---- Start of Message 132501 ---- From: "Jordan, Wolfgang" Date: 2004-04-23 08:46:52 Subject: RE: Your Favorite Method of Cleaning Wood Handles? Bill, I had the same problem with wooden planes and asked for advice here on = the list back in July 2000. The following discussion revealed that = darkening is due to the application of BLO and that there are better = ways to clean old wood. I saved this thread and put in on my site: http://www.holzwerken.de/museum/links/plancln.phtml Wolfgang in Munich/Germany >-----Original Message----- >From: Bill Rittner [mailto:wcrittner@c...]=20 >Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 1:16 AM >Subject: Your Favorite Mrthod of Cleaning Wood Handles? > >My favorite method of cleaning wood tool handles is a scrubbing with = green >or maroon Scotchbrite pad wet with mineral spirits and wiping with a = clean >rag also wet with mineral spirits. When dry I wipe on a soaking coat a >boiled linseed oil mixed 50/50 with mineral spirits. Let this soak, = wipe off >the excess. Allow to dry and add a coat of paste wax. > >The only problem I have with this method is that sometimes it will = darken >the wood dramatically. I would like to avoid this darkening problem. ---- Start of Message 132502 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-04-23 09:01:31 Subject: Hobbies A1 fretsaw colours? Probably one for the Empire dwellers amongst us, but can anyone tell me the original colopurs of the above machine=3F John Crums post about treadle fretsaws reminded me that last weekend I looked at my pet, (re-belted courtesy of Listmom Ralph ) and thought to myself that it was time to move on from purely a working functional item to restoring the correct colours - and who would know but the porchsters=3F So - I know they went out to the Empire, and fretsawing was used as therapy for recuperating soldiers after the Great War. But photos were all black and white then. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 132503 ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-04-23 07:03:56 Subject: Re: Architectural Moldings ? > Steve tore himself away from his bradells to point us to: > >> Architectural Treasures of Early America, especially the reprint of >> "The Builder's Companion and Workman's General Assistant: >> Demonstrating, After the most easy and practical Method, All The >> PRINCIPALS OF ARCHITECTURE, From The Plan to the Ornamental Finish..." >> How's that for a title? > > Well, that title is quite a mouthful, and when I tried to find a copy > on the web, I almost choked on my mouthful - the only copy I could > find was $2500 !! Australian dollars, but that's still real money. > That was for an original from the 1700's. I wasn't able to track down > the reprint - which of the 16 volumes of Architectural Treasures > has it? I had no idea those books are worth that much. As much as I would like to own one or more, I only borrowed it from the local library and photocopied a few pages. I'm sure it is the one on Delaware. The reprint from Pain might be in each of them, but I have no evidence of that, just suspicion. Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 132504 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-04-23 08:14:06 Subject: Re: Scraper Plane Plans > it. Here's a link to a set of free plans and instructions for > making an adjustable scraper plane. You don't have to be scraper > plane challenged, anymore. Thanks, John. This is a neat project. Louis Michaud also sent me a set of plans he drew for another sort of wood scraper plane. > I've mentioned it a few times but I don't know if the post made > it to the list but on Jim Belushi's prime time show "According to > Jim" the last few weeks there has been a scraper plane that just I've never watched this show but the other night I was clicking around and when I came past this show I caught a glimpse of a plane tote in the background. I sat for 10 minutes hoping that I'd get to see what it was attached to. During that time I concluded that I must be a galoot :-) -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132505 ---- From: brian_welch@h... Date: 2004-04-23 08:37:55 Subject: Re: Russell Jennings Bit Set Box GAM wrote: "And if you think the RJ bit boxes are cool, you're in for a treat when you ogle the CEJ catalogue, with its astounding variety of fitted and generic toolboxes." The coolest box for auger bits that I have seen is the John Hitch patented "roll top desk" style box for auger bits: http://www.datamp.org/displayPatent.php?number=470567&type=UT There's one for sale here: http://www.patented-antiques.com/Backpages/T-F-S/misc%20planes/bitroll.htm Looks like it would be a fun thing to try to make. Brian Welch stuck in Cambridge instead of in Nashua almost glad it is raining ---- Start of Message 132506 ---- From: brian_welch@h... Date: 2004-04-23 09:00:01 Subject: Re: Your Favorite Mrthod of Cleaning Wood Handles? GGs I have stopped using linseed oil on handles after I noticed last summer that soon after applying a mixture of mineral spirits and BLO (and maybe a little varnish--this was a leftover finish for a table that I had sitting in a jar and I couldn't remember exactly what was in it, but definitely BLO) mold started growing on the wood handles. This happened to a few saws and a few chisels. Now granted, my shop is in my cellar in an 1886 house with a fieldstone foundation and a semi-dirt floor, so it is pretty humid in the summer. But mold was only growing in a few places--my newly BLO-refinished handles. So I checked out the archives, and there it was. Gary Roberts had warned years ago that: linseed oil "is a wonderful growth medium for molds. And this goes for all vegetable based oils. Even if there is not visually apparent mold growth, there may be some present at the microscopic levels. If you think about it, mold needs moisture, minimal (or even the absence of) light and a growth medium." So if mositure is a problem in your tool storage area, I would stick to the wax alone and skip the BLO. Brian Welch Worcester, MA ---- Start of Message 132507 ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-04-23 13:21:07 Subject: re: Your Favorite Mrthod of Cleaning Wood Handles? For paint and other stubborn stuff, a bit of sanding, only on the the stubborn stuff with 320 or higher grit. Never sand away any wood cause that's where the previous owner's skills were left in the tool (I need all the help I can get). Then a wipe down with mineral spirits. I've found that most of the totes on my older tools have either a shellac or other alcohol soluble finish, so a rag dampened with a bit of denatured alcohol refurbishes any finish still in place. I will sometimes add a bit of blonde shellac as an added layer of protection. Since I do this in a French Polish type application, a drop or two of BLO gets added to the rubber, and the tote keeps whatever of that that it wants. Jerry ---- Start of Message 132508 ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-04-23 13:34:22 Subject: FWW Bevel Article Got my new FWW mag a couple days ago and almost blew it for the sliding bevel collectors/Galoots. They have an article on sliding bevels in which they tested numerous modern marvels from the el cheapo $5.00 ones up to the around $100 models with the fancy names on their labels. Seems for several tens of U.S. Dollars you can buy at least one Japanese remake of a Stanley #18 or one of several other models of varying useability. No mention was made of tracking down old ones which were designed and made with the several times a day users in mind, and I almost got up and fired off an e-mail to them to advise them of their omission. But for once, I paused and thunk on it a bit. Probably wouldn't make a hill of beans to them since not many old tool dealers buy adds in their mags, and if it did it might send more of those folks with too much money out into the old tool market driving up the price on our toys, uh, er tools. So, let em eat cake, or buy new ones that, according to the article, didn't always work as well as the high dollar prices on some might lead one to believe. Jerry ---- Start of Message 132509 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-04-23 10:02:30 Subject: Re: Russell Jennings Bit Set Box Hi Greg & All, Greg questions bits marked only Russell Jennings - no Mg. Co. The DAT says that such a marking (with either the full Russell or only an initial) is the norm and that ones with an added "Mfg. Co." are rare. But it makes no distinctions re when they wre marked which way. Some also have an "& Co." Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132510 ---- From: Al Perreault Date: 2004-04-23 10:10:08 Subject: Re: FWW Bevel Article Jerry, Remember, those old tools don't work, all rusty and dirty and all, the new ones are always much better. And those old hand saws, who needs 'em. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, MA Who is at work, in Methuen, MA, missing out on LFOD, which is only about a 30 minute drive away. Thank the Tool Gods that it's raining buckets. All I need now is Steve Brackett to write in about the mint Parson's braces he picked up for nil, or how he found another anvil on the side of the road. >Probably wouldn't make a hill of beans to them since not many old >tool >dealers buy adds in their mags, and if it did it might send >more of >those folks with too much money out into the old tool >market driving >up the price on our toys, uh, er tools. So, let em >eat cake, or buy >new ones that, according to the article, didn't >always work as well as >the high dollar prices on some might lead >one to believe. > > Jerry ---- Start of Message 132511 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-04-23 10:10:55 Subject: Re: Your Favorite Method of Cleaning Wood Handles? Hi Bill & Wolfgang & All, OK, it's different strokes for different folks time here. I used BLO on a good many different types of tools for a good many years. One of the reasons was BECAUSE it commonly darkened the wood some and I generally preferred such darker wood to a washed out raw white look.The main exceptions were boxwood and satinwood rules and other tools. BLO didn't darken them but did leave them looking a bit yucky; wax was much better on them and I sometimes topped the BLO on other tools with some wax too. Never had a mold problem except in one damp corner of my display room where mold grew on everything. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132512 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-04-23 10:17:09 Subject: Re: A new bent knife Hi Jim & All, When I first saw Jim's mention of a "bent knife", the mental picture I came up with was of a "crooked knife". Jim's picture changed that image, but I'm thinking that since Jim has some file steel left over for something else, maybe he should think about making a crooked knife for use in his carving projects and such? Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132513 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-04-23 07:28:48 Subject: Re: A new bent knife The cant file that is as yet untouched is next on the list, and I do intend to make at least one crooked knife. I haven't solved the problem of the knife edge angle yet. The angle formed by the edge of the file is quite a bit greater than that needed for a knife. Maybe it just needs a deeper hollow grind. I will find out. On Friday, April 23, 2004, at 07:17 AM, Bob Nelson wrote: > Hi Jim & All, > > When I first saw Jim's mention of a "bent knife", the mental picture I > came up with was of a "crooked knife". Jim's picture changed that > image, > but I'm thinking that since Jim has some file steel left over for > something else, maybe he should think about making a crooked knife for > use in his carving projects and such? > > Best Wishes, > Bob > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132514 ---- From: "Mike Tillson" Date: 2004-04-23 10:44:34 Subject: RE: A new bent knife >Jim Thompson wrote: >.....I haven't solved the problem of the knife edge angle yet. The angle >formed by the edge of the file is quite a bit greater than that needed >for a knife. Maybe it just needs a deeper hollow grind. I will find >out. I tried to make a couple of bent knives for spoon carving and I had quite a bit of trouble with this. The knives would work just fine on a piece of flat stock, but when you want to do the bottom of a spool bowl, you need quite a bit of relief behind the cutting edge to make it work. On one knife, by the time I had all the angles right, I had ground away so much stock that the blade was actually fragile, and eventually broke. Such excercises are always a good learning experience though. I just wish I could get back to making a few more knives before I forget how to do it correctly! Mike Tillson In rainy upstate NY ---- Start of Message 132515 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-04-23 15:56:19 Subject: WTB or drawings of - a timber scribe Anyone have a spare - or a measured diagram=3F One of those scribes with which framers mark their timbers - with the tight little curvy end that peels out a little shaving. =3F Trade or cash available. . --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 132516 ---- From: "Matt Mulka" Date: 2004-04-23 11:28:49 Subject: Plow Plane Help Esteemed galoots who have a lot more experience than I do, I have a question about my new Ohio plow plane (with 8 irons, although not a gloatable price). The gap between the fence and the skate is not parallel. At the bottom, it's about 1/4" and at the top it's almost 3/8". Is this a problem, or are these things designed so that only the bottom of the fence rides against the wood? Not sure how evident the change is in the photo. http://home.comcast.net/~matt_mulka/plow1.jpg Thanks in advance, Matt ---- Start of Message 132517 ---- From: "dcohen" Date: 2004-04-24 12:25:51 Subject: Re: Your Favorite Mrthod of Cleaning Wood Handles? Here is the recipe given to me several months ago when I purchased an H & R half-set. The owner had used it on the planes, and also demonstrated using it on a few other pieces lying around. It seemed to work very well without destroying the patina. 200ml Turps 100ml Meth 150ml Vinegar 25 ml mild detergent 10ml Ammonia (5% solution) 25ml Brasso Regards from Perth Derek Cohen ---- Start of Message 132518 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-04-23 12:39:40 Subject: Re: FWW Bevel Article > was made of tracking down old ones which were designed and made > with the several times a day users in mind, and I almost got up > and fired off an e-mail to them to advise them of their omission. > But for once, I paused and thunk on it a bit. Probably wouldn't The world is half-empty to some and half-full to others. FWW do articles on hand tools. They even show them in use sometimes. > make a hill of beans to them since not many old tool dealers buy > adds in their mags, and if it did it might send more of those If it had anything to do with this they'd be doing articles on table saws, lathes, and other electron-burners, not sliding bevels :-) -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132519 ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-04-23 09:45:28 Subject: Re: Your Favorite Mrthod of Cleaning Wood Handles? dcohen wrote: > Here is the recipe given to me several months ago when I purchased an H & R > half-set. The owner had used it on the planes, and also demonstrated using > it on a few other pieces lying around. It seemed to work very well without > destroying the patina. > > 200ml Turps > 100ml Meth > 150ml Vinegar > 25 ml mild detergent > 10ml Ammonia (5% solution) > 25ml Brasso For us mono-linguists (aka "Americans"), can someone translate "turps" and "meth" for me please? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ---- Start of Message 132520 ---- From: Bill Kasper Date: 2004-04-23 09:59:08 Subject: Re: Your Favorite Mrthod of Cleaning Wood Handles? turpentine methylated spirits (aka, iirc, denatured alcohol) there was large discussion of this not six months ago. someone even=20 put up a translatory table, but i can't seem to find my link to it. anyone? bill felton, ca just say i's 'murican, too. On Apr 23, 2004, at 9:45 AM, Michael Campbell wrote: > dcohen wrote: >> Here is the recipe given to me several months ago when I purchased > an H & R >> half-set. The owner had used it on the planes, and also > demonstrated using >> it on a few other pieces lying around. It seemed to work very well > without >> destroying the patina. >> >> 200ml Turps >> 100ml Meth >> 150ml Vinegar >> 25 ml mild detergent >> 10ml Ammonia (5% solution) >> 25ml Brasso > > For us mono-linguists (aka "Americans"), can someone translate > "turps" and "meth" for me please? > > > =09 > =09 > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25=A2 > http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=3Doldtools > ---- Start of Message 132521 ---- From: "Gary P. Laroff" Date: 2004-04-23 10:05:43 Subject: RE: Your Favorite Mrthod of Cleaning Wood Handles? Michael Campbell wrote: > dcohen wrote: > > Here is the recipe given to me several months ago when I purchased > an H & R > > half-set. The owner had used it on the planes, and also > demonstrated using > > it on a few other pieces lying around. It seemed to work very well > without > > destroying the patina. > > > > 200ml Turps > > 100ml Meth > > 150ml Vinegar > > 25 ml mild detergent > > 10ml Ammonia (5% solution) > > 25ml Brasso > > For us mono-linguists (aka "Americans"), can someone translate > "turps" and "meth" for me please? > Turps is Turpentine, a wonderfully smelly tree-based solvent favored by artists who use oil paints. Meth is Methanol or Methyl Alcohol, probably best known as Wood Alcohol to the Home Borg set. Anyway, chemically it is CH3OH. I'm still not sure why I would want to add Brasso, which is for metals and might leave a white residue. Hope that helps. Gary Laroff Portland, Oregon ---- Start of Message 132522 ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-04-23 17:43:14 Subject: Re: FWW Bevel Article Larry said, "The world is half-empty to some and half-full to others. FWW do articles on hand tools. They even show them in use sometimes." Yep, and and they occassionally have articles on how to use them, too. I used to subscribe to about a half dozen different WW mags. Now I subscribe to two, one of which is FWW because they do have good articles on tail-less tools and others of interest to me. And in response to my having said, > make a hill of beans to them since not many old tool dealers buy adds > in their mags, and if it did it might send more of those he further related, "If it had anything to do with this they'd be doing articles on table saws, lathes, and other electron-burners, not sliding bevels :-)" They do articles on those also, and, any way you cut it, part of their job is to sell stuff that their advertisers make. And some of their advertiseres make (or at least put their label on them) some the sliding bevels they tested. All in all, it was a pretty good article bringing to point many of the issues one should investigate when searching out a sliding bevel. It also pointed out a bit of the fruitlessness (I guess that's a word) in trying to improve on the overall basic design of the tool as the one manufacturer who made a real pretty one with some geometric variation to the fence was brought to task over the inability to flip the thing over to mark the opposite angle needed as in the case of marking dovetails because the triangular fence on that side was not a mate to the rectangular one opposite. That one would, however, have gotten my vote for "prettiest" if that was one of the awards available. ;-) Like I said, all in all a good article and I am glad, after consideration, that they didn't mention old ones in the second or fifth hand market as alternatives to shopping for a new one. I think I've got enough of those, between the Stanley #18s and Disston Look-a-likes and other wingnut/lever nut wood handled ones, but I'm sure there are some budding Galoots out there who will be searching the rust stores et al for some bargains in the future and the demand created by us is sufficient to keep a fair value on these and other old tools. Jerry ---- Start of Message 132523 ---- From: gmcdavid@c... Date: 2004-04-23 18:13:29 Subject: Re: Reminder: MWTCA Area A Cheap Meet on Saturday, April 24 Pete Bergstrom wrote: > This is in Hastings, MN, just a few miles SE of the Twin Cities. I just found out I might be able to get to it. Is there more precise information about location and time? I could not find anything on the MWTCA website. Thanks, Glenn McDavid, near St. Paul, Minnesota gmcdavid@c... http://www.winternet.com/~gmcdavid ---- Start of Message 132524 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-04-23 14:39:33 Subject: need a new slope Hello GG's, I've got a decent amount of planes of all types, chisels, drawknives, panel saws, backsaws, braces, drills, bits, mallets, gauges, gadgets and widgets. I'm getting the oldtools itch and I'm having trouble finding something that I want/need to buy. Somebody please grease a new slope aaaah!!! aaaahhhh!! aaaahhhhhh!!! aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!! Soooo, What's a good model of the Langdon mitre box, and where do I get one? Who's a good maker of post drills? Are there other models of the Yankee drill besides the 1555 that have two speeds and ratchet? I want to start turning...what do I do for a lathe and turning tools. Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 132525 ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-04-23 11:52:22 Subject: Re: Reminder: MWTCA Area A Cheap Meet on Saturday, April 24 Glenn wants to know where the Hastings, MN, MWTCA meeting is Saturday (tomorrow!!). It is at the Hastings Armory, and I think that the address is 3050 Highway 316, Hastings, MN (according to a quick search) and I was going to post a link to the Yahoo map but it was so long it was scary, and I don't have a shortcut to the tiny URL thing handy, so a search on Yahoo should bring up the same map that I found. It is at the south end of Hastings, and my recollection is that the red star showing the location on the Hastings map on Yahoo is actually across the road from the real location. It is a typical brick armory building, and we use the big overhead door at the back of the building, must be the east side of the building. Hope to see Glenn and maybe some other new faces there. ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ---- Start of Message 132526 ---- From: Thomas Conroy Date: 2004-04-23 12:16:02 Subject: Re: Your Favorite Mrthod of Cleaning Wood Handles? On my planes (mostly type 10 bought in medium-bad condition) I prefer to go over the surface with rubbing alcohol and steel wool; this reamalgamates and freshens up the original shellac as well as cleaning. Then I may pad on a layer or two of 1-pound cut. If the handle is broken or needs regluing, if I have to remake the top end, or if I open it out to fit my hand a bit better (put down those torches and garlic, please) I may sand with 1" square bits of abrasive paper, up to 600-grit, before padding on shellac. Its the feel I'm after, not the look. Now you can mock me and put me in a pillory and throw rotten eggs and dead cats as a lesson for other, more secretive, savages. With chisels, most of mine were at least lacking leather washers and many had chunks broken off. I prefer to rebuild the old handle rather than make a new one, so I will plane down or chisel broken surfaces and glue on new wood, glue on washers, then carve down to size and shape. At the last step I hand sand from 80 to 600 on the new wood, and this usually involves sanding the old wood as well. Some of my chisels have handles that were sound but where the original finish was such a god-awful ugly varnish that I just scraped and sanded it off. After this, whatever I have done, I soak--- and I mean immerse--- the handle in BLO/mineral spirits for at least two hours and sometimes overnight.It darkens, but I like the darkening. From time to time (once or twice a year, maybe) I'll rub on a new coat of BLO and then rub it off again. I haven't had any mold problem, but my town is rarely wet and warm at the same time. The general rule of thumb is to go from gentlest to roughest: rub with just water and rough cloth, then a bit of dtergent in the water, then alcohol, then alcohol with steel wool, then rougher if you must. I prefer to do less as a matter of laziness, but, as a simple matter of experience, I have rarely found that just water or just alcohol gives me a handle I want to touch; either it needs nothing or lots. Great question, Bill. Tom Conroy Berkeley __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ---- Start of Message 132527 ---- From: "Daniel E.L. Yurwit" Date: 2004-04-23 17:22:33 Subject: MF miter box choices Wise Ones, Jonathan's miter box question struck a chord. I'm suffering from an embarrassment of riches and a shortage of space. Trying to decide between two miter boxes I own, and wondering if some of you might have experience to share with both Jonathan and me. The one I've been using for years and love is a MF Langdon Acme Size 2 No. 1071A. Bed is 19 1/2" x 4 1/2" and the saw is a Disston with a blade 24" at the teeth and 4" to the spine. The box has 2 stock guides , which are a very nice feature, but has no length stop for repetitive cuts. I've recently acquired a MF All Steel Miter Box (Model 306C or 3060---plate is damaged at that spot). The bed is 20" x 4 1/2", and the saw is a monstrous Disston made for MF, with 27" of teeth, and a depth of 6" to the spine. There are two length stops on this one, but no stock guide feature. Both are in great condition and work beautifully and accurately. I just don't know if "size really does matter," (but I hope not,) and if I'll miss the stock guides if I switch to the steel box with the bigger saw. The "all steel" was supposed to make the box lighter to transport, but they are both still hernia-inducers. The Langdon has nice bearings on which the saw rides, but the "All Steel" has brass guides which track very smoothly also. Other than enhanced depth of cut capacity, is there any reason to switch? Nice to have choices. Thanks for the input. Dan, obsessing in NJ ---- Start of Message 132528 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-04-23 17:56:05 Subject: Bevel (Bezel) Article Re: the FWW article on such GG: I laid in bed last night and read that article and immediately composed the letter tot he author that i will never send: Dearest author: The Stanley clone with the lever is the (IMHO) the near perfect bevel gauge. What you missed is that the bolt that the lever is attached to has a hex shoulder that can be rotated 1/6 of turn at a time in its hex shaped hole to arrive at the correct setting to keep the lever out of the way. This tool is a one-handed tool and is the handiest type I have in my toolbox. As far as the Starrett being the best because it is small, what is wrong with owning a 6" version with the lever on it. I have 6", 8", 10", 12", and 14" versions and find a use for all of them. This tool may be the only tool that ANYBODY can find in near perfect condition for $5 at a flea market or garage sale. Ed Minch ( WTOMC) that feels better Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 132529 ---- From: David W Tardiff Date: 2004-04-23 18:19:53 Subject: Re: FWW Bevel Article Jerry Palmer wrote: > > Like I said, all in all a good article and I am glad, after > consideration, that they didn't mention old ones in the second or > fifth hand market as alternatives to shopping for a new one. I think > I've got enough of those, between the Stanley #18s and Disston > Look-a-likes and other wingnut/lever nut wood handled ones, but I'm > sure there are some budding Galoots out there who will be searching > the rust stores et al for some bargains in the future and the demand > created by us is sufficient to keep a fair value on these and other > old tools. > I noticed that they didn't mention Pat Leach's copy of one of the better designs....is that still available? I'll have to ask him this weekend. I've got one, and it's handsome AND works very well, and avoids all the pitfalls mentioned. While the body of the article mentions that the fancy brass one couldn't be tightened by the burliest tester, the blurb next to the picture says "very good lock" - huh? They complain about the lever model ending up with the lever past the body. Do you suppose they know how to fix that? On my old ones like this, the opposite end of that bolt is a hex-shanked carriage head. All you have to do is pull it out and rotate it 60 degrees...and try again, so the lever is on the body when tight. Isn't that common knowledge? I wonder what bevels will be marked at tomorrow at LFOD..... ---- Start of Message 132530 ---- From: Scott Murman Date: 2004-04-23 15:25:19 Subject: low-angle bench planes nearly everyone who has tried one of these (not myself unfortunately) raves about it. i'm wondering what they're being used for. i have smoothers in various pitch, and smaller low-angle cutters for end grain, so where would i use something like a low-angle jack? do the beefy low-angle designs just do it better than the others? is it just because they can do most things fairly well so pros don't need to switch tools as often? enquiring minds with a sudden tool windfall want to know. -SM- RWC, CA not that i plan on seeing my shoppe, much less making something, ever again. i fail to see how that would be cause to stop accumulating tools. ---- Start of Message 132531 ---- From: Kirk Eppler Date: 2004-04-23 15:53:47 Subject: Re: low-angle bench planes I'm a private raver. Got one (LV smoother ) for Christmas, and have loved it. I can arrange a loan sometime if you wanna meet somewhere on your side of the hill. I used mine to make a window sill, and it seemed to work better out of the box than my well tuned #4. Took big thick curls, then lightened up to do some wispy shavings, with minimal effort on my part to adjust or to push. I've used it on QSWO, and it doesn;t do as good a job as my HA Knight smoother, but a pretty good job with minimal tearout. I tried it on end grain, and it beat my best 60 1/2 block as well. As a multi purpose tool, its off to a good start. It'll never replace my Knight, scraper plane, scrub or jointer, but for that in between stuff, its looking pretty good Scott Murman asked for the low down on low angles bench planes: > i'm wondering what they're being used for. i have smoothers in various > pitch, and smaller low-angle cutters for end > grain, so where would i use something like a low-angle jack? do the > beefy low-angle designs just do it better than the others? is it just > because they can do most things fairly well so pros don't need to switch > tools as often? enquiring minds with a sudden tool windfall want to > know. > -- Kirk Eppler in across the hill from Scott in Half Moon Bay, CA Eppler.Kirk@g... ---- Start of Message 132532 ---- From: "P J McBride" Date: 2004-04-24 09:14:31 Subject: RE: Bevel (Bezel) Article Ed, and GG's <> Interesting letter not sent to FWW... The one I composed in my head about 2 years ago was because in that edition of their mag almost every picture in every article had a Lie Nielsen product that was on the bench, on the shelf behind, or in the hands of the author. This has slowed down a bit recently, but still annoys me...subliminal advertising...(maybe I'm overreacting). I don't think they are anti handtool at all...just strongly for their advertisers. Regards, Peter In Melbourne, Australia, where web feet are needed again... ---- Start of Message 132533 ---- From: Steve and Dianne Noe Date: 2004-04-23 18:35:50 Subject: Re: need a new slope on 4/23/04 1:39 PM, Jonathan Peck at jpeck@m... wrote: > Hello GG's, >=20 > I've got a decent amount of planes of all types, chisels, > drawknives, panel saws, backsaws, braces, drills, bits, mallets, > gauges, gadgets and widgets. I'm getting the oldtools itch and I'm > having trouble finding something that I want/need to buy. >=20 > Somebody please grease a new slope Woodies: do you have a set, even a harlequin, of hollows and rounds? Howsabout coffin-bodied versus razee smoothers? Moulders? Matchplanes? Gimlets: See Tony Seo for details. Steve Noe, in Indianapolis dandsnoe@m... Juicy red meat is not bad for you... Fuzzy green meat, now THAT=B9S bad for you ---- Start of Message 132534 ---- From: Christopher Swingley Date: 2004-04-23 15:57:54 Subject: Re: low-angle bench planes Scott, * Scott Murman [2004-Apr-23 14:25 AKDT]: > nearly everyone who has tried one of these (not myself unfortunately) > raves about it. i'm wondering what they're being used for. i have > smoothers in various pitch, and smaller low-angle cutters for end > grain, so where would i use something like a low-angle jack? I find my L/N version works better on end grain than my 60 1/2, at least when the end is large enough to handle a big plane. I think the ergonomics of the bench plane style, and the greater mass helps in end grain situations. I haven't found it to be a better plane in any other situation that some people mention. It might actually be a good first plane for someone just getting into the hobby, since it does do a reasonable job at all the tasks I've thrown it's way -- just not as good as the "right" plane. I've been tempted to buy another iron and grind it to make a York pitch version (I think L/V even sells this for their plane), but at the moment I've got better ways to lighten my wallet. Hint of the day: run a stick of canning wax (or a candle, I suppose) over the bottom of your planes next time you're using one. I'm continually amazed how much of a difference this makes. Chris, a long way from Scott in Fairbanks Alaska -- Christopher S. Swingley University of Alaska Fairbanks cswingle@i... http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/ OldTools Searchable Archive: http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ http://archive.oldtools.org/ ---- Start of Message 132535 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-04-23 19:13:47 Subject: Re: Bevel (Bezel) Article Peter said (from Melbourne): > The one I composed in my head about 2 years ago was because in that edition of > their mag almost every picture in every article had a Lie Nielsen product that > was on the bench, on the shelf behind, or in the hands of the author. This has > slowed down a bit recently, but still annoys me...subliminal > advertising...(maybe I'm overreacting). Peter, This reminds me. I realize it is three weeks late, but I meant to request comments on my new L-N plane storage rack. Mostly I would like suggestions on where to put the rest of them. http://tinyurl.com/2hqny Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ---- Start of Message 132536 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-04-23 19:17:57 Subject: Re: Bevel (Bezel) Article Let me try that again. The link didn't work. http://tinyurl.com/3xfsn It is the one labeled L-N Plane Rack. Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank" To: "oldtools" Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Bevel (Bezel) Article > Peter said (from Melbourne): > > > The one I composed in my head about 2 years ago was because in that > edition of > > their mag almost every picture in every article had a Lie Nielsen > product that > > was on the bench, on the shelf behind, or in the hands of the author. > This has > > slowed down a bit recently, but still annoys me...subliminal > > advertising...(maybe I'm overreacting). > > Peter, > > This reminds me. I realize it is three weeks late, but I meant to > request comments on my new L-N plane storage rack. Mostly I would like > suggestions on where to put the rest of them. > > http://tinyurl.com/2hqny > > Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) > ---- Start of Message 132537 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-04-24 00:23:55 Subject: Re: Bevel (Bezel) Article Now Frank No one likes a show off. Possibably a little overkill there. Or maybe I just wouldn't know what to do with a plane that didn't take two hours of cleaning, tuneing and fiddling before I used it. Steve ---- Start of Message 132538 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-04-24 00:29:17 Subject: re: need a new slope Johnathan your not trying. Spokeshaves, greenwoodworking tools, carving tools, treadle lathes or scroll saws, woodies in all the sizes and profiles. Son you barely have enough tools to build places to put the ones you still need. Steve Allways willing to supply grade a grease at no charge to a fellow galoot. Did you need a push? ---- Start of Message 132539 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-04-24 00:34:09 Subject: Itty bitty Plumb hammer I finally got a chance to go rhrough a box of j%*k er parts that followed me home from a flea. One odd thing was the smallest ball peen hammer head I've ever seen. It has Plumb and 4 oz stamped on one side and is less than three inches long with a head less than a half inch around. What was something that small used for? Also since I have to make a handle how long should it be? Finally is it a tool or a toy? Steve ---- Start of Message 132540 ---- From: Matthew and Cathy Groves Date: 2004-04-23 20:07:42 Subject: Re: Bevel (Bezel) Article Sorry to post on list, but please allow me to explain. Am I the only galoot who consistently has trouble accessing pages from wdynamic (like in the tiny url below) ? If I am, so be it, no action required, but somehow I'm guessing there's more people than myself, perhaps a lot more. Maybe we can discover some common denominator to those of us who can't access those pages. I don't have any filtering software or anything that I can see would cause my problems. Anyone else? Matthew Groves > From: "Frank" > Reply-To: "Frank" > Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:17:57 -0500 > To: "oldtools" > Subject: Re: [oldtools] Bevel (Bezel) Article > > Let me try that again. The link didn't work. http://tinyurl.com/3xfsn > It is the one labeled L-N Plane Rack. > > Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ---- Start of Message 132541 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-04-23 21:12:46 Subject: Re: Itty bitty Plumb hammer Steve, That hammer sounds like one I have and use regularly. It worked great to remove, and reinstall the tiny taper pin on the bottom of my Goodell miter box. Mine says "Easco, No 04.204, 4oz, USA. The nice handle looks original and is well Patina'd. It came from a yard sale, cost eighty cents. Since we have recently been discussing shipping costs of EB*y items, I just received a Stanley #42x sawset, and a #67 sawvise by The Franklin Tool Company of Buffalo, NY. Both came off Ebay in the same auction, total for both was $17 delivered to me. The auction price was $9.99. The sawset has 40% japanning, but otherwise seems fine, the vise looks like it was never used. I also just received a decent Atkins saw. It's a big cc, handle has nice big full horns, straight blade has surface rust, I'll zap it lightly this weekend. Ebay price was $1.81, he charged me $7 to ship. I'll report more on this after some inspection and cleaning. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Who will NOT be attending LFOD tomorrow. Instead, I will be spending quality time with my 3 GIT's. > I finally got a chance to go rhrough a box of j%*k er parts that followed me home from a flea. One odd thing was the smallest ball peen hammer head I've ever seen. It has Plumb and 4 oz stamped on one side and is less than three inches long with a head less than a half inch around. What was something that small used for? Also since I have to make a handle how long should it be? Finally is it a tool or a toy? > Steve ---- Start of Message 132542 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-04-23 21:18:36 Subject: Re: Bevel (Bezel) Article Hi Matthew, I've been having the same trouble lately. I e-mailed Jim to see if there were any problems. He checked it out and thought the problem might be on my end. Sometimes I get in, and sometimes I don't. Regards Jonathan >Am I the only galoot who consistently has trouble accessing pages >from wdynamic ---- Start of Message 132543 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-04-23 21:16:46 Subject: Re: Bevel (Bezel) Article > The one I composed in my head about 2 years ago was because in > that edition of their mag almost every picture in every article > had a Lie Nielsen product that was on the bench, on the shelf > behind, or in the hands of the author. This has slowed down a bit > recently, but still annoys me...subliminal advertising...(maybe > I'm overreacting). I think you are, Peter. I've spent time in the magazine world and I've always chuckled about how people 'know' that this or that advertiser is favored. Let's look at the facts. The most expensive ads in the last issue of FWW are being paid by Delta and the makers of Titebond glue. Other large color ads come from Woodcraft, Makita, Sears, Bosch, Rigid, and Forrest. By comparison, LN has a 1/8th page ad, whose price pales by comparison to the others. If 'subliminal' advertising is the name of the game, we should see Titebond glue bottles in all the photos, not LN planes. Truth is, LN planes are pretty. They make a nice 'woodworking' backdrop for the photos. As one of the letters to the editor suggests, when they take photos, they are all staged - the shavings and dust are removed. FWW is in the business of creating a good-looking magazine as well as a useful one. > I don't think they are anti handtool at all...just strongly for > their advertisers. You have to be wrong about one of these things. The majority of their advertising comes from machine and machine accessories marketers. If they're not anti-handtool (and I think they are quite the opposite) then they're not overly biased by who is and who is not buying advertising. Truth is, magazines like FWW make money on advertising and by being at the top of the heap in terms of magazine sales. Their magazine is more expensive for this reason. This also allows their editors more latitude in providing content that may not be related to their advertisers. It's how the business works. By contrast, pick up a copy of something like Better Homes & Gardens. You pay nothing for it because it's business model is one of getting lots of advertising and serving those advertisers with their editorial content. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132544 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-04-23 21:49:14 Subject: Re: need a new slope Jonathan writes : >I've got a decent amount of planes of all types, chisels, >drawknives, panel saws, backsaws, braces, drills, bits, mallets, >gauges, gadgets and widgets. I'm getting the oldtools itch and I'm >having trouble finding something that I want/need to buy. How about books ? Once you have all the tools, you have to figure out what you're going to make with them, so books on furniture are called for. But then you'll start to wonder where you'll put your newly made furniture, so books on interior decoration will be needed. Then you'll want a nice place to decorate so books on architecture will go nicely with the rest. 'course you'll want to look at all the styles and features of the last 4000 years or so, well, you get the picture. Paul (who's been running out of shelf space lately...) ---- Start of Message 132545 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-04-23 22:07:56 Subject: RE: Bevel (Bezel) Article >The one I composed in my head about 2 years ago was because in that >edition of their mag almost every picture in every article had a Lie >Nielsen product that was on the bench, on the shelf behind, or in the >hands of the author. I remember this to. Last year FWW started coming out with plane reviews (smoothers, jacks, scrapers etc...). In the articles, I remember them saying that they had been testing these planes out for a year. My guess is they liked these L-N's almost as much as Frank does (I do to). Just my 2c Later Jonathan ---- Start of Message 132546 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-04-23 22:05:41 Subject: Re: Bevel (Bezel) Article Steve, Maybe I wasn't being specific enough when I said I was posting three weeks late. Maybe I should have said 22 days late to make it more obviously the 1st of April. The plane rack actually comes from a L-N ad I received yesterday. I certainly don't have that many L-N planes! At least not yet. Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve lineback" To: "oldtools" Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 7:23 PM Subject: Re:[oldtools] Bevel (Bezel) Article > Now Frank No one likes a show off. Possibably a little overkill there. Or maybe I just wouldn't know what to do with a plane that didn't take two hours of cleaning, tuneing and fiddling before I used it. > Steve > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132547 ---- From: "Bret Rochotte" Date: 2004-04-23 23:09:48 Subject: Whitchor-Franklin Shaves and Lisston saw Hello; I spotted a couple Whitchor-Franklin Shaves at a local flea market. They are nice heavy castings with curved handles reminiscent of coach maker's tools. Are these for working wood, or possibly for leather/shoe making? They have wide flat soles a little like the Stanley 68 rabbet shave, but not actually rabbet shaves. Thought I would ask. The other item is a HC Lisston saw that looks like a meat or bone saw. Looks like a large dagger, teeth on one side sharp blade on the other. Looks suspiciously like a disguised product of Henry Disston. I probably should check archives, I will dutifully do that now, but I wanted to ask about the shaves. Is this a bone saw? For butchering or is it a rare Civil War surgeons saw? Kind of like the fuse holders I suspect. I may go back and get the above mentioned items. Thanks, Bret Bret and Wendy Rochotte New Bremen, Ohio rochotte@b... ---- Start of Message 132548 ---- From: Darrell & Kathy Date: 2004-04-23 23:38:00 Subject: project completion gloat Galoots, Warning: long rambling post. No, really, it's *long*. If you like this sort of stuff, read on! Otherwise: "I used a lot of hand tools to build a bed" Well, I've finished a project. One that used loads and loads of hand tools. This time I was under a serious time constraint. Every April I donate something, usually one of those shaker style candle stands, to a local charity auction. These small tables don't require a lot of wood or time, so they're perfect for this application. "Oops, the auction is next week, what will I do?" I have in fact built a tilt-top candle stand from a single 8 foot long Borg 2X4 (but not for the auction!). Not much wood at all, eh? This year, I decided to do something a bit more ambitious. A sleighbed. Given that the sleighbed I made for my son took FIVE YEARS to build, this is *really* ambitious. I started the first week of January (THIS year!) and the auction was mid-April. In order to keep the project small enough to actually get DONE on time, I chose to make a toddler sized bed (takes a standard crib mattress). I figured it would sell to some doting grand parent who wants to spoil a grandchild. If they're lucky there will be several such patrons in the crowd on auction day ;^) I selected walnut for the project, with poplar as the secondary wood. This is because we have a pile of cheap ($2.50/BF) walnut and some *free* 8/4 poplar. Mmmmmm... Free Wood (insert Homer Simpson drooling noise here). The forms for the prototype bed I built way back when were still hanging in the garage, so all I needed was to size the parts for the crib mattress. Way back when? Wow, I just checked the Oldtool Archives, and my first post was May of '97 and around that time I was starting the design process for the first sleighbed. Seven years. Time flies, eh? Ah, but I digress... I traced the prototype bed post (yes we still have the pine prototype; it's a bit beat up and currently lives in a corner of the basement playroom, disassembled, in a heap) on some paper, and then fiddled with the design a bit to make the bed taller and give it more 'interesting' feet. Once I was happy with that it was time to start working wood. Off to the lumber rack... I don't own a powah jointah, so all the face and edge jointing was done with my (t)rusty hand planes. I roughed out the bed posts on the bandsaur (sorry) and cleaned up with shaves and scrapers. I was trying to use my LV low angle shave in the inside curves, but it would not get into some of them. So I switched to my blue Record round bottom shave. It was OK but a bit clunky and the mouth is too big. I took one of the un-tuned Stanley #64 spokeshaves off the shave rack and filed the bottom round. Honed the iron, and it works really well. I found a Stanley #63 at the Tools of The Trade sale afterwards (round bottom version of the #64) but it was expensive and I had my modified shave anyways, so I passed on it. In the meantime, I ripped a big pile of strips (about 1/2 by 1 inch by 28 inches long) for the coopered panels. You didn't expect me to put *flat* panels in this did you? No way. My technique for these panels is to clamp the first strip to the form, then bevel each successive strip to mate with the previous one and glue them on one at a time. I put the clamps along the edge of the completed portion of the panel, and tap wedges between the clamp bar and the new strip. Works fine, but you can only do a half dozen strips per night. It took a week to get the panels glued up this way, but I was working on the bed posts at the same time. Once the panels were glued up it was time to smooth them and fair the curves. Scraper time! Scrape scrape scrape. Burnt thumbs, cramped fingers, tired arms. The only good part was that I could reach all the way across the panel. On David's bed I had to work from one side then the other, so I had to be more careful about keeping an even curve across the width. Not that this would have been detectable by anyone but me (builder's angst?). Then I started trying to clean up the ends of the panels. Uh Oh. Got a problem here. My panels are not anywhere *near* to being square! I think my forms were crooked. I'm gonna BURN those forms (expletives deleted). After I had calmed down and could go back in the shop without raising my blood pressure I started taking some careful measurements. I think it can still be made to work, but there is no more room for error. I scribed the squarest line I could and started planing down to the line. Lots of end grain work. I tried a block plane, smoother, jointer, Hoosier Tools ebony-stuffed shoulder plane, but it was a Stanley #64 shave that did the best job on the walnut endgrain. Did I mention that I like these shaves? Time for the headboard rails. The bottom rails are just basic rectangular pieces of wood, morticed into the posts. The crest rails are turnings. The crest rail mortices were bored on my post drill with a forstner bit. I roughed out the lower rail mortices with a brace and forstner bit. When I first got that brace bit it was only a curiosity. I did not expect it to work because the centre point was nonexistent. When I actually tried the bit it did not wander as I had expected. Cool. It cuts nice holes! Gotta get me some more of these... then I acquired a set of 6 NOS Ridgeway forstner brace bits at the Tools of The Trade sale. Right under Dan's nose . I initially had some trouble with the crest rail turnings but a few questions directed at my friends in the Golden Horseshoe Woodturning Guild helped a lot. Build a full length tool rest they told me. OK, I have a chunk of angle iron which will make decent tool rest. A quick visit to my local Metal Supermarket for some round bar stock, some time with hacksaw, files, post drill, and taps, and I was all set. I clamped a stop block on my square nosed scraper and ran this against the full length rest. Presto! Two nearly perfect cylinders. Now I needed to groove the crest rails to receive the top of the panels. The only reference I knew for this was a Chris Becksvoort sleighbed article (which you can find online somewhere on FWW's website if'n yer innerested in such things...) wherein he built a box type contraption to hold the turning, and ran this through his tablesaur. This is how I did David's bed. Nasty. Noisy, dusty, and dangerous. I pulled the crest rail grooving box out of the dark and cobwebby corner it lives in and mounted the first crest rail in it. Then I looked at the tablesaur and said to myself "Self, there has got to be a way to do this with hand tools. Find it." Indeed, it was immediately obvious, once I had loaded the turning into the box, the side of said box would easily guide the fence of a plow plane. I grabbed the Stanley #45 off the shelf, picked out an appropriate cutter, set the depth stop, and had at it. Results were excellent. I pulled the turning out of the box and rushed upstairs to show Kathy. "That was quick, I never even heard the saw" she says. I explained what I did and she wanted to see me do the second crest rail. 5 minutes later she had seen it. Slower than a tablesaur? Yes, and quieter, safer, less dusty, and very satisfying to boot. http://www.workshopbuzz.com/gallery/images/283_qqxyIER0wP.jpg The grooves in the lower rails to accept the lower edge of the panels were a bit of a problem. It had to be an odd shape. Like this: ................ ..____......__.. ..|..|...../.|.. ..|..|..../..|.. ..|..|.../...|.. ..|..|__/....|.. ..|..........|.. ..|..........|.. I must admit to some off-charter behaviour in this case. 'Nuff said about that (*ahem*, checks watch, adjusts tie, looks around at the scenery to avoid making eye contact...) Time to scribe the groove for the panels on the bed posts. I dry fit the crest and lower rails in their mortices, then set the panel into the grooves. Try to square everything up as best you can, then pencil along both sides of the panel. I roughed out the groove by drilling a line of holes, and then used a couple of incannel gouges and paring chisels to pare back to the lines. I cleaned up the bottom of the groove with a Stanley Router plane. Sure, this could'a been done using some kind of electrickery and speedy, finger-eatin' demonic tools, but this was way more fun. Hand tools do the job just fine. Geeze, look who I'm talkin' to. You people know this already. The side rails are rather simple hunks of wood, with bits glued onto the upper edge at the ends. These bits are rounded off to fair the curve from the post into the side rail. The joint between the posts & side rails use some knockdown hardware I got from the local home centre. I hope these will stand up to the punishment they'll get from a 4 yr-old. I might someday get a desperate phone call and have to retrofit the bed with some new hardware or make a new set of rails... but I really hope not. Then I had to dub all those beautiful crisp sharp arrises I had created. Sigh. Spokeshaves, chisels, SJBT infill block plane, files, and some sandpaper take care of this. Dunno why I'm so set against rounding off the corners. I get cut by wood far more often than by steel. Maybe it's just a reaction to that quarter-round router bit profile you see on everything Norm makes, and darn near everything that comes out of most power-tool woodworker shops. I can't stand that look (yuk!). Gimme a delicate little 1/8 inch bead, or a nice uneven roundover made with a block plane any day. Now, how will the mattress be supported? Kathy thinks a series of closely spaced crossmembers supported by cleats would work. Some canvas strips tacked to the crossmembers to keep them spaced apart, and allow you to roll up the slats for moving the bed. I dunno about that. Kids are pretty rough & tumble at times. I decide to put in TIGHTLY spaced crossmembers (i.e. NO spaces). This requires quite a lot of material. But I have a couple of 10 foot lengths of 8/4 poplar I got free a couple years ago (thanks Dan!) This is perfect. [ interlude: jointing, ripping, resawing, thickness planing ] This is where work grinds to a halt. It's time to start the major glue-up of the headboards. Make or Break time. Everything looks fine dry-fitted but what will happen when it's all glued together? I dodge and duck and rationalize and otherwise weasel my way out of doing this. But the deadline keeps on inching closer, so it MUST be done. I gather my supplies and my courage and head for the shop. Calmness, zen, careful precision and all that good stuff. I conscripted my wife as an assistant assembler. In order to ensure that everything lines up nicely after the glue dries, I thought that I would do the assembly of both head boards at the same time (thus the need for another pair of hands) and hook up the side rails before the glue sets. This way the bed sits properly on a flat surface. And I can tell the buyer he has an out-of-flat floor when he complains that the bed wobbles. It didn't go together as easily with glue as it did dry. I ended up paring a glue-smeared tenon at the end of the assembly session, and using some serious persuasion (large heavy hammer) to get the last joint together. But it did go together, finally. A bit of squeezeout to contend with, and then it's time to mount the cleats. These will support the slats that form the bottom of the bed. Glue and screws for the cleats. I drilled the pilot holes with my trusty Millers Falls two-speed hand drill. Then I rough cut the slats to length. I just want to get them all in and trimmed to width first, before I start cleaning them up. And once all the slats were in place on the cleats I walked on them. If they have to support a 4 yr-old then they better be able to hold me up! Wow, the contrast between the very white poplar and the dark walnut is really stark. Jumps right out at you. It'll be even better after a couple coats of shellac, eh? I hauled out a clean and very nice Mathieson & Son #4 skewed hollow to round off the long edges on all the slats. Hey, Richard, looks like I got one o' yer relative's planes. The owner stamp is "T. WILSON". And no, you ain't gonna get this one back, heh heh heh. My daughter loves the long spiral shavings this plane produces. Looks like she's making a bird nest out of them. Time to put my name on this thing. I bought a stamp from Mazzaglia Tools [shill shill] for marking stuff. It's a planemaker's stamp, so it is designed to work on end grain. I stand next to the bed, hammer in one hand, stamp in the other, and I look for a nice flat bit of end grain to bash my name into... there isn't any. Can't stamp the end of the side rails because the hardware is in the way. The top and bottom of the bed posts are curved. Time to grab an offcut and start trying face-grain stamping. It's gonna be difficult to get a good mark in face grain. I tried stamping face and edge grain and if you support the stock solidly (like on the concrete floor, tempered by some scrap) you can get a decent mark. Then I used my letter and number stamps to add the date & location (Bronte 2004) next to my name. I put the marks on the underside of one of the short rails. The finish is shellac. Nice, simple, and effective. Super blonde from Paddy's Big Bugspit Bulk Buy Bonanza. I dumped some flakes into the "spice" grinder (garage sale), whizzz them into dust, and dump this into an old mayonaise jar. Fill with 99% isopropyl alcohol ($13/4L from the AllColour Paint factory outlet just down the road) and drop in a rod magnet I bought from Lee Valley. Then I set the jar on the magnetic stirrer (which I built from a discarded 5 1/4" floppy disk drive) and swing the 100W desk lamp over to heat up the jar whilst it mixes. Leave this for a couple hours and you got fully dissolved bug stuff. Shellac should be up to the task, as that's what I used on David's bed. And if it worked for his bed it'll work for just about anyone's. Unless the kid's a chewer, in which case nothing will work, and shellac is non toxic so even in this extreme it's still the finish of choice. Wow, does that walnut ever look rich when the first coat of finish goes on. I'd gotten away from walnut in recent years, using mostly ash, cherry, and beech, and now that I've started working with the Dark Stuff again I'm wondering why I ever stopped using it... After the first coat of shellac has had a day to dry I went over the bed with some #0000 steel wool to knock back the raised grain. Then another two brushed on coats, some drying time, and another steel wool treatment. After that, it's just a matter of wiping on a few thin coats. http://www.workshopbuzz.com/gallery/images/283_FoSotKuAch.jpg http://www.workshopbuzz.com/gallery/images/283_ME1IYfHjJI.jpg So there it is. Once again I've built something nice that won't be around to show off to anyone. Well, at least I got a few pictures, and helped out a worthwhile cause. Let's just say "It was fun, but next year I'll make a candle stand" -- Darrell Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User ---- Start of Message 132549 ---- From: "Andrew F in Australia" Date: 2004-04-24 04:21:04 Subject: Re: Your Favorite Mrthod of Cleaning Wood Handles? Hi Guys, Bill's right here. Turps = paint thinner (mineral Turpentine, or if you prefer, distilled turpentine) Meths = metho = methylated spirits = ethanol with about 5% methanol added to make it toxic/bitter. I think the US name is denatured alcohol. Cheers, Andrew On Apr 23, 2004, at 9:45 AM, Michael Campbell wrote: > dcohen wrote: >> Here is the recipe given to me several months ago when I purchased > an H & R >> half-set. The owner had used it on the planes, and also > demonstrated using >> it on a few other pieces lying around. It seemed to work very well > without >> destroying the patina. >> >> 200ml Turps 100ml Meth 150ml Vinegar 25 ml mild detergent 10ml >> Ammonia (5% solution) 25ml Brasso > > For us mono-linguists (aka "Americans"), can someone translate "turps" > and "meth" for me please? > >turpentine methylated spirits (aka, iirc, denatured alcohol) > > > __________________________________ ---- Start of Message 132550 ---- From: "Dan Clermont" Date: 2004-04-24 05:44:46 Subject: Re: low-angle bench planes I am a big fan of the Lie Nielsen 62 Low angle jack and it is one of the only planes I can go from rough to ready with. I can set the blade for a rank cut, close down the mouth to eliminate tearout to get my initial thickness. You can then flatten the board with it and then switch blades to a york pitch and do final finishing. It's also good for end grain and shooting boards. I only own 1 Lie Nielsen bench plane and this is the one. I keep thinking I want a 4 1/2 or 5 1/2 but think they may be redudnant. Ducking and Runnning, Dan Clermont ---- Start of Message 132551 ---- From: "Dan Clermont" Date: 2004-04-24 05:48:46 Subject: re: project completion gloat My God! I am exhausted, first from reading your post, second for thinking about all that work making a bed in 3 months! Well Done, Dan Clermont in Burnaby ---- Start of Message 132552 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-04-24 07:37:37 Subject: RE: low-angle bench planes : -----Original Message----- : From: Christopher Swingley [mailto:cswingle@i...] : Sent: 24 April 2004 00:58 : To: oldtools : Subject: Re:[oldtools] low-angle bench planes : : ..................................... I think the : ergonomics of the bench plane style, and the greater mass : helps in end : grain situations. I haven't found it to be a better plane in : any other : situation that some people mention. It might actually be a : good first : plane for someone just getting into the hobby, since it does do a : reasonable job at all the tasks I've thrown it's way -- just : not as good : as the "right" plane. As a bench plane, my thoughts run towards inferior ease of adjustment (especially laterally) and amount of useable blade compared with the standard Bailey pattern. It seems to me that the low bedding angle creates too many design problems and I wonder why such planes seem to be so enthusiastically received. Ability to modify the cutting angle seems to be the principal benefit. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 132553 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-04-24 07:37:37 Subject: RE: low-angle bench planes : -----Original Message----- : From: Christopher Swingley [mailto:cswingle@i...] : Sent: 24 April 2004 00:58 : To: oldtools : Subject: Re:[oldtools] low-angle bench planes : : ..................................... I think the : ergonomics of the bench plane style, and the greater mass : helps in end : grain situations. I haven't found it to be a better plane in : any other : situation that some people mention. It might actually be a : good first : plane for someone just getting into the hobby, since it does do a : reasonable job at all the tasks I've thrown it's way -- just : not as good : as the "right" plane. As a bench plane, my thoughts run towards inferior ease of adjustment (especially laterally) and amount of useable blade compared with the standard Bailey pattern. It seems to me that the low bedding angle creates too many design problems and I wonder why such planes seem to be so enthusiastically received. Ability to modify the cutting angle seems to be the principal benefit. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 132554 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-04-24 01:46:39 Subject: RE: bit basics You can find them even cheaper at garage sales but you might not find a whole set together at once. Apparently the really spendy item are the burrs which were used to cut bullet molds. Keep your eye out for them. I will this summer. Let's see if I can find it, someone posted a link to a manual of Irwins that will help you identify the different types of bits when you see them, at least some of them. Beware on the lead screw issue -- some have twin threads so they appear fine but may pull in med or fast. And at the risk of repeating what everyone else will probably also say try the links at the bottom of the posts to read the archives. Sorry, I have too many tool links to identify it. Chances are I just saved it as an ebook to my computer anyway. Unless someone posts it your best bet is to use the search engine for oldtools and search for "Irwin Auger Bit Manual" and it should pop up. It will answer a lot of your questions. > [Original Message] > From: Joe Skehan > To: oldtools > Date: 4/22/2004 10:04:50 PM > Subject: [oldtools] bit basics > > I recently picked up a bit brace and am in need of some bits. I'm just > looking for a set of bit to use, I'm not collecting. > > Jennings and Irwin are names that have come up. Is there a difference > in quality with age? Are older bits any better for use than newer ones? > What about the pitch of the lead screw? I assume a finer thread would > pull the bit slower. Does this make a big difference. How do I tell > what pitch they have from a picture on ebay? > > The sets seem pretty inexpensive. There are 13 bit sets on ebay with a > box ranging from $25. I've never looked before, but are the common on > the old tools list for sale? > > Any remedial advice would be greatly appreciate. > > Thanks, > Joe > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 132555 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-04-24 01:52:24 Subject: RE: Dance tips needed Ditto. I feel like dancing because I just finished my first turning, a wood rasp handle that I also affixed a brass next nut to as a ferrule. fun fun fun I also did discover, through careful observation and fine fine steel wool and vinegar, the word Stanley on my wooden scrub plane along with the dates of 1876 and 1922. Between that and the old No 6 and a little knowledge of my grandparents background I think I have some of the original tools they bought when they built their first house here in america. I know my dad had told me the nail puller was definitely from building that house but it wouldn't surprise me if these other tools were bought to help make furniture to furnish the house. > [Original Message] > From: > To: oldtools > Date: 4/22/2004 6:50:09 PM > Subject: [oldtools] Dance tips needed > So you see my need. Does Arthur Murray teach the GVD? > > cur ---- Start of Message 132556 ---- From: "Dan Clermont" Date: 2004-04-24 07:08:38 Subject: FS -> Planes and Chisels I have the following for sale and thought I'd offer them up here before going the online auction route. Standard Old Tools terms, if you have a bio or I recognize your name just give me your address and I'll ship the tool out to you, If you like it send back a money order, cashier's cheque or Paypal for the cost of the tool and the shipping charges. If you don;t have a bio or are not a regular user e-mail me and we'll work something out. Chisel #1 -> 3/8 Swedish Tang Chisel Chisel is in very good condition, partial label which I do believe reads "ESTEEL". The blade has the Markings "EskilstunaSteel Made in Sweden" over two lines. This is one of my users so it has been lapped and polished. $12US http://www3.telus.net/clermonts/For%20sale/Esteel1.tif http://www3.telus.net/clermonts/For%20sale/Esteel2.tif Chisel #2 -> 1/8" Canadian Champion Chisel This chisel is also in good condition with 70%label on the handle and a leather ring on the end stillin good condition. Blade has been lapped and polished again one of my users I've got to let go. $6US http://www3.telus.net/clermonts/For%20sale/Champ1.tif http://www3.telus.net/clermonts/For%20sale/Champ2.tif Bailey 4 1/2C Type 13 This is a plane I bought strictly for the knob and tote cause they were so pretty. I was going to sell this plane as parts but have decided it was too nice and should be someones user. I have lapped the sole using drywall screen and a granite reference plate, the blade has been lapped and polished. The plane retains about 90%+ of its original jappanning. Blade is a Sweetheart "made in Can". Their is a small chip missing on the left side cheek but it is hardly noticeable. Also mut make note that some idiot used the lever cap at some point to release the chipbreaker. Neither of these faults seem to affect the performance. This plane works as well as my Bedrock 604 1/2, I'd keep it but I have an emotional attachment to that Bedrock! Yours for $65US http://www3.telus.net/clermonts/For%20sale/type13_1.tif http://www3.telus.net/clermonts/For%20sale/type13_3.tif http://www3.telus.net/clermonts/For%20sale/type13_4.tif Bailey #5C Type 11 Body This plane body has three patent dates and retains about 90% of the jappanning. It is in good condition and yours for $12US. http://www3.telus.net/clermonts/For%20sale/type13_4.tif http://www3.telus.net/clermonts/For%20sale/type11_2.tif Thanks, Dan Clermont ---- Start of Message 132557 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-04-24 02:05:41 Subject: Re: Your Favorite Mrthod of Cleaning Wood Handles? You might not like to hear this but if you are using danish oil more often than not you are introducing polyurethane plastic into the mix. Most danish oils are just 1/3 poly, 1/3 oil, 1/3 mineral spirits. Not that danish oil is bad -- I have finished the majority of my wooden furniture projects with danish oil. I love it for furniture because it doesn't detract from the grain, but since it is so incredibly easy to make either make it using an older alkyd resin varnish or clear finish or really read that can closely so it doesn't say urethane in the list of ingredients. Another issue here is that BLO is more than a little susceptible to mold growth which can blacken. Either mix in a bit of compatible mineral oil to inhibit that or just live with it. The lightest of the clear finishes out there apparently use soybean oil and add some kind of mildew inhibitor to the product. > [Original Message] > From: Bruce Love > To: oldtools > I got worried about linseed oil because I have heard from a couple > of sources how it can darken the wood. This is what I think happens > to you. I also remember reading in FWW recently Mike Dunbar saying > he has switched from using Linseed Oil to Danish Oil finish for the > same reason. > > So...recently I tried a couple of saw handles and chisel handles > in shellac, and now I am leaning that way...although to some > extent it depends how bad (or non-existent) the original finish is. I've generally just used BLO and wax but lately I have been thinking I should start trying shellac as well. I recently ran across a recipe where someone posted on another forum they use premixed shellac by 1 part, 1 part alcohol, and 1 part BLO. BUt I didn't think this was possible? Is this person just pulling legs seeing who will correct them? I thought the oil and alcohol will not mix but then I have never tried. I tried lacquer and something else once and got a strange mix much like oriental egg drop soup. ---- Start of Message 132558 ---- From: T&J Holloway Date: 2004-04-24 00:58:20 Subject: Re: FWW Bevel Article Subtitle: "There's not much new under the OldTools sun." Here's what Joseph Moxon says about what he calls the "Bevil," p. 89 of his 1685 treatise (319 years ago, Paddy), illustrated on Plate 4, item F, looking pretty much like the one(s) you have in your shop: "As the square is made to strike an angle of 90 degrees, and the miter an angle of 45 degrees, so the bevil having its tongue movable upon the center, may be set to strike angles of any greater, or lesser numbers of degrees, according as you open the tongue wider from, or shut it closer to, the handle. It is used as the square, and the miter, and will perform the offices of them both, though it be not purposely made for either; but for the striking such bevil-lines, as one part of your work must be cut away to, to make it join with another part of your work. [Moxon then launches into a detailed discussion of how one would to about laying out an 8-sided frame, using dividers and a "bevil."] Tom Holloway, in Vacaville, CA, where Spring is about to arrive again, for good. ---- Start of Message 132559 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-04-24 03:07:45 Subject: RE: Your Favorite Method of Cleaning Wood Handles? Fascinating, if not overly long. Here I thought there was going to be the ultimate solution from a museum curator along with the recommendation of some new solvent I had never heard of and..... it's basically more fuel to the fire. More confusion! I do use simple green on my forrest woodworking blade for that unmentionable device but I would never have dreamt of taking it to an old plane. It is pretty gentle stuff, I might now after reading that. Another thing that no one pointed out, that I noticed anyway, in the discussion is that WAX was a traditional old finish. They had beeswax and maybe a few others. But even though wax doesn't penetrate deeply, like thinned BLO will, when it protects the best part is from a potential collectible oldtools standpoint wax is easily thoroughly removed. Even if it is one of those old obscure finishes where they mix wax with tars or amber or rosin something like naptha will remove it in a heartbeat and be evaporated three beats later so you are absolutely positively sure there is no damage like soapy water has the potential for. The other nice thing wax has going for it is that it also protects metal parts as well without gumming them up like BLO would do. And naptha won't harm shellac to the best of my knowledge shellac is totally unaffected by naptha. The issue that still remains is that BLO is still a food source for molds and mildew.... microscopic fungi living within the wood. BLO is from the flax plant and any plant material is subject to eventually breakdown by its surrounding. Unless the plane was made the same day the tree was down there is likely some fungi introduced into its wood. BLO maybe able to bring that back to life to some degree. There are yeasts(another fungus) which have come back to life after hundreds, if not thousands of years. They can remain dormant that long. Wax will just out and out encase it, waterproof it, airproof it, in effect basically quarantine any existing fungus. Almost nothing eats through wax. Even acids like hydrofluoric acid which can eat through glass and make HCL seem like water in comparison. Even hydrofluoric acid can not eat through wax. And it doesn't have to be an inexpensive fancy type of wax. Any "garden variety" wax. Really why worry initially what kind it is because you can always safely remove it and upgrade to a better or more traditional wax later anyway? Having said all that glorifying wax to a heavenly status from the oldtools point of view I find myself wondering how that soaking the plane thing would work on an old stanley wooden scrub plane I have that has some cracks on each end. I would love to close them up but short of something like superglue, which is absolutely not appropriate, I have no clue how to go about that. Honestly, I haven't touched the finish with shellac or oil on my old wooden plane. But paddy has a good and similiar point to mine that shellac would be easy to remove if one needed to. And its sealing properties are very much similiar to wax. With all the cleaning I read about on this oldtools list I am almost a little embarassed to say that I really don't clean any of my oldtools. The only time I will clean something is if I see that it has that kind of crusty rust that is obviously invading the steel or iron surface to the point that it will do some pitting. I have learned from cleaning other things that so long as that dark brown patina has no obvious redness and no crustiness it stays dense enough to seal out any further tool damage. I have cleaned some old wrenches which just had dark brown densely packed patina on them and learned that they look awful shiny and they also rusted shortly thereafter. I wish I left the original dense brown patina on them and that is what I have done with my old tools to date. I probably should wax them sometime, though. I most often, inspect, lightly oil any necessary moving parts, and leave things as is. Most importantly I keep them away from water. High and dry. Even that I consider second to the main thing I like to do -- sharpen. I don't care if a tool looks old and dark as long as it is sharp enough to be used effectively. I guess I am a real pragmatist in this respect. I see no functional improvement to cleaning for the sake of cleaning. I see improvement with the light oiling and sharpening. And while I have no scientific proof to back up my next statement I believe that the addition of body oil and sweat is perfectly fine. They may have some of their own magical preserving ability for all I know. I recently took some of the finest steel wool I could get to the wooden body plane BLADE ONLY just to clear up the name stanley and patent dates of 1876 and 1922 but beyond that I guess I don't see the point. Old tools are supposed to look and feel old. I spend cleaning and fussing time trying to keep my new tools looking new. All in all I don't really feel I have the time to be pulling apart old tools and cleaning them finely when I sometimes have trouble keep rust off the new tools so why bother? They don't look any different this decade than they did last or even ten decades back.... If I REALLY wanted to preserve it I would probably electroplate it but that would be very out of character for an oldtool. It just wouldn't sit right. But I would like to try making some new tools, lathe turning chisels, and maybe learn how to electroplate those. I ground out a heavy duty bowl gouge yesterday from an inch thick macpherson strut shaft that weighs about 7 pounds. And I annealed a nearly two foot long nicholson file that I intend to turn into something. Not that I have ever done this to an old tool but once every year or three I p*w*r buff my favorite hammer handle which is an octagon handle finished with just an oil finish. It removes dirt wonderfully and leaves it rejuvenated without seeming to affect the patina it has developed much, if at all. If anything you might consider buffing. Buffing compounds are much finer than the vast majority of steel wools and sandpaper you might be currently using and best of all buffing compounds are all wax based so they leave a fine amount of residual protection. Matter of fact when I had some solid silver cigarette cases and a flask from my father from WWII when I wanted to clean them up here is what I did. I took an eighth inch drill bit, annealed it, then cut threads in it, put on a nut and washer followed by several discs of leather, followed by another washer and nut. I chucked this up in my high speed dr*m*l and used the finest silver polish I could find. It worked beautifully. It was easy to control and best of all while the top got nice and shiny the custom japanese engraving stayed dark. The contrast was superb. You might think about a leather wheel and wax based buffing compound as both a quick but extremely gentle way to clean some old items. It removes dirt wonderfully. (whew, I did get long winded there. Sorry if it bothered anyone, hopefully a few of you will either put some of that into use or at least consider it) > [Original Message] > From: Jordan, Wolfgang > To: oldtools > Cc: OldTools Mailing List \(Beiträge\) > Date: 4/23/2004 1:47:05 AM > Subject: RE:[oldtools] Your Favorite Method of Cleaning Wood Handles? > > Bill, > > I had the same problem with wooden planes and asked for advice here on the list back in July 2000. The following discussion revealed that darkening is due to the application of BLO and that there are better ways to clean old wood. I saved this thread and put in on my site: > http://www.holzwerken.de/museum/links/plancln.phtml > > Wolfgang in Munich/Germany > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Bill Rittner [mailto:wcrittner@c...] > >Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 1:16 AM > >Subject: Your Favorite Mrthod of Cleaning Wood Handles? > > > >My favorite method of cleaning wood tool handles is a scrubbing with green > >or maroon Scotchbrite pad wet with mineral spirits and wiping with a clean > >rag also wet with mineral spirits. When dry I wipe on a soaking coat a > >boiled linseed oil mixed 50/50 with mineral spirits. Let this soak, wipe off > >the excess. Allow to dry and add a coat of paste wax. > > > >The only problem I have with this method is that sometimes it will darken > >the wood dramatically. I would like to avoid this darkening problem. > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 132560 ---- From: T&J Holloway Date: 2004-04-24 01:08:58 Subject: Re: Bevel (Bezel) Article Ed and those bending over backwards to accomodate part naming preferences in an OldTools version of correctness: Whatever a bezel might be other than the ring around a watch face (and I *really* don't want to revisit that pointless discussion), the tool in question is not a "bezel." It is called a bevel (or, in Moxon's antique spelling, bevil). Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 132561 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-04-24 04:15:50 Subject: Re: A new bent knife Here's a link http://beaumontmetalworks.com/wheelsize.html It let's you take into account wheel size and stuff and figure out how it will work on paper before you actually do it. Or what you need to accomplish a certain grind. BTW, I bought a set of diamond grinding bits tonight for making some custom chisels. For doing the internals I can't grind via more normal methods. I was shocked to find out, with all my files, I don't have any round metal ones at least not here anyway. And I found the diamond bits on sale half price. > [Original Message] > From: Jim Thompson > To: oldtools > Cc: oldtools > Date: 4/23/2004 9:30:33 AM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] A new bent knife > > The cant file that is as yet untouched is next on the list, and I do > intend to make at least one crooked knife. > > I haven't solved the problem of the knife edge angle yet. The angle > formed by the edge of the file is quite a bit greater than that needed > for a knife. Maybe it just needs a deeper hollow grind. I will find > out. ---- Start of Message 132562 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-04-24 10:51:50 Subject: re: project completion gloat Darrell I hate it when somebody points out that you are actually suposed to use these things. Excelent job! Thats one to be proud of. The problem is when you get the question " what are you going to do next year to top it? Steve The green you see on me is not BLO mold. ---- Start of Message 132563 ---- From: "Bill Ghio" Date: 2004-04-24 08:09:07 Subject: RE: Itty bitty Plumb hammer Steve, I have two ball peens in that size range. Mine are not marked for weight = but the heads are 2 1/2 and 2 3/4 inches long. I can't really say what = they are intended for, but mine find use for adjusting things w/ light = taps and, of all things, peening small rivets and such. One used to live = on my bench to adjust the blades in woodies, till I came up w/ and even = smaller brass hammer for that. I keep about six ball peens in graduated = sizes on a rack so I can pick just he right size for whatever I am about = to abuse. The overall length for head and handle on both of mine are 11 = 1/2 inches. Nice and long and slender. Who says tools can't be sexy? Bill On Maryland's Eastern Shore -----Original Message----- From: Steve lineback [mailto:stevelineback@c...] Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:34 PM To: oldtools Subject: [oldtools] Itty bitty Plumb hammer I finally got a chance to go rhrough a box of j%*k er parts that = followed me home from a flea. One odd thing was the smallest ball peen = hammer head I've ever seen. It has Plumb and 4 oz stamped on one side = and is less than three inches long with a head less than a half inch = around. What was something that small used for? Also since I have to = make a handle how long should it be? Finally is it a tool or a toy? Steve ---- Start of Message 132564 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-04-24 06:37:15 Subject: Re: Itty bitty Plumb hammer Steve That's not itty bitty. It's a regular sized machinist/.mechanics hammer. 8^) I have a jewelers pattern of about 1/2 oz. and it's a real working hammer too. A 4oz needs a handle about 12-13" long so figure 14 or so when roughting it out. I much prefer the swelled bottom, or teardrop type handle for hammers of this size as opposed to the usual straighter grip. A guy needs a lot of hammers and carving handles is not just quick, it's pretty satisfyin 8^) yours, Scott Steve lineback wrote: >I finally got a chance to go rhrough a box of j%*k er parts that >followed me home from a flea. One odd thing was the smallest ball peen >hammer head I've ever seen. It has Plumb and 4 oz stamped on one side >and is less than three inches long with a head less than a half inch >around. What was something that small used for? Also since I have to >make a handle how long should it be? Finally is it a tool or a toy? >Steve Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 132565 ---- From: pedger66@j... Date: 2004-04-24 09:50:47 Subject: Re: DIWTB? Galoots, Should I go back to the anteek store that has old Stanley 42 and 42X saw sets for 19.95 apiece and buy it/them? IOW, DIWTB? (Do I Want TO Buy?). I've got a new Stanley sawset that is OK, but are these better? Phil E. ---- Start of Message 132566 ---- From: sepost@i... (Scott Post) Date: 2004-04-24 08:51:28 Subject: Re: low-angle bench planes; > Jeff Gorman wrote: > > As a bench plane, my thoughts run towards inferior ease of adjustment > (especially laterally) Careful grinding is important, but lateral adjustment is the same as a wooden bench plane - a little tap of the hammer. > and amount of useable blade compared with the > standard Bailey pattern. As a hobbiest I doubt I'll wear out an iron in my lifetime. > > It seems to me that the low bedding angle creates too many design > problems and I wonder why such planes seem to be so enthusiastically > received. > > Ability to modify the cutting angle seems to be the principal benefit. They also provide solid bedding right up to the cutting edge. I'm really just playing devil's advocate here. I prefer wooden bench planes with a standard pitch (can't stand Bailey pattern planes) for day to day planing. I do have a low angled jack that sees enough use to make it valuable. I don't use it for endgrain since the small edges I'm likely to clean up are better suited to a block plane. I've ground the iron at 38 degrees, giving a 50 degree effective angle. It's unnecessary to nearly every board I plane but is handy to have around for those few that are being uncooperative and cry out for a jack plane that's a little bit better than my main user. I can't really see the value in having an entire stable of low angled bench planes but having one or two is a nice convenience. -- Scott Post sepost@i... http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/ ---- Start of Message 132567 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-04-24 10:22:25 Subject: Re: DIWTB? Phil, You do want the #42x, if it is in good shape. These sell on Eb*y for about $10-$15 usually (a rusty one sold yesterday for $8.50), but figure on adding another $5 for shipping. So I figure, $20, for one you can check out in advance, is probably worth it. #42x sawsets are frequently posted to Eb*y as #42, you need to #read the fine print and look at the pictures. Generally I see one about every day. Or you can buy one here, occasionally, and be assured it's working (but of course, spend more): http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/frameset.cgi?left=sawcare&right=/set- s/sets.html The #42 is worth $20, if mint and in the box with instructions. They appear at that price level, in that condition, frequently on the previously mentioned auction site. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Who's not at LFOD, and is not at all happy about it. Getting ready to set up a BIG zap tank. > Galoots, > > Should I go back to the anteek store that has old Stanley 42 and 42X > saw sets for 19.95 apiece and buy it/them? IOW, DIWTB? (Do I Want TO > Buy?). I've got a new Stanley sawset that is OK, but are these better? > > Phil E. > ---- Start of Message 132568 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-04-24 10:33:51 Subject: Re: Itty bitty Plumb hammer Hi Steve & Scott & All, Everything I've found in three references seems to support Scott's opinion that Steve's "itty bitty" hammer is really just a regular size one. The book "The Hammer" has pictures of numerous ball peen hammers whose sizes are hard to judge, but none are said to be smaller than others or for any special purposes. Salaman's Dictionary seems to show nothing special in the way of small ball peens. Sellens Dictionary has a single listing for ball peen hammers that specifically says they come in weights of 1 to 56 ounces. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132569 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-04-24 10:39:43 Subject: Re: Whitchor-Franklin Shaves and Lisston saw Hi Bret & All, I'm quite suspicious of the accuracy of Bret's observation or recollection of an HC Lisston mark on a saw-knife. Maybe H.& C. Disston? Such saw-knives were made by Disston as general use kitchen tools - not Civil War surgeon tools as has been claimed by one or more ebay seller. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132570 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-04-24 08:11:08 Subject: Re: Dance tips needed You put your left foot in, and shake that backside! Hop on leg and with your hands in the air and wiggle that bum Spin round and round and, and holler at the very top of your lungs and well, you know what comes next And just try getting that grin off your sorry old mug with a 6 foot crowbar!! 8^) I took posession of an old bottle yesterday yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 132571 ---- From: mimulus@p... Date: 2004-04-24 10:32:07 Subject: RE: Dance tips needed > Ditto. I feel like dancing because I just finished my first turning, a > wood > rasp handle that I also affixed a brass next nut to as a ferrule. fun > fun > fun Pictures! Pictures! Pictures! > I also did discover, the word Stanley on my wooden scrub plane along > with the dates of 1876 and 1922. Between that and the old No 6 and a > little knowledge of > my grandparents background I think I have some of the original tools > they > bought when they built their first house here in america. You gots gram(m|p)a's tools? Maaaaan, that is just the ultimate gloat, regardless of MJD/Epay prices. cur ---- Start of Message 132572 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-04-24 12:40:28 Subject: Re: Whitchor-Franklin Shaves and Lisston saw Bob, When I sold one of the Disston saw-knives on the bay a couple of years ago, I stated in my description that I had doubts about the idea of it being a civil war surgeon's tool. I got two emails citing authoritative reenactment documents that clearly identified these as surgeons' amputation saws. I refused to argue with the experts, since they pushed the price up to $70 or so. (I had originally paid $10 or $11 for it, because I thought it was a neat looking old kitchen tool.) For a year or two, I used it as a mini machete to lop small branches off trees in the back yard. But after awhile I couldn't resist putting it on the bay, after seeing so many sell as civil war tools. Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Nelson" To: "oldtools" Cc: "oldtools" Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Whitchor-Franklin Shaves and Lisston saw > Hi Bret & All, > > I'm quite suspicious of the accuracy of Bret's observation or > recollection of an HC Lisston mark on a saw-knife. Maybe H.& C. Disston? > Such saw-knives were made by Disston as general use kitchen tools - not > Civil War surgeon tools as has been claimed by one or more ebay seller. > > Best Wishes, > Bob ---- Start of Message 132573 ---- From: "William E. Payne" Date: 2004-04-24 13:52:45 Subject: aqueous parts washing Hi, Does anyone know anything about newer methods of cleaning oil, grease, etc. that are aqueous as opposed to solvent based? I've been looking at some of those "benchtop" models, but they seem to be all metal and for solvents. I just bought an anvil that is a mess...coated with grease... Thanks, Bill Payne ---- Start of Message 132574 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-04-24 14:09:07 Subject: Re: Whitchor-Franklin Shaves and Lisston saw Hi Frank & All, I've been waiting for Todd to chip in here. I'm pretty sure he's commented on this saw-knife as Civil War tool subject before either here or on the WoodCentral site. As I recall, he agreed there were some such cites in a Civil War reference book, but he disagreed and had some Disston catalog info to support his disagreement. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132575 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-04-24 15:53:21 Subject: Japanese Plane Problem Galooti, I have a Japanese plane that was given to me by a friend of my daughter. The friend buys old houses, refurbishes, and then sells them. He found the plane in terrible shape, inside an interior wall when he tore it down (the wall, not the house). It is 10" long and 2 3/4" wide. When he gave it to me, the iron (which is wider at the top than at the bottom) had been driven through the bottom of the plane and was sticking out about 3/4" below the sole. It had been that way for no telling how long and the part sticking out had rusted terribly. It took a lot of work, but I finally got the blade out. Once it was out, the mouth sides came back together and cracks on the sides of the mouth closed. There does not seem to be any lasting damage to the body of the plane. I ground off the rusted end of the iron and resharpened it. The problem is that now the blade is too short. because of the tapered shape of the blade. The only way to fix that problem is to grind the sides. Check out the pictures here - labeled Japanese Plane and Plane Iron. In the Plane Iron shot, you can see how much the iron misses reaching the bottom of the mouth. http://tinyurl.com/2n5rc Now comes my question (at last, they say). I know nothing about how Japanese blades are made. By having to remove about 3/4" of blade, have I gone past the useable part of the iron? Is there any point in grinding the sides get the blade to reach a cutting position? In fact, since the iron is also tapered in the other dimension and the slot it slides in is tapered, I would probably need to grind some metal off the bottom (bevel side) of the blade as well. Do I just have a new paperweight, or is this something worth playing with? Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ---- Start of Message 132576 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-04-24 21:57:07 Subject: Saw ID please A nice little panel saw jumped in the car as I drove by an antique mall. I can't get an etch but the saw nut is new to me.In an arc across the top Is Sheffield with patented under that. Warranted across the bottom.There is a shield in the middle with an A inside Trade on one side of the shield and mark on the other. Ring any bells with anybody? Not sure of the wood too dark to be beech I think but dosen't look like apple either.Very nice and comfortable handle but the wheat carving is a little large and coarse. Steve ---- Start of Message 132577 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-04-24 18:08:59 Subject: Re: Whitchor-Franklin Shaves and Lisston saw Bob said: > I've been waiting for Todd to chip in here. I'm pretty sure he's > commented on this saw-knife as Civil War tool subject before either > here or on the WoodCentral site. As I recall, he agreed there were > some such cites in a Civil War reference book, but he disagreed and > had some Disston catalog info to support his disagreement. > Wasn't that long ago either, the link is in the archives right here... http://archive.oldtools.org/archive_get.phtml?message_id=106452&submit_- thread=1#message Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 132578 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-04-24 15:36:35 Subject: Re: Bevel (Bezel) Article Tom: And what is your point? GAM in Seattle--- you wrote: Whatever a bezel might be other than the ring around a watch face (and I *really* don't want to revisit that pointless discussion), the tool in question is not a "bezel." It is called a bevel (or, in Moxon's antique spelling, bevil). Tom Holloway __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ---- Start of Message 132579 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-04-24 18:54:56 Subject: Re: Bevel (Bezel) Article Gee...all this talk about Bevel gauges and FWW got me worried. So when I was at the flea market this morning and saw one for $3 so I figured I better stock up. I didn't see any mark on it at all at the flea market, but I was pleasantly suprised when I got home and found the Disston & Sons mark on it (wasn't there just a thread about what other tools they made?) Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 132580 ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-04-24 18:40:13 Subject: Re: Bevel (Bezel) Article Tom: Thank you for the clarification. You are absolutely correct. Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "gary may" To: "oldtools" Cc: "oldtools" Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Bevel (Bezel) Article > Tom: > And what is your point? > GAM in Seattle--- > you wrote: > Whatever a bezel might be other than the ring around a watch face > (and I *really* don't want to revisit that pointless discussion), the > tool in question is not a "bezel." It is called a bevel (or, in > Moxon's antique spelling, bevil). > Tom Holloway > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ > http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 132581 ---- From: Ren Tescher Date: 2004-04-24 19:36:35 Subject: Re: oldtools digest: April 23, 2004 Greetings Genteel Galoots, I went to a garage sale on Wednesday. A small coping saw for $0.50, a Farwell Ozmun Kirk Gilt Edge saw $1 (painted, dull), a 2 speed Millers Falls Breast drill $1. The "big" purchase was a six foot folding rule that cost me $7, I'm not bragging about that one, as she wasn't willing to lower her price (unless I fixed her toilet B^). But I'm glad for the breast drill, my first, and when it gets cleaned up, it'll be staged on the pegboard next to the braces. It is missing something on the opposite side of the shaft from the big gear, I suspect a knob. If so, I'll probably turn one out of apple, or lilac. I couldn't see the breast drill in Roeders MF pages. The archives seemed to indicate that it wasn't a prize to most galoots, but it is to me. Have a great day, Ren Tescher Pine Island, Minnesota dona nobis pacem ---- Start of Message 132582 ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-04-24 19:46:10 Subject: Re: oldtools digest: April 23, 2004 Good luck with the toilet. I hate plumbing. Huck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ren Tescher" To: "oldtools" Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 5:36 PM Subject: Re:[oldtools] oldtools digest: April 23, 2004 > Greetings Genteel Galoots, > > I went to a garage sale on Wednesday. > A small coping saw for $0.50, > a Farwell Ozmun Kirk Gilt Edge saw $1 (painted, dull), > a 2 speed Millers Falls Breast drill $1. > The "big" purchase was a six foot folding rule > that cost me $7, I'm not bragging about that one, > as she wasn't willing to lower her price > (unless I fixed her toilet B^). > > But I'm glad for the breast drill, my first, > and when it gets cleaned up, it'll be staged > on the pegboard next to the braces. > It is missing something on the opposite side of the > shaft from the big gear, I suspect a knob. > If so, I'll probably turn one out of apple, or lilac. > I couldn't see the breast drill in Roeders MF pages. > The archives seemed to indicate that it wasn't a prize > to most galoots, but it is to me. > > Have a great day, > > Ren Tescher > Pine Island, Minnesota > dona nobis pacem > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 132583 ---- From: "Steve Knight" Date: 2004-04-24 17:51:36 Subject: RE: Japanese Plane Problem Now comes my question (at last, they say). I know nothing about how Japanese blades are made. By having to remove about 3/4" of blade, have I gone past the useable part of the iron? Is there any point in grinding the sides get the blade to reach a cutting position? In fact, since the iron is also tapered in the other dimension and the slot it slides in is tapered, I would probably need to grind some metal off the bottom (bevel side) of the blade as well. Do I just have a new paperweight, or is this something worth playing with? If that's the pic after grinding there is plenty of steel. The Japanese blade is usually about 1/2 usable. Just take a file or rasp the upper part of the cheeks on each side. Take a little off and put in the blade till it gets down a bit farther tap it in and see how far it will come out without too much force. Keep doing that till the blade is nice and snug but you don't have to beat hell out of it getting the blade out far enough. ---- Start of Message 132584 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-04-24 21:54:36 Subject: Another slope - Marking Gauge Question Oh geez....here I go. Sorry, this got long'ish. Beware it is loaded with signs of a Galoot starting to slide in way too many directions... Today I went to my favorite flea market. It is twice a year affair at at local fire house. I like it because it is the right mix of "just plain folks" and not too serious dealers - and it is in a rural enough area that you always find some tools. Anyway...I spent more than I expected on a bunch of stuff - more auger bits, a couple of dollars for some older Braces (one Millers Falls, one might be - I thank Josh Clark for the slight push in that direction after he showed me the brace he picked up at CRAFTS), two wooden spokeshaves (both by Philadelphia makers - ANOTHER weakness I am developing), etc.. On my way out I revisited a table and spied a multiple arm marking gauge I hadn't seen before. Now, I have a couple of gauges I use all the time - one I made myself, a SW era Stanley #61, and a longer unmarked one - and I never thought much about them. But this one at the flea was one of those tools that attracts you because it looks nice (older ones always seem to have that aura) and it show lots of signs of use, but very little signs of abuse. You can just seen it being used over years and years... Here are some pictures http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/images/gauge1.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/images/gauge2.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/images/gaugepatent.jpg My question are probably question for Ralph more than anyone, but after looking it over and studying Ralph's site (which is TREMENDOUS, by the way) I am a little puzzled by a couple of things. I am sure this gauge is a Stanley #71 - BUT there are two things that have me puzzled. (1) It has brass plates around the thumb screws AND the brass shoes (at least I assume those are what you call the brass shoes) (2) both arms are marked with PAT OCT.22.1872. This is slightly different from any of the markings listed on Ralph's site (he lists a PAT OCT.22 72 - but doesn't include the #71 with the list of gauges it is seen on). By sort of playing connect the dots on Ralph's site - my GUESS is this might a #71 that came out shortly after the 1872 patent was issued...but I'd like a more knowledgable opinion. Overall...I am really scared. Marking gauges? Now I am asking about marking gauges? When does this slope stop? How many directions can I slide at once? "Jane, stop this crazy thing!" Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 132585 ---- From: "Steve Brackett" Date: 2004-04-25 01:39:21 Subject: April 2004 LFOD Review GG's, WOW... yup thats the review. OK fine.. you want more detail.. I can tell. Tons of great tools, bunches of galoots, lots of good will. Over the two days I had the chance to visit with a number of my fellow New England Galoots (hi Sandy, Eric, Jim, Josh , Brian and Charlie). Friday's tailgating was pretty much a wash out (don't anybody tell that Wachusett Galoot (who had to work!).. I have him believing that its was sunny just over Nashua and that there was a tiny crowd and VERY low prices). In truth, the auction was VERY well attended either due to the weather or, as Martin put it on Sat. "we are all beginnning to see the inherent value in a well advertised auction" (probably a bit of both). As is probably true at most auctions, there were some deals on Friday and there were some tools that got prices that made the Galloterati gasp. Saturday was a great day for both tailgating and for the auction. I have to admit that as I walked into the auction (Lot 70) a half back saw began bidding ta $200. In the 15 seconds it took me to get to the door (realizing I was way out of my league) it was at $250.. final price $1700.. need I say more? Of course for persistent, hard working (plain lucky) Galoots there were deals all over the place out side. A couple pictures of my Millers Falls MIB finds, as well as the my great new NH tool purchase, a GORGEOUS Haselton rafter square (ty George!) can be seen at my webiste: www.bracketttools.com If you see Josh or Brian ask them about the great saws they got and if you see Jim Cooke (WOW.. this guy has incredible taste in tools) ask him about his new lil Bedrock, the reproduction Norris Smoother (absolutely gorgeus!), the Swiss made carving chisels. Of course I suspect Sandy's new finds are at his website. And Al? There was not one single tool there inside or out to stick in the electro tank.. nope.. not even one! Great Job Martin! ---- Start of Message 132586 ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-04-24 19:19:14 Subject: Re: Saw ID please --- Steve lineback asked about markings on a saw nut: > In an arc across the top Is > Sheffield with patented under that. Warranted across > the bottom.There is a shield in the middle with an A > inside Trade on one side of the shield and mark on > the other. This was a Atkins secondary line, if I remember correctly. I recall looking it up when I discovered those markings on a saw of mine. ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ---- Start of Message 132587 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-04-24 20:34:32 Subject: Re: Japanese Plane Problem Frank There was a great early FWW article in the second or third year I think, about kahna? The planes. The shorter the blade got the more they were cherished, chibi or something like that, I recall. Except of course you were supposed to wear them that short though years of care, the story goes. There was more about knocking out the steel from the front (bevel side) when the hollow back, (cutting side), wore away to the point the small edge was gone and a lot of other stuff about fractions of fractions of hollowing the plane sole too. The legend is tipping a board with the plane on it and getting a full width lacy shaving as it slides down by itself. Now that part I remember for sure! Not that I believed it, but it made a nice fantasy. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 132588 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-04-25 08:27:08 Subject: RE: Japanese Plane Problem : -----Original Message----- : From: scott grandstaff [mailto:scottg@s...] : Sent: 25 April 2004 04:35 : To: oldtools : Subject: Re: [oldtools] Japanese Plane Problem : The legend is tipping a board with the plane on it and : getting a full : width lacy shaving as it slides down by itself. Now that part : I remember : for sure! : Not that I believed it, but it made a nice fantasy. I suspect that Scott's scepticism is well justified. >From my web site - Planing Notes - Some Physical Data, the following: '.......... it appears that the cutting force on a 0.2in wide cutter, say a plough blade, when cutting a fairly hefty two-thou shaving in quarter sawn beech could be somewhere in the region of 3lbs'. The red-lined part of the graph allow a guess that for a 1 thou shaving the force could be a bit less than 1.5lb. Assuming that only an 1.6" of the width of a cambered blade is actually cutting, and the shaving is about 1 thou thick, it could be that (ignoring some fine points) that the resistance to motion (ignoring friction between the sole and the wood) is in the region of 12lbs force. (Yes, I know about Newtons). We don't know the legendary angle of inclination, I guess that only an impractically heavy plane could have a forwards-resolved component of its weight sufficient to overcome the resistance at the cutting edge plus sole-wood friction, sufficient to enable it to glide down a tipped-up board in the legendary fashion. But then, somebody might have succeeded, perhaps with a metal jointer (ie not a Japanese wooden plane) possibly forming a sub-thou shaving? Real success would require a contiuous shaving, allowing a few inches for the start Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 132589 ---- From: hb Date: 2004-04-25 05:15:57 Subject: Was: My Reward Is: List of Bits from the shoebox At the request of Mr. Love, here's a breakdown of the bits that were in the box of stuff that I got at the auction a week ago.... Russell Jennings #10, #7 2 unmarked #4's A Reamer by W. Deuse & Co. Stanley N1227 C.E. Jennings Bits from #4 to #16 (inclusive) Fulton #5, #5, #7, #8, #12 Fluted metal bits for a brace by S.T. Co. 1/4, 5/16, and 1/2 sizes FLuted bit for a brace "c" in a diamond 5/32vsize Clevland T. D. Co. 13/32 fluted bit for a brace GTD 1/4 inch tapered reamer and A Standard Vt Co. metal punch Most in useable shape, few in collectable shape, and one or two that I may need to work on before they can be used. All covered in a fine layer of rust, errrr, I mean patina. HB - reading alot about the de-rusting tanks lately.... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ---- Start of Message 132590 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-04-25 08:37:37 Subject: Re: Was: My Reward Is: List of Bits from the shoebox > At the request of Mr. Love, here's a breakdown of the > bits that were in the box of stuff that I got at the > auction a week ago.... > C.E. Jennings Bits from #4 to #16 (inclusive) I was only sort of half kidding, but, gee, it seems you must have the CEJ bits that go with my box. Pretty nice find. Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 132591 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-04-25 08:32:35 Subject: RE: Another slope - Marking Gauge Question I have the same exact date on the same marking gauge except that is all wood (it's a stanley #72) and in very very good condition. I believe the concensus was that the date was kind of a fluke -- put on there as some sort of accidental overprotection of patent rights or something like that. > [Original Message] > From: Bruce Love > To: oldtools > Date: 4/24/2004 8:57:19 PM > Subject: [oldtools] Another slope - Marking Gauge Question > Here are some pictures > http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/images/gauge1.jpg > http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/images/gauge2.jpg > http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/images/gaugepatent.jpg > > > My question are probably question for Ralph more than anyone, but > after looking it over and studying Ralph's site (which is TREMENDOUS, > by the way) I am a little puzzled by a couple of things. > > I am sure this gauge is a Stanley #71 - BUT there are two things > that have me puzzled. > > (1) It has brass plates around the thumb screws AND the brass > shoes (at least I assume those are what you call the brass shoes) > > (2) both arms are marked with PAT OCT.22.1872. This is slightly > different from any of the markings listed on Ralph's site > (he lists a PAT OCT.22 72 - but doesn't include the #71 with > the list of gauges it is seen on). > > By sort of playing connect the dots on Ralph's site - my GUESS > is this might a #71 that came out shortly after the 1872 patent > was issued...but I'd like a more knowledgable opinion. > > > Overall...I am really scared. Marking gauges? Now I am asking > about marking gauges? When does this slope stop? How many > directions can I slide at once? "Jane, stop this crazy thing!" > > > Bruce Love > Pipersville, PA > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 132592 ---- From: wayne.a.anderson@a... Date: 2004-04-25 14:11:32 Subject: level repair A few days ago, someone inquired about where/how to get a level repaired. I know this contact has been mentioned before, but it may be worth repeating. No affiliation, etc. etc. Just trying to network...as they say. Wayne ---- Start of Message 132593 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-04-25 10:23:40 Subject: Re: need a new slope Hi Jonathan & All, I'm so totally unable to get my head around Jonathan's problem that I'm thinking there must be some sort of user vs. collector aspect to it? Throughout about the last 25 years of my 30 year collecting career, I was constantly trying to decide which slopes to try to put some brakes on due to financial and space constraints limiting my ability to continue to progress down all of them that I was on. Looking for new ones? Incomprehensible. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132594 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-04-25 12:25:29 Subject: Flea Market find GG's, SWMBO is working all weekend (nurse), so I dragged the 3 GIT's off to the local Flea. Got there very late, 10:30am, it's hard to get going with 3 in tow. I did find a Stanley #43 sawset, full paint, fine, looks unused, cost $2. I passed on more late model Disston saws than I could possibly carry. I am trying to teach the GIT's about flea market technique, how look uninterested, how to avoid saying, "Wow Daddy, Look at that!", how to haggle, how to walk away and tell me what you want when we are out of sight, why it's not a good thing to say "Come on Dad, you already have way too many saws", and how to sneak the stuff into the house. All the important stuff that nobody taught me. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Still lamenting the missing of LFOD ---- Start of Message 132595 ---- From: "Chuck Lewis" Date: 2004-04-25 12:03:49 Subject: Re: Japanese Plane Problem Jeff and Scott surmise, somewhat jointly (pun intended): > Real success would require a continuous shaving, allowing a few inches for the start....< So, I guess we're heading for the "Gorman-Grandstaff" prize, huh? Someone willing to fund the endowment will get to specify the conditions and criteria. Anyone; anyone? Actually, the prize would normally be named after the benefactor, but "Gorman-Grandstaff" has such a nice alliterative ring! You guys can have first dibs on the funding. Chuck Lewis (Ahhh...'dibs'...does that one cross the big ocean, Jeff, or do you need help?) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Gorman" To: "oldtools" Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 2:27 AM Subject: RE: [oldtools] Japanese Plane Problem > > > : -----Original Message----- > : From: scott grandstaff [mailto:scottg@s...] > : Sent: 25 April 2004 04:35 > : To: oldtools > : Subject: Re: [oldtools] Japanese Plane Problem > > : The legend is tipping a board with the plane on it and > : getting a full > : width lacy shaving as it slides down by itself. Now that part > : I remember > : for sure! > : Not that I believed it, but it made a nice fantasy. > > I suspect that Scott's scepticism is well justified. > > From my web site - Planing Notes - Some Physical Data, the following: > > '.......... it appears that the cutting force on a 0.2in wide cutter, > say a plough blade, when cutting a fairly hefty two-thou shaving in > quarter sawn beech could be somewhere in the region of 3lbs'. > > The red-lined part of the graph allow a guess that for a 1 thou shaving > the force could be a bit less than 1.5lb. > > Assuming that only an 1.6" of the width of a cambered blade is actually > cutting, and the shaving is about 1 thou thick, it could be that > (ignoring some fine points) that the resistance to motion (ignoring > friction between the sole and the wood) is in the region of 12lbs force. > (Yes, I know about Newtons). > > We don't know the legendary angle of inclination, I guess that only an > impractically heavy plane could have a forwards-resolved component of > its weight sufficient to overcome the resistance at the cutting edge > plus sole-wood friction, sufficient to enable it to glide down a > tipped-up board in the legendary fashion. > > But then, somebody might have succeeded, perhaps with a metal jointer > (ie not a Japanese wooden plane) possibly forming a sub-thou shaving? > > > Jeff > -- > Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK > http://www.amgron.clara.net > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132596 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-04-25 13:28:34 Subject: Re: need a new slope >I'm so totally unable to get my head around Jonathan's problem that I'm >thinking there must be some sort of user vs. collector aspect to it? >Throughout about the last 25 years of my 30 year collecting career, I >was constantly trying to decide which slopes to try to put some brakes >on due to financial and space constraints limiting my ability to >continue to progress down all of them that I was on. Looking for new >ones? Incomprehensible. > >Best Wishes, Bob Hi Bob and all, I have that sinking feeling I'm headed towards the slope that Bob's on, but not quite yet. I've been having some fun learning about drawknives and axes..once you have a tool, you gotta learn to sharpen and use it eh...Definitely would like a side ax , a big ole slick, and some green woodworking tools. Don't have nearly enough spokeshaves or travishers, and who knows, I might even make a chair someday. Being a good boyscout, I must be prepared. The real fun has been opening new horizons and discovering new tools that were previously unknown to me. There's nothing like holding a tool in your hands and unlocking it's hidden secrets while learning how to use it. Thank's to all who have contributed and supplied the grease and a good shove. BTW - I watched a show on turning the other night on DIY and let's just say....this looks like a great creative outlet......think swmbo will agree???? Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 132597 ---- From: "Steve Brackett" Date: 2004-04-25 18:51:57 Subject: re: Flea Market find sounds like with a little moretraning we will be able to hook the Wachusets GITS up with Eric's Mom (armed with her drawings of "good"tools)... let them yard sale and go to the FM's .. and we can all sit back at the house and talk tools... I like this idea! oh yea.. my flea market fins... M_F 13 with true Barber chuck.. M_F (I thnk its a 26) with a weird chuck I have yet to identify... and a 3rd as yet unidentified brace..(need to get Pearson out for this one). grand total $ 3.50.... and I didn't have to past up any more than ten saws! ---- Start of Message 132598 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-04-25 13:20:57 Subject: Bowl turnings and... I have finished turning 6 bowls now, and the learning curve is getting a little flatter. I have put up a picture of my efforts for your entertainment. http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/PhotoAlbum55.html There is definitely a learning curve for bowl turning, and I do not particularly enjoy the process. There is a lot of hard work involved, not to mention a lot of time. The finish sanding on the inside of a bowl is as much work as all the rest of the job. Just say, "It ain't easy!" Now I know why bowl turners charge so much for their work. And I don't own any of the specialized tools for this yet. I also added a picture of a small bud vase sent to me by English galoot Richard Wilson. It is a stunningly beautiful little thing made of 400 year old English yew. It came with a small folded card which described the location and a description of the tree from which the wood came. I am impressed. But now that SWMBO has seen this little gem, she wants to know why I haven't made any. That little chore is now on my honey-do list. I am looking for suitable chunks of wood. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 132599 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-04-25 16:23:18 Subject: Re: Flea Market find > uninterested, how to avoid saying, "Wow Daddy, Look at that!", how to > haggle, how to walk away and tell me what you want when we are out of sight, Yeah...when I take one or both GIT's to the Flea Market - it is hard to explain what I don't like them saying "Dad! Look, there's some old tools there!!!!" I not sure why - once I start looking it is obvious I am interested. What is more fun is when GIT #1 (who is six) picks up a tool (like a saw set) and the seller asks "do you know what that is?" and he begins explaining it to them (come on, he has watched Tom Law's video with me). At garage sales, the GITs always seem to get stuff given to them for free (which they like). Bruce Love ---- Start of Message 132600 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-04-25 15:43:58 Subject: Re: need a new slope Jonathan said: > BTW - I watched a show on turning the other night on DIY and let's just >say....this looks like a great creative outlet......think swmbo will agree???? > Jonathan, If my experience is any indication, I'd say she will love the first 20 or 30 bowls and then start asking what you plan to do with the next one you turn. Turning is so much fun, especially things like green apple, that bowls and bud vases tend to pile up on the shelves. But it is nice to see the gleam in her eyes the first time you turn four table legs, and she tells you she can't see difference between them. BTW, that's an indication that she has another table project coming your way soon. :-) Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ---- Start of Message 132601 ---- From: Esther Heller Date: 2004-04-25 17:02:03 Subject: FWW photos, was: Re: Bevel (Bezel) Article Larry Marshall wrote: > Let's look at the facts. The most expensive ads in the last issue > of FWW are being paid by Delta and the makers of Titebond glue. > Other large color ads come from Woodcraft, Makita, Sears, Bosch, > Rigid, and Forrest. By comparison, LN has a 1/8th page ad, whose > price pales by comparison to the others. If 'subliminal' > advertising is the name of the game, we should see Titebond glue > bottles in all the photos, not LN planes. Truth is, LN planes are > pretty. They make a nice 'woodworking' backdrop for the photos. > As one of the letters to the editor suggests, when they take > photos, they are all staged - the shavings and dust are removed. > FWW is in the business of creating a good-looking magazine as well > as a useful one. > There is another angle to consider.... Mike Dunbar will not use a tool in a chairmaking class that he can't tell you where to go and buy, so as to not frustrate beginners. I gather he stopped the famous cut-out-the-seat-in-5-minutes demo (using a 24" bowsaw, 1.75" thick white pine) for a couple years when the guy who made bowsaws that he likes quit due to health problems. Now that Woodjoy is making saws he likes, he does it again. In his book he used a special plane to finish spindles, my note from 1996 says use spokeshave, now that someone is making the plane he is using it again. LN planes are not only pretty, they are instantly recognisable to the newcomer _and_ have a reputation for not requiring a ton of fettling before use, a critical feature to someone trying to learn from print instead of a live teacher. I think the subliminal might be the author being photographed trying to leave some subconscious breadcrumbs for newcomers. At my last class in December Mike was bemoaning the fact that Rubbermaid has bought out Record whose vise quality had been declining since he opened the school about 10 years ago, and someone had come in with a brace that had some kind of 3-jaw collet incapable of holding the traditional pyramid ends on the school spoonbits. Anyone (especially outside north America) know any good sturdy reliable makers of traditional braces and big quick-release vises? I'm sure he has seen everything available on our continent, before Dave's shaves in 96 he was telling the Conover shave people about their qc problems before they were catching them, and that was when there were only 6-7 people per class.... The staff can name all commercial brands of chair tools at 15 feet, they have seen them all. I think his current brace recommendation is see an oldtool dealer, several of whom advertise in his magazine, and braces are still plentiful, but a big vise to hang on yet another Bob Keyes' quick cheap bench is getting messy. I'm nearly finished with a variation on that theme but am using two portable Record vises which also hold chair seats better. The one from 10 years ago is clearly better than the one from last year... Esther Heller bench built Windsor chairs galoot@l... ---- Start of Message 132602 ---- From: "Peter Williams" Date: 2004-04-26 07:41:08 Subject: RE: Itty bitty Plumb hammer > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve lineback [mailto:stevelineback@c...] >=20 > the smallest ball peen hammer head I've ever seen. It has Plumb > and 4 oz stamped on one side and is less than three inches long > with a head less than a half inch around. I too have a tiny ball pein like that. I've had it since I was a kid. I don't know if it is branded. I must look. I use it for light mechanical jobs like inserting steel dowel pins, driving a small pin punch, etc. --=20 Peter Williams - Geelong ---- Start of Message 132603 ---- From: "Daniel E.L. Yurwit" Date: 2004-04-25 19:05:52 Subject: Re: WTB or drawings of - a timber scribe Richard, I haven't seen a public response so.... None for sale (of course they're all "users!"), but I can provide photographs of a variety of styles, along with measurements, if that would be helpful. You don't even want to think about seeing my "diagramming" skills. Dan, in NJ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "oldtools" Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 10:56 AM Subject: [oldtools] WTB or drawings of - a timber scribe Anyone have a spare - or a measured diagram? One of those scribes with which framers mark their timbers - with the tight little curvy end that peels out a little shaving. ? Trade or cash available. . --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 132604 ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-04-25 19:23:35 Subject: Flea technique backfired today .... Went early this morning up to one of our favorite towns for anteeking & flea browsing. Thought I might get lucky, as it was a big flea market weekend and some of our brethren are up in New England. Several good tool table spreads, but most things were too good / too spendy for me although I was more than happy to paw through them as there were a number of items I had never seen before. In particular, there were more corner braces in one place than I had ever seen before; I counted six for the day, including one with a lot of ferrous oxide and a bunged up chuck, but a nice wood handle held together with pewter rings. A few more circular planes and unusual scrapers than I typically see too, and a bunch of NIB/NOS stuff. Since we rarely get to this place early, we usually browse for a while and when people are beginning to pack up, I'll show up again and see if I can get a better price and save the seller the bother of packing my target items. Would have worked today if the heavens hadn't opened up and everybody cleared out faster than I could get back across some 500 feet of tables, aisles & people hustling to get out of the rain. Had my eye on two near complete boxed sets of Russell Jennings bits and a real nice Sargent smooth plane (Bailey #3 size), but 'he' was packed up and gone before I could get back there. Strategy had already worked very well on a guy with a bushel basket of mostly used-up saws, as I did manage to snag a #4 Disston in fair shape for $3. Wind and cold were misery for him as he hadn't come dressed for the weather, and he was ready to leave and didn't want to take home as much as he brought. That 14 inch #4 came home, where I cleaned it, retoothed it, set it, and filed it sharp in about 90 minutes, and now I have another user backsaw. Disstonian Institute site helped in pegging it to 1905-1917. Could have been a better day if the weather had cooperated a leeeetle bit more. Wife struck out on her anteeking, but sprung for another new leather purse at her favorite leather worker's booth, so she took the prize for spending $$ for the day. Charlie Driggs Newark DE ---- Start of Message 132605 ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-04-25 19:25:48 Subject: Radio-based clock works? A bit off-topic, but I hope not too far out of bounds: I'm planning to build a [OTContent==> shaker wall-clock soon and would like to use one of those radio-controlled clock works (i.e. the kind that monitors the WWV transmitter in Colorado and periodically updates the time) Has anyone ever used one of these? If so, what was your experience? As I say, I'd like to use one, but if it's not going to worth the hassle, I'll find something else. Thanks Nichael [P.S. Please note: I had intended to send this out earlier, but I don't recall if I did. Moreover I recently suffered a machine-crash which took about a years worth of e-mail archives with it. So, if this is a repeat, my apologies.] ---- Start of Message 132606 ---- From: "M.Stadulis" Date: 2004-04-25 19:47:09 Subject: Re: Radio-based clock works? Nichael, I can't picture a digital Shaker clock......;o) Regards, Michael Stadulis Gloucester County, New Jersey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nichael Cramer" To: "oldtools" Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 7:25 PM Subject: [oldtools] Radio-based clock works? > A bit off-topic, but I hope not too far out of bounds: > > I'm planning to build a [OTContent==> shaker wall-clock soon and would like > to use one of those radio-controlled clock works (i.e. the kind that > monitors the > WWV transmitter in Colorado and periodically updates the time) > > Has anyone ever used one of these? If so, what was your experience? > > As I say, I'd like to use one, but if it's not going to worth the hassle, > I'll find something else. > > Thanks > Nichael > > [P.S. Please note: I had intended to send this out earlier, but I don't > recall if I did. > Moreover I recently suffered a machine-crash which took about a years worth > of e-mail archives with it. So, if this is a repeat, my apologies.] > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132607 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-04-25 19:47:53 Subject: Re: need a new slope > to sharpen and use it eh...Definitely would like a side ax , a > big ole slick, and some green woodworking tools. Don't have Jonathan, do you (or anyone else here) have Bob Alexander's video n making a chair from greenwood? I was on ALP's site, trying to buy a copy of Tod Herrli's planemaking video (after you spend a couple hours reading everything Scott Post has on his site you just HAVE to buy this video) and I saw the chair video. From the clips it looks like fun. Besides, my neighbor's got a couple green trees that generate way too many leaves in my yard every fall. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132608 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-04-25 19:54:31 Subject: Re: Bowl turnings and... > getting a little flatter. I have put up a picture of my efforts > for your entertainment. Really nice, Jim. That beer bottle you turned is magnifcent too! It looks so real. > There is definitely a learning curve for bowl turning, and I do Yeah...but since you have a gazillion wood turning tools it's probably fun. > involved, not to mention a lot of time. The finish sanding on the > inside of a bowl is as much work as all the rest of the job. More, cuz you end up smoothing end-grain. > much for their work. And I don't own any of the specialized tools > for this yet. Wow...so you're spinning the wood on your finger while jabbing at it with that bent knife you just made (GD&R)? > I also added a picture of a small bud vase sent to me by English > galoot Richard Wilson. It is a stunningly beautiful little thing > made of 400 year old English yew. Shazaam!!! Sure would like to find some of that English yew. Pretty stuff. So is Richard's bud vase. > why I haven't made any. That little chore is now on my honey-do > list. I am looking for suitable chunks of wood. This is the problem I've had thus far. I have no problems with turning wood for my miniatures but trying to find stock over 2"dia has been a challenge. Rumor has it there's a place a couple hours from me that I need to visit, though. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132609 ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-04-25 20:22:27 Subject: Re: Another slope - Marking Gauge Question On Saturday 24 April 2004 08:54 pm, Bruce Love wrote: > I am sure this gauge is a Stanley #71 - BUT there are two things > that have me puzzled. You are correct-- it is a Stanley #71. > (1) It has brass plates around the thumb screws AND the brass > shoes (at least I assume those are what you call the brass shoes) The shoes are what is covered by the 1872 patent. The brass around the thumbscrews, however, is a user add-on. My guess is the wood threads stripped, so the user added the brass so the screw would have something to grab. > (2) both arms are marked with PAT OCT.22.1872. This is slightly > different from any of the markings listed on Ralph's site > (he lists a PAT OCT.22 72 - but doesn't include the #71 with > the list of gauges it is seen on). The mark on my page is usually found on the head of #76 and #77, so I assumed it was simply for the split bar mortise gage. I've never seen this mark on the arm before. Usually the 1872 patent mark is in tiny print (often upside down) on the head. > Overall...I am really scared. Marking gauges? Now I am asking > about marking gauges? When does this slope stop? How many > directions can I slide at once? "Jane, stop this crazy thing!" Take it from someone who's been there-- marking gages are *dangerous*, and best avoided. It starts out with a Stanley #71, and the next thing you know you are lusting after a Brown and Berry, and creating databases to keep track of patent numbers. Run away, while you still can... ;-) ---- Start of Message 132610 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-04-26 01:56:41 Subject: Raising an etch I know that somewhere on the Porch or elsewher I read about a trick of using shoe polish to raise a saw etch. Did anybody else see it and remember the tecnique and what kind of polish? Steve ---- Start of Message 132611 ---- From: "Christopher Otto" Date: 2004-04-26 02:06:40 Subject: re: Raising an etch If memory serves, someone mentioned using that black runny stuff in those bottles with a sponge applicator. Since I don't actually own any shoes that need polishing, I used permanent marker with good results the one time I felt like darkening an etch. Wiped the marker over the etch a couple times until it was good and dark, rubbed it in the direction of the "grain", very lightly, with some 600 grit SiC paper on a block until the ink was only left in the etch, and paste-waxed the blade. It worked well... ---- Start of Message 132612 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-04-26 07:39:24 Subject: RE: Japanese Plane Problem : -----Original Message----- : From: Chuck Lewis [mailto:clewis@k...] : Sent: 25 April 2004 18:04 : To: Jeff Gorman; oldtools : Subject: Re: [oldtools] Japanese Plane Problem : : : : : Jeff and Scott surmise, somewhat jointly (pun intended): : : > Real success would require a continuous shaving, allowing a : few inches for : the start....< : : So, I guess we're heading for the "Gorman-Grandstaff" prize, : huh? Someone : willing to fund the endowment will get to specify the conditions and : criteria. Anyone; anyone? : : Actually, the prize would normally be named after the benefactor, but : "Gorman-Grandstaff" has such a nice alliterative ring! You : guys can have : first dibs on the funding. I, for one, await the outcome with interest! : : Chuck Lewis : (Ahhh...'dibs'...does that one cross the big ocean, Jeff, or : do you need : help?) I fear that I had to look it up. We sometimes 'dib out' when paying, usually reluctantly - see version 3. Shorter Oxford Dictionary: dibs N. Amer.[Prob. rel. to DUBS int. & n.1] Demanding) a first claim or option. (Foll. by on.) E. EAGER You always get dibs on first ’cause you’re the oldest. dibs [Prob. f. DIBSTONES.] A children’s game played with pebbles or sheep’s knuckle-bones; the pebbles or bones so used. Money. slang. [Arab., prob. rel. to Heb. debas honey.] A thick sweet syrup made in Middle Eastern countries by boiling down the juice of ripe grapes. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 132613 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-04-26 09:10:20 Subject: Re: Scraper Plane Plans John Sawchak wrote: > A post like yours about burnt fingers and blood cry out for a plan I > recently ran across, I almost posted it here the first time to see > what others would think of it, but your post cements it. Here's a link > to a set of free plans and instructions for making an adjustable > scraper plane. You don't have to be scraper plane challenged, anymore. > > http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/fea.asp?id=1093 Quick reminder of a recent discussion, giving information about another scraper plane plan. http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_i- d=129812&submit_thread=1#message BugBear ---- Start of Message 132614 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-04-26 09:13:56 Subject: Re: low-angle bench planes Christopher Swingley wrote: > I find my L/N version works better on end grain than my 60 1/2, at least > when the end is large enough to handle a big plane. 2 words. Shooting board. BugBear ---- Start of Message 132615 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-04-26 09:13:56 Subject: Re: low-angle bench planes Christopher Swingley wrote: > I find my L/N version works better on end grain than my 60 1/2, at least > when the end is large enough to handle a big plane. 2 words. Shooting board. BugBear ---- Start of Message 132616 ---- From: "steve & caroline" Date: 2004-04-26 20:29:31 Subject: Slack & Howden plane After a long break from the list and also a long period of absence of interesting finds, I have a new acquisition that I would appreciate assistance in identification. It is a wooden forkstaff (spar plane, Jeff), ~8" long made by Slack and Howden, Liverpool. The name is stamped on the front of the body as well as the blade and has the number "2" stamped on the rear of the plane. I am interested in information as to the age of the plane. I assume being made in a busy port town that it was made for use by shipwrights, but I am only guessing here. Regards, Steve & Caroline Sullivan sullivan@p... (Adelaide, Australia) ---- Start of Message 132617 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-04-26 07:31:37 Subject: Re: Scraper Plane Plans > Quick reminder of a recent discussion, giving information > about another scraper plane plan. > > http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?mes >sage_id=129812&submit_thread=1#message Gosh...I've even got that book :-) Thanks. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132618 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-04-26 06:41:53 Subject: Re: need a new slope It is extremely fun as my five gallon bucket full of wood shavings that went out the door (with still 2+ gallons still on the floor) will testify to. That was only day two of me owning a lathe. Tools that have gone unused and without handles for years are now coming back into their prime including an inch and quarter Swedish berg chisel, a 1.5 inch very long 'n' nice socketed witherby chisel, a Buck Brothers chisel, as well as numerous rasps and files. I even turned a 6.5 inch bowl yesterday and managed to break my skew handle while doing so but luckily enough I had turned a much nicer handle the day before for a lathe tool in the traditional style that is about twice as long. So a few minutes later I was turning again with the same skew I had just broken the handle on. All you have to do is buy some old tools without handles and then you can justify the purchase of a lathe to SWMBO. It wouldn't hurt to turn her a nice bud vase like that one Richard made seen in Jim Thompson's group of pictures. Maybe a frame or two for mounting photographs of the GITs. > [Original Message] > From: Jonathan Peck > To: oldtools > Date: 4/25/2004 12:29:06 PM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] need a new slope > BTW - I watched a show on turning the other night on DIY and let's just say....this > looks like a great creative outlet......think swmbo will agree???? ---- Start of Message 132619 ---- From: tomthornton Date: 2004-04-26 07:44:38 Subject: radio based clock I have one I live in North Jersey I had to hang it in a west window so it could hear the signal FWIW -- Tom Thornton Cincinnati #3, Morristown N.J. USA Collector of old tools, specializing in Hand Cranked Grindstones ---- Start of Message 132620 ---- From: Bill Nowicky Date: 2004-04-26 04:49:38 Subject: Re: Bowl turnings and... If you really want to kill time then try segmented bowl turning. The good news is that you don't need to find large diameter chunks of wood ;) For example: http://www.geocities.com/billnowicky/woodworkingprojects/segmented_cand- y_bowl.htm > I have finished turning 6 bowls now, and the learning curve is getting > a little flatter. I have put up a picture of my efforts for your > entertainment. > > http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/PhotoAlbum55.html > > There is definitely a learning curve for bowl turning, and I do not > particularly enjoy the process. There is a lot of hard work involved, > not to mention a lot of time. The finish sanding on the inside of a > bowl is as much work as all the rest of the job. Just say, "It ain't > easy!" Now I know why bowl turners charge so much for their work. And > I don't own any of the specialized tools for this yet. > ===== MY PERSONAL WEBPAGES: http://www.geocities.com/billnowicky/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ---- Start of Message 132621 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-04-26 13:11:14 Subject: Re: Bowl turnings and... Jim is on a slope with no bottom. . . >I have finished turning 6 bowls now, and the learning curve is getting >a little flatter. That flattening out is because the slope is moving past the 'knee' to near vertical. a couple more bowls and the dark side just hoovers you into free fall. but hold hard. . > The finish sanding on the inside of a >bowl is as much work as all the rest of the job. A galoot needs help here, and the answer is in the sharpening. If you're turning the bowl correctly, then only a quick, but thorough, use of abrasives is necessary. I don't expect to spend more than a couple of minutes with abrasives to finish. Someone else suggested that you're working end-grain, which is partly true, but bowls are usually turned from boards, so you are cutting into end grain only on two quadrants. Keys to good work are to have *very* sharp tools ( using a device not mentioned here I'm doing some commisions for which the stock is sections of telegraph pole, and although this is softwood, I find I re-sharpen 3 or 4 times before I get to finishing cuts) I see far too much work from newcomers to the sport which is badly finished, with too much reliance (and sweat and energy) on use of abrasives to refine the work. Your target is to deliver work from the tool, and to do so needs a) correctly sharpened tools b) correct presention of the sharp bit to the surface - allowing for the dynamics of the angles and circularity and grain crossings c) a gentle touch with a (freshly) sharpened gouge to finish. then just dust over quickly with 150, 240, 320, 400, 600 grit abrasive, wipe over with your choice of finish, and Robert's is back in the family. It sounds as if you need to touch up your gouges for the finish cut, and go very lightly. try taking a long ground spindle ground from centre to circumference as a finish cut. Bowl gouges are good for initial shaping, but I find the angles wrong for some final work. FWIW, I found that a couple of hours being an apprentice with someone pointing out some obvious ways of holding the tools was worth a month of making shavings. I recommend you find a tutor at least once if you're having difficulty. Or visit my school of woodturning - make a stool from a tree coming up soon. . . Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot and glebe maker. . . --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 132622 ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 2004-04-26 08:14:34 Subject: Re: Radio-based clock works? Referee blows the whistle and rules the play out of bounds (similar to a yellow card, Jeff). Further ruling is all replies go direct to: nichael@s... PLAY ON! Listmoms and referees, Ralph and Steve -----Original Message----- From: Nichael Cramer Sent: Apr 25, 2004 7:25 PM To: oldtools Subject: [oldtools] Radio-based clock works? A bit off-topic, but I hope not too far out of bounds: ---- Start of Message 132623 ---- From: "Tony Zaffuto" Date: 2004-04-26 08:29:26 Subject: Cooke's Saw Sharpening Service Gentlemen, This past Saturday, I received via USPS, the return of two saws I had Steve Cooke sharpen. To say the least, I am very pleased. The first saw was a small Disston backsaw, sharpened to 15 tpi, crosscut. It performed flawlessly in some figured cherry and some pine I was using on a Shake style chest. This little Disston is well on its way to becoming my favorite "goto" saw. The other saw was a D7 rip saw, filed to 5-1/2 tpi. I did a couple of quick "test cuts" with it, and again, I am very pleased. Steve's address is: Cooke's Sharpening Service, 3151 W. Market St., York, PA 17404. Telephone (717) 793-9527. I have no connection or affiliation with Steve--just that I am a very pleased customer! Tony Z. ---- Start of Message 132624 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-04-26 08:22:43 Subject: RE: Bowl turnings and... Nice stuff, I know a lot of the turners use Super Glue finish to help strengthen wood to avoid pieces falling out like that one. I turned my first bowl yesterday, though it is nothing compared to the ones you posted. It was just a cutoff of a old, very well seasoned 2 by 8 fir cutoff. BLO and burnishing for the finish. Should make a nice change dish, though. My main "problem" seems to be that I am in such a location that any removed trees are disposed of extremely quickly. I can not find any good green spare firewood laying around! > [Original Message] > From: Jim Thompson > To: oldtools > Date: 4/25/2004 3:22:41 PM > Subject: [oldtools] Bowl turnings and... > > I have finished turning 6 bowls now, and the learning curve is getting > a little flatter. I have put up a picture of my efforts for your > entertainment. > > http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/PhotoAlbum55.html > > There is definitely a learning curve for bowl turning, and I do not > particularly enjoy the process. There is a lot of hard work involved, > not to mention a lot of time. The finish sanding on the inside of a > bowl is as much work as all the rest of the job. Just say, "It ain't > easy!" Now I know why bowl turners charge so much for their work. And > I don't own any of the specialized tools for this yet. > > I also added a picture of a small bud vase sent to me by English galoot > Richard Wilson. It is a stunningly beautiful little thing made of 400 > year old English yew. It came with a small folded card which described > the location and a description of the tree from which the wood came. I > am impressed. > > But now that SWMBO has seen this little gem, she wants to know why I > haven't made any. That little chore is now on my honey-do list. I am > looking for suitable chunks of wood. > > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 132625 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-04-26 09:36:30 Subject: Re: need a new slope Hi Larry & All, Just in case it helps in the search - it's Ben rather than Bob Alexander who did the green wood chair making video and book. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132626 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-04-26 09:40:56 Subject: Re: Slack & Howden plane Hi Steve & All, Per the Goodman/Rees British planemaker book, Slack & Howden worked 1841-1924-. However, directories only listed them as plane makers from 1867 on after prior listings as edge-tool and saw makers. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132627 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-04-26 06:41:02 Subject: Re: Bowl turnings and... The link didn't work for me. But I am definitely interested. There =20 seems to be a never ending variety of things you can do in a lathe. On Monday, April 26, 2004, at 04:49 AM, Bill Nowicky wrote: > If you really want to kill time then try segmented bowl turning. The =20= > good > news is that you don't need to find large diameter chunks of wood ;) > > For example: > > http://www.geocities.com/billnowicky/woodworkingprojects/=20 > segmented_candy_bowl.htm > >> I have finished turning 6 bowls now, and the learning curve is = getting >> a little flatter. I have put up a picture of my efforts for your >> entertainment. >> >> http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/PhotoAlbum55.html >> >> There is definitely a learning curve for bowl turning, and I do not >> particularly enjoy the process. There is a lot of hard work involved, >> not to mention a lot of time. The finish sanding on the inside of a >> bowl is as much work as all the rest of the job. Just say, "It ain't >> easy!" Now I know why bowl turners charge so much for their work. = And >> I don't own any of the specialized tools for this yet. >> > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > MY PERSONAL WEBPAGES: http://www.geocities.com/billnowicky/ > > > > =09 > =09 > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25=A2 > http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=3Doldtools > ---- Start of Message 132628 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-04-26 07:03:39 Subject: Re: Bowl turnings and... I am going to start looking for a tutor. It is obvious to me from the amount of work I have put into the inside of the bowls that I am missing a crucial piece of information. People could not be doing this for fun if they were doing what I have been doing. Like almost everything else, you can eventually learn without any instruction, but it is SO much easier when you have an expert to show you your errors. I do want to get better at this. Thanks, Richard. On Monday, April 26, 2004, at 05:11 AM, Richard.Wilson@s... wrote: > > FWIW, I found that a couple of hours being an apprentice with someone > pointing out some obvious ways of holding the tools was worth a month > of > making shavings. I recommend you find a tutor at least once if you're > having difficulty. ---- Start of Message 132629 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-04-26 09:42:03 Subject: RE: project completion gloat Beautiful work, Darrell! > [Original Message] > From: Darrell & Kathy > http://www.workshopbuzz.com/gallery/images/283_FoSotKuAch.jpg > > http://www.workshopbuzz.com/gallery/images/283_ME1IYfHjJI.jpg > > So there it is. Once again I've built something nice that > won't be around to show off to anyone. Well, at least I > got a few pictures, and helped out a worthwhile cause. > > Let's just say > "It was fun, but next year I'll make a candle stand" > > -- > Darrell > Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User ---- Start of Message 132630 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-04-26 09:44:03 Subject: RE: Itty bitty Plumb hammer If you ever find out let me know. I have a small hammer with a head that might be just an ounce or two but it is obviously built for really using, though I can't imagine what one can hit with a hammerhead the size of a pencil eraser. > [Original Message] > From: Steve lineback > To: oldtools > Date: 4/23/2004 7:41:50 PM > Subject: [oldtools] Itty bitty Plumb hammer > > I finally got a chance to go rhrough a box of j%*k er parts that followed me home from a flea. One odd thing was the smallest ball peen hammer head I've ever seen. It has Plumb and 4 oz stamped on one side and is less than three inches long with a head less than a half inch around. What was something that small used for? Also since I have to make a handle how long should it be? Finally is it a tool or a toy? > Steve > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 132631 ---- From: "Bramel, Jim" Date: 2004-04-26 10:44:03 Subject: RE: need a new slope Not sure what I missed on the "new slope", probably got my=20 head in my you know what, but here is a link for John=20 Alexander and the green wood chairs - http://www.woodworking.org/WC/Garchive01/7_10bradleyvideo.html -----Original Message----- From: Bob Nelson [mailto:reeinelson@w...]=20 Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 8:37 AM To: oldtools Cc: oldtools Subject: Re: [oldtools] need a new slope Hi Larry & All, Just in case it helps in the search - it's Ben rather than Bob Alexander who did the green wood chair making video and book. Best Wishes, Bob=20 ---- Start of Message 132632 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-04-26 15:49:37 Subject: Re: Bowl turnings and... Now the turning box is opened we're all wanting to make bowls on our reciprocating lathes. . bowls on a pole lathe should be coming up later this year - Restoration of a chunky PL is scheduled for a couple of months time. back to the plot John privately asked . . . >Approximately what grit do you sharpen a HSS lathe tool to=3F Over here mos= t >people are using this wolverine grinding jig and a varigrind jig within >that with a white wheel (which is a soft bond 120 grit wheel), but I think >that sounds and looks much too coarse so I took my tools to the old >oilstones and that seemed much better. and I hope he won't mind if I go public on the answer, which is.. I discovered I was using an 80 grit carborundum wheel for roughing gouges and parting tools. Applied little and often. finishing tools get a tickle from a ruby wheel which is probably around the 120 mark, maybe 150. If I could fix the issues about shaft diameters and wheel centres that I've acquired with a new egrinder then I'll try an 8" white, for the ruby wheel is getting a bit small, as it's a very soft composition. and the skew gets looked at on a flat horizontal whetstone, even though its HSS, for I don't want any bevel - not at all, none, zero. I may use a hand held diamond card to enliven a finish tool for the final cutting, but not often. and next >I was shocked when I first saw the angle on a bowl gouge >-- my thought was "That's not a cutting tool, that's a scraper!". IIRC, my bowl gouges are probably about 45 degrees, but then they're used as if spooning out the centre, so the effective angle of the bevel to the flute is the thing that counts. The angle can vary according to the depth of bowl you're making and how far you want to get to the inside corner. Suppose you were to be boxmaking ( a pure hollow parallel sided cylinder with square bottom corners ) then you would quickly have to move to a hook tool or one of those stupidly expensive deep hollowing gizmos that remove more money from folks wallets than is good for them. But you could use a fingernail gouge just as well. The main problem is mass, and Jim T has the right idea by taking some dam* big bar and attaching a cutting nose. A long reach rest is a good idea too. >I am >doing some predesign research currently as preparation for making some >lathe tools from scratch. I came across a totally unique idea on one >website, serious lathes, where the guy said most tools made for >latheworkers are not made by those who use lathes. Naturally he proclaimed >himself a user and maker. I am trying to figure out if this is advertising >or sound reasoning. Specifically he has a bowl gouge that has an internal >grind of a V angle. Have you ever heard or used such a thing=3F Bosh! - not over here anyway. Most of the 'magazine turners' have tools made for them and named for them, so you can buy a set og 'Ian Wilkie miniature turning tools' or 'Dave springett hollowing tools' blah blah blah. You probably all know my views - old and simple - do everything you want with no more than 5 gouges. I could probably do everything with a 1/2 fingernail, a roughing gouge of some sort, a skew, and a parting tool. Darn - I've got one spare free choice ! OK - a hook or ring tool. (make your own hook tool. ) As to the V internal, well, in use you cut on one of the wings anyway so it's immaterial. I think I'd rather have the curve, so I can rotate the tool slightly without disturbing the shaving. and finally, At a questions session with (maybe) Gary Rance, one of the questions from the floor was "what tool would you use for cutting a reverse ovulate double flimwammy=3F" and the answer came back "Whatever I've got in my hand." Yes, I've learnt a lot by talking to and watching the experts. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot and noted tightwad where lathe tools are concerned. --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 132633 ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-04-26 09:56:41 Subject: Re: Bowl turnings and... Richard, Jim, All: > I am going to start looking for a tutor. It is obvious to me from the > amount of work I have put into the inside of the bowls that I am > missing a crucial piece of information. People could not be doing this > for fun if they were doing what I have been doing. > > Like almost everything else, you can eventually learn without any > instruction, but it is SO much easier when you have an expert to show > you your errors. I do want to get better at this. I started turning about 15 years ago. At times I do a lot of turning, and at other times almost none. I have learned a lot, and always enjoy it. A few comments: 1. I learned a lot from books and videos. There are some good ones out there, although some are dated. Craft Supplies (Provo Utah) used to rent videos. (No association here, just a satisfied customer.) Check you local library for loaners as well. 2. I learned a lot from members of American Association of Woodturners (www.woodturner.org). This organization has members from the greenest of Rookies to some of the best Professional turners in the world. There is a very strong norm in the organization of sharing knowledge and helping others learn. Their quarterly magazine is truly excellent and almost never fails to both educate and inspire. As Richard said, some professional instruction can be very helpful. There are many "schools" one can attend for weekend or longer courses. Local chapters of AAW often provide instruction as well, and can refer you to individual instructors. 3. I strongly reinforce Richard's comments on sharp turning tools. Once properly shaped, I smooth (stones) and polish (wheel) the inside curve of the gouge as smooth as I can (This is equivalent of polishing the back of a plane iron). Manufacturers often do a poor job of smoothing the inside surface of gouges. I then grind the bevel on a 100 grit (white or pink "friable") wheel, taking care not over heat the edge. I learned to do this by (oft painful) trial and error, and can now do it by hand on a fast (3400 rpm) grinder. A slow speed grinder and various jigs will give faster and perhaps more consistent results, but they will cost you at least an arm, if not an arm and a leg! Grinding is followed by working the edge with a series of slips ending with a hard White Arkansas. I would not say the result is "Scary Sharp", but you can easily slice your flesh so be careful. I can usually touch up the edge with a slip about 3 times before I must head back to the grinder. Again, I agree with Richard, you will get much finer results with sharp tools in virtually all wood. The softer the wood, the sharper your tools need to be in order to minimize tear out. Sharp tools also seem to result in fewer catches and other tool errors. 4. Before somebody points out (and/or a Mom tells me to put a sock in it!) that we are talking about working with an electron consuming tailed machine, let me say that there is no difference between the tailed apprentice and the Human kind of power on the end of a great wheel or a spring pole or foot powered lathe. Tool manipulation, guidance, selection and maintenance are all hand work. My bowls are usually "hand rubbed" in Tung Oil or Danish Oil. Shellac or Lacquer final coat also receives a "Hand Rubbing": This all happens as the bowl is stationary, and my hands, body and all else in the world is rotating around the bowl at about 150 RPMs. (Albert taught us that it ok to look at the world in this Relative manner). Ok, back to work. If I get enough other work done, I am going to take a 30 turning break, just for the sheer pleasure of it! Best Regards, Chris Berger Who is grading a ton of papers as the semester comes to a close, and who enjoys the opportunity to listen, learn and chat a bit on OT as a welcome respite from the grading task, as well as its own inherent pleasure! OR: Just say: Shut up, Chris, and get back to work! ---- Start of Message 132634 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-04-26 10:55:57 Subject: Re: need a new slope > Not sure what I missed on the "new slope", probably got my > head in my you know what, but here is a link for John > Alexander and the green wood chairs - This is becoming funny (grin). So Bob's correction of my reference to Bob Alexander, where he said his name was Ben, was wrong. Clearly it is John and I wish I'd read your post and review before I finalized the order for Herrli's planemaking video with ALP as I could have ordered it at the same time. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132635 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-04-26 16:19:03 Subject: HSS and overheating, was : Bowl turnings and... Chris Berger told me to stop ignoring the inside flutes of my gouges in a thoughtful post which included > I then grind the bevel on a 100 grit (white or pink >"friable") wheel, taking care not over heat the edge. I learned to do this >by (oft painful) trial and error, and can now do it by hand on a fast (3400 >rpm) grinder. A slow speed grinder and various jigs will give faster and Yet according to my dim, and ofttimes failing memory, we can run HSS lathe tooling at a red heat without them losing their cutting edge. I've never worried overmuch with HSS tooling when grinding. Not so with the carbon steel tools we green woodworkers prefer, for they can take a keener edge, and be tickled on a conventional stone when far far from electron flows ( ley lines excepted ) perhaps one of our metalheadds would like to disabuse me of the notion=3F Richard Wilson Yorkshireman galoot No No I said DIS abuse.. . thanks --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 132636 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-04-26 16:27:36 Subject: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought So let me see, as I understand it, this is a contest to produce or tune a plane so that it will cut a shaving when sliding down an inclined board under its own weight=3F Open to all comers, Adjudication by photo and/or = peer group deposition =3F My only question is " What timber is the board to made from=3F" =3F - Suggestions=3F Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot who's other question concerns the all up weight of the plane --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 132637 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-04-26 08:45:29 Subject: Re: Itty bitty Plumb hammer > I can't imagine what one can hit with a hammerhead the size of a >pencil eraser. > What, you were planning to use a 12 pound splittin' maul on your grandpa's gold watch or your grandma's diamond ring? Every job has a tool yours, Scott Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 132638 ---- From: Al Perreault Date: 2004-04-26 12:08:06 Subject: Trip to Amherst Area of MA GG's, I will be traveling to Hadley, Hatfield, and Northampton, MA, this week for business. Is anyone aware of any points of interest which might interest a rustaholic? I may take time out for such activities during wor.... ah, I mean, during my lunch hour. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, MA ---- Start of Message 132639 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-04-26 09:34:45 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought >My only question is " What timber is the board to made from?" ? > Why, either lignum vitae burl, or paper soft, flat sawn row grian mahogany, you're choice! But even more important, what it the plane to be made from? Let's see, you start with a locomotive engine block and then start adding lead.............. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 132640 ---- From: "Chuck Lewis" Date: 2004-04-26 11:33:45 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought Umm...as sketched out by Gorman/Grandstaff and merely brought to the center of the porch by yours truly, the Gorman-Grandstaff Prize does indeed involve a plane (devised for removing translucent shavings from wood/timber) and another plane (devised to frustrate physics students) inclined at some angle to the gravity vector. Success criteria involving morphology of the aforementioned shaving and any other boundary conditions or constraints such as weight, species, angle of inclination, or use of anti-friction devices, as well as the judging methodology, are within the purview of the endowing agent. In other words: "You buy the prize...you get to write the rules"! Chuck Lewis ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "oldtools" Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 10:27 AM Subject: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought So let me see, as I understand it, this is a contest to produce or tune a plane so that it will cut a shaving when sliding down an inclined board under its own weight? Open to all comers, Adjudication by photo and/or peer group deposition ? My only question is " What timber is the board to made from?" ? - Suggestions? Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot who's other question concerns the all up weight of the plane --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 132641 ---- From: "Chuck Lewis" Date: 2004-04-26 11:45:52 Subject: Japanese Plane Problem Full marks, Jeff; "first claim" is correct. Chuck > : (Ahhh...'dibs'...does that one cross the big ocean, Jeff, or > : do you need > : help?) > > I fear that I had to look it up. We sometimes 'dib out' when paying, > usually reluctantly - see version 3. > > Shorter Oxford Dictionary: > dibs N. Amer.[Prob. rel. to DUBS int. & n.1] > Demanding) a first claim or option. (Foll. by on.) > E. EAGER You always get dibs on first 'cause you're the oldest. ---- Start of Message 132642 ---- From: Roger Date: 2004-04-26 11:48:44 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought Man this is going to give a whole new meaning to the "pine wood derby" of cub scout days past! Roger in AL scott grandstaff wrote: > >> My only question is " What timber is the board to made from?" ? > > Why, either lignum vitae burl, or paper soft, flat sawn row grian > mahogany, you're choice! > But even more important, what it the plane to be made from? Let's see, > you start with a locomotive engine block and then start adding > lead.............. > yours, Scott ---- Start of Message 132643 ---- From: Bill Kasper Date: 2004-04-26 09:48:40 Subject: Re: Bevel (Bezel) Article hayup. often takes forever to open, and sometimes "wdynamic.com" server not found. osx panther and safari. no difference using microshaft's exploder... bill felton, ca On Apr 23, 2004, at 6:07 PM, Matthew and Cathy Groves wrote: > Sorry to post on list, but please allow me to explain. > > Am I the only galoot who consistently has trouble accessing pages from > wdynamic (like in the tiny url below) ? If I am, so be it, no action > required, but somehow I'm guessing there's more people than myself, > perhaps > a lot more. > > Maybe we can discover some common denominator to those of us who can't > access those pages. > > I don't have any filtering software or anything that I can see would > cause > my problems. > > Anyone else? ---- Start of Message 132644 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-04-26 17:49:25 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought Chuck Lewis passes the mantle. . . >Umm...as sketched out by Gorman/Grandstaff and merely brought to the center >of the porch by yours truly, the Gorman-Grandstaff Prize does indeed involve >a plane (devised for removing translucent shavings from wood/timber) and >another plane (devised to frustrate physics students) inclined at some angle >to the gravity vector. Success criteria involving morphology of the >aforementioned shaving and any other boundary conditions or constraints such >as weight, species, angle of inclination, or use of anti-friction devices, >as well as the judging methodology, are within the purview of the endowing >agent. In other words: "You buy the prize...you get to write the rules"! >Chuck Lewis to which I say "I'll buy it" and this time in a literal sense. I'll offer a cup (species to be determined) to be known as the Gorman/Grandstaff cup, for whosever's plane takes the thickest shaving in a white pine (may need to be specific here) whilst sliding unaided down said pine inclined at less than, oh, 75 degrees. for a distance of 24 inches (in old money, Imperial measure) run up distance maximum of 12 inches. We may need to refine the maximum angle and definition of the material a bit, but lets see how we go - if there are any takers of course. Naturally galoot rules will apply - If you say you've done it, we'll believe you. Pictures and description are, however, a necessity, along with vital statistics of weight of plane, what it was fed on, training regime etc. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman galoot and inventor of the Richard Rules. --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 132645 ---- From: kjworz@c... Date: 2004-04-26 17:07:41 Subject: RE: need a new slope You should mention that the Greenwoodworking video was produced and filmed by a galoot. Anatol Polilo. I took John's class, and I can't recommend it enough. For details, go to www.greenwoodworking.com -- -Chris Schwartz Silver Spring, MD > Not sure what I missed on the "new slope", probably got my head in my > you know what, but here is a link for John Alexander and the green > wood chairs - > > http://www.woodworking.org/WC/Garchive01/7_10bradleyvideo.html > > -----Original Message----- From: Bob Nelson [mailto:reeinelson@w...] > Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 8:37 AM To: oldtools > Cc: oldtools Subject: Re: [oldtools] need a new slope > > Hi Larry & All, > > Just in case it helps in the search - it's Ben rather than Bob > Alexander who did the green wood chair making video and book. > > Best Wishes, Bob > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To > unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 132646 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-04-26 10:08:00 Subject: Re: Itty bitty Plumb hammer I just went out to the shop and counted, as best I could, my metal hammers. There are 37 of them out there in all different configurations and weights, up to 12 pounds. Now I am aware that this is as nothing to a serious hammer man, and I know a few of them, mostly blacksmiths. But the point of the story is this. The most used hammers out there are two 4 oz. ball peens, one a TrueTemper with a shortened handle, and the other a Stanley. These are followed closely by a Plumb 12 oz. cross peen. These three hammers are always on the bench. The others reside in a drawer which might get opened once a month. I have a whole set of whoop-de-doo fiberglass handle hammers that I got while I was still working. but I haven't touched one of them in 10 years now. On Monday, April 26, 2004, at 08:45 AM, scott grandstaff wrote: > >> I can't imagine what one can hit with a hammerhead the size of a >> pencil eraser. >> > What, you were planning to use a 12 pound splittin' maul on your > grandpa's gold watch or your grandma's diamond ring? > Every job has a tool > yours, Scott > > Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: > http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html > PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132647 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-04-26 09:51:11 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought I believe the wood required for this little exercise is called "unobtanium." Look for it at your local lumberyard. Should be a good supply on hand. On Monday, April 26, 2004, at 08:27 AM, Richard.Wilson@s... wrote: > So let me see, as I understand it, this is a contest to produce or > tune a > plane so that it will cut a shaving when sliding down an inclined board > under its own weight? Open to all comers, Adjudication by photo > and/or > peer group deposition ? > > > My only question is " What timber is the board to made from?" ? > ---- Start of Message 132648 ---- From: "Chuck Lewis" Date: 2004-04-26 12:29:16 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - the Richard Rules I knew there was a sucker...oops...swell fellow out there somewhere. Huzzah! Now, is this to be a perennial cup like Lord Stanley's hockey trophy, or just an annual? Chuck Lewis ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "oldtools" Cc: Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 11:49 AM Subject: Re: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought Chuck Lewis passes the mantle. . . >Umm...as sketched out by Gorman/Grandstaff and merely brought to the center >of the porch by yours truly, the Gorman-Grandstaff Prize does indeed involve >a plane (devised for removing translucent shavings from wood/timber) and >another plane (devised to frustrate physics students) inclined at some angle >to the gravity vector. Success criteria involving morphology of the >aforementioned shaving and any other boundary conditions or constraints such >as weight, species, angle of inclination, or use of anti-friction devices, >as well as the judging methodology, are within the purview of the endowing >agent. In other words: "You buy the prize...you get to write the rules"! >Chuck Lewis to which I say "I'll buy it" and this time in a literal sense. I'll offer a cup (species to be determined) to be known as the Gorman/Grandstaff cup, for whosever's plane takes the thickest shaving in a white pine (may need to be specific here) whilst sliding unaided down said pine inclined at less than, oh, 75 degrees. for a distance of 24 inches (in old money, Imperial measure) run up distance maximum of 12 inches. We may need to refine the maximum angle and definition of the material a bit, but lets see how we go - if there are any takers of course. Naturally galoot rules will apply - If you say you've done it, we'll believe you. Pictures and description are, however, a necessity, along with vital statistics of weight of plane, what it was fed on, training regime etc. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman galoot and inventor of the Richard Rules. --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 132649 ---- From: "Chuck Lewis" Date: 2004-04-26 12:32:57 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought Well, you know the 'lectron-eaters have their belt-sander races. Why not our own Galootish challenge? Chuck Lewis (the other Alabama Galoot...am I missing anyone?) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger" To: "oldtools" Cc: "oldtools" Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 11:48 AM Subject: Re: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought > Man this is going to give a whole new meaning to the "pine wood derby" > of cub scout days past! > > Roger in AL > > scott grandstaff wrote: > > > > >> My only question is " What timber is the board to made from?" ? > > > > Why, either lignum vitae burl, or paper soft, flat sawn row grian > > mahogany, you're choice! > > But even more important, what it the plane to be made from? Let's see, > > you start with a locomotive engine block and then start adding > > lead.............. > > yours, Scott > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132650 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-04-26 13:50:18 Subject: RE: need a new slope Hi Jim & Larry & All, I'm glad somebody finally got it right - Jim's John Alexander vs. Larry's Bob or my Ben. As soon as I saw Jim's correction, it dawned on me that Ben Alexander used to be be a big time tool dealer outside of Harrisburg, PA (before he died) and Dan Y. later suggested that was probably who I'd thought of. My excuse is that I got roused out of bed early this morning by a false fire alarm and was still foggy. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132651 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-04-26 10:51:26 Subject: Re: Bowl turnings and... I am obviously missing something here. How does a skew without a bevel work? I thought the definition of a skew included the bevel? Or did you mean back bevel? Help!!! On Monday, April 26, 2004, at 07:49 AM, Richard.Wilson@s... wrote: > > and the skew gets looked at on a flat horizontal whetstone, even though > its HSS, for I don't want any bevel - not at all, none, zero. ---- Start of Message 132652 ---- From: "Bramel, Jim" Date: 2004-04-26 13:58:07 Subject: RE: need a new slope I will have to send this to my wife. She will not believe I finally got something right. I better quit before this goes too far off list. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Bob Nelson [mailto:reeinelson@w...]=20 Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 12:50 PM To: oldtools Cc: oldtools Subject: RE: [oldtools] need a new slope Hi Jim & Larry & All, I'm glad somebody finally got it right - Jim's John Alexander vs. Larry's Bob or my Ben. As soon as I saw Jim's correction ---- Start of Message 132653 ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-04-26 13:00:34 Subject: Re: Bevel (Bezel) Article Me too. John Lederer Oregon, Wisconsin Bill Kasper wrote: > hayup. often takes forever to open, and sometimes "wdynamic.com" > server not found. > > osx panther and safari. no difference using microshaft's exploder... > > bill > felton, ca > > > On Apr 23, 2004, at 6:07 PM, Matthew and Cathy Groves wrote: > >> Sorry to post on list, but please allow me to explain. >> >> Am I the only galoot who consistently has trouble accessing pages from >> wdynamic (like in the tiny url below) ? If I am, so be it, no action >> required, but somehow I'm guessing there's more people than myself, >> perhaps >> a lot more. >> >> Maybe we can discover some common denominator to those of us who can't >> access those pages. >> >> I don't have any filtering software or anything that I can see would >> cause >> my problems. >> >> Anyone else? > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132654 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-04-26 13:58:46 Subject: Re: need a new slope On Monday 26 April 2004 01:07 pm, you wrote: > You should mention that the Greenwoodworking video was produced > and filmed by a galoot. Anatol Polilo. > > I took John's class, and I can't recommend it enough. > > For details, go to www.greenwoodworking.com Or for details about Anatol and all of his offerings (he did the Tom Law saw sharpening video as well), try this one: http://members.bellatlantic.net/%7Evze2nwp6/index.htm -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132655 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-04-26 14:02:02 Subject: Re: Bowl turnings and... > I am obviously missing something here. How does a skew without a > bevel work? > > I thought the definition of a skew included the bevel? Or did > you mean back bevel? Help!!! I believe Richard was suggesting that you want no secondary bevel on a skew. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132656 ---- From: "Mike Duchaj" Date: 2004-04-26 14:11:40 Subject: Re: Bevel (Bezel) Article Hi all, First, A hearty thanks to Jim Eston for graciously offering his site for the use of the galooterati. Please remember that he offers this service free of charge, and I'm grateful for his help. Many of us use it for pic posts and FS posts. I'm sure he's working hard to keep it accessable. Mike Duchaj Elgin, IL ---- Start of Message 132657 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-04-26 11:13:30 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought >There's always a clown, isn't there. > > >so the max weight >will be that of a Standard issue Cast iron No8 (jointer plane) > OK, next Let's suppose you had the spot on weight of a regular joiner, only shorter with more weight to the front and all the weight possible slung right down close to the track for center of gravity purposes, just barely up on well-broken-in, sealed #8 grade bearings......... and then a blade 1/188th of an inch wide (imperial, whitworth, metric or yankee, your choice)?? 8^) Got to get this thing standardized or all manner of imaginations will be running amok over the coveted Lionhearted cup. And yeah, I killed at the pinewood derby races so effectively (nobody else even close), that I was disqualified for breaking rules that weren't even invented yet! I broke none of the established rules mind you, and a guy has to figure everything else is wide open to interpretation. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 132658 ---- From: "martin" Date: 2004-04-26 14:32:35 Subject: saw sharpening Afternoon Galoots, Got me a decent disston skewback d-8 on the bay side,http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13875&item=32867 20481, anyway the seller description said that the saw was set and sharpenned by Cooke's Sharpening in PA.I was quite impressed with the sharpening,much better then i can do and better then my local sharpening service,just wanted to pass the word. Good Day ---- Start of Message 132659 ---- From: "Jon Endres, PE" Date: 2004-04-26 15:57:37 Subject: RE: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought This has got to be as easy as it sounds, with no particular rules. If the contest is open to any type of plane, any species of lumber, and must be self propelled, how hard can it be? Not that I have the time to play with something like this but: - sole of the plane should be Teflon-coated - wood should be something soft and straight grained - butternut, basswood, eastern white pine, soft maple - blade set to take an extremely fine shaving and beyond Scary Sharp - angle of slope approaching vertical - say 75-80 degrees - very narrow piece of wood but not under 1/8" - weight of plane enhanced so it will slide on its' own - side "guardrails" so that the plane will stay on track Sounds to me like a variation of the Pinewood Derby theme, only without the wheels.... Jon Endres > -----Original Message----- > From: scott grandstaff [mailto:scottg@s...] > Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 2:14 PM > To: oldtools > Subject: Re: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - > clarification sought > > Got to get this thing standardized or all manner of imaginations will > be running amok over the coveted Lionhearted cup. ---- Start of Message 132660 ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 2004-04-26 21:05:34 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought >At 19:13 26-04-04, scott grandstaff wrote: > >>>There's always a clown, isn't there. >>>so the max weight will be that of a Standard issue Cast iron No8 >>>(jointer plane) >> OK, next >>Let's suppose you had the spot on weight of a regular joiner, only >>shorter with more weight to the front and all the weight possible slung >>right down close to the track for center of gravity purposes, just barely >>up on well-broken-in, sealed #8 grade bearings......... and then a blade >>1/188th of an inch wide (imperial, whitworth, metric or yankee, your >>choice)?? 8^) >> Got to get this thing standardized or all manner of imaginations will >> be running amok over the coveted Lionhearted cup. >> Oh no - what have I started? Seriously then, I'm with Scott - if this is going to be a global shavings contest, then perhaps we need to lay out a standard for anyone attempting the ultimate tune up. Suppose we start with a regular Numbered bench plane, no heavier than a No8, full width blade, and allowing for any cambering, the shaving has to be 75% of the blade width for its length, and 24" long. 'Specials' not allowed in this class - so a No8 or an equivalent wooden bench plane. Some form of guides allowed - don't want nice planes doing headlong falls, do we. Richard ---- Start of Message 132661 ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 2004-04-26 21:08:29 Subject: Re: Bowl turnings and... >At 18:51 26-04-04, Jim Thompson wrote: >>I am obviously missing something here. How does a skew without a bevel work? >> >> I thought the definition of a skew included the bevel? Or did you mean >> back bevel? Help!!! >> >>On Monday, April 26, 2004, at 07:49 AM, Richard.Wilson@s... wrote: >> >>> >>>and the skew gets looked at on a flat horizontal whetstone, even though >>>its HSS, for I don't want any bevel - not at all, none, zero. Ah, now the thing about the skew is that the entire face is the bevel, and if it's hollow ground or has a secondary bevel, the controlling surface in contact with the timber which is stopping you digging in becomes very small, too small to work in fact. Naturally you *can* use a double bevel skew, but its action is from side to side alonog the work rather than 'in and out' so you want the bottom of the skew gliding along the work to control it, just as we are very fussy about the back of a chisel being flat, then we're doing the same thing with a skew. Both bevels are flat because we use both sides. If you only make right hand cuts, why then you only need one flat bevel - just as with a chisel, and you can hollow ground the 'top' or 'open' face IS this making sense - maybe I should do pictures. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman galoot enjoying evening april thunderstorms ---- Start of Message 132662 ---- From: hb Date: 2004-04-26 13:18:55 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought --- Richard Wilson wrote: > >> > Suppose we start with a regular Numbered bench > plane, no heavier than a > No8, full width blade, and allowing for any > cambering, the shaving has to > be 75% of the blade width for its length, and 24" > long. 'Specials' not > allowed in this class - so a No8 or an equivalent > wooden bench plane. Some > form of guides allowed - don't want nice planes > doing headlong falls, do we. Snip So then, would it be alowed to construct the ramp so as to allow the plane to build momentum before hitting the victim, I mean sample of wood? HB - wondering how to get the black stains off his hands after spending the weekend working with green oak on a variety of projects for SWMBO. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash ---- Start of Message 132663 ---- From: Al Perreault Date: 2004-04-26 16:56:55 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought > > HB - wondering how to get the black stains off his > hands after spending the weekend working with green > oak on a variety of projects for SWMBO. > HB, Rub hands briskly, on heirloom tablecloth. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot ---- Start of Message 132664 ---- From: Jim Wallbridge Date: 2004-04-26 15:29:28 Subject: Re: HSS and overheating, was : Bowl turnings and... On Monday, April 26, 2004, at 09:19 AM, Richard.Wilson@s... wrote in part: > > > Yet according to my dim, and ofttimes failing memory, we can run HSS > lathetooling at a red heat without them losing their cutting edge. > I've never > worried overmuch with HSS tooling when grinding. > > Not so with the carbon steel tools we green woodworkers prefer, for > they > can take a keener edge, and be tickled on a conventional stone when far > far from electron flows ( ley lines excepted ) > > > perhaps one of our metalheadds would like to disabuse me of the notion? > Richard and fellow Gallots Richard is correct true HSS can stand a number of hours at there tempering tempering temperature typically 1000-1100 F without any loss of hardness or other damage. True HSS are the T and M series in North America or those with about 7% or more of Mo + W. It is generally true that quenched and tempered steels are only harmed by heating to a temperature somewhat greater than the temperature used for tempering although unfortunately we do not always know what that is. jim (James ME Wallbridge P. Eng (retired).) Libertarian, Metallurgist, Wood & Metal Worker, Fly Fisher, Resident of Calgary, Canada's new head office location of choice. Permission is hereby given to use any or all information herein, as an attributed quote, unless the body of the message states otherwise. ---- Start of Message 132665 ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-04-26 18:20:39 Subject: RE: Itty bitty Plumb hammer Might be fun to make a tiny hammer with tungsten -- it's roughly 200-250% the density of steel, so you could make the head really small and still have it weigh enough to do some good. I may even have a chunk somewhere I can use.... Ken Meltsner ---- Start of Message 132666 ---- From: "Eric Beaupre" Date: 2004-04-26 17:40:34 Subject: RE: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought I always bleach my hands after working with Walnut. Eric snip ---- HB - wondering how to get the black stains off his hands after spending the weekend working with green oak on a variety of projects for SWMBO. ---- Start of Message 132667 ---- From: Onthelevelman@a... Date: 2004-04-26 20:03:59 Subject: LFOD, Nausha NH Hi All, Just one more report on a grand old tool weekend. The weather was fair and warm Thursday afternoon when we arrived in Nausha. There were several dealers already selling in the parking lot. I took my time looking but didn't buy a thing. After a great meal with good company I previewed Fridays auction until about 10:00 PM. I was up at 5:35 looked out and saw a friend passing below in the RAIN. I was out there around 6:00 and found a friends tent for cover. A dealer came buy with an interesting level for sale, my first purchase. I thought Fridays auction very well attended, possibly because of the rain. The prices were strong too. Then after dinner the dealer sale and preview of Saturdays sale. I saw several galoots and won't attempt to nane them all. The Sat. parking lot was strong with several more sellers than Friday. The Sat. catalogue auction was the better quality rarer items. I managed to stick it out until the end and I bought the original GALOOT hat item # 780. Anyone who missed Nausha missed a great old tool weekend. These are the storries you tell your grand children when they ask where you got that old tool. Rich Krzal, back home in Vermont ---- Start of Message 132668 ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-04-26 21:34:01 Subject: Re: LFOD, Nausha NH Rich said: > I was out there around 6:00 and found a friends tent for cover. A > dealer came buy with an interesting level for sale, my first purchase. Hey, Rich, you are amoungst friends and shouldn't be shy. You should be gloating in our faces on that level. What made it interesting? > I managed to > stick it out until the end and I bought the original GALOOT hat item # 780. Atta boy. > Anyone who missed Nausha missed a great old tool weekend. These are the > storries you tell your grand children when they ask where you got that old tool. Now you got me all hopped up for Martin to bring the show to Wilmington in a couple of weeks. Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 132669 ---- From: Jim Crammond Date: 2004-04-26 18:44:52 Subject: A Gloat and a Wrenching Question Fellow Galoots, I think spring has finally arrived in my part of the world, the oldtools seem to be blooming, finally. After a long period without finding too much rust, I attended an auction with a few tools on Friday, a MWTCA Area C meet on Saturday and another auction with some tools on Saturday night. The MWTCA meet was very enjoyable, as usual. I ran into fellow list members Gil Chesbro, Pete Mueller, Dave Tobbe along with several other friends from the internet. I acquired a set of Witherby turning chisels in the original box(the first Witherby box I've seen), a 2" Witherby gouge, a nice Chapin rosewood marking gage and an unmarked scorp. As always the highlights of the meet were the conversations with people as interested in old tools as I am. The auction haul included a Millers Falls #5 eggbeater, a Disston and Sons, Phila. 14", #4 backsaw, several chisels, a bucket full of wrenches, and my favorite item of the week end, a Luther #271, "Hummer" pedal grinder. The grinder is in good shape with only a little adjusting and lubrication necessary to get the grinding wheel turning fast enough to splatter oil all over my shirt. The only defect I've identified on it is a broken right tool rest and I'm looking at this as an opportunity to finally have a buffing wheel permanantly installed on a grinder. Finally the question, does anyone have any information about a W. H. Huston's adjustable wrench? It was patented Oct. 21, 1890 and other than a scale in inches on the other side of the handle, that is the only marking I've been able to find on it. I've looked in several books I have(none on wrenches) and searched the net a little, but haven't come up with any information. Jim Crammond __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 132670 ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-04-26 20:53:53 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought When we were kids the hand stains gave away the fact that we had been throwing walnuts at one another--strictly verboten but frequently done. A walnut in the green husk is a perfect projectile. Starting the washer with clothes in it, bypassing the safety switch with a piece of tape, rubbing our hands with a cut lemon, and then putting them in the washer to rub against the clothes as they were agitated worked fairly well. Mom used lemon juice/tomato juice on the stained clothes but I seem to recall my t-shirts all having light brown spots. John Lederer Oregon, Wisconsin (still the much oppressedyounger brother) Eric Beaupre wrote: >I always bleach my hands after working with Walnut. > >Eric > >snip >---- >HB - wondering how to get the black stains off his >hands after spending the weekend working with green >oak on a variety of projects for SWMBO. > > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > ---- Start of Message 132671 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-04-26 22:19:36 Subject: Atkins Diet GG's I just finished cleaning the Atkins saw I acquired recently. Cleaned to good user shape, big full straight blade, nice handle with full horns, the handle is big, and fits my hand like a glove, but the blade does have a good deal of pitting away from the teeth, on the back side. Unfortunately, the etch is gone altogether, there was significant rust when I started. Looking at my old catalog, the saw looks like the #400 skew back, based on the handle design. Is there any way to identify for sure? Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot I acquired the saw for just the handle, most Atkins I see have the upper horn missing. I figured I could use a spare handle. Getting a whole usable saw was a bonus. Not many Atkins saws 'round these parts. ---- Start of Message 132672 ---- From: Clif Palmberg Date: 2004-04-26 19:38:56 Subject: Bio and project completion Hi. My name is Clif Palmberg. I've been reading oldtools for a year and a half or so now, and figured it was time to ante up and introduce myself. I kept pushing it off, and decided when I finish my major project, I'd show that off, too. Vitals - Clif Palmberg, 26, happily married living in north Dallas, Texas (Little Elm to be exact). By day I am a project manager for a yearbook company. By night I am a wood torturer and do cruel things to unsuspecting pieces of trees for my own pure entertainment. I began woodworking when I was nine. My dad did it as a hobby, and I was signed up in 4-H (Kansas) for woodworking. My first project was a tic tac toe block that was mainly woodburning (that was quite the rage thinking back). That progressed through high school, with stops along the way to make a chest, stacking bookcase, grandfather clock, curved-front chest of drawers, headboard and a few other things. My dad had a shopsmith with many attachments, and we would find a way to use power for even the finest or most intricate of tasks. Insert college, traveling, first job, marriage, apartment, moving to our first home. I was reunited with my woodworking bug as I graduated college and made a nightsttand for my eventual wife. Woodworking in my youth, there was a few things I generally didn't like. The noise, sawdust, constant threat of being one wrong move and not being able to count to ten with your fingers. I discovered oldtools, realizied quality still means something somewhere, and there is a way to enjoy the smell of freshly cut walnut while still hearing the music in the background. The rest is history, as they say. ... Enough about me. The project that gave me pause to post my bio. What would you expect - a workbench! I'm a bit of a photo and web junkie (used to do photo professionally, do webwork on the side). So, I made a quick page on my bench. Check it out at: http://homepage.mac.com/maclif/shopprojects/workbench/ Ok - my bench vitals: 7' 1/2" long 2' wide 33 1/2" tall 3 1/2" thick oak top Shaker-inspired closed base enclosed tail vise shoulder vise Woods used: oak, walnut, southern yellow pine, cocobolo With the exception of two pieces of oak, the entire bench was made out of re-used pallet material or wood from my grandfather's farm (ok, cocobolo was given to me by a friend). Tools used: 90% hand tools (disstons, baileys, stanleys, and of course a whole lot more). My gloat - total cost of the probably 500 lb monster - $150 or so. Well, if you're reading this far into the long-winded bio, I tip my hat to you. Now, pass the spatoon. -Clif, Dallas Texas __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132673 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-04-26 20:35:18 Subject: Re: LFOD, Nausha NH Yeah Rich Dish it! Show us that level. Can't just gloat with no pic for us to short curcuit our keyboards over!! We need to tell you that you, well, you know what we're going to tell you when we see this thing. And the hat, you bought the hat? There's another photo-op right there yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 132674 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-04-27 08:05:48 Subject: RE: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought : -----Original Message----- : From: Richard.Wilson@s... [mailto:Richard.Wilson@s...] : Sent: 26 April 2004 16:28 : To: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - : clarification sought : : Since I seem to have provoked Scott into this, I can't help chipping in ............. : So let me see, as I understand it, this is a contest to : produce or tune a : plane Not produce, but tune a standard bench plane? : .................... so that it will cut a shaving continuous shaving? : ............................. when sliding down an : inclined board : under its own weight? Open to all comers, Adjudication by : photo and/or : peer group deposition ? : : : My only question is " What timber is the board to made from?" ? Since standardisation is impossible under these conditions - any common, previously planed but otherwise untreated furniture timber? Possibly the Tulip Tree Wood that we know as American Whitewood? My bet (if I were to be so unwise) would be on a steel jointer with a slightly cambered iron taking the finest possible shaving. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 132675 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-04-27 08:05:50 Subject: RE: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought : -----Original Message----- : From: Richard.Wilson@s... [mailto:Richard.Wilson@s...] : Sent: 26 April 2004 17:49 : To: oldtools : Cc: oldtools@c... : Subject: Re: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - : clarification sought : : I'll offer a cup (species to be determined) Now this is getting serious! : Naturally galoot rules will apply - If you say you've done it, we'll : believe you. Pictures and description are, however, a : necessity, along : with vital statistics of weight of plane, what it was fed on, : training : regime etc. If people respond Scott's challenge and Richard's magnificent offer, sharp, coloured and well-lit pics (reducible to 300 dpi x 45mm wide) on a web site could possibly be referenced (with one pic) on my monthly page devoted to woodworking resources on the Net. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 132676 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-04-27 08:05:49 Subject: RE: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought : -----Original Message----- : From: scott grandstaff [mailto:scottg@s...] : Sent: 26 April 2004 17:35 : To: oldtools : Subject: Re: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - : clarification sought : : But even more important, what it the plane to be made from? : Let's see, : you start with a locomotive engine block and then start adding : lead.............. I suspect that Scott is more than on the right lines (no excuses for the pun). Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 132677 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-04-27 08:05:51 Subject: RE: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought : -----Original Message----- : From: Richard Wilson [mailto:Richard.Wilson@y...] : Sent: 26 April 2004 21:06 : To: oldtools : Subject: Re: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - : clarification sought : : : Seriously then, I'm with Scott - if this is going to be a : global shavings : contest, then perhaps we need to lay out a standard for : anyone attempting : the ultimate tune up. : : Suppose we start with a regular Numbered bench plane, no : heavier than a : No8, Agreed? : ............................ full width blade, Agreed? : ................. and allowing for any cambering, the : shaving has to : be 75% of the blade A very tough requirement? Would qualify for a first prize perhaps? : .............................24" long. Ok? : 'Specials' not : allowed in this class - so a No8 or an equivalent wooden : bench plane. Some : form of guides allowed - don't want nice planes doing : headlong falls, do we. For plane safety purposes only? To keep toes on the ground, the principle objective being to affirm or demolish the original legend? I can't recall seeing it definitively defined, but I've a feeling that it referred to Japanese wooden planes - but that would be too tough a condition. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 132678 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-04-27 08:57:02 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought scott grandstaff wrote: > >> My only question is " What timber is the board to made from?" ? > > Why, either lignum vitae burl, or paper soft, flat sawn row grian > mahogany, you're choice! > But even more important, what it the plane to be made from? Let's see, > you start with a locomotive engine block and then start adding > lead.............. I was thinking of wheels with good bearings as the running surface :-) That oughta' annoy the flat sole brigade! BugBear ---- Start of Message 132679 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-04-27 08:59:45 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought scott grandstaff wrote: > And yeah, I killed at the pinewood derby races so effectively (nobody > else even close), that I was disqualified for breaking rules that > weren't even invented yet! I broke none of the established rules mind > you, and a guy has to figure everything else is wide open to > interpretation. Details, details, we want details - I mean it was made of wood with handtools, right?? BugBear (with a keen interest in woodworking, handtools, and the laws of physics) ---- Start of Message 132680 ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-04-27 07:15:44 Subject: Re: Atkins Diet Al, the stained Wachusett Galoot, said: > I acquired the saw for just the handle, most Atkins I see have the upper > horn missing. I figured I could use a spare handle. Getting a whole usable > saw was a bonus. Not many Atkins saws 'round these parts. > Speaking of which, 'round these parts there has been a disturbance in the force. Atkins saws are nowhere near as common as Disston, but they do show up. A local sawnut, who has a legendary saw problem, seems to have switched his allegiance from that local as well as global saw favorite, Disston, to the underdog. Yep, Dr. D8 has gone on the Atkins diet. He favors the the low carb(on) alternative. He is about 50 lbs lighter than at Christmas. Shows no sign of stopping. It's disturbing as he is a lot faster cruising around the fleamarkets. I wish he'd go back to Disston and high carbs. Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 132681 ---- From: "Jason Knight" Date: 2004-04-27 07:49:05 Subject: old framing square Hello all, As I continue to clean out Pop's basement, I'm finding more and more treasures. Among them is a framing square. If I can find a convenient place, I'll post a few pictures of it. As I was checking it out, I noticed the type face of the measurements looked "old", slight flare on the "1", the "8"s didn't look quite right. Turns out, they aren't 8's at all, but overlapped 0's. There's no indication of a manufacturer, but on the back, you can see what looks like the seam where the two arms were welded together, and the only mark is (in the same hand stamped type face) the date 1742. How do you go about trying to verify a date on something like this? Thanks Jason ---- Start of Message 132682 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-04-27 07:50:49 Subject: Re: Bio and project completion > What would you expect - a workbench! I'm a bit of a photo and web > junkie (used to do photo professionally, do webwork on the side). Absolutely beautiful, Clif. Did you have much trouble fitting the enclosed tail vise? What hardware did you use? -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132683 ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 2004-04-27 08:24:52 Subject: Re: Atkins Diet Steve Reynolds wrote: >A local sawnut, who has a legendary saw problem, seems to have >switched his allegiance from that local as well as global saw favorite, >Disston, to the underdog. Yep, Dr. D8 has gone on the Atkins diet. He >favors the the low carb(on) alternative. He is about 50 lbs lighter than at >Christmas. Shows no sign of stopping. It's disturbing as he is a lot >faster cruising around the fleamarkets. I wish he'd go back to Disston and >high carbs. Speaking of Atkins, I came across the most beautiful Atkins panel saw the other day. Not sure of the model number but it is a 22" skewback with the carved floral (apple) handle. No etch but I rarely see Atkins saws with a good etch. I cleaned it up and sharpened it - what a sweet saw. Also found an Atkins #65 with a great etch. Here in Disston Land the odd Atkins or Simonds saw stands out like an exotic bird amongst the starlings and grackles. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Will Work For Tools The Galoot's Progress Old Tools site is at: http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/galtprog.html ---- Start of Message 132684 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-04-27 08:05:44 Subject: Re: Bio and project completion Clif, You have a beauty there. If you need a place nearby to store it for a few (or more) years, let me know. I would be willing to move my current bench out into the rain to make room for it. :-) Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clif Palmberg" To: "oldtools" Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 9:38 PM... > > Enough about me. The project that gave me pause to post my bio. What would you > expect - a workbench! I'm a bit of a photo and web junkie (used to do photo > professionally, do webwork on the side). So, I made a quick page on my bench. > Check it out at: > http://homepage.mac.com/maclif/shopprojects/workbench/ > Ok - my bench vitals: > 7' 1/2" long > 2' wide > 33 1/2" tall > 3 1/2" thick oak top > Shaker-inspired closed base > enclosed tail vise > shoulder vise > Woods used: oak, walnut, southern yellow pine, cocobolo > With the exception of two pieces of oak, the entire bench was made out of > re-used pallet material or wood from my grandfather's farm (ok, cocobolo was > given to me by a friend). > Tools used: 90% hand tools (disstons, baileys, stanleys, and of course a whole > lot more). > > My gloat - total cost of the probably 500 lb monster - $150 or so. > > Well, if you're reading this far into the long-winded bio, I tip my hat to you. > Now, pass the spatoon. > > -Clif, Dallas Texas > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132685 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-04-27 09:53:13 Subject: Re: LFOD, Nausha NH Rich, Glad you enjoyed the weekend, but only one level and a hat to show for it? Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132686 ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-04-27 07:34:58 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought I would go with Balsa wood. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Gorman" To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 12:05 AM Subject: RE: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought > > > : -----Original Message----- > : From: Richard.Wilson@s... [mailto:Richard.Wilson@s...] > : Sent: 26 April 2004 16:28 > : To: oldtools > : Subject: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - > : clarification sought > : > : > Since I seem to have provoked Scott into this, I can't help chipping in > ............. > > : So let me see, as I understand it, this is a contest to > : produce or tune a > : plane > > Not produce, but tune a standard bench plane? > > : .................... so that it will cut a shaving > > continuous shaving? > > : ............................. when sliding down an > : inclined board > : under its own weight? Open to all comers, Adjudication by > : photo and/or > : peer group deposition ? > : > : > : My only question is " What timber is the board to made from?" ? > > Since standardisation is impossible under these conditions - any common, > previously planed but otherwise untreated furniture timber? Possibly the > Tulip Tree Wood that we know as American Whitewood? > > My bet (if I were to be so unwise) would be on a steel jointer with a > slightly cambered iron taking the finest possible shaving. > > Jeff > -- > Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK > Email: amgron@c... > http://www.amgron.clara.net > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 132687 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-04-27 11:24:26 Subject: crazy 8's Hello, Finally scored that upgrade today. Previously...I had picked up a Bedrock #608 early type (type 3) for a decent sum on eb@y... Too decent, cause the sole turned out to be roadkill. The pitting was deeper than the dead sea. But not to worry, some idiot decided to beltsand the sole into submission. Fast forward...I spotted this Bailey #8 the other day http://tinyurl.com/2bdsf I decided that after spending so much sweat trying to true-up a lousy sole on my #608, that a corrugated sole was the order of the day. I also wanted to find a jointa in good condition that wouldn't require much work on my part, and while I'm a little leery of little used planes, I feel my skills in fettling have advanced to the point where I can make any plane work. This plane had a very high opening bid with claims of being fine, but the pictures weren't great. I kept going back to the pictures that were posted with the auction, and decided to pass on the plane because I was unsure if the condition was as-found, or if the plane had been messed with. I couldn' find any of the usual signs that would indicate that it was anything other that a fine plane and original, and decided that I would probably regret it later if I did't atleast make the opening bid which was good enough for a win. Hoping this turns out..... Later Jonathan - ---- Start of Message 132688 ---- From: "Christopher Otto" Date: 2004-04-27 15:05:49 Subject: Pike grinder question, for anyone with an old catalogue ... and a Galoot Sightin Question -- can someone take the time to post a catalogue excerpt or two showing the difference between the Pike Artisan and the coveted Pike Peerless Senior grinders, including original prices? Thanks, in advance. I picked up a damaged-and-repaired but still perfectly usable Pike Artisan grinder the other day for a nice price at a picked-over estate sale. (Aside -- one of the great things about a galoot education is you find useful stuff even after all of the *B*y pickers have pawed through everything... like this grinder, or a set of spoon bits. Thanks, list people...) The grinder looks much like the recent descriptions of the Peerless Senior, but without the adjustable handle. Just curious what the catalogs say. p.s. -- the galoot sighting: A couple months ago I read a good book, Gene Kranz' "Failure Is Not An Option" about his experiences as a Flight Director at NASA in the 60s and 70s. It's kind of an inspirational book for engineer types, and I'd recommend it wholeheartedly to anyone interested in the history of flight or space exploration. I found a long-time porch dweller discussed, and pictured, in that book. Lucky guy -- he had one of the coolest jobs, ever, the job I dreamed of having when I was a kid... ---- Start of Message 132689 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-04-27 12:11:14 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought > >I would go with Balsa wood. > How bout' Ulmus rubra....slippery elm motion with constant acceleration http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/acons.html Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 132690 ---- From: "Foster, Jim" Date: 2004-04-27 12:08:48 Subject: RE: Bowl turnings and... Richard has much truth here. While going straight from hand cranked grinder to treadle lathe works fine for much lathe work, spending a bit of extra time to hone tools before finish cuts can make a world of difference. I would also suggest that heavy scrapers, with a nice burr left on them (or turned on them if you go that far) can take nice curls off of the inside of bowls. Either round nose or the asymmetrical=20 "Raffan" style are useful. Hmmm, if you sharpened the edge exactly perpendicular you might be able to get them to cut in both directions as the work moves on a pole lathe! B^)=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard.Wilson@s... [mailto:Richard.Wilson@s...] > Jim is on a slope with no bottom. . .=20 >=20 > >I have finished turning 6 bowls now, and the learning curve=20 > is getting=20 > >a little flatter. >=20 > That flattening out is because the slope is moving past the=20 > 'knee' to near=20 > vertical. a couple more bowls and the dark side just hoovers=20 > you into=20 > free fall. >=20 > but hold hard. . > > The finish sanding on the inside of a=20 > >bowl is as much work as all the rest of the job.=20 >=20 >=20 > A galoot needs help here, and the answer is in the=20 > sharpening. If you're=20 > turning the bowl correctly, then only a quick, but thorough, use of=20 > abrasives is necessary. I don't expect to spend more than a=20 > couple of=20 > minutes with abrasives to finish. >=20 >=20 ---- Start of Message 132691 ---- From: "Steven Johnson (MSR)" Date: 2004-04-27 10:59:13 Subject: RE: Bowl turnings and... {warp to rec.woodturning} Sharpening tools for woodturning depends on the type of wood you're turning, the type of tools you're using, and the type of turning you're planning to do, at least. Rules of thumb: 1. Denser wood needs a more finely honed edge for best finish quality (blackwood needs a surgical edge, pine needs rough grit grinding wheel stone edge). 2. A more finely honed edge leads to less finish sanding (assuming perfect technique -- a finely honed edge tearing out grain due to poor technique does not reduce sanding time).=20 3. High speed steel tools cannot be ground as sharply as carbon steel (although they are close, the carbon steel seems to take a better edge. HSS just holds the not-quite-as-good edge longer). I don't know why this is, perhaps the carbon steel has a finer grain structure? 4. Beadwork requires a sharper edge than long straight surfaces (like cylinders). This is because in forming a bead or any surface pattern you'll be cutting through changing wood grain - edge, flat, tangential, etc.). Ornamental turners (who cannot finish sand because the pattern produced by their work is too finely detailed to get any size sandpaper into) work with very dense woods/materials, hone their cutters to microscopic sharpness, and finish with buffing wheels charged with compounds. They also use sliderests to control the cutter presentation to the wood so that manual technique is minimized. {warp back to oldtools topics?} Steve Johnson ---- Start of Message 132692 ---- From: brian_welch@h... Date: 2004-04-27 14:13:26 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought Here's the quote Scott G. was trying to remember from "Japanese Planes" by Ted Chase (FWW #20--Jan/Feb 1980) that started this whole thing: "I have been told of legendary master carpenters who could sharpen their plane blades so keenly and prepare the dai (the plane body) so finely that if they placed the kanna on one end of a board and tilted the board, the plane would cut by itself as it slid down the board. Carpenters' mythology, perhaps, but it sets a standard of excellence that these craftsmen are constantly trying to achieve." Brian Welch Worcester, MA who is glad that Harvard has the complete run of FWW ---- Start of Message 132693 ---- From: "Steve Brackett" Date: 2004-04-27 18:47:03 Subject: Warren planes I just added a little bit of information on the Warrens of NH to my website. I'd love to add pictures of Warren planes along with the text. If anyone has a Warren plane and would be willing to send me a picture to add it would be appreciated. Let me know if you'd like an attribution with your picture. TIA Steve in Keene (where there are tiny lil buds on the trees. spring?? naaa) www.brackettools.com ---- Start of Message 132694 ---- From: "YARROW, GARY" Date: 2004-04-27 15:18:09 Subject: Iowa City anyone? It looks like I will be finding myself in Iowa City this Thursday night. Anyone from Iowa City that would like together for something to eat/drink/whatever? I'll be staying in Coralville, but have means of mobility. Gary +++++++++++++++++++++++ Gary L. Yarrow Two Herbs Workshop 819 Harvey Dunn St. Brookings, SD 57006 www.twoherbs.com ---- Start of Message 132695 ---- From: nutbrown@c... Date: 2004-04-27 21:27:09 Subject: Videos For Sale... Guys, I have 2 original videos of The Woodwrights Shop I would like to sell to a member of the Porch. Both are in excellent condition. Prices include shipping. Email me off list to arrange pmt. First come first serve. 1. Treadle Lathe $20 2. Kids Toys $10 My email: nutbrown@c... ---- Start of Message 132696 ---- From: "Jim Cook" Date: 2004-04-27 17:29:34 Subject: RE: April 2004 LFOD Review > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Brackett [mailto:brackettgeo@y...] > WOW... yup thats the review. OK fine.. you want more detail.. I=20 > can tell. Tons of great tools, bunches of galoots, lots of good=20 > will. Over the two days I had the chance to visit with a number=20 > of my fellow New England Galoots (hi Sandy, Eric, Jim, Josh ,=20 > Brian and Charlie). Hi Steve! > If you see Josh or Brian ask them about the great saws they got=20 > and if you see Jim Cook (WOW.. this guy has incredible taste in=20 > tools) ask him about his new lil Bedrock, the reproduction Norris=20 > Smoother (absolutely gorgeus!), the Swiss made carving chisels.=20 Yeah, I think I really lucked out with a really minty square sided 602,=20 with SW cutter. There was an absentee bid on this thing, I went up one bid and expected to be outbid right away, but no one else bid. Wow, says me! The infill smoother, it turns out, was made by Tim Kelly, according to=20 the guy I bought it from. Tim made a great copy of the MF #1 circular=20 spokeshave, which a lot of galoots bought. I know Tim also made a=20 chariot plane, but wasn't aware he actually made an infill smoother. Did anyone else ever see an example of one of his smoothers? This one=20 has a dovetailed steel sole, an adjustable mouth, and a much more rugged = version of the Norris adjuster than Norris made. It's simply gorgeous,=20 and no, you can't have it! Jim Jim Cook Newton, MA (currently hiding in Atlanta, having not told my wife how = much I=20 spent on only two planes and a small bunch of chisels.) ---- Start of Message 132697 ---- From: "M.Stadulis" Date: 2004-04-27 19:17:33 Subject: Re: Pike grinder question, for anyone with an old catalogue ... and a Galoot Sig This is a job for Tom Thorton......... Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Otto" To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 11:05 AM Subject: [oldtools] Pike grinder question, for anyone with an old catalogue ... and a Galoot Sighting > Question -- can someone take the time to post a catalogue excerpt or two showing the difference between the Pike Artisan and the coveted Pike Peerless Senior grinders, including original prices? Thanks, in advance. > > I picked up a damaged-and-repaired but still perfectly usable Pike Artisan grinder the other day for a nice price at a picked-over estate sale. (Aside -- one of the great things about a galoot education is you find useful stuff even after all of the *B*y pickers have pawed through everything... like this grinder, or a set of spoon bits. Thanks, list people...) The grinder looks much like the recent descriptions of the Peerless Senior, but without the adjustable handle. Just curious what the catalogs say. > > p.s. -- the galoot sighting: A couple months ago I read a good book, Gene Kranz' "Failure Is Not An Option" about his experiences as a Flight Director at NASA in the 60s and 70s. It's kind of an inspirational book for engineer types, and I'd recommend it wholeheartedly to anyone interested in the history of flight or space exploration. I found a long-time porch dweller discussed, and pictured, in that book. Lucky guy -- he had one of the coolest jobs, ever, the job I dreamed of having when I was a kid... > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132698 ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-04-27 20:00:20 Subject: Stanley #432 Saw Set A friend wants to try his hand at saw sharpening. I have a Stanley #432 Handyman saw set. Is this tool any good? Whare can I find instructions for it? Any other suggestions will be appreciated. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ---- Start of Message 132699 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-04-27 20:10:44 Subject: Inclinometer GG I just bought at auction an interesting level/inclinometer. It is a=20 pretty piece of mahogany 26" long , 4" tall, and 1-1/8" thick. It is a=20= solid piece and the two oval hand-hold areas are routed out in a fancy=20= "paneled" look with a molding around the flat inset areas. In the=20 center of the level is a nickel plated mechanism, The mechanism has a 2" diameter circle at the middle with 4 clear vials=20= spaced equally around the open center. On one edge is a little door=20 that you flip open with your fingernail, and inside is a brass pinion=20 gear. It engages the edge of the wheel with 4 vials, and when you push=20= down on the pinion with your thumb, the wheel with the 4 vials spins=20 around. There is a 90=B0-0=B0-90=B0 graduation around 1/2 of the cover = so=20 that as you spin the wheel you can register the incline. On the little door is marked " W.H.HILL" then "CAMBRIDGE SPRINGS, PA."=20= in a circle, with "PAT'D MCH 21-1905" in the center. This thing is god awful to try to adjust. Your thumb aches after about=20= a half dozen pushes, and it difficult to back the thing up if you=20 adjust too far. I can imagine that they did not sell many of these=20 because of this problem. Anybody familiar with this level? Thanks in advance. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 132700 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-04-27 21:15:00 Subject: panel plane kweschin Hi, So I'm guessing that an infill panel plane is good for uh....raising panels (i figured this out all by myself...really). Do these beautious planes excell at other types of work, an infill jack of sorts for knarly grained hardwoods? Don't ask me why I need to know this Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 132701 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-04-27 18:33:42 Subject: Re: panel plane kweschin >an infill panel plane is good for uh....raising panels > Nope, good guess but, sorry. It's for smoothing the panels you've already raised with a, wait for it, panel raiser. See, you need more than one tool! 8^) > an >infill jack of sorts for knarly grained hardwoods? > Now you're talkin! Better than "of sorts". They do this -real- good! yours, Scott Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 132702 ---- From: "P J McBride" Date: 2004-04-28 11:54:11 Subject: RE: panel plane kweschin Jonathan, There are panel planes and there are PANEL planes...panel planes are usually a skew bladed plane with the blade protruding from the side, and sometimes have a cross grain nicker, they are used to raise fielded panels. Later the name PANEL planes, came to be infill planes larger than a smoother and smaller than a jointer. Planes of this type do excel in all sorts of hardwoods. Yes...but why do you want to know....??? Have a look at these three, I got them in a trade recently...the first (with the wedge) is cast, the next is dovetailed, and the third is welded sides to bottom. A friend wanted smaller planes like smoothers (space issue) and I had extra smoothers...couldn't believe him when he asked if I wanted the three for one of my smoothers. I still owe him on that deal. http://www.petermcbride.com/3infillsa.jpg Regards, Peter In Melbourne Australia, where more boxes and/or shelves need to be made soon. ---- Start of Message 132703 ---- From: "Bernard, Eric" Date: 2004-04-27 22:10:17 Subject: A little more on MJD's LFOD Well - I was hoping not to be the last one to post something about MJD's LFOD up in Nashua this past week-end but....but I'm going to add a bit to what Steve, Jim, and, Rich has already mentioned. Friday was in fact a bit of a washout as far as the tailgating goes (Al - don't you pay no attention to Steve...he's just trying to spin you up - I think he's still sore about those carving chisels you picked up in Worchester). The auction itself is another story.... I suspect this was primarily due to the weather. In-house the place was packed. By and large the lots seemed to go for at or near the high end of the anticipated spread. Certainly there were some surprises...... like the Wm. McNeice half back saw Steve mentioned that expected to bring in $100 to $200 and the final hammer was $1700. Or the Chaplins Patent jointer which had an anticipated spread of $75 to $150 - but fetched $1050. In part due to speculation that it may actually be the patent model. Then there was the real big ticket items - like the E.W. Carpenter handled boxwood plow that went to an absentee bidder for $15000. Or the Lee's Patent Chamfer plane which finally hammered out at $10500 to a bidder in the room. Very good fun to watch.... Or that pristine 602.....that some other galoot managed to steal away.... for considerably less than what management would have liked I suspect. Anyhow - all was great - Good to see/meet some of you guys. Jim, Steve, Sandy, Al, Josh, Brian, Ed O., Rich, Slav and all you other galoots - hope to see next time. Later - Eric Bernard Newton, MA ---- Start of Message 132704 ---- From: Clif Palmberg Date: 2004-04-27 19:30:03 Subject: Re: Bio and project completion >Absolutely beautiful, Clif. Did you have much trouble fitting the >the tail vise. What hardware did you use? The tail vise wasn't too bad to fit. Before the apron, before the three rows of 1" wood I glued on for the dogholes, I very carefully made sure the entire length the front edge of the bench was square to the top. After that, using the top as a reference, I used my 55 (actually, my great-grandfather who settled the fam in Kansas' 55) to plough a 1/2" thick and 1/2" deep slot in the edge of the bench. Not changing any settings, I did this to the apron. >From there, built up the dog holes, carefully glued on the apron and attached the endcap (held by dovetails in the apron, tongue and groove in the end of the bench and two bolts with captured nuts). I made the vise jaw taller than needed, and planed it down. Hardware - the vise runs on a pair of cocobolo slides - naturally oily and sturdy. Where the wood contacts has beeswax coatings. The acutal screw is the shoulder vise screw from lee valley. That made the setup about $30. (Technically, the screw was a christmas present - thanks Scott!) If I need to take out the jaw, I remove four screws from the bottom, and removed the slides from the bottom. I've got pictures of the whole process I can post if anyone's interested. They're shot with my palm pilot and not the highest quality, but you can see how it all works. >If you need a place nearby to store it for a >few (or more) years, let me know. I would be willing to move my current >bench out into the rain to make room for it. :-) If you can single-handedly move it out of my garage and into the back of the truck, maybe. On second thought, Galoots are pretty resourceful folks and you'd probably pull up with some sort of sliding dovetail contraption based off of a pole drill to lift it. I'll have to pass on the offer. :) -Clif in Dallas, TX __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132705 ---- From: "M.Stadulis" Date: 2004-04-27 22:44:42 Subject: Re: Stanley #432 Saw Set Bill, try Vintagesaws.com, but they may only have directions for the 42 and subsequent sets. Regards, Michael Stadulis Gloucester County, New Jersey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Rittner" To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 8:00 PM Subject: [oldtools] Stanley #432 Saw Set > A friend wants to try his hand at saw sharpening. I have a Stanley #432 > Handyman saw set. Is this tool any good? Whare can I find instructions for > it? > > Any other suggestions will be appreciated. > > Bill Rittner > R & B ENTERPRISES > Manchester, CT > > wcrittner@c... > > "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody > gets out alive" (Unknown) > > Remove "no" to reply > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132706 ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-04-27 22:49:39 Subject: Milwaukee Rockler's having a used tool swap meet Just stopped by the Milwaukee Rockler store (Mayfair Road just north of Bluemound) and noticed flyers listing a swap meet there on May 8. Spaces are $10. Hand, p*w*r, and lumber are suggested as good things to sell. I'd assume that you could call the store for more details. Ken Meltsner ---- Start of Message 132707 ---- From: "Christopher Otto" Date: 2004-04-28 03:18:24 Subject: re: Milwaukee Rockler's having a used tool swap meet Thanks for the info...I'll race you there. I've been meaning to ask you, or Jim E. #2, or any other lurking Milwaukee galoots if anyone's stopped by the 3rd ward flea market that they've been advertising in the Journal. The ad promises tools. Have there been any? Chris O. ---- Start of Message 132708 ---- From: "Sanford Moss" Date: 2004-04-27 23:28:28 Subject: More LFOD GGs, Thought I'd just chime in on the Nashua reports, maybe from the perspective of a dealer-type guy and seller as well as buyer. Unlike many galoots, I got to Nashua about noon on Thursday (auctions were on Friday & Saturday) and did a fair amount of raiding the tailgates before opening my own. The weather was great and actually produced the first sun burn of the season on my (mostly) naked head. When my wares were spread out the selling did pretty darn well. Actually I sold more than usual on a first day. The general run of the early buyer's mill is other dealers (who drive hard bargains), but there were lots of users looking for good tools on this day. Thursday arrival also gives the opportunity to preview Friday's auction in the evening. I used the opportunity to scratch some likely lots from my bidding list, and add a few more to it. I had many lots marked, but with real low ball prices. Friday, as others noted, opened with a steady rain, and the temperature dropped through the day, with the rain waxing and waning. There wasn't much going on in the parking lot early, but a few forays during breaks from the auction found some open bubbamobiles full of tools. I managed to snag a couple of good saws and a few uncommon braces. The best thing I found was coughed up by one of the oldtools primo unos, Tom Bruce, who sold me this critter: http://www.sydnassloot.com/clampc.htm It's a drill with an obscure chuck patent that, until now, seems to have evaded the drill literati. Another tail gate produced a very nice example of an uncommon Holt ratchet corner brace that will go into my collection. The ongoing auction was noteworthy for the prices realized. Most of the starting bids came from absentee bidders, but the crowded (it was raining, right?) floor finished many of them off. Others have noticed the astounding prices that saws brought, but I was most struck by the general strength of ordinary iron bench planes. The hammer prices of No. 3 to No. 7 Stanley planes were quite strong. You have to think that folks are getting tired of buying unexpected pigs via the internet. Friday evening included an enjoyable dinner with the Southeastern Massachusetts Tool Dealers Association (SMTDA), where the ability to spin tall tales and outright lies is a requisite for membership. This was followed by the LFOD Dealer's Show and saturday auction preview. I managed to pick up a couple of real nice trinkets at the show. Saturday morning started at 5:00 with a misting rain, but that slowed around 6 when tools could be set out on the tables. The sun then poked through and sales (and buying) was strong until the auction start at 9:31 am. As others have noted there were lots of galoots moving around. The dynamic Connecticut Contingent was well represented, and some of the older guys were coming out of their holes. I heard that Charlie Newbold was around, but I missed him. I did meet Charlie's uncle who was looking for him. Charlie--your uncle hasn't heard from you in over a year! By auction time my table had pretty well been wiped clean. The auction, which featured mostly high end tools, also tended to sell at the high end of things. A couple of notable collectors (& book authors) have decided that hand saws are the next coming collectible, and managed to drive the saw prices through the low roof that has hovered over them. Absentee bidders were a bigger force on this day than on Friday, but the floor was still very strong. I bought only 3 lots, but they cost me dearly and are destined for my brace collection. Despite the rain it was a nice time. My truck going home was lighter than it was two days earlier, but my pockets were also much lighter. Such is life. Sandy Tools for Sale list at http://www.sydnassloot.com/tools.htm Brace Collection at http://www.sydnassloot.com/brace.htm _________________________________________________________________ Lose those love handles! MSN Fitness shows you two moves to slim your waist. http://fitness.msn.com/articles/feeds/article.aspx?dept=exercise- &article=et_pv_030104_lovehandles ---- Start of Message 132709 ---- From: "Bernard, Eric" Date: 2004-04-28 06:42:49 Subject: RE: panel plane kweschin Peter in Melbourne Australia took an opportunity to do a drive-by gloat with... > Have a look at these three, I got them in a trade recently...the first (with the > wedge) is cast, the next is dovetailed, and the third is welded sides to bottom. > > http://www.petermcbride.com/3infillsa.jpg Which causes me to ask.... How can one tell if a particular infill is dovetailed or welded. I came across a Spiers panel plane which I was assured was dovetailed - but for the life of me could not find any evidence of this type of construction. I couldn't find even the slightest bit of a seam where the sides and sole join. Which lead me to believe it was either cast or welded or.... I don't recall any mention of any other construction technique being discussed in Lampert's book, "Through Much Tribulation: Stewart Spiers and the Planemakers of Ayr" other than dovetailing. It's been explained that it can be difficult to see the actual joints on these for two reasons: (1) Quality of workmanship - i.e. the joining of metal was done with great care, and (2) Over time, the act of using the plane in some way "polishes" the seem to the point of being indiscernible. I like the first explanation, but as for the second, well it might hold some water when viewing the sole, but unless the plane was used for shooting, I would expect to see some evidence of a metal to metal seam. > A friend wanted smaller planes like smoothers (space issue) and I had extra > smoothers...couldn't believe him when he asked if I wanted the three for one > of my smoothers. I still owe him on that deal. "extra smoothers" you say.....if you have any more "extra" smoothers I can be of assistance. Eric Bernard Newton, MA ....who, bought the Spiers panel plane anyway, still not being completely convinced it was dovetailed..... ---- Start of Message 132710 ---- From: Clif Palmberg Date: 2004-04-28 03:57:48 Subject: Re: Bio and project completion I have received a few requests and questions on and off-list regarding the enclosed tail vise of the bench. I added about 25 construction photos of the bench in progress. The shoulder vise, enclosed tail vise and the journey from pallet to bench are covered. Take a looksie if you're interested at http://homepage.mac.com/maclif/shopprojects/workbench/index.html Clif in Dallas, TX ===== I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set it free. -Michelangelo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132711 ---- From: "Jim Esten" Date: 2004-04-28 06:58:46 Subject: Re: Milwaukee Rockler's having a used tool swap meet Ken, Chris and other SE Wisconsin locals...Jim E continues working like a dog every week in Troy, MI...haven't even seen my shop since late Feb....no end in site so you won't be fightin' me for anything this summer... ..... living vicariously through the image gallery..... Jim E #2 missing Wisconsin.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Otto" To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 11:18 PM Subject: re:[oldtools] Milwaukee Rockler's having a used tool swap meet > Thanks for the info...I'll race you there. > > I've been meaning to ask you, or Jim E. #2, or any other lurking Milwaukee galoots if anyone's stopped by the 3rd ward flea market that they've been advertising in the Journal. The ad promises tools. Have there been any? > > Chris O. > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132712 ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-04-28 07:16:19 Subject: Re: More LFOD Sanford Moss wrote: [...] Hi Sandy Thanks for the report. I've always wondering about this: >Unlike many galoots, I got to Nashua about noon on Thursday (auctions were >on Friday & Saturday) and did a fair amount of raiding the tailgates >before opening my own. If you don't mind my asking, how many of these items ended up, in turn, on your own tailgate? What do you reckon is the record for a given item undergoing multiple-re-tailgating during a single session? N ---- Start of Message 132713 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-04-28 07:14:22 Subject: Re: Bio and project completion > The tail vise wasn't too bad to fit. Before the apron, before the > three rows of 1" wood I glued on for the dogholes, I very Thanks for the explanation, Cliff. If it's not a big deal to post the photos I'd like to see them but otherwise don't bother as your explanation is very clear. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132714 ---- From: Dan Miller Date: 2004-04-28 07:25:03 Subject: A Nifty Router Plane Mornin' All, Here is a photo of a nifty little router plane I liberated from my favorite rust dealer: http://www.dragonflycanoe.com/misc_images/routerplane.jpg The "frog" has two raised "bars" that form a channel to keep the cutter for twisting. I presume it may have had (certainly it can have) interchangeable cutters of different width. Any thoughts on maker, origin, etc. would be appreciated. I've not seen anything like this before live or in books... Cheers, Dan ______________________ Daniel Miller Dragonfly Canoe Works North Greenbush, NY http://dragonflycanoe.com ---- Start of Message 132715 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-04-28 12:32:54 Subject: Re: Bio and project completion Clif Palmberg wrote: > I have received a few requests and questions on and off-list regarding > the enclosed tail vise of the bench. I added about 25 construction > photos of the bench in progress. The shoulder vise, enclosed tail vise > and the journey from pallet to bench are covered. Take a looksie if > you're interested at > http://homepage.mac.com/maclif/shopprojects/workbench/index.html Wow! *very* interesting approach to fitting the slab to the end frame. http://homepage.mac.com/maclif/shopprojects/workbench/Images/02const.de- tails/06rabbetjigres.jpg This gets a good fit, whilst removing a minimal of material from the slab. This maximises stiffness and mass in the top, whilst still getting the required fit. It also minimises labour, compared to fully surfacing the entire underside. It's also a perfect "parallel invention" of what used to be done with floor boards before power saws and thickness planers. (summarising from memory, "The Village Carpenter" by Walter Rose). A sash rebate plane was run done the edge of each board, with its fence referencing the finished (upper) surface. This created a very good reference for the desired underside. This underside was only thicknessed across it's full width where it contacted joists. Each joist "station" was sawn down to the reference plane, and then the waste chopped out with chisels, and finished with a carpenters plain skew rebate. BugBear ---- Start of Message 132716 ---- From: "Joe West" Date: 2004-04-28 07:36:09 Subject: Re: Bio and project completion All Why is the tail vise end of a traditional cabinetmakers workbench, like Clifs, unsupported? That end of the bench hangs way over from the legs. Joe West >From: Clif Palmberg Reply-To: Clif Palmberg > To: "oldtools" Subject: >Re:[oldtools] Bio and project completion Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 >19:30:03 -0700 (PDT) > > >Absolutely beautiful, Clif. Did you have much trouble fitting the the > >tail vise. What hardware did you use? > >The tail vise wasn't too bad to fit. Before the apron, before the three >rows of 1" wood I glued on for the dogholes, I very carefully made sure >the entire length the front edge of the bench was square to the top. >After that, using the top as a reference, I used my 55 (actually, my >great-grandfather who settled the fam in Kansas' 55) to plough a 1/2" >thick and 1/2" deep slot in the edge of the bench. Not changing any >settings, I did this to the apron. From there, built up the dog holes, >carefully glued on the apron and attached the endcap (held by dovetails >in the apron, tongue and groove in the end of the bench and two bolts >with captured nuts). I made the vise jaw taller than needed, and planed >it down. Hardware - the vise runs on a pair of cocobolo slides - >naturally oily and sturdy. Where the wood contacts has beeswax >coatings. The acutal screw is the shoulder vise screw from lee valley. >That made the setup about $30. (Technically, the screw was a christmas >present - thanks Scott!) If I need to take out the jaw, I remove four >screws from the bottom, and removed the slides from the bottom. > >I've got pictures of the whole process I can post if anyone's >interested. They're shot with my palm pilot and not the highest >quality, but you can see how it all works. > > > >If you need a place nearby to store it for a few (or more) years, let > >me know. I would be willing to move my current bench out into the > >rain to make room for it. :-) > >If you can single-handedly move it out of my garage and into the back >of the truck, maybe. On second thought, Galoots are pretty resourceful >folks and you'd probably pull up with some sort of sliding dovetail >contraption based off of a pole drill to lift it. I'll have to pass on >the offer. :) > >-Clif in Dallas, TX > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs >http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools _________________________________________________________________ Lose those love handles! MSN Fitness shows you two moves to slim your waist. http://fitness.msn.com/articles/feeds/article.aspx?dept=exercise- &article=et_pv_030104_lovehandles ---- Start of Message 132717 ---- From: "Sanford Moss" Date: 2004-04-28 08:27:25 Subject: Re: More LFOD Hi Nichael, You ask > >I've always wondering about this: snip >If you don't mind my asking, how many of these items ended up, in turn, on >your own >tailgate? Not many. In the parking lot I'm generally buying braces for my erstwhile collection, or nice things to put on my forsale list--not to resell right away. >What do you reckon is the record for a given item undergoing >multiple-re-tailgating >during a single session? Gosh, I don't know what the record is, but it sure happens. Tools at tailgate sessions seem to flow upstream in the dealer hierarchy--from the little guys to the big guys, and finally to the user. I doubt very much that you could buy something from, say Phil Whitby, and have enough left in it to resell right away. But Phil could certainly buy something from me, and put it out on his table. If a really choice item showed up cheap, it might be able to move across two or three tables I guess. This usually happens without any rancor or hard feelings. Hey, if I'm happy with the price I got for a tool, I don't begrudge the next guy just because he's more knowlegable or a better salesman than me. One early experience I had was with a dealer set up next to me in Nashua a few years ago. I had an ordinary machinist's speed indicator in the pile of $5 items on a tarp spread out on the ground. This other dealer looked the pile over, picked up the speed indicator, asked if I'd go $4 on it-- sure, it's a sale. Then, hardly missing a beat, this dealer (who'll go un-named here) turned around and immediately sold it to another guy for $75. The crusher was that he then came back to me and asked for some help making the right change! That was humbling! Sandy (where it still raining in coastal Mass.) _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ---- Start of Message 132718 ---- From: Rex Wilson Date: 2004-04-28 07:40:22 Subject: RE: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought > >: >: Suppose we start with a regular Numbered bench plane, no heavier >: than a No8, > >Agreed? > >: ............................ full width blade, > >Agreed? > >: ................. and allowing for any cambering, the shaving has to >: be 75% of the blade > >A very tough requirement? Would qualify for a first prize perhaps? > >: .............................24" long. > >Ok? > >: 'Specials' not allowed in this class - so a No8 or an equivalent >: wooden bench plane. Some form of guides allowed - don't want nice >: planes doing headlong falls, do we. >To keep toes on the ground, the principle objective being to affirm or >demolish the original legend? I can't recall seeing it definitively >defined, but I've a feeling that it referred to Japanese wooden planes >- but that would be too tough a condition. > >Jeff >-- OK you guys; So can it (the joiner) be a LN or Big Bedrock? Can the chip breaker (cap iron be one of the new LN heavier models. The bedding angle and cutting angles are not standardized right? Rosewood inlet into the sole of the older planes might change the friction coefficient - who made those things? And just what is American White wood? Are the contestants allowed to "wax" the soles of their battleships? - cousin Rex Rex Woodwerks Madison WI, USA ---- Start of Message 132719 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-04-28 08:50:56 Subject: RE: panel plane kweschin > > >Yes...but why do you want to know....??? tada!!! finally found one that's not messed with. The Ward marked iron has the same assembly number as the bed and is of good length. I belive this plane to be cast in malleable iron. The cap iron is marked Pearson, and the mouth tight and not filed. The wooden parts are all good and tight with only one minor crack behind the tote. There is some spotting and minor pitting, but overall it's in very good well cared condition showing only moderate use with the only flaw being a very nicely done replacement of the tip of the tote. In short...a keeper http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=531 > >Have a look at these three, I got them in a trade recently... > simply beautiful...gotsta to be good karma Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 132720 ---- From: JTWad@a... Date: 2004-04-28 09:02:50 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought John Lederer made my blood run cold with his stain-removal memories: << Starting the washer with clothes in it, bypassing the safety switch with a piece of tape, rubbing our hands with a cut lemon, and then putting them in the washer to rub against the clothes as they were agitated worked fairly well. >> I sat on a jury once considering a case in which a young man had lost an arm by reaching into a washing machine with a defective lid switch just as it went into spin cycle... Don't do it, fellas! John Wadsworth, looking at a half inch of new snow in Delhi, NY ---- Start of Message 132721 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-04-28 08:20:40 Subject: Re: A Nifty Router Plane Dan, That's neat! Definitely an unusual piece. Looks like someone might have made a major modification to an old style Stanley #101 plane. Is it about 3 1/2 inches long? That's the length of the #101. Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Miller" To: "oldtools" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 6:25 AM Subject: [oldtools] A Nifty Router Plane > Mornin' All, > > Here is a photo of a nifty little router plane I liberated from my favorite > rust dealer: > > http://www.dragonflycanoe.com/misc_images/routerplane.jpg > > The "frog" has two raised "bars" that form a channel to keep the cutter for > twisting. I presume it may have had (certainly it can have) interchangeable > cutters of different width. Any thoughts on maker, origin, etc. would be > appreciated. I've not seen anything like this before live or in books... ---- Start of Message 132722 ---- From: Clif Palmberg Date: 2004-04-28 06:35:33 Subject: Re: Bio and project completion --- bugbear wrote: > Wow! *very* interesting approach to fitting the slab to the end frame. > > http://homepage.mac.com/maclif/shopprojects/workbench/Images/02const.de- tails/06rabbetjigres.jpg > > This gets a good fit, whilst removing a minimal of material from > the slab. > > This maximises stiffness and mass in the top, whilst still getting the > required fit. It also minimises labour, compared to fully surfacing > the entire underside. I briefly entertained the idea of surfacing the entire bottom. Very briefly. Beside the occasional bit of nail still hiding in the bottom (I forget how many times I had to regrind my #5 blade from those), I thought this would give a better positive contact to the base. ===== I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set it free. -Michelangelo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132723 ---- From: "Arthur Bailey" Date: 2004-04-28 10:13:46 Subject: RE: Bio and project completion Hey Clif- Beautiful bench! I was about to comment on the fact that the top was made up of endgrain joined pieces and that I thought that joining endgrain resulted in a less than strong bond, but then I realized that since the pieces are laid out brick-fashion, there's enough side to side glue surface between boards to counter this, in addition to the dowels. I assume everyone else knew this since no one said anything, but it's new to me. Nice solution in a world where cheep or free hunks of wood are getting smaller and smaller. Maybe I'll bring a case of beer over to the guys at the pallet making plant up the street and see if I can make some friends.... Art Bailey Queens, NY ---- Start of Message 132724 ---- From: Rex Date: 2004-04-28 10:05:36 Subject: Re: Bevel (Bezel) Article Well now that you mention it I am having trouble also. I even have pictures planted on the site and can not get the address to load on Netscape. I do not use exploiter because ... well they exploit. -Rex Bill Kasper wrote: > hayup. often takes forever to open, and sometimes "wdynamic.com" > server not found. > > osx panther and safari. no difference using microshaft's exploder... > > bill > felton, ca > > > On Apr 23, 2004, at 6:07 PM, Matthew and Cathy Groves wrote: > >> Sorry to post on list, but please allow me to explain. >> >> Am I the only galoot who consistently has trouble accessing pages from >> wdynamic (like in the tiny url below) ? If I am, so be it, no action >> required, but somehow I'm guessing there's more people than myself, >> perhaps >> a lot more. >> >> Maybe we can discover some common denominator to those of us who can't >> access those pages. >> >> I don't have any filtering software or anything that I can see would >> cause >> my problems. >> >> Anyone else? > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132725 ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-04-28 11:14:24 Subject: RE: A Nifty Router Plane To my inexperienced eyes, it looks like an infill router plane -- one more opportunity for dovetailed metal crowd? Is there any advantage to this design over one of the "flat plate with knobs and a hole in the middle" variety? Ken "In 'beautiful' Slough next week" Meltsner ---- Start of Message 132726 ---- From: Dan Miller Date: 2004-04-28 11:30:49 Subject: Re: A Nifty Router Plane At 09:20 AM 4/28/2004, Frank wrote: >Dan, > >That's neat! Definitely an unusual piece. Looks like someone might >have made a major modification to an old style Stanley #101 plane. Is >it about 3 1/2 inches long? That's the length of the #101. No, it is much bigger than a 101 (miniature plane, Jeff). It measures 4-7/8" x 1 13/16" It appears to be purpose-made to me, rather than a reworking of something else... Cheers, Dan ______________________ Daniel Miller Dragonfly Canoe Works North Greenbush, NY http://dragonflycanoe.com ---- Start of Message 132727 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-04-28 08:43:37 Subject: Re: More LFOD Great tale about the indicator Sandy! Loved it Here's another One time Kitty and me were on the way to a show. We had our boxes of stuff all clean and marked with high hopes, ready to fill our table. Only, while on the way we happened to stop off at an antique shop. Usually Dolly, the owner, had pretty good taste but was real fond of her own merchandise to judge by her prices, so it was as much of a rest stop as anything. But on this particular day she had something so spectacular we near died on the spot. The price wasn't bad either, but we didn't have the money. No part of it, in fact. We walked out of the shop heartbroke, but began the cheer up as we headed toward the show. By the time we got there a hasty plan had emerged between us. As we were setting our stuff out we just loudly announced it was going to be 1/2 off anything marked! The other dealers began to cluster around and finding our original prices already decent, the 1/2 off on top of it started a feeding frenzy like a school of starving sharks. They took armloads, they filled boxes, I saw stretched out t-shirts stuffed with loot. After a minute they quit looking at the price at all and just grabbed whatever they could Each item coming up out of the boxes had three or four eager hands reaching for it. Pretty soon they were diving into the boxes for themselves and cackling with glee over the whole thing. They wiped us clean out in 10 minutes flat, except for a couple three items we just set out on the table and announced "free" on. They vanished in a heartbeat too. As we were cleaning up to hot foot it back to the shop, an old friend came up and tried to console us saying something like "don't go away mad, this could happen to anyone" but we were grinning from ear to ear heading out the door at a trot anyway. They were all looking at us like we were a couple of escaped lunatics. That treasure is still on the shelf and I've never grown tired of it. I expect it'll be on an auction cover someday after I'm gone. Oh, and of course we did go back to the show and pick up a few other things too. I still get a little extra attention whenever we set up, even to this day. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 132728 ---- From: T&J Holloway Date: 2004-04-28 08:47:27 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought [snip of accumulated snippets back and forth on this topic] A detail I haven't seen reference to in this banter, that I thought might be worth entering into the record, in the interest of avoiding damage to the toe of the test plane, if it is of metal: Please have an adequate shock absorbing and containment system at the bottom end of the slope! My suggestion is to make a sort of box by taping slabs of styrofoam together (the stuff your computer was packed in), with a triple layer at the point where the toe of the plane will hit as it falls. But let's pull back a minute, folks: For some nagging reason, this project reminds me of modern professional Rodeo (highly orchestrated USA/Canada athletic performance involving men in big hats, horses, and various types of cattle, Jeff). The announcer always reminds the ticket buying audience that the events originated on real cattle ranches, during real work. Yet what you see is done as pure competitive performance for its own sake, and it is far removed from its putative origins in real ranch work. I hope the analogy is clear, but just in case: I once thought planes were meant to assist woodworkers in changing rough pieces of timber into the elements of constructed trim or furniture. Will the time now come when planes are made, fettled, and "used" to produce shavings for shavings' sake, or impress audiences with their ability to do things that would never happen in a real woodworking shop? Tom Holloway, in Vacaville, CA, where it hit a record-for-the-day of 96 degrees f. yesterday. ---- Start of Message 132729 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-04-28 09:21:29 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought That time is already here for some folks. I keep saying that I don't understand getting and holding onto tools that don't get used for their intended purpose. I do use my tools. But then I spent my life using tools. I have been gently corrected by people I respect. They have tools they don't use and will never use. And we wouldn't have this list without them. I don't think there is a right or wrong position on this. It is just different strokes for different folks. On Wednesday, April 28, 2004, at 08:47 AM, T&J Holloway wrote: > I once thought planes were meant to assist woodworkers in changing > rough pieces of timber into the elements of constructed trim or > furniture. Will the time now come when planes are made, fettled, and > "used" to produce shavings for shavings' sake, or impress audiences > with their ability to do things that would never happen in a real > woodworking shop? Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 132730 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-04-28 12:20:53 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought > Will the time now come when planes are made, fettled, and "used" > to produce shavings for shavings' sake, or impress audiences with Isn't this what collectors do with them (GD&R)! I confess to making shavings for shavings sake on occasion. What I'm getting a kick out of is the detail of these discussions about rules for a competition that will never occur. :-) -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132731 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-04-28 17:34:37 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought T&J Holloway wrote: > Will the > time now come when planes are made, fettled, and "used" to produce > shavings for shavings' sake, or impress audiences with their ability to > do things that would never happen in a real woodworking shop? I was under the (strong) impression that this had already happened... ;-) BugBear ---- Start of Message 132732 ---- From: "Jason Knight" Date: 2004-04-28 12:37:50 Subject: framing square Well, until I'm told otherwise, I'll put these on my school web site :) http://www.st-dominic.net/Teacher%20Webs/.Jason%20.Knight%20Web/Web/weld.jpg http://www.st-dominic.net/Teacher%20Webs/.Jason%20.Knight%20Web/Web/date.jpg http://www.st-dominic.net/Teacher%20Webs/.Jason%20.Knight%20Web/Web/Square.jpg Regardless of whether or not that 1742 stamp truly indicates the age of this, it ain't new. Pop says it was from his grandfather. I'm amazed it survived a generation in the wading pool we called a basement. Knowing precious little of woodworking and less about metal working, I'd still appreciate any insight anyone has from looking at the pics. Thanks, Jason who slinks back to his pile of 2 by4's becoming a bench, daydreaming wistfully of the day he can try to build a bench like Clif Palmberg's recent post :) ---- Start of Message 132733 ---- From: Joshua Clark Date: 2004-04-28 12:49:38 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought In all seriousness, the Japanese have a history of hand plane competitions or contests in which the goal is to produce the thinnest shaving from a timber. Granted, they're using more than gravity to propel the planes, but the rules could probably be adapted to the Gorman-Grandstaff competition. Last year a similar contest was held in Connecticut- here's a link to the contest rules: http://www.woodworkersclubnorwalk.com/rulesB.html And some pictures and results of the competition: http://www.woodworkersclubnorwalk.com/club/club.html In my defense, I arrived three hours late and only had ten minutes to get a shaving submitted for the first round.. My results in the finals were much better- 2nd place with .0008 inches, though Aime beat me by .00005. Hey, she was sponsored by DMT, so I think she should have ben excluded from the amateur competition :) Here's some hints for all you potential Gorman-Grandstaffers: Shorter is better- you're not trying to joint the timber straight, just produce a thin shaving. Go for a short, wide, heavy plane like a 4.5 or an A5. There's nothing in the rules against having an assistant- have them catch the shaving in the plane's throat so it doesn't get clogged. Here's a good way to involve SWMBO in your galooting! see pictures above for an example. -Josh in CT- 70 and sunny.. so don't want to work. On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Larry Marshall wrote: > What I'm getting a kick out of is the detail of these discussions > about rules for a competition that will never occur. :-) > ---- Start of Message 132734 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-04-28 13:05:54 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought >Will the time now come when planes are made, fettled, and "used" to >produce shavings for shavings' sake, or impress audiences with >their ability to do things that would never happen in a real >woodworking shop? > I have to admit to being intrigued by the meticulouss techniques of David Charlesworth, but sharp on a stick is good enough for me, although I will not give up the persuit of the perfectly fitted dovetail, or the run on sentence for that matter. http://www3.woodcraft.com/Books/woodworking/4191.htm Later Jonathan ---- Start of Message 132735 ---- From: Joshua Clark Date: 2004-04-28 13:04:37 Subject: Early Langdon Mitre Box Company History GG's, After spending two days in Nashua, NH in tool paradise, returning to work is hard to accept. For some reason I still expect to see folks walk by wielding hand saws and hammers. I don't have much to add on top of what others have already said- the event was great as usual, even if it rained Friday morning. I saw more galoots this time around than at any previous LFOD. I can remember at least fourteen but there were probably more wearing their stealth Galoot hats. As Rich mentioned the auctions were strong, with almost every item starting with at least one absentee bid. The quality of the items in the auction was also much higher in my estimation. I think a new record was set for a handsaw in Saturday's auction- the Disston 12 with the gauge brought $4400 plus premium. My haul was considerably lighter this year but I found some really interesting stuff. I'm just starting to sort though some of it which brings me to the point of this message. I found a very interesting Harvey Peace back saw in Saturday's auction. It's in very good condition overall- the interesting thing it has two distinct etches- the first is the Standard Peace logo "Harvey W. Peace, Vulcan Saw Works, yadda yadda" etched over that (or perhaps under) but not obscuring the first etch is "Langdon Miter Box Co. Northampton, MA." I've seen plenty of Disston saws etched and stamped "Langdon" but never a Peace saw. In researching the history of the Langdon company, I found a tidbit on Randy's Millers Falls site that states that in 1876 the Langdon company moved from Northampton, MA to the village of Millers Falls. In the 1878 MF catalog reprint it's stated that the Langdon Mitre boxes are shipped with Disston & Sons saws. My suspicion is that Peace saws were sold with Langdon mitre boxes up until the company was moved to Millers Falls in 1876. Does anyone have any pre-1878 information (catalogs, ads, etc) on the Langdon Mitre Box Company that would shed more light on this? Randy posted a similar request to the list a few years back, but there were no followups. I'm hoping that since then some new information may have been uncovered. Thanks in advance, -Josh in CT- ---- Start of Message 132736 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-04-28 17:53:47 Subject: Gorman-Grandstaff award - fettling foughts Tom chided. . . > furniture. Will the time now come when planes are made, fettled, and > "used" to produce shavings for shavings' sake, or impress audiences > with their ability to do things that would never happen in a real > woodworking shop=3F The idea is to prove or not the notion that a plane can be made sharp enough to cut a shaving under its own weight. I tried already to rule out Scotts notion of sharpening the leading edge of an engine block and calling it an entrant. I have to say that I agree with Tom, but if I can make one of my normal, ordinary bench planes cut under these conditions then I'm confident that it will cope with reverse grain and all that *may8 come at it in the normal course of events. And if to do that needs me to up my level of fettling to a higher standard, then that must be to the good. We have been talking a No 8 because we think that the weight is necessary. But whatever I needed to do to a No 8 for the shaving test could be applied to my No4 user smoother or my Norris or Clark & Williams smoothers and they would give the samne result. We've long had the 'hang time' standard on OldTools - a theoretical time that a shaving takes to descend to the floor - the implication being that it is so gossamer like that it floats softly. I see this as merely being a different version of the same, with perhaps a slightly more objective test implied. - And it should definitely become the GG TEST rather than implying any competition involved. - I'll still provide a cup for the galoot with the thickest 'self powered' continuous shaving though.. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman galoot --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 132737 ---- From: "Lamar keeney" Date: 2004-04-28 13:14:19 Subject: RE: framing square I couldn't speculate on the age, but noicing the stamping of the numbers, it looks to be hand made. The "O" and "1"S look all to have come from the same stamp even of the eight. Have you checked it against the inch standard now in use? Regardless it's a great find. Thanks for the look, Lamar >From: "Jason Knight" >Reply-To: "Jason Knight" >To: "oldtools" >Subject: [oldtools] framing square >Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:37:50 -0400 > >Well, until I'm told otherwise, I'll put these on my school web site :) >http://www.st-dominic.net/Teacher%20Webs/.Jason%20.Knight%20Web/Web/weld.jpg >http://www.st-dominic.net/Teacher%20Webs/.Jason%20.Knight%20Web/Web/date.jpg >http://www.st-dominic.net/Teacher%20Webs/.Jason%20.Knight%20Web/Web/Square.jpg > >Regardless of whether or not that 1742 stamp truly indicates the age of >this, it ain't new. Pop says it was from his grandfather. I'm amazed it >survived a generation in the wading pool we called a basement. Knowing >precious little of woodworking and less about metal working, I'd still >appreciate any insight anyone has from looking at the pics. > >Thanks, >Jason >who slinks back to his pile of 2 by4's becoming a bench, daydreaming >wistfully of the day he can try to build a bench like Clif Palmberg's >recent post :) > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools _________________________________________________________________ Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar – FREE! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ ---- Start of Message 132738 ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-04-28 12:14:57 Subject: Re: framing square Jason Asked about his framing square: > > Regardless of whether or not that 1742 stamp truly indicates the age of > this, it ain't new. Pop says it was from his grandfather. I'm amazed it > survived a generation in the wading pool we called a basement. Knowing > precious little of woodworking and less about metal working, I'd still > appreciate any insight anyone has from looking at the pics. It seems clear to me that this is a Blacksmith made square, with hand struck markings and numbers. I would trust your Dad's knowledge that it went back to your Grandfather, which I would assume would be perhaps 1925 or so. I seriously doubt that anybody was making "forgeries" of old tools then, because there were few if any tool collectors. (Do I recall that EAIA started about 1935 and MWTCA about 1964?) So, I certainly would trust the 1742 date. There seems to be no reason to fake it. I wonder if your Grandfather lived I the same location for much of his life, and if you could find any records of Blacksmiths that worked in the area. If you were exceptionally lucky, a local Historical Society would have a known example of the Smith's work and you could match the numerals (like that wild # 8) with his known work. I know that sounds far fetched, but stranger things have happened. (I once found a tool chest with (among other things) 14 out of a set of 18 hollow and rounds all with the same "R. Sherlock" owner's mark. Two years later, about 25 mi. away I found two of the missing H& R's also marked by brother R. Sherlock.......But I have told that whole long story on OT before, so I shan't repeat it.) Are there any other family members who might know where your Grandfather got the square? Congratulations on finding a neat tool with some great Family history! Good luck in learning more about it. Chris, Still grading papers in West Lafayette, IN ---- Start of Message 132739 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-04-28 10:16:28 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought T&J Holloway wrote: SNIP Please have an adequate shock absorbing and containment system at the bottom end of the slope! SNIP I once thought planes were meant to assist woodworkers in changing rough pieces of timber into the elements of constructed trim or furniture. Will the time now come when planes are made, fettled, and "used" to produce shavings for shavings' sake, or impress audiences with their ability to do things that would never happen in a real woodworking shop? Tom Holloway, Hi Tom: It'll be similar to drag racing, in which "cars" that couldn't carry a little old lady to church are built at tremendous expense and operated at high risk---see any episode of "Max X". Our planes will be faster, of course, and run hotter but won't be quite so loud. Our hands will be blacker than any grease monkey's, that's for sure. Your other point is well taken; I believe I'll adopt the drag-chute in concert with the time-tested piles of haybales at the end of the road. As in the other industry, expect competition to produce immediate improvements in materials and techniques, also greater environmental impact. best to you; GAM, in full-blown Seattle ===== ____________________________________________________________ Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. D. D. Eisenhower ____________________________________________________________ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132740 ---- From: Clif Palmberg Date: 2004-04-28 10:17:20 Subject: Re: Bio and project completion I can't speak for history, but the reason I did so was availible materials. The crossmembers of the base were only 52" long, so the base was going to be narrower than the top. I spent many hours sitting on my sawhorse staring at the top sitting on the base deciding what relationship the top and base should have. I decided on this to keep the arm part of the shoulder vise fairly small and give myself room to store my sawhorse under the end-vise side of the bench. On the other hand, I haven't had any problems with it. I can sit on the tail vise (I've never been mistaken for an Olympic runner) side of the bench and it doesn't tip. I also can pound on that end with no ill effects. Maybe that does speak to history. I like the space on that side to pull up a sawhorse and draw out plans or chisel. Maybe historically the space was to allow someone to work in a sitting position and still have the bench in front of them. Maybe there was some resource or building method that limited the sizes of bases, too. Of course, all of that is based off of personal experience and no direct reference to anything concrete from a historical perspective. -Clif in Dallas, TX (pumped Jason is daydreaming of my bench) --- Joe West wrote: > All > > Why is the tail vise end of a traditional cabinetmakers workbench, like > Clifs, unsupported? That end of the bench hangs way over from the legs. > > Joe West ===== I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set it free. -Michelangelo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132741 ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-04-28 10:30:24 Subject: Re: Gorman-Grandstaff award - fettling foughts This discussion of gravity power planes makes me wish I had taken a picture of one of the displays at the M-WTCA tool meeting at Hastings, MN, last Saturday, as one of the displays included a huge jointer saw, details of which I don't recall at the moment. Maybe Wayne is out there and might recall more about it? It was almost as big as some cooper's planes I have seen, but was a jointer, factory made I think. ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132742 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-04-28 13:35:13 Subject: Re: framing square Hi Jason & All, I tried doing a bit of researching re Jason's framing square with the 1742 (date?) marking. Found nothing too definitive, but did find that iron framing squares are known from at least 1650. But steel squares probably didn't come along until ca. 1820. Not sure if/how Jason can confirm whether his is iron or steel, but it being iron would seem to increase the validity of the 1742 being a date. It does look "old" but I'm not too sure it really looks "that old". Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132743 ---- From: "Jason Knight" Date: 2004-04-28 13:51:41 Subject: Re: framing square Chris Berger writes: >I wonder if your Grandfather lived I the same location for much of >his life, and if you could find any records of Blacksmiths that worked in >the area. If you were exceptionally lucky, a local Historical Society That's a great idea. When I get the chance, I'll definitely look that up. I'm new to this type of research, as well, so ideas like this that you folks are coming up with are also much appreciated. Maybe it's having a kid of my own now (who may one day be using his great-great-grampa's framing square!), but I've become much more interested in family history. >From some of the stories I've heard, the Knight's have a bit of a shady history and no one has had the stomach to trace the family much beyond the 1900's. We're much more honorable nowadays. Really :) As for Bob's observation that it looks old, but maybe not 1742 old, I'm in the same camp until I can find out more about it. Being my great grandfather's would put it at late 1800's, maybe early 1900's, depending on when in his life he came upon it. If I'm able to find anything else on it, I'll post again. Thanks Jason ---- Start of Message 132744 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-04-28 11:05:54 Subject: Big gouge handles. Thought you all might like to see the two handles I just made for the two BIG gouges Scott Grandstaff recently sent me. I also did a little metal work on them. One is an incannel D.R Barton, and the other appears to be blacksmith made outcannel, although I do notice a mark, "Weldon" on the back side. Of course they had no handles when I got them, but they do now. I used some wood taken from a plum tree. It is very similar to apple in the way it looks, works, and finishes. The finish on the handles is buffed wax. http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/PhotoAlbum55.html Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 132745 ---- From: Thomas Conroy Date: 2004-04-28 12:47:46 Subject: Re: framing square Jason et.al.: I have what may be something objective to contribute on the nmbers on your framing square. Trouble is, its also pretty tentative: the numbers don't look like "old style" numerals. Up until 1700 or so all numbers in handwriting and printing were placed between four horizontal lines, like small letters. After 1900 or so just about all numbers were placed between two horizontal lines, like capitals. Just when the change tool place varied, but my impression is that "old style" numbers were universal until about 1750 and rare after about 1820. In "old style" numbers, some are drawn between the two center lines (0, 1, 2, like a, c, e). Others have risers (5, 6, 8, like b, d, f); still others have descenders (3, 4, 7, 9, like g, j, p). Numbers with risers are the same height as numbers with descenders, but differ in vertical placement; letters with neither are about half-height. In "new style" numbers all the numbers are the same height and all are placed between the same two horizontal lines. To my eye, all the numbers on Jason's square look about the same height, and where there are several together they look roughly level, none rising or descending. The don't look quite "old style" to me. Trouble is, they don't look quite "new style" either: the heights aren't exactly the same, and the horizontal alignment isn't all that exact. Mostly they look shop-made, as might be by a blacksmith (early or late) who wasn't all that much on fancy schoolmasters' ideas like horizontal alignment but who knew what a number looked like, and knew he could build it up out of simpler elements. (Are the 7s made from one stroke of a 7 or two strokes of a wedge? What about the 1s, turning the wedge upside down for the second strike? The 8s have been mentioned). Based on a pretty quick look at the photos, the number shapes look reasonably consistant with 18th century, but the heights and alignment don't. Tentatively I would say I'm on the "old but not that old" camp and don't think "1742" is a date; but I wouldn't be surprised to find I was wrong. Its a real treasure no matter what the actual date. Tom Conroy Berkeley __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132746 ---- From: brian_welch@h... Date: 2004-04-28 16:06:22 Subject: Re: More LFOD I was only able to go to Nashua on Saturday, but it sounds like I didn't miss too much, especially since I almost exclusively end up getting tools in the parking lot and not at the auction. And since Saturday is the high end stuff, this LFOD was no exception (not that I wasn't tempted!). I ended up buying two Simonds saws and a Charles Buck crank neck flat sweep gouge (Simonds and Charles Buck are my big weaknesses--oh, and OLD Witherby stuff). Research for my website. The find of the day (which Chris Winter found for me--I call him my Simonds enabler, as he finds saws for me and then makes me buy them) was a super minty top of the line Simonds #61: http://www.geocities.com/sawnutz/simonds/blue_ribbon.htm As you can see in the picture, not only did Simonds call their best saws "Blue Ribbon", but the etch is actually BLUE. I have never seen this before. Now I really don't consider myself a collector, and I would like to think that I could and will use almost all of the tools I own, but I am glad that this saw has never been used, because otherwise I never would have known that Simonds made Blue Ribbon saws with a blue etch. I finally got to meet Steve Brackett, and bought this nice Simonds #15 hand hacksaw with adjustable handle from him: http://www.geocities.com/sawnutz/simonds/saws/my_15.jpg http://www.geocities.com/sawnutz/simonds/saws/my_15_handle.jpg I still haven't figured out if these are intended purely as a hacksaw, or maybe for remodeling (like a sawzall) where you can cut through wood and not have to worry if you hit a nail. They are harder than most handsaws and are not set. Brian Welch Worcester, MA looking forward to the next old tool event ---- Start of Message 132747 ---- From: "Kaye, Danny" Date: 2004-04-28 21:17:15 Subject: RE: More LFOD YnV0IFdIQVQgV0FTIElUPz8/Pz8NCiANCmRhbm55IChpbiBmcnVzdHJhdGVkIG1vZGUpDQoNCgkt LS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLSANCglGcm9tOiBzY290dCBncmFuZHN0YWZmIFttYWls dG86c2NvdHRnQHNub3djcmVzdC5uZXRdIA0KCVNlbnQ6IFdlZCAyOC8wNC8yMDA0IDE2OjQzIA0K CVRvOiBvbGR0b29scyANCglDYzogDQoJU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtvbGR0b29sc10gTW9yZSBMRk9E DQoJDQoJDQoNCg0KCUdyZWF0IHRhbGUgYWJvdXQgdGhlIGluZGljYXRvciBTYW5keSEgTG92ZWQg aXQNCgkNCgkgSGVyZSdzIGFub3RoZXINCgk8c25pcD4NCg0K ---- Start of Message 132748 ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-04-28 16:54:45 Subject: Things that make you go hmmmm... I was just poking around DATAMP looking for a particular square, and came across my new all-time favorite patent: http://www.datamp.org/displayPatent.php?number=201599&type=UT As Brian says in his description, "what else can you say?" -- Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL "He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; he who dares not is a slave" - Wm. Drummond ---- Start of Message 132749 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-04-28 18:07:26 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought Larry Marshall wrote: > What I'm getting a kick out of is the detail of these discussions > about rules for a competition that will never occur. :-) > I'm starting to think this myself - if it were possible, someone staying up all night would have done it in the last 4 days. we area a weird group. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 132750 ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 2004-04-28 19:32:20 Subject: Re: Things that make you go hmmmm... At 04:54 PM 4/28/2004 -0500, Ralph Brendler wrote: >I was just poking around DATAMP looking for a particular square, and came >across my new all-time favorite patent: > > http://www.datamp.org/displayPatent.php?number=201599&type=UT Probably a barber, trying to lend some precision to what used to be done with a bowl. ---- Start of Message 132751 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-04-28 20:08:39 Subject: Epoxy Diet GG's, I often find saws with nuts and/or screws, which are not all the same size. Usually they have lots of Patina. My question is, did any manufacturer do this purposely, or is this always a giveaway that it's been messed with. Sometimes it's obviously a replacement, but many time, a smaller screw, usually the top one, closest to the nose, looks original even though it's smaller. Any help? Second, I have a Bishop's cc saw with a horizontal crack thru the portion of the handle which you wrap your hand around. I can spring it open about 1/16". I tried using a straw, to blow in glue, but it didn't work too well. So then I tried using the straw to suck the glue thru, but well, that didn't taste, I mean didn't work very well either. Any ideas? Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Who's licking his chops over saws. ---- Start of Message 132752 ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-04-28 20:39:03 Subject: low angle jointer With all the talk about low angle planes recently and after looking at the new brochure LN just sent me I'm surprised no one mentioned the low angle jointer. It is the same body as the LN #7 but $105 cheaper, there's a deal. For $.02 worth re: what's the deal with low angle planes I think Jeff is right the real advantage is in being able to change the geometry without having to buy a second plane, only a second blade. Which is somewhat cheaper at least potentially. For difficult wood you can go either way high. low angle or toothed blades. Although some woods such as yew have left me frustrated and crying for a thickness sander. To me the question is not why want or have one but why they never caught on and were dropped from production. Of course Stanley never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity? Why don't they jump on the band wagon and make a quality plane now. The low angle is easier to make has fewer parts, works well and should be cheaper. Ken ---- Start of Message 132753 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-04-28 20:53:13 Subject: Re: Epoxy Diet >Second, I have a Bishop's cc saw with a horizontal crack thru the >portion of the handle which you wrap your hand around. I can spring it >open about >1/16". I tried using a straw, to blow in glue, but it didn't work > too well. So then I tried using the straw to suck the glue thru, > but well, that didn't taste, I mean didn't work very well either. > Any ideas? > >Al Perreault Hi Al, I've found that using a syringe works well. Here in NYC you can get them at any pharmacy without a prescription as long as you only buy ten at a time, after they look you up and down a few times that is. Your swmbo being a nurse and all, this should be no problem for you. Clamp with rubber bands, and two part epoxy's your uncle Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 132754 ---- From: Mike Rock Date: 2004-04-28 20:08:59 Subject: Plane maker Today I received as a gift several planes, wooden and iron. One iron plane has an odd depth adjustment. There is a lever attached to an eccentric on a handwheel on the underside of the frog. The lever travels at it's lower end in a cast trough in the frog. A pin on the this lower end engages a round hole in the iron and chip breaker. A patent on the blade says Jan 1880. The cap is held down with another small screw with a cast knob with decorative elements, eight flower petals (looks like a Japanese Crysanthemum on WWII rifles). Baileyish knob and tote, #3 size, in old but good condition. Any ideas? I will post a photo as soon as possible. Most respectfully, Mike Rock Who has to vote George Langford as the best packaging inventor of the month. Nothing rattles or wiggles in the package of a dozen or so items and the unfolded cardboard makes interesting shapes for the cats to play with. Thank you George.! ---- Start of Message 132755 ---- From: Joshua Clark Date: 2004-04-28 21:26:27 Subject: Re: Epoxy Diet I can't speak for other makers, but I know for a fact that Disston used different size saw screws in some handsaws. The 1911 Disston catalog I picked up at LFOD (already coming in handy!) shows two sizes of saw screws. Most saws have only one size, plus a medallion, but the 26 inch Nos. 3, 7, 9, 76, 77, 8, 107, and the D8 used one large saw screw and two small screws, plus a medallion. -Josh in CT- On Apr 28, 2004, at 8:08 PM, Alan Perreault wrote: > I often find saws with nuts and/or screws, which are not all the same > size. > Usually they have lots of Patina. My question is, did any manufacturer > do > this purposely, or is this always a giveaway that it's been messed > with. > Sometimes it's obviously a replacement, but many time, a smaller screw, > usually the top one, closest to the nose, looks original even though > it's > smaller. Any help? ---- Start of Message 132756 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-04-28 21:37:13 Subject: Re: Epoxy Diet > I've found that using a syringe works well. Here in NYC you can > get them at any pharmacy without a prescription as long as you Because it's epoxy, I'd recommend a cheaper, more disposable solution. Rather than trying to blow on the straw, get a straw/wood_dowel combination such that you can use the wood dowel as a plunger. If it's a really small crack, brass tubing with a piano wire plunger will work, though it's hard to get the epoxy in the tube in the first place :-) One can also thin epoxy with alcohol. This extends the set time but it's wonderful for situations like this. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132757 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-04-28 20:50:45 Subject: RE: Epoxy Diet Isn't this one of those places one wish they had a small hypodermic needle? I have wanted to snatch one from the trash after getting an injection but haven't because I'd hate for the Dr or nurse to come back in and try to explain to them it is for a tool habit when they could be thinking it could be for an addiction of a different kind altogether. > [Original Message] > From: Alan Perreault > Second, I have a Bishop's cc saw with a horizontal crack thru the portion of > the handle which you wrap your hand around. I can spring it open about > 1/16". I tried using a straw, to blow in glue, but it didn't work too well. > So then I tried using the straw to suck the glue thru, but well, that didn't > taste, I mean didn't work very well either. Any ideas? ---- Start of Message 132758 ---- From: David Charnon Date: 2004-04-28 20:52:33 Subject: Re: Milwaukee Rockler's having a used tool swap meet I stopped by I think it was last November. There were a few tools. I bought a block plane that has a Stanley blade from between 1874-84 (according to Bob Kaune's page) but the rest of the plane is not Stanley, at least not like I've seen. It cleaned up into a nice user. I also bought a Disston panel saw, dating around 1888-1895 or so, nib intact. I remember prices being very reasonable, but I also remember that the place wasn't overflowing with tools. I've been meaning to head back, but my weekends have been busy. It may be worth the trip if you are nearby, but I wouldn't travel far for it. dave in Milwaukee >> >>I've been meaning to ask you, or Jim E. #2, or any other lurking Milwaukee >> >> >galoots if anyone's stopped by the 3rd ward flea market that they've been >advertising in the Journal. The ad promises tools. Have there been any? > > >>Chris O. >> >> ---- Start of Message 132759 ---- From: "Bryan Lloyd" Date: 2004-04-29 02:28:50 Subject: re: Cooke's Saw Sharpening Service I second that! I just got back two saws that desperately needed sharpening from Steve Cooke and they are great. I sent him a Disson D-8 crossut and a Disston backsaw, both of which are now razor sharp and ready to go! Bryan Lloyd ---- Start of Message 132760 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-04-28 22:34:14 Subject: Re: Epoxy Diet > I often find saws with nuts and/or screws, which are not all the same size. > Usually they have lots of Patina. My question is, did any manufacturer do > this purposely, or is this always a giveaway that it's been messed with. > Sometimes it's obviously a replacement, but many time, a smaller screw, > usually the top one, closest to the nose, looks original even though it's > smaller. Any help? > Short answer, I think 26" Disstons were like this...long answer follows: Okay...I did a little looking into this. First, I did a quick check of some of the Disston's I have that seemed "most original." From these I found: 28" 1880's Disston & Sons D-8 Rip (with thumbhole): All same size. 26" 1896-1917 Disston & Sons D-8': Top screw is smaller. 26" 1896-1917 Disston & Sons D-8': Top screw is smaller. I thought this might be an age thing, but then I pulled out my reprint of the 1918 Disston & Sons catalog (part if The Handsaw Catalog Collection book I got from Astragal). On the pages where you could order saw nuts and handles, there is a chart listing all of the models and what size saw nuts they use. I never noticed this before, it is pretty useful. In that chart, the D-8's over 29" listed as having 4 "large" screws (plus medallion). The 26" and over category lists 3 large and 1 small (plus Medallion). This is consistent with my saws. Just quickly looking through that chart, the only saws that seem to have this mix of "large and small" are the 26" D8, D17, D117, Nos 9, 76, 77, 8 and No.99. In all these cases, the larger size (28") are listed with four "large" saw screws and the smaller sizes uses all "smaller screws." I think this chart contains saws that weren't in production in 1918 (No. 8 for example), so it might lists older models as a reference for replacement parts. Humm...Josh just sent an email that said: >I can't speak for other makers, but I know for a fact that Disston used >different size saw screws in some handsaws. The 1911 Disston catalog >I picked up at LFOD (already coming in handy!) shows two sizes of saw >screws. Most saws have only one size, plus a medallion, but the 26 >inch Nos. 3, 7, 9, 76, 77, 8, 107, and the D8 used one large saw screw >and two small screws, plus a medallion. Josh..are you sure you didn't mix up the "screw numbers" and quantities or something? My catalog lists just one "smaller screw" in all 26" cases with 2 or 3 "larger screws" (depending on model). Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 132761 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-04-28 21:28:35 Subject: Re: Epoxy Diet John, I got mine at the local feed store - used for giving shots to horses and cattle. I didn't bother to tell him I hadn't owned a cow in 50 years, and he didn't ask. Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Sawchak" To: "oldtools" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 8:50 PM Subject: RE: [oldtools] Epoxy Diet > Isn't this one of those places one wish they had a small hypodermic needle? > I have wanted to snatch one from the trash after getting an injection but > haven't because I'd hate for the Dr or nurse to come back in and try to > explain to them it is for a tool habit when they could be thinking it could > be for an addiction of a different kind altogether. ---- Start of Message 132762 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-04-28 22:41:51 Subject: Re: Epoxy Diet Whoops...regarding this... > In that chart, the D-8's over 29" listed as having 4 "large" screws > (plus medallion). The 26" and over category lists 3 large and 1 small > (plus Medallion). This is consistent with my saws. > This should obviously say: 'In that chart, the D-8's of 28" and over are listed as having...' not D-8's over 29". This was the result of last minute editing when I was drifting off to sleep at the keyyyyyboaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ---- Start of Message 132763 ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-04-28 23:13:46 Subject: What's in a saw... Esteemed, I've *GOT* to stop c*llecting, and start using. As I was reading some email from here and various handtool forums, I got to thinking "I would really like a nice old Disston saw". I'm fairly saw challenged (in that I only have a *FEW* more than I need, and none of them really noteworthy). My dad gave me a pre-sharpened D8 (rip), and the only crosscut I have is a, well, ashamed to say it, "modern" piece-o-crap from a big box. I did buy a lot (as in, not "a lot" but one single lot of 5) from Eb@y to learn to sharpen, and one of them actually IS a disston and I think crosscut pitch. Anyway... since I plan on learning to sharpen if for no other reason than to have a matched disston rip and crosscut set, and these will definitely be users, do the old saws *really* make much of a difference in cutting, or is it the sharpening? If I sharpen this thing and it doesn't cut well, is it my fault? Are the old ones really that much better? If so, what makes them so? I'm not even sure what I'm asking for here, but more of a stream of consciousness philosophical query... what's in an old saw? I will keep the D's because I like them. ANd people I respect do like them for their usage too, so I'll trust them, but what /makes/ them good as a user? In the sharpening vein, is it worth my time to resharpen the big box special? It really doesn't cut very well now, but I'm not sure it's me or the saw. Probably both, and mostly me. Bleh, pardon the length of this. Just venting. ---- Start of Message 132764 ---- From: Date: 2004-04-29 03:51:38 Subject: A 'new'old tool? from Saugatuck CT GG's, I found an interesting miter box with original saw that has stumped quite a few of the big time tool dealers. I've checked a dozen Brown's and Donnelly catalogs, web searched, checked the DAT, and came up with nothing but more curiosity. The saw has a patent date of Oct 10, 1893 and was made in Saugatuck, CT by the Tension Saw Mitering Machine Co.U.S.A. The saw is not a back saw but more of a bow saw (sans string-two rods) like the modern swedish saws. I have not done any type of patent date search and the patent number is not recorded on the saw. I'm ashamed to say I may not have done a thorough search of the archives but I've been offline for quite a while. I need to find out something about this mitersaw so I can get it off the nightstand next to SWMBO's nightlight. Please help, Desperate in VA, J Davis ---- Start of Message 132765 ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-04-28 23:02:48 Subject: Re: A 'new'old tool? from Saugatuck CT J. Davis writes about a new miter box he found: > The saw has a patent date of Oct 10, 1893 and was made in > Saugatuck, CT by the Tension Saw Mitering Machine Co.U.S.A. [snip] > I have not done any type of patent date search and the patent > number is not recorded on the saw. Here's your patent! http://www.datamp.org/displayPatent.php?number=506433&type=UT I'm sure Brian Pennington (the steward for this patent) would *love* to have the information you have from your tool. DATAMP did not have the information on the manufacturer, and we sure could use a photo of it! Just click on the "report data errors or omissions" link on the patent page to send the information to the data steward... The USPTO site has lots of good information on this miter box, including 4 pages of diagrams. ---- Start of Message 132766 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-04-29 00:15:17 Subject: Re: What's in a saw... Michael asks: >In the sharpening vein, is it worth my time to resharpen= the big box special? Short answer....No = > It really doesn't cut very well now, but I'm not sure it's me or the = saw. = it's the saw....really Check out the disstonian institute and read Why bother with handsaws http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/1essay.html= and also Analysis of steel in Disston saws http://www.disstonianins= titute.com/steel.html >Are the old ones really that much better? =A0I= f so, what makes them so? I always enjoy reading this essay, A biogr= aphical sketch of Henry Disston by his Grandson http://www.disstonianin= stitute.com/disstonbio.html I like the No. 12's and have a couple rip= : 5+1/2 and 8 tpi, for crosscut I have 8, 10 = and a tiny 12 tpi panel saw. I haven't seen a rip roaring saw discussio= n since the topic = of the basic user set came up last year. Thanks for asking the question.= Regards Jonathan = ---- Start of Message 132767 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-04-29 07:43:07 Subject: RE: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought : -----Original Message----- : From: Rex Wilson [mailto:luddite@t...] : Sent: 28 April 2004 13:40 : To: Jeff Gorman; oldtools : Subject: RE: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - : clarification sought : : >To keep toes on the ground, the principle objective being to : affirm or : >demolish the original legend? I can't recall seeing it definitively : >defined, but I've a feeling that it referred to Japanese : wooden planes - : >but that would be too tough a condition. : OK you guys; So can it (the joiner) be a LN or Big Bedrock? Yes. : Can the chip breaker (cap iron be one of the new LN heavier : models. OK The bedding angle and cutting angles are not : standardized right? Greater cutting angles than the usual 45deg require more pushing, hence a lower cutting angle on low-bed angle plane might be an advantage. Do the Japanese planes have lower cutting angles? : ............... And just what is American White wood? Tulip Tree wood to the Murricans - Liriodendron tulipifera - order Magnolidceoe to botanists, according to my reference. Note please, Tulip Wood is a very hard exotic with purplish stripes. :........................ Are the : contestants allowed to "wax" the soles of their battleships? Yes, one sine wave from a candle end at normal room temperature, say 60deg F, running from toe to heel. Amplitude 7/8ths of the width of the sole and frequency no less than 2". No pre-heating of plane bodies. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 132768 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-04-29 07:43:07 Subject: RE: Gorman-Grandstaff award - fettling foughts : -----Original Message----- : From: Richard.Wilson@s... [mailto:Richard.Wilson@s...] : Sent: 28 April 2004 17:54 : To: oldtools : Cc: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] Gorman-Grandstaff award - fettling foughts : : - And it should definitely become the GG TEST rather than : implying any : competition involved. I warmly support this principle. : : - I'll still provide a cup for the galoot with the thickest : 'self powered' : continuous shaving though.. Richard will know a very cruel joke about the second prize (which, out of respect for Richard's feelings, will remain un-uttered). Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 132769 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-04-29 09:13:33 Subject: Re: framing square Lamar keeney wrote: > I couldn't speculate on the age, but noicing the stamping of the > numbers, it looks to be hand made. The "O" and "1"S look all to have > come from the same stamp even of the eight. > Have you checked it against the inch standard now in use? As was commented in the recent thread on mass production, whilst the "inch" has varied, the variations in the standard have not been of a magnitude you would be likely to detect on a hand made framing square. BugBear ---- Start of Message 132770 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-04-29 09:48:42 Subject: Tail Vise configuration ? In response to Joe's query regarding Clif's bench. . . . --- Joe West wrote: > Why is the tail vise end of a traditional cabinetmakers workbench, like > Clifs, unsupported=3F That end of the bench hangs way over from the legs.= Clif opines > Maybe historically the space was to >allow someone to work in a sitting position and still have the bench in front >of them. Maybe there was some resource or building method that limited the >sizes of bases, too. >Of course, all of that is based off of personal experience and no direct >reference to anything concrete from a historical perspective. So I'll throw in another unsupported opinion. Firstly, the mechanics of the tail vise get in the way of any underframing. Consider that early versions, including the screw, were all wood, so the dual slides and the alignment blocks, all project below the bench top, making any framing around a leg at the corner fussy and non-standard. I may well be wrong, bu tmy impression is that a 'standard' rectangular framework with M&T joints, 4 rails, 4 stretchers, would be simple quick and cheap, easily made by an apprentice, massive, and separate from the top, which would be of a weight sufficient to sit atop with no fixing. Secondly, as Clif suggests, there is the facility provided by the clear space. Anyone working with chairs or drawers will appreciate that it becomes possible to clamp a drawer side in the tail vise, with the drawer front sitting on the bench top, only if there is no underframe to foul that portion of the work below the top. this allows for simple and precise clean up of the joints, or precise removal of that gnat's smidgin of width to get an air fit on the drawer. Chairs are similar. How many of us have cursed at trying to wrap the legs of a chair into the base of the bench past the conventional face vise and legs and mess that's under ther ( I disregard the plane parking field under mine for this example) The clear space allows the chair's legs - and arms, whatever, to dangle free whilst a part is worked on up on top - albeit dogs or other stuff may be in use. Only finally do we discover that the saw horse, or the rolling tool chest, or the essential stool, or the essential beer fridge, can also live there. Lots to be said for that clear space, and as for Morticing - why - that's what the other end of the bench is for. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman galoot with part built bench and several tail vise drawings. . . --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 132771 ---- From: "Jason Knight" Date: 2004-04-29 07:08:12 Subject: Re: framing square Larry Marshall writes: > Is it a >modern inch. Just curious. Yep, it's just about a modern inch. Each of the dividing lines is a full 1/16 of an inch, so I say "about a modern inch". How different would an "olde" inch be? Jason ---- Start of Message 132772 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-04-29 07:41:54 Subject: Re: Epoxy Diet > - suck it in with the plunger? If it's a real straw, it's large enough that you can sort of 'shovel' it in, just sliding the straw throw the blob (tech term) of mixed epoxy. I've never gotten a straw/plunger system that could provide sufficient vacuum to actually suck up thick epoxy. That's why I mentioned that the tiny tube was hard to fill. > > One can also thin epoxy with > >alcohol. This extends the set time but it's wonderful for > > I didn't know that ! ! This is the REAL trick of epoxy manipulation. It gets used regularly by people building models using epoxy and fibreglass. Here's another one. Often, when filling cracks, you're not really need really high strength. If you're willing to sacrifice a bit on strength, you can fill those cracks with finishing resin rather than epoxy glue. This stuff has two virtues, though it doesn't provide quite the glue strength. The first is that it's thinner than glue epoxy. It also dries harder, making the results of sanding much better as epoxy glue tends to be a bit rubbery in the face of sandpaper. All of the major makers of epoxy glues make finishing resin as well. Unfortunately, most also don't sell it in anything less than quart cans. BUT, one company, Pacer Technologies sells Z-poxy which is finishing resin in smaller (I think they're 8oz) bottles and the stuff works wonderful. Comes in a box with the two bottles and avaiable where they cater to radio control model airplane afficionados. If the quarts are satisfactory, boat-building suppliers will have finishing resins. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132773 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-04-29 07:44:55 Subject: Re: framing square > Yep, it's just about a modern inch. Each of the dividing lines is > a full 1/16 of an inch, so I say "about a modern inch". How > different would an "olde" inch be? ...don't know. I only asked because recently there was discussion of the standardization of inches in North America and evidence was provided relating 'variation' in that dimension. By the late 1800s, though, it seemed that concensus was that measuring inches was standardized. If you're interested that thread is in the archives. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132774 ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-04-29 11:27:13 Subject: re: What's in a saw... Didn't check the links in the earlier reply, but presume that they go to the articles about how good old saws, made during the time when handsaws were THE only saws on a job, were taper ground allowing less set and requireing less work to use due to less kerf. Well used old saws also have some of the essence of their former owners/users in them also. The saws have already been taught how to cut well. Well, maybe that is just my imagination, but holding one in my hand, I can almost feel the presence of someone who previously held it, cared for it, and used it with pride. As to sharpening, my first effort at sharpening a rip saw turned out very well, indeed. Following the instructions on Pete's site, I cleaned the old thumbhole D-8 and then set about filing the teeth, sharpening them, and then putting ever so little set into them. Upon test cutting I found that the saw wanted to wander a little to one side and that at least one tooth was cutting a little wide of the others set to that side. One swipe of a fine stone down that side, as instructed on Pete's site, and it was cutting straight and smooth. The first effort at a crosscut saw did not go quite so well. The saw did cut better than it had before being sharpened, and better than any of the modern box store saws I've had, even when brand new, but the cut was rough, the saw wanted to stick at a specific place on each cut, and it was just not satisfactory. I fiddled with it for a while but just could not get it to cut as nicely as I thought it should, so I set it aside and used it now and then, but went on to some back saws that needed sharpening. Again the rip saws seemed to do real well, but the crosscuts turned out less than expected. So I got a few newer old Disstons from e-bay and went to work on those. Finally, through practice and attention to what I was doing, along with thinking a bit on what was important as far as getting the saw to cut cleanly and smoothly, I have been able to turn out several nicely sharpened crosscutters. So I went back to that first crosscutter and jointed and refiled the teeth and sharpened them and now it cuts very nicely. So I guess that this extended expose is mostly to say that with patience and practice even I have been able to do a serviceable job of sharpening saws. And if I can do it, anyone can. So, give it a shot, don't get frustrated with less than optimal early attempts. Watch your gullets, both when filing new teeth and when sharpening them. A good job of filing consistent even teeth will pay a dividend when you start sharpening them requiring just a few strokes on each tooth. And, Oh Yeah! They are definitely worth the work. ---- Start of Message 132775 ---- From: Keith Mealy Date: 2004-04-29 05:50:09 Subject: Re: syringes was: RE: Epoxy Diet I buy syringes from my local pharmacy for 25 cents each. No Rx needed, no questions asked. My physician relative said that they'd rather people who need them have access to clean needles than other alternatives that result from dirty or no syringes. I use 3 ml size to inject glue or de-glue (vinegar or denatured alcohol) into cracks and joints. From: "John Sawchak" asks: Isn't this one of those places one wish they had a small hypodermic needle? I have wanted to snatch one from the trash after getting an injection but haven't because I'd hate for the Dr or nurse to come back in and try to explain to them it is for a tool habit when they could be thinking it could be for an addiction of a different kind altogether. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132776 ---- From: "Andy Seaman" Date: 2004-04-29 13:53:03 Subject: re: low angle jointer Ken, I've tried the LN low-angle jointer at a woodworking show and I don't think that it's as great as some of LN's other planes. Unlike the other low-angle planes, the jointer doesn't have an adjustable mouth. When I tried it, I found that it worked well for jointing (surprise) and not very well at all on board faces. While I'm sure that this plane will be useful for many other Galoots, I ask a bit more of my mondo-big (that's a technical term) planes. FWIW. -Andy ---- Start of Message 132777 ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-04-29 10:13:17 Subject: RE: Epoxy Diet Epoxy also gets much thinner if you warm it up, although that also speeds up its curing. I've used a hot water bath (and a blow dryer once) to warm the epoxy when I needed lower viscosity. One of the recent woodworking mags suggests using an *l*tr*c shop vacuum to suck glue into a tight crack -- you could even use some duct tape to seal the hose to the other side of the piece for maximum effectiveness. Finally, I've used unwaxed dental floss a couple of times to force white glue into a through crack. Not that effective for tight cracks, although my dentist gave me a sample of unwaxed Teflon-based "Glide" floss which might work pretty well. Ken "Ditton Park next Week" Meltsner ---- Start of Message 132778 ---- From: "Carl Matthews" Date: 2004-04-29 09:18:02 Subject: Wanted Pre-1899 Parker Vise Catalogs/Info Good Morning Everyone, =20 I'm looking for some information on Charles Parker Vises of Meriden, CT. It would be very helpful if I could find some early examples or some pictures in old catalogs. The company started producing vises around 1854. They sold both directly and thru dealers. I've found them in my AJ Wilkinson & Co and Walworth Mfg Co. The Sargent vises look a lot like the Parkers and although they don't seem to have the Parker name on them. Thanks for your help. =20 Best regards, .......Carl Carl Matthews Houston, TX ---- Start of Message 132779 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-04-29 07:22:04 Subject: Re: Epoxy Diet I have nothing against epoxy, but I am having a hard time understanding why anyone would want to go through all the contortions I have seen described here to use it on small cracks. I use CA glue and the process is almost instantaneous. Close the crack and apply the thin glue which runs all through the crack and sets in less than a minute. And if you close the crack well, the glue joint is almost invisible. As they used to say in radio commercials, "No fuss, no muss, no bother!" On Thursday, April 29, 2004, at 07:13 AM, Meltsner, Kenneth wrote: > Epoxy also gets much thinner if you warm it up, although that also > speeds up its curing. I've used a hot water bath (and a blow dryer > once) to warm the epoxy when I needed lower viscosity. > > One of the recent woodworking mags suggests using an *l*tr*c shop > vacuum > to suck glue into a tight crack -- you could even use some duct tape to > seal the hose to the other side of the piece for maximum effectiveness. > > Finally, I've used unwaxed dental floss a couple of times to force > white > glue into a through crack. Not that effective for tight cracks, > although my dentist gave me a sample of unwaxed Teflon-based "Glide" > floss which might work pretty well. > > Ken "Ditton Park next Week" Meltsner > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132780 ---- From: wayne.a.anderson@a... Date: 2004-04-29 14:26:21 Subject: Re: Epoxy Diet I got epoxy to flow into cracks by using vacuum. I put a blob of epoxy over the crack, then put the piece in a plastic bag and suck the air out. The epoxy disappears into the crack like magic. Remove the piece and wipe off the excess right away. I used a foodsaver, but would imagine a good freezer bag and a vacuum hose from the household vacuum cleaner would work ok. Just takes a couple seconds. Wayne ---- Start of Message 132781 ---- From: "John J Black" Date: 2004-04-29 10:30:13 Subject: RE: Tail Vise configuration ? Richard.Wilson Wrote: So I'll throw in another unsupported opinion... Only finally do we discover that the ... essential beer fridge, can also live there. Now that's my kinda Galoot...:) Best Regards, John John J Black (A Machigaloot getting ready to pick up Beech this weekend) Email: john@j... Cell 586.855-7975 Like I always say ... If it wasn't for me there wouldn't be anyone like me around ---- Start of Message 132782 ---- From: "Keith Wiley" Date: 2004-04-29 15:04:59 Subject: re: Wanted Pre-1899 Parker Vise Catalogs/Info If memory serves correctly the Parker Gun Company was located in Meriden (Until bought out by Remington in the 30's). I don't believe they diversified like Remington with typewriters or Winchester with everything, but I am aware of Parker-branded equipment associated with reloading, so perhaps they did produce (or stamp their name on) items related to gunsmithing. Not much specific help, but it might give you other places to look. Keith Wiley (Fascinated by the web of manufacturing that took place in the Connecticut River Valley in the 19th Century. Recently learned that Peck, Stow & Wilcox made monkey wrenches for Sargent.) ---- Start of Message 132783 ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 2004-04-29 11:43:13 Subject: Re: Wanted Pre-1899 Parker Vise Catalogs/Info How about a pre-1899 patent? http://www.datamp.org/displayPatent.php?number=11137&type=UT http://www.datamp.org/displayPatent.php?number=196380&type=UT Regards, Steve -----Original Message----- From: Carl Matthews Sent: Apr 29, 2004 10:18 AM To: oldtools Subject: [oldtools] Wanted Pre-1899 Parker Vise Catalogs/Info Good Morning Everyone, I'm looking for some information on Charles Parker Vises of Meriden, CT. ---- Start of Message 132784 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-04-29 09:36:15 Subject: treadle lathe Greetings All; I just acquired the fixins for an iron treadle lathe. Included is the lathe bed, saddle, rest, tail stock, head stock with three pulleys on the spindle, and an assortment of things that stick into or screw onto the business end of the spindle. Also included is a heavy, grooved iron flywheel about two feet in diameter. The flywheel is connected by a crank to a swinging bar with a stirrup at the end. Pushing the stirrup back and forth turns the flywheel. It operates very smoothly, but driving it requires a movement front to back rather than up and down as in most treadle devices I have seen. While it is a movement that can be accomplished from a standing position with a kicking motion, it seems as if it might work better from a sitting position. Having never turned anything in my life, I anticipate presenting a stream of questions for you knowledgeable gentlemen, particularly about the mysterious accessories. But first I need to build a stand for the lathe. And before I do that, I need to decide if I am going to operate it from a sitting position or a standing position. The Barnes velocipede lathe had a seat so I know a lathe can be operated from a seated position, but I can't recall ever actually seeing anyone do that. Is there a strong preference for a standing position? I can modify the mechanism to operate like a normal treadle, but it actually looks pretty cool and works nicely the way it is. Comments? Thanks! Blake ---- Start of Message 132785 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-04-29 12:54:16 Subject: need a little help Hello, I have to replace the sharpening stones that I ruined. (I like water stones, so no scary sharp please). I'm going for "new" stones, I just don't have the time to wait to find some older ones. I'm looking at the Nortons and the Shaptons, are there any other good alternatives? here's what I'm looking for: 220 grit - hard 1,000 grit - hard 4,000 grit - soft 8,000 grit - soft (maybe a 15,000 or 30,000 grit stone for the first anual Gorman- Granstaff eh?) I would also like to know if there are any wider stones than 2+3/4- 3" stones. Any help is appreciated Thanks Jonathan ---- Start of Message 132786 ---- From: "Jason Knight" Date: 2004-04-29 14:02:15 Subject: Re: framing square gary writes: > I'm betting your square was made in January of '42, I have to admit, I just got finished with an afternoon of 9th graders in a computer lab, so I may not be thinking clearly, but... which century are we talking here? My dad was born in 1934, so I would guess my grandfather was born in the 1900's, maybe 1910's. The supposed owner of the square (as far as my dad knows) was my great-grandfather, which would put him as school age in the 1890's, give or take. Before that, my dad has no knowledge of where the square came from . My dad is not a handy type. I was amazed that I found any tools in his basement. Jason ---- Start of Message 132787 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-04-29 13:03:59 Subject: RE: treadle lathe The reason standing is nice is that you often lean into and slightly over the lathe while feeding in various chisels and sandpaper. Maybe it is just me but I think a sitting pedaling position would be extremely difficult compared to standing. Plus a sitting position is going to interfere with the other end of a lathe tool. Lathe tools tend to be long. Figure from your elbow to your fingertips, at least, and if you look at pictures like Jim Thompsons website you will find tools like his "long n strong" that go well beyond that length. So the question here is how are you going to have room to move the other end of that tool when you are stuck in a sitting position? Two things are definitely going to happen -- your non-working tool end is going to run into either you, the seat, or both. Secondly you are going to lose the range of space your body needs to move to in order to turn say, a spindle table leg. Most tables are somewhere between 31-36 inches, on a quick average, so you need to have COMFORTABLE access to that distance which you won't being limited to a sitting position. You MIGHT, and I stress might, be able to get around it if you were to make that seat a bench and make the pedals either repeated along the bottom but even then I can't imagine making a bead with a skew a comfortable thing because it is most natural to do this from behind the chisel and if the bead is at or even remotely near the top or bottom of the leg this means your body is going to be where the tailstock or headstock is. How do you pedal or treadle from that position? Moreover, did the original user of the lathe do it or did they just hire someone to pedal it for them? I think they may well have had a little different approach to woodworking back then compared to the "one man shop" attitude we often tend to have now. Pedaling may have been the job of an apprentice because after all a turned table leg would not have been viewed as a neccessity but more of a thing of grandeur back then when any square table leg would do. I wish I could see a picture of what you are trying to describe. It would sure help this. I can't see why a typical flywheel to a crank to a swinging bar wouldn't be moveable to an up down motion. If not I suppose if you made a treadle that had a groove vertical in it you could still get your "front and back" motion while using the more comfortable treadle position. Anything can be rigged up. Yesterday I was rereading one of my popular woodworking magazines that had an old bodger using a treadle lathe that used something that looked like a longbow mounted inline with the length of the lathe. Where the single bowstring was a double and in the middle it went through a spool that had four holes. Around the spool went the typical piece of cordage that would be used as we know it for a springpole treadle lathe. IIRC, and I often don't on details like this, it was a 14th century improvement from the french on the lathe design. The benefit being this is all one unit so it is quite portable in comparison to most designs near its time. Great 'find', by the way. Beeswax was often used to lubricate the tailstock end. Buy a wax toilet bowl ring (I kid you not!) for the cheapest source of beeswax I know of. > [Original Message] > From: Blake Ashley > To: oldtools > Date: 4/29/2004 11:37:16 AM > Subject: [oldtools] treadle lathe > Having never turned anything in my life, I anticipate presenting a > stream of questions for you knowledgeable gentlemen, particularly about > the mysterious accessories. But first I need to build a stand for the > lathe. And before I do that, I need to decide if I am going to operate > it from a sitting position or a standing position. The Barnes > velocipede lathe had a seat so I know a lathe can be operated from a > seated position, but I can't recall ever actually seeing anyone do that. > Is there a strong preference for a standing position? I can modify the > mechanism to operate like a normal treadle, but it actually looks pretty > cool and works nicely the way it is. > > Comments? > > Thanks! > > Blake > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 132788 ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-04-29 11:33:50 Subject: Re: need a little help Jonathan Peck wrote: > Hello, > > I have to replace the sharpening stones that I ruined. Highland hardware has a nice 3 stone set http://tinyurl.com/3yz3c or 5 stone set http://tinyurl.com/2xqpg . They're pretty standard width, however. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132789 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-04-29 14:35:39 Subject: Re: Epoxy Diet > I have nothing against epoxy, but I am having a hard time > understanding why anyone would want to go through all the > contortions I have seen described here to use it on small cracks. > I use CA glue and the process is almost instantaneous. Depends on your assumption about the crack, Jim. You're assuming you can close the crack. I assumed that Al was talking about a crack that could not be close and thus needed to be filled. Truth is, my use of straws/plungers/epoxy is most often done to lay down a fillet between a plywood bulkhead and a fiberglass shell :-) -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132790 ---- From: Al Perreault Date: 2004-04-29 14:57:49 Subject: Re: Epoxy Diet > > > I have nothing against epoxy, but I am having a hard time > > understanding why anyone would want to go through all the > > contortions I have seen described here to use it on small cracks. I > > use CA glue and the process is almost instantaneous. > > Depends on your assumption about the crack, Jim. You're assuming you > can close the crack. I assumed that Al was talking about a crack that > could not be close and thus needed to be filled. Truth is, my use of > straws/plungers/epoxy is most often done to lay down a fillet between > a plywood bulkhead and a fiberglass shell :-) > > -- > Cheers --- Larry Marshall GG's, Obviously, some clarification is required. The crack can be opened, about 1/16", and can be closed, but I believe it will still be visible. It looks like the crack has existed for a while, and the edges of the crack are rounded or worn slightly. The wood is a lighter color, beech or apple with little or no finish left. There are some dark grain lines, to which the crack will blend in with to some extent, but any average Galoot'll probably see it. The crack is not purely planar, but is jagged internally, such that you could not load up a knife and stuff the glue in. I'm thinkin' about tryin' the vacuum bag idea suggested by Wayne. It's nice to see a discussion involving saws, takin' up the Porch's bandwidth. Rather than somethin' silly, like NH made tools. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, MA ---- Start of Message 132791 ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-04-29 14:15:26 Subject: Re: treadle lathe Blake Ashley wrote: > The flywheel is connected by a > crank to a swinging bar with a stirrup at the end. Pushing the stirrup > back and forth turns the flywheel. It operates very smoothly, but > driving it requires a movement front to back rather than up and down as > in most treadle devices I have seen. This is called a "kick wheel" or "walking wheel", and is almost exclusively used with watchmakers lathes. The main benefit to this style of wheel is that motion is smoother, which is a real benefit when doing high-precision graver work on tiny watch parts. This disadvantage of this kind of wheel is that it does not transmit as much power-- stomping on a treadle does a lot more than swinging your leg at the knee. Again, for clock lathes this is not that big an issue, but for wood lathes the lack of power would mean more chance that the tool would snag the workpiece. -- Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL "He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; he who dares not is a slave" - Wm. Drummond ---- Start of Message 132792 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-04-29 14:25:37 Subject: Re: What's in a saw... > [Original Message] > From: Jonathan Peck > To: oldtools > Cc: oldtools > Date: 4/28/2004 11:15:49 PM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] What's in a saw... > > Michael asks: > >In the sharpening vein, is it worth my time to resharpen the big box special? > > Short answer....No > > > It really doesn't cut very well now, but I'm not sure it's me or the saw. > > it's the saw....really I'll agree to disagree with that. Even if it is the saw often times the most difficult objects to work with are the best at honing ones own skill level. For instance I thought I was very good at sharpening nearly everything until I spent a winter in a big old nearly uninsulated 1800s parsonage house and NEEDED to know how to sharpen a chainsaw. Not that I ever would have been able to predict it but that kind of difficult sharpening (freehand with just a file, mind you) DID really help towards sharpening an old saw. So I still tend to lean towards a yes, just your practicing on the generic big box saw for sharpening can help you improve you and your own skills. Stepping back from that for a second any more awareness of anything in general is usually a good thing. Just like lately I have picked up the old backsaw back at my parent's place and ONLY due to these discussions have I become aware that my father had some good taste in saws. I think I have more than a few Disstons and Simmonds. Who knows what else... I haven't identified them all yet. > and also Analysis of steel in Disston saws > http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/steel.html > Wait now... he claims the backsaw is a high carbon steel that is too brittle. I am likely to think that is not a fault of the product, the steel, but the handling of it. Either in the tempering or possibly one other possibility. I have this Berg chisel I recently rehandled and I noticed the corner of the chisel was smashed in. Now I have never seen a chisel with a smashed in corner, they always chip off if they are abused so. But this smash combined with the shorter length of this particular chisel leads me to believe that maybe it has been worn beyond the hard heat treated end. How do we know this isn't a possibility with the backsaw he claims to have trouble with? To make this chisel have any worthwhile edge holding capacity it is obvious I am going to have to reheat treat it. I have more than a hunch that reheat treating that saw blade will probably help that. Matter of fact I suspect he will find that high carbon steel saw will be superior to the others once properly heat treated again. As an aside -- how come I have never seen a discussion of this -- what kinds of heat treating saws went through? Maybe his older saw got a different treatment than the newer ones which when he got so far back into the saw metal rendered it much less useable than the "newer" old saws? It seems to me it needs retempering specifically because I saw this old bodger on Roys show making lathe chisels out of a 1953 car spring and he tempered them not as you or I would do in an oven but by simply reversing it in the fire, putting the tang in first, and pulling it out and checking it from time to time to check for the straw color near the end. This means when heat treated this way the further you go up the chisel the softer it is going to get (which falls righ in line with my short berg chisel with the smashed in corner). I'll bet there is a similiar issue that transfers over to saws. Also for the life of me I can't imagine brittleness really being much of an issue for a BACKsaw because it is supported. If anything I would suspect his sharpening techniques were so used to the rest of the medium carbon steel that he felt like a fish out of water sharpening a high carbon steel saw blade. A harder surface should bode better for a saw typically used for mostly one thing -- cutting across the grain, often making fine miters since backsaws are most often used with miter boxes. ---- Start of Message 132793 ---- From: brian_welch@h... Date: 2004-04-29 16:12:54 Subject: Re: What's in a saw... As an aside -- how come I have never seen a discussion of this -- what kinds of heat treating saws went through? DATAMP has (at least) two patents for handsaw blade tempering: 65,946 by Christopher Richardson of Newark, NJ--one of the Richardson Bros., I assume (FYI--DATMP has it incorrectly listed as 659,476) 151,167 by George Simonds--who is definitely one of the Simonds Brothers (which was the name of Simonds between 1864 and 1868) Simonds claims that all of its saws have that special "Simonds Patented Temper"--although I am not sure that it is this patent. They did build their own steel mill, first in Chicago, then in Lockport, NY, to guarantee the quality of the steel. Alvan T. Simonds, grandson of founder Abel Simonds, president after 1913, studied at Harvard and also the School of Metallurgy in Sheffield, England, in addition to being trained in the family trade, so I know he took his steel very seriously. Brian Welch Worcester, MA Uncle Si says: "I'm a carpenter, so I'm not supposed to know a whole lot about steel. I do know there's good steel and bad steel and it doesn't take me long to tell the difference in the tools I use. I know a fellow who took an old Simonds saw, chopped a piece out of it and made himself a fine razor. The reason a Simonds Saw holds its edge and lasts so long is because there's better steel in it." (from the 1914 catalog) ---- Start of Message 132794 ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-04-29 16:13:17 Subject: First Try at Electrolysis Got an electro setup going the other day. Tried it out on a $3 flea saw. I used a piece of cold rolled steel about 1 1/2" wide the length of the saw on each side of the tank. The setup ran at 6 amps. Let it run overnight and scrubbing the black residue off was quite a chore. I used blue (very course) Scotch Brite and soap. This did not remove the black from the pitted areas. These will need to be wire brushed. My first impression of this process is not positive. After using the salt and vinegar method for a couple of years methinks it is easier and less messy. I want to try reducing the current flow to 2 amps or less to see if that makes a difference. If not I will try the concrete etch acid. Will the galloot who uses this method please contact me offline? If anyone has any suggestions on improving the electro method or reducing the current flow that will also be a help. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ---- Start of Message 132795 ---- From: "Mike Swindell" Date: 2004-04-29 20:29:16 Subject: Truing a wood plane sole I am the new owner of 3 new woodbodied planes from our friends at E... All 3 have a slight, 1/8 twist or otherwisw not square sole. I'd rather not try to square these on sandpaper, does anyone see an objection to using a jointer to flatten the sole ? I know the mouth will be enlarged somewhat, but if it becomes too large I can always glue in a patch and make the mouth as tight as I want. The planes are 16", 18" and 27" long. Iam worried that once jointing the soles, the wood will see new moisture and will acclimate to my shop causing new problems. Any help will be duly stored on my harddrive as my natural memory bank is overdrawn. Cheers Mike ---- Start of Message 132796 ---- From: Al Perreault Date: 2004-04-29 16:42:50 Subject: Re: First Try at Electrolysis Bill, Can you describe your zap tank dimensionally. You want the cold rolled steel as close to the saw as possible without touching. I use say 1", farther apart, and it takes longer. A wider piece of steel may help, it's a surface area thing also. I de-rusted an Atkins saw the other day, which was heavily rusted. I left the saw in about 1 1/2 days, cleaning twice during that duration, and a third time at the end, with gray scitchbrite. My setup was running about 2-3 amps. The final (4th) cleaning, to remove the last stubborn black, was done with 400 grit wet paper from Sears, lubricated with Boeshield B9. It came out very nice, not too much work. Last night I was working on the Bishop's cc saw (the one with the cracked handle). The blade was a dark black color to start, with only minor spots of surface rust, only one small pitted area the size of a dime, on the front side, at the nose. I zapped the blade at 3 amps for about 3 hours. The rust came off easily, however, the black, which was there before zapping, was quite a chore to get off. It took quite a while with the wet 400 grit paper, lubricated, to get the front clean, and some of the etch to appear (50%). The back will be done tonight, depending on the volume of homework I have to help the GIT's with. Can anybody explain what the black on the blade was. It looked like Patina, but I could not see the etch until I removed it. It was some stubborn stuff. Hopefully nobody chimes in to say that I just removed the anodizing from the super rare and extremely valuable Black Panther saw. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, MA Doing my best to keep this saw discussion going. > > From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004/04/29 Thu PM 04:13:17 > EDT To: "oldtools" Subject: [oldtools] First Try at > Electrolysis > > Got an electro setup going the other day. Tried it out on a $3 flea > saw. I used a piece of cold rolled steel about 1 1/2" wide the length > of the saw on each side of the tank. The setup ran at 6 amps. Let it > run overnight and scrubbing the black residue off was quite a chore. I > used blue (very course) Scotch Brite and soap. This did not remove the > black from the pitted areas. These will need to be wire brushed. > > My first impression of this process is not positive. After using the > salt and vinegar method for a couple of years methinks it is easier > and less messy. I want to try reducing the current flow to 2 amps or > less to see if that makes a difference. If not I will try the concrete > etch acid. Will the galloot who uses this method please contact me > offline? If anyone has any suggestions on improving the electro method > or reducing the current flow that will also be a help. > > Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT > > wcrittner@c... > > "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" > (Unknown) > > Remove "no" to reply > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To > unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132797 ---- From: "Chris Winter" Date: 2004-04-29 21:08:14 Subject: Re: More LFOD >The find of the day (which Chris Winter found for me--I call him my >Simonds enabler, as he finds saws for me and then makes me buy >them) was a super minty top of the line Simonds #61: There was actually a bit more to this tool tale. Josh, Brian and myself were group hunting when the hacksaw mentioned below got Brian all hot and bothered. And since I'm a self-proclaimed tool snob and mostly impatient, I decided to move on. As we had already been through the rows a few times, I went to the back row in the parking lot where there seemed to be a lot of commotion and a few more new trunks being cracked open. One fresh seller was a gentleman with just a few tools on the back of his truck with 3 panel saws in sleeves- all were pretty nice. I hadn't noticed the "blue" as Josh did later as I am partially color blind. I knew this was a "must have" for Brian with a baby girl at home and meager tool budget. But for the price (and yes, it was gloatable), this was one of those tools characteristic of the potential ailment known as COORS (Chronic Overwhelming Oldtool Regret Syndrome). Part II of the story is that a noted saw collector was just a few trunks down the line (que "Jaws" chorus). I knew where my possie was and bolted back to get them. I thought I should have just bought it but wasn't sure if he had one (of course, as I raced back I decided he didn't have one in that condition and would have bought it if I couldn't find him). I guess my reputation with SWMBO's is mud - tool "enabler" is probably an email mailer approved rendition of what was really said :) At least we didn't pile an anvil into a Honda Civic like the last New Hamsha trip... and yes a rather large anvil can fit behind the seat.... This trip Josh found a massive wall mounted post drill - tres cool and fortunately not quite as heavy. I also need to thank Josh for spotting a tool acquisition for me. It's a very nice Miller Falls #2 spoke shave (4 in 1). I spied a mint one last year and decided my woodworking couldn't be furthered without one - so I halted completion of any projects until one was sourced. Josh found it on a table I may not have looked at since the dealer was local. Another I picked up was something Tony Murland pryed from under a damp British rock. Anyway, it was fun despite the Friday rain and always enjoyable seeing other oldtoolies like Sandy, Dave Tardiff, the regular dealers etc. And a hearty thanks to Martin for another great production. Now HE is the enabler. SWMBO's take note!!! Enjoy the tools, Chris > >http://www.geocities.com/sawnutz/simonds/blue_ribbon.htm > >As you can see in the picture, not only did Simonds call their >best saws "Blue Ribbon", but the etch is actually BLUE. I have >never seen this before. Now I really don't consider myself a >collector, and I would like to think that I could and will use almost >all of the tools I own, but I am glad that this saw has never been >used, because otherwise I never would have known that >Simonds made Blue Ribbon saws with a blue etch. > > >I finally got to meet Steve Brackett, and bought this nice Simonds >#15 hand hacksaw with adjustable handle from him: _________________________________________________________________ >From must-see cities to the best beaches, plan a getaway with the Spring Travel Guide! http://special.msn.com/local/springtravel.armx ---- Start of Message 132798 ---- From: Kirk Eppler Date: 2004-04-29 14:35:56 Subject: Re: What's in a saw... An Advanced Archive Search on subject how disston made saws Turns up two articles posted by the esteemed Mr. Holloway and Mr. Hughes Not sure if it has the detail someone is looking for. brian_welch@h... wrote in response to the question: > As an aside -- how come I have never seen a discussion of this -- what > kinds of heat treating saws went through? > -- Kirk Eppler Process Development Engineering Eppler.Kirk@g... ---- Start of Message 132799 ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-04-29 17:37:09 Subject: Re: What's in a saw... John wrote....." > Wait now... he claims the backsaw is a high carbon steel that is too > brittle. I am likely to think that is not a fault of the product, the > steel, but the handling of it. Either in the tempering or possibly one > other possibility. ..... maybe it has been worn beyond the hard heat > treated end. How do we know this isn't a possibility with the backsaw he > claims to have trouble with? ..... I have more than a hunch that reheat > treating that saw blade will probably help that. Matter of fact I suspect > he will find that high carbon steel saw will be superior to the others once > properly heat treated again.... It > seems to me it needs retempering specifically because I saw this old bodger > on Roys show making lathe chisels out of a 1953 car spring and he tempered > them not as you or I would do in an oven but by simply reversing it in the > fire, putting the tang in first, and pulling it out and checking it from > time to time to check for the straw color near the end. This means when > heat treated this way the further you go up the chisel the softer it is > going to get (which falls righ in line with my short berg chisel with the > smashed in corner). I'll bet there is a similiar issue that transfers over > to saws. Also for the life of me I can't imagine brittleness really being much of an > issue for a BACKsaw because it is supported. ......". > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------- I think the odds of an average somebody successfully retempering a saw at home would be as they say "slim and none and slim just stepped out the door" I always encourage people to try to do stuff themselves but in this case I just don't think it would work . I have made and tempered thousands of tools and I know I would approach doing a saw blade with extreme reluctance. The main problem would having that thin blade warping on you and the difficulty of getting something that thin evenly heated. VERY much different ,[and harder!] then doing something like a chisel. I have never seen or heard of a saw that was made so that the steel got softer back from the edge like you see on a chisel. With a saw you need the whole blade hardened not only so that you don't get out of the hardened edge as you sharpen it but so that the blade will stay in tension and not be soft and bend during use somthing i think even a backsaw would do if it was soft up from the teeth. On most old chisels that are soft back from the edge it is because they were made out of iron and a steel "laid" on cutting edge done to save on costs and if the edge is soft it is because the chisel has been sharpened past the steel and is into the iron.I think all saws for at least the past 200 years have been made out of a solid piece of high carbon steel with one that were not being made out of iron which couldn't be hardened. In my experience many older [pre 1870 or so] saws can be more brittle then ones from the 1900's and I think this is from the lesser quality of the steel and /or the hardening process which was more hit and miss back then.This shows up lots of times by having the teeth snapping off when they are set though I have seen more then a few older back saws with a piece broke out of them ....maybe from hitting a knot?.........Todd ---- Start of Message 132800 ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-04-29 16:40:39 Subject: Re: First Try at Electrolysis Try this: http://66.175.18.153/Electrolysis/rust_redct_elect_setup.htm and this http://www.bhi.co.uk/hints/rust.htm and this http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/rust/rust.html I have used Electolysis for a couple of years with good results. Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Rittner" To: "oldtools" Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 1:13 PM Subject: [oldtools] First Try at Electrolysis > Got an electro setup going the other day. Tried it out on a $3 flea saw. I > used a piece of cold rolled steel about 1 1/2" wide the length of the saw on > each side of the tank. The setup ran at 6 amps. Let it run overnight and > scrubbing the black residue off was quite a chore. I used blue (very course) > Scotch Brite and soap. This did not remove the black from the pitted areas. > These will need to be wire brushed. > > My first impression of this process is not positive. After using the salt > and vinegar method for a couple of years methinks it is easier and less > messy. I want to try reducing the current flow to 2 amps or less to see if > that makes a difference. If not I will try the concrete etch acid. Will the > galloot who uses this method please contact me offline? If anyone has any > suggestions on improving the electro method or reducing the current flow > that will also be a help. > > Bill Rittner > R & B ENTERPRISES > Manchester, CT > > wcrittner@c... > > "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody > gets out alive" (Unknown) > > Remove "no" to reply > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 132801 ---- From: "Bruce Chrustie" Date: 2004-04-29 17:45:17 Subject: RE: Froe question Bob, I am in a similar situation and a friend has a Gransfors froe he has yet to use so I offered to try it out this weekend hopefully. I would not buy the LV one, but find a local blacksmith to make you one, or go for the Gransfors. Bruce in Ottawa ---- Start of Message 132802 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-04-29 17:54:01 Subject: Re: First Try at Electrolysis Hi Al & All, I'm a bit curious and interested in any comments y'all may have about Al's question about the black stuff on his saw blade. As I've stressed many times, I was never much of a tool user, but I did have two main user saws for the bits of carpentry type work I did do now and then - a mitre box back saw and a cross cut. Mainly used on pine. I can't recall doing more than a few cuts with either before they started getting black streaks on the blades which became solider black the more I used them. I just assumed it was some sort of gook saws picked up from wood. Now Al makes me wonder if it was as common and natural as I'd thought. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132803 ---- From: "M.Stadulis" Date: 2004-04-29 18:06:02 Subject: Re: Wanted Pre-1899 Parker Vise Catalogs/Info Carl, I just bought a 4" beaut Parker . Do you want a pic for any purpose? Regards, Michael Stadulis Gloucester County, New Jersey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Matthews" To: "oldtools" Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 10:18 AM Subject: [oldtools] Wanted Pre-1899 Parker Vise Catalogs/Info Good Morning Everyone, I'm looking for some information on Charles Parker Vises of Meriden, CT. It would be very helpful if I could find some early examples or some pictures in old catalogs. The company started producing vises around 1854. They sold both directly and thru dealers. I've found them in my AJ Wilkinson & Co and Walworth Mfg Co. The Sargent vises look a lot like the Parkers and although they don't seem to have the Parker name on them. Thanks for your help. Best regards, .......Carl Carl Matthews Houston, TX ---- Start of Message 132804 ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-04-29 21:58:06 Subject: re: First Try at Electrolysis First my experiences with electrolysis, then I have a question about it also. The process generally does well at reducing rust and maybe some other forms of oxydation. The dark stains, unless they are pitted from being rusted, are often other forms of chemical reaction and are not subject to the reduction which occurs on the rust. I have also read that other ungood things happen to the metal, but are mitigated to some extent by keeping the amps low. One of these is an increased pourosity of the surface metal which makes it more prone to rerusting. For these reasons, I use electrolysis on saws as a last resort. I did note with a badly rusted 112 I recently got, that prior to it being electolysized it easily made that singing sound one can get from a good saw blade simply by waving it up and down slightly by the handle. When it came out of the bath and was all cleaned it did not make that pretty sound. After sharpening and mounting it into a new tote, it still could not be made to make music. Well, one of the source on electrolysis that I read on the net said that for saw blades and such you should place it in direct sunlight for as many hours as it had been in the electrolysis bath to renew the tensil strength of the metal. At the time I laughed, but, decided that I would lose nothing by trying it out. The 112 would either get better or it wouldn't. Couldn't hurt it. So I tried it. And, believe it or not, it sings again. Anyone else ever heard of this or know more about it? Jerry ---- Start of Message 132805 ---- From: Jim Wallbridge Date: 2004-04-29 16:20:16 Subject: Re: What's in a saw... On Thursday, April 29, 2004, at 03:37 PM, todd Hughes wrote in part: > I think all saws for at least the past 200 years have been made out of > a solid piece of high carbon steel with one that were not being made > out of iron which couldn't be hardened. In my experience many older > [pre 1870 or so] saws can be more brittle then ones from the 1900's > and I think this is from the lesser quality of the steel and /or the > hardening process which was more hit and miss back then.This shows up > lots of times by having the teeth snapping off when they are set > though I have seen more then a few older back saws with a piece broke > out of them ....maybe from hitting a knot? Todd & fellow Galoots It seems to be a universal assumption that saws were quenched and tempered i.e. heat treated. Do we in fact know this to be the case? What I am suggesting is that the saw stock may in fact have been directly cooled (accelerated?) from hot rolling resulting in the appropriate properties without the need of additional heat treatment. This would now be called controlled rolling but I see no reason that it could not have been used in the past and if so it would provide additional explanations for some of reported properties of such saws. In addition these properties may have been modified by subsequent cold work. This could also be one of the characteristic that was being referred to with the different names for the steel used in various saws. jim (James ME Wallbridge P. Eng (retired).) Libertarian, Metallurgist, Wood & Metal Worker, Fly Fisher, Resident of Calgary, Canada's new head office location of choice. Permission is hereby given to use any or all information herein, as an attributed quote, unless the body of the message states otherwise. ---- Start of Message 132806 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-04-29 17:03:09 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought Wouldn't a skewed blade be advantageous? Or has that already been ruled out? Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Gorman" To: "oldtools" Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 1:43 AM Subject: RE: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought > Greater cutting angles than the usual 45deg require more pushing, hence > a lower cutting angle on low-bed angle plane might be an advantage. Do > the Japanese planes have lower cutting angles? ---- Start of Message 132807 ---- From: "Erik von Sneidern" Date: 2004-04-29 19:43:31 Subject: Re: What's in a saw... Jim asked: > It seems to be a universal assumption that saws were quenched and > tempered i.e. heat treated. Do we in fact know this to be the case? > What I am suggesting is that the saw stock may in fact have been > directly cooled (accelerated?) from hot rolling resulting in the > appropriate properties without the need of additional heat treatment. > This would now be called controlled rolling but I see no reason that it > could not have been used in the past and if so it would provide > additional explanations for some of reported properties of such saws. > In addition these properties may have been modified by subsequent cold > work. This could also be one of the characteristic that was being > referred to with the different names for the steel used in various saws. > jim > > According to Disston's Lumberman's Handbook this is the process: the saw blades at this stage are in the soft state and must be ''Hardened." To do this they are placed in the hardening furnace, which is heated by the use of fuel oil. The saw blades in this furnace are heated to a certain temperature, then taken out and plunged edge first into a special hardening bath. This makes them extremely hard, in fact as hard as it is possible to make them and they must therefore be handled very carefully until properly tempered. In order to make the saw blades so they can be used they must now be "Tempered," or a certain amount of this extreme hardness drawn according to the quality of saw desired, which is done by bringing them in contact with less heat than they were subjected to in the hardening furnace. This operation is a very delicate one. The whole article is here, or buy a reissue of the Lumberman's Handbook. www.disstonianinstitute.com/saw_works.html Erik von Sneidern ---- Start of Message 132808 ---- From: Randy Roeder Date: 2004-04-29 19:12:20 Subject: An Ode to a Wash Wringer Most bit brace enthusiasts are aware that Charles H. Amidon, a prolific developer of bit braces, once designed clothes wringers. There has been some speculation about the reason he might have had for abandoning a lucrative career in wash machinery development in order to concentrate on braces. Well, I've finally stumbled upon the answer. On July 31, 1865, Gunn, Amidon & Co. placed the following verses in the Greenfield Gazette and Courier. After their appearance, Amidon would have died of terminal embarassment had he ever shown his face among his wash wringer buddies again. The poem was actually published; I couldn't possibly make something like this up. "The Best Clothes Wringer" Lady, fair lady, O pray have you seen Gunn, Amidon Co.'s Wringing Machine? For beauty, utility, elegance, blend In this gem of perfection your helper and friend. Mechanics have striven again and again, To lessen the care and the labors of men, But this firm, enterprising, their genius gave, Your labors to lighten, your beauty to save. Pray madam, just try it, and then while you wring, Its excellent character truly I'll sing, Or rather young hopeful, (just five did you say), Let the little chap turn it for pastime and play. Observe ma'am its action--fine sport for the boy, Yet your labors accomplished, your clothes are all dry, Now wringing's a pastime, no longer a bore, Your delicate fingers to blister and sore. Just as good for a life-tme as you see it to-day, For rubber wears slowly, and now let me say That this cunning contrivance, this wonderful chain, The choicest production of Amidon's brain, Keeps the roller together, prevents any stress When you wring out your laces, your quilts, or your dress; Madam pray buy it--the blessing you'll prize, As the joy of your life, and the light of your eyes. The rich and the poor, may every one try it, For the pitiful sum of eight-fifty will buy it, When you've used it yourself for many long years, You can leave it your daughters, the charming young dears. On washing-day then they never will scold, And they'll cherish this treasure more precious than gold, It's better than potions for comfort or health, A household divinity, saver of wealth. You know very well your clothes when you twist, At the peril of every strained cord in your wrist, That your muslins are ruined, why now ain't it clear, That the jewel will pay for itself in a year. You may travel the land from the East to the West, And of wringers you'll find that this gem is the best; No useless encumbrance, simplicity clogs, No hard-working, useless, unsightly old cogs. They are quite superseded, extinguished 'tis plain, By Amidon's patent and wonderful chain; Simple, unique, most efficient it stands, The pride of America,--noblest of lands. Husbands who love and who cherish their wives, A wringer will lengthen, and sweeten their lives; Father who wish for your daughter's affection, Of presents this is just the nicest selection. To your cousin, connection, relation or friend, Nothing more potent on earth can you send, To win you their gratitude, love and esteem, Than the wringer I'm singing, the poet's best theme. I salute any of you who actually made if as far as this point and ask you to remember--"Repaint houses, not old tools" Randy ---- Start of Message 132809 ---- From: mimulus@p... Date: 2004-04-29 17:33:54 Subject: RE: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarificationsought Jeff wrote, in response to Rex's query about the GGA rules: > > ............... And just what is American White wood? > > Tulip Tree wood to the Murricans - Liriodendron tulipifera - > order Magnolidceoe to botanists, according to my reference. wuzzatden? You mean order Magnoliales, or are you using Lamar's spell checker? > > ........................ Are the > > contestants allowed to "wax" the soles of their battleships? > Yes, one sine wave from a candle end at normal room temperature, > say 60deg F, running from toe to heel. Amplitude 7/8ths of the > width of the sole and frequency no less than 2". No pre-heating > of plane bodies. And on to the main course-- What kind of wax? How much stearic acid in the wax? What diameter of candle, or more appropriately, what is the maximal thickness of the wax line being drawn? And while we're at it, the original quote about the Japanese planes mentioned that the board was simply tipped up and the plane did its deed. Are contenstants similarly constrained, or can we use ramps to achieve superluminal velocities prior to commencing the actual shave? Now I'm wondering if I can find a spare scanning-tunneling microscope to do some really fine fettling... cur ---- Start of Message 132810 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-04-29 18:49:07 Subject: Re: What's in a saw... Hi Jim--- This makes perfect sense to me. If someone could roll out sheets of tempered saw steel and make the saws directly from this stock, well, that would be the modern way---Atkins did say "All Silver Steel Saws are smithed by hand," (which) "removes any unevenness which may have been produced in the tempering processes...". I infer from this that the saws were tempered BEFORE they were smithed---Disston's ad copy implies the same. Boiler Factories are synonymous with noise---I bet the saw-smithy was PFL.... best to all galoots, everywhere; gAM Seattle --- Jim Wallbridge wrote: Todd & fellow Galoots It seems to be a universal assumption that saws were quenched and tempered i.e. heat treated. Do we in fact know this to be the case? What I am suggesting is that the saw stock may in fact have been directly cooled (accelerated?) from hot rolling resulting in the appropriate properties without the need of additional heat treatment. This would now be called controlled rolling but I see no reason that it could not have been used in the past and if so it would provide additional explanations for some of reported properties of such saws. In addition these properties may have been modified by subsequent cold work. This could also be one of the characteristic that was being referred to with the different names for the steel used in various saws. jim __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132811 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-04-30 02:06:45 Subject: Rust in the Big Easy GG's The end of the month SWMBOB and I will be spending a week in New Orleans. She on business, I on eating, drinking and goofing off ( do what your good at ) U don't remember a post from La. SO any tips on where to go to find some rust? Steve ---- Start of Message 132812 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-04-29 19:39:12 Subject: Re: framing square > gary writes: I'm betting your square was made in January of '42, --- Jason Knight wrote: I have to admit, I just got finished with an afternoon of 9th graders in a computer lab, so I may not be thinking clearly, but... which century are we talking here? Hi Jason--- I was thinking 1942---That's old enough to be handmade, and plenty old enough for everyone who really knows the story to be dead. My Dad was a daily tool user and he still was shaky on which tools had belonged to his father, Stanley W. May. I have dozens of them that are marked somewhere with his initials (SWM) or the full name, so I have corroboration on some, but not all of the tools that Dad SAID were his father's---in fact, several tools that were made after my Grandfather's death were alleged by my father to have been his father's; clearly they could not have been. These others probably belonged to my Great-Uncle Gully Walters, who glommed on to the heirloom tools for some twenty-five years after Grandfather died, until he himself died around 1972. It's possible that your square was made in 1742, but it doesn't seem likely to me. 1-7-42 is an option that occurs to me, but that kind of dating doesn't sound right for the 19th C, not to me, anyway. But what do I know? Hey, you didn't answer my question---does the square get more or less accurate as you add up inches? Is a foot a foot? Is 18" on the money or off a quarter? Don't get me wrong, it's a cool square no matter what---GAM-Seattle __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132813 ---- From: "Christopher Otto" Date: 2004-04-30 02:25:54 Subject: Identify these strange woodies I didn't buy The ad in the paper said "tools only, woodworking/machinist". And due to some lucky scheduling of some business travel I was able to drive over there on opening day. One plane was the size of a wooden jack, maybe 15" long and 2-1/2" wide... but the bottom was rounded, maybe a 4" radius or so. Manufacturer, one of the common ones like Ohio or Scioto. A little banged up but good enough shape to use. It's probably too big for a scrub plane, so what's it for? Other one looked like a plain ol' woodie rabbett but was only about 3/8" wide. What would be the advantage to using one that narrow, or did they use skinny ones like that for ploughing grooves or something? Since I couldn't figure out what I could use these for, I left them behind. Should I be kicking myself for this, trying to get a little consolation from the barely-used $20 Lion miter trimmer?? (The guy's wife thanked me for hauling that thing away...) Chris O. temporarily in Hudson, WI p.s. Milwaukee Galoots -- this one might still be worth a look. There was a pile of #3-4-5 size planes by Stanley, Craftsman, and ... uh ... fulton, not really mint condition but perfectly usable and priced from $10 to $12.50 (I didn't really need more of these so I only took two.) And a couple tables full of big-ass micrometers and other inspection equipment and some things with power cords if you're into those sorts of things. Check the Journal classifieds, it's in Hales Corners. ---- Start of Message 132814 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-04-29 23:24:40 Subject: Re: An Ode to a Wash Wringer Randy writes : >Most bit brace enthusiasts are aware that Charles H. Amidon, a prolific >developer of bit braces, once designed clothes wringers. There has been >some speculation about the reason he might have had for abandoning a >lucrative career in wash machinery development in order to concentrate >on braces. Amidon means starch in french... Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 132815 ---- From: T&J Holloway Date: 2004-04-29 20:41:49 Subject: Re: What's in a saw... On Thursday, April 29, 2004, at 03:20 PM, Jim Wallbridge wrote: > It seems to be a universal assumption that saws were quenched and > tempered i.e. heat treated. Do we in fact know this to be the case? > What I am suggesting is that the saw stock may in fact have been > directly cooled (accelerated?) from hot rolling resulting in the > appropriate properties without the need of additional heat treatment. > This would now be called controlled rolling but I see no reason that > it could not have been used in the past and if so it would provide > additional explanations for some of reported properties of such saws. > In addition these properties may have been modified by subsequent cold > work. This could also be one of the characteristic that was being > referred to with the different names for the steel used in various > saws. > I was trying to think how to recover the text I copied out of Silcox's book on Disston History, back in '99, on this question. Thanks to Kirk Eppler for the hint of an advanced archive search on "how disston made saws" It workes. The description of the process found there, apparently from Disston literature, makes clear that saw blanks were cut and worked *soft*, then hardened and tempered. Check it out. Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 132816 ---- From: "Bret Rochotte" Date: 2004-04-29 23:50:52 Subject: Blacksmith swage question Hello; I have these three swages: http://mypeoplepc.com/members/cwanimal/toolpixs/ I saw a picture in Richardson's book ((vol I, fig. 156 (I think,) around p. 172)) that resembles these except his were "boxed," to improve alignment of the top swage. He says they are for forming collars. Are my swages also for forming collars or for something else? I suppose I will need matching top swages in order for these to be of any use. Agree or disagree? I am hoping to set up a permanent forge with my power hammer close by, have not gotten around to it yet. Richardson's book is a little hard to follow for a slow head like me but it does have a lot of info in it. Was Richards an academic, or a man after Weyger's own heart or does he really know his stuff? Not wanting to be mislead, comments appreciated. Thanks, Bret ---- Start of Message 132817 ---- From: "Bret Rochotte" Date: 2004-04-30 00:27:44 Subject: Here is my new saw Hello; While we are on the subject of saws, here is a link to a picture of my newest saw. http://mypeoplepc.com/members/cwanimal/toolpixs/id1.html Atkins made a secondary line, this being an example. I also have a back saw bearing the same etch. Its pretty sharp and cuts well despite the pitting. I scraped it with a razor blade, sanded with 400 grit on a block lubed with wd-40. I had to do something with the handle because it was paint splattered and the original finish was crackled badly making it uncomfortable to hold. So I scraped off the paint and grime and used Formby's furniture restoring formula to dissolve the remaining finish and smeared it around with a rag. My method of cleaning without making it look over-cleaned. I know, there may be a drive by in this picture, I bought that last summer at a flea market for $80. The tilt bracket was missing, replacement easily fabricated. Send offensive replies directly so the sensitive among us are not offended. Bret Bret and Wendy Rochotte New Bremen, Ohio rochotte@b... ---- Start of Message 132818 ---- From: Dave Crawford Date: 2004-04-29 21:41:10 Subject: Re: Truing a wood plane sole Mike Swindell wrote: > I am the new owner of 3 new woodbodied planes from our friends at E... > All 3 have a slight, 1/8 twist or otherwisw not square sole. I'd > rather not try to square these on sandpaper, does anyone see an > objection to using a jointer to flatten the sole ? I know the mouth > will be enlarged somewhat, but if it becomes too large I can always > glue in a patch and make the mouth as tight as I want. The planes are > 16", 18" and 27" long. Iam worried that once jointing the soles, the > wood will see new moisture and will acclimate to my shop causing new > problems. > > Any help will be duly stored on my harddrive as my natural memory bank > is overdrawn. > > Cheers Mike Archive: > http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To unsubscribe or > change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > When I've seen Graham Blasckburn that's exactly what he suggests, including the patch for the mouth. The planes he uses for demonstrations use a contrasting wood for the patch. They're quite attractive. -- Dave Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. Orange County, California http://users.adelphia.net/~dbcraw/ ---- Start of Message 132819 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-04-30 07:42:28 Subject: RE: Truing a wood plane sole : -----Original Message----- : From: Mike Swindell [mailto:maswindell@y...] : Sent: 29 April 2004 21:29 : To: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] Truing a wood plane sole :=20 :=20 : I am the new owner of 3 new woodbodied planes from our=20 : friends at E... All 3 have a slight, 1/8 twist or otherwisw=20 : not square sole. : I'd rather not try to square these on sandpaper, does anyone=20 : see an objection to using a jointer to flatten the sole ? In fact this is the normal trade practice, whatever you may read in some = places. Take care that while the blade is withdrawn out of harm, that the wedge = is fitted at its normal pressure. If over-driven it can make the sole = concave. : ............................................I=20 : know the mouth will be enlarged somewhat, but if it becomes=20 : too large I can always glue in a patch and make the mouth as=20 : tight as I want. The planes are 16", 18" and 27" long. Iam=20 : worried that once jointing the soles, the wood will see new=20 : moisture and will acclimate to my shop causing new problems. Try trueing in two stages at weekly, or longer intervals. For removing twist, please look at my web site - Planing Notes - Coping = With Twist. Jeff --=20 Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK http://www.amgron.clara.net=20 ---- Start of Message 132820 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-04-30 07:42:29 Subject: RE: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarificationsought : -----Original Message----- : From: mimulus@p... [mailto:mimulus@p...] : Sent: 30 April 2004 01:34 : To: oldtools : Subject: RE: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - : clarificationsought : : : Jeff wrote, in response to Rex's query about the GGA rules: : : > > ............... And just what is American White wood? : > : > Tulip Tree wood to the Murricans - Liriodendron tulipifera - : > order Magnolidceoe to botanists, according to my reference. : wuzzatden? You mean order Magnoliales, or are you using Lamar's spell : checker? Apologies! for 'd' read 'á' and for 'oe' read 'œ'. : And on to the main course-- : What kind of wax? : How much stearic acid in the wax? : What diameter of candle, or more appropriately, what is : the maximal thickness of the wax line being drawn? : : And while we're at it, the original quote about the Japanese planes : mentioned that the board was simply tipped up and the plane did its : deed. Are contenstants similarly constrained, The principle aim should be to test one of woodworking's 100+ Old Wive's Tales. The rest is just for fun. : .................................. or can we use ramps to : achieve superluminal velocities prior to commencing the actual shave? I rather suspect that acceleration lanes would introduce more problems than they would solve. -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 132821 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-04-30 07:42:29 Subject: RE: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought : -----Original Message----- : From: Frank [mailto:dilloworks@s...] : Sent: 29 April 2004 23:03 : To: oldtools : Subject: Re: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - : clarification sought : : : Wouldn't a skewed blade be advantageous? Or has that already : been ruled : out? Would probably affect the steering? Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 132822 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-04-30 09:25:43 Subject: unusual massive bow saw Gentles all; I though you might like to see an extraordinary saw I found at my local auction last night. In appearance it's a conventional turning saw, complete with tensioning buckle and round handles in line with the blade. But the blade is over three feet long! I'd have thought the handle were a horribly non ergonomic shape for such a large saw, and yet the (uneven!) sharpening of the teeth appears to imply that this saw was a working tool amd not an oversized shop display item. I've put a couple of pictures up in the stop press section of my home page for any that want a butchers. http://www.geocities.com/plybench/index.html BugBear ---- Start of Message 132823 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-04-30 09:40:59 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought Jeff Gorman wrote: > > : -----Original Message----- > : From: Frank [mailto:dilloworks@s...] > : Sent: 29 April 2004 23:03 > : To: oldtools > : Subject: Re: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - > : clarification sought > : > : > : Wouldn't a skewed blade be advantageous? Or has that already > : been ruled > : out? > > Would probably affect the steering? Unless you had a perfectly matched pair of opposing skewed blades. We are talking fully customised racing planes here, after all... On a tangential note, the very best cylinder (reel, paddy) lawnmowers have twin oppoosing helical cutters, which not only minimises side force on the bearings, but also ensures that all the clippings are thrown neatly into the centre of the grass box. Normal blade: http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/square/gf86/prod04.htm Twin Helical: http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/square/gf86/prod12.htm BugBear ---- Start of Message 132824 ---- From: "Jason Knight" Date: 2004-04-30 07:12:45 Subject: Re: framing square gary writes: >does the square get more or >less accurate as you add up inches? Is a foot a foot? Is 18" on the >money or off a quarter? > Don't get me wrong, it's a cool square no matter what---GAM-Seattle First off, I agree with the last point, I've decided I may never be able to figure out the actual date of this square, but it's neat to have found a piece of family history. As for the accuracy of a foot... As I mentioned, the dividing lines are a full 1/16" in width. I checked last night, and some measurements were right on, others strayed a bit (none more than 1/16"). In other words, the gradations aren't perfectly consistent in length. So it looks like it was marked in "modern" inches by someone who was more interested in making a square than a ruler :) Jason ---- Start of Message 132825 ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-04-30 11:25:50 Subject: re: Identify these strange woodies I didn't buy I take it the rounding on the first one was over the width of the sole. I picked up an old Stanley Transitional some time back which had been altered in a similar manner. Figured maybe it was for coopering etc. It worked prtty well the one time I gave it a shot on a coopered door. ---- Start of Message 132826 ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-04-30 07:32:57 Subject: Re: A Nifty Router Plane Dan writes, > Here is a photo of a nifty little router plane I liberated from my favorite > rust dealer: > > http://www.dragonflycanoe.com/misc_images/routerplane.jpg > > The "frog" has two raised "bars" that form a channel to keep the cutter for > twisting. I presume it may have had (certainly it can have) interchangeable > cutters of different width. Any thoughts on maker, origin, etc. would be > appreciated. I've not seen anything like this before live or in books... My first impression upon seeing this: user-made, and the user was likely a patternmaker. Very straightforward shape for a pattermaker to form for his buddy in the foundry to cast (the form could be carved out of a wood block), yet probably a bit expensive to make as an infill if a fancier wood was used. Can't tell from the photo whether it's iron or bronze, but presuming it is iron. Could easily be a one-off? Looks equivalent to one of the larger Stanley and competitors' models. Seems as though it might work as well in terms of stability but maybe it is a little less maneuverable than the two-knob style? Have you tried it out in a little comparison test? Charlie Driggs Newark DE ---- Start of Message 132827 ---- From: tomthornton Date: 2004-04-30 08:11:32 Subject: Pike Grinder Catalog If anyone has a copy of a Pike grinder Catalog I'll pay well for a copy !!!!! All I have in catalogues is Luther & American Grinding Wheel ( American doesn't show their grinders, just their wheels -- Tom Thornton Cincinnati #3, Morristown N.J. USA Collector of old tools, specializing in Hand Cranked Grindstones ---- Start of Message 132828 ---- From: "Pat Comstock" Date: 2004-04-30 09:55:34 Subject: RE: Blacksmith swage question What you have there are indeed for forming collars.you could make a set of top dies by using the bottom dies to make a half collar then heat up your steel till it hurts and press them in your blanks with a flr press or with your power hammer(nice drive by by the way)or you could sell them to me. Paddy p Richardsons book was actually comprised of articles sent by working blacksmiths from that period so i would use it as gospel but with a grain of salt thrown in.There was "LESS" concern for safety in the early 20th century. >From: "Bret Rochotte" Reply-To: "Bret Rochotte" > To: "oldtools" Subject: [oldtools] >Blacksmith swage question Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 23:50:52 -0400 > >Hello; > >I have these three swages: > >http://mypeoplepc.com/members/cwanimal/toolpixs/ > > >I saw a picture in Richardson's book ((vol I, fig. 156 (I >think,) around >p. 172)) that resembles these except his were "boxed," to improve > alignment of the top swage. He says they are for forming collars. > Are my swages also for forming collars or for something else? I > suppose I will need matching top swages in order for these to be of > any use. Agree or disagree? I am hoping to set up a permanent forge > with my power hammer close by, have not gotten around to it yet. > Richardson's book is a little hard to follow for a slow head like me > but it does have a lot of info in it. Was Richards an academic, or a > man after Weyger's own heart or does he really know his stuff? Not > wanting to be mislead, comments appreciated. Thanks, > > >Bret > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools _________________________________________________________________ http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&S- U=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines ---- Start of Message 132829 ---- From: hunter.cox@i... Date: 2004-04-30 09:08:03 Subject: RE: Froe question I have the Lee Valley froe (about $35 or so) and have been using it quite a bit since the hurricane (Isabel) came through. I broke the handle on it (I think it was hickory, had some funny grain though) and replaced it with a dogwood branch that is stronger and smoother than the original handle. I don't know if anyone else has done this but I left the branch long on the other side of the eye, enough to grab and twist the froe with so that you could pry open the split if it was not going as fast as I needed. I do not have any complaints on this one, although if I had the facility I would have liked to try making my own, for the price I think I got a pretty good deal. Hunter in Richmond ---- Start of Message 132830 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-04-30 08:18:11 Subject: Re: More LFOD Scott Grandstaff said: > That treasure is still on the shelf and I've never grown tired of it. > I expect it'll be on an auction cover someday after I'm gone. Scott, Great story, but I assume that means we have to wait for the auction cover before we get to see a picture of the mysterious find. :-) Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ---- Start of Message 132831 ---- From: brucelove@c... Date: 2004-04-30 13:49:38 Subject: Re: framing square Just another two cents. First, it is very cool. I agree you may never know the full history. I have been somewhat skeptical that 1742 was a date - just because it seems odd to me that if someone made a framing square to use that they would bother to date it. I doubt they imagined someone might be using it (or be this interested in it) this far in the future. So...who knows what it means. Could be a mystery like the "33" on Rolling Rock Bottles (local PA beer with...oh...it's too long to explain, Jeff). Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 132832 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-04-30 14:59:29 Subject: Re: framing square This has been an interesting detective thread has anyone wondered if it is number 1742 of, say 2000 that were once owned by, the War Department, or the prison Service, or even a large Shipbuilder or works. .=3F Ex schools or WD tools often have 'inventory numbers' > I have been somewhat skeptical that 1742 was a date - just because it seems odd to me that if >someone made a framing square to use that they would bother to date it. I doubt they imagi Richard Yorkshireman by birth and inclination --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 132833 ---- From: mstadulis@c... Date: 2004-04-30 14:07:15 Subject: Re: Pike Grinder Catalog Tom, You let me down!! I told someone...hands down...that Thornton would have it!! Mike > If anyone has a copy of a Pike grinder Catalog I'll pay well for a > copy !!!!! > > All I have in catalogues is Luther & American Grinding Wheel ( > American doesn't show their grinders, just their wheels > > > -- > Tom Thornton Cincinnati #3, Morristown N.J. USA Collector of old > tools, specializing in Hand Cranked Grindstones > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To > unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 132834 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-04-30 10:11:52 Subject: Re: Identify these strange woodies I didn't buy Hi Chris & All, Chris asks about a jack-like woodie with a rounded bottom. Whelan's The Wooden Plane shows such a plane and calls it a "Gutter Plane" - used to make old time wooden gutters and such. He says many were user done mods of jacks vs. made as such. When I was barely getting started at tool collecting, I saw a beautiful matched set of such a plane and a mating rounding one. Price seemed a bit high and I passed them up on assumption I'd someday see another such set for less. Never did and kicked myself for years. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132835 ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-04-30 10:23:39 Subject: Re: framing square Bruce wrote....." >.... First, it is very cool. I agree you may never know the full history. I have been somewhat skeptical that 1742 was a date - just because it seems odd to me that if someone made a framing square to use that they would bother to date it..... So...who knows what it means. Could be a mystery like the "33" on Rolling Rock Bottles (local PA beer with...oh...it's too long to explain, Jeff). > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------- With stuff like this Bruce is right you just can't tell now what it means, while it could be a date it might not be the date that the square was made but maybe the date that the maker was born or maybe just an owners mark or even street address.Just don't know....as a collector of Powder Horns you will often see a horn from this time period with a date with the letters ADO in front of it which is I believe Latin abbreviation for Year of Our Lord and you sure would like to see that on this square eh? I have a fine fish effigy horn that is dated 1745 in small numbers under the lip and I showed it to another collector in the know and he with out seeing the date dated it to about 1750 which was pretty good I thought. The problem with hand made tools like this they just didn't change much and you can't date them by the way they are made or look .I see LOTS of hand stamped squares and I believe they were made pretty late, hell I made a small silver one a couple years ago myself but this square we are talking about does have an early look about it I think after awhile you sort of get a feeling about these things and while I don't think it was made in 1742 I wouldn't be surprised if it was made in the late 1700's or early 1800's but again just a guessin Bruce don't have to guess about that Rolling Rock "33" that was the year prohibition was done away with .....I called the Brewery once and asked them about it and the woman on the phone had a spel memorised saying that because she said they get dozens of calls a day asking about it ........Todd ---- Start of Message 132836 ---- From: "Jason Knight" Date: 2004-04-30 10:44:21 Subject: Re: framing square has anyone wondered if it is number 1742 of, say 2000 that were once owned by, the War Department, or the prison Service, or even a large Shipbuilder or works. Interesting thought. As I hinted, some of my ancestors likely had... experience with the prison service... Largely around the time of prohibition, but not exclusively. Ain't genealogy fun :) Jason ---- Start of Message 132837 ---- From: "Robert A. Weber" Date: 2004-04-30 10:35:47 Subject: Disston Panel Saw My father inherited from his Father-in-Law last year an old Disston Panel saw. I got a chance to look at it a little recently and when I went to the Disstonion Institute I couldn’t locate it. Here are the specifics: It’s short (I didn’t measure) which is why I’m calling it a panel saw. It has some sort of a black coating on it. The etch is clearly visible through the coating, so I don’t think it’s a patina, but an applied coating of some sort. The two things that really threw me, though, were the etch and the handle. I ’m pretty sure the handle had only three nuts, sort of in a row. The next time I visit my Dad I’m going to borrow his digital camera and snap some pics. The etch had a very clear keystone and the words Disston-Keystone. To the right of the keystone was the image of a man that was as tall as the saw. I wish I could remember if he was holding anything, but he looked like he was walking, not working or sawing anything. Anyone have any ideas, or is there somewhere on the Disstonian site with a catalog of Disston etches like the catalog of medallions? Rob in Peoria 1960 Anniversary Shopsmith Mk V Brownie www.geocities.com/robntweber www.geocities.com/momentsoffaith2004 Wood shavings on the floor! Wood shavings on the floor! ---- Start of Message 132838 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-04-30 09:02:38 Subject: Re: unusual massive bow saw Gentles all; > > http://www.geocities.com/plybench/index.html I'd wager it was an elegant bucksaw for lopping off firewood chunks at the sawbuck. I'm surprised the handle isn't even more bent if that was it's intended duty. Maybe a cooper crosscutting billets to be split for staves?? What was the old directive? If you can't decide what it is, and it's not a leatherworkers tool, it's for coopering?? 8^) yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 132839 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-04-30 09:09:00 Subject: Re: Identify these strange woodies I didn't buy Chris asks about a jack-like woodie with a rounded bottom. Whelan's The >Wooden Plane shows such a plane and calls it a "Gutter Plane" > I tried to buy one when I was making my stair rail. Couldn't find a reasonable gutter plane from the confines of old tool hell to save my life (this is new?). So, I got an ordinary narrow jack and made one up. Patching the mouth so it would actually work was the interesting part. It's a strange shaped little piece of wood! yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 132840 ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-04-30 17:09:35 Subject: re: Disston Panel Saw Here is a link to a second page on the DI site accessable from the "Keystone" page. Has some of the etches in the Keystone line. Don't know what the "coating" you mentioned is about. http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/key2.html Jerry ---- Start of Message 132841 ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-04-30 17:15:59 Subject: re: Disston Panel Saw Well, revisited the site and looked further into the "decalcomania" mentioned concerning the Keystone saws. Apparently it is something similar to the old plastic decals included in model airplane kits. Perhaps that is the coating you speak of. Who woulda thought? Jerry ---- Start of Message 132842 ---- From: Jim Wallbridge Date: 2004-04-30 13:10:21 Subject: Re: What's in a saw... On Thursday, April 29, 2004, at 05:43 PM, Erik von Sneidern wrote in part: > Jim asked: > >> It seems to be a universal assumption that saws were quenched and >> tempered i.e. heat treated. Do we in fact know this to be the case? > Eric replied: > According to Disston's Lumberman's Handbook this is the process: > > the saw blades at this stage are in the soft state and must be > ''Hardened." > To do this they are placed in the hardening furnace, which is heated > by the > use of fuel oil. The saw blades in this furnace are heated to a certain > temperature, then taken out and plunged edge first into a special > hardening > bath. This makes them extremely hard, in fact as hard as it is > possible to > make them and they must therefore be handled very carefully until > properly > tempered. In order to make the saw blades so they can be used they > must > now be "Tempered," or a certain amount of this extreme hardness drawn > according to the quality of saw desired, which is done by bringing > them in contact with less heat than they were subjected to in the > hardening furnace. This operation is a very delicate one. The whole > article is here, or buy a reissue of the Lumberman's Handbook. > > www.disstonianinstitute.com/saw_works.html I was not suggesting that all saws were not Q & Ted just that some may have been subject to another process particularly in the early days of saw production. I was quite aware that when saws became a major production item that they were subjected to a conventional quench and temper process like all steel items requiring a higher hardness up until recent times when controlled rolling has been used for some products at intermediate hardnesses between mild steel and those normally specified for quenched and tempered steel (i.e. up to about HRC 30). jim (James ME Wallbridge P. Eng (retired).) Libertarian, Metallurgist, Wood & Metal Worker, Fly Fisher, Resident of Calgary, Canada's new head office location of choice. Permission is hereby given to use any or all information herein, as an attributed quote, unless the body of the message states otherwise. ---- Start of Message 132843 ---- From: Thomas Conroy Date: 2004-04-30 12:16:49 Subject: Iron oxides (was: What's in a saw...) Galoots: Please enlighten me. There were a number of comments in this thread about black stains on zapped tools, and the difficulty of getting them off. Surely this would be the black oxide of iron? I forget which is ferrous and which is ferric, but my impression was that black oxide is stable, forms a thin coating, and then acts as a protection against formation of further black oxide and especially against red oxide (rust). And if the black stain is black oxide, surely it should be cherished for its stablity and protective properties, not removed? I won't say it should be cherished for its beauty since I haven't seen it, but I gather that the form of gun blueing that is the most primative, the simplest, the safest, and is considered the most beautiful is basically just hanging up the part in a damp box for a day, scudding off any red rust with steel wool leaving black oxide, and repeating this every day for months until the coating is solid. Am I missing something here? Is this just an issue of people-who-like-their-tools-shiny and people-who-like-their-tools-grungy? Except that my understanding was that black oxide isn't just a matter of "patina" as "cherishing filth for its own sake" (I have forgotten the psychiatric term for this, but there is one); I though that black oxide is a genuine change to the object that happens over time, that is difficult or impossible to copy, that has beneficial effects, and that has a distinctive appearance that can be taken as beauty--- in other words, it is "patina" in a real sense. Or is this something else that is just plain ugly? Tom Conroy Puzzled (or obnoxious) in Berkeley __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132844 ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-04-30 12:47:15 Subject: Re: Iron oxides (was: What's in a saw...) Thomas Conroy wrote: > Or is this something else that is just plain ugly? Well, it IS ugly, and although I've not yet zapped a saw, I wonder if it would end up rubbing off on your stock*, which is probably more ugly. * this would imply that one actually USES the saw on something against which the grunge could rub; say for example, wood. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132845 ---- From: NickNaylo@a... Date: 2004-04-30 17:01:58 Subject: Recent Neandering..... (long) Gentle Galoots, life has gotten busy enough that one designated shopnight per week is the best that can be done, and wanting to make the most of the time, a bit of pre planning has allowed a goodly amount of production to come out of the shop in the last few weeks. last week, discovered that with 6 inch carraige bolts in hand, it takes just two hours to produce a Galoot Shave Pony (tm) Camera's down, but here's the original http://home.rochester.rr.com/dmatthews/shavepony/ 36" 1x4's for the long parts. Leftover 2x4 chunks for the jaws and foot treadle, used 5/16th carriage bolts and wing nuts, drilling the holes (many) in the uprights and jaws with a 6/16 auger bit (had to sharpen it) the big holes make shifting the bolts between holes easier. Bottom jaw is about 16" and the top one about 12", foot treadle had to be redone from 8" long to about a foot. The block on the lower jaw, to be held in the bench vise is held on by a single lag bolt and washer, so the whole thing can move in the vise, but holds its place pretty well. Grooves in the jaws were started with a 044 (British metal plow) to plow a groove down the middle, then the skew chisels came out to make it a V groove. Have to deepen that. One disassembly to redrill the holes in the legs to make the jaws drop open a bit more, and the foot treadle needs to be screwed in place, when I had a single bolt thru it the treadle pivots unacceptably, so now its screwed in place. May glue it. Before I got to the shave pony, laid out the handle to a broadhatchet head that been sitting in the shop for a while and cut the blank out on the Neanderbuddy. Then built the pony, putting a very shallow 7/16 hole in the bench before I remembered an underlay. All my spoke shaves need sharpening, but the work of making and wedging an axe handle from scratch is a blast, I get to sit down and the action/practice of moving the work around and attacking from different sides etc is great fun as well as much faster and easier than in the benchvise. Did the roughing with the folding drawknife, both bevel up and bevel down and found both wooden and metal shaves all have their place in working ash handles. I was feeling very much the Galoot by the end of the night. Also brought out the last Guinness and made a few successful Black and Tan's with RedTail Ale. Never tried it before. The next week got right to work on a Froe club. With the broadhatchet, attacked a log brought home from a camping trip(22" long, about 6" thick across the bark) chopped a ring thru the bark about 8" down from one end. Hatchet chops really well. The one flat side kind of takes care of the wedging cuts that you'd need a bit of skill to work in a dbl. bevel axe. Tried to froe off slabs from the handle section, but it didn't quite work as well as I'd hoped. Out again comes the axe. Lots of chopping to take off all the bark and the corky underbark. Then ran a couple of long drywall screws thru two bench dogs to give myself a kind of poppet like way to hold the log in the endvise so I could drawknife off a lot more wood. Not the most secure way told hold the work (dogs sticking way out of the dogholes) but it worked well enough till the handle was narrow enough to get into the shave pony. I wasn't at first going to take the bark off the head, but the club was a bit too top heavy so the handle went into the pony and the bark came off the head, taking out a few earwig like bugs and grubs with the drawknife. So I ended up with a club that a bit more Langser than Underhill. Drilled a cord hole with a spoon bit in a spofford Iron brace and pretty much called it a night. The axe work is hard work, kept me nice and warm and a bit sore. Between the chopping, drawknifing and spoke shaving I made as much of a mess as the lathe does. Bark, shavings chunks of wood, if it wasn't so green it'd make great kindling and I can see the bulges in my forearms from all that gripping. The broadaxe works equally well gripped right up next to the head as at the end of the handle and is my new favorite tool. Lots of control. So with axe and froe and club, Saturday morning I'm off to the empty lot next to the gun store, where tree trimmers dump their overflow and there's a huge new pile of stumps and logs. Best, Michael-San Francisco ---- Start of Message 132846 ---- From: brucelove@c... Date: 2004-04-30 21:11:49 Subject: Re: Identify these strange woodies I didn't buy I was a little worried we might need to call for a SGFH intervention when I read this... > Since I couldn't figure out what I could use these for, I left > them behind. But, then I read this... > ...not really mint condition but perfectly usable and priced from $10 > to $12.50 (I didn't really need more of these so I only took two.) Boy...that was close. By the way, I think I have one of these Gutter Planes myself - last summer for $5 at a Garage sale I picked up that plane (seems user made - mouth is huge), a very worn coffin smoother (it cracks me up because it is so worn, it is obviously leaning to one side when you set it on its sole) and what is the nicest wooden joiner I have (reasonable mouth, was missing a handle but I actually had one that fit). It was one of the those amazing things because I was in an older somewhat suburban area not too far from my house where I expect to find maybe some saws (if lucky) or braces, or egg beaters drills, etc...and here are three woodies sitting on the grass in the guys front yard. I picked one up and he says "$5 for all three." What's a poor Galoot to do in that circumstance? I always wondered what the rounded bottom plane was for. Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 132847 ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-04-30 14:43:46 Subject: a crushing question on a clamp Sorry could not resist the pun. One of my Jorgenson Cabinet Master clamps has jammed itself on the head. It = slide down after I removed a board and it's quite stuck. normally you push up = on the handle which levers the locking arm into it's slack position, but with = the impact from the slide it's not budging. Only thought left is to return it for an exchange and that's obviously a design = defect and if they still have K-Bodies I'm going to trade it for one of those. Alan ---- Start of Message 132848 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-04-30 17:47:33 Subject: Re: Iron oxides (was: What's in a saw...) Hi Tom & All, Just to ease Tom's confusion, the black stuff on saws that I (and I think most others involved) have talked about is NOT a result of zapping. It's something that's built up on the saw in use. The two saws I mentioned having it were new from the store user saws with no black on them originally and never zapped. I thought at the time (and guess I still do) that it's some sort of pine gook deposit. Never seemd to rub back off on to newer sawings and never seemed to interfere with the action of the saw (not that I was a very good judge of that). But definitely not very attractive. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132849 ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-04-30 18:58:54 Subject: Re: unusual massive bow saw Bugbear, I just bought my first bow saw a new German one 700 mm. It has confirmed my opinion that the handles on these saws are not really handles but part of the blade holder. I have seen others holding the upright and this is how I assumed I'd use one. But that didn't work for me. I place the handle in my palm but hold the upright. It seems the frame of your saw was designed with holding the frame in mind. Note how it curves out to clear the knuckles. The 700 mm saw is a huge tool and at first I could not make it work. The blade would roll over and cut at random angles to the desired course. It took me about 6 practice cuts to get the hang of it. Now it's a tool I think I can control, after a few more practice cuts. Ken bugbear wrote: > Gentles all; > > I though you might like to see an extraordinary > saw I found at my local auction last night. In appearance > it's a conventional turning saw, complete with > tensioning buckle and round handles in line > with the blade. > > But the blade is over three feet long! > > I'd have thought the handle were a horribly > non ergonomic shape for such a large saw, and yet > the (uneven!) sharpening of the teeth appears > to imply that this saw was a working tool > amd not an oversized shop display item. > > I've put a couple of pictures up in the stop press section > of my home page for any that want a butchers. > > http://www.geocities.com/plybench/index.html > > BugBear > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132850 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-05-01 00:16:02 Subject: Blue Grass Brace Question I stopped by a little shop on the way home and saw an interesting brace. A Blue Grass with some really ugly blue plastic handles but an interesting chuck. Thr chuck was a knurled cylinder with no indentations and the directio controll on the ratchet was a pin about an eighth inch that was on the back of the chuck and moved from side to side to change direction. I didn't buy it because of the handles but wondered if anyone had an Idea who made it for them? In fact has anyone found sources of info on Bluegrass tools in general. I have a really nice crosscut saw that has a Blue Grass etch as its only identification. Steve Who finds that its time to take his snake bite tonic. Hey it works I haven't been bitten yet. ---- Start of Message 132851 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-04-30 20:29:49 Subject: Re: Recent Neandering..... (long) > last week, discovered that with 6 inch carraige bolts in hand, it > takes just two hours to produce a Galoot Shave Pony (tm) > > Camera's down, but here's the original > > http://home.rochester.rr.com/dmatthews/shavepony/ BRILLIANT!!! You just solved a problem for me. I've been pondering my soon-to-be-expanded shop layout in CAD and wondering where the shave horse (to be built) would go. Now I know. Much space saved. Thanks VERY much. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132852 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-04-30 20:38:53 Subject: Re: panel plane kweschin > moderate use with the only flaw being a very nicely done > replacement of the tip of the tote. In short...a keeper > http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=531 Finally!!! For those who have been trying over the past few days, the wdynamic/galoots..... URL is operational again. Jonathan, your Spiers plane is beautiful. Turning green with envy in Quebec. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132853 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-04-30 20:02:19 Subject: RE: Truing a wood plane sole To avoid the acclimation process changing dimensions further afterward I would shellac and wax them within a day afterwards. Even if you only use new shellac on the freshly cut bottoms I'd wax the whole thing even the old shellac finish. It's probably your best bet at sealing the wood enough to prevent any further moisture addition or subtraction twisting the wood. Good luck, sounds like a fun project! > [Original Message] > From: Mike Swindell > To: oldtools > Date: 4/29/2004 3:40:06 PM > Subject: [oldtools] Truing a wood plane sole The planes are 16", 18" and 27" long. Iam worried that once jointing the soles, the wood will see new moisture and will acclimate to my shop causing new problems. > ---- Start of Message 132854 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-04-30 21:13:57 Subject: pukey ducks GG Had a key experience today. Was doing a comfort based service call on a new house in a 55+ community. The older owner had just moved from a larger house with a shop, and his 2 car garage was full of cut out and painted plywood stuff stacked dozens high. there were: pukey geese pukey swans pukey dogs pukey pigs pukey santas pukey angels pukey shepards pukey wisemen and of course pukey ducks Thought of buying one from him, but try as I might, I couldn't do it. Ed minch ---- Start of Message 132855 ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-05-01 01:17:18 Subject: re: Iron oxides (was: What's in a saw...) You know you may have something there, although I think some of it is still another chemical reaction from stuff other than one or another form of H2O that got on the saw that was allowed to sit and react with the metal. Heck even some wood juices or the tannin from oak left on the saw would cause a reaction. As tough as steel is it is more susceptible to chemicals than a lot of other compounds. Personally, I don't mind the stuff being there as long as it doesn't rub off onto the wood. ---- Start of Message 132856 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-04-30 20:42:21 Subject: Re: What's in a saw... No offense but that really doesn't tell us much as far as heat treating goes. My impression of saw steel is that the back is springy and if you read a chart of what is required to temper high carbon steel into spring steel it is around 600-650 degrees if my memory serves me well. Now keeping that in mind a saw would have had to be tempered from the teeth side to get the teeth a softer rockwell hardness and the back less soft but more springy to support the work of the teeth. >From what I've seen on Roy's show the standard old way of doing this was by a blacksmith's tool that resembles a tongs with a large, almost saw vise size plate, attached to the working end. This was heated up and temporarly clamped to the item being heat treated. This allowed a much more controlled way to temper and made it far easier for the person watching to read what stages it is going through. But I admit I could be off on my own little tangent trying to understand why steel would be unneccsarily brittle. With old steel it could very well have been an issue of simply quality control. Steel was a big technology at that time, far less figured out than it is now. As such it was undoubtedly prone to mistakes or lower quality that would make it brittle. I guess I am reluctanct to some degree to admit, or even remember, that. I will bet that is why there is small amounts of all those other trace metals in the saw steel. Often other things added can help draw out some impurities that are discarded with the slag. This definitely got me thinking, almost obsessively, about "Saws on the Brain" because I when I woke up today I was dreaming I was sharpening a back saw. I guess I am in a little too deep at the moment. > [Original Message] > From: Erik von Sneidern > To: oldtools > Date: 4/29/2004 6:44:11 PM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] What's in a saw... > > Jim asked: > > > It seems to be a universal assumption that saws were quenched and > > tempered i.e. heat treated. Do we in fact know this to be the case? > > What I am suggesting is that the saw stock may in fact have been > > directly cooled (accelerated?) from hot rolling resulting in the > > appropriate properties without the need of additional heat treatment. > > This would now be called controlled rolling but I see no reason that it > > could not have been used in the past and if so it would provide > > additional explanations for some of reported properties of such saws. > > In addition these properties may have been modified by subsequent cold > > work. This could also be one of the characteristic that was being > > referred to with the different names for the steel used in various saws. > > jim > > > > > > According to Disston's Lumberman's Handbook this is the process: > > the saw blades at this stage are in the soft state and must be ''Hardened." > To do this they are placed in the hardening furnace, which is heated by the > use of fuel oil. The saw blades in this furnace are heated to a certain > temperature, then taken out and plunged edge first into a special hardening > bath. This makes them extremely hard, in fact as hard as it is possible to > make them and they must therefore be handled very carefully until properly > tempered. In order to make the saw blades so they can be used they must > now > be "Tempered," or a certain amount of this extreme hardness drawn according > to the quality of saw desired, which is done by bringing them in contact > with > less heat than they were subjected to in the hardening furnace. This > operation > is a very delicate one. The whole article is here, or buy a reissue of the > Lumberman's Handbook. > > www.disstonianinstitute.com/saw_works.html > > Erik von Sneidern > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 132857 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-04-30 20:51:09 Subject: Re: Iron oxides (was: What's in a saw...) I might be all wet here, but I seem to remember the oxides of iron being fe203 and fe304. One of them is rust and the other is caused by torch burning. Neither one is black. I think the black stuff you guys are referring to is caused by wood tannins which react with the iron to make a black film. Maybe that is an oxide of iron also. Any of you chemists out there care to elaborate? On Friday, April 30, 2004, at 06:17 PM, Jerry Palmer wrote: > You know you may have something there, although I think some of it is > still another chemical reaction from stuff other than one or another > form of H2O that got on the saw that was allowed to sit and react with > the metal. Heck even some wood juices or the tannin from oak left on > the saw would cause a reaction. As tough as steel is it is more > susceptible to chemicals than a lot of other compounds. > > Personally, I don't mind the stuff being there as long as it doesn't > rub off onto the wood. > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132858 ---- From: T&J Holloway Date: 2004-04-30 20:58:47 Subject: Re: Recent Neandering..... (long) And if any Newbies are still wondering why Rich the Level Guy would want to snag a T1 maroon Galoot cap at the recent LFOD, let the Shaving Pony page load, and scroll to the bottom. Scroll even further down, and you'll see Esther Heller's back yard. Li'l Tim Matthews must be all growd up by now. Tom Holloway, who has turned considerably grayer on top since those pics were taken in the summer of '98 On Friday, April 30, 2004, at 05:29 PM, Larry Marshall wrote: >> last week, discovered that with 6 inch carraige bolts in hand, it >> takes just two hours to produce a Galoot Shave Pony (tm) >> Camera's down, but here's the original >> >> http://home.rochester.rr.com/dmatthews/shavepony/ > > BRILLIANT!!! You just solved a problem for me. I've been pondering > my soon-to-be-expanded shop layout in CAD and wondering where the > shave horse (to be built) would go. Now I know. Much space saved. > Thanks VERY much. ---- Start of Message 132859 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-05-01 07:41:13 Subject: Re: Iron oxides (was: What's in a saw...) > > * this would imply that one actually USES the saw on something > against which the grunge could rub; say for example, wood. > Could someone explain USES? Is this a maker, or an owners mark? Al Perreault ---- Start of Message 132860 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-05-01 07:47:46 Subject: Re: Iron oxides (was: What's in a saw...) Saw Lovers, The black I am seeing covers the saw pretty much uniformly, and totally obscures the etch. I wouldn't think that a manufacturer would etch a saw, then cover it up. So is this black naturally occurring over time, or is it actually done purposely by the owner? The saws I have which are black, are different makers (Bishop, Keen Kutter, Disston) and are 1890-1910 time frame mostly. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, MA > Galoots: > > Please enlighten me. There were a number of comments in this thread > about black stains on zapped tools, and the difficulty of getting > them off. > > Surely this would be the black oxide of iron? I forget which is > ferrous and which is ferric, but my impression was that black oxide > is stable, forms a thin coating, and then acts as a protection > against formation of further black oxide and especially against red > oxide (rust). And if the black stain is black oxide, surely it should > be cherished for its stablity and protective properties, not removed? > > Or is this something else that is just plain ugly? > > Tom Conroy > Puzzled (or obnoxious) in Berkeley ---- Start of Message 132861 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-05-01 10:07:24 Subject: Re: Iron oxides (was: What's in a saw...) Hi Jim & All, Following Jim's lead, I did some Google searching for iron oxide info. Found that there are multiple types of iron oxides in a variety of colors - including black. Different types and colors are formed in the presence of different types of chemicals and conditions. Some like what we call rust is damaging to iron while others actually protect it. So it seems to me that the black stuff on saws that Al and I have talked about is probably some type of non-damaging oxide caused by something in the wood being sawed getting on the blade and leading to a black oxide-producing consequence. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132862 ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-05-01 11:55:38 Subject: Re: Iron oxides Jim Thompson wrote: > I might be all wet here, but I seem to remember the oxides of iron being > fe203 and fe304. One of them is rust and the other is caused by torch > burning. Neither one is black. I think this thread has diverged into a couple different topics (or am I misreading)? They are, as I understand: * what is that black stuff on a saw after you zap it? * what is that black stuff on a saw NOT having zapped it? I can tell you that once you use electrolysis, there *is* a hard-to-remove black haze on that which you zap. I somewhat doubt that it's related to tannins, only because I've zapped other things and they get it too, in places that has no contact with wood. ---- Start of Message 132863 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-05-01 12:13:35 Subject: Re: Iron oxides Michael campbell wrote: > I can tell you that once you use electrolysis, there *is* a > hard-to-remove black haze on that which you zap. I somewhat doubt > that it's related to tannins, only because I've zapped other things > and they get it too, in places that has no contact with wood. > I have never seen this black left over after zapping. I have zapped lots of stuff but never a saw - could it be related to saws only? Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 132864 ---- From: Dave and Connie Date: 2004-05-01 12:16:50 Subject: re: Recent Neandering..... (long) T&J Holloway wrote: > And if any Newbies are still wondering why Rich the Level Guy would > want to snag a T1 maroon Galoot cap at the recent LFOD, let the > Shaving Pony page load, and scroll to the bottom. Scroll even > further down, and you'll see Esther Heller's back yard. Li'l Tim > Matthews must be all growd up by now. Tom Holloway, who has turned > considerably grayer on top since those pics were taken in the summer > of '98 Tom, Tim's dad is considerably grayer too. Tim turns 11 in June and his brother Ben will be 15. Tim displays no geek or galoot tendencies. Ben is a geek but still a Normite. Gotta work on that. Both were on teams that made it to the OM state champs this year. I scan oldtools daily but get to do almost no woodworking. Too many other things suck up the time. Maybe when I can do an Esther and retire I will have the time to play again. I get the occasional note from someone finding the shave pony page. Most are looking for drawings and parts lists. I tell them to build one from junk wood to get the proportions and then do up a fancy one if they need to. Current projects: Dave - fabric on the wings of my 1941 Taylorcraft, Chesapeake 17 kayak Connie (galoot shirt maker) - embroidery mag article Ben - Wee Lassie 2 strip built canoe Tim - Play yet another online RPG Dave Retsof, NY ---- Start of Message 132865 ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-05-01 12:46:05 Subject: Re: Iron oxides Michele Minch wrote: > > Michael campbell wrote: > >> I can tell you that once you use electrolysis, there *is* a >> hard-to-remove black haze on that which you zap. I somewhat doubt >> that it's related to tannins, only because I've zapped other things >> and they get it too, in places that has no contact with wood. >> > > I have never seen this black left over after zapping. I have zapped > lots of stuff but never a saw - could it be related to saws only? Weird, I've never *NOT* seen it. Maybe it's due to what we're zapping /in/, or the amt. of rust on the piece? I haven't tried many really heavily rusted things, and I use normal baking soda (not the much preferred washing soda). ---- Start of Message 132866 ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-05-01 17:00:39 Subject: Re: Iron oxides Yeah, I got the feeling that we've diverged across at least a couple situations. Normally, at least with the couple of saws I've zapped, if the black yucky stuff doesn't come off fairly easily with water and a little rubbing with a scotchbrite pad, it goes back into the tank. The is the other stuff that is splotchy on the saw that only comes off, whether zapped or by some other method, with some harder abrasive such as sandpaper. I think this is a combination of the "good" black rust as well as other reacted stuff from other chemicals such as tannin and what-not that may have gotten in contact with the blade. Carbon Steel can have only two of three properties, if I remember correctly, hardness, tensil strength, and stain resistance. For saw blades, the first two are more important to their use than the third, so they are prone to being stained fairly easily. The question then, is how much metal do you want to remove to get a shiny saw? And some of the staining seems to go much deeper than I am willing to grind away. The staining does nothing to affect the useability of the saw, in my experience, so I leave it there. ---- Start of Message 132867 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-05-01 12:34:34 Subject: Re: Iron oxides Ed, Almost everything I have ever zapped has had a black coating that needed to be scrubbed/scraped off - yucky stuff. What am I doing differently/wrong? Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michele Minch" To: "oldtools" Cc: "oldtools" Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Iron oxides > I have never seen this black left over after zapping. I have zapped > lots of stuff but never a saw - could it be related to saws only? > > Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 132868 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-05-01 14:01:09 Subject: Re: Iron oxides Hi Frank & All, This is getting wierd. I've never zapped anything myself, but have friends who have, have seen a good many tools that had been zapped, and have read a good many threads here about zapping. I can not recall ever before seeing or hearing of this black deposit left by zapping that's now being cited. I do recall sights and talks of an ugly gray zap coating similar to that left by Naval Jelly. Is one man's black another man's gray or what? Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132869 ---- From: Matthew and Cathy Groves Date: 2004-05-01 13:12:09 Subject: Re: Iron oxides Perhaps some of the discrepancies can be traced to the different *water* we all use, unless you guys are using some sort of distilled or purified stuff. I know my water has all sorts of non-water in it. Could this be a source of black? Matthew > > Hi Frank & All, > > This is getting wierd. I've never zapped anything myself, but have > friends who have, have seen a good many tools that had been zapped, and > have read a good many threads here about zapping. I can not recall ever > before seeing or hearing of this black deposit left by zapping that's > now being cited. I do recall sights and talks of an ugly gray zap > coating similar to that left by Naval Jelly. Is one man's black another > man's gray or what? > > Best Wishes, > Bob ---- Start of Message 132870 ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-05-01 14:26:25 Subject: Re: Iron oxides Matthew and Cathy Groves wrote: > Perhaps some of the discrepancies can be traced to the different *water* we > all use, unless you guys are using some sort of distilled or purified stuff. > > I know my water has all sorts of non-water in it. Could this be a source of > black? That might be too. I use tap water (which I won't drink w/o being sent through a brita filter first for the chlorine). ---- Start of Message 132871 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-05-01 14:53:09 Subject: Re: Iron oxides I also use tap water, it is the same water we drink and make coffee with. I hope the black isn't coming from it. Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael campbell" To: "oldtools" Cc: "oldtools" Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Iron oxides > Matthew and Cathy Groves wrote: > > > Perhaps some of the discrepancies can be traced to the different *water* we > > all use, unless you guys are using some sort of distilled or purified stuff. > > > > I know my water has all sorts of non-water in it. Could this be a source of > > black? > > That might be too. I use tap water (which I won't drink w/o being sent > through a brita filter first for the chlorine). ---- Start of Message 132872 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-05-01 16:41:24 Subject: Re: Epoxy Diet GG's, I have finished gluing the cracked handle on my Bishop's 8pt cc saw. I used the technique listed below which was supplied to me by Wayne Anderson, thanks Wayne. I mixed up some 5 minute epoxy and placed a thick wad over the crack all around the handle. I then placed the handle inside one of those clear plastic oven roaster bags, that I, ah, I mean that my wife uses, to cook chicken. I then wrapped the bag opening around a Shop Vac hose, with long skinny attachment attached, pinched off the bag and turned on the Vac. The bag sucks down flat, and presto, the epoxy disappears into the crack like magic. I then clamped it up, and took the GIT's for ice-cream. I had some just to make sure it was safe for the kids. We came back a half hour later, and the handle looks good. I waited a while longer, sanded lightly with 400 grit paper, and she looks good to go. One of the screws, the now infamous small one was buggered up, so I stole a match of a rusty beat D7, with a hang hole in the blade, and "BUZZ" carved on the tote in big letters, and poorly carved no less. Now, a little oil and wax, and she'll be done. The saw is still pretty sharp with nicely shaped and even teeth. Does have a nib, screws are slotted. Oh, and very few of my tools SHINE. I do not attempt for SHINY, I stop before I get there. Probably just the inherent laziness of my gene line. My dad used to say it was the Mayflower descendant side. And another thing, there's the running discussions about black stuff. I have saws which I bring home rusty. The rust is red. I zap it, the rust turns black. I don't leave it in the tank too long (longest was 1 1/2 days). Maybe if I left the tool in the tank, all the rust and the black would go, but I have not tried that. I also have saws which have not been zapped, which have little or very little rust. The surface is mostly very clean, but jet black, totally obscuring the etch. Well, I don't like SHINY, but I do like to see etches, I guess it's a curiosity thing. So I do clean the black off, not enough to be SHINY, but just enough to see what the heck someone in the distant past thought fit to write there. But they are not SHINY. Oh, I think I already said that. Not that anybody who does like SHINY is wrong, their your tools. I just think that my way, I could always go to SHINY, at some later date, if my taste changes, or if the tool somehow changes hands. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, Massachusetts Who is also watching the three GITs today, while his wife takes a culinary tour of Boston's Italian North End. > I got epoxy to flow into cracks by using vacuum. I put a blob of epoxy over the crack, then put the piece in a plastic bag and suck the air out. The epoxy disappears into the crack like magic. Remove the piece and wipe off the excess right away. > > I used a foodsaver, but would imagine a good freezer bag and a vacuum hose from the household vacuum cleaner would work ok. Just takes a couple seconds. Wayne ---- Start of Message 132873 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-05-01 17:23:17 Subject: Re: Iron oxides > Ed, > > Almost everything I have ever zapped has had a black coating that > needed > to be scrubbed/scraped off - yucky stuff. What am I doing > differently/wrong? > > Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) > GG I know what you are talking about - the black powdery stuff that comes right off. If a tool is in good shape with only a little zapping needed, I will sometime use a piece of old terry cloth as a gentle "abrasive". But otherwise a scrubby wotks well. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 132874 ---- From: Thomas Conroy Date: 2004-05-01 15:52:49 Subject: RE: Truing a wood plane sole Galoots: Is shellacing the --soles-- of planes a fairly standard thing? Has anyone had iffy results from it? I wonder about shellacing wooden plane soles because of my experience with bookbinders ploughs, which are tools for trimming a book's pages level. You slide the wooden plough back and forth on a wooden press and as you do the blade is advanced and cuts the pages one by one. If that explanation is hard to follow, trust me, a more detailed explanation would be harder. I never understood how the thing worked until I saw one used. The point is that it involves a lot of wood-on-wood sliding. In several cases I have shellaced a press or a plough or both. I found that abrasion in use made the shellac ball up into little lumps, and if these lumps weren't scraped off frequently they gouged the wood opposite. The shellac coat was thin, but it was still enough to ball up (something to do with the mixture of friction heat and rubbing). So I avoid shellacing wood surfaces that will be rubbing against each other--- I hasten to add, before I am indicted for heresy, that this is one of the few situations where I wouldn't consider shellac (though more often than not I go for BLO). Maybe this is something where just wax would be better? Tom Conroy Berkeley __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132875 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-01 16:25:40 Subject: Acid vs. electrozapping. You may or may not remember my previous comments here about electrozapping. I don't like it, and I don't use it. I have found various methods of acid rust removal that leave electrozapping in the dust. Just yesterday I was at the automotive detailing supply store in my city when I found some acid wheel cleaner. I bought a gallon of it and tried it out today on the metal parts of a pretty rusty old keyhole saw which has a cool shaped handle. The handle is being treated with thin CA glue to stabilize the very weak wood. Look at the picture. It is the first one on the page. http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/PhotoAlbum55.html The parts come out of the acid exactly as shown. No black or gray crap to clean off. Total time in the acid was about 10 minutes. I agitated the bowl a little now and then. Rinse in running water and then dry and apply WD-40. It takes only a small amount of the acid to clean the parts, and then I put the acid back into its original container. I rinse the bowl with water. No fuss, no muss, no bother, as they used to say on radio commercials. The acid didn't bother my hands at all, and it was only mildly noxious smelling, but the smell was only apparent while I was stirring the mix. I can stop the process as soon as I see the results I want. And the acid does not appear to have any effect on japanning. The label lists sulphuric acid, hydroflouric acid, and phosphoric acid as the active ingredients. I have tried using the electrozap method of rust removal, and as I said above, I don't like it. Too slow, too messy, etc. What I can't figure out is why everyone clings to the electrolysis method. Time marches on! I sent a couple of tools that I had acid cleaned to Scott G. a while back and he was amazed at the end result. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 132876 ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-05-01 19:45:00 Subject: New Tools to ID A friend gave me an old flat blade screwdriver that looked a lot like a Stanley #2 London Pattern. When I got it cleaned the mark on the blade in an oval is - CAST STEEL FORGED C.H.CO. Has anyone ever heard of this company? Last night I bought an 8" rosewood bevel marked ELIOTT LUCAS ELVICTA CANNOCK ENGLAND. wHAT CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT THIS TOOL OR COMPANY? Lastly, on Thursday I bought a Lufkin #8142 tailor's square. It is 14" by 24". These may be common, but it is the first one I have seen. Thanks for any help. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ---- Start of Message 132877 ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-05-01 19:50:53 Subject: Re: Acid vs. electrozapping. Jim Thompson wrote: > It takes only a small amount of the acid to clean the parts, and then I > put the acid back into its original container. Not so sure I'd do that; any reaction caused by the acid weakens it, no? (I'm clearly no chemist, so if I'm wrong, do let me know.) ---- Start of Message 132878 ---- From: "Eric Coyle " Date: 2004-05-02 00:46:39 Subject: Stortz/ GP bench drill update. first the bad news. None of the gallooti illuminati have been able to provide hints, specifics, or even paritla details for the friction drive on by bench drill press. So, I is still hoping. OTOH, some fella with the last name fo "stortz" reseponded to my inquyiry about the storts spokeshave. - apparently it was made for the cooperage trade. I queried him about sharing it with you folks. Hope it is a positive response. Eric in Cowtown. ---- Start of Message 132879 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-05-01 18:51:29 Subject: Re: Atkins Saw Hi galoots--- Al sent me this URL about three hours before the auction closed---I took that to mean he wasn't intending to bid on it, and pinged him back to say that he should--didn't think it would go this low, or I'd've hosed Al and sniped in myself...ah well, I worked hard for the money and I've still got it, but it seems like I'll have a lot more opportunities to come up with $200 (where I'd've sniped it) than I will opportunities to buy another one of these... Who keeps kicking me? Oh, I'm doing that. best to all galoots, everywhere--- Alan Perreault wrote: Gary, Talk about tool porn: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3289123307 "Well son, the funny thing about regret is: it's better to regret something you *have* done than something you *haven't* done..." Gibby Haines __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132880 ---- From: Clif Palmberg Date: 2004-05-01 19:20:43 Subject: A spot for leashes Esteemed galooti, After a couple nights of work, I finished a place to hold our dog's leashes. Since no electrons were injured in the making of this project, I thought I would share. I realize this is the second project I have posted complete this week. Am I in trouble? http://homepage.mac.com/maclif/houseprojects/leashshelf/index.html My wife had a board with three nails in mind. I didn't think that was justice. I pulled out a piece of poplar, marked out the piece and called in the dogs, the Stanley 5 and 7 and disstons to square and clean it up to size. I chose to half-lap the two pieces together, and used the 55 for that. Since it is a real bear to tune after putting in a different blade, I have been doing all rabbets 1/4" at a time. I wanted to break up the edges some, so I curved the bottom of the holder and put the pegs in on a curved line. It was a fun little project, and a good, short project after my 8 month bout to built the workbench. (On a side note, I put a coat of thinned BLO on the milkpaint base of the bench, and it makes it look much better and seems much more resiliant now.) -Clif, Dallas TX ===== I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set it free. -Michelangelo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132881 ---- From: vladimir spehar Date: 2004-05-01 22:20:52 Subject: Craig Trealeven. Please ping me. ===== Cheers. Vladimir (Vlad) Spehar Spehar ToolWorks. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ---- Start of Message 132882 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-05-02 03:36:36 Subject: re: Acid vs. electrozapping. Nice job Jim. How bout a pic of the saw put together? Steve ---- Start of Message 132883 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-01 20:41:48 Subject: Re: Acid vs. electrozapping. I suppose you could dilute it and pour it down the drain, but I prefer to keep all such stuff out of the earth. I put it into the same container so that I can give to the toxic waste people when I am done. If I put it into a different container I would probably forget what was in it. It probably dilutes the mix some, but it isn't terribly expensive, and if it all goes bad I will just buy another bottle. Following good advice from the porch I will henceforth wear goggles and rubber gloves when using any of these acids. Ain't no need to cause harm to myself! Several galoots have asked offlist for the name of the wheel cleaner. The information on the bottle is this: ........................................................................ ............................................. AUTOSMART the affordable line of products that work. SUPER WHEELS #1 chrome and wire wheel acid. ........................................................................ ............................................. Exclusively distributed by Marco Dist. (949) 574-7676 and Autosmart Dist. (323) 462-8686 I suppose you can call and ask for a local supplier. ........................................................................ ............................................ I put the acid into a spray bottle and sprayed it on the rusty metal saw blade. It didn't even have to soak. I scrubbed the blade with a small wire brush a couple of times and then added more acid. In 10 minutes it was clean and bright. On Saturday, May 1, 2004, at 04:50 PM, Michael campbell wrote: > Jim Thompson wrote: > >> It takes only a small amount of the acid to clean the parts, and then >> I put the acid back into its original container. > > Not so sure I'd do that; any reaction caused by the acid weakens it, > no? > > (I'm clearly no chemist, so if I'm wrong, do let me know.) > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132884 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-01 20:51:08 Subject: Re: Acid vs. electrozapping. It is gonna take a little while to recondition the handle. It had been left out in the weather for a very long time and felt kind of crumbly. It wanted to break chunks off as I tried to scrape the finish to get the worst stuff off. To stabilize the wood I have given it 2 serious coats of thin CA glue which it sucked right in. Tomorrow I will give it another coat and hope that is enough. Then comes the tedious part. Beautification. I haven't compared this handle to my Jennings nest of saws which has a similar handle. Maybe I can dig out the Jennings set tomorrow and see. I found no markings on the keyhole blade, which didn't surprise me. There will definitely be a picture when I get it done. I wish the damned thing had a medallion or something! On Saturday, May 1, 2004, at 08:36 PM, Steve lineback wrote: > Nice job Jim. How bout a pic of the saw put together? > Steve > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132885 ---- From: "Andrew F in Australia" Date: 2004-05-02 04:26:44 Subject: Re: Iron oxides Hi Guys, I used to run a steel pickling line and can confirm that iron oxides can be black. Iron scale is invariably dark blue/black Here's a really rough rundown from my memory (I stopped working in steel 12 years ago, so I'm scratching the memory somewhat) Iron oxide has three basic, non-hydrated forms. FeO = Woostite Fe2O3 = Haematite Fe3O4 = Magnetite All three of these are black in colour when kept away from water. They complex easily with water and produce the familiar brown or dark-bluish coloured rust. My guess is that you have a layer of FeO or Fe2O3 on your saw blade - the Fe3O4 is a high temperature form, and I don't think that the saw blades are getting to 1100F - unless you're cutting "really" fast. George Langford may have more to say on the subject here - I'm running totally on a fading memory (in between coats of paint on a wall - time's up so I'm back to the "to do" list) Hope that this helps. Cheers, Andrew ---- Start of Message 132886 ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 2004-05-02 21:30:01 Subject: Re: Iron oxides The black stuff is the iron oxide after being zapped. This has been discussed before, the archives will have the name of the actual chemical. If you got no rust to start with, then there is no black stuff after zapping. Which begs the question: why would anyone zap if there was no rust there to start with? :D Cheers Nuno Souto in sunny Sydney, Australia dbvision@o... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank" > Almost everything I have ever zapped has had a black coating that needed > to be scrubbed/scraped off - yucky stuff. What am I doing > differently/wrong? > ---- Start of Message 132887 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-05-02 09:58:06 Subject: Good weekend I have a feeling that this weekend is going to be a good one. Tommorrow it is rumored to be nice and sunny and the outdoor flea market here opens up for the season. The weekend has started off better than most on the tool front. I hit the two indoor flea markets like I do every weekend in spite of the fact that there isn't much in the way of tools. But while rifling through a small box of rusty auger bits, looking for a #11, I came across a socketed mortise chisel. It was rusted up pretty good but I asked the guy what he wanted for it. I paid $2CDN, which is about 10 cents USD and took it home. There are no markings on it but once cleaned up and with a handle added, I think it'll make a fine user. I still have to sharpen it, though. Here's a photo. http://www.woodnbits.com/mortise_chisel.jpg -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ------------------------------------------------------- -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132888 ---- From: "Bruce Chrustie" Date: 2004-05-02 10:06:06 Subject: RE: Sashmaking article Man oh man if someone ever wants to fax me this article I would forever wish great tool finds in their future! As a side note, does anyone have any good references to sash window frame/casing construction? I have a Fine Homebuilding issue somewhere in the bookshelf that had an article on traditional casements but I will be darned if I can find it! Great day to be out there working on my cedar timberframe greenhouse listening to the birds chirp, rain fall, and shavings gently blow in the breeze. Back tot work I go....weekends rule! B. -----Original Message----- From: JTWad@a... [mailto:JTWad@a...] Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 10:15 AM To: oldtools Subject: [oldtools] Sashmaking article Assembled eminences: The current (March 2004) EAIA Chronicle contains a lucidly written eleven-page article on sashmaking and the tools used therefor, by the architect and old tool historian Jane Rees. It includes descriptions of exactly how the sash fillister was used, illustrated with both drawings and photos--a subject that occupied us here on the list some tme ago. It also revealed a "what's-it" I've owned for years to be a template for mitering the joints in sashes. Another good reason to join EAIA (shameless plug). John Wadsworth, looking at snow on the ground again in Delhi, NY ---- Start of Message 132889 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-05-02 10:14:28 Subject: Re: New Tools to ID Hi Bill & All, The DAT has the C.H. Co. listed as a maker of augers and screwdrivers, but has no data on where and when they worked - just reported markings from a couple of tools. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132890 ---- From: "M.Stadulis" Date: 2004-05-02 10:22:32 Subject: Re: Good weekend Larry, You are a DOG !!! Regards, Michael Stadulis Gloucester County, New Jersey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Marshall" To: "oldtools" Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 9:58 AM Subject: [oldtools] Good weekend > > I have a feeling that this weekend is going to be a good one. > Tommorrow it is rumored to be nice and sunny and the outdoor flea > market here opens up for the season. > > The weekend has started off better than most on the tool front. I > hit the two indoor flea markets like I do every weekend in spite of > the fact that there isn't much in the way of tools. But while > rifling through a small box of rusty auger bits, looking for a #11, > I came across a socketed mortise chisel. It was rusted up pretty > good but I asked the guy what he wanted for it. I paid $2CDN, > which is about 10 cents USD and took it home. There are no > markings on it but once cleaned up and with a handle added, I think > it'll make a fine user. I still have to sharpen it, though. > Here's a photo. > > http://www.woodnbits.com/mortise_chisel.jpg > > > -- > Cheers --- Larry Marshall > Quebec City, QC > http://www.woodnbits.com > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > Cheers --- Larry Marshall > Quebec City, QC > http://www.woodnbits.com > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132891 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-02 07:24:41 Subject: Re: Good weekend On Sunday, May 2, 2004, at 06:58 AM, Larry Marshall wrote: > > The weekend has started off better than most on the tool front. I > hit the two indoor flea markets like I do every weekend in spite of > the fact that there isn't much in the way of tools. But while > rifling through a small box of rusty auger bits, looking for a #11, > I came across a socketed mortise chisel. It was rusted up pretty > good but I asked the guy what he wanted for it. I paid $2CDN, > which is about 10 cents USD and took it home. There are no > markings on it but once cleaned up and with a handle added, I think > it'll make a fine user. I still have to sharpen it, though. > Here's a photo. > > http://www.woodnbits.com/mortise_chisel.jpg > > That is a very nice chisel! And for only 10 cents US. What a deal!!! :>) Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 132892 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-05-02 09:51:03 Subject: Re: Good weekend Veeery nice handle! Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Marshall" To: "oldtools" Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 8:58 AM Subject: [oldtools] Good weekend > There are no > markings on it but once cleaned up and with a handle added, I think > it'll make a fine user. I still have to sharpen it, though. > Here's a photo. > > http://www.woodnbits.com/mortise_chisel.jpg > ---- Start of Message 132893 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-02 10:12:45 Subject: RE: A spot for leashes Judging by those caribeeners I am wondering which mountain you walk those dogs up and down all the time. ;-) > [Original Message] > From: Clif Palmberg > To: oldtools > Date: 5/1/2004 9:20:51 PM > Subject: [oldtools] A spot for leashes > > Esteemed galooti, > > After a couple nights of work, I finished a place to hold our dog's leashes. > Since no electrons were injured in the making of this project, I thought I > would share. > I realize this is the second project I have posted complete this week. Am I in > trouble? > > http://homepage.mac.com/maclif/houseprojects/leashshelf/index.html ---- Start of Message 132894 ---- From: vladimir spehar Date: 2004-05-02 11:36:41 Subject: FS: LN 073 and others Good day folks, I have a LN 073 large shoulder plane. It is 1 year old, with the box, the handle shows use. There is minor surface oxidation on the sides, perhaps not even worth mentioning. Will clean up with 600 grit sandpaper. Asking USD 195 plus shipping. My other FS items are on my website at www.spehar-toolworks.com Thank you. Vlad ===== Cheers. Vladimir (Vlad) Spehar Spehar ToolWorks. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ---- Start of Message 132895 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-02 11:16:17 Subject: RE: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought > [Original Message] > From: Jeff Gorman > To: oldtools > Date: 4/29/2004 1:43:18 AM > Subject: RE: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought > > > > : -----Original Message----- > : From: Rex Wilson [mailto:luddite@t...] > : Sent: 28 April 2004 13:40 > : To: Jeff Gorman; oldtools > : Subject: RE: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - > : clarification sought > : ............... And just what is American White wood? > > Tulip Tree wood to the Murricans - Liriodendron tulipifera - order > Magnolidceoe to botanists, according to my reference. Note please, Tulip > Wood is a very hard exotic with purplish stripes. American white wood is often tulip poplar or poplar. It's a very straight growing tree very similiar to birch in appearance. In fact you could call it the poor man's birch tree. But the similiarities end at appearance as it is much softer wood and the wood often has a slightly green haze to it. It has become popular because it is very hardy and even in the coldest of areas it grows fast like a weed. So it is replacing pine as a favorite hobby wood and it doesn't have the associated pitch/tar/resin content that so noteably burns with p*w*r tools. It's a very easy working green wood. As far as fires go poplar will not be the fine heat producing product that birch is. Poplar usually produces more light than heat. ---- Start of Message 132896 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-02 11:50:35 Subject: Roy's latest Show -- Bookholder project and Spill Plane Just when I get thinking Roy Underhill is nearly out of topics or interesting things to talk about he comes up with fascinating shows like his most recent one. For anyone who didn't see the show this time Saint Roy took one inch thick board about a foot wide and proceeded to make it into a folding book holder. The kind that might sit on a table and hold the book at a roughly 45 degree angle. This in itself would not have been so amazing except for the fact that it had a wood hinge. Well, of course, that's no big deal as we have all seen wooden hinges but this one was basically 'carved' out of the one board. No making pins and glueing things back together. No real middle steps. He simply went from one board to one board with a hinge in it. Roy never ceases to amaze me. He started with a router plane to half the thickness of the board. Then to a bowsaw to continue down splitting the board into half its thickness from both ends. Later, when there was ample room, he moved to a standard rip saw leaving it far clear of the hinge area. Then three lines across both sides of the boards were laid out and at the end the typical baseball diamond. By alternating every other distance part of that wood was chiselled out to leave the diamond, then some cutting where the hinges would meet each other to seperate them and finally he finished cutting with the rip saw just until saw dust came through the chiselled out diamonds and presto! He opened up this one piece book holder made from one piece of wood! That is a project of such sheer beauty of design and creation that I had to mention it here. Not that the spill plane was any less of accomplishment. Apparently a jar of these "spills" were kept near the fireplace back in the day BEFORE WOODEN MATCHES were around. The spill plane is unlike any other plane you have ever seen before. The board rides in a groove in the plane and roy had the plane held down to the bench. The result is that a thin piece of wood comes out and curls around itself until its about the length of a standard lead pencil today. Only this is hollow and about half the thickness. Apparently these little spills were used to transfer flame from the fireplace to an oil lamp or cookstove or evening pipesmoke. The spill plane is a master of internal geometry. It was only one board, one wedge, and one quickly cut out piece of old saw steel. I'm sure a lot of you would have drooled over the grinder he had. You sit in it and pedal and up top it looked very much like a typical bench grinder of today's standards. It appeared to be geared driven. I did notice that whichever way he pedaled the top moved in the opposite direction. ---- Start of Message 132897 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-02 12:08:51 Subject: Re: Things that make you go hmmmm... Looks like just the old tool to get my wild winter beard back into shape. Seriously, though, I wonder if it maybe was meant for something vaguely related to spinning. Maybe the exposed area helped measure out fibers in relation to the thickness of the resulting yarn. I mean just because it is has a comb on it doesn't mean it was for use on HUMAN hair. It could have been a hatmaker's tool to accurate comb and measure a decorative hair/fur trim piece applied to a hat. Funny, though. > [Original Message] > From: Jim Nelson > To: oldtools > Date: 4/28/2004 6:34:09 PM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] Things that make you go hmmmm... > > At 04:54 PM 4/28/2004 -0500, Ralph Brendler wrote: > >I was just poking around DATAMP looking for a particular square, and came > >across my new all-time favorite patent: > > > > http://www.datamp.org/displayPatent.php?number=201599&type=UT > > > Probably a barber, trying to lend some precision to what used to be done > with a bowl. ---- Start of Message 132898 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-05-02 13:11:54 Subject: Re: Good weekend Michael said... > You are a DOG !!! [looking up from scratching myself]....woof. Jim said.... > That is a very nice chisel! And for only 10 cents US. What a > deal!!! I may have exaggerated the exchange rate just a bit :-) and Frank said... > Veeery nice handle! Once you get the wood that doesn't look like a handle removed, the rest is easy. I am saddened to report that the opening day at the flea market was nearly a bust. Things don't get advertised well here and it seems that lots of potential vendors didn't get the news and so it was largely empty. This was exaggerated by the fact that it was COLD!!!!! I'm not sure what happened to the predicted sun but as the morning broke the winds also intensified, making it a market for frozen fleas. I did find a nice Russell-Jennings expansion bit set, though. Not gloatable at $15CDN but I've been looking for an operational set for some time. Now what I need is to rent a Paul Bunyan type to drill large holes for me. Anyone make a motorized Spofford brace (grin)? -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132899 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-05-02 13:32:34 Subject: Re: Roy's latest Show -- Bookholder project and Spill Plane Hi John & All, Is the bookholder show John talks about really a new one? I can't remember the specifics of design in the detail John describes, but I recall a show a couple years ago on which Roy made some kind of book holder/stand. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132900 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-02 11:04:44 Subject: Keyhole saw revisited I got the handle for the keyhole saw in reasonable condition this morning. I added more CA glue to stabilize the wood, then carefully sanded it with 240 grit paper. This was followed by a spit coat of garnet shellac to even out the color somewhat. After the shellac dried I used #0000 steel wool to remove the shine and then waxed it. I didn't try to make the handle perfect. The best I can hope for on something pretty far gone like this is to make it look old and worn but well cared for. I put up a picture showing the just found handle and the Jennings handle side by side for comparison. They are not the same and the keyhole blade clearly does not belong in this old handle. It does not lock in place and thus moves around in the handle when you try to use it. I also put up a picture showing the refinished handle complete. http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/PhotoAlbum55.html My Jennings set is missing just such a keyhole saw blade. Maybe I can modify this blade to work in the Jennings handle. Unless of course someone out there has the missing Jennings blade????? Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 132901 ---- From: "Chuck Zitur" Date: 2004-05-02 12:31:30 Subject: RE: New Tools to ID Hi all Is it possible that C.H. Co is Cowles Hardware of Bridgeport Conn They are listed is the 1890 city directory as: Location 1: Railroad avenue junction Garden City: Bridgeport State: CT Occupation: hardware specialties Year: 1890 Business Name: Knapp & Cowles Mfg. Co. ,The I only mention this because i have seen more than a few of of the older flat bladed screwdrivers that are marked by this company both on the blade and sometimes stamped into the wooden handle. For what it is worth. Chuck Zitur Billings, MT ---- Start of Message 132902 ---- From: Jim Wallbridge Date: 2004-05-02 12:37:27 Subject: Re: Stortz/ GP bench drill update. On Saturday, May 1, 2004, at 06:46 PM, Eric Coyle wrote in part: > first the bad news. None of the gallooti illuminati have been able to > provide hints, specifics, or even paritla details for the friction > drive on by bench drill press. Eric One reason for this may be that other may not have received that post as I did. The last post, prior to the above, I can find coming in from you was on 04/04/16. I wonder how many other messages I am missing and where the problem is? Unfortunately I am not technically competent enough to trace the problem to the source. Is this a wide spread problem? jim (James ME Wallbridge P. Eng (retired).) Libertarian, Metallurgist, Wood & Metal Worker, Fly Fisher, Resident of Calgary, Canada's new head office location of choice. Permission is hereby given to use any or all information herein, as an attributed quote, unless the body of the message states otherwise. ---- Start of Message 132903 ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 2004-05-02 15:00:43 Subject: Oh a Rainy Day - A poem and a gloat {Editorial note: Normally I refrain from gloating over a well purchased tool, however since this piece is destined for my collection I feel its appropriate.} I went to the flea market This wet rainy day To see what treasures Just might happen my way. Arriving at dawn At the ending of night When I heard some one calling One of the sellers out of the dim light. He's a bit of a weasel And ornery as 'ell But once in a while He's got something decent to sell. I poke through his piles Setting a few things aside Got ready to settle when Much to my surprise There it was sitting As plain as the day Something I have been watching for Had finally come my way. Added to my pile We worked a price Of course had to dicker a bit At least oncest or twice. So this my tale Of fortune and luck And getting and 18th Century Bevel Square For only 4 bucks! http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/18thcbevelsquare.jpg Olde River Hard Goods 350 West Catawissa Street Nesquehoning PA 18240 570-669-9421 The best old tool store in Pennsylvania! http://www.oldetoolshop.com ---- Start of Message 132904 ---- From: Clif Palmberg Date: 2004-05-02 12:18:08 Subject: RE: A spot for leashes --- John Sawchak wrote: > Judging by those caribeeners I am wondering which mountain you walk those > dogs up and down all the time. ;-) > You know, the dogs love to rapel off the side out sheer rock faces. :) We use those to keep them in the back of the vehicle when we take them with us. -Clif in Dallas ===== I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set it free. -Michelangelo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132905 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-05-02 15:23:29 Subject: Re: Iron oxides Nuno, I have saws which are mostly clean, but the surface is covered with something which is black. It is black, similar to a gun barrel. There are isolated patched of red rust, that's why I zapped the saw. The red rust turned black in the tank, and removed easily, the original black was extremely hard to get off. Al Perreault Westminster, MA > The black stuff is the iron oxide after being zapped. > This has been discussed before, the archives will have > the name of the actual chemical. If you got no rust to start > with, then there is no black stuff after zapping. > Which begs the question: why would anyone zap if there was > no rust there to start with? > > :D > Cheers > Nuno Souto ---- Start of Message 132906 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-05-02 15:31:40 Subject: Re: Oh a Rainy Day - A poem and a gloat Tony, You are a gentleman and a scholar. Excellent bevel! Al Perreault > So this my tale > Of fortune and luck > And getting and 18th Century Bevel Square > For only 4 bucks! > > http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/18thcbevelsquare.jpg > > > > Olde River Hard Goods > 350 West Catawissa Street > Nesquehoning PA 18240 > 570-669-9421 ---- Start of Message 132907 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-05-02 15:48:50 Subject: Flea Market finds GG's, I slipped out of the house this am, and headed over to the local outdoor flea. I managed to find 3 items of use. The first was a MF #84B hacksaw, with red plastic handles, in great shape, for $1. Then I found a fireman's axe, 36" tall, 5" blade on one end of the head, and a nasty looking point on the other. The handle look unused, and I think is newer than the head. Id' guess the handle is 20-30 years old. I can't see any mark yet. The axe cost $5. The third item found was a draw knife, 8", by New Haven Edge Tool, should clean to Good+, blade has seen little or no use. The edge and bevel/bezel looks very uniform, like a factory edge. Handles are all there, very dark wood, and tight. Draw knife cost $5. I even picked up some cat iron animal figures, the kind that go in a Victorian garden. I bought them for SWMBO for Mother's Day (next weekend guys). I had to sneak them in the barn, but she looked out the window and spotted me acting clandestine, and after a flea market no less. I'm sure she'll go snooping, looking for the anvil, or vise, or stash of saws, that she thought I was sneaking into the barn. Now why would she think that? Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, MA ---- Start of Message 132908 ---- From: "Andy Seaman" Date: 2004-05-02 20:14:46 Subject: re: Acid vs. electrozapping. snippage: <> Jim, I work with these acids frequently and am a bit concerned as to the safety of this product you've found. I'm certain that the concentration is very low, but I'd suggest reading the manufacturer's label THOROUGHLY, checking their website for additional info, and then Googling for and reading the MSDS's for these individual acids. I suggest paying particular attention to proper ventialtion as hydrofluoric (HF) acid generates harmful fumes. By the way, does the container list concentrations? I'm curious to know how potent that stuff is. -Andy ---- Start of Message 132909 ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-05-02 16:45:20 Subject: Re: New Tools to ID This is possible. As I said the screwdriver looks exactly like a Stanley #2 London pattern screwdriver. Perhaps Stanley made them for Cowles Hardware. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Zitur" To: "oldtools" Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 2:31 PM Subject: RE: [oldtools] New Tools to ID > Hi all > Is it possible that C.H. Co is Cowles Hardware of Bridgeport Conn > They are listed is the 1890 city directory as: > Location 1: Railroad avenue junction Garden > City: Bridgeport > State: CT > Occupation: hardware specialties > Year: 1890 > Business Name: Knapp & Cowles Mfg. Co. ,The > I only mention this because i have seen more than a few of > of the older flat bladed screwdrivers that are marked by this company > both on the blade and sometimes stamped into the wooden handle. > For what it is worth. > Chuck Zitur > Billings, MT > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132910 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-02 14:03:26 Subject: Re: Acid vs. electrozapping. I am not a chemist, nor do I portray one on television or in the movies. My entire body of chemical knowledge consists of one semester of college chemistry successfully completed some 50 years ago. I retain almost none of what I learned there. I would assume that the concentration of acids in the product are very low. The product is sold in a store that sells to the general public for use cleaning the fine wheels on fine cars. (Can you spell "lowrider?") People with IQ's equal to their age buy the stuff and use it all the time. ( Maybe that has something to do with it???) Since the product has been on the shelves for a few years at least, I would think it is pretty safe. There have been no complaints about the stuff causing miscarriages, blindness, or arms to drop off or anything like that. :>) Any such complaint in California would draw a swarm of OSHA investigators sniffing for blood. I have used it on my cars for a long time now, and only recently got the idea that I could use it to remove rust from old tools. It seems to perform that function just as well as it cleans my wheels. There were 2 distributors' telephone numbers given in my post that should be able to tell you anything you want to know about the product. I am just a happy user. But if my leg falls off I am going to be back here complaining loudly. I just know that I will get all the sympathy here that I deserve. :>) Everybody does! On Sunday, May 2, 2004, at 01:14 PM, Andy Seaman wrote: > snippage: > < acid as the active ingredients.>> > > Jim, > I work with these acids frequently and am a bit concerned as to the > safety of this product you've found. I'm certain that the > concentration is very low, but I'd suggest reading the manufacturer's > label THOROUGHLY, checking their website for additional info, and then > Googling for and reading the MSDS's for these individual acids. I > suggest paying particular attention to proper ventialtion as > hydrofluoric (HF) acid generates harmful fumes. By the way, does the > container list concentrations? I'm curious to know how potent that > stuff is. > -Andy ---- Start of Message 132911 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-02 16:59:59 Subject: re: Acid vs. electrozapping. You sure about that? I thought he said Hydrochloric acid, but I already deleted the original post. > [Original Message] > From: Andy Seaman > To: oldtools > Date: 5/2/2004 3:28:31 PM > Subject: re:[oldtools] Acid vs. electrozapping. > > snippage: > <> > > Jim, > I work with these acids frequently and am a bit concerned as to the safety of this product you've found. I'm certain that the concentration is very low, but I'd suggest reading the manufacturer's label THOROUGHLY, checking their website for additional info, and then Googling for and reading the MSDS's for these individual acids. I suggest paying particular attention to proper ventialtion as hydrofluoric (HF) acid generates harmful fumes. By the way, does the container list concentrations? I'm curious to know how potent that stuff is. > -Andy > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 132912 ---- From: "P J McBride" Date: 2004-05-03 08:32:28 Subject: RE: Acid vs. electrozapping. GG's Yes Jim's original post was I would be very surprised if anything with hydrofluoric acid written on it would be for sale to the public. It is used it to dissolve vitreous enamel in jewellery. It dissolves almost everything, including skin where flushing with water does nothing to stop it. A dedicated treatment kit must be available when it is used. I just assumed it was a mis type, or spell check correction of hydrochloric acid, please tell me I am right ??? Regards, Peter in Melbourne, Australia where wood chopping season is here now. -----Original Message----- From: John Sawchak [mailto:jherbs@e...] Sent: Monday, 3 May 2004 8:00 AM To: oldtools Subject: re:[oldtools] Acid vs. electrozapping. You sure about that? I thought he said Hydrochloric acid, but I already deleted the original post. > [Original Message] From: Andy Seaman To: oldtools > Date: 5/2/2004 3:28:31 PM Subject: re:[oldtools] Acid > vs. electrozapping. > > snippage: < phosphoric acid as the active ingredients.>> > > Jim, I work with these acids frequently and am a bit concerned > as to the safety of this product you've found. I'm certain that the concentration is very low, but I'd suggest reading the manufacturer's label THOROUGHLY, checking their website for additional info, and then Googling for and reading the MSDS's for these individual acids. I suggest paying particular attention to proper ventialtion as hydrofluoric (HF) acid generates harmful fumes. By the way, does the container list concentrations? I'm curious to know how potent that stuff is. > -Andy Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To > unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 132913 ---- From: Glenn McDavid Date: 2004-05-02 18:19:06 Subject: Re: Roy's latest Show -- Bookholder project and Spill Plane On Sun, 2 May 2004, Bob Nelson wrote: > Is the bookholder show John talks about really a new one? I can't > remember the specifics of design in the detail John describes, but I > recall a show a couple years ago on which Roy made some kind of book > holder/stand. It is a rerun--this is the 2nd time I have seen it here (Twin Cities, Minnesota) this year. I think it is from a year or two back--our PBS station lags somewhat. At least they actually are broadcasting Roy this year. Glenn McDavid gmcdavid@c... gmcdavid@w... http://www.winternet.com/~gmcdavid/ ---- Start of Message 132914 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-05-02 20:45:07 Subject: Saw Handles Website GG's, I stumbled on this website, and thought some on the Porch may find this of interest. Scroll down till you see the photos of the saw handles, and double click them. Anyone looking for handle patterns (Steve) would find lots of interest: http://members.brandx.net/websites/bbrode/woodwork/tools_gallery/handles/ Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster MA ---- Start of Message 132915 ---- From: T&J Holloway Date: 2004-05-02 18:00:17 Subject: Re: Roy's latest Show -- Bookholder project and Spill Plane Does anyone know if this project appears in a book or website anywhere, by Roy or someone else? Sounds like a project I might like to try, if and when I get some shop time--not a Normite thing, from the description posted. TIA, Tom Holloway, where the Sacramento, CA PBS station has apparently never *heard* of Roy Underhill... On Sunday, May 2, 2004, at 04:19 PM, Glenn McDavid wrote: > On Sun, 2 May 2004, Bob Nelson wrote: > >> Is the bookholder show John talks about really a new one? I can't >> remember the specifics of design in the detail John describes, but I >> recall a show a couple years ago on which Roy made some kind of book >> holder/stand. > > It is a rerun--this is the 2nd time I have seen it here (Twin Cities, > Minnesota) this year. I think it is from a year or two back--our PBS > station lags somewhat. At least they actually are broadcasting Roy > this > year. ---- Start of Message 132916 ---- From: Clif Palmberg Date: 2004-05-02 19:49:37 Subject: Admitting it is the first step: saw problem I've got the jitters, folks. I think I may have ingested a bit *too* much rust over the weekend. A friend of mine is closing his furniture store with a back room jammed full of old tools. Since we do a lot of business, he offered me first dibs on his tools. This weekend, I rummaged through and bought as much as I couldn't really afford. Part of the deal, sweetening him to give me a deal on a few things I really wanted, I bought every last non-disston saw he had, but had to buy them all. When I pulled out, I had a box with around 30 saws of varying quality. I pulled out my existing collection, and ended up with this: http://homepage.mac.com/maclif/sawproblem.jpg It kind of piles up together, but that is five piles of saws with roughly 10 to a pile. Going through them, most with a decent pass of acid or electrozap and a sharpen would be pretty respectible users. $2 a pop, not bad. I have had a saw sharpening vise for a while, but all the necessary tools to sharpen and set saws followed me home, so I will probably be boning up on sharpening soon. I also had four woodie hollow and rounds follow me home. I really wanted to get another dozen or so, but couldn't justify the money. What I am really glad to bring home was a sweet Sheffield made brass backed dovetail saw. Also, a much-needed 71, a bull-nose rabbet plane, a skew-bladed iron Stanley plane (like a 190 with a skew blade, 1" wide), two braces, a breast drill, a good-sized eggbeater drill and more bits that I know what to do with. In a small lapse of judgement, I laid it all out neatly in the garage - rust completely covered one bay of the garage. When LOML came out, she was a bit surprised. The crazy part - after forking over a nice chunk of change and getting some stuff I've been trying to buy from him from sometime and loading up the back of my Forester, his shop area looked virtually the same. He offered me to sell everything he had for a couple thousand, but I really don't like the idea of sleeping outside for spending that kind of money unchecked. At first, I was planning on only keeping about 1/4 of the saws I bought Saturday. Now, I'm thinking of keeping a half or so. If I'm not careful, I'll convince I need every last one of them. (My family is having an auction next week, the ones that aren't keepers are going there.) -Clif in Dallas ===== I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set it free. -Michelangelo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 132917 ---- From: "Mike Guenther" Date: 2004-05-03 03:38:54 Subject: Re: Roy's latest Show -- Bookholder project and Spill Plane The Woodwright's Workbook by Roy Underhill has a short treatise on making a box joint "do-nothing". It shows and describes the method of making a pair of box joint pliers from one chunk of wood. The same principle applies to making the book stand. HTH's Mike G. in the wet and rainy foothills of S. Carolina ---- Start of Message 132918 ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-05-02 21:27:56 Subject: Need to learn how to hand plane twist out of a board I've got cup pretty well mastered now thanks to the galoots, going 45 across = the board from both directions helps knock it down fast, and I've a couple = decent users now. A No5 type 11 with no backlash and a No6c which adjusts up = pretty well too. In the past my favorite has been the No6,but I have to set it for a fairly fine = shaving as the wide blade is too tough to take thick shavings with. Now I've got the No5 set up the take a pretty thick shave, enough I get some = plane tracks, but I don't mind those when hogging off the material. So I need to figure out how to plane out twist. I've "made" a pair of winding = sticks from some BORG 1/2 square alum tubing. I can see one side is higher or = lower than the other. I can rock the board so I know one side is higher than = the other. So I start knocking off the high side, using short strokes as the = Starrett straight edge tells me I only have about 6" and then I need to move = inwards. Whats the gospel for taking out twist? I find myself spending 40 minutes = getting a 6" wide 30" long board kinda close, a slight rock. Now I wonder = where to find the rock? I notice I've planed one side .05 more than the = otherside getting rid of the rock, and no I have a trapazoidal board. Get out = the starrett again, set up a flashlight and I can see light at 2-3 places = across and as I move down the board the light moves position. Will my No6 follow the twist? What's the gospel for twist? Alan Epson Inkjet Printer FAQ: http://welcome.to/epson-inkjet ---- Start of Message 132919 ---- From: T&J Holloway Date: 2004-05-02 21:31:02 Subject: Re: Admitting it is the first step: saw problem On Sunday, May 2, 2004, at 07:49 PM, Clif Palmberg wrote: [snip] > When I pulled out, I had a box with around 30 saws of varying quality. > I pulled out my existing collection, and ended up with this: > http://homepage.mac.com/maclif/sawproblem.jpg [more snip] > In a small lapse of judgement, I laid it all out neatly in the garage > - rust > completely covered one bay of the garage. When LOML came out, she was > a bit > surprised. Not small, Clif. This is a major error. Whatever your problem is, you NEVER lay them out in a line, where SWMBO can see them, all at once. Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 132920 ---- From: "Bret Rochotte" Date: 2004-05-03 00:35:13 Subject: FS block plane Hello; I found a nice adjustable block plane a few weeks ago. Its a Great = Neck, similar to a Stanley 9 1/2. I flattened the sole, sharpened the = iron and it works great. Makes nice fluffy shavings and cuts end grain = on pine like butter and leaves a nice shiny surface. I've always shied = away from Great Neck, but this thing works pretty good. If you need a = cheap block plane or want to cut the sides off one to make a rabbet = block plane how can you go wrong for $15.00? SOT, pictures at link = below: http://mypeoplepc.com/members/cwanimal/toolpixs/id1.html Bret Bret and Wendy Rochotte=20 New Bremen, Ohio rochotte@b... ---- Start of Message 132921 ---- From: Scott Murman Date: 2004-05-02 21:46:46 Subject: thumbnail profile i've been looking for a thumbnail profile for making drawer fronts to no avail. i've thought about modifying one of my beaten-down side beads for the task. considering how common thumbnail drawer fronts are, why aren't thumbnail planes more plentiful? what have ye all done? -SM- RWC, CA i don't want to say it's warm, but i saw a stone melt while i was waiting at a stoplight. ---- Start of Message 132922 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-05-03 07:31:01 Subject: RE: Need to learn how to hand plane twist out of a board : -----Original Message----- : From: Alan Womack [mailto:arwbackup@w...] : Sent: 03 May 2004 05:28 : To: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] Need to learn how to hand plane twist out : of a board : : What's the gospel for twist? The good news is a relevation to be found on my web site, chapter 'Planing Notes', verse 'Coping With Twist'. An epiphany? If so, hallelujah! Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 132923 ---- From: "Carl Matthews" Date: 2004-05-03 03:59:34 Subject: RE: Admitting it is the first step: saw problem You can always say that you have fewer saws than she has shoes. Anyway it worked for me a couple of times. Best regards, .....Carl =20 > From: Clif Palmberg [mailto:myemailnameisthis@y...]=20 > I pulled out my existing collection, and ended up with this: > http://homepage.mac.com/maclif/sawproblem.jpg > In a small lapse of judgement, I laid it all out neatly in=20 > the garage - rust completely covered one bay of the garage.=20 > When LOML came out, she was a bit surprised.=20 > -Clif in Dallas ---- Start of Message 132924 ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-05-03 05:10:19 Subject: RE: Acid vs. electrozapping. Since the cleaner is a consumer product, I have to believe that the concentration of HF (hydroFLUORIC acid) is quite low.=20 Even so, HF is incredibly scary stuff -- HF burns cause EXTREME pain, destroy tissue deeply, and can even attack bone by migrating through your skin and tissue. You may come across higher concentrations in acid etchs for glass. In any event, if you end up using HF since there is no alternative, you must read the safety literature at: http://www.hfacid.com http://www.hfacid.com/literature.html The treatment guide is particularly useful. Even though I know a fair amount about HF dangers from my former life in metallurgy, I was surprised about HF's general nastiness. In particular, the treatment guide states that serious burns can results from *dilute* HF at 2% concentration with prolonged contact. Ken "In Slough, which isn't as bad as dilute HF" Meltsner ---- Start of Message 132925 ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-05-03 06:48:52 Subject: Re: Good weekend I continued my run of yard sale luck this weekend. Visited several sales and came home with a wonderful ceramic nativity set, $8. Didn't see one tool aside from the aluminum level 3 yrs. old and with 1 working vial. Ken Larry Marshall wrote: >I have a feeling that this weekend is going to be a good one. >Tommorrow it is rumored to be nice and sunny and the outdoor flea >market here opens up for the season. > >The weekend has started off better than most on the tool front. I >hit the two indoor flea markets like I do every weekend in spite of >the fact that there isn't much in the way of tools. But while >rifling through a small box of rusty auger bits, looking for a #11, >I came across a socketed mortise chisel. It was rusted up pretty >good but I asked the guy what he wanted for it. I paid $2CDN, >which is about 10 cents USD and took it home. There are no >markings on it but once cleaned up and with a handle added, I think >it'll make a fine user. I still have to sharpen it, though. >Here's a photo. > >http://www.woodnbits.com/mortise_chisel.jpg > > >-- >Cheers --- Larry Marshall >Quebec City, QC >http://www.woodnbits.com > >------------------------------------------------------- > > > ---- Start of Message 132926 ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-05-03 06:52:45 Subject: Re: Roy's latest Show -- Bookholder project and Spill Plane No it's not new. The Detroit PBS has been running it every third week for years, Ken Bob Nelson wrote: >Hi John & All, > >Is the bookholder show John talks about really a new one? I can't >remember the specifics of design in the detail John describes, but I >recall a show a couple years ago on which Roy made some kind of book >holder/stand. > >Best Wishes, >Bob > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > ---- Start of Message 132927 ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 2004-05-03 08:23:54 Subject: FS: Ten Years And Counting Yep, it's been 10 years, this month, since I first started selling tools over the Internet. What's that they say about a long strange trip? And every day it's something new. This month's list is pretty eclectic. Featuring a very special tool of the month, plus an assortment of goodies for all. Few re-runs but a lot of new as well. First contact (that is e-mail, phone or IM) that says I want it get's it. Oldtools terms, except on items over $100, if I don't know ya or haven't done business in the past (and my records good way back..) then it's pre-pay. I do take PayPal Please put your name and address in the message. Saves time and email traffic! I can also be reached on ICQ at 3797935 or Yahoo Messenger handle of skyefyre47. Or call my office, 570-669-9421 --------------------------------------------------- First Tony's Tool of the Month! More than a few years ago, two gentleman formed a company with the goal of producing top of the line tools. As has happened many times in the past, the partnership was short lived. One partner continued for a while until selling out to pursue other interests. What is for sale here is the product of that partnership. The Independence Tool Dovetail Saw. Serial Number 181. The saw that a lot of folks on this list used to say that they only way they would give it up " was out of my cold dead hands.." This for most of it's life has been in a tool chest of mine. There is a tiny scratch on the blade (delivered that way) and a tiny ding on the brass. This was used for single cuts maybe 5 times. Sure, these are still being made under a different name, and yes there are other folks out there making good dovetail saws. But this is the original and arguably the best. $225.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/itsaw.jpg Metal Planes Metal Spoke Shave. Marked No. 17, Made in USA. 8 3/4" long with a 1 3/4" blade. Don't know who made it. Decent shape, blade is good. Good kids shave! $15.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/spokeshave0501.jpg Stanley 80M Scraper. One of Stanley's malleable iron tools. For you guys who like to bounce stuff off of cement floors right? Later blue paint model, sole needs a quick cleaning. No blade. $15.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/stanley80m.jpg Sargent VBM 408 Smoothing Plane. Sargent's not quite as big as 4 but a little bigger than a 3 plane. 9" long x 2 1/8" wide. Blade is the correct one, 1 3/4" wide and 7 1/8" long. Early low knob model. Good shape. Japanning is good except for a little flaking at the toe, heel & mouth. Few very light dings along the front edge of the toe. Sole is good with some very light, I hate to say pitting, but it is very light. Iron is good also, some discolored spots where water ran down on it but again nothing major. Knob is good, tote is good 'cept for one teenie tiny chip. Only thing I did was to strip the finish off the tote, it was really gummed up with paint and flaking. Would be simple matter to take the wax off of it with some thinner and soak it in walnut varnish for a week like the original finish..(at least it seems that way!). Anyways, a good plane for the price. Price Reduced Was $55.00 now $45.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/april/sargent408.jpg Woodies Iohn Green 5/16 Inch Hollow. Cabinet Pitch. York England 1768-1808. Looks to be of the right about 1800 style. Nice shape, I doubt that this was used much at all, no mouth or iron wear. Odd size too. $35.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/wp0501.jpg Wooden Panel Marking Gauge. Beam is 21 1/4" long 1 1/4" wide and 1/2" thick. Head is 6" long, 1 1/8" thick, and 2 1/4" high. Only real flaw is a chip missing out of the front of the head. Copper locking screw holds good. Point is a sharpened nail, still got some life left. Not your run of the mill one of these for sure. $20.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/panelgauge0501.jpg Early Side or Half Round Plane. 1/2" wide blade at the widest spot. The name looks to be an owner's mark but the style says early 19th century English. Nicely made. Excellent shape. Very uncommon shape. $45.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/april/wp0404.jpg Wallace 1/2 Inch Snipe Bill. Thomas Wallace working in Dundee Scotland from 1818-1820. Was succeed by his sons who later on emigrated to Canada. This is by the style one of the father's planes. Very gorgeous piece of beech, nicely boxed, just a beautiful plane. $55.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/april/wp0405.jpg Chisels Pair of Buck Brothers Gouges to Restore. Big one is a 1 5/8", 6 5/8" from the edge to the top of the handle. Has a few big patches of pitting but there is some clear steel in there. Handle has a split off the end. Smaller one is a 7/8", 5 1/4" edge to the top of the handle. Metal on this one is good, just some dark spots, handle needs help. $20.00 for the pair. http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/chisel0501.jpg P. S. & W. (Pexto) 1 Inch Framing Chisel. Measures 11 1/4 from the edge to the socket end and 15 5/8" overall. Back has couple of light right spots but for the most part is clean. Sides have a few dings but they are down in the iron body. $25.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/chisel0502.jpg T.H. Witherby 1 Inch Framing Chisel. Measuring 11" from the edge to the socket end and 16" overall. Ain't the prettiest pea in the pod for sure. Back has a little bit of light roughness, nothing that won't work out as it is sharpened. Good heavy handle too. $30.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/chisel0503.jpg Buck Brothers 1 Inch Straight Sided Chisel. Measuring 7 3/8" from the edge to the socket end and 11 7/8" overall. Not bad shape, couple of small and lightly pitted spots on the back, but its about 95% clean. $10.00 takes it away. http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/chisel0504.jpg Keen Kutter 1/4 Inch Paring Chisel. Measuring 6 3/4" from the edge to the socket end and 9 3/4" overall. Little discoloration but the back is clean $15.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/april/chisel0405.jpg Unmarked 2 Inch Paring Chisel. Measuring 6 7/8" from the edge to the socket end and 11" overall. Nice shape except for a little spot of pitting right near the edge and about 1" of scuffing going back. Nothing that won't work out. From the shape this was either a Witherby or a Pexto. Good handle. $20.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/april/chisel0407.jpg Saws Quaker City Backsaw. 12" long, 11 TPI. Decent shape except for a couple of tiny pitted areas on the back by the teeth. Don't know nothing about the maker. $12.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/saw0501.jpg C.E. Jennings No. 10 Metal Cutting Saw. Blade is 18" long. Marked C.E. Jennings & Co, No Tradmark 10, {something} Cutting Saw and some other stuff that is a bit faint. 14 TPI. Not bad shape, tote is stained but otherwise good. Back has some pitting mostly up near the top. This t'ain't whatcha call a very common saw for sure. $30.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/april/saw0401.jpg Misc Unusual Hand Forged Divider Compass. 7 5/8" long. Used for marking curved surfaces. The big end extends a bit below the other point for doing outside work. Can also be used for inside work on curved surfaces as well. Good shape, joint is tight till you get out to 3 1/2" then it gets looser. Not something that you find every day. $35.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/dividers0502.jpg Blacksmith Duplicating Caliper. 14" long. Also useful for lathe work. Lots of patina on this guy. $25.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/dividers0501.jpg Neat Little Hand Forged Claw Hammer. Head measures 3 1/2" long. Face 1/2" square. Nice early handle too. $25.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/hammer0501.jpg Hand Vice 5 3/4" long with 1 3/4" jaws. Good shape. Jaws are good as is the cross hatching on the faces. German make, Hahn & Kolb looks like. Nice heavy one of these. $30.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/handvice0501.jpg Set 7 Smaller C Clamps. First is a Cincinnati Tool, opens to 1 7/8", next 4 are Cincinnati Tool that open to 1 1/2". Last 2 are just marked Malleable Iron and open to 1 1/4". More clamps than you could shake a Karl at. $ 18.00 get's them all. http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/clamps0501.jpg Tinsmiths Stove Pipe Shears. 13 1/4" long, with 2" jaws. Not signed. Patina'd but otherwise good. $25.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/tintool0501.jpg Perfect Handle 4 Inch Screw Driver. Made by H. Boker Germany. $12.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/pfsd0501.jpg Pair of Stanley Brace Tools. Screwdriver tip with 3/8" blade. Somebody did a recess job on the tip for thinner screws. Countersink with a 3/4" diameter head. $10.00 for the pair http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/bt0501.jpg Tapered Reamer for a brace. 4 1/2" long, tapers to 1 1/2". Good shape, edges feel sharp The perfect weapon of mess destruction for cleaning up those mushroom'ed chisel ends. $15.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/may/bt0502.jpg General 810 Plane & Chisel Blade Sharpener. Works pretty much like the Stanley one, will take up to a 2 5/8" blade. Good shape, box is a little ratty. $20.00 http://oldetoolshop.com/forsale/mar/sharpener.jpg --------------------------------------------------------------- He came, he saw..he Karl'd! Tony Olde River Hard Goods 350 West Catawissa Street Nesquehoning PA 18240 570-669-9421 The best old tool store in Pennsylvania! http://www.oldetoolshop.com ---- Start of Message 132928 ---- From: garyg@g... Date: 2004-05-03 09:15:04 Subject: Re: Saw Handles Website Alan Perreault wrote: > I stumbled on this website, and thought some on the Porch may find this of > interest. Scroll down till you see the photos of the saw handles, and double > click them. Anyone looking for handle patterns (Steve) would find lots of > interest: > http://members.brandx.net/websites/bbrode/woodwork/tools_gallery/handles I backed all the way up to his homepage; it's a keeper Nice find. Happy shavings, Gary ---- Start of Message 132929 ---- From: tad@o... Date: 2004-05-03 09:25:02 Subject: Re: Saw Handles Website >> http://members.brandx.net/websites/bbrode/woodwork/tools_gallery/handles > > I backed all the way up to his homepage; it's a keeper > Nice find. > > Happy shavings, > Gary What was even better was when Bob used to sell some of the saws... ---- Start of Message 132930 ---- From: Joshua Clark Date: 2004-05-03 09:26:36 Subject: Tools For Sale: May 2004 Good Morning Galoots, A few nice pieces and a few odds and ends to sell this month. Hopefully you'll find something you like. All tools sold SOT terms. If you don't have a bio on file please email me and we'll work something out. I can accept PayPal, checks and money orders. For sale list for May 2004. Chisels & Gouges- Lots of random chisels & gouges for sale this month. All in usable condition. I'm willing to deal if you want several of them. Chisel1- 1/8 inch Buck Brothers Cast Steel tang-type chisel. Interesting in that the blade is diamond-shaped. Handle looks like hickory and is in great shape. $12.00 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/chisel1a.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/chisel1b.jpg Chisel2- 1/8 inch Sargent VBM tang-type chisel. Hickory handle, leather washers at the striking end. Ground on a slight skew so it would be perfect for half-blind dovetails, or easily reground to a standard edge configuration. Very good Condition. $12.00 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/chisel2a.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/chisel2b.jpg CHISELS 3-7 Too many to photograph individually, I'll describe them from left to right. http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/chisels1.jpg A- Buck Brothers 1/8 inch bevel-edge chisel, long fine blade, good handle $12 B- New Haven Edge tool co. 1/4 inch square-sided. Apple handle, bright blade $12 C- Douglas MFG Co. 1/2 inch square-sided socket chisel. Nice apple handle $14 D- Douglas & Bottum 7/8 inch square-sided socket chisel good condition $12 E- Douglas MFG Co. 1 1/4 inch square-sided socket chisel. Handle is in bad shape $10 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/chisels1.jpg Gouge1- Not quite sure what this is, looks like a graver to me. Marked "Kerr & Liberty 3/32. blade is slightly curver and cuts a "U" channel. Interesting. $10 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/gouge1a.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/gouge1b.jpg Gouge2- (left) Buck Brothers 1 1/4 inch incannel tang-type gouge. A fine gouge measuring 15 inches overall. The handle looks like hickory and has leather washers on the striking end. The handle is dry, but in overall good condition. Long incannel gouges like this aren't very common and are quite useful. $20.00 (both 2 & 3 for $35) http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/gouges1a.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/gouges1b.jpg Gouge3- (right) Buck Brothers 1 1/2 inch incannel tand-type gouge. A fine gouge measuring 17 inches overall. The handle looks like hickory and has leather washers on the striking end. The handle is dry, but in overall good condition. Long incannel gouges like this aren't very common and are quite useful. $20.00 (both 2 & 3 for $35) http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/gouges1a.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/gouges1b.jpg Gouge4 (left) Buck Brothers crank-neck pattern maker's gouge. 3/4 inch middle-sweep. Not at all common, handle is in good condition with some loss of finish. $25.00 (4 and 5 for $45) http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/gouges2a.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/gouges2b.jpg Gouge5 (right) Buck Brothers crank-neck pattern maker's gouge. 9/16 inch regular-sweep. Not at all common, handle is in good condition, but has some dings. $25.00 (4 and 5 for $45) http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/gouges2a.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/gouges2b.jpg GOUGES- Lots of random gouges, all in usable condition. From left to right: http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/gouges1.jpg A- Can't make out the maker's mark, 1/2 inch gouge, nice handle $10 B- Douglas MFG Co. 1/2 inch gouge, perfect apple handle $12 C- Buck Brothers 1/2 gouge with a very deep "U" profile. Apple handle has a very tight split, but otherwise fine $14 D- Butcher 5/8 inch gouge, blade is fine, handle is dead mint. leather washers have never been struck and cap is marked "Pat Appld For". $15 E- Early Buck Brothers 1/2 inch gouge. Apple handle has a few dings but otherwise good. $12 F- Douglas MFG Co. 3/4 inch shallow sweep gouge. A mate to "B" above, handle has two small tight cracks, but is perfectly usable. $12 G- Butcher 1 inch gouge, blade is fine, handle is beech and has some tight splits. Could be rehabbed or replaced. $10 H- Buck Brothers 1/2 inch flat carving chisel. Uncommon profile. Nice handle, fine condition overall. $15 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/gouges1.jpg GROVES GOUGES- A collection of five Groves & Sons gouges. Matched hickory handles. Regular sweep in the following sizes: 1/4, 5/16, 3/8, 7/16, 1/2. $65.00 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/groves_gouges1.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/groves_gouges2.jpg Drills / Braces / Bits DRILL2- Early Millers Falls eggbeater type hand drill. Needs a cleaning but operates smoothly. Hollow handle to store bits, and a side handle. Three-jaw chuck marked Millers Falls $12.00 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/drill2a.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/drill2b.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/drill2c.jpg BRACE1: Stanley "SweetHeart" #919 10" brace. 50% of the nickel plating remains, interlocking jaws and ratchet action both work well. Beautiful rosewood pad and handle are in nice shape. Good user brace- $15.00 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/brace1a.JPG http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/brace1b.JPG http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/brace1c.JPG BRACE2- Millers Falls #422 10-inch brace. Manufactured between 1912-1944, hardwood handles, almost 100% nickel plating remaining, ratchet mechanism works well. $14.00 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/brace2a.JPG http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/brace2b.JPG http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/brace2c.JPG BRACE6- Stanley #921 10inch brace. Four patent dates on the chuck, rosewood pad and handle. The pad does have a small piece missing from the underside, but it would still be a fine brace to use. $10.00 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/brace6a.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/brace6b.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/brace6c.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/brace6d.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/brace6e.jpg PLANES PLANE1- Stanley type 8 (1899-1902) #7 22 inch jointer plane. I used this plane regularly for the past two years until recently upgrading. The plane does have two small chips missing from the right side of the casting. If you're a righty you won't realize it. A fine user plane perfect for a beginning Galoot. The rosewood handles are in great shape and the sole is flat. The blade is sharp and the plane will be delivered in ready-to-use condition. $30 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/plane1a.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/plane1b.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/plane1c.jpg PLANE2- a 14-inch wooden jack plane marked J PEARCE NEW YORK #109. Pearce sold planes made by the Chapin-Stevens company in the late-1800's. The plane is in very good condition. The body is beech and has no chips or cracks. The tote is intact and tight. The tapered blade is nearly 3/16 thick at the business end and has over 2 inches of life left. The sole of the plane is flat and the mouth is in good shape. There is a metal strike button at the toe. This would make a fine user jack plane. $20.00 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/plane3a.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/plane3b.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/plane3c.jpg PLANE6- Stanley #3 small smooth plane. Pretty much dead-mint condition. No rust or discoloration on the body, lever cap is bright and has full nickel plating. The knob and tote are rosewood and in perfect condition. Blade is full length, and the sole is perfect. I think this is a type 19 (1948-1961). Pictures speak for themselves. $50 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/plane6a.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/plane6b.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/plane6c.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/plane6d.jpg SAWS SAW1: Disston & Sons 8 inch Dovetail saw ca. 1890-1928. A very nice saw in a less-common 8 inch size. I cleaned it up a bit to reveal a bright blade and nearly perfect apple handle. The blade is 12TPI and dead straight. The steel spine is stamped "Henry Disston & Sons Cast Steel Warranted". The handle is very nice with just a tiny chip out of the top horn as seen in the second picture. This wound probably occurred early in its life as the patina is even throughout the entire handle. The bottom horn is perfect, I just managed to miss it in the photos below.. The blade has some tiny pin-points of pitting as seen in the third picture. The pitting is very light and scattered enough not to affect use. $40 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/saw1a.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/saw1b.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/saw1c.jpg SAW7: "Bay State" 24 inch panel saw. A second line of Simonds, this model has a straight back and 7TPI crosscut. The blade has a dark patina but no rust or pitting. The handle is made of beech and is in really nice shape. Nice clear etch that will pop if the blade is cleaned. $12.00 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/saw7a.JPG http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/saw7b.JPG MISCELLANEOUS Good Stuff Square: 12" adjustable square marked: Union Tool Co. Orange Mass, USA." Very nice condition- blade has no rust and clear markings. Head moves freely and locks securely. $10.00 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/square1.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/square2.jpg MISC1: Craftsman version of the Yankee #30 ratcheting screwdriver. Operates smoothly, comes with one bit. Very useful tool $8.00 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/driver1.jpg MISC2- Very Early Goodell Brothers Automatic screwdriver. Can be used in automatic mode or as a standard screwdriver. Marked "Goodell Bro's Greenfield Mass." Pat'd July 22 1890, Nov 17 1891". some loss of nickel plating near the handle, and the handle is in fair condition. Interesting early tool $20.00 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/driver2a.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/driver2b.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/driver2c.jpg http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/driver2d.jpg MISC3- A pair of "Perfect Handle" screwdrivers. Both unmarked, handles are in god condition, good users. $8.00 http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/driver3.jpg That's it! Thanks for looking! -Josh in CT- ---- Start of Message 132931 ---- From: Steve Denvir Date: 2004-05-03 09:39:37 Subject: FS: Books and more books The books are starting to pile up, to the point where they=B9re fighting for space with the tools. So something has to go. Standard Old Tools terms. Unless otherwise described, all books are in fine condition. And just to save everyone from having to race off to Amazon to make sure they=B9re gettin= g a deal, all prices are 50% off the cover price. WARNING: Some p*w*r tool content. 1. The Stanley Rule and Level Company=B9s Combination Planes. Astragal Press, softcover. $5.00 2. The Illustrated Book of Housebuilding and Carpentry. Graham Blackburn. Softcover. $9.50 3. Collecting Antique Tools. Kean and Pollak. Softcover. $15.00 4. Built-in Furniture. Tolpin. Hardbound. $17.50 5. Mastering Hand Tool Techniques. Alan and Gill Bridgewater. Hardbound. $14.00 6. The Woodworkers Visual Handbook. Jon Arno. Hardbound. $15.00 7. The Home Workshop Planner. Wood Magazine. Softcover. $7.50 8. Building Cabinet Doors and Drawers. Danny Proulx. Softcover.$11.00 9. Setting Up Your Own Woodworking Shop. Bill Stankus. Sortcover. $7.50 10. Working With Wood. The Basics of Craftsmanship. Peter Korn. Softcover. $13.00 11. The Nature of Woodworking. The Quiet Pleasures of Crafting by Hand. Rodney Frost. Softcover. $9.00 12. Restoring Antique Tools. Herbert Kean. Softcover. $9.00 13. Hand Tools. Their Ways and Workings. Aldren Watson. Softcover. $11.00 14. Tools. A Guide for Collectors. Jane and Mark Rees. 2nd Edition. Softcover. $15.00 15. The New Yankee Workshop. Norm Abram. Softcover. $10.00 16. Box-Making Basics. Design, Technique, Projects. David Freedman. Softcover. $10.00 17. Hand Tools for Woodworkers. Robert Wearing. Softcover. $7.50 18. The Complete Guide to Wood Finishes. Derrick Crump. Softcover. $9.00 19. Mission Furniture You Can Build. John D, Wagner. Softcover. $10.00 20. Step-by-Step to a Classic Fireplace Mantel. Steve Penberthy. Softcover= . $7.00 21. Stanley Combination Planes. The 45, the 50, the 55. Lee Valley Reprint= . Softcover. $2.50 22. Fine Tool Journal(x4). Volume 49, Nos 3 and 4. Volume 50, Nos 1 and 3. G+ $10.00 ---- Start of Message 132932 ---- From: Rex Wilson Date: 2004-05-03 08:55:23 Subject: RE: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought > > Wood is a very hard exotic with purplish stripes. > >American white wood is often tulip poplar or poplar. It's a very >straight growing tree very similiar to birch in appearance. In fact you >could call it the poor man's birch tree. But the similiarities end at >appearance as it is much softer wood and the wood often has a slightly >green haze to it. It has become popular because it is very hardy and >even in the coldest of areas it grows fast like a weed. > > Hummm- OH yeah, When my grand-GIT(s) are in the car and we are aimlessly touring the small towns in the frozen north USA. I garner a groan by asking them; "What kind of trees are those that seem to be everywhere and in everyone's fence row?" The expected and often given response; "Bapa, we don't know what the trees are called,.. what are they?" To which I gleefully respond; "Hummm,.. not too sure, but what ever they are, they sure seem Poplar in this area of the woods." Groans all around and much rolling of young eyes makes Bapa's trip enjoyable only to me ;-) Thanks for the connections on all of the common names. So "American White wood" is "Tulip wood" is "Poplar"? If I have all the list information correct. I use this purple, brown, green and white wood as secondary wood in most of my dresser webbing and find it to be stable, tool friendly and ugly. By the way, in my turn of the century woodworking books, the British writers refer to a wood which they call American Deal (red and white). Any heads up on this common name? Would "American Deal" be a good wood for the battleship glide test? Not really trying to make a long thread longer, just curious - Rex ---- Start of Message 132933 ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-05-03 06:55:00 Subject: re: Need to learn how to hand plane twist out of a board >> What's the gospel for twist? >> The good news is a relevation to be found on my web site, chapter >> 'Planing Notes', verse 'Coping With Twist'. This helps a small amount, but leaves me with a few questions yet: How does one decide which face to work over first? Are you looking for a = convex face first and scrubing down the board from there? If yes then you shim the opposite face so they board does not rock or to = compress while you scrub diagonally on the board? Perhaps tonight I can take a few photos and make up a site to further explain = the concepts. Alan Epson Inkjet Printer FAQ: http://welcome.to/epson-inkjet ---- Start of Message 132934 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-05-03 10:19:22 Subject: RE: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought Hi Rex & All, Besides the "American Deal" lumber that Rex mentioned from old UK books, I've also seen mentions of their getting Deal from Scandanavian countries. I have a pretty distinct impression that both deals are conifer type softwoods like pine. Don't recall seeing a red vs. white distinction, but maybe something like cedar or such too? Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 132935 ---- From: Rex Wilson Date: 2004-05-03 09:58:45 Subject: RE: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought >. Don't recall seeing a red vs. white distinction, but maybe something > like cedar or such too? > >Best Wishes, Bob > Yep, kind of what I was thinking. Thanks Bob. The red and white ref. was in an old text book I should have purchased from one of the local antique dealers. Mechanical Bench Work c. 1901 or some such old speak. I may just migrate back there and see if the collected volumes are still gathering dust on the shelves;-) Speculate that the "Deal" might be white cedar and red cedar, but the context of my read indicated that the wood was a secondary one to be used for mockup and hidden furniture parts. Red cedar might not fit this bill - what say? -Rex ---- Start of Message 132936 ---- From: "Andy Seaman" Date: 2004-05-03 14:43:07 Subject: re: Admitting it is the first step: saw problem Clif, My suggestion would be to browse the website of fellow Galoot Tom Price; specifically the section entitled "Some observations on the Galoot life:". This is a guy who wrote the 10-step recovery program on saw problems and his website will answer all of your questions. ;) Check it out here: http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/saw_problem.html Enjoy! -Andy ---- Start of Message 132937 ---- From: Gregory Isola Date: 2004-05-03 08:10:38 Subject: Re: thumbnail profile Scott wishes he were all thumbs... considering how common thumbnail drawer fronts are, why aren't thumbnail planes more plentiful? ************************** I've wondered the same thing. I have one thumbnail, a 3/4", which is too big for most drawer fronts. On the few occasions I've tackled something like this, I've had some success with the method Dunbar has described more than once in FWW: stick a shallow rabbet around the edge of the board for the step, and then just round over the edge with a block plane. A small hollow works even better. The method is fine, but, ahem, it doesn't require a new tool. Sorry. Greg Isola Alameda, CA ---- Start of Message 132938 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-05-03 11:33:17 Subject: RE: need a little help Hello, I went to tools for working wood to inquire about my Shapton stone problem. The proprietor, Joel was kinda rude and would only shrug his shoulders and say "I don't know what to tell you". I was hoping he would be a little more helpful, but in all due fairness the Norton people were there and it was a bad time to talk Shapton's...although I was a little shocked by his indifference to my problem. I did buy the Norton 220, 1,000, 4,000 and 8,000 grit waterstones somewhat begrudgingly. Time was short this weekend, but I did get to use my new Norton stones. They are completely different than the Shaptons. The 220 grit stone cuts fast but also wears extremely fast. The 1,000 grit stone is also fast cutting and wears only slightly less. You have to be VERY careful to use the entire stone to get even wear. There are many other alternatives that work as well ie. sandpaper, diamond lapping plate and drywall screens, and none of these have to be lapped flat. I do like these stones, and now that I have them, they will get used. The Norton 4,000 and 8,000 are also softer and cut much faster than the Shaptons. They also wear faster and IMHO don't leave the edge as sharp. Overall I think the Norton's are more of a cutting stone than a polishing stone. Don't get me wrong, this is also desirable as there are times when I want a cutting stone. I would have to say that for all you scary sharper's, it would be hard to justify the expense, as the results are not superior. I washed my Shapton's with dish soap, soaking for an hour, and then packed them in saw dust. They worked good at first, but then bogged down again. I'm afraid the oil is in too deep. Overall, the frustrating thing with the Shapton 1,000 grit stone is that it doesn't cut very fast (fast enough). The 5,000 and 8,000 are very dense and at this point I dont't need alot of cutting when sharpening. It may take a little longer, but the polishing action of these stones leaves a mirror finish and superior sharp edge. The Shaptons excell at this grit level, and I highly recommend the 5,000 and 8,000 grit stones for polishing and honing. In summary, I think I'll be using a combination of all these different stones and methods for different applications. When I want a cutting action for establishing a new bevel angle or flattening the back on an old plane blade or chisel, I'll use drywall screens, sandpaper, diamond lapping plate or the Norton 1,000 grit stone. Not all of the above, but some combination thereof as seems fit for the occasion. For polishing and honing, I still like the Shapton 5,000 and 8,000 grit stones and will have to replace them. Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 132939 ---- From: Scott Murman Date: 2004-05-03 08:40:29 Subject: Re: thumbnail profile > On the few occasions I've tackled something like > this, I've had some success with the method Dunbar has described more > than > once in FWW: stick a shallow rabbet around the edge of the board for > the > step, and then just round over the edge with a block plane. that's what i'm doing now, and it pretty much works, but the quality would certainly be better with a dedicated plane. it's also pretty slow, not that this matters a whole lot these days. Tod Herrli has some thumbnail planes for sale (3/8" and 1/4"). http://www.comteck.com/~therrli/planes.htm -SM- RWC, CA ---- Start of Message 132940 ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 2004-05-03 11:35:17 Subject: re: Admitting it is the first step: saw problem It is highly improper, and damned phoney, for a guy to write a 10-step recovery program when he hasn't taken the first step himself. Beware, he is the Grand High Poobah of the Support Group from Hell, and anything he says should be analyzed for detection of new ways of getting tools transferred from you to him. You'd be better off with Opera and Dr. Phil than Dr. D8 for saw therapy. No, no, Tommy the Sawnut hasn't done any admitting of anything but liking saws. Trust me on this. Regards, The Guy Who Routinely Gets Shoved Aside by the Monkey on his Back -----Original Message----- From: Andy Seaman Subject: re:[oldtools] Admitting it is the first step: saw problem Clif, My suggestion would be to browse the website of fellow Galoot Tom Price; specifically the section entitled "Some observations on the Galoot life:". This is a guy who wrote the 10-step recovery program on saw problems and his website will answer all of your questions. ;) ---- Start of Message 132941 ---- From: Ted Shuck Date: 2004-05-03 10:43:52 Subject: RE: Admitting it is the first step: saw problem My name is Ted and I have a saw problem: My saw till is FULL, I even have saws in the between slots and shorter saws set behind the full-length handsaws. I had resolved to clean up and sharpen the last two acquisitions this weekend. On Saturday, I cleaned and sharpened my Atkins 65 9pt crosscut and raised a nice, but faint etch. Then I did the same to my Richardson 7pt rip, and found it was made expressly for a hardware store in Pennsylvania. This was so much fun, I just couldn't stop there! So, Sunday I bought a Disston thumbhole D-8 6pt rip saw. Bright blade with some light pitting, but for $11, I couldn't pass it up. It has a very light blond apple handle in the older style with smooth curves. I have never seen one with so light a color. I also picked up a Moulson 12" open-handle backsaw in good condition. This one came surprisingly sharp. It has a little wooden sheath to protect the blade, so it was not much trouble to clean it up. The handle looks too small for this saw, but I found it very nice to use. Now I have to reshuffle to fit these in, or maybe move out a couple of the less usable saws. I've been lobbying to take over the spare bedroom in the basement, but I don't think that's going to happen any time soon. At least it seems to give me a little more bargaining room with other aspects of my obses^^^^^ hobby. Ted, who never met a backsaw he didn't like. ---- Start of Message 132942 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-05-03 08:52:15 Subject: FS: books mainly Hi, This is my first FS attempt here so please be gentle. Old tool terms of course. Books Principles of Woodworking by Herman Hjorth 1930 HC Former High School library book. Inside in very good condition. Cover is worn around the edges and binding is breaking loose a little. $5 Encyc. of Furniture Making by Ernest Joyce SC Very good condition overall. Spine is creased from being opened and used. Cover has minor dings. $10 Traditional Woodworking Handtools by Graham Blackburn SC Like new, tiny dings on cover $10 Millwork, Power Tools, Painting Audel's Carpenter's and Builder's Library HC 1978 Excellent condition $3 Tool Sad Fulton combo plane (Sargent 1080) Type that predates the Stanley 45 look. Complete (I think) except for short rods. But has rust issues. All parts move freely except the knicker on the main skate which is frozen and has a mangled screw slot. Some of the unplated parts have serious pitting as do the rods. The knicker that is free is rusted badly but the screw looks okay. The skates and fence range from marginal to pretty good. Tote fits tight but has top horn broken off and missing. (I removed the tote in preparation for restoration. I can put it back on or leave it off as you desire.) Has a complete (I think) set of cutters in the canvas roll. Cutters are in good condition. $40 First come - first serve Thanks! Blake ---- Start of Message 132943 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-05-03 08:57:57 Subject: saw whet owl Hi All, I thought of you yesterday when I was looking through a bird book with my son and came upon the Saw Whet Owl. So named because its call purportedly sounds like a saw being sharpened. I wonder how many modern birdwatchers have actually heard a saw being sharpened? Blake ---- Start of Message 132944 ---- From: cpmueller@c... Date: 2004-05-03 18:31:27 Subject: The Bench is Operational Galoots, It's been over a year since I started the bench project. I started it soon after joining OT. Since then I've learned alot. I found so much more rust than I thought I would. My wife is amazed too. She remembers that night at Applebee's or whatever it is that I had to rescue a beech jointer crucified to the wall. So, below is a link to the pictures of the bench during its construction. It is not complete but it is functional. What do you all think? Best Regards, Pete Mueller GPP, Michigan P.S. I used the galoot logo and pointed to some folks webpages on my site. What's the proper ettiquette for that? If anyone is offended, please ping me off list and I will take care of any offense. ---- Start of Message 132945 ---- From: Chris Freemesser Date: 2004-05-03 14:34:49 Subject: Re: Good weekend >I have a feeling that this weekend is going to be a good one. >Tommorrow it is rumored to be nice and sunny and the outdoor flea >market here opens up for the season. This past weekend was the first one this year warm enough for people to have garage sales. Western NY has it faults, but a lack of old tools at garage sales isn't one of them.....I'd have to say that 1 out of every 3 you stop at will have something. In any case, we only had about an hour to hit garage sales in our neighborhood before heading off to a previous scheduled appointment. We stopped at one or two (neither of which had anything), then saw an estate sale sign. We followed the sign down to a neighborhood where my great aunt and uncle lived (the uncle died last autumn), and my wife joked that maybe it would be at Aunt Ida's house (which I had not been to in nearly 20 years). Got there, looked around, and discovered that it *was* my great aunt & uncle's house. I managed to score a funky reel-type trimmer lawnmower/lawn edger from perhaps the 1920s or 30s for $5, and my wife scored an old pair of wire rim glasses that, according to my mother, probably belonged to my great grandmother. The last garage sale we hit was at a church, and I scored a fairly large Pexto screwdriver for $5. I guess it's what you more knowledgeable guys call a "perfect handle" screwdriver...the metal runs from the tip of the screwdriver to a large head at the other end, and there are two pieces of wood riveted to the T-shaped body to form the handle. It's in pretty good shape actually, but probably not a gloat. -- ---- Start of Message 132946 ---- From: "Murray Roblin" Date: 2004-05-03 12:13:00 Subject: RE: Acid vs. electrozapping. > > > > snippage: > > < > acid as the active ingredients.>> Why not bag that witch's brew and use a low concentration of phosphoric acid, sold as metal etch or metal prep - it does a good job of converting the rust and is much safer to handle. Murray ---- Start of Message 132947 ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-05-03 19:26:25 Subject: re: The Bench is Operational The obvious is that I don't see any link, but that's not important. What is important is how you went about rescueing the crucified plane. I didn't think those places would part with their decor, at least not at any reasonable true galoot price. ---- Start of Message 132948 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-05-03 15:33:05 Subject: Devolution Hello, Swmbo says that I have started grunting when I spot any oldtools at the local yardsale. Funny, I don't even realize that I'm doing it. But then just last week, this fellow took my picture while I was looking through some boxes of rust. http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=533 Strange, I don't feel any different Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 132949 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-03 12:39:05 Subject: Re: Acid vs. electrozapping. Because of the speed with which it removes rust. I ain't got all day!!! :>) On Monday, May 3, 2004, at 12:13 PM, Murray Roblin wrote: > >>> >>> snippage: >>> <>> acid as the active ingredients.>> > > > Why not bag that witch's brew and use a low concentration of phosphoric > acid, sold as metal etch or metal prep - it does a good job of > converting the rust and is much safer to handle. ---- Start of Message 132950 ---- From: Jim Wallbridge Date: 2004-05-03 13:17:54 Subject: Re: American White Wood was The Gorman-Grandstaff On Sunday, May 2, 2004, at 10:16 AM, John Sawchak wrote in part: > American white wood is often tulip poplar or poplar.... It > has become popular because it is very hardy and even in the coldest of > areas it grows fast like a weed.... John must have a very different meaning of "very hardy" and "coldest" than than many as it only native in the eastern US and the extreme southern parts of Ontario according to my references. I assume it will also grow in most other parts of the US, other than perhaps the plains, south of about 40N. I would expect that a very hard species would grow in the coldest parts of NA such as central Alaska. jim (James ME Wallbridge P. Eng (retired).) Libertarian, Metallurgist, Wood & Metal Worker, Fly Fisher, Resident of Calgary, Canada's new head office location of choice. Permission is hereby given to use any or all information herein, as an attributed quote, unless the body of the message states otherwise. ---- Start of Message 132951 ---- From: "Andy Seaman" Date: 2004-05-03 19:26:26 Subject: RE: Acid vs. electrozapping. snippage: Murray, Where do you get this metal etch? I've used lab grade phosphoric, diluted of course, and had good results. I was actually thinking of submerging some rust in Coca-cola since it contains low concentrations of phosphoric. Somebody mentioned acid disposal earlier. My suggestion would be to dilute the acid with water and then neutralize it with sodium bicarb (baking soda) until it stops bubbling. The key here is to dilute with *lots* of water to avoid a violent reaction. When the mixture is neutral (i.e. pH=7 and no more bubbling when you add baking soda) you can dump it down the drain. Ken mentioned that HF causes painful burns and destroys bones. Trust me, this is not the major concern. HF has an active fluoride ion that binds calcium (hence the destroyed bones). While this sounds unpleasant, it's almost certain that an exposure level high enough to damage bones will lead to severe hypocalcemia first, causing one's heart to stop beating. The moral of the story is that I'm sure Jim's wheel cleaner contains *very* little or no HF! -Andy ---- Start of Message 132952 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-03 12:49:30 Subject: Turned a bud vase I have been itching to turn a bud vase ever since I received the one done by Richard Wilson. Today SWMBO is on jury duty and I found a suitable piece of Apricot wood in my future somethings pile, and so I says to myself, I says, "Self, you need to get out to the shop and turn a bud vase!" And sure enough, about 2 hours later I had me a bud vase that SWMBO is gonna be proud of. I couldn't make myself turn down a piece of wood that big to use for a tool handle, but it wasn't big enough to cut in half long ways and still have anything useful. A bud vase seemed like the perfect use for this piece of wood. I found four more pieces about this size in the pile. They may also become bud vases. Time will tell. I took a picture of it along with the vase of Richard's, which served for inspiration. Take a look, it is the first picture on the page. http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/PhotoAlbum55.html Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 132953 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-03 12:55:04 Subject: Re: Acid vs. electrozapping. On Monday, May 3, 2004, at 12:26 PM, Andy Seaman wrote: > > Murray, > > Where do you get this metal etch? I've used lab grade phosphoric, > diluted of course, and had good results. I was actually thinking of > submerging some rust in Coca-cola since it contains low concentrations > of phosphoric. > galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > I buy Behr Concrete Etch from the borg. About $12 a gallon. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 132954 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-05-03 16:06:16 Subject: Re: Devolution > it. But then just last week, this fellow took my picture while I > was looking through some boxes of rust. Hey, you look just like me...when I was in better shape. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132955 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-05-03 16:15:05 Subject: Re: American White Wood was The Gorman-Grandstaff On Monday 03 May 2004 03:17 pm, you wrote: > On Sunday, May 2, 2004, at 10:16 AM, John Sawchak wrote in part: > > American white wood is often tulip poplar or poplar.... It > > has become popular because it is very hardy and even in the > > coldest of areas it grows fast like a weed.... It is a heap-big error to suggest that tulip poplar and poplar are the same thing. In fact, tulip poplar isn't a poplar at all. It's part of the magnolia family and its scientific name is Liriodendron tulipifera Poplar, on the other hand refers to a bunch of different trees in the genus Populus. The term "American white wood" is a fairly loose term from what I can tell but most often it refers to basswood, not poplar. Again, a completely different genus (Tilia). -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ------------------------------------------------------- -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132956 ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-05-03 16:20:59 Subject: Please Help ID This Stanley Logo Yesterday at the flea market a friend and fellow tool trader gave me an old Stanley 101 plane. Upon cleaning it the blade showed a trade mark I have never seen before. While it looks somewhat like the J trade mark it is not exact. I posted a pic on my website and would appreciate any info. http://members.cox.net/wcrittner/100logo.jpg Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ---- Start of Message 132957 ---- From: "Bill Ghio" Date: 2004-05-03 16:23:50 Subject: FS - May Old tools terms to anybody whose name I recognize. I don’t have a website so if you need a pic to decide, send me a note and I’ll take one for you. Payment by check or PayPal. E-mails to bghio@d... NEW STUFF - FIRST TIME OFFERED STILLSON PIPE WRENCH Small size - as in only six inches top to tip of the handle. This wrench has two things going for it: One, it is mega cute. Two, it is in very good condition. There is some discoloration on the metal and tool box dings on the wood handle, but the paint is all there on the handle and the metal is mostly bright. This wrench was used, at best, a couple of times and then put away. $10 SCRUB PLANE Horn handled European style scrub plane, only has an owner's mark. This plane was originally a round bottom, as they were made back in the day, but the bottom had significant wear and a split starting, so I planed it down to smooth wood although the sides still curve. I have pics if that will help. This was my user for over five years till I found a better one in the same style. $25 *********************************** LEFTOVERS FROM PRIOR LISTS: BRACES, BITS AND ACCOUTREMENTS Stanley #921 8-inch brace. This brace has the concealed ratchet and is similar to the Yankee. These 8-inch braces are the cats meow when it comes to driving screws, so if you need a screwdriver bit, just ask and I'll throw one in. Good Rosewood. Came out of a collection and has been cleaned assiduously. The pad is a bit wobbly, but the bearings all seem to be there. $20* John S. Frey #122, 12-inch brace. This is the brace you need to drive that 3/4 inch bit thru your maple bench top. Nice Rosewood, but the pad looks dry. Cleaned as brace above. $10* *$25 for both braces. MORTISE CHISEL Nice heavy 1/4” pigsticker. 12” overall and 6” ahead of the bolster. Replaced handle. Don’t know who made it, all I make out is “…storm…” but the “She…” below the name must denote Sheffield. $24 PLANES – WOOD & METALLIC Ohio Tool Co. #87 1/4-inch side bead. This is a great plane w/ good tight boxing and a full length, sharp blade. The plane is ready to use, however, there are three flaws. A tight 3/4 inch check in the end grain at the toe, a hang hole and a large “H”owner’s mark. $22 Put it w/ the 1/8-inch side bead below and take both for $40. 1/8 inch side bead - Auburn Tool Co. #105. Boxing is all there and tight. $22 Stanley #220. Just your basic block plane. This one is un-cleaned and has some surface rust, but has barely seen use. $8 Stanley #102 needs cleaning. Great for GIT kit. $10 Stanley Handyman version of the 102, but in lo-angle configuration. A much better plane than the 102 with it’s a lo-angle blade. This one is nice and clean. $14 Stanley #5 1/4 Junior Jack. A good example of this sweet little model. This one is probably post war as it has the thick varnish on the handle. Japanning is 98+%. $55 MARKING AND MEASURING Bevel gauge. Stanley #25 6-inch in near new condition. Still has the bluing on the blade. $10 Bevel gauge. Stanley #25 8-inch in near new condition. Still has the bluing on the blade. $10 Scratch Awl. Millers Falls No. 365. Tool box dings, a good user. $2 Scratch Awl. Stanley Handyman. Tool box dings, a good user. $2 Bill Ghio bghio@d... ---- Start of Message 132958 ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-05-03 16:28:39 Subject: Re: Acid vs. electrozapping. As I mentioned in an earlier post I am not quite satisfied with the electrolysis method of rust removal. Too messy. Too much scrubbing of the black deposit, which I think is magnetite. I was intrigued by the wheel cleaner method so I went to my local speed shop and bought a 16 oz. spray bottle of Busch heavy duty aluminum wash for severely oxidized uncoated surfaces. "Spray it on hose it off." The label states it contains dilute phosphoric acid. My research shows this acid to be a good choice for iron oxide removal. It attacks the oxide very quickly and is slow to etch the iron base metal. Will give this product a try tonight and report back here. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ---- Start of Message 132959 ---- From: "don goldenhersh" Date: 2004-05-03 20:21:54 Subject: Re: American White Wood ..tulip tree Hi Galoots, Tulip trees grow in missouri real well.There are some humongous ones. It is said that a lot of them die in propagation so a lot of growers do not mess with them.My experience with them has told me to be very gentle with them during transplanting as they are persnickedy about getting moved around.They croak when their rootballs get broken up. I cut up some tulip wood a couple years ago from A GIGANTIC ONE.That wood is really beautiful,and probably dry by now...hummm.thanks!!Don Goldenhersh in sunny then cloudy columbia, missouri ---- Start of Message 132960 ---- From: Jerry Davis Date: 2004-05-03 16:32:07 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought Rex Wilson wrote: > By the way, in my turn of the century woodworking books, the British > writers refer to a wood which they call American Deal (red and white). > Any heads up on this common name? I've always thought that Deal was pine so American Deal (red and white) could refer to red and white pine: Pinus resinosa and Pinus strobus. They have similar uses and properties, although red pine is more resinous and looks more like the southern pines. It is common in the northeast and Great Lakes area of the US. Jerry Griffin, GA ---- Start of Message 132961 ---- From: cpmueller@c... Date: 2004-05-03 20:47:15 Subject: RE: The Bench is Operational The link! Duh. Remove brain to make room for bench euphoria. http://home.comcast.net/~cpmueller/wsb/index.html Thanks. Pete > What happened to the Link????? > > > Best Regards, > John > > > John J Black > Consulting Engineer & President > > JJBlack & Associates, Inc. > 22938 Euclid > St. Clair Shores, MI 48082-2042 USA > Email: john@j... > Cell: 586.855-7975 > -----Original Message----- > From: cpmueller@c... [mailto:cpmueller@c...] > Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 2:31 PM > To: oldtools > Subject: [oldtools] The Bench is Operational > > Galoots, > > It's been over a year since I started the bench project. I started it soon > after joining OT. Since then I've learned alot. I found so much more rust > than I thought I would. My wife is amazed too. She remembers that night at > Applebee's or whatever it is that I had to rescue a beech jointer crucified > to the wall. > > So, below is a link to the pictures of the bench during its construction. > It is not complete but it is functional. What do you all think? > > Best Regards, > > Pete Mueller > GPP, Michigan > > P.S. I used the galoot logo and pointed to some folks webpages on my site. > What's the proper ettiquette for that? If anyone is offended, please ping > me off list and I will take care of any offense. > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > ---- Start of Message 132962 ---- From: "Murray Roblin" Date: 2004-05-03 13:57:10 Subject: RE: Acid vs. electrozapping. Andy wrote:=20 > Where do you get this metal etch? I've used lab grade=20 > phosphoric, diluted of course, and had good results. I was=20 > actually thinking of submerging some rust in Coca-cola since=20 > it contains low concentrations of phosphoric. =20 I get the metal etch at my local borg or mid-box hw store (OSH). I even think that my local ACE hardware carries it. It's branded Jasco and comes in pint plastic bottles. Apparently you can get it in concrete etch/cleaners, though sometimes these have other acids mixed in. >=20 > Somebody mentioned acid disposal earlier. My suggestion=20 > would be to dilute the acid with water and then neutralize it=20 > with sodium bicarb (baking soda) until it stops bubbling. =20 > The key here is to dilute with *lots* of water to avoid a=20 > violent reaction. When the mixture is neutral (i.e. pH=3D7 and=20 > no more bubbling when you add baking soda) you can dump it=20 > down the drain. After the etch, I neutralize the part being cleaned with a dilute solution of baking soda. If I'm using the etch as a metal treatment prior to painting, I follow with distilled water and then alcohol. I hadn't really thought about safe disposal of the acid as it's so dilute, but I like your idea. >=20 Murray ---- Start of Message 132963 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-05-03 17:11:13 Subject: old tools forum Ed was climbing out from under the porch when he got his pants caught on a nail. I'd be happy to post this for you > Hello Jonathan; Would you be kind enough to post the > following to the forum? (I have tried twice to subscribe but > for some reason passwords are not accepted; I can see > messages but cant post. I have sent a message to the admin > but I don't have a reply yet. THANKS> > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Patient Coach required for a GIT (Galoot In Training) > > I am rescuing (I can hear some of you wailing already about > the unwashed being allowed to fondle the tools...) a Stanley > transitional jack plane #26 that suffered from acute neglect > by persons unknown. (the usual suspects were rounded up but > to no avail..) The plane will be given to a user as a gift. > > DISCLAIMER: Assume I know nothing about planes (as you will > discover soon enough...........) > > It has had an additional (replacement) sole added with about > 40+ wooden pegs slightly larger than toothpicks, set in > three rows. The pegs seem hand-carved (whittled). Several > hours of following links on the net have given me plenty on > restoring the metal, but precious little on how to restore > the wood, other than the use of shellac as a finish. I will > be buying a new blade to replace the original which has > fared poorly over time. I will allow the recipient of the > plane the unmitigated pleasure of tuning it, since such > arcane skills are beyond any GIT. > > It may be faster if someone just points me to a web link > with this information; The questions are; > 1. Carving and replacing lost pegs; should these be glued in > place? if not glued, how to correct shrinkage in the > original pins and firm up the attachment of the > replacement sole? > 2. What finish, if any, does the sole get? > 3. Is shellac the appropriate finish for the body of a user > plane? How much of the old finish should be removed? > With what method (sandpaper, steel wool & solvent) Are > the ball and tote finished in the same way as the body? > Thanks for your help. > Ed in Ottawa > ed@a... ---- Start of Message 132964 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-05-03 16:34:01 Subject: Re: Please Help ID This Stanley Logo Bill, I have only seen this TM once before - also on a #101 (which is currently sitting by my computer). I have always assumed that this TM was unique to the 101, and that it was very early. I am sure someone will now disabuse me of that notion and identify numerous places and dates it was used. :-) Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Rittner" To: "oldtools" Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 3:20 PM Subject: [oldtools] Please Help ID This Stanley Logo > Yesterday at the flea market a friend and fellow tool trader gave me an old > Stanley 101 plane. Upon cleaning it the blade showed a trade mark I have > never seen before. While it looks somewhat like the J trade mark it is not > exact. I posted a pic on my website and would appreciate any info. > > http://members.cox.net/wcrittner/100logo.jpg ---- Start of Message 132965 ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-05-03 17:04:50 Subject: Curing Beech Hi All Well, I got a little lucky last week and came across a large Beech tree coming down (Actually already bucked up). Lot of firewood, but a lot of quarter sawn stock for planes. I am using petrol molecules and some electrons (Yes, I am ashamed. I'll polish the spittoon later, but right now I just want to get it cut up and drying before I loose it to checking.) I have been cutting the wood about 11" long, 4" high and 1" to 3" thick (all quarter sawn). Of course I can coat the ends and air dry it for 2 - 5 years, but I want to take Todd's course this summer, and would use some of this Beech if possible. So, my question is how might I (who does not own a kiln) go about drying some of this stock in a more rapid manner? Thanks in advance. Chris PS: My kitchen oven's lowest temp is 170 deg F. I tried a piece in it and within two hours it was developing some nasty checks. ---- Start of Message 132966 ---- From: "Lamar keeney" Date: 2004-05-03 18:06:11 Subject: RE: saw whet owl Blake, Made me wonder how many saw sharpeners ever saw a "Saw Whet Owl". Odds are probably bout even. a good day to all, Lamar >From: "Blake Ashley" >Reply-To: "Blake Ashley" >To: "oldtools" >Subject: [oldtools] saw whet owl >Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 08:57:57 -0700 > >Hi All, > >I thought of you yesterday when I was looking through a bird book with >my son and came upon the Saw Whet Owl. So named because its call >purportedly sounds like a saw being sharpened. I wonder how many modern >birdwatchers have actually heard a saw being sharpened? > >Blake > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://youroffers.msn.com ---- Start of Message 132967 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-03 17:27:52 Subject: Re: American White Wood was The Gorman-Grandstaff Not really, Jim. The area I worked with a lot of Poplar up in northern mn is classified by the agricultural standards to be Zone 3. There are only 2 or 3 zones colder on the entire earth. It's very hardy as far as I and all of the agricultural standards are concerned unless you wish to point out to me which species grows in Antartica..... As far as your comparison to Alaska goes MN weather is very comparable to much of Alaska. I think it was Fairbanks, Alaska that my fishermen friend in college used to always compare MN to. He made a living fishing out of Alaska. We all used to think he was so nuts thinking it was so much colder and he told us Fairbanks was comparable. Since then when I see the weather news I pay attention to it and he was/is right. I think I looked it up in an almanac once, too. I think you are confusing my inclusion of poplar with tulip poplar. Remember there is more than one species of any given tree. > [Original Message] > From: Jim Wallbridge > To: oldtools > Cc: Jim Wallbridge > Date: 5/3/2004 2:49:10 PM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] American White Wood was The Gorman-Grandstaff > > > On Sunday, May 2, 2004, at 10:16 AM, John Sawchak wrote in part: > > American white wood is often tulip poplar or poplar.... It > > has become popular because it is very hardy and even in the coldest of > > areas it grows fast like a weed.... > John must have a very different meaning of "very hardy" and "coldest" > than than many as it only native in the eastern US and the extreme > southern parts of Ontario according to my references. I assume it will > also grow in most other parts of the US, other than perhaps the plains, > south of about 40N. I would expect that a very hard species would > grow in the coldest parts of NA such as central Alaska. > jim > (James ME Wallbridge P. Eng (retired).) Libertarian, Metallurgist, Wood > & Metal Worker, Fly Fisher, Resident of Calgary, Canada's new head > office location of choice. Permission is hereby given to use any or > all information herein, as an attributed quote, unless the body of the > message states otherwise. > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 132968 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-03 17:34:31 Subject: Re: American White Wood was The Gorman-Grandstaff Well it is what the lumberyards around here are selling as "white wood". When you use a generic term for something how can you expect any such accuracy? It's contrary to the very definition intrinsic to something as vague as "white wood" and I don't see the point in arguing over semantics. > [Original Message] > From: Larry Marshall > To: oldtools > Date: 5/3/2004 3:29:30 PM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] American White Wood was The Gorman-Grandstaff > > > On Monday 03 May 2004 03:17 pm, you wrote: > > On Sunday, May 2, 2004, at 10:16 AM, John Sawchak wrote in part: > > > American white wood is often tulip poplar or poplar.... It > > > has become popular because it is very hardy and even in the > > > coldest of areas it grows fast like a weed.... > > It is a heap-big error to suggest that tulip poplar and poplar are > the same thing. In fact, tulip poplar isn't a poplar at all. It's > part of the magnolia family and its scientific name is > > Liriodendron tulipifera > > Poplar, on the other hand refers to a bunch of different trees in > the genus Populus. The term "American white wood" is a fairly > loose term from what I can tell but most often it refers to > basswood, not poplar. Again, a completely different genus (Tilia). ---- Start of Message 132969 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-03 17:41:16 Subject: RE: Turned a bud vase Beautiful! Ever since I saw that picture of Richard's Bud Vase I have been thinking the same thing and with mother's day coming up it seems an especially fitting project. What kind of finish did you put on that, Jim? A little darker than my normal preferences but I'm sure it will make a flower "pop" by comparison. > [Original Message] > From: Jim Thompson > To: oldtools > Date: 5/3/2004 3:04:20 PM > Subject: [oldtools] Turned a bud vase > > I have been itching to turn a bud vase ever since I received the one > done by Richard Wilson. Today SWMBO is on jury duty and I found a > suitable piece of Apricot wood in my future somethings pile, and so I > says to myself, I says, "Self, you need to get out to the shop and > turn a bud vase!" And sure enough, about 2 hours later I had me a bud > vase that SWMBO is gonna be proud of. > > I couldn't make myself turn down a piece of wood that big to use for a > tool handle, but it wasn't big enough to cut in half long ways and > still have anything useful. A bud vase seemed like the perfect use for > this piece of wood. I found four more pieces about this size in the > pile. They may also become bud vases. Time will tell. > > I took a picture of it along with the vase of Richard's, which served > for inspiration. Take a look, it is the first picture on the page. > > http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/PhotoAlbum55.html > > > > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 132970 ---- From: "P J McBride" Date: 2004-05-04 08:40:41 Subject: RE: Please Help ID This Stanley Logo Bill and Frank, I have a 101 in my hand that has the same logo but without the 2 arrow heads. Because I have very good info on the history of this plane, I know mine is as old as a Chaplin's #20 early patent block, and Metallic Plane Co Plane with a faucet wheel adjuster, and a Type 5 Stanley #5 plane. That makes it around 1874 -80. I did a little thinking and looking over the last few years... Walter has a similar logo stamped on the skate of #41 and 42 Miller Patent Plough Planes from 1870 - 74, where the patent date is stamped elsewhere. I think the logo on the 101 is from the same era, because at that time other planes had logos with patent dates included. The 101 was "patent free" so had to have it's own stamp without a patent date. How does that sound to others?? Regards, Peter in Melbourne, Australia. ---- Start of Message 132971 ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-05-03 18:43:09 Subject: Re: thumbnail profile > i've been looking for a thumbnail profile for making drawer fronts to > no avail. i've thought about modifying one of my beaten-down side > beads for the task. considering how common thumbnail drawer fronts > are, why aren't thumbnail planes more plentiful? what have ye all > done? > Whelan refers to them as casing molding planes. He says they cut a simple quarter round with a fillet. I think of thumbnail profiles as not being quarter rounds, but with an elongated geometry. I asked a question similar to yours years ago and was pointed towards ovolos. Again, I wanted something more elongated and not the simple quarter of a circle. Whelan refers to these as Grecian Ovolos. The form he shows seems too elongated. I was about to make a thumbnail plane as my first experiment in planemaking when someone (Jason?) offered a slipped model for sale on the list. I snapped it up and love that thing. I have never seen another one for sale in the wild and haven't noticed them on dealer's list. They are a rare bird. Using a rabbet and then a hollow does work fine. I've done it and it is sorta easy to do. Having a dedicated plane is very nice and begs the question you started with, "Why are they uncommon?" Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 132972 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-03 17:50:48 Subject: RE: saw whet owl I dunno, but it is a thing of beauty. I sharpened a 5 point rip saw yesterday, a very old one that had a few broken teeth near the nose, and it occured to me it was the one thing I really forgot to tell the last person on here I gave advice to on saw sharpening. Try to make the same sound on each tooth. Probably the best feedback in saw sharpening is in the sound being made during the process though I am not sure if the sounds I make are anything near those of you using sheet metal benders, err...saw vises. Since all I do is clamp two 2 by 4s on each side of the saw in the vise. Come to think of it I have never heard any owl make a sound like a saw being sharpened though I did see a snow owl weather out a two day long snowstorm on a huge branch outside the cabin's window one winter. The owl's calmness through this raging winter storm amazed me. I suspect it probably just had a very large meal and didn't feel like moving. > [Original Message] > From: Blake Ashley > To: oldtools > Date: 5/3/2004 10:59:20 AM > Subject: [oldtools] saw whet owl > > Hi All, > > I thought of you yesterday when I was looking through a bird book with > my son and came upon the Saw Whet Owl. So named because its call > purportedly sounds like a saw being sharpened. I wonder how many modern > birdwatchers have actually heard a saw being sharpened? > > Blake ---- Start of Message 132973 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-05-03 19:30:07 Subject: Re: The Bench is Operational > The link! Duh. Remove brain to make room for bench euphoria. Sounds like a fair trade :-) Nice bench, Pete. I like the way you can separate the drawer carcass from the rest. Disassemble capability is always a virtue. Lots of drive-bys on the great tools. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132974 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-03 18:31:27 Subject: RE: Acid vs. electrozapping. That's about what I thought, particularly the last line. The warnings I have read of hydrofluoric acid is that just a few parts per BILLION can have fumes so bad that one is coughing up blood and anything more is instantly lethal. If it has any at all very little would be an extreme understatement. I'm glad someone else has the scientific chemistry knowledge so that I'm not all alone on this one. But remember my earlier point -- wax is immune to even this HF acid. It's really amazing stuff. > [Original Message] > From: Andy Seaman > To: oldtools > Date: 5/3/2004 4:59:09 PM > Subject: RE:[oldtools] Acid vs. electrozapping. > > snippage: > acid, sold as metal etch or metal prep - it does a good job of > converting the rust and is much safer to handle. > > Murray> > > Murray, > > Where do you get this metal etch? I've used lab grade phosphoric, diluted of course, and had good results. I was actually thinking of submerging some rust in Coca-cola since it contains low concentrations of phosphoric. > > Somebody mentioned acid disposal earlier. My suggestion would be to dilute the acid with water and then neutralize it with sodium bicarb (baking soda) until it stops bubbling. The key here is to dilute with *lots* of water to avoid a violent reaction. When the mixture is neutral (i.e. pH=7 and no more bubbling when you add baking soda) you can dump it down the drain. > > Ken mentioned that HF causes painful burns and destroys bones. Trust me, this is not the major concern. HF has an active fluoride ion that binds calcium (hence the destroyed bones). While this sounds unpleasant, it's almost certain that an exposure level high enough to damage bones will lead to severe hypocalcemia first, causing one's heart to stop beating. > > The moral of the story is that I'm sure Jim's wheel cleaner contains *very* little or no HF! > > -Andy > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 132975 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-05-03 19:38:13 Subject: Re: saw whet owl I have to jump in here because, well...let's just say at first I thought I had my lists mixed up. First, regarding this... > Probably the best feedback in saw sharpening is in the sound > being made during the process... I am certainly not a sharpening pro - but with my limited experience I agree with this a lot. I think the thing that stuck with me the MOST from the Tom Law video is just hearing the sound and watching his motion. I hear (and try to emulate) that rythmnic sound in my head whenever I (attempt to) sharpen. There was some discussion a while ago about how long a file can be used. I tend to think the sound changes as the file gets used up - at least that is what I believe to be true. > Come to think of it I have never heard any owl make a sound like a saw > being sharpened though I did see a snow owl weather out a two day long > snowstorm on a huge branch outside the cabin's window one winter. The owl's > calmness through this raging winter storm amazed me. I suspect it probably > just had a very large meal and didn't feel like moving. Saw Whet's only make the "saw sound" when alarmed - normally they make a repetitive "tooting" sound. On some other lists seeing a Snowy Owl could be considered a gloat :). Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 132976 ---- From: "M.Stadulis" Date: 2004-05-03 19:41:45 Subject: Re: thumbnail profile Hey guys, the Leachmeister has two for sale this month. A 1/2 and 7/8 inch model. The 1/2 would be perfect for drawer faces. Regards, Michael Stadulis Gloucester County, New Jersey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Reynolds" To: "oldtools" Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 6:43 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] thumbnail profile > > i've been looking for a thumbnail profile for making drawer fronts to > > no avail. i've thought about modifying one of my beaten-down side > > beads for the task. considering how common thumbnail drawer fronts > > are, why aren't thumbnail planes more plentiful? what have ye all > > done? > > > > Whelan refers to them as casing molding planes. He says they cut a > simple quarter round with a fillet. I think of thumbnail profiles as not > being quarter rounds, but with an elongated geometry. I asked a question > similar to yours years ago and was pointed towards ovolos. Again, I wanted > something more elongated and not the simple quarter of a circle. Whelan > refers to these as Grecian Ovolos. The form he shows seems too elongated. > I was about to make a thumbnail plane as my first experiment in planemaking > when someone (Jason?) offered a slipped model for sale on the list. I > snapped it up and love that thing. I have never seen another one for sale > in the wild and haven't noticed them on dealer's list. They are a rare > bird. > > Using a rabbet and then a hollow does work fine. I've done it and it is > sorta easy to do. Having a dedicated plane is very nice and begs the > question you started with, "Why are they uncommon?" > > Regards, > Steve > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132977 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-05-03 19:42:20 Subject: Re: Acid vs. electrozapping. First, I am cautiously curious where all this leads to (mostly because I have been too lazy to set up a zap-tank). Second, is there perhaps an implicit assumption that these wheel cleaners are used outdoors (or at least in a well ventilated garage) since they are used for automotive applications? Doesn't sound like something I would want to do in the basement. Bruce ---- Start of Message 132978 ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-05-03 16:48:35 Subject: Re: thumbnail profile Steve Reynolds wrote: > I have never seen another one for sale in the wild and haven't noticed > them on dealer's list. They are a rare bird. > Having a dedicated plane is very nice and begs the question you started > with, "Why are they uncommon?" Mr Leach happens to have two of them this month, in case anyone missed it, WP9 A.Howland 1/2" (depth of cut) thumbnail molder; the classic profile for edges of lids, table tops, etc. and in an uncommon size; left: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/t25.jpg $75.00 WP10 Josiah King 7/8" (depth of cut) thumbnail; in brand new condition, it may have been used once; a very shallow check at the toe, if you're making blanket chests, you need this for the lid; right: http://www.supertool.com/forsale/t25.jpg $95.00 -- Kyle Accardi in tropical Portland, OR ---- Start of Message 132979 ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-05-03 19:52:02 Subject: Wheel Cleaner De-rusting Report I tried the Busch Wheel Cleaner and found it worked good, but at $25/gal was too expensive. Then I went to the local HD and bought a gal of Behr Concrete Etch and Rust Remover........that's right it specifies for rust removal in it's title. Cleaned a Jennings screw auger in 1/2 hour. Cleaned the parts for a Stanley #3 in about an hour. I should have listened to Jim a long time ago. My new zap tank is history! Phosphoric acid is my choice for rust removal from now on. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ---- Start of Message 132980 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-05-03 19:55:11 Subject: Re: American White Wood was The Gorman-Grandstaff > I think you are confusing my inclusion of poplar with tulip > poplar. Remember there is more than one species of any given > tree. No, not really, John. There's more than one popular name for a lot of trees and there are popular names that are used to describe a bunch of different species, but each tree is a single species, by definition. The only exceptions would be a grafting, where, say, an apple branch is grafted to a cherry tree in an attempt to create cher-ples or something :-) To your cold-tolerance of poplar thoughts, I'd have to agree. Aspens are part of the genus Populus and while there aren't a lot of species in the genus, all are considered 'poplars' and they cover most of the environmental ranges in North America, from the riparian/desert Cottonwoods to the upper elevation/cold aspens. Most of the commercial wood, however, comes from other species, sometimes hybrids of species like Populus alba, P. nigra, P. deltoides and others. So...depending on who was doing the talking, a lot of different trees could be called poplar and you could be in a lot of different habitats. This, in fact, is one of the reasons it's such an oft-used wood. The other reason is their incredible growth rates. The Finns have large plantations of the stuff that they use in energy generation. The species they cultivate grows like bamboo, thin little sticks that grow like weeds. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ------------------------------------------------------- -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132981 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-05-03 19:55:32 Subject: Re: American White Wood was The Gorman-Grandstaff > Well it is what the lumberyards around here are selling as "white > wood". When you use a generic term for something how can you > expect any such accuracy? It's contrary to the very definition I agree, John. Common names of plants and animals vary from place to place and from situation to situation. While the lumberyards in your area may call it whitewood, if it's Tilia (basswood) they're talking about, the woodcarving store down the street, or the hobby shop, will call it basswood. It's also called American lime in some places and I'd bet there are many more names for it (grin). Here in Quebec we call it "Tilleul." > intrinsic to something as vague as "white wood" and I don't see > the point in arguing over semantics. Gee...didn't know we were arguing at all. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 132982 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-05-03 19:58:32 Subject: re: The Bench is Operational > What is important is how you went >about rescueing the crucified plane. I didn't think >those places would part with their decor, at least not at any reasonable true galoot price. I often wondered about this - but never saw anything worthwhile in any such establishment. But, perhaps now the time to rescue these tools in need. Perhaps it is time to form the GALOOT (Galoot Army for the Liberation Of Old Tools) - the rescuers of all bolted, painted, and otherwise abused old tools. Who's with me? Oh wait...I guess we still haven't cleaned out all of the Garage Sales and Flea Markets yet...nevermind. Actually, I always wondered where those eating establishments got the stuff they hang on the walls. Bruce Love Pipersville, PA (who's wondering how many 'alarms' this email will trip up with my friends at the NSA). ---- Start of Message 132983 ---- From: "Ron Hock" Date: 2004-05-03 17:14:29 Subject: Re: Wheel Cleaner De-rusting Report > My new zap tank is history! Phosphoric acid is my choice for rust > removal from now on. But... But... But... Doesn't acid etch away good metal along with the rust? Where electolysis converts only the rust and has no effect on the base metal? Am I missing something? Ron Hock HOCK TOOLS www.hocktools.com 16650 Mitchell Creek Dr. Fort Bragg, CA 95437 (707) 964-2782 toll free: (888) 282-5233 fax: (707) 964-7816 ---- Start of Message 132984 ---- From: "Peter Williams" Date: 2004-05-04 10:32:25 Subject: RE: Wheel Cleaner De-rusting Report > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Hock [mailto:ron@h...] > > But... But... But... Doesn't acid etch away good metal along with > the rust? > Where electolysis converts only the rust and has no effect on the base > metal? Am I missing something? > And the phosphoric acid "Rust converter" products I'm familiar with leave a grey, rough "phosphated" surface on the steel. -- Peter Williams ---- Start of Message 132985 ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-05-03 20:53:40 Subject: Re: Curing Beech > So, my question is how might I (who does not own a kiln) go about drying > some of this stock in a more rapid manner? > Chris > > PS: My kitchen oven's lowest temp is 170 deg F. I tried a piece in it and > within two hours it was developing some nasty checks. Without a kiln, I think you're out of luck. Even with a kiln, it's a difficult wood from what I'm looking at. Per table 5 in "The Conversion and Seasoning of Wood" .... minimum drying time for 1" thick beech going from green condition to 18-20% moisture using an air-dry setup is a little faster than European boxwood but otherwise about the slowest of hardwoods ... you might get that done in 6-15 months, while dealing with, as noted in the table, "tendency to warp, surface check and end split". The shorter time assumes setting the wood out in spring season. That gets you to a moisture content more or less suitable for use in construction. Furniture making, and I would assume planemaking use, would require something more like 8-10% moisture, and this reference doesn't give the time to get there, but 2-5 years doesn't seem out of line to me. Drying wood quickly, if not done with proven methods, is likely to produce a dry, shrunken outer layer and a green inner layer, setting up internal stresses that can have some very undesirable consequences. Usual evidence of these are the things mentioned above and what you've already seen ... warping, surface checking and splitting. Moisture has to migrate out through the material at a pace that doesn't produce these problems, so patience is definitely a virtue with this. Another thread awhile back talked about prepping beech for plane use, IIRC. Personally, and it's just my opinion, I don't think you'd want to risk converting all your green stock for future planes into firewood by pushing it hard. Might find that your freshly roughed out plane blank does some unpleasant things in the darkness while you're in bed anticipating the next day's planemaking efforts with Todd. Might be better to bite the bullet and buy stock for Todd's class. Charlie Driggs Newark DE ---- Start of Message 132986 ---- From: "Lamar keeney" Date: 2004-05-03 20:56:08 Subject: WTB: Type 7 or 8,# 6 Frog, and a short story.. Gotta help me on this one, so as my sister will leave mine alone.(Can you consider a grandmother a GIT)., Well it all got started when asked to trim a door, after spending over twenty years as a carpenter she had "that look on her face" when I pulled out an old low nob #5, and procided throw shavings. Guess she was expecting some Norm thing or the other. That done it!" How did you do that?" "Well you put one hand here and the other back here, and push with equel pressure".Not what she wanted to know. She procided to show me a plane that she had aquiered," not worthy of door stop material." After I let her uses mine,I think I throwed a few marbles out to get her to "the Slope." After that, she just had to learn this thing, sharpnening and all. Doesn't like my no.8, to heavy,I'm still looking for a#7,(have since aquired one through this good sight) but I'll not give up my no. 6, as it was given to me. Found this one with the busted frog if anyone has one availible would appriciat it. It don't have to be perty just work. Lamar, who's done hooked her up with a no.4 & 5. & a 9 1/4 , How much should one ask of a brother?Who's keeping a close eye on his spoke shaves. Many thanks to all _________________________________________________________________ Mother’s Day is May 9. Make it special with great ideas from the Mother’s Day Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04mothersday.armx ---- Start of Message 132987 ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-05-03 21:02:54 Subject: Re: Wheel Cleaner De-rusting Report Ron Hock wrote: >> My new zap tank is history! Phosphoric acid is my choice for rust >> removal from now on. > > But... But... But... Doesn't acid etch away good metal along with the rust? > Where electolysis converts only the rust and has no effect on the base > metal? Am I missing something? > If you are, so am I. I like the zap tank. I read posts wherein zappers are letting things sit for a day or more. No need to wait that long if you don't want to. I did a rusty old wing divider last night in 15 minutes and it freed up the joint and had the surface looking good. And it took only a little scrubbing with a scrubbie to get it so. And all the black rust goes down the drain without becoming airborne and sucked down my lungs. No diddling with acids, no etching of the surface, and took about 10 cents worth of baking soda. It's the least muss and fuss method of getting a tool in badly rusted condition in user shape that I know of. How did the zap tank get such a bad rep so fast? Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 132988 ---- From: sepost@i... (Scott Post) Date: 2004-05-03 20:07:57 Subject: Re: Curing Beech; > Chris wrote: > > So, my question is how might I (who does not own a kiln) go > about drying > some of this stock in a more rapid manner? > You might drop Larry Williams (of Clark & Williams at www.planemaker.com) an e-mail. I seem to recall that he was using an incandescent bulb in an insulated box as a kiln to dry out plane blanks. I'm not sure if it'd get you where you need to be by this summer though. -- Scott Post sepost@i... http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/ ---- Start of Message 132989 ---- From: "Bryan Lloyd" Date: 2004-05-04 00:44:11 Subject: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing I have been working on a Bob Key style workbench for a few months now, and this weekend I finally had the opportunity to work on my sharpening and planing skills, or lack thereof! My results were ok overall, and several comments and questions came to mind. I used Scary Sharp with grits 220, 240, 320, 400, 600, 1200, and 2000 with the Veritas jig system on a Stanley #5. Since this is a Bob Key style bench, I am using 2x4 pine from a home store. In general, I am not sure if the results and issues that I had are normal, or if I just need to change and improve my technique. Any comments are greatly appreciated! Sharpening 1. I wasn't sure how far I should go with flattening the back. How can I tell that the back is flat enough so that the cutting edge will be as sharp as possible when you finish honing the bevel? The iron was in pretty good condition (no nicks or damage) to start with. 2. I went through a lot of sandpaper to hone the bevel. It seemed like the silicon carbide paper (from Klingspor) lost some of its sanding ability after only 10 strokes or so. Is this normal? 3. In general, I guess it plane iron was sharp but not as sharp as some folks have indicated is possible with Scary Sharp. It would shave paper and some hairs on my arm, but it wasn't exactly a knife through butter. My problem is, I am not sure what I could improve upon with the sharpening or if my expectations were too high. I proceeded until I got a mirror finish on the back and on the bevel, and I did add a 1 degree micro bevel. Planing 4. I cleaned and tuned a Stanley #5 and used it on the legs of the workbench. The result I think were good but not great. The surface does look much improved over the rough original condition. However, there were some little depressions from the wood grain that did not smooth away with the planing. Also, I could still feel some roughness with my finger if I touch the wood surface. Could this reflect my need to improve sharpening and planing or might it have to do with the quality of the wood I was using. 5. As I planed a 3 foot long and 3 1/2 inch wide surface, it seemed like there were times that the plane would not take a full length shaving as if it wasn't getting any flatter with successive strokes. I would sometimes take a shaving in the beginning and end of the stroke, but not in the middle of the surface, and I couldn't figure out why this was happening. 6. As I planed a surface, I would change the blade depth slightly between when I wanted to flatten the surface and take off high spots to when I needed to take lighter shavings. Also, I felt it much harder to push the plane the length of the piece when it was flat enough to take a full length shaving. Is this normal? 7. I have heard that you can get a surface nicer with planing than with sanding. Granted, I was not trying to go this far for this project, but the planed surfaces did feel rougher than things I have sanded in the past. Should I expect a glass-like finish with 2x4 pine from a home store? 8. In general, the planing was a little harder than I expected. Is there a rule of thumb for how it should "feel"? Thanks for any comments or advice. I will be back at it this weekend! Bryan Lloyd ---- Start of Message 132990 ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-05-03 21:11:56 Subject: Re: thumbnail profile Kyle replied: > Steve Reynolds wrote: > >> I have never seen another one for sale in the wild and haven't noticed >> them on dealer's list. They are a rare bird. > >> Having a dedicated plane is very nice and begs the question you started >> with, "Why are they uncommon?" > > > > Mr Leach happens to have two of them this month, in case anyone missed it, > > WP9 A.Howland 1/2" (depth of cut) thumbnail molder; the > classic profile for edges of lids, table tops, etc. > and in an uncommon size; left: > http://www.supertool.com/forsale/t25.jpg $75.00 > WP10 Josiah King 7/8" (depth of cut) thumbnail; in brand > new condition, it may have been used once; a very > shallow check at the toe, if you're making blanket > chests, you need this for the lid; right: > http://www.supertool.com/forsale/t25.jpg $95.00 > Similar to when you state you are in the market for buying a tool and then they all disappear, saying something is rare and hard to find will bring them out, it seems. The two planes cited above are in real nice condition, and have nice profiles. But..., they look like sections of circles as I described previously. Looking at furniture that has a thumbnail profile on edges will give one an appreciation for the grecian form of the curve. It just looks nicer to my eye. The sizes above are a little large for your typical drawer front or table edge. Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 132991 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-05-03 21:48:06 Subject: Re: Wheel Cleaner De-rusting Report > > How did the zap tank get such a bad rep so fast? > > Regards, > Steve Steve/GG's, Don't look at me, I love my zap tank, and use it daily. There is a very big Disston Backsaw in there right now. I know some folks mention that it takes too long. I don't find that a problem. I tend to zap one saw, while I work on the handle of another, sorta assembly line like. Works good for me. That whole acid thing scares me. I must say again, the zap tank is your friend. My name is Al Perreault, and I approve this message. ---- Start of Message 132992 ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 2004-05-03 21:50:22 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought My impression has always been that "deal" refers to pine and its rough equivalents -- in current US lumber-speak, that would be SPF (spruce-pine-fir). Perhaps the red and white deal referred to early in the century drew a distinction between the harder, more orange-colored southern yellow pine and ordinary white pine? Or perhaps pine vs. hemlock? On Monday, May 3, 2004 at 10:58:45 AM, Rex Wilson wrote: >>. Don't recall seeing a red vs. white >>distinction, but maybe something like cedar or such too? >> >>Best Wishes, >>Bob >> > Yep, kind of what I was thinking. Thanks Bob. > The red and white ref. was in an old text book I should have > purchased from one of the local antique dealers. Mechanical Bench > Work c. 1901 or some such old speak. I may just migrate back there > and see if the collected volumes are still gathering dust on the > shelves;-) Speculate that the "Deal" might be white cedar and red > cedar, but the context of my read indicated that the wood was a > secondary one to be used for mockup and hidden furniture parts. Red > cedar might not fit this bill - what say? > -Rex > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools -- Michael D. Sullivan Bethesda, MD, USA ---- Start of Message 132993 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-03 18:55:44 Subject: Re: Turned a bud vase The darkness is simply the wood. I used only wax on it for a finish. That seems to be customary for bud vases. SWMBO is home from jury duty now, and she loves it! I done GOOD!!! On Monday, May 3, 2004, at 03:41 PM, John Sawchak wrote: > Beautiful! > > Ever since I saw that picture of Richard's Bud Vase I have been > thinking > the same thing and with mother's day coming up it seems an especially > fitting project. What kind of finish did you put on that, Jim? A little > darker than my normal preferences but I'm sure it will make a flower > "pop" > by comparison. > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Jim Thompson >> To: oldtools >> Date: 5/3/2004 3:04:20 PM >> Subject: [oldtools] Turned a bud vase >> >> I have been itching to turn a bud vase ever since I received the one >> done by Richard Wilson. Today SWMBO is on jury duty and I found a >> suitable piece of Apricot wood in my future somethings pile, and so I >> says to myself, I says, "Self, you need to get out to the shop and >> turn a bud vase!" And sure enough, about 2 hours later I had me a bud >> vase that SWMBO is gonna be proud of. >> >> I couldn't make myself turn down a piece of wood that big to use for a >> tool handle, but it wasn't big enough to cut in half long ways and >> still have anything useful. A bud vase seemed like the perfect use for >> this piece of wood. I found four more pieces about this size in the >> pile. They may also become bud vases. Time will tell. >> >> I took a picture of it along with the vase of Richard's, which served >> for inspiration. Take a look, it is the first picture on the page. >> >> http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/PhotoAlbum55.html >> >> >> >> Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA >> >> >> Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >> To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >> http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 132994 ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-05-03 22:25:01 Subject: Re: Plane maker Mike asked: > Today I received as a gift several planes, wooden and iron. > One iron plane has an odd depth adjustment. There is a lever attached > to an eccentric on a handwheel on the underside of the frog. The lever > travels at it's lower end in a cast trough in the frog. A pin on the > this lower end engages a round hole in the iron and chip breaker. A > patent on the blade says Jan 1880. The cap is held down with another > small screw with a cast knob with decorative elements, eight flower > petals (looks like a Japanese Crysanthemum on WWII rifles). Baileyish > knob and tote, #3 size, in old but good condition. > > Could it be a Siegley plane? http://www.datamp.org/displayPatent.php?number=269967&typeCode=0 If your plane actually has a 3 instead of a 0 in the date, this sounds like it is a candidate. I keep looking at the Siegley and Hahn planes in PTAMPIA and they sort of fit your description, but not exactly. Any day associated with that Jan. 1880 patent date? PTAMPIA shows a Multiform Moulding Plane Co. plane with a floral brass screw head, but their patents are in the 1850s. The lever attached to an eccentric on a handwheel seems like something Mr Worral of this company was close to, but no real match here. Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 132995 ---- From: "Pete Bergstrom" Date: 2004-05-03 21:29:03 Subject: FS - Stanley 93 shoulder plane I've got a Stanley 93 shoulder plane for sale. It turns out I prefer to use my small L-N shoulder plane, and since my tiny shop is stuffed to overflowing, I'd like to sell it to make room for some other great tool. It's a "Made in England" plane in excellent condition. Garrett Wade sells it for $100 (http://www.garrettwade.com/jump.jsp?lGen=detail&itemID=104800&itemType=PROD UCT&iMainCat=10000&iSubCat=10010&iProductID=104800) Highland Hardware sells it for $105 (http://www.highlandhardware.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=562) I'm asking $70 plus shipping. OT terms if you've got a bio posted. Thanks, Pete Bergstrom St. Paul, MN ---- Start of Message 132996 ---- From: Anatol Polillo Date: 2004-05-03 23:06:27 Subject: FS: Classic Plane Making & More Galoots Once the most versatile of shop tools, today a matched and complete set of Hollows and Rounds is almost impossible to find. Why risk it all, with a crazed spinning hunk of carbide, when you can get better results in the same time with these workhorse planes, just ask Ralph. Tod takes you through all the steps, from wooden blank to finished plane, to make a pair of #14 Hollow and Rounds. His methods, techniques and tips are easy to follow and the results are amazing. Tod is an excellent mechanic; this video is the next best thing to taking one of his classes. The tape runs about 90 minutes. If you don't want to do make your own irons, Bob Howard, of St. James Bay Tool Co. will sell you the blanks you need for your planes. They are made from O-1 Steel. Just let him know what size plane you are making and he will send you the irons. Then just scribe the plane profile on the iron, grind and harden(the fun part) and temper. You can contact Bob at http://www.stjamesbaytoolco.com/ or (800) 574-2589 for more information. Floats you say, I don't have any planemaker's floats! Not to worry, Tod shows you how to make your own set. Sharpening, how do I sharpen a hollow iron??? Tod shares his grinding and buffing secrets. Each tape comes with a complete set of plans for all the jigs and measured drawings for the plane. Check out the link below for more information. At this time, the only method of payment is by check or money order. Price $24.95 plus $3 Shipping MD residents add $1.25 for tax. Please send the total that applies to the following address. Thanks for your support. Check out the links below for the other tapes that are available and clips from them. ALP Productions 3706 Ednor Road Baltimore, Md. 21218-2049 Please be sure to include your name and mailing address. Please allow 3 weeks for delivery. "Classic Plane Making" http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2nwp6/planes/hollow.html "Hand Saw Sharpening" http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2nwp6/saw/saws.htm "Stanley Planes by the Numbers" http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2nwp6/stanley/Stanley.htm "Make a Chair from a Tree" http://www.greenwoodworking.com Now accepting credit cards via PayPal "Classic Plane Making" and more at: http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2nwp6/planes/hollow.html ---- Start of Message 132997 ---- From: T&J Holloway Date: 2004-05-03 20:15:03 Subject: Re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing Bryan and sharpening/planing Newbies: Sharpening, by your numbers: Pre 1) (and point 2): If you are establishing a new bevel starting with 220 grit, you are working too hard and using up sandpaper needlessly. For the rough stuff, start with 80, or even 50 grit. Also, there are some fairly big gaps in your series at finer grits. I normally use 80 (if necessary for a new bevel), 150, 220, 320, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000. The idea is that each grit only replaces the scratches of the previous grit with its own finer scratches, down the line. Smaller steps mean less time at each step, and more efficient use of a system that only SS can accomplish this way. (How many of you stone people use a sequence of 10 different stones?) 1): Galoot-approved finish for back-flattening is so that you can count your nose hairs in the mirror-like surface. Actually the flatness (no high spots) is as important as the surface shine, I think. The idea is that two surfaces come together to form the cutting edge, and nicks or grooves in either of those surfaces, however small, will make the edge deviate from the theoretical ideal. And if your back is not flat, the cutting edge will not be straight. 2): See "pre 1" above, and: For rough grinding of new bevels, get blue Alumina Zirconia sanding belts, in 80 (or 50, for some real grinding power) and 150, cut them at the seam, lay them out flat on your plate, and grind away 3): If you add *any* microbevel using finest grits, then the smoothness of the main bevel is moot, as it does not form part of the cutting edge. I'm only an occasional stropper, but others will tell you to put some white compound on a piece of leather for the final strop--worth a try. Planing: 1): If your well tuned and sharpened plane leaves the surface no better than it cam out of the mill, then either something's wrong, or your supplier uses very nicely tuned planers! Those "little depressions" sound like grain around knots or wavy grain, and it sounds like you're getting the dreaded "tearout." Taking a very fine cut on final passes should help. As for "still being rough," it could be one of three things: a) your tuning and sharpening, b) your technique, including depth of cut, and/or c) the quality (properties) of the wood. If you're using doug fir from the Borg, your expectations may be too high. 2): You don't say if the partial cut, less than full length, are at the start of the process or toward the end. It is normal and expected that initial strokes will take only partial shavings, as the blade encounters high spots. Gradually, as the surface gets closer to.....plane, the shavings should be longer. When you do begin to get full length shavings, it's time to stop, unless further dimensioning is desired. 3): I don't see "wanting to flatten" and "wanting to take lighter shavings" as being mutually exclusive. It is normal that the wider and longer a shaving is, the more work is going to be involved cutting it, compared to a narrow and shorter shaving, ceteris paribus (fancy Latin term for "other things being equal") 4): The rule of thumb for "how you should feel" when planing wood, in this crowd, is "Good." It might help to seek out someone with more experience (other than us, your virtual cyber-mentors) and get some hands on, real time, person to person instruction and advice. HTH, Tom Holloway who usually snips per FAQ, but left the below intact on purpose this time, for reference. On Monday, May 3, 2004, at 05:44 PM, Bryan Lloyd wrote: > I used Scary Sharp with grits 220, 240, 320, 400, 600, 1200, and 2000 > with the Veritas jig system on a Stanley #5. Since this is a Bob Key > style bench, I am using 2x4 pine from a home store. > > In general, I am not sure if the results and issues that I had are > normal, or if I just need to change and improve my technique. Any > comments are greatly appreciated! > > Sharpening > 1. I wasn't sure how far I should go with flattening the back. How > can I tell that the back is flat enough so that the cutting edge will > be as sharp as possible when you finish honing the bevel? The iron > was in pretty good condition (no nicks or damage) to start with. > 2. I went through a lot of sandpaper to hone the bevel. It seemed > like the silicon carbide paper (from Klingspor) lost some of its > sanding ability after only 10 strokes or so. Is this normal? > 3. In general, I guess it plane iron was sharp but not as sharp as > some folks have indicated is possible with Scary Sharp. It would > shave paper and some hairs on my arm, but it wasn't exactly a knife > through butter. My problem is, I am not sure what I could improve > upon with the sharpening or if my expectations were too high. I > proceeded until I got a mirror finish on the back and on the bevel, > and I did add a 1 degree micro bevel. > > Planing > 1. I cleaned and tuned a Stanley #5 and used it on the legs of the > workbench. The result I think were good but not great. The surface > does look much improved over the rough original condition. However, > there were some little depressions from the wood grain that did not > smooth away with the planing. Also, I could still feel some roughness > with my finger if I touch the wood surface. Could this reflect my > need to improve sharpening and planing or might it have to do with the > quality of the wood I was using. > 2. As I planed a 3 foot long and 3 1/2 inch wide surface, it seemed > like there were times that the plane would not take a full length > shaving as if it wasn't getting any flatter with successive strokes. > I would sometimes take a shaving in the beginning and end of the > stroke, but not in the middle of the surface, and I couldn't figure > out why this was happening. > 3. As I planed a surface, I would change the blade depth slightly > between when I wanted to flatten the surface and take off high spots > to when I needed to take lighter shavings. Also, I felt it much > harder to push the plane the length of the piece when it was flat > enough to take a full length shaving. Is this normal? > 4. I have heard that you can get a surface nicer with planing than > with sanding. Granted, I was not trying to go this far for this > project, but the planed surfaces did feel rougher than things I have > sanded in the past. Should I expect a glass-like finish with 2x4 pine > from a home store? > 4. In general, the planing was a little harder than I expected. Is > there a rule of thumb for how it should "feel"? > > Thanks for any comments or advice. I will be back at it this weekend! ---- Start of Message 132998 ---- From: Eddie Sirotich Date: 2004-05-04 03:47:52 Subject: FS: Adria Dovetail and Tenon Saws Esteemed Galoots, Here is the FS list for Adria saws for May. They can be seen on the following page: http://www.adriatools.com/handsaw/ Dovetail saw - legendary saw that made the reputation for Adria Toolworks. Guaranteed to cut fast and straight out of the box. It comes with beautiful Bubinga handle that fits your hand like a glove. See my testimonials page to understand why people love Adria dovetail saws. Price: $115 Small tenon saw - 12" long, floats through wood, pleasure to use. Comes as rip or crosscut. Use it for smaller joinery tasks. Bubinga handle, same as on the dovetail saw. Price: $125 Large tenon saw - 14" long, knows no obstacles, use it for larger joinery tasks. Available as rip or crosscut. Beautiful Bubinga handle. Price: $150 To see why people love my saws, please take a look at the testimonials page on my web site: http://www.adriatools.com/handsaw/testimonials.html Don't hesitate if you need a good quality saw - order one today. Thanks for reading this far and special thanks to all users of my saws, I appreciate your support! Eddie Sirotich Adria Toolworks Inc. - High Quality Dovetail and Tenon saws http://www.AdriaTools.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 132999 ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-05-03 20:57:34 Subject: re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing Send photos or post em up, especially of the mouth of the plane. I've only = started to get this hand planing business myself, I think I can make a decent = edge with scary sharp, some blades will take ALL the hair off my arm, others a = bit tougher, haven't figured that one out yet. I've only planed a piece of pine for fun with my no 6, but I got long single = piece curlies after the initial skip planing and I thought the surface was = excellent. My board was qutie dry from being in the garage for a number of = months/years, however. I have read that pine tends to tear and fuzz rather = than cut because it is soft. You might try a piece of red oak to play on. Are you getting any chatter? Alan Epson Inkjet Printer FAQ: http://welcome.to/epson-inkjet ---- Start of Message 133000 ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-05-03 20:56:06 Subject: Re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing On 4 May 2004 at 0:44, Bryan Lloyd wrote: > Sharpening I spent yesterday teaching another session of my sharpening class at the local Woodcraft. This is a three hour class, which usually works out to me talking for an hour and a half, interspersed with demonstrations, a ten or fifteen minute break, and the rest of the time spent working one-on-one with the attendees. There were only two students this time, so it took a bit less time than the last one. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I can't compress an hour and a half lecture into an email, so if you have the opportunity to take a class, do it. Meanwhile, I'll try to address your questions. You don't, by the way, seem way off the mark here. > 1. I wasn't sure how far I should go with flattening the back. How > can I tell that the back is flat enough so that the cutting edge > will be as sharp as possible when you finish honing the bevel? The > iron was in pretty good condition (no nicks or damage) to start > with. One of the first things I do is go through a good deal of sharpening philosophy. Without dragging everyone else down by my opinions, I do try to set people's expectations at a reasonable level. You are not ever going to go from "Where do I begin" to "I can do a perfect job" in one step. What's going to happen is that you are going to keep doing this and keep getting better. At any point (at least for the first few years), you're going to take down a tool you put away sharp six months ago and say "How could I ever have thought this was sharp?" That's because you will have learned to do a better job after six months of sharpening your tools on an as-needed basis. Your skills will keep improving. It's not just the first six months that this happens, it's _every_ six months for a good long time. By practice, you will continually improve. Yes, the curve eventually flattens out a bit, but not for a while. That said, one of the first "post-philosophy" things I go over is why you need a mirror finish. Long discussions of what happens when a scratch (even a small one) reaches the arris of the edge tool. Why the resulting small hole is a weak point where crumbling is going to take place as the tool is used, especially if it does something stressful like hitting a knot. That sort of thing. But if you really have, say, the back in a mirror finish "count the nose hairs" state for the first quarter inch or so back from the edge, that's probably fine for most edge tools. > 2. I went through a lot of sandpaper to hone the bevel. It seemed > like the silicon carbide paper (from Klingspor) lost some of its > sanding ability after only 10 strokes or so. Is this normal? I went through scary-sharp for a while and ended back at waterstones with a nice leather strop charged with 10,000 grit oxide. So I can't really address why your paper is falling apart, but any honing material (water or oil stones, sandpaper) is going to break down over time as the particles come loose from the bonding. This is a good thing with water stones, as you are always getting new particles in play. Not so with sandpaper which needs to be replaced. But it's hard to believe one plane iron would wear it out. > 3. In general, I guess it plane iron was sharp but not as sharp as > some folks have indicated is possible with Scary Sharp. It would > shave paper and some hairs on my arm, but it wasn't exactly a > knife through butter. My problem is, I am not sure what I could > improve upon with the sharpening or if my expectations were too high. I proceeded until I got a mirror finish on the back and on the bevel, and I did add a 1 degree micro bevel. One test that I teach (for safety reasons, I don't want anyone planing their arms in Woodcraft's classrooms) is that you should be able to take a good shaving from end grain of some hardwood - I usually use cherry when I remember it. If you can do that, you've done a decent job. Shaves hairs? Mirror finish? Cuts paper cleanly? I'm not sure what you are expecting that's better than that. It sounds pretty good to me. > > Planing > 1. I cleaned and tuned a Stanley #5 and used it on the legs of the > workbench. The result I think were good but not great. The surface > does look much improved over the rough original condition. > However, there were some little depressions from the wood grain > that did not smooth away with the planing. Also, I could still feel some roughness with my finger if I touch the wood surface. Could this reflect my need to improve sharpening and planing or might it have to do with the quality of the wood I was using. Even a properly sharpened plane iron will produce some tearout with improper technique or on difficult wood. It's just too hard to do any analysis without being in your shop. I am assuming you are paying good attention to the grain direction and always planing with the grain rising, yes? Also, it may just be that this particular plane is not set up right. I have a dozen bench planes (at least) and there's one that's almost impossible to get set up right no matter how sharp the iron is or how it's adjusted. I keep playing with it, but I often just say "the heck with it" and grab another plane. It's bothersome that it's beating me, but I can live with it. Do you have this problem with all your planes or just this one? > 2. As I planed a 3 foot long and 3 1/2 inch wide surface, it seemed > like there were times that the plane would not take a full length > shaving as if it wasn't getting any flatter with successive > strokes. I would sometimes take a shaving in the beginning and end > of the stroke, but not in the middle of the surface, and I couldn't figure out why this was happening. The first thing that comes to mind is that a jack is not a jointer, and you may need to check the edge you are planing with a good straight edge to see how far away from straight it is. Once it has been jointed, it should be easier to take a full length shaving, but every plane has its use (another course I'm putting together) and I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with a jack here. > 3. As I planed a surface, I would change the blade depth slightly > between when I wanted to flatten the surface and take off high > spots to when I needed to take lighter shavings. Also, I felt it > much harder to push the plane the length of the piece when it was > flat enough to take a full length shaving. Is this normal? As noted above, a jack is not a jointer. Neither is it a smoother. This is not just the SGFH talking here - you really need different planes for different jobs. When I started, I had a modern (blue) Stanley jack plane that I did everything with. It didn't take me long to realize that no matter how I adjusted it to make it do all the jobs, it was never going to be very good at being anything other than a jack plane. It was way too short for jointing, and couldn't really be tuned enough to make a decent smoother (and it was a bit long for that as well). You can get by with it for a while, but when people talk about the glass smooth surfaces that they are achieving with their planes, it's not a jack plane they are talking about. Hope I'm not assuming too much here about what you are doing, just the impression I am getting from your post. > 4. I have heard that you can get a surface nicer with planing than > with sanding. Granted, I was not trying to go this far for this > project, but the planed surfaces did feel rougher than things I > have sanded in the past. Should I expect a glass-like finish with > 2x4 pine from a home store? Perhaps not, but like I used to tell kids in dangerous places (like china shops), look with your eyes, not with your fingers. One of the ways in which the surface is nicer when planed is that you are slicing cleanly through the wood fibers with a sharp edge, not abrading the heck out of it and filling in the pores with fine dust. A sanded surface will feel nice, especially since it's got talcum powder- like dust all over it when you finish sanding. It just won't look as good as a planed surface. A planed surface has a depth to it that you can see. That said, a planed surface on something like walnut feels pretty darned good if your iron is sharp. > 4. In general, the planing was a little harder than I expected. Is > there a rule of thumb for how it should "feel"? It should feel as good as the most sensual thing you do. OK, maybe not, but some people seem to think making shavings is pretty hot stuff. (I'm trying to avoid any terms that will get this kicked out by spam filters here.) No, there isn't a rule of thumb as to how it should feel. Too subjective. But you should be enjoying it. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 133001 ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-05-03 21:28:08 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought On 3 May 2004 at 21:50, Michael D. Sullivan wrote: > My impression has always been that "deal" refers to pine and its rough > equivalents -- in current US lumber-speak, that would be SPF > (spruce-pine-fir). Perhaps the red and white deal referred to early > in the century drew a distinction between the harder, more > orange-colored southern yellow pine and ordinary white pine? > Or perhaps pine vs. hemlock? People keep kicking this around, so I feel compelled to cite a reference here - Paul Hasluck's The Handyman's Book, which I just finished reading. This may reflect only the terms as understood in 1903 in the UK, or Mr. Hasluck may not be correct. But he seems to know what he's about in other respects. And the term "deal" is more commonly used in the UK. One reference is not much of a database, but here goes: Baltic Red or Yellow Deal This timber, produced by the Scotch fir, more precisely called the Scots pine (Pinus sylvestris) is more largely used than any kind. It is commonly known as Northern pine... Yellow deal is of a honey- yellow colour, and timber from the same kind of tree, but slightly different in colour, is known in some parts of the country as red deal. Spruce Fir or White Deal This wood is known as white deal, white fir, spruce fir, and spruce deal... It is produced by the Pinus excelsa, which grows in the same districts as the Pinus sylvestris. American Whitewood or Basswood Basswood is one of the many names supplied to the wood of the Liriodendron tulipfera... In the London market, the wood is better known as American poplar, yellow poplar, canary wood .... or American whitewood, and it would be described as such in the lists. There's more but you get the idea. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 133002 ---- From: tomthornton Date: 2004-05-04 01:06:36 Subject: zap tank vs acid I no longer keep any dangerous or flammable materials around Nothing has happened but I don't believe in pushing my luck The last time I used any kind of acid was to try and clean a tile floor, one minute nothing happened the next it ate all the grout out twas totally uncontrollable All the zap tank makes is soap and grit and I can shut it off anytime But I have no objection to others trying things, that's how one learns, -- Tom Thornton Cincinnati #3, Morristown N.J. USA Collector of old tools, specializing in Hand Cranked Grindstones ---- Start of Message 133003 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-05-03 22:44:55 Subject: Re: zap tank vs acid --- tomthornton wrote: The last time I used any kind of acid was to try and clean a tile floor, one minute nothing happened the next it ate all the grout out... Hi Tom-- This is a problem with tile floors---the grout usually is sealed with an oil (or plastic or wax), something which acid won't readily dissolve; acid reacts STRONGLY with the grout, however, so once you get the acid mixture strong enough to dissolve the sealer, you're ready to re-grout. It's best to remove the sealer by dosing and scrubbing the floor with straight household ammonia, if you can ventilate sufficiently to do that, then rinse with plenty of clean water, THEN acid wash. At least, it's worked for me in the past. The acid should be strong enough to sting your tongue, like salad vinegar. If it causes your tongue to smoke, or fall off, it's too strong. I use hydro-CHLORIC acid to clean tile and brick faces of mortar and cement haze---according to some porch pundit, hydro-FLOURIC acid is so toxic that just reading about it can cause blood to pour out from under your fingernails. I wouldn't use THAT, without checking the library, or the label on the can, or something. Tiles and grouts are the products of old technologies, worked mostly by hand. best to all galoots, everywhere; GAM in Seattle __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 133004 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-05-04 07:48:16 Subject: RE: Need to learn how to hand plane twist out of a board : -----Original Message----- : From: Alan Womack [mailto:arwbackup@w...] : Sent: 03 May 2004 14:55 : To: oldtools : Subject: re: [oldtools] Need to learn how to hand plane twist out of a : board : : How does one decide which face to work over first? Are you : looking for a convex face first and scrubing down the board : from there? A bench plane will always cut the entire length of a convex surface, but will only snip the ends of a concave surface until the surface is flat (though a slight concavity is always possible). Hence, shim the convex underside. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 133005 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-05-04 07:48:15 Subject: RE: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought : -----Original Message----- : From: Rex Wilson [mailto:luddite@t...] : Sent: 03 May 2004 14:55 : To: oldtools : Subject: RE: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - : clarification sought Salutations! : By the way, in my turn of the century woodworking books, the : British writers refer to a wood which they call American Deal : (red and white). Any heads up on this common name? Would : "American Deal" be a good wood for the battleship glide test? Wood - GS Boulger - 1902 - Deal, a term properly describing soft (coniferous) wood sawn in thicknesses of 2 - 4in, but often used with prefixes as to colour or country of origin. Thus Danzic, Red or Yellow Deals are derived from the Northern Pine (Pinsu sylbestris L.0 White Deals from the Spruce (Pinus Excelsa), Canadian and New Brunswick Spruce Deals, mostly from Picea nigra, narrow-ringed trees yelding "Black," wide-ringed ones "White Spruce". So, a Deal is a dimension, if something as wide-ranging can be a dimension. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 133006 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-04 02:52:48 Subject: Re: American White Wood was The Gorman-Grandstaff Speaking of quick growing trees what do you think of this marketing of Lyptus? It's basically a cross between two Eucalyptus (?) trees and it grows very much like what you describe in your last sentence. Like bamboo it grows from the root shoots. So they never even have to replant, just harvest and a new one grows in its place. They're trying to really lay on the marketing and get it to be a hardwood replacement. From what I have read of the charts it looks good except it has quite a bit of difficulty drying and requires special methods there. The look is nice, fairly similar to mahogany overall, though its appearance can vary with different finishing methods. I understand most of it is being grown in south America. I'm aware of the agricultural reality of trees. I've even done my share of cloning plant matter. I've read a few articles on doing the hybrid grafts where you can have 7 kinds of cherries coming off of one tree. I actually have a few fruit trees like this I planted though I bought them, I did not graft them myself. Speaking of high grow rates it is kind of funny to see bamboo flooring start to become a thing here. Orientals use it because it is basically a weed all around them and now we are paying high prices for it because it is "exotic". heh, go figure.... > [Original Message] > From: Larry Marshall > To: oldtools > Date: 5/3/2004 9:34:04 PM This, in fact, is one of > the reasons it's such an oft-used wood. The other reason is their > incredible growth rates. The Finns have large plantations of the > stuff that they use in energy generation. The species they > cultivate grows like bamboo, thin little sticks that grow like > weeds. ---- Start of Message 133007 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-05-04 09:42:41 Subject: Re: Turned a bud vase Jim Thompson wrote: > I have been itching to turn a bud vase ever since I received the one > done by Richard Wilson. Today SWMBO is on jury duty and I found a > suitable piece of Apricot wood in my future somethings pile, and so I > says to myself, I says, "Self, you need to get out to the shop and turn > a bud vase!" And sure enough, about 2 hours later I had me a bud vase > that SWMBO is gonna be proud of. Nice work - is the lathe treadle, pole, or great wheel? BugBear ---- Start of Message 133008 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-05-04 10:47:31 Subject: Re: Curing Beech Chris has some sick beech which needs curing (awful pun). . . >I have been cutting the wood about 11" long, 4" high and 1" to 3" thick (all >quarter sawn). Of course I can coat the ends and air dry it for 2 - 5 years, >but I want to take Todd's course this summer, and would use some of this >Beech if possible. >So, my question is how might I (who does not own a kiln) go about drying >some of this stock in a more rapid manner=3F I had and have a similar problem with some large beech which I acquired a couple years ago. You've already given yourself a headstart by cutting to smaller 1/4 sawn blanks. Given that these have been cut to be stable, then you'll be very unlucky to get checking at these dimensions in beech. The standard answer is to place in a stack where the wind can blow and the sun is excluded and wait. Nowadays we can't wait, so you could try a solar kiln - do a search to discover something like a plastic polytunnel which will lift the temperature using solar gain, and equipped with some ventilation to keep the humidity low enough to avoid mould growth. You need the heat to get the sap to migrate, and you need humidity to control the moisture gradient through the timber. The moisture gradient can be regarded as a measure of the cell size - cells full of sap take up more space, empty cells shrink. When you have lots of empty, small cells on the outside, and big fat full cells on the inside, something has to give. As with your oven experiment in an oven, the result is checking. Better to boil the wood, which lifts the temperature and by expanding the sap on the interior, makes it leave home and extrude out. Being surrounded in boiling water, the outer cells don't exhibit a tendency to shrink until later. If you boil long and hard, then when you remove the timber, the inner cells will reduce back to less than before. I've successfully boiled some awkward oak - gave it about an hour on a rolling boil for a blank which is about 5 diameter. After lifting it out, I let it dry in a paper bag for a few weeks, turning the bag inside out regularly (whenever I remembered) at first. Worked fine. Microwaving is a bit more exciting, and less guaranteed of success on large work. I doubt you could microwave a blank 3 thick succesfully without generating checks on the outer surface - you need the 'dep heat' of a long boil to do that. Be aware that the colour will/may alter from white to pink - as with kilned beech. as a footnote - I had a lump of beech about 20" cube - put my back out unloading it, which I was obliged to leave to air dry - it checked, and I split it into about 3, and left it. One of those lumps is nor about 20 x 8 x 6 and looks stable enough to be a beetle head. Let us know how it works out ! Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot Chris Berger 03/05/04 23:04 Please respond to Chris Berger To: "oldtools" cc: Subject: [oldtools] Curing Beech Hi All Well, I got a little lucky last week and came across a large Beech tree coming down (Actually already bucked up). Lot of firewood, but a lot of quarter sawn stock for planes. I am using petrol molecules and some electrons (Yes, I am ashamed. I'll polish the spittoon later, but right now I just want to get it cut up and drying before I loose it to checking.) Thanks in advance. Chris PS: My kitchen oven's lowest temp is 170 deg F. I tried a piece in it and within two hours it was developing some nasty checks. ---- Start of Message 133009 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-05-04 11:03:57 Subject: Re: Turned a bud vase Jim and John are stealing my patent not applied for design. . . Jim >I have been itching to turn a bud vase ever since I received John >Ever since I saw that picture of Richard's Bud Vase I have been thinking >the same thing and with mother's day coming up it seems an especially >fitting project. What kind of finish did you put on that, Jim=3F Cant speak for Jim, but my standard finish for these things is to use abrasives down to 600 grit, a coat of sanding sealer, and then carnauba wax applied from the stick. The result is a high gloss which is reasonably durable - given its purpose, and can be looked after with an application of paste beeswax and buffed on a soft cloth. An alternative, and especially possible on an item of this shape and size, is to move to a pad applied clear shellac after the sealer, which improves the durability and imparts an equally high gloss. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman woodturner --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 133010 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-05-04 06:53:31 Subject: Re: Good weekend I was driving by my favourite flea market on Friday and decided to pop in and see what might be found. This market is mainly on Saturday and Sunday, but there are a few sellers on Fridays. I found a nice Atkins No. 76? ripsaw with apple handle, with an etch that reads, beside the normal Atkins part, "Made for Maison, Jean, Paquette, Montreal". I went back to the market on Saturday and came home with a lipped shipwright's adze complete with handle, a 4" broad hatchet with broken handle, an S.D.A.Co.,Galt No.10 saw set and a 1-1/2" Berg butt chisel, minus the handle. Total outlay, about 20 $US. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 133011 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-04 06:14:12 Subject: RE: Curing Beech Here's one link: http://theoak.com/solar/index.html > [Original Message] > From: Chris Berger > > So, my question is how might I (who does not own a kiln) go about drying > some of this stock in a more rapid manner? > > Thanks in advance. > > Chris ---- Start of Message 133012 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-05-04 07:33:59 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought > American Whitewood or Basswood > > Basswood is one of the many names supplied to the wood of the > Liriodendron tulipfera... In the London market, the wood is > better known as American poplar, yellow poplar, canary wood .... > or American whitewood, and it would be described as such in the > lists. This is the interesting one to me, Ken, as it explains the confusion over it being a poplar. Sort of like the "sycamore" dichotomy we discovered between oceans, the common names don't translate well across the pond. The interesting thing is that you'll often hear British woodcarvers call it lindon. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 133013 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-04 06:48:46 Subject: Re: Turned a bud vase Already stolen. I made one last night pretty much the same design as yours except with a little detail ring near the bottom. (I'm not sure what to call it? I stuck a 1/16 inch parting tool straight in to make a groove just to break up the roundness near the bottom) I, too, sanded to about 600 grit. I used Watco Golden Oak and followed that with BLO. I'll probably put a coat of wax on that after giving it a few more coats of BLO. I managed one continous shaving of about 5-6 feet long. So, Richard, do you believe in burnishing turnings? I have seen Saint Roy and his guests use this technique where they simply pick up a handful of shavings and hold it to the wood until the friction builds up. It seems to do nearly the same thing your sanding sealer does. It seals the pores and darkens the tone on the grain ever so slightly. It also imparts a slight sheen to the wood. I've seen carvers use this technique using shavings or even a corn broom on very large pieces. I like the results. I feel it makes the finishing even more consistent from there on out. > [Original Message] > From: > To: oldtools > Cc: oldtools > Date: 5/4/2004 5:03:49 AM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] Turned a bud vase > > Jim and John are stealing my patent not applied for design. . . > > Jim > >I have been itching to turn a bud vase ever since I received > John > >Ever since I saw that picture of Richard's Bud Vase I have been thinking > >the same thing and with mother's day coming up it seems an especially > >fitting project. What kind of finish did you put on that, Jim? > > > Cant speak for Jim, but my standard finish for these things is to use > abrasives down to 600 grit, a coat of sanding sealer, and then carnauba > wax applied from the stick. The result is a high gloss which is > reasonably durable - given its purpose, and can be looked after with an > application of paste beeswax and buffed on a soft cloth. > > An alternative, and especially possible on an item of this shape and size, > is to move to a pad applied clear shellac after the sealer, which improves > the durability and imparts an equally high gloss. > > > Richard Wilson > Yorkshireman woodturner > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website > at www.salvesen.com. > > The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and > for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged > and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, > use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended > recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this > message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return > e-mail. > > Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to > ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. > However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a > result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your > own virus checks before opening any attachment. > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 133014 ---- From: "M.Stadulis" Date: 2004-05-04 07:55:51 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought Just to keep things headed straight, basswood and tulip poplar are not the same tree, nor even the same genus. Basswood is Tilia cordate (American Linden) and Tulip poplar or yellow poplar, as most call it, is Liriodendron tulipifera. Basswood is noticeably less dense than yellow poplar. Regards, Michael Stadulis Gloucester County, New Jersey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Marshall" To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [oldtools] The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought > > > American Whitewood or Basswood > > > > Basswood is one of the many names supplied to the wood of the > > Liriodendron tulipfera... In the London market, the wood is > > better known as American poplar, yellow poplar, canary wood .... > > or American whitewood, and it would be described as such in the > > lists. > > This is the interesting one to me, Ken, as it explains the confusion > over it being a poplar. Sort of like the "sycamore" dichotomy we > discovered between oceans, the common names don't translate well > across the pond. The interesting thing is that you'll often hear > British woodcarvers call it lindon. > > > -- > Cheers --- Larry Marshall > Quebec City, QC > http://www.woodnbits.com > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 133015 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-05-04 08:16:06 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought > Just to keep things headed straight, basswood and tulip poplar > are not the same tree, nor even the same genus. Basswood is Exactly what I said in my recent msg about these species. Maybe you missed it. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 133016 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-05-04 13:24:52 Subject: Lime/Lindon Basswood Tulip etc - was Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions Larry (and others) are valiently trying to keep us genus - challenged on the top of the precipice. . . >> American Whitewood or Basswood >> >> Basswood is one of the many names supplied to the wood of the >> Liriodendron tulipfera... In the London market, the wood is >> better known as American poplar, yellow poplar, canary wood .... >> or American whitewood, and it would be described as such in the >> lists.> > >This is the interesting one to me, Ken, as it explains the confusion >over it being a poplar. Sort of like the "sycamore" dichotomy we >discovered between oceans, the common names don't translate well >across the pond. The interesting thing is that you'll often hear >British woodcarvers call it lindon. But on the original side of the pond, I would call a lime tree a 'linden' but normally its referred to as being lime. I have a vague thought that those of you 'over there' call it basswood, and that name is increasingly seen amongst the lists of imported stuff for modelmakers etc. Confused in Northants Richard Wilson Who can usually tell a Quercus when he sees it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 133017 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-05-04 13:51:52 Subject: Re: Admitting it is the first step: saw problem Clif did the unthinkable . . . . after a stupendous chunk of carefully nurtured luck, he spoils it by. . >In a small lapse of judgement, I laid it all out neatly in the garage - rust >completely covered one bay of the garage. When LOML came out, she was a bit >surprised. We daren't even place it in the FAQ, Clif, in case it's discovered later and brought out in evidence, but let me whisper it to you - (glances over shoulder) over here in the corner. . . .. .. .. "We never, ever, line up all the tools in one place. It's just too scary. If SWMBO or the MIL stumbled in, or got pictures, then disastrous things can happen. It could be anything - withdrawal of Saturday rust hunt privileges, absence of Apple crumbles - put on dishwashing duties for months, or (and this can be the worst - *being accompanied* ) Of course, there are those who can tough it out - like Bob Nelson, and a few others, and sometimes its *not being accompanied* that's meted out. The penalty is always made to fit. You were lucky this time - sale coming up next week, it sounds like you were able to use the No27 *stock for trading* evasive tactic. Phew - that's one lucky Galoot. Richard Wilson A Galoot who cultivates his short term memory loss where tools are concerned. . . --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 133018 ---- From: Clif Palmberg Date: 2004-05-04 05:59:29 Subject: Re: Admitting it is the first step: saw problem --- Richard.Wilson@s... wrote: > "We never, ever, line up all the tools in one place. It's just too scary. > If SWMBO or the MIL stumbled in, or got pictures, then disastrous things > can happen. It could be anything - withdrawal of Saturday rust hunt > privileges, absence of Apple crumbles - put on dishwashing duties for > months, or (and this can be the worst - *being accompanied* ) > Of course, there are those who can tough it out - like Bob Nelson, and a > few others, and sometimes its *not being accompanied* that's meted out. > The penalty is always made to fit. > > > You were lucky this time - sale coming up next week, it sounds like you > were able to use the No27 *stock for trading* evasive tactic. Rookie mistake, I'll never do that again. At some point I need to stop tinkering with my pile of saws, which completely cover my secondary bench, and build a sawtill. I think taking the time to build doors for wherever a galoot stores his hunting trophies is quite possibly the best time spent. -Clif in Dallas ===== I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set it free. -Michelangelo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 133019 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-05-04 14:28:32 Subject: Bodging Day - June 13th Probably for UK folk. . . Pepper Wood will be bodging on June 13th. Fettling up the greenwood devices - pole lethes, shave horses, completing an oak framed bench, making a wooden face vice for it if time allows, General air of relaxation and bonhomie. Any galoots or proto galoots would be welcome - from about 9:30 'til we all go home, to the Nailer's Arms, get bored, or we can't see any longer. Location is somewhere buried at www.pepperwood.info or contact me. Richard Wilson Lots of affiliation, blah blah blah. . . . --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 133020 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-05-04 09:54:10 Subject: cranky planes (was First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing) >I have a dozen bench planes (at least) and there's >one that's almost impossible to get set up right no matter how >sharp the iron is or how it's adjusted. I keep playing with it, but >I often just say "the heck with it" and grab another plane. It's >bothersome that it's beating me, but I can live with it. Has anbody else encountered the cranky plane? ya know, that rust barrel Stanley that just won't perform like they say in the catalogs. Conversely, I have a rust barrel #6 that I reserected and I couldn't be more pleased with it's resulting perforamnce (It looks good to). But I do have a cranky Clifton smoother. I kept on fooling with it, and finally got it to perform, although it will never be a fine smoother it is very serviceable as a rough smoother and general bench plane. Because when I'd mess with it, I'd work over several different things, I'm not sure what finally did the trick, or a combination thereof. Another obsevation - the planes that I have fettled that the lateral adjusting lever was not attached perform very well. I attribute this to being able to lap both the frog bottom and where the blade beds without obstruction. The blade sits down perfectly flat. I also use flat stock with sandpaper wrapped around it to work on the bed. Hock improved chip breakers are really good for this (bedrock style). Any further observations on this topic? regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 133021 ---- From: "Arthur Bailey" Date: 2004-05-04 09:53:42 Subject: Re: zap tank vs acid Galoots- I had been swearing by vinegar as a rust remover some time back, until I left the lever cap wrapped too long in a vinegar saturated paper towel. The texture pattern of the paper towel is now etched into the lever cap. Looks kinda cool, but not what I had intended. Now, I stick to mechanical means of rust removal like steel wool and razor blades. If I had a big job to do, I guess I'd choose the zap tank, but I've been putting off those big jobs since I moved. Art Bailey Queens, NY ---- Start of Message 133022 ---- From: Al Perreault Date: 2004-05-04 09:57:02 Subject: Re: Admitting it is the first step: saw problem > > I think taking the time to build doors for wherever a galoot stores > his hunting trophies is quite possibly the best time spent. > > -Clif in Dallas > Clif, Doors are good. Doors with locks, are even better. I use the excuse, that I don't want the children to hurt themselves, when I'm not there. SWMBO is a nurse who worked a long time on the Trauma Floor in a large hospital. When I play the "Possible Injury Card", it goes a long way. There is also a benefit to having someone around the house who is skilled at stopping excessive bleeding. DAMHIKT. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, MA ---- Start of Message 133023 ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 2004-05-04 10:10:55 Subject: RE: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought At 07:48 AM 5/4/2004 +0100, Jeff Gorman wrote: >Wood - GS Boulger - 1902 - Deal, a term properly describing soft >(coniferous) wood sawn in thicknesses of 2 - 4in, but often used with >prefixes as to colour or country of origin. Thus Danzic, Red or Yellow >Deals are derived from the Northern Pine (Pinsu sylbestris L.0 White >Deals from the Spruce (Pinus Excelsa), Canadian and New Brunswick Spruce >Deals, mostly from Picea nigra, narrow-ringed trees yelding "Black," >wide-ringed ones "White Spruce". > >So, a Deal is a dimension, if something as wide-ranging can be a >dimension. Sounds like "Deal" is a synonym for what Americans call "dimension lumber", usually grade-stamped, usually also stamped "SPF" ( for Spruce-Pine-Fir ), the key similarity being that rather than knowing, or even caring about, the species of the tree from which an individual piece of lumber devolved, we refer to it strictly by its nominal size, i.e., 2x4 (inches), 1x2, 2x10, 4x6, etc. "Deal" has an exotic ring to it, but it's kind of like opening a bag of "crisps" and finding potato chips inside. Somebody suggested that "Deal" be used for Gorman-Grandstaff, but it is pretty hard to imagine maintaining any self-sustaining-planing across the knot riddled drek that is dimension lumber stateside. And burying the identity of a donor like Douglas Fir, from which a more costly and clear dimension lumber is also cut, under a generic label like "dimension lumber" or even "deal" seems disrespectful. ---- Start of Message 133024 ---- From: Steven Longley Date: 2004-05-04 07:41:54 Subject: Re: [OldTools] Admitting it is the first step: saw problem Clif said:   > . . . I'll convince I need every last one of them. > (My family is having an auction next week, the ones > that aren't keepers are going there.). . . Clif, where's the auction being held? Steve in Dallas Lets just say... "I need some additional sharpening practice." ---- Start of Message 133025 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-05-04 07:46:46 Subject: Re: cranky planes (was First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing) >>one that's almost impossible to get set up right no matter >> > I'd work over several >different things, I'm not sure what finally did the trick > I recon it was before the archives started, so I'll tell it again. I asked this same question once upon a time. Got several answers, of course, this -is- the porch. 8^) But the main thing??? Flatten your soul! Frogs can be wobbly or warped and of course there's that, and a blade can be bent and there's that, (you've already looked at these and taken care of it) but most times if you can't get it to adjust properly and especially if it's no cut, adjust slightly, no cut, adjust slightly, then hog chips and tearout....... it's because the sole of the plane is a bit concave over it's length. Flat out, rocks! yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 133026 ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 2004-05-04 10:47:35 Subject: LODI Dividers? What is the significance of the marking "LODI" on dividers? I have a divider made by the William Schollhorn Company of New Haven, so marked. A web searched led to: http://www.rostratool.com/historical.asp (click on "historical pliers pictorial") and to the inventor of the two patents marked on the divider: http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctnhvbio/Bernard_William_A.html No mention of the meaning of the LODI marking. Does anyone know? Regards, Steve - trying to get the melancholy refrain "Oh Lord, stuck in Lodi again" out of his head. ---- Start of Message 133027 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-05-04 08:02:13 Subject: Re: Curing Beech For just a few plane bodies, boil it! I've boiled wood lots of times over the years with great results. Several species that are very defect prone too and little to no problems. Plunk it down in a pot of boiling water and simmer an hour per inch of thickness. Pull it out and lay it aside. Go to the next one. Or build a larger tank (1/2 an old hot water heater works well), build a fire underneath, and do them wholesale. You just want some room between the pieces, is my point. I've heard the brown paper bag afterward thing mentioned many times, but I was boiling wood without the benefit of this trick a long time before it was invented, so I can say it's not completely necessary in my experience. I turned a local guy onto this and he's been making benches and shelves and racks out of green pole and limb wood for a while now to sell and hardly any defects at all. And let me tell ya, poles split handled any other way! Nothing harder to cure than a pole. If you do it now, by the time the class comes up you could have a few that were sitting around long enough to be sure there was not going to be any misbehavior from your stock. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 133028 ---- From: Steve Knight Date: 2004-05-04 08:03:56 Subject: FS lots of tools 30.00 Off planes of all sorts. You can now buy my planes through Amazon. I don't have them all up yet though. But you can pay with a credit card. Pay the full price and I will refund the 31.00 I can't do coupons. Knight Toolworks in conjunction with Harrolson at www.japanesetools.com have had these custom made Japanese irons made for western planes. These are the first and only hand forged/laminated Japanese irons that will fit a regular wedged plane. They are 2" wide and 5.25" long and are a bit over ¼" thick. They will drop into any knight Toolworks plane that uses a 2" iron with just a little mouth and wedge adjustment. They are made from blue steel (holds and edge longer then pretty much any tool steel on the market) and wrought iron. I believe these to be the best irons out there over O-1 and A-2 irons. They will hold an edge longer then A-2 they will get sharper they will leave a deeper/cleaner surface and they make the plane easier to use. They will really help with tearout too. They are hand stamped with Shizu Tani (tranquil valley) Shipping is 5.00 including insurance. http://www.knight-toolworks.com/web_temp_pics/jironcoffin.jpg http://www.knight-toolworks.com/graphics/japaneseupgradeirons.jpg All planes now have finger grips and brass set screws to adjust the fit of the iron. Rock maple Purpleheart Cocobolo at an extra cost is also available. Padouk Please check my page for all my planes www.knight-toolworks.com I also have razee jointers and jack planes and scrubs. http://www.knight-toolworks.com/wooden.htm I have great looking/feeling coffin smoothers http://www.knight-toolworks.com/graphics/coffin.jpg All planes now have setscrews to center the irons in the body and make adjusting the iron easy. All planes are sanded/planed and finished with a special oil and wax finish. -- Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions. ---- Start of Message 133029 ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-05-04 08:19:58 Subject: re: Jeff should write a book WAS Need to learn how to hand plane twist out of a Jeff: Have you considered fleshing out your articles that you have = written/accumulated over the years into a book? Seriously, with photos, more examples, and some more elaboration you would have = an excellent book. I've been through several handplane books and your site has = more than the lot of them thus far. They all have talked about winding sticks and planing off the high parts, but = don't go into detail on what that means. To me it means short strokes over the = high spot till it quicks rocking, and finding that high spot is not just so = easy for me yet. I found my "reference" surface may not be so good. I ended up using a 1" think = piece of MDF and the piece rocked a whole lots less and was easier to figure = out how to make it flat. Makes me wonder about the other surface(s) now.. Alan ---- Start of Message 133030 ---- From: Kirk Eppler Date: 2004-05-04 08:21:10 Subject: Re: LODI Dividers? Not really feeling like working, I tried a few shots. A dogpile search turned up a link, but it has been updated http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/search/web/lodi%2Bschollhorn Pointed to Schollhorn Lodi Spring Punch pliers http://pages.tonistreasures.com/showcase?in=Tools&page=6 which no longer mentions Lodi or schollhorn But, searching on Schollhorn on that page shows 4 different patented tools, two for parallel jawed cutters, none of which mention Lodi http://search.tias.com/cgi-bin/altavista.fcgi?database=%2Faltavista%2F- stores%2Fitems&max=50&noResultPageTemplate=NoResultPage2.html&resultPa- geTemplate=ResultPage2.html&resultItemTemplate=CatResultItem.txt&resul- tTableTemplate=CatResultTable2.txt&itemResultPageTemplate=ResultPage.h- tml&itemResultItemTemplate=ResultItem2.txt&itemResultTableTemplate=Res- ultTable.txt&itemDatabase=%2Faltavista%2Fstores%2Fitems&bothSearch=1&p- rimaryServer=&minPrice=1&searchText=schollhorn&matchAll=1&Search.x=23&- Search.y=23 Datamp has nothing on Schollhorn, nor anything on the patent dates listed 5/6/1890, 10/24/1899 and 7/19/1892 credited to Bernard, only a sawset on 12/11/1894, but possibly the same guy Ebay turns up http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3286508794 Steve Reynolds wrote: > What is the significance of the marking "LODI" on dividers? > > I have a divider made by the William Schollhorn Company of New Haven, > so marked. > Oh well, dinking time is over, back to work now. -- Kirk Eppler, feeling foolish for missing Steve's tagline the first time I responded, fortunately privately Process Development Engineering Eppler.Kirk@g... ---- Start of Message 133031 ---- From: hunter.cox@i... Date: 2004-05-04 11:33:17 Subject: Re: Curing Beech what is the deal with "steamed beech", vs Boiled? I assume that the idea is the same as boiling, is there some reason that you see steamed beech referenced and not boiled? is it just that it is an easier process than boiling - I would guess that they have a huge room sealed off and fill it with steam for a while, same effect as boiling it. I have a turkey fryer that I was going to make a steam box for bending with, it seems like I might be able to use the same box for steaming beech? anyone have any experience or suggestions on that? I got a chunk of beech that was going to be firewood, it has been sitting there waiting for me to figure out what to do with it - sounds like cutting it up and boiling it would get things moving along. Hunter in Richmond ---- Start of Message 133032 ---- From: "Eduardo De Diego" Date: 2004-05-04 11:43:05 Subject: Restoring Stanley #26 Jack Plane Patient Coach required for a GIT I am rescuing (I can hear some of you wailing already about the unwashed being allowed to fondle the tools...) a Stanley transitional jack plane #26 that suffered from acute neglect by persons unknown. (the usual suspects were rounded up but to no avail..) The plane will be given to a user as a gift. DISCLAIMER: Assume I know nothing about planes (as you will discover soon enough...........) It has had an additional (replacement) sole added with about 40+ wooden pegs slightly larger than toothpicks, set in three rows. The pegs seem hand-carved (whittled). Several hours of following links on the net have given me plenty on restoring the Japanned metal, but precious little on how to restore the wood, other than the use of shellac as a finish. I will be buying a new blade to replace the original which has fared poorly over time. I will allow the recipient of the plane the unmitigated pleasure of tuning it, since such arcane skills are beyond this proto Galoot. It may be faster if someone just points me to a web link with this information; The questions are; >Carving and replacing lost pegs; should these be glued in place? >If not glued, how should I correct shrinkage in the original pins and firm up the attachment of the replacement sole? >What finish, if any, does the sole get? >Is shellac the appropriate finish for the body of a user plane? How much of the old finish should be removed? With what method? (sandpaper, steel wool & solvent?) >Are the ball and tote finished in the same way as the body? Thanks for your help. Ed in Ottawa ed@a... ---- Start of Message 133033 ---- From: Kirk Eppler Date: 2004-05-04 09:10:28 Subject: Re: LODI Dividers? Ok, maybe not back at work quite yet http://home.att.net/~saddle_tool_dude/references.htm Lists several references to patents by the Bernard, assigned to shollhorn, mostly leatherworking (hey, its a saddle tool dude's web page.) Not the same bernard as mentioned below And, there is a Lodi in NJ, NY, PA, VA, as well as several other states, quite removed from New Haven Not sure if a DATAMP steward cares about any of this, but it's there for the assimilating I wrote: > Not really feeling like working, I tried a few shots. > > Datamp has nothing on Schollhorn, nor anything on the patent dates > listed 5/6/1890, 10/24/1899 and 7/19/1892 credited to Bernard, only a > sawset on 12/11/1894, but possibly the same guy > > > Steve Reynolds wrote: > > > What is the significance of the marking "LODI" on dividers? > > -- Kirk Eppler Process Development Engineering Eppler.Kirk@g... ---- Start of Message 133034 ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-05-04 16:12:40 Subject: Re: Wheel Cleaner De-rusting Report With everything going on in my shop, what I can't get at today because it isn't finished zapping, means other stuff can get done, like making stuff out of wood. I must admit, though, that the zap tank will be the last resort for saws, given the situation I had with the 112. It was pretty bad, so the saw stayed in the tank for a couple days (only running when I was present, but maybe 10 hours anyway). I had just replaced the worn out farrier's rasp I was using as an anode, and I didn't know to keep the amps down and was cranking it out at nearly 6 amps. Came out of the tank pretty good looking after rinsing and minor scrubbing, but it seemed that the blade didn't have the spring it had before. Anyway, had to make a new tote as the old one was really sad, and this is a user, so I stuck the blade where it would get plenty of direct afternoon sunlight like I had read somewhere to treat for the extra pourosity of the reduced rust/now steel. Seemed to be better so I sharpened it, and after I got the new tote on left it in the sun for several more hours over several days and it seems to have gotten back more of its spring, but I don't think it has the same tension as before. I posted links to the pics before, but several folks said they couldn't get to them, so I've got them on my site now and here are a couple links: http://home.austin.rr.com/sawduster/Handsaws/112%20Cherry%2001.jpg http://home.austin.rr.com/sawduster/Handsaws/112%20Cherry%2002.jpg Jerry ---- Start of Message 133035 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-05-04 09:33:02 Subject: Re: Curing Beech You could steam 10,000bf at once, but try to get that much water up to a boil!! Steam requires expertise though. Boiling only requires a pot. yours, Scott hunter.cox@i... wrote: >what is the deal with "steamed beech", vs Boiled? > -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 133036 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-05-04 12:43:51 Subject: Re: LODI Dividers? Hi Steve & All, Steve wants to know the meaning of LODI marked on some Schollhorn dividers. Schollhorn marked that name on both dividers and pliers. Why does it have to "mean" something vs. just being a brand name? Though admittedly a pretty curious choice of brand name if that is all it is. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 133037 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-05-04 12:59:28 Subject: Re: Lime/Lindon Basswood Tulip etc > Larry (and others) are valiently trying to keep us genus - > challenged on the top of the precipice. . . Richard, this was not my goal. The species being discusses simply have more common names associated with them than imaginable. Worse, some of those names refer to completely different species that weren't even part of the discussion. It's too bad that this is so but as long as it is, sometimes we have to resort to the scientific names to sort things out, if only a little bit. > But on the original side of the pond, I would call a lime tree a > 'linden' but normally its referred to as being lime. I have a > vague thought that those of you 'over there' call it basswood, Exactly. This is what I was referring to relative to the naming conventions being different on both sides of the pond. If you're an Arizona boy like I am, a "lime tree" is a short fruit tree (genus Citrus) that creates rather tart, green fruits - not the tree you know by that name. When tracing all this it quickly makes your brain hurt because, I believe, that what you call lime tree is in the genus Tilia. It's wood and shape are very similar to the Liriodendron that North Americans call American whitewood or basswood. If you dip into the model ship community, though, they make no distinction between the two except that the Brits call it lime or linden and the Americans call it basswood. In the end, none of this is important beyond how it confounds our ability to communicate about different hunks of wood. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 133038 ---- From: Charlie Driggs Date: 2004-05-04 13:08:35 Subject: RE: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought > "....it is pretty hard to imagine maintaining any self-sustaining- planing across the knot riddled drek that is dimension lumber stateside." This is where lumber grading comes into the picture. Avoid the Borg et al and go to more traditional lumber yard that actually stocks 'Select' grade S-P-F (sorry, Jeff -- haven't a clue what that translates to in a UK 'deal' stick). True Select grade should have only tiny knots in it if any at all, as being high % clear, straight wood is a requirement. Much of what the big warehouses sell is towards the other end of the grader's scale. You get what you are paying for. > And burying the identity of a donor like Douglas Fir, from which a more costly and clear dimension lumber is also cut, under a generic label like "dimension lumber" or even "deal" seems disrespectful. Doug fir can produce anything from Utility grade (bottom) to Select (top) -- depends upon the log characteristics, whether it was a post-fire sale or ordinary timber sale, whether or not the log is blued, how sharp the saws (and maybe the sawyer) were when that log was processed, whether the planer knives are sharp and properly adjusted - or just hit an embedded nail on the prior stick, and whether or not the kiln turns it into a bowed or twisted bit of wood fiber. I've seen a shipment of lodgepole logs produce better lumber than another truckload of Doug fir logs, and 50,000 bf lodgepole dimension lumber that turned into tons of corkscrews in the kiln, surprising everyone when the kiln doors were opened (kept the chipper going for a while). There are no guarantees on any species, or any log. If you guys really want to do this, I suggest you just get on with it -- pick a species and go at it. Get a first year of results, then refine the game rules when you think you can improve them. Doesn't much matter what species it is as long as everyone who wants to participate can get a stick of it meeting the rules. Of course, you want something that can generate a long shaving for the camera, but maple can do that, S-P-F boards can do that, anything with clear grain and which is relatively soft should qualify. Something easy to plane like mahogany probably isn't a good choice as it doesn't tend to be low cost and the shavings aren't as strong or light reflective, so less suitable for on-camera shots. Why not let Jeff & Scott come to an agreement on what species to use? You're naming this in their honor. Jus' my thoughts. Didn't cost you anything. Don't need to heed them. Charlie Driggs Newark DE ---- Start of Message 133039 ---- From: "Sanford Moss" Date: 2004-05-04 13:46:03 Subject: Re: Lime/Lindon Basswood Tulip etc Just peeking in at this thread, it seems confusion reigns about what is what. I messaged Richard offline (it is just awkward as an MSN subscriber to send non-HTML mail), but maybe that message would help clear up the confusiion. Hence: Richard, Your Linden/lime is the same (or nearly the same) as our (N. America) basswood. Both are in the same genus, _Tilia_. Our most common species is T. americana, yours (I think) is T. europa. The European form has smaller leaves than ours, and is extensively planted over here in cities and towns as it has a more compact growth form and the smaller leaves make it appear less coarse. In both Europe and the US it is a very important tree for beekeepers since its abundant nectar produces a thick spicy honey (Lime Honey, Basswood Honey) that is favored by honey lovers. One epicenter of natural basswood growth iis in New York State, around Ithaca, through which this message will pass. Of course the wood is a favorite of carvers, but is also used extensively in small boxes used to package such items as diverse as comb honey and salt fish. Tulip poplar, Liliodendron, is a completely different tree, growing primarily in the middle Eastern US, where it reaches its fastest growth in the Carolinas, Virginia, Pennsylvania & environs (the main basswood territory is a bit north of this). This tree gets very large (2 or 3 meters diameter), grows quickly and produces a nicely grained white sapwood with greenish heartwood. It is an important primary "secondary" wood used in much of the old and new furniture industry, and is the main "white" wood of our lumber outlets. As you've heard, it is not a true "Poplar" (genus Populus). The latter includes our quaking and bigtooth aspens, and (I think) the European Lombardy poplar. The tulip poplar also is important to beekeepers, as the large tulip-shaped flowers (from which the tree derives part of its common name) can each contain as much as 1 teaspoon of high quality nectar. Hope this helps, Sandy (who is a zoologist, not a botanist--but who once kept lots of bees) _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ---- Start of Message 133040 ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 2004-05-04 13:57:01 Subject: Re: LODI Dividers? Didn't say it has to mean anything, but I suspect it does. Think of most of the brandnames you are familiar with. Don't they connote some meaning? Off the top of my head I can think of "Mr. Punch" for the Goodell Pratt/ Millers Falls pushdrill, "Excelsior" for Stanley's blockplane, "Vise-Grip" for locking pliers, yada yada. I thought one of the major reasons for giving things a brand name was to lend an image to them. One of superiority, strength or speed usually. LODI just doesn't grab one metaphorically. Regards, Steve - toying with LOcking DIvider at the moment (doesn't help with pliers). -----Original Message----- From: Bob Nelson Subject: Re: [oldtools] LODI Dividers? Hi Steve & All, Steve wants to know the meaning of LODI marked on some Schollhorn dividers. Schollhorn marked that name on both dividers and pliers. Why does it have to "mean" something vs. just being a brand name? Though admittedly a pretty curious choice of brand name if that is all it is. ---- Start of Message 133041 ---- From: Esther Heller Date: 2004-05-04 14:10:18 Subject: Building steambox, was: Re: [oldtools] Curing Beech hunter.cox@i... wrote: > what is the deal with "steamed beech", vs Boiled? > > > I have a turkey fryer that I was going to make a steam box for bending > with, it seems like I might be able to use the same box for steaming > beech? anyone have any experience or suggestions on that? Sounds like it would work fine, can't say I have done it. I do have a suggestion for the steam box though. Mike Dunbar had an article in AWW in the later '90's on how to make a copy of his steamer, and a picture with description is at www.thewindsorinstitute.com/tools.html (Ultimate steam box). The turkey fryer is an excellent burner, just _be sure_ to tighten the connections with a wrench and test with soapy water when hooking up the propane (I was used to hand tightening a camp stove and surprised at the bubbles when I tested). 2 things to think about: 1. Schedule _80_ pipe is a specialty item that is hard to find, but it doesn't soften and stays cool to the touch. Some galoots making steamers several years ago reported schedule 40 sagged. I went to a specialty plumbing supply place, it came in 10' lengths. 2. The sample on Mike's page is 4" diameter which will easily do a batch of chair parts at once. If you have any possibilities of molding planes or H&R's in your future, spring for a bigger diameter and get it over with. (OTOH a batch of somewhat oversize molder blanks will simmer nicely in a turkey fryer pot, which for those who don't know the latest outdoor somewhat testosterone driven cooking fad is a deep stockpot that probably holds 25-30 quarts/litres.) Think about the biggest diameter object you will ever want to make. The rest of the parts that might not be immediately obvious from the picture: Some kind of friction fit end caps you can rip off without fussing The center connector is the white plastic drain pipe in a T that the straight through is the Sch80 diameter and the "leg" of the T is around 1.25" (whatever radiator hose is) The boiler is a never used metal gas (petrol Jeff) can The boiler/T connection is a straight length of corrugated radiator hose. Drill a couple vent holes in the top side of the pipe near the ends. Put a couple _stainless steel_ big nuts and bolts through holes in the pipe to make a chord across the diameter of the pipe. You want the parts up in the steam, not cooling in the condensate. Rip out the plastic vent from the gas can and plug it with a stick. (the plastic will melt, you don't want all your steam pouring out the gas can vent, but you _DON'T_ want anything so tight steam can build up pressure, leaky is good). Shopping for the parts is a lot easier if you walk in with a picture of what you are trying to do, especially when you do the T connector. I had a radiator hose and the article, said "I am trying to do this" and the guy delighted in figuring out how to do it with minimal parts (IIRC there were a couple size stepdowns). Operation: fill the gascan half full of water, light the burner, sit the can on the burner, and hook up the radiator hose to the fill spout. Lightly plug the vent. Try to arrange the sawbuck so the pipe is level. Stick in the wood. Time from when the steam pours from the pipe vents (you get nice plumes). If the sawbuck isn't very level, the steam goes up and only one end steams, not good. If you aren't getting plumes in 5-10 minutes, start knocking apart the assembly with a long stick, there has to be an obstruction blocking the steam (I once had a bugnest in a narrow part of the T) and you don't want the steam burning you when you take it apart! For long sessions keep an eye on the water and don't let things boil dry. Have fun! It is a real shock to easily bend a 3/4" diameter chunk of oak that you are accustomed to thinking of as "solid". Frustration with breaking parts comes later... Esther Heller bench built Windsor chairs www.estherheller.com is now up! ---- Start of Message 133042 ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-05-04 11:10:15 Subject: FS: May 2004 Spring cleaning continues... First, a generally unmarked (except for a warrented superior medallion) 16 inch backsaw. Filed crosscut at 12 points. No etch, no stamp, and looks to be relatively modern from the handle. Nice and straight with no pitting. Call it a small tenon saw or a big carcase saw if you wish, but there are just some jobs that call for a bigger saw than the plain old 12 inchers that we all have and love. Building a bench? How are you going to make M & T joints in 2 x 6 lumber with a dinky little saw? This one has quite a bit of set. This has been my user for a while, but I just acquired a Disston in this size (hey, they follow me home) so I need to find it a good home. It would be really good for deal - and speaking of good deals, it will come jointed, sharpened and ready to use, which ought to be worth the $12 price by itself. http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/backsaw.jpg Second, a left over from last month, price reduced. A set of NOS Millers Falls fluted drill points. This is the 403 set (round shafts for three jaw chucks), although it is not marked as such on the little plastic tube. Nor are the bits marked for sizes, but they look to all be there – 1/16 through 11/64. So they won’t fit your 188 or 100 well, but are useful if you have some other small drill that could use a set of fluted drill points with round shafts. $12. http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/drillpoints.jpg SOT terms, as always -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 133043 ---- From: "Sanford Moss" Date: 2004-05-04 14:30:57 Subject: Re: LODI Dividers? Steve wrote: >Didn't say it has to mean anything, but I suspect it does. Think of >most of the brandnames you are familiar with. Don't they connote some >meaning? Off the top of my head I can think of "Mr. Punch" for the >Goodell Pratt/ Millers Falls pushdrill, "Excelsior" for Stanley's >blockplane, "Vise-Grip" for locking pliers, yada yada. I thought one of >the major reasons for giving things a brand name was to lend an image >to them. One of superiority, strength or speed usually. > >LODI just doesn't grab one metaphorically. Perhaps if one delved into the Schollhorn company history maybe something would pop up. For example The Cincinnatti Tool Co. used its President's names (Martins, Hargraves) as brand names. And good 'ol Henry Disston honored an employee, Jackson, with a brand name. So maybe there is a Lodi lurking in the Schollhorn history. Or maybe young Billy Schollhorn (1834-1890) had a girl friend named "Lori DiAngelo". Or maybe LODI was an acronym that would have been recognizable to tool guys in the 19th Century, but not now. Or maybe the town of Lodi, in northern Italy, had some special signficance for Schollhorn, like family roots. etc, etc. When you own the company I guess you can name any product anything you want and to hell with metaphors. :-) Sandy (randomly thinking) Moss _________________________________________________________________ Stop worrying about overloading your inbox - get MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1/go/o- nm00200362ave/direct/01/ ---- Start of Message 133044 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-05-04 11:37:11 Subject: Re: Building steambox, was: Re: [oldtools] Curing Beech Wow, great stuff Esther!! I think I can help with a couple parts, old mill boneyard scrounge that I am 8^) . Pipe you can get anyplace that sells industrial pipe as their -main- line of business. Try United Pipe and Supply or something like it in the phone book. The pipe is dirt cheap and sched 80 is always a good idea (it's usually gray as opposed to white sched 40) since it doesn't cost a lot more (comes in 20 foot lengths standard but they'll cut it for you), but it's the fittings that'll kill ya. 6" is brutal but anything bigger than that is criminally costly! They make strap on saddles for connecting a smaller pipe instead of using an expensive T. Plus it's a lot easier. The saddles can be spendy too but if you dig they can be cheaper and no bushings needed to get you down to size. Drill your hole where you want it and cinch up the saddle. Simple as that. Forget pipe caps that cost a fortune and you have to wrestle. Get test plugs from Mcmaster if over 4". Otherwise any hardware usually has them for sewer line testing. These are 5 bucks and will hold enough pressure fine. Plus they go on and off by grace of a thumbscrew. They only will hold about 15-20 pounds so if the pressure ever gets up above that they'll pop harmlessly off. Built in safety. yours cheaply Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 133045 ---- From: "Bramel, Jim" Date: 2004-05-04 14:54:01 Subject: RE: LODI Dividers? As many as are working on this maybe -=20 (L)ots (O)f (D)iligent (I)ndividuals.=20 -----Original Message----- From: Sanford Moss [mailto:sushandel@m...]=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 1:31 PM To: oldtools Subject: Re: [oldtools] LODI Dividers? Or maybe LODI was an acronym that would have been recognizable=20 to tool guys in the 19th Century, but not now. ---- Start of Message 133046 ---- From: "David Linnabary" Date: 2004-05-04 18:40:04 Subject: Re: Curing Beech Hunter, A turkey fryer will do a nice job of firing a boiler for a steam box. My boiler is made from an old 5 gal. freon tank which resembles a propane tank. For the steambox itself, I used 16" diameter metal twist steel air duct that I talked an HVAC guy out of on a commercial building site. It's about 7' long. Its the same stuff many shops are using for dust extraction. A pipefitter friend contributed a wall fitting and a pair of cool looking thermometer and pressure gages to monitor the whole contraption with. I used that plastic coated closet shelf stock as a platform inside the steam box because it wouldn't transfer metal stains onto the wood. Basically the pipefitter did all the assembly for me so he could use it as a teaching example in an apprenticeship class he teaches. Now I'll probably have to build him something, geezzz. :) Good Luck David Linnabary Ohio Galoot ---- Start of Message 133047 ---- From: brian_welch@h... Date: 2004-05-04 15:10:46 Subject: Re: LODI Dividers? I also have a pair of LODI stamped dividers. I think one reason that Steve might be thinking that LODI stands for something is that it is written in all caps, like an acronym. I will look at mine when I get home to see who made them. Frankly, I assumed that LODI was an owner stamp. Brian Welch stuck in Cambridge, again ---- Start of Message 133048 ---- From: Thomas Conroy Date: 2004-05-04 12:49:53 Subject: Re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing Bryan--- A few comments on sharpening, based on experience teaching sharpening to bookbinders (and IME leather working tools need to be way sharper than woodworking tools or they won't work at all, and they lose their edges faster as well). Hope these will prove helpful, not discouraging. >I went through a lot of sandpaper to hone the bevel. It seemed >like the silicon carbide paper (from Klingspor) lost some of its >sanding ability after only 10 strokes or so. Is this normal?< If the abrasive paper seems to be going dull really fast, I would guess that you are pushing the edge into the stroke, not pulling the edge away from the stroke. In other words, you should sharpen on the backstroke, raise the edge on the forestroke. With paper, sharpening on the forestroke will, in my experience, knock the grit right off the paper. Not that I'm any great fan of using abrasive paper for sharpening. With whetstones it is more efficient to sharpen on the forestroke, and it seems more intuitively obvious as well. Of course, you do have to replace waterstones every twenty years or so... >I guess it plane iron was sharp but not as sharp as some folks >have indicated is possible with Scary Sharp. It would shave paper >and some hairs on my arm, but it wasn't exactly a knife through >butter.< Shaving is a negative test, not a positive one: if the edge won't shave it is dull, but if it will shave it may not yet be sharp. I once was teaching a sharpening class where someone said something about "sharp enough to shave with" and I said "any old edge will do that," pulled out a pocketknife, and cleared the hair off a five square inches of my forearm with one fast pass. Then I went on talking, but every once in a while I had to dab at that patch with kleenex as I talked: not from a cut, but I seem to have had a bit of gooseflesh I hadn't noticed and was getting a bunch of slow, tiny dots of blood. (pause for ego decompression). Not that cutting flesh is any test of sharpness either; new disposable scalpels are adequately sharp, but nothing to write home about. The only test that I have found that works is to try the tool for its proper use--- and it **will** go like a knife through butter if it is sharp. >a mirror finish on the back and on the bevel...< I agree with previous comments that a mirror finish over a big area is unimportant; deceptive, even, since you may pay attention to it rather than to the edge. I can remember when I used to be able to get one, but I can't be bothered now. The edge is what matters. >I wasn't sure how far I should go with flattening the back. How >can I tell that the back is flat enough so that the cutting edge >will be as sharp as possible when you finish honing the bevel?< I like a very flat back over a big area, partly because of the way some leatherworking and binding tools work, partly because a counterbevel on the back tends to get worse and worse and it is easier to keep the back flat than to reflatten it when it gets out of hand. Objectively, though, the back of a plane blade only has to be flat far enough back for the chipbreaker to make contact; in other words, it only needs to be flat for a quarter inch or so, but it should be perfect for that quarter inch. Chisels are different: the back of a paring chisel is a registration surface, and the chisel is often used to level down bumps by sliding the back on the wood surface, nipping off bumps where and only where they stick up (like the gooseflesh on my arm... maybe not a good model to offer...). For this "self-jigging" effect the entire back of the chisel must be dead flat. But having a big flat back won't make the edge sharper; it just puts the edge where you want it to do its job. >I could still feel some roughness with my finger if I touch the >wood surface.< Again I'll repeat what others have said: you won't get perfect results for quite a while. At present it seems that planing is improving the flatness of the wood, which is exactly what you want at first. As you get accustomed to sharpening and using the planes the results will get better, and then one day you'll have a patch--- not a whole edge or side, just a patch--- that is silkier and shimmers more than you will ever see from sandpaper. And it won't happen again for a while; but eventually you will accept it as what you expect from planing, and will feel cheated if you don't get it over the whole surface. Just give it time. Another word of encouragement: maybe woodworkers are different, but every binder I know who does much freehand sharpening finds that there are days when it simply won't work. Doesn't matter how good you are in general, some days everything you touch comes out dull, tool after tool. This is where jigs are really useful: normally a jig is a waste of time and a crutch that will rob you of the ability to sharpen without a jig (and there are some tools for which no jig exists, no, not even for a Tormek where you can probably spend two hundred dollars for a fitting to let you resharpen your toenail clippers, though it won't work on fingernail clippers because the size and sweep are different). On a day when you can't sharpen freehand, sometimes a jig will work. But if you just can't seem to get an edge at times, don't worry too much about it; you may just have hit one of your Dullness Days, and it will go better tomorrow. And whatever you do don't teach sharpening. Every third beginner I teach makes a mistake I have never seen before; and once I figure out what the mistake is and correct it in the beginner, I start making it myself. I used to be able to sharpen quite well without too much fuss. Now I know all about mistakes. Tom Conroy Berkeley __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 133049 ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-05-04 16:05:24 Subject: Re: Wheel Cleaner De-rusting Report You are quite correct Ron. The acid I'm using is phosphoric acid. It reacts with rust (iron oxide) almost immediately, but it is very slow to etch iron/steel. Therefore, if you keep your soak times to just what is needed to remove the rust no etching occurs to the base metal. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Hock" To: "oldtools" Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Wheel Cleaner De-rusting Report > > My new zap tank is history! Phosphoric acid is my choice for rust > > removal from now on. > > But... But... But... Doesn't acid etch away good metal along with the rust? > Where electolysis converts only the rust and has no effect on the base > metal? Am I missing something? > > > Ron Hock > HOCK TOOLS www.hocktools.com > 16650 Mitchell Creek Dr. Fort Bragg, CA 95437 > (707) 964-2782 toll free: (888) 282-5233 fax: (707) 964-7816 > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 133050 ---- From: Brent Beach Date: 2004-05-04 13:24:20 Subject: Re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing Adding to this thread, but disagreeing on whether you should push or pull the tool along the abrasive. Pulling puts a feather edge on the tool that is hard to remove. You need to push the tool forward to remove this edge. In general a combination of pushing and pulling should work and should be no harder on the abrasive. Perhaps you should try a different abrasive. I use 3M micro-abrasive sheets (available from the usual mail order people) and they last quite a long time. My web pages on sharpening and testing plane irons include a description of my sharpening station (first item) http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/overview.html Brent Thomas Conroy wrote: >>I went through a lot of sandpaper to hone the bevel. It seemed >>like the silicon carbide paper (from Klingspor) lost some of its >>sanding ability after only 10 strokes or so. Is this normal?< > > > If the abrasive paper seems to be going dull really fast, I would > guess that you are pushing the edge into the stroke, not pulling > the edge away from the stroke. In other words, you should sharpen ---- Start of Message 133051 ---- From: "Robert Fortier" Date: 2004-05-04 16:23:51 Subject: Yard sale and flea market season is here !!!! Galoots Here in Sherbrooke, the sun and the rust come out about the same time as the snow melt away. So the saturday morning paper get fillet with nice ads stating ``yard sale, tools, etc....` So last weekend I got to a place for a yard sale. I pick up a brace and a beaten up Stanley #110, and i go further in the yard, into the two door garage. I notice a plastic curtain, covering all the back wall. The curtain was opened and some guy was looking at what was behind. I approach and what do I see...... PLANES !!!! SQUARES !!!!! WOODIES !!!!! COVERING ALL THE WALL !!!! I was frozen...never saw so much stuff together, except in books. There was about 300 molding planes, between 25 and 30 metal bench plane, around 30 block plane, a lot of woodies, a 6 inch piles of squares, some cooper planes, around 5 or 6 stanley #45, box of cutter, braces, bits, hand saw.... I heard that the guy will sell this collection in a block, not piece by piece. Since I still have 23 years of house payment in front of me, I did not dare to ask the price of such a collection, but it must be high. That was the first story....now the second one... I went to the flea market two weeks ago. I found a nice Disston, in need of attention, for 1 $. There is an etch with the phrase ``bla bla bla best saw ever made bla bla bla`` I'll have to clean it sometime. Then I got to a table where there was two woodie jointer, about 24 inch long. The seller was asking 50$ each. So I pass and go away. Another guy seem interested by those plane. The seller goes down to 40$, the guy does not move. The seller goes down to 35$, then 30$. At this point, I come back and take a closer look at the nicest one of the two...not bad, tote intact, Spear & Jackson iron, some pitting in the wood in front of the blade (on the top, where it got hammered for adjustement) The other guy does not speak and start to go away...the seller goes down to 25$...I grab the plane in question, the other guy approach...the seller say `` 15$ each !!`` At this precise moment, I reach for my money...the other guy looks at my plane, understant too lately that I got the nicest one, I pay and do the Galoot dance !!! He forgot the simplest rule, always grab what you are looking at... So now, I have a nice jointer, a nice saw and I start my second 5 gallons bucket of tool (I dont have time for now to attend my new tools, so I put those in buckets until I have time...) Bob in Sherbrooke, Province of Québec p.s. Larry, that was the St-Hyacinthe flea market ---- Start of Message 133052 ---- From: Al Perreault Date: 2004-05-04 16:45:39 Subject: Re: Yard sale and flea market season is here !!!! Bob, Imagine how many buckets you'd need, if you bought that big collection. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, MA Ducking and Running..... > I heard that the guy will sell this collection in a block, not piece by= > piece. Since I still have 23 years of house payment in front of me, I d= id > not dare to ask the price of such a collection, but it must be high. > = > = > So now, I have a nice jointer, a nice saw and I start my second 5 gallo= ns > bucket of tool (I dont have time for now to attend my new tools, so I p= ut > those in buckets until I have time...) > = > Bob in Sherbrooke, Province of Qu=E9bec > = ---- Start of Message 133053 ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-05-04 16:45:49 Subject: Re: cranky planes (was First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing) Jonathan, Quite true there are some planes which for one or more of several reasons just won't work well. No matter what you do to it nor how long you spend on it it will never work. There are also planes which will work if used for certain tasks but some woods are very challenging and require not just a plane which is well tuned but one well suited to the task. Ken Jonathan Peck wrote: >>I have a dozen bench planes (at least) and there's >>one that's almost impossible to get set up right no matter how >>sharp the iron is or how it's adjusted. I keep playing with it, but >>I often just say "the heck with it" and grab another plane. It's >>bothersome that it's beating me, but I can live with it. >> >> > >Has anbody else encountered the cranky plane? ya know, that rust >barrel Stanley that just won't perform like they say in the >catalogs. Conversely, I have a rust barrel #6 that I reserected and >I couldn't be more pleased with it's resulting perforamnce (It looks >good to). But I do have a cranky Clifton smoother. I kept on fooling >with it, and finally got it to perform, although it will never be a >fine smoother it is very serviceable as a rough smoother and general >bench plane. Because when I'd mess with it, I'd work over several >different things, I'm not sure what finally did the trick, or a >combination thereof. > >Another obsevation - the planes that I have fettled that the lateral >adjusting lever was not attached perform very well. I attribute this >to being able to lap both the frog bottom and where the blade beds >without obstruction. The blade sits down perfectly flat. I also use >flat stock with sandpaper wrapped around it to work on the bed. Hock >improved chip breakers are really good for this (bedrock style). > >Any further observations on this topic? > >regards >Jonathan > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > ---- Start of Message 133054 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-05-04 13:52:41 Subject: Re: LODI Dividers? >As many as are working on this maybe - > (L)ots (O)f (D)iligent (I)ndividuals. > Oh, I'll play! (L)ucious (O)phelia (D)elights (I)ra Better check the company records.......... yours, Scott Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 133055 ---- From: "Robert Fortier" Date: 2004-05-04 17:56:52 Subject: RE: Yard sale and flea market season is here !!!! make that barrels...... -----Message d'origine----- De : Al Perreault [mailto:alan.perreault@v...] Envoyé : 4 mai, 2004 16:46 À : oldtools Objet : Re: [oldtools] Yard sale and flea market season is here !!!! Bob, Imagine how many buckets you'd need, if you bought that big collection. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, MA Ducking and Running..... > I heard that the guy will sell this collection in a block, not piece by > piece. Since I still have 23 years of house payment in front of me, I did > not dare to ask the price of such a collection, but it must be high. > > > So now, I have a nice jointer, a nice saw and I start my second 5 gallons > bucket of tool (I dont have time for now to attend my new tools, so I put > those in buckets until I have time...) > > Bob in Sherbrooke, Province of Québec > ---- Start of Message 133056 ---- From: "Paul Coppinger" Date: 2004-05-04 16:58:59 Subject: Galoot Winos Galoots, Have you ever needed an excuse to drink wine? Now you can just say "I need the bottle." We all have wasted part of a container of finish because it hardened or dried in the can. Never again! Finish off that wine bottle, wash it and dry real good. Go to Bed, Bath & Beyond (or equivalent) and for about $15 you can buy a VacuVin air evacuator kit designed to preserve wine after opening the bottle by removing the air. The kit includes a hand vacuum pump (oldtool content) and several rubbers stoppers that have one-way valves in them. You pour your unused finish into the dry wine bottle, put the stopper in and pull a vacuum. Next time you need some finish, squeeze the stopper to release the vacuum, remove the stopper and pour into a bowl for application. When complete, return the remaining finish back into the wine bottle, re-stopper and pull another vacuum. Since you will have numerous finishes, several stoppers and lots of wine bottle, you will want to label the bottles. It helps to wipe the spout of the bottle before re-inserting the stopper. Fellow Galoot, Mike DeLong and I have been doing this for a while now and it really works well. If you don't drink, I can supply the bottles... empty. 8^) Best regards, Paul A. Coppinger ---- Start of Message 133057 ---- From: Thomas Conroy Date: 2004-05-04 15:36:18 Subject: Re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing Galoots--- Brent Beach wrote: "In general a combination of pushing and pulling should work and should be no harder on the abrasive. Perhaps you should try a different abrasive. I use 3M micro-abrasive sheets (available from the usual mail order people) and they last quite a long time..." My experience with sharpening with abrasive paper is from one or two workshops where common-or-garden silicon carbide paper was used; with fine emery cloth glued to a board for tools where a rough but fresh edge is appropriate (cutting out cloth can be done this way); and with making up special-shaped hones by gluing silicon carbide paper to special-shaped wood bits for special-shaped edges (mostly gouges and v-cutters). Not that much, in other words. It has always seemed to me that stroking into the edge took the abrasive off the paper. And now it seems that the problem is that I'm not using the right abrasive paper.... Like I said, I keep learning about sharpening, and the main thing I learn is more mistakes to make. Though I still can't say that I like abrasive paper for sharpening... At a slight tangent: Many galoots will send a reply to both the list and to the individual they are replying to. I very much enjoy and admire the courtesy of this, and the only reason I don't do it myself is that I follow the list on the archive, which truncates most addresses. I hope I haven't seemed discourteous in consequence. Tom Conroy Berkeley __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 133058 ---- From: "Lamar keeney" Date: 2004-05-04 20:14:43 Subject: RE: Galoot Winos Folks, now here is a Galoot after my own heart, tho I don't do much Vino, this is gotta be an idea that never would have accured on the porch around here(we literaly do sit around the porch here). As we never had need to reseal a cold beer, or much of anything else along that line, but is a worthy thought. Do those tops fit beer bottles? A good evening to all, Lamar >From: "Paul Coppinger" >Reply-To: "Paul Coppinger" >To: "oldtools" >Subject: [oldtools] Galoot Winos >Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 16:58:59 -0500 > >Galoots, > >Have you ever needed an excuse to drink wine? Now you can just say "I need >the bottle." > >We all have wasted part of a container of finish because it hardened or >dried in the can. Never again! Finish off that wine bottle, wash it and >dry real good. Go to Bed, Bath & Beyond (or equivalent) and for about $15 >you can buy a VacuVin air evacuator kit designed to preserve wine after >opening the bottle by removing the air. The kit includes a hand vacuum >pump >(oldtool content) and several rubbers stoppers that have one-way valves in >them. You pour your unused finish into the dry wine bottle, put the >stopper >in and pull a vacuum. Next time you need some finish, squeeze the stopper >to release the vacuum, remove the stopper and pour into a bowl for >application. When complete, return the remaining finish back into the wine >bottle, re-stopper and pull another vacuum. Since you will have numerous >finishes, several stoppers and lots of wine bottle, you will want to label >the bottles. It helps to wipe the spout of the bottle before re-inserting >the stopper. > >Fellow Galoot, Mike DeLong and I have been doing this for a while now and >it >really works well. If you don't drink, I can supply the bottles... empty. >8^) > >Best regards, >Paul A. Coppinger > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 133059 ---- From: "Bryan Lloyd" Date: 2004-05-05 00:26:59 Subject: Thanks! Re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing I have recieved many great responses for my numerous questions and comments about planing and sharpening. I definitely have picked up some good tips on how to refine my technique as I continue to practice, and I am looking forward to improving. I continue to be blown away by the collective knowledge of the folks on this board. Thanks again! Bryan ---- Start of Message 133060 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-05-04 21:04:55 Subject: scrapers Hello GG's Does anybody know when scrapers first started being used in woodworking and in what country? Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 133061 ---- From: "Peter Williams" Date: 2004-05-05 11:10:03 Subject: RE: scrapers > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Peck [mailto:jpeck@m...] > > Does anybody know when scrapers first started being used in > woodworking and in what country? > Probably in the stone age, not sure if they had "countries" then. -- Peter Williams ---- Start of Message 133062 ---- From: "Jon Endres, PE" Date: 2004-05-04 21:32:38 Subject: RE: Galoot Winos > Do those tops fit beer bottles? > > A good evening to all, > Lamar Boys 'n gurlz, there's another way. If you have a Tilia Foodsaver (vacuum sealer for eats) they make a mason jar sealer. Basically, by drawing a vacuum, it will seal a Mason jar tight just as if you'd canned a batch of 'maters. I'd much rather have my finishes in mason jars (available from half pint to half gallon in your finer hardware and farm supply stores) than have to figure out how to label and store odd shape and odd color wine bottles. I'd be a bit leery of making sure all the vino was washed out first as well. Much easier to make sure a mason jar is clean and dry. Now, if you don't have a Foodsaver, 'cause y'all aren't into that freezin' and preservin' in bulk (wife and 3.6 kids require such measures), they cost a hunnert bucks or more. I'd say, they're worth having, but the wine bottle trick sounds great if you have the wine bottles and you don't want to spend the money on another 'lecktrick kitchen tool. OT content - not much, 'cept the discussion started out about preserving finishes. Jon E - I use more hand tools in the kitchen than in the shop.... ---- Start of Message 133063 ---- From: Derek Berwald Date: 2004-05-04 18:31:16 Subject: Shellac Sources. Where does the discriminating galoot buy shellac these days? I just ran out of my dewaxed orange paddylac from years ago, and I need some more. I'm flattening the top of my workbench, and re-shellacking, it too. I would have had enough for this job, if I hadn't decided it wasn't flat enough *after* applying shellac the first time. Sigh. Paddy got out of the shellac biz a couple years back. I tried some Lee Valley orange, and it was murky and strange. My local hardware store sells cans of Zinsser (sp?), but I've heard about issues with shelf life. Does anyone know of other good sources? db ****** Derek Berwald derek@p... ---- Start of Message 133064 ---- From: "M.Stadulis" Date: 2004-05-04 21:38:44 Subject: Re: Shellac Sources. Homestead Finishing.......Liberon Supply.........shellac.net....all Behlen stuff is good ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Berwald" To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 9:31 PM Subject: [oldtools] Shellac Sources. > Where does the discriminating galoot buy shellac these days? > > I just ran out of my dewaxed orange paddylac from years ago, and I need > some more. I'm flattening the top of my workbench, and re-shellacking, > it too. I would have had enough for this job, if I hadn't decided it > wasn't flat enough *after* applying shellac the first time. Sigh. > > Paddy got out of the shellac biz a couple years back. I tried some > Lee Valley orange, and it was murky and strange. My local hardware store > sells cans of Zinsser (sp?), but I've heard about issues with shelf life. > Does anyone know of other good sources? > > db > > > > > > ****** > Derek Berwald > derek@p... > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 133065 ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-05-04 20:42:30 Subject: Re: Galoot Winos To All: Bloxygen from Rockler or most any other woodworking supplier is an excellent product and it only takes a little spray to displace the oxygen. It has never failed me. http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=1396 Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Endres, PE" To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 6:32 PM Subject: RE: [oldtools] Galoot Winos > > Do those tops fit beer bottles? > > > > A good evening to all, > > Lamar > > Boys 'n gurlz, there's another way. If you have a Tilia Foodsaver (vacuum > sealer for eats) they make a mason jar sealer. Basically, by drawing a > vacuum, it will seal a Mason jar tight just as if you'd canned a batch of > 'maters. I'd much rather have my finishes in mason jars (available from > half pint to half gallon in your finer hardware and farm supply stores) than > have to figure out how to label and store odd shape and odd color wine > bottles. I'd be a bit leery of making sure all the vino was washed out > first as well. Much easier to make sure a mason jar is clean and dry. > > Now, if you don't have a Foodsaver, 'cause y'all aren't into that freezin' > and preservin' in bulk (wife and 3.6 kids require such measures), they cost > a hunnert bucks or more. I'd say, they're worth having, but the wine bottle > trick sounds great if you have the wine bottles and you don't want to spend > the money on another 'lecktrick kitchen tool. > > OT content - not much, 'cept the discussion started out about preserving > finishes. > > Jon E > - I use more hand tools in the kitchen than in the shop.... > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 133066 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-04 19:02:18 Subject: Re: Shellac Sources. The only problem is the price. I needed some garnet recently and since I was passing by a Rockler store I went in and bought a pound of Behlen's. With tax, license and dealer prep it was almost $25 out the door. I cried and wished that I had bought a huge amount more than I did when Paddy had his last sale. I think I paid half of that amount from him. You can buy a gallon of clear (well, almost clear) shellac at the Borg for under $25. If you allow it to sit quietly for a week you can decant the top of the stuff off and leave the waxy crud behind. I use the waxy crud for sealing the ends of green wood. I don't know how wonderful this is in comparison to other methods, but it seems to work. On Tuesday, May 4, 2004, at 06:31 PM, Derek Berwald wrote: > Where does the discriminating galoot buy shellac these days? > > I just ran out of my dewaxed orange paddylac from years ago, and I > need > some more. I'm flattening the top of my workbench, and > re-shellacking, > it too. I would have had enough for this job, if I hadn't decided it > wasn't flat enough *after* applying shellac the first time. Sigh. > > Paddy got out of the shellac biz a couple years back. I tried some > Lee Valley orange, and it was murky and strange. My local hardware > store > sells cans of Zinsser (sp?), but I've heard about issues with shelf > life. > Does anyone know of other good sources? > > db > > > > > > ****** > Derek Berwald > derek@p... > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 133067 ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-05-04 22:08:16 Subject: Re: Shellac Sources. Derek Berwald wrote: > Where does the discriminating galoot buy shellac these days? > > I just ran out of my dewaxed orange paddylac from years ago, and I need > some more. I'm flattening the top of my workbench, and re-shellacking, > it too. I would have had enough for this job, if I hadn't decided it > wasn't flat enough *after* applying shellac the first time. Sigh. > > Paddy got out of the shellac biz a couple years back. I tried some > Lee Valley orange, and it was murky and strange. My local hardware store > sells cans of Zinsser (sp?), but I've heard about issues with shelf life. > Does anyone know of other good sources? Never used them so I can't say firsthand, but try www.shellac.net Also, woodcraft sells Hock brand. ---- Start of Message 133068 ---- From: Esther Heller Date: 2004-05-04 22:25:37 Subject: Re: Building steambox, was: Re: [oldtools] Curing Beech scott grandstaff wrote: > > > (comes in 20 foot lengths standard but they'll cut it > for you), but it's the fittings that'll kill ya. 6" is brutal but > anything bigger than that is criminally costly! Mine is 4' but I am doing 1" or less diameter parts > They make strap on saddles for connecting a smaller pipe instead of > using an expensive T. Plus it's a lot easier. The saddles can be spendy > too but if you dig they can be cheaper and no bushings needed to get you > down to size. Drill your hole where you want it and cinch up the saddle. > Simple as that. Actually (keeping in mind mine is 4") the T and other stuff was pretty cheap. I built it in '98 and don't remember the prices, but I am sure all the piping was _well_ under $100. I upgraded to 146,000 BTU turkey fryer for a burner last winter, goes a lot better than the 12,000 BTU grillside accessory burner I was using, but watch yourself lighting it! > Forget pipe caps that cost a fortune and you have to wrestle. Get test > plugs from Mcmaster if over 4". Otherwise any hardware usually has them > for sewer line testing. These are 5 bucks and will hold enough pressure > fine. Plus they go on and off by grace of a thumbscrew. I don't even need a thumbscrew, mine are some sort of slip on black rubber things, yank it off and drop it with one hand while grabbing the part with tongs with the other. Have things set up so you turn 180 degrees and there is your bending form ready to go with all wedges and hammer handy. They only will > hold about 15-20 pounds so if the pressure ever gets up above that > they'll pop harmlessly off. Built in safety. YOU DON'T WANT ANY PRESSURE!!! This is strictly 1 local atmosphere. Between the vents in the pipe and the vent in the gascan boiler not being tight there should be no pressure anywhere. Ambient pressure steam is plenty hot enough without looking for pressure cooker explosions... I _really_ don't want to accidentally encourage someone to experiment with a DYI pressure cooker! Esther Heller bench built Windsor chairs www.estherheller.com ---- Start of Message 133069 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-05-04 21:19:42 Subject: Re: Galoot Winos Huck, I'm afraid I would have to go along with Paul's idea. With your suggestion, where is the excuse to empty all those wine bottles? Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard J. Hucker" To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 10:42 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Galoot Winos > > To All: > > Bloxygen from Rockler or most any other woodworking supplier is an excellent > product and it only takes a little spray to displace the oxygen. It has > never failed me. > http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=1396 > > Regards, > Col. Dick Hucker (Huck)dtools ---- Start of Message 133070 ---- From: "Gary P. Laroff" Date: 2004-05-04 19:27:20 Subject: RE: Shellac Sources. I've used Moser brand from Woodworkers Supply and it was good. I've standardized on Behlens. It's a bit pricey but has given me excellent results. Hock brand is sold by Woodcraft Supply and others. Zinsser, IMHO isn't worth using on real woodworking. Mix your own shellac and you'll know what's in it. Gary Laroff Portland, Oregon > > > Where does the discriminating galoot buy shellac these days? > > I just ran out of my dewaxed orange paddylac from years ago, and I need > some more. I'm flattening the top of my workbench, and re-shellacking, > it too. I would have had enough for this job, if I hadn't decided it > wasn't flat enough *after* applying shellac the first time. Sigh. > > Paddy got out of the shellac biz a couple years back. I tried some > Lee Valley orange, and it was murky and strange. My local hardware store > sells cans of Zinsser (sp?), but I've heard about issues with shelf life. > Does anyone know of other good sources? > > db > > ---- Start of Message 133071 ---- From: Esther Heller Date: 2004-05-04 22:49:43 Subject: Re: Shellac Sources. Derek Berwald wrote: > Where does the discriminating galoot buy shellac these days? > Judging by what has been appearing on the shelf of my local Woodcraft, you would do well to surf on over to Rev. Ron Hock's website (something like hocktools.com but my modem is being very slow so I haven't checked). Esther Heller bench built Windsor chairs www.estherheller.com ---- Start of Message 133072 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-04 19:44:46 Subject: Re: Building steambox, was: Re: [oldtools] Curing Beech Scott did not say there would be 15 to 20 pounds pressure. He said the caps were capable of holding that, and would pop off under pressure for an automatic safety. But actually, if you are not a boilermaker you might not know that 15 pounds of steam is killer stuff. Esther is quite right. No pressure on any steam bending equipment. Steam pressure will hurt you worse than you want to know about. A pressure cooker has approximately that much pressure, and you can see for yourself how long it takes to normalize the pressure in one of those after cooking is done. On Tuesday, May 4, 2004, at 07:25 PM, Esther Heller wrote: > > They only will >> hold about 15-20 pounds so if the pressure ever gets up above that >> they'll pop harmlessly off. Built in safety. > > YOU DON'T WANT ANY PRESSURE!!! This is strictly 1 local atmosphere. > Between the vents in the pipe and the vent in the gascan boiler > not being tight there should be no pressure anywhere. Ambient > pressure steam is plenty hot enough without looking for pressure > cooker explosions... > > I _really_ don't want to accidentally encourage someone to experiment > with a DYI pressure cooker! ---- Start of Message 133073 ---- From: "Frank Filippone" Date: 2004-05-04 19:54:46 Subject: RE: Shellac Sources. Try tapping.. "shellac.net" into your search engine.... The guy that Paddy sold the business to is still in business and sells at close to "paddy-prices". I just got some..... I think they said they were Liberons' retail ( Internet) sales outlet..... Frank Filippone red735i@e... ---- Start of Message 133074 ---- From: "Mack the Youth Guy" Date: 2004-05-04 22:40:08 Subject: Re: Galoot Winos Especially those bottles of wine with the Coppinger label...=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Frank=0D Date: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 21:25:32=0D To: oldtools=0D Subject: Re: [oldtools] Galoot Winos=0D =0D Huck,=0D =0D I'm afraid I would have to go along with Paul's idea. With your=0D suggestion, where is the excuse to empty all those wine bottles?=0D =0D Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works)=0D =0D =0D ----- Original Message -----=0D From: "Richard J. Hucker" =0D To: "oldtools" =0D Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 10:42 PM=0D Subject: Re: [oldtools] Galoot Winos=0D =0D =0D >=0D > To All:=0D >=0D > Bloxygen from Rockler or most any other woodworking supplier is an=0D excellent=0D > product and it only takes a little spray to displace the oxygen. It=0D has=0D > never failed me.=0D > http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=3D1396=0D >=0D > Regards,=0D > Col. Dick Hucker (Huck)dtools=0D =0D =0D =0D ---- Start of Message 133075 ---- From: Eric and Julie Date: 2004-05-04 19:50:43 Subject: Scraper question - MacCoy Sales Co. Galoots: The other night I was playing around with my #12 (that's a scraper, Jeff). I've had this thing for a couple of years, but never noticed before that the blade was marked. The eyesight must be the second (or third?) thing to go ... but, I digress. The loupe revealed a lion standing on an arrow, and "A GARANTIE" below. Given those two, the words above the lion have got to be "PEUGEOT FRERES", even though all I can make out is "PE" and "RES". So, it's a French scraper blade. Those Peugeot brothers were making scraper blades before they turned to cars, eh? But wait - there's more! Below the lion , it's stamped "France" in script that's curvy enough to make me think early 1900's. Below that (in the same script) is "MacCoy Sales Co", and below that, "N.Y. City". Well, I Swingley'd on "MacCoy", and I googled on it too, with no results. So, the electronic archives having failed, I turn to the Porch. Anybody ever hear of this outfit? Many thanks, - Eric B. (in Fairbanks, Alaska, where the first tiny birch leaves are just starting to uncurl - absolutely the most tender, delicate welcome shade of green you could ever hope to see, and more than a week early this year!) ---- Start of Message 133076 ---- From: Jon Pile Date: 2004-05-04 21:07:26 Subject: Re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing On Tue, 2004-05-04 at 13:24, Brent Beach wrote: > Adding to this thread, but disagreeing on whether you should push or > pull the tool along the abrasive. > > Pulling puts a feather edge on the tool that is hard to remove. You > need to push the tool forward to remove this edge. In general a > combination of pushing and pulling should work and should be no harder > on the abrasive. > > Perhaps you should try a different abrasive. I use 3M micro-abrasive > sheets (available from the usual mail order people) and they last > quite a long time. My web pages on sharpening and testing plane irons > include a description of my sharpening station (first item) > > http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/overview.html amen! And thank you - your writing took my use of SS to the next level. I would like to relate one hint which is probably obvious to everyone, but it was sure news to me...the crepe block or fine brush don't do the trick for the finer grits; say 600 and over. They can however be cleaned up with a clean rag (I use a paper towel; note that this may be sacrilege) moistened with isopropyl alcohol. The 3M abrasives seem to really benefit from this treatment. LV also recommend citrus-based cleaner for this task, which seems wrong to me; YMMV. -jP, flattening a batch of old Greenlee chisels in beautiful Marin County ---- Start of Message 133077 ---- From: "Steve Longley" Date: 2004-05-04 23:46:27 Subject: RE: Galoot Winos Lamar Mused...=20 > As we never had need to reseal a cold beer, or much of anything else=20 > along that line, but it is a worthy thought. Do those tops fit beer = bottles? The answer is YES, the "VacuVin" will fit a standard beer bottle as well = as soft drink bottles (for those teetotalers over there - *pointing*)and=20 other standard bottles like vinegar, etc.=20 Paul's right, VacuVin stoppers work great for slowing down oxidation. = The only problem that I have is, like everything else, finding the little = pump when I'm done. =20 Steve ---- Start of Message 133078 ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-05-04 21:50:55 Subject: Re: Shellac Sources. On 4 May 2004 at 18:31, Derek Berwald wrote: > Where does the discriminating galoot buy shellac these days? The stuff that Liberon sells is supposed to be essentially the same as PaddyLac, or so Paddy said when he shut down. I went looking for their place in Ft. Bragg last autumn and never found it, despite driving by it at least six times. Highway 1 is a pretty straight and narrow road at that point, so I figured it would be hard to miss - but I was wrong. I eventually called them up from home, and they seemed surprised that someone would want to walk in and buy something, so they don't have a sign. I was actually looking for something else, Japan colors for glazing. It turned out they were out of stock so no great loss, although it took them a really long time to figure out what they had on the shelf. Not exactly a model of organization, shall we say. I later talked to one of their local dealers who mentioned that she never could communicate with them, and seemed surprised to hear that Liberon still had her on their web site. Luckily, two plus miles down the road is the Hock household, where they are much better organized. I loaded up on shellac there. A far better solution to the problem in my opinion. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 133079 ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 2004-05-05 01:25:18 Subject: FS: Wine Bottles (was [oldtools] Galoot Winos) In the spirit (no pun intended) of some of the more questionable practices on the online auction site that occasionally get discussed on the Porch, I would like to assist the wine-bottle-deprived galoots with the following offer: (a) I will sell wine bottles, carefully emptied, and then washed and dried to eliminate any alcohol, wine residue, or water, to any galoot for one cent per bottle, subject to a shipping and handling charge of just $9.99 per bottle, domestic or international. (b) I offer wine recycling/wine bottle optimization and repurposement service free of charge. Send me a full bottle of wine, with the factory seal, and I will convert it into an empty wine bottle suitable for storage of shellac or other galoot necessities and ship it back to you in the condition set forth above, at *no charge*, subject to prior approval. In fact, if the wine is of sufficiently high quality I will even include a galootish gift with the optimized and repurposed wine bottle when it is returned to you. On Wednesday, May 5, 2004 at 12:46:27 AM, Steve Longley wrote: > Lamar Mused... >> As we never had need to reseal a cold beer, or much of anything else >> along that line, but it is a worthy thought. Do those tops fit beer >> bottles? > The answer is YES, the "VacuVin" will fit a standard beer bottle as > well as soft drink bottles (for those teetotalers over there - > *pointing*)and other standard bottles like vinegar, etc. > Paul's right, VacuVin stoppers work great for slowing down oxidation. > The only problem that I have is, like everything else, finding the > little pump when I'm done. > Steve > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To > unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools -- Michael D. Sullivan Bethesda, MD, USA ---- Start of Message 133080 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-05-05 07:58:18 Subject: RE: cranky planes (was First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing) : -----Original Message----- : From: Jonathan Peck [mailto:jpeck@m...] : Sent: 04 May 2004 14:54 : To: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] cranky planes (was First Attempt at Sharpening and : Planing) : : Has anbody else encountered the cranky plane? ya know, that rust : barrel Stanley that just won't perform like they say in the : catalogs. One suspect could be the quite-common bump behind the mouth. On my web site - Planing Notes - Flat Sole - Scraping - Scraping Technique (some site revision badly needed here!) there's a pic of one new plane that had a mild condition of this defect. Otherwise, a seriously bowed sole could prevent proper working. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 133081 ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-05-05 03:38:01 Subject: RE: Galoot Winos The low-tech approach to minimizing air in bottles is to add clean marbles to the container. I'm not sure I'd want to do this with the more permanent finishes, but it ought be okay for anything cleanable with a common solvent. Ken "Still in Slough" Meltsner ---- Start of Message 133082 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-05-05 09:21:18 Subject: Re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing Thomas Conroy wrote: > With paper, > sharpening on the forestroke will, in my experience, knock the grit > right off the paper. True if you're freehanding, but (again IME) if you're using a jig so the edge *never* dives into the plane of the abrasive you'll be ok. >>I wasn't sure how far I should go with flattening the back. How >>can I tell that the back is flat enough so that the cutting edge >>will be as sharp as possible when you finish honing the bevel?< > > > I like a very flat back over a big area, partly because of the > way some leatherworking and binding tools work, partly because a > counterbevel on the back tends to get worse and worse and it is > easier to keep the back flat than to reflatten it when it gets out > of hand. I like the back to be flat, so that I can take off any wire edge by having the blade DEAD FLAT on the fine abrasive used for this purpose. If you have to lift the blade AT ALL to take off the wire edge, a back bevel will be created and perpetuated; it may even grow over time. This is tolerable in plane blades (c.f. The David Charlesworth ruler trick), but not with chisels. Hence, a simple rule: the back should be truly flat. > This is where jigs are really useful: normally a > jig is a waste of time and a crutch that will rob you of the ability > to sharpen without a jig I have found that jigs also require some degree of insight and technique to get (really) good results. Jigs only address one aspect of sharpening difficulty - maintaining a constant bevel. There are other aspects - lots of 'em. BugBear (proud owner and maker of the sharpening jig from hell) ---- Start of Message 133083 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-05-05 09:23:15 Subject: Re: Galoot Winos Paul Coppinger wrote: > Galoots, > ...buy a VacuVin ... > > Fellow Galoot, Mike DeLong and I have been doing this for a while now and it > really works well. If you don't drink, I can supply the bottles... empty. > 8^) As a "project challenged" type, I tend to waste more finish (etc) than I use. This tip sounds like a great saving. Thank you. BugBear ---- Start of Message 133084 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-05-05 09:47:31 Subject: Re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing Jon Pile wrote: > I would like to relate one hint which is probably obvious to everyone, > but it was sure news to me...the crepe block or fine brush don't do > the trick for the finer grits; say 600 and over. They can however be > cleaned up with a clean rag (I use a paper towel; note that this may > be sacrilege) moistened with isopropyl alcohol. > > The 3M abrasives seem to really benefit from this treatment. rare-earth magnets arethe "on true way" to clean up SS. They literally SUCK the metal particles out, without scattering them around the workshop (and/or air, depending on particle size). Lee Valley offer an ingenous gadget to make this process easy: http://w- ww.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=3&page=32072&category=1,4- 2363,42356 I just use a magnet (actually a small stack of 'em) inside a spray can lid. I got the magnets from defunct disk drives. BugBear ---- Start of Message 133085 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-05-05 05:56:42 Subject: Re: Shellac Sources. > Try tapping.. "shellac.net" into your search engine.... The guy > that Paddy sold the business to is still in business and sells at > close to "paddy-prices". I just got some..... So these guys are still alive? I sent them two emails a couple months ago and never got a reply. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 133086 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-05-05 08:40:03 Subject: Stanley question Hello, Does anyone who in what years Stanley introduced their Handyman and Four Square lines?? Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 133087 ---- From: Louis Michaud Date: 2004-05-05 08:50:13 Subject: Re: Building steambox, was: Re: [oldtools] Curing Beech GG, You could also build one with scrap wood and use a kettle: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=42176&cate- gory=1,45866 I made mine about 6"x 6" x 60" with spruce planks for steaming canoe ribs. Dowels go through side to side about 1" from the bottom to keep the stock well surounded by steam. A few nails in the overlapping top and bottom provide for hinges for doors at the ends. I used a lenght of of black plastic plumbing pipe that fits over the spout of the kettle. No danger for pressure to build up and the kettle I use will provides steam for about 45 minutes. Hope this helps. Best, Louis Michaud Rimouski, Quebec ---- Start of Message 133088 ---- From: brian_welch@h... Date: 2004-05-05 10:00:57 Subject: Re: saw whet owl Bruce informed us that: >Saw Whet's only make the "saw sound" when alarmed - normally they make a >repetitive "tooting" sound. Being a backyard birder, I went on the search for the call of the saw whet owl. I finally found a web page that has both the normal call and the alarm call of the saw whet owl: http://home.earthlink.net/~arkansasapes/id18.html I have the Tom Law video, I have the files, I have a saw vise, I have a saw jointer, and, most importantly, I have piles of dull saws, but I have not put any two of the above together (yet), so I am not the best judge of whether it sounds like a saw being sharpened. If you don't care about the saw whet owl, the real purpose of this web page is purported recordings of bigfoot. Various owl recordings are there just for comparison's sake. FYI-bigfoot does not sound like a saw being sharpened! Enjoy! Brian Welch Worcester, MA ---- Start of Message 133089 ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-05-05 14:27:53 Subject: Re: Shellac Sources. Jim T wrote, "You can buy a gallon of clear (well, almost clear) shellac at the Borg for under $25. If you allow it to sit quietly for a week you can decant the top of the stuff off and leave the waxy crud behind. I use the waxy crud for sealing the ends of green wood. I don't know how wonderful this is in comparison to other methods, but it seems to work." Zinser now sells de-waxed shellac if you can find it. It hasn't arrived at the BORGs et al in my neck of the woods yet. I poured a portion of a can of the regular stuff into a mason jar and let it sit a few days. Had I decanted the good stuff off, I would have gotten maybe a third or less of the original volume of good dewaxed shellac. As to mixing my own, one must plan way to far in advance to allow for the stuff to dissolve than I am capable of doing, and LOML frowns loudly upon my use of her kitchen stuff for making a double boiler for finishes. ---- Start of Message 133090 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-05-05 15:39:43 Subject: Shellac in the UK - FS Ahem. . . I purvey finest dewaxed blonde, and equally fine dewaxed garnet shellac, together with the appropriate glass clear thinners. Made up shellac too - by the 2 litres a time Richard Thinking this isn't much of a sales pitch, but you all know what I'm talking about. --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 133091 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-05 07:53:30 Subject: Re: Shellac Sources. On Wednesday, May 5, 2004, at 07:27 AM, Jerry Palmer wrote: > my neck of the woods yet. > > I poured a portion of a can of the regular stuff into a mason jar and > let it sit a few days. Had I decanted the good stuff off, I would > have gotten maybe a third or less of the original volume of good > dewaxed shellac. > > As to mixing my own, one must plan way to far in advance to allow for > the stuff to dissolve than I am capable of doing, and LOML frowns > loudly upon my use of her kitchen stuff for making a double boiler for > finishes. > Decanting the Zinsser stuff is best done by using a siphon hose of small diameter. This way you won't disturb the wax at the bottom. You should be able to decant half a gallon of fairly clear stuff this way. And 2 quarts of shellac in 3 pound cut is far cheaper than buying flake and mixing it. Do the math. If you need to grind the flake, find a small used electric coffee or pepper grinder that you dedicate to the purpose, and keep it with your tools. This keeps SWMBO out of your shellac business. DAMHIKT Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 133092 ---- From: "Christopher Otto" Date: 2004-05-05 10:07:11 Subject: RE: Shellac Sources. Another option is http://www.woodfinishingsupplies.com/ -- I found good prices & good service the time I ordered from him... -----Original Message----- From: Derek Berwald Where does the discriminating galoot buy shellac these days?... ---- Start of Message 133093 ---- From: Brent Beach Date: 2004-05-05 08:29:29 Subject: Re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing Galoots I have been travelling for some time and it looks like in my absence no one has been defending back bevels. bugbear wrote: > If you have > to lift the blade AT ALL to take off the wire edge, > a back bevel will be created and perpetuated; it may > even grow over time. This is tolerable in plane > blades (c.f. The David Charlesworth ruler trick), > but not with chisels. If you check my bevels page http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/bevels.html you will see that use puts a small back bevel on a plane iron. You cannot avoid it. Google found several references to the "David Charlesworth ruler trick". If I understand it, rather than resting the back of the iron on the stone, you elevate it slightly by resting it on a thin metal ruler (away from the edge). If you slide the iron perpendicular to the ruler, you get a parabolic (just a guess, maybe hyperbolic) surface. I might try this. It seems to me that this would put too small a back bevel on the iron to remove the wear bevel at the edge. If you only polish the back bevel away from the edge, why bother? > Hence, a simple rule: the back should be truly flat. > > > This is where jigs are really useful: normally a > >> jig is a waste of time and a crutch that will rob you of the ability >> to sharpen without a jig Of course, some people may have different opinions on the advisability of using jigs. I use jigs whenever I can. For example, I almost never cross cut boards without using a jig - a large mitre box. > I have found that jigs also require some degree of insight > and technique to get (really) good results. > > Jigs only address one aspect of sharpening difficulty - maintaining > a constant bevel. There are other aspects - lots of 'em. I can only think of two - jig and abrasive selection? > BugBear (proud owner and maker of the sharpening jig from hell) And user? Brent ---- Start of Message 133094 ---- From: "Patrick Olguin" Date: 2004-05-05 15:20:15 Subject: RE: Shellac Sources. Gentle Shellackers, There are three sources I consider to be reputable, friendly, efficient and effective distributors of fine shellac. They are: www.hockfinishes.com - Ron Hock www.homesteadfinishing.com - Jeff Jewitt www.woodfinishingsupplies.com - Russ Ramirez I know all of these fellers personally and they all have the same goal - providing you excellent shellac/service at a reasonable price. I wouldn't hesitate buying from any of 'em. Best, Paddy - with still a decent personal stash of blonde and orange, but the beloved dark garnet is just about gone :-(. ---- Start of Message 133095 ---- From: T&J Holloway Date: 2004-05-05 09:09:42 Subject: Re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing On Wednesday, May 5, 2004, at 08:29 AM, Brent Beach wrote: > ... some people may have different opinions on the advisability of > using jigs. I use jigs whenever I can. For example, I almost never > cross cut boards without using a jig - a large mitre box. I'm with Brent here. Usually when I want to take wood off the surface of a board, instead of using a chisel freehand (as a skilled and determined anti-jigger might do, I suppose), I use a jig-like device that involves securing the blade portion of a chisel at a fixed angle to the board and allowing its edge to protrude ever so slightly from a gap in another part of the jig that has a surface parallel to the board. By sliding this device along the surface of the board, a uniformly thin slice of wood is taken away with each stroke, thus leveling off high spots and and resulting in a surface that is both smooth and, um... plane. For me this works much better than using an adze or a chisel freehand. I sort of feel inadequate for never having mastered the technique of surfacing timber freehand, and I greatly admire those who have developed such galootinous skill. It seems that others have also adopted the jig method of surfacing wood, because at tool shows and sales I see a lot of variations on the type of device I use for this. Most of them use blades that have long since lost even the vestiges of a chisel handle, and are apparently made for dedicated use in the jig-like devices. Some of these are made of wood, and others of cast iron. They come in many sizes and configurations. Many have ingenious methods of adjusting the amount the chisel-like blade protrudes from the gap in the part that is held parallel to the wood. Yep, I like jigs. I use them when sharpening blades, too. Tom Holloway, adopting Kirk Eppler's "I don't really want to work" attitude this morning. ---- Start of Message 133096 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-05-05 12:56:32 Subject: Re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing >By sliding this device along the surface of the board, a >uniformly thin slice of wood is taken away with each stroke, thus >leveling off high spots and and resulting in a surface that is both >smooth and, um... plane. Do you go bevel up, or bevel down? Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 133097 ---- From: "Patrick Olguin" Date: 2004-05-05 16:51:55 Subject: Take a Look at My Wood Gentle Galoots, Lately I've been measuring my wooddorking time in moments. If you're interesting in looking at my big wild wood, you can see it here. http://www.klownhammer.org/yetmoreprogress Like the somewhat recent article in FWW, I've found cherry to be vexing, frustrating, rewarding, pleasurable, amazing, cooperative, soft, hard, impossible and singularly beautiful. Good thing SWIATAABOC isn't anything like that. Paddy ---- Start of Message 133098 ---- From: "S. Micah Salb" Date: 2004-05-05 13:21:21 Subject: Re: Shellac Sources. > As to mixing my own, one must plan way to far in advance to allow for the stuff to dissolve than I am capable of doing, and LOML frowns loudly upon my use of her kitchen stuff for making a double boiler for finishes. What? No way. I mix it up usually the same day or the day before I use it. But a hint: Keep the container (tightly sealed!) on the kitchen table or in front of the t.v. or ANYWHERE where it is near people. And then, every time you pass by --- and tell everyone else in the household to do the same thing --- just shake it up for five seconds or so. Works like a charm. -SMS ---- Start of Message 133099 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-05 11:25:46 Subject: Re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing On Wednesday, May 5, 2004, at 08:29 AM, Brent Beach wrote: > > I have been travelling for some time and it looks like in my absence > no one has been defending back bevels. > I will defend them to the death. While you were gone I prepared 2 identical #8 planes, one with the blade back perfectly flat, and the other with a slight back bevel. I could tell no difference in the effort required to use either plane, nor in the quality of the cut. I have learned to love back bevels, and I suggest to all you galoots that you try 2 identical planes prepared as above. You just might learn something. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 133100 ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-05-05 11:29:59 Subject: re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing >> Yep, I like jigs. I use them when sharpening blades, too. >> Tom Holloway, >> adopting Kirk Eppler's "I don't really want to work" attitude this=20 >> morning. This should be in the galoot hall of fame.. ---- Start of Message 133101 ---- From: "Bill Ghio" Date: 2004-05-05 14:40:46 Subject: RE: Building steambox, was: Re: [oldtools] Curing Beech Was going to jump in here but Louis beat me to it, so I am now just an echo. I built mine out of scrap w/ a hinged door at one end. Plenty of leaky seams keep the pressure off. I use a tea kettle on a Coleman stove to provide steam. I use rubber hose rated for hot water to connect things. Total cost, including a swap meet stove was under $20 and I got to work wood while I was makin' it. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Louis Michaud [mailto:louis_michaud@u...] You could also build one with scrap wood and use a kettle: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=42176&category= 1,45866 I made mine about 6"x 6" x 60" with spruce planks for steaming canoe ribs. Dowels go through side to side about 1" from the bottom to keep the stock well surounded by steam. A few nails in the overlapping top and bottom provide for hinges for doors at the ends. I used a lenght of of black plastic plumbing pipe that fits over the spout of the kettle. No danger for pressure to build up and the kettle I use will provides steam for about 45 minutes. ---- Start of Message 133102 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-05-05 14:51:03 Subject: Parlett Farm Saturday Hi All, Anybody within driving distance of southern MD might want to think about going to the Parlett Farm Museum this Sat. The museum is an amazing spread of tools and farm related items filling several barns and other farm type structures. Besides a rare chance to see that (not normally open to the pubic), there will be a number of tailgate tool dealers set up there Sat. and a small tool auction. And on top of all that, Mr. Parlett will provide a free lunch spread of burgers, hot dogs, etc. This is all nominally being done as a congregation of east coast tool, blacksmith, steam engine, etc., groups, but a few added non-members of such groups won't be noticed. Ask for more details if needed and, if you do go, say Hi the old coot in the Donald Duck cap. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 133103 ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-05-05 12:39:18 Subject: Re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing Jim Thompson wrote: > I will defend them to the death. While you were gone I prepared 2 > identical #8 planes, one with the blade back perfectly flat, and the > other with a slight back bevel. I could tell no difference in the effort > required to use either plane, nor in the quality of the cut. I have > learned to love back bevels, and I suggest to all you galoots that you > try 2 identical planes prepared as above. You just might learn something. I haven't gone that far, but I do know that my highly untrained eye can't tell a difference in use between a flat-back and a back-beveled-back, but I can DAMN sure tell the difference in the time it took to do each of them. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 133104 ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-05-05 14:52:40 Subject: Re: Take a Look at My Wood Patrick and Cherry... > Like the somewhat recent article in FWW, I've found cherry to be vexing, > frustrating, rewarding, pleasurable, amazing, cooperative, soft, hard, > impossible and singularly beautiful. Good thing SWIATAABOC isn't anything > like that. Nice stuff Paddy! I have finished a lot of Cherry with 1) Clear Danish oil 2) Shellac (all blonde or half & half blonde and orange) 1Lb. Cut 3) Lacquer I usually knock it down with a scotch brite pad between coats, and 0000 steel wool on the final coat. Chris Cuttin' & boilin' beech blocks in West Lafayette, IN PS: To help out the uninformed (like me) I'll bite: What is SWIATAABOC? ---- Start of Message 133105 ---- From: Thomas Conroy Date: 2004-05-05 13:29:40 Subject: Re: Sharpening jigs (long) Galoots--- Oh, lor', I should have known better than to get into a discussion on sharpening. And I meant to get some work done today. I'll probably have to break up what I say into different topics. If all I sharpened was plane blades and chisels then I would probably use jigs all the time. As it is, I am lazy and use them a lot. But I sharpen a lot of tools from a lot of different crafts, and each one needs a different kind of jig that won't work for the other tools. There are jigs to hold kitchen knives and hunting knives, where the edge is roughly parallel to the midline of the blade. These won't work on chisels and planes, obviously. There are jigs to hold engravers' burins, which are like chisels and gouges but only a sixteenth of an inch thick. There are jigs to hold leather-carving swivel-knife blades, which are only an inch or so long but have to be -really- sharp, and the jigs for these have the same blade-holder that the swivel knife itself has. None of these tools can be sharpened with a plane-and-chisel jig. When I use a jig it is mostly a Veritas out-of-the-box. Trouble is, I do a lot of work with my #8, which won't fit (a Veritas only goes to 2 3/8" wide). Yeah, I could make a shopmade jig for it. That is another jig to have kicking around. I can use a Veritas jig for spokeshave blades for leather, but these need to be honed to around 20 degrees or less and it is right at the limit of the jig; commercial side-holding jugs wouldn't be able to grip a spokeshave blade if you want 20 degrees.Yeah, you could work out a shopmade jig, and you could even make it handle the #8 blades as well. A lot of what I sharpen are English-style paring knives, like bench skew chisels but, again, at 15-20 degrees for honing. These won't work in a run-on-the-stone jig like the Veritas, but I find I can just stretch a General long-arm run-on-the-bench model (I think this is a Stanley knockoff) until it will handle paring knives--- with the knife sticking out six inches from the holder, and running back and forth a hand's width over to the side of the stone, and canted over onto one of its two wheels like a stock car cornering on an unbanked track, and since it runs on the bench I have to reset it for each stone. I sharpen French-style paring knives, a lot like a scrub plane blade except that a scrub plane blade can be a bit dull and has a sturdy, obtuse angle and it still works fine. Seen a scrub plane jig recently? One that will handle blades from 1" wide to 2" wide, with edge arcs from almost flat to a third of a circle? Yes, Brent, I looked at your admirable and thought-provoking website, but if you are willing to hone scrub planes freehand on a belt sander, why not do the same for bench planes and chisels? Oh, lord, I just remembered molding planes, which I don't use, but there's a sharpening-jig problem to give you the collywobbles! And does anyone have a Universal Carving Gouge Jig, adaptable to all sweeps and radiuses of in-cannel and out-cannell gouges? Can you use it for sharpening a scythe as well? I hone bookbinders' plough blades, like a scrub plane but 1/2" wide and the back must be absolutely dead flat or the book will be cut crooked. I hone bookbinders' circular plough blades, edged all around the radius and slightly hollow on the bottom like a Japanese chisel. The circular blades are tricky enough to grab onto that I have considered making a special jig for them, even at the cost of having it kicking around the place. I hone hook-pointed clicker knives, sharpened on the concave edge like a linoleum knife but a lot more delicate. I have knives curved gently along their length, at right angles to the curvature of a gouge, "flat" on the bottom from side-to-side, where the 3" long edge is curved in profile like a sloyd knife and curved along its length and in consequence the edge will lie in absolutely no plane, no matter what the orientation. When Jim Thompson showed us the big curved and hook knives he made, he forgot to show the jig he uses to sharpen them--- and, Jim, can you use the same jig for sharpening the little hooked knife you were inspired by? I love and can sharpen and use saddler's round knives, though I don't get to use them often... (Slight distraction while I contemplate the charms of my beloved.) A round knife starts out as a half-circle of steel with a 5" diameter, and with a broad, sensuous walnut handle sticking back from the center of the half-circle. It is thick at the center and back but curves down imperceptably to the edge, a cannel grind like an axe, no wimpy flat-and-rigid bevels here, down to an edge that shames a microtome. A good saddler-- a round-knife cutter-- will use it for 95% of his work, from cutting out saddle skirts a quarter inch thick to paring down onlays to paper thickness, skiving chisel-edges for joining, making stitching grooves a milimeter deep. A saddler will use and sharpen his favorite round knife from when it is new and 5" in diameter down until it is a stub a quarter inch long (I have one like that), maintaining the curves of the cross-section and edge all the while, and every round knife I have seen had taken up a different profile under sharpening and use, some wide and worn down in front of the handle, some narrow and long in front of the hand, some peaked like a New England roof, bearing the print of the owner's hand and personality more than any other tools I can think of except maybe the file-cutting hammers I once saw a picture of, which had been used by the same man for seventy years until they were molded to his hand as if they had been made of wet clay that squooshed out of his grip.... Whew, phone call came in just as I was starting to rave and it broke the trance and chant... all right, I was raving for a while, I wasn't just starting... all right, quite a while... The point is that if you do much sharpening and you sharpen a variety of tools and rely on jigs, you need a variety of jigs to handle them. Lots and lots of time making jigs, lots of cost buying them or buying materials for them, lots of space to store them, lots of tweaking of each one to get it to work right. Look at the cost and storage for a Tormak grinder with and without its full complement of attachments. In the long run it is less fuss just to learn to sharpen without the crutch. Of course, this is the Porch, and I may have shot off my own foot here; probably just convinced the few remaining non-jig-users out there of their overwhelming desirability. Now let me tell you about this albatross I have around my neck... Tom Conroy Berkeley __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 133106 ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 2004-05-05 16:45:30 Subject: Parallel Jaw Wanted Galoots, I have a Galoot tool (well, it is manual, not "tailed" Stringing Machine) that I use to string tennis racquets. In the stringing process, there is the occasional need for pliers. Conventional pliers like a good needle nose mostly work fine, but I'd like to switch to "parallel jaw" pliers. Anyone got a parallel jaw plier for sale - in great working condition and looks doesn't matter? If so, contact me off the list. *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * *********************************************** ---- Start of Message 133107 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-05-05 14:25:33 Subject: Re: scrapers Hi Jonathan-- I believe it was in the area now known as Al-Falluja, back when it was the cradle of civilization. best to all galoots, everywhere; GAM in Seattle, the current C of C... --- Jonathan Peck wrote: > Hello GG's > > Does anybody know when scrapers first started being used in > woodworking and in > what country? > > Regards > Jonathan > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 133108 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-05 14:29:41 Subject: Re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing Amen, Brother Michael!! Amen!! And that is the lesson to be learned! On Wednesday, May 5, 2004, at 12:39 PM, Michael Campbell wrote: > > I haven't gone that far, but I do know that my highly untrained eye > can't tell a difference in use between a flat-back and a > back-beveled-back, but I can DAMN sure tell the difference in the > time it took to do each of them. > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 133109 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-05-05 14:34:26 Subject: Re: Take a Look at My Wood >http://www.klownhammer.org/yetmoreprogress > Light! The secret for cherry is light. Not vicious sun like afternoon, but soft clear gentle light, like in the mornings. I like to put cherry out early and then bring it in by 11. You could maybe make it till 8:30 or 9:00 before it hits 200 degrees down there in that coastal desert suburb of Hollyweird. 8^) Try that for some days and then tell me what you think. It gets richer everyday until you just can't take it! yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 133110 ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-05-05 17:56:06 Subject: Re: saw whet owl > I finally found a web page that has both the normal call > and the alarm call of the saw whet owl: > > http://home.earthlink.net/~arkansasapes/id18.html > > I have the Tom Law video, I have the files, I have a saw vise, > I have a saw jointer, and, most importantly, I have piles of > dull saws, but I have not put any two of the above together (yet), > so I am not the best judge of whether it sounds like a saw being > sharpened. Yeah, that's a fair aural description --- the second version especially. Mix in a dash of fingernail-on-the-blackboard effect and it would be even closer. Probably not something you want to be doing in the living area of an efficiency apartment with your spouse or significant other in the bedroom -- trying to get some sleep. Charlie Driggs Newark DE ---- Start of Message 133111 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-06 00:30:18 Subject: RE: Stanley question Please keep the answer to this one public as I missed the answer the last time around. I've got a Stanley Handyman crosscut saw sitting on the wall and been wondering about it. > [Original Message] > From: Jonathan Peck > To: oldtools > Date: 5/5/2004 7:40:30 AM > Subject: [oldtools] Stanley question > > Hello, > > Does anyone who in what years Stanley introduced their Handyman and > Four Square lines?? > > Regards > Jonathan > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 133112 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-06 00:48:06 Subject: RE: Galoot Winos I've heard of people using Baking Soda and Vinegar mixed in a large bowl. Pour the invisible gas over the open liquid finish can. Same as bloxygen and such. I haven't tried it just yet. I usually keep a variety of glass jars on hand and put the finish in the appropriate one or several to keep the air exposure to a minimum. Ditto with paint. Nice to have a few baby jars for quick touchups. As for wine, I do a lot of cooking and like several types on hand but don't want them going bad due to oxidation so my solution is to put a quarter inch of regular vegetable oil in the wine bottle. When I cook I simply put my thumb over the hole, flip over, let the oil float out of the way, dispense what is desired, and then back on the shelf. I've got the same bottle of Marsala wine I bought for valentines day for making Chicken Marsala over a year ago and it is just as fresh as the day I opened it. This way I can have a good sized cooking wine assortment and not have to be concerned about any of them going bad or rushing to use them up before they go bad. > [Original Message] > From: Paul Coppinger > To: oldtools > Date: 5/4/2004 5:00:11 PM > We all have wasted part of a container of finish because it hardened or > dried in the can. Never again! ---- Start of Message 133113 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-05-05 23:06:30 Subject: RE: Galoot Winos --- John Sawchak wrote: I've heard of people using Baking Soda and Vinegar mixed in a large bowl. Pour the invisible gas over the open liquid finish can. Same as bloxygen and such. I haven't tried it just yet. Hi GGs: Jim Thompson sent me a note outlining this procedure, and I have to say, it makes sense to me---anyone can see from the evaporation of dry ice that CO2 is heavier than air, so it'll pour very nicely, visible or not. The only question is: does the reaction of vinegar and soda really produce pure CO2? I know that if you dribble a bit of thinner into a can of oil-base a few minutes before closing the lid, the evaporating spirits will lift the oxygen up out of the can, and help prevent skinning---I have long experience with this procedure working well, not counting my Dad's experience, and he taught me when I was a kid. I bet the same thing'd work with alcohol and shellac: a few drops of alcohol on top, then once you can really smell the stuff rising out, cap the container. I'll try the science fair method soon, if I don't hear different advice--GAM of Seattle __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 133114 ---- From: T&J Holloway Date: 2004-05-05 23:09:55 Subject: Re: Stanley question Bob is kind enough to share DATAMP information with the group, so in that spirit I have pulled Walter's big 1996 Stanley book off the shelf above my computer, and checked this out. Here is a summary (from pp. 44-45): Apparently Stanley acquired the rights to the "Handyman" trademark (along with Yankee) with their acquisition of North Brothers in 1946. In the post WWII era Stanley paid more attention to the home DIY market, and "around 1954 Stanley launched a new full line of moderately priced items they trademarked as the "Handyman." ...Quality was lessened somewhat from the Four Square and Defiance [lines] in order to compete with the home owner workshop and repair products flooding the market. Dozens of tools were part of the Handyman series, including about ten planes." Walter goes on to say that some of this line were in production for 20 years, through the 1970s. The "Four Square" line of mid-priced tools was introduced earlier, in 1923. "This small line of 44 basic tools was geared toward the home owner market....The earliest Four Square planes were japanned and had the Four Square logo applied as a decal on the side of the plane body or handle. In the 1930s the planes were finished in grey with the Four Square logo cast into the lever caps....The Four Square line was officially discontinued in 1935 but was sold until stocks were exhausted. They were replaced by the greatly expanded line of Defiance planes." (p. 42) HTH, Tom Holloway On Wednesday, May 5, 2004, at 10:30 PM, John Sawchak wrote: > Please keep the answer to this one public as I missed the answer the > last > time around. I've got a Stanley Handyman crosscut saw sitting on the > wall > and been wondering about it. > >> [Original Message] >> From: Jonathan Peck >> To: oldtools >> Date: 5/5/2004 7:40:30 AM >> Subject: [oldtools] Stanley question >> >> Hello, >> >> Does anyone who in what years Stanley introduced their Handyman and >> Four Square lines?? >> >> Regards >> Jonathan ---- Start of Message 133115 ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-05-06 02:11:17 Subject: Re: Galoot Winos GG's I still swear by Bloxygen. It's inexpensive, goes a long way and eliminates that "skin" that often forms on top of the paint or product you are saving. I used to use Baby Food Jars until we ran out of Babies. So, now I find that Viagra containers work just fine for small amounts of paint, dyes, and stains. I collect as many as I can as fast as I can. For those of you that still like the Baby Food Jars you might check this one out. It works for me. http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/member.php Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Sawchak" To: "oldtools" Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 10:48 PM Subject: RE: [oldtools] Galoot Winos > I've heard of people using Baking Soda and Vinegar mixed in a large bowl. > Pour the invisible gas over the open liquid finish can. Same as bloxygen > and such. I haven't tried it just yet. I usually keep a variety of glass > jars on hand and put the finish in the appropriate one or several to keep > the air exposure to a minimum. Ditto with paint. Nice to have a few baby > jars for quick touchups. > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 133116 ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-05-06 02:20:32 Subject: Re: Galoot Winos Ooops . . . try this photo > GG's > > I still swear by Bloxygen. It's inexpensive, goes a long way and eliminates > that "skin" that often forms on top of the paint or product you are saving. > I used to use Baby Food Jars until we ran out of Babies. So, now I find that > Viagra containers work just fine for small amounts of paint, dyes, and > stains. I collect as many as I can as fast as I can. For those of you that > still like the Baby Food Jars you might check this one out. It works for me. > > http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/categories.php?cat_id=27 > > Regards, > Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) > Dyer, Indiana > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Sawchak" > To: "oldtools" > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 10:48 PM > Subject: RE: [oldtools] Galoot Winos > > > > I've heard of people using Baking Soda and Vinegar mixed in a large bowl. > > Pour the invisible gas over the open liquid finish can. Same as bloxygen > > and such. I haven't tried it just yet. I usually keep a variety of glass > > jars on hand and put the finish in the appropriate one or several to keep > > the air exposure to a minimum. Ditto with paint. Nice to have a few baby > > jars for quick touchups. > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 133117 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-05-06 09:25:12 Subject: Re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing Michael Campbell wrote: > I haven't gone that far, but I do know that my highly untrained eye > can't tell a difference in use between a flat-back and a > back-beveled-back, but I can DAMN sure tell the difference in the > time it took to do each of them. We (the assembled galoots) have (IMHO) a desparate need to come up with a name (or two) to distinguish between the tiny back bevel involved in the "David Charlesworth Ruler Trick" that facilitates back (pseudo)-flattening and larger (5 degrees and better) back bevels that have a significant effect on the effective cutting angle in a bevel down plane. It doesn't help that they're both part of a contiuous spectrum of potential back bevel angles. Otherwise people (especially newcomers to the Porch) are going to get woefully confused. BugBear ---- Start of Message 133118 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-05-06 09:32:59 Subject: Re: Sharpening jigs (long) Thomas Conroy wrote: > The point is that if you do much sharpening and you sharpen a variety > of tools and rely on jigs, you need a variety of jigs to handle them. Speaking as a member in good standing of the SGFH, I regard jigs as tools, and hand tools at that. I like 'em, and have a variety (*) of 'em (as you say). I don't regard this as a problem, although SWMBO has expressed some concern :-) BugBear * although anyone with a cheap Stanley #200 (**) is welcome to contact me ** large, out of production sharpening jig, Jeff. ---- Start of Message 133119 ---- From: Stephen Andrews Date: 2004-05-06 10:44:26 Subject: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing Well I'm with Jim on this one. Firstly I have never had any success flatten= ing=20 the backs of plane blades. It takes forever and if the back is convex i.e.= =20 has a crown in the middle, then all I do is rock it about and make it worse= .=20 The problem is made worse by the fact than a plane blade is thin and=20 slightly flexible so in many cases you press the back down onto the=20 abrasive material and remove a given amount of material from the=20 entire surface of the back. When you lift it off it springs back to its=20 original position and is no different than when you started.=20 Secondly I made my workbench out of Sapele wood and had a lot of tear=20 out due to interlocking grain. Having searched through the olde toole=20 archive I got the answer to my problem. Put a back bevel on. So I got an=20 old plane blade, gave it a quick sharpen and put a 15 degree back bevel=20 on it. Shoved the blade in the plane and shoved the plane on the wood.=20 What I got was silky smooth wood with no tear out. Then I got out the=20 Ron Hock blade that I had never managed to flatten and did the same=20 for that. Superb!=20 Basically the benefits are=20 It=92s quicker. You can skip the hours of flattening.=20 You can vary the back bevel angle on different blades so you can have some = set up for the York pitch.=20 With the York pitch you get great results on difficult wood.=20 The time taken to sharpen is reduced because sharpening a blade from two si= des reduces the amount of material removed.=20 It=92s not difficult or time consuming to try it out. You have nothing to l= oose.=20 That=92s me done.=20 Stephen Andrews who has back bevels on most of his bench planes. --=20 Whatever you Wanadoo: http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/ This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at: http= ://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm ---- Start of Message 133120 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-05-06 10:56:29 Subject: Sharpening jigs (short) Jigs for sharpening, jigs for slicing off thin bits of wood. . Bosh ! This isn't how the West was won or Louis XV got his furniture made. be a man - learn to do without the props. Axe and adze made the wooden walls of England and discovered America. Slicks removed the splinters from the floors and jointed the beams of the Great Halls and Barns. Aye! Axe, adze, slick, saw, drawknife and auger. All else is wussy city dweller stuff. Richard Going to extremes of long ago. But when you think about it, all manner of ideas stem from the notion of 'jigs' - they allow less skilled men to carry out work to a standard, but you need enough capital to have some of it lying around tied up in jigs. Capital meaning not only cash outlay but the opportunity cost of making jigs when you could be doing paying work. There's no rosy view about the skilled men who used 'sharp on a stick' and nothing else - they were equally tied to production, and their 'capital investment' was the huge amount of time it took to become proficient enough to produce, say, the likes of a Robert Thomson table top from nought but an adze. I've seen and used a Thomson table, and could sit there and *look* at it and marvel at the skill that produced it - but at what cost in time. Time is nowadays money, instead of being something that goes by as you produce a piece of highest quality. Consider that a widespread adoption of the 'planing jig' would have led to flat surfaces, where before all surfaces rippled, and caught the light, and reflected it back now in one place, now in another. Doubtless many thought the dead flat surface was so boring and machine made. "These new fangled planing jigs have taken the life out of our furniture" they would say - "It's not near as good as it were in mi Dads day - no character" and so on down the ages until now we invest huge amounts of effort in a factory full of jigs that produce flat pack furniture direct from ground up reconstituted tree with barely a human hand in site. Methinks it behoves us of the Galoot turn of mind to choose carefully when we select tools and consider jigs - not turning away from the means of simplfying or speeding up our work, but ever conscious of the need to acquire the skills to differentiate our work from the output of the flat pack farm. A galoot Yorkshireman having a bit of a rant. --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 133121 ---- From: "Kaye, Danny" Date: 2004-05-06 11:28:54 Subject: RE: Sharpening jigs (short) Y2FuIEkgaGF2ZSB0aGUgcmVzdCBvZiB5b3VyIHRvb2xzIHRoZW4sIHBsZWFzZSA6KQ0KIA0KRGFu bnkNCg0KCS0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tIA0KCUZyb206IFJpY2hhcmQuV2lsc29u QHNhbHZlc2VuLmNvbSBbbWFpbHRvOlJpY2hhcmQuV2lsc29uQHNhbHZlc2VuLmNvbV0gDQoJU2Vu dDogVGh1IDA2LzA1LzIwMDQgMTA6NTYgDQoJVG86IG9sZHRvb2xzIA0KCUNjOiBvbGR0b29scyAN CglTdWJqZWN0OiBbb2xkdG9vbHNdIFNoYXJwZW5pbmcgamlncyAoc2hvcnQpDQoJDQoJDQoNCglK aWdzIGZvciBzaGFycGVuaW5nLCBqaWdzIGZvciBzbGljaW5nIG9mZiB0aGluIGJpdHMgb2Ygd29v ZC4gLg0KCQ0KCUJvc2ggIQ0KCQ0KCQ0KCVRoaXMgaXNuJ3QgaG93IHRoZSBXZXN0IHdhcyB3b24g b3IgTG91aXMgWFYgZ290IGhpcyBmdXJuaXR1cmUgbWFkZS4NCgkNCgkNCgliZSBhIG1hbiAtIGxl YXJuIHRvIGRvIHdpdGhvdXQgdGhlIHByb3BzLg0KCQ0KCQ0KCUF4ZSBhbmQgYWR6ZSBtYWRlIHRo 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( Square I'm ok on but was wondering about the Level & Plumb ) I could copy what I see around but would rather approach the project from the tool side.... -- Tom Thornton Cincinnati #3, Morristown N.J. USA Collector of old tools, specializing in Hand Cranked Grindstones ---- Start of Message 133123 ---- From: "Tony Zaffuto" Date: 2004-05-06 07:04:05 Subject: Stanley miter box guide bushing Anyone out there have either a Stanley 100 (400?) miter vise machine or Stanley (2)358 miter box for parts? I'm missing a bearing/screw guide for a new toy for the latest addition to my arsenal of miter boxes. The bearing screws appear the same for box boxes. Thanks! Tony Z. ---- Start of Message 133124 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-05-06 13:20:16 Subject: tool cleaning question Anybody know a way to get cement/concrete splashes (old and well dried) off surfaces (e.g. painted tools). BugBear ---- Start of Message 133125 ---- From: "Andy Seaman" Date: 2004-05-06 13:34:58 Subject: re: tool cleaning question Bugbear, I have used hydrochloric acid to etch concrete. As I'm sure you know, HCL can be obtained as muriatic acid from home and garden stores. Muriatic has an HCL concentration of about 35%, so it should be plenty strong. Note that HCL also etches most metals, especially alloys containing zinc. Application of a wax resist to surrounding metal areas might be in order prior to etching. Good luck and don't forget to practice safe handling and disposal techniques if you take this route. -Andy ---- Start of Message 133126 ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-05-06 13:18:30 Subject: re: Sharpening jigs (short) Excellent thoughts on a subject very dear to my heart. Whether tailed or tailless, there are so many gadgets out there to be bought or made that one has to wonder where could all of that be kept in such an order as to be immediately retrieveable as one or the other is needed. Seems that every one of the mags has a new article every month on making the ultimate this or that jig that every shop must have in order to accurize or speed up your work. And every mag every month has an article on the newest must have jig or apparatus costing in excess of my mortgage payment which, after hours of set-up time, can help you create the perfect M & T, or wonderfully easy DTs or what-have-you. And the forums are full of folks touting the great benefits of this new gadget they just spent the baby's milk money on that effortlessly sharpens this or that, or makes setting up a tool to within thousandths of an inch of accuracy to cut material that can change in tenths of an inch overnight given a good rain storm, or a hot dry day. Now, I've bought at least my share of gadgets over time in an effort to by-pass the learning curve toward being proficient with one or another tool, and have found them to produce well below what was expected. Now, with the exception of a few jigs that get a whole lot of use, set-ups, what there are, are one-off things done with scrap and clamps, which are disassembled after use to be recycled into the next one-off set-up. But I guess there are enough folks out there with the time, space, and money to support a market for the store bought gadgets. As for me, I would rather spend those resources on making stuff. Jerry ---- Start of Message 133127 ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-05-06 06:44:16 Subject: Re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing bugbear wrote: > Michael Campbell wrote: > >> I haven't gone that far, but I do know that my highly untrained eye >> can't tell a difference in use between a flat-back and a >> back-beveled-back, but I can DAMN sure tell the difference in the time >> it took to do each of them. > > > We (the assembled galoots) have (IMHO) a desparate > need to come up with a name (or two) to distinguish between > the tiny back bevel involved in the > "David Charlesworth Ruler Trick" that facilitates > back (pseudo)-flattening I was talking about that one. Sorry. And I use a toothpick, not a ruler, but point taken. > and larger (5 degrees and better) > back bevels that have a significant effect on the effective > cutting angle in a bevel down plane. Definitely not that one. I haven't learned yet to crawl; I'm not up for flying. Is "micro-back-bevel" too overloaded a term? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 133128 ---- From: "Bramel, Jim" Date: 2004-05-06 10:52:05 Subject: ebay url Check out this vintage "wrench" that did not get any bids. I would have liked to have the iron piece and make new=20 handles but not for $19.99 + shipping. Maybe instead of calling everything a leather workers tool it is a wrench now. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3D3289848158 ---- Start of Message 133129 ---- From: Steven Longley Date: 2004-05-06 08:05:12 Subject: Re: [OldTools] Galoot Winos Since this thread has turned to CO2… Here is something that I do -- don’t laugh -- on the other hand go ahead because you will anyway. When I am closing up a can of finish or paint or anything that might oxidize, I take a deep breath and exhale into the can before sealing it. My thoughts on this, and I‘m sure that I read it somewhere, is that the carbon dioxide in your breath will displace most of the oxygen in the can and settle to the content surface to help slow down the curing process. I would welcome any comments from those of a more scientific bent on the porch. Steve in Dallas Lets just say.. It’s free. ---- Start of Message 133130 ---- From: "Joe Skehan" Date: 2004-05-06 09:06:55 Subject: Re: ebay url What is it? >>> "Bramel, Jim" 5/6/2004 8:52:05 AM >>> Check out this vintage "wrench" that did not get any bids. I would have liked to have the iron piece and make new handles but not for $19.99 + shipping. Maybe instead of calling everything a leather workers tool it is a wrench now. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3289848158 ---- Start of Message 133131 ---- From: "M.Stadulis" Date: 2004-05-06 11:11:07 Subject: Re: [OldTools] Galoot Winos Does it make a difference if you just ate something flavored heavily with garlic...? ;o) Regards, Michael Stadulis Gloucester County, New Jersey... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Longley" To: "oldtools" Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 11:05 AM Subject: Re:[oldtools] [OldTools] Galoot Winos > > Since this thread has turned to CO2. > > Here is something that I do -- don't laugh -- on the > other hand go ahead because you will anyway. > > When I am closing up a can of finish or paint or > anything that might oxidize, I take a deep breath and > exhale into the can before sealing it. My thoughts > on this, and I'm sure that I read it somewhere, is > that the carbon dioxide in your breath will displace > most of the oxygen in the can and settle to the > content surface to help slow down the curing process. > > > I would welcome any comments from those of a more > scientific bent on the porch. > > Steve in Dallas > > Lets just say.. It's free. > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 133132 ---- From: "Daniel E.L. Yurwit" Date: 2004-05-06 11:16:58 Subject: Re: ebay url The "remains" of a patented handle for a (barn) auger bit. One handle MIA, the other in dire need of an oldtool medic. Once restored, you twist one of the handles to lock and unlock a tapered tang in place. Sort of the "55" of the barn-raising set. Dan, in NJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Skehan" To: "oldtools" Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [oldtools] ebay url > What is it? > > >>> "Bramel, Jim" 5/6/2004 8:52:05 AM >>> > Check out this vintage "wrench" that did not get any bids. > I would have liked to have the iron piece and make new > handles but not for $19.99 + shipping. Maybe instead of > calling everything a leather workers tool it is a wrench > now. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3289848158 > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 133133 ---- From: Al Perreault Date: 2004-05-06 11:18:15 Subject: Re: [OldTools] Galoot Winos Steve, Do you take the big breath, with the lid on, or off the container? Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, MA Feeling a bit light headed myself. > > > > Since this thread has turned to CO2. > > > > Here is something that I do -- don't laugh -- on the > > other hand go ahead because you will anyway. > > > > When I am closing up a can of finish or paint or > > anything that might oxidize, I take a deep breath and > > exhale into the can before sealing it. My thoughts > > on this, and I'm sure that I read it somewhere, is > > that the carbon dioxide in your breath will displace > > most of the oxygen in the can and settle to the > > content surface to help slow down the curing process. > > > > > > I would welcome any comments from those of a more > > scientific bent on the porch. > > > > Steve in Dallas ---- Start of Message 133134 ---- From: Brent Beach Date: 2004-05-06 08:34:59 Subject: Re: [OldTools] Galoot Winos Good old google Nitrogen N2 78.084% Oxygen O2 20.947% Human Respiration The air that leaves a person's lungs during exhalation contains 14% oxygen and 4.4% carbon dioxide. Brent Steven Longley wrote: > Since this thread has turned to CO2… > > Here is something that I do -- don’t laugh -- on the > other hand go ahead because you will anyway. > > When I am closing up a can of finish or paint or > anything that might oxidize, I take a deep breath and > exhale into the can before sealing it. My thoughts > on this, and I‘m sure that I read it somewhere, is > that the carbon dioxide in your breath will displace > most of the oxygen in the can and settle to the > content surface to help slow down the curing process. > > > I would welcome any comments from those of a more > scientific bent on the porch. > > Steve in Dallas > > Lets just say.. It’s free. > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 133135 ---- From: T&J Holloway Date: 2004-05-06 08:33:16 Subject: Re: Tool plans Tom-- Get the Astragal reprint of Moxon's 1678 MECHANICK EXERCISES. Plate 8, opposite p. 118, includes a drawing of a level--the kind sometimes called an "A" level, which has a small plumb bob hanging from a string at the top of the A shape, perpendicular to the bottom bar. Tom Holloway On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 06:56 AM, tomthornton wrote: > The Freemasons ( or which I am one) use, as symbols of their > offices a wooden square, a wooden level and a wooden plumb > > Has anyone seen a pattern where I could make each of these tools ? > ( Square I'm ok on but was wondering about the Level & Plumb ) > > I could copy what I see around but would rather approach the > project from the tool side.... > -- > Tom Thornton > Cincinnati #3, Morristown N.J. USA > Collector of old tools, > specializing in Hand Cranked Grindstones ---- Start of Message 133136 ---- From: "Andy Seaman" Date: 2004-05-06 15:40:06 Subject: Re: [OldTools] Galoot Winos snippage: Gotta second Brent on this one. I'm sitting here at work with my nifty and expensive little oxygen detector. I use this baby when I enter confined spaces to let me know if there's enough O2 or if I need to bring my own. My ambient O2 is currently at about 20.55%. When I take a deep breath, hold it for a second, and exhale into the detector, I get down to about 17.90%. I'm fairly certain that this thing is accurate, since it's calibrated monthly. Brent's numbers are a bit more optimistic if you're trying to preserve your finishes though. -Andy ---- Start of Message 133137 ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-05-06 11:07:56 Subject: Beech Boil Update Esteemed GGs Well, we are entering day 3 of the Great West Lafayette Beech Boil, and several folks have asked for an update. Here's what I know so far. 1) A large pot (12" diameter & 8" deep) is serving as the boiler. Depending on the size of stock I can get 3 - 6 pieces into it with circulation space between the pieces. 2) I have been boiling 1 hr. per inch of thickness plus 30 - 60 minutes for good measure. Good strong rolling boil. 3) Water turns a deep red quickly. Beech turns pink. White stoves look pretty messy! (I "de-SWMBOed" some years ago and have not yet "re-SWMBOed", and my dog is not at all upset, so everything is cool here). Be careful with the steam, hot water and 212 degree Beech. All can cause pain. 4) Weight of the wood before boiling is the same as the weight after boiling. (One reference says Green Beech sapwood is 72% moisture.) My moisture meter maxes out at 30% so I do not know actual % moisture in this wood, but I have weighed and am oven drying some scraps to try to get a handle on it. 5) After 2 days, about 20% of boiled pieces are showing some checking. I had to cut the blanks fairly short (about 10.5") in order to get them into the pot, so I may loose a few. I have taken to coating the ends with "Green Wood Sealer" which I got from Craft Supplies long ago. It is my most effective sealer when I am green turning bowls. My other methods are paraffin burnished into the wood with the lathe spinning, plastic grocery bags, paper bags, in decreasing order of slowing the drying process. This Green Wood Sealer usually takes about 25% longer to dry than the other methods. 6) A 1" thick test piece weighed 2lb, 8oz before boiling for 2 hours, and the same after boiling. This morning (48 hrs. after boiling) that piece weighed 2lb. 6oz. (the ends are not coated on this piece). 7) On about 20% of the blanks I have just coated the ends without boiling, so there will be some stock for comparison to air drying. 8) I don't have a kiln, and don't have space for a solar kiln outside (thanks for several references on the solar kiln). FWW (#120) has a large dehumidifier kiln that I may be able to adapt. I am thinking of making a plywood box (2' x 3' x 6') that would contain both the dehumidifier and stickered stock. Add a baffle to assure air circulation, Styrofoam insulation and a 100 watt light bulb for heat. I thought I would add a thermometer and check it every day. Comments, thoughts and ideas are most welcome and would be appreciated. 9) I have Googled and searched through all FWW looking for plans for a small light bulb powered kiln to no avail. If anybody know of such a plan I would appreciate the reference or url. 10. Again, I appreciate all the suggestions and ideas already received, and will post a summary at the end of the project. 11. No, I don't think that I am going to have a whole lot of Beech left over, but if I do I will post it as a FS here on a first come, first served basis. Thanks! Chris Berger, who has all windows open on a beautiful day. Boiled Beech is pretty pungent, but shows no toxic signs. ---- Start of Message 133138 ---- From: Bill Kasper Date: 2004-05-06 09:08:00 Subject: Re: First Attempt at Sharpening and Planing small, charlesworth-style bevel: ruler bevel larger, significantly effective bevel: bigbackbevel? BugBevel? nah, how about high-angle backbevel? i dunno. pass the spittoon, i have to change my chaw. bill felton, ca On May 6, 2004, at 1:25 AM, bugbear wrote: > > We (the assembled galoots) have (IMHO) a desparate > need to come up with a name (or two) to distinguish between > the tiny back bevel involved in the > "David Charlesworth Ruler Trick" that facilitates > back (pseudo)-flattening and larger (5 degrees and better) > back bevels that have a significant effect on the effective > cutting angle in a bevel down plane. ---- Start of Message 133139 ---- From: Bill Kasper Date: 2004-05-06 09:16:17 Subject: Re: Stanley miter box guide bushing tony, i am sorry, but i don't. but i do have a question. i have a 358 box, and am wondering what kind of screws hold on the sacrificial board. it's pretty thin (a 3/8" piece of maple... anyone? thanks. bill On May 6, 2004, at 4:04 AM, Tony Zaffuto wrote: > Anyone out there have either a Stanley 100 (400?) miter vise machine or > Stanley (2)358 miter box for parts? I'm missing a bearing/screw guide > for a > new toy for the latest addition to my arsenal of miter boxes. The > bearing > screws appear the same for box boxes. ---- Start of Message 133140 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-05-06 17:39:12 Subject: Re: Sharpening jigs (short) Hmm Colonial Dick Hucker wonders about Noah. . . Putting aside the religious baloney touted as fact, and looking at, say Egyptian artefacts of that period, it is quite popssible for bronze tools to have been in use for dealing with major timbers. Holes can be produced using bronze tools of the flat bit configuration. For drawknife, you could read 'knife' though again, a bronze implement would be possible. The notion of a huge wooden ship constructed on mediaevel lines which is the one painted in the story books so often would be inappropriate for the period. I wonder when mankind *did* first start making and using something the size of a boat - the investment in time for even a dug out canoe, built with fire or tools, must have been enormous. And what would you do with a hollow log anyway=3F "hey - you seen what crazy Eddy is doing over there - taking all the middle out of that log - been doing it all summer " "haha - he reckons its going to carry him over the river - as if a regular log doesn't do that. . ." - Well, something like that anyway.. > But if Noah built the Ark as we are told. . >. . what tools did he use some 4000 yrs. ago=3F --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 133141 ---- From: "Bramel, Jim" Date: 2004-05-06 13:06:47 Subject: RE: Sharpening jigs (short) I resent both of these statements. Are we going to allow this=20 on this list? -----Original Message----- From: Richard.Wilson@s... [mailto:Richard.Wilson@s...]=20 Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 11:39 AM To: oldtools Cc: oldtools@c... Subject: Re: [oldtools] Sharpening jigs (short) Putting aside the religious baloney touted as fact,=20 But if Noah built the Ark as we are told. . --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail.=20 Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 133142 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-05-06 13:07:19 Subject: Re: Sharpening jigs (short) >I wonder when mankind *did* first start making and using something the >size of a boat - the investment in time for even a dug out canoe, built >with fire or tools, must have been enormous. And what would you do with a >hollow log anyway? I believe it was the Greeks. They even went so far as to build there own navy. They were sorta the Stanley Tools of their time http://www.showgate.com/medea/ships/grkship1.gif Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 133143 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-05-06 18:13:29 Subject: RE: Sharpening jigs (short) Jim chides >I resent both of these statements. Are we going to allow this >on this list=3F >>Putting aside the religious baloney touted as fact, >>But if Noah built the Ark as we are told. . My apologies Jim I had *no* intention of offending anyones religious beliefs, or any other sort of beliefs. and no, we don't allow inflammatory talk of that sort on this list. It's the friendliest, most courteous place on the internet, and I'll do a week of spitoon duty (no posting) to keep it so.. Richard humbled in Northants. . "Bramel, Jim" 06/05/04 18:06 Please respond to "Bramel, Jim" To: "oldtools" cc: Subject: RE: [oldtools] Sharpening jigs (short) I resent both of these statements. Are we going to allow this on this list=3F -----Original Message----- From: Richard.Wilson@s... [mailto:Richard.Wilson@s...] Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 11:39 AM To: oldtools Cc: oldtools@c... Subject: Re: [oldtools] Sharpening jigs (short) Putting aside the religious baloney touted as fact, But if Noah built the Ark as we are told. . --------------------------------------------------------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 133144 ---- From: "Bramel, Jim" Date: 2004-05-06 13:16:46 Subject: RE: Sharpening jigs (short) Accepted. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Richard.Wilson@s... [mailto:Richard.Wilson@s...]=20 Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 12:13 PM To: Bramel, Jim Cc: oldtools@c... Subject: RE: [oldtools] Sharpening jigs (short) Jim chides >I resent both of these statements. Are we going to allow this=20 >on this list? >>Putting aside the religious baloney touted as fact,=20 >>But if Noah built the Ark as we are told. . My apologies Jim I had *no* intention of offending anyones religious beliefs, or any other=20 sort of beliefs.=20 and no, we don't allow inflammatory talk of that sort on this list. It's=20 the friendliest, most courteous place on the internet, and I'll do a week=20 of spitoon duty (no posting) to keep it so..=20 Richard=20 humbled in Northants. .=20 ---- Start of Message 133145 ---- From: "dcohen" Date: 2004-05-07 13:24:14 Subject: RE: need a little help " I washed my Shapton's with dish soap, soaking for an hour, and then=0D packed them in saw dust. They worked good at first, but then bogged=0D down again. I'm afraid the oil is in too deep".=0D =0D Jonathan, I am not familiar with the Shapton's (I use King waterstones) b= ut I was wondering whether it was possible to slice off the top layer of the affected stone (either by grinding, sanding, or cutting)? If the oil has = not penetrated to lower levels, then the stone may yet be saved. What do you think?=0D =0D Regards from Perth=0D =0D Derek Cohen ---- Start of Message 133146 ---- From: newworldmagic@c... Date: 2004-05-06 17:23:17 Subject: Re: Beech Boil Update the "lightbulb kiln" that I used to use was just a large box witha bare bulb on an extension cord. I've used old steamer trunks, and armoire, and a "portable closet" (A wire frame with a plastic cover that zips open), all with varying degrees of success. The trade off is heat retention vs air circulation. I gothte best results with an old amoir with the door left cracked open about 1/2 inch. The amoir itself didn't do to well though...... --JD > Esteemed GGs > > Well, we are entering day 3 of the Great West Lafayette Beech Boil, > and several folks have asked for an update. Here's what I know so far. > > 1) A large pot (12" diameter & 8" deep) is serving as the boiler. > Depending on the size of stock I can get 3 - 6 pieces into it with > circulation space between the pieces. > > 2) I have been boiling 1 hr. per inch of thickness plus 30 - 60 > minutes for good measure. Good strong rolling boil. > > 3) Water turns a deep red quickly. Beech turns pink. White stoves look > pretty messy! (I "de-SWMBOed" some years ago and have not yet > "re-SWMBOed", and my dog is not at all upset, so everything is cool > here). Be careful with the steam, hot water and 212 degree Beech. > All can cause pain. > > 4) Weight of the wood before boiling is the same as the weight after > boiling. (One reference says Green Beech sapwood is 72% moisture.) > My moisture meter maxes out at 30% so I do not know actual % > moisture in this > wood, but I have weighed and am oven drying some scraps to try to get > a handle on it. > > 5) After 2 days, about 20% of boiled pieces are showing some checking. > I had to cut the blanks fairly short (about 10.5") in order to get > them into the pot, so I may loose a few. I have taken to coating > the ends with "Green Wood Sealer" which I got from Craft Supplies > long ago. It is my most effective sealer when I am green turning > bowls. My other methods are paraffin burnished into the wood with > the lathe spinning, plastic grocery bags, paper bags, in decreasing > order of slowing the drying process. This Green Wood Sealer usually > takes about 25% longer to dry than the other methods. > > 6) A 1" thick test piece weighed 2lb, 8oz before boiling for 2 hours, > and the same after boiling. This morning (48 hrs. after boiling) > that piece weighed 2lb. 6oz. (the ends are not coated on this > piece). > > 7) On about 20% of the blanks I have just coated the ends without > boiling, > so there will be some stock for comparison to air drying. > > 8) I don't have a kiln, and don't have space for a solar kiln outside > (thanks for several references on the solar kiln). FWW (#120) has a > large dehumidifier kiln that I may be able to adapt. I am thinking > of making a plywood box (2' x 3' x 6') that would contain both the > dehumidifier and stickered stock. Add a baffle to assure air > circulation, Styrofoam insulation and a 100 watt light bulb for > heat. I thought I would add a thermometer and check it every day. > Comments, thoughts and ideas are most welcome and would be > appreciated. > > 9) I have Googled and searched through all FWW looking for plans for a > small light bulb powered kiln to no avail. If anybody know of such > a plan I would appreciate the reference or url. > > 10. Again, I appreciate all the suggestions and ideas already > received, and will post a summary at the end of the project. > > 11. No, I don't think that I am going to have a whole lot of Beech > left > over, but if I do I will post it as a FS here on a first come, first > served basis. > > Thanks! > > Chris Berger, who has all windows open on a beautiful day. Boiled > Beech is pretty pungent, but shows no toxic signs. > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To > unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 133147 ---- From: gmcdavid@c... Date: 2004-05-06 17:31:31 Subject: Re: Sharpening jigs (short) > I believe it was the Greeks. They even went so far as to build there > own navy. They were sorta the Stanley Tools of their time > http://www.showgate.com/medea/ships/grkship1.gif Somewhere in Homer's _Odyssey_ there is a passage about shipbuilding, with references to tools and construction. The _Odyssey_ as we know dates from early in the Classical Greek period (600-800 BC), but much of the material is considerably older. The Greeks probably learned about ships from the Minoans (c. 1400 BC). There was also extensive sea commerce in the eastern Mediterraean (Cyprus, Phoenicia, etc.) about that time. IIRC, the Egyptians were importing timber from Lebanon even earlier. That must have been carried by ships. Glenn McDavid gmcdavid@c... http://www.winternet.com/~gmcdavid ---- Start of Message 133148 ---- From: "Andy Wilkins" Date: 2004-05-07 06:51:28 Subject: RE: Sharpening jigs (short) Yes, apparently the egyptians were making boats of bound papyrus around 4000BC. Cheops' pyramid (2500BC) has two big lebanese-cedar boats about 50m long buried beside it. a > IIRC, the Egyptians were importing timber from Lebanon even > earlier. That must have been carried by ships. > > Glenn McDavid ---- Start of Message 133149 ---- From: Thomas Conroy Date: 2004-05-06 14:38:15 Subject: Re: Tool plans Galoots: Tom Thornton asked about "a wooden square, a wooden level and a wooden plumb. Has anyone seen a pattern where I could make each of these tools?" I don't know about plans, but I'm sure the Dominy workshop had wooden squares, I'd be surprised if there weren't levels, and it had plumb bobs though I don't know if any were wood. There are photos and dimensions in "With Hammer in Hand" by Charles Hummel, the catalogue of the collection, and these could be copied. If anyone doesn't know about this, the Dominy family were general carpenters and clockmakers in a town on Long Island for about four generations until 1830; when they turned to other trades they just left the whole workshop untouched and sitting for a century, when the house was about to be torn down and the tools were sold to (I think) the Winterthur museum. Great resource. Tom Conroy Berkely __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 133150 ---- From: Jim Crammond Date: 2004-05-06 15:13:07 Subject: Re: Beech Boil Update Chris, Drew Langsner devotes several pages in The Chairmaker's Workshop to homemade kilns. He outlines making several different simple kilns made out of a 55 gal. drum with a blanket thrown over it, one made of 1" foil-backed polystyrene panels duct taped at the joints and one like he has in his shop made of 3/4" rigid foam insulation sandwiched between 1/4" plywood. All of these could use a light bulb as a heat source. He recommends keeping a thermometer in the kiln to monitor temperature which he suggests be 90 to 100 degrees and never above 140 degrees. He also suggests using a metal sheet between the heat source and the wood to deflect the heat to keep the wood from charring along with some way controlling ventilation to help regulate the temperature. Jim Crammond --- Chris Berger wrote: > Esteemed GGs > > 8) I don't have a kiln, and don't have space for a > solar kiln outside > (thanks for several references on the solar kiln). > FWW (#120) has a large > dehumidifier kiln that I may be able to adapt. I am > thinking of making a > plywood box (2' x 3' x 6') that would contain both > the dehumidifier and > stickered stock. Add a baffle to assure air > circulation, Styrofoam > insulation and a 100 watt light bulb for heat. I > thought I would add a > thermometer and check it every day. Comments, > thoughts and ideas are most > welcome and would be appreciated. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 133151 ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-05-06 15:29:32 Subject: re: Beech Boil Update >> He recommends keeping a thermometer in the kiln to monitor >> temperature which he suggests be 90 to 100 degrees and never above >> 140 degrees. He also suggests using a metal sheet between the heat >> source and the wood to deflect the heat to keep the wood from >> charring along with some way controlling ventilation to help >> regulate the temperature. A thought would be the wax filled cylinders used to ventillate greenhouses. They require no electricity, will close themselves when the temperature drops. Also they are not much more expensive than a few board feet of kiln dried beech. Alan ---- Start of Message 133152 ---- From: "M.Stadulis" Date: 2004-05-06 18:32:08 Subject: Re: Beech Boil Update Jim, I''ll bet you that for the type of rustic project that he does, Drew L's wood can withstand a heck of a lot more abuse than people that work w/ 1 inch boards. Regards, Michael Stadulis Gloucester County, New Jersey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Crammond" To: "oldtools" Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 6:13 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Beech Boil Update > > Chris, > > Drew Langsner devotes several pages in The > Chairmaker's Workshop to homemade kilns. He outlines > making several different simple kilns made out of a 55 > gal. drum with a blanket thrown over it, one made of > 1" foil-backed polystyrene panels duct taped at the > joints and one like he has in his shop made of 3/4" > rigid foam insulation sandwiched between 1/4" plywood. > All of these could use a light bulb as a heat source. > > He recommends keeping a thermometer in the kiln to > monitor temperature which he suggests be 90 to 100 > degrees and never above 140 degrees. He also suggests > using a metal sheet between the heat source and the > wood to deflect the heat to keep the wood from > charring along with some way controlling ventilation > to help regulate the temperature. > > Jim Crammond > > --- Chris Berger wrote: > > Esteemed GGs > > > > > 8) I don't have a kiln, and don't have space for a > > solar kiln outside > > (thanks for several references on the solar kiln). > > FWW (#120) has a large > > dehumidifier kiln that I may be able to adapt. I am > > thinking of making a > > plywood box (2' x 3' x 6') that would contain both > > the dehumidifier and > > stickered stock. Add a baffle to assure air > > circulation, Styrofoam > > insulation and a 100 watt light bulb for heat. I > > thought I would add a > > thermometer and check it every day. Comments, > > thoughts and ideas are most > > welcome and would be appreciated. > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 133153 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-06 17:56:12 Subject: re: tool cleaning question Let's also remind anyone thinking of trying this to make sure to use proper ventilation or do it outside. This was the standard experiment for making hydrogen, a very fast burning, very flammable gas. A small test tube full of the stuff is OK to light up but I remember my science teacher telling me a story of some kids who got the idea of bigger and better and used a narrow mouthed ketchup bottle. Apparently the result was glass shards flying throughout the science room. > [Original Message] > From: Andy Seaman > To: oldtools > Date: 5/6/2004 8:40:14 AM > Subject: re:[oldtools] tool cleaning question > > Bugbear, > I have used hydrochloric acid to etch concrete. As I'm sure you know, HCL can be obtained as muriatic acid from home and garden stores. Muriatic has an HCL concentration of about 35%, so it should be plenty strong. Note that HCL also etches most metals, especially alloys containing zinc. Application of a wax resist to surrounding metal areas might be in order prior to etching. Good luck and don't forget to practice safe handling and disposal techniques if you take this route. > -Andy > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 133154 ---- From: "Christopher Biggs" Date: 2004-05-07 09:09:24 Subject: [Brisbane, Australia] Free Wood Alert Hey Oz Galoots, here in Brisbane, I've heard that the city council in its infinite perversity has decided that the beautiful Camphor Laurel is a weed species, and has commenced to eradicate them from city parks. In the park near my house they've cut down several enormous specimens, chipped the limbs and branches and left, per usual council felling procedure, the largest trunk segments stacked awaiting arrival of the Mega Chipper. The only remaining pieces are, to my distress, either too large to fit in my car, or too heavy to lift. One trunk segment is around 50cm dia by nearly 2 metres long. It'd be a shame to see it chipped, hope somebody can rescue it. Location: Chapel Hill (Brisbane western suburbs), the banks of Cubberla Creek adjoining Sutling St, near the intersection of Henry St. Convenient parking lot on Sutling st. (I got me a 6" slab of trunk, for box-turning blanks, the only piece I could move). ObOldTools: Hints & resources on splitting log sections /without/ ch**ns*w gratefully received---I'm starting to lean to one side from using a bow saw...and SWMBO has vetoed acquisition of tailed devices for this purpose. --chris ---- Start of Message 133155 ---- From: "Steve Longley" Date: 2004-05-06 18:42:03 Subject: BIO - Steve Longley Hello, I thought that since I've been posting a bit lately that I'd introduce myself. My name is Steve Longley. The short-non-Galoot profile is: married, no kids, two dogs, one cat, and working on my third "old house" project. Well, *old* in my neck of the woods (1936) - that neck would be Dallas - and those woods would be Texas. I'd classify my woodworking skills as "variable." I know a lot more theory than I've been able to put into practice, and I'd like a chance for my "bench time" to catch up. Most of my woodworking over the years has been confined to old house restoration and as such I've learned quite a lot about duplicating old millwork and house parts and I've gotten to where I can cut-and-cope a mean crown moulding (thank you very much). For my pleasurable woodworking time, I've always tended toward hand tools. I think that stems from an appreciation for true craftsmanship and the old ways of doing things (as well as being a bit of a contrarian). I learned a lot of my skill-set volunteering at the "Age of Steam Railroad Museum" in Dallas, working on historic railroad cars. (btw... You should see some of the old mechanics and metalworking tools that were donated by the Pullman Co. when they closed their Dallas shop back in the early 60s! - oops, I digress). As for my non-rusty, less-dusty hobbies: I am a backpacker (that's mountain hiking, Jeff). I usually do 3-5 weekend trips a year in nearby Arkansas and an annual 5-6 day trip to somewhere in the Rockies. I occasionally build a bit of stained glass, most of which I have given away as gifts. I do have a couple of larger architectural scale glass projects lined up for the house, but that's for another discussion. I've had workshops since I was about 14 when I commandeered a wooden shed in my parent's backyard. Other shops have been in a metal building, a dirt-floored one car garage, a brick-floored greenhouse, and most recently in a very nice 2-car garage with a 13 x 12 bump-out in the back of one of the bays. Of course I have no hope of ever getting a car into my side of the garage, but SWMBO insists on getting one in hers - but I did negotiate air-rights on her side! While I'm a newbie to this group, I'm somewhat of an old-timer as well. I was a regular lurker and sometimes commentator in rec.woodworking back in the last century (1993-95), that would be prior to the great Normite/Neanderthal schism - although it was brewing at the time. This was back in the pre-WWW dark ages of dial-up and download / read and post / dial-up and upload via Bulletin Board Systems. The BBS that I used back then was called "The Lunatic Fringe" - Yes, I see that those who know me are nodding their heads ;-) My old tool collection is geared heavily towards the user category. I have enough to get me by on most projects without having to resort to the tailed-ones if I don't have to or want to. I bought my first three Stanley planes back in my rec.woodworking days from non-other than Patrick himself (lets just say that they've been sharpened a few times since then). Those of you who have FS lists will, if you have not already, hear from me as I expand my collection of users. While my grandfather was finish carpenter back when carpenters were carpenters, I never knew him since he died in the 1920s and I did not come along until the 1950s. Unfortunately, nothing of his tools made it my way. Who knows, maybe I've bought something of his I don't even know it - anyone have plans for a Ouija Board? As I've read and lurked over the last couple of months, and as you all offer up links, I've been perusing your webpages. I have to say that I'm thoroughly impressed with the work that you Galoots are doing, impressed with the webpages, as well as the projects and the tool building. Scott Grandstaff's work is amazing and I'm so impressed with Steve Knights work that I've ordered a coffin smoother from him - the first new plane that I've ever purchased - and a woodie - imagine that!? I've recently been investigating and studying up on carving (btw... very nice Green Man on your website Jim Thompson). Like Jim, I've been reading Chris Pye's books, but so far I've only gotten as far as a few elementary practice carvings. Now that I have a real workshop, I want a real bench. I hope to build a traditional style bench within the next year, but the list of honey-dos and house to-dos don't seem to be getting much shorter. I always find the porch discussions most interesting, if not downright entertaining. It's amazing how any topic broached will bring forth a wealth of information and considered insight -- and it's all offered up with a genuine willingness to share. I'm looking forward to hanging out with, and continuing to learn from, such a fine bunch of people. Cheers, Steve ---- Start of Message 133156 ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-05-06 20:20:34 Subject: Re: Tool plans Tom jogs his memory > If anyone doesn't know about this, the Dominy family were general > carpenters and clockmakers in a town on Long Island for about four > generations until 1830; when they turned to other trades they just > left the whole workshop untouched and sitting for a century, when > the house was about to be torn down and the tools were sold to > (I think) the Winterthur museum. Great resource. For a bunch of carpenters and clockmakers, they turned out some nice furniture way out at the tip of Long Island. Actually, Winterthur did more than buy the tools. They bought both the woodworking and the clockmaking workshops, dismantled them, trucked them down here, and reassembled them inside the museum as a sort of 'frozen in time' display. When I saw the exhibit a few years ago, they also had a display of a dozen or more pieces of furniture built in the workshop arrayed outside the shop buildings, along with some other pretty impressive colonial pieces from various regions. It wasn't possible to get close to any of the tools, but you could get a real good look at a big lathe spun by an apprentice-powered handwheel. It's an absorbing exhibit to see if you happen to be in the Wilmington DE area and inclined to visit the place. Charlie Driggs Newark DE ---- Start of Message 133157 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-06 18:20:51 Subject: Tage Frid death MIDDLETOWN -- Tage P. Frid, 88, of 303 Valley Rd., and formerly of Foster, a master woodworker, a professor emeritus at Rhode Island School of Design, and a former school-committee chairman, died Tuesday at Village House, Newport. A teacher and lecturer for 50 years, Mr. Frid had been a member of the faculty of the School for American Craftsmen, first at Alfred University and later at the Rochester Institute of Technology, before he became a professor and the head of the woodworking and design program at RISD in 1962. He retired from RISD, in the late 1980s, and was named a professor emeritus. Still known as the "dean of American woodworking" at the time of his retirement, he is best recalled as a teacher of aspiring furniture designers and woodworkers. His work was not limited to teaching, however, or even to woodworking. Mr. Frid had served as a consultant to the Mystic Seaport Museum, the International Mint and the former Rhode Island Hospital Trust bank, among others; as a designer of mass-produced for the Howard Johnson's and Treadway motel chains; and as an interior designer to clients including the Danish government. He had been a partner in Donovan and Frid, a design and woodworking firm specializing in interiors and handmade furniture. He was a co-founder of Shop One, in Rochester, N.Y., a shop owned and operated by craftsmen, and ESPAN, a manufacturer of small desk accessories. Examples of his woodworking have showcased in many publications, and added to the permanent collections of the Smithsonian Institution, the Renwick Gallery, the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, and the Museum of Art at the Rhode Island School of Design. His altars and crosses have been installed in many churches, among them, the Church of St. John the Divine-Episcopal, in Wickford Village, North Kingstown, and the Episcopal Church of Mitchell, S.D. "When I've made it, I sell it," he said in a 1967 Sunday Journal interview. "Usually, after a very short time, I can't stand living with it." This philosophy drew the ire of his wife on at least one occasion, when during a luncheon party, the movers arrived to take away the dining room set. Mr. Frid also was the author of a three-volume set entitled Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking, and had been a contributing editor, since 1975, to the bimonthly trade journal Fine Woodworking. His long and productive career drew him many awards. He was named a Fellow of the American Crafts Council, for his distinguished achievement, in 1980, and was the recipient of an honorary doctorate of fine arts from RISD, in 1984; the Governor's Award of the Rhode Island State Council on the Arts, in 1992; and in 2001, a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Furniture Society. Mr. Frid completed his education as a journeyman in 1934, after a five-year apprenticeship under master craftsman Gronlund Jensen. He went on to graduate in 1940 from the Vedins School and to receive a degree in 1944 from the Graduate School for Interior Design, both in Copenhagen. He was the husband of Emma Jacobsen; they had been married for 57 years. Born in Copenhagen, Denmark, the son of the late Albert Frid and Camilla Mortensen, he had lived in Denmark and Iceland before immigrating to this country in 1948. Mr. Frid was a former member of the Foster School Committee, and had served as the board's chairman for several years. Besides his wife, he leaves a daughter, Ann Randall of Middletown; a son, Peter Frid of Madbury, N.H.; and six grandsons. A memorial service will be held at a later date. Burial will be private. ---- Start of Message 133158 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-05-06 21:25:52 Subject: Re: Tool plans Charlie Driggs wrote: > When I saw the exhibit a few > years ago, they also had a display of a dozen or more pieces of > furniture built in the workshop arrayed outside the shop > buildings Charlie is right, this is a remarkable display. In fact they have pieces of furniture with elements made from the patterns that hang from the ceiling of the shop - pretty cool. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 133159 ---- From: "Anthony Seo" Date: 2004-05-06 21:40:35 Subject: Website For those of you interested in woodworking and other trades in an historical context http://www.geocities.com/wvwoodwrights/ Neat stuff Tony ---- Start of Message 133160 ---- From: "Lew Soloway" Date: 2004-05-06 20:46:57 Subject: So Cal: Anderson Plywood Old Tool Swap Meet -- 5/15 Dear Southern California Galoots -- Just a note to remind you that May 15 is the next Anderson Plywood Old Tool Swap Meet from 6AM-Noon. The address is 4020 Sepulveda Blvd. in Culver City. Anderson Plywood is off the 405 Fwy between Washington Blvd. and Washington Place. Anyone can Sell because there is lots of room for dealers since the store expansion. There is also swap meet parking for shoppers in the Elks Lodge parking lot off Washington Blvd. For more information, call John Arenson 310-397-8229. Since we missed the Swap Meet in February (because of rain), I will have the Winter and Spring issues of TOOLSWAP/usa. Be sure to stop by and pick them up. Hope to see you there Lew ---- Start of Message 133161 ---- From: traviswa@u... Date: 2004-05-06 21:42:04 Subject: Re: [Brisbane, Australia] Free Wood Alert Some Brissies should go halvsies on a ute rental (I think about $50/day). Unfortuantely, I'm totally busy until next weekend... :( --Travis > The only remaining pieces are, to my distress, either too large to fit > in my car, or too heavy to lift. One trunk segment is around 50cm > dia by nearly 2 metres long. > > It'd be a shame to see it chipped, hope somebody can rescue it. > > Location: Chapel Hill (Brisbane western suburbs), the banks of > Cubberla Creek adjoining Sutling St, near the intersection of Henry > St. Convenient parking lot on Sutling st. ---- Start of Message 133162 ---- From: Stephen Andrews Date: 2004-05-07 09:53:09 Subject: I need straightening out I bought an old saw by I & H Sorby for one pound in a junk=20 shop. It had a soft wormy handle. I don=92t know what possessed=20 me but I decided to make a handle for it. It took 13 hours in=20 all to make an exact copy of the old one. It=92s a beautiful=20 handle and I am very pleased with it. Before fitting the=20 handle I attempted to straighten the saw with a bit of=20 planishing. Err add on another 6 hours. I got the teeth=20 edge straight and almost got the top edge straight.=20 Problem is there is now a twist in the saw blade about=20 4-5 inches from the tip which I can=92t get out. If I lay the=20 saw blade flat on the bench the top edge of the tip sticks=20 up in the air about one eighth of an inch. Ever got the=20 feeling that you can=92t stop now because you=92ve invested=20 too much time already. I have that feeling now. Any one=20 know how to get rid of the twist. I cant work out weather=20 to lengthen the edges or work on the middle area.=20 I=92m starting to think that I could have spent the time doing=20 something more useful. Oh well the feeling will pass soon=20 enough I=92m sure.=20 Thanks in advance=20 Stephen=20 --=20 Whatever you Wanadoo: http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/ This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at: http= ://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm ---- Start of Message 133163 ---- From: "Steve Brackett" Date: 2004-05-07 12:06:55 Subject: Tool Hunting in New England GG's, Every once in a while it seems there is some esrtwhole galoot traveling through New England (such as recent one masquerading as a business trip to Hadley, MA). It occurred to me that having a central reference point of Galoot recommeded shops, booths, FM's would be a nice thing to have. To that end I have started such a page on my website. Of course my ramblings are pretty much right around southern NH and maybe some in MA. I realize this is a little bit like asking for favorite fishing spots but hey guys, really, we all know Pat and Martin have already been there ahead of us now metter where it is. So, I'm asking that folks send me suggestions for New England tool haunts to list. Lets keep it brief: are there lots of tools? high end stuff? how do you get there? You guys know what we are all looking for! TIA Steve in Keene www.bracketttools.com ---- Start of Message 133164 ---- From: Al Perreault Date: 2004-05-07 09:56:22 Subject: Re: Tool Hunting in New England Steve, My experience has shown that most all the best tools in New England can be found in the northern most reaches of Maine's Aroostook County, the closer to the Canadian border, the better. I'm thinkin' we should send the out-of-towners up that-a-way. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, MA Who does actually vacation in Maine. > Every once in a while it seems there is some esrtwhole galoot > > traveling through New England (such as recent one masquerading as > a > business trip to Hadley, MA). It occurred to me that having a > > central reference point of Galoot recommeded shops, booths, FM's > > would be a nice thing to have. > TIA > > Steve in Keene www.bracketttools.com > ---- Start of Message 133165 ---- From: brian_welch@h... Date: 2004-05-07 10:08:48 Subject: Re: Sharpening jigs (short) >Somewhere in Homer's _Odyssey_ there is a passage about >shipbuilding, with references to tools and construction. >The _Odyssey_ as we know dates from early in the Classical >Greek period (600-800 BC), but much of the material is >considerably older. Here is the only passage I could find--searching through a database of Greek texts, not actually reading the Odyssey, which I haven't done since high school. I also am NOT verifying the accuracy of this translation, since relearning Greek, which I last studied in the late 80s, is not high on my to-do list right now. Maybe after I finally build my bench! To recap: Odysseus (Ulysses) has been shipwrecked and is held hostage by the beautiful nymph Calypso on her island. Finally, Zeus intervenes and convinces Calypso to let him go, because he would rather return to SWMBO (Penelope) than have a nymph sugar mamma . "As soon as early Dawn appeared, the rosy-fingered, straightway Odysseus put on a cloak and a tunic, [230] and the nymph clothed herself in a long white robe, finely woven and beautiful, and about her waist she cast a fair girdle of gold, and on her head a veil above. Then she set herself to plan the sending of the great-hearted Odysseus. She gave him a great axe, well fitted to his hands, [235] an axe of bronze, sharpened on both sides; and in it was a beautiful handle of olive wood, securely fastened; and thereafter she gave him a polished adze. Then she led the way to the borders of the island where tall trees were standing, alder and popular and fir, reaching to the skies, [240] long dry and well-seasoned, which would float for him lightly. But when she had shewn him where the tall trees grew, Calypso, the beautiful goddess, returned homewards, but he fell to cutting timbers, and his work went forward apace. Twenty trees in all did he fell, and trimmed them with the axe; [245] then he cunningly smoothed them all and made them straight to the line. Meanwhile Calypso, the beautiful goddess, brought him augers; and he bored all the pieces and fitted them to one another, and with pegs and morticings did he hammer it together. Wide as a man well-skilled in carpentry marks out the curve of the hull of a freight-ship, [250] broad of beam, even so wide did Odysseus make his raft. And he set up the deck-beams, bolting them to the close-set ribs, and laboured on; and he finished the raft with long gunwales. In it he set a mast and a yard-arm, fitted to it, [255] and furthermore made him a steering-oar, wherewith to steer. Then he fenced in the whole from stem to stern with willow withes to be a defence against the wave, and strewed much brush thereon. Meanwhile Calypso, the beautiful goddess, brought him cloth to make him a sail, and he fashioned that too with skill. [260] And he made fast in the raft braces and halyards and sheets, and then with levers forced it down into the bright sea." (from book 5--translated by A.T. Murray) This Calypso doesn't sound too bad to me! How many of you (other than possibly Todd) have had a nymph give you a polished adze? Before you ask, one commentary suggests that the trees used were dead but still standing. Have a great weekend. Brian Welch Worcester, MA ---- Start of Message 133166 ---- From: Timothy Collins Date: 2004-05-07 10:29:31 Subject: new-ulysses the shipwright ? standing but dead? I haven't ever used a bronze axe, but I think it would work much better on green wood than on well seasoned wood. tim ---- Start of Message 133167 ---- From: gmcdavid@c... Date: 2004-05-07 15:36:32 Subject: Re: new-ulysses the shipwright > ? standing but dead? I haven't ever used a bronze axe, but I think it > would work much better on green wood than on well seasoned wood. Good question. However, until about c. 1100 BC, Bronze was the best metal anybody had for tools. I suspect the Egyptians did work with seasoned wood during the Bronze age. They had to import timber, and with travel and storage in those days some drying would be unavoidable. Glenn McDavid gmcdavid@c... http://www.winternet.com/~gmcdavid ---- Start of Message 133168 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-05-07 08:37:22 Subject: Re: Tage Frid death Tage Frid's books were my introduction to woodworking. I'm sorry to hear he has passed. I hope he knew the good he had done. >>> Jim Thompson 05/06/2004 6:20:51 PM >>> MIDDLETOWN -- Tage P. Frid, 88, of 303 Valley Rd., and formerly of Foster, a master woodworker, a professor emeritus at Rhode Island School of Design, and a former school-committee chairman, died Tuesday at Village House, Newport. A teacher and lecturer for 50 years, Mr. Frid had been a member of the faculty of the School for American Craftsmen, first at Alfred University and later at the Rochester Institute of Technology, before he became a professor and the head of the woodworking and design program at RISD in 1962. He retired from RISD, in the late 1980s, and was named a professor emeritus. Still known as the "dean of American woodworking" at the time of his retirement, he is best recalled as a teacher of aspiring furniture designers and woodworkers. His work was not limited to teaching, however, or even to woodworking. Mr. Frid had served as a consultant to the Mystic Seaport Museum, the International Mint and the former Rhode Island Hospital Trust bank, among others; as a designer of mass-produced for the Howard Johnson's and Treadway motel chains; and as an interior designer to clients including the Danish government. He had been a partner in Donovan and Frid, a design and woodworking firm specializing in interiors and handmade furniture. He was a co-founder of Shop One, in Rochester, N.Y., a shop owned and operated by craftsmen, and ESPAN, a manufacturer of small desk accessories. Examples of his woodworking have showcased in many publications, and added to the permanent collections of the Smithsonian Institution, the Renwick Gallery, the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, and the Museum of Art at the Rhode Island School of Design. His altars and crosses have been installed in many churches, among them, the Church of St. John the Divine-Episcopal, in Wickford Village, North Kingstown, and the Episcopal Church of Mitchell, S.D. "When I've made it, I sell it," he said in a 1967 Sunday Journal interview. "Usually, after a very short time, I can't stand living with it." This philosophy drew the ire of his wife on at least one occasion, when during a luncheon party, the movers arrived to take away the dining room set. Mr. Frid also was the author of a three-volume set entitled Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking, and had been a contributing editor, since 1975, to the bimonthly trade journal Fine Woodworking. His long and productive career drew him many awards. He was named a Fellow of the American Crafts Council, for his distinguished achievement, in 1980, and was the recipient of an honorary doctorate of fine arts from RISD, in 1984; the Governor's Award of the Rhode Island State Council on the Arts, in 1992; and in 2001, a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Furniture Society. Mr. Frid completed his education as a journeyman in 1934, after a five-year apprenticeship under master craftsman Gronlund Jensen. He went on to graduate in 1940 from the Vedins School and to receive a degree in 1944 from the Graduate School for Interior Design, both in Copenhagen. He was the husband of Emma Jacobsen; they had been married for 57 years. Born in Copenhagen, Denmark, the son of the late Albert Frid and Camilla Mortensen, he had lived in Denmark and Iceland before immigrating to this country in 1948. Mr. Frid was a former member of the Foster School Committee, and had served as the board's chairman for several years. Besides his wife, he leaves a daughter, Ann Randall of Middletown; a son, Peter Frid of Madbury, N.H.; and six grandsons. A memorial service will be held at a later date. Burial will be private. ---- Start of Message 133169 ---- From: "Nik Gregory" Date: 2004-05-07 16:24:58 Subject: Re: new-ulysses the shipwright Regarding Glenns comment, >Good question. However, until about c. 1100 BC, Bronze was the best >>metal anybody had for tools. I thought that Bronze was superior to Iron for edged weapons (tougher, could hod a better edge...) and that in the Roman Legions, it was the officers and generals (or at least the ones with money) that got the good bronze weapons. The peons got iron. My memory is vague on this but I though that the real plus of iron was that there was quite a lot of it (from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze) *** begin quote*** Bronze was still used to a considerable extent during the Iron Age but for many purposes the weaker iron was sufficiently strong to serve in its place. The abundance of iron allowed it to usurp the title as reigning metal. As an example, Roman officers were equipped with bronze swords while foot soldiers had to make do with iron blades. ***end quote*** And that it was not until steel came around that you actually had improvment. ---- Start of Message 133170 ---- From: cpmueller@c... Date: 2004-05-07 23:01:16 Subject: Whatsit?? Galooterati, So many whatsits, so little time. Now that I can post some pictures of puzzling planes, let me offer this one up. This plane looks like a coffin smoother but one side of the base is straight, not curved. The straight side has the mouth let in so the iron can snug up against some work but it's not like a rabbet plane. And no nicker either. Find the pix here, all the way at the end: http://home.comcast.net/~cpmueller/wsb/html/view.cgi-photos.html-.html There are some other puzzling things about it too. Like what is "shear steel?" I'd like to know what this tool is/was used for. Can anyone please help? Thanks, Pete Mueller GPP, Michigan ---- Start of Message 133171 ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 2004-05-07 19:09:15 Subject: Re: Whatsit?? At 07:01 PM 5/7/04, cpmueller@c... wrote: >Galooterati, > >So many whatsits, so little time. Now that I can post some pictures of >puzzling planes, let me offer this one up. This plane looks like a coffin >smoother but one side of the base is straight, not curved. The straight >side has the mouth let in so the iron can snug up against some work but >it's not like a rabbet plane. And no nicker either. > >Find the pix here, all the way at the >end: http://home.comcast.net/~cpmueller/wsb/html/view.cgi-photos.html-.html > >There are some other puzzling things about it too. Like what is "shear >steel?" > >I'd like to know what this tool is/was used for. Can anyone please help? Wow..that's a find. Taylor & Son worked 1843-51. Rated Uncommon in Goodman's. Looks to be some sort of inside rabbet plane. Was probably for a special job that someone needed to do. That iron and signed cap are great! Tony Olde River Hard Goods 350 West Catawissa Street Nesquehoning PA 18240 570-669-9421 The best old tool store in Pennsylvania! http://www.oldetoolshop.com ---- Start of Message 133172 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-05-07 18:51:51 Subject: Sargent Whatsit All Knowledgeable Galooti, I picked up this Sargent gadget at a flea market. It is obviously some type of double clamp (cramp, Jeff), but what was it used for? The two clamps are at right angles to each other, and both thumbscrews have "SARGENT" on them in raised letters. It is 2 1/2 inches long (excluding the thumbscrews). I know I need it or I wouldn't have bought it, because I am a user - right? My only problem is in connection with explaining to SWMBO what I am going to use it for. Anyone know anything about this clamp? http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/categories.php?cat_id=32&page=2 Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ---- Start of Message 133173 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-05-07 20:21:02 Subject: Re: Sargent Whatsit > I picked up this Sargent gadget at a flea market. It is > obviously some type of double clamp (cramp, Jeff), but what was > it used for? The two clamps are at right angles to each other, This is a clamp used in chemistry labs. The typical setup stand is simply a steel rod on a base. One side of the clamp attaches to such a stand and a rod fitted to the other side, with any of a number of gizmos for holding stuff attached to the rod. > right? My only problem is in connection with explaining to SWMBO > what I am going to use it for. It would actually be quite handy to have a some of these clamps and some steel rod (1/4" I think) in your shop. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 133174 ---- From: mimulus@p... Date: 2004-05-07 17:29:40 Subject: [Fwd: [oldtools] Sargent Whatsit] Frank writes: > I picked up this Sargent gadget at a flea market. It is obviously > some type of double clamp (cramp, Jeff), but what was it used for? You, sir, are the proud owner of a ring stand clamp, used to connect various rods and supports at right angles to a vertical (and hopefully stable) iron rod, in the pursuit of heating substances in a chemistry lab. This device will prove to be indispensably vital in a future sharpening jig, or other big important project. Cherish it! cur - with fond memories of blowing stuff up real good in a few labs. ---- Start of Message 133175 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-05-07 19:46:03 Subject: Re: Sargent Whatsit Thanks Larry - and Jack - for answering the question. And I do have 1/4" steel rod stock in the shop, so I guess I'm ready to prove it is something I needed. Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Marshall" To: "oldtools" Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 7:21 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Sargent Whatsit > > > I picked up this Sargent gadget at a flea market. It is > > obviously some type of double clamp (cramp, Jeff), but what was > > it used for? The two clamps are at right angles to each other, > > This is a clamp used in chemistry labs. The typical setup stand is > simply a steel rod on a base. One side of the clamp attaches to > such a stand and a rod fitted to the other side, with any of a > number of gizmos for holding stuff attached to the rod. > > > right? My only problem is in connection with explaining to SWMBO > > what I am going to use it for. > > It would actually be quite handy to have a some of these clamps and > some steel rod (1/4" I think) in your shop. > > -- > Cheers --- Larry Marshall > Quebec City, QC > http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 133176 ---- From: "Tim Ridolfi" Date: 2004-05-07 20:21:43 Subject: Re: The Gorman-Grandstaff award conditions - clarification sought Just to make sure that we have thoroughly beat the deal to a pulp, I relate the following from the biggest thing made from a tree in my home--the Oxford English Dictionary. I am going to clip and summarize heavily since this modern medium doesn't support nearly as many characters as the old and honorable book. To start with, the etymology makes references to Olde German, Olde Norse, Olde English, and Olde Teutonic ancestors that translate to board, plank, floor, and other similar. The roots seem to be primarily Germanic. Definitions include: "1. A slice sawn from a log of timber (now always fir or pine), and usually understood to be more than seven inches wide, and not more than three thick; a plank or board of pine or fir-wood. "In the timber trade, in Great Britain, a deal is understood to be 9 inches wide, not more than 3 inches thick, and at least 6 feet long. If shorter, it is a dead-end; if not more than 7 inches wide, it is a Batten. In N. America, the standard deal to which other sizes are reduced to in computation is 12 feet long, 11 inches wide, and 2 1/2 inches thick. By carpenters, deal of half this thickness (1 1/4 inches) is called whole deal; of half the latter (5/8 inch) slit deal. "The word was introduced with the importation of sawn boards from some Low German district, and, as these consisted usually of fir or pine, the wood was from the first associated with these kinds of wood." ... "b. ...Wood in the form of deals." ... "2. As a kind of timber: The wood of fir or pine, such as deals ... are made from. "White deal, the produce of the Norway Spruce (Abies excelsior); red deal, the produce of the Scotch Pine (Pinus sylvestris); yellow deal, the produce of the Yellow Pine (P. mitis), or kindred American species." ... There's more, but that's the most important of it. Also, the term "deal" is used quite a bit in the works of Bernard E. Jones. Best, Tim ---- Start of Message 133177 ---- From: "Steve Longley" Date: 2004-05-07 22:22:57 Subject: RE: [OldTools] Galoot Winos So, let me summarize.. O2 reduction: My calculations based on the figures that Andy and Bent provided (thank you very much) is that a cheap Galoot can expect a reduction of trapped oxygen in the can by "exhalation displacement" (garlic and Mexican Food not withstanding) of something between 13% and 31%. Not great, but not too bad for free ;-) Data Point Calc: 20.55% normal => 17.90% exhale = 12.90% reduction 20.947% normal => 14.4% exhale = 31.23% reduction Now, has anyone heard that garlic breath will both de-wax and improve the flow of shellac? Steve in Dallas ---- Start of Message 133178 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-07 20:47:30 Subject: Re: [OldTools] Galoot Winos On May 7, 2004, at 8:22 PM, Steve Longley wrote: > > Now, has anyone heard that garlic breath will both de-wax and improve > the > flow of shellac? Yes, and not only that, but it also reduces fisheye and the orange peel effect. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 133179 ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 2004-05-08 03:28:14 Subject: Re: Whatsit?? Pete Mueller asked: >>So many whatsits, so little time. Now that I can post some >>pictures of puzzling planes, let me offer this one up. This plane >>looks like a coffin smoother but one side of the base is straight, >>not curved. The straight side has the mouth let in so the iron can >>snug up against some work but it's not like a rabbet plane. And no >>nicker either. >> >>Find the pix here, all the way at the end: >>http://home.comcast.net/~cpmueller/wsb/html/view.cgi-photos.html-.html >> >>There are some other puzzling things about it too. Like what is >>"shear steel?" >> >>I'd like to know what this tool is/was used for. Can anyone please help? Tony Seo replied: >Wow..that's a find. Taylor & Son worked 1843-51. Rated Uncommon in >Goodman's. Looks to be some sort of inside rabbet plane. Was >probably for a special job that someone needed to do. That iron and >signed cap are great! Very unusual plane - especially with one straight and one curved cheek. It could be viewed as a smooth sized badger plane, but that is a bit problematic since the name, badger, typically implies a toted plane of jack size. Or, it might be thought of as a "Smooth [size] Raising Plane" (so named in many 19th century British plane maker's price lists), though these usually had a fence and, possibly, a nicker and/or depth stop. Take your pick? :-) With reference to the James Cam cap iron, the usual understanding is that James Cam first appeared as a file maker in a 1787 directory listing. Then in a partnership of Cam & Brown, edge tool makers, at 52 Norfolk Street, in 1797. By 1817, the firm was, once again, listed as James Cam, Norfolk Street, continuing to about 1837. However, information provided by Bill Kasper some time back tends to present some difficulty with this narrative. Specifically, he pointed out some Sheffield burial list information pertaining to James Cam, which indicates he died March 31, 1837 - at the age of 65. If this is correct, he would have only been about 15 years of age at the time of the 1787 listing. This seems to suggest that the 1787 file maker listing was for another James Cam ... possibly his father? So, it seems more likely that the first listing for James Cam, the edge tool maker, was the 1797 partnership of Cam & Brown. In any event, the firm of Marshes & Shepherd purchased James Cam's business, along with the right to use his name/mark, at about the time of his death. They continued to use the James Cam mark on edge tools until about 1849, as did their successor, Marsh Brothers & Company. This latter firm was in business until at least the end of the century. As far as I can make out, the plane iron exhibits the mark: G. HATTERSLEY SHEFFIELD Gerge Hattersley was in business, as an edge tool maker, from about 1828 until about 1841. First at 87 Eyre Lane, then at 14 Plum Street. Shear steel is produced from blister steel, which is the product of the cementation process. Clear as mud, eh? OK ... a little background. According to K. C. Barraclough, the earliest account of steel making by the cementation process comes from Nuremberg in 1601. Though he also hints it may be significant that the inventor, Johann Nussbaum, had previously spent some years in Prague. Very briefly, the cementation process involves placing alternating layers of iron bars and charcoal into refractory chests, which are subsequently sealed, or cemented, closed. This prevents the charcoal from igniting. The chests sit in a large furnace, which is then fired for a period of a week to ten days. The firing is monitored to maintain a temperature below the melting point of the iron bars, while carbon from the charcoal diffuses into the iron bars. These bars tend to have a blistered, or scaled, appearance when they emerge from the process - hence the term, blister steel. The process of producing shear steel from blister steel was introduced into England by Wilhelm (or William) Bertram, of Germany, who was apparently shipwrecked on the North Durham coast in 1693. Before long, he was involved in steel making in Newcastle. Bertram's stamp was that of a pair of crossed shear blades, which came to be associated with the product/process he pioneered. Interestingly, this process doesn't seem to have been introduced into Sheffield until about 1767. Again, very briefly, shear steel is produced by cutting selected bars of blister steel into shorter lengths (ca. 18"), fastening them into bundles using wire, then hot forging them (presumably through the use of tilt hammers) into an ingot. This results in some hammer refining and a flexible steel particularly well suited for certain kinds of cutlery work. Hope this helps. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 133180 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-05-08 06:21:35 Subject: Re: Whatsit?? Don writes : >It could be viewed as a smooth sized badger plane, but that is a bit >problematic since the name, badger, typically implies a toted plane of >jack size. Or, it might be thought of as a "Smooth [size] Raising Plane" >(so named in many 19th century British plane maker's price lists), >though these usually had a fence and, possibly, a nicker and/or depth >stop. I've been walking past (with difficulty) one just like this one. If it weren't for one cheek being cracked I probably would have bought it. No fence, or depthstop. The seller refers to it as a badger plane, though I too thought they were always toted. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 133181 ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 2004-05-08 10:00:31 Subject: Re: Whatsit?? At 11:01 PM 5/7/2004 +0000, you wrote: >Galooterati, > >but it's not like a rabbet plane. And no nicker either. What about this doesn't look like a beautiful old skew-bladed rabbet plane to you? And how much will you take for it? Jim ---- Start of Message 133182 ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-05-08 10:05:40 Subject: Stanloid Rarity How uncommon are Stanley #60 chisels that have handles marked as being made of Stanloid? Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 133183 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-05-08 10:08:45 Subject: Ebay Saw Okay....I see in the archives this came up once before (earlier this year), but I have to ask about this... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2242002343 The only question I have is the seller's mention of a US Stamp? What does that mean? Does it legitimize this? Otherwise, it looks like a British back saw to me (not that I am an expert). 'James Gregg, Sloan Square' sounds like British maker to me... Thoughts? I do know that a lot of my saws have 'spots of white paint' - I never realized they were special identifiers that could increase the value :). Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 133184 ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 2004-05-08 10:09:52 Subject: Re: Tage Frid death At 06:20 PM 5/6/2004 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote: >MIDDLETOWN -- Tage P. Frid, 88, of 303 Valley Rd., and formerly of Foster, a >master woodworker, a professor emeritus at Rhode Island School of Design, >and a former school-committee chairman, died Tuesday at Village House, >Newport. He always reminded me of my grandfather, also a scandinavian import. ---- Start of Message 133185 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-05-08 10:09:59 Subject: Folk Fest and Stuff Okay...it is Mother's Day weekend and, of course, that means only one thing... It is FolkFest weekend at Mercer Museum. http://www.mercermuseum.org/folkfest/index.html This is just a Galoot'ish enough event - with enough things for the GITS and SWMBO (and very close to my house) - that I try not to miss it. But, since I was thinking about it, and since I wanted to play with some HTML editing software today - I took some photos from last year and posted them up my web space. I captured some of the most Galoot'ish stuff (no pictures of Windsor chairs or the timber framing folks) - but, as explained on the page, last year I was doing my "survey of shaving horses" so that is reflected in the photos I took. http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/folkfest/ Enjoy them for what they are worth! Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 133186 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-05-08 08:01:34 Subject: Re: Folk Fest and Stuff >It is FolkFest weekend at Mercer Museum. >http://www.mercermuseum.org/folkfest/index.html > Bruce shoots some shave horses. Ahhhhh, good ol dumbheads all! Must be a neighborhood thing and somebody with long shave horse experience started it. Dumbhead rocks! The classic horse design has one drawback. Work capacity. They aren't adjustable so you're pretty much stuck with a narrow range of workpiece sizes. Time for my annual pitch! I put my work support platform on hinges and use wedges to regulate the height. The wedges are held together with a batten so they move together. Slide in or out for instant adjust. From nuthin to 4" thick capacity in a wink Here's my old drawing, once again. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/horse.html yours, Scott Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 133187 ---- From: cpmueller@c... Date: 2004-05-08 15:08:39 Subject: Re: Whatsit?? GGs, I asked, "...what this tool is/was used for?" And Tony comes back with, "...Looks to be some sort of inside rabbet plane. Was probably for a special job that someone needed to do." To which Don added, "could be viewed as a smooth sized badger plane, but that is a bit problematic since the name, badger, typically implies a toted plane of jack size. Or, it might be thought of as a "Smooth [size] Raising Plane".... !!! Regretful snippage of scholarly tome per OT FAQ !!! Hope this helps." Yup. It does. You are right, the iron is G. Hattersly. The last few letters are barely legible. The cap iron nut pocket for the screw appears to be forged with the cap iron. There's no weld mark that I can see and the surface fo the cap iron is profiled to the rectangular nut in two directions. The lady I purchased this from called it a panel raising plane. I wasn't so sure about that but I needed one to make the rasied panels that will be installed on the bench so I bought it. Take my pick? I'm with Paul's seller. Badger plane. Thanks to all who answered and provided much more information than I had. The information available from this group is amazing. Thanks again. Pete Mueller GPP, Michigan > At 07:01 PM 5/7/04, cpmueller@c... wrote: > >Galooterati, > > > >So many whatsits, so little time. Now that I can post some pictures > >of puzzling planes, let me offer this one up. This plane looks like a > >coffin smoother but one side of the base is straight, not curved. The > >straight side has the mouth let in so the iron can snug up against > >some work but it's not like a rabbet plane. And no nicker either. > > > >Find the pix here, all the way at the end: http://home.comcast.net/~- > >cpmueller/wsb/html/view.cgi-photos.html-.html > > > >There are some other puzzling things about it too. Like what is > >"shear steel?" > > > >I'd like to know what this tool is/was used for. Can anyone > >please help? > > Wow..that's a find. Taylor & Son worked 1843-51. Rated Uncommon in > Goodman's. Looks to be some sort of inside rabbet plane. Was probably > for a special job that someone needed to do. That iron and signed cap > are great! > > Tony > > > Olde River Hard Goods > 350 West Catawissa Street Nesquehoning PA > 18240 570-669-9421 The best old tool > store in Pennsylvania! > http://www.oldetoolshop.com > ---- Start of Message 133188 ---- From: "greg" Date: 2004-05-07 23:18:17 Subject: Re: Whatsit?? >>> >>>There are some other puzzling things about it too. Like what is >>>"shear steel?" >>> *********** cut and paste begins ************* Until 1742, producing steel was a difficult task. The quality of the steel was often unreliable. The steel was made by heating iron bars which were covered in charcoal. The heating was continued for up to a week. The material produced was called blister steel. Blister steel was then turned into shear steel by wrapping blister steel bars up in a bundle and then heating them again before forging the bundle. The heat and the action of the forge hammer welded the rods together as they were hammered to the size required. This shear steel was used to make razors, files, knives, swords and the other steel items for which Sheffield became famous. ******************* cut and paste ends here *************** Basically they would surface harden the skins and the weld the bundle to disperse the carbon throughout. cheers, greg ---- Start of Message 133189 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-05-08 13:34:56 Subject: Parlett Farm Museum Hi All, Well, I"m back from the Parlett affair. Didn't see many Galoots there - that I recognized as such anyway. Only Dan Yurwit down from NJ and Tom Graham. Had expected to see Bill Ghio, but didn't; maybe he was there and just didn't say Hi to my Donald Duck cap. Besides so few Galoots, PATINA was also pretty sparsely represented. I know there were some there from RATS; not sure about the rest of the few hundred. There were several tool sellers, but I don' tknow that any of you who didn't come missed many bargains or such. For example, I saw several fairly run of the mill saws with $40.-50. price tags on them. But you did miss Parlett's amazing spread of tools and other farm related items - and a good free lunch. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 133190 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-05-08 14:06:43 Subject: Re: Ebay Saw > >I do know that a lot of my saws have 'spots of white paint' - I >never realized they were special identifiers that could increase the >value :). > I would imagine that the selling price would have something to do with the buyer "buying" the story. Such is the world of modern art. It was once explained to me as I was baffled by an exhibit at Sotheby's where the gallery was asking $40,000.00 for what appeared to be a brown extension cord with christmas lights. The same auction brought $20,000.00 for a two bulb flourescent 4' light fixture with blue lamps. The piece was called "blue light" When the gallery person finally questioned that I looked familiar, I explained that this was due to me being the core and shell superintendent on their six story addition to the auction house, and that I was here to see the Jackie gleason exhibit of the Honeymooners kitchen. At this, she simply replied "Oooh", turned and walked away without another word. Regards Jonathan - who doesn't know anything about the saw ---- Start of Message 133191 ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-05-08 15:28:53 Subject: Stanley No80 scraper improvement Gentle Galoots, Some months ago I posted a webpage on how to modify a Stanley No80 to get it to perform a bit better .. based upon decade old memories of what I had done to mine and Steve Reynolds' interest in it. Thanks to Tony Seo, I acquired an 80M yesterday and went through the same exercise once again last night. Gave it the same full treatment. This time I realized what I had forgotten, and I documented it all for anyone else to try. The good news I couldn't remember --- at least on the 80's I've worked on, all the modifications are reversible if you want to sell the one you have later for a better one. The link for the updated website is: http://home.mindspring.com/~cdinde/modifyano80scraper2 Charlie Driggs Newark DE ---- Start of Message 133192 ---- From: "greg" Date: 2004-05-08 05:32:27 Subject: Re: Whatsit?? Until 1742, producing steel was a difficult task. The quality of the steel was often unreliable. The steel was made by heating iron bars which were covered in charcoal. The heating was continued for up to a week. The material produced was called blister steel. Blister steel was then turned into shear steel by wrapping blister steel bars up in a bundle and then heating them again before forging the bundle. The heat and the action of the forge hammer welded the rods together as they were hammered to the size required. This shear steel was used to make razors, files, knives, swords and the other steel items for which Sheffield became famous. > > > > > >There are some other puzzling things about it too. Like what is "shear > > >steel?" > > > ---- Start of Message 133193 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-08 18:28:54 Subject: RE: Galoot Winos Baking Soda and Vinegar is the old safe-for-kiddies science experiment. You can easily confirm the production and existence of carbon dioxide. Simply light up a candle or three. Now pour your bowl of invisible carbon dioxide gas over them and watch them go out. Carbon Dioxide is not flammable and by pouring it over the candle flame it smothers oxygen's access to the flame's wick and the combustion process stops for lack of oxygen. I think it was something like this used for those old style fire extinguishers, too. Baking Soda and a different acid. Turning over the fire extinguisher set the process in motion. Funny enough, I still have three of these down the basement as well. They're beautiful. Solid copper tanks with nice plates on them. I have been trying to figure out a way to incorporate them into my living area -- they're too tall to be a coffee table. They're too nice looking to just dispose of. I've seen them go for more than fifty bucks a piece in fine shape like the ones I have. > [Original Message] > From: gary may > To: John Sawchak ; oldtools > Date: 5/6/2004 1:06:30 AM > Subject: RE: [oldtools] Galoot Winos > > --- John Sawchak wrote: > I've heard of people using Baking Soda and Vinegar mixed in a large > bowl. Pour the invisible gas over the open liquid finish can. Same as > bloxygen and such. I haven't tried it just yet. > > Hi GGs: > Jim Thompson sent me a note outlining this procedure, and I have to > say, it makes sense to me---anyone can see from the evaporation of > dry ice that CO2 is heavier than air, so it'll pour very nicely, > visible or not. The only question is: does the reaction of vinegar > and soda really produce pure CO2? > I know that if you dribble a bit of thinner into a can of oil-base > a few minutes before closing the lid, the evaporating spirits will > lift the oxygen up out of the can, and help prevent skinning---I have > long experience with this procedure working well, not counting my > Dad's experience, and he taught me when I was a kid. I bet the same > thing'd work with alcohol and shellac: a few drops of alcohol on top, > then once you can really smell the stuff rising out, cap the > container. > I'll try the science fair method soon, > if I don't hear different advice--GAM of Seattle > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 133194 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-08 17:13:12 Subject: New estate sale finds I have been striking out regularly at estate sales, but today I scored some stuff at a gloatable price. The whole mess as shown for $5. There was a 2 car garage with so much junk in it that everywhere it was 3 to 4 feet deep. Very difficult to maneuver in there. And there were 2 outbuildings that were just as bad. I spent 3 hours pawing through the mess of junk, and I do mean junk. There was a pull down ladder leading to storage in the garage rafters, but I couldn't get over to it today. I will try again tomorrow morning. I wonder why some people never throw anything away? Even worthless junk? I got a Perfect Handle screwdriver with the wood intact and it is marked "Ryan's-made in USA." It has a hex at the base of the handle. I haven't seen or heard of this brand. A #2 Bedrock cap iron with a chip out of one corner. 2 big Estwing hammers and an Estwing axe. A strange looking boring tool. 2 good quality bar clamps. A rusty #4 Stanley with a broken tote. A Victor micro-torch. About 20 sheets of wet or dry paper. A Klein Tools Knife. And a couple of other items. I cleaned up the screwdriver and put a picture of it up too. http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/PhotoAlbum55.html The first 4 pictures. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 133195 ---- From: "William West" Date: 2004-05-09 00:38:49 Subject: re: New estate sale finds Sorry, Jim, nice finds but..... All I would have been thinking was.. "Somewhere in here is the rest of that Bedrock!!" -Wm. West ---- Start of Message 133196 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-05-09 00:56:37 Subject: re: Stanley No80 scraper improvement Charlie neat ideas and well explained. I'll have to try it as soon as I can work through the seriously overdue honey do's, cleaning the latest bunch of bay saws and boxing up some junk for brother Al's zap tank. In galoot terms I'm gonna do it just dont hold your breath. Steve ---- Start of Message 133197 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-05-08 21:17:22 Subject: Re: New estate sale finds Jim, That axe is an Estwing camper's axe. I have one, which I had to special order, from a local hardware store. That axe works quite well, for throwing, overhead, at targets (stationary). Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, MA > . 2 big Estwing > hammers and an Estwing axe. > > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA > > ---- Start of Message 133198 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-08 18:19:34 Subject: Re: New estate sale finds On May 8, 2004, at 5:38 PM, William West wrote: > Sorry, Jim, nice finds but..... All I would have been thinking was.. > "Somewhere in here is the rest of that Bedrock!!" > Yep, and I kept trying to find it for all the 3 hours before the sale closed. Tomorrow morning I will be back trying to find it again. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 133199 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-08 18:23:08 Subject: Re: New estate sale finds On May 8, 2004, at 6:17 PM, Alan Perreault wrote: > Jim, > > That axe is an Estwing camper's axe. I have one, which I had to special > order, from a local hardware store. That axe works quite well, for > throwing, > overhead, at targets (stationary). > Cool!! I had never seen one like it before. I almost broke my arm getting my wallet out when the seller said $5 for the whole pile of stuff. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 133200 ---- From: "Lamar keeney" Date: 2004-05-08 21:49:48 Subject: Re: New estate sale finds I'm surprised that you didn't dislocate his shoulder given him the money. good find. Lamar >From: Jim Thompson >Reply-To: Jim Thompson >To: "oldtools" >CC: "oldtools" >Subject: Re: [oldtools] New estate sale finds >Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 18:23:08 -0700 > > >On May 8, 2004, at 6:17 PM, Alan Perreault wrote: > >>Jim, >> >>That axe is an Estwing camper's axe. I have one, which I had to special >>order, from a local hardware store. That axe works quite well, for >>throwing, >>overhead, at targets (stationary). >> > >Cool!! I had never seen one like it before. I almost broke my arm getting >my wallet out when the seller said $5 for the whole pile of stuff. > >Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 133201 ---- From: "Michael R. Hamilton" Date: 2004-05-08 20:58:03 Subject: Re: Galoot Winos John said: .... like this used for those old style fire extinguishers, too. ..., I still have three of these down the basement as well. They're beautiful. Solid copper tanks with nice plates on them. I have been trying to figure out a way to incorporate them into my living area .... I have a friend who has one of these beautiful items that has been turned into the body for a tall table lamp. Ends up being related to electrons, but stunning none the less. Regards, Mike Hamilton Plainfield, IN ---- Start of Message 133202 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-08 23:31:09 Subject: RE: Galoot Winos First of all don't put words into my mouth. I never said hydrogen production via zinc and HCL was a "kiddie science experiment", you misread that into it as you seem to do a lot, Gary. Secondly I'm glad you realize hydrogen isnt much of a danger EXCEPT IN CLOSED AREAS. That is because hydrogen is element #1 on the periodic table and as such it has a very low relative density. Meaning it is lighter than PRACTICALLY EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD. I'd continue this fascinating conversation longer but my pizza is done. LAter... > [Original Message] > From: gary may > To: > Date: 5/8/2004 7:13:02 PM > Subject: RE: [oldtools] Galoot Winos > > John--- > Candles going out does not prove that vinegar and soda produces > CO2, it only proves that something is produced that puts candles out. > CO would put candles out too, for instance, and would also oxidize > many compounds, making it value-less for preserving finishes. > On this "kiddie's science experiment" thing, the classic kid's > experiment that I recall for making hydrogen was not etching metal > with acid (as you said in an earlier post) it was electrolysis...This > is what I'd be careful of, if I was worried about hydrogen hazards in > cleaning of tools. > But I'm not: Hydrogen is much safer than most flammable materials, > since is literally flies away when spilled, unlike gasoline or jet > fuel. 2/3 of the passengers on the Hindenburg survived---I doubt > that even 1/3 of the passengers in a flaming jet crash have ever > survived. > my 2c; gAM > --- John Sawchak wrote: > > Baking Soda and Vinegar is the old safe-for-kiddies science > > experiment. You > > can easily confirm the production and existence of carbon dioxide. > > Simply > > light up a candle or three. Now pour your bowl of invisible carbon > > dioxide > > gas over them and watch them go out. Carbon Dioxide is not > > flammable and by > > pouring it over the candle flame it smothers oxygen's access to the > > flame's > > wick and the combustion process stops for lack of oxygen. > > > > ===== > ____________________________________________________________ > > Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired > signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and > are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. D. D. Eisenhower > ____________________________________________________________ > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 133203 ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-05-09 07:53:44 Subject: Re: Galoot Winos >>[Original Message] >>From: gary may >>To: >>Date: 5/8/2004 7:13:02 PM >>Subject: RE: [oldtools] Galoot Winos >> >> 2/3 of the passengers on the Hindenburg survived---I doubt >>that even 1/3 of the passengers in a flaming jet crash have ever >>survived. I agree with your point here, but I think the analogy is flawed; how many people in a "flaming jet crash" die due to the flames vs. the impact? I've only seen the video a few times, but I don't recall the Hindenberg crashing to the ground from how many thousand feet at how many hundreds of miles per hour. ---- Start of Message 133204 ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-05-09 09:05:27 Subject: Administrivia - Was: [oldtools] Galoot Winos This thread has the death rattle and should be put out of its misery. Wishing the greatest of Mother's Day to all Galoot Moms. Listmoms, Ralph and Steve ---- Start of Message 133205 ---- From: "Paul Coppinger" Date: 2004-05-09 09:03:19 Subject: Shaker Box Class Galoots, Sorry for the short notice. In Mar, Ralph Brendler held a Shaker Box Class in my shop in East Texas with several Galoots attending. I am teaching another pair of classes on May 21 & 22nd (Fri and Sat). If any local Galoots are interested in attending, please contact me at pac@c... The class is about 5 hours long and each student will take home a set of 3 boxes in either maple or cherry. Breakfast and lunch included, plus materials and instruction for $100. Please let me know ASAP, if interested so I can order materials next week. Best regards, Paul A. Coppinger ---- Start of Message 133206 ---- From: Kurt Date: 2004-05-09 07:05:39 Subject: gloat & ? grinding wheel and slick At a local auction I picked up an awesome unmarked slick that needs a handle and has a huge chunk (1/4"+) out of the working edge. The slick is about 20" long and looks handmade. The first question is how was something like this made normally? There are two "depressions" similar to the neck on a skinny guys neck, right above the breast bone. Is the cone made from two joined pieces? or is it two pieces coming together at the cone? Is there a clue to age in this construction? And I think yesterday at auction I got the solution to the nick on the end.. I got a great 18"+ grinding wheel for 3 bucks that I can use over a couple weeks to grind off that bad section to get it square and sharp again. I guess the are just random museings but I'm curious.. thanks for any insight.. Kurt in Bucks County waiting till I can pick up my date and go see if I'll be able to tell who Bruce Love is at the Mercer folk fest... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 133207 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-09 08:48:02 Subject: Bedrock cap iron I posted a picture of a Bedrock cap iron yesterday and said I thought it must be for a #2. I just compared it to my #3 Bailey and it is a little smaller, but not so much that it might not work. Does anybody have a #2 or #3 Bedrock that they could measure so I can know what I actually have? This one measures just a taste under 1 5/8" wide (1.610") by 4 7/8" overall length including the lever. Thanks. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 133208 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-05-09 11:19:11 Subject: Re: Bedrock cap iron Jim, My flat sided #602 cap is 1 5/8" wide and 5 1/16" long including the lever (measured on the back side). The 603 is much bigger - 1 3/4" x 5 3/16". Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Thompson" To: "oldtools" Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 10:48 AM Subject: [oldtools] Bedrock cap iron > I posted a picture of a Bedrock cap iron yesterday and said I thought > it must be for a #2. I just compared it to my #3 Bailey and it is a > little smaller, but not so much that it might not work. > > Does anybody have a #2 or #3 Bedrock that they could measure so I can > know what I actually have? > > This one measures just a taste under 1 5/8" wide (1.610") by 4 7/8" > overall length including the lever. > > Thanks. > > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 133209 ---- From: "William West" Date: 2004-05-09 17:55:34 Subject: E*ay Bargain of the day Too bad I found this too late to place a bid. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13874&item=- 3290465346&rd=1 -Wm. West ---- Start of Message 133210 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-05-09 14:05:31 Subject: Re: Whatsit?? Greg writes : >Blister steel was then turned into shear steel by wrapping blister steel >bars up in a bundle and then heating them again before forging the bundle. >The heat and the action of the forge hammer welded the rods together as they >were hammered to the size required. This shear steel was used to make >razors, files, knives, swords and the other steel items for which Sheffield >became famous. Would it be safe to say that this steel was also used for making shears ? I know a lot of Sheffield toolmakers made shears for the wool industry. Or does the name refer to some part of the manufacturing process ? Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 133211 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-09 11:34:03 Subject: Re: E*ay Bargain of the day Yeah, what a bummer. But cheer up, I can let you have one exactly like it for a lot less. Mine is priced at only $400. And I believe I have 2 of them in case there are any more disappointed prospects out there. On May 9, 2004, at 10:55 AM, William West wrote: > Too bad I found this too late to place a bid. > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? > ViewItem&category=13874&item=3290465346&rd=1 > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 133212 ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-05-09 16:59:24 Subject: Stanley #80 Question I have never seen a Stanley #80M. Are they marked as such? Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ---- Start of Message 133213 ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 2004-05-09 17:11:05 Subject: Re: Stanley #80 Question At 04:59 PM 5/9/04, Bill Rittner wrote: >I have never seen a Stanley #80M. Are they marked as such? Yep. The M stands for Malleable Iron, I am not sure what the difference between that and good old cast iron is, except that supposedly it was less prone to breakage if it was dropped. To be honest, the one I had was only the 2nd one I have seen (and the first came and went last month). They aren't considered uncommon by any stretch but I would say I see a lot more plain 80's. The other common M tool is the 151M spoke shave. Tony Olde River Hard Goods 350 West Catawissa Street Nesquehoning PA 18240 570-669-9421 The best old tool store in Pennsylvania! http://www.oldetoolshop.com ---- Start of Message 133214 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-05-09 18:26:36 Subject: Re: Stanley #80 Question > Yep. The M stands for Malleable Iron, I am not sure what the > difference between that and good old cast iron is, except that > supposedly it was less prone to breakage if it was dropped. To Tony, I nearly bought the one you had for sale too. It was my ignorance that got in the way. I figured that there must be some reason to prefer the cast iron version since they are in the majority and yet break more easily. Does anyone know what that advantage might be? -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 133215 ---- From: Thomas Conroy Date: 2004-05-09 16:21:13 Subject: Re: Stanley #80 Question Larry, I seem to remember that the malleable iron tools were a lot more expensive when new. Since they have no particular advantage unless you wnat to bounce them on a concrete floor, its no wonder they weren't that popular (though I'm glad that one of my spokeshave is a Record malleable, but that's another matter: I didn't have to pay a premium for it, and didn't know the significance of the red paint and "A" prefix until ten or fifteen years after I bought it.) In fact, I rather question even the advantage for floor-dropping: you may not break chunks out of malleable iron, but I wouldn't be surprised if the impact distorted the casting enough to ruin the tool anyway. Tom Conroy Berkeley >I figured that there must be some reason to prefer the cast iron >version since they are in the majority and yet break more easily. >Does anyone know what that advantage might be?< __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 133216 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-05-09 19:42:26 Subject: RE: Galoot Winos Hello all This reminds me of the time I was out back fixing the lawnmower. Swmbo must have known I was hungry because she brought me out a bologna sandwich. Well there was this big old fly just sitting on the lawnmower handle. He took one look at my bologna sandwich and thought he'd fly on over for a bite to eat. After gourging himself for a long spell, he flew back on over to the lawnmower handle for a liitle rest. He must of really liked bologna, because he decided to fly back on over and for another meal. Only this time he crashed to the ground and broke his neck. ...Just goes to show ya...don't fly off the handle if you're full of bologna. Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 133217 ---- From: "Andy Wilkins" Date: 2004-05-10 09:46:57 Subject: RE: Stanley No80 scraper improvement Dear Charlie, Evidently i've misinterpreted how this scraper functions. Mine chatters too and often i do a final clean-up with hand scrapers which isn't a particularly onerous chore, but it would be nice not to have chatter. But i didn't think it the seating of the cutter nor the way it's held by the "bar" could really be improved: i thought it was intentional that the "bar" only really held the cutter at its edges, so that the "depth adjusting screw" could bow the cutter somewhat. The (poor) result is that the cutter is held firmly at only a few points on its surface, and i suppose you'll naturally get chatter. Is the cutter hard to bow using your setup? And, once it is bowed, do you think that it's still being well-held by the "bar" and the plane's body? Am i way off track here? a > http://home.mindspring.com/~cdinde/modifyano80scraper2 > > Charlie Driggs > Newark DE > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 133218 ---- From: "John J Black" Date: 2004-05-09 19:54:09 Subject: @#$%&*#@$ Square Head Screws.!!!! Just need to vent GG's... Short Version only (too upset at these things to make a long version): SWMBO wants a vanity for the bedroom, newly purchased quarter sawn white oak will match the other bedroom furniture. Spend the time to design a piece of furniture to match our current bedroom set. Everything going great, even the hand planning is not too tough on this white oak. Using soft maple to build the innards; there are 5 drawer bottom supports for the carcass; 4-piece square shape butt construction to cut down on material and weight. Decided to use a little glue and pocket screws to hold the 4 piece butt construction together; was trying to save some time. I could only find pocket screws with square drives. Now comes the bad part.... Every drive I have fits too tight in this overly priced box of Kreg pocket screws; and consequently slips out of the screw heads. I need to get this project finished to show I can build a piece of furniture in under a month (LOL work keeps getting in the way) ... Put too much pressure to try to keep the drive in the screw. Screw driver slips out of the screw and took a 1/8" deep by 3/8" wide gouge out of the side of my thumb. Kind of like pushing the square end of a plane flag through the side of the thumb joint I guess. Its too easy to blame the screws, but stupidity sure figures in there some place..:( Out of a box of 100 screws can't find but 8 screws which allow the drive to properly fit in the screw heads (I tried 5 different drives some new out of the package). Sure glad I paid the exorbitant cost at the wood workers store for those Kreg Screws.... Blood all over the place.. On the wood. Floor, my new bench, everywhere, just glad I moved the stacks of oak pieces out of the way or I would have stained them too... Ohhh well the bandage is holding my blood in, I'll probably have too loosen it to get some blood to the end of my thumb in a while though. Guess I'll go back and try to grind one of the drives down a bit and get this thing together... Thanks for letting me vent... Best Regards, John John J Black (A Machigaloot with a sore thumb and blood to clean up all over the place) ---- Start of Message 133219 ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-05-09 20:40:41 Subject: Re: Stanley #80 Question Larry said (about Stanley No. 80M scrapers: > I figured that there must be some > reason to prefer the cast iron version since they are in the > majority and yet break more easily. Does anyone know what that > advantage might be? I can't imagine any advantage to the cast iron version. I speculate that the No. 80 had a 1898 start and sold a bunch during the hayday of handtool production. By the time the improved No. 80M came around in 1930, the world was in the the clench of the powertool demon. That's idle speculation mind you, and I hope I'm not flying off the handle full of balony sandwich. Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 133220 ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-05-09 20:47:12 Subject: Re: LODI Dividers? Sandy commented about naming tools: > > Or maybe young Billy Schollhorn (1834-1890) had a girl friend named "Lori > DiAngelo". [snip] When you own the company I guess you can name any product > anything you want and to hell with metaphors. :-) > Than Stanley should certainly name a great handtool for Lori, the angelic-voiced, extremly helpful, and very knowledgeable customer service rep. Regards, Steve - with a new clue about Sydna's Sloot (beyond backwards spelling) ---- Start of Message 133221 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-05-09 17:49:36 Subject: Re: @#$%&*#@$ Square Head Screws.!!!! >Thanks for letting me vent... > John It ain't much consolation, but, like Roy, I have left forensic evidence on practically every truly large project I've ever completed. In fact, I practically have a sliding premonition scale as to the success of the project proportional to the blood loss involved. So, your project sounds like it's destined for the Smithsonian And yeah, the only thing that could ever possibly be wrong with Robertson screws is the inevitable pitiful fit of the drivers. Grinding is always essential. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 133222 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-05-09 19:59:04 Subject: RE: @#$%&*#@$ Square Head Screws.!!!! I was putzing with them a month or so ago and noticed the same thing. I don't think square drive is as good as it is hyped up to be. Likewise my local store only carried the square drive scress. Worse yet I made my own jig so I don't even have a bit long enough to drive them in well. I guess I will have to find a place that sells the phillips head. When I bought the original Kreg ones I had thought they were phillips because that is all I had seen talked about on tv and magazine articles. I bought a ten pack of double ended extended #2 phillips bits. I just finished going through most of several hundred deck screws when I was first being introduced to square head screws. A 5 pound box of 3 inchers, and a pound each of some shorter ones and after those experiences I have pretty mixed feelings on those sq drives in general. They seem to hold tight but when they do start slipping the slip really bad. I sometimes wonder why someone doesn't take this up one notch and invent triangular drive screws. Hopefully slippage would be less of an issue. BTW, when it does start to slip the one thing I found that helped was grinding the tip of the square drive bit off a bit. It allows it to seat better once again. > [Original Message] > From: John J Black > To: oldtools > Date: 5/9/2004 6:56:20 PM > Subject: [oldtools] @#$%&*#@$ Square Head Screws.!!!! > > Just need to vent GG's... > > Short Version only (too upset at these things to make a long version): > > SWMBO wants a vanity for the bedroom, newly purchased quarter sawn white oak > will match the other bedroom furniture. Spend the time to design a piece of > furniture to match our current bedroom set. Everything going great, even > the hand planning is not too tough on this white oak. Using soft maple to > build the innards; there are 5 drawer bottom supports for the carcass; > 4-piece square shape butt construction to cut down on material and weight. > Decided to use a little glue and pocket screws to hold the 4 piece butt > construction together; was trying to save some time. I could only find > pocket screws with square drives. > > Now comes the bad part.... > > Every drive I have fits too tight in this overly priced box of Kreg pocket > screws; and consequently slips out of the screw heads. I need to get this > project finished to show I can build a piece of furniture in under a month > (LOL work keeps getting in the way) ... Put too much pressure to try to keep > the drive in the screw. Screw driver slips out of the screw and took a 1/8" > deep by 3/8" wide gouge out of the side of my thumb. Kind of like pushing > the square end of a plane flag through the side of the thumb joint I guess. > Its too easy to blame the screws, but stupidity sure figures in there some > place..:( > > Out of a box of 100 screws can't find but 8 screws which allow the drive to > properly fit in the screw heads (I tried 5 different drives some new out of > the package). Sure glad I paid the exorbitant cost at the wood workers > store for those Kreg Screws.... > > Blood all over the place.. On the wood. Floor, my new bench, everywhere, > just glad I moved the stacks of oak pieces out of the way or I would have > stained them too... > > Ohhh well the bandage is holding my blood in, I'll probably have too loosen > it to get some blood to the end of my thumb in a while though. Guess I'll > go back and try to grind one of the drives down a bit and get this thing > together... > > Thanks for letting me vent... > > Best Regards, > John > > John J Black (A Machigaloot with a sore thumb and blood to clean up all over > the place) > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 133223 ---- From: Brent Beach Date: 2004-05-09 18:07:53 Subject: Water stone vise and sharpening jigs Galoots I have just put up a web page http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/stonevise.html showing a(nother) jig I just built so I could use my plane iron sharpening jig with a water stone or an oil stone. I have been trying to find a way to avoid using my 1" belt sander to do the rough grinding of the 25 degree bevel on these blades. With this new jig, which I call a "stone vise", I can use my standard technqiues and try out fast cutting water stones and oil stones. Don't use wood for this jig. I am looking around for suitable plastics. Brent ---- Start of Message 133224 ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-05-09 21:34:30 Subject: Re: Stanley No80 scraper improvement Andy asks .... > Is the cutter hard to bow using your setup? And, once it > is bowed, do you think that it's still being well-held by > the "bar" and the plane's body? Am i way off track here? Andy, In my experience, what I'm doing to the No 80 has little effect on the thumbscrew bowing the iron .. it does take a bit more force to turn the adjusting thumbscrew, but honestly, I do think that has more to do with the fact that I'm using the thicker/stiffer Hock iron than the more uniform and stronger clamping. The pivot point for bowing the iron doesn't change -- the bar hasn't been relocated down towards the cutting edge, which would make it more difficult. I've had no significant difficulty adjusting deflection or bow in the iron to change cutting depth in the decade I've used the first one I modified. As for whether it is still being well held ... the significant reduction in chatter on difficult grain tells me the answer is "yes". Charlie ---- Start of Message 133225 ---- From: "Jon Endres, PE" Date: 2004-05-09 21:40:52 Subject: RE: @#$%&*#@$ Square Head Screws.!!!! > -----Original Message----- > From: John J Black [mailto:jjblack@w...] > Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 7:54 PM > To: oldtools > Subject: [oldtools] @#$%&*#@$ Square Head Screws.!!!! > > > Just need to vent GG's... John, I have never had a problem with either the Kreg screws or any other square drive, including ones bought from McFeeley's and others bought from Canadian Tire in Quebec. Two possible solutions - either get the McFeeley's screws and stop using the expensive Kreg name brand, or grind down your driver bit until it fits. A few light swipes with a sharp small file should work fine. After using square drive screws for the past several years, I will never use anything else (except in drywall). Jon Endres - convinced they're the best ---- Start of Message 133226 ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 2004-05-09 22:32:15 Subject: Mephisto auger bits Hi, All Having just acquired a set of 13 Mephisto auger bits, I found out more about them. The DAT has Mephisto Tools as makers of augers and bits in Hamden, CT and Hudson, NY. The tool roll on my set is stamped as "The W. A. Ives Mfg. Co., Wallingford, Conn. The DAT has William A. Ives as a maker of augers, bits, and handles in New Haven and Wallingford, CT; but there is no mention of the Mephisto brand under his entry. The OLDTOOL Archives includes several messages about Mephisto but leaves a little unclear the relationship between Ives and Mephisto. There is also some misreading of the name as "WAIVES". It is now clear to me that W. A. Ives in Wallingford made the Mephisto bits --- and excellent ones they are! Trevor ---- Start of Message 133227 ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-05-09 22:11:43 Subject: My latest plane John Black just posted a project report about the fun he's been having with the wood we picked up last weekend , so I thought I'd do the same. For those who weren't following along, John organized a "group buy" of about 600 bf of beech from a sawmill in Charlotte MI (about 25 miles SW of Lansing), for a handful of wooden planemakers. I made the long drive up from Chicago, and was so happy with the mill prices that I bought a bunch of cherry to go with my 100bf of beech. Here's my part of the haul, all nicely stickered: http://www.brendlers.net/oldtools/pics/woodpile.jpg It's nice to have a little extra stock, particularly something hard to find like beech... Anyways, while John was off experimenting with using blood as an ingredient in mission finishing, I was making a plane. This one was a bit of a challenge for me-- a double bead, in a tiny size. One of my favorite techniques is to stick a small profile on the inside of a M&T frame, and miter the edges to make a smooth profile. To do this on 4/4 stock and still have enough wood to make a groove to set a panel in, you need tiny profiles. A 3/16" or smaller bead is what I normally use, but this gets boring after a while. Since tiny profiles are quite scarce, and making planes is such great fun, it's a natural for my planemaking excursions. I have always hankered after a double bead, since there are a lot of times sticking panels where I *really* want to go the other direction, so that's what I chose to make. http://www.brendlers.net/oldtools/pics/dblbead1.jpg This was surprisingly tricky to make, since you need to get two reference surfaces perfect. The stock here ended up about 1/8" narrower than I wanted it to be after all the tweaking to get the two sides perfectly straight and parallel, but I still had enough room for the profile. The stock is laminated beech, with cocobolo wedges and boxing. This is my usual choice, both for looks and durability. This particular piece is not finished yet-- I still need to mark, grind and harden the irons. As I was making the scratch stock for the profile, I decided to go a little crazy. Instead of a normal quirked bead, I decided to go with something a little more exotic-- a bead with cove return. This profile is normally found in MUCH larger sizes (3/4"+), but I thought it might look interesting on a small bead too: http://www.brendlers.net/oldtools/pics/dblbead2.jpg The look I am going for here is a bead "floating" away from the main stock. We'll have to see if that's the look I end up with. When it's finished the cove probably won't look any different than a bevel return, but hey-- it was fun to make! ---- Start of Message 133228 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-05-10 09:25:09 Subject: Re: Whatsit?? cpmueller@c... wrote: > > Find the pix here, all the way at the end: > http://home.comcast.net/~cpmueller/wsb/html/view.cgi-photos.html-.html Tony Murland calls something identical a "door check plane" http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/0303.html and a tool by that name is listed in the FTJ Auction: http://www.finetoolj.com/toolsalespring04.html (and, yes, Google was involved in finding that!) Perhaps a "reference advantaged" galoot can find a more primary reference, given this "key word" BugBear ---- Start of Message 133229 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-05-10 06:50:38 Subject: Re: Stanley #80 Question > Larry, I seem to remember that the malleable iron tools were a > lot more expensive when new. Since they have no particular > advantage unless you wnat to bounce them on a concrete floor, its Leave it to me to pass up an item I should have bought. Clearly, your explanation makes sense. Steve's thoughts that they simply came later in the history of electron burning is also a plausible explanation. Either way, I should have bought Tony's 80M :-) -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 133230 ---- From: "Jerry Palmer" Date: 2004-05-10 11:37:06 Subject: RE: @#$%&*#@$ Square Head Screws.!!!! And switch to Cherry for your projects. Blood stains seem to enhance the color of cherry. Jerry ---- Start of Message 133231 ---- From: Charlie Driggs Date: 2004-05-10 08:29:38 Subject: Re: Stanley #80 Question What was that old phrase that used to be appropriate to these situations, ah yes .... "Neener, neener ...." > Leave it to me to pass up an item I should have bought. Clearly, your > explanation makes sense. Steve's thoughts that they simply came later > in the history of electron burning is also a plausible explanation. > Either way, I should have bought Tony's 80M :-) There will be another ... somewhere. Regards, Charlie Driggs Newark DE ---- Start of Message 133232 ---- From: JTWad@a... Date: 2004-05-10 09:35:04 Subject: Re: @#$%&*#@$ Square Head Screws.!!!! I just don't understand this thread-- I'm an enthusiastic convert to square-drive screws, which I get from McFeely's. The #6s take a smaller drive bit than the #8s and above, but with the proper bit the fit is always excellent and cam-out nearly impossible at reasonable torque levels. By comparison, Philips head screws strip if I look at 'em crosseyed--and, judging from the number of munged cross slots I see, I'm not alone. There was a discussion of Philips vs Robertson history here a couple of years ago; it was mentioned that Henry Ford went with Philips (at least in part) because they did cam out before over-tightening and breaking. It's handy to be able to stick a square-drive screw onto a bit and stretch over to a hard-to-reach place, too--no magnet required. Now maybe I'm happy because most of my screws and bits come from one source, but I've got other square-drive hardware (both screws and bits) as well and never had a problem. What am I missing, besides the blood? John Wadsworth, in Delhi, NY ---- Start of Message 133233 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-05-10 10:16:50 Subject: RE: need a little help Good morning, >Yes I think that's the way to go. Lapping hasn't done the trick. >Time to do some serious hogging. > This finally did it!!! My Shapton water stones are back off the DL (colorful american sports vernacular for disabled list Jeff) I have to eat my words regarding the speed at which these ceramic water stones cut. Seems that if you actually maintain them and lap the haze off every 10-20 sharpenings, they cut like champs. Materials used - plastic tub, nylon brush, Dawn dish soap, and sacrificial x-coarse diamond plate. I used water for a lubricant. The diamond plate survived this experiment. Thanks to all who helped with advice and humor to raise my spirits. Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 133234 ---- From: "John J Black" Date: 2004-05-10 10:17:02 Subject: RE: @#$%&*#@$ Square Head Screws.!!!! John (TWad@a...) just doesn't understand this thread-- I'm not quite sure what the problem was with the Kreg batch of screws I picked up either. I usually consider an error like this a "seat to mouse" type error first, figuring it must be something I'm doing wrong, but I checked a bunch of different bits. They were all supposed to be for a size #2 square head driver. I finally used a new Dewalt brand #2 bit and filed it down a bit to make it work better. One thing I did notice was that the cheaper knock-off bits, you know the ones that come in them 50 to 100 bit sets. The short ones meant to fit in a holder, were for the most part straight on the square tip; or very little measurable taper. The Dewalt and another name brand which I can't remember right now were slightly tapered on the square tip. The tapered bit end caused the drive bit to work much better and, like you say, hold the screw while inserting it in the hole. I imagine these screws are up-set on a cold-header type machine to put in the square drive pockets, so I guess they must be slightly tapered too just to allow the tool to exit after punching the pocket. Course I could be wrong as I have never seen any of the newer screw making machines. I'm also not sure about the numbering on the sizes as I'm new to this type screw. My package for the drivers said they were a #2, but you mention a size #6 & #8. Are the drive sizes of these screws consistent across brands? I did get that part of the job I was working on finished last night and the square bit I altered worked just fine after that. So maybe I'll try the McFeely's in the future and just stick to one brand type. Best Regards, John John J Black (A Machigaloot, still with a sore thumb) Email: john@j... Cell 586.855-7975 Like I always say ... If it wasn't for me there wouldn't be anyone like me around ---- Start of Message 133235 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-05-10 10:26:05 Subject: Re: Whatsit?? Hi All, I'm not sure the plane Tony is selling is really identical to Pete's. Salaman's Dictionary shows a Coachmaker's Door Check Plane as a fairly similar type (maybe like what Tony has), but with the blade tips exposed on both sides. Pete's only had the right side blade tip exposed. Whelan's The Wooden Plane mentions the Coachmaker's Door Check Plane, but doesn't picture one; he also says the blade is exposed on both sides - possibly info he got from Salaman. Described as used to clean up rebates - sort of like a Badger Plane as has been suggested here as a possibility. I'd earlier checked both Salaman and Welan looking for Pete's plane and these hadn't jumped out at me as being it. Pete's is quite possibly just a variation of the type, but that still leaves a question of why not made per the "norm"? I've sent Jack Whelan an email asking for his thoughts on this and will let you all know if he has any of significance. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 133236 ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-05-10 07:39:42 Subject: Re: @#$%&*#@$ Square Head Screws.!!!! Jim: I'm with you on this one. I have been using square-drive screws from McFeely's for some time and they fit snug on the bit. I have also used square-drive from other sources (just don't recall the source at this time) and never had a problem. As far as the blood goes . . . it has been mentioned here many times that if we avoid the power tools we avoid the blood. But of course there are exceptions to every rule. Rgards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "oldtools" Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 6:35 AM Subject: Re: [oldtools] @#$%&*#@$ Square Head Screws.!!!! > I just don't understand this thread-- > > I'm an enthusiastic convert to square-drive screws, which I get from > McFeely's. The #6s take a smaller drive bit than the #8s and above, but with the > proper bit the fit is always excellent and cam-out nearly impossible at reasonable > torque levels. By comparison, Philips head screws strip if I look at 'em > crosseyed--and, judging from the number of munged cross slots I see, I'm not > alone. There was a discussion of Philips vs Robertson history here a couple of > years ago; it was mentioned that Henry Ford went with Philips (at least in part) > because they did cam out before over-tightening and breaking. > > It's handy to be able to stick a square-drive screw onto a bit and stretch > over to a hard-to-reach place, too--no magnet required. > > Now maybe I'm happy because most of my screws and bits come from one source, > but I've got other square-drive hardware (both screws and bits) as well and > never had a problem. > > What am I missing, besides the blood? > > John Wadsworth, in Delhi, NY > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 133237 ---- From: Matthew and Cathy Groves Date: 2004-05-10 09:57:43 Subject: Emhof Update 5.10.2004 Hello All, Much thanks for your patience. Life has been topsy turvy, but it's on an even keel right now. I've spoken with Fred Emhof about some potential spoon bits and reamers for us. Fist off, Fred was ask kind of a man as you can speak with, as many of you already knew, and I knew as well, but not first-hand until now. We spoke of our mutual experiences in central Nebraska and it turns out he's familiar with my area. Secondly, there are changes afoot with Fred's business, and such as it is, there will be some time before it's completely straightened out. He's not sure how it will affect him, and thus us. He wants me to call back in a month or so, but here's some potential ideas we talked about. #1 Shipping. As it stands, he charges $10 to ship an order, so we could save in this area for sure. #2 Surface Polishing. This is one of the final steps in the process of creating these bits, and though it is pretty, it doesn't affect much, says Fred. Leaving this part off could be a way to slice (or ream, perhaps) some off of the price. #3 He was going to think of other win-win ideas, as will we. Now, as well there are outside forces such as the price of his steel doubling that may prevent him from retaining even his current prices. He was not at all doubtful of our intentions, and I hope that it works out for us. Again, thanks for your patience, and it looks like we're on hold for now. Matthew Groves Kearney, Nebraska ---- Start of Message 133238 ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-05-10 08:05:57 Subject: Re: @#$%&*#@$ Square Head Screws.!!!! John Sawchak wrote: > I was putzing with them a month or so ago and noticed the same thing. I > don't think square drive is as good as it is hyped up to be. Wow, I've had just the opposite luck. I bought a slew of McFeeleys (with the drivers they sell) and haven't had a single problem with them at all; I love the things. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 133239 ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 2004-05-10 11:14:34 Subject: Re: gloat & ? grinding wheel and slick At 10:05 AM 5/9/04, Kurt wrote: >At a local auction I picked up an awesome unmarked >slick that needs a handle and has a huge chunk (1/4"+) >out of the working edge. The slick is about 20" long >and looks handmade. The first question is how was >something like this made normally? There are two >"depressions" similar to the neck on a skinny guys >neck, right above the breast bone. Are you talking about something like this? http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/slick1.jpg This one isn't as pronounced as some I have seen. > Is the cone made >from two joined pieces? or is it two pieces coming >together at the cone? Is there a clue to age in this >construction? To my eye from this one and others, it looks like they would gather the iron together to form the neck then flatten the lower area out thinner, then roll it around a mandrel to form the socket. On this one you can see where the ends were forged welded together to make the socket. Age wise, without a name, its hard to say. The one I have pictured is a Wm Beatty & Sons. The Beatty folks worked in and around the Chester area from 1802 thru the late 1880's and I have seem a number of both their slicks and their larger framing chisels. Could possibly be a Beatty, some times their name stamps were pretty light. Hope this helps Tony Olde River Hard Goods 350 West Catawissa Street Nesquehoning PA 18240 570-669-9421 The best old tool store in Pennsylvania! http://www.oldetoolshop.com ---- Start of Message 133240 ---- From: nutbrown@c... Date: 2004-05-10 16:10:17 Subject: FS Hey guys, In an effort to reduce my VHS inventory and make room for GIT Barney tapes, I'm selling an original VHS of The Woodwright's Shop, The Carpenter's Toolbox. This is the episode where Roy builds the toolbox that he's carrying at the very beginning of every show. Excellent condition. $20.00 includes shipping. Money order or Paypal. First to email me off list gets it. BTW, I finally tracked down the Oct. 2000 issue of PWW, the one w/ Roy's new treadle lathe plans and plans for a "Galoots Saw Till". If you buy the tape and want a copy of these plans I'll throw them in for free. Keith...who's attempting to build a saw bench like one in Hasluck's "The Handyman's Book" ---- Start of Message 133241 ---- From: "Bramel, Jim" Date: 2004-05-10 12:40:22 Subject: Wisconsin Information I got what I think is a nice tool over the weekend. I know=20 it really does not fit in with most of what we talk about here but here goes. I got a bronze cement jointer made by=20 S & H MFG CO, CLINTON WIS. It has a nice wooden handle that is not plain like most of them - has some rings turned on it. I have been googling but have not found anything. I thought maybe some of you Wisconsin galoots are also historians. Maybe it was the polished bronze that turned me on. I will put a=20 picture out tomorrow. Thanks, Jim =20 ---- Start of Message 133242 ---- From: Gregory Isola Date: 2004-05-10 10:07:20 Subject: Re: My latest plane Ralph proudly flashes yet another cool, special-purpose molding plane from his workbench: http://www.brendlers.net/oldtools/pics/dblbead2.jpg and raises an issue I've pondered recently: One of my favorite techniques is to stick a small profile on the inside of a M&T frame, and miter the edges to make a smooth profile. ************************* Ralph: Do you mean miter the ENDS of the stuck beads, where they meet at the M&T joints? I've done this (ok, once), and I thought it worked great. Several of my old galoot texts, though, cite this method as inferior to coping the profiles on the rails where they meet the stiles as it offers no protection against shrinkage. Is this really necessary with a 3/16" bead? Of course, these are the same books that also illustrate nifty miter templates for slicing one's beads at a perfect 45. Hmmm... Greg Isola Alameda, CA proudly flashing his tendency to overthink ---- Start of Message 133243 ---- From: Scott Stager Date: 2004-05-10 12:17:13 Subject: Re: Folk Fest and Stuff Well, Duh. I have looked at this before and failed to recognize the alternate wedge capability. And I would think an added bonus is that with the height of the dumhead fixed with the sloped platform moving up and down, once a horse is adjusted for a given persons size, the top of the work piece would always be at the correct height no matter how thick the piece. Much better than adjusting the dumhead up and down on a fixed slope platform. Very nice --Scott At 10:01 AM 5/8/2004, you wrote: >>It is FolkFest weekend at Mercer Museum. >>http://www.mercermuseum.org/folkfest/index.html >Bruce shoots some shave horses. >Ahhhhh, good ol dumbheads all! Must be a neighborhood thing and somebody >with long shave horse experience started it. Dumbhead rocks! > The classic horse design has one drawback. Work capacity. They aren't > adjustable so you're pretty much stuck with a narrow range of workpiece > sizes. Time for my annual pitch! > I put my work support platform on hinges and use wedges to regulate the > height. The wedges are held together with a batten so they move together. > Slide in or out for instant adjust. From nuthin to 4" thick capacity in a > wink Here's my old drawing, once again. > http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/horse.html > yours, Scott > >Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: >http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: >http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools +=======================================================+ Scott Stager IT System Support (573)-882-9289 University of Missouri System ---- Start of Message 133244 ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-05-10 13:27:11 Subject: Re: Stanley #80 Question Tom wrote....." > Larry, I seem to remember that the malleable iron tools were a lot > more expensive when new. ..... > __________________________________ Looking in my original 1929 era Stanley Catalog a reg. Stanley 80 scrapper sold for $1.40 while the 80M,[ which is described as being " designed esp.for manual training use"] sold for only .35 cents more. Before someone says "Why back then you would work all week for .50 cents.!" I will point out that it cost an extra .25 cents for a 5C corrugated plane over a regular no. 5 and lots of people didn't seem to have any trouble paying that for something that gave them a minimal.[if any] advantage. I also don't buy it that the reason we don't see to many 80m is because they came out in 1930,[or 1929 according to my catalog] and it was at the end of hand tool use. Most of the regular no. 80's I see are probably from around here or later and of course lots of them were sold for the next 40 or 50 years after the 80M came out.. I have had and sold a few 80m's and in my experience they do not bring much if any over a reg. 80 so I guess most people today don't think they need one either. I don't know but probably most people do not buy a plane thinking at the time they will be dropping or breaking it so they don't worry about it.......Now lets talk about why the "indestructible" sheet metal no 118 low angle block plane is more common then the cast iron 60 1/2........ Todd ---- Start of Message 133245 ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-05-10 12:27:03 Subject: Re: My latest plane Gregory Isola asks about my beaded frames: > Do you mean miter the ENDS of the stuck beads, where they meet at the M&T > joints? I've done this (ok, once), and I thought it worked great. Several of > my old galoot texts, though, cite this method as inferior to coping the > profiles on the rails where they meet the stiles as it offers no protection > against shrinkage. Is this really necessary with a 3/16" bead? Coping does indeed make a better joint, but for quirked profiles it is not possible to cope (think about the geometry of a quirk, and you'll understand why). For these profiles, I will cut the mortise piece to have a profile like this: _______ _____/ | |_____________ And my tenon piece to have a profile like this: | | | | |_____/ | | |__| The width of the mitered section is exactly the width of my molding profile. It's pretty easy joint to cut, and so long as the profile is not very wide it will not show significant gaps when the humidity changes. To use this trick you really need to use a profile 1/4" wide or less (including the quirk), or be willing to live with a small gap. 1/8" or 3/16" beads work great. I've used 1/4" beads on some larger pieces, and these do develop gaps in winter, but with the larger scale it's still really not that noticeable. -- Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL "He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; he who dares not is a slave" - Wm. Drummond ---- Start of Message 133246 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-05-10 13:29:55 Subject: Re: Wisconsin Information Hi Jim & All, The DAT dates the S.&H. Mfg. Co. at -1910-. I'm guessing we found them listed in one 1910 source and had no other data re how much earlier or later they also worked. They're in the DAT's Supplemental Annex where the state (WI) is listed, but not the city - assume that's Clinton as Jim said. As a point of reference, the DAT has no pre-1900 makers working in Clinton. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 133247 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-05-10 14:19:23 Subject: Re: Stanley #80 Question > Looking in my original 1929 era Stanley Catalog a reg. > Stanley 80 scrapper sold for $1.40 while the 80M,[ which is > described as being " designed esp.for manual training use"] sold Todd....I kept waiting for the shoe to drop in your msg, providing what YOU thought the reason for their rarity was. You've dismissed both release date and cost as possible reasons why they aren't more available and as far as I can tell, you don't see any advantage to the cast iron #80. So why do YOU think the 80M is so rare? Do YOU think there is any advantage to either the 80M or the 80 when in use? > came out.. I have had and sold a few 80m's and in my experience > they do not bring much if any over a reg. 80 so I guess most > people today don't think they need one either. I don't know but One thing I'm quite sure of is that what people 'want' in vintage handtools these days has little to do with the relative value of the tool in use. All one need do is look at the going rate for a Stanley #1 and #2. As nobody here has suggested a virtue of the cast iron #80 over the malleable iron #80M, one has to wonder why Stanley didn't just make them all from malleable iron if price was no big deal. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 133248 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-05-10 11:40:14 Subject: Re: Stanley #80 Question Yo Larry I think it was because the regular cast 80 works well enough and it's pretty sturdy on it's own. So the oldtimers didn't buy the new M-series and the newbies bought belt senders. Most of the steel bodied planes and malleable iron stuff seems to have been aimed at vocational training and even this was losing steam by the time they were released. So now they're desirable mainly because they ain't ordinary at a 20 to one ratio, minimum. Well, they're also sturdier but like I said, the 80 is already pretty sturdy. I once packed mine to the mine and scraped 4' square PVC filter press plates back to flat. About 60 of them, both sides. It came home in one piece. There's an odd thing going on with the #12 scraper plane. The 12 1/2's with a wood sole cost more when new, so your average guy said to himself "Whattam I a helpless dolt? I can't cut a little block of wood and bolt it on??" So now, a 12 with no holes is worth more, a marked 12 1/2 is worth more than that, but a 12 with holes drilled for adding your own sole is cheapest by far. Lots of those around so less collector interest. Users delight though so that might change eventually. I've had a plain old 80 (not a speck of japanning left) in service for a couple decades and it's still holding up fine. But I never thought to bend the blade clamping bar (way to go Charlie!!) and that has helped it even more. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 133249 ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-05-10 15:08:56 Subject: Re: Stanley #80 Question I had wrote...." > > > Looking in my original 1929 era Stanley Catalog a reg. > > Stanley 80 scrapper sold for $1.40 while the 80M,[ which is > > described as being " designed esp.for manual training use"] sold > Larry wrote.... > Todd....I kept waiting for the shoe to drop in your msg, providing > what YOU thought the reason for their rarity was. You've dismissed > both release date and cost as possible reasons why they aren't more > available and as far as I can tell, you don't see any advantage to > the cast iron #80. So why do YOU think the 80M is so rare? ..... > One thing I'm quite sure of is that what people 'want' in vintage > handtools these days has little to do with the relative value of > the tool in use. All one need do is look at the going rate for a > Stanley #1 and #2. > > As nobody here has suggested a virtue of the cast iron #80 over the > malleable iron #80M, one has to wonder why Stanley didn't just make > them all from malleable iron if price was no big deal. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------ ...Ahh ,hmm,... I sort of thought I answered why I thought the 80M is uncommon,[I wouldn't call them rare] when I wrote in my original message ," probably most people do not buy a plane thinking at the time they will be dropping or breaking it so they don't worry about it"....While it is certainly true that what a Tool Collector Today might want in a tool doesn't have much to do with how well it works, and probably a desirable collector tool is even more rare the less useful it is[i.e. the no. 1] I think most vintage tools sold today, esp. a common one like a 80 scraper are going to users who we would hope put some value on the usefulness of the tool. If you think about it is the ability to drop your 80 scraper on the floor and not break it really all that important to most users other then maybe clumsy kids in schools,[who Stanley said was the market for the 80M]..... OK I bet lots of us here own 80 scraper planes, now lets see a show of hands to those that dropped theirs and busted it Why didn't Stanley make all 80's out of malleable iron? I don't know maybe because there wasn't much of a market for them other then from those butter finger Vo- Tech school kids. I imagine if the 80M outsold the regular 80 with other buyers the regular 80 would have soon been dropped and who knows maybe even bench planes would have been made out of Malleable iron as well. I just don't think there was a demand for them because they were an answer to a problem that most people didn't know they had. Of course for conspiracy fans out there maybe a point could be made that Stanley wouldn't want to make "indestructible" planes because they would loose the market of people buying replacement tools that they dropped and broke....hmmm?.......Todd ---- Start of Message 133250 ---- From: "Jim Cook" Date: 2004-05-10 15:10:26 Subject: RE: Tool Hunting in New England Steve, If you're really going to give up your best secrets, I guess you should = tell people that the Brimfield, MA antique show, starts up this week. =20 You'd think Martin and Pat, then Sandy and George would have cleaned = this place out, but if you take your time, and think of it as a = wonderful place for a ten mile hike with lots of interesting scenery, = you won't be disappointed if you don't find anything. This is where I found my Rodier's 22" patent plane a couple of years ago = (I got it really cheap, then trolled this list to try and find what it = may be worth so I could maybe sell it, and no one bit, so I made a nice = walnut replacement tote for it, and decided to keep it). The point is = that you never know what you'll find if you look under enough tables... Jim Cook Newton, MA =20 > Every once in a while it seems there is some esrtwhole galoot=20 > traveling through New England (such as recent one masquerading as=20 > a business trip to Hadley, MA). It occurred to me that having a=20 > central reference point of Galoot recommeded shops, booths, FM's=20 > would be a nice thing to have. To that end I have started such a =20 > page on my website. Of course my ramblings are pretty much right=20 > around southern NH and maybe some in MA. I realize this is a=20 > little bit like asking for favorite fishing spots but hey guys,=20 > really, we all know Pat and Martin have already been there ahead=20 > of us now metter where it is. So, I'm asking that folks send me=20 > suggestions for New England tool haunts to list. Lets keep it=20 > brief: are there lots of tools? high end stuff? how do you get=20 > there? You guys know what we are all looking for! ---- Start of Message 133251 ---- From: Jim Wallbridge Date: 2004-05-10 13:30:26 Subject: Re: Stanley #80 Question On Sunday, May 9, 2004, at 04:26 PM, Larry Marshall wrote: > >> Yep. The M stands for Malleable Iron, I am not sure what the >> difference between that and good old cast iron is, except that >> supposedly it was less prone to breakage if it was dropped. To Larry and Fellow Galoots From a metallurgical point of view the differences that I can see that migh be of importance are that the Malleable iron is much more resistant to brittle failure and the grey iron absorbs energy much better although I do not know how much effect that might have. Does anyone notice a difference with regards to chatter? I would always go for the malleable for small tools cost being equal and in fact would in general would be willing to pay a premium for it with the amount depending on the risks of breakage. Even if you break the malleable it is much more repairable as well by soft soldering, brazing or welding with possible reservations on type of welding . jim (James ME Wallbridge P. Eng (retired).) Libertarian, Metallurgist, Wood & Metal Worker, Fly Fisher, Resident of Calgary, Canada's new head office location of choice. Permission is hereby given to use any or all information herein, as an attributed quote, unless the body of the message states otherwise. ---- Start of Message 133252 ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-05-10 12:38:23 Subject: RE: @#$%&*#@$ Square Head Screws.!!!! On 10 May 2004 at 10:17, John J Black wrote: > I'm also not sure about the numbering on the sizes as I'm new to this type > screw. My package for the drivers said they were a #2, but you mention a > size #6 & #8. Are the drive sizes of these screws consistent across brands? There's two series of numbers going on here - the Robertson (square drive) numbering system for the various size drivers (numbers 0 through 4 in increasing size) and the size of the screws. Canadians being clever folks, they also colored the driver bits for those of us who can barely see lttle numbers. The #1 (green) bits correspond to the #6 size screws, and the #2 (red) bits to the #8 screws. This is a general rule, and there are exceptions. The McFeely's catalog points out when a screw size does not take the expected bit size. But the red and green ones will get you through most jobs. I pretty much use these screws exclusively nowadays, and have hex shaft bits in both sizes for both the Yankee adapters (which require wire detent bits) and the brace adapter (which seems to take either wire or ball detent). I have noticed a bit of "cam out" with the #8 screws/#2 bits. But many of these are dual-purpose screws, which can take either phillips or square drive. This may be part of the problem. Or maybe my McFeely driver bits are getting worn, as the problem seems to be increasing. They are all tapered on the sides. I have never noticed the #6 screws/#1 driver combination slipping, but I mostly work with the larger screws. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 133253 ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-05-10 15:41:19 Subject: Weekend Rust Hunting While I had no luck finding anything this weekend a friend did. He found a MF 709 with mild surface rust only for $15. It was fun to see it. I have only seen pictures. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ---- Start of Message 133254 ---- From: vladimir spehar Date: 2004-05-10 15:52:57 Subject: STW Blade Blowout! How cheesy is that headline :o) Hi folks, We are clearing out our remaining A2 blades. Any size blade is just USD 25 plus $5 for shipping. Factory 2nds (very much usable could be a few thou thinner or a nick here or there. There is no damage to the actual cutting part of the blade)are USD 20 plus 5 shipping. Get a kewl BEVELLED (like the infills) chip breaker for $25 add USD 3 to the shipping price. Get 'em while they last! www.spehar-toolworks.com Thank you. Vlad ===== Cheers. Vladimir (Vlad) Spehar Spehar ToolWorks. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ---- Start of Message 133255 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-05-10 19:32:06 Subject: Re: gloat & ? grinding wheel and slick > Beatty & Sons. The Beatty folks worked in and around the Chester area from > 1802 thru the late 1880's and I have seem a number of both their slicks and > their larger framing chisels. Could possibly be a Beatty, some times their > name stamps were pretty light. Hey...I have one of these. Got it for $7 or $8 last summer. Mine just says "BEATTY Cast Steel." http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/images/beattyslick.jpg It has a home made handle, but is in great shape (very sharp when I got it). The guy I bought it from (young guy) said he used to work doing timber framing and it was his... >Kurt in Bucks County waiting till I can pick up my >date and go see if I'll be able to tell who Bruce Love >is at the Mercer folk fest... Humm...I was there (with SWMBO and the GITs - great name for a band) on Sunday afternoon. I even had my Galoot hat on! We all had fun - but I was a little disappointed - overall there were less crafters (and correspondingly, less Galoot'ish ones) that last year. GIT #1 was fascinated this year by the woman who made tin-ware (who was making a coffee pot) - now I know what a tin-crimping machine (I think that is what it was called) looks like...and how those old soldering irons are used. Bruce Love Pipersville, PA (who can guess what auction Kurt was probably at - but whose Saturday morning rust hunting outings are very limitted until Spring Soccer is over.....) ---- Start of Message 133256 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-05-10 19:43:00 Subject: Who was here before me? Okay...I have have to ask this because I figure there is more simple explanation. The other weekend at a flea market, I picked up this. http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/images/sawdriver.jpg It is a screwdriver tip for a brace with a gap filed in the end. I had to buy it (thrown in it with some auger bits) because it sure looked familar and I just had to confirm my suspicions. The gap is a little crooked and so it appears to not be original (ie. filed later)....and, yes - when I got home and held it up to a split nut on an old backsaw, it appears to fit perfectly. So...what this the work of some prior saw-crazed Galoot? Or, is there some other reason(s) one would do this to a screwdriver... Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 133257 ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-05-10 18:33:10 Subject: WTB I need a nut for a Jackson backsaw. It is brass and for the small thread. Also, needed is a Russell Jennings 8 fine thread screw auger bit to complete a set. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ---- Start of Message 133258 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-05-10 17:24:59 Subject: Re: Stanley #80 Question > I think it was because the regular cast 80 works well enough and > it's pretty sturdy on it's own. I guess the only question is what "it" is. One 'it' is that I no longer feel like an outlier when it comes to not understanding the virtues of one over the other :-) > So the oldtimers didn't buy the new M-series and the newbies > bought belt senders. And thus the 'late date' hypothesis proposed by Steve. > So now they're desirable mainly because they ain't ordinary at > a 20 to one ratio, minimum. Well, they're also sturdier but like Threads have a way of twisting and turning. This one is quickly distorting. It started with me asking for a reason why the 80 was more popular than the 80M. I've never seen any mention of the 80M being more desirable in any context or by anyone :-) > I said, the 80 is already pretty sturdy. I once packed mine to I'll buy that too, but if you buy Todd's notion that price wasn't important, then 'plenty sturdy' can't compete with 'will bounce'. Frankly, I remain ignorant of 'reasons' but now feel that in operation either works fine. I'm inclined to believe that price does matter, however. Todd sees "only 25 cents". I see, in his numbers, a more than 20% price differential between the two. That'd be enough to make me think twice about buying the 80M if I didn't figure I was going to be playing basketball with my scraper. It seems to me that this sort of price differential would affect Stanley's marketing, consumer views and that this is the "reason" for them being restricted to school use. To me, what's important is that the "reason" has nothing to do with operation. My initial thoughts were that there must be such a difference and I was wrong. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 133259 ---- From: mimulus@p... Date: 2004-05-10 15:52:17 Subject: Some major tail-less apprentices The local paper ran an article yesterday on the Hull-Oakes wood mill near here, which still uses steam powered machinery. Here's the article: http://www.gazettetimes.com/articles/2004/05/06/news/community/thu02.txt Anyone up for a group galoot visit? cur- in sunny Oregon (Left coast of Massachusetts, Jeff) ---- Start of Message 133260 ---- From: "Mike Guenther" Date: 2004-05-11 00:00:59 Subject: re: Who was here before me? I seem to recall sending a Galoot one almost like it a while back. Mike G. in the foothills of S. Carolina ---- Start of Message 133261 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-05-10 20:25:26 Subject: Re: Galoot Winos Michael campbell wrote: > 2/3 of the passengers on the Hindenburg survived---I doubt > that even 1/3 of the passengers in a flaming jet crash have ever > survived. > GG recently saw a show on that Hindenburg crash and they came to the conclusion that it was not the hydrogen was ignited by a flammable aluminum compound coating on the fabric. If the coating had not gone up, the hydrogen may not have either. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 133262 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-05-10 20:27:20 Subject: Re: Bedrock cap iron Jim Thompson wrote: > Does anybody have a #2 or #3 Bedrock that they could measure so I can > know what I actually have? > > This one measures just a taste under 1 5/8" wide (1.610") by 4 7/8" > overall length including the lever. > > Thanks. > > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA Jim: My round sided K2 Bedrock clone has a lever cap of exactly those dimensions. It has no markings on it, however. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 133263 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-05-10 19:40:22 Subject: Re: Stanley #80 Question Todd, It certainly would have been nice if they had made their #141 planes of Malleable iron. (DAMHIKT) :-) Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "todd Hughes" To: "oldtools" Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Stanley #80 Question > I imagine if the 80M outsold the regular > 80 with other buyers the regular 80 would have soon been dropped and who > knows maybe even bench planes would have been made out of Malleable iron as > well. I just don't think there was a demand for them because they were an > answer to a problem that most people didn't know they had. ---- Start of Message 133264 ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-05-10 20:45:55 Subject: Re: Who was here before me? Bruce wrote....." > The other weekend at a flea market, I picked up this. > > http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/images/sawdriver.jpg > > It is a screwdriver tip for a brace with a gap filed in the end. >.... The gap is a little crooked and so it appears to not be original > (ie. filed later)....and, yes - when I got home and held it up to a > split nut on an old backsaw, it appears to fit perfectly. > > > So...what this the work of some prior saw-crazed Galoot? Or, is > there some other reason(s) one would do this to a screwdriver... > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There were many other items that used split nuts other then just saws. Just the other day I had to tighten the pommel on an old Marbles Ideal sheath knife that used a split nut to hold it tight and used a modified like this screw driver for the job. As well as many knives and swords I have seen nuts like this on old mechanical and electrical equipment.Really hard,[like impossible] when you find something like this to figure out the just why and for what job it was modified for. Once I did find a split nut screw driver made out of an old bone handle fork in a box with some vintage saw sharpening equipment which led me to think it was made for saws,..... but then I sort of wanted to think that too......Todd ---- Start of Message 133265 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-05-10 20:47:12 Subject: Re: Stanley #80 Question todd Hughes wrote: > Of course for > conspiracy fans out there maybe a point could be made that Stanley > wouldn't > want to make "indestructible" planes because they would loose the > market of > people buying replacement tools that they dropped and > broke....hmmm?..... What about the "unbreakable" Vaughn and Bushnell forged series - they were never a big seller, but of course so were a lot of other manufaturers not big sellers. ed Minch ---- Start of Message 133266 ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-05-10 22:03:15 Subject: Re: Stanley #80 Question Larry Marshall wrote. >As nobody here has suggested a virtue of the cast iron #80 over the >malleable iron #80M, one has to wonder why Stanley didn't just make >them all from malleable iron if price was no big deal. > > Larry Stanley never seems to miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity! How can they sit there and allow LN and LV and C to take over the plane market and create all this new interest in hand planes simply by making planes which work out of the box better than the Stanley will after hours of tuning? There must be nearly a dozen, just guessing, stanley planes which worked fairly well and now cost $1000 or so because they only made them for a few years. Several of which are now being made by LN. Stanley wouldn't even have to redesign their line just simply machine the parts to fit and tighten the mouths. Ken Ypsilanti, MI ---- Start of Message 133267 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-05-10 22:23:28 Subject: More on thumbnails... GG, The thread last week about thumbnail moulding had me thinking over the weekend, so I did a little playing. I don't have a thumbnail (Casing Molding) plane, but I do have a Quarter Round that I picked up somewhere. http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/images/quarter_round1.jpg Before I knew any better, I used this plane to cut "thumbnails" in 3/4" boards - although I guess I am stopping before it cuts the second part of the round. http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/images/moulding1.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/images/moulding.jpg This gives me a pretty tall thumbnail that I like (for stuff like edges for shelves) On Saturday, I was curious so I experimented with cutting four edges of a chunk of pine laying on my bench. The second part of the experiment was sharpening this plane to attempt to do a passable job on the endgrain. In the end it wasn't too bad - but if I ever do this again I will score a line across the face of the board first to help eliminate the tear-out I got on the face (which was better after I sharpened the plane). http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/images/moldyboard.jpg Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 133268 ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-05-10 22:27:23 Subject: Tyzack steel ? I have an 8" brass backed Tyzack Talisman saw and a chunk of curly maple. I've been thinking about polishing the back and making an open dovetail saw handle for it and retoothing to 15 ppi. Before I put all that effort into what starts out as a pretty crappie saw I thought it might be a good idea to ask if anyone has played with Tyzack enough to know if the steel is too soft to stay sharp for a reasonable length of time? Thanks Ken Ypsilanti, MI ---- Start of Message 133269 ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-05-10 22:30:17 Subject: Re: Stanley #80 Question Ken wrote....." > Stanley never seems to miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity! How > can they sit there and allow LN and LV and C to take over the plane > market ....... There must be nearly a dozen, just guessing, stanley > planes which worked fairly well and now cost $1000 or so because they > only made them for a few years. Several of which are now being made by > LN. Stanley wouldn't even have to redesign their line just simply > machine the parts to fit and tighten the mouths. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- LN and LV never seems to miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity! How can they set there and allow Stanley to take over the cheap plane market? They wouldn't even have to redesign their line just simply make them cheaper............I think Stanley probably is doing OK money wise with the planes they make today and the market they are aimed at, often it is hard to remember the vast majority of hand tool users don't want to pay $300 for a plane to fix a stuck door and some cheap and crappy new Stanley Plane will work fine thank you very much. The very small niche market of wood workers that want a better quality plane is probably quite well filled by LN or older vintage Stanley planes that can be picked up for peanuts. As for making those now rare Stanley planes to sell to modern wood workers it is important to remember the reason they are rare and valuable today is that wood workers traditionally didn't want them or find them particular useful and that is why there ain't many of them today.......What has changed I wonder?......Todd ---- Start of Message 133270 ---- From: JPark1812@a... Date: 2004-05-10 22:41:54 Subject: Re: [oldtools]EAIA Anyone? Headed Out in the morning on the way to Wilmington for EAIA. I have to be there early and leave early Saturday to get back for sons graduation. Anybody else headed there ? Jim Parker Alabama ---- Start of Message 133271 ---- From: "Andy Wilkins" Date: 2004-05-11 12:48:06 Subject: Paul Comino ! Hey Paul, Don't have your number/email. Any firm plans for the timber+WW show? a ---- Start of Message 133272 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-10 19:53:04 Subject: Malleable iron vs. cast iron I know that ordinary cast iron comes directly from a blast furnace. I am not sure where malleable iron comes from, but I am going to venture an uneducated guess that it had to go to an open hearth furnace for further refinement before it became malleable iron. Cast iron has a very high carbon content and has to be cooked to reduce that carbon. Before they figured out that you could inject oxygen into the open hearths to speed the cooking of the iron into steel it was about an 8 hour heat to convert it. Malleable would require less time.(Again, just guessing here.) My guess on the malleable vs. gray tools is that the malleable cost more to produce and was also another step in a casting process that they didn't need. Metallurgists, please correct me! Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 133273 ---- From: "Pete Bergstrom" Date: 2004-05-10 22:16:10 Subject: Scanned brochure for Pike sharpening stones Surfing the 'net this evening, I ran across a scanned brochure that was interesting: http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike.txt http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike-cvr.gif http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike-fpg.gif http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike-p03.gif http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike-p04.gif http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike-p05.gif http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike-p06.gif http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike-p07.gif http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike-p08.gif http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike-p09.gif http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike-p10.gif http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike-p12.gif http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike-p13.gif http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike-p22.gif http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike-p23.gif http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike-p24.gif http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike-p25.gif http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike-p36.gif http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/Pike-p37.gif ---- Start of Message 133274 ---- From: "Bret Rochotte" Date: 2004-05-10 23:20:09 Subject: Sargent Rabbit? and other plane questions Hello; I was able to do a little rust hunting today in Portland IN, (Tri-State Gas Engine spring swap meet) I saw a Stanley 196, welded casting asking price $500. I thought the seller was knowledgeable about tools so when I saw a Sargent rabbit plane (like a Stanley #10) I thought it too would be expensive, but he said $(I'm not telling,) I grabbed it. The plane was very dirty and the tote was covered with paint. I thought it might be a #9 size smooth plane with the sides cut out. What makes me hopeful is that the blade has a #29 on it as does the bed, behind the frog. So, is a #29 a rabbit plane or did somebody make one out of a regulat #408? The blade and chip breaker are "T" shaped and are the full width of the bed so I thought they may have been ground down from a wider blade. The blade does have a 29 on it so is this a real rabbit or a butchered smooth plane? I also bagged a nice gage (Vineland NJ, pre-Stanley)smooth plane. Are the Pre-Stanley's worth more or less than the Stanley's? BTW the swap meet will be on all week and new loads arriving daily. I left plenty for you, go get it. BTW I saw a Seigly plow plane for $200. No cutters, otherwise seemed complete. Is it worth that? I can't afford expensive tools. Thanks, Bret Bret and Wendy Rochotte New Bremen, Ohio rochotte@b... ---- Start of Message 133275 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-05-10 21:28:45 Subject: Re: Stanley #80 Question Hi Ken--- That's an interesting point, perpetually---Gibson, Gretsch and Fender are making blueprinted copies of their early guitar models and selling them for a premium---Sargent still makes locks, and could probably tool up to make the "Ladybug" plane or any of the OTs. Stanley is still making some planes, and other OldTools---are they really so short-sighted, or is it actually impossible for them to compete with L-N? BTW---I drop my cast iron C-clamps all the time and have never broken one. Drop ONE cast iron Stanley plane..... best to you; gAM, Seattle, out. --- Ken Pendergrass wrote: Stanley never seems to miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity! > How can they sit there and allow LN and LV and C to take over the plane market __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 133276 ---- From: "Peter Williams" Date: 2004-05-11 14:57:18 Subject: RE: Malleable iron vs. cast iron > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Thompson [mailto:jdthompsonca@s...] > > I know that ordinary cast iron comes directly from a blast furnace. I > am not sure where malleable iron comes from, but I am going to venture > an uneducated guess that it had to go to an open hearth furnace for > further refinement before it became malleable iron. Cast iron has a > very high carbon content and has to be cooked to reduce that carbon. > > My guess on the malleable vs. gray tools is that the malleable cost > more to produce and was also another step in a casting process that > they didn't need. > Jim, Plain, grey cast iron has the carbon as graphite flakes all through it. It is brittle and doesn't like shock loads (ecept maybe in compression). Malleable cast iron, nodular cast iron, spheroidal graphite cast iron have their graphite in small nodules, rather than finely divided as flakes. This gives the iron a toughness that isn't present in plain grey cast iron. It is used for things that get high loads, immpact loads, etc that would typically cause cracking and breakage of ordinary grey cast iron. For example the Ford 9" diff is a pretty strong piece and up to use in light trucks, high performance cars, etc. When one is to be used for a racing application (Ie. drag racing) that would see abnormally abusive loads they specify an SG casting (you can tell the good one as they have a capital N cast into them to signify "nodular" iron) to prevent failure of the casting. To get the graphite to form nodules they add a third component (magnesium I think) as part of the smelting process. -- Peter Williams ---- Start of Message 133277 ---- From: "Stephen Colebourne" Date: 2004-05-11 19:02:15 Subject: ATTENTION!!south east Queensland Galoots Hi All Well, another year has passed and Brisbane "Working with Wood" show is on once again. Over the last few years Brisbane based galoots have used this opportunity to meet ,greet ,exchange and derange.Paul Comino and myself would like to extend an invitation to all local galoots to join us at the show on Saturday 15Th May .We will be meeting at the coopers display at 11 am. please come and join us in a communal tool drool. I will be available for the next 24hrs to answer any email queries regards Steve Colebourne ---- Start of Message 133278 ---- From: "Jason Knight" Date: 2004-05-11 11:50:31 Subject: saw set how to? Hello all, So I have managed to talk my father in law out of his old saw set- no manufacturer mark, but it is the kind with a tapered wedge as an anvil. I've been looking high and low for instructions. There aren't many parts, so it seems it ought to be pretty easy, but it eludes me. Is there a place to find instructions for this, or is the sort of thing where if you have to ask, you probably shouldn't do it? Jason ---- Start of Message 133279 ---- From: "Pete Bergstrom" Date: 2004-05-11 08:53:36 Subject: Re: saw set how to? "Jason Knight" wrote: > So I have managed to talk my father in law out of his old saw set- > no manufacturer mark, but it is the kind with a tapered wedge as > an anvil. I've been looking high and low for instructions. There aren't > many parts, so it seems it ought to be pretty easy, but it eludes me. > Is there a place to find instructions for this, or is the sort of thing > where if you have to ask, you probably shouldn't do it? http://www.vintagesaws.com, check the library. I'd suggest starting with as little set as you can achieve and see if the saw cuts well in the wood you'll be using it on. If it still binds a little, set the teeth a little more and retry. I have a pair of saws set for softwood, and they have more set than my other saws. For hardwood, I have as little set as I can get away with, and it just makes it important to get the cut started well. Pete ---- Start of Message 133280 ---- From: "Alan Graham" Date: 2004-05-11 09:54:29 Subject: RE: @#$%&*#@$ Square Head Screws.!!!! Gee John - all you had to do was drive across the river to Windsor and = you could have bought proper screws and screwdrivers (or bits for your = drill) at any hardware store. Even with the rising Canadian dollars, they still = would probably have cost you a lot less than you paid to some American company that thinks of Robertson screws as exotic.=20 The most likely causes of your problem are as follows: The screwdriver bits are not properly tapered, thus not seating all the = way down into the screw; or The screwdriver bit edges are not hard enough and have become slightly rounded, allowing it to rotate slightly in the screw head and possibly = "cam out"; or The screwdriver is not matched to the screw - as other have pointed out, there are distinct Robertson sizes for the sockets; or The screws heads are too soft, allowing the screwdriver to distort the socket when force is applied.=20 Since you are a strong man, I assume you at least drilled pilot holes = and perhaps used some paraffin for lubrication before driving long screws = into oak. Enough force will cause even good Robertsons to cam out if the = screw is having difficulty penetrating the wood.=20 I have encountered all these problems, although rarely, over the last = half century of using Robertson screws. The best solution is still to drive = over the bridge and pick up some real Robertsons.=20 Alan N. Graham Honorary Michigaloot Windsor, Ontario ---- Start of Message 133281 ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-05-11 07:34:47 Subject: Re: Sargent Rabbit? and other plane questions --- Bret Rochotte wrote: > I saw a Sargent rabbit plane (like a Stanley #10) I > thought it too would > be expensive, but he said $(I'm not telling,) I > grabbed it. The plane > was very dirty and the tote was covered with paint. > I thought it might > be a #9 size smooth plane with the sides cut out. > What makes me hopeful > is that the blade has a #29 on it as does the bed, > behind the frog. So, > is a #29 a rabbit plane or did somebody make one out > of a regulat #408? The #29 was Sargents equivalent of Stanley's 10 1/2. I had one years ago that I sold for around $100 so I could buy old braces and breast drills. Wish I still had it now, especially considering what even users of that type of plane seem to sell for. > The blade and chip breaker are "T" shaped and are > the full width of the > bed so I thought they may have been ground down from > a wider blade. The > blade does have a 29 on it so is this a real rabbit > or a butchered > smooth plane? > BTW I saw a Seigly plow plane for $200. No cutters, > otherwise seemed > complete. Is it worth that? I can't afford > expensive tools. If you are looking for a user combination or plow plane, I would think that a complete Stanley or similar No45 style plane could be picked up for less than $200--ought to be able to find one for closer to $100 with usable blades. ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ---- Start of Message 133282 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-05-11 07:48:18 Subject: Re: Tyzack steel ? with Tyzack enough to know if the steel is too soft to stay sharp for a reasonable length of time? Hi Ken It's kind of tough to stay in the cutlery business a couple hundred years with really inferior goods. I suppose it's happened, but not like a lot. Can't wait to see the new saw!! Pix I need Pix 8^) yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 133283 ---- From: Al Perreault Date: 2004-05-11 11:01:04 Subject: Re: Sargent Rabbit? and other plane questions Jim, Sunday, I believe, I watched a Stanley #46, with fence and only one blade, go for $36, on Ebay. It looked like decent user shape to me. Al Perreault Westminster, MA > > BTW I saw a Seigly plow plane for $200. No cutters, otherwise seemed > > complete. Is it worth that? I can't afford expensive tools. > > If you are looking for a user combination or plow plane, I would think > that a complete Stanley or similar No45 style plane could be picked up > for less than $200--ought to be able to find one for closer to $100 > with usable blades. > > ===== > Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) > ---- Start of Message 133284 ---- From: "michaeldunham" Date: 2004-05-11 15:13:07 Subject: RE: Malleable iron vs. cast iron "To get the graphite to form nodules they add a third component (magnesium I think) as part of the smelting process." The nodules are formed by heat treating the cast iron. The cast iron is heated to 1650-1750 degrees F and held at temperature for 20-72 hrs depending on size of load. It is the rapidly cooled to 1400 degrees F (2-6 hrs). Then is is slowly cooled (5-15 degrees F/hr) through the critical range. ---- Start of Message 133285 ---- From: Russ Allen Date: 2004-05-11 12:12:58 Subject: Wayne's andersonplanes.com Galoots, I've been helping Wayne with his web site. He is being so British (see archive message 111946- one of my all time favourites :-) that he has not mentioned that there are new infill images on his site. To that end I've added a What's New page lest he continues his Britishness. I think I have fixed the frame resizing issues which caused some of the text to be unreadable. I'd like to hear from anyone have trouble accessing Wayne's site: http://www.andersonplanes.com/ thanks, Russ Allen ---- Start of Message 133286 ---- From: Jack Kamishlian Date: 2004-05-11 13:30:18 Subject: Re: Who was here before me? Sure looks familiar. I've got one down in my shop with some other old tools. They must have used more split nuts in the old days. Cheers, Jack in Endwell, NY 5/10/04 4:43:00 PM, "Bruce Love" wrote: >Okay...I have have to ask this because I figure there is more >simple explanation. > >The other weekend at a flea market, I picked up this. > >http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/images/sawdriver.jpg > >It is a screwdriver tip for a brace with a gap filed in the end. >I had to buy it (thrown in it with some auger bits) because >it sure looked familar and I just had to confirm my suspicions. > >The gap is a little crooked and so it appears to not be original >(ie. filed later)....and, yes - when I got home and held it up to a >split nut on an old backsaw, it appears to fit perfectly. > > >So...what this the work of some prior saw-crazed Galoot? Or, is >there some other reason(s) one would do this to a screwdriver... >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 133287 ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-05-11 14:28:46 Subject: FS Older Stanley 80M Scraper Plane Excellent With all the talk of late on the old tool list about the Stanley 80M scraper guess what the first thing I found at my Tuesday Flea Market was? Yup a real nice Sweet heart era Stanley 80M !, now what the chance of that eh? I sort of took it as a sign from God to put it up for sale for you guys instead of listing it on the ebay. Described by some as being rare and top of the line as an indestructible user this example is in Excellent condition. Has about 100% of it's original shiny black japanning and what appears to be a full length blade,[measures 2 1/4 in. high] which has a notched Stanley logo.No pitting or damage to the blade just some minor staining from storage that will clean if you so desire.Blade holding clamp has a sweat heart logo with the two 1914 patent dates. I think both the plate and cutter are original to the plane and is an example of a type overlap.Nickel plated bar is a little dull with some light freckling, not bad and isn't peeling. All original thumbscrews which do not appear to have been plated.Sole is fine with no damage or scratches just some staining Tool looks like it may have been used once or so and then put away into a box.....Here is your chance to get a classic 80M scraper a tool that you can throw at your neighbors cat, smack your wife upside the head with or drop off your bench and not worry about cracking it and in a condition that would be hard to upgrade from.........Price is only $50 plus actual postage......Todd ---- Start of Message 133288 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-05-11 11:40:24 Subject: Re: Who was here before me? > There were many other items that used split nuts other then just saws. > Didn't I see this in a smudgy bleached out picture of Dingleberry Dobson, perpetual KP mechanic and powder monkey for the south tightening the screws on his cannon fuse saw?? Hey, Better insure it heavy!! 8^) yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 133289 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-05-11 15:26:40 Subject: Roxton Pond update Hi All, Several years ago I posted about a little trip I made to Roxton Pond, Quebec, which was a center for tool manufacturing in times gone past. Wooden plane makers like Monty, Dalpe and others I can't remember right now were there, as was Stanley. I said at the time that absolutely nothing was left of the tool trade except for an old, delapidated, apparently abandoned factory on rue Stanley, with Stanley written on the water tower. I just heard on the radio a few minutes ago that Stanley is being sued by the town of Roxton Pond for 36 million dollars for having contaminated the soil and water table of the town. Not all is rosy with respect to old tools... Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 133290 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-05-11 15:37:33 Subject: Re: FS Older Stanley 80M Scraper Plane Excellent >Here is your chance to get a classic 80M scraper a tool that you can >throw at your neighbors cat, smack your wife upside the head with >or drop off your bench and not worry about cracking it......Price >is only $50 plus actual postage......Todd I'm guessing that shipping insurance is not required on this one.... but if you do send it via UPS we can see how unbreakable it really is :) Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 133291 ---- From: "Geoffrey Parsons" Date: 2004-05-11 19:42:00 Subject: New Fella Looking for Help on Old Braces Happy to have found this group. I hope that one or more of you might be able to help me unravel a mystery that I purchased last year for 5 dollars. The mystery is two braces, age unknown. All I can glean from them is that one is a PS&W Co. 3912 in a clean stainless steel (nickel perhaps?) looking finish. The other, according to the chuck, is a "MADE(STANLEY)IN USA" finished in a rather smashing oxidized finish. The jaws on the PS&W brace bear a remarkable resemblance to those I have found in images of an 8010. I can find no other distinguishing marks on either brace nor on the wooden bits. Are these the famed lost brace of braces celebrated in lore? Any help I could cull from the collective knowledge of this group would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Geoffrey Parsons p.s. I had thought to bring these tools up to good running order. So any pointers along these lines as opposed to collecting would also be appreciated. ---- Start of Message 133292 ---- From: "Sanford Moss" Date: 2004-05-11 16:22:32 Subject: Brimfield Day 1 GGs, With all the lousy cold rainy weather we've been having in the east this Spring, the gods smiled on Brimfield today, and saw to it that the weather was sunny and warm. It was near perfect. Many folks have written to say they enjoy the Brimfield "chronicles," so I'll plan to send in daily reports on what I see going on there. The Brimfield fair is spread out along a mile or two stretch of US 20 in the town of Brimfield, just west of Sturbridge. The several fields where dealers set up are large. So you walk a lot in a day's time. I've found that getting out a few weeks beforehand, and taking a stiff 2 mile walk every day is good training for this event. Today I was primed, gear assembled, and ready to leave the house a little before 4:00am. The drive is 90 miles for me, and takes just about 1 1/2 hours. So I pulled into one of the parking lots at 5:30am, noting that the lot was already much more full of cars and RVs than at the same time in recent years. The crowd promised to be a big one. The open fields were already crawling with buyers. Turning into the first one I ran into one of the more knowledgeable collectors, Frank Kosmerl, from Rochester, and then bumped immediately into Dave Mello from Fall River. So it looked to be a day when the competition for tools was going to be heavy. That turned out to be true, since I talked with at least ten or twelve tool dealers in the course of the morning. But despite the competition, the day started off right. Within 5 minutes out of the truck I pawed through a pile of rusty saws and found a pretty nice combination saw (saw, square, ruler) for a quite low price. This isn't a Disston 43, but any combination saw is worthy. I haven't cleaned the etching up yet, but it clearly is there and reads "Combination / Saw" with the "SAW enclosed in an oval. I was pleased. Then a few booths further on I see some tools in the back and find a modest shelf of tools from which were gleaned a Sawyer machinist's rule (glad to get it), an unfamiliar square, and a dandy Bedrock 605. These were'nt dirt cheap, but weren't unreasonable either. The bonus was the dealer directed me to his partner who was set up around the corner who, he said, had a nice little lievel and a small Stanley square. Well the square was the very uncommon 2" size of the No. 12 "improved try square." The 1887 patent date was clear. But the condition didn't warrant the $250 price tag, so I passed. The level, however, was a different matter. This was unmarked, but was clearly 4" Davis pedestal level with brass acorn finials in quite decent condition. The seller had a fair price on it, but after a little talk with him he agreed (surprisingly) to my really low ball offer. It was the "find" of the day. I have to report, though, that within half an hour I sold the level to another dealer friend of mine for a handsome quick profit. Better a fast nickel than a slow dime! After that the appearance of the good stuff slowed down. I picked up some hand drills, a couple of block planes, a decent old No. 6 fore plane and then had to move back to the truck to unload. Moving to new fields found lots of tool seekers, but not too many nice tools. There were loads of common wooden planes (H&Rs, side beads, etc) way over priced, and the few nicer complex molders had astronomical prices. I'm not sure I know where these sellers are finding their prices (or their market). I did, though, run into some interesting machinist tools. The best was an older Brown & Sharpe No. 152 Thread micrometer--a very uncommon tool. Also I picked up a stunning set of large 3/8" letter stamps, and a dandy complete Starrett dial indicator with all tlhe fixings. By the time I'd moved to the west end of the grounds I'd found a nice Stanley 65 marking gage, a Stanley No. 30 angle divider, and a wonderful Cheney machinist's ball pein hammer with two complete and intact labels on the handle It is a great hammer! Then another drill and a nice Holt brace with the patent clamshell chuck went into the bag. Back for another offload, and then to the eastern end of things. Picking just a tool here and there (Starrett micrometer, nice MF brace, etc) I finally ended with a bit of a bang. First a very nice Disston #12 saw popped up from an unlikely dealer (no other tools), then a very interesting Disston pruning type saw with a marvelous etch, including an 1878 patent date in it. I have to research this a little bit. An good brace then fell into the bag. This one has a "different" ratchet that probably will end up in my collection. Finally, as I was heading for home a neat Standard Rule Co. No. 52 rule appeared. Standard Rule Co. four fold rules in just about any conformation deserve a look, and this one is near the top of the heap, having an arch joint and half bound. I was happy to pay the asking price. It was now 11 am and time to head home. I count it a fun and successful day. Tomorrow the restricted fields begin opening, the first one at 6 am. I'll be there. Oh, and Tony--don't bother, there's nothing left! ;-) Sandy ---- Start of Message 133293 ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 2004-05-11 16:24:12 Subject: Re: Brimfield Day 1 At 04:22 PM 5/11/04, Sanford Moss wrote: >Oh, and Tony--don't bother, there's nothing left! ;-) I hear ya.......... But I'll be there anyways if nothin' but to keep you honest at Mays & J&J's.............. Tony Olde River Hard Goods 350 West Catawissa Street Nesquehoning PA 18240 570-669-9421 The best old tool store in Pennsylvania! http://www.oldetoolshop.com ---- Start of Message 133294 ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-05-11 16:57:01 Subject: Older Stanley 80M Scraper Plane SOLD! Have had more then a couple requests for the 80M but I sold it to the first person that said they wanted it with in a couple min. of my post. Looks like I was wrong in my post of the other day about people not wanting a malleable no. 80 eh?.........Todd ---- Start of Message 133295 ---- From: Kirk Eppler Date: 2004-05-11 13:58:59 Subject: Re: New Fella Looking for Help on Old Braces http://www.sydnassloot.com/brace.htm Sandy has a lot of great info about braces here, and he's so busy pillaging brimfield he may not get to reply himself. Geoffrey Parsons got braced > The mystery is two braces, age unknown. All I can glean from them is > that one is a PS&W Co. 3912 in a clean stainless steel (nickel > perhaps?) looking finish. The other, according to the chuck, is a > "MADE(STANLEY)IN USA" finished in a rather smashing oxidized finish. > > The jaws on the PS&W brace bear a remarkable resemblance to those I > have found in images of an 8010. I can find no other distinguishing > marks on either brace nor on the wooden bits. Are these the famed lost > brace of braces celebrated in lore? -- Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA Process Development Engineering Eppler.Kirk@g... ---- Start of Message 133296 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-05-11 17:33:35 Subject: Swan Morticing Machine , JPark1812@a... wrote: > Headed Out in the morning on the way to Wilmington for EAIA. I have to > be there early and leave early Saturday to get back for sons > graduation. > > Anybody else headed there ? Holy Cow - people coming from Alabama and I have to drive 7/10 mile!! I have an old tool buddy who came up with a Swan morticing machine in very good shape (his description - I have not seen it) and it even has the chuck key that I was not aware it had. He wants $300 for it and he can bring it to the MJD auction Friday morning. Any body interested?/ No affiliation, blah, blah, blah Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 133297 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-11 14:16:17 Subject: Stanley #127 transitional At my carving club this morning one of the members brought in a tool for me to look at. I had not seen one of this particular tool before. It is a Stanley #127 transitional plane about the size of a jack. Strange to me were a couple of things. There was no lateral lever. The adjustment of the blade was accomplished with a lever which pushed or pulled on a nut on the bottom of the blade. The cap iron had a liberty bell cast into its face. The plane was in very good condition. The wood was intact, and the only faults I could find were the horn was partially broken on the tote, and the blade and chip breaker were very rusty. Japanning was about 80%. He paid $10 for it at a garage sale and intends to put it on the mantle. I offered to give him his $10 plus a good clean restored transitional, but to no avail. The questions: Was the plane worth the $10 he paid for it? How unusual is this plane? Should I offer more money, or just forget it? Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 133298 ---- From: brucelove@c... Date: 2004-05-11 22:04:18 Subject: Re: Swan Morticing Machine > He wants $300 for it and he can bring it to the MJD auction Friday > morning. Umm...just to make sure your calendar (and mine) is correct - the auction is Friday evening, right? Bruce Love Pipersville, PA (who hasn't decide whether he is going to attempt to shoot down to Wilmington on Friday or not) ---- Start of Message 133299 ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-05-11 18:19:27 Subject: Re: Stanley #127 transitional Jim wrote..... > > It is a Stanley #127 transitional plane about the size of a jack. > Strange to me were a couple of things. There was no lateral lever. > The adjustment of the blade was accomplished with a lever which pushed > or pulled on a nut on the bottom of the blade. The cap iron had a > liberty bell cast into its face. The plane was in very good condition. > The wood was intact, and the only faults I could find were the horn was > partially broken on the tote, and the blade and chip breaker were very > rusty. Japanning was about 80%. ........ I offered to give him his $10 plus a good clean restored > transitional, but to no avail. > > The questions: Was the plane worth the $10 he paid for it? How unusual > is this plane? Should I offer more money, or just forget it? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is one of Stanley Liberty Bell Planes and was made from 1876 to about 1918.Books for $25-$75 with type one[1876-91] being about twice that .The type 1 will have an eagle on the toe. In my experience it is very hard to sell them for book price unless they are in really great condition.Even in the old tool Hell I live in ordinary examples are pretty common and for a rather rough one like Jim describes $10 is probably a good ball park figure.I try not to buy planes like this [not even for $10] but if Jim wants one for his collection I think he made him a very fair offer. ....With these transitional planes condition is everything and in my experience the price drops fast once you get down past Excellent. Have seen more then a couple sellers put large prices on them because of the Liberty bell 76 lever cap thinking they are from 1876 etc. but they were just being slow heads......Todd ---- Start of Message 133300 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-05-11 20:04:08 Subject: Re: Swan Morticing Machine , brucelove@c... wrote: >> He wants $300 for it and he >> can bring it to the MJD auction Friday morning. > > Umm...just to make sure your calendar (and mine) is correct - the > auction is > Friday evening, right? Yes I meant friday evening. anybody know what the tailgating schedule is?? Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 133301 ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-05-11 21:29:16 Subject: Re: Swan Morticing Machine > > , brucelove@c... wrote: > >>> He wants $300 for it and he >>> can bring it to the MJD auction Friday morning. >> >> Umm...just to make sure your calendar (and mine) is correct - the >> auction is >> Friday evening, right? > > Yes I meant friday evening. anybody know what the tailgating schedule > is?? > http://www.eaiainfo.org/Calendar.htm Go to the page above and click on the link for the registration. Then edit out the backslash and make it a regular slash and the registration form with all the details will come up. The tailgate is tomorrow from 2-5PM. It might be the only activity I can attend. Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 133302 ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-05-11 22:36:50 Subject: Plane Talk - Woodsmith GG"s The Current issue of Woodsmith . . Vol 26 / No.153 has a very good article called, "Perfect Plane Performance". Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 133303 ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 2004-05-12 06:04:50 Subject: Re: Brimfield Day 1 Hi, Sandy and All The way to do Brimfield is by bicycle. I learned that from Roger Smith. I use my folding paratrooper's bike, which arouses interest and some offers to purchase it. Trevor ---- Start of Message 133304 ---- From: Jacques Heroux Date: 2004-05-12 07:13:07 Subject: Re: Roxton Pond update >Dear Galoots, For those who would like to know more about what was made in Roxton Pond=20 and what is left of the Stanley Tool Building please have a look at my page= =20 Gallery 1, 2, 7 (Roxton Pond): http://www.cafe.rapidus.net/jacherou/index.html As Paul said: "Not all is rosy with respect to old tools" Jacques H=E9roux >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: Roxton Pond update >From: Paul Pedersen >Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:26:40 -0400 >X-Message-Number: 15 > > >Hi All, > >Several years ago I posted about a little trip I made to >Roxton Pond, Quebec, which was a center for tool manufacturing >in times gone past. Wooden plane makers like Monty, Dalpe and >others I can't remember right now were there, as was Stanley. > >I said at the time that absolutely nothing was left of the tool >trade except for an old, delapidated, apparently abandoned >factory on rue Stanley, with Stanley written on the water tower. > >I just heard on the radio a few minutes ago that Stanley is >being sued by the town of Roxton Pond for 36 million dollars >for having contaminated the soil and water table of the town. > >Not all is rosy with respect to old tools... > > >Paul Pedersen >Montreal (Quebec) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 133305 ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 2004-05-12 07:29:16 Subject: Re: Who was here before me? At 08:45 PM 5/10/2004 -0400, todd Hughes wrote: > There were many other items that used split nuts other then just saws. >Just the other day I had to tighten the pommel on an old Marbles Ideal >sheath knife that used a split nut to hold it tight and used a modified like >this screw driver for the job. As well as many knives and swords I have seen >nuts like this on old mechanical and electrical equipment. Only problem is - it ain't a split nut at all. Real split nuts are cut completely in half through their diameter. This allows you to do tricks like adjust feedscrew backlash on a lathe or insert new clamps into the middle of an assembly clamped to T-Slots on a mill table. Those old saw nuts are face spanner nuts - with a pair of slots instead of the pair of cylindrical holes that are common now. The modern type, with holes, can be seen on disk s*nd*rs and gr*nd*rs, and is also used as a tamperproof screw head. Another type of spanner nut has a hole or slot cut into its circumference - wrenched respectively with a pin or a hook spanner. This type is often used for jam nuts or positioning something on the axis of a screw. There's nothing quite as frustrating as not having the right spanner wrench. ---- Start of Message 133306 ---- From: Al Perreault Date: 2004-05-12 10:18:29 Subject: Disston Backsaw GG's, The fleas have not been that productive the last couple of weeks. Sunday's acquisition was limited to a wooden architects scale, marked US STD, for $1. However, May 2, I was surfing that big electronic online auction, and I noticed a Disston backsaw, which had only been on the board about 3 hours. The description is titled, Harvey Peace Hand Rip Saw, Antique. The seller had an HP rip saw on the board also. The backsaw had a 14" long by 3.75" tall blade, 3 split nuts, handle had no chips, medallian looks like 1871 per www.disstonianinstitute.com, inch worm logo stamped on blade (1865-1871 per www.disstonianinstitute.com), looks like some rust, but not bad, R.P. CARSLEY neatly stamped on backside of handle in 1/8" high letters, front side of handle still has a trace of the label on the hand hold section. The auction had a BUY IT NOW on it of $19.99. I thought about it for about 10 seconds, then I grabbed it, nearly destroying my mouse with a vicous click. I paid immediately with Paypal, and I received the saw yesterday. The saw came Fedex ($9). When I opened the box, to my horror, the seller had placed the saw in the box, with no packing at all, other than a piece of cardboard bent over the teeth. There was no bubble wrap, or crumppled up newspaper to keep the saw from bouncing around in the box. Unbelievably, the saw was not damaged, and it looks even better than I expected. The blade is dead straight, but it does need a sharpening. Auction # was 3290506128. The Saw Gods Smiled have at me. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, MA Who is smiling all day today also. ---- Start of Message 133307 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-05-12 07:21:16 Subject: Split nut misnomer Ayup!! I had totally forgotten this little bit of information. Jim is absolutely right. A trip down memory lane to my apprenticeship about 50 years ago refreshes my memory. We have all been calling the face spanner nuts "split nuts" when they are not. And the tool that turns our face spanner nuts is indeed a "spanner". (Sorry about that, Jeff.) Now the question is, do we continue to call them by an incorrect name? Or do we all face up to the fact that we have been wrong about this for a long time and start calling them by their correct name? I like to call things by their correct names. Makes me feel all warm and technical inside. :>) On May 12, 2004, at 4:29 AM, Jim Nelson wrote: > > > Only problem is - it ain't a split nut at all. > > Real split nuts are cut completely in half through their diameter. > This > allows you to do tricks like adjust feedscrew backlash on a lathe or > insert > new clamps into the middle of an assembly clamped to T-Slots on a mill > table. > > Those old saw nuts are face spanner nuts - with a pair of slots > instead of the pair of cylindrical holes that are common now. The > modern type, with holes, can be seen on disk s*nd*rs and gr*nd*rs, and > is also used as a tamper proofscrew head. Another type of spanner > nut has a hole or slot cut into its circumference - wrenched > respectively with a pin or a hook spanner. This type is often used > for jam nuts or positioning something on the axis of a screw. ---- Start of Message 133308 ---- From: Brent Beach Date: 2004-05-12 07:56:24 Subject: Re: Roxton Pond update Galoots Jacques has a great site - lots of old tools stuff. He also has, in gallery 4 a mystery tool, a watsit. I have no idea, but someone in the list always gets the watsit. Brent Jacques Heroux wrote: > >> Dear Galoots, > > > For those who would like to know more about what was made in Roxton Pond > and what is left of the Stanley Tool Building please have a look at my > page Gallery 1, 2, 7 (Roxton Pond): > http://www.cafe.rapidus.net/jacherou/index.html > > As Paul said: "Not all is rosy with respect to old tools" > > Jacques Héroux > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Subject: Roxton Pond update >> From: Paul Pedersen >> Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:26:40 -0400 >> X-Message-Number: 15 >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> Several years ago I posted about a little trip I made to >> Roxton Pond, Quebec, which was a center for tool manufacturing >> in times gone past. Wooden plane makers like Monty, Dalpe and >> others I can't remember right now were there, as was Stanley. >> >> I said at the time that absolutely nothing was left of the tool >> trade except for an old, delapidated, apparently abandoned >> factory on rue Stanley, with Stanley written on the water tower. >> >> I just heard on the radio a few minutes ago that Stanley is >> being sued by the town of Roxton Pond for 36 million dollars >> for having contaminated the soil and water table of the town. >> >> Not all is rosy with respect to old tools... >> >> >> Paul Pedersen >> Montreal (Quebec) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 133309 ---- From: "Sanford Moss" Date: 2004-05-12 16:14:49 Subject: Brimfield Day 2 GGs, It was another nice day at Brimfield, weather-wise--but maybe a little on the warm side at noon and after. I rolled out of bed at 3:30am and was on the road before 4. The trip is never a boring one. From my home in Westport, MA (on the coast, right at the Rhode Island state line), the route takes me through some storied tool towns, and it is hard not to reflect on them as they are passed. I first go through Fall River, which was the center of textile production in the 1800s, and its remaining mill buildings stand testimony to that. Next, on I-195 the road goes through Rehoboth, Mass--the home of early plane maker Aaron Smith, who raised a son, Ezekial Smith there. Then the road takes me through Providence, RI, and names like Brown & Sharpe, Providence Tool Co, and Jo. Fuller echo through my head. Rte 146 from Providence joins the Blackstone River Valley below Worcester and passes the city of Woonsocket, RI (Bailey Tool Co. etc) before bringing you to the town of Millbury, Mass where T.H. Witherby started his edge tool business, with Buck Bros. following This is where Buck Bros made their chisels and other edge tools for many years. From Millbury it is a short shot west on the Mass Turnpike to Sturbridge, where in the village of Fiskdale the Snell Mfg Co. produced their auger bits and boring machines. It is a nice start to the day's hunt to think that I might (and probably will) find items made along the path I follow. Wednesday at Brimfield is a day of dedicated field openings--ensuring that fresh merchandise will be available after yesterday's carnage. The first field to open is "New England Motel" at 6 am, with "Heart of the Mart" (9am) and Jean Hertan (12 noon) following. The crowd purchases tickest ($5 entrance fee) and crowds around the entrances. Athe time the gates open and the crowd squeezes in on the dead run. Quite a sight! Things started slowly for me at New England Motel. I walk 3/4 of the way around the fairly small and compact field before finally finding a worthwhile tool (a minty #4). A bit later I found a shelf with a nice hollow auger and a type 2 #71 router for sale. These early routers are not common and have a weird appearance compared to the later ones. The patent date surrounds the opening for the cutter on the base plate, which is heavily japanned. I passed on some other items the fellow had, but had a nice chat with him. Down the way I found a pair of No. 7 jointers, but the owner was asking a bit much for them. I replied with a low ball offer, which he refused--but I put that fellow in mind to return later after the crush of people abated. Then I found a nice English tenon saw in good shape, with a large Stanley try square in decent shape, and a level that is marked with a patent date I'd never seen before. A deal was struck and while waiting for change I spotted a nice little Stubs jeweler's hammer with original handle, to the deal was restructured. Back to the truck to unload. Coming back into the field I spotted a decent Disston #7 from the 1880s that will clean, and then added a sparkling crispy #95, with the two tone disstonite handle. It is in great conditioin. A very clean Stanley #65 marking gage finished off this field for me--for the time being. Having some time before the next field opened, I went back to a field I'd covered yesterday and which had a booth that held a very nice brace that was coveted for my collection. The dealer was a personable guy, but didn't want to sell the brace for less than $200--more than my covet! I'd offered him much less yesterday, and wanted to go back to see if he still had the brace, and maybe a change of heart. Well he still had the brace, but was reluctant to let it go, figuring he had a small gold mine there. So I really chatted him up--showing him some details of the brace and some of the uncertainties about it. Gave him lots of education, I did. Finally he said, well take the brace at your price and enjoy it. I will! The next field to open, Heart of the Mart, is a big field, with hundreds of dealers spread out over a number of acres. After the crush, Trevor's bike would come in handy. Usually it is a tool waste land, and usually there are three dedicated tool dealers set up in it that most likely pick the field before it opens. Today all of those dealers were missing, so there were some things available. Early on after the field opened I was taking a short cut through the tent of an art dealer. So there are paintings hanging all around, but whoa! Here's a small level sitting all alone on a table. Well it is a Davis No. 5 bench plumb and level in the smallest size, 6" long. And it is a type 3 with acorn finials