing value from one hand to the other. Without an extended discussion of the history of economic thought, which might even violate the list charter, suffice it to say that the Physiocratic School is now considered an ernest but misguided effort to figure out how the world of economics worked, before Adam Smith and some others finally figured it out. Current wisdom holds that beyond the cost of the raw materials, transformation adds value, and supply and demand determines value. For example (OLD TOOL CONTENT FOLLOWS:) a chunk of beech is a product of nature, but it has one value as firewood, and another value after being transformed into a plane. But if Normites rule the world, the wooden plane has no value as a tool, only as a curiosity, a historial artifact. It follows, therefore, that the mission of the galoot collective is to restore use value to implements which would otherwise fall into the pit of collectibility--or something like that. If you're gonna apply other standards of "worth" or "value," and redefine terms like "wealth," then then economics mostly adds to the confusion. (Hey, if the chemists can warn us about toxic chemicals, and the entomologists can wax lyrical about gypsy moths, cain't I dabble in history?) Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 58317 (thread 25326) ---- From: "Yarrow, Gary SH" Date: 1999-02-23 20:00:00 Subject: Re: Deforestation ---------- From: Richard Danzey To: nsouto Cc: OLDTOOLS Subject: Re: Deforestation Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 1:43PM Salvador is pretty much deforested. I've been evolving in my mind this concept that a country's true wealth can be measured by the forest resources it can claim. I don't know if it is an original concept with me, but I'd be interested in what other folks think. I've adjusted my behavior by this conviction ever since. More generally I think all wealth comes from the land (or ocean), and it is truly irresponsible to use it faster than it can recover from the use. I never bounced these thoughts off anyone else, so I look forward to others' responses. Best wishes.... danz This is actually an old concept, and has been used for centuries. Unfortunately, greed and a few other things get in the way. It even gets back to "slash and burn" agriculture. "Slash and Burn" ag worked fine for centuries, because of low populations, but as life spans got longer and we did not reduce the number of children in proportion, the population grew, thus more 'slash and burn' with less time for recovery. Then add in man's propensity to only use wood that is fashionable (mahogany is a good example), thus Europeans (and now Asians) only wanted the really good stuff, so we then deforested vast amounts to get those special trees, and left a lot of the trees sitting there. Rotting trees is not a waste, as far as Mother Nature is concerned, but if 2-3 acres are removed for one tree, then that's a problem (and according to researchers, this was and still is a process that was/is being used), i.e., that one tree is so valuable that 2-3 acres are removed for that one tree. Add to this our desire for more and more domestic animal use (i.e., beef), and we have an extremely complex relationship. There are no easy answers to this. Of course we can get back to the phrase "reduce, reuse, recycle" (which I am a strong believer in) but its more complicated than this. I agree with the post that someone submitted that said about the number of trees now is much higher than 100 years ago. This doesn't mean anything, when the number of trees now are 4" in diameter, when the size of the trees 100 years ago were 15-? inches in diameter. The same goes for the number of acres planted. And when the trees planted are now farmed with fast growing, non-native species (I think the Australians can really comment here, since this is a very real problem there.) Very complex, very frustrating, a very real problem that we all need to address. Gary ---- Start of Message 58334 (thread 25326) ---- From: georgew@m... Date: 1999-02-23 23:58:00 Subject: Re: Deforestation Let us not forget the cork oak. Spain and Portugal are still the major sources of this most important wood product. Haven't had the opportunity to work the wood, but plenty of opportunity to examine the bark. ;-) George >I've been told that Spain is quite treeless, too, to >the extent in some areas that is has been turned into a >virtual desert. Quite true. Apart from national parks, where a few softwood forests still survive. Same in Portugal. Few national parks on the coast and north, some around Lisbon, after that it's only sprinkles. Sad... Cheers Nuno Souto ---- Start of Message 58416 (thread 25326) ---- From: Richard Danzey Date: 1999-02-25 02:11:00 Subject: Re: Deforestation Tom; I'm flattered, but you gave me credit for depth of thought far beyond the actual case. I'm just struck by the difficulty of prospering in barren conditions (Arabian oil notwithstanding). Like I said, it's an evolving concept and given my receding synaptic connectivity, unlikely to evolve much more. Thanks for introducing me to the Physiocrats. Best wishes.... danz Tom Holloway wrote: > > At 1:10 PM -0500 2/23/99, Richard Danzey wrote: > [snip] > >I've been evolving in my mind this > >concept that a country's true wealth can be measured by the forest > >resources it can claim. I don't know if it is an original concept with > >me, but I'd be interested in what other folks think.... > >More generally I think all wealth comes from the land (or ocean)... > > No reason why you couldn't have come up with such ideas on your > own, but a group of (mostly) French philosophers beat you to it by about > 250 years. They called themselves Physiocrats (from the Greek for "nature" > and "to rule"--check them out in any good encyclopedia). Basically, they > thought that any added wealth consists of the excess of the mass of > agricultural and mineral products over their cost of production. Industry > only changes the form of such materials extracted from the earth, and > commerce only transfers existing value from one hand to the other. Without > an extended discussion of the history of economic thought, which might even > violate the list charter, suffice it to say that the Physiocratic School is > now considered an ernest but misguided effort to figure out how the world > of economics worked, before Adam Smith and some others finally figured it > out. > Current wisdom holds that beyond the cost of the raw materials, > transformation adds value, and supply and demand determines value. For > example (OLD TOOL CONTENT FOLLOWS:) a chunk of beech is a product of > nature, but it has one value as firewood, and another value after being > transformed into a plane. But if Normites rule the world, the wooden plane > has no value as a tool, only as a curiosity, a historial artifact. It > follows, therefore, that the mission of the galoot collective is to restore > use value to implements which would otherwise fall into the pit of > collectibility--or something like that. If you're gonna apply other > standards of "worth" or "value," and redefine terms like "wealth," then > then economics mostly adds to the confusion. > (Hey, if the chemists can warn us about toxic chemicals, and the > entomologists can wax lyrical about gypsy moths, cain't I dabble in > history?) > Tom Holloway > > -- ---- Start of Message 58499 (thread 25326) ---- From: ecoyle@c... (eric coyle) Date: 1999-02-26 06:18:00 Subject: re: Deforestation I forget who said what to whom.... but some of the salient features of this thread are ************************** > >I've been evolving in my mind this > >concept that a country's true wealth can be measured by the forest > >resources it can claim. I don't know if it is an original concept with > >me, but I'd be interested in what other folks think.... *********** . Basically, they > thought that any added wealth consists of the excess of the mass of > agricultural and mineral products over their cost of production. Industry > only changes the form of such materials extracted from the earth, and > commerce only transfers existing value from one hand to the other. Without > an extended discussion of the history of economic thought, which might even > violate the list charter, suffice it to say that the Physiocratic School is > now considered an ernest but misguided effort to figure out how the world > of economics worked, before Adam Smith and some others finally figured it > out *************************** I listened to one of them 'xpurts on the radio-box the other day, and he was talkin on roughly the same subject. Seems like GNP accounted for the value of goods and services produced, but took into account off-shore profits, so it got changed to GDP, which apparently is only domestic, but it has an intrinsic zero-value to the quality of life of the domestic residents. The long and short of it was that a country could produce 8 million zillion tons of asbestos, and thus have a great GDP, but if all of it's residents died of cancer, that wouldn't factor into the equation, nor would the widows and widowers, cause they're apparently treated as a big zero in economics. Kinda like that ISO thing, where you can make a cement lifejacket and be certified, as long as your doing it properly. Seems like the economists might be starting to advance their thinking to the point where they realize that they really know little more than the weather men do.....At least an inch of rain is an inch of rain. Up here in the GWN, the eco-concious point out that we're clear cutting on the same or greater scale as in the Amazon. I don't magine that the Murcans are far behind...... I humbly suggest that it ain't just forest, but also water, unpolluted land, air and all that other stuff we take for granted, blissful in our ignorance. I really think sometimes that all the folks who claim to know the how's and why's of socip-economic structures should tithe their salaries to SETI, for obvious reason. Cowtown Eric ---- Start of Message 58504 (thread 25326) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-26 11:14:00 Subject: Re: Deforestation -----Original Message----- From: eric coyle Date: Friday, 26 February 1999 14:42 Subject: re: Deforestation >Seems like the economists might be starting to advance their thinking to the >point where they realize that they really know little more than the weather >men do.....At least an inch of rain is an inch of rain. > >I humbly suggest that it ain't just forest, but also water, unpolluted land, >air and all that other stuff we take for granted, blissful in our ignorance. > Well, yeah. I've got a theory that says : "the great culprit of the state of affairs in the world economies is the spreadsheet". Yeah, the humble Excel or whatever . Picture this: before the spreadsheet, people had to do REAL research before pretty graphics were published. REAL numbers, and they had to sit down and THINK! With the advent of the spreadsheet, any bloody idiot can put together two lines of crappy data, plot them into a poor imitation of scientific research and make a nice presentation that blows away the less "PR-aware" true scientist. Result: the mess we see now. Economists with lots of solutions to the wrong problems. Numbers that mean nothing. And so on. In all these fantastic numbers all these people put out, has the following been accounted for: 1- Clean environment. 2- Health savings due to 1. 3- Energy savings due to 1. 4- Population satisfaction due to 1,2,3 above. I'll bet not. I'm reminded of the official studies here in Australia that "prove beyond any doubt" that freeways pollute more than normal roads. The theory went that because cars move faster in a freeway, they pollute more there than in a normal road where they move slow and in start-stop traffic. Full of beut numbers and graphics and plots and you-name-its. Yet when some of us asked the obvious question, we received just blank stares: "Cars that travel in freeways complete their trips in less time (otherwise they wouldn't be moving faster!). Cars that move in normal traffic take longer. Therefore, cars that run on freeways have their engines running for a lot less time than cars i n normal roads. No car that has a stopped motor will pollute more than one that has the motor running. Has this been taken into account in all these numbers?" Oh well, one day these idiots will learn... Sorry for the long rant. Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ---- Start of Message 59461 (thread 25326) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-25 11:43:00 Subject: Re: Deforestation -----Original Message----- From: georgew@m... Date: Wednesday, 24 February 1999 11:34 Subject: Re: Deforestation >Let us not forget the cork oak. Spain and Portugal are still the major source s of this most important wood product. Actually, the cork oak grows very sparse. It doesn't do well in dense forestation and it needs a fairly dry climate or the cork will rot. And it's amazing the amount of cork that comes out of one of those, when fully grown and in full production. >Haven't had the opportunity to work the wood, but plenty of opportunity to examine the bark. ;-) Ohh yeah!....... > Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ++++ End of thread 25326 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25327 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58253 (thread 25327) ---- From: Cougarjack@a... Date: 1999-02-23 07:16:00 Subject: Re: Gypsy Moths (longish and off-topic?) Galootish ones... I was torn about jumping into the Gypsy Moth discussion, as it is pretty off- topic for this list, and then reconsidered, as it made a significant difference in my hardwood business here in NJ. I hand logged all my wood at one time, on a smallish plot of woodlands that I have carefully tended for the last 15 years. The influx of the caterpillar resulted in the loss of almost 100% of my red oaks by the third year of the plague, and recent cutting indicates that much growth has been lost by most other species as well. (ring analysis) Annual rings are beginning to enlarge once again, which points to a receeding threat. A few interesting things have been learned during this war, and a couple of surprising ones as well. The State DEP commissioned a study on the worms, and I opened my land to surveyors and field workers in the hope of lending a hand. My property is situated along a state highway, and the scenic corridor along this road is planted with eastern white pine, which in recent years has been victim to a sawfly larva which kills the terminal buds. The state has been spraying sevin along the right of way to control this pest. The front half of my land gets the overspray from this effort. The rear portion has been sprayed with Bt by my spraying service for the last 15 years, so I thought I would have an interesting way to compare results. Wrong! Read on! Although both pesticides showed themselves to be capable of high mortality, neither gave acceptable control. The Bt proved to be more difficult to use, as it can affect the worm only at a certain stage of development. This can only be seen by careful daily observation. If the application is off this timing, there is negligible effect. The sevin was tricky to use as it must be applied in dry woodlands to be efficient. Rain water dilutes its potency. Nature just doesn't cooperate sometimes. The difficulty of use coupled with the poor control proved to be too expensive for most landowners. This poor control was shown to be due to the worm's balooning behavior at the first instar. Upon hatching, the little devil, no bigger than a snip of sewing thread, crawls instinctively to the highest point on the tree, and squirts a bit of silk streamer into the air. It carries him for miles sometimes, depending on prevailing winds. Since hatches tend to take place in millions of individuals at a time, this habit means that a plot can be sprayed, and a few days later, after a good rain has washed away the pesticides, a whole new population of worms comes balooning in from a distant place. By the fifth year of the infestation, the defoliation was beginning to change the natural fire cycle. Early spring defoliation meant that the forest floor, dry from winter, was now exposed to spring sunlight for even longer than usual, and wildfires during this period were very damaging. The worm itself has a covering of tiny hairs all over it, and these are sharp enough to penetrate human skin. Each of these is toxic, and sensitive people get a rash-like affliction from the spine-like hairs on light contact. The copious droppings seem to be harmless, aside from the resultant mess. On of the surprises which came about from this affair was related to the concurrent outbreak of Lyme's disease in southern NJ. Lyme's has been with us for a long time, but the timing of the outbreak raised many eyebrows. Again, the state commissioned a field study to find why Lyme's was on the rise. A lot of state workers were contracting it during field work, and were suffering serious complications. I did a minor portion of the local field work in this study, and I noticed myself that the tick which carried the Lyme's organism and was host to the infection was proliferating in my area. I could hardly work in the woods without suffering dozens of bites. It turned out that a tiny wasp was the primary predator in controlling the tick population, and the wasp seemed to be a casualty of the program to eradicate the Gypsy Moth caterpillar. We halted the widespread use of sevin three years ago, but the wasp has yet to return. The evil worm has apparently succumbed to several natural infectious agents, and after all that expensive spraying and effort, we now see a large kill every spring somewhere around the second instar. Almost as if by some signal, on one day, the worms all die. While this is a welcome turn of events, I can hardly wait until the remaining resistant breeders have had a chance to repopulate the woods. In the meantime, we have a few short years to learn how to cook these things and eat them. My harvesting techniques have changed over time due to this infestation. I formerly used only hand tools and a cable line to get my logs in. Now, because of the hazards of working on the ground for extended hours, I must turn to chainsaws and tractor drawn equipment. I've hardly touched my crosscut saws and my cant hook...and my prized Humboldt axe sits here looking pretty. Well, I'm getting too old for this logging nonsense anyway. My hat's off for your patience, gentle galoots....anything which affects the wood supply should interest us, as without wood what would we do with all these tools? Nick, in the pinelands of NJ ---- Start of Message 58343 (thread 25327) ---- From: Walter Barry Date: 1999-02-24 08:15:00 Subject: RE: Gypsy Moths (longish and off-topic?) > .....It turned out that a tiny wasp was the primary predator in controlling the > tick population, and the wasp seemed to be a casualty of the program to > eradicate the Gypsy Moth caterpillar. We halted the widespread use of sevin > three years ago, but the wasp has yet to return....... Great post Nick. Off topic on the old tools, but important on saving the trees. Pesticide overuse has gotten ridiculous. The loss of all the original old growth trees in America, that started these threads on the list is perfect proof of that. They certainly would not have gotten to be "old" had nature itself not done such a good job of protecting them in one form or another. We need to remember this next time we want to dump 50 lbs. of poison on our lawn to kill a few dozen grubs. Walter Old tools content? ok, called my buddy to see if he had any extra pulleys for my lathe, and he added that he had found another pair of T.H.Witherby chisels and put them aside for me. ++++ End of thread 25327 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25328 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58255 (thread 25328) ---- From: Tony Blanks Date: 1999-02-23 07:39:00 Subject: New book, Speirs / Spiers/ Speir Friends, I scored a new book today, the family history and plane making history of the Spiers of Ayr. "Through much Tribulation, Stewart Spiers and the Planemakers of Ayr", by Nigel Lampert, an Australian tool fancier, and founder of the long standing Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia. It is 128 pages, glossy paper, soft cover, page size 27 x 21 cm, or 10 5/8" x 7 1/4" for the dimensionally challenged. This book is a detailed technical description of the various planes developed over 100 years or so under the Spiers name (and variants). It also contains a family history and explains the role of the various family members and employees. The book reproduces 2 catalogues (1909 and 1930), four related catalogues and a 1909 patent application. Lots of great B&W and colour photos of neat planes and of some dead ends. Also diagrams and photos of dis-assembled planes, stamps, marks etc. But be warned, it is not a price guide, nor a product list in the style of Sellens if anyone is looking for something like that. There are also two A3 sized (14 1/2" x11 3/4") B & W glossie poster prints available. One is of a Spiers sales poster and is very good. The other is of the workshop with Mrs McNaught, wife of the shop foreman. That print is taken from a very poor original, and is reproduced in probably its original size on the back cover of the book. My advice would be to get the book and the sales poster, but leave Mrs McNaught unless you are really keen on Spiers related material. I thought I was, then I got a closer look at Mrs McNaught, and realised why Mr McNaught worked such long and lonely hours........ Available from Nigel Lampert, Oliver Publications, PO Box 658, Pascoe Vale, Victoria Aus 3044 Australia. Tel +61 3 9350 2242, Fax +61 3 9350 2214. Takes Visa, MC, Amex and Diners. Nigel isn't on email at present. Prices including post to the US, are: Book + both posters $US 40.50 (Posters mailed in a tube) Book only, $US 30.50 Either Poster, mailed in a tube $US 11.50 So, on reflection mail costs make it cheaper to buy both posters and regard Mrs McNaught as a bonus! Standard disclaimer as ever Regards, Tony B Hobart, Tasmania Seeking short, dowelling auger bits ++++ End of thread 25328 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25329 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58257 (thread 25329) ---- From: ecoyle@c... (eric coyle) Date: 1999-02-23 08:15:00 Subject: Just who was ezra bowman....... Cowtown Eric is workin away on a basement development, and this requires frequent trips to the local BS yard (that's building supply). Next door is a pawn shop, so that of course requires frequent visitations... (their tool "expert" also works at Home Despot, so iffen Home despot don't sell it, it ain't worth much....hee hee) So there was a little case marked "Ezra Bowman Carving tools" and when I looked at it, it was obvious that they were actually gravures. Now, Ezra had the absolute funkiest method of holding the cutting steels that I've ever seen. So much so that he patented it in on Mar 12, 1888. They wouldn't dicker in price, so I got em to thow in a panel pilot routah bit, but it don't fit the 71!!! The shlacked handles are about 4" long, and have a segment cut out of em lenthwise. In the apex of the missing segment a brass saw-tooth plate is set into the tool handle. The tool steel , which is about 3/16 square stock, ceptin for the cutting end, has a notch in it which engages the saw tooth, and prevents it from being pushed up into the handle. A collar, so patinated that it looked like aluminium, slides onto the handle and holds the tool stock engaged into the saw tooth very firmly. I believe that it ain't aluminium, but silver plate on brass, along with ol Ezras name on each and every one of the 6 tools and the cutting steels. Two of the tools is double ended (being cutting tips on both ends), and they are slightly different than the ones with the saw teeth. SO what's my query? well, the box looks like a 50's kinda box- cardboard, with fake paper alligator covering. Inside is a silver pseudo silk and blue velvet. fabrick. Kinda nice, but not bulletproof outside. So I'll accept that it might be somewhat less than a half a centruy old. But is it newer than that? I mean these tools all show the same relative coarseness of grind on the "action" surface- as though they was never honed at all. No rust, not even a ding in the handles. You can still see the saw marks on the flattened part. They really appear too freakin pristine to be "old"l. Nary een a single shaving of metal or wood in the box either, so just maybe they was never used at all. Cursory check of my printed reference mtl draws a large naught, as does the online ebaycyclopedia and various and sundry net searchs. So, Cowtown ain't askin which #4 is best or "how do I know if my handsaw is dull" , or even which speed to pedel my dremel , but rather just one of them bizarre esoteric questions to draw upon the unsurpassed eclectic wisdom of galootania. Any input? ideas? curiousity? Cowtown Eric ++++ End of thread 25329 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25330 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58262 (thread 25330) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-23 13:05:00 Subject: SWMBO gloat + a question Greetings GG's, My beloved just returned from a trip to Hong Kong and Burma with my daughter. She arrived home to present me with a super antique Chinese plane and a whole suitcase full of various hardwoods that she bought from a woodcarver in Burma. The plane is marked as blackwood, but it looks jst like very dark rosewood. Anyone knpw blackwood? It came with a chipbeaker marked Maden in Hong Kong and a Freanch Peugeot blade and a German blade marked Schweltau or some such....hard to make out Problems: the t-handle is missing and the wedge.....assuming that this really is blackwood, is it obtainable here? And where do I go to learn to use this thing properly? It's about 18" long with a 2 inch blade, and it's supposed to have that through handle like a Scandanavian flooring plane or like a #12. The wood is perfect, gorgeous, and very heavy. If it helps, I can get a pic up on the web. Thanks as always Tom, (Richard, you have to come back and ID these woods) ---- Start of Message 58265 (thread 25330) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1999-02-23 14:03:00 Subject: Re: SWMBO gloat + a question At 7:05 AM -0600 2/23/99, Tom Johnson shamelessly gloated: >My beloved ... arrived home to present me with a super antique Chinese >plane ... >The plane is marked as blackwood, but it looks jst like very dark rosewood. >Anyone know blackwood? Apparently there are different woods known as blackwood, depending on the part of the world. However, I would think the following, taken from F. Lewis Hinckley's _Directory of the Historic Cabinet Woods_, would be a likely candidate: "... EAST INDIAN ROSEWOOD The East Indian blackwood tree, Dalbergia latifolia [this may be outdated scientific nomenclature, and I haven't checked it], native to India and Ceylon, produces a timber that is more generally known as Indian, or East Indian rosewood, or as blackwood, but which may also be called shisham or sissoo .... This timber appears in medium or dark purplish-brown colors, and it is marked with denser black streaks produced by similar zones in the growth rings. Color effects may be somewhat similar to those of Brazilian rosewood, but as a rule contrasts are less pronounced. ... Timbers of this description were distributed among other sections of the Orient before they were introduced in Europe, eventually becoming so common in southern China as to acquire the name of Chinese blackwood. ..." If this is the correct timber, I believe it is available here in the states. Hope this helps, Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 58279 (thread 25330) ---- From: Dave Weisbord Date: 1999-02-23 16:19:00 Subject: Re: SWMBO gloat + a question >The plane is marked as blackwood, but it looks jst like very dark rosewood. >Anyone knpw blackwood? I know of African Blackwood. Very hard and dense, tough to work, and expensive. But it can be obtained. Dave ---- Start of Message 58307 (thread 25330) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-02-23 21:51:00 Subject: Re: SWMBO gloat + a question Blackwood is the wood of choice for bagpipe chanters and drones. I have no idea why, but it is very dense and hard. Pretty too. Dave Weisbord wrote: > >The plane is marked as blackwood, but it looks jst like very dark rosewood. > >Anyone knpw blackwood? > > I know of African Blackwood. Very hard and dense, tough to work, and > expensive. But it can be obtained. > > Dave > > -- ---- Start of Message 58311 (thread 25330) ---- From: Richard Danzey Date: 1999-02-23 22:40:00 Subject: Re: SWMBO gloat + a question "John H. Lederer" wrote: > > Blackwood is the wood of choice for bagpipe chanters and drones. > > I have no idea why, but it is very dense and hard. Pretty too. > > Dave Weisbord wrote: > > > >The plane is marked as blackwood, but it looks jst like very dark rosewood . > > >Anyone knpw blackwood? > > > > I know of African Blackwood. Very hard and dense, tough to work, and > > expensive. But it can be obtained. > > > > Dave > > > > -- > > -- > Regards, > > John Lederer > Oregon, Wisconsin > > -- This weekend my Bro In Law informed me clarinets were made of 'blackwood'. I always thought they used ebony, when they were made of wood, but apparently not. He said it was for the nice tone the wood imparted to the sound of the clarinet. When pressed for details he claimed ignorance, as do I. Seems as though there might be many 'blackwoods' and 'ironwoods' and precision suffers for it. Best wishes.... danz ---- Start of Message 58332 (thread 25330) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1999-02-24 03:09:00 Subject: Re: SWMBO gloat + a question Returning to Tom Johnson's: > ...super antique Chinese plane ... >Problems: the t-handle is missing and the wedge.....assuming that this >really is blackwood, is it obtainable here? And where do I go to learn to >use this thing properly? It's about 18" long with a 2 inch blade, and it's >supposed to have that through handle like a Scandanavian flooring plane ... This nudged me to dust off my copy of Rudolf P. Hommel's _China at Work_ (1937)** to see what information it might have. (Almost forgot I had it.) He shows one smaller Chinese plane (7 1/2"L, 2 1/4" W, 1 3/4" blade) of similar construction, and has this to say about the handle: "The Cross handle, 10 1/2 inches long, is inserted into a groove immediately back of the blade." The photo shows the handle as being nearly straight as it crosses the stock, while each end describes a slow, graceful arch. Mildly reminiscent of the main part of an ox yoke. The ends are rounded in cross section. The wedge appears similar to western ones at the top. The primary difference I can see in the photo is that the "floor" of the ramped area between the abutments has a very slow arc (across) and the ramped area terminates with the same slow curve as it comes to the surface about an inch from the top end of the wedge. I have no experience using Chinese planes. In fact, I have trouble envisioning how to use the cross handle -- though it might become self-evident with some experimentation. For what it's worth, Hommel states: "All Chinese carpenter planes are pushed away from the body, being held with both hands by the handles if they have any, or else held with one hand near the one end and with the other near the other end. This latter mode of holding applies especially to longer planes which do not have the characteristic handles ... ." ******************* ** Though originally published in 1937, my copy is from M.I.T. Press, 1969. Reminiscent of Henry Mercer's _Ancient Carpenters' Tools_, which isn't surprising as Mercer worked with Hommel in the early stages of this work. The book covers traditional Chinese tools and implements with chapters on "Tools to make Tools," "Tools for Procuring Food," Tools for Making Clothing," "Tools for Providing Shelter," and "Tools for Enabling Transport." The chapter on "Tools for Providing Shelter" covers a variety of woodworking tools including axes, adzes, saws, bench stops, boring devices, chisels, and lathes as well as planes. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 58373 (thread 25330) ---- From: Carl W Muhlhausen Date: 1999-02-24 16:02:00 Subject: Re: SWMBO gloat + a question Richard Danzey wrote: > > "John H. Lederer" wrote: > > > > Blackwood is the wood of choice for bagpipe chanters and drones. > > > > I have no idea why, but it is very dense and hard. Pretty too. > > > > Dave Weisbord wrote: > > > > > >The plane is marked as blackwood, but it looks jst like very dark rosewood. > > > >Anyone knpw blackwood? > > > > > > I know of African Blackwood. Very hard and dense, tough to work, and > > > expensive. But it can be obtained. > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > -- > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > John Lederer > > Oregon, Wisconsin > > > > -- > > This weekend my Bro In Law informed me clarinets were made of > 'blackwood'. I always thought they used ebony, when they were made of > wood, but apparently not. He said it was for the nice tone the wood > imparted to the sound of the clarinet. When pressed for details he > claimed ignorance, as do I. Seems as though there might be many > 'blackwoods' and 'ironwoods' and precision suffers for it. Best > wishes.... > > danz Courtesy of the pile of URLs I just received via Mr. Patnaude relayed from Mr Bohn, I discover: African Ebony - Diospyros spp. Family: Ebenaceae Uses: Parts of musical instruments, handles for cutlery and tools, brush backs, carvings, turnery, inlaid work. African Blackwood - Dalbergia melanoxylon Family: Leguminosae Other Common Names: Mufunjo (Uganda), Mpingo, Mugembe (Tanzania), Babanus (Sudan), Mukelete (Rhodesia), Grenadilla (Mozambique). Uses: Used primarily for the manufacture of woodwind instruments, but also used for other turnery work, brush backs, knife handles, walking sticks, inlay work, carvings, etc. It's the latter that's the clarinet wood - and I've read it's in short supply. Ref: http://www.windsorplywood.com/worldofwoods/tropical/AfricanBlackwood.html ---- Start of Message 58375 (thread 25330) ---- From: Richard Danzey Date: 1999-02-24 18:06:00 Subject: Re: SWMBO gloat + a question Carl and Keith; That seems like as definitive an answer as one could hope for on the topic. I'm pleased my BIL was right; disappointed I wasn't. When is Keith going to cash in on his remarkable searching talents? Or...how? Thanks for the information. Best wishes.... danz ++++ End of thread 25330 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25331 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58264 (thread 25331) ---- From: Louis Michaud Date: 1999-02-23 13:56:00 Subject: Whitherby chisel questions GG, Some time ago, I picked up a set of 5 chisels (1/8-1/4-3/8-1/2-7/8) at a garage sale. Did not see the mark until I cleaned them last night. They're stamped "T H Whitherby Warranted" in a rectangle. This would be a small gloat since a I paid $8 for the set... These are bevelled edge socket chisels with missing handles. The blade is about 6 1/4 in. from the tip to the shoulder, socket is around 2 1/2 for an overall lenght of 8 3/4. The thickness tapers from the shoulder (5/16) to the tip (1/8) following an arc, not a straight line. The blades are also have a slight curve along their lenght. Questions: Are these paring chisels or ordinary chisels? Is the curved blade a built in feature, or have the chisels been abused? Thanks. Louis Michaud ++++ End of thread 25331 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25332 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58271 (thread 25332) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-02-23 15:16:00 Subject: Warning: User, Accumulator, Collector Galoots, Sometime ago Tony S. first posted in his Sig, "One is an interest, two is a collection and three is an obsession". Close to the truth IMHO. Now, snipping a longer post from Tom P., he wrote: "Well, I'm down here in the Little Basement Shop That Could trying to survive the guerrilla war between the User and Collector/Accumulator sides of my psyche." I opine that this may not be survivable. Tom later added: " My Collector side revels in being surrounded by fine tools while the User just wants to trim the joint and get on with the process of creating something new from a pile of boards." IMHO, if one stays with it long enough, at sometime we each faced or wi ll face this issue. The results are constant, predictable. If you have only the tools that you need, you are a user!! If you have two of the same type of tool - after you have gained the knowledge/skill to use that type (important distinction) - you are an accumulator!!!!! Only when you have tools that you catalog, precisely identify, research, raise to the pedestal of a Web page and/or would never think of using because of potential damage to their value, you are a collector!!!!!! If like me, you have all three conditions AND you have separate complet e sets of the same in different "shop" spaces like the garage and the basement, you are ill!!!!! Seek help now. Cry out for care. It only gets worse over the aging period if someone doesn't shoot you. Karl - and sell you PC so you don't find eBay! ---- Start of Message 58292 (thread 25332) ---- From: Henry Sheard Date: 1999-02-23 20:01:00 Subject: Re: Warning: User, Accumulator, Collector Well, Galoots, at Karl's goading request, I'll post this to the list and run like hell for the deep shadows... Karl wrote... > ... If you have only the tools that you need, you are a user!! > If you have two of the same type of tool...you are an accumulator!!!!! > Only when you have tools that you catalog, precisely identify, > research, raise to the pedestal of a Web page and/or would > never think of using because of potential damage to their value, > you are a collector!!!!!! > If like me, you have all three conditions AND you have separate complete > sets of the same in different "shop" spaces like the garage and the > basement, you are ill!!!!! Seek help now. Cry out for care. It only > gets worse over the aging period if someone doesn't shoot you. > > Karl - and sell you PC so you don't find eBay! I've entered the mental fray a bit myself recently... for better or worse... While I have not yet even come close to learning how to use all the tools I have, I have begun to give considerable thought to acquiring more tools, tools that are more specialized, more esoteric, more aesthetic, more collectable. I recently began cataloging my tools. Granted, I'm doing this so that I can recall what I already have and avoid inadvertently duplicating tools. Well, that's all well and good, but I'm beginning to seriously suspect that it's as much a rationalization for recording values and types and conditions as it is simply a cataloging of pigeon holes that are already filled. Now, why on earth would I NEED to catalog prices and such...? I also am writing up a wish list in preparation for the upcoming PATINA extravaganza. Sure, that's it, that's the ticket. Then how come my list has tools on it that I might just as likely NEVER find a real use for? I mean, if I have a #3, 4, 5, 6, 7, & 8 (the bench planes, Jeff), then do I really need a #4-1/2 or a #5-1/2 or 5-1/4? If I have those planes #3 through #8 by various makers and of various types, do I really need to look for Stanley Type 2 versions of each of those (except the #7, which started this little runaway train of thought)? Hmmmm, am I a "user"? Sort of. I mean, I try to get a little time now and then to do some actual woodworking. Am I an "accumulator"? Well, I have almost no doubles and am trying to learn to use my tools (and actually use a pretty large percentage of what I have). Am I a [gasp] "collector"? I am hedging more and more in that direction. I'm quietly, gingerly turning the handle to that door, trying to not make any noise. I am peeking through the tiniest crack in that door, just to see without being seen. Karl mention the idea of not using tools because of the possible degradation of their collectability. He and I have joked about this a lot, from the time I bought a Wards #78 in the original box from him a couple years ago. Up to now, I've always fell on the side that I was a user, that I'd use my tools to make stuff, that with care and maintenance they'd last well beyond my life time and still be nearly as nice as when I got them. Lately, I've begun to waver on that a little. I've begun to reconsider using those tools that I have that embody some level of collectability, like the Wards #78 or my Type 2 #7, and maybe one or two others. Certainly, I could come across a more user grade version of these tools, and elevate the more collectable versions to a higher shelf, a shelf for display. I think of how cool it would be to have a set of #2/3/4 through #8/10 of Stanley type 2 planes... And then maybe another set of Type 5/6/7/8 or so, maybe this set for actual use. I think of how neat it would be to flesh out my accumulation with lots of the in-between tools, lots of the lesser-used specialty tools, lots of the really cool-looking gadget tools. If I am a "user," then why do I "waste" my time going to tool shows? Why don't I just hide out in my shop and keep learning to make things with wood, oh yeah, and learn how to use the tools by the way? If I am an "accumulator," then why do I "waste" my time going to tool shows? Why don't I split my time between hiding out in my shop making stuff and hitting the flea markets and yard sales looking for restorable, cheap, user-grade tools? If I'm a "collector," is it inevitable that I'll become a dealer? Oh, and I've glanced at eBay a few times recently. I can see how that could be very dangerous to one on the cusp of collecting... ~henry, who's been ruminating (the "thinking" definition, not the "chewing" definition) a lot lately P.S. Paddy--this is half my quota of posts for the year; please annotate my record appropriately! ---- Start of Message 58314 (thread 25332) ---- From: "Ron Harper" Date: 1999-02-23 22:58:00 Subject: Re: Warning: User, Accumulator, Collector -----Original Message----- From: Henry Sheard To: Oldtools List Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 3:16 PM Subject: Re: Warning: User, Accumulator, Collector >Henry says >Well, Galoots, at Karl's goading request, I'll post this to the >list and run like hell for the deep shadows... > >Karl wrote... > >> ... If you have only the tools that you need, you are a user!! >> If you have two of the same type of tool...you are an accumulator!!!!! > Only when you have tools that you catalog, precisely identify, There are a bunch of very sick individuals here This whole deal is sounding like a Steven King Book Ayuh Flee in terror, I am certainly not a collector... well except for the 33 different tiny oil cans . oh no you can't count the box of 40 some block planes or the drawer full of saw sets. I am just going toi the MWTCA meeting this weekend to learn a little okay AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGHHHHH > ---- Start of Message 58421 (thread 25332) ---- From: Paul Aud Date: 1999-02-25 03:42:00 Subject: Re: Warning: User, Accumulator, Collector > If like me, you have all three conditions AND you have separate complet e >sets of the same in different "shop" spaces like the garage and the >basement, you are ill!!!!! Seek help now. Cry out for care. It only >gets worse over the aging period if someone doesn't shoot you. > With the benefit of all such sufferers, I offer free removal of all offending tools. Since I care so much for your health, I'll even pay shipping and handeling. Please, for your own sake, contact me (or another not-so-ill) Galoot if you are suffering from the above symptoms. later, Oddball ++++ End of thread 25332 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25333 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58272 (thread 25333) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-02-23 15:16:00 Subject: Thin castings George asked: "And why is it that among Sargent planes, the thin-casting models are more dear than the (presumably) heavy-casting ones, but the heavy ones that I have are far and away nicer to use ? Just because the thinner ones break easier ?" Consistently, the thin castings were older models and if so, and based on condition and rarity, they are worth more - to a collector. Look for the '91 Lateral date. Users - Keep of them please! Send any marked #7 on the cap to me. Karl - closet Sargent collector ++++ End of thread 25333 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25334 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58277 (thread 25334) ---- From: "John L. Odom" Date: 1999-02-23 15:48:00 Subject: Deforestation Yes, in Roman times vast areas of what is now the Sahara was fertile and forested until cut for timber for triemes and to clear farmland etc. John Odom in Ooltewah, TN ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ++++ End of thread 25334 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25335 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58286 (thread 25335) ---- From: "Lee, Jonathan" Date: 1999-02-23 19:19:00 Subject: Stanley #100 picture frame miter box I was cleaning out the root cellar of our Victorian house last night and between trips to the 14 yrd dumpster sitting in the drive I came across a picture frame miter box (if that's what they are called). It is heavy (20lbs) and has clamps to hold two pices of wood at right angles. There are vertical guides which look like they exist to guide a saw cut for a miter, but no saw. It is marked Stanley 100. The top is covered with a film of rust, but the underside has a blue grey coat of paint on it. The base has screw holes for bolting to something. Total height is about 10 inches. So they question. How do I get parts for this? Is this a gloatable find or an impressive papaerweight? Thanks Jonathan Lee ---- Start of Message 58313 (thread 25335) ---- From: Stan Faullin Date: 1999-02-23 20:05:00 Subject: Re: Stanley #100 picture frame miter box At 02:19 PM 2/23/99 -0500, Jonathan Lee wrote: >I was cleaning out the root cellar of our Victorian house last night >and between trips to the 14 yrd dumpster sitting in the drive I came >across a picture frame miter box (if that's what they are called). It is >heavy (20lbs) and has clamps to hold two pices of wood at right >angles. There are vertical guides which look like they exist to guide a saw >cut for a miter, but no saw. It is marked Stanley 100. The top is covered >with a film of rust, but the underside has a blue grey coat of paint on it. >The base has screw holes for bolting to something. Total height is >about 10 inches. > >So they question. How do I get parts for this? Is this a gloatable find or >an impressive papaerweight? Hi Jonathan, I think you can gloat... Marsh was the original manufacturer and patent holder of this miter device. Stanley bought them out in about 1927. The #100 was made until the 1980's (maybe early 1990's?) . They don't have alot of general appeal since they are a single purpose tool. They are pretty common. They have the most appeal to someone doing picture frames. Parts that are commonly missing are the two rules (they measure from 8-36", I think), and the stop that clamps onto the rule. It sounds like your saw is also missing, but any 24" or 26" backsaw should work with it. The blue paint indicates a relatively late-model, but I'm not aware of any type study on these. As far as value goes, I'd guess $75-100. Complete or near complete models can reach $200. In my experience, they are a pretty tough sell. Stanley still has a few replacement parts for it. You can find their parts phone number on my webpage under "Sources". There's also a manual for it on my webpage under "Stanley Misc Tools". Cheers, Stan Stan Faullin check out my oldtool web page at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/faullin ---- Start of Message 58315 (thread 25335) ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1999-02-23 22:02:00 Subject: Re: Stanley #100 picture frame miter box On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Lee, Jonathan wrote: > So they question. How do I get parts for this? Call 1-800-PATLEACH, or 1-976-TOMBRUCE. Is this a gloatable find or > an impressive papaerweight? Both, but the former if you have desire to cut frames. I have the Marsh mitre box which I think was the ancestor of Stanley's, and it's great. Picture frames and midzied mouldings can be cut on it, very accurately. You'll likely want to clean the cuts up a little with a mitre trimmer, or a 45-degree shooting board, for fine work (dorrway mouldings won't need this treatment). -- Andrew barss ++++ End of thread 25335 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25336 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58287 (thread 25336) ---- From: Michael Lindgren Date: 1999-02-23 18:34:00 Subject: Finished a chute board Hi Folks, I always like the project reports, and seing Paddy's this morning reminded me that I ought to write one myself about the Kempinski chute board I finished up this weekend. In the summer of '97, Russ Allen was looking around for a place to get a casting made of his pattern, modeled after a Stanley chute board plane, as described in Kingshotts "making a modifying woodworking tools", and I offered to take it to the local foundry. He let Rob Kempinski and I get a casting for ourselves also, and Rob went ahead and made a pattern for the chute board, quadrant(swiveling part for setting angles) and hold down, which he had cast and sold a few of. I didn't get one to start, because I wasn't sure I would ever finish the plane, let alone the board. I did finish the plane last summer in time for the Illinois galootapalo oza, and I started thinking about a chute board. Finally got ahold of Rob, who was off the list for a few months about then, and he still had one he hadn't peddled, so he sent it up to me. Not a project to try without a mill, in my opinion. The casting had warped quite a bit, as it was long and not deep, so I had to mill off .040-.050" in the middle. Didn't lose the grooves on the top plate, but the #52 cast into where the plane glides disappeared before getting it all flat. Once it was all flat and square the rest of the metal parts were quite easily prepared, and I painted the exposed surfaces with Bill G.'s jappanning formula. My wife actually did the heating cycles on it, for which I am grateful, as that stuff stinks when hot, and her enduring it is quite above the call of duty. Drilling and tapping the misc. holes to hold the quadrant down and in the 45 and 90 degree orientations was also pretty simple- grey cast iron is pretty nice to work I have found. I turned a screw for locking down the quadrant, and another for the 45 and 90 degree setting from some 1/2" diameter mild steel rod, and cut a fence from some 1/4" steel plate. Throw in a long guide strip to complete the plane running track, and I was about done. Don't know why it took so long, except that gearing up to do the machining takes me some time, as I am not too good at it. In any case, at that point it made sense to me to mount the works on some sort of bench hook so I could drag it out, clamp the front lip in my vice be ready to go, so I made up board from some 3/4" baltic birch ply scrap, and glued two more strips of it across the front for a lip the vice could capture and finished it with some orange shellac. It is pretty orange, it might glow in the dark actually, but I didn't have any of paddy's super blonde yet, and I have been out of blonde shellac since a little after christmas. Not that I am anxiously waiting its arrival or anything Paddy... Screwed the chute board to it and tried it out. The plane slides back and forth merrily in it's track, and slices shavings off end grain nicely. Minimal splintering on the back side of the board thanks to the adjustable fence. I need to square it up a bit more so it can run really close to the iron full height, but it is still pretty good. To get things dead on 90 degrees vertically needs to have the iron set just right or you end up with a compound miter, but I expect to not be bothered by that as the setup and I get better acquainted. All in all a fun project for someone with some metalworking skills, and one that could be done a lot faster by someone with more skills than I have. Not a really cheap project by my standards. I figure I spent about $250 for all the parts and pieces for the plane and chute board, most of that going to Rob for the three castings needed to make the chute board. Still a far cry from the price that originals bring, but then you could always sell the original for whatever you had in it, which is probably not true of my homebrewed version! I have been wanting to make a trapzoidal violin for my daughter, and it has some funky angles in it, so this should be a good testing ground to see if a chute board and plane is really going to be useful to me, or if I just wasted a bunch of time making something cool looking but not terribly functional. Best regards, Mike Lindgren ---- Start of Message 58395 (thread 25336) ---- From: chasnune@i... Date: 1999-02-24 20:26:00 Subject: RE: Finished a chute board Mike wrote... > reminded me that I ought to write one myself about the Kempinski chute > board I finished up this weekend. Way to go, Mike. For those interested, Mike's infill he made that was on display for use and/or pleasure at last years Galootaplooza III was very nice. So... I egg-spect to see the chute board this year, Mike. Charlie NunemakerCharlie Nunemaker chasnune@i... Dir. of Information Systems North Shore - Barrington Assoc. of Realtors 450 Skokie Blvd. Bldg. 1200 Northbrook, IL 60062 847-480-7177 ++++ End of thread 25336 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25337 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58288 (thread 25337) ---- From: "Michael" Date: 1999-02-23 19:42:00 Subject: It's a wonder any hardwood.....Continuation. I feel rather like a person who has pulled a rug from under peoples feet....., for having now read what I wrote on boat building even I was left wishing that the author had taken the trouble to fill in a bit more of the background, for it appeared on first reading rather like a string vest - more holes than string. So I feel it behoves me to put right these omissions by writing a continuation to the original article to provide more background detail. As mentioned, 26 trades were involved in the construction of a man-of-war, from the time the timber was first sawn till the ship was finally 'Commissioned' as a ship-of-the-line. The following are a few of the craftsmen who worked on its construction:- Shipwrights, Caulkers, Joiners, Wheelwrights, Plumbers, Bricklayers, Sailmakers, Riggers, Sawyers, Coopers, Smiths, Blockmakers and Spinners, - these, together with their assistants/apprentices and general labourers were needed to build such warships such as H.M.S. Victory, {commissioned in 1778}, which although now lying in dry-dock at Portsmouth, was originally built at Chatham. If one was to choose which craftsmen were considered to be the most important the first would probably be the Shipwrights followed by the Caulkers, both having been apprenticed for seven years before being entitled to call themselves craftsmen. Shipwrights had both the experience and ability in laying the keel, which was usually of elm, fitting the ribs, planking the sides, and finally laying the decks. In addition to this they were also responsible for all repair work such as replacing damaged or defective timbers on any ship which needed it. Overseas visitors are always fascinated by the 'quaint' bygone aspects of daily life which we take for granted, the Beefeaters at the Tower of London being one which comes to mind. And this also applies to the various crafts, I mean to say who in their right mind would even think of a Shipwright still having a valid place in todays technology, but I can assure you that this trade is very much alive and flourishing today, for without their experience H.M.S. Victory would be but a memory. It is not often realised but the Victory has never been 'retired' from active service from the day it was commissioned, for it is the Admiral's flagship and therefore has to be kept in 'ship shape' order. Victory is rather like Grandpaws favoutite original felling axe, the one which has had three new heads and five new helves, for the only authentic remaining part of Victory is its name - the last time I visited it they were replacing the bow timbers for the umpteenth time, {and damn great big pieces of oak they were} - I would think that virtually every piece of timber in that ship has been replaced several times, and when last down in the bilges I could see the dry dock walling through the gaps in the planking. At this point it might be worthwhile clearing up a question which almost all overseas visitors ask when they visit one of our 'quaint' old pubs, why are the timbers a funny shape, and what's the reason for all the joint holes ?. In the 16th century, possibly even earlier, a law was passed that all newly felled oak was to go for shipbuilding and could not be used for buildings. So what happened was that as many old warships were continually being broken up the timbers from those would be made available for building, so the timber drugs would unload the new oak at the dockyard and return inland with old ships timbers. So now that you know the origin of the timbers built into many of these old pubs I hope you will have hours of enjoyment in working out exactly what part of the ship they originally came from, I know I do. I have made reference previously to the construction of the ships ribs which often required the joining of six to eight timbers. To ease their work Shipwrights were always on the look-out for trunks which had grown with a curve to them, and if one was found it would be halved so producing an identical profile for both the port and starboard ribs. Boatbuilders have always kept their eyes open for such trees, the best ones being those found growing on windswept headlands, for they are the ones best suited for the stem of a boat, {the pointed end to landlubbers}, and when one was found they would often buy it 'standing' for use at a later date. Caulkers do not immediately come to mind as craftsmen but were perhaps even more important than the Shipwrights, for after months of hard sweat and tears no Shipwright wanted to see his work slowly sink below the surface of the river for the simple want of a few strands of tarred oakum {old rope fibre} to fill the gaps between the planks - for no ship is of much use if it leaks like a sieve the moment it is launched. Caulking was a never ending task, the hull would be first caulked prior to launching when goat hair was mixed with strands of unpicked hemp rope because it wouldn't rot so easily, this would be hammered in between the planks and then covered with hot pitch. But once the boat had been launched her timbers would begin to move and some of the seams would open, thus needing a further stopping of fresh oakum. Once a ship had been launched {and found to float}, it was immediately dry docked to have the hull sheathed to combat the effects of the wood boring 'teredo navalis'. In the early days they used fir boards and then later copper sheathing. This having been done the ship was then moored out in the river to be fitted out. Mention has been made of storing pine trunks under seawater in mast ponds till needed, but even up to the turn of the century, and in some places even later, this method was used when storing windmill 'whips' or stocks. Pine trunks, often from Honduras, were first felled and then roughly squared off before being shipped across the Atlantic roped down on the deck of the boat till being unloaded at one of the ports over here, Hull being one I know of. These timbers would then be immersed in a seawater filled dry dock where they lay soaking till a Millwright needed a replacement stock and would go and choose the one he wanted from amongst those floating in the dock. Shipwrights often specialised in one particular aspect of their trade, one such being the 'mast makers'. These men worked alongside the mast ponds in mast houses shaping the trunks into masts by hand, and as the mainmasts of many of the larger men-of-war were extremely tall it required the glueing together of several trunks to produce one mast, - to add strength at the joints iron hoops would then be shrunk on whilst hot. I seem to remember a flurry of correspondance last July begun by Paul Pederson on the subject of Treenails, those he was talking about were itsy bitsy tiddly ones. The ones used to 'nail' ships timbers together in the old days were made of oak, 1 1/2 inches in diameter and often as long as 3 1/2 feet, such Treenails were made by Mooters working with an early type of lathe known as a moot {hence 'mooters'}. The newly constructed hull having been caulked and sheathed now lays at anchor in the river awaiting fitting out, so it would be remiss of me to end at this point, for what's the use of a hull by itself. The first job was the 'stepping' of the masts, a Third Rate ship-of-the-line as has been described here would have needed over 29 miles of rope and cordage together with some 900 pulley blocks, for few operations could be caried out without them. Standing rigging was needed to support the mast s, running rigging controlled the yards and sails, whilst blocks and tackle were used to hoist the anchors, lift the ships boats, and control the movement of the guns, all such ropes and rigging having been made in the Dockyard Ropery. Laying ropes was a specialised occupation using a rope forming machine, the oldest example in the world, dated 1811, is still in use in Chatham Dockyard and I have seen it working. What you have to remember is that all rope s were made in one length, so the roapwalk is built on the first floor to allow a free run - the one I remember at Devonport Dockyard was over one mile in length. There were three types of laid rope, cable, hawser and shroud. Cable, the heaviest, was used for the rigging and for the anchors, it varied in circumference from between 9 and 24 inches and was made by first by laying 9 strands into 3 ropes and then into one big rope. Hawser rope was composed of only 3 strands and was less than 9 inches in circumference. Shroud rope was of a finer quality and made four strands, its main use being as standing rigging to give lateral support to the masts. All the sails were also made in the Dockyard Sail Loft, and similar to the Laying-out floor for the timber shapes there was also a Laying-out floor for the sails where the shapes were chalked out. But as it was impossible to see the chalk lines through the canvas, raised markers known as 'sail prickers' were stabbed into the floor and connected with twine. As in all navies there is much ceremony, especially when the Captain is being piped aboard, but he wouldn't expect to have to make do with an old rowing boat, oh no, he had to have his own special boat, so in this case the ship would have had five small boats, a longboat, a barge {for the captain}, a pinnace and two cutters. As mentioned earlier the ship being described here was a Third Rate ship-of-the-line, and as such carried between 64 and 74 guns. If fitted with 74 they would consist of twenty-eight 32prs on the lower deck, thirty 24prs on the upper deck, twelve 9prs on the guarter deck and four on the forecastle. But it is of little use having a nice newly built man-of-war sitting out at anchor in the river doing nothing, so I'll flesh it out {no pun intended} by describing the crew. If we cast our minds back to our service days I think you will agree that only two things stay ingrained in our memories, one is our service number and the other is the advice we were given from day one "Never volunteer for anything". Now I believe that the last piece of advice originated from the days being described here, for no young man would be fool enough to sign on in the navy for the pay and conditions. So because so many were reluctant to join it was found necessary to send out the Press Gang to round up any young men they could find till the numbers had been made up, and as there were never enough to fill the void the Press Gang was out almost every night throughout the year. But when fully manned a ship of this type would have a crew of some 649 comprising 52 officers and their servants, 172 petty officers and able seamen, 229 ordinary seamen, 72 landsmen and 124 marines and, oh yes, I almost forgot, a number of 'ladies'. Strange as it may seem it was the accepted practice for men-of-war at that period to sail with a number of ladies on board, of those some were wives, whilst others were aboard to provide 'horizontal refreshment' {as the Americans so quaintly refer to it}. Whilst this may come as a surprise to many one only has to think of naval phrases which recall their presence on board ship, two which immediately come to my mind being the expression "Show a leg" - this was where the officer of the watch would shake a hammock when it was time to turn to, and if a ladies leg appeared the owner was allowed to stay in it. The other expression was "Son of a gun" - it was inevitable that eventually a baby would be born aboard, and this traditionally would happen beside one of the guns, the only clear space available, and the event would be recorded in the ships log as 'a child born, son of a gun', {simply because the mother wouldn't know who the father was} - an interesting commentry I feel on the naval life of that period carried over into the 20th century. The traditional name given English sailors by our American friends was 'Limey', this came about due to the lime fruit they eat to ward off scurvey. When a ship first set sail there would be plenty of fresh provisions, but when this had been consumed the crew would be forced back to basics, a weeks rations for a seaman consisted of 7lb ship's biscuit, 7 gallons of beer {or the equivalent in wine or spirits}, 4lb salt beef, 2lb salt pork, 2 pints of peas, 3 pints of oatmeal, 6oz of butter and 12oz of cheese. Officers though could afford to pay for certain luxuries to improve their diet, so it was not uncommon to find numerous livestock such as chickens and geese {eggs}, sheep and rabbits {meat} and goats {fresh milk}, penned on deck till needed. So far I have been describing the hypothetical construction of a British man-of-war of around 1760 as recorded in the diaries of the men who worked in Chatham Dockyard. What I would like now is to go back some 250 years to Tudor times and the 'time capsule' called the TUDOR ROSE. I would like first to set the picture. The Mary Rose was built in 1509-10 for King Henry V111 at Portsmouth Dockyard. In 1545 it set sail from Portsmouth to engage the French invasion fleet, it was so grossly overloaded with soldiers and guns as to be top heavy, at the same time the gun ports just above water level were open and the combination of all these factors caused the boat to heel to starboard, the water flooded in through the gunports and she sank roughly a mile offshore from Southsea Castle {part of old Portsmouth} in 14 meters of water. In the years following the sinking the interior of the wreck became filled with sediment, thus sealing the vessel and its contents and creating a time capsule. This is why today we have a 'living' example of a Tudor warship built in the 16th century which historians can study at leisure. I shall just briefly chart the events leading up to its eventual successful recovery in 1982. Mary Rose sank in 1545. In 1836 divers recovered some of the guns. In 1965-71 amateur divers searched for and located the wreck, and in 1971-79 trial excavations were made and go-ahead given for a full excavation which was made between 1979-82 with the hull being raised on October 11th and taken into the dry dock next to H.M.S. Victory where it is now on display. So what has been learnt since the hull was raised ?, a vast amount. Because the hull had been cocooned by the sediment much of what was left has been held in a form of suspended animation, and in the following paragraphs I will describe some of the discoveries which I feel will be of particular interest to other galoots. Firstly, how much of the original ship is left ?. The answer to this is not a lot, and also a great deal. What has to be remembered is that the M ary Rose sank in the Solent, the Channel seperating the Isle of Wight from the mainland. This particular stretch of water is well known for its strong currents which have the effect of scouring the seabed, so it is to be expected that in 450 years anything that could be would be completely destroyed, so therefore not a lot. On the other hand silt is continually being washed out of the rivers which enter the Solent and it is this sediment which was the material in which the Mary Rose became cocooned as it lay in a shallow depression in the sea bed and which protected it from further erosion, so therefore a great deal. Between the time excavations first began in 1971 till its recovery divers recovered some 3,000 timbers which are in the process of being reinstated in their original position in the hull, and when all are finally in place the ship will stand as high as a four storey-building and weigh some 350 tons. The hull. Working from the bottom up one has the hold which held the ballast, galley and stores; then came the Orlop deck which again held stores, equipment, food and hand weapons; next was the Main deck for the guns, the barber surgeons cabin {and operating theatre} and the carpenters workshop; the Upper deck had more guns and a cabin at the stern and more hand guns; and finally the Castle deck with its guns. The keel was constructed of two pieces of elm scarfed together to give a total length of 32 meters, the oak stem and stern posts were then scarfed to the keel before the floor timbers were laid and held in place by long iron keel bolts which passed through the keelson scarf. Then as the hull began to take shape further timbers were fitted, riders, futtocks, stringers, ceiling planking and other esoteric sounding timbers. The hull as it exists today is split down from bow to stern virtually mid line thus providing an exploded view of the starboard side of the ship virtually intact from keel to upper deck. Over a period of time as the ship began to settle into the sea bed numerous articles slid down to collect at the bottom, so to speak, and amongst the many finds were numerous tools used by the ships carpenter stored in chests below the bunks of his cabin. No fewer than 22 planes were found, at least one of which was designed to be operated by drawing it towards the body, rather than being pushed away. There were also rulers, braces, mallets and other tools which are familiar to all woodworkers. An interesting discovery was that the oak 'treenails' used to fasten the timbers together were as good as the day they were hammered home, whilst every iron nail, bolt and spike had completely corroded away. One has to remember that, as different from today where things are out of date within literally weeks, in the old days it was literally centuries before any radical new idea came to be used. I visited the Mary Rose with TATHS in the 1980s and went 'behind the scenes' to view items not on public display. Now the Mary Rose sank in 1545 so most of the items found would have been in use since in an unchanged form since before 1500. I was shown a wooden bucket recovered from the wreck and my comment was that I had seen an identical one made in the 1930s and that if both were placed together one could not tell which was which. I do not intend describing the heavy cannon except to say that it was discovered upon close examination that the wooden gun carriage for each gun was of a different size so that that particular gun could only be used at that specific gun port. It was also found that the grain of the wood was chosen to counteract the recoil of the gun, from the gun down to the frame it was vertical whilst the remainder was horizontal. The English longbowman of Tudor times was a force to be reconed with, a skilled archer being capable of shooting twelve arrows a minute, and amongst the items to survive were 138 yew bows and over 3,500 arrows. These bows were made using both the sapwood and hardwood, a form of laminate, each with different properties, the heartwood performing better under compression whilst the sapwood was better under tension. The length of these bows varied between 6' 1 1/2" and 6' 11", whilst the height of men using them was between 5 7 1/2" and 6'. Arrows were made from various woods, the ones from the Mary Rose being made from poplar, beech, ash and hazel, and varied in length from 24 to 32 inches, {according to the draw of the man using them}, the feathers used were probably either goose or swan. Now I could go on to describe the rigging blocks and the use of the parrel but I think you will have read enough by the time you get to here, so I will stop at this point. I think I've filled in a few of the holes in that string vest with all the above. Hope you found this second part of interest. Mike Field. ++++ End of thread 25337 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25338 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58290 (thread 25338) ---- From: MisterMatt@a... Date: 1999-02-23 19:21:00 Subject: Floor Mats Gentle Ones, After following the thread RE: foot fatigue I came across a catalog today at work with various safety items (always a good catalog for a Galoot to keep around, what with all the SS edges in the shop & all). Anyway, they offer a "Tuf-Sponge" runner in the following sizes (w/ qty discounts): 1 4 2' * 3' 10.35 9.73 27" * 3' 11.63 10.93 27" * 5' 18.64 17.53 3' * 5' 25.14 23.63 3' * 12' 59.09 55.54 or in custom lengths (price per linear foot) 2' 5.08 3' 7.62 4' 10.17 They come in gray or charcoal color and claim to decrease floor hardness up to 50%. They're made of 3/8" closed cell vinyl sponge material (& made in USA). I have not used them, and make no claims as to how good (or lousy) they are. The company is called Northern Safety Co., Inc. out of Utica, NY (home of Utica Club - a not too tasty brewed beverage). Phone number is 800-631-1246 (no web info). They also carry all types of glasses, gloves, respirators and other OSHA type gear. Standard disclaimer; no affiliation, just trying to help my fellow man, etc., etc. If anyone buys them, ping me & lemme know how they are. Sorry I have no OT content, other then I'm ticked I missed Crane's (would like to have seen Richard one last time), but I had a disagreement with my transmission as to just how far it was willing to travel this past weekend - and lost. Enjoy. Matt Glass - NYCity Galoot ---- Start of Message 58359 (thread 25338) ---- From: b2d@e... (Duke of URLs) Date: 1999-02-24 21:01:00 Subject: Re: Floor Mats Matt Glass - NYCity Galoot wrote: > 1 4 >2' * 3' 10.35 9.73 >27" * 3' 11.63 10.93 >27" * 5' 18.64 17.53 >3' * 5' 25.14 23.63 >3' * 12' 59.09 55.54 Just pennies more than my cow mats but all indications are maybe a more comfortable solution? Is this the death knell of my "Cow Mat In Every Shop" campaign? Keith Bohn ++++ End of thread 25338 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25339 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58291 (thread 25339) ---- From: Tim Fuss Date: 1999-02-23 20:10:00 Subject: Quick trip report Okay, we're back from the Great White North (and yes, it was - on all three counts). Rest easy you Northern Galoots, your regional iron deposits are mostly unharmed. We left on Friday morning for a casually paced drive toward Ottawa and met up with some friends in Kingston for a short visit. Time didn't allow a stop at the Maclaughlin Museum, but it will be on the list for our next visit. I restrained myself to only two rust stops on the way to Ottawa, since that was all I saw. In one shop, I picked up a lesson in looking closely at a tool before buying it (hanging head in shame). The plane I got told me it was a very cool and very narrow groove cutting half of a pair of match planes. I wanted something like that, so I got it. On closer inspection, the plane was stamped 1/2 and the fence was much too far from the iron for the 1/4 inch thick board I wanted to groove. Why don't I see stuff like that until it's too late? Turns out the iron was simply ground down. The financial damage wasn't too great, so I'll just modify it to my purpose anyway. In the other stop, (Rideau Antiques - near Rideau Ferry) I found my kind of antiques store. Someone compared it to an archeological dig. Very accurate. Right away I found a cool handsaw by Shurley & Dietrich of Galt, Ont. Now when I'm visiting Canada and I find a saw with a maple leaf on the medallion, there isn't much better fit in the souvineer category! Unless there's some Canadian made infills... I didn't have enough time to do this place justice. Who was it that wanted the Berg chisels? They had several heaped into a box with lots of others. So a question, since I wasn't listening too closely last time this came up. How old might this saw be? It has four split nuts and a nicely etched blade. The company name is superimposed over a maple leaf and a banner claiming "patent ground" over that. Seems maybe late 1800's from the feel of it, but that's just a guess. Either way, after some more cleaning and a sharpening, it will be a keeper. I firmly believe what someone else said: too many saws? NEVER! In Ottawa, I made time for a stop into the Lee Valley store. Nice place, but mobbed on a Saturday afternoon. I didn't need anything right away, so I left in search of antiques stores. I found a couple down on Bank Street, but there wasn't anything I had to bring home. Lots of great ice skating and sightseeing in a cool city. Really cool. I skipped skating on Monday morning because it was near zero (f) and some obscene negative number celsius. I do expect to go back :-) ---- Start of Message 58370 (thread 25339) ---- From: Tim Fuss Date: 1999-02-24 17:50:00 Subject: Re: Quick trip report Erv picked up on my little typo (brain fade) on the Shurly-Dietrich saw, and also pointed out that the blade may be fully included in the handle... I'm not sure that this saw has that feature, but I will check it out more carefully tonight. I do remember noticing that the kerf for the blade does go all the way through the forward portion of the handle and thinking that it was rather unusual. Then Patrick mentioned his S-D saw that has a patent date on the medallion. Again, I'll have to check more closely. Might this patent date refer to the handle feature that Erv told about? The medallion on mine is deeply recessed, so I'll have to remove some accumulated gunk. Bruce piped in about his, er, interest in Berg chisels. Again, I don't have it here, but I did get the brochure from Rideau Antiques, so I can relay some contact info to you. I'll leave it to the GWN Galoots to offer their retrieval serices. Some of the chisels looked really bright, but many were brands that I'm not familiar with, so I don't know if this was normal or if they were dipped. I kinda remember prices between $10-20 Canadian, apiece. Definately a cool place, I can't wait to go back and really get dirty... Bruce also kindly offered a 1/4" blade for the plane that I got. Sure, that would be mighty nice, Bruce! Yes, I actually do want to work with 1/4" thick boards. I sometimes need to make replacement parts for my old cameras (particularly lensboards). The originals are typically 1/4" thick with breadboard ends. Tricky stuff. Yeah, I know that MofA had a pair of 1/4" match planes, but cheapskate that I am, I couldn't bring myself to put up the cash (a couple of expensive home projects put a heavy clamp on the wallet, too). As for modifying the plane, I figured that I could glue in a shim along the fence (with reversible hide glue, of course) to center the blade on the skinny board. The skate? It is already thin enough - it is a metal plate screwed into place. The original blade is already b@s...@rdized, so no loss there. More tomorrow... ++++ End of thread 25339 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25340 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58293 (thread 25340) ---- From: Mark.Westerman@l... Date: 1999-02-23 19:22:00 Subject: Old Stanley vs. Record I recently came into a set (4-1/2, 5-1/2, and 7) of Record iron planes. They are about 15 years old (so I am told) and appear to be little used with just a slight bit of surface rust. How do these compare to the older Stanleys? Should I unload them and fish for some old Bedrocks or old Bailey Stanleys? (I am basically a user at heart and don't have the room for a c*ll*ct**n.) ---- Start of Message 58302 (thread 25340) ---- From: Don Stern Date: 1999-02-23 21:44:00 Subject: Re: Old Stanley vs. Record Mark, If you are interested in good users, these Records are well made and are excellent users, compared to Stanley counterparts. All they need is a proper tune up, throats tend to be a tad wide, and maybe a new Hock iron. You'll get a lot of good use. I have the Record 4 1/2 and 5 1/2, which were in excellent condition when I bought them quite reasonably and they do a great job. Haven't had a chance to put in the Hock irons yet but I will soon. Regards, Don At 02:22 PM 2/23/99 -0500, Mark.Westerman@l... wrote: > >I recently came into a set (4-1/2, 5-1/2, and 7) of Record iron >planes. They are about 15 years old (so I am told) and appear to >be little used with just a slight bit of surface rust. How do >these compare to the older Stanleys? Should I unload them and >fish for some old Bedrocks or old Bailey Stanleys? (I am basically >a user at heart and don't have the room for a c*ll*ct**n.) ---- Start of Message 58321 (thread 25340) ---- From: Jimmy Reina Date: 1999-02-24 12:28:00 Subject: Re: Old Stanley vs. Record Mark, It sounds as if you have some great tools. There is an Italain saying-"You just missed an opportunity to keep your mouth shut." Although I am of Italian heritage, I never miss putting my mouth in motion before putting my brain in gear(or my "send message now" button So here goes- Keep the planes that you have! Tune them up to whatever seems to work for you, sharpen the irons with whatever sharpening method you have. Use your planes, learn something about woodworking and yourself, retune your planes according to what you just learned, and enjoy yourself. Someday you are going to get a chance to use a Bedrock version of a plane that you have. At that point in time, based on the experience that you have accumulated, you will make a decision, about which would be right for you. I make my living selling tools. Because I am I woodworker, I lean towards woodworking tools. Right now, I have in my store more than 50 bench planes, five of which are British /Scottish infill planes, most of the rest are Stanley and three of those are Bedrocks(this is not an advertisement, I just need to make a point). I can have anything I want. In my garage I have three planes- a Stanley 7C jointer, a Record rabbet plane, and a Lie- Neilson block plane that I don't like very much. The jointer plane is about 60 years old, I gave a guy fifty bucks for it in 1992.It came with an iron and chipbreaker which I use as a rough cutting iron and I have a premium iron /chipbreaker that I use for finishing. The top of the handle is typically chipped off and the rough spot chaffs my hand every time I use it. It's my plane. I have it tuned for the way I use a plane. For someone else, it may be too coarse, for someone else again, it may be too fine. This weekend, I was making something, and my daughter wanted to go outside and use her new sidewalk chalk(and I thought planes were specialized-there is special chalk for sidewalks). I put my jointer nose down into a tree stump, and entirely shaped this plinth block by dragging it over my jointer. I did cuts with the grain, I trimmed the end grain, and I did the bevel cuts. It is no big deal! I even cut myself a couple of times just to remind myself that I was human. The point is someday you may want a Bedrock plane. Someday you may NEED a Bedrock plane because your planing style may become so finely tuned that only a Bedrock or an XYZ will do. I meet people everyday who are frozen by this type of decision. Part of it seems to be from reading and gathering the opinions of others who have already gone down the path. They all started useing the same planes you have, and I would be willing to bet that most of them still have those planes, tuned to their own specs, sitting alongside their Bedrocks. My usual wiseguy answer is "Mr. Chippendale would have stood in line to gat his hands on the planes you have." If you want to buy Bedrocks, buy Bedrocks, but my advice is to enjoy the planes you have for the 15-20 years until you are sure you need Bedrocks. Good luck in your woodworking. Jimmy Reina Mark.Westerman@l... wrote: > > I recently came into a set (4-1/2, 5-1/2, and 7) of Record iron > planes. They are about 15 years old (so I am told) and appear to > be little used with just a slight bit of surface rust. How do > these compare to the older Stanleys? Should I unload them and > fish for some old Bedrocks or old Bailey Stanleys? (I am basically > a user at heart and don't have the room for a c*ll*ct**n.) > > -- ---- Start of Message 58380 (thread 25340) ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1999-02-24 18:18:00 Subject: Re: Old Stanley vs. Record Oh dear, someone asked about Record (made in Yorkshire!) compared to Stanley (made in Co. Durham ) This Yorkshireman may be a teensy bit biased of course, but my conclusion, after ...ahem.. acquiring a mixed stable of both types, is that either/ neither brand is better. Both the stables seem to have sufferred at various times from bean counters / cost engineers. In more recent times, Record seem to have been ahead on design, and their unique products, like the 43 (Love 'em), and especially the 73 (love 'em more - Oh - just bought another an hour ago..) are best quality goods with no equals. The 778 is better designed than the 78, with 2 rods rather than one. But getting back on track, the average bench plane from either manufacturer is the same. Some tuning, ensure flatness, check the bed of the frog and adjust, sharpen correctly etc, and you'll know no difference. Records recent use of a srew cap iron instead of a lever *should* be an improvement - but the overall standard has declined so far... Same with Stanley - new product is all plastic and nasty. The Record Calvert-Stevens is meant to be of high quality, and I'd like to get my hands on one. Then there are the SS (Stay Set) range of cap iron'd planes from Record. - I have a No4 with this fitting, and whilst it is superficially attractive and useful I'm not convinced of how much time you save - maybe if I was using it for 7 hours a day... Bedrock designs are going to be more solid, but again, I wouldn't worry unless you're building exhibition furniture - and even then the cash is arguably better invested in timber. - 2 denari from the UK Richard Wilson Who one day will visit the Hawley Collection and research Record properly.... Mark.Westerman@l... wrote: > I recently came into a set (4-1/2, 5-1/2, and 7) of Record iron > planes. They are about 15 years old (so I am told) and appear to > be little used with just a slight bit of surface rust. How do > these compare to the older Stanleys? Should I unload them and > fish for some old Bedrocks or old Bailey Stanleys? (I am basically > a user at heart and don't have the room for a c*ll*ct**n.) > ---- Start of Message 58434 (thread 25340) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-25 08:16:00 Subject: Re: Old Stanley vs. Record > > Oh dear, > someone asked about Record (made in Yorkshire!) compared to Stanley > (made in Co. Durham ) > > This Yorkshireman may be a teensy bit biased of course, but my > conclusion, after ...ahem.. acquiring a mixed stable of both types, > is that either/ neither brand is better. Both the stables seem to > have sufferred at various times from bean counters / cost engineers. > > In more recent times, Record seem to have been ahead on design, and > their unique products, like the 43 (Love 'em), and especially the 73 > (love > 'em more - Oh - just bought another an hour ago..) are best quality > goods with no equals. The 778 is better designed than the 78, with > 2 rods rather than one. Woden (collector's hell - another name) also did this design, as shown in 1965 Buck & Hickman. But what about the WONDERFUL 311? Stanley eat your heart out! (consider that a UK, WTB, bottom-feeder req) > > The Record Calvert-Stevens is meant to be of high quality, and > I'd like to get my hands on one. I asked about this on the list a while back. The archive should have it for you. BugBear. ---- Start of Message 58438 (thread 25340) ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1999-02-25 10:51:00 Subject: Re: Old Stanley vs. Record following the diatribe on the Record 043, Paul Womack writes: > But what about the WONDERFUL 311? Stanley eat your heart out! > > (consider that a UK, WTB, bottom-feeder req) The 311 was for many years my only shoulder plane. I couldn't afford a073 at the time, and when I could, they'd stopped making them. (Did I mention that I bought one yesterday... gloat... no chips in the mouth- spare original blade waiting.. hehehe) All this talk of fine mouths makes me smile, as the 311 has a gaping mouth, and it never caused me any inconvenience. As long as the blade is sharp.. Yes, for general use, I'd take a 311 anywhere (and have done) - For those not familiar - this is a shoulder plane which splits at the toe and allows either a bull nose or no nose(chisel plane) configuration. Same general shape as the 073, but about 6" long by 1" Richard Wilson looking for a Record 074 - anyone.... > > > > The Record Calvert-Stevens is meant to be of high quality, and > > I'd like to get my hands on one. > > I asked about this on the list a while back. The archive > should have it for you. > > BugBear. > > -- ---- Start of Message 58440 (thread 25340) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-25 10:51:00 Subject: Re: Old Stanley vs. Record > > All this talk of fine mouths makes me smile, as the 311 has a gaping > mouth, and it never caused me any inconvenience. As long as the > blade is sharp.. > > Yes, for general use, I'd take a 311 anywhere (and have done) Just the benefit of the one person (is there one) on the list who HASN'T read Dunbars book, he has, uses, recommends a 311. Although (from memory) he had his shims and spacers re-milled, which may have given him a tighter than supplied mouth. BugBear. ---- Start of Message 59463 (thread 25340) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-02-25 07:46:00 Subject: RE: Old Stanley vs. Record ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Richard ~ Wilson ~ Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 6:19 PM ~ To: Mark.Westerman@l... ~ Cc: OLDTOOLS@l... ~ Subject: Re: Old Stanley vs. Record ~ ~ ~ But getting back on track, the average bench plane from either ~ manufacturer is the same. Some tuning, ensure flatness, check ~ the bed of the frog and adjust, sharpen correctly etc, and ~ you'll know ~ no ~ difference. Unless Stanley has seen the light, the important difference for me is that Record surface grind their soles whereas Stanley linish (belt sand) theirs. I have seen some linished planes that look as though the surface is slightly rounded just in front of the mouth, the critical area. Record say that their soles are ground to plus or minus 1-1/2thou. I once had a discussion with the production engineer in Stanley Works about this. All he would say was that linishing was just as good as grinding and that this produced results 'within their limits'. He was coy about what these limits were. Jeff ++++ End of thread 25340 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25341 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58294 (thread 25341) ---- From: Conan The Librarian Date: 1999-02-23 20:34:00 Subject: Re: The Last Seven Words of a Galoot Paddy wrote: > [snip of tool gloat thinly disguised as project report ;-) ] > > Most underrated tool - Starret 4" double square. I use this for > anything from checking jointing progress, to marking-out dadoes to > impromptu depth-gage. I'd be lost without this little beauty. Ah, yes ... someone else feels the same as I do. Recently there was a thread on useful shop gadgets on wreck.the.wood, and I realized that the one tool that spends the most time on my bench is probably this little baby. In addition to the uses Paddy mentioned, I use it all the time for extending dovetail layout lines, checking that plane iron and chisel cutting edges are square to their sides, etc., etc. Pretty much anything you would do with a try-square, with the added benefit of having a precision adjustable ruler. On the topic of useful shop gadgets -- I have a question about a recent acquisition (courtesy of the MoA), the #98 double-beam pizza-wheel marking gage. I am in the process of laying out/chopping 32 mortises, and I'm wondering if I'm using the tool correctly. This will probably simply show my ignorance, but that's never stopped me before ... It appears that you would hold it so that both wheels contact the wood simultaneously when marking. However, because of the orientation of the double-beams, one point starts to cut (mark) before the other if it is used that way. This means that at some point one wheel will be marking outside the length of the mortise. (Not a good thing?) Also, I had hoped to use this for endgrain marking, but can't seem to get a good mark this way. I tried rotating the gage so that only one wheel comes in contact with the wood at a time, but it seems to track poorly. Is there some little trick I am missing, or do I just need to get more accustomed to using the thing? Chuck Vance Woodworking projects at: http://www.swt.edu/~cv01/woodworking.html ++++ End of thread 25341 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25342 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58295 (thread 25342) ---- From: "John L. Odom" Date: 1999-02-23 20:47:00 Subject: Glue I've just located some 3" wide 8/4 maple boards that I can afford. I'm going to glue them edge up to make a 3" thick bench top. What glue should I use? I'm thinking of Titebond II because I have a lot. I specifically want input on this application, but would also like to hear from others on the general subject of : "What glue should I use for a given job?" Years ago, Lignum Vitae was considered "ungluable". Is that still true or do some of the newer formulations work on it and other difficult to glue woods. John Odom, in Ooltewah, TN ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---- Start of Message 58300 (thread 25342) ---- From: "Billy Patton" Date: 1999-02-23 21:20:00 Subject: Re: Glue I recently (in project time, not real time) put my benchtop together. Mike, Paul and I went together to get some TiteBond that is slow setting. It still wasn't slow enough but quite a bit slower than regular Tite Bond. You can ask Mike (mdelong@m...) exactly where he purchased it. -----Original Message----- From: John L. Odom To: OLDTOOLS@l... Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 2:53 PM Subject: Glue >I've just located some 3" wide 8/4 maple boards that I can afford. I'm >going to glue them edge up to make a 3" thick bench top. > >What glue should I use? I'm thinking of Titebond II because I have a >lot. I specifically want input on this application, but would also like >to hear from others on the general subject of : > >"What glue should I use for a given job?" > >Years ago, Lignum Vitae was considered "ungluable". Is that still true >or do some of the newer formulations work on it and other difficult to >glue woods. > >John Odom, in Ooltewah, TN > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >-- > ---- Start of Message 58306 (thread 25342) ---- From: Loganftp@a... Date: 1999-02-23 21:35:00 Subject: Re: Glue John asks: > I've just located some 3" wide 8/4 maple boards that I can afford. I'm > going to glue them edge up to make a 3" thick bench top. > What glue should I use? I'm thinking of Titebond II because I have a > lot. I specifically want input on this application, but would also like > to hear from others on the general subject of : > "What glue should I use for a given job?" John and glueing galoots in general, I glued my bench together the first time using titebond and after about a year and the hanging of 80 + lbs of Emmert vise off the front the joints started to fail. Now please keep in mind this was recycled bowling alley maple but maple none the less. I used poly glue the 2nd time around (I think it was titebond poly glue actually) and so far so good. Dave Tobbe Michigaloot PS - ploy glue requires moisture to cure properly - I used a little spray bottle of water ---- Start of Message 58310 (thread 25342) ---- From: "Frank Filippone" Date: 1999-02-23 22:33:00 Subject: RE: Glue What you want is Franklin Multibind 2000. Clear, good tack, WATERPROOF, works well, easy cleanup, about equal to Titebond 2 in open and closed setup time. >From Franklin directly, only downside.......... 5 Gallon Minimum......... about $70 for the "bottle" Frank ---- Start of Message 58340 (thread 25342) ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 1999-02-24 03:26:00 Subject: Re: Glue Dave Tobbe wrote: >I glued my bench together the first time using titebond and after about a >year >and the hanging of 80 + lbs of Emmert vise off the front the joints >started to >fail. Now please keep in mind this was recycled bowling alley maple but maple >none the less. Were the mating surfaces freshly surfaced prior to gluing? I have always read that aliphatic resin glues such as Titebond whould have a fresh glue surface for maximum bond strength. I'm usually careful to plane, pare or sand surfaces to be glued. Over the last ten years or so I have made several hammer dulcimers with Titebond. These instruments have tremendous tension on the pinblocks which are laminated from 4/4 maple. So far, so good **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Bleeds Rust A Field Guide To Millers Falls Type 1 Planes is featured at The Galoot's Progress: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ---- Start of Message 58344 (thread 25342) ---- From: D & B Brown Date: 1999-02-24 05:42:00 Subject: Re: Glue At 12:47 PM 2/23/99 -0800, John L. Odom wrote: >"What glue should I use for a given job?" I thought someone else would have mentioned this by now but since they didn't I'll put in my .02 worth. I would recommend resourcinal (sp?). This is a 2 part glue having a powdered catalyst & is commonly used in marine applications. I have a maple butcher block that I glued up 20 yrs. ago with that stuff & it doesn't show any signs of giving up yet. One piece of advice would be to resist the temptation to mix it a little "hot", this will make it brittle & not as strong as it would normally be. Mixing it a little too weak won't hurt anything, it just has a little longer cure time. Downsides....it's at least double the price alphetic resin glues & will stain (maroon no less). David Brown ---- Start of Message 58346 (thread 25342) ---- From: "Rodney Myrvaagnes" Date: 1999-02-24 06:22:00 Subject: Re: Glue I think Tom may have it here.I have two Italian harpsichords that i made in 1972-3, using original Titebond. They each have over 100 strings under tension since then, and they have held shape perfectly ever since built. Titebond has no gap filling ability. The surfaces must be freshly planed, and they must fit together. On Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:26:12 EST, TomPrice@a... wrote: >Dave Tobbe wrote: > >>I glued my bench together the first time using titebond and after about a >>year >>and the hanging of 80 + lbs of Emmert vise off the front the joints >>started to >>fail. Now please keep in mind this was recycled bowling alley maple but maple >>none the less. > >Were the mating surfaces freshly surfaced prior to gluing? I have always >read that aliphatic resin glues such as Titebond whould have a fresh glue >surface for maximum bond strength. I'm usually careful to plane, pare or >sand surfaces to be glued. Over the last ten years or so I have made >several hammer dulcimers with Titebond. These instruments have tremendous >tension on the pinblocks which are laminated from 4/4 maple. So far, so >good >**************************** >Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) >Bleeds Rust >A Field Guide To Millers Falls Type 1 Planes is featured at The Galoot's >Progress: >http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html > >-- > > Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a Associate Editor Electronic Products 20+ years without a Car, a TV, or a website ---- Start of Message 58368 (thread 25342) ---- From: Loganftp@a... Date: 1999-02-24 16:14:00 Subject: Re: Glue >>I glued my bench together the first time using titebond and after about a >>year >>and the hanging of 80 + lbs of Emmert vise off the front the joints >>started to >>fail. Now please keep in mind this was recycled bowling alley maple but maple >>none the less. Tom queries: >Were the mating surfaces freshly surfaced prior to gluing? I have always >read that aliphatic resin glues such as Titebond whould have a fresh glue >surface for maximum bond strength. I'm usually careful to plane, pare or >sand surfaces to be glued. Over the last ten years or so I have made >several hammer dulcimers with Titebond. These instruments have tremendous >tension on the pinblocks which are laminated from 4/4 maple. So far, so >good Uh no, This was some pretty nasty reclaimed wood that had been sitting outside for about a year. Most of the finish from the top (varnish?) had already weathered away. Call me lazy but I would be still planing it if I tried to plane the sides of this stuff before I glued it together. Heck, flattening the top (with handtools thankyouverymuch) darn near killed me. I guess in retrospect it would have been the right thing to do though. Since I'm a belt and suspenders kind of guy, I put two 3/8" threaded steel rods through the top for good measure as well as using the poly glue. Oh well - hindsight is 20-20 right? I agree that if you are using nice, clean, newly (hand) planed maple Titebond II should work very well. Dave Tobbe Michigaloot - Just Say tmPL - I just like the way the stuff foams up ---- Start of Message 58374 (thread 25342) ---- From: Jack Kamishlian Date: 1999-02-24 18:05:00 Subject: Re: Glue John and GGs, I've glued up hard maple legs for my bench with Titebond II, and the joints appear to be holding fairly well, as others will probably attest to. But the purpose of this post is to pass on a tip that I've used to spread the glue evenly over a large area. I don't claim to have originated it, but what I've used is a spreader made from an old hack saw blade. I've ground the teeth a little so to reduce the amount of glue spread, and held by a slot in a piece of scrap wood. Kind of like spreading mastic for tiles, except on a lot smaller scale. I've found that you can control the amount of squeeze-out pretty well so you don't have too much to clean up. Most importantly, it seem to help me in getting down a uniform thickness of glue by going one way, and then perpendicular. I use different lengths pieces of hack saw for different widths of glue joints -- you get a lot of pieces out of one blade. FWIW, Cheers, Jack John L. Odom wrote: > > I've just located some 3" wide 8/4 maple boards that I can afford. I'm > going to glue them edge up to make a 3" thick bench top. > > What glue should I use? I'm thinking of Titebond II because I have a > lot. I specifically want input on this application, but would also like > to hear from others on the general subject of : > > "What glue should I use for a given job?" > > Years ago, Lignum Vitae was considered "ungluable". Is that still true > or do some of the newer formulations work on it and other difficult to > glue woods. > > John Odom, in Ooltewah, TN > ---- Start of Message 58406 (thread 25342) ---- From: Phil and Debbie Koontz Date: 1999-02-24 23:38:00 Subject: Re: Glue A sticky topic-- I'm glad to see this thread, although I probably should just sit back and listen. I'm still in the process of picking a favorite, and I grab a bottle here, a can there. The February '99 FWW had a good summary on adhesives that enlightened without actually helping me decide what to use. Some impressions and observations: Yellow glue, including Elmers WW glue, Titebond, and so on is pretty good stuff. As the list has already observed, however, the joints are only as good as the technique. Like most other glue, I keep it indoors in the winter (a minor consideration). Although this stuff is not what I think of as traditional, it's hard to beat. The FWW article lumps white glues into the same category, saying that aliphatic resin is a meaningless marketing distinction from normal white polyvinyl acetate. Liquid hide glue is also pretty good stuff, and very satisfying to use, since it's almost traditional. I haven't tried the dry hide glue, and the liquid is both pricey and hard to find locally. Again, it has to be kept from freezing, and can go bad over time due to fermenting, I guess. It is easy to clean off the excess. Polyurethane is nice for filling gaps. I like the way it expands as it cures. A friend described it as "nasty to use" and I have to agree; my hands always have black stains for about three days after I use it. It seems pretty strong, although I still don't have full confidence in it. Traditional; no. Freeze proof; no. It can also go bad on the shelf after you open the bottle. I have some Weldwood Plastic Resin glue. It is a dry powder that you mix with water. It has to be used at a moderate temperature, which lets it out for any winter project in my shop. A book about building wooden airplanes says that this is what they are made with. Period. That makes me think is is very strong and reliable. I used it for the leg to rocker joints on a rocking chair, and it hasn't been any problem, so that is pretty convincing to me. Otherwise, no experience. Epoxy is nice for some things. I would probably use more of it if I had a West kit, but the little $2 packs come in handy sometimes. No conclusions, I'm afraid. Phil Koontz Who still doesn''t know what kind I will use next. ---- Start of Message 58409 (thread 25342) ---- From: "Scott E. Post" Date: 1999-02-25 00:15:00 Subject: Re: Glue > Jack Kamishlian wrote: > > I've glued up hard maple legs for my bench with Titebond II, > and the joints appear to be holding fairly well, as others will > probably attest to. But the purpose of this post is to pass on > a tip that I've used to spread the glue evenly over a large area. > > I don't claim to have originated it, but what I've used is a spreader > made from an old hack saw blade. I've ground the teeth a little > so to reduce the amount of glue spread, and held by a slot in > a piece of scrap wood. Kind of like spreading mastic for tiles, > except on a lot smaller scale. When I glued up my bench top I used plain old yellow carpenter's glue (a couple years and no problems so far). My spreading technique was to use a 4" paint roller, mostly for speed. Pour the glue from the gallon jug into a paint tray, wet the roller, and spread it on quite quickly and evenly. This gave me time to get everything lined up and clamped before it tacked up. You'd be *amazed* how much glue it takes to laminate a top. A lot of people mentioned Titebond. What is the advantage over plain old carpenter's glue? Being waterproof isn't much of an issue in a workbench. This also brings to up another question. Both times I've taken classes at the Marc Adams School of Woodworking he's mentioned that all the pro woodworkers he knows use white carpenters glue for general gluing. He says it's because it has a longer open time than yellow glue, the same strength, and doesn't stain the workpiece. The only time I've had a joint fail was when using white glue so I'm reticent to try again (although it *might* have been old glue - I'm not sure). ---- Start of Message 58417 (thread 25342) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-02-25 02:50:00 Subject: Re: Glue Scott E. Post wrote: > When I glued up my bench top I used plain old yellow carpenter's > glue (a couple years and no problems so far). My spreading technique > was to use a 4" paint roller, mostly for speed. Pour the glue from > the gallon jug into a paint tray, wet the roller, and spread it on > quite quickly and evenly. This gave me time to get everything lined > up and clamped before it tacked up. You'd be *amazed* how much glue > it takes to laminate a top. I'm doing a slight variation on this, I'm using about a 2" roller, I run a bead down the center of the board and then wipe the roller from top to bottom. The roller picks up enough glue to cover the top half of my board without much problem. Because it rolls I don't end up with any on what will be the top. The only problem I have is I'm not sure exactly how much to use, never having glued boards before. I backed off a bit when it started to ooze out the top when clamped. Sound about right? I'll let you know in a year or so how well it holds. It stands up to me jumping up and down and abusing it as much as I can right now, but then I'm a lightweight. Oh, I'm up to jointing 4 boards in about an hour. I would be faster but they have twisted and bowed on me. Fortunately I count it as good jointing experience. Roger Books ---- Start of Message 58430 (thread 25342) ---- From: Chuck Hess Date: 1999-02-25 04:29:00 Subject: Re: Glue Aloha Galoots, Here's my two cents about a workbench top glue up. A long time ago a friend and I were commissioned to tear down a white wooden fence. Once we started we started we realized that the fence was made of native white oak lumber. Did I say it was a really old fence? So we quickly decided to salvage the lumber and we saved it in spite of a lot of dry rot and other defects. the only tool we had to manage any millwork was a 1 1/2 pony saw so we ripped into 2 1/4" strips and then ripped all 4 sides down a little more to remove paint and rot. Did I say we were very young? Well we made two tops and the technique we used was to lay all the strips out on a pair of saw horses and applied titebond with a 9" paint roller. Then we flipped all the strips and rolled the glue on the other side. Then working very frantically we clamped with everything we had. Made quite a mess and had a few strips we had to beat up or down with a hammer. The top I made for myself had about 70 strips in it, as they were only about 5/8 thick and the tops turned out flat enough for us at the time. Old tools content- both these tops are old tools now as that was 25 years ago and they are both still the place you would want to go to hide under in a midwest tornado. I've been using titebond ever since. Even though the wood and our technique was far from perfect it did an impressive job. Chuck ---- Start of Message 58433 (thread 25342) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-02-25 08:16:00 Subject: Re: Glue At 09:50 PM 2/24/99 -0500, Roger Books wrote: >Scott E. Post wrote: > >The only problem I have is I'm not sure exactly how much to use, >never having glued boards before. I backed off a bit when it >started to ooze out the top when clamped. Sound about right? > >I'll let you know in a year or so how well it holds. It stands >up to me jumping up and down and abusing it as much as I can >right now, but then I'm a lightweight. > When the glue oozes out of the seams as you clamp it up you have enough. If you do it just right, only a thin bead of glue squeezes out and you have very little cleanup. This kind of joint where you glue long grain in parallel is very strong (assuming a good job on the jointing). Adam ---- Start of Message 58455 (thread 25342) ---- From: Carl W Muhlhausen Date: 1999-02-25 15:51:00 Subject: Re: Glue "Scott E. Post" wrote: > > This also brings to up another question. Both times I've taken classes > at the Marc Adams School of Woodworking he's mentioned that all the pro > woodworkers he knows use white carpenters glue for general gluing. He > says it's because it has a longer open time than yellow glue, the same > strength, and doesn't stain the workpiece. The only time I've had a > joint fail was when using white glue so I'm reticent to try again (although > it *might* have been old glue - I'm not sure). > Frank Klausz says the same thing. I've switched to using white glue for more complicated glue-ups or when I don't care how long it takes to dry. (Frank says to leave the clamps on for 12hrs with white glue.) I've never had any problems with the white glue, but I can't say that I notice a significant difference in the open time between white and yellow. Glue-ups are still a high stress time for me. Carl ++++ End of thread 25342 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25343 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58296 (thread 25343) ---- From: "Peterson, Samuel L." Date: 1999-02-23 20:56:00 Subject: Cataloging tools Gentle galoots, I started cataloging my tools for several reasons. The ability to make an insurance claim if needed, poor memory and to buy intelligently from work. At first it wasn't hard to remember exactly what I had, but became quite a chore as the tools piled up. I use MS-WORD, but have heard that there is an MS-ACCESS program being developed. It could be done for all I know. Actually, I haven't inventoried my squares, calipers, turning tools, chisels, etc.... Sample of my toollist: Planes - Metal #3 low knob, Type 11, 95% Japan, Hock blade, good+ #603 high knob, Type ,95% Japan, Good + #4 low knob, Type 8, 90% Japan, good #4c low knob, Type 9, 80% Japan, good #605 high knob, Type 10, 60% Japan, Hock blade, good KeenKutter #5 Bedrock low knob, Type 4, 80% japan, good+ #14 Millers Falls (#5), Type 3, NIB #5 1/2C high knob, Type 15, 80% Japan, Good + #5 1/4 high knob, Type 20, 80% Japan, good #606 low knob, Type 3, 50% Japan, good - #608 low knob, Type 4, 50% Japan, good - #40 ― beech knob/tote, 90% Japan, good+ #9 ― adjustable mouth block plane, 99% Japan, fine+ #15 adjustable mouth block plane, 50% Japan, hole in sole, good- #79 Sargent duplex rabbit plane, Floral casting, 80% Japan, good+ #10 high knob, Type 15, 95% Japan, good+ #79 Sargent chisel plane - modified #60 1/2 Planes - Wood J.M.Taber 1 ― skew rabbet J.M.Taber 1 1/4 skew rabbet John M.Taber #6 round John M.Taber #8 round John M.Taber #22 round John M.Taber #16 hollow John M.Taber #27 hollow John M.Taber adjustable double sash plane J.M.Taber #10 groove J.M.Taber #10 tongue J.M.Taber moving Fillister H. Chapin 1/4 bead #193 J.M.Taber 3/8 bead Auburn Tool Co. 3/8 bead #107 Lowell A. Fish 5/8 bead J.F. & G.M. Lindsey 7/8 bead Planes - Accessories #386 Jointer Gauge, Fine Routers #71 #271, fine Scrapers #80 Scraper, V logo, 70% japan, good+ #12 Scraper, 80% japan, good+ #12 1/2 Scraper, 90% japan, Hock blade, good+ Spokeshaves #53 Adjustable gullwing spokeshave - 60% Japan, good #55 Concave spokeshave, Sweetheart, Rejapan, good+ #60 Double spokeshave, Rule & Level, 85% Japan, good+ Millers Falls #1 Cigarshave - Good+ Wooden spokeshave - Good - Saws #358 Miterbox with 28" Disston backsaw H. Disston & Sons D8 w/fingerhole 5 point, good - Disston D8 11 point, good++ G. H. Bishop, 8 point, good+ Disston #68 gents backsaw, good+ Stanley gents backsaw, good++ Stanley coping saw Sandvik offset dovetail saw Boring - Hand brace items Stanley #945 handbrace 10" swing, good - Stanley #2101A handbrace 10" swing, good - Millers Falls #1322 handbrace 10" swing, fine Russell Jennings #100 auger bits w/box, bits fine & box fair #49 adjustable bit gauge, 95% nickel, fine Noname rose countersink auger bit Irwin standard screwdriver auger bit #4 Gimlet auger bit Unknown washer cutter auger bit Pexto 3" expandable auger bit w/ 7"depth gauge, good+ Clark 1" expandable auger bit, good+ Clark 3" expandable auger bit, good+ Boring - Drills #49 Goodell-Pratt hand drill w/handle storage, 90% japan, good+ #741 Breast drill w/level, 90% japan, good - Millers Falls #980 hand drill w/two speed, 90% japan, good+ Boring - T-augers Universal T-auger handle, racheting w/ removable handle, 80% japan, good Universal T-auger handle, good Drawknives H.D.Smith "perfect handle" drawknive, 8" blade, fine Unmarked drawknive, 8" blade, good ---- Start of Message 58308 (thread 25343) ---- From: tkissam@c... (Todd Kissam) Date: 1999-02-23 22:02:00 Subject: Re: Cataloging tools Just in case y'all don't know - the MWTCA Access Tools Collectors database version 2.0 has been available for some time from the MWTCA.org site. There is a small charge for members (goes to pay for the web space) - and if you are not a member you should join - membership is still a great bargain. Todd At 02:56 PM 2/23/99 -0600, you wrote: >Gentle galoots, > >I started cataloging my tools for several reasons. The ability to make an >insurance claim if needed, poor memory and to buy intelligently from work. >At first it wasn't hard to remember exactly what I had, but became quite a >chore as the tools piled up. I use MS-WORD, but have heard that there is an >MS-ACCESS program being developed. It could be done for all I know. >Actually, I haven't inventoried my squares, calipers, turning tools, >chisels, etc.... > ---- Start of Message 58324 (thread 25343) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-24 01:12:00 Subject: Re: Cataloging tools At 3:56 PM -0500 2/23/99, Peterson, Samuel L. wrote: >Gentle galoots, > >I started cataloging my tools for several reasons. >I use MS-WORD, but have heard that there is an >MS-ACCESS program being developed. that is news to me..... I used a program that was shareware (registered of course) I can't remeber the title of it as it is on the laptop on my desk at work.. I think it was called "easy shop" or something like that. ---- Start of Message 58327 (thread 25343) ---- From: phonore@i... (Paul Honore) Date: 1999-02-24 02:35:00 Subject: Re: Cataloging tools >At 3:56 PM -0500 2/23/99, Peterson, Samuel L. wrote: >>Gentle galoots, >> >>I started cataloging my tools for several reasons. >>I use MS-WORD, but have heard that there is an >>MS-ACCESS program being developed. > >that is news to me..... > I have a relatively uncomplicated MS-Access database that I can send as a "template" to anyone who wants it. Its pretty simple, but of course can be added to or changed by anyone who knows and has Access. If enough people really wanted it. I could convert it to a VB app that would run on any Windows PC. (You wouldn't need Access - kind of what those in the trade call "run-time executable"). I'm a little hesitant to do that because I don't want to have to support it. (I do enough of that stuff in the "day job") By the way, I have seen the MWTCA version and can't believe the amount of work that went into it. Paul Honore Hebron CT ---- Start of Message 58396 (thread 25343) ---- From: chasnune@i... Date: 1999-02-24 20:32:00 Subject: RE: Cataloging tools Sam wrote... > I use MS-WORD, but have heard that there is an MS-ACCESS program being developed. >It could be done for all I know. That would be M-WTCA that has the Access database. Check it out on the web site. Charlie Nunemaker chasnune@i... Dir. of Information Systems North Shore - Barrington Assoc. of Realtors 450 Skokie Blvd. Bldg. 1200 Northbrook, IL 60062 847-480-7177 ++++ End of thread 25343 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25344 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58298 (thread 25344) ---- From: ralph.brendler@a... (Ralph Brendler) Date: 1999-02-23 21:02:00 Subject: Stanley #98 ( was Re: The Last Seven Words of a Galoot) Chuck Vance writes: > On the topic of useful shop gadgets -- I have a question about a >recent acquisition (courtesy of the MoA), the #98 double-beam >pizza-wheel marking gage. > It appears that you would hold it so that both wheels contact the >wood simultaneously when marking. However, because of the orientation >of the double-beams, one point starts to cut (mark) before the other if >it is used that way. You can use it that way, but it will mark well outside the bounds of your mortise. I prefer to tilt the gage a few degrees so that only one wheel is in contact with the wood, and mark twice. > Is there some little trick I am missing, or do I just need to get >more accustomed to using the thing? The big disadvantage to these gages is that they have *extremely* small heads. It takes some getting used to to use these effectively. They do leave wonderfully clean marks, though, so keep with it and you'll be pleased with the results. For "user" pizza-wheelers, though, I much prefer the Goodell-Pratt and Leavitt (a.k.a Bartlett's Patent) gages. These use the same wheeled markers, but have a much larger and heavier head, and are thus easier to handle. You pay a bit more for these, but it's worth it IMO. ralph ++++ End of thread 25344 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25345 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58301 (thread 25345) ---- From: "HALL, HAYWARD" Date: 1999-02-23 21:28:00 Subject: Riving large trees Howdy, Well, I seem to have a good supply of large trees to split up and use. The University here has a pile where they dump them and said I could have all I want. They dont cut them up much, either. There's a large walnut tree just waiting for the froe and wedge, followed by a trip to the bandsaw mill (until I get mine, of course). Unfortunately, its about 1.5 - 2 feet in diameter, much larger than my froe. How do you start spliting something that big around? I've only done small (10") stuff so far. Any advice on the larger ones? I missed out on a huge oak with a 4' diameter because I didnt have a clue how to split it up... Also, is it best to start out with a split right down the middle of the pith, or a planks length off to the side? Thanks. Hayward Hall Springfield MO ---- Start of Message 58312 (thread 25345) ---- From: "Ron Harper" Date: 1999-02-23 22:46:00 Subject: Re: Riving large trees Roy show the step by step on this in one of his books Use wedges and gluts and split length wise along the log Ron -----Original Message----- From: HALL, HAYWARD To: Old Tools ListServer (E-mail) Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 4:29 PM Subject: Riving large trees >Howdy, > >Well, I seem to have a good supply of large trees to split up and use. The >University here has a pile where they dump them and said I could have all I >want. They dont cut them up much, either. There's a large walnut tree just >waiting for the froe and wedge, followed by a trip to the bandsaw mill >(until I get mine, of course). Unfortunately, its about 1.5 - 2 feet in >diameter, much larger than my froe. How do you start spliting something >that big around? I've only done small (10") stuff so far. Any advice on >the larger ones? I missed out on a huge oak with a 4' diameter because I >didnt have a clue how to split it up... > >Also, is it best to start out with a split right down the middle of the >pith, or a planks length off to the side? > >Thanks. > >Hayward Hall >Springfield MO > >-- > > ---- Start of Message 58325 (thread 25345) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-24 01:15:00 Subject: Re: Riving large trees >Unfortunately, its about 1.5 - 2 feet in >diameter, much larger than my froe. >How do you start spliting something >that big around? I'd say a few wedges and a good sledge-hammah. >Also, is it best to start out with a split right down the middle of the >pith, or a planks length off to the side? it will find it's own path... but I try to split it, the quarter it.. then send it through the NeanderBuddie. I can get 4 peices of pretty close to quarter-sawn (two peices at aleast) and the rest is rift to flat sawn as you work your way out.... ---- Start of Message 58347 (thread 25345) ---- From: "Tim Swihart" Date: 1999-02-24 07:22:00 Subject: Re: Riving large trees Hayward Hall asked: > Well, I seem to have a good supply of large trees to split up and use. The > University here has a pile where they dump them and said I could have all I > want. They dont cut them up much, either. There's a large walnut tree just > waiting for the froe and wedge, followed by a trip to the bandsaw mill > (until I get mine, of course). Unfortunately, its about 1.5 - 2 feet in > diameter, much larger than my froe. How do you start spliting something > that big around? I've only done small (10") stuff so far. Any advice on > the larger ones? I missed out on a huge oak with a 4' diameter because I > didnt have a clue how to split it up... Sledges and wedges. Descriptions on how to use them can be found in several places: - one of Roy Underhill's books (the one that tells how to make a shaving horse I think) - Mike Dunbar's Windsor chair making book - several other, more recent, chair making books (since chair makers tend to work with riven wood, books on the subject cover how to go from log to arm/bow blank :-) I can probably dig up others if you don't have access to any of them and your local library doesn't have them either. Or, if you're a quick study, try this: First wedge at 45 degrees (so it's splitting down towards the ground as well as along the log's length)...get it started well. Then, put a second wedge about midway down from the first one...straight along the log's length. If you have a BIG log (over 24" diameter), you'll probably need a third wedge in the end to get things going. Don't try to split it all from just the end. Use more wedges along the sides (both sides of the split, not just one). I generally use four wedges along the sides. Two on each side, leapfrogging them downwards sort of like zipper teeth (the wedge furthest down the split opens the log enough to release the top wedge, then move it down on its side to a point below the other side's lowest wedge and keep repeating). It really helps if you have a couple of low-profile wedges (about half the usual angle) for a more controlled start. I've had Oak logs just spit my normal wedges right out at me, but the low-profile wedges go in more like a nail until they're deep enough that the pressure starts splitting the log...at which point the normal wedges can get a "bite" and do the rest of the work. Doesn't take long to open a large log...assuming it's a kind of wood (like Red Oak or Ash) that splits well. Don't bother with "unsplittable" woods like Elm and Silk Oak (Australian Lacewood). I use a 4 lb maul to start my wedges (slower, but much better control and for chair parts, controlling the split is more important to me than speed). For really big splits, after the wedges are started, I sometimes use a 6 lb or 8 lb sledge hammer, but as long as you're working splittable wood, you can make really good, controlled progress with just the 4 lb maul... Also, you can do your riving faster by using a broad hatchet (one handed version of a broad axe) instead of the froe when starting your smaller rivings. It's head is thicker, so you'll spread your piece better (watch for run out and read up on how to control it). Get the broad hatchet as deep as you can, then insert the froe below it and pry (keep a grip on the hatchet so it doesn't land on your toes). > > Also, is it best to start out with a split right down the middle of the > pith, or a planks length off to the side? Keep an even amount of mass on both sides of the split or your split will run out towards the lighter side. Note that I said equal mass, not just the middle. If your log is odd-shaped, along the middle might not give you equal mass. It's easier than it sounds...after you've practiced a bit, re-read the books, practiced some more.... :-) Tim S. (I'm not parting with my low profile wedges and I'm always on the prowl for more). ---- Start of Message 58369 (thread 25345) ---- From: Carl W Muhlhausen Date: 1999-02-24 16:17:00 Subject: Re: Riving large trees "HALL, HAYWARD" wrote: > > Howdy, > > Well, I seem to have a good supply of large trees to split up and use. The > University here has a pile where they dump them and said I could have all I > want. They dont cut them up much, either. There's a large walnut tree just > waiting for the froe and wedge, followed by a trip to the bandsaw mill > (until I get mine, of course). Unfortunately, its about 1.5 - 2 feet in > diameter, much larger than my froe. How do you start spliting something > that big around? I've only done small (10") stuff so far. Any advice on > the larger ones? I missed out on a huge oak with a 4' diameter because I > didnt have a clue how to split it up... > > Also, is it best to start out with a split right down the middle of the > pith, or a planks length off to the side? Do you need to split them at all? Nice wide boards are a premium. Perhaps there's someone with a Woodmizer locally that can saw them up for you. Woodmizer keeps a list of people that will cut wood for a price. Carl ---- Start of Message 58533 (thread 25345) ---- From: "HALL, HAYWARD" Date: 1999-02-26 18:08:00 Subject: RE: Riving large trees Thanks to all for the splitting info. I was concerned about being able to start a straight split on logs greater than my froe would handle. Apparently if you start the split with several small iron wedges it will generally split straight across. Finish up with larger gluts worked on either side, and try to keep an equal mass above and below the split. We'll see how it goes this weekend, unless it rains. Since the log has been setting outside untreated for a long time, it may be too checked for fine wood. I may be the first on my block to own a walnut shavehorse :). Thanks. Hayward Hall Springfield MO ---- Start of Message 58583 (thread 25345) ---- From: "Tim Swihart" Date: 1999-02-27 06:50:00 Subject: Re: Riving large trees Hayward Hall wrote: > > Thanks to all for the splitting info. I was concerned about being able to > start a straight split on logs greater than my froe would handle. > Apparently if you start the split with several small iron wedges it will > generally split straight across. Finish up with larger gluts worked on > either side, and try to keep an equal mass above and below the split. > > We'll see how it goes this weekend, unless it rains. Since the log has been > setting outside untreated for a long time, it may be too checked for fine > wood. One other trick for helping start the split along the line (across the end) that you want it to: - drive a wedge an inch or so into the end - wiggle it out (may have to smack it sideways back and forth a few times) - move it down just under the width of the wedge and drive it in about an inch or so (make sure it overlaps the "cut" made by the first time you drove it in) - wiggle it out, move it down so it barely overlaps, drive it in, repeat until you've scored the log all the way across the end. - go back to the top and start splitting the log... This gives you one inch deep "cut" across the end that will have a big effect on "steering" the split as it goes across the end grain. Tim S. ---- Start of Message 58599 (thread 25345) ---- From: Charles Nunemaker Date: 1999-02-27 20:44:00 Subject: Re: Riving large trees Tim wrote... > > - drive a wedge an inch or so into the end Just today at a garage sale a fella sold me three very nice unused iron wedges at a buck a piece. It's easy to find wedges at garage sales and they make riving anything awfully easy. Charlie Nunemaker ++++ End of thread 25345 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25346 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58303 (thread 25346) ---- From: "Greg JONES" Date: 1999-02-23 21:44:00 Subject: WTB: Stanley #12 parts GG's, I picked up a rusty #12 at an antique shop a couple of weeks ago that I'm starting to rehabilitate. It looks like it will become a nice user once I locate a scraper blade and a brass clamping screw. Do any of you fine Galoots have either of these extra parts lying around looking for a good home? If all else fails, I'll get a Hock blade, but I really need a clamping screw. Thanks Greg Jones Fort Wayne, IN ++++ End of thread 25346 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25347 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58304 (thread 25347) ---- From: "John McCoy" Date: 1999-02-23 21:45:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder any hardwood... While we're on this subject (in other words, while we're off topic....) Mike mentioned the Chatham yard, and the amount of timber it consumed - but that yard only built around 150 warships during it's existance, or about 1 per year... On the other end of the scale, the US government, during WW1, contracted for wooden freighters to get arms & supplies to Europe. 285 of them were eventually built, in a little over a year, consuming about 1.5 million board feet of lumber a piece. About 2/3 of them actually made an Atlantic crossing, for no particularly good reason, since the war was over. None made more than 2 crossings. 233 of them were sold, en mass, for salvage in the '20s. Most of these were burnt (intentionally). The remains of about 80 hulls still exist in Mallows Bay, in Maryland, where they were intentionally sunk to prevent them floating away into the shipping lanes. John ---- Start of Message 58316 (thread 25347) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-02-23 23:08:00 Subject: Re: It's a wonder any hardwood... John McCoy wrote: > While we're on this subject (in other words, while > we're off topic....) > > > > 233 of them were sold, en mass, for salvage in the > '20s. Most of these were burnt (intentionally). > The remains of about 80 hulls still exist in Mallows > Bay, in Maryland, where they were intentionally > sunk to prevent them floating away into the > shipping lanes. > You know I didn't mention it in the great bottom feeding contest as another almost, but.... In the early 70's I clerked for a federal district judge in Norfolk. The federal court in Norfolk is an admiralty court. Every once in a while we had a ship auction. These were held on the courthouse steps and I would attend if possible.They were interesting, and it was common practice for some bidders, attended by bodyguards, to show up with large amounts of cash in a money belt. Our marshalls and clerks always worried, because for a short period of time until they went to the bank these bundles of cash were held in the court's safe....a gargantuan cast iron 1878 beauty that invited theft for the value of its decorative cast eagles, crossed flags, union shield, grapes, leaves, crowns, etc. I suspect that the foundry, undoubtedly a Northern one, was emphasizing Union victory in the War between the States, and had become a bit flamboyant in their patriotic enthusiasm. Theft would not be as difficult as one might think since the safe was conveniently mounted on cast iron wheels. In any event the government decided to sell the reserve fleet of Liberty and older freighters which it had been storing above the tideline in the James River since WWII. They were sold at a weekly auction, so many a week in the government's wisdom. The only buyers were wrecking yards. Shipwrecker's yards on the East Coast filled up quickly,. The prices dropped as the bureauacratically remorseless sales went on, oblivious to the collapsing market. Finally a sale arrived where the clerk asked for bids and received...none. There was no minimum bid. Just a charge of $150 a day if the ship was not removed within 5 days. Heck, chances were good that with the right wind and tide I could drift out of Hampton Roads...captain of my destiny and master of my fate. But I am a realistic sort of fellow and knew I would need SWMBO's support in this venture. It was with some difficulty that I tried to imagine the scene were I to bid. Approach would have to be indirect: " "Honey would you like a ship's bell to ring for dinner--I bought one that is still mounted...?" , or possibly, "Honey, remember how you always said you wanted to take the sunset harbor tour?" Though I could not fill out the details, I suspected that she would not exhibit the pleasure and pride in her husband's business acument that would seem normal. Certainly at the missed opportunity to buy the steam tractor, she had failed to show the joy of the bargain found that one would expect. Similarly she had been distinctly cold at the furniture auction when we had an opportunity to buy a mahogany table whose legs were beautifully carved and individually styled female nudes. I thought it probable they were modeled after the Greek muses. SWMBO somewhat acerbically suggested it to be more likely that they were modeled after employees of the establishment that commissioned the table. We did not bid. In any event, I let the opportunity to become a nascent shipping magnate slip, unable to conceive of a sufficently subtle and persuasive approcah to SWMBO before the hammer fell and the opportunity was lost. After a few failed sales they were sold to the State of Virginia for a dollar each. With the help of the Navy, the State moved them to a location off Virginia Beach. There, Navy demolition teams sank them to form an artifical reef to improve fishing. Oldtools content? Well maybe there isn't any, but had I bought a Liberty ship, you can bet I would have removed the wheel and bell with handtools. Incidentally, at a later farm auction in Wisconsin I did buy the horse drawn road grader, complete with harness. That I was confident SWMBO would approve of since we then had a gravel drive, but, as we men keep discovering to our unending surpise and unending regret, predictions are worthless when it comes to women. ++++ End of thread 25347 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25348 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58318 (thread 25348) ---- From: Bhermanek@a... Date: 1999-02-23 23:07:00 Subject: FS:Bill Hermanek's latest tool list CLASSIC TOOL WORKS THIS IS MY LATEST LIST OF ANTIQUE TOOLS THAT I HAVE FOR SALE. PRICES DO NOT INCLUDE SHIPPING AND HANDLING. IF YOU SEE ANYTHING YOU LIKE PLEASE CALL FIRST. YOU CAN CALL ME UP TILL 11:00 P.M. EST MONDAY THROUGH SUNDAY TOOLS for SALE 2-23-99 STANLEY TOOLS DESCRIPTION CONDITION PRICE #4-1/2 smooth plane, made in England, nice heavy casting, the answer to a Norris plane exc. $55.00 #4-1/2 smooth plane, WWII model, bakelite adjusting knob, this plane has about 2 dozen very shallow pock marks on one side otherwise its in exc. cond. Exc. $60.00 #5 jack plane, maroon finish. Probably 1960s-70s, made in USA, never used mint $35.00 #5 jack plane, WWII model exc. $30.00 #6 fore plane, very early model, low knob with bead at base, chip out of bottom of knob, ,pat. Date is in brass adjusting screw, thin casting, japanning is fair, nice example of an early Stanley plane good++ $75.00 #3 smooth plane ,in the box, never used, right out of the hardware store in the 80s, 1970s vintage, has blue japanning with black painted knob & handle, USA mint $35.00 #5-1/4, bench plane exc. $100.00 #A18, block plane, this is a great example of Stanleys aluminum line of tools exc. $255.00 #283 hand scraper, heres another super rare Stanley piece for your collection, ready to show mint $600.00 #34 catalog, 1958 exc. $50.00 #34 catalog, 1942 good++ $80.00 everlast chisel, ž" good++ $25.00 everlast chisel ,1/2" good++ $25.00 everlast chisel, ―" ,split handle, great user good+ $20.00 #208 level glasses in the box good+ $25.00 TOOLS by OTHER MAKERS English gunmetal rebate plane with ebony infill exc. $350.00 mayes patent level exc. $30.00 millers falls,irons for rabbet planes #85, never used mint $20.00 millers falls, irons for bench planes #24 & #24c, never used mint $25.00 Lufkin #60, 24" rule exc. $15.00 E.C. Stearns, jointer fence exc. $75.00 "Stanley Planes by the Numbers" The "Stanley Planes by(the)Numbers" video is for old tool collectors and users alike. Host Patrick Leach leads the viewer through the myriad of planes produced by the Stanley Rule and Level Company. From the highly prized #1 to the #444 Dovetail plane, Patrick shows how these planes are used, variations and improvements in design and what to look for when you are purchasing a plane. See the following planes in action: Bench planes,Scrapers,Scrub,Rabbet,Compass, Combination and many more . . . Plus tips on how to use these often misunderstood tools. This video features over 100 planes and is an excellent chance to see some of the rarest. Running time approx. 90 minutes. VHS/NTSC only. (Mexico/USA/Canada). BILL HERMANEK 31 WILDWOOD LA. ,SMITHTOWN, N.Y. 11787 (516) 360-1216 e-mail address: BHERMANEK@A... (ANY ITEM MAY BE RETURNED WITHIN 7 DAYS FOR A FULL REFUND) SHIPPING NOT INCLUDED PLEASE MAKE CHECKS PAYABLE TO Bill Hermanek ++++ End of thread 25348 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25349 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58328 (thread 25349) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-24 02:48:00 Subject: Auction in PA - tool haul A bit long, but humour me - it's been a while since I've scored any good stuff... Sequence: 1. The auction 2. What I got 3. Prices realized on other stuff 1. The Auction Last week, my MIL faxed us an ad from their local paper in Harrisburg, PA. The ad was for a local auction outfit, and it listed a rather interesting assortment of old tools. (MIL knows of my affliction - er - addiction - er - illness - er - interest). Here I am wondering if it might be some small country auction-type place where people don't really know what these things are - maybe I won't have much competition and maybe I can actually pick these things up cheap! There's two Stanley Gage planes in the list, as well as a #112! I really want to get a G22, just because I like the way they look. So of course, we drive out their friday night. First thing bright and early saturday a.m., FIL and I drive over to the auction house. They actually had some pretty nice stuff! And wonder of wonders, they actually had almost all of it correctly identified! And UH-OH, I overhear some of the old codgers talking to each other as they wander around - they know their stuff - competition! Rats. 2. What I got: Anyhow, the auction starts promptly at 8:30 a.m. with the tools. The short of it - here's what I landed: A pretty neat vice - not really "big", but a decent size, good quality casting and pretty darn heavy - the only thing that I can really read is "CHICAGO". Other words look like they might say something like "TRELDON" or T KELDON" or something. There's also a number "3" on the bottom. Jaws are 3" high by 7" wide. The way it works is that there's a flat "rack" with inclined teeth that engages a short mating section of teeth when the handle is turned 1/4 turn. Another 1/4 turn snugs it down. So when you back off a half-turn, it just slides in and out - quick release. When you get it where you want it, a half turn locks it in. Pretty neat - now I've gotta build a bench to mount it on and see how it works. That's OK, I was planning on a bench anyway. Any info on this would be appreciated. A pair of coffin-body smoothers - one in beautiful shape (the one I really wanted) and one totally shot (I didn't know they were gonna throw that in the lot). The good one says "New York Tool Co. Auburn NY" on the toe and a number 3. The iron says "Auburn Tool Co" in an arc, below which is a flower, under which it says "Thistle Brand Auburn NY". Beech body. Beautiful heavy tapered iron with almost two inches below the slot. Nice tight mouth. This thing saw almost no use. Only problem is that the iron/breaker combo is REALLY tight in the body - took me about 10 minutes of grunting and wiggling of the iron to get it out. The insides of the cheeks seem to need a slight shaving. Any words of advice before I gently scrape a few whiskers out? A really neat skewed rabbet. The toe says "PARKER HUBBARD & CO CONWAY MASS". The body is 1-1/2" wide, and this thing has also seen only a bit of use. In really nice shape. The really interesting thing about it is that instead of "boxing", it's got "steeling". Along the bottom right side, where one would normally expect boxing on a good quality skew rabbet, there's a piece of what can best be described as angle iron set into the body of the plane. Except it's steel. Held in with 10 countersunk slotted screws, five along the sole and five along the side. The iron is SHARP and ready to go. It needs a gentle cleaning to make it really perfect, but I've already used it to clean up some m*ch*n* cut rabbets, and I can tell this baby is a serious weapon to have in my arsenal. A Stanley #7 - low knob, V-logo on the iron, no patent dates. I've started to try to type it, but the lateral adjusting lever is wrong. I'm wondering if someone cobbled on an adjuster from a totally different make of plane, or what. The lever doesn't even look like any Stanley I've seen, and doesn't look like what's in Walters. In slightly rough shape, but a great user, as the knob and tote are absolutely perfect - not a chip anywhere! 3. Prices realized on other stuff Well - I didn't get the #112 - it went for $220 Stanley/Gage G22 - $35 (I shoulda bid that extra few bucks, but I'd already spent a bit) Stanley/Gage G5 with aluminum tote - $100 Millers-Falls #85 (PERFECT condition) - $20!! (I musta been asleep!) Stanley #36 9" level - $32.50 Windsor beader - $200 Take-down square, Southington Hardware Co, Copyright 1912 - $35 Set of patternmaker's planes, with SR&L irons - 10 small planes with various radius round soles - $80 Stanley Rule and Level Co. #62 rule - $22.50 Union Factory screw arm plow - #35 Stanley #45 body with a few parts - #60 Stanley #69 hand beader - $270 There was more, but I didn't write it all down... I think this is long enough now... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) Califon, NJ, USA wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 58358 (thread 25349) ---- From: RayTSmith@a... Date: 1999-02-24 13:53:00 Subject: Re: Auction in PA - tool haul BIll, << The insides of the cheeks seem to need a slight shaving. Any words of advice before I gently scrape a few whiskers out? >> Personally, I'd opt to lap the sides of the blade on yer SS setup, rather than cut on the body of the plane. It might be easier to work the wood down, but that area of a plane doesn't have a lot of wood left to begin with, and you'd have to be carefull not to splinter out the mouth. The iron will have to be cleaned up some anyway, and the shiny sides won't detract much from the appearance. Ray T. Smith ---- Start of Message 58361 (thread 25349) ---- From: Conan The Librarian Date: 1999-02-24 14:29:00 Subject: Re: Auction in PA - tool haul Bill wrote: > A pair of coffin-body smoothers - one in beautiful shape (the one I > really wanted) and one totally shot (I didn't know they were gonna throw > that in the lot). The good one says "New York Tool Co. Auburn NY" on the > toe and a number 3. The iron says "Auburn Tool Co" in an arc, below > which is a flower, under which it says "Thistle Brand Auburn NY". Beech > body. Beautiful heavy tapered iron with almost two inches below the > slot. Nice tight mouth. This thing saw almost no use. Only problem is > that the iron/breaker combo is REALLY tight in the body - took me about > 10 minutes of grunting and wiggling of the iron to get it out. The > insides of the cheeks seem to need a slight shaving. Any words of advice > before I gently scrape a few whiskers out? Wouldn't it be safer to take a little off the sides of the iron? Chuck Vance Woodworking projects at: http://www.swt.edu/~cv01/woodworking.html ++++ End of thread 25349 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25350 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58329 (thread 25350) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-24 02:48:00 Subject: Anteeking in PA - more tool hauling Well, after I accumulated some stuff at the auction (see other too-long post), I convinced SWMBO to let me go to a large antique barn in Hershey that I haven't been to in years. Picked up a very nice large turned lignum mallet - seems to have the word "HAITI" and something else stamped on the end. This is bigger than most I've ever seen - got it cheap, as far as I'm concerned. Also got a M-F #67 router in perfect shape - looks right out of the box - I'm assuming it's a newer type, since it really doesn't look all that old. However, it's complete with throat closer, depth stop and cutter depth adjuster. However, only has the 45-degree V-cutter. Also got a really nice Stanley #4 - type 17/18 - large diameter brass knob with diagonal knurling, black tote and knob of new design, which indicate type 18, but definitely heavier casting, which indicates type 17. Anyway, this sucker is heavier than my other #4's and is in perfect shape - 100% japan, not a nick anywhere. A few scuff marks on the sole indicate someone once tried to shave a door or something, then put it away. Ah, well - it was a good Saturday... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) Califon, NJ, USA wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ++++ End of thread 25350 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25351 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58330 (thread 25351) ---- From: "Comstock" Date: 1999-02-24 02:56:00 Subject: re Quick trip report Tim, I have a Shurley and Dietrich crosscut saw about 23 inches long with 11 on saw blade.The maddalion is marked patent Dec 11,1849 . Have not done any research on the company but can tell you that Galt is now Cambridge,Ontario. This saw was hanging on a floor joist in Halifax on a job i was doing.The nice lady said you take it i have no use for it. Bottomfeeder and tame crow that i am ,I said thank you very much . Hope this helped a bit and thanks for the chance to gloat just a little. Patrick P ++++ End of thread 25351 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25352 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58331 (thread 25352) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-24 02:54:00 Subject: Let's talk about vises Not vices, although we can talk about those too... I'm starting to get serious about planning out my first "real" woodworking bench - it's not going to be a gorgeous, birdseye maple, flame birch, beech and mahogany masterpiece, but it will be very heavy, very solid, with a laminated maple top (obtained cheep at local garage sale) and a few solid cherry members from the stack currently air-drying in my garage (previous wood gloat). I'm trying to decide what kind of vise to install on the front left. I'm pretty sure I've decided to put one of those sliding tail vises on the right end - I've got at least two catalogs that sell them. However, for the front left, I'm not sure what I want to go with. To be honest, I don't have a lot of experience actually using any of these, so I haven't been able to form a solid opinion of what I like/don't like... any helpful opinions will be most appreciated: I'm thinking of: 1. The Emmert clone - heavy, versatile, neato keen. But, somewhat non-traditional for a purely woodworking bench, and do I really "need" what it does? Also, as I understand it, requires rear jaw to be installed proud of the front of the bench to make full use of tilt/swivel features - thinking that I'll be mainly using the front vise to hold boards for planing, so this might not be what I really want. Although, it will hold boards vertially for dovetailing very nicely. Drawback: $200, somewhat complicated installation? 2. A nice big Record (Model 53D? I think? Gotta check the catalog again.) Less expensive, good quality, slightly less complicated installation(?) Still about $160, though. Ability to mount flush with front of bench? Will it hold boards vertically for dovetailing? 3. Face vice hardware (screw with guide rods). Much less expensive, I can make the faces out of any wood I want (got some nice big hunks o' cherry, also have some smaller maple). Nice, traditional look of wooden vice face, mounted flush with face of bench. Slightly more prone to wracking? Fire away! Thanks! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) Califon, NJ, USA wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 58339 (thread 25352) ---- From: "Jeff" Date: 1999-02-24 04:10:00 Subject: Re: Let's talk about vises >1. The Emmert clone - heavy, versatile, neato keen. But, somewhat >non-traditional for a purely woodworking bench, and do I really "need" >what it does? Also, as I understand it, requires rear jaw to be >installed proud of the front of the bench to make full use of >tilt/swivel features - thinking that I'll be mainly using the front vise >to hold boards for planing, so this might not be what I really want. >Although, it will hold boards vertially for dovetailing very nicely. >Drawback: $200, somewhat complicated installation? Does the opinion of the group consider Lee Valley's Tucker vice an Emmert clone? Buddyomine in Vancouver has one. Slicker than deer guts on a doorknob!! Possibly the nicest vice I've seen (or used)... but then, up here in the tool tundra, we don't have Emmerts. Downside- makes the $200 Emmert clone look reasonable! Jeff from Winnipeg ---- Start of Message 58351 (thread 25352) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-24 11:10:00 Subject: Re: Let's talk about vises >Does the opinion of the group consider Lee Valley's Tucker vice an Emmert >clone? I do. And I want one. ---- Start of Message 58436 (thread 25352) ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1999-02-25 10:42:00 Subject: Re: Let's talk about vises The vise question comes up.... William K. Taggart wrote: > ..snip .. > I'm trying to decide what kind of vise to install on the front left. I'm > pretty sure I've decided to put one of those sliding tail vises on the > right end - I've got at least two catalogs that sell them. However, for > the front left, I'm not sure what I want to go with. > > To be honest, I don't have a lot of experience actually using any of > these, so I haven't been able to form a solid opinion of what I > like/don't like... any helpful opinions will be most appreciated: > > I'm thinking of: > .. snip How about making yourself a truly galoot wooden vise? Paul Hasluck's 'Handyman's Book shows wooden vises, and discusses 'improved' versions of non-racking ! designs. I, too am in the 'considering' stage of a new bench top, and though I have a 'spare' Record 52 1/2 I'm starting to think that an all wood design is friendlier to tools. It was seeing Tom Johnson's face vise (is it finished yet, Tom?) that sent me down this path. You can compromise with a metal plain screw of course.... Richard Wilson ---- Start of Message 58445 (thread 25352) ---- From: Chuck Phillips Date: 1999-02-25 14:20:00 Subject: Re: Let's talk about vises Tough call, Bill. For my purposes, it kind of boils down to how much money you are willing to spend. The Emmert has a huge cool factor, but I can't bring myself to pay that much yet. (Insulation for the HoTP has to come first.) If you are trying to create a period appearance in your shop, you'll probably be going the build-your-own route. If you're more interested in just holding the wood, and you don't need to do so at funky angles, the quick-release metal vise is probably the best route. Rather than buying a brand new Record, look around at flea markets/tool swaps/usual bottomfeeder sources. I picked up a pristine Wilton for US$80 this weekend. No idea how old it is, but it works real nice. Of course, if you want to go real cheap, you can have the Home Despot POS that I yanked off my bench to make room for the aforementioned Wilton... Chuck Phillips Having fun in the House of a Thousand Projects. ---- Start of Message 58584 (thread 25352) ---- From: Mark Balmer Date: 1999-02-27 07:46:00 Subject: Re: Let's talk about vises I finished a "Klausz" style bench last fall using a face vise (instead of shoulder vise) and tail vise. Also finished a bench for kids made with Fir slab top/trestle base/ 4 face vises/round dogs. My $0.02 on vises (and benches) is: Love the tail vise. Mine uses the Woodcrafters metal guts and is straight, not 'L' shaped. Kind of a hybrid of like vises that appear in the Workbench book. Takes time and lots of measuring/fitting to build and install (for me anyway). If time is important, I've not seen any difference in using the tail vise and using the Records with the pop-up dog as a tail vise. The smaller Record has plenty of ummph and more than enough reach to act as a tail vise. But I still love my way-cool black Walnut tail vise with traditional square wood dogs. My face vise is wood with metal guides and screw from Woodcrafters- the German hardware with the quick-release nut. It works, but I'm not thrilled . The hardware is pretty well made, and after some tuning it works smoothly, but due to the nature of the beast there is just too much top-to-bottom and side-to-side racking when pressure is applied. On the kid's bench I used the smaller Record vises. I really like these. They are well made, work slick, and are relatively easy to install. I added wooden jaw protectors. The racking is well within my tolerance. Supported the local Woodcrafters by buying one of the Records from them. The other 3 came from Home *, where they were much less expensive. I dinked with some of the low-end clones and thought they were crap. There might be a good medium-quality vise out there. Your vise is going to see alot of use, and is not a place to cut corners (IMHO). If I were to do it again I would go with a Shoulder vise on my bench. My second choice would be a big Record (although the Record is still first choice for the kids bench). The shoulder vise lets you work on the end of a board, and with tapered profiles. It's probably just as good at holding small boards for planing/drilling/etc as a face vise. Cross-cutting boards can probably be done better with a bench hook than a vise anyway. Most joint cutting is done on the end of the board, which is where a shoulder vise shines. You could do this by using a clamp to hold the board against the front of the bench- but that's not the point since you can do just about anything with clamps if you work at it long enough. One disadvantage is that you can't hold a piece so the end sticks out past the end of the bench- which is handy at times. It also takes up more room, which is one of the reasons I went with a face vise. There's probably a good reason all those old vises (leg vise, twin-screw face vise, shoulder vise) center the pressure and allow the board to extend below the bench. With a shoulder vise, I'ld be really tempted to use a Record as a tail vise. It's quicker, more adjustable, easier to install, and gives you a face vise for those time you need it. That's logic. My heart would yearn for a true tail vise. BTW. The round dogs work well so far. Easy to install and the holes can be used with a holdfast. I've been pleasantly suprised. I spent a lot of time and nice material building my first bench because I thought it would be better to do it once. I wanted a nice, traditional bench and figured I'ld never get around to finishing one if I built one just-to-get-by first. In the end it took a lot longer to finish than planned and was a major pain to build without an existing bench to work on. In hindsight, I should have built the quick bench first- slab top, round dogs, and a Record in the corner that acts as both face and tail vise. Takes probably a tenth (or less!) of the time of the tool-trayed, dovetailed, tail-vised bench of my dreams. Having the first bench would have really reduced the time to make the dream bench and provides a test bed for different ideas. It's funny how I almost like the kids bench better than my own- it works just as well, doesn't complain if I slop a drip or two of finish on it, and I don't spend nearly the energy worrying about putting a nick in it. It's really nice to have two spaces - one for focused handtool work and the other for assembly, glueing, finishing, and rough stuff. This was suppose to be a single paragraph asking the original poster to consider a shoulder vise (or going with the Record). Sorry for being long winded, I just wanted to add some of the things I wish I'ld more seriously considered when starting down the path to my first workbench. mark ---- Start of Message 58587 (thread 25352) ---- From: Sutton Date: 1999-02-27 12:58:00 Subject: Re: Let's talk about vises >It's funny how I almost like the kids bench >better than my own- it works just as well, doesn't complain if I slop >a drip or two of finish on it, and I don't spend nearly the energy >worrying about putting a nick in it. It's really nice to have two >spaces - one for focused handtool work and the other for assembly, >glueing, finishing, and rough stuff. First of all, thanks to Mark for the teasure chest of vise research and suggestions. I just had to comment on this paragraph though, it seems to be a recurring theme. Are you guys really building benches that you treat as fine furniture? I'd have to say I feel blessed my first real bench was 50 years old when I got it. Every nick or drip I put on it is just another nick or drip, just another chapter in the life story of this bench. FWIW, I prefer old cars for the same reason. I've never given a second thought to where the first scratch would come from. David *********** David Sutton Sutton Studios 1532 Crain St. Evanston, IL 60202 suttons@e... http://www.suttonstudios.com ---- Start of Message 58738 (thread 25352) ---- From: James Foster Date: 1999-03-01 18:47:00 Subject: Re: Let's talk about vises "William K. Taggart" wrote: > 2. A nice big Record (Model 53D? I think? Gotta check the catalog > again.) Less expensive, good quality, slightly less complicated > installation(?) Still about $160, though. Ability to mount flush with > front of bench? Will it hold boards vertically for dovetailing? > This is the route I went with, and I'm quite happy with it. Wm. Alden has them for a better price. Flush with bench? Sure. I embedded the rear jaw into the bench apron and routed (#71) out the front jaw face board to fit slightly above, and be a bit longer than, the metal jaw. When the dog is lowered it's a bit below the wooden jaw liner. I've got a couple of holes for dowels in the apron to help support long boards, or will clamp them to the apron. Holding for dovetailing? This is more of a problem. I'd have to give it a "kinda" for this because the guide rods keep you from getting the piece very far into the jaws. This was one of the reasons I put in the Veritas twin screw tail vise - it handles this task very well. Between the two of them they seem to be a pretty good combination. Oh, some people don't see the quick adjust feature of the Records as very useful, but I use it all the time. ++++ End of thread 25352 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25353 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58333 (thread 25353) ---- From: georgew@m... Date: 1999-02-24 00:07:00 Subject: Kingwood Galoots, Picked up a hunk of Kingwood at a Rockler's, aka Woodworkers Supply, when I was visiting my daughter in San Diego over Christmas. Finally got around to turning it this morning (fountain pen, not a Galoot lathe but a Galoot product). Smells and looks a lot like Cocabolo (Gunterman spelling, on a flight to New Yeck and enjoying the fruit of the grape. See my earlier post re: cork oak) Does anyone have any experience with this? Is it a relative of cocobola? George ---- Start of Message 58366 (thread 25353) ---- From: Aaron R Ionta Date: 1999-02-24 16:15:00 Subject: Re: Kingwood Intresting that you should Mention John G. he may have a few things to say about Kingswood? Aaron taak stiring te pot ! :) georgew@m... wrote: > Galoots, > Picked up a hunk of Kingwood at a Rockler's, aka Woodworkers Supply, when I was visiting my daughter in San Diego > over Christmas. Finally got around to turning it this morning (fountain pen, not a Galoot lathe but a Galoot product). > Smells and looks a lot like Cocabolo (Gunterman spelling, on a flight to New Yeck and enjoying the fruit of the grape. > See my earlier post re: cork oak) Does anyone have any experience with this? Is it a relative of cocobola? > George > > -- ---- Start of Message 58408 (thread 25353) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-24 23:52:00 Subject: Re: Kingwood At 11:15 AM -0500 2/24/99, Aaron R Ionta wrote: > G. he may have a few things to say about Kingswood? a truly beautifull wood to loo at, but I got a NASTY contact rash from working it . I actually drove to the Apothecary at 2 AM for some Benadryl to try and relieve some of it. ---- Start of Message 58412 (thread 25353) ---- From: georgew@m... Date: 1999-02-25 01:00:00 Subject: Re: Kingwood John, Your right about pretty to look at. Penny oohed and aahed so it so much when I brought it out of the shop, I thought that it was gone from me forever, and she is used to seeing some pretty fancy pens (Ever see an elk antler one? Talk about dramatic!) Guess I lucked out on the dermatitis The stuff is hard to turn and turns the shop purple. George At 11:15 AM -0500 2/24/99, Aaron R Ionta wrote: > G. he may have a few things to say about Kingswood? a truly beautifull wood to loo at, but I got a NASTY contact rash from working it . I actually drove to the Apothecary at 2 AM for some Benadryl to try and relieve some of it. ++++ End of thread 25353 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25354 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58335 (thread 25354) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-02-24 03:25:00 Subject: WTB: Stanley #60 1/2 or 65 1/2 Greetings, I have a friend of mine who has charged me with the task of finding him a low angle block plane. Particularly, a Stanley #60 1/2 or a Stanley #65 1/2. Anyone out there got one they want to part with? Send me the details and I will get with my friend and make the deal. I would personally like to find one of a sweetheart vintage - then I could keep the SW one and sell him mine. Let me know what you got! Thanks, Keith Rucker Tifton, GA ++++ End of thread 25354 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25355 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58338 (thread 25355) ---- From: "HALL, HAYWARD" Date: 1999-02-24 04:10:00 Subject: FW: Ripping Drift and NIB Dating > Hi Brent and all G's, > > Now that you mention it, I did notice the same thing with my 5p rip. > About the middle of the blade. I assumed it was a high tooth/teeth... > Upon further reflecting I am wondering if that is the point in which the > saw levels out in the cut, and the most teeth grab the largest area of > wood. It would have to do with the angle of attack and all. I think we > all rock the saw a little (ok, I do) when cutting, so there is bound to be > some variation in amout of teeth cutting at once. It seems 2b more > pronounce with fewer tpi. > > My conjecture anyway. > > Hayward Hall > Ripping a big one in Springfield MO > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brent D. Beach [SMTP:ub359@v...] > Sent: Monday, February 08, 1999 10:02 PM > To: OLDTOOLS@l... > Subject: Ripping Drift and NIB Dating > > As another observations about rip saws, my others all have some set > (they came that way). They are good tapered D 8s. When ripping > there is always a grab about halfway down the saw where it just seems > to get much harder to push. The saw decelerates to a near stop over > a space of an inch or two. Measuring the saw thickness, the problem > appears at about the point at which the saw thickness reaches the > maximum. > ++++ End of thread 25355 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25356 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58341 (thread 25356) ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1999-02-24 04:59:00 Subject: FS: Scraper Plane I have a Stanley #112 scraper plane for sale. Early model (early form casting, 1858 patent dates on rearward adjustment knob). Jpeg photos available upon request. $160. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Andrew Barss Department of Linguistics, University of Arizona Communications 304B, 621-6897 http://www.u.arizona.edu/~barss <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ++++ End of thread 25356 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25357 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58349 (thread 25357) ---- From: Andrew Tune Date: 1999-02-24 20:58:00 Subject: ...wait for it... shop walls! Galoots: Yes, me again, bouyed by the experience of my thread on workshop floors. My new shop (that's an anticipatory gloat) will be of brick construction but I want it to be as dry as possible (obviously). I've been told the best thing to do is line it with plasterboard (drywall in the USA, I believe) which is very hygroscopic, easy, cheap, and not unattractive. But it's also not particularly galootish either, nor particularly functional. I suppose in terms of pure functionality, peg-board would be the ultimate, but it won't help with moisture and it's ugly and artificial to boot! Please, don't anyone suggest hand-bored peg-board made from solid mahogany... but if there's a sensible alternative which would deal well with fluctuations in local humidity (i.e. plenty hygroscopic) I'd love to know. ---- Start of Message 58355 (thread 25357) ---- From: "DuPrie, James" Date: 1999-02-24 13:22:00 Subject: RE: ...wait for it... shop walls! My plan is to use either shiplap or tongue and groove pine. I just scored about a thousand board feet of it for Real Cheap from thelocal University sawmill. Its rough, but I figure I'll surface one side, do the edges and put it up. Over the next 3-4 years, I should be able to get enough to cover all of the walls.... --JD > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Tune [mailto:Andrew.Tune@t...] > Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 3:59 PM > To: oldtools@l... > Subject: ...wait for it... shop walls! > > > Galoots: > > Yes, me again, bouyed by the experience of my thread on > workshop floors. > > My new shop (that's an anticipatory gloat) will be of brick > construction > but I want it to be as dry as possible (obviously). I've > been told the > best thing to do is line it with plasterboard (drywall in the > USA, I believe) > which is very hygroscopic, easy, cheap, and not unattractive. > > But it's also not particularly galootish either, nor > particularly functional. > I suppose in terms of pure functionality, peg-board would be > the ultimate, > but it won't help with moisture and it's ugly and artificial to boot! > > Please, don't anyone suggest hand-bored peg-board made from > solid mahogany... > but if there's a sensible alternative which would deal well > with fluctuations > in local humidity (i.e. plenty hygroscopic) I'd love to know. > -- > Andrew Tune > Mobile: 0419 654 321 > > -- > > ---- Start of Message 58386 (thread 25357) ---- From: Carl W Muhlhausen Date: 1999-02-24 18:04:00 Subject: Re: ...wait for it... shop walls! Andrew Tune wrote: > > Galoots: > > Yes, me again, bouyed by the experience of my thread on workshop floors. > > My new shop (that's an anticipatory gloat) will be of brick construction > but I want it to be as dry as possible (obviously). I've been told the > best thing to do is line it with plasterboard (drywall in the USA, I believe) > which is very hygroscopic, easy, cheap, and not unattractive. > > But it's also not particularly galootish either, nor particularly functional. > I suppose in terms of pure functionality, peg-board would be the ultimate, > but it won't help with moisture and it's ugly and artificial to boot! > > Please, don't anyone suggest hand-bored peg-board made from solid mahogany... > but if there's a sensible alternative which would deal well with fluctuations > in local humidity (i.e. plenty hygroscopic) I'd love to know. > -- > Andrew Tune Mobile: 0419 654 321 I don't know how hoomid it gets in your part of down under, but here in the tropics of NJ (3-4 mos. out of the year, anyway), I run a dehumidifier. It does consume electrons, but I've got a lot of money "invested" in rust-prone tools and I consider the dehumidifier an essential shop item. I left the walls of my basement as bare cement block and mounted pegboard behind my bench on the walls. It might not be very galootish, but it's very convenient. If I had it to do over again, I would paint the walls with a water resistant paint and put and epoxy paint on the floor, before I moved the shop into the basement. I would have also planned the wiring and lighting a little more carefully than the "add a circuit and a few more lights every once in a while" method I used. I also would have built the shop area on the other side of the basement from my furnace, but this is what happens when you don't plan ahead. Now it's too late. Carl Carl Muhlhausen ledzep@a... AT&T Labs 732.420.2539 200 Laurel Ave. S. - Rm C5-3W01 Middletown, NJ 07748 Personal Web Page at: http://geocities.com/Heartland/Acres/1722 ++++ End of thread 25357 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25358 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58350 (thread 25358) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-02-24 10:45:00 Subject: Re: Letter From The Front - a plane Did you ever have a user tool that became a personal collectable? I have a t15 #3. It wasn't the first plane I owned, but the first one I ever really fell in love with. It was a friend's grandfather's plane and she gave it to me one day. It was the first time I ever saw the sweetheart mark It cut like a dream right off (as soon as I cleaned it up). Then I started to like it and cleaned it up a little more. I really learned how to sharpen a blade with that plane. Wasted a little steel getting there, but not too awful much since then and there is still a good inch and a quarter below the hole. When (the then) new FWW was getting popular several articles came out on planes, of course. I just barely understood what they were talking about and had never been close to a tuned tool. But inside every one of us is a memory or feeling of the Old Master and his beautiful tools. We all strive for it in some way. I knew it could be better. I polished the sole in the bad old way with plate glass and the leftovers from someones telescope grinding project I'd got at a yard sale (loose grit). Not your quicklap experience, to be blunt. Each new trick I learned was used first on that 3. It just got better and better. I hauled it out to jobsites in my youth. Used it hard. Piled up shavings on construction and finish work alike. But even then I was always worried about it. I made a wooden shoe out of soft pine to protect the sole. Had a tendancy to watch for it out of the corner of my eye as the work went on. Somehow it always made it home in one piece. As I got older and more tools came my way it still held the number one spot against all comers because I knew it so well. But it got to be such a concern that I would hurt it, that I put it aside one day. It stayed in a glass cabinet for several years. Then I couldn't stand that any longer because I worried about rust and neglect so it went back into the lineup. There was one more stay in the cabinet, but it's back in my arsenal again now. The hard collectors description of it would only read Stanley t15 #3 - 70% japan - refinished tote and knob but wood is intact Doesn't sound like much, does it? It's not for sale yours Scott ++++ End of thread 25358 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25359 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58352 (thread 25359) ---- From: Phil and Debbie Koontz Date: 1999-02-24 02:02:00 Subject: Hewing axes Well, acute ones; I got out my hewing hatchets this week. One of them needed a handle, and I wasn't quite sure how I wanted the handle to fit. But let's start with a little digression. When I think of hewing axes (hatchets?), I think of George Sturt's excellent observation of the woodworker's craft, The Wheel Wright's Shop. It's about the English wagon making and repair business that he inherited from his father in the late 1800s. There is a classic picture near the middle of the book of the left-handed wheelwright posing with his principal tool, a left handed hewing axe. Sturt made clear that much of the work was done with edge tools; mainly drawknife and axe. He describes winter days of chopping felloes by candle light, and of chopping and brushing the elm stocks (wheel hubs) to size and shape as the wood cured for seven years. He also mentions in several places the precision work and glass smooth finish the wrights could produce with an axe. Another book about the wood worker's trade (I think it was one of Eric Sloane's; sorry to be so vague), mentions a block knife as another of the main tools. I have never seen one, by the way; I wonder what happened to them? Anyway, I have two nice heads for hewing axes. Both were freebies, one is from a good friend who has died, so it has a special place in my heart, even though I never have been able to get it to work very well. Both are Kent pattern axes, and one of them is helved for what I think of as a right handed axe. That is, the bevel is on the right side as I chop. The handle is about 10 inches measured from the head, and slightly offset. When I started to put the new handle on my other axe head, I thought carefully about how long I want it, which direction it will go, and the general hang of the head. As most of you no doubt realize, the handle can go on these either way. This way makes it right handed, that makes it left handed. However, I'm not real sure which is which. Does everyone use their hewing axe with the flat side toward the work? (I remember some uhh, division of opinion, when we were talking about striking knives, as to which side goes against the work....) And how long are the handles? These are small axes, about 2 pounds. But my framing axe has about the same weight and a longer handle--18" or so instead of 10". Some of the traditional hewing axes were apparently used with very short handles; is there a difference in the applications? An under appreciated tool, IMHO. Both of mine have laminated edges and striking surfaces, and the "new" one has a stamp that says "Hand Made Drop Forged"; probably fairly recent, as these things go... Phil Koontz Who would have a pretty hard time making an iron tire out of 3/4" by 3" bar stock. I really have to admire those guys. ++++ End of thread 25359 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25360 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58353 (thread 25360) ---- From: David Strommen Date: 1999-02-24 08:04:00 Subject: Wood gloat Fellow Galoots! A coworker the other day mentioned to anyone interested that she had some firewood that was free for the taking. Being a bottom feeder at heart I drove over to take a look. The firewood turned out to be cherry that had the darkest color I have ever seen! They built this new house and PAID someone to cut this beautiful 35" diameter tree into 20" chunks! UGH! Think I need to lay down....... Well I now have about 20 of these chunks sitting in my driveway. The tree was live when cut - 2-3 months ago. Question is what do I do to keep them from checking? (some are checking already) How long do I need to let them season? Should I split them first - cut them into lumber and then let them season? Anyone have some ideas for 20" projects? I will use some of it for the kaleidoscopes I make but this is about a 20 year supply! Any help will be appreciated! Dave Strommen (teaching tomorrows galoots) Elkhart, IN ---- Start of Message 58365 (thread 25360) ---- From: eoh@k... Date: 1999-02-24 15:33:00 Subject: ww activities the first week of July? was: Re: Wood gloat From: Esther Heller Dave would like to know: > Anyone have some ideas for 20" projects? I will use some of it for the > kaleidoscopes I make but this is about a 20 year supply! Well everyone knows I am a Dunbar shill (unpaid, no financial connection, etc.) But I will point out that 20" is a fine length for stool legs. Mike had a recent article in one of the mags on making a windsor stool, I think he also has something similar in his turning for furniture book. Do you have any use for a set of stools? Given the right lathe you can also turn the seats, but I would take the legging up from Mike's chairs (make the stretcher assembly 1/4" too big in both horizontal directions, pound legs into angled holes in seat, wedge from the top. Skip the wet and dry stuff in the book, use dry for everything and egg shaped tenons.) I will be coming through your way going to or coming from Washington state for a family reunion in late June if you _really_ need to clear out your driveway..... ;-) ;-) Seriously, I will be leaving WA around July 1 and don;t have to be back to upstate NY until July 10 or so, anybody care to recommend any ww classes anywhere across the northern half of the US on the weekend of July 4 or the following week? We have a plant shutdown the week after July 4 so I _have_ to be on vacation. Esther eoh@k... ---- Start of Message 58415 (thread 25360) ---- From: David Strommen Date: 1999-02-24 18:36:00 Subject: Re:wood gloat Ester, Don't need any stools but that does give me an idea. I have always wanted to make a Sam Maloof style rocking chair -the kind with the carved seat! Lots of work in that to make a galoot happy! That should only take me a few months.....ok .......a few years.....ok....... of thinking about it before I start. ;^) I may have to add a little wood but most of it I bet I could get from these chunks. Thanks for the idea! Dave Strommen (teaching tomorrows Galoots) Elkhart, IN > From: Esther Heller > > Dave would like to know: > > Anyone have some ideas for 20" projects? I will use some of it for the > > kaleidoscopes I make but this is about a 20 year supply! > > Well everyone knows I am a Dunbar shill (unpaid, no financial > connection, etc.) But I will point out that 20" is a fine length > for stool legs. Mike had a recent article in one of the mags > on making a windsor stool, I think he also has something similar > in his turning for furniture book. Do you have any use for a set of > stools? Given the right lathe you can also turn the seats, but > I would take the legging up from Mike's chairs (make the stretcher > assembly 1/4" too big in both horizontal directions, pound legs > into angled holes in seat, wedge from the top. Skip the wet and dry > stuff in the book, use dry for everything and egg shaped tenons.) > > I will be coming through your way going to or coming from Washington > state for a family reunion in late June if you _really_ need to > clear out your driveway..... ;-) ;-) Seriously, I will be > leaving WA around July 1 and don;t have to be back to upstate > NY until July 10 or so, anybody care to recommend any ww classes > anywhere across the northern half of the US on the weekend of July > 4 or the following week? We have a plant shutdown the week after > July 4 so I _have_ to be on vacation. > > Esther eoh@k... > ++++ End of thread 25360 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25361 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58354 (thread 25361) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-24 08:04:00 Subject: The Village Carpenter (long) Esteemed Galoots, I have just been reading "The Village Carpenter" by Walter Rose. It's a lovely evocative description of Engish village life (as well as craft) from the 1850's and I thoroughly recommend it a a wonderful read. (ISBN 0-941533-18-2) My intention in this post is to extract some of the more "OLDTOOL" relevant facts, and present them for discussion... * Lines for sawing logs were made with a chalk line. However the chalk line was sometimes coloured with lampblack, not chalk. * there is GREAT emphasis on saw sharpening. Either the steel was soft, or sharp saws were *REALLY* important (no power saws, remember) * pit saws were sharpened before every log (the top-man sharpened while the bottom man got the log ready) * There is a reference to "graduated sharpening" "I learnt from them that teeth should not all be shaped at the same pitch: their method was to file those at the point, or end, at an angle of about 60 degrees, and those at the heel at about 30 degrees. All the other teeth between graduated to these two standards" * The list of tools carried to a site in a bag includes a saw sharpening file. * His grandfather went to saw a beam about which the "fulltime" sawyers had complained. "He sharpened his handsaw overnight, rose early, walked there, and sawed it down himself by hand" * work-rates are REALLY high * a girl's "travelling clothes box". "... it involved planing all the wood, and dovetailing each angle. THe finished box was fitted with lock and key and iron handles at each end". This was "reckoned a day's work" * "The making of a gate was considered a day's work for a qualified carpenter, and was expected to be done in the ten hours which at that time constituted a day of labour. No one ever suggested that it was possible to make one in less time. The oak was hard with long seasoning, and all the work - planing, morticing, tenoning and fitting in of the rails - was done by hand" * P*w*r Tools "This is by no means an unrelieved calamity; no carpeneter would wish to revert to the toil of past days, the work at the saw-pit and the preparation of such simple things as floor boards by hand" * He considers the tools he is using (circa 1880) to be far better than tools of older times. But he admires the skills of earlier carpenter; he reckons their work better, yet their tools worse (he is talking about fine furniture, so perhaps this is just a case of carpenter Vs cabinet maker) * "To examine the woodwork of past days is to be impressed with the fact that in spite of inferior tools a high degree of excellence was attained" * "... long and forgotten maker. The limitations of his tools are revealed by long slight undulations on the surface of the boards, the finish of his imperfect plane" * Sharpening stone were poor. The introduction of imported Washita in 1889 stones was a revelation. "It is easier to sharpen a true edge on a wide tool with a narrow stone than with a wide one". He argues this because it's difficult to keep a wide stone flat across it's width. I hope that these clippings are of interest to the list. These bare facts are of interest to us galoots, but the book as a whole is far more than that. I loved it. Bugbear. ++++ End of thread 25361 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25362 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58360 (thread 25362) ---- From: SANFORD MOSS Date: 1999-02-24 14:24:00 Subject: FS: Post-MI Jubilee GG's, Here is today's version of my forsale list--a group of tools that, three weeks ago, I wouldn't have guessed I'd have! Most of these tools have been cleaned only by brushing them off with mineral spirits. The thumbnail descriptions are meant to guide. More complete descriptions can be found on the weblinks in the descriptions, or through my complete sales list at http://134.88.12.107/tools/tfs.htm Thanks very much to all of you for your kind words over the past three weeks, both in email messages and in cards. My wife and I really appreciate them. They're the best medicine I've had. METALLIC PLANES Item P1 - Stanley No 2 Smooth Plane ________________________$350.00 >From the 1930S, this plane has no apologies. Guess what this would bring on *B*y! Fine. See it at http://134.88.16.130/p1.htm Item P2 - Stanley No. 3 Smooth Plane. Type 12._____________$65.00 This fella has 100% japanning in its 3 patent casting, with no patent dates on the lateral lever, and the larger brass blade adjustment knob. Great wood & only some fine pitting at top of later blade. Fine. See it at http://134.88.16.130/p2.htm Item P3 - Stanley No. 4 Smooth Plane. Type 11. ________$20.00 Here is a rejapping project, but the rest of this is quite nice with a 2 patent date body; no cracks or pitting; nice low knob and a chip-free tote, V-logo long blade. Except for japanning, Good+. See it at http://134.88.16.130/p3.htm Item P4 - Stanley No. 4 Smooth Plane. Type 16. ________$30.00 Nice long SW logo blade, 100% japanning in the pristine body, and nice unchipped or cracked wood that suffer only a few tiny paint spatters. Lever cap has lost most of its nickel plating. Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/p4.htm Item P5 - Craftsman Smooth Plane. No. 4 size.__________$15.00 Everything about the plane is fine, except some paint splatters on the tote, which also has a slightly crazed finish. Even so, I'd call it Fine. See it at http://134.88.16.130/p5.htm Item P6 - Stanley No. 5 Jack Plane. Type 19.____________$35.00 This plane has the thickly varnished rosewood tote and knob, brass blade adjuster, and full nickeled lever cap with orange infill. It has complete japanning. Fine. See it at http://134.88.16.130/p6.htm Item P7 - Stanley No. 3 Smooth Plane. Type 18. _______$35.00 1946-48 war recovery plane with black-painted wood (some paint chipped and missing here). All else is nice. Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/p7.htm Item P8 - Stanley No 6 Fore Plane. Type 17______________$55.00 Some pitting and blistering on the lever cap nickel, and just a bit of japanning flaked off at the heel else this plane is in top condition. Unusual twisted lever. Good+. See it at http://134.88.16.130/p8.htm Item P9 - Stanley No. 6C Corrugated Fore Plane. Type 13 $50.00 This pups knob is marred only by a couple of small cracks at the base. The plane is clean, with no rust or pitting and has a small chip out of the back of the mouth. Retouched japanning?. Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/p9.htm Item P10 - Stanley No. 7C. Corrugated Jointer Plane. Type 9.__$50.00 A user dating from 1902-1907, having a 2 patent date body, no frog adjuster, B casting marks, and a Q-logo blade. 40% of its japanning, good knob, and the tote has a tightly repaired crack. Better than it sounds, this will tune up to be a real workhorse.. Good at least. See it at http://134.88.16.130/p10.htm Item P11 - Stanley No. 10. Jack Rabbet Plane._____________$150.00 After seeing the sheared horn from the tote, and about 60% of the original japanning left in the body, all else is spiffy This is an older No. 10, with characteristics that date it to 1892. Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/p11.htm Item P12 - Stanley No 18. Knuckle Joint Block Plane ______$35.00 Cept for missing nickel on the lever cap the rest of the plane is fine, with 100% japanning, a clean shiny BB logo blade, and a smoothly working mouth adjuster . It is a type 15 (1936-42), Good+ at least. . See it at http://134.88.16.130/p12.htm Item P13 - Stanley No. 60 1/2 Low Angle Block Plane.______$45.00 Some japanning is missing from the back of the lever cap, but the BB logo blade is full, sharp and shiny, and the plane is generally is in crispy condition! Good+ at least. See it at http://134.88.16.130/p13.htm Item P14 - Stanley No. 79 Side Rabbet Plane ______________$70.00 This earlier type has one cutter carries the SW logo, while the other has the notched rectangle logo. The plane is clean, without rust or pitting. There is an added nickel plated brass depth stop & fence on the back side of this plane that can be easily removed. Good+. See it at http://134.88.16.130/p14.htm WOODEN PLANES Item P15 - Tongue Plane, marked "A B"__________________$15.00 This hefty beech plane is deeply stamped "A" and "B" on the toe, with no other marks on it. The plane is set for cutting a 3/8" tongue 3/8" from an edge on a board up to 1/1/2" wide. The sole, wedge, and blade are in great condition. Good+ at least See it at http://134.88.16.130/p15.htm DRAWKNIVES AND SHAVES Item P18 - Millers Falls No. 1, "cigar" Spokeshave _____$60.00 This one is probably the nicest one I have owned over the past three years. Nearly all of the original red paint is in the throat, good wood and complete nickel. A great shave at half the price of the princely web dealers. Fine See it at http://134.88.16.130/p18.htm Item P19 - Witherby 7" Drawknife. _____________________$22.00 This nice tight-handled drawknife is in good condition, with some patina, but no pitting. A great maker, a strong mark, and a fine tool. Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/p19.htm Item P20 - Witherby 8" Drawknife. _____________________$22.00 While the turned decoration on the handles of this drawknife are slightly different from that of Item P21 and the blade is an inch longer, the mark and the condition are the same. Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/p20.htm Item P21 - Pexto 8" Drawkife with folding handles.______$30.00 Here is a folding handle drawknife, that is little used, and just needs a honing to go to work. The handles can be cleaned, but they are really in nice condition. The blade on this one was forged with a very slight bow to it, making for a real wood hogger. The size allows good control. Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/p21.htm Item P22 - J. Bishop Draw Knife__________________________$16.00 This is a graceful, somewhat different, drawing knife with an 11" blade that looks hand forged. "J.Bishop, Cast Steel" is deeply hot stamped into the steel. The handles are tight, and turned wit some decoration. Good. See it at http://134.88.16.130/p22.htm BORING TOOLS Item B1 - North Bros Yankee #30A Ratchet Screwdriver, IOB. $35.00 Apre-WWII Yankee ratchet screwdriver and its proper box. Single, somewhat battered flat bit. The driver is in very nice condition, with a maroon handle with few dings, and virtually all of the nickel plating. Both box and tool are Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/B1.htm Item B2 -Lever Chuck 8" Sweep Brace. ______________________$25.00 This a Taylor 1836 patent lever chuck brace as manufactured in both Hebron and New London, Conn. This one is unmarked, but has matching machine part numbers and the typical brass screw in the top handle, and an unusual brass ferrule. It is in nice condition, and the lever chuck works well. It is in at least Good condition. See it at http://134.88.16.130/B2.htm Item B3 - Goodell-Pratt No. 111 Spiral Screwdriver. _______$20.00 This is a very nice example of Goodell-Pratt's No. 111 Spiral Screwdriver. It has a great handle with original finish intact, and shiny complete nickel on the shaft with the G-P "Toolsmith" mark. No bits included. Fine. See it at http://134.88.16.130/B3.htm Item B4 - P.S. & W. No. 1202 10" Bit Brace.________________$25.00 This Peck, Stow & Wilcox brace features a great lignum vitae top handle and a rosewood wrist handle; a June 9, 1895 patent date on the massive two-jaw chuck, and an 1887 date on the ratchet. Its a great old brace. Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/B4.htm Item B5 - Samson (Pexto) No 3310,10" brace. _______________$15.00 The Samson name of the Pexto people is stamped here. This one has 95% of its nickel plating, which has dulled. The 2-jaw chuck and ratchet work smoothly. The stained hardwood handles are both clean and in good condition. Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/B5.htm Item B6 - Yankee 130A Ratchet Screwdriver, with box._______$20.00 This Yankee screwdriver with the return spring dates from just after the Stanley takeover of North Bros about 1946. But the label on the box is pure North Bros. The screwdriver comes with one flat bit. Its nickel plating is complete, but there are some abrasions from the paint on the handle. The box is missing one side and both ends of the lid. The top flap, however, retains a nice, complete label. Tool - Good+. Box Fair. See it at http://134.88.16.130/B6.htm Item B7 -Millers Falls #33 Ratchet Bit Brace._____________$17.00 This brace has the older, pewter, rings fixing the wrist handle, and very nice dark rosewood on both handles. This one has better than 50% of its original nickel plating and works smoothly. In the 8" size, this is a great user as well as an old tool. Good+. See it at http://134.88.16.130/B7.htm Item B8 - Otis Smith Patented Washer Cutter.______________$15.00 Patented in 1865 by the inventive Otis Smith, this washer cutter is in excellent condition. Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/B8.htm Item B9 - Goodell-Pratt No. 7 Breast Drill _______________$15.00 the speed change mechanism here consists of a knurled knob shifter on the shaft. Like many that you find, this one is missing its auxiliary handle. But most of the original paint is present on the frame and the gear wheel, including much of the decal and gold striping. The drill works smoothly, with no missing or broken teeth. Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/B9.htm Item B10 - Pedal Dental Engine.________________________$325.00 This Nineteenth Century dental drill features a base, fly wheel, and pedal that are magnificent in their condition, ornamentation and operation. Except for a little rust at the base, 95% of of the original japanning and painted decoration are present. The belt is missing from this tool, as is the top pulley that provides rotational movement to the flexible drive shaft. This would be a spectacular addition to any collection of boring tools. Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/B10.htm Item B11 - Old Breast Drill ____________________________$10.00 Here is an old breast drill with solid large gear wheel and iron handle riveted to it. This is simple and well used, but interesting. Good-- See it at http://134.88.16.130/B11.htm Item B12 - Fray-type Tool Handle (unmarked. ____________$15.00 With its typical "winged" chuck, and complete set of 8 original tools, this unmarked tool handle is in nice condition, suffering only loss of the nickel plating from the chuck. The tools have been used, but will clean up nicely. Good+. See it at http://134.88.16.130/B12.htm LAYOUT AND MEASURING Item R1 - Stanley Key Tape ______________________________$10.00 Straight out of a 1960's hardware store this is a three foot, mylar coated Stanley key tape (#30-141), new and unopened in its original package. Fine. Item R2 - - Master Rule Co. "Interlox" sliding-joint 6' Rule. $20.00 The rule has seen some wear, but is in quite good condition with clear markings, and untarnished brass. A light cleaning will put it in excellent condition. There is an inconsequential splinter of wood missing from the first 1 1/2" on the "inside measure" side. The rule is marked by the "Master Rule Mfg. Co. Inc. N.Y.C.", and carries the trademark, "Interlox, Master Slide Rule". Patent marks are: 12-13-10, 7-29-13, 11-2-15; 12-24-18; & PAT'S PEND. Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/R2.htm Item R4 - Sohaco 7" Try and Mitre Square _____________________$10.00 This is a useful try/mitre square with blued 7" blade clearly marked with the Southington (Ct) Hardware Company "Sohaco" name. Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/R4.htm Item R5 - Hand Forged Calipers ______________________________$20.00 This is one of those handmade tools that grabs you with its delicacy, proportions, and craftsmanship. The legs taper in thickness and in width to very delicate points. The tool is 7 1/2" long overall, with legs that extend 2 1/2" beyond the pivot. They open to a gap of nearly 3". This is really a distinctive, wonderful tool for any collection! Fine. See it at http://134.88.16.130/R5.htm Item R6 - K & E 50' Cloth Tape in Leather-bound case.________$15.00 This is a very nice fifty-foot cloth measuring tape, in wonderful condition. The leather cover and nickel-plate brass fixtures are in excellent condtion. Fine. See it at http://134.88.16.130/R6.htm Item R7 - Taylor's Tailor's Square. _________________________$25.00 This is a Tailor's square is clean, and features beveled edges with a set of brass clips to hold the measured fabric. It measures 24" x 13" and is clearly marked, "S.T. Taylor, 816 B'way, New York. Fine See it at http://134.88.16.130/R7.htm Item R8 - Unmarked Early 4 1/2" Try Square. _____________$15.00 This small and delicate try square is superficially like an early Stanley #2 but appears to have hand stamped numbers. The rosewood and brass handle is in very nice condition, but the blade has suffered some light pitting, and someone carved a conspicuous "B" in it a long time ago. Good. See it at http://134.88.16.130/R8.htm Item R9 - Stanley #38 Ivory, 6" Caliper Rule.____________$240.00 This older type of the two-fold, 6" ivory caliper rule is a little pocket worn, and the ivory has yellowed (but not as much as the pictures indicate). But it has no cracks or damage--and its alignment pin is intact. The numbers and larger gradations can be read. The "No 38" is clear, and the maker's name, "Stanley Rule & Level Co., New Britain, Conn" can be discerned. The caliper slide works smoothly. Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/R9.htm SAWS & STUFF Item S1 - Stanley "Professional" 10 pt cross-cut._________$15.00 This is a newer saw, produced by/for Stanley, probably in the 1970s.. There is a factory-made hang hole near the blade tip. The blade is 26" long and is filed 10 pt cross cut. The handle is new-looking beech (not laminated), with pressed wheat carving and the above-mentioned logo. The original finish is intact. A saw easily in better than Good+ condition. See it at http://134.88.16.130/s1.htm Item S2 - Henry Disston & Sons No 7, 26" Handsaw. ________$20.00 This is one of the better older No 7s that I have seen. The beech handle is unchipped or cracked; the 26" nibbed blade is straight and clean, with 7" of depth at the heel and 2 1/2 at the toe. It is filed 9 tpi (and may be the original filing). The etching is clean and clear. There are four brass nuts, including the medallion which reads, "H. Disston & Sons, Philad'a". Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/S2.htm Item S3 - Willard Saw Co. Skewback 24" Panel Saw _________$12.00 This Willard saw has a nice straight blade, and a good handleThe etching is faint, but there; and features the Willard "K" in a field of ivy. This one is different from others that I've seen, since the words, "Willard Saw Co." arch across the top of the herbage. The handle suffers the usual paint spots and has just a slight chip from the underside of the upper horn. Four steel nuts, including a "warranted superior" medallion. There is but one stalk of wheat embossed on the beech handle, and its fingerhole is a little larger than I've seen on other Willard saws. This one is filed 6 tpi, rip. It will work well. Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/S3.htm Item S4 - Disston Town & Country Crosscut Hand Saw. _______$12.00 Nifty logo on a pretty clean saw that must date from the era of the Ford station wagon of the same name. A saw to add to a Disston collection. Etching thin in places, but Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/S4.htm Item S5 - Henry Disston No 7 Hand Saw.___________________$40.00 This is an old saw, stamped with the Henry Disston "humped" logo, and bearing the additional information, "Phil'ada, Cast Steel, 7, Warranted". The nibbed blade is 27" long, and has been sharpened enough to narrow it to about 1" at the toe. The carved beech handle has 4 solid head brass screws with split nuts, and a sunken eagle medallion marked, "Henry Disston, Phila". There is some roughness on one horn, and an old handle repair. This saw is in quite good condition for its age, which extends back into the 1860s, at least. Good. See it at http://134.88.16.130/S5.htm Item S6 - Henry Disston & Sons No. D-7 Lightweight Handsaw._$18.00 This 26" 11 tpi lightweight saw is in excellent condition, with shiny blade, clear etching, and a handle that is unchipped or worn. The blade is perfectly straight and reasonably sharp. A previous dim- witted owner (E.Harris) did scratch his name vertically across the blade in front of the handle. Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/S6.htm Item S7 - . Lancashire Pattern Hacksaw._______________$40.00 This nice hack saw features a well-turned beech handle with brass ferrule, and a hefty cast steel frame that is marked, "Prince" and "Cast Steel". Much of the original japanned finish is gone from the blade, and there is some light pitting. Why have an ordinary hack saw in the shop, when this one looks and works so well! Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/S7.htm MISCELLANEOUS Item M1 - Bridgeport Hdwe Mfg Corp Crating Tool_________$15.00 Like a double claw hammer, here is an improbable tool that is more noteworthy for its intent and quality than its utility. It is marked, "The Brdigeport Hdwe Mfg. Corp, Made in USA" on one side, and "MATCHLESS, PATENTED SEPT 29, 1908" on the other. It is a sturdy tool, 13" in length. About half of the original black finish remains on the metal. The wood is in good condition with some added paint spatters. You don't see these every day! Good+ See it at http://134.88.16.130/M1.htm Item M2 - Inlay Burnisher Tool _________________________$24.00 I believe this is a tool used to press and smooth inlays and stringing into place. If that isn't its purpose, it certainly could be used that way. The tool consists of a hollow, nickel-plated brass tube with screw closure at one end, and a screw tip at the other. Inside are four brass heads that fit on the screw tip, providing four shapes for pressing or burnishing. The tool is marked only, "Geo. G. Frye" on the end. I think this is an owner's stamp. There is a little wear to the nickel at the edges, but no dents or dings. I call it Fine. See it at http://134.88.16.130/M2.htm Sandy Moss smoss@u... phone 508-999-8218 (office) 508-636-2030 (home) 398 River Road Westport, MA 02790 ++++ End of thread 25362 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25363 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58362 (thread 25363) ---- From: Aaron R Ionta Date: 1999-02-24 15:11:00 Subject: Orange Frog Stanleys Hello GG's I was just pondering the meaning of life - er planes I have an Orange Frog Stanley Bailey #3 with Marvelous Rose wood etc etc that Tom Johnson foolishly sold to my wife for a BD present for mea few years ago ad I have never seen another Stanley Bailey plane with an orange frog. What wasthe time period that planes with orange frogs were made ? Which models revieved this treatment etc etc did Tom paint this orange in his garage ??? :) Aaron taak curious in MinneSNOWta (stolen From Bruce) we actually have snow this am whata strange Winter ---- Start of Message 58377 (thread 25363) ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 1999-02-24 16:49:00 Subject: Re: Orange Frog Stanleys In a message dated 2/24/99 7:12:00 AM, aaron.ionta@i... writes: << What was the time period that planes with orange frogs were made ? Which models revieved this treatment etc etc >> Although late Bedrocks are usually associated with orange frogs, some Stanley/Baileys received the orange frog treatment, too. I have a very late "low frog receiver" #2 with an orange frog. I suspect is was made about the same time as the orange frog Bedrocks (say 1933 -1941). Peter. ++++ End of thread 25363 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25364 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58364 (thread 25364) ---- From: Mike McCracken Date: 1999-02-24 15:26:00 Subject: Riving large trees Gentlemen and Ladies, I think the protocol is that I first introduce myself to the group prior to any comments. My name is Michael McCracken, and I am a greenhorn beginner at working with hand tools. I must say that my experience is next to none compared to most members of the group. Which leads me to this short story, and why I became interested in hand tools in the first place. That is, beyond doing things like cutting morises for locks and hinges. A white oak tree was expiring on our front lawn, and the neighbors were concerned about it falling on their house. Being a good neighbor, I ignored them for a year, but SWMBO is not ignorable, and so the tree had to be taken down. Please note I live in an in-town neighborhood and this thing was a100 year old white oak with a 38" diameter. To shorten things up, I had the thing taken down, and the three bottom logs carted to a nearby sawyer to make me some boards. The mill was a WoodMizer manned by a 72 year old man who loved to do wheelies in his bobcat. To get the beasts onto his mill we had to cut 11 foot logs into 5'6" lengths and then split the suckers. That leads to my posting, and I hope it doesn't offend anyone, but here's how we did it. We used one of those non-hand tools called a chain saw. The mill owner sliced down the center of each side of the log (starting at an existing check in the log), and then joined the two end slices by cutting through the middle. We still had to get out the wedges and mauls to finish splitting the log, but the result was almost no waste due to hand splitting. I was intending to quarter saw the logs, and wanted to save as much of this stuff as I could. Since I am a city slicker, logs are real hard to come by. This is one of those times, IMHO, that resorting to the mechanical devices allowed me to end up with over 1000 bd feet of qs white oak. It still took us 4 days to cut the stuff on the mill. Best time I have had in some time. Mike p.s., the chain saw was a big sucker, 30" as I recall. Took both of us to start the darn thing. One holding and one yanking on the rope. ++++ End of thread 25364 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25365 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58367 (thread 25365) ---- From: Hal Laurent Date: 1999-02-24 16:01:00 Subject: Mounting wooden vise screws I'm about to make a twin screw face vise for my bench, and I could use some advice from galoots who have made vises with wooden screws. My wooden vise screws are 1 7/8 inch in diameter. How tight should I make the holes for them to go through? Should I buy a 1 7/8 inch drill bit and then rasp the hole larger as needed, or will a 2 inch hole suffice? In either case I'll have to buy a drill bit, but I'd just as soon only buy one of them. I'm inclined to think the 2 inch hole would work fine, but I'd love to hear from someone with actual experience. Hal Laurent, Baltimore Maryland Home: laurent@c... Work: harold.laurent@d... ++++ End of thread 25365 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25366 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58371 (thread 25366) ---- From: Jim Ketcheson Date: 1999-02-24 17:45:00 Subject: Chute Plane I have just spent some time with Kingshotts book on Making and Modifying tools and would like a chute board and plane. Wondered if any one had any ideas or comments on the thought of making the plane from a piece of very heavy angle iron with a pair of webs welded in to support the right angle then the frog etc. from say a Stanley 6 set in to hold the blade. The two outer surface could be surface ground or milled to get the right angle. Thinking along the lines of 3/8" thick angle of 3 x 3 dimension.Wouldn't be as elegant as a cast one but I feel should make a very useful user. Comments? Jim Ketcheson, Belleville, Canada ---- Start of Message 58435 (thread 25366) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-25 08:16:00 Subject: Re: Chute Plane > > I have just spent some time with Kingshotts book on Making and Modifying > tools I wish he'd give time estimates in that book. > and would like a chute board and plane. Wondered if any one had > any ideas or comments on the thought of making the plane from a piece of > very heavy angle iron with a pair of webs welded in to support the right > angle then the frog etc. from say a Stanley 6 set in to hold the blade. > The two outer surface could be surface ground or milled to get the right > angle. Thinking along the lines of 3/8" thick angle of 3 x 3 > dimension.Wouldn't be as elegant as a cast one but I feel should make a > very useful user. Comments? > Jim Ketcheson, > Belleville, > Canada This is just me thinking aloud. We are woodworkers, right? (collectors, just keep quiet!). And all the woodie buffs will tell you that wood-on-wood is a low-friction, low wear action (just ask J. Harrison, clock maker to the admiralty). So could one make a chute "sledge" to carry a normal #7 (or #8 for the obessessed), all out of wood. Simple slot, or sliding dovetail choice left to the designer. In FWW "machine tools" book (sorry about that) a guy makes a cross cut table saw (and a big one at that) using wooden rails and runners (actually everything but the screws, motor and blade was wood) Granted, I too, would not spurn the real thing (at the right price!) but this sounds like a good way to get ends shot. Comments, anyone? BugBear. ---- Start of Message 58439 (thread 25366) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-25 10:51:00 Subject: Re: Chute Plane <>> > I've been thinking along the same lines. There is a local tool sale next month. > If I find a good #6 in there, I might give the idea a try. I'll definitely need > to make a slanted tote, though. The trials I made with my #5 resulted in a lot > of grated knuckles... Trials? Tell us more (please) Anyway, you don't need a slanted tote, you need a tote on the sledge... BugBear. ---- Start of Message 58442 (thread 25366) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-25 13:11:00 Subject: Re: Chute Plane -----Original Message----- From: Paul Womack Date: Thursday, 25 February 1999 20:39 Subject: Re: Chute Plane > >Trials? Tell us more (please) > Nothing much. When I was making the shooting board and bench hook for the new bench, it came to me that maybe (just maybe, note!) I could make something similar to Kingshott's stuff with some off cuts of MDF. So I set about it. The idea was to carry the plane fixed in a kind of "sled", which then slid in a close track of again MDF. The core of the idea was to avoid any rocking or pitching of the plane on its side and therefore uneven cut. It worked MOL, but I couldn't push it properly because of a lack of a good grab. And the knuckles also suffered: I made the track slightly higher than the sled and it was in the right position to go ... So I put it into the "come back later" box. And a #5 is not big/wide enough, IMHO. I'd need a 6 or maybe a 5 1/2. >Anyway, you don't need a slanted tote, you need a tote on the sledge... I guess I never thought of that.... My sled was not wide/large enough that I could put a handle in it. But you got me thinking now. See what you have done ? ;-) Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ---- Start of Message 59462 (thread 25366) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-25 11:47:00 Subject: Re: Chute Plane -----Original Message----- From: Paul Womack To: jim.ketcheson@s... ; OLDTOOLS@l... Date: Thursday, 25 February 1999 18:12 Subject: Re: Chute Plane >Granted, I too, would not spurn the real thing (at the right price!) >but this sounds like a good way to get ends shot. > >Comments, anyone? > I've been thinking along the same lines. There is a local tool sale next month . If I find a good #6 in there, I might give the idea a try. I'll definitely need to make a slanted tote, though. The trials I made with my #5 resulted in a lot of grated knuckles... Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ++++ End of thread 25366 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25367 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58372 (thread 25367) ---- From: Brandon Ford Date: 1999-02-24 17:53:00 Subject: Ben's Mill (was Village Carpenter) Friends, Bugbear gives us some tantalizing snippets from The Village Carpenter that get my galoot blood racing. The rate of work in particular struck a chord with me. "work-rates are REALLY high * a girl's "travelling clothes box". "... it involved planing all the wood, and dovetailing each angle. The finished box was fitted with lock and key and iron handles at each end". This was "reckoned a day's work" * "The making of a gate was considered a day's work for a qualified carpenter, and was expected to be done in the ten hours which at that time constituted a day of labour. No one ever suggested that it was possible to make one in less time. The oak was hard with long seasoning, and all the work - planing, morticing, tenoning and fitting in of the rails - was done by hand" I checked out a great video from the public library of a 1981 Odyssey (PBS) program entitled "Ben's Mill." It's about this guy, Ben, who owns and works a water-powered mill in Vermont. He does black smithing and woodworking, making what ever the town folk need or want. He bought the mill in 1941. The water turbine in the pen stock runs a line shaft that powers a table saw, buzz planer (jointer), thickness planer, power hammer and other tools. The video shows him making several projects including a wooden horse-drawn sleigh and a stock tank. Lots of great close ups of him using a mortising gauge, draw knife, etc. One thing that impressed me was that this stock tank (which is a barrel 8' in diameter and about 3' high) took him a day to complete from rough-sawn lumber to finished tank -- including a coat of paint. Even with the same tools, I would have to figure about a week to knock something that big out, if I could have a full week. I think of my projects and "to-do" list and realize that theses old boys could knock this stuff out in a week or two. Meantime, I'm just hoping to get it done in my life time (or my wife's, since most of the stuff on there is at her request). I'm to the point in my woodworking where I feel confident tackling almost any project, the difference is it will just take me four or five times as long as one of these old timers. ++++ End of thread 25367 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25368 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58379 (thread 25368) ---- From: "David Boreham" Date: 1999-02-24 18:18:00 Subject: How to cut plugs on the cheap ? The bench I'm building calls for 1" dai plugs to fit in the holes bored for the bolts holding the top to the frame, and the vice to the top. Checked in the catalogs and a 1" plug cutting bit runs to $80 !!! I'm not paying $80 for a piece of tooling I'll use only once. So, what's the "right" way to plug these holes on the cheap ? I wondered about chiseling the top 1/4" of the hold square and using square plugs. I don't think I can obtain 1" maple dowel stock. (Needless to say I don't own a lathe). ---- Start of Message 58381 (thread 25368) ---- From: Kenneth Stagg Date: 1999-02-24 18:28:00 Subject: Re: How to cut plugs on the cheap ? David Boreham wrote: > > I don't think I can obtain 1" maple dowel > stock. David, I don't know about Maple but Woodcraft sells 1" dowels in some hardwoods - mayb e Walnut for a nice contrast? or Birch to blend in better? -Ken ---- Start of Message 58384 (thread 25368) ---- From: Paul Way Date: 1999-02-24 18:50:00 Subject: RE: How to cut plugs on the cheap ? David, I have had limited success making dowels out of square stock by scribing a circle on the end of the stock and using a draw knife, block plane and chisels to round the stock. I put a bit of a taper on the plug and work right up to the scribed line but leave the line. Then I will hammer this into the hole and the fibers will compress somewhat to fill the gaps. If you are using maple you may want to get as close to the line as possible because it will not compress as much. Hope this helps Paul Way So, what's the "right" way to plug these holes on the cheap ? I wondered about chiseling the top 1/4" of the hold square and using square plugs. I don't think I can obtain 1" maple dowel stock. ---- Start of Message 58388 (thread 25368) ---- From: "David Boreham" Date: 1999-02-24 19:40:00 Subject: Re: How to cut plugs on the cheap ? So now I've engaged my brain I realize I don't want dowels because they'd show a nasty patch of endgrain on the bench top. So, thanks for all the responses. I've narrowed the field down to: 1. Use square patches. 2. Someone with a 1" plug cutter kindly makes me some plugs. 3. I buy a discount, non $80 plug cutter. Once again I'm overwhelmed by the helpful responses obtained on this list ! ---- Start of Message 58389 (thread 25368) ---- From: normanw@t... Date: 1999-02-24 19:40:00 Subject: Re: How to cut plugs on the cheap ? Date: (Date Unavailable) Phil Koontz writes: > When I started to put the new handle on my other axe head, I thought > carefully about how long I want it, which direction it will go, and the > general hang of the head. As most of you no doubt realize, the handle > can go on these either way. This way makes it right handed, that makes > it left handed. However, I'm not real sure which is which. Does everyone > use their hewing axe with the flat side toward the work? I always use mine with the flat side to the work, and can't imagine doing otherwise. I mainly use my hewing hatchet as the first step in turning firewood into boards or turning blanks, and so am generally trying to hew a straight line. I am right handed, so I hold the work with my left hand and hew with the right; this means that the flat side must be on the left side of the hatchet. I imagine having the bevel towards the work might be useful when hewing to a concave line, but in this case I suggest that the hewing hatchet is the wrong tool for the job, and an ordinary double-bevelled hatchet would be more appropriate. > And how long are the handles? These are small axes, about 2 pounds. But > my framing axe has about the same weight and a longer handle--18" or so > instead of 10". Some of the traditional hewing axes were apparently > used with very short handles; is there a difference in the applications? Both of my hewing hatchets have 10 or 12 inch handles. A short handle will give you better control, but it still needs to be long enough to keep your fingers from scraping the work. If you know that all your work will be small enough to avoid this problem, a very short handle might be useful. Personally, I like the 12" length, and choke up on the handle as needed. From its 18" length, I suspect your framing axe is intended to be used with two hands. > An under appreciated tool, IMHO. Definitely. It is all but essential if you are working with rough wood. My sequence for turning firewood into boards is: hewing hatchet, drawknive, roughing jack plane (8" radius blade), and jack/jointer/smoother to finish. The job is easy if you have the first three tools, but becomes long and unpleasant is any is is missing. Norm W. ---- Start of Message 58391 (thread 25368) ---- From: Louis Michaud Date: 1999-02-24 20:05:00 Subject: Re: How to cut plugs on the cheap ? Roy's way: A 1/4 in. steel plate, drill a hole the size you want the dowels, chamfer the underside, a few undersized holes (1/64) increments, round the stock with drawknife or spokeshave and hammer the stock in the holes. HTH Louis Michaud ---- Start of Message 58392 (thread 25368) ---- From: Hal Laurent Date: 1999-02-24 20:14:00 Subject: Re: How to cut plugs on the cheap ? "David Boreham" said: > >Checked in the catalogs and a 1" plug cutting >bit runs to $80 !!! I'm not paying $80 for a >piece of tooling I'll use only once. Lee Valley Tools ( http://www.leevalley.com ) has one inch plug cutters for $10.35 to $12.25, depending on if you want carbon steel or carbide tipped. Hal Laurent, Baltimore Maryland Home: laurent@c... Work: harold.laurent@d... ---- Start of Message 58405 (thread 25368) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-02-24 18:30:00 Subject: Re: How to cut plugs on the cheap ? David Boreham wrote: > > The bench I'm building calls for 1" dai plugs to > fit in the holes bored for the bolts holding the top > to the frame, and the vice to the top. > > Checked in the catalogs and a 1" plug cutting > bit runs to $80 !!! I'm not paying $80 for a > piece of tooling I'll use only once. > > So, what's the "right" way to plug these > holes on the cheap ? > I wondered about chiseling the top 1/4" > of the hold square and using square > plugs. > I don't think I can obtain 1" maple dowel > stock. How about using a tenon cutter? You only need short peices for plugs so that should work. As for dowels I've found maple/birch dowel up to 1 3/4" at the local lumber yard. I'm also pretty sure that Lee Valley sells it up to 1" and it's even round unlike the normal oval shapes you get. Dan ---- Start of Message 58432 (thread 25368) ---- From: Walter Barry Date: 1999-02-25 09:59:00 Subject: RE: How to cut plugs on the cheap ? > So now I've engaged my brain I realize I don't > want dowels because they'd show a nasty patch > of endgrain on the bench top. I personally didn't care when I plugged the bolt holes for my main vise years ago. The bench top is 3 1/2" thick, and the dents and dog holes, etc. give it a warm character. The pretty table tops go upstairs to my wife and kids. I simply mixed up a thick batch of epoxy, mixed in with a pile of sawdust, smoothed it out, and plained it flat after it dried. Very hard and durable, this technique has held up great over the past years, and has even survived a flood, that afterward required me to remove and reinstall the vise for cleaning, with the bolts still secure. Otherwise, McFeelys mail order has the dowels in Maple, Oak and Cherry last time I looked. Walter ---- Start of Message 58447 (thread 25368) ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 1999-02-25 14:31:00 Subject: Re: How to cut plugs on the cheap ? Hi, David and Others I don't like cutting off dowels to make plugs because the grain direction in the plug should follow the grain direction in the surface being plugged -- for appearance as well as stability. For a 1 inch plug you can buy a cheap set of hole saws at someplace like K-Mart. To use free-hand in a bit brace you will have to start with the center twist-drill in place; but after the saw has cut down a little way, you can remove the drill and finish the cut so as not to have a quarter inch hole in the middle of your plug. Turn the plug over so that the drill hole is hidden. If used in a post drill or drill press, you can start out without the drill in the center. Trevor Robinson ++++ End of thread 25368 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25369 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58382 (thread 25369) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-02-24 18:26:00 Subject: big saw questions I've been wondering about 2 man crossut saw and the saws used for ripping logs into planks. I've never noticed any distinction between the two. People often seem to refer to the two interchangably. So are they the same saw? I would have thought that there may have been a different tooth pattern for ripping vs crosscutting just like the little handsaws we normally use but I've never seen mention of this. If the teeth are the same were they sharpened differently for the two operations? Thanks Dan ---- Start of Message 58495 (thread 25369) ---- From: Phil and Debbie Koontz Date: 1999-02-26 00:53:00 Subject: Re: big saw questions Daniel Indrigo writes: >I've been wondering about 2 man crossut saw and the saws used for >ripping logs into planks. I've never noticed any distinction between >the two. People often seem to refer to the two interchangably. So are they >the same saw? I would have thought that there may have been a >different tooth pattern for ripping vs crosscutting Daniel and long toothed galoots-- I think the saw that's supposed to be used for ripping as you describe is a pit saw. They are notably different than the two-man whip saws. The top handle is a t-shaped "tiller", and the bottom handle is called a box (I believe). Yeah, here's a reference; Roy Underhill, "The Wood Wright's Companion," page 165 et seq. The box is removable so you can re-insert the saw into a cut after you roll it forward on the trestle. The teeth, as you speculate, look just like rip teeth on a hand saw. Bigger, of course. I think the reason you see people ripping with cross cuts is simply that the pit saws are hard to find. Phil Koontz ---- Start of Message 58498 (thread 25369) ---- From: "Rodney Myrvaagnes" Date: 1999-02-26 04:55:00 Subject: Re: big saw questions No No No. The saw for cutting a log into planks is a 'pit saw'. One man stands atop the log. He lifts and guides the saw with a T handle. The other stands below, with a very broad-brimmed hat, and provides the muscle on the down stroke. The hat keeps the shower of sawdust out of his face. I have two of these hanging on my apartment wall. If someone wants to try this, and has a place to do it, I will be glad to watch. :-) I will even buy the beer. On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:26:15 -0500, Daniel Indrigo wrote: >I've been wondering about 2 man crossut saw and the saws used for >ripping logs into planks. I've never noticed any distinction between the >two. People often seem to refer to the two interchangably. So are they >the same saw? I would have thought that there may have been a different >tooth pattern for ripping vs crosscutting just like the little handsaws >we normally use but I've never seen mention of this. If the teeth are >the same were they sharpened differently for the two operations? > >Thanks > >Dan > >-- > > Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a 20+ years without a car, a TV, or a website ---- Start of Message 58508 (thread 25369) ---- From: Tony Blanks Date: 1999-02-26 10:41:00 Subject: Re: big saw questions Rodney Myrvaagnes suggest in part, > The saw for cutting a log into planks is a 'pit >saw'. One man stands atop the log. He lifts and guides the >saw with a T handle. The other stands below, with a very >broad-brimmed hat, and provides the muscle on the down >stroke. The hat keeps the shower of sawdust out of his >face. Well, yes and partly [as opposed to yes and no] ;-). The pit man's main job was to "throw the saw up" rather than drag it down. At the end of the stroke the pit man pulled back a little and heaved up on the lower end of the saw. This saved the drag of the backs of the teeth against the uncut end of the kerf, and possibly more importantly saved the back of the Boss, the top sawyer. He did pull down a little, but the saw was usually kept well oiled and that with gravity helped the descent. Getting the saw back to the top of the stroke was the hard part of the pit man's job. The top sawyer owned the saws and was responsible for their care and attention, and for the straightness of the sawing. The guy in the pit worked hard and worked up a thirst. Or so I am assured by a couple of oldtimerswho did this for their father in the Tasmanian bush in the late 20s and early 30s, well before my time! Regards, Tony B Hobart, Tasmania Still seeking dowelling auger bits ---- Start of Message 58515 (thread 25369) ---- From: "Rodney Myrvaagnes" Date: 1999-02-26 14:32:00 Subject: Re: big saw questions Thanks for the clarification. I have only seen one photo of this being done, but what you say makes perfect sense. My offer to buy the beer and watch still stands. On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:41:11 +1100, Tony Blanks wrote: >Rodney Myrvaagnes suggest in part, > >> The saw for cutting a log into planks is a 'pit >>saw'. One man stands atop the log. He lifts and guides the >>saw with a T handle. The other stands below, with a very >>broad-brimmed hat, and provides the muscle on the down >>stroke. The hat keeps the shower of sawdust out of his >>face. > > >Well, yes and partly [as opposed to yes and no] ;-). The pit man's main >job was to "throw the saw up" rather than drag it down. At the end of the >stroke the pit man pulled back a little and heaved up on the lower end of >the saw. This saved the drag of the backs of the teeth against the uncut >end of the kerf, and possibly more importantly saved the back of the Boss, >the top sawyer. He did pull down a little, but the saw was usually kept >well oiled and that with gravity helped the descent. Getting the saw back >to the top of the stroke was the hard part of the pit man's job. The top >sawyer owned the saws and was responsible for their care and attention, and >for the straightness of the sawing. The guy in the pit worked hard and >worked up a thirst. > >Or so I am assured by a couple of oldtimerswho did this for their father in >the Tasmanian bush in the late 20s and early 30s, well before my time! > >Regards, > >Tony B >Hobart, Tasmania > >Still seeking dowelling auger bits > > >-- > > Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a Associate Editor Electronic Products 20+ years without a car, a TV, or a website ---- Start of Message 58537 (thread 25369) ---- From: Jimmy Reina Date: 1999-02-27 06:26:00 Subject: Re: big saw questions The other stands below, with a very > broad-brimmed hat, and provides the muscle on the down > stroke. The hat keeps the shower of sawdust out of his > face. HENCE THE EXPRESSION, "THIS IS THE PITS" Jimmy Reina Tools Tools Tools 1511 San Pablo Avenue Berkeley, CA 94702 (510) 528-5516 (510) 528-2997 FAX E-Mail mailto:toolsx3@f... WEB Site http://www.toolsx3.com Mirror Site http://www.flash.net/~toolsx3/ ---- Start of Message 58554 (thread 25369) ---- From: elschaffer@j... Date: 1999-02-26 21:44:00 Subject: Re: big saw questions -----also the terms of "top dog" and "underdog"! --ErvSawwwwwwwwz On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:26:05 -0800 Jimmy Reina writes: >The other stands below, with a very >> broad-brimmed hat, and provides the muscle on the down >> stroke. The hat keeps the shower of sawdust out of his >> face. > >HENCE THE EXPRESSION, "THIS IS THE PITS" > >Jimmy Reina > > > > Tools Tools Tools > 1511 San Pablo Avenue > Berkeley, CA 94702 > (510) 528-5516 > (510) 528-2997 FAX > >E-Mail mailto:toolsx3@f... > >WEB Site >http://www.toolsx3.com >Mirror Site >http://www.flash.net/~toolsx3/ > >-- > > ++++ End of thread 25369 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25370 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58383 (thread 25370) ---- From: Dave Shepard Date: 1999-02-24 18:49:00 Subject: different application of holdfasts I tend to take in a metalworking machinery auction from time to time. This past Tuesday I attended an auction at a plant that made stainless vacuum chambers in pretty large sizes. There I saw an interesting applications of holdfasts such as those used in our wood benches. They had two tables they called staking tables. They sat about two feet high, and were five by five feet square. Essentially it was a honeycomb of square holes that were about two inches square and about four inches on center. The holdfasts were made out of steel and measured about 16 inches on each leg. The table ranged from three inches to six inches thick made of iron. I am guessing it weighed at least a couple of tons. The holdfasts were set with a two pound sledge. The table was used to hold pieces for welding and grinding. A nice extra was that the entire table and any pieces on it could be placed into a heat treating oven for several hours without harming the table. Although I picked up a couple collet sets and measuring instruments (to be used for making plane parts I'm sure), I decided rather quickly not to spring for one of these tables even for the meager $500 they sold for. ;-) It's always neat to see how different industries use similar tricks and techniques in their work. There weren't a lot of galoot style tools there unless you count manual sheet metal breaks, notchers, beverly shears, and punch presses. Cheers, --Dave ---- Start of Message 58404 (thread 25370) ---- From: Richard Danzey Date: 1999-02-24 23:21:00 Subject: Re: different application of holdfasts Dave Shepard wrote: > > I tend to take in a metalworking machinery auction from time to time. > This past Tuesday I attended an auction at a plant that made stainless > vacuum chambers in pretty large sizes. There I saw an interesting > applications of holdfasts such as those used in our wood benches. > > They had two tables they called staking tables. They sat about two > feet high, and were five by five feet square. Essentially it was a > honeycomb of square holes that were about two inches square and > about four inches on center. The holdfasts were made out of steel > and measured about 16 inches on each leg. The table ranged from > three inches to six inches thick made of iron. I am guessing it > weighed at least a couple of tons. The holdfasts were set with a > two pound sledge. The table was used to hold pieces for welding > and grinding. A nice extra was that the entire table and any > pieces on it could be placed into a heat treating oven for several > hours without harming the table. > It's always neat to see how different industries use similar tricks > and techniques in their work. There weren't a lot of galoot style > tools there unless you count manual sheet metal breaks, notchers, > beverly shears, and punch presses. > > Cheers, > --Dave Dave; I've seen such 'equipment' in trade magazines. They are called platens and one company I know is Acorn. I've always considered them to be out of reach, but for $500 it would be a nice addition to any shop that had need and space. I used to work at a Ford Tractor dealership. They had a marvelous table on wheels with a approximately 1/2" thick steel top. I never checked it for flatness, but it was reasonably so. A friend who worked there suggested 'tacking' pieces of steel on the tabletop in a sort of jig arrangement while the welding is done. Then the weldment could be removed from the top by breaking the tacks. Suitable workaround, old tool content? Use a ball peen hammer and cold chisel to break the tacks. I'll bet the platens have been a staple in the traditional industrial setting as long as some of the Gallots' favorites. Best wishes.... danz PS: I looked up peen for ball peen hammer. How many of you thought the word was spelled 'pein' or maybe 'pien', like I did? danz ---- Start of Message 58411 (thread 25370) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 1999-02-24 23:33:00 Subject: Re: different application of holdfasts On 24 Feb 99 at 18:21, Richard Danzey wrote: > PS: I looked up peen for ball peen hammer. How many of you thought the > word was spelled 'pein' or maybe 'pien', like I did? And, just for fun, I have been reading the Complete Woodworker these days and the esteemed Mr. Jones says it is spelled "pene" or "pane". So I think the answer is whatever makes you happy, so long as the listener understands what you are talking about. -Ken, normally a spelling fanatic but willing to make an exception Ken Greenberg IT #321; Blue Galoot #82 400 Los Gatos Blvd., Los Gatos, CA 95032 http://www.calast.com/ken/Personal/wood.htm ++++ End of thread 25370 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25371 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58385 (thread 25371) ---- From: Chuck Hess Date: 1999-02-24 16:47:00 Subject: Master craftsman trick Aloha Galoots, I once read a long time ago that some master craftsmen used a piece of cotton with a drop of oil on it in each compartment of their chisel roll. this was to keep to chisel tip in contact with oily cotton to prevent corrosion. Has anyone else ever heard of this? Does anyone on the list do this? Would there be danger of spontaneous combustion? Thanks in advance o' rulers of the old tool universe. ---- Start of Message 58397 (thread 25371) ---- From: Johnny Johnson Date: 1999-02-24 20:50:00 Subject: Re: Master craftsman trick At 08:47 AM 2/24/99 -0800, Chuck Hess wrote: >Aloha Galoots, > I once read a long time ago that some master craftsmen used a piece >of cotton with a drop of oil on it in each compartment of their chisel >roll. this was to keep to chisel tip in contact with oily cotton to >prevent corrosion. > Would there be danger of spontaneous combustion? Hi Chuck, Guess it depends on the type of oil you used. There wouldn't be if you used a lubricating oil but there might be if you used a finishing oil with driers. Later, Johnny ---------------------------------------------- Johnny Johnson Lilburn, GA mailto:jjohnso4@b... ---- Start of Message 58418 (thread 25371) ---- From: Gary Paine Date: 1999-02-25 02:55:00 Subject: Re: Master Craftsman Trick Chuck Wrote: > Aloha Galoots, > I once read a long time ago that some master craftsmen used a piece > of cotton with a drop of oil on it in each compartment of their chisel > roll. this was to keep to chisel tip in contact with oily cotton to > prevent corrosion. > Has anyone else ever heard of this? > Does anyone on the list do this? > Would there be danger of spontaneous combustion? > I've found them that way, Chuck. I also uncovered a 1920s carpenter chest, complete and in good condition some time back that had a 3x3 block of wood with oil soaked carpet in one of the tills. I have since read this was used to wipe the saw blade before storing back in the chest. I've used it and like it. The carpet isn't wet, just oil impregnated. Gary ---- Start of Message 58448 (thread 25371) ---- From: "Clarke Green" Date: 1999-02-25 16:00:00 Subject: Re: Master Craftsman Trick > some time back that had a > 3x3 block of wood with oil soaked carpet in one of the tills. I have > since read this was used to wipe the saw blade before storing back in > the chest. I've used it and like it. The carpet isn't wet, just oil > impregnated. > Gary I recall someone getting an oil wick from a secret santa. This was a felt roll in a can (I think) moistened with mineral oil. I have also seen camellia oil in an applicator bottle sold with Japanese tools. Both were used to lubricate tools against rust and for easing their use. Clarke Green ++++ End of thread 25371 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25372 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58387 (thread 25372) ---- From: "John L. Odom" Date: 1999-02-24 19:22:00 Subject: Oily cotton in tool roll There would be no hazard if the oil is a petroleum oil. There might be a hazard if tje oil was a drying oil like linseed or tung. John Odom, in Ooltewah, TN ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ++++ End of thread 25372 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25373 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58390 (thread 25373) ---- From: Tim Fuss Date: 1999-02-24 19:56:00 Subject: Skinny T&G (was Quick trip report) Ed asked for some more details about the breadboard style lensboards... Hey, nice going with the Deardorff, Ed! (high end, lustable view camera, Paddy). I'm still in the quantity over quality mode with my old view cameras, gotta do some thinning out before I can spring for the big $ stuff. So far, I've only done a couple of those thin breadboards, and that was before my conversion to the kinder side of the force. For my next ones, I hope to use a narrow groove plane to cut the ends (groove is 1/3 of 1/4") and then use a rabbet or dado plane to cut the tongues - probably a trial and error fit. It might make sense to start with a thicker board to allow some mis-alignment between the center and the ends, and then plane to final thickness. I don't know how far down the project list this is, but I'll try to report back if it's fairly soon. ---- Start of Message 58413 (thread 25373) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-02-25 01:32:00 Subject: Re: Skinny T&G (was Quick trip report) Tim Fuss wrote: > Ed asked for some more details about the breadboard style > lensboards... > > > > So far, I've only done a couple of those thin breadboards, and > that was before my conversion to the kinder side of the force. > For my next ones, I hope to use a narrow groove plane to cut the > ends (groove is 1/3 of 1/4") and then use a rabbet or dado plane > to cut the tongues - probably a trial and error fit. It might I've never used one but a record 043 (I think that's the number) should be perfect for this kind of thing. IF you've never seen one this is the a tiny metal combination plane. I don't think the biggest blade that came with it was any bigger than about 3/8. It's really small, not much bigger than a block plane if I recall. I've only seen one for sale once, that was at an auction last year. I'm still kicking myself for not having bought it, it only went for $60 cdn. Does anyone have and use one of these? Is it just a neat toy or does it work ok? Dan ---- Start of Message 58428 (thread 25373) ---- From: Wes Groot Date: 1999-02-25 07:26:00 Subject: Re: Skinny T&G (was Quick trip report) Tim, Galoots, I was fortunate enough to get as a gift, (what else, all my good stuff comes from SWMBO!) a 5/16th T&G set by T.Turner Sheffield (extra-crispy too;-). I used it to join some 1/4" Spanish cedar for the top and bottom liner of a humidor I made. The toungue was slightly off center, (of course) but I put the strong side up and the result was beyond my expectations. It was a nice surprise. I would recommend that solution highly for your application. .02, Wes Tim Fuss wrote: > > Ed asked for some more details about the breadboard style > lensboards... > > Hey, nice going with the Deardorff, Ed! > (high end, lustable view camera, Paddy). I'm still in the > quantity over quality mode with my old view cameras, gotta do > some thinning out before I can spring for the big $ stuff. > > So far, I've only done a couple of those thin breadboards, and > that was before my conversion to the kinder side of the force. > For my next ones, I hope to use a narrow groove plane to cut the > ends (groove is 1/3 of 1/4") and then use a rabbet or dado plane > to cut the tongues - probably a trial and error fit. It might > make sense to start with a thicker board to allow some > mis-alignment between the center and the ends, and then plane to > final thickness. > > I don't know how far down the project list this is, but I'll try > to report back if it's fairly soon. > > -- > Tim Fuss (the Other Brother Galoot ) > Rochester, NY > Neat Old Stuff - old tools, classic cameras, vintage guitars... > > -- ---- Start of Message 58437 (thread 25373) ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1999-02-25 10:22:00 Subject: The record 043 (Was Re: Skinny T&G (was Quick trip report) Wow - more Record stuff. - story so far. . . . Daniel Indrigo wrote: > Tim Fuss wrote: > > > Ed asked for some more details about the breadboard style > > lensboards... > > > > > > > > For my next ones, I hope to use a narrow groove plane to cut the > > ends (groove is 1/3 of 1/4") and then use a rabbet or dado plane > > to cut the tongues - probably a trial and error fit. It might > > I've never used one but a record 043 (I think that's the number) should > be perfect for this kind of thing. IF you've never seen one this is the > a tiny metal combination plane. I don't think the biggest blade that > came with it was any bigger than about 3/8. It's really small, not much > bigger than a block plane if I recall. I've only seen one for sale once, > that was at an auction last year. I'm still kicking myself for not > having bought it, it only went for $60 cdn. Does anyone have and use one > of these? Is it just a neat toy or does it work ok? > > Dan The record 43 - it's just the grooviest (a pun, Paddy) tool in the workshop. I really shouldn't drive up prices by telling you this again, but for drawer bottom grooves, small grooves as above, there is nothing else in my workshop that comes close. - it works OK !! Originally supplied with three blades - 1/8, 3/16 and 1/4, you should watch for the depth stop being present - often MIA, and that the fence rods are straight - for some reason they are often bent - probably because these got a lot of use. I looked at three examples yesterday - 2 had the blade clamp missing, one had bent rods, the third was actually made by Rapier, though it had to have vome from the same mould - I just have to go and do a type study on these. Other points - earlier models use a thinner fence rod (bad?) but thumbscrew type screws for the fence and depth stop screw. Later models seem to have moved to a knurled head screw. personally I prefer the flat thumbscrew as easier to use. These are almost toy like to some of you. Oh prices - going wild, unfortunately. The poor examples I saw were asking 40 Pounds, and that was incomplete, plating gone, and barely usable for parts (I have a couple of orphans to look after) Bottom line - if you see one, buy one. Richard Wilson Worcestershire, UK ++++ End of thread 25373 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25374 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58393 (thread 25374) ---- From: "George Langford, Sc.D." Date: 1999-02-24 23:22:00 Subject: Needed: Help to ID father of bastard plane Haaalp Galoots ! Got a paternity problem ... Just got a KK5-1/2 plane with a strange frog. Strange because the frog's hold-down screw slots do not match the holes in the bed casting. The bed is an early Bailey (not Bedrock) design with the large flat machined area around the screw holes, and no central (lengthwise) rib. The lateral lever has the inscription, "PAT. FEB. 3-9X". The front of the frog has a waffle pattern in the recessed areas, and the middle recess, the one into which the head of the clamp screw that holds the chip breaker & iron together fits, has a "batmobile" look to it. The screw slots in the frog have a narrower center distance than the screw holes in the bed. Needless to say, the frog does not fit the bed, although it does seem to be about the right width. The nut on the cutter adjustment screw has a steel center and thin brass head, staked into place. The Y lever is cast. Shall I hang onto this as a curiosity or send the various parts back to their rightful owners ? Best regards, George Langford, in warmer (still cold) SE PA amenex@e... ---- Start of Message 58398 (thread 25374) ---- From: Jim Cook Date: 1999-02-24 21:04:00 Subject: RE: Needed: Help to ID father of bastard plane George Langford, Sc.D. cries out: Haaalp Galoots ! Got a paternity problem ... Just got a KK5-1/2 plane with a strange frog. Strange because the frog's hold-down screw slots do not match the holes in the bed casting. The bed is an early Bailey (not Bedrock) design with the large flat machined area around the screw holes, and no central (lengthwise) rib. The lateral lever has the inscription, "PAT. FEB. 3-9X". The front of the frog has a waffle pattern in the recessed areas, and the middle recess, the one into which the head of the clamp screw that holds the chip breaker & iron together fits, has a "batmobile" look to it. The screw slots in the frog have a narrower center distance than the screw holes in the bed. Needless to say, the frog does not fit the bed, although it does seem to be about the right width. The nut on the cutter adjustment screw has a steel center and thin brass head, staked into place. The Y lever is cast. Shall I hang onto this as a curiosity or send the various parts back to their rightful owners ? -------- George, I can't quite visualize the batmobility of the screw holding the cutter to the chip breaker (though I love the sound of it), but I believe Sargent made a large percentage of the "KK" planes. I have a KK 5 that shows a similar symptom of almost looking right, but the mating between the frog and the receiver doesn't appear to be correct, and tends to rock a bit from front to back. The early Sargent planes do have the same type of frog receiver as the early Stanleys. Heckel's Sargent guide lists a #15 and #415, which appear to be the equivalent sizes to a 5-1/2, so that could be your culprit. Jim Cook Newton MA (who just this weekend managed to score a K 5-1/2 that *is* a bedrock - gloat...) ---- Start of Message 58407 (thread 25374) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1999-02-24 23:41:00 Subject: Re: Needed: Help to ID father of bastard plane On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:04:21 -0500 Jim Cook writes: >George Langford, Sc.D. cries out: > . The lateral lever has the inscription, "PAT. FEB. >3-9X". > >George, >I can't quite visualize the batmobility of the screw holding the >cutter to the chip breaker (though I love the sound of it), but >I believe Sargent made a large percentage of the "KK" planes. I >have a KK 5 that shows a similar symptom of almost looking right, >but the mating between the frog and the receiver doesn't appear to >be correct, and tends to rock a bit from front to back. The early >Sargent planes do have the same type of frog receiver as the early >Stanleys. Jim is on to something as that is a Sargent patent. Regards, Steve ++++ End of thread 25374 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25375 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58394 (thread 25375) ---- From: "Kelly Cox" Date: 1999-02-24 20:21:00 Subject: Fuzzy on scrapers Esteemed Galoots: I'm sure this topic has come up before, but I'll ask again anyway... I get mixed results when using a scraping tool like a #80 or a #112 (cabinet scraper and scraper plane respectively, Jeff). Sometimes I get a nice smooth surface, but more often I get a surface that looks scratched and fuzzy. From directly above, the surface looks ok but looking at the wood at a low angle, I can see the fuzziness and scratches on the surface. The thing that surprises me is that in both cases, I am not producing just dust from the wood, but nice thin shavings (lots of them). I've tried this on both cherry and maple with the same results. The first time I noticed it was with the #80, which I had burnished with the back of a paring chisel. I honed off the burr and re-burnished it with an oval burnisher (I oiled both the chisel and the oval burnisher). After raising the burr again I found that the scraper worked fine. No fuzz. So I tried burnishing the blade for my #112; I honed off any existing burr (I'm having no luck getting the cheap Kunz scraper blade I picked up from Woodcraft flat along the whole back, so I honed off the burr with a slipstone). I had previously honed the bezel of the scraper with a medium diamond stone, so I went straight for the burnisher. Raised a nice burr along the entire blade. Put the blade in the #112, tried some shavings on maple; nice wide and thin shavings. Fuzzy scratchy looking surface. What gives? I even tried polishing the burr slightly on some 2000 grit SS paper, and I still get a poor surface. The really confusing thing is that I get a nice surface with a plain bare scraper which I honed and burnished about six months ago and haven't messed with since. Sure is hard on the thumbs, though.... TIA for the help! Kelly Cox Madison, WI ++++ End of thread 25375 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25376 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58399 (thread 25376) ---- From: "Justin A. Haber" Date: 1999-02-24 21:10:00 Subject: Underhill Books - Boston Area Deals Boston Area Galoots: The New England Mobile Book Fair, in Newton, currently has all of Roy's books in the remainder section at $7.98 each. There are more of some titles than of others, notably lots of the Woodwright's Apprentice. A caution, they also have them, in shrink wrap, at full price, less their usual discount, in the woodworking section. --Justin ++++ End of thread 25376 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25377 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58400 (thread 25377) ---- From: ralph.brendler@a... (Ralph Brendler) Date: 1999-02-24 21:08:00 Subject: Review of the new MWTCA database? Is anybody on the list actually using the 2.0 MWTCA database? I'd like an impartial review of the features and usability if possible. No offense to Todd and Eric and other galoots that I know spent a lot of time on the project, but I was extremely disappointed with the poor data organization and usability of the original beta. If the design of the official release hasn't changed substantially, I'll skip the $40 and continue working with my homegrown database. I think the world of the MWTCA, and I really hope they can make this work. ralph ---- Start of Message 58427 (thread 25377) ---- From: FrankSronce Date: 1999-02-25 05:20:00 Subject: Re: Review of the new MWTCA database? Ralph, I tried to use it for a while. I have about 100 tools on it - mostly planes. I haven't been too impressed - and haven't messed with it lately. I am not sure how much of the problem is with the program and how much stems from my lack of computer literacy. I didn't have much trouble entering data (although I never figured out a logical, searchible place to put Stanley plane numbers), but I didn't come up with a way to find specific types of planes by searching (to locate and print out a list of Bed Rocks, or a list of #3 planes, for example) - or just to find a specific plane in the database unless I knew its record number. Maybe if the program was like the commercial programs you buy which have instructions, examples, help, etc. it would be more useful to barely marginal computer users such as myself, but I assume that would be very time-consuming and expensive - and I understand an enormous amount of effort has already been put into this program. I would definitely like to hear from some other users. Someone who knows more about access programs may have found it much more useful than I have. Frank (heading for Canton Flea market tomorrow - expecting 79 degrees) Ralph Brendler wrote: > > Is anybody on the list actually using the 2.0 MWTCA database? I'd like an > impartial review of the features and usability if possible. > > No offense to Todd and Eric and other galoots that I know spent a lot of > time on the project, but I was extremely disappointed with the poor data > organization and usability of the original beta. If the design of the > official release hasn't changed substantially, I'll skip the $40 and > continue working with my homegrown database. > > I think the world of the MWTCA, and I really hope they can make this work. > > ralph ++++ End of thread 25377 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25378 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58401 (thread 25378) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-02-24 21:16:00 Subject: RE: Ben's Mill Speaking of Ben's Mill, I noticed this wonderful old shop in "The Workshop Book" some time ago. I have tried to get my hands on a copy of the video but to buy one was going to cost somewhere between $80.00 and $100.00 over the internet. I did some research and found the original report on the internet which turned out to be very interesting. If any Galoots want to look it up, Go to: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/hhquery.html and do a search for: "Thresher,Ben,Mill," The result page will have a link to the report (The resulting link is a temporary link so I can't just give you a URL to the report). The photos and drawings have not yet been digitized, but the report was very interesting to those among us who like to read about history and such. I highly recommend! If you want to see some of the drawings and pictures of the shop, get your hands on a copy of "The Workshop Book". Keith Rucker Tifton, GA -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Ford [mailto:bford@s...] Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 12:54 PM To: Oldtools Subject: Ben's Mill (was Village Carpenter) Friends, Bugbear gives us some tantalizing snippets from The Village Carpenter that get my galoot blood racing. The rate of work in particular struck a chord with me. "work-rates are REALLY high * a girl's "travelling clothes box". "... it involved planing all the wood, and dovetailing each angle. The finished box was fitted with lock and key and iron handles at each end". This was "reckoned a day's work" * "The making of a gate was considered a day's work for a qualified carpenter, and was expected to be done in the ten hours which at that time constituted a day of labour. No one ever suggested that it was possible to make one in less time. The oak was hard with long seasoning, and all the work - planing, morticing, tenoning and fitting in of the rails - was done by hand" I checked out a great video from the public library of a 1981 Odyssey (PBS) program entitled "Ben's Mill." It's about this guy, Ben, who owns and works a water-powered mill in Vermont. He does black smithing and woodworking, making what ever the town folk need or want. He bought the mill in 1941. The water turbine in the pen stock runs a line shaft that powers a table saw, buzz planer (jointer), thickness planer, power hammer and other tools. The video shows him making several projects including a wooden horse-drawn sleigh and a stock tank. Lots of great close ups of him using a mortising gauge, draw knife, etc. One thing that impressed me was that this stock tank (which is a barrel 8' in diameter and about 3' high) took him a day to complete from rough-sawn lumber to finished tank -- including a coat of paint. Even with the same tools, I would have to figure about a week to knock something that big out, if I could have a full week. I think of my projects and "to-do" list and realize that theses old boys could knock this stuff out in a week or two. Meantime, I'm just hoping to get it done in my life time (or my wife's, since most of the stuff on there is at her request). I'm to the point in my woodworking where I feel confident tackling almost any project, the difference is it will just take me four or five times as long as one of these old timers. ++++ End of thread 25378 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25379 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58402 (thread 25379) ---- From: "Comstock" Date: 1999-02-24 21:41:00 Subject: perfection mitre box esteemed Galoots Has anyone used or would anyone want to use a perfection mitre box? I have access to one and would like to know if they make a good user or are they better left as a shelf for tool display? Patrick P ++++ End of thread 25379 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25380 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58403 (thread 25380) ---- From: David Strommen Date: 1999-02-24 18:14:00 Subject: Re: OLDTOOLS digest 3885 Sure! I'll send you one of the large chunks - I bet they weigh 300lbs - about killed me to roll them up a ramp into my trailer. Just rolled them off and let them thud. I'll throw a few in my backseat and drop them at ups. ;^) Dave Strommen (teaching tomorrows Galoots!) Elkhart, IN >Juat send that pesky short stuff to me and I will share it with Bruce and he >can make some mini Shaker Oval Boxes out of it! >Some small tables! >lots of Pucky Ducks - unpainted of course :) >Aaron taak >David Strommen wrote: >> Fellow Galoots! >> > >A coworker the other day mentioned to anyone interested that she had > >some firewood that was free for the taking. Being a bottom feeder at > >heart I drove over to take a look. The firewood turned out to be cherry > >that had the darkest color I have ever seen! > >> They built this new house and PAID someone to cut this beautiful 35" > >diameter tree into 20" chunks! UGH! Think I need to lay down....... > >> Well I now have about 20 of these chunks sitting in my driveway. > >> The tree was live when cut - 2-3 months ago. Question is what do I do > >to keep them from checking? (some are checking already) (snip) ++++ End of thread 25380 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25381 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58410 (thread 25381) ---- From: "George Langford, Sc.D." Date: 1999-02-25 03:31:00 Subject: Re: Glues Hi Galoots ! with apologies to the original poster ... My personal experience with resorcinol (sp. ?) glue is that I made a mahogany (swietenia) bookcase forty years ago with the stuff, and not one joint has shown the slightest sign of weakening, including the plain (unreinforced) miter joints at the top corners, where the sides meet the top. It has been picked up & carried by those joints without mishap. That's good glue. Best regards, George Langford in dark SE PA still at amenex@e... ++++ End of thread 25381 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25382 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58414 (thread 25382) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-02-25 01:44:00 Subject: plastic resin glue Since it was mentioned, here's what I know of this stuff. Built a boat with it. You mix into a brown foam looking gunk. This glue does not take stain or go away except with paint as far as I know. I used cloth in the joints becaust this stuff has zero gap filling capabilities. Wears like iron though. I broke 2 pieces of wood on the boat and no loosening of joints, or leaks. Good for outdoors. yours Scott * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, 63742 Applegate Dr., Happy Camp, CA 96039 * scottg@s... PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/ ++++ End of thread 25382 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25383 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58422 (thread 25383) ---- From: "HALL, HAYWARD" Date: 1999-02-25 03:46:00 Subject: RE: Hewing axes - Books I think these are the 2 books you mentioned: http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2V6PEXTL9P& mscssid=4RAFT0EARLS12HKG00LHRNKKGTGHFVFE&pcount=0&isbn=0345301447 http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2V6PEXTL9P& mscssid=4RAFT0EARLS12HKG00LHRNKKGTGHFVFE&pcount=0&isbn=0521447720 Hayward Hall Springfield MO > -----Original Message----- > From: Phil and Debbie Koontz [SMTP:pdknz@j...] > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 8:02 PM > To: oldtools@l... > Subject: Hewing axes > > Well, acute ones; > > I got out my hewing hatchets this week. One of them needed a handle, and > I wasn't quite sure how I wanted the handle to fit. But let's start with > a little digression. > > When I think of hewing axes (hatchets?), I think of George Sturt's > excellent observation of the woodworker's craft, The Wheel Wright's Shop. > > Another book about the wood worker's trade (I think it was one of Eric > Sloane's; sorry to be so vague), mentions a block knife as another of the > main tools. I have never seen one, by the way; I wonder what happened to > them? > ++++ End of thread 25383 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25384 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58425 (thread 25384) ---- From: Howard Slack Date: 1999-02-25 04:23:00 Subject: Black Walnut Cleaning With all the posts about black walnut being good eating but a lot of work, here are a few tips (although it's probably like sharpening blades - there are a hundred ways to do it, and they all work). Required tools: wooden club, hammer Other stuff: plastic gloves, VERY old clothes, wheelbarrow, wire screen on a frame, potato bags, tin can, patience 1. Leave the walnuts laying around the yard until the husks turn soft and black. 2. Go around with a club and plastic gloves. Beat the nuts enough to pull the hard nut away from the rotten husk, and gather them all up. If you don't wear gloves, you WILL be sorry - walnut stain is very persistent and I doubt that anything but time will take it off your skin. Even time won't get it out of your clothes. 3. Put them all in a wheelbarrow or some kind of tub, and flood them with water. 4. Throw all the floaters away - they're hollow. 5. Get the rest of them as clean as you can, sloshing them around in the water. Drain the water and refill until the water doesn't get so dirty. 6. Spread them out on some kind of framework with wire mesh. My father-in-law used an old screen door, but found that the water doesn't drain away very well because the holes are so small. Hardware wire mesh is better. Spray them down with water. They should be pretty clean by now. Let them dry on the wire screen in the sun. 7. When dry, bag them up in potato bags so they can get plenty of air, and hang them up to dry somewhere. Forget about them. 8. Much later, after they have dried, crack them. I have always used a sawed-off tin can and a hammer. You smash the nut with the hammer but the tin can keeps the pieces from flying all over the garage. I have heard that vise grips can be used, which sounds interesting but I haven't tried it. 9. Every time you smash a nut, throw the whole thing in a larger container. Then go through the mess at your leisure (what's that!?) to separate out the nut meats from the busted shells. 10. If you have a fireplace or stove, the shells burn well. 11. Black walnut meat can be easily frozen in quart jars and used as needed. Try them in a pecan pie as a direct replacement. Howard Slack ---- Start of Message 58443 (thread 25384) ---- From: Phil and Debbie Koontz Date: 1999-02-25 13:20:00 Subject: Re: Black Walnut Cleaning Howard reminds me of a galootie project I made along this line. A giant nutcracker especially for black walnuts. Start with a piece of hardwood (I used Osage orange--is anyone surprised?), about 2 or 3 feet long, maybe 4" x 4" or a little less in cross section. That's the base. On one end, put a heavy u-bolt, with the nuts countersunk on the bottom of the stick so it will set flat. The handle of the nutcracker is a 1/2" pipe welded at right angles to a bearing that swings on the u-bolt (a pipe tee would work). It's a lot like the little plier devices that people keep on the coffee table for cracking nuts, except it's a yard long and weighs about 20 pounds. Those nuts are really hard! After this "tool" kicked around the house for a few years I gave it to a little old lady I met who was selling walnut meat for $3 a pound. She had been cracking them with a claw hammer, which sounded pretty heroic to me. Kids can use the big one. Phil Koontz It looks like its gonna be another day in Kansas ---- Start of Message 58496 (thread 25384) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-02-26 04:53:00 Subject: Re: Black Walnut Cleaning On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:23:23 -0500 Howard Slack writes: >With all the posts about black walnut being good eating but a lot of >work, here are a few tips (although it's probably like sharpening >blades >- there are a hundred ways to do it, and they all work). > >Required tools: wooden club, hammer >Other stuff: plastic gloves, VERY old clothes, wheelbarrow, wire >screen >on a frame, potato bags, tin can, patience > >1. Leave the walnuts laying around the yard until the husks turn soft >and black. >2. Go around with a club and plastic gloves. Beat the nuts enough to >pull the hard nut away from the rotten husk, and gather them all up. >If >you don't wear gloves, you WILL be sorry - walnut stain is very >persistent and I doubt that anything but time will take it off your >skin. Even time won't get it out of your clothes. A common alternative to this is to spread the walnuts out in the driveway and run them over with the family automobile. No doubt some on this list would prefer to use a horse and buggy. ++++ End of thread 25384 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25385 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58431 (thread 25385) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-02-25 06:49:00 Subject: WTB--big brace I am looking for a strong 12" or preferably, 14" brace . Something that will really torque, with strong jaws in good shape. If interested, I might be willing to trade a very good condition Dunlap 10" brace that still has the handle decal. I am in a quandry. It is in very good shape---but I am scared to use it because of that darn decal. ---- Start of Message 58459 (thread 25385) ---- From: Chris Dunn Date: 1999-02-25 18:10:00 Subject: Re: WTB--big brace John H. Lederer wrote: > > I am looking for a strong 12" or preferably, 14" brace . Something that will really torque, with strong jaws in good shape. > > If interested, I might be willing to trade a very good condition Dunlap 10" brace that still has the handle decal. I am in a quandry. It is in very good shape---but I am scared to use it because of that darn decal. John, I wouldn't worry too much about using a decalled Dunlap brace - aside from the one I've stashed (tee-hee), I see 4 or 5 a year in the wild! If you'd like, I could get the next one I see for you - then you could have your user decalled Dunlap brace AND your collector decalled Dunlap brace ....... ;^) Chris ---- Start of Message 58462 (thread 25385) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-02-25 18:41:00 Subject: Re: WTB--big brace > > > I wouldn't worry too much about using a decalled Dunlap brace - > aside from the one I've stashed (tee-hee), I see 4 or 5 a year in > the wild! > > > Well that is a comfort. I'll start using the Dunlap. Now, I need reassurance on my other decal trepidation. It is a Stanley 8C in very nice condition. It has half a circular green stanley decal on the tote. It is my favorite plane, since I need a big plane to scale to the size of my mistakes. But I feel guilty each time I use it because I know I am wearing that decal away. Perhaps this means that I have been much too cocksure in assuring myself that I am a user and not collector. I do, of course, use every single one of the 8 drawknives that seem to have accumulated. Or at least I will some day. When the weather's better. After I have built a shave horse. Soon. All of them. Because I am a user and not a collector. The spokeshaves too. I'll use them all. Just need the right project. A user needs a selection to choose from. That's all it is. I am just a user with several drawknifes and spokeshaves to choose from. And mortise chisels, of course. And saws. ---- Start of Message 58470 (thread 25385) ---- From: Jimmy Reina Date: 1999-02-26 08:01:00 Subject: Re: WTB--big brace John, Life is too short. Use the plane. Even Queen Elizabeth puts on the crown jewels and walks around once in awhile. Do you think she worries about stains from her styling gel? How much do you think that decal adds to the value of your plane? 15 bucks? Jimmy Reina ps sorry to be such a wiseguy. If you want to be conservative about it, make (or buy) a spare handle, and put the decalled one in drawer(or a safedeposit box). Just use the plane. John H. Lederer wrote: > > > > > > > I wouldn't worry too much about using a decalled Dunlap brace - > > aside from the one I've stashed (tee-hee), I see 4 or 5 a year in > > the wild! > > > > > > > > Well that is a comfort. I'll start using the Dunlap. > > Now, I need reassurance on my other decal trepidation. It is a Stanley 8C in very nice condition. It has half a circular green stanley decal on the tote. > > It is my favorite plane, since I need a big plane to scale to the size of my mistakes. But I feel guilty each time I use it because I know I am wearing that decal away. > > Perhaps this means that I have been much too cocksure in assuring myself that I am a user and not collector. > > I do, of course, use every single one of the 8 drawknives that seem to have accumulated. Or at least I will some day. When the weather's better. After I have built a shave horse. Soon. All of them. Because I am a user and not a collector. The spokeshaves too. I'll use them all. Just need the right project. A user needs a selection to choose from. That's all it is. I am just a user with several drawknifes and spokeshaves to choose from. And mortise chisels, of course. And saws. > > -- > Regards, > > John Lederer > A User! A User! Not a collector! > > -- ++++ End of thread 25385 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25386 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58441 (thread 25386) ---- From: OldTools@a... Date: 1999-02-25 12:50:00 Subject: Re: Orange frogs and other orange parts. The orange painted parts on Stanley planes was an interesting and short run attempt at visibility. I have seen all the bench plane #1 to 8 with orange frogs. And remember Bed Rocks in sizes 2, 4, 4 1/2 and 5 but assumed that all exist. The planes do not always match up with the type studies. Most at first glance look to be from the 1930 -32 era but on closer look seem to have parts that can go each side of that date. Remember during this time period sales had to have been slow and the orange paint must have been intended to increse sales and get rid of parts. Also, the front office at Stanley never gave the assembly folks the latest type study. And if that was not enough, the powers to be at least in the lesser brands were changing the finish on tools as often as twice a year. So it is reasonable to assume that a batch or two of parts got painted and worked in to production over a few years. Stanley used a first in last out inventory system. To give them a date I use 1930 as I think that was about when they first showed. Other tools exist with the orange finish. The 9 1/2 block plane was produced with an orange front knob and mouth adjuster. These are rare to start with and rarer still because the location was subject to a lot of wear. The paint on the block is more like a japanning ie a built up finish with depth. The bench planes could be paint and in the cases I have seen it is always applied over black japanning. All orange tools are rare and do have greater collector value. But remember to find perfect paint on a worn out tool is a rare find indeed. Clarence Blanchard The Fine Tool Jounal Brown Auction Service. e mail to CEB@F... ---- Start of Message 58450 (thread 25386) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-02-25 15:44:00 Subject: Re: Orange frogs and other orange parts. At 7:50 AM -0500 2/25/99, Clarence Blanchard wrote: [snip] >The 9 1/2 block plane was produced >with an orange front knob and mouth adjuster. >These are rare to start with and >rarer still because the location was subject to a lot of wear. So that's it! Some time back I snagged a 9 1/2 in a house auction that had orange paint on the knob/screw, and traces on the slotted cam lever underneath the knob. I thought at the time that it was an owner's misguided effort at ID, to reduce unauthorized "borrowing" of the tool. I thought about taking off all the orange, as "restoration," but when it became obvious that there was only bare metal underneath, I left it. Now, thanks to Clarence, I'm glad I did. As he notes, it is worn, but especially in the depression in the knurled knob, mostly intact. This plane has no "9 1/2" number on it, has MADE IN USA cast under the adjuster, and has a later SW ("AA") mark on the iron (and factory striations until I honed it-minor gloat). IOW, pretty much conforms to Type 19 (1930-42) of the type study in the Walter book. That is consistent with the 1930-32 frame for orange parts that Clarence mentions. So thanks, Clarence, for this bit of information. And might I add that it's good to be talking (and reading) about TOOLS on the oldTOOLS list. I'll admit to wandering astray of the list charter myself now and then, but given the volume of traffic, I for one hereby commit myself to resist the temptation to feed discussions of balooning insects, forest resources, walnut processing, chemicals, lawnmowing (remember that one?) and a bunch of other stuff that may seem interesting to people who are also interested in old tools and handtool woodworking, but which are clearly outside the charter. Mentioning philosophy, history, bugs, nuts, acids, ships, and whathaveyou in the *context* of discussions of tools is fine. Allowing off topic discussions to take on a life of their own is the problem, IMHO. Maybe we could even entice some of the other tool experts and veterans lurking out there to participate more, if the charter were adhered to a little more closely. And maybe the Moms wouldn't have to act like police, if the membership policed itself a little more tightly in this regard. Tom Holloway, admiting past errors, and pledging to stay on the path of tool-ness, etc. ---- Start of Message 58454 (thread 25386) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-02-25 15:58:00 Subject: Re: Orange frogs and other orange parts. OldTools@a... wrote: > > The orange painted parts on Stanley planes was an interesting and short run > attempt at visibility. I have seen all the bench plane #1 to 8 with orange > > All orange tools are rare and do have greater collector value. But remember t o > find perfect paint on a worn out tool is a rare find indeed. I came across an all orangle #3 a few weeks ago. I thought it was a repaint, there was even orange paint on the lower portion of the lateral adjuster. The frog was obviously painted after the lateral adjuster was added. This couldn't be a real orange stanley could it? I would not have expected stanley to be that sloppy. Dan ++++ End of thread 25386 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25387 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58444 (thread 25387) ---- From: "Rodgers Charles" Date: 1999-02-25 14:00:00 Subject: WTB: Machining Services Galoots: After Mike Lindgren's post about finishing his chute board, I realized that I still have the 51/52 castings I got from Rob Kempinski ~1 year ago. Having never done any metal working, I foolishly thought I could do this myself. I read the part about it being "a relatively easy job", but neglected to see the qualifying statement "if you have metal working experience & equipment". I quickly saw the light when I received the shipment from Rob. I contacted a couple of people off-list about getting them completed, but no luck. I've also talked to a couple of local machine shops and the bottom line is that, even if I could talk them into tearing down the set-ups they have now (mostly engine rebuilding), I would have to take a second mortgage to finance it. One shop flatly refused to even consider it and the second wanted $500 up-front money, with balance due at completion. I thought that was somewhat high. At Mike's suggestion, I'm posting this to the porch. Anybody willing to take this on? I also have a complete Stanley #6C as the donor, and would gladly donate whatever parts are left over to your favorite old tool charity (your shop??). Thanks, Charlie Rodgers Clinton, Maryland ++++ End of thread 25387 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25388 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58446 (thread 25388) ---- From: "HALL, HAYWARD" Date: 1999-02-25 14:33:00 Subject: Axe showing signs of 'Heavy Use' :) Hehehe - check this out on E$ay. A remarkable example of the rare, "S" eyed hatchet :). http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=68753193 Hayward Hall Springfield MO ++++ End of thread 25388 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25389 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58449 (thread 25389) ---- From: "Peterson, Samuel L." Date: 1999-02-25 15:20:00 Subject: 2in1 Vise idea Gentle Galoots, I have a large workbench, onto which is mounted an old quick release vise on the right front corner. While this is very handy for shooting boards, I still would like a vise to clamp boards tightly onto the bench. I believe this is why many benches have two vises; a tail vise and a front vise. Why couldn't I mount my front vise onto a metal plate that would allow the vise to swing into the front position or into a side position? This would mean that there would have to be a locking pin to keep the mechanism "in place" and I would also lose the corner of the bench. What I like about this idea is the fact that I could do all vise functions from the right part of the bench. It seems like I always work at this end anyway, and then there wouldn't be an additional vise to get in the way. It would be cheaper also. :^) Please feel free to save me from myself! Sam Peterson Columbia, Missouri 60 degrees and sunny! ---- Start of Message 58456 (thread 25389) ---- From: MisterMatt@a... Date: 1999-02-25 16:43:00 Subject: Re: 2in1 Vise idea Hi Sam and the assembled porch dwellers, Just my 2 cents, but the mechanism to keep the vise locked in both positions could be somewhat tricky, and would more then likely have a bit of slop in the mechanics. So, you'd end up with that grand enemy of accurate work - the Jack of All Trades / Master of None; which means you're bound to have a versatile vise that can do everything, but none of it particularly well. We all tend to buy "the right tool for the right job." At least that's how we justify owning the vast variety of things we do, so perhaps having dedicated vises for their intended purposes is a logical extension of this concept. Besides, if you follow Tony Seo's formula, you won't be a vise collector until you own at least three, so you have nothing to worry about yet. Enjoy! Matt Glass - NYCity Galoot ---- Start of Message 58492 (thread 25389) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-26 02:02:00 Subject: Re: 2in1 Vise idea Peterson, Samuel L. wrote: > Why couldn't I mount my front vise onto a metal plate that > would allow the vise to swing into the front position or into > a side position? This would mean that there would have to > be a locking pin to keep the mechanism "in place" and I > would also lose the corner of the bench. > > What I like about this idea is the fact that I could do all vise > functions from the right part of the bench. It seems like I > always work at this end anyway, and then there wouldn't > be an additional vise to get in the way. It would be cheaper > also. :^) Please feel free to save me from myself! Be sure to let us know how it works!!! ;-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) Califon, NJ, USA wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 58493 (thread 25389) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-26 02:05:00 Subject: Re: 2in1 Vise idea MisterMatt@a... wrote: > if you follow Tony Seo's formula, you won't be a vise collector until > you own at least three, so you have nothing to worry about yet. Uh-oh... I guess I gotta start worrying. I have 5 vices (that I can recall), none of which are installed on anything - they're all laying on the floor of the cluttered area of the basement that only I have the courage to refer to as my "Shop". And I'm still looking for the right kind of vise for the new bench that I'll build soon (no - really, I'm gonna build it - honest!). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) Califon, NJ, USA wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ++++ End of thread 25389 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25390 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58451 (thread 25390) ---- From: "Peterson, Samuel L." Date: 1999-02-25 15:54:00 Subject: 40 vs. 40 1/2 Gentle Galoots, As Tom Holloway graciously put it, we should stay on charter. Here is my contribution. I have had a #40 and it was nice. A while back, I moved to a 40 1/2. It is a bit wider. Was there a specific reason that Stanley would produce both a #40 and #40 1/2? Different applications? Marketing gimmick? Inquiring minds want to know! Sam Peterson Columbia, MO Can't wait for the March 14th MWTCA local meet in Louisiana, MO! ++++ End of thread 25390 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25391 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58452 (thread 25391) ---- From: Loganftp@a... Date: 1999-02-25 15:53:00 Subject: Need help stuffing an infill GG's I need your help making the stuffing/filling portion of an infill smoother. I picked up a bare infill smoother casting from an auction and I'm just getting roundtoit. OK, stop snickering down there - its only been two months so far. Anyways, I've got Kingshotts book and he shows a drawing of what I would call a closed handle design. Having seen and fondled a grand total of 4 infill planes I'm kinda in the dark about making the infill. Unfortunately, our friend Jim only shows a side view - the user is left to interpret the rest. Is the rear infill usually one big hunk-o-wood? I'm thinking since I have some nice 2" thick salvaged mahogany I could make it in two pieces - sorta like a base and then a key or a dovetail for the handle. Haven't even thought about the front bun/knob yet - any thoughts? Oh, one more thing what about grain orientation? Which way should it be heading for strength? As always many thanks for all of your help! Dave Tobbe Michigaloot - 3 new inches of white stuff this morning ---- Start of Message 58464 (thread 25391) ---- From: Carl W Muhlhausen Date: 1999-02-25 18:26:00 Subject: Re: Need help stuffing an infill Loganftp@a... wrote: As one of the original "let's make an infill from a SJBTC casting" galoots who has yet to finish it, I feel eminently qualified to answer. I exchanged some email with the MofA at the time and he informed me that many infills are stuffed with several pieces of wood, rather than a single carved piece. I got as far as making the rough infills. I made a closed handle tote because I like the style, it's stronger, and I have small, some might say dainty, (but deceptively powerful), hands. I used 4/4 Bolivian rosewood and sandwiched three pieces together - two side pieces glued to the closed handle in the center. I haven't finished it, and the infill seems to have shrunk a bit over time, so when and if I ever get around to finishing it, I'll probably redo the tote. I'd still use a three piece sandwich. I forget how I oriented the grain, but I know I tried to minimize the amount of short grain. Patrick warned me that a lot of the open handled infills have cracked and split totes. As far as the "bun" goes, I think the traditional one on the infill smoothers leaves much to be desired. On my real infill (part of the reason I never finished the SJBTC kit) it's pretty uncomfortable and hard to get a good hold of. The Stanley knobs are better IMHO. One of the FWW publications on handtools has an article on infills (or was it Kingshott?), where the author put a rounded knob on top of the infill. It looks a lot more comfortable than the "bun". One thing making the infill on the kit did was give me a lot of respect for the craftsmanship that went into fitting the infills into the steel bodies. On the nice ones I've seen the infill sits flush over the sides of the body - kind of like it was poured into the body. Getting a fit like that takes some real technique and ability. Hope this helps. Carl ---- Start of Message 58507 (thread 25391) ---- From: Tony Blanks Date: 1999-02-26 10:27:00 Subject: Re: Need help stuffing an infill Dave Tobbe asked, >I need your help making the stuffing/filling portion of an infill smoother. >Is the rear infill usually one big hunk-o-wood? I'm thinking since I have >some nice 2" thick salvaged mahogany I could make it in two pieces - sorta >like a base and then a key or a dovetail for the handle. Hi Dave, I have now stuffed two infills and did both with a single block for the bun and 3 pieces for the tote and rear cheeks. Both are "overstuffed", ie the infill timber comes over the top edge of the metal body. It took a lot of fitting (I'm glad I wasn't doing that for a living on piecework) but I'm very happy with the result. My late A5 Norris, (bought later) is stuffed the same way. On the other hand the user made infill jointer I bought has a tote set into a single thick piece of stffing and secured with a couple of screws driven into the underside of the tote. Put another way, you have to remove the rear stuffing to get at these screws, Fortunately the infill is screwed through the sides of the plane. So, it's up to you. I think the bun would look better as one piece, but it is easy to hide "lamination" in the tote infill. Fitting the infill neatly is painstaking, but remember you will be looking at it for the rest of your life, as will your descendants with luck. Take your time and enjoy. Regards, Tony B Hobart, Tasmania Still seeking dowelling auger bits ---- Start of Message 58510 (thread 25391) ---- From: Loganftp@a... Date: 1999-02-26 14:10:00 Subject: Re: Need help stuffing an infill In a message dated 2/26/99 8:10:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, arw@t... writes: > Dave wants stuffing.... and that's what I got! > > ..snip per FAQ .. > > > > I need your help making the stuffing/filling portion of an infill smoother. > > > Roughly and quickly speaking, the tote is morticed or dovetailed into the > rear > block, so that you have optimal grain direction. The infill grain would be > parallel to the sole. Thanks to everyone who responded to my question! A total of 10 people took the time to pen some very helpful responses. As Richard and everyone else so eloquently stated, I learned that most infills are stuffed with multiple pieces of wood rather than one large block. That will make a huge difference in how I make this thing. Also, grain orientation is typically parallel to the sole, including the front knob. Again, just the opposite of what I was going to do. Lots of good ideas for fitting and attaching the stuffing as well. You guys (and girls) are the best! Dave Tobbe Michigaloot - gonna be fillin' and fittin' this weekend ---- Start of Message 58513 (thread 25391) ---- From: Richard Danzey Date: 1999-02-26 14:29:00 Subject: Re: Need help stuffing an infill I wonder, how much like seating/bedding a rifle works in a wooden stock, is seating an infill in a metal plane? Don't mean to start any major thread. I've read about the process with a rifle--but so long ago I don't remember it... danz Tony Blanks wrote: > > Dave Tobbe asked, > > >I need your help making the stuffing/filling portion of an infill smoother. > >Is the rear infill usually one big hunk-o-wood? I'm thinking since I have > >some nice 2" thick salvaged mahogany I could make it in two pieces - sorta > >like a base and then a key or a dovetail for the handle. > > Hi Dave, > > I have now stuffed two infills and did both with a single block for the bun > and 3 pieces for the tote and rear cheeks. Both are "overstuffed", ie the > infill timber comes over the top edge of the metal body. It took a lot of > fitting (I'm glad I wasn't doing that for a living on piecework) but I'm > very happy with the result. My late A5 Norris, (bought later) is stuffed > the same way. On the other hand the user made infill jointer I bought has > a tote set into a single thick piece of stffing and secured with a couple > of screws driven into the underside of the tote. Put another way, you have > to remove the rear stuffing to get at these screws, Fortunately the infill > is screwed through the sides of the plane. > > So, it's up to you. I think the bun would look better as one piece, but it > is easy to hide "lamination" in the tote infill. Fitting the infill neatly > is painstaking, but remember you will be looking at it for the rest of your > life, as will your descendants with luck. Take your time and enjoy. > > Regards, > > Tony B > Hobart, Tasmania > > Still seeking dowelling auger bits > > -- ---- Start of Message 58517 (thread 25391) ---- From: Louis Michaud Date: 1999-02-26 15:01:00 Subject: Re: Need help stuffing an infill >Richard and everyone else so eloquently stated, I learned that most infills >are stuffed with multiple pieces of wood rather than one large block... >Lots of good ideas for fitting and attaching the stuffing as well... >Dave Tobbe Hi Dave, How about posting a summary/synthesis of these ideas/techniques? I'm sure a lot of Galoots would appreciate, and I would not have to ask the same questions when I get to that slope... Louis Michaud Louis Michaud Bibliothecaire, Secteur science et technologie Service de la bibliotheque Universite du Quebec a Rimouski 300, allee des Ursulines Rimouski, Quebec Canada G5L 3A1 tel:(418)723-1986, poste 1213 fax:(418)724-1621 louis_michaud@u... ---- Start of Message 58555 (thread 25391) ---- From: Elp222@a... Date: 1999-02-26 21:57:00 Subject: Re: Need help stuffing an infill In a message dated 2/25/99 9:06:50 AM US Mountain Standard Time, Loganftp@a... writes: > I need your help making the stuffing/filling portion of an infill smoother. > I picked up a bare infill smoother casting from an auction and I'm just > gettin roundtoit. OK, stop snickering down there - > its only been two months so far. TONS OF LAUGHTER EXPLODING FROM THE PORCH. > Is the rear infill usually one big hunk-o-wood? I'm thinking since I have > some nice 2" thick salvaged mahogany I could make it in two pieces - sorta > like a base and then a key or a dovetail for the handle. In the infill I reconstructed (to many months to count) the rear section was in three pieces. The first was only as high as the metal, and had two pins running from side to side. It was slotted by a dado saw (table type) to allow the handle, which had the male portion to fit in the slot. The rear pin also went thru the handle. The third section is the top which overhung the metal sides. It was sloted to allow the cap iron screw to fit. Both the top and bottom sections front faces were angled to hold the blade. Erik ++++ End of thread 25391 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25392 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58453 (thread 25392) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-02-25 15:57:00 Subject: Mag report: April FWW Quick and dirty review of the "April" Fine Woodworking, just out: If anyone wonders about that Clarence Blanchard fellow who posted about orange parts on Stanley planes, there's a photo of him on p. 53 of this issue of FWW, in an article by Garrett Hack on the 15th Annual Intl. Tool Auction in Harrisburg, PA, reported in these pages last October. There is a nice shot of the Falconer coachmaker's plow that went for $22,500, but other photos are somewhat fuzzy. Also some shots of the lookers and buyers. Anyone else we know in those pictures? Our own David Tut-Tut-Tuttle has a brief review of the LN 98/99 side rabbets (p. 34). I'm wondering: In my bidness if you a review a book for publication you get to keep the review copy. Does it work that way in the tool trade? Unlike the last issue, this one is mostly non-galootish (like, more than you want to know about bet snaders), but Toshio Odate on Japanese mortising 104-108) is all by hand--a detailed treatment with good illustrations of technique. Finally, in their Wood Webs sidebar (p. 20) there is mention of Badger Pond http://www.wwforum.com that has two forums, one for tailed unmentionables, and "a smaller hand-tool-only forum called Neanderthal Haven." What's that all about?? Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 58457 (thread 25392) ---- From: Brian J Wilson Date: 1999-02-25 17:33:00 Subject: Re: Mag report: April FWW On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:57:50 -0500 (EST) Tom Holloway writes: >Quick and dirty review of the "April" Fine Woodworking, just out: Snip of Toms review. Just wanted to mention that you forgot about the article on making ball & claw feet lots of good info on carving. Brian J. Wilson Chevy Chase, Md. ++++ End of thread 25392 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25393 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58458 (thread 25393) ---- From: Brandon Ford Date: 1999-02-25 17:49:00 Subject: Chisel sets: There's a reason they're hard to find Galoots, Not that I'm getting tired of reading about the delicate flavor nuances of black vs. English walnut meats or anything... But how about something on topic, like old chisels. I'm thinking about sets in particular. I've wondered why complete (or even incomplete) sets of old chisels are so dang hard to find. Modern woodworking retailers often give a price break for buying a set of five or eight chisels at one time. Was that not the case in days past? Maybe someone with old catalogs can answer this. I think sets are rare because most old-timers bought them one at a time as needed. Case in point: my grandfather was a mechanic, machinist, and woodworker who died in the late 1920s. A couple of years ago my dad gave me some of his tools. His chisels consisted of a 1/4" Stanley 750, 1/2" Buck Bros. butt, 1" Stanley Everlasting, and a 2" Keen Kutter. A mixed bag, but they do the job, I know 'cause I put them to work on almost every project I make. Brandon Ford, Aberdeen, WA ---- Start of Message 58461 (thread 25393) ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1999-02-25 18:40:00 Subject: Re: Chisel sets: There's a reason they're hard to find Brandon Ford wrote: > > But how about something on topic, like old chisels. I'm thinking about > sets in particular. I've wondered why complete (or even incomplete) > sets of old chisels are so dang hard to find. > > (snip) > > I think sets are rare because most old-timers bought them one at a time > as needed. I think that's probably an accurate assumption. I have a handful of chisels that were my carpenter grandfathers, and they are a similar assorted lot to the ones you inherited. I think you also have to factor in the fact that these things were used and sharpened. And unlike a plane, which can have a replacement cutter, when you sharpen a chisel, you're sharpening away the tool itself. Ed ++++ End of thread 25393 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25394 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58460 (thread 25394) ---- From: "Greg JONES" Date: 1999-02-25 18:22:00 Subject: Woodie Question Gentle Galoots, Here's a newbie question for all of you. I recently picked up a New York Tool wooden jointer plane that I would like to fix up and use. (I can see a pattern starting to form here.) It's in pretty good shape, but the body is warped with the toe and heel curling up. I'll probably have to take off 3/16" to joint the sole flat and then I'll need to patch the mouth. Now for the question. The old guy that I bought it from was quite proud of the fact that he had put 2 coats of expensive oil-based polyurethane on it. Should I try to strip this off before doing anything else? I've never stripped a finish before and it sounds like poly requires a fairly nasty stripper to get it off. But, I'm afraid that the body will warp again if the sole is the only unsealed part of the plane. What do you think? Greg Jones Fort Wayne, IN ++++ End of thread 25394 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25395 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58463 (thread 25395) ---- From: "Ed O'Riordan" Date: 1999-02-25 18:50:00 Subject: WTB: Blade for Stanley 10 I need a blade for a Stanley 10. Anybody have one, vintage is not an issue? A new one is $16.20 from Garrett Wade, is it a waste of money to even consider a new one? Ed O' ---- Start of Message 58467 (thread 25395) ---- From: Ron Hock Date: 1999-02-25 19:12:00 Subject: Re: WTB: Blade for Stanley 10 We have a couple in stock. $35.00 each. > I need a blade for a Stanley 10. Anybody have one, vintage is not an issue? > A new one is $16.20 from Garrett Wade, is it a waste of money to even > consider a new one? Consideration is not a waste of money, but that new Stanley blade would likely be. ++++ End of thread 25395 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25396 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58465 (thread 25396) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-02-25 19:06:00 Subject: A Database for Your Tools Galoots, warning - long, boring and opinionated!!!!!! Several have asked about the MWTCA database for tool inventories. Som e have suggested other software such as a word processor. I'd like to ad my two cents. I first put my tools up on a Claris database quite a few years ago. I switched to MS Access when it became available (v1.0). PATINA has all its members and club business on Access. I like Access. But, I'm not suggesting that is the only product you should consider. I am suggesting that you should use database software and not spreadshe ets or word processors. I have many hundreds of items on my database. I didn't plan it that way and many of you won't either. And because planning isn't involved (!!!!) you can run into unplanned difficulties with software other than a database. The chief difficulties in using any record keeping system are gaining expertise in its use, actual data entry and its flexibility after you have gained expertise and done all that entry. When I first started the only "relational" database on a PC was something called Rbase - and it sneaked over to IBM compatibles from a DEC background. Truly UGLY! So, I used a word processor. I quickly learned that was not a good idea when I changed my mind about how I wanted things and needed to sort some things, reorder others and make different "reports". Hence, I'm suggesting that because data entry is so "difficult", time consuming, and will initially contain many "errors", don't waste your time on anything other than a database's flexibility to adjust to your evolving thinking. Now, having simplified how I actually use it over the years, I basicall y look at my "inventory" in two ways - by inventory number and by maker. I can look by any other field(s) and I sometimes look by type of tool, number of the tool and by patent date. I have other fields like cost (coded so only I and SWMBO can read it) and estimated value (so SWMBO knows not to be ripped off when I die). The point is that data entry is not easy and the more fields you have, the more difficult it becomes, particularly if you start from scratch when you already own hundreds of items. So, to keep the data entry "difficulties" down, keep the number of fiel ds to a minimum. For example, I have never been interested in "where" I bought a tool. I remember where for any length of time that matters for returns and after a year, who cares? Ok, some folks think they want to know what part of the country a tool can be found in or favors a particular type or brand of tool - but I bet you won't after a while. You collect long enough and you'll know it by experience long before the database becomes important for that info. As to learning the database - becoming expert, hindsight is 20/20 and there is no other way than to jump in and make some mistakes - said by an individual who has NEVER read directions or taken them from his boss. I find Access easy to learn. Just set up a database with 10-20 records in it and play to learn before you enter your 500 items. In terms of becoming expert, I believe in the "KISS" principle - that's Keep It Simple Stupid! Therefore, I've shunned the macros and other fancies in using Access for my inventory. I have a data entry form, a table view (the complete database), and several "canned" reports. I wrote a cost code (alphabetic) to dollars cost and summation routine, but deleted it when I realized someone else could potentially use it. A few tips in data entry. Paraphrasing the famous business quote, for a database to work as you want it to, the quote is "Consistency, Consistency, Consistency" Oh, you could write a fancy macro or table look up to help, but doing it by hand is easier to me. As an example, if you want all "Brown & Sharpe Mfg. Co." items to print out in a list one after the other, then you can't mistakenly enter the name on one tool as B&S and on another as Brown & Sharpe. It always has to be the same way, spaces, periods and capitals. Another example of consistency is how I enter things into my "Descripti on" field. I use this one field to contain the tools number(like Stanley #5), the size, condition, rarity and any special indications like "NIB". I use this one field because I don't believe you need separate fields for many items some folks seem to think necessary. But, in "Description", my entry is consistently formatted with "tool number, comma, size (always like this "7in." for 7 inches), comma," etc. By doing this level of consistency, I can find and print any item I want. I have some separate fields like tool-type, maker, and patent date that I use to find and list, for example, all Stanley SW #5, type xx, with patent date xx/xx/xx. Consistency is the key as often I want to find if I have a "L. S. Starrett" number xx versus a "The L. S. Starrett" number xx. Consistency of data entry is what makes this work, not fancy coding. One other suggestion. Having gone through several iteration of softwar e for my inventory, I find flexibility of the product important. Here is where Mr. Bill's MS Access has an advantage. It comports (exports to) well with Word, Excel, Word Perfect, Quatro Pro, and just about any other major brand. The first "Kentucky code" based word processor I used didn't export to anything other than the printer so I lost all my data entry when I upgraded! Also, in terms of the future, who knows what software you will be carrying with you to tool events in the future. But, because of its shear number of users, MS Access is likely to be "respected" by the new brands and be able to be imported. That means your damned hard data entry isn't lost if Big Bill becomes 5 baby Bills and then stumbles completely off the radar scope. I've not used the MWTCA database. Didn't need to. It has many well do ne features that attract folks. But, since one has to buy MS Access anyway to use it, I'd likely try to build a database myself so that I learn Access. You can always "import" to MWTCA later. But, if you use the MWTCA version, I'm still suggesting a KISS approach, not using all of it. Whatever, you decide now, remember, your thinking will evolve. Make su re you can change what you have done. In that, consistency of data entry and being able to upgrade from your former approach are paramount. *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * *********************************************** ++++ End of thread 25396 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25397 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58466 (thread 25397) ---- From: Tim Fuss Date: 1999-02-25 19:17:00 Subject: Re: Fully included ... Brent asked: > Could you elaborate a little on "blade may be fully included in > the handle" means? Well, actually, no. It turns out that my saw does not have this feature which Erv mentioned. Nor does it have the patent date on the medallion that Patrick mentioned. If I inferred correctly, the blade would have a cutout that corresponds to the cutout in the handle so that a portion of the blade was imbedded in the gripping part of the handle. Okay, Erv, how far off was I? ++++ End of thread 25397 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25398 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58468 (thread 25398) ---- From: Jimmy Reina Date: 1999-02-26 07:50:00 Subject: Re: The record 043 (Was Re: Skinny T&G (was Quick trip report) I bought one of these planes from a guy who really loved his edge tools. He took run of the mill Stanley planes and souped them up, even carving joystick-type handles for them. He made several of his own rabbet and specialty planes out of mixed woods and funky metal parts-to my eyes, they are folk art. If I can ever get around to photographing them, I am going to show them on my web page for all to see. As for the 43, this guy has a reground 3/4" multiplane cutter in it, and except for the fact that it hangs over off of the frog a bit, I don't see why it couldn't work. The blade clamp is open sided and I have fooled around putting various multiplane cutters in. It will clamp any of them.I guess the theory is that with wide cutters, one wouldn't have full frog support, but one generally takes pretty light cuts with this kind of plane anyway. There is also no locking notch gizmo to secure the locking notch at the top of the cutter.In theory, a wide cutter might get too much traction and want to pull out sideways without this lock.I haven't tried it, but somethin' tells me this old guy wouldnta done it iffn it didna work. As I write this, I am thinking about a Stanley #50 beading plane that I also have. Upon first examination, it looks like one could clamp multiplane cutters in this plane also, although one wouldn't be able to use the adjustin' mechanism. This could be a way of having a lightweight, multiplane, kind of a sports car. From my perspective, it could also be a way of moving all of these multiplane cutters. I 'll be in touch to let you know how it works. Jimmy Reina > > The record 43 - it's just the grooviest (a pun, Paddy) tool in the workshop. > > I really shouldn't drive up prices by telling you this again, but for drawer > > bottom grooves, small grooves as above, there is nothing else in my > workshop that comes close. - it works OK !! > > Originally supplied with three blades - 1/8, 3/16 and 1/4, you should watch > for the depth stop being present - often MIA, and that the fence rods are > straight - for some reason they are often bent - probably because these > got a lot of use. > I looked at three examples yesterday - 2 had the blade clamp missing, > one had bent rods, the third was actually made by Rapier, though it > had to have vome from the same mould - I just have to go and do a > type study on these. > Other points - earlier models use a thinner fence rod (bad?) but > thumbscrew type screws for the fence and depth stop screw. > Later models seem to have moved to a knurled head screw. personally > I prefer the flat thumbscrew as easier to use. These are almost toy > like to some of you. > > Oh prices - going wild, unfortunately. The poor examples I saw were > asking 40 Pounds, and that was incomplete, plating gone, and barely > usable for parts (I have a couple of orphans to look after) > > Bottom line - if you see one, buy one. > > Richard Wilson > Worcestershire, UK > > -- ---- Start of Message 58489 (thread 25398) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-26 01:45:00 Subject: Re: The record 043 (Was Re: Skinny T&G (was Quick trip report) Richard Wilson wrote: > The record 43 - it's just the grooviest (a pun, Paddy) tool in the workshop. > > I really shouldn't drive up prices by telling you this again, but for drawer > bottom grooves, small grooves as above, there is nothing else in my > workshop that comes close. - it works OK !! > > Originally supplied with three blades - 1/8, 3/16 and 1/4, you should watch How does this tool compare to the Satanley #50 light combination plane? (i.e., in terms of functionality, size, use, etc.?) Sounds kinda similar... (I'm only asking as I got me a Stanley #50... Late Galoota-Claus gift Gloat!) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) Califon, NJ, USA wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 58490 (thread 25398) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-26 01:55:00 Subject: Re: The record 043 (Was Re: Skinny T&G (was Quick trip report) Jimmy Reina wrote: > As I write this, I am thinking about a Stanley #50 beading plane that I > also have. Upon first examination, it looks like one could clamp > multiplane cutters in this plane also, although one wouldn't be able to > use the adjustin' mechanism. Gotta check the thickness of the cutters - just for experimentation, last night I descended into the pit of carnage that I dangerously refer to as my "shop", dug out my #50 and #45 to see if the #45 cutters would fit in the #50 - no dice, they're just a smidge too thick (a "smidge" is a technical term that experienced machinists use when they don't have a micrometer handy with which to generate empirical data). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) Califon, NJ, USA wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 58570 (thread 25398) ---- From: Jimmy Reina Date: 1999-02-27 14:52:00 Subject: Re: The record 043 (Was Re: Skinny T&G (was Quick trip report) I have a #45 with a box of cutters and they seem tofit my #50 fine. So I pulled the aforementioned box of new Record cutters and they fit the #50 groove also. My first guess is thst Stanley used several molds to cast these planes (both the 45 and 50), and made several more as time went on. Jimmy Reina William K. Taggart wrote: > > Jimmy Reina wrote: > > > As I write this, I am thinking about a Stanley #50 beading plane that I > > also have. Upon first examination, it looks like one could clamp > > multiplane cutters in this plane also, although one wouldn't be able to > > use the adjustin' mechanism. > > Gotta check the thickness of the cutters - just for experimentation, > last night I descended into the pit of carnage that I dangerously refer > to as my "shop", dug out my #50 and #45 to see if the #45 cutters would > fit in the #50 - no dice, they're just a smidge too thick (a "smidge" is > a technical term that experienced machinists use when they don't have a > micrometer handy with which to generate empirical data). ---- Start of Message 58679 (thread 25398) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-03-01 00:39:00 Subject: Re: The record 043 (Was Re: Skinny T&G (was Quick trip report) "William K. Taggart" wrote: > Richard Wilson wrote: > > > The record 43 - it's just the grooviest (a pun, Paddy) tool in the workshop . > > > > I really shouldn't drive up prices by telling you this again, but for drawe r > > bottom grooves, small grooves as above, there is nothing else in my > > workshop that comes close. - it works OK !! > > > > Originally supplied with three blades - 1/8, 3/16 and 1/4, you should watch > > How does this tool compare to the Satanley #50 light combination plane? > (i.e., in terms of functionality, size, use, etc.?) Sounds kinda > similar... I don't have a 043 to compare functionality and use with but it terms of size m y record 050 is quite a bit bigger than an 043. I assume the 050 is pretty much the same size as the stanley 50. The 043 looks so small I would bet you could probably use it one handed for most operations. Dan ++++ End of thread 25398 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25399 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58472 (thread 25399) ---- From: SSalbWW@a... Date: 1999-02-25 21:06:00 Subject: Norris A-2 Style? Does anyone have a picture and/or description of the Norris-style A-2? I've looked all over on the internet without success. Thanks alot. -Shannon Salb Washington, D.C. ---- Start of Message 58483 (thread 25399) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-02-25 23:09:00 Subject: RE: Norris A-2 Style? ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of ~ SSalbWW@a... ~ Sent: Thursday, February 25, 1999 9:07 PM ~ To: oldtools@l... ~ Subject: Norris A-2 Style? ~ ~ ~ Does anyone have a picture and/or description of the ~ Norris-style A-2? I've ~ looked all over on the internet without success. Thanks alot. ~ I've just put a pic on my home page, see Stop Press. Quality isn't brilliant, I fear. I could send a 300dpi if there is enormous demand. Hope it is Ok. I don't seem to be able to immediately check the results via Explorer 4. Jeff ---- Start of Message 58518 (thread 25399) ---- From: Loganftp@a... Date: 1999-02-26 15:03:00 Subject: Re: Norris A-2 Style? ~ Does anyone have a picture and/or description of the ~ Norris-style A-2? I've ~ looked all over on the internet without success. Thanks alot. Jeff wrote: > I've just put a pic on my home page, see Stop Press. > Quality isn't brilliant, I fear. I could send a 300dpi if there is > enormous demand. Well, the quality may not be brilliant but my potential gloat sure is... In the toe area of my aforementioned infill casting is cast No. 3. I was wondering who made this plane body but thought I had exceeded my limit of questions for the month. I think I have a Norris No. 3 infill body (hope - hope) and possible neener- neener. Man, that really made my Friday! Thanks, Dave Tobbe Michigaloot ++++ End of thread 25399 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25400 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58473 (thread 25400) ---- From: Darrell LaRue Date: 1999-02-25 21:22:00 Subject: Hollows & Rounds Galoots, [warning: longwinded newbie-H&R-user speculations and yer just darn lucky there ain't no ascii art in here] Seems there are a number of us who have acquired hollows & rounds recently, or who have been sitting on a pile of 'em waiting for the 'right project' to come along (a sure sign of a Galoot who is on the brink of being called a 'collector'). Many of us are real neophytes when it comes to using these things. I've tried my hand at a few bits of moulding just to see how they work. I've been pleasantly surprised at how good a job I can do, but I've also made a complete hash of some attempts. I'm gonna try to spend some more time just wasting scrap with my hollows & rounds in an effort to come to grips with the behaviour of these planes. I sometimes have trouble getting a good transition from the hollow to the round part of the profiles. I assume from what I've seen here on OldTools and in my few reference books (read bottom-feeder-user-buys-tools- instead-of-books) that I should try to find a pair of snipe bills to assist in shaping some parts of the mouldings. Too bad they're generally outside of bottom feeder range. Pushing the planes about: With no fence or depth stop you gotta pay a bit more (or at least different) attention to the job than if you were using a side bead, ogee, &cetera. I was following the ideas presented in Dunbar's "Restoring, Tuning & Using..." wherein he describes plowing V-grooves for the rounds to ride in, but instead of a V-cutter I used an ordinary plow iron. This seems to provide a good enough groove for the rounds to follow. I think I'll take one of my spare plow irons that's dull & pitted and grind it into a V profile as an experiment. Anybody else done this? Does it work better than a flat bottomed groove? How about battens instead of grooves? One of my Mathieson rounds has a label on the side that has been partly obliterated by running the plane against a batten [and the matching hollow has a nice crispy label, like it was never used against a batten]. Whatta you do with battens anyways? Temporarily nail them on? I don't suppose a couple of extra nail holes are going to worry the installer because they're gonna be pounding in a few anyways. But I digress (or should I say 'I post to OldTools' ;^)... When I'm having trouble with a transition (from H to R) I usually find that I'm leaving a 'track' (either a ridge or a groove) and no matter how many times I go over it I keep having the same problem. I've tried all the good old standby thought-producing methods (pace the floor, scratch the head, rub the chin, &cetera) but I cannot figure out what I'm doing wrong. Or even if I *am* doing it wrong. So after I get the profile close enough, I just take a scraper and clean up the transitions. Those curved scraper sets Lee Valley sells work pretty good for this (I get stuff like that for Xmas & birthday presents; normal bottom-feeder practice is to cut up an otherwise unusable saw blade for scraper stock). A question of aesthetics, possibly: Does it matter if you try and use different sizes next to each other (like a #10 hollow cutting next to a #14 round) or are you supposed to stick to symmetrical profiles? This might be a matter of good vs bad design, eh? Someone here pointed out a while back that the human eye was an excellent tool for measuring curves (i.e. you can tell if a sinuous profile is symmetrical just by lookin' at it). So maybe an uneven pair (like the #10H & #14R example above) would be an aesthetically poor choice in some applications. As a side note the profile of the sleigh bed panels I'm building [No , honest! I'll finish it THIS year, for SURE] turned out almost perfectly symmetrical, and all we did was draw up a full-size curve freehand so that it "looked good". And finally, a motivational element: Kathy's latest project is a small veneered wall cabinet. She wants a crown moulding around the top, and as she has seen some of the better test pieces I've made with the H&R's, it looks like I'll get to do some real moulding work. It's walnut with lacewood veneered panels. Should be fun. Note that she *hasn't* seen the not-so-good mouldings I've stuck. If that were the case, I might be replaced by a screaming devil-machine. *Ahem* [Darrell surrepetitiously boots a particularly badly done cyma recta under the bench; outta sight, outta mind, eh?]. My BIL is building new kitchen cabinets. Being a power-tool junkie, he is now wondering how on earth he's going to be able to make the crown mouldings for the new cabinets. He's already blown his budget as far as tools is concerned and cannot shell out for some [more] big, dangerous, fancy r**ter bits to make the trim. So Kathy says to her sister "Darrell can make any kind of moulding" (she's been assured that the pile of H&R's I've accumulated will do just that [uh oh, he says]). So now I also have 12 feet of crown to produce. In *hard maple* no less (why can't they use pine, eh?). I guess this serves as a warning to those of us who keep insisting that their rampant accumulation of oldtools is 'for use' instead of a 'collection'. When you keep insisting that these tools have been acquired in order to *build* things (rather than simply a hoarding reflex) you may someday be called upon to do exactly that [but I haven't tuned them / but I need more practice / but the set is incomplete / but ]. I guess that's about enough rambling for now. Has anyone out there got any pointers for us new members of the H&R Users Group? (apart from 'practice, practice, practice' ;^) Darrell Curator & Sole Proprietor of The Museum of The Transmundane ---- Start of Message 58474 (thread 25400) ---- From: Kenneth Stagg Date: 1999-02-25 21:50:00 Subject: Re: Hollows & Rounds Darrell LaRue wrote: > > When I'm having trouble with a transition (from H to R) I > usually find that I'm leaving a 'track' (either a ridge or > a groove) and no matter how many times I go over it I keep > having the same problem. Darrell, It seems to me that the only way that you can achieve the perfect transition without additional help (scrapers, sanding blocks, larger H&Rs) is if the arcs defined by the planes are tangent at their intersections. This should only happen under some pretty specific conditions regarding the radii of the arcs an d the positions of their respective centers. You can _help_ this along by taking *VERY* fine cuts (the relative positions of the centers change more slowly), bu t my guess is that it's a bit much to ask for. Scrapers look like a good answer. -Ken ++++ End of thread 25400 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25401 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58476 (thread 25401) ---- From: Aaron R Ionta Date: 1999-02-25 22:20:00 Subject: New Old Tool Scratch Beader can someone forward me the URL to the web page with the georgeous repro of the patented Scratch Beader made by oeof our very own Galoots Thanks Aaron taak OT content - thinking of putting some beads on some nice resawn mahogany ( Thanks Tom J 4 the slicing service! ) ---- Start of Message 58477 (thread 25401) ---- From: SSalbWW@a... Date: 1999-02-25 22:27:00 Subject: Re: New Old Tool Scratch Beader I don't have Kevin's web page handy, but his e-mail is kbrennan@u... I can tell you from first-hand experience that the beader is a pleasure to use and a keep-sake tool. Granted, as in all things there are a couple of areas that could be improved, but none of those minor points diminishes the joy of this tool. And if I can ever find a digital camera, I'll show ya'll my first project with the beader . Shannon Salb Washington, D.C. ++++ End of thread 25401 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25402 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58481 (thread 25402) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-25 22:59:00 Subject: MI social call? Comando trip to the state.... (in and out in 20 hours) I'll be looking for a place to kick back a (just one) Bourbon on Monday night at 9:30 pm in Maddison Heights (Stephnson&14 Mile) Open invite... I'll buy. ++++ End of thread 25402 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25403 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58484 (thread 25403) ---- From: Tim Rutherford Date: 1999-02-25 23:23:00 Subject: Hollows and rounds Darrell LaRue wrote: > > When I'm having trouble with a transition (from H to R) I > usually find that I'm leaving a 'track' (either a ridge or > a groove) and no matter how many times I go over it I keep > having the same problem. You used the word "tangental" and if that means complimentary arcs -- yeah, that's the deal. Tod Herrli's class on creating molding using H&Rs goes into great detail -- the trick is complimentary arcs and plowing (ploughing, Old Country subscribers) your tracks on center of the hollow or round you plan to cut. Going a step further. I got commerical version of some molding I wanted to cut with H&Rs, made cross sections to carry in the tools chest then 1) marked the centers so I could tranfers the measurement to raw stock quickly and 2) laid the H&Rs on the molding to get the correct arc for the cut then 3) marked the plane no. on the molding cross section. Now, whether I'm demonstratng or making molding for my use, I've got quick refernce guides and know exactly which planes to pull. There's a whole mathematical scheme for this, but I'm not much good at algebra.... Tim Rutherford Savannah, Georgia _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 58501 (thread 25403) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-02-26 07:38:00 Subject: Re: Hollows and rounds > > Going a step further. I got commerical version of some molding I > wanted to cut with H&Rs, made cross sections to carry in the tools > chest then 1) marked the centers so I could tranfers the measurement > to raw stock quickly and 2) laid the H&Rs on the molding to get the > correct arc for the cut then 3) marked the plane no. on the molding > cross section. Now, whether I'm demonstratng or making molding for my > use, I've got quick refernce guides and know exactly which planes to > pull. > > There's a whole mathematical scheme for this, but I'm not much good at > algebra.... > > Tim Rutherford > Savannah, Georgia And people complain the Norm makes it look easy, by not showing the setup procedures! That sounds like cheating to me... BugBear. ---- Start of Message 58502 (thread 25403) ---- From: "Scott E. Post" Date: 1999-02-26 10:50:00 Subject: Re: Hollows and rounds This subject is actually quite timely for me since I'm getting ready to buy my first set. I was gonna have Tom Witte bring me a set to the Indy auction but was told he's quite busy at these affairs so I'll drive up to his shop some weekend in March or April (any Chicago/MI/IN galoots want to meet there some Sat or Sun?). I'm also getting a couple side beads, a rabbet, moving fillester, plow....but I digress... First of all, is it worthwhile to get skewed H&R's? I wasn't even aware they were available until I saw a couple folks mention it. What's the advantage? Secondly, are H&R's offered in different pitches? I expect most of my moldings will be in hardwoods, some with less than cooperative grain. Should I be looking for a higher pitch? Thirdly, I noticed that H&R's typically have a bevel on the left side. What's the purpose in that? I'm left handed, so I'm curious if it has anything to do with the usage of the plane. ---- Start of Message 58509 (thread 25403) ---- From: Darrell LaRue Date: 1999-02-26 14:00:00 Subject: Re: Hollows and rounds Galoots, [snip - seems I've actually generated a bit of discussion about tools ;^)] Ken seems to agree that it's sometimes difficult > It seems to me that the only way that you can achieve the perfect > transition without additional help [snip] but my guess is that > it's a bit much to ask... Scrapers look like a good answer. Tim knows where I can get help in the depths of my insanity... > Tod Herrli's class on creating molding using H&Rs goes into great detail (I checked the EN site and there's a class schedule... Tempting!) Tim goes on to describe 'patterns' he makes for his mouldings. Hey! Now *that* is a good idea I just stole ;^) And Scott is teetering on the edge of another slope. Let's give him a gentle shove... > I'm getting ready to buy my first set > First of all, is it worthwhile to get skewed H&R's? Some of mine are, some aren't. Get the skewed ones if you can so cross-grain or highly figured work will be easier. The skewed ones I have are not at a very great angle - I didn't notice which of mine were skewed until I looked close at the wedge when I had it out. > Secondly, are H&R's offered in different pitches? I imagine so... but I haven't checked what pitch mine have, let alone which have leaning wedges [uh oh, not that again!]. Just like any other plane, a higher pitch would have been for harder/nastier wood. ---------- I guess my problem getting good transitions between hollow & round can be somewhat alleviated by paying closer attention to layout. Yes, more practice is definitely in order here. Darrell who scrounged a *free* jack plane the other day, heh heh. ---- Start of Message 58512 (thread 25403) ---- From: ralph.brendler@a... (Ralph Brendler) Date: 1999-02-26 14:25:00 Subject: Re: Hollows and rounds Scott Post asks: >First of all, is it worthwhile to get skewed H&R's? I wasn't even aware >they were available until I saw a couple folks mention it. What's the >advantage? Absolutely! The skewed H&Rs really help with figured wood moldings. Note that the skew in a skewed H&R is *not* like the skew in a skew rabbet, though! A rabbet plane is typically skewed around 20 degrees, while H&Rs are only skewed 3-5 degrees. >Secondly, are H&R's offered in different pitches? I expect most of my >moldings will be in hardwoods, some with less than cooperative grain. >Should I be looking for a higher pitch? Yep-- they are offered in all the common molding plane pitches, but the high pitch sets are tough to find. Pat Leach scrounged me up a middle pitch set years ago, and the only other I've seen was Mike Davies' sweet half-pitch set. Both of these sets were English (who were a bit more pitch-crazy than the Americans). If you work a lot of really crazy wood you might want to hold out for a higher pitch, but a common pitch should do just fine for 99% of stuff. >Thirdly, I noticed that H&R's typically have a bevel on the left side. >What's the purpose in that? I'm left handed, so I'm curious if it has >anything to do with the usage of the plane. It has nothing to do with use-- you should be fine using them backwards... ;-) ralph ++++ End of thread 25403 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25404 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58486 (thread 25404) ---- From: eugene@t... Date: 1999-02-25 19:59:00 Subject: Live oak woodies GG's: One suggestion I recieved from several Galoots about uses of my live oak pile was for plane bodies. (Not that I'm about to give up my 36" wide quartersawn table top dream...). So, does anyone actually own one? I mean can it really be done? This stuff is ...um...difficult to work with. Someone's beech plane body could be this stuff if you look only at the quarter sawn sides. The rays on sides could look very much the same and make a galoot think it's beech. But this would be noticably heavier. Anybody want to take a closer look at their massive accumulation of English planes? (export there for that use is one of the only uses I could find in my books) Gene ---- Start of Message 58497 (thread 25404) ---- From: "Rodney Myrvaagnes" Date: 1999-02-26 04:46:00 Subject: Re: Live oak woodies I have a lovely user-made (not by me) razee jointer of live-oak. It has a bronze striker inset, a round throat opening at the top, and rounded ends. The grain is perfectly vertical. Sapwood sole with the boundary about 3/4 inch up. The tote is store-bought beech. The iron is Moulson. The wedge is nicely made of the same live-oak. The sole is true. I would be proud of this plane if I had made it. On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:59:34, eugene@t... wrote: >GG's: > >One suggestion I recieved from several Galoots about uses of my live oak >pile was for plane bodies. (Not that I'm about to give up my 36" wide >quartersawn table top dream...). > >So, does anyone actually own one? I mean can it really be done? This >stuff is ...um...difficult to work with. Someone's beech plane body could >be this stuff if you look only at the quarter sawn sides. The rays on >sides could look very much the same and make a galoot think it's beech. But >this would be noticably heavier. > >Anybody want to take a closer look at their massive accumulation of English >planes? (export there for that use is one of the only uses I could find in >my books) > >Gene > > > > > >-- > > Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a 20+ years without a car, a TV, or a website ---- Start of Message 58500 (thread 25404) ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 1999-02-26 07:38:00 Subject: Re: Live oak woodies In a message dated 2/25/99 5:01:54 PM, eugene@t... writes: << I mean can it really be done? >> Yes. Definitely. "The American Woodworker" had one episode where a woodie was made from a single live oak block. The plane guy from Mystic Seaport Museum (Gardner) was interviewed, and then a trip to the shop was made. Unlike other examples of woodie construction I've seen and had described, there was no jointing of any component after ripping the bock. The block was laid-out, 3/8" was ripped from each side, the escapement was cut, and the block was glued back together. Period. Then the bottom was jointed until the mouth was about right. The material removed from the escapement was used to make the wedge. An old Stanley iron was used. The only tool used (other than layout tools) was a tailed bandsaw (from PBS's favorite equipment supplier). About as simple and as quick as woodie construction can get. ---- Start of Message 58542 (thread 25404) ---- From: eugene@t... Date: 1999-02-26 15:04:00 Subject: Re: Live oak woodies >>>I mean can it really be done? >>> Peter H said: >Yes. Definitely. >"The American Woodworker" had one episode where a woodie was made from a >single live oak block. Then Rodney M made me drool on my keyboard with: >I have a lovely user-made (not by me) razee jointer of >live-oak. It has a bronze striker inset, a round throat >opening at the top, and rounded ends. The grain is >perfectly vertical. Sapwood sole with the boundary about >3/4 inch up. The tote is store-bought beech. The iron is >Moulson. The wedge is nicely made of the same live-oak. The >sole is true. Makes me wonder if we are talking about the same species being called live oak. "The grain is perfectly vertical", sez he. There's no such thing possible in the pieces I have hacked off so far, sez I. That's the problem. I've compromised a lot already at finding a piece that could claim to be flat sawn on the entire sole. And if I cut a side to show off the best rays (just for looks), the opposite side will have none. AND, while I'm grumbling, the idea that the grain should slope down, front to back is another problem this tree didn't plan for except in 2" lengths. Peter again: >The block was laid-out, 3/8" was ripped from each side, the escapement was >cut, and the block was glued back together. Period. > I'm thinking about going that way, but I had hopes of doing a one piece body. Yeah, foolish, I know. At least the joint lines don't need to follow the grain to become invisible - the eye can't follow the grain anyway. Richard Wilson added: >As a recipient of a chunk of that same live oak I was amazed at the >denseness, and interlocking of it. "Interlocking". Good word. Intertwined. Hopelessly tangled. A nest of mating snakes, locked in an embrace matched only by power cords on a shop floor. Well, I don't care, this stuff will become a bloody plane, whether it cooperates or not. Gene (just having fun) ---- Start of Message 58544 (thread 25404) ---- From: Kenneth Stagg Date: 1999-02-26 20:24:00 Subject: Re: Live oak woodies eugene@t... wrote: > > Makes me wonder if we are talking about the same species being called live > oak. This brings up something I've been wondering about. In The Best of FWW: Wood, the chapter on Oak states that "Some live oaks are botanically related to the white oaks and some to the reds..." and then proceeds to lump them all under Quercus Virginiana. Did I miss something there? Maybe some of our wood mavens could help me out here. -Ken ---- Start of Message 58548 (thread 25404) ---- From: "John McCoy" Date: 1999-02-26 20:56:00 Subject: Re: Live oak woodies On Feb 26, 12:24pm, Kenneth Stagg wrote: > Subject: Re: Live oak woodies > eugene@t... wrote: > > > > Makes me wonder if we are talking about the same species being called live > > oak. > > This brings up something I've been wondering about. In The Best of FWW: Wood, > the chapter on Oak states that "Some live oaks are botanically related to the > white oaks and some to the reds..." and then proceeds to lump them all under > Quercus Virginiana. Did I miss something there? Maybe some of our wood mavens > could help me out here. I'm under the impression that any oak which does not shed it's leaves in the fall is called a "live oak". Q virginiana is the classic southern live oak, with impossibly huge branchs spreading horizontally from the trunk and spanish moss all over everything. This tree was beloved of Michael's shipwrights, as a source of huge curved timbers. It's renowned for being hard & dense (by oak standards). There's a mess of other oaks which look the same in lumber form tho. John (trying to think if there's any colors not found in the names of oaks - white, red, black, yellow, blue...) ---- Start of Message 58552 (thread 25404) ---- From: "Rodney Myrvaagnes" Date: 1999-02-26 21:35:00 Subject: Re: Live oak woodies There is also a desert live oak found in the Joshua Tree National Monument, in southern CA. It is a small shrub, and I doubt any planes have been made from its wood. On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:56:36 -0500, John McCoy wrote: >This tree was beloved of Michael's shipwrights, as a source >of huge curved timbers. It's renowned for being hard & dense >(by oak standards). > Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a Associate Editor Electronic Products 20+ years without a car, a TV, or a website ---- Start of Message 58560 (thread 25404) ---- From: eugene@t... Date: 1999-02-26 18:41:00 Subject: Re: Live oak woodies At 12:24 PM 2/26/99 -0800, Ken S wrote: >eugene@t... wrote: >> >> Makes me wonder if we are talking about the same species being called live >> oak. > >This brings up something I've been wondering about. In The Best of FWW: Wood, >the chapter on Oak states that "Some live oaks are botanically related to the >white oaks and some to the reds..." and then proceeds to lump them all under >Quercus Virginiana. Did I miss something there? Maybe some of our wood mavens >could help me out here. > Here is some help I got from OLDTOOLS Galoots when I first asked that question: (repeated without permission because it is in the archives) In <199706270143.VAA05725@n...>, on 06/26/97 at 09:43 PM, eugene@n... said: Well, this horse is nearly dead so a couple more kicks won't matter... >I have a vested interest in live oaks in the deep South, the ones that >are native from Texas to the Atlantic. They are not evergreens as in >conifers, but are never bare. They just renew leaves once a year. The correct term to apply to live oaks and their ilk is persistent, ie the leaves are persistent. Deciduous means not persistent. White Oaks vs Red Oaks It was posted earlier that the botanical name for red oak was Quercus rubra. Well, that is sorta true. Quercus rubra is *northern* red oak and it has numerous cousins that are also grouped as red oaks. The oaks are grouped into two main subgenera: Leucobalanus (white oak) and Erythrobalanus (red or black oak). There is a third but lets stick to the previous two. The shape of summerwood pores is now used to differentiate which species go into what group. The family "tree" looks like this: -Beech Family- -Oaks- -White oak group- -Red oak group- (several species) (sh*tload of species) -Chestnut oak group -Willow oak group- (several species) (several species including Live Oak) After reclassification, live oak is a red oak, as is Arizona white oak. When you go to a lumber yard you get either red or white not an individual species, although Q. alba makes up 80% of the lumber for the white group. In the past, folks have posted about splintery and non splintery experiences with red oak. This maybe be a species thing, but I'm really not sure. Probably more than anyone wanted to know about oaks. Also, I don't know anything about non-native (USA) trees. Jerry Next time: Sweetgum - bubblegum trees or urban legend? --------------------------------------------------------------------- And: In <199707020411.AAA02990@n...>, on 07/02/97 at 12:11 AM, eugene@n... said: >I'm finding, as I did with pine (thanks to Roger B.), that local common >names mean absolutely nothing. No wonder serious folks reverted to an >exact classification system, and did it in Latin code - so us commoners >wouldn't corrupt it. And since the classification system has been in place, folks have argued where to put stuff. >Jerry, your information directly contradicts some I got a month ago >about where "live oak" from the deep south of N Am belongs in the This isn't surprising; I have references that contradict one another and were written in about the same time period. Much like other things the correct answer depends on who you ask and whose information they trust. >Is this a _recent_ change in classification based on the >summerwood pore structure you mentioned? If so, does that have any >relationship to the wood's appropriate uses? No and no. Here are three characteristics used to classify the oaks: 1) Leaves: bristle tipped lobes. Red-yes, white-no. 2) Wood: summerwood pores angled. Red-no, white-yes. 3) Fruit: time to maturity. Red-2yr, white-1yr. As always, there are exceptions. A taxonomist (reference provided on request), decided that of these three, wood anatomy was the most trustworthy characteristic so he reclassified them based upon that. Now all the "live oaks" are in with the reds instead of being split between the two. >Like: "white oak is good >for xxx but red oak just won't do", in the texts written over the last >100 years? These statements are generalisations and should be used with caution. Q. alba (true white oak) is the king of the oaks and arguably N. America. It accounts for 75 to 80% of white oak lumber. The other members of the white oak group are basking in the press of Q. alba. I don't recall that chestnut or burr oak have tylosis or are resistant to rot. Similarly, some species in the red oak group may have good rot resistance but get a bad rep because of all the sorry ones. An old reference with tables of data like this is G. F. Ivey. _The Physical Properties of Lumber_. His data was gleaned from old Forest Products Lab reports and is pretty much public domain, I may type it up and post it somewhere. [Does Hoadley's book have these sort of data?] One reason you can't buy lumber from your favorite species is that they are so hard to differentiate. Treeowners, loggers etc probably recognize Q. alba because of its white flakey bark, therefore any oak without this type of bark is a red oak. Excepting live oak, since they are real distinctive. It's a work in progress! There are probably close to 300 oak species in N. America and they are evolving as we speak. I have one in my back yard I can't postively identify and in fact may be a cross between water and laurel oak. Jerry Seen any poison oak lately? PS. It don't exist. ------------------------------ So that's the word from a very helpful Galoot. Gene ---- Start of Message 58561 (thread 25404) ---- From: williams@i... (Larry Williams) Date: 1999-02-26 23:42:00 Subject: Re: Live oak woodies Eugene writes: > >I'm thinking about going that way, but I had hopes of doing a one piece body. >Yeah, foolish, I know. I'll bet you could do it. Might take a couple trys though. The inter- locking grain shouldn't be a problem. The worst are brittle woods. I've seen Bill make a number of planes from cocobolo and some had about the most tangled grain I've seen. He also made one from osage orange. The brittle coarse grain gave him some problems shaping the mouth. If you can chisel and float an escapement in that, you ought to be able to do any wood. Larry Williams http://www.planemaker.com don't think I'll use a sig file again after my loving daughter's slight modifications on my last few posts =8-0....she's still alive ---- Start of Message 58564 (thread 25404) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-02-27 00:20:00 Subject: Re: Live oak woodies On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:56:36 -0500 "John McCoy" writes: >I'm under the impression that any oak which does not shed it's >leaves in the fall is called a "live oak". Q virginiana is the >classic southern live oak, with impossibly huge branchs spreading >horizontally from the trunk and spanish moss all over everything. >This tree was beloved of Michael's shipwrights, as a source >of huge curved timbers. It's renowned for being hard & dense >(by oak standards). > My understanding is that there are two species or perhaps groups of closely related species of oak that have leaves that look rather like willow leaves only shorter, instead of the more familiar (to us raised up Nawth) lobed leaf. One of these that grows only in the Chesapeake Bay region and the Deep South is named appropriately enough, the willow oak, while the other is called live oak and is found throughout the Southeast and up the East coast to around SE Pennsylvania. I understand that various sources classify live oak as either red or white depending on which characteristics they think are more important. Or, in other words, the oaks themselves have pretty well ignored humanities efforts to bin them into two simple groups. Does anybody else recall the great black oak flamewar a year or so ago? We concluded by recognizing that different species can have the same common names in different regions. It turned out that three different species of oak, growing in three different regions, the NE, the SE and the West Coast, are commonly called black oak. At least one of these is a white oak and at least one of the other two a red oak. So don't think I'm saying you're wrong, just that I have a different way of confusing the issue than you do. ---- Start of Message 58568 (thread 25404) ---- From: John Hunt Date: 1999-02-27 02:26:00 Subject: Re: Live oak woodies On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 eugene@t... wrote: > That's the problem. I've compromised a lot already at finding a piece that > could claim to be flat sawn on the entire sole. And if I cut a side to > show off the best rays (just for looks), the opposite side will have none. > AND, while I'm grumbling, the idea that the grain should slope down, front > to back is another problem this tree didn't plan for except in 2" lengths. If'n you're going to split it in two, couldn't you do something tricky like cutting down the middle to show the rays, and then switch the position of the blocks so the rays are on the outside and who cares what's on the inside? Just a thought... ---- Start of Message 58576 (thread 25404) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-02-27 04:36:00 Subject: Re: Live oak woodies eugene@t... wrote: > That's the problem. I've compromised a lot already at finding a piece that > could claim to be flat sawn on the entire sole. And if I cut a side to > show off the best rays (just for looks), the opposite side will have none. > AND, while I'm grumbling, the idea that the grain should slope down, front > to back is another problem this tree didn't plan for except in 2" lengths. > Well, I know where there are a few large pieces that should have something decent. The city (Tallahassee) just cut down a live oak and chopped it into about 20 inch lengths. Unfortunately my GF and I can't pick up a 20 inch length of 42 inch diameter live oak, even though the this particular tree was dead and appears to be fairly well seasonned. It is still starting to check a bit though. We're going to try to roll at least one section into the back seat of the car tomorrow. There's more if anyone else wants some. Roger Books ---- Start of Message 58617 (thread 25404) ---- From: "Tim Swihart" Date: 1999-02-28 06:59:00 Subject: Re: Live oak woodies Roger Books wrote > Well, I know where there are a few large pieces that should have > something decent. The city (Tallahassee) just cut down a live > oak and chopped it into about 20 inch lengths. Unfortunately my > GF and I can't pick up a 20 inch length of 42 inch diameter live > oak, even though the this particular tree was dead and appears to > be fairly well seasonned. It is still starting to check a bit > though. > > We're going to try to roll at least one section into the back seat of > the > car tomorrow. There's more if anyone else wants some. Since you have to split it sooner or later, why not bring your splitting tools with you when you go to pick up that piece? Split it and the weight of each piece will be about half of what you're unable to lift now...you might even want to quarter it on the spot so that it's less likely to tear through your back seat as you slide it into place during loading. :-) Tim S. ++++ End of thread 25404 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25405 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58491 (thread 25405) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-26 01:58:00 Subject: Making the iron fit the woodie Just wanted to say thanks to those few of you who: 1. Read enough of my looooong post about old tool acquiring to answer my questions; and 2. Pointed out that the better way to make the iron fit in the coffin-bodied smoother was to take a bit of metal off the sides of the iron, rather than shaving the insides of the cheeks. (INSERT BIG STUPID, OPEN-MOUTHED, SLACK-JAWED DROOLING EXPRESSION HERE - DUH!). Now why the heck didn't that even occur to me?? Seriously - Thanks for preventing me from doing something REALLY stupid... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) Califon, NJ, USA wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ++++ End of thread 25405 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25406 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58494 (thread 25406) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-26 02:17:00 Subject: Ohio Tools metallurgy? Would anyone happen to know exactly what kind of metal an Ohio Tools #03 smoother would be made of? About 2 years ago, I picked one up at an anteek place for five whole dollars. I love the nice compact size, and the nice heavy tapered blade. When I took it home and started cleaning it up, I discovered a hairline crack on the left cheek, which goes all the way through the cheek. So I was afraid to try to use it, because it looks like if I put stress on it, the whole nose might snap off. Anyhow, I've now met a guy who seems to know everything there is to know about welding, and then some... (he teaches at the Somerset County vo-tech school). I gave it to him for him to weld it - he said that he can do it, and it would be better if he knew exactly what kind of metal it was, so he could make the weld match exactly. He asserted that it's not just plain cast iron - it's some sort of cast steel alloy, but he can't tell the exact composition. He's gonna do the file test and spark test, and may even have the guys at "the lab" test a tiny bit, but if anybody has any ideas, I'd like to hear `em... Thanks! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) Califon, NJ, USA wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ++++ End of thread 25406 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25407 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58503 (thread 25407) ---- From: "Scott E. Post" Date: 1999-02-26 11:07:00 Subject: Tight mouths don't help? I finally got to the Appendix of Whelan's _The_Wooden_Plane_ and was confused by a single sentence. Appendix 1 goes into the mechanics of what happens when a plane iron is cutting. This stuff has been covered in a lot of other books (for example, Lee's book on sharpening), but I figured I'd get Whelan's take on it. Most of it was identical to what we've all read elsewhere, except this from the paragraph on cutting endgrain: "If the cutting edge is not sharp, the fibers will be pushed forward before they yield. Separation from their neighbors will occur and small splits will appear perpendicular to the surface (or at an angle, in the case of miters). Small mouth openings and cap irons do not help in this case, but sharp edges, low pitch, and skew cutting do." I don't think he's trying to simply say that a tight mouth is no substitute for a sharp iron. After all, we know a cap iron isn't useful in endgrain work (no chip to break) and he seems to be lumping that together with a tight mouth. Is it really the case that a tight mouth doesn't matter in endgrain cutting? Seems contrary to all the advice I've ever read, but it makes sense when in a way. The sole in front of the mouth helps hold the wood down in front of the cut to keep a horizontal crack along the grain from propogating when planing along the grain (and thus, reducing tearout). In endgrain, since the grain runs perpendicular, a crack shouldn't propagate horizonally. So why does everyone (myself included) strive for a tight mouth on a shoulder plane? I suppose this calls for some experimentation with a Stanly #93 since the mouth is adjustable. ---- Start of Message 58505 (thread 25407) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-26 12:10:00 Subject: Re: Tight mouths don't help? -----Original Message----- From: Scott E. Post Date: Friday, 26 February 1999 19:31 Subject: Tight mouths don't help? > >So why does everyone (myself included) strive for a tight mouth on a >shoulder plane? I suppose this calls for some experimentation with a I suppose because a shoulder plane is used for a lot more than just end-grain? I use my Record 73 to clean up tenon cheeks, and there ain't no end-grain there. It's also good for long grain shaves on rabbets and such. It needs the tight mouth there. Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ---- Start of Message 58520 (thread 25407) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-02-26 17:25:00 Subject: Re: Tight mouths don't help? At 06:07 AM 2/26/99 -0500, Scott E. Post wrote: > >So why does everyone (myself included) strive for a tight mouth on a >shoulder plane? I suppose this calls for some experimentation with a >Stanly #93 since the mouth is adjustable. > I have never experienced any kind of tearout in endgrain planing and I never understood the point of a tight mouth for this kind of work. Of course there is always the problem of splitting at the ends but I don't think a tight mouth would solve this either. Adam ++++ End of thread 25407 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25408 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58506 (thread 25408) ---- From: "John L. Odom" Date: 1999-02-26 12:41:00 Subject: Nitric acid for wood darkening I was in correspondence with someone about the availabillity of nitric acid, but I deleted the folder. Please contact me off-list. John Odom ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ++++ End of thread 25408 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25409 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58511 (thread 25409) ---- From: "Lee, Jonathan" Date: 1999-02-26 14:12:00 Subject: Chemical Rust Removal I'm currently fixing up this Stanley #100 miter machine that I found in my root cellar the other day. All the parts are there except the rule and the saw. Thanks Stan for the info on your web site! There is a lot of rust on the tool that I'd like to get rid of. I've read about electrolysis but I don't feel like messing with that because: a) I don't have a battery charger b) the tool is recent and probaly not that valuable to collectors c) I'm currently hand planing about a zillion board feet of hard maple for a workbench and I am too lazy to care about preserving the patina (if there is any) on what will be a user tool. How do I remove rust chemically? I run a biology research lab so I have access to just about every noxious, acidic, and poisonous compound known to man. Thus, anything goes as long as I just have to dump the tool in and then rinse it off to remove rust. Thanks Jonathan Lee ---- Start of Message 58514 (thread 25409) ---- From: Richard Danzey Date: 1999-02-26 14:35:00 Subject: Re: Chemical Rust Removal I think a base would be a better bet than acid. Apparently, the right base attacks *only* the corrosion, not the parent metal. Sadly, I can't tell you a more specific substance. Best wishes... danz "Lee, Jonathan" wrote: > > I'm currently fixing up this Stanley #100 miter machine > that I found in my root cellar the other day. All the parts > are there except the rule and the saw. Thanks Stan for > the info on your web site! There is a lot of > rust on the tool that I'd like to get rid of. I've read > about electrolysis but I don't feel like messing with that > because: a) I don't have a battery charger b) the tool > is recent and probaly not that valuable to collectors > c) I'm currently hand planing about a zillion board feet of > hard maple for a workbench and I am too lazy to care > about preserving the patina (if there is any) on what will > be a user tool. > > How do I remove rust chemically? I run a biology > research lab so I have access to just about every noxious, > acidic, and poisonous compound known to man. Thus, > anything goes as long as I just have to dump the tool in > and then rinse it off to remove rust. > > Thanks > Jonathan Lee > > -- ---- Start of Message 58516 (thread 25409) ---- From: "Kelly Cox" Date: 1999-02-26 14:36:00 Subject: Re: Chemical Rust Removal -----Original Message----- From: Kelly Cox [mailto:cox@n...] Sent: Friday, February 26, 1999 8:36 AM To: Jonathan_Lee@h... Subject: RE: Chemical Rust Removal Jonathan; The standard de-rusting chemical is phosphoric acid (that is what is in Naval Jelly, and also in Coca-Cola, so I've been told). I wouldn't use lab-grade phosphoric acid (I DON'T want to start another thread on hazardous chemicals here!) just buy a tub of Naval Jelly and follow the instructions. For a user tool, it will be fine. Might leave a somewhat 'pickled' look to the surfaces. But keep an eye out at garage sales for a battery charger--the electrolysis process is just an amazingly effective de-rusting tool. Good luck! Kelly Cox Madison, WI > > How do I remove rust chemically? I run a biology > research lab so I have access to just about every noxious, > acidic, and poisonous compound known to man. Thus, > anything goes as long as I just have to dump the tool in > and then rinse it off to remove rust. > ---- Start of Message 58530 (thread 25409) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-02-26 17:51:00 Subject: Re: Chemical Rust Removal Jonathan Any 12 volt transformer that puts out over a couple of amps will work fine. In fact mine is a 24 volt 2 amp burglar alarm supply so not even the voltage counts for much. Just a few DC amps. Even if you don't much care about the current project, the next one along, you probably will. Might as well give in. Won't take you any more time. If you can't beat 'em, (and electrolysis can't be beat) ................................ yours Scott * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, 63742 Applegate Dr., Happy Camp, CA 96039 * scottg@s... PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/ ---- Start of Message 58540 (thread 25409) ---- From: Chris Dunn Date: 1999-02-26 19:44:00 Subject: Re: Chemical rust removal John L. Odom wrote: > I often use Coke ... > Check the parts every 6 hrs or so and stop when done. > Don't overdo it. There's nothing worse than a coked out tool. They start behaving like tailed apprentici ....... Chris - sorry, it's Friday ..... ---- Start of Message 58546 (thread 25409) ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1999-02-26 20:38:00 Subject: Re: Chemical rust removal On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, John L. Odom wrote: > Naval Jelly is a good product. I often use Coke or Dr. Pepper for small > parts, since I almost always have some around. Check the parts every 6 > hrs or so and stop when done. Don't overdo it. > > John Odom I thought naval Jelly had been decided to damage the metal enough that its use for woodworking tools wasn't recommended. There was a thread on rec.wwing a few years back on this. Am I msrecollecting? I also believe that the Navy has forbidden its use, for much the same reason. Please correct me if I'm not on target! Andrew Barss ---- Start of Message 58563 (thread 25409) ---- From: "John L. Odom" Date: 1999-02-26 23:42:00 Subject: Re: Chemical rust removal My statement was in the context of a person who wanted to remove rust with minimum work on a tool with no antique value. I wouldn't use it on a fine tool. John Odom >Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:38:29 -0700 (MST) >From: Andrew Barss >To: "John L. Odom" >cc: OLDTOOLS@l... >Subject: Re: Chemical rust removal > >On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, John L. Odom wrote: > >> Naval Jelly is a good product. I often use Coke or Dr. Pepper for small >> parts, since I almost always have some around. Check the parts every 6 >> hrs or so and stop when done. Don't overdo it. >> >> John Odom > > > I thought naval Jelly had been decided to damage the metal enough >that its use for woodworking tools wasn't recommended. There was a thread >on rec.wwing a few years back on this. Am I msrecollecting? > >I also believe that the Navy has forbidden its use, for much the same >reason. > > Please correct me if I'm not on target! > >Andrew Barss > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---- Start of Message 58573 (thread 25409) ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 1999-02-27 03:46:00 Subject: Re: Chemical rust removal Andrew wrote: > I thought naval Jelly had been decided to damage the metal enough >that its use for woodworking tools wasn't recommended. There was a thread >on rec.wwing a few years back on this. Am I msrecollecting? I use Naval Jelly on small pieces such as screws or small bits that aren't worth taking the time to zap. You have to check since the phosphoric acid will begin to eat the object after the rust is gone. I dilute the Naval Jelly with water 50:50 to slow the process down. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Will Work For Tools W.F.M. Goss On Bench Planes is featured at The Galoot's Progress: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ---- Start of Message 58579 (thread 25409) ---- From: "Lawrence H. Smith" Date: 1999-02-27 04:42:00 Subject: Re: Chemical Rust Removal I have used Naval Jelly - and the reason I'm such a fan of electrolysis is that (unlike NJ) it actually works to remove rust. Perhaps other people have different experiences, but I have (long before this list) had heavily rusted tools and NJ - ridiculously long applications of NJ happily removed any areas of slight rust that could be scotchbrited off in 5 seconds, and ignored vast areas of heavy rust. I doubt that "higher strength" would really help much. Electrolysis works, works on any level of rust, and won't cause harm if overdone (though George does want us to bake tooks afterwards to get the hydrogen out - since it also dries them, why ignore good advice twice useful?). My first, skeptics approach, tool electrolyzed was a pair of pliers I dug out of the ground, heavily rusted and immobile. They cleaned up fine; enough metal was lost as rust in the joint that they are somewhat loose, but they function and are rust-free. Naval Jelly wouldn't stand a chance on those, IMEE. So my advice is to drop a few bucks on a battery charger and some stainless steel scrap, toss the tool in a bucket and use the electro-chemical approach which actually works. It is not a hassle. -Lawrence H Smith, Librarian/Computarian for Buxton School and Woodworker -lsmith@s... Cats, Coffee, Chocolate... Vices to live by. ---- Start of Message 58629 (thread 25409) ---- From: "Thomas E. McCluskey" Date: 1999-02-28 15:02:00 Subject: Re: Chemical rust removal Besides, Naval Jelly is expensive compared to electrolysis if you are doing anything large or very rusty. A garage sale battery charger can be bought for about the same price as a pint of Naval Jelly or less. Tom McCluskey- Member in good standing of the Ancient and Honorable order of Bottomfeeders (AHOB). (By permission) Midland, TX >On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, John L. Odom wrote: > >> Naval Jelly is a good product. Don't overdo it. > I thought naval Jelly had been decided to damage the metal >enough >that its use for woodworking tools wasn't recommended. There was a >thread >on rec.wwing a few years back on this. >Andrew Barss > ---- Start of Message 58630 (thread 25409) ---- From: Bill Neely Date: 1999-02-28 07:38:00 Subject: Re: Chemical rust removal My 2 centavos on 'Naval Jelly': I spent 28 Years on active duty in the Coast Guard and the Navy. As far as I know there was never ANY kind of chemical rust remover, including NJ, on any of the 11 ships I served aboard going back to 1960. Hull and deck maintenance was done the old fashioned way: chipping hammers, paint scrapers and wirebrushes (and of course needle guns, jitterbugs, deck growlers, etc - tailed or hosed apprentices). I've only used NJ once, enough to convince me that it was a not too useful and really messy product. Bill Neely "Thomas E. McCluskey" wrote: > > Besides, Naval Jelly is expensive compared to electrolysis if you are > doing anything large or very rusty. A garage sale battery charger can be > bought for about the same price as a pint of Naval Jelly or less. > > Tom McCluskey- Member in good standing of the Ancient and Honorable order > of Bottomfeeders (AHOB). (By permission) Midland, TX > > >On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, John L. Odom wrote: > > > >> Naval Jelly is a good product. Don't overdo it. > > > I thought naval Jelly had been decided to damage the metal > >enough > >that its use for woodworking tools wasn't recommended. There was a > >thread > >on rec.wwing a few years back on this. > >Andrew Barss > > > > -- ++++ End of thread 25409 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25410 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58519 (thread 25410) ---- From: John Elliott Date: 1999-02-26 16:16:00 Subject: WTB Cooper's Tools Really looking to find a cooper's jointer, about 4 1/2 foot long would be great! Also interested in any cooper tools. Thanks John Elliott ++++ End of thread 25410 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25411 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58521 (thread 25411) ---- From: "Lee T. Smith" Date: 1999-02-26 16:36:00 Subject: Scrapers(newby question) Well, I guess its time I started exposing my ignorence for all and sundry. A few days ago someone mentioned in their post that they preferred the finish left by the plane over that left by the scraper. What am I missing here? I thought that the reason galloots used scrapers instead of sandpaper was that they acted like very tiny planes, taking very small, fine shavings, thereby leaving that nice open look to the wood. Also, although I have read in your posts that scrapers don't work well on most pine(and proven it empirically for myself) I don't understand *why* it is so. Can anyone enlighten me here? Lee Smith ---- Start of Message 58522 (thread 25411) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-02-26 17:06:00 Subject: Re: Scrapers(newby question) Lee Smith writes : >... >Also, although I have read in your posts that scrapers don't >work well on most pine(and proven it empirically for myself) I don't >understand *why* it is so. Can anyone enlighten me here? A scraper doesn't have most of the features that make a plane plane well : rigid iron, solid bed, a straight reasonably small mouth, a straight cutting edge and, for hand-held scrapers, a sole to keep everything nicely aligned. A scraper does have a nicely shaped chipbreaker set really close to the edge, which is why it performs with such little tearout (though it doesn't do that with any kind of accuracy). I also find it a lot easier to put a very keen edge on an iron than on a scraper. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 58525 (thread 25411) ---- From: Nik the Geek Date: 1999-02-26 17:16:00 Subject: re:Scrapers(newby question) Lee wrote: >Well, I guess its time I started exposing my ignorence for all and >sundry. A few days ago someone mentioned in their post that they >preferred the finish left by the plane over that left by the scraper. >What am I missing here? I thought that the reason galloots used >scrapers instead of sandpaper was that they acted like very tiny planes, >taking very small, fine shavings, thereby leaving that nice open look to >the wood. Also, although I have read in your posts that scrapers don't >work well on most pine(and proven it empirically for myself) I don't >understand *why* it is so. Can anyone enlighten me here? > >Lee Smith At last a question that I might be able to help with. (except for a combo of fuzzy memory and the flu). About a year ago I gave Hoadleys book "Understaning Wood" a fairly comprehensive going through and remember some of this. Nice read for someone with a scientific bent. Anyway, it has to do with the way planes and scrapers cut. (Assuming that Hoadley got the model right) Basically, And I am sure i will get smacked for saying this, a scraper cuts wood in much the same was as sandpaper. The effective cutting angle is quite large (something like 70-80 deg) and so can somewhat tear wood fibers. The cutting angle on your typical smoother is more like 45 deg. Because of how a scraper is used though, you do not get the tearout on squirelly grain like you could with a smoother. Why block planes suposedly deal with difficult grain well I do not understand as the only one I have is such a piece of crap that I never use it. Of course my efforts with a scraper are rather poor so I am not the best to tell you on scraper technique regards Nik Gregory reading/cambridge MA gregorynik@m... ---- Start of Message 58534 (thread 25411) ---- From: Carl W Muhlhausen Date: 1999-02-26 17:06:00 Subject: Re: Scrapers(newby question) "Lee T. Smith" wrote: > > Well, I guess its time I started exposing my ignorence for all and > sundry. A few days ago someone mentioned in their post that they > preferred the finish left by the plane over that left by the scraper. > What am I missing here? I thought that the reason galloots used > scrapers instead of sandpaper was that they acted like very tiny planes, > taking very small, fine shavings, thereby leaving that nice open look to > the wood. Also, although I have read in your posts that scrapers don't > work well on most pine(and proven it empirically for myself) I don't > understand *why* it is so. Can anyone enlighten me here? > > Lee Smith I don't know the technical reason for it, but a scraper generally leaves a duller finish than a plane. Perhaps it tears the fibers a bit before cutting them. But when a handplane just won't "cut" it, scraper is very handy. I've had certain woods, like flame birch, where my smoothers were taking nice shavings but leaving fuzzy patches behind. Scrapers or sandpaper can get you a smooth, but dull surface. This may be heresy, but I've found that the differences between a planed, scraped, or sanded surface are minimal or non existent once you put a top coat finish like shellac on it. Planes and scrapers when they work are just a whole lot more fun and often faster that running through the grits sanding. Carl ---- Start of Message 58547 (thread 25411) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-02-26 20:43:00 Subject: Re: Scrapers(newby question) Carl W Muhlhausen wrote: I don't know the technical reason for it, but a scraper generally leaves > a duller finish than a plane. Perhaps it tears the fibers a bit before > cutting them. I have seen the dull finish with a scraper. I have also seen an incredible high gloss raw wood finish with edges so sharp that the 90 degree edge can cut. Unfortunately, I do not have the faintest idea what causes the scraper to sometimes give the one and not the other . Regards, John Lederer Oregon, Wisconsin ---- Start of Message 58593 (thread 25411) ---- From: Ron Hock Date: 1999-02-27 17:53:00 Subject: Re: Scrapers(newby question) A scraper with a hook burnished onto the edge (the usual way one is used) is actually performing like a shearing blade (i.e.: plane or chisel) as the sharp edge of the hook attacks the wood fibers. It works better than planing on figured woods because the hook is a very short cutting edge and the rest of the blade acts like a very steep, severe chip breaker that does just that: breaks the "chip" into that lacy shaving that is the typical produce of scrapers. There are woods, however, that won't go along with this and continue to tear out even with the hooked scraper. By raising the angle of attack of the cutting edge (leaning the scraper forward)(like a steeper plane iron bed angle) we reduce the tendency for tear our but since we're no longer shearing the wood fibers, we lose the "shine" that we can get with lower angle instruments. The scraping angle can be raised all the way past 90 degrees (no hook at all) if the tear out demands but the force required to do the work increases also and the surface finish will be more matte. Yeung Chan made a couple of small scraper planes with negative rake (95 degrees) and no hook that worked beautifully on some impolite wood he was using but he had to sand the surface afterwards to achieve the requesite shine. Also, I believe L-N recommends no hook on their scraper plane (can anyone verify?). -- Professor R.J. Hock > I don't know the technical reason for it, but a scraper generally leaves a duller finish than a plane. Perhaps it tears the fibers a bit before cutting them.< ---- Start of Message 58623 (thread 25411) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-28 12:27:00 Subject: Re: Scrapers(newby question) -----Original Message----- From: Carl W Muhlhausen To: OLDTOOLS@l... Date: Saturday, 27 February 1999 02:31 Subject: Re: Scrapers(newby question) >I don't know the technical reason for it, but a scraper generally leaves >a duller finish than a plane. Perhaps it tears the fibers a bit before >cutting them. Hmmm, I've had this happen to me too. I've found that as the scraper dulls, the finish slightly improves, as the surface will tend to get "burnished" by the scraper. I suspect this has to do with the way the burr was rolled. If I don't use sufficient lubricant on the burnisher, then I tend to get this. I think a non-lubricated burnisher will cause tears or irregularities on the rolled edge that cause this dull finish. As it gets used, the irregularities disappear, hence the better result afte a few passes. >This may be heresy, but I've found that the differences between a >planed, scraped, or sanded surface are minimal or non existent once you >put a top coat finish like shellac on it. > I've found this too with some kinds of wood. But I've had a few surprises. Fo r example, Tassie Oak is a local hardwood that appears a boring uniform light yellow-brown when sanded. When scraped or planed, it shows heaps of very thin pink lines that give it a completely different appearance. These disappea r if any sanding is attempted, and they don't come back with the finish. I think it's this detail on some types of wood that has people so incensed about not using sandpaper. >Planes and scrapers when they work are just a whole lot more fun and >often faster that running through the grits sanding. Agreed 100%. ;-) Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ++++ End of thread 25411 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25412 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58523 (thread 25412) ---- From: "HALL, HAYWARD" Date: 1999-02-26 17:16:00 Subject: RE: big saw questions (build your own pit saw) It's funny how these topic come up right when I'm about to do it... All this lumber I'm splitting up will need to be sawed once I get it to my house. Some I will take to a mill, but I'd like to cut some myself (plus a friend), just to say I tried it (until I get my sash saw built :). I've been looking for a true pit saw for months to no avail. In the absence of a real one, I am thinking of picking up a long 1 man cc, forging a t-handle and refiling the teeth to rip. It may be a little shoreter than a true PS, but we're not doing an entire forest. Do you think it's that crucial to refile as a rip? Any alternative suggestions? The 2 man CC's seem to have too much curve, and the lance teeth normally encountered dont seem to lend themselves to a rip profile. As a side note, we plan on trestling up the logs, as shown in 'History of WW tools' (one end on a high, stationary object, and the other on a moveable brace). > -----Original Message----- > > >Rodney Myrvaagnes suggest in part, > > > >> The saw for cutting a log into planks is a 'pit > >>saw'. One man stands atop the log. He lifts and guides the > >>saw with a T handle. The other stands below, with a very > >>broad-brimmed hat, and provides the muscle on the down > >>stroke. The hat keeps the shower of sawdust out of his > >>face. > > > > > >Well, yes and partly [as opposed to yes and no] ;-). The pit man's main > >job was to "throw the saw up" rather than drag it down. At the end of > the > >stroke the pit man pulled back a little and heaved up on the lower end of > >the saw. This saved the drag of the backs of the teeth against the uncut > >end of the kerf, and possibly more importantly saved the back of the > Boss, > >the top sawyer. He did pull down a little, but the saw was usually kept > >well oiled and that with gravity helped the descent. Getting the saw > back > >to the top of the stroke was the hard part of the pit man's job. The top > >sawyer owned the saws and was responsible for their care and attention, > and > >for the straightness of the sawing. The guy in the pit worked hard and > >worked up a thirst. > > >I think the reason you see people ripping with cross cuts is simply that >the pit saws are hard to find. ---- Start of Message 58531 (thread 25412) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-02-26 18:01:00 Subject: Re: big saw questions (build your own pit saw) Hayward Just for messing around, why not get yourself a resaw blade for a big bandsaw (big hook teeth, maybe 4 per inch?) and make up a 2X4 frame saw out of it? The "really" old style pitsaw. Refiling a crosscut would be murder. Besides, I'd love to hear the tale. Oh, don't forget some wedges to hold the kerf open. yours Scott * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, 63742 Applegate Dr., Happy Camp, CA 96039 * scottg@s... PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/ ---- Start of Message 58677 (thread 25412) ---- From: Ian McKinley Date: 1999-02-28 22:18:00 Subject: RE: big saw questions (build your own pit saw) At 11:16 AM 2/26/99 -0600, you wrote: >It's funny how these topic come up right when I'm about to do it... > >All this lumber I'm splitting up will need to be sawed once I get it to my >house. Some I will take to a mill, but I'd like to cut some myself (plus a >friend), just to say I tried it (until I get my sash saw built :). I've >been looking for a true pit saw for months to no avail. Hi Hall I dug through my piles of old catalogs and came up with a couple of leads that might help. Frog Tool Co. in Chicago (1-800-648-1270 for orders or 1-312-648-1270), this is there 1993 catalog but I was told last year that they had never updated it. Just call them and see if it is still available and how much. They have about three pages of log and timber tools including a PIT SAW. Cat. # 838L9 $214.00. No idea if they still carry this but if not they may be able to put you in touch with the manufacture or distributor. You might also try Bailey's, they bill themselves as the world's largest mail order woodsman supplies company. They do not have a pit saw in there catalog but might know of some one still making them. (1-800-322-4539)for orders, Home office in Ca. (707-984-6133) http://www.bbaileys.com Ian ++++ End of thread 25412 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25413 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58524 (thread 25413) ---- From: Howard Slack Date: 1999-02-26 17:15:00 Subject: Re: Chemical Rust Removal - Coke? Kelly Cox wrote: > The standard de-rusting chemical is phosphoric acid (that is what > is in Naval Jelly, and also in Coca-Cola, so I've been told). So what about using Coke? Has anyone tried it on rust? (My apologies if this has already been answered somewhere in the past) ++++ End of thread 25413 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25414 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58529 (thread 25414) ---- From: "John L. Odom" Date: 1999-02-26 17:35:00 Subject: Chemical rust removal Naval Jelly is a good product. I often use Coke or Dr. Pepper for small parts, since I almost always have some around. Check the parts every 6 hrs or so and stop when done. Don't overdo it. John Odom ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ++++ End of thread 25414 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25415 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58535 (thread 25415) ---- From: Chris Dunn Date: 1999-02-26 18:07:00 Subject: Interesting saw - Disston #43 Hi guys & gals! There's a really neat saw that was just auctioned off on the eBay channel - a Disston #43. This a the saw with the built in level, plumb, square, ruler, scribe (missing), and it makes french fries. If you're interested in interesting saws, be sure to check out this beauty! Here's the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=68790039 The pictures are still up as of 10:00 am PST. If you miss them, I've saved them. Email me and I'll send you copies. By the way, it went for only $1102! Surprisingly, there was another one, in "fixer-upper" condition, earlier this week that went for $127.50 (cracked handle, missing scribe, one bubble gone, shortened 4"). Chris ---- Start of Message 58538 (thread 25415) ---- From: Wes Groot Date: 1999-02-26 20:28:00 Subject: Re: Interesting saw - Disston #43 Thanks Chris. Now I remember! I saw one of those at Gil's! (in Mi.) He was driving home from a regatta and stopped by a resale store... It was in the back under some "vintage ladies hats" marked "funny saw thingy" price: $17.50. He got it for $12.00 (told them that's all he had on him) And they threw in a set of "Stanley Everlast Chisel Thingys". Ain't that right Gil? Wes, going to go put on some camouflage now... Chris Dunn wrote: > > Hi guys & gals! > > There's a really neat saw that was just auctioned off on > the eBay channel - a Disston #43. This a the saw with the > built in level, plumb, square, ruler, scribe (missing), and > it makes french fries. If you're interested in interesting > saws, be sure to check out this beauty! > > Here's the link: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=68790039 > > The pictures are still up as of 10:00 am PST. If you miss them, > I've saved them. Email me and I'll send you copies. > > By the way, it went for only $1102! Surprisingly, there was > another one, in "fixer-upper" condition, earlier this week > that went for $127.50 (cracked handle, missing scribe, one > bubble gone, shortened 4"). > > Chris > > -- ++++ End of thread 25415 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25416 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58536 (thread 25416) ---- From: "DuPrie, James" Date: 1999-02-26 18:22:00 Subject: tusk tennon: round or square? So I'm getting ready to put the final touches (pre-finish anyway) on a cradle, and I've got a question. Should tusk tennons be round or square (the tusk that is). I think it would look better round, but I also don't want it to blow out.. I seem to recall a short discussion -someone thought that the corners of a square tusk would be more prone to crack development, but I don't recall seeing it ever get resolved.. any thoughts (or any one with better memory than me?) thanks -JD ++++ End of thread 25416 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25417 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58541 (thread 25417) ---- From: Jim Lunden Date: 1999-02-26 20:01:00 Subject: Old Wood Turning Tools GG's I am considering taking up wood turning primarily for the purpose of making legs and spindles for Windsor style chairs. All the wood turning books stress the benefits of High Speed Steel (HSS) tools over carbon steel tools. Some questions: 1) When were HSS tools introduced? 2) Are old turning tools made of HSS? 3) If not, are they still suitable for use? Obviously the old time galoots used them pretty successfully? 4) Are any makers particularly desirable for reliable user grade tools? Jim Lunden Avon, CT ---- Start of Message 58543 (thread 25417) ---- From: Ed_Balko@E... Date: 1999-02-26 20:25:00 Subject: Re: Old Wood Turning Tools Jim asked, ragarding carbon steel turning tools: 3) If not, are they still suitable for use? Obviously the old time galoots used them pretty successfully? 4) Are any makers particularly desirable for reliable user grade tools? New carbon steel turning tools are manufactured today, both in the US &UK, and readily available. Be careful not to burn the edges when you grind the tools See the turning tools at http://www.diefenbacher.com/, for example, which I understand are relabelled Buck chisels. Some of the lower priced mail order houses carry British carbon steel chisels usually Sorby. Read the fine print carefully. the metal composition is usually stated clearly. If the price is attractive and the tools isn't explicitly listed as HSS, its very probably carbon steel. Ed Balko Middletown, NJ ---- Start of Message 58545 (thread 25417) ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1999-02-26 20:24:00 Subject: Re: Old Wood Turning Tools On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Jim Lunden wrote: > All the wood turning books stress the benefits of High Speed Steel (HSS) > tools over carbon steel tools. > > 2) Are old turning tools made of HSS? Nope, carbon steel. > > 3) If not, are they still suitable for use? Obviously the old time galoots > used them pretty successfully? > Nah, send them to me, and I'll use them for other purposes! Seriously... HSS holds up much better under high heat conditions, as occurs in (a) grinding and (b) high-speed turning (like a bowl, for example). Almost all turners use their tools right off the grinder -- that's the main (and often, only) sharpening tool. The heat resistance of HSS makes them much less easily damaged during grinding. I think, although I'm not sure, that HSS also holds its edge longer. However ... carbon-steel holds a better edge. Further, I find it easier to turn a sharp burr on a carbon steel scraper than a HSS one. I like the carbon tools I have, though most of my turning tools are HSS, and they're great (I recommend the Artisan line from Craft Supplies USA for a decent deal). -- Andrew Barss ---- Start of Message 58601 (thread 25417) ---- From: Phil and Debbie Koontz Date: 1999-02-27 15:26:00 Subject: Re: Old Wood Turning Tools Hi Jim-- I have to start by admitting that I have never used HSS turning tools. My lathe is treadle powered, and I find that it doesn't have enough stamina to get my tools very hot . My distinct impression about the rationale for HSS is that it mainly applies to the sharpening process. You can heat high speed steel to about 1300 degrees F (glowing red) before it starts to lose its hardness, as opposed to about 400 degrees or so with carbon steel. The sharpening protocol for HSS is therefore to just slap it on the high speed grinder until it looks right. If it turns colors, no prob. To avoid damage to carbon steel, on the other hand, it should not show any colors due to heating. The familiar blue oxide color that we all know from power grinders in the bad ol' days is a bad sign. However, heat damage to a carbon steel tool is almost always very localized along the thin edge, so it can be corrected by (careful) regrinding. As a matter of fact, I have been using some of my bench chisels and gouges pretty successfully as turning tools. I find that the mortise chisels are a lot less subject to chipping than (thin, delicate) paring chisels (well, duh!); but the gouges don't seem to have any problems. I would encourage you to try a few carbon steel tools before you plunge into the dark side. I am told that HSS won't take or hold a fine edge due to it's larger grain structure. Also, and by the way, I find that my scary sharpened tools hold an edge surprisingly well. When I think of how much cutting and abrasion there is in an hour of turning; it must equal months or years of normal bench work. Amazing. One way to tell HSS tools by appearance is that they don't forge the stuff. It has to be milled from bar stock. So if you see something that obviously is machined instead of formed, figure that it's HSS. Phil Koontz Who can't think of a decent tag line today. ---- Start of Message 58607 (thread 25417) ---- From: jim wallbridge Date: 1999-02-28 00:58:00 Subject: Re: Old Wood Turning Tools Phil Koontz said " You can heat high speed steel to about 1300 degrees F (glowing red) before it starts to lose its hardness, as opposed to about 400 degrees or so with carbon steel." The temperature for HSS tools will depend on grade but for the most likely alloys you begin to loose hardness starting at somewhere between 1100 and 1200 F. For carbon steels 400 F is safe but in most cases for turning tools 500 F is safe as they are tempered to a lower hardness than other chisels and planes. Even if you get some bluing I would try the turning chisel, before grinding of the damaged volume, because a few seconds at 600 F has a similar effect to 20 minutes plus at say 500 F that the manufacture used ---- Start of Message 58694 (thread 25417) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-03-01 08:26:00 Subject: Re: Old Wood Turning Tools > > Hi Jim-- > > I have to start by admitting that I have never used HSS turning tools. > My lathe is treadle powered, and I find that it doesn't have enough > stamina to get my tools very hot . > > My distinct impression about the rationale for HSS is that it mainly > applies to the sharpening process. I think there's a wonderful chicken-egg thing here, applying to sharpening and use. Since HSS doesn't mind getting hot, you can let them get blunt, and thus generate heat, without ill effects (apart from poor quality work, that is!) Also, if your technique is less than perfect, and you let the bevel of the tool rub, heat generation is...spectacular, on a power lathe. HSS is UTTERLY irrelevant to the pole-lathe boys, since green wood is soft (and moist). Carbon steel lathe work is different in nature, emphasising technique and sharp edges. You may well want to scary-sharp your carbon tools, since a fine edge lasts longer (one of those paradox things). BugBear. ---- Start of Message 58730 (thread 25417) ---- From: "Brent D. Beach" Date: 1999-03-01 18:11:00 Subject: Re: Old Wood Turning Tools On Sat, 27 Feb, Phil and Debbie Koontz wrote: >Also, and by the way, I find that my scary sharpened tools >hold an edge surprisingly well. When I think of how much >cutting and abrasion there is in an hour of turning; it must >equal months or years of normal bench work. Amazing. There is some experimental support for this observation. From a post to the rec.crafts.woodturning >I saw some fascinating work by Robby Farrance, a turner who >teaches at Yandles in Somerset (UK). He looked at the edge of >ground tools under a microscope (and had the photos), and you >could see the burr. When the tool was turned on a high speed >grinder it was basically a line of very hard debris made from >a mixture of superheated steel and stone, and remarkably >uneven. For a gouge it prevented clean cutting. The usual >arguement is that any burr is removed within seconds of using >against the wood yet we rely on the burr on a scraper. > >What he found is that the burr is very hard to remove using >any form of honing stone, and is very rough leading to a >poorer finish. > >He did tests on the time before a tool was blunt from grinding >and found that tools when ground on water cooled wheels stayed >sharp around three times as long. > >He assessed sharpness after grinding on each type and found >that the sharpness immediately after grinding was higher on >the water cooled, but the sharpness of the high speed gound >tools increased almost to the level of water cooled ground >tools, after some use before falling again. As stated >previously the sharpness fell approximately three times faster. > >He did his tests on a tormek and a typical far eastern high >speed grinder with a friable white wheel. Another contributer to r.c.w, who sells the Tormek system, was going to summarize the Farrance report, but I never saw it. SS(TM), because it operates at much lower temperatures and uses finer grits (for the most part), would not produce this molten mass and should get the same durable edge that the tormek system gets. Brent Brent Beach, Victoria, BC, CA ++++ End of thread 25417 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25418 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58549 (thread 25418) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-02-26 21:09:00 Subject: Brace ID Question A while back, I picked up an old brace. It has been sitting around my shop but because I did not have any bits to use with it, it has just hung on my wall. Well, I recently picked up a nice set of bit and of course I had to take the brace down to give them a try. Now, I have suddenly become very interested in finding out about my brace. The brace is of a split-frame chuck construction with a thumbscrew to tighten and loosen the bit. The head and handle are both wood - appears to perhaps be cocobolo - very dark in color - but at the same time it is difficult to tell. The handle has two pewter rings. As far as marks go, one side of the frame is stamped: JOHN S. FRAY & CO. Or at least that is what I make of it. The RAY & CO. part is very clear with the first half of the stamp only being able to clearly read the bottom half of the lettering. On the opposite side of the frame from the first stamp is another mark, again difficult to read. It appears to have actually been two stamps, place side by side with the first one (on the left) only being able to read about half of the first line and barely being able to make out the bottom line. Here is what I get: BRID.......... U.S.A To the right of the above stamp is: No 112 The sweep of the brace is 12" The brace looks identical to the #112 Spofford Brace listed on pg. 126 of Walter's book on Stanley Tools. My brace is not, however, in any place that I can find marked Stanley. Anybody have any idea of the maker of this brace? It matched the description of the Stanley one to the T but is not marked as such. Were these braces made by a different company and marked Stanley or did Stanley make them and sell them to hardware dealers unmarked? Any info appreciated. Also, any idea on value. Thanks in advance, Keith Rucker Tifton, GA ---- Start of Message 58572 (thread 25418) ---- From: Lodley@a... Date: 1999-02-27 03:08:00 Subject: Re: Brace ID Question In a message dated 99-02-26 16:10:27 EST, ksrucker@s... writes: << The brace looks identical to the #112 Spofford Brace listed on pg. 126 of Walter's book on Stanley Tools. My brace is not, however, in any place that I can find marked Stanley. >> Definitely a basic question, but everyone has to start somewhere. Stanley had no brace production (aside from a short-lived early patent at the very beginning), until acquisition of the John Fray works of Bridgeport, Conn. This was a major player, and had the Spofford in its lineup, with other important patents. Hence, Stanley offered most of the same models and added some as they went along. In fact, much of the early production under Stanley ownership remained at Bridgeport. At some point some tools appeared, like the Spofford with both Fray and Stanley stampings. The pewter rings almost always indicate Fray heritage, even on certain models continued by Stanley. I recently had a Stanley corner brace with one grip with pewter, and the other the more common type without the rings. The actual acquisition was I think about 1909, but it was some years later that all brace production went to New Britain. Lloyd Henley ---- Start of Message 58575 (thread 25418) ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 1999-02-27 03:46:00 Subject: Re: Brace ID Question Keith wrote: >The brace looks identical to the #112 Spofford Brace listed on pg. 126 of >Walter's book on Stanley Tools. My brace is not, however, in any place that >I can find marked Stanley. > >Anybody have any idea of the maker of this brace? It matched the >description of the Stanley one to the T but is not marked as such. Were >these braces made by a different company and marked Stanley or did Stanley >make them and sell them to hardware dealers unmarked? The J.S. Fray Company made high quality braces and was bought out by Stanley in 1909. Fray continued to make braces for Stanley in Bridgeport until 1924 at which time manufacturing was moved to New Britain. The Spofford chuck braces, such as you have, were offered for some time after the acquisition. Page 82 of Walter's guide has more detail on Stanley's assimilation of several brace manufacturers. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Will Work For Tools Survival Tips For Beginner Galoots are at The Galoot's Progress: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ++++ End of thread 25418 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25419 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58550 (thread 25419) ---- From: Chris Winter Date: 1999-02-26 21:05:00 Subject: re: Record 043 Richard Wilson writes: "The record 43 - it's just the grooviest (a pun, Paddy) tool in the workshop." I have one and like it as well. Richard mentions some tips and things to look out for in a prior posts such as bent arms. missing stop etc. I would like to add that that I have one that is a bit damaged. The problem is a narrow skate- there is very little bearing surface under the cutter support so take a look at this. If you buy one, I would advise using a light cut. It's so narrow and the fact that you shouldn't need too deep of a cut for light work shouldn't pose much of a problem to take a few extra swipes with a light cut. Mine doesn't get used often at all, but for the right work it's a nice plane to use. Chris Winter ++++ End of thread 25419 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25420 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58553 (thread 25420) ---- From: "Phil Bassett" Date: 1999-02-26 21:43:00 Subject: Skew rabbet woodie question - basics (sorry) Hi guys, all the recent discussion on H&R's and skew blade woodies finally got to me so I bought an Auburn Tool Co. inch 1/4 skew rabbet plane with a side nicker at a local antique store today. It is stamped No.181 on the rear end.My first woodie. Since you all got me on this new part of the slope perhaps someone can answer some quick primer questions for me. 1. The side nicker on this plane lines up with the side of the body of the plane - should I also align the plane iron with the nicker or should the iron peek out of each side of the plane body since it is wide enough to?Presumably if the blade peeks out on each side then I should correspondingly shim the nicker out to align properly with the edge of the iron.If I have to shim the nicker iron how should I do it? 2.Should I coat the body with linseed oil or ??????oil before using it to protect it from drying out and cracking?Should I just wax the sole or coat this with oil too? 3.Which is a good woodie primer book - Dunbar's restoration book maybe??? At the same store there was also a Norris rabbet plane - just to show total woodie ignorance - I thought Norris only made infill planes.It didn't have a side nicker so I bought the Auburn as I want to see what one of these can do across the grain with a skew blade. Sorry for the basic questions (I'll pay more attention to the woodie threads in future) but if you want to blame anybody then blame Larry Williams or Kenneth Stagg as prime motivators for this purchase. Thanks for any advice, Phil Bassett. Phil Bassett, Gainesville,sunny Florida. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ++++ End of thread 25420 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25421 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58556 (thread 25421) ---- From: Jim Thoreson Date: 1999-02-26 21:57:00 Subject: Sargent planes vs. Stanley Bailey GG's, I'm not that knowledgeable on the history of Sargent planes, but I was wondering something which I know some of you out there will be able to answer for me. Is the Sargent VBM series of planes (in cast iron) comparable in features to the Stanley Bailey, or is there a different series that I don't know about? I haven't been able to locate any additional information other than what I can find in the local library, which isn't much. TIA Jim Thoreson {in snowey N. Mich. 8~0 } j_thor@e... PS. I don't want to start a war over Stanley/Sargent, I was just curious...... ---- Start of Message 58569 (thread 25421) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-02-27 02:46:00 Subject: Re: Sargent planes vs. Stanley Bailey At 4:57 PM -0500 2/26/99, Jim Thoreson wrote: >Is the Sargent VBM series of planes (in cast iron) >comparable in features to the Stanley Bailey Better. Dincha read the label? They're the Very Best Made. Seriously, if not very helpfully, the few VBMs I've seen look like they could perform like the Satanley line, but I don't have one for a head to head test, and would also be interested if anyone out there has actually used these planes, as opposed to merely accumulated for display and low end financial speculation. Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 58598 (thread 25421) ---- From: Charles Nunemaker Date: 1999-02-27 20:39:00 Subject: Re: Sargent planes vs. Stanley Bailey Tom Wrote... > >would also be interested if anyone out there has actually >used these planes, as opposed to merely accumulated for display and low end >financial speculation. Why yes, I have a very nice #408 Sargent (Stanley #3). Very similar to Stanley. Casting is a little bit heavier on the #408. Sharpened and tuned up, I think they are equal. My only quibble is that Sargents use mahogany totes and knobs and all though fine I like the rosewood better. Charlie Nunemaker ++++ End of thread 25421 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25422 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58557 (thread 25422) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-02-26 22:23:00 Subject: A Teachers' Tool?? Galoots, I'm going to "break" the rules here regarding eBay posts because someti mes the seller takes the pictures down immediately after the close of the item. Anyway, you have GOT to look at this item. < http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=69039357 > For the younger Galoots who have only used computers, pencils are a graphite based manual mechanism for recording thoughts. The device pictured sharpens the recording capability. Karl ---- Start of Message 58565 (thread 25422) ---- From: "Rodney Myrvaagnes" Date: 1999-02-27 02:01:00 Subject: Re: A Teachers' Tool?? I am glad you posted that. I have seen a Cesar Chelor crown plane sell for less than the (not accepted) high bid on the pencil sharpener. I interrupted my wife's harpsichord playing to get her to come and look at it. She was also flabbergasted. On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:23:15 -0500, Karl W. Sanger wrote: >Galoots, > I'm going to "break" the rules here regarding eBay posts because someti mes >the seller takes the pictures down immediately after the close of the item. > Anyway, you have GOT to look at this item. > > < http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=69039357 > > > For the younger Galoots who have only used computers, pencils are a >graphite based manual mechanism for recording thoughts. The device >pictured sharpens the recording capability. > > Karl > > >-- > > Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a 20+ years without a car, a TV, or a website ---- Start of Message 58567 (thread 25422) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-27 02:21:00 Subject: Re: A Teachers' Tool?? >I am glad you posted that. >> >> < http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=69039357 > Here's the beautiful part about this wonderful design.....as you crank it, you can decorate your whole desk with flying bit of graphite and wood shavings. Clever, AND functional. Can't believe some silly cheapsjkate stopped at UNDER $10,000.00 .... a real missed opportunity. I would have bought it for sure, but my wife would have fought me for it, and since they didn't have two................. Tom ++++ End of thread 25422 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25423 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58558 (thread 25423) ---- From: Roeder/Kraft Date: 1999-02-26 23:14:00 Subject: Low quality molding planes In his book on American Wooden planes, Pollak makes the following observation under the entry for A. Howland & Co., one of the New York makers who used prison labor: "...the hardware trade did not consider prison work quality equal to that on the outside..." You can see why when you look at the placement of the boxing strip on the first and third jpegs at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=70681229 Interesting too, is that the statement is a paraphrase of one made by the Howland Company itself. Nothing like living down to the low expectations set for you... Randy Roeder Repaint houses, not old tools. ---- Start of Message 58559 (thread 25423) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-02-26 23:22:00 Subject: Re: Low quality molding planes Randy Roeder writes : >You can see why when you look at the placement of the boxing strip on >the first and third jpegs at:... Hey, I have a couple just like this. I've always thought it was due to the sole being reworked by some klutz. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ++++ End of thread 25423 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25424 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58566 (thread 25424) ---- From: "Adajian" Date: 1999-02-27 02:15:00 Subject: Stanley 45 screwdriver G.G's The other day, I picked up a box of stuff at the local flea market. Down in the bottom of the box was a small screwdriver, that sorta looked like the one that Bob Kaune has for sale on his website that would go to an earlier 45. I was wondering, was this screwdriver marked in any way? Anyone have one so I can have another comparison photo, and maybe a few OA dimensions? Muchas Gracias! Gary A., in the Wilds of the N.W. hills of CT. ---- Start of Message 58585 (thread 25424) ---- From: Tony Blanks Date: 1999-02-27 08:13:00 Subject: Re: Stanley 45 screwdriver Cary asked, >G.G's > The other day, I picked up a box of stuff at the local flea market. Down >in the bottom of the box was a small screwdriver, that sorta looked like >the one that Bob Kaune has for sale on his website that would go to an >earlier 45. I was wondering, was this screwdriver marked in any way? Anyone >have one so I can have another comparison photo, and maybe a few OA >dimensions? Hi Gary, I have a 45 which was my grandfather's, and there is a screwdriver with it in the box. Whether or not its original I can't say, and my Grandfather isn't around to ask, so you will have to decide for yourself. A simple description is that it is a small wooden handled screwdriver, flats both sides of the handle, with a dome shaped brass ferrule and a flat steel blade. Both the handle and the blade are "waisted". There is no name or mark of any sort anywhere on it. The handle could be beech but there is no beech fleck. There are no oak rays for that matter, and the general colour is light tan. Really helpful eh? Ok, the long version with dimensions, starting from the top is: Length o'all 4 5/8" wood to top of collar 3 3/4" exposed blade, measured form top of slot in collar, 1 9/16" Handle max dia, 1" Flats on handle 1"long x 13'36 w Thickness through flats eleven /16, ie this probably came from a 3/4" board Handle tapers to a waist, dia 1/2", swells to 5/8" then a straight taper to the ferule 5/16'' dia. the ferrule is 5/16" dia x 3/8" deep (long?) Blade is steel, max width at top of ferrule slots, 5/16" with a straight taper to a 1/4" tip. A shallow arc has been ground out of each edge of the blade to form a waist, 1/4" wide. An Aus 5 cent coin fits perfectly in these arcsso they have to be part of a 3/4" circle. The lower end of the arcs are 3/4" from the tip. The blade is a hair under 1/16" thick. So, there you go, enough info to build yourself a replica if these dimensions don't match what you have. But then, as I said, this may not be an original either ;-( Happy measuring, Tony B Hobart, Tasmania Still seeking dowelling auger bits ++++ End of thread 25424 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25425 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58571 (thread 25425) ---- From: FrankSronce Date: 1999-02-27 02:55:00 Subject: Questions for Yankee Lovers Galoots, I picked up a Yankee eggbeater at the Canton flea market yesterday, and I have a couple of questions - not being too familiar with Yankees. (My grandpa wouldn't even let me say the word when I was young.) :-) This one is about 11 inches long with a red handle and red knob on the crank. It is marked Yankee No. 1530A and North Brothers Mfg, so I guess it was made before Stanley bought North Bros. It has a nice nickle- plated cylinder between the drive gears with adjustments for 1) plain, 2) L hand ratchet, 3) R hand ratchet, 4) R hand double, and 5) Lock. ("R hand double" seems to indicate double speed, so I guess it has some kind of extra internal gearing that is not obvious.) Questions: Is it a gloat at $10? Are there lots of these out there? (If so, I haven't noticed them before.) Approximately when were these made? I thought there was a Yankee page out there somewhere in Galoot land, but if so, I can't find it. If someone knows of one, please drop me the URL. The only problem I found with the drill was that it was a little to big to fit in the bottom drawer of the old Gerstner 241 machinist's tool chest I picked up at the same time. (I would like to call that a gloat, but the box needs a lot of work.) Frank (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ---- Start of Message 58589 (thread 25425) ---- From: "George Langford, Sc.D." Date: 1999-02-27 13:42:00 Subject: Re: Questions for Yankee Lovers Hi Frank and drillie twisty Galoots, Frank foolishly wonders whether he can gloat: > I picked up a Yankee eggbeater at the Canton flea market yesterday, > ... marked Yankee No. 1530A and North Brothers Mfg, so I guess > it was made before Stanley bought North Bros. Actually, the opposite. No A's in the early model numbers. > It has a nice nickle-plated cylinder between the drive gears with > adjustments for 1) plain, 2) L hand ratchet, 3) R hand ratchet, > 4) R hand double, and 5) Lock. OK so far. > ("R hand double" seems to indicate double speed, so I guess it has > some kind of extra internal gearing that is not obvious.) Sort of. North Bro's made use of the second pinion by arranging a double ratchet mechanism. "R hand double" means that both ratchets are active. No matter which way you turn the crank, the chuck turns so that a right hand bit continues to cut. "Lock" sets the ratchets both in their opposite directions, so no matter which way you (attempt) to turn the crank, the spindle won't turn. Especially unhandy if this happens when the little cylinder is turned so that the ratchet control is on the side facing the frame. Don't let that happen, for example, by bumping the drill endwise. > Is it a gloat at $10? Yup. > Are there lots of these out there? Some; they appear now and again on eBay & even at the flea mkts in PA. > Approximately when were these made? > (Is there) a Yankee page out there somewhere in Galoot land (?) I'd be interested in the answers to those two questions myself. > The only problem I found with the drill was that it was a little > to(o) big to fit in the bottom drawer of the old Gerstner 241 > machinist's tool chest I picked up at the same time. Easy fix: Just drill holes in the bottom of the drawer and in your benchtop; hee, hee. > (I would like to call that a gloat, but the box needs a lot of work.) You mean, you got the drill stuck inside the drawer ? The drill's a nice catch, though. Oil it and enjoy the feel of the ratchet mechanism at work. Millers Falls' much larger equivalent No.97/87 drills have a setting called "onwards" which is more poetic. Best regards, George Langford, getting set to continue making the six inch diameter bull gear for his son's 10-inch Atlas lathe on his own Atlas milling machine. To those who don't know, the Atlas MM has only six inches max. between spindle and table top. Howdy he doodat ? That's the OT ? amenex@e... ---- Start of Message 58600 (thread 25425) ---- From: "Jerry Serviss" Date: 1999-02-27 21:10:00 Subject: Re: Questions for Yankee Lovers On 26 Feb 99, , FrankSronce wrote: > Galoots, > > I picked up a Yankee eggbeater at the Canton flea market yesterday, and I > have a couple of questions - not being too familiar with Yankees. (My > grandpa wouldn't even let me say the word when I was young.) :-) > > Questions: Is it a gloat at $10? Are there lots of these out there? (If > so, I haven't noticed them before.) Approximately when were these made? > First things first, a 1530 is the best eggbeater drill that you could own, bar none, IMHO. At $10 you got a good deal. A gloat, is in the mind of the beholder. As for when it was manufactured, well all I can tell you is that Stanley bought out the North Bros in 1946. Since its an A model, I estimate it to be post 1930 or so. ++++ End of thread 25425 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25426 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58574 (thread 25426) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-02-27 03:52:00 Subject: FW: Live oak - Botanical Info. (Was: Live Oak Woodies) And about the taxonomy of the Live Oak.... I just went and pulled down a great plant reference off my library shelf - "Manual of the Vascular Flora of the Carolinas" by Radford, Ahles, and Bell. Wonderful reading - when I can't fall asleep at night, this one will always do the trick. This was the "Bible" in one of the Botany course I took in college - Plant Taxonomy. I think I had to learn the scientific name of every plant that grew in Athens GA and when we got through there, we headed to the North Georgia Mountains. Well, I digress. Looked up Live Oak (Quercus virginiana, Miller). For those who like this kind of boring reading, here is what it says: "Q. Virginiana Miller, Live O. Generally a medium size tree, with wide spreading branched (a tree only 15 m high may have a limb spread of over 40 m), occasionally only a shrub. Bark of trunk dark brown, slightly ridged to flaky. Leaves coriaceous, evergreen except in severe winters, oblong to elliptic to obviate, mostly 4-6 cm long, 1-6 cm wide, generally not toothed nor lobed, but sometimes with a few sharp-pointed teeth near apex, usually revolute, glabrous above, pubescent to glabrate beneath; petioles usually less than 3 mm long. Acorns borne singly or in clusters of 2-5, dark brown above, yellowish below, oblong, ca. 2 cm long; cup turbinate, covering 1/3-1/2 of acorn; peduncle pubescent, 1-13 cm long. April; Sept.-Nov. Sandy woods; outer cp of N.C., cp of S.C. [Va., Ga., Fla., Ala., Miss.] Includes Q. geminata Small-S and Q. virginiana var. maritima (Chapman) Sargent - F. Hybridizes with Q. lyrata and Q. Stellata. Acorn sweet, cotyledons frequently fused; epicotyl forms a small tuber after germination." So, if that doesn't answer all of your questions, I don't know what will. As far of is it a Red oak or a White oak, botanically speaking it is really not neither but probably comes closer to a White Oak due to its leaf characteristics (smooth rounded lobes on leaves as opposed to sharp lobes on a Red Oak). From a lumber mans standpoint, I really do not know. There are actually a couple of sub-species but I seriously doubt there is enough differences to classify them as sometimes being a red oak and sometimes a white. Perhaps the reason that FWW says that some are related to Red and some to White is due to the hybridization with Q. Stellata (Post Oak) which I would call a White Oak and Q. lyrata (Overcup Oak) which I would call a Red Oak. By the way, all Oak trees (Quercus spp.) are in the Fagaceae botanical family - the same family that Beech and Chestnut fall under. We have a bunch of these trees growing down here in South Georgia. Some are huge! They do not grow very tall nor do they have a long straight trunk like most other oaks. In fact, you would probably have better luck getting a long board out on the limbs than the trunk. Legend has it that the reason there are so many huge specimens of this tree is that back in the colonial days, the Queens Navy actually went all over the South East to mark certain trees as the Queens to use in ship construction. Seems that I remember reading somewhere that they would use the lumber in the construction of the keels of the ships. If anyone was caught cutting down one of the Queens trees, it would not turn out to be a very good day. Hope this helps, Keith Rucker Tifton, GA -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Stagg [mailto:kstagg@e...] Sent: Friday, February 26, 1999 3:24 PM To: Oldtools Subject: Re: Live oak woodies eugene@t... wrote: > > Makes me wonder if we are talking about the same species being called live > oak. This brings up something I've been wondering about. In The Best of FWW: Wood, the chapter on Oak states that "Some live oaks are botanically related to the white oaks and some to the reds..." and then proceeds to lump them all under Quercus Virginiana. Did I miss something there? Maybe some of our wood mavens could help me out here. -Ken ++++ End of thread 25426 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25427 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58577 (thread 25427) ---- From: David Tardiff Date: 1999-02-27 04:37:00 Subject: WTB: End cutting nippers, or nail pullers I've got an old child's desk that's had finish nails driven into most of the frame's M&T joints, and I want to remove them so I can fix the (still) wobbly joints properly....to do that, I've been looking (for quite a while) for a pair of end-cutting nippers....the ones I want are configured like pliers, but only meet at the very tip, so a nail with any protrusion can be grasped, and then rocked against the curved jaw ends, and removed. The ideal pair should have single bevels on the ends, not doubled like a typical pair of diagonal cutters - a bevel on the outside requires more nail visible to grasp. Any kind galoot have any of these laying around, surplus? Stop me before I try driving the nails through the other side of the joint.... Dave Tardiff, in Massachusetts. ++++ End of thread 25427 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25428 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58578 (thread 25428) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-02-27 04:53:00 Subject: Saw sharpenning... Oh wise and infinately knowledgable Galoots (or those that happen to have an opinion anyway). I'm working on converting my 13tpi rip profile backsaw (a #4 disston) into a 13tpi crosscut so I can use it as a carcass saw, but I have ended up with one important question, What angle should I file the teeth at? Mr. Lee says use around 20 degrees for a general purpose cut, would this be a good angle for a carcass saw or should I go further? Also, I think most of the books I can find that talk about sharpenning grossly undervalue a good saw vise. I have no idea how you would lower the file by the proper amount without having a tilting saw vise. TIA Roger Books ++++ End of thread 25428 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25429 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58580 (thread 25429) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-02-27 05:00:00 Subject: seasonning wood GG's, I have been thinking about attempting to make a go board, and just realized I have no idea how to season a chunk of wood that big. For an example check out: http://www.samarkand.net/cgi-bin/Web_store/Html/Images/KAY1F.jpg This is one solid chunk of wood, would you leave it as a tree and saw out what you need afterwards? The top of the table is end-grain, maybe you cut it to shape and then pour a pot of wax on it. In either case I would expect to wait a few years for it to finish drying. Any suggested woods? I was looking at my molding planes and thinking hmmmm, beach? I wonder if I could obtain a chunk of wood that big. Maybe this big chunk of Live Oak I am going to try to get tomorrow, if I can figure out how to season it. Roger Books ---- Start of Message 58581 (thread 25429) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-02-27 05:09:00 Subject: Re: seasonning wood Roger Books wrote: > > GG's, > > I have been thinking about attempting to make a go board, and > just realized I have no idea how to season a chunk of wood that > big. For an example check out: > > http://www.samarkand.net/cgi-bin/Web_store/Html/Images/KAY1F.jpg > > This is one solid chunk of wood, would you leave it as a tree > and saw out what you need afterwards? The top of the table is > end-grain, maybe you cut it to shape and then pour a pot of wax > on it. The top is obviously _not_ endgrain, sometimes I have to fall back on a claim of temporary idiocy. Roger Books SWMBO would probably argue with the temporary part. ++++ End of thread 25429 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25430 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58582 (thread 25430) ---- From: "Chuck Zitur" Date: 1999-02-27 05:58:00 Subject: scratch stock Hi All I was at an antique show earlier this evening and picked up something that I have not seen before (not that I have ever seen even 1/10th of the old tools out there) It is a #61 marking gauge that had been modified to hold a 1 3/4" by 3" piece of saw blade(?) with 3 different bead patterns, The stock is turned in the widened gauge post slit to expose the proper configuration. I scanned the scratch stock although the outline is about 50% bigger than the actual piece. the gif should be at http://www.mcn.net/~anchor/sctchstk.gif Nothing earth shaking but just something different. Chuck Zitur Billings, MT ++++ End of thread 25430 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25431 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58586 (thread 25431) ---- From: Sutton Date: 1999-02-27 12:48:00 Subject: Re: End cutting nippers, or nail pullers David- I bought a cheap pair of end cutting nippers that had a double bevel and just put the face against my grinder until it was a single bevel, slightly convex, and they work great for pulling out nails that don't show much. Just an idea. David >the curved jaw ends, and removed. The ideal pair >should have single bevels on the ends, not doubled >like a typical pair of diagonal cutters - a bevel >on the outside requires more nail visible to grasp. *********** David Sutton Sutton Studios 1532 Crain St. Evanston, IL 60202 suttons@e... http://www.suttonstudios.com >I've got an old child's desk that's had finish >nails driven into most of the frame's M&T joints, >and I want to remove them so I can fix the (still) >wobbly joints properly....to do that, I've been >looking (for quite a while) for a pair of end-cutting >nippers....the ones I want are configured like pliers, >but only meet at the very tip, so a nail with any >protrusion can be grasped, and then rocked against > >Any kind galoot have any of these laying around, >surplus? > >Stop me before I try driving the nails through the >other side of the joint.... > >Dave Tardiff, in Massachusetts. > >-- >+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ =+=+=+=+=+=+=+ OLDTOOLS@l... listserv@l... >Archive: http://mailmunch.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/archives/ OLDTOOLS >+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ =+=+=+=+=+=+=+ > > ---- Start of Message 58689 (thread 25431) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-03-01 07:06:00 Subject: RE: End cutting nippers, or nail pullers ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Sutton ~ Sent: Saturday, February 27, 1999 12:49 PM ~ To: davidwtardiff@e...; Oldtools List ~ Subject: Re: End cutting nippers, or nail pullers ~ I bought a cheap pair of end cutting nippers that ~ had a double bevel and just put the face against ~ my grinder until it was a single bevel, slightly ~ convex, and they work great for pulling out nails ~ that don't show much. Isn't the grinding of nail pullers (pincers in English) a fine art? Too sharp an edge and the pressure on the handles (any correct name known in Gallootshire?) when levering will tend to make you unintentionally cut through fine nails, yet if too blunt they skid. Jeff ++++ End of thread 25431 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25432 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58588 (thread 25432) ---- From: STJones911@a... Date: 1999-02-27 13:56:00 Subject: Kevin Brennan's URL Working through 200 emails; somebody may have already posted: http://www.kcwtw.com/number5beader.html Steve Jones Kokomo IN Seeking Stanley #64 screwdrivers and Buck Bros. mortise chisels ++++ End of thread 25432 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25433 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58590 (thread 25433) ---- From: STJones911@a... Date: 1999-02-27 14:14:00 Subject: Re: Live oak woodies & Re: infill questions GGs; I have a chunk of live oak (maybe 6/4 X 24 X 8) with the wildest grain I've ever seen. All six faces are different. It's been sitting around the shop for close to two years and I don't think it's moved much. Would this be suitable for a 1" infill shoulder plane (Hoosier Tools kit)? I would still like to use ebony but the live oak is paid for. ;^) Or maybe Scott Post will give me the leftover Cocobolo from his HT infill. Come to think of it, I have a piece of osage orange too. Would that be suitable? TIA for your wise counsel. Steve Jones Kokomo IN Seeking Stanley #64 screwdrivers and Buck Bros. mortise chisels ---- Start of Message 58706 (thread 25433) ---- From: "Bruce Kantelis" Date: 1999-03-01 15:01:00 Subject: Re: Live oak woodies & Re: infill questions Both live oak and osage are very tough and stable, either would work out just fine. Be sure you have real live oak and not water oak or other similar. Live oak has very rough and deep bark. Regards, Bruce Kantelis -----Original Message----- From: STJones911@a... To: OLDTOOLS@l... Date: Saturday, February 27, 1999 9:23 AM Subject: Re: Live oak woodies & Re: infill questions >GGs; > >I have a chunk of live oak (maybe 6/4 X 24 X 8) with the wildest >grain I've ever seen. All six faces are different. It's been sitting around >the shop for close to two years and I don't think it's moved much. >Would this be suitable for a 1" infill shoulder plane (Hoosier Tools kit)? >I would still like to use ebony but the live oak is paid for. ;^) Or maybe >Scott Post will give me the leftover Cocobolo from his HT infill. > >Come to think of it, I have a piece of osage orange too. Would that be >suitable? TIA for your wise counsel. > >Steve Jones >Kokomo IN >Seeking Stanley #64 screwdrivers and Buck Bros. mortise chisels > >-- > ++++ End of thread 25433 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25434 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58591 (thread 25434) ---- From: estuary@w... (Larry Holland) Date: 1999-02-27 15:52:00 Subject: Spoon bits Well, that's what I originally thought they were. Phil Koontz suggested shell bits, and a check with one of St. Roy's books confirms it. The archives didn't help much, but I may have been a little impatient. There are 3...each by different makers. 1/4" ... W. Brown & Sons...overall length 11-1/2" 1/8"... O. Flather & Son.....overall length 11-1/2" 3/8"...W.H.R.(maybe P) & Co....preceded by a circled sorta bat-wing logo overall length 7-3/4" Also picked up a tapered reamer. Notched tang... 11/16" maximum diameter and tapers down to a point. Neat looking tool, 9-1/4" overall length. Markings are: D. Weather & Sons Cast Steel Much obliged for any info Larry....ready for Spring in SW Washington State - Larry Holland estuary@w... ---- Start of Message 58610 (thread 25434) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1999-02-28 01:31:00 Subject: Re: Spoon bits Larry Holland asked about: >shell bits Quick check of Ken Roberts' _Some 19th Century English Woodworking Tools_ suggests: >1/4" ... W. Brown & Sons...overall length 11-1/2" Possibly Henry Brown & Sons listed as a Sheffield brace and bit manufacturers, -1852-1900- ? >1/8"... O. Flather & Son.....overall length 11-1/2" Possibly D. Flather & Sons, also listed as a Sheffield brace and bit manufacturers, -1856-1900- ? > >3/8"...W.H.R.(maybe P) & Co....preceded by a circled sorta bat-wing logo > overall length 7-3/4" I find no near matches in the Sheffield or Birmingham brace and bit manufacturer lists. I did, however, check Roberts' lists of edge tool and joiners' tool manufacturers for Sheffield and found the firm Wilson, Hawksworth, Ellison & Co. in business at various locations from about -1856-1879-. The listing also indicates they manufactured saws, but nothing about braces, so this should be viewed with extreme caution. Sorry, struck out on the D. Weather & Sons mark. Also, note the 1900 dates above merely indicates that Roberts' research ended at 1900. Not that the firms necessarily ceased operations at that date. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 58633 (thread 25434) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1999-02-28 17:25:00 Subject: Re: Spoon bits Previously, regarding a shell bit Larry Holland had inquired about: >>3/8"...W.H.R.(maybe P) & Co....preceded by a circled sorta bat-wing logo >> overall length 7-3/4" > >I find no near matches in the Sheffield or Birmingham brace and bit >manufacturer lists. > >I did, however, check Roberts' lists of edge tool and joiners' tool >manufacturers for Sheffield and found the firm Wilson, Hawksworth, Ellison >& Co. in business at various locations from about -1856-1879-. The >listing also indicates they manufactured saws, but nothing about braces, >so this should be viewed with extreme caution. Follow-up. I had put forth the possibility of Wilson Hawksworth, Ellison & Co. with great trepidation. However, decided to follow this up and found an 1879 advertisment for the firm reproduced by Ken Roberts in his _Some 19th Century English Woodworking Tools_. One of the trademarks listed is a heart-shaped padlock which, if not entirely clear on the bit, *might* look very much like Larry's "circled sorta bat-wing logo." ?? I'd be curious to know if Larry could take another look at this logo to see if any more determination could be made. The trademark also shows a keyhole on the body of the padlock. This might help us establish that the firm did manufacture and/or sell** boring tools along with their other known activities. ** Part of the text in the ad includes: "Files, Saws, Edge Tools, Hammers and Engineers' Tools; AND GENERAL MERCHANTS." So, it's possible another firm manufactured bits for W.H.E.& Co., for resale through their agents. (N. American agents in Boston, Montreal, New York, and Philadelphia.) Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 58654 (thread 25434) ---- From: estuary@w... (Larry Holland) Date: 1999-02-28 23:08:00 Subject: Re: Spoon bits Don McConnell kindly pursues the shell bit identification >I had put forth the possibility of Wilson Hawksworth, Ellison & Co. with >great trepidation. However, decided to follow this up and found an 1879 >advertisment for the firm reproduced by Ken Roberts in his _Some 19th >Century English Woodworking Tools_. > >One of the trademarks listed is a heart-shaped padlock which, if not >entirely clear on the bit, *might* look very much like Larry's "circled >sorta bat-wing logo." ?? > >I'd be curious to know if Larry could take another look at this logo to see >if any more determination could be made. The trademark also shows a keyhole >on the body of the padlock. This might help us establish that the firm did >manufacture and/or sell** boring tools along with their other known >activities. Thanks Don, for the additional legwork. The bit, upon gentle cleaning...is definately W.H.E.&Co. The logo, however...remains largely the same. If you can picture a headless bat with wings spread, imbossed within a circle...that'd be it. Quite an attractive logo...kinda feel bad that it's not the padlock. Larry.....who oughta be glad that it's only rained once this year, in SW Washington State. - Larry Holland estuary@w... ++++ End of thread 25434 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25435 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58592 (thread 25435) ---- From: "Scott E. Post" Date: 1999-02-27 16:52:00 Subject: Databases revisited A week or so there was a thread on databases for cataloging one's tools. I didn't pay much attention at the time, but yesterday my company gave me a laptop which, amongst other things, has MS Access. I tried my hand at creating a tool database (mostly to keep track for insurance purposes), but it's been many eons since my college database class. Does anyone have an Access database they'd be willing to give me as a starting point? It can include fields for P*w*r tools also, since I'll need to include those for insurance. ++++ End of thread 25435 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25436 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58594 (thread 25436) ---- From: lgs15716@c... Date: 1999-02-27 18:08:00 Subject: Old tools availability in Denver Co? GG's, I am considering moving to Evergreen, Colorado (which is about 30 south-west of downtown Denver). What is the availabilty of old tools like in this area? Is it an old tool wasteland? This would be compared to York County Pennsylvania, which does have its fair share of old tools! Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Lou ---- Start of Message 58595 (thread 25436) ---- From: Stu Ritter Date: 1999-02-27 18:44:00 Subject: Re: Old tools availability in Denver Co? At 01:08 PM 2/27/99 -0500, you wrote: >GG's, >I am considering moving to Evergreen, Colorado (which is about 30 >south-west of downtown Denver). What is the availabilty of old tools like >in this area? Is it an old tool wasteland? This would be compared to York >County Pennsylvania, which does have its fair share of old tools! Any >information would be greatly appreciated. >Thanks >Lou To which I say welcome. I live in Denver and there are a few other GG's in the area. There are some decent pickings, but, well, you'll have to make up your own mind..Give a call when you get out here.. Stu 303-698-2431 8-4, M-Th say hello to the list, Stu... Hello again list.. ---- Start of Message 58615 (thread 25436) ---- From: D & B Brown Date: 1999-02-28 05:02:00 Subject: Re: Old tools availability in Denver Co? At 11:44 AM 2/27/99 -0700, Stu Ritter wrote: >say hello to the list, Stu... Hello again list.. Hi back at you & it's good to see you posting again. David Brown ---- Start of Message 58675 (thread 25436) ---- From: Richard Garlick Date: 1999-03-01 03:56:00 Subject: Re: Old tools availability in Denver Co? Well Lou, I already live in Evergreen and there is an ordinance here about one galoot per population center. I suppose I could fit you in but you would have to join the Rocky Mountain Tool Collectors and make semi-annual trips back to Pennsylvania to bring tools back, naturally giving me first rights of refusal before any of the other old tool scavengers around here see them. Let me know if you decide to make the move. Rick ---- Start of Message 58714 (thread 25436) ---- From: "Pierre F. Fogal" Date: 1999-03-01 16:36:00 Subject: Re: Old tools availability in Denver Co? Well, there are oldtools out here, but there is also this little known regulation about tithing every second tool to galoots already living in Denver ;-). So, you're going to be busy ... In all honesty though, you can find a few, but not usually at bottom feeder price. I'd say that about 25% of my ... ahem ... er, ah, collection (that is to say a like grouping of things as opposed to a like grouping of things of value) have been acquired locally. The rest come from the usual suspects. Let us know if you're in the area, especially since Ritter has crawled back in! ;-) Best, Pierre ---- Start of Message 58725 (thread 25436) ---- From: Stu Ritter Date: 1999-03-01 18:48:00 Subject: Re: Old tools availability in Denver Co? >Let us know if you're in the area, especially since Ritter has crawled >back in! ;-) > >Best, >Pierre Fogal Crawled the man said..Why, hrumphhh! Like any self-respecting, knuckle dragging galoot, I come back only on the rear pair..I use the front pair to turn the switches on all my dark side equipment.. Stu Ritter ---- Start of Message 58777 (thread 25436) ---- From: georgew@m... Date: 1999-03-02 00:00:00 Subject: Re: Old tools availability in Denver Co? Lou We have the same ordinance in the Four Corners (Southwest Colorado . ;-) No tools out here. No sir! That's my story and I'm sticking to it. (Shush, That's not really a Bedrock 605C type 6b for $5. No! Your seeing things! Altitude does that to you) RMTC is a great group if you are Front Range or Albuquerque Recommend you give them a try. Also a great bunch of Galoots over Denver way (right Pierre?). If you venture to the Four Corners, give me a holler. George Well Lou, I already live in Evergreen and there is an ordinance here about one galoot per population center. I suppose I could fit you in but you would have to join the Rocky Mountain Tool Collectors and make semi-annual trips back to Pennsylvania to bring tools back, naturally giving me first rights of refusal before any of the other old tool scavengers around here see them. Let me know if you decide to make the move. Rick ++++ End of thread 25436 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25437 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58596 (thread 25437) ---- From: "Michael" Date: 1999-02-27 20:01:00 Subject: What do you expect..., using Austrian Oak. I quote..., 'The press spoke dramatically of the car's "tremendous pace", but speed appears to have been only partly to blame for the accident. The principal cause seems to have been over-enthusiastic braking on the bend, causing the spindly wooden wheels to collapse; the spokes were apparently made of Austrian Oak, which the coroner condemned as "very rotten and bad".' Todays motoring section of the Saturday Daily Telegraph recalls the first fatal car crash on English roads 100 years ago on Saturday 25th February 1899, part of which I quoted above. One of the passengers to survive said that 'he felt "rather alarmed" at the speed of the car as it sped down the hill, which he estimated at "quite twenty miles an hour".' One wonders why, with all the English Oak available, and being used daily by Wheelwrights throughout the country why they had to buy in supplies of Austrian Oak ?. If you refer back to Henry Ford and his Model T, I think you will find that he also used wooden spoked wheels, built by American Whelwrights, for it was the transitional stage of transport from the Buggy, road waggon, cabriolet and other vehicles which were fitted with hickory spokes, {I am quoting from my reprint copy of the Sears, Roebuck catalogue of 1902}, to early motorised transport. It only goes to prove once again that one should always use the materials one is familiar with, oak here in England, and hickory in The States. Mike. ++++ End of thread 25437 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25438 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58597 (thread 25438) ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Date: 1999-02-27 20:14:00 Subject: Chattanooga Galoots? I'm going to be in Chattanooga, TN tommorrow, and for four days after (leaving Thursday)... Any Galoots in that area wanna git together? If not, any good tool/junque haunts I should know about? (Reply off-list) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) Califon, NJ, USA wkt@i... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ++++ End of thread 25438 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25439 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58602 (thread 25439) ---- From: "William H. Fissell" Date: 1999-02-27 20:17:00 Subject: 113 disassembly Hi, bought a beater #113 at a garage sale. Much rust Any tips on disassembly? ie how much disassembly is possible? desireable? My main goal is rust control. thanks in advance. Bill ---- Start of Message 58655 (thread 25439) ---- From: Mark van Roojen Date: 1999-02-28 23:38:00 Subject: Re: 113 disassembly I disassembled one long ago and quite a bit is possible, but they are also rather fragile and can freeze up. Often the arms crack around the square end of the rod that they pivot on. I know you can bpush the pins out of the hinges and articulation points on the adjuster with a punch and that the sole slides sideways on the dovetail. The frog comes off, though getting to the screw at the right angle can be difficult. As I recall, one can also remove the arms from the square ends of the rods that run through the body to the gears that keep the two ends coordinated. As I recall (and my memory is vague) you have to file the edges of the qsquare ends where it has been peened to that they will fit back through the holes in the arms. Maybe you don't need to do that, but I think one does. Use lots of penetrating oil as you work at it. If this was more recent I could be of more help. Mark At 08:17 PM 2/27/99 +0000, William H. Fissell wrote: >Hi, > >bought a beater #113 at a garage sale. > >Much rust > >Any tips on disassembly? ie how much disassembly is possible? >desireable? My main goal is rust control. > >thanks in advance. > >Bill > >-- >Archive: http://mailmunch .law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/archives/OLDTOOLS > Mark van Roojen P.O. Box 83836 Department of Philosophy Lincoln, NE 68501-3836 University of Nebraska (402) 438-3724 (h) 1010 Oldfather Hall (402) 472-2428 (w) Lincoln, NE 68588-0321 (402) 472-0626 (fax) (msv@u...) ++++ End of thread 25439 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25440 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58605 (thread 25440) ---- From: FrankSronce Date: 1999-02-27 22:55:00 Subject: Gerstner Advice (was Questions for Yankee Lovers) Thanks to Jerry and all the others who answered my questions regarding the Yankee eggbeater (both on and off-line). Even to Scott Grandstaff who wanted to trade the information for the Gerstner I mentioned picking up the same day I got the drill - which brings me to the question at hand. The Gerstner 241 (number on the back of the drawers - in pencil) needs major surgery. The plywood back had gotten wet at some point and delaminated - also may have had bugs eating on it at some time. This model is one of those which was originally covered by black fabric of some type. The fabric was mostly gone when I got it, and I removed the rest today. I bought it initially thinking that only the drawers would be salvageable. But when I took the remains of the back off and got a good look at the case itself, I found that the chest framework is very solid (no regluing needed) and all the hardware still works fine. The drawers (except for having dirty felt) look brand new. So it all looks pretty much salvageable if I don't mess up too bad. Replacing the back will be simple, but I am not sure how to go about refinishing the outside. The wood is solid (probably poplar) but doesn't look like it would lend itself to staining. I'm assuming that recovering it with fabric would be a bear of a job, but is an option. The other option is to spray paint it (probably black vice bright red, embarrassed pink or armadillo gray). Advice needed: If I decide to try recovering with fabric, what kind of fabric and glue should I use? Any suggestions on how to do it, problems to look out for, etc? Anyone out there done this? Since I can't even wrap a birthday present without making a mess of it, I am leaning toward the idea of spray painting. But this is probably the only Gerstner I will ever own, so that seems almost sacrilegious. Any ideas? Frank (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) Jerry Serviss wrote in regard to my questions re the Yankee: > > First things first, a 1530 is the best eggbeater drill that you could > own, bar none, IMHO. > > At $10 you got a good deal. A gloat, is in the mind of the beholder. > > As for when it was manufactured, well all I can tell you is that > Stanley bought out the North Bros in 1946. Since its an A model, I > estimate it to be post 1930 or so. > > -- > Jerry Serviss > Always buying unique Yankee Tools ++++ End of thread 25440 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25441 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58606 (thread 25441) ---- From: "John O'Connor" Date: 1999-02-27 23:27:00 Subject: Oldtool experience in Sacramento and Phoenix Hello Galoots, Along the same lines as Lou's post, I was hoping I could get some input (off line) about the Old Tools scenes of Phoenix AZ, and Sacramento CA. I was scanning EN and noticed the PAST web page, and the existence of an tool group in Phoenix (but not web page). I may have to make a choice between the two cities in the next 2 weeks or so and would much appreciate any input about the merits of each area's old tool related potential. John O'Connor Rounding the turn on the homestrech of his educational career. ++++ End of thread 25441 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25442 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58608 (thread 25442) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-02-28 01:08:00 Subject: Found NOS plane parts This morning the sun was shining bright and the temperature was above freezing, so nice that I couldn't resist the call of the flea markets. I had a hunch the nice weather would bring out more vendors than usual for a winter weekend, and it did, though not that many. I came across the most interesting little cardboard box, full of plane parts. I don't believe I've ever seen a new part for an old plane before. Unfortunately the vintage of the parts was newer than I'd have preferred, looks to have been around the maroon era of Stanley judging from the three or four block plane lever caps that were present (why would you want to stock lever caps ?). It was really pretty neat. Pick up a plastic envelope, look inside, find three iron/capiron screws. Look in another one, find two or three depth adjustment studs. In another were some front knob studs. Bunch of knobs floating around also. If the vintage had been earlier I would have gone for the whole box, but I finally settled on three front knobs (rosewood, but the ugly shape of the later Made in Can planes), an :aluminum: tote marked Stanley and Made in USA, a brass depth adjustment knob (big size), a chromed front knob for a blockplane, a blue fence for a 78 with a slotted screw instead of a thumbscrew, and a hotdog side handle for a breast drill (which I've needed for a drill I bought several years ago). All for 10$. Other than that, I found a tiny oilcan for a buck, and a skew carving chisel for a couple more. Spring is almost in the air. ++++ End of thread 25442 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25443 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58609 (thread 25443) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-28 01:19:00 Subject: 16 oz = 1_pint_ A while ago I posted a question about some shellac that did not completely dissolve. Today I figured it out. 16 fluid Ounces does NOT equall 1/4 of a gallon but is rather 1/8! So where I thought I was making a 3 Lb Cut I was in fact, trying to make a 6 Lb cut. The embarrasing part was when I realized my mistake... It was at the apothecary, ordering a Gallon... The lady says well they are only availibel in 16oz bottles so you'd need 8. I said "No, just 4 I only want _one_ gallon". She of course countered that "16 oz was a pint and there are 8 pints in a gallon". I felt _real_ stupid, I'll tell you that. In my defence, I can plead that while I was in grade school, we were tought the Metric System. Anybody remeber that silly little system of weights and measures that was all the rage in the US back in the 70's ?-) Can anybody tell me: How many grams of shellac flake to a Liter to get a 3 Lb Cut? ---- Start of Message 58611 (thread 25443) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 1999-02-28 01:45:00 Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ On Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:19:55 -0500, John A. Gunterman wrote (after confessing incredible stupidity regarding the US system of measurements): >Can anybody tell me: >How many grams of shellac flake to a Liter to get a 3 Lb Cut? 360 grams, more or less. Question for Jeff: has the "X pound cut" shellac dilution traditionally been used in the UK? Given that an Imperial gallon is slightly larger than a U.S. gallon, this would lead to slightly different dilutions with the same nominal designation. Of course, shellac dilution isn't something requiring great precision, anyway. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA New Email address: avogadro@b... (also avogadro@w...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 58612 (thread 25443) ---- From: Kenneth Stagg Date: 1999-02-28 01:49:00 Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ "John A. Gunterman" wrote: > > In my defence, I can plead that while I was in grade school, we were tought > the Metric System. Anybody remeber that silly little system of weights and > measures that was all the rage in the US back in the 70's ?-) > Sure. I even remember that the metric system has been the official measuring system in the United States for over a hundred years. The unofficial folks, though, are taking their sweet bippy time adopting it. -Ken, who'd really love to not have to deal with silly ft-in-sx measures at work. ---- Start of Message 58624 (thread 25443) ---- From: b2d@e... (Duke of URLs) Date: 1999-02-28 20:44:00 Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ >Can anybody tell me: >How many grams of shellac flake to a Liter to get a 3 Lb Cut? Beats me John. Some things make my hair hurt and I tend to rely on the kindness of strangers. Thank god for the Internet and people who put conversion calculators on Web pages. http://www.brookings.net/~darinaf/measure.html http://www.mplik.ru/~sg/transl/capacity.html Going a little off track from the original enquiry. http://www.kiva.net/~rjbrown/w5/equivs.html http://www.reade.com/Conversion/wire_gauge.html For us math impaired. http://www.mathsoft.com/asolve/constant/constant.html http://tqd.advanced.org/2647/geometry/glossary.htm In an effort to swing this back to wooddorking. http://home.att.net/~BnPWOOD/doyle.html http://www.forestworld.com/cgi-bin/conversions_mainframe.html http://www.woodweb.com/backart/wengert/logvolume.html http://www.cnr.colostate.edu/~robin/f321.html http://www.anu.edu.au/Forestry/mensuration/DBHOB.HTM Keith Bohn ---- Start of Message 58625 (thread 25443) ---- From: Stu Ritter Date: 1999-02-28 13:50:00 Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ Our infamous spoke shave maker asked, >A while ago I posted a question about some shellac that did not completely >dissolve. And speaking of dissolving shellac, I was trying to find some high quality denatured alcohol for my shellacking and I happened to call Rocky Mountain Reagents and found that 1 gallon of Analytic Reagent grade (as pure as it gets) denatured ethanol costs only $12.oo in quantities of 4 gallons (1 case). I bought a case and mixed up my first batch with it. To get any alcohol odor, you must actually stick your nose into the container, there is no overwhelming odor in the shop. It works very well. With shaking the mixing jar every couple of minutes, a 2 lb. cut dissolved in about 20 minutes. I have used Behecol before and I think the Reagent grade is much better.. Stu Ritter ---- Start of Message 58627 (thread 25443) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-28 14:34:00 Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ Stu returns: >And speaking of dissolving shellac, I was trying to find some high >quality denatured alcohol for my shellacking and I happened to call >Rocky Mountain Reagents and found that 1 gallon of Analytic >Reagent grade (as pure as it gets) denatured ethanol costs only >$12.oo in quantities of 4 gallons (1 case). Hey, that is a pretty good price compared to getting 99% from the apothecary. Any of the "locals" wanna go in on a order? Got thier phone # handy ? while looking for other sources I just found a fascinating page at: http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/ethanol/ethanol.html ---- Start of Message 58637 (thread 25443) ---- From: snoe749@i... Date: 1999-02-28 18:49:00 Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ The GunterMan writes: > In my defence, I can plead that while I was in grade school, we were tought > the Metric System. Anybody remeber that silly little system of weights and > measures that was all the rage in the US back in the 70's ?-) > > > Can anybody tell me: > How many grams of shellac flake to a Liter to get a 3 Lb Cut? > -- No, No, No, do not, under any circumstances try to convert from English to metric, or vice-versa. This is the worst thing that math teachers (all the way up to the "College Algebra" my students are expected to deal with) do. Just use the appropriate measure. Obligatory OT content - unh, none. Steve Noe, in Indianapolis snoe749@i... ---- Start of Message 58639 (thread 25443) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-02-28 19:11:00 Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ On Sat, 27 Feb 1999 17:49:25 -0800 Kenneth Stagg writes: >Sure. I even remember that the metric system has been the official >measuring system in the United States for over a hundred years. The >unofficial folks, though, are taking their sweet bippy time adopting it. > Alexander Hamilton is largely responsible for the decimal monetary system used in the US. He also advocated a decimal system of weights and measures but he was taken out an shot before he got that pushed through. In light of Mr Hamilton's experience it's no wonder people have hesitated to advocate strongly of mandatory use of decimal systems. BTW, when discussing metric weights and measures it's a good idea to specify _which_ metric system you mean. There are more than one. I've never tried woodworking in SI, I have heard that it's a bit awkward. Measuring to the nearest cm is too course for framing, and to the nearest mm is insanely precise. A lot of scales will show 1/2 cms (5 mm tics) but that is still a bit course. Measurement to the nearest 3mm is about right for rough carpentry but that requires that you read to the nearest mm and round to the nearest three which is a PIA. For fine cabinetry, the mm is just a bit too coarse, a scale graduated in .1 mm is way too small to be read and do they make any marked every 0.5 mm? The advantage to binary fractions, instead of decimal, is that one has better choices of metric for a specific application. Customary units, which are what we commonly use here in the US, are a mix of Imperial, avoirdupois, SI, and a few uniquelly American (US gallon) that became customary because they are a convenient size for everyday use. And in the days before decimal notation became the norm, arithmetic was _easier_ with these units too. ---- Start of Message 58640 (thread 25443) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-02-28 19:11:00 Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ On Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:19:55 -0500 "John A. Gunterman" writes: > >Can anybody tell me: >How many grams of shellac flake to a Liter to get a 3 Lb Cut? >-- >John A. Gunterman... Horse shoeing for cash only. > About 330 grams. There are approximately 28 grams/ounce, 16 ounces/pound and approximately 4 liters/gallon. This is for ounces and pounds avoirdepois, of course. So the arithmetic goes like this, where * means 'multiply by' and / means 'divide by' : (3lb/gal) * (16oz/lb) * (28gm/oz) / (4l/gal) = 336 gm/l Here I assume that one uses ounces and pounds avoirdepois. The difference between an Imperial gallon and and American and the errors in the ratios of gram/oz and l/gal above are pretty trivial for something as inexact as mixing shellac. ---- Start of Message 58646 (thread 25443) ---- From: "Stephan Patnaude" Date: 1999-02-28 21:40:00 Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ Douglas S Caprette wrote: >Alexander Hamilton is largely responsible for the decimal monetary >system used in the US. He also advocated a decimal system of weights >and measures but he was taken out an shot before he got that pushed >through. In light of Mr Hamilton's experience it's no wonder people have >hesitated to advocate strongly of mandatory use of decimal systems. Just another thing to think about when turning a Burr on a duel edged scraper....... Am I the only one who makes saturated shellac solutions (keep adding flakes till no more will dissolve) which are then diluted according to use? The undissolved but soggy shellac is not wasted; just flame broiled to make boo boo sticks ala Frid. Stephan "why not dodecimal division of a hogshead?" Patnaude ---- Start of Message 58688 (thread 25443) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-03-01 07:05:00 Subject: RE: 16 oz = 1_pint_ ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of ~ Michael D. ~ Sullivan ~ Sent: Sunday, February 28, 1999 1:45 AM ~ To: OLDTOOLS list ~ Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ ~ ~ ~ On Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:19:55 -0500, John A. Gunterman wrote (after ~ confessing incredible stupidity regarding the US system of ~ measurements): ~ ~ >Can anybody tell me: ~ >How many grams of shellac flake to a Liter to get a 3 Lb Cut? ~ ~ 360 grams, more or less. ~ ~ Question for Jeff: has the "X pound cut" shellac dilution ~ traditionally ~ been used in the UK? As far as I know, yes. Never use the stuff. For 50 years I have used a butylated urea formaldehyde plasticised with alyd and reinforced with melamine with the unfortunate name of Rustin's Plastic Coating. Swear by it. Just used it on top of a formerly French polished salon chair with the old gunk painstakingly softened with meths and then scraped with a blunt penknife blade. ~ Given that an Imperial gallon is ~ slightly larger than ~ a U.S. gallon, this would lead to slightly different ~ dilutions with the same ~ nominal designation. Concise English Dictionary: Capacity Measure British 1 pint = 20 fluid oz = 0.568 litre = 34.68 cu. in. 1 fluid oz = 0.0284 litre = 1.8047 cu. in. I hope this helps, as they say. Jeff ---- Start of Message 58705 (thread 25443) ---- From: eoh@k... Date: 1999-03-01 14:56:00 Subject: RE: 16 oz = 1_pint_ From: Esther Heller >From Jeff Gorman: ~ Given that an Imperial gallon is ~ slightly larger than ~ a U.S. gallon, this would lead to slightly different ~ dilutions with the same ~ nominal designation. Concise English Dictionary: Capacity Measure British 1 pint = 20 fluid oz = 0.568 litre = 34.68 cu. in. 1 fluid oz = 0.0284 litre = 1.8047 cu. in. I've been through this before in cooking, we both use the same size 8 oz cup (about 2.5 deciliters) but the British quart has 5 cups and the US quart has 4. We both agree on 4 qt = 1 gallon, so the British gallon has 5 US qts. But to get back to OT, a British 3# cut would be slightly thinner than a US one, but the only place it matters is buying premixed cans. Esther eoh@k... ---- Start of Message 58769 (thread 25443) ---- From: Richard Danzey Date: 1999-03-02 01:40:00 Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ Jeff; Is there an equivalent sold in the US? Your way of describing this marvelous stuff (butylated urea formaldehyde plasticised....etc.) leads me to suspect you are a chemist. How will a person unfamiliar with chemistry be able to recognise similar products? Thank you for mentioning this product. I hope you can help us find it's American brother. Best wishes.... danz Jeff Gorman wrote: > > ~ -----Original Message----- > ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... > ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of > ~ Michael D. > ~ Sullivan > ~ Sent: Sunday, February 28, 1999 1:45 AM > ~ To: OLDTOOLS list > ~ Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ > ~ > ~ > ~ On Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:19:55 -0500, John A. Gunterman wrote (after > ~ confessing incredible stupidity regarding the US system of > ~ measurements): > ~ > ~ >Can anybody tell me: > ~ >How many grams of shellac flake to a Liter to get a 3 Lb Cut? > ~ > ~ 360 grams, more or less. > ~ > ~ Question for Jeff: has the "X pound cut" shellac dilution > ~ traditionally > ~ been used in the UK? > > As far as I know, yes. Never use the stuff. > > For 50 years I have used a butylated urea formaldehyde plasticised > with alyd and reinforced with melamine with the unfortunate name of > Rustin's Plastic Coating. Swear by it. > > Just used it on top of a formerly French polished salon chair with the > old gunk painstakingly softened with meths and then scraped with a > blunt penknife blade. > > ~ Given that an Imperial gallon is > ~ slightly larger than > ~ a U.S. gallon, this would lead to slightly different > ~ dilutions with the same > ~ nominal designation. > > Concise English Dictionary: > > Capacity Measure > British > 1 pint = 20 fluid oz = 0.568 litre > = 34.68 cu. in. > 1 fluid oz = 0.0284 litre > = 1.8047 cu. in. > > I hope this helps, as they say. > > Jeff > -- > Jeff Gorman - West Yorkshire > Jeff@m... > http://www.millard.demon.co.uk/index.html > > -- ---- Start of Message 58772 (thread 25443) ---- From: "David Barnett" Date: 1999-03-02 02:00:00 Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ Richard Danzey wrote: >Jeff; Is there an equivalent sold in the US? Your way of describing >this marvelous stuff (butylated urea formaldehyde plasticised....etc.) >leads me to suspect you are a chemist. How will a person unfamiliar >with chemistry be able to recognise similar products? Thank you for >mentioning this product. I hope you can help us find it's American >brother. Best wishes.... Jeff wrote: >> For 50 years I have used a butylated urea formaldehyde plasticised >> with alyd and reinforced with melamine with the unfortunate name of >> Rustin's Plastic Coating. Swear by it. First guess: Cheeze Whiz Second guess: Waterlox David Barnett Northampton, MA ---- Start of Message 58830 (thread 25443) ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1999-03-02 22:47:00 Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ David Barnett wrote: > > Jeff wrote: > > >> For 50 years I have used a butylated urea formaldehyde plasticised > >> with alyd and reinforced with melamine with the unfortunate name of > >> Rustin's Plastic Coating. Swear by it. > > First guess: Cheeze Whiz > Second guess: Waterlox Funny, I was thinking 'polyurethane'. :-) Ed ---- Start of Message 58836 (thread 25443) ---- From: "David Barnett" Date: 1999-03-03 00:06:00 Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ Ed Bell wrote: >David Barnett wrote: >> >> Jeff wrote: >> >> >> For 50 years I have used a butylated urea formaldehyde plasticised >> >> with alyd and reinforced with melamine with the unfortunate name of >> >> Rustin's Plastic Coating. Swear by it. >> >> First guess: Cheeze Whiz >> Second guess: Waterlox > >Funny, I was thinking 'polyurethane'. :-) So was I, Ed... but I didn't have the heart to say it. David Barnett Northampton, MA ---- Start of Message 58856 (thread 25443) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-03-03 07:07:00 Subject: RE: 16 oz = 1_pint_ ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Richard ~ Danzey ~ Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 1:41 AM ~ To: Jeff@m... ~ Cc: 'Michael D. Sullivan'; 'OLDTOOLS list' ~ Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ ~ ~ ~ Jeff; Is there an equivalent sold in the US? It is marketed by Rustins, a well know supplier of polishes in the UK. He advertises in the British Woodworking magazines. I suspect that if he exports, the best place to look will be in the comprehensive catalogues. A quick scan of FWW revealed nothing. If not you are missing a useful and easy to apply product. It is alcohol and other stuff resisting, though not some particular (but unknown) gunge that my wife has used on our dressing table top. ~ ............... Your way of describing ~ this marvelous stuff (butylated urea formaldehyde ~ plasticised....etc.) ~ leads me to suspect you are a chemist. I fear not. Many years ago I just happened to have made a note of something Ronnie Rustin wrote to a mag. ~ ..................... How will a person unfamiliar ~ with chemistry be able to recognise similar products? It is a two-pot formulation, ie coating and hardener, but is Rustin's own, so I doubt whether it will be repeated elsewhere. Now then, the people who usually exercise such a touching concern for my education have so far neglected to explain the meaning of the 'duh' that I read quite frequently. Jeff ---- Start of Message 58888 (thread 25443) ---- From: "Yarrow, Gary SH" Date: 1999-03-03 17:20:00 Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ I was curious and started looking this up. Since I have an array of chemical sources at my finger tips (this happens when you are the chemical safety officer for a university). I could only find one source of this stuff, made by a French pharmaceutical firm. It is not polyurethane, its more like a two part glue. We are all familiar with urea formaldehyde glues (used in plywood, particle board, etc.), the 'butylated' part was hard to find. BTW, if you ever do need to find info on some strange chemicals, check out www.hazard.com Its a great chemical resource for MSDS's and such. The University of Vermont sponsors it. Its quire useful. Gary ---------- > Jeff wrote: > > >> For 50 years I have used a butylated urea formaldehyde plasticised > >> with alyd and reinforced with melamine with the unfortunate name of > >> Rustin's Plastic Coating. Swear by it. > > First guess: Cheeze Whiz > Second guess: Waterlox Funny, I was thinking 'polyurethane'. :-) ---- Start of Message 58895 (thread 25443) ---- From: Jack Kamishlian Date: 1999-03-03 20:14:00 Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ Jeff, "Duh" is an expression usually accompanied with the heel of one's hand hitting one's forehead. It usually means: -I should have thought of that -How could I have been sooo stupid/dumb -I wasn't thinking when I said/did that -I knew that, and shouldn't have had to ask -It was there, right before my eyes, but I didn't see it. And similar reasons for one to admit that one has made a mistake or assumption and doesn't have a leg to stand on to justify it. Others may think of a better definition, but these are some that come to my mind. Cheers, Jack in Endwell, NY Jeff Gorman wrote: > > Now then, the people who usually exercise such a touching concern for > my education have so far neglected to explain the meaning of the 'duh' > that I read quite frequently. > > Jeff > -- > Jeff Gorman - West Yorkshire > Jeff@m... > http://www.millard.demon.co.uk/index.html > > -- ---- Start of Message 58936 (thread 25443) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-03-04 07:12:00 Subject: RE: 16 oz = 1_pint_ ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of David ~ Barnett ~ Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 12:07 AM ~ To: oldtools@l... ~ Subject: Re: 16 oz = 1_pint_ ~ ~ ~ >> >> For 50 years I have used a butylated urea formaldehyde ~ plasticised ~ >> >> with alyd and reinforced with melamine with the ~ unfortunate name of ~ >> >> Rustin's Plastic Coating. Swear by it. ~ >> ~ >> First guess: Cheeze Whiz ~ >> Second guess: Waterlox ~ > ~ >Funny, I was thinking 'polyurethane'. :-) ~ ~ So was I, Ed... but I didn't have the heart to say it. This is a two-pot lacquer, can be applied nice and thinly to preserve a near open grain look. Aren't polyurethanes varnishes? Jeff ++++ End of thread 25443 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25444 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58613 (thread 25444) ---- From: ecoyle@c... (eric coyle) Date: 1999-02-28 02:21:00 Subject: re: scrapers Lee was wonderin.... . A few days ago someone mentioned in their post that they preferred the finish left by the plane over that left by the scraper. What am I missing here? I thought that the reason galloots used scrapers instead of sandpaper was that they acted like very tiny planes, taking very small, fine shavings, thereby leaving that nice open look to the wood. Also, although I have read in your posts that scrapers don't work well on most pine(and proven it empirically for myself) I don't understand *why* it is so. Can anyone enlighten me here? Lee Smith Paul was sayin,,,, A scraper doesn't have most of the features that make a plane plane well : rigid iron, solid bed, a straight reasonably small mouth, a straight cutting edge and, for hand-held scrapers, a sole to keep everything nicely aligned. A scraper does have a nicely shaped chipbreaker set really close to the edge, which is why it performs with such little tearout (though it doesn't do that with any kind of accuracy). I also find it a lot easier to put a very keen edge on an iron than on a scraper. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ********************************* There's just some woods that don't work well with scrapers. Pine, poplar, spruce, knots of any kind.....etc. Maybe ya might get a few good shavings when the edge is pristine, but after that it starts to raise fuzz. Them thar grains is like a bunch of tubes "glued together", some woods having stronger "glue" than others, so when the force used in slicing through that tube exceeds the strength of the glue holding it to the next tube, why the tube just gets ripped out. Fuzz results. Thats my thinkin. Cowtown Eric ++++ End of thread 25444 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25445 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58614 (thread 25445) ---- From: BRUCE_VANSLOUN@H... Date: 1999-02-28 02:28:00 Subject: Turining tools inside out... Item Subject: Text Item GGs, I while ago I posted about some turning tools that I managed to wrestle home. They are DR Bartons. Really like 'em I do. Anyway there are two gouges that are sharpened incannel and I asked about 'em. One GG suggested that they were for turning convex shapes. Well I tried 'em for that and by golly they work really nice! I was waaaaay tentative in that I was sure that they would catch and edge, but they behaved quite nicely. Given the size of this persons kit, he had QUITE a pile, I could imagine that he would have such a specialized tool. It really does enable one to turn a much smoother bead or ball. Bruce Just say (TM PL) all them beads on Victorian post had to come from somewhere... ++++ End of thread 25445 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25446 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58618 (thread 25446) ---- From: "Tim Swihart" Date: 1999-02-28 09:05:00 Subject: fun with fuming..."before" and "after" pictures posted The semi-recent thread on fuming reminded me that I've wanted to try this finishing/coloring technique for quite some time, but never had the right project to try it with. Then, it dawned on me...my bow saw's made mostly of Oak and its color really won't affect its performance...perfect candidate for fuming. So, last Saturday afternoon, I rigged up a fuming "tent", disassembled my saw, placed the pieces in the tent (the pieces weree suspended on nails above the ammonia), carefully added ammonia, closed the tent's lid, and crossed my fingers. A couple hours later, I checked on it and the color was starting to darken but clearly had a long ways to go. I'm sure the process goes faster if you don't keep removing the lid to check your progress (which vents most of the ammonia), but I wanted to be cautious my first time and I was eager to see fuming's results... After about a day and a half, I added more ammonia because things seemed to have slowed down. That helped gets things going again (and I was starting to figure out that you can't check it every few hours without wasting a lot of ammonia). In the end, my saw soaked in the fumes for about four days. Yes, it was darkening every day...and that's with a heavy coat of boiled linseed oil on it (and dried for several weeks before starting the fuming). It's amazing how well the fumes penetrated the oil finish! Along the way, the color had sort of a greenish-yellow tint to it (I was afraid the coloring in the ammonia I was using was somehow tagging along w/ the fumes). Just in case, future fuming will be done with uncolored ammonia. :-) After the last refill of ammonia on Day 3, and a full 24+ hours of soaking without opening the lid even once, the dark brown colors I'd been hoping for finally showed up. I was really pleased with the colors I saw when I opened the lid late Wednesday night! Anybody interested in seeing "before" and "after" photos should point their browser to: http://www.geocities.com:80/Heartland/Estates/7042/index.html Scroll down and you'll see the original photo I posted a few weeks ago and under it is the same saw after being fumed for four days. I was pleased that the Silky Oak (which is NOT a true Oak) that I used for the tensioning stick darkened in color, as did the Cherry knob and handle. The "after" picture doesn't capture the tensioning stick's color as well as I'd like it to (the lacy grain REALLY stands out after fuming). I have a bunch of the Silky Oak on hand and will definitely fume more of it in the future...it really brings out the grain. I used household ammonia cleaner...sold in a local grocery store's detergent aisle...rather than the industrial strength variety. Takes longer, but you're less likely to seriously hurt yourself if you get a whiff or two of the fumes along the way. Tim S. ---- Start of Message 58621 (thread 25446) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-28 12:53:00 Subject: Re: fun with fuming..."before" and "after" pictures posted >It's amazing how well the fumes penetrated the oil finish! It certainly _is_ amazing.... Just plain old household amonia, huh? I pesonally detest "staining" or coloring woods to make thjem something they are not, but this fuming does not look all that grotesque to my eye... I think you are on to something here..... >Anybody interested in seeing "before" and "after" photos should point their >browser to: >http://www.geocities.com:80/Heartland/Estates/7042/index.html ++++ End of thread 25446 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25447 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58619 (thread 25447) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-02-28 12:16:00 Subject: WTB 720's / plow irons Greetings GG's It seems as though I've completed the search for 750's now having given up on ever finding a 1/8 and a 1 3/4. So, now I am looking for 720's (it seems as though I HAVE to be looking for SOMETHING) Also, I'm looking for plow irons. Please let me know what you have. Thanks in advance Tom Eric Anton Berg chisels/tools Eskilstuna, Sweden Casey and Co. or Casey, Kitchel and Co. woodies WILLIAM MARPLES & SON, SHEFFIELD H&Rs in sizes #11 / 14 / 15 MATHIESON H&Rs Stanley 921 Braces in 6 and 14 inch swings 720 Stanley chisels Osborne #149 arch punches in sizes 1 1/4 : 1 1/2 Plow irons: Hildick / Ward / Sandusky / Ohio / ++++ End of thread 25447 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25448 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58622 (thread 25448) ---- From: tom thornton Date: 1999-02-28 17:32:00 Subject: Data Base keeping tool list Keeping a list of tools both for insurance purpose and information is a simple data base application I would be happy to coach via email anyone interested in setting up their tool list. MSworks, Access, and Lotus Approach all will do the job with ease. (Sorry I'm not that skilled using Lotus 1 2 3 though I'm sure it woukd work as well. ---- Start of Message 58653 (thread 25448) ---- From: Walt Lane Date: 1999-02-28 22:32:00 Subject: Re: Data Base keeping tool list GG's My .02, FWIW, on data base use for tool lists: I concur with those who have counselled "KISS". I started using a small Data Base named "Nutshell" many years ago. Can sort by each field if desired. Can save in ASCII form and import to MS Access which I have done, but haven't then used Access to try to manipulate data (the Nutshell format is just too easy to use). I'm not sure whether Iris Software, makers of Nutshell, are even in business any more....probably absorbed into some larger corporation as was the case with so many small companies. Jist of this narrative....a simple program does the trick. Access works great, just don't need all the bells and whistles at this time. Walt ++++ End of thread 25448 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25449 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58626 (thread 25449) ---- From: Elp222@a... Date: 1999-02-28 13:54:00 Subject: Winchester Plane #s? I've not seen any threads on Winchester numbering system. Check your bottom drawers (wood not cloth) for any information. Just tossing out a line to fish..... ep ++++ End of thread 25449 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25450 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58628 (thread 25450) ---- From: "Thomas E. McCluskey" Date: 1999-02-28 14:58:00 Subject: Practical Woodworker Dear GGs I am on a quest to get a copy of "The Practical Woodworker." The book is out of print and is not in stock at my local Barnes & Noble. However, the clerk there told me that if I could find a copy at a B&N store, that they could have it shipped here. Soooo, if anyone has seen a copy at their local B&N say in the past week or so, will you please contact me privately with the store location and phone number? I can then get my store to contact your store and get a copy shipped to me. Thanks for the help. Tom McCluskey- Member in good standing of the Ancient and Honorable order of Bottomfeeders (AHOB). (By permission) Midland, TX ---- Start of Message 58656 (thread 25450) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-03-01 00:03:00 Subject: RE: Practical Woodworker Try going right to the source. The book is published by 10 Speed Press and is listed on their website: http://www.tenspeed.com Here is the link to the actual page: http://www.tenspeed.com/catalog/catalogpage.cfm?id=697&itemtype=1 Cost: $9.95 I bought a copy from Barnes and Noble about two years ago. They had a big stack on the "Discount Table" right inside the front door. Think I paid something like $4.00 for it. I wish I had bought the whole stack. Oh well. Anyway, hope this helps. Keith Rucker Tifton, GA -----Original Message----- From: Thomas E. McCluskey [mailto:tmcclus@j...] Sent: Sunday, February 28, 1999 9:59 AM To: oldtools@l... Subject: Practical Woodworker Dear GGs I am on a quest to get a copy of "The Practical Woodworker." The book is out of print and is not in stock at my local Barnes & Noble. However, the clerk there told me that if I could find a copy at a B&N store, that they could have it shipped here. Soooo, if anyone has seen a copy at their local B&N say in the past week or so, will you please contact me privately with the store location and phone number? I can then get my store to contact your store and get a copy shipped to me. Thanks for the help. Tom McCluskey- Member in good standing of the Ancient and Honorable order of Bottomfeeders (AHOB). (By permission) Midland, TX ---- Start of Message 58724 (thread 25450) ---- From: Robert Arthur Date: 1999-03-01 17:37:00 Subject: RE: Practical Woodworker I just got off the phone with Ten Speed and the status hasn't change. Out of print with no plans to reprint. As someone who is also looking for this book I have been checking with Ten Speed about every three months. The answer hasn't changed in almost 2 years. I've even tried a UK search through Richard Wilson. They're hard to come by. Still looking in Dumfries, VA. Rob Arthur rob@p... At 07:03 PM 2/28/99 , Keith wrote: [snip of Ten Speed Press URL] ---- Start of Message 58737 (thread 25450) ---- From: Michael D Sohn Date: 1999-03-01 18:52:00 Subject: Re: Practical Woodworker I saw a few copies at the Jack London Square, Alameda, California Barnes and Noble. I think I saw it for around $15. The cover was different than my copy but the inside looked the same (I'll check if you would like). See if you can get it transferred or let me know and I'll be happy to buy it and put it in the mail. Mike ---- Start of Message 58783 (thread 25450) ---- From: JF1616@a... Date: 1999-03-02 04:56:00 Subject: Re: Practical Woodworker Hi Tom and others looking for The Practical Woodworker, Powells books has a copy for $9.95 I think. They're url is http://www.powells.com It's in the crafts, woodworking section or just search under Bernard E Jones. They have lots of interesting used, hard to find books Though there have been a couple of books I wanted that they couldn't actually find, still am a satisfied customer. For one book you might find it faster just to call. They have 800 numbers for their different locations. Regards, Janet Fisher Miami, Fl ---- Start of Message 59044 (thread 25450) ---- From: "Thomas E. McCluskey" Date: 1999-03-05 04:04:00 Subject: Re:Practical Woodworker Dear GGs I would like thank all the Galoots who sent suggestions on where to find "The Practical Woodworker." Unfortunately, I still haven't found a copy, so the search continues. Tom McCluskey- Member in good standing of the Ancient and Honorable order of Bottomfeeders (AHOB). (By permission) Midland, TX ++++ End of thread 25450 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25451 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58632 (thread 25451) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-02-28 16:22:00 Subject: Re: fun with fuming... Tim Swihart is amazed: >>It's amazing how well the fumes penetrated the oil finish! As is John Gunterman: >It certainly _is_ amazing.... Just plain old household amonia, huh? >I pesonally detest "staining" or coloring woods to make thjem something >they are not, but this fuming does not look all that grotesque to my eye... >I think you are on to something here..... I guess a person needs to post pichurs to elicit amazment around here. Tim's results are consistent with my limited experience fuming A&C inspired lamp bases, in both red and white oak, reported here a couple months back. I too used reg'lar household cleaning ammonia, and a 5 gal. plastic bucket with tight-sealing lid (mud bucket-that drywall spackling comes in). I checked the first one after about 12 hours, and it was turning brown but had some of the sickly yellow-green tinge Tim mentions, and I was using clear ammonia. sealed it back up for another 24 hours, and no green, just a rich, even brown, with all grain and rays showing. Since then I've done a straight no-peekee 36 hours or so, with good results. Also, unlike what one might speculate, the grain on these unfinished pieces was not raised at all. Another day in the air to dissipate lingering ammonia odor, an application of Watco clear, and it's done. I'm amazed too, that Tim's saw frame responded so well even after having linseed oil treatment. Maybe no finish at all makes the difference between 4 days and a day and a half. Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 58645 (thread 25451) ---- From: Howard Slack Date: 1999-02-28 20:44:00 Subject: Re: fun with fuming... It seems that if you want to do much fuming, it would be worthwhile to make a little booth with clear window plastic on at least one side, or even an old glass window. That way you could see what is happening without opening it up. The fuming would go faster (no lost gases), and you wouldn't accidentally over-darken a piece. Howard Slack ---- Start of Message 58853 (thread 25451) ---- From: "Tim Swihart" Date: 1999-03-03 03:51:00 Subject: Re: Fun with fuming... Tom replied to my post w/: > Tim wrote: > >>I tried it even though I'd already oiled the piece because somewhere a few >>years back, there was an article on fuming and the author had oiled some >>other woods and found it helped produce better color (on non-Oak >>species...treated them with tannic acid too perhaps?). > > I got two references in my search of my woodworking mags database (done > in FileMaker Pro which is THE database program for both ease of use and > power). > > FWW, Vol. 126, pg. 46 "Fuming with ammonia; how to get an authentic > Arts-and-Crafts finish safely and effectively." by Kevin Rodel > > FWW, Vol. 28, pg 70 "Fumed Oak Finish", by Sam Allen. > > Rodel's article has an interesting comparison chart of woods and their > coloration before and after fuming. Looks to me like fuming cherry could > be a good substitute for darkening with a lye solution. Rodel's sounds like what I was trying to dig up. Thanks! I'll go dive into my FWW stash and see if I can find Vol. 126 and refresh my fuming memory. :-) Thanks! Tim S. ++++ End of thread 25451 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25452 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58634 (thread 25452) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-02-28 17:43:00 Subject: On the straight and level. I picked up two cast iron levels that I was unable to resist. I am, of course, totally ignorant of the subject. Hope I did not throw money down the drain ($32 for the pair ), or worse, pick up collector's items as users. One is about 12" long, has moderate scrollwork separating the rails, and is lettered: "The L.S.S. Co.,Athiol, Mass. U.S.A." I assume this is a Starrett. The rails are lightly rusted, but the paint inside the rails is 90-95%. The second is 24" long and much more elaborate scrollwork. It has heavy rust on the rails, and is missing one of the two vertical level vials. The horizontal vial says " C.E. Jenkings & Co. New York" . The vials are in what appear to be nickel plated brass cylinders. Paint is 50%. Does anyone know anything about these? I was attracted because I thought the cast iron might be less subject to some of the warping problems of wood levels. I am thinking of using electrolysis on the larger one. Would I be correct in assuming that electrolysis would eat up the nickel plated brass vials if I did not remove them? ++++ End of thread 25452 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25453 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58636 (thread 25453) ---- From: LORI WESTOVER Date: 1999-02-28 18:10:00 Subject: READ ME I don't know how I started getting all these emails. I checked my email at school one day and some how I started getting these emails after that day. Please delete me from whatever kind of mailing list I am on. thank you!! _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 25453 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25454 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58638 (thread 25454) ---- From: Ron Hock Date: 1999-02-28 18:59:00 Subject: which woods are worst After my overly confident spouting off about how scrapers work (this is not a retraction -- I'm right, trust me) I've been asked off list which woods tear out the worst and must now reveal to those who don't already know that, well, I'm not a woodworker. There, I said it. Oh, I make shavings (even some sawdust) once in while (home repair, remodel, etc.) but I never seem to have the time, space or wherewithal to actually make a piece of furniture. I did make a spokeshave out in my backyard with The Gunterman and enjoyed myself immensely; but I digress. The question posed was about which woods might require the ultimate scraper solution and while I'm asking for opinions, lets get some raves for the polite woods of the world. So how about it? Rants and Raves R Us! Gracias y adios, Ronaldo ---- Start of Message 58641 (thread 25454) ---- From: "Dave Weisbord" Date: 1999-02-28 19:30:00 Subject: Re: which woods are worst ---------- >From: Ron Hock >To: "oldtools@l..." >Subject: which woods are worst >Date: Sun, Feb 28, 1999, 10:59 AM > > I've been asked off list which > woods tear out the worst I've had a tough time with some beautiful striped (Macassar) ebony I have. Dave ---- Start of Message 58649 (thread 25454) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-02-28 21:46:00 Subject: Re: which woods are worst -----Original Message----- From: Ron Hock To: oldtools@l... Date: Monday, 1 March 1999 03:25 Subject: which woods are worst >After my overly confident spouting off about how scrapers work (this is >not a retraction -- I'm right, trust me) I've been asked off list which >woods tear out the worst and must now reveal to those who don't already >know that, well, I'm not a woodworker. >There, I said it. Oh, I make shavings (even some sawdust) once in while >(home repair, remodel, etc.) but I never seem to have the time, space or >wherewithal to actually make a piece of furniture. 'sallright, Ron. Few of us make a living out of woodworking, so we can hardly be classed as such. I've got a wish: that you never find the time to become a woodworker. I'd rather have the great knifes and blades you make! >immensely; but I digress. The question posed was about which woods might >require the ultimate scraper solution and while I'm asking for opinions, >lets get some raves for the polite woods of the world. FWIW. Polite woods (of Australia, at least): Tasmanian Myrtle, Huon Pine, King Billy Pine, Red River Gum, Queensland Maple, White Beech, White Birch, Silky Oak, Australian Red Cedar. Good things and bad things: Tasmanian Oak, Jarrah, Rose Mahogany. Impolite woods of Australia: Sydney Blue Gum, Australian Blackwood, Black Bean, Spotted Gum, Blackbutt, Tallowwood. Preposterous: Red Lancewood and Cooktown Ironwood. Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ---- Start of Message 58650 (thread 25454) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-02-28 22:03:00 Subject: Re: which woods are worst >So how about it? Rants Pine, Poplar, Cherry, White Oak. >and Raves R Us! Lignum, Ebony, Tulipwood, Cocobolo, Ipe. Curly Hard Maple, Birdseye Maple, Walnut Burl. hey I see a trend developing here >Gracias y adios, Da nada. ---- Start of Message 58657 (thread 25454) ---- From: DNRSchwartz Date: 1999-02-28 18:58:00 Subject: Re: which woods are worst >So how about it? Rants and Raves R Us! > > I vote for cocobolo. It tears out when you _sand_ it with anything coarser 220 grit. I am truly in awe of people that work it with metal satisfactorily. Chris Schwartz, Former Brewer... Stealth Galoot #97 my galoot site- http://www.erols.com/dnrs/chris.html ---- Start of Message 58658 (thread 25454) ---- From: Hal Laurent Date: 1999-03-01 00:28:00 Subject: Re: which woods are worst >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "John A. Gunterman" said: > >>So how about it? Rants > >Pine, Poplar, Cherry, White Oak. > > >>and Raves R Us! > >Lignum, Ebony, Tulipwood, Cocobolo, Ipe. >Curly Hard Maple, Birdseye Maple, Walnut Burl. Hmmm, John, how do you define "rant" and "rave"? Your categorization seems backwards to me. Or perhaps I misunderstood the question... Hal Laurent, Baltimore Maryland Home: laurent@c... Work: harold.laurent@d... ---- Start of Message 58659 (thread 25454) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-03-01 01:13:00 Subject: Re: which woods are worst >>>So how about it? Rants >>Pine, Poplar, Cherry, White Oak. >>>and Raves R Us! >>Lignum, Ebony, Tulipwood, Cocobolo, Ipe. >>Curly Hard Maple, Birdseye Maple, Walnut Burl. >Hmmm, John, how do you define "rant" and "rave"? rant: does not scrape well. rave: Scrapes very well ---- Start of Message 58663 (thread 25454) ---- From: Elp222@a... Date: 1999-03-01 01:27:00 Subject: Re: which woods are worst Arizona desert Ironwood; that which grows on the north-east side of a hill away from any dry creek. The only way to get any smooth surface is to scrape. To which I am indepted to the Hock Beta Test 112/12 Blade. (off the rockwell scale) Erik I've had my car air conditioner on all ready...... ---- Start of Message 58701 (thread 25454) ---- From: "Matthew Matheny" Date: 1999-03-01 13:49:00 Subject: Re: which woods are worst Now I think that Cocabolo Can be difficult but I found it rather rewarding to work with. I use it on a regular basis and have found that if I use sharp tools and fresh sand paper it works well. My vote for the wood that is the most difficult to work is Padouk. Granted it is a beautiful wood, but it dulls tools, doesn't bother to tearout, it just shatters. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ++++ End of thread 25454 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25455 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58642 (thread 25455) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-02-28 20:28:00 Subject: Tote for the Record 050C plough I'd been meaning to replace the really weird tote on my 050C with something a little more traditional. Yesterday I bought an aluminum Stanley tote, for no particular reason. This morning the light went on and down I went into the shop to see if wouldn't serve on the 050C. It is :very: easy to install this tote since there are a couple of protrusions on the inside of the hollow tote casting that are just right to capture a square nut on end of a 1/4" screw passed up through the existing tote screw hole. The distance between these protrusions is a bit tight so I had to file the opening a tiny bit to allow the screw through. The tote is a bit too long and has to have a small amount of the front of the base cut off to fit into the depression in the plane body. I cut this off with a hacksaw and filed to fit. It's a good idea to make it a very tight fit so that the tote doesn't move around after it's tightened. I filled the hole in the top of the tote with solder and filed flush. The best part is that it looks great. The aluminum, with a fairly rough natural finish, is almost the same colour as the nickeled body so it blends right in. Looks like the plane was supposed to be this way. (Now the original blue tote looks even uglier than it did before). Oh, and the tote is really comfortable too. I don't know what the availability of aluminum totes is, but if you have an 050C I strongly recommend finding out. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 58704 (thread 25455) ---- From: Tim Fuss Date: 1999-03-01 14:59:00 Subject: Re: Tote for the record 050C plough Paul wrote about adapting an aluminum Stanley tote to replace the gawdawful plastic one that comes on the Record 050C... Not a bad approach, Paul! I went with a solution that was a bit more, er... labor intensive. Some will remember the Brazillian rosewood frenzy a couple of years back. When mine arrived, I just had to do something with it right away! I took a small piece off the end and made a replacement for the Record's plastic tote. I used a brace and bit for the tighter radii and then coped out the rest of the profile. Lots of work with chisels and rasps smoothed out the edges. Nice stuff to work with, BTW. The piece I used has a neat streak of sapwood at the top and bottom of the tote, which is shaped just like the Record on the bottom, but has a horn on the top. I cannot remember if I threaded the wood, or if I put in a threaded insert. Since they use a wierd screw head, I'm not gonna take it apart to look! Now I need to find a way to add a knob or grip of some type on the front of that plane. There really is no good place for the left hand. The next piece of that rosewood is going into the frame of a bow saw and smaller turning saw that I'm making now. Maybe I'll even get around to putting some images up onto a web page. Yeah, Right. In my spare time. ++++ End of thread 25455 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25456 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58643 (thread 25456) ---- From: Sanford Moss Date: 1999-02-28 20:35:00 Subject: Heartwood in a John M. Taber Plow Plane GGs, A few weeks ago I mentioned an unusual-seeming J.M.Taber plow plane tha t appeared to have a boxwood body that included the pith or heartwood. I took some pictures of this plane today and have put them up at: http://134.88.16.130/taber.htm The pith remarkably passes completely through the plane body from toe to heel, with very little evidence of checking. While the grain and patina of the body matches that of the screw arms, I now doubt that it is boxwood. It could be apple or another fruitwood--but one that is remarkably stable. Has anyone seen a plane like this? I'd be interested. Sandy **************************************** smoss@u... http://134.88.12.107/wworking.htm Phone (508) 999-8218 Fax (508) 999-8196 **************************************** ---- Start of Message 58944 (thread 25456) ---- From: Gary Roberts Date: 1999-03-04 11:59:00 Subject: Re: Heartwood in a John M. Taber Plow Plane Sanford... I have a solid boxwood fillester that has a knot through the middle. Tight and sound as can be. Also a boxwood plow, unnamed, that was cut from the heartwood. I think that, given the small nature of boxwood bushes, that the makers used every little bit. At 3:35 PM -0500 2/28/99, Sanford Moss wrote: >GGs, > A few weeks ago I mentioned an unusual-seeming J.M.Taber plow plane >that >appeared to have a boxwood body that included the pith or heartwood. I >took some pictures of this plane today and have put them up at: > > http://134.88.16.130/taber.htm > >The pith remarkably passes completely through the plane body from toe to >heel, with very little evidence of checking. While the grain and patina of >the body matches that of the screw arms, I now doubt that it is boxwood. >It could be apple or another fruitwood--but one that is remarkably stable. >Has anyone seen a plane like this? I'd be interested. > > Sandy > >**************************************** >smoss@u... >http://134.88.12.107/wworking.htm >Phone (508) 999-8218 >Fax (508) 999-8196 >**************************************** > >-- Gary Roberts Boston, MA...Antique tools, Art Pottery, Hong Kong cinema, what else is there? ---- Start of Message 59398 (thread 25456) ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1999-03-12 05:48:00 Subject: Re: Heartwood in a John M. Taber Plow Plane Boxwood is one of the few woods I know of where the pith can be retained in a piece without causing distortion and cracking as the wood dries. Turners regularly turn boxwood logs retaining their pith (which would be a disaster for most woods). So, I would bet that the fact that the Taber hasn't cracked is evidence that it *is* made of boxwood. -- Andrew Barss > At 3:35 PM -0500 2/28/99, Sanford Moss wrote: > >GGs, > > A few weeks ago I mentioned an unusual-seeming J.M.Taber plow plane > >that > >appeared to have a boxwood body that included the pith or heartwood. I > >took some pictures of this plane today and have put them up at: > > > > http://134.88.16.130/taber.htm > > > >The pith remarkably passes completely through the plane body from toe to > >heel, with very little evidence of checking. While the grain and patina of > >the body matches that of the screw arms, I now doubt that it is boxwood. ++++ End of thread 25456 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25457 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58648 (thread 25457) ---- From: Rick Young Date: 1999-02-28 09:45:00 Subject: "Bio" Rick Young Hello Galoots, I sent a bio before but I must not have used the correct address as it has never been put in with the other bio's. Soooooooo here goes again!! I live in Thermopolis, Wyoming with SWMBO and my son, used to live with three kids but two have grown and gone. They still stop buy for money once in a while but now live else where. I have always lived in Wyoming, oops, well all but six months I have lived in Wyoming. I have always loved things made of wood and have always played around a little with wood. I am just learning the "Old Tools Way", it is slower and harder but much more satisfying. Hell i was never any good with the power tools anyway so now i have an excuse. I started a lot of projects that turned into ashtrays over the years....and i must say my ashtry collection is excellent!! So here I am just a beginner and enjoying this list server with you "Galoots" very much. I learn something new each day i read your emails. I have a few old tools handed down to me by my grandfather and uncle that are my pride and joy. I will be looking to add to my collection this summer at auctions and yard sales as you all have opened the world of " Bottom Feeding" to me. I will strive to improve my bottom feeding to the point you can all be proud of me and let me stay under the porch on a regular basis to listen to all the good stories and dos and donts of the old way..... Oh and by the way when you live in Wyoming; full of cottonwood, pine and sagebrush the feel of a good piece of oak can be a sexual experience..... Rick ++++ End of thread 25457 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25458 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58651 (thread 25458) ---- From: Rick Young Date: 1999-02-28 09:59:00 Subject: Hand Saw Screws Galoots, I have some old saws, rusty but straight, i would like to remove the handles and use the electrolysis methoid of cleaning rust......one problem, cant get the screws loose...... what do you use to hold the flat side of the screw so it wont turn as you use your screw driver?? Also i need some new brass screws, even the ones with the disston trade mark....does anyone have some i can buy?? Any help is appreciated Rick (The only dumb question is the one you dont ask.) ---- Start of Message 58682 (thread 25458) ---- From: John Davis Date: 1999-03-01 03:28:00 Subject: Re: Hand Saw Screws Rick Young asked: Galoots, I have some old saws, i would like to remove the handles ...one problem, cant get the screws loose...... what do you use to hold the flat side of the screw so it wont turn as you use your screw driver?? Any help is appreciated Rick (The only dumb question is the one you dont ask.) Rick, I recently had the same problem and was successful with the following: take a large handscrew a la Jorgensen 3, drill a 3/4 dia hole through one jaw, set back about 3/8 from the end. clamp the handle with the hole over the screw slot. This clamps the medallion or flat nut while allowing you to turn the screw with your "turnscrew". I didn't damage anything and it worked at least on the one saw I tried it on so far. John Davis ---- Start of Message 58707 (thread 25458) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-03-01 15:06:00 Subject: Re: Hand Saw Screws HI Rick > >what do you use to hold the flat side of the screw so it wont turn as you >use your screw driver?? WHat I find works the best is to take a block of wood and clamp it tightly to the side of the saw that the unslotted screw is on. I just use a couple of little Jorgenson clamps on either end of a stick of hard maple. Since these are round headed screws that stick up a bit, the pressure of the stick forces the screw hard into the counterbored hole that it is in and the friction in the hole holds it tight so you can unscrew the slotted screw from the other side. Good luck; it's FRUSTRATING when these things can't be stopped from turning. Worst case scenario; the clamp block STILL won't grip it tightly enough? CLean up the brass with a good solvent and superglue/epoxy a little chip of wood on the head of the brass; let it cure completely, and then use the clamp method. After you have the screw out you can clean it up and reuse it. Tom ++++ End of thread 25458 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25459 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58652 (thread 25459) ---- From: Rick Young Date: 1999-02-28 10:09:00 Subject: Plane and saw handles Galoots, I need a new handle and a knob for my Stanley 22 inch #7. Also need a screw for the handle. I would also be interested in finding some replacement handles for a Disston saw.....it is old and rusty and i dont know much more than that, handle is split and if i can get the screws out maybe i can glue it. I need a knob for a miller falls, no number that i can see on the plane. It is not real old as the handle is a man made material...is about twelve inches long with a little hangy out piece at the bottom of the back of the handle(part of the sole) Rick (The only dumb question is the one you dont ask.) ++++ End of thread 25459 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25460 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58660 (thread 25460) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-03-01 01:18:00 Subject: The Saint James Bay Tool Co. Can anyone out there give me a web site URL or e-mail address to The Saint James Bay Tool Co. I have heard tell that they make among other things replacement cutters for Stanley Combo planes. I tried the e-mail address listed on the Electronic Neanderthal but mail sent to that address was returned as undeliverable. Web search engines also did not produce any results. Thanks, Keith Rucker Tifton, GA ---- Start of Message 58662 (thread 25460) ---- From: Stan Faullin Date: 1999-03-01 01:28:00 Subject: Re: The Saint James Bay Tool Co. At 08:18 PM 2/28/99 -0500, Keith Rucker wrote: >Can anyone out there give me a web site URL or e-mail address to The Saint >James Bay Tool Co. I have heard tell that they make among other things >replacement cutters for Stanley Combo planes. > >I tried the e-mail address listed on the Electronic Neanderthal but mail >sent to that address was returned as undeliverable. Web search engines also >did not produce any results. I don't believe they have a webpage, but complete contact info, including an email address is available on my webpage on the "Sources" page. Cheers, Stan Stan Faullin faullin@c... Visit my Old Tool Webpage at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/faullin ---- Start of Message 58671 (thread 25460) ---- From: elschaffer@j... Date: 1999-03-01 02:29:00 Subject: Re: The Saint James Bay Tool Co. st.james@d... --ErvSawwwwwwwwz On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:18:46 -0500 "Keith S. Rucker" writes: >Can anyone out there give me a web site URL or e-mail address to The >Saint >James Bay Tool Co. Thanks, > >Keith Rucker >Tifton, GA > >-- > > ++++ End of thread 25460 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25461 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58664 (thread 25461) ---- From: WLGhio@a... Date: 1999-03-01 01:30:00 Subject: FS - mixed bag STAIR SAW - Henry Disston & Sons, Philad'a Plenty of tool box dings to show its age. At first I thought it was unused, but after a careful look it is possible that it has had some refinishing done to it. Still in great shape for cutting those stair dados. $45.00 LOCK MORTISE CHISEL 1/2 INCH This is the mother of all chisels: 1/2 in. wide; 7/16ths thick at the top of the shaft, tapering to 1/4 in. at the start of the bevel; handle is five inches long and the overall length is 18 1/2 inches; brass ferrule. I bought this in Scotland and it is well cleaned ("over" to some) as seems to be the custom the UK. $45.00 BREAST DRILL - Millers Falls #12 Two speed model with built in level; two jaw chuck. Japanning is 98% and both handles are present with original finish. Plated parts are 90% "patina." $30.00 BITS - with user made box This is a mixed bag, but a good user set. Thirteen fine lead bits in graduated sizes from 4/16ths to 16/16ths (except that the #13 is missing and there are two #12's). There's 10 or 11 different markers marks. The #5, one of the #12's and the #15 are Irwin pattern, all the rest are Russell Jennings style. The box is user made of mahogany. It is an extremely well made box which holds the bits upright with an individual compartment for each bit. Set on the bench, it is very handy when selecting a bit. Unfortunately, when made it had a top, which has gone missing. These were my users till I came into an RJ three tier box set recently. $35.00 Oldtools Standard Terms apply. Bill Ghio wlghio@a... bghio@t... ++++ End of thread 25461 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25462 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58665 (thread 25462) ---- From: Gil Chesbro Date: 1999-03-01 01:42:00 Subject: Boxwood vs Beech GG's, I'm making spokeshaves again in preparation for teaching the class at Tillers this April 18th. I got my hands on what is purported to be boxwood. It looks a lot like beech to me, and so my question: does boxwood have ray fleck? Am I really working on lighter (color), harder piece of beech? And can anyone refer me to a website with a description or picture of boxwood? - Gil, still in Michigan ---- Start of Message 58678 (thread 25462) ---- From: "Rodney Myrvaagnes" Date: 1999-03-01 04:10:00 Subject: Re: Boxwood vs Beech Boxwood has absolutely no resemblance to beech. It does not have flecks. On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:42:04 -0500, Gil Chesbro wrote: >GG's, > I'm making spokeshaves again in preparation for teaching the class at >Tillers this April 18th. I got my hands on what is purported to be >boxwood. It looks a lot like beech to me, and so my question: does boxwood >have ray fleck? Am I really working on lighter (color), harder piece of >beech? > > And can anyone refer me to a website with a description or picture of >boxwood? > > >- Gil, still in Michigan > >-- > > Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a 20+ years without a car, a TV, or a website ---- Start of Message 58758 (thread 25462) ---- From: Wade McDonald Date: 1999-03-01 23:00:00 Subject: Re: Boxwood vs Beech GGs, Gil asks the difference between Boxwood and Beech, especially: >does boxwood have ray fleck? Am I really working on lighter (color), harder piece of beech? I'm no expert, but since they haven't piped up, I'll chip in. My boxwood "expertise" comes from owning a small supply of rules, marking gauges, chisels and spokeshaves. Many of these items are obvious- especially the really nice old Turkish Boxwood. Later items are not quite as nice or obvious, they are Venezuelan Boxwood which is not as tight a grain. The Stanley beech marking gauges I have seen seem to have large ray fleck if beech.Their boxwood items vary from no fleck to very small fleck. I have several spokeshaves which are beech, and a couple boxwood. A while back I got a pair which I was less sure of- due to ray fleck. The fleck is very dependent on orientation. But one I feel pretty sure is a very tight grained beech , the other a somewhat loose grained boxwood. The biggest flecks are bigger on the beech but its not obvious - one knowledgable Galoot figured they were both boxwood after a quick glance. Someone else might insist some other wood is involved- but IMHO there is boxwood out there with fine ray fleck, and there is beech wood with somewhat less fine ray fleck. And you better go buy some nice tools so you have some samples to compare against. Nice pics: check out Ralph's Gage page, fer instance http://www.mcs.net/~brendler/oldtools/gages/65.htm Or the 74 for a nice creamy Turkish boxwood. Regards, Wade ++++ End of thread 25462 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25463 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58666 (thread 25463) ---- From: b2d@e... (Duke of URLs) Date: 1999-03-01 08:39:00 Subject: Dogs Can Be Galoots Something I stumbled on that I thought some of you might like. http://www.delweb.com/nfmuseum/notes9.htm "The dog eventually died, however, and Henry William was unsuccessful in training another dog to perform the chore." Keith Bohn ++++ End of thread 25463 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25464 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58667 (thread 25464) ---- From: David Tardiff Date: 1999-03-01 01:48:00 Subject: The great Hammer debate... Here's my opinions.... Straight claws can do a lot more damage to items that they meet on the backstroke... For destruction, I use tools designed for that...wrecking bars, pry bars, flat bars. I don't fall off roofs much, and if I had to work up there, on thin plywood, I'd use a safety line - much more secure than the hammer claw. Perhaps the straight claw came into common use with the rise of the 'development', especially those ones out in CA where the framers specialize, and speed is everything.. I don't think they bother to pull nails, just whack 'em down. I also own a nail puller with a cat's paw claw on one end (good for digging into a flush surface to grab the head, with a minimum - not none, just minimized compared to bit splits, damage) and two opposing straight projections on the other end, sort of like a two-prong pitchfork - spaced to span a 2x dimension. This is a twisting tool, used to bring your modern pretzel lumber back into line before you nail it in. I've recently seen an ad for a straight claw hammer that below the claw, on the steel shaft, incorporates a protruding triangle, spaced to perform the same function as above....but then again, you then need ANOTHER hammer to nail, right? Of course, the modern framer uses the hammer only to persuade, lift, twist, etc. while the air-powered demon actually drives the nails. Me, I still want one of those nice old hammers that hold the nail along the top for use in starting the nails way up high. I just saw the patron saint of air-powered demons make a work stand for another demon....used 2x4s for the base that were straight grain, not a knot in sight, clear, straight....had to be some of that old-growth redwood stuff from CA they keep arguing about. He then covered it with plywood, of course. I also recall reading an article about the original 'kit' Sears homes that came precut on a railroad car....the ads claimed they'd give you a dime for any knot you could find that size....and the writer crawled under a PORCH on one existing model, and couldn't find any knots even that size on the framing lumber used there....how I wish I could find lumber like that! These days, I pick through the stacks (at a GOOD yard) and select only what I call 'straight', relatively speaking, and consider myself lucky to find 24 of what I need....I get it home, clamp 'em up in 12-wide stacks, with pipe clamps, until just before nailing, and even then I still have to cull out 25% or more when actually making walls and things that like to be flat.... Recall my previous offer of free Osage Orange in Fort Worth? Two worthies took me up on the offer, and each absconded with about half a dozen logs up to 18" diameter, 2' or so long. They kindly moved a similar amount to my F-I-L's house nearby, and my wife tells me there are crotch sections there....all this was barely movable from what I'm told, and the BIG stuff had to be left behind. Now, anyone know of a bandmill owner down there, or anyone planning on driving a large truck from Texas to Massachusetts anytime soon? My wife declined to just tie a luggage tag to one and check it, since any single chunk was too heavy... Dave T. in MA, owner of walnut drying in western MA and osage drying in Texas, and NON-owner of a truck... ---- Start of Message 58669 (thread 25464) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-03-01 02:23:00 Subject: Re: The great Hammer debate... Here's my guess. Since any tool company that caters to pros alone either has to charge a pile for each item, or goes under quick. So, you got to figure most mass produced hammers, and especially 30's,40's and 50's when do it yourself was undisputed king, went to the homeowner and weekend handyman. The curved claw takes care of bent-on-the-way-in nails better for the beginner because you can just brainlessly grab hold and reel on the offending spike. A straight claw treated in this callous manner would snap the handle right at the eye. Whadda ya think? yours, Scott ++++ End of thread 25464 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25465 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58668 (thread 25465) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-03-01 02:15:00 Subject: Finishing Hard Maple? GG's I have just started two new projects in the shop (a kitchen island and re-facing a built in gun cabinet). Both of these two projects are being done for friends of mine and are being constructed out of hard maple. This will be my first time ever using maple in a project - most of the stuff I have made for myself has either been made of oak, cherry or old growth heart pine. My question has to do with finishing the maple. Both of my friends (clients) have existing maple pieces in their homes, maple kitchen cabinets for the kitchen island and maple tables for the gun case. Both of my clients are wanting me to at least come close to matching their existing pieces with the finish. Now, I have done considerable reading on finishing maple over the past few days and have pretty much decided to go with an aniline dye to color the wood (never actually done it before). The question I have is what color to buy. Lucky for me, both of the clients want pretty much the same color. The best way I can describe it is a dark brown color with a hint of red to it - almost a dark cherry color but still translucent with the maple grain and character showing through (this seems to be a pretty popular color in store bought furniture these days). I was planning on buying Moser's aniline dye from Woodworkers supply unless any of you galoots can give me good reason to go with something else. The problem I have is that the color descriptions in the catalog don't really mean anything to me. Does anybody out there have any idea which color I am probably looking for or even better some reference that I can get to show the different colors on real wood. From the list, I am leaning toward the "Cherry Amber Maple" but have no idea what the "Pilgrim Maple" or "Russet Amber Maple" might look like. I think I can rule out the rest of the list. I guess I could buy some of each and try them out but I am really too cheap to want to do that. So, any galoots with experience in this area, please drop me a line with your suggestions. Also, if you have any tips for the whole dying process, I would like to hear them as well. I have read up on the process in several books and even the article in FWW this month but just don't know about the colors. Thanks is advance, Keith Rucker Tifton, GA BTW, Oldtools content - I have been using several old tools in the construction of these projects, too many to list so just trust me. ---- Start of Message 58670 (thread 25465) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-03-01 02:34:00 Subject: Re: Finishing Hard Maple? I have been dyeing curly maple. I get a brown with a hint of red by mixing "dark brown" with "reddish dark brown" about 1 to 3. It is quite tricky if the maple is figured. The problem is that maple is very tight grained so normal grain absorbs very little dye. However, the "curly stripes" are something a bit closer to an end grain and take the dye very readily. Thus it is pretty easy to have way too brash a contrast. My best luck has been to first give the maple a coat of linseed/beeswax thinned down with turpentine. I wipe that and let it partially dry, then use coat with the dye in it. I dissolve the dye with acetone, and then the acetone into my linseed/oil/tungoil/beeswax finsih mix. That works pretty well,a nd the dye is actually absorbed into the wood through the first coat. "Keith S. Rucker" wrote: > GG's > > I have just started two new projects in the shop (a kitchen island and > re-facing a built in gun cabinet). Both of these two projects are being > done for friends of mine and are being constructed out of hard maple. This > will be my first time ever using maple in a project - most of the stuff I > have made for myself has either been made of oak, cherry or old growth heart > pine. My question has to do with finishing the maple. Both of my friends > (clients) have existing maple pieces in their homes, maple kitchen cabinets > for the kitchen island and maple tables for the gun case. Both of my > clients are wanting me to at least come close to matching their existing > pieces with the finish. > > Now, I have done considerable reading on finishing maple over the past few > days and have pretty much decided to go with an aniline dye to color the > wood (never actually done it before). The question I have is what color to > buy. Lucky for me, both of the clients want pretty much the same color. > The best way I can describe it is a dark brown color with a hint of red to > it - almost a dark cherry color but still translucent with the maple grain > and character showing through (this seems to be a pretty popular color in > store bought furniture these days). > > I was planning on buying Moser's aniline dye from Woodworkers supply unless > any of you galoots can give me good reason to go with something else. The > problem I have is that the color descriptions in the catalog don't really > mean anything to me. Does anybody out there have any idea which color I am > probably looking for or even better some reference that I can get to show > the different colors on real wood. From the list, I am leaning toward the > "Cherry Amber Maple" but have no idea what the "Pilgrim Maple" or "Russet > Amber Maple" might look like. I think I can rule out the rest of the list. > I guess I could buy some of each and try them out but I am really too cheap > to want to do that. > > So, any galoots with experience in this area, please drop me a line with > your suggestions. Also, if you have any tips for the whole dying process, I > would like to hear them as well. I have read up on the process in several > books and even the article in FWW this month but just don't know about the > colors. > > Thanks is advance, > > Keith Rucker > Tifton, GA > > BTW, Oldtools content - I have been using several old tools in the > construction of these projects, too many to list so just trust me. > > -- ---- Start of Message 58672 (thread 25465) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-03-01 02:50:00 Subject: Re: Finishing Hard Maple? "John H. Lederer" wrote: > I have been dyeing curly maple. I get a brown with a hint of red by mixing "dark brown" with "reddish dark brown" about 1 to 3. Whoops! Reverse those mixtures. 3 parts "medium dark brown" to 1 part "reddish brown" The aniline dyes are so expensive, I tend just to buy the darker colors and thin them to be lighter. ---- Start of Message 58700 (thread 25465) ---- From: Steve_Bussell@i... Date: 1999-03-01 11:22:00 Subject: Re: Finishing Hard Maple? Keith, I believe one of the recent FWW had a nice article on finishing maple to enhance the figure. It was either the Feb. 99 of the April '99 issue. Steve Bussell ---- Start of Message 58745 (thread 25465) ---- From: Paul Aud Date: 1999-03-01 20:49:00 Subject: Re: Finishing Hard Maple? At 01:11 PM 3/1/99 +0000, Steve_Bussell@i... wrote: >Keith, I believe one of the recent FWW had a nice article on >finishing maple to enhance the figure. It was either the Feb. 99 >of the April '99 issue. That would be the April '99 issue. ++++ End of thread 25465 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25466 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58673 (thread 25466) ---- From: Paul Aud Date: 1999-03-01 02:57:00 Subject: plane storage Dear Galooteri, It would appear that I progress fairly well down the slope as I've acquired 4 more planes just this last week! This brings me up to 5 full metal planes and two woodies. I have a Stanley #4 and a #4c a #5, #7 (dang that is a LONG plane), a no name block plane, and the two woodies. My question is How do I properly store them? Right now I've got all but the #7 in one of those little aluminum tool cases with some foam separating them. This SEEMS to do alright. The case has foam on the bottom and top and sides, so I'm not worried about them getting damaged, but I should I be? Also, I've just got the blades in there, at whatever setting they happened to be after I cleaned them up (well, at least partly). Should I retract all the blades? Take all the blades off and store them separate from the planes, or at least not assembled in the plane? Do I need to get some silica gel to retard rust? Should I just get some paste wax or mineral oil to coat them with? Also, I was looking at some galootish sights and saw that steel wool is acceptable for cleaning oldtools, but sandpaper isn't. Why is this? They are both abrasives, right? So why the distinction? later, Oddball ++++ End of thread 25466 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25467 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58676 (thread 25467) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-01 04:09:00 Subject: Stellar10 Galoots, If you had to pick the ten best people who have furthered the cause of the hand plane who would you come up with, and for what? For example Mike Dunbar and Garrett Hack for books, Kingshott for his videos, Ron Hock and his irons, Paddy and OldTools, etc? Rick Garza ---- Start of Message 58685 (thread 25467) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 1999-03-01 04:53:00 Subject: Re: Stellar10 On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:09:56 -0600, Rick Garza wrote: >Galoots, > >If you had to pick the ten best people who have furthered the cause of >the hand plane who would you come up with, and for what? For example >Mike Dunbar and Garrett Hack for books, Kingshott for his videos, Ron >Hock and his irons, Paddy and OldTools, etc? Patrick Leach and his Blood and Gore. Bar none. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA avogadro@b... (also avogadro@w...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 58687 (thread 25467) ---- From: "William H. Fissell" Date: 1999-03-01 03:33:00 Subject: Re: Stellar10 Galoots, Michael Sullivan answered the question > >If you had to pick the ten best people? > > Patrick Leach and his Blood and Gore. Bar none. I gotta agree. But not just for B&G. For also being MofA and putting up with my BS questions... :-) Bill Fissell Galoot in doctor's clothing ---- Start of Message 58690 (thread 25467) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-03-01 07:09:00 Subject: Re: Stellar10 -----Original Message----- From: Rick Garza Date: Monday, 1 March 1999 12:44 Subject: Stellar10 >If you had to pick the ten best people who have furthered the cause of >the hand plane who would you come up with, and for what? For example >Mike Dunbar and Garrett Hack for books, Kingshott for his videos, Ron >Hock and his irons, Paddy and OldTools, etc? > In no particular order: Tom Lie-Nielsen (need I say more) Mike Dunbar (need I say more) Garrett Hack (everyone knows his book) James Krenov (Obi-Wan won me a long time ago) Jim Kingshott (UK) (I wish I knew metal-working...) Ron Hock (need I say more) Paddy and his site (and Stanley doesn't like it? Hello?????) John Brown (UK) (a true Neander/galoot) Terry Gordon (Aus) (makes arguably the best wood smoother) equal Jeff Warshafsky/Phil Ashby(Aus) and so many other boutique makers. Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ---- Start of Message 58757 (thread 25467) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-03-01 22:52:00 Subject: Re: Stellar10 On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:09:56 -0600, Rick Garza wrote: >Galoots, > >If you had to pick the ten best people who have furthered the cause of >the hand plane who would you come up with, and for what? For example >Mike Dunbar and Garrett Hack for books, Kingshott for his videos, Ron >Hock and his irons, Paddy and OldTools, etc? From a collectors viewpoint. ROGER SMITH!!! Without his seminal work in many, many publications and on the two volume Patented Transitional and Metallic Planes in America books, we'd know almost NOTHING!!!! As differentiated from others, Roger produced original, new and unique research! If you are into woodie type, Emil Pollack! He cataloged and categorize d woodie makers. Karl ---- Start of Message 58761 (thread 25467) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-02 00:40:00 Subject: Re: Stellar10 > From a collectors viewpoint. ROGER SMITH!!! Without his seminal work in >many, many publications and on the two volume Patented Transitional and >Metallic Planes in America books, we'd know almost NOTHING!!!! As >differentiated from others, Roger produced original, new and unique research! > If you are into woodie type, Emil Pollack! He cataloged and categorized >woodie makers. Ditto on Roger Smith. My Stanley Tools bible is dogeared, noted, and falling apart. The type studies alone are worth the price of admission. Its nice to see that someone recognizes what has to be decades of personal devotion. I've never been lucky enough to browse the 2 vol set or Pollacks work. But I do have John Whelan's Making Traditional Wooden Planes and its packed with clear and easy to read instructions on many types. I have some special wood drying for some Hollows & rounds I'll probably make myself. I despair at ever being able to put a complete set together, even a broken one at that. I love the power and versatility a simple pair can give you. I do remember the tingle the first time I looked up a wooden makers mark and found it catalogued in the 1830's. Instantly the simple wooden tool in my hands took on an almost supernatural glow. Can you imagine the story behind this plane? Rick ---- Start of Message 58762 (thread 25467) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-02 00:48:00 Subject: Re: Stellar10 > >Ditto on Roger Smith. Another one is John Walters. >My Stanley Tools bible is dogeared, noted, and >falling apart. The type studies alone are worth the price of Sorry, Rick Garza ---- Start of Message 58773 (thread 25467) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-03-02 02:06:00 Subject: Re: Stellar10 I know it's an old song, but I have to mention Clyde Lammey, Tom Cahill (aka: Manly Bannister), Harry Wicks, Rosario Capitosto..... These were the shop editors of Popular Mechanics and Mechanix Illustrated during the "dark ages". The bad times inbetween Victorian architecture and Fine Woodworking. Their job was, of course, to promote and sell every new power tool offered to the masses, but each one of them went out of their way to keep the tiny handtools flame alive in a very windy world. Without their persistant influence most everything we hold dear would have likely gone to the landfill. yours Scott * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, 63742 Applegate Dr., Happy Camp, CA 96039 * scottg@s... PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/ ---- Start of Message 58781 (thread 25467) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-02 04:36:00 Subject: Re: Stellar10 > I know it's an old song, but I have to mention Clyde Lammey, Tom Cahill (aka: Manly >Bannister), Harry Wicks, Rosario Capitosto..... > These were the shop editors of Popular Mechanics and Mechanix Illustrated during >the "dark ages". The bad times inbetween Victorian architecture and Fine Woodworking. Bravo! Would have never thought of these guys, but they deserve mention. Rick Garza ++++ End of thread 25467 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25468 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58680 (thread 25468) ---- From: ecoyle@c... (eric coyle) Date: 1999-03-01 04:25:00 Subject: one thing leads to another..... Today making the rounds of the flea market, I spied a lonely woodie sitting in a pile of rusty 4's and 5's, and determined that it was in probably good enuf shape to ressurect. As it was reasonably priced, I found myself re-setting the boxing and sharpening the cutter, and of course trying it. The blade is gonna need some serious honing to get a keen edge on it, so I figured I'd cut a chunk of moulding and then sprinkle it with grit and use that as a hone- kinda like I saw Leonard Lee do with carving gouges. But leaving that path and getting back to the point--- In the process of adjusting the woodie, I reached for a cobblers hammer, and the first one that came to hand was a Geo Barnsley #2 (sheffield) complete with it's user made kludge-dowel handle. In the process of adjusting, the head loosened, so it was obviously time for a new handle. Which I did after the plane was done. But I get to wondering about this little hammer. I guess some would call it a "french pattern", but the striking face is Not parallel to the handle, but rather tilted back, in much the same angle as one would find the working edge of a coopers adze or a file-makers hammer. Back so much that if you put the face of the hammer flat on the table, the handle tilts down a good 35 or 40 degrees. Does some of the leatherheads out there know of a specialized cobbler-purpose for such a hammer, or is it just a variant in design. Cowtown Eric ---- Start of Message 58695 (thread 25468) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-03-01 08:26:00 Subject: Re: one thing leads to another..... > > Today making the rounds of the flea market, I spied a lonely woodie sitting > in a pile of rusty 4's and 5's, A pile of 4's & 5's ???!!! > The blade is gonna need some serious honing to get a keen edge on it, so I > figured I'd cut a chunk of moulding and then sprinkle it with grit and use > that as a hone- kinda like I saw Leonard Lee do with carving gouges. Not heard that one - thanks! > In the process of adjusting the woodie, I reached for a cobblers hammer, and > the first one that came to hand was a Geo Barnsley #2 (sheffield) (tool info) Barnsley (AFAIK) was a specialist cobblers tool maker. Living as I do near one of the 2 show making centres in the UK, I see a lot of their stuff. BugBear. ++++ End of thread 25468 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25469 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58681 (thread 25469) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-01 03:44:00 Subject: Lazarus Galoots, Hey I'm back after being offline for about 18mos. Some of you may remember me from the x-plane posts about a year&half ago..... .Rick Garza ++++ End of thread 25469 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25470 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58683 (thread 25470) ---- From: John Davis Date: 1999-03-01 03:51:00 Subject: Rare Salesman Sample Davis Level Galoots, Saturday, I'm out stumping with a long time Galoot (he's non-cyber) and we found a Davis level with "missing parts". Next to it was a Disston/Morss level with the wrong plumb vial and cap that without question belonged in the Davis. The wood around the plumb and level vial were cut larger to show the inner workings of the adjustment features. This suggests it is a salesman sample or display sample. Tonight, I had the successful pleasure of performing the first(?) vial transplant on a salesman sample and restored it to it's original condition. If we hadn't been at this auction, the two levels would have parted company and this level would have lost it's place in galootdom. I'd like to hear from anyone with knowledge of salesman samples so we can compare them to this one. BTW, I got to do the transplant, the real Galoot got to keep the level! John Davis, GIT but learning, rsvp at jdd1010@e... ++++ End of thread 25470 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25471 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58684 (thread 25471) ---- From: Walt Lane Date: 1999-02-28 23:59:00 Subject: Interesting Day GG's, I usually only read about the interesting days that many of you have had, and while this one was relatively minor, I enjoyed it. Sandy (SWMBO) and I journeyed to Saratoga Springs, NY, about an hour from home, to attend the ?? Annual Woodworkers Show. As we were nearly finished perusing the many marvelous exhibits, from bowls to boats, toys to tables, etc., etc., we rounded a corner and found Tom Lie-Nielsen set up with tools on display, including prototypes of the several new tools to be offered. My thrill was to be able to wedge myself between the many folks in front of his display and grab his attention for several enjoyable minutes of conversation. (Wish my purse strings were more flexible so I could indulge my desires to own several more of those beautiful tools.) Thanks, Tom, for a great ending to a very nice day. Even found a great-looking #48 (c.1900) that followed me home. Walt ++++ End of thread 25471 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25472 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58686 (thread 25472) ---- From: ecoyle@c... (eric coyle) Date: 1999-03-01 05:06:00 Subject: measuring to the nearest 3mm......? Ken and Doug was lamenting, And in the days before decimal notation became the norm, arithmetic was _easier_ with these units too. *********************** ++++ End of thread 25472 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25473 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58691 (thread 25473) ---- From: "HALL, HAYWARD" Date: 1999-03-01 07:32:00 Subject: Log tong sally Howdy, I've seen a couple of examples of what looks like large ice tongs used to carry logs/lumber (Roy shows one attached to a lumber cart in one of his books). What is the subtle difference between large 'ice tongs' and 'log tongs'? Is there a difference at all? Whats the proper term? I'd hate to get them unknowingly mixed up and have some galoot see me and laugh me off the porch for using the wrong tool for the job :). Thanks Hayward Hall Springfield MO ++++ End of thread 25473 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25474 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58692 (thread 25474) ---- From: OldTools@a... Date: 1999-03-01 07:45:00 Subject: Re: Fine Tool Journal March Stanley Tool Sale Fine Tool Journal March Stanley Tool Sale All tools guaranteed as listed and for sale on the first day of the sale. e mail or phone ordersn fine. Shipping at cost, averages about $6.50 per package. e mail: CEB@F... Phone Toll Free: 1 800 248-8114 Closed Monday, March 1, 1999 day after auction. 1. STANLEY NO. 1 bench plane. Sweet Hart ear. c.1925. Japanning 97%. Tote has trace of the decal but does have a crack that runs around the base. A nice example. Good+ $1495.00 2. STANLEY NO. 2 bench plane. c.first quarter of the 19th century. Plane dates to about 1900 but body and frog date closer to 1925. Wood fine. Japanning 90%. A mixed parts plane. Good+ $250.00 3. STANLEY NO. 2 bench plane. c.1915. Wood very nice. Japanning 95%. Sides could stand some cleaning and has a couple scratches on the sides. Good+ $275.00 4. STANLEY NO. 2 bench plane with the orange frog. c.1930. Wood OK. Japanning 90%. Cap plating 97% and bright. Orange frog paint 55%. A few paint spots, not orange, and the plane needs a good cleaning. Good $350.00 5. STANLEY UNBREAKABLE ALUMINUM PLANE HANDLES. NO. 3X for 3 size planes (no front screw) New $25.00. NO. 5X for 5 and larger with the front screw. New $25.00. 6. STANLEY NO. G 4 GAGE bench plane. Type 3. Japanning 45% but metal clean with no rust. Wood good. Good $110.00 7. BED ROCK NO. 607 bench plane. Type 3. Wood fine. Japanning about 85%. Plane has been cleaned. Good+ $150.00 8. STANLEY NO. 10 1/4 bench rabbet plane with tilting handles. Japanning 70%. Tote has a very tight base crack otherwise wood OK. A used but not abused tool. Good $625.00 9. STANLEY NO. 18 block plane. Knuckle cap. Good $45.00 10. STANLEY NO. 39 3/8 INCH dado plane. Japanning 90%. Complete and working. Good+ $125.00 11. STANLEY NO. 39 1 INCH dado plane. Early type with PATENT APPLIED FOR cast in handle. Does have two problems, depth stop screw is stripped and I think cutter is a very good replacement. Otherwise plane 100% complete and stop can be set without screw. Japanning 70%. Good $155.00 12. Stanley Plumb Bob with reel. Tip is clean with no pitting. Good+ $145.00 13. STANLEY NO. 51 spoke shave. Japanning 95%. Good+ $17.50 14. STANLEY NO. 57 corebox plane. All parts and good wood but no side extensions. Plating 80%. $155.00 15. STANLEY NO. 60 block plane. First type. S casting. Japanning 75%. Good $175.00 16. STANLEY NO. 60 block plane. Later type with adjustable mouth. Japanning 85%. $70.00 17. STANLEY NO. 61 block plane. c.1920. Japanning 70%. Wood fine. Good+ $175.00 18. STANLEY NO. 65 block plane. Japanning 85%. Mouth fine. A nice user. Good $70.00 19. STANLEY NO. 66 hand beader. Early style with tall fence screw. No finish left and very light pitting. A good user once cleaned up. With a set of replacement cutters. Straight fence. Good. $80.00 20. STANLEY NO. 78 duplex rabbet planes. Without the cutter adjustment. Good. $40.00 21. STANLEY NO. 80M scraper. Blade right type but very short. Fine. $35.00 22. STANLEY NO. 81 scraper with rosewood sole. Blade a Frog Tool Co. replacement. Sole fine. Plating Dull but 90%. Good+ $70.00 23. STANLEY NO. 98 and 99 side rabbet planes. B castings. Wood OK. Plating about 50%. Good $185.00 24. STANLEY NO. 98 and 99 side rabbet planes. A made up set. The 98 original had a depth stop and the side of the cutter has been reworked at a point about a 1/4 inch above the edge. Still usable. Wood OK. Plating about 50%. Good $165.00 25. STANLEY NO. 171 door router plane. Very minor chips off totes but overall wood fine. Japanning 80%. Good+ $475.00 26. STANLEY NO. 203 block plane. Japanning 65%. Wood fine. Good $75.00 27. STANLEY 28 tooth blade for the No. 12 or 112 scrapers. Both ends have been sharpened. Good $85.00 Clarence Blanchard The Fine Tool Journal 27 Fickett Rd Pownal ME. 04069 e mail: CEB@F... Call Us Toll Free: 1 800 248-8114 Closed Monday March 1, 1999, day after the Fine Tool Journal Auction. Web site at: www.FineToolJ.com ++++ End of thread 25474 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25475 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58693 (thread 25475) ---- From: Cougarjack@a... Date: 1999-03-01 08:26:00 Subject: Waxing elephants again...WAS: Log tong sally Hall and all, I'm no expert on ice tongs, having been born well into the the age of refrigeration, but I own several good log tongs, both old ones and newly made ones. The log tongs are more robust, I would guess, as they are made from iron rod of 3/4" to 1" in diameter. The points are ground and honed, much like the point on a fish hook. The closure mechanism is meant to be operated by the pull of a chain attached to the forged eye, and a good tong can easily open to 16". I've seen 24". The geometry of the barb is such that once imbedded in the log, it tends to stay, and not fall out each time the chain is slacked. My oldest ones, unmarked, are obviously of forged iron, as the fibrous structure is easily visible in corroded places. The newest steel ones, marked "Keough #2" near the pivot, weigh about 15 pounds, and when new the points would draw blood. I purchased these in a small general store in Millinocket, Maine, about 30 years ago. BTW, don't ice tongs usually terminate in d-shaped handles rather than a strain loop? I have one older set of tongs that has a unique mechanism...when they are forced shut by the pull, a sort of ratchet arrangement prevents them from being opened until a short heavy anvil on this mechanism is struck a blow with the poll of an ax or a hammer perhaps. The ratchet teeth are more like the grippers in the jaw of a wire puller, rather than well-shaped gear teeth. I'd say they were designed to keep closed when the pull was discontinuous, such as in horse drawn logging. The only marking on these is "Peerless", in small letters on the ratchet mechanism. I'm told there was a tool of old that possibly resembled a twibill, which was used to start the pockets in the end of a log for the tongs. Has anyone seen such a device? I once spotted such a tool being used in a TV special about harvesting teak with elephants. It was but a fleeting glance, but convinced me of the truth of the story. Skidding logs with the use of horses, steam donkeys, or water power was frighteningly dangerous work. Can you possibly image the hazards of working in a woodlot on some remote forest sidehill, and having a set of tongs come blazing through the air at 50 mph, after the winch has tightened and the tongs have slipped? Modern cable chokers slip also, and the big eye splice in the "dead end" of a hoist cable is aptly named. OK, ice tongs guys, your turn! Regards, Nick ---- Start of Message 58742 (thread 25475) ---- From: tkissam@c... (Todd Kissam) Date: 1999-03-01 19:55:00 Subject: Re: Waxing elephants again...WAS: Log tong sally At 03:26 AM 3/1/99 EST, you wrote: >Hall and all, > >I'm no expert on ice tongs, having been born well into the the age of >refrigeration, snip... Not an expert either - but Ice tongs are not going to work - on the pairs that I have seen - the ice was "grabbed" at the top - the geometry of the tongs will not allow them to grab a log. You might be able the change the angle of the points - but, they are not heavy duty - your average log is going to weigh 20 or 50 times more than a block of ice. >BTW, don't ice tongs usually >terminate in d-shaped handles rather than a strain loop? Actually, there are Ice tongs that are very simular to log tongs on appearance, just lighter duty and different geometry - may have been used in ice harvesting vs delivery - I know this because I found a pair cheap - got real excited by my $13 log tongs - they even ended in a slip hook. My current pair are huge - bought them off a flea market dealer of decorator accessories - nicely painted siver too! Todd ---- Start of Message 58747 (thread 25475) ---- From: Paul Aud Date: 1999-03-01 21:23:00 Subject: Re: Waxing elephants again...WAS: Log tong sally BTW, don't ice tongs usually >terminate in d-shaped handles rather than a strain loop? If any of you ever watched "Little House on the Prarie" ( I know, just give me a break) very much, you might have seen Mr. Olson (the merchant) use a pair of ice tongs that look like what I would think log tongs look like. Kind of like BIG calipers, maybe with handles on top, maybe something to put a pole through. later, Oddball ---- Start of Message 58748 (thread 25475) ---- From: normanw@t... Date: 1999-03-01 21:23:00 Subject: Re: Waxing elephants again...WAS: Log tong sally Date: (Date Unavailable) A couple of people have already mentioned that high speed steel takes a very high temperature before it starts annealing. The other important piece of information is that the high temperature must be maintained for many hours before it starts to anneal. A couple of weeks ago I decided that I wanted a countersink bit for my brace, that would be suitable for use on metal. So I set out to make my own, using my tried and true method where a threaded sleeve is used to connect the desired bit to the shank of an otherwise trashed augur bit. Unfortunately my newly purchased countersink was too hard to thread, and heating its shaft to cherry red for several minutes had no effect. A couple of Deja News searches in rec.knives revealed that annealing HSS is pretty much a lost cause for all practical purposes, requiring something like 8 hours at 1300 degrees. I ended up silver soldering the bit into the sleeve instead. Oddly enough, a couple of posters on rec.knives had made knives out of HSS power hacksaw blades, and praised the knives' ability to take a keep a fine edge. One of these was given to a butcher, who reported that it would keep an edge many times longer than the knives he was used to. However, I suspect that turning puts considerably more wear on an edge that cutting meat does, and the impact potential likely requires a softer heat treatment as well. Hope this helps, Norm W. ++++ End of thread 25475 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25476 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58696 (thread 25476) ---- From: Tony Blanks Date: 1999-03-01 10:31:00 Subject: Re: Hammer Heads: a Tasmanian view Tom Price , mulling over hammer claw shapes wrote in part, > In 'Tools and How to Use Them', >(Albert Jackson and David Way, 1978) the authors state that the curved >claw hammer is generally the most widely used while the straight claw >hammer is effective for levering boards together by jamming the claw >between the boards and levering with the handle. (Snip) >Did the framing hammer rise in importance as the quality of lumber >declined such that a hammer that could also be used to lever warped >boards became more valuable? (Delete comment ondo-it-yourselfers) Well, I have two of my grandfather's hammers, and both have curved claws. One is a full 90 degree bend, the other closer to 45 degrees. He built houses as a housebuilder and bridges for the Tasmanian Dept of Public Works, first as a chippie and later as a foreman. According to my father he was famous for straightening reclaimed and bent nails (a 30's depression habit), and he "knew how to make a penny do a pound's work". (US translation who knows, but he knew how to get a dollar's work out of a cent). He also taught my father a trick my father taught me: when laying floorboards, lay the boards reasonably tight, drive 2 or 3 picks hard into the 8 x10 floor joists along the run of the flooring then close up the floorboards with folding wedges, driven between the head of the pick and the last board. I guess a pick is more authoritative than a straight claw hammer. All I can say is that my Grandfather laid the floor in the house I live in now, and there are none of the grip marks on the floor joists that are left by what I know as "floor dogs", lever floor cramps. My Dad and my Grandfather built my Dad's house and there are dog bites on the joists over there. From that I deduce that my Dad's aim with a pick wasn't as good as my Grandfather's. Me? I know my limitations and could afford to buy a 2nd hand set of floor dogs, since most floors here now, except for yuppie renovations are done in tongued chipboard. Serious 3" hardwood board floors and floor dogs are for Neanderthals. Oh, straight hammer claws? They are "a Yank idea, no use here". (I quote my Dad). I think "Yank" was a very broad generalisation, not restricted to those north of Mason-Dixon. straight claw hammers are widely available in the hardware and home improvement centres here now which suggests that Tom's comment : "do-it-yourselfers are going to these major home centers and buying the straight claw hammers for use around the house when they might be better off with a curved claw type" applies to Australia as well. Then again, you can always sell a few more of something by making it look a little different. Look at the Stanley line if you doubt that. OT content? Well what is more OT than standing 25' up in the air swinging a pick and aiming for a 2" wide hardwood target 4" in front of your toes? I leave you with that mental image :-) Almost makes adzing seem attractive! Regards Tony B Hobart, Tasmania Still (desperately) seeking dowelling auger bits ++++ End of thread 25476 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25477 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58697 (thread 25477) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-01 11:22:00 Subject: FS: PlaneDream Announcing the only known cure for Norris lust outside of truly owning one. I am pleased to present a series of performance upgrade products for the Stanley #4's and 5's. Ever wonder if Stanley had truly tried to compete with the high end English smoothers instead of the lines we are so familiar? Or say Justin Traut had not bothered with the 45's and instead worked with Bedrocks? Or even Bailey himself had lived another 20 yrs? Stanley planes were never copycat designs, but prided themselves on providing true innovation and manufactured quality. They would not have abandoned the look and feel of their flagship Bailey planes, but tried to improve it to reach a new level of performance. The Bedrocks are a perfect example of this type. Its basically the same plane with an improved frog. No one will dispute that its not a better plane. Don't fix what's not broke, just improve where you can. Just look at the many minor changes with totes, knobs, lever caps, etc. Always looking for perfection. The basic designs were constantly being "tweaked". So I wondered what might have been if the early powers that be decided to switch resources from say making the #55 to go for the brass ring (sorry, adjuster) and after the high end British competition. Now it happens that recently I spent nine months working out of state living in a hotel room with little to do, completely offline. So I started by making up a list of areas needing "fixing": 1) The adjuster. Extremely clever design but everyone I have ever touched is sloppy, lots of play, backlash galore, not very positive. No way this comes even close to the fine adjusters of the British competitors. Not to mention they hold patents. 2) The mouth. Stanley chose to provide a "general" tool more for taking heavier shavings more often than gossamer thin. Not to mention made the sole last longer and less delicate. 3) Chatter. Thin irons may be cheaper to make and easier to hone, but not without creating tearout in difficult woods. British planes used thick irons. 4) Lateral truth. In a perfect world the cutting edge and the back iron need to be aligned to each other and square at all times, even after sharpening. 5) Pitch. Stanley chose 45 deg because it was a compromise. The British offered the more desirable higher pitches. Then I went after each one of these with the understanding that whatever was done to my planes would be non destructive and not change the "feel" of the way it operated, or be able to return them to the original conditions. The more I studied my planes and began to observe the design problems they faced, my respect for the problems they solved grew. These guys were true masters, and most of the design beauty is hidden inside were you have to really dig to understand how clever the solutions. I am now in the process of filing provisional patents and hope to start a company selling these upgrades thru the net and magazines. I have been advised legally to be very careful about how I go about all this, as most of these add-ons can be easily copied and this is a critical time. I am currently tabletop machining 10 or so kits by hand that I am sending out for testimonials and getting bids from small shops for building the parts. My website is going up and will have pics and realvideo I shot of it being made and assembled. They tell me it be ready in a couple weeks, but we'll see. I figured why build only 10? Why not sell something on FMM? Or trade for equal value?So this month I offer the first part of 3 upgrades, the one that "fixes" the adjuster. It comes in 3 flavors: $50.00 [The Apprentice]. Provides zero backlash, positive adjustment and cutter locking without being visible. A few simple parts that "hide" under the lever cap. When you turn your adjustment wheel, you get immediate cutter movement. When you turn your adjustment wheel in the opposite direction, it moves the cutter in that direction AT ONCE. All this with the lever cap on, clamped & set. One piece assembly remains attached to the back iron after first assembled. Also clamps double iron set closer to the cutting edge for less chatter. $100.00 [The Journeyman] All of the above plus a scale which attaches inside your adjuster wheel so you can dial in for repeat precise settings. The scale itself is zeroset adjustable when you have found a "perfect" planing setting. Wheel tension is adjustable for softer or harder adjustment "feel". $200.00 [The Master] All of the above and 32 position detents. You turn the adjuster wheel one "click" and it moves 1/32 of a revolution, or .000625 mil per detent. Also adds precision ball bearing feel. If you've ever turned a micrometer, you know the feel it has. The clicks are not really about dialing in some unbelievable accuracy. You could if you wanted to, but we are working wood -- not metal. They provide something easy to feel and "count" as you get closer and closer to that perfect setting, without having to stop and look at dials and break your attention. So if you think you went a tad too far, you can back up in extremely precise, definite increments, or go forward again. No plane anywhere can top this adjustment. All of the above simply add-on to what you have. No drilling. No glue. No damage. Scary sharp edges are your concern. Strange. Email me you're interested. I email you some legalese that you agree to that all rights other than for personal use belong to me. I then email you a drawing of which model(or all) that your interested in. You decide. Send me a check for 1/2 price and I will add your name first come, first serve. When you get it send me the other half, or the product back and I will refund all except shipping charges. Max delivery 30 days. For those who send full price, you get nickel plating and customizable options that you'll see in the adjuster drawings, not to mention a 20% discount against next FMM frog upgrades which close the mouth to .008", give York pitch, and laminate the cutting edge -- all this without replacing your current frog. You also get a sneak peak at the next series of drawings at delivery. The remaining upgrades free to the Galoot who names my company. Galoots, this has nothing to do with the OldTools list or anyone in particular other than myself. Any offers made for sale, testing, evaluation or use are mine. PlaneDreams all, Rick Garza ---- Start of Message 58770 (thread 25477) ---- From: Richard Danzey Date: 1999-03-02 01:46:00 Subject: Re: FS: PlaneDream Rick; When I first saw your name today, I realized I hadn't seen it for a long time. Perhaps you've spent the time profitably, and you will prosper. I will be watching eagerly for reports from others who can afford to do 'market research' with their own money. Best wishes. Careful scholarly contemplation translated into action is all too rare, and valuable. I've seen evidence, today, of two separate examples where such have come to light. That kind of day is, itself, all too rare! Good luck in your enterprise.... danz Rick Garza wrote: > > Announcing the only known cure for Norris lust outside of truly owning > one. I am pleased to present a series of performance upgrade products > for the Stanley #4's and 5's. Ever wonder if Stanley had truly tried > to compete with the high end English smoothers instead of the lines we > are so familiar? Or say Justin Traut had not bothered with the 45's > and instead worked with Bedrocks? Or even Bailey himself had lived > another 20 yrs? > > > > Stanley planes were never copycat designs, but prided themselves on > providing true innovation and manufactured quality. They would not > have abandoned the look and feel of their flagship Bailey planes, but > tried to improve it to reach a new level of performance. The Bedrocks > are a perfect example of this type. Its basically the same plane with > an improved frog. No one will dispute that its not a better plane. > Don't fix what's not broke, just improve where you can. Just look at > the many minor changes with totes, knobs, lever caps, etc. Always > looking for perfection. The basic designs were constantly being > "tweaked". So I wondered what might have been if the early powers > that be decided to switch resources from say making the #55 to go for > the brass ring (sorry, adjuster) and after the high end British > competition. > > Now it happens that recently I spent nine months working out of state > living in a hotel room with little to do, completely offline. So I > started by making up a list of areas needing "fixing": > > 1) The adjuster. Extremely clever design but everyone I have ever > touched is sloppy, lots of play, backlash galore, not very positive. > No way this comes even close to the fine adjusters of the British > competitors. Not to mention they hold patents. > > 2) The mouth. Stanley chose to provide a "general" tool more for > taking heavier shavings more often than gossamer thin. Not to mention > made the sole last longer and less delicate. > > 3) Chatter. Thin irons may be cheaper to make and easier to hone, but > not without creating tearout in difficult woods. British planes used > thick irons. > > 4) Lateral truth. In a perfect world the cutting edge and the back > iron need to be aligned to each other and square at all times, even > after sharpening. > > 5) Pitch. Stanley chose 45 deg because it was a compromise. The > British offered the more desirable higher pitches. > > Then I went after each one of these with the understanding that > whatever was done to my planes would be non destructive and not change > the "feel" of the way it operated, or be able to return them to the > original conditions. The more I studied my planes and began to observe > the design problems they faced, my respect for the problems they > solved grew. These guys were true masters, and most of the design > beauty is hidden inside were you have to really dig to understand how > clever the solutions. > > I am now in the process of filing provisional patents and hope to > start a company selling these upgrades thru the net and magazines. I > have been advised legally to be very careful about how I go about all > this, as most of these add-ons can be easily copied and this is a > critical time. > > I am currently tabletop machining 10 or so kits by hand that I am > sending out for testimonials and getting bids from small shops for > building the parts. My website is going up and will have pics and > realvideo I shot of it being made and assembled. They tell me it be > ready in a couple weeks, but we'll see. > > > > I figured why build only 10? Why not sell something on FMM? Or trade > for equal value?So this month I offer the first part of 3 upgrades, > the one that "fixes" the adjuster. It comes in 3 flavors: > > $50.00 [The Apprentice]. > > Provides zero backlash, positive adjustment and cutter locking without > being visible. A few simple parts that "hide" under the lever cap. > When you turn your adjustment wheel, you get immediate cutter > movement. When you turn your adjustment wheel in the opposite > direction, it moves the cutter in that direction AT ONCE. All this > with the lever cap on, clamped & set. One piece assembly remains > attached to the back iron after first assembled. Also clamps double > iron set closer to the cutting edge for less chatter. > > $100.00 [The Journeyman] > > All of the above plus a scale which attaches inside your adjuster > wheel so you can dial in for repeat precise settings. The scale itself > is zeroset adjustable when you have found a "perfect" planing setting. > Wheel tension is adjustable for softer or harder adjustment "feel". > > $200.00 [The Master] > > All of the above and 32 position detents. You turn the adjuster wheel > one "click" and it moves 1/32 of a revolution, or .000625 mil per > detent. Also adds precision ball bearing feel. If you've ever turned a > micrometer, you know the feel it has. The clicks are not really about > dialing in some unbelievable accuracy. You could if you wanted to, but > we are working wood -- not metal. They provide something easy to feel > and "count" as you get closer and closer to that perfect setting, > without having to stop and look at dials and break your attention. So > if you think you went a tad too far, you can back up in extremely > precise, definite increments, or go forward again. No plane anywhere > can top this adjustment. > > All of the above simply add-on to what you have. No drilling. No glue. > No damage. Scary sharp edges are your concern. > > > > Strange. Email me you're interested. I email you some legalese that > you agree to that all rights other than for personal use belong to me. > I then email you a drawing of which model(or all) that your interested > in. You decide. Send me a check for 1/2 price and I will add your name > first come, first serve. When you get it send me the other half, or > the product back and I will refund all except shipping charges. Max > delivery 30 days. > > > > For those who send full price, you get nickel plating and customizable > options that you'll see in the adjuster drawings, not to mention a 20% > discount against next FMM frog upgrades which close the mouth to > .008", give York pitch, and laminate the cutting edge -- all this > without replacing your current frog. You also get a sneak peak at the > next series of drawings at delivery. The remaining upgrades free to > the Galoot who names my company. > > > > Galoots, this has nothing to do with the OldTools list or anyone in > particular other than myself. Any offers made for sale, testing, > evaluation or use are mine. > > PlaneDreams all, > > Rick Garza > > -- ++++ End of thread 25477 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25478 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58698 (thread 25478) ---- From: "EFISHER.US.ORACLE.COM" Date: 1999-03-01 11:22:00 Subject: Windsor chairmaker news First: I dropped into Dunbar's shop last week and ran into Kevin Schott (did I spell that right?) who joins all you Windsor Institute graduates, having completed his first Sack Back. As Chairman of the Board of the Chair Maker's Hall of Fame :-), I would like to point out that Friday, March 5, is Mike Dunbar's birthday and I urge you to send him an email congratulating him for making it yet a little further over the hill. (dunbar@n...) I am currently making a 3 legged Windsor table. This is the one pictured in Kassay's or Santore's book as the Jeffries (Jeffires?) table. Evan's 2nd book has similar tables but not this one. I'll let you all know out it turns out. (Yeah, pun intended. :-) ) Lastly, I wanted to alert anyone who was interested. Charles Santore's book The Windsor Style in America, etc., which predates the Evans trilogy (and is much cheaper) but has been updated over the years (latest, 1997) is available over the web at $19.97 (at B&N.com, the other guys want #39.97). So if you want a coffee table book on Windsors but prefer using Andrew Jacksons to Ben Franklins, this might be the book. No connection, yada, yada. ed ++++ End of thread 25478 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25479 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58699 (thread 25479) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-03-01 11:22:00 Subject: prices for Stanley (original) 112 212? I have a friend who makes exquisite wooden jewellry and boxes out of ultra-exotic woods (usually layered up, like inlay banding) He had never heard of 112's & 212's But he uses hand-held scrapers all the time, and a #80 occaisionally. I have (of course!) pointed him at LN products. Just for comparision, can any of the dealers, collectors, or drive-by drooolers on the list shock me with a "ball-park" price for an original in G+ condition? BugBear. ---- Start of Message 58723 (thread 25479) ---- From: Stu Ritter Date: 1999-03-01 18:31:00 Subject: Re: prices for Stanley (original) 112 212? >He had never heard of 112's & 212's > >But he uses hand-held scrapers all the time, >and a #80 occaisionally. I have (of course!) >pointed him at LN products. Just for comparision, >can any of the dealers, collectors, or drive-by >drooolers on the list shock me with a "ball-park" >price for an original in G+ condition? > > BugBear. I have a 112 that Patrick described as "extra spiffy" ( whatever that means) that still has 3/4 of the Stanley decal on the handle and I'm going to put it up next FMM for $225.oo..It's a Sweatheart era with correct blade.. Stu ++++ End of thread 25479 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25480 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58702 (thread 25480) ---- From: "Thomas R. Bruce" Date: 1999-03-01 14:26:00 Subject: Another thought about claws Gang: Tom Holloway asks the right question, I think, when (to grossly paraphrase him while maintaining his scholarly tone) he says "So how come them effin' rip hammers got so popular alla sudden?". Thinking about this, I got to thinking about the reappearance of fencing pliers in scenery shops all over the country in the mid to late 1970's. These tools were never in general use except by those who string large quantities of bob wahr (barbed wire, Jeff, a technological device we Colonials have used to replace hedgerows and long heaps of stone as a method of enclosure). Not coincidentally, a lot of shops were switching to air staples as their principle fastening technology at about the same time. Fencing pliers, it turns out, are real useful in extracting, clipping, and otherwise dealing with air staples. Curved claw hammers are fairly useless in this respect. So, a new theory. Many posts have pointed out in different ways that rip claw hammers are preferable for everything except nail pulling. I surmise that the gain in the relative popularity of rip hammers may have occurred with the decline of nails as fasteners in favor of sheetrock screws, air staplers, and power-driven nails (which get driven so deeply at one stroke that there is no getting them out with a claw hammer). So what we may be seeing here is less any new virtue accruing to rip hammers that a decline in utility on the part of its competitor. Best, Tb. +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+==+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ Thomas R. Bruce trb2@c... Legal Information Institute 607-255-1221 Cornell Law School http://www.law.cornell.edu The fail-safe minimization principle: If you dont know what you are doing, dont do it on a large scale. +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+==+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ ---- Start of Message 58733 (thread 25480) ---- From: williams@i... (Larry Williams) Date: 1999-03-01 18:35:00 Subject: Re: Another thought about claws >From the home of Akbar and Jeff comes: ..... > Many posts have pointed out in different ways that rip >claw hammers are preferable for everything except nail pulling. I surmise >that the gain in the relative popularity of rip hammers may have occurred >with the decline of nails as fasteners in favor of sheetrock screws, air >staplers, and power-driven nails (which get driven so deeply at one stroke >that there is no getting them out with a claw hammer). So what we may be >seeing here is less any new virtue accruing to rip hammers that a decline in >utility on the part of its competitor. Hmmm...I spent a lot of years depending on a straight claw hammer, even before we began using air powered fasteners. I hate to be contrary, but straight claws are better for pulling wire nails. Straight claws are capable of grabbing the shank of a nail and depend far less on the strength of the heads, which have a tendency to pop right off. Rather than pulling straight back, using the face as a fulcrum, you push to the side. Straight claws, used this way, will grab the shank of a nail and the fulcrum is closer to the nail giving more of a mechanical advantage. This does scar the wood and you need a protective block to do this on but nail pulling with a curved claw will usually mar the wood too. I haven't a clue as to why straight claws are "suddenly" more popular but there have been a number of posts about advantages. I just know that my wooden-handled straight-clawed Vaughns are comfortable as old shoes. I've replaced the handles more times than I can count but that was because they absorbed one hell of a lot of cumulative shock and didn't pass it on to me. The orthopedic surgeon who insisted I switch to wooden handled hammers saved me a lot of money and never saw me again. Cold mornings often remind me of the damage fiberglass and steel handles caused and I don't view occasionally replacing handles as a hassle. Instead, it's become a ritual where I honor the almost magical properties of a little chunk of hickory. Larry Williams Clark & Williams http://www.planemaker.com ---- Start of Message 58739 (thread 25480) ---- From: Leon143359@a... Date: 1999-03-01 18:52:00 Subject: Re: Another thought about claws Hi, Another use for the straight claw hammer, I'm told, is nailing barn roofs. If you start to slide just drive it into the "tin" and hang on works much better than curved claws. But who buys them in the city today? Leon The Plantation Woodwright PS - I'm recovering from a failure of modern technology - my artificial (steel) hip broke. To remove it they demolished the top half of my thigh bone and inserted a steel shaft to my knee then wired the pieces of bone around the shaft, so I'm sitting around growing bone. And they tell me I'm lucky! It's been 3 months and I'm starting to walk with just a cane. ---- Start of Message 59195 (thread 25480) ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1999-03-08 22:59:00 Subject: Re: Another thought about claws ** Reply to note from "Thomas R. Bruce" Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:26:48 -0500 > > So, a new theory. Many posts have pointed out in different ways that rip > claw hammers are preferable for everything except nail pulling. I surmise Have you ever had to pull a nail after you have driven it below the surface of the wood? Try that with your pansy curved claw hammer. Just take your rip hammer and drive the claw into the wood next to the head. That sucker will just keep going and latch right onto the head. voila, out pops the nail. Of course I never had to do that but I saw it done. > that the gain in the relative popularity of rip hammers may have occurred > with the decline of nails as fasteners in favor of sheetrock screws, air > staplers, and power-driven nails (which get driven so deeply at one stroke > that there is no getting them out with a claw hammer). So what we may be > seeing here is less any new virtue accruing to rip hammers that a decline in > utility on the part of its competitor. When the crew I worked with all had rip hammers there were no air nailers/staplers. H*ll air had just been invented so that airplanes could fly. ernie fisch ++++ End of thread 25480 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25481 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58703 (thread 25481) ---- From: David Carradine Date: 1999-03-01 16:29:00 Subject: WTB: info and items for texturing and MF parts GG's With all this talk about how to make things smooth, I thought I would mention a little finishing style that I have been playing with lately, texture. On turnings or smaller utensils that I make it really adds a neat accent to have an area that is textured in some way, dimples, swirls, or whatever. Obviously this could fall in the realm of low relief carving, but my favorite textures are made with my number and letter stamps (MF by the way) I also have a nail set that leaves a neat mark in wood also. I like the textures for form (like carving) and for function (like a grip on a handle). But you're asking, "who cares about your personal finishing quirks?" Well, if anyone has any suggestions for neat and interesting ways to texture wood, I would like to hear them. I am mostly interesting in Galootish types methods like stamping or embossing. I am also using this to throw out a WTB for anybody who has any neat stamps or metal trinkets that I could use to texture wood and that they would be willing to part with. In addition, I am looking for the following goodies: 1) I need a depth stop and fence for a Millers Falls 85, which is just like a Stanley 78. I assume I can buy these new from Stanley, but I thought I better check the list first. I would certainly consider any old replacements, Stanley or otherwise before resorting to the new stuff. 2) Anybody got a spare depth adjusting knob thingie for a Millers Falls 56B, low angle block plane? It is just a threaded rod with a big knob to turn. Mine works but it has been welded together. 3) A lowly nut/screw for a backsaw that has a handle that is 7/8" thick. It's not that old, but again I would rather have an old nut than a new nut. 4) Millers Falls #9, type 3 with rosewood/cocobolo knob and tote If anyone knows of any suppliers of these items I would appreciate that also. Thanks. Dave "Grasshopper" Carradine Blacksburg, VA ++++ End of thread 25481 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25482 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58708 (thread 25482) ---- From: "Rodgers Charles" Date: 1999-03-01 15:13:00 Subject: Re: Fun with Fuming Tom Holloway wrote: > I'm amazed too, that Tim's saw frame responded so well even after >having linseed oil treatment. Maybe no finish at all makes the >difference between 4 days and a day and a half. This is also additional evidence that linseed oil finishes are not very good at sealing the surface. Charlie Rodgers Clinton, Maryland ++++ End of thread 25482 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25483 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58709 (thread 25483) ---- From: Aaron R Ionta Date: 1999-03-01 15:30:00 Subject: Patented Saw Sets and Mortise Gagues Hello GG's Went to an Antique Show on Sunday, not much to speak of the usual $50.oo Fultons and Greatecks, a pair of 71 routah planes for $100.00 each you know the drill, if it is a rusty tool it must be expensive! However! I did run across 2 most peculiar Saw Sets, and a patented Moritce gague that resembles the Stanley one with the pizza wheel cutters, Saw Sets First, the first in was an Atkins, at first I did not know what it was, and for sure did not think it was a sawset, where was Nathan when I needed him. this Atkins set was marked in several places, th emarkings, not complete, include Pribnow EC Atkins with patent dates 11/17/1891 9/17/1918 this one was a large chunky machined steel afair with a plethera of knobs, and moving parts, forget ASCII Art I couldn't even figure out how te thing worked, The other set was just as complicated ( it is quite possible that these were not saw sets or that they were for commercial use ??? ) and also had several markings DJ Crowell No 1 Feb 6 1900 also very complicated. Both were found with a lotof other WW tools. And now for the Mortice Gague it is all Metal two round arms with rules on them, and round pizza wheel cutters, chrome or Nice plated, the head was 8 sided and in very good condition the arms had some rust the markings Said ?Leavine Mach Co Sole MFR's Pat jun 12 1888 Other Pats appl'd for the name Leav??? i interpolated the last few letters so I could be wrong but it seemd to fit. That's it! if anyone is interested in either Item I can put you in touch with the owner any info would be appreciated too Aaron taak ---- Start of Message 58711 (thread 25483) ---- From: ralph.brendler@a... (Ralph Brendler) Date: 1999-03-01 15:47:00 Subject: Re: Patented Saw Sets and Mortise Gagues Aaron Ionta writes: >And now for the Mortice Gague >it is all Metal two round arms with rules on them, and round pizza wheel >cutters, >chrome or Nice plated, the head was 8 sided and in very good condition >the arms had some rust > >the markings Said ?Leavine Mach Co >Sole MFR's > >Pat jun 12 1888 >Other Pats appl'd for > >the name Leav??? i interpolated the last few letters so I could be wrong This is the Bartlett's (or is it Barett's? I can never remember...) patent gage, made by Leavitt Manufacturing Corporation. These were the forerunners of the Stanley and Goodell-Pratt pizza wheelers. These are fairly common pieces, and make excellent users-- the larger head makes them much more stable in the hand than the Stanley #98. One thing to watch for with these is that the arms actually lock tightly. Some models of these use a clever single-screw mechanism to lock both arms, which is often worn to the point that it no longer puts good pressure on the arms. Gages with this problem are basically worthless as users. ralph ---- Start of Message 58826 (thread 25483) ---- From: "Mike DeLong" Date: 1999-03-02 22:10:00 Subject: RE: Patented Saw Sets and Mortise Gagues Ralph and other gage knowledgeable Galoots, I'd like to carry this thread a little further please. Earlier in the year I bought a similar all-metal gage from Stan "Did I Mention I Have A 358 Miterbox" Faullin. Unlike Aaron's, mine does not have any markings, nor plating, but it does have a rather large head. The head appears to have been turned with one end, the marking face, left in a hex-shaped. Like the Stanley #98 it has two rods, but one is smaller in diameter and shorter in length. The short rod is a little less than 5/16d by 3-1/4 long and the large rod is a little less that 3/8d by 8-1/8 long. Both rods have pizza wheel cutters held on with flat-head machine screws. Like the Stanley #98, the shorter rod can be set to hide the cutter within an indention in the head marking face. The larger rod has inch marking on it. The shorter rod appears plain. Both rods are locked with their own knurled and slotted screw. I have a weakness for Stanley #97 & #98 gages so I have several staring at me from the shelf above my workbench, but this unknown jewel seems to be reached for the most often because of the big head and extraordinarily smooth movement of the head. With that out of the way....is mine one of these "Bartletts/Baretts" or is it something else? Mike ------------------------------ Mike DeLong Southern Methodist University Director of Investment Systems > Aaron Ionta writes: > > >And now for the Mortice Gague > >it is all Metal two round arms with rules on them, > >and round pizza wheel cutters, chrome or Nice plated, > >the head was 8 sided and in very good condition > >the arms had some rust the markings Said > >?Leavine Mach Co > >Sole MFR's > > > >Pat jun 12 1888 > >Other Pats appl'd for > > > >the name Leav??? i interpolated the last few letters > >so I could be wrong Ralph Brendler reponded: > > This is the Bartlett's (or is it Barett's? I can never > remember...) patent gage, made by Leavitt Manufacturing > Corporation. These were the forerunners of the Stanley > and Goodell-Pratt pizza wheelers. These are fairly common > pieces, and make excellent users-- the larger head makes > them much more stable in the hand than the Stanley #98. > > > One thing to watch for with these is that the arms > actually lock tightly. Some models of these use a clever > single-screw mechanism to lock both arms, which is often > worn to the point that it no longer puts good pressure on > the arms. Gages with this problem are basically worthless > as users. > > ralph ++++ End of thread 25483 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25484 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58710 (thread 25484) ---- From: Tad Date: 1999-03-01 15:44:00 Subject: Weekend pillage. Central Iowa, while not exactly old tool hell, is not exactly a hotbed of old tool activity either. That's why when there was an antique show scheduled at one of the local Des Moines malls, I decided to duck the crowds and work on my bathroom remodel project instead... Well, as fate would have it, I ended up needing to run down to Des Moines to get some grout. Since the mall is just a hop-skip-and-jump away, my wife and I decided to see if any of the (heavily advertised) furniture was still sitting about. Keep in mind that we are just arriving at 4:30ish on Sunday afternoon, the "antiques extravaganza" having started Friday morning at 8am. I'm not thinking that any tools are there, but I've managed to aquire this habit of scanning for rust. You all know the drill. Eyes instinctively wander to floor level, parsing through the mounds of... err... junk. Back and forth. Actually, that's why I almost missed it. Here I am, standing in one of those huge "courtyard" areas and I spot a smallish looking metal plane sitting _in plain sight from at least 25 yards away_. Hmm. Gotta be overpriced, but I'll check it out anyway.... Hmm, that logo on the lever cap shure takes up a lot of room, wonder what... No way... Big, square Stanley R&L logo. The word "Bedrock" seems to jump out. Quick glance at the toe, "604". Slowly, I turn the plane over and run my fingers along the corrugations. Unbelievable. I've never seen one of these in the wild... Trembling hands work the lever and pop the cap and underneath find a proper era blade. Little short for my taste, but I can always get a Hock... Okay, deep breath. Quick look around. Good, nobody's noticed my excitement. Notice a small chip off the rear tote horn, but it's old and not too bad. Quick flip of the price tag, brace for disappointment... Let's just say, it was less than what "Handy Andy" block planes go for around here ;) Whoohoo! I'd like to tell you about how I haggled the guy down to single digits on price, but he was dead set on getting full sticker (BWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA). Oh well. ;) Okay, Central Iowa Galoots. Where were you all weekend? I gave you guys over 48 hours and you still couldn't find a 604C _in plain sight and practically free?_ Oh, the shame... NEENER! NEENER! NEENER! [squeeling rubber, clouds of smoke, peals of laughter] Tad Anhalt Des Moines, Ia. "Round sided type 3 AFAICT. YB enough for ya?" ++++ End of thread 25484 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25485 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58712 (thread 25485) ---- From: "John L. Odom" Date: 1999-03-01 16:13:00 Subject: Busy I have a Japanese teacher with me for three weeks, so I'll not have time to read the list. He is very knowledgeable of Japanese antique tools. I'm going off list a couple of weeks. John Odom, Ooltewah, (Chattanooga) TN ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ++++ End of thread 25485 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25486 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58713 (thread 25486) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-03-01 16:26:00 Subject: Information on Miller's Falls #1 spokeshave sharpening I think I recall a web site with info on sharpening and use of a MF #1 spokeshave. I can't seem to find it though. Does anyone have a URL? Thanks. ---- Start of Message 58715 (thread 25486) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-03-01 16:37:00 Subject: Re: Information on Miller's Falls #1 spokeshave sharpening >I think I recall a web site with info on sharpening and use of a MF #1 >spokeshave. I can't seem to find it though. Does anyone have a URL? I scanned the sheet that came w/ my KTW cigar shave.. theya re at: http://people.ne.mediaone.net/spokeshave/images/C_ShaveSM.gif Ralph Brendler's site has a thread archive on the subject as well, I think? ---- Start of Message 58716 (thread 25486) ---- From: ralph.brendler@a... (Ralph Brendler) Date: 1999-03-01 16:41:00 Subject: Re: Information on Miller's Falls #1 spokeshave sharpening >I think I recall a web site with info on sharpening and use of a MF #1 spokeshave. I can't seem to find it though. Does anyone have a URL? Hmm-- I seem to remember that site... ;-) http://www.mcs.net/~brendler/oldtools/cigar.htm ralph ++++ End of thread 25486 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25487 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58717 (thread 25487) ---- From: Brian J Wilson Date: 1999-03-01 16:55:00 Subject: Mutant 4 1/2 ID? Hello GG's This past weekend I picked up a 4 1/2 plane that I belive is of mixed parentage and I was hoping that you all might help me identify the father/mother. The frog is Stanley 'cause it says so on the lateral adjustment lever and it has the nib cast into its underside. I can't make out any patent dates on the adjustment lever though. The body has an S cast into it behind the frog and at the toe in front of the knob it says "No" on the left side and "4 1/2" on the right side. I'm assuming that this was also made by Stanley. The front knob is low with a bead cast into it at the base and there isn't a raised ring in the bed. Now for the weird stuff. The screw for the front knob is unlike any I've seen on a Stanley. The brass part is like a split screw on an older saw handle and you can see the threaded post coming up through the center. The blade is from Union mfg. New Britain, Conn. and the lever cap is japanned on both sides. Where the lever cap meets the chip breaker and cutting edge it has a wave cast into it that is not japanned and looks like this (Warning bad ASCII art). _ ^ _ / / / I'm guessing that the blade, lever cap and front knob screw are all Union parts. I have not seen any union planes to know if that correct. IA ---- Start of Message 58759 (thread 25487) ---- From: Jim Cook Date: 1999-03-01 23:14:00 Subject: RE: Mutant 4 1/2 ID? Brian J Wilson asks This past weekend I picked up a 4 1/2 plane that I belive is of mixed parentage and I was hoping that you all might help me identify the father/mother. The frog is Stanley 'cause it says so on the lateral adjustment lever and it has the nib cast into its underside. I can't make out any patent dates on the adjustment lever though. The body has an S cast into it behind the frog and at the toe in front of the knob it says "No" on the left side and "4 1/2" on the right side. I'm assuming that this was also made by Stanley. The front knob is low with a bead cast into it at the base and there isn't a raised ring in the bed. Now for the weird stuff. The screw for the front knob is unlike any I've seen on a Stanley. The brass part is like a split screw on an older saw handle and you can see the threaded post coming up through the center. The blade is from Union mfg. New Britain, Conn. and the lever cap is japanned on both sides. Where the lever cap meets the chip breaker and cutting edge it has a wave cast into it that is not japanned and looks like this (Warning bad ASCII art). _ ^ _ / / / I'm guessing that the blade, lever cap and front knob screw are all Union parts. I have not seen any union planes to know if that correct. Brian, I didn't see anyone else field this one, so I'll try to introduce some more errors into the data base... The body sounds like a type 7, the frog a type 6, the front knob screw is also type 6 or older I think. All of those could be original given evidence of Stanley's mix and match nature. The lever cap sounds like it came off a transitional, and could be either Union or Stanley, as Stanley was making Union planes for a while. Hope this helps. Jim (having gotten this info from Walter's type study, and other info from PTAMPIA) ++++ End of thread 25487 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25488 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58718 (thread 25488) ---- From: "David Boreham" Date: 1999-03-01 17:02:00 Subject: When to electrolize ? My in-laws are staying with us at present. As as result I've been permitted to do various things I've not had a chance to get to for months. "Oh, I could show your Dad how to do so and so...". Well, this weekend it was electrolosis. Not quite the Pons and Fleschman expereince, but it did work very well on a rusty WWII vintage #3. (SWMBO's battery charger's positive crocodile clip became my sacrificial anode unfortunately and now looks like a piece of the Titanic). Now, my question: I did a quick inventory of the rusty tools I own, looking for more candidates for zapping. I have a type 9 #5 1/2 which is tuned up and used often, but has more old-growth rust than patina on the sides. What's the thinking here ? Should I leave it alone since it's in original condition and I'm happy to use it as it is. Or should I get the rust off and make it look prettier ? ++++ End of thread 25488 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25489 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58719 (thread 25489) ---- From: williams@i... (Larry Williams) Date: 1999-03-01 17:04:00 Subject: FS: plane making floats Nostalgic Galoots: Feeling the sense of loss of FMM excitement lately I thought I'd offer this. We have a few sets of plane making floats available. Things have gotten a little busy here lately and I'm not sure when we may be able to offer these again. Each float is approximately 13" in over-all length and they are pictured on our web site: http://www.planemaker.com Basic set: One pair including a side (cheek) float and an edge (topping) float. They are made of 3/16" thick tool steel and we've milled about 6" of ten tpi teeth into each float. Over all width is 1" and both have the working section of the blade shaped as a right triangle with the point being at about eight degrees. The edge float has the teeth cut on one edge while the side float has teeth milled into the side. They are hardened and tempered to RC 50/52 so that they can be sharpened with a 6" extra slim or double extra slim taper file. The chamfered beech handles are removable for sharpening. Bed float: Also made of 3/16" thick tool steel and is 1" wide. This large flat float has parallel sides and also has about 6" of ten tpi teeth on one side. The other can be flattened and the tip filed square for use as a bed scraper to locate and level high spots on a bench plane bed. It has the same type of removable beech handle and is also hardened and tempered to RC 50/52. We've found a number of uses for this float outside of plane making. Prices Basic set: $116.50 Bed float: 78.00 Priority mail domestic shipping is $6.00 for each order. Terms: Prices are in US dollars and shipping charges overseas will be at cost. E-mail me to reserve a set...send a check...I'll ship as soon as your check arrives. Larry Williams Clark & Williams http://www.planemaker.com ++++ End of thread 25489 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25490 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58720 (thread 25490) ---- From: Patrick Leach Date: 1999-03-01 17:05:00 Subject: FS: Good Stuff Cheap... If you have questions about what the Stanley numbers are, you can look the planes up on Blood&Gore: http://www.supertool.com/stanleybg/stan0.htm If there is anything in particular that you're after, do ping me as there is a lot of stuff here that isn't on the list; the list just represents a snapshot of the previous month's haul with none of the stuff having appeared on a previous list. For any tool that's priced under $100, if I fail to describe it accurately, or it fails to meet your expectations, the tool is on me. Free. Nada. You pay nothing. Remember, we're on the honor system here, and if I start to see a trend developing where free tools are being delivered to the same household, we'll have to have a talk. Please email me prior to sending money so that you can be sure the tool is still up for grabs. Also, prices do not include shipping, which is the exact amount that it takes to go from me to you. This list goes out to many people on the first Monday of the month. So, if you see something you want, it's the quickest finger on the trigger that wins the duel. Also, due to the nature of selling over the wires, tools are sold on a first come, first serve basis. The first person to say "I'll take it", gets it. I have to operate this way as some will take a few days to get back to me with their interest in a particular item, and it's unfair to keep others waiting who are willing to buy immed- iately. Don't forget the cool new tools that I'm making - a sexy layout knife being used by professionals (made cover of Feb '98 FWW!); a marvel of bevel-ry engineering, the Robinson Patent bevel; and a detachable block plane handle designed to fit your 20 degree block planes. You can see all this at: http://www.supertool.com/newtools.htm And, the tilting plate for the Emmert's patternmaker's vice is shipping. No vise is complete without one, including yours! Finally, remember that you don't have to be a connoisseur (did I spell that correctly?) to shop here. You can be a wirehead, a metalhead, a zipperhead, a propellerhead, a deadhead, a cokehead, or even a knuckle-dragging oaf, just like me, to shop here, as long as your dinero is green. Thanks for shopping... FEATURED TOOL OF THE MONTH ******** **** ** *** ***** FT No tire kicking allowed on this one - this is the real thing - the bench, the tool cabinet, the tools, and some ephemera of an employee of The Steinway piano factory; this was plucked from an heir of the worker, and it's remarkable that something like this could survive intact (and intact it shall remain) in this day of greedy tool merchants breaking up tool chests for profit; the bench, made by Hammacher-Schlemmer, measures nearly 7' long and if fitted with drawers and doors; it has a flat top and is as sound as the day it was delivered to the factory (the inscription below the top has the destination and the fellow's name inked on it); the panelled tool cabinet hangs on the wall and contains the tools of the trade: a #9, a #97, a #140, bench planes, carving chisels, an Erlandsen style ivory bow drill w/ a dozen pads, etc; the tools show use (the #9 has no hot dog and the rear knob - the wood - is replaced, the #97 has a chip on the lever cap, the #8 was reduced in length for the guy's comfort, #140 is missing the side plate screws); there are three papers that come with the lot, where the workers are demanding better wages, and one is Steinway's reply for the guy to pack his stuff and screw; this stuff belonged to a William Szmejkal, who worked there during the first few decades of this century, and who also was the only guy that famed pianist, Jan Ignace Paderewski, would let tune or touch his piano; a once in a lifetime opportunity to own history; turn it into your own personal tool altar complete with votive candles; opportunity knocks, are you gonna let him in or slam the door in his face? check it out: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/bench.jpg http://www.supertool.com/forsale/cabinet1.jpg http://www.supertool.com/forsale/cabinet2.jpg http://www.supertool.com/forsale/cabinet3.jpg http://www.supertool.com/forsale/cabinet4.jpg http://www.supertool.com/forsale/cabinet5.jpg http://www.supertool.com/forsale/cabinet6.jpg http://www.supertool.com/forsale/cabinet7.jpg $7850.00 SATANLEY ******** ST1 #1 smoother, ex-Inner Sanctum collection; this guy has sat atop my TV, and if I didn't have one in the box already, I'd never sell it; it's a very early example, with the J logo on the iron, and the patent info on the cap iron; the knob has a bold bead at the base and the toe a graceful shape where you can actually wrap two fingers around it; the grain of the tote is absolutely stunning - you'd never imagine that rosewood could look like this; the plane saw very little use, having come out of a NH stairbuilder's chest; I dare say you couldn't find a nicer example of this ca. mid 1870's (type 4) plane as it has 99% japanning, finish, and great patina; priced because I don't care if I sell it, but a bargain compared the woofers selling on ebay. $2450.00 ST2 #2 smoother, ca. WWII era as it has a hardwood tote (original) and that typical coarse lever cap grinding of the era; all parts are original, and in extra clean condition, with nearly all its surface grinding on it; just some dust, from its sitting idle in the shop. $325.00 ST3 #3 smoother; this type 19 example is in fine condition, with some patina to the exterior; most grinding marks still visible, indicating it saw very little use. $75.00 ST4 #4 smoother; type 15, with all original parts; in clean shape with nearly all japanning and full length sweet- heart iron; scratched on lever cap and main casting's exterior from half-hearted cleaning; still a nice worker. $55.00 ST4.5 #4 1/2 smoother; type 11, with all original parts and a nice uniform patina to the exterior; full length iron and nearly 100% japanning; a fine specimen for collecting or using. $115.00 ST5 #5 jack; type 18 in extra clean, nearly factory new con- dition, with all original parts. $75.00 ST5.5 #5 1/2 jack; type 11, but with later Stanley iron; a cleaner than typical example, with 90% japanning, perfect for working panels. $60.00 ST6 #6 fore; type 9, with all original parts and 90% japanning; a 1/8" diameter hang-hole are heel is only 'apology'. $60.00 ST7 #7 jointer; type 13, with all original parts and 95% japanning; good patina to exterior and full length iron. $110.00 ST8 #8 jointer; type 7, with 90% japanning; cap iron appears to be later Stanley replacement; lever cap has some minor dings on its face - nothing at the bearing end of it; plenty of life left in the laminated iron; a perfect worker. $110.00 ST9 #79 side rabbet; near factory new, with 99% plating, this one has the depth stop. $85.00 ST10 #92 butt gauge with patent date stamped on rosewood head; a nice working gauge with lots of brass for your buffing pleasure (should you choose to do); gauge has seen some use, but it ready for more with no damage other than minor sliver adjacent to brass wear strip; leftmost at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/gauges.jpg $75.00 ST11 #49 match plane; 99% nickel plating, original cutters (both ends are sharpened, as some guys did that); would be tough to find a cleaner one of this scarce match plane. $155.00 ST12 #39 1/4 dado; type 1 model, with size embossed on right side; near factory new condition. $145.00 ST13 #19 knuckle joint block plane; good clean worker with no damage to mouth area; iron is later Stanley replacement. $55.00 ST14 #10 1/2 smooth rabbet; type 11 model, with all original parts; 95% japanning, with plenty of meat to the iron; initials stamped in side don't detract. $175.00 ST15 #24 transitional smoother; last model with high knob; this one saw little use and will be a perfect upgrade for that dog in your collection. $110.00 ST16 #65 1/2 low angle block plane; earlier model, ca. 1905, with all original parts; overall in clean shape, with no damage to bed, the sides have some tarnish spots here and there; perfect worker. $55.00 ST17 #177 Rosewood mortice and marking gauge with patented shoe to scribe along curved edges; marked "STANLEY" on the head; this one has seen use, but it still perfectly functional, with all three points eager to scratch; rightmost at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/gauges.jpg $60.00 ST18 #53 adjustable mouth spoke shave; this is a very early Stanley product as the patent date is faintly incised on the bottom, it has the composite lever cap screw (brass surrounds steel screw) and the J logo on iron; 90% japanning, a nice example. $45.00 ST19 #25 6" sliding rosewood bevel; factory new. $30.00 ST20 #48 match plane; earlier model with japanning and floral casting; 60% japanning, proper cutters, a sound worker. $75.00 ST21 #51 spoke shave; sweetheart model with 95% japanning. $25.00 ST22 #48 bit gauge in nearly factory new condition; handy gizmo for attaching to your Jenning's bits to regulate depth of cut. $20.00 ST23 #75 bull nose rabbet; this one dates from ca. 1890, and is in extra clean condition with 90% japanning; a very handy tool for odd trimming. $35.00 ST24 #80 cabinet scraper with 99% japanning and original un- marked blade. $40.00 ST25 #50 combination plough, rabbet, and beading plane in extra clean condition; this one still has remnants of the original box and the instruction pamphlet; dates to the 1940's as it has a rosewood handle; complete with chip deflector and cutter bolt; cutters are still in original box; 99% nickel plating. $215.00 ST26 #112 cabinet scraper; best scraper ever made; this one has 95% japanning and just needs a quick cleaning to make it look fab; blade is Disston replacement; tip of tote has very minor flake off it. $190.00 ST27 #9 1/2 block plane; very clean model from the 1930's, with all original parts. $45.00 ST28 #35 transitional smoothing plane; sweetheart model, with all original parts; extra clean, the transitionals are tough to find in this condition; blade has tarnish is only real apology; another chance to upgrade the dog in your house. $145.00 ST29 #25 rosewood sliding bevel with 8" blade; seen use, but still ready for more and cleaner than typical. $20.00 ST30 #8 jointer; type 4, pre-lateral, with all original parts; a clean example with 90% japanning. $145.00 ST31 #7C jointer; type 10 with rare WW logo; all original parts, with nice two-tone color tote; 95% japanning, this is a scarce example for those trying to collect all the types. $120.00 ST32 #45, type 9, in original wooden box (sliding lid missing); complete with 90% nickel plating. $245.00 ST33 #102 block plane; type 2, with about 60% japanning, most missing off lever cap; all original; sound worker. $25.00 ST34 #766 vise in nearly factory new condition; STANLEY is embossed and painted red; a solid vise for smaller work; http://www.supertool.com/forsale/vise.jpg $65.00 ST35 23 cutters for the #55; these have all been re-shaped, some more so than others; however, they are fine for you to make into custome profiles or whatever; none are short and all are usable. $95.00 ST36 4 custom cutters for the #55: 61, 63, 65, and 66 quarter hollows; never used, with dried cosmolene on them. $55.00 ST37 New old stock #55 cutters, with just some dried crud here and there all complex profiles and standard to #55: 36 and 38 fluting; 212 reeding; 102, 104, 106 Grecian ogee and astragal; 86 reverse ogee; 113, 115 cove and astragal; 73, 75 quarter round; 95 Roman ogee; 62, 64 quarter hollow; 40, 41 chamfer; priced individually at $12.50. <---------- price WOODEN PLANES ****** ****** WP1 J.Kellogg/Amherst 7/8" toted match planes with plated fences; good and clean, these are perfect workers for 3/4" to 1" thick stock. $80.00 WP2 E.Smith 3/8" dado with screwed stop; this one is perfectly straight and cuts deeper than normal; minor roughness on top of wedge finial; good size for 3/4" stock as 3/8" is half of 3/4". $60.00 WP3 Union Factory single iron 8" smoother in extra clean condition; thick laminated iron by Baldwin Tool. $45.00 WP4 C.Warren/Nashua moving fillister; the Warren's made a unique style fillister, where the fence is affixed to brass castings, allowing it to be moved up along the left edge of the plane so that the plane could be used as a common rabbet over the full width of the sole; this guy has a solid boxed edge, a screwed top, a good nicker, and no physical damage; just needs a cleaning; leftmost at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/planes.jpg $135.00 WP5 T.J.McMaster/Auburn/NY 3/8" boxed Grecian ovolo and fillet in nice, sound condition; nice size for cabinet work; leftmost at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/molds1.jpg $95.00 WP6 E.Baldwin 1/2" boxed Grecian ovolo and fillet; a very nice and tight profile on this sound user that has a dark patina; very graceful; second from left at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/molds1.jpg $115.00 WP7 Thomas Appleton 1/2" square ovolo; plane is nearly factory new and a nice size; second from right at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/molds1.jpg $85.00 WP8 Nice 3/4" quirked ovolo and astragal; plane is marked "JPS" in maker's area, and appears professionally made; nice rounded chamfers on this clean complex molder; 2 cracks in boxing; rightmost at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/molds1.jpg $135.00 WP9 J.King/N.York 5/8" quirked ogee and bevel with greater depth to profile than normally found; plane is good and clean; leftmost at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/molds2.jpg $125.00 WP10 M.Copeland 7/8" quirked Roman ogee; great lines to this bold profile; plane appears to have been refinished and a no-harm crack in boxing; middle at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/molds2.jpg $95.00 WP11 Unsigned 3/4" astragal and cove (commonly called bollection) in sound usable condition; rightmost at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/molds2.jpg $85.00 WP12 Unsigned 7/8" quirked Roman ogee; a professionally made plane with lignum boxing suggests the Boston area; flat chamfers and a solid massive plane; some no-harm chipping to the boxing; leftmost at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/molds3.jpg $95.00 WP13 J.Taber astragal (cut is 1" wide); flat chamfers, steep pitch to iron, wildly relieved wedge, and a rare maker's mark on this virgin beech plane that's never been cleaned; probably a southeastern New England make; middle at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/molds3.jpg $235.00 WP14 Unsigned 7/8" cove and astragal; the mate to WP12, with lignum boxing that shows some chipping; nice and massive; rightmost at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/molds3.jpg $95.00 WP15 Extra clean large round by Union Factory; this guy is so clean, you can see the factory's ink markings on the toe; would be useful for working cornice profiles, ogee feet, or leaving scrub marks on drawer bottoms or carcase backs; this toted plane measures 16" long with a 2" wide single iron; leftmost at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/molds4.jpg $75.00 WP16 Burhnam Fox & Co 5/8" double bead in extra nice shape; these double beads are ideal when working stubborn grains as you simply flip the plane around and plane from the opposite direction; rightmost at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/molds4.jpg $85.00 WP17 1/8" Union Factory single boxed bead in near factory new condition; heel is marked 3/16" but it's mis-marked as it's definitely a 1/8"; this is a very tough size to find, and perfect for cabinet work. $55.00 WP18 1/2" H.Chapin single boxed bead in near factory new condition; just minor stain here and there. $30.00 WP19 E.&T.Ring slide arm in extra clean condition; a nice example for groovin', this one has gains cut for the bottom of the arms so they don't pivot; wooden thumb screws to secure the arms and depth stop are in fine shape. rightmost at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/planes.jpg $110.00 MISCELLANEOUS ************* MI1 Starrett combination square with centering head; clean shape with minor rust spots hear and there on the rule; level and scribe intact. $60.00 MI2 Millers Falls circular shave in extra clean, near factory new condition; cocobolo turned handles and most red finish in throat; blade needs regrinding; middle at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/mf1etc.jpg $60.00 MI3 Bartlett's patent scribe with double stems that have pizza wheel-like cutters for cleaner marking; this one just has the patent date stamped in the fence; it's in extra clean condition, with 95% nickel plating; leftmost at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/mf1etc.jpg $55.00 MI4 Kimball 6" blade drawknife (cutting edge is 6" long); a clean example in a tough size to find; handy size for finesse cutting. $40.00 MI5 Disston 12" back saw; good and straight, no damage to handle; a quality saw . $60.00 MI6 Millers Falls 6" sweep brace; no damage to this sound worker, with about 50% finish remaining. $45.00 MI7 Yankee No. 31A spiral screw driver; reversible mechanism; in fine working order and cleaner than normal; measures 14" long when closed; includes in bit. $25.00 MI8 Barber&Genn 10" long dovetail saw; just like the IT, but less money; straight, needs a sharpening; top horn has a tight crack in it; one split nut replaced; tough to find these old dovetail saws in usable shape. $110.00 MI9 6 extra clean boxwood handled Marples cabinetmaker's screw drivers; not new, I'd say from the 1960's: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/sdrivers.jpg $95.00 MI10 Simonds 14" back saw with fruitwood handle; many will tell you that Simonds made the best saws, myself included; this example has the normal tarnish to the blade and is ready to be put back in use. $70.00 MI11 Pair of minty No 111 Starrett steel square gauges for making repeatable cuts; a must have for anyone who uses a framing square. $22.50 MI12 Union Tool Co. machinist's double square with 4" graduated and hardened rule; mint, in original box, this is a high quality tool; rightmost at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/3tools.jpg $45.00 MI13 Primitive scorp with wooden handle; great for hollowing chair seats, barrels, bowls, etc. fine worker; center at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/3tools.jpg $45.00 MI14 Extra nice and clean Millers Falls rosewood handled archimedian screw driver with extra chuck for small bits; patented Nov. 20, '94, this guy is in near factory new condition; no screw driver bits, but those are around; leftmost at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/3tools.jpg $65.00 MI15 Fabulous Preston bull nose rabbet with about 75% japanning; all original and undamaged; measures 3 3/4" long; top left at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/english.jpg $135.00 MI16 Boxwood shave with adjustable fence; a reverse ogee profile, the 'iron' is sharpened on both sides so that you can change direction on grain reversals; perfect for sashwork or edges of table tops; shavings eject from top; made by Gleaves; tiny no-harm crack in boxwood; top right at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/english.jpg $145.00 MI17 Stunning and massive gunmetal shoulder plane with mahogany stuffing; sweated on steel sole, plenty of meat to the iron, this guy is what a shoulder plane is all about; blade width is 1 1/2", sole measures 8" long; looks an awful lot like what's about to be debuted here at Superior Works; bottom at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/english.jpg $395.00 MI18 Magnificent set of 6 rosewood handles socket paring chisels by C.E.Jennings, in their original wooden box; this set, No 401, is of the highest quality, and it saw very little use; 1/4", 1/2", 3/4", 1", 1 1/4", and 1 1/2" are included; blades have original shine with some minor tarnish here and there; oak box's top has a 2" crack/ding in the top: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/chisels.jpg $345.00 MI19 Beech screwed and plated spokeshave with 2 1/2" blade; mouth has a brass wear strip; tool is dirty, but will clean ok; blade has plenty of life left to it: top at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/shaves.jpg $45.00 MI20 Small Disston dovetail saw with brass plated back; blade measures 6" long; turned fruitwood handle; etching still bright on blade; uncommon size: middle at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/shaves.jpg $65.00 MI21 Beech spokeshave with 2 1/2" blade; clean shape, ready for more use, minimal wear on sole; bottom at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/shaves.jpg $30.00 MI22 Very scarce Maine Screwdriver by Furbish&Hamlin of Augusta Maine; this thing has an internal ratchet that is switched by pulling the collar at the top of the shank and turning to the right or left; wood has normal dings on it, but over- all in fine working shape; rightmost at: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/mf1etc.jpg $90.00 MI23 Mint 1 5/8" double iron by Buck Brothers; this laminated iron, by a quality 19th century maker, is begging for you to make it a plane. $25.00 MI24 Matching set of 22 Moulson Bros. bits, all in crispy clean condition with no damage; there are 2 reamers, two countersinks, 10 center bits, 1 taper bit, and 7 nose bits; not in the image are 4 more nose bits that have had nose-ectomies - you can make them into shell bits; tough to find matching sets, and in this shiney condition: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/bits.jpg $165.00 MI25 Perfectly proportioned and balanced shipbuilder's adze; this guy would be impossible to top for use; it has its original gracefully curved handle, which hasn't been cut down; a full 6" cutting edge, with 2" long lips, and a 2" poll; no pitting, and a 5 minute honing will have your feet in harm's way. $110.00 ++++ End of thread 25490 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25491 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58721 (thread 25491) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-03-01 17:14:00 Subject: Auction report This weekend didn't go at all as it was planned to after Rob Stevens went and told me of an all tool auction in Schomberg Ontario. As I was the last of the gaggle of Galoots to leave I figured I'll give the rundown on what happened. The galoots in attendance were Darrell LaRue + SWMBO + SWMBETTE, Rob Stevens, Chris Emery and myself. Gil Lamothe who apparently was the original discoverer of this auction supposedly went to a different auction. Now this is at least the third time he was to be at an event I was going to and not showed up. Even though others emphatically claim otherwise I really must question his existence except possibly as a figment of Rob's imagination ;^) On to the auction. well it was a pure galoot auction, not a tail in sight. I would guess it was maybe 50% woodworking, 35% machinist and 15% other. There was quite a large assortment of old wrenches which sold for anywhere from around $5 cdn to I think as high as $95 cdn. there were about a dozen micrometer sets, complete with wooden boxes and most if not all attachments. they went for between $5cdn and $30cdn. $30 would get you the monster size micrometer with all the attachments that could measure up to about about 10 inches or so. I don't know machinists prices but I would bet even Karl would jump on these ;^) Planes - well there was not a huge assortment 6 or 7 transitionals couple wooden joiners A bunch of block planes few 4's Stanley 4 1/2 $65 (I think) a couple of 5's (stanley and union) a dismal 5 1/2 a couple of 75's $35 and $19 Bedrock608 with a welded crack in the lever cap $125 Stanley 93 on the verge of becoming useless $65 Stanley 98 and 99 for $65 each 3 or 4 Stanley 45's looking pretty complete and in good shape but no cutters were all around the $50 range. A Stanley 46 with no cutters, I can't remember the selling price And a complete stanley 55 with box and 4 boxes of cutters but the didn't sell it all together!! the box went for around $30, the plane for about $240 and the cutters were about $250 I think. A mess of rulers and levels, wasn't paying attention A dozen or so braces, $5 and up I don't know what the top price was A large pile of breast drills A few drawknives. Rob your scorp is currently being held hostage in the trunk of my car awaiting the ransom payment but the squirrel hunting didn't turn up anything A few spokeshaves A few saws, Disstons nothing special, not great shape A hobbies treadle scroll saw in pretty good shape, only a little surface rust for $190 A stanley axe with the most amazing looking haft went for $170. I'm not on axe guy and I can't really explain what it what that made it so but the haft had a beautiful shape to it. 3 beam mortising drills, one in very good shape, no bits $130, another in ok shape $80 I think and the one I bought with 4 bits was $70. I haven't looked at it since the auction but it was rusty, the wood seems solid but very grungy and it has at least one piece missing that I know of but it should be easy to make a replacement if I can find a machinist, otherwise I'll make a wooden one. Other neat stuff I got was a super crispy Stanley 97 marking gauge and a 207A bench dog for $5 each. Also it a lot of 7 misc. tools for $5 I got two very strange saw sets. I didn't even recognize them as saw sets, they looked like some sort of punch as they had obviously been hammered at one end. After some painstaking research (I was able to finally read "aw set" on the side of one of them) I determined they were saw sets. I'll try to get a picture posted soon. hopefully the others in attendance can fill in any ommissions and correct any faults. Dan ++++ End of thread 25491 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25492 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58722 (thread 25492) ---- From: "Lee T. Smith" Date: 1999-03-01 17:16:00 Subject: Archives? Help!!! Okay, I try to use the archives so I won't use up bandwidth on chewed over subjects, and after I get the results from my search, *every* link I click on brings up a message saying that the page doesn't exist. Is there some magic formula for using the archives that I don't know, or are the archives just messed up in some way? Lee Smith ---- Start of Message 58763 (thread 25492) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-03-02 00:57:00 Subject: Re: Archives? Help!!! Lee T. Smith wrote: > > Okay, I try to use the archives so I won't use up bandwidth on chewed > over subjects, and after I get the results from my search, *every* link > I click on brings up a message saying that the page doesn't exist. Is > there some magic formula for using the archives that I don't know, or > are the archives just messed up in some way? > As I give out the great, insider, secret of oldtools, which has nothing to do with oldtools and has much to do with auxiluary brains. http://www.eGroups.com/list/oldtools/ Use that instead. Roger (Who has a palmpilot download all area auctions and has a terrible time leaving his brain at home while at the flea market.) ++++ End of thread 25492 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25493 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58726 (thread 25493) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 1999-03-01 16:48:00 Subject: FS: 3/4 inch round, price reduced There were no takers on this last month, so I have reduced the price in hopes of finding it a good home. WP2: Round, Sandusky Tool Co. Ohio. The iron is 3/4 inch wide. Stamped "92" with a leaf on the toe. The leaf also appears on the heel, with a bunch of stuff I can't read (whacked a time or two too many when ejecting the iron, no doubt). Small chip on sole about an inch behind the mouth. A bit banged up here and there but a good user. Reduced to $14. As always, standard oldtools terms apply. Or, since I'm still looking for a 1/4 inch hollow and a 3/8 inch side bead, I would be happy to trade for one of those. -Ken Ken Greenberg IT #321; Blue Galoot #82 400 Los Gatos Blvd., Los Gatos, CA 95032 http://www.calast.com/ken/Personal/wood.htm ++++ End of thread 25493 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25494 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58727 (thread 25494) ---- From: "Peterson, Samuel L." Date: 1999-03-01 17:50:00 Subject: RE: Neanderworld offerings + Mallet set offer Gentle Galoots, March Madness Special - !!!DOGWOOD MALLET SETS!!! Three matching mallets; One 6 inches across, 3 inches at the center. Another smaller one 5 inches across, 2 to 2 1/2 at the center. Carvers mallet 4 1/2 inches across and 5 inches tall. This is the only time I may have Dogwood mallets and they look great and should perform even Better. This is a heavy, tightgrained wood. This will give you a large mallet, medium mallet and the carvers mallet for $100.00 per set. Please respond immediately if you want a set. First 3 people to respond get them. #1 Stanley #606 - Low knob, Type 3, 50% Japan. Would like to trade this for a #604 with the flatsides. #2 Sargent #79 duplex rabbit plane, Floral casting, 80% Japan, good condition. Bought from the Leachmeister, so it has a good pedigree! $70.00 #3 Millers Falls #22C. Left cheek cracked. Good only for parts. $20.00 NEANDERWORLD OFFERINGS The following items are handmade, and will be of the highest quality. Bench Jigs: These are produced from 3/4 inch stock, so that all jigs work with each other. Each order will be produced in a custom run; thus I need to know the size and spacing of dogholes in your bench. Standard wood will be kiln dried Red Oak, but all jigs will also be available in Black Walnut or Cherry for an additional amount (these woods make a very striking effect on a bench). Boiled Linseed Oil will be applied as a finish for all jigs. Bench Hooks - These are handy devices that will be used time and time again. I use 3/4" stock, finished with Linseed Oil. In each set, one benchhook is standard and the other has a 45 degree angle. The 45 degree one also has a 90 degree cut into the back stop board. Edges are beveled and all in all, quite nice! The main boards grain is oriented so that if one would cut into the board, it would be a rip cut (This makes the board last longer). Approximately 10"x 10" An excellent investment at $60.00 per set. Bench Stops - These are 8"x 2 1/2" rectangular blocks with two dowels anchored to their bottomsides. Very handy for butting work up against for planing. When used in pairs with the wedges, they provides a nice way of clamping without having clamps in the way. I use these for many different tasks. Highly recommended! $10.00 Each Wedges - These are cut from 8"x 2 1/2" blocks with a 12 degree angle. They provide good holding power, especially when used with the stops. $5.00 Pair Bench Dogs - 3/4" dowel cut to 4" length. Hey, If I didn't include them, people would ask for them! $.50 Each NeanderTools: NeanderMallet -This sizable round mallet will soon become your favorite! It will withstand lots of abuse, and can be used for pounding holdfasts, etc.. Each head is made from select pieces of Elm, and will measure 6" long with 3" faces (Tapers from 4" in the center). This is an exceptional wood for mallets due to the interlocking and beautiful grain patterns. $30.00 Each NeanderClub - Otherwise known as a froe club, they are made from tree roots or select pieces of elm, etc... Each NeanderClub measures approximately 16" and will be unique, due to the nature of the materials. $20.00 Each NeanderGlut - Wooden wedges are very handy items. Splitting a freshly sawn tree apart requires several of these. If you will be splitting a large plank from a tree, I would recommend at least 4 pair to get a proper split going and to "pop" the plank loose. They work great and come in pairs. Each one will be approximately 2 1/2" to 4" diameter and 10" to 13" long. Since these are somewhat unique, they will be slightly different; but each set will be matched. $10.00 Pair Standard OLDTOOLS terms apply, if you have a bio on file. ++++ End of thread 25494 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25495 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58728 (thread 25495) ---- From: Gerry Kmack Date: 1999-03-01 17:56:00 Subject: Foley Saw Filer - help & info needed (!) Saw-Sharpening Galoots, I attended an auction this weekend which (among many other cool things), included the contents of a working saw sharpening shop. Along with the more obvious stuff (sawsets, hand grinders, grinding wheels, etc) was a **galoot-powered automatic saw filing machine**. This thing is _not_ a decorator item (sadly, most of the obvious woodworking tools - saws, planes, etc - went that way), so I was able to pick it up for very few bucks. Here's a description: - approx 14" long, 8" wide, 12" high - mostly cast iron - cast into the left side: "FOLEY SAW FILER" "Pat May 1, 1917 - others pend" "MFD By FOLEY SAW TOOL CO. - MPLS MINN" - on the right side a flywheel is mounted (approx 8" diameter) with a handle attached so ya' can crank it. - At the rear of this device there's a mechanism into which a saw file is mounted. - There's also a couple of push-levers which are integral to the mechanism. These guys are (apparently) intended to automatically push the saw though the machine. They work by pushing the teeth of the blade. There is a bewildering array of adjustments to control (among other things) saw file depth, angle of the file, and indexing of the levers. Here's how it works (I think): clamp the saw into the machine (teeth facing up) & turn the crank. On each stroke, the saw file makes a pass at the exposed tooth, then is raised during the backstroke. While the file is being retracted, the index levers (which have clicked into position during the filing stroke) push forward, indexing the next tooth into position. Keep cranking until the side is finished & flip the saw over to do the opposite side. Anyway, that's as much as I have figured out so far... the adjustments are far from intuitive & it did *not* come with an owner's manual ;^} == has anyone ever seen one of these before? == anyone ever hear of "Foley Saw Tool Co."? == Can anyone lookup the patent? == If anyone knows *anything* about this thing (or similar machines?) I would love to hear from ya'. This machine is extremely well-made, in perfect working order (i think), and I have a pile of saws that could sure use sharpening! TIA, Gerry Kmack / Cave Creek, AZ BTW, I wore my galoot hat, hoping to meet some other AZ galoots or mebbe AATC members, but (sadly) did not. ---- Start of Message 58760 (thread 25495) ---- From: "Alan N. Graham" Date: 1999-03-01 23:51:00 Subject: Re: Foley Saw Filer - help & info needed (!) If I remember correctly, Tom Law demonstrated the Foley equipment in Anatol's Saw Sharpening video. Alan N. Graham -----Original Message----- From: Gerry Kmack To: oldtools@l... Date: March 1, 1999 12:57 PM Subject: Foley Saw Filer - help & info needed (!) >Saw-Sharpening Galoots, > >I attended an auction this weekend which (among many other cool things), >included the contents of a working saw sharpening shop. Along with the >more obvious stuff (sawsets, hand grinders, grinding wheels, etc) was a >**galoot-powered automatic saw filing machine**. This thing is _not_ a >decorator item (sadly, most of the obvious woodworking tools - saws, >planes, etc - went that way), so I was able to pick it up for very few bucks. > >Here's a description: > >- approx 14" long, 8" wide, 12" high >- mostly cast iron >- cast into the left side: > > "FOLEY SAW FILER" > "Pat May 1, 1917 - others pend" > "MFD By FOLEY SAW TOOL CO. - MPLS MINN" > >- on the right side a flywheel is mounted (approx 8" diameter) with a >handle attached so ya' can crank it. >- At the rear of this device there's a mechanism into which a saw file is >mounted. >- There's also a couple of push-levers which are integral to the mechanism. > These guys are (apparently) intended to automatically push the saw though >the machine. They work by pushing the teeth of the blade. There is a >bewildering array of adjustments to control (among other things) saw file >depth, angle of the file, and indexing of the levers. > >Here's how it works (I think): clamp the saw into the machine (teeth >facing up) & turn the crank. On each stroke, the saw file makes a pass at >the exposed tooth, then is raised during the backstroke. While the file is >being retracted, the index levers (which have clicked into position during >the filing stroke) push forward, indexing the next tooth into position. >Keep cranking until the side is finished & flip the saw over to do the >opposite side. > >Anyway, that's as much as I have figured out so far... the adjustments are >far from intuitive & it did *not* come with an owner's manual ;^} > >== has anyone ever seen one of these before? >== anyone ever hear of "Foley Saw Tool Co."? >== Can anyone lookup the patent? >== If anyone knows *anything* about this thing (or similar machines?) I >would love to hear from ya'. This machine is extremely well-made, in >perfect working order (i think), and I have a pile of saws that could sure >use sharpening! > >TIA, >Gerry Kmack / Cave Creek, AZ >BTW, I wore my galoot hat, hoping to meet some other AZ galoots >or mebbe AATC members, but (sadly) did not. > > > > > >-- > ---- Start of Message 58767 (thread 25495) ---- From: phonore@i... (Paul Honore) Date: 1999-03-02 01:17:00 Subject: Re: Foley Saw Filer - help & info needed (!) Gary writes: > - approx 14" long, 8" wide, 12" high >- mostly cast iron >- cast into the left side: > > "FOLEY SAW FILER" > "Pat May 1, 1917 - others pend" > "MFD By FOLEY SAW TOOL CO. - MPLS MINN" > >== has anyone ever seen one of these before? >== anyone ever hear of "Foley Saw Tool Co."? >== Can anyone lookup the patent? >== If anyone knows *anything* about this thing (or similar machines?) I >would love to hear from ya'. This machine is extremely well-made, in >perfect working order (i think), and I have a pile of saws that could sure >use sharpening! > Sounds like an early Foley Saw filing machine. (since merged with Belsaw into Foley-Belsaw) still in the sharpening business and still advertising those "correspondence" courses that we kids used to see in the back of Popular Mechanics.etc, (along with the 97 lb Charles Atlas - "weakling" ads). I've got a more recent Foley myself (the #387) with a tail and it is quite a fascinating piece of machinery for a simple mind like mine, and it actually will do a good job on a saw with uniform teeth. They usually come with a carrier bar. The saw is bolted to it and the bar fits into guides on the machine. Sounds like a great find! Congratulations. Paul Honore Hebron CT ---- Start of Message 58778 (thread 25495) ---- From: "Bill Taggart" Date: 1999-03-02 01:30:00 Subject: Re: Foley Saw Filer - help & info needed (!) -----Original Message----- From: Gerry Kmack >I attended an auction this weekend which (among many other cool things), >included the contents of a working saw sharpening shop. > "FOLEY SAW FILER" > "Pat May 1, 1917 - others pend" > "MFD By FOLEY SAW TOOL CO. - MPLS MINN" > >- on the right side a flywheel is mounted (approx 8" diameter) with a >handle attached so ya' can crank it. > >Here's how it works (I think): clamp the saw into the machine (teeth >facing up) & turn the crank. On each stroke, the saw file makes a pass at >the exposed tooth, then is raised during the backstroke. While the file is >being retracted, the index levers (which have clicked into position during >the filing stroke) push forward, indexing the next tooth into position. >Keep cranking until the side is finished & flip the saw over to do the >opposite side. Sounds like you got it.... >== has anyone ever seen one of these before? >== anyone ever hear of "Foley Saw Tool Co."? >== If anyone knows *anything* about this thing (or similar machines?) I >would love to hear from ya'. This machine is extremely well-made, in >perfect working order (i think), and I have a pile of saws that could sure >use sharpening! Yes, and yes to the first two questions... Tom Law demonstrates one of these on the saw sharpening video - seems to work exactly as you describe above - perhaps contact Mr. Law, as he also demonstrated other Foley equipment, including a machine that automatically re-cuts teeth. - Bill Taggart ++++ End of thread 25495 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25496 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58729 (thread 25496) ---- From: Stu Ritter Date: 1999-03-01 19:04:00 Subject: FS: 112 scraper plane Humm, didn't realize it was FMM today..where did all the sale posts go?? That's what I get for being away for a year.. Anyway Stanley 112 cabinet scraper plane in excellent condition. Purchased from MofA some time ago. Sweatheart era with correct blade. Stanley decal still on handle (75%) No chips, nicks or errors. $225.00 shipped. Stu Ritter ++++ End of thread 25496 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25497 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58731 (thread 25497) ---- From: jcrum@a... (John Crum) Date: 1999-03-01 18:11:00 Subject: FS: March Madness! GG's, For the month of March, I'll be offering 10% off orders over $35 or 20% off orders over $100. (As always, shipping is extra and not discounted.) See my list on the web at: http://www-ncmir.ucsd.edu/~jcrum/forsale/ If you want the list emailed to you, just ask... Thanks a bunch, jc ++++ End of thread 25497 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25498 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58732 (thread 25498) ---- From: tkissam@c... (Todd Kissam) Date: 1999-03-01 18:29:00 Subject: Patina - March 13th and 14th I just was asked the dates of the Patina spring auction and sale - so I checked out Karl "the hustler's" web page at: http://www.mindspring.com/~sangerkw/Patina99-1.html Good photos Karl, Tony and I will find some way to get even. Anyway, there have been only 81 visitors to this site!!!!! This sale is one of the two premier tool sales on the east coast. Free tail-gating, 90 + tables of all levels and kinds of user and collector tools. Famous old-tools personalities - infamous tool personalities (or lack of) who will sweet talk your wife (ex or current) and dance on your grave (bottom dweller/feeder, metalhead, wood denigrating, low-down, four flusher, scally-wag - you know who you are....) The auction photos show a pile of 20 or more plow planes plus a batch of nice looking chisels and gouges - the auction is usually CHEAP!!!!! - they take absentee bids - the show is OUTSTANDING - it may not even be that cold outside at 6:00 am this year. ======= Here is a repeat of my previous years Patina advice: Some redundant material - but neanderthals need this ;^) ======= Removable layers (clothing) are important. Some Patina tool hunting advice: 1. Find someone you know: Leach, Bill H. etc., and establish a base of operations. 2. Leave your layers as you do not need them under their table. 3. When you can not possible carry anything more - beg a box and stash your loot under their table as well. 4. You better buy something from the owner of the space you are using - consider it your base of operations entry fee. 5. Do not do any of the above with Karl - he will just sell your stuff after he swipes anything good from your haul. ;^) 6. Introduce your self to the dealers - tell them your interest. They will have 10 times the inventory back home. Many have a stash under their tables for special customers - or they can tell you where to find what you are looking for. Most of these dealers are really great people - who are more than happy to share their information. If you do not even try to establish a relationship with these folks you are missing out on the best part of Patina. 7. If you are the kind of galoot that is looking for something special - leave a business card with the dealers with what you are looking for written on the back. Most tool dealers do not charge much in the way of mark-ups. They can even price stuff lower if they know someone they can sell it to the same day they buy it. 8. Check out the auction. They are dealers as well as Patina members who can handle your absentee bid. When there are a lot of items (as there are this year), there can be a lot of bargains. Why let Patrick get them all? ;^) 9. Consider spending the $12 to become a member of Patina - you get an OK newsletter plus an invite to a lot of neat meetings - both user and collector focused. Keeping Patina healthy helps keep Karl off the street - believe me - you don't want him living in a carboard box at the end of your driveway - even if he does use Dial. 10.Get there early and check out the tailgaters. There will be 20 to 40 folks selling starting at 7:00 am or before. As each seller pulls into the parking lot - the locusts descend. 11.Post your gloats here to the list come Monday. You left coaster have never seen a real tool show, "AW" hah! -- neener, neener O'deen, you could fill your Bubba-mobile 50 times to the top and not make a dent in the number of tools at the show. Ernie - maybe you got no humidity and nice weather - but we got more tools than the whole state of AZ in one building. ==== Now, I know there are a few of you out there - quiet bashful lurker types who are probably wondering - what is Patina? Damascus, MD - March 13th Saturday 9am on - plus auction Sunday. Check out the Karl's wite above for directions. This is one of the best tool shows of the year - 100 dealers - 40 tailgaters, tools from $1 to $9,000 - with tons of every kind and price. This is the best show within several hundred miles and it only happens once per year. Dealers come from England and CA, all ports between to tempt you. They come to sell! - Hundreds of galoots drive for hours, some even fly from WA to buy. This is not like a fleamarket or an antique mall - the prices are much lower than Ebay, if the average table has 100 to 200 tools for sale - that's 20,000 tools. Patrick Leach, Bill Gustafson, Clarence Blanchard, Tony Seo, Bill H. (yeah even Karl) will be there among other galoots. Martin Donnelly will be there. The "big" english dealers too! Todd ++++ End of thread 25498 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25499 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58734 (thread 25499) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-03-01 18:37:00 Subject: Plane Dreams Just a quick FYI..... Rick's little invention is a real thing. I have reviewed the CAD's and if this is a hoax, he sure went trourh a awefull lot of work to pull it off..... I'll reserve judgement till I see an actual product though ;-) John... heading ot the airport... Se You in MI tonight!!! ---- Start of Message 58740 (thread 25499) ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1999-03-01 19:09:00 Subject: Re: Plane Dreams "John A. Gunterman" wrote: > > Just a quick FYI..... Rick's little invention is a real thing. > > I have reviewed the CAD's and if this is a hoax, he sure went trourh a > awefull lot of work to pull it off... If not, he's a month early for All Fools Day. Ed ++++ End of thread 25499 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25500 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58735 (thread 25500) ---- From: "Lee T. Smith" Date: 1999-03-01 18:36:00 Subject: Brandon Ford I would like to get in touch with Brandon Ford. The email address I got from the archives bounced. Does anyone know how to contact him? Thanks. Lee Smith ++++ End of thread 25500 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25501 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58736 (thread 25501) ---- From: JThomp4432@a... Date: 1999-03-01 18:49:00 Subject: Paddymania? Greetings, A quote from Patrick's tool list -" and who also was the only guy that famed pianist, Jan Ignace Paderewski, would let tune or touch his piano " Speaking of Paderewski, in the latest Smithsonian magazine, there is an article about him. In 1892 a London newspaper wrote " Paddymania has reached such heights that three New York ladies have embroidered musical phrases from his Minuet on their stockings". A century later we have Paddy-shellac-mania ! What's with these Paddy guys? Will we have to wait another century for the next one? Bob ++++ End of thread 25501 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25502 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58741 (thread 25502) ---- From: HeyzaD@a... Date: 1999-03-01 19:09:00 Subject: FS a couple H&R pairs Greetings FGs, I have a couple extra mactched H&R pairs for sale. A 1" Ohio Tool pair and a 3/4" pair from Greenfield Tool. Both are in the same G+ condition as when I acquired them from Tom Witte. $40 for each pair or both pairs for $70 (plus shipping). Dennis Heyza looking forward to seeing Mr Gunterman this evening ++++ End of thread 25502 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25503 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58744 (thread 25503) ---- From: Paul Aud Date: 1999-03-01 20:35:00 Subject: Stanley's 800 # I saw someone post a question about Stanley's 800 #. The only reply I saw was to call the 800 info line. I tried that and it didn't work (I asked for Stanley, not Stanley tools). I have since found the web page: http://www.stanleyworks.com/ The 800 number for parts is (800)-262-2161. They also have a catalog available with parts and prices. I know most of you probably already have this info, but it seems that a few don't. later, Oddball ++++ End of thread 25503 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25504 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58750 (thread 25504) ---- From: "Phil Bassett" Date: 1999-03-01 21:55:00 Subject: FS:Old Woman's tooth,Langdon miter box,Gunn saw vise GG's today is St.David's day -the patron saint of Wales.Since I'm from Wales originally I thought I'd have a sale day. 1. A Griffiths of Norwich "old woman's tooth" closed mouth router plane.It is 6" wide and 2 3/4" front to back.It has a beech body and wedge and appears little used and in good shape.It is stamped on one side GRIFFITHS NORWICH with the owners initials J.R.D on each side. The iron is 9" long and made by Marples$son 1916.Width of the tapered iron is 9/16". There is a score line on one part of the sole otherwise the sole looks unused.The only other visible flaws are a hairline surface crack on the corner of the upper wedge opening. I can answer any questions or give a better description privately if needed.Bear in mind I have no experience with wooden planes please but will try and accomodate any queries. Asking $65 + shipping. 2.Langdon style miter box sans saw.I've cleaned dirt off with mineral spirits and a stiff paint brush but otherwise as found. It has the saw guides and depth stops plus an end stop on the right hand end.The corrugated back fence still retains all it's paint/japanning.The bed has lost most of it's paint and there is some white paint showing on the surface.There are no cracks or corrosion.It has a fixed position stop for set angles and a locking mechanism for intermediate angles which I could never figure out how to use. Asking $10 + shipping.(It's obviously heavy so I'd have to check the shipping costs) 3. Gunn & Co. Pa. saw vise.Retains 100% paint and I would say is unused.It has two spikes in the base to affix it into a piece of wood or a saw horse.Can't imagine anyone hammering it into a workbench - not on this list anyways.Has a nice lever mechanism and retains what would be the original piece of rope between the jaws to clamp onto a saw blade nicely. Asking $25 + shipping. OLDTOOLS terms apply if I recognize your name from the list, agreed payment in advance otherwise. Phil. Phil Bassett, Gainesville,sunny Florida. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ++++ End of thread 25504 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25505 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58751 (thread 25505) ---- From: "Alan N. Graham" Date: 1999-03-01 22:10:00 Subject: Errata - Restoring, Tuning & Using Classic Woodworking Tools It should be a happy day, but its not. Last fall I picked up a Stanley #48 match plane at a MWTCA meet near Detroit. I have a lot of tongue and groove joints to cut for a dresser I am making. The blades in the plane I picked up were sharpened at both ends, and may be replacements from a #45. After making a number of test cuts, I found it impossible to get the width of the tongue exactly the same width as the groove. I measured the width of the two cutters and then pulled out Mike Dunbar's classic resource work Restoring, Tuning and Using Classic Woodworking Tools. Mike has a nice section on the #48. Here is what he says about the cutters... "The plane uses two separate cutters made of 1/4 inch thick steel. They are 5/16 inch wide and three inches long. Originally, the plane had a third cutter that was twice as wide as the other two." I checked the width of my irons. They were both 5.5/16, just enough oversized so that the resultant tongue never quite matched the groove no matter how many ways I shimmed and arranged the irons. That's when I decided to call on the old blademaster, Ron Hock himself. I gave Ron the measurements from Mike Dunbar, including the third cutter, and asked Ron if he could make them for me. Of course he could, and after a reasonable wait they arrived at my office today just as I was leaving. I could hardly wait to try them, but talked myself into changing out of my work clothes before giving them a test run. You can imagine my reaction when I found they wouldn't fit in the plane. Ron had produced the exact irons I had requested. However, when I compared the new Hock irons with the irons the plane with , they were twice as thick. It turns out that Mike got a digit wrong in his book. The correct thickness for the irons is 1/8 inch, not 1/4 inch. Like an idiot, I had confirmed each measurement but the thickness. >From now on, I doubt want to hear anyone complaining about the problems of flattening a plane iron. I have to figure out how to flatten a 1/4 inch thick iron down to 1/8 inch. 8^( Alan N. Graham Windsor, Ontario .....or I may just take the easy road and call Ron again. ++++ End of thread 25505 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25506 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58752 (thread 25506) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-03-01 22:23:00 Subject: Patent Information Request Galoots, I have a patented plum bob!!! What on earth on a plum bob could be patented? The date is November 14, 1882 - early at that! I checked the date and it is a valid patent Tuesday, so it would seem to be a good patent. Does anyone have ready access to patent gazettes? Please email me privately. I'd like to know something about this patent and what it is for!!!!! Thanks, Karl ---- Start of Message 58775 (thread 25506) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-03-02 02:05:00 Subject: Re: Patent Information Request Karl Sanger ends his patent request with : >Does anyone have ready access to patent gazettes? Please email me >privately. I'd like to know something about this patent and what it is >for!!!!! Why privately ? I've always thought of a plub bob as being a woodworking tool. I too would like to hear what could be patented on one. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 58798 (thread 25506) ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 1999-03-02 14:18:00 Subject: Re: Patent Information Request Hi, Karl and Others The plumb bob Patent is No. 267,655 to Willis C. Vajen of Minneapolis. It describes a plumb bob with removable cap and point, each having the same screw thread so that they are interchangeable. In this way the plumb bob can be hung "upside down" with the pointed end facing up. I do wonder why anybody might want to do this. Any ideas? Trevor Robinson ---- Start of Message 58802 (thread 25506) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1999-03-02 15:58:00 Subject: Re: Patent Information Request On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:18:19 -0500 (EST) Trevor Robinson writes: >Hi, Karl and Others > The plumb bob Patent is No. 267,655 to Willis C. Vajen of >Minneapolis. It describes a plumb bob with removable cap and point, >each having the same screw thread so that they are interchangeable. In this >way the plumb bob can be hung "upside down" with the pointed end >facing up. > I do wonder why anybody might want to do this. Any ideas? > I don't think the intention is to have the point facing up. I have the OG entry here and it seems the intention is to allow the tip to point down from the bulbous end, or from the more conventional narrow end. But if you have a copy of the patent itself, than somewhere in there Willis should disclose why this has utility. Just for fun I looked up the other plumb bob patent that year. William L. Bergen of Batavia, Ill. received patent 266,671 for PLUMB - BOB. Here is the highly enlightening claim: The combination of the plumb-bob A with the case and spool B, substantially as and for the purpose herein described and shown. Yep, that clears it up. Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 58832 (thread 25506) ---- From: "Bill Taggart" Date: 1999-03-02 22:57:00 Subject: Re: Patent Information Request -----Original Message----- From: Steve Reynolds > I don't think the intention is to have the point facing up. >I have the OG entry here and it seems the intention is to allow the >tip to point down from the bulbous end, or from the more conventional >narrow end. But if you have a copy of the patent itself, than somewhere >in >there Willis should disclose why this has utility. My understanding of why this supposedly is helpful is that with the center of gravity lowered, the plumb bob would come to rest more quickly - I do not claim that this is in fact the case, especially because I ain't no Fissikx Prophessor... - Bill Taggart ++++ End of thread 25506 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25507 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58753 (thread 25507) ---- From: Stan Faullin Date: 1999-03-01 22:31:00 Subject: Re: Errata - Restoring, Tuning & Using Classic Woodworking Tools At 05:10 PM 3/1/99 -0500, you wrote: >It should be a happy day, but its not. Last fall I picked up a Stanley >#48 match plane at a MWTCA meet near Detroit. I have a lot of tongue >and groove joints to cut for a dresser I am making. The blades in the >plane I picked up were sharpened at both ends, and may be replacements >from a #45. > >After making a number of test cuts, I found it impossible to get the >width of the tongue exactly the same width as the groove. I measured >the width of the two cutters and then pulled out Mike Dunbar's classic >resource work Restoring, Tuning and Using Classic Woodworking Tools. > >Mike has a nice section on the #48. Here is what he says about the >cutters... > >"The plane uses two separate cutters made of 1/4 inch thick steel. >They are 5/16 inch wide and three inches long. Originally, the plane >had a third cutter that was twice as wide as the other two." > >I checked the width of my irons. They were both 5.5/16, just enough >oversized so that the resultant tongue never quite matched the groove >no matter how many ways I shimmed and arranged the irons. This is pretty typical of the numerous Stanley #45 blades I've measured. They are all a little under or over the "proper" width. If I'm understanding your problem right, the fit is too loose? Since your blades seem to be OVER the required width, why don't you just lap down one of the sides to the proper width? This should go very quickly since you are not removing much material. Just be sure to always use that blade in the same position, as they won't be switchable. Basically you'll be making the groove more narrow and making the fit tighter. Take a little off at a time and check the fit as you go. If I've assumed wrong and your fit is too tight, then something is probably a little out of spec on your machined body, and you need a wider cutter, which would also need to be lapped down until the tongue fits the groove snugly. #45 blades are commonly used as replacements in #48's. I would guess that they would be much cheaper than having custom cutters made. #50 cutters are also 3" long and would also make very nice replacements. Cheers, Stan Stan Faullin check out my oldtool web page at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/faullin ---- Start of Message 58754 (thread 25507) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-01 22:44:00 Subject: Re: Errata - Restoring, Tuning & Using Classic Woodworking Tools > >> >> >From now on, I doubt want to hear anyone complaining about the >> problems of flattening a plane iron. I have to figure out how to >> flatten a 1/4 inch thick iron down to 1/8 inch. 8^( >> >> Alan N. Graham >> Windsor, Ontario >> .....or I may just take the easy road and call Ron again. >> > >Flatten 'em? This sounds like a simple resaw job! Scribe a line down the >edge of those blades, and have at it with a hacksaw! Hehe.... > >Kelly Cox I'll lend you a dusty, rusty, beltsanduh. Dont worry its safe. Took the tail off for a halogen lamp long ago. Bet you could still use it as a genuine neandertool, tho. Sounds just right for your problem. Just heft it up, weighs like a macho #8 and move it back and forth across the tops of your cutters taped together on a piece of perfectly flat glass. Make sure you keep it perfectly level as you "plane" them irons down. Forgot what grit would work best, maybe we can ask over at rec.normie? Just kidding. Sounds like a keep 'em and beg the blademaster for qquuaannttittyy ddiissccoouunntts. :=) Rick ---- Start of Message 58755 (thread 25507) ---- From: "Kelly Cox" Date: 1999-03-01 22:23:00 Subject: RE: Errata - Restoring, Tuning & Using Classic Woodworking Tools > > >From now on, I doubt want to hear anyone complaining about the > problems of flattening a plane iron. I have to figure out how to > flatten a 1/4 inch thick iron down to 1/8 inch. 8^( > > Alan N. Graham > Windsor, Ontario > .....or I may just take the easy road and call Ron again. > Flatten 'em? This sounds like a simple resaw job! Scribe a line down the edge of those blades, and have at it with a hacksaw! Hehe.... Kelly Cox Madison, WI ---- Start of Message 58756 (thread 25507) ---- From: Dave Shepard Date: 1999-03-01 22:52:00 Subject: Re: Errata - Restoring, Tuning & Using Classic Woodworking Tools >>From now on, I doubt want to hear anyone complaining about the >problems of flattening a plane iron. I have to figure out how to >flatten a 1/4 inch thick iron down to 1/8 inch. 8^( If you have a friend with a surface grinder and mag chuck, you're in business. Otherwise you'll eventually be calling Ron no matter what you try. ;-) Cheers, --Dave ++++ End of thread 25507 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25508 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58764 (thread 25508) ---- From: Gil Chesbro Date: 1999-03-02 00:58:00 Subject: Boxwood vs. Beech/Taber Plow Plane GG's, Funny how threads sometimes converge. I was trying to determine whethe r the wood I had was boxwood or beech. At the same time Sanford Moss posted a question about black pith or heartwood in his Taber plow plane with a boxwood body. My wood has the same dark (black) streaks or isolated channels running through it. Tonight, I took a finely tuned smooth plane to stock I knew was beech and to stock I suspected was boxwood. The beech produced "fuzzy," undulating shavings with ray flecks evenly distributed throughout the shaving. The suspected boxwood produced smooth, tightly wound shavings with fine, almost microscopic flecks. The beech was biege; the boxwood, yellowish. The boxwood had far more growth rings per inch. So, I suspect what I have is boxwood, European, or Turkish, or South American, or Indonesian--not the same species, but all "boxwood." My thanks to the many galoots who responded. I'm sorry I mislead you w ith the reference to ray flecks, which are obvious on beech, and subtle/very small--visible only in certain orientations--on my boxwood. And, yes, Sanford, boxwood does have dark steaks. I think. - Gil, still in Michigan ++++ End of thread 25508 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25509 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58766 (thread 25509) ---- From: Jacques Heroux Date: 1999-03-02 01:08:00 Subject: Re: Disposition of collection and Ebay Dear Galoots: Walter Barry, Ron Harper, Brian Turf, Adam Whiteson, Kenneth Stagg, Gary P. Jones and many more have written about the disposition or the donation of a tool collection to Museums. They said particularly: >We are talking again about going to the great shop in the sky and >leavin our tools behind. I am thinking about it. >Only give your "collectibles" to Museums if you never want to see them >again, or have others see them in public. Soooooo, consider any action >very carefully before donating tools to a "museum"! I agree with what they say and instead of doing what I did a few years ago (I gave almost all my tools collection to a museum) I intend to offer a part of my actual collection on Ebay. I have indeed presented for the first time and as a test case a set of 5 hollow augers and a spoke trimmer. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=72324 464 I was wondering if many of you have already tried this mode of acquisition or disposition and with what kind of satisfaction. I thank you very much for your help. Jacques Heroux http://www.itr.qc.ca/~jacqhero/indexa.html ---- Start of Message 58774 (thread 25509) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-03-02 02:19:00 Subject: Re: Disposition of collection and Ebay Jacques Heroux wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=72324464 "fixed" URL. (The word wrap killed the link when using something capable of a direct link, like netscape.) Roger Books ---- Start of Message 58811 (thread 25509) ---- From: Elp222@a... Date: 1999-03-02 18:18:00 Subject: Re: Disposition of collection and Ebay In a message dated 3/1/99 6:16:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, jacques_heroux@i... writes: > I intend to offer a part of my actual collection on Ebay. > I have indeed presented for the firsttime and as a test case > a set of 5 hollow augers and a spoke trimmer. > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand Is this like pimping on one street to sell on another? One can sell on the porch at anytime now, just set your price. One has also auctioned off items, from the porch on his own page. IMHO if one decides to put an item on *bay, those galoots who want can find it without help. Just my reactionary nature comming to the fore. 8*) Erik ---- Start of Message 58827 (thread 25509) ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 1999-03-03 01:03:00 Subject: Re: Disposition of collection and Ebay At 01:18 PM 3/2/99 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 3/1/99 6:16:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >jacques_heroux@i... writes: > >> I intend to offer a part of my actual collection on Ebay. >> I have indeed presented for the firsttime and as a test case >> a set of 5 hollow augers and a spoke trimmer. >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand > >Is this like pimping on one street to sell on another? >One can sell on the porch at anytime now, just set your price. >One has also auctioned off items, from the porch on his own page. >IMHO if one decides to put an item on *bay, those galoots who want >can find it without help. > >Just my reactionary nature comming to the fore. 8*) Real Galoots don't pimp their tools. ---- Start of Message 58829 (thread 25509) ---- From: "Kelly Cox" Date: 1999-03-02 22:40:00 Subject: RE: Disposition of collection and Ebay The background: > At 01:18 PM 3/2/99 EST, you wrote: > >In a message dated 3/1/99 6:16:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > >jacques_heroux@i... writes: > > > >> I intend to offer a part of my actual collection on Ebay. > >> I have indeed presented for the firsttime and as a test case > >> a set of 5 hollow augers and a spoke trimmer. > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand > > > >Is this like pimping on one street to sell on another? > >One can sell on the porch at anytime now, just set your price. > >One has also auctioned off items, from the porch on his own page. > >IMHO if one decides to put an item on *bay, those galoots who want > >can find it without help. > > > >Just my reactionary nature comming to the fore. 8*) > > Real Galoots don't pimp their tools. > My dos centavos worth on this subject: At the risk of getting my knuckles rapped by the list-moms, I'd like to keep this thread going but we all ought to try to avoid directly flaming fellow Porch dwellers. Jacques wouldn't be the first Galoot to sell his tools on Ebay, from what I've observed. But it is worth discussing what the rest of us Galoots think of this practice, and what it means for the status of old tools as user tools (vs. collectibles that are snapped up for their investment value, something, I think we all can agree, which would be very bad for Galootdom). Sure, we could probably get a few more dollars for the tools by hawking them at an online auction, but what if all the tool dealers did this? I am deeply appreciative of all the MWTCA members I have seen at the meets, selling a fantastic assortment of tools for really reasonable prices. They don't have to do this--a lot of the tool collectors here in Madison (from what I know of them) have basements full of tools they never use, and don't ever plan on parting with them. We owe a LOT of gratitude to those in the various organizations like MWTCA who DO sell their tools in a setting that is personal and, yes, maybe somewhat exclusive. All they seem to be asking in return is that they get to meet you and talk to you about tools... kind of like the Porch, no? Thanks for listening, Kelly Cox Madison, WI ---- Start of Message 58839 (thread 25509) ---- From: Hal Laurent Date: 1999-03-03 00:31:00 Subject: RE: Disposition of collection and Ebay "Kelly Cox" said: > >Jacques wouldn't be the first Galoot to sell his tools on Ebay, from >what I've observed. But it is worth discussing what the rest of us Galoots >think of this practice, and what it means for the status of old tools as >user tools (vs. collectibles that are snapped up for their investment value, >something, I think we all can agree, which would be very bad for Galootdom). > >Sure, we could probably get a few more dollars for the tools by hawking them >at an online auction, but what if all the tool dealers did this? Unfortunately, the tool dealers are having a harder time finding tools to sell 'cause more and more of the people they bought the tools from are selling on Ebay instead. Ebay is a good thing for sellers, but not a very good thing for buyers (at least buyers of user tools). I've bought things on Ebay, with mixed results. To some extent you're never sure exactly what you're buying 'til you get it. A well informed seller is not the norm on Ebay. With my regular trusted tool dealers the whole process is a lot safer (or at least less nerve-wracking) for me. Ebay is still relatively new as these things go. I'll be curious to see how it affects the tool business in the slightly longer term. Hal Laurent, Baltimore Maryland Home: laurent@c... Work: harold.laurent@d... ++++ End of thread 25509 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25510 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58768 (thread 25510) ---- From: John.S.North@V... (John S. North) Date: 1999-03-02 01:17:00 Subject: Tong Wars - Was Waxing Elephants Another type of tongs are tie tongs used to snake railroad ties out from under the rails. They are very like ice tongs, but bigger. Two D handles. Probably made by the Gandy Company out of Chicago. I don't know about the geometry of the hooks, but if not sharp and set well into the tie to be pulled the Gandy dancer can easily go tail over teakettle down the embankment. DAMHIK. They also occasionaly served as a weapon in the hands of an angry railroad worker. Been there, too. John ++++ End of thread 25510 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25511 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58771 (thread 25511) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-03-02 01:44:00 Subject: Saw vise question Phil Bassett wrote in his FS posting : >3. Gunn & Co. Pa. saw vise... >...and retains what would be the original piece of rope between the >jaws to clamp onto a saw blade nicely. I've always wondered what the groove along the inside of one of the jaws on saw vises was for. It's for a piece of rope ? Why, do dampen the sound ? You never know what you'll learn on oldtools... Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 58784 (thread 25511) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-03-02 05:08:00 Subject: Re: Saw vise question At 8:44 PM -0500 3/1/99, Paul Pedersen wrote: >I've always wondered what the groove along the inside of one >of the jaws on saw vises was for. It's for a piece of rope ? >Why, do dampen the sound ? One saw vise I have has a strip of thick leather in that groove, somewhat dried out and shrunk in length. Another has a braided cord sort of like the gasket inside the door of a woodburning stove. I think the purpose is to dampen metal to metal vibration, more than noise per se. Tom Holloway ++++ End of thread 25511 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25512 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58776 (thread 25512) ---- From: "Clarke Green" Date: 1999-03-03 05:26:00 Subject: Odd Little Wood Raft From the clueless seller department. Grab your straw hat Huck! Let's get on the river. (ahhhh move over there would you Huck?) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=70291327 Replies Author Date 45305 Re: Odd Little Wood Raft snoe749@i... Wed 3/3/1999 ---- Start of Message 58860 (thread 25512) ---- From: snoe749@i... Date: 1999-03-03 12:11:00 Subject: Re: Odd Little Wood Raft Clark Green wrote: > From the clueless seller department. > Grab your straw hat Huck! I especially like the turquoise racing stripe! Steve Noe, in Indianapolis snoe749@i... ++++ End of thread 25512 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25513 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58779 (thread 25513) ---- From: "Bill Taggart" Date: 1999-03-02 03:01:00 Subject: My new e-mail In case anybody cares (or keeps track of such things) I'm changing ISPs. My new e-mail for old tool-related stuff is: ILikeRust@w... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bill Taggart On the road in Chattanooga, TN ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ++++ End of thread 25513 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25514 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58780 (thread 25514) ---- From: Steve Clark Date: 1999-03-02 04:18:00 Subject: re:FS 608 and other stuff Hi Galoots: I'm trying to rid myself of duplicate planes and keep my total in the two digit range. OLDTOOL terms if you have a bio posted. 1. type 17 WWII Stanley #5 1/2 -- 75-80% japaning, everything looks original, unchipped and unbroken hardwood on both ends have a nice handworn patina, heavy casting $75 2. Stanley #191 -- pat date 6-7-10, SW cutter, has depth adj. and knicker, looks like someone tried to help the couple of spots that had lost japaning by touching a little black paint on, still a nice rabbet plane $60 3. Stanley # 190 -- Stanley Rule and Level Co cutter with approx 3/4" meat left, no knicker or depth adj, otherwise good $40 4.Witherby socket chisels -- 6 chisels with what looks to be butt (appears to be maple with dark wooded head) handles, most of them have a sprinkling of light pitting, length runs from 7"-11 1/2" ; widths are 1 1/2" (2), 3/4" (2), 1/2", and 1/4" $85 5. Gage #4 pre-Stanley transitional plane -- beautiful tote and knob, beechwood has a few checks, otherwise a beautiful plane to use or ... whatever $80 6. Stanley 608 Bedrock jointer -- my big baby, type 5, G+ condition, beautiful rosewood tote and knob, japaning 90%+, $250 ++++ End of thread 25514 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25515 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58782 (thread 25515) ---- From: "Thomas E. McCluskey" Date: 1999-03-02 04:47:00 Subject: Yankee 2H Dear GG's I was given a little Yankee 2H ratcheting screwdriver. It's approximately 3" long. Blade is blue steel, handle is bulb shaped and painted white. Printed on the handle in small letters is "Yankee" Handyman. I think this same tool came up on the list several months ago and of course I don't have the posts. If anyone could fill me in on what I've got and what it's worth I'd be much obliged. Tom McCluskey- Member in good standing of the Ancient and Honorable order of Bottomfeeders (AHOB). (By permission) Midland, TX ---- Start of Message 58820 (thread 25515) ---- From: Paul Doubek Date: 1999-03-02 21:07:00 Subject: RE: Yankee 2H Hi Tom, You could refer to the "price guide" at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=73201285 but the auction still has 6 days to go before the "value" will be established. Paul Doubek Salt Lake City, UT > I was given a little Yankee 2H ratcheting screwdriver. It's approximately > 3" long. Blade is blue steel, handle is bulb shaped and painted white. > Printed on the handle in small letters is "Yankee" Handyman. I think > this same tool came up on the list several months ago and of course I > don't have the posts. If anyone could fill me in on what I've got and > what it's worth I'd be much obliged. ++++ End of thread 25515 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25516 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58785 (thread 25516) ---- From: "HALL, HAYWARD" Date: 1999-03-02 05:29:00 Subject: See what the fashionable blacksmith is wearing this season Maybe more revealing than we need. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=70587038 Hayward Hall Springfield MO ++++ End of thread 25516 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25517 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58786 (thread 25517) ---- From: "HALL, HAYWARD" Date: 1999-03-02 05:49:00 Subject: Function of "T" bottom on carriagemakers rabbets? Howdy folks, Something I've always wondered (for at good 10 minutes, at least): What is the purpose behind the wide "T" bottoms on carriagemakers rabbets? Is it just easier to make, or does it actually serve a purpose (as opposed to making the whole plane the width of the blade)? Thanks. Hayward Hall Springfield MO ---- Start of Message 58792 (thread 25517) ---- From: Dan Miller <5lakes@i...> Date: 1999-03-02 13:00:00 Subject: Re: Function of "T" bottom on carriagemakers rabbets? At 11:49 PM 3/1/1999 -0600, HALL, HAYWARD wrote: >Howdy folks, > >Something I've always wondered (for at good 10 minutes, at least): What is >the purpose behind the wide "T" bottoms on carriagemakers rabbets? Is it >just easier to make, or does it actually serve a purpose (as opposed to >making the whole plane the width of the blade)? Whelan offers these reasons in "The Wooden Plane" --- that it gives a better view of the work being done, and a bit of clearance for fat fingers, when working in tight spots. Cheers, Dan --- Daniel Miller - 5lakes@i... Five Lakes Wooden Boat Center - Madison, WI http://www.paddlin.com/fivelakes/canoe.htm "So many boats, so little time..." ++++ End of thread 25517 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25518 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58787 (thread 25518) ---- From: "Tim Swihart" Date: 1999-03-02 08:21:00 Subject: Re: n with fuming... Tom Holloway wrote: > > Tim Swihart is amazed: >>>It's amazing how well the fumes penetrated the oil finish! > > As is John Gunterman: >>It certainly _is_ amazing.... Just plain old household amonia, huh? >>I pesonally detest "staining" or coloring woods to make thjem something >>they are not, but this fuming does not look all that grotesque to my eye... >>I think you are on to something here..... > > I guess a person needs to post pichurs to elicit amazment around > here. Folks reading at work like to have an excuse to surf the web some more instead of getting back to work perhaps? :-) Seriously though, I find it helps to see what's going on when dealing with something I've never tried. >Tim's results are consistent with my limited experience fuming A&C > inspired lamp bases, in both red and white oak, reported here a couple > months back. I too used reg'lar household cleaning ammonia, and a 5 gal. > plastic bucket with tight-sealing lid (mud bucket-that drywall spackling > comes in). I checked the first one after about 12 hours, and it was > turning brown but had some of the sickly yellow-green tinge Tim mentions, > and I was using clear ammonia. ... I read your note way back when (it's one of the ones that tempted me to actually get around to trying this myself) but didn't recall that you'd seen the same sickly yellow-green color. Glad to hear it happens w/ clear ammonia as well since that means it wasn't a problem of the dye from the ammonia affecting my saw. :-) > I'm amazed too, that Tim's saw frame responded so well even after > having linseed oil treatment. Maybe no finish at all makes the difference > between 4 days and a day and a half. Could be...then again, if it slows it down, it would make it easier to stop at an intermediate color along the way (there were some nice light shades before the yellow-green color started showing up)... I tried it even though I'd already oiled the piece because somewhere a few years back, there was an article on fuming and the author had oiled some other woods and found it helped produce better color (on non-Oak species...treated them with tannic acid too perhaps?). Wish I could find that article again, but haven't really looked for it since I'm not sure where to start. Tim S. ---- Start of Message 58796 (thread 25518) ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 1999-03-02 13:56:00 Subject: Re: n with fuming... Tim wrote: >I tried it even though I'd already oiled the piece because somewhere a few >years back, there was an article on fuming and the author had oiled some >other woods and found it helped produce better color (on non-Oak >species...treated them with tannic acid too perhaps?). I got two references in my search of my woodworking mags database (done in FileMaker Pro which is THE database program for both ease of use and power). FWW, Vol. 126, pg. 46 "Fuming with ammonia; how to get an authentic Arts-and-Crafts finish safely and effectively." by Kevin Rodel FWW, Vol. 28, pg 70 "Fumed Oak Finish", by Sam Allen. Rodel's article has an interesting comparison chart of woods and their coloration before and after fuming. Looks to me like fuming cherry could be a good substitute for darkening with a lye solution. Both authors use 26% ammonia which is harder to obtain than household grade (and would be more dangerous to handle). Rodel discusses and illustrates the use of tannic acid (obtained from the Olde Mill Cabinet Shop) to pretreat wood before fuming. It makes quite a difference on woods with low tannin. Seems to me that a ready source of tannin is as close as the nearest tea bag. Allen says to use an opaque fuming container to prevent sunlight from interfering with the evenness of the coloration. As to database programs, the favorable reviews in the PC press about FileMaker Pro are for real. I have this and MS Access on my Compaq at work and after using FileMaker Pro I find that using Access or any other database program I've tried is like trying to eat Jello with chopsticks instead of a spoon. Whacking together a 'tool' database is child's play with this baby. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Will Work For Tools W.F.M. Goss On Bench Planes is featured at The Galoot's Progress: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ++++ End of thread 25518 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25519 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58788 (thread 25519) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-02 09:47:00 Subject: End1stDay I would like to give a quick update and thank those who responded to my FS:plane dreams post about the new adjuster upgrades I am offering. At the end of the first day, seven brave souls decided why not give it a look see at least. Considering 6 of 7 were from the list of top50 posters, I hope the offer was taken seriously, as it is a real product. The legalese has been emailed. Special mention needs to be made for John Gunterman, who graciously reviewed the CAD drawings early on and took over an hour out of his schedule to call me his $$$ and discuss the fine points. His father is a master class machinist, who may get a chance to look at and offer fine tuning before we have this run built. John was literally minutes away from leaving to catch a plane and still on the phone. In true Galoot fashion, he will be swapping me an ebony, Hock equiped, Gunterman built shave for a Master upgrade. I would also like to thank Paddy and fellow GGs who have made me feel at home on the list again. Its almost as if I was active yesterday and not really gone 18 mos.... On a darker side, I was deeply disturbed by the news about Leach & Stanley. Nobody deserves that, and Patrick if your out there, you deserved far better treatment than that -- not to mention respect. LightsOut, Rick Garza ++++ End of thread 25519 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25520 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58789 (thread 25520) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-03-02 09:47:00 Subject: price for a 212 I've seen 112's "in the wild" (actually I saw a row of three, but I was in Tony Murland's shop at the time) But I've *NEVER* seen a 212. Price anyone? Even the B&G says that they are "rare". BugBear. ---- Start of Message 58791 (thread 25520) ---- From: Steve_Bussell@i... Date: 1999-03-02 12:54:00 Subject: Re: price for a 212 Prices for #212 scrapers, I believe, were in the $1000 to $1200 area. Due to the current interest in Oldtools from a collecting standpoint and the introduction of Ebay, they may be even somewhat higher than that now. If your friend is looking for a good user tool, he'd be better off looking at Lie-Nielsen (www.lie-nielsen.com). Regards, Steve Bussell bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) To: OLDTOOLS@l... @listserv.law.cornell.edu cc: Sent by: Subject: price for a 212 owner-oldtools@l... nell.edu 10:00 AM GMT Today Please respond to bugbear I've seen 112's "in the wild" (actually I saw a row of three, but I was in Tony Murland's shop at the time) But I've *NEVER* seen a 212. Price anyone? Even the B&G says that they are "rare". BugBear. ---- Start of Message 58804 (thread 25520) ---- From: Lee Sudlow Date: 1999-03-02 16:29:00 Subject: Re: price for a 212 Morning guys On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Paul Womack wrote: > I've seen 112's "in the wild" (actually I saw a row > of three, but I was in Tony Murland's shop at the time) > > But I've *NEVER* seen a 212. Price anyone? Even the B&G > says that they are "rare". > I don't want to steal too much of Brother Gary Yarrow's thunder, but there has been one report, and I do mean one, of a 212 going for substantially less than $1000. Gary managed to find a 212 at an estate auction not more than 6 blocks from the house I grew up in. When I was a kid, we drove past that house every day coming or going to the grocery, or church. Who knew? Lee Sudlow Dept. of Molecular and Integrative Physiology Univ. of Illinois ---- Start of Message 58818 (thread 25520) ---- From: "Yarrow, Gary SH" Date: 1999-03-02 19:36:00 Subject: Re: price for a 212 Aw yes! It actually happen. A 212 for $32. Yes, $32! But alas, I sold it. I had a bunch of medical bills that had to be paid, stuff not covered by insurance, and a person offered to buy the 212 and throw in a brand new LN. Since this guy was a collector, and I am a user (I stand by that!), well it was the best thing to do. The price paid for it from me? Well, that $1000 dollar remark was close. Would I still sell it today? Probably not, but my "circumstances" are different also. Did I mention that same sale yield a 112 for $28? Oh, I didn't! Well, that one I still have and use. You gotta get lucky once in awhile. BTW, if any of youse guys are in this area (yeah, right!) the 2nd week in April, there will be an antique dealer getting rid of all his planes, etc. The list that he sent me had about 180 planes listed, Most not very unusual things, except around here any sale that has non-tailed things in it is unusual. (yes, Lee, its the guy from DeSmet!). Gary ---------- > I've seen 112's "in the wild" (actually I saw a row > of three, but I was in Tony Murland's shop at the time) > > But I've *NEVER* seen a 212. Price anyone? Even the B&G > says that they are "rare". > I don't want to steal too much of Brother Gary Yarrow's thunder, but there has been one report, and I do mean one, of a 212 going for substantially less than $1000. Gary managed to find a 212 at an estate auction not more than 6 blocks from the house I grew up in. When I was a kid, we drove past that house every day coming or going to the grocery, or church. Who knew? Lee Sudlow ---- Start of Message 58828 (thread 25520) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-03-02 22:10:00 Subject: Re: price for a 212 Galoots, About the low cost of a Stanley #212 plane, Gary wrote: "Aw yes! It actually happen. A 212 for $32." Ha! I bought a near Fine one for under - less than - $20. But, I stil l worry that I overpaid! I still spent that exhorbitant amount because it was kind of "fun". The seller said he was a knowledgeable tool dealer and wouldn't sell me the G- condition #113 for less than $150. "But that little #212 wasn't worth nothin'". I took him at his word! Karl - Cheapest guy on this list! ++++ End of thread 25520 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25521 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58790 (thread 25521) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-03-02 12:54:00 Subject: Lesson - Search Deep! Galoots, This is right up there with the luck of the $5 Stanley #1 find. About a Stanley Combo plane #55, still in its cosmoline, a seller writes: "My first tool purchase and it was by accident. I bought the big box of sand paper at auction and this was at the bottom" So, when scrounging for tools, the lesson for us bottom feeders clearly is to dig to the bottom of things! *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * *********************************************** ---- Start of Message 58794 (thread 25521) ---- From: b2d@e... (Duke of URLs) Date: 1999-03-02 20:33:00 Subject: Re: Lesson - Search Deep! > So, when scrounging for tools, the lesson for us bottom feeders clearly is >to dig to the bottom of things! Was at a real skanky estate sale. Went out to the garage where there were boxes literally filled with junk and found a #96 mortise gage at the bottom of one with no price marked on it. I wandered back into the house and asked "how much?" Can't remember if it was $2 or $3. Does it matter? Even a blind pig finds an acorn every once in a while. Hmmm? Most Holy Benevolent Order of Blind Pig Bottom Feeder Rooters (MHBOBPBFR)? Keith Bohn ---- Start of Message 58855 (thread 25521) ---- From: Stewart Walton Date: 1999-03-03 06:19:00 Subject: RE: Lesson - Search Deep! I was at a little neighborhood garage sale on Saturday morning (I was supposed to be on my way to a Boy Scout campout) and it turned out to be a genuine estate sale. All the cousins had gathered to clear out Grandma's house, and after claiming the things they wanted, they put the rest up for disposal on the driveway. Grandpa must have been a Galoot, because deep in a bin I found a #98 pizza wheel mortise gauge. $1. A little deeper and I found a block plane in its original box, hardly used, not named, but the iron says "Made in West Germany". The box doesn't identify the maker either, but indicates it's a model S524 "Made in Germany". Must be WWII It looks similar to a Stanley 220, I think, except it lacks the depressions on the cheeks where you put your thumb and index finger. Also $1. Four saws for $8 (one was a 26" Simonds nibbed rip, another was a 10" 16tpi tenon saw stamped "Floyd Davies Sheffield Warranted Cast Steel" Luckily, I picked up the loose blade to that, since the handle had been attached to a new Disston 12in blade). And a neat little user-made marking knife (I guess) with a SS blade sharpened on two edges and a 1" saw on the third edge. I'm guessing that you would mark out the line and then start a cut with the saw. Looks kinda-like a stair saw, but for a doll house maybe. Even has a little leather scabbard. Yup, $1. I probably missed even more by not being there a little earlier, but was I ever happy with the treasures I found. I have a feeling Grandpa enjoyed his tools. On the one hand, I hate to gloat about my bottomfeeding tendencies, but on the other hand, I really love this stuff and oh no this slope really IS slippery. I was trying to communicate my remorse. Can someone give me a hand? No, no, up; not down. Helllpppp. I will make something. I will make something. Stewart ---- Start of Message 58859 (thread 25521) ---- From: Datoolfool@a... Date: 1999-03-03 11:03:00 Subject: Re: Lesson - Search Deep! You ask for a hand up, but methinks you're not sincere. So it is best to push you down the slope. In the metal casting business it was not uncommon to have large vats of hot caustic around for dipping parts. If someone fell in and was too far gone to recover, his co-workers, in rough mercy, would step on his head to end his suffering. I think we should step on your head and watch you sink in blissfull abandon. Only stern orders from a most determined SWMBO can stop you now. ---- Start of Message 58959 (thread 25521) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1999-03-04 15:23:00 Subject: Before OSHA was:Re: Lesson - Search Deep! On Wed, 3 Mar 1999 06:03:21 EST Datoolfool@a... writes: [snip slippery slope story] > >In the metal casting business it was not uncommon to have large vats >of hot caustic around for dipping parts. If someone fell in and was too far >gone to recover, his co-workers, in rough mercy, would step on his head to end >his suffering. We often have talk on the porch about what life was like in the "old days". Mike Field's periodic posts about workers in merry ol' England are always interesting. If anyone could wax poetic about what life was like in a foundry in say, New Britain Connecticut, around the turn of the century it would be most appreciated by at least me. I often wonder as I futz around my own shop what a woodworker of yore would do if he was seriously hurt on the job. I wonder if the boss gave a damn about his skilled workers and their working environment or treated them like a commodity. The above story reminded me of a couple of legends I have heard. When they were pouring the massive amount of concrete while building the Delaware Memorial Twin Bridges a worker slipped and fell into the hole. Immediately they stopped pouring and tried in vain to rescue the poor soul. They never had a chance. He sank way too fast, it took time before they could shut off the pouring concrete, and there was no equipment to remove concrete only pour massive amounts of it. I understand when it happened a few times thereafter they didn't even bother to stop. Just kept pouring and said a silent prayer. But the other legend is handed down in the family. It seems my great grandfather Patrick Reynolds worked in the Guiness Brewery in Dublin. One day great grandma was visited by a few officials from the brewery. They were sad to inform her that her husband had perished after falling into the vat of stout. She began to weep but said, "At least he went quickly." The foreman replied, "Oh, I don't know about that. He got out twice and went to the bathroom." Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 58980 (thread 25521) ---- From: MisterMatt@a... Date: 1999-03-04 17:49:00 Subject: Re: Before OSHA was:Re: Lesson - Search Deep! stevereynolds@j... writes: > When they were pouring the massive amount of concrete while building > the Delaware Memorial Twin Bridges a worker slipped and fell into the > hole. Assembled Galoots & Steve, This story exists for every major concrete pouring job in the land, especially Hoover Dam. It even got a notable mention in Saturday Night Fever, when Tony (the John Travolta character) is waxing poetic about the statistics of the Verrazano Bridge. So I don't buy it, that anyone ever fell into a pouring project. Just my 2 cents. And I'm glad I never had to watch anyone get held under in a vat of hot caustic for mercy. Matt Glass ---- Start of Message 59005 (thread 25521) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-03-04 21:33:00 Subject: RE: Before OSHA was:Re: Lesson - Search Deep! stevereynolds@j... writes: > When they were pouring the massive amount of concrete while building > the Delaware Memorial Twin Bridges a worker slipped and fell into the > hole. A couple of months ago, I watched a documentary on the History Channel about the Hover Dam. I remember part of the show discussing the rumors about people being buried in the concrete. Well, an engineer got on there and told how that if someone did fall in, they would be fished out - dead or alive - only because eventually the body would become a void in the concrete making a severe structural problem. Take it for what it is worth - as for myself, I doubt there is anyone buried in the Hover Dam or any other major structural object such as a bridge. Keith Rucker Tifton, GA ---- Start of Message 59061 (thread 25521) ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1999-03-05 17:32:00 Subject: Re: Before OSHA was:Re: Lesson - Search Deep! "Keith S. Rucker" wrote: > > Take it for what it is worth - as for myself, I doubt there is anyone buried > in the Hover Dam or any other major structural object such as a bridge. But then what happened to Jimmy Hoffa? Ed ---- Start of Message 59071 (thread 25521) ---- From: Chris Dunn Date: 1999-03-05 19:17:00 Subject: Re: Before OSHA was:Re: Lesson - Search Deep! Ed Bell wrote: > > "Keith S. Rucker" wrote: > > > > Take it for what it is worth - as for myself, I doubt there is > > anyone buried in the Hover Dam or any other major structural > > object such as a bridge. > > But then what happened to Jimmy Hoffa? I thought he ended up under the endzone in the Meadowlands, home of the Jersey Giants ..... > Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of my > employer. Where do THEY think JH is? Chris - Uh-oh, it's Friday again .... and remember: Don't ask, don't Tele-tubby. ---- Start of Message 59083 (thread 25521) ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1999-03-06 03:18:00 Subject: Re: Before OSHA was:Re: Lesson - Search Deep! ** Reply to note from Steve Reynolds Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:23:00 -0500 > > We often have talk on the porch about what life was like > in the "old days". Mike Field's periodic posts about workers in > merry ol' England are always interesting. If anyone could wax poetic > about what life was like in a foundry in say, New Britain Connecticut, > around the turn of the century it would be most appreciated by at least > me. I often wonder as I futz around my own shop what a woodworker > of yore would do if he was seriously hurt on the job. I wonder if the > boss > gave a damn about his skilled workers and their working environment > or treated them like a commodity. I don't think many of us have any concept of how much life has changed in the past few years. There was steady progress, albeit slow through the 19th and early 20th centuries. WWII was probably the watershed. People just didn't have as much in the "good old days" When I was a kid we had one (count 'em, one) radio in the house. Sometime later I got a small radio as a Christmas present (much valued and cherished). I am not looking for sympathy, life was enjoyable and nobody had it a whole lot better. There just wasn't a lot to go around and people worked damned hard for what they got. As a result if you couldn't pull your weight, for whatever reason, you were gone. There were a few key employees who might be carried a bit if they got sick or something but in general most people were readily replaceable, and they were replaced when required. It wasn't that people were especially callous (though they would be considered so by today's standards) they just had to struggle so much to get ahead at all. One of the problems in looking back is that we can see the conditions but we can't feel the attitudes. People were used to the conditions of the time and although they tried to improve them the conditions were generally accepted. When I was "waxing poetic" about my youth it was in no way a complaint. That was the way things were and they got better. It was my job to go to college and improve things for me and my kids. It sure was a different time, both better and worse. ernie fisch ---- Start of Message 59085 (thread 25521) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-06 03:56:00 Subject: Re: Before OSHA was:Re: Lesson - Search Deep! Ernie says: >One of the problems in looking back is that we can see the conditions but we >can't feel the attitudes. People were used to the conditions of the time and > >It sure was a different time, both better and worse. > I think is human nature to try and remember the good and forget the bad. Looking backward tends to create a picture thats not totally accurate. For example, I love a couple of old wooden planes I have. I might not if the story they told involved a lot of pain and hardship to the craftsman who have had them before me..... Rick Garza ++++ End of thread 25521 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25522 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58793 (thread 25522) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-03-02 13:19:00 Subject: Re: See what the fashionable blacksmith is wearing this season >Maybe more revealing than we need. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=70587038 > Yes, and then, to add insult to injury, the seller notes that they are "pretty stiff".....YIKES!!! Tom ++++ End of thread 25522 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25523 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58795 (thread 25523) ---- From: Gil Lamothe Date: 1999-03-02 13:48:00 Subject: Re: Stellar 10 This is one of those things that's different for everyone, I suppose. The names most responsible for my own slide down the slope, in chronological order: Roy Underhill: Watched him for years, "I like what he's doing, but where the hell am I going to find old tools like that?" Mike Dunbar: SWMBO found his Restoring... book at a used book store, hardcover, and it changed everything. More of a fluke than anything. Old Tool List: I'm not sure who exactly is responsible for the creation of the list originally, but this has been the ultimate resource. Thanks, mom. Whelan: I've been fond of woodies since day one, and his The Wooden Plane... book brought a lot of things home. Old Tool Dealers: These guys are by and large collectors who deal to fuel their habit. They are an invaluable resource, not only for procuring, but for learning tool function, as we have clearly seen here on the list. The Rees's: Their British Planmakers... book is also very informative w.r.t. tool making and function. Spots 7 through 10 are up for grabs, and I look forward to filling them in the coming decades. Gil o' the G.W.N. ++++ End of thread 25523 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25524 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58797 (thread 25524) ---- From: "Lee, Jonathan" Date: 1999-03-02 14:11:00 Subject: Stanley 100 restoration Thanks to all who replied to my queries about restoring my rusty Stanley 100 miter machine. I did use electrolysis and it worked really well. I didn't even have to get a battery charger when I managed to rescue (steal?liberate?) a 70's vintage power supply from the old equipment storage room (graveyard) here. ++++ End of thread 25524 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25525 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58799 (thread 25525) ---- From: Conan The Librarian Date: 1999-03-02 15:04:00 Subject: Shave question and potential WTB Greetings Global Galoots, I'm making a pair of candlesticks out of cherry for an anniversary gift for SWMBO. I don't have a lathe, so all the shaping is being done by hand. I have been using a combination of a rasp and one of those "microplane" thingies for rough stock removal, and they work just fine for that. However, for the final rounding and smoothing of the surface, I'd really like to go with a spokeshave. I have the #53 (the result of some Galoot magic) and it leaves a much nicer finish. The problem is that it cannot get into some of the tighter inside curves. (I don't know if the Gunterspoke would help. I have the kit (the result of some more Galoot magic), but haven't gotten around to making it yet.) I know I can get a halfway decent finish with files, and I plan to play around with a curved scraper, but I was shooting for that smooth, almost burnished look you get from a shave. So, honorable Galoots, what do I need to buy? Is it going to be an inshave? A chair devil? A cigar shave? And who wants to sell me one for a reasonable price? :-) Chuck Vance Woodworking projects at: http://www.swt.edu/~cv01/woodworking.html ---- Start of Message 58800 (thread 25525) ---- From: Robert Arthur Date: 1999-03-02 15:13:00 Subject: Re: Shave question and potential WTB You probably don't need to buy a thing (blasphemy, I know). I would use a sharp paring chisel. Rob Arthur rob@p... Dumfries, VA At 10:04 AM 3/2/99 , Conan The Librarian wrote: > >Greetings Global Galoots, > > I'm making a pair of candlesticks out of cherry for an >anniversary gift for SWMBO. I don't have a lathe, so all >the shaping is being done by hand. > > I have been using a combination of a rasp and one of those >"microplane" thingies for rough stock removal, and they work just >fine for that. > > However, for the final rounding and smoothing of the surface, >I'd really like to go with a spokeshave. I have the #53 (the >result of some Galoot magic) and it leaves a much nicer finish. > > The problem is that it cannot get into some of the tighter >inside curves. (I don't know if the Gunterspoke would help. I >have the kit (the result of some more Galoot magic), but haven't >gotten around to making it yet.) > > I know I can get a halfway decent finish with files, and I >plan to play around with a curved scraper, but I was shooting for >that smooth, almost burnished look you get from a shave. > > So, honorable Galoots, what do I need to buy? Is it going to >be an inshave? A chair devil? A cigar shave? > > And who wants to sell me one for a reasonable price? :-) > > > Chuck Vance > Woodworking projects at: http://www.swt.edu/~cv01/woodworking.html > > > >-- > ++++ End of thread 25525 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25526 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58801 (thread 25526) ---- From: "Peterson, Samuel L." Date: 1999-03-02 15:30:00 Subject: Patent models Gentle galoots, With the recent patent talk, I was wondering about the patent models. Is it true that when you applied for a patent, you submitted a model? Did these actually have to work? I have heard that some people collect these. Does the patent office have huge warehouses full of models? ---- Start of Message 58805 (thread 25526) ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 1999-03-02 16:31:00 Subject: Re: Patent models In a message dated 3/2/99 7:30:56 AM, PetersonS@m... writes: << Is it true that when you applied for a patent, you submitted a model? Did these actually have to work? >> A patent application is a complex document which outlines all known "past art" and then enumerates the unique characteristics of the new invention, the so- called "claims", in the "disclosure" section. It is assumed that the invention has actually been committed to a working model, although I do not believe a model must be submitted. If an invention is sufficiently valuable, you can almost be assured that a competitor will try to construct your invention, using your patent application as the sole source of design information. If such a competitor discovers a weakness in your application, such as essential details which were left out of the "disclosure", then it is highly likely that that competitor will correct your invention, and apply for a new patent under his own name, claiming that your invention had incomplete disclosure, and his application is the complete one. It is possible that your invention would be found invalid, and the competitor would be granted a patent, based on his submitting a complete application. There are few things that are worse than submitting a patent application which has incomplete disclosure. The second worse thing is to submit a complete application, but one which asserted too few claims, that is, the invention actually offered certain functionality, but you didn't claim that you invented that functionality. Your only defense, in that case, might be that the application was "obvious" ... but still you lose, because if it is "obvious", then it can't be "unique", and it is "unique" things that are patentable; "obvious" things aren't patentable. ---- Start of Message 58807 (thread 25526) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1999-03-02 16:48:00 Subject: Re: Patent models On Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:30:20 -0600 "Peterson, Samuel L." writes: >Gentle galoots, > >With the recent patent talk, I was wondering about the patent models. >Is it true that when you applied for a patent, you submitted a model? You have opened up a pretty fascinating subject. I will go from memory, so don't take this all as Gospel. Patent models were required from almost the get-go. I'm not sure if they were required as early as 1790, but not long afterwards. And the word required is used casually as my understanding was that the examiner decided if a model was needed, but it was thought that a working model would enhance your chances of having your application issue. So folks would always send one. They were not returned once the prosecution ended. They piled up. Then they piled up higher. The Patent Office was under a deluge of models. They were in all the hallways and offices. There were storerooms, but they had long been overfilled. You couldn't swing a cat in there for knocking over a bazillion models. It must of been like jack planes at PaddyJack O'Deen's place. Then in his infinite wisdom and mercy the Lord allowed a fire to consume the place. I'll bet the Commissioner was throwing models on the inferno. They did get new digs, and supposedly it contained enough space to house all the new models. But it wasn't long before the flood rose higher than the other. But the Commissioner in his infinite wisdom and mercy changed the rules to "don't send a model unless the examiner tells you to." When they continued to pour in the rules were changed to "under penalty of having your nose scrub-planed off, don't dare send a model to the Patent Office. This was somtime in the 1880s Alas, the stream had stopped but the pond was filled to the brim. In an effort to clean house it was decided to keep the historical, sell the interesting, and auction off the remainder. The response from buyers was almost non-existent. But some group did get control of almost all the models at some point. But they had been crated with no rhyme, reason, or identification. The owners were having a h*ll of a time uncrating and documenting what they had. Such a time that they were unable to uncrate and sell fast enough to pay the warehouse bill. This was someplace in the midwest. Last I heard someone buying surplus furniture down the street from the USPTO in Crystal City, VA found boxes of them. In the Inventors Hall of Fame in the USPTO there is a display that explains all this. Next time I'm there I will take some notes to verify all this. > Did these actually have to work? I understand that if it was something that "worked" it had to be a working model. > I have heard that some people collect these. Now this is what really surprises me. There doesn't appear to be much interest in these. I'm sure there is some interest but the going price seems to be $100-$200, so it can't be at the same level of Stanley collecting. It would seem to me there should be more interest in them. Some of them are really excellent examples of handcraft. Well made from good materials. Most that I have seen were made from wood. I'm sure a lot of oldtools were used in shops to produce these things. One more thing, most of the oldtools patents I have seen are stamped "NO MODEL". So you can stop your search for the Stanley #55 patent model now. >Does the patent office have huge warehouses full of models? > Well not full of models, but they are apparently part owners of that famous warehouse seen at the end of "Raiders of the Lost Ark". When some moving was going on, the USPTO sent a lot of their library books to a gubmint warehouse. Their stuff got put on the ground. The Air Force's stuff got put on top. The books are there for eternity. You see, it takes an act of Congress in their infinite wisdom and mercy to provide funds to have the airplane parts lifted off and the books removed. That wisdom and mercy has not yet been seen, and it is left as an exercise for the reader to guess when it will. Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 58808 (thread 25526) ---- From: "Matthew J. Prusik, Jr." Date: 1999-03-02 16:49:00 Subject: Re: Patent models Under the previous (read way old prior to 1954) patent statute, working models were required. The modern (1954 I think -- I'm sick with the flu and can't be bothered to look up the exact year) statute requires a "reduction to practice". This is operationally as the patent application (a constructive reduction to practice [of the invention]) or an "actual reduction to practice" [a working model int he environment for which use is intended]. Anyone who knows more and better about these facts, jump in here. I'm sick with the flu and recollections are foggy right now ... Matt ---- Start of Message 58809 (thread 25526) ---- From: b2d@e... (Duke of URLs) Date: 1999-03-03 01:01:00 Subject: Re: Patent models >With the recent patent talk, I was wondering about the patent models. Is it >true that when you applied for a patent, you submitted a model? Did these >actually have to work? I have heard that some people collect these. Does >the patent office have huge warehouses full of models? I saw two or three on the Antiques Road Show (a TV program Jeff) a week or two back. They were miniatures of the actual item. Yes they are collected. Keith Bohn ---- Start of Message 58813 (thread 25526) ---- From: Wesley Groot Date: 1999-03-02 18:38:00 Subject: Re: Patent models There were many patent models sold for thousands of dollars. They are usually the type of thing that would hold the interest of the highest number of people. I have a catalog from the second auction and I'll post some prices when I get home. (Or somebody else with the catalog more close at hand could beat me to it.) Someone else will have to help me out, but wasn't there a patent model (quite a lot of restoration work had been done to it.) of a plow plane at the Decatur meet? Or was it a casting pattern of same? I've been to a few Antique shows where an organization was selling patent models. The coolest ones such as relating to nautical patents, tool patents and artificial limb patents were indeed very expensive. I bought a couple of cheapies, for fun. My understanding was that the patent model submission requirements were dropped LONG ago, like around the early 1900s. Again, I'll check at home if no one comes up with real data. One final note: don't be so quick to patent things... a patent is only worth the money you can spend to defend it! ---- Start of Message 58816 (thread 25526) ---- From: sadler@b... (Alan Sadler) Date: 1999-03-03 00:19:00 Subject: Re: Patent models There were two auctions at Christies or Sotherby's of patent models a few years ago. I have the catalogs at home. If anyone is interested, I could find the dates, etc, and the source I purchased the catalogs from. They're full of lots of color plates, and have some interesting pieces in it. Respond and I'll reply. Alan ---- Start of Message 58817 (thread 25526) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-02 19:39:00 Subject: Re: patent models GGs, Its true in the early days you did submit models. In fact a lot are in a small museum in the foyer of the Patent & Trademark Office in Washington. Whats more impressive is the size of the "stacks" where they keep the original filings, some very_very_very_old, just sitting in manila folders. When I was there it evoked the same emotion of seeing Bedrocks or Woodies being mistreated terribly and abandoned to the elements...But to stand in front of the first actual whatevers, seemed a bad way to end for somebody's hard work and dreams. Kinda like keeping Einsteins brain stored under a beer cooler. True story. Your invention doesnt have to work. Just be unique. I know it doesnt make sense, but the whole patent process is kinda strange. Recently when I was trying to explain OldTools list and Galoots, and my new products to a lawyer, he thought we were all crazy. :-) Rick 'aka Ricardo' Garza US.Pat #5,739,969 ---- Start of Message 59363 (thread 25526) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-03-11 14:32:00 Subject: Re: Patent models Galoots, Paul pointed to a neat "patent" model. See: < http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=76257926 > If you are interested in collecting patent models, buyer beware! It was not uncommon for there to be multiple models or even salesman's sample made. Most folks I've talked to who buy patent models demand provenance in the form of the proper paper "tag" that the US Patent Office applied to the model. At the Owls Head annual auction and others, models with a tag bring significantly more than those without. Karl ++++ End of thread 25526 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25527 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58803 (thread 25527) ---- From: "Brent Parkin (REGINA)" Date: 1999-03-02 16:26:00 Subject: What's up with MOFA and Stanley GG's, I must have been asleep somewhere along the way, but what did I miss going on between Patrick and Stanley? Did something bad happen? Regards, Brent Parkin Regina, Saskatchewan Canada eh! Red Galoot No.32 ---- Start of Message 58806 (thread 25527) ---- From: Steve_Bussell@i... Date: 1999-03-02 16:31:00 Subject: Re: What's up with MOFA and Stanley Yeh, what he said! I noticed that little message at the end of someone's posting this morning and was wondering the same thing. Thanks for bringing it up, Brent. Curiously, Steve Bussell ---- Start of Message 58812 (thread 25527) ---- From: Tad Truex Date: 1999-03-02 18:23:00 Subject: Re: What's up with MOFA and Stanley > GG's, I must have been asleep somewhere along the way, but what did > I miss going on between Patrick and Stanley? Did something bad > happen? I believe (Patrick - correct me if I'm wrong) that this all stems from a post by Rick Garza who has been off list for over a year. I believe he was referring to the failed attempt by the Big Yellow (Bellied Scum Sucking Garage Door Opener Company) to force Patrick to remove the Blood And Gore (formerly known as The St*nley B+G) due to some sort of trademark or copyright infringement. This all transpired on or about April 1 of last? year. My recollection is that it didn't last long in part because one of the lawyers among us (sorry - the name escapes me) stepped up to the plate and took a swing. /Tad Truex ---- Start of Message 58825 (thread 25527) ---- From: "Flowers, Curt" Date: 1999-03-02 21:28:00 Subject: RE: What's up with MOFA and Stanley What Tad says below is my remembrance. Except that (unless I also missed something) Stanley only requested that Patrick cease and desist (why do lawyers need to use two words when one will do?) using the Stanley name. Which Patrick did. > -----Original Message-----Tad Truex [SMTP:truex@s...] > > > GG's, I must have been asleep somewhere along the way, but what did > > I miss going on between Patrick and Stanley? Did something bad > > happen? > > I believe (Patrick - correct me if I'm wrong) that this all stems from > a post by Rick Garza who has been off list for over a year. I believe > he was referring to the failed attempt by the Big Yellow (Bellied Scum > Sucking Garage Door Opener Company) to force Patrick to remove the > Blood And Gore (formerly known as The St*nley B+G) due to some sort of > trademark or copyright infringement. This all transpired on or about > April 1 of last? year. My recollection is that it didn't last long in > part because one of the lawyers among us (sorry - the name escapes me) > stepped up to the plate and took a swing. > > /Tad Truex > > -- ---- Start of Message 58831 (thread 25527) ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1999-03-02 22:50:00 Subject: Re: What's up with MOFA and Stanley > > I believe > > he was referring to the failed attempt by the Big Yellow We photographers refer to another "Great Yellow Father." Ed ---- Start of Message 58837 (thread 25527) ---- From: SSalbWW@a... Date: 1999-03-03 00:09:00 Subject: Re: What's up with MOFA and Stanley Curt Flowers wrote: Stanley only requested that Patrick cease and desist (why do lawyers need to use two words when one will do?) And I reply (all right, all right, I know this is off-topic, but I couldn't resist): Quote: Among the lawyer's least endearing habits is to string out near-synonyms. The causes are several. First, the language of the law has its origins in the unhurried prose of centuries past. Second, the strong oral tradition in England led inevitably to a surfeit of words to allow time for the listener to take in the speaker's point. Third, where one of the words might be unfamiliar, the synonym served as a gloss. Finally, lawyers distrusted their ability to find the right word, and therefore used a verbal scattergun instead of a rifle shot. -from The Elements of Legal Style. The book's advice: Unless absolutely necessary, choose just one word. -Shannon M. Salb, Esq. Washington, D.C. And I'm NOT defensive!!! ---- Start of Message 58843 (thread 25527) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-03-03 01:12:00 Subject: Re: What's up with MOFA and Stanley On Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:28:53 -0600 "Flowers, Curt" writes: >What Tad says below is my remembrance. Except that (unless I also >missed something) Stanley only requested that Patrick cease and desist (why >do lawyers need to use two words when one will do?) I've been told (but have not verified) that for these erdundant repetitions one word as Saxon and the other Norman. I guess the idea as to make the law accessible. > using the Stanley name. >Which Patrick did. He still uses it in the text of the web page but now awknowledges that it is a trademark owned by the Stanley Works. Unlike copyrights, trademarks must be defended or they are lost. Personally, I like the precise wording of his disclaimer. ---- Start of Message 58848 (thread 25527) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 1999-03-03 02:40:00 Subject: Re: What's up with MOFA and Stanley On Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:09:15 EST, SSalbWW@a... wrote: >Curt Flowers wrote: > >Stanley only requested that Patrick cease and desist (why do >lawyers need to use two words when one will do?) > >And I reply (all right, all right, I know this is off-topic, but I couldn't >resist): >Quote: >Among the lawyer's least endearing habits is to string out near-synonyms. As I lawyer, I'd like to suggest that in this combination, perhaps "cease" means "stop now" and "desist" means "not start again". (This is my surmise, not the result of legal research.) If a court ordered someone only to cease use of a trademark, after entry of the judgment and cessation of the mark, the infringer could then begin infringing and the mark holder would have to begin a whole new lawsuit. If ordered to cease and desist, the infringer could, upon resuming infringement, be subjected to a contempt citation without a need for a new trial. Of course, Patrick was not brought to court and has not been found (and has not admitted, I assume) to be an infringer. Instead, he entered into an agreement not to use the name "Stanley" as part of the name of his "Blood and Gore" page. I don't believe he is prevented from using the Stanley name to describe a Stanley plane -- that would not constitute infringement even arguably, I don't believe. Whether his agreement calls for him to "cease and desist," or that wasjust the phrase used in the Stanley demand letter, I dunno. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA avogadro@b... (also avogadro@w...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ++++ End of thread 25527 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25528 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58810 (thread 25528) ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 1999-03-02 18:15:00 Subject: A couple of Tools FS Dear Galoots, I have a couple of items that I would like to sell, regular Old Tools terms to familiar names. Prices do not include postage. I'm willing to ship UPS or USPS, but USPS usually is a bit less as I have to pay a store a handling charge on UPS. Stanley #7 smooth bottom jointer plane. Type 8 as far as I can figure. Has a nice tote, nice low knob, nice hanging hole in the bed. 1892 patent on the blade. $45.00 Millers Falls 77 eggbeater drill. Very good paint and finishes, couple of small chips in the paint, metal is dark. $15.00 Stanley 605 Bedrock jack plane. Has good wood and lots pf light green paint on both ends of the bed.(came out of a school or something I suspect) A nice complete uses, has a number stamped on the side. Square side style, not sure what type number it is. $75. E-mail any quetions- I think my e-mail is working again after over 2 weeks of being unable to send anything, and read mail only occassionaly. I finally went to a different e-mail provider, so my e-mail address is different now. That's all for today. Thanks. Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 25528 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25529 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58814 (thread 25529) ---- From: "Robert K. Davis" Date: 1999-03-02 18:59:00 Subject: FS: Woodworking Handtools for sale A woodworker near me is selling off some of his tools. He has posted a list of them at http://www.middlebury.edu/~harris/woodworkers.html I have no connection except that I'll be buying some of them if y'all don't beat me to them. ---- Start of Message 58819 (thread 25529) ---- From: Elp222@a... Date: 1999-03-02 20:00:00 Subject: Re: FS: Woodworking Handtools for sale In a message dated 3/2/99 12:05:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, bob@b... writes: > A woodworker near me is selling off some of his tools. He has posted a > list of them at > > http://www.middlebury.edu/~harris/woodworkers.html > great list..... ep ++++ End of thread 25529 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25530 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58815 (thread 25530) ---- From: Michael D Sohn Date: 1999-03-02 19:19:00 Subject: home and garden show I got this listing from another newsgroup. Thought you guys might be interested. Also, I don't think I get HGTV so if anyone happens to tape it I would gladly pay for your trouble. Mike Oakland, CA --------- To all Tonight at 10:30 (I think this is Eastern Standard Time) on HGTV there is a show called Modern Masters. Tonight it features Francis Whitaker. The online program guide previews the show as follows: "Contemporary American master craftsmen and women from around the country share their projects and the process of creating them. Hear about the life of 92-year-old blacksmith Francis Whitaker, for example. He's plied his trade for 76 years and is credited with keeping the blacksmithing tradition alive. Visit with master timber framer Jack Sobon who uses only hand tools. These two and many more, from stone carvers and plaster casters to mural artists, wood carvers and potters, make up each episode of this weekly series." The ads on the HGTV channel make it seem worth watching. Could be worth taping. ------ ---- Start of Message 58822 (thread 25530) ---- From: "Billy Patton" Date: 1999-03-02 21:19:00 Subject: Re: home and garden show I just checked www.hgtv.com and their schedule. There's no sign of a show called Modern Masters. Can you check that maybe it was the topic within another show??? -----Original Message----- From: Michael D Sohn To: OLDTOOLS@l... Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 1:26 PM Subject: home and garden show > >I got this listing from another newsgroup. Thought you guys might be >interested. Also, I don't think I get HGTV so if anyone happens to tape >it I would gladly pay for your trouble. >Mike >Oakland, CA > > > >--------- > >To all > >Tonight at 10:30 (I think this is Eastern Standard Time) on HGTV there is a >show called Modern Masters. Tonight it features Francis Whitaker. The >online program guide previews the show as follows: > >"Contemporary American master craftsmen and women from around the country >share their projects and the process of creating them. Hear about the life >of 92-year-old blacksmith Francis Whitaker, for example. He's plied his >trade for 76 years and is credited with keeping the blacksmithing tradition >alive. Visit with master timber framer Jack Sobon who uses only hand tools. >These two and many more, from stone carvers and plaster casters to mural >artists, wood carvers and potters, make up each episode of this weekly >series." > >The ads on the HGTV channel make it seem worth watching. > >Could be worth taping. > >------ > > >-- > ---- Start of Message 58823 (thread 25530) ---- From: "Billy Patton" Date: 1999-03-02 21:20:00 Subject: Re: home and garden show My mistake, it's there. Late in the day. Been hacking perl all day! -----Original Message----- From: Michael D Sohn To: OLDTOOLS@l... Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 1:26 PM Subject: home and garden show > >I got this listing from another newsgroup. Thought you guys might be >interested. Also, I don't think I get HGTV so if anyone happens to tape >it I would gladly pay for your trouble. >Mike >Oakland, CA > > > >--------- > >To all > >Tonight at 10:30 (I think this is Eastern Standard Time) on HGTV there is a >show called Modern Masters. Tonight it features Francis Whitaker. The >online program guide previews the show as follows: > >"Contemporary American master craftsmen and women from around the country >share their projects and the process of creating them. Hear about the life >of 92-year-old blacksmith Francis Whitaker, for example. He's plied his >trade for 76 years and is credited with keeping the blacksmithing tradition >alive. Visit with master timber framer Jack Sobon who uses only hand tools. >These two and many more, from stone carvers and plaster casters to mural >artists, wood carvers and potters, make up each episode of this weekly >series." > >The ads on the HGTV channel make it seem worth watching. > >Could be worth taping. > >------ > > >-- > ++++ End of thread 25530 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25531 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58821 (thread 25531) ---- From: thomt@u... Date: 1999-03-02 21:06:00 Subject: Auger info needed and future WTB Does anyone have a summary of the various auger bits made? I hear Russel-Jennings referred to quite often. Also coarse and fine lead screws. What's a good starter set for seasoned hardwood? If I had the right info, I'd post a WTB. ;-) Sheesh I've got 5 braces (at last count) Thom Trail GAloot ---- Start of Message 58824 (thread 25531) ---- From: elschaffer@j... Date: 1999-03-02 21:20:00 Subject: Re: Auger info needed and future WTB Thom: A great tome on "Auger and Brace" bits was generated by James Price of M-WTCA. You can contact him for copy cost , etc at: Box 6 Naylor, Missouri 63953-0006 (314) 399-2341 --ErvSawwwwwwwwz On Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:06:37 -0500 thomt@u... writes: > > >Does anyone have a summary of the various auger bits made? >I hear Russel-Jennings referred to quite often. Also coarse and >fine lead screws. What's a good starter set for seasoned hardwood? > If I had the right info, I'd post a WTB. ;-) >Sheesh I've got 5 braces (at last count) > >Thom Trail >GAloot > > >-- > > ---- Start of Message 58854 (thread 25531) ---- From: Walter Barry Date: 1999-03-03 08:11:00 Subject: RE: Auger info needed and future WTB > Does anyone have a summary of the various auger bits made? > I hear Russel-Jennings referred to quite often. Also coarse and > fine lead screws. What's a good starter set for seasoned hardwood? Mike Dunbar's "Restoring Classic Wdwrkg Tools" book has some clear pictures, descriptions, and general user info on the different types of bits and braces. Dunbar also provides a good insight into how to sharpen them. Another excellent source for info is Salaman's "Dictionary of Wdwrkg Tools" which also has a clear comparison of the various types of auger bits. It's also important to note that the twist style auger bits aren't the cure all . Either style tends to split narrow wood, usually when entered near an end. In some cases, a center bit or sometimes a spoon bit is a better choice. Auger bits were really designed more for the general carpenter than the fine cabinetmaker. Still, they are important in any shop, especially for their speed during use boring holes. I've got around 3 sets plus extras of RJ's and Irwins, and have sold four or more assembled sets of the same. I've never really noticed a difference between the two types during use, except that occasionally a fine screw will slip in softer wood, and when that happens, you ain't going nowhere. More important to your end results is simply the bits condition when you find them. Don't pass up on a cheaper set of Irwins in "new" condition for an expensive set of RJ's in the 3 tiered box that have contacted an unskilled sharpener's file. At garage sales, I try to avoid buying unless under a buck and in nice condition. Last season I think that I just about passed on all bits except a $20 Irwin boxed set, but only because most were never used. My set hanging up is all Irwins, and I do keep them honed and they get used. The results are good, so I've never felt the need to reach for the RJs. Walter, who planed a figured Cherry board to glass smooth yesterday with a simple sharp 5 1/2C, and didn't need to reach for anything exotic. ++++ End of thread 25531 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25532 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58833 (thread 25532) ---- From: Michael Horgan Date: 1999-03-02 23:42:00 Subject: Olive wood This came up on theForge mailing list. I just knew there'd be some interest. On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 11:16:57 -0700, Lyle A. Knox wrote: >If you, or anybody you know, would be interested in having large >quantities of olive wood, let me know. Since there's a near monopoly on >olive packing in the US and most packers are importing raw olives for >less than they're willing to pay US growers, we've decided to push out >43 acres of 60 year old olive trees. Some of these trees are 4-5 feet >in diameter, so there's going to be one hellacious lot of wood. I have >no idea how olive carves or works, but it's going to go for firewood >elsewise. Let me know of any interest. This is going to happen in the >next couple months. Lyle A. Knox Please contact Lyle at the above address if you're interested. That kind of old-growth olive going for firewood is blasphemous! Michael D. Horgan ICQ#10736574 lughaid@p... http://members.aol.com/lughaid/ ---- Start of Message 58840 (thread 25532) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-03-03 00:54:00 Subject: Re: Olive wood Judging from some of this stuff it looks like olive carves and turns ok and can have some really nice grain http://www.jerusalemexport.com/page12.html. Has anyone actually ever used it? Maybe we need to organize an olive-o-rama ;^) Dan Michael Horgan wrote: > This came up on theForge mailing list. I just knew there'd be some interest. > > On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 11:16:57 -0700, Lyle A. Knox wrote: > > >If you, or anybody you know, would be interested in having large > >quantities of olive wood, let me know. Since there's a near monopoly on > >olive packing in the US and most packers are importing raw olives for > >less than they're willing to pay US growers, we've decided to push out > >43 acres of 60 year old olive trees. Some of these trees are 4-5 feet > >in diameter, so there's going to be one hellacious lot of wood. I have > >no idea how olive carves or works, but it's going to go for firewood > >elsewise. Let me know of any interest. This is going to happen in the > >next couple months. > > Lyle A. Knox > > Please contact Lyle at the above address if you're > interested. That kind of old-growth olive going for firewood is > blasphemous! > > Michael D. Horgan ICQ#10736574 > lughaid@p... > http://members.aol.com/lughaid/ > > -- ---- Start of Message 58842 (thread 25532) ---- From: John R Mudd Date: 1999-03-03 01:02:00 Subject: Re: Olive wood > Has > anyone actually ever used it? Maybe we need to organize an olive-o-rama ;^) Old post from my personal OT archive. I chopped the names of the orginal posters out. --- >The result of all this is I've got a fair amount of olive, in the form of >branch/trunk sections 4-10" diameter and varying lengths, and I can't see >using it all myself. If you're in the area, you can have some for the >asking. Probably good for small stuff, turning, etc. (I've sealed the >ends, but you get to debark it, slice it, and dry it yourself :^) As I live >close to Old Tools in Santa Monica, if anyone's coming that way Saturday and >wants some, drop me a note and we'll arrange a handoff. > >I've never used, let alone tried to dry, olive, but I've seen a few smaller >pieces made out of it. It's nice stuff, dense and very fine grained. The >sapwood is cream/tan, and the heartwood is figured with darker browns and >black lines in a marbled effect. (Though there's not a whole lot of >heartwood in these pieces). Perhaps others with more experience can comment. I've got some olive drying in my garage (from an annoying tree in my front yard that just started dropping this year's crop of several bazillion olives all over my yard, the side walk, etc). Here's a few things I've learned along the way: - olive wood doesn't split well even when green...use a saw to cut it into whatever size/shape you want. Using a froe is a waste of time on this stuff. - once dry and planed, it's smoother than glass! I was shocked the first time I ran a smoothing plane across a chunk of it (changed my attitude quite a bit about this wood). - the bark is super easy to pull off _ONLY_ when the wood is freshly cut! If you let the wood dry very much at all, the bark feels like it's glued on with the best adhesive money could buy! If you haven't debarked the stuff YOU want to use, I suggest you do it quickly...or you'll be planing/grinding it off later and swearing at yourself for not knowing this sooner. :-) - olive trees put their branches out in opposing pairs (one branch on one side, the other branch is 180 degrees away). The next set of branches is VERY close and is 90 degrees from the prior pair. This means that small pieces have knots EVERYWHERE. - the wood around the knots LOVES to tear out during planing (did I mention there are knots EVERYWHERE?). Set your plane for a super thin cut and take your time...the finish you'll get is worth the extra effort! - the young branches look a lot like willow...very long, very thin, very slight taper...you could probably make willow-style furniture from them (although you may have to do half-scale/kid furniture since most of the branches are less than 3/4" thick). I'm betting this stuff would make a great spokeshave body, tool handles, etc...anywhere that you need really smooth wood and don't care that there's zero contrast between the early wood and the late wood (i.e.: don't bother trying to see the grain in the resulting pieces...it's nearly invisible). I'll eventually prove this one way or the other (when the stuff I have dries a bit more and when I get a couple of projects that are ahead of it done so they're out of the way). I've got a piece of it, with the bark still on, in use as a handle for a large file. Just take a branch that's about the right diameter, drill a hole in one end that's about the width of the middle of the file's tang, chamfer the ends (to avoid splitting once it's dry) and slip the file into the hole. The bark is pretty smooth and wears VERY nicely. I picked this approach up from Dave Burnard after a shop visit a couple of years ago (the handles look really cool too...lots of "character" to them). I think this stuff will make great mallet heads as well (I'm using a couple of smallish branches with the bark removed as a simple mallet for adjusting wooden planes). A friend of mine was removing an olive tree and offered it to me. Naturally, I jumped at the chance...but it turned out his gardener yanked it out and disposed of it before he could get back to tell him I wanted it. I would've had plenty to share otherwise (I do still owe a decent piece to a certain celeb on this list and haven't forgetten...honest...it's not dry enough to mail yet, really). :-) ---- Start of Message 58845 (thread 25532) ---- From: "Brian L. Pennington" Date: 1999-03-02 20:01:00 Subject: Re: Olive wood Wish I had more in my meager wood stockpile. I used olive for some smallish turnings when I lived in San Jose, CA and found a local source who occasionally had some available. Very nice turning materiel, however, it seemed to have a problem with internal checking which proved frustrating on more than one occasion. The sizes available were usually rather small but the figure and color of the heartwood would always draw my eye and often there was great figure in the sapwood as well. Also you better like the smell of olives. I have a pen I turned a year and a half ago and it still has the scent of olive although not nearly as strong it was originally. Brian Pennington Manhattan, KS ---- Start of Message 58852 (thread 25532) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-03-03 04:25:00 Subject: Re: Olive wood At 07:54 PM 3/2/99 -0500, Daniel Indrigo wrote: >Judging from some of this stuff it looks like olive carves and turns ok and can >have some really nice grain http://www.jerusalemexport.com/page12.html. Has >anyone actually ever used it? Maybe we need to organize an olive-o-rama ;^) > Once, (not in the US), I had a job making souvenirs out of olive wood. It's a fun wood. It's very dense with wonderful figures in the grain. Olive trees grow very slowly and do a lot of twisting in the process (at least the ones we used). It's all but impossible to find a piece with anything like straight grain and its hard to find big pieces without defects. I would think in terms of jewelry boxes. Adam ---- Start of Message 58858 (thread 25532) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-03-02 15:10:00 Subject: Re: Olive wood I can't comment on quality of wood, but in Bethlehem (as in "O little town") there's a whole tourist industry making sculptures and boxes in olive-wood. They were cheap and good. Trouble is, the cheap ones weren't good and .... BugBear. ---- Start of Message 58865 (thread 25532) ---- From: "Rodgers Charles" Date: 1999-03-03 14:17:00 Subject: Re: Olive Wood GGs: I was stationed in Spain (US Navy) from '67-'70 and again from '81-'86. Winters were mild (I only recall seeing frost on the car once), so the heat from the big, centrally located fireplace was adequate. A load of olive firewood (~ 4 cu. yds.) ran me about US$100. As a result of urban sprawl, they were turning olive orchards into suburbs. That stuff was dense, hard, and "gnarled". I got it already cut and can't imagine trying to do it with hand tools. Think of a compressed, dried, bowl of spaghetti and you get the idea of the grain. As mentioned in another thread, Spain is noticeably lacking of forest. The story goes that, during Roman times, a squirrel could travel from the Pyrenees to Gibralter without touching the ground. Not so today. They did make at least a couple of attempts to re-forest. Back in the 1800s, the Duque of SanLucar (I think that was the guy), who "owned" a lot of Andalucia planted several million pine saplings. There is a park outside of SanLucar that still has the original plantings and they are pretty impressive stands of pine. We also had a couple in our front yard that, because of their size, led me to believe they were part of the original plantings. I suppose that attempt was moderately successful. The other great idea was to plant eucalyptus. Naturally, this has choked out a lot of the pines, and has become a problem. They are invasive, dirty, and suck up all the available water, to the detriment of anything else around. On the Naval Base, they were removing eucalyptus and it was free for the taking. It burns hot and fast, but was ideal for getting the olive wood going. With a nice, hot fire of three or four chunks of eucalyptus going, I would add a couple pieces of olive. If you were careful and kept the fire well-tended, it would burn for several hours. An occasional stick of eucalyptus was needed, tho. I would add one or two small pieces of eucaplyptus, bank another two or three of olive, and it would burn all night giving off a nice, even heat. Great stuff, that olive wood! Oh yeah, there was a small trade in olive wood souvenirs. I think we still have a couple of them around. I have a great olive wood back scratcher I picked up in Mallorca. I never saw any olive trees that could produce a board large enough for anything other than a small jewelry box, but that's just what I saw. YMMV The cork orchards in Extremadura and around central Portugal were interesting places, too. If you're ever in Lisbon, take in the carriage museum. "Amazing" is an understatement. Even my pre-teen daughter was impressed by the place (my 15 y/o son decided to wait outside and watch the girls). Charlie Rodgers Clinton, Maryland ---- Start of Message 58867 (thread 25532) ---- From: jgbaron@u... Date: 1999-03-03 14:36:00 Subject: Re: Olive wood >If you, or anybody you know, would be interested in having large >quantities of olive wood, let me know. I believe olive wood is good for making wind instruments, like recorders, etc. Maybe Trevor Robinson can weigh in with some authority on this? Regards, Joe _______________________________________________________ Joseph G. Baron Internet: jgbaron@u... ---- Start of Message 58875 (thread 25532) ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 1999-03-03 15:33:00 Subject: Re: Olive wood Hi, All I have a log of olive wood that I retrieved from a pile of firewood in southern France. I have made several things from it and am enthusiastic about its workability and beauty -- just one advice, though. It does not take well to most finishes. Resin keeps exuding and softening or pushing off coatings. A penetrating oil finish is OK; but for a shiny, varnish-type finish the only thing I have found to hold back the resin is several coats of spray lacquer. Trevor Robinson ---- Start of Message 58880 (thread 25532) ---- From: Carl W Muhlhausen Date: 1999-03-03 15:49:00 Subject: Re: Olive wood Michael Horgan wrote: > > This came up on theForge mailing list. I just knew there'd be some interest. > > On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 11:16:57 -0700, Lyle A. Knox wrote: > > >If you, or anybody you know, would be interested in having large > >quantities of olive wood, let me know. Since there's a near monopoly on > >olive packing in the US and most packers are importing raw olives for > >less than they're willing to pay US growers, we've decided to push out > >43 acres of 60 year old olive trees. Some of these trees are 4-5 feet > >in diameter, so there's going to be one hellacious lot of wood. I have > >no idea how olive carves or works, but it's going to go for firewood > >elsewise. Let me know of any interest. This is going to happen in the > >next couple months. > > Lyle A. Knox > > Please contact Lyle at the above address if you're > interested. That kind of old-growth olive going for firewood is > blasphemous! > I'll contact this guy directly, but I suspect he's out west. Somebody please make sure this doesn't turn into firewood. I've only worked with olive wood once, but it's wonderful stuff. Check out the coffee table at my Web site. Carl ---- Start of Message 58921 (thread 25532) ---- From: Martin Gardner Date: 1999-03-04 00:50:00 Subject: Re: Olive Wood I thought I remembered a furniture use for olive wood, and I did; archane, but hey, what's a liberal education for? There was a young olive growing within the precincts of the house, in full vigor, and about as thick as a bearing-post. I built my room around this with strong walls of stone and a roof to cover them, and I made the doors strong and well-fitting. Then I cut off the top boughs of the olive tree and left the stump standing. This I dressed roughly from the root upwards and then worked with carpenter's tools well and skilfully, straightening my work by drawing a line on the wood, and making it into a bed-prop. I then bored a hole down the middle, and made it the center-post of my bed, at which I worked till I had finished it, inlaying it with gold and silver; after this I stretched a hide of crimson leather from one side of it to the other. Homer - The Odyssey [XXIII:around 200, Samuel Butler's translation] Martin Gardner Venice CA ---- Start of Message 58942 (thread 25532) ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 1999-03-04 11:00:00 Subject: Re: Olive wood Hi, All I posted this yesterday, but it has not shown up. I picked a good sized olive log from a firewood pile in southern France years ago and have gradually used it up for various things -- including, as Joe suggested, an alto recorder. It is beautiful wood, turns well, and finishes smoothly. Thin panels of it are used for the instrument panels of expensive Italian cars. The only real problem I found is getting any finish to stay on it. Resin keeps oozing out and will soften or push off most varnish-type coatings. A penetrating oil is OK for awhile, but the resin keeps coming through it and dulling the surface. The only thing I've found to work is several coats of spray lacquer. Others may have other solutions. Trevor Robinson ++++ End of thread 25532 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25533 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58834 (thread 25533) ---- From: Gary Roberts Date: 1999-03-02 04:24:00 Subject: In honor of Richard Crane It struck me that with the passing of the hat from Richard Crane to a new auctioneer, the last of the breed will retire. Richard is surely the most known name in the tool business and the longest lasting, if not the first, major tool auctioneer (I believe he was the first?). His love of the material added to his folksy humor and his love of his work resulted in an experience not to be missed. His was the first tool auction I ever attended and it thoroughly infected me with the bug. This April will be the last auction at which he officiates. I would like to pass along to Richard and his cohorts any thoughts that we have concerning his tenur as the grand old man of the tool auction world. Send me a brief paragraph or two. I'll assemble what is written and pass your thoughts along to Richard. Gary Roberts Boston, MA...Antique tools, Art Pottery, Hong Kong cinema, what else is there? ++++ End of thread 25533 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25534 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58835 (thread 25534) ---- From: Steve Clark Date: 1999-03-03 00:02:00 Subject: FS: try again Hi Folks: I accidentally posted this sale as a "re:" message yesterday and caused a lttle confusion. So here it is again. Hi Galoots: I'm trying to rid myself of duplicate planes and keep my total in the two digit range. OLDTOOL terms if you have a bio posted. SOLD 1. type 17 WWII Stanley #5 1/2 -- 75-80% japaning, everything looks original, unchipped and unbroken hardwood on both ends have a nice handworn patina, heavy casting $75 2. Stanley #191 -- pat date 6-7-10, SW cutter, has depth adj. and knicker, looks like someone tried to help the couple of spots that had lost japaning by touching a little black paint on, still a nice rabbet plane $60 3. Stanley # 190 -- Stanley Rule and Level Co cutter with approx 3/4" meat left, no knicker or depth adj, otherwise good $40 4.Witherby socket chisels -- 6 chisels with what looks to be butt (appears to be maple with dark wooded head) handles, most of them have a sprinkling of light pitting, length runs from 7"-11 1/2" ; widths are 1 1/2" (2), 3/4" (2), 1/2", and 1/4" $85 5. Gage #4 pre-Stanley transitional plane -- beautiful tote and knob, beechwood has a few checks, otherwise a beautiful plane to use or ... whatever $80 6. Stanley 608 Bedrock jointer -- my big baby, type 5, G+ condition, beautiful rosewood tote and knob, japaning 90%+, $250 thanks a hundred, Steve Clark Madison AL ++++ End of thread 25534 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25535 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58838 (thread 25535) ---- From: Datoolfool@a... Date: 1999-03-03 00:09:00 Subject: Louisana Galoots? Anybody lurking in the Baton Rouge area? ++++ End of thread 25535 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25536 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58841 (thread 25536) ---- From: FrankSronce Date: 1999-03-03 00:56:00 Subject: FS: Books 3/99 (Reduced) Selling extra copies of the following books to feed my OT habit. OT terms apply. Didn't sell last time, so I am reducing the price. WATSON, Aldren: HAND TOOLS, THEIR WAYS AND WORKINGS; hardcover; 416 pages; FIRST EDITION. Copyright 1982. IMHO, this is Watson's best book. No longer available in hardback. (He was also the author of "Country Furniture" and several other galootish books.) Great drawings illustrate how to use just about any hand tool you might have, even the drawings for replacement saw handles, plans for other tools, etc. New condition with following exception - someone (probably a book store) put a black mark on the bottom of the pages (i.e., with the book closed, a magic marker mark was made from the front to the back). This mark does not show up on the faces of the pages, just underneath with be book closed, and remember, it is a first edition. [$30.00 plus postage] WATSON, Aldren: HAND TOOLS, THEIR WAYS AND WORKINGS; hardcover; 416 pages; FIRST EDITION. Copyright 1982. (Same as above, except this one does not have a dust cover.) [$20.00 plus postage] LANGSNER, Drew: COUNTRY WOODCRAFT; hardcover; 304 pages, Copyright 1978. Subtitled A Handbook of Traditional Woodworking Techniques and Projects. Includes: Basic tools, the workshop (sawbuck, shaving horses, bow saws, workbench, spring-pole lathe), agricultural implements (including the bull tongue plow and others), household crafts and furnishings (broom tying, spoons, dining bench), and much more. A neat galoot book. According to Amazon Books, this one is out of print. Dust cover a little ragged on the top and bottom edges (back only). [$15.00 plus postage] FINE WOODWORKING TECHNIQUES: Volume 3. Hardcover; 232 pages. Copyright 1981. Contains all the technical articles published in 1979, FWW issues #14 through #19. Good condition, but no dust cover. [$15.00 plus postage] Frank (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ++++ End of thread 25536 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25537 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58844 (thread 25537) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-03-03 01:40:00 Subject: RE: Ebay The last dozen or so tools I've purchased (outside the local fleamarkets) were purchased on ebay. For the most part they were not available on FMM or the porch. The only one I can remember seeing in oldtools I got cheaper and in better condition on ebay. For me the overriding factor in this are the pictures. On ebay I can get a pretty good idea of the condition of the tool I'm interested in. On the porch I must rely on a very short text description (if any) that, given the lack of any other input, invariably sounds better than the tool actually is. I'm not criticising, there's just too much room to dream. I'm pretty sure that ebay is doing a lot to set the prices in oldtools, regardless of other factors. Also I have not had any bad experiences on ebay (though in one case I thought I might be getting into one); their feedback forum is very useful in this respect. I figure that there is probably some abuse of this system but overall it gives me a pretty good idea of the reliability of the seller. This form of feedback is also missing on the porch. A final thing : I don't mind talk of ebay on the porch. I spend quite a bit of time browsing the tools on ebay and I imagine a lot of other Galoots do the same. What I don't like, and would not like to see appear, are posts to the effect that the seller has listed something on ebay. I've seen a lot of such posts in the newsgroups and they just rub me the wrong way. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 58846 (thread 25537) ---- From: "David Barnett" Date: 1999-03-03 02:29:00 Subject: Re: Ebay Paul Pedersen wrote: >The last dozen or so tools I've purchased (outside the local fleamarkets) >were purchased on ebay. For the most part they were not available on >FMM or the porch. The only one I can remember seeing in oldtools I got >cheaper and in better condition on ebay. I don't get out much -- flea markets and tag sales aren't in the picture -- so eBay fills that gap. I've bought a few tools on eBay, and for the most part, been satisfied. >For me the overriding factor in this are the pictures. On ebay I can >get a pretty good idea of the condition of the tool I'm interested in. >On the porch I must rely on a very short text description (if any) that, >given the lack of any other input, invariably sounds better than the >tool actually is. I'm not criticising, there's just too much room to >dream. I like the pictures, too, and several oldtools sellers do a pretty good job of posting photos. My take is a bit different. I know my limitations where old tools are concerned and still I'm amazed at how poorly many tools are presented and how few ebay sellers know what they're offering. Some are great, sure. Others are just pathetic and it does little good to ask questions. Even with pics, you often have to guess the profile of a moulding plane shown in all perspectives except the sole. So I'm pretty happy knowing I can buy from the porch and that most purchases will meet expectations, or in most instances, surpass them. I've had very good FMM experiences and no bad ones. In fact, my most recent porch purchases from several dealers have been excellent, both in quality and price. And as for price -- I'm only too happy to pay what the MofA asks when I ask the MofA to get me that relic I spontaneously crave. I know what I'll get will be clearly and accurately represented and that if he doesn't have it on hand, he'll probably find it a lot faster than I will myself. His price reflects knowledge, experience, and considerable procurement costs -- all of which I lack. Running around getting good stuff and then selling the 'good stuff cheap' ain't cheap. For me, that beats ebay any day. I don't mind paying for expertise and quality. That's good value for me. >A final thing : I don't mind talk of ebay on the porch. I spend quite >a bit of time browsing the tools on ebay and I imagine a lot of other >Galoots do the same. I don't either, as long as it's about the tools on ebay. How else would I have been tipped about those fashionable blacksmith's thongs? I love blacksmith's thongs. In fact, I'm thinging the Anvil Choruth ath I'm writing thith. David Barnett Northampton, MA ---- Start of Message 58847 (thread 25537) ---- From: "William H. Fissell" Date: 1999-03-03 01:13:00 Subject: Re: Ebay Galoots, I would have to echo Paul's comments. I like buying from galoots, and the vast majority of my tools come from the MofA and a lurker. My sense is that the quality of tools traded by galoots is much higher than those sold on ebay, based on purchases from MofA, Jim Cook, I think I bought once from Bill Ghio, and from the nameless lurker. The tools I have gotten from ebay tend to be in worse condition. This includes a Siegley jack, a Siegley Plow, a 5 1/2C, recently resold to a galoot, and an 8. I also have been very careful to monitor the bid process if I mention an auction in this distribution list. the most recent was the #1 copy (or whatever it was) that I asked about. There were 17 bids before I mentioned it, and 17 after, for about 36 hours. I conclude that my mentioning an auction has zero effect on the bidding process. What I do notice on ebay is some bizarre price shenanigans, usually related to last minute bidding, of which I am absolutely guilty. The theory, for those of you who don't do this, is that you let a tool loaf along until the last few minutes, and then bid as much as you'd be willing to pay. This reduces the odds that someone will outbid your high bid, because they might not be watching the final minutes of the auction. I've been beat out more times than I've won. The stems from the apparent observation that people don't bid their top bid right away. They bid about as much as they think the tool will bring. I don't have a good sense yet on what sort of pressure ebay exerts on tool prices. In theory, a tool should never ever go for as much money on ebay as it will elsewhere, because on ebay you can't handle the tool first and inspect it for problems. On Oldtools, or at a flea or an auction, you can. I suspect that for truly rare tools, ebay exerts upward pressue, beacsue the tool is advertised to more people than at a flea or an auction. I have started compiling a list of prices realized on various Stanley planes on ebay, and am started at the results in some cases. For example, #45s are more common by a factor of almost 2 than are #4s. I haven't rigged up a parser to grab lists of tools and prices and deposit them in a database, yet. I'll probably write a perl script or something. I would imagine that displaying tools prices as a histogram would be most useful-- so you can see what a beater #1 goes for, and what a MIB #1 goes for, and so on. I'll probably continue to buy from ebay for tools I know well in advance and are not expensive. I bid 160.00 for a beater 62 (anyone know a welder?), but that was the limit of what I'll bid for anything on ebay. the sort of oldtools posts on ebay that probably are objectionable si when someone has posted a tool that is mislabelled or that he/she hasn't realized is valuable, and only a few people have noticed whatever small detail there is about it to make it valuable, ie being type 1. A post here will then might result in a feeding frenzy. This behavior would be analagous to walking up to a table at a flea, finding a hidden gem, annoucing to everyone that there's a 212 there for $20.00, .... and then walking away for a while. VERY un darwinian. There's a bunch of stuff to be seen if you electronically enhance the pictures, and I could probably poop on a couple of parades right now if I chose to. I don't. What I *haven't* seen and would like to is cooperative bidding, so that two galoots don't bid each other up. I have been known to email a galoot or two and ask to trade high bids, specifically so we don't drive up our prices, only to have one of us lose. usually there's a gentleman's agreement not to immediately rebid over the other guy. It's also usually moot because we both get outbid by someone else. just my overblown 0.02. I'll be hiding in the ICU for a month starting on Thursday, so you'll all be spared my blather for a month. Bill Fissell Galoot in doctors clothing ---- Start of Message 58849 (thread 25537) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 1999-03-03 02:48:00 Subject: Re: Ebay One (unnamed) galoot said: >What I *haven't* seen and would like to is cooperative bidding, so that >two galoots don't bid each other up. I have been known to email a galoot >or two and ask to trade high bids, specifically so we don't drive up our >prices, only to have one of us lose. usually there's a gentleman's >agreement not to immediately rebid over the other guy. It's also usually >moot because we both get outbid by someone else. For what it's worth, this is known as "bid rigging" and is a criminal violation of the antitrust laws, if the G-Men find out and care enough to prosecute. I'd stay away from it, if I were you, unless you relish the prospect of having to hire a lawyer to try to get a plea bargain instead of serving time or paying a huge fine. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA avogadro@b... (also avogadro@w...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 58871 (thread 25537) ---- From: Loganftp@a... Date: 1999-03-03 15:14:00 Subject: Re: Ebay For the love of God can we please not do this again ! - ever? Thank you Dave Tobbe Michigaloot - Just Say tmPL - Just Say NO! ++++ End of thread 25537 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25538 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58850 (thread 25538) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-03-03 04:05:00 Subject: Buying tools online - was: Disposition of collection and Ebay > Ebay is a good thing for sellers, but not a very good thing >for buyers (at least buyers of user tools). > >I've bought things on Ebay, with mixed results. To some extent you're never >sure exactly what you're buying 'til you get it. A well informed seller is >not the norm on Ebay. With my regular trusted tool dealers the whole process >is a lot safer (or at least less nerve-wracking) for me. > I live in Northern New Mexico and there isn't much out here. For myself, access to tools through the internet is very important and ebay is a real resource. I have bought several old tools through ebay and so far I have had good results and gotten very good values. It is true, you have to guess a bit about the condition but to my mind this just means that you should set your max low. I have made several attempts to purchase tools through dealers listed at the Electronic Neanderthal site. Two of these transactions produced very satisfactory results but the other three were "disappointing". So there is some risk here too. Now, in time I will learn who are the reliable dealers and avoid the others but I notice there are regular dealers at ebay too. Of course I prefer to buy from someone in this list. I feel I am dealing with a friend who has a common interestand this, by itself, is worth something. As for the increased competition driving up the prices and making tools inaccessible, I think the economics are a bit more complicated than this. As the price goes up people are more motivated to sell and also to go and hunt out old tools to sell. If it were'nt for the energetic efforts of 'greedy' tools dealers, many of our old tools might still be rusting away in someone's basement waiting for that fateful spring cleaning when they get hauled out to the dump. Adam ++++ End of thread 25538 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25539 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58851 (thread 25539) ---- From: Hugh & Barbara Brown Date: 1999-03-03 03:17:00 Subject: Lawyerspeak (was: What's up with MOFA and Stanley) At 3:28 PM -0600 3/2/99, Flowers, Curt wrote: >Stanley only requested that Patrick cease and desist (why do >lawyers need to use two words when one will do?) > I heard a lecture the other day about this. It seems the habit of using two words where one will do stems from the time of the Norman conquest, when the population of England spake two different languages. The conquering nobility spoke French and the Anglo-Saxons what is now known as Old English. To be clear, the lawyers started saying it twice: once in Frech and once in English (or Saxon, or whatever it was called then). Lawyers are a conservative lot, particularly with words. If they indulge in a spree of creative writing, it may not stand up in court. Sounded good to me, but I still don't understand why your will is always the last will even if its the first and is replaced later :-) --Hugh ++++ End of thread 25539 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25540 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58857 (thread 25540) ---- From: "John Solie" Date: 1999-03-02 15:10:00 Subject: AWW show in Ontario, Calif. GG, Pardon the bandwidth, but I was wondering if any SoCal Galoots were planning on going to the AWW show this weekend. I'm planning on going Friday sporting my Stealth Galoot hat. ============================================================= John Solie - jsolie@i... http://www.inland.net/~jsolie ============================================================= ++++ End of thread 25540 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25541 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58861 (thread 25541) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-03 13:21:00 Subject: Adjuster Oddity GGs: Was working on my Cabinetmaker website adjuster FAQ and thought this might interest others. Every wonder why you have to back off so much when you change your adjuster direction on a Bailey style plane? Why do you think its that way? (Si Paddy, I know Mi Vida Loca) I may be way offbase but submitted for your approval.... Lights Out, Rick Garza inside the wheel and no adjustment range lost it looked workable. I quickly found out that this fixed only part of the problem. I had achieved zero backlash only to discover that I still needed over a complete wheel turn to get it to change direction! I could move the yoke lever perfectly but the adjuster slot on the chip breaker was too big. The clearance between the yoke lever and the slot was huge. I checked many others and realized that it was made that way on purpose and not just normal wear. Looking now at how all the parts fit together I realized that this was a clever way to mask the 'wear' that would normally develop between all the moving parts the yoke lever contacted. Subtle. If you had made everything with the normal operating clearances small, how far you would turn the wheel to switch directions would become second nature, and you would feel almost constant pressure. Naturally as all these parts wore, how far to switch would change. This would be a slow process probably taking many years, and you would adapt without probably every noticing anything. But if you owned more than one plane, each would wear differently depending on how long you owned it, how often it was used, lever cap pressure, etc. Switching from one to the other, the first thing you would notice is the difference in the adjusters and one of the planes would feel "wrong". No doubt the one with the most wear. When you have to turn the wheel as far as a full turn, its almost impossible to pick up small changes. You simply drop into the habit of turning till you feel pressure again. ---- Start of Message 58864 (thread 25541) ---- From: "William H. Fissell" Date: 1999-03-03 12:29:00 Subject: Re: Adjuster Oddity Rick, I may be stating the obvious, so forgive me. Could it be that the reason for the backlash is so that you can back off the adjuster nut once you've gotten the right set? The teleology is that one does this so that when some ham-handed goober like me slams an innocent #5 into a piece of oak, the adjuster fork doesn't have to bear any of the brunt of the blow. Given that it's cast, not stamped, any significant trauma could and would shatter it. DAMHIKT. I actually do back off on the adjuster after setting the set. You may have to crank the lever cap pressure way down (up?) to keep the iron from sliding, which may in turn crack the mouth if the frog is set too far back (DAMHIKT... my poor poor #3) Anyway, I think the backlash, if unintended in the design, helps keep the tool alive through the slings and arrows of outrageous ham-fisted yoyos like me. Bill Fissell ---- Start of Message 58866 (thread 25541) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-03 14:24:00 Subject: Re: Adjuster Oddity >Could it be that the reason for the backlash is so that you can back off >the adjuster nut once you've gotten the right set? But why a whole turn? Isnt that excessive? >The teleology is that one does this so that when some ham-handed >gooberlike me >slams an innocent #5 into a piece of oak, the adjuster fork doesn't have >to bear any of the brunt of the blow. Given that it's cast, not >stamped, any significant trauma could and would shatter it. DAMHIKT. > Hmm. See your point. I am usually careful where & how I set my planes down. And I start out with no set and work into my depth. They were hard to come by and it makes me naturally more cautious with them. That wouldnt of been the case when they were new and plentiful. The kind of force it would take to move the iron the full .020 that 1 wheel turn is would simply depend on how much lever cap pressure there is. The odds are that most of the time nothing bad would happen. But you need only once at the right angle (oops) and the yoke is definitely the weakest part of the adjuster system and history. This would have been discovered after the Bailey frogs were in wide use, when no matter the odds, it could have been happening often enough to get a fix. I wonder if anybody can verify that the earliest ones behaved the same? >I actually do back off on the adjuster after setting the set. You may >have to crank the lever cap pressure way down (up?) to keep the iron >from sliding, which may in turn crack the mouth if the frog is set too >far back (DAMHIKT... my poor poor #3) This is the worst aspect of Bailey's lever cap design. You never really lock the cutter down firmly to the bed. The kind of pressure it takes can actually crack a frog or at least bow it pretty bad. I wonder if originally the idea was to make your set with the lever cap unclamped and then when clamped would eliminate slip. Couldnt have worked that way if you intended trial cuts. Never mind. >Anyway, I think the backlash, if unintended in the design, helps keep >the tool alive through the slings and arrows of outrageous ham-fisted >yoyos like me. > > >Bill Fissell Good points. Maybe we will never know the whole story. Reverse engineering can be akin to trying to explain mysteries. Take for example all that Nazca plain stuff in Peru. Strange shapes made with boulders that can only be seen by the air, at least a thousand years old. Over the last 30 yrs we have had everything from Von Danikens aliens to religious explanations. Recently they discovered they knew how to make hot air balloons back then and the whole thing was most likely AirInca. The simplest answers often are the right ones..... Rick Garza ---- Start of Message 58870 (thread 25541) ---- From: "William H. Fissell" Date: 1999-03-03 13:47:00 Subject: Re: Adjuster Oddity Rick Garza wrote: > > >Could it be that the reason for the backlash is so that you can back > off > >the adjuster nut once you've gotten the right set? > > But why a whole turn? Isnt that excessive? > No, not for me. :-) > > Given that it's cast, not > >stamped, any significant trauma could and would shatter it. DAMHIKT. > > > Hmm. See your point. I am usually careful where & how I set my planes > down. And I start out with no set and work into my depth. They were > hard to come by and it makes me naturally more cautious with them. > That wouldnt of been the case when they were new and plentiful. Yeah, I'm careful too. I also have a piece of 8/4 curly oak that no matter how careful I am, once in a while something will hop up and presto, my set is gone. > > The kind of force it would take to move the iron the full .020 that 1 > wheel turn is would simply depend on how much lever cap pressure there > is. The odds are that most of the time nothing bad would happen. But > you need only once at the right angle (oops) and the yoke is > definitely the weakest part of the adjuster system and history. > > This would have been discovered after the Bailey frogs were in wide > use, when no matter the odds, it could have been happening often > enough to get a fix. I wonder if anybody can verify that the earliest > ones behaved the same? > Well..... not to be rude, but what you are fixing is the fix itself. The original L. Bailey adjuster knobs were in two pieces, so that you could adjust it to take up the backlash. He stopped doing that, probably not due to expense of machining, but also because of the shattered yoke theory. I also have a few cap irons where the slot for the adjuster is munged, again, due to the sliding problem. I suspect that this problem was identified, and the fix was to put some slop in the adjuster. > >from sliding, which may in turn crack the mouth if the frog is set > too > This is the worst aspect of Bailey's lever cap design. You never > really lock the cutter down firmly to the bed. The kind of pressure it > takes can actually crack a frog or at least bow it pretty bad. You've given me a new goal-- to break a frog. I've only trashed mouths before. I actually don't agree that the frog is a weak design. I think it's elegant and robust. The mouth itslef is weak, and I suspect that one should keep the frog forward of the mouth's trailing edge, just to avoid what I have done. There are a lot of mysteries, and I don't mean to denigrate *any* of what you have done, especially since I ain't seen it and I ain't done it myself. Mystery #1: If Stanley took the trouble to make a skew dado (46) and a skew rabbit block (140), why no full-size skew rabbit or shew jack planes? They bothered to make a 62 and a 164, but didn't take the time to make a skewed plane, besides the #51 shooting-board plane. You could acheive the same effective rake angle (don't get me going on that again) and still have a thick enough frog/mouth to avoid the chipping and cracking seen on the 62s? Pat? Tom? Gonna make us a Skew Jack anytime soon? Mystery #2: Why all the effort to make the Gage self-setting planes? You noted that you start with zero set and work into it, so why make a self-setting plane? More mysteries to come.... thanks, Bill ---- Start of Message 58877 (thread 25541) ---- From: Gerry Kmack Date: 1999-03-03 15:50:00 Subject: Re: Adjuster Oddity At Wednesday 06:47 AM 3/3/99 , William H. Fissell wrote: > >Mystery #1: If Stanley took the trouble to make a skew dado (46) and a >skew rabbit block (140), why no full-size skew rabbit or shew jack >planes? === what about Stanley's #289?? They bothered to make a 62 and a 164, but didn't take the time >to make a skewed plane, besides the #51 shooting-board plane. You could >acheive the same effective rake angle (don't get me going on that again) >and still have a thick enough frog/mouth to avoid the chipping and >cracking seen on the 62s? Pat? Tom? Gonna make us a Skew Jack anytime >soon? === my panel-raising planes are ~jack-sized & they have skewed cutters. > >Mystery #2: Why all the effort to make the Gage self-setting planes? >You noted that you start with zero set and work into it, so why make a >self-setting plane? === I agree - I have not been able to figure out the "advantage" offered by the gage self-set mechanism. My experience: these planes are harder to adjust than the 'classic' Stanley/Bailey design.... my Stanley/Gage #5 has pretty much become shelfware :-( Gerry Kmack / Cave Creek, AZ ---- Start of Message 58878 (thread 25541) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-03 15:57:00 Subject: Re: Adjuster Oddity > >Yeah, I'm careful too. I also have a piece of 8/4 curly oak that no >matter how careful I am, once in a while something will hop up and >presto, my set is gone. Had that happen also. >Well..... not to be rude, but what you are fixing is the fix itself. The >original L. Bailey adjuster knobs were in two pieces, so that you could >adjust it to take up the backlash. Learn something everyday. Didnt know that. Didnt think to check. He stopped doing that, probably not >due to expense of machining, but also because of the shattered yoke >theory. I also have a few cap irons where the slot for the adjuster is >munged, again, due to the sliding problem. I suspect that this problem >was identified, and the fix was to put some slop in the adjuster. > I do believe you are right. You present a strong case. >> >from sliding, which may in turn crack the mouth if the frog is set >> too > >> This is the worst aspect of Bailey's lever cap design. You never >> really lock the cutter down firmly to the bed. The kind of pressure it >> takes can actually crack a frog or at least bow it pretty bad. > >You've given me a new goal-- to break a frog. I've only trashed mouths >before. Take it from me. It will make you sick for a long time afterward, its to be avoided. Yes Paddy, grown men do cry sometimes. > >I actually don't agree that the frog is a weak design. I think it's >elegant and robust. The mouth itslef is weak, and I suspect that one >should keep the frog forward of the mouth's trailing edge, just to avoid >what I have done. > I didnt mean to imply the frog is weak. I agree with you. I was talking about the lever cap and the fact that it pivots around the cap screw. Its basically in the middle of the frog. Theres a natural tendency to overstress the system to make it do something it wasnt meant to do -- for what its meant to do it works extremely well and is quite robust. For a design to last as long as it has, its obviously not "broke". Witness what happens when something leaks. Most people will just tighten it further till the leak stops, not find out the real reason it has started leaking. Rarely, tho is that a real fix. Cutter lock with other types, wooden ones for example spread the pressure more generally over the whole blade. >There are a lot of mysteries, and I don't mean to denigrate *any* of >what you have done, especially since I ain't seen it and I ain't done it >myself. You havent denigrated anybody, and throwing some light my way on a curiosity I've had is hardly offensive.... Mystery #0: Ever wonder why it jumps from a #10 to a 1/4" in standard screws? #12-24's are in all the old handbooks, you can still buy taps,dies, and threaded rod, but you cant find a screw /bolt/nut anywhere. Its the only one gone missing in the standards. Do you know why? I know originally they were used in making boilers. Just kinda odd since the frog uses one(or real close) to mount the rear tab. > >Mystery #1: If Stanley took the trouble to make a skew dado (46) and a >to make a skewed plane, besides the #51 shooting-board plane. You Maybe they would be prone to breakage? The #51 lived on its side, right? With no reason to move it other than in the bed slots? > Mystery #2: Why all the effort to make the Gage self-setting planes? >You noted that you start with zero set and work into it, so why make a >self-setting plane? I figured I was the odd one. Most people would just rehone and expect to keep trucking I imagine...My Gage has zero backlash. Funny what a little rust on the screw will do for you :-) and you dont ever use it. The Gages were neat planes also, but I suspect Stanley just 'folded them in' for biz reasons.... > >More mysteries to come.... Looking forward. I'll save a few and swap ya. Rick Garza ---- Start of Message 58881 (thread 25541) ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 1999-03-03 16:13:00 Subject: Re: Adjuster Oddity In a message dated 3/3/99 6:21:56 AM, rrgarza@f... writes: << ... the yoke is definitely the weakest part of the adjuster system and history. >> There have been at least three yoke designs: 1) the pre-Type 20 cast iron yoke, usually painted black, but occasionally found as a die-cast "white metal" yoke or as a bright-plated cast iron yoke on Type 19s, 2) the Type 20 stamped sheet metal yoke, and 3) the current U.K. die-cast "white metal" yoke, apparently identical in every respect to that mentioned as being found on Type 19s. Of those mentioned above, only the Type 20 stamped sheet metal yokes seem to be fatally flawed. >> This is the worst aspect of Bailey's lever cap design. You never really lock the cutter down firmly to the bed. The kind of pressure it takes can actually crack a frog or at least bow it pretty bad. I wonder if originally the idea was to make your set with the lever cap unclamped and then when clamped would eliminate slip. Couldnt have worked that way if you intended trial cuts. Never mind. >> On an un-modified pre-Type 16 (keyhole type lever cap) model, retracting the iron using the depth adjustment nut usually results in the lever cap backing itself out of full engagement with the lever cap screw, so you have to unlock the lever cap and reset it anyway. Perhaps this was intentional as every unmodified example I've seen, and I own every model from #2 through #8, operates this way. On a few of mine, I have machined a slight countersink such that the taper of the lever cap screw is retained by the matching machined taper (countersink) in the lever cap. I'm not a firm believer in this process, so I have modified a limited number of these Type 13 through Type 15 tools. The #2 and the #5 have been modified; the #2 so slightly that you can't tell without a close inspection, the #5 so greatly that I am embarrassed to mention it. But the modification is effective. ---- Start of Message 58889 (thread 25541) ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 1999-03-03 17:52:00 Subject: Re: Adjuster Oddity In a message dated 3/3/99 7:05:54 AM, whf@a... writes: << ... besides the #51 shooting-board plane ... >> The #51 seems to come manufactured with the sides of the mouth "stop drilled" to avoid cracking at those locations. Of two #51s (these are of different production series) one is stop-drilled on the top and the bottom, while the other is stop-drilled on the top only. This may have something to do with the fundamental weakness of the Type 3 bed design, as the #51 retained the Type 3 frog apparently for it's entire lifetime, while the Type 3 Stanley/Bailey bench planes were relatively short- lived. ---- Start of Message 58891 (thread 25541) ---- From: David Hegedusich Date: 1999-03-03 15:55:00 Subject: Re: Adjuster Oddity In discussing adjusters, Rick Garza said: > Hmm. See your point. I am usually careful where & how I set my planes > down. And I start out with no set and work into my depth. They were > hard to come by and it makes me naturally more cautious with them. > That wouldnt of been the case when they were new and plentiful. I couldn't disagree more. The notion that workers of days gone by did not need to be cautious with their tools, just because they were new and plentiful, is just pure nonsense. These folks relied on their tools to make a living, and could not afford to be abusive with them. Tailed tablesaws and planers are plentiful today, yet I still treat mine carefully, in order to get years of work out of them. David San Antonio, TX ---- Start of Message 58900 (thread 25541) ---- From: "Yarrow, Gary SH" Date: 1999-03-03 21:11:00 Subject: Re: Adjuster Oddity ---------- > Hmm. See your point. I am usually careful where & how I set my planes > down. And I start out with no set and work into my depth. They were > hard to come by and it makes me naturally more cautious with them. > That wouldnt of been the case when they were new and plentiful. I couldn't disagree more. The notion that workers of days gone by did not need to be cautious with their tools, just because they were new and plentiful, is just pure nonsense. These folks relied on their tools to make a living, and could not afford to be abusive with them. ___________________________________________________________________ Not to mention that planes probably cost a heck of a less today (in relative salary terms) than they did then, even if comparing such planes as LN's or such. It was their living, and those tools had to last a long time. Gary ---- Start of Message 58904 (thread 25541) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-03 21:34:00 Subject: Re: Adjuster Oddity David says: >I suppose that a lot of this depends upon what era we are talking about, >as well as the particular trade. Homebuilders of 30 - 40 years ago >probably treated thier tools a bit rougher than cabinetmakers/joiners of >100 years ago. Sure. Hey Dave, toss me that #8 for this flattening this tabletop. :-) Just wait till Im across the street first......Yeah, see where youre coming from. Ok I dumb. Not the first. Guaranteed not be the last. > >> Rick Garza >> Whose Rockets got killed by David's Spurs. > ---- Start of Message 58939 (thread 25541) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-03-04 10:20:00 Subject: RE: Adjuster Oddity ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of ~ William H. ~ Fissell ~ Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 12:29 PM ~ To: rrgarza@f...; oldtools@l... ~ Subject: Re: Adjuster Oddity ~ Could it be that the reason for the backlash is so that you ~ can back off ~ the adjuster nut once you've gotten the right set? Experience shows that the iron can be driven backwards by the planing action, so a final forward feed of the iron is desirable. I've always done this (or at least since I first realised the need) without any disaster to the yoke. ~ The teleology is that one does this so that when some ~ ham-handed goober ~ like me ~ slams an innocent #5 into a piece of oak, the adjuster fork ~ doesn't have ~ to bear any of the brunt of the blow. Given that it's cast, not ~ stamped, any significant trauma could and would shatter it. We've been here before, but it may be useful to reflect that the mechanical lever system is designed so that a small force on the yoke leads to an amplified force on the spur at the other side of the fulcrum. Hence, a large force on the spur leads to a reduced force on the yoke. I suppose that if the lever cap was not firmly adjusted, there would be less friction between the iron and the frog, so more force can be transmitted to the spur. ~ DAMHIKT. However, it would be interesting to have an account of the disaster that lead to a broken yoke. Jeff ---- Start of Message 58968 (thread 25541) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-03-04 16:42:00 Subject: RE: Adjuster Oddity On this topic dear to the heart of any hand plane user, Jeff Gorman wrote: >Experience shows that the iron can be driven backwards by the planing >action, so a final forward feed of the iron is desirable. I've always >done this (or at least since I first realised the need) without any >disaster to the yoke. The practice I adopted as I became a medium serious user of Bailey-type planes (not nearly as long ago as Jeff, to be sure) is when retracting the iron to a desired point for cutting, always advancing the adjuster knob back the other direction until it is just snug, indicating that the "leg" of the Y lever is engaged against the lower edge of the slot in the chipbreaker, thus holding the iron at the setting I am seeking. When advancing the iron, I leave the adjuster wheel in its last position, so the Y lever is engaged snugly, without backing it off. I do this especially with fine sets and finish planing, to keep the shavings at the desired gossamer thickness, rather then having them become invisible as the (unfixed) iron moves ever so slightly up the surface of the frog during planing. My usual technique for getting a fine set on a smoother is to retract the cutter just short of where it will engage the wood, then sliding the plane along the wood while rotating the adjuster wheel as smoothly as I can until that gossamer shaving begins to appear. I then leave the wheel engaged at that point and finish the job at hand. I've never had the force of hitting an obstruction in the wood jolt the iron with such force that it broke or damaged a Y lever yoke, but then again, I haven't been at this for 55 years, and I haven't tried to plane every exotic tropical hardwood in the book. I'm not claiming that it couldn't happen, and if I knew that it was a likely occurance, I would probably alter my habits in response. So I second Jeff's question: Beyond tradition, and "I heard about," and "I was always told," has anyone here actually had a Y lever break or become damaged in his or her hands, while planing? While I'm here, regarding Rick's Magnificent Obsession, the play in the adjuster wheel of every Bailey-type plane I've ever used: It just seems natural and normal to me, resulting from the upper tip ("foot" of the "leg") of the Y lever rotating in an arc, while moving the slot in the chipbreaker/cap iron along a plane. If the tip and the slot were machined to engage without any play, say, when the tip is perpendicular to the slot, then it seems to me that the two elements would bind as the setting was changed so that they were no longer perpendicular to one another. So the fit *has* to be somewhat loose for the system to function as intended. Or not? Finally if blade chatter is a problem, in my limited experience, it is best dealt with by using a thicker iron than the Stanley standard (thanks, Ron!), rather than a futile and risky supertightening of the lever cap screw. Tom Holloway ++++ End of thread 25541 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25542 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58862 (thread 25542) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-03 13:26:00 Subject: Adjuster Oddity GGs: heres the rest. OutofLuck Express ate the rest for some reason when I posted.... Rick Garza To check this out I inserted a few paper wedges inside the chip breaker slots and added rubber O-rings to close up the yoke to adjuster wheel 'slop' on several of my planes. It wasn't zero backlash but it was close enough. Then I used three planes at random and changed the depth of cut each time before I used it. You could sure pick up the differences between them. It felt like you were adjusting three planes. Then I removed the O-rings and wedges and did it over. All three now 'felt' like they adjusted the same way! Real subtle. Its probably lost who designed in this feature for the adjusters. But its there. Maybe its just happened that way, but I doubt it. ++++ End of thread 25542 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25543 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58863 (thread 25543) ---- From: "William H. Fissell" Date: 1999-03-03 11:21:00 Subject: Retraction of earlier, dumb, suggestion; was Re: Ebay Gentle Galoots, I posted this before, but I haven't seen it pop up, so I thoguht I'd repost. I wanted to thank Michael for pointing out my faux pas in recommending something illegal; I actually didn't know that such agreements between individuals were outlawed. I should stick to doctoring, I guess. ANYWAY, I thought I should thank Michael in public, retarct my previous comment about bid rigging, and get the brasso and head towards the spittoon. thanks, all! Bill Fissell sheepish galoot in doctor's clothing ++++ End of thread 25543 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25544 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58868 (thread 25544) ---- From: ralph.brendler@a... (Ralph Brendler) Date: 1999-03-03 14:42:00 Subject: Pizza-wheel gages (was Re: Patented Saw Sets and Mortise Gagues) Mike DeLong asks about a pizza-wheel gage: >Unlike Aaron's, mine does >not have any markings, nor plating, but it does have a rather >large head. The head appears to have been turned with one end, >the marking face, left in a hex-shaped. Like the Stanley #98 it >has two rods, but one is smaller in diameter and shorter in >length. The short rod is a little less than 5/16d by 3-1/4 long >and the large rod is a little less that 3/8d by 8-1/8 long. Both >rods have pizza wheel cutters held on with flat-head machine >screws. The turned hexagonal head is pretty much the norm on these. Several manufacturers made them, and they all used very similar style heads. The giveaway on yours is the different diameter arms-- I've seen several of these, and while not a one has been marked, the style of numbers used in the graduations make me pretty sure they were a Goodell-Pratt product. These are descendants of the original Bartlett's patent gages, but from a somewhat later time. They're certainly nice users, so it's no surprise it's the one you reach for first... ;-) And now a question for the patent-heads out there: Does the original Bartlett's patent cover the pizza wheel cutter, or just the arm locking mechanism? I had always thought it was the latter, but I've recently seen a piece marked with this patent which used normal thumbscrews to hold the rods. Considering most of the competitors' pizza-wheelers came out in the early 1900's (15+ years after the original patent), it makes me wonder if the wheels themselves weren't covered in the patent. ralph ++++ End of thread 25544 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25545 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58869 (thread 25545) ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 1999-03-03 14:49:00 Subject: Re: Ebay and bid-rigging On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Michael D. Sullivan wrote: :>What I *haven't* seen and would like to is cooperative bidding, :For what it's worth, this is known as "bid rigging" and is a criminal :violation of the antitrust laws Yup. In any auction, it's both unethical and illegal. However, there is no law against unilaterally backing-out of bidding if you see a friend there already, which is what I do most of the time. Once in a while I'll send a good-luck note to the pal. There is no implied tit-for-tat, just a reminder that sometimes, ya dig right in and bid against your friends, but sometimes you don't. Paddy - meek bidder, mostly goes away empty-handed ++++ End of thread 25545 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25546 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58872 (thread 25546) ---- From: ralph.brendler@a... (Ralph Brendler) Date: 1999-03-03 15:24:00 Subject: Skewed planes (was Re: Adjuster Oddity) Bill Fissell writes: >Mystery #1: If Stanley took the trouble to make a skew dado (46) and a >skew rabbit block (140), why no full-size skew rabbit or shew jack >planes? They bothered to make a 62 and a 164, but didn't take the time >to make a skewed plane, besides the #51 shooting-board plane. You could >acheive the same effective rake angle (don't get me going on that again) >and still have a thick enough frog/mouth to avoid the chipping and >cracking seen on the 62s? Pat? Tom? Gonna make us a Skew Jack anytime >soon? This has come up before-- think of all the planes that normally come with skewed irons: - rabbet planes - dado planes - fillisters - shoot planes - panel raisers - hollows and rounds What do all of these have in common? They work against a fence or batten! In this configuration you cannot change the angle of the plane without losing contact with the fence. *That* is why they are offered with skews. If you want a skewed jack, just hold it at an angle and-- Voila! Infinitely adjustable skew angles! ;-) ralph ++++ End of thread 25546 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25547 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58873 (thread 25547) ---- From: williams@i... (Larry Williams) Date: 1999-03-03 15:29:00 Subject: interesting web site GG's I was recently made aware of an interesting site with a lot of interesting stuff. I wish I had more time to play around there. It's at: http://www.woodworking.org Larry Williams ++++ End of thread 25547 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25548 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58874 (thread 25548) ---- From: Aaron R Ionta Date: 1999-03-03 15:31:00 Subject: Re: Olive wood - please use ask the list moms Come on guys - lets snip the 40 lines of headers no nead to repeat them 20 time Grumpy and over worked ! but seriously please start snipping some more - right list moms Aaron taak John R Mudd wrote: > > Has > > anyone actually ever used it? Maybe we need to organize an olive-o-rama ;^ ) > > Old post from my personal OT archive. I chopped the names of the orginal > posters out. > > --- > > >The result of all this is I've got a fair amount of olive, in the form of > >branch/trunk sections 4-10" diameter and varying lengths, and I can't see > >using it all myself. If you're in the area, you can have some for the > >asking. Probably good for small stuff, turning, etc. (I've sealed the > >ends, but you get to debark it, slice it, and dry it yourself :^) As I live > >close to Old Tools in Santa Monica, if anyone's coming that way Saturday and > >wants some, drop me a note and we'll arrange a handoff. > > > >I've never used, let alone tried to dry, olive, but I've seen a few smaller > >pieces made out of it. It's nice stuff, dense and very fine grained. The > >sapwood is cream/tan, and the heartwood is figured with darker browns and > >black lines in a marbled effect. (Though there's not a whole lot of > >heartwood in these pieces). Perhaps others with more experience can comment . > > I've got some olive drying in my garage (from an annoying tree in my > front yard that just started dropping this year's crop of several > bazillion olives all over my yard, the side walk, etc). Here's a few > things I've learned along the way: > > - olive wood doesn't split well even when green...use a saw to cut it > into whatever size/shape you want. Using a froe is a waste of time on > this stuff. > > - once dry and planed, it's smoother than glass! I was shocked the first > time I ran a smoothing plane across a chunk of it (changed my attitude > quite a bit about this wood). > > - the bark is super easy to pull off _ONLY_ when the wood is freshly cut! > If you let the wood dry very much at all, the bark feels like it's glued > on with the best adhesive money could buy! If you haven't debarked the > stuff YOU want to use, I suggest you do it quickly...or you'll be > planing/grinding it off later and swearing at yourself for not knowing > this sooner. :-) > > - olive trees put their branches out in opposing pairs (one branch on one > side, the other branch is 180 degrees away). The next set of branches is > VERY close and is 90 degrees from the prior pair. This means that small > pieces have knots EVERYWHERE. > > - the wood around the knots LOVES to tear out during planing (did I > mention there are knots EVERYWHERE?). Set your plane for a super thin > cut and take your time...the finish you'll get is worth the extra effort! > > - the young branches look a lot like willow...very long, very thin, very > slight taper...you could probably make willow-style furniture from them > (although you may have to do half-scale/kid furniture since most of the > branches are less than 3/4" thick). > > > I'm betting this stuff would make a great spokeshave body, tool handles, > etc...anywhere that you need really smooth wood and don't care that > there's zero contrast between the early wood and the late wood (i.e.: > don't bother trying to see the grain in the resulting pieces...it's > nearly invisible). I'll eventually prove this one way or the other (when > the stuff I have dries a bit more and when I get a couple of projects > that are ahead of it done so they're out of the way). > > I've got a piece of it, with the bark still on, in use as a handle for a > large file. Just take a branch that's about the right diameter, drill a > hole in one end that's about the width of the middle of the file's tang, > chamfer the ends (to avoid splitting once it's dry) and slip the file > into the hole. The bark is pretty smooth and wears VERY nicely. I > picked this approach up from Dave Burnard after a shop visit a couple of > years ago (the handles look really cool too...lots of "character" to > them). > > I think this stuff will make great mallet heads as well (I'm using a > couple of smallish branches with the bark removed as a simple mallet for > adjusting wooden planes). > > A friend of mine was removing an olive tree and offered it to me. > Naturally, I jumped at the chance...but it turned out his gardener yanked > it out and disposed of it before he could get back to tell him I wanted > it. I would've had plenty to share otherwise (I do still owe a > decent piece to a certain celeb on this list and haven't > forgetten...honest...it's not dry enough to mail yet, really). :-) > > > -- ++++ End of thread 25548 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25549 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58876 (thread 25549) ---- From: "William H. Fissell" Date: 1999-03-03 14:27:00 Subject: Another mystery Mystery #3 Absence of adjustable throats on jacks n smoothers. Stanley took the trouble to put adjustable throats on only a few planes: several blocks, the 62, and the 164. The 64 notably does *not* have an adjustable throat. The low angle blocks (blocks in general?) were made for trimming end grain, I think,a s well as general touchup stuff. But Stanley gave them adjustable throats. I, for one, have never had tearout of end grain. The 62's original mission in life is obscure to me, but it seems like it ought to be good for end grain, by dint of its large rake angle. The 64, clearly intended for end grain on butcher blocks, has no such adjustable throat, which clearly asserts that an adjustable throat was not considered necessary for end grain work. So.... why go to all the annoyance of all these different frog designs, in none of which is it easy to adjust the throat, when the technology and know how already existed to make an adjustable throat? One could save all of the precision machining and a bunch of chatter by casting the frog into the plane, and then diddle with the throat at the leading edge of the plane. The obvious answer to the #62 #164 question is that they don't have traditional frogs, and so, like the block planes, Stanley had to adjust the throat from the front. Why this wasn't done on the #2-8 is a mystery to me. Bill getting his last licks in beofre the ICU ++++ End of thread 25549 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25550 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58879 (thread 25550) ---- From: Chris Winter Date: 1999-03-03 15:54:00 Subject: RE: Buying tools online - was: Disposition of collection and Eba y Adam writes: >but I notice there are regular dealers at ebay too. Recurring description "threads" (if this hasn't been mentioned) from some dealers sometimes include: "may not be the original iron" or "may not be part of the type study - a real rarity" and similar descriptions. For the less seasoned galoots, be wary in these instances especially if you are concerned about originality and consider them to be in some way an investment that your spouse can eventually take some nice vacations with upon disposition (I've already designed my final place of rest and it rivals the Egyptian Pharoahs). Some planes are a conglomerate of tons of iron certain unscroupulous dealers have on hand. If you've been hunting oldtools long enough, you'll have seen the basement of such "dealers" and the way all the planes are totally disassembled, then reassembled as needed. Now, it's not to say that these frankenplanes won't be good users as most likely will. Most dealers *try* to put similar vintage parts together but that depends on what is on hand. This practice is abhorred by the seasoned dealers who rarely even clean the tools in any way. It's fine to have substitute parts (IMO) as long as the presentation of such tools isn't a course in creative writing. The bid price should reflect it and certainly knowledge on behalf of the buyer is power. One idea may be to create a usual list of questions for the seller, then deduct from your final bid on the questions that aren't answered to your satisfaction - and as Mike Dunbar accurately states in "Restoring and tuning..... - - "there will always be another tool". That said, I've enjoyed the "mystery" of the tools as they are on their way and have been pleased thus far. But for the more common stuff, I do enjoy the physical hunt/human experience more. I don't/won't bid big bucks on something sight unseen from someone I don't know. Tim Swihart seems to like similar tools as myself and like Paddy, I won't bid against another known galoot..... Chris W. .....and most of these planes would likely fetch far less at the tool shows from more informed buyers as the tools can be fully inspected - knowledge becomes key rather than luck..... ---- Start of Message 58887 (thread 25550) ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 1999-03-03 19:56:00 Subject: RE: Buying tools online - was: Disposition of collection and Ebay At 10:54 AM 3/3/99 -0500, Chris@L... wrote: > >Recurring description "threads" (if this hasn't been mentioned) from some >dealers sometimes include: > >"may not be the original iron" > >or > >"may not be part of the type study - a real rarity" Here's one - A Stanley "4C" with rare early micromachined corrugations. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=72492346 ---- Start of Message 58896 (thread 25550) ---- From: Mike McCracken Date: 1999-03-03 17:59:00 Subject: RE: Buying tools online - was: Disposition of collection and Eba y I hope I don't bore some of you to death with this possibly long description, but I thought it might help clear up some questions on the auction marketplace. Also, I apologize for this not being directly related to tools and their use, but I hope it clears up a few things that are being discussed. I have been involved in the antiques business (as a dealer and collector) for over 25 years. Please note, I am not currently a dealer (haven't been for 15 years), but I do stay heavily involved in the business to keep an eye on what is going on. A lot of the things talked about here are the same in the antiques business and I thought I would relate some of the interesting psychological aspects of auctions and dealers. Careful, this may get long, so decide if you want to waste your time. Used to be (that means I am an old geezer who laments the loss of the "old days"), buying at auction was for brave souls. You bought, you took, and if you got screwed that was your fault for being ignorant. That's why dealers primarily bought at auction. They had the knowledge and could decipher the junk from the good stuff. Amateurs/beginners would constantly get taken, and the dealers would sit in the back snickering because they new that the beginner would eventually get educated enough to know that they needed to rely on the dealers for their knowledge. I will set aside all discussions of unscrupulous dealers and auctioneers for the rest of this note. Anyway the advice to collectors then, as it is now, was to rely on dealers you could trust. We all bottom fish, and one way to do that is by way of auction (since that's where the dealers buy isn't it?). Today, the auction market is largely a retail market, and you find fewer and fewer dealers who stock their inventory from auction. It is so bad in the area of antiques I am involved in that dealers are having a hard time finding stock, as most stuff goes directly to auction. What's driving this? A lot of people thinking they can sell at higher prices via auction, and a lot of buyers thinking they can get better deals from auctions than they can from dealers. Something is funny here, since if the sellers think they can get higher prices, and the buyers think they can get lower prices, there has to be some disconnect. The disconnect is based upon a couple of silly assumptions. First, dealers are out to screw you, buy the thing from you for a dollar, and sell it for 1,000. In the real world, few of those "finds" occur, even if done legitimately. The other assumption, that I previously stated, is auctions are where the dealers buy, and therefore we can buy at wholesale at auction. What always fascinated me was collectors would pay more for something at auction than from a dealer. Somehow (and I learned this from asking these folks why they would do such a thing, pretending I was a beginning collector) was they didn't trust dealers, thought the dealers shouldn't be making so much profit, and thought they were getting a better deal (that last one always puzzled me when I knew they were paying more than the city slicker dealers in New Yawk city were asking for the same thing). Before you shout at me for being too dealer protective I want to close with a quick analysis of the advantages (economically) that auction houses have over dealers. That has to do with carrying costs and therefore margins. An auction house typically accepts consignments (and today more and more rarely buys outright). That minimizes the risk of their capital. If the thing don't sell, they just hand it back to the consigner and say sorry. Dealers have to unload the stuff or carry it at a cost of inventory. Inventory turns are part of business practice. An auction house, essentially, has a guaranteed turn every time they have an auction, and their suppliers finance the whole thing (sounds like WalMart and Dell). So in some cases, you may actually be able to buy cheaper at auction (all things being equal), since a dealer has to include carrying costs and profits, and all the other expenses, where an auction house is charging the seller and often the buyer a fee to use the buyer's and seller's money, and can reduce their margin percentages compared to a dealer. Do I buy antiques at auction? Sure, but less and less, since the prices are so high. Do I buy from dealers? Sure, but less and less, since the prices are so high. So what do I do? Hunt and peck, bottom fish, and dream a lot, since my collecting interests far exceed my wallet's ability to pay. I keep hoping I will win the lottery, but the other day somene told me I have to buy lottery tickets to improve my chances of winning. As far as tools go, I only buy from dealers so far, since I don't know a tote from a boat, or a frog from a toad yet. But thanks to you folks, I am learning that a plane is not something to fly in. Mike ++++ End of thread 25550 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25551 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58882 (thread 25551) ---- From: "HALL, HAYWARD" Date: 1999-03-03 16:31:00 Subject: Nazca balloon (was Adjuster Oddity) Rick and others: Ok, I admit I thought you were smoking something strange there, so I plugged some keywords into the old metacrawler and found this on the Inca balloonists: http://www.nott.com/nott_in_the_media.htm http://www.nott.com/nazca.htm Too cool. I'm sure that can be considered an old tool in some sense. Hayward Hall Springfield MO > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Garza [SMTP:rrgarza@f...] > Reverse > engineering can be akin to trying to explain mysteries. Take for > example all that Nazca plain stuff in Peru. Strange shapes made with > boulders that can only be seen by the air, at least a thousand years > old. Over the last 30 yrs we have had everything from Von Danikens > aliens to religious explanations. Recently they discovered they knew > how to make hot air balloons back then and the whole thing was most > likely AirInca. The simplest answers often are the right ones..... > > Rick Garza > > > > -- ++++ End of thread 25551 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25552 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58883 (thread 25552) ---- From: eoh@k... Date: 1999-03-03 16:37:00 Subject: Olive wood reply Dear Galoots, I wrote the olivewood guy this morning and received the following response. Since it it canned I figure I will save everyone's time by posting it. Sounds like he has been overwhelmed with interest. If anyone missed his address the first time it is aknox@a... Esther eoh@k... who was planning a trip down the OR-CA coast at least as far as Ft. Bragg the beginning of July, who is wondering whether she will end up a bit farther south before heading east (don't have a CA map handy) Do any Sacramentons know if there are any state parks where one can try one's hand at panning for gold in the region? [This is a canned response.] We have a grove of 60 year old olive trees that are going to be pushed out in the next 2-4 months. The grove is located near Porterville, CA, which is about half-way between Fresno and Visalia in the Central Valley. We haven't yet decided on a price for the wood itself, but if you want a large quantity you should be able to figure on truck shipping rates of palletized loads. Smaller quantities would probably go out UPS, FedEx, etc., and you can calculate these rates on your own by going to the appropriate web site and using that company's rate calculator. I'll be saving messages from all interested parties so that I can let you all know exactly what our plan is once we decide on it. I'm also going to see if I can find a good picture of the trees to scan and forward it along in the next week or so. Please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any further questions. We just hate to see all this nice wood going for firewood, which is what'll happen if crafters and artisans don't want it. Thanks, Lyle Knox ++++ End of thread 25552 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25553 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58884 (thread 25553) ---- From: "Kelly Cox" Date: 1999-03-03 16:41:00 Subject: Should Galoots sell on ebay? (was RE: Ebay) Dave opined: > > For the love of God can we please not do this again ! > > - ever? > > Thank you > > Dave Tobbe I tried to steer the thread towards the topic of "what do Galoots think of other Galoots selling their tools on Ebay rather than on FMM" (it seemed to be heading this direction anyway). This seems like a perfectly valid and interesting topic for the Porch. However, nobody has voiced their opinions on the subject. It has instead become a discussion of "why Galoots like to buy tools on Ebay". This _is_ a tiresome subject, although the detour into the topic of bid-rigging was pretty educational. As is the subject of bidding against other Galoots--I will avoid bidding on a tool if I recognize names (most I don't) _unless_ if have noticed that person selling their tools on ebay also! Kelly Cox Madison, WI ---- Start of Message 58886 (thread 25553) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-03 16:57:00 Subject: Re: Should Galoots sell on ebay? (was RE: Ebay) >I tried to steer the thread towards the topic of "what do Galoots >think of other Galoots selling their tools on Ebay rather than on FMM" >(it seemed to be heading this direction anyway). This seems like a >perfectly valid and interesting topic for the Porch. However, nobody >has voiced their opinions on the subject. Can somebody clue me in to who/what/where/why FMM changed while I was gone? Privately that is. I've used up enough bandwidth for one day. Rick Garza ---- Start of Message 59042 (thread 25553) ---- From: STJones911@a... Date: 1999-03-05 11:45:00 Subject: Re: Should Galoots sell on ebay? (was RE: Ebay) In a message dated 3/3/99 11:52:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, cox@n... writes: > I tried to steer the thread towards the topic of "what do Galoots > think of other Galoots selling their tools on Ebay rather than > on FMM" Ok, I'll play. I hate the idea of other Galoots selling on ebay because I'd rather buy on FMM - I know the price, I can make certain assumptions about the seller, and I usually know within a day if I've bought it or not. I've bought several tools on ebay with minor flaws that a Galoot would have mentioned. As a buyer, give me FMM any day. Having said that, I confess that I've sold tools on ebay (before joining the porch, of course - now I don't dispose of anything ;^) ). I liked letting the market set the value and was confident that I was getting a fair or higher-than-fair price. I've never sold anything on FMM for the reason stated earlier but if I'll probably give it a shot when I have something to get rid of. My $.02. Steve Jones Seeking Stanley #64 screwdrivers and Buck Bros. mortise chisels (on both FMM and ebay) ++++ End of thread 25553 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25554 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58885 (thread 25554) ---- From: Conan The Librarian Date: 1999-03-03 16:51:00 Subject: Smoothing inside curves (summary) Gregarious Galoots, Thanks to all who responded to my question regarding smoothing tight inside curves/spokeshaves. A few have shown interest in seeing a summary of responses. If you're not interested, delete now. (1). Make an extra body for my Gunterman shave with rounded sole sized for the inside curve I want to cut. (2). Buy a MF cigar shave (and one Galoot offered to sell me one). (3). Buy one of the "R" model shaves from current Wm. Alden catalog. (4). Use a sharp paring chisel. (5). Use a glass scrap as a scraper. (6). One galoot even went as far as giving me suggestions for how to build a treadle-lathe. :-) I've already in the process of doing #2 above, and expect that I will try all the others at some point in the future. :-) Thanks again for all the helpful hints. Chuck Vance Woodworking projects at: http://www.swt.edu/~cv01/woodworking.html ---- Start of Message 58971 (thread 25554) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-03-04 17:18:00 Subject: RE: Smoothing inside curves (summary) ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of ~ Conan The ~ Librarian ~ Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 4:52 PM ~ To: OLDTOOLS@l... ~ Subject: Smoothing inside curves (summary) ~ ~ Thanks to all who responded to my question regarding smoothing ~ tight inside curves/spokeshaves. A few have shown interest in ~ seeing a summary of responses. As a gratuitous comment - I was brought up in the British Arts & Crafts philosophy (Edward Barnsley at Loughborough) that if a curve cannot be easily smoothed with a spokeshave, then it had no right to be conceived. Ie, curves that require files (for example), probably are of the kind that produce profiles that contain short grain and therefore vunerable to damage. Part of me does still subscribe to this rather puritanical view, though such rules can tend to restrict design opportunities. Jeff ---- Start of Message 58979 (thread 25554) ---- From: Conan The Librarian Date: 1999-03-04 18:06:00 Subject: Re: Smoothing inside curves (summary) Jeff wrote: > As a gratuitous comment - I was brought up in the British Arts & > Crafts philosophy (Edward Barnsley at Loughborough) that if a curve > cannot be easily smoothed with a spokeshave, then it had no right to > be conceived. > > Ie, curves that require files (for example), probably are of the kind > that produce profiles that contain short grain and therefore vunerable > to damage. I can see how that would be true. However, in my case I'm not too worried about it. I don't expect this set of candlesticks will be subjected to too much abuse. :-) > Part of me does still subscribe to this rather puritanical view, > though such rules can tend to restrict design opportunities. Well, luckily I have no artistic sensibilities, so I won't be hindered by such a view. :-) The candlesticks are being done to reflect the predominantly Southwestern (an area of the U.S. known for blending Spanish colonial and native themes, Jeff) decor of the house, which is not exactly traditional. Horrible ASCII art alert: ____ ( ) <---- <---- this area gradually tapers from the <---- "bulb" on the base to the top (which <---- is really more tulip-shaped than it <---- appears here) <---- ( ) > < | | |________| It's modeled after columns that are fairly common on SW furniture/architecture. It's fairly heavy in form, but it will be relieved with a spiral carving in the area between top and bottom. Anyhow, the area where the sloped sides join the tulip form of the top is where I need to smooth a fairly sharp inside curve. (And I've got a MF#1 on the way that I hope will do the trick. :-) Chuck Vance Woodworking projects at: http://www.swt.edu/~cv01/woodworking.html ++++ End of thread 25554 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25555 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58890 (thread 25555) ---- From: Wesley Groot Date: 1999-03-03 18:20:00 Subject: Patent Models: everything you ever wanted to know, and more! Ok, my throat hurts, and since I yell for my supper, I've got some time on my hands at the office. The Outline: The following information is from the Christie's catalog entitled: "The Art of Invention Part II" American Patent Models 1836-1899 from the Cliff Petersen Collection. The auction was 11/20/96 in NYC. I'll tell you where I got the catalog, and some interesting things ( I think) about the models and their history. If you hang around 'til the end, I'll trow in some prices realized. The catalog is from "The Catalog Kid" in 'Joisy. Ph 1800-258-2056 Normal disclaimer: I've never even met the guy. Never spoke to him. Don't vouch for him. Etc... The stuff: >From the front of the catalog: A Chronological Timeline (I'll just hit the high spots) The requirement for patent models was set forth in the patent act of April 10, 1790, and models were required until 1880 although many were submitted after that date. In 100 years, about 250,000 of these models were accumulated. 1823, the first reported listing of the models indicated 1,810 patent models. July 4 1836. Patent act of 1836 was passed allowing for construction of a new building for the patent office. This building was to include exhibition space for the nearly 10,000 models then in existence. Also, a requirement that the models had to be no larger than a cubic foot. In December of that year, before the new building was finished, a fire destroyed the Blodgetts Hotel, where the patent office had been living since 1810. In the fire all of the contents were destroyed. $100,000 was authorized to reconstruct some of the records and models. Sept. 24th 1877 another fire destroyed about 76,000 models, many of which were rejected models stored in the west model hall. In 1880 the requirement for models was deemed impractical, and the law was changed to permit models only when required by the commissioner. In 1893 most of the models were crated up and moved to temporary storage. 1907 congress decided to dispose of the models. The Smithsonian was given first choice and took over 1,000 models by famous inventors. 1908 Congress began selling models. 3,000 that never received patents were sold for $62.18. the remaining models were stored in a livery stable (about 150,000 of them.) In 1925 Congress *really* decided to do something about them. The Smithsonian chose models which they thought had historical significance, and Herbert Hoover sold the remainder to philanthropist Sir Henry Wellcome. Over the next 60 or so years the models were sold on the street for twenty-five cents (1926) until this auction. Many times Museums were planned to house large groups of them, but rarely were these plans ever realized. I would recommend the catalog. I only have the second one, but it's extremely interesting to see some of the patents that were supposed to change our lives! This catalog only contains 300 lots, so there will be more auctions! Some interesting items: Lot #34; patent #93026- 1869. Sliding Calipers (machinist tool, Karl?) Andrew E Whitmore, Boston. Made of brass with it's drawing and tag. Looks as though the patent is for a screw-type fine adjuster. Estimated price: $350-$400 Actual realized price: $2300 Lot #24; patent #206858- 1878. A casting pattern for a horshoe. George Bryden, Hartford, Ct. New way to make horse shoes-Cast them! Russ and I would have outbid this one. Estimate: $250-$300 Actual: $207 Lot #3; Patent #209222- 1878 Saw set. Can't tell what the improvement is. Frank A Buell, Brooklyn, NY. Est. $350- $400 Actual: $288 Lot #20 Patent #71979- 1867. A sawyers Rule 12"x3"x1/4" Scales on both sides. Thomas Carter, Ma. Est: $500-$600 Actual: $748 Lot #61 Patent #65449- 1867 A vise for holding wood. This is similar to a balljoint saw vise, except it has a woodworkers vise above the ball. Issac Tate, New London Ct. Est: $400-$500 Actual: $1380 Lot #267 Patent #10189- 1853 Carpenter's brace and bit fastener. This model was taken from the debri of the fire in 1877. The drawing shows this invention as it would have been used on an Ultimatum style brace. Howard Perkins, S. Bridgewater Ma. Est: $450-$500 Actual: $253 Lot #263 Patent #197541- 1877 Universal Joint. An improvement that greatly increases the strength of a universal joint "without materially increasing the amount of metal used in their construction." This model is patternmaker quality. I would have been all over this one! Est: $2500-$3000 Actual: $437 ! Any way, those are just a few of the OLDTOOL related patents there are many more. Respectfully Submitted, Wes ++++ End of thread 25555 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25556 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58892 (thread 25556) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-03-03 19:39:00 Subject: A new Stanley competitor? I know Microsoft needs to find new markets to maintain their revenue growth but this is too weird!! http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US05819372__&language=en Dan ---- Start of Message 58893 (thread 25556) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-03 20:03:00 Subject: Re: A new Stanley competitor? >I know Microsoft needs to find new markets to maintain their revenue >growth but this is too weird!! > >http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US05819372__&language=en > I thought my 1500 yrold Inca balloonists took the prize for todays oddest. You realize this is a patent for a BUTT HINGE? Its simply divine! Ive actually played with these types at Home Depot.....No way I would figured Microsoft was behind it. I wonder if a MS employee did it on his own and his IP employee agreements took over ownership. It used to be what you did on your own time was yours, providing you didnt use company property or resources. Ive seen newer ones that it doesnt matter when or where it was done, if you work for somebody its belongs to the company. Or, Microsoft is trying to corner the market on BUTT HINGES and other useful accessories for DOORWAYS..... Rick Garza ---- Start of Message 58897 (thread 25556) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-03-03 20:06:00 Subject: Re: A new Stanley competitor? Rick Garza wrote: > > >I know Microsoft needs to find new markets to maintain their revenue > >growth but this is too weird!! > > > >http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US05819372__&language=en > > > I thought my 1500 yrold Inca balloonists took the prize for todays > oddest. You realize this is a patent for a BUTT HINGE? Its simply > divine! Ive actually played with these types at Home Depot.....No way > Or, Microsoft is trying to corner the market on BUTT HINGES and other > useful accessories for DOORWAYS..... I get it now, first control windows, then doors and then we're trapped ;^) But at least microsoft will provide a handy holder for your books. Check out http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US04588074__&language=en Dan ---- Start of Message 58923 (thread 25556) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-03-04 01:52:00 Subject: Re: A new Stanley competitor? Employers do this all the time. I know mine does.. It is suposed to promote "free thinking" example: If I come up with something (anything, it does not need to be related to my job or even my employers' product).. by simple virtue of applying for the patent I get a $500 check.. and if I get the patent I get another $2k... oh they also pay for all the fee's and searches, etc. the only drawback is that they own the patent... it is stil in my name but I give up all rights to it for a certain # of years ( I forget how many.) this is not unheard of at all... matter of fact my previous two employers had similar programs. ---- Start of Message 58926 (thread 25556) ---- From: "Gene & Lucy Toye" Date: 1999-03-04 02:48:00 Subject: Re: A new Stanley competitor? -----Original Message----- From: John A. Gunterman To: OLDTOOLS@l... Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 8:26 PM Subject: Re: A new Stanley competitor? >Employers do this all the time. >I know mine does.. It is suposed to promote "free thinking" ... snip ... >John A. Gunterman... Horse shoeing for cash only. > > Visit the New Apprentice Neanderthal Page at: >http://people.ne.mediaone.net/spokeshave/A_N.HTM > So, the question that comes to my mind is what do you and the employer get out of it beyond "free thinking"? I doubt that Microsoft wants to market butt hinges but where is the incentive for the inventor to pursue marketing if his employeer owns the rights. It is just for the bragging rights? I'm one of the inventor's on a (work related) patent held by my company. Wish I got $2k to go along with it! ---- Start of Message 58929 (thread 25556) ---- From: Datoolfool@a... Date: 1999-03-04 02:15:00 Subject: Re: A new Stanley competitor? Don't complain, I get 50 bucks from one of the world's biggest companies IF the political winds don't put the uninvolved on the application instead of the people who figured it out. ---- Start of Message 58930 (thread 25556) ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 1999-03-04 02:42:00 Subject: Re: A new Stanley competitor? In a message dated 3/3/99 6:02:20 PM, spokeshave@m... writes: << Employers do this all the time ... >> My previous employer quit applying for patent protection some years ago. All intellectual or physical property is now protected by trade secret means or by encryption means, as appropriate. Example: A product is manufactured and tested with the maximum amount of "features" which is possible to attach to it from an architectural sense. Yet the customer only pays for the number of features he "purchases" ... the remaining features are made inaccessible by means of a hardware lock-out device which is controlled by a ROM (read only memory) which is encrypted by a strong encryption means. A back-up ROM is provided in case one fails. Both ROMs must be present for the product to operate. If the customer orders an "upgrade" then a new ROM (set) is "burned" and that ROM is sent to the customer service rep, who will "install" the additional features ... but the only action that really happens is the new ROM gets installed. To make it look like something is really happening, the product is "tested" for an extended period of time, perhaps the better part of a day. But the test is really designed for appearances only, as the entire product was really tested at the time of manufacture. To make sure that the ROM burning process and the program which controls it is not hijacked by third-party service personnel, the algorithms are known only by a few persons, and the special software tools necessary to actually burn the ROMs are accessible only by a few persons in a completely different group. Of course, there is no paper documentation of any of this which is in circulation. All such documentation is maintained by the Corporate Counsel, who is an officer of the corporation. It would take a conspiracy of several corporate officers plus several engineers and technicians to compromise this system. It hasn't been compromised yet, and it's been in use for more than a decade. Naturally, all customer contracts are written so as to support the fiction that the customer "owns" the whole product, when, in fact, he really only owns the features he contracted to buy. It is widely known that a certain New England-based company, now wholly owned by a Texas-based company, tried a similar means of product protection. But their protection means was not strongly encrypted, and was easily compromised by third-party service personnel. That company's legal department spent a lot of time in court trying to assert it's "rights" after-the-fact. In some cases they were successful, in other cases they were not. In all cases, it cost the company lots of money in legal fees and bad publicity. Perhaps that's why they're now owned by someone else. ---- Start of Message 58953 (thread 25556) ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 1999-03-04 14:19:00 Subject: Re: A new Stanley competitor? On Wed, 03 Mar 1999 14:39:45 -0500, Daniel Indrigo wrote: >I know Microsoft needs to find new markets to maintain their revenue >growth but this is too weird!! > >http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US05819372__&language=en This is actually part of Microsoft's strategy to prevent Doors(R)(TM) from becoming emerging as a competitor to Windows(R)(TM). Or maybe Doors will be released as crippleware. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA avogadro@b... (also avogadro@w...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 58961 (thread 25556) ---- From: "EFISHER.US.ORACLE.COM" Date: 1999-03-04 15:14:00 Subject: Re: A new Stanley competitor? I believe that patent dates from before Windows existed. ed ++++ End of thread 25556 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25557 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58894 (thread 25557) ---- From: "Brent D. Beach" Date: 1999-03-03 20:06:00 Subject: Lever Cap Design On Wed, 3 Mar, Rick Garza wrote: >I was talking about the lever cap and the fact that it pivots >around the cap screw. Its basically in the middle of the frog. >Theres a natural tendency to overstress the system to make it >do something it wasnt meant to do -- for what its meant to do >it works extremely well and is quite robust. For a design to >last as long as it has, its obviously not "broke". > >Cutter lock with other types, wooden ones for example spread >the pressure more generally over the whole blade. Friends of the Bailey lever cap unite! The fact that the lever cap pivots around the lever cap screw and hence presses the blade against the frog in only two places is a good thing, not a bad thing. The resistance to slipping is a function of the total force, not of the surface area. Spreading a given force out does not increase friction. Applying as much of the force as possible in a line across the entire blade near the front of the blade reduces blade chatter. Reducing the force applied there by redistributing that force would increase the chances of chatter for a given total force. The exact point at which that force is applied may may a big difference to chatter. By chatter, I am referring to the operational mode in which the plane skips across the wood, taking little divots every 1/32", more or less. Too close to the front of the frog and the blade can flex around the front of the frog by lifting the lever cap. Too far back and the blade can flex between the lever cap and the front of the frog. The lever cap design, wide at the bottom, narrow at the top, ensures that the force applied near the edge is evenly applied across the blade. If I was going to try to improve the Bailey plane, I would not start with the lever cap. This chatter thing amazes me. I have been planing some live oak and getting great results after severely tuning the plane. Took the blade out for one final sharpening for the final finish, put it back together, and it would not plane the wood at all. Sharpened the blade at exactly the same angles as before. Some minute change in the cap iron position, the lever cap screw set, the blade set, something. Chatter! Gouging! It was like it was a totally different plane. I gave up in frustration and have not gone back to try it again. Amazing! Brent Brent Beach, Victoria, BC, CA ---- Start of Message 58899 (thread 25557) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-03 21:15:00 Subject: Re: Lever Cap Design >Friends of the Bailey lever cap unite! Its not under attack. Certainly not by me. > >The fact that the lever cap pivots around the lever cap screw >and hence presses the blade against the frog in only two places >is a good thing, not a bad thing. Of course. Thats the elegant part of the design, and what it was intended to do. I said simply that when theres slippage the cap screw gets cranked too much by a few who think this will help solve the problem. The lever cap and cap screw is not intended to act as a clamp. The fact you do get some clamping action out of is secondary to its main purpose. Its all about putting tension on the chip breaker, the other part of a really elegant system. Over tightening just leads to damage eventually. Now whats Over? I imagine its different for each of us and the nature of what we are planing... > >The resistance to slipping is a function of the total force, not >of the surface area. Spreading a given force out does not >increase friction. Thats true. But with a wedge you can apply a lot more force without damaging something, which is not the case with a lever cap. Look, in design you usually have to make compromises. You never get something for nothing. TANSTAFL. The lever cap screw and cap not being able to take huge tightening abuse is not a bad thing, just a small price that was paid to be able to provide all the wonderful things it does. I am not saying we chuck out our lever caps and kneel to the holy wooden wedge -- just that they get mistreated every once in a while. I will kneel tho, if someone asks nice. Ive seen enough nice woodies to pay my respects. > >Applying as much of the force as possible in a line across the >entire blade near the front of the blade reduces blade chatter. >Reducing the force applied there by redistributing that force >would increase the chances of chatter for a given total force. > Sure. And increasing that force at that point would make things even better, absolutely. But the chip breaker is a spring and has a limit to how much force it cantake before it stops working and starts to deform. There is a valley on the other side of that hi peak.....ever notice how the same concept gets applied to some hi end smoothers, but everything looks "beefed" up? Its not for "absorbing" or damping vibrations as it first looks. It must simpler. The 'spring' can take more force before it starts to deform. Makes for a sweeter plane. >The exact point at which that force is applied may may a big >difference to chatter. By chatter, I am referring to the >operational mode in which the plane skips across the wood, >taking little divots every 1/32", more or less. Too close to the >front of the frog and the blade can flex around the front of the >frog by lifting the lever cap. Too far back and the blade can >flex between the lever cap and the front of the frog. > True. But it really has more to do with how the entire system responds to an impulse, not just the blade moving around. >If I was going to try to improve the Bailey plane, I would not >start with the lever cap. It can be improved. But you dont have to do it at the expense of the benefits its giving you by chucking it out and doing something different. There are many more places that can be improved long before you ever get to the cap. > >This chatter thing amazes me. I have been planing some live oak >and getting great results after severely tuning the plane. Took >the blade out for one final sharpening for the final finish, >put it back together, and it would not plane the wood at all. :-) :-) Thats why I have always believed you need a repeatable system that you woudnt get nailed when you have to rehone. Registration is a must. >Sharpened the blade at exactly the same angles as before. Some >minute change in the cap iron position, the lever cap screw >set, the blade set, something. Chatter! Gouging! It was like it >was a totally different plane. I gave up in frustration and have >not gone back to try it again. Amazing! > Thats why clamping the cutter to the bed help so much. Just dont do it at the expense of chipbreaker operation. >Brent who has also spent a lot time staring and thinking about how his plane works.... Rick Garza ---- Start of Message 58972 (thread 25557) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-03-04 17:19:00 Subject: RE: Lever Cap Design ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Brent D. ~ Beach ~ Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 8:06 PM ~ To: oldtools@l... ~ Subject: Lever Cap Design ~ ~ ~ Friends of the Bailey lever cap unite! ~ ~ The fact that the lever cap pivots around the lever cap screw ~ and hence presses the blade against the frog in only two places ~ is a good thing, not a bad thing. In supporting Brent's posting - take a look at the frog-mating face of a well-used iron and note the burnishing just behind the bevel and the burnishing at the place where the iron moves against the upper part of the frog as the lateral lever is adjusted. The tip of the frog will probably be similarly burnished. I rather suspect that a perfect fit between the iron and face of the frog is neither achievable (in practice) nor particularly desirable. ~ This chatter thing amazes me. I have been planing some live oak ~ and getting great results after severely tuning the plane. Took ~ the blade out for one final sharpening for the final finish, ~ put it back together, and it would not plane the wood at all. ~ Sharpened the blade at exactly the same angles as before. Some ~ minute change in the cap iron position, the lever cap screw ~ set, the blade set, something. Does Brent change the lever cap screw between settings? Would respectfully suggest that given that the same blade is used, this should not be necessary once the cam has been set to firmly snick into place yet be release-able with only a mild risk of index finger joint dislocation. 8-). Reset with cap iron distance to close? For thin shavings, its proximity to the edge does not matter half as much as a fine shaving aperture (within reason). Jeff ++++ End of thread 25557 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25558 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58898 (thread 25558) ---- From: "Frank O'Donnell" Date: 1999-03-03 21:07:00 Subject: Soaking waterstones GG's, Just got back from a three-week foray to Japan -- will post a travel report as soon as I get photos developed and thoughts composed. (I spent most of my free time hunting down anything tool- or woodworking- related.) One question in the meantime: While like many of you I'm a devotee of sandpaper-based Scary Sharpening, I do have a 1,000x/4,000x combination waterstone that I sometimes use. In Japan, I saw a reasonably priced 12,000x synthetic waterstone and decided to get it to give it a try. The instructions that came with the stone (all in kanji -- had to get some help to translate it) said that it should _not_ be kept in water for long periods of time, but rather should be immersed just five minutes or so before using it. That seemed odd, because I routinely keep my existing stone in a little tub of water, and have heard people recommend this for waterstones in general. I suppose, though, that it could depend on the kind of binder used in manufacturing the stone and whether long-term soaking degrades it. Has anyone else run across waterstones that you're not supposed to keep in water? Thanks much, Frank ---- Start of Message 58901 (thread 25558) ---- From: "Robert K. Davis" Date: 1999-03-03 21:18:00 Subject: Re: Soaking waterstones Frank, I've always seen the recommendation that 800x, 1000x, 1200x and coarser stones are OK to keep in the water, but the finer grit ones should be treated as you described. I've got a King 3000x that also has those instructions. Don't know if it is mildew or binder or what, though. ---- Start of Message 58907 (thread 25558) ---- From: Chris Dunn Date: 1999-03-03 22:07:00 Subject: Re: Soaking waterstones Frank O'Donnell wrote: > > Has anyone else run across waterstones that you're not > supposed to keep in water? It's my understanding (as limited as it is) is that the finer stones are treated as your instructions indicate. It's just the coarser stones that are left soaking - maybe those under 1000? Chris ---- Start of Message 58950 (thread 25558) ---- From: "Jim Weaver" Date: 1999-03-04 14:09:00 Subject: Re: Soaking waterstones I have three waterstones, an 8000, a 12000 and that fine polishing stone, I think it might be a 20000. All the instructions were in kanji and I have been keeping all of them in water. I have noticed that the finest stone does appear to be real soft, almost like clay. Maybe my problem is that I shouldn't keep it soaking in water. Does anyone else have ideas on this? Date sent: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 14:07:17 -0800 From: Chris Dunn To: fod@n... Copies to: oldtools@l... Subject: Re: Soaking waterstones Frank O'Donnell wrote: > > Has anyone else run across waterstones that you're not > supposed to keep in water? It's my understanding (as limited as it is) is that the finer stones are treated as your instructions indicate. It's just the coarser stones that are left soaking - maybe those under 1000? Chris ---- Start of Message 58951 (thread 25558) ---- From: RayTSmith@a... Date: 1999-03-04 14:07:00 Subject: Re: Soaking waterstones In a message dated 99-03-03 16:21:00 EST, bob@b... writes: << I've always seen the recommendation that 800x, 1000x, 1200x and coarser stones are OK to keep in the water, but the finer grit ones should be treated as you described. I've got a King 3000x that also has those instructions. > Don't know if it is mildew or binder or what, though. >> My understanding is that soaking loosens the glue bond of the stone and the plastic base that it comes with. Coarse stones don't usually have a base, so you can soak 'em. The polishing stones usually have a plastic base of some sort. For what its worth, I've forgotten to remove my 8000 grit King from the water for months at a time. The stone itself is still perfect, but the base is slightly loose on one end now. Nowdays, I leave it in its own Tupperware container, so it doesn't pick up grit from other stones, and there's maybe an inch of water in the bottom. I just turn the stone grit side down for a few minutes before I want to use it, and flip it back over when I'm ready to put it away. Being in a closed container of water has never harmed it in the least. Ray T. Smith ---- Start of Message 58964 (thread 25558) ---- From: Mark van Roojen Date: 1999-03-04 16:21:00 Subject: Re: Soaking waterstones At 09:09 AM 3/4/99 -0500, Jim Weaver wrote: >I have three waterstones, an 8000, a 12000 and that fine polishing stone, I think >it might be a 20000. All the instructions were in kanji and I have been >keeping all of them in water. I have noticed that the finest stone does >appear to be real soft, almost like clay. Maybe my problem is that I >shouldn't keep it soaking in water. Does anyone else have ideas on this? > > My guess is that one reason to keep the fine stones out of the water is the wooden bases since I suspect that they swell and contract ad different rates than the wood itself, leading to warpage and stress on the stones. But I don't know this. MArk Mark van Roojen P.O. Box 83836 Department of Philosophy Lincoln, NE 68501-3836 University of Nebraska (402) 438-3724 (h) 1010 Oldfather Hall (402) 472-2428 (w) Lincoln, NE 68588-0321 (402) 472-0626 (fax) (msv@u...) ---- Start of Message 59081 (thread 25558) ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1999-03-06 02:24:00 Subject: Re: Soaking waterstones ** Reply to note from "Frank O'Donnell" Wed, 03 Mar 1999 13:07:08 -0800 > > Has anyone else run across waterstones that you're not > supposed to keep in water? I don't keep any of my waterstones in water. When I use the #6000 I just squirt water on the surface and have at it. This stone does not soak up water. The #800 and #1200 are dunked about 5 minutes before use. I have a squirt bottle that I wet the surface with. If I don't dunk the stones before use it takes many squirts to get a wet surface, with a 5 minute dunk it only takes one squirt. The #80 is another matter. No matter how long you soak it the water always seems to run out. I think the only way to use this guy is under water. The environment may have an effect. When the humidity is 10% any surface will dry off quickly. That is why the squirt bottle is handy. ernie fisch ++++ End of thread 25558 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25559 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58902 (thread 25559) ---- From: "Robert K. Davis" Date: 1999-03-03 21:25:00 Subject: Lapping Woodies I've used the Quiklap (tm) method in the past frequently to lap the soles of my metallic planes. Now I have a wooden plane (Japanese) that needs to have the sole lapped. Is the Quiklap (tm) method suitable for tuning those, or do I need to use another method? Japan Woodworker sells a sole conditioning plane, do I need one of those? Does the sandpaper leave an unsatisfactory surface on the woodie? Maybe I should just plane it down with one of my other planes? This plane came with a completely flat sole, unlike my other Japanese smoother which intentionally does not. For that I suspect I'd need the above mentioned sole conditioning plane, but was hoping I could get away without it on this one . Thanks, ---- Start of Message 58905 (thread 25559) ---- From: Jim Cook Date: 1999-03-03 21:42:00 Subject: RE: Lapping Woodies I've used the Quiklap (tm) method in the past frequently to lap the soles of my metallic planes. Now I have a wooden plane (Japanese) that needs to have the sole lapped. Is the Quiklap (tm) method suitable for tuning those, or do I need to use another method? Japan Woodworker sells a sole conditioning plane, do I need one of those? Does the sandpaper leave an unsatisfactory surface on the woodie? Maybe I should just plane it down with one of my other planes? Bob, --I'd agree to this one. You'd want your cutter edge to be absolutely straight though, with no camber. Jim Cook (who still admits to cheating with an E-joiner at times) ---- Start of Message 58908 (thread 25559) ---- From: "Russell, Lanny J" Date: 1999-03-03 22:28:00 Subject: RE: Lapping Woodies Bob wonders about lapping the sole of his new Japanese plane: >>Now I have a wooden plane (Japanese) that needs to have the sole lapped. >>This plane came with a completely flat sole, unlike my other Japanese smoother which intentionally does not. For that I suspect I'd need the above mentioned sole conditioning plane, but was hoping I could get away without it on this one. Bob, I believe the conditioning plane sold by Japanese WW'r is used to do just the opposite of lapping, ie. it is used to create hollows in the sole. The toe, mouth and sometimes heel of the sole are all that contact the workpiece in most Japanese planes; as apparently is the case in your older plane. Did the new plane come with 'instructions' which said it should be set up differently? Lanny Russell N'Awlins who needs to make a dai for his jap blade -----Original Message----- From: Robert K. Davis [mailto:bob@b...] Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 3:26 PM To: oldtools@l... Subject: Lapping Woodies I've used the Quiklap (tm) method in the past frequently to lap the soles of my metallic planes. Is the Quiklap (tm) method suitable for tuning those, or do I need to use another method? Japan Woodworker sells a sole conditioning plane, do I need one of those? Does the sandpaper leave an unsatisfactory surface on the woodie? Maybe I should just plane it down with one of my other planes? This plane came with a completely flat sole, unlike my other Japanese smoother which intentionally does not. For that I suspect I'd need the above mentioned sole conditioning plane, but was hoping I could get away without it on this one. Thanks, ---- Start of Message 58941 (thread 25559) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-03-04 10:21:00 Subject: RE: Lapping Woodies ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of ~ Robert K. ~ Davis ~ Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 9:26 PM ~ To: oldtools@l... ~ Subject: Lapping Woodies ~ ~ ~ I've used the Quiklap (tm) method in the past frequently to ~ lap the soles ~ of my metallic planes. Now I have a wooden plane (Japanese) ~ that needs to ~ have the sole lapped. Is the Quiklap (tm) method suitable ~ for tuning those, ~ or do I need to use another method? I don't know whether there is anything special about this flat-soled Japanese plane, but most British tradesmen planed their beech planes with a trying plane, using the usual very slightly cambered irons. This is the way I was taught 55 years ago, with an injunction to leave the iron in place, yet retracted of course. A very light sanding using the usual cork block followed. My experience with my wooden jack plane is that overtightening the wedge can make it concave from toe to heel. Jeff ++++ End of thread 25559 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25560 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58903 (thread 25560) ---- From: "Comstock" Date: 1999-03-03 21:29:00 Subject: To ebay or not to ebay Large and small Galoots, This is a story of a rat oh high yo plane bought from an unnamed source on the porch. Plane description goes: Has chip out of casting , wrong blade and screw missing from frog .O K says I we can live with that. Plane arrives and we head for the shop.First lap the sole , oh my he forgot to mention the threads for the tote screw were history and the screw was a ba**ard. OK were fixed and now , whoops front knob needs a little gluing , ah there now ready for lapping. Next we find a spare screw for frog and scarry sharp ( my grandfather has been using emery cloth taped to his tablesaw to sharpen for eons by the way) the blade . Alrighty then lets put this baby together , Oh dear this chip breaker is not original and when in place the blade will not fully retract .Hmmmm lets see now ill play with the cast blade adjuster and ,Oh dear is that a crack , yup thats a crack and oh sh*t now what?? Remove adjuster Pin put a heavy turn on the screw holding the lever cap sssnnnnaap it in place and ,now wheres my apolsterers hammer. Voila shavings you can see through. Caveat Emptor >From down in the mud Patrick P ++++ End of thread 25560 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25561 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58906 (thread 25561) ---- From: "Comstock" Date: 1999-03-03 22:07:00 Subject: leaches and staggs Humblest, Apologies for the mime ken and no Mistuh patrick it wasnt you who sold me the rat. Now dont get me wrong , im not complaining a rat is a rat and now it works like a charm it just happens to adjust like a woodie. My point was if you think youre going to get diamonds for the price of a half ton of crushed gravel forget it Jack. so far down in the muck I look up at bottom feeders Patrick P ++++ End of thread 25561 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25562 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58909 (thread 25562) ---- From: r_moore@t... Date: 1999-03-03 22:31:00 Subject: TANSTAFL? Rick Garza wrote: I'm usually fairly good at figuring out the meaning of these things, but I give up on this one.What does TANSTAFL mean? Randy Moore Acronymically challenged in Waxahachie, TX ---- Start of Message 58925 (thread 25562) ---- From: Denis Hancock Date: 1999-03-04 02:34:00 Subject: re: TANSTAFL? TANSTAAFL: There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Robert Heinlein? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Denis Hancock, Senior Sci. Programmer/Analyst 1-573-882-1722 (voice) dhancock@t... 1-573-884-7850 (fax) Department of Agronomy, University of Missouri, Columbia MO 65211 USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 58928 (thread 25562) ---- From: "Bill Taggart" Date: 1999-03-04 02:29:00 Subject: Re: TANSTAFL? -----Original Message----- From: r_moore@t... To: oldtools@l... Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 5:36 PM Subject: TANSTAFL? >Rick Garza wrote: > > > >I'm usually fairly good at figuring out the meaning >of these things, but I give up on this one.What >does TANSTAFL mean? There Ain't No Such Thing As a Free Lunch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 58932 (thread 25562) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-04 03:51:00 Subject: Re: TANSTAFL? >TANSTAAFL: > >There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. > >Robert Heinlein? Bingo. Sorry aging space cadet here. Traded in my secret decoder ring long ago for a spare set of $45 cutters....slips out sometimes. Rick Garza ---- Start of Message 59019 (thread 25562) ---- From: Tom Corey Date: 1999-03-04 14:20:00 Subject: Re:TANSTAFL? Denis Hancock wrote: > TANSTAAFL: > > There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. > > Robert Heinlein? I believe it is Larry Niven. From the 'Known Space' series. Tom ---- Start of Message 59082 (thread 25562) ---- From: Tony Blanks Date: 1999-03-06 02:44:00 Subject: Re:TANSTAFL? At 09:20 AM 3/4/99 -0500, Tom Corey wrote: >Denis Hancock wrote: >> TANSTAAFL: >> There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. >> Robert Heinlein? >I believe it is Larry Niven. From the 'Known Space' series. >Tom Well it might be, but I have it before me in Robert Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" It first occurs in the bar-room trial episode, as Tanstaafl. An off topic contribution in the interests of clarity and the maintenance of cultural standards! Bye for now, Tony B ---- Start of Message 59102 (thread 25562) ---- From: Michael Horgan Date: 1999-03-06 17:14:00 Subject: Re:TANSTAFL? At 09:20 AM 3/4/99 -0500, Tom Corey wrote: >Denis Hancock wrote: >> TANSTAAFL: >> >> There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. >> >> Robert Heinlein? > >I believe it is Larry Niven. From the 'Known Space' series. > >Tom Both, actually, although Larry says he picked up the acronym from talking to Mr Heinlein. Michael D. Horgan ICQ#10736574 lughaid@p... http://members.aol.com/lughaid/ ++++ End of thread 25562 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25563 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58910 (thread 25563) ---- From: "Ezra Herman" Date: 1999-03-03 22:32:00 Subject: Shaker Exhibition in New York City Hello- For anyone who's interested: There is an exhibition of Shaker artifacts at the Paine Webber building in New York City. It's located on the northwest corner of 51st St. and 6th Ave. It is open until 6pm Monday's through Fridays and I believe that the exhibition runs through March 20th. If anyone has any questions on the exhibition, you should email me privately, as I'm off on vacation shortly and have put my Oldtools subscription on hold. -Ezra Herman ++++ End of thread 25563 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25564 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58911 (thread 25564) ---- From: Aaron R Ionta Date: 1999-03-03 23:00:00 Subject: Enough with the steenkin *b*y - Fruitwood woodies question HOw about a real question or topic - like how frequently did plane makers of old use fruit wood for wooden planes was the use of Fruitwood more prelevant during a particular time period? more used in Europe compared to the US? who in Galoot dom owns Fruitwood Planes? Aaron taak The Auction Aggrivated Kid ++++ End of thread 25564 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25565 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58912 (thread 25565) ---- From: "David W. Thompson - Employee Communications" Date: 1999-03-03 23:00:00 Subject: Enough with the steenkin *b*y - Fruitwood woodies question TANSTAFL (also sometimes written as TANSTAAFL): There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch Dave > From: r_moore@t... > To: oldtools@l... > Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:31:21 -0600 > Subject: TANSTAFL? > > Rick Garza wrote: > > > > I'm usually fairly good at figuring out the meaning > of these things, but I give up on this one.What > does TANSTAFL mean? > > Randy Moore > Acronymically challenged in Waxahachie, TX > > > -- > ++++ End of thread 25565 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25566 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58913 (thread 25566) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-03-03 23:38:00 Subject: Re: Enough with the steenkin *b*y - Fruitwood woodies question >HOw about a real question or topic - I'd be very interested in hearing from those that don't like talking about ebay just why this is so. I can see that some get very uptight by just seeing the word ebay in the title, but I personally can't understand the reaction. I'm not against bending to other's wishes, but I usually only do so for a good reason. Screaming at me isn't a good reason. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 58958 (thread 25566) ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 1999-03-04 15:16:00 Subject: Re: Enough with the steenkin *b*y - Fruitwood woodies question Hi, Aaron et al. I've been waiting for someone who is more of a collector to answer your question about fruitwood planes; but here is what little I know. It does seem that they are more common from Continental Europe. I have several from France. Most often the wood is "cormier", a close relative of our mountain ash (Sorbus americana). The European species is S. aucuparia, called "rowan tree" in England. Neither of these is an ash at all but closely related to apples. I have had one American plane made of cherry. Trevor Robinson ---- Start of Message 58965 (thread 25566) ---- From: RayTSmith@a... Date: 1999-03-04 16:14:00 Subject: Re: Enough with the steenkin *b*y - Fruitwood woodies question Fruitwood planes are pretty scarce. Other than the occasional applewood plow, exotic woods like boxwood and lignum are more common. Some 18th century bench planes used fruitwood totes, but I can't remember ever seeing a whole plane of fruitwood. Most of the fruitwood ones I've heard of were craftsman made. Jus say, I got a panel raiser with a fruitwood tote of some sort, and a plow with apple nuts and washers. Other than that, all my woodies are either beech, boxwood, lignum, or rosewood. Ray T. Smith ---- Start of Message 58970 (thread 25566) ---- From: "David Barnett" Date: 1999-03-04 17:03:00 Subject: Re: Enough with the steenkin *b*y - Fruitwood woodies question Aaron Ionta asked: >who in Galoot dom owns Fruitwood Planes? I do, Aaron. Got it on eBay. Just kidding. My Primus Improved smoother, which actually came from Garrett Wade, is described in catalog copy variously as pear or cherry. Mine looks like cherry, but the catalog said pear. David Barnett Northampton, MA *didn't see this last night when I posted, so this is a re-post. ---- Start of Message 58984 (thread 25566) ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 1999-03-04 18:49:00 Subject: Re: Enough with the steenkin *b*y - Fruitwood woodies question At 11:14 AM 3/4/99 EST, RayTSmith@a... wrote: > > Fruitwood planes are pretty scarce. Other than the occasional applewood plow, >exotic woods like boxwood and lignum are more common. Some 18th century bench >planes used fruitwood totes, but I can't remember ever seeing a whole plane of >fruitwood. Most of the fruitwood ones I've heard of were craftsman made. > I had an applewood complex molder last year. Unmarked but well made. I also got at the same time, an applewood sash, again unmarked and probably user made. But it's a nice piece and in the keep pile. I have had a few other oddballs, I've had a couple of walnut planes, had a really nice mahagony spar plane. I also have, although it's in rough shape, an H. Chapin rosewood smoother. They are out there... Tony _______________________________________________ User/Collector of Old Woodworking Tools http://www.geocities.com/PicketFence/1395 ______________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 58987 (thread 25566) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-03-04 19:15:00 Subject: Re: Enough with the steenkin *b*y - Fruitwood woodies question Galoots, It was opined that "Fruitwood planes are pretty scarce. Other than the occasional applewood plow, exotic woods like boxwood and lignum are more common" It might be regional, but in my area I see 10 times or greater fruitwoo d planes - mostly plows - to every boxwood. I do see a large number of tools ascribed to be "boxwood" that are real ly apple, pecan and pear. In the current PATINA listing we had to tell several consignors that their boxwood tool wasn't boxwood. While this is a broad generalization, if you can see any pattern to the wood at all, it is likely not boxwood. I actually prefer some fruitwood planes over boxwood. A few of them ha ve spectacular grain coloring. And, because they are not boxwood, I can buy them cheaper! Karl ++++ End of thread 25566 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25567 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58914 (thread 25567) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-03-03 23:57:00 Subject: FREE brass screws! Greetings GG's A few months ago I stumbled into a deal on some brass screws....they are about .162 head dia X 3/.8 long....tiny little things....... I have about 500 times as many of them as I ever could POSSIBLY use, so?....what better place to offer them..... don't know what it would cost to ship them, but if you want some let me know..... until this turns into something spendy I'm happy to send them off to better homes than they have now..... If you'd cover the postage that would be great.... Oh, BTW, they are Phillips flat heads.......... don't be bashful, if you can use a hundred or more, just say so... Cheers Tom ++++ End of thread 25567 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25568 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58915 (thread 25568) ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 1999-03-04 00:01:00 Subject: Re: Enough with the steenkin *b*y Gentle Ones, I'm pretty sure there's something in the FAQ, and also possibly in the charter/greeting message that advises subscribers to contact the list moms directly (that would be me, and Ken Stagg ) when they come across what they feel is objectionable or off-topic postings. Ebay is a source of many pictures, *interesting* descriptions, and believe it or not, tools. The only hard objection the list owners have raised relates to posts concerning ebay as a financial investment, the inner-workings of ebay. There are constant updates on what's happening at Witte's, Urchulla's, Brown's, Cranes, etc. I don't see much difference with ebay. As for folks who notify the list of something they're selling on ebay, as long as it doesn't amount to spam, and if you're a member in good standing yadda yadda yadda, I don't think there's a problem. Know this, however, I'd say the quality of content drops, the more oldtools resembles a continuous relisting of "Hey, I just saw this on ebay!" versus the odd "You're not gonna believe this one..." To reiterate, if you as a galoot feel a post is inappropriate, please contact the list owners directly. Thanks, Paddy ++++ End of thread 25568 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25569 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58916 (thread 25569) ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1999-03-04 00:02:00 Subject: Addis heat-treat help sought Greetings again GG's I picked up a nice Addis Vee bent parting tool, but some Id-EE-OH has heated it up and colllapsed the Vee. It is now annealed and mis-shapen. I most certainly can heat it up and put a flair back in the Vee, but I'm curious to know what precautions I should take to assure stability of the steel, and what steps I should take to re-temper it properly. Somewhere in my archives I have Ron Hocks excellent treatise on heat treating. I'm just wondering abou;the fact that this thing has already been heated up once, now to do it again etc etc...what happens to the structure of the steel etc etc. These are too nice to just experiment on...I'd like to put this one back to work. Advice anyone???? TIA Tom ---- Start of Message 58962 (thread 25569) ---- From: "George Langford, Sc.D." Date: 1999-03-04 18:53:00 Subject: Re: Addis heat-treat help sought Hi Tom and parting Galoots ! Tom Johnson queried The List: > I picked up a nice Addis Vee bent parting tool, but some Id-EE-OH > has heated it up and colllapsed the Vee. It is now annealed and > mis-shapen. I most certainly can heat it up and put a flair back > in the Vee, but I'm curious to know what precautions I should take > to assure stability of the steel, and what steps I should take to > re-temper it properly. > Somewhere in my archives I have Ron Hocks excellent treatise on > heat treating. I'm just wondering abou;the fact that this thing > has already been heated up once, now to do it again etc etc...what > happens to the structure of the steel etc etc. These are too nice > to just experiment on...I'd like to put this one back to work. > Advice anyone???? > TIA Tom OK - here goes. The concept of a bent (wood-lathe ?) parting tool sounds like the essence of instability, but mebbe what you're talking about is a gooseneck curve ... Now I suppose you want to bash it back into a proper curve. That could almost be done "warm" but to be sure that the steel will handle the bending and bashing, it's better to heat it quite hot - orange, let's say, and do the forming. Then cool it slowly, as in a bed of wood ashes; certainly don't quench it in anything. After it's cooled off, reheat to a cherry red and quench just the tip (the part with the cutting edges) in cold water. Be sure not to swish it side to side. Instead, pump it up and down as though you are stabbing the water. That will agitate the water without unsymmetrically cooling the steel. As soon as the tool stops sizzling in the water, take it out & let the rest of the tool cool off. Now you can temper it at 300 F or so in SWMBO's oven. If you still have the handle on it, then the best bet is to use a piece of emery cloth to scrub the scale & oxide off the freshly quenched tip so that bright metal is exposed, and then gently heat the tool well behind the edge with a propane torch until the area next to the cutting edge starts to become a straw color. Do not apply the flame anywhere near the cutting edge, or your work will be for naught. Once the tool is tempered (tempering is required; it is not optional; if you want any kind of decent performance from this tool, you gotta temper it) then it will have to be re-ground and sharpened. Take a good deal of metal off the cutting edge - at least 0.01 inch - to remove the steel which has lost its carbon to oxidation during the forging and heat treating. Subsequently, for several more cycles of sharpening, the tool's edge will be quite hard & wear resistant. Later, after you have ground off 1/16 inch or so during years of re-sharpening the edge, you will have ground off the hardest metal, and it will then be time to harden the edge again. The steel can stand a whole lot of hardenings and re-heat-treatments so long as you do not overheat it past cherry red. Repeated heatings to the forging temperature without actual forging or serious bashing will harm the steel by coarsening the grain structure. Therefore, don't play around with exact shaping if that will involve reheating the tool a number of times. Hope this helps. Best regards, George Langford amenex@e... ---- Start of Message 58989 (thread 25569) ---- From: Ron Hock Date: 1999-03-04 19:26:00 Subject: Re: Addis heat-treat help sought > > Somewhere in my archives I have Ron Hocks excellent treatise on > > heat treating. GOTO: http://www.hocktools.com/diyht.html for that excellent treatise. ++++ End of thread 25569 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25570 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58917 (thread 25570) ---- From: "Comstock" Date: 1999-03-04 00:10:00 Subject: re tanstafl Fellow Galoots, Call me crazy but I thought it meant The Aging Neanderthal Says Take A Flying Leap . down in the mud Patrick P ++++ End of thread 25570 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25571 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58918 (thread 25571) ---- From: The Boldts Date: 1999-03-04 00:20:00 Subject: Expanding on the definition provided by Jack, it seems that the Gen-X'ers or Gen-Next'ers (or whoever) have added a conotation something like: "Well DUH !!" which translates to: - "_You_ should have thought of that!" - "How could _you_ have been so stupid?" Regards, BOBthe45guy ++++ End of thread 25571 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25572 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58919 (thread 25572) ---- From: jcrum@a... (John Crum) Date: 1999-03-04 00:20:00 Subject: Redwoods Saved! Good News, Galoots! Some old growth stands of redwoods have been spared! Our gubmint is buying 10,000 acres of forest from Pacific Lumber Co. for $480 million. That's a measly $96,000 per acre. Read the whole story for yourself: http://www.uniontrib.com/news/state/990303-0010_7n3forest.html or an even better story at: http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/STATE/t000019527.1.html Oh, and I hope you all use your share of the 200 million board feet of lumber that the Co. will cut _each year_!!! jc ---- Start of Message 58947 (thread 25572) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-03-04 13:17:00 Subject: Re: Redwoods Saved! Galoots, Yep, we need to save trees so we can use them in our wooodworking. Nex t time I'm on the Left Coast, I'm going to those trees and get me one to make a plane - a looooong jointer I think. FYI, according to the historical book, "They Felled the Redwoods", the number one Redwood timbering company was the Sanger Lumber Company!!! So, it is in my genes. *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * *********************************************** ++++ End of thread 25572 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25573 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58920 (thread 25573) ---- From: Roger Books Date: 1999-03-04 01:09:00 Subject: Wood question? Well, I needed a handle for one of my Flea Market acquisitions yesterday, so I cut up this stick some kids had left in my back yard. I couldn't have picked something better if I had known what I was doing. Nice hard white wood, straight grain, Nice even curlies from the plane, and even with 8 sides it feels good in my hand. Now, I have one of the same type tree growing in my back yard, only a bit bigger (8 inch diameter) and, for the life of me I can't figure out what it is. The bark is smooth and a reddish tint. It has little lines that are about 1/4" long and run parrallel to the ground. The limbs zig-zag and at each zig there is a leaf (or would be if it had leaves right now). When split you can see small golden rays that run from the center out. Can anyone tell me what this is? It doesn't look like something I would make furniture out of, but I'm wondering if it wouldn't be suitable for making planes (the bug bites.) Especially after hearing that up to 90% of the beech trees may be destroyed by bugs and fungus I'm wondering about alternatives. TIA Roger Books ++++ End of thread 25573 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25574 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58922 (thread 25574) ---- From: Richard MacArthur Date: 1999-03-04 01:32:00 Subject: WTB #5 1/2 parts I came upon a 5 1/2 c type 12(big jack plane) that needs a blade and chipbreaker-If I'm unable to find I guess I'll get the blade(2 1/4") from Ron Hock and grind a #6 chipbreaker to work Thanks Richard and Homer(hound) in Virginia ++++ End of thread 25574 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25575 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58924 (thread 25575) ---- From: D & B Brown Date: 1999-03-04 02:28:00 Subject: FS & Yost pic Since I posted my "thinly" veiled gloat about finding a Yost pattern makers vise, cheap, I've received several requests for pics. It has now been cleaned up & installed. Originally I was going to repaint it but couldn't make up my mind whether it was originally black or dark blue, being as there is only the barest trace of paint on it. I did a little general cleaning & opted for the "organic" look. It is complete including the original handle (I think) & fully functional. BTW, the jaw size is 8" x 16". It is because of this find that I have an FS at all this month. http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/8162/yv.jpg FOR SALE: (see terms at the bottom) #1 Having trouble making up your mind whether to make your own vises out o f wood or to get "store bought" ones? Tired of the girly-man references when your bench/vises are seen by your friends? (Any similarities between the aforementioned descriptive phrase & Chris D's "Chi-lite" bench are purely coincidental ;0) Look no further if it is the manly model you desire. To witt, a pair of dead flat & square 3 1/2" x 7" x 20" vise faces dimensioned (by me) out of 16/4 KD hard rock maple. I have already cut (as you can see) the traditional radiuses on the ends, only minor clean up of saw marks remain to be done. They are slightly oversized to clean up to the above finished dimensions. Add to that a pair of matching vintage US made iron bench screws w/nuts & one original handle. Shouldn't be difficult to fashion a second matching handle . What is the price for what would clearly be an upgrade for most of the free world you say? Same as it cost me, except you get a fair amount of labor gratis. $100.00 all http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/8162/wv.jpg #2 Matching pair of Greenfield plow irons, 1/2" & 5/8". The 1/2" is full length with almost imperceptable mushrooming at the top. The 5/8" is somewhat shorter & has a nick that will have to be removed. Also minor mushrooming (slightly more than the 1/2") Free of rust & pitting. $15.00/pr. #3 Stanley #60 1" chisel. Virtually unused. $5.00 TERMS: I'm not going to spend a lot of time with this. Standard oldtool terms if you're known. You pay the amount agreed upon plus the actual postage on the package when it arrives. That means a check in the mail to me within 3 days of receipt. David Brown ++++ End of thread 25575 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25576 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58927 (thread 25576) ---- From: "Bill Taggart" Date: 1999-03-04 02:32:00 Subject: FS: #78 and Wards #4 My first official For Sale post... Yikes! This must be some sort of milepost in the downward slide... I've gotta sell these to get rid of duplicates (duplicates! yeesh) and get a bit of cash to justify purchasing one or two others.The following are offered under standard Oldtools terms, if I recognize your name from the list. This means that: 1. I am making my best effort to describe the tool as well as I can; 2. The first person that says "I want it" as indicated by the date/time stamp on my computer gets it; 3. I'll then send the tool for your approval; 4. If you like it, you send a check to me for the price of the tool, plus shipping; 5. If you are unsatisfied for any reason, you have my apologies, just send it back at your expense; 6. Shipping is not included in the price listed here. I feel like a lawyer saying all that, but I figure it's better to be sure that everyone is all clear... Stanley #78 duplex rabbet plane - Purchased from MofA and never used by me. Absolutely complete with fence, depth stop, and nicker (which is untouched and as new). Not sure of the exact type/date, but it's before the thumb-lever depth adjuster - doesn't have one. Very good condition - just has a bit of a coating of grunge, since I never got around to cleaning and using it. Will clean up to be a great user. $60.00 Wards-Master #4 smooth plane - A nice user. Nothing really exciting, but it's all there and in good condition. I think it's basically a Stanley with a "Wards" lever cap. Never bothered to place the type. I think the knob and tote are maple, stained a brownish color. It's been my user for about two years, but I've now got two very pretty Stanley #4s, including a perfect type 16/17. This one makes a great user for a good price. $22.00 Thanks for looking - I'm sure when I get home, I'll find more to sell... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) On the road in Chattanooga, TN ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ++++ End of thread 25576 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25577 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58931 (thread 25577) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-03-04 03:40:00 Subject: A really old tool The following is claimed to be 400,000 years old : http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=73516815 Anyone done a type study on these ? Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 58948 (thread 25577) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-03-04 13:24:00 Subject: Re: A really old tool Paul wrote (snipped) "The following is claimed to be 400,000 years old : http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=73516815 Anyone done a type study on these ?" Yes!!! I have often seen in US Park Service pubs and National Geo. analysis and breakdowns of such tools, describing their age, tribe and site of its making and details on innovations in constructing the item. Karl - who sees the current bid at over $100 and has started to make a few to sell. ---- Start of Message 58954 (thread 25577) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-03-04 15:16:00 Subject: Re: A really old tool At 10:40 PM 3/3/99 -0500, Paul Pedersen wrote: > >The following is claimed to be 400,000 years old : > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=73516815 I wonder how the age of this tool is determined? This is a primitive tool but clearly it was made with some skill and care. Adam ---- Start of Message 58966 (thread 25577) ---- From: Will Flor Date: 1999-03-04 16:26:00 Subject: Re: A really old tool ---Adam Whiteson wrote: > > At 10:40 PM 3/3/99 -0500, Paul Pedersen wrote: > > > >The following is claimed to be 400,000 years old : > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=73516815 > > I wonder how the age of this tool is determined? > This is a primitive tool but clearly it was made with some skill and care. > The age of an artifact such as this can only be determined by examining its context, meaning its relationship to other things that were found with it. For example, if it was found at the same level (if it is that old and from a non-desert region of India, it would have been underground most of that time) as the remains of a fire, and the charcoal of that fire was reliably dated to 400,000 years ago, an archaeologist might make the age claim of the artifact as well. Once an item like the axe is removed from its context without careful excavation notes being made, there can be no real determination of age. The artifact can be studied to determine how it was made, which might rule out extreme age (if modern techniques were found to be used, for example) and sometimes stone artifacts are covered with a patina-like coating (one kind of which is called "desert varnish") which rules out extreme youth. However, if appropriate techniques were used to make it, and there's no patina, there usually isn't any way to tell if it's 400,000 years old or 40 hours old. -Will Flor, chemist, engineer, software wrangler, armchair archaeologist, neander woodworker New Berlin, Wisconsin USA _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 58981 (thread 25577) ---- From: "Flowers, Curt" Date: 1999-03-04 18:22:00 Subject: RE: A really old tool Likely the hand axe was dated by association. That is the strata the object was located in was of a known age, geologically. It may also have been dated based on items found near it, which matched items found elsewhere and dated by some means. Possibly, also, dated by radiocarbon dating of some organic material found in the same area. -Curt, Illinois, who took some archeology courses in college. And who is also sure there is a bona fide archeologist in this list who will correct me where wrong. > -----Original Message----- > From: Adam Whiteson [SMTP:adam@w...] > At 10:40 PM 3/3/99 -0500, Paul Pedersen wrote: > > > >The following is claimed to be 400,000 years old : > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=73516815 > > I wonder how the age of this tool is determined? > This is a primitive tool but clearly it was made with some skill and care. > > Adam > ---- Start of Message 59087 (thread 25577) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-03-06 06:35:00 Subject: Re: A really old tool On Thu, 04 Mar 1999 07:16:22 -0800 Adam Whiteson writes: >At 10:40 PM 3/3/99 -0500, Paul Pedersen wrote: >> >>The following is claimed to be 400,000 years old : >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=73516815 > >I wonder how the age of this tool is determined? >This is a primitive tool but clearly it was made with some skill and >care. The depth of the patina is one way to estimate the age of a stone tool. I seem to recall that obsidian absorbs moisture from the air and the depth ot which the moisture has penetrated can be used to estimate how long ago the surface was exposed. Frequently objects that cannot be dated from their intrinsic properties are dated based on _context_ . That is they are assumed to be as old as nearby objects (like charcoal) that can be dated. This is why artifacts that have been removed from their as-found setting without proper documentation of the dig are basicly worthless. ---- Start of Message 59093 (thread 25577) ---- From: Joe Hurray Date: 1999-03-06 13:19:00 Subject: Re: A really old tool >At 10:40 PM 3/3/99 -0500, Paul Pedersen wrote: > >The following is claimed to be 400,000 years old: >wondering how a tool this old could be dated, You are all overlooking the obvious here: It was found "new in original box", with manufacturer's label intact. This label provided the manufacturer's name, address, and date. When it was dug up, the archeologist only had a brief time to read the label before the box disintegrated, having been exposed to air and light for the first time in 400,000 years. Now you know the rest of the story.... Joe in NH ---- Start of Message 59107 (thread 25577) ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 1999-03-06 22:41:00 Subject: Re: A really old tool At 08:19 AM 3/6/99 -0500, Joe Hurray wrote: >>At 10:40 PM 3/3/99 -0500, Paul Pedersen wrote: >> >>The following is claimed to be 400,000 years old: >>wondering how a tool this old could be dated, > >You are all overlooking the obvious here: It was found "new in original >box", with manufacturer's label intact. This label provided the >manufacturer's name, address, and date. When it was dug up, the >archeologist only had a brief time to read the label before the box >disintegrated, having been exposed to air and light for the first time >in 400,000 years. Even better are the old tools found buried with the manufacturer. ++++ End of thread 25577 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25578 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58933 (thread 25578) ---- From: Greg Stamer Date: 1999-03-04 04:32:00 Subject: How to Fix Sloppy Lateral Adj Lever Hello Fellow Knuckledraggers, I have a Stanley 3C type 12 that is in excellent shape except for a very loose lateral adjustment lever. There is play both horizontally and vertically and the lever is loose enough that even slight hand movements are enough to cause the base of the lever to clack against alternating sides of the iron (sides of the slot). This is obviously not the end of the world but I put it just behind "fingernails-on-the-blackboard" in terms of shudder quotient. I have zero experience with rivets and pins. Is there a safe way to fix this without harming the frog? Please share the details. Thanks Greg Stamer ---- Start of Message 58934 (thread 25578) ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 1999-03-04 05:35:00 Subject: Re: How to Fix Sloppy Lateral Adj Lever In a message dated 3/3/99 8:34:08 PM, gstamer@m... writes: << I have zero experience with rivets and pins. Is there a safe way to fix this without harming the frog? Please share the details. >> Use a Dremel tool with an abrasive-cutoff wheel to grind-off the rivet from the top. Take it down just to the level of the lateral lever. Remove the lateral lever. Straighten lateral lever as needed. Push out the old rivet. Install a 3-pound tinner's rivet from the underside of the frog. A 3-pound tinner's rivet is just the right length. Install the lateral lever and hold by hand. Place on a convenient anvil. Carefully pein the tinner's rivet using a light (about 4 oz) ball pein hammer and short strokes. Guide the hammer with your thumb to ensure that you don't strike the lateral disk or the frog. Rotate the rivet from the bottom frequently to ensure a good set. When the rivet appears to be getting tight, proceed with care. When the rivet is tight enough to suit your taste, stop. Note: depending upon the frog, a 4-pound tinner's rivet may be preferable. But a 4-pound tinner's rivet is much longer than a 3-pound tinner's rivet, and will have to be cut to suit. Use of a 4-pound tinner's rivet wil likely require that you enlarge the hole in the lateral lever very slightly. Peter. ---- Start of Message 58943 (thread 25578) ---- From: Paul and Teresa Jones Date: 1999-03-04 12:14:00 Subject: Re: How to Fix Sloppy Lateral Adj Lever Greg Stamer asks: > I have zero experience with rivets and pins. Is there a safe way to fix > this without harming the frog? Please share the details. I've found that some careful peening of the back side of the rivet can do the job. The trick is to support the frog so that you can do the peening without unintentionally cracking the frog. I've had good success using an old blade underneath the frog to support it, while providing some clearance relief for the washer and depth lever using the blade slot. You'll need to remove the lever cap screw and the depth adjusting knob first. Now let's try some bad ASCII art: | | @ | | Center punch Frog @ @ | | @ @ / @ @ |-| | Rivet @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@|@@@@ | | ___---------------- Adj lever and washer ********************************************* Old blade ----------------- |_| --------------------------- | Block of wood | | Block of wood | ----------------- ^ --------------------------- | | Depth lever (hangs through the blade slot) My drawing may stink, but just try setting a blade (no chip breaker) on top of the frog and you'll see what I mean. A few light taps around the edges of the rivet is usually sufficient to tighten it up. It's much easier than trying to replace the rivet. Paul Jones ---- Start of Message 58946 (thread 25578) ---- From: NLutz10449@a... Date: 1999-03-04 13:01:00 Subject: Tinning rivets. was: Re: How to Fix Sloppy Lateral Adj Lever In a message dated 99-03-04 00:47:38 EST, PeterH5322@a... writes: << Note: depending upon the frog, a 4-pound tinner's rivet may be preferable. But a 4-pound tinner's rivet is much longer than a 3-pound tinner's rivet, and will have to be cut to suit. Use of a 4-pound tinner's rivet wil likely require that you enlarge the hole in the lateral lever very slightly. >> This repair was mentioned recently and comes up again. My question is where does the everyman find these rivets in small quantity? Since I'm not in the HVAC trade (that's Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning, Jeff, or Paddy, I forget), I don't have access to these in my toolbox. Erik von Sneidern Syracuse, NY ---- Start of Message 58977 (thread 25578) ---- From: "Brent D. Beach" Date: 1999-03-04 17:52:00 Subject: Re: How to Fix Sloppy Lateral Adj Lever On Thu, 4 Mar, PeterH5322@a... wrote: >Install a 3-pound tinner's rivet ... Tom Johnson probably has a lifetime supply of these rivets he just happened to pick out recently, but is too shy to admit it. But then On Thu, 04 Mar, Paul and Teresa Jones wrote: >I've found that some careful peening of the back side of the >rivet can do the job. The trick is to support the frog so that >you can do the peening without unintentionally cracking the >frog. I've had good success using an old blade underneath the >frog to support it, while providing some clearance relief for >the washer and depth lever using the blade slot. This is the best "Why didn't I think of that" solution to any tool fixit problem I have seen in the last few months. Brent Brent Beach, Victoria, BC, CA ++++ End of thread 25578 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25579 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58935 (thread 25579) ---- From: jcrum@a... (John Crum) Date: 1999-03-04 06:40:00 Subject: Dunbar's chest Galoots, I haven't been paying attention again! Could some kind and gentle galoot point me to the recent magazine issue that contains Mike Dunbar's chest? I've looked in the magazine rack, and while I did see several impressive chests, none belong to Dunbar... thanks, jc John Crum National Center for Microscopy and Imaging Research UC San Diego (619)534-4583 voice (619)534-7497 fax ---- Start of Message 58945 (thread 25579) ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 1999-03-04 15:47:00 Subject: Re: Dunbar's chest At 10:40 PM 3/3/99 -0800, you wrote: >Galoots, > >I haven't been paying attention again! Could some kind and gentle galoot >point me to the recent magazine issue that contains Mike Dunbar's chest? >I've looked in the magazine rack, and while I did see several impressive >chests, none belong to Dunbar... Fine Woodworking, February 1999 ++++ End of thread 25579 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25580 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58937 (thread 25580) ---- From: "Frank Filippone" Date: 1999-03-04 07:38:00 Subject: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? With all the recent info on Bow Saws, I thought I would ask,,,,,, Do you cut on the push stroke or the pull stroke? Why? What benefit do you feel you are getting over the other approach? Frank Filippone red735i@e... Attachment winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1k Download Replies Author Date 45383 Re: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? Tim Swihart Thu 3/4/1999 45401 Re: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? Tom Holloway Thu 3/4/1999 45397 Re: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? Haney, Kevin (CIT) Thu 3/4/1999 45484 Re: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? Paul Womack Fri 3/5/1999 45486 Re: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? Don McConnell Fri 3/5/1999 45499 Re: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? Lawrence H. Smith Fri 3/5/1999 45490 Re: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? Paul Pedersen Fri 3/5/1999 45501 Re: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? Frank Filippone Fri 3/5/1999 45509 Re: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? Mike Yazel Fri 3/5/1999 ---- Start of Message 58938 (thread 25580) ---- From: "Tim Swihart" Date: 1999-03-04 08:33:00 Subject: Re: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? Frank Filippone asked: > > With all the recent info on Bow Saws, I thought I would ask,,,,,, > Do you cut on the push stroke or the pull stroke? > > Why? > What benefit do you feel you are getting over the other approach? I cut on the push stroke with my bow saw. Why? Well, when cutting out Windsor chair seats, the wood is clamped horizontally on a corner of the bench with a reasonable amount of the line I'm going to cut along sticking out from the corner (i.e.: there's no bench under it). Cutting on the push stroke means I can hold the saw vertically and get the major muscle groups into the action as I thrust the saw downwards and into the cut. That's how Mike Dunbar teaches cutting out seats (he has a slight allergy to Pine saw dust so if you insist on using a bandsaw to cut out your seat, he leaves the room and nobody likes to be the one that forced the instructor out of the room so everybody learns the bow saw). :-) I've also used my bow saw for trimming riven wood to length (for spindles when what was supposed to be an arm or bow blank didn't rive properly or has more twist than I feel like wrestling with). I suppose I could cut those on the pull stroke, but for me, the push stroke is more familiar. Just my two cents, Tim S. ---- Start of Message 58952 (thread 25580) ---- From: "Haney, Kevin (CIT)" Date: 1999-03-04 14:14:00 Subject: RE: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? A bow saw is just a big coping saw and so should cut on the pull stroke. This is because the thinness of the blade doesn't let you get a good cut pushing it (same with Japanese saws). Turn your saw around and try it--you'll see. Kevin Haney -----Original Message----- From: Frank Filippone [SMTP:red735i@e...] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 2:38 AM To: Old Tools Subject: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? With all the recent info on Bow Saws, I thought I would ask,,,,,, Do you cut on the push stroke or the pull stroke? Why? What benefit do you feel you are getting over the other approach? Frank Filippone red735i@e... ---- Start of Message 58956 (thread 25580) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-03-04 14:50:00 Subject: Re: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? At 12:33 AM -0800 3/4/99, Tim Swihart wrote: >>Frank Filippone asked: >> What benefit do you feel you are getting over the other approach? > And Tim Swihart responded: >I cut on the push stroke with my bow saw. [snip Dunbar Chair Class >anecdote]... for me, the push stroke is more familiar. I also push, both frame saw for resawing and bowsaw for smaller stuff and curves. Part is the "it just feels right" that Tim alludes to. But there's also the matter of control of cut and visual attention to cut line. To me it's more natural, and easier to keep the cut where I want it to be, if I am looking at the line right next to, or under, the place where the cutting teeth are entering the work as I push the saw toward the wood. I understand the rationale of the pull cut with Japanese saws, the thin blade of which would buckle with a push cutting stroke. But the purpose of the frame in the Western bow/frame design is to put tension on the thin blade, thus facilitating the push cut. This is reversed on small *coping* saws, however. I usually use a coping saw with a "bird's mouth" jig (of the type illustrated on Ralph Brendler's Shaker Box tutorial http://www.mcs.net/~brendler/oldtools/ShakerBoxes/#Band Oh, gee, I guess that *is* a picture of me cutting veneer with a frame saw ;-), with the work held horizontally on top of the jig, cut line on the top surface, handle of saw under the jig, and the coping saw set to cut while pulling down through the work. This way, the operater looks down on the line while pulling the coping saw down as it cuts, and the view of line and cut is not obstructed by the handle and ham fist of the operator. Tom Holloway, thinking Kevin Haney (whose posting came in as I was drafting this) ought to try tightening his bowsaw a little tighter, and then try the push stroke. My blades are tight enough that if you ping them with a fingernail you get a definite musical "boing," and they don't even hint at buckling on the push cut. THH ---- Start of Message 59039 (thread 25580) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-03-05 06:04:00 Subject: RE: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? > > A bow saw is just a big coping saw and so should cut on the pull stroke. Thi s > is because the thinness of the blade doesn't let you get a good cut pushing i t > (same with Japanese saws). Turn your saw around and try it--you'll see. > > Kevin Haney The conclusion may-or-may-not be correct, but the logic... isn't. The thin blade = pulling equation only makes sense if the blade is being operated from one end (in many Japanese saws, as mentioned). However, in a saw where both ends are held by a frame, this does not apply. Most frame mitre saws (Nobex etc) cut on the push stroke, so that the timber is pushed hard into the supporting frame. The blade is indeed "pulled". But by the further end of the frame. BugBear. (who, on the basis of this discussion, would like to propose the normal western compass/pad saw as one of the worst designs ever. Thin blade, big teeth, cuts on the push stroke!) ---- Start of Message 59041 (thread 25580) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1999-03-05 11:45:00 Subject: RE: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? Paul Womack concluded his message on frame saws with: >(who, on the basis of this discussion, would like to propose >the normal western compass/pad saw as one of the worst >designs ever. Thin blade, big teeth, cuts on the push stroke!) Fred T. Hodgson, in _Hand Saws, Their Use, Care and Abuse_, 1883, makes the following comments on compass and pad saws (pp. 32-3): **************** "... the common compass-saw. ... In using this saw great care must be taken, when following lines around curves having short radii, or the saw will kink and buckle, and sometimes break. To prevent these saws from snapping or buckling, I have frequently filed them so that the teeth would perform the cutting on the pull motion; that is, I have simply reversed the order of the teeth so that all the cutting would be done when the saw was drawn towards me. ... Pad Saws, or as they are sometimes called, Socket Saws, are something narrower and thinner in the blades than compass saws, and are used for finer work. ... It is more particularly desirable that saws of this kind should have the teeth so shaped that all the cutting will be done on the PULL STROKE, and it always pays the workman to recut the teeth with a file, making them so that their work will all be accomplished by the return motion of the saw. It seems very strange that manufacturers and users do not recognize this principle in saw making and using. ..." ***************** This seems sensible on the face of it, and I've wondered since reading this a number of years ago if there is any compelling reason these have continued to be manufactured to operate on the push stroke (other than the strong western tradition of saws cutting on the push)? Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 59045 (thread 25580) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-03-05 13:32:00 Subject: RE: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? Paul Womack writes : >(who, on the basis of this discussion, would like to propose >the normal western compass/pad saw as one of the worst >designs ever. Thin blade, big teeth, cuts on the push stroke!) Ah, but it's supposed to used on the pull stroke. Quoting from Grimshaw on Saws (1880): "As regards the question of pulling or pushing cut, those of us who have smiled - perhaps audibly - at the Japanese with their backward working saws, should bear one thing in mind before condemning in toto the pulling cut - that for a keyhole or any other flexible-bladed saws, the backward or pulling cut is the best; and our own usage with that exasperating implement the keyhole saw, is much more ludicrous and unphilosophical than the pulling out of the Niphonese." The book goes on to show and picture of two keyhole saws, one with forward-facing teeth labeled 'wrong' and the other with backward-facing teeth labeled 'right'. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 59054 (thread 25580) ---- From: "Lawrence H. Smith" Date: 1999-03-05 15:22:00 Subject: RE: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? >This seems sensible on the face of it, and I've wondered since reading this >a number of years ago if there is any compelling reason these have >continued to be manufactured to operate on the push stroke (other than the >strong western tradition of saws cutting on the push)? All the ones I've seen, this is simply a matter of blade installation (swap ends) rather than refiling. Lord knows my coping saw cuts on the pull, because the frame flexes far too much to cut on the push without breaking the blade frequently. Since the ends of the blades are identical, this is a no-brainer, and has nothing to do with manufacture, and everything to do with use. -Lawrence H Smith, Librarian/Computarian for Buxton School and Woodworker -lsmith@s... Cats, Coffee, Chocolate... Vices to live by. ---- Start of Message 59056 (thread 25580) ---- From: "Frank Filippone" Date: 1999-03-05 15:39:00 Subject: RE: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? Snip However, in a saw where both ends are held by a frame, this does not apply. Most frame mitre saws (Nobex etc) cut on the push stroke, so that the timber is pushed hard into the supporting frame. The blade is indeed "pulled". But by the further end of the frame. Snp This conclusion is incorrect. At the moment the tooth intersects the wood, the blade is in compression compared to its rest state. That rest state is prestressed by the blade and yes it is in compression compared to the blade not in the saw. But, the"other end" of the saw is passive. It pre-stresses the blade, yes. It is the comparison to the steady state prestressed rest state ) that is important in determining compression vs tension. The way to determine compression vs tension is to judge what happens if, on the movement of the blade, the saw were to hit an immovable object. How would the blade deflect? If the blade were to collapse, it is a compressed motion. If it were to stretch and eventually pull itself apart, that is a tension stroke. You make a good point on the frame mitre saws.... Pushing the timber into the supporting frame is critically important in accurizing a mitre saw. It provides a reference plane for holding the wood in position... now if you were to reverse the poosition of the HANDLE of that saw, such that you PULLED the blade through the wood, and also INTO the frame, that would be 1 improved saw, at least from the point of view of tensioning the blade. OTOH, it might be real awkward......... interesting to note that this type of saw is Western, and does not exist in Eastern Joinery, to the best of my knowledge..... Frank ---- Start of Message 59064 (thread 25580) ---- From: Mike Yazel Date: 1999-03-05 18:05:00 Subject: Re: Bow Saws, Push or Pull ? Frank Filippone wrote: > > > The blade is indeed "pulled". But by the further end of the frame. > Snp > > This conclusion is incorrect. At the moment the tooth intersects the wood, > the blade is in compression compared to its rest state. That rest state is > prestressed by the blade and yes it is in compression compared to the blade > not in the saw. But, the"other end" of the saw is passive. It > pre-stresses the blade, yes. It is the comparison to the steady state > prestressed rest state ) that is important in determining compression vs > tension. > > The way to determine compression vs tension is to judge what happens if, on > the movement of the blade, the saw were to hit an immovable object. How > would the blade deflect? If the blade were to collapse, it is a compressed > motion. If it were to stretch and eventually pull itself apart, that is a > tension stroke. > > > Frank > I disagree, your anology only holds up if the rear or handle end of the blade is held in an imoveable manner. In most frame saw arrangements the rear or handle end of the blade anchor is free to float in a rearward direction. If the blade of such a saw were to be grasped in a vise and forward pressure applied to the handle the rear blade anchor will simply float back into the frame while the front of the frame attempts to pull the blade forward under tension. Compresion could only be introduced into the blade if the rear mount were fixed to the frame which is not common in most tension frame saw designs. Mike Yazel > -- ++++ End of thread 25580 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25581 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58940 (thread 25581) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-03-04 10:16:00 Subject: Duh! > Now then, the people who usually exercise such a touching concern for > my education have so far neglected to explain the meaning of the 'duh' > that I read quite frequently. Many thanks to the several kind souls who have offered enlightenment. Jeff ++++ End of thread 25581 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25582 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58949 (thread 25582) ---- From: "Tom Dugan" Date: 1999-03-04 13:54:00 Subject: Mustard gas Page 1 of today's Washington Post Metro section has an article on the Army's plan for disposing of mustard gas at the Aberdeen (MD) Proving Ground. Seems it breaks down when mixed with nothing more than hot water, and the Army's been given the go-ahead to begin building the disposal plant. A certain Large Government Contractor will begin the work later this year. OLDTOOLS content? I'm guessing a certain former maker of dovetail saws is pretty happy about his career decision right about now. Tom Dugan Still Living in Lower Marlboro [In Maryland, but a fair way from Aberdeen] ---- Start of Message 58960 (thread 25582) ---- From: "DuPrie, James" Date: 1999-03-04 15:14:00 Subject: RE: Mustard gas I find myself having to dispose of mustard gas the day after I eat a lot of mustard. My preferred method is to lead a little to one side and let it vent naturally. Oldtool content: sure does help keep folks out of the shop, allowing uninterrupted oldtool playing. Proof: last night I spent a couple of hours trying to sharpen some super cheapo carving chisels that my dad left me. Guess what? That nice shiny chrome plating makes sharp[ening a b**ch... --JD > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Dugan [mailto:Tom.Dugan@g...] > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 8:54 AM > To: oldtools > Subject: Mustard gas > > > Page 1 of today's Washington Post Metro section has an article on the > Army's plan for disposing of mustard gas at the Aberdeen (MD) Proving > Ground. Seems it breaks down when mixed with nothing more than hot > water, and the Army's been given the go-ahead to begin building the > disposal plant. A certain Large Government Contractor will begin > the work later this year. > > OLDTOOLS content? I'm guessing a certain former maker of dovetail > saws is pretty happy about his career decision right about now. > > Tom Dugan > Still Living in Lower Marlboro > [In Maryland, but a fair way from Aberdeen] > > > -- > > ++++ End of thread 25582 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25583 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58955 (thread 25583) ---- From: "John L. Odom" Date: 1999-03-04 14:37:00 Subject: Attention: List Mom Please put me on digest status for a few weeks. I have a Japanese Exchange teacher with me for a few weeks and I can't keep up.. I'm sorry to ask this publicly, but I have tried several times only to get "INVALID REQUEST" as a reply. Thanks, John Odom ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ++++ End of thread 25583 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25584 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58957 (thread 25584) ---- From: "John L. Odom" Date: 1999-03-04 15:03:00 Subject: availabillity of 12-24 screws Rick garza commented on the unavailabillity of screws in the 12-24 size. They are available, but not commonly. one fastener dealer here in chattanooga stocks them and I occasionaly see them in a hardware store. They are uncommon. John Odom ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---- Start of Message 59025 (thread 25584) ---- From: Walter Barry Date: 1999-03-05 05:30:00 Subject: RE: availabillity of 12-24 screws > Rick garza commented on the unavailabillity of screws in the 12-24 size. > They are available, but not commonly. one fastener dealer here in > chattanooga stocks them and I occasionaly see them in a hardware store. > They are uncommon. Seems like everytime I get beat to the tools at a garage sale, the scraps usually include a bunch of taps and dies. And if you "dig deep enough" you'll often find a few minty ones or some uncommon thread sizes. Well at least many years ago they weren't as uncommon as they are in today's standardized world. But they are out there, waiting patiently to be rescued..... Walter ....and for lots cheaper than Gnome Depot. ---- Start of Message 59032 (thread 25584) ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 1999-03-05 04:37:00 Subject: RE: availabillity of 12-24 screws In a message dated 3/4/99 6:40:11 PM, wdwrkr@i... writes: << ... on the unavailabillity of screws in the 12-24 size. They are available, but not commonly ... >> 12-24 is the size specified for attaching equipment to so-called RETMA (radio, TV, audio) equipment racks. The fasteners are quite common in that trade, and can be found at any dealer which caters to electronics professionals. Tens of thousands are consumed daily. Excellent "finish washers" are available through McFeelys, and some fasteners are available through McFeelys as well. The most common 12-24 fasteners are flat head machine screws of 1" long and longer. Round head machine screws and set screws are quite uncommon. Taps and dies are commonly available. ++++ End of thread 25584 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25585 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58963 (thread 25585) ---- From: Louis Michaud Date: 1999-03-04 15:58:00 Subject: Meat-saw blade for Bow-saw? GG, When looking at bansaw blades to be used in a bow-saw I asked the clerk if he had anything wider. Now this guy is getting used to me asking for uncommon stuff. His first reaction was to ask: What for? When I explained he said I would be better off getting meat-saw blade instead. They are sold by lenght off a roll, the end holes are punched at the same time the blade is cut, and they come in 9 or 10 tpi. I would use one at 10 tpi for fine work and it would be easy to skip a tooth and file one at 5 tpi. The only problem is that maybe they are stainless steel blades. The clerk wasn't sure and the only supplier in town is gone for the week. I'm not sure, but isn't stainless a pain to file? Anybody tried these blades? Any info would be appreciated. TIA Louis Michaud ---- Start of Message 59003 (thread 25585) ---- From: Howard Slack Date: 1999-03-04 22:04:00 Subject: Re: Meat-saw blade for Bow-saw? I have been wanting to get some meat-cutting bandsaw blade - where should I look? It is for a bread-slicing 'bow saw'. Howard Louis Michaud wrote: > When looking at bansaw blades to be used in a bow-saw > I asked the clerk if he had anything wider. Now this guy is > getting used to me asking for uncommon stuff. His first > reaction was to ask: What for? When I explained he said I > would be better off getting meat-saw blade instead. They are > sold by lenght off a roll, the end holes are punched at the > same time the blade is cut, and they come in 9 or 10 tpi. I > would use one at 10 tpi for fine work and it would be easy to > skip a tooth and file one at 5 tpi. ---- Start of Message 59021 (thread 25585) ---- From: "Rodney Myrvaagnes" Date: 1999-03-05 01:28:00 Subject: Re: Meat-saw blade for Bow-saw? IIRC, the Starrett catalog lists all sorts of bandsaw blades, which they will cut to length on order. Normally they weld them into loops, but I am sure they could skip that step. Butcher saw blades were listed along with all the others. I had a couple made up when I expected to saw bone for keyboards. If it is width you want, there are wood-cutting blades in many thicknesses and widths. On Thu, 04 Mar 1999 17:04:02 -0500, Howard Slack wrote: >I have been wanting to get some meat-cutting bandsaw blade - where >should I look? It is for a bread-slicing 'bow saw'. > >Howard > >Louis Michaud wrote: >> When looking at bansaw blades to be used in a bow-saw >> I asked the clerk if he had anything wider. Now this guy is >> getting used to me asking for uncommon stuff. His first >> reaction was to ask: What for? When I explained he said I >> would be better off getting meat-saw blade instead. They are >> sold by lenght off a roll, the end holes are punched at the >> same time the blade is cut, and they come in 9 or 10 tpi. I >> would use one at 10 tpi for fine work and it would be easy to >> skip a tooth and file one at 5 tpi. > >-- > > Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a 20+ years without a car, a TV, or a website ---- Start of Message 59036 (thread 25585) ---- From: "Tim Swihart" Date: 1999-03-05 05:39:00 Subject: Re: Meat-saw blade for Bow-saw? Louis Michaud asked: > > When looking at bansaw blades to be used in a bow-saw > I asked the clerk if he had anything wider. Now this guy is > getting used to me asking for uncommon stuff. His first > reaction was to ask: What for? When I explained he said I > would be better off getting meat-saw blade instead. They are > sold by lenght off a roll, the end holes are punched at the > same time the blade is cut, and they come in 9 or 10 tpi. I > would use one at 10 tpi for fine work and it would be easy to > skip a tooth and file one at 5 tpi. You can get woodworking blades in rolls, custom lengths, by the foot, etc...no need to use a blade designed for a different material. Mail order houses like Woodcraft sell custom lengths or you can go to a specialist like Suffolk Machinery where you can probably get much better service and far wider selection. Tim S. ---- Start of Message 59089 (thread 25585) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-03-06 07:09:00 Subject: RE: Meat-saw blade for Bow-saw? ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Louis ~ Michaud ~ Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 3:58 PM ~ To: oldtools@l... ~ Subject: Meat-saw blade for Bow-saw? ~ Louis Michaud wrote: ~ I'm not sure, but isn't stainless a pain to file? In my experience, yes. Jeff ++++ End of thread 25585 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25586 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58967 (thread 25586) ---- From: glturner@w... (Gayle Turner) Date: 1999-03-04 16:33:00 Subject: Attention:lList Moms Noticed John Odom's post and I have tried two or three times to request digest during the last 2-3 days without sucess.Suggestions? Thanks, Gayle Turner ++++ End of thread 25586 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25587 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58969 (thread 25587) ---- From: Walt Lane Date: 1999-03-04 16:46:00 Subject: WTB - Harnessmaker's tools GG's I have lately picked up several Harnessmaker's tools and other implements associated with that trade. I would now be interested in adding to my accumulation. I have a pic on my web page (Wanted To Buy) to give you some idea of what they look like (if you don't already know) in case you should stumble across some at the local garage sales or fleas. Thanks. Walt Lane *<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>* Buying and Selling Antique Carpenter Tools The Great Adirondack Tool Co. {gatc@k...} 3 Pewter Lane, Johnstown, NY 12095 http://www.oldtools.johnstown.com ++++ End of thread 25587 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25588 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58973 (thread 25588) ---- From: Tim Fuss Date: 1999-03-04 17:30:00 Subject: Re: Fruitwood woodies question Aaron asked: > who in Galootdom owns Fruitwood Planes? I'll add one data point, I have a tongue cutting plane (but not the matched set, hint, hint) by Z.J.M'Master (I think) that seems to be apple wood. Really nice looking plane, smooth and even grain with a hint of striped figuring. It's a keeper. ---- Start of Message 58988 (thread 25588) ---- From: NLutz10449@a... Date: 1999-03-04 19:21:00 Subject: Re: Fruitwood woodies question In a message dated 99-03-04 13:52:18 EST, tonyseo@m... writes: << At 11:14 AM 3/4/99 EST, RayTSmith@a... wrote: > > Fruitwood planes are pretty scarce. Other than the occasional applewood plow, >exotic woods like boxwood and lignum are more common. Some 18th century bench >planes used fruitwood totes, but I can't remember ever seeing a whole plane of >fruitwood. Most of the fruitwood ones I've heard of were craftsman made. > >> I would think that apple and other fruit trees produce wood stock that is too knotty and full of grain reversal to have been used for commercial planemaking. Small pieces of wood, as used in saw handles, would have been practical. How many pieces of applewood do you have in your stock pile that are suited to build a jointer plane? I may try to construct a smoother with some applewood drying in my shop. Erik von Sneidern who is looking out the window through a snowstorm at an aged apple tree and wondering how many planes it holds. In a forest outside Syracuse, NY ---- Start of Message 58990 (thread 25588) ---- From: georgew@m... Date: 1999-03-04 19:33:00 Subject: Re: Fruitwood woodies question Erik, Interesting point and certainly true of today's availble apple. However, this was not always the case. The Casino Museam in Saratoga Springs has a beautiful highboy style drop front desk of apple made in the 1840s. We are not talking little bent, twisted sticks here. George << At 11:14 AM 3/4/99 EST, RayTSmith@a... wrote: > > Fruitwood planes are pretty scarce. Other than the occasional applewood plow, >exotic woods like boxwood and lignum are more common. Some 18th century bench >planes used fruitwood totes, but I can't remember ever seeing a whole plane of >fruitwood. Most of the fruitwood ones I've heard of were craftsman made. > >> I would think that apple and other fruit trees produce wood stock that is too knotty and full of grain reversal to have been used for commercial planemaking. Small pieces of wood, as used in saw handles, would have been practical. How many pieces of applewood do you have in your stock pile that are suited to build a jointer plane? I may try to construct a smoother with some applewood drying in my shop. Erik von Sneidern who is looking out the window through a snowstorm at an aged apple tree and wondering how many planes it holds. In a forest outside Syracuse, NY ---- Start of Message 58997 (thread 25588) ---- From: NLutz10449@a... Date: 1999-03-04 20:20:00 Subject: Re: Fruitwood woodies question I'd be interested to see this piece in my travels someday. I like the look of applewood very much. Full-size apple trees, as opposed to today's dwarf varieties, produce a fair amount of wood, but I wonder if furniture-grade applewood was common in the 19th century, or exceptional. Erik von Sneidern Syracuse, NY Snippage follows: George wrote: << Interesting point and certainly true of today's availble apple. However, this was not always the case. The Casino Museam in Saratoga Springs has a beautiful highboy style drop front desk of apple made in the 1840s. We are not talking little bent, twisted sticks here. RayTSmith@a... wrote: > > Fruitwood planes are pretty scarce. I wrote: I would think that apple and other fruit trees produce wood stock that is too knotty and full of grain reversal to have been used for commercial planemaking. ++++ End of thread 25588 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25589 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58974 (thread 25589) ---- From: "Kelly Cox" Date: 1999-03-04 17:31:00 Subject: FYI: Good epoxy for totes GG's; I'll try to make up for my pushing the *bay issue by contributing something possibly of value to some Galoots... I had to re-glue a crack in the tote of a 608C I bought a while back, and I've found an epoxy that seems to work really well. The crack was completely through; the whole top of the tote broke off including a half-moon part of the hole for the screw. So a re-glue job has to hold well in this area. My first gluing attempt used yellow woodworker's glue, and the first time I tried to use the plane the tote broke off again. I cleaned up the joint again with some fine sandpaper, and used this epoxy Type A-12 epoxy Armstrong Epoxy Adhesives Resin Technology group, Onc. 28 Norfolk Ave. South Easton, MA 02375 (508) 230-8070 I don't know if this epoxy is available in retail stores--it is used where I work, and somebody had a mostly-used kit that they gave me. I'm sure that if you want to call the company, they'll give you the name of a distributor. It is a 2-part, 50/50 mix, and the best part is, it is dark brown! So once I glued the tote back together, I couldn't see any ugly epoxy at the joint line. One epoxy I've used for years, gluing optics to metal mounts, is incredibly strong and I would have used it but it is bright Smurf blue, not a good choice for a rosewood tote! The A-12 epoxy has a LONG cure time--after a day it is still somewhat soft, so I let it cure for most of a week. But I've used the plane since then, and the tote is holding quite well. I did clamp the tote during gluing, overnight at least. Hope this helps someone! Kelly Cox Madison, WI ---- Start of Message 58982 (thread 25589) ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 1999-03-04 18:20:00 Subject: Re: FYI: Good epoxy for totes In a message dated 3/4/99 9:45:17 AM, cox@n... writes: << [ snip ] The A-12 epoxy has a LONG cure time--after a day it is still somewhat soft, so I let it cure for most of a week. >> For repairing totes, you want a slow-cure, high-strength epoxy. The "12 hour" type is fine. I "load" the epoxy with cabocil to act as a "gap filler". Most tote repairs need a little gap filling as the failure mode is usually not an axial break, but a bending break, such that a little of of the area is permanently compressed. Cabocil is available in artist's supply stores. It's kind of like diatomaceous earth, but different. Also, the epoxy can be tinted, using high-quality artist's oil tints. I have yet to develop a "universal rosewood tint". ---- Start of Message 58983 (thread 25589) ---- From: Jimmy Reina Date: 1999-03-05 06:30:00 Subject: Re: FYI: Good epoxy for totes > The A-12 epoxy has a LONG cure time--after a day it is still somewhat soft, > so I let it > cure for most of a week. But I've used the plane since then, and the tote is > holding > quite well. I did clamp the tote during gluing, overnight at least. My epoxy supplier has indicated that his epoxy has a fairly long pot life and and fairly long cure time, and that it is also pretty flexible because of this. In other words five miute epoxies are great for instant gratification, but are more brittle. My guess is that flexibility would be desireable ao a plane handle. Jimmy Reina Tools Tools Tools 1511 San Pablo Avenue Berkeley, CA 94702 (510) 528-5516 (510) 528-2997 FAX E-Mail mailto:toolsx3@f... WEB Site http://www.toolsx3.com Mirror Site http://www.flash.net/~toolsx3/ ---- Start of Message 59000 (thread 25589) ---- From: "John McCoy" Date: 1999-03-04 21:52:00 Subject: Re: FYI: Good epoxy for totes On Mar 4, 11:31am, Kelly Cox wrote: > Subject: FYI: Good epoxy for totes = > Type A-12 epoxy > Armstrong Epoxy Adhesives > Resin Technology group, Onc. > 28 Norfolk Ave. > South Easton, MA 02375 > (508) 230-8070 > > I don't know if this epoxy is available in retail stores--it is used where I > work, > and somebody had a mostly-used kit that they gave me. I'm sure that if you > want to > call the company, they'll give you the name of a distributor. It is a > 2-part, 50/50 mix, > and the best part is, it is dark brown! So once I glued the tote back > together, I > couldn't see any ugly epoxy at the joint line. There was an interesting post by Kern Hendricks in rec.boats. building a while back, relevant to this subject. In essence, Kern said there are three manufactures of epoxy (Royal Dutch Shell, Dow Corning, and someone else). These guys sell in bulk (like railcar loads). At the retail level there are two groups, the formulators and the repackagers. The formulators take resin and catalyst products from the manufacturers, and blend them to produce specific characteristics in the final product. The repackagers take the raw material from the manufacturers, and put it in a smaller container. The upshot of all this being that the repackagers are making "generic" epoxy, and any one of them is going to be the same as the others. The formulators, on the other hand, are making unique products with specific purposes. Unfortunately, Kern didn't give any particular hints on how to tell if a given vendor was a formulator or a repackager. John (not implying that Armstrong isn't making a unique product here, just putting out some background info). ++++ End of thread 25589 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25590 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58975 (thread 25590) ---- From: Tim Rutherford Date: 1999-03-04 17:39:00 Subject: The therapuetic joiner Aah, spring in the South. Hauled out the bench onto my makeshift apartment porch shop and commenced to bring a quartet of legs for my new shaving horse into approximate dimensions of one another. Oh, have I missed this over the winter! That satisfying *s-s-s-h-h-h-h-ick* of this 24" woodie and it SS iron slicing through wood; curly shavings falling beneath my feet -- and onto the downstair's neighbors hot tub cover. Then, glass smooth surfaces all around.... A nick on my wrist where I slip into the bench dog, the first shop blood of a new season. Hooray, it's Spring -- and th old tools are in bloom again! Blissfully begging your indulgence, Tim Rutherford Savannah, GA _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 25590 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25591 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58976 (thread 25591) ---- From: "Brent D. Beach" Date: 1999-03-04 17:52:00 Subject: Overtight Wedges On Thu, 4 Mar, Jeff Gorman wrote: >My experience with my wooden jack plane is that overtightening >the wedge can make it concave from toe to heel. Does this mean that the wedge in your plane is tighter at the top of the plane than at the bottom? The only part of the planes that can stretch when the wedge is driven in are the sides between the front and back of the wedge. If your plane is flexing to produce a concave sole, it suggests more flex near the top of the plane than near the bottom. Perhaps if you relieved the wedge near the top just a little, you could reduce or eliminate this flexing? It is interesting that while the abutment (against which the front of the wedge presses) is wider at the top, it is actually stronger at the bottom. At the top, there is a long section of unsupported wood because the abutment width decreases toward the front of the plane. At the bottom, the abutment is supported by the wear (front of the mouth). The side to side width of the abutment does not affect its strength, only the amount of that width that is full length wood fibre. Not to harp on a theme, but easing the top of the wedge would result in most of the force being applied at the bottom of the blade where it is most usefull in reducing blade vibration. Too much force there could result in plane warp to produce a convex sole, or even cracks behing the mouth. Arranging for slightly more force near the bottom seems to make sense though. Brent Brent Beach, Victoria, BC, CA ---- Start of Message 59088 (thread 25591) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-03-06 07:09:00 Subject: RE: Overtight Wedges ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Brent D. ~ Beach ~ Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 5:52 PM ~ To: oldtools@l... ~ Subject: Overtight Wedges ~ ~ ~ On Thu, 4 Mar, Jeff Gorman wrote: ~ >My experience with my wooden jack plane is that overtightening ~ >the wedge can make it concave from toe to heel. ~ ~ Does this mean that the wedge in your plane is tighter at the ~ top of the plane than at the bottom? Thanks for the interesting question. Until now I haven't given the matter much thought. ~ Perhaps if you relieved the wedge near the top just a little, ~ you could reduce or eliminate this flexing? It is kept with a dead straight edge to the iron, with the right hand side skimmed to make it square to the sole soley (ouch!) for use on a shooting board. It was trued with normal tightening, so provided the wedge is not overtightened it should be true. Since it works OK I think I'll stick to the advice 'If it ain't bust .............'. This useful advice does draw welcome attention to the problems involved in trueing wooden planes. Jeff ++++ End of thread 25591 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25592 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58978 (thread 25592) ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 1999-03-04 18:01:00 Subject: Re: Tinning rivets. was: Re: How to Fix Sloppy Lateral Adj Lever In a message dated 3/4/99 5:04:58 AM, NLutz10449@a... writes: << This repair was mentioned recently and comes up again. My question is where does the everyman find these [ tinner's ] rivets in small quantity? >> My local ACE hardware store carries these rivets in the specialty hardware section ... the little bins that are stocked with all kinds of weird hardware. These are sold by the unit (each) and cost a couple of cents. Even the large chain hardware stores, like OSH (which is now owned by Sears), carry these items, although you usually have to buy them by the bag (of six or so) for 49 cents. ++++ End of thread 25592 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25593 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58985 (thread 25593) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-03-04 19:05:00 Subject: Re: Before OSHA About death on the job, Steve wrote: "The above story reminded me of a couple of legends I have heard. When they were pouring the massive amount of concrete while building the Delaware Memorial Twin Bridges a worker slipped and fell into the hole. Immediately they stopped pouring and tried in vain to rescue the poor soul. They never had a chance. He sank way too fast, it took time before they could shut off the pouring concrete, and there was no equipment to remove concrete only pour massive amounts of it. I understand when it happened a few times thereafter they didn't even bother to stop. Just kept pouring and said a silent prayer." There are memorial plaques on the Chesapeake Bay Bridge to 7 men who di ed in a similar manner. Being old enough to have observed the bridge being built and having mis-spent a part of my younger days as a professional diver working that area, I can relate that their was nothing they could do to save a worker who fell in to the pour. Concrete for bridge construction is frequently poured in high volume, under extreme pressure (the depth at the center piers is now over 225 feet). In the half-a-second it might take to shut down the pour, the worker is already under 4 to 6 feet or concrete. Steve was really wondering about how the workers were treated. I have read many accounts of pre-1900 worker life. I think it was much better before Henry Ford introduced the assembly line in the 20th century. But, in terms of how workers were treated if injured before the turn of the century, there is not one answer. Many companies were "families" and took care or their workers. Others were harsh. Still, the seminal image folks have of early life probably owes its origins to Sinclair Lewiss' "The Jungle" which described arms and legs in your baloney (my guess for Jimmy Hoffa - he wound up in "a High Authority" brand and now is a little bit of each of us.) Oh, and for those who don't know where the Chesapeake Bay is located, i t is below the mustard gas at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds where the Blue Craps will now have a mustard taste. Karl - who is hungry and leaving for lunch. ---- Start of Message 58991 (thread 25593) ---- From: Ed_Balko@E... Date: 1999-03-04 19:43:00 Subject: Re: Before OSHA Karl wrote: "Oh, and for those who don't know where the Chesapeake Bay is located, it is below the mustard gas at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds where the Blue Craps will now have a mustard taste." To put a fine point on it, the mustard would be off Edgewood Arsenal, 14 miles further down the bay from Aberdeen. Ed Balko Middletown, NJ An Aberdeen Proving Grounds alumunus. ---- Start of Message 58993 (thread 25593) ---- From: tkissam@c... (Todd Kissam) Date: 1999-03-04 19:47:00 Subject: Re: Before OSHA >Oh, and for those who don't know where the >Chesapeake Bay is located, it is below the mustard >gas at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds where the Blue >Craps will now have a mustard taste. > > Karl - who is hungry and leaving for lunch. > "Blue Craps" - jeez there Karl - you're giving bottom feeding a whole new definition. I'll pass Todd ;^) ---- Start of Message 59004 (thread 25593) ---- From: Elp222@a... Date: 1999-03-04 21:05:00 Subject: Re: Before OSHA In a message dated 3/4/99 12:16:02 PM US Mountain Standard Time, sangerkw@m... writes: > Steve was really wondering about how the workers were treated. I have > read many accounts of pre-1900 worker life. I think it was much better > before Henry Ford introduced the assembly line in the 20th century. But, > in terms of how workers were treated if injured before the turn of the > century, there is not one answer. Many companies were "families" and took > care or their workers. Others were harsh. The one story I remember reading; It seems that the owner of a woodworking shop had the idea that those workers who had glasses could not see to work accurately. The foreman set up a bird-dog to warn everybody when the owner was coming. One day the owner came in a different way and found the workers working some with their glasses on. He then fired those on the spot for wearing glasses, fired the foreman for hiring them and fired the rest of his employees for not telling him what was going on. I don't know if he stayed in business. ep ---- Start of Message 59095 (thread 25593) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-03-06 13:58:00 Subject: Re: Before OSHA Karl Sanger wrote: >> I have >> read many accounts of pre-1900 worker life. I think it was much better >> before Henry Ford introduced the assembly line in the 20th century. But, >> in terms of how workers were treated if injured before the turn of the >> century, there is not one answer. Many companies were "families" and took >> care or their workers. Others were harsh. And Ernie Fisch added: >People were used to the conditions of the time and although they >tried to improve them the conditions were generally accepted. Whether paternalistic or harsh, the hours were long and the work was hard, usually requiring physical exertion along with maintaining mental acuity to do the job to standards and avoid getting hurt. And a lot of our ancestors and predecessors risked a lot to change things. In the US, the first half of the 19th century saw sporadically successful campaigns focused on changing customary "dawn to dusk" or 12-hour work schedules to 10-hour days, 6 days a week. I quote from an Encyclopedia Britannica I always keep at my side (1954 edition, vol. 11, p. 804, article on "Hours of Labor" --very interesting reading ;-): "In 1822 journeyman millwrights and machine workers in Philadelphia demanded a ten-hour day: 6 AM to 6 PM with one hour for breakfast and one hour for dinner. Their effort was unsuccessful, as was a legislative attempt by Boston house carpenters in 1825. The Boston carpenters were again defeated on this issue in 1830....In 1827 the Philadelphia carpenters again struck unsuccessfully for a ten-hour day." To repeat for the whippersnappers who do 60-hour weeks at the computer screen, pizza and Pepsi by their side, the carpenters in question were fighting to reduce their standard workweek to no more than 60 hours. By sometime after the Civil War the 10-hour day was generally assured, and the campaign for the 8-hour day began soon after. The Haymarket strike and riot (which started on May 1, 1886, thus creating the "Labor Day" of the non-North American world) was part of a strike for the 8-hour day that involved maybe a third of a million workers in the U.S. In agriculture, until well into the 20th century sunup to sundown remained the work schedule for most of the year. OIdTools content: That's what they were using. Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 59098 (thread 25593) ---- From: TURFF49@a... Date: 1999-03-06 14:22:00 Subject: Re: Before OSHA Seems like we are going back in time or making a complete cycle. Instead of shorter work weeks Americans are putting in more and more hours every week. Over the past 2 years if my workweek isn't at least 55 hours then something is wrong. The "company" expects it. And I'm not in some pure labor type job. I'm in the environmental engineering field. I've also read in the USA TODAY that the work weeks are longer now than 15 -20 years ago. Seems momemtum is getting out of control. My .02 if it's even worth that today. Thanks, Brian ---- Start of Message 59159 (thread 25593) ---- From: "Michael" Date: 1999-03-08 15:07:00 Subject: Re: before OSHA Just a comment about the hours worked in the 'good old days'. Ernie Fisch said some nice sounding things about my writings and then commented on the hours worked. Having read all the items which followed it reads like a resume' of life in Charles Dickens days, what with having to take work home to finish, and being docked pay if one went to the doctor - close your eyes when listening to these details and you could be permitted to think that you were listening to a description of the old Victorian working conditions, and really todays way of working life is really no different from then except that today we are using modern technology, ie. computers instead of the quill pen, and doing several hundred times as much. And just to close, having put in my 1d. worth, I recall an interview I made some thirty years ago with a lady whose father was employed by the railway company before WW1, for 168 hours a week. She said that on one occasion there was a heavy fog and he sat for four days and nights beside the track putting warning detonators on the line to warn the trains. If though the weather was fine and the trains were few he was permitted to take the odd hour off. Mike. ---- Start of Message 59197 (thread 25593) ---- From: "Scott E. Post" Date: 1999-03-08 23:20:00 Subject: Re: before OSHA I'm amazed at the turn this thread has taken, with people actually comparing cushy office jobs to the workplace of 200 years ago based simply on the number of hours. Sure, we often work long hours, and may have to walk as far as 25 yards to the coffee machine . But not FOR A SECOND am I naive enough to think that my job equates to that of a guy who walked 5 miles to work in all weather (on lousy, muddy roads), spent 10 or 12 hours in a saw pit, then walked home. Sheesh. The very idea is ridiculous. I, for one, know a good thing when I've got it. ---- Start of Message 59206 (thread 25593) ---- From: TURFF49@a... Date: 1999-03-09 01:56:00 Subject: Re: before OSHA Not all of us have cushy office jobs. Some of us push shovels and do what we call "dressing out" (thats where you are wearing a mask on your face while you are totally encapsulated in a butyl rubber suit) in 100 degree weather. I CAN equate my type job to days of long ago. In case some of you are wondering, I'm an environmental worker, (taking care now of what we created back then).Remember some of us do still actually work. Brian ++++ End of thread 25593 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25594 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58986 (thread 25594) ---- From: Aaron R Ionta Date: 1999-03-04 19:08:00 Subject: Fruitwood planes I have a Fruitwood ( Other people on the list have told me it is fruitwood) Continental Style Screw Arm Plane ( the body at least( that SWMBO gave me for our anniversary I do not know the maker but the Iron says XXXX Von Berg - I tried to make Anton berg out of th eletters but it jsut does not fit. (Stop Drooling Bruce and Tom) I will get photos and put them on the web somewhere Thanks for all the input do far Aaron p.s. please exscuse my grumpy *b*y comments - I'll get the floor plane and plane the front porch and Varnish it , or should I use poly -*r*nat* ??? ++++ End of thread 25594 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25595 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58992 (thread 25595) ---- From: "Michael" Date: 1999-03-04 19:49:00 Subject: Re:SWMBO gloat + a question - belated answer. Danz.... On the 23rd Feb. you put out the following item:- 'This weekend my Bro In Law informed me clarinets were made of 'blackwood'. I always thought they used ebony, when they were made of wood, but apparently not. He said it was for the nice tone the wood imparted to the sound of the clarinet. When pressed for details he claimed ignorance, as do I' It has taken me some time to find out the 'exact' reasons but it was certainly NOT for the improvement of the tone. I finally tracked down my friend Dave Williams who is only one of a handful of people making Uilleann pipes and flutes in this country and showed him your original message, and having read it his reply was as follows. On the bench in front of us were parts for both flutes and pipes he was making and pointing to the blackwood he said "as you can see this blackwood is actually not as black as that ebony. The reason why flutes, clarinets and other wind instruments are made of blackwood is because the air being blown through the instrument is wet and blackwood withstands the moisture. Ebony, on the other hand, is used in the construction of various types of pipes because the air is dry {as it leaves the bag}." That information, straight from the professionals mouth, should, I hope, answer your enquiry. Yours, Mike. ++++ End of thread 25595 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25596 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58994 (thread 25596) ---- From: "Lee, Jonathan" Date: 1999-03-04 20:06:00 Subject: making your own scraper plane Lee Valley sells this jig (or is it a fixture) that converts a metal plane into a scraper plane. Has anyone tried this? Jonathan Lee ---- Start of Message 58998 (thread 25596) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 1999-03-04 19:41:00 Subject: Re: making your own scraper plane On 4 Mar 99 at 15:06, Lee, Jonathan wrote: > Lee Valley sells this jig (or is it a fixture) that converts a metal > plane into a scraper plane. Has anyone tried this? Yes, I will admit to owning one of these, mounted in an old estate-sale-special Craftsman smoother. I viewed this as a possible "poor man's 112" which might or might not be worth the money, but was interesting to investigate since it was relatively inexpensive, at least compared to a real #112. Now, to begin with, I might be inclined to say I never met a scraper I didn't like, but for a while I had a hard time liking this one. I have a bunch of hand scrapers that I have learned to turn a decent hook on and use properly (a skill every galoot should acquire, IMHO) including both straight and gooseneck types. I also own a nice Sweetheart-era #80 scraper, just cause it seemed like the first scraper plane a galoot ought to acquire. I use it quite a bit, and think everyone ought to have one of these, as well. But the veritas scraper plane - well, it's kind of iffy. My first reaction was that it was OK, but not really any better than a #80 or a hand scraper, which gives you all kinds of control and feedback.It seems a bit too flexible to me. Being in this large cast iron "holder", you get almost no tactile feedback from it. You have to watch it work to see what it's doing. So it mostly sat on the shelf, until my current project, which is a display cabinet made of soft curly maple. Even after surfacing with a decent smoother, this wood was still sort of "undulating" so I decided to put the heavy-duty blade in the scraper plane and give it a shot. In this case, it worked remarkably well, taking off really nice shavings, leaving a surface that was flatter but still had a lot of depth. So it is once again back in my good graces and I will pull it off the shelf once in a while when I think it might help. The standard blade that comes with it is pretty useless, as far as I'm concerned. If you decide to get one, go for the optional heavy-duty blade; it works much better. It's just another tool in the arsenal, not a cure-all for all scraping problems. Sometimes it works well, sometimes you are better off with a #80 or a hand scraper. If I could afford a #112, I would get rid of this one. I'm sure the #112 would do a much better job. Since I can't justify that expense, this one will do for now. How's that for damning with faint praise? -Ken Ken Greenberg IT #321; Blue Galoot #82 400 Los Gatos Blvd., Los Gatos, CA 95032 http://www.calast.com/ken/Personal/wood.htm ---- Start of Message 59038 (thread 25596) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-03-05 06:04:00 Subject: Re: making your own scraper plane Since scraper planes seem to have a special place in the heart of this list (despite the oft-quoted opinion than "true" planes are all that's needed) doesn any body have any opinion or experience of the things shown bottom right on this page? http://www.mtncom.com/artisans/toolmake.htm (or any of their other tools for that matter?) BugBear. ---- Start of Message 59213 (thread 25596) ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 1999-03-09 02:29:00 Subject: Re: making your own scraper plane On 5 Mar 99 at 9:24, Paul Womack wrote: > Since scraper planes seem to have a special place in the heart > of this list (despite the oft-quoted opinion than "true" > planes are all that's needed) doesn any body have > any opinion or experience of the things shown bottom > right on this page? > > http://www.mtncom.com/artisans/toolmake.htm I just returned from a weekend trip (no, I didn't get to check out any good old tools haunts, but I found out where some were...) and noticed this posting. Someone asks for an opinion on this list and doesn't get one? What is the world coming to? Sheesh. I've never seen one of these is real life and the photos are too small to see any details, but they sure look nice. They have good, thick irons, and browsing around the web site I get the idea that Ron Hock is a major supplier of irons to these guys. Ron, is that one of your products in the scraper planes (assuming you can tell)? If I had the time, I would definitely like to take some of their courses. SWMBO could really use a new bow for her viola, and with two weeks and $1500 I could supply her with one. Of course I would have to get a few new old tools out of this deal, but I would get to make them - another benefit there. -Ken, wondering if anyone on this list has attended the school. Ken Greenberg IT #321; Blue Galoot #82 400 Los Gatos Blvd., Los Gatos, CA 95032 http://www.calast.com/ken/Personal/wood.htm ---- Start of Message 59218 (thread 25596) ---- From: bugbear@c... (Paul Womack) Date: 1999-03-09 05:12:00 Subject: Re: making your own scraper plane > On 5 Mar 99 at 9:24, Paul Womack wrote: > > > Since scraper planes seem to have a special place in the heart > > of this list (despite the oft-quoted opinion than "true" > > planes are all that's needed) doesn any body have > > any opinion or experience of the things shown bottom > > right on this page? > > > > http://www.mtncom.com/artisans/toolmake.htm > > I just returned from a weekend trip (no, I didn't get to check out > any good old tools haunts, but I found out where some were...) and > noticed this posting. Someone asks for an opinion on this list and > doesn't get one? What is the world coming to? Sheesh. If anyone's interested I have 2 designs for scraper planes from books here in the UK. One is from the "making woodworking aids and devices" by Robert Wearing (who is far too clever...), the other by Zach Taylor, who is a luthier, and ex-editor of one of the UK WW magazines. I would have to get tham scanned, typed up etc. BugBear. ---- Start of Message 59229 (thread 25596) ---- From: "Frank Filippone" Date: 1999-03-09 14:02:00 Subject: RE: making your own scraper plane Snip If anyone's interested I have 2 designs for scraper planes from books here in the UK. I would be very interested in this design.... they are wooden I imagine? Please forward to me or give me the address when you get it scanned Frank ---- Start of Message 59258 (thread 25596) ---- From: Louis Michaud Date: 1999-03-10 13:46:00 Subject: RE: making your own scraper plane >If anyone's interested I have 2 designs for scraper planes from >books here in the UK. You may want to check out a very good article in: Woodwork, #33, June 1995, Making a scraper plane by Hjorth-Westh. Back issues are available for $5.00 from Woodwork Magazine P.O. Box 1529 Ross, CA, 94957 phone(415)382-0580 fax (415)382-0587 No relations...etc,etc. Louis Michaud ++++ End of thread 25596 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25597 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58995 (thread 25597) ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 1999-03-04 20:11:00 Subject: Jointer gauge questions Galoots, I have discovered that I have an assortment of jointer gauges, the tool that fastens to the side of a plane for guidance in planing a bevel on the edge of a board, etc. My questions have to do with the company whose name is on the last one that I got in a box of stuff at an auction last fall. It is marked "Langdon Mitre Box, Millers Falls, Mass." on the adjusting knob, and looks a lot like, but different in some details from, the "Millers Falls" jointer gauge that I also have. Can anyone tell me what the years of operation of the "Langdon Mitre Box" company were and anything that I whould look for on either the Langdon or Millers Falls jointer gauges to determine when they were made? And another question about a similar tool- is someone making replacement or replica thumbscrews for the Stanley 368 jointer gauge? Seems like I posted a WTB for some a few months ago and someone out there was thinking of making new ones. If so, I'd like to know more. Thanks. == Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 25597 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25598 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58996 (thread 25598) ---- From: "Lee, Jonathan" Date: 1999-03-04 20:10:00 Subject: stopped dado How do I cut a stopped dado with hand planes, or do I have to chisel it out? Perhaps I should rephrase the question to read: what plane do I need to buy to cut a stopped dado (3/4in) Jonathan Lee ---- Start of Message 59017 (thread 25598) ---- From: "Thomas R. Bruce" Date: 1999-03-05 00:57:00 Subject: Re: stopped dado Jonathan Lee inquires: >How do I cut a stopped dado with hand planes, or do I have to chisel it out? > >Perhaps I should rephrase the question to read: what plane do I need to >buy to cut a stopped dado (3/4in) Theoretically, none; it can be done with saw and chisel alone. In actual practice a router plane and a side rabbet are helpful, with the side rabbet probably the *most* helpful. A brace and bit are useful too. Basic procedure: Make the stopped end either by chopping out an inch or so as you would for a mortise, or use brace and bit to do the hogging and trim square with a chisel. Now that you've got some running room, cut the sides of the dado with a saw, sawing a little inside the lines. Using a chisel, clean out the waste between saw cuts. Clean up the bottom of the groove with a router plane. The spear point cutter works best and it's *always* the one that's missing (but you can get them still from Stanley). I find that with a long paring chisel and a guide block I can get the bottoms as clean as with a router plane. Trim the sides out to the lines with the side rabbet(s). Hey, presto! (Actually, you might want to wait to trim the sides all the way out until you check the fit with the mating piece....) Best, Tb. ++++ End of thread 25598 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25599 ++++ ---- Start of Message 58999 (thread 25599) ---- From: Carl W Muhlhausen Date: 1999-03-04 20:22:00 Subject: Central Jersey Woodworkers Meetings Upcoming Meetings of the CJWA: March Meeting: The March meeting will be held on Wednesday, March 10th from 7-10 PM. Please note that it will not be at the usual location. Please see the directions below. The speaker will be club member, Matt Greco. Over the years, Matt has built an impressive collection of furniture for his house. The focus of the talk will be a six drawer chest, made from tiger maple. Other pieces that will be here for the members to see and ask questions about are: 5 piece entertainment unit made from cherry cherry side board cherry end table mahogany linen press crotch mahogany veneer chest of drawers cherry and walnut wood box to hold firewood Matt will talk about the tools and techniques he used to make these pieces. I've seen photographs of his work and it's really first rate. I'm looking forward to seeing it "up close and personal". Please bring a small chair to sit on as Matt can't supply seating for us all. Directions to Matt's house (this meeting only!): 2 Erte Place, Marlboro, NJ Using the intersection of Rt. 79 and Rt. 520 (near the Old Brick Reformed Church) as a starting point. Take 79 south, past Rt. 18, to the first light [ Ryan Road ]. Make a right turn on Ryan and go to the third left [Chagall Road ]. Make a left on Chagall. Erte is the first right. # 2 is the first house on the left corner. If you have any questions with the directions call Matt during the day at 732/238-2272. April Meeting Our April meeting will be on Wednesday, April 14th from 7-10:PM at our usual location. Directions below. The speaker will be Graham Blackburn, the noted author of numerous woodworking and how-to books. Graham's talk will be on "Traditional Handtools in the Contemporary Shop: Not Just for Collectors" and he'll use the opportunity to describe common instances where hand tools are the appropriate choice for ease of use and efficiency. Graham has been making furniture, collecting tools, and writing and illustrating books and articles about woodworking for almost forty years. He recently formed his own publishing company and has a new book out "Traditional Woodworking Handtools". He should have copies available for perusal and sale at the meeting. He also has a new article on linenfold paneling coming out in the April issue of Fine Woodworking. He has his own Web site at http://www.blackburnbooks.com/ with some good stuff there. Club members are also invited to attend Graham's talk at CRAFTS of NJ on Sunday April 11th on making a linenfold panel. See the information on CRAFTS on NJ below for more details. Directions for the April meeting: The Old Brick Reformed Church is located on Route 520 (Newman Springs Road) in Marlboro, NJ Directions: We will be meeting in separate building that is located a short distance behind the church itself. The church is located on Route 520 approx. one-quarter of a mile from the Route 520 & Route 79 intersection. Members coming from the GSP can exit at #109 and proceed west on Route 520/Newman Springs Road into Marlboro (approx. 6 miles), the large Brick church is on your right side, just past Marlboro Psychiatric Hospital. Members coming in from Route 18 should find the Route 79 North exit most convenient. Proceed North on Route 79 for approx. 2 miles to the Route 520/Newman Springs Road intersection (WaWa and Amoco gas station on corner). Make a right hand turn at light...go 1/4 mile, the church is on the left. That's all for now. Just remember that every legend has a beginning Darth Muhl Dark Lord of the CJWA ++++ End of thread 25599 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25600 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59001 (thread 25600) ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 1999-03-04 22:02:00 Subject: Galootin' In PA March 99 Well time for another Barry Hurchalla auction. Sat March 6. Barry's regular auctions are held at the Gabelsville Athletic Club, just west of Boyertown PA. Find Route 100 (west of Phila). Boyertown is m/l halfway between Allentown and Phila. You get off at the Boyertown exit. If you are heading 100N turn left off the ramp, 100S, turn right. (Note if coming 100S, 100 widens to 4 lanes, there is a stop light and the exit is real quick after the stoplight and poorly (like right on top of it) signed. Stay on this road through Boyertown and the Athletic Club is on the right just outside of town. Maybe 3 miles from 100. Auction starts at 9:30, inspection at 8:00, and tailgating starts as soon as the second guy get's there..usually around 6:00. _______________________________________________ User/Collector of Old Woodworking Tools http://www.geocities.com/PicketFence/1395 ______________________________________________ ++++ End of thread 25600 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25601 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59002 (thread 25601) ---- From: Eddie Sirotich Date: 1999-03-04 22:09:00 Subject: Schniztelbank GGs, I received this question today and I have to admit that I never heard before of a schniztelbank. I wouldn't mind to see one as well. Here is the original message, please respond to the original sender directly: >Help I am trying to find plans and or picture of a schniztelbank a german >wood workers vice. Foot operated, about 4 feet long, and one would stradle it >Michael~ >liverzoo@s... Eddie Whose always thought of schnitzels as of steaks. ---------------------------------------- Adria Tools - High Quality Dovetail Saws http://www.woodworking.com/adria/ ---- Start of Message 59008 (thread 25601) ---- From: "Joe Duclos" Date: 1999-03-04 22:47:00 Subject: Re: Schniztelbank Schniztelbank = shave horse. I was taught this by a visitor to Hancock Shaker Village who wanted to play "Let's stump the cabinetmaker". Joe Duclos Resident Cabinetmaker My House ---- Start of Message 59011 (thread 25601) ---- From: "Kelly Cox" Date: 1999-03-04 22:59:00 Subject: RE: Schniztelbank > > Schniztelbank = shave horse. Hoo, boy! I'm wondering....which part means horse--"schnitzel" or "bank"? If it is the first part, well, sorry Mr. Ed. OT content: I'm finally about to start on the horse tack trunk for my wife... stretching the connection, I know! Kelly Cox Madison, WI Who's going to feed his horse a few more treats tonight to atone for the great schnitzel I had somewhere near Kiel in '95. ---- Start of Message 59012 (thread 25601) ---- From: ralph.brendler@a... (Ralph Brendler) Date: 1999-03-04 23:18:00 Subject: Re: Schniztelbank >> Schniztelbank = shave horse. > >Hoo, boy! I'm wondering....which part means horse--"schnitzel" or "bank"? >From the German: "Schnitzen" - to carve "Bank" - bench so, Schnitzelbank is "Carving Bench". So, am I the only one singing "Ist das nicht ein Schnitzelbank..." right now? ;-) ralph ---- Start of Message 59015 (thread 25601) ---- From: NLutz10449@a... Date: 1999-03-05 00:05:00 Subject: Re: Schniztelbank << >From the German: "Schnitzen" - to carve "Bank" - bench so, Schnitzelbank is "Carving Bench". >> I had to run this by my Deutsche Frau, Nina. She laughed because the word is Schnitzbank without the extra syllable in the middle. Schitzel of course is a breaded and pan-fried loin of pork. Oldtool content: The schnitzbank was used by German coopers and wheelwrights. Erik von Sneidern ---- Start of Message 59022 (thread 25601) ---- From: "Rodney Myrvaagnes" Date: 1999-03-05 01:23:00 Subject: Re: Schniztelbank Might this be a shaving horse, in English. A bench with a foot-operated hold-fast for a (barrel stave, etc) to be gripped while working on it with a draw knife.?? On Thu, 04 Mar 1999 14:09:04 -0800, Eddie Sirotich wrote: >GGs, > >I received this question today and I have to admit that I never heard >before of a schniztelbank. I wouldn't mind to see one as well. Here is >the original message, please respond to the original sender directly: > >>Help I am trying to find plans and or picture of a schniztelbank a german >>wood workers vice. Foot operated, about 4 feet long, and one would stradle it >>Michael~ >>liverzoo@s... > > >Eddie >Whose always thought of schnitzels as of steaks. > >---------------------------------------- >Adria Tools - High Quality Dovetail Saws >http://www.woodworking.com/adria/ > >-- > > Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a 20+ years without a car, a TV, or a website ---- Start of Message 59029 (thread 25601) ---- From: Denis Hancock Date: 1999-03-05 03:26:00 Subject: Re: Schniztelbank > >From the German: > > "Schnitzen" - to carve > "Bank" - bench > > so, Schnitzelbank is "Carving Bench". > > So, am I the only one singing "Ist das nicht ein Schnitzelbank..." right > now? ;-) Ja, das is ein Schnitzelbank. Is das nicht ein Kurz und Lang? There were a couple schnitzelbanks shown in the Movie "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang". If I recall, Benny Hill was the toymaker. ---- Start of Message 59037 (thread 25601) ---- From: "Tim Swihart" Date: 1999-03-05 06:04:00 Subject: Re: Schniztelbank Eddie Sirotich wrote: > > I received this question today and I have to admit that I never heard > before of a schniztelbank. I wouldn't mind to see one as well. Here is > the original message, please respond to the original sender directly: > >>Help I am trying to find plans and or picture of a schniztelbank a german >>wood workers vice. Foot operated, about 4 feet long, and one would stradle it >>Michael~ >>liverzoo@s... That's German for "shaving horse". "Bank" is roughly "bench" so I suppose a truer translation would be something like "shaving bench", but us crazy 'Muricans tend to call this contraption a "shaving horse". Plans for making them are available in a variety of places: one of Roy Underhill's books, somewhere on the web (sorry, I don't have that URL handy at home...), The Workbench Book, and many other places. Hope that helps, Tim S. ---- Start of Message 59043 (thread 25601) ---- From: Sutton Date: 1999-03-05 12:26:00 Subject: Re: Schniztelbank Achtung Galooten-- Schnitzel refers to CARVING, derives from schneiden, to cut. Bank means bench. Yes, it's a shave horse, but literally translated it's a carving bench. gern geschehen. Wenn sie noch andere Fragen ueber die deutsche Sprache haben, schreib' doch mal. der David *********** David Sutton Sutton Studios 1532 Crain St. Evanston, IL 60202 suttons@e... http://www.suttonstudios.com ---------- > From: "Kelly Cox" > To: "OLDTOOLS" , > Subject: RE: Schniztelbank > Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:59:32 -0600 > > >> >> Schniztelbank = shave horse. > >Hoo, boy! I'm wondering....which part means horse--"schnitzel" or "bank"? > >If it is the first part, well, sorry Mr. Ed. > >OT content: I'm finally about to start on the horse tack trunk for my >wife... >stretching the connection, I know! > >Kelly Cox >Madison, WI >Who's going to feed his horse a few more treats tonight to atone for the >great schnitzel I had somewhere near Kiel in '95. > >-- >+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ =+=+=+=+=+=+=+ OLDTOOLS@l... listserv@l... >Archive: http://mailmunch.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/archives/ OLDTOOLS >+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ =+=+=+=+=+=+=+ > > ---- Start of Message 59052 (thread 25601) ---- From: Carl W Muhlhausen Date: 1999-03-05 14:51:00 Subject: Re: Schniztelbank Ralph Brendler wrote: > > >> Schniztelbank = shave horse. > > > >Hoo, boy! I'm wondering....which part means horse--"schnitzel" or "bank"? > > >From the German: > > "Schnitzen" - to carve > "Bank" - bench > > so, Schnitzelbank is "Carving Bench". > > So, am I the only one singing "Ist das nicht ein Schnitzelbank..." right > now? ;-) > > ralph > I'm singing it, too, but desperately trying to remember where it comes from and the rest of the words. OT content: Use your meat cutting blades in your bowsaw to carve out a Wiener Schnitzel from a chunk of meat held in your Schnitzelbank. Aye du schoene, Aye du schoene Schnitzelbank Carl ++++ End of thread 25601 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25602 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59006 (thread 25602) ---- From: Patrick Leach Date: 1999-03-04 22:46:00 Subject: More Off-topic Babble To Oldfools... Anyone from NC, specifically Raleigh-Durham area, going to PATINA? If so, please contact me directly. Thanks........... Patrick ++++ End of thread 25602 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25603 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59007 (thread 25603) ---- From: Andy Cooper Date: 1999-03-04 22:38:00 Subject: Wood, oil and water I found an informative article on the effect of different types of oil on woodwind instruments. There is a nice set of references at the end about the types of wood that these instruments are made from (unfortunately not on the web tho). http://www.iinet.net.au/~nickl/wood.html Andy ++++ End of thread 25603 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25604 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59009 (thread 25604) ---- From: "Kelly Cox" Date: 1999-03-04 22:44:00 Subject: FS: Epoxy (was: RE: FYI: Good epoxy for totes) > > >Type A-12 epoxy > >Armstrong Epoxy Adhesives > > Oh yeah. I dread to think what it costs, (dunno, but I bet it > ain't cheap). > But it is some of the strongest stuff I've ever used. Still trying to do good after the *bay fiasco, I called the local distributor in Milwaukee where my company buys the stuff. A 2-part kit sells for 11.65 each, and they have a $75 minimum. So here's the deal: Contact me at cox@n... or kellycox@g... and let me know if you want to buy a kit of this epoxy. I'll pass it along for cost plus shipping, IF I get at least seven Galoots interested in buying some. I figure there are a lot of Galoots with planes that need the tote re-glued, but maybe not. Unless I get dozens of requests, I'll do it on OldTools terms (for those who have bio's on file). If I get swamped, I'll still probably do OT terms, but maybe in a couple of batches of shipments. Let the Epoxy-o-Rama begin! Kelly Cox Madison, WI ++++ End of thread 25604 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25605 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59010 (thread 25605) ---- From: "HALL, HAYWARD" Date: 1999-03-04 22:56:00 Subject: Hoover Dam Death Urban Ledgend( was Before OSHA) I didnt know this till I looked it up. Kindof interesting site. http://www.urbanlegends.com/death/hoover_dam_reference.html I love discussions of turn-of-the-century work working conditions, too, if any body has any more to share, and the essay on shipwrights was incredible. If anyone things this is way to off list-topic let me know, but it is in line with the thread. Hayward Hall Springfield MO > -----Original Message----- > From: MisterMatt@a... [SMTP:MisterMatt@a...] > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 11:49 AM > To: stevereynolds@j...; oldtools@l... > Subject: Re: Before OSHA was:Re: Lesson - Search Deep! > > stevereynolds@j... writes: > > > When they were pouring the massive amount of concrete while building > > the Delaware Memorial Twin Bridges a worker slipped and fell into the > > hole. > > Assembled Galoots & Steve, > > This story exists for every major concrete pouring job in the land, > especially > Hoover Dam. It even got a notable mention in Saturday Night Fever, when > Tony > (the John Travolta character) is waxing poetic about the statistics of the > Verrazano Bridge. So I don't buy it, that anyone ever fell into a pouring > project. Just my 2 cents. And I'm glad I never had to watch anyone get > held > under in a vat of hot caustic for mercy. > > ++++ End of thread 25605 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25606 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59013 (thread 25606) ---- From: carlwshp Date: 1999-03-04 23:24:00 Subject: FS & WTB March. Hello Everyone, Here's a small list for this month, e-mail me with any more questions about tools. Money is tight this month, so will need money up front. Sorry. Carl Murphy Eastport, Maine Planes or plane related tools. 1. Stanley #101 Block plane, 3 1/2" long, 1" blade, Type 5 trademark on blade, 80% finish, needs cleaning, Good. $30.00 2. Stanley #51 spoke shave, BB logo, 85-90% finish, needs lite cleaning, blade is long. this not a new tool. Good. $20.00 3. Stanley #151 Round bottom spoke shave, BB logo, this is a new tool, got it a couple of years ago, now have a miller fall #1 to replace it. these cost around $30 new. Fine. $20.00 4. Stanley 2 5/8" sweetheart blade, long and shiney, might have been used once or twice, a few spots of surface rust, looks like it's from finger prints, will clean right off. Good+. $25.00 5. Consolidated Tool Works block plane(it's a sargent #208) 70% finish, a couple spots of paint, blade long, will make a good user. Good. $15.00 6. Dunlap smooth plane, 9 3/4" long, 1 3/4" wide blade, this is like a #3 1/2. the hole thing needs major cleaning, handle and knob there but need refinishing. could be workable. $10.00 7. E.C.Stearns & Co. Jointer fence, 90% finish, needs a lite cleaning, missing one of the lock down cams. these sell for $70 or more, but because of the missing cam, it's yours for. $35.00 8. Greenfield Tool Co. #156, 1" bead plane, single boxed, wood is great, and blade is great. hard to find bead planes of this size in this shape. Fine. $30.00 Miscellaneous Tool 1. #65 Stanley New Britain, Conn. U.S.A. marking gauge. only used a few times by the looks of it, there is repaired check in the head, doesn't go all the way through. Good +. $20.00 2. Witherby 12" drawknife, lite rust, should clean up good, needs sharping. Good. $25.00 3. Two old sodering Irons. e-mail for more onthem. Good. $5.00ea. 4. W.L.Cooper Star two sided file, 1 1/2 wide x 13 to tang, good user. $5.00 5. #22 Greenlee bit brace drill, # 6. Good. $2.00 6. Norton combination india stone in it's paper box, Box is in ruff shape, stone 6"x2"x1", used but Good. $10.00 7. Slate shingle remover, I guess that's what it is called, Great shape, 70% finish. Good. $15.00 Woodworking Books and Magazines 1. Wood Furniture, finishing,refinishing & repairing by James E.Brumbaugh. Hardcover, writen in 1974, 1986 edition. Good shape. $10.00 2. A Museum of Early American Tools, by Eric Sloane, softcover, writen in 1964, 1974 edition. Good, but a few lose pages. $10.00 3. Woodworking for Everyone, by Shea and Wenger, frist edition second printing 1945, hardcover. Good shape. $20.00 4. Wood Handbook (united states dept. of agriculture) 1940 edition, softcover. Good shape. $10.00 5. Care & Repair of Furniture, by Albert Jackson & David Day, writen in 1943, 1994 edition, hardcover. Good shape. $10.00 6. Furniture Repair and Restoration, by Len & Kay Hilts, 1981 edition, softcover. Good shape. $7.00 7. Jigs & Woodshop Furniture, by Jeff Greef, 1994 edition, hardcover. Good shape. $10.00 8. Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets, by Jim Tolpin, 1995 edition, softcover. Good shape. $12.00 9.FWW magazines#79,80,82,83,85,87,109,109,114,115,117, 118,119,120,121,122,124,125,126,127,128,129,130,&131. Good & better. $4.00 each 10. AWW magazines #44,45,47,50,51,51,52,52,53,54,56,59, 61,64,&(2) Best of AWW1995. Good. $2.00 each 11. WoodSmith (2)Vol.17/#101, Vol.17/#102, Vol.18/#104, (2)Vol.18/#105. Good. $1.00 each Wanted 1. Auburn Tool #180 H&R, #2 H&R, #10 H, # 18 R, #20 H&R, #22 H&R,& #24 R, but will consiter any you have, may want to up grade. 2. Marten Doscher New York, side bead planes, 1",7/8", 5/8", 1/2",1/8", & any in 16th sizes but 3/16", but will consiter any you have, may want to up grade. 3. T.H. Withbery Chisels bevel sided, 3/4",1 3/4", 2", They don't need to have handles, But 8" or longer, socket to bevel. 4. Auburn Tool Co. Tool Catalogs. Thanks for looking. Carl Murphy Eastport, Maine http://www.nemaine.com/carlwshp ++++ End of thread 25606 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25607 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59014 (thread 25607) ---- From: Gary Paine Date: 1999-03-04 23:36:00 Subject: Meat saw blades Most of the meat saws I've seen have no set. A modern blade may or not be able to take a set without cracking, but you will likely have to spend the time to set all those teeth. Gary ++++ End of thread 25607 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25608 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59016 (thread 25608) ---- From: estuary@w... (Larry Holland) Date: 1999-03-05 00:51:00 Subject: Claw Hammers G'loots, This is in response to a query put forth several days ago, by one of our esteemed. Last night, I was looking through a couple sections of Eric Sloane's "Sketches of America Past", and stumbled onto the chapter on Hammers. It starts off with... "The claw hammer hasn't changed much since about 75 A.D. Aside from it's aesthetic qualities, the Roman example shown below has a most efficient design." His excellent drawing resembles closely the construction hammer mentioned in earlier posts. He then goes on to sketch hammers common to America in the 1780's and it's not until the early 1800's that the tightly curved claw shows up. Apologies is someone already mentioned this. Larry.....where it's rain till August, then showers, in SW Washington State. - Larry Holland estuary@w... ++++ End of thread 25608 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25609 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59018 (thread 25609) ---- From: FrankSronce Date: 1999-03-05 01:16:00 Subject: Telling It Like It Is Did anyone happen to notice that yesterday's New York Times crossword puzzle (at least the one in yesterday's Fort Worth paper), required a 3-letter word meaning Galoot? Solution: APE Surely they weren't referring to any of us!! Frank (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ---- Start of Message 59020 (thread 25609) ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 1999-03-05 01:39:00 Subject: Re: Telling It Like It Is At 07:16 PM 3/4/99 -0600, FrankSronce wrote: >Did anyone happen to notice that yesterday's New York Times crossword >puzzle (at least the one in yesterday's Fort Worth paper), required >a 3-letter word meaning Galoot? > >Solution: APE > >Surely they weren't referring to any of us!! > Well as a charter member of the neanderthal class of 1993-4 when this all boiled to a head on rec.woodwrecking, all's I can say.. Hey..I resemble that remark! Tony ________________________________________________________ Old tools..don't leave home without them ________________________________________________________ ++++ End of thread 25609 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25610 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59023 (thread 25610) ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1999-03-05 02:09:00 Subject: WTB: Old English Warrington or Exeter hammer After several years of searching I have yet to find either a Warrington or an Exeter hammer to fill out my toolkit. I'm interested in an English one, about 8oz, with a clear maker's mark. A head by itself would be great. I understand that the old Warringtons were solid cast steel and the Exeters were mild cast steel with a tempered steel face. One of each would be even better. Thanks ! Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ++++ End of thread 25610 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25611 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59024 (thread 25611) ---- From: Roeder/Kraft Date: 1999-03-05 02:12:00 Subject: Regional planemaking styles Hi all, I recently came across a statement in a tool sale list that mentioned that a profile molding plane was 'flat-bottomed in the Pennsylvania style.' I hear and see such references from time to time. Most of the molding planes in my collection are post-1840 and so are fairly uniform, so regional variations are pretty much a mystery to me. Other than having the vague impression that yellow birch was favored in early New England, I know little about this topic. I'd be delighted if some of the wooden plane buffs would want to post every single scrap of what they know about regional styles. My tool reference collection just doesn't have anything on this topic. Randy Roeder -- perhaps there's really not much to say about this and regional differences are over rated? ++++ End of thread 25611 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25612 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59026 (thread 25612) ---- From: Jimmy Reina Date: 1999-03-05 14:49:00 Subject: VINTAGE BANDSAW ---- Start of Message 59122 (thread 25612) ---- From: DaveWolv@a... Date: 1999-03-07 02:31:00 Subject: re: VINTAGE BANDSAW Jimmy, There's a whole bunch of wacky, tool-oriented folk in New Jersey. They're called CRAFTS, and they even gots their own web site (http://members.aol.com/craftsofnj/ ). It includes a bunch of big names including Jack Whelan, Emil Pollak (deceased), Herb Kean, Bill Gustafson, etc. Now that I've shilled, let me get down to bidness... I checked Alexander Farnham's two books on NJ toolmakers. The closest I got was a Lysander Wright who made various types of powered saws in Newark starting in 1855 and variously also operating as Wright & Huntington and Wright & Smith (1862) and L. Wright's Machine Depot. No end date is given. He did not list anything for C. E. Wright. You could try contacting Mr. Farnham at 78 Tumble Falls Rd., Stockton, NJ 08559. He may have some research on C. E. Wright that has not yet made it into print. dave @ dave's home for wayward benches ++++ End of thread 25612 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25613 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59027 (thread 25613) ---- From: Dan Notti Date: 1999-03-05 03:16:00 Subject: Working Purpleheart It's time for a little father/daugter project and the project of choice is a desk modeled after the Hall Table in the latest FWW. In our wanderings around the local hardwood store, the daughter part of the project fell in love with Purpleheart for the top (maple for the rest of the desk.) So I purchased a small piece to play around with. Herein lies the rub -- Upon getting it home I thought I would smooth it on up and test some finishes. I had a terrible time trying to use my complement of smoothing planes. I used the #4, the #604 and the #41/2 (all with SSed Hock irons) to little avail. The skimmed over the surface with the greatest of ease, only occationally creating itsy-bitsy curlies. (Use against the grain resulting in immediate and massive tearout.) Being stumped I turned to hand scrapers and did worlds better. They seem to work just fine. I just can't imagine doing the whole desktop this way. Questions: Is it my technique or is it the wood? Should I prepare myself for a marathon scrapering session? Or should I sell my beloved little partner on the merits of another species? If I do correct the smoothing problem, can I use some of the promised Paddy-shellac (Super Blonde) for the finish? Dan Purpled with perplexity in So Cal. ---- Start of Message 59031 (thread 25613) ---- From: "Clarke Green" Date: 1999-03-06 06:35:00 Subject: Re: Working Purpleheart It is the wood. Purpleheart is oily and dense and has some interlocking grain that would make you smack your daddy off a creek bank. I worked with it in building a replica (full sized) of a 17th century ship, the Kalmar Nykle. We found that the purpleheart machined fairly well and loved the scraps. If you must do it by hand (and of course you must) I would suggest that you take a #4 or #5 and grind the blade pretty convex. This will waste the whole thing down to the point where smoothing planes will work better, but you will probably finish with a block plane and scrapers. It is lovely wood and worth the effort. Clarke Green -----Original Message----- From: Dan Notti To: List for users and collectors of antique tools Date: Thursday, March 04, 1999 7:17 PM Subject: Working Purpleheart >It's time for a little father/daugter project and the project of choice >is a desk modeled after the Hall Table in the latest FWW. In our >wanderings around the local hardwood store, the daughter part of the >project fell in love with Purpleheart for the top (maple for the rest of >the desk.) So I purchased a small piece to play around with. Herein lies >the rub -- > >Upon getting it home I thought I would smooth it on up and test some >finishes. I had a terrible time trying to use my complement of smoothing >planes. I used the #4, the #604 and the #41/2 (all with SSed Hock irons) >to little avail. The skimmed over the surface with the greatest of ease, >only occationally creating itsy-bitsy curlies. (Use against the grain >resulting in immediate and massive tearout.) Being stumped I turned to >hand scrapers and did worlds better. They seem to work just fine. I just >can't imagine doing the whole desktop this way. > >Questions: Is it my technique or is it the wood? Should I prepare myself >for a marathon scrapering session? Or should I sell my beloved little >partner on the merits of another species? If I do correct the smoothing >problem, can I use some of the promised Paddy-shellac (Super Blonde) for >the finish? > > >Dan >Purpled with perplexity in So Cal. > >-- > ---- Start of Message 59034 (thread 25613) ---- From: FrankSronce Date: 1999-03-05 05:07:00 Subject: Re: Working Purpleheart Dan, Congratulations. You have discovered purple IRON. It is great stuff to work in small pieces, but it is hard as h*ll. I'm afraid I would be too chicken to try a very big table or desk top out of wood this tough unless you have lots of time to spend on the top. On the other hand, a small table might look really neat. I have made a couple of try squares (one with a 24 inch blade) out of purpleheart. Also turned some laminated bowls with one of the laminations being PH, and part of the framework of my turning saw is PH. The rest is maple and walnut. I thought I was going to have a PH spokeshave (received makings from secret santa by way of John G.). Unfortunately, I ended up making an 11 inch long PH toothpick. My shave (second try) ended up being birds' eye maple instead. Not the fault of the PH, though. I just made one too many slices with the chisel where John says 1 in 10 die. Good luck with your project (and plan to spend a lot of time keeping your tools sharp). Frank (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) Dan Notti wrote: > > It's time for a little father/daugter project and the project of choice > is a desk modeled after the Hall Table in the latest FWW. In our > wanderings around the local hardwood store, the daughter part of the > project fell in love with Purpleheart for the top (maple for the rest of > the desk.) So I purchased a small piece to play around with. Herein lies > the rub -- > > Upon getting it home I thought I would smooth it on up and test some > finishes. I had a terrible time trying to use my complement of smoothing > planes. I used the #4, the #604 and the #41/2 (all with SSed Hock irons) > to little avail. The skimmed over the surface with the greatest of ease, > only occationally creating itsy-bitsy curlies. (Use against the grain > resulting in immediate and massive tearout.) Being stumped I turned to > hand scrapers and did worlds better. They seem to work just fine. I just > can't imagine doing the whole desktop this way. > > Questions: Is it my technique or is it the wood? Should I prepare myself > for a marathon scrapering session? Or should I sell my beloved little > partner on the merits of another species? If I do correct the smoothing > problem, can I use some of the promised Paddy-shellac (Super Blonde) for > the finish? > > Dan > Purpled with perplexity in So Cal. ---- Start of Message 59049 (thread 25613) ---- From: "Clarke Green" Date: 1999-03-06 17:04:00 Subject: Re: Working Purpleheart >Congratulations. You have discovered purple IRON. Yeah, one of my buddies at the shipyard called it one of the "tropical concrete woods" Clarke Green ---- Start of Message 59055 (thread 25613) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-03-05 15:25:00 Subject: RE: Working Purpleheart Dan Notti Wrote: >In our >wanderings around the local hardwood store, the daughter part of the >project fell in love with Purpleheart for the top (maple for the rest of >the desk.) So I purchased a small piece to play around with. The only thing I want to know is what kind of hardware store sells purpleheart? Why, I am lucky to just find a knot filled 2X4 at a hardware store! Must be a west coast thing. Keith Rucker Tifton, GA PS, Good going in getting you daughter interested in working with you in the shop! My daughter is only a year and a half and I can only hope that one day she will want to do something in the shop with daddy. ---- Start of Message 59057 (thread 25613) ---- From: "Frank Filippone" Date: 1999-03-05 15:49:00 Subject: RE: Working Purpleheart We just got a lesson on this..... the wood is beautiful, oily, porous, and has an incredible amout of movement due to humidity.....so cutting it is only your first problem.... after that......... it moves all over the place. You need to allow for that movement in your design. A hall table is not an obvious use for the material as in this type of design you usually want to show off tight, perpendicular joints. Think breadboard ends, no grain perpendicular joints. It is porous. It will suck up all the oil you can put on it, then give it back over the timespan of YEARS. Good way to guarantee a visit to your daughter, but wouldn't you rather spend the time with her than a rag rubbing down the Purpleheart? My suggestion: Use it as an accent wood. Make the table out of something more stable. Maybe a thick or thin veneer approach would work nicely and give you the look you want. Frank ---- Start of Message 59133 (thread 25613) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-03-07 08:16:00 Subject: Re: Working Purpleheart -----Original Message----- From: Clarke Green Date: Saturday, 6 March 1999 01:21 Subject: Re: Working Purpleheart >>Congratulations. You have discovered purple IRON. >Yeah, one of my buddies at the shipyard called it one of the "tropical >concrete woods" Try Sydney Blue Gum, if you can find it Stateside. It's at least as hard as purple IRON, but it has tight grain and doesn't move anywhere as much as. It starts out light pink after cutting, then goes deep burgundy after shellac and exposure to light (not sun, just light). Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ---- Start of Message 59139 (thread 25613) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-03-07 18:52:00 Subject: Re: Working Purpleheart GGs: When we were about done beta-testing Ralph Brendler's Shaker Box tutorial last fall, I was having good luck with the traditional maple and cherry for the bands, and noticed that one of the catalog suppliers sold strips of 1/8" thick veneer of various exotics, just about the dimensions required for the bands on a #2-sized box. Feeling adventurous, and knowing next to nothing about how these woods would work up, I ordered a selection (hey, if you bought 5, they would toss another one in fer free--what a deal!). Of course, 1/8" is too thick, so I did the routine I had done with the maple and cherry: #3 and #2 smoothers, #12 1/2 and #112 scrapers. The padauk was such a gaudy orange I just had to try it. Bad mistake. I got it thinned out OK, but while cutting the fingers of the band I knew I was in trouble when the stuff started cracking into little chips. Forging ahead, I boiled it a while in my tray made from folded roof flashing, as I had done with the 7 boxes I had made to that point with no major mishaps. Pulled the padauk strip from the tray and started pushing it around the form. On the first tight end bend, CRACK! and I had two short strips of padauk veneer. Undaunted, I started messing with the purpleheart. This piece had straight and smooth grain, and planing it reminded me of white oak. I managed to get the main band prepped, cooked, and bent, with only minor splintering that I was able to work out in the finishing. But the lid band broke, so I made one of cherry. I had already made the bottom of pine, like the rest of my box bottoms, so I decided to completely flip out and make the lid of maple. The result is sort of a bowling shoe version of a shaker box, with a bright purple main band. I gave the rest of my production away for Xmas, but decided the 4-wood box was so wierd that only I could love it, so I'm keeping it for myself. When Ralph got wind that I had made a shaker box of purpleheart he about p*ked, but it's growing on me. Moral of the story? Learn by doing, don't knock it till you've tried it, and sometimes you can buck conventional wisdom by doing something unconventional. Tom Holloway ++++ End of thread 25613 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25614 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59028 (thread 25614) ---- From: Gil Chesbro Date: 1999-03-05 03:23:00 Subject: Look, Ma: I'm a Teamster! GG's, Speaking of deforestation, I survived the weekend at Tillers, but just barely. I was a student in their draft animal logging class. The idea was that only those students with driving experience would handle the draft animals. Well, as it turned out, it was a smallish class and each student had driving experience, except our humble narrator. Now some of you may recall that I'm a member and a volunteer instructor of woodworking at Tillers. The other instructors there know me and were willing to waive the "experience only" rule in my case. In fact, they were down-right eager. So an hour into class, after felling an ash tree and two cherry in the border woodlot by the railroad tracks, they stuck my behind a pair of huge Belgian draft horses, King & Bill, who, from that angle, bore a passing resemblence to O'Deen and Brendler ;-). I mounted the two-wheeled logging and cart and drove the team around the hay field a couple of times, stopping, starting, backing, and turning the horses, trying to quickly gain some experience of driving. The team was exceptionally well trained. Then the guys yelled "OK: Bring them in," and once again I learned I've got a lot to be humble about. Note well: you don't ride the cart into the woods, less you drive over a sapling, which flips the cart and sends you flying. No, I didn't make that mistake. But instead of standing behind the cart, a led the reins off to the left side, and tried to drive while standing next to King's left flank. Of course, this was like tail-gating a semi-trailer with my Civic: I couldn't see a thing ahead of the team. I was soon in trouble, the left wheel of the cart hard against an ash tree, which prevented all further progress. OK, no problem. I stepped behind the team, shortened up on the reins and said "back!" Two seconds later, the evener (horizontal steel bars that join the traces to the cart) had pinned my legs against the ash at mid-thigh level. My legs were being crushed. Surprisingly, I felt neither fear nor pain. I felt like an idiot. I yelled "Whoa!" and then "Gee around!" (pivot off to the right without going forward). I was free. The team's owner walked up and took the reins. "Yeah, that'll happen i f you're not careful." A few minutes later, I was following the team out the woods while the owner drove and then helped him unhook the log from the tongs. And then, God bless him, he handed me the reins and said "Take 'em back in." Well, I make mistakes, but usually not the same one twice. This time I stood behind the cart and managed not to endanger my own health or anyone else's. I had a ball driving as the team pulled out the next log. The next day, I got to drive the oxen, Lewis and Clark. There are no reins to control a team of oxen. You drive by oral commands, by gestures, and by the occassional application of a whip. Tillers makes their own yokes and oxbows, custom fitting each one to the team. The oxen took the yoke without fussing, but were very reluctant to leave the barn yard. I could easily have out-paced them as we walked to the woodlot had I been on crutches, which, fortunately, I was not. The trip back, with the logs in tow, was much faster. I don't know if they're pace was faster because they werer pulling a load or because they were heading back to the barn yard. Anyway, I had a great time, and again I was reminded of the dangers our predecessors encountered: the woodlot isn't Home Depot. - Gil, still in Michigan ++++ End of thread 25614 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25615 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59030 (thread 25615) ---- From: David Tardiff Date: 1999-03-05 03:28:00 Subject: Fruitwood for lumber Regarding comments that fruitwood is too knotty for tools...consider that the recent trend toward low, easily picked trees is just that, recent, and that a while back there were MANY more apple trees around, the apple being a well-keeping winter staple, and they also tended to be bigger, taller, and less pruned....that's the reason for those tall pointed ladders, after all. So, if you're looking for lumber, look to the OLD, large apple trees, not the new ones. Many orchards have a regular program of removing such old trees and replacing them with short ones, so hang around and ASK. Dave T in Massachusetts, whose relatives in western MA grow apples. ++++ End of thread 25615 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25616 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59033 (thread 25616) ---- From: Mack McKinney Date: 1999-03-05 04:59:00 Subject: Brrr Oak Hey Y'all! Does anyone on the list have any experience with using burr oak? I'm popping out Shaker Tables right now, and laying next to the stack of cherry is a stack of walnut, and laying next to the stack of walnut is... something that came out of the back yard about 2 years ago. Burr oak. Looks REAL blond and pretty hard. Holler at me if you've used it and have any tips, especially on finishing. Thanks! Mack ---- Start of Message 59129 (thread 25616) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-03-03 05:19:00 Subject: Re: Brrr Oak I turned some into mallets, choosing it because it was a bit heavier than the other oaks I had (red and white). It seems to finish a bit better than the other oaks I am familiar with , as it seems to have fewer pores. But all my experience is with one piece of one tree from the woodpile, so I hesitate to generalize-- it was just the heaviest piece on the wood pile . Tung/linseed/beeswax/turpentine did well on the mallet heads. Mack McKinney wrote: > Hey Y'all! > > Does anyone on the list have any experience with using burr oak? I'm > popping out Shaker Tables right now, and laying next to the stack of > cherry is a stack of walnut, and laying next to the stack of walnut > is... something that came out of the back yard about 2 years ago. Burr > oak. Looks REAL blond and pretty hard. Holler at me if you've used it > and have any tips, especially on finishing. > > Thanks! > > Mack > > -- > Mack McKinney > Mailto:MackWB2PCV@G... > http://www.geocities.com/heartland/hills/3741 > > -- ++++ End of thread 25616 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25617 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59035 (thread 25617) ---- From: FrankSronce Date: 1999-03-05 05:27:00 Subject: Felt Question Galoots, Not too long ago we had a thread regarding what kind of felt to use in machinist's tool chests, and more importantly, what to steer clear of. I have searched my memory, my computer's memory, and tried to find it in the archives. No luck. Does anyone have the information handy? Apologies to the porch for taking up bandwidth with something already covered, but my Alzheimer's is obviously acting up again. Frank (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ---- Start of Message 59058 (thread 25617) ---- From: Loganftp@a... Date: 1999-03-05 15:51:00 Subject: Re: Felt Question Frank asks: > Not too long ago we had a thread regarding what kind of felt to use > in machinist's tool chests, and more importantly, what to steer clear > of. I have searched my memory, my computer's memory, and tried to > find it in the archives. No luck. Does anyone have the information > handy? > Apologies to the porch for taking up bandwidth with something already > covered, but my Alzheimer's is obviously acting up again. Re: WTB some felt By Michael Horgan @pacbell.net Wool is the original felt, and is much stronger than the artificial fibers or cotton.The natural fibers in wool are somewhat scaly. When pounded together while wet, these scales interlock, making a felted mass, which can be shaped however you want. Many other fibers require a chemical treatment to "OPEN UP" the fiber to allow it to felt. These chemicals leaching out of the felt later can cause corrosion. Natural wool felt will also have traces of lanolin , the oil that comes from the wool as grown on the sheep, which will help to retard rust in your toolbox. At 05:24 PM 9/16/98 -0600, Bob and Margaret Johnson wrote: I hate to be a wet blanket here, but real felt is made from wool, not cotton. Mcmaster also carries a wool felt but not self adhesive. What makes wool felt "real" and cotton not? Other posters suggested calling the local pool hall - oops - that's the local pool table supplier to ask about good quality wool felt availibilty. I know Gerstner also sells OEM felt for their toolboxes but the price will definately shock you. Good luck, Dave Tobbe Michagaloot ---- Start of Message 59074 (thread 25617) ---- From: FrankSronce Date: 1999-03-05 21:46:00 Subject: Re: Felt Question Dave Tobbe provides felt source info. > I know Gerstner also sells OEM felt for their toolboxes but the price will > definately shock you. You are right. Their price is $30 for a 30 inch X 3 yard roll. Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ---- Start of Message 59076 (thread 25617) ---- From: FrankSronce Date: 1999-03-06 00:33:00 Subject: Re: Felt Question My apologies to Gerstner. I just talked to the local pool table recovering people, and they want $36 a yard for their felt. It is twice as wide as Gerstner's, but that is still almost double their price. The pool table people also said the felt coming off a table is worn thin, or worn through. Not something you would want to use again. There may be exceptions, but not likely according to them. Frank (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) Frank Sronce wrote: > > Dave Tobbe provides felt source info. > > > > > I know Gerstner also sells OEM felt for their toolboxes but the price will > > definately shock you. > > You are right. Their price is $30 for a 30 inch X 3 yard roll. > > Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) > > -- ---- Start of Message 59077 (thread 25617) ---- From: "Clarke Green" Date: 1999-03-07 03:55:00 Subject: Re: Felt Question Wool felt used to cover pool tables, wears like iron. Get it from your local billiards table shop. Clarke Green ++++ End of thread 25617 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25618 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59040 (thread 25618) ---- From: Phil and Debbie Koontz Date: 1999-03-05 04:37:00 Subject: Patrick O'Brian and woodworking Galooties all-- Eric Breitenberger mentioned Pat O'Brian's fiction a while back during the thread on decimating hardwoods. I thought I would toss in a couple of juicy quotes from his account of the war of 1812-- "...Presently you will see that twin jury mainmast of hers replaced by something less horrible made up from everything you can imagine by Mr. Bentley and that valuable carpenter we rescued: upper-tree, side-trees, heel-pieces, side fishes, cheeks, front-fish and cant-pieces, all scarfed, coaked, bolted, hooped, and woolded together; it will be a wonderful sight when it is finished, as solid as the Ark of the Covenant...." (Joinery on the high seas, from THE WINE-DARK SEA, where Captain Aubrey is talking about the newly captured American privateer, the Franklin) And on a more sinister note, the war degenerated to the point of stealing tools when the crews of two frigates were simultaneously stranded on an island. (from THE FAR SIDE OF THE WORLD)-- "...Another group came up to the carpenters and asked them what they were doing - commended their tools, their workmanship - said they too would presently be building their own boat, now the wreck was breaking up - and talked on at some length in spite of surly answers or none at all. Then suddenly their leader cried 'Look! Look!' pointing inland. The carpenters turned their heads. The Norfolks seized a compass-saw, a sheet of the launch's copper, a handful of spikes, a pair of pincers, a small auger and a rasp and ran away laughing. ....The Surprises had two carpenter's axes and an adze and they would have gone on to recover the tools if they had not been stopped this side of the water by an enormous roar of 'Belay, there' from Captain Aubrey, some way up the hill. They hurried back to him, the carpenters all talking together, calling for an instant raid with the pikemen to recover the tools. 'Mr. Lamb,' he asked, 'how necessary are the lost tools for the immediate work in hand?' But he was obliged to shake the carpenter by the shoulder before Lamb's face, pale with fury, showed much sense, and shake him again before he made a coherent reply to the effect that the compass-saw would be needed tomorrow." I may have to start the 19 volume series over again. Which means my tag lines will be taken care of for months to come. Phil Koontz I guess they weren't really OLD tools at the time.... ++++ End of thread 25618 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25619 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59046 (thread 25619) ---- From: Jim Thoreson Date: 1999-03-05 13:31:00 Subject: Refinishing totes All knowledgeable Galoots, Being somewhat new here, I thought I could draw on your collective insi ght & wisdom. I have need to refinish some beat up plane totes. I have read here that the best way to finish them is, (or so most Galoots seem to) use an oil finish on them when done. My question is, what is the best way do dispose of the finish that may be or partially be left on them. I understand that most were shipped out with a varnish finish. Is there any suggestions as to method or products that work well. Thanks in advance, Jim Thoreson (where in N. Mich. we have an additional 6" of white stuff, anyone seen the sun?) (j_thor@e...) BTW, is there any other Galoots in Michigan north of Big Rapids? Just wondering. ---- Start of Message 59051 (thread 25619) ---- From: Walter Barry Date: 1999-03-05 17:39:00 Subject: RE: Refinishing totes > ....what is the best way do dispose of the finish that may be or partially > be left on them. I understand that most were shipped out with a varnish > finish. Is there any suggestions as to method or products that work well. If we're talking Stanley type totes, I don't refinish unless in bad shape covered with old paint or glue droppings. Then use a hand scraper, to remove the gunk. Then a stripper to dissolve the remaining finish. Behlens makes a wipe on-wipe off product call "Furniture Refinisher" that's great for dissolving most old finishes, and allows much control of the removal process. To refinance, don't use an oil-varnish, like Watco, as it'll turn the Rosewood black. So have been my experiences with Shellac. Use a can of clear spray lacquer. I mount the tote and knob to a small board using standard 1/4 screws into threaded brass inserts. Do a couple of coats and buff it smooth on a wheel. Walter worked for me ---- Start of Message 59053 (thread 25619) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-05 15:15:00 Subject: Re: Refinishing totes >here that the best way to finish them is, (or so most Galoots seem to) use >an oil finish on them when done. My question is, what is the best way do Jim, IMHO the oil finish has three advantages: easy to apply, easy to repair, and helps on blisters if you intend to plane a lot. I have tung oiled, boiled linseed oiled, and even Sam Maloof's recipe oiled. All have their subtle looks and points. I hate to disturb the original finish. But sometimes the tote/knob combo is just in too bad shape to leave alone and just wax. When I began, I would strip the old finish with CitriStrip (which is pretty mild) and wash well in paint thinner. Let dry for a couple days and then oil and wax it with Renaissance Wax. Its very expensive and can be found most places mail order for about $18. Comes in a 200ml can and its museum quality (so they say right on the can) ;-). I bought some 4 yrs ago and have only used half a can. It goes on very light and dries on touch. This tote/knob had been pretty beat up and the result gave me blisters. Now I was pretty romantic and figured I was on the way to Galoot calluses. Never happened. My blisters just multiplied. So I stripped them again, and sanded them smooth and repeated the process (to the knob/tote Spokeshave: not the blisters). The tote and knob 'felt' great, no blisters, looked ok, and I also felt sick at removing all that history. If you have the time, you might try what I do now sometimes. Strip it down with CitriStrip, wash with paint thinner, let dry a day and put on a thin coat of 'white or clear shellac' from a spray can. You can usually find it in the paint finish dept, just make sure before you leave that its not old (dates on bottom) and it will spray thru the nozzle. Most stores will lend you cardboard or have a spray board setup. Wait about 3 hours. Now sand most of it off with 180 grit. Stop when you get to the rosewood. Tack it down and spray another coat. Spray, dry, sand. Each time you are filling in all the various chips, scratches, and imperfections with shellac and slowly building a smooth unbroken surface. It takes a lot of coats to fill up some of these craters, so be patient and keep doing it. Sooner or later the process speeds up as you get closer and closer to the tops of all the nicks and craters. When you have reached sanding only shellac, stop and switch to fine steel wool and top coat it with a couple thin coats of spraycan lacquer and sand with #600 grit, very lightly. Wax and your done. What do you get for all this time and work? What looks like a stunning lacquered knob and tote at first glance. Look closer and all the nicks and imperfections are still there, just with an ever slight 'amber' hue caused by the minute rosewood dust in the sanding steps. The surface is smooth and feels as good as when it was new. Looks more like they were preserved then nuked. Its resembles a 'Piano finish' or french polishing. BTW it goes much faster for the knob if you can chuck it up on a dowel on a lathe. Just aim and spray while its spinning at a slow-medium speed. DangerWillRobinson. You may end up spending more time just staring at your finished plane then using it. And picking up ratty planes just to do it again. The best part is that you can strip it back and youre back at the start, sans all the time and effort of course. Rick Garza PlaneDreamer ---- Start of Message 59091 (thread 25619) ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 1999-03-06 09:08:00 Subject: Re: Refinishing totes Jim, > Being somewhat new here, I thought I could draw on your collective insi ght >& wisdom. I have need to refinish some beat up plane totes. I have read >here that the best way to finish them is, (or so most Galoots seem to) use >an oil finish on them when done. My question is, what is the best way do >dispose of the finish that may be or partially be left on them. I >understand that most were shipped out with a varnish finish. Word is that they used lacquer, not varnish, for totes. I have used clear spray lacquer after repairing broken totes and it matches the original finish quite well. The residual oils in the wood will affect the drying time of the lacquer but it will harden. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Will Work For Tools A Field Guide To Millers Falls Type 1 Planes is featured at The Galoot's Progress: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ++++ End of thread 25619 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25620 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59047 (thread 25620) ---- From: Roeder/Kraft Date: 1999-03-05 13:52:00 Subject: Schnitzelbank Letuere Erik wrote: > >> > I had to run this by my Deutsche Frau, Nina. > She laughed because the word is > Schnitzbank without the extra syllable > in the middle. Schitzel of course is > a breaded and pan-fried loin of pork. While most Germans today would think of a pork tenderloin when they hear the word 'Schnitzel," this would not always have been the case. In some parts of the German-speaking world, the 'el' ending on the word was equivalent to today's use of the suffixes 'chen' and 'lein.' These are diminuative endings, so literally a Schnitzel would be a 'little cutting' -- ie., a shaving. For the most part, the diminuative endings are used to indicate something of small size or to show endearment. In some regions, however, the use of the diminuative endings has slipped into everyday parlance and has become a way of describing familiar and comfortable objects or of putting another individual at ease. The Swiss are especially renowned for this sort of usage. I imagine that 'Schnitzelbank' originated with one of the diminuative obsessed dialects. The term is familiar to many Americans who learned it as the first line of a humorous song used to teach young children a bit of the German language in the late 19th and early 20th century. The song was usually accompanied by a wall chart complete with pictures of a shaving horse, an ox bladder, etc. All together now, a-one, a-two, a-three... Teacher: Ist das nicht ein Schnitzelbank? Class: Ja, das is ein Schnitzelbank! Is das nicht nun krumm und quer? Ja, das ist nun krumm und quer? Ist das nicht ein Ochsenblas? Ja, das is ein Ochsenblas? etc. etc. Chorus: O die schoene, o die schoene, o die schoene Schnitzelbank! Repeat until die Hirne schwimmen... Randy Roeder Malen Haeuser wieder, nicht alten Werkzeugen. ---- Start of Message 59048 (thread 25620) ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 1999-03-05 14:04:00 Subject: Re: Schnitzelbank Letuere At 07:52 AM 3/5/99 -0600, Roeder/Kraft wrote: >as the first line of a humorous song used to teach young children a bit >of the German language in the late 19th and early 20th century. The song > >was usually accompanied by a wall chart complete with pictures of a >shaving horse, an ox bladder, etc. > >All together now, a-one, a-two, a-three... > >Teacher: Ist das nicht ein Schnitzelbank? >Class: Ja, das is ein Schnitzelbank! > I just saw one of those posters in an antique shop couple of weeks ago. Of course this being the PA Dutch (ie Deutsch) region, not surprizing. Tony ________________________________________________________ One's an interest, two's a collection, three's an obsession! ________________________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 59096 (thread 25620) ---- From: Chuck Phillips Date: 1999-03-06 14:11:00 Subject: Re: Schnitzelbank Letuere In article <36DFE1A3.83890958@m...> on Fri, 05 Mar 1999 07:52:35 -0600, Roeder/Kraft wrote: << The term is familiar to many Americans who learned it as the first line of a humorous song used to teach young children a bit of the German language in the late 19th and early 20th century. >> Call me a young pup, but the first thing that came to me was an Anamaniacs piece called "The Friendship Song." Is this not a piece of bread? Ja, this is a piece of bread! Does it fit in Wakko's head? Ja, it fits in Wakko's head! etc, etc, etc... ` Chuck Phillips Having fun in the House of a Thousand Projects. ++++ End of thread 25620 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25621 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59050 (thread 25621) ---- From: "Michael" Date: 1999-03-05 15:00:00 Subject: Advice please. This has nothing to do with oldtools {for the moment}, but is there anybody out there who in involved in big book publishing, or who can put me in touch with someone who can advise me on the 'etiquette' of American publishing. Many thanks. Mike. ++++ End of thread 25621 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25622 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59059 (thread 25622) ---- From: "Bill Taggart" Date: 1999-03-05 16:19:00 Subject: Southeast Galoots? Well, since I'll be on the road in the Southeast for business over the next couple of weeks, I figured I'd continue trying to meet Galoots along the way... Anyone in the following areas, if ya want to get together and have a beer and swap old tool stories, or whatever, reply off-list... I'll be in: Orlando, FL Mar. 7-8 Atlanta, GA Mar. 10-12 Nashville, TN Mar. 14-15 Charlotte, NC Mar. 17-19 Memphis, TN Mar. 20-22 On the inbetween days, I'll be literally "on the road", driving from/to, so if you know of anything I should stop and see, let me know... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bill Taggart At home in Califon, NJ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ++++ End of thread 25622 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25623 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59060 (thread 25623) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-03-05 16:44:00 Subject: Ohio Tool Co. Info? Fellow Galoots, I recently picked up a nice woodie dado plane made by Ohio Tool Co. from a fellow galoot (thanks Wes). This is my first woodie and has opened up a new slide on the slippery slope. Since I received this plane, I have become interested in the Ohio Tool Co. and was wondering if there is any info out there on this company? I would really like to know about their line of wooden planes. I know that each is stamped with a number and I would think that somewhere there would be a catalog of some kind that list each plane in their line as well as maybe even profiles of the cut. Is there any such info out there in a published format or does anyone have copies of old catalogs. I am not really interested in obtaining an original copy of a catalog, but I sure would like to get my hands on a re-print or even a photo copy if such exist. Any help appreciated, Keith Rucker Tifton, GA ---- Start of Message 59067 (thread 25623) ---- From: Joe Jerkins Date: 1999-03-05 18:21:00 Subject: Re: Ohio Tool Co. Info? Keith, I just happen to have Pollak's book* with me at work today. I quote. (delete at this point unless you want to read direct from the book quotes) "OHIO TOOL COMPANY A major plane manufacturing company in the 19th and early 20th centuries. It was incorporated in Columbus, HO in 1851 by Peter Hayden and others, and had a tradition of periodically utilizing prison labor. The first president was George Gere, a hardware dealer. In 1851 the company reported employing 200 hands, with carpenter's planes as the main line. By the 1870's and 1880's, the ready acceptance of metal and transitional planes, and other competition, was increasingly felt. In 1887, the company employed only 70 hand (the use of prison labor having ceased in 1880) and in 1893 Ohio Tool merged with Auburn Tool Co, with Ohio Tool the survivor. In 1913 the Ohio factory was destroyed by a flood and in 1914 manufacturing was re-established in a new plant in Charlestown, WV. Operations ceased in 1920. The 1910 price list still offered an extensive line of wooden planes. A style number usually appears on imprint H in the space under "Ohio Tool Co." A through E: found frequently (>500 examples) F: uncommon (250-500 examples) G & H: rare (100-250 examples)" Peter Hayden is listed separately " P. Hayden & Co. -- Peter Hayden was a plane maker in Columbus, OH, who began to employ prison labor to produce carpenter, joiner and cabinet tools in 1842. The firm continued at least until 1851, when it became the Ohio Tool Co. Hayden was subsequently a director of the Ohio Tool Co. and instrumental in getting it the Ohio Penitentiary convict labor contract in 1851." Hope this helps. Joe Jerkins San Francisco, CA Thinking of the tread on OSHA and how it would differ, if at all, in a plant with prison labor vs. "open market" labor... * "A Guide to the Makers of American Wooden Planes" by Emil and Martyl Pollak 3rd edition. copyright 1994 Astragal press page 281 & 184 ---- Start of Message 59069 (thread 25623) ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" Date: 1999-03-05 18:44:00 Subject: RE: Ohio Tool Co. Info? Joe Jerkins Wrote: *snip* >A style number usually >appears on imprint H in the space under "Ohio Tool Co." A through E: >found frequently (>500 examples) F: uncommon (250-500 examples) G & >H: rare (100-250 examples)" *end snip* Cool, mine has a F imprint. What exactly are these styles anyway? Keith Rucker Tifton, GA ++++ End of thread 25623 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25624 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59062 (thread 25624) ---- From: "Bob Key" Date: 1999-03-05 17:36:00 Subject: A Good Use For Purpleheart Purpleheart makes the best bench dogs of any material I've used. It's hard but it won't tear up your tools if you hit it accidentally. It's easy to see when your bench is covered with shavings. It doesn't wear much. I like to screw on a strip of hickory for a spring and it holds the screw very well. -Bob Key. ---- Start of Message 59073 (thread 25624) ---- From: FrankSronce Date: 1999-03-05 21:34:00 Subject: Re: A Good Use For Purpleheart A variation - my bench dogs are made of mahogany with purpleheart springs. Definitely strong enough to hold the dogs up. :-) Frank (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) Bob Key wrote: > > Purpleheart makes the best bench dogs of any material I've used. > It's hard but it won't tear up your tools if you hit it accidentally. It's > easy to see when your bench is covered with shavings. It doesn't > wear much. I like to screw on a strip of hickory for a spring and it > holds the screw very well. > > -Bob Key. > > -- ---- Start of Message 59075 (thread 25624) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-03-05 23:18:00 Subject: Re: A Good Use For Purpleheart At 12:36 PM -0500 3/5/99, Bob Key wrote: >Purpleheart makes the best bench dogs of any material I've used. quite right! I ordered some 3/4" PurpleHeart dowel stock from Lee Valley a while ago.... it ended up becomomg some really schzazzy dogs. ++++ End of thread 25624 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25625 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59063 (thread 25625) ---- From: Roeder/Kraft Date: 1999-03-05 17:34:00 Subject: Regional planemaking styles repost I don't know if this went through, so I'm trying again. Hi all, I recently came across a statement in a tool sale list that mentioned that a plane was 'flat-bottomed in the Pennsylvania style.' I hear and see such references from time to time. Most of the molding planes in my collection are post-1840 and so are fairly uniform, so regional variations are pretty much a mystery to me. Other than having the vague impression that yellow birch was favored in early New England, my knowledge about regional variations is almost nil. I'd be delighted if some of the wooden plane buffs would want to post every single scrap of what they know about regional styles. My tool reference collection just doesn't have anything on this topic. Randy Roeder -- perhaps there's not much to say about this and regional differences really don't exist? ++++ End of thread 25625 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25626 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59065 (thread 25626) ---- From: Darrell LaRue Date: 1999-03-05 18:06:00 Subject: Floating away... Galoots, Summary: I made a coupla floats. The gory details: A few weeks ago I had some time to putter away in the shop. You know, during that lull between the Christmas Gift Rush (which ends about Jan 31 around here ;^) and the impending hinting from SWMBO about all the other projects that are on that ancient dusty scroll labelled "To Do". I rummaged about in the scrap metal bin and found a couple of old triangular files that had definitely seen better days. Ah, I says to myself, I can make something outta this! After I took dinner off the grill, I buried the files under the 'lava-rock' and left the heat on full blast while we ate. I went out after dinner and checked; 'twas a nice toasty orange-red colour. OK, Shut off the grill. Once the kids were all abed I dug out the (hopefully) annealed files and tested them. Yup. Soft. I drawfiled the old teeth off one of them and then proceeded to lay out the new teeth. First try was 8 tpi, not very accurately laid out, but what the heck... Hey, it's hard to hold a triangular file in a vise and still be able to work on it; keeps wanting to jump out of the vise! After about an hour and a half of filing I had a float. Not a thing of beauty to be sure, but it *works*, and I now have every confidence that I can easily produce a few more in whatever size & shape I need. So long as I have a couple of hours and some bandages for the blisters. One thing I did note was that you should cut as many teeth as you can at one time. One pass with the file on each tooth. This produces much more even teeth than trying to file away the entire thing one full tooth at a time. The first half a dozen teeth are real mutants, but the rest are pretty good. Afterwards I recalled something I read about saw sharpening, and checked out some FAQ materials I had, and sure enough, when filing teeth on a saw you don't do a whole tooth all at once. Spread the work out amoungst all the teeth a bit at a time and the results will be more even and predictable. Same applies to floats. Just goes to show ya, You re-learn something every day! The second float blank sat on the bench for a while. When I laid out the teeth I tried 10 tpi, and I was a lot more careful with the layout and the filing. This one is also a bit wider, and it took longer to file, as there was more metal to file away. As it turns out I shouldn't have been so careful! The float chatters a bit in use, seemingly because the teeth are too even(?) The first one has teeth every which-way (different angles & sizes & profiles) and it produces a smooth fast cut. I'll try and mess up a few of the teeth on the 10tpi float and see if the performance improves. Anybody out there got some vintage floats? How even are the teeth on them? I may try hardening and tempering these floats, but I will probably wait until I have another one to go with them. There's still that big hunk of 3/16" O1 sitting around someplace in the shop... maybe I should try a 1" wide float next time. With graduated teeth: 12tpi at the tip to 8tpi at the base. Darrell Man is separated from Animal by virtue of being a Tool User. Galoot is separated from Man by virtue of being a Tool Hoarder. ++++ End of thread 25626 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25627 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59066 (thread 25627) ---- From: jgbaron@u... Date: 1999-03-05 18:17:00 Subject: Galooting in Munich GG's -- I'll be over in Munich Germany for a few days next week. As usual, little or no spare time, no car, staying close to city center. I almost hesitate to ask (because I never seem to be able to follow through), but is there anything galootish and not-to-be-missed in Munich? Regards, Joe _______________________________________________________ Joseph G. Baron Internet: jgbaron@u... ---- Start of Message 59068 (thread 25627) ---- From: Ed_Balko@E... Date: 1999-03-05 18:37:00 Subject: Re: Galooting in Munich Joe asked: "is there anything galootish and not-to-be-missed in Munich?" Provided you make it past all of the beer halls, try the Deutsches Museum - sor t of a German equvalent to the Smithsonian in a lot of ways. Ed Balko Middletown, NJ The small glasses are one liter capacity in some of those places. ---- Start of Message 59078 (thread 25627) ---- From: "Frank Filippone" Date: 1999-03-06 01:35:00 Subject: RE: Galooting in Munich The fishing and Hunting museum in the walking area of Munich, near the big Cathedral......Does it qualify? My wife hated it! Frank GG's -- I'll be over in Munich Germany for a few days next week. As usual, little or no spare time, no car, staying close to city center. I almost hesitate to ask (because I never seem to be able to follow through), but is there anything galootish and not-to-be-missed in Munich? ---- Start of Message 59079 (thread 25627) ---- From: Newbold Date: 1999-03-06 02:03:00 Subject: Re: Galooting in Munich Joe Baron is off to schnitzelbank land.... >GG's -- I'll be over in Munich Germany for a few days next week. As usual, >little or no spare time, no car, staying close to city center. I almost Be sure to see the Deutsche Museum, it is a huge multi-story museum of tools, machinery, and inventions through several centuries. Also, check out almost any old cathedral in the city. The old ones have extensive carvings on pulpits, panels, walls and doors, typically in walnut and oak. If you are into carving at all, Oberammergau is a day-trip bus ride from Munich. Germany has an excellent bus and train system. Your hotel staff should be able to set up with a bus tour. There are extensive carving shops and schools there. Several of the shops specialize in inlay and intarsia as well. Much of the carved religious statuary originated in Oberammergau, which is also home of the Passion Plays. I saw some really amazing stuff when I was there about 25 years ago. Oh yeah, have a schnitzel and some spaetzel for me, Charlie Newbold ---- Start of Message 59376 (thread 25627) ---- From: "DuPrie, James" Date: 1999-03-11 12:50:00 Subject: RE: Galooting in Munich What he said! Amazing place - you could easily spend 2-3 days there. If you're into mines and tunnels, make sure you catch the coal mine tour (If you try, you can get "lost", and explore a bunch of it that it closed ot he public).... Bit of trivia: acording to a contact I have inside the museum, once a year, they actually *run* all ofhte equipment in the museum - its set up with a fully functioning item, and next to it is the same item disasembled or cut open so you can see how it works. I'd give alot to see some of those old steam beasties run... -JD > -----Original Message----- > From: Ed_Balko@E... [mailto:Ed_Balko@E...] > Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 1:37 PM > To: jgbaron@u... > Cc: oldtools@l... > Subject: Re: Galooting in Munich > > > > > Joe asked: > > "is > there anything galootish and not-to-be-missed in Munich?" > > > Provided you make it past all of the beer halls, try the > Deutsches Museum - sort > of a German equvalent to the Smithsonian in a lot of ways. > > > Ed Balko > Middletown, NJ > The small glasses are one liter capacity in some of those places. > > > -- > > ++++ End of thread 25627 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25628 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59070 (thread 25628) ---- From: "David Barnett" Date: 1999-03-05 19:10:00 Subject: WTB: 2 3/8" tapered double iron A smidgeon narrower than 2 3/8" would be fine, but not an angstrom wider, please. Good condition, good steel and a bit of length more important than maker. David Barnett Northampton, MA ++++ End of thread 25628 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25629 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59072 (thread 25629) ---- From: Lee Sudlow Date: 1999-03-05 19:37:00 Subject: I finished my SJB smoother (long) Morning gentle ones Summary: I finished the St. James Bay smoother project. Neener neener neener. Long-winded version: It has been a long-time coming. But, here goes: Woooo Hoooo! I started this project with the intention of building the SJB smoother as much as possible using tools and methods of the 19th century. Well, at least I tried. A few electrons had to die to finish some parts of the project. More on that later. The casting, as has been pointed out before, comes from the foundry that SJB uses as a very rough casting. Only the sprue has been removed. The sole of my casting was more than 1/16 in concave. The sides and bottom were smoothed using nothing more than a 14in. single cut mill bastard file, one stroke at a time. Boys and girls, don't do this at home. As well intentioned as my idea was, it took forever to remove enough of the silicon bronze to bring the casting up to anything resembling smooth. After countless hours of filing on the casting, the sides and bottom were smooth. Final lapping was done on silicon carbide paper. It was during this first stage of plane construction that my smoother put in its first appearance at a Midwest Galootapalooza held in Ralph Brendler's backyard. The project then stalled as I built up the courage to open the mouth. I didn't have access to an old milling machine, so I had to turn to my first tailed apprentice: the drill press. After a lot of high school geometry, the line across the sole where the mouth would be was opened as a series of closely spaced holes. In another moment of weakness, and frankly my mini-files were no match for the silicon bronze of the casting, I turned to a Dremel tool to finish the connections between the holes. Now, a thin 8 in. mill file could get in and begin the process of smoothing the angle in the foot of the casting designed to accept of the blade. After the final strokes with the file, and another appearance at another Galootfest at the Witte auction in Indianapolis, the project stalled again. This time, the project stalled while I tracked down some honduran rosewood. I don't get over to the Woodcraft in Indianapolis very often, but the one time last year that I did I found an 8 in wide plank of rosewood. It just had to come home with me. The rosewood was only a little over 1 in. thick. So, the rear infill was designed out of a 1 in. thick center section with 1/2 in. thick side sections. Out came the third and final apprentice. The infill sections were cut out on a bandsaw. The center section was designed with a closed tote, so back to the drillpress to start the holes. The waste was removed, slowly, with a coping saw. All shaping of the tote was done with half round rasps of sculptors rasps to round the edges. The front bun infill was shaped out of two 1 in. thick pieces. The front and rear infills were slowly shaped to fit the casting. Glue-up was done with System3 24hr. epoxy. The pieces were fit and epoxied into the casting. Yeah, I know, the Norris craftsmen didn't have epoxy. They had exerience. They probably also had every possible jig to hold the unit together. The holes for the lever cap were drilled as were the holes for the infill pins. The lever cap was clamped in the appropriate position over the blade and the holes were started. I was planning on using the spring-loaded cap pin idea from Kingshot's book. The holes in the cap were 0.25 in. while the holes in the casting body were stepped down. The pins were leftovers from a set of garage-door bearings found at a local DIY store. Last but not least, the blade was checked for how well it seated on the casting. Prussian blue artists paint was wiped onto the bottom of the blade. With the lever cap removed, the blade was seated into the casting. High spots, indicated by deposited paint, were slowly (and carefully) removed with a 8in mill file. Last night, the infill pins were peaned over and filed and lapped flat. The blade was Scary Sharpened (tm) and mounted in the plane. A little futzing here, and little tweaking there and it was time to check it out. I had a scrap of Paul Taran's curly maple (kindly donated by Ralph Brendler) in the pile. I thought this would be a solid test of how well my plane performed if it could handle the maple. Snick swish. A shaving so thin my vernier caliper couldn't measure it. My micrometer is still lost in a packing box from the last move, so I'm not sure what was the thickness of that final first cut. I saved it and am bringing it along to Witte's auction this weekend. All that is left is cosmetic. I still have a little fine tuning of the stuffing (a little sanding here, a little touch of rasping there, a little more lapping, a touch of shellac and varnich there...) For that, I'm waiting on O'Deen's new shellac shipment. But, I'm done! I still have the little plane (chariot?) left to do. Next time, the electrons die whenever possible. That metalworking is a pain. And I've got the aches to prove it. Later guys. I need to go and get ready to head for Indy. The Witte preview is tonight. As soon as the shellac and varnish are on the smoother, I'll find someway to get a picture of this up on the web. Lee Sudlow IT#97 Department of Molecular and Integrative Physiology University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. ++++ End of thread 25629 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25630 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59080 (thread 25630) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-03-06 02:13:00 Subject: Thanks MI Galoots! I just wanted to send a special not of thanks to the folks who stayed up _way_ too late to wait for me to arive when I missed a connecting flight and got to Detroit two and a half hours later than scheduled. You guys made the "trip from hell" a lot brighter than it could have been. matter of fact it was the high-point of the entire 3 -day fiasco. ++++ End of thread 25630 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25631 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59084 (thread 25631) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-06 03:49:00 Subject: Magz misc GGs: Anybody pick up the latest American Woodworker and see the fine article on making your own small carving tools? The howto's I have all assume a blacksmithing perspective. The author's homebrew use of simple sockets and bolts to sub out traditional methods was encouraging to those shying away from toolmaking... Latest mechanics mag ( the one with Jay Leno on the cover) has yet another article on plane use and basics from Rosario. He gets my vote for the PinkBunny. He just keeps on going and going and going....... Rick Garza ++++ End of thread 25631 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25632 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59086 (thread 25632) ---- From: tom thornton Date: 1999-03-06 07:03:00 Subject: Life before -- I can recall, in my home town of Buffalo, in the 30's we had it all, mills, steel, contruction. If you worked for a large company and got hurt you had a chance of staying on doing whatever you could do. I hand one friend who worked in the mills grinding flour, use to stick his hand into the mill to see if the grind was fine enf. Finally stuck the hand in too far and lost his fingers. They kept him on until he retired cause he was skilled enf to know how to set the mills. Had another neighbor who worked for the railroad, seemed a awful lot of folks there worked for the railroad. He got banged up between some cars and lost part of his leg. He stayed on with a wooden leg as a watchman. I sort of felt if you would work in time you found work. And as long as you could work you did. While I recall John L Lewis calling the miners strike for better working conditions seems Roosevelt got it settled I dont know how the miners made out. Seems to me they were pretty much piece work. You got paid for what you did. Between WW2 and Korea I did a lot of equipment service in a number of cities in mostly industrial plants. While I worked around the foundries and mills I dont know exactly how the workers were compensated. However I do know If there was any way to measure each mans output, it was used. The polite term was 'piece work' and simply you got paid for what you produced. No work no pay. I recall a glass pouring team in a glass factory. They, about three, fellows got paid for the number of sheets they poured and got moved into the annealing furnace without the sheet buckling. All the glass, grinders, assemblers , really everyone but the office workers were on some kind of piece work. Most all the large works had medical office on site with at least a nurse. The small companies however had no benefits and some paid daily so again you delivered or no pay. The only lumber folks I was familar with was a wooden box mfgr and he was seasonal, shut down in winter. His work depended in the output of other plants who used his boxes. With the exception of his shop man seems everybody else was day labor, mebby for a week or month, but not very steady. Also recall one fellow made a good living selling, and building garages. He had one shop man who precut everything. One foreman who would hire one or two helpers by the week and they built garages. He also had a hardware store that let him get all his material wholesale, his office girl ran that and kept the books. When he made enf he sold the business and left for Florida..... So I sort of got the impression whatever you did you would measure your output and be paid accordingly. The possibility of that becoming intermittent is why the currenty unemployment programs were developed. Tom Thornton, Collector of old tools, specializing in hand cranked grindstones Cincinnati #3, F&AM, Morristown, New Jersey, USA ++++ End of thread 25632 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25633 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59090 (thread 25633) ---- From: Tony Blanks Date: 1999-03-06 05:28:00 Subject: WTB: Handle for MF #1 Friends, Found a nice but well use MF #1 eggbeater at the market this morning, The red on the gear wheel is more a rust colored memory, and the black paint (japanning?) on the frame is mostly notable for its absence. But, there is no real rust, the chuck is OK and there were still 6 of the original 8 bits inside the top handle. Unfortunately the side (auxillary) handle is gone. Not the one on the gear wheel, the other, larger one. If anyone has one to spare I'd be grateful. Also still looking for short auger bits (dowelling bits), but now Karl is looking for them too... Regards, Tony B Hobart, Tasmania ++++ End of thread 25633 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25634 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59092 (thread 25634) ---- From: snoe749@i... Date: 1999-03-06 12:44:00 Subject: Just A Vignette I was leaving Ralph Brendler's motel room, last night, after the pre-Tom Witte Auction Galootfest, and I heard (to Lee Sudlow): "Well, it looks like it's just you, me, and three gallons of beer." OT content - Lee homebrews just about the finest beer I've tasted. Steve Noe, in Indianapolis snoe749@i... ++++ End of thread 25634 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25635 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59094 (thread 25635) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-03-06 13:25:00 Subject: how to value a log I've found someone selling a black cherry log that's 20' x 17". How do you go about estimating the amount of board feet that you might get out of it? I can easily calculate it's volume but is there a rule of thumb for estimating the amount of waste? Thanks Dan ---- Start of Message 59100 (thread 25635) ---- From: "Brian L. Pennington" Date: 1999-03-06 09:56:00 Subject: Re: how to value a log Dan Indrigo asks how to calculate board feet yield for a log. I suspose the Galoot answer would be to use a log rule. Measure across the small end diameter of the log with the reading taken within the bark. Estimate the length and read the BF off the rule. Not having a log rule you could fall back on Doyle's formula: BF = (Diameter-4)Squared times Length/16 Diameter in inches Length in feet Not the most accurate for scaling smaller logs with an error approaching 50% for a log 10 inches in diameter. However it was the most extensively used scale probably due to the advantage it gave the buyer especially for smaller diameter logs. Scribner's scale is considered fairly accurate for logs 16 feet or less in length and 28 inches in diameter but slightly favors the buyer for logs larger than this according to Philip Stanley. A quick comparison from a table in a Lufkin reprint for a 16 foot log 17 inches in diameter: Doyle's Scale : 169 BF Scribner's Scale : 185 BF Brief history of the scales for anyone who is still reading or cares extracted from Philip Stanley's Boxwood and Ivory: The Doyle scale was published in 1825. The Scribner rule used a diagram method to determine the BF and was developed in 1846 by J.M. Scribner, a country clergyman. Diagram method is just like it sounds. Draw a diagram on a circle based on sawing patterns with allowance made for kerfs and shrinkage. Good potential for accuracy so long as assumptions used mirrored real conditions. Doyle's rule was replaced by the more accurate Scribner rule which went out of print in the 1850's. However, in 1876 a publisher who had purchased the rights to Scribner's and well as Doyle's guide books decided to reissue Scribner's book. For some reason when he re-released "Scribner's Lumber and Log Book" he substituted Doyle's tables with minor revisions for Scribners. This scale was now know as "Doyle's Revised", "New Scribner" and "New" and was in common use for some time after. Sounds like perhaps an intentional misinformation plan created for the benefit of the sawmills based on the advantage Doyle gave to the log buyer. Best, Brian Pennington Manhattan, KS > ---- Start of Message 59104 (thread 25635) ---- From: "Becky & Tim Hammond" Date: 1999-03-06 17:57:00 Subject: Re: how to value a log Daniel Idrigo asked about estimating volume and value of a log. Estimating the volume and estimating the value are two different tasks. I can give you some tips on estimating volume, but I've never worked in an area where cherry grows, so I can't speak to value. Tables for estimating the board-foot volume of a log are called log rules. Be aware that the estimate derived from any log rule will not be the same as the number of board feet a sawyer gets from a log. The three most common are the Scribner Decimal C Log Rule, the International Log Rule, and the Doyle Log Rule. For your 17" by 20' log, the estimates from these three log rules are: Scribner Decimal C = 230 bf International = 265 bf Doyle = 211 bf As a general rule, the international rule is a fairly good measure of actual yield *IF* the entire log is cut into 1" boards with a 1/4" kerf. For a logs less than 25", the Doyle rule is generally an under estimate. The same goes for Scribner Decimal C for logs less than 20". But don't go pay for 265 bf of cherry yet. Gross scale and net scale are only the same for straight, defect free logs. When scaling logs, you can only make adjustments for defects that affect volume (i.e., rot, shakes, splits, sweep, hollow butts, etc.), not grade. A pretty good reference for adjusting scale for defects is Forest Measurements by Avery Burkhart. I don't have my copy here at home, but if you have trouble finding it, let me know and I'll look up the ISBN. Hope this helps. Tim Hammond Fairbanks, Alaska ---- Start of Message 59115 (thread 25635) ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 1999-03-07 01:08:00 Subject: Re: how to value a log At 08:25 AM 3/6/99 -0500, you wrote: >I've found someone selling a black cherry log that's 20' x 17". How do >you go about estimating the amount of board feet that you might get out >of it? I can easily calculate it's volume but is there a rule of thumb >for estimating the amount of waste? The real answer is to call a local sawyer and ask them if they're even willing to cut it. They will be worried about artifacts, etc., damaging their blades. After that, it's a crap shoot - it could be hollow or rotten inside. If you'd asked me two years ago if that three foot-in-diameter walnut in front of our house was a living legacy and national treasure I would have said yes. But after it snapped like a twig and blew over on its head, even the carpenter ants living inside it realized that leaving only two or so inches of perimeter trunk-tissue untunneled didn't leave much to harvest. ---- Start of Message 59132 (thread 25635) ---- From: Cougarjack@a... Date: 1999-03-07 08:14:00 Subject: Re: how to value a log Dan & list, If the log is not tapered badly, and fairly round, the quick way I do it is to take the cubic volume by conventional means, figure out how many virtual 1 x 12 x it contains in total, then subtract 35% for kerf loss and slab. (circular mill with a 7/32 or 9/32 kerf) ) It comes pretty close, but only works if there's little taper. If anyone wishes a copy of the doyle log rule, it's on the net in several places. Wish I had a scanner! BTW, I have found Doyle to be very pessimistic in yield..I usually get four or five more planks than doyle computes. But then Doyle was meant for timber BUYERS...hehe! FYI: after a while, you get good enough that you go around looking at everything in terms of board feet... Regards, Nick << How do you go about estimating the amount of board feet that you might get out of it? I can easily calculate it's volume but is there a rule of thumb for estimating the amount of waste? >> ---- Start of Message 59227 (thread 25635) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-03-09 13:56:00 Subject: Re: how to value a log Thanks for all the great info everyone. I had assumed that a log rule would help me here but having never seen one it was only a guess. Thanks again Dan ++++ End of thread 25635 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25636 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59097 (thread 25636) ---- From: TURFF49@a... Date: 1999-03-06 14:11:00 Subject: Bio: Brian McInturff Well , I guess I've lurked long enough and figured it was time to do my bio. My name is Brian and I just got remarried in December , My wifes name is Suzanne and I'm 35 years old. I'm a Sample Coordinatorfor The IT Group. I am currently living in Myrtle Beach SC working on the old AirForce Base.IT Group is an Engineering and Environmental firm. Our job is to handle the remedial actions on the base.Enough on the job aspects. My woodworking goes back to as early as I can remember. My father, grandfather, and greatgrandfather were all homebuilders/woodworkers and I guess I had a hammer in my hand since I was 4 or so. The unfortunate thing is they had all passed awayby the time I was 17 including my father. My forte since I was 7 though was refinishing antiques, my uncle had an antique store and taught me how at an early age. By the time I was 15 I was working in some of the best refinishing shops in Knoxville, Tn. Then when I turned 20 went into the army and gave them 11 years of service at which time I got out , opened my own refinishing shop while working another job and did that for about a year . Adivorce caused me to lose the business but since I have met the most wonderful woman in the world. Her father is a woodworker also. I have all of my fathers tools and grandfathers also. I guess some belong to my greatgrandfather also going by the date of some of them. I have recently gotten all of them out and started cleaning them up with the anticipation of using them and bringing back some of my childhood memories of them (since I didn't get to spend the quality time with them that I wished I had).One note that I will say now and do a seperate post on is That the best scraper is a piece of glass. I have stripped many of chairs and chest with nothing more than a piece of glass and was able to retain the original patina of the wood. An old trick of the master conservators. My tools at this point consist of various breast drills, stanley miter box, stanley #2c,#3,#4c,#5,#6,#7c, some varios block planes, (2)#45's with cutters, and the list goes on. The only problem is they were in storage for over 20 years and some lite rusting and maybe a little pitting on just a few items has occurred. this weekend will be my first good chance to start getting them back into proper condition, i.e. electrolysis and scary sharp. Thanks, and look forward to belonging in the "Great Galoot Pool", Brian ++++ End of thread 25636 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25637 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59099 (thread 25637) ---- From: "David Barnett" Date: 1999-03-06 14:59:00 Subject: WTB: tapered 2 1/4" double iron Good steel and a bit of length more important than maker. David Barnett Northampton, MA ++++ End of thread 25637 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25638 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59101 (thread 25638) ---- From: TURFF49@a... Date: 1999-03-06 16:51:00 Subject: FMM I keep seeing FMM mention in alot of postings usually to the text of a lace to purchase oldtools. What is FMM? I'm new to the list so bare with me. Thanks, Brian ---- Start of Message 59103 (thread 25638) ---- From: "David Barnett" Date: 1999-03-06 17:16:00 Subject: Re: FMM Brian, >I keep seeing FMM mention in alot of postings usually to the text of a lace to >purchase oldtools. What is FMM? It stands for Flea Market Monday... which was the first Monday of the month when posting FS (for sale) notices was allowed. Now, however, that's become more relaxed, with FS and WTB (wanted to buy) notices acceptable at any time so long as the poster doesn't overdo it or abuse the privilege. FMM persists, though, as the 'traditional' posting day for many dealers on the list. >I'm new to the list so bare with me. Thanks, Maybe after we know you a little better and the weather warms a bit. David Barnett Northampton, MA ++++ End of thread 25638 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25639 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59105 (thread 25639) ---- From: elschaffer@j... Date: 1999-03-06 17:45:00 Subject: Re: TANSTAAFL? This statement must have been generated in the 1930's or so, when many Taverns in the East and Midwest would provide "lunch" (stuff to eat) as long as the patron drank sufficiently. Of course, the Tavern was making money from the patrons, and they were in reality paying for the Lunch via cost of drinks! TANSTAAFL! --ErvSawwwwwwwwwz ++++ End of thread 25639 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25640 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59106 (thread 25640) ---- From: ecoyle@c... (eric coyle) Date: 1999-03-06 18:25:00 Subject: steve asked//// . If anyone could wax poetic > about what life was like in a foundry in say, New Britain Connecticut, > around the turn of the century it would be most appreciated by at least > me. I often wonder as I futz around my own shop what a woodworker > of yore would do if he was seriously hurt on the job. I wonder if the > boss > gave a damn about his skilled workers and their working environment > or treated them like a commodity. ernie writes.. As a result if you couldn't pull your weight, for whatever reason, you were gone. There were a few key employees who might be carried a bit if they got sick or something but in general most people were readily replaceable, and they were replaced when required. It wasn't that people were especially callous (though they would be considered so by today's standards) they just had to struggle so much to get ahead at all. One of the problems in looking back is that we can see the conditions but we can't feel the attitudes. People were used to the conditions of the time and although they tried to improve them the conditions were generally accepted. When I was "waxing poetic" about my youth it was in no way a complaint. That was the way things were and they got better. It was my job to go to college and improve things for me and my kids. It sure was a different time, both better and worse. ernie fisch ++++ End of thread 25640 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25641 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59108 (thread 25641) ---- From: "jim morrison" Date: 1999-03-06 20:51:00 Subject: to much chatter GG's: I need some advice on a spokeshave. I own a Harris tool spoke shave. It is a beautiful tool, nice finish etc. My problem is that when I use it on anything harder then pine it chatters unbelievably. I manage to stop some of the chatter and get better performance when I put my thumbs on the back of the iron itself. The blade is SS and is pretty thick. I have The Shave Man Treatise on how to hold use a shave. Does anyone else have one of these with a similar problem? Jim ---- Start of Message 59112 (thread 25641) ---- From: David Sutton Date: 1999-03-06 15:43:00 Subject: Re: to much chatter >I need some advice on a spokeshave. I own a Harris tool spoke shave. It is a >beautiful tool, nice finish etc. My problem is that when I use it on >anything harder then pine it chatters unbelievably. I manage to stop some of All I can think to suggest is that you back the iron off a bit on the harder woods, take a tiny shaving. David ********** David Sutton Sutton Studios P.O. Box 1558 Evanston, IL 60204 847-328-0346 Suttons@e... http://www.suttonstudios.com ++++ End of thread 25641 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25642 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59109 (thread 25642) ---- From: snoe749@i... Date: 1999-03-06 20:27:00 Subject: re: Sociological observations /was Re: > > Our hobbies, diversions, expectations and general life-style are so > radically different than even 50 years ago, that it makes ya wonder where > your kids are gonna be in another 50 > > Cowtown Eric > who apologizes for sounding sociological. Yep, My Dad died 5 years ago, at the age of 87 - he was the second youngest of thirteen children, and the only one to go to college, much less graduate. _His_ take was "why are you trying to 'rediscover' what I spent my whole life trying to move away from?" Steve Noe, in Indianapolis snoe749@i... ---- Start of Message 59172 (thread 25642) ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1999-03-08 17:45:00 Subject: Re: Sociological observations /was Re: snoe749@i... wrote: > > Eric wrote: > > > > Our hobbies, diversions, expectations and general life-style are so > > radically different than even 50 years ago, that it makes ya wonder where > > your kids are gonna be in another 50> > > My Dad died 5 years ago, at the age of 87 - he was the second youngest > of thirteen children, and the only one to go to college, much less > graduate. _His_ take was "why are you trying to 'rediscover' what I > spent my whole life trying to move away from?" This is my 70'ish mom's reaction to my hand tool obsession. Her dad was a carpenter and would have uses whatever technology was available. I suspect my dad would have had a similar reaction, even though he knew some of the advantages they offer. How do you explain it? Ed ---- Start of Message 59179 (thread 25642) ---- From: MisterMatt@a... Date: 1999-03-08 19:35:00 Subject: Re: Sociological observations /was Re: Gentle Ones, ed.bell@c... writes: > Her dad was a carpenter and would have uses > whatever technology was available. > How do you explain it? ""SOMEWHAT LONG"" Back in that age, all things technological were revered as being better then existing methods. There was a certain awe folks had for the newfangled concept of having electricity in the home and at the job and being able to "harness" it for laborious tasks. Productivity was the most important issue (let's all thank Frederick Taylor and scientific management for the minions of stopwatch carrying industrial engineers who told us exactly how long it should take to do everything right down to turning a slotted screw 7.24 rotations to seat it in a fixture). But I digress. We have a much more romanticized view of our tools. Except for the few of us that make a living using them, most of us just enjoy their simpler, quieter demeanor vs. the screaming sons of electrickery. We appreciate taking our time finishing projects, and understand that our hand tools do a more accurate, complete job. For many, our tools were passed down from working fathers and grandfathers, so there is a visceral and emotional connection to using them that builds our connection to our past. However, if production was the goal, we wouldn't be sitting here having this discussion. We'd all have the jigs and fixtures that are so prevalent in power tool shops everywhere. We can in a way, draw the connection between our forebears enthusiasm for powered goods and technological advances to our modern infatuation with computers and e-mail. If someone 40 or so years ago asked around to see if someone would have an interest in setting up a "pen- pal" discussion group, there would have been few takers, the response would be very slow and not as exciting as we now have it. Even 10 years ago, if someone offered to do the same thing, but with faxes, the interest would have been thin. So we can't look upon the old interest in things technological with too jaundiced an eye, as we are participating in the same exact thing. That's all I had - sorry for the long and likely boring spew. Matt Glass - NYCity Galoot ++++ End of thread 25642 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25643 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59110 (thread 25643) ---- From: "Michael" Date: 1999-03-06 21:09:00 Subject: You'll soon be able to see for yourselves, Friends. I have in front of me a cutting from todays paper which reports that marine archaeologists are pretty sure that they have located the sunken remains of Capt. Cook's ship the Endeavour lying in thick mud at the bottom of Newport Harbour, Rhode Island. This was the ship in which Capt. Cook discovered Australia and New Zealand in 1768-71, which means that it must have been constructed in the early 1760s, which falls nicely within the period of ship construction as I described recently, so what is recovered should validate my description. And when it is put on display you will have the opportunity to see for yourselves the way the hull was constructed. If, and when, they do decide to raise the Endeavour they will be confronted with exactly the same problems which confronted Margaret Rule and her team when they came to raise, and then conserve, the Mary Rose. In all probability this report will be the last I read about this discovery in my paper so would be interested in any follow-up reported in your papers. Mike Field. ++++ End of thread 25643 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25644 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59111 (thread 25644) ---- From: Adam Whiteson Date: 1999-03-06 22:17:00 Subject: Re: A really old tool - Australopithecus Galooticus Early Australopithecus Galooticus boasted that he could do any woodworking job with obsidian tools in less time than would take a Neanderthal to adjust his metal plane. Our toolcam now takes you to Og & Mog Wudwerks where Og is building a frame and panel display case to show off his stone axes at the next Mammoth Hunters Meeting (Neanderthals are not invited). To cut a groove for a panel he is carefully peeling away thin strips of wood with a narrow flint chisel. Og: Neanderthal use special plane for this. Mog: Neanderthal is girly man. Mog makes fussy hand motions as if adjusting a #45. He accompanies these with mincing, effeminate hip movements. Og: Haw haw haw haw! Mog: Har har har! Both hominids collapse in helpless laughter banging their foreheads with their fists (an Australo gesture that shows appreciation for a witty remark). Tune in next week when Og test assembles his frame and panel case and discovers that he has cut all the grooves on the outsides of the the frame. Adam (tool using hominid) At 02:41 PM 3/6/99 -0800, Jim Nelson wrote: >At 08:19 AM 3/6/99 -0500, Joe Hurray wrote: >>>At 10:40 PM 3/3/99 -0500, Paul Pedersen wrote: >>> >>>The following is claimed to be 400,000 years old: >>>wondering how a tool this old could be dated, >> >>You are all overlooking the obvious here: It was found "new in original >>box", with manufacturer's label intact. This label provided the >>manufacturer's name, address, and date. When it was dug up, the >>archeologist only had a brief time to read the label before the box >>disintegrated, having been exposed to air and light for the first time >>in 400,000 years. > >Even better are the old tools found buried with the manufacturer. > ++++ End of thread 25644 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25645 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59113 (thread 25645) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-03-06 22:01:00 Subject: FS : Spokeshave Kits (and looking for someone ;-) First off, there was a Canadian Gallot that was waiting for a Cherry Spokeshave. Could that person please contact me, off list. Okay, now for some bad news... I just finished doing last years books and it was not pretty. As a result, I'm going to have to sit down and do some _serious_ number crunching to project the price for this year. For the good news, I have 12 kits reamaining from last years inventory. These are going for the old price of $35.00 delivered. For more details see: http://people.ne.mediaone.net/spokeshave/TEACHSHAVE.HTM Once these are gone, the price will, sadly, be going up. ---- Start of Message 59114 (thread 25645) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-03-06 22:08:00 Subject: Re: FS : Spokeshave Kits (and looking for someone ;-) I forgot something else.. It is not often you see a purveyor of goods promote his "competitor" but I REALLY want you folks to take a look at the offerings from my original Teacher, Dave Wachnicki. His web-page is at: http://www.ncworkshops.com/ ++++ End of thread 25645 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25646 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59116 (thread 25646) ---- From: elschaffer@j... Date: 1999-03-06 22:23:00 Subject: Re: Captain Cook's Ship Sounds like a job coming up to polyethylene glycol stabilize the wooden remains ! I'll watch for more about the find! Thanks for the alert! --ErvSawwwwwwwz ++++ End of thread 25646 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25647 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59117 (thread 25647) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-03-06 23:10:00 Subject: Tom wrote: "Whether paternalistic or harsh, the hours were long and the work was hard, usually requiring physical exertion along with maintaining mental acuity to do the job to standards and avoid getting hurt. And a lot of our ancestors and predecessors risked a lot to change things. In the US, the first half of the 19th century saw sporadically successful campaigns focused on changing customary "dawn to dusk" or 12-hour work schedules to 10-hour days, 6 days a week. I quote from an Encyclopedia Britannica I always keep at my side (1954 edition, vol. 11, p. 804, article on "Hours of Labor" --very interesting reading ;-): " I don't see how this is so tough? Actually, the hours don't sound any worse than mine before I retired two years ago. As a Civil Servant, working for the USG, even at an exaulted "grade" level" I was still an "hourly" wage earner. I was paid by the hour (well every thing was based on 7.5 minutes of the 15 minute quarter hour), given leave by the hour, etc. My day began 5 days a week at 6AM and ended 5 days a week at 6:30 - 7PM (with an hour communte each way). I often took work home and completed it in the evening hours. If I spent from 6AM to 7PM working in my downtown office, but took an hour to visit a doctor, I was "docked" one hour of leave. Being "exempt" from the Fair Labor Standards Act, I was never compensated for the extra hours. Frequently, I reviewed or wrote proposals on the weekend. Most days, I had no time for any lunch except at my desk. My SWMBO regularly puts in the same hours now, so does my hoodilum daughter and her husband. So, what is so "harsh" about the "old days"???? And, no, I wasn't sedentary at my desk. Our headquarters where I worked is 3 city blocks long, one wide and has miles of corridors. In my younger days, my Sundays in the mountains, hiking were less strenuous! Karl - fyi, did you know that prior to WW-II, the standard Government workweek was 32 hours in 6 days? ++++ End of thread 25647 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25648 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59118 (thread 25648) ---- From: Walt Lane Date: 1999-03-07 00:11:00 Subject: ATTN: CARL MURPHY (Here we go again) Sorry to waste your time...can't seem to get thru any other way. ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to ns1.nemaine.com.: >>> MAIL From: SIZE=812 <<< 501 unacceptable mail address 501 ... Data format error Hi Carl, Do you still have this one???? 5. Consolidated Tool Works block plane(it's a sargent #208) 70% finish, a couple spots of paint, blade long, will make a good user. Good. $15.00 If so, send it my way. Thanks. Walt Lane **=**=**=**=**=**=**=**=**=**=**=**=**=**=** Walt Lane Member: EAIA, M-WTCA, WNYTCA 3 Pewter Lane {Galoot - Maroon Cap} Johnstown, NY 12095 (518-762-8259) ++++ End of thread 25648 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25649 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59119 (thread 25649) ---- From: "DuPrie, James" Date: 1999-03-07 01:07:00 Subject: David williams... Please ping me... Gotta talk... --JD >-----Original Message----- >From: Brian L. Pennington [SMTP:blpenn@f...] >Sent: Saturday, March 06, 1999 4:57 AM >To: indrigo@s...; oldtools@l... >Subject: Re: how to value a log > >Dan Indrigo asks how to calculate board feet yield for a log. > >I suspose the Galoot answer would be to use a log rule. >Measure across the small end diameter of the log with the >reading taken within the bark. Estimate the length and >read the BF off the rule. > >Not having a log rule you could fall back on Doyle's formula: > >BF = (Diameter-4)Squared times Length/16 > >Diameter in inches >Length in feet > >Not the most accurate for scaling smaller logs with an error >approaching 50% for a log 10 inches in diameter. However it was >the most extensively used scale probably due to the advantage it >gave the buyer especially for smaller diameter logs. Scribner's >scale is considered fairly accurate for logs 16 feet or less in >length and 28 inches in diameter but slightly favors the buyer >for logs larger than this according to Philip Stanley. > >A quick comparison from a table in a Lufkin reprint for a 16 foot log >17 inches in diameter: > >Doyle's Scale : 169 BF >Scribner's Scale : 185 BF > >Brief history of the scales for anyone who is still reading or cares >extracted from Philip Stanley's Boxwood and Ivory: > >The Doyle scale was published in 1825. The Scribner rule used a diagram >method to determine the BF and was developed in 1846 by J.M. Scribner, >a country clergyman. Diagram method is just like it sounds. Draw a >diagram on a circle based on sawing patterns with allowance made for >kerfs and shrinkage. Good potential for accuracy so long as assumptions >used mirrored real conditions. > >Doyle's rule was replaced by the more accurate Scribner rule which went >out of print in the 1850's. However, in 1876 a publisher who had >purchased the rights to Scribner's and well as Doyle's guide books decided >to reissue Scribner's book. For some reason when he re-released >"Scribner's Lumber and Log Book" he substituted Doyle's tables with minor >revisions for Scribners. This scale was now know as "Doyle's Revised", >"New Scribner" and "New" and was in common use for some time after. > >Sounds like perhaps an intentional misinformation plan created for the >benefit of the sawmills based on the advantage Doyle gave to the log buyer. > >Best, >Brian Pennington >Manhattan, KS > > > > > > >> > >-- > ++++ End of thread 25649 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25650 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59120 (thread 25650) ---- From: tom thornton Date: 1999-03-07 04:25:00 Subject: Pen knife find If you think pen knives are not old tools tell me how the carpenter sharpened his pencils on the job. I recently opened a old box and found two pen knives from my folks One plain sort of bone handle marked 'Imperial Stainless' and a crown, both blades ok and cleaned up fine. Other marked 'Geroge Wostenholm' I-XL at base of blades. The nailcleaner and small dble pointed blade are ok but the 3rd blade is broken off at the root. This case seems to be gold material, (wasn't green just dull) but polished fine. very ornate engraving on both sides. Reminds me of what hung on the watch chain in front of the vest way back in the 30's. Are they collectable or just nice to have... ??-- Tom Thornton, Collector of old tools, specializing in hand cranked grindstones Cincinnati #3, F&AM, Morristown, New Jersey, USA ---- Start of Message 59123 (thread 25650) ---- From: Tony Blanks Date: 1999-03-07 02:58:00 Subject: Re: Pen knife find Tom, FWIW, Wostenholme was (is?) a Sheffield UK maker. >Other marked 'Geroge Wostenholm' I-XL at base of blades. > >Are they collectable or just nice to have... ??-- Sorry, don't know about that. Tony B Hobart Tasmania ---- Start of Message 59140 (thread 25650) ---- From: Douglas S Caprette Date: 1999-03-07 19:05:00 Subject: Re: Pen knife find On Sat, 06 Mar 1999 20:25:39 -0800 tom thornton writes: >If you think pen knives are not old tools tell me how the carpenter >sharpened his pencils on the job. > Well, penknives were certainly used to sharpen _quills_ so I daresay they must qualify as OldTools. ---- Start of Message 59156 (thread 25650) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-03-08 07:38:00 Subject: RE: Pen knife find ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of tom ~ thornton ~ Sent: Sunday, March 07, 1999 4:26 AM ~ To: a Tools ~ Subject: Pen knife find ~ Tom Thornton writes: ~ tell me how the carpenter ~ sharpened his pencils on the job. Some would 'ave used their chisels (or axes, or drawknives when not using them for chopping firewood?). I keep an elderly very short 1" chisel, nowadays rather soft, with an 'orrible 'ome-made ash 'andle for this and any other rough and ready jobs, since the graphite left on the backface of a good chisel can transfer to the workpiece. Also, I've found that some 'ard pencils can rapidly take the edge off a chisel. Now there's a thought! 'Owabout using pencil grades as suitable tests for chisel steel 'ardness? A Galoot research project? Jeff, observing haitch-dropping day. ---- Start of Message 59157 (thread 25650) ---- From: John Hunt Date: 1999-03-08 09:30:00 Subject: RE: Pen knife find On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Jeff Gorman wrote: > Also, I've found that some 'ard pencils can rapidly take the edge off > a chisel. I seem to recall that the graphite is mixed with clay in the "'ard pencils". ++++ End of thread 25650 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25651 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59121 (thread 25651) ---- From: Gil Chesbro Date: 1999-03-07 01:47:00 Subject: re: Sociological observations GG's, Speaking of attitudes towards manual labor, I've spent much of adult li fe in the company of academics, many of whom cultivated a profound ingnorance of all things mechanical. This mostly amused me, though I occassionaly found it annoying. One of my best buddies was Benny, a professor of English--specailized in the Victorian period--whom I met in graduate school. We used to get together at his place on Friday nights to drink and play English/Celtic folk songs--Benny was a fiddler. Anyway, Benny was no snob: in fact, he was from a blue-collar family in Detroit, where his father worked for Ford. He was a mechanical genuis, I later learned, who helped maintain the line. But his professor son could just manage changing a fuse. While helping him, once, with some routine task around his house, I finally broke down and asked him, "Didn't your father teach you this?" I was astounded by his answer: "Hell no! My father earned a good livin g. Anything that needed doing around the house, he hired done. It was a matter of pride with him: only the poor worked on their own homes. Besides, why should he begrudge the carpenter or the electrician a few dollars? Those guys had families to support too." Only later in life did I learn that this attitude was not uncommon, especially among immigrant families. Poor Benny, dead and gone now for too many years. He would have had no truck with the romanticization of labor. - Gil, still in Michigan ++++ End of thread 25651 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25652 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59124 (thread 25652) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-03-07 03:23:00 Subject: Re: Pen knife find/more question Tom, Lookout now. You are standing at the edge of a cliff. Wosenholm is an old and good English name in cutlery. If only the main blade hadn't been broken............. Here's another question.I have a Disston pocketknife. The aluminum handle has 1840 1940. The main blade is marked only Disston steel. Are there a lot of these around? Thanks , Scott ++++ End of thread 25652 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25653 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59125 (thread 25653) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-03-07 03:24:00 Subject: We boiled 'em Gentle Listners, Well, you know how I'm always trying to get folks to just haul off and boil their small pieces of green wood. It's so simple. Plunk it down in a pot, simmer. Anyway, A friend of mine probably got a little into the spirit of the evening and with his sister in the room no less and one thing led ot another and before you know it:........ He made his sister a bedframe out of local fir poles, cut green. I must confess I hadn't ever done anything as big as a 4 foot pole. We didn't have anything to boil it in. We ended up cutting the tank of an old hot water heater in half, longways. Propped one half of the tank on some jack stands (the big ones). With a minimum of cutting and welding the other half of the tank went on top. Now we had a fire pit just under the tank. The filled up the tank with water. Unceremoniously plunked a couple poles (peeled) into the "tub" Next we dumped a bag of charcoal briquettes into the base and piled on some firewood too. The first fire was going out about the time the water was getting really hot. From then on it was just, drop by every once in awhile and stoke the fire. Didn't need a lot of wood from then on either, a few pieces at a time. I'd roll the poles sometimes, I don't know why. We boiled them about 5 hours (they were probably 6" diameter). Once it was going, it was pretty effortless. The results? So far, not even a start of a split, noplace. I don't know if you've ever tried to just harvest a bunch of green poles and make anything out of them, but I have done plenty. It's what we got laying around here.Always plenty of them. There they are, wood. And it's already round. And it's just the most natural thing in the world to want to use them just like they are. But they crack. They always crack. Just what you didn't have in mind. Oh they're fine for a cabin, or a pole frame for a chicken coop or woodshed. Perfect for that. But you can rely on some cracking. It's life. I'm now having delisions of grandeur seeing full logs going into the drink and wondering how I can secure a cheap heat source. Wellllllll I wonder who else boiled their wood? Had to be some peoples or tribes who boiled green wood. It's so primitive somehow. And it works. So anyway, the sister was pleased. Next time, hardwood! yours Scott ---- Start of Message 59176 (thread 25653) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1999-03-08 18:20:00 Subject: Re: We boiled 'em Scott Grandstaff urged: > Well, you know how I'm always trying to get folks to just haul off >and boil their small pieces of green wood. It's so simple. Plunk it >down in a pot, simmer. [snip of description of boiling larger pieces] and mused: > I wonder who else boiled their wood? Had to be some peoples or tribes >who boiled green wood. It's so primitive somehow. And it works. > So anyway, the sister was pleased. > Next time, hardwood! Can't speak for primitive tribes. However, I've run across the following information in Paul Haslucks's _Carpentry and Joinery_, London: Cassell and Company, Ltd., 1912: ************* "Artificially Seasoning Timber Small Stuff A method sometimes adopted for seasoning small pieces of timber, especially for tool making, and other purposes, is possible wherever a supply of steam - from the boiler or exhaust of a steam engine - is available. The pieces of wood are stacked in a steam chest ... or a barrel ... and allowed to become thoroughly saturated with steam. This will take from two to twelve hours, according to the kind and thickness of the wood. No pressure is required, but the door of the chest or top of the barrel should be closed with a lid; the fitting is not close, allowing the steam which has circulated round the wood to escape. For this reason the apparatus is kept outside a building. The material being treated is kept from the bottom proper to allow the steam to become evenly distributed, because by it the natural colours of many woods are more or less changed, especially in the case of beech, the colour of which is changed from a dull white to the familiar reddish tint. After it is taken out the wood is piled under cover in the ordinary manner and allowed to dry; this, in small thin material, usually takes three weeks or a month. The drying time might be considerably shortened by utilising the space above the boiler as a drying loft. A temperature of 120 d. F. to 180 d. F. (obtainable above most boilers) would get the drying over in a day or two, but the material should not be transferred to such a position direct from the steam-box, let it have a few days' ordinary drying first. ..." **************** While this isn't exactly boiling, I suspect the operative principles are pretty much the same. While it doesn't explicitly state that fresh sawn material was thus treated, I think such can be safely inferred. Also, if for "tool making," it's suggestive of having been used for hardwoods. On a related note, on the previous page Hasluck discusses "Erith's Patent Automatic Timber Drier." This was a commercial dry kiln process in which the timber was loaded on "trucks" which then moved through the chamber via rails. Sorry for the length of this desciption: ***************** " ... This system dries wood by the circulation of warm but very moist air. ... The apparatus consists of specially arranged steam radiator coils, in which exhaust or live steam may be used; they are placed beneath the rails near the discharging end of the building. Air flows under the radiator coils, and rises, at the same time travelling through the stacks of wood, thus gradually drawing moisture from it. As the air becomes more laden with moisture it sinks between the rails and flows towards the loading end, where it is allowed to escape. ... The timber is dried from the centre outwards, the surfaces finishing last; therefore case-hardening, splitting, warping and other injuries are prevented. By this system it is claimed that the timber which would require a year to dry in the open can be dried in a week; this, of course, is a great advantage." ****************** While I might quibble with one bit of the above description and I'm guessing the claim as to a week's drying time might be a bit optimistic, this strikes me as not too far removed from Scott's "just boil it" dictum. I have yet to try any of this, but must admit that its' intriguing. Not quite sure why, except for the fact that the use of moisture, albeit heated, to dry timber seems so counter-intuitive. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio Can you tell I'm home with a sick daugher? ;-) ---- Start of Message 59178 (thread 25653) ---- From: "Rick Garza" Date: 1999-03-08 18:35:00 Subject: Re: We boiled 'em Don says: >quite sure why, except for the fact that the use of moisture, albeit >heated, to dry timber seems so counter-intuitive. What about drying flitches in a freezer? William H. Brown's The Conversion and Seasoning of Wood is a great little book that goes into so many different methods. I checked it out of the public library.... Rick Garza ---- Start of Message 59181 (thread 25653) ---- From: "HALL, HAYWARD" Date: 1999-03-08 20:01:00 Subject: RE: We boiled 'em > Ha, I knew I had been saving that old hot water heater for a year for > something... :) > I'd be curious to know why this works, the nitty gritty techno-babble of > it all if any one knows. > > Hayward Hall Springfield MO > -----Original Message----- > From: scott grandstaff [SMTP:scottg@s...] > Sent: Saturday, March 06, 1999 9:25 PM > To: oldtools@l... > Subject: We boiled 'em > > Gentle Listners, > Well, you know how I'm always trying to get folks to just haul off > and boil their small pieces of green wood. It's so simple. Plunk it > down in a pot, simmer. > > ---- Start of Message 59219 (thread 25653) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-03-09 10:57:00 Subject: RE: We boiled 'em ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Don ~ McConnell ~ Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 6:20 PM ~ To: oldtools@l... ~ Cc: scottg@s... ~ Subject: Re: We boiled 'em ~ ~ No pressure is required, but the door of the chest or top ~ of the barrel ~ should be closed with a lid; the fitting is not close, ~ allowing the steam ~ which has circulated round the wood to escape. For this reason the ~ apparatus is kept outside a building. One good reason for this is that otherwise your tools will rust! Jeff ---- Start of Message 59224 (thread 25653) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-03-09 13:16:00 Subject: Re: We boiled 'em The reason it works. OK, you got your green wood. It's like a sponge. Solid cells filled with liquid. When the end grain is opened up and exposed to dry air (crosscut) the liquid in the nearby cells evaporates real quick. This collapses the cells. The cells further inside are still full of liquid. Without a capillary system to keep the cells alive, they expire, starting to collapse themselves. Only the water now has no place to go because the outside cells are collapsed. Pressure builds and crrrack! With steam (or hot water) you are holding the outside cells open with a saturated enviornment while you heat the whole piece. The water turns to steam, only now you have the outside cells wide open and out comes the steam. The whole structure collapses roughly at the same time. That's what I understand anyway. yours Scott * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, 63742 Applegate Dr., Happy Camp, CA 96039 * scottg@s... PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/ ---- Start of Message 59225 (thread 25653) ---- From: Allan Fisher Date: 1999-03-09 13:45:00 Subject: Re: We boiled 'em At 05:16 AM 3/9/99 -0800, scott grandstaff wrote: > The reason it works. [drying wood cracks because water in the cells can't escape under pressure; steam keeps the escape route open.] This explains why steam helps to season wood rapidly without cracking it, but doesn't explain why a boiled log, containing the pith, won't crack. My understanding (based on Hoadley and on general fooling around) is that the main reason logs crack is that circumferential shrinkage is greater than radial shrinkage; as the circumference shrinks, the inside shrinks more slowly, so the circumference has to separate. I'm sure this much is true, since if you split a green log down the middle and let it dry forever (more or less) you end up with two wedges with angles of less than 180 degrees. So why do steamed/boiled logs not split (or at least split less?) Does the heat make the inside more compressible, or the outside more stretchable? Or both? Other theories? ---- Start of Message 59228 (thread 25653) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1999-03-09 14:01:00 Subject: Re: We boiled 'em Regarding boiling/steaming of wood to accelerate drying, Hayward Hall had asked: >> I'd be curious to know why this works, the nitty gritty >> techno-babble of it all if any one knows. Scott Grandstaff replied: >With steam (or hot water) you are holding the outside cells open >with a saturated enviornment while you heat the whole piece. The >water turns to steam, only now you have the outside cells wide >open and out comes the steam. Scott's response came in while I was checking to see if I had any material on this topic. What I found seems to be consistent with Scott's comments, but I'm following up since the material I found also has a bit of additional info which might be useful to anyone wanting to try this. In _Drying Eastern Hardwood Lumber_ by McMillen and Wengert (Agricultural Handbook No. 528, September 1978) is a chapter on "Special Predrying Treatments" which begins with "Steaming." In part, it says: "In another study with 1-inch-thick oak, Simpson (1976a) found that the moisture gradients, during drying after steaming 4 hours at 212 d. F, were smooth curves. The natural moisture gradients of the unsteamed controls had inflections that indicated free water movement was restricted. Simpson's work showed that free water migration from the center toward the surface was enhanced by steaming." For those interested in hard numbers, Simpson also did some research on small specimens to determine the change in drying rates: "... The drying rate at 50 percent moisture content for these small specimens increased 34 to 75 percent for the [northern red and cherrybark] oaks and 11 to 36 percent for sweetgum heartwood. Steaming times were in the range of 1/2 to 5 hours. ..." Now for the bit of additional info which might be useful. Again, research done by Simpson: " ... No defects occurred in the green lumber nor in one batch of the partly air-dried material. The other partly air-dried batch, however, had been severely surface checked during air drying. The steaming appeared to deepen the surface checks and change them into bottleneck or honeycomb checks. ..." This clearly suggests that it is safer (and probably more effective, in terms of speeding up total drying time) to steam/boil freshly sawn timber -- especially those which, like the oaks, which are prone to surface checking during drying. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 59230 (thread 25653) ---- From: Daniel Indrigo Date: 1999-03-09 14:08:00 Subject: Re: We boiled 'em >From the "book of trades" in the chapter on carpenters "The seasoning of timber consists in the extraction or evaporation of the fluid parts, which are liable to decomposition on the cessation of the growth of the tree. This is usually effected by the steeping of the green timber in water, to dilute and wash out the sap as much as possible, and then drying it thoroughly by exposure to the air in an airy situation" Now he's says they remove the sap to prevent rot but I think what may be the real reason is that maybe by replacing the sap with water you will get a more uniform drying. I'm guessing that the drying sap will gum up the capillaries so the water in the middle has a harder time working it's way out. If there is pretty much just water and little sap then the fluids will just continue to flow out and not block the exits as it drys. This is the problem you get with christmas trees, you have to make a fresh cut if you want the tree to suck up water because the sap has gummed up the entrance. Steaming or boiling should be even more effective since the sap should more easily dissolve in hot water. Dan ---- Start of Message 59269 (thread 25653) ---- From: "Flowers, Curt" Date: 1999-03-10 19:36:00 Subject: RE: We boiled 'em Does the concept below, which has been backed up by subsequent posts ,also apply to the 50+ year old logs now being "harvested" from the bottoms of rivers and lakes? In other words, do these re-harvested logs dry with less checking because they've been underwater for so long? It would be another reason the wood from these logs is very expensive. -Curt Flowers, central Illinois --------------------------------------------------------------- > The reason it works. > OK, you got your green wood. It's like a sponge. Solid cells filled with > liquid. > When the end grain is opened up and exposed to dry air (crosscut) the > liquid > in the nearby cells evaporates real quick. This collapses the cells. The > cells > further inside are still full of liquid. Without a capillary system to > keep the > cells alive, they expire, starting to collapse themselves. Only the water > now > has no place to go because the outside cells are collapsed. Pressure > builds and > crrrack! > With steam (or hot water) you are holding the outside cells open with a > saturated enviornment while you heat the whole piece. The water turns to > steam, > only now you have the outside cells wide open and out comes the steam. The > whole structure collapses roughly at the same time. > That's what I understand anyway. > yours > Scott ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ ---- Start of Message 59292 (thread 25653) ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 1999-03-10 21:45:00 Subject: RE: We boiled 'em ~ -----Original Message----- ~ From: owner-oldtools@l... ~ [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Flowers, ~ Curt ~ Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 7:36 PM ~ To: oldtools@l... ~ Subject: RE: We boiled 'em ~ ~ ~ Does the concept below, which has been backed up by ~ subsequent posts ,also ~ apply to the 50+ year old logs now being "harvested" from ~ the bottoms of ~ rivers and lakes? In other words, do these re-harvested logs ~ dry with less ~ checking because they've been underwater for so long? I don't know about totally immersed logs, but I was given some oak that had been in an English bog for well over 100 years at least (I was told it had been there since the ice age, but this has been doubted). Anyway, it warped like billy-oh when dried. Nice black colour almost though and through and as hard a heck. Jeff ++++ End of thread 25653 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25654 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59126 (thread 25654) ---- From: "Jeff" Date: 1999-03-07 03:55:00 Subject: A BIG THANKS TO PHIL... As a few of you might know, Phil was offering an Osage Orange mallet to the winner of his freebee gloat thread. I had the good fortune of being the winner. A few days after hearing from Phil a package shows up to my door. I get a call from my wife, who described the package as galootish looking. EXCITMENT!!! My first thought is that it's my long lost galootaclaus present but on arrival at home I see it's from Phil Koontz! Packed lovingly inside are not one but TWO mallets! Both are magnificent! One a dark purpley brown and the other a pale golden orange. Both large and dense feeling- my God the weight of these things! The balance on them is perfect. Phil had sent an extra because he was worried about a crack on the dark one. Yeah right, if I use this thing to remove the wheel studs on my neighbours half ton I might worry about it! Since receiving them I've done my first carving in years, the mallets feel like they were made for these big mitt o' mine. A truly, truly wonderful thing. Thanks so much Phil. Rgds, Jeff from Wpg ++++ End of thread 25654 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25655 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59127 (thread 25655) ---- From: "Jeff" Date: 1999-03-07 03:57:00 Subject: Looking for a MF Drill Guru Hi galoots, Was driving with da boyz (GITs 4&2) to get groceries when Taylor (GIT#1) yells "DADDY, A GARAGE SALE!!!!". Let me tell you that Nissan Quests have excellent stopping ability (or it might have been that I had it in reverse before it had stopped going forward). You see, up here in the tool tundra, garage sales in spring are about as rare as a $5 #1. Of course we had to stop in. It was held in the old gentleman's basement and Taylor made a beeline for the tool table. This boy has garage saling in his blood and has it seems an affinity to MF drills. Last year he scored a MF 2A in nice shape for 50 cents (at 3 yrs old he beat the guy down from $3. This time he hauls up a MF #118. Not a rust bucket either! Has it tagged for $5. End up getting a big honking coping saw with a bunch of blades, a no name brass backed backsaw with a very fancy (and old) handle-(a three nutter no less) and the drill all for the aforementioned $5. I must mention at this point that there was no physical coercion involved. The drill itself has about 80-90% Japanning left and almost no rust or corrosion. The chuck is plated and the handles still have most of their varnish. The level vial is intact. The action seems to be OK but I can 'feel' the movement of the bearings. Now to my need for a person of MF wisdom. Starting from the back: The chest plate has a fair bit of "slop". Is this there intentionally? It would make sense... The drill has a removable drive gear and handle assembly so that it can be moved between two holes in the frame. The forward hole gives it a 1:1 ratio for torque; while the rear hole is about about 3:1 for speed. While it is in "speed mode' the rear of the drive gear is supported by what look to be a ball bearing in a steel rod which is pressed into the frame of the drill. Is this ball bearing supposed to move? The one on mine is frozen and before I try to unfreeze it I think I had better find out! Lastly, There is a inset screw at the front of the frame, opposite the handle and between the two knurled collars at the base of the chuck and the base of the head gear. I originally thought that it could be a place for a threaded grease nipple, but that would be pointless as there is an oil hole on the opposite side. What is this for? Also, if anyone has general info as to when was the 118 made and of course if it has value... Better still- anyone know of a galoot with an MF drills WebPage? Thanks guys! Jeff from Wpg BTW- Just a warning to galoots who thinks SWMBO doesn't pay attention to galoot stuff. My wife, who actively dislikes tools said to me of my MF drills " So if two is a collection, I guess the next one is the obsession" YEEGODS SHE'S QUOTING A GALOOT!!! Be afraid, be very afraid... ---- Start of Message 59136 (thread 25655) ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 1999-03-07 13:54:00 Subject: Re: Looking for a MF Drill Guru Galoots, Regarding his SWMBO, Jeff wrote: "YEEGODS SHE'S QUOTING A GALOOT!!!" an d was worried she was paying attention to us and his tools. IMHO, you can rest assured that anything - all things - that enter your domicile are noted or quickly found and are classed or cataloged by your SWMBO. It may be your castle, but it is her house! Because she says nothing doesn't mean she doesn't know what is in the shop. I would suggest that how quiet she is about what is in the shop is inversely proportional to how much attention she is paying. More importantly, I suggest it is critical to not underestimate the SWM BO. While it is possible that she is paying attention to the chatter on this list, I doubt it. It is more likely that our SWMBOs are far more learned or read than we give credit. The quote "One is an interest, two is a collection and three is an obsession" is not an original Galoot quote. It has existed in literature for eons. My SWMBO frequently uses these and other wise words of the ancients to give fair warning! Maybe Jeff has been warned? I see two options. First, I suggest a "trading" party with her. Maybe some blankets and beads. Second, how about making two nice white oak, dovetailed serving tray for herself and her mom? Karl ---- Start of Message 59142 (thread 25655) ---- From: "Bill Taggart" Date: 1999-03-07 22:28:00 Subject: SWMBO attention, WAS Re: Looking for a MF Drill Guru -----Original Message----- From: Karl W. Sanger >Galoots, > Regarding his SWMBO, Jeff wrote: "YEEGODS SHE'S QUOTING A GALOOT!!!" and >was worried she was paying attention to us and his tools. > IMHO, you can rest assured that anything - all things - that enter your >domicile are noted or quickly found and are classed or cataloged by your >SWMBO. It may be your castle, but it is her house! Because she says >nothing doesn't mean she doesn't know what is in the shop. Mine doesn't fully know what's in the shop, and really doesn't care to know.... however, I made the classic mistake yesterday - she stuck her head around the corner of my shop just as I was pulling open drawer in which five smooth planes are lined up neatly in a row - it's right next to another drawer in which seven block planes are lined up neatly in a row. Also in the same drawer are two #78s and a #50. She did the "Oh my God! Why do you have so many that are the same?" routine. Of course, my feeble attempts to point out that they were not all truly the same (see, this is a #4, and this is a #3, and this is - well, O.K., this is a #4 too, but it's a type 16, and this other one is a type 11. And this is also a #3, but it's corrugated - see?) were met only with a tight-lipped skeptical-looking face. She has complained of not being able to find a screwdriver, pliers or hammer when I'm not around, which revealed the horrible truth that she had been SKULKING around my shop when I not there!! (Horror!). I have made the suggestion that perhaps she should have her OWN toolbox with her OWN tools in it, which she could keep wherever she likes, and I agreed that I would not be allowed to touch or use them so she would always know where they were. Whew! I think I may be able to pull this off after all.... ...Although if she keeps threatening to use my e-mail account to post a massive FS list of everything in my shop when I'm not home... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ William K. Taggart (Bill) On the road in Orlando, FL ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---- Start of Message 59145 (thread 25655) ---- From: David Sutton Date: 1999-03-07 16:58:00 Subject: Re: SWMBO attention, WAS Re: Looking for a MF Drill Guru > From: "Bill Taggart": > I have made the suggestion that perhaps she >should have her OWN toolbox with her OWN tools in it, which she >could keep wherever she likes, and I agreed that I would not be >allowed to touch or use them so she would always know where they >were. Whew! I think I may be able to pull this off after all.... >..Although if she keeps threatening to use my e-mail account to >post a massive FS list of everything in my shop when I'm not >home... BILL- Even better than a suggestion, go out and assemble a tool box for her, that's what I did. Lynntia was well pleased. Even found an eggbeater for her, she likes it. Now, as for FS lists, if we see a post with your name on it listing for sale " Big planing thingy" and "Little planing thingy" you can be sure most of us will pass on it. Of course, I can't vouch for the whole list . . . if the price is right . . David ********** David Sutton Sutton Studios P.O. Box 1558 Evanston, IL 60204 847-328-0346 Suttons@e... http://www.suttonstudios.com ---------- ---- Start of Message 59150 (thread 25655) ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 1999-03-08 02:25:00 Subject: Re: SWMBO attention, WAS Re: Looking for a MF Drill Guru > . I have made the suggestion that perhaps she > should have her OWN toolbox with her OWN tools in it, Toolbox? What exactly are you keeping in the bottom kitchen drawer now? Been my houshold tools for a decade. Better fill it up, quick! yours Scott > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, 63742 Applegate Dr., Happy Camp, CA 96039 * scottg@s... PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/ ---- Start of Message 59242 (thread 25655) ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 1999-03-09 18:15:00 Subject: Re: Looking for a MF Drill Guru Jeff, Not sure if your questions have been answered yet, but here's my two cents worth on the subject. > Starting from the back: > The chest plate has a fair bit of "slop". Is this >there intentionally? It would make sense... Most of my breast drills have little or no "play" or "slop" in the breast plate. The set screw should hold it in place so it doesn't wobble, in my opinion. ===== > The drill has a removable drive gear and handle >assembly so that it can be moved between two holes in >the frame. The forward hole gives it a 1:1 ratio > for torque; while the rear hole is about about 3:1 >for speed. While it is in "speed mode' the rear of the >drive gear is supported by what look to be a ball >bearing in a steel rod which is pressed into the frame >of the drill. Is this ball bearing supposed to move? >The one on mine is frozen and before I try to unfreeze >it I think I had better find out! Some of my drills have a small disc or wheel here that supports the edge of the gear, some have what looks like a ball but I think is just the head of a small bolt which is supposed to support the gear. And, of courxe, some drills have a second small pinion gear to provide that extra support, and some have nothing at all- no additional support of the large gear. ==== > Lastly, There is a inset screw at the front of the >frame, opposite the handle and between the two knurled >collars at the base of the chuck and the base of the >head gear. I originally thought that it could be a >place for a threaded grease nipple, but that would be >pointless as there is an oil hole on the opposite >side. What is this for? This, I'm not sure about either, think that it might be a set screw to hold things together. ==== > Also, if anyone has general info as to when was the >118 made and of course if it has value... > Better still- anyone know of a galoot with an MF >drills WebPage? I think that a usable breast drill is worth $15. and up, depending on condition and rarity. There is a nice catalog reprint available, ca 1915 I think. I got mine through M-WTCA or EAIA some years ago as a benefit of membership, and I think that it's available through Martin Donnely, Roger Smith, or EAIA. It's the best reference for Millers Falls that I have. Hope that someone out there can answer the other qurstions. > My wife, who actively dislikes tools said to me of my >MF drills " So if two is a collection, I guess the >next one is the obsession" Thankfully, my wife understands my "obsession"- but it's not an obsession until it's 3 of each model and type, right? I get tools or tool books for Christmas and birthdays from her > > == Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 59259 (thread 25655) ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 1999-03-10 15:12:00 Subject: Re: Looking for a MF Drill Guru Jeff had asked: > While it is in "speed mode' the rear of the drive >gear is supported by what look to be a ball bearing in >a steel rod which is pressed into the frame of the >drill. Is this ball bearing supposed to move? The one >on mine is frozen and before I try to unfreeze it I >think I had better find out! Jeff and Galoots, Well,last night I went out to where my tools are in a room upstairs in the barn and looked at some other breast drills. (couldn't get out there the night before because of all the snow we were getting, and then I got called in to work because of leaks caused by the snow). I see that my M-F #12 breast drill has the ball bearing that Jeff mentions, and yes, the ball bearing should turn. I would suggest some penetrating oil and a few gentle taps on the bearing after the oil has a chance to work a bit. Hope this helps. Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI., wondering if 35 breast drills, almost all different, is still just an accumulation of users.) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ++++ End of thread 25655 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25656 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59128 (thread 25656) ---- From: "William H. Fissell" Date: 1999-03-07 03:00:00 Subject: welding a crack in a user's mouth GGs, I have a repainted BTS 62 with chipped mouth. suggestions on it's repair to make an ugly user? Probly needs some welding and a little fillt o a chip. how does one find someone to do this for one? thanks, Bill ++++ End of thread 25656 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25657 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59130 (thread 25657) ---- From: "John Solie" Date: 1999-03-06 14:31:00 Subject: It coulda been worse...Part 1 It coulda been worse...Part 1 Executive summary: Helped an Eagle scout candidate on his project. Got gaggle of teenage boys to cut 4x4s' with a D8. Did a Norm vs. Roy with father of Eagle scout candidate. Longer version: Today was an interesting day. A few months ago, a buddy at work asked me if an Eagle candidate in his troop could get some advice from me on building some benches for folks visiting a local ecological preserve to park their hind ends. Seems that EC (Eagle Candidate) had in mind that benches for sitting were really easy to build. So he goes about his thing collecting the money for the project. Today was the first work day. I'd had EC & his father over one evening to discuss the project. I tried to make it as clear as I could that I preferred to work with hand tools. I took EC & Father out into the cave to do the tool drool. EC wasn't sure what he was seeing. Father was salivating so much, I thought he might need an IV to replenish lost fluids. They went home that evening convinced that I was a master craftsman of the caliber of Mike Dunbar. HAH! Were they in for a shock.... Like I already said, today was the first work day. I loaded up the tools I thought I'd need (crosscut saw, rip saw, couple of back saws, chisels, #3 (Medum smoother, Jeff), #5 (Jack plane, Jeff), MF #18 (Fore plane same size as a #6, Jeff), couple of block planes) and a couple of corded shreiking demons (with some accessories of the one who's common name starts with an R). I get over to their house nice and early (too early for me, but that was their problem ). Had a cup-o-joe to get the brain sorta thinking. One of the teenagers asked "How are we gonna cut the wood? You're not gonna use a handsaw are you? That'll take forever!" So I produced a nice D-8 with a thumbhole, and proceeded to start a kerf on one of the redwood 4x4's. "Hey, that's cutting pretty good!" they replied. I stopped, then had EC finish the cut. Was it square? Heck no. But they were impressed with the rate at which the saw cut the wood. I then explained to them that this saw was probably made before 1920. One said "It should be in a museum!" To which I replied, "Well, then, _you_ won't be able to make the next cut" as I handed him the saw. It amazed them how well a somewhat sharp saw can cut. Now I am not an accomplished crosscutter. I don't have such a problem while ripping, but a straight cross cut is more of the exception than the rule. I know, practice practice practice. It blew me away when one of the kids made a _perfect_ crosscut through the 4x4 on his first time. Beginner's luck? Maybe. We had him cut most of the 4x4's. I was in the garage trying to remember how to use the mortise jig for one of the tailed demons when one of the teenagers came in and said they screwed up one of the cuts. It wasn't even. Not to worry, says I. I then clamp the 4x4 in Father's vise and start fixing the end with my grandfather's #65 low angle block plane armed with a Hock blade. Swish swish swish...problem erased. I even got the boys to do that whilst I continued cogitating & bracing myself for using the tailed demons. The time comes for the boys to go home, and I find myself in Father's garage with EC. Now the bench is gonna be built using some mortises and tenons. Father was planning on cutting the tennons on his Evil TS. (I had fiddled with it earlier, and had a nice kickback (blasted dull steel blade) that sent a section of 2x4 slamming into the garage door. It sure quieted the teenage boys down in a hurry. Didn't get hurt...made sure I stood to the side.) So Father begins trying to cut the tenons. TS screaming. I grabbed a 2x4 and my backsaws and set to work on them. He managed to fill the garage up with smoke (grrr....) and noise (grrr....) while I carefully sawed away on my stack of 2x4's. I kept waiting for that saw to kickback on him again, which would have summoned the EMT's (Emergency Medical Technicians, Jeff). I was thinking that I'd say something snotty like "Well, by the time you get back from the emergency room, I'll have all these tenons cut..." but fortunately he didn't get a kickback. His son was starting to cough from all the swirling sawdust and smoke. And there I was still using the backsaws to cut the tenons. No noise, no smoke, no swirling sawdust. Father's cuts left a small bit of wood to be trimmed, which he set about removing with a square file and vigorous activity. I just clamped the 2x4's in the vice and used a SS skewed chisel to cut across the grain then a 1" SS chisel to clean up the tenon. Even used the 1" chisel to correct the width of a number of tenons, as I didn't want Father to fire up his screaming beast. EC was rather taken by the two approaches, and spent more time examining the quieter way of doing things. Who know, maybe I made a convert today. They're gonna love me on the next work day when I bring a brace and a #8 bit for cutting those 1/2" mortises.... I'm more convinced than ever that this _is_ the _correct_ and _proper_ way to build things. It may not go as fast as killing electrons, but isn't getting there half the fun? Thanks for making it this far. ============================================================= John Solie - jsolie@i... http://www.inland.net/~jsolie ============================================================= ---- Start of Message 59137 (thread 25657) ---- From: Rick Young Date: 1999-03-07 03:10:00 Subject: Re: It coulda been worse...Part 1 John, Excellent job of helping the young men. I have been a part of scouts for years, am very proud to say i am the father of two Eagle Scouts. Anyway i loved the story cause i could just picture the whole thing you were talking about; watching the boys sawing and learning must have been great. I bet you get the eagle dad to maybe switch to old tools also if you work on him.....specially if the eagle scout likes them. Rick At 10:31 PM 3/6/99 +0800, you wrote: >It coulda been worse...Part 1 > >Executive summary: > >Helped an Eagle scout candidate on his project. Got gaggle of >teenage boys to cut 4x4s' with a D8. Did a Norm vs. Roy with father >of Eagle scout candidate. > >Longer version: > >Today was an interesting day. A few months ago, a buddy at work >asked me if an Eagle candidate in his troop could get some advice >from me on building some benches for folks visiting a local >ecological preserve to park their hind ends. Seems that EC (Eagle >Candidate) had in mind that benches for sitting were really easy to >build. So he goes about his thing collecting the money for the >project. Today was the first work day. > >I'd had EC & his father over one evening to discuss the project. I >tried to make it as clear as I could that I preferred to work with >hand tools. I took EC & Father out into the cave to do the tool >drool. EC wasn't sure what he was seeing. Father was salivating so >much, I thought he might need an IV to replenish lost fluids. They >went home that evening convinced that I was a master craftsman of the >caliber of Mike Dunbar. HAH! Were they in for a shock.... > >Like I already said, today was the first work day. I loaded up the >tools I thought I'd need (crosscut saw, rip saw, couple of back saws, >chisels, #3 (Medum smoother, Jeff), #5 (Jack plane, Jeff), MF #18 >(Fore plane same size as a #6, Jeff), couple of block planes) and a >couple of corded shreiking demons (with some accessories of the one >who's common name starts with an R). > >I get over to their house nice and early (too early for me, but that >was their problem ). Had a cup-o-joe to get the brain sorta >thinking. One of the teenagers asked "How are we gonna cut the wood? >You're not gonna use a handsaw are you? That'll take forever!" > So I produced a nice D-8 with a thumbhole, >and proceeded to start a kerf on one of the redwood 4x4's. "Hey, >that's cutting pretty good!" they replied. I stopped, then had EC >finish the cut. Was it square? Heck no. But they were impressed >with the rate at which the saw cut the wood. I then explained to >them that this saw was probably made before 1920. One said "It >should be in a museum!" To which I replied, "Well, then, _you_ won't >be able to make the next cut" as I handed him the saw. It amazed >them how well a somewhat sharp saw can cut. > >Now I am not an accomplished crosscutter. I don't have such a >problem while ripping, but a straight cross cut is more of the >exception than the rule. I know, practice practice practice. It >blew me away when one of the kids made a _perfect_ crosscut through >the 4x4 on his first time. Beginner's luck? Maybe. We had him cut >most of the 4x4's. > >I was in the garage trying to remember how to use the mortise jig for >one of the tailed demons when one of the teenagers came in and said >they screwed up one of the cuts. It wasn't even. Not to worry, says >I. I then clamp the 4x4 in Father's vise and start fixing the end >with my grandfather's #65 low angle block plane armed with a Hock >blade. Swish swish swish...problem erased. I even got the boys to >do that whilst I continued cogitating & bracing myself for using the >tailed demons. > > > >The time comes for the boys to go home, and I find myself in Father's >garage with EC. Now the bench is gonna be built using some mortises >and tenons. Father was planning on cutting the tennons on his Evil >TS. (I had fiddled with it earlier, and had a nice kickback (blasted >dull steel blade) that sent a section of 2x4 slamming into the garage >door. It sure quieted the teenage boys down in a hurry. Didn't get >hurt...made sure I stood to the side.) So Father begins trying to >cut the tenons. TS screaming. I grabbed a 2x4 and my backsaws and >set to work on them. He managed to fill the garage up with smoke >(grrr....) and noise (grrr....) while I carefully sawed away on my >stack of 2x4's. I kept waiting for that saw to kickback on him >again, which would have summoned the EMT's (Emergency Medical >Technicians, Jeff). I was thinking that I'd say something snotty >like "Well, by the time you get back from the emergency room, I'll >have all these tenons cut..." but fortunately he didn't get a >kickback. His son was starting to cough from all the swirling >sawdust and smoke. > >And there I was still using the backsaws to cut the tenons. No >noise, no smoke, no swirling sawdust. > >Father's cuts left a small bit of wood to be trimmed, which he set >about removing with a square file and vigorous activity. I just >clamped the 2x4's in the vice and used a SS skewed chisel to cut >across the grain then a 1" SS chisel to clean up the tenon. Even >used the 1" chisel to correct the width of a number of tenons, as I >didn't want Father to fire up his screaming beast. EC was rather >taken by the two approaches, and spent more time examining the >quieter way of doing things. > >Who know, maybe I made a convert today. They're gonna love me on the >next work day when I bring a brace and a #8 bit for cutting those >1/2" mortises.... > >I'm more convinced than ever that this _is_ the _correct_ and >_proper_ way to build things. It may not go as fast as killing >electrons, but isn't getting there half the fun? > >Thanks for making it this far. > > > >============================================================= >John Solie - jsolie@i... http://www.inland.net/~jsolie >============================================================= > >-- > > ---- Start of Message 59154 (thread 25657) ---- From: "John Solie" Date: 1999-03-07 15:04:00 Subject: Re: It coulda been worse...Part 1 On 6 Mar 99, at 20:10, Rick Young wrote: > Excellent job of helping the young men. I have been a part of scouts for > years, am very proud to say i am the father of two Eagle Scouts. Anyway i > loved the story cause i could just picture the whole thing you were > talking about; watching the boys sawing and learning must have been > great. I bet you get the eagle dad to maybe switch to old tools also if > you work on him.....specially if the eagle scout likes them. It really was neat watching them saw and "adjust" with the block plane. The EC's father did pull out and show me a couple of tools that belonged to his wife's grandfather: #55 (said he had the other parts in a box in the house, and another #55 somewhere else in a box), a #90 (with a small chip in the mouth), a #20 1/2 in good shape, and a #98 & #99. These last three planes held my interest whilst he was cutting tenons and making smoke Perhaps for the work day next Saturday, I might bring my SS supplies along and make sure some of those blades can be used for shaving . . . :-) ============================================================= John Solie - jsolie@i... http://www.inland.net/~jsolie ============================================================= ++++ End of thread 25657 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25658 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59131 (thread 25658) ---- From: "John Solie" Date: 1999-03-06 14:31:00 Subject: AWW Trip Report GG, Short version: Went to AWW show, saw Roy, used his drill, watched a few demos, met a Galoot and went home practically emptyhanded. Longer version: I went to the American Woodworker show in Ontario, CA yesterday. Had SWMBO & SWMBETTE with me as well. Since we HS, this was a fairly educational field trip! After getting there & getting tickets, we entered the mayhem. The first thing we saw when entering was Roy building a small house. He hadn't gotten very far with it by 11:00 or so when we got there (gotta stretch these things out to cover all three days...). SWMBETTE was very taken by his post drill. Roy glances at me (or more'n likely, the Stealth Galoot [#127]) hat, and then looks at her and says something like "I'll bet you've never seen one of these things before, unless you're father's a Galoot..." Good chuckle all around (there was a little bit of a crowd). We then position her onto the board, and she spins the post drill for a little while, Roy giving pointers to her. Truthfully, she didn't drill that big of a hole, but it sure was fun to watch. My turn at the drill came later in the day. We then wandered around, looking at the various demos. Watched Frank Klausz tune up his #4 again (resisted the urge to ask him if he advocated drilling holes through the sole to hold a fence), watched the gentleman with the foot powered lathe. Watched Steve Blenk finish up a nice curly maple bowl on his lathe and also saw his spindle turning demo later in the day where he was making spirals on the lathe. We continued throughout the show, looking for Galoot hats... Where or where were the SoCal Galoots? Had a nice stop at the Lie-Nielsen booth. SWMBETTE immediately siezed the #2 and began making shavings off the piece of pine they had on the bench. Several attendees were suprised to see a _girl_ making curlies with a hand plane with no instruction from anyone. Can you tell I was proud? :-) I did slobber on the IT saw, even letting SWMBO hold it so she could see why I need one of these. SWMBETTE was now asking for a #2 :-) Just gotta get her to start saying that to SWMBO more then maybe I, uh, _she_ can get one. From what the gentleman at the L-N booth said, the IT saws should be shipping shortly. I hope I hope I hope. As we were wrapping up our day there, we stopped by to see how Roy was doing on the house. He'd gotten a bit more of it together, and that's where I met Richard Garlick from CO. Only other hatted Galoot there. It seems that Roy forgot to bring _his_ Galoot hat. I took my turn on the drill, while he & SWMBO chatted. With Mr. Garlick's help with the drill, I retracted the bit and admired the hole just bored. With our day over, we then headed back home in 4:00 traffic along Interstate 10 (very busy freeway [expressway] here in SoCal, Jeff). Took a while getting home. All in all, it was a very good day. ============================================================= John Solie - jsolie@i... http://www.inland.net/~jsolie ============================================================= ---- Start of Message 59151 (thread 25658) ---- From: Richard Garlick Date: 1999-03-08 02:37:00 Subject: Re: AWW Trip Report GG, I managed to wangle a So Cal business trip to coincide with the AWW show and went in search of Galoots and Galootish stuff. When I walked in the door Friday, the first thing I see is Roy Underhill complete with red suspenders and beat up cap working on a timber frame replica of the cabin on walden pond. Roy saw my stealth galoot hat and did the " Oh no not galoots here to" bit. Roy was using a boring machine to rough out a mortise in a timber and offered to let me drill a few holes which then started a chain reaction of can I try it too Roy from the crowd. Roy is just a super nice guy and started letting everybody who wanted give it a try which by Saturday evening had the beam looking like swiss cheese. My galoot hat got me a pass to wander around inside the roped off cabin and play with Roy's other tools. I've gotta say Roy doesn't mind a lot of rust on his tools. He cleans and sharpens the cutting edge and leaves the rest the way he found it. I met John Solie and his SWMBO AND SWMBETTE on Friday afternoon. His was the only other galoot hat I saw in the two days I was there. Other galootish types giving seminars included Frank Klauz, who had his spalted and culy maple workbench that was in FWW a couple of years ago and did the hand cutting dovetails at the speed of light demo. Also Don "the bodger" Weber and his treadle lathe and Toshio Odate hand making Shoji screens with Japanese tools. Galootish companies in attendance were Lie-Nielsen (the record 073 replica will be shipping within the next week to people with orders already placed 4 to 6 weeks for new orders; Lee Valley tools and Bridge City Tools. Sorry for the length of this post but it was a good show. Rick ++++ End of thread 25658 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25659 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59134 (thread 25659) ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 1999-03-07 08:39:00 Subject: Mini-gloat Hi peoples. This has gotta be the weekend to end all weekends. Picture this: Saturday: As some of you might know, my first "sickness" is fishing. We went out and got: 2X Mahi-Mahi, played and landed. 30 pound. 2X Wahoo, played and landed. 30 pound. 1X Blue Marlin, estimated weight 120 lbs, fought and tagged. Sunday: Some of you might also know that my second "sickness" is old tools. Half-early Sydney old tools sale. Score: 1X Disston dovetail saw, A$10 (approx. US$6). Some surface rust, no pits. 1X Lignum Vitae Wood compass plane, A$20, good condition, needs mouth closed. 1X Wood Spokeshave, with wingnut-adjustable blade, perfect condition, A$15. 1X Alex Mathieson beading plane, 5/8", perfect condition, A$12. Sighted: 3X(yes, three!) Stanley 52s, complete and in perfect condition! Going for approx. A$1500, which is WAY out of my price range. But just SEEING them felt good. Of course I tried them. Smooth is not the word... Did I forget something? Oh yeah! Neener,neener.... Sorry fellas, couldn't resist! Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@a... http://www.acay.com.au/~nsouto/welcome.htm ++++ End of thread 25659 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25660 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59135 (thread 25660) ---- From: "John A. Gunterman" Date: 1999-03-07 12:45:00 Subject: Fred Emhoff Spon Bits Anybody have contact information for Fred Emhoff handy a (oflist) buddie needs some good spoon bits and really likes the set I got from Fred, but I lost his phone #. ---- Start of Message 59138 (thread 25660) ---- From: Allan Fisher Date: 1999-03-07 18:41:00 Subject: Re: Fred Emhoff Spon Bits At 07:45 AM 3/7/99 -0500, you wrote: >Anybody have contact information for Fred Emhoff handy a (oflist) buddie >needs some good spoon bits and really likes the set I got from Fred, but I >lost his phone #. Fred Emhof R.D. #1 Box 124 Burlington Flats, NY 13315 (607) 965-8420 ++++ End of thread 25660 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25661 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59141 (thread 25661) ---- From: eugene@t... Date: 1999-03-07 16:24:00 Subject: Ah, yes, digitized wood Well, GG's, you knew it was only a matter of time before it happened. Ancient planks - with all the character, patina, and history - reproduced by digital scanners and printed on laminate "wood". On 3/3 The Christian Science Monitor ran a story by Ross Atkin about the introduction of fake "old" wood primarily for flooring by several major wood pulp peddlers. Oldgrowth heartpine, oak with sawmarks, aged chestnut. These are authentic flatbed scans of real stuff, assembled into 5x8' images. Happily, he did mention they admitted that everyone notices at a glance that it isn't real. Pukey ducks were enough! I haven't been around pukey floors since my fraternity days, and don't want to be. Is this the end of the raping of forests? Is this the end of artificially distressed furniture, fake adz and scrub plane marks added to finished furniture? That wouldn't be too awful, since the lifespan of _this_ stuff is probably 5 years. I almost wish them luck with their marketing efforts to unload the baby diaper pulp fibre. What we need now though, is to create the 3-D face of the time worn surface, and the visual depth, fire, and life, of that wood. That would fool 'em all. C'mon digital Galoots, together we could do it with software and laser machining! Gene ++++ End of thread 25661 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25662 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59143 (thread 25662) ---- From: Bob and Margaret Johnson Date: 1999-03-07 22:07:00 Subject: FS March Tools, part 1 Greetings Galoots, Here is the March list grouped alphbetically. Old tool terms apply. Please send your mailing address with your order. Thanks to all of you for your past support and for your wealth of knowledge. Bob A225 Lathing Hatchet Underhill Nice hatchet, Handle needs re-w edging. Very good condition $9.00 A226 Lathing Hatchet Unknown Older model, but good condition. Handl e needs re-wedging $9.00 A227 Lathing Hatchet Acme Acme Lathing Hatchet. Handle split, otherwise good condition. $9.00 A255 Ship Carpenter's Adze Unknown Long handled Adze with spike fo r driving caulking. Very nice condition $35.00 A304 Railroad Adze Unknown Head only. 5" wide blade. Needs sharpening, otherwise in very good condition. $20.00 A305 Hand-forged Field Hoe Unknown Head only. Looks like an adze w/ 3 1/2" wide blade. Only needs sharpening and a handle and you'll ready to attack those weeds. $10.00 A306 Hand-forged Field Hoe Unknown Head only. Looks like an adze w/ 3 1/2" wide blade. Only needs sharpening and a handle. With this you'll be the biggest Hoe'r in town. :^) $10.00 A308 Railroad Pick Unknown Head only. Pitted but will clean up. $5.00 A309 Pickaroon Unknown Head only. Single-ended Blade is narro w but deep. $5.00 A310 Pickaroon Unknown Head only. Single-ended Blade is narro w but deep. $5.00 A317 Miner's Pick Iron City Primative Handle. Head marked "Iron City" inside 6-pointed star. Also marked "Extra Hand Made" $10.00 A319 Field Hoe Unknown Forged Hoe with socket for pick type ha ndle. Handle is primative. $9.00 A320 Ice Axe Unknown European design. Handle needs wedge, otherwise very good. Be the first on the lake to have one. $15.00 B422 Lineman's Bit Irwin 3/4" x 18" Irwin pattern bit with Hexag onal shank (Designed to fit in po*er* tool) Light rust, otherwise very good $6.00 B423 Lineman's Bit Irwin 3/4" x 18" Irwin pattern bit with Hexag onal shank (Designed to fit in po*er* tool) Light rust, otherwise very good $6.00 B424 Lineman's Bit Irwin 3/4" x 18" Irwin pattern bit with Hexag onal shank (Designed to fit in po*er* tool) Light rust, otherwise very good $6.00 B440 Breast Drill Millers-Falls Unk M-F Breast Drill with 18?? pate nt date. 17" overall length. This model changes gearing by moving the crank gear between one of two holes. Finish is well worn. Wood handles are in good condition. A good user. $20.00 B445 M-F 1410 Brace Millers-Falls 1410 Wood is very good. Some light rust on metal. $20.00 B451 Brace Unknown 10" sweep. Unusual ratcheting mechanism. A st op on either side of ratchet cog snap in or out. Wood is in good condition with few paint smears. Metal is well patina-ed with some rust but no pitting $15.00 B452 Brace Japan, Inc 10" sweep. Only markings are "Vales" a nd "Japan". Nickle plating is 80%+. Wood needs refinishing but otherwise good. Please buy it before it takes over the toolshed. $10.00 B459 Breast Drill -NDERES Heavy-duty two-speed breast drill. Cra nk gear shaft fits in either of two holes to change speeds. Gear is held in place by spring-loaded pins so changing gears is easy. Has ususal compliment of dirt, patinga, and light rust. Will clean up nicely. Nick $20.00 B461 10" Brace Unknown Nickle plating is gone. Wood is OK but needs refinishing. Mechanism works fine. Not pretty, but good user. $10.00 B488 12" Brace Stanley 923 Later version 923. Wood is painted bla ck. Direction adjustment collar is plastic. Some light rust. Normal wear on handles. Good inexpensive user. $12.50 B491 No-name 10" Brace w/ Four-Jaw chuck Unknown Wood and metal will clean up nicely. $15.00 B492 Brace Unknown 10", possibly PS&W. Barber pattern chuck. Wood will refinish nicely. Metal has plenty of patina but will clean up $15.00 B494 12" Brace Stanley 965N Black painted wood needs touching up. Metal has been cleaned, cleaned, cleaned. $20.00 B507 10" Brace Stanley? Probably Stanley. Wood is very good. Plating is shot. Good user with plenty of that desireable patina $10.00 B508 10" Brace Unknown Wood is good. Metal is dirty, but will clean up. Plating mostly gone. Nice little user $7.50 B511 Eggbeater Drill Unknown Unknown Manufacturer. Nice drill with bit storage in handle. Wood is good. Red paint on gear wheel is 60%. Metal parts show very little signs of wear. Overall length 13".. $15.00 B517 Heavy-duty Chain Drill Millers-Falls The heaviest I have see n. Japanning is 75%. Occasional light rust. Set-screw type "chuck" takes 1/2" or smaller shanks. $20.00 B519 Chain Drill Unknown Two jaw chuck. Loads of patina. No ma rkings, but I would guess it to be older model. $15.00 B535 12" "Sampson" Brace PS&W Patent date 1895. Wood is good except couple of minor cracks in pod. Metal is good with pleasant patina. The wire spring that holds the jaws together is missing, otherwise it is in good mechanical condition. Good collector's tool. $20.00 B579 Chain Drill Millers-Falls Heavy duty model in excellent condition. Japanning is 95%. Looks nearly new. A good one. $25.00 B589 8" Brace Pexto 801 Wood and metal are good. Few light rus t spots on 2-jaw chuck. Nice smaller size brace. $20.00 B598 12" Brace Stanley 78 Repairable crack in pod. Light rust sp ots on chuck. Made in England. Good tool. $10.00 B599 Victor 10" Brace Stanley Wood good. Plating worn. Plent y patina. $10.00 B607 English Brass Trimmed Wooden Brace Slater Manufactured by Slater (1822-1844). Beechwood brace with Lignum Vitae Pod. Brass and wood have normal dings and wear but are in very good condition. $275.00 B618 Expansion Bit Clark 1- 1 1/2" range. Irwin knock off. Go od condition. $5.00 B630 1 3/4" Auger Unknown Rusty but restorable with nicely turned handle that has been painted green. $10.00 B631 1 1/4" Auger Unknown Rusty but restorable. No handle but ha s a loop formed in end of shank to accept a 1" dowel or handle. $10.00 B636 Center bits (5) Unknown 1- 1 1/8" square shank, 1 - 1" square shank, 1 - 1" flat shank, 2 - 5/8 flat shank. Various manufacturers. 2 of these bits have minor pitting, otherwise good. $20.00 B642 "Holdall" 12" Brace Millers-Falls 761 Wood is good, metal has light surface rust. Will clean up to be a very nice user. $15.00 B656 5/16" Auger Unknown 34" long. Screw needs sharpening. Woo d handle and metal in good condition. $15.00 DS 86 Cooper's Drawknife Unknown Drawknife This is a "Seri ous" drawknife with a 10" wide by 2 1/8" deep blade. Handles appear to be Hickory. Very good condition wxcept one handle is split and blade has minor nicks. Blade marked "?Simmons" $25.00 DS265 Cooper's Shave Unknown Blade is lightly pitted. Handle has a longitudinal crack.. Will clean up with some work. $10.00 DS363 Stanley #80M Scraper Stanley 80M Near-new condition. Later model. Paint is 99% (only minor scratch). Blade like new. No rust. $35.00 DS378 Stanley #81 Scraper Stanley 81 Excellent condition. Nickle plating is worn on tops of handles but otherwise nearly perfect. Rosewood sole is a replacement and is oversize but can be trimmed. There are minor gouges in this piece. The blade is wrong and will need to be replaced, $40.00 DS443 #81 Scraper Stanley 81 This is strictly a user. The plating i s shot and there is rust aplenty. A real candidate for electrolysis. The rosewood pad is OK. There is no blade. A good user at a good price. $25.00 DS479 "Karpenter" brand drawknife, 12" blade. Winsted Very go od condition. A serious drawknife. $25.00 DS480 "Karpenter" brand drawknife, 8" blade. Winsted Paint on handle s is worn, otherwise very good $25.00 DS481 10" Drawknife Ohio Tool Metal cap missing from one hand le. Plenty of surface rust. Will clean up nicely. $15.00 DS539 9" Drawknife by Beatty of Chester, PA. Beatty & Son Good heavy-duty knife. Light rust but will clean up to very good. Wood handles will clean up to excellent with light sanding and refinishing. $35.00 DS576 Pexto 10" Drawknife Pexto Good useable knife that needs resharpening and some cleanup. Wood and metal both in good condition. $25.00 DS586 8" Drawknife Sargent Curved edge. Good knife with plenty of use left in it. Light surface rust and handles need refinishing. $35.00 DS590 Scraper Stanley 82 Japanning is shot and metal has light rust. Finish is gone from wood. Knob has a few minor repairable cracks. Blade is OK. Wing nut is a replacement. In other words, this is a "project" tool, but will clean up to be a great user. $20.00 DS614 7" Drawknife L. R. Barton Heavy duty. curved blade. Han dles are good but need refinishing and one or the other is a replacement because they don't match. Good user $25.00 DS623 Wazzit Shave/Drawknife Unknown Strange shave/drawknife like device. 12" long with handles at right angle to base. Blace is detachable and looks like a very heavy plane iron. Blade is 2 3/4" wide and is held in place with screw clamps. 2 setscrews adjust the pitch of the blade. $40.00 DS645 Wooden Scraper Handle Unknown 12" wooden handle with a slot t o accept scraper blade. Steel clamp tightens with thumb nut to hold blade. Good condition. $10.00 DS646 Wooden Scraper Handle Unknown 12" wooden handle with a slot t o accept scraper blade. Steel clamp tightens with thumb nut to hold blade. Good condition except slightly charred on one end. Will clean up. $10.00 DS647 Wooden Spokeshave Unknown Blade sits in notches and is he ld in place with screws & washers. Brass throat plate. Good condition $20.00 DS648 Wooden Scraper blade holder Unknown Looks like a wooden spo ke shave but it's holds a scraper blade with an inset piece secured with screws. Brass sole plates. Unusual and handy tool. $20.00 DS652 Scraper E C Atkins Wooden handled scraper blade holder. N o blade. Good condition. $15.00 DS653 Scraper E C Atkins Wooden handled scraper blade holder. N o blade. Good condition. $15.00 H191 Plum 16 oz Ball Pein Hammer Plumb Complete with decals on head and handle, this is a newer model in near mint condition $9.00 H194 Copper Hammer Unknown 20-24 oz Copper Hammer. Used in Powder & Gas-works plants because they didn't spark. Head is a beautiful color but the two faces are mushroomed. Hickory handle. May include Beryllium which is hazardous to inhale or ingest. $18.00 H197 Stone Cutter's Hammer Unknown Similar to Cross Pein Hammer. Good Condition $10.00 H201 Claw Hammer Philadelphia Tool 16 oz Claw hammer, hand le needs re-wedging, otherwise very good $8.00 H202 16 oz Straight Claw Hammer Unknown Handle needs to be re-w edged, otherwise good. Ca 1920's? $4.00 H203 Welder's Slag Hammer Unknown Wooden handled Slag Hammer. Ve ry good condition $8.00 H205 Slag Hammer Unknown Early Slag Hammer, very good condition $10.00 H206 Shipwright's Caulking Mallet Unknown Caulking mallet with wo od head reinforced with iron rings. Very good condition $45.00 H207 Cross-pein hammer Unknown Machinists hammer, about 16 oz. Handle is loose, face is slightly mushroomed. Will clean up to Good + $3.00 H213 Log marking Hammer Unknown Like a small sledge hammer with a raised letter on each face. Used to mark logs. This one has an "H" on the faces and is in excellent condition. $50.00 H214 Log marking Hammer Unknown Like a small sledge hammer, thi s one has "88" on each side of hammer rather than on face. Good condition $35.00 H215 Bushing Hammer Unknown Stoneworker's hammer with raised pyrami d pattern on faces. Used for flattening bumps on stone. Approx 8 lb head. Very good condition $25.00 H216 Bushing Hammer Unknown 3-4# head, 30" handle. Stoneworkers hammer. Also good for concrete work $20.00 H224 Brick Hammer Unknown Good Condition, Handle needs to be re-w edged $10.00 H416 Slater's Hammer (Zax) Unknown Home-made with leather washer handle. Head and shank are somewhat pitted. leather rings on handle are uneven. Good useable condition. $10.00 H483 Assay hammer? Unknown Odd hammer with cross-pein face and lon g, tapered round pick. Sort of like a rock hammer but lighter. My guess is it may have been used in assay work. Handle is a little loose but otherwise very good condition. $17.50 H484 Small Pein Hammer Unknown Probably 6-8 oz. Handle needs re-wedging, otherwise very good. $12.50 H513 Cobbler's Hammer Head Unknown Nice clean head. Just what you need for adjusting those plane blades. Add your own handle and start tappin' $7.50 M75 Owner-mde Bevel Guage Unknown Bevel Guage 12" Oak Bevel Guage wit h Brass blade. Very well made and in excellent condition $25.00 M77 Chapin-Stevens #252 Marking Guage Chapin-Stevens Marking Guage Brass-trimmed Boxwood. Slight split in sliding piece, otherwise very good. CA 1915 $35.00 M81 Boxwood Marking Guage Unknown Marking Guage Factory made marking guage with printed "ruler" on beam, brass wear plates on face, and wooden thumb screw. End of beam is cracked thru pin hole. Otherwise very good condition. $15.00 M107 30" Draftsman's T-Square K & E T-Square Excellent Condi tion. $10.00 M121 Brass, Nickle plated Beam Dividers Unknown Beam Dividers Nice se t with one point and one inking pen. One holder has fin screw adjustment. These are in a leather-covered, felt lined, french-fitted case. Dividers are in excellent condition, on small area of corrosion on one piece. Box is worn at edges and fa $30.00 M134 Boxwood Folding Rule, 24" Lufkin 751 Ca. 1918. Fair conditi on. Brass aligning wires bent or missing. One side of two segments is faded $10.00 M464 #680 4-fold, 2 ft. rule. E. C. Simmons Redline Stained in plac es, but markings are readable. All alignment pins missing. marked in 1/8ths on one side and 1/16ths on other. $10.00 M471 Architects Rule Stanley 53 1/2 Four-fold, two-foot folding rule with architects scales on one side and 8ths and 16ths on the other. Outside faces have very minor scratches and dirt. Otherwise very good condition. $75.00 M536 Triangular Engineer's Rule Gramercy Pearwood. Made in Germany. 6 scales. Pukey yellow color. Minor dings from normal use, but paint and markings are 99%. $5.00 M548 12" Combination Square Corsair New in the plastic bag with lab el. Made in U.S.A. With level and scribe. Graduated in 1/8, 1/16, and 1/32. New condition. $10.00 M553 5" Outside Calipers Millers Falls Very good condition exc ept owners name has been engraved. $7.50 M565 Rosewood Bevel Guage Unknown Wood is nice, but blade has rus t spots that will clean up without pitting. Not a quality tool, but functional. $10.00 M578 Rosewood Bevel Gauge 8" Unknown Unknown manufacturer. Stainles s steel blade. Wood and metal in very good condition. Only needs light cleaning. $10.00 M655 Break-down Carpenter's Framing Square Nicholls Breaks into two pieces via sliding dovetail joint. Locks with a turnbutton. Full rafter scales w/ instructions on reverse side. Nice patina. Very good condition. $75.00 MBLP562 Block Plane Stanley 19 2-18-13 patent date. Type 12. Knuckle cap block plane. Sole is pitted and there is a small chip out of side at rear. Otherwise very good condition. Good user plane for those of you who favor the knuckle-block style. $30.00 MBP359 Shelton #4 Old-Style Smooth Plane Shelton #4 Old-style Shelt on with adjusting screw build into blade cap. Ca. 1930's. Excellent Condition $25.00 MBP496 Sargent Jack Plane Sargent Metal is good except for some s urface rust and paint. Tote has clean, repairable break. Wood needs refinishing. $25.00 MBP497 #6 Foreplane, Type 15 Stanley 6 Plenty of rust and patina. Lig ht chipping on front edge of lever cap. Tip off tote but knob good. Good user $35.00 MBP498 #6 Foreplane, Type 15 Stanley 6 Wood needs refinishing, japanni ng is 80%. Plating on lever cap is worn. Will clean up to very nice plane. $65.00 MBP500 Later model 605 Stanley 605 Frog has been broken and well repaired. Doesn't affect performance. Tip off tote. Tote toe screw is improper replacement. Blade marked "made in Canada". Lever cap may be a replacement. Other than that, it's a good user at a good price. $40.00 MBP587 Low-knob type 13? Stanley 4 Knob is probably a replacement. Tote has repaired break near base and chip out of top edge. "V" blade has 1 3/4" useable length. Japanning is 50%. $30.00 MBP588 #3 size Bench Plane Shelton #3 Similar to Gage. No markings except patent number 1914609 on lever cap (most Sheltons had name and patent number cast in bed). Very light rust, otherwise in very good condition. $45.00 MBP592 #4. Stanley Two-tone 1940's model with cream-colored bed and orange from. Tote has properly repaired break. Knob has repairable crack. I have one just like this and it's one of my favorite users. $35.00 MBP595 Type 8-9 Stanley 5 Japanning 50 %. Small chip out of chee d at rear corner. "Q" blade had 1+ inches left. Tip off tote. Knob good. $20.00 MBP596 Type 9 Stanley 6 Japanning 70%. Tote dinged but will clean up. Repairable crack in knob. 1 3/4" left on "Q" Blade. $40.00 MBP597 Merit Bench Plane #5 Merit 5 Japanning 90%. Wood good buts needs refinishing. Metal good. Made in Canada. $20.00 ++++ End of thread 25662 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25663 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59144 (thread 25663) ---- From: Bob and Margaret Johnson Date: 1999-03-07 22:40:00 Subject: FS - March Tools, Part 2 Greetings Galoots, Here is the March list grouped alphbetically. Old tool terms apply. Please send your mailing address with your order. Thanks to all of you for your past support and for your wealth of knowledge. Bob MISC165 Miter Jack Unknown Rare & Unusual tool. Sort of a combina tion miter clamp and shooting board, used to make miter joints. A series of walnut triangular pieces slide on a walnut base with a wood screw clamp made of Hickory. Ca 1840. $85.00 MISC218 Butteris Unknown Farrier's Tool for trimming hooves. On e piece iron. Needs wooden handle $8.00 MISC232 Tool Holder Unknown 5 1/2" long tool holder with winged chu ck nut. Handle is boxwood? with only 1 minor chip. Overall condition is very good. Only one tool.$5.00 MISC264 Farrier's Hoof Knife Wooden handle, brass tang, coul d be reground for a nice marking knife $5.00 MISC273 Branding Iron Everhot 17" long w/ wooden handle marked "Everhot". Has 1" high letter "M" at the business end. So if your initial is "M", you have to have this to mark your work, possessions, kids, etc. $10.00 MISC299 Concrete Edger & Divider Various 1 Concrete edger and 1 Concrete Divider (Seamer?) Good useable tools for those of you who like to play in the mud. $10.00 MISC322 Tobacco Plug Cutter P.J. Sorg. Spearhead model. Mount ed on a board. Looks sort of like a mitre trimmer. $20.00 MISC323 Steelyard Unknown These are hanging "balances" for weighi ng smaller items. This one has two hooks and two scales. Very good condition. $45.00 MISC324 Homemade Steelyard Unknown Balance Scale for weighing. Ve ry well made. Good condition. Not legal for trade :^) $40.00 MISC325 Homemade Steelyard Unknown Balance Scale for weighing. Ve ry well made. $40.00 MISC326 Cooper's Flagging Iron Unknown Used to spread the staves for caulking. Very well made. Excellent condition. $32.00 MISC327 Cooper's Flagging Iron Unknown Home made flagging iron. Good condition. $25.00 MISC329 Gasoline Blowtorch Unknown No manufacturer's mark on this anywhere. It's been shined up. Ready for your lamp-making pleasure. $20.00 MISC331 Gasoline Blowtorch Turner Brassworks Good working co ndition. Will shine up nicely. $15.00 MISC401 Hay Knife Unknown 4" wide x 20" long blade. 16" hickory handle. Pitted but useable. $10.00 MISC429 Wiss Tin Snips Wiss 9 12 1/2" long, old-style snips. Good condition. Owners name stamped in inside of one handle. $5.00 MISC542 5" Hand Grinder Unknown Nice little grinder. One-piece cast iron housing, open so gear is exposed. Wheel is in good condition. No tool rest but you can fix that. $30.00 MISC608 Miter Jack Unknown Large Miter Jack, 24" long. Wooden scr ew is in very good condition. Jack is overall very good condition but needs refinishing. $50.00 MISC627 Moisture Meter Moisture Register K2D Needs a battery. Appea rs to be in excellent condition. Comes in carrying box $50.00 MISC635 Cast-iron Grinding Wheel Dresser Unknown Cast handle wit h 4 toothed wheels. Japanning is 50% otherwise good condition. $10.00 MISC637 Dazey "Sharpit" knife sharpening hand grinder. Dazey 1925 patent date. Wheel is dirty but otherwise everything is in good shape. $15.00 Misc643 Hand Grinder Unknown Unusual chain and gear-driven grinder. Cast iron parts. Link-belt style chain drives grinding wheel from an intermediate gear. Handle gear has integral handle lever. Japanning on frame is 85%. Wood handle is good. Extra thin grinding wheel included. $30.00 Misc644 Small Blowtorch Turner Made by Turner Brass works. Marked No. 481. This is a small torch with oval tank and pump integral to handle. Wooden flame adjusting knob. Brass is tarnished and has some scratches. Should polish up nicely. $30.00 Misc651 Congoleum-Nairn Pin Vise w/ box C-G TO-18 Aluminum handle that holds pin with set screw. Complete and in very good condition. Box is worn and flap on end is torn. Unusual tool. $10.00 MISC657 Shoemakers Edge Plane Snell & Atherton Handle needs refinishing, otherwise very good condition. $10.00 MSP123 Stanley #50 Beading or Combination Plane Stanley 50 Patent Date 8-11-03 and "B" Casting mark on frame and fence. Seven cutters + T&G cutter. Condition is Very Good. Nickle plating is 80% on main frame, goon on fence. Slitting cutters are good. No depth stop $100.00 MSP241 1Box of Cutters For Stanley 55 (#2Box) Stanley 55 Box #2, 12 Cutters. #13 & 14 Plough missing, #18 1/2 Plough added. #1 Fillitster & #5 Match included. Box label is worn and stained but completely readable. Box has no top. Blades in very good condition w/ only light rust. $75.00 MSP473 Scrub Plane Stanley 40 Sweetheart blade. Japanning is 60%. Owner name scratched in side. Wood will refinish to excellent. $75.00 MSP544 Type 4 Combination Plane Stanley 45 Early model with front knob on main plane. Floral pattern. Nickle is darkened with age and well worn on skates. Rosewood is good but could use a refinishing. Wingnut holding cutter is missing one wing. Front and rear depth stops but no slitter. One $150.00 MSP593 Rabbet Plane Stanley 78 Complete except no depth stop. Japanni ng 70%. Some light rust. Good user. $25.00 MSP594 Parts Stanley 78 Blade, Blade cap, adjusting lever, knicker screw, 2 blade cap screws. All good condition. $15.00 MSP611 Saw-blade Metallic Plane Unknown This tool has a frame a nd fence somewhat similar to a #50. But it has a saw blade attached to the bottom of the frame. Nearly identical to one shown in Martin Donnelly's 1998 catalog. (Page 62, item D-2 -27). Japanning is 75%. Otherwise in very good condition. $200.00 MSP629 Beading Plane Stanley 50 Frame, fence, and rods only. No cutters or depth stop. Plating is well worn. Nickers are present. Plane is in good condition except for worn plating. $60.00 P288 10" Nippers Unknown Dated 1878. Replaceable cutters. Flat-faced. Good tool. Good condition. Good price. $10.00 P289 8" Rod-busters Pliers Unknown These are meant for twisting an d tying wire. Good condition. $5.00 P332 Set of 3 Nippers Unknown Set of 3 nippers. 2 are 8" lon g, 1 is 10". Condition good. $18.00 S104 Home-made "Turning" Saw Unknown Owner-made saw with 1/2" x 12" hacksaw blade $10.00 S248 Oak Turning Saw, 3/4" Blade Unknown Very good condition $25.00 S275 Chatillon #350 Meat Saw Chatillon Light rust on frame. H andle is in very good condition. Blade is 5/8" x 22". $25.00 s276 Meat Saw Unknown Very old meat saw in nice condition. B lade is 3/4" x 23". Handle has a repairable crack. $20.00 S343 Keyhole Saw Unknown Small keyhole saw with metal handle. g ood conditi $5.00 S396 Backsaw and Folding Miter Box Bishop Saw is marked Geo. H Bi shop on blade and back. Patend Date 1906. Blade is toothed on two sides and one end. Blade is locked into handle with a lever. Miter Box is 3 pieces of wood hinged together. Center piece has adjustable metal guides for 45 and 9 $75.00 S427 Millers-Falls #12 Hacksaw Frame Millers Falls 12 Good, heavy dut y hacksaw frame (w/ blade) Light rust. Bakelite handle grips. $5.00 S486 Sawset Unknown A different type of sawset. The anvil is angle d and is adjusted up or down via an adjusting screw. A locking nut holds is secure. Japanning mostly gone. Light surface rust. $20.00 S540 22" skew back tool crosscut saw. Disston D-8 4-screw model. "10" stamped in heel of blade. Blade has light rust but will clean up nicely. Handle is good + condition but needs refinishing. Will make excellent toolbox saw. $25.00 S569 Crosscut Disston D-23 7 point saw with wheat-motif handle. 5-screw. 26" long, 1 1/2" wide at tip and 6" wide at handle. Blade has some surface rust. Handle needs refinishing. $15.00 S574 Disston Rancher Disston R-1 10-point crosscut, 26". Laminated beechwood handle. 4-screws. Blade needs cleaning. Handle shows some light checking on one side and needs refinishing. Good utility saw. $12.00 S575 Handyman Crosscut saw Stanley 1526 26", 8 point. Birch handle wit h wheat motif. Blade has some light surface rust. Handle needs cleaning. Good toolbox saw. $8.00 S591 Miter Box and Saw Stanley 60 Box is complete and in good con dition except light rust. Missing one "pointed screw" used to bit into peice being cut to prevent slipping. Saw needs to be derusted and sharpened. Handle has repairable break and cracks and needs refinishing. I purchased $45.00 S600 Skew-back, 6 point cross cut. Bishop 8 Fingerhole handle (5-nu t) has repairable crack and obligatory paint drip. Blade straight, needs light cleaning $30.00 S602 5 tooth crosscut Skewback saw. Disston Fingerhole, 5-nut handl e. Needs electrolysis. Handle has minor crack and needs refinishing. Blade is straight but lightly pitted. $25.00 S605 26" Skewback,8-point crosscut saw Disston D-8 5-nut handle ne eds refinishing but is in good condition. Blade needs zapping but is straight and in good condition $15.00 S612 Large Hacksaw Unknown May be home made, but it is very well m ade. The frame is 16" long and 7" deep, allowing for deeper cuts than with a standard hacksaw. Frame and wooden handle very good. Nails used as blade retaining pins. $20.00 S616 Dehorning saw Disston Small metal framed saw with integral wo oden handle. Frame is wrought and oval-shaped in cross section. Frame marked "Disston USA". Accepts 10" blade. One blade pin missing. Interesting tool. $40.00 S619 27" Miter Box Saw Langdon Butts" stamped his mark on the handle 5 times. $20.00 SL111 Stanley Handyman 24" level Stanley H-1294 A modest little level i n good condition. Metal plate over vial is tarnished. Trademark is excellent. Good level for the kids or for rough work, where you don't want to risk a fancy level.` $7.50 SL112 48" Mason Level American 75181 Brass-trimmed Mahogany level. Curved vials indicate is of later manufacture. Perfect working order, but not pretty. $20.00 SL609 24" Cherry wood Level Stanley 3 Has been nicely cleaned up. Vi als are intact. One small ding on lower edge, otherwise in very good condition. $20.00 SVY97 Walnut Plumb Bob Unknown Plumb Bob Nicely turned Walnut Pl umb Bob 3" long x 3/4" diam. Excellent condition except has slight groove around perimeter near point, and point is slightly dinged. The perfect desk ornament for the Galoot. Or, make it into a Bolo Tie :^) $15.00 SVY99 Home made Brass Plumb Bob Unknown Plumb Bob Nicely turned f rom 3/4" Brass Rod. Very Good condition. Has initials "J.F." stamped in side $20.00 SVY641 Surveyor's Chain, 100 ft. Lufkin 1903 patent date. Wood en "frame", nickle plated winding handle. Frame and handle are very good. Tape has light rust but should clean up OK. Wire bail on end of handle. $35.00 WBP23 Wooden Fore Plane Unknown Fore Wood is excellent with no crack s or checks. Iron has been slightly mushroomed at rear. $30.00 WBP24 Wood Jointer Plane Unknown Jointer Gorgeous beechwood pl ane with Walnut Burl handle set off center. Atkinson Bros. double iron. Iron dowel set in front . Some slight checking on body. Handle cracked but repairable. Iron mushroomed slightly. $40.00 WBP26 Wooden two-man Jack Plane Unknown Jack Unusual. Has two "handlebars" dovetailed into body so two people could use it two-handed. Double iron by Sandusky. Body is birch with minor checking. Wedge is home made. Iron is in very good condition $35.00 WBP27 Beech Horned Smoother Unknown Smoother Body is laminated from about 7 pieces of beech, not counting horn. Good shape except minor checking and small piece chipped out in front of horn. Double iron marked "Humphreysville. . ." is obviously early vintage but in good shape $35.00 WMP38 J. W. Farr 5/8" Beechwood Rounder J. W. Farr Rounder rounde r made by James W. Farr, dated 1832-1851. Wood and metal in excellent condition. $35.00 WMP45 1/2" Hollow Compass Moulder A. Geddes Hollow Compass Unusal. Wood and metal are excellent. Small piece broken off tip of wedge. Deep chamfer on edges is suggestive of 18th century specimens $40.00 WMP48 1 3/8" Cherry wood Rabbet Unknown Rabbet Very nice home made rabbet. Wood is excellent. Still has saw marks on nose end. Blade is very heavy and not tapered. Wedge is wide and flat. Good dispay or user item. $30.00 WMP52 1 1/4" Beechwood Nosing Plane Unknown Nosing Wood is very good. Iron is very good and marked "Dwight's French & Co. This company was in business in Seymour, Ct. 1844-1849. $35.00 WMP342 1" Hollow, #72 Ohio Tool Blade is very good. Body has s mall crack at mouth $15.00 WSP116 Wedged Arm Plough Plane Unknown Plough Manufactured by "W. Pa??". Blade marked "E. Preston, Cast Steel" and "3". Blade has a tapered V-groove cut in top edge. Brass thumb screw adjusts depth plate. Fence is nicely moulded. Wedges are not original. A steel plate forms the mouth. $90.00 WSP377 Coopers Sun Plane Ohio Tool This plane is absolutel y gorgeous! It is a dark wood with highly figured grain. There is very minor checking here and there and one 3" long check on one side near the sole which does not affect performance, and a small patch of rough grain on the sole $85.00 Y372 Yankee Screwdriver North Brothers 30 Plating is worn and han dle has a few dings. Otherwise good working condition. This is the large model about 18" long. $12.00 Y382 Yankee Screwdriver #130A Stanley 130A Good condition. Platin g is worn, but still more "silver" than "gold". Wood handle is dinged but will refinish nicely. Good working condition. $15.00 Y404 M-F Spiral Ratcheting Screwdriver Miller's-Falls 61A Excelle nt Condition. Plating is nearly 100%. Wood has only minor dings. $20.00 Y406 Spiral Ratcheting Screwdriver Miller's-Falls 61 Nice tool. Pla ting is 80+ %. Wood handle is dinged and needs refinishing. Overall Good+. $15.00 ++++ End of thread 25663 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25664 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59146 (thread 25664) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-03-08 00:16:00 Subject: Mortise gauge ID and ravages of inflation (I think this is sort of a gloat) SWMBO and I went antiquing through Edgerton Wisconsin today. SWMBO's grandfather was a blacksmith in Edgerton --- I have his father's Norwegian anvil and a couple of his tongs. I have not tried wearing the tongs yet as Hayward suggests is all the fashion in his area. I am a little unclear on the way one secures them, and would not want to have my tongs fall off at the grocery store. It would undoubtedly cause me to blush and others to snicker at my inability to get dressed properly. I already have an unfortunate reputation for shirtails. Edgerton is a nice place for tools. I picked up some nice stuff, that I wondered if I might impose on galoots to help me identify. One item is a well used rosewood and brass mortise gauge-- the kind where turning a screw on the end moves one of the points on a slide. I assumed it was a Stanley because the brass wear plate looks like what I have seen on Stanley's. But,I can't find Stanley anywhere on it, and when I got it home I discovered the remnants of a scale that appears to be metric rather than inch though it is dim. There is a bit of the patent date, "Patented Oct" (my son thinks the rest is "20, 1872", but it is invisible to my eyes). Could this possibly be be a Stanley 77M? The second item is a new in the box Stanley 78 that appears unused, though the little envelope with the depth adjuster has been opened and the instruction sheet is roughed up at the edges. I think Stanley still makes them, so this would be nothing special save for the fact that the box has the price on it......$6.50. I grumbled about the new price which we setlled on as 8 times the original marked price. Is it possible to date these by the original price? The mortise gauge is, of course, usable even if I don't use it, and thus a user item and not a collector. This may seem tricky logic to some, but I have been trained in logic, and I assure you it is just like the legal presumption that any woman can have a child no matter her age. The 78 is dangerous. I seem to already have a user 78.And a Millers Falls copy. And a Craftsman copy. It is going to be very difficult to convince myself that this on in the box is a user, though of course, I could put it away as a spare in case I were to be in the middle of a rabbet and the others broke because of previously hidden and unknown defects in the castings. Other items from Edgerton were a very nicely craftsman made mahogany molding plane with fence, a rosewood spokeshave, well worn, A KeenKutter level, a Mayes Bros. aluminum level, and an oil can. My month's funds quota for old tools has been shot, gutted, and hung to age. SWMBO mentioned this. I did not intend to buy the oil can which was a large one with a pump on it like a railroad engineer would use. My thumb could not resist pushing the plunger which had a very nice action -- push, push, push,push,push --and suddenly a stream of 50 year old oil shot across various figurines, teapots, and china. As the storekeeper kept her good humor as we wiped off various dwarves, angels, pocelain kittycats, and saucers, I felt obligated to buy. Anyway, I know it is in working order. Incidentally, for the galoot that was wondering about a pit saw, they had one there unless it was a small toothed 6' long ice saw (ice saws are common in this neck of the woods) . I found interesting the way the handle was attached. The handle was on two cast plates that fit over the blade and were secured to it by a square pin through the blade and an iron wedge tusk through the pin. ++++ End of thread 25664 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25665 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59147 (thread 25665) ---- From: Wes Groot Date: 1999-03-08 02:27:00 Subject: Woodie Questions ~~~~ H.Bush Rochester Brother Galoots Whilst out searching for more tools for my col... er my group of tools, I found this plane. It's a Grecian Ogee with Bevel (from Sellens' Woodworking Planes, pg. 159.) made to be used on 7/8ths inch stock. The Maker's mark is; H. Bush with Rochester imprinted twice,once upside down. See: http://home.earthlink.net/~wesg/oldtools/bushmark.jpg First question: Which Pollack book (or other reference) do I need to find the information that I need to identify this maker? There are apparently more than one, and I'd like to get the proper references so I'll be able to answer these types of questions on my own. This plane was made with two irons, it's missing the smaller of the two and it's wedge. See: http://home.earthlink.net/~wesg/oldtools/bushsole.jpg And see: http://home.earthlink.net/~wesg/oldtools/bushview.jpg Next question: It seems to me that the iron that remains will cut the profile. (which is why I bought it.) If it does, why the need for the other trailing iron? If it *doesn't*: Same question? Why not make the large iron 1/8th inch wider to cut the profile? Any light shed will be much appreciated! The plane is in great shape, but the boxing has two cracks. Next question: Do I need to "fix" these cracks to use the plane? If so, what can be done? Full of questions... Wes http://home.earthlink.net/~wesg/oldtools/bshprofile.jpg ---- Start of Message 59160 (thread 25665) ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1999-03-08 13:54:00 Subject: Re: Woodie Questions ~~~~ H.Bush Rochester Wes Groot asked: >I found this plane. It's a Grecian Ogee with Bevel (from Sellens' >Woodworking Planes, pg. 159.) made to be used on 7/8ths inch stock. The >Maker's mark is; H. Bush with Rochester imprinted twice,once upside >down. >First question: Which Pollack book (or other reference) do I need to >find the information that I need to identify this maker? ... This is the easy part. For identifying American makers and gaining some idea of their working dates and relative rarity of various marks, the book you're looking for is: Emil and Martyl Pollak, _A Guide to the Makers of American Wooden Planes_, Third Edition, Mendham, N.J.: The Astragal Press, 1994. ISBN: 1-879335-51-4. Pollaks list H. Bush as: "Henry Bush, Rochester, NY, was a planemaker and tool dealer during the period 1831-33, and later in partnership with William W. Bryan. ... **" [Two stars denotes rare, between 100 and 250 examples] > This plane was made with two irons, it's missing the smaller of the two >and it's wedge. ... >Next question: >It seems to me that the iron that remains will cut the profile. (which >is why I bought it.) If it does, why the need for the other trailing >iron? If it *doesn't*: Same question? Why not make the large iron 1/8th >inch wider to cut the profile? It does seem, from the photo, that the existing, wider, iron would, indeed, cut the entire profile. So, this is a bit puzzling. What follows is conjecture. I'd be interested in what others might have to say. This appears to be a fairly wide profile and it also appears that there's a fair amount of difference in "height" between the high and low points of the profile. It's sometimes difficult to keep the iron cutting uniformly across wider profiles. Also, the mouth would be slightly more open in the area near the quirk on this plane because of the difference in height of the profile. So, I'm thinking the second narrow iron may have been intended to address both of these potential difficulties? The mouth could be kept closer as it is localised to the area near [and at?] the quirk. Also, the wider iron could be adjusted carefully to be sure the balance of the iron is cutting uniformly (possibly deliberately making sure it's not cutting the area covered by the narrower iron?) and then adjusting the narrower iron to cut uniformly with it. Of course, what is puzzling is why the existing iron would be wide enough to cut the entire profile? It would seem more sensible that it would be wide enough to cut part of the profile and the missing iron finish the width. So, I'm wondering if the existing iron may not be an early replacement? > ... The plane is in great shape, >but the boxing has two cracks. >Next question: >Do I need to "fix" these cracks to use the plane? If so, what can be >done? This is a judgment call, I think. Is the boxwood tight? If so, I guess I'd be inclined to leave it alone unless a problem emerges with fibers becoming lodged in the cracks. If it's loose, there's a difference of opinion as to how to handle this - paper shims versus spot gluing. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ++++ End of thread 25665 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25666 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59148 (thread 25666) ---- From: ecoyle@c... (eric coyle) Date: 1999-03-08 00:48:00 Subject: Ah, yes, digitized wood eugene laments.... Well, GG's, you knew it was only a matter of time before it happened. Ancient planks - with all the character, patina, and history - reproduced by digital scanners and printed on laminate "wood". On 3/3 The Christian Science Monitor ran a story by Ross Atkin about the introduction of fake "old" wood primarily for flooring by several major wood pulp peddlers. Oldgrowth heartpine, oak with sawmarks, aged chestnut. These are authentic flatbed scans of real stuff, assembled into 5x8' images. Happily, he did mention they admitted that everyone notices at a glance that it isn't real. Cowtown Eric adds. The knife making shelves at the local tool emporium have an assortment of dyed and polymerized wood blanks sutiable for making Psuedo-damaskazied-wood knife handles. I was suprised as heck when my wife picked out a laminate for her new desk which was a photo-repro of this same P-K wood. I just had to say "no". This kinda ranks as "second generation fake" and is just a little too far removed from reality to accept. oldtool content..... WTB ....OLD formica sample chains..... hey, it's what happens naturally to the retro in ya...sides, they got some real funky patterns.... Cowtown Eric MDF and particle bd is bad enuf. ++++ End of thread 25666 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25667 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59149 (thread 25667) ---- From: "Frank Filippone" Date: 1999-03-08 01:12:00 Subject: Dunlap #3 Plane I read all these items about Stanley Tools, but rarely see comments about Dunlap tools. Is Dunlap a well respected company? Were the tools of equal or different quality to the Stanley? Frank Filippone red735i@e... Attachment winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1k Download Replies Author Date 45597 Re: Dunlap #3 Plane FrankSronce Mon 3/8/1999 45609 Re: Dunlap #3 Plane Ed_Balko@E... Mon 3/8/1999 45647 Re: Dunlap #3 Plane TomPrice@a... Tue 3/9/1999 ---- Start of Message 59152 (thread 25667) ---- From: FrankSronce Date: 1999-03-08 02:55:00 Subject: Re: Dunlap #3 Plane Frank, Dunlop was a Sears house name for tools made by other companies. Not as well made as Sargent's, Stanley's and others first line planes. Frank (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) Frank Filippone wrote: > > I read all these items about Stanley Tools, but rarely see comments about > Dunlap tools. Is Dunlap a well respected company? Were the tools of equal > or different quality to the Stanley? ---- Start of Message 59164 (thread 25667) ---- From: Ed_Balko@E... Date: 1999-03-08 15:56:00 Subject: Re: Dunlap #3 Plane Frank frankly replying to Frank wrote: "Dunlop was a Sears house name for tools made by other companies. Not as well made as Sargent's, Stanley's and others first line planes." I'm aware that this is a commonly held opinion but I think it may be somewhat misleading. It is certainly true that the Dunlops and Fulton planes offered by Sears in years past used a stamped steel iron adjusting yoke, a bent metal lateral adjustment lever, and omitted the frog adjusting screw . It is also tru e Sargent planes also used a similar lateral lever and had no frog adjustment screw. Most of the Dunlops I've seen at flea markets have the entire top surface of th e frog ground flat, providing a large area of support to the iron, much like the earlier Stanleys, Sargents, and Millers Falls planes. I believe one could make the case that a plane with a frog of this type is actually "better made" than the later Stanleys and Millers Falls tools where the frog supports the iron onl y on a limited number of raised ribs. One obviously doesn't get the cachet of a collectable plane but the ugly duckling Dunlop might actually be the superior user tool. FWIW Ed Balko Middletown, NJ Practicing heretic ---- Start of Message 59202 (thread 25667) ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 1999-03-09 00:36:00 Subject: Re: Dunlap #3 Plane Ed wrote: > Most of the Dunlops I've seen at flea markets have the entire top > surface of the frog ground flat, providing a large area of support to > the iron, much like the earlier Stanleys, Sargents, and Millers Falls > planes. I believe one could make the case that a plane with a frog of > this type is actually "better made" than the later Stanleys and Millers > Falls tools where the frog supports the iron only on a limited number of > raised ribs. > > One obviously doesn't get the cachet of a collectable plane but the ugly > duckling Dunlop might actually be the superior user tool. > >One obviously doesn't get the cachet of a collectable plane but the ugly >duckling Dunlop might actually be the superior user tool. I can't speak knowledgeably about the Sargent made Dunlap planes but some of the Dunlap planes I have seen were made by Millers Falls. While it is true that the upper surface of the frog on these is essentially the same as the 'best' Millers Falls planes of the time, the frog receivers and the bottoms of the frogs were not machined. I've got one in the basement I bought as a specimen and it has the lumpy cast surface on these two critical mating parts. As a result I think these planes are likely to be inferior in function to the better Millers Falls and Stanley planes of the same period. They really DID cut corners. You get what you pay for, TANSTAAFL and all that. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Brakes For Rust A Field Guide To Millers Falls Type 1 Planes is featured at The Galoot's Progress: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ++++ End of thread 25667 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25668 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59153 (thread 25668) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-03-08 03:32:00 Subject: Dunbar's chest-final report GGs-- A while back I reported on the construction phase of a 6-board blanket chest like the one featured in Mike Dunbar's cover article to the February '99 FWW, and took the opportunity to query the porch on hardware and finishes. This is the wrapup, with thanks for all who offered helpful suggestions. I've seen quite a few similar chests at antique outlets and shows, enough to know that there is considerable variation on the basic design of 6 planks plus "candle-box" till. As I laid it out it seemed like the till in the article was way big, at 8 1/2" wide and nearly as deep. I reduced it by about 1 1/2" each direction, and the proportions look right to me in the finished product. I understand that it is common in these chests to nail the back on without mounting it in a stop butt joint, so that the back protrudes, but I like the symmetry of doing the back the same as the front, flush with the legs. Similarly, I put the thumbnail molding on all four sides of the lid, including the rear edge. The other modification was to raise the bottom up 3/8" to install it in a groove on all four sides, not just the ends. That doesn't affect the looks, but closes up and strengthens the bottom. I had never seen ornate strap hinges like the ones Dunbar used, and when I called Ball and Ball, his supplier, I got a shock. His handforged hinges were $69.95 per pair, plus S&H. Besides the question of cost (I had spent exactly nothing for materials to that point), I convinced myself that such fancy hinges are overkill in a utilitarian object where the hinges show only when the box is open, anyhow. I mulled several alternatives, and eventually decided on reg'lar strap hinges from the hardware store, the kind with a butt plate on one side (to go into the top edge of the back of the chest), and a 4" triangular strap extending from the other side (to go along the underside of the top). They cost $3 for the pair. No, I did not put shiny zinc plated hinges on my faux antique chest. I filed off some machine marks around the edges, worked them over with a wire brush, and wiped them with some solution made for turning zinc black, sold for use in stained glass work. Did the same with the heads of the new, plated straight-slotted screws for the hinges and for the cleats under the ends of the lid. The experiment was successful. This stuff works great. It is Novacan brand, made in Canada, and the label says it contains selenious acid. Once the treated metal is rubbed with a cloth is very dark, but doesn't look painted. Someone asked a while back for a source of non-plated screws for use in repro and restoration work. While it's increasingly difficult to buy straight-slotted screws any more (most are Philips these days), I'll never have to look for non-plated. I'll just treat with Novacan Black Patina for Zinc to make old new screws. I also got some good suggestions for finish, mostly related to applying linseed oil mix and letting nature take its course. I finally went with orange shellac. I'll say it now, despite any disdain that might be directed my way for not beeing on the cutting edge of galootdom, especialy after Paddy's Order and various threads on flake mixing: I used that Zinsser stuff that comes in a can. And I'm very pleased with the results. This old recycled pine has a lot of character, and the shellac brings it out without covering it, while at the same time giving the overall finish a warm honey-brown glow that is just what I wanted to achieve. I put two coats on everything, lightly steel wooling between applications, and a third coat on the top of the lid. After it had cured a week or so I rubbed it all down with 0000 steel wool to cut the glossy gloss, and then rubbed on and hand buffed a final coat of paste wax. Twice already people have been over, see the addition to our furnishings, and begin to ask where we found one in such good shape, that it was beautiful, etc., and I'm standing there about to bust until SWMBO says "Tom made it," and I beam with pride of (hand) work well done. Tom Holloway ++++ End of thread 25668 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25669 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59155 (thread 25669) ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 1999-03-08 07:23:00 Subject: Selenous Acid In a message dated 3/7/99 7:38:49 PM, thh1@c... writes: << ... It is Novacan brand, made in Canada, and the label says it contains selenious acid ... >> This product is quite poisonous, but I'm sure the label contains the appropriate warnings. When used for it's intended purpose (turning unplated articles black) it does a good job. It requires very thorough rinsing, however, as the action of the selenous acid appears to continue for some time. When used to attempt to turn "chrome" plated articles black, all it succeeds in doing is removing all the chrome plating. Fairly rapidly, too. I consider it, therefore, to be a superior product for removing unwanted chrome plating, and less of a successful product for turning articles black. I have some "fine scale" model parts on which I tested selenous acid. The acid effect continued for weeks, until I finally mechanically removed the "residue". The parts were not ruined, but some of the fine detail was compromized. Selenous acid should not be applied to parts which contain recesses, fine grooves or details which cannot be completely mechanically cleaned. I am unaware of a chemical treatment which will "stop" the action of selenous acid, although surely there must be one. My $0.02 worth, of course. ---- Start of Message 59158 (thread 25669) ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1999-03-08 13:39:00 Subject: Re: Selenous Acid At 2:23 AM -0500 3/8/99, PeterH5322@a... wrote: >the action of the selenous acid >appears to continue for some time. I'll watch the hinges of my blanket chest, and if they rot away before my eyes, I'll report back. Seems to me that for that antique metal look, a *little bit* of rotting away might not be a problem. The label on the bottle says: "Contains selenious acid. Avoid contact with eyes and prolonged contact with skin. If swallowed, induce vomiting and call physician. In case of contact, flush with water." No skull and crossbones. I'm thinking this product is a fairly dilute solution, but what do I know--the label does not say. It has very little smell, and is a light blue in the bottle. I applied it with a cotton swab (Q-tip [tm]) avoiding contact with my skin. The darkening action is immediate. I let the treated metal dry in the air, then rubbed it with a piece of soft cloth. There is a trace of dark residue on the cloth, and the metal then has a somewhat glossy dark (near black) surface. It is now covered with two coats of shellac. I'll be careful. Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 59169 (thread 25669) ---- From: Brandon Ford Date: 1999-03-08 16:41:00 Subject: re: Selenous Acid Friends, Tom reports on the successful completion of a project! Hinges for said project were treated with selenous acid to turn them black. While I've never used selenous acid, I have had success in turning steel and plated hardware black by burning them in a pile of wood shavings (I seem to have a lot of those theses days) and rubbing boiled linseed oil on them. I got this from a Roy Underhill (book or show, I can't remember). This works well, looks good, uses stuff at hand, isn't poisonous, and seems to retard rust as well. Brandon Ford, Aberdeen, Washington who, with Larry, is rejoicing over a two-day break in our four-month rain storm. ++++ End of thread 25669 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25670 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59161 (thread 25670) ---- From: "Kelly Cox" Date: 1999-03-08 14:46:00 Subject: Patent question: interesting clamp GG's; Last fall I picked up an interesting iron clamp at a yard sale (I believe it was the same sale where I got my Langdon miter box & saw for $10, you've just been drive-by gloated!). The clamp is a lot like the modern bar clamp; it has an I-shaped beam, with a sliding section that is pretty straightforward. The fixed end has a moveable rod, a lot like the threaded jaw on a bar clamp, but this one isn't threaded, it slides through a hole in the fixed jaw. One the end is a rotating handle which captures the sliding rod in a cam-shaped edge. So when the handle is rotated, the sliding rod moves. It is a really useful little clamp (only about 18" long) for quick set-ups. I keep it on my bench as my first choice for quickly clamping something to the edge of the bench. It has a patent date, Feb 8 '81, cast into the cam-shaped handle. Anybody with access to a patent database? I'd like to find out who made this clamp. What were the claims of the patent? Thanks! Kelly Cox Mad City, WI ---- Start of Message 59165 (thread 25670) ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1999-03-08 16:07:00 Subject: Re: Patent question: interesting clamp On Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:46:17 -0600 "Kelly Cox" writes: >GG's; > [snip Kelly koming akross klamp] > >It has a patent date, Feb 8 '81, cast into the cam-shaped handle. >Anybody with access to a patent database? I'd like to find out who made this clamp. That would be Alma M. Colt of Batavia, N.Y. Patent #237431 > What were the claims of the patent? Pretty much beats the heck out of me. The O.G. entry is one of those "as shown and described" things. To get a copy see the fine folks at: http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/opr/ptcs/index.html Regards, Steve ++++ End of thread 25670 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25671 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59162 (thread 25671) ---- From: ralph.brendler@a... (Ralph Brendler) Date: 1999-03-08 15:29:00 Subject: Re: Mortise gauge ID and ravages of inflation (I think this is sort of a gloat) John Lederer writes: >One item is a well used rosewood and brass mortise gauge-- the kind where turning a screw on the end moves one of the points on a slide. I assumed it was a Stanley because the brass wear plate looks like what I have seen on Stanley's. But,I can't find Stanley anywhere on it, and when I got it home I discovered the remnants of a scale that appears to be metric rather than inch though it is dim. There is a bit of the patent date, "Patented Oct" (my son thinks the rest is "20, 1872", but it is invisible to my eyes). Could this possibly be be a Stanley 77M? The patent date is October 22, 1872. This patent covers the captive slider design used on the #77, as well as the brass shoe used to protect the arm from the locking screw. Most folks believe it also covers the "moustache" wear plate, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't (I have a couple of pieces that have the moustache, but no place for a shoe). I really doubt if your scale is metric, given the patent mark (especially if the mark is weak, it can be tough to distinguish one from the other). Stanley produced a handful of metric gages in the 30s to 50s, which is some 40 years after they stopped marking the gages with the 1872 patent. Sorry for the bad news... ;-) ralph (who unfortunately got off cheap at the Witte auction) ---- Start of Message 59163 (thread 25671) ---- From: "John H. Lederer" Date: 1999-03-08 15:49:00 Subject: Re: Mortise gauge ID and ravages of inflation (I think this is sort of a gloat) Ralph Brendler wrote: I really doubt if your scale is metric, given the patent mark (especially if > the mark is weak, it can be tough to distinguish one from the other). > Stanley produced a handful of metric gages in the 30s to 50s, which is some > 40 years after they stopped marking the gages with the 1872 patent. Sorry > for the bad news... ;-) > Thanks. Whether it was metric or not was a source of some discussion and repeated matching of rulers against the scale last night. One son who inisted it was just a worn inch scale with a lot of additional lines from use will feel vindicated. It is a pretty gauge and I am pleased to have it. ++++ End of thread 25671 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25672 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59166 (thread 25672) ---- From: "John Black" Date: 1999-03-08 16:00:00 Subject: WTB: Ogee Panel Raiser Plane Hi GG's, Haven't been around to much lately; a new job is consuming a lot of my time. But, I manage to to keep one eye on the porch... Anyway, I'm going to start soon to build some raised panel doors and would like to find a hand plane (both matching right and left hand if possible) to make the raised panles for the doors. I'm more interested in finding an Ogee type design rather than a flat design, but would be willing to listen to any offers. Oh and I have been rebuilding my shop, I hope to have a few pictures our to view within the next month or so. Best Regards, John John J Black 23294 Patterson Clinton Township, MI 48036-1234 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ++++ End of thread 25672 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25673 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59167 (thread 25673) ---- From: "George Langford, Sc.D." Date: 1999-03-08 19:12:00 Subject: Re: OSHA Alert ! Unusual plane defect ! mebbe from an estate sale ... Hallo squeamish Galoots ! For those who want to be aware of all types of plane defects: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=74558438 This plane apparently foams at the mouth and may have done in its previous owner ... With apologies to anyone who thinks he's discovered the World's Cheapest No.75 ... Best regards, George Langford amenex@e... ---- Start of Message 59189 (thread 25673) ---- From: "Clarke Green" Date: 1999-03-09 21:39:00 Subject: Re: OSHA Alert ! Unusual plane defect ! mebbe from an estate sale ... Y'know somebody really needs to save these. CAG -----> >For those who want to be aware of all types of plane defects: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=74558438 > >This plane apparently foams at the mouth and may have done in >its previous owner ... > ++++ End of thread 25673 ++++ ++++ Start of thread 25674 ++++ ---- Start of Message 59168 (thread 25674) ---- From: "Haney, Kevin (CIT)" Date: 1999-03-08 16:30:00 Subject: PATINA and misc. questions Just wanted to let you guys know that I will have no FS list this month until after PATINA next weekend. I'm too busy packing up and getting ready! Look fo r the guy standing in back of a silver Chevy Lumina out in the parking lot, beginning at around 7 am (and freezing to death, if past experience is any indication). Ask me about my Galoot discount! And if the weather is bad I'll have a great FS list next week! A couple of questions. I picked up a Stanley #72 mortise gauge this weekend. Both Walter and Brendler's web site say this had wood thumbscrews. Mine has brass. It looks like a later model. Is this common? It also has two shoes wit h the notch for the pin, which Brendler says means they are scavenged, but it would seem unlikely for both of them to be non-original. Also, I picked up a low-angle block plane on ebay. It is unmarked and has a corrugated bottom, which I've never seen before. I was thinking it was craftsman made since the casting was rough, but then I found an identical one i n the antique mall yesterday. It has a 9 1/2-style lever cap and the blades are unusual in that the top semi-circular edge is off center. Anyone know anything about these? Kevin Haney ---- Start of Message 59170 (thread 25674) ---- From: ralph.brendler@a... (Ralph Brendler) Date: 1999-03-08 16:54:00 Subject: Re: PATINA and misc. questions >A couple of questions. I picked up a Stanley #72 mortise gauge this weekend. >Both Walter and Brendler's web site say this had wood thumbscrews. Mine has >brass. It looks like a later model. Is this common? The last models of these (1940s and 50s) had brass screws/shoes. They're sort of amalgams of the #71 and #72-- brass screws, no wear plating. > It also has two shoes with >the notch for the pin, which Brendler says means they are scavenged, but it >would seem unlikely for both of them to be non-original. Again, you will find later models like this. The different shoe styles disappeared as the product line thinned out-- by about 1940, everything used the same notched shoe. Early on, Stanley used 3 distinct styles of shoes: One with no notch (used on models with no need for point clearance), one with no notch and a curved bottom for the #85-1/2, and the standard one with a notch used on everything else. These were also made in several lengths to accomodate various thicknesses of heads (the #74/#80 in particular used a weird shoe to accomodate the extra thickness of the face plate). As time wore on, however, Stanley standardized their product line such that all gages used the same shoe. ralph ---- Start of Message 59174 (thread 25674) ---- From: Steve_Bussell@i... Date: 1999-03-09 01:03:00 Subject: Re: PATINA and misc. questions Kevin, I have a #72 exactly as you describe. Brass screws and notched shoes. According to Ralphs' response, that would put these gauges in the '40s or '50s. Steve snip..... A couple of questions. I picked up a Stanley #72 mortise gauge this weekend. Both Walter and Brendler's web site say this had wood thumbscrews. Mine has brass. It looks like a later model. Is this common? It also has two shoes with the notch for the pin, which Brendler says means they are scavenged, but it would seem unlikely for both of them to be non-original. snip.