---- Start of Message 127501 ---- From: Roger Rosner Date: 2004-01-14 09:54:40 Subject: WTB: Stanley 271 I'm finally getting around to the project of making a spokeshave and this sort of gives me an (admittedly flimsy) excuse to acquire one of those nifty little #271 router planes. Anyone have a user they'd be willing to part with? I stumbled on a set of Stanley level sights (in box) that I'd be willing to trade or sell or whatever. I can send a pic if anyone is interested. Roger ---- Start of Message 127502 ---- From: Ted Shuck Date: 2004-01-14 09:06:57 Subject: RE: Activator for CA glue Jeff Gorman wrote: > I've read somewhere that this glue needs moisture to make it set, so > breathing onto the surface can help. Then Andrew Fairbank wrote: > I'd wager that acetone is the solvent which evaporates almost instantly... > Main thing is that acetone worked for Jim. Drawing from old experiences in chem lab, I'd wager that there is a relationship here. Acetone absorbs water from the air, in a manner similar to what alcohol does. It is probable that the acetone that Jim used had a significant percentage of water in it, enough to act as an activator for the CA glue. Makes sense to me... Ted ---- Start of Message 127503 ---- From: "CheekyGeek" Date: 2004-01-14 07:15:21 Subject: re: Phil E's leg vise pics I, for one, thank Jonathan Peck for -what to some- might appear to be a threadjack. That archive thread is an excellent example of what made the Porch so great (dare I say "in the good 'ol days"). Off charter for sure, but a rip-roaring good time and you can just feel the galoot camaraderie in the discussion. It is a prime example of what Jeff Gorman calls repartee (something I think the English will always do better than anyone on earth). While I appreciate the points made yesterday by Richard Wilson and others in their appeals for strictly "on-charter discussion", etc. I can't help but feel that they have had a chilling effect on Porch postings. (Example: Paddy getting all PRIVATE replies to his question). I think we all suffer if we push discussions off-list because then we don't get to decide whether we want to read it or not - the decision has already been made FOR us. I think the List Moms do a good job of stepping in when something really needs saying and like it or not, we can't force anybody ELSE to follow their advice. In the end, the only one we can control is ourself. If everybody just tries to make sure that THEY are doing things right, and gives everyone else wide latitude and forgiveness for minor transgressions - then the Porch will be a better place for it. There is no law requiring you to read every thread or every post and digest mode is a really rotten way to read a listserv. If dealing with mail is annoying to you, then you may prefer reading the posts via one of the excellent web interfaces. Darren Addy Kearney, Nebraska ---- Start of Message 127504 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-14 07:10:01 Subject: Re: Activator for CA glue On Wednesday, January 14, 2004, at 07:06 AM, Ted Shuck wrote: > Drawing from old experiences in chem lab, I'd wager that there is a > relationship here. Acetone absorbs water from the air, in a manner > similar to what alcohol does. It is probable that the acetone that Jim > used had a significant percentage of water in it, enough to act as > an activator for the CA glue. I suppose that it is the moisture on your skin that causes the CA glue to bond to the skin so well and so quickly. I sometimes find myself glued to wooden pieces I am making. Usually before the glue has completely cured. And I have had to get myself loose using acetone. That is how I know it will loosen cured CA glue. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 127505 ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-01-14 10:24:18 Subject: Re: Activator for CA glue Jim Thompson wrote: > I suppose that it is the moisture on your skin that causes the CA glue > to bond to the skin so well and so quickly. Yup. As I learned as a young lad too, if you *DO* get, hypothetically, the glue container stuck to a finger do *NOT* do the typical "sling your hand around" to remove it. Not only does it not work, you end up upsetting people. ---- Start of Message 127506 ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 2004-01-14 11:43:50 Subject: Gilpin (was: Auger bits, makers ...) Bob Nelson wrote: >Roger [Birkhead] asked about some auger maker names ... . > > >Gilpins - A William Gilpin & Co. is listed as a UK maker of plane irons >1868-1946 and a W. Gilpin (no & Co.) is listed as a chisel maker there >with no dates given. This relatively large, diverse and long-lived Gilpin firm seems to exist at the margins of our lore about English tool makers. Maybe because it was not located in one of the major tool making centers? In any event, I've been able to uncover some additional information about the firm and this seems like a good time to "publish" it for the edification of other porch dwellers. The earliest relevant trade directory listings I've found, so far, are from an 1834 Staffordshire directory. These listings are: George Gilpin, Wedges Mill, manufacturer of edge tools, augers, &c. George Gilpin, [Church Bridge] Great Wyrley, steel converters, and edge tool &c. manufacturer [George Gilpin, coal master, Great Wyrley] These locations and operations are also described in some general commentary about the area in the same 1834 Directory. I think it worth repeating here, as it reminds us of the importance of water power for the siting of such works, gives a fuller idea of the enterprise, and provides a rough idea as to when the firm may have been established: "Church Bridge is a small village in Great Wyrley township, 1 mile S. of Cannock, on the Watling street, and on one of the tributary streams of the Penk, where Mr. Gilpin established, about 35 years ago, an extensive manufactory of edge tools, augers, hammers, &c., and a forge, a tilt, rolling and grind-mills, and furnaces for converting and refining iron and steel; all of which are now in a flourishing state, and give employment to a considerable number of workmen. About one mile to the west is Wedges Mill, a hamlet in Cannock township, where Mr. Gilpin has another edge tool manufactory on the Hedgford rivulet." This description would place the establishment of the Church Bridge works at about 1800. I would surmise that the Wedges Mill site had less water power than the Church Bridge site, which raises the question as to why George Gilpin would have had two separate works in such close proximity? Possibly he had purchased the Wedges Mill site from a smaller, competing, firm? In any event, George Gilpin is also listed, in 1835, as an edge tool, and bar iron and steel manufacturer at Wedges Mills and at Church Bridge. Ownership of the firm has changed by the 1842 listing: William Gilpin & Co., Wedges Mills & Church Bridge, edge tool and bar iron and steel manufacturer (and brewer) [William Gilpin & Co., coal masters, Great Wyrley & Pelsall] By 1851, the listing reads: William Gilpin & Co., steel converters, tilters, rollers, edge- tool mfrs., coal masters and brick makers, Church Bridge & Wedges Mills. Bernard Gilpin (of William Gilpin & Co.), edge tool &c. mfr. I've also been able to find listings from 1870 (William Gilpin & Co.), 1904 and 1912 (William Gilpin, Sen. & Co. Limited) - the latter two providing a fairly extensive list of their products as well as information that they had become "Contractors to His Majesty's Government." The 1904 Directory, in a general description of the area around Cannock, indicates that the firm was employing "hundreds of workmen" at that time. An 1876 "WM. GILPIN, SENr. & CO." advertisement gives a fairly clear idea of the diversity of their products: Patent Screw Augers and Boring Bits Heavy & Light Edge Tools, for the following purposes:- Agricultural & Garden | Coopers Bricklayers | Masons & Plasterers Carpenters & Joiners | Quarrying & Miners Contractors, Platelayers, | Ship Carpenters &c. | Smiths & Farriers Plantation Tools, Matchets or Cutlasses, Cane Bills, &c. For all Colonial and Foreign Markets Anvils, Vices, Lifting Jacks Cider Press and other Screws, Chains, &c. Bar, Hoop, and Use Iron Cart Arms, Axle Moulds, &c. Steel of Every Description Hoping this provides some useful information concerning this relatively significant tool making firm. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 127507 ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-01-14 10:42:53 Subject: Re: Using my old tools on a commissioned thingy Kind of similar to what my wife has wanted me to make .... for 30 years. For supporting it you might consider what I saw in a lodge up north. The mantle was attached to the hearth by steel rods about 5/8" in diameter. They had been semented into drilled holes in the stone, and the mantle appeared to have just been friction fit on by having the rods go into drilled holes in the plank used for the mantle. there were 5 or 6 of them in a 12' mantel. John Patrick Olguin wrote: >Gentle Ones, > >I've been commissioned by a close (for now) friend who'd like a nice >(vexing why he'd come to me, in that case) mantle shelf for his rather >large fireplace. It's to be a simple affair, but with a rather deep >(12") shelf, and 80" wide. My approach is to make a torsion box, >approximately 3" in height, topped by the shelf. I'll dress up the >front and sides (and conceal the box) with some crown molding (still >looking for a cheap molding plane with a roman ogee profile... hint >hint, or perhaps a matching hollow/round set). > >The fireplace is big - the opening is nearly 5' wide, and the brick >facade is 96" wide, and goes from the raised hearth to the ceiling. >This thing has quite a bit of presence, shall we say, and so therefore >should the mantle shelf. Owing to the raised hearth and rather rustic >brick, they don't wish a surround. I figure I'll use 6/4 for the shelf, >and 4/4 for everything else. The old mantle is square, painted white >and quite blocky and unappealing. They are sold on the look of a >substantial shelf, with moulding underneath to give it a bit of lift. > >The torsion box is easy - I'll just use a snappy 1/2" dado plane that I >purloined offa Leach a good while back - and install some beefy >supports. Attaching crown molding (moulding, Richard) is no big deal - >I'll just glue some nailing blocks. The interesting parts to me are >doing a mitered (mitred, Jeff) return for the exposed ends of the >shelf, executing a sliding dovetail for the return in the process. A >stopped, mitred return. Hmmmmm. > >The other challenge is attaching the dang thing to the brick. I can >deal with masonry anchors and all that. I'm thinking of using a French >(reference to folks on the wrong side of the channel, Richard) cleat, >like I'm used to employing when hanging cabinets. Probably use screws >(driven in by a nice PWS brace, of course) to keep the matching cleats >together, so some klutz doesn't accidently lift the thing offa the >wall. Installation will be tricky, seeing as the bottom of the box >won't be attached until I've screwed the cleats together from inside. >Gonna have to cut those dadoes very accurately. > >Finish will be shellac (what else?) as it's easily repairable and can >handle the expansion/contractions of a warm fireplace, and of course >for its overall appearance. > >Oh, the reason my poor friend has decided on this is that years ago I >rescued him from certain dismemberment when I repaired a blown-out door >jamb and moulding, mere hours before he had to be out of his old >apartment. My misfortune was that the job went perfectly (he happened >to select the one area of woodDorking - trim carpentry - where I >actually had some experience) and he now thinks I walk on water. > >I welcome your thoughts, suggestions, wild speculations, past >experiences in dealing with actual paid commissioned jobs, etc. We're >going wood-shopping Friday. > >Paddy - in shamelessly sunny Pasadena, Colliefoneyah > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes >http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > ---- Start of Message 127508 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-01-14 09:21:07 Subject: Re: Using my old tools on a commissioned thingy You can use a 6/4 plank for the top but you don't need to. Mine is only 4/4. Especially if you are doing torsion box style you could build the box leaving the bottom open to go on last and hiding all evidenceof how it's attached. Then apply your crown molding over all once it's in place. Just because it looks heavy doesn't mean it has -be- heavy. I cleated mine to the wall using lagscrewed cleats that were tapered on top like a long miter. Then attached mitered pieces on from underneath the top plank(s) so it would hook on and draw itself toward the wall. The side columns were screwed to the studs separately and aren't really atttached to the top at all. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/mantle3.jpg yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 127509 ---- From: Roger Date: 2004-01-14 11:44:27 Subject: More thoughts on Auger bits Thanks again to Bob Nelson and Don McConnell for the information they have provided on auger makers. I'm glad my question has inspired some scholarly work. I took a peek in Dunbar's "Restoring and using antique tools" book last night and realized some interesting points I though I would share. First was the "evolution" of the auger: 1st the single wing twisted around the outside of a rod (and the rod then removed) to form an auger with one lip and one spur (I forget who invented this pattern, and I also realized in my descriptions I had the lip and the spur confused), 2nd the Jennings flatten a rod then twist it to make an auger with two lips and two spurs, and 3rd the Irwin pattern of one long wing and one short wing attached to a solid center to again form and auger with two lips and two spurs. When you look at most modern long electricians or lineman's augers they are mostly of the oldest pattern. I had always assumed they were the most recent design. Is the main reason for this design to reappear because without a solid center they have more room to clear chips? I also wondered about this as to the advantage the the Irwin bits might have over the Jennings pattern. In my extremely simple observations it seems I see more of the Irwin pattern used with a coarse leadscrew (and hence a need for faster/better chip clearance)? One other interesting observation was that one the "older" augers I have there are four spurs (I called them lips before) two below the lip (the part of the auger that actually cuts and lifts the chip) and two above. Why spurs above? I know the purpose of the spur is to score the diameter of the hole to be bored so there is no tearout. Spurs above seem superfluous. I know there are augers with only spurs above the lips (don't know the pattern name here either) and they are very prone to tearout. Any thoughts? Roger in Alabama who knows there are infinitely more lip and spur patterns than those I mentioned ---- Start of Message 127510 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-01-14 12:46:11 Subject: Re: Using my old tools on a commissioned thingy > It's funny... the methods of work threads do get lots of > responses... but they're all private! :-/ I hafta admit, I'm ...ain't it the truth. > guilty of the same thing. I mean, who cares if you found a tool > like this and paid that for it. You know, I like to hear this stuff. Probably just me and my rust-pile deprived life style. To me it's interesting to hear what other people are buying, its condition, etc. Also, more often than not, there are other tidbits (eg - anyone know anything about xxxx) that are interesting. My personal interest is in maintaining my position on this slippery slope so that I can use tools, not collect them but even so, I find tool acquisition to be a real fun thing even if it's vicarious :-) > easy to slough off. But when it comes to doing something, seems > we get a little shy. No sweat. I've already gotten some great With work like mine, it pays to be shy :-) > Anyone else? Ok...ok...you shamed me into it. Here goes. First, I need to tell on myself. Do any of you ever work wood just for the sake of working wood? I just finished a framesaw (see below) and decided to give it a test run. I have a bunch of old 2x6 studs that used to be cobbled together into, I think, shelves in the basement of this old house we just bought. The "shelves" were built by someone who definitely believed that if 10 nails were good, 25 must be better so these boards are riddled with nails and nail holes. I grabbed an 18" hunk of this stuff and decided that I would make a 5/8" board (doesn't everyone need a 6" x 18" board that's 5/8" thick and that looks like swiss cheese? In any case, it seemed like a reasonable (nice soft wood) test of my new saw. I flattened one side of it just to get the heart pumping and then marked it out to make the cut. I definitely need some framesaw practice and it's a good thing I gave myself an extra 1/16" of stock to work with but I did get it cut. Saw works better than I work it. I could have stopped there, of course but then something caused me to grab the plane and away I went to "finish" the "job." I caught myself only when I subconciously decided that the marking gauge wasn't a good enough check of dimension and I pulled out my digital calipers. Then I looked at the stick before me...the holes every where...all the shavings on the floor. Sorta fun, though, as it's the first time I've had a chance to shove my newly restored #7 jointer around. So, ok...Paddy...just to show you that I'm not completely shy...here are a couple projects I've finished recently. This handplane shelf design was stolen from one Jonathan Peck. I just liked how his looked. Now I need another one :-) The carcass is poorly dovetailed, the fascia is mortise/tenon and the back is rabbeted into the carcass. Project demonstrated how badly I need a rabbet plane....and a shoulder plane....and a..... well, you know :-) http://www3.sympatico.ca/larrym/cabinet.jpg This framesaw was generated from stuff found on Chris' site and Paul's site. I'm wondering if I've made the end pieces too small as when I put tension on the blade the one end piece starts to bend inward a bit. Still, it seems to work fine. Made from soft maple. Tenon work is a bit sloppy I confess. http://www3.sympatico.ca/larrym/framesaw.jpg I can state for the record that no electrons were burned on either project except that I did use my drill press to drill the holes in the framesaw. No sandpaper used on the saw either for what it's worth. Scrapers did a good job and I need the heat this time of year :-) They're saying -50C with windchill tonight. Who's next? -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ------------------------------------------------------- -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 127511 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-14 18:00:39 Subject: Re: Gilpin (was: Auger bits, makers ...) Don gives us a most scholarly and fascinating summary regarding Gilpins, , , (huge snip per FAQ) >An 1876 "WM. GILPIN, SENr. & CO." advertisement gives a fairly >clear idea of the diversity of their products: For our purposes I find it particularly noteworthy that it is only the augers which can be said to fairly fall into 'woodworking' if we regard it as being 'benchwork' What does not often get mentioned here are the plethora of agricultural edge tools such as slashers and billhooks of every kind which were made and used in huge numbers. Amongst the coppicing fraternity the name 'Gilpin' on an old tool is highly regarded and taken as a mark of quality. Whilst holidaying in Alice Frampton's county at the start of the year I was fortunate to visit a restored mill which had been a first to introduce trip hammers - powered by water. The vast increase in productivity that this provided made its owner a fortune, and led to their travellers (salesmen) covering the country. In a small workshop with 5 hearths it was said that near 30 men were working, two trip hammers had been installed by the end, and IIRC one was running over a 100 strokes per minute. As a demo, the guide had a bar heated, and threw the lever to engage the hammer. Let's just say that the skill needed to take a billet and produce from it a spade using a hammer which had a fast and fixed stroke must have been amazing. If the place was closer I'd be a volunteer. Final grinding was done by a man lying on a board atop a large slow stone wheel. Atop it to get lots of weight. It was extremely uncomfortable, and hugely dangerous - the guide demonstrated, and attested to the discomfort. It's difficult now to comprehend the scale of these undertakings, largely before mass production, yet satisfying a demand for billhooks which was enormous - all agriculture done by hand, all hands needing an edge tool. Why, though the production of an auger - completely different manufacturing to smashing a bar flat and sharpening it. Holes in wood are a very basic necessity - ships of the time needed hundreds for the trenails. Woodworking needed hundreds for M&T's,. perhaps Mr Gilpin spotted a market. Don's details specify only that one site was making augers, and perhaps this division explains the separate manufacturing sites - early specialisation=3F Seems as though some local research is indicated. Thanks Don Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot in a snowy Northamptonshire ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 127512 ---- From: "Mike Duchaj" Date: 2004-01-14 13:23:29 Subject: Re: Using my old tools on a commissioned thingy How about wood movement? We used a 12/4 walnut slab as a mantle. The thing used to twist over 1" side to side with seasonal changes. Obviously, this is an extreme example, but for torsion box construction, material thickness may be important. 4/4 may be easier to contrain than 6/4, and QS is obviously preferred. Most torsion box designs that I'ver encountered are made with manufactured products or veneers. This is just speculation. > You can use a 6/4 plank for the top but you don't need to. Mine is > only 4/4. Especially if you are doing torsion box style you could build Scott, have you had any problem with movement? Mike Duchaj Elgin, IL ---- Start of Message 127513 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-01-14 10:46:05 Subject: Re: Using my old tools on a commissioned thingy Hey there John: Typically, this type of mantle is drilled and dowelled with the steel rods, then it's laid in fresh mortar and stone along with the fascia of the firebox. It's propped up at first, of course, but after a whole bunch of brick, or stone is piled on, it's set for life. It would not be easy (or even possible) to put the wooden part on to rods after they (the rods) were set in place. hey, how's tricks? Best to you; GAM --- John Lederer wrote: > The mantle was attached to the hearth by steel rods about 5/8" in > diameter. They had been semented into drilled holes in the stone, > and > the mantle appeared to have just been friction fit on by having the > rods > go into drilled holes in the plank used for the mantle. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127514 ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-01-14 12:52:04 Subject: Re: Using my old tools on a commissioned thingy Paddy: I suggest you look at Van Dykes Restorers at http://www.vandykes.com. for a number of good ideas. If you want to go that way, they have a very good selection of wood corbels that would serve to make this mantel distinguished from all others, and give support to the mantel. Of course the selection would depend on the style of their home. Yes, they can take shellac. While you are at it . . . ask for their catalog. Every woodworker needs their catalog. Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Olguin" To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 3:39 PM Subject: [oldtools] Using my old tools on a commissioned thingy > Gentle Ones, > > I've been commissioned by a close (for now) friend who'd like a nice (vexing > why he'd come to me, in that case) mantle shelf for his rather large fireplace. > It's to be a simple affair, but with a rather deep (12") shelf, and 80" wide. > My approach is to make a torsion box, approximately 3" in height, topped by the > shelf. I'll dress up the front and sides (and conceal the box) with some crown > molding (still looking for a cheap molding plane with a roman ogee profile... > hint hint, or perhaps a matching hollow/round set). > > The fireplace is big - the opening is nearly 5' wide, and the brick facade is > 96" wide, and goes from the raised hearth to the ceiling. This thing has quite > a bit of presence, shall we say, and so therefore should the mantle shelf. > Owing to the raised hearth and rather rustic brick, they don't wish a surround. > I figure I'll use 6/4 for the shelf, and 4/4 for everything else. The old > mantle is square, painted white and quite blocky and unappealing. They are > sold on the look of a substantial shelf, with moulding underneath to give it a > bit of lift. > > The torsion box is easy - I'll just use a snappy 1/2" dado plane that I > purloined offa Leach a good while back - and install some beefy supports. > Attaching crown molding (moulding, Richard) is no big deal - I'll just glue > some nailing blocks. The interesting parts to me are doing a mitered (mitred, > Jeff) return for the exposed ends of the shelf, executing a sliding dovetail > for the return in the process. A stopped, mitred return. Hmmmmm. > > The other challenge is attaching the dang thing to the brick. I can deal with > masonry anchors and all that. I'm thinking of using a French (reference to > folks on the wrong side of the channel, Richard) cleat, like I'm used to > employing when hanging cabinets. Probably use screws (driven in by a nice PWS > brace, of course) to keep the matching cleats together, so some klutz doesn't > accidently lift the thing offa the wall. Installation will be tricky, seeing > as the bottom of the box won't be attached until I've screwed the cleats > together from inside. Gonna have to cut those dadoes very accurately. > > Finish will be shellac (what else?) as it's easily repairable and can handle > the expansion/contractions of a warm fireplace, and of course for its overall > appearance. > > Oh, the reason my poor friend has decided on this is that years ago I rescued > him from certain dismemberment when I repaired a blown-out door jamb and > moulding, mere hours before he had to be out of his old apartment. My > misfortune was that the job went perfectly (he happened to select the one area > of woodDorking - trim carpentry - where I actually had some experience) and > he now thinks I walk on water. > > I welcome your thoughts, suggestions, wild speculations, past experiences in > dealing with actual paid commissioned jobs, etc. We're going wood-shopping > Friday. > > Paddy - in shamelessly sunny Pasadena, Colliefoneyah > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 127515 ---- From: "S.N.Evans" <2oltxns@c...> Date: 2004-01-14 18:18:13 Subject: Rambling Saw Maint./Restor. Questions Hey Folks, I have decided that my winter basement, hideout, project will be to sharpen and restore the host of older saws I've acquired over the past few years. I've pretty well got the rust removal routine down with razor blade, sand paper, and mineral spirits. The thing that I haven't learned or attempted is setting and filing. I have obtained the Law's video and reviewed same. I'm not real confident that I can acurately duplicate the correct filing angles by eye-balling, but I have a few junkers that I could practice on without doing grievious harm. On the Highland Harware site I noticed a filing guide, (http://tools-for- woodworking.com/product.asp?3=909)and I was wondering if these things really work that well? Will they work with a variety of saw files? As to WOOD for a galoot made HANDLE, I was wondering if walnut was a durable enough choice. I have quite a bit of walnut around but, none of the other usually mentioned varieties of handle wood. LASTLY, I would like to attempt r eplacing some busted back saw handles with the open grip type. I feel confident I can cut and shape the handle but I can foresee some degree of difficulty in cutting the kerf for accepting the blade. Any suggestions? All pointers and opinions from the assembled are gratefully received. TIA, Ned in ne/TN ---- Start of Message 127516 ---- From: "S or J" Date: 2004-01-14 14:04:11 Subject: Re: Activator for CA glue Hi Folks Larry Marshall wrote: >Oh... a few grains of baking soda in the joint prior to adding the >CA will set the CA very quickly CA is one of those products you can hate, but sometimes need for a particular job. Certainly it wicks into minor slim cracks and stabilizes wood for turning, and can equally stop a crack in a wooden plane body from worsening. It is also a very useful clamp, where PVA is the primary glue in a lamination. A few drops of medium CA around the edges will hold a small lamination firmly together until the PVA has set. The comment about baking soda being a useful accelerator is very true. Some folks in the model aircraft hobby just keep a dilute solution of baking powder in water in a spray bottle. Obviously too much spray of this water solution on wood is not a good idea. Better: dry baking powder can be rubbed very thinly onto the surface of a reluctant wooden part (eg piece of spruce) to give a much better CA bond. Shaped into a fillet, or filling a void, baking powder can play a strong but ugly structural role. Too much baking powder can be unsightly as the combo with CA sets white and can form surface bubbles. Least amount for the task at hand is best. Commercial accelerator shares the white, bubbling characteristic if too much is applied. As mentioned before, it can severely weaken the strength of the bond. I have sometimes successfully used acetone as a solvent to loosen clogs in those tiny applicator tips you add to the regular nozzle. Can sometimes take hours of soaking to get the clog to release. Some never did unclog. And there is more than a bit of concern that acetone is a more serious health hazard than most of us care to know. CA spills onto a shiny surface like a model airplane covering (or your SWMBO's kitchen floor) is best removed instantly with a bottle of commercial debonder. In the model airplane community we generally believe this product is 100 % nitromethane. Since our model aircraft alcohol fuels use up to 15 % (or more) nitromethane, we take special care to seal fuel compartments with epoxy or polyurethane to minimize fuel soaking, and CA debonding in the air. (Another argument for those who exclusively use more traditional glues in models.) Regular CA bothers me if more than a few drops are used in a session. I don't have the breathing congestion problems some get. For me, the effect is a dull headache and being kept awake till 2am as if I'd had a whole pot of coffee at bedtime. The odourless CA's at hobby shops cost more but keep me symptom free if I have to do a lot of gluing. Besides cost, their disadvantage is a slightly longer time necessary to kick off and harden. Hope this helps. Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home (a private, non-commercial site with useful info for woodworkers too) http://my.tbaytel.net/jstudio/ ---- Start of Message 127517 ---- From: hb Date: 2004-01-14 11:24:28 Subject: Re: Rambling Saw Maint./Restor. Questions --- "S.N.Evans" <2oltxns@c...> wrote: > Hey Folks, > I have decided that my winter project will be to sharpen and restore the host of > older saws I've acquired over the past few years. snip\\ and.... I'm not real confident that I > can acurately duplicate the correct filing angles by > eye-balling....SNIP I've been doing a lot of reading on the topic lately and I recall running across sharpening information on someone's site that dealt with this isssue. (I think it may have been the disstonian institute's site.) The information there recommended a simple rectangular block (looked like it had a 1 inch -2.54 cm face, and was about 4 inches - 10cm long and about 1/2 inch -12.5mm thick.) with a hole drilled into the center of the face to wedge the tang of the file into. On the face was marked the proper filing angle in relation to one of the long edges of the face of the block. The idea was to keep the long edge parallel with the saw blade and the file mounted in the block with its cutting face aligned with the angle marked on the block. Further accuracy could be had by inserting a thin dowel about 10 inches long (25.4 cm) into the top edge of the guide block and then stand a square somewhere nearby so that you could continuously sight the dowel along the straight edge of the square. The length of the dowel magnifies the deviation of the block's top edge from parallel with the saw's blade. or something like that....... HB in Reading PA - who's wondering what 5 inches of snow and weather cold enough to render road salt ineffective will do to his morning commute.... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127518 ---- From: NickNaylo@a... Date: 2004-01-14 14:28:57 Subject: Re: Rambling Saw Maint./Restor. Questions Ned in ne/TN writes I'm not real confident that I can acurately duplicate the correct filing angles by eye-balling, but I have a few junkers that I could practice on without doing grievious harm. By all means go for it, I would suggest you start on a big Rip saw if you have one. No fleam, big easy teeth, a real confidence builder. Wish I had started sharpening on a rip rather than those tiny little backsaws that drove me nuts. Was able to sharpen a big thumbhole rip while the Galoot in Training was painting the shop door, so easy it was. I noticed a filing guide, and I was wondering if these things really work that well? I suppose it might be useful, but like sharpening edge tools, the ability to maintain an angle repeatedly is not (IMHO) really that hard to do, especially if you're practicing on a tool that is not near and dear to your heart. My saw vise has a file holder carraige thingy for maintaining an specific angle but I've found it clunky to use and if the file pops out of the holder you're back to square one. replacing some busted back saw handles. I feel confident I can cut and shape the handle but I can foresee some degree of difficulty in cutting the kerf for accepting the blade. Any suggestions? Yes, do the kerf in your blank first, then if its straight and true you can expend the effort of cutting and shaping the handle, if its not (and my first and so far only backsaw handle wasn't even close) you havent' spent hours shaping a beautiful, sculpted peice of scrap you can't bear to throw out.(DAMHIKT) Michael-San Francisco, Fixing toys for GIT's school and wife's work, but there's a console table in my shop desperately trying to get made. ---- Start of Message 127519 ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-01-14 11:49:13 Subject: Re: Rambling Saw Maint./Restor. Questions On 14 Jan 2004 at 18:18, S.N.Evans wrote: > I have decided that my winter basement, hideout, project will be to > sharpen and restore the host of older saws I've acquired over the past > few years. Always a worthwhile way to spend a day or more in the shop. Eyeballing things is OK, but if you are just getting started it is worthwhile to visit Pete Taran's web site and read up on how the little alignment blocks are made. These are what I use and what I teach. Start here: http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi- bin/frameset.cgi?left=main&right=/library/library.html and click on the saw filing article. The rake alignment blocks and fleam jig are really all you need. I only use two rake jigs, one for rip saws and one for crosscut saws. Rip saws use less rake, about five degrees. Depending on the variety of saws you have you may be able to get by with only one fleam (bevel angle) jig for a long time. The angle is pretty consistent, but if you have very coarse and very fine crosscuts, then the different size files required won't work well in the same block. IMHO the commercial filing jigs don't work as well. I had a Lee Valley one once and sent it back, because it could only accommodate one size of saw file. There are reasons why you want to match the size file to the number of points on the saw. I see these filing jigs all the time and just stay away from them. It's not just that I'm cheap, it's that the shop-made jigs work better for me. Walnut is a very reasonable saw material handle. There have been a number of pictures in the past of galoot-made walnut handles, and they are very pretty. Also, it's an easy wood to shape, even for those of us who are allergic to the dust and must wear respirators when working it. I've got a couple of saw handle projects in the repair project queue, and a couple of them will be made from blocks of walnut I have set aside. The first one is curly maple though, since I already started on it before I started building lots of stuff from walnut. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Road, Santa Rosa, CA 95404 woodworking page: http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools booklist at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 127520 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-14 15:07:07 Subject: Re: Rambling Saw Maint./Restor. Questions Ned writes : > replacing some busted back saw handles. I feel confident I can cut > and shape the handle but I can foresee some degree of difficulty in > cutting the kerf for accepting the blade. > Any suggestions? There's a good chance the blade has too much set so I'd knock it out, then use the blade to cut the slot in the handle. Then you can re-set the teeth properly. I place a piece of plywood flat beside the handle of a thickness to place the blade midway in the handle then saw while keeping the blade flat on the plywood. It's pretty easy. Paul Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 127521 ---- From: Roger Van Maren Date: 2004-01-14 12:11:36 Subject: Re: Rambling Saw Maint./Restor. Questions --- "S.N.Evans" <2oltxns@c...> wrote: > As to WOOD for a galoot made HANDLE, I was wondering >if walnut was a durable enough choice. I can foresee some > degree of difficulty in cutting the kerf for > accepting the blade. Any suggestions? All pointers > and opinions from the assembled are gratefully > received. > > TIA, > Ned in ne/TN I don't know if you've already seen my poor attempt at describing my making of a few saw handles: http://www.rogervm.homestead.com/Saw_handle.html Roger In Livermore, CA ---- Start of Message 127522 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-14 15:13:51 Subject: Re: Using my old tools on a commissioned thingy Paddy wrote : >> guilty of the same thing. I mean, who cares if you found a tool >> like this and paid that for it. This from the guy who invented this list so he'd have a place to gloat about all the great tools he was buying... Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 127523 ---- From: Louis Michaud Date: 2004-01-14 15:18:14 Subject: Saw sharpener's puncture pattern OK, so I had been warned about the Galoot fore-arm baldness pattern resulting from testing chisel and plane iron sharpeness... But nobody ever told me anything about the Saw Sharpener's Fore-head Puncture Pattern! I would have appreciated a little warning... How does one get the SSFHPP do you ask? It's very easy: when almost finished sharpening a saw, say a shiny Disston #12, drop the file on the floor. You are not concentrating on what you are doing, probably thinking of how sweet that sexy handle will feel in your hand while sawing some nice figured birch... Don't think, don't look, just bend over to pick up the file. Then freeze right there! You' ve just sunk a nice row of sharp saw teeth on your fore-head. Not too deep as to hit bone and to have a continuous line, just deep enough to have a nice puncture pattern to evaluate your saw sharpening skills. It's important not to have any latteral movements or jerks, that would spoil the pattern. Luckily, it was cold so I had an excuse the wear anything low on the fore-head. I can talk about it now because the pattern has all but disappeared and SWMBO has quit being supportive: "What happened to Louis you ask? Well, he tried a new hair transplant technique. As you can see it did not work..." Also, before you analyse the pattern in front of a mirror, make sure the camera is hidden. Otherwise you'll have to fight SWMBO for it and she fights dirty! Let's be careful out there... Louis Michaud Rimouski, Quebec ---- Start of Message 127524 ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 2004-01-14 12:40:02 Subject: Re: Using my old tools on a commissioned thingy --- Mike Duchaj wrote: > How about wood movement? Yes, how about it. It's highly unlikely I'll find a 12" wide by 6/4 cherry plank out here in LA. It'll have to be a glued-up (hopefully just two pieces) panel. As for the torsion box, 4/4 is the plan. I must not have made that clear. The reason for a thick plank is well... the scale of the thing. Now I suppose I could fake it with built-up mouldings and all, but there's nothing like a hefty plank with a simple nosing treatment to say, "look at me, i'm a bad boy." > Most torsion box designs that I'ver encountered are made > with manufactured products or veneers. > > This is just speculation. Which is precisely what I requested! :) I could build it with plywood (no religious objects to decent plywood on my part), but I've got no t*bl*s*w, and since I'll be fitting this assembly to a surface (masonry), that's likely neither plumb, level square or flat, I prefer the forgiving nature of shaping, planing, tuning solid stock. I also have been bandying about the wild-assed notion of fitting the top plank to the torsion box with sliding dovetails. I figure four or so ought to do it. This would allow the plank to expand and contract, and still provide plenty of support. Or just use buttons or whatever. Paddy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127525 ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 2004-01-14 21:43:54 Subject: Re: Using my old tools on a commissioned thingy Hi Paddy I've been looking at your pic of the shelf, and hoping to provide another tuppenceworth or so. First off - How much weight does it need to carry? Someone standing on it while decorating? In which Case I'de make up a close torsion box, skins top and bottom, blocks at the attachment points, and spacers throughout - maybe 1/4 inch summat half lap jointed in a diagonal pattern a few inches apart. Epoxy, or a waterproof casein or summat. NOthing's going to bend that sucker. Then attachment. I've had much success with 5/8 steel rod for something similar. Drilled the wall about 6 inches deep, and had 2 inch square blocks 9 inches long drilled lengthwise as shelf supports. the steel rod ran to within a couple of inches of the end of the block. My son (and I) walked along that shelf. . . they were at about 24 inch intervals IIRC. So your torsion box would have drilled solid blocks at, say, 24 " intervals, you drill the wall to match, epoxy some steel in, and slide the box onto the forest of steel. your inaccuracies in drilling the wall ( ! ) mean it's a tight fit. But for safety, you can drill upwards into the steel work, and pop a screw through from below. Your topmost shelf becomes mainly cosmetic, so I would use nothing over the 1 1/2 oak you mentioned, with the moulding added below. Its beginning to look over engineered here, so methinks you could conceivably use the shelf as the top surface of your box, and make shelf and box as a single unit. Alternatively - still with the steel idea, then manufacture a series of dentils, pleasantly shaped, though hefty in thickness - a steel centre will provide strength enough for ought, whilst looking deceptively unsubstantial when viewed from the front. This time you may want to move to 2 inch for the shelf, with or without the moulding. a 2 inch shelf in oak will let you park the truck on there without deflecting. Enough, they said. Working to commission is just so .. nerve wracking isn't it Best Richard Wilson ---- Start of Message 127526 ---- From: Dan Indrigo Date: 2004-01-14 16:54:45 Subject: Re: Using my old tools on a commissioned thingy Hey Paddy, Are you sure about this cleat idea? I've used it for cabinets and such but I've found it to be a big pain when the wall isn't flat. And how many walls are flat over a span of 96" ;^) Bumps in the wall make it quite a chore to shim the cleat so it's straight. If they aren't straight then it's lotsa fun trying to hang things off of it. If it were me I would just make the torsion box so it's open on the back. Then you take a 2 x 4 and screw it to the wall on edge with a bunch of tapcons. It doesn't matter if the 2x4 doesn't contact the wall at every point the mantle will be trimmed to fit tight but the 2x4 only has to be sorta close. Then assuming you've built the torsion box with a 1.5" interior it will just slide over the 2x4 and all it would take to keep it in place is a few finishing nails driven in from below. Dan Patrick Olguin wrote: > Gentle Ones, > > I've been commissioned by a close (for now) friend who'd like a nice > (vexing why he'd come to me, in that case) mantle shelf for his rather > large fireplace. It's to be a simple affair, but with a rather deep > (12") shelf, and 80" wide. My approach is to make a torsion box, > approximately 3" in height, topped by the shelf. I'll dress up the > front and sides (and conceal the box) with some crown molding (still > looking for a cheap molding plane with a roman ogee profile... hint > hint, or perhaps a matching hollow/round set). > > The fireplace is big - the opening is nearly 5' wide, and the brick > facade is 96" wide, and goes from the raised hearth to the ceiling. > This thing has quite a bit of presence, shall we say, and so therefore > should the mantle shelf. Owing to the raised hearth and rather rustic > brick, they don't wish a surround. I figure I'll use 6/4 for the > shelf, and 4/4 for everything else. The old mantle is square, painted > white and quite blocky and unappealing. They are sold on the look of a > substantial shelf, with moulding underneath to give it a bit of lift. > > The torsion box is easy - I'll just use a snappy 1/2" dado plane that > I purloined offa Leach a good while back - and install some beefy > supports. Attaching crown molding (moulding, Richard) is no big deal - > I'll just glue some nailing blocks. The interesting parts to me are > doing a mitered (mitred, Jeff) return for the exposed ends of the > shelf, executing a sliding dovetail for the return in the process. A > stopped, mitred return. Hmmmmm. > > The other challenge is attaching the dang thing to the brick. I can > deal with masonry anchors and all that. I'm thinking of using a French > (reference to folks on the wrong side of the channel, Richard) cleat, > like I'm used to employing when hanging cabinets. Probably use screws > (driven in by a nice PWS brace, of course) to keep the matching cleats > together, so some klutz doesn't accidently lift the thing offa the > wall. Installation will be tricky, seeing as the bottom of the box > won't be attached until I've screwed the cleats together from inside. > Gonna have to cut those dadoes very accurately. > > Finish will be shellac (what else?) as it's easily repairable and can > handle the expansion/contractions of a warm fireplace, and of course > for its overall appearance. > > Oh, the reason my poor friend has decided on this is that years ago I > rescued him from certain dismemberment when I repaired a blown-out > door jamb and moulding, mere hours before he had to be out of his old > apartment. My misfortune was that the job went perfectly (he happened > to select the one area of woodDorking - trim carpentry - where I > actually had some experience) and he now thinks I walk on water. > > I welcome your thoughts, suggestions, wild speculations, past > experiences in dealing with actual paid commissioned jobs, etc. We're > going wood-shopping Friday. > > Paddy - in shamelessly sunny Pasadena, Colliefoneyah > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To > unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 127527 ---- From: pedger66@j... Date: 2004-01-14 17:18:07 Subject: No. 50 cutter que. Galoots, Does anyone know if the cutters for a No. 55 (way too complicated for me molding etc. plane, Jeff) will fit into a No. 50 (less complicated dado and plow plane, Jeff). I'm trying to get a 50 and cutters. Thanks, Phil E. ---- Start of Message 127528 ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-01-14 16:37:16 Subject: Re: Saw sharpener's puncture pattern Heck my eyes are poor. I never was confident I had counted the tpi right. Much easier to count the scabs on one's forehead. > > ---- Start of Message 127529 ---- From: Thomas Conroy Date: 2004-01-14 16:13:52 Subject: Wooden Screws, and Thanks GGs: I cut my first screws with my 4 t.p.i. G+ old/new screwbox and tap yesterday, and I want to thank the galoots who gave indispensible help on it. All the discussion helped get me over the hump, but a few contributions were particularly useful, and I found out some other things too. The screwbox cutter was badly dull and it chopped up the crests of my first practice screw, so Roger Birkhead's advice about re-setting the cutter proved important. He said "The trick I have used is to have a bit of stock that I have threaded already and I know works well with the tap. I insert this into the die and then adjust the cutter to sit in the previously cut grooves." There is enough slop in my screwbox that this didn't give a precise setting to go back to, at least with the choppy and deeply-cut practice screw that I started from, but it did give me a pretty-good approximation to start adjusting from. In fact, I happened to get my cutter in correctly at the first try, but it was knowing that I had a reference that gave me the confidence to take the cutter out. Since I feel that wooden screws should have plenty of slop, it turned out that I didn't want a highly precise setting requiring lots and lots of fiddling and re-adjusting; the loose fit I want has lots of leeway for slightly looser or tighter. Knowing this also makes re-setting the cutter less intimidating. Having crossed the hump, I can now join Steve Lindell in saying "You also get to use a sharp cutter once you dare to take it out." No, that's not a smirk on my face. No way that's a smirk. No way. The steel of the cutter is pretty soft, and it looked like the very heavy previous sharpening had been done with files; so I tried needle files instead of going to slipstones right away, and this proved to be the right strategy with this particular cutter: much faster than stones, especially since I don't have a good set of slipstones. I'm worried about the likely short life of the edge and of the cutter itself, but I can deal with that as I come to it. A short test cut with the resharpened cutter gave a crisp, clean crest in walnut. I'm sure, though, that my Taiwanese cutters won't sharpen with a file; their edges have held up so well that they must be seriously hard steel. Lawrence H Smith reminded me off-list about the proper technique for cutting metal screws with die and tap: cut a quarter turn, back off, and then cut another quarter turn. I thought at first he was suggesting this for cutting the screws with the screwbox, and said that I had found this the wrong way to go: backing off on the screwbox chips off the fragile new threads, so it is best to crank the screwbox down in one steady movement, without stopping or even pausing. After a bit, though, he got it through my thick head that he was talking about tapping the holes, not cutting the screws, and this was an important reminder. With my Taiwanese cruciform-section taps I have been taking the tap through at one steady movement because that's what I do with a screw box, then going through again another half-dozen times, "wallering it out" much as Roger described. However, my new/old 4 t.p.i. tap is a single-hole style and an unpleasantly snug fit in a 1" auger hole. Maybe a 17/16" bit would have been better, but I haven't been able to find one, and 18/16" would have been too loose. In any case I simply couldn't put the tap straight through a scrap of 1 3/4" cherry without backing out; but the reminder of metal-tapping technique kept me from despairing, and in the end I found myself dipping the tap in a BLO/mineral spirits mixture as lubricant, putting it in the hole, cutting another half or quarter turn, backing completely out, and re-lubricating. So Lawrence's reminder of metal-tapping technique (which I had learned in high school shop back when there were lsuch things), and his emphasis on it for tapping wood, proved timely. Notice, by the way, my careful use of the term "lubricant" above. In a posting a while ago I said that I thought BLO acted as a softener, not as a lubricant, in cutting wooden screws; well, I still think this for cutting male screws, but it was clearly a lubricant, and a necessary one, for tapping. The single-hole tap does, as I had read, cut much cleaner threads than a cruciform tap (or, for that matter, than a wooden-shafted tooth-blade tap, which I have also used); but it also seems to require more force to put it through. Or maybe thats just because I don't have that 17/16" bit. I had worried about my lack of a big tap wrench. The top of the my tap is not a square section, as on a metal tap or on the Beall Tool Company taps, but is a rectangle about 9/16" x 15/16" with the short ends rounded (in fact, it is just the round shaft of the tap with two flats ground off). Even the big tap wrench sold by Beall would be at its outer limit to hold this, and I didn't find anything near big enough at my local old-fashioned used-tools store. I thought of trying an ordinary wrench, but felt that my medium-small crescent wrench wouldn't give a good enough hold on this, quite apart from the question of unbalanced force. Then I realized that the longer jaws of an old-fashioned monkey wrench, which I had always considered an inefficient precursor to the cresent wrench, were perfect for holding the long rectangle of my tap. So a tried one, and it worked so well that I'm not sure I will buy an enormous tap wrench (I need, it of course, don't get me wrong about that, its not like there is a tool I don't need, I'm not a heretic or anything; I just may not buy it). Bugbear rightly took me to task for balking when John Sawchak wrote: "If you look at engineers charts for how much force can be held by metal threads you can get a better understanding of what you're trying to accomplish..." Of course the forces working on metal threads and wooden threads are the same, and of course knowing these forces will be helpful. My concern was that the resistance of wood to these forces will be different from the resistance of metal to these forces, since wood breaks in different manner than metal; and I jumped too fast from this to a neo-luddite pose (WOOD-GOOD-METAL-BAD-WOOD-GOOD-METAL-BAD-WOOD-GOOD-METAL-BAD...). Hope I wasn't impolite in the process, especially since I was wrong in assuming without qualification that coarse screws are stronger. Now I have to stop patting myself on the back about that practice screw and hole and try the screwbox on something real. There's always a catch... Tom Conroy Berkeley __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127530 ---- From: Michael Legersky Date: 2004-01-14 16:18:17 Subject: Test Message New member test message. ===== Member Thailand,Laos,Cambodia Brotherhood Member VFW Post #10249,Udorn,Thailand "Freedom is never free" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127531 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-01-14 19:23:38 Subject: Using my old tools on a commissioned thingy On Wednesday, January 14, 2004, at 01:46 PM, gary may wrote: > >> The mantle was attached to the hearth by steel rods about 5/8" in >> diameter. They had been semented into drilled holes in the stone, >> and >> the mantle appeared to have just been friction fit on by having the >> rods >> go into drilled holes in the plank used for the mantle. > > GG Funny how coincidences happen. MLW just redecorated the ENTIRE house, this time in a contemporary sort of manner. She asked if I would like to display some tools in certain area (meep meep) and together we came up with a set of shelves. They are 8/4 cherry, 6-3/4" wide, 32" long. I made a jig from a 2X3, then used a dr*ll pr*ss (the only tailed apprentice to have contributed to the project) to drill guide holes in it. Screwed the 2X3 to the wall and drilled 7/16 holes with a brace and auger (Mephisto in a 2101) 4" straight into the stud. Did a second row at the adjacent stud. Then screwed 1/2" all-thread into the holes. A few quick taps with the hammer got them all level and lined up. I then drilled 1/2" holes in the back of each piece of cherry 5" deep (brand spanking new "Russell Jennings" bit, same 2101 - I know, I should have used a different brace and left the bits in each for the next time). Five of the six slid right on with a little bunt from the heal of my hand. The sixth needed considerable bunting. I left them about 3/8" from the wall so they look like they are sort of floating, used BLO/Varnish/MinSpirits on them, and Bob was my Uncle. Two 1/2" all thread are strong enough to hold about 30 pounds before distorting much. Larger rods and more of them would be needed for a bigger piece such as this. I think that with the proper jig (that could be used for drilling holes in a mortar line and then turned around to drill holes in the back of the torsion box) this could work. Ed Minch Whose GOLD-PLATED saw looks very good on a cherry shelf against a white wall. ---- Start of Message 127532 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-01-15 00:52:36 Subject: Re: Rambling Saw Maint./Restor. Questions Yeah Roger thats REAL Poor can't wait till you post the good stuff. Steve I would tell you about the blood running down my cheek from my tongue poking thru it but we cut off that thread. ---- Start of Message 127533 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-01-15 01:17:15 Subject: Re: WTB/WTT Auger bit sizes needed Steve greasing the slope is one thing but coating it with teflon and then waxing it? Steve in Indy ---- Start of Message 127534 ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-01-14 19:20:47 Subject: Re: No. 50 cutter que. Phil E. asks: > Does anyone know if the cutters for a No. 55 (way too complicated for me > molding etc. plane, Jeff) will fit into a No. 50 (less complicated dado > and plow plane, Jeff). I'm trying to get a 50 and cutters. This has come up before, and I believe the answer depends on how old the #50 is. If the #50 is pre-adjuster you'll probably be OK, but if it has the blade adjustment you are out of luck. The #50 adjuster requires grooves cut into the back of the iron, so a #45/#55 cutter will not seat properly. -- Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL - OTLM, ENB, FOYBIPO "Science works even if you don't believe in it..." - Penn Jillette ---- Start of Message 127535 ---- From: Michael Legersky Date: 2004-01-14 17:27:48 Subject: Spear&Jackson Handsaw Hi, New member here.This looks like a good group;think I'll stay a while! Question for you fellas- could anyone help me date this saw: Spear&Jackson 24" skew-back,7 p.p.i. Deeply engraved logo with "Mermaid".Other engravings are: "Sorbitic Temper", type of steel and temper info,and hammer setting info engraved on blade,5 brass screws. I can't find anything on Spear&Jackson saws. Anybody have any info? Thanks, Michael Legersky ===== Member Thailand,Laos,Cambodia Brotherhood Member VFW Post #10249,Udorn,Thailand "Freedom is never free" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127536 ---- From: "The Davis Family" Date: 2004-01-14 21:08:21 Subject: Any Galloots headed for Williamsburg's Working Wood in the 18thC conference? Colonial Williamsburg's first conference on making tall case clocks by hand, starts this Sunday. For those that can't make it, Fine Woodworking showed some 'almost live' action on their website last year and I think The Society of American Period Furnituremaker's had coverage also. You might want to check it out. Links to the conference and the Society info can be found at www.sapfm.org. If you come, look me up and say hey! John Davis PS. Another epoxy glue joint failed on a rosewood tote, despite acetone precleaning and fresh planed glue surfaces. What am I doing wrong? ---- Start of Message 127537 ---- From: "Bret Rochotte" Date: 2004-01-14 21:13:54 Subject: Kenn Kutter Grindstone Hello; I saw a photograph of a large foot powered grindstone for sale at a junk shop. The owner of the shop is helping the owner sell it. It has a cast iron plate(guard) that clearly says Keen Kutter. I am curious as to what a reasonable price for this would be. I have not look at it so I know condition is crucial. Lets assume for sake of discussion that it is in good condition or easily restorable condition. What do you think? Thank you, Bret who found a nice Keen Kutter hewing hatchet last week-end Bret and Wendy Rochotte New Bremen, Ohio rochotte@b... ---- Start of Message 127538 ---- From: "John Ruth" Date: 2004-01-14 21:20:21 Subject: Yankee 75 Chuck Jaw Questions and WTB Patient Porchlings: Q1: Is there any more common Yankee product whose chuck jaws will interchange with those in a Yankee 75??? Just bought one marked only "North Brothers" which is fully functional except some previous owner removed the jaws from the chuck. Looking in the archive, I see that this tool was entitled a "push brace", so I take it that it was designed to accept standard bitstock tools like auger bits, gimlet bits, bitstock-headed twist drills, etc. The 75's chuck looks a little small for the common size of bitstock heads. I don't recall seeing any brace chucks with similar outside dimensions. Q2: Did this tool come with bits, and, if so, what kind and sizes. Also, if anyone has a junker Yankee 75 with good jaws, please consider this a WTB. John Ruth Metuchen, NJ Who now thinks that there's no such thing as a complete set of all types of auger bits. I got a handful of stocked "blind-footed" helical bits in this box lot. _________________________________________________________________ Rethink your business approach for the new year with the helpful tips here. http://special.msn.com/bcentral/prep04.armx ---- Start of Message 127539 ---- From: T&J Holloway Date: 2004-01-14 22:02:38 Subject: Re: Using my old tools on a commissioned thingy On Wednesday, January 14, 2004, at 01:54 PM, Dan Indrigo wrote: > Hey Paddy, > Are you sure about this cleat idea? I've used it for cabinets and > such but I've found it to be a big pain when the wall isn't flat. And > how many walls are flat over a span of 96" ;^) Bumps in the wall make > it quite a chore to shim the cleat so it's straight. If they aren't > straight then it's lotsa fun trying to hang things off of it. Yeah, what he said! The house we moved into in Vacaville, CA had a fireplace with the interior masonry made of used bricks (recovered from demolition job, with obligatory traces of white paint and mortar, Jeff, verrah popular in faux-old houses in the USofA). The top of the bricks is c. 6 1/2" wide, (ie, from wall to front edge) and looked too small for correct proportions, besides which we wanted a wooden mantle. I snagged an oak plank about 6/4 thick at an auction, and used that as the main slab for a mantle board, adding another half inch around the bottom edge, cut from the same plank and jointed for grain matching. The resulting "A&C style" mantle board is about 2" thick to the eye, but it has a 1/2"-thick lip all around that overhangs the top brick by about 1 1/2", making the board about 8" wide (wall to edge). As for attaching, I'm counting on plain old gravity--no fasteners involved. with 6" resting on the top brick and only one and a half inch overhang, it's unlikely that anything placed on the mantle will tip it off. But as Dan suggests, the wall was *not* straight for the 70 or so inches along the rear surface. Even sheetrock tape and mud will create significant irregularities in the wall. The drill here was to put the blank, unfinished main board up on the top brick where it would eventually rest, and SCRIBE A LINE along the back edge, matching the irregularities in the wall surface. It was enough to just place a wooden pencil vertically against the wall, and run it along to leave a pencil mark on the board that reproduced the ins and outs of the wall surface. This is where hand tools came in: chisels, spokeshaves, and scrapers were used to carve out the back edge of the board along the scribed line. When it was all done, I just placed the mantle board on the top brick and shoved it against the wall, where it now fit without gaps and cracks. And there it sits, three years later. It takes a sharp eye and close inspection to see that it is not integral to the wall, but instead just fits snugly against the wall. Another couple of data points on the mantle board chart. Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 127540 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-15 09:25:36 Subject: Re: Rambling Saw Maint./Restor. Questions S.N.Evans wrote: >Hey Folks, > . . > I'm not real confident that I can acurately duplicate the correct > filing angles by eye-balling, but I have a few junkers that I could > practice on without doing grievious harm. On the Highland Harware site > I noticed a filing guide, (http://tools-for- > woodworking.com/product.asp?3=909)and I was wondering if these things > really work that well? > I have tried the Eclipse model (obtained very cheaply) and find that it's tedious to relocate it for each tooth (which you have to do), and that it inhibits a "natural" filing action. So here's my approach: http://www.geocities.com/plybench/shop_projects.html#file_pointer I should point out that Brent Beach has a different opinion; http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/sawjig/sawjig.html BugBear ---- Start of Message 127541 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-15 09:43:32 Subject: Re: No. 50 cutter que. Ralph Brendler wrote: > Phil E. asks: > >> Does anyone know if the cutters for a No. 55 (way too complicated for me >> molding etc. plane, Jeff) will fit into a No. 50 (less complicated dado >> and plow plane, Jeff). I'm trying to get a 50 and cutters. > > > This has come up before, and I believe the answer depends on how old > the #50 is. Just to add (from the UK perspective) that the mighty Record #050 (light combination plane, Jeff) has Records version of Preston patented depth adjuster (AKA the normal one you see on shoulder planes), and thus has blades to suit. In other the Record #050 needs its own blades, and no other. Just to make joy complete the Record #044 and Record #405 use different adjusters, and the Record #043 has no adjuster. Thus all the blades are different, and non interchangeable. Question for the UK collectors/experts. Apart from Record (and Marples, which appearsto have had a deal with Record on designs making their own copies of the #043 and #044) did any British manufacturer make a metal grooving or combination plane? I mean, Chapman, Guys, Rapier, WS were all "out there" manufacturing away... BugBear ---- Start of Message 127542 ---- From: pedger66@j... Date: 2004-01-15 05:52:14 Subject: Re: activator for CA glue Hi Ho Galoots, Jim T. writes of gluing himself to wood. In the ER where I used to work we occasionally got kids in (and more rarely a kid-like adult) who had gotten CA glue on their hands and then rubbed an eye, gluing it shut. This seems like a hideous situation, (one ain't gonna put acetone on/in someone's eye!) but actually, all we had to do was tape a damp patch over the eye, send them home, and by the next morning the eye would open with no ill effects. I'm not being deliberately gruesome like some have said before, I just thought this might save some of our hamfisted and accident prone galoots, like myself, some anguish and maybe a trip to the ER. Phil E. ---- Start of Message 127543 ---- From: pedger66@j... Date: 2004-01-15 06:38:54 Subject: Re: rambling saw maint./ restor. questions Galoots, esp, Ken, I've been having trouble teaching myself how to sharpen saws. I keep getting "cows and calves". Can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong? (Besides trying to sharpen my own saws). Phil E. ---- Start of Message 127544 ---- From: pedger66@j... Date: 2004-01-15 06:52:38 Subject: Re: using my old tools on a commissioned thingy Galoots, Mr. Richard Wilson, I love you like a brother, (wink) but I have to gainsay one thing you mentioned about using a torsion box in mantel construction to Mr. Paddy. You said to consider using the top solid wood plank as the top of the torsion box. I don't think that would be a good idea. The torsion box design uses a top and bottom of laminated sheet material with a grid inside, making it very solid and immovable. The solid wood plank top will change width a lot with humidity differences. If that is used as the torsion box top, I think it will tear itself apart. If the plank is set atop (using slotted holes or whatever) a complete torsion box, it can move relative to the torsion box, which won't move. It's easy to get into trouble when mixing solid wood with laminated material sheet goods (plywood) in a project. You gotta account for movement vs. non. Phil E. ---- Start of Message 127545 ---- From: pedger66@j... Date: 2004-01-15 07:09:28 Subject: Re: Buying items "as is" Galoots, What Randy said!! I'm in the middle of the following nightmare, and it didn't even say "as is": "Dear G_____ "I received the 605 [Bedrock jack plane, Jeff] plane today. I'm sorry to tell you that I am going to need a complete refund from you including the postage and insurance. I was willing to pay the price I bid based on what you described and what I could see in the photos. I realized some parts were improper,as you said, but it looked like they could be restored and I bid on that basis. But this plane has been cobbled up and ruined from pieces of at least five different planes. The adjustment screw and bolt are from an old wood and steel transitional plane and were forced into place. It turns backward from what it is supposed to for a 605 of 1910 patent date. The chip breaker is also from a transitional plane. These don't fit a 605 and somebody drilled another hole and filed it out square in an attempt to make it work. The lever and blade holddown bolt is the wrong type and it was forced into the hole so that even if I get the proper part it won't fit in there now. In the body of the plane someone filled in with metal the 2 holes that hold the frog down and threaded them. These holes aren't supposed to have threads. They take steel pins which are missing. The 2 horizontal holes that extend into these holes from the back of the frog boss in the body have been filled in with metal so the proper tightening screws can't be put in at all. The front knob bolt is an improper thread pitch and was forced in or it was retapped and it messed up the threads so that the proper one won't fit now. The rear tote (handle) holdown bolts are improper and have been forced in place and I can't get them out without risk of breaking them off. The frog adjust screw (that moves it toward and away from the mouth) is improper and won't adjust it. "The plane has been ruined by someone beyond all possibility of fixing it. Stanley screw threads aren't standard and there are no taps and dies that exist now to repair the messed up holes and bolts. This plane is useless to me. It has extensive damage that wasn't in the description or pictures." Galoots, wish me luck. I'm gonna need it. I think the letter may be a bit strident, but I was aghast and offended by what someone had done to that poor plane. (I don't necessarily think it was the seller. Maybe he didn't know.) Phil E. ---- Start of Message 127546 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-15 12:11:09 Subject: Re: using my old tools on a commissioned thingy - wrong answers.. Phil E (of massive leg vise fame) corrects me. . . >You said to consider using the top solid wood >plank as the top of the torsion box. I don't think that would be a good >idea. and I can do nought but bow to the porch and agree. Keen sighted amongst you may have noticed that the missive came from my 'other' address, and was writ far too late last night, after looking up the diagram Paddy posted, whilst fending off SWMBette's questions with one hand, and doing some coding with another, and well I just lost the plot. Ayee - I know much better, in fact, to make amends, I'll scan and send an excellent article about torsion boxes, their making, and affixing, to anyone who emails to me at yorkshireman @ yorkshireman.info. I'll send Paddy one gratis of course. . . . What do you 'muricans say 'move right along, nothing to see here anymore, return to your discussions' and to add more content, and talking of commissions - I have in hand a candlestick for a church. Made from a chunk of yew from their churchyard. It's turned, in three sections, base, stem, and candleholder, but suffers from typical yew splitting. Sadly, there was no quality timber of suitable dimension amongst the pile. so the stem has a couple of (old) splits. My problem is that a couple of sections of the bead which disguises the joint are long gone. Am I best to splice in some material, and hope I can disguise what will be a very obvious joint=3F Or, given that the continuing shake running up the stem is discoloured (I said it was old) do I leave the visual affront and sell it under the heading of 'patina' There are several such about the piece. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 127547 ---- From: Jerry Davis Date: 2004-01-15 08:38:36 Subject: Re: More thoughts on Auger bits Roger wrote: > First was the "evolution" of the auger: 1st the single > wing twisted around the outside of a rod (and the rod then removed) to > form an auger with one lip and one spur (I forget who invented this I have some of these without the spur marked SNELL. I've seen them referred to as Snell Pattern auger bits. I also have an old catalog which labels them as 'car' bits. Presumably used in train and automobile manufacture. The lead screw on mine has a broad base (sorta fat) and cuts agressively in softwoods, even pressure treated stuff. If you keep cranking, they keep boring but leave a ragged hole. They're handy for farm work. > When you look at most modern long > electricians or lineman's augers they are mostly of the oldest pattern. > I had always assumed they were the most recent design. Is the main > reason for this design to reappear because without a solid center they > have more room to clear chips? That sounds reasonable. They cut a lot faster than modern spade bits and who cares about a ragged hole when it is hidden in the wall. Jerry Griffin, GA ---- Start of Message 127548 ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 2004-01-15 09:05:29 Subject: Still More on Glue Galoots, John wrote, "PS. Another epoxy glue joint failed on a rosewood tote, despite acetone precleaning and fresh planed glue surfaces. What am I doing wrong?" Having done many repairs of Stanley totes, it sounds like John did all the preparation needed. I do spend a lot of time applying acetone to the rosewood glue surfaces and wiping it off all dirt and tropical oils are driven out. So far - fingers crossed - my glue has held. Perhaps it is the glue itself? I use a "fast drying, high solids, PVA (polyvinyl acetate) resin emulsion glue" otherwise known as "202GF Gap Filling Glue" from Garrett Wade. And, I take care to make sure the glue coat is thin, but present in all the nooks and crannies of a rosewood break. This means that I do NOT plane or smooth the joint, but rather I leave it uneven to prevent a straight across break line or fault. I hope this helps. But John! WoW! The link you provided to a Williamsburg event lead me to your work < http://www.sapfm.org/sapfmmay2003/einterview/davis/splash.asp >. I had no idea all that time I used to run into you at PATINA, country auctions and yard sales in the suburbs of D.C. All that junk you bought from me was actually used for something beautiful. Congratulations! And, has anyone putting on the Tall Clocks event at Williamsburg thought of including Bill Robertson. His clocks are detailed and accurate in every manner, but only about 5 inches "tall". There is no comparable miniaturist anywhere in the USA. *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * *********************************************** ---- Start of Message 127549 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-01-15 09:40:21 Subject: Re: Spear&Jackson Handsaw Hi Michael, Welcome to the group! There's sort of a good news/bad news aspect to your Spear & Jackson question. Spear & Jackson made tools (primarily saws and files) in Sheffield from ca. 1819 to ca. 1985 and their name is still being used by a company that bought them out. Have no info on the other markings, so the dating of your saw is pretty wide open. Best Wishes, Solomons Bob ---- Start of Message 127550 ---- From: Ted Shuck Date: 2004-01-15 09:02:03 Subject: RE: Still More on Glue Karl quoted John: > John wrote, "PS. Another epoxy glue joint failed on a rosewood tote, > despite acetone precleaning and fresh planed glue surfaces. What am > I doing wrong?" I have had this happen as well. What I did was to drill a bunch (an imprecise number between 10 and 20, Paddy) of small (1/16" ???) holes on both glue surfaces before gluing it again. When the expoxy is applied it is forced into these holes, giving it a better adhesion surface. It would probably be even better to angle the holes in random directions, but I haven't tried that yet. It has not failed me yet... Ted ---- Start of Message 127551 ---- From: Ted Shuck Date: 2004-01-15 09:08:09 Subject: RE: No. 50 cutter que. I have one of the newer No. 50's with the adjuster, but only the one blade that it came with. I like the way it works, but don't like the fact that I can only use it for cutting 5/8" grooves. Ralph is right, the #45 cutters do not work in a #50 if it has the adjuster. Does anyone know a source for these grooved cutters? I'd really like to pick up a few of the smaller ones, in the 1/8" to 3/8" size range. Thanks, Ted ---- Start of Message 127552 ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-01-15 07:23:46 Subject: Re: Yankee 75 Chuck Jaw Questions and WTB --- John Ruth wrote: > Q1: Is there any more common Yankee product whose > chuck jaws will > interchange with those in a Yankee 75??? > > Just bought one marked only "North Brothers" which > is fully functional > except some previous owner removed the jaws from the > chuck. This tool was advertised as being suitable to drive auger bits up to 3/8", if I remember correctly. > Q2: Did this tool come with bits, and, if so, what > kind and sizes. I don't think they came with bits, as they used "ordinary" auger bits. If I remember to, I'll look at mine tonight and see what the jaws look like, and how they compare to other tools. Offhand, I am sure they don't interchange with the 2100/2101 Yankee bit braces, but they might be similar to the jaws used in some of the Yankee breast drills. Will have to compare them to see. ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127553 ---- From: Joshua Clark Date: 2004-01-15 10:31:38 Subject: Re: Yankee 75 Chuck Jaw Questions and WTB Correct, the Yankee #75 Push Brace was advertised as being capable of drilling "3/16in. in metal; drives 3/8in. auger bit in hard woods and larger bits in soft woods." ... "Chuck with steel jaws, drop-forged and hardened. Capacity, 1/2 in. square shank." You can see the original ad here: http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/ads/yankee14_mid.jpg -Josh in COLD Connecticut- On Thu, 15 Jan 2004, Jim Erdman wrote: > This tool was advertised as being suitable to drive > auger bits up to 3/8", if I remember correctly. > I don't think they came with bits, as they used > "ordinary" auger bits. ---- Start of Message 127554 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-15 10:54:17 Subject: Re: No. 50 cutter que. Bugbear writes : >Just to add (from the UK perspective) that the mighty Record #050 >(light combination plane, Jeff) has Records version of Preston >patented depth adjuster (AKA the normal one you see on shoulder >planes), and thus has blades to suit. > >In other the Record #050 needs its own blades, and no other. I have a Record 050C (the designer plough) and it takes Stanley 45 blades with the notch just fine. I had the plough, then happened across a 45 with its box of blades. I ended up selling the 45 but keeping the blades for the 050C. (I also replaced the weird plastic tote with a Stanley aluminum tote that looks like it was made for it and is very comfortable.) Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 127555 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-01-15 08:41:32 Subject: Re: rambling saw maint./ restor. questions I keep getting "cows and calves". This one is easy. You always file with one hand, right? Your dominant hand, of course. So, that means one direction will always be the most comfortable stroke and you'll naturally take off more material in this position without even trying. The trick for me is intentionally taking off more steel in the "off" position. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 127556 ---- From: "CheekyGeek" Date: 2004-01-15 09:25:46 Subject: Elementary tongue-cutting question... Porchlings, For the old-oak-office-desk-to-bedside-table conversion project, I need to make a slide-out shelf. (You know how over the top of each drawer stack, but under the desktop, there would be a "breadboard" type of a shelf that would pull out?) I have one of the originals, but the other is gone and so I need to make a replacement. It is basically a glued up panel with narrow end pieces attached via tongue and groove joints to hide the panel's endgrain. I don't have a true tongue and groove plane (or planes, in the case of wooden ones). I know the SGFH will take this opportunity to encourage me to get one or a dozen, but in this case I'd like to try my 78 to cut rabbets on both sides of the board to make the tongue. Since i'm cutting crossgrain, I know I'll have to use the nicker. My 78 does have a fence, but I'm wondering if one should rely totally on the fence or if I should (perhaps in addition) clamp a board to serve as a fence for the 78 body to the workpiece. I'm assuming that one simply marks the depth of each rabbet with a cutting gauge and planes the rabbet down to the line? This also got me to thinking about tongue and groove planes for end grain work. Are they suitable for that purpose, or are them meant to work with long grain only. The blade pitch would make me think they might be less suitable for endgrain work. Finally, should one have all of the board faces planed smooth before or after assembling the end pieces? If one is a bit off on the joint and the end pieces are a little high (or low) I'm guessing that one corrects for this during the dry fit stage and not after glue-up. (In fact, on the original piece the tongue and groove does not appear to be glued at all, but is secured with small brads through the joint.) Darren Addy Kearney, Nebraska ---- Start of Message 127557 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-15 12:40:31 Subject: Re: Elementary tongue-cutting question... Hi Darren, If I'm picturing this correctly - For the tongues, try cutting them with a backsaw like a tenon (no shoulders). You can also cut the groove with a saw, chisel out the waste, and clean up with a dado or router plane. Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 127558 ---- From: kjworz@c... Date: 2004-01-15 18:03:44 Subject: Re: Elementary tongue-cutting question... > Porchlings, I don't have a true tongue and groove plane (or planes, in > the case of wooden ones). I know the SGFH will take this opportunity > to encourage me to get one or a dozen, but in this case I'd like to > try my 78 to cut rabbets on both sides of the board to make the > tongue. Since i'm cutting crossgrain, I know I'll have to use the > nicker. My 78 does have a fence, but I'm wondering if one should rely > totally on the fence or if I should (perhaps in addition) clamp a > board to serve as a fence for the 78 body What I would do, is clamp or tack a batten on the work piece. You won't need a fence on the plane at all this way. SGFH would suggest a skew type rabbet plane like the venerable #289, but your #78 should do the trick. SHARP blade, please. Once you get going, remove the batten and the tongue you've already started cutting acts as a 'fence' or batten. When you start the cut, draw backwards with the plane to run the knickers over their spot a couple times to get that initial bit. THEN plane forward. Watch out for creep on the 'vertical' part of the cut. You get a slope instead of a vertical wall. This can be trimmed up, if you DO get it, with a side rabbet, a shoulder plane, or even the #78. As always, mark out the tongue well with a marking gage and marking knife. A cutting gage on the cross grain can help the knickers out, especially if the knickers are a bit dull. I have an easier time sharpening a cutting gage blade than a plane knicker. > This also got me to thinking about tongue and groove planes for end > grain work. Are they suitable for that purpose, or are them meant to > work with long grain only. The blade pitch would make me think they > might be less suitable for endgrain work. Not so much. SGFH would suggest a skew for the groove on the order of a #46 combo plane. But ARE you cutting an end grain groove? Rarely would that be necessary or practical. Why make an endgrain breadboard end when you aleardy have end grain at the end of the board. But then you may be grooving the board and tonguing the long end cap piece. Harder to do, but the end result might be kinda neat. > > Finally, should one have all of the board faces planed smooth before > or after assembling the end pieces? If one is a bit off on the joint > and the end pieces are a little high (or low) I'm guessing that one > corrects for this during the dry fit stage and not after glue-up. (In > fact, on the original piece the tongue and groove does not appear to > be glued at all, but is secured with small brads through the joint.) Yes, plane close, dry fit, plane closer. You can smooth after glue up, but it's harder. You have to do some acrobatics, changing plane direction when you transtion for the different grain directions. Do NOT glue the entire length of the tongue. Just in the middle. You need to think of grain movement. A dowel going through tight holes in the long grain piece, and oversize holes in the end grain is the traditional way to hold the piece on near the ends. Brads would work, but... less classy. -- -Chris Schwartz, Ex-Brewer Stealth #97 Silver Spring, MD ---- Start of Message 127559 ---- From: Erwin L Schaffer Date: 2004-01-15 11:32:26 Subject: Re: Spear&Jackson Handsaw Spear (John) & Jackson (Samuel) were operating in Sheffield from .1830-1985. Very prolific Brit saw maker! --ErvSawwwwwwwwwwwwwz On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:27:48 -0800 (PST) Michael Legersky writes: > Hi, New member here.This looks like a good group;think > I'll stay a while! Question for you fellas- could > anyone help me date this saw: Spear&Jackson 24" > skew-back,7 p.p.i. Deeply engraved logo with > "Mermaid".Other engravings are: "Sorbitic Temper", > type of steel and temper info,and hammer setting info > engraved on blade,5 brass screws. I can't find > anything on Spear&Jackson saws. Anybody have any info? > Thanks, Michael Legersky > > ===== > Member Thailand,Laos,Cambodia Brotherhood > Member VFW Post #10249,Udorn,Thailand > "Freedom is never free" > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > ---- Start of Message 127560 ---- From: "CheekyGeek" Date: 2004-01-15 11:50:19 Subject: re: Spear&Jackson Handsaw The Handsaw Catalog Collection by Astragal Press includes a 1915 Spear & Jackson price list. The "mermaid looking at herself in a mirror" trademark is listed under "New Trademarks" on that publication's cover page. (But I don't know for how many years it was offered). It is hard to say exactly which model you may have. Anyway to get a picture? Several of them have skew backs and 5 nuts. In addition to several saws listed under the "Mermaid" brand there is also a "Double Mermaid" brand which is distinguished(?) by its "Vanadium Steel Alloy" blade. Rather than having the single mermaid to the left of the main etch, the mermaid is a part of the central etch with script writing to either side (on the "Double Mermaid" brand). Mermaid brand would normally be"Silver Steel". If it is the single "Mermaid" brand, then I would guess that it is either a: Ship Carpenters' Saw: This is described as 6" wide at the butt and 1-1/2" at the point (for the 26" saw) with the other sizes being proportionate or A No. 87 or 88 Skew Back Hand Saw. Described as the same quality as their No. 82 ( a straight back version), a high-grade saw for cabinet makers, carpenters, etc. for find and accurate work. The 88 had english beech handles, while the 87 was available with American Applewood handle. Either might come with (or without) a brass heel plate along the bottom of the handle. These saws are much wider at the point than the Ship Carpenters' Saw. I have no information on how long these models might have been made, or if there were additional later models that might match your particular saw. Hope that is of some help. Darren Addy Kearney, Nebraska ---- Start of Message 127561 ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-01-15 11:05:26 Subject: Re: rambling saw maint./ restor. questions On 15 Jan 2004 at 6:38, pedger66@j... wrote: > I've been having trouble teaching myself how to sharpen saws. I keep > getting "cows and calves". Can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong? > (Besides trying to sharpen my own saws). The first thing needed here is a little analysis. Does Phil really have mad cows and confused calfs, what is he observing, and what can cause it? Phil probably figured this out, but an obvious point may be of help to others. The first time you sharpen a crosscut saw, your reaction is probably something like "Oh no! All the teeth I sharpened on this side are much smaller than the others!" Well, no, they are not, but it never hurts to scare yourself a bit if it makes you think. Every other tooth will have a bevel on leading and trailing edges that are facing you. The in-between teeth are just flat because the bevels are on the other side. The teeth with the bevels facing you will look much smaller to you since they reflect light differently, but they are probably OK. It's mostly an optical illusion - what your mind thinks it's seeing as opposed to what's really there. Now, the next question is what kind of pattern are you seeing. If every other tooth really is larger then its neighbor, then it is likely to be something like what Scott alluded to - that you are not filing with the exact same stroke when going from one side as you used on the other. This is largely a matter of practice and learning how much to take off (see below for further discussion). If the pattern is more random than that, it's probably still a matter of how much metal is being removed, but it's not so much about what direction you are filing from as that you may be applying more pressure on some teeth than on others, or you are not holding the file consistently at the same relationship to the tooth as you move from one end of the saw to the other. That out of the way, lets move on to saw jointing. Breasted saws aside, the tips of the teeth are your "reference face" in saw sharpening, so it's a good idea to make sure you start with them all lined up. I am in the habit of taking a light pass over the tips with the jointing fixture (just a piece of 2 x 4 with a file in it) every time I sharpen. If I am working on a rescue project from a garage sale, I am likely to be more serious about it the first time I sharpen the saw. It's good practice with an unknown or suspect saw to check the linearity of the teeth with a straight edge and joint as appropriate. Extra caution wastes no more than a minute, which is a lot less time than filing a saw and finding you have to start over because you have a bad reference. How much you sharpen every tooth has much to do with the condition of the saw when you begin. If I have done a good job on a saw and am simply touching it up, I find I can get by with something like "give every tooth two strokes" because (1) I know the teeth were pretty even to begin with, and (2) I'm pretty consistent with the amount of metal I take off with each stroke. But if you are starting from a saw that is clearly in bad shape, all bets are off. There's no way you can get away with this approach, because every tooth will need a different amount of metal removed. Remember that the tip is your reference. You want to remove metal until the bevel just reaches the tip of the tooth. If you do this and can keep a consistent angle (with jigs, or guide blocks and practice), then the bottom of the gullets will tend to take care of themselves. After all, you are using the same file on every tooth and moving it at the same angle. The tips line up because you jointed first, so if you file just until the bevel reaches the tip of the tooth, there's no reason why the gullets should not line up as well. Pressure is usually firm - you don't want the saw file skipping over the surface as it will do with no pressure at all, and you don't want to bear down on it. Normally I am pushing straight down, but to clean up a badly sized or shaped tooth, I will sometimes apply slight pressure on the file toward ("into") the tooth. Not much, because you really should be depending on the file geometry to make the teeth come out even, but if you are starting from a basket case, you do what needs to be done. Just take it easy. I tend to just sharpen the saws without any visual aids other than good light, but some contrast helps in determining where you are in the metal removal process. It's more obvious on a dirty, rusty saw since the bright metal looks very different from the "pre-sharpened" state. This can be artificially achieved by darkening the teeth. I have not used it, but sight black (sold at gun stores) is supposed to be a good method for this. As my eyes continue to deteriorate over time, I suspect I'll get there one of these days. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Road, Santa Rosa, CA 95404 woodworking page: http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools booklist at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 127562 ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-01-15 16:18:35 Subject: Re: Elementary tongue-cutting question... CheekyGeek wrote: >Porchlings, [Darren asks about making a breadboard tongue...] Hey Darren What I find works for me is to just work as if the tongue is a large dado. - Leave a little extra wood (1/2in or so) on the end of the piece. - Saw down the "cheeks" (leaving the extra 1/2in at full-thickness). - Chisel out the bulk of the waste. - Use a router to smooth-up the tongue. - Saw off the extra full-thickness "tail". (If you don't want to waste that extra 1/2in, then make the width of your dado a 1/2in shorter than your tongue. Then cut the dado, and then plane down that last little thick bit.) Hope this makes sense. Nichael ---- Start of Message 127563 ---- From: "Andy Wilkins" Date: 2004-01-16 08:17:10 Subject: RE: rambling saw maint./ restor. questions Hi, I just want to add to ken's excellent reply - if you're starting to learn to sharpen, start on a typical rip or cross-cut (6,7,8,9 pt). It's hard to see what you're doing on a dovetail saw. A nice, short, pictorial introduction to saw jointing can be found at http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&page=32631 by clicking on "Instr" down the bottom of the page. a ---- Start of Message 127564 ---- From: NickNaylo@a... Date: 2004-01-15 17:20:08 Subject: Re: rambling saw maint./ restor. questions Ken wrote: I tend to just sharpen the saws without any visual aids other than good light, but some contrast helps in determining where you are in the metal removal process. It's more obvious on a dirty, rusty saw since the bright metal looks very different from the "pre-sharpened" state. This can be artificially achieved by darkening the teeth. I have not used it, but sight black (sold at gun stores) is supposed to be a good method for this. I've had good results with a fat magic marker to darken the teeth and help me keep my place when sharpening, this does destroy the marker though, so a dedicated one is called for. Lately I've been using the soot from a candle flame. set the candle on the bench, light it and run the teeth thru the flame, right near the wick. Sometimes it takes a pass or two to get all the teeth covered, then keeping place is easy. The teeth don't even really get hot to the touch so I doubt there's any problems with too much heat. Michael-San Francisco ---- Start of Message 127565 ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 2004-01-15 14:52:26 Subject: Re: rambling saw maint./ restor. questions Ken Greengerb wrote: [clip] Ken, Thanks for the treatise on establishing a basic set-up and then winging it. Unlike the vagaries of torsion box construction and mantle installation, I seem to (like yourself) be able to sharpen saws without too much problem. It really isn't rocket science. DAMHIKT. I think the other thing I strive for is the absolute minimum set I can get away with, and not cause the saw to bind. Don't ask me (screeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeech!!!!) know that. I usually tap all the set out with a small hammer, and then set 'em just a cubic hair at a time. I prefer this to having to stone teeth I've overly set. I admit, Pete's site takes a reading or three (not to mention having-at a few saws) for it to fully sink in. http://www.vintagesaws.com Paddy - in sunny Pasadena, where we have lots of fireplaces for reasons I know not. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127566 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-15 15:52:23 Subject: Bio Greetings to all from Tucson, Arizona! My name is Blake Ashley I've been lurking for a while here, absorbing, learning, being sucked in by the rust addiction. And now it seems to be time to speak up and introduce myself. So here goes. My Father was a woodworker. He always had a shop when I was a kid and the smell of sawdust is deeply imbedded in my memory. He tended toward power tools and rough home carpentry. I didn't really "apprentice" with him much. But a seed was sown, apparently. As I grew up, I only dabbled in wood, although I always dreamed of being able to make nice joints and beautiful furniture with hand tools. Then one day, about six years ago, I went out into the garage and built a big work bench and started to work. I started reading - Frid, FWW, Wearing - and started buying tools. At first I bought modern hand tools, not knowing that most were c@#p. But I learned slowly. I made a few things, bought some tools, made a few more things, bought a bunch more tools, and so on. I love the look and feel of wood. I love the look and feel of old tools. I love the quiet in my shop. I love it when a hand-cut joint fits tight the first try (or at least I assume I will). I love the ingenuity embodied in traditional woodworking techniques and tools. I want a Barnes hand-cranked circular rip saw REAL REAL bad. I guess all of that put together makes me a Galoot. So here I is. Blake ---- Start of Message 127567 ---- From: "Bret Rochotte" Date: 2004-01-15 19:19:51 Subject: Ken Roberts Publishing Company Hello; I am interested in finding books written by Ken Roberts. I have found a few on some used book sellers' web sites, (mostly clock related) but no info on his publishing co. Does the publishing Co. still exist? I am sliding down the woodie slope and would like to see "Wooden Planes in 19th-Century America" vol I and II. The books by Roberts were listed in the FWW article "How to Make a Molding Plane" by Norman Vandal. My beech wood is getting dryer..... Bret Bret and Wendy Rochotte New Bremen, Ohio rochotte@b... ---- Start of Message 127568 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-15 19:26:36 Subject: Re: rambling saw maint./ restor. questions Another thing is that the file itself will cut more on one side than on the other due to the angle of attack of its teeth. So you have to press more to one side than the other just so the file cuts evenly on both sides at the same time. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 127569 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-15 19:37:04 Subject: Re: Elementary tongue-cutting question... Nichael adds : >- Use a router to smooth-up the tongue. >(If you don't want to waste that extra 1/2in, then make the width >of your dado a 1/2in shorter than your tongue. Then cut the >dado, and then plane down that last little thick bit.) Or if you have another piece of the same board lying around you can use that to balance the other side of the router. I just cut 16 half-lap and 16 mortice and tenon joints in some 4x4 cedar and used this method extensively. Using my type 5 Stanley No.71 router (old woman's tooth, Jeff) went so well it felt like I was cheating. Would have been even easier if the 4x4's had been square. Paul (Using my Stanley No.358 miter box for the first time felt like I was cheating as well...) Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 127570 ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-01-15 18:56:00 Subject: Blake's Bio Welcome to the slippery slope of toolishness. -Rex ---- Start of Message 127571 ---- From: "Tod Herrli" Date: 2004-01-15 20:04:12 Subject: RE: Ken Roberts Publishing Company Bret, I've got both volumes and have found them to be helpful. The books are out of print to my knowledge and with Robert's death I think the company is shut down too. You are welcome to stop in and see my copies if you like...make a couple of planes too! Glad you beech is drying. Tod Herrli > -----Original Message----- > From: Bret Rochotte [mailto:rochotte@b...] > Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 7:20 PM > To: oldtools > Subject: [oldtools] Ken Roberts Publishing Company > > > Hello; > > I am interested in finding books written by Ken Roberts. I have found a > few on some used book sellers' web sites, (mostly clock related) but no > info on his publishing co. Does the publishing Co. still exist? I am > sliding down the woodie slope and would like to see "Wooden Planes in > 19th-Century America" vol I and II. The books by Roberts were listed in > the FWW article "How to Make a Molding Plane" by Norman Vandal. My > beech wood is getting dryer..... > > > Bret > > Bret and Wendy Rochotte > New Bremen, Ohio > rochotte@b... > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > ---- Start of Message 127572 ---- From: Kevin S Date: 2004-01-15 18:18:20 Subject: record 043 screws Hi gang, I finally got a Record 043 (neat small plough plane Jeff; oh wait, its a Record, I mean, everyone-but-Jeff). Not a particularly great price for a user, but I've wanted one for a long time, and finally scratched the itch. The adjustment screws on the fence and depth stop are not knurled thumbscrews, they are more like wing nuts. Did all 043's come from the factory with thumbscrews? thanks, Kevin, in Southampton, MA __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127573 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-15 22:22:52 Subject: Brace question Hello Last month I picked up a couple of neat braces by Holt. One is the Dec. 14 1880 pat with the with the clamshell chuck, and the other Feb 18 1892 pat with very fine ratchet teeth. The info on Sandy's brace page indicated that they are "B" not common, and "A" not often found, respectively according to Ron Pearson, so i was very excited to find them together. http://www.sydnassloot.com/Brace/Holt.htm http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=310 I would like to come up with some ideas to display my modest collection consisting of about 15 so far, but growing. I'm thinking wall mounted display case with hinged glass front panel and glass sides. What I'm not sure of, is how to mount them in a way that I can take them out of the display and handle them easily. Pics will also be very helpful. Tales of brace finds also welcomed. Thanks Jonathan ---- Start of Message 127574 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-01-15 22:20:01 Subject: Re: record 043 screws Kevin, I don't know about all the 043s, but mine has knurled knobs on all three screws, not wing nuts. Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) Kevin S > > The adjustment screws on the fence and depth stop are > not knurled thumbscrews, they are more like wing nuts. > Did all 043's come from the factory with thumbscrews? ---- Start of Message 127575 ---- From: "Andrew Fairbank" Date: 2004-01-16 05:43:28 Subject: RE: Still More on Glue I can help provide an answer on this one. Epoxy is one of the few glues that needs a MINIMUM glue line thickness to bond successfully - approx 1/2mm or 20 thou is needed. The holes provide the thicker glue line and held John's tote together. Unfortunately this ends up as a big black line running through a job, so on tote repairs, the epoxy glue line is squished (an incredibly technical term, Jeff)too thinly and the tote repair breaks soon after. DAMHIKT. Cheers, Andrew ---- Start of Message 127576 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-01-16 07:49:58 Subject: RE: rambling saw maint./ restor. questions : -----Original Message----- : From: Ken Greenberg [mailto:ken@c...] : Sent: 15 January 2004 19:05 : To: oldtools : Subject: Re:[oldtools] rambling saw maint./ restor. questions : : Remember that the tip is your reference. You want to remove metal : until the bevel just reaches the tip of the tooth. Just to supplement Ken's very thorough notes, it is on the second pass of the file that you remove the remains of the 'shiner'. There's a couple of diagrams on my web site that might explain this. Please see 'Sharpening Notes' - 'Re-sharpening a Tenon Saw'. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 127577 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-01-16 07:49:59 Subject: RE: Rambling Saw Maint./Restor. Questions : -----Original Message----- : From: bugbear [mailto:bugbear@p...] : Sent: 15 January 2004 09:26 : To: oldtools : Cc: oldtools : Subject: Re: [oldtools] Rambling Saw Maint./Restor. Questions : I have tried the Eclipse model (obtained very cheaply) and find that it's tedious to relocate it for each tooth (which you have to do), and that it inhibits a "natural" filing action. Me too! (Unashamedly). I also find it difficult to see where you are working and by filing some teeth the wrong way, jiggered up one saw this way. Had to re-cut it. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 127578 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-16 09:25:38 Subject: Re: record 043 screws Kevin S wrote: >Hi gang, > >The adjustment screws on the fence and depth stop are >not knurled thumbscrews, they are more like wing nuts. > Did all 043's come from the factory with thumbscrews? > > Don't think so. http://www.altes-handwerkzeug.de/museum/hobel/nut/2740.html IIRC Richard Wilson has "an opinion" on this matter. BugBear ---- Start of Message 127579 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-16 09:30:13 Subject: Re: Elementary tongue-cutting question... Paul Pedersen wrote: >Or if you have another piece of the same board lying around you can use >that to balance the other side of the router. > > If you're using most any of the Stanley derived metal type of router they have a handy contersunk hole, just right for using a wood screw to attach a spacer block for this purpose. And (of course) the archive knows all... http://nika.frontier.iarc.- uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_id=105168&submit_thread- =1#message BugBear ---- Start of Message 127580 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-16 09:32:20 Subject: Re: rambling saw maint./ restor. questions Ken Greenberg wrote: <> On the other hand, in defiance of the FAQ, I'll just say "great post, Ken" BugBear ---- Start of Message 127581 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-16 09:51:28 Subject: Re: record 043 screws Kevin asks about 43's . . . . . (that cute one handed plough that grooves for drawer bottoms better than the 040) >The adjustment screws on the fence and depth stop are >not knurled thumbscrews, they are more like wing nuts. > Did all 043's come from the factory with thumbscrews=3F No, over time there were a variety of fasteners. Pics of all or several of them are somewhere at the slow and cumbersome and soon to be amended www.yorkshireman.info if you follow links to tools and 43's - beware that pics haven't been optimised so they're chunky. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot proving the 'cobbler and his shoes' story. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 127582 ---- From: "John Pesut" Date: 2004-01-16 06:29:54 Subject: Re: Brace question Scattered all over your bench top with bits of various sizes installed and covered with saw dust works for me. > I would like to come up with some ideas to display my modest collection > consisting of about 15 so far, but growing. I'm thinking wall mounted > display case with hinged glass front panel and glass sides. What I'm not ---- Start of Message 127583 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-16 10:20:35 Subject: Re: Bio Blake announces himself. . . (Big warm friendly Hello from far beyond the dawn horizon, Blake ) and says. . . > At first I bought >modern hand tools, not knowing that most were c@#p. A sentiment we often embrace here, but I think in the interests of new galoots everywhere we should be more discriminating. Quite apart from the quality makers we all know, the excremental brands which flow westwards from old colonies and ancient Imperial realms get lots of criticism - rightly. But I also seem to recall that in times past, the craftsman was accustomed to tuning his planes from the likes of Stanley, MF and such. I posted here about tuning an Anant No4 ( Indian made bench plane) for a colleague. He'd bought it to plane down a sticking door, and somehow it didn't work and was therefore rubbish. I did some cursory work - sole on the B*lt S*nd*r, and sharpened it. From being totally useless, it became something I'd have no worries about taking to a job. Likewise, a fellow coppicer had a fine, old Record No3 (smaller bench plane) in fine condition which he couldn't make work. Again - simple tuning and set up made it into such a nice plane that I was inspired to re-work my own No3 to the same cosmetic standard. Both these planes were considered c@@p by their owners because they didn't work as advertised. The point is that whether mass produced tools need to be regarded as c@@p or not is largely in the hands of the owner. In pursuing old tools we largely chase items which have, at some time been already tuned. Bad old tools don't exist because they've been thrown out already - like bad old furniture joints aren't found, because they already failed. Doesn't mean all old furniture was made to the standard we see in what's left. We scoff at the edge holding characteristics of some new chisels, yet nod sagely about the differences between old blades, forgetting that the worst have long gone back into the furnace. We also, nowadays, and on this list, know enough to be able to salvage a bad new tool - bad chisel=3F - re harden and temper it. Good practice, and = if it's actually *made* from a poor quality steel, well, you either regrind into something else, or enjoy the learning experience, or need to sharpen it more often. Don't give up on 'bad' new tools just because they're new and garish. Look on them as a kit of parts. With some fettling, most will provide the basis for a toolkit with which to accomplish some hand woodworking, and provide skill and knowledge for use with other tools. - The 'best' tool is the one that a) does the job b) is in your toolkit c) costs nil Richard Wilson Preaching in a welcome message - in that allowed in the charter=3F ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 127584 ---- From: "John Pesut" Date: 2004-01-16 06:30:47 Subject: Re: record 043 screws Ditto. > I don't know about all the 043s, but mine has knurled knobs on all three > screws, not wing nuts. ---- Start of Message 127585 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-16 10:42:11 Subject: Re: Wooden Screws, and Thanks Thomas gave us an excellent summary of the discussion, suggestions, and finally the experiences of thread cutting. Excellent post! >I cut my first screws with my 4 t.p.i. G+ old/new screwbox and tap > yesterday, and I want to thank the galoots who gave indispensable (huge snip - original in the 'keepers' file) - which leaves me asking... - I have a number of taps, but only 1 box. How difficult is it, and any suggestions, on the notion of using the taps to reverse engineer the boxes=3F I foresee making a box, cutting a thread through it with the tap, then installing a cutter, which I suppose goes in some sort of seat, then using my new screw box to make lots more threads. Am I deluding myself=3F - should I just go and buy the appropriate boxes as = needed=3F Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot with more projects than time.. . . ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 127586 ---- From: pedger66@j... Date: 2004-01-16 06:41:41 Subject: Re: thanks for replies Galoots, Thanks for the many replies to my recent (too many) posts. Re: No. 50 cutters for one with the thumb blade depth adjuster. Could one either remove the adjuster or file off (oh, the horror) the teeth and be able to use plain plane (sorry) cutters? Phil E. ---- Start of Message 127587 ---- From: "Bernard, Eric" Date: 2004-01-16 08:31:01 Subject: Rodriguez at Woodcraft - recap I hit the "wood surfacing with hand tools" seminar at Woodcraft last week-end. Time well spent for myself - I mean, I can read all the books. I can great answers to my stupid questions here on the porch. I can even go down to the basement and make a mess of some perfectly innocent wood on my own - but to be able to actually SEE a guy who's been doing this sort of thing for 30 years is kind of neat to watch. In 6 hours time Rodriguez went through the whole process of surfacing a board - from tool selection, tool sharpening and prep, scrubbing, flattening, smoothing, and scraping - not just talking it but actually doing it. I wont go into every little detail - but suffice it to say what started out as a rough cut, gnarly, highly figured, crotch piece of black walnut ( about 3 inches thick and 4 sqft of surface area ) yielded an absolutely spectacular piece with amazing grain patterns, beautiful contrasts between sap and hart woods and a flame which went right up the middle that even a hot-rodder would die for. The order went something like this: No. 40, No. 62, No. 4, Low angle block, and a card scraper ( all LN mind you ). The thing that made me go "huh?" was the use of the No. 62. and the low angle block. Now I have always read ( truth be told - I've never actually surface anything more complex than straight grained poplar ) that for all those hardwoods, especially if it has complex grain patterns that a smoother with it's iron bedded at a higher angle ( York, middle, half, whatever ) is the way to go. I know this was just an intermediate step - but the results Rodriguez got with the 62 were pretty impressive. Then the last plane that hit the board just prior to scraping was a low angle block?!? I know this is a horse which has been beaten, killed, resuscitated, and beaten some more.....but.....what say the group on their experience with low angled planes on the gnarly stuff? Eric Bernard Newton, MA ---- Start of Message 127588 ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-01-16 06:26:23 Subject: Hand cut dovetail question (Is a "technique" question allowed here? If not, let me know offline, and I'll refrain in the future.) While perusing yet another "how to" site on hand cut dovetails, I come across the following page: http://www.wood-workers.com/users/charlieb/DovetailDrawer12.html My question is this; why are the steps marked "no!" in between steps 9 and 10 and between steps 14 and 15 verboten? I am sure I saw a Marc Adams seminar on dovetails, and he did exactly this. Thanks, Michael __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127589 ---- From: Ted Shuck Date: 2004-01-16 08:31:48 Subject: RE: thanks for replies - was Stanley No. 50 Phil asks if he could disable the adjuster on his newer model Stanley #50. I have considered doing this with mine, and will probably debate about it for years, or until I get some cutters with the grooves in them. I like the adjuster though and would really like to keep it *for use*, not just to avoid mangling the tool. I got one reply off-list where a Galoot had filed the grooves in some cutters. This sounds laborious and difficult to do accurately. I examined my one cutter closely last night and found that the grooves are about 5/32" wide and the metal ridges about 1/16" between them. The grooves appear to have been cut with a circular cutter with a radius of around 1", since the bottom of the groove is obviously rounded. A small cut-off wheel could probably be used to reproduce the originals. Has anyone been down this road before? Please don't contribute to me mangling another tool. Thanks, Ted ---- Start of Message 127590 ---- From: "Jim Esten" Date: 2004-01-16 08:37:39 Subject: RE: Hand cut dovetail question Having done those verboten things, I'll take a SWAG at it... First, do not pry. Well, this one ought to be obvious, but that didn't stop me. You will very often splinter your face edge as the chisel comes up out of the valley you are prying from. Ugly. The other thing noted in the graphic is trying to come in from the end (and fairly deep in the graphic although this can go awry even on a shallow attempt). What sometimes happens is the chisel follows the grain and unless you have already gone deep enough at the shoulder, it is pretty easy to chip out a quite large chunk. Do I continue to do those things....of course I do, although I've botched enough with the prying to tone that down. I do frequently clean out waste coming in from the end grain, but am careful to do it only with very shallow passes no deeper that I've already plunged at the shoulder. And as I understand it, technique questions are quite fair game!!! Cheers, Jim E #2 in charming and moderately historic Cedarburg, WI USA -----Original Message----- From: Michael Campbell [mailto:michael_s_campbell@y...] Subject: [oldtools] Hand cut dovetail question (Is a "technique" question allowed here? If not, let me know offline, and I'll refrain in the future.) While perusing yet another "how to" site on hand cut dovetails, I come across the following page: http://www.wood-workers.com/users/charlieb/DovetailDrawer12.html My question is this; why are the steps marked "no!" in between steps 9 and 10 and between steps 14 and 15 verboten? I am sure I saw a Marc Adams seminar on dovetails, and he did exactly this. ---- Start of Message 127591 ---- From: kjworz@c... Date: 2004-01-16 14:54:50 Subject: Re: Hand cut dovetail question Darn TOOTIN a handtool technique question is allowed here! That is one of the great disservices of off-topic posting and subsequent clamp-downs by the mom's. It cast a pall of silence over the list. Witness all of Paddy's PRIVATE responses to an on-topic request for advice. So please, galoots, ask your on topic questions, and PLEASE galoots, respond to on- topic questions On-List! -- -Chris Schwartz, Ex-Brewer Stealth #97 Silver Spring, MD > (Is a "technique" question allowed here? If not, let me know offline, > and I'll refrain in the future.) > > ---- Start of Message 127592 ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-01-16 09:04:47 Subject: Triple Patent date Stanley Plane worship >Ted said; >I just drilled a bunch of random holes, thinking that this >would have to give a better bond than a smooth non-porous >surface. > Thanks Ted, I have one very nice RW tote that was on a 3 pat. date Stanley Jack. I have replaced the original tote with one from the "box" (the "box" is a place where extra stuff falls during my MANIC repair sessions.) As I am not certain of the origin of said tote, I feel compelled to repair the original but want to do the best that is possible. Your advice is the first that makes me feel I might have success. Has anyone else noticed that the machining on triple pat. date Stanley bench planes is superior to other era Stanley planes or is it just me? I have a triple #4.5 (heavy smoother Jeff) that day in and day out preforms above and beyond my same size LN and my other Stanley smoothers. It is in fine+ condition and I fear I might wear it out ;-). ---- Start of Message 127593 ---- From: "Pete Bergstrom" Date: 2004-01-16 09:09:11 Subject: Re: Hand cut dovetail question "Michael Campbell" wrote: > (Is a "technique" question allowed here? If not, let me know > offline, and I'll refrain in the future.) > > While perusing yet another "how to" site on hand cut dovetails, I > come across the following page: > http://www.wood-workers.com/users/charlieb/DovetailDrawer12.html > > My question is this; why are the steps marked "no!" in between steps > 9 and 10 and between steps 14 and 15 verboten? I am sure I saw a > Marc Adams seminar on dovetails, and he did exactly this. It's really easy to pop a larger-than-expected chunk of wood off. Don't ask me how I know this. :) Pete ---- Start of Message 127594 ---- From: kjworz@c... Date: 2004-01-16 15:09:58 Subject: Re: Triple Patent date Stanley Plane worship The type 11 Stanley model is recognized by many as superior. The three patent dates is an indicator of it's 'type'. It's what I prefer to own and use. That era was after the last of the major improvements, and before the decline of handtools. You can even find some type 11s with low knobs (mostly) and some with high knobs, so that dovetails with that particular preference choice, as you can get either. The blades are sometimes laminated (all the time?) and sometimes they are Sweetheart blades (replacements... still cool). I believe the Type 13 is the proper Sweetheart era plane. If I recall it has only 2 patent dates. When shopping in my early galoot days, after a little bit of research, I realized I couldn't do much wrong if I bought a plane is good condition with ANY patent date on the bed. Those models are all from the golden age. (I'm going by memory here. I decided which type I wanted years ago and lined up all the reasons in my head then. I may have 'misplaced' a reason or two.) Jay Sutherlands page has a lot of Type info: http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/stanley_bench_plane/dating/ -- -Chris Schwartz, Ex-Brewer Stealth #97 Silver Spring, MD > > Has anyone else noticed that the machining on triple pat. date > Stanley bench planes is superior to other era Stanley planes or is it > just me? I have a triple #4.5 (heavy smoother Jeff) that day in and > day out preforms above and beyond my same size LN and my other > Stanley smoothers. It is in fine+ condition and I fear I might wear > it out ;-). > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 127595 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-01-16 10:10:32 Subject: Re: Ken Roberts Publishing Company Hi Bret & All, Astragal Press bought out the rights to Ken Roberts books, but I don't think they've reprinted any of them. I've said this before and made some people mad, so I'll try to say it a bit differently this time. I can't stand to read anything written by Ken Roberts - drives me totally nuts. I GREATLY RESPECT and ADMIRE the research he's done and the effort he's put into advancing our knowledge of old tools and their makers. I just can not understand how he could largely negate the value of all that work by putting it out with so many obvious typos in it that none of the rest of it that's not so obviously wrong can be believed - at least by me. I know that some friends of Ken's pleaded with him to have his material typed up by somebody who knew how to type and/or to let them do a bit of proof reading before he went to press - but he refused. I know that my attitude has some personal quirk aspects, but just I can't make myself respect Ken's stuff as much as I should be able to. Best Wishes, Solomons Bob ---- Start of Message 127596 ---- From: "Vern Tator" Date: 2004-01-16 07:27:43 Subject: Re: Hand cut dovetail question Ahoy the porch, It appears to me, that they are showing dangerous moves that will jeopardize the finished piece. Making the cuts that are X ed out could split the piece that is to remain. Prying and long horizontal cuts are risky.The whole point of wasting out the center is to leave the edges crisp and clean. Ketch, Yawl, Schooner or Later Vern www.schoonerwoodworks.com "A wise man speaks because he has something to say, a fool speaks because he has to say something." Socrates ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Campbell" To: "oldtools" Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 6:26 AM Subject: [oldtools] Hand cut dovetail question > (Is a "technique" question allowed here? If not, let me know > offline, and I'll refrain in the future.) > > While perusing yet another "how to" site on hand cut dovetails, I > come across the following page: > http://www.wood-workers.com/users/charlieb/DovetailDrawer12.html > > My question is this; why are the steps marked "no!" in between steps > 9 and 10 and between steps 14 and 15 verboten? I am sure I saw a > Marc Adams seminar on dovetails, and he did exactly this. > > Thanks, > > Michael > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 127597 ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-01-16 09:36:48 Subject: Re: Ken Roberts Publishing Company I'll have to echo what Bob said-- Ken Roberts books are fabulous research, but have a LOT of small errors and typos. I will still heartily recommend the books, though-- there is just *so* much information in there! Also, I believe MJD got the last of Ken Roberts' stock, and may have a few left. I got a copy of AWP2 from him just a few months ago. If you want a copy, you might want to ping Martin and see if he has any left. -- Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL - OTLM, ENB, FOYBIPO "Science works even if you don't believe in it..." - Penn Jillette ---- Start of Message 127598 ---- From: Roger Date: 2004-01-16 09:39:00 Subject: Re: Bio Blake Ashley wrote: > >I want a Barnes hand-cranked circular rip saw REAL REAL bad. I guess >all of that put together makes me a Galoot. So here I is. > Welcome to the list Blake! I hate to inform you the line for one of those starts waaaaaaayyyyyy off the porch back over there past the shavings and sawdust pile ;-) . I've been waiting since '96 and still haven't reached the distribution point. At least there's nice folks to talk to in line! Roger in AL ---- Start of Message 127599 ---- From: "Nuno Souto" Date: 2004-01-17 02:22:01 Subject: Re: Hand cut dovetail question ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Campbell" > (Is a "technique" question allowed here? If not, let me know > offline, and I'll refrain in the future.) Of course! It's all about the tools. And a BIG part of that is to know how to use them effectively and efficiently, as they were designed to be used. Which is IME the most rewarding of it all. > My question is this; why are the steps marked "no!" in between steps > 9 and 10 and between steps 14 and 15 verboten? I am sure I saw a > Marc Adams seminar on dovetails, and he did exactly this. Been a while since my last dovetail, mainly due to lack of a gar^H^H^Hworkshop... Here goes anyway. From what I remember and what I can read off that site: One of the things to watch out when cutting into end grain is to avoid splitting the wood. If you pry rather than snap off, then you increase the chance of a split that will ruin the entire thing (or at the very least challenge your mending skills). The prior steps to those are to actually make stop cuts to allow the snap. Those are the most important, IMHO. Too light a stop cut and you won't be able to snap off from the other end. Too deep and you incur the risk of the final picture in that series, a bevelled edge. It's gotta be just right. Only practice can tell how far. The "snap" itself is not really a fast action like the word suggests. If the stop cut behind it is the right depth and the amount to be snapped off is just right, then the whole thing happens by itself and there is no need for fast or sudden movements. That's were it can be easily confused with a pry. Like in most hand tool jobs in woodworking, easy does it. Cheers Nuno Souto, in sunny Sydney Australia dbvision@o... ---- Start of Message 127600 ---- From: kjworz@c... Date: 2004-01-16 15:44:13 Subject: Re: Bio And you'll pay a pretty penny if you do find one, unless you are REALLY lucky. I dropped out of an auction for a Barnes Saw at around $1000. Hmmmmmm, you know, a galoot could make some dough cobbling together a modern repro.... -- -Chris Schwartz, Ex-Brewer Stealth #97 Silver Spring, MD > Blake Ashley wrote: > > > > >I want a Barnes hand-cranked circular rip saw REAL REAL bad. I guess > >all of that put together makes me a Galoot. So here I is. > > > Welcome to the list Blake! I hate to inform you the line for one of > those starts waaaaaaayyyyyy off the porch back over there past the > shavings and sawdust pile ;-) . I've been waiting since '96 and still > haven't reached the distribution point. At least there's nice folks to > talk to in line! > > Roger in AL > > ---- Start of Message 127601 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-16 10:43:21 Subject: Re: Rodriguez at Woodcraft - recap Eric writes : >I know this is a horse which has been beaten, killed, >resuscitated, and beaten some more.....but.....what say >the group on their experience with low angled planes on the >gnarly stuff? I'd say it's more important to have a tight mouth than anything else. Both planes you mention have adjustable mouths. Did you get a chance to look at them ? My experience is that even the lowliest new Record No.4 (smoothing plane, Jeff) will plane anything, in any direction, if the mouth is closed down to .003" or so. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 127602 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-16 15:41:24 Subject: Re: Ken Roberts Publishing Company Fascinating snippet from Bob, snipped a bit of course. . .. >but just I can't make myself respect Ken's stuff >as much as I should be able to. I've been wracking (sp) my poor old befuddled brain to remember why I ken'd the Roberts name, and of course now I have it - he's the cheery chappie I spoke to at the bit of Sheffield University to which he endowed his collection. Told me all too little about how he prised the Record company's collection of pristine samples of Preston tools from their 'competitors' cabinet etc. Somewhere on the web is the University site which gives details of the collection, what it is and how you can access it (or was) - The nice lady I spoke to at the time invited me to go and spend time for 'serious research' amongst their 40,000 paper items and 4,000 artefacts. I only hope it's all still there and one can still go and sift stuff. No comment on Bob's comment, - Mike Field should be your man there - a fellow TATHS member I believe - Mike=3F Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot - from the home of Sheffield, cutlers to humanity ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 127603 ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-01-16 07:45:57 Subject: Re: Brace question --- Jonathan Peck wrote: > Last month I picked up a couple of neat braces by > Holt. > > I would like to come up with some ideas to display > my modest collection > consisting of about 15 so far, but growing. I'm > thinking wall mounted > display case with hinged glass front panel and glass > sides. What I'm not > sure of, is how to mount them in a way that I can > take them out of the > display and handle them easily. Pics will also be > very helpful. Tales of brace > finds also welcomed. Glass case?? For braces that you're going to use? For years, my display/storage technique was cardboard boxes scattered around the floor of the shop. A box of approximate cubic shape about a foot or so on a side can hold 4 or 5 braces hung over each side, therefore allowing me to "display" 15 to 20 braces per box, and requiring only couple of boxes scattered around the floor or stacked in corners. Not very attractive, so I put up pegboard high on the walls and bought a bunch of pegboard hooks of various types in an attempt to figure out how to hold braces so they looked okay and were easy to access. Well, I think that braces reproduce when you aren't watching them, because most of the pegboard hooks are sagging under the weight of 3 or 4 braces, and some of them are hard to reach to use. I keep telling myself that someday I will make a bunch (a big bunch I'm afraid) of nice wood brackets to hold the braces individually on the wall, foregoing the pegboard and hooks. But it hasn't happened yet. I recall that someone did show a ladder-like display rack to hang braces on--was it someone's collection in Colorado? Sounded like a simple idea. I may, however, make a prototype wood bracket or two to hold a couple of nice braces and breast drills in the area by my desk in the house, but that will be mostly display, because I don't do much woodworking there, and the weird geared Morrison patent brace is probably the one I will display first, and I'm not sure how usable it is. But--a glass cabinet? Won't the glass get all dusty from sawdust? I think I'm jealous Jim Erdman, in Menomonie, WI who finds that after about 80 of any one kind of tool, he looses track of their personalities __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127604 ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-01-16 07:51:38 Subject: Re: Yankee 75 Chuck Jaw Questions and WTB --- John Ruth wrote: > Q1: Is there any more common Yankee product whose > chuck jaws will > interchange with those in a Yankee 75??? I did remember to look at my Stanley 75 push brace, and the jaws are smaller (shorter in length) than the jaws in the Yankee breast drills with 2 jaw chucks that I have. Slightly different style of jaws, too. I looked at a few other braces and spare jaws that I have and found nothing that would work without some work. If I find anything later--maybe will get more time Saturday--I will let you know. One set of spare jaws looked like they would work if they were ground down on the sides a bit to make them thinner, and if the spring that held the 2 jaws together was modified to be more like the Yankee one. I will see if I can figure out which model brace it is for, and maybe borrow a digital camera and get some pictures of them. ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127605 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-16 08:58:23 Subject: Thanks for the welcome Thanks for the warm welcome. Richard's comments started me thinking. Upon reflection, when I first started acquiring new hand tools for woodworking, the characteristics that gave me the impression that new tools are c#@p included such things as plastic totes, handles, and adjusting screws, chisels that wouldn't hold an edge, poor fit and finish on everything, dovetail saws with cross-cut teeth, uncomfortable handles, etc. Some of these problems can be fixed, although in some case it requires substantial work. For example, early on, after I read an article in FWW (I think it was by Rodriguez?) I took the thinnest dovetail saw I could find, cut the handle off, filed big rip teeth in it, and carved my own handle from a pattern in a Robert Wearing book. It worked great and I still use it for cutting my dovetails. But I would have to say that when the only thing left of the original saw is the steel in the blade and the brass back, it is probably more than a tune up. I think tuning up new hand tools and making them work is a great thing. But I'd rather spend the time with an old one . . . Blake ---- Start of Message 127606 ---- From: Ted Shuck Date: 2004-01-16 10:03:28 Subject: RE: Brace question On the discussion of displaying a brace collection, Jim wrote: > I recall that someone did show a ladder-like display > rack to hang braces on--was it someone's collection in > Colorado? Sounded like a simple idea. This is Bob Finch, the president of the RMTC, who lives in Lakewood, a suburb of Denver. He has a four-sided structure about 7 feet tall and 30 inches on a side. There are rungs about every foot up each side and it is *completely* filled with braces, but only his best ones. It's a little overwhelming. Unless your braces number in the hundreds, this might be overkill. Ted ---- Start of Message 127607 ---- From: "Don Kugelberg" Date: 2004-01-16 16:04:06 Subject: Re: Bio Christian, I couldn't agree with you more. I have the Anant knockoff of the Stanley 78, a Record 060 1/2 low angle block plane and a Record 04 smoother. All are tuned and work great. I also have close to 50 other planes which include older Stanley's and some new Knight wood planes. I would stack my tuned newer planes against the older ones and also believe it is easier for a newbie to purchase a new plane which he/she knows is complete and undamaged as a way to get his/her feet wet in fettling a plane. Once the mechanics of planing and fettling are learned, it is easier to know what you've just picked up at a flea market or evaluate what you've seen on eBay. Don ---- Start of Message 127608 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-16 11:16:23 Subject: Re: Brace question >Snipped as per FAQ>>>>>> >Glass case?? For braces that you're going to use? Sorry for the confusion. I am slowly accumulating 19th century braces. I'm thinking of displaying them in the finished part of the basement ala some type of glass display case. I keep my two most used braces (Stanley #813 12" and Fray Spofford #108 8") mounted on the wall, and about a dozen or so other braces hiding....ah..er, I mean hanging in between the floor joists above. http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=253 http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=240 Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 127609 ---- From: NickNaylo@a... Date: 2004-01-16 11:24:42 Subject: Re: Brace question Jonathan wrote: I would like to come up with some ideas to display my modest collection consisting of about 15 so far, but growing. What I'm not sure of, is how to mount them in a way that I can take them out of the display and handle them easily. Pics will also be very helpful **** Here is how mine are hung in the toolchest. http://www.members.aol.com/nicknaylo/images/03toolchest1.jpg very similar to how the chisel rack is made, a hole drilled, then a section of the arc cut out to allow the neck (I think its the neck) of the brace to slide in, the head holding the brace up. Idea shamelessly stolen from old Stanley ready made toolchests. Should be expandable to a whole row of braces behind glass. Been meaning to add a few more braces to my own toolchest. Michael-San Francisco ---- Start of Message 127610 ---- From: Gregory Isola Date: 2004-01-16 08:34:54 Subject: RE: Brace question Jonathon has lots of neat braces and wants to show 'em off . . . ********************* You might be overthinking this. (I know, galoots never do this.) You know all about Sandy's brace page: http://www.sydnassloot.com/brace.htm I think hanging braces this way, on a rod, is the way to go. It's easy, and it shows off wrist handles and chucks, which account for much of the variety among different makes and models. If you really wanna go the glass cabinet route, you could just make one with solid sides and a coupla rods instead of shelves. Better make it pretty sturdy, though; a pile o' braces is a heavy thing.* Greg Isola Alameda, CA *coulda just started collecting gimlets and made it a lot easier on yourself. Oh, wait a minute, Tony has all the gimlets . . . ---- Start of Message 127611 ---- From: "Gary Katsanis" Date: 2004-01-16 11:46:06 Subject: Re: Hand cut dovetail question Michael, I'm not a dovetail expert, but another difference I see is the way he has the bevel of the chisel pointed. Chisels tend to turn away from their bevel, and I think that he is making use of this trait. Gary K (too) Close to Buffalo NY where the high temperature recently would have been a delightful body mass index ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Campbell" To: "oldtools" Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 9:26 AM Subject: [oldtools] Hand cut dovetail question > (Is a "technique" question allowed here? If not, let me know > offline, and I'll refrain in the future.) > > While perusing yet another "how to" site on hand cut dovetails, I > come across the following page: > http://www.wood-workers.com/users/charlieb/DovetailDrawer12.html > > My question is this; why are the steps marked "no!" in between steps > 9 and 10 and between steps 14 and 15 verboten? I am sure I saw a > Marc Adams seminar on dovetails, and he did exactly this. > > Thanks, > > Michael > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 127612 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-16 09:45:50 Subject: My welcome Well, I had hoped that my greatest challenge would be to choose among the multitude of offers for cheap Barnes Circular saws that would flood my mailbox after posting my bio, but instead I'm told that the line forms waaaaayyyyyy over there. Hmmmmm. If the line is really that long, maybe LN should make a reproduction. Out of shiny bronze. Blake ---- Start of Message 127613 ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-01-16 11:04:59 Subject: Re: Thanks for the welcome > > >I think tuning up new hand tools and making them work is a great thing. > But I'd rather spend the time with an old one . . . > > >Blake > > Amen to that, but I have recently revamped the handles on some saws purchased at my local Woodcraft store and consequently spend many happy hours using my comfortable UK saws; hours that might have been spent trying to find rusty ones that needed more or as much work. There is a joy though that can be felt but not so easily described when using 100+ year old tools that might have produced items of beauty, quality, utility and charm in days gone by. It is as if the tool has absorbed some quality or spirit from it's previous owner's desire to create. When in the shop, my ancient ones can inspire creative impulses that the new, though high quality tools can not. The question might be... Does patina have spiritual qualities or am I just an excessively romantic old geek. ;-) -Rex Looking for the ghost of William Morris in my S&J rip saw. ---- Start of Message 127614 ---- From: Chuck Taylor Date: 2004-01-16 08:58:01 Subject: Re: Wooden Screws, and Thanks --- Richard.Wilson@s... wrote: > - I have a number of taps, but only 1 box. How > difficult is it, and any suggestions, on the notion > of using the taps to reverse engineer the boxes? Richard, I just happened to thumb through a book in a store the other day that talks about that. Shoulda bought a copy. "Making Screw Threads in Wood" by Fred Holder Guild of Master Craftsman Pubns Ltd ISBN: 1861081952 Fred is a woodturner and this is a book mainly for woodturners, but there is a chapter on making screwboxes and taps. St. Roy's "Woodwright's Workbook" also has a chapter on screwboxes and taps. Between the two, you can probably find what you need. Cheers, Chuck Taylor in Everett, WA, USA __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---- Start of Message 127615 ---- From: "Robert A. Weber" Date: 2004-01-16 11:15:16 Subject: Cheap Planes (was: RE: [oldtools] Bio) Don Kugelberg said: ... and also believe it is easier for a newbie to purchase a new plane = which he/she knows is complete and undamaged as a way to get his/her = feet wet in fettling a plane... Could it be interpreted as reasonable to go out and pick up a new = Craftsman or Lowe's Stanley plane ($20) and practice fettling, coming = out with a decent user? Rob in Peoria, IL, not sure where to look for rust in this area, but = eyeing those cheap planes at the big box and wondering... I remember seeing an on-line video on the FWW site where someone took a = brand new Stanley block plane an fettled it so it would slide through = end-grain like nothing... ---- Start of Message 127616 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-16 10:21:53 Subject: Cries for help Along with the disappointing news about the unavailability of Barnes Saws, my bio drew two pleas for help. Here is one: "Blake, I also lurked awhile before joining the old tool forum. When I started I said I would read all message so I been receiving many more e-mails than I ever though possible. When I try to change my mail options to the web address at bottom of all messages my e-mails won't go through. When I try to log on they won't accept my password. I had them e-mail my password and replied to their own e-mail they wouldn't accept that either. I can't even get them to drop me from the mailing list. Although this has nothing to do with your message, I need someone to help me. Maybe you can send them my message. thanks. I realy need help." He sounds desperate. Can someone help him? His address is: jerrydf44@y... ---- Start of Message 127617 ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 2004-01-16 09:27:00 Subject: Re: Hand cut dovetail question --- kjworz@c... wrote: > > Darn TOOTIN a handtool technique question is allowed here! I still dunno what the dynamic is, whereupon folks prefer to answer technique/experience questions off-list. Concern that their technique - as in the actual way they work wood - will be derided, scoffed at, scorned, etc? Not on this list. :) BTW, I've gotten oodles more advice (highly appreciated) in the mantle thread. I'll post a summary. To the point, I have found it utterly indispensible to cut to the line. If I mark accurately (I prefer a single bevel knife) and split the line, life is ever so much better. If I'm feeling especially industrious, I'll cut away the waste with a coping saw, which makes paring a shoulders a bit less work (and quieter). For those of you who think their early efforts at dovetails sucked, I offer a webpage as a manner of cautionary tale (gory screw-up, Steve). http://www.klownhammer.org/dovetails Paddy - remembering to apply extra sunblock for today's noontime outdoor swim. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127618 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-16 17:34:57 Subject: Re: Wooden Screws, and Thanks Chuck Taylor wrote: >Richard, > >I just happened to thumb through a book in a store the other day that >talks about that. Shoulda bought a copy. > >"Making Screw Threads in Wood" by Fred Holder Guild of Master Craftsman >Pubns Ltd ISBN: 1861081952 > >Fred is a woodturner and this is a book mainly for woodturners, but >there is a chapter on making screwboxes and taps. St. Roy's >"Woodwright's Workbook" also has a chapter on screwboxes and taps. >Between the two, you can probably find what you need. > > It's OK as a 1 stop reference, but it has (IMHO) no new material. http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_i- d=113207#message BugBear ---- Start of Message 127619 ---- From: Kirk Eppler Date: 2004-01-16 09:34:42 Subject: Re: Cheap Planes (was: RE: [oldtools] Bio) I used to agree with Don's thought below, but now I think it depends on how you value your time and your money. I bought a Record SP5 as my starter plane, and fettled it into my favorite user, as my first plane, using the article below. I have a friend who tried it with a Craftsman #4 size, and It just wouldn't go. Too many critical flaws for a newbie. You've gotta look at the base plane before you start to see if you time is going to be well spent or wasted. I now think picking up a LV or Clifton as a first plane, something in the reasonable price range, and finding out how it should work, then getting something else similar (Record or Stanley or Craftsman or Anant or ) and bringing it up to that same level may improve the learning curve. A great article on how to tune up a plane (from rj whelan in the BP archives at Woodcentral) is linked here. http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/plane_tune.shtml A great article on how to "cosmetically" clean up a plane (Hollowayizing, kinda like Martinizing at the dry cleaners) is found in the archives at http://archive.oldtools.org/archive_get.phtml?message_id=107815 I keep both near my project box for finds. Of course, all opinions are my own, not those of the authors of either piece, and worth exactly what you paid for them. I have no real financial interest in either author, except having bought holdfasts from Tim H through Tom H, and having partaken of Tom's hospitality at a few BAGathons... "Robert A. Weber" wrote: (And I snipped per FAQ down to the basics) > Don Kugelberg said: > > ... and also believe it is easier for a newbie to purchase a new plane > which he/she knows is complete and undamaged as a way to get his/her > feet wet in fettling a plane... > > Could it be interpreted as reasonable to go out and pick up a new > Craftsman or Lowe's Stanley plane ($20) and practice fettling, coming > out with a decent user? > -- Kirk Eppler in gloomy Half Moon Bay, CA Global Mfg Science and Technology Eppler.Kirk@g... ---- Start of Message 127620 ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-01-16 12:38:33 Subject: Re: Hand cut dovetail question Patrick Olguin wrote: > --- kjworz@c... wrote: > >>Darn TOOTIN a handtool technique question is allowed here! > > > I still dunno what the dynamic is, whereupon folks prefer to answer > technique/experience questions off-list. Concern that their technique > - as in the actual way they work wood - will be derided, scoffed at, > scorned, etc? Not on this list. :) BTW, I've gotten oodles more advice > (highly appreciated) in the mantle thread. I'll post a summary. I hope I didn't imply that I would prefer offlist responses, as that was not my intent. What I meant was that if technique questions were off-charter, let me know THAT fact offlist and I would refrain in the future. If they are, as it turns out, ON charter, by all means let the questions, answers, advice, et. al. fly! ---- Start of Message 127621 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-01-16 10:10:25 Subject: Re: Cheap Planes ... and also believe it is easier for a newbie to purchase a new plane which he/she knows is complete and undamaged as a way to get his/her feet wet in fettling a plane... If your intention is making the project the most important thing because you really aren't going to do many, by all means, step up and buy something expensive for your first plane. The makers can use the business. But you won't be advancing as a mechanic much (to use the old term). >Could it be interpreted as reasonable to go out and pick up a new >Craftsman or Lowe's Stanley plane ($20) and practice fettling, coming >out with a decent user? > I wouldn't recommend it. I've seen the insides of some of these and you'll need a milling machine if you want the underweight frog to seat to the crudely cast body. The ones I've looked at resemble Stanley's Defiance line except lower tolerances, if it's possible. Wood you can replace and blades come and go, but for a beginner I'd say, stay away. You need decent "bone structure" to start. Better to go to the swap meet and buy an old rusty Stanley #4 (too common and not worth enough to mess over much, Jeff) for a very few bucks and get into the game for real. If the first one you get is too far gone for one reason or another, save it for parts and get another one. You could do this about 10 times before you are in the ballpark of new and no way is it going to take that many. Lots of other plane makers produced quality goods, but nobody is going to be cheaper than a regular USA made Stanley #4 bench plane in the way of quality goods. Break down and study the parts and models before you shop and you'll be able to recognize terminal defects in advance. There are more than enough resources available if you are reading this. For a user, and especially a beginner, you don't care from all original parts, like lever caps and such, but you do care that the frog seats well in the body and isn't broken. I've seen a few warped beyond redemption planes over the years, but these are few and far between. You are going to pay for your education one way or another. Everybody does. Better to bite the bullet and actually learn it if you plan on doing much work. yours, Scott Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 127622 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-01-16 10:16:46 Subject: Re: Triple Patent date Stanley Plane worship Hi Galoots: Yes, type 11 is among the best of the Stanley planes, last of the low knobs, nice blade logo, frog adjuster, really superior craftsmanship on these, great wood, luxurious japanning.....I can picture myself quailing in a hardware store of the period, seeing the top-heavy type 12s on the the shelves---I can feel my blood running cold....what's next, improved Coca Cola? Great minds will always disagree, I ain't saying otherwise, but there are heresies---Shemp is funnier than Curly; Jack Daniels is bourbon; Cannibal Corpse outrocks Killdozer, people can believe anything, it turns out. Stanley's history of "improving" tools is a sad and shameful legacy---some would say it all started with the Bailey depth adjuster; some would name the lateral lever system, or the frog adjuster---a long line of things nobody really "needs"---many of the finest planes ever made have none of these features. But if you believe, as I do, that the family of Bailey style bench planes has validity, a line HAS to be drawn somewhere between the truly wonderful types 1 and 2 and the embarrassing dreck masquerading today as the culmination of 150 years of toolmaking knowhow. I put the line at the type 11, and indict the high knob. Not to say that there's anything wrong with the high knobs---some prefer them, just as some prefer scissors with blunt points, or small, lightweight spare tires. If it was a matter of taste, and of choice, that'd be one thing. But because the dopey-looking high knob replaced what had worked perfectly well for fifty years, and in the process, slandered and defamed the truly lovely and comfy lowknob, it's the devil. ---on that "it's the devil" thing---I've said before that curses become endearments over time; words like "dirty" and "damned" no longer have the power to incite riot that they had in my grandfather's day. To tell someone to "go to the devil" in Leonard Bailey's lifetime was the most insulting kind of talk, liable to get you gossiped about forever in the town where you said it, if they let you stay. I'm using the term "devil" in that sense. I could go on like this forever, as many of you know, but I'll stop around here, somewhere---it's glad I am that so many love the SW Stanleys--they're easy to find cheap, and easy to trade for the vastly superior earlier types; everybody wants them!?!? So, almost 100 years later, the hype is still paying off for the true, secondhand-buyin' believers. And I guess that's why they call me 'galoot". it's GAM, in Seattle, off to work Chris wrote---- > The type 11 Stanley model is recognized by many as superior. The > three patent dates is an indicator of it's 'type'. It's what I > prefer to own and use. ===== ____________________________________________________________ Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. D. D. Eisenhower ____________________________________________________________ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127623 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-16 11:22:37 Subject: Re: Hand cut dovetail question When I first tried cutting dovetails, I used to sneak up on 'em with a chisel. Then an article by Ian Kirby shamed me into learning to cut to the line. As persnickety as he seems to be, I owe him one for that. Blake ---- Start of Message 127624 ---- From: "Jim Esten" Date: 2004-01-16 12:31:23 Subject: RE: Hand cut dovetail question I go at least as far at a reality/sanity check...I still have my first saw till and a small rack for small backsaws (lumping all together) hanging on the wall... The till was a combination of pine and mdf (really!) and the rack of poplar. Some of the crudest work I've ever done. I think my first junior high shop project 30 years ago was better. But it sure does let me look at the current crop and sigh with relief that I'm getting better! I highly recommend the practice for anyone who doesn't think they are evolving! Oh, and BTW, 20ish, gray, with light snow today...rain mixed with snow tomorrow. Guess I'll forego my outdoor swim at least a few days... Cheers all, Jim E #2 in charming and moderately historic Cedarburg, WI USA Paddy said (much abbreviated for bandwidth conservation): For those of you who think their early efforts at dovetails sucked, I offer a webpage as a manner of cautionary tale (gory screw-up, Steve). http://www.klownhammer.org/dovetails Paddy - remembering to apply extra sunblock for today's noontime outdoor swim. ---- Start of Message 127625 ---- From: Jerry Davis Date: 2004-01-16 13:38:23 Subject: Re: Ken Roberts Publishing Company I have Vol II of Roberts' Wooden Planes in 19th Century America, so know that its mostly about Hermon Chapin and his band of merry men. What companies or makers are the focus of Vol I? Thanks, Jerry Griffin, GA ---- Start of Message 127626 ---- From: Roger Date: 2004-01-16 12:50:25 Subject: Re: [oldtools]Off list technique questions Patrick Olguin wrote: >I still dunno what the dynamic is, whereupon folks prefer to answer >technique/experience questions off-list. Concern that their technique - >as in the actual way they work wood - will be derided, scoffed at, >scorned, etc? Not on this list. :) BTW, I've gotten oodles more advice >(highly appreciated) in the mantle thread. I'll post a summary. > > On this line of thinking and the recent observations of excessive posting I agree with Mr. O'Deen that many folks are a little intimidated at times to post advice to everybody. I myself usually reply in private unless I think the answer will interest more than just a couple others. This is good in that folks get the answers they need but the mail volume is kept down. What I think IS important is that folks who ask for help post some sort of summary of on and off list comments, especially those that they actually tried and were helpful (or not helpful for that matter). On the other hand there really is no need to be intimidated by this group. I have certainly made many errors in advice I have given publicly and have always been very gently corrected. Roger in AL ---- Start of Message 127627 ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 2004-01-16 14:27:42 Subject: Administrivia WAS: Cries for help Jerry, your account has been set to nomail. Galoots, Jerry's message points out in a public way what I have known for sometime. Many do not realize that the way to change your subsription settings has changed from one where email commands are sent to an email address to one where you change the settings at a website. There is no mechanism to alert the Listmoms that you are sending emails commands to any of the servers at Cornell in an attempt to change settings. No person is receiving those emails. One must access the control panel using a web browser and click on the various controls. That address appears at the bottom of each Oldtools message and is: http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools If you ever experience a problem accessing the control panel, please send an email to us at: oldtools-owner@g... All this and a schmear of great stuff is contained in the FAQ: http://www.brendlers.net/oldtools/oldtools.html Listmoms - Ralph and Steve -----Original Message----- From: Blake Ashley "Blake, I also lurked awhile before joining the old tool forum. When I started I said I would read all message so I been receiving many more e-mails than I ever though possible. When I try to change my mail options to the web address at bottom of all messages my e-mails won't go through. When I try to log on they won't accept my password. I had them e-mail my password and replied to their own e-mail they wouldn't accept that either. ---- Start of Message 127628 ---- From: Matthew and Cathy Groves Date: 2004-01-16 13:45:28 Subject: Re: Brace question Here's my picture of Bob Finch's collection. I visited him before a flight out of Denver last year. http://homepage.mac.com/mcgroves/PhotoAlbum5.html Matthew Groves Kearney, Nebraska > This is Bob Finch, the president of the RMTC, who lives in > Lakewood, a suburb of Denver. He has a four-sided structure > about 7 feet tall and 30 inches on a side. There are rungs > about every foot up each side and it is *completely* filled > with braces, but only his best ones. It's a little overwhelming. > > Unless your braces number in the hundreds, this might be > overkill. > > Ted ---- Start of Message 127629 ---- From: Christopher Swingley Date: 2004-01-16 10:53:51 Subject: Re: Off-list technique questions GG's * Roger [2004-Jan-16 09:50 AKST]: > Patrick Olguin wrote: > > I still dunno what the dynamic is, whereupon folks prefer to answer > > technique/experience questions off-list. > > On this line of thinking and the recent observations of excessive > posting I agree with Mr. O'Deen that many folks are a little > intimidated at times to post advice to everybody. Perhaps we're veering back into subjects not related to the charter of OldTools, but as current archive maintainer, and long time Internet user, I feel like I should offer my few cents of opinion. First, I completely agree with previous messages that mention the inadequacy of "digest" mode for reading this (or frankly, any other) mailing list. Folks tempted by this mode of receiving messages would be much better off learning how to configure their mail program to filter OldTools messages into a seperate mailbox. All of the mail programs I'm familiar with (Microsoft clients, Messenger, Mozilla, Eudora, etc.) are capable of filtering and all OldTools messages have [oldtools] in the Subject, so it's pretty easy to keep all of our gruntings away from the spam of your Inbox. Instant "digest" mode, but much easier to parse than the "one big file" approach. Second, we all learn something when messages are sent to everyone. Only one person learns when replies are sent directly to them. Unless your reply really does only apply to the individual (you can buy burfl at Barfoos's shack off the 405, etc.) the rest of the list may benefit from the answers. And I think this applies to techniques of working wood, methods of electrozapping your tools, data on toolmakers, whatever! If readers aren't interested in a subject, that's what the 'Subject:' header and the 'Delete' button in your mail client are for. Again, don't censor yourself because someone out there is stuck in digest mode and will have to grudginly scroll past your response. We want to hear what you have to say! If most replies are private, and they don't make it to the list, searching the archive becomes pretty uninformative and reading the list is pretty boring. Searching for "dovetail help" or something results in a series of single posts where someone askes "Hey, how do I cut dovetails", and there's never any answer. Some might argue that we're covering the same ground that's already been convered many times before ("should I buy a 164 or a 62?", "how do I temper a plane iron", "anyone have any information on Disston & Son?", etc.). So what. That's what the list is for. Each time someone asks a question, we get a subtly different collection of answers from a different group of responders. I think there's always more to learn on almost any subject. That's not to say you shouldn't consult the archive before asking a question, but that suggestion is to help you refine your question, not an edict to prevent you from asking it. "Should I buy a 164 or a 62?" may become "Those of you with a 164, I'm concerned about the short sole. What has been your experience?", or "I see Disston & Son saws are more valuable that those marked Disston & Sons. Should I actually use this saw, or paint a barn scene on it and hang it on the wall?" Finally, don't be shy! In my experience, the OldTools list is the friendliest group of folks you'll find on the Internet. Topics that could easily turn into terrible, angry arguments ("shellac -- good or bad", "saw painters are evil", "cap irons -- what for?") result in peaceful exchanges that very rarely escalate into confrontation or unpleasantness. Even Natalie was handled with kindness and humor. Move your chair over to the table (there's a table, right?), have a beer or some iced tea, and join in the conversation! Anyway, gentle galoots, please reply to the list. Don't be shy. And for those unhappy with digest mode see if you can figure out how to filter your OldTools mail into another mail folder as an alternative. Chris -- Christopher S. Swingley University of Alaska Fairbanks cswingle@i... http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/ OldTools Searchable Archive: http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ http://archive.oldtools.org/ ---- Start of Message 127630 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-16 15:08:01 Subject: Re: Thanks for the welcome Rex writes : >There is a joy though that can be felt but not so easily described >when using 100+ year old tools that might have produced items of >beauty, quality, utility and charm in days gone by. It is as if the >tool has absorbed some quality or spirit from it's previous owner's >desire to create. When in the shop, my ancient ones can inspire >creative impulses that the new, though high quality tools can not. I've been trying to find suitable words to describe what I like about the oldtools list and the tools we talk about and this says it very nicely. When I walk into my shop there is something given off by all the old tools that I don't think I'd get from a bunch of new ones, even less from a bunch of machines. What makes oldtools different from the other places is history. When I use a hundred year-old saw I feel like I'm part of a long woodworking tradition. When I use a plastic-handled Sandvik I feel like I'm doit-yourselfer. It's people like Ken Roberts who have given us the history. To me it doesn't even matter if it's accurate. It still gives me something to stand on. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 127631 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-16 13:19:59 Subject: Shall I celibrate the Jubilee? Last year while on vacation, I stopped in an antique store in Payson, Arizona, and picked up an old cross-cut saw for $10. When I got it home I hung it up and didn't think much more about it. Then last month, I decided to try and identify it so I cleaned off some surface rust and grime and exposed the name "Disston" and a big diamond and the word "Jubilee". There is not much information on this saw on the net or in the archives (that I can find). From the little I have been able to glean, it is called the Diamond Jubilee and was a top quality model. Is it rare? Shall I gloat? It would be my first gloat on this list. BLake ---- Start of Message 127632 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-16 15:22:31 Subject: Re: Off-list technique questions <<>>snipper>><< >Even Natalie was handled with kindness and humor. OH MY F*CK*NG G*D http://archive.oldtools.org/archive_get.phtml? Message #76849 - get thread I think I just peed my pants Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 127633 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-16 15:22:31 Subject: Re: Off-list technique questions <<>>snipper>><< >Even Natalie was handled with kindness and humor. OH MY F*CK*NG G*D http://archive.oldtools.org/archive_get.phtml? Message #76849 - get thread I think I just peed my pants Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 127634 ---- From: vladimir spehar Date: 2004-01-16 15:56:12 Subject: Spring steel Hi folks, Can anyone recommend a source for spring steel in Canada or the US? Will they cut to my specifications? A website would be handy. Just looking for an alternate source should I lose my present supplier. Thanks. vlad ===== Cheers. Vladimir (Vlad) Spehar Spehar ToolWorks. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ---- Start of Message 127635 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-16 16:43:39 Subject: Ken Roberts Publishin Company Sandy has a signed first edition of Vol II on his forsale list. First come first.... http://www.sydnassloot.com/bk1.htm Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 127636 ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-01-16 17:30:59 Subject: Re: Cheap Planes >Could it be interpreted as reasonable to go out and pick up a new >Craftsman or Lowe's Stanley plane ($20) and practice fettling, coming >out with a decent user? > > >No I think not. I've wasted too much time on a #4 I purchased back in >the '70's and never got it working. I'd go to ebay or a FS post on >the list. > Ken ---- Start of Message 127637 ---- From: "Charles Aoun" Date: 2004-01-16 17:35:46 Subject: Re: Spring steel Vlad asks: >>Can anyone recommend a source for spring steel in Canada or the US? A website would be handy. www.admiralsteel.com/ >>Will they cut to my specifications? Yes, if the economics make sense to you both. No personal interest other than I've done business with them in the past and have been satisfied. Charles Aoun ---- Start of Message 127638 ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-01-16 14:54:37 Subject: T&G #48 and breadboard ends I have a #48 (t&g plane, Jeff) that I haven't used yet and I was thinking, with all of the recent posts on breadboard ends, of using this plane to create the tongue and groove for a breadboard end. This means that it would be cutting into end grain. It doesn't seem to me that the plane is really set up to do this. Am I being too cautious? Does it just require super-sharp cutters? Am I crazy to even think this? (I'll admit to being crazy for many other reasons, I'm just wanting to know if I can add this to the list) AAAndrew Living and Learning in Durham, North Carolina. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127639 ---- From: "Don Kugelberg" Date: 2004-01-17 00:17:38 Subject: Re: Cheap Planes (was: RE: Bio) I agree that I wouldn't walk into the local big box and purchase a current production Stanley #4 or into Sears and buy a plane and expect it to become a user no matter how much fettling was done to it. On the other hand, if one wanted to purchase an Anant #4 from Highland Hardware and fettle it I could come up with a pretty good user and if I bought a Record 060 1/2 LA block and did the same it would perform well. I know, I did it! For a little more money, I could add a Hock blade to each and really have something I could use on the cheap. More importantly, I could parlay the knowledge I acquired in fettling these planes and apply it to a Stanley 65 knuckle cap LA block (probably the best block plane Stanley ever made)and then I'd really have something to be proud of. I think too many of us have forgotten how intimidating it was to buy our first couple of old tools not knowing whether we would finish with a reasonable tool or not. I just believe we should make the slope a little more slippery for the newbies than it already is. Remember when you didn't know whether the bevel went up or down in a block plane? ---- Start of Message 127640 ---- From: sepost@i... (Scott Post) Date: 2004-01-16 19:45:18 Subject: Re: Rodriguez at Woodcraft - recap > Eric Bernard asked: > > Now I have always read ( truth be told - I've never actually > surface anything more complex than straight grained poplar ) > that for all those hardwoods, especially if it has complex grain > patterns that a smoother with it's iron bedded at a higher angle > ( York, middle, half, whatever ) is the way to go. I know this > was just an intermediate step - but the results Rodriguez got > with the 62 were pretty impressive. Then the last plane that hit > the board just prior to scraping was a low angle block?!? Did he mention at what angle he'd ground the bevel? The 62 is a bevel up plane so you can change the effective cutting angle by changing the bevel angle. The 62 is bedded at 12 degrees. A lot of people, myself included, grind the iron to 38 degrees, yielding a 50 degree cutting angle. On another forum, Rob Lee of Lee Valley mentioned they were going to start offering their low angled bench planes with higher bevel angles since most people use them on face grain, not end grain. Likewise, I have two low angled block planes. One is ground at 25 degrees for end grain and the other is at 38 for working small areas of tearout. -- Scott Post sepost@i... http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/ ---- Start of Message 127641 ---- From: Christopher Swingley Date: 2004-01-16 15:54:12 Subject: Re: T&G #48 and breadboard ends Andrew, * Andrew Midkiff [2004-Jan-16 13:54 AKST]: > I have a #48 (t&g plane, Jeff) that I haven't used yet and I was > thinking, with all of the recent posts on breadboard ends, of using > this plane to create the tongue and groove for a breadboard end. This > means that it would be cutting into end grain. It doesn't seem to me > that the plane is really set up to do this. I think you're right that you're going to have trouble cutting a tongue into end grain with a #48. Even if the plane will do it, the shoulders on the face of the table will be really ragged. I've never used one (mine has no irons. . .) so I can't say with any authority that this is true, but I'd do it the way it was suggested in an earlier thread: Use a rabbet plane of some sort (or a saw and chisel if you don't have a rabbet plane) to cut a rabbet on both sides (top and bottom) of the table ends, and use the groover on the #48 to cut a grove in the end pieces. You probably want to cut the grooves first, since it's the more accurate tool and you'll be fitting the potentially less accurate tongue into it. Chris -- Christopher S. Swingley University of Alaska Fairbanks cswingle@i... http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/ OldTools Searchable Archive: http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ http://archive.oldtools.org/ ---- Start of Message 127642 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-01-16 19:55:11 Subject: Re: Rodriguez at Woodcraft - recap Only 2 LA Block planes? It's a foul wind that blows, and a sad time, when folks promote such miniscule quantities of tools, as being sufficient. For shame. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Hittin' the sack early, in great anticipation of Spicer's Tool Auction in Rhode Island tomorrow. > > Likewise, I have two low angled block planes. One is ground at 25 degrees > for end grain and the other is at 38 for working small areas of tearout. > > -- > Scott Post ---- Start of Message 127643 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-01-16 20:04:40 Subject: Re: Brace question > Here's my picture of Bob Finch's collection. I visited him before a flight > out of Denver last year. > http://homepage.mac.com/mcgroves/PhotoAlbum5.html Oh my. Didn't know how step that slope could be.... Just to provide a little balance in the world. My measy handful of braces are hang on the plastic sewer pipe that runs along the basement wall in my shop.... Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 127644 ---- From: Kevin S Date: 2004-01-16 17:26:20 Subject: Re: record 043 screws --- Richard.Wilson@s... wrote: > Kevin asks about 43's . . . . . (that cute one > handed plough that grooves > for drawer bottoms better than the 040) > > >The adjustment screws on the fence and depth stop > >are not knurled thumbscrews, they are more like > >wing nuts. > > Did all 043's come from the factory with > > thumbscrews? > > > No, over time there were a variety of fasteners. > Pics of all or several > of them are somewhere at the slow and cumbersome and > soon to be amended > www.yorkshireman.info if you follow links to tools > and 43's - beware that > pics haven't been optimised so they're chunky. > Excellent! Those pics are perfect - my thumbscrews are second from the left in the "screw types" picture. Here I was thinking I had replacements, and it turns out they are originals, and show my plane might be an earlier type. Cool! This list is great. Thanks much, Kevin, in Southampton, MA (USA) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127645 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-16 20:33:36 Subject: Re: Rodriguez at Woodcraft - recap Scott writes : >Did he mention at what angle he'd ground the bevel? The 62 is a bevel >up plane so you can change the effective cutting angle by changing the >bevel angle. The 62 is bedded at 12 degrees. A lot of people, myself >included, grind the iron to 38 degrees, yielding a 50 degree cutting >angle. I've found that an iron ground to more than 25 degrees or so doesn't stay sharp very long. Even the slightest bit of wear at the edge quickly gives a rounded over edge and the iron stops cutting almost completely. With a sharper angle a bit of wear will degrade the performance but the iron will still keep cutting for a long time. I don't understand why you should need 50 degrees in the case of a low-angle plane. You have an almost perfectly bedded iron and you can close the mouth to zero. Why use a low-angle plane if you're going to turn it into a scraper ? Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 127646 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-01-16 20:58:11 Subject: Re: Thanks for the welcome GG's I believe Brother Rex has reached Galoot Level #69, you give a little, and the tool gives back more. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, Ma > There is a joy though that can be felt but not so easily described > when using 100+ year old tools that might have produced items of > beauty, quality, utility and charm in days gone by. It is as if the > tool has absorbed some quality or spirit from it's previous owner's > desire to create. When in the shop, my ancient ones can inspire > creative impulses that the new, though high quality tools can not. > The question might be... Does patina have spiritual qualities or am I > just an excessively romantic old geek. ;-) > > -Rex > ---- Start of Message 127647 ---- From: Matthew and Cathy Groves Date: 2004-01-16 21:17:59 Subject: Re: T&G #48 and breadboard ends This would be very helpful, but the most important tip for avoiding a project-altering mistake would be to be sure and clamp a waste block (of similar thickness) to the end of the endgrain that you are planing. This will prevent any blowout at the end from existing on your piece. The waste block will take all of the blows. > > Does it just require > super-sharp cutters? ---- Start of Message 127648 ---- From: "John Wardle" Date: 2004-01-16 19:19:08 Subject: Bio Information from a newbie Well, I'm not really sure how to write one of these things, so I guess = I'll just jump right in.... My name is John Wardle, I'm a married, father of a soon-to-be GIT (3y/o) = boy and my only experiance with wood has been either building houses with = my father for a short time as a kid or walking through them for 12 years = in the army looking for people to shoot at. I was only interested in woodworking initially as a way to get the = furniture I wanted for the house instead of buying whatever some factory = decided to pump out that year. But after checking into a more "normite" = way of working like my dad does, I picked up a new stanley block plane = from a local Borg and made some shavings. Now I'm hooked. The wife is starting to understand why I like this so much, when she sees = me and the boy in what will someday be a shop; making shavings out of = scraps from 'recycled' oak pallets. She just sits and watches with the = dogs. I've only just started to aquire my tools which currently consist of the = aforementioned plane, and a 4 piece set of Marples blue handle chisels. I'm looking forward to learning just what the heck you are all talking = about on here, and hopefully someday, I'll have something to contribute = myself. It's nice to meet you all, and as soon as I can get up the nerve, I'll = refer to my webpage with photos of my first ever, entirley handcut = dovetails. And I mean entirley handcut, not even a saw was used......Not a = pretty sight trust me. Oh, I almost forgot.....I'm employed at a local Community College here in = Eugene, Oregon as a Public Safety Officer. Sorta like a Rent-a-Cop plus = one..... Well, all, like I said, nice to meet you, and if anyone has some old tools = just lying about with nothing better to do.....I have lots of nice, warm, = dry and EMPTY shelves they can call home. Ofc. John D. Wardle Lane Community College=20 Department of Public Safety 4000 East 30th Ave. Eugene, Oregon 97431 "I'm not the cause of your problems but the result of your actions. Your = life is not my fault" TO IGNORE THE FACTS, DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACTS. ---- Start of Message 127649 ---- From: "Gary Katsanis" Date: 2004-01-16 23:28:47 Subject: Re: Triple Patent date Stanley Plane worship I agree that the type 11 is among the best. I've had pretty good luck with the WWII planes, though. I'll usually risk buying anything older than the planes with the rounded top to the iron - type 18 I think. If the japanning ain't black, though, I run. Gary K Close to Buffalo NY GAM, in Seattle, wrote: > Hi Galoots: > Yes, type 11 is among the best of the Stanley planes, last of the > low knobs, nice blade logo, frog adjuster, really superior > craftsmanship on these, great wood, luxurious japanning.....I can --snip, snip-- > Chris wrote---- > > The type 11 Stanley model is recognized by many as superior. The > > three patent dates is an indicator of it's 'type'. It's what I > > prefer to own and use. > ---- Start of Message 127650 ---- From: "Gary Katsanis" Date: 2004-01-16 23:32:27 Subject: Re: Hand cut dovetail question Paddy, Thanks for sharing this - I feel better knowing that we all had to learn sometime. I think I still have you beat, though. My first dovetails were done in softwood crating with a pocket knife. It looks like a bunch of demented beavers got drunk one night. Someday when I've had too much myself, I'll post pictures. Gary K Close to Buffalo NY ----- Original Message ----- --snip, snip-- > > For those of you who think their early efforts at dovetails sucked, I offer a > webpage as a manner of cautionary tale (gory screw-up, Steve). > --snip, snip-- ---- Start of Message 127651 ---- From: Michael Lindgren Date: 2004-01-16 23:13:49 Subject: Re: Hand cut dovetail question Hi Folks, As I am in the process of cutting ratty dovetails for the ten drawers in a workbench base, I will fess up to doing the verboten steps on the page below. Since my dovetails, after 12 years of ocassional flurries of them, have not gotten to the "real good" stage, I won't say the fellow is wrong. I do them a little differently, and I bet not as fast as he does. I make the vertical cut, then come in horizontally and set the chisel bevel up at a depth I suspect to be no deeper than I cut on the vertical. A slight pop and the chip flies out. If you go too shalllow on the first one, you risk driving into the wood beyond the dovetail and lifting it up, as others have said). If you go too deep, then the chip does not pop out, and I reset the chisel a little shallower. I've tried it the way described in the web page below, but didn't like it as well, probably because I taught myself this slightly different way in the beginning. I start on the backside(would be the inside of the drawer) and cut 2/3's or 3/4 of the way through, and if I err on the vertical, it is to cut in, away from the tail. Then I turn over, and for drawer sides(thin), the first chops often remove the remaining wood quite cleanly, and leave a nice edge. One other thing to note is that if you do as I do and come in from the end, you need to use a different(narrower) chisel to do the vertical, or else make two vertical cuts(what I do) with the narrower than optimal chisel, which enhances the chances that the vertical cuts are not perfect in appearance. For me, perfect in appearance is not a big deal for drawer dovetails, and most of the rest that I use are pretty much hidden. It is a great joint, even if not cut perfectly, and just like Paddy I can see gradual improvement over time, even if my examples are scattered all over my house in imperfect dressers, tables, etc. Of course, I am also a bit lazy, and the only lines I lay out are the depth lines and the ones where I mark the pins from the tails. The tails I just cut by eye, and don't worry too much about getting the angle perfect. I guess I have reached the level of incompetence I can live with on them. Now if I could just get the drawer fettling to go a bit smoother... Happy dovetails, Mike Lindgren On Fri, 16 Jan 2004, Michael Campbell wrote: > (Is a "technique" question allowed here? If not, let me know > offline, and I'll refrain in the future.) > > While perusing yet another "how to" site on hand cut dovetails, I > come across the following page: > http://www.wood-workers.com/users/charlieb/DovetailDrawer12.html > > My question is this; why are the steps marked "no!" in between steps > 9 and 10 and between steps 14 and 15 verboten? I am sure I saw a > Marc Adams seminar on dovetails, and he did exactly this. > ---- Start of Message 127652 ---- From: greg lynn Date: 2004-01-17 01:28:00 Subject: Pardon me for the off topic post At 08:37 AM 1/16/04 -0600, Jim Esten wrote: >Having done those verboten things, I'll take a SWAG at it... > >First, do not pry. Well, this one ought to be obvious, but that didn't stop >me. You will very often splinter your face edge as the chisel comes up out >of the valley you are prying from. Ugly. > >The other thing noted in the graphic is trying to come in from the end (and >fairly deep in the graphic although this can go awry even on a shallow >attempt). What sometimes happens is the chisel follows the grain and unless >you have already gone deep enough at the shoulder, it is pretty easy to chip >out a quite large chunk. > >Do I continue to do those things....of course I do, although I've botched >enough with the prying to tone that down. I do frequently clean out waste >coming in from the end grain, but am careful to do it only with very shallow >passes no deeper that I've already plunged at the shoulder. > >And as I understand it, technique questions are quite fair game!!! > >Cheers, > >Jim E #2 in charming and moderately historic Cedarburg, WI USA > > GG, pardon the off topic post but, you should be aware http://www.secretservice.gov/alert419.shtml This is the only newsgroup I subscribe to so I suspect they creep got my address from here. He says I've inherited $7 million dollars. The FBI referred me to the above link. beware brothers, ---- Start of Message 127653 ---- From: wglynn@d... Date: 2004-01-17 02:01:40 Subject: Re: Spring steel Try this address: http://www.pacific-hoe.com/home.htm If you would like to see some of their steel give me an address and I'll send you a couple of pieces. Greg >Hi folks, > >Can anyone recommend a source for spring steel in ---- Start of Message 127654 ---- From: "Steve Knight" Date: 2004-01-17 00:09:36 Subject: RE: Spring steel http://www.pacific-hoe.com/home.htm I used to work there. Man talk about Norms wet dream (G) but this place would be like a Devil's church to a Christian when you think of a oldtool user (G) Nothing like quenching a 4' sawblade right out of heat treat. ---- Start of Message 127655 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-01-17 08:33:21 Subject: RE: Wooden Screws, and Thanks : -----Original Message----- : From: Richard.Wilson@s... [mailto:Richard.Wilson@s...] : Sent: 16 January 2004 10:42 : To: oldtools : Cc: oldtools : Subject: Re: [oldtools] Wooden Screws, and Thanks : : I foresee making a box, cutting a thread through it with the : tap, then : installing a cutter, which I suppose goes in some sort of : seat, then using : my new screw box to make lots more threads. If I understand this correctly, the snag will be that the workpiece will see a hole having the core diameter of the thread whereas its own diameter will be the overall diameter. Hence it will not fit. Jeff, who has never even seen on of these in the flesh, hence might be talking through his keyboard. -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 127656 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-01-17 10:49:09 Subject: re: Triple Patent date Stanley Plane worship I am intotal agreement that the Type 11 is the best of the best. Type 10 is the same thing low knob with adjuster but two paten dates. It was only made for two years acording to the type studies so it doesn't turn up as often. Having said all that, with the 4 1/2 there are other things ar play than the type. The 4 1/2 is a design that Stanly got right and any type, properly tuned is a real eye opener as to what a metal plane can do. I have to fess up that this is the one number where I found a user that I like better than my Type 11's. I found a war casting with an adjuster and the extera weight(I guess) makes it work even better. Absolutly unbelieveable what this plane will do. Steve who is about three quarters to his goal of at least two Type 11's in No. 3 thru No. 8 ---- Start of Message 127657 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-01-17 11:02:20 Subject: Re: Thanks for the welcome Rex you did a great job of putting the list into words(not that words are in short supply). Finding an old plane, saw, spokeshave or whatever and cleaning, tuning and adjusting it gives a tool that is yours in a way that no out of the box tool however good can ever be. I wonder how many people each year are put off hand tools for life by the new plane that won't cut or the new saw that leaves blisters. All people have iron in their blood, so much better are those that have iron oxide instead. Steve in Indy ---- Start of Message 127658 ---- From: sepost@i... (Scott Post) Date: 2004-01-17 06:16:27 Subject: Re: Rodriguez at Woodcraft - recap; > Paul Pedersen wrote: > > I don't understand why you should need 50 degrees in the case > of a low-angle plane. You have an almost perfectly bedded iron > and you can close the mouth to zero. Why use a low-angle plane > if you're going to turn it into a scraper ? > For cooperative woods, I agree. But when the wood is taking a spit in your face attitude the high angle completes what I've found to be the necessary triumvirate: tight mouth, solid bedding, and high angle. Throughout the year about all I do to my planes is keep the irons honed. About once a year I pull out all my user planes and give them a good going over to make sure they're still in tune. Last weekend was this year's session. I had a hunk of hard, curly maple in the vise to check each plane and the low angled block plane with a 25 degree bevel couldn't leave a smooth surface (but I really wasn't expecting it to). It's partner with the higher angle could. I don't like this high angle for most situations because it makes the plane too hard to push. -- Scott Post sepost@i... http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/ Who looked up the spelling of "triumvirate" so I'd have credibility with Bob. :-) ---- Start of Message 127659 ---- From: "Bill Taggart" Date: 2004-01-17 07:44:32 Subject: Hiatus Well, as much as it pains me, I think I need to suspend e-mail from the OldTools and OWWM lists for a little while. Just got last semester's grades, and it's clear I wasn't as focused as I was in my first year of law school. Nothing catastrophic - lots of others in my class would be thrilled to get what I got, but for me it was a bit of a drop. I have certain goals I've set for myself, and the volume of stuff coming from the lists is not helping. Too much of an easy distraction when I'm bored with what I really *should* be focusing on. So... I'll keep my subscription, maybe check the archives every now and then. Feel free to drop me a line now and then, should anyone feel so moved. Have fun and I'll see y'all again later... - Bill T. - Glen Allen, VA, USA ---- Start of Message 127660 ---- From: "Steve from Kokomo" Date: 2004-01-17 08:42:34 Subject: Re: Hand cut dovetail question GGs; If this ground's been covered before, please accept my apologies. After taking the time to study the disagrams here > http://www.wood-workers.com/users/charlieb/DovetailDrawer12.html I think I get it. I may be slow, but it took a while to figure out that we are looking edge-on at a board lying flat on the bench. Anyway, he's doing two things that prohibit the "X"ed out moves: (1) he's working on a tail board with very narrow pin spaces - too narrow to safely plunge in with a chisel from the end, so he's going in from the top. (2) He's protecting the surface of the adjoining tails by not levering down and hitting them - hence the emphasis on "SNAP"ing the chip out with the bezel down. And, of course, he's making the plunge cuts that define ends of the spaces with the bezel toward the waste sice. When I took Marc Adams' dovetail class, he taught us to go in from the end. Even with the gaping spaces between tails, I think I still managed to nick the edge of more than one tail. This approach keeps the chisel away from the tails throughout the chopping process. I'm too much of a knuckle-dragger to make really pretty drawers with those nice, tiny pins, so I haven't tried his technique. But it looks sound to me. -- Steve - another Kokomo galoot ---- Start of Message 127661 ---- From: "Steve from Kokomo" Date: 2004-01-17 09:12:31 Subject: Re: Rodriguez at Woodcraft - recap; Scott Post said: >> Paul Pedersen wrote: >> >> I don't understand why you should need 50 degrees in the case >> of a low-angle plane. You have an almost perfectly bedded iron and >> you can close the mouth to zero. Why use a low-angle plane >> if you're going to turn it into a scraper ? >> > > For cooperative woods, I agree. But when the wood is taking a spit in > your face attitude the high angle completes what I've found to be the > necessary triumvirate: tight mouth, solid bedding, and high angle. But why not a #19 (if you're fond of knuckle-joints as I am) with a 25-deg bed and a 25-deg grind? Seems like the 25-deg grind would be less prone to rounding over (as Paul said). Just curious. Since you've finished a lot more projects than I have, I figure you may worth listening to. ;^) -- Steve - another Kokomo galoot ---- Start of Message 127662 ---- From: sepost@i... (Scott Post) Date: 2004-01-17 09:37:44 Subject: Re: Rodriguez at Woodcraft - recap;; > Steve from Kokomo wrote: > > Scott Post said: > > > > For cooperative woods, I agree. But when the wood is taking a spit in > > your face attitude the high angle completes what I've found to be the > > necessary triumvirate: tight mouth, solid bedding, and high angle. > > But why not a #19 (if you're fond of knuckle-joints as I am) with a 25-deg > bed and a 25-deg grind? No particular reason for picking a low angled block plane other than I had an extra, while I only have one standard bed block plane. -- Scott Post sepost@i... http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/ Who just came up from a bit of shellacing in the basement... ---- Start of Message 127663 ---- From: Timothy Collins Date: 2004-01-17 09:36:54 Subject: RE: Wooden Screws, and Thanks Roy Underhill in "The Woodwrights WorkBook" details how to make a tap and thread box. Making the thread box is easier once you have a tap. Setting the cutter (and shapping it correctly) appears to take a little finess. I've not done this, but it doesn't seem any worse than beding the iron in a wooden plane. He also says thread boxes for 1 2/4 to 3 inches requir 2 cutters (one taking a partial depth cut first). Also describes aligning the 2 cutters as "a matter of great nicety" (which means "a pain in the #@#" to me) tim : : I foresee making a box, cutting a thread through it with the : tap, then : installing a cutter, which I suppose goes in some sort of : seat, then using : my new screw box to make lots more threads. If I understand this correctly, the snag will be that the workpiece will see a hole having the core diameter of the thread whereas its own diameter will be the overall diameter. Hence it will not fit. Jeff, who has never even seen on of these in the flesh, hence might be talking through his keyboard. -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 127664 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-17 09:07:42 Subject: Pliers type Saw Set Fellow galoots, I have done saw sharpening but more of the quick and dirty variety than the whole process. A number of times now I have come across pliers type saw sets for a buck or a quarter and what I want to know is will one set work for both crosscut and rip saws? What are a few features for a novice to complete saw sharpening to look for and what features should I avoid like the plague? I really want to give this a try. Thank you very much for any and all help! ---- Start of Message 127665 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-01-17 10:18:48 Subject: Re: Thanks for the welcome Hi Steve & All, This is not OT, so move on if you choose. It's specifically about Steve's comment that, "All people have iron in their blood, so much better are those who have iron oxide instead." A few weeks ago that would have gone right past me without much thought, but some might recall a tongue-in-cheek post of mine a while ago about putting my wife in a zap tank to reduce the iron overload she'd been found to have in her blood. At the time, I was thinking that iron in the blood would naturally be in more of an oxide form than other, but maybe not? Anyway, we didn't go the tank route. Instead, I'm sticking a needle in her belly every day and hooking that up to a portable pumping device that forces some sort of sludge into her that supposedly will absorb the iron and pass it off thru her kidneys. The third day we did that, she had some problems that lead to stopping for four days to be sure weren't side effects. Docs seem pretty sure there's no connection and that she probably had a mini-stroke instead. So we've now been back on the sludge for three more days. MORALS: Iron or iron oxide in the blood is not necessarily a good thing and don't grow old. Best Wishes, Solomons Bob ---- Start of Message 127666 ---- From: "Steve from Kokomo" Date: 2004-01-17 10:40:59 Subject: Re: Rodriguez at Woodcraft - recap;; Scott Post said: > I only have one standard bed block plane. That's good, Scott, very good. The first step is admitting that you have a problem. The SGFH is here for you. -- Steve - another Kokomo galoot ---- Start of Message 127667 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-01-17 10:41:28 Subject: Re: Bio Information from a newbie Hi John & All, Welcome to the group!. I can see how a set of Marples blue handles could be good assets for a public safety officer. What sort of holster do you carry them around in? Just joking, but I am reminded of a story from my youth. I grew up in South Jersey farm country near a very large plant that froze and canned foods. They started having a serious problem with pilferage that their regular security people couldn't seem to resolve. A guy (about 6'4" and 275 lbs.) recently discharged from the MPs went to them with a suggestion that he could help if they'd let him do things his way on a basis of his only being paid if he succeeded; they agreed. He started working nights carrying a .45 pistol, a LARGE Bowie knife, and a pick axe handle. The axe handle apparently got the most use of the three, since the local hospital had no substantial increases in other types of injuries. He never passed anybody on to the local cops for arrest, but within a couple months, the pilferage was down to a very minor level. Best Wishes, Solomons Bob ---- Start of Message 127668 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-17 09:55:49 Subject: RE: Content - absence of - and scythe lessons I have been out of town for a few days so once again there is a huge load of Oldtools messages. I wasn't sure if you were aiming at my attention or not, I suspected some. The sickle seems to be used backwards from how everyone tries to handle it. They think it is meant to be swung with the arms when really it is meant to be just held with the arms and the hips swing from side to side and do the majority of the work. Which coincidentally as I have lately found out from my chiropractor and therapist that the work done with the largest muscles possible is the safest way as well. Furthermore I wonder what methods that were not preserved that allows us to get carpal tunnel syndrome and not back then... I think some of these oldtools may carry some secrets to all of this intrinsic to their design and the way they were/are used. The feet advance forward between each cut (on the backstroke if I recall correctly). The rows are gone down with the body 90 degrees to the work. In other words you just line up your body at the far left corner nearest you in the field and you work across the width of the field and then go back and start over. That is if you are harvesting something like wheat and you want the wheat all laying in the same direction for ease of harvest. Sharpening was usually handled by my now deceased grandpa. He preferred those tapered stones for the rounded edges curves once again if I recall correctly. I don't recall hardly any effort going into sharpening the scythe compared to other tools like the axes and such so they must have beep kept quite coarse, maybe almost like a shovel today. I think when the tool started tearing and snagging often that was the sign to bring it in to sharpen it. I always thought it was a fun tool to use and I frequently brought it down to the lake at the beginning of the year rather than the power mower to cut down the early 3-4 high grass and sometimes 6 foot high cattails. It was a demanding tool in the sense of discipline. You can't jerk around such a heavy tool without it really putting some pain on your arms so the motion is very disciplined, very rhythmic, slow in a sense but in a sense very efficient because you are only cutting the grass/wheat/cattails at one level rather than the blade chewing it up over and over. It actually worked better on the high stuff where a normal lawnmower would stall. And I just liked seeing it there every year when I came up. The sickle was just the opposite. Not very demanding at all but not very powerful if you had a serious amount of work to do and on these old places with many acres almost every job is a fairly large job. You know another thing pops to mind and I may be wrong about it or it could just be all I remember but I think he only sharpened those two tools from the top which would make them single bevel edges much like a hewning broadaxe would have a single bevel edge. It has been so many years now since I have regularly visited but I hope it helps. Things were very different out there. > [Original Message] > From: > To: oldtools > Cc: oldtools > Date: 1/13/2004 3:42:35 AM > Subject: RE: [oldtools] Content - absence of - and fixing stool tops question > > John felt I was aiming at him when he wrote . . . . > > >So Richard I'm sorry if I have offended you in any way. > > And I've assured him I wasn't, but I thought it appropriate to make a > public appeal to him to expand on . . . > > >I went up north to my > >grandpa's old house. I was taught to keep tools sharp and we > > and > > >I can share the > >proper technique for using a scythe or a sickle because I've spent dozens > >of hours using both. > > > > I, for one, find accounts from real users of how to be 'using' tools that > we've rescued from being rust baskets to be more valuable than the > straightforward story of how to recondition it in the first place. Just > what kind of an edge did a 'professional' user aim for? Just how *do* you > tune up a scythe to your personal needs ( did anyone else keep Don > McDonnell's treatise on adze set-up ? it's invaluable) > > So, John - keep 'em coming! > > > Richard Wilson > Yorkshireman Galoot with a rock solid stool framework awaiting finishing > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------- > > For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website > at www.salvesen.com. > > The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and > for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged > and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, > use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended > recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this > message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return > e-mail. > > Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to > ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. > However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a > result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your > own virus checks before opening any attachment. > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 127669 ---- From: Dan Miller Date: 2004-01-17 11:02:50 Subject: Galooticlaus Came! A couple mornings ago, whilst braving the -10F temps and -35 windchill to get the paper, I found Galooticlaus had visited and left a package by the back door. Inside, a Lee Valley shop apron. I didn't have one, and SWMBO will be pleased that I will be leaving more shavings in the shop rather than scattered through the house. Thanks Galooticlaus! Cheers, Dan ______________________ Daniel Miller Dragonfly Canoe Works North Greenbush, NY http://dragonflycanoe.com ---- Start of Message 127670 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-17 08:20:21 Subject: Re: Pliers type Saw Set What you want is a Stanley 42X sawset. The others are all pretty much the same. The 42X has a second piston which holds the blade tight while the other piston sets the tooth. All this in one squeeze of the handle. I love mine. I have 3 others that I don't use at all. On Saturday, January 17, 2004, at 07:07 AM, John Sawchak wrote: > Fellow galoots, > > I have done saw sharpening but more of the quick and dirty > variety than the whole process. A number of times now I have come > across > pliers type saw sets for a buck or a quarter and what I want to know is > will one set work for both crosscut and rip saws? What are a few > features > for a novice to complete saw sharpening to look for and what features > should I avoid like the plague? I really want to give this a try. > > Thank you very much for any and all help! > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 127671 ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-01-17 12:22:31 Subject: What is this saw? Got a 5.5 TPI (filed rip) saw the other day. unremarkable, but google doesn't show much about it. I plan on using it as a testbed for practicing sharpening but wanted to do my due diligence in seeing what I have. The etch is all but unreadable, but it LOOKS like a circle border, with the words "The Guinea Saw" inside. Also inside are 2 other circles, next to each other. In the left one is some sort of shield, like a heraldric display, and in the right one is what appears to be the bust of a man in profile, dressed in ... Grecian (?) garb. Like you would see a bust of Caesar or something. Beyond that, I can't make much out. Any clues? ---- Start of Message 127672 ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-01-17 09:38:34 Subject: Re: What is this saw? On 17 Jan 2004 at 12:22, Michael campbell wrote: > The etch is all but unreadable, but it LOOKS like a circle border, > with the words "The Guinea Saw" inside. Also inside are 2 other > circles, next to each other. In the left one is some sort of shield, > like a heraldric display, and in the right one is what appears to be > the bust of a man in profile, dressed in ... Grecian (?) garb. Like you would see a bust of Caesar or something. Sounds reminiscent of a saw I found in an antique mall in Horncastle (East of Lincoln in the UK, Paddy). That was a backsaw, but had the notation "Golden Guinea" and I seem to recall it did have a similar etch. The more interesting thing about it was that it had a (fake) coin as a medallion. Looked newish so I didn't buy it, but I was sort of sorry I hadn't picked it up. Perhaps our UK brethren (and sistern, alf) could shed some more light on whether these are commonly found. Just to suggest your saw may be of English manufacture. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Road, Santa Rosa, CA 95404 woodworking page: http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools booklist at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 127673 ---- From: "Walt & Mary Henderson" Date: 2004-01-17 12:58:01 Subject: RE: Hand cut dovetail question A good day to all! I think that a few of the most important aspects of hand cutting dovetails (the only way to do it!) is first to find a knowledgeable teacher. Years ago I used "Tage Fried" as my instructor. I found his books "Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking" excellent learning guides. He shows many different ways to perform a given task. Next, once you find a technique you want to use, stay with it and be CONSISTENT. Like it or not, practice makes perfect . . . there's no way around it. This stuff is not rocket science, anyone can do it. I've had a brain tumor & have attention deficit disorder, yet I'm reasonably competent at what I do. Well Friends, time for me to get out of my pulpit. Live long, be happy! Your Most Humble Servant, Walt Henderson (aka. The Large Cabinetmaker) -------------------------------------------- HENDERSON & VINCI Historical Cabinetmakers & Joyners 205 Birch Street, N.E. Leesburg, Virginia 20176-4521 (703)777-3923 fax (703)777-9507 Cabinet & Traveling Goods "Funerals Perform'd At the Shortest Notice" Member EAIA-MESDA-MWTCA-PATINA -------------------------------------------- > -----Original Message----- > From: Patrick Olguin [mailto:paddyolguin@y...] > Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 12:27 PM > To: oldtools > Subject: Re: [oldtools] Hand cut dovetail question > > SNIP ---- Start of Message 127674 ---- From: Scott Murman Date: 2004-01-17 10:00:02 Subject: Re: Wooden Screws, and Thanks > It's OK as a 1 stop reference, but it has (IMHO) no > new material. > > http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > get.phtml?message_id=113207#message completely agree - it was pretty disappointing, though it is pretty cheap, so maybe you get what you pay for? -SM- RWC, CA ---- Start of Message 127675 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-01-17 19:17:46 Subject: WTB No. 67 parts Got lucky at the flea market and scored a 67 in nice shape with the curved sole. Does any one have the flat sole and or fence to sell or trade? I've checked the archive with no luck so has any one come up with a substitute for the fence? Don't want to reinvent the wheel if I don't have to. Steve ---- Start of Message 127676 ---- From: Timothy Collins Date: 2004-01-17 15:23:49 Subject: frame saw proportions I need a few recommendations for proportions on a frame saw. I'm not copying an old one, so I can't measure. I've made one with 10 inch frame and 11 inch blade, and it doesn't look quite right. (used old 6 TPI bandsaw blade) I'm getting ready to make 4 as gifts, and have 27 inch (potentially) long blades (the cheep wood craft frame saw blade). I would like to make the blade about 15 inches long, so how tall should the frame ends be? thanks tim ---- Start of Message 127677 ---- From: "Andrew Fairbank" Date: 2004-01-17 20:38:36 Subject: RE: Wooden Screws, and Thanks RE: Thread boxes Richard said: I foresee making a box, cutting a thread through it with the : tap, then installing a cutter, which I suppose goes in some sort of : seat, then using my new screw box to make lots more threads. Then Jeff said: If I understand this correctly, the snag will be that the workpiece will see a hole having the core diameter of the thread whereas its own diameter will be the overall diameter. Hence it will not fit. I'm using one at the moment (In the middle of putting 6' of wooden thread into 1 1/2" screws). Jeff is right, but the way that the shaft is guided into the die is with a circular hole drilled to the OD of the shaft, aligned with the centre of the die. This keeps it on-centre as the cutter works. When the cutter blunts, it's a pain to resharpen and then reinstall correctly - you can waste a fair bit of work getting the cutter reset - others recommend realigning the cutter with a piece of work that's already been threaded - would still be fiddly, but maybe a bit less so. Cheers, Andrew ---- Start of Message 127678 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-01-17 15:54:01 Subject: Re: frame saw proportions > I need a few recommendations for proportions on a frame saw. I'm > not copying an old one, so I can't measure. I've just recently grabbed dimensions from the galoot websites I know. Smallest one was 18x24 while most were 20-21 x 26. I believe it was Chris that points out that wider provides stability but I think anything in that range will work. > I've made one with 10 inch frame and 11 inch blade, and it > doesn't look quite right. (used old 6 TPI bandsaw blade) This is a LOT smaller. The blade on mine is 25" and wish I'd cut it 26". I also wish I'd made the saw a bit smaller (went with the larger size in the range above). > I would like to make the blade about 15 inches long, so how tall > should the frame ends be? It would seem that if you'd just use the ratios outlined above you wouldn't go too far wrong. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 127679 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-17 16:20:39 Subject: Cleaning old planes Hello esteemed Galoots, There has been recent discussion here about getting started with handplanes. I know this subject has been dealt with in the archives, galoot websites, books and videos, but I'd like to add my two cents as my experiences are still fresh. While I've improved my techniches, I still have room for further improvement and welcome all to join in and share on points where you have used other methods to good success. Corrections for bad technique are also welcomed on list. I'd like to start by saying that the new makers like Clifton and Lie-Nielsen make excellent planes, but they two need fettling. This can be very intimidating if you've never tuned a plane before. Also a fettled Stanley, will cost much less, and perform (IMHO) just as well, if not better than any of these modern makers, and they also have something these other makers can't offer. Maybe it's the aged rosewood tote and knob, patina, or the feeling one gets when holding a piece of history that inspires, but I digress. Let's get right to the meat and potatoes. Patience is key here. If I knew then what I know now, I would have saved myself much time and money. There is an abundance of old tools out there, so wait for the right vintage, in good condition or better, for the right price. So what is the right vintage? Everyone has their own personal preference. Any Bailey from type 2 to type 17 or even to 19 (except for types 3 and 5) should make a good user. What is good condition? Experience is key here, and I won't bog down on this point and only say - In time you will know how to spot the planes that will clean up and work perfectly with little time and expense. This Stanley #4 type 11, was a rusty/dirty/greasy/paint splatterd mess, with a broken tote. It took two hours to clean and fettle and cost me a total of $37. (almost gloatable, but then I am still learning) http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=254 My first Stanley bench plane, a #6 of sweetheart vintage, was in the same condition. It cost me $45, took me 20 hours to overclean and fettle, and it still wouldn't take a shaving. Discouraged, I put it on the shelf for a couple of months. After finding the porch, and some new courage, I gave it another crack, and it's now a favorite (favourite Jeff). These are the steps I take in cleaning: I completely dissasemble the plane and let all the parts soak in mineral spirits (except for the tote and knob) while I clean the body. I use fine steel wool, a brass bristle brush for tight spots, and Q-tips for threaded holes. I don't go crazy on the sole, because I will lap it later. If there are any areas of heavy rust on the sole or sides, I scrape it (locally) with a razor blade, and LIGHTLY touch-up with 320 grit sandpaper lubricated with WD-40. I spray WD-40 in all the threaded holes, wipe down with a soft rag and move on to the screws. I clean all the threads with a wire brush, and if they are ragged at the head, I lightly sand off the ridges. Next step is cleaning the frog. I use the steel wool, brass brush and Q-tips again, wipe down and install the depth adjustment knob, lever cap screw, and the throat adjustment screw and attach to the body. I repeat the same steps for the iron, cap iron, and lever cap, and then the knob and tote. The main thing I'd like to stress is that I don't go crazy. I rub gently with steel wool. If I run into heavy rust or paint splatters, I scrape it off with a razor blade or chisel. I go back to steel wool, and then 320 grit sandpaper in isolated spots. If you go lightly with the sandpaper, it wil still leave a nice patina. For the softer lever cap, iron, and cap iron, I'll go up to 600 grit so I don't leave scratches. Time to tune up. This is getting really long and the kids are restless, so so long for now. I hope somebody more knowlegable than me picks it up from here. If this is off charter, please give me a gentle nudge off list, and my appologies. I think all might benefit from some exchange of ideas on this subject. I for one would like to hear more about the differences/preferences of Stanley types 2 through 17. Regards Jonathan Peck ---- Start of Message 127680 ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-01-17 16:35:28 Subject: RE: Hand cut dovetail question Walt & Mary Henderson wrote: > I think that a few of the most important aspects of hand cutting >dovetails (the only way to do it!) is first to find a knowledgeable >teacher. Can I get a "Ditto!" somebody! > Years ago I used "Tage Fried" as my instructor. I found his >books "Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking" excellent learning guides. He >shows many different ways to perform a given task. I would also recommend Jim Kingshott's video on the topic. Books are, of course, wonderful. But --certainly speaking for myself-- there's no substitute for *seeing* it done by a master. N ---- Start of Message 127681 ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 2004-01-17 17:58:55 Subject: RE: Still More on Glue Galoots, I do believe Andrew speaks factually when he says, "Epoxy is one of the few glues that needs a MINIMUM glue line thickness to bond successfully - approx 1/2mm or 20 thou is needed.....Unfortunately this ends up as a big black line running through a job, so on tote repairs, the epoxy glue line is squished" But, I also suggest that one can mitigate the thick glue line on a tote by not plane'ing the two surfaces. I leave the rosewood surfaces rough - cleaned to drive out tropical oils with acetone - and sometimes I gouge them slightly to ensure an uneven surface. That way, I can apply more glue on teh inside surfaces, less on the outside, get some edge glued surfaces and still have a thin glue line once assembled. Do I need to re-mention that I use Garrett Wade's Gap Filling Epoxy? Maybe someone could tell us if the high level of "solids" in it also mitgate epoxy's penchant for breaking? Karl ---- Start of Message 127682 ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-01-17 17:01:54 Subject: Butternut/chestnut Last fall a fellow gave me about 8 roughsawn boards that had been in his family's barn "forever". They are a bit irregular on the thickness , ranging from 4/4 to 5/4 so I suspect an older sawmill. They were definitely sawn with a circular saw, and not a very precision one. I just surfaced one (amazing how comfortable 30 degrees is when you are slinging a #8. I took off my sweatshirt). Now I am wondering what I have. The choice is narrowed down in my mind to either butternut or chestnut. It seems a bit coarse in grain for butternut, but a bit fine for chestnut, and the pores are darkish, which I associate with chestnut. Anybody know an easy test like odor ? I'll find out for sure on Tueday, but that's a whole 3 days away. John Lederer Oregon, Wisconsin ---- Start of Message 127683 ---- From: "Andrew Fairbank" Date: 2004-01-17 23:08:24 Subject: RE: Still More on Glue Hi Karl/All, My first degree was B.Eng (Materials) Hons - I mainly worked in steel and cement industry, but came across epoxy in repairs at times. The numbers I quote are from memory, but this was the approx thickness of the glueline required. My resource books are packed away in cartons (my trade is cabinetmaking and I teach this now). I can get a more precise answer if desired, but the numbers I quoted are there within 20%. The way you do the totes is a good way around the glue line thickness issue, Karl. Cheers, Andrew Karl said ... I do believe Andrew speaks factually when he says, "Epoxy is one of the few glues that needs a MINIMUM glue line thickness to bond successfully - approx 1/2mm or 20 thou is needed..... Karl said ...tote repairs, .... not plane'ing the two surfaces. I leave the rosewood surfaces rough ....... sometimes I gouge them slightly to ensure an uneven surface....apply more glue on the inside surfaces, less on the outside, get some edge glued surfaces and still have a thin glue line once assembled. ---- Start of Message 127684 ---- From: "Tim O'Hearn" Date: 2004-01-17 23:59:07 Subject: re: WTB No. 67 parts St. James Bay has a replacement fence for the 67. ---- Start of Message 127685 ---- From: Joe Macak Date: 2004-01-17 16:39:41 Subject: Re: Cleaning old planes Hi Jonathon I can understand why a type 3 Bailey is not a good user, having the experimental fixed frog, and being more of a collector's curiosity, but what is the deal with the type 5, the type where the first lateral appeared? I have a couple of these type 5s and can see no problems with them. I prefer pre-lateral adjust planes, but the type 5s work just fine for me. What's up? cheers joe in sometimes raining seattle On Sat, Jan 17, 2004 at 04:20:39PM -0500, Jonathan Peck wrote: > Everyone has their own personal preference. Any Bailey from type 2 to type > 17 or even to 19 (except for types 3 and 5) should make a good user. What ---- Start of Message 127686 ---- From: "Steve Brackett" Date: 2004-01-18 01:03:01 Subject: Reading a Board Rule Today at Spicers Auction I was lucky enough to win a Haselton (Contooccok, NH) 24" board rule. I bought it because it is a New Hampshire made tool (and a handsome one at that). Course as soon as it was in my hands curiosity took over and I began to try to unravel the maze of numbers on the rule. Throughout the day it seemed that everyone that admired my new treasure also wanted to know how to read it.... sooo.. although I have to imagine that a large number of the galooterati already possess this wisdom, for us mere mortals, here's how it works (yup.. I figured out!). My rule is 24" long and is calibrated to read the number of board feet in boards 1" thick and any length from 3 to 20 feet long. There are 18 rows of numbers running lengthwise along the rule. The rows are numbered in sequence from 3 to 20 (one for each lenght of board). To directly read the number of board feet in a 1" thick board you: 1) lay the rule against the butt end of the board as you would if you were measuring the width with a convential rule. 2) if your board is 8 feet long you read the number of board feet directly off the rule by reading the number in row 8 at the point on the rule where the right hand side of the board is reached (the rule reads from zero on the left and increases to the right). If your board is 8 feet long, 1" thick and 1.5" (or 1/8 of a foot) you have 1 board foot. Amazingly, on the board rule, in row 8, 1.5" from the left hand edge is a nice big 1 (indicating 1 board foor). At 3" (or 2/8 of a foot) there is a 2 and so on and so on. So, there is my OT content for the first quarter of the year ! (you can't expect much OT content from a geologist.. we buy the tools cuz they are pretty!) Great to see everybody today..and a belated Happy New Years to the Porch. Steve in Keene (lookin hard for more New Hampshire tools) ---- Start of Message 127687 ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 2004-01-17 17:36:40 Subject: Re: Cleaning old planes --- Jonathan Peck wrote: [text cleaned and fettled] >From the archive - http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_id- =33796&submit_thread=1#message After cleaning, well, hundreds of metal planes, the hot soapy bath in dish detergent (or trip through the dishwasher) is still my preferred method for all but the most rusted-out items. No caustic chemicals, and with judicious use of a hair dryer, you can reassemble the tool pretty much as soon is it's cool enough to touch. A nice bonus of handling a warm tool is that waxing, especially if you're using a super-hard almost impossible to polish-out wax like shellac/carnuba wax (that stuff that ruined your elbow, Mr. Claspy), is a breeze. Oh yeah - and I really dig the type 10/11's too. Type 6/7's have the pinky-crunching tote, although I do like the thinner castings merely for their bonerficitousness (tm Me). Paddy - in partly cloudy Pasadena, Colliefoneyah (our governor's pronunciation, everyone) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127688 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-17 19:46:53 Subject: Re: Pliers type Saw Set So is that kind rare or hard to find, and what might be a ballpark price for a 42X? I will keep my eye out for that second piston in a saw set. Are most of those clearly marked 42X right on the casted body? Does that second piston have any tendency to wear out and how could I check it? With the kind that don't have that second piston what becomes the main issue/frustration with them? Do you get uneven set? Is there readjustment needed for different thicknesses of blades? To repeat my earlier question, though, is a typical pliers type sawset fine for both rip and crosscut? Will I be able to do the 15ppi of my dovetail saw or is that pushing one tool to do to much? I don't doubt there is an ideal tool, there usually is for every job, but I just want something that works. At this point I'm about ready to chuck a metal cutting blade in the s*bre s*w and sacrafice a few electrons making a simple saw set, the kind where a slot hooks over the tooth and is bent down. I have seen these made from metal scraps laying around the shop and I've got buckets of various sizes of just such metal scraps of all thicknesses and sizes. I know I probably wouldn't get real consistent sets but I have seen them every so lightly jointed on the edge on Roy's show, speaking of which I missed today because I was reading here today. I could kick myself for that one! I never miss him! Even had the VCR set but didn't have it shut off. > [Original Message] > From: Jim Thompson > To: John Sawchak > Cc: oldtools > Date: 1/17/2004 10:25:47 AM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] Pliers type Saw Set > > What you want is a Stanley 42X sawset. The others are all pretty much > the same. The 42X has a second piston which holds the blade tight > while the other piston sets the tooth. All this in one squeeze of the > handle. I love mine. I have 3 others that I don't use at all. > > On Saturday, January 17, 2004, at 07:07 AM, John Sawchak wrote: > > > Fellow galoots, > > > > I have done saw sharpening but more of the quick and dirty > > variety than the whole process. A number of times now I have come > > across > > pliers type saw sets for a buck or a quarter and what I want to know is > > will one set work for both crosscut and rip saws? What are a few > > features > > for a novice to complete saw sharpening to look for and what features > > should I avoid like the plague? I really want to give this a try. > > > > Thank you very much for any and all help! > > > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 127689 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-17 20:14:48 Subject: RE: rambling saw maint./ restor. questions I went to that site but did not find anything marked instruction. You mean in Letters or Articles? Or did you act like you were going to buy a saw and the instruction was on a page after that? > [Original Message] > From: Andy Wilkins > To: oldtools > Date: 1/15/2004 5:01:53 PM > Subject: RE:[oldtools] rambling saw maint./ restor. questions > > Hi, > > I just want to add to ken's excellent reply - if you're starting > to learn to sharpen, start on a typical rip or cross-cut (6,7,8,9 pt). > It's hard to see what you're doing on a dovetail saw. > > A nice, short, pictorial introduction to saw jointing can be found > at > http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&page=32631 > by clicking on "Instr" down the bottom of the page. > > a > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 127690 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-17 21:27:02 Subject: Re: Cleaning old planes >Hi Jonathon snipped as per FAQ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cheers Hi Joe, Other than this being Stanley's first shot at the lateral adjuster, not introducing the two piece adjuster with the circular disk until type 6, I think the type 5's are pretty much perfect, as with all early types, excepting possibly the weird frog design of the type 3's. Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 127691 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-17 20:30:58 Subject: Re: rambling saw maint./ restor. questions Ditto what he said, particularly the points towards repitition. Filing same number of times per tooth and such. Most important is consistency of the angle. If you have trouble managing this I reccomend starting on a chainsaw actually because they are far more difficult to sharpen. There are two edges being sharpened with every file stroke. The side of the tooth and the top of the tooth. If you can do even a half way decent job on that a handsaw is a cakewalk afterward. Plus since a chainsaw blade has that top tooth it gets you aware of something that is important with the handsaw where that tooth is not present and that is keeping the file perpedicular to the plane of the blade. If that doesn't make sense just imagine this. Imagine if the back of the saw were set on a flat surface. Your file angle should mimic that flat surface angle and with the rigors of filing it is very easy to do a rocking motion than a good saw tooth filing motion which is why I say try a chainsaw blade first. That top tooth will get you aware of this and get your muscles in practice of learning to file the way that is chainsaw friendly and ultimately handsaw friendly. I think this is why I have had such an easy time sharpening a handsaw. I don't want to brag but I felt very natural doing it but I did spend a year out in a big old 1800s house with only wood as fuel. And those places weren't insulated. I also ended up doing more sharpening because I cut a lot of trees already downed by bulldozers and that meant lots of sand and sand meant my edge wore away quickly so I got loads of "practice" at sharpening. Well, its my two cents. It's how I learned. > [Original Message] > From: Ken Greenberg > To: oldtools > Date: 1/15/2004 2:59:53 PM > Subject: Re:[oldtools] rambling saw maint./ restor. questions > > On 15 Jan 2004 at 6:38, pedger66@j... wrote: > > > I've been having trouble teaching myself how to sharpen saws. I keep > > getting "cows and calves". Can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong? > > (Besides trying to sharpen my own saws). > > The first thing needed here is a little analysis. Does Phil really have > mad cows and confused calfs, what is he observing, and what can > cause it? > > Phil probably figured this out, but an obvious point may be of help to > others. The first time you sharpen a crosscut saw, your reaction is > probably something like "Oh no! All the teeth I sharpened on this > side are much smaller than the others!" Well, no, they are not, but it > never hurts to scare yourself a bit if it makes you think. Every other > tooth will have a bevel on leading and trailing edges that are facing > you. The in-between teeth are just flat because the bevels are on > the other side. The teeth with the bevels facing you will look much > smaller to you since they reflect light differently, but they are > probably OK. It's mostly an optical illusion - what your mind thinks > it's seeing as opposed to what's really there. > > Now, the next question is what kind of pattern are you seeing. If > every other tooth really is larger then its neighbor, then it is likely to > be something like what Scott alluded to - that you are not filing with > the exact same stroke when going from one side as you used on the > other. This is largely a matter of practice and learning how much to > take off (see below for further discussion). If the pattern is more > random than that, it's probably still a matter of how much metal is > being removed, but it's not so much about what direction you are > filing from as that you may be applying more pressure on some > teeth than on others, or you are not holding the file consistently at > the same relationship to the tooth as you move from one end of the > saw to the other. > > That out of the way, lets move on to saw jointing. Breasted saws > aside, the tips of the teeth are your "reference face" in saw > sharpening, so it's a good idea to make sure you start with them all > lined up. I am in the habit of taking a light pass over the tips with the > jointing fixture (just a piece of 2 x 4 with a file in it) every time I > sharpen. If I am working on a rescue project from a garage sale, I > am likely to be more serious about it the first time I sharpen the saw. > It's good practice with an unknown or suspect saw to check the > linearity of the teeth with a straight edge and joint as appropriate. > Extra caution wastes no more than a minute, which is a lot less time > than filing a saw and finding you have to start over because you > have a bad reference. > > How much you sharpen every tooth has much to do with the > condition of the saw when you begin. If I have done a good job on a > saw and am simply touching it up, I find I can get by with something > like "give every tooth two strokes" because (1) I know the teeth were > pretty even to begin with, and (2) I'm pretty consistent with the > amount of metal I take off with each stroke. But if you are starting > from a saw that is clearly in bad shape, all bets are off. There's no > way you can get away with this approach, because every tooth will > need a different amount of metal removed. > > Remember that the tip is your reference. You want to remove metal > until the bevel just reaches the tip of the tooth. If you do this and can > keep a consistent angle (with jigs, or guide blocks and practice), > then the bottom of the gullets will tend to take care of themselves. > After all, you are using the same file on every tooth and moving it at > the same angle. The tips line up because you jointed first, so if you > file just until the bevel reaches the tip of the tooth, there's no reason > why the gullets should not line up as well. > > Pressure is usually firm - you don't want the saw file skipping over > the surface as it will do with no pressure at all, and you don't want to > bear down on it. Normally I am pushing straight down, but to clean > up a badly sized or shaped tooth, I will sometimes apply slight > pressure on the file toward ("into") the tooth. Not much, because you > really should be depending on the file geometry to make the teeth > come out even, but if you are starting from a basket case, you do > what needs to be done. Just take it easy. > > I tend to just sharpen the saws without any visual aids other than > good light, but some contrast helps in determining where you are in > the metal removal process. It's more obvious on a dirty, rusty saw > since the bright metal looks very different from the "pre-sharpened" > state. This can be artificially achieved by darkening the teeth. I have > not used it, but sight black (sold at gun stores) is supposed to be a > good method for this. As my eyes continue to deteriorate over time, I > suspect I'll get there one of these days. > > -Ken > > Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) > 667 Brush Creek Road, Santa Rosa, CA 95404 > woodworking page: http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm > Visit the oldtools booklist at > http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 127692 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-01-17 21:53:09 Subject: Re: Pliers type Saw Set > So is that kind rare or hard to find, and what might be a ballpark > price for a 42X? John/GG's, This #42x sold yesterday at *b#y: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4123&item=326620- 7981&ssPageName=STRK:MEBDW:IT The #42x is marked 42x, and comes up quite often on this site. This one was a little cheaper than most. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, Massachusetts ---- Start of Message 127693 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-01-17 22:01:32 Subject: Re: Pliers type Saw Set (snip - John has lots of questions about saw sets) First, the 42X is the most popular Galoot choice - but a saw can be set with other saw sets so start with what you have. Just keep your eyes open... The clamping mechanism just makes it easier to make sure you hit the tooth cleanly as it holds the set in place while you apply the pressure. I am not sure about price as I passed on the only one I ever saw which was $28 in an over priced antique store (but I am REALLY cheap about stuff like this). My recollection is that is was clearly marked 42 with an X after it - but don't get fooled because there are a lot more plain Stanley 42 (with no X) saw sets in the world. Check the mechanism. Along with some others, I have a Disston Triumph saw set that I haven't used too much use (yet), but, it also has a second piston to hold the blade (call it the Disston piston - couldn't let that pass by). One difference is it is more the "pliers" type as the 42X is the "pistol type" (and I only paid $3 for it). The best place to go for info is Pete Taran's site (www.vintagesaws.com). There is a write-up on setting a saw in the "Library section." Also, he has the directions for the Stanley 42X there as well (at the very bottom). That said, the short answers to some of your questions are: (1) you can use the same set for cross-cut and rip. (2) 15ppi gets trickier - that depends (I think) somewhat on the size of the plunger and maybe the distance to the anvil (for just slight sets). Although I think some sets could be "tuned" for it by filing the plunger a little (never did this - someone jump in if I am way off base). There was a discussion about this very recently (during which the 42X was crowned the king of saw sets). And, since I just recently acquired it (and have seeeeeen the light) - if you don't have Tom Law's saw sharpening video...it is worth the investment. Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 127694 ---- From: T&J Holloway Date: 2004-01-17 19:05:15 Subject: Re: frame saw proportions On Saturday, January 17, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Timothy Collins wrote: > I would like to make the blade about 15 inches long, so how tall > should the > frame ends be? When I saw "frame saw," at first I was thinking frame resaw, the type with the blade in middle, stretchers on sides, for resawing slices off of larger pieces of timber. Blade length of 15" seemed a little short for such a device. Reference to "tallness" of frame ends, combined with desired blade length, changes the picture in my mind to "bow saw." In any case, the answer is: The Golden Mean. Divide 15" by 1.618, and you get 9.27. For visual proportions of a bow saw, a 15" blade would probably result in outside length of 18" or so. Divide that by the Golden Mean, and you get a frame end height of something just over 11 inches. Try that for pleasing and functional proportions. Tom Holloway, hoping this doesn't start a "DaVinci Code" thread, and wishing Galoots who are writing about Old/Hand Tools, their acquisition, maintenance, and use, would quit asking rhetorically if it is "on charter." That IS the charter. ---- Start of Message 127695 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-17 19:01:39 Subject: Re: Pliers type Saw Set I see them from time to time on ebay selling in the $20 to $30 range depending on condition. I recently saw one go for $6 because of some rust. The 42X mark is on the inside of one of the 2 handles. It is a typical pliers type. I am not really qualified to comment on longevity and utility compared to others as I have only used mine once. I just followed the advice of the porch when the discussion was going on a short while ago. It does seem capable of very delicate sets. On Saturday, January 17, 2004, at 05:46 PM, John Sawchak wrote: > So is that kind rare or hard to find, and what might be a ballpark > price > for a 42X? I will keep my eye out for that second piston in a saw set. > Are > most of those clearly marked 42X right on the casted body? Does that > second > piston have any tendency to wear out and how could I check it? With the > kind that don't have that second piston what becomes the main > issue/frustration with them? Do you get uneven set? Is there > readjustment > needed for different thicknesses of blades? > > To repeat my earlier question, though, is a typical pliers type sawset > fine > for both rip and crosscut? Will I be able to do the 15ppi of my > dovetail > saw or is that pushing one tool to do to much? > > I don't doubt there is an ideal tool, there usually is for every job, > but I > just want something that works. At this point I'm about ready to chuck > a > metal cutting blade in the s*bre s*w and sacrafice a few electrons > making a > simple saw set, the kind where a slot hooks over the tooth and is bent > down. I have seen these made from metal scraps laying around the shop > and > I've got buckets of various sizes of just such metal scraps of all > thicknesses and sizes. I know I probably wouldn't get real consistent > sets > but I have seen them every so lightly jointed on the edge on Roy's > show, > speaking of which I missed today because I was reading here today. I > could > kick myself for that one! I never miss him! Even had the VCR set but > didn't > have it shut off. > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Jim Thompson >> To: John Sawchak >> Cc: oldtools >> Date: 1/17/2004 10:25:47 AM >> Subject: Re: [oldtools] Pliers type Saw Set >> >> What you want is a Stanley 42X sawset. The others are all pretty much >> the same. The 42X has a second piston which holds the blade tight >> while the other piston sets the tooth. All this in one squeeze of the >> handle. I love mine. I have 3 others that I don't use at all. >> >> On Saturday, January 17, 2004, at 07:07 AM, John Sawchak wrote: >> >>> Fellow galoots, >>> >>> I have done saw sharpening but more of the quick and >>> dirty >>> variety than the whole process. A number of times now I have come >>> across >>> pliers type saw sets for a buck or a quarter and what I want to know >>> is >>> will one set work for both crosscut and rip saws? What are a few >>> features >>> for a novice to complete saw sharpening to look for and what features >>> should I avoid like the plague? I really want to give this a try. >>> >>> Thank you very much for any and all help! >>> >> Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 127696 ---- From: "Mike Guenther" Date: 2004-01-18 03:39:02 Subject: Re: Pliers type Saw Set I've got 2 saw sets, both of which have no visible maker's mark. One of them looks like it would be used for the old timey two man saws, and the other one has an adjustable anvil...anywhere from 5 tpi tp 15 tpi. You just turn the anvil until it lines up with the correct tpi for the saw you're setting. Mike Guenther in the foothills of S. Carolina ---- Start of Message 127697 ---- From: "The Davis Family" Date: 2004-01-17 22:55:53 Subject: RE: Still More on Glue Karl said, >I leave the rosewood surfaces rough - >cleaned to drive out tropical oils with acetone - and sometimes I gouge >them slightly to ensure an uneven surface. Seems like a toothing scraper blade or some checkering tools might be useful as long as the edges of the wood could be protected. A blade with a slightly rounded edge might do the trick. This post started when I mentioned my epoxy joint failed. Before the advice came in, I used gorilla glue on the replaned surfaces and banged the repair sharply on the bench the next day. Seems to have held. When the next one comes along, I'll scrape it after cleaning up the surfaces with a plane. John ---- Start of Message 127698 ---- From: "Mike Guenther" Date: 2004-01-18 03:43:03 Subject: Minor gloat Went to the local auction tonight. Hadn't planned on buying anything until I saw a table of vintage tools go up for sale. I passed on an older Craftsman combo square. It was in decent shape, but was missing the scribe. The square I did buy, however, is an ancient try square. I could only make out part of the patent date on it. Something 25, 1874. The blade is 8 inches to the body, which is cast steel and it looks like the three pins holding the blade to the body have lead poured around them. It's in pretty decent shape. With some minor cleaning, should be able to read the inch markings on the blade. A few paint splatters, ect., but minimal rust. I don't think I got took too bad. Paid 3 bucks for it plus also got an old nut splitter. Mike Guenther in the foothills of S. Carolina ---- Start of Message 127699 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-17 23:06:33 Subject: Re: frame saw proportions >Tom Holloway wished>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoping this doesn't start a >"DaVinci Code" thread, and wishing Galoots who are writing about >Old/Hand Tools, their acquisition, maintenance, and use, would quit >asking rhetorically if it is "on charter." That IS the charter. Hi Tom, I'm glad that you brought this up, because after reading the charter, I'm still confused. http://www.brendlers.net/oldtools/charter.html I've been listeneing to what others have had to say, and quite frankly I don't know which way is up anymore. I was inspired by what Christopher Swingly had to say, but I am trying to tread caustiously, as there are obviously different schools of thought at work here. Perhaps I'll just keep my head down for awhile until the dust clears Respectfully Jonathan Peck ---- Start of Message 127700 ---- From: "Bret Rochotte" Date: 2004-01-17 23:30:05 Subject: OT- need windows Guru Help!!! I have been fighting this computer for a couple months and I need help! Its Win 98, running slow and locking-up frequently. I have been able to get it going but I'm wasting alot of time with it and would prefer a permanent fix. I know...buy a Mac. I would if I had the spare cash. If someone out there would be so kind as to reply off list and help I would be very greatful. Thanks, Bret Bret and Wendy Rochotte New Bremen, Ohio rochotte@b... ---- Start of Message 127701 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-01-18 09:13:52 Subject: RE: Cleaning old planes : -----Original Message----- : From: Jonathan Peck [mailto:jpeck@m...] : Sent: 17 January 2004 21:21 : To: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] Cleaning old planes : : Time to tune up. : This is getting really long and the kids are restless, so so : long for now. I : hope somebody more knowlegable than me picks it up from here. Responding to the cue: please take a look at my web site - 'Planing Notes' - starting at 'Fettling A Cast Iron Plane'. : If this is off charter, How could it be? Why does Jonathan feel the need to say this? Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 127702 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-01-18 09:13:53 Subject: RE: Hand cut dovetail question : -----Original Message----- : From: Steve from Kokomo [mailto:stjones@k...] : Sent: 17 January 2004 13:43 : To: oldtools : Cc: oldtools@c... : Subject: Re: [oldtools] Hand cut dovetail question : : : GGs; : : If this ground's been covered before, please accept my : apologies. After : taking the time to study the disagrams here : : > http://www.wood-workers.com/users/charlieb/DovetailDrawer12.html : : I think I get it. Belatedly, I think there are a couple of points perhaps worth comment. Firstly, Charlie B appears to start with a stabbed chop with the edge directly in the line. The wedging action of the bevel will drive the chisel towards the body of the workpiece and take the shoulder behind the line. The rest of the procedure for removing the waste is a commonly recommended approach designed to avoid end-grain breakout at the final blow (from the reverse side of the workpiece). My experience is that this does not work, one still gets some breakout, though this fiddly approach does reduce its extent. Does the breakout matter? After all, end grain does not glue at all well. It only really matters if the innards of the joint are somehow revealed either by sawing through it (when forming a box lid) or by planing to taper the sides, for example or form them for decorative purposes, eg introducing a decorative fielding. Of course some of us do not like the idea even of hidden 'faults' in our work and for our own moral welfare, prefer to make a virtue of fastidiousness. On my web site two approaches are illustrated - 'Dovetailing Detailed' - 'A Practice Dovetail Joint' et seq. including waste removal with a coping saw followed by cross-grain paring. Secondly; 'Advice For Choppers' - Direct chopping, starting away from the shoulder lines. In connection with this brutal but effective tradesman's approach there's some advice about a possible pitfall arising from end-grain breakout. Hoping this helps, Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 127703 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-01-18 09:13:54 Subject: RE: Rodriguez at Woodcraft - recap; : -----Original Message----- : From: Scott Post [mailto:sepost@i...] : Sent: 17 January 2004 11:16 : To: oldtools : Subject: Re:[oldtools] Rodriguez at Woodcraft - recap; : : For cooperative woods, I agree. But when the wood is taking a spit : in your face attitude the high angle completes what I've found to be : the necessary triumvirate: tight mouth, solid bedding, and high angle. Can I venture an addition? Lots of downwards pressure. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 127704 ---- From: gary may (by way of John R. Wilson) Date: 2004-01-18 05:38:52 Subject: Re: Triple Patent date Stanley Plane worship Gary wrote; " Great minds will always disagree, I ain't saying otherwise, but there are heresies---Shemp is funnier than Curly; Jack Daniels is bourbon; Cannibal Corpse outrocks Killdozer, people can believe anything, it turns out." Wait just a dadgum minute there hey - out rocks Killdozer? Great post Gary, does this mean that someday I will be able to trade my type 11 #4.5 (low knob triple date smoother Jeff) for one of your #4.5 heavy Stanley planes? I am still searching for a type 11 #2 fine condition smoother. Does anyone know if Stanley produced many of these smaller type 11s? Chris wrote---- > The type 11 Stanley model is recognized by many as superior. The > three patent dates is an indicator of it's 'type'. It's what I > prefer to own and use. I would trade any plane in my meager pile - o - planes for same size fine type 11 planes (low knob). Might keep my type 3 #8 mint though ;-) A transitional is still junk even with that revered low knob, eh.., right? -Rex Wishing i had a #41(pretty plow plane Jeff) ---- Start of Message 127705 ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-01-18 06:34:05 Subject: Bio Information from a newbie >John said; > >Well, all, like I said, nice to meet you, and if anyone has some old >tools just lying about with nothing better to do.....I have lots of >nice, warm, dry and EMPTY shelves they can call home. Welcome friend, check out; www.supertool.com/stanleyBG/stanO.htm you will fill those shelves. -Rex ---- Start of Message 127706 ---- From: "Steve from Kokomo" Date: 2004-01-18 07:55:19 Subject: Re: frame saw proportions Jonathan Peck said: > I'm glad that you brought this up, because after reading the charter, > I'm still confused. http://www.brendlers.net/oldtools/charter.html > I've been listeneing to what others have had to say, and quite frankly I > don't know which way is up anymore. Seems to me there are two key parts to the charter: the subject area is "history, usage, value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of traditional woodworking tools". If "usage" doesn't include techiques, I don't know what it means. The rest are pretty self-explanatory and obviously include LN, LV, Clifton, Shepherd, Anant, and even modern Stanley and Craftsman traditional tools (if they still sell any). The other part is the intent to provide a "light-hearted, fun, jolly, happy, informative forum to discuss" these things. So I say enough self-examination already, let's talk about "traditional woodworking tools" and what we do with 'em. Or we could endlessly parse the phrase "traditional woodworking tools" - does it refer to tools for doing traditional woodworking or does it refer to woodworking tools that are traditional? If there's a difference I vote for the former. -- Steve - another Kokomo galoot ---- Start of Message 127707 ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-01-18 07:17:46 Subject: Fwd: re: [oldtools] Triple Patent date Stanley Plane worship GG Please enlighten me - When was the heavy casting done by Stanley. Why did they do it (as if anyone could know why Stanley did anything) and what type are these monsters?. Did Stanley make all bench planes with the heavy castings or just the #4.5 ? Not collecting ... honest,... just curious ;-) -Rex ---- Start of Message 127708 ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-01-18 05:25:32 Subject: Re: Pliers type Saw Set I'm wondering if Stanley sold a Handyman version of this? I'm asking because I ran across a saw set just like a 42x but it wasn't as heavy a metal and it wasn't marked in the casting. It did have just the remains of a Stanley decal which looked kind of like the couple of Handyman decals I've seen. It was only partial, just enough to tell that it used to say Stanley on it. Just curious if anyone else has run into these and if they will work as well as the regular 42x? AAAndrew Supposed to be 60 and raining today in Durham, North Carolina. (those still back in Michigan understand the drive-by gloat inlcuded in that phrase) --- Alan Perreault wrote: > > This #42x sold yesterday at *b#y: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4123&item=326620- 7981&ssPageName=STRK:MEBDW:IT > > The #42x is marked 42x, and comes up quite often on this site. This > one was a little cheaper than most. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127709 ---- From: pedger66@j... Date: 2004-01-18 08:58:42 Subject: Re: gluing totes Galoots, I glue a lot of totes and I have come down to urethane glue, mostly. I don't bother precleaning with solvent any more. I do rough up the surface by pricking it with a knife point. Hardly ever a failure now. The main reason I like urethane (Gorilla is only one brand. I heard they're all made by the same chemical co.) is that the squeeze out scrapes off easily, and it's somewhat cheaper than epoxy. (That's not counting the green WWII army surplus camouflage epoxy bought in the 55 gallon drum size by Scott, or whoever it was. ). If I have a difficult orientation of the pieces I use 5 min. epoxy and hold it in place with my paws. Phil E. ---- Start of Message 127710 ---- From: pedger66@j... Date: 2004-01-18 09:02:46 Subject: Re: butternut/chestnut Hi, John L. and other Galoots, John, it's hard to tell from your description, but chestnut is a lot lighter in weight than the others. Butternut is heavy and hard, almost like hickory. Phil E. ---- Start of Message 127711 ---- From: pedger66@j... Date: 2004-01-18 09:23:57 Subject: Re: Content -absence of- and scythe lessons Galoots, I also have a bit of experience with a scythe. It was used a lot by the old folks here in the mountains when I first moved here in 1974. It has been almost totally supplanted by the gas operated, polluting, earsplitting string trimmer. I still use my scythe to mow my 2 acre meadow at the "retreat". There is a wide flat "grass blade" and a more common combination blade that is narrower and thicker so it is less likely to break when hitting small brush and briars. The scythe has to be razor sharp to work properly. The proper method of sharpening is to do mostly the upper side (as seen when you are in mowing stance) of the blade and with a swipe every now and then on the lower side to remove the wire edge. I know in some places the blade was periodically hammered thin on a portable anvil that was driven into a stump but I haven't seen that here. To sharpen, you rest your end of the "snath" (handle) on the ground, steady the blade (the "schneed") with the left hand on the blunt side, and swipe the stone from back to front of the blade nearly parallel to the blade width. I've seen the old folks swipe and tap out a neat rhythm when they sharpen. I can't do it right. A new scythe costs as much as a string trimmer. Old ones are usually shot, but once in a while fair ones turn up in anteek stores. I'm 6 feet tall and it's hard to get the scythe adjusted properly. When you swing it, it needs to go in a long arc with the blade length and width parallel to the ground. Most novices think you draw the bade towards you with a chopping motion but that ain't it. Like everything, it takes practice. One of my old neighbors said, "One of the worst things I did is let my young 'uns get growed up without knowing how to use a mowing scythe." Phil E. ---- Start of Message 127712 ---- From: "Walt Cheever" Date: 2004-01-18 08:57:52 Subject: WTB Russell Jennings bits Fellow galoots: I had a box of auger bits wash up on my doorstep from the *Bay yesterday. Not a gloatable transaction, but I'm satisfied. Trouble is, there's a couple missing and the coll### coll### coll### advanced anal user in me would like to finish the set. If you have an extra #5 or a #6 in good user condition--reasonable finish and sharpenable spurs, I'd like to help you clean up your shop. Just send a ping off list. Walt Cheever In Minnesota which is trying to take back its cold weather capital standing from the right coast. (-3 as I type.) Thank goodness for central heat. ---- Start of Message 127713 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-01-18 10:04:57 Subject: Re: Minor gloat Hi MIke & All, Re Mike's try square with a Something 25, 1874 patent date. I believe that August was the only month in 1874 on which the 25th was a valid patent date and I find nothing in DATAMP for that date that sounds like what Mike has. Of course, there's no guarantee it's not marked with an invalid date from some other month like (my personal estimate) about 10% of the marked patent dates on tools are. Best Wishes, Solomons Bob ---- Start of Message 127714 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-01-18 10:18:54 Subject: Re: Reading a Board Rule Hi Steve & All, I almost had a spasm when I first saw Steve's mention of a Board Rule - before I realized for sure he meant a Board Foot Rule and not a Log Rule. The markings on Log Rules are usually nearly totally meaningless. I used to have a bit of a special interest in Log Rules and found a small Forest Service booklet that did a excellent job of helping decipher the strange numbers on them. There were over 100 different types of such rules with wildly different markings on them for given intersections of tree lengths and diameters. When I recenlty found out that a friend of mine was doing some research on log rules and couldn't find this booklet thru the GPO, I loaned him mine with a proviso that I would like it back some day. The main reason I gave him was that I was sure that a day would come when somebody in this group would ask a question about a log rule that I would be able to use that booklet to answer. Thought that day had come when my cupboard was bare. Best Wishes, Solomons Bob ---- Start of Message 127715 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-01-18 15:23:36 Subject: Fwd: re: Triple Patent date Stanley Plane worship Two things. World War Two for some reason promoted Stenley to make heaver than normal castings. This would be Type 17 but there are all kinds of oddities, Castings taped for frog adjusters but not the frogs, frogs tapped but not the casting different adjuster wheels, etc. In addition to this Stanley made the almost mythical 4 1/2 H which is said to have an even heaver casting than the war production. I haven' seen one nor have I talked with anyone who has. According to Walter they are more common in Britan and Austrailia than the US. Walter clames they are the equal to an Infill but I would have to see that. Steve in Indy ---- Start of Message 127716 ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-01-18 10:38:33 Subject: Re: Cleaning old planes Jeff Gorman wrote: > Responding to the cue: please take a look at my web site - 'Planing > Notes' - starting at 'Fettling A Cast Iron Plane'. I have read your page Jeff; good stuff. Now, I pose the question to the group. Does anyone else use soap and water? (Other than Paddy?) I have to admit, I'm intrigued by the possibility. I'm getting somewhat tired of the hassle involved with mineral spirits and its cleanup, rag handling, etc. ---- Start of Message 127717 ---- From: "Bruce Dissel" Date: 2004-01-18 15:49:08 Subject: Goodell-Pratt ID Greetings, I would like to ask for help in an ID for a curious Goodell-Pratt tool that found me recently;It is 3 1/4" wide,1" deep and 3/4" tall.It looks like a cast triangular frog with 2 small blades side by side on it.This is nickel plated.Between the blades the frog juts out and T's off to a crosspiece that forms the mouths for said blades.It also has what seems to be a cover with the GP logo that snaps over the frog front to back and protects the sole.It has no handles.Seems kind of like a little handheld flush trim tool? Any help appreciated. Bruce ---- Start of Message 127718 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-18 11:10:37 Subject: RE: Cleaning old planes >: If this is off charter, > >How could it be? Why does Jonathan feel the need to say this? > >Jeff Sorry, I think I'm being overly sensitive, and my comment was completely uneccessary. I've recieved some off-list advice, and everything is clear to me now. I would just like to say that I enjoy exchanges on topics that have been covered before, and that are dealt with in galoot websites, like yours. I'm hoping to see more exchanges of ideas, rather than simply directing galoots to the archive, some booklist, or a website, even though I think that these resources should also be consulted. All the best Jonathan ---- Start of Message 127719 ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 2004-01-18 11:17:06 Subject: Re: butternut/chestnut Phil E wrote: >Butternut is heavy and hard, almost >like hickory. We appear to have two different woods in mind. Butternut (Juglans cinerea) is softer than black walnut (Juglans nigra). Donald Culross Peattie, in "A Natural History of Trees of Eastern and Central North America" describes the wood as "very light..weak, soft" with a weight of only 25 lbs per cubic ft. Black walnut weighs in at 39 lbs per cubic ft.and hickories are in the 45 to 55 lb per cubic ft range, depending on the species. I haven't used much butternut but my shop experience and hardwood supply excursions match with the above. There is such a thing as bitternut hickory, BTW. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Will Work For Tools The Galoot's Progress Old Tools site is at: http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/galtprog.html ---- Start of Message 127720 ---- From: "Steve from Kokomo" Date: 2004-01-18 11:17:12 Subject: Re: Fwd: re: Triple Patent date Stanley Plane worship See, Steve? You should go to Darley's Barn. While there, I fondled a dealer's 4-1/2H (I don't remember what 4-digit number he had on the price tag). It was heavy, thicket than any WWII casting I've seen. I'd guesstimate it weighed as much a 5, maybe a 5-1/2. The conventional wisdom is that Stanley was trying to compete with the infills, so it makes sense that they'd turn up in countries where those were made and marketed. Can't speak to performance. Steve lineback said: > Stanley made the almost mythical 4 1/2 H which is said > to have an even heaver casting than the war production. I haven' seen > one nor have I talked with anyone who has. According to Walter they are > more common in Britan and Austrailia than the US. Walter clames they are > the equal to an Infill but I would have to see that. -- Steve - another Kokomo galoot ---- Start of Message 127721 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-01-18 08:17:05 Subject: Re: gluing totes Any glue will do. It's cleaning the area, scratching it up a little and -clamping pressure- that works for me. Look down at the bottom here. Oh, and the green epoxy I save for other stuff 8^) http://showcase.netins.net/web/iabonsai/Grandstaff/various.html yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 127722 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-18 11:20:28 Subject: Re: Cleaning old planes Jonathan's been cleaning some planes... I find electrolysis hard to beat. It works as well for dirt and paint as for rust. A toothbrush will just lift off whatever's left, from threads to tight corners. It will leave a funny grey tinge to cast iron (and saws) which might be objectionable. As for Stanley types, I've found that up until somewhere around type 8 or 9 (can't remember) the frog doesn't provide much support for the iron close to the edge because it's cantilever'ed out over thin air. This may not pose a problem normally, but it prevents closing down the mouth for problem woods since the shaving can push the frog away and then get stuck in the mouth. I vote for low-knob type 11's as well. (Sorry, Jeff) Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 127723 ---- From: "Sanford Moss" Date: 2004-01-18 11:23:14 Subject: RE: Goodell-Pratt ID Bruce found an unusual Goodell-Pratt Tool: >I would like to ask for help in an ID for a curious Goodell-Pratt tool that >found me recently;It is 3 1/4" wide,1" deep and 3/4" tall.It looks like a >cast triangular frog with 2 small blades side by side on it.This is nickel >plated.Between the blades the frog juts out and T's off to a crosspiece >that forms the mouths for said blades.It also has what seems to be a cover >with the GP logo that snaps over the frog front to back and protects the >sole.It has no handles.Seems kind of like a little handheld flush trim >tool? >Any help appreciated. Bruce and all, This sounds like the Goodell-Pratt No. 37 Double Knife Spoke Shave. Not a common tool, at all (I've never seen one), the catalogue description reads: "This is particularly a pattern-makers' tools, and one which will effect a great saving of time in shoulders, corners, in grooves and slots, and in many other places where it is impossible to operate an ordinary spoke shave; a protector can be used over either Blade, making it equally adaptable for either right or left hand work. The tool is well finished and thoroughly practical in its working." Nice find. Sandy Tools for Sale list at http://www.sydnassloot.com/tools.htm Brace Collection at http://www.sydnassloot.com/brace.htm _________________________________________________________________ There are now three new levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Learn more. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1 ---- Start of Message 127724 ---- From: Joe Macak Date: 2004-01-18 09:17:52 Subject: Re: Cleaning old planes Hi Michael Soap & water is usually the second, or so, thing that I try when cleaning my old tools. I usally go from non- to least- invasive when doing the cleaning. If I am cleaning something that doesn't come apart, a yankee automatic screwdriver, for example, I don't use any soap & water. I'm afraid that I won't get the innards dry and it will rust up. This means that I start with just dusting the tool. I that is not good enough then it gets the soap & water treatment. I have also resorted to a -very- light cleaning with S.O.S-type (soapy steel wool) pads. Done correctly, I see no discernable marks from this. I have never gone any farther than this, e.g. electrolysis, wire wheel (yikes!), etc. After the soapy water, I pop them into a warm (~130 degree F) oven for a while. Just like Paddy, said, the wax is really easy to apply when the parts are toasty warm. Of course, I don't have any 'collector' tools, but, I feel that my tools should look like they are 100 years old. 100 years old but well loved. cheerio joe in overcast seattle On Sun, Jan 18, 2004 at 10:38:33AM -0500, Michael campbell wrote: > > Now, I pose the question to the group. Does anyone else use soap and > water? (Other than Paddy?) > ---- Start of Message 127725 ---- From: "Pete Bergstrom" Date: 2004-01-18 11:22:02 Subject: MWTCA meetings are great places to find old tools (was Re: [oldtools] WTB Russel "Walt Cheever" wrote: > couple missing and the coll### coll### coll### advanced anal user in me > would like to finish the set. > > If you have an extra #5 or a #6 in good user condition--reasonable finish > and sharpenable spurs, I'd like to help you clean up your shop. Just send a > ping off list. Walt, there's a MWTCA Area A (Minnesota) meeting in a few weeks (Feb 14) just west of the Twin Cities in Medina. This is one of 2 1/2 each year (the 1/2 is a dual Area A & B meeting on the MN-WI border that splits location between LaCrosse and Rochester) and is, other than the 'bay or a big-name tool dealer, one of the best places to find old tools. Admission is only $10 (14 at the door), or if you sign up as a new MWTCA member at the door, you'll get admission free. I'll reiterate what Wayne Anderson wrote a couple of weeks ago - he's donating one of his amazing planes for a door prize. You must be a member and present to win. I got my second-cousin to come last year and he joined at the door. Almost won that Anderson plane, too. Hope to see you there! Pete in St. Paul (PS, I just went down to the shop and looked for extra 5's and 6's. Only a couple of 6's and *no* 5's. Guess I've got the start of a shopping list now.) ---- Start of Message 127726 ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-01-18 11:22:33 Subject: Re: butternut/chestnut The light weight was part of what made me think chestnut, but when I looked it up both butternut and chestnut have similar specific gravities. The first board I surfaced was plain sawn with the grain at a slight angle to the surface. This made it look more "oak like" than the later boards. That and the weight made me think chestnut. I am sure now it is butternut. The sapwood is white, the shavings have a sheen to them, and the later boards have a grain look more like walnut. Sure does work nicely. I have deep drifts of long thin shavings on the workshed floor. A real pleasure to work with. It was so easy and tractable a wood that I immediately thought of making my project a bit more complicated and grandiose than originally planned. Sliding Dovetails! Rabbets! Moulded edges! Fret work! SWMBO took a look at the boards I surfaced, found them gorgeous, and immediately suggested that I not waste any of the nice ones on my project ...she has a low, and disappointingly more accurate, estimate of my skill level Regards, John Lederer Oregon, Wisconsin TomPrice@a... wrote: >We appear to have two different woods in mind. Butternut (Juglans >cinerea) is softer than black walnut (Juglans nigra). Donald Culross >Peattie, in "A Natural History of Trees of Eastern and Central North >America" describes the wood as "very light..weak, soft" with a weight of >only 25 lbs per cubic ft. Black walnut weighs in at 39 lbs per cubic >ft.and hickories are in the 45 to 55 lb per cubic ft range, depending on >the species. > >I haven't used much butternut but my shop experience and hardwood supply >excursions match with the above. There is such a thing as bitternut >hickory, BTW. >**************************** >Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) >Will Work For Tools >The Galoot's Progress Old Tools site is at: >http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/galtprog.html > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > ---- Start of Message 127727 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-18 11:38:02 Subject: Re: Cleaning old planes I haven't thought about it in almost 50 years, but when I was in the military, we cleaned our weapons before inspection with hot soapy water. This was against regulations, but it sure worked well. We never got gigged for dirty weaponry. You do have to oil right away to prevent rust though. So I have to come down on Paddy's side of this issue. Soap and water work. And if SWMBO will allow it, the dishwasher works well too. On Sunday, January 18, 2004, at 07:38 AM, Michael campbell wrote: > Jeff Gorman wrote: > >> Responding to the cue: please take a look at my web site - 'Planing >> Notes' - starting at 'Fettling A Cast Iron Plane'. > > I have read your page Jeff; good stuff. > > Now, I pose the question to the group. Does anyone else use soap and > water? (Other than Paddy?) > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 127728 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-18 11:43:49 Subject: Re: Cleaning old planes I agree with you completely, but if you hang around long enough, you are gonna see the day when you get tired of telling somebody about sharpening the trimble on their Stanley burfel. It isn't laziness, but rather repetition that tires us old guys out. But you're still right! On Sunday, January 18, 2004, at 08:10 AM, Jonathan Peck wrote: > > I'm hoping to see more exchanges of ideas, rather than simply directing > galoots to the archive, some booklist, or a website, even though I > think that > these resources should also be consulted. > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 127729 ---- From: "Charles Driggs" Date: 2004-01-18 14:49:46 Subject: Re: Rodriguez at Woodcraft - recap Eric relates watching a master at work .... and inquires > The order went something like this: No. 40, No. 62, No. 4, > Low angle block, and a card scraper ( all LN mind you ). > The thing that made me go "huh?" was the use of the No. 62. and > the low angle block. Now I have always read ... that for ... > complex grain ... that a smoother with it's iron bedded at a higher > angle is the way to go. ...what say the group on their experience > with low angled planes on the gnarly stuff? Much of what I have done (being a part-timer, admittedly not a huge body of work, but decent enough) in curly cherry or curly maple, and some heavily figured claro walnut pointed out the need for something better than a No. 3 or 4 to get nice results. Up until a few years ago I tried to make do with a tuned No. 3 with a Rev. Ron iron. I bought both the York pitch LN 4½ and the LN 164 (shorter version of the 62) on a visit to the factory based upon trials on a chunk of curly maple in their visitor area, and I don't regret anything about that trip, including the price paid. There have been times when the 4½ didn't perform as well as the 164, and I think this has usually been the case when the curl of the wood is pronounced enough to effectively bring up 'bars' of end grain along the surface. I'll ordinarily reach for the 4½ first, as Jeff suggested ... but if that isn't working as well as expected, I'll try the low angle route and sometimes that is better. As for the order of use, it seems to me that Mr. Rodriquez must have the 62 set up as a low angle jack (it's intended use, IIRC) rather than as a smoother, as normally a jack would be called for following the scrub. My use of the 164 would probably be more akin to his grabbing the low-angle block. If the workpiece is relatively small, say less than 18", the low angle block would be easier to maneuver (manoeuver, Jeff?) than the 164. If you're having very good luck, you might get away without the scraper step, but I don't find that the case very often. I'll use both my modified No. 80 and a card-style scraper. Since ListMom Steve Reynolds showed quite a bit of interest in how I butcher.. ahh, ahh, ahh .. improved my No. 80 a couple weeks ago, I've posted the details for Porch members to read at www.home.mindspring.com/~cdinde/modifyano80scraper2 Charlie Driggs Newark DE ---- Start of Message 127730 ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-01-18 15:12:20 Subject: edge jointing boards I have read Don M's new article on edge jointing and I had the opportunity to talk with his editor on this subject. This is something I have had little success with, but, do want to learn. Does anyone on the porch have anything to add? I have a Stanley #7. Will this plane do the job? Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ---- Start of Message 127731 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-18 15:20:00 Subject: RE: No. 50 cutter que. Bill asks : >Have you ever tried to use any of the cutters below 1/4"? I picked up a >050C off of ebay this year and can not for the life of me determine how to >use the smaller cutters. Of course it did not come with a manual. You have to flip the smaller body half so the skate is on top. Strange but it works. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 127732 ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-01-18 12:21:46 Subject: Re: Pliers type Saw Set--Handyman? --- Andrew Midkiff wrote: > I'm wondering if Stanley sold a Handyman version of > this? I'm asking because I ran across a saw set just > like a 42x but it wasn't as heavy a metal and it > wasn't marked in the casting. It did have just the > remains of a Stanley decal which looked kind of like > the couple of Handyman decals I've seen. It was only > partial, just enough to tell that it used to say > Stanley on it. > > Just curious if anyone else has run into these and > if > they will work as well as the regular 42x? I think that I may have aHandyman pliers type sawset,, and I know that I sold one to a fellow Galloot a couple of years ago. I think it may have been red. If I recall correctly, they were stamped sheet metal construction instead of castings or heavier construction like the 42x. I don't think that they had the second plunger, and may twist and bend under pressure over the years. By the way, M-WTCA tool meets are great places to get user tools--my first 42x came out of a junk box under a member's table for $1. My second one was $10 on *bay, but it was nearly new in the box, and was for a gift for my son Ryland. How come I keep buying him nice tools-in-the-box, when he keeps using my stuff in the shop? ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127733 ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-01-18 15:23:03 Subject: Re: edge jointing boards Bill Rittner wrote: > I have read Don M's new article on edge jointing and I had the opportunity > to talk with his editor on this subject. This is something I have had little > success with, but, do want to learn. Does anyone on the porch have anything > to add? I have a Stanley #7. Will this plane do the job? > > Bill Rittner > R & B ENTERPRISES > Manchester, CT Yup. #6's will even work for shorter boards. ---- Start of Message 127734 ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-01-18 14:58:38 Subject: Fwd: Re: [oldtools] Pliers type Saw Set > Jim Thompson said; >What you want is a Stanley 42X sawset. The others are all pretty >much the same. >> I need help here too! Since you long time porchites started talking about this mysterious Stanley 42X, I have searched in all of my rust purchasing haunts (and yea there are many) as well as on this electronic technological Sears and Roebuck catalogue and I can not find this tool. I really really want one;-) My turn of the century Stanley product catalogue does not offer a set 42X, but shows a 43 and a 43(something or other), so even if I were to jump into the way-back machine with Mr. Peabody I could not get one. Even Vintage saws is sold out, how many were made? Rex Rex Wood Werks ---- Start of Message 127735 ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 2004-01-18 13:03:45 Subject: I'm Beginning to See the Light Gentle Galoots, Though it's mentioned casually enough in many of our reference books and websites, not to mention Ella Fitzgerald (classy, sassy American singer from the last century, Richard) could really belt it out, enough cannot be said of having more than adequate lighting for your Galoot workspace (personally, I'm doing an on-site job, so it's not really my shop). This occurred to me as I have spent the better part of the last couple days refinishing a commerical conference table (really thin veneer, Ralph, DAMHIKT) - transforming it from the typical dead/dull/consistant boring look of overly stained walnut, to something with a bit more character (namely - shellac with a tung oil undercoat). The scene of this transmogrification has been a corner office with floor to ceiling windows on two sides. Oh my, what a difference. I've got adequate light to say the least. In short, it improves the ability to hone your tools, check for flat/square, and most importantly, detect and deal with surface/finish defects. IMO, natural light, and even better, indirect natural light is the best. If you can at all arrange for shop windows, do it for the very practical reason that it will improve your shop in far more ways than the Emersonian (American author - not much in favor of drudgery, Richard) aesthetics one might assume. Also, the dying light is a good reminder that it's time to go home and have a beer (pint, Jeff) with the missus. Paddy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127736 ---- From: "Andrew Fairbank" Date: 2004-01-18 21:05:59 Subject: Re: edge jointing boards Bill Rittner wrote: ... edge jointing ...I have a Stanley #7. Will this plane do the job? Then Michael wrote: "Yup. #6's will even work for shorter boards." Now Andrew writes: The No7 is a jointing plane designed for the task. I was trained to use a No6 as a general purpose bench plane - it successfully can be used to face joint 2 x 4's that are 8' long. Either will be perfectly adequate for the task. Cheers, Andrew ---- Start of Message 127737 ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-01-18 15:18:29 Subject: Fwd: [oldtools] Butternut/chestnut John; I have not used Chestnut, but "White Walnut" works like American Black Walnut except that it tends to tear out even when you are sure you are working with the grain. Also, Butternut shows a multiple peak face grain pattern (usually two peaks) in plain sawn lumber. The key IMHO is that Butternut is very much like Walnut but a much paler brown on it's cut surfaces. -Rex ---- Start of Message 127738 ---- From: T&J Holloway Date: 2004-01-18 13:21:55 Subject: Re: Triple Patent date Stanley Plane worship On Sunday, January 18, 2004, at 03:38 AM, John R. Wilson wrote: > Wait just a dadgum minute there hey - out rocks Killdozer? Great > post Gary, does this mean that someday I will be able to trade my type > 11 #4.5 (low knob triple date smoother Jeff) for one of your #4.5 > heavy Stanley planes? I am still searching for a type 11 #2 fine > condition smoother. Does anyone know if Stanley produced many of > these smaller type 11s? To respond to the last question first, there's probably no such thing as a "Type 11 #2," even though #2s were made from 1910 to 1918. Sitting beside me as I type is my #2 Stanley smoother, which I use for many small jobs and like a lot. I date it to the period from 1931-33 (because it has "UU" model No. at the toe, and STANLEY in orange rectangle but the older keyhole in the lever cap rather than the "kidney" hole introduced in 1933). AND YET, the frog bedding is the same as the low, two-groove "CC" configuration introduced in 1888, replaced by most bench planes in 1902 with the raised frog receiver. And there is no frog adjustment screw in my #2 (nor was there ever such in the #1 or #2 Stanley planes, AFAIK). We need to keep in mind that the so-called Type Studies are after-the-fact efforts of tool aficionados to establish a chronological sequence of features that will facilitate the dating of tools. They cannot be used the same way as "model nubers" of cars, for example, decreed by the maker in advance of release, with the purpose of making the old model obsolete. Often pinning down the sequence and timing of the introduction of one or another feature is a matter of educated guesses. Also, the commonly used type study for Stanley bench planes developed (with help from others) by Roger K. Smith, reprinted as an appendix to John Walter's guide to Stanley tools, is explicitly based on the #4 smoother. Many features of the #4 size were shared across the range of bench planes (and in the case of standard company logos, across the range of many other Stanley tools), but many features were not--especially in the #1 and #2. Even the #3 line deviates from features of the #4, with MADE IN USA parallel to the bed in some models, etc. I, too, am partial to T11 Stanleys (3 patents, low knobs, frog adj. screw). Then again, several on my user shelf are well-liked T9s (PAT. AP'L 19 '92, "new style" frog). Plus which, I can say little to detract from the worthiness of the entire SW run, and on up through WWII for that matter. So if we can conclude that anything before 1892 is more in the realm of the collector, and anything since the 1950s a downward spiral, we can bracket the intervening period for further discussion. In commenting on preferences and pluses and minuses of Stanley bench planes from about the 1890s to the middle of the 20th century. I think it again becomes useful to distinguish collectors from users. This is not to set up some artificial division or to suggest that these two groups are mutually exclusive or in some sort of competition or opposition. What I'm talking about here is an *attitude* that underlies the preferences in question. As a general statement, I think that for qualities USERS seek, the real differences in Stanley bench planes of the era under discussion lie mainly in the tuning, sharpening, fettling and techniques of use. IOW, ceteris paribus (all other things being equal, sticklers for non-Latinate English ) a T9 plane can be made to function in use just about as well as a T18, and vice versa (the other way around, ditto). Sharpening the edge until it is scary, tuning the lip of the chipbreaker and placing it just so, setting the mouth opening with precision, fettling the front edge of the mouth opening, ensuring reasonable flatness of sole, setting the depth of cut appropriate to the task, applying downward pressure (thanks, Jeff), using firm and smooth strokes, etc. and so forth--THESE are the factors that make the difference to the user. From the standpoint of the COLLECTER (who may also be a user--that's not the issue), other factors enter into the mix, many of them imponderable and not subject to "testing," that govern the world of collecting. Generally, these factors center on aesthetic qualities ("I like the looks"), completing sets ("I'd give anything to fill that gap in my lineup"), and (assumed) market value--the convergence of supply and demand, testable only in conditions of actual sale. To focus on just one factor crucial for use, irrelevant for collectors: Most planes you will see on sale tables at tool meets have dull (or at least not finely honed) cutting edges on the irons, yet that doesn't seem to be much of a factor in the asking price or the 'Oh, Wow!" factor among the attendees. So my point, if I have one, may be a message to Newbies: You don't *need* a Type 11 Stanley to plane wood, much less for your entire lineup to be from a specific vintage. You need a complete and intact plane from the "classic era," (or some contemporary or modern equivalent in that range or better), and most of the rest will be up to you. Tom Holloway Recognizing that these are not the Last Words on any of the above, and noting that the Bedrock adepts, and/or those who swear by modern replacement blades and chipbreakers by those among us, might have a somewhat different take on these weighty matters. ---- Start of Message 127739 ---- From: "Peter McBride" Date: 2004-01-19 08:55:39 Subject: RE: No. 50 cutter que. Paul says for the narrow cutters. I have a USA 50 (small plough and bead plane, Jeff), and an English made 50S in its box (small plough with only straight cutters, you know that one Jeff?) with this little envelope that contains the answer. http://www.petermcbride.com/st50screw.jpg A large flat head screw that substitutes for the smaller body half. I've never used this screw, I've only used the plane for small beading work...which it does well. Regards. Peter, In Melbourne, Aust. www.petermcbride.com -----Original Message----- From: Ralph Brendler [mailto:ralph@b...] Sent: Thursday, 15 January 2004 12:21 PM To: oldtools Cc: oldtools Subject: Re: [oldtools] No. 50 cutter que. Phil E. asks: > Does anyone know if the cutters for a No. 55 (way too complicated for me > molding etc. plane, Jeff) will fit into a No. 50 (less complicated dado > and plow plane, Jeff). I'm trying to get a 50 and cutters. This has come up before, and I believe the answer depends on how old the #50 is. If the #50 is pre-adjuster you'll probably be OK, but if it has the blade adjustment you are out of luck. The #50 adjuster requires grooves cut into the back of the iron, so a #45/#55 cutter will not seat properly. -- Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL - OTLM, ENB, FOYBIPO "Science works even if you don't believe in it..." - Penn Jillette ---- Start of Message 127740 ---- From: "Peter McBride" Date: 2004-01-19 09:10:52 Subject: wonder glue GGs, Revealing favourite fishing spots is not on, but you guys and gals won't tell anyone will you?? Some years ago I made a ring for a new client, she was the secretary to the Manager of Loctite Aust. I wanted a glue to use for gluing pearls to gold. Body acid attacks most anything I could buy, so she sent their Technical Rep. to see me. His immediate suggestion was Loctite 454, gap filling instant gel... with the added advantage that it would start to break down at about 80 deg. C. Great for repair later. http://tinyurl.com/3egov I was given a Box of sample tubes ( see, I was a good friend of the bosses secretary...) and the data sheet. http://tinyurl.com/3yogc I read this and a shinning beam of light came down through the ceiling and I heard a deep voice say "you must take this home and use it on busted plane handles" So I did. That was a few years ago, my box of samples ran out late last year. The local Auto parts supply house sells it, and the counter guy told me *this stuff is so good it will hold a marriage together* It is expensive, so I don't use it to glue up book shelves, but in small applications it is unbeatable. Amongst many others I rebuilt a #10 1/4 (crazy loose handle bench rebate plane Jeff) tilting handle that I busted into 6 pieces to get out a rusted nut and rod. I wipe away the squeeze out with a knife, it scrapes and files when hard, it sticks cast iron plugs in plane bases, the bloom can be wiped off with acetone. It seems to almost disappear when in a thin line in dark woods. As the sales guy said, *Try it, you won't be disappointed*. Regards, Peter. In Melbourne, Australia. www.petermcbride.com ---- Start of Message 127741 ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-01-18 14:32:26 Subject: re: edge jointing boards >> I have read Don M's new article on edge jointing and I had the opportunity >> to talk with his editor on this subject. This is something I have had >> little >> success with, but, do want to learn. Does anyone on the porch have >> anything >> to add? I have a Stanley #7. Will this plane do the job? Which article is this? Edge planing is a skill I need. Alan Epson Inkjet Printer FAQ: http://welcome.to/epson-inkjet ---- Start of Message 127742 ---- From: JPagona@a... Date: 2004-01-18 17:34:32 Subject: Re: Fwd: re: Triple Patent date Stanley Plane worship In a message dated 1/18/2004 10:35:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, stevelineback@c... writes: >>Two things. World War Two for some reason promoted Stenley to make heaver than normal castings. << Galoot tools, including hand planes, were used by US forces in all theaters of operations. Perhaps the heavier castings were made to War Department specs. The best primer I have in basic galoot carpentry is a War Department technical manual on Carpentry in Theaters of Operations, dated 1943. David Sobel Tampa, FL ---- Start of Message 127743 ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-01-18 14:47:55 Subject: Modern Workmate opinions? Anyone have the "new" 425 model as seen here: http://www.blackanddecker.com/ProductGuide/ProductDetail.aspx?PID=7812 The only retailer I can find near me is borgian and their web pix is sligthly different although it appears to be merely cosmetic--ugly painted black wood. Having re-read the chapter in "The Workbench Book", I'm a'wondering if getting this is going to a disappointment or not. Kyle Accardi who is confident this is on charter ---- Start of Message 127744 ---- From: "Peter McBride" Date: 2004-01-19 09:52:06 Subject: RE: Fwd: re: Triple Patent date Stanley Plane worship Steve, and GGs <4 1/2 H which is said to have an even heaver casting than the war = production. I haven' seen one nor have I talked with anyone who has> The 4 1/2 H drew some outrageous price at a famous auction a few years = back and has tapered off since. I think there were a few wealthy = collectors there who were in a 3 way race. I had a 4 1/2 H in my hands for a few weeks. A 5 1/2 H was also made. The 4 1/2 H that I had was cobbled together because it was incomplete = when found. The frog and blade are the same size as a 5 1/2, slightly narrower than = a standard 4 1/2, which won't fit between the casting walls. The casting sides are about as thick as a 1950's Made in England 4 1/2, = and a little thicker (from memory) than a WW11 model. Nothing is mysterious about their working ability, just another good = quality Stanley product I guess, tried in a foreign market. It may not be heresy to suggest they could compete with the infills, = just comparing apples with oranges.=20 They were of course much cheaper than the infills back then. Regards, Peter In Melbourne Australia, where today I am going to see the retired = Product Development Executive of Stanley Aust. He has almost all the paperwork, catalogues etc. that was being thrown = out in the 80's and 90's. Oh what joy awaits me? www.petermcbride.com ---- Start of Message 127745 ---- From: JPagona@a... Date: 2004-01-18 18:08:17 Subject: Re: Modern Workmate opinions? In a message dated 1/18/2004 5:48:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, sandbox@p... writes: <> I have that one or a similar model. It's very handy as an extra work surface, but I wouldn't want it as my primary bench. David Sobel Tampa, FL ---- Start of Message 127746 ---- From: "CheekyGeek" Date: 2004-01-18 15:24:38 Subject: ...and now our Galoot correspondant, live in Oz Peter tacks on: "In Melbourne Australia, where today I am going to see the retired Product Development Executive of Stanley Aust. He has almost all the paperwork, catalogues etc. that was being thrown out in the 80's and 90's. Oh what joy awaits me?" We shall be awaiting word of what you found with bated breath, Peter! Hoping you can add some much need to details to the info found here: http://www.htpaa.org.au/stanley-oz.php Darren Addy Kearney, Nebraska ---- Start of Message 127747 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-01-18 18:33:03 Subject: Re: edge jointing boards On January 18, 2004 5:32 pm, Alan Womack wrote: > >> I have read Don M's new article on edge jointing and I had > >> the opportunity to talk with his editor on this subject. This > >> is something I have had little > >> success with, but, do want to learn. Does anyone on the > >> porch have anything > >> to add? I have a Stanley #7. Will this plane do the job? > > Which article is this? Edge planing is a skill I need. Don't know about that one but there's an article at the end of the Feb 2004 Popular Woodworking on edge planing. Seems like I've seen another one recently but I can't put my hands on it right now. Sorry. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 127748 ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-01-18 18:50:04 Subject: Re: edge jointing boards The Feb issue of Popular Woodworking pg 92. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply Which article is this? Edge planing is a skill I need. Alan Epson Inkjet Printer FAQ: http://welcome.to/epson-inkjet ---- Start of Message 127749 ---- From: "Peter McBride" Date: 2004-01-19 10:51:52 Subject: RE: ...and now our Galoot correspondant, live in Oz Darren, and all, At the bottom of that page are the authors, Graeme Plaw is one of the them. It is Graeme I am going to see. He has boxes and boxes of books and papers. I took over some of my treasured tools last time, mostly planes, Stanley and their competitors. He looks over them with the experienced eye of a professional tool maker. Comments on the manufacturing processes are great. He says that the ability to produce the lovely castings of the very early type 2 - 4 economically is lost with the guys who were doing it. Like throwing in *stuff* just before the pour, depending on the look and the feel of the molten metal. I particularly wanted to look at his Dealer Catalogues, the wholesale prices are VERY interesting reading. I have just got a 139E (export) Stanley Catalogue, 1942 without the W/S pricelist, he has some earlier ones with the W/S lists, but hadn't seen mine. Last time I was over there I thought I saw $8 as the cost, when retail was $36.00 for a #55. Want to check that out. Peter. Melbourne, Australia. -----Original Message----- From: CheekyGeek [mailto:cheekygeek@w...] Sent: Monday, 19 January 2004 10:25 AM To: oldtools Subject: [oldtools] ...and now our Galoot correspondant, live in Oz Peter tacks on: "In Melbourne Australia, where today I am going to see the retired Product Development Executive of Stanley Aust. He has almost all the paperwork, catalogues etc. that was being thrown out in the 80's and 90's. Oh what joy awaits me?" We shall be awaiting word of what you found with bated breath, Peter! Hoping you can add some much need to details to the info found here: http://www.htpaa.org.au/stanley-oz.php Darren Addy Kearney, Nebraska ---- Start of Message 127750 ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-01-18 15:53:34 Subject: Re: Modern Workmate opinions? To claify: I just persused the wonderful archives and realize this question has come up before, as lately as May of 2003 (unfortunately the pix of Robert Brown's modifications to his WM are mia). I went through the whole workbench dilema last year, convinced I was going to build my own. Between remodeling the house and other varied interests (radio, microscopy, beer-making, etc.) the bench hasn't yet materialized. I even have the vice hardware but couldn't reconcile spending the time mounting it to the existing excuse for a bench that came with the house. Enough waffling! it's time to just build one. It won't be fancy and it will take less that a year to complete (so help me god). If I happen to run across a WM for less than $100, it'll help out in the aforementioned remodeling efforts. Cheers, Kyle Accardi ---- Start of Message 127751 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-01-18 16:16:37 Subject: Re: Triple Patent date Stanley Plane worship Hi Guys--- I do believe that even the modern (available retail today) Stanley tools are still sufficient to do quality work on most woods---and Stanley blades are up to most tasks---just as most cars are up to the task of driving to the grocery store. You would want to have a Type 4 Stanley (last no-lateral family of Stanley bench planes, Jeff), or Type 11 (last lowknob family of...Jeff), you'd want these for the same reason you'd want to have a 32 Ford coupe, or a 1949 Indian Chief--it never got any better than this, and it never will. In all fairness to types 12 through type 19, or so, they're still infinitely better than just holding the blade in your hands... best to all galoots everywhere; GAM I have snipped the bulk of this excellent post: So my point, if I have one, may be a message to Newbies: You don't *need* a Type 11 Stanley to plane wood, much less for your entire lineup to be from a specific vintage. You need a complete and intact plane from the "classic era," (or some contemporary or modern equivalent in that range or better), and most of the rest will be up to you. Tom Holloway __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127752 ---- From: Steven & Anne Nelson Fisher Date: 2004-01-18 18:17:38 Subject: Re: Modern Workmate opinions? On Sunday, January 18, 2004, at 04:47 PM, Kyle Accardi wrote: > Anyone have the "new" 425 model as seen here: > http://www.blackanddecker.com/ProductGuide/ProductDetail.aspx?PID=7812 > > The only retailer I can find near me is borgian and their web pix is > sligthly different although it appears to be merely cosmetic--ugly > painted black wood. > > Having re-read the chapter in "The Workbench Book", I'm a'wondering if > getting this is going to a disappointment or not. > Hi All, I've got one very similar to this. Useful for some tasks like when I used it to hold a mitre box while making a wooden coved ceiling; but you'll die of heartbreak trying to use it for planing. It's not heavy enough. You end up dancing all over the place--even with sandbags helping hold it. It's got it's uses; just don't think of it as a workbench. Steve in Brainerd, MN ---- Start of Message 127753 ---- From: Steven & Anne Nelson Fisher Date: 2004-01-18 18:29:18 Subject: Re: Modern Workmate opinions? On Sunday, January 18, 2004, at 05:53 PM, Kyle Accardi wrote: > > Enough waffling! it's time to just build one. It won't be fancy and > it will take less that a year to complete (so help me god). > > If I happen to run across a WM for less than $100, it'll help out in > the aforementioned remodeling efforts. > Kyle, GGs: If you've got a little time, keep your eyes open for any upcoming school auctions. Ask the local shop teachers if they'll be selling anything. With wood shops closing all over the country (don't get me started on that issue), it's likely you can find a good starter bench--cheaply. I got 5-1/2' x 5-1/2' x 3" thick maple topped bench sitting on top of typically shop lockers for $6. I split the top into two, divided the lockers into two sections, flipped the tops over, planned lots, added vises and then oiled the sucker. It works. I added a little extra weight by placing old sash weights in a few lockers and the two benches don't move. Wished I bought the other three that were for sale. I would have 4 benches for $21. I can't complain though, they threw in two boxes of Stanley 45 planes for free since nobody knew what they were and nobody wanted them. Steve in Brainerd, MN ---- Start of Message 127754 ---- From: "Bretton Wade" Date: 2004-01-18 16:45:01 Subject: taking a break from shoptime - I've got questions Hi Folks, I don't post too often, mostly because I often find myself too busy to get into the shop anymore. Since the holiday, though, I've had a lot of time in the shop due to the good graces of SWMBO. First off, I have begun to be less hand tool based of late. I know this is a taboo subject, but I started using my *&$%# saw, and I got a little Jet lathe as an early b'day present (woodcraft had an *incredible* sale). The saw I can justify to myself despite my earlier opinions, because I had some 8/4 cherry sitting around waiting to become table legs. I kept putting it off because the sheer amount of physical labor that would be involved in sawing that up. Well, I finally went at one edge with a scrub plane, jack plane, and a jointer plane - all to get a straight edge. I crosscut it with my Atkins 8pt saw (that I made the handle for) - then used the powered demon to cut the strips. I haven't been that nervous in some time. The wood is now sitting waiting for me to make the rest of the table. The lathe - well I did have a nice set of Witherby turning chisels sitting around that were waiting for a use. I sharpened them up, and my fourth turning was a usable chisel handle made out of apple branch. I consulted Conover's Lather Book (the only book I have on the subject) to help me get through the entry period. I think I need a larger skew chisel, the one I have is 1/2". It is very difficult to use without digging in. I also need a bigger gouge for roughing out. One question I have is about one of the lathe chisels I have. It's not mentioned in the Conover book, and I don't even see that Sorby makes one (from various catalogs). It's a spear point, kind of like a marking knife. One side is flat, and the other side has two bezels to form the spear point. What would I use this for? I recently finished a little box from cherry. I photographed the whole process and will post the pictures after I have a chance to size them and edit them. It came out quite well, mostly due to the remarkable way the linseed oil fills gaps on cherry projects. That box had a stringing decoration on the top, which gave me a reason to break out my Preston quirk router. I've also had some time to rehab a few tools. I sharpened up all those Witherby lathe chisels, and worked for a while on a Mottram 3/8" pigsticker that I plane to use on those table legs. I had to grind back a nasty chip, cleanup the whole tool, and put a new handle on (the original was cracked all the way through). I used a chunk of white oak, and the drawknife that my secret Santa brought me, followed up with some rasp and file work. Ironically, the only injury I suffered was with the rasp, and I managed to do it twice to two separate fingers despite taking special vise precautions after the first one. That about does it. I enjoy reading everybody's adventures (except that thread about horrible accidents - I still have nightmares thank you very much). Highest Regards to you all, Bretton P.S. I don't how well this will go over, but I'm going to England for a conference in about two weeks... -- Bretton Wade (aka Noz Moe King) in Bellevue, WA ---- Start of Message 127755 ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-01-18 19:57:05 Subject: Back flattening I've got a decent #8, type 8 or 9 jointer plane that I've been cleaning up and rehabbing. Other than the "japanning" coming off (which I strongly suspect as spray paint, as I've never seen it flake like this before), it's in pretty good shape... except the iron. The back has a very noticeable hollow right at the business end. I'm taking it down with 220 wet-dry, but I can see this taking more time than I want to spend. I have some loose grit silicon carbide though, and was wondering if I might be able to sprinkle a little of the coarser stuff on my wet-dry to hog off some more metal a little quicker. Thoughts? other ideas? ---- Start of Message 127756 ---- From: "Lawrence H. Smith" Date: 2004-01-18 20:11:22 Subject: Re: Modern Workmate opinions? IMO, the old cast-aluminum workmates are much nicer than the present-day stamped steel ones. Keep an eye out at yard sales, fleas, etc. That said, I have the (stamped steel, MDF [termite-barf] top) Sears version from last year on loan from my Dad right now (he brought it over when helping on the shop project, which is ongoing), and it's not bad for clamping stuff that fits and sawing things that are fairly short (I used it when cutting a bunch of 8' 2x4 in half, and that's about the limit, IHMO, due to tippiness of overhanging lumber and holding up the cut-off). I have not tried planing on it, and I would doubt that it would be much fun for planing. I could just about envision a pair of them holding a beam, and planing on the beam, but by the time you have the beam, you're a few legs away from a narrow beam-bench, and might as well build the legs. Two workmates would make pretty good sawhorses for longer things than one will hold well, but they are much more expensive than just building a pair of horses. If you're long on money and short on time, there are probably better bought workbench options. If you're short on money and long on time (or even not short of money, but have time), building will get you something a lot better for all purposes. You may want to look into some of the lower end lotta-two-by softwood benches mentioned here from time to time and chronicled on various folks' websites; I'm not sure how low end the workbench book goes (must be some if it mentions the workmate), but I know it goes verra-high-end, and that can be the sort of thing that keeps you thinking you're not ready to build one yet - you are. You may replace it 2-3 times, and then again you may discover that it works just fine, thanks. -- -Lawrence H Smith, Librarian/Computarian for Buxton School and Woodworker -lsmith@s... Cats, Coffee, Chocolate... Vices to live by. ---- Start of Message 127757 ---- From: Joe Macak Date: 2004-01-18 17:24:09 Subject: Re: Back flattening Hi Michael Maybe it's time to consider an upgrade? Something like a Hock cutter is often considered an option that you won't regret. This way you don't have to use up the old 'collectible' cutter. If not, I'd probably get out the Alumina Zirconium 60 grit and prepare myself for a little workout. cheers joe in not-too-cold seattle On Sun, Jan 18, 2004 at 07:57:05PM -0500, Michael campbell wrote: > Thoughts? other ideas? ---- Start of Message 127758 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-18 20:46:05 Subject: RE: No. 50 cutter que. Peter writes : >A large flat head screw that substitutes for the smaller body half. >I've never used this screw, I've only used the plane for small beading >work...which it does well. I can't speak for the 50's, but on the 050C flipping the smaller part allows the far side of the cutter to still be held in its groove which, though now upside down, still lines up properly. So the cutter is still sandwiched between the two grooves. It must have been designed this way. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 127759 ---- From: "Steven Kubien" Date: 2004-01-19 02:36:27 Subject: Just build your bench. Was Workmate options Hi Kyle, I think a workmate has it's place in lots of workshops. It is useless for planing, though. As has been mentioned, it is not nearly heavy enough. Building a bench need not take as much time as you think. With a wife and 2 kids under 4yrs old, I got mine done in under 4 months. That includes losing 2 weeks because of a committee I'm on at my church, 1/2 my evenings putting kids to bed, no serious weekend time (aforementioned wife and 2 kids) and a business trip. I could easily build the same thing again in 2 weeks if my evenings were free. My bench is softwood, torsion-rod construction with an enclosed tail-vise and a shoulder vise. My 2¢ Steve Kubien ---- Start of Message 127760 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-01-19 02:55:41 Subject: Rehabing a Transitional I picked up a No. 28 yesterday cheap as a throw in with some other stuff. My first thought was to grab the full lenght 2 3/8 iron and pitch the rest but when I looked it over closely I got a suprise. though it's incredably dirty and looked like solid rust on top thwe wood is in very good shape and the rust is mostly surface. So I some of you transitional expert can give me tips on the do's and more importantly don'ts maybe I can save it. Steve ---- Start of Message 127761 ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-01-18 21:16:11 Subject: Re: edge jointing boards Jeff Gorman has an excellent tutorial --clear drawings and clear text-- on edge jointing on his site. A #7 will work fine -- if the edge is very wavy go over it a bit with a #3-5 before using the #7. http://www.amgron.clara.net John Lederer Oregon Wisconsin Alan Womack wrote: > >> I have read Don M's new article on edge jointing and I had the > >> opportunity to talk with his editor on this subject. This is > >> something I have had little success with, but, do want to learn. > >> Does anyone on the porch have anything to add? I have a Stanley > >> #7. Will this plane do the job? > >Which article is this? Edge planing is a skill I need. > >Alan > > > > >Epson Inkjet Printer FAQ: http://welcome.to/epson-inkjet > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To >unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: >http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > ---- Start of Message 127762 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-01-18 19:27:31 Subject: Re: Rehabing a Transitional Steve lineback wrote: > can give me tips on the do's and more importantly don'ts maybe I can save it. > Don't know from expert, but one thing you need to know. Whether or not they cut slots in the frog, it ain't adjustable. Just lay a straightedge down on the body where the blade goes and adjust the frog to that same plane. Namely,one continuous line. Lock it down and forget about it. If it won't adjust, file or shim or otherwise persuade it to and nail it down tight when it does. If the mouth is now too big, patch it. If the tote fits loose, grease the frame and screw and fill the base with epoxy so it only sticks to the wood (and yeah, I'd use the green stuff here 8^) and screw it back down until it sets. Otherwise, when you get it tuned up like you would any other plane, you'll like it fine. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 127763 ---- From: "Mike Guenther" Date: 2004-01-19 03:40:10 Subject: Re: Minor gloat Thanks Bob. Try as I might, I can't discern any other info stamped into the lead that was poured around the brass retaining pins. I'm hoping with some careful cleaning of the blade, I can find some more info. The jappaning on the body is about 80%. For it's size, it's a heavy bugger, got some heft to it. Mike Guenther in the foothills of S. Carolina...Go Panthers ---- Start of Message 127764 ---- From: "Mike Guenther" Date: 2004-01-19 03:48:40 Subject: re: taking a break from shoptime - I've got questions >>One question I have is about one of the lathe chisels I have. It's not mentioned in the Conover book, and I don't even see that Sorby makes one (from various catalogs). It's a spear point, kind of like a marking knife. One side is flat, and the other side has two bezels to form the spear point. What would I use this for? << I'm no expert, but I think what you're describing is what's called a parting tool. like if you were turning a box and you wanted to separate the lid from the box. Mike Guenther in the foothills of S. Carolina...Go Panthers ---- Start of Message 127765 ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-01-18 19:56:07 Subject: [Re: [oldtools] Just build your bench. Was Workmate options] Steven Kubien wrote: > I think a workmate has it's place in lots of workshops. It is > useless for planing, though. As has been mentioned, it is not > nearly heavy enough. > My bench is softwood, torsion-rod construction with an enclosed > tail-vise and a shoulder vise. Good to know since planing is what I'm planning. I'm thinking 2x4 or 2x6 fir laminated top. Many are divided as to whether torsion rods are necessary, so I am too. Wisdom seems to be either glue 2 boards at a time and you don't need the rods, or glue 'em all at once and use rods. Not sure why I couldn't glue all at once and not use rods, though. (I'd use kiln-dried lumber and clamps while drying.) The base has me thinking. "Bob and Dave’s Good, Fast, and Cheap Bench" uses 4x8 ledgers while other designs get by with less. If I knew I was staying put for awhile, I'd go for mass. If I knew this bench will turn out so good I'd want to take it with me when we split for the country, I'd go for easy disassembly. If I was smart, I'd make it so massive, but so effortlessly, that I wouldn't mind leaving it behind. (Kind of like the t*bl*s*w). I have collected quite a few links of other folk's benches and will be reviewing those. Hopefully, most links will still work. As much as I'm glad this list is not hosted on Yahoo eGroups, one good thing you can do there is have a repository for pictures. It'd be nice, for example, to have a gallery of y'alls benches that stayed in one place. Cheers, Kyle Accardi ---- Start of Message 127766 ---- From: "Lawrence H. Smith" Date: 2004-01-18 22:56:36 Subject: Re: I'm Beginning to See the Light Shellackin', Jackin', Paddy writes: >I've got adequate light to say the least. In short, it improves the >ability to >hone your tools, check for flat/square, and most importantly, detect and deal >with surface/finish defects. IMO, natural light, and even better, indirect >natural light is the best. If you can at all arrange for shop windows, do it >for the very practical reason that it will improve your shop in far more ways >than the Emersonian (American author - not much in favor of drudgery, Richard) >aesthetics one might assume. Yeah. Light is good, natural light is Real(ly) Good. When I joined the list, I had some space in an olde New England mill (you could tell it was olde, because it had windows). Nice light. Eventually the rent went up and the neighbors (yuppifiying) became unpleasant to be around when I was trying to get work done. Didn't help that it was located at a short distance in miles but a long way in lights that always seemed to be red from home, plus I had land by that point. So I moved out, temporarily storing a bunch of stuff in el-cheapo sheds on my land as I was going to quickly get the real shop up. ...time passes... Nevermind exactly how long _that_ was (sigh), this year the shop is finally becoming a reality, and I've posted a few reports on progress from time to time. One of the amusing contrasts of the structual insulated panels (osb-foam-osb sandwich making strong, insulated wall) to normal construction is that you can put any reasonable size window in place after you put the walls up, so we just put up the walls without window holes. About the time I was needing to get concrete in place for the floor (delayed before the walls went up due to 15 days of relentless rain) I cut out 5 of an eventual 6 large windows in the south wall - 3ftx6ft (.92m x 1.84m). Up to that point the downstairs had just a man-door opening and a garage door opening, and was vaguely depressing. Whacking those large window openings made a _gigantic_ difference in the way the place felt (it also let the concrete truck poke its nose in to pour the floor). Today, I got the framing in place to get the garage door installed, either this week or next (depends on the door company). I also drove into the shop for the first time, having got a doorsill fabricated to permit driving over the insulated slab edge without destroying the insulation. -- -Lawrence H Smith, Librarian/Computarian for Buxton School and Woodworker -lsmith@s... Cats, Coffee, Chocolate... Vices to live by. ---- Start of Message 127767 ---- From: "Mike Guenther" Date: 2004-01-19 03:56:57 Subject: Re: Modern Workmate opinions? They're not worth a damn for planing, unless you like keeping one foot on the lower shelf and planing standing on one foot,DAMHIKT. That thing will scoot all over the place. Fortunately, my shop is quite small, so I never had to chase it too far. Mike Guenther in the foothills of S. Carolina...Go Panthers P.S....That was quite a drive-by weren't it Steve? ---- Start of Message 127768 ---- From: "Bretton Wade" Date: 2004-01-18 20:11:39 Subject: RE: taking a break from shoptime - I've got questions Mike suggests that my spear point lathe chisel is a parting tool. > I'm no expert, but I think what you're describing is what's called a > parting tool. like if you were turning a box and you wanted to separate > the lid from the box. Nope, there's a parting tool in the bundle, but this looks like a spear point chisel. Scott Grandstaff has (off-list) suggested I have a spearpoint scraper used for face work. -- Bretton Wade (aka Noz Moe King) in Bellevue, WA ---- Start of Message 127769 ---- From: "Bret Rochotte" Date: 2004-01-18 23:27:39 Subject: RE: taking a break...skew? Hello; Sounds like a skew to me. Bret Bret and Wendy Rochotte New Bremen, Ohio rochotte@b... ---- Start of Message 127770 ---- From: "Bret Rochotte" Date: 2004-01-18 23:32:50 Subject: Whatizit? Hello; I bought a tool box a few months ago and this item was in it: http://mypeoplepc.com/members/cwanimal/toolpixs/id1.html Its cast iron, chrome, or nickel plated. I thought it might be a tool rest for a grinder. The tool box was once owned by a window repairman. I thought I'd ask in case its an orphaned tool part., Bret Bret and Wendy Rochotte New Bremen, Ohio rochotte@b... ---- Start of Message 127771 ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-01-18 20:33:08 Subject: Re: Triple Patent date Stanley Plane worship gary may wrote: > So my point, if I have one, may be a message to Newbies: You don't > *need* a Type 11 Stanley to plane wood, much less for your entire > lineup to be from a specific vintage. You need a complete and intact > plane from the "classic era," (or some contemporary or modern > equivalent in that range or better), and most of the rest will be up > to you. I've been meaning to add my 1cent as an absolute newbie. Nice old tools are difficult to find here in Oregon (USA). I don't do ebay nor auctions. As far as the modern Stanleys go, the two block planes I've fettled are just great. The bull nose rabbit plane worked okay out-of-the box, but took some effort to make even better. Can't speak to the bench planes, though. Been lucky enough to find those in the wild, though you sure don't trip over them when you leave the house. Don't think I could even bring myself to pick one up by its nasty plastic handles, of course they are replacable. Cheers, Kyle Accardi ---- Start of Message 127772 ---- From: Mike Duchaj Date: 2004-01-18 22:48:03 Subject: Re: taking a break from shoptime - I've got questions Hi Bretton, I was perusing a book that uses unspeakable methods for turning. The author is WJ Wooldridge. He uses his spearpoint as a parting tool, but also finds it useful for other purposes. On small work, he uses it similarly to the skew chisel. For bowl making he uses it to remove waste most efficiently. H also uses it for V cuts. He considers it the "general all purpose tool." Hope this helps. Bretton Wade wrote: > Mike suggests that my spear point lathe chisel is a parting tool. > Scott Grandstaff has (off-list) suggested I have a spearpoint scraper > used for face work. According to this guy, Mike and Scott are both right. So, do you have a spring pole or treadle lathe? I think my bodger's bench will be suitable to do spring pole duty when necessary. Mike Duchaj Did some non-galootish woodworking today. Still have all my fingers. ---- Start of Message 127773 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-01-18 22:56:55 Subject: Re: taking a break from shoptime - I've got questions Bretton, You're not going to find another one of those _____ planes in a family attic, or anything like that are you? Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bretton Wade" P.S. I don't how well this will go over, but I'm going to England for a conference in about two weeks... ---- Start of Message 127774 ---- From: Paul Lalonde Date: 2004-01-18 21:19:11 Subject: Re: I'm Beginning to See the Light I definately second (third?) the importance lighting issue. I moved into my shop ( http://www.atelierlalonde.com/?cat=4 ) over Christmas, and the sheer volume of light feels like it's revitalised my work. Add enough space to turn boards around - this is my first shop with more than 10 feet of width - and I can't believe the productivity level. The move from basements to real space is incredible. Most of my light comes from north-west facing skylights and north and east facing 4'x6' windows. The two sets of double man-doors are both half-glass, which helps a lot too. Then for complete overkill my electrician supplied me 4 8' fluoerescents with daylight bulbs. I get what seems like sunny orange light even in the darkest of winter. There are *no* shadows on my bench and reading mortice gauge markings has never been easier - I did a door for an arts and crafts style glass-fronted bookcase with 32 m&t's and nothing was sweeter than always seeing the layout lines without having to squint. I also had a 6' overhanging gable installed on the shop to make a work space outside for the shaving horse and the small forge - this being an adult instead of a long-term student really rules :-) Tomorrow the bandsaw moves in: http://www.atelierlalonde.com/?cat=3 Paul Lawrence H. Smith wrote: > Up to that point the downstairs had just a man-door opening and a > garage door opening, and was vaguely depressing. Whacking those large > window openings made a _gigantic_ difference in the way the place felt > (it also let the concrete truck poke its nose in to pour the floor). > > Today, I got the framing in place to get the garage door installed, > either this week or next (depends on the door company). I also drove > into the shop for the first time, having got a doorsill fabricated to > permit driving over the insulated slab edge without destroying the > insulation. ---- Start of Message 127775 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-01-18 21:27:12 Subject: Re: Triple Patent date Stanley Plane worship Kyle; I wish I wrote that, but it was Tom Holloway---so, you don't do ebay or go to auctions, are you advertising in the personals?---waiting for the tools to approach you in a singles bar? They say that if you do the things you like to do you'll meet others who like to do those things; I wonder if that goes for spending lots of time in the shop? join the PNTC---meeting in your hood 2/7---GAM --- Kyle Accardi wrote: gary may wrote: So my point, if I have one, may be a message to Newbies: SNIP Kyle sez--- Nice old tools are difficult to find here in Oregon (USA). I don't do ebay nor auctions __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127776 ---- From: "Bretton Wade" Date: 2004-01-18 21:52:06 Subject: RE: taking a break from shoptime - I've got questions Finally - 1 out of... 18 people got it. I'm gonna look, that's for sure. :) -- Bretton Wade (aka Noz Moe King) in Bellevue, WA > -----Original Message----- > From: Frank [mailto:dilloworks@s...] > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 8:57 PM > To: oldtools > Subject: Re: [oldtools] taking a break from shoptime - I've got questions >=20 > Bretton, >=20 > You're not going to find another one of those _____ planes in a family > attic, or anything like that are you? >=20 > Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bretton Wade" > P.S. I don't how well this will go over, but I'm going to England for a > conference in about two weeks... >=20 >=20 >=20 > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=3Doldtools ---- Start of Message 127777 ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 2004-01-19 01:09:49 Subject: Re: Cleaning old planes Michael C. wrote: >Now, I pose the question to the group. Does anyone else use soap and >water? (Other than Paddy?) > >I have to admit, I'm intrigued by the possibility. I'm getting somewhat >tired of the hassle involved with mineral spirits and its cleanup, rag >handling, etc. I use waterless handcleaner (not the stuff with pumice in it) to get really nasty snarf off of old planes and then maybe some detergent and hot water. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a...) Will Work For Tools The Galoot's Progress Old Tools site is at: http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/galtprog.html ---- Start of Message 127778 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-01-19 07:46:55 Subject: RE: Modern Workmate opinions? : -----Original Message----- : From: Mike Guenther [mailto:milegu1@y...] : Sent: 19 January 2004 03:57 : To: oldtools : Subject: Re:[oldtools] Modern Workmate opinions? :=20 :=20 : They're not worth a damn for planing, unless you like keeping=20 : one foot on the lower shelf and planing standing on one=20 : foot,DAMHIKT. That thing will scoot all over the place.=20 : Fortunately, my shop is quite small, so I never had to chase=20 : it too far. I think it was in a Reader's Hints & Tips that I saw that somebody had = rigged up a wire cable in a 'Y' formation to tie his Workmate to the = floor. The vertical of the 'Y' included a fence wire tensioner. Jeff --=20 Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net=20 ---- Start of Message 127779 ---- From: "Eric Coyle " Date: 2004-01-19 07:29:58 Subject: another dryburgh joins the pile... anuther druburgh woodie joined the pile tonite http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3267089941&ssPageNam- e=ADME:B:SS:US:1 For those Canucks who might be interested, the N.E. Hope stands for North Easthope, near London Ont. Over Xmas, found myself in Ottawa where I had the privilege to meet with Robt Westley (?sp) at his home and obtain a draft copy of the third edition on CDN planemakers (which includes a heck of a lot more info on the Dryburgh plane making family) Spent a pleasant afternoon with Robert, and saw and grokked a coupla 18 Century makers marks, held some wickedly huge moulding planes, and hoped I can retain a tenth of the tidbits of info that he relayed. One interesting plane that he showed me had "owners marks" from three known collectors. Curious eh? Anyway, whole bunch more data on dryburghs is going to be available in the third edition which will certainly be available through the Mclaughlin Woodworking Museum in Gananoque/Kingston ontario soon Had a great time with him. Eric in Calgary ---- Start of Message 127780 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-19 09:44:10 Subject: Re: Cleaning old planes Michael campbell wrote: > > I have read your page Jeff; good stuff. > > Now, I pose the question to the group. Does anyone else use soap and > water? (Other than Paddy?) > No - but I don use "Swarfega", a degreasing hand cleanser on the UK market. http://www.deb.co.uk/ukswarfega/ I assume there are equivalents in other countries. It doesn't (so far ;-) seem to damage japanning (or whatever Stanley/Record/Marples/Woden use). BugBear ---- Start of Message 127781 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-19 09:54:34 Subject: Re: Modern Workmate opinions? Workmate's are wonderful, versatile, helpful little beasties. You can have mine when you (etc). But they're awful for vigorous planing. BugBear ---- Start of Message 127782 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-19 09:52:01 Subject: Re: Ken Roberts Publishing Company - Errata - Alzheimer's. . For some reason, this didn't make it to the list on Friday, - all my babble goes without problem - important msgs get lost.. =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F In the best traditions of the Alzheimer's society, my fusty grey matter led me up yet another blind alley (backstreet going nowhere, Paddy) .. when I said . . . >I've been wracking (sp) my poor old befuddled brain to remember why I >ken'd the Roberts name, and of course now I have it - he's the cheery >chappie I spoke to at the bit of Sheffield University to which he endowed I was, as Don McConnell kindly and privately pointed out, thinking about Ken Hawley. ho hum, 50 percent of the name was right. Apologies to all the Ken's involved, and to our ListMoms for the waste of bandwidth, and to our subscribers. and - well, you get the idea. Humbled, headed homewards, but on the track of airdried English Beech in 3" planks at GBP 18 per c.f. for the new improved bench top. Richard Wilson Brain dead in Northamptonshire. . . ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 127783 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-19 10:20:25 Subject: Re: Cheap Planes scott grandstaff wrote: > ... and also believe it is easier for a newbie to purchase a new plane > which > > he/she knows is complete and undamaged as a way to get his/her feet > wet in fettling a plane... So far (I think) 3 options have been suggested 1) flea market/yard sale/Ebay; the problem here is lack of evaluation expertise 2) Modern cheap crud; the problem here is ultimate quality is "constrained" 3) Modern tool of high quality; problem here is cost. There's one more option - sedon hand tool dealer of good reputation; essentially paying the dealer his expertise, and thus mitigating the problem of option (1). BugBear ---- Start of Message 127784 ---- From: sepost@i... (Scott Post) Date: 2004-01-19 06:13:43 Subject: Fence on center reed or flute I'm in the conceptual stage for a piece of furniture that will require the use of a center reed or flute (haven't decided yet) on a 2" or so wide board. In looking through the few wooden plane references I have I don't see fences on these planes, rather they're used with a batten. It seems like a bottom mounted fence such as on a moving fillister would be useful. It could be removed for use with a batten on wider boards so the only reasons I can come up with for why they weren't made with a fence are the added expense of the fence and the necessity for a wider plane blank. Should I go ahead and make the plane with a fence or am I missing something? -- Scott Post sepost@i... http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/ Who designs his furniture around the need to make a new plane... ---- Start of Message 127785 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-19 07:00:33 Subject: Re: Cheap Planes BugBear writes : >There's one more option - sedon hand tool dealer of good reputation; >essentially paying the dealer his expertise, and thus mitigating >the problem of option (1). Except then you find yourself with the problem of picking a reputable dealer, off the net most likely, and then buying based on a short written description. In all cases other than buying high-quality new, you have to accept that you're going to make mistakes and it's going to cost you. But you'll learn and then you'll save a bundle if you take the trouble to go after the old tools yourself. So start with low-cost stuff and move up to the expensive goodies once you know what you're doing. If you're lucky enough to have a tool-collecting club with meets nearby (I'm not), that would certainly be the best route. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 127786 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-01-19 07:59:46 Subject: Re: taking a break from shoptime - I've got questions > Scott Grandstaff has (off-list) suggested I have a spearpoint > scraper used for face work. Richard Raffan has also popularized what amounts to a very pointy beading tool for spindle work. Could be that as well but I've never seen it listed as part of a set of tools. Too bad you can't post a photo. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 127787 ---- From: pedger66@j... Date: 2004-01-19 08:28:22 Subject: Re: butternut/chestnut Galoots, Well NOW I'm confused. (I'm used to it). The only "butternut" I've had in the shop is the load I made the globe stand I tol' you about. Long time ago I was at an old primitive sawmill. They had a stack of old boards that were weathered a uniform grey. The guy said they were walnut. I bought a few and they were,indeed, walnut under the grey. I went back to get more and a different guy said<,"They're white walnut." To me this meant butternut, but I thought he was wrong based on what I had gotten before from the same stack. Later I surfaced one of these and I found what I made the globe stand out of. It is like I described "butternut" in previous post: hard, heavy, interesting figure and beautiful tan color. It's almost as hard as hickory, but it's not hickory. Now, I'm wondering what it really is! Anyone... anyone? Phil E. ---- Start of Message 127788 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-01-19 08:54:47 Subject: Re: butternut/chestnut > color. It's almost as hard as hickory, but it's not hickory. Now, > I'm wondering what it really is! Anyone... anyone? The game of common names is forever full of glitches, especially when compared across large geographical areas. This is one of those problems as many people will call butternut, white walnut. Unfortunately, they also use both of these words in other parts of the world for some species of hickory. Truth is, this common name dichotomy crosses/confuses two separate genera of trees (Carya -hickories and Juglans - walnuts). This URL will show you the confusion and my guess is that your version of butternet is a hickory. Around here, butternut looks like walnut that's been bleached. It's a favorite of wood carvers wanting something a bit harder than basswood but it's still easily carved with hand chisels. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=white%20walnut Hope this helps. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 127789 ---- From: "Tod Herrli" Date: 2004-01-19 09:07:05 Subject: RE: Fence on center reed or flute Scott, I would think it would depend upon your intended use. A fence would be very useful if you always cut the profile the same distance from the edge. If you want the option to move it around, use a batten. Or better yet, you could make a wedge arm fence with ebony wedges. That way you'd never finish any furniture, you'd be making planes all the time. Tod Herrli > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Post [mailto:sepost@i...] > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 6:14 AM > To: oldtools > Subject: [oldtools] Fence on center reed or flute > > > > I'm in the conceptual stage for a piece of furniture that will require > the use of a center reed or flute (haven't decided yet) on a 2" or so > wide board. In looking through the few wooden plane references I have > I don't see fences on these planes, rather they're used with a batten. > It seems like a bottom mounted fence such as on a moving fillister would > be useful. It could be removed for use with a batten on wider boards so > the only reasons I can come up with for why they weren't made with a fence > are the added expense of the fence and the necessity for a wider plane > blank. > > Should I go ahead and make the plane with a fence or am I missing > something? > > -- > Scott Post sepost@i... > http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/ > Who designs his furniture around the need to make a new plane... > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > ---- Start of Message 127790 ---- From: "Steve from Kokomo" Date: 2004-01-19 09:13:56 Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [oldtools] Pliers type Saw Set John R. Wilson said: > I need help here too! Since you long time porchites started talking > about this mysterious Stanley 42X, I have searched in all of my rust > purchasing haunts (and yea there are many) as well as on this > electronic technological Sears and Roebuck catalogue and I can not find > this tool. I really really want one;-) Keep looking. This doesn't qualify as a gloat, but I did find one: http://tinyurl.com/2k9dc Now I just hope the description is more accurate than the title.... -- Steve - another Kokomo galoot ---- Start of Message 127791 ---- From: "Steve from Kokomo" Date: 2004-01-19 09:27:45 Subject: Re: Modern Workmate opinions? Kyle Accardi said: > Anyone have the "new" 425 model [Workmate] as seen here: My ancient (30 years) workmutt with cast aluminum superstructure parts has a plywood top. This came in very handy a few a years ago when it began to delaminate a bit. Injections of yellow glue, clamps, and cauls and it's as good - well, mediocre - as new. If this new one is MDF/particle board, I'd have reservations. Also, I'd set it up and do the twist ('60s gyrating dance, Jeff) on it before I bought it. I do that annually when I'm hoisting my salamander (power propane heater, Paddy) onto the garage loft for the summer. I'm sure the heater and I are close to 300 lbs (136 Kg, Wolfgang). -- Steve - another Kokomo galoot ---- Start of Message 127792 ---- From: "John Truxell-Svenson" Date: 2004-01-19 10:00:00 Subject: Re: Cheap Planes Paul Pedersen wrote on 01/19/2004 07:00:33 AM: > Except then you find yourself with the problem of picking a > reputable dealer, off the net most likely, and then buying > based on a short written description. Actually, that describes a well-known auction site better than it does a good dealer. With a reputable dealer, you can always call/write with what you are looking for, what condition you need it to be in, and what you are willing to pay (I think the term for a user is "middlin' dollah"). A good dealer can do a better evaluation than a new user about condition and how much work it would be to tune, and even if it isn't listed, the dealer can keep an eye out for you if it isn't an item he would normally pick up. You could try the same thing with e-b@y, but it seems that many of the sellers are only doing hand tools as a sideline to beanie babys and magic crystals. There are a bunch of good guys dealing tools part- or full-time, both on and off this list; both kinds have made me completely happy. Just another perspective--take it for whatever your maximum bid was. /jvs ___________________________________________________________ John Truxell-Svenson, Northern Virginia ---- Start of Message 127793 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-19 07:08:45 Subject: Re: taking a break from shoptime - I've got questions And since I haven't actually seen the tool, I will venture another guess: It could be a skew chisel which will cut in either direction. I made one such tool for small beading. On Sunday, January 18, 2004, at 08:11 PM, Bretton Wade wrote: > Mike suggests that my spear point lathe chisel is a parting tool. > Nope, there's a parting tool in the bundle, but this looks like a spear > point chisel. > > Scott Grandstaff has (off-list) suggested I have a spearpoint scraper > used for face work. > -- Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 127794 ---- From: "CheekyGeek" Date: 2004-01-19 07:55:54 Subject: Re: Modern Workmutt opinions? What is this "Workmate" you all are referring to??? Newbies to the list can be forgiven, (because it isn't one of the terms mentioned in the FAQ) but that ingenious device (that has a chapter devoted to it in the Scott Landis Workbench book) has a long and glorious tradition of being referred to as a "workmutt" here on the Porch. (At least as early as '96). This information may be useful to you if you are looking for posts about them in the list archives. I don't know the exact history of the use of the word and if it was invented here, or a carryover from the prior wreck.wood discussions, but I do seem to recall a particularly humorous story involving of unintentional workmutt modification involving Paddy, and a saw. : ) Regarding opinions on the things: I don't think much of the modern ones that I have seen. If the bases and legs are bent sheet metal and the top is made of particle board, you can have it. I found an older one at a garage sale for $25 (and gladly paid it) that is larger than today's versions. It has a sort of i-beam aluminum base and heavier gauge metal legs. The top is made of multi-ply. It's a heavy beastie, but that is a good thing. But I'd add my voice to those that say you won't want to use one for planing. You'd be chasing it around the shop. I like to make bases (with a big cleat in the bottom that gets gripped by the workmutt jaws) for things like my mitrebox, my weldon vise, etc. (things that I may not need every day, so don't want to waste permanant shop space for). If you can afford both a bench and a workmutt, you'll probably find lots of uses for one. But if you can't, the $50 or so might be better spent on a real bench vise (I got a decent one on a FMM for $25). I'd also throw a vote in for a quick and dirty bench that uses torsion box base pieces held together with threaded rod. You can build the entire base for under $80 (and that's if you don't have any spare 2x4s lying around). Throw an old solid core door (salvaged from some old building remodeling) on top and you've got an easily moveable, break-down bench that you can do some serious work on. Save building a fancy dream bench for when you feel more settled. Darren Addy Kearney, Nebraska ---- Start of Message 127795 ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 2004-01-19 11:09:21 Subject: Re: Modern Workmate opinions? At 02:47 PM 1/18/2004 -0800, Kyle Accardi wrote: >Anyone have the "new" 425 model as seen here: Regarding the durability of newer workmates: The MDF comprising the work surface of mine has remained stable and flat for fifteen years. I could replace it with a dollars worth of baltic birch or more MDF. If I were in a hurry to have a workbench and didn't have a workbench on which to build one, I'd buy or nail together a bench-top and mount it to a ledger on a wall, supporting the front with legs cobbled on or with supports returned diagonally to the base of the wall, supporting the bench-top like a large shelf. Bolt on a vise or two and you're in like flint. ---- Start of Message 127796 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-19 11:09:34 Subject: Re: butternut/chestnut Hi Phil and all, >Well NOW I'm confused.<>snipped<><><> Some info: Butternut http://www.yumahardwoods.homestead.com/butternut.html The Butternut, sometimes called the White Walnut, is smaller than the Black Walnut. Similar to its relative, this tree prefers rich, moist soils and is found stream bottoms and ravine slopes. The wood is soft and weak, and is less sought after than that of the Black Walnut. It is used somewhat for furniture and interior finish. Historically, early settlers used the husks and inner bark to make orange or yellow dye. The edible nuts are sweet and oily, hence the name. Hickory http://www.righteouswoods.net/hickory_hardwood_pics.html Bitternut Hickory The bark is smoother than bark on either the Shagbark or Shellbark Hickories. Still, it is fissured and marked with interlacing ridges. The tree grows on moist or wet soils in bottomlands and uplands. Sometimes it can be found on drier slopes of hills. The wood is somewhat lighter and weaker than in other hickories. It is used for crates and boxes, and for fuel and for smoking meats. Mockernut Hickory The gray bark of this tree is marked with branching ridges and deep furrows. The twigs are stout and reddish-brown to grayish-brown in color. This tree grows well on rich, moist, well-drained soils of upland areas, and sometimes is found on flood plains. It occurs in various kinds of hardwood forest and often is found growing with oak trees. It almost always occurs in small numbers compared to other species of trees. As with the Shagbark Hickory, the wood of this tree is hard, strong, tough and elastic, and is used in handles for tools and in athletic equipment. The unusually small kernels from the nuts are sweet and edible. Pignut Hickory The firm, gray bark, sometimes smooth, also may be marked in a sort of diamond pattern by shallow furrows and narrow ridges. This tree grows well in fairly rich, well drained to dry soils. It occurs with other hickories and with oaks, characteristically on hillsides and ridges. As with other hickories the wood of this tree is tough and strong. It is used for tools and athletic equipment. The nuts of this particular hickory, unlike some of the others, are bitter and scarcely edible. Shagbark Hickory The distinctive, shaggy bark, conspicuous on tall straight trees, gives this species its name. It grows well in both wet and dry areas, but prefers well-drained soils. It commonly is found in association with oak trees. The wood is hard, strong, tough and elastic, and is used in handles for tools and in athletic equipment. The wood also makes excellent firewood, and often is used in smoking meat. As with other edible nuts, squirrels compete with humans for this fruit. Shellbark Hickory The bark of this tree is similar to that of the Shagbark Hickory, but often not quite as shaggy. The fruit is larger than other hickories in Ohio. This is a big tree and it prefers wet, fertile bottomland. The wood is similar to that of the Shagbark Hickory and is used in much the same way Later Jonathan ---- Start of Message 127797 ---- From: hb Date: 2004-01-19 08:20:31 Subject: Re: Modern Workmate opinions? Got a new one from the inlaws for Christmas a few years back (2 years, Jeff) and it has worked really well as long as I take into consideration it's limitations caused by it's small size and light weight. Mine was greatly improved by placing a couple of pieces of wood across the lower braces and then placing a 45 pound olympic plate on them. The extra 45 pounds really helped. I haven't had the need to do any heavy duty planing on it yet though. In general, it's one of the most hanbdy tools that I own. HB, Reading PA, contemplating the acquisition of some old surveying tools to put an end to a greedy and foolish neighbor's land claim.... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127798 ---- From: hb Date: 2004-01-19 08:31:27 Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [oldtools] Pliers type Saw Set I just picked one up a little while back at a flea market. Got it for $4.00. It was easier to find than a saw vise or a saw. Still haven't found either that were worthwhile yet. I better find a visse soon though cause my one serviceable saw is quickly becoming dull.... HB - Reading PA looking at the snow preserved in a nice layer of ice from the freezing rain we got yesterday.... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127799 ---- From: "CheekyGeek" Date: 2004-01-19 08:40:41 Subject: re: GIT workbench Hey, I was just stumbling around that thing called "internet" and found this page that contains a great little GIT-sized bench. (The author did it to prototype his plans for a fullsize bench, so you big bench builders might find something of interest here too): http://www.imaging.robarts.ca/~amulder/wood/p.bench/ Darren Addy Kearney, Nebraska ---- Start of Message 127800 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-19 16:58:25 Subject: Timber taxonomy - was Re: [oldtools] butternut/chestnut Jonathan splatters us with timber descriptions based on variations of 'butternut' and 'hickory' (huge snip of interesting stuff) Our very own Don McConnell gave me a shove down a polished side path to the arms of the IWCS - International Wood Collectors Society. If you thought c*ll*ct*ng tools was slippery - go to their website / meetings and join up. I quickly realised (realized) that my timber names vocabulary was and remains hopelessly simplistic. Like tools though, if you have an interest, you are inexorably sucked in. Start by trying to forget or ignore common names - most have been devised by the timber trades trying to sell one timber at the price of another - African Walnut - not walnut. 'Rhodesian Redwood' - What=3F After ignoring such nomenclature, you need to find the correct species name from your merchant - sp. Juglans will be walnut. sp Quercus =3D oak and so on. Discovering the variety from a merchant is well nigh impossible though. - do not try this at the borg. Faced by the gazillions (more than 10, Paddy) of specimens to collect, I thought I'd start with the oaks, only to discover that there are over 600 varieties on record. Not many are available commercially. For *real* identification, though, it is necessary to go to the microscopic level and examine a prepared sample. Even experts are confused. Hardwood or softwood - its all confusing. Which brings us back to the question about identity etc. Very roughly, if it looks like walnut and works vaguely like walnut, it may be described and sold as 'xxxx walnut' where xxxx could be anything - Minnesota walnut - 'Californian Walnut' - 'Malaysian walnut' best option is to visit the yard with an edged tool, and make a test, revealing something of the face grain, and appreciating the working quality - but you need a co-operative yard - else buy an offcut and test it at home. Just say (Tm) - it's a jungle in the timberyards. Richard Wilson IWCS member in good standing. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 127801 ---- From: cantos@s... Date: 2004-01-19 10:07:14 Subject: Re: [Re: [oldtools] Just build your bench. Was Workmate options] Bugbear probably has the best set of workbench links I've ever seen. http://www.geocities.com/plybench/bench.html > I have collected quite a few links of other folk's benches and will be > reviewing those. Hopefully, most links will still work. I have the space for it, if anyone wants to take me up on it. I'm sure there have been a couple other people offer as well. But by all means, please feel free to send photos and captions/info, I'd be glad to drop them onto the site. It'd be nice, for > example, to have a gallery of y'alls benches that stayed in one place. > > Cheers, Kyle Accardi Paul Morin Calgary, AB ,CDA www.cranialstorage.com/wood ---- Start of Message 127802 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-19 17:08:42 Subject: Workmutt type study? IS there one=3F IIRC - some UK chappie invented the workmutt, and made a quality job, using cast sections, and a dual height arrangement which made it particularly useful (though not for planing) By the time I bought mine ( >25 years makes it an OldTool - yes=3F ) the design was sold to B&D, he was a millionaire (in GBP) and the cost engineers had made the bottom legs from a folded sheet. The quality and utility has seemed to decline since. But I'd suggest that the earlier models are worth looking out for. Can anyone state whether the move to sheet fabrication from alloy castings added to the weight=3F It would be interesting to have a type study though - there must be millions of the little fellows around the western world, and judged by the sudden arrival of look-alikes - the patents must have run out. Anyway As regards planing - Mine does a splendid job of holding a door upright to be fitted to its frame. nip it lightly by the overhanging top to keep it upright, and plane towards the mutt. place a block under the door to give clearance, and use a No 4 or block plane with a short nose to plane towards the ground to trim for height. planing for cabinet work - what others said - use it as a base for making the M&T's for a bench from 4x4 softwood - *then* you can plane.. Richard Wilson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 127803 ---- From: Roger Date: 2004-01-19 11:17:05 Subject: Re: Fence on center reed or flute Far be it from me to discourage anyone from making thier own planes and I know this will get shot down by some people on the list, but here goes... The #55 has reeding cutters and if I remember right in the manual it shows how to use them with the long rods, cam rest and fence for reeding the middle of a board. The reeding cutters were not "standard" and are kind of pricy. Of course for a board as narrow as yours you could get away with just using the short rods and the fence. I woudl nopt hesitate to use a #55 for this task as long as the grain was not too squirrely (gnarly). Roger in Al who loves and uses his #55...and #45s too! Scott Post wrote: >I'm in the conceptual stage for a piece of furniture that will require >the use of a center reed or flute (haven't decided yet) on a 2" or so >wide board. In looking through the few wooden plane references I have >I don't see fences on these planes, rather they're used with a batten. >It seems like a bottom mounted fence such as on a moving fillister would >be useful. It could be removed for use with a batten on wider boards so >the only reasons I can come up with for why they weren't made with a fence >are the added expense of the fence and the necessity for a wider plane >blank. > > ---- Start of Message 127804 ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-01-19 09:20:56 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Woodwright's Shop] re: Woodwright's shop on DVD. >From the man himself... (Not that this is news to anyone, but I had to do the "I got an email from Roy Underhill" gloat...) -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Woodwright's Shop Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 11:56:03 EST To: michael_s_campbell@y... Hi Michael, No DVD version yet. Lots of requests, but nobody to deal with it!!! Soon, I hope, soon. Sorry. Aieee! Roy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127805 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-19 12:29:03 Subject: Re: Cheap Planes >snipped>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >With a reputable dealer, you can always call/write with what >you are looking for, what condition you need it to be in, >and what you are willing to pay (I think the term for a >user is "middlin' dollah"). (Long rant) After reading Restoring, Tuning & Using Classic Woodworking Tools by Michael Dunbar, I went on the hunt for an 8" Spofford style brace. After a Google search I wound up on the doorstep of one Sanford Moss. He offered to send me the brace (an 8" Fray & Pigg with unusually large pewter rings) for my inspection. Long story short, Sandy introduced me to oldtools Standard Terms: "Over the years of old tool hawking on the internet, a de facto set of standard sale conditions have been adopted by many of the email dealers. These terms have come to be known as "OldTools Standard Terms"." OldTools Standard Terms are as follows: http://www.brendlers.net/oldtools/oldtools.html#Terms This transaction confirmed what I was already starting to realize. The value and quality of the people who sell and use these old tools, far exceeded the quality of the tools themselves (in most cases*). Sandy became a valuable resource, answering all my questions, sometimes in lengthy fashion, and quickly became my SGFH. (*reference to a few Market Place of the World dealers/sellers) To conclude, the best place for a newbie to get oldtools, is by supporting fellow galoots. They will always accurately describe the tools in their forsale lists, and answer any questions that you may have. In short you get what you pay for, no surprises. FAQ III. Where do I get old tools? http://www.brendlers.net/oldtools/oldtools.html#Acquiring Best Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 127806 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-19 13:03:07 Subject: Re: Timber taxonomy - was Re: [oldtools] butternut/chestnut V2VsY29tZSB0byBhIFdvcmxkIG9mIGNvbmZ1c2lvbiwgYW5kIEkgZG9uJ3QgZXZlbiBrbm93 IGlmIA0KdGhpcyBsaXN0IGlzIGNvbXBsZXRlLiBJIHRoaW5rIGlmIEkgaGFkIHRocmVlIGxp ZmV0aW1lcywgSSANCndvdWxkbid0IGV2ZW4gdW5kZXJzdGFuZCB0aGUgZmFtaWx5IEp1Z2xh bmRhY2VhZQ0KDQpIaWNrb3J5IA0KDQpGYW1pbHk6IEp1Z2xhbmRhY2VhZSANCg0KSGlja29y eSAoQ2FyeWEgc3BwLikgaXMgY29tcG9zZWQgb2YgYXQgbGVhc3QgMTYgc3BlY2llcyANCm5h dGl2ZSB0byBBc2lhIFs0XSwgQ2VudHJhbCBBbWVyaWNhIFs0XSBhbmQgTm9ydGggQW1lcmlj YSANClsxXSkuIFRoZSB3b3JkIGNhcnlhIGlzIGZyb20gdGhlIEdyZWVrIG5hbWUgZm9yIG51 dC4gVGhpcyANCmdyb3VwIGNhbiBiZSBzcGxpdCBpbnRvIHRoZSB0cnVlIGhpY2tvcmllcyBh bmQgdGhlIHBlY2FucyANCmJhc2VkIG9uIG1pY3JvYW5hdG9teS4gKEIuIHBhcHlyaWZlcmEp LiBPdGhlciBiaXJjaGVzIG9mIA0Kc29tZSBjb21tZXJjaWFsIGltcG9ydGFuY2UgYXJlIHJp 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c2xpZ2h0bHkgb3Igbm9ucmVzaXN0YW50IHRvIGhlYXJ0d29vZCBkZWNheS4gDQoNClByZXNl cnZhdGlvbjoNCkV4dHJlbWVseSByZXNpc3RhbnQuDQouDQoNClVzZXM6DQpUb29sIGhhbmRs ZXMsIGZ1cm5pdHVyZSwgY2FiaW5ldHJ5LCBsYWRkZXIgcnVuZ3MsIGRvd2VscywgDQpzcG9y dGluZ2dvb2RzIChpbmNsdWRpbmcgYmFzZWJhbGwgYmF0cywgc2tpcyBhbmQgYXJjaGVyeSAN CmVxdWlwbWVudCksIGZsb29yaW5nLCB2ZW5lZXIsIHBseXdvb2QsIGZ1ZWx3b29kLCBjaGFy Y29hbC4gDQoNCg== ---- Start of Message 127807 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-01-19 10:28:24 Subject: Re: Cheap Planes Hi guys-- A bona-fide tool dealer will guarantee your satisfaction. You're pretty safe buying by mail from anyone who does, be he J Q E'bay or himself(TmPL). OT terms, like everything else galoot, are the best available. best; GAM in Seattle > To conclude, the best place for a newbie to get oldtools, is > by supporting fellow galoots. They will always accurately > describe the tools in their forsale lists, and answer any > questions that you may have. In short you get what you pay > for, no surprises. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127808 ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-01-19 10:34:35 Subject: Odd tote question I got a type 8 or 9 #8 from ebay, and so far it's the oldest plane I have. Oddly, the tote and knob on it seems to be in better condition (and nicer grained) than ANY of the others I have (various sized Stanleys of types 13-19). One odd thing about this tote though is that it's shaped correctly, but the very top curve by the horn is... unfinished. The top of the tote itself (the surface into which the brass nut is recessed) looks like it's been sanded down through the lacquer or something. This ring a bell with anyone? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127809 ---- From: Roger Rosner Date: 2004-01-19 14:53:10 Subject: WTB: a heap of chairmaking tools A buddy and I just signed up for a class on building Windsor chairs here in warm sunny Pittsburgh, PA. Needless to say, this has resulted in a frenzy of tool acquisition. Being efficient types, we've combined our lists of desired items below. However, our efficiency knows limits: we each want one of each tool. Tool sharing is unsanitary anyway. spokeshave draw knife 35mm #3 sweep gouge spoon bits 3/8, 7/16, 9/16, 5/8 tapered reamer scorps compass planes travishers adzes 7mm #11 sweep veiner bevel gauge several dividers - all kinds splitting wedges mallet froe bowl gouges - 3/8 & 1/2 Thanks! Roger ---- Start of Message 127810 ---- From: "Steve from Kokomo" Date: 2004-01-19 15:19:39 Subject: Re: WTB: a heap of chairmaking tools Break out your wallets: http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=273&1=274&2=-1 Everything else is easier to find. Roger Rosner said: > A buddy and I just signed up for a class on building Windsor chairs > here in warm sunny Pittsburgh, PA. Needless to say, this has resulted > in a frenzy of tool acquisition. -- Steve - another Kokomo galoot ---- Start of Message 127811 ---- From: "Bernard, Eric" Date: 2004-01-19 15:52:06 Subject: RE: Workmutt type study? Richard asked about a workmutt type study.... Not sure if you could use it to date your mutt - but Scott Landis has a whole section on the beloved in his book "The Workbench Book". Incidentally the chappie who was inspired to design this thing was a fella' by the name of Ron Hickman. If I remember right he was employed as a mechanical designer for Lotus - the car manufacture - at the time. Eric Bernard Newton, MA ...who still has 222 oldtool emails to get through.. ---- Start of Message 127812 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-01-19 15:57:59 Subject: Re: Timber taxonomy - was Re: [oldtools] butternut/chestnut On January 19, 2004 1:03 pm, you wrote: > Welcome to a World of confusion, and I don't even know if > this list is complete. I think if I had three lifetimes, I > wouldn't even understand the family Juglandaceae Relative to this thread it's very incomplete as the family also has the genus "Juglans" which includes the things that people often use 'walnut' to describe. Your point, however, is made crystal clear...wood names make your brain hurt :-) > Hickory > > Family: Juglandaceae > > Hickory (Carya spp.) is composed of at least 16 species -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 127813 ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-01-19 14:07:44 Subject: RE: Workmutt type study? On 19 Jan 2004 at 15:52, Bernard, Eric wrote: > > Incidentally the chappie who was inspired to design > this thing was a fella' by the name of Ron Hickman. > If I remember right he was employed as a mechanical > designer for Lotus - the car manufacture - at the > time. Yes, and he invented it because he was doing some home repair project and using a Windsor chair as a sawbench - until he cut right into the seat while focusing on cutting to the line. The Workmate was designed to solve this problem by providing a work surface that could be used in place of one's good furniture. And we presume that _almost_ no one would inadvertently cut into a Workmate, although we know better around this porch. -Ken Mary Gillespie-Greenberg mary@c... ---- Start of Message 127814 ---- From: "Mike Guenther" Date: 2004-01-19 21:58:19 Subject: Re: Modern Workmate opinions? >>HB, Reading PA, contemplating the acquisition of some old surveying tools to put an end to a greedy and foolish neighbor's land claim....<< Not to burst your bubble, but you'd better know where the corner pin locations are. If it's anything like around here, people usually pull up the white pvc marking poles, then you have kick around and try to stub your toe against the doggone things. I use a transit all the time to layout house foundations. I also have to try to find the property lines to make sure the house has enough set-back. Even though I find the pins and "shoot" the line and I'm sure of everything, I still call in the surveyor just to be safe. Nothing worse than to have a large house half built and have someone come up and tell you that you have to move it. Also, surveyors are usually certified or liciensed and know where all the pins are. ---- Start of Message 127815 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-19 17:16:21 Subject: Re: Cleaning old planes SGV5IExhcnJ5LA0KDQo+U28uLi5Kb25hdGhhbi4uLi5leHBsYWluIHRvIG1lIGhvdyB5b3Ug Z2V0IHlvdXIgb2xkIHdvb2RlbiANCj5wYXJ0cyANCj5sb29raW5nIHNvIG5pY2UgOi0pDQoN Ck5vIHNlY3JldCwgYWZ0ZXIgY2xlYW5pbmcgSSB1c2UgZnVybml0dXJlIHBvbGlzaC93b29k IA0KY29uZGl0aW9uZXIgKHRoZSBQb3JjaCBjcmluZ2VzKS4gSXQncyBhIG5hdHVyYWwgbGVt b24gb2lsLiBJIA0Kd291bGRuJ3Qgc3ByaXR6IGl0IG9uIHlvdXIgZmlzaHN0aWNrcywgYnV0 IGl0IGRvZXNuJ3QgaGF2ZSANCmFueSBzaWxpY29uZSBvciBvdGhlciBqdW5rIG1peGVkIGlu dG8gdGhlIGJyZXcuIFdpcGUgDQpvbi4uLndpcGUgb2ZmLiBUaGUgc2Vhc29uZWQgcm9zZXdv b2Qgc2VlbXMgdG8gbGlrZSBpdC4uLmFuZCANCmRyaW5rcyBpdCB1cCBsaWtlIGEgdHdvIGh1 bXBlZCBjYW1lbC4gSSBhbHNvIHdpcGUgY2FtaWxsaWEgDQpvaWwgb24gYWxsIGV4cG9zZWQg YXJuJy4NCg0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy53ZWltYW4uY29tL2Z1cm5pdHVyZS5odG1sDQpXZWltYW7C riBDcmVhbXMgJiBQb2xpc2hlcyBhcmUgdGhlIG5hdHVyYWwgY2hvaWNlIGZvciANCnByZXNl cnZpbmcgYW5kIGNvbmRpdGlvbmluZyB5b3VyIHdvb2QgYW5kIGxlYXRoZXIuIE91ciANCmV4 Y2x1c2l2ZSBmb3JtdWxhcyBjb21iaW5lIHNpeCBuYXR1cmFsIG9pbHMgKExlbW9uLCBXYWxu dXQsIA0KU2VzYW1lLCBTYWZmbG93ZXIsIEF2b2NhZG8gYW5kIEFsbW9uZCkgdG8gcHJvdGVj dCwgY29uZGl0aW9uIA0KYW5kIHByZXNlcnZlIGZpbmUgZnVybml0dXJlLiBUaGVzZSB0aGlj aywgcmljaCBmb3JtdWxhcyBzb2FrIA0KZGVlcCBpbnRvIHdvb2QgcG9yZXMgdG8gZ2VudGx5 IGNsZWFuLCBtb2lzdHVyaXplLCBub3VyaXNoIA0KYW5kIHByZXNlcnZlIHlvdXIgd29vZCDi gJMgcHJldmVudGluZyBmaW5lIGFudGlxdWVzIGFuZCANCmZ1cm5pdHVyZSBmcm9tIGJlY29t aW5nIGR1bGwsIGRyeSAmIGxpZmVsZXNzLg0KDQoxLiBDYW4gc2lsaWNvbmUgaGFybSBteSBm dXJuaXR1cmU/DQpTaWxpY29uZSBjYW4gcHJvZHVjZSBhIGhpZ2ggc2hpbmUgYnV0IGl0IGNh biBibG9jayB0aGUgDQp3b29k4oCZcyBwb3JlcywgZXZlbnR1YWxseSBjYXVzaW5nIHRoZSBm aW5pc2ggdG8gY3JhY2suIEluIA0KYWRkaXRpb24sIHNpbGljb25lIHNlZXBzIGRlZXAgZG93 biBpbnRvIHRoZSB3b29kIGFuZCBvZnRlbiANCmNhbm5vdCBiZSByZW1vdmVkLCBtYWtpbmcg cmVmaW5pc2hpbmcgZXh0cmVtZWx5IGRpZmZpY3VsdC4gDQpUaGF04oCZcyB3aHkgbmF0dXJh bCBjbGVhbmluZyBwcm9kdWN0cyBhcmUgYWx3YXlzIGJlc3QgZm9yIA0KZmluZSB3b29kLiBX ZWltYW7CriBXb29kIEZ1cm5pdHVyZSBwcm9kdWN0cyBORVZFUiBjb250YWluIA0Kc2lsaWNv bmUuDQoNCj5BbSBJIHdyb25nIGluIGNvbmNsdWRpbmcgZnJvbSB0aGlzIHRoYXQgaXQncyBu b3QgdGhlIHBsYW5lIA0KYnV0IHRoZSANCj5sYWNrIG9mIGtub3dsZWRnZSB0aGF0IGdvdCBp biB0aGUgd2F5PyAgDQoNCkl0IHdhcyB0aGUgcGxhbmVzIGZhdWx0LiBVbW1tbSBub3QgcmVh bHkuIFRoZSBjdXR0aW5nIGlyb24gDQp3YXMgY29tcGxldGVseSByb3VuZGVkIG92ZXIgZnJv bSBleHRlbmRlZCB1c2Ugd2l0aG91dCANCnNoYXJwZW5pbmcuIEluIGZhY3QsIGJhc2VkIG9u IHRoZSBsZW5ndGggb2YgdGhlIGJsYWRlLCBJIA0Kd291bGQgZ3Vlc3MgdGhhdCBpdCBoYWQg bmV2ZXIgYmVlbiBzaGFycGVuZWQgZXZlci4gQW55d2F5LCANCndoaWxlIEkgdGhvdWdodCB0 aGF0IEkgaGFkIGdyb3VuZCBvdXQgdGhlIChiYWNrYmV2ZWw/KSwgSSANCmRpZG4ndCBnbyBm YXIgZW5vdWdoLiBBIGNvdXBsZSBtaW51dGVzIG9uIHRoZSAnbGVjdHJpYycgDQpncmluZGVy IGRpZCB0aGUgdHJpY2suIEkgYWxzbyBkaWQgYSBiZXR0ZXIgam9iIG9mIA0KZmxhdHRlbmlu Zy9ob25pbmcgdGhlIGJhY2sgb2YgdGhlIGJsYWRlIHRoaXMgdGltZS4gDQoNClF1aWNrIHNp ZGVub3RlIC0gdGhpcyBtb3JuaW5nIG9uIG15IHdheSB0byB3b3JrLCBJIHN0b3BwZWQgDQph bmQgcGxhY2VkIG15IGNvZmZlZSBvbiB0aGUgc2V3aW5nIHRhYmxlIG9mIGEgc3RhdHVlIGlu IHRoZSANCmZhc2hpb24gKHVzZWQgdG8gYmUgY2FsbGVkIGdhcm1lbnQpIGRpc3RyaWN0ICwg d2hpbGUgSSBwdXQgDQpvbiBteSBnbG92ZXMuIEkgbXVzdCBoYXZlIHBhc3NlZCB0aGlzIHN0 YXR1ZSAxMDAncyBvZiB0aW1lcy4gDQpGb3IgdGhlIGZpcnN0IHRpbWUgSSBub3RpY2VkIHRo ZSBmb290IHBvd2VyZWQgKHRyZWFkbGU/KQ0Kc2V3aW5nIG1hY2hpbmUgdGFibGUuIFRoaXMg YXJlYSB1c2VkIHRvIGJlIGFsbCBnYXJtZW50IA0KbWFudWZhY3R1cmluZywgYW5kIEkgd29u ZGVyIGhvdyBtYW55IHRob3VzYW5kcyBvZiB0aGVzZSBvbGQgDQpzZXdpbmcgdGFibGVzIGFy ZSBpbiB0aGUgbGFuZGZpbGwgb24gU3RhdGVuIElzbGFuZC4NCg0KUmVnYXJkcw0KSm9uYXRo YW4NCg== ---- Start of Message 127816 ---- From: "Marcus Sly" Date: 2004-01-19 23:36:43 Subject: Bio - Marcus Sly, and 'hello' Hello Galoots, I've been lurking here for a while, and thought it was time I introduced myself. I'm new to this galooting business - in fact new to anything to do with making things out of wood. Had a strange and unexpected conversion about six months ago when the thought popped into my head that perhaps it would be fun to get some pieces of wood and turn them into useful, nice looking objects. No idea why I suddenly thought this after a lifetime of avoiding anything to do with making things (apart from the odd crappo DIY effort), but there you go. So I bought myself some saws and chisels and such and spent four months practicing joints (after I'd learned to saw straight that is..). Wife must have thought I had gone quite mad. After a while I got fed up with clamping bits of wood to kitchen worktop (so did Wife), so over Christmas I got to work and made my first bench. In spite of major design flaw (don't ask) I'm pretty pleased with it, and it is a whole lot better that the kitchen work top. Boy does having a vice make things easier! Also, meals have improved since they are no longer seasoned with saw dust. We live in a very small house with no garage, so Wife calmly accepted that dining table was to be replaced with workbench and sitting room was to be converted into ad hoc workshop - how cool is my SWMBO? :-) The deal was that if we are going to eat our meals sitting at a work bench, the least I could do is build her a high stool so she can see over the top. Here it is: www.marcus-sly.info/wood I'm pretty pleased with it. Actually that's an understatement. I'm besotted. I know it's nothing compared to what you experienced galoots make, but I still keep looking at it going "I can't believe I made that.." When not indulging my new obsession I teach English (to adults), the Alexander Technique, and music. Our front room contains a grand piano as well as a work bench. Feels a bit claustrophobic sometimes. I live in the UK in Bradford, Yorkshire. I'm 32, so I guess that makes me a bit of a spring chicken around here? No GITS as yet, but maybe one day soon. Anyway, thank you all for the vast amount I've learnt from reading the list so far. It has been a great help. Marcus Sly Bradford, Yorkshire, UK. ---- Start of Message 127817 ---- From: "Mike Guenther" Date: 2004-01-20 00:21:13 Subject: Re; Minor gloat...try square Solomons Bob wrote; >>Re Mike's try square with a Something 25, 1874 patent date. I believe that August was the only month in 1874 on which the 25th was a valid patent date and I find nothing in DATAMP for that date that sounds like what Mike has. Of course, there's no guarantee it's not marked with an invalid date from some other month like (my personal estimate) about 10% of the marked patent dates on tools are.<< Well, after about an hour of cleaning on my square, I found out that the patent date was actually May 23, 1874. Also, the inch numbers were only stamped into the top edge and they were a little off kilter. The actual inch markings were right on the mark, just a couple of the numbers were a little off the mark so to speak. Try as I might though, still no clue as to the maker. Does anyone have the url for the datamp? Thanks. Mike Guenther in the foothills of S. Carolina...Go Panthers ---- Start of Message 127818 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-19 17:37:05 Subject: Re: Cleaning old planes Sorry, once more without the attached text, which seems to send the server into a spasm...polishing...polishing Hey Larry, >So...Jonathan....explain to me how you get your old wooden >parts >looking so nice :-) No secret, after cleaning I use furniture polish/wood conditioner (the Porch cringes). It's a natural lemon oil. I wouldn't spritz it on your fishsticks, but it doesn't have any silicone or other junk mixed into the brew. Wipe on...wipe off. The seasoned rosewood seems to like it...and drinks it up like a two humped camel. I also wipe camillia oil on all exposed arn'. http://www.weiman.com/furniture.html http://www.weiman.com/faq.html >Am I wrong in concluding from this that it's not the plane >but the >lack of knowledge that got in the way? It was the planes fault. Ummmm not realy. The cutting iron was completely rounded over from extended use without sharpening. In fact, based on the length of the blade, I would guess that it had never been sharpened ever. Anyway, while I thought that I had ground out the (backbevel?), I didn't go far enough. A couple minutes on the 'lectric' grinder did the trick. I also did a better job of flattening/honing the back of the blade this time. Quick sidenote - this morning on my way to work, I stopped and placed my coffee on the sewing table of a statue in the fashion (used to be called garment) district , while I put on my gloves. I must have passed this statue 100's of times. For the first time I noticed the foot powered (treadle?) sewing machine table. This area used to be all garment manufacturing, and I wonder how many thousands of these old sewing tables are in the landfill on Staten Island. Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 127819 ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-01-19 19:08:44 Subject: Re: Re; Minor gloat...try square > Well, after about an hour of cleaning on my square, I found out that > the patent date was actually May 23, 1874. Also, the inch numbers were > only stamped into the top edge and they were a little off kilter. The > actual inch markings were right on the mark, just a couple of the > numbers were a little off the mark so to speak. Try as I might though, > still no clue as to the maker. Well, May 23rd is a Saturday, so there are no patents issued on that day (patents are Tuesdays only with a few exceptions from the very early years). May 26th, 1874 has one square patent listed on datamp, and it's a Stanley. There's not a patent picture on the page, but if you click the USPTO link it will display the patent papers from there (provided you have a TIFF viewer for your browser). http://www.datamp.org/displayPatent.php?number=151254&type=UT -- Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL - OTLM, ENB, FOYBIPO "Science works even if you don't believe in it..." - Penn Jillette ---- Start of Message 127820 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-19 17:03:50 Subject: Re: Bio - Marcus Sly, and 'hello' Another Yorkshireman comes aboard. Welcome, Marcus! On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 03:36 PM, Marcus Sly wrote: > Hello Galoots, > > I've been lurking here for a while, and thought it was time I > introduced > myself. > I'm new to this galooting business - in fact new to anything to do with > making things out of wood. Had a strange and unexpected conversion > about six > months ago when the thought popped into my head that perhaps it would > be fun > to get some pieces of wood and turn them into useful, nice looking > objects. > No idea why I suddenly thought this after a lifetime of avoiding > anything to > do with making things (apart from the odd crappo DIY effort), but > there you > go. > > So I bought myself some saws and chisels and such and spent four months > practicing joints (after I'd learned to saw straight that is..). Wife > must > have thought I had gone quite mad. After a while I got fed up with > clamping > bits of wood to kitchen worktop (so did Wife), so over Christmas I got > to > work and made my first bench. In spite of major design flaw (don't > ask) I'm > pretty pleased with it, and it is a whole lot better that the kitchen > work > top. Boy does having a vice make things easier! Also, meals have > improved > since they are no longer seasoned with saw dust. > > We live in a very small house with no garage, so Wife calmly accepted > that > dining table was to be replaced with workbench and sitting room was to > be > converted into ad hoc workshop - how cool is my SWMBO? :-) > > The deal was that if we are going to eat our meals sitting at a work > bench, > the least I could do is build her a high stool so she can see over the > top. > Here it is: www.marcus-sly.info/wood I'm pretty pleased with it. > Actually > that's an understatement. I'm besotted. I know it's nothing compared > to what > you experienced galoots make, but I still keep looking at it going "I > can't > believe I made that.." > > When not indulging my new obsession I teach English (to adults), the > Alexander Technique, and music. Our front room contains a grand piano > as > well as a work bench. Feels a bit claustrophobic sometimes. I live in > the UK > in Bradford, Yorkshire. I'm 32, so I guess that makes me a bit of a > spring > chicken around here? No GITS as yet, but maybe one day soon. > > Anyway, thank you all for the vast amount I've learnt from reading the > list > so far. It has been a great help. > > Marcus Sly > Bradford, Yorkshire, UK. > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 127821 ---- From: "Mike Guenther" Date: 2004-01-20 01:13:20 Subject: Re: Re; Minor gloat...try square Thanks Ralph, I thought I had the DATAMP bookmarked. I found it and found the info on it. J. A. Traut got the patent on May 26, 1874 and it was for Stanley. I could have mis-read the 26 as a 23...what happens when ya get older and probably need yer prescription lenses changed. Unfortunately, I don't have support for tiff images. Thanks again Ralph. I re-bookmarked it right next to the list. Mike Guenther in the foothills of S. Carolina, who has a bet with Swmbo on the superbowl...She's for N. E. ...Go Panthers ---- Start of Message 127822 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-01-20 03:38:36 Subject: Re: Triple Patent date Stanley Plane worship Tom has a point about what you need to do a lot of jobs. A lot of planes will do the woods most of us work with if the are sharp and well tuned. Much as I like the Type 11 when I broke my only Type 11 no. 5 i slaped the knob on a Type 14 and there ain't no difference in use. Low knob high knob, Ginger Mary Ann, less filling tastes great, You pays your money and you takes your choice. Steve ---- Start of Message 127823 ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-01-19 22:48:44 Subject: RE: Cleaning old planes If you want a good detergent for degreasing stuff, Dawn is the best I've seen at the supermarket. There's also the Clean Team's "Red Juice"* which is usually diluted 10:1 for household cleaning. Straight, it pulled off the lacquer/grease mix that my kitchen cabinets were covered with. http://www.thecleanteam.com/ Industrial degreasers are probably even more powerful, but at that point, I tend to reach for a suitable solvent instead. True (I hope) story: Dawn detergent, in concentrated, hot form during production, used to eat through the welds on stainless steel tubing at the Proctor & Gamble plant. They had to upgrade the pipes to a better grade (316 or 347, probably -- a ChemE told me this story). Ken Meltsner In Alameda, CA for two nights and days. * No connection to The Clean Team folks other than using their products for more than 10 years. ---- Start of Message 127824 ---- From: Wesley Groot Date: 2004-01-19 22:26:21 Subject: Re: Bio - Marcus Sly, and 'hello' Welcome Marcus, Yes, you're mad, quite mad. But nice work regardless! Cheers Wes in Chili Chicago. On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 05:36 PM, Marcus Sly wrote: > Hello Galoots, > > I've been lurking here for a while, and thought it was time I > introduced > myself. ---- Start of Message 127825 ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-01-19 23:07:53 Subject: WTB Crotch grain mahog veneer Greetings GG's I shopped around the City today for crotch-grain mahogany veneer...HAH there were some 8 X 12" pieces in a plastic bag.... some boards that I could have resawn that were CLOSE to being big enough, but as of tonight I'm striking out. I need 4 pieces at least 41" long by 10" wide to restore a bed .... could use more to restore a drop leaf table. Can't find Tom Volpe's operation cuz my hardware upgrade cost me all my bookmarks. Private replies would be great unless the Porch would benefit from knowing of sources. Tom in FREEZING Minnesnowta ---- Start of Message 127826 ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-01-19 23:27:45 Subject: Re: Whatizit? The picture nudged something in the back of my mind and it has finally surfaced. In my grade school we had windows that had a lower pane, smaller than the window, that would tilt open. This sort of looks like the mechanism for holding them open at a given angle. John Bret Rochotte wrote: >Hello; > >I bought a tool box a few months ago and this item was in it: > >http://mypeoplepc.com/members/cwanimal/toolpixs/id1.html > > >Its cast iron, chrome, or nickel plated. I thought it might be a tool >rest for a grinder. The tool box was once owned by a window repairman. >I thought I'd ask in case its an orphaned tool part., > >Bret > >Bret and Wendy Rochotte >New Bremen, Ohio >rochotte@b... > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > ---- Start of Message 127827 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-20 09:10:33 Subject: Re: Bio - Marcus Sly, and 'hello' Marcus Sly wrote: >Hello Galoots, > Hello Marcus! >...that perhaps it would be fun >to get some pieces of wood and turn them into useful, nice looking objects. > That's unusual: most of us just use wood to test out our new acquisitions (or is that just me?) >So I bought myself some saws and chisels and such and spent four months >practicing joints (after I'd learned to saw straight that is..). > Wow. Diligently practising the basics first is often recommened, but seldom done. >We live in a very small house with no garage, so Wife calmly accepted that >dining table was to be replaced with workbench and sitting room was to be >converted into ad hoc workshop - how cool is my SWMBO? :-) > Extremely. Does she have a sister? www.marcus-sly.info/wood Neat joinery - although did is *really* need to be quite that strong? BugBear ---- Start of Message 127828 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-20 09:20:39 Subject: Re: WTB Crotch grain mahog veneer AFAIK The *only* place for veneers is what used to be Crispin & Co in London. Now recombined with the rest of the family and moved to box like premises, but a search under Crispin and veneers and London or 'Capital Crispin' should find them. They ship worldwide - unless, of course you have already arranged a springtime transport(wink) - *the* place for special, rare, exotic - much patronised by the restoring fraternity. Richard Wilson and for UK galoots, yes, theres Art Veneers, and the guys in South Leeds, and even Craft supplies carries a few. . . . . ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 127829 ---- From: "Peter McBride" Date: 2004-01-20 20:24:05 Subject: putting a steel base on gunmetal planes GGs, Over the past few weeks since Christmas I found a couple of planes that I always watch out for. Gunmetal infill planes with poor infills, and mouths too wide. These are candidates for restoration and a steel base. I REALLY enjoy breathing new life into these sad old souls. My ultimate aim is to have a set of brass or gunmetal planes with the steel souls, and other brass and gunmetal tools to fill a tool chest that is still on the drawing board. (plenty of brass on and in the chest, inlay, stringing, corners, hinges, escutcheons, etc.) Decided this time to take some pictures of my progress and share it with the group. I soldered the steel bases on last Sunday night, and will trim them down and cut the throats over the next few weeks as time allows. Click on the link below to see the progress so far. http://www.petermcbride.com/plane_restore/ or under interesting topics on my web page. http://www.petermcbride.com/oldtools.htm Regards, Peter In Melbourne, Australia where the cool change has just come through thankfully. ---- Start of Message 127830 ---- From: "danny kaye" Date: 2004-01-20 11:14:20 Subject: re: Modern Workmate opinions? I have a 536 and use it a lot for site work, it is perfectly possible to plane on it - you just need to learn to plane with one foot on the workmate to hold it down, I jointed some 3 foot long edges with my #7 on sunday with no problem at all danny in wet, cold nottingham ---- Start of Message 127831 ---- From: "danny kaye" Date: 2004-01-20 11:16:38 Subject: my first gloat my friend managed to score me a record quick adjust p52 vice for free!!! they were throwing it out where he works!!! in as new condition too, now I really need to build the workshop so I can build the real workbench and get on to building some projects.... ---- Start of Message 127832 ---- From: "danny kaye" Date: 2004-01-20 11:18:53 Subject: bio while I am at it I should really update the bio I am a lecturer at nottingham trent university, originally in math and programming but now in multimedia. when I was three my master cabinet maker uncle gave me a miniature tool kit which, to my shame, I destroyed and I have non of it left:( He lost all hope for me but by the time I was 10 I was fixing broken things and scrounging tools wherever I could, another tool kit was boughtb for me when I was 12 and I have been sliding down the slope ever since. I love all tools even ailed demons but my real love is making long shavings with my small set of planes, my favourite being the spear and jackson #4 from the same tool kit I have had since I was 12 I wish I was in the us as y'all seem to see a lot more saled of various sorts, tho e*ay is fast bankrupting me so maybe it is better that I don't have more sources for rust :) danny ---- Start of Message 127833 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-20 11:31:13 Subject: Re: Bio - Marcus Sly, and 'hello' Eeyup Marcus. Sit thysel' dahn ovver theer ont' settle and keep thi lugs pinned back and thas'll reeight enjoy thysen. Well - you all knew I'd have to greet another Yorkshireman galoot didn't thee=3F Whatever happened to our Keighley galoot who was making Mackintosh chairs=3F= still there=3F In the days B.P. (Before Porch) we lived in Burley-in-Wharfedale, tucked under Rombalds moor (otherwise known as Ilkley Moor, and sung about, Paddy) - ovver t' hill from Bradford, Cleckhuddersfax, and them reight big places. But back to the plot. . . If you're needing some quality timber, head over to Guisely, and the reclamation yard there - they resaw old timbers from demolished mills and you can obtain wood like they don't grow any more - you might need to dredge Lake Superior for similar vintage materials. For one of the widest choices in the UK, head yee to t' Great North Road and the Roman town of Boro'bridge - John Boddy's ( a fellow IWCS member) is a major yard dealing with the amateur, and will cut to size - and they have numerous teach-ins and so on at weekends. Just take a cheque book. (The galoot creed) >Our front room contains a grand piano as >well as a work bench. I'd saw the piano legs down a bit - those grand pianos are a tad high for use as sawhorses.. Welcome! Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 127834 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-20 11:39:33 Subject: Re: bio danny kaye wrote: >...the spear and jackson #4... > > I take it the quality is OK; the brand is well reputed. I knew S&J did chisels and hammers, as well as their famous saws, but I didn't know they did Bailey-a-likes as well. BugBear ---- Start of Message 127835 ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 2004-01-20 07:46:10 Subject: A Saw Sight? Galoots, This is a new one to me. Anyone else ever heard of a "nib" on a saw called a "sight"? Perhaps we have a new use description for the unknown use of the nib? *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * *********************************************** ---- Start of Message 127836 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-20 06:56:18 Subject: Re: Pliers type Saw Set Thanks again. I'll probably have an easier time running across something like that Disston Triumph than the most sought after saw set around. Yeah, I have heard good things about Tom Law. I will probably still do most of my woodcutting on my forrest woodworker 60T blade, though. But I pick up the handsaws for the small jobs or ones that need extra care or finishing an inside 90 degree cut. Of all the old tools I enjoy using the chisels the most and there is no replacement for them. Now at least next time I run across a saw set at a sale I can gauge how useful it will be to me, at least to some extent. It's something I will pick up in time, eventually, this whole saw-sharpening business. > [Original Message] > From: Bruce Love > To: oldtools > Date: 1/17/2004 9:03:26 PM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] Pliers type Saw Set > > (snip - John has lots of questions about saw sets) > > First, the 42X is the most popular Galoot choice - but a saw can be set > with other saw sets so start with what you have. Just keep your eyes > open... The clamping mechanism just makes it easier to make sure you > hit the tooth cleanly as it holds the set in place while you apply the > pressure. I am not sure about price as I passed on the only one I > ever saw which was $28 in an over priced antique store (but I am > REALLY cheap about stuff like this). My recollection is that is was > clearly marked 42 with an X after it - but don't get fooled because > there are a lot more plain Stanley 42 (with no X) saw sets in the world. > Check the mechanism. > > Along with some others, I have a Disston Triumph saw set that I haven't > used too much use (yet), but, it also has a second piston to hold the > blade (call it the Disston piston - couldn't let that pass by). One > difference is it is more the "pliers" type as the 42X is the "pistol > type" (and I only paid $3 for it). > > The best place to go for info is Pete Taran's site (www.vintagesaws.com). > There is a write-up on setting a saw in the "Library section." Also, he > has the directions for the Stanley 42X there as well (at the very bottom). > > That said, the short answers to some of your questions are: > (1) you can use the same set for cross-cut and rip. > > (2) 15ppi gets trickier - that depends (I think) somewhat on the size of > the plunger and maybe the distance to the anvil (for just slight sets). > Although I think some sets could be "tuned" for it by filing the plunger > a little (never did this - someone jump in if I am way off base). > > There was a discussion about this very recently (during which the 42X was > crowned the king of saw sets). > > And, since I just recently acquired it (and have seeeeeen the light) - if > you don't have Tom Law's saw sharpening video...it is worth the investment. > > > Bruce Love > Pipersville, PA > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 127837 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-01-20 07:59:31 Subject: blacksmith & carpentry shops A friend of mine posted a bunch of photos of the blacksmith and carpentry shops at Pioneer Village that's north of Phoenix. I thought some might want to take a look. http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=3525783&uid=649445 -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 127838 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-20 07:03:05 Subject: RE: frame saw proportions If I am thinking about the right item I have an old one of these and lots of experience using it, also, and my two cents on this would be to leave one of the two ends extra long. It should "hang down" over the blade by 6-8 inches or so as a handle. The other one end is cut flush with the blade. The one I have is pretty big and you can tell by the turnbuckle that this thing may even have been handforged. I've never seen a turnbuckle look like this one. I am guessing you are building these for hobby use, though, correct? I think mine is more for doing firewood chores because the teeth are quite coarse, very few per inch... that kind of thing. I find it probably the most comfortable of all my handsaws to use and I've taken it camping with me. > [Original Message] > From: Timothy Collins > To: oldtools > Date: 1/17/2004 2:25:53 PM > Subject: [oldtools] frame saw proportions > > > > > > I need a few recommendations for proportions on a frame saw. I'm not > copying an old one, so I can't measure. > > I've made one with 10 inch frame and 11 inch blade, and it doesn't look > quite right. (used old 6 TPI bandsaw blade) > > I'm getting ready to make 4 as gifts, and have 27 inch (potentially) long > blades (the cheep wood craft frame saw blade). > > I would like to make the blade about 15 inches long, so how tall should the > frame ends be? > > thanks > > tim > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 127839 ---- From: "Eric Beaupre" Date: 2004-01-20 07:27:04 Subject: RE: WTB Crotch grain mahog veneer http://www.certainlywood.com/Typesamples/crmahog.htm I don't know what sizes they have available or what you're looking to spend but at least it's a source. Eric -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Johnson [mailto:thjo@f...] Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 11:08 PM To: oldtools Subject: [oldtools] WTB Crotch grain mahog veneer Greetings GG's I shopped around the City today for crotch-grain mahogany veneer...HAH there were some 8 X 12" pieces in a plastic bag.... some boards that I could have resawn that were CLOSE to being big enough, but as of tonight I'm striking out. I need 4 pieces at least 41" long by 10" wide to restore a bed .... could use more to restore a drop leaf table. Can't find Tom Volpe's operation cuz my hardware upgrade cost me all my bookmarks. Private replies would be great unless the Porch would benefit from knowing of sources. Tom in FREEZING Minnesnowta ---- Start of Message 127840 ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 2004-01-20 08:46:01 Subject: Wanna see the 20 Yard Increment Tool? Galoots, A week or so ago I asked for info on a tool, strange to me, that seems to measure in 20 yard increments. I got some good answers from you all. Now that the auction is over, take a look. < http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3264201061&category=13876 > I'm still not sure what it is. *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * *********************************************** ---- Start of Message 127841 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-01-20 08:53:17 Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [oldtools] Pliers type Saw Set HB said... > I better find a visse soon > though cause my one serviceable saw is quickly > becoming dull.... > With all this talk about Workmutt's, and your search for a saw vice, I thought I would pass along what I did until I found my first saw vice (like any tool, they seem to show up in waves.) Below is a really, really bad picture (ignore all the mess in the background), but I think it makes the point. http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/workmuttsawvice.jpg I was inspired by some directions for a wooden saw vice that I saw somewhere. The hardest part is getting everything in place when inserted the saw, but fortunately it is long enough that you don't really have to move the saw much once it is in place (and I just move to the other side of the Workmate when sharpening from the other side). I was going to put a small strip of wood on the inside near the bottom to help get extra leverage to get a tight fit at the top - but, I was aided in this case by two rather warped pieces of pine that I didn't know what else to do with... Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 127842 ---- From: Timothy Collins Date: 2004-01-20 09:12:25 Subject: RE: frame saw proportions Thanks for the reply's. I did mean to say "bowsaw" or I guess "Turning saw" rather than "frame saw". I will be using one 700mm blade to make a resaw type frame saw, but I haven't seen much "creative" in those, in terms of curves etc in the end handles. The bowsaw web pages were helpful. thanks tim ---- Start of Message 127843 ---- From: Ren Tescher Date: 2004-01-20 08:31:20 Subject: Re: Modern Workmate opinions? Hi, my name is Ren. (half bored audience responds, "Hi Ren") and I own 2 Workmutts (someone in audience gags...) The first one is cast iron or aluminum (aluminium-Jeff) bought at auction for $5. It had set outside for quite a while (quite a while-Paddy) and I needed to replace one of its plywood tops as it had delaminated. A chunk of oak plywood worked okay. It sat almost unused for several months (don't make me explain that one to you-Paddy) before I really started using it. No, it is _NOT_ a workBENCH, but it is a very good sawhorse with an adjustable width saw kerf and clamp and footrest. And I enjoy working with it so much that I paid $15 at another auction for a stamped metal (newer) model. The older model is more solid, but they're both keepers. If I run across any more at auction for good price, I'll buy them for my brothers to use in their garages (carholes-Moe). So my bottom feeder recommendation is 'buy one' (or more) (at bottom feeder prices). Ren Tescher Pine Island, MN (USA-Jeff) dona nobis pacem ---- Start of Message 127844 ---- From: brucelove@c... Date: 2004-01-20 14:41:52 Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [oldtools] Pliers type Saw Set Argh!! I gave a bad URL for my bad picture. Try... http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/workmuttvice.jpg Bruce Love Pipersville, PA > HB said... > > > I better find a visse soon > > though cause my one serviceable saw is quickly > > becoming dull.... > > > > With all this talk about Workmutt's, and your search for a saw vice, > I thought I would pass along what I did until I found my first saw vice > (like any tool, they seem to show up in waves.) > > Below is a really, really bad picture (ignore all the mess in the > background), but I think it makes the point. > > http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/workmuttsawvice.jpg > > I was inspired by some directions for a wooden saw vice that I saw > somewhere. The hardest part is getting everything in place when > inserted the saw, but fortunately it is long enough that you don't > really have to move the saw much once it is in place (and I just > move to the other side of the Workmate when sharpening from the > other side). > > I was going to put a small strip of wood on the inside near the > bottom to help get extra leverage to get a tight fit at the top - > but, I was aided in this case by two rather warped pieces of pine > that I didn't know what else to do with... > > > Bruce Love > Pipersville, PA > > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 127845 ---- From: brucelove@c... Date: 2004-01-20 14:42:14 Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [oldtools] Pliers type Saw Set Argh!! I gave a bad URL for my bad picture. Try... http://home.comcast.net/~brucelove/workmuttvice.jpg Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 127846 ---- From: Louis Michaud Date: 2004-01-20 09:58:24 Subject: RE: frame saw proportions Timothy asked: >> I need a few recommendations for proportions on a frame saw. Well, it depends.... ;-) Length: To work on small pieces or big pieces? To resaw or to cut curved pieces, like a felloe (sp?). Shorter for the felloe saw longer for the resawing. For resawing, figure out your stroke length with your arms close to you then fully extended. Unless you use some upper body movements along with your stroke. If the blade is not long enough, you are not efficient. If it's too long you are not using all the blade. I like 24"-26" long blades. Some prefer more controled shorter strokes. Width: Depends on the biggest pieces you intend to resaw, also wider gives you more visual references for orientation and a ligth touch for corrections. Say 9" on each side of the blade would allow you to resaw a 1" slice off the side of a 7" wide beam and give you good feedback. So for resawing a frame saw with a frame about 18" wide by 25-26" long, measured inside the frame, works for me. Felloe saws tend to be wider. Their frames are square in proportions, at least for the ones I've seen. So their proportions would fit in a square depending on the length of the blade which would depend on the thickness of the stock to be cut. Like I said: it depends... But this works for me, YMMV. Hope this helps. Best, Louis Michaud Rimouski, Quebec ---- Start of Message 127847 ---- From: "Bramel, Jim" Date: 2004-01-20 09:57:38 Subject: RE: Pliers type Saw Set--Handyman? Here are some pictures of a Stanley Handyman I got at the flea=20 market. I really did not want it but I owed the dealer a favor=20 and took it for $5.00. Jim http://www.uky.edu/~jbram00/toolpics/saw009a.jpg =20 http://www.uky.edu/~jbram00/toolpics/saw009b.jpg =20 http://www.uky.edu/~jbram00/toolpics/saw009c.jpg =20 http://www.uky.edu/~jbram00/toolpics/saw009d.jpg =20 ---- Start of Message 127848 ---- From: "Bramel, Jim" Date: 2004-01-20 09:59:53 Subject: FW: [oldtools] Pliers type Saw Set--Handyman? I forgot something - it was made in Canada. -----Original Message----- From: Bramel, Jim=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 9:58 AM To: oldtools Subject: RE: [oldtools] Pliers type Saw Set--Handyman? Here are some pictures of a Stanley Handyman I got at the flea=20 market. =20 ---- Start of Message 127849 ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-01-20 09:26:37 Subject: Fwd: [oldtools] A Saw Sight? >Kael said; > > This is a new one to me. Anyone else ever heard of a "nib" >on a saw called a "sight"? Perhaps we have a new use description >for the unknown use of the nib? > True it could be thought of as a "sight", but how would one see the sight on the other side of the cut? Perhaps transparent wood ;-) -Rex ---- Start of Message 127850 ---- From: "Geoff Barker - Energetix Group" Date: 2004-01-20 15:19:44 Subject: RE: edge jointing boards David Charlesworth's "Furniture Making Techniques", volume 2 I think, has a good chapter called "The Method" in which he explains the detailed technique required for edge jointing. Geoff Barker ---- Start of Message 127851 ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-01-20 09:49:41 Subject: Setting fine teeth I have an English brass backed tenon saw with very, very fine teeth, somewhere in the high 20's. per inch. The saw cuts a very nice fine straight line. It seems sharp, But it binds about 1/2" into wood. So I think I need a bit more set. How the dickens does one set teeth this fine? I have been meaning to get one of those magnifying glasses on an articulating arm, and that will at least let me see what I am doing, but I am at a loss as to what to use to bend the teeth evenly. Regards, John Lederer Oregon, Wisconsin ---- Start of Message 127852 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-20 15:53:07 Subject: Re: edge jointing boards Geoff Barker - Energetix Group wrote: >David Charlesworth's "Furniture Making Techniques", volume 2 I think, >has a good chapter called "The Method" in which he explains the detailed >technique required for edge jointing. > > It's pretty much the "normal way" as describe by our or goodly Jeff Gorman. The only difference (and it's a very neat trick) is the way he uses a small adjustable square. All the old books show the square having its stock placed on the face side of the board, and the planed edge is then compared with the balde of the square. Charlesworth suggests placing the square's STOCK on the edge. By this technique the length of the blade magnifies any error, making it more apparent. Indeed, he warns against over-correction when you first use this technique. If you wish to use this technique when a board in held in a vice, a small adjustable square is helpful; either a tiny combination square, or nice double square. If the blade is long it may be inconvenient. BugBear ---- Start of Message 127853 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-01-20 08:22:41 Subject: Re: putting a steel base on gunmetal planes http://www.petermcbride.com/plane_restore/ Way to go Peter!! Good tinning, that's the ticket. You might want to look into the machine shop community around the neighborhood. Mike Yazel, who used to do the kits, actually manufactures prosthetic attachments for people and used a lazer or wire cutter (whatever-it's-called) to cut the mouths and was able to make a nano-nothing mouth for the shoulder planes very crisply. Of course, with the smoothers it's not so critical because the slot is bigger to still make a micro mouth. Just a thought. yours, Scott . Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 127854 ---- From: Bill Kasper Date: 2004-01-20 08:59:02 Subject: Re: edge jointing boards there's also an excellent discussion of edge planing in david charlesworth's "furniture making techniques"; i believe it's in volume 2. bill felton, ca On Jan 18, 2004, at 3:50 PM, Bill Rittner wrote: > The Feb issue of Popular Woodworking pg 92. ---- Start of Message 127855 ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-01-20 12:10:31 Subject: RE: putting a steel base on gunmetal planes The wire cutting technique is probably EDM -- electro-discharge machining, IIRC. Abrasive water jet is pretty cool as well for intricate cuts in soft or hard materials. Laser tends to leave a melted and quenched layer at the cut edges, as well as tapering out in thick materials. All of this is *way* off topic, although EDM is pretty low tech compared to the others (I've seen a mini-cutter used for making TEM specimens). And my knowledge of these processes is *way* out of date as well. Ken "Stuck in an office a mile away from The Japan Woodworker" Meltsner =20 -----Original Message----- From: scott grandstaff [mailto:scottg@s...]=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 10:23 AM To: oldtools Subject: Re: [oldtools] putting a steel base on gunmetal planes http://www.petermcbride.com/plane_restore/ Way to go Peter!! Good tinning, that's the ticket. You might want to look into the machine shop community around the neighborhood. Mike Yazel, who used to do the kits, actually manufactures prosthetic attachments for people and used a lazer or wire cutter (whatever-it's-called) to cut the mouths and was able to make a nano-nothing mouth for the shoulder planes very crisply. Of course, with the smoothers it's not so critical because the slot is bigger to still make a micro mouth. Just a thought. yours, Scott . Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools:=20 http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 127856 ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-01-20 09:17:26 Subject: Re: Cleaning old planes Bill Kasper wrote: > yep. just dawn soap, a scrungy sponge, and hot water. a good ten > minute soak, then a scrub, then total dry down and, triflow/wax, and > reassembly. works great. > > but i am gonna try the dishwasher, next. I might try that too, now that I have all mine cleaned... (argh!) Paddy, do you just do the wash cycle, or do you let them heat-dry in there too? I'm guessing that would accellerate rusting, no? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127857 ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 2004-01-20 11:00:55 Subject: Re: Cleaning old planes --- Michael Campbell wrote: > > but i am gonna try the dishwasher, next. > > > I might try that too, now that I have all mine cleaned... (argh!) > > Paddy, do you just do the wash cycle, or do you let them heat-dry in > there too? I'm guessing that would accellerate rusting, no? I make sure the missus is not home, which acts to decellerate my dying at the hands of a tall blonde. Actually, the one time I've done this, I took the toolish stuff out as soon as the rinse cycle completed, and then hit all parts vigorously with a hair dryer. I've also done the heat-em-up in the oven. Both resulted in no visible rust. Paddy - who went shopping with customers yesterday and brought home some big-ass (significantly large) pieces of 6/4 cherry. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127858 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-01-20 11:16:03 Subject: Re: blacksmith & carpentry shops Hey Larry Cool pix! Thanks for the tour. OK, now tell me every tiny detail you can remember about that forge? I want one in the worst way. The hood? Is it all stone except the front apron or tin lined? The bowl, how wide and how deep? and how much deeper is the tue iron set below the general bowl?? It reeks, nobody is really giving up much about the real forges, or else they've all inherited them and the knowledge is lost. I've been looking for a year or two and can't find diddly squat in the way of real knowledge. Oh, gas forges (I'm working on one of those now) sure, and portable brake drum forges you can build in an afternoon, can't get away from those things. But an honest to god, permanent masonary forge?? (Rocks I have, mud too and determination). But............ They all just shrug. yours, Scott Larry Marshall wrote: >A friend of mine posted a bunch of photos of the blacksmith and >carpentry shops at Pioneer Village that's north of Phoenix. I >thought some might want to take a look. > >http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=3525783&uid=649445 > > > -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 127859 ---- From: garrison@g... Date: 2004-01-20 14:24:19 Subject: Re: putting a steel base on gunmetal planes Peter, I was looking at your website re: soldering steel to gun metal. Great pix btw. You make it look easy. http://www.petermcbride.com/plane_restore/ I have a question on a step you mention. At your fourth and fifth picture you state the following: "The body is warmed from underneath, and fluxed and "tinned" with the solder. . . Then I do the base, heating from below, flux it and coat that surface with solder. I hold the steel with pliers and flip it over and place it on the body. Then heat again from the top and bottom until the base drops." Here's my question - It sounds like you are heating and tinning the body (OK I get that). Then you move to the new steel sole and do the same thing (I also get this). Buuuttttt are you placing the sole with the future external surface onto the now heated and soldered body? That's what it sounds like because once you heat the steel sole you "Flip it over" and place it on the body. I can see that this would make sense because that way you are continuing to keep the heat in the body as well as transferring the heat to the 1/16 inch plate of steel which otherwise might warp unbder direct heat from the torch. At least that's what I'm speculatin'. But is that really what I'm reading here? Or are you heating the steel plate somewhere else and bringing it over to the body? Scott Garrison Duluth GA ---- Start of Message 127860 ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-01-20 14:42:07 Subject: RE: putting a steel base on gunmetal planes Somewhat related technique: Fine Woodworking's _Bench Tools_ volume shows one guy soldering a plane using a stove's burner to warm everything up -- as the typical stove top probably hits 500-600 F, this might not be enough, but would get everything nicely pre-heated. Ken "Hoping to see Greg Isola's shop tonight" Meltsner ---- Start of Message 127861 ---- From: "Foster, Jim" Date: 2004-01-20 14:01:06 Subject: RE: putting a steel base on gunmetal planes I remember seeing that one. Actually, while our electric stove may be atypical, the burners do get to a dull orange heat, so it'd be easy to soft solder using it. Heck, may even be able to do easy flo hard solder. B^)=20 Jim Foster Minnesota > -----Original Message----- > From: Meltsner, Kenneth [mailto:Kenneth.Meltsner@c...] > >=20 > Somewhat related technique: Fine Woodworking's _Bench Tools_ volume > shows one guy soldering a plane using a stove's burner to warm > everything up -- as the typical stove top probably hits=20 > 500-600 F, this > might not be enough, but would get everything nicely pre-heated. >=20 ---- Start of Message 127862 ---- From: Ted Shuck Date: 2004-01-20 14:08:23 Subject: RE: putting a steel base on gunmetal planes Peter, Wow! Great technique! Soldering a new sole on a plane is a new concept to me, but you make it look easy. Later in thread, Scott asks: " are you placing the sole with the future external surface onto the now heated and soldered body?" I think what Peter is doing is placing one tinned surface directly against the other tinned surface. As long a both surfaces are well-tinned, they can be placed against each other cold. Then, the combination is heated which melts the solder between the surfaces on both tinned surfaces. As the solder seeps out, he knows that he has melted the solder and will have a good bond. I don't think it would be required to heat the upper surface at all, just the lower surface. The heat should conduct through to melt all the solder. Ted ---- Start of Message 127863 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-20 13:39:21 Subject: wtb: Studley poster Hi all, Anyone know where I can get one of the posters of the Studley tool box? Thanks. Blake (You might be a Galoot if you buy a newspaper just so you'll have something to spread over the coffee table when you take tools apart.) ---- Start of Message 127864 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-20 15:39:57 Subject: Double-iron metal rebate planes Hi All, I've been going through George Ellis' book "Modern Practical Jointery" and came across a couple of comments that I don't understand. In the chapter where he describes the various tools in the description of a Double-ironed Metal Rebate Plane (infill rabbet, Paddy), the ones with two escapements, he says : "These are intended for cleaning up hardwood rebates quickly, the front iron cutting coarse, the rear one fine ; either one can be used alone when required." So you can take two shavings at once, hogging deep at the front and then polishing up with the rear iron ?? Then in the description of the Combined Fillister and Rebate Plane of American make (Stanley No.78, Paddy) he says : "This has an adjustable fence and two beds for the cutting iron, which may be used on either the front when rebating, or the rear when fillistering." Again, ?? On the subject of the 78, I don't see someone (who's looking to get the job done) switching the iron's position. I thought the bullnose part was for stopped rebates so you can get closer, but I don't see doing a rebate, then stopping to change and re-set the iron, then finishing up at the end. The setting it back, etc, etc. So for efficiency's sake you need two, so then why a 78 in the first place ? Paul Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 127865 ---- From: "Rodgers Charles" Date: 2004-01-20 16:11:06 Subject: Ya Gets What Ya Pays For Galoots: I've been a little busy lately (well, actually a lot busy), and have been meaning to make a comment that pertains to the use of my old tools. I subscribe in digest mode at work and in message mode at home. I quickly scan 4 or 5 digests at a time, and hate to admit it but I have 500+ messages backed up in the home inbox. I recalled seeing a suggestion about Van Dykes and wanted to offer a comment. Thanks to the wonderful archive, it took me all of about 30 seconds to find Col Huck's note to Paddy, which I've snipped a bit. > I suggest you look at Van Dykes Restorers at http://www.vandykes.com. > for a number of good ideas. If you want to go that way, they have a > very good selection of wood corbels that would serve to make this > mantel distinguished from all others, and give support to the mantel. > . . . ask for their catalog. Every > woodworker needs their catalog. I just wanted to offer my less-than 2/100th of a Euro opinion on Van Dykes. I picked up the idea for the base of my sorta-mission style dining table from some pre-fab components in their catalog. Funny thing, Paddy has (or had) a pic of my table on his shellac.net website. That's coincidence funny, not humorous funny. But I digress... I mentioned in a recent post that I was assembling some barrister bookcases. Maybe I shouldn't admit this, seeing as how we ALL start with a tree and produce our own lumber, but my shop time being what it is, I decided that I need these bookcases sometime this decade so I looked around on the 'net for barrister bookcase kits. Van Dykes are reasonably priced - compared to some others such as Osceola, so I ordered a few (base, drawer, and two 14" units). Took about 10 days to get them (UPS). The drawer unit was backordered, but I had plenty to keep me busy. Lots'a clamps, eggbeater, brace with a square drive bit in it, and some geenuwine dewaxed orange Paddylac. Directions had a couple of critial measurements off (placement of door slides), missing some of the hardware, and one of the 14" unit side pieces was defective. Not real good QA on their part. The good news is that they supplied replacements with no hassle. If you're in the market, they have a long list of kits. IME, the parts need some minor work (they recommend s*ndp*p*r ;-( but I found that a card scraper works just fine!! They're solid wood (cept for oak veneer ply for the bottoms & backs). Not the cheapest way to go, but still less than what you'd pay for a comparable set at your local Ethan Allen (USofA mass marketer of "fine" furniture, Jeff/Richard/Alf/Marcus/Nuno/Peter/etc...) Charlie Rodgers Clinton, Maryland where it almost got up to freezing (32F/0C)today ---- Start of Message 127866 ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-01-20 13:13:09 Subject: Re: Double-iron metal rebate planes On 20 Jan 2004 at 15:39, Paul Pedersen wrote: > I've been going through George Ellis' book "Modern > Practical Jointery" and came across a couple of > comments that I don't understand. Modern being either 1902 or 1908, depending on which web site you visit... > So you can take two shavings at once, hogging deep at > the front and then polishing up with the rear iron ?? I am skeptical here. But I have never seen one of these double escapement rebate planes, so it may be possible to set two irons arranged fore-and-aft to contact the wood in such a way as to take shavings at the same time. Not easy, I would bet. > > "This has an adjustable fence and two beds for the > cutting iron, which may be used on either the front > when rebating, or the rear when fillistering." > > Again, ?? Fillister is a verb? I can see how beading is derived from making a bead, or rebating from making a rebate, but is a fillister an architectural element that one can make? I would have though filleting to make a fillet (a narrow, flat element, often separating two curves). Or does fillister derive from some other source? Mr. Ellis seems to have been in the UK or at least the commonwealth, so perhaps someone over there could enlighten us as to usage of this term. > > On the subject of the 78, I don't see someone (who's > looking to get the job done) switching the iron's > position. I thought the bullnose part was for > stopped rebates so you can get closer, but I don't > see doing a rebate, then stopping to change and re-set > the iron, then finishing up at the end. The setting > it back, etc, etc. So for efficiency's sake you > need two, so then why a 78 in the first place ? Certainly, reasonable people would assume that's the way the plane was intended for use, with the front position only used to get close to a corner. I do sometimes adjust the cutting of my plane to take a coarser shaving, then adjust it for a finer shaving as I amalmost done; but I don't move the iron to a different mounting position. I just loosen the cap iron, wiggle the iron a bit to get the iron projection I want, and tighten the screw back down. I don't have one of those newfangled adjuster models. You just get used to doing it with fingers and eyes.The thickness of the shaving taken depends on how far the iron projects beyond the sole, not wether it's on the front of the plane or in the middle. Maybe if we knew what fillistering was, we would understand :-). -Ken Mary Gillespie-Greenberg mary@c... ---- Start of Message 127867 ---- From: NickNaylo@a... Date: 2004-01-20 16:26:09 Subject: Re: I'm Beginning to See the Light > Lawrence H. Smith wrote: > Whacking those large window openings made a _gigantic_ difference in the way the place felt > > (it also let the concrete truck poke its nose in to pour the floor). I wasn't in my 12x 12 outbuilding shop 3 months when I had the urge to cut a new window, up on the North wall. Got an old window from the local "architechtural salvage" yard, cut out the studs with a Disston tree saw, framed up a header out of the 2x studs I cut, then drilled some holes and connected them with a compass saw, the only use, other than pumpkin cutting I've ever got out of it. Now I'm thinking about painting the shop interior white, one wall at a time. Michael-San Francisco ---- Start of Message 127868 ---- From: "Dennis Yanan" Date: 2004-01-20 21:24:41 Subject: Re: Double-iron metal rebate planes ken wrote: Maybe if we knew what fillestering was, we'd understand. per www.wordreference.com, fillister, filister, fillester ['fılıstə] noun 1 Also called: fillister plane an adjustable plane for cutting rabbets, grooves, etc. 2 Also called: sash fillister a rabbet or groove, esp. one in a window sash bar for a pane of glass [ETYMOLOGY: 19th Century: of unknown origin] IOW, a fillester is a rabbet is a rebate. I hae to admit, I wasn't sure either. Dennis ---- Start of Message 127869 ---- From: "Peter McBride" Date: 2004-01-21 08:37:14 Subject: RE: putting a steel base on gunmetal planes Ted, Scott, And others, Thanks for your kind words and comments. Ted is right, (gotta read back...I may have confused base, body, top and bottom, the plane is upside down??? will fix it if I have.) I heat and tin the body first, then the steel on the fire bricks to the left on the bench. Flip the steel over onto the body and heat from under there, then to the steel from above moving in a figure 8 motion on the steel. I don't think the steel warped any, but even if it did that heavy steel block I place on top must flatten it out. As for cutting the mouths...you heathens suggesting EDM and laser...say some prayers and seek forgiveness :-). The shoulder plane is the easy one for me. I have a perfectly galootable way, a jewellers saw with a 6/O or 8/O blade will cut about 0.02 mm, and even a 4/O blade which is the one I use daily will give me 0.04 mm. If'n I can't cut a 45mm straight slot with that saw, exactly to the right of scribed line I should give up my day job. The smoother is a little harder, haven't done one of those yet. Think I will drill and cut with a hacksaw in the area I know will have to go, then do the back of the throat from inside with a file...got plenty of them on the bench. Then work towards the front with files to suite the blade thickness. Working slowly...I can always take more out, much harder to put it back! I will probably get that to zero clearance then do the infill, and finish it when the rosewood or mahogany is in there. That will give me a "no step" route for the shavings. Regards, to all Peter In sunny Melbourne, Aust where it is hard to work on a diamond bracelet when I should be thinking of how to finish those 2 planes, or is it the other way around? ---- Start of Message 127870 ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-01-20 16:55:56 Subject: Re: wtb: Studley poster > Anyone know where I can get one of the posters of the Studley tool box? > Thanks. > > Blake > Blake Taunton Press sold them for a long time, and that is the only source I have heard of. Try their website www.tauntonpress.com Hope you find one. Chris ---- Start of Message 127871 ---- From: "Andrew Fairbank" Date: 2004-01-20 21:57:41 Subject: Re: Double-iron metal rebate planes Ken was asking: >Modern being either 1902 or 1908, depending on which web site >you visit... title page shows written 1902, three reprints between 1903 and 1907 > So you can take two shavings at once, hogging deep at the front and > then polishing up with the rear iron ?? Apparently yes - I have the picture in front of me - picture an infill shoulder plane with two irons, both identical, one fore, one aft - kind of like a Stanley 78 (metal version of a double-iron metal rebate plane, Jeff) with two blades in it. >I am skeptical here. But I have never seen one of these double >escapement rebate planes, so it may be possible to set two irons >arranged fore-and-aft to contact the wood in such a way as to >take >shavings at the same time. Not easy, I would bet. No, but recommended by the esteemed Mr Ellis. I wouldn't try it either - as the blades blunted, it would take the whole plane out of adjustment. > > "This has an adjustable fence and two beds for the cutting iron, > which may be used on either the front when rebating, or the rear > when fillistering." > > Again, ?? >Fillister is a verb? I can see how beading is derived from making >a >bead, or rebating from making a rebate, but is a fillister an >architectural element that one can make? I would have though filleting >to make a fillet (a narrow, flat element, often >separating two >curves). Or does fillister derive from some other source? Mr. >Ellis >seems to have been in the UK or at least the commonwealth, so perhaps >someone over there could enlighten us as to usage of this term. Fillister = old British term for Rebate, , commonly used when referring to windows and doors (hence sash fillister/side fillister) and not as commonly, carcases. Use the two terms interchangeably >Maybe if we knew what fillistering was, we would understand :-). Fillistering involves the use of a plane with a guiding fence. Hope that this helps, Andrew Edit: I consulted Whelan's book on planes, and a fillister (that's filletster in the US, Jeff) has a square escapement, while a rebate (that's rabbet in the US, Jeff) or housing plane (that's dado in the US, Jeff) have a round/tapered/reamed escapement Edit x 2: I sent this reply to the server and it didn't register, so this one is a cut and paste - hope that you all didn't/don't get two copies ---- Start of Message 127872 ---- From: "Andrew Fairbank" Date: 2004-01-20 22:00:54 Subject: Re: Double-iron metal rebate planes Paul asks: On the subject of the 78, I don't see someone (who's looking to get the job done) switching the iron's position. I thought the bullnose part was for stopped rebates so you can get closer, but I don't see doing a rebate, then stopping to change and re-set the iron, then finishing up at the end. The setting it back, etc, etc. So for efficiency's sake you need two, so then why a 78 in the first place ? Paul is correct - the front seat is for a stopped rebate, the centrally-located seat is for a through rebate. Of course, when you're cutting a stopped rebate, you need to cut out the first 25mm /1" by hand to allow the plane to do the rest of the work. Cheers, Andrew ---- Start of Message 127873 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-20 15:04:41 Subject: Re: wtb: Studley poster Thanks, Chris. I checked there. I can't seem to find it. Blake ---- Start of Message 127874 ---- From: Steven & Anne Nelson Fisher Date: 2004-01-20 16:26:14 Subject: Re: wtb: Studley poster Blake, If you do find a source for this poster, I'd bet more than a few galoots would buy it. Maybe some galoot can get FWW to do another run? Especially if we had a list telling 'em how many we want, etc. Does anyone know if it's still at House on the Rock in Wisconsin? Steve in Brainerd, MN On Tuesday, January 20, 2004, at 04:04 PM, Blake Ashley wrote: > Thanks, Chris. I checked there. I can't seem to find it. > > Blake > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 127875 ---- From: "Steve from Kokomo" Date: 2004-01-20 17:31:42 Subject: Re: Setting fine teeth John and GGs; I have read about (but never tried) using a screwdriver. Holding the screwdriver vertically, you put the screwdriver in every other gullet and give a little twist. If you twisted it clockwise, for example, it would bend the the tooth in front of the gullet away from you and the one behind toward you. Seems to me that you'd want to go over the skipped gullets with an identical little twist in the opposite direction. DISCLAIMER: No warranty, implied or otherwise; never tried it; YMMV; etc. etc. etc. John Lederer said: > I have an English brass backed tenon saw with very, very fine teeth, > somewhere in the high 20's. per inch. > How the dickens does one set teeth this fine? -- Steve - another Kokomo galoot ---- Start of Message 127876 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-20 17:33:42 Subject: Re: Cleaning old planes <>Michael Campbell made a new discovery<><>snip<>< > but i am gonna try the dishwasher, next. <>And another gallot thought<><>snip<><><> > I might try that too, <>and the experienced and wise galoot replied<>snip<><> >I make sure the missus is not home, which acts to >decellerate my dying at the hands of a tall blonde. I'm reminded the advice givin' me by Bill T >Go to Galoot's progress and read the story about living The >Van Down by the River. Get used to woodworking with nothing >but a Great Neck plastic-handled saw and an old Workmutt >with the little rubber foot missing off of one leveler. http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/words_of_advice.html Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 127877 ---- From: "Andrew F in Australia" Date: 2004-01-21 09:34:47 Subject: RE: wtb: Studley poster Blake, Try the Smithsonian: http://americanhistory.si.edu/toolbox/ nice links/images in the above Maybe they carry the Taunton poster but not have it listed on-line. Never hurts to ask in person (ditto Taunton Press - maybe they have a few left) Cheers, Andrew Anyone know where I can get one of the posters of the Studley tool box? Thanks. ---- Start of Message 127878 ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-01-20 15:09:11 Subject: Re: Double-iron metal rebate planes On 20 Jan 2004 at 21:57, Andrew Fairbank wrote: > > Fillister = old British term for Rebate, , commonly used when > referring to windows and doors (hence sash fillister/side fillister) > and not as commonly, carcases. > > Use the two terms interchangeably Thanks for the input, although admittedly this makes Mr Ellis's statement even more perplexing. Use one position for rebating, the other for fillistering, and by the way rebating and fillistering are the same thing. Glad we could clear that up :-). -Ken Mary Gillespie-Greenberg mary@c... ---- Start of Message 127879 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-20 16:26:07 Subject: filletster I once tried to find out what a filletster is. I seem to recall that it is a rebate cut on the far side of the board from the plane. Blake ---- Start of Message 127880 ---- From: wayne.a.anderson@a... Date: 2004-01-20 23:27:20 Subject: nickel plating Anyone out there do nickel plating? I have a part that needs it. Please ping me off-line. OTC: it's a trammel point body. TIA Wayne Anderson ---- Start of Message 127881 ---- From: NickNaylo@a... Date: 2004-01-20 18:37:15 Subject: More nice wood from the Borg... Galoots, both gentle and otherwise, I won't say which Home Depot it is, because its fast becoming a goldmine of unsorted figured wood. This is the tiger stripe maple that came out of trim bin. http://members.aol.com/nicknaylo/images/maple.jpg.jpg my earlier score involved some figured birch from the same bin. http://members.aol.com/nicknaylo/images/birch.jpg some of which made it into my workbench aprons and vise. http://members.aol.com/nicknaylo/images/wboiled.jpg That's three pretty boards in 2 trips to the Borg. Now what to build, what to build..... Michael-San Francisco (visions of scaled down piecrust tables just a dancin' in the noggin) ---- Start of Message 127882 ---- From: "Andrew F in Australia" Date: 2004-01-21 10:41:05 Subject: RE: Double-iron metal rebate planes Andrew wrote > > Fillister = old British term for Rebate, , commonly used when referring to windows and doors (hence sash fillister/side fillister) and not as commonly,carcases. > > Use the two terms interchangeably Then Ken wrote: Thanks for the input, although admittedly this makes Mr Ellis's statement even more perplexing. Use one position for rebating, the other for fillistering, and by the way rebating and fillistering are the same thing. Glad we could clear that up :-). Now Andrew writes to clear up perplexity: Only difference is a fillister plane uses a fence to set width of rebate while a rebate plane uses a guide typically nailed to the job. So . . . fillistering is using a fence-guided rebate plane, (*most probably one with a square escapement as they were cheaper and easier to make), rebating is not. An incredibly technical distinction probably written to make Mr Ellis sound incredibly knowledgeable. The end result is a fillister/rebate (and only the maker knows the correct term for the joint) And Mr Ellis is probably sitting up behind the pearly gates chuckling at the people 100 years later who are still confused by his obfuscation. perhaps a better term for the plane would have been a filibuster I'm going out for the day. You all have an enjoyable evening Cheers, Andrew ---- Start of Message 127883 ---- From: sepost@i... (Scott Post) Date: 2004-01-20 18:51:19 Subject: Re: WTB Crotch grain mahog veneer I've been doing a lot of reading up on veneering in the past week because my next major project is going to require it (a large drop front secretary, ordered a vacuum press yesterday). The concensus seems to be ebay. The sellers "thoughe" and "smiley123" get a lot of recommendations. I e-mailed Tom Volpe a couple days ago and haven't heard back so maybe he's out of town. I believe he sells veneer under the name "thinwoodandoldtools" on e-bay. -- Scott Post sepost@i... http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/ ---- Start of Message 127884 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-01-20 19:53:21 Subject: Re: T&G #48 and breadboard ends On Friday, January 16, 2004, at 07:54 PM, Christopher Swingley wrote: > I think you're right that you're going to have trouble cutting a tongue > into end grain with a #48. Even if the plane will do it, the shoulders > on the face of the table will be really ragged. I've never used one > (mine has no irons. . .) GG St James Bay (.com I think) has them for $12 - plus another $8 for the real wide one which you don't need for t&g work. worth the price just to fool around with. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 127885 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-01-20 19:53:21 Subject: Re: T&G #48 and breadboard ends On Friday, January 16, 2004, at 07:54 PM, Christopher Swingley wrote: > I think you're right that you're going to have trouble cutting a tongue > into end grain with a #48. Even if the plane will do it, the shoulders > on the face of the table will be really ragged. I've never used one > (mine has no irons. . .) GG St James Bay (.com I think) has them for $12 - plus another $8 for the real wide one which you don't need for t&g work. worth the price just to fool around with. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 127886 ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-01-20 20:28:24 Subject: Re: Double-iron metal rebate planes Paul Pedersen wrote: > >> So you can take two shavings at once, hogging deep at >> the front and then polishing up with the rear iron ?? > Eh? (scratch head) New one on me. > > >> >> "This has an adjustable fence and two beds for the >> cutting iron, which may be used on either the front >> when rebating, or the rear when fillistering." >> >> Again, ?? Eh? (more scratching of head). Ya know, I just can't buy this. It doesn't at all seem like some lost bit of woodworking wisdom raised from the dead for all to appreciate. I'll tell you why in a moment, but first this from Ken: > > Maybe if we knew what fillistering was, we would understand :-). > My understanding of a fillister is that it is related, but somewhat different from a rabbet. Imagine your usual rabbeting setup. A plane with a fence on the left. The fence is set to leave a certain amount of blade exposed, which results in that certain amount being removed from the edge being worked. Conversly, fillistering (may I verbize that, Ken?) entails having the fence on the right and setting the fence to leave a certain distance between the fence and the edge of the blade. This results in leaving that certain amount of wood, the rest of the edge being removed from the edge of the board opposite of the fence. Well, I could see that description is worth the paper it is written on. I just ran down to the shop and snapped these in the hopes a picture is worth a thousand words. http://home.earthlink.net/~stephenereynolds/Rabbet1.jpg This shows the Millers Falls #85 duplex rabbet and fillister plane set to cut your ordinary rabbet, that is, take off the edge denoted by the black mark. The wood is dogged down to the bench by the tail vise. Note that the black strip to be removed is the same dimension as that between the cutter and fence. http://home.earthlink.net/~stephenereynolds/Rabbet2.jpg This shows the cut being made. http://home.earthlink.net/~stephenereynolds/fillister1.jpg Now the board is clamped in the shoulder vise. The fence has been moved to the other side of the plane and set for a dimension that corresponds to the black area. The remainder of the board will be removed by the cutter. You will have to excuse me as this was done hastily and the distance between the fence and the cutter is not exactly the same as the black strip, please use your imagination. http://home.earthlink.net/~stephenereynolds/fillister2.jpg The plane doing its fillister thing, with the fence readjusted to correspond to the black strip. The key thing in all this is that you can use a combination of rabbeting (or dadoing) and fillistering to your advantage. Plow the rabbet (or dado) to a dimension. Now set the fillister to that exact dimension and cut a tongue that will be perfectly housed in the rabbet (or dado). Bob's your uncle. Even if the thickness or width of the boards is not consistent, it makes no nevermind because your system is idiot proof. The amount left by the fillister will always match that of the rabbet (or dado). At least that is my understanding of the matter. Now, I said all of that to point out that Ellis' explanation make no sense to me. Why would one want to move the cutter between forward and rear beds to do rabbeting or fillistering, eh? Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 127887 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-01-20 20:35:47 Subject: Re: Minor gloat Mike Guenther wrote: > The square I did buy, however, is an ancient try square. I could only > make out part of the patent date on it. Something 25, 1874. The blade > is 8 inches to the body, which is cast steel and it looks like the > three pins holding the blade to the body have lead poured around them. > It's in pretty decent shape. GG just got back from 4 days away (and 323 old tools posts) and found early on this one. I knew the answer because I have one of these, and it was great fun to go through the posts and watch you all sneak up on the answer. It is, of course, a Stanley #2 Improved try square, type 1. They are very pretty tools. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 127888 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-01-20 20:41:54 Subject: Re: gluing totes > I glue a lot of totes and I have come down to urethane glue, mostly. GG I have seen some of George Langford's work with Rosewood and it is quite a treat. He has a handle on an eggbeater which he got in a half dozen pieces, and you can't see the glue lines when he shows you where they are. He uses Gorilla Glue and describes his process at george'sbasement.thenameofhiscompanywhichI haveforgotted Does any one have his URL?? I have used the Gorilla Glue with great results. One trick I learnt when finishing boats is the judicious use of masking tape. If you instal tape along the glue line of the two pieces of tote before you apply glue, then when the glue is still green you can pull the tape and remove squeeze-out. The tape needs to be just as close as you can get it to the glue line. Also is the perfect solution to bathtub caulking. Ed minch ---- Start of Message 127889 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-01-20 20:44:14 Subject: Re: Cleaning old planes , Michael campbell wrote: > Now, I pose the question to the group. Does anyone else use soap and > water? (Other than Paddy?) > I use Simple Green straight strength as a starter on all planes and other tools that don't have internals (push screwdrivers, ratchet braces, etc.) I rinse with hot water, a shot with a hair dryer, and a quick waxing is all that 90% need. But there are those that definitely benefit from electro-zappage. Ed minch ---- Start of Message 127890 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-01-20 20:51:41 Subject: Odd Plane Steamed Galoots: just returned from 4 days in Atlanta and picked up the obligatory old tool. this one is a little odd> It is a Stanley plane, but on like those that bear the "defiance" name with the heavy red colored laquer on the wooe. I have seen these with black or grey beds, and "Defiance" or "Made in america" on the blades. this one has a nickel plated bed, black frog, and just the word "anniversary" on the blade. Plane has been used some with worn nickel n the bottom, but is in generally very good condition. Any ideas?? Ed Minch Also got one of them M-F braces with the clear red plastic handles - but in abysmal condition. ---- Start of Message 127891 ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-01-20 19:50:39 Subject: Re: Double-iron metal rebate planes Steve Reynolds writes a nice article with pictures, explaining his conception of fillisters vs. rabbets, vis: > My understanding of a fillister is that it is related, but somewhat > different from a rabbet. Imagine your usual rabbeting setup. A plane with > a fence on the left. The fence is set to leave a certain amount of blade > exposed, which results in that certain amount being removed from the edge > being worked. Conversly, fillistering (may I verbize that, Ken?) entails > having the fence on the right and setting the fence to leave a certain > distance between the fence and the edge of the blade. This results in > leaving that certain amount of wood, the rest of the edge being removed from > the edge of the board opposite of the fence. A worthy conjecture, but not correct I fear. What you are describing here is the difference between a Sash Fillister (cuts rabbet on opposite face of board) and Moving Fillister (cuts rabbet on reference face). If you look at old catalog cuts (particularly English makers), this is pretty standard. Sash Fillisters use a plow-like fence, and Moving Fillisters use a simpler fence attached to the bottom of the plane. I think someone else hit it on the head earlier-- I believe what makes a fillister is the fence. I have looked through my meager collection of catalogs and books, and in all cases so far the fenceless planes are called "rabbets", while the same plane with a fence is a "fillister". Some of the later American catalogs refer to the latter as "fenced rabbets", but I have not seen that term from any British makers. Hopefully Don M. or another galoot with lots of catalogs to look at can verify/disprove this. Fun discussion in any event. -- Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL - OTLM, ENB, FOYBIPO "Science works even if you don't believe in it..." - Penn Jillette ---- Start of Message 127892 ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-01-20 21:02:59 Subject: RE: Cleaning old planes One more trick that might work for old tool cleaning -- after washing it in soap/detergent and water, rinse it with methyl alcohol or a similar "pure" (cheap) alcohol. Mixes with the water, removes most of it, and the remaining liquid evaporates quickly without residue.=20 Ken "I'm going to visit Gregory Isola!" Meltsner ---- Start of Message 127893 ---- From: "CheekyGeek" Date: 2004-01-20 18:18:34 Subject: Benchtop flattening non-epiphany (help!) Need some benchtop flattening advice: Finally got the time to glue up the two halves of my benchtop. Flattening time. Grabbed a Millers Falls-made Craftsmen jointer plane and went at it. Very satisfying. The top is pretty dang flat with just a bit of a lip at the central glue joint which went away nicely. However, I have a "hump" that I can feel with my hand that run lengthwise from one end and gradually diminishes as it gets to the bench center. I realize that a jointer is supposed to take off the high spots, but I can't seem to find an angle that removes much from this hump. I'm guessing that I'm going at it from the wrong way or sumpin'. Or is it possible that I'm using too long a plane for this part? I'm corn-fused. Gratuitous ASCII art to help with visualization and directions. N _______________________________ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | W | | E | | | | | | | | | xxx | | xxx | | xxx | | xxx | | xxx | | xxx | | xxx | | xxx | | xxx | | xxx | | xxx | | xxx | | xxx | | xxx | ________________________________ S I'd appreciate pointers as to what direction to go at this thing. Orientation of the plane direction. Orientation of the cut (skew or straight), etc. Thanks in advance for any advice. Darren Addy Kearney, Nebraska ---- Start of Message 127894 ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-01-20 22:38:13 Subject: Re: WTB Crotch grain mahog veneer Tom writes, > I shopped around the City today for crotch-grain mahogany veneer ... > I need 4 pieces at least 41" long by 10" wide to restore a bed . Tom, Suggest you contact .... http://www.certainlywood.com/ I was in their warehouse a couple years ago. These guys had hundreds of pallet loads of piled veneer sheet, with each pallet seeming to be bookmatched - all from the same log. Many were more exotic than what you're looking for. From what I saw, a very common stock size seemed to be roughly 1ft x 4ft. Might be worth a try. Charlie Driggs Newark DE ---- Start of Message 127895 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-20 22:38:41 Subject: Re: Cleaning old planes Sorry for the wasted bandwidth...quick send fumbleitis. Second attempt at sending a complete coohesive sentence..polishing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael Campbell made a new discovery<><>snip<>< > but i am gonna try the dishwasher, next. And another gallot thought<><>snip<><><> > I might try that too, and the experienced and wise galoot replied<>snip<><> >I make sure the missus is not home, which acts to >decellerate my dying at the hands of a tall blonde. I'm reminded the advice givin' me by Bill T after a using one of swmbo's washcloths to clean a PS & W brace. This was the iceberg..I got busted....severely. The ship was going down. I reached out to the SGFH for a lifepreserver, and I got a plastic handled Great Neck saw...Oh man....these guys are crazy. Since narrowly surviving a ghastly fate...barely...I never have, and never will...ever ...touch anything in the house...ever, not even a paper towel. Using swmbo's dishwasher would be, well....ballsy. >Go to Galoot's progress and read the story about living The >Van Down by the River. Get used to woodworking with nothing >but a Great Neck plastic-handled saw and an old Workmutt >with the little rubber foot missing off of one leveler. http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/words_of_advice.html Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 127896 ---- From: "Bret Rochotte" Date: 2004-01-20 22:52:43 Subject: Boxwood substitute Hello; I was thinking of rehabbing some wooden planes. What is a reasonable substitute for boxwood? I have some osage orange(Maclura pomifera), might be able to find some hornbeam,(Carpinus caroliana) and I have some hawthorn (Crataegus sp.). I'm leaning towards the hawthorn because it is fine grained and the color resembles boxwood. I might be able to find some other species if I do a little digging. I know were there is a junk smoother made of lignum vitea I could cut up also. You are probably thinking, why not just use boxwood? Because I don't want to ruin some good expensive boxwood on my early attempts. Thank you, Bret Bret and Wendy Rochotte New Bremen, Ohio rochotte@b... ---- Start of Message 127897 ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-01-20 22:59:47 Subject: Re: Odd Plane Michele Minch wrote: > > Steamed Galoots: > > just returned from 4 days in Atlanta and picked up the obligatory old > tool. this one is a little odd> Where in Atlanta, and where are you looking for old tools? Michael, _in_ Atlanta ---- Start of Message 127898 ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" Date: 2004-01-20 23:09:04 Subject: Re: Boxwood substitute I'll probably be polishing spittoons for saying this, but you could buy some crappy, low-value (ideally broken) boxwood rules as a source of boxwood for plane repairs. On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 22:52:43 -0500, Bret Rochotte wrote: >Hello; > >I was thinking of rehabbing some wooden planes. What is a reasonable >substitute for boxwood? I have some osage orange(Maclura pomifera), >might be able to find some hornbeam,(Carpinus caroliana) and I have some >hawthorn (Crataegus sp.). I'm leaning towards the hawthorn because it >is fine grained and the color resembles boxwood. I might be able to find >some other species if I do a little digging. I know were there is a >junk smoother made of lignum vitea I could cut up also. You are >probably thinking, why not just use boxwood? Because I don't want to >ruin some good expensive boxwood on my early attempts. Thank you, > >Bret >Bret and Wendy Rochotte >New Bremen, Ohio >rochotte@b... > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > Michael D. Sullivan Bethesda, MD (USA) ---- Start of Message 127899 ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-01-20 20:25:18 Subject: Re: Double-iron metal rebate planes On 20 Jan 2004 at 20:28, Steve Reynolds wrote: > My understanding of a fillister is that it is related, but somewhat > different from a rabbet. Imagine your usual rabbeting setup. A plane with > a fence on the left. The fence is set to leave a certain amount of blade > exposed, which results in that certain amount being removed from the edge > being worked. Conversly, fillistering (may I verbize that, Ken?) entails > having the fence on the right and setting the fence to leave a certain > distance between the fence and the edge of the blade. This results in > leaving that certain amount of wood, the rest of the edge being removed from > the edge of the board opposite of the fence. I had sort of come to the same conclusion while washing the day's sawdust off in the shower. Good place for contemplation. I was thinking that if you cut a rabbet in the reference face (using what we would call a moving fillister) it's rabbeting (rebating). And if you cut a rabbet opposite to the reference face (say, with a sash fillister) then it's fillistering. But I think Ralph shot us down. > Now, I said all of that to point out that Ellis' explanation make no > sense to me. Why would one want to move the cutter between forward and rear > beds to do rabbeting or fillistering, eh? Since I don't have the book, I can't check, but this would make sense if he was not talking about moving the iron to go between rebating and fillistering, but was in fact talking about moving the fence to accomplish this switch. Certainly, the terms rebate plane, standing fillister, moving fillister, and sash fillister are well understood in the world of woodies. That is: rebate/rabbet - no fence standing fillister - integral, non-adjustable fence moving fillister - adjustable fence, cuts rebate in reference face sash fillister - adjustable fence (always?), cuts rebate on other side from reference But still, should we extrapolate the naming of the tool to the operation? I still call the operation rabbeting even when I use a plane with a fence (i.e., either a standing or moving fillister, both of which I have) to make a rebate. I just checked Stan Faullin's site for the on-line 78 manual, and it only talks about it being a duplex rabbet plane. They never use the word fillister at all, just talk about moving the fence to make rebates on the other side. I fear we may start sinking into a swamp of esoteric word usage here, so let's just put our irons in the rearward position of our duplex rabbet planes and go make some shavings. I think I'll just use a woodie myself, there being no such option. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 127900 ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-01-20 20:31:55 Subject: Re: Boxwood substitute On 20 Jan 2004 at 22:52, Bret Rochotte wrote: > junk smoother made of lignum vitea I could cut up also. You are > probably thinking, why not just use boxwood? Because I don't want to > ruin some good expensive boxwood on my early attempts. Thank you, You can sometimes obtain boxwood pretty inexpensively at Woodcraft. I picked up a piece to repair a gift plane that was missing all of its boxing, and for a couple of bucks I got a chunk that will give me a lot of opportunities to screw up while practicing and still have one good one left over. Availability probably depends on the store, of course. I don't recall seeing any there last time I was through, but I am teaching a class there next month and would be happy to report on what they have in stock. I only had to look through about fifty sticks until I found one with the grain running in the right direction for boxing, though. This would make it somewhat hard to buy by mail, alas. -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 127901 ---- From: Ted Shuck Date: 2004-01-20 22:43:10 Subject: RE: Boxwood substitute Bret asks about a boxwood substitute for plane repair... I have heard that dogwood is also called "American Boxwood". I haven't worked with boxwood, but have made some chisel handles from dogwood and it is a very nice fine grained wood. I don't think it is quite as hard and dense as boxwood, but it may make a pretty good substitute and it's a LOT cheaper. Lee Valley has some dogwood shuttle blocks for sale if you can't find any locally. They are in woodworking->project supplies. Ted ---- Start of Message 127902 ---- From: "William West" Date: 2004-01-21 04:55:13 Subject: WTB: Stanley type 9 No. 4 plane bed Need a Type 9 No 4 Plane BED ONLY. This has 2 patent dates but NO frog adjusting screw. The more Jappanning the better, but not super important. Corregated would be nice too, but again not necessary. Ping me off list, if ya got one, include your price, and your payment preference (can paypal if desired) Wm. West ---- Start of Message 127903 ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 2004-01-21 00:14:44 Subject: Re: Double-iron metal rebate planes Ralph Brendler wrote: >... . What you are describing here is the >difference between a Sash Fillister (cuts rabbet on opposite face of >board) and Moving Fillister (cuts rabbet on reference face). > >If you look at old catalog cuts (particularly English makers), this >is pretty standard. Sash Fillisters use a plow-like fence, and >Moving Fillisters use a simpler fence attached to the bottom of the >plane. > >I think someone else hit it on the head earlier-- I believe what >makes a fillister is the fence. I have looked through my meager >collection of catalogs and books, and in all cases so far the >fenceless planes are called "rabbets", while the same plane with a >fence is a "fillister". Some of the later American catalogs refer to >the latter as "fenced rabbets", but I have not seen that term from >any British makers. > >Hopefully Don M. or another galoot with lots of catalogs to look at >can verify/disprove this. I might be able to comb through my catalogues and find an exception to Ralph's characterization, but I believe he's essentially correct. And, I agree, this is an interesting discussion. Likely, the earliest form of filletster/fillister plane is the standing filletster. This form of filletster plane can cut a rabbet/rebate of only one width, as the fence is integral to the rest of the stock of the plane and is, therefore, immovable. It is my conjecture that these planes came to be called filletster planes because the rectangular projection (fence) on the sole of the plane was very reminiscent of the "fillet" as found in classical architecture. Penderel-Brodhurst and Layton, in _A Glossary of English Furnitue of the Historic Periods_, define a "fillet" as: "A narrow flat band or moulding used between more important mouldings or flutings." It was soon recognized that the filletster plane could be used to form rabbets/rebates of varying widths if the fence would be capable of being moved. Hence the moving filletster plane. Though the rectangular fence attached to the sole of the plane is easily the most common form of moving filletster plane, some were made with plough-like fences. The sash filletster plane came into being so that the fence could register on the face of the various sash pieces being worked. This helps ensure that the front, moulded, section, and the set-back of the rebate/rabbet, of each piece will be uniform despite any slight variations in overall thickness of the various members. One other difference (though there are exceptions) is that the wooden stock rabbet/rebate planes also have conical escapements while the filletster planes have simple side escapements. This may be, in part, to help clear shavings if the rabbet/rebate plane is used against a batten. But, more likely, it is to help shavings clear the tip of the centrally located wedge. To return, briefly, to the metal rebate planes "with two irons" which started this discussion, I think Ellis has it all wrong. I can't help but look at the illustrations and photographs of these planes without thinking that they were intended to be used much like the Stanley "duplex rabbet & filletster plane." The front iron was to be in play when a bullnose plane was wanted. Otherwise, the rear iron was to be used when a rebate/rabbet plane was wanted. The presence of the two irons, of course, would seem to suggest otherwise. But, I'm mindful of the fact that they are wedged planes, and the iron(s) and wedges may not be entirely interchangeable. While you could make two wedges to work with a single iron in the two positions, you would be left to deal with a loose wedge while the iron was being used in the other position. Very easy for it to become misplaced, damaged, etc. Seems a safer bet to keep both wedges and irons in place, backing off the iron not needed for the present. May help minimise distortions in the plane body, as well. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 127904 ---- From: "Peter McBride" Date: 2004-01-21 16:33:20 Subject: RE: Boxwood substitute Bret, and gentle ones, Bret writes... In the colonies we have a good source of boxwood for just that purpose. You gotta go to the Junk shop, not your favourite Junque, or the Antique shops...the true JUNK shops and look out the back for old plumbers lead beating tools. Around here about half of them are beech, and half are boxwood. Here are 4 that I have found over the past year. Top of the page...and they are odd. http://www.petermcbride.com/odd_tools/ These are not rare around here, but did they get used in the US? If you find them, you won't look and say " what a beautiful tool, I couldn't cut that up". Regards, Peter in Melbourne, Aust where the plan is to go fly fishing tomorrow, and woops...I think I just gave away another good fishing spot.... ---- Start of Message 127905 ---- From: Ron Banks Date: 2004-01-20 21:42:14 Subject: RE: Boxwood substitute You might give the Woodcraft store in Fort Worth, TX a call -- not too long ago they had some French Boxwood pen turning blanks (a bag of 8 or 10 I think) for about 13 bucks a bag (they had a few bags left at the time). Mostly straight grained stuff, with 1 or 2 blanks with bark inclusions per bag. You might also check to see if they still sell S.A.(South American?) Boxwood pen blanks, or boards. The S.A. Boxwood (trade name) is pale yellow, very fine grained, but not quite as hard as the "real" stuff. Ron Banks Fort Worth, TX ---- Start of Message 127906 ---- From: "Steve Knight" Date: 2004-01-20 22:09:42 Subject: RE: gluing totes they are. He uses Gorilla Glue and describes his process at george'sbasement.thenameofhiscompanywhichI haveforgotted Does any one have his URL?? I have used the Gorilla Glue with great results. One trick I learnt when finishing boats is the judicious use of masking tape. If you instal tape along the glue line of the two pieces of tote before you apply glue, then when the glue is still green you can pull the tape and remove squeeze-out. The tape needs to be just as close as you can get it to the glue line. Also is the perfect solution to bathtub caulking. If you can get to the joints sand them as much has you can get away with dampen both sides and use gorilla glue. This is the strongest glue joint for oily woods that I have found for the most part. But even just dampening both sides will help a lot. The best joint is had with hot melt poly glue. That stuff glues up lignum vitae without breaking a sweat. ---- Start of Message 127907 ---- From: "Steve Knight" Date: 2004-01-20 22:12:20 Subject: RE: Boxwood substitute Though the looks are off ipe would work well that stuff is some serious hard and tuff wood. Plus it is oily so it slides better. It's pretty stable too. I have enough scraps to last you a lifetime if you want them (G) ---- Start of Message 127908 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-01-21 07:08:51 Subject: RE: Setting fine teeth : -----Original Message----- : From: John Lederer [mailto:john@j...] : Sent: 20 January 2004 15:50 : To: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] Setting fine teeth : : : I have an English brass backed tenon saw with very, very fine teeth, : somewhere in the high 20's. per inch. : : The saw cuts a very nice fine straight line. It seems sharp, But it : binds about 1/2" into wood. So I think I need a bit more set. : : How the dickens does one set teeth this fine? I have been : meaning to : get one of those magnifying glasses on an articulating arm, and that : will at least let me see what I am doing, but I am at a loss : as to what : to use to bend the teeth evenly. During my training I recall that it was suggested that dovetail saws should be laid on the endgrain of a dense hardwood such as English Oak and a fine nail punch used to set the teeth. The resulting un-evenness was to be rectified by gingerly stoning the sides of the teeth. I seem to recall a remark that this was a dodgy process and that possibly the burr caused by the filing (when sharpening (needle file)) might be sufficient. Jeff, wishing the best of luck. -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 127909 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-21 09:28:36 Subject: Re: Boxwood substitute Bret Rochotte wrote: >Hello; > >I was thinking of rehabbing some wooden planes. What is a reasonable >substitute for boxwood? > If you're replacing boxing, try a thick old ruler (made from boxwood). If the ends are beat up, or the figures nearly worn away, the anteek dealers let 'em go for cheap. I mean *CHEAP*. BugBear (with a coupla' old rulers in his parts box) ---- Start of Message 127910 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-21 09:33:22 Subject: Re: gluing totes Steve Knight wrote: >If you can get to the joints sand them as much has you can get away with >dampen both sides and use gorilla glue. This is the strongest glue joint >for oily woods that I have found for the most part. But even just >dampening both sides will help a lot. > The best joint is had with hot melt poly glue. That stuff glues up >lignum vitae without breaking a sweat. > > At the risk of posting a variant on a "me too", I would like to point out that Steve makes semi-Krenovian wooden planes from all manner of exotic woods. He probably has more experience of gluing these exotic timbers than anyone on the list. His advice is therefore to be given "due weight" BugBear ---- Start of Message 127911 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-21 09:35:53 Subject: Re: Double-iron metal rebate planes Don McConnell wrote: > It is my conjecture that these planes came to be called filletster > planes because the rectangular projection (fence) on the sole of the > plane was very reminiscent of the "fillet" as found in classical > architecture. Penderel-Brodhurst and Layton, in _A Glossary of English > Furnitue of the Historic Periods_, define a "fillet" as: "A narrow > flat band or moulding used between more important mouldings or > flutings." Are you suggesting (interestingly, and unusually) that the plane is named for the way it looks, as opposed to the cut it makes? BugBear (intrigued) ---- Start of Message 127912 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-21 09:30:49 Subject: Re: Boxwood substitute Bret is going to practice boxing. . . >I was thinking of rehabbing some wooden planes. What is a reasonable >substitute for boxwood=3F (snipped like a Parisian street artists paper profile cutting ) >I have some hawthorn >I have some osage orange >able to find some hornbeam, >made of lignum vitea I could cut up Not the osage orange - too soft, wrong colour (color) Not Hornbeam - too coarse a grain, too stringy Not lignum vitae - too hard Go with Hawthorn - close, fine hard enough Birch maybe - but a bit soft - fine for practice Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 127913 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-21 10:04:30 Subject: Re: Double-iron metal rebate planes Lots of suggestions for double ironed planes and their nomenclature, >Sash Fillister (cuts rabbet on opposite face of >board) and Moving Fillister (cuts rabbet on reference face). >in all cases so far the >fenceless planes are called "rabbets", while the same plane with a >fence is a "fillister". Some of the later American catalogs refer to >the latter as "fenced rabbets", >The sash filletster plane came into being so that the fence could >register on the face of the various sash pieces being worked. This >helps ensure that the front, moulded, section, and the set-back of >the rebate/rabbet, of each piece will be uniform despite any slight >variations in overall thickness of the various members. attributions all purged... We may be getting over excited about terminology here. Consider first what work we need to achieve. Let me take you back to a 'creatives' discussion sometime in the way back when. . . A rebate (rabbet) is the only way to affix that new-fangled clear stuff into windows. to keep this stuff in place - lets call it 'glass' we have to nail a small bit of wood in place inside the rebate - call it a fillet, because it's a bit like the fillets we cut from fish. If we take one of our wooden planes, give it a flat bottom and full width blade we could do a dang good job of making rebates all day, so we'll call that a rebate plane, and work it along a batten cramped to the work ( we'll call it a cramp, because it tightens up like your leg when you get . . . ) If we added a fence to the plane though, we wouldn't have to carry this 4 foot batten 4 miles to work every day. - now *that* is an idea worth paying for. .. time passes. .. There's a whole lot of this glass fitting business around - people seem to like having the shutters open with no draughts in winter. Making the rebates in this hand sawn and planed stuff for the glass frames is tricky though - it's all different dimensions, and makes the window panes rattle when the rebate isn't the same distance from the face of the framework on some sides. (ding) If we made the fence bear against the *opposite* face to the rebate, then we'd always have a rebate which would be the same on each side of the glass, *and* the fillet would sit tight against the glass, making it leakproof, ratlleproof, and we run a bench plane over the fillets to give a level inside face, ready for the paint - could even use that fullers earth in linseed oil gunk to seal round the glass to stop rattles too. What are we going to call this fancy new plane that fits fillets in one go - its only a rebate plane with a fence - but we did that. A filletster ! ! we'll call it a filletster! - Birth of another legend. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot, who prefers simple explanations.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 127914 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-21 10:34:44 Subject: Re: Benchtop flattening non-epiphany (help!) Darren is feeling lumpy. . . >However, I have a "hump" that I can feel with my hand that run lengthwise >from one end and gradually diminishes as it gets to the bench center. I >realize that a jointer is supposed to take off the high spots, but I >can't seem to find an angle that removes much from this hump. I'm >guessing that I'm going at it from the wrong way or sumpin'. Or is it >possible that I'm using too long a plane for this part=3F >I'm corn-fused. Gratuitous ASCII art to help with visualization and >directions. (snippage) Go east young man or Go west young man. WE EW - either will do, start the cut at the centre and try and plane a hollow into it. fine setting, until a shaving is coming off full width, then move a little N or S until all done, finally NS all over with a smoother to give a fine finish enjoy! ARW ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 127915 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-21 11:04:14 Subject: Re: Benchtop flattening non-epiphany (help!) CheekyGeek wrote: > >I realize that a jointer is supposed to take off the high spots, but I >can't seem to find an angle that removes much from this hump. > > I've had similar experiences all up and down the plane size scale. If your benchtop is close-to-flat I (like you) would be nervouss of just "trying shavings" if I wasn't sure they were "the right" shavings. In these circumstances I would switch from using a jointer (which is its own reference straight edge) and use a trusted straightedge to ID the hump. I'd then flatten off the hump with a plane capable of local removal such as a small smoother (#3, Paddy) or block plane. Iterate until bored. If you don't have a conventional straightedge that's long enough, you could use the edge of a good brand spirit level. Stabila levels are specified to give levels +- 0.5mm over 1 meter, so I'm guessing the beam is machined at least this well. BugBear ---- Start of Message 127916 ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-01-21 06:04:45 Subject: Re: Boxwood substitute > > Bret writes... > ruin some good expensive boxwood on my early attempts> > >Peter wrote...." > You gotta go to the Junk shop, ... look out the back for old plumbers lead beating > tools. ... half are boxwood. > Here are 4 that I have found over the past year. Top of the page...and they are > odd. > http://www.petermcbride.com/odd_tools/ > These are not rare around here, but did they get used in the US? > If you find them, you won't look and say " what a beautiful tool, I couldn't cut > that up". > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Last two examples of these that I saw for sale in antique shops were tagged as "Sail Smoothers" and priced at $275 and $200. Of course I do live in an inner circle of a Old Tool Hell ,...but Even Still. In the past I have had a few which as a slow head I sold as lead smoothing tools for $15 and now that I "Know" what they are I can't find one ! Ain't that the way it always is, Eh?....Have seen more then a few that were made out of Lignum Vitae too,[A wood often favored by Shipwrights and other Maritime workers like maybe Sail Makers, Hmmm]....Nope, I think when I find the next one I WILL be saying,"what a beautiful Tool, I couldn't cut that up" !.........Todd ,on the shores of the Chesapeake Bay getting ready to go to his Weekly auction.....P.S. Peter that bottom tool on your site is a leather tool called a "Bottom Glazer" a burnishing tool used in the finishing of shoe heels and bottoms ---- Start of Message 127917 ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-01-21 05:30:02 Subject: Fwd: [oldtools] Benchtop flattening non-epiphany (help!) Had the same problem, here is what I did--- Took my 24in. straight edge and defined the hump very carefully (30+ min.). Pencil marked the edges and the internal area of the hump(hump has another meaning in my area of the world so I shall switch to bump) with broad plentiful pencil marks. Extracted my #40.5 (scrub plane Jeff) from my pile-o-planes and set it for a light cut, or as light as a #40.5 can be set. Focusing on the bump only I went to work - scrub, check with straight edge, scrub, check again, scrub, on and on, always remembering that it is easier to remove wood than to put it back. I was able to get very close to a little above the dead flat that I wanted. Scrub work done, I switched to my #8 (huge battleship of a Stanley jointer Jeff) and was able to achieve a worm's belly flat bench top. Smoothed it all down with a tightly set #4.5 (almost as good as a Norris smoother Jeff). Rubbed in a few coats of boiled linseed oil - let set 24 hrs and shellacked with 4X amber and now it is so nice that LOML wants me to do the same to our dinning room table (I don't think so ;-)). Hope this helps. Rex ---- Start of Message 127918 ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-01-21 05:34:55 Subject: Fwd: RE: [oldtools] gluing totes >Steve said; > > > The best joint is had with hot melt poly glue. That stuff glues up >lignum vitae without breaking a sweat. > > Any one got a brand name and or source for this stuff, I'd like to give it a try. Rex ---- Start of Message 127919 ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-01-21 05:41:25 Subject: Fwd: RE: [oldtools] Setting fine teeth >: > >: The saw cuts a very nice fine straight line. It seems sharp, But it >: binds about 1/2" into wood. So I think I need a bit more set. >: >: How the dickens does one set teeth this fine? I have been >: >During my training I recall that it was suggested that dovetail saws >should be laid on the endgrain of a dense hardwood such as English Oak >and a fine nail punch used to set the teeth. The resulting un-evenness >was to be rectified by gingerly stoning the sides of the teeth. > >I seem to recall a remark that this was a dodgy process and that >possibly the burr caused by the filing (when sharpening (needle file)) >might be sufficient. > I recently sharpened my LN 15ppi and did some test pins only to discover that I did not need to set the teeth, I was perplexed, but Jeff's burr theory explains this phenomenon ;-) Rex ---- Start of Message 127920 ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 2004-01-21 06:49:27 Subject: Re: Benchtop flattening non-epiphany (help!) CheekyGeek wrote: >Need some benchtop flattening advice: ... >The top is pretty dang flat ... >However, I have a "hump" that I can feel with my hand that run lengthwise >from one end and gradually diminishes as it gets to the bench center. I >realize that a jointer is supposed to take off the high spots, but I >can't seem to find an angle that removes much from this hump. In addition to Bugbear's advice to use a suitable straight-edge to identify the location and magnitude of the hump, I'd suggest making use of it and/or a pair of winding sticks to gain an impression of the overall topography of your bench top. I say this because most of the time I experience the phenomenon you describe, the source of the problem turns out to be some wind, or twist, in the surface I'm attempting to plane flat. If two opposite corners are proud/high relative to the other two, you will need to correct that in order to achieve a flat surface. Otherwise, the top will still be "in wind," even if you are able to reduce a seemingly localized hump with a smooth plane. In other words, you may only be addressing a symptom of the problem, rather than the source, by addressing the hump as a localized phenomenon. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 127921 ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-01-21 07:20:08 Subject: Re: More nice wood from the Borg... NickNaylo@a... wrote: >Galoots, That's three pretty boards in 2 trips to the Borg. Now what to >build, what to build..... > > > My policy now is to buy it if it's highly figured even if I don't need it at the moment or don't have the money. Recently I wanted to make a couple of curly marking gauges for a fund raiser, band boosters, but I find I've used all my suitable wood. No problem I hit the borgs for miles around and guess what no good wood. Lowes here doesn't even carry maple! I can see in my day dreams some very nice boards I passed up for the sake of cheapness. Figured wood will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of...... how did that saying go? Ken ---- Start of Message 127922 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-21 06:39:36 Subject: RE: Fwd: [oldtools] A Saw Sight? This may be just a totally off the wall idea but what if the nib was in itself a jig? Remember the narrow clapboard siding of yesteryear homes? Very narrow stuff. Could this be a notch to rest the siding in while the nose of the saw makes a place for the next unnailed board to be put up? I was looking at the nib on one of my dad's saws and it reminded me of this jig he made to do this job only that was with the wider bevel lap cedar siding. I'll have to see how practical that might be. Does anyone know if these nibs are about the same distance in on each saw or do they vary drastically? > [Original Message] > From: John R. Wilson > To: oldtools > Date: 1/20/2004 9:19:35 AM > Subject: Fwd: [oldtools] A Saw Sight? > > >Kael said; > > > > This is a new one to me. Anyone else ever heard of a "nib" > >on a saw called a "sight"? Perhaps we have a new use description > >for the unknown use of the nib? > > > True it could be thought of as a "sight", but how would one see the > sight on the other side of the cut? Perhaps transparent wood ;-) > -Rex > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 127923 ---- From: kjworz@c... Date: 2004-01-21 12:52:35 Subject: RE: Fwd: [oldtools] A Saw Sight? Nope, the nib distance varies with the size of the saw. The nib, according to Disston in the 19th C, is both of an unknown purpose, but probably mere decoration. -- -Chris Schwartz, Ex-Brewer Stealth #97 Silver Spring, MD > This may be just a totally off the wall idea but what if the nib was > in itself a jig? Remember the narrow clapboard siding of yesteryear > homes? Very narrow stuff. Could this be a notch to rest the siding in > while the nose of the saw makes a place for the next unnailed board to > be put up? > > I was looking at the nib on one of my dad's saws and it reminded me of > this jig he made to do this job only that was with the wider bevel lap > cedar siding. I'll have to see how practical that might be. Does > anyone know if these nibs are about the same distance in on each saw > or do they vary drastically? > > ---- Start of Message 127924 ---- From: "Peter McBride" Date: 2004-01-22 00:00:48 Subject: RE: Boxwood substitute Todd, and other gentle ones, Todd tells me what I thought was just a good supply of cheap boxwood is really very valuable tools... They are... <"Sail Smoothers" and priced at $275 and $200> Fantastic. I guess they were used in pairs by particularly fussy sailors to smooth the sails before the wind... Is there no end to the breadth of knowledge in this group? Am I going to get a bill for Entertainment Tax...+ 15% for all residents outside MD Regards, Peter. In Melbourne, Australia where sailors on Port Phillip Bay love to smooth their sails in the wind. PS Todd, thanks for the ID on the shoe bottom smoother. ---- Start of Message 127925 ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-01-21 08:21:46 Subject: Surgical Santa Strike [was: Double-iron metal rebate planes] Paul Pedersen asks about a somewhat confusing sentence about the 78: > "This has an adjustable fence and two beds for the > cutting iron, which may be used on either the front > when rebating, or the rear when fillistering." >Again, ?? 1] [Cut to the guy at the other end of the Porch, hopping from foot to foot, waving his hand in the air] Oooo!! Ooooo! I know! I know!! Ask me!! Ask me!! I know!! Ahem. "Plane, Fillister: A general term for Rebating Planes that are fitted with fences." (So, perhaps the point the writer may be trying [somewhat clumsily] to make is that when you are using the cutter in the forward [bullnose] position, you typically use the plane without the fence [i.e. as a "rabbet plane"] and when the cutter is in the rear position, you typically use the fence [i.e. as a "fillestster plane"]. Recall that the full name of the #78 was the "Duplex fillestster and rabbet plane".) But on to the important stuff: 2] Now, ask me *how* I know. Because a few nights ago the nice UPS driver pulled into our driveway, and delivered my GalootAClaus present: A brand-spanking-new copy of Salaman's _Dictionary of Woodworking Tools_ (from which the quote above was taken). Now, the truly amazing part about this is that the one thing I buy more of than OldTools is books. So when you combine the two, I typically have the category of "books about woodworking and tools" pretty well covered (just check with LoML). However, in this case Santa --somehow-- managed to pick exactly 1] a book that I don't have and B] a book I've always really wanted. I'll respect Santa's desire (expressed in an earlier communication) to remain anonymous (even going to the trouble of routing his gift via an elf located in Redwood City CA...) But, I just wanted to say, thanks Santa. This is great. Nichael ---- Start of Message 127926 ---- From: Walter Anderson Date: 2004-01-21 05:57:36 Subject: Re: Boxwood substitute Ted Shuck said: >I have heard that dogwood is also called "American >Boxwood". I haven't worked with boxwood, but have >made some chisel handles from dogwood and it is a >very nice fine grained wood. I don't think it is >quite as hard and dense as boxwood, but it may make >a pretty good substitute and it's a LOT cheaper. > >Lee Valley has some dogwood shuttle blocks for sale >if you can't find any locally. They are in >woodworking->project supplies. I used some of the Lee Valley Dogwood to make a spokeshave awhile back. Very nice to work with. If you want to see what it looks like when surfaced and finished with orange shellac you can follow the link below. www.geocities.com/wandrson/toolmaking/spokeshave.html It is a little pinker than boxwood, but is supposed to be very wear resistant. Richard Wilson wrote: >Not the osage orange - too soft, wrong colour (color) This is the first time I've ever heard someone refer to osage orange as soft. Since Richard is across the pond I was wondering if it is the same species he is thinking about (Maclura pomifera). Walter Dallas, TX ---- Start of Message 127927 ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 2004-01-21 09:19:04 Subject: Re: Double-iron metal rebate planes Greetings, I'd previously written: >>It is my conjecture that these planes came to be called filletster >>planes because the rectangular projection (fence) on the sole of the >>plane was very reminiscent of the "fillet" as found in classical >>architecture. Penderel-Brodhurst and Layton, in _A Glossary of English >>Furnitue of the Historic Periods_, define a "fillet" as: "A narrow >>flat band or moulding used between more important mouldings or >>flutings." Paul Womack responded: > >Are you suggesting (interestingly, and unusually) that >the plane is named for the way it looks, as opposed >to the cut it makes? > > BugBear (intrigued) While it is unusual for a plane to be named for the way it looks, as opposed to the cut it makes, it wouldn't be entirely unique. Among moulding planes, for example, hollows and rounds are named after the shape of their soles rather than the shape they produce. Additionally, I believe the names for snipes bill planes and the (American) crow's bill planes flow from their appearance rather than from the cut they make. Other, non-moulding plane, candidates, might be the chariot plane and the badger (mouth) plane. And, in a sense, I suppose the tooth, or toothing plane might be a candidate, since the name is derived from the configuration of the iron rather than from the "cut" it makes. As I said, my thoughts on the origin of the term "filletster plane" are conjectural - so I could be dissuaded. But, I am influenced toward that conjecture because the primary distinction between the filletster plane and the rabbet plane is the presence of a fence on the former. Since, for all practical purposes, the results of using both classes of planes are the same, I'm a little hard pressed to account for the filletster terminology on the basis of the cuts made. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 127928 ---- From: kjworz@c... Date: 2004-01-21 14:46:56 Subject: Re: Double-iron metal rebate planes How is that unusual? Jim Kingshott taught me that way. And I'll go with him. -- -Chris Schwartz, Ex-Brewer Stealth #97 Silver Spring, MD > >Are you suggesting (interestingly, and unusually) that the plane is > >named for the way it looks, as opposed to the cut it makes? > > > > BugBear (intrigued) > ---- Start of Message 127929 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-21 08:03:49 Subject: Re: Double-iron metal rebate planes Regarding the fillister plane, Bernard Jones writes in his tome "The Complete Woodworker" as follows: "A fillister somewhat resembles a plough and is held and adjusted in the same manner. It consists of a rebate plane attached to a fence block, and is used for cutting recesses on the farther edge of a piece of wood, as in sash frames, etc., where the recess is a gauged distance from the front edge, . . ." So from this description it seems that a fillster is simply a rebate cut on the edge of the board opposite from the edge upon which the plane fence registers. But that still doesn't explain the double iron business. Blake ---- Start of Message 127930 ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 2004-01-21 10:06:01 Subject: Re: taking a break from shoptime - I've got questions Hi, Larry and others I have two commercial sets of lathe tools, and both of them include a spear point. I use one mostly for making shallow V-grooves. Trevor ---- Start of Message 127931 ---- From: "Christopher Otto" Date: 2004-01-21 09:21:39 Subject: RE: wtb: Studley poster I'm not so sure it *is* at House on the Rock in Wisconsin. About a year ago, when the chest made its appearance on Norm's show, they walked through a private collection of mechanical musical instruments, mentioned that they were somewhere in Wisconsin, and remarked that it he told us where the chest was he'd have to kill us (which BTW is the lamest joke in current circulation and gives me plenty of reason to hate the guy. Silly pet peeve of mine, sorry.) Since the House on the Rock has a number of mechanical musical instruments on display I think that's where the speculation started... I suppose it *could* be in a private collection of the House's owners. Whoever owns it is wealthy enough to erect a dedicated, climate-controlled building for his collection. I don't think we really have enough information to tell right now where the tools are. But it is kinda morbidly entertaining to think that the guy who owns the Menard's stores (regional chain of big-box hardware/lumber/paint/home supply stores known for cheap tools, Jeff, privately owned by a guy who's worth a few hundred million dollars and probably on his fourth or fifth wife by now...) owns the Studley chest and is slowly replacing the original tools with Taiwanese copies... -----Original Message----- ... Does anyone know if it's still at House on the Rock in Wisconsin? ---- Start of Message 127932 ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 2004-01-21 11:38:52 Subject: Re: Modern Workmate opinions? At 09:58 PM 1/19/2004 +0000, Mike Guenther wrote: >Nothing worse than to have a large house half built and have someone come >up and tell you that you have to move it. A local guy placed an asphalt driveway which grazed the edge of his property. His neighbor claimed infringement and sued. A surveyor located the property line, painting it directly on the asphalt. Local-guy was forced to chisel away the infringing bits of driveway, which should have been the end of it. But the neighbor claimed Local-guy had attempted to chisel her out of half of the property line itself, that instead of bisecting the surveyor's 1/2" wide painted line, he had removed only the asphalt extending from the border of the line on her side. For that quarter of an inch she sued him again. ( I have an old K&E paragon transit - I've used it to calculate the height of my barn and we've laid out some gardens, but it lacks a few precious brass bits and I can't do anything serious with it. ) ---- Start of Message 127933 ---- From: "Steve Knight" Date: 2004-01-21 08:59:32 Subject: RE: gluing totes Any one got a brand name and or source for this stuff, I'd like to give it a try. http://store.yahoo.com/toolsplus/t-b1341.html HiPURformerT ADVANCED BONDING SYSTEM BONDING KIT Not cheep. There are industrial glues that would work well too. But they are usually only sold in 5 gallon and up size. Some two part water based glues. ---- Start of Message 127934 ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 2004-01-21 12:39:21 Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: [oldtools] gluing totes At 05:34 AM 1/21/2004 -0600, John R. Wilson wrote: >Any one got a brand name and or source for this stuff, I'd like to give it >a try. The HiPurformer unit is available from Woodworkers Supply: http://www.woodworker.com. Despite its hokey name it is a good unit for the price ( $100 ) and is made by a reputable manufacturer. The glue sticks aren't cheap. The glue gun heats only while resting in its steam-powered cradle. I can use it to work untethered for ten minutes or so. ---- Start of Message 127935 ---- From: "Ed O'Riordan" Date: 2004-01-21 12:52:54 Subject: RE: gluing totes The issue preceding the current newsstand version of Fine Homebuilding reviewed hot melt polyurethane glue (sold under the brand name HiPURformerT ADVANCED BONDING SYSTEM). It is a holt melt version of Polyurethane glue. The starter kit contains the gun and base station (charge it on the base station and get 20 minutes of cordless work time), and 3 glue cartridges ( one 30, 60 and 75 second open time). Aside from having different open times the glues are targeted at different materials. Unlike regular poly it is not supposed to foam in curing. The article warned that once a cartridge is opened (they come in a foil pouch) it only lasts for 30 days. Unopened pouches have a shelf life of 1 year. I have seen the cartridges for sale for $10 each, they are quite small. I bought the kit at a recent woodworking store's going out of business sale, but have not tried it yet. Ed O' ---- Start of Message 127936 ---- From: Mike Duchaj Date: 2004-01-21 12:10:40 Subject: Book Report GGs, I was visiting my friend Delmer this morning and came home with an armful of books. First, I was presented with Foxfire 1 through 6. I have been pawing through these, and am just blown away. What a great assemblage of neander-technology! I have been skidding down the green and primative woodworking/toolmaking slope for a whle, and this has provided a healthy shove. I will be staying up late for the next few nights. I also like the stories that accompany the descriptions of the crafts. I haven't noticed these show up on the recommended book lists, but for the serious knuckle draggers, these seem to be indespensable. Second, I was given "The Forgotten Arts." It is a 3 volume collection of various skills that have been adapted to current techniques. The ones that cought my eye were ladder making, basket weaving and rehandling hand tools. I'm sure I'll find more as I look at these more closely. I was also intrigued by the author's bio.."....he spent most of his professional lfe teaching..... before a consuming passion for herbs and country living encouraged him to take up permenent residence and take up farming and writing." Richard M. Bacon sounds like an interesting fellow. I'm home today with a sick kid, so I have some time to do a little reading. I'll also nip down to the shop and assemble the last of the cabinet bottoms. Feels good to have an unplanned day. Mike Duchaj Elgin, IL ---- Start of Message 127937 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-21 12:23:47 Subject: Re: putting a steel base on gunmetal planes I believe the word you are looking for is Plasma Cutter. They're amazing. > [Original Message] > From: scott grandstaff > To: oldtools > Date: 1/20/2004 10:25:39 AM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] putting a steel base on gunmetal planes > > http://www.petermcbride.com/plane_restore/ > Way to go Peter!! > Good tinning, that's the ticket. > You might want to look into the machine shop community around the > neighborhood. Mike Yazel, who used to do the kits, actually manufactures > prosthetic attachments for people and used a lazer or wire cutter > (whatever-it's-called) to cut the mouths and was able to make a > nano-nothing mouth for the shoulder planes very crisply. Of course, with > the smoothers it's not so critical because the slot is bigger to still > make a micro mouth. > Just a thought. > yours, Scott > . > Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: > http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html > PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 127938 ---- From: "Marcus Sly" Date: 2004-01-21 18:39:22 Subject: Re: Bio - Marcus Sly, and 'hello' Hi Bugbear >Extremely. Does she have a sister? She has two sisters, but both taken and neither likely to be so open minded! >Neat joinery - although did is *really* need to be quite that strong? I don't know, and that leads me onto a question: I made it so strong because I was paranoid it would fall apart and didn't want to take chances. I imagine that there must be some standard rules of thumb about relative size and number of rails, legs etc. to use when making your average table or stool or whatever. Any suggestions about how I can find these things out? Is there a good book out there? Or is it all experience and intution? - Marcus. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Marcus Sly Tel: +44 (O) 1274 589650 email: marcus.sly@b... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Sly" To: "oldtools" Sent: 19 January 2004 23:36 Subject: [oldtools] Bio - Marcus Sly, and 'hello' > Hello Galoots, > > I've been lurking here for a while, and thought it was time I introduced > myself. > I'm new to this galooting business - in fact new to anything to do with > making things out of wood. Had a strange and unexpected conversion about six > months ago when the thought popped into my head that perhaps it would be fun > to get some pieces of wood and turn them into useful, nice looking objects. > No idea why I suddenly thought this after a lifetime of avoiding anything to > do with making things (apart from the odd crappo DIY effort), but there you > go. > > So I bought myself some saws and chisels and such and spent four months > practicing joints (after I'd learned to saw straight that is..). Wife must > have thought I had gone quite mad. After a while I got fed up with clamping > bits of wood to kitchen worktop (so did Wife), so over Christmas I got to > work and made my first bench. In spite of major design flaw (don't ask) I'm > pretty pleased with it, and it is a whole lot better that the kitchen work > top. Boy does having a vice make things easier! Also, meals have improved > since they are no longer seasoned with saw dust. > > We live in a very small house with no garage, so Wife calmly accepted that > dining table was to be replaced with workbench and sitting room was to be > converted into ad hoc workshop - how cool is my SWMBO? :-) > > The deal was that if we are going to eat our meals sitting at a work bench, > the least I could do is build her a high stool so she can see over the top. > Here it is: www.marcus-sly.info/wood I'm pretty pleased with it. Actually > that's an understatement. I'm besotted. I know it's nothing compared to what > you experienced galoots make, but I still keep looking at it going "I can't > believe I made that.." > > When not indulging my new obsession I teach English (to adults), the > Alexander Technique, and music. Our front room contains a grand piano as > well as a work bench. Feels a bit claustrophobic sometimes. I live in the UK > in Bradford, Yorkshire. I'm 32, so I guess that makes me a bit of a spring > chicken around here? No GITS as yet, but maybe one day soon. > > Anyway, thank you all for the vast amount I've learnt from reading the list > so far. It has been a great help. > > Marcus Sly > Bradford, Yorkshire, UK. > > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 127939 ---- From: "Ben Knebel" Date: 2004-01-21 18:40:09 Subject: re: Boxwood substitute There is a wood called Costello that is the standard substitute for boxwood--similar hardness---working properties and colour. We use Costello for our London pattern chisels as getting boxwood in quantity and quality is difficult. Regards Ben www.shepherdtool.com ---- Start of Message 127940 ---- From: Andy Barss Date: 2004-01-21 12:03:00 Subject: Re: WTB Crotch grain mahog veneer Scott -- I've had excellent dealings with a few people on ebay, particularly one called lepkowski. Also, I have been very pleased with the veneer from B & B Rare Woods, online at: www.wood-veneers.com Nice people, spectacular veneers. -- Andy Barss ---- Start of Message 127941 ---- From: "Andrew F in Australia" Date: 2004-01-22 06:43:22 Subject: RE: wtb: Studley poster The info is under our collective noses. Look at the smithsonsonian link again - then look at the details of the studley chest - includes the name of the person who lent/lends it to the smithsoninan http://americanhistory.si.edu/toolbox/ You may be able to get more from the link than I can. Cheers, Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Otto [mailto:chrisotto@s...] Sent: Thursday, 22 January 2004 2:22 AM To: oldtools Subject: RE: [oldtools] wtb: Studley poster I'm not so sure it *is* at House on the Rock in Wisconsin. About a year ago, when the chest made its appearance on Norm's show, they walked through a private collection of mechanical musical instruments, mentioned that they were somewhere in Wisconsin, and remarked that it he told us where the chest was he'd have to kill us (which BTW is the lamest joke in current circulation and gives me plenty of reason to hate the guy. Silly pet peeve of mine, sorry.) Since the House on the Rock has a number of mechanical musical instruments on display I think that's where the speculation started... I suppose it *could* be in a private collection of the House's owners. Whoever owns it is wealthy enough to erect a dedicated, climate-controlled building for his collection. I don't think we really have enough information to tell right now where the tools are. But it is kinda morbidly entertaining to think that the guy who owns the Menard's stores (regional chain of big-box hardware/lumber/paint/home supply stores known for cheap tools, Jeff, privately owned by a guy who's worth a few hundred million dollars and probably on his fourth or fifth wife by now...) owns the Studley chest and is slowly replacing the original tools with Taiwanese copies... -----Original Message----- ... Does anyone know if it's still at House on the Rock in Wisconsin? ---- Start of Message 127942 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-01-21 11:46:25 Subject: Re: Double-iron metal rebate planes Blake--- A filletster plane's cut is usually registered from the face it's cutting---only the sash filletster registers from the farther edge. Combination rebate and filletster planes, like the #78, or the #45 can bear their fences on near OR far edges, and I guess that makes them sash fillesters at times---but it's important to note that standing filletsters, and moving filletsters do NOT register from the far edge of the workpiece, but rather and invariably, from the edge just below where the wood is to be removed. we'll get to the bottom of this; GAM in Seattle --- Blake Ashley wrote: SNIP--it seems that a fillster is simply a rebate cut on the edge of the board opposite from the edge upon which the plane fence registers. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127943 ---- From: "Hugh S. Myers" Date: 2004-01-21 12:49:59 Subject: RE: Boxwood substitute Do you happen to know the botanical name for Costello? --hsm > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Knebel [mailto:knebel@r...] > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:40 AM > To: oldtools > Subject: re:[oldtools] Boxwood substitute >=20 >=20 > There is a wood called Costello that is the standard substitute=20 > for boxwood--similar hardness---working properties and colour. > We use Costello for our London pattern chisels as getting boxwood=20 > in quantity and quality is difficult. > Regards > Ben > www.shepherdtool.com > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=3Doldtools >=20 ---- Start of Message 127944 ---- From: "Christopher Otto" Date: 2004-01-21 14:11:29 Subject: RE: wtb: Studley poster Okay, that got me thinkin' and searchin' -- the name Peter Hardwick pops up there as the owner of the chest (thanks to you too, Tim, for your reply...) and further searching on the name resulted in a porch message from 1996 http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_id= 2583 ...referring to a FWW discussion of the chest which named Pete Hardwick as the owner. If memory serves this issue was from the mid-80's, correct? (Or was there more discussion in a more recent issue?) I'm wondering if Hardwick might be a previous owner... Chris O. SE Wisconsin -----Original Message----- From: Andrew F in Australia [mailto:eddie_d_eagle@y...] Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 1:43 PM To: oldtools Subject: RE: [oldtools] wtb: Studley poster The info is under our collective noses. Look at the smithsonsonian link again - then look at the details of the studley chest - includes the name of the person who lent/lends it to the smithsoninan http://americanhistory.si.edu/toolbox/ You may be able to get more from the link than I can. Cheers, Andrew ---- Start of Message 127945 ---- From: "Bramel, Jim" Date: 2004-01-21 15:25:14 Subject: RE: Boxwood substitute At this website - http://www.guild.com/artitem/27122.html It says "Costello is a veneer made from African Boxwood that=20 has been dyed black." Nice bow. No help on the botanical name=20 though. -----Original Message----- From: Hugh S. Myers [mailto:hsmyers@s...]=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 2:50 PM To: oldtools Subject: RE: [oldtools] Boxwood substitute Do you happen to know the botanical name for Costello? ---- Start of Message 127946 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-21 13:50:57 Subject: Re: Double-iron metal rebate planes But Gary . . . if any plane that cuts a rebate using a fence is really a fillister plane, then a whole lot of planes have been misnamed, haven't they? Not that such widespread misnomerizing is unheard of, it just makes me suspicious. I know very little about wooden planes, but Stanley seems to designate its planes "rabbet" without regard to the presence of a fence, but seems to only call them fillister if they have the capability of cutting a rebate on the side of the board opposite the side where the fence registers. Perhaps the distinction between rabbets and the several types of fillisters you mention was blurred in the era of the metal plane? Are there fillister planes that cannot cut a rebate on the side of a board opposite of the fence? Somehow I know the answer will be yes . . . Now I feel like cutting a sash fillister when I get home, just to see how it works. Maybe with the #289 with the three lobed spur. ;-) Blake ---- Start of Message 127947 ---- From: "Andy Wilkins" Date: 2004-01-22 07:18:56 Subject: RE: Bio - Marcus Sly, and 'hello' --- strength Without a doubt there is a rule-of-thumb - a galoot rule-of-thumb, anyway - and that is to make it AS STRONG AS POSSIBLE. Any neanderthal worth his weight in salt would scoff (or grunt) in disgust at Bugbear's suggestion that your stool was too strong (although not at the "sister" comment - that was highly appropriate). Seriously though, i suppose this is one of the things you learn by osmosis. I've never seen anything formally written down. I'm in the phase of making things look delicate, while in reality being rather strong. A bit of destructive testing will show you that wood+joints are really quite strong. I also like to copy things i see in books or on the net, which are typically quite "artistically delicate" - which runs counter to my own nature of "AS STRONG AS POSSIBLE" - but so far haven't found the lower limit to an item's strength, which is rather surprising. a > -----Original Message----- > From: Marcus Sly > Hi Bugbear > > >Extremely. Does she have a sister? > > She has two sisters, but both taken and neither likely to be so > open minded! > > >Neat joinery - although did is *really* need to be quite that strong? > > I don't know, and that leads me onto a question: I made it so strong > because I was paranoid it would fall apart and didn't want to > take chances. > I imagine that there must > be some standard rules of thumb about relative size and number of rails, > legs etc. to use when making your average table or stool or whatever. Any > suggestions about how I can find these things out? Is there a > good book out > there? Or is it all experience and intution? > > - Marcus. ---- Start of Message 127948 ---- From: "Don Kugelberg" Date: 2004-01-21 21:08:39 Subject: Stanley 140 as a Shooting Board Plane, possible WTB I love to use my shooting board and usually use my Lee Valley Low Angle Smoother or a Record 060 1/2 LA block plane. The thought has occurred to me lately that perhaps a Stanley 140 block plane with its skewed blade might work well in some circumstances. Am I nuts? Will the plane sole be square enough to the sole on the detachable side for this purpose (I'm a right hander)? If it would be suitable, any Galoots looking to sell a 140 or a Millers Falls 07 at a reasonable price? ---- Start of Message 127949 ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-01-21 16:28:43 Subject: Re: Stanley 140 as a Shooting Board Plane, possible WTB Don Kugelberg wrote: >I love to use my shooting board and usually use my Lee Valley Low Angle >Smoother or a Record 060 1/2 LA block plane. The thought has occurred to >me lately that perhaps a Stanley 140 block plane with its skewed blade >might work well in some circumstances. Am I nuts? Will the plane sole be >square enough to the sole on the detachable side for this purpose (I'm a >right hander)? [...] I use my 140 quite a bit with my shooting board. I find the skew helps in certain end-grain situations. I've never noticed any more "out-of-square" issues than when I use any other block plane (e.g. my 60.5 or my 9.5). (My favorite, of course, is my side-handled Record T-5. I find that extra mass makes a lot of difference.) N ---- Start of Message 127950 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-21 14:14:56 Subject: Re: Bio - Marcus Sly, and 'hello' --- strength Near the end of a PBS program showing the building of a cable stayed bridge across the Mississippi River, the engineer who designed it said that anybody could build a good solid bridge across the Mississippi. The trick, he said, was to build it JUST strong enough. That is where the economy is. On Wednesday, January 21, 2004, at 01:18 PM, Andy Wilkins wrote: > Without a doubt there is a rule-of-thumb - a galoot rule-of-thumb, > anyway - and that is to make it AS STRONG AS POSSIBLE. Any neanderthal > worth his weight in salt would scoff (or grunt) in disgust at > Bugbear's suggestion that your stool was too strong Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 127951 ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-01-21 14:39:02 Subject: Re: Bio - Marcus Sly, and 'hello' --- strength Jim Thompson wrote: > Near the end of a PBS program showing the building of a cable stayed > bridge across the Mississippi River, the engineer who designed it said > that anybody could build a good solid bridge across the Mississippi. > The trick, he said, was to build it JUST strong enough. That is where > the economy is. Yikes! Bridges are one place I really don't want "economy", thanks. Roebling, the designer of the Brooklyn Bridge once said he came up with his design by figuring out all the maximum stresses he could possibly imagine the bridge being subjected to....and multiplied them by 6. You might note that the bridge is still standing, with his original design, with an additional load of asphalt and concrete on it, and taking quite a lot of road-traffic. His original design was for foot traffic only. So I've read, anyway; could be urban legend. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127952 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-21 17:41:58 Subject: Auger bit question Hello GG's Are there any familiar with: Set No. 200 Jennings Pattern Extension Cut Spur Auget Bits Maufactured by THE SNELL MANUFACTURING CO. FISKDALE, MASS. Pat. Sept 28 1886. What is a pattern extension cut spur auger bit? Some are are marked SNELL JENNINGS, Excelsior, and SNELL M"FG CO. Regards Jonathan Peck ---- Start of Message 127953 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-01-21 18:11:32 Subject: Re: Modern Workmate opinions? >> Nothing worse than to have a large house half built and have someone >> come >> up and tell you that you have to move it. >> My Brother the architect in Woodstock NY did a house overlooking the hudson river. The house was 38-1/2 feet tall when the rule was 38 feet. Across the street uphill neighbor sued because the view was blocked so they cut 6" off the ridge and left a flat spot the length of the house. Now the neighbor gets to look at a lovelyl new house across the street, but he is the only one who gets to look at the ugly flat spot. Careful what you wish for. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 127954 ---- From: "Daniel E.L. Yurwit" Date: 2004-01-21 18:24:14 Subject: Re: Bio - Marcus Sly, and 'hello' --- strength ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Campbell" >Roebling, the designer of the Brooklyn Bridge ..... figuring out all the maximum stresses he could >possibly imagine the bridge being subjected to....and multiplied them by 6. That's about right. Although 1/3 of the way through spinning the cables, Washington Roebling found that the wire being delivered was very sub-standard, but decided the bridge had been so over-engineered by his father that he left the flawed material in, switched providers (to his own firm), and still figured the bridge was at least 4x as strong as was needed. >You might note that the bridge is still standing, with his original >design, with an additional load of asphalt and concrete on it, and >taking quite a lot of road-traffic. His original design was for foot >traffic only. When it was thoroughly inspected for its 100th anniversary in 1986, the assessment was that what it needed most was a good coat of paint! Actually it was designed for foot traffic, Galootish passenger and freight wagons, and trains back and forth. They probably never dreamed of all the cars and trucks, though. For a wonderful read about old tools, innovative engineering, social history, and political corruption, try David McCullough's book, The Great Bridge. Dan, in NJ, wondering how we got from designing stools to the Brooklyn Bridge ---- Start of Message 127955 ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-01-21 18:33:34 Subject: Re: Boxwood substitute Bret asks for some help with boxwood .... > I was thinking of rehabbing some wooden planes. What is a reasonable > substitute for boxwood? ... and the assembled multitude responds with all kinds of suggestions. I guess I am missing something here. Some time ago, while perusing the Hough's American Woods plates, I came across this one: http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/archives/forestry/hough/lgimage/plate_88.jpg If this is what we are talking about, these trees grow wild all over this region, and there are several within sight of my back windows. Can't be that hard to find a branch of the stuff. Now, if this is indeed the right species, is there some requirement that the boxing be made only from sizable logs, or wouldn't a good sized branch, properly dried, produce useful material? Don't need all that much for boxing, and the boxing in the woodies I have doesn't seem to be end grain based upon an unmagnified view. Charlie Driggs Newark DE ---- Start of Message 127956 ---- From: Ted Shuck Date: 2004-01-21 18:04:31 Subject: RE: Boxwood substitute Charlie suggests that some local "trees that grow wild all over this region" and are identified as boxwood could be used. The plate that you reference from Hough is dogwood, also known as American boxwood. After a bit of reading, I learned that dogwood is of the genus Cornus, but the European boxwood is of the genus Buxus. These grow in the US, but was originally brought from Europe. Learning more all the time... Ted ---- Start of Message 127957 ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-01-21 16:26:40 Subject: Old tool usage sighting Just a quick moment at the beginning of the movie "Seabiscuit" there's a guy in a bicycle factory using a post drill. No more than two or three seconds as the camera pans by, but even I recognized it and I've never seen one in action. AAAndrew Attuned to old tools wherever they appear in Durham, North Carolina. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127958 ---- From: "Michael A. Lietzow" Date: 2004-01-21 17:15:15 Subject: Re: Old tool usage sighting Hi Andrew and GGs, Andrew mentioned a short segment at the beginning of the movie "Seabiscuit" where a gentleman in a turn-of-the-century shop was operating a post drill. I think that part of the movie is cool because it goes a bit deeper than just showing off a post drill. The narrator is discussing Henry Ford and the dawn of assembly lines as being the beginning of specialization and, hence, the end of craftsmanship. I had really high hopes for the movie after that. It turned out to be a decent movie but didn't live up to the intriguing beginning, at least from this galoot's perspective. Another galoot-type sighting occurred in, of all places, the movie "Seven." Upon entering the dimly-lit apartment of the psychotic killer, the first item the detective's flashlight illuminates is an open cabinetmaker's tool kit, complete with smoother, jack, and fore planes (transitionals, I think), as well as a nice set of cabinetmaker's screwdrivers. To LOML's protests, I rewound and rewatched that segment a few times before allowing the rest of the movie to play. She always thought us old-toolers were a bit crazy but now she thinks we're psychotic killers too! Cheers, Mike ---- Start of Message 127959 ---- From: "Michael McCarthy" Date: 2004-01-22 01:22:22 Subject: another pipe axe In view of the positive response for the Campbell axe, I thought I would post a link for the newest one we have finished. The original axe was found in the Mohawk valley, and we have undertaken this repro with the usual care. The body of the axe is wrought iron with a welded steel bit. The handle includes two silver bands inlayed along its length. While the provenance for the original is unknown to me, I am doing research currently and will post more if I find more. For the handle we chose tiger maple and inlayed two bands along its length. Rest assured this is a useable tool and carries a hardened and tempered edge. There are two available. Enjoy. http://groups.msn.com/stacyandmichael/tuyure.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=102 Michael McCarthy Mechanick http://www.hammerinhand.com _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ---- Start of Message 127960 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-01-21 20:32:05 Subject: Re: Old tool usage sighting > deeper than just showing off a post drill. The narrator is > discussing Henry Ford and the dawn of assembly lines as being the > beginning of specialization and, hence, the end of craftsmanship. Yeah...the comments about the effects of assembly lines on human creativity were interesting as clearly the Arts & Crafts movement that gave rise to all that Mission furniture and the demise of many thing Victorian stem from that view. They grabbed a whole bunch of history in those few seconds of film but I suspect most non-galoots wouldn't quite make the connection. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 127961 ---- From: "Bill Rittner" Date: 2004-01-21 20:34:24 Subject: reversing glue joints I have begun working on my "new old workbench" and want to remove some parts that were added on over the years and are not original to the bench. They have been glued and nailed. I'm not sure what kind of glue was used. I'm thinking hide glue or plastic resin type glue. Are there any known methods of reversing these glues? What other suggestions might you have? Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT wcrittner@c... "Don't take this life too seriously.......nobody gets out alive" (Unknown) Remove "no" to reply ---- Start of Message 127962 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-01-21 20:40:43 Subject: oak staining & shellac I'm hoping that some of you have lots of experience working with oak, dyes and shellac. I'm in the beginnings of constructing a 1/12 scale Morris chair, the precursor to the Lazy-boy. It's early 1900s, quarter-sawn oak and the originals were ammonia fumed and stained with 'interesting' concoctions that included stuff like 'dragon's blood' and other ingredients not likely to be found in the local Home Despot. Anyways, when scaling anything wood to a smaller scale, scaling grain is difficult (impossible?). My approach to grain has been to grab a piece of oak that is fine grained (summer wood) and also a piece that I could resaw in quarter-grain fashion (even a 1x2 is a 1-foot x 2-foot "log" and so I've got a bunch of quarter-sawn lumber. What I need to do, however, is darken it and, at the same time reduce the contrast in the grain. I figure that the best way to do that is with a dye rather than a pigment so I'm looking for some 'hey, this works' suggestions. Is there a super-dee-duper paste wood filler that would both fill the grain and tone down the grain simultaneously? My thought is to do something like this and then use amber or garnet shellac on the piece. Opinions? Oh...much of the staining will have to occur before the chair is assembled just because the spindles and such are so small. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 127963 ---- From: "Michael McCarthy" Date: 2004-01-22 01:56:29 Subject: RE: oak staining & shellac >the originals were ammonia fumed and >stained with 'interesting' concoctions that included stuff like >'dragon's blood' and other ingredients not likely to be found in >the local Home Despot. Dragon's Blood may be more common than you think. "Calumus Draco" is a palm from the west indies, and its fruit is ground to produce "dragons blood" which can be found at herbal type stores, health food joints and such. Sorry for the mini side track, but I thought some might find it useful. Michael McCarthy (Who just found a use for useless info tidbit #13296) _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up — fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 ---- Start of Message 127964 ---- From: "Mike Guenther" Date: 2004-01-22 01:58:02 Subject: RE: Boxwood substitute I'm suprised that noone mentioned Holly. Wasn't it used for making plane bodies? I just managed to acquire some Holly "logs" while clearing a site for an upcoming home addition. Mike Guenther in the foothills of S. Carolina...Go Panthers ---- Start of Message 127965 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-21 18:10:43 Subject: Re: oak staining & shellac You can get almost the same results as fuming produces by first applying tannic acid, then following it with liquid ammonia (27%). This way you only have to tolerate the nasty ammonia fumes for a short time. While the ammonia is still wet it will have a red look, but this goes away as it dries to a nice antique oak look. I use this method on most of the oak I use. On Wednesday, January 21, 2004, at 05:56 PM, Michael McCarthy wrote: > >> the originals were ammonia fumed and >> stained with 'interesting' concoctions that included stuff like >> 'dragon's blood' and other ingredients not likely to be found in >> the local Home Despot. ---- Start of Message 127966 ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 2004-01-21 18:18:40 Subject: Re: oak staining & shellac --- Larry Marshall wrote: > > I'm hoping that some of you have lots of experience working with > oak, dyes and shellac. The definitive way to reduce the overbearing effect of oak's prominent grain is to make the piece out of mahogany. I'm half-serious, here. Honest I am ;). Mahogany, along with cherry are both traditional woods for A&C pieces, without the "in-your-faceness," (potentially out of scale and aesthetically unpleasing, Richard) of oak. A google search for "dragon's blood dye" should net plenty of sources. Paddy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ---- Start of Message 127967 ---- From: Jon Pile Date: 2004-01-21 18:28:14 Subject: Bio I've lurked for a long time, but now there are some points I want to add to ongoing discussions; time to unlurk (de-lurk? uncloak?) and see if I can help obfuscate things. I'm a Canadian software geek, now transplanted to beautiful Marin County, California (north of the golden gate bridge). SWMBO adores it here (me too), so I think we're stuck for good. So anyway, turns out I've been a galoot since I was five, but only in the past few months have I found out that there were others out there. Growing up, I always had access to my grandfather's wood (and occasionally metal) shop. From that, I assembled a small set of well-used hand tools and took up woodcarving. All of which ended with a flurry of moves back and forth across the Atlantic. We've now settled. In a home. With a garage. Inexorably, I found myself drawn back to woodworking for some measure of sanity and relaxation. I've been acquiring tools - old, and new-old - and had a few of the requisite galoot epiphanies while making shavings ("oh, THATS why..."). My GIT is 2 years old, covered in yellow fur, and lacking opposable thumbs. He does spend quality time with me in the shop - converting big sticks into smaller sticks using only his teeth. How's that for _old_ tools! Now, for the obligatory newbie question. I noticed a few of my less-loved (read: cheap) tools have developed a slight skin condition (read: surface rust). I share my workspace with a clothes dryer that vents a little warm humidity inside, but this is NoCal in January; it's damp no matter what. Obviously my waxing job on the surfaces in question was insufficient, so tonight I'll order some camelia oil to see if that will help. My question is twofold: - any thoughts or experience on sharing space with a clothes dryer? Specifically, is this tool suicide? - would storing tools in a sealed wooden box with some of those "FOR PETES SAKE, DO NOT EAT" silica gel packets do anything to slow down or prevent this? -jP (Jon Pile, at work in beautiful Marin County) ---- Start of Message 127968 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-01-21 21:37:54 Subject: Re: oak staining & shellac > You can get almost the same results as fuming produces by first > applying tannic acid, then following it with liquid ammonia > (27%). This way you only have to tolerate the nasty ammonia fumes Very interesting, Jim. I don't think I want to do this, though. My understanding of fuming is that it emphasizes the grain whereas when you build model furniture you really need to de-emphasize it. That's why I'm looking for a good dye solution as these should at least head things in the right direction. > for a short time. While the ammonia is still wet it will have a > red look, but this goes away as it dries to a nice antique oak > look. > I use this method on most of the oak I use. As I recall your coffee grinder was oak. All I really remember was how nice the metal work looked once you restored it :-) -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 127969 ---- From: "John Wardle" Date: 2004-01-21 18:45:06 Subject: Bow saw question I just picked up my first saw. It is a traditional style bowsaw from = woodcraft and when I did my test cuts with it, the cut consistantly pulls = to the left (as you watch). I tried 'tipping' the frame to the elft to kinda push the cut to the = right, but to no avail. What am I doing wrong here? Ofc. John D. Wardle Lane Community College=20 Department of Public Safety 4000 East 30th Ave. Eugene, Oregon 97431 "I'm not the cause of your problems but the result of your actions. Your = life is not my fault" TO IGNORE THE FACTS, DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACTS. ---- Start of Message 127970 ---- From: "Frank Filippone" Date: 2004-01-21 18:45:57 Subject: RE: WTB Crotch grain mahog veneer www.certiainlywood.com Certainly Wood.... is the name of the company.... 716-655-0206 They are somewhere in NY, and have some of the nicest veneers you could want. Price may not be so cheap, but the quality is there. Shipping is a flat $5. Frank Filippone red735i@e... ---- Start of Message 127971 ---- From: "Frank Filippone" Date: 2004-01-21 18:47:13 Subject: RE: Boxwood substitute louis abbotus ???? Frank Filippone red735i@e...=20 Do you happen to know the botanical name for Costello? ---- Start of Message 127972 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-01-21 21:46:12 Subject: Re: oak staining & shellac > The definitive way to reduce the overbearing effect of oak's > prominent grain is to make the piece out of mahogany. I'm > half-serious, here. Honest I am ;). Mahogany, along with cherry > are both traditional woods for A&C pieces, without the At this point cherry is the 'fall-back' position. But given that I've now got a couple hundred board feet (in 1/12 scale) of really nice quater-sawn oak, I'd like to use it. That 'look' is so prominent in the real (1900s) Mission furniture I've seen that I'd like to see if I can pull it off in the model. Bob Flexner seems to think a paste wax filler is what I need but I've never used the stuff and am not too sure who makes it, though I've found "Bradley's" version of it on Homestead's finishing site. > unpleasing, Richard) of oak. A google search for "dragon's blood > dye" should net plenty of sources. I suppose I could do 'the real thing' but in my experience, the 'real thing' when it comes to finishes doesn't look right on a model. As an aside, the mixture that was claimed to be used to make "Flemish oak" (or at least its color) was just dragon's blood, alcohol, and sodium carbonate (a use for my electrozapping solution?). Paddy, do you still have any of Allen's book in stock? -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 127973 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-01-21 21:59:52 Subject: Spicers Auction Report Fellow Porch Dwellers, Warning, long winded auction report. Saturday, January 17, I attended the Spicers Tool Auction in Rhode Island. The auction was well attended, probably since the last one was held during a blizzard, and many (myself included) couldn't make it. So there you had all these tool zealots, with last months cash burning holes in their pockets. I arrived at 7:15am, to find limited tailgating in progress, the temperature (low) being the major limiter. Patrick Leach was there, and we concluded a transaction, which began earlier online, which left me with a minty fresh Miller's Falls #2 auger handle, and slightly less cash. I discussed the acquisition with Steve Brackett, who felt the auger handle might be pre-1930. I headed inside to check out the sellers in the lobby. There, one vender was selling an Atkins #2 backsaw, mint, for $325, this seemed a bit high to me, but then, it was an Atkins. I then proceeded into the auction room, to check out the tools. The selection was very good, just about everything a Galoot could want, but the selection of saws, large braces, and hollow augers was very limited, all of which I was hoping to find. Patrick Leach commented to me that it was just like attending an English tool auction, since a large percentage of the tools were English. I won only one auction lot, which was a group of 4 English wooden moulding planes, 3 different makers, all stamped J. Marsh (owner). They all look new, showing little use. 2 say W. Greenslade, Bristol, 1 says WM. Moss, 1 says Ames London. Steve Brackett picked up that nifty rule which he discussed in an earlier post. He also took home a lot containing a Vaughn & Bushnell foreplane, same size as the Stanley #6, and a Sargent knuckle cap block plane. Eric Bernard was there, and left with a Wilkinson draw knife, a Stanley #67 shave, and a Stanley #90 marking gauge. Sandy Moss was there also, as always, but his winnings are far too numerous to list here. I wasn't paying attention at all, cause Sandy won a tool lot, containing 2 saws, one of which was a Groves ( a favorite of mine), which I never even noticed, damn, out foxed again. After the auction Steve and I drove over to Wickford harbor (nearby), on Narragansett Bay, to visit a boat builder, Steve knows. We walk in, and there is this huge bench, the length of the building, with hand tools neatly (some not) stacked the entire length. We discussed a 1930's sailboat which he is restoring. We were looking at an old MF Lion brace (with patents on the chuck) which was one of the boat builder's favorites, and he mentioned that he regularly wears them out. That's right, he wears out Lion braces, regularly. Cool. We then visited another craftsman, who worked in the back room, building and restoring museum quality sailing ship models. His interests of course were in much smaller tools. Several more auction attendees arrived, and we all had to bring in our newly acquired tools, and have a circle gloat. I left that shop felling high as a kite. No, not from lacquer fumes either. We headed home, and I followed Steve up to Worcester, Massachusetts, to Al's Tool Shed (no relation). I walked out with a Warranted Superior cc saw, 36" blade, 41" oa, surface rust, good handle with no chips, with good auxiliary handle at tip. The saw should clean up nicely, and keep my Disston and my Atkins company. All in all, it was a great day of tooling, and fun was had by all. Can't wait for Live Free or Die, in April. Best Regards All, Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Waitin' for the zap tank to de-iceify. ---- Start of Message 127974 ---- From: "Matt Mulka" Date: 2004-01-21 21:23:38 Subject: Re: Bio Welcome aboard Jon. I think most of us took up this hobby to stay somewhat sane. Although many of us are only borderline sane....;-P > - any thoughts or experience on sharing space with a clothes dryer? > Specifically, is this tool suicide? Really anything that produces lots of humidity can be tool suicide. Is the dryer vented to the outside? That would help a lot. > - would storing tools in a sealed wooden box with some of those "FOR > PETES SAKE, DO NOT EAT" silica gel packets do anything to slow down or > prevent this? That would help, just make sure you zap it every now and then to dry the silica out. Personally I've had great luck with Renaissance wax. Keeps the tools rust free and helps the planes glide real smoothly. I'd get ready for a deluge of responses, seems like everyone has a method for keeping rust off tools. Someone's probably going to tell you to check the archives as well, there's a lot of discussions about this in there. Matt Mulka Who still hasn't finished the bookcase he thought would be done in September ---- Start of Message 127975 ---- From: Ted Shuck Date: 2004-01-21 21:18:24 Subject: RE: Bow saw question John asks what he is doing wrong with a Woodcraft bowsaw because it is consistently pulling to the left... John, I don't think you are doing anything wrong. I received one of these as a present last year. I found that I had to hammer almost all the set out of the teeth to make it cut acceptably. The blade has way too much set as it is sold, and the way teeth are sharpened left a burr on one side of the saw. After hammering the set out, I sharpened it and stoned it until it cut straight. At a minimum, you will need to stone it on the side that it pull towards. You would do best to hammer the set out of it and sharpen it first. Since the standard blade is 5tpi rip, filing it is pretty easy if you follow the instructions on Pete Taran's site, vintagesaws.com. (Great instructions by the way, Thanks Pete!) Hope this is of some help, Ted ---- Start of Message 127976 ---- From: Wesley Groot Date: 2004-01-21 21:40:48 Subject: Save the Date Chicago Area Ahoy Galoots near and far. (but mostly near) This year's MWTCA meet at Rockford has been cancelled due to problems with the venue. That's the bad news. The good news is that the local boys from C.A.T.S* have arranged to have a meet in Chicago on April 3rd So, Save The Date. At this time I've been told it will be indoors near Harlem Avenue and 60th Street on the southwest side of the city. I'll post more details as they are made available. Hopefully we can make it as large or larger than Rockford. I know that we've all enjoyed the Rockford meet, and the organizers have said that it will be back next year. I feel that maybe we can entice MWTCA members and Galoots from Indiana and Michigan who might appreciate the Chicago event which will be an hour and a half closer to them than Rockford. Cheers, Wes *Chicago Area Tool C*ll*ct*rs (Doesn't mean that you have to be a c*ll*ct*r to belong!) ---- Start of Message 127977 ---- From: "Jon Pile" Date: 2004-01-21 19:48:09 Subject: RE: Bio > > - any thoughts or experience on sharing space with a clothes dryer? > > Specifically, is this tool suicide? > Really anything that produces lots of humidity can be tool > suicide. Is the > dryer vented to the outside? That would help a lot. I should have mentioned that it does vent outside. After sending this message, a colleague of mine reported a noticable reduction in in-house humidity when he bought a new dryer (not because of the dryer itself; but the flex-hose and the outside vent were both slightly clogged with lint). I plan to check it out tomorrow. > I'd get ready for > a deluge of responses, seems like everyone has a method for > keeping rust off > tools. Someone's probably going to tell you to check the archives as well, > there's a lot of discussions about this in there. Busted. Question withdrawn! I did search for the clothes dryer angle, and found nothing. Then, just before sending the message, I tacked on the silica gel "idea" [*]. Sure enough, searches for "camphor" and "silica" turn up good info. Thanks also to those that responded privately. A big "duh" to me for forgetting the obvious. And hey, a search for "spittoon polish" turns up lots of good info too. Pass it over. -jP ---- Start of Message 127978 ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-01-21 19:51:17 Subject: Experimenting with augurs I did a little experimentation tonight. I first grabbed the first #4 (1/4") bit I had and it just happened to be a fine thread Clinton "The Irwin Bit". After trying out drilling a hole in a scrap piece, it sure seemed to take a long time. So, I drilled the same hole and counted, it took 90 rotations. I dug around and found another #4, this one a Greenle with course threads. It also bore a clean hole of the same size but took only 20 turns. So, the question is, if the course thread worked this well in hard maple, when would I want to use the fine thread augur bit? Thanks! AAAndrew Actually working with wood, and having fun with tools in Durham, North Carolina. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 127979 ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-01-21 23:21:57 Subject: THANKS (mahog veneer) Greetings GG's THanks for all the sources for veneer. I contacted many of them, but only one had crotch grain veneers over 40" in length ...the winner? CERTAINLY WOODS !!! I got LOTS of responses suggesting that I contact them and in the end they were the only ones who had what I needed anyway. Yes, spendy, but at this point, it's all about quality and availability. Gotta find a source now for plastic resin glue.... their suggestion. LOVE this Porch! Tom ---- Start of Message 127980 ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-01-21 23:23:13 Subject: The MOUSE smell Greetings again gang, I just landed some super Berg paper boxes.... they smell like the bottom of a mouse trap. Ideas??? TIA! Tom ---- Start of Message 127981 ---- From: "John Wardle" Date: 2004-01-21 21:26:18 Subject: RE: Bow saw question I appreciate the help folks, I'll give my best and let you know what = happens.=20 BTW, I've got the pictures of those "handcut" dovetails, I just post on my = page and pass on the link right? Ofc. John D. Wardle Lane Community College=20 Department of Public Safety 4000 East 30th Ave. Eugene, Oregon 97431 "I'm not the cause of your problems but the result of your actions. Your = life is not my fault" TO IGNORE THE FACTS, DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACTS. >>> Ted Shuck 01/21/04 07:18PM >>> John asks what he is doing wrong with a Woodcraft bowsaw because it is consistently pulling to the left... John, I don't think you are doing anything wrong. I received one of these as a present last year. I found that I had to hammer almost all the set out of the teeth to make it cut acceptably. The blade has way too much set as it is sold, and the way teeth are sharpened left a burr on one side of the saw. After hammering the set out, I sharpened it and stoned it until it cut straight. At a minimum, you will need to stone it on the side that it pull=20 towards. You would do best to hammer the set out of it and sharpen it first. Since the standard blade is 5tpi rip, filing it is pretty=20 easy if you follow the instructions on Pete Taran's site,=20 vintagesaws.com. (Great instructions by the way, Thanks Pete!) Hope this is of some help, Ted =20 ---- Start of Message 127982 ---- From: T&J Holloway Date: 2004-01-21 21:38:13 Subject: Re: Old tool usage sighting Hoo Ha! As might be found in the archives, from 1997 or so: If you'll subject yourself to the gory depravity of the movie "Seven," complete with Gwyneth Paltrow's disembodied head in a box, just to see the OldTools in question: You might be a Galoot! Tom Holloway, recalling that there is a similar fleeting Galoot moment in the opening scenes of "Jefferson in Paris"--minus the psychotic killer leitmotif. On Wednesday, January 21, 2004, at 05:15 PM, Michael A. Lietzow wrote: > Another galoot-type sighting occurred in, of all places, the movie > "Seven." ... > cabinetmaker's tool kit, complete with smoother, jack, and fore planes > (transitionals, I think), as well as a nice set of cabinetmaker's > screwdrivers. > ---- Start of Message 127983 ---- From: "Andrew F in Australia" Date: 2004-01-22 16:49:32 Subject: RE: Stanley 140 as a Shooting Board Plane, possible WTB Hi all, Don asks: I love to use my shooting board ... perhaps a Stanley 140 block plane = with its skewed blade might work well in some circumstances... ...? No offence to Don, but this is another myth here in my opinion. All planes work well enough as a shooting board plane - the skewed blade = works slightly better at end grain, but when you're shooting the shaving = is that fine and the blade that sharp that a skew should make minimal = difference. I tend to use the one plane for all tasks (Stanley 6). Works fine for = shooting end grain as well as general bench work. All you need is the sole square to the side and a sharp, finely set = blade in my experience. Cheers, Andrew Who's admitted that he has way too many planes but no Stanley skew for = sale ---- Start of Message 127984 ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-01-21 22:18:26 Subject: replacing broke pin on mortising guage Due to an unknowing seller (I hope) and my own enthusiasm I am the owner of a = used mortising guage. The stationary pin on the mortising side is broken off = flush with the brass insert. The other 3 pins (one for marking) and the other for the other side of the = mortise channel, are pretty short and could do a replacing as well. Anyone with experience in these matters care to shorten my learning curve? Thanks Alan ---- Start of Message 127985 ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-01-21 22:23:45 Subject: re: edge jointing boards >> Jeff Gorman has an excellent tutorial --clear drawings and clear >> text--=20 on edge jointing on his site. A #7 will work fine -- if >> the edge is=20 very wavy go over it a bit with a #3-5 before using >> the #7. I should have been more explicit. I've enjoyed a number of Jeff's articles on = his site, and perhaps it's still a bit over my head and not something I realize = yet. The radius on the plane blade puzzles me. I've been working with a straight = blade and don't see what the advantage of the radias is for edge jointing. = Recently I am considering some type of winding stick at the front of the plane = to help me with tilt. A full 8" out either side would make it whole lot easier = to see that I am twisting the plane. Epson Inkjet Printer FAQ: http://welcome.to/epson-inkjet ---- Start of Message 127986 ---- From: "David Boreham" Date: 2004-01-21 22:31:13 Subject: Re: edge jointing boards >The radius on the plane blade puzzles me. I've been working with a >straight blade and don't see what the advantage of the radias is for >edge jointing. Recently I am considering some type of winding stick >at the front of the plane to help me with tilt. I think the idea is that you can always keep the plane vertical. Move it to the left or right to control from which side material is removed. As regards keeping the plane vertical, I find that it's one of those 'Use the force, Luke' things. Just do it and don't think too hard, and somehow it ends up right. ---- Start of Message 127987 ---- From: "Andrew F in Australia" Date: 2004-01-22 17:33:40 Subject: RE: replacing broke pin on mortising guage Alan asks if, as the stationary pin on the mortising side is broken off flush with the brass insert. And: The other 3 pins (one for marking) and the other for the other side of the mortise channel, are pretty short and could do a replacing as well. can anyone help him? The immediate question on most peoples lips would be could you recheck the number of pins, as you mention four - three or four in total?? Cheers, Andrew ---- Start of Message 127988 ---- From: T&J Holloway Date: 2004-01-21 23:15:20 Subject: Re: Bio On Wednesday, January 21, 2004, at 06:28 PM, Jon Pile wrote: .I noticed a few of my less-loved (read: cheap) tools have developed a slight skin condition > (read: surface rust). If you don't mind burning the electrickery, you might consider a "hot box" for tool storage, at least in the NorCal version of "winter." This is a sealed environment with a light bulb or other mild heat source inside. All it takes is enough to dry the air in the box relative to the surrounding humidity. There are special lamps for this purpose for placing inside grand pianos and other spaces one might want to drive humidity from, but a common light bulb will do the trick. When I was in the army stationed in the Panama Canal Zone (so long ago that the said Canal Zone no longer exists), we kept our wool winter uniforms (never needed in panama, I can assure you) in "hot lockers" that were nothing more than a sealed closet with a 100w lightbulp on inside at all times--for the heat, not the light. This was to prevent the growth of mold, the fabric equivalent of rust on metal. Tom Holloway, noting that we will need to put Jon Pile's place in Marin County on the list of possible sites of the 2004 Bay Area Galoot Gathering! ---- Start of Message 127989 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-01-22 08:06:49 Subject: RE: replacing broke pin on mortising guage : -----Original Message----- : From: Alan Womack [mailto:arwbackup@w...] : Sent: 22 January 2004 06:18 : To: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] replacing broke pin on mortising guage : : : Due to an unknowing seller (I hope) and my own enthusiasm I : am the owner of a used mortising guage. The stationary pin : on the mortising side is broken off flush with the brass insert. : : The other 3 pins (one for marking) and the other for the : other side of the mortise channel, are pretty short It can be a mistake to have gauge pins that are too long. In this condition, the gauge needs to be operated as such an angle that the flanks of the pins will be trying to compress the wood instead of the points penetrating the surface. Of course if they have been interfered with and are horrible little ill-formed stubs, then something needs to be done. I believe that mortise gauge pins are sometimes soft soldered in place. The best bet for replacements might be the shanks of drill bits. To get a good line the conical ends need to be highly polished. I've come to regard these dual-purpose gauges as a bit of a menace with a high propensity to produce stabbed finger ends. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 127990 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-01-22 08:06:50 Subject: RE: edge jointing boards : -----Original Message----- : From: Alan Womack [mailto:arwbackup@w...] : Sent: 22 January 2004 06:24 : To: oldtools : Subject: re: [oldtools] edge jointing boards : : I should have been more explicit. I've enjoyed a number of : Jeff's articles on his site, and perhaps it's still a bit : over my head and not something I realize yet. : : The radius on the plane blade puzzles me. I've been working : with a straight blade and don't see what the advantage of the : radias is for edge jointing. Could I suggest a re-visit to 'Planing Notes' - 'How To Plane A Square Edge '? This describes the standard tradesman's way of dealing with edges. Epiphanic? Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 127991 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-01-22 08:06:51 Subject: RE: reversing glue joints : -----Original Message----- : From: Bill Rittner [mailto:wcrittner@c...] : Sent: 22 January 2004 01:34 : To: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] reversing glue joints : : : I have begun working on my "new old workbench" and want to : remove some parts : that were added on over the years and are not original to the : bench. They : have been glued and nailed. I'm not sure what kind of glue : was used. I'm : thinking hide glue or plastic resin type glue. I gather that vinegar or acetic acid (careful when diluting the glacial form) will soften Scotch (hide Murricans) glues. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 127992 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-22 09:12:13 Subject: Re: Bio - Marcus Sly, and 'hello' Marcus Sly wrote: >Hi Bugbear > > > >>Neat joinery - although did is *really* need to be quite that strong? >> >> > >I don't know, and that leads me onto a question: I made it so strong >because I was paranoid it would fall apart and didn't want to take chances. >I imagine that there must >be some standard rules of thumb about relative size and number of rails, >legs etc. to use when making your average table or stool or whatever. Any >suggestions about how I can find these things out? Is there a good book out >there? Or is it all experience and intution? > > Observation of existing examples is most informative :-) You have to choose your examples with some discretion though. For exmaple Macintosh chairs are very weak and uncomfortable; more a chair shaped sculpture than a chair IMHO. BugBear ---- Start of Message 127993 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-22 09:20:53 Subject: Re: Stanley 140 as a Shooting Board Plane, possible WTB Don Kugelberg wrote: >I love to use my shooting board and usually use my Lee Valley Low Angle >Smoother or a Record 060 1/2 LA block plane. The thought has occurred >to me lately that perhaps a Stanley 140 block plane with its skewed >blade might work well in some circumstances. Am I nuts? Will the plane >sole be square enough to the sole on the detachable side for this >purpose (I'm a right hander)? If it would be suitable, any Galoots >looking to sell a 140 or a Millers Falls 07 at a reasonable price? > > IIRC it's be cheaper to buy a LN #9! In any case the small size, low cheeks and low mass of the tool means that it is by no means "ultimate". Indeed, I'd have though the LV LA smoother would be very good in this role. I've found that simply setting the workpiece at a slight angle greatly helps with break out at the end ("spelching"). To achieve this I use a variation on a "false table" This is not so slick as a sloped ramp for the plane, but easier to make; you can also make them in various sizes (I have 2). The benefits are similar to a ramp; * wear on the blade is distributed * the entry and exit of the cut are gradual. This reduces "shock" at the start of the cut, and breakout at the exit. Of course, a skew bladed plane has all the merits of both ramps and sloped workpieces. The only drawback is the acquisition :-) BugBear ---- Start of Message 127994 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-22 10:07:04 Subject: Re: reversing glue joints Hide glue (Scotch, Animal, pearl ) is susceptible to attack with methylated spirits ( alcohol ) inject to the joint with a hypodermic in pretty large quantities This avoids using water, which may cause unwanted degradation of the piece in other ways, otherwise, of course, injecting water and heat - or steam, will make the joint fail. Plastic resin !=3F - dunno - Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 127995 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-22 09:31:35 Subject: Re: Bio Jon Pile wrote: >Now, for the obligatory newbie question. I noticed a few of my >less-loved (read: cheap) tools have developed a slight skin condition >(read: surface rust). I share my workspace with a clothes dryer that >vents a little warm humidity inside, but this is NoCal in January; it's >damp no matter what. > > W.R.T. the dryer, I'd reseach better (i.e. 100% outdoor) venting. BugBear ---- Start of Message 127996 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-22 09:37:36 Subject: RE: replacing broke pin on mortising guage In response to Alan, Jeff suggests. . >I believe that mortise gauge pins are sometimes soft soldered in place. >The best bet for replacements might be the shanks of drill bits. OTOH, The best replacement I've heard suggested is old gramophone needles. A GBP 1 will buy you a lifetime's supply. ready polished and pointed - right degree of hardness- just solder in and cut to length. - Now - about how to dismantle the gauge to access the point to extract the old one(s) . . . And, as Jeff says - they don't want to be too long - I'd suggest about a 1/8 inch would be plenty. Bon chance! Richard Wilson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 127997 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-22 09:44:07 Subject: Re: edge jointing boards Alan Womack wrote: >The radius on the plane blade puzzles me. I've been working with a >straight blade and don't see what the advantage of the radias is for >edge jointing. Recently I am considering some type of winding stick at >the front of the plane to help me with tilt. A full 8" out either side >would make it whole lot easier to see that I am twisting the plane. > > Ah! I see your difficulty. You DON'T carefull run the plane horizontally (in this approach; if you use a Stanley #386 or clone, the approach is different) http://www.antiquetools.com/mini-col/stanley-386/ You run the plane, firmly sole down in the edge being worked. Of course, if the blade were straight and parallel, this would merely perpetuate any pre-existing condition in the edge. But the radius on the blade means that the 2 extrema (width wise) of the blade take tapers of opposite slope. I'll steal an image from Jeff site at this point: http://www.amgron.clara.net/planingpoints/edgeplaning/IMAGE3.gif By moving the (firmly bedded) plane to left or right, a tapered shaving can be removed. The use of a try square allows you to know which tapers are required where. By varying the left-centre-right placing of your plane as each stoke proceeeds along the edge, any errors can be (gradually) removed, resulting in a pure square edge. BugBear ---- Start of Message 127998 ---- From: pedger66@j... Date: 2004-01-22 06:04:56 Subject: Re: design strength GGs: Mr. Sly made a hearty stool and someone kidded him about the design. Then there were questions about how to design for grace and strength. I heard a story about the development of the Model T Ford. They were trying to make it as light and cheaply as possible. Supposedly they would shave a component down and then take the car to the proving ground. They would continue this until the part easily broke. Then they would back up one step and that would be the design parameter. Interesting, huh? Just how many stools would one have to build to get the perfect design? (Then some lard a** galoot would naturally come along and crush it to flinders.) Ha! Phil E. PS: It's only in private she calls me "Lard A**". In public she calls me "Crisco". Ain't she nice? ---- Start of Message 127999 ---- From: "A Frampton" Date: 2004-01-22 11:09:15 Subject: RE: replacing broke pin on mortising guage Richard Wilson, Yorkshireman, writes: >OTOH, The best replacement I've heard suggested is old gramophone needles. > A GBP 1 will buy you a lifetime's supply. During my requisite galoot-nets-haul-of-patternmaker's-tools encounter, said patternmaker gave me a box of these, and they are indeed just the job. But also included where 1/2 a dozen (six, Paddy) points made from bamboo, the purpose of which I've yet to fathom (I haven't a clue what they were used to mark, everybody). At the risk of spitoon duty for thread hijacking, does anyone else know? Cheers, Alf Celebrating the one year anniversary of above mentioned tool acquisition in Cornwall, UK _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger ---- Start of Message 128000 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-22 11:36:34 Subject: Re: replacing broke pin on mortising guage A Frampton wrote: > Richard Wilson, Yorkshireman, writes: > >> OTOH, The best replacement I've heard suggested is old gramophone >> needles. >> A GBP 1 will buy you a lifetime's supply. > > > During my requisite galoot-nets-haul-of-patternmaker's-tools > encounter, said > patternmaker gave me a box of these, and they are indeed just the job. > > But also included where 1/2 a dozen (six, Paddy) points made from bamboo, > the purpose of which I've yet to fathom (I haven't a clue what they were > used to mark, everybody). At the risk of spitoon duty for thread > hijacking, does > anyone else know? If the purpose of a marking is ALWAYS to make a mark, there is no objection to the pin being (essentially) as hard as possible. If the purpose is NEVER to make a mark, you don't need a gauge :-) I therefore deduce that the bamboo pin is designed to make a mark "some of the time". If one were marking upon a "composite" object (e.g. a mixture of wood and brass) a bamboo pin would nicely mark the wood without marring up yer brass. BugBear ---- Start of Message 128001 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-22 06:56:34 Subject: Re: edge jointing boards Bugbear writes : >The use of a try square allows you to know which tapers >are required where. By varying the left-centre-right placing >of your plane as each stoke proceeeds along the edge, any errors can be >(gradually) removed, resulting in a pure square edge. And if you take a final shaving right down the middle it should be very slightly hollow, which is great. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 128002 ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-01-22 07:10:25 Subject: Re: another pipe axe Michael wrote..... > ... I thought I would > post a link for the newest one we have finished. The original axe was found > in the Mohawk valley, and we have undertaken this repro with the usual care. > The body of the axe is wrought iron with a welded steel bit. The handle > includes two silver bands inlayed along its length. ..... For the handle we chose tiger maple and inlayed > two bands along its length. Rest assured this is a useable tool and carries > a hardened and tempered edge. There are two available. Enjoy. > http://groups.msn.com/stacyandmichael/tuyure.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=102 > _________________________________________________________________ Very nice work!.....I used to make a good many pipe hawks and always enjoyed the work whether it was a fancy one with inlays in the steel or a plainer "working" type.One of the things that interested me was figuring out just how they were made originally which was important to me because that was how I had to make them. One pretty well known pipe axe was one made John Frazer a mid 1700's frontier blacksmith and Indian trader that once saved G. Washington life.According to his list of items lost to the French he had on hand a good many of these axes which got me thinking to about how he must have made them.A Frazer axe is made out of two pieces, the iron head,[with a steel insert] and the smoking bowl which threads into it.the problem for me was how to make the opening in the bowl.sure I could have drilled it out no trouble but Frazer didn't even have a post drill so I am sure that wasn't how he made it.What I did and what I bet he did was take the end that I had cut off a Muzzleloading gun Barrel I had forge welded up for a friend then forge welded a small "Stem" into the barrel stub opening.After threading this and drilling the small diameter hole down this stem center,[easy and even used my old bow drill ...for the first one!] it was a simple thing then to just put the two together after taping the head.Will point out that I looked long and hard for a set of Hand made "primitive" taps and dies that gave the right look for these threads.There is a difference and this points out how important even small details can be when making something like this.......Michael, enjoyed looking at your nice pipe axe almost got me a wanting to go make one again !..........Todd ---- Start of Message 128003 ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-01-22 07:18:50 Subject: Re: oak staining & shellac We had an incident in the violin shop with ammonia. One of the guys is a wonderful man and a great builder. He's fluent in Russian, Armenian, Italian, pig latin just not English. He was looking for something in the solvent cabinet and as he couldn't read the label he opened a jar and took a sniff. Well it was ammonia the laboratory grade not the house hold concentration. He had to sit down! It was a while before we could determine what was wrong. But it will do a nice job of coloring. Ken Jim Thompson wrote: > You can get almost the same results as fuming produces by first > applying tannic acid, then following it with liquid ammonia (27%). > This way you only have to tolerate the nasty ammonia fumes for a short > time. While the ammonia is still wet it will have a red look, but this > goes away as it dries to a nice antique oak look. > I use this method on most of the oak I use. > ---- Start of Message 128004 ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-01-22 07:25:09 Subject: Re: oak staining & shellac I like Kramer Pigments it's one stop shopping for all your paint and varnish needs. Good web site and free catalog. Catalog includes recipes for milk paint, watercolor, oils. Their idea is to allow one to do whatever type historic painting suits fancy. Sorry I don't have time to look up the address right now. I should be in the car on the way to work. Ken Patrick Olguin wrote: > > A google search for "dragon's blood dye" should net plenty of >sources. > >Paddy > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes >http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > ---- Start of Message 128005 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-22 06:40:27 Subject: RE: Bio I do the same trick... dryer heat vented inside the basement for the time being since I don't feel like going out in our currently -8.7 degree F weather to properly vent the dryer. A coat of marvel mystery oil helps. Just yesterday I modified an altoids tin to dump those silca gel pack contents into. I punched a bunch of holes in the tin. You can redry those out in the microwave(without the metal container of course) or in the oven. I've seen places sell units like this for 20-30 dollars. Once dry the silca gel can be reused. For unused or rarely used tools I employ the "high and dry" method. Like all my dad's old brace bits have been in a metal breadbox on some newspaper and in a cool, high, dry place. Rust loves warm and humid. I never think a few cotton rags around them are a bad idea so long as they are not oil saturated, obviously. The other technique I use on my T*ble S*w is to spray it with a Krylon clear acrylic commonly available in the paint section of any good hardware store. Stick with satin and no one will even know the finish is there but you won't see the rust. My TS has lasted years with that coat on it and I have only lightly redone it once which showed no more rust but I did it just as a preventive measure. > [Original Message] > From: Jon Pile > To: oldtools > Date: 1/21/2004 8:28:56 PM > Subject: [oldtools] Bio > > I've lurked for a long time, but now there are some points I want to add > to ongoing discussions; time to unlurk (de-lurk? uncloak?) and see if I > can help obfuscate things. > > I'm a Canadian software geek, now transplanted to beautiful Marin > County, California (north of the golden gate bridge). SWMBO adores it > here (me too), so I think we're stuck for good. > > So anyway, turns out I've been a galoot since I was five, but only in > the past few months have I found out that there were others out there. > Growing up, I always had access to my grandfather's wood (and > occasionally metal) shop. From that, I assembled a small set of > well-used hand tools and took up woodcarving. All of which ended with a > flurry of moves back and forth across the Atlantic. > > We've now settled. In a home. With a garage. Inexorably, I found myself > drawn back to woodworking for some measure of sanity and relaxation. > I've been acquiring tools - old, and new-old - and had a few of the > requisite galoot epiphanies while making shavings ("oh, THATS why..."). > > My GIT is 2 years old, covered in yellow fur, and lacking opposable > thumbs. He does spend quality time with me in the shop - converting big > sticks into smaller sticks using only his teeth. How's that for _old_ > tools! > > Now, for the obligatory newbie question. I noticed a few of my > less-loved (read: cheap) tools have developed a slight skin condition > (read: surface rust). I share my workspace with a clothes dryer that > vents a little warm humidity inside, but this is NoCal in January; it's > damp no matter what. > > Obviously my waxing job on the surfaces in question was insufficient, so > tonight I'll order some camelia oil to see if that will help. My > question is twofold: > > - any thoughts or experience on sharing space with a clothes dryer? > Specifically, is this tool suicide? > > - would storing tools in a sealed wooden box with some of those "FOR > PETES SAKE, DO NOT EAT" silica gel packets do anything to slow down or > prevent this? > > -jP > > (Jon Pile, at work in beautiful Marin County) > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 128006 ---- From: Bill Webber Date: 2004-01-22 07:53:42 Subject: Re: replacing broke pin on mortising guage The bamboo pins sound like phonograph needles also. Phonograph needles were made in many configurations and materials, including bamboo. The configuration of the needle affected the tone and volume of the music. They wear very quickly and simple steel and bamboo needles were supposed to be changed for each record. IIRC the next improvement was a tungsten tipped steel needle which could be used more than once. I like to crank up "Clancy loowered the boom..." from time to time in the shop but the record is well worn so I don't change the needle as often as I should. Regards, A Frampton wrote: > Richard Wilson, Yorkshireman, writes: > > >OTOH, The best replacement I've heard suggested is old gramophone > >needles. A GBP 1 will buy you a lifetime's supply. > > During my requisite galoot-nets-haul-of-patternmaker's-tools > encounter, said patternmaker gave me a box of these, and they are > indeed just the job. > > But also included where 1/2 a dozen (six, Paddy) points made from > bamboo, the purpose of which I've yet to fathom (I haven't a clue what > they were used to mark, everybody). At the risk of spitoon duty for > thread hijacking, does anyone else know? > > Cheers, Alf Celebrating the one year anniversary of above mentioned > tool acquisition in Cornwall, UK > > _________________________________________________________________ > It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! > http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To > unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools -- Bill W. Woodworkers visit me at: http://Highland_House.tripod.com ---- Start of Message 128007 ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 2004-01-22 09:20:54 Subject: Re: Auger bit question Jonathan Peck asked: >Are there any familiar with: >Set No. 200 Jennings Pattern Extension Cut Spur Auger Bits >Maufactured by THE SNELL MANUFACTURING CO. FISKDALE, MASS. >Pat. Sept 28 1886. > >What is a pattern extension cut spur auger bit? >Some are are marked SNELL JENNINGS, Excelsior, and SNELL >M"FG CO. I'm not familiar with these particular bits, so can't answer your specific question. I'm wondering, though, if they wouldn't be described as "Extension Cut Spur Auger Bits" in the Jennings Pattern? In the hopes that the patent would help shed some light on your question, I spent some time attempting to track that down. I may very well be overlooking something, but the only patent for Sept. 28, 1886, which seemed possibly relevant, was patent No. 350,016, issued to G.E. Richards, for a "Box for Tools" (i.e. auger bits). The patent was assigned to the Snell Manufacturing Company. So, it seems possible that the "Pat. Sept 28, 1886" text refers to the box rather than to the bits. ?? I then turned to the DAT to see if there might be any additional hints. The listing for the Snell Manufacturing Company included the following: "... One item they made had a 21 Dec. 1858 patent which was reissued 3 Aug. 1869." That being my only lead, I decided to see if I could track that patent down. As best I can determine, the patent in question is No. 22,379, issued Dec. 21, 1858, to George F. Rice, of Worcester, MA, for a boring machine. The Letters Patent indicates it was reissued on August 3, 1869. The reissued patent, RE3574, was granted to: "Emory L. Bates (Assignee of George F. Rice.), of Fiskedale, Massachusetts." No specific mention of the Snell Manufacturing Company, though Mr. Bates' location seems potentially significant. Unfortunately, a patent for a boring machine doesn't shed any light on the bits in question. Do you think the bits are original? And, if so, is there anything notable about them? Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 128008 ---- From: "Ed O'Riordan" Date: 2004-01-22 09:45:13 Subject: RE: edge jointing boards I don't agree with grinding a radius on a jointer blade. I prefer to use the lateral adjuster. Drop the corner of the blade that is on the high edge of the board. I want to always be planing down the middle of the jointer with the jointer straight up and down (large muscle memory) regardless of what I am trying to do with an edge. In other words do it only one way and become good at it. Once flat return the blade to parallel with the sole and take a full width shaving the whole length of the board or slightly spring the board by taking an extra shaving towards the center of the board (center in length). Ed O' >The radius on the plane blade puzzles me. I've been working with a >straight blade and don't see what the advantage of the radias is for edge jointing. Recently I am considering some type of winding stick at the front of the plane to help me with tilt. A full 8" out either side would make it whole lot easier to see that I am twisting the plane. > > ---- Start of Message 128009 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-22 14:45:43 Subject: oaken well cover I've just been commissioned to make a cover for a well from oak. well - 30' hole in ground full of 25' of water. Brick circular top Children in family - well =3D magnetism, depth =3D hazard.. So, My thoughts are to arrange some boards beside each other, make a suitable bow saw, and saw out the shape of the top. Now - for the well knowledgeable amongst us - Do I need to allow for air movement=3F If so, then a barred window in the centre, needing brace, bit, pole lathe, gouge, skew chisel, calipers, would be good, and then perhaps space the boards apart by about an inch using dowels as both spacers and joiners. On the underside a pair of boards cross wise - brass screwed upwards to ensure the whole thing stands abuse, and on the top a couple of shaped handles needing some detail work with a spokeshave - the bow saw should suffice for cutting out. There is a question about some form of lock which would look in keeping and sightly. Thoughts=3F suggestions=3F I'm at the stage of thinking a chunky 2 x 3 through mortice at each side, and bolt a couple of upward projecting tenons to the inside well sides to project through the lid. A simple stainless pin through the tenon with a padlock to prevent withdrawal would then suffice. But I'd like to avoid the lock being on top. Perhaps the pin runs through below and is locked off via the barred window=3F=3F Help! Richard Wilson Thinking if 't were mine I couldn't afford what I'd need to charge to meet the spec using twiddly bits. . . ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 128010 ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-01-22 10:01:58 Subject: RE: edge jointing boards Ed O'Riordan wrote: >I don't agree with grinding a radius on a jointer blade. I prefer to >use the lateral adjuster. Drop the corner of the blade that is on the >high edge of the board. And to put in a word for the third path: Straight-ground blade. Non-tilted adjuster. Plane held straight and level. Now, move the plane side-to-side as needed to bring down the "high" side of the edge. When you can get a full-width, full-length shaving, you're done. N ---- Start of Message 128011 ---- From: Dmwarder@a... Date: 2004-01-22 10:12:20 Subject: Re: replacing broke pin on mortising guage Alf, I have seem many old Victrolas with their small trays of steel needles and also some bamboo needles. When I questioned a "knowledgeable" expert at an antique mall, he stated that the steel needles were hard on records, and that bamboo needles were used on transcription quality records to extend record life. Apparently the bamboo needles had a much shorter life than the steel needles, thus the presence of steel needles for "common" use. Perhaps the needles the patternmaker gave you came from a grammophone containing both as I have observed, and thus were designed for transcription playing not marking. Just a speculation and repeat of hearsay explanation as I have no experience to verify. Dale in Greer SC ---- Start of Message 128012 ---- From: Kirk Eppler Date: 2004-01-22 07:39:53 Subject: Re: oak staining & shellac I've used Jeff Jewitt's recipe for a mission finish (See it at) http://www.woodcentral.com/shots/shot108.shtml Jeff's got a slightly different approach now. (Starts down the page a way) http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/mission_oak.htm I'd drop Jeff a note, and ask him how to minimize the grain Also, an article in the Cleveland Plain Dealer about the guy, for the interested. http://www.cleveland.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/107450832864460.xm- l?nohio%3cBR%3e Larry Marshall wrote about degraining a mission finish. > What I need to do, however, is darken it and, at the same time reduce > the contrast in the grain. I figure that the best way to do that is > with a dye rather than a pigment so I'm looking for some 'hey, this > works' suggestions. Is there a super-dee-duper paste wood filler that > would both fill the grain and tone down the grain simultaneously? -- Kirk Eppler (Quoting various previous sources, in terms of brevity and bandwidth, as well as to promote getting out on the web and looking) No financial interest, other than too occasionally sending him money, and finishing stuff shows up on my porch. And his "Hand Applied Finishes is a great book, which I promised Mr. Greenberg I'd write a review of. Global Mfg Science and Technology Eppler.Kirk@g... ---- Start of Message 128013 ---- From: Scott Stager Date: 2004-01-22 09:42:27 Subject: RE: wtb: Studley poster Ok, here's the quote from the poster itself (which I have hanging outside my cubicle at work - neener, neener) "Maine native Pete Hardwick now owns the chest, which has been in his family since it was bequethed to his grandfather by Studley. Hardwick acquired the chest from his brother by trading a 1934 Ford sedan for it. A good trade?" There is no date on the poster, but the mailing tube it came in (kept of course for later transport :0) has a postage date of July 1, 1998. --Scott At 02:11 PM 1/21/2004, Christopher Otto wrote: >Okay, that got me thinkin' and searchin' -- the name Peter Hardwick pops >up there as the owner of the chest (thanks to you too, Tim, for your >reply...) and further searching on the name resulted in a porch message >from 1996 > >http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_id= >2583 > >...referring to a FWW discussion of the chest which named Pete Hardwick >as the owner. If memory serves this issue was from the mid-80's, >correct? (Or was there more discussion in a more recent issue?) I'm >wondering if Hardwick might be a previous owner... > >Chris O. >SE Wisconsin > >-----Original Message----- >From: Andrew F in Australia [mailto:eddie_d_eagle@y...] >Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 1:43 PM >To: oldtools >Subject: RE: [oldtools] wtb: Studley poster > > >The info is under our collective noses. > >Look at the smithsonsonian link again - then look at the details of the >studley chest - includes the name of the person who lent/lends it to the >smithsoninan > >http://americanhistory.si.edu/toolbox/ > >You may be able to get more from the link than I can. > >Cheers, > >Andrew > > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools +=======================================================+ Scott Stager IT System Support (573)-882-9289 University of Missouri System ---- Start of Message 128014 ---- From: Kirk Eppler Date: 2004-01-22 07:58:50 Subject: Re: The MOUSE smell Nature's Miracle. An enzyme for cleaning up after pet messes. Spray it lightly, several times, may take weeks. Certain animals' urine fluoresces (sp?) under blacklight, lets you know when its out, don't know about mice. Thomas Johnson asked > I just landed some super Berg paper boxes.... they smell like the > bottom of a mouse trap. Ideas??? -- Kirk Eppler, owner of two dogs and a cat, who keeps the stuff handy at all times Global Mfg Science and Technology Eppler.Kirk@g... ---- Start of Message 128015 ---- From: "john" Date: 2004-01-22 08:03:06 Subject: RE: oaken well cover Hi Richard and all, As a kid, I found a number of old wells around, nearly all covered with wood. Nearly all were rotten and/or had some of the boards pried up. If they were my kids, I'd weld a plate over the darned thing. John Quinn Santa Rosa -----Original Message----- From: Richard.Wilson@s... [mailto:Richard.Wilson@s...] Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 6:46 AM To: oldtools Subject: [oldtools] oaken well cover I've just been commissioned to make a cover for a well from oak. ---- Start of Message 128016 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-22 09:03:24 Subject: Re: Stanley 140 as a Shooting Board Plane, possible WTB A skew blade plane still distributes wear unevenly on the blade, doesn't it? At least that's why I'm thinking about ways to ramp the workpiece on a #52. Blake ---- Start of Message 128017 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-22 16:15:36 Subject: RE: oaken well cover John, and several other folk , have been sending good advice and warnings about wells.. Thanks to all >s a kid, I found a number of old wells around, nearly all covered with wood. Nearly all were rotten and/or had some of the boards pried up. If they were my kids, I'd weld a plate over the darned thing. I'll just point out that this well has a brick collar around a couple of feet high, so casually walking over it and vanishing isn't a question - though I'm now more mindful of the various safety and pollution issues raised. Incidentally - I found the reputed well at our cottage in Suffolk under the Iris bed. - The spade vanished, and I nearly went with it. . . seems it went out of commission when mains water came to the village, had a couple of boards placed over, and the flower bed atop that. Lets just say(tm) that I left it with a concrete cover lurking under the flower bed. Richard ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 128018 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-01-22 08:36:30 Subject: Re: Bio Howdy Jon Welcome aboard When you look into the dryer, look just in back of the blower fan inside the dryer. You'll have to do some disassembly to get to it. (watch your hands very closely. EVERYTHING inside an appliance is sharp!!) This is the place lint will slowly buildup reducing your airflow out the vent and causing steam to escape (slowing the drying of your laundry in the process). Been there, suffered that, and more than once. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 128019 ---- From: NickNaylo@a... Date: 2004-01-22 11:57:09 Subject: Re: wtb: Studley poster Ok, here's the quote from the poster itself (which I have hanging outside my cubicle at work - neener, neener) Mine hangs framed over the throne in the bathroom at home. Being the only male in the family, the womenfolk don't object, they almost forget its there. I, on the the other hand, have it memorized. Michael-San Francisco (still bugging Taunton press for a Carlyle Lynch style measured drawing of the Studley chest) ---- Start of Message 128020 ---- From: NickNaylo@a... Date: 2004-01-22 11:59:00 Subject: Re: [oldtools]Bio.. - would storing tools in a sealed wooden box with some of those "FOR PETES SAKE, DO NOT EAT" silica gel packets do anything to slow down or prevent this? -jP (Jon Pile, at work in beautiful Marin County) Welcome aboard Jon. Being on the other side of the bay from you, in Richmond, I can say that those little gel pacs are a godsend. I save them from all the stuff they come in (damn near everything now) and have the little buggers liberally sprinkled around my toolchest. No rust. Shop is a 12x12 outbuilding, no insulation, not wet but certainly not dry. Others will no doubt indicate where you can buy the packets in bulk, but they seem to find me without having to go that route. Michael-Richmond CA-right across the bay from the Golden Gate. ---- Start of Message 128021 ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-01-22 09:37:17 Subject: re: replacing broke pin on mortising guage >> The immediate question on most peoples lips would be could you recheck the >> number of pins, as you mention four - three or four in total?? I count better than I type. The number of remaining pins is 2, the total number is 3. A photo of the broken pin: http://arwomack01.home.att.net/images/brokepin.jpg -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ---- Start of Message 128022 ---- From: Mike Rock Date: 2004-01-22 11:56:25 Subject: Re: Cutting Wooden Threads The only problem with cutting threads on a metal cutting lathe is the lack of slow gearing. Most lathes go to really fine threads, but only so coarse. With more change gears, it is possible. I used a 'router' to cut 2 1/2" threads on my lathe, with slow gearing. Also used CNC, but that is another story. The cutter I copied for the wood screws on the small lathe was ground from a standard tool blank, 3/8" sq. A 60 degree notch was ground from top to almost bottom, an inch into the cutter. Then the outside was ground to within a smidgen of the outside at the front, tapering thicker rearword. Heck, it is the same as a veining tool!!!!!!! Hold that in a toolholder and have at it, taking multiple cuts, not all at once. ---- Start of Message 128023 ---- From: "A Frampton" Date: 2004-01-22 17:57:27 Subject: Re: replacing broke pin on mortising guage Dale, and others, suggested the following: > >I have seem many old Victrolas with their small trays of steel needles and >also some bamboo needles. When I questioned a "knowledgeable" expert at an >antique mall, he stated that the steel needles were hard on records, and >that >bamboo needles were used on transcription quality records to extend record >life. >Apparently the bamboo needles had a much shorter life than the steel >needles, >thus the presence of steel needles for "common" use. To which I can only say "D'oh!" and possibly "I'm just too young to know anything about gramophones" :~) > >Perhaps the needles the patternmaker gave you came from a grammophone >containing both as I have observed, and thus were designed for >transcription playing >not marking. Well honestly, how was I supposed to guess? I see gramophone needles, I think marking gauges. What else *would* a galoot think? Actually he did hand the tin over specifically describing them as points for his marking gauge, which I already had from my first visit, so my totally blinkered outlook wasn't without circumstantial backup. That's my story anyway... Thanks very much for clearing up that little mystery for me, folks. Sort of a shame though, because I rather liked BugBear's theory :~) Cheers, Alf Cornwall, UK _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo ---- Start of Message 128024 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-22 13:09:13 Subject: Re: Auger bit question Hello Dan and all, >I'm not familiar with these particular bits, so can't >answer your specific question. I'm wondering, though, if >they wouldn't be described as "Extension Cut Spur Auger >Bits" in the Jennings Pattern? Yes, that makes perfect sense, as I believe that these auger bits were were manufactured by Snell in the Jennings pattern. Knowing what a spur auger bit is, I guess my question is "what is an extension cut?". The box reads "Jennings Pattern Extension Cut Spur Auger Bits". But I think you could look at it like this Jennings Pattern Extension Cut Spur Auger Bits While all the bits are not original to the set, the ones that appear to be are marked SNELL JENNINGS and lokk to be of good quality Thanks Jonathan ---- Start of Message 128025 ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 2004-01-22 14:08:28 Subject: Re: The MOUSE smell At 11:23 PM 1/21/2004 -0600, Thomas Johnson wrote: >I just landed some super Berg paper boxes.... What are "Berg paper boxes"? ---- Start of Message 128026 ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 2004-01-22 14:13:10 Subject: RE: edge jointing boards Ed O'Riordan wrote: >I don't agree with grinding a radius on a jointer blade. I prefer to >use the lateral adjuster. Drop the corner of the blade that is on the >high edge of the board. > >I want to always be planing down the middle of the jointer with the >jointer straight up and down (large muscle memory) regardless of what I >am trying to do with an edge. In other words do it only one way and >become good at it. Once flat return the blade to parallel with the sole >and take a full width shaving the whole length of the board ... . I must confess to being confused by the logic of this approach. If the cutting edge is straight and adjusted parallel with the sole of the plane, and if you are able to hold the plane perfectly straight up and down, shouldn't that result in a square edge without having to adjust the iron laterally? If so, I can think of two reasons for laterally adjusting the iron. One would be to speed the process up. In which case I'd think that simply advancing the iron would be the more predictable solution. The second reason would be that the plane, in fact, isn't being held and maintained in a perfectly perpendicular orientation. In this instance the stated rationale seems to fall short of explaining the process. Nichael Cramer followed up with: >Straight-ground blade. Non-tilted adjuster. Plane held straight >and level. > >Now, move the plane side-to-side as needed to bring down the >"high" side of the edge. When you can get a full-width, full-length >shaving, you're done. I'm similarly confused by the logic of this approach. Again, if the blade has a straight cutting edge adjusted parallel with the sole, and the plane is being held perfectly perpendicular, why the need to move the plane laterally? I sense that the the primary objection to the "cambered cutting edge" approach is that it does not rely on a person's innate sense of plumb and level. While there is a bit of trade-off in that this approach places more of a premium on other sensory input, I don't think it necessarily follows that it interferes with, or deadens, our basic kinesthetic sense of orientation. In truth, there are trade-offs with both approaches. If the edge you are shooting is out of square, and your goal is to hold the plane vertical at all costs, then you are choosing to override the control which is inherent in the plane's sole registering on the surface of the material. The type of control which is the very raison d'etre of the plane. In line with this, you run the risk of developing the bad habit of working against your tools rather than taking advantage of their capabilities. I won't be so naive as to claim that there is absolutely no danger of developing a bad habit of ignoring one's innate kinesthetic sense when using the cambered cutting edge approach. But I think that risk can be managed and and minimized. I try to be constantly aware of sensing that an edge is out of square, even as I register my try plane on it for the next cut. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 128027 ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-01-22 14:35:49 Subject: RE: edge jointing boards Don McConnell wrote: >Nichael Cramer followed up with: >>Straight-ground blade. Non-tilted adjuster. Plane held straight >>and level. >>Now, move the plane side-to-side as needed to bring down the >>"high" side of the edge. When you can get a full-width, full-length >>shaving, you're done. > >I'm similarly confused by the logic of this approach. Again, if the >blade has a straight cutting edge adjusted parallel with the sole, and >the plane is being held perfectly perpendicular, why the need to move >the plane laterally? Yeah, that's a valid question. Speaking only for myself, though, moving over to the side seems to work better (that is, I seem to keep the plane more in line) that when I try span the whole work. I don't suggest this is a logical argument. You're right that it shouldn't really help. But it does seem to. Maybe it's something of an "optical illusion. Dunno. But I can only say it does seem to work better for me to do it this way. (As someone said earlier, "body memory", maybe.) >In truth, there are trade-offs with both approaches. True indeed. I would only alter "both" to "all". ;-) N ---- Start of Message 128028 ---- From: Jim Nelson Date: 2004-01-22 14:36:07 Subject: Re: oaken well cover At 02:45 PM 1/22/2004 +0000, Richard.Wilson@s... wrote: >Perhaps the pin runs through below and is locked off via the barred >window?? Well, nobody will ever unlock it, but operating a padlock through such a barred window does sound like a test of nerves: pushing one's naked hands through a barricade of cobwebs and into the dank, dark, (inhabited) space concealed.... Some runes carved into the top would heighten the drama. ---- Start of Message 128029 ---- From: "Peter Monson" Date: 2004-01-22 19:04:40 Subject: Jointer (trying) plane advice wanted Hello good galoots: I am considering buying a big plane (approx. 22-24" in length), primarily for flattening large table tops, etc., and wanted to get some of the collective wisdom of this group. (I have checked the archives but didn't find much on point.) I am wondering about the relative merits of a cast iron versus wooden jointer/try planes. For example, how would a good quality Stanley #7 or 8(type 11?? based on recent discussions), or Bed Rock 607/608, compare to a wooden jointer/try plane either an older one in good condition or a new wooden one, such as one of Steve Knight's? It would seem that a wooden one might be more easily "tuned" so as to be perfectly flat, since lapping a large iron plane flat could be pretty challenging. What other factors should I consider? Thanks to all for any advice you can offer, either on or off-list. Peter Monson peter.c.monson@u... ---- Start of Message 128030 ---- From: Chris Freemesser Date: 2004-01-22 14:45:16 Subject: Re: Bow saw question >John, I don't think you are doing anything wrong. I received one >of these as a present last year. I found that I had to hammer almost >all the set out of the teeth to make it cut acceptably. The blade >has way too much set as it is sold, and the way teeth are sharpened >left a burr on one side of the saw. After hammering the set out, I >sharpened it and stoned it until it cut straight. I also received one of these saws as a Christmas gift this year (BTW, they come with a 7-point "generic" blade, neither really a crosscut or rip blade), and found that mine also pulled wickedly to the left. However, it still did so after I hammered out the set, reset, resharpened, and stoned the blade. I then put what I considered a lot of tension on the blade, and it then cut straight. It's my first bow/frame saw, so I didn't know how much tension it really needed. I subsequently bought a few more blades for it, including a 5-point rip so I could resaw some boards. Gave the new blade the same set/reset/resharpen/stoning treatment, tensioned it up, and it cut straight too. Chris -- ---- Start of Message 128031 ---- From: "Ed O'Riordan" Date: 2004-01-22 14:48:56 Subject: RE: edge jointing boards You lower one edge to make corrections to. You are correct in saying that if the edge is parallel to the sole and you hold the plane straight up and down you will not need to make this correction. -----Original Message----- From: Don McConnell [mailto:DMCCONN@c...] I must confess to being confused by the logic of this approach. If the cutting edge is straight and adjusted parallel with the sole of the plane, and if you are able to hold the plane perfectly straight up and down, shouldn't that result in a square edge without having to adjust the iron laterally? If the edge you are shooting is out of square, and your goal is to hold the plane vertical at all costs, then you are choosing to override the control which is inherent in the plane's sole registering on the surface of the material. The type of control which is the very raison d'etre of the plane. In line with this, you run the risk of developing the bad habit of working against your tools rather than taking advantage of their capabilities. If you don't override the planes inherent registering on the surface of the material and keep the blade adjusted parallel to the sole there is no way to correct an out of square condition. You need to either tilt the plane, tilt the blade, or radius the blade and use the side of the edge. I prefer to always keep the plane straight up, always plane right down the center of the plane and tilt the blade using the lateral adjuster to correct an out of square situation when jointing. Ed O' ---- Start of Message 128032 ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-01-22 15:19:18 Subject: Galoot's side trip I In Alameda for business on Tuesday, I lucked into an invite to meet Greg Isola and see his shop. As an extra bonus, we had dinner, drank beer, and met his charming wife and kids. A vast improvement over my usual business trip evenings spent with email, Web surfing, and TV. Note: Greg's much too defensive about his woodworking -- he's building a sturdy workbench entirely from Borg fir lumber, and with no sign of assistance from tailed apprentices, which is really a labor of love. He's definitely the sort of guy that can out-build me, armed only with a Workmutt and surform rasp, and under the influence of other Bay Area galoots has clearly slid down the slope. Crammed in his (tiny) garage (Model T-sized, apparently), there are (more than) several handsaws, a cabinet of planes and other edged instruments of destruction, and a growing pile of eggbeater drills. It was also cool to handle one of Brian Buckner's "tools"/works of art, especially since it showed up as part of the 2003 gift exchange -- a service to Galoots everywhere for which he earned at least one of the beers mentioned above. Expect great things if Greg ever gets easy access to cheap hardwood -- molding planes were mentioned, as were chairs. I realize that this isn't a competition, but I did gloat a bit about the wood I've been buying at KM Hardwoods. Living in "fly-over" country, I'm definitely ahead of him on quality and cost for domestic hardwood. It was fun to mention the "exorbitant" price I paid for 8/4 x 7-inch lengths of white oak ($4.30/bf) and the bargain woods, such as hard maple shorts at $1.60/bf, since his eyes popped out a little farther each time.... Thanks again to Greg and his family for an excellent Galootish greeting, Ken "Back in Milwaukee/Brookfield WI" Meltsner You can't spell "Galoot" without g-l-o-a-t. ---- Start of Message 128033 ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-01-22 12:21:32 Subject: Re: Jointer (trying) plane advice wanted Peter Monson wrote: > Hello good galoots: I am considering buying a big plane (approx. 22-24" in length), primarily for flattening large table tops, etc., and wanted to get some of the collective wisdom of this group. (I have checked the archives but didn't find much on point.) > I am wondering about the relative merits of a cast iron versus wooden jointer/try planes. For example, how would a good quality Stanley #7 or 8(type 11?? based on recent discussions), or Bed Rock 607/608, compare to a wooden jointer/try plane either an older one in good condition or a new wooden one, such as one of Steve Knight's? It would seem that a wooden one might be more easily "tuned" so as to be perfectly flat, since lapping a large iron plane flat could be pretty challenging. What other factors should I consider? Well, for one thing I don't believe (and it is just that, a belief) that you HAVE to lap a jointer plane perfectly flat. From what I've been reading, so long as the toe, heel, and area just ahead of the mouth are in the same plane, you're fine. If other areas of the sole happen to share that plane, so much the better. Obviously, the other areas of the sole shouldn't be PROUD of that toe/mouth/heel plane. I have an Knight jointer, but haven't yet used it. It's a beautiful piece of work though. However, your concern seemed to be mainly related to sole flatness and lapping, which I don't believe is a huge issue. As far as bedrock vs. non, which type, and so forth, well... I'm not sure that once tuned, that that difference much matters in the end product, that being a flat surface. Type 'x' might be more fiddly than type 'y', and bedrocks have some nifty features, but I'm not sure that it matters [much] when all is said and done. Lastly, good luck trying to FIND a type 11 or bedrock jointer for a reasonable price. It seems everyone and his brother is scrambling for them. The Knight jointer is a fearsome, beautiful, scary beast, and you can get one for a reasonable price, quickly. #7's are in pretty good supply, so my advice would be to pick either of those and start shoppin'. Anyone with opposing views, by all means air them. I'm new at this and would love to learn from anyone elses experience. Michael, feeling contemplative. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128034 ---- From: Kirk Eppler Date: 2004-01-22 12:25:35 Subject: Re: Bow saw question I tighten mine til it makes a nice sound when you twang it. Not too deep, not too high, it just sounds "right". Seems to cut best there. Ugly sound = ugly cut. Chris Freemesser wrote: > It's my first bow/frame saw, so I didn't know how much tension it really > needed. -- Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA Global Mfg Science and Technology Eppler.Kirk@g... ---- Start of Message 128035 ---- From: tad@o... Date: 2004-01-22 15:25:35 Subject: Re: Jointer (trying) plane advice wanted It would seem that a > wooden one might be more easily "tuned" so as to be perfectly flat, > since lapping a large iron plane flat could be pretty challenging. What > other factors should I consider? Naturally you need several of each type of jointer for various tasks. For the task of flattening tabletops, I generally prefer wood on wood. The reason for this has nothing to do with the technical merits, but rather the simple fact that a wooden plane weighs a whole lot less than its iron cousin... /Tad ---- Start of Message 128036 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-22 13:32:42 Subject: RE: edge jointing boards If the edge you are jointing is out of square to the face, the jointer plane is going to want to keep it that way. Holding the plane exactly perpendicular to the face to try and shave the edge down square means trying to balance the plane on the high corner - not easily done, in my experience, and not what the jointer plane is designed to do. I used to square up the edge by using the lateral adjustment, but this meant having to readjust the iron twice. For me it's simpler to just slide her over for a few licks of the cambered extremity of the blade and then bring it back center once it's square. There is at least one problem with the cambered iron method: I like to plane the edges of the two boards to be joined at the same time so any minor deviation from 90 degrees cancels out. But if the stock is thick, planing the two boards together can put the edges out past the flat part of the iron creating problems. Of course this is a problem that is easily solved by having more jointer planes - so I guess it isn't really a problem. ;-) Blake ---- Start of Message 128037 ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-01-22 15:36:26 Subject: Galoot's side trip, part II While surfing the web after I visited Greg (cf. part I), I found an address for a shop in Milwaukee that claimed to sharpen handsaws as well as the usual weapons of edged destruction. Mr. B's Blades is in a industrial building just south of Bradley on 73rd St., so it's only ~3 miles from my office. Back in deep freeze after my trip to California, I took a long lunch break and visited Mr. B. There are no frills here -- no drop-off counter, no "Open" sign, nothing. There is a 20-foot slice of industrial building filled with an incredible variety of sharpening machines, welding equipment, and other stuff I didn't recognize. Turns out Mr. B can sharpen handsaws -- "by hand if the machine doesn't cooperate," he told me -- and has an Acme sharpener. The Acme sharpener is essentially a tailed apprentice for filing teeth. There's a file holder (it takes ordinary triangular files), a manual indexing lever, a tpi adjuster to change the indexed spacing, and a m*t*r to drive the file back and forth. The saw itself is held in a cast iron saw vise that looks like most of the unpowered saw vises I've seen (in pictures). He also has a Foley sharpener set up for circular saw blades, although the carrier for handsaws is "somewhere" in the shop. I believe he hand-sets the teeth. Since I hadn't brought my saws with me, I ordered a circular rip blade for my Sh*psm*th and will bring him a handsaw or two when I pick it up. Trust me folks; he may use that lectrickal stuff, but none of his tools would qualify as new, and anyone that can hand-build a 36-inch diameter rip blade, and would still be willing to hand-sharpen an aged D8 deserves whatever business I can throw his way. And whenever I have time to learn handsaw sharpening, starting with a properly sharpened saw will make it a lot easier. Ken "Sliding down the slope" Meltsner ---- Start of Message 128038 ---- From: "Terry McClean" Date: 2004-01-22 20:31:25 Subject: RE: edge jointing boards I shared Dan's confusion about Ed's technique, but I think I've got it clear now. Correct me if I'm wrong. Ed planes down the middle of the edge. The sole of the plane is in full contact with the edge. It's not parallel to the desired flat line. By using the lateral lever, so that the blade takes more wood off the high side than the low side, he planes down the surface of the edge. Gradually, because more wood is being removed from high side than the low side, the edge becomes 90 degrees to the face. To me, Dan's interpretation of Ed's technique, would see Ed planing down the edge of the board with the sole of the plane only in contact with the high side. Sounds like a difficult task, but if you could hold the plane like that, the high side would be lowered until the 90 degree edge to the face is achieved. In this case, using the lateral adjust lever would not make sense, and advancing the blade would just hog off more wood and make the whole deal go faster. But if Dan's interpretation accepts Ed's sole being in full contact with the edge, then not using the lateral adjust but advancing the blade would not square up the edge. I feel like I'm debating the number of angels dancing on a pin. But it seems to clear to me. Make any sense to anyone else? ---- Start of Message 128039 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-22 16:13:40 Subject: Re: Jointer (trying) plane advice wanted Keep in mind that a wooden plane is three inches thicker than its iron counterpart. If you have a sensitive back this can be an issue. At one point I raised my workbench a few inches to make it more comfortable only to find that it was then a bit too high to use toted wooden planes on. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 128040 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-01-22 16:14:37 Subject: Re: oak staining & shellac > Jeff's got a slightly different approach now. (Starts down the > page a way) > > http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/mission_oak.htm > > I'd drop Jeff a note, and ask him how to minimize the grain This is what I would probably use if I had the tints available but I haven't walked into the right store here in Quebec City to find them :-) One need only read Jeff's description to understand what to do as Jeff has done what I suggested in my initial post...use a dye to color the wood. H gains the increased grain look by using a pigmented glaze after getting a base color. Thanks for the reference. I think I'm going to try what Richard suggested to me privately. I'll fil the grain with a pumice/shellac mixture and then use a pigmented stain on top of the shellac barrier. This should even things out somewhat...though I haven't done it yet :-) I have faith in Richard's advice. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 128041 ---- From: "Dan Clermont in Burnaby" Date: 2004-01-22 21:44:21 Subject: Sliding Dovetails in a Closet Organizer I was hoping to practice some sliding dovetails in a Closet Organizer I am making for LOML. On the right side of the Organizer will be drawers and shelves, the left side will be hanging clothes (two rows). David Charelsworth recomends making the back of the carcase slightly wider then the front for good drawers. How is that going to affect the sliding dovetails? Or should I be doing dadoes. One other thing, the drawers will be sitting on basically "shelves" rather then making dust covers. I figure it may take me awhile to make the drawers and if LOML doesn't like them at least she has a shelf. TIA, Dan Clermont (who loves the sliding dovetail joint) ---- Start of Message 128042 ---- From: Timothy Collins Date: 2004-01-22 17:09:36 Subject: Re: Jointer (trying) plane advice wanted I have (and use) a stanely 8 (was my first plane purchase), a 21 inch wooden plane (paid $40 for it) and a 22 inch wood plane (was my great grandfather the cabnet maker). I'd be careful buying and old wooden plane for this. Many of them have wide mouths, and beat up wedges combined with a blade that's not original (at least most that I see have this) which results in a blade that won't stay seated, comes loose a lot (very frustrating when trying to flatten a large board). Once sharp, and wedged tight they do a fairly good job. My 8 has a very narrow mouth, nearly like a smoothing plane, which limits tear out. Its a heavy sucker, and smoothing a wide board or table top is a real work out. I found it easier to start with the wooden plane, and just finish with the 8 (smoothing out any tear outs). tim ---- Start of Message 128043 ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-01-22 16:12:25 Subject: Transitional plane sizes I have a weird favor to ask of the assembled galoots... I need a couple of odd measurements for a Stanley #30 transitional jointer. In particular I need to know: - the width/height of the sole block - the total height (from the bottom of the sole to the top of the tote) I'm trying to figure some dimensions from a photograph of a toolbox, and my best point of reference is a #30. If somebody who has one of these can get these measurements for me, it'd be very helpful... Thanks! -- Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL - OTLM, ENB, FOYBIPO "Science works even if you don't believe in it..." - Penn Jillette ---- Start of Message 128044 ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-01-22 14:35:13 Subject: Re: Jointer (trying) plane advice wanted Very limited experience here, so I'm sure other advice will be more appreciated and valuable. I just wanted to take the opportunity to gloat that I'll soon be able to do a side-by-side comparison as I have a nice #7 sized B-Plane ("Birmingham, late 19th-century American plane) which I really like, and I've ordered and am waiting for a nice razee jointer from Steve Knight. Once I get that I'll let you know. I do have a couple of other older woody jointers, but I've not yet got the hang of getting them set correctly. I seem to go straight from no cut at all to digging a ditch. It seems like if you could get these monsters well tuned then they'd be amazing to work with as they have so much mass and the irons are so thick. SGFH conclusion: So, the answer is to buy at least one of all of them and do the comparison yourself. Right? AAAndrew Hoping the Knight plane comes in time to do the edge jointing of his table project in Durham, North Carolina. --- Peter Monson wrote: > Hello good galoots: I am considering buying a big > plane (approx. 22-24" in length), primarily for > flattening large table tops, etc., and wanted to get > some of the collective wisdom of this group. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128045 ---- From: "Carter Altman" Date: 2004-01-22 15:33:52 Subject: RE: edge jointing boards > -----Original Message----- > From: Blake Ashley [mailto:BAshley1@c...] > > I used to square up the edge by using the lateral adjustment, but this > meant having to readjust the iron twice. For me it's simpler to just > slide her over for a few licks of the cambered extremity of the blade > and then bring it back center once it's square. This is what I like about using the cambered iron on my jointer. I don't have to fuss switching the lateral adjuster back and forth as I correct my previous over correction. I also seem to end up with some wind along the edges of most of the boards that I edge joint (i.e.. high on the right at the start of the board and high on the left at the end). With the cambered iron I am able to correct this by moving from one side of the plane to the other as I work my way down the board. Carter in Albuquerque, New(not Old) Mexico, who's current long running project is making baseboard molding which involves edge jointing 10ft pieces of 4/4 hard maple, then ripping them to width and edge jointing the other side. ---- Start of Message 128046 ---- From: sepost@i... (Scott Post) Date: 2004-01-22 17:55:48 Subject: Re: Jointer (trying) plane advice wanted; > Peter Monson wrote: > > Hello good galoots: I am considering buying a big plane (approx. 22-24" > in length), primarily for flattening large table tops, etc., and wanted > to get some of the collective wisdom of this group. (I have checked the > archives but didn't find much on point.) > I am wondering about the relative merits of a cast iron versus > wooden jointer/try planes. For example, how would a good quality > Stanley #7 or 8(type 11?? based on recent discussions), or Bed Rock > 607/608, compare to a wooden jointer/try plane either an older one > in good condition or a new wooden one, such as one of Steve Knight's? This is my personal opinion and everyone has their own preference so take it for what it's worth. I don't like Bailey pattern planes and don't use them anymore. They're too heavy to use for any length of time and the position of the front knob encourages one to rest the meaty part at the base of the thumb on the side of the plane which always leaves me with a blister. I don't like Krenov style planes because they're too short (in the height dimension) and I prefer a tote. I also think they're ugly, but that's in the eye of the beholder and everyone doesn't share my eyes. That leaves an old wooden jointer. As you surmised, they're easy to tune and maintain a flat sole. They're also light weight and glide across the wood nicer than a metal plane. They have hefty irons and solid bedding so they don't chatter. Best of all, they're cheap. I'd rather spend my money on hops based energy drinks than Lie Nielsen planes. Since this thread has taken a turn into jointing technique I'll give you another overvalued two cents. I had been doing it wrong for a long time. I had the cambered iron, but was just shifting the plane laterally rather than allowing the sole to remain in flat contact with the board. An illustration in Don's recent article in Popular Woodworking is what finally corrected me. I was successfully getting square edges, but keeping the sole planted on the edge speeds the process up. A criticism of the cambered iron method that will eventually come up is "I want my edges dead straight, not concave such as you'd get with a cambered iron". The thing to realize is just how small the camber is. It's not the radical horeshoe shape of a scrub plane iron - it's only a few thousandths of an inch. Unfortunately a measurement that small is about impossible to capture in a photograph and unless you have some machining experience you may not have a feel for what that number means. It's just enough to see some daylight when you hold a straight edge up to the cutting edge. One jointing technique I could never get to work is the "joint two boards at once to get complementary angles" method. The biggest hurdle is getting two boards clamped together so the edges line up reasonably well in the first place. Then, after a few swipes, I'd have to separate the boards and test them against one another. If the joint needed tuned (they always did) I'd then have to clamp them back together - at which time I didn't have a hope of realigning them well so was essentially starting over. If, by chance, I was able to get them jointed straight I'd have to wrestle to keep them in vertical alignment during glue up. Those complementary angles now worked as ramps to make the boards slide in relation to each other the moment clamp pressure was applied. That meant messing with cauls. -- Scott Post sepost@i... http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/ ---- Start of Message 128047 ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-01-22 14:56:38 Subject: Which Blyth? GGs- I recently picked up yet another molding plane (what? you need more?), a 1/2 inch side bead. Hey, it was a size I didn't have. This one is a nice Mathieson with a crescent and star logo. It is also marked "sold by Blyth central co-op society." You might have seen it go by on the 'bay - the seller only seems to have UK-made planes, despite being located here. There are three Blyths in the UK, according to MultiMap: Northumberland, Nottinghamshire, and Suffolk. Anyone have any idea as to which of those Blyths might be most, um, co-operative? The one in Northumberland is closest to Glasgow, but I suppose that means little. Anyone aware of the existence of such an origanization in one of the Blyths, please drop me a line. Just curious. In case anyone wants pictures, it's still here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3264680664 -Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 128048 ---- From: "Jim Esten" Date: 2004-01-22 16:57:42 Subject: RE: Transitional plane sizes In case anyone else needs this for posterity... - the width/height of the sole block: w: 3 1/16" h: 1 3/4" - the total height (from the bottom of the sole to the top of the tote): approx 6 1/4" Cheers, Jim in charming and moderately historic Cedarburg, WI USA (who loves transitionals....) -----Original Message----- From: Ralph Brendler [mailto:ralph@b...] Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 4:12 PM To: oldtools Subject: [oldtools] Transitional plane sizes I have a weird favor to ask of the assembled galoots... I need a couple of odd measurements for a Stanley #30 transitional jointer. In particular I need to know: - the width/height of the sole block - the total height (from the bottom of the sole to the top of the tote) I'm trying to figure some dimensions from a photograph of a toolbox, and my best point of reference is a #30. If somebody who has one of these can get these measurements for me, it'd be very helpful... Thanks! -- Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL - OTLM, ENB, FOYBIPO "Science works even if you don't believe in it..." - Penn Jillette ---- Start of Message 128049 ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-01-22 18:04:15 Subject: Re: Transitional plane sizes Hi Ralph I have two on hand: 1. Type 4 (prelateral) with a little wear but no resurfacing on the sole: Body 3" wide x 1 11/16" thick Sole to tip of tote 6" or just a little less (there is a little damage on the top of this tote) 2. A later type (?) c. 1910 with "V" logo on iron in near new condition: Body 3 1/8" wide x 1 23/32" thick. Sole to tip of (undamaged) tote 6". As I recall, somebody quite knowledgable (Smith/PTAMPIA perhaps) talks about some hand work being done even on mass produced planes such as these transitionals. In a typical batch operation there likely was some hand sanding, scraping or other finishing work. So, there could be some "normal" variation between models, or even within a given type. And of course, differences in wear would also produce some variation. Hope this helps. Chris On 1/22/04 5:12 PM, "Ralph Brendler" wrote: > I have a weird favor to ask of the assembled galoots... > > I need a couple of odd measurements for a Stanley #30 transitional > jointer. In particular I need to know: > > - the width/height of the sole block > - the total height (from the bottom of the sole to the top of the tote) > > I'm trying to figure some dimensions from a photograph of a toolbox, and > my best point of reference is a #30. If somebody who has one of these > can get these measurements for me, it'd be very helpful... > > Thanks! ---- Start of Message 128050 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-22 16:10:14 Subject: jointer (trying) plane advice I look at the technique of jointing both boards at once as belt and suspenders. I still aim for a square edge so there isn't any discernable "ramp" effect during glue up. But I use side pressure anyway when clamping so I don't lose thickness from slippage. ---- Start of Message 128051 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-01-22 18:28:08 Subject: Re: Bio Jon Pile wrote > Now, for the obligatory newbie question. I noticed a few of my > less-loved (read: cheap) tools have developed a slight skin condition > (read: surface rust). I share my workspace with a clothes dryer that > vents a little warm humidity inside, but this is NoCal in January; it's > damp no matter what. > Jon: You don't want that moisture in the house for several reasons. First is the amount of moisture - I don't care how damp it is in NCal, 15 poiunds of water out of a load of laundry is still a lot. Second is that the girl scouts make fire-starters out of dryer lint - it can be quite flammable. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 128052 ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-01-22 19:32:04 Subject: Re: reversing glue joints Jeff, Yes Jeff this is indeed true. In practice an easy way to do this is to soak paper towels in either water or vinegar solution and place them along the joint. cover with plastic wrap if the joint is stubborn and it needs to soak for a while. Ken Jeff Gorman wrote: >: -----Original Message----- >: From: Bill Rittner [mailto:wcrittner@c...] >: Sent: 22 January 2004 01:34 >: To: oldtools >: Subject: [oldtools] reversing glue joints >: >: >: I have begun working on my "new old workbench" and want to >: remove some parts >: that were added on over the years and are not original to the >: bench. They >: have been glued and nailed. I'm not sure what kind of glue >: was used. I'm >: thinking hide glue or plastic resin type glue. > >I gather that vinegar or acetic acid (careful when diluting the glacial >form) will soften Scotch (hide Murricans) glues. > >Jeff >-- >Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK >Email: amgron@c... >http://www.amgron.clara.net > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > ---- Start of Message 128053 ---- From: "Jeff Schmidt" Date: 2004-01-22 18:53:24 Subject: Forgotten Arts >Second, I was given "The Forgotten Arts." It is a 3 volume collection of >various skills that have been adapted to current techniques. The ones >that cought my eye were ladder making, basket weaving and rehandling >hand tools.... Richard M. Bacon sounds like an interesting >fellow. John Seymour is another author of a book titled _Forgotten Arts: A Practical Guide to Traditional Skills_. It is a wonderful book which introduces the reader to a wide variety of crafts. In addition, Mr. Seymour holds very strong opinions on the mass produced artifacts that surround us and is not afraid to articulate those thoughts. Refreshingly offensive to modern mass consumerism. The book is divided into Woodland Crafts, Building Crafts, Crafts of the Field, Workshop Crafts, Textiles and Homecrafts. For those of you that are similarly inclined to the homesteading lifestyle, his autobiographical _Fat of the Land_ is a must read. Jeff Schmidt Boaz, KY ---- Start of Message 128054 ---- From: traviswa@u... Date: 2004-01-22 17:51:05 Subject: RE: oaken well cover If no longer used, it may be worth filling it in w/ many loads of clean gravel. -Travis > Incidentally - I found the reputed well at our cottage in Suffolk under > the Iris bed. - The spade vanished, and I nearly went with it. . . seems > it went out of commission when mains water came to the village, had a > couple of boards placed over, and the flower bed atop that. > Lets just say(tm) that I left it with a concrete cover lurking under the > flower bed. > > > Richard ---- Start of Message 128055 ---- From: Dave Tardiff Date: 2004-01-22 21:10:17 Subject: Discolored maple? Remembering other tales of figured wood found at HD, I took a look tonight...and found that someone had nicely left a maple 1x6, 8' long, conveniently already sorted out from the bin, heavily laden with curly figure. Unfortunately it's also got some GREEN streaks meandering through the grain, much the same color as poplar often shows. I've never seen the green in maple before, though... Will this fade to brown in sunlight like the poplar does? Would a stain give a better result? I'm going to try the sunlight first, on a short cutoff, and see how it works and how deep the color change goes...if it's successful I'll make the intended picture frame and then expose it in the front door storm window, which gets lots of winter sun. ---- Start of Message 128056 ---- From: JPagona@a... Date: 2004-01-22 21:30:27 Subject: Re: Bio In a message dated 1/21/2004 10:18:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, matt_mulka@c... writes: >>That would help, just make sure you zap it every now and then to dry the silica out.<< Also make sure that none of your tools actually touch it. Silica that is saturated with moisture will quickly rust any steel touching it. DAMHIKT. I only use chunks of camphor now, and I'm much happier for it. David Sobel in humid Florida ---- Start of Message 128057 ---- From: JPagona@a... Date: 2004-01-22 22:02:36 Subject: travisher radius Galooteratti, I'm itching to try to make a travisher, but I don't have one on hand to use as a model. I'm not sure how large a curve to make on the blade. Can someone help me out? All I need is the length of the blade and the distance of the crown of the blade from a straight line drawn through the ends. The rest I can work out on my own. Thanks, David Sobel wondering when Wife is going to comment that I seem to spend all my time lately making tools, or making tools to make tools, or buying tools to make tools...and hardly any time anymore working on the house. ---- Start of Message 128058 ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-01-22 22:07:37 Subject: Re: reversing glue joints Anatol, There is a devise made by one of the luthier suppliers which is a little needle to inject steam into joints which are too deep to otherwise loosen with moisture like the guitar neck to body joint. Ken Anatol Polillo wrote: > At 07:32 PM 1/22/04 -0500, you wrote: > >> Jeff, >> Yes Jeff this is indeed true. In practice an easy way to do this is >> to soak paper towels in either water or vinegar solution and place >> them along the joint. cover with plastic wrap if the joint is >> stubborn and it needs to soak for a while. >> Ken > > > > Another option is to steam the joint. I have used a wallpaper remover > for this and it works quite well. Just make sure you don't burn > yourself. > > Anatol > > > Now accepting credit cards via PayPal > "Classic Plane Making" and more at: > > http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2nwp6/planes/hollow.ht > ---- Start of Message 128059 ---- From: Darrell & Kathy Date: 2004-01-22 22:07:21 Subject: gunstock scraper Galoots, especially Brian I was at Konrad Sauer's place last week for a Hands-On session on infill planes (Halton furniture makers society event). Konrad showed us the scraper Brian Buckner had sent him. Very cool. I took a few quick measurements and drew a rather imprecise sketch on a scrap of paper, thinking "hey, this looks pretty high on the useful/gizmo scale and fairly quick to make". In between gluing up a couple of coopered panels (yes, another sleighbed!) I set about building this scraper. So far so good but I have some questions... How is the escapement shaped (didn't look at that when I made my sketch)? I've cut the sides down along a curve to the sole. Hope this supports the cutter OK. Is the mouth block (filed mine out of some scrap bronze) relieved at all on the sole, or should be square to the iron? I think I should file a bit of an angle on the sole. Is that right? Mine kind of works, sort of, but not nearly as nicely as Konrad's. http://www3.sympatico.ca/larchmont/scraper_block.jpg http://www3.sympatico.ca/larchmont/scraper.jpg -- Darrell Oakville ON Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User ---- Start of Message 128060 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-01-22 22:16:38 Subject: Re: Jointer (trying) plane advice wanted; > That leaves an old wooden jointer. As you surmised, they're easy > to tune and maintain a flat sole. They're also light weight and > glide across the wood nicer than a metal plane. They have hefty I really want to get a long wooden jointer, if only because they're so cool-looking :-) I haven't found anything locally that would have served from more than firewood and I'm always apprehensive about buying one from eBay as I'm not sure how to assess how well the blade is seated and whether it's warped. What should I look for in photos that suggest that the plane could be put into working condition? > one another. If the joint needed tuned (they always did) I'd > then have to clamp them back together - at which time I didn't > have a hope of realigning them well so was essentially starting I'm not the best woodworker but I've managed to do this a number of times. I might be doing it 'all wrong' but what I do is clamp the two boards together and then draw a line across both ends, an inch or so below the planing edge. In this way, I can test the joints, flop the boards back into place and by lining up those lines, I'm back to the starting orientation. Seems to work. > up. Those complementary angles now worked as ramps to make the > boards slide in relation to each other the moment clamp pressure When I do this I still try to joint them flat (perpendicular to the face). To me the big advantage is that I've got twice as much surface supporting the plane. Helps with that muscle memory people talk about :-) -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 128061 ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-01-22 22:52:44 Subject: What is WITH THIS SLOPE? It used to be just planes. Now I'm looking at saws, braces, bits, and misc. stuff. I don't even have time to learn how to *make* anything with all of this. Fun though. ---- Start of Message 128062 ---- From: "Peter McBride" Date: 2004-01-23 15:35:43 Subject: RE: replacing broke pin on mortising guage GG's Alan says http://arwomack01.home.att.net/images/brokepin.jpg Allan, that looks like the end of a Stanley #77, is it?? I think the end will have to come off to do any work on the pin using heat. The last 3 #77's I had all needed the threaded sliding brass section repaired. The brass threads are stripped out by over tightening the thumb screw on the fence and then trying to adjust the pins. There are 2 brass pins securing the rosewood sides to the brass end piece, I drift them out with a brass drift I made a fraction smaller, then you can slide the brass section out and work on it. You must back up the rosewood over a hole just big enough for the brass pin to pass through, or else the pin can break out the wood as you hammer away. I didn't need to replace the pins on any of this type so didn't inspect closely how the pins are held in whist they were in bits. The brass pins go through in line with the steel pins on mine...so they cannot be deep into the brass...about 3mm maximum. They look like a press fit in the brass. Small dental drills (down to 0.4mm), and burrs get those out easily where I sit. I replace them with suitably softened and then hardened steel pin wire, shaped by file in a pin-vice. Then pressed into the brass end piece between the brass jaws of the small bench vice. (with a drilled spacer to protect the opposite side pin) The types like Disston and others with brass inserts screwed down are a breeze. They take about 3 - 5 minutes to do, and I have done more than 12 of that type. On those I tap the pins in from the back. I must say a jewellers workbench is the PREMIUM place to do these little brass and steel repairs to tools, and they provide me with an occasional welcome distraction. Regards, Peter. In Melbourne, Aust where he took a novice out fly fishing yesterday, the novice got 2 and I got none...very sad. ---- Start of Message 128063 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-01-23 08:29:27 Subject: RE: Jointer (trying) plane advice wanted; : -----Original Message----- : From: Scott Post [mailto:sepost@i...] : Sent: 22 January 2004 22:56 : To: oldtools : Subject: Re:[oldtools] Jointer (trying) plane advice wanted; : That leaves an old wooden jointer. As you surmised, they're : easy to tune : and maintain a flat sole. They're also light weight and : glide across the : wood nicer than a metal plane. They have hefty irons and : solid bedding : so they don't chatter. Best of all, they're cheap. I'd rather spend : my money on hops based energy drinks than Lie Nielsen planes. Extrapolating (always a risky thing?) from experience with a wooden jack, I find that 'excess' wedge pressure can cause the sole to become concave lengthwise. I write 'excess' because there's no sure way of knowing that one has achieved a standard condition for the wedge/iron/cap iron system. Not wishing to invite Scott to damage his plane(s), I wonder whether the same thing applies to the longer and stouter trying planes. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 128064 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-01-23 08:29:28 Subject: RE: oak staining & shellac : -----Original Message----- : From: Ken Pendergrass [mailto:kenp794@c...] : Sent: 22 January 2004 12:19 : To: oldtools : Cc: oldtools : Subject: Re: [oldtools] oak staining & shellac : We had an incident in the violin shop with ammonia. One of : the guys is a : wonderful man and a great builder. He's fluent in Russian, Armenian, : Italian, pig latin just not English. He was looking for : something in the : solvent cabinet and as he couldn't read the label he opened a jar and : took a sniff. Well it was ammonia the laboratory grade not the house : hold concentration. He had to sit down! It was a while before : we could : determine what was wrong. Some time ago I read (perhaps within these hallowed pages) that the tip is to sniff the stopper or lid. Presumably this limits the amount inhaled. (Indeed applying such a technique means that the worker is already on his/her guard). Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 128065 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-23 09:10:02 Subject: Design questions - was -Re: [oldtools] Bio - Marcus Sly, and 'hello' Paul (bugbear) must have been trolling when he said .. >>Neat joinery - although did is *really* need to be quite that strong=3F In response to our latest Yorkshire dwelling denizen's bio. . And now opens a second front with. .. >You have to choose your examples with some discretion though. >For exmaple Macintosh chairs are very weak and uncomfortable; >more a chair shaped sculpture than a chair IMHO. So as I'm awake before the more easterly porchsters I rise to the bait like a trout to a fly. . . "OK Paul - how do you know how strong a Mackintosh chair is=3F Putting aside comfortable, which is separate from strong. The 'classic' Sheraton or Hepplewhite chair is seriously flawed structurally, as we know, for its reliance on the joint between seat and back. Mr M, however, typically uses underframing on his chairs, which adds enormously to its ability to resist racking etc. As to comfort - I assume you're thinking of the cafe chairs designs for which he's most known - and of course, if you're a cafe owner, (not restaurant owner, note) you want a chair which suggests ' time to go' after 15 minutes or so - or whatever time a Glaswegian needs for a cup of tea and Aberdeen buttery. The sculptural quality is a triumph though. of function and form - for again, within the requirements of the commissioner, the high back creates a false air of 'intimacy' around the tea shop table which is good for business whilst not unduly obstructive to service - though I'll bet not a few of the serving wenches cursed them. Fit to purpose I'd say. So, come on Eric - how comfortable and strong *is* that chair - and our chappie at Keighley who was making the 'ladderback' version - still here - any input=3F and finally, back to the original question about designing for strength - There are sources for timber strengths - which show physical strengths for oak versus poplar versus yellow pine etc. This is modified by the timber grade - free of knots, straight grain etc. for demanding situations such as roof trusses and aircraft, the timber is certified piece by piece. Back in the real world though, and apart from the folklore about beech, fruitwoods, oak being stronger than softwood and pitch pine, yellow pine lodgepole pine being stronger than instant grown Baltic supermarket timber, it is largely the choice and execution of joints which are fundamental to the strength of a piece. As Paul says - observing is key - if we spent 500 years to decide that a Windsor chair needs 1" spindles in beech jointing to a 1 1/2 inch leg - then that's good enough for me. When we turned to mahogany, and jointing became better, we developed ever finer furniture, to the point where fashionable designers like Hepplewhite made flimsy stuff that was for looks. (and did a good job of it) You may care to get hold of Ernest Joyce's 'Techniques of Furniture Making' which contains both an excellent overall appreciation of tools and jointing, as well as a section on design and suchlike. Well illustrated too! Have fun Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 128066 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-23 09:20:29 Subject: Re: oaken well cover - the final answer. . . Jim provides the best, the ultimate, the only possible answer. . . . >Well, nobody will ever unlock it, but operating a padlock through such a barred >window does sound like a test of nerves: pushing one's naked hands through >a barricade of cobwebs and into the dank, dark, (inhabited) space concealed.... >Some runes carved into the top would heighten the drama. Yes Yes - carved runes around a barred grating. *This* *is* the wonder of this place.. - and my recommendation will be to fill the bottom 26 feet of waterladen column, and leave the wooden, windowed, rune carved, locked lid as a dire warning to onlookers.... -Just what the client should have for his kids (i.e. made safe) and decorative, and I need more carving chisels, and some carving skills. . Thanks chaps, and chappesses. Richard Wilson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 128067 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-23 09:54:46 Subject: Re: Cutting Wooden Threads Mike Rock wrote: > > The cutter I copied for the wood screws on the small lathe was ground > from a standard tool blank, 3/8" sq. A 60 degree notch was ground from > top to almost bottom, an inch into the cutter. Then the outside was > ground to within a smidgen of the outside at the front, tapering thicker > rearword. Heck, it is the same as a veining tool!!!!!!! Hold that in a > toolholder and have at it, taking multiple cuts, not all at once. Given the task, I assume you used one of these, thus making the process wonderfully on-topic for the Porch, with nary an electron having to die :-) http://www.thetoolbox.org.uk/images/Myford_spindle_handle.jpg (it's a handle that fits on the main shaft of a metawork lathe, allow manual driving. Very useful for coarse threads) BugBear ---- Start of Message 128068 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-23 10:23:11 Subject: Re: Which Blyth? Ken asked about Blyth. . . . >a nice Mathieson with a crescent and star logo. It is also >marked "sold by Blyth central co-op society." >three Blyths in the UK, according to MultiMap: >Northumberland, Nottinghamshire, and Suffolk. Anyone have any >idea as to which of those Blyths might be most Alice maybe wouldn't know (being from the deepest South) but for us Northerners it's obvious.. Co-Ops were essentially a Northern invention, from the days of bad employers and 'trouble dahn at t' mill' Blyth is (was) a mining town on the Northumberland coast, now most famous locally for its power station, where my BIL did his apprenticeship. It became a town that died after Mrs Thatcher (mutual appreciation society member with President Reagan.) maliciously destroyed the mining industry, and with it many communities where comradeship and neighbourliness were valued above welcoming outsiders, and the macho miners were the head and oppressors of their households. Anyway - this is the kind of place that had a Co-Op, and IIRC - and I may well be spouting from the wrong orifice again - it may be Blyth Co-Op which was removed in its entirety to Beamish Museum, and rebuilt, with period contents, a bandstand outside and a regular tramcar service to the car park. A search on Beamish should discover the truth of this. If so, then perhaps they'd have an interest in Ken's find. Short answer Ken - Northumberland. Richard Wilson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 128069 ---- From: pedger66@j... Date: 2004-01-23 06:07:14 Subject: Re: oak staining and shellac Galoots, Ken P. reports on an incident with someone sniffing ammonia. As a kid I acquired a small bottle of the same type of high concentration ammonia for a science project. It was a clear liquid instead of cloudy like my Mom's household ammonia and I was a doubter. I sniffed it. After exclaiming (at least), coughing, gasping, snorting, and moaning as my father laughed uproariously, I resolved to never make THAT mistake again. Days later, the plumber and his helper came to the house. We later heard exclamations (!) from the back of the house followed by coughing, gasping, snorting and moaning and the plumber laughing uproariously at his helper who stood there with the bottle in his hand and tears streaming down his face. He also became a believer. Phil E. ---- Start of Message 128070 ---- From: "A Frampton" Date: 2004-01-23 11:32:12 Subject: RE: oak staining & shellac Mr Gorman (Jeff, Paddy) wrote: >Some time ago I read (perhaps within these hallowed pages) that the tip >is to sniff the stopper or lid. Presumably this limits the amount >inhaled. (Indeed applying such a technique means that the worker is >already on his/her guard). That rings a bell with me too. I understood it was so that should the fumes knock you out, you wouldn't then drop the container-full of the noxious stuff. On which basis it's not much good standing with the jar in one hand while you sniff the stopper with the other I suppose... Cheers, Alf Who's done just that in Cornwall, GB, but luckily it didn't end in disaster. _________________________________________________________________ Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you. http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess ---- Start of Message 128071 ---- From: pedger66@j... Date: 2004-01-23 06:34:47 Subject: Re: Jointer (trying) plane advice wanted Galoots, Peter M. asked for comparisons among long planes. This is my 10 cents (2 cents adjusted for inflation) worth. I haven't had good experiences with long transitional planes. I had Bedrock 607 and 608 in my arsenal but using them for extended periods wore out my arms and back. I sold them and went back to No. 7 and No. 8 (Awww, c'mon, Jeff. You know what they are by now). And they do very well when tuned. I don't see the utility of extra heft in this application. Phil E. ---- Start of Message 128072 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-23 06:52:20 Subject: Re: What is WITH THIS SLOPE? Michael writes : > It used to be just planes. Now I'm looking at saws, braces, > bits, and misc. stuff. I don't even have time to learn how > to *make* anything with all of this. You're on the right path. Once you've spent a few years acquiring every tool you'll ever need, then another few getting them all tuned and sharpened, :then: you can get back to making things. Paul (who's almost finished his new sharpening bench) Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 128073 ---- From: pedger66@j... Date: 2004-01-23 07:01:15 Subject: Re: edge jointing boards Galoots, I've mentioned that I knock the big pieces of my projects off with electron beams, but I've never had a tailed jointer. So I've done a goodly amount of jointing with planes. Ya know, I just can't get myself to sharpen my plane blades to anything but a straight bevel. The Scary Sharp (tm) method with a rolling guide works so well and quickly for me that that's all I do. For jointing I just use the "lean the plane over and hack at the high side" method. I just can't get into all the fiddley methods of "adjusting this, grinding that, holding my body in a yoga-like position to do the other". I just go at it until it's right. ("I'm just a laborer, boss, I don't know nuffin' 'bout machinery," he said, when told to use a wheelbarrow.) One trick I do use, though, is I keep every other of my planes set rank or fine. For example, the No. 7 is set rank and the No. 8 is set fine. That way I can grab one close to the size, blade extension, and mouth opening I need without having to adjust anything. Sort of like the "brace for every bit" idea. This is also the way I justify having so many planes. "Hello, I'm Phil and I have a plane problem. I don't have enough of them yet." Phil E. ---- Start of Message 128074 ---- From: pedger66@j... Date: 2004-01-23 07:31:06 Subject: nightmare on *bay street Galoots, I recently wrote of a just plain plane nightmare I was involved in re: a totally screwed up 605 I got off the Bay. I want to follow up that G____ refunded all my money including the postage to me and postage for the POS plane back to him. Restores my faith that there still are people out there who will do the right thing. So the nightmare ended and I awoke to a beautiful new day! I've had pretty good experiences on that venue for the most part. Most folks seem to want both sides to be happy with the sale. Phil E. ---- Start of Message 128075 ---- From: "Karl W. Sanger" Date: 2004-01-23 07:45:11 Subject: Casting Sand? Galoots, I've never experienced a Stanley tool which exited the factory with casting sand still in the parts. But, about an item, I just read: "It is a rare find and I didn't want to chance damage to any of its parts. It has not been reworked or repaired. There is still casting sand stuck to the bottom of the chute board from its manufacture!" Has anyone else seen such a poorly prepared and machined Stanley tool? If so, I guess I've got to start looking harder. *********************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * (Email: sangerkw@m...) * * in the Nature Coast area, Florida * *********************************************** ---- Start of Message 128076 ---- From: garrison@g... Date: 2004-01-23 07:55:59 Subject: Rust/Rust Prevention Info Found this, it was related to some recent questions and thought it might be helpful. http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/rust/rust.html Scott Garrison Duluth GA ---- Start of Message 128077 ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-01-23 08:18:13 Subject: Re: gunstock scraper Darrell, If you can get your hands on a copy of June '97, Woodwork you will find a great how to with very good drawing. Ken Darrell & Kathy wrote: >Galoots, especially Brian > >I was at Konrad Sauer's place last week for a Hands-On session >on infill planes (Halton furniture makers society event). >Konrad showed us the scraper Brian Buckner had sent him. >Very cool. I took a few quick measurements and drew a rather >imprecise sketch on a scrap of paper, thinking "hey, this looks >pretty high on the useful/gizmo scale and fairly quick to make". > >In between gluing up a couple of coopered panels (yes, another >sleighbed!) I set about building this scraper. So far so good >but I have some questions... > >How is the escapement shaped (didn't look at that when I made >my sketch)? I've cut the sides down along a curve to the >sole. Hope this supports the cutter OK. > >Is the mouth block (filed mine out of some scrap bronze) >relieved at all on the sole, or should be square to the >iron? I think I should file a bit of an angle on the sole. >Is that right? Mine kind of works, sort of, but not nearly as >nicely as Konrad's. > >http://www3.sympatico.ca/larchmont/scraper_block.jpg > >http://www3.sympatico.ca/larchmont/scraper.jpg > > > ---- Start of Message 128078 ---- From: vladimir spehar Date: 2004-01-23 08:20:58 Subject: Is it safe to assume... that all chisels made in Eskiltuna Sweden are EA Berg? I know of no other Swedish manufacturer other than Berg. The reason I ask, is I have some Eskiltuna Beaver (I assume made for the Canadian market) chisels that look like the real deal minus the EA Berg branding. Do we have a Swedish member here? Thank you in advance and keep warm. Vlad ===== Cheers. Vladimir (Vlad) Spehar Spehar ToolWorks. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ---- Start of Message 128079 ---- From: Bill Webber Date: 2004-01-23 08:27:18 Subject: Re: travisher radius Hi David et al, I'd like to try this also. Where will you get the blade or will you make your own? In the past I have inquired of some of the spokeshave blade makers but all I've gotten is a "perhaps in the future..." Regards, JPagona@a... wrote: > Galooteratti, > > I'm itching to try to make a travisher, but I don't have one on hand > to use as a model. I'm not sure how large a curve to make on the > blade. Can someone help me out? All I need is the length of the blade > and the distance of the crown of the blade from a straight line drawn > through the ends. The rest I can work out on my own. > > Thanks, > > David Sobel wondering when Wife is going to comment that I seem to > spend all my time lately making tools, or making tools to make tools, > or buying tools to make tools...and hardly any time anymore working on > the house. > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To > unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools -- Bill W. Woodworkers visit me at: http://Highland_House.tripod.com ---- Start of Message 128080 ---- From: "CheekyGeek" Date: 2004-01-23 05:41:37 Subject: Re: What is WITH THIS SLOPE? Yep, I can vouch for those sentiments. There are many paths down the slippery slope. When I tripped over the Porch in late '95, I had no idea that there were wackos in the world who used tools that required no tails or r*ch*rg*ble b*tt*ry p*cks. But I was instantly intrigued by learning the ways of generations of craftsmen that had come before me and soon found myself picking up a few oldtools (something I had never even noticed existed in the universe before). Life takes its twists and turns and there may be periods when, like me, woodworking itself exists only in the theoretical. But I'm finally at the point where I have a decent place to work and, like many, now try to grab some snippets of time (some longer than others) learning to tune and actually use the tools. I wonder if this group realizes how influential it has been over the last 10 years or so? We now see a real resurgence in oldtool/handtool articles in the popular woodworking magazines of today (many featuring the work of Porch denizens). Book titles on the subjects are becoming increasingly common. There is even increased interest in the production of hand tools by concerns large and small. We don't really hear the term "neanderthal" used that much anymore as now the general concensus seems to be that respect for handtool proficiency is soaring. Certainly, the tool collecting associations probably began this trend. But I think it is the Galoots that we have to thank for putting the real USE of those tools back on the front burner. In any event, I think the porch has been instrumental in speading the word beyond the big city groups to individuals, wherever they may live, throughout the world. Darren Addy Kearney, Nebraska ---- Start of Message 128081 ---- From: "Michael McCarthy" Date: 2004-01-23 13:42:21 Subject: Re: travisher radius Michael McCarthy Mechanick http://www.hammerinhand.com >From: Bill Webber I'd like to try this also. Where will you get the blade >or will you make your >own? In the past I have inquired of some of the spokeshave blade makers >but all >I've gotten is a "perhaps in the future..." If there is enough interest, I would be willing to make up a run of travisher blades. These could either be welded steel on WI or solid steel. I am open to heat treating them, or passing them along to others to do so. Anyone out there want to put together a run of travishers? _________________________________________________________________ Find high-speed ‘net deals — comparison-shop your local providers here. https://broadband.msn.com ---- Start of Message 128082 ---- From: garrison@g... Date: 2004-01-23 08:46:39 Subject: Re: Is it safe to assume... Vlad said: > that all chisels made in Eskiltuna Sweden are EA Berg? > I know of no other Swedish manufacturer other than > Berg. The reason I ask, is I have some Eskiltuna > Beaver (I assume made for the Canadian market) chisels > that look like the real deal minus the EA Berg > branding. Do we have a Swedish member here? I too bought these same chisels. On mine the stamping of SWEDEN is much deeper than I have ever seen with Berg. Also I know that Eskilstuna became the rival of Sheffield, England, and Solingen, Germany, in the production of cutlery and other steels. Though I am not a Swede so I have no actual knowledge I believe that Eskilstuna had more manufacturers of chisels than just Berg. A listing of these manufacturers would be desirable if any one has access. thanks Scott Garrison Duluth GA > Vlad > > ===== > > Cheers. > > Vladimir (Vlad) Spehar > > Spehar ToolWorks. > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 128083 ---- From: vladimir spehar Date: 2004-01-23 09:02:47 Subject: Re: Is it safe to assume... Hi Scott, I looked up a history of knifemakers in Sweden and Berg was the only knife and hand tools manufacturer. All the rest were just knifemakers. Did you buy your chisels in Canada? I thought these were made for CDN market because the Beaver is our national animal/rodent but perhaps they weren't. Vlad --- garrison@g... wrote: > Vlad said: > > > that all chisels made in Eskiltuna Sweden are EA > Berg? > > I know of no other Swedish manufacturer other > than > > Berg. The reason I ask, is I have some Eskiltuna > > Beaver (I assume made for the Canadian market) > chisels > > that look like the real deal minus the EA Berg > > branding. Do we have a Swedish member here? > > > I too bought these same chisels. On mine the > stamping of SWEDEN is much deeper > than I have ever seen with Berg. Also I know that > Eskilstuna became the rival > of Sheffield, England, and Solingen, Germany, in the > production of cutlery and > other steels. Though I am not a Swede so I have no > actual knowledge I believe > that Eskilstuna had more manufacturers of chisels > than just Berg. A listing of > these manufacturers would be desirable if any one > has access. > > thanks > Scott Garrison > Duluth GA > > > > Vlad > > > > ===== > > > > Cheers. > > > > Vladimir (Vlad) Spehar > > > > Spehar ToolWorks. > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > > > Archive: > http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web > interface: > > > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > > > > Archive: > http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web > interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ===== Cheers. Vladimir (Vlad) Spehar Spehar ToolWorks. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ---- Start of Message 128084 ---- From: "Jim Esten" Date: 2004-01-23 08:10:36 Subject: RE: What is WITH THIS SLOPE? Ah Michael, it's even worse than that...instead of making "things", we find ourselves making more tools! And I know I'm not the only one!!! Cheers, Jim E #2 in Wisconsin (Charming and moderately historic Cedarburg) -----Original Message----- From: Michael campbell [mailto:michael_s_campbell@y...] Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 9:53 PM To: oldtools Subject: [oldtools] What is WITH THIS SLOPE? It used to be just planes. Now I'm looking at saws, braces, bits, and misc. stuff. I don't even have time to learn how to *make* anything with all of this. Fun though. ---- Start of Message 128085 ---- From: Ed Fisher Date: 2004-01-23 09:11:48 Subject: Re: travisher radius Drew Langsner sells a shallow radiused blade for 28.25 plus. www.countryworkshops.org and surf... ed Michael McCarthy wrote: > Michael McCarthy > Mechanick > http://www.hammerinhand.com > > > > >From: Bill Webber I'd like to try this also. Where will you get the blade > >or will you make your > >own? In the past I have inquired of some of the spokeshave blade makers > >but all > >I've gotten is a "perhaps in the future..." > > If there is enough interest, I would be willing to make up a run of > travisher blades. These could either be welded steel on WI or solid steel. > I am open to heat treating them, or passing them along to others to do so. > Anyone out there want to put together a run of travishers? > > _________________________________________________________________ > Find high-speed ‘net deals — comparison-shop your local providers here. > https://broadband.msn.com > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 128086 ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-01-23 08:16:12 Subject: Re: Is it safe to assume... Hi Vlad, Well, this is Bergmadman responding here ....... WHat can I tell you? All Eskilstuna steel mfrs used the same handle source. Berg made the 160/161 chisels for Stanley. They made GENSCO ...they became and made BAHCO. There are many many chisels that are almost identical including ones marketed as Danish manufacture / Swedish steel that look identical. There are lots of knock-offs that were made for hardware store lines (e.g. Seel Hdw.) that I don't know about. Soooooooo, my answer is ... maybe. The earlier Berg stuff is unmistakable in terms of quality ... the finish of the steel and the grade of birch root used in the handles is unexcelled IMHO. Later, when QC started to slip (Erik had died and his daughters had taken over.... just Hx here, no gender bias implied at all) all kinds of stuff started to happen. I could write a book (many have urged me to do so ....SOME day perhaps). I collect boxes and paper. I've linked many of the sales / mergers/ products (including of course Sanvik who ended up with the whole of Swedish tool manufacturing for all practical purposes). I just haven't gotten a paper trail linking Beaver. Oh yeah, I have one example of a Hudson Bay Hardware chisel that also smells of EA Berg manufacture. Anyone have ANY paper on Swedish tools out there? I'd love to add stuff to my archives for the book that I plan to write eventually Cheers Tom On Jan 23, 2004, at 7:20 AM, vladimir spehar wrote: > that all chisels made in Eskiltuna Sweden are EA Berg? ---- Start of Message 128087 ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-01-23 06:30:16 Subject: Re: What is WITH THIS SLOPE? CheekyGeek wrote: > Life takes its twists and turns and there may be periods when, like me, > woodworking itself exists only in the theoretical. I couldn't have expressed this any better; this is precisely where I am at the moment. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128088 ---- From: "CheekyGeek" Date: 2004-01-23 06:55:05 Subject: re: Travisher blade A google cached page for Windsor Chair Resources recommends "Ray Larson" for making travisher blades. No idea as to his prices. His page is here and his email address is also on that page: http://www.windsorchairresources.com/larsen.html Darren Addy Kearney, Nebraska ---- Start of Message 128089 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-23 08:12:23 Subject: RE: oak staining & shellac As a former chemist I seem to recall that the recommended practice for sniffing the contents of a container was not to do it, but if you must, then open the container and use your hand to waft the fumes toward your nose from a distance of a couple feet, moving closer as needs be until you detect the smell. But sniffing the cap offers the opportunity to deliver a quip about vintage and such. Blake ---- Start of Message 128090 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-23 08:13:20 Subject: Re: oaken well cover - the final answer. . . As long as you are going for runes, you might as well fill it with bones. And old tools. Blake ---- Start of Message 128091 ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-01-23 07:32:12 Subject: Yankee 75 push brace jaws Galoots, A week or so ago there was a question about the jaws of the Yankee No 75 push brace. I finally tooks some pictures and put them on the Galoot Image Central: http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=311 The Yankee 75 jaws have a "sawtooth" profile and a small spring at the back that fits into the recess on the brace that the jaws fit into. I also show the jaws for a Yankee 2100, which have a different shape and different spring, jaws for "G" style Stanley, which are similar to the Yankee 2100 but with yet another spring type connecting them, jaws for a common Millers-Falls-style Barber-style chuck, and the jaws from a Yankee breast drill with two jaws, which are longer than the No75 jaws and have no spring. I hope this may be of help to anyone curious about No 75 Yankee push braces and their jaws. ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128092 ---- From: "Ed O'Riordan" Date: 2004-01-23 10:36:22 Subject: RE: Travisher blade I went and visited him and bought a scorp and a travisher blade from him a while back (he is pretty local for me). As I recall the travisher blade was $20 or so. Ed O' -----Original Message----- From: CheekyGeek [mailto:cheekygeek@w...] A google cached page for Windsor Chair Resources recommends "Ray Larson" for making travisher blades. No idea as to his prices. His page is here and his email address is also on that page: http://www.windsorchairresources.com/larsen.html ---- Start of Message 128093 ---- From: "Gary Katsanis" Date: 2004-01-23 11:19:38 Subject: Jointing Technique (was Jointer (trying) plane advice wanted) I've run a couple of finishing nails through the two boards (pre drilling first). They're not hard to separate, and the nails act like mini alignment pins. I have a little hole to deal with later, but sometimes I can cut that part off, and even if I can't it isn't too hard to deal with a 3d nail hole. Gary K (too) Close to Buffalo NY where we've gotten dumped-on since that spectacular 70 degree thaw we had earlier - I love lake effect, I love lake effect, I love lake effect, I - aw, who am I trying to fool . . . ----- Original Message ----- --snip, snip-- > > one another. If the joint needed tuned (they always did) I'd > > then have to clamp them back together - at which time I didn't > > have a hope of realigning them well so was essentially starting --snip, snip-- > times. I might be doing it 'all wrong' but what I do is clamp the > two boards together and then draw a line across both ends, an inch > or so below the planing edge. In this way, I can test the joints, > flop the boards back into place and by lining up those lines, I'm --snip, snip-- ---- Start of Message 128094 ---- From: Chuck Taylor Date: 2004-01-23 08:51:06 Subject: Re: Casting Sand? / Stanley quality problems GAlootish Gentlefolk, Karl W. Sanger wrote about > ... a Stanley tool which exited > the factory with casting sand still in the parts. ... > Has anyone else seen such a poorly prepared and > machined Stanley tool? I have a "Made in USA" Stanley smoothing plane (#4, Paddy) that I purchased new in about 1975. It's the kind with the blue paint and black hardwood tote and knob. There was no casting sand in the parts, and those parts that were machined (the sole and sides of the body) were machined reasonably well. The problem is that surfaces that should have been machined were not machined at all. There are no machined surfaces on the frog, nor on the top of the receiver where the frog beds, nor on the inside of the mouth. They were all just rough-cast and painted. Chuck Taylor in Everett, WA, who is looking forward to the PNTC meeting Saturday __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ---- Start of Message 128095 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-23 17:02:00 Subject: Re: Casting Sand? / Stanley quality problems Karl quoted a (presumably) sales blurb which trumpeted. . . > There is still casting sand stuck to the >bottom of the chute board from its manufacture!" Whilst not impossible, it may be that the seller is mistaking the roughness of a painted sand casting for the roughness of painted sand. Sand is tamped down to form the moulds of course, and has to be pretty resilient to resist molten iron flowing around it, so it is conceivable that it would remain in corners and crevices. Me=3F - I'd like to examine the grains before agreeing.. Richard the sceptical Yorkshireman. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 128096 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-23 10:05:31 Subject: Accckkk! How could this happen? I have been building a weather resistant bulletin board to hang on the outside of a building. It's made of cypress and closes up when it rains (if it ever does here in Tucson). It came time to glue in the sheets of cork. I first glued in a layer of cork tiles. Then I cut a single piece of thin sheet cork (1/8 inch thick) to glue over the thicker tiles. I spread the glue (titebond) over the cork tiles and laid the cork sheet on top of it. I then started grabbing handy heavy things to place on top of the cork sheet to press it down flat. The closest flat, heavy things were metal planes so I grabbed several of them and lined them up on the cork. I smiled, briskly brushed the dust off my hands, and called it a day. The next morning, I lifted off the first plane, a corrugated #7, and was surprised to see dark stains on the cork in the form of corrugations. My first thought was that I had somehow contaminated the project with gunk from the Yankee 1005 I had recently taken apart in the vicinity. Then I looked at the bottom of the plane. AAAAHHHHH!!!!! It was covered with rust! Thick orange rust. I began picking up the other planes. AAAAHHHHH! Each one was covered with rust so thick that when I scraped it off with a razor blade, it made a little pile. How could this happen? I'm sure the moisture from the glue wicked through the cork, but how could it cause such an extreme reaction? Some chemical in the cork? ---- Start of Message 128097 ---- From: Marvin Paisner Date: 2004-01-23 09:10:11 Subject: Re: Is it safe to assume... Vlad & Galoots, "Jernbolaget, Eskilstuna, Sweden" was another maker of quality chisels, not connected to Berg as far as I know. Marvin Paisner Kootenay Lake, BC vladimir spehar wrote: > > that all chisels made in Eskiltuna Sweden are EA Berg? > I know of no other Swedish manufacturer ---- Start of Message 128098 ---- From: Roger Date: 2004-01-23 11:11:27 Subject: Re: Discolored maple? Dave Tardiff wrote: >Remembering other tales of figured wood found at HD, >I took a look tonight...and found that someone had >nicely left a maple 1x6, 8' long, conveniently already >sorted out from the bin, heavily laden with curly figure. >Unfortunately it's also got some GREEN streaks meandering >through the grain, much the same color as poplar often shows. >I've never seen the green in maple before, though... > > David this is commonly called mineral streaking. It is caused by a wound to the tree that allows water and air into the trunk. This can cause chemical changes from the tree A. fighting off the infection, and B. oxidation and other chemical changes in the waste products sequestered in the wood (usually the heartwood). As long as the wood is not punky (i.e. bacterial and fungal growth initiated) this should not seriously affect the strength of the wood. Most of this info comes from "A photo guide to the patterns of discoloration and decay in living northern hardwood trees" by Alex Shigo and Edwin Larson U.S.D.A Forest Service Research Paper NE-127 1969. Fellow Galoot Will Underwood salvaged it from the dumpster when some retired wildlife or forestry professor retired (yes, Will I will bring it back to you now). Will and I just cut up (granberg alaskan mill) a large red maple a few weeks ago that was almost solid green, black, red, yellow, white, and orange inside. The wood was still solid so it was not the result of spalting (discoloration due to bacteria and fungus, though there was some spalting at the base where the tree had split). All this was caused by where a big limb broke off the trunk about 25 feet up. It was full of water and that is what caused the streaking. I think it looks pretty cool, but I am not sure if it will darken to a nice brown with time or not. No mention is made in the publication except to say that it is considered a defect by lumber mills and the wood is therefore cheaper. So what to do with ~800 b.f. of mineral streaked maple? Benchtops! Roger in Alabama ---- Start of Message 128099 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-23 10:15:38 Subject: Re: Casting Sand? / Stanley quality problems Would sandblasting by a "restorer" lodge sand in crevices and if so how hard would it be to tell it from casting sand? ---- Start of Message 128100 ---- From: "Rodgers Charles" Date: 2004-01-23 12:25:09 Subject: RE: edge jointing boards Terry wrote: > I shared Dan's confusion about Ed's technique, but I think I've > got it clear now. Correct me if I'm wrong. > Ed planes down the middle of the edge. The sole of the plane is > in full contact with the edge. It's not parallel to the desired > flat line. By using the lateral lever, so that the blade takes > more wood off the high side than the low side, he planes down the > surface of the edge. Snip This is how I do it, and I thought that was the reason for the lateral adjuster (?) If not, then why did Stanley put it there? I also use a 2" machinist's square to check progress and when I'm real close, I square up the blade and just hit the high spots. When I think I'm there, I take a full width, full length shaving and call it quits. Charlie Rodgers Clinton, Maryland ---- Start of Message 128101 ---- From: "Peter.C.Monson@u..." Date: 2004-01-23 12:35:27 Subject: RE: Jointer (trying) plane advice wanted Michael and everyone: Thanks much for the advice. I have gotten a nice range of views here, both on and off list, and I do appreciate everyone taking the time to help me sort through this. Peter (in sunny Colorado where it is supposed to get to 60F today) Peter Monson wrote: > Hello good galoots: I am considering buying a big plane (approx. 22-24" in length), primarily for flattening large table tops, etc., and wanted to get some of the collective wisdom of this group. [snip] Michael Campbell replied: Well, for one thing I don't believe (and it is just that, a belief) that you HAVE to lap a jointer plane perfectly flat. From what I've been reading, so long as the toe, heel, and area just ahead of the mouth are in the same plane, you're fine. If other areas of the sole happen to share that plane, so much the better. Obviously, the other areas of the sole shouldn't be PROUD of that toe/mouth/heel plane. I have an Knight jointer, but haven't yet used it. It's a beautiful piece of work though. However, your concern seemed to be mainly related to sole flatness and lapping, which I don't believe is a huge issue. As far as bedrock vs. non, which type, and so forth, well... I'm not sure that once tuned, that that difference much matters in the end product, that being a flat surface. Type 'x' might be more fiddly than type 'y', and bedrocks have some nifty features, but I'm not sure that it matters [much] when all is said and done. Lastly, good luck trying to FIND a type 11 or bedrock jointer for a reasonable price. It seems everyone and his brother is scrambling for them. The Knight jointer is a fearsome, beautiful, scary beast, and you can get one for a reasonable price, quickly. #7's are in pretty good supply, so my advice would be to pick either of those and start shoppin'. Anyone with opposing views, by all means air them. I'm new at this and would love to learn from anyone elses experience. Michael, feeling contemplative. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128102 ---- From: Will Underwood Date: 2004-01-23 11:44:56 Subject: Re: Discolored maple? Folks, The Forest Service publication that Roger mentioned can be found online in pdf format (unfortunately not scanned in color) at the following url: http://www.fs.fed.us/ne/newtown_square/publications/research_papers/pdf- s/scanned/rp127a.pdf Will Underwood Auburn, AL >Most of this info comes from "A photo guide to the patterns of >discoloration and decay in living northern hardwood trees" by Alex >Shigo and Edwin Larson U.S.D.A Forest Service Research Paper NE-127 >1969. Fellow Galoot Will Underwood salvaged it from the dumpster when >some retired wildlife or forestry professor retired (yes, Will I will >bring it back to you now). ---- Start of Message 128103 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-23 10:49:51 Subject: RE: edge jointing boards I think lateral adjusters are convenient to use to compensate for less-than-square irons or less-than-perfect installation of the iron. ---- Start of Message 128104 ---- From: NickNaylo@a... Date: 2004-01-23 12:52:00 Subject: White paint...sheesh! Galoots, I know its been a while but just to add one more explanation for white paint on tools, I offer up the following. http://members.aol.com/nicknaylo/images/shoppainting1.jpg.jpg Note the perfect handle screwdriver that opened that 15 yr old can of white paint, the ubiquitous splatter thereupon, while the GIT worked painted her own model workshop, complete with a "chimbly" that she's heard me wish for so often. Michael-San Francisco ---- Start of Message 128105 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-01-23 12:13:17 Subject: Re: Yankee 75 push brace jaws Jim, That other photo on the left, showing your Wall-O-Braces, is quite impressive. But I only see one brace with a bit. Isn't the whole idea that you have 1 bit in each brace, so you can grab one and go? You're not short on bits are you? Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, Massachusetts > I hope this may be of help to anyone curious about No > 75 Yankee push braces and their jaws. > > > ===== > Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) > ---- Start of Message 128106 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-23 18:12:21 Subject: Re: Casting Sand? / Stanley quality problems Blake's questions are getting harder to answer.. . . >Would sandblasting by a "restorer" lodge sand in crevices and if so how >hard would it be to tell it from casting sand=3F Weeell, I suspect there are practising casters on the list, but here goes. Castings are not done in pure sand - there used to be all kinds of 'secret' mixes which added stuff to help the sand retain its shape. Imagine damp sand with, oh, horsehair, for example - would retain a more exotic shape than damp sand alone. So close analysis might reveal microscopic bits of other stuff (not hair BTW) Sandblasting may use glass or other stuff of course - that would be obvious, if it wasn't a silica based granule. If it's well used sandblasting grit the corners may be rounded on the grains. and it would be homogenous - same stuff, same size grains, all the way through. My 2 denarii, and worth what it cost. . . Richard Wilson Thinking a microscope at least would be needed, and something more discriminatory as to composition called for.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 128107 ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-01-23 10:34:51 Subject: Re: Yankee 75 push brace jaws --- Alan Perreault wrote: > That other photo on the left, showing your > Wall-O-Braces, is quite > impressive. But I only see one brace with a bit. > Isn't the whole idea that > you have 1 bit in each brace, so you can grab one > and go? You're not short > on bits are you? Well, most of my user braces are closer to where I work, or in a toolbox that I carry around, and have bits, chain drill, or hollow augers in them. That picture was just part of one of the walls. And no, I'm not short on bits, just don't have one of each size in each style by each company yet--actually a long way from that. I think that my bit problem is storage. One set in a wood box that it came in, couple of user sets in cloth rolls, and lots of bits in cardboard boxes in a cupboard or a drawer. ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128108 ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-01-23 13:40:01 Subject: RE: Discolored maple? In one of his books (Fine Art of Cabinetmaking, IIRC), Krenov mentions his continuing quest for wood with "defects" and creating projects to highlight the unexpected color and shapes. I believe he cited maple streaking in specific. If you're looking for a nearly-white floor material or bookshelf, the mineral streaks are defects. If you want a Krenov-style cabinet or stock for a really cool turned object, they're a valuable addition. It's the same as a Borg lumber buyer culling out figured boards as less-desirable. Any wood you don't want, I'll be happy to take off your hands if you happen to be in the neighborhood.... Ken "Back in snowy Wisconsin" Meltsner ---- Start of Message 128109 ---- From: Bill Kasper Date: 2004-01-23 11:06:17 Subject: Re: Discolored maple? i was going to say...! i picked up this piece of maple from *bay (international, pervasive, and somewhat whacky online auction facilitator, jeff), and am planning on using it bookmatched in panels on a desk i'm still working on for MLW. http://members.cruzio.com/~cikasper/maple1.jpg http://members.cruzio.com/~cikasper/maple2.jpg i think it's the most beautiful piece of maple i've held in my hands. unfortunately, it was poorly planed (lots of tearout), so it needs work to make it right. best, bill felton, ca On Jan 23, 2004, at 10:40 AM, Meltsner, Kenneth wrote: > Any wood you don't want, I'll be happy to take off your hands if you > happen to be in the neighborhood.... ---- Start of Message 128110 ---- From: "Leon E. Zimlich" Date: 2004-01-23 18:54:33 Subject: re: Accckkk! How could this happen? I may be imagining it, but isn't oak bark a source for tannin, or tannic acid? Cork is the bark of a variety of oak (quercus suber). Would the moisture from your glue together with the presumed tannins in the cork be enough to rust your planes? I had occasion a few months back to replace the cork on a bulletin board at work, just as you did with cork tiles topped with rolled sheet cork. Though not outside the bulletin board was fixed in place making clamping the cork in place complicated. Rather than use a glue such as Titebond I used a contact cement, eliminating the need for clamps. Rolling the cork firmly with a veneer roller was enough to keep it in place. How do you plan to solve your problem? Will you replace all of the cork, or perhaps glue on another layer of the sheet cork? You might place a caul between the cork and your weights to save your planes and prevent a recurrence of the problem. Oh, and wax those planes. ;) Best wishes, Leon Zimlich in sunny Santa Barbara ---- Start of Message 128111 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-23 12:02:37 Subject: The old millrat completes a project. A couple of weeks ago I found a 4' diameter wagon wheel at an estate sale. It was a pile of rotten pieces, so I got it for $10. At first I thought that I would have to rebuild the hub, but once I got all the rot out of the mortices I could see that there was still enough oak left to support a wagon wheel which will only be used for decorative purposes. All the metal parts are OK. But the spokes and fellowes were beyond hope. The 14 spokes don't all fit like they should because of the rot in the hub. Some went in too deep, but I think that adds to the character of the piece. As do the knots and other defects in the wood which I found while walking along the railroad tracks. In order to get one continuous tone on the wood, which is 3 different kinds of wood, oak, poplar and maple, I had to char the surfaces with a propane torch and then wire brush off all the carbon with a soft wire brush. The wheel will sit in my front yard where the lawn sprinklers can wet it down several times a week, and in a year or so everything will turn a nice weathered gray. I originally intended to paint the metal, but decided that it looks better the way it is. Now I am not allowed to build any fires within this city, so it was necessary for me to cut the rim, expand it, and then weld it after it was all assembled. I assume that the metal parts are very old because the metal did not weld like I am accustomed to seeing steel weld. My best guess is wrought iron. Take a look at the whole process on my homepage: http://homepage.mac.com/oldmillrat/PhotoAlbum44.html The floor is now open for questions. No electrons were destroyed in this process, they were recycled. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 128112 ---- From: Roger Date: 2004-01-23 14:10:19 Subject: Re: Discolored maple? Bill Kasper and Kenneth Meltsner volunteered to take some streaked maple off my hands. Actually, Will and I quartersawed all of it and it is now drying in my sister's basement (fortunately she quit complaining about the "sour" smell after a couple weeks!). It is pretty stuff but a little "wild" for the stuff I usually make. Hopefully it will serve as inspiration. I saw a really nice table made of spalted maple with a purpleheart top recently and the combination worked well. We gave the butt (~30 inches long by ~26 inches diameter) to a bowl turner friend in TN. It will be interesting to see what he does with it! Roger in Alabama ---- Start of Message 128113 ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-01-23 14:44:22 Subject: Re: Is it safe to assume... Greetings Gang > > "Jernbolaget, Eskilstuna, Sweden" was another maker of quality chisels, > not connected to Berg as far as I know. Marvin is exactly right ... Jernbolaget actually preceded Berg by a long shot. Jernbolaget started up in 1811 .... Erik Anton Berg was born in 1856 and died in 1903 ... after he died, his brother in -law Carl Olsson took over and he ran it till 1912. Erik actually formed the company in 1880. BAHCO was formed in 1889 (the name comes from Bernt August Hjort & CO). BAHCO bought out Berg in 1959, and by then then had also bought Primus (the famous camp stoves) and Jernbolaget. BAHCO is now owned by SNAP-ON Tools, and I'm not sure of how Sanviks money ties in. I do know that Berg and Sanvik were co-marketing stuff internationally by the 1930's Jernbolagets early (say... pre-WWII) chisels and edge tools are on a dead par with Berg's IMHO. Both are beautifully made of the best of the Swedish "charcoal steel". Tom (the original Berg-Mad-Man) ---- Start of Message 128114 ---- From: Will Underwood Date: 2004-01-23 14:51:29 Subject: Discolored maple? Pictures Folks, Here are a few shots of the maple that Roger referenced in his earlier post. Lumberjacks trying to earn PhD's! http://www.auburn.edu/~underwv/maple/ Will Underwood and Roger Birkhead Auburn, AL ---- Start of Message 128115 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-23 16:42:37 Subject: Tote finishing question Hello GG's Last week I picked up an early Stanley #10 (Jack Rabbet) plane. I'm not sure the vintage, but it has the right hand thread brass depth adjuster, low knob, and 1892 Pat. cutting iron. The first thing I noticed is the nib on the tote is slightly longer, and the tote seems to be ever so slightly more comfortable in the hand (my imagination?). The question: The tote is silky smooth to the touch...really amazingly silky smooth. After close examination I found a well executed repair, which leads me to believe that the tote was refinished, but I couldn't tell from looking at it (excellent job?).. Does anybody know what this finish could be? It's different in texture than any other tote I have, and very desirable. Thanks Jonathan Peck NYC ---- Start of Message 128116 ---- From: "Chris Otto" Date: 2004-01-23 16:11:04 Subject: Re: Is it safe to assume... Since we got you on a roll... 1. What year did they stop marketing chisels with the E.A. Berg name? 2. Is there any period of production that's considered junk to be avoided? (cf. Stanley 'blue' or 'cordovan' periods for bench planes) 3. thinking back to the 30mm --> 1-3/16" paring chisel discussion we had about 15 months ago, is there a particular time when they started production in metric widths, or have they done that pretty much from the beginning? Could be a handy tidbit to keep in mind for dating purposes. Thanks Chris O. in snowy SE Wisconsin, where a Berg 25mm chisel fell into my hands last summer, original factory grind, most of decal remaining on handle... ---- Start of Message 128117 ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-01-23 14:16:02 Subject: Re: Is it safe to assume... --- Thomas Johnson wrote: > Hi Vlad, > Well, this is Bergmadman responding here ....... ... > Anyone have ANY paper on Swedish tools out there? > I'd love to add > stuff to my archives for the book that I plan to > write eventually > No papers, but I have a nice little 1/4" beveled bench chisel with the original label on the handle. The label says Solliden [a large S with A in the top curve, and B in the bottom] Sweden The blade says "Waern" in an oval, then Made in Sweden. It's a nicely turned handle unlike other ones I've seen. It's a nice chisel. Anyone have any idea of age or know anything about the manufacturer? Probably not old, but nice. AAAndrew Using nice tools in Durham, North Carolina and loving it. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128118 ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 2004-01-23 14:19:53 Subject: Re: Tote finishing question > The question: The tote is silky smooth to the touch...really amazingly > silky smooth. "I'll take finishes and feelings for $200, Jack." That'd be shellac, Jon. Nothing else feels like it, and once you've used it, there's pretty much no going back. Paddy - in sunny Pasadena, California, where our ET has phoned home but only barely. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128119 ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-01-23 14:30:02 Subject: Stanley 78 in antique shop Not all complete, front blade, chipbreaker are gone. Rear chipbreaker appears to have been repaired. $35.00 didn't see much rust sole looked ok in the once over.. Are any galoots looking for such a thing, or is the shop way out of line? -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ---- Start of Message 128120 ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-01-23 14:36:47 Subject: Re: Discolored maple? Pictures IMHO that's some of the most striking and beautiful wood I've seen, especially the file 0028. It looks like something that will make one of those amazing tables or pieces of furniture you see in books and just drool. AAAndrew Who could easily slide down a wood slope with not even the slightest nudge in Durham, North Carolina --- Will Underwood wrote: > Folks, > > Here are a few shots of the maple that Roger > referenced in his earlier > post. Lumberjacks trying to earn PhD's! > > http://www.auburn.edu/~underwv/maple/ > > Will Underwood and Roger Birkhead > > Auburn, AL > > > Archive: > http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web > interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128121 ---- From: Omi Chandiramani Date: 2004-01-23 17:10:16 Subject: Thanks Galootaclaus! I'm writing to say a very big THANK YOU to my galootaclaus! The package arrived yesterday evening and I could hardly contain myself. Even forgot to say hi to SWMBO when I walked in the house and scurried off to open the box... eep. Thanks for the "tail-less shellac mixer" which keeps out air bubbles. I am almost at the finishing stage of some oak bedside tables I am making, and I was going to try shellac for the first time (ordering soon, Paddy). I had no idea that you had to make sure that there were no bubbles in the mixed shellac - just the kind of mistake I would have made. So thanks for the tool, *and* the tip! I've been cursing my cheap and now deformed oilstone for a few months now.. how did you know that!?? The Norton replacement you sent was desperately needed. THANKS GALOOTACLAUS! And also a hearty thanks to Michael and Greg for administering the gift swap this year! Omi ---- Start of Message 128122 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-23 18:41:57 Subject: RE: edge jointing boards Charlie writes : >> Ed planes down the middle of the edge. The sole of the plane is >> in full contact with the edge. It's not parallel to the desired >> flat line. By using the lateral lever, so that the blade takes >> more wood off the high side than the low side, he planes down the >> surface of the edge. > >This is how I do it, and I thought that was the reason for the >lateral adjuster (?) If not, then why did Stanley put it there? >I also use a 2" machinist's square to check progress and when I'm >real close, I square up the blade and just hit the high spots. >When I think I'm there, I take a full width, full length shaving >and call it quits. So what do you do if your edge is tilted one way at one end and the other at the other end ? Do you stop and tilt the blade the other way ? How do you know how much to tilt it ? I believe the lateral adjuster is there to set the blade parallel to the sole. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 128123 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-23 18:44:56 Subject: Re: Is it safe to assume... I noticed this afternoon that what used to be Sanvik saws at the hardware store are now Bahco saws. Same saws. Guess Sanvik is now gone as well. Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 128124 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-01-23 18:55:36 Subject: Re: Stanley 78 in antique shop GG's/The other Al, The #78 Stanley plane is quite common on the big, online, auction house. I just got 27 hits, searching on "Stanley Plane 78", some of which are for parts or incomplete versions. If I was looking for one (I have several already) I would wait for a complete one. You'll end up paying more if you buy one incomplete and then try to complete it. I inherited a #78 from my dad, which lead me to #b*y, for a fence, which eventually brought me here. It was the push which started me sliding downhill. Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, Ma > Not all complete, front blade, chipbreaker are gone. Rear chipbreaker appears > to have been repaired. > > $35.00 didn't see much rust sole looked ok in the once over.. > > Are any galoots looking for such a thing, or is the shop way out of line? > > -- Alan ---- Start of Message 128125 ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-01-23 19:45:29 Subject: Re: Discolored maple? Bill Kasper is in heaven ... > i think it's the most beautiful piece of maple i've held in my hands. > unfortunately, it was poorly planed (lots of tearout), so it needs work > to make it right. My too short experience with sawmill management taught me why figure is undesireable in making lumber -- the planer mill will tear up the product unless it is cut from straight grain. Almost nobody even remotely considers having a guy with a handplane on staff standing by to properly surface & dimension a piece of figured lumber. This short piece Bill's gushing over would be considered a throwaway in a lot of mills. I'd say it's a keeper. Charlie Driggs Newark DE ---- Start of Message 128126 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-01-23 16:55:12 Subject: RE: edge jointing boards --- Paul Pedersen wrote: >> So what do you do if your edge is tilted one way at one end > and the other at the other end ? Do you stop and tilt the > blade the other way ? How do you know how much to tilt it ? > I believe the lateral adjuster is there to set the blade > parallel to the sole. Hi Paul: This is the reason for the tried and true cambered edge. By selective use of both edges of the plane, one can trim a high left edge and a high right edge in the same pass. The lateral adjuster is there to set the blade parallel to the sole, yes, and to set it off-kilter, too. Some will say that they can trim an edge square by holding the plane square, and maybe they can, but holding the sole down firmly on the wood is the basic skill of most plane technique-----you hold the plane flat and set the iron to do certain things with respect to the sole----cut heavy on the right, cut square, cut heavy on the left--- A crowned cutter can do all these things consistently, at once. best to all galoots; GAM in Seattle ===== ____________________________________________________________ Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. D. D. Eisenhower ____________________________________________________________ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128127 ---- From: Bill Kasper Date: 2004-01-23 16:55:35 Subject: Re: Discolored maple? i'd do that job...where do i sign up? lol... truly, i think they ought to finish one side, leave the rest rough, and sell it cheaply through our local borgii. and indeed, it is a keeper. bill felton, ca On Jan 23, 2004, at 4:45 PM, Charlie Driggs wrote: > Almost nobody even remotely considers having a guy with a handplane on > staff standing by to > properly surface & dimension a piece of figured lumber. This short > piece Bill's gushing over would be considered a throwaway in a lot of > mills. I'd say it's a keeper. ---- Start of Message 128128 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-01-23 21:12:51 Subject: Re: butternut/chestnut Jonathon provided a nice summary of Hickory trees. I was intrigued by... > Shagbark Hickory > The wood is > hard, strong, tough and elastic, and is used in handles for > tools and in athletic equipment. The wood also makes > excellent firewood, and often is used in smoking meat. As > with other edible nuts, squirrels compete with humans for > this fruit. And the squirrels bury the nuts all around your yard so that in the spring you have little hickory trees growing all around. My property (which is not too large) borders a large wooded area so a small part of my yard is woods. I have a couple of good size Shagbarks in my yard. Therein, is my naive question. I know I have a number of hickory saplings growing along the woods. But, if I ever need to cut one of the saplings down - would they be okay for a handle or should the wood really be split out of a more mature tree? Just curious as it might give me some incentive to let more grow (great - I am going to start raising trees now, also....) Bruce Love Pipersville, PA (who is lamenting the fact that he won't be attending any portion of the MWTCA meeting in York, PA this weekend - just too many commitments right now....) ---- Start of Message 128129 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-23 21:31:44 Subject: Re: Tote finishing question >That'd be shellac, Jon. Nothing else feels like it, and once you've used it, >there's pretty much no going back. > Soooo ....I've got shellac on my jack and there's no going back. In this pic, the sweat marks are turning black in the back of my jack at the crack, and still it feels like velvet Elvis that aint no shtick. http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/member.php Thanks Jonathan ---- Start of Message 128130 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-23 21:38:29 Subject: Re: Tote finishing question Ooooooooooh Man. I did it again. http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=313 Polishing, polishing, polishing, polishing, polishing, ---- Start of Message 128131 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-23 18:58:28 Subject: Re: Tote finishing question I used to use clear lacquer on totes, and with wet sanding with very fine paper followed by #0000 steel wool followed by wax you get a delicious feeling tote. Unfortunately the finish is hard and easily damaged. I now do not put any finish on my totes at all. I just buff them with tripoli compound after fine sanding and get the same finish which is easy to repair. Rosewood likes wax. On Friday, January 23, 2004, at 01:42 PM, Jonathan Peck wrote: > > The question: > The tote is silky smooth to the touch...really amazingly > silky smooth. After close examination I found a well > executed repair, which leads me to believe that the tote was > refinished, but I couldn't tell from looking at it > (excellent job?).. Does anybody know what this finish could > be? It's different in texture than any other tote I have, > and very desirable. > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 128132 ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-01-23 22:04:45 Subject: Re: Tote finishing question Jonathan Peck wrote: > Ooooooooooh Man. I did it again. > > http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=313 > Polishing, polishing, polishing, polishing, polishing, If *I* wanted this velvety goodness on MY totes, what do I do? I'd been leaving them as-is thus far. Just strip the existing finish off (with what, lacquer thinner/stripper?) and re-finish with shellac? ---- Start of Message 128133 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-23 21:11:43 Subject: Re: What is WITH THIS SLOPE? Good post but I disagree in a mild sense because there are a lot of truly mainstream links heading in this direction. One of my favorite magazines, WOOD magazine often does articles on using scrapers as a method of finishing. And that leads towards using handplanes. I have always been an avid tinkerer of things both wood and metal and sharpening has been a neccessity of life. For me the biggest thing that got me really looking into the finishing end of manual woodworking is Bill Penske's site about Dust Collection. He's a guy who taught woodworking all his life in schools and finally could not anymore due to the tolls sanding dust took on his lungs. So he made it his goal to educate the public and he has this huge long incredibly complex site with many formulae to apply to DC. I mean it is something. We are talking engineering level math here with a lot of new technical terms to learn. All just to save lungs from p*wer sanding dust for the most part. And in that he reccomends using planes. So that led me to a few antique and old tool forums until I quickly ended up here. This place is an amazing resource of information and that latest link to rust shows that. Plus I have all these old tools laying around that my father and grandfather have left me. Doesn't hurt to use what you got. Some of it is practical, some of it is a sentimental form of respect. Funny some of the oldtools I have. I only recently learned I have a genuine sheepshearer. My father's father was a furier and made clothes out of furs for people so I would not be surprised if it was simply passed down from father to son and I am the last of my family's name. I also have the original nail pulling tool they built their house with out on the east coast. Now I found some tools similiar to that but with different designs. I suspect maybe different kinds of forging tongs or maybe horseshoeing tools. It never ceases to amaze me what I find when cleaning areas that haven't been cleaned in decades. > [Original Message] > From: CheekyGeek > To: oldtools > Date: 1/23/2004 8:21:20 AM > Subject: Re:[oldtools] What is WITH THIS SLOPE? > > Yep, I can vouch for those sentiments. There are many paths down the > slippery slope. When I tripped over the Porch in late '95, I had no idea > that there were wackos in the world who used tools that required no tails > or r*ch*rg*ble b*tt*ry p*cks. But I was instantly intrigued by learning > the ways of generations of craftsmen that had come before me and soon > found myself picking up a few oldtools (something I had never even > noticed existed in the universe before). > > Life takes its twists and turns and there may be periods when, like me, > woodworking itself exists only in the theoretical. But I'm finally at the > point where I have a decent place to work and, like many, now try to grab > some snippets of time (some longer than others) learning to tune and > actually use the tools. > > I wonder if this group realizes how influential it has been over the last > 10 years or so? > > We now see a real resurgence in oldtool/handtool articles in the popular > woodworking magazines of today (many featuring the work of Porch > denizens). Book titles on the subjects are becoming increasingly common. > There is even increased interest in the production of hand tools by > concerns large and small. We don't really hear the term "neanderthal" > used that much anymore as now the general concensus seems to be that > respect for handtool proficiency is soaring. > > Certainly, the tool collecting associations probably began this trend. > But I think it is the Galoots that we have to thank for putting the real > USE of those tools back on the front burner. In any event, I think the > porch has been instrumental in speading the word beyond the big city > groups to individuals, wherever they may live, throughout the world. > > Darren Addy > Kearney, Nebraska > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 128134 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-23 21:20:29 Subject: Re: Auger bit question I think my knowlegde of newer tools could shed a little light on this one. I believe what they mean by an extension cut bit is much like today's adjustable circle cutters. I think they still make new spade boring bits like the one you are mentioning. They have a screw or two in a slot and when loosened it allows you to adjust the size of the hole being drilled. So the extension part refers to an extended cutter that goes outside the usual diameter of the bit. That extension is a cutting spur. I dunno if this helps. > [Original Message] > From: Don McConnell > To: oldtools > Date: 1/22/2004 9:00:29 AM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] Auger bit question > > Jonathan Peck asked: > > >Are there any familiar with: > >Set No. 200 Jennings Pattern Extension Cut Spur Auger Bits > >Maufactured by THE SNELL MANUFACTURING CO. FISKDALE, MASS. > >Pat. Sept 28 1886. > > > >What is a pattern extension cut spur auger bit? > >Some are are marked SNELL JENNINGS, Excelsior, and SNELL > >M"FG CO. > > I'm not familiar with these particular bits, so can't answer your > specific question. I'm wondering, though, if they wouldn't be > described as "Extension Cut Spur Auger Bits" in the Jennings > Pattern? > > In the hopes that the patent would help shed some light on your > question, I spent some time attempting to track that down. I may > very well be overlooking something, but the only patent for Sept. > 28, 1886, which seemed possibly relevant, was patent No. 350,016, > issued to G.E. Richards, for a "Box for Tools" (i.e. auger bits). > The patent was assigned to the Snell Manufacturing Company. So, > it seems possible that the "Pat. Sept 28, 1886" text refers to > the box rather than to the bits. ?? > > I then turned to the DAT to see if there might be any additional > hints. The listing for the Snell Manufacturing Company included > the following: "... One item they made had a 21 Dec. 1858 > patent which was reissued 3 Aug. 1869." That being my only > lead, I decided to see if I could track that patent down. > > As best I can determine, the patent in question is No. 22,379, > issued Dec. 21, 1858, to George F. Rice, of Worcester, MA, for > a boring machine. The Letters Patent indicates it was reissued on > August 3, 1869. The reissued patent, RE3574, was granted to: > "Emory L. Bates (Assignee of George F. Rice.), of Fiskedale, > Massachusetts." No specific mention of the Snell Manufacturing > Company, though Mr. Bates' location seems potentially significant. > > > Unfortunately, a patent for a boring machine doesn't shed any > light on the bits in question. Do you think the bits are > original? And, if so, is there anything notable about them? > > Don McConnell > Knox County, Ohio > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 128135 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-23 21:41:10 Subject: RE: oaken well cover My old cabin I have mentioned before had a cistern well which is a smaller well into which the gutters empty the rainwater. The resulting water is not for drinking but fine for bathing and plants and doing the dishes. It was originally seperate from the house but expanded onto as a place to store wood for a day or two so one would not have to walk outside during the cold night I suppose. Anyway it had a typical round cover made of side by side boards like you mentioned except that in the center it had a hole big enough for a full size's man fist and then some to get through. I'm guessing it was probably used with some string or a stick to occasionally drop down that hole and check how much water is down there. You might want to bring that up to them and see if it is an issue or not but even a small child can't slide down a hole that small. Myself, in this day and age I would want some screening in that to keep bugs out. I don't know if you have that problem over in England but lately in American mosquito born diseases have been all the media news rage. In general, though, it is good practice to keep anything out of the water supply. When I was a kid my cousin dug big holes to go in to work under an old car. I often found salamanders and snakes that got into the hole that could not get out. > [Original Message] > From: > To: oldtools > Date: 1/22/2004 8:51:50 AM > Subject: [oldtools] oaken well cover > > I've just been commissioned to make a cover for a well from oak. > > well - 30' hole in ground full of 25' of water. Brick circular top > > Children in family - well = magnetism, depth = hazard.. > > > So, My thoughts are to arrange some boards beside each other, make a > suitable bow saw, and saw out the shape of the top. > > Now - for the well knowledgeable amongst us - Do I need to allow for air > movement? > > > If so, then a barred window in the centre, needing brace, bit, pole lathe, > gouge, skew chisel, calipers, would be good, and then perhaps space the > boards apart by about an inch using dowels as both spacers and joiners. > On the underside a pair of boards cross wise - brass screwed upwards to > ensure the whole thing stands abuse, and on the top a couple of shaped > handles needing some detail work with a spokeshave - the bow saw should > suffice for cutting out. > > There is a question about some form of lock which would look in keeping > and sightly. > > Thoughts? suggestions? > > I'm at the stage of thinking a chunky 2 x 3 through mortice at each side, > and bolt a couple of upward projecting tenons to the inside well sides to > project through the lid. A simple stainless pin through the tenon with a > padlock to prevent withdrawal would then suffice. But I'd like to avoid > the lock being on top. > > Perhaps the pin runs through below and is locked off via the barred > window?? > > Help! > > > > > Richard Wilson > Thinking if 't were mine I couldn't afford what I'd need to charge to > meet the spec using twiddly bits. . . > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------- > > For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website > at www.salvesen.com. > > The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and > for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged > and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, > use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended > recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this > message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return > e-mail. > > Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to > ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. > However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a > result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your > own virus checks before opening any attachment. > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 128136 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-23 21:52:33 Subject: Re: oak staining & shellac I have a suggestion for another way to skin the proverbial cat so to speak. When I refinished my red oak floor in my living room I used Watco Golden Oil stain. Only I tend to kind of overengineer things. So I put 5 coats on followed by 3 coats of an alkyd resin varnish designed for use on gymnasium floors. (Hey, I wanted something TOUGH) The end effect was that the red oak grain is somewhat obscured. Since I added so much stain repeatedly the color is more like the factory wood sample finished with Honey Oak rather than Golden Oak but that is fine with me because that was my second choice anyway. I think the reason this happens is due to the nature of the pigment in the Watco Oil Stain. It toned down the grain. If you are really concerned about it I'd probably fill the grain first but myself I do not care for grain filling products. If you are going to do it the one method I do use and like is the wet sanding slurry method where you wet sand with black sandpaper and this own wooddust packs itself back into the pores of the wood. I did a oak and walnut chess table this way two decades ago and it still looks great today. Matter of fact I never even put a new high-tech finish on that. It was just deftoil which is a stain and tung oil mixed product. Followed only by coats of wax and buffing the top to a high gloss with soft cotton rags. (the cloth baby diapers work superbly for this, BTW) > [Original Message] > From: Kirk Eppler > To: oldtools > Cc: oldtools > Date: 1/22/2004 10:19:48 AM > Subject: Re: [oldtools] oak staining & shellac > > I've used Jeff Jewitt's recipe for a mission finish (See it at) > > http://www.woodcentral.com/shots/shot108.shtml > > Jeff's got a slightly different approach now. (Starts down the page a > way) > > http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/mission_oak.htm > > I'd drop Jeff a note, and ask him how to minimize the grain > > Also, an article in the Cleveland Plain Dealer about the guy, for the > interested. > > http://www.cleveland.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/107450832864460.xml?noh io%3cBR%3e > > > > Larry Marshall wrote about degraining a mission finish. > > > What I need to do, however, is darken it and, at the same time reduce > > the contrast in the grain. I figure that the best way to do > > that is with a dye rather than a pigment so I'm looking for some 'hey, > > this works' suggestions. Is there a super-dee-duper paste > > wood filler that would both fill the grain and tone down the grain > > simultaneously? > > -- > Kirk Eppler (Quoting various previous sources, in terms of brevity and > bandwidth, as well as to promote getting out on the web and looking) > No financial interest, other than too occasionally sending him money, > and finishing stuff shows up on my porch. And his "Hand Applied > Finishes is a great book, which I promised Mr. Greenberg I'd write a > review of. > Global Mfg Science and Technology > Eppler.Kirk@g... > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 128137 ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-01-23 19:55:03 Subject: Frey brace de-greasing I've been using my Frey Spoffard brace and whoever last owned it greased the head with something that resembles crude oil. It's thick and very black. I keep getting it on my hands and even got it on the wood. Nothing a finely-set smoother couldn't take care of, but it's reached the pain-in-the-a$$ state. I tried to take the head off by unscrewing the two screws on the underside of the head, but that didn't seem to do anything. So, how do I remove the head and collar, and what should I use to grease it after getting rid of the crude oil? BTW, the brace is one of the early transitional ones that's also marked Stanley. AAAndrew __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128138 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-01-23 23:20:58 Subject: Re: Tote finishing question Jim Thompson wrote: > I used to use clear lacquer on totes, and with wet sanding with very > fine paper followed by #0000 steel wool followed by wax you get a > delicious feeling tote. I held one of George Langford's re-created totes in my hand and immediately finished a couple his way. Nothing but tongue oil, a couple of coats, with the last coat put on with 600 grit sandpaper. The oil turns the rosewood a darker shade and boy does it look nice. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 128139 ---- From: "John Wardle" Date: 2004-01-23 20:48:18 Subject: Re: Frey brace de-greasing Maybe you could soak justthe head end in a small container of thinner to = break up the grease. Something like a smallish coffee can and periodically = swirl it around to work the thinner inside.... Ofc. John D. Wardle Lane Community College=20 Department of Public Safety 4000 East 30th Ave. Eugene, Oregon 97431 "I'm not the cause of your problems but the result of your actions. Your = life is not my fault" TO IGNORE THE FACTS, DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACTS. >>> Andrew Midkiff 01/23/04 07:55PM >>> I've been using my Frey Spoffard brace and whoever last owned it greased the head with something that resembles crude oil. It's thick and very black. I keep getting it on my hands and even got it on the wood. Nothing a finely-set smoother couldn't take care of, but it's reached the pain-in-the-a$$ state.=20 I tried to take the head off by unscrewing the two screws on the underside of the head, but that didn't seem to do anything.=20 So, how do I remove the head and collar, and what should I use to grease it after getting rid of the crude oil?=20 BTW, the brace is one of the early transitional ones that's also marked Stanley.=20 AAAndrew __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/=20 ---- Start of Message 128140 ---- From: Johnny Johnson Date: 2004-01-24 00:13:04 Subject: Re: Frey brace de-greasing At 07:55 PM 1/23/04 -0800, Andrew Midkiff wrote: >So, how do I remove the head and collar, and what >should I use to grease it after getting rid of the >crude oil? Hi Andrew, I think you'll find that the wooden head is actually threaded onto the plate and that the screws just keep it from unscrewing. Later, Johnny __________________________ Johnny Johnson Lilburn, GA mailto:jjohnso4@c... ---- Start of Message 128141 ---- From: Kyle Accardi Date: 2004-01-23 21:29:42 Subject: Re: Tote finishing question Michele Minch wrote: > > Jim Thompson wrote: > >> I used to use clear lacquer on totes, and with wet sanding with very >> fine paper followed by #0000 steel wool followed by wax you get a >> delicious feeling tote. > > > I held one of George Langford's re-created totes in my hand and > immediately finished a couple his way. Nothing but tongue oil, a couple > of coats, with the last coat put on with 600 grit sandpaper. The oil > turns the rosewood a darker shade and boy does it look nice. The tool gods smiled upon me last week and I now have four bench planes to clean up (3, 5-1/4, 5 & 6); all later types (18+19s). The finish is okay on most, but on the #6 the knob's shellac was flaking so I sanded it all off and gave it plenty of mineral oil, the food-safe kind you use on cutting boards. I had done this to the poor #7 (jointer) I posted pix of a few weeks ago--the one that had most likely been dunked in MEK (paint stripper). Gorilla glue in the big crack and CA in the smaller ones and a hose clamp over night made for a pretty decent repair. This one was rosewood and the mineral oil did darken it. The larger glue joint stayed light but it's okay with me--dammit Jim, I'm a user... So I know I like mineral oil, but I'm gonna experiment with the others. Just don't like stuff that stinks, I do have some chemical sensitivities so am always leary to try unknown finishes. Speaking of which, I plan on googling on wood finishes for people like me, but in the mean time can anyone speak to a good non-stinky finish appropriate for my new bench (which is in the glue stages, btw)? Namely, will BLO and shellac make me want to hurl? Cheers, Kyle Accardi up to my elbows in rust dust and happy ---- Start of Message 128142 ---- From: Gregory Isola Date: 2004-01-23 22:01:24 Subject: Re: travisher radius David wants to roll his own travisher blade and was asking about measurements of actual examples . . . **************** I have an as-yet-untouched Bristol Design travisher kit*, and I just came back in from measuring the blade. ~3 5/8" from outside of one tang tip to the other tangs taper from 1/8" at the tip to 3/16" where they meet the blade cutting edge is 2 7/8" from end to end middle of cutting edge is 5/16" below a straight horizontal line from end to end Hope this makes sense, helps, etc. Greg Isola Alameda, CA *rough-cut stock/body, blade, two attaching screws, and photocopied instructions were taped together and unceremoniously chucked in the bargain bin at The Japan Woodworker. $20 for the lot. ---- Start of Message 128143 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-01-24 08:10:23 Subject: RE: edge jointing boards : -----Original Message----- : From: Rodgers Charles [mailto:rodgers_charles@b...] : Sent: 23 January 2004 17:25 : To: oldtools : Subject: RE:[oldtools] edge jointing boards : > By using the lateral lever, so that the blade takes : > more wood off the high side than the low side, he planes down the : > surface of the edge. : Snip : : This is how I do it, and I thought that was the reason for the : lateral adjuster (?) If not, then why did Stanley put it there? This is a common misunderstanding but it is there simply to enable the blade to be properly set after insertion. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 128144 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-01-24 12:04:57 Subject: Spokeshave Fix It's close but of all my old tools spokeshaves are my favorite in fact I am opening a home for misunderstood shaves. Those of you who can never get them to cut right can send them to me. You have enough frustration in your life, right? Any how I have always wished that some of my old metal shaves would take a finer cut and leave a smoother surface but no amount of tuning would get what I wanted. Now I'm a little slow (OK a lot slow) but it dawned on me that to take a finer cut with a plane you close the mouth. Most shaves don't have adjustable mouthsso what to do why put a shim behind the blade. I didn't have any thin metal stock so looking around I found I had more unused metal than I should. Beer Cans! The real beauty of this is that different shaves require diferent thicknesses to work right. Beer comes in different guage cans! Force youself to experiment buy many kinds or beer to get the stock you need. A word of caution. These cut edges a sharp try to seperate collecting the raw material from making the shims. Bandaids are hard to apply with one hand. DAMHIKT. Steve ---- Start of Message 128145 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-01-24 08:47:40 Subject: Re: Stanley 78 in antique shop > for one (I have several already) I would wait for a complete one. > You'll end up paying more if you buy one incomplete and then try > to complete it. I inherited a #78 from my dad, which lead me to Correct me if I'm wrong but the original post suggested that the #78 comes (normally) with two blades and two knickers. I don't think that's true. If I'm correct in this, the fact that "the front nicker and front blade are missing" is simply a statement that the blade and nicker are in the rear slot, not that the plane is incomplete. There should be one fence, one nicker, and one depth gauge, right? -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 128146 ---- From: sepost@i... (Scott Post) Date: 2004-01-24 09:09:45 Subject: Re: What is WITH THIS SLOPE?; > John Sawchak wrote: > > Good post but I disagree in a mild sense because there are a lot of truly > mainstream links heading in this direction. One of my favorite magazines, > WOOD magazine often does articles on using scrapers as a method of > finishing. And that leads towards using handplanes. > I just went through the dozen or so issues of Wood I have from the mid-90's and there isn't a hand tool mention to be found, with the exception of a couple articles on carving. No scrapers, no planes, no hand cut dovetails. Just lots of pukey duck scrollsaw plans. Fine Woodworking has always been good about having hand tool articles and American Woodworker from that period featured them occasionally but, by and large, hand tools were ignored in American woodworking magazines up until a resurgence in the past few years. Lately they've been getting darned near equal billing with power tools in some magazines and at least a bit of respect in others. It's been an amazing transformation and I agree with Darren that the Oldtools list played a big part in it. The list started in the mid-90's as a split off from rec.woodworking and quickly grew to thousands of members. At the time there were no web forums or other online havens for hand tool officianados. If you asked a handtool question on rec.woodworking you were pointed to the list. I'd like to think magazine and book editors took note of the list's quick growth and saw an unfilled niche for their publications to fill. -- Scott Post sepost@i... http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/ ---- Start of Message 128147 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-01-24 09:10:43 Subject: Re: Stanley 78 in antique shop Larry, Yup, the #78 has only one blade set which can be mounted at 2 locations. I was refering to the repair of the chipbreaker. Al Perreault Westminster, Ma > Correct me if I'm wrong but the original post suggested that the #78 > comes (normally) with two blades and two knickers. I don't think > that's true. > > Cheers --- Larry Marshall > Quebec City, QC > ---- Start of Message 128148 ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-01-24 09:23:27 Subject: Re: Tote finishing question Kyle Accardi wrote: > Namely, will BLO and shellac make me want to hurl? Once cured, Shellac is odorless. Considering they put it on candies and pills, I'd guess it wouldn't upset your chemical sensitivities, either. Don't know about the BLO though. ---- Start of Message 128149 ---- From: pedger66@j... Date: 2004-01-24 09:22:59 Subject: Re: tote finishing question Hey Ed, do you call it "tongue oil" because it made from tongues or do you apply it with your tongue? (Haw haw). Brother, I think it is called "tung" oil because it comes from the oriental tung tree. Ducking and running with his tung hanging out, (wow, that sounds bad, don't it?) Phil E. ---- Start of Message 128150 ---- From: "Mike Duchaj" Date: 2004-01-24 09:37:40 Subject: Re: Spokeshave Fix Hi Steve, I would like to see some pictures and have a report of results from your efforts. I have 2 metal shaves, and I still always reach for my Gill Chesbourgh pattern galoot shave. (wood bodied with a Hock blade.) I can't get the metal ones to cut acceptably. The real beauty of this is that different shaves require diferent thicknesses to work right. Beer comes in different guage cans! > Force youself to experiment buy many kinds or beer to get the stock you need. Mike Duchaj Elgin, IL ---- Start of Message 128151 ---- From: wayne.a.anderson@a... Date: 2004-01-24 15:56:38 Subject: Re: Casting Sand? / Stanley quality problems > There is still casting sand stuck to the >bottom of the chute board from its manufacture!" Back when I used to buy Stanley planes for use or resale, I would frequently discover bits of black sand in the bottom of holes. I assumed it was either casting sand or perhaps cleaning media used to clean castings. I also assumed that the presence of this indicated that I was the first to disassemble the tool since it left the factory. Rather than looking at it as a QC problem, I saw it as a good sign that it probably had the original parts. Wayne A. FOYBIPM ---- Start of Message 128152 ---- From: vladimir spehar Date: 2004-01-24 10:58:33 Subject: Re: Is it safe to assume... Chris, Here is a decent site. Perhaps it doesn't answer your questions but some good reference material nonetheless. Vlad http://www.the-ekd.co.uk/1024/sweden.htm --- Chris Otto wrote: > Since we got you on a roll... > > 1. What year did they stop marketing chisels with > the E.A. Berg name? > > 2. Is there any period of production that's > considered junk to be avoided? (cf. Stanley 'blue' > or 'cordovan' periods for bench planes) > > 3. thinking back to the 30mm --> 1-3/16" paring > chisel discussion we had about 15 months ago, is > there a particular time when they started production > in metric widths, or have they done that pretty much > from the beginning? Could be a handy tidbit to keep > in mind for dating purposes. > > Thanks > > Chris O. in snowy SE Wisconsin, where a Berg 25mm > chisel fell into my hands last summer, original > factory grind, most of decal remaining on handle... > > Archive: > http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web > interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ===== Cheers. Vladimir (Vlad) Spehar Spehar ToolWorks. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ---- Start of Message 128153 ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-01-24 12:14:12 Subject: Galootaclaus sent something special - thank you! The moon & the stars came together today. 1. It is snowing ... beautiful, fluffy powder .... just as it should be for the Galootaclause holidays 2. I've been reading Whelan's "The Wooden Plane" for the last two days .... and wishing that I had done this long ago (an excellent book, brings a bunch of seemingly unrelated facts and tidbits I already knew nicely together into a cohesive understanding) ... and 3. My Galootaclaus gift shows up, specially carried up the long driveway by our mail carrier. Wife & MIL looked on in mild interest as I cut open the box and read the note from my anonymous Galoot buddy in Santa Cruz, CA, but they had nowhere near the appreciation I had for what was inside ... a Driggs & Warner / Phoenix Factory molding plane. Woodies from this maker are the only tools I'll readily admit to 'collecting'. This one is a ½" diameter side bead (for those of you familiar with Whelan's ID system, it is a 44.53 profile) that obviously has been used many, many times over in the 151-155 years since it was made. But the iron still matches the profile, the boxing is complete, the wedge fits well and looks correct, and there are no compromising cracks despite a few chips and nicks here and there. It looks as though with just a little cleanup it could go back to work. And the icing on the cake ... it has that one mandatory mark of a prized Galoot tool, a single 1/16th inch diameter dot of light green paint on the left cheek of the body. ;-) For your obvious thoughtfulness, I thank you, Galootaclaus!! This was worth the wait. Charlie Driggs Newark DE ---- Start of Message 128154 ---- From: Jim Erdman Date: 2004-01-24 09:27:13 Subject: Re: Frey brace de-greasing --- Andrew Midkiff wrote: > I tried to take the head off by unscrewing the two > screws on the underside of the head, but that didn't > seem to do anything. > > So, how do I remove the head and collar, and what > should I use to grease it after getting rid of the > crude oil? I usually don't take the head off, as it is hard to get it screwed back on just right so it is snug and the 2 or 3 small wood screws line up right in the holes. After these small screws are removed, the head should unscrew from the metal part, as someone else mentioned. Instead of disassembling it, I usually spray some WD40 or run some kerosene or light oil in the bearing surfaces of the head, and do lots of mopping up with rags, and then lubricate with gun oil or whatever kind of mix of left over auto and misc lubes are in my oil can. If I have something like this apart, I use the white Lubriplate engine assembly lube (available in a big squeeze tube at auto parts stores) or some gun grease (available in a small tube at sporting goods stores). If the tool that I need to clean has no wood or plastic (you know, like the gutta percha used for handles on some old braces) near the parts I need to clean, such as the chuck on a brace, I set it in a coffee can of kerosene for awhile--hours to weeks sometimes--to soak the old grease and grunge to soften things up before going further. Speaking of which, I thnk that one brace has had it's chuck soaking for months out in the shop. Looks like a sunny day, may get above zero, so the shop should be 20 above (that Fahrenheit degrees) and I can go out and work on some tools. Maybe even work on some wood. ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128155 ---- From: Ren Tescher Date: 2004-01-24 11:55:49 Subject: Sniffing chemicals WAS: staining oak and shellac Fellow porchites, I recall from my high school Physical Science class (sort of an introductory to Chemistry, Biology and other Physical Sciences)m that the proper way to 'smell/sniff' the contents of a bottle was to open it, place it on the bench and waft a few fumes toward you. For some strong chemicals, even sniffing the stopper/cork could be damaging. Ren Tescher (who probably would've went in to the Physical Sciences if he hadn't been plagued with Mathophobia) Pine Island, MN dona nobis pacem ---- Start of Message 128156 ---- From: "Marcus Sly" Date: 2004-01-24 18:07:05 Subject: making pencil gauges Hello Galoots, Firstly, thank you to all the kind people who responded to my introductory email, and made me feel very welcome. Secondly, a question. I'm thinking of making a couple of pencil gauges. I am intending to secure the fence with a brass thumb screw. My mortice gauge has this arrangement and I notice that the thumbscrew screws through a bolt in the fence. My question is: how do I attach such a bolt securely to the fence? Any help much appreciated. - Marcus ---- Start of Message 128157 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-24 13:13:53 Subject: Busted again Hello GG's Busted again. My oldest has taken to running down the hallway yelling "MOM!!! Dad's on the computer doing his stinky tools again!" It's getting harder to sneak ah..um..I mean...squeezin oldtools, but this time I was ready for her. After explaining...nicely...that she was being a tattletail, she immediately exclaimed in predictable fashion "I AM NOT!" Me -"Do you know what a tattletail is? I'll bet if you look it up in the dictionary...you'll find your picture." Well.... Elizabeth being eager to prove me wrong, produced said dictionary, and being quite brite, quickly found the correct page. Of course finding her picture was quite a surprise "HEEEEYYYYYYYYY!!!!" and a little more than she could handle. Unfortunately, this struck a chord with swmbo and I, and we nearly passed out on the floor uncontrolably from laughter... after all.... I AM THE BOSS, and King of my Castle....Uh oh..I gotta go..I hear footsteps coming down tha hall Later Jonathan NYC ---- Start of Message 128158 ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-01-24 13:27:51 Subject: Re: Frey brace de-greasing Andrew wrote....." > I've been using my Frey Spoffard brace and whoever > last owned it greased the head with something that > resembles crude oil. It's thick and very black. .... > I tried to take the head off by unscrewing the two > screws on the underside of the head, but that didn't > seem to do anything... > So, how do I remove the head and collar, and what > should I use to grease it after getting rid of the > crude oil? > __________________________________ I always try Not to take something apart if I don't have to because I have found I am often to stupid to get it back together right, that and it can be hard to find all those little ball bearings and screws that roll into the black hole under my bench . In the past when I had a brace or other Tool that had old congealed grease in it I use some "Gunk" Engine cleaner like you get at the Car parts store. Just a squirt and after a little while it dissolves the old grease.With braces I just squirt it in the oil hole that most have under the pad then turn the pad to allow it to work in.After the Gunk treatment you probably won't need to oil it but maybe in a couple years just use a good gun oil like Break Free or some Cheap surplus LSA......I learned this when I used to sell lots of Chinese Assault Rifles and they came packed in "cosmoline" type heavy grease, I would just spray them down with the Gunk cleaner and then after a wait hose them down in the drive way with hot water, worked like a charm disolving the old grease.......Todd ---- Start of Message 128159 ---- From: "Marcus Sly" Date: 2004-01-24 18:28:11 Subject: Re: making pencil gauges Obviously I meant nut, not bolt in the previous posting. Doh. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Marcus Sly Tel: +44 (O) 1274 589650 email: marcus.sly@b... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Sly" To: "oldtools" Sent: 24 January 2004 18:07 Subject: [oldtools] making pencil gauges > Hello Galoots, > > Firstly, thank you to all the kind people who responded to my introductory > email, and made me feel very welcome. > > Secondly, a question. I'm thinking of making a couple of pencil gauges. I > am intending to secure the fence with a brass thumb screw. My mortice gauge > has this arrangement and I notice that the thumbscrew screws through a bolt > in the fence. My question is: how do I attach such a bolt securely to the > fence? > > Any help much appreciated. > > - Marcus > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 128160 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-01-24 13:38:44 Subject: Re: Frey brace de-greasing > I would just spray them down > with the Gunk cleaner and then after a wait hose them down in the drive way > with hot water, worked like a charm disolving the old grease.......Todd Todd, Is Gunk safe to use on Japanning? Al Perreault Westminster, Ma ---- Start of Message 128161 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-01-24 12:44:05 Subject: Re: Spokeshave Fix Steve, This sounds like a great idea. One question though, you have to empty the cans before cutting them up. Are the contents considered hazardous waste, or can I just pour them down the drain? Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve lineback" > I didn't have any thin metal stock so looking around I found I had more unused metal than I > should. Beer Cans! The real beauty of this is that different shaves require diferent thicknesses > to work right. Beer comes in different guage cans! > Force youself to experiment buy many kinds or beer to get the stock you need. ---- Start of Message 128162 ---- From: T&J Holloway Date: 2004-01-24 11:20:48 Subject: Re: making pencil gauges On Saturday, January 24, 2004, at 10:28 AM, Marcus Sly wrote [corrected version]: >> I'm thinking of making a couple of pencil gauges. I am intending to >> secure the fence with a brass thumb screw. My mortice gauge has this >> arrangement and I notice that the thumbscrew screws through a bolt in >> the fence. My question is: how do I attach such a nut securely to >> the fence? Not sure if I'm visualizing the problem correctly, but that doesn't stop me from suggesting two possible solutions. 1) A brass "threaded insert" might work. These doohickies are used when attaching metal bolt parts to wood. They have course male threads on the outside that screw into a hole in the wood (hole should be bored slightly smaller than OD of threads, so the latter will catch), and normal SAE [or metric, if you're in the metric thread world] female threads on the inside, for receiving the brass thumb screw. I used one of these to make a marking gauge out of cherry scraps some years back, that is still my favorite user. 2) If you can find a square headed nut in the material (brass) and size you need, you could chisel out a square recess in the wood part and fit the nut into it, so that it will receive the thumb screw inserted through from the other side. This mimics the square portion of the shank of a cariage bolt, under the domed round head, that keeps the bolt from turning when the nut is tightened. A hex nut could work for this, but involves carving a more exacting and complicated recess. HTH, Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 128163 ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-01-24 14:24:22 Subject: Re: Frey brace de-greasing Al asked...... > Todd, > > Is Gunk safe to use on Japanning? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- If I had a Mint but greasy no. 1 I honestly probably wouldn't use it, BUT I have used it on common planes and other japanned tools with no trouble.Never left the stuff on them longer then a min. or two, imagine if left soaking it could harm the japanning but the way I used it I never seen any problems.....Todd ---- Start of Message 128164 ---- From: "Jon Endres, PE" Date: 2004-01-24 14:47:26 Subject: RE: butternut/chestnut Bruce, Somebody will correct me if I'm wrong, but you have the pith of the tree and what I know as "juvenile wood"; i.e. the first 10-15 years of growth, that you propose to use. I believe that it won't be nearly as strong as a solid piece riven out of a much larger tree. Of course, it all depends on what you are using it for. A small, light axe or hammer that does not take a beating would probably be OK. OTOH, I have an engineer's hammer (4 lb sledge w/ 16" handle) on which I need to replace the handle at least annually. My survey crew abuses it. Jon E > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Love [mailto:brucelove@c...] > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 9:13 PM > To: oldtools > Subject: Re:[oldtools] butternut/chestnut > I know I have a number of hickory saplings growing along the > woods. But, if I ever need to cut one of the saplings down - > would they be okay for a handle or should the wood really > be split out of a more mature tree? Just curious as it might > give me some incentive to let more grow (great - I am going > to start raising trees now, also....) ---- Start of Message 128165 ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-01-24 14:06:14 Subject: Re: Frey brace de-greasing Andrew: I have two suggestions for you. One of those high pressure washers may work as long as you give it a few shots and not let the wood soak up much water. Another method may be one of those little compact steamer gadgets they advertise on TV. They seem to clean everything. Well . . . on TV at least. There has to be someone in your neighborhood that has one and would be glad to demonstrate. Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana > Andrew wrote....." > > > I've been using my Frey Spoffard brace and whoever > > last owned it greased the head with something that > > resembles crude oil. It's thick and very black. .... > > I tried to take the head off by unscrewing the two > > screws on the underside of the head, but that didn't > > seem to do anything... > > So, how do I remove the head and collar, and what > > should I use to grease it after getting rid of the > > crude oil? > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 128166 ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-01-24 14:41:21 Subject: Re: Is it safe to assume... Hi Ya'll >> 1. What year did they stop marketing chisels with >> the E.A. Berg name? As near as I can tell, when BAHCO became official in 1959 >> >> 2. Is there any period of production that's >> considered junk to be avoided? (cf. Stanley 'blue' >> or 'cordovan' periods for bench planes) Never junk.... the handles went from select birch root to plain birch as the end neared. There doesn't seem to have been any attempt to maintain this classy look. Also, the finish on the steel got sloppier. >> >> 3. thinking back to the 30mm --> 1-3/16" paring >> chisel discussion we had about 15 months ago, is >> there a particular time when they started production >> in metric widths, or have they done that pretty much >> from the beginning? I can say with some certainty that metric widths are all post WWII since there is no mention of same in earlier catalogs. This was about the same time the the Shark-O-Lite stuff appeared. First the yellow, and then the red. WWII plastics technology at work. They're actually great handles, just ugly as sin (the red ones esp). Berg marked SOME of their chisels with both metric and inches sizes. Bruce VS actually has a 30mm marked 1 3/16". The earlier chisels were unmarked.... then marked with model numbers, then with sizes and model numbers. The name Edw. Zinn showed up on a series of chisels that were dedicated to him as a recognition from the Company. I think he was their marketing guru in the 30's. I know he was a big wheel with the company, I can't find the reference right now for sure what his position was. Tom ---- Start of Message 128167 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-24 15:46:59 Subject: Re: What is WITH THIS SLOPE?; ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >I just went through the dozen or so issues of Wood I have from the mid -90's and there isn't a hand tool mention to be found, with the exception of >a couple articles on carving. No scrapers, no planes, no hand cut >dovetails. Just lots of pukey duck scrollsaw plans. Fine Woodworking >has always been good about having hand tool articles and American >Woodworker from that period featured them occasionally but, by and >large, hand tools were ignored in American woodworking magazines up >until a resurgence in the past few years. Lately they've been getting >darned near equal billing with power tools in some magazines and at least >a bit of respect in others. > There is one more magazine that is worth a mention - Furniture and Cabinet Making- http://www.gmcmags.com/ It's not cheap, but there is much galootishness to be found within its pages. No connection etc......... Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 128168 ---- From: Marvin Paisner Date: 2004-01-24 12:50:31 Subject: Re: Auger bit question Jonathan and Galoots, Jonathan Peck wrote: > ..... Knowing what a spur auger bit is, I guess my > question is "what is an extension cut?"......... The 1908 Sears Roebuck Catalogue offers a good selection of auger bits including; Cook's Pattern, "genuine" Russel-Jennings, Irwin Pattern, and various types of Fulton auger bits, the Sears Roebuck house brand. Offered is a set of 13 "C.E. Jennings&Co's No.1 1/2 Single Twist Extension Lip Auger bits". The only type of Fulton bit offered not bearing the "Extension Lip" title is the bottom of the line "standard grade common pattern auger bit" a 3/8 bit selling for 7¢. At 10¢ a bit you can move up to the Fulton "Jennings Pattern Extension Lip Auger Bit". These "extension lip" bits look to be just the usual auger bit, nothing special about them. It might be that "extension cut" and "extension lip" are marketing terms referring to a longer more carefully formed cutting spur when compared to the cheapest bits. The straight shank "micro" cut bits which can be adjusted for hole boring size are called "expansive bits" in the catalogue and in Barlow's book. just some thoughts, Marvin Paisner Kootenay Lake, BC ...where my old vessel the car ferry MV Anscomb (628 tons) sunk in 200 feet of water under the care of her new owners (no injuries). She had sailed Kootenay Lake as a Gov't ferry from 1947 to 2000 with no problems. A sad day. ---- Start of Message 128169 ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-01-24 12:52:37 Subject: Re: Frey brace de-greasing Thanks to everyone with suggestions. I did take the head off but realized that I still couldn't get the collar off as I'd have to cut the mushroomed over metal to get the washer off that was holding on the collar. So, I reassembled it and used Jim's suggestion of some WD40 to dissolve and make more liquid the goop that was in there. A lot of paper towels later, it's much better. Thanks! AAAndrew Back to work in Durham, North Carolina __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128170 ---- From: "Eric Coyle " Date: 2004-01-24 20:30:43 Subject: Design questions - was -Re: Bio - Marcus Sly, and 'hello' So, Richard was asking how strong was that high-back RM chair.... Well, the back of the chair is rock-solid for the most part. You got the really wide bottom cross piece and the back of the seat frame morticed into the uprights, and that elliptical lamination at the top goes through the uprights, which have just enough curve to them for form, without allowing the grain to run out to the point of splittability. The slats in the back are morticed into the wide bottom rail, as well as attached to the back of the seat frame, and there were two methods used to attach them to the elliptical top- morticed into the bottom, or attached to the back. I opted for the attached to the back method, with screws and glue, so failure would have to be by breaking out 8 (albiet short) screws and a good 8 square inches of glue joint as well. Plenty strong methinks, or as they say in the Western parts of Canada, "Skookum" The front corners of the seat frame are where I always have doubts as to strength, and the side and the front pieces are morticed into the two front legs. And that alone is not enough strength You have the dowel stretchers that the side and the front structures in place, but although that gives enough "meat" to hold things parallel, theres lots of stress on a chair as folks move around on em. So inside those front corners and hidden from sight are also rather largish re-inforcing blocks, glued and screwed to help reduce the stress of racking. There always remains the question of the high back cause if you think of it, it is a big lever, and if someone to haul back on that top, whilst a heavy occupant was in the chair, would the amplification of stress cause failure. Perhaps in time, but the design is also not conducive to that happening, ie it's doubtful someone would chose to move the chair in that way, they'd be reaching up to "shoulder height" Chairs of less substantive construction have lasted centuries- course we don't see the ones that fell apart though. Bottom line is the the CRM chair I did was certainly not lesser in strength than any other chair I've seen. Eric in Calgary ---- Start of Message 128171 ---- From: "Eric Coyle " Date: 2004-01-24 20:57:50 Subject: re: making pencil gauges why attach a nut at all, Simply drill and tap the wood with a suitable tap. If you've used hardwood for the fence, this works quite well. Some of the gauges have a little piece of bent metal that fits under the screw and keeps the end of the thumb-screw from marking the beam. And, you can use the same technique to provide a thumbscrew to hold the pencil in place . Eric in Calgary ---- Start of Message 128172 ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-01-24 16:18:44 Subject: Re: Spicers Auction Report Al filed an auction report which included: [snip] > We were looking at an old > MF Lion brace (with patents on the chuck) which was one of the boat > builder's favorites, and he mentioned that he regularly wears them out. > That's right, he wears out Lion braces, regularly. [snip] How do you wear out a brace? Is it the ratcheting mechanism that goes? Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 128173 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-01-24 21:28:02 Subject: More Brace Degreasing Has anyone tried the soak it in kerosene or Todds Gunk on a 2100 type where its all enclosed? Or should I just bite the bullet and follow Georges step by step an taking it apart and cleaning it? Steve ---- Start of Message 128174 ---- From: "John Pesut" Date: 2004-01-24 16:40:30 Subject: Re: Busted again They guys at work did exactly the same thing to me. Only my picture was next to the entry "Curmudgeon". I was so proud I almost cried. Almost. > Well.... Elizabeth being eager to prove me wrong, produced said dictionary, > and being quite brite, quickly found the correct page. Of course finding her > picture was quite a surprise "HEEEEYYYYYYYYY!!!!" and a little more than ---- Start of Message 128175 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-01-24 21:30:59 Subject: St. Roy and the stone age This weeks Woodwright Shop had St. Roy visiting a Cherokee tribe. Part of it was on stone tools they worked wood with. These questions comes up. How many sizes and types did they Need? How many back ups? How many times did one guy get bashed with a stone ax cause he liked Ugs axes and the basher liked Oops? Did the stone age Martin invent the hat? Was their Blood and Gore as bloody and gory as I think? How long did it take Paddy's ancestor to start saying only a bug coated stone feels right? Steve ---- Start of Message 128176 ---- From: "John Pesut" Date: 2004-01-24 16:45:32 Subject: Re: More Brace Degreasing Kerosene has worked for me in past on just this problem. I have soaked the palm grip in a bucket of kerosene for days. Once I even used one of those cans of canned air to help blast kerosene into the oil hole. Worked great. When it was done it spun like new. I'm a big fan of kero for cleaning. It has never ruined wood or finish on me. Later, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve lineback" To: "oldtools" Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 4:28 PM Subject: [oldtools] More Brace Degreasing > Has anyone tried the soak it in kerosene or Todds Gunk on a 2100 type where its all enclosed? Or should I just bite the bullet and follow Georges step by step an taking it apart and cleaning it? > Steve > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 128177 ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-01-24 17:05:34 Subject: Re: Galootaclaus sent something special - thank you! Charlie wrote: > 3. My Galootaclaus gift shows up, specially carried up the long > driveway by our mail carrier. > > Wife & MIL looked on in mild interest as I cut open the box and read the > note from my anonymous Galoot buddy in Santa Cruz, CA, but they had > nowhere near the appreciation I had for what was inside ... a Driggs & > Warner / Phoenix Factory molding plane. Woodies from this maker are the > only tools I'll readily admit to 'collecting'. > > > Charlie Driggs That is just TOO friggin cool. What a great gift, as Charlie has traced his heritage to this maker. I want to thank Michael and Greg and the rest of the BAGS who made the exchange happen this year. When the call went out it was our West Coast brethern who dropped their quiche and chardonnay and stepped up in the best tradition of Galoot volunteers. Thanks again. Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 128178 ---- From: wayne.a.anderson@a... Date: 2004-01-24 22:09:53 Subject: 12-1/4 scraper handle Is there anyone out there who would be willing to turn a handle for me? I have a Stanley 12-1/4 that is missing the handle. I do believe that the handle is identical to the handle on the 12 and 12-1/2 scraper except for the distance between mount holes. I have several rosewood blanks and would provide this. Please ping me if you would be interested. I would of course pay for it, and you could also keep the extra rosewood. I have a lathe, but it is in pieces on a shelf in the garage, and will be staying there for a while. TIA. Wayne Anderson FOYBIPM ---- Start of Message 128179 ---- From: Thomas Conroy Date: 2004-01-24 14:18:39 Subject: Re: Tote finishing question Ed Minch wrote: "Nothing but tongue oil, a couple of coats, with the last coat put on with 600 grit sandpaper...." Sort of spit-and-polish, then. Surely the original "varnish" is shellac? At least, IIRC from when I repaired my totes (#3,4,5,6,8, mostly Type 9-10, I think) rubbing with steel wool and alcohol reamalgamated areas nicely, and rubbed-on shellac over that went on without a problem. Or maybe I'm just editing problems out of my memory. Tom Conroy Berkeley __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128180 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-24 15:07:49 Subject: Re: 12-1/4 scraper handle I have a #12 with a nice handle I can use for a pattern, and I have the wherewithal to do it. So unless somebody else has already volunteered, send the rosewood to me. I'll turn you a right purty handle! On Saturday, January 24, 2004, at 02:09 PM, wayne.a.anderson@a... wrote: > Is there anyone out there who would be willing to turn a handle for > me? I > have a Stanley 12-1/4 that is missing the handle. I do believe that the > handle is identical to the handle on the 12 and 12-1/2 scraper except > for the > distance between mount holes. I have several rosewood blanks and would > provide this. Please ping me if you would be interested. I would of > course > pay for it, and you could also keep the extra rosewood. I have a > lathe, but > it is in pieces on a shelf in the garage, and will be staying there > for a > while. TIA. > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 128181 ---- From: "William West" Date: 2004-01-24 23:07:34 Subject: A public thanks to Bill Ghio and more WTT/WTB- Bedrock 603 Lever cap to trade Just wanted to thank Bill Ghio in this forum for setting me up nicely with a NICE Stanley No. 4 bed, and also to grovel for more plane parts. I find myself in need of 2 lever caps, a No. 3 and No. 4-5 size. Both must be NO LOGO early types, chip, rust and crack free. Also need a low knob for a No. 4. Also needs to be in good shape. I have a real nice "B" casting No. 603 lever cap, with "Stanley Bed Rock" in rectangle on it, to trade. Any type of trade/ buy deal is amenable to me, I am just interested in completing these planes for my own coll... I mean, group of users. - Wm. West ---- Start of Message 128182 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-01-24 19:38:04 Subject: Re: butternut/chestnut > Somebody will correct me if I'm wrong, but you have the pith of the tree and > what I know as "juvenile wood"; i.e. the first 10-15 years of growth, that > you propose to use. I believe that it won't be nearly as strong as a solid > piece riven out of a much larger tree. That is basically what I thought, but I figured it was worth asking...I am often suprised how wrong my assumptions are on stuff like this. For now, I'll keep my eyes open for the occasional downed branch. Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 128183 ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-01-24 18:49:15 Subject: Re: St. Roy and the stone age My wife for an anthropology course learned to knap flint and obsidian. I got pieces to play with. Amazingly effective as knives and scarapers. If Hock would just get off his silly steel fad, we could have some real smoother blades.... John Steve lineback wrote: >This weeks Woodwright Shop had St. Roy visiting a Cherokee tribe. Part >of it was on stone tools they worked wood with. These questions comes >up. How many sizes and types did they Need? > >H > > ---- Start of Message 128184 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-01-24 20:35:10 Subject: Neander Norm Galooti, I just finished watching the tape of this afternoon's Norm show. Unbelievable. He was making a stand alone wooden screen with raised panels. When he got to the point where he was installing the hinges, he 1) stood two sections of the screen on edge and then clamped them together, 2) marked the screw locations with a punch, 3) drilled pilot holes with his c*rdless dr*ll, and 4) drove home the screws using a YANKEE screw driver. I was so surprised I almost spilled the contents of the can I was emptying (to get aluminum for spokeshave shims). Can you imagine it - Neander Norm! Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ---- Start of Message 128185 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-24 22:48:14 Subject: Re: Busted again >><><><><>snip><><><><><> >The guys at work did exactly the same thing to me. >Only my picture was next to the entry "Curmudgeon". So, I'm not to proud to admit to having to look up curmudgeon. Of course, as everybody else surely knows, a curmudgeon is churlish. So onward to page 241. ...Right next to churlish is the a picture of a chuck. Pop quiz: A chuck is............ A) to toss; throw with a quick motion, usually a short distance B) the cut of beef between the neck and the shoulder blade C) a device for centering and clamping work in a lathe D) a device for holding a drill bit E) food; provisions If you answered either C or D above, your picture is on page 541 next to "Galoot" Later Jonathan ---- Start of Message 128186 ---- From: Michael campbell Date: 2004-01-24 23:34:22 Subject: Re: Neander Norm Frank wrote: > Galooti, > > I just finished watching the tape of this afternoon's Norm show. > Unbelievable. He was making a stand alone wooden screen with raised > panels. When he got to the point where he was installing the hinges, > he 1) stood two sections of the screen on edge and then clamped them > together, 2) marked the screw locations with a punch, 3) drilled pilot > holes with his c*rdless dr*ll, and 4) drove home the screws using a > YANKEE screw driver. I was so surprised I almost spilled the contents > of the can I was emptying (to get aluminum for spokeshave shims). Can > you imagine it - Neander Norm! I've seen him use the Yankee on a couple episodes. he even uses a, dare I say it, plane... now and again. ---- Start of Message 128187 ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-01-24 22:08:46 Subject: first blister planning and I like it.. It's like the first time you make 2 thou shavings from the plane you just = sharpened and tuned up or your joint fits the first time (haven't had THAT = happen yet).. Been working on a purple heart butterfly jewelry box for some months now = (mostly electrons), but have done all the surface planing with No. 5, No 4, and = an assortment of "crappy" block planes (no adjustable mouths yet). Managed to = joint one or two edges to glue ups. I needed to take about a 1/8" off a 9/4 = chunk to match up to another. The dial indicator says I'm within 3 thousands. A photo of the pine prototype and a piece of the purpleheart is here: http://arwomack01.home.att.net/images/protype_butterfly.jpg I really like the surface the planes leave, and as I learn to tune the better = and use them, it just gets better! Epson Inkjet Printer FAQ: http://welcome.to/epson-inkjet ---- Start of Message 128188 ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-01-24 22:16:03 Subject: re: St. Roy and the stone age >> My wife for an anthropology course learned to knap flint and >> obsidian. =20 I got pieces to play with. Amazingly effective as >> knives and=20 scarapers. If Hock would just get off his silly steel >> fad, we could=20 have some real smoother blades.... Obsidian was the sharpest material known to man, might still be, taking an edge = finer than the best surgical scaple. Wonder if being so sharp would help = prevent chipping. Alan Epson Inkjet Printer FAQ: http://welcome.to/epson-inkjet ---- Start of Message 128189 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-01-25 11:55:08 Subject: Re: Spokeshave Fix Frank In regard to this product I am a certified disposal site. Simple send me the product with return postage and the empties will be returned after I properly dispose of the contents. Steve ---- Start of Message 128190 ---- From: OldTools@a... Date: 2004-01-25 07:32:16 Subject: Re: WoodWorks 2004 Ontario, CA The WoodWorks 2004 show will be in Ontario, CA next weekend and Phoenix a week later. The one in Springfield, MA was great and it was good to see many of you. You west coast guys should turn out for the show, well worth the trip. I will be there with the Fine Tool Journal and Lie Nielsen tools at special prices. Come by and say HI. Clarence Ontario Convention Center Friday 1 to 7, Sat 10 to 6 and Sun 10 to 4. Arizona State Fairgrounds. Same hours. Clarence Blanchard The Fine Tool Journal Brown Auction Services 27 Fickett Road Pownal ME 04069 www.finetoolj.com For Lie-Nielsen Tools www.finetoolj.com/ln ---- Start of Message 128191 ---- From: Steve and Dianne Noe Date: 2004-01-25 08:14:45 Subject: Re: Neander Norm [snip per the fabulous FAQ} >> drove home the screws using a >> YANKEE screw driver. I was so surprised I almost spilled the contents >> of the can I was emptying (to get aluminum for spokeshave shims). Can >> you imagine it - Neander Norm! >=20 >=20 > I've seen him use the Yankee on a couple episodes. he even uses a, dare = I say > it, plane... now and again. On an "Ask TOH" episode, I saw Tom Silva (the general contractor guy) pull out a jack plane (looked like a #5 Satanly, Paddy), in order to trim a replacement 2x4 flush with a window-sill, when he was reparing some dry-rot= . Didn't say much, except, "here's the easiest and best way to do this." If a Galoot were to check the admirable archives, I think there's a post by Todd Hughes where he tells about encountering the producers of those shows at a flea-market. IIRC, when Todd asked why they didn't show more hand-too= l use, the reply was "give us a million dollars to underwrite the show." Maybe if we passed the hat.... Steve Noe, in Indianapolis dandsnoe@m... Juicy red meat is not bad for you... Fuzzy green meat, now THAT=B9S bad for you ---- Start of Message 128192 ---- From: Steve and Dianne Noe Date: 2004-01-25 08:21:07 Subject: Re: St. Roy and the stone age >>> [snip]If Hock would just get off his silly steel fad, we could have >>> some real smoother blades.... > > Obsidian was the sharpest material known to man, might still be, > taking an edge finer than the best surgical scaple. Wonder if being so > sharp would help prevent chipping. > Unfortunately, no. Glass knives are often used in slicing specimens for transmission electron microsopy. They don't last all that long, but they are really cheap to make, so nobody much cares. Except for the bother, of course. :^) Gunstockers will often use a shard of glass to scrape down a particularly tricky piece of tiger maple, or to get a ramrod "just right." I think they'll agree that the glass doesn't last all that long. Steve Noe, in Indianapolis dandsnoe@m... Il y a en Angleterre soixante sectes religieuses differentes, et une seule sauce ---- Start of Message 128193 ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-01-25 09:12:17 Subject: Re: butternut/chestnut Bruce, Sapling would be perfect for handles. In fact the highest grade of Japanese chisel is fitted with a handle made of limb wood. Ken Bruce Love wrote: >Jonathon provided a nice summary of Hickory trees. I was >intrigued by... > > > >>Shagbark Hickory >>The wood is >>hard, strong, tough and elastic, and is used in handles for >>tools and in athletic equipment. The wood also makes >>excellent firewood, and often is used in smoking meat. As >>with other edible nuts, squirrels compete with humans for >>this fruit. >> >> > >And the squirrels bury the nuts all around your yard so that in >the spring you have little hickory trees growing all around. > >My property (which is not too large) borders a large wooded area >so a small part of my yard is woods. I have a couple of >good size Shagbarks in my yard. Therein, is my naive question. > >I know I have a number of hickory saplings growing along the >woods. But, if I ever need to cut one of the saplings down - >would they be okay for a handle or should the wood really >be split out of a more mature tree? Just curious as it might >give me some incentive to let more grow (great - I am going >to start raising trees now, also....) > > >Bruce Love >Pipersville, PA >(who is lamenting the fact that he won't be attending any portion >of the MWTCA meeting in York, PA this weekend - just too many >commitments right now....) > > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > ---- Start of Message 128194 ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-01-25 09:23:16 Subject: Re: Tote finishing question My favorite finish for anything but especially for tool handles is Tru-Oil. Being designed for gun stocks it is meant to be handled. It dries ready for second coat in 2 hours. I use 3 or 4 coats for my handles, steel wool between coats will make plenty of shine for tool handles. This drying fast allowed me to remember on 12-24 that I had forgot to make a birds eye maple bangle bracelet for my wife's Christmas. Shaped by hand and finished with 5 coats and in the Christmas stocking Ken Jim Thompson wrote: > I used to use clear lacquer on totes, and with wet sanding with very > fine paper followed by #0000 steel wool followed by wax you get a > delicious feeling tote. Unfortunately the finish is hard and easily > damaged. I now do not put any finish on my totes at all. I just buff > them with tripoli compound after fine sanding and get the same finish > which is easy to repair. Rosewood likes wax. > > On Friday, January 23, 2004, at 01:42 PM, Jonathan Peck wrote: > >> >> The question: >> The tote is silky smooth to the touch...really amazingly >> silky smooth. After close examination I found a well >> executed repair, which leads me to believe that the tote was >> refinished, but I couldn't tell from looking at it >> (excellent job?).. Does anybody know what this finish could >> be? It's different in texture than any other tote I have, >> and very desirable. >> > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > ---- Start of Message 128195 ---- From: "George Langford" Date: 2004-01-25 09:52:50 Subject: Re: Frey [Fray] brace de-greasing Hello Galoots ! After a couple hundred greasy, rusty, paint-covered braces, here's my cleaning method: 1. Pick off the paint spots with an extremely dull three- cornered file that was once a scraper; or with an equally dull ink eraser with a broken rosewood handle; or with a generic and extraordinarily dull wood chisel that could probably pass an airport inspection. 2. Apply elbow grease and 000 or 0000 steel wool to remove the red rust and caked human sweat. This works on lacquered handles, too; the lacquer is harder than the sweat and caked grease, thank goodness. Lots of elbow grease. 3. Scrape off the crusty rust spots with the three cornered file; once you get the knack of it, the three cornered file can be used from the get-go in order to skip past a good deal of the elbow grease and steel wool. Avoid scratching the metal above all else. The aim is to remove the little bumps that ruin the feel and appearance of that lovely blue-black patina of a well used tool. 4. Go back to the 000 or 0000 steel wool and elbow grease to even out the patina. 5. Apply lubricating oil sparingly to the wrist handle's bearings and manipulate the handle until it turns freely. This may take a while, as the back-and-forth motion moves the oil very slowly in that long, annular, grease-filled space. It may also be rust filled. If so, it may be necessary to glue some soft pine blocks onto the wrist handle so that it can be forced to turn by clamping the blocks in a vise. If you haveanother brace and a suitable bit, be sure to bore out the pine block to the diameter of the wrist handle before splitting the block and gluing it to the wrist handle. If the brace is quite rare, skip this step and wear cotton gloves when using the brace for any reason so you won't get blisters. In case the brace is destined for serious use, the very last resort is to split the wrist handle, de-rust the bow, apply grease to the bow, and then glue the wrist halves back together on the bow. If one uses sufficoient grease to fill the space between the wrist handle's bore and the bow, then the glue won't fill that space instead, and you'll be able to get it moving again after the glue dries a little easier. 6. Lubricate the bearings of the cup handle and work it back and forth until it spins freely. I also avoid having to disassemble these parts unless I have determined before- hand from the patent drawings what's going on in there and that I can reassemble the pieces successfully. 7. Heat the brace until it is warm all over - with a hair dryer or space heater - to drive off any condensed water and then coat liberally with tung oil. Recoat the wood until it stops absorbing the tung oil and then wipe off the excess tung oil as thoroughly as possible. Let the oil cure for about two weeks - whereupon it passes the asthma test in my household - before bringing the brace into polite company. Do not store any of the oil-soaked paper towels or rags, as they will spontaneously combust if kept crumpled up in a confined space with access to air. I put mine in a Ziplock bag, well squeezed before sealing and then placed in an outdoor container. Note: Be sure _not_ to apply the tung oil without first lubricating the revolving parts of the brace. DAMHIKT. I even clean the crud out of the chuck - it's often a pleasant surprise to find out how enterprising the maker of the brace was in getting around other makers' patents. The ink eraser is quite handy for cleaning the threads. I don't work very hard on the chuck shell interior, as very little of the crud ends up embedded there. The chuck exterior often holds some very important information, as the makers preferred to apply there ID and patent markings there over the stamping of the bows. Perhaps that has some origins in the subcontracting practices in those bygone days ... Best regards, George Langford in chilly SE PA georgel@v... http://www.georgesbasement/braces/ ---- Start of Message 128196 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-25 07:43:10 Subject: Re: butternut/chestnut On Sunday, January 25, 2004, at 06:12 AM, Ken Pendergrass wrote: > Bruce, > Sapling would be perfect for handles. In fact the highest grade of > Japanese chisel is fitted with a handle made of limb wood. > Ken > I have long used and advocated using limbs for handles. I collect suitable limbs from trees that have interesting grain. I turn them to cylinders a little bigger than what I want the finished size to be, then seal the ends thoroughly and store them for at least a year. Then I can rough turn the handle and wait a few weeks for that to stabilize, then finish the handle. If you can find a suitable limb that has been dead for only about a year, the drying process is speeded up. I find that I like branches with enough diameter to yield heartwood when I am finished, or at least mostly heartwood, as the sapwood often makes a striking contrast. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 128197 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-25 07:48:31 Subject: News & Events > > http://www.salinascalifornian.com/news/stories/20040124/localnews/ > 287827.html > I noticed this announcement in the Salinas CA newspaper. Galoots in the Bay area might want to look at the article. Someone is showing a collection of old tools in Monterey. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 128198 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-01-25 10:55:45 Subject: Re: Spicers Auction Report GG's/Steve, The boat builder showed us a MF Lion brace which hade a very wobbly head. The bearings appeared to be severly worn. I presumed this is what he was refering to. I guess I was just so overwhelmed with the experience, that I lost my head and forgot to ask, "Worn out how?" Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, Massachusetts > Al filed an auction report which included: > [snip] > > We were looking at an old > > MF Lion brace (with patents on the chuck) which was one of the boat > > builder's favorites, and he mentioned that he regularly wears them out. > > That's right, he wears out Lion braces, regularly. [snip] > > How do you wear out a brace? Is it the ratcheting mechanism that goes? > > Regards, > Steve > ---- Start of Message 128199 ---- From: sepost@i... (Scott Post) Date: 2004-01-25 12:21:21 Subject: Left handed veneer saw? All the veneer saws I've seen on the market are bent the wrong way. Is there such an animal as a left handed veneer saw? If so, where can I get one? Since I already know the answer I'll go ahead and ask the inevitable followup question. Has anyone ever made a veneer cutter similar to this one: http://www.fine-tools.com/G302220.htm Seems a fella could make one a whole lot cheaper than they're selling for and end up with Jen-U-Wine wood instead of plastic. If you own or have made one, would you mind snapping a disassembled picture for me? Thanks. -- Scott Post sepost@i... http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/ Who has a box of burl headed his way... ---- Start of Message 128200 ---- From: "danny kaye" Date: 2004-01-25 17:27:47 Subject: old spokeshave just picked up a nice old wooden shave from the local antique market for £2.50 gloat however the tangs on the blade are wll stuck in the wood, they look rusted in, or maybe it is corrosion from a steel/wood reaction, I tried tapping the end with a small hammer but only one moved, any ideas for releasing the other end? danny ---- Start of Message 128201 ---- From: "danny kaye" Date: 2004-01-25 17:31:51 Subject: Re: Neander Norm on the latest series of this old house norm built a gazebo using a bandsaw, handtools and nothing else, when steve commented norm said "there's no shame in using handtools" danny ---- Start of Message 128202 ---- From: Gary Roberts Date: 2004-01-25 12:58:08 Subject: Spicer auction price needed Hi folks Did anyone who attended the Spicer auction remember the sale price on that patented combination square bevel plane level? I couldn't make it down to the auction unfortunately. I don't see many of this beastie show up too often and I like to keep track of the selling price cause I have one that I picked up years ago. thanks Gary -- Gary Roberts Dedham, MA...Antique tools, Old Books, Art Pottery, Hong Kong cinema, what else is there? ---- Start of Message 128203 ---- From: Gary Roberts Date: 2004-01-25 13:07:38 Subject: Re: Frey brace de-greasing At 1:38 PM -0500 1/24/04, Alan Perreault wrote: > > I would just spray them down >> with the Gunk cleaner and then after a wait hose them down in the drive >way >> with hot water, worked like a charm disolving the old grease.......Todd > >Todd, > >Is Gunk safe to use on Japanning? > >Al Perreault >Westminster, Ma Al from experience, you have to make sure the stuff is japanning and that it was applied properly. I've had Ohio and Millers Falls planes suffer from the depradations of Gunk application. Particularly the Ohio maroon planes. I've used gunk to quick loosen crud stuck in corners and surfaces. Spray it on and rinse fast, dry and wax immediately. If its a valuable item I've hit it with Gunk, rinsed it in water, dunked it in alcholol (which evaporates fast) and then dried it with paper towels followed by wax. Dont know for sure if the ETOH dunk is absolutely necessary.. its something I picked up from a metal conservationist once. Gary -- Gary Roberts Dedham, MA...Antique tools, Old Books, Art Pottery, Hong Kong cinema, what else is there? ---- Start of Message 128204 ---- From: "Gary Katsanis" Date: 2004-01-25 13:09:26 Subject: Glass (was St. Roy and the stone age) I suspect that obsidian, being stone, would have different sharpening and wear characteristics than glass. Does anyone know which *type* of glass would be best for scrapers or knives? Gary K Close to Buffalo NY --snip, snip-- >> scarapers. If Hock would just get off his silly >>steel fad, we could have some real smoother blades.... Obsidian was the sharpest material known to man, might still be, taking an edge finer than the best surgical scaple. --snip, snip-- Unfortunately, no. Glass knives are often used in slicing specimens for transmission electron microsopy. They don't last all that long, but they --snip, snip-- Gunstockers will often use a shard of glass to scrape down a particularly tricky piece of tiger maple, --snip, snip-- ---- Start of Message 128205 ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-01-25 13:10:29 Subject: Re: St. Roy and the stone age I won't take up any more bandwidth with this than necessary, but if there's a galoot poet laureate, it is surely Gary Snyder. And all of this discussion of obsidian and old tools reminded me irresistibly of this: http://whitepebble.typepad.com/white_pebble/2003/12/above_pate_vall.html A wonderful January-shop day to you all, N ---- Start of Message 128206 ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-01-25 12:11:32 Subject: Re: butternut/chestnut I think it depends on the species. Walnut, for instance, has a pronounced "pith" or a sort of vein with widely spaced cell walls running down the center of the trunk and some limbs. Apple, despite seeming to me a sappy wood because of the number of "wet" sprouts I prune each year deems devoid of this center pith. So does ash. I am not sure of hickory, but I cannot recall seeing any pith in a lot of hickory split for fireplace use. The ash and fruit wood chisel handles on this page were mostly from branches, the maple and walnut were from quarters. http://www.jhml.org/tools regards, John Lederer Bruce Love wrote: >>Somebody will correct me if I'm wrong, but you have the pith of the tree and >>what I know as "juvenile wood"; i.e. the first 10-15 years of growth, that >>you propose to use. I believe that it won't be nearly as strong as a solid >>piece riven out of a much larger tree. >> >> > >That is basically what I thought, but I figured it was worth asking...I am >often suprised how wrong my assumptions are on stuff like this. For now, I'll >keep my eyes open for the occasional downed branch. > > >Bruce Love >Pipersville, PA > > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > ---- Start of Message 128207 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-01-25 13:29:56 Subject: Re: Neander Norm >on the latest series of this old house norm built a gazebo using a bandsaw, >handtools and nothing else, when steve commented norm said "there's no shame >in using handtools" I recently saw Norm use a spokeshave (blue metal one if I recall correctly) when working on a post for a porch (or something like that) on one of the This Old House incarnations. It was funny because Steve joked with him about it "couldn't find a power tool for this job, huh Norm?" SWMBO even laughed at it, it almost seemed like an inside joke between them... At least as of late, Norm does does point out where handtools COULD be used. I remember recently he was putting some hinges on a cabinet and pointed out that he COULD make the little cutout for the hinges with a sharp chisel, but...instead he used some jig and his router (which seemed to me like MUCH more work). Based on earlier comments on this list reportedly from the show's producers - I often interpret such comments as "I would go ahead use a chisel here - but the producers want to use a power tool whenever possible so......" The GITs like it when I watch Norm because I always yell at him. "Argh! Why are you using your router for those dovetails! Where's your saw?" "Oh no, not more biscuits!" "Put away that Poly-finish and get some Shellac!" The GITs find this quite hilarious. (and to those few Norm-fans on this list, remember this is all in fun - the main point being that to do this I do watch Norm sometimes...) Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 128208 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-01-25 13:48:06 Subject: Re: Frey brace de-greasing Gary/GG's, I am always concerned that such an aggressive chemical application might find it's way into cracks and under jappaning, and not be rinsed off. For those porch members who have used such techniques, how long have you used it, and have the tools been in your possesion ever since? I'm interested in long term experience. Al Perreault Westminster, Ma > Al > > from experience, you have to make sure the stuff is japanning and > that it was applied properly. I've had Ohio and Millers Falls planes > suffer from the depradations of Gunk application. Particularly the > Ohio maroon planes. I've used gunk to quick loosen crud stuck in > corners and surfaces. Spray it on and rinse fast, dry and wax > immediately. If its a valuable item I've hit it with Gunk, rinsed it > in water, dunked it in alcholol (which evaporates fast) and then > dried it with paper towels followed by wax. Dont know for sure if the > ETOH dunk is absolutely necessary.. its something I picked up from a > metal conservationist once. > > Gary ---- Start of Message 128209 ---- From: "Gary Katsanis" Date: 2004-01-25 14:18:19 Subject: Re: Glass (was St. Roy and the stone age) Someone indicated to me that obsidian *is* glass. Live and learn! Gary K ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Katsanis" To: "oldtools" Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 1:09 PM Subject: [oldtools] Glass (was St. Roy and the stone age) > I suspect that obsidian, being stone, would have > different sharpening and wear characteristics than > glass. Does anyone know which *type* of glass > would be best for scrapers or knives? --snip, snip-- ---- Start of Message 128210 ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" Date: 2004-01-25 11:22:26 Subject: Re: News & Events On 25 Jan 2004 at 7:48, Jim Thompson wrote: > > > > http://www.salinascalifornian.com/news/stories/20040124/localnews/ > > 287827.html > > > > I noticed this announcement in the Salinas CA newspaper. Galoots in > the Bay area might want to look at the article. Someone is showing a > collection of old tools in Monterey. And conveniently, it says it will be on display through March. This suggests that it will still be there for the PAST tool swap meet in Spreckles, right next door to Salinas. Yet another reason to go. March 27th this year. See you all there, Ken Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404 http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm ---- Start of Message 128211 ---- From: JPagona@a... Date: 2004-01-25 14:31:45 Subject: Re: Jointing Technique (was Jointer (trying) plane advice wanted) > > one another. If the joint needed tuned (they always did) I'd then > > have to clamp them back together - at which time I didn't have a > > hope of realigning them well so was essentially starting I don't understand what is so hard about aligning the edges of the two boards to be flush by feel. That's how I do it. I'll tighten the vise or clamp just barely tight enough to hold the two boards, and then I'll tap the high board with my hand until it is flush with the other board. David Sobel Tampa, FL ---- Start of Message 128212 ---- From: Jack Kamishlian Date: 2004-01-25 14:41:09 Subject: Re: Left handed veneer saw? How about mat cutters, as in picture framing? They have to do essentially the same thing, and they may come cheaper. Cheers, Jack in Endwell, NY 1/25/04 9:21:21 AM, sepost@i... (Scott Post) wrote: >Since I already know the answer I'll go ahead and ask the inevitable >followup question. Has anyone ever made a veneer cutter similar to >this one: > > http://www.fine-tools.com/G302220.htm > >Seems a fella could make one a whole lot cheaper than they're selling for >and end up with Jen-U-Wine wood instead of plastic. If you own or have >made one, would you mind snapping a disassembled picture for me? > ---- Start of Message 128213 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-01-25 19:50:05 Subject: re: old spokeshave Danny Support the shave except under the stuck tang, put a piece of wood on the tang and tap on the wood with the hammer. They will break once in a while doing this but not very often. If you can't get the blade out to sharpen it its not much good anyhow. Steve ---- Start of Message 128214 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-01-25 15:15:45 Subject: Re: Neander Norm Hi Danny & All, Danny mentions a comment Steve made to Norm on the "latest series" of This Old House. Actually, Steve isn't on the show any more and hasn't been for several months. Per the This Old House web site, he left by mutual agreement of he and the producers to pursue other interests. My interpretation - he was canned. No real relevance to anything - just a bit of data in case the shows you're watching might not be a recent as you think. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 128215 ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-01-25 14:19:10 Subject: Re: Neander Norm GG's It isn't at all unusual that Norm's producers like to see him use power tools. Just look at who sponsors the show. If the guys that sell shellac would pop for some big bucks . . . Norm might just use it . . . . once and awhile. Maybe. It's simply a matter of money and that's the reality. All in all, many of us wish we had his knowledge and skills. And that doesn't take anything away from Roy Underhilll at all. He does some pretty neat things with simple hand tools. Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Love" To: "oldtools" Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 10:29 AM Subject: Re:[oldtools] Neander Norm > >on the latest series of this old house norm built a gazebo using a bandsaw, > >handtools and nothing else, when steve commented norm said "there's no shame > >in using handtools" > > I recently saw Norm use a spokeshave (blue metal one if I recall correctly) > when working on a post for a porch (or something like that) on one of the This > Old House incarnations. It was funny because Steve joked with him about it > "couldn't find a power tool for this job, huh Norm?" SWMBO even laughed at > it, it almost seemed like an inside joke between them... > > At least as of late, Norm does does point out where handtools COULD be used. > I remember recently he was putting some hinges on a cabinet and pointed out > that he COULD make the little cutout for the hinges with a sharp chisel, > but...instead he used some jig and his router (which seemed to me like MUCH > more work). Based on earlier comments on this list reportedly from the show's > producers - I often interpret such comments as "I would go ahead use a chisel > here - but the producers want to use a power tool whenever possible so......" > > The GITs like it when I watch Norm because I always yell at him. "Argh! Why > are you using your router for those dovetails! Where's your saw?" "Oh no, > not more biscuits!" "Put away that Poly-finish and get some Shellac!" The > GITs find this quite hilarious. (and to those few Norm-fans on this list, > remember this is all in fun - the main point being that to do this I do watch > Norm sometimes...) > > > Bruce Love > Pipersville, PA > > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 128216 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-01-25 12:59:57 Subject: Re: Neander Norm --- "Richard J. Hucker" wrote: GG's It isn't at all unusual that Norm's producers like to see him use power tools. Just look at who sponsors the show. If the guys that sell shellac would pop for some big bucks . . . Hello Colonel and GGs: It proves the BS of the "non-commercial" claims that PBS makes. My PBS station, (which shows the Woodwright only once in a while, half the time without notice) shows actual commercials now---one in particular for VW---there are rumors of a big Enron-style scandal in the works. Maybe galoots could sponsor Roy---what about an all-handtool network? With so many channels, there must be one all rusty and buried somewhere. oh, and the PNTC rules; GAM in Seattle __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128217 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-01-25 16:02:34 Subject: Re: Neander Norm Bob Nelson wrote: > Danny mentions a comment Steve made to Norm on the "latest series" of > This Old House. Actually, Steve isn't on the show any more and hasn't > been for several months. Per the This Old House web site, he left by > mutual agreement of he and the producers to pursue other interests. My > interpretation - he was canned. GG My company sponsors the local annual home show in Wilmington DE. In September of '02 we got the EPA to co-sponsor with us for the Energy Star program, and they paid Steve to spend the day promoting Energy Star in a video he made for them, and to sign autographs on TOH magazines between shows. He wore the same orange shirt in person that he wears in the video. Steve used to be a long distance sailor, and so am I, so by chance I had read a book he wrote 15 years ago about learning to navigate between islands in Polynesia with no instruments - looking at the wave patterns, sea birds, sun and clouds and landing spot on at an island 500 miles distant!! He is not a very good writer, but I enjoyed his stories about the local people on the small island, and yes he repaired boats with hand tools! During the home show, his 2 (lovely young female) handlers had his time apportioned to the minute all day - do this Steve, do that Steve, eat this sandwich Steve, etc. - but I got about 6-8 minutes to talk to him. Mentioned the book and he was truly amazed to meet someone who had read it - he appears to be my kind of guy. Told me he was selected for the host position at an open audition that he attended on a lark. He got $15,000 plus expenses to spend 7 hours at the home show, and he was doing a lot of that for the EPA. When I asked if he still had a boat, he said that he and his wife and kids live on an island 1/2 mile off the main coast - THEIR island - so he has a few p*w*r boats to get on and off, and that he would like to build himself a sailboat in the near future. I don't think he was canned. My bet is that he left because the EPA is giving him enough dough and he does not have to work very much anymore (see "own island off the coast of Maine" and "$15,000 for 7 hours" above). He also has a paid position with an energy efficiency group in New York State, and probably others. I know I would rather watch him endorse something than Blob Vile-a. Sorry if this is off topic, but we talk about the show enough that I thought this would be interesting. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 128218 ---- From: dedhorse@d... Date: 2004-01-25 16:26:35 Subject: Re: Frey brace de-greasing Alan worried..... > > I am always concerned that such an aggressive chemical application > might find it's way into cracks and under japanning, and not be rinsed > off. For those porch members who have used such techniques, how long > have you used it, and have the tools been in your possession ever > since? I'm interested in long term experience. -------------------------------------------------------------- I have a very early Stanley no. 4, first Lateral model if I remember right , when I got it someone had greased it heavy and wraped it in an old ,[1900's] newspaper and put it away.After scaping off the paper I hit it with the Gunk and then cleaned it off using hot soapy water with a tooth brush and rinshing in real hot water so it will dry fast like I do with regular planes.The gunk washed off and disolved the grease.I feel I could probably done it with just the dish soap and water..But boy it would have been a job.Afterwards it came out that the plane had about 98% of it's original jappaning , cleaned the sides and blade up with a sanding block and the plane turned out to be in near mint condition and no one could ever tell it was cleaned.This has been about 4 or 5 years now I guess and don't think I have ever touched the plane again and it shows no signs of any the Jappaning lifting or etc.I think if it was going to have any problims it would have had them by now but still I Can't guarantee how it will look in 100 years but I think it will still be OK ...I do tend not to worry to much about stuff that far down the road as I sort of think I won't be around anyway....Todd ------------------------------------------------------ This message was sent using Delmarva Online's Webmail. http://www.dmv.com/ ---- Start of Message 128219 ---- From: Timothy Collins Date: 2004-01-25 16:35:48 Subject: Re: Glass (was St. Roy and the stone age) True obsidian is a glass. Edges in glass (obsidian or window pane) are "sharpened" by knapping off a flake, which leaves a sharper edge than you can get with any abrasive type of sharpening. Any glass will work for a scraper, but you usually get curved edges, and its sharp on all sides. (try googling "knapping" for more) tim I suspect that obsidian, being stone, would have different sharpening and wear characteristics than glass. Does anyone know which *type* of glass would be best for scrapers or knives? ---- Start of Message 128220 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-01-25 17:09:22 Subject: Re: Frey brace de-greasing >.This has been about 4 or 5 years now I > guess and don't think I have ever touched the plane again and it shows no signs > of any the Jappaning lifting or etc.I think if it was going to have any problims > it would have had them by now but still I Can't guarantee how it will look in > 100 years but I think it will still be OK ...I do tend not to worry to much > about stuff that far down the road as I sort of think I won't be around > anyway....Todd > Thanks Todd, I'm sold. You just convinced me to add Gunk to my tool cleaning kit. Al Perreault Westminster, Ma ---- Start of Message 128221 ---- From: "Gary Cavener" Date: 2004-01-25 14:22:50 Subject: What is the big chisel? Whudizit? I have a big and heavy chisel that I want to make a handle for. The link below shows the chisel with broken handle next to an average sized Stanley #750 1" chisel. I am wondering if this Witherby monster might be a slick. Anyway, my main concern is finding an appropriate size and design for a handle. http://www.snapfish.com/viewsharedphoto/p=139251075068654054/l=23019896/cobr andOid=1000131 You may have to edit the above URL to put it back together if your email app makes it into 2 lines. Thanks for any help, Gary Cavener Oregon City, OR ---- Start of Message 128222 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-01-25 15:44:18 Subject: Re: What is the big chisel? Hey Gary That's a Witherby?? Looks to be Underhill to me. They specialized in this pattern. It's a boatbuilders chisel. Takes a big handle with a long tenon to fit that socket! Huge. Be glad to help more if you need it. I love these. yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 128223 ---- From: "Jon Endres, PE" Date: 2004-01-25 20:03:16 Subject: RE: What is the big chisel? That looks like a framing chisel rather that a slick, and as such, should have a shorter handle with a steel ring around the butt end. Are you sure it's Witherby? I have an Underhill that looks just like it. Jon E > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary Cavener [mailto:sharpshaver@c...] > Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 5:23 PM > To: oldtools > Subject: [oldtools] What is the big chisel? > > > Whudizit? I have a big and heavy chisel that I want to make a handle for. > The link below shows the chisel with broken handle next to an > average sized > Stanley #750 1" chisel. I am wondering if this Witherby monster might be a > slick. > > Anyway, my main concern is finding an appropriate size and design for a > handle. > > > > http://www.snapfish.com/viewsharedphoto/p=139251075068654054/l=230 19896/cobr andOid=1000131 You may have to edit the above URL to put it back together if your email app makes it into 2 lines. Thanks for any help, Gary Cavener Oregon City, OR ---- Start of Message 128224 ---- From: "danny kaye" Date: 2004-01-26 01:58:47 Subject: Re: Re:Neander Norm we are a couple of series behind in the UK so new to u is a couple of years old I guess... danny ---- Start of Message 128225 ---- From: "danny kaye" Date: 2004-01-26 02:00:32 Subject: pink tools and missing parts just scored a couple of things from *bay, a record 71 and a record chamfer shave. just three questions the 71 is missing the 1/4 inch blade, are the record blades the same as stanley ones? and has anyone got a spare they would sell... the chamfer shave is bright pink, was this a normal coulour for record? thanks danny ---- Start of Message 128226 ---- From: "Bret Rochotte" Date: 2004-01-25 22:19:48 Subject: old spoke shave-- wear plate Hello; My old wooden spoke shave needs a wear plate. Comments welcome as to = choice of material. I have brass, bone or hard wood. I'm thinking bone = would look nice. Does it make any difference in usability? Thanks, Bret Bret and Wendy Rochotte=20 New Bremen, Ohio rochotte@b... ---- Start of Message 128227 ---- From: Mike Duchaj Date: 2004-01-25 22:14:15 Subject: Galoot reference by St. Roy GGs I was watching St. Roy today. He made a Krumhorn based on a design by our own Trevor Robinson. I think this is the most current series, so congratualtions Trevor. If this show is a rerun, or if I have the wrong Trevor, my apologies for the bandwidth. Mike Duchaj Elgin, IL In the process of rehandling my axe...... again. I'm trying a straight handle this time. What the heck, I'll just break it anyway. Don't get me started on the qualtiy of available handles...... ---- Start of Message 128228 ---- From: Mike Duchaj Date: 2004-01-25 22:17:02 Subject: Re: old spoke shave-- wear plate Hi Bret, I think Tod Hurley recommends ebony. On second thought, he recommends that for everything. Mike Duchaj Ducking and running.... Bret Rochotte wrote: > Hello; > > M Comments welcome as to choice of material. ---- Start of Message 128229 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-25 22:49:11 Subject: Re: Bio - Marcus Sly, and 'hello' Beautiful work, marcus. You must have done some research or had some previous woodworking knowledge because I can tell from the pictures you knew well enough to rip the top every few inches and flip over every other board. I'll bet the bookmatched effect on the top is beautiful. Make sure you lightly seal that endrgrain prior to finishing so it doesn't look overly dark from the rest of the piece. >From my way of thinking you are never wrong to overengineer something. Frankly I have no doubts that stool of yours would easily hold the weight of a car engine without any trouble ever for years. I think you already know the most valuable piece of information -- triangular bracing and/or corner blocks really help. You may "waste time" by overengineering but you are NEVER WRONG to do so. Interesting other posts about bridges. There have been several noteable failures and that has really forced engineers to advance their science. Now we scan music at twice the maximum possible frequency for audio reasons but engineers use 8 times the max possible frequency because they need to assure that no "Standing Waves" (just like an SWR meter for a Ham setup measures the Standing Wave Ratio in an antenna design) could reinforce each other and oscillate the bridge right out of existance. I am sure you have seen that classic B&W footage where a suspension bridge being blown by the wind simply falls apart. That is Standing Waves in action. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- Marcus Sly Tel: +44 (O) 1274 589650 email: marcus.sly@b... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marcus Sly" > To: "oldtools" > Sent: 19 January 2004 23:36 > Subject: [oldtools] Bio - Marcus Sly, and 'hello' > > > > Hello Galoots, > > > > I've been lurking here for a while, and thought it was time I introduced > > myself. > > I'm new to this galooting business - in fact new to anything to do with > > making things out of wood. Had a strange and unexpected conversion about > six > > months ago when the thought popped into my head that perhaps it would be > fun > > to get some pieces of wood and turn them into useful, nice looking > objects. > > No idea why I suddenly thought this after a lifetime of avoiding anything > to > > do with making things (apart from the odd crappo DIY effort), but there > you > > go. > > > > So I bought myself some saws and chisels and such and spent four months > > practicing joints (after I'd learned to saw straight that is..). Wife must > > have thought I had gone quite mad. After a while I got fed up with > clamping > > bits of wood to kitchen worktop (so did Wife), so over Christmas I got to > > work and made my first bench. In spite of major design flaw (don't ask) > I'm > > pretty pleased with it, and it is a whole lot better that the kitchen work > > top. Boy does having a vice > > The deal was that if we are going to eat our meals sitting at a work > bench, > > the least I could do is build her a high stool so she can see over the > top. > > Here it is: www.marcus-sly.info/wood I'm pretty pleased with it. Actually > > that's an understatement. I'm besotted. I know it's nothing compared to > what > > you experienced galoots make, but I still keep looking at it going "I > can't > > believe I made that.." > > > > When not indulging my new obsession I teach English (to adults), the > > Alexander Technique, and music. Our front room contains a grand piano as > > well as a work bench. Feels a bit claustrophobic sometimes. I live in the > UK > > in Bradford, Yorkshire. I'm 32, so I guess that makes me a bit of a spring > > chicken around here? No GITS as yet, but maybe one day soon. > > > > Anyway, thank you all for the vast amount I've learnt from reading the > list > > so far. It has been a great help. > > > > Marcus Sly > > Bradford, Yorkshire ---- Start of Message 128230 ---- From: Randy Roeder Date: 2004-01-25 23:06:12 Subject: What's a "carshop"?? Hi all, Occasionally when looking through old tool catalogs you come across the illustration of an over-sized, heavy duty brace or breast drill with the notation that it is "especially useful for carshops" I imagine we're not talking about automotive stuff here? Randy Roeder --- Repaint houses, not old tools. ---- Start of Message 128231 ---- From: "Jon Pile" Date: 2004-01-25 21:55:10 Subject: RE: Bio - Marcus Sly, and 'hello' > From my way of thinking you are never wrong to overengineer something. > Frankly I have no doubts that stool of yours would easily hold the weight > of a car engine without any trouble ever for years. I think you already > know the most valuable piece of information -- triangular bracing and/or > corner blocks really help. You may "waste time" by overengineering but you > are NEVER WRONG to do so. I'm with you John. By the way, I think an overlooked aspect is that this stool is used at a workbench (albeit a workbench serving double duty as a dining table). It seems spot-on, design-wise, that a sturdy workbench should have visually consistent seating. Of course, this is an oblique way of asking for photos of the bench and stool together. :) > Interesting other posts about bridges. There have been several noteable > failures and that has really forced engineers to advance their > science. Now Those interested in this topic might enjoy _To_Engineer_Is_Human_ by Henry Petroski. Tales of engineering failures and successes; some old, some new, and lots of bridges. -jP ---- Start of Message 128232 ---- From: "Thomas Graham" Date: 2004-01-26 04:31:22 Subject: Tool on the History Channel GG, Went to the Area ? Mid-West meeting in York, PA this weekend. During the dealer sales on Sunday there was a crew (two people actually) from the History Channel taping the displays and individual tools. I was told that a thirteen part series on tools would begin airing in mid to late March. Sounds good to me. Tom Graham Round Hill, VA Where there is 6-8 inches of snow on the ground, its 15 degrees, and the forcast is for sleet/rain later in the day. Oh joy! ---- Start of Message 128233 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-26 10:18:06 Subject: Re: pink tools and missing parts danny kaye wrote: >just scored a couple of things from *bay, a record 71 and a record >chamfer shave. just three questions > >the 71 is missing the 1/4 inch blade, are the record blades the same as >stanley ones? > AFAIK the Record were based sufficiently closely on Stanley models that you'd be OK with a Stanley. In particular, the #71 design doesn't have a highly engineered "fit" for the blades, so you've some tolerance anyway. > and has anyone got a spare they would sell... > That's a definite "no" > >the chamfer shave is bright pink, was this a normal coulour for record? > > > No - but for a period Record coloured their "cast iron" tools blue, and their (superior) malleable iron tools red. I'm guessing pink is just sun-faded red. BugBear (waiting for the definitive response from Mr Horobin) ---- Start of Message 128234 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-26 10:20:38 Subject: Re: making pencil gauges Marcus Sly wrote: >. > >Secondly, a question. I'm thinking of making a couple of pencil gauges. I >am intending to secure the fence with a brass thumb screw. My mortice gauge >has this arrangement and I notice that the thumbscrew screws through a bolt >in the fence. My question is: how do I attach such a bolt securely to the >fence? > > The nut in the fence is captive; if it's recessed into the fence, and the stem in in place, the nut cannot escape from its recess. Further, if the tightening bolt is in place, the nut is held into it's recess. Further, if the recess is a tight fit, friction hold the nut. In short - if you make it "the natural way" the nut is quite adequately captive. BugBear ---- Start of Message 128235 ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-01-26 06:12:19 Subject: Re: What's a "carshop"?? Randy asks ... > Occasionally when looking through old tool catalogs you come across the > illustration of an over-sized, heavy duty brace or breast drill with the > notation that it is "especially useful for carshops" My bet: railroad 'car shops' here in the US. Repair facilities are still call 'shops', and passenger & freight cars were certainly around for the last 150 years. Charlie Driggs Newark DE ... headed out to plow the driveway; more snow coming. ---- Start of Message 128236 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-26 05:15:14 Subject: RE: What's a "carshop"?? Yeah, I am pretty sure they are talking automotive shops. At one time they were used a lot. Recently a friend and I had to bring a freezer up a set of stairs and needed to remove the railing for extra clearance. Got two screwdrivers and started in. After awhile he told me his was stripping. I tried and couldn't get it to work either which is when I remembered and dug out my father's old brace and bits. I don't think he thought I was serious when I held up this century old tool and proclaimed it as "the first cordless screwdriver" and proceeded to chuck in the screwdriver bit. With my chest again the tool it was short work to get that "stripped" screw out because there was plenty of pressure to keep it from slipping out what little remained of the screw head's slot. So I know they were used that way and screws were common back then. I wouldn't be too surprised if reamers and other such tools were available for braces. I know I have two countersinks, though I am unsure if either is suitable for metal use. I keep one chucked up in a brace in my shop at all times because frankly it is much quicker than chucking the appropriate bit in a c*rdless dr*ll. Matter of fact that is where a lot of these old tools can come in super handy. I've got the proper size pilot hole for a #8 screw permanently chucked in my brass push-drill (it's like the yankee screwdriver only it goes in one direction only) and one of my two 'eggbeater' drills permanently has a pilot hole for a #6 screw, which are the two most common screws I use. Since I already have the tools on hand I found this arrangement to be much more conveinent and time effective in the long run. Another thought came up that I have been considering with these tools. They are relatively safe. I think it was one of the kokomo galoots whose picture with his son got me thinking that tools like the eggbeater drills would be perfect to teach a young kid how to get working in the shop. In my case it would be my niece and nephew. They just love when I teach them to do things because they like doing "big people things" too. Now I have been wondering what would be good to teach them. Maybe a bird house or some thing smaller project like that. > [Original Message] > From: Randy Roeder > To: oldtools > Date: 1/25/2004 10:59:26 PM > Subject: [oldtools] What's a "carshop"?? > > Hi all, > > Occasionally when looking through old tool catalogs you come across the > illustration of an over-sized, heavy duty brace or breast drill with the > notation that it is "especially useful for carshops" > > I imagine we're not talking about automotive stuff here? > > Randy Roeder --- Repaint houses, not old tools. > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 128237 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-26 05:25:04 Subject: RE: Galoot reference by St. Roy A tip I found handy when I used an axe a lot was this. When you lay the handle down touching the ground the ax bit should touch the ground approximately 2/3rds of the way in. That way there is maximum cutting force transferred to the wood. Or the other way you could look at it would be to have the blade touch the ground 1/3 away from the handle end. I always preferred the kind with the hook near the end. I feel they are more natural in a sense. Just like the old six shooters have that more straight drop handle as opposed to the newer pistols where it angles back straighter. If you hold both and try to point while blindfolded there is a BIG difference. Either way some cloth friction tape like hockey players use on their ash hockey sticks works great around the grip. Another thing I found is that they tend to dryrot from the wedge end in so keep something on their to protect the woods moisture content. BLO would work fine. If you are not happy with the quality of available handles you should get on your shaving horse with your drawknife and make a suitable axe handle. Hickory is common but if you feel you need something extra durable you could use hop hornbeam or osage orange. > Mike Duchaj > Elgin, IL > In the process of rehandling my axe...... again. I'm trying a straight > handle this time. What the heck, I'll just break it anyway. Don't get me > started on the qualtiy of available handles...... ---- Start of Message 128238 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-26 05:42:27 Subject: RE: Glass (was St. Roy and the stone age) If I had to make a guesstimate at that one I would try glass that can stand high temperature. Usually quartz is added and this laboratory grade glass is unusually tough stuff. I have no guesses as to if a good edge can be formed on it but during use it should stand up to heat and pressure better. If I were to fuss with it I would probably try a diamond grinding wheel on a dr*m*l for starters. Seems like there is more than a little glorifying of obsidian going on. It's neat stuff but I suspect it has a reputation mostly because at the times people were often using these technologies it was before they could manufacture better. Just like mica, a natural mineral, made great "windows" in the very old lanterns. It was handy because the material needed little preparation. Obsidian is a volcanic rock and yes the edge chips with relative ease into a useable edge. But it's jaggedness is nowhere near as good as the scalpels or even many of the knives commonly available today. I doubt it would last as long and then.... how in the world would you sharpen a chipped edge? I would not want to even try to think of the nightmare of that. > [Original Message] > From: Gary Katsanis > To: oldtools > Date: 1/25/2004 12:11:45 PM > Subject: [oldtools] Glass (was St. Roy and the stone age) > > I suspect that obsidian, being stone, would have > different sharpening and wear characteristics than > glass. Does anyone know which *type* of glass > would be best for scrapers or knives? > > Gary K > Close to Buffalo NY > > --snip, snip-- > > >> scarapers. If Hock would just get off his silly > >>steel fad, we could have some real smoother blades.... > > Obsidian was the sharpest material known to man, might > still be, taking an edge finer than the best surgical scaple. > > --snip, snip-- > > Unfortunately, no. Glass knives are often used in slicing > specimens for transmission electron microsopy. They > don't last all that long, but they > > --snip, snip-- > > Gunstockers will often use a shard of glass to scrape > down a particularly tricky piece of tiger maple, > > --snip, snip-- > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 128239 ---- From: "John Pesut" Date: 2004-01-26 07:05:03 Subject: Re: What's a "carshop"?? I believe that in this context carshop=carriage shop. In the early days of the automotive industry the auto makers would create a chassis/engine platform and the carriage shops would fabricate the "body". It kept them in business for a while longer. The smart one read the writing on the wall real quick i.e. Fisher, Studebaker etc. The other ones, well they went out of business. Later, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Roeder" To: "oldtools" Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 12:06 AM Subject: [oldtools] What's a "carshop"?? > Hi all, > > Occasionally when looking through old tool catalogs you come across the > illustration of an over-sized, heavy duty brace or breast drill with the > notation that it is "especially useful for carshops" > > I imagine we're not talking about automotive stuff here? > > Randy Roeder --- Repaint houses, not old tools. > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 128240 ---- From: tomthornton Date: 2004-01-26 07:24:41 Subject: Loosening Spokeshave cutter If you can, clamp the cutter at the blade side and the tang side so your vice or clamp is holding the whole metal cutter . Then try and work the wood away from the tang. The big problem comes from only being able to work one side at a time so any movement is going to be very small then you have to switch to the other side. Last resort, again while steel is held solid try and work very small drill or needle down the area between the tang and the wood. Don't expect to pull this off in a evening, it is going to take a lot of time and slow working. Stay away from the temptation to use any liquid down the hole because that will only swell the wood and lock things up tighter. And you may want to put the whole thing in the over on low heat to try and dry the wood completely. Good luck . -- Tom Thornton Cincinnati #3, Morristown N.J. USA Collector of old tools, specializing in Hand Cranked Grindstones ---- Start of Message 128241 ---- From: "John Sawchak" Date: 2004-01-26 06:40:03 Subject: RE: Experimenting with augurs Pine maybe? I will be interested to see what becomes of this thread. I did recently dig out my dad's bits and find coarse and fine... and I think a few mediums as well. > [Original Message] > From: Andrew Midkiff > To: oldtools > Date: 1/21/2004 9:55:05 PM > Subject: [oldtools] Experimenting with augurs > > I did a little experimentation tonight. I first > grabbed the first #4 (1/4") bit I had and it just > happened to be a fine thread Clinton "The Irwin Bit". > After trying out drilling a hole in a scrap piece, it > sure seemed to take a long time. So, I drilled the > same hole and counted, it took 90 rotations. I dug > around and found another #4, this one a Greenle with > course threads. It also bore a clean hole of the same > size but took only 20 turns. > > So, the question is, if the course thread worked this > well in hard maple, when would I want to use the fine > thread augur bit? > > Thanks! > > AAAndrew > Actually working with wood, and having fun with tools > in Durham, North Carolina. > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 128242 ---- From: "Bruce Love" Date: 2004-01-26 07:48:10 Subject: Re: Tool on the History Channel Tom Graham reported... > Went to the Area ? Mid-West meeting in York, PA this weekend. During the > dealer sales on Sunday there was a crew (two people actually) from the > History Channel taping the displays and individual tools. I was told that a > thirteen part series on tools would begin airing in mid to late March. > Sounds good to me. Argh! Now I feel really bad. Not only did I blow off going to York, PA and miss out on meeting some fellow Galoots (as well as acquiring some more tools) - I missed my chance to become a TV star! Sigh. Back to those American Idol auditions I guess... Bruce Love Pipersville, PA ---- Start of Message 128243 ---- From: "Michael McCarthy" Date: 2004-01-26 12:55:22 Subject: travishers GG's, I have had call for just over a dozen travisher blades and so will begin making them today. There does not seem to be a concensus on size etc. so I will use my examples to come up with something that hopefully works well. If anyone else is interested give me a buzz, as I have much production to do and these will take a bit of time anyhos. (Have to squeeze 'em betwixt the bread and butter.) Michael McCarthy Mechanick http://www.hammerinhand.com _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up — fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 ---- Start of Message 128244 ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-01-26 07:04:59 Subject: Re: Casting Sand? > > Has anyone else seen such a poorly prepared and machined >Stanley tool? If so, I guess I've got to start looking harder. - Karl W. Sanger I understand there exists a bunch of collectors (not us right?) that accumulates factory defective Stanley tools and correct me if I am wrong, Stanley stamped some indication mark on batches of defective planes (tools) that were allowed to enter the market place. According to my information source this group of collectors values these planes at a much higher level than "perfect" planes from the same era. This collecting phenomena might be similar to the stamp collector's higher value pension for upside down airplane stamps;-)? I have a minty #3 with painted hardwood handles and orange paint logo lever cap that has uneven thickness casting on the plane body sides. I would gladly exchange this collector plane for a like one that is was cast properly:-) But then we are not collectors .....are we? -Rex ---- Start of Message 128245 ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 2004-01-26 07:56:47 Subject: Re: old spokeshave Danny Kaye wrote: >just picked up a nice old wooden shave from the local antique market ... > >however the tangs on the blade are well stuck in the wood, they look >rusted in, or maybe it is corrosion from a steel/wood reaction, I >tried tapping the end with a small hammer but only one moved, any >ideas for releasing the other end? I haven't had need to test this idea, but am wondering if it would be possible to release the stubborn tang with some clamping pressure? In other words, use a C-clamp (G-cramp) to apply pressure to the upper end of the tang while pressing against a clamping block fit around the tang end of the blade on the sole of the shave. If fit carefully around the tang end of the blade, the clamping block might also help to minimize chipping any wood out? Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 128246 ---- From: "John North" Date: 2004-01-26 07:54:30 Subject: Re: What's a "carshop"?? Randy wondered about "car shops" > Occasionally when looking through old tool catalogs you come across the > illustration of an over-sized, heavy duty brace or breast drill with the > notation that it is "especially useful for carshops" > > I imagine we're not talking about automotive stuff here? I believe Randy is right. Car shops is a railroad term. In Detroit they neither used the term 'car' nor did they build them in 'shops'. There were tool and die shops but automobiles were built in 'plants'. JN in 20 below NH ---- Start of Message 128247 ---- From: "Marcus Sly" Date: 2004-01-26 13:13:00 Subject: Re: Bio - Marcus Sly, and 'hello' >You must have done some research or had some >previous woodworking knowledge because I can tell from the pictures you >knew well enough to rip the top every few inches and flip over every other >board. I've read everything on wood working I could find for the last six months - this galoot thing can get quite obsessive, can't it... > Of course, this is an oblique way of asking for photos of the bench and > stool together. :) OK, I've added a picture of both together to the page. This is against my better judgment - the design flaw I spoke of was so STUPID that I blush every time I look at the damn thing. Suffice to say it doesn't wobble when I'm planing anymore - but only due to the addition of some sturdy steel brackets :-( - Marcus. ---- Start of Message 128248 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-26 13:26:35 Subject: thoughts on plough (plow) plane capacity I have noticed that wooden plough planes are designed so that they can cut much deeper grooves than more recent metal plough planes. There seems to be no reason that a wooden plough couldn't be made with a shallow skate, and (conversely) that a metal plane couldn't be made with a deep skate. I therefore assume that this difference reflects typical modes of use at the time of manufacture (with wooden ploughs being earlier). I think the explanation may lie in a couple of techniques I've read of in older books. To make a rebate you don't need a dedicated rebate plane (one with depth stops and fences) since you can use a plough to make the "defining cut", and then use saws, chisels and/or a plain rebate to remove the waste. http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?message_i- d=70370&submit_thread=1#message When making "custom" mouldings, a plough is used to make cuts that define the principal points of the moulding, prior to waste removal and finishing with hollows and rounds. http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~c- swingle/archive/get.phtml?message_id=71057#message However, when a groove is a required for joinery purposes, it's typically as deep as it is wide. I therefore conclude that the latter is the only intended purpose of modern (i.e. post 1900!) metallic ploughs, whilst earlier wooden planes had a wider range of application. BugBear ---- Start of Message 128249 ---- From: Jim Crammond Date: 2004-01-26 05:32:11 Subject: Re: What's a "carshop"?? Randy, As several others have said, I think you are right in thinking these catalogs are talking about railroad carshops. Until the turn of the last century, the majority of the body of a railcar was made of wood. Typically the draft gear, i.e. wheels, drawbars, couplers, trucks, centersill, etc., were made of steel but the car body was made of wood. The inside of boxcars was lined with 8/4 tongue in groove pine into the 1970's. In my experience, the facilities were raicars were made are called carshops and the facilities where they were repaired are called backshops. Jim Crammond in Monroe, Mi. --- Randy Roeder wrote: > Hi all, > > Occasionally when looking through old tool catalogs > you come across the > illustration of an over-sized, heavy duty brace or > breast drill with the > notation that it is "especially useful for carshops" > > I imagine we're not talking about automotive stuff > here? > > Randy Roeder --- Repaint houses, not old tools. > > Archive: > http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web > interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128250 ---- From: Walter Anderson Date: 2004-01-26 05:38:01 Subject: RE: Galoot reference by St. Roy The following web site has some good introductory material on the knapping of glass (among many other things). This guy is into galoot chemistry. ;-) http://cavemanchemistry.com/cavebook/chstone3.html Walter ---- Start of Message 128251 ---- From: "John R. Wilson" Date: 2004-01-26 07:53:12 Subject: Re: Tote finishing question > Does anybody know what this finish could >be? It's different in texture than any other tote I have, >and very desirable. > >Thanks >Jonathan Peck >NYC > Could be one of the new wiping type urethane/linseed oil mixes, they are getting better and better. I like General Finishes versions for tool handles and horizontal hard used furniture tops. Table tops, tops of chests etc. Try it you will like it. -Rex ---- Start of Message 128252 ---- From: "George Langford" Date: 2004-01-26 08:48:44 Subject: Re: What's a "carshop"?? Hello Galoots ! Randy Roeder wondered out loud ... snippage: > ... carshops ... not talking about automotive stuff here? Nope. Railroad cars, especially the wooden-framed ones. Lots of big-time rabbets and dadoes, very deep bolt holes, etc. George Langford, in even more arctic SE PA georgel@v... http://www.georgesbasement.com/braces/ (corrected URL) ---- Start of Message 128253 ---- From: Walter Anderson Date: 2004-01-26 05:52:03 Subject: I completed a project! I have recently completed scanning the entire oldtools archive and discovered that my favorite posts are those that describe completed projects and events. As such I've decided to describe my last completed project. This is a jewelry box that I made as a birthday gift for a friend. It is based upon a design in Box-Making Basics: Design, Technique, Projects by David Freedman. The book is not galoot friendly, but I really like the design of several of the projects. I used the basic design of the box, but cut the front/back and sides about 3/8" longer than described to allow for small tenons, rather than using the biscuits described in the book. I liked the combination of maple and bubinga that the box used in the book, but preferred using birdseye maple for the top and legs and bubinga for the sides.I made a cardboard template of the curves for these pieces and traced the curves onto both sides of each piece. Rather than trying to use a coping saw to cut the curves I used a trick described by Mike Delong in a post about a class he took in Waco, TX. The trick was to cut perpendicularly down to within a 1/16" of the curve, evenly spaced along piece. Then chop the waste away with a chisel. I then cleaned up the curve with the spokeshave that I made last spring. I got a lot of practise with this part as I had to remake several of the pieces more than once due to mistakes. Another change that I made was to cut grooves into the legs as well as the front/back and sides for the bottom panel (the author notched the panels to fit around the legs). The panel was another challenge. I made a homemade piece of cherry plywood using five layers of cherry veneer and hide glue. I used the hammered veneering process described by Taig Frige in the FWW on Marquetry and Veneering book. I used 1/8" bubinga to made the dividers for the bottom of the box and the sliding tray. These pieces weren't part of the original box design, but are necessary for a jewelry box. I cheated on the creation of these dividers and used my Taig mill to create the half lap joints. They required more precision than my skill level allows. I made the tray from birdseye maple and another custom made plywood panel. This time I made the panel from maple veneer and "let" it into the bottom of the tray. Is plywood galootish if it is made by hand? The piece was finished with four coats of garnet shellac and a top coat of furniture wax. Pictures of the box are posted to: http://www.geocities.com/wandrson/woodworking/jewelry_box.html Tools used: Lie-Nielsen IT Carcass Saw Assorted Marples Blue Chip Chisels Sandvik Card Scraper Starrett 6" Square Starrett 4" Combination Square Lie-Nielsen Low Angle Adjustable Mouth Block Plane Record #4 Smoothing Plane (with Hock Blade) Nobex Champion Miter Saw Urethane Carvers Mallet (20oz) 18" Steel Ruler 12" Incra T-Ruler 3" Incra T-Ruler Clark & Wilson Bedding Float Spokeshave Round Microplane Rasp Round File Walt in Dallas, TX ---- Start of Message 128254 ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-01-26 08:52:05 Subject: Trevor Robinson [was: Galoot reference by St. Roy] Mike Duchaj wrote: >I was watching St. Roy today. He made a Krumhorn based on a design by >our own Trevor Robinson. > >I think this is the most current series, so congratualtions Trevor. If >this show is a rerun, or if I have the wrong Trevor, my apologies for >the bandwidth. I didn't see the show, but I'm pretty sure this must be "our" Trevor: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0870233122/qid=1075124748- /sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8627653-9232106?v=glance&s=books (I still have around here --some place-- the FWW article Trevor did on cutting the bore on these things.) A Krumhorn?? Now _there's_ an OldTool. WOOOOO!! Way to go Trevor! Nichael (Not to be confused with Trevor "Biochemistry of Alkaloids" Robinson ;-) ---- Start of Message 128255 ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-01-26 06:00:41 Subject: RE: Experimenting with augurs --- John Sawchak wrote: > Pine maybe? > > I will be interested to see what becomes of this > thread. I did recently dig > out my dad's bits and find coarse and fine... and I > think a few mediums as > well. > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Andrew Midkiff > > So, the question is, if the course thread worked > this > > well in hard maple, when would I want to use the > fine > > thread augur bit? > > I had originally asked this question because my understanding from previous threads had been that the course thread augers were good for softer woods as the wider threads bit into the soft wood better. The fine threads bit into the hard woods well. The question is around what benefit is granted by boring more slowly? Does it make a cleaner hole if going all the way through? In my current application, drilling out closed mortises, the course thread bits are working fine. AAAndrew Where we just got a snow day off from work (free day in the shop) because of the ice storms in Durham, North Carolina. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128256 ---- From: Walter Anderson Date: 2004-01-26 06:01:37 Subject: Re: Neander Norm Speaking of Norm using shellac. On the episode that is described where he built the screen. He used shellac in the finishing process... After the stain and before the topcoat of poly ;-) Walt in Dallas ---- Start of Message 128257 ---- From: "Steve Reynolds" Date: 2004-01-26 09:14:14 Subject: Re: What's a "carshop"?? > Hi all, > > Occasionally when looking through old tool catalogs you come across the > illustration of an over-sized, heavy duty brace or breast drill with the > notation that it is "especially useful for carshops" > Like Charlie, I'm thinking it means railroad cars. Can't see anything special about an automobile that would call for a brace or breast drill especially useful for it. One look at the "car barns" nearby would show the heavy duty, grungy, work needed to make and service rolling stock. Now for a more rhetorical question. What is it about breast drills that invites the brutality they almost always show evidence of suffering? No other catagory of tool is so often found with the coating of caked on grease-and-metal-filings and busted parts. With a name like breast drill you would think it would inspire a gentle fondling. Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 128258 ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-01-26 10:13:53 Subject: RE: Glass (was St. Roy and the stone age) The right sort of obsidian is quite glassy, and is used for super-sharp scalpels. Typically, these are used for eye surgery and other specialized applications. Part of the confusion is that "glass" refers to both ordinary glass and related silica-based materials, as well as a particular type of amorphous (non-crystalline) microstructure. As a result, you can have metallic glasses as well as the usual kind. One metallic glass can be cast like regular metal, but with an incredibly sharp edge -- no sharpening at all -- and an acquaintence once found out the hard way that the metallic glass ribbons used for high-end transformers have razor-like edges. Ken "Once a scientist..." Meltsner ---- Start of Message 128259 ---- From: "Lawrence H. Smith" Date: 2004-01-26 10:21:26 Subject: Tool use in finish framing... Some eons ago (August) some guy who looks exactly like I do in a mirror, only reversed left to right, framed up my shop's 10'x10' door opening, making it (supposedly) 10' 4-1/2" wide so that the facing would be two pieces of 1-1/2" '2x' stock, and 2 pieces of 3/4" '1x' stock. Having finally placed the interior framing that the overhead door folks wanted, it became clear that the 1x stock was not going to be 3/4" in most places. This may in part be blamed on the concrete guy, who does not look like me. And they were not going to be any uniform thickness throughout the length, which comes back to that guy that looks like me ;-). So I have this random sized gap from the face of the 2x fill around the door to the edge of the 2x framing inside the building, and I need the facing to be flush to the edge of the inside framing, so that the overhead door folks can put on their seal strips around the door. Given that it was down to -13 F over the weekend, I'm really looking forward to having a well-insulated, tightly sealed door over this 100 square foot hole in the shop. If they were not fibbing, I think they are coming later this week. I used unspeakable means which have aged poorly to get the facing down to the thickest dimension of the gap, and appreciated greatly the heat thrown off of the noisy gasoline device which welds and makes unspeakable means operate (the CO detector has stayed down below 10 since I fixed an exhaust leak that developed on Wednesday, when it went up to 500+ while I was away for an hour or two with it running). After that, I placed the boards in position and marked the desired edge with a pencil. I tried scrubbing one in place a bit, but it was much warmer (it eventually got above the freezing point of water) in the shop with my kludge of foam stuffed into the doorway and several halogen lights running off the loud, warm object, so I brought the boards inside, clamped them in Dad's Sears Workmutt, wrapped my knee aroud parts of the workmutt and scrubbed away to the line. At least it has all the rubber feet... I have a huge amount of bench material on hand, due to cutting up lots of trees, some of them with the help of the Shaftsbury Galoot's bandmill, but I have not got the benches built, yet. As the shop gets more closed in, the benches get closer to getting built. My scrub is a run of the mill coffin bodied smoother which came to me (I think from the MOA, in a bargain box of woodies, but might have been from someone else) with a radiused sole and a radiused iron. I thought I was going to "fix" it, but then I discovered that it works very well as a scrub, so I just use it. I left the outer edge of the board full thickness (will look better), and tapered it to fit the line at the inside. After getting the bulk off in short order, I hit it with the embarrasing but still functional Record Marples 05 (bright blue jack plane, Paddy) with chrome vanadium blade, bought brand new for $75, and then finished off the surface with the far more satisfying Millers Falls #9 smoother (9" iron smoother from a bit east of here, Jeff) which cost $10, used. I had set a few tubes of caulk in the airstream from the noisemaker, so they were thawed enough to use. I gooped up the doorframe and nailed the custom-fit boards into place with stainless-steel siding nails, whacking the ones under where the seal strip will be, setting the ones that should be beyond it. A pretty straightforward galoot fitting task that would have been all but impossible to pull off by non-galoot means. -- -Lawrence H Smith, Librarian/Computarian for Buxton School and Woodworker -lsmith@s... Cats, Coffee, Chocolate... Vices to live by. ---- Start of Message 128260 ---- From: Doug Van Horn Date: 2004-01-26 10:25:53 Subject: Bio/Introduction Gentlemen: I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Doug Van Horn, I live in St. Louis, MO, in the United States (located roughly dead-center of the country). I'm a software code-monkey who's been fiddling around woodworking for about a year now. I spent the first six months of my woodworking life agonizing over what to buy. I went from power tools (that's all I knew), to western hand tools, to Japanese hand tools, and came back through again. I decided to try and stick with western hand tools & Japanese saws, but mainly I'm after quiet and convenient, in that order. After I bought a few saws and a couple of chisels, I built the 'Good, Fast, Cheap' workbench that I'm sure many of you are familiar with (it's a 2x4, 2x8 lumber bench). The top is 'flat-ish', the base is pathetic, and the metal vise is too small for the top thickness. Regardless, I loved building it and it works well enough to allow me to plane and saw. I just 'lit' my workshop (basement) which makes all the difference in the world. I went from 2 100-watt bulbs to 10 4' 2-light T-8 flourescents with 4100K bulbs, which ends up being very nice. Now I'm ready to build a few things. A good thing, too, as my financial backer (SWMBO) is getting anxious about not seeing any productivity from her investment. This isn't the dot-com days, she says... My early list of things to build includes a sharpening bench, a television cabinet for the bedroom, and toy chest/cabinet for my tools. Or is it a tool chest for my toys? The group here is a treasure-trove of invaluable information for neophyte galoots such as myself (would the proper term be a palooka?). Thanks to all for maintaining and participating. Doug Van Horn (who knows that a Japanese saw coming out of its kerf will cut a thumbnail) ---- Start of Message 128261 ---- From: JPark1812@a... Date: 2004-01-26 10:41:12 Subject: Re: What's a "carshop"?? Railroding is a major car yard user but also think a little smaller with tracks... Trollies. There were a lot of them around. They also went through the gamut of animal pulled to electric. Neat trim and construction . Runs over in terms even in the early years of the buses replacing trollies and going back to the "car barns" Its not an automotive term except in the early years where there were shops not plants. Jim Parker ---- Start of Message 128262 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-26 10:45:50 Subject: WTB Stanley #10 chipbreaker & a question Hello GG's Does anybody have a spare chipbreaker for a Stanley #10 (early vintage would be nice)? Please ping me off-list. For some reason, somebody modified the chipbreaker, enlarging the slot where the depth adjuster enters. The blade will not extend far enough unless I set the chipbreaker 1/4" back from the edge of the blade. Also, the blade will not fit onto the round disk of the lateral adjuster. Me thinks that the lateral adjuster has been replaced. It appears to be the right vintage, but possibly from a different (size?) bench plane. I've removed the lateral adjuster, and I'm thinking that I will make the round disk smaller (grinder?). Any tips will be appreciated. The blade is of good length, (APL 19.92) and probably will never need replacing. Should I modify the blade instead? Thanks Jonathan NYC ---- Start of Message 128263 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-26 08:47:11 Subject: Re: St. Roy and the stone age Some knives are now made with ceramic blades. I have never used one, but if the ad hype is to be believed, they hold a fine edge. Blake ---- Start of Message 128264 ---- From: JPark1812@a... Date: 2004-01-26 10:56:44 Subject: Re: Glass (was St. Roy and the stone age) First thing to remember is this stuff is sharp sharp sharp! As a archaeologist (sometimes) certified , payed and do this at home) I have been around lithics and as a historic archaeologist seen a few pieces og worked glass. The favorite of the folks around here is thick green wine/ rum bottle glass. During the 18th century the Britsh was favored as French had a softer soda glass. Use the shoulders and body abd you get a nice curvature. I excavated a pit once filled with debris of the abandonment of a fort in 1763. In it was a complete(reconstructiable) case, square thin glass bottle. The only evidence of wines were necks from 9 bottles. Interpretation breaking bottles for body and base glass but chucking the less desirable neck glass. It is my understanding that for finish use pane/mirror glass was the more finished scraper where the bottles galss was for aboriginal and green woodworker as well as hide work of all kinds. Do not forget the expensive glass cloth of our predessors. A side note. Several years ago some of the guys at the Smithsonian who worked with obsidion and flint had the opportunity to work freshly knapped tools on an elephant (Faux mastadon) that had died of natural causes. Tools worked graet and they buthered the beast pretty quick which was good because some of them need to leave and get sewn back up also. Jim Parker ---- Start of Message 128265 ---- From: wayne.a.anderson@a... Date: 2004-01-26 15:59:14 Subject: Re: What's a "carshop"?? Randy, I used to live by a huge railroad car maintenance facility that was occasionally referred to as a carshop. Wayne A. ---- Start of Message 128266 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-26 09:00:20 Subject: Veritas/Lee Valley scraper plane The new Lee Valley catalog offers a nifty-looking scraper plane - a #112 clone with the addition of a wider sole and an adjustable bowed blade. Has anyone used one? Care to comment? Blake ---- Start of Message 128267 ---- From: "John Meikrantz" Date: 2004-01-26 08:18:05 Subject: Fwd: Re: [oldtools] pink tools and missing parts Forgot to copy the list on this reply! On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 06:03:25 -0800, "John Meikrantz" said: > I don't have any spare blades to sell from my own type 2 Stanley 71, but > the folks over at > St. James Bay Tool Company (www.stjamesbaytoolco.com) sell a replacement > set of=20 > three cutters for $19.50. They also have a few other replacement parts > for this and > other Stanley planes. >=20 > John >=20 >=20 > On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 02:00:32 -0000, "danny kaye" > said: > > just scored a couple of things from *bay, a record 71 and a record > > chamfer shave. just three questions > >=20 > > the 71 is missing the 1/4 inch blade, are the record blades the same as > > stanley ones? and has anyone got a spare they would sell... > >=20 > > the chamfer shave is bright pink, was this a normal coulour for record? > >=20 --=20 http://www.fastmail.fm - And now for something completely different=85 ---- Start of Message 128268 ---- From: Gregory Isola Date: 2004-01-26 08:34:27 Subject: RE: I completed a project! Walt made a fancy jewelry box: http://www.geocities.com/wandrson/woodworking/jewelry_box.html ************************* Nice one, Walt. Thanks for sharing. The miters on your tray sides look great. How'd you join them? Just glue? Splines? Just wondering. Greg Isola Alameda, CA who has some mitered picture framing approaching quickly ---- Start of Message 128269 ---- From: Richard.Wilson@s... Date: 2004-01-26 16:30:59 Subject: Re: making pencil gauges Marcus asks about gauges . . . > I am intending to secure the fence with a brass thumb screw. My mortice gauge >has this arrangement and I notice that the thumbscrew screws through a nut >in the fence. There are 3 solutions I suggest you consider 1) With a hardwood for the stock, then, as Eric suggested, a coarse (BSW or better) engineers tap will provide a fixing for a brass screw. The matching die will cut the brass rod too. 2) Paul made mention of the captured nut, and this is mechanically a better solution. It's a little fiddly to prepare the recess from inside the mortice, and a square nut is easier to fit. As it doesn't need to be a nut, then a square of brass with threaded hole can be made up to make life easier - again - a tap to produce your own nut would be handy. Paraffin is the accepted lubricant for tapping brass by the way. Either of the above can incorporate a thin pressure plate recessed into the stock to prevent damage to the arm, this takes the pressure as the screw is revolved, preventing the top surface from being scratched or disrupted. 3) If you are able to make up 2) above, then you could equally make up a top fitted brass plate. cut out a brass shape - a circle to take the threaded hole, with 'ears' to take 2 brass screws. Mark the outline of this onto the top of the stock, and recess it into place. Old timers used candle soot to mark the places where it needed further fitting - soot the metal in the candle flame - try it in place, and cut away where the soot has transferred to the timber. When all is a good fit, very lightly countersink the 2 screw holes, *only* to the depth of the bottom of the screw slot, so that when you have them screwed in the screw is proud, then file off the screw head. If all is good, the join between screw and plate is invisible, and you have a spiffy brass inset on your ebony gauge. Finish to suit. Best make a pressure plate to protect such a spiffy work of art - see above :-) Pencil gauge - I use fingers mostly.. Richard Wilson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------- For information on Christian Salvesen PLC visit our website at www.salvesen.com. The information contained in this e-mail is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only; it may also be legally privileged and or price sensitive. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Christian Salvesen PLC has taken every reasonable precaution to ensure that any attachment to this e-mail has been swept for viruses. However, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. ---- Start of Message 128270 ---- From: Bill Kasper Date: 2004-01-26 08:41:48 Subject: Re: St. Roy and the stone age ah, yes, and "axe handles"... "There I begin to shape the old handle With the hatchet, and the phrase First learned from Ezra Pound Rings in my ears! 'When making an axe handle the pattern is not far off.'" first found on a yahoo search: http://www.sover.net/~nichael/nlc-poetry/gs1.html your site? best, bill On Jan 25, 2004, at 10:10 AM, Nichael Cramer wrote: > I won't take up any more bandwidth with this than necessary, > but if there's a galoot poet laureate, it is surely Gary Snyder. ---- Start of Message 128271 ---- From: Walter Anderson Date: 2004-01-26 08:50:20 Subject: RE: I completed a project! Gregory Isola said: > Nice one, Walt. Thanks for sharing. The miters on > your tray sides look great. How'd you join them? > Just glue? Splines? Just wondering. Thanks. The miters were joined by hand-cut splines and a hand chiseled mortise (?). The actual splines were maybe about 3/16" wide by 1/2" long and 1/8" Thick. If I had a thinner chisel I would have use a thinner spline. I was worried about the accuracy of the joint, but I laid the two adjoining pieces together with the join lining up and layed-out and cut each joint together. I don't know if this would work for a larger joint, but the sploppiness of the fit wasn't bad for such a small piece. -Walt ---- Start of Message 128272 ---- From: Nichael Cramer Date: 2004-01-26 11:50:06 Subject: Re: WTB Stanley #10 chipbreaker & a question Jonathan Peck wrote: >Does anybody have a spare chipbreaker for a Stanley #10 >(early vintage would be nice)? Please ping me off-list. [...] One small point to be aware of: There were two different types chip-breakers on the #10. There is the "standard" one, which is more or less like the "normal" chip-breakers on most Stanley bench planes (except, of course, for the "T-shape" of the busniness end). However, for a brief time around the late 1880's Stanley made a completely different type of chip-breaker. It was basically "flipped-over"; that is, the chip-breaker was still on top, but the chip-breaker-holding screw stuck out the _top_ (rather than being buried on the bottom, as in the "normal" case). (This makes it a lot easier to remove the blade and chip-breaker, of course, but it meant that the design of the chip-breaker and of the blade were significantly different [and, as a result, a real pain to find replacements for...] Given that Stanley only made this type of chip-breaker for about 10 years --before reverting to the original design-- suggests that it was not very popular.) For example, it is this type of "flipped-over" chip-breaker that Mike Dunbar shows in his book when discussing the #10. (Unfortunately, Dunbar doesn't mention that there's anything unusual or uncommon about his chip-breaker; consequently the instructions he gives for removing the blade, etc, are rather specialized.) As I say, these "flipped-over" types are somewhat rare, consequently it probably won't be a problem. But it is something to be aware of, especially when looking for one of an "early vintage". Nichael ---- Start of Message 128273 ---- From: NickNaylo@a... Date: 2004-01-26 11:51:28 Subject: Re: Galootaclaus sent something special - thank you! Your welcome, and its Foccacia bread and Shiraz now, Chardonay and quiche is so 80's. ;-) (G) > > I want to thank Michael and Greg and the rest of the BAGS who made > the exchange happen this year. When the call went out it was our > West Coast brethern who dropped their quiche and chardonnay and > stepped up in the best tradition of Galoot volunteers. Thanks > again. > ---- Start of Message 128274 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-26 16:58:19 Subject: Re: Bio/Introduction Doug Van Horn wrote: >The top is 'flat-ish', the base is pathetic, and the metal vise is too >small for the top thickness. Regardless, I loved building it and it >works well enough to allow me to plane and saw. > > > Ah hah! I see 3 urgent and important shop projects here. 1) re-plane the bench top to a "Knat's Kirby" (proper unit when measuring bench flatness,Jeff and Paddy) 2) Retrofit (with proper joints) extra bracing on the bench base. Or plywood trusses :-) 3) Excavate a mounting recess in the underside of the bench to allow proper fitting of the vice. Or buy a BIGGER vice. These 3 activities should prevent any unnatural deviation from proper galoot behaviour, like making projects for SWMBO :-) BugBear ---- Start of Message 128275 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-26 11:59:31 Subject: Plane sizes Hello GG's I've come to accept some basic standards for Stanley bench plane sizes: ie; #3=8"L, #4=9"L While I know that these measurement are varried in plane types from early to later, I am a little intruiged at the sizing on a couple of early types I have. I happened to have a Stanley #3 with a type 9 body and a #604 type 3 sitting side by side. I had do a double take, as they are almost identical in length (the #3 is 8+9/16"L and the #604 is 8+3/4"L). This would seem to add some grey area to the argument as to which is the better smoother, the #3 or the #4. As I don't have my other planes handy for comparison, can anyone help out with some measurements? I would like to build a model to track the changes in the sizing of these bench plane sizes. I'm also a little curious about the possible philosophy behind this. Regards Jonathan NYC ---- Start of Message 128276 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-26 16:59:23 Subject: Re: St. Roy and the stone age Blake Ashley wrote: >Some knives are now made with ceramic blades. I have never used one, >but if the ad hype is to be believed, they hold a fine edge. > > > At the risk of topic drift, they're sharpened by grinding, not flaking. Definitely nowhere near as sharp as the other edges being discussed. BugBear ---- Start of Message 128277 ---- From: "Eric Coyle " Date: 2004-01-26 16:56:11 Subject: Taylor Tenon machine question machine yes, but hand-machine... like this one.. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3268090758&cat- egory=4123 A real neat gizmo to be sure. Apparently used in repair/manufacture of pool cues. My question is whether it found it's application in the repair or in the manufacture side of things. Anyone got any good guesses or perhaps real knowledge to share? Eric ---- Start of Message 128278 ---- From: "John J Black" Date: 2004-01-26 12:16:24 Subject: RE: St. Roy and the stone age GG's, Blake Ashley wrote: Some knives are now made with ceramic blades. I have never used one, but if the ad hype is to be believed, they hold a fine edge. I've used ceramic blades in swivel leather knifes on occasion for 20 years. They hold a nice edge for a long time when cutting leather, but are hard to sharpen. I use diamond paste on a smooth surface to touch up the edge. My preference is still a high carbon or stainless blade though because they don't break when dropped. Best Regards, John John J Black (A Machigaloot) Email: john@j... Like I always say ... If it wasn't for me there wouldn't be anyone like me around ---- Start of Message 128279 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-26 10:20:07 Subject: Re: St. Roy and the stone age I suppose you need concoidal fracture to sharpen by flaking. A ceramic blade probably fractures like a coffee mug - I don't know the technical term for that. I was sniffing around the idea that whatever modifications made ceramics tough enough for a razor edge on a knife might be applicable to glass. I wonder if anyone has applied modern materials science to making glass hold an edge? Tougher glass and a method for micro-flaking so you can approach a straight edge, then you've got something! ---- Start of Message 128280 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-01-26 09:41:02 Subject: Re: What's a "carshop"?? Hi guys: Funk and Wagnalls College Standard of 1941 puts it this way: car 1. A vehicle for use on a railroad. 2. A wheeled vehicle, as an automobile; chariot. 3. The cage of an elevator. and so on--- The C E Jennings price list of 1913 markets two varieties of "Car Bits": a "Solid center" type, like the modern Irwins and an "Improved Lip and Spur Car Bit" in a Jennings double twist pattern. The first bit is described as being "especially adapted for ELECTRICIANS and LINEMEN, and for deep and heavy boring." Presumably, most "car shops" were up and running at this time, and electricians were the growth industry Jennings was aiming at--automobiles were still the exception, not the rule, and Ford had yet to begin mass production. those were the days; gAM in car-strangled Seattle "especially useful for carshops" > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128281 ---- From: "Foster, Jim" Date: 2004-01-26 11:48:08 Subject: RE: Left handed veneer saw? They don't cut at a 90 deg angle. Different ones cut at different angles to get varying amounts of edge showing on the mats. Don't know if that would matter too much for veneer, but in any case, this does sound like a good=20 MIY (Make It Yourself) opportunity. =20 Jim Foster Minnesnowta > -----Original Message----- > From: Jack Kamishlian [mailto:Kamishlianj@w...] > Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 4:41 PM > To: oldtools > Subject: Re: [oldtools] Left handed veneer saw? >=20 >=20 > How about mat cutters, as in picture framing? They have to do > essentially the same thing, and they may come cheaper. >=20 ---- Start of Message 128282 ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-01-26 12:53:00 Subject: RE: St. Roy and the stone age The tough ceramics (back a few years ago) mixed in a second kind of ceramic so that there would be lots of tiny particles to stop cracks from propagating, or under stress, would transform to a different structure to blunt the crack. Neither technique is likely to work with glasses (I believe)since glasses, by definition, don't have the grain boundaries needed for the first technique, and any structure that a glass turns into (devitrifies) is likely to be *more* brittle than the glass itself. Glass's brittleness comes from the presence of small surface defects (scratches, mostly). As soon as one of these is put under tension, the crack grows really fast and the piece falls apart. To solve this problem, there are several techniques: * Coat the surface immediately after production to protect it against scratches. This works well for fiber reinforcements since the coating only has to protect the glass until the epoxy or polyester encapsulates it. Since ordinary water is corrosive to freshly scratched glass (wetting a scratched piece of glass makes it even easier to break), this technique is especially useful if the glass is going to get wet in service. * Put the surface in compression (permanently) by quenching it right after it's formed or by using a chemical treatment afterwards -- this is "tempered" glass. The residual stress counteracts the tensile stresses seen in service, and the defects never get the chance to get bigger. Of course, as you might guess, the compressive surface stress is matched by a tension stress in the core of the glass. All of this residual stress is stored energy, and when the piece finally does crack, the energy is released spectacularly with glass flying everywhere and breaking into lots of little bits. * Etch the surface defects to blunt them -- sharp scratches are much worse as stress concentrators than rounded groove-like scratches. Doesn't help that much. Ken "Made a few mugs/vases from molten glass once" Meltsner ---- Start of Message 128283 ---- From: "CheekyGeek" Date: 2004-01-26 09:55:27 Subject: re: Plane sizes Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but it seems that the 8" or 9" measurement comes -not from the overall length of the plane- but from a measurement of the length of the sides. Put another way, if you measured the length of the perfect rectangle of the sole (not counting the nose or heel bumps) you'd get the 8" or 9" lengths. (I've only got one plane in the office to check at the moment, so I may be all wet). Darren Addy Kearney, Nebraska ---- Start of Message 128284 ---- From: Kirk Eppler Date: 2004-01-26 10:13:23 Subject: Re: Left handed veneer saw? There are 45 and 90 degree mat cutters available from Logan. See them at Dick Blick Art Supply, http://www.dickblick.com/zz171/15/products.asp?param=0&ig_id=1024 No affilitation, other than I have the 45, but not the 90. "Foster, Jim" from Minnesnowta wrote: > They don't cut at a 90 deg angle. Different ones cut at > different angles to get varying amounts of edge showing on > the mats. -- Kirk Eppler who's got his daughter trained to say Minne Snow Taaa as 3 words. Eppler.Kirk@g... ---- Start of Message 128285 ---- From: Ted Shuck Date: 2004-01-26 12:45:55 Subject: RE: Left handed veneer saw? Scott asks about a veneer cutter: This tool doesn't look like a saw at all, more like a slitting device. The metal plate on the side looks like it contains a single-edge razor blade, or something similar, angled so that the rear end is down and the front end up. If this were angled so that the rear end drooped just the thickness of the veneer, you should get a nice cut. The cutter that is shown does not have the blade registered against one face of the tool. If you are cutting against a batten, you need to allow for this. The horizontal U shaped metal thingy is a fence which gives clearance for the veneer, useful for edge trimming. Looks like it can be removed for cutting against a batten. I'd think you could make the handle any shape you want. Attach a blade in a mortise on one side so that the blade can be rotated to drop the rear end of the blade to give a slitting cut. Attach the blade with a bolt and wingnut through the body. I'd think that one of those utility knife blades would work well, I think they have a hole in the middle? The fence could be made from a block of wood with a saw kerf for the veneer clearance. Does any of this make sense? Ted ---- Start of Message 128286 ---- From: "Tony Zaffuto" Date: 2004-01-26 14:00:10 Subject: Bio/introduction Friends, Please allow me a few minutes of your time to introduce myself. My name is Tony Zaffuto and I live in DuBois, Pennsylvania. I have a loving wife of 25 years, 3 daughters, ages 23, 21 and 4 (gee whiz--how did that happen) and a house beagle (wife and beagle seeing Dr. Phil to learn how to coexist). I'm not quite sure what I do and the older I get (51) the more I know less about. I started out in life (after graduating from Penn State with a degree in Human Development) as a carpenter's apprentice. I spent fifteen years of slogging through mud, freezing my butt off and nearly falling off of a dozen roofs and/or scaffolds. My father was a carpenter before me and was my boss through most of the time I was in the trade. Being young and foolish at that time, I was always on the lookout for an easier way. Well, there was another way, but not necessarily easier! I, along with an associate, started a small powder metal parts manufacturing business in 1989. In the years since, we have added an extensive machine shop and a stamping operation. Times got very lean in 2001, but we survived and are again growing! Short plug here--support America--buy American! Don't believe any of the politician's hype about a global economy--we give, they take! I never gave up my tools, and for the past several years have discovered the pleasures of hand tools (still have my powered shop). I have built numerous projects, but nothing that is good enough to even get me classified as a neophyte galoot. But I'm trying, and most of my work is now predominantly by hand and is all shellac. Other interests are American history (centered on the Civil War and reconstruction) and my Harley (been riding motorcycles since I was 12). My wife and I are avid antique collectors. My shop is a hodge-podge of whatever catches my eye--12 miter boxes, 2 post drills, several dozen old handplanes to name but a few pieces. I also have some new Lie-Neilsens. Anyhow, I "lurked" for two or three months (yes--I'm the bald-headed troll peeking out from below the porch slats, leering at every sexy 604 or 603 that wanders overhead). I probably won't have a lot to say, but I do want to thank each and everyone of you for the knowledge and enjoyment I've gained for the short time since I discovered the list! Tony Zaffuto ---- Start of Message 128287 ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-01-26 14:21:12 Subject: Re: Casting Sand? Rex wrote..... > I understand there exists a bunch of collectors (not us right?) > that accumulates factory defective Stanley tools and correct me if I > am wrong, Stanley stamped some indication mark on batches of > defective planes (tools) that were allowed to enter the market place. > .......... this group of collectors values > these planes at a much higher level than "perfect" planes from the > same era. This collecting phenomena might be similar to the stamp > collector's higher value pension for upside down airplane stamps;-)? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- I have seen a good many Stanley Planes and Chisels stamped "Imperfect" from the factory.Sometimes the problem is pretty obvious like the 9 1/2 that had the rear threaded hole come right on out the bottom of the sole [!] others can be hard to notice like a slightly off grind line on a chisel.A couple I never could quite figure out what was wrong with them . The first time I listed an "imperfect" Plane on ebay,[if I remember right a real nice 60 1/2 whose side was slightly missground] I thought like Rex that I had something.Went for about a third what a nice and more common "Perfect" 60 1/2 would have went for. Since then after no better luck with other "Imperfect" Stanley tools I don't fool with them unless for parts. I did have a couple Disston Saws that said something like "Defective for sale to Disston Employees only" that did OK but nothing like you would think judging from what you would have to believe is a pretty uncommon saw.I bought them both from an ancient Disston Worker and have never seen any others I don't think....and ain't really to worried if I don't Now as to a Stanley Plane being so mint it still has it's original "Casting Sand" in the corners,.... come on Boys! Have to give the seller an A for effort with that whopper but this fish ain't going to be jumping into that boat.........Todd, who got a plane the other day that while pretty rusty looks like it still has it's original finish it had before it was Japanned....Now that's a rare one! ---- Start of Message 128288 ---- From: Brian Buckner Date: 2004-01-26 11:57:42 Subject: Re: gunstock scraper Darrell asks some questions about a gunstock scraper that I made for fellow Galoot Konrad Sauer..... >>>Very cool. I took a few quick measurements and drew a rather >>>imprecise sketch on a scrap of paper, thinking "hey, this looks >>>pretty high on the useful/gizmo scale and fairly quick to make". Thanks. Yes, very useful AND easy/quick* to make. >>>How is the escapement shaped (didn't look at that when I made my >>>sketch)? I've cut the sides down along a curve to the sole. Hope this >>>supports the cutter OK. I file my escapement at about a 20 degree angle. It's not really that critical, you just want enough space in there to avoid shaving jams. The curved sides are cool but not sure why you would go to the trouble (it has to be harder to file than leaving them straight and it's a feature that can't be seen unless you pull the shoe off). Leaving it straight would give more holding power and support to the blade but I wouldn't go as far as saying that your approach has caused a problem. If it chatters a lot then it may be. >>>Is the mouth block (filed mine out of some scrap bronze) relieved at >>>all on the sole, or should be square to the iron? I think I should >>>file a bit of an angle on the sole. Is that right? Mine kind of >>>works, sort of, but not nearly as nicely as Konrad's. No, unlike most other scrapes and shaves this design has the blade 90 degrees to the sole. The sole is so short (I make mine with no more than 9/16" of total sole length) that I don't think it would matter if you did introduce some angle to the sole. You might try filing a slight round to the leading edge of the sole. I do this when I want the scrape to work in a very tight radius. Otherwise for long curves I think the dead flat sole works best. I have also found that a scraper blade with a bevel of about 40 degrees or so put on before the hook is drawn (like you would treat a blade in a #80 scraper) rather than a blade with the typical 90 degree & hook (like a card scraper) works best in this type of scrape. The hook should be very small - otherwise it wants to cut too aggressively (for my taste). Also, adjusting the blade is finicky. It seems like there exists a tiny "sweet spot" where it cuts just right. A tiny bit beyond that and it cuts too aggressively while just shy of it and it doesn't cut at all. Good luck! Best, Brian. *when compared to making a metal dovetailed infill plane! ---- Start of Message 128289 ---- From: Walter Anderson Date: 2004-01-26 12:26:38 Subject: RE: Bio/introduction Welcome aboard! Tony Zaffuto introduced himself and said: > Other interests are American history (centered > on the Civil War and reconstruction) ... You can tell you were educated in the North (as was I), when I moved down south I was informed by my history teacher that it is properly refered to as either the "War between the States" or "The War of Northern Agression" ;-) Walt in Dallas ---- Start of Message 128290 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-01-26 15:41:31 Subject: Re: Neander Norm > is described where he built the screen. He used > shellac in the finishing process... After the stain > and before the topcoat of poly ;-) That's very interesting. What was his rationale for putting shellac between the stain and poly? I could see using a spit coat of shellac before the stain but otherwise I'm at a loss for its function. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 128291 ---- From: "Mike Duchaj" Date: 2004-01-26 16:03:52 Subject: Re: Bio/introduction Welcome to the porch tony! > hodge-podge of whatever catches my eye--12 miter boxes, 2 post drills, > Obviously, these are the signs of a propoerous individual. Such wealth boggles the mind. Mind that slope over by there. Mike Duchaj Elgin, IL ---- Start of Message 128292 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-26 13:20:59 Subject: Re: Left handed veneer saw? > > The fence could be made from a block of wood with > a saw kerf for the veneer clearance. > > Does any of this make sense? > I came late to this discussion. Why would anyone want to cut veneer with a mat knife? The correct instrument is one of those little veneer saws that have teeth on 2 edges. Veneer is usually cut in a stack with the veneer saw using a batten for a straight edge. The purpose of this is matched edges. The saw is ambidextrous. The teeth are sharpened just like you would sharpen a knife. As many soft strokes as is necessary are used to cut through the stack while the saw is held with the blade flat against a thick batten so the angle of cut remains constant. You can cut single pieces the same way. If you are cutting a single piece of veneer, you can also use a very sharp chisel that has been specially prepared for this purpose and is used for no other purpose. It is also held flat against the batten and used like a knife, or it can be used freehand for curves. This old fashioned method is worth learning. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 128293 ---- From: Steven & Anne Nelson Fisher Date: 2004-01-26 16:00:36 Subject: Re: What's a "carshop"?? > I used to live by a huge railroad car maintenance facility that was > occasionally referred to as a carshop. > > Wayne A. I still do. The railroad shops here don't do the business they used to, but they are still called carshops by some of the old-timers. Here in Brainerd, MN the yards built box cars and rail ties and serviced engines too. We've got a couple of super-fund sites to remind us of the work (including a lead foundry). The remaining buildings are cool in a galootish way. Certainly they were built with hand tools. One of the benefits of working at the shops included being able to buy truckloads of car siding and box car timbers for very little money. Thus, lots of structures around here are built with those materials--my house and garage for example. Two weeks ago I stopped at the local antique maul and saw an old "car" jack. It was HUGE--like nearly every railroad tool found around here. (Looking for a 4' wrench? Come to Brainerd.) It stood about 30-36" tall and must have weighed 75-90 lbs. It could easily lift up a box car. Last week I checked to see about another tool and the jack was gone. Apparently house-movers snap 'em up right away. Steve in Brainerd, MN ---- Start of Message 128294 ---- From: sepost@i... (Scott Post) Date: 2004-01-26 17:21:43 Subject: Re: Left handed veneer saw?; > Jim Thompson wrote: > > I came late to this discussion. Why would anyone want to cut veneer > with a mat knife? The correct instrument is one of those little veneer > saws that have teeth on 2 edges. Veneer is usually cut in a stack with > the veneer saw using a batten for a straight edge. The purpose of this > is matched edges. The saw is ambidextrous. Do you know of a source for an ambidextrous veneer knife? I've searched high and low on the web and they're all decidedly right handed. Yes, they have teeth on both edges but the handles bend in such a way that they can't comfortably be used left handed against the left side of a batten. My understanding is that the teeth are on both edges to allow them blade to be reversed on the handle to get double the life before sharpening. It wouldn't matter so much if the handles didn't have that bend to allow finger clearance. I did some test cuts with a regular knife to see if I could use a right handed veneer saw in my left hand and it's extremely awkward since it's difficult to hold the batten down with the right hand while doing so. The right arm has to pass either over or under the left arm. I know - in the old days a student got a ruler smack on the hand and a lecture in conforming to a right handed world, but I don't give in so easily. If nothing else I'll make a new handle for a regular veneer saw. If I were king I'd make everyone work left handed: planes, saws, marking knives, etc. They'd learn just how ambidextrous some of these tools are. -- Scott Post sepost@i... http://home.insightbb.com/~sepost/ ---- Start of Message 128295 ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-01-26 16:34:05 Subject: Re: St. Roy and the stone age Hah! Wait a minute. When SWMBO was learning knapping, I recall hours and hours and hours she spent on the deck turning a pile of large stones into drifts of small flakes, sticking deer antlers into her hand, wearing out leather palm pads, etc. etc. This is *not* a simple pick the shard up , poke at it with an antler and What-O! one has a beautiful knife edge. The only part that was easy in her Ancient Technologies class was kneading clay. For that the village maidens took off their shoes, hiked up their whatevers, and started stomping and squishing while the men offered encouragement , helpfully pointed out spots they had missed, and generously offered sips from their beers if the ladies seem to flag a bit in the heat. John Lederer Oregon, Wisconsin Blake Ashley wrote: >I Tougher glass and a >method for micro-flaking so you can approach a straight edge, then >you've got something! > >A > > ---- Start of Message 128296 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-01-26 17:36:26 Subject: Re: Neander Norm > > is described where he built the screen. He used > > shellac in the finishing process... After the stain > > and before the topcoat of poly ;-) > > That's very interesting. What was his rationale for putting shellac > between the stain and poly? I could see using a spit coat of > shellac before the stain but otherwise I'm at a loss for its > function. > > -- > Cheers --- Larry Marshall > Quebec City, QC Folks, I watched Norm yesterday. It looked to me like a new show. He built what he called a butterfly table. The piece was made of cherry. For the finish, Norm first used a water based stain, which was dark brown (I missed the formula while retrieving a beverage). Then he applied a coat of shellac. Then he sanded. He then applied a dark glaze. And finally, finished with 3 or 4 coats of poly. I'd love to hear folks opinion of this process. Al Perreault Westminster, MA ---- Start of Message 128297 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-26 15:43:45 Subject: Re: St. Roy and the stone age I figured as much AND I don't think you are going to get an acceptably straight edge for woodworking using an antler. But you might get some great curved blades with practice. ---- Start of Message 128298 ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-01-26 17:50:34 Subject: Re: Neander Norm Several people have asked about the use of shellac with other finishes: What was his rationale for putting shellac >> between the stain and poly? I could see using a spit coat of >> shellac before the stain but otherwise I'm at a loss for its >> function. > > I'd love to hear folks opinion of this process. > Shellac has a great property that it is not affected by other finishes, and therefore can be used to separate otherwise incompatible finishes. For example, one could an oil based stain, then a coat of shellac, and then a top coat of lacquer. Lacquer and oil based finish will react with each other. Shellac effectively separates them, and sometimes adds a bit more depth. I think Jeff Jewitt and other pros mention this. Regards, Chris ---- Start of Message 128299 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-26 14:47:20 Subject: Re: Left handed veneer saw?; The handle is not hardened so you can bend it to suit your way of holding it. Remove the blade, put the end of the handle in the vise and bend away. Use heat if necessary. Wrap wood handle in wet rag. On Monday, January 26, 2004, at 02:21 PM, Scott Post wrote: > > Do you know of a source for an ambidextrous veneer knife? I've > searched > high and low on the web and they're all decidedly right handed. Yes, > they have teeth on both edges but the handles bend in such a way that > they can't comfortably be used left handed against the left side of > a batten. My understanding is that the teeth are on both edges to > allow > them blade to be reversed on the handle to get double the life before > sharpening. It wouldn't matter so much if the handles didn't have that > bend to allow finger clearance. > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 128300 ---- From: Jack Kamishlian Date: 2004-01-26 17:59:10 Subject: Re: Neander Norm I'd guess that he did that to keep the stain from dissolving into the poly or to provide a good base on which to apply the poly. I'd probably do the same. Cheers, Jack in Endwell, NY 1/26/04 12:41:31 PM, Larry Marshall wrote: > >That's very interesting. What was his rationale for putting shellac >between the stain and poly? I could see using a spit coat of >shellac before the stain but otherwise I'm at a loss for its >function. ---- Start of Message 128301 ---- From: Thomas Conroy Date: 2004-01-26 15:20:07 Subject: RE: Experimenting with augurs Galoots: Andrew Midkiff wrote: "... my understanding from previous threads had been that the course thread augers were good for softer woods as the wider threads bit into the soft wood better. The fine threads bit into the hard woods well. The question is around what benefit is granted by boring more slowly? Does it make a cleaner hole if going all the way through? In my current application, drilling out closed mortises, the course thread bits are working fine...." I have Jennings bits with fine and medium screws up to 1", but only coarse Irwins above that. With a big bit, having a coarse lead screw means it takes a lot more force to turn the brace; putting a 1 1/4" hole through hard maple, or even cherry, with a coarse bit is a pain, and I've often wished for fine Jennings in the larger sizes. The effect is probably not as noticable with smaller bits. With hard woods (not hardwoods, hard woods) you probably need the extra mechanical advantage of a fine lead screw more than you would need it with soft woods (again, not softwoods). I had always assumed that the fine screw would pull the bit through faster, but today I put two 1" and two 1 1/4" holes through 1 3/4" teak, and counted the turns. They both took 25-30 turns for the lead screw to stick out of the other side although the bigger bit looked to have one turn in the lead screw for every turn in the lead screw of the smaller bit. Don't have an explanation for this one, and it doesn't accord with my memory of previous experience. I had always assumed that a fine lead screw would give a cleaner hole just as a fine-set plane gives a cleaner surface than a coarse-set plane; and certainly my big Irwins chop up the inside of the hole more than I would like. But in my mind this cleaner hole was connected with taking a smaller bite of wood on each turn, so getting the same making of turns with coarse and fine lead screws has me confused here too. Tom Conroy Berkeley __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128302 ---- From: Christopher Swingley Date: 2004-01-26 15:03:25 Subject: Re: Neander Norm Al, * Alan Perreault [2004-Jan-26 13:36 AKST]: > For the finish, Norm first used a water based stain, which was dark > brown (I missed the formula while retrieving a beverage). Then he > applied a coat of shellac. Then he sanded. He then applied a dark > glaze. And finally, finished with 3 or 4 coats of poly. > > I'd love to hear folks opinion of this process. I've used a similar technique on red oak: * apply a dye stain to uniformly darken the oak * apply a few light coats of shellac to seal the stain (and protect the wood from the next step) * apply a dark gel stain, wiping most of the stain off, resulting in dye stain "trapped" in the pores * apply a finish coat of shellac In my case, the middle layer of shellac was used to keep the gel stain from getting to the wood so that only the pores were receiving the dark gel stain. The result was a dark oak, but that had even darker grain patterns. I got the technique (and the dye stain) from Jeff Jewett's web site. It's a mission oak staining, and is a common technique for emphasizing grain in an open pore wood. I've seen photos where folks use a light dye stain for the first color, and then a bright color (like pink?!) to dye the pores. Not my cup of tea, but it is a striking finish. A bit of this process is shown at: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/woodworking/mag_cab2.phtml Chris -- Christopher S. Swingley University of Alaska Fairbanks cswingle@i... http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/ OldTools Searchable Archive: http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ http://archive.oldtools.org/ ---- Start of Message 128303 ---- From: Alan Womack Date: 2004-01-26 15:59:54 Subject: re: Neander Norm >> Folks, >> I watched Norm yesterday. It looked to me like a new show. He built >> what he called a butterfly table. The piece was made of cherry. For >> the finish, Norm first used a water based stain, which was dark >> brown (I missed the formula while retrieving a beverage). Then he >> applied a coat of shellac. Then he sanded. He then applied a dark >> glaze. And finally, finished with 3 or 4 coats of poly. >> I'd love to hear folks opinion of this process. Get a TIVO, you will NEVER miss it again.. And you really won't care what day it's on or what time it is, your television shows will just be there, some you never knew were on. My TIVO picked up American Workshop for me automatically. I LOVE MY TIVO, it _will_ change you life. Now the history channel old tools series thing I will have to program into my Tivo now so I don't forget since it's months away.. Alan Epson Inkjet Printer FAQ: http://home.att.net/~arwomack01/index.html 24 Days to MH automation: http://alan.firebin.net/24_days.html -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ---- Start of Message 128304 ---- From: Chris Berger Date: 2004-01-26 19:13:52 Subject: Re: Neander Norm > Get a TIVO, you will NEVER miss it again.. And you really won't > care what day it's on or what time it is, your television shows > will just be there, some you never knew were on. My TIVO picked up > American Workshop for me automatically. I LOVE MY TIVO, it _will_ > change you life. > > Now the history channel old tools series thing I will have to program > into my Tivo now so I don't forget since it's months away.. > > Alan > Alan, may I be so ignorant and expose it to all galoots: What is TIVO? Thanks in advance. Chris ---- Start of Message 128305 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-01-26 19:24:07 Subject: Re: Taylor Tenon machine question Hi Eric & All, I used to have one of the Taylor tools Eric asked about and I also had a copy of the patent (not in DATAMP). I sold the two together and am a bit fuzzy on some of the details of how it worked and such. The patent does specify it was intended for forming tenons on billiard cues. I'll guess that would primarily be when making the cues, but cues do need retipping often enough that it might well also have found use in repairing them. I do recall that I was surprised to find that the patent connected them to pool cues. I bought mine at a PATINA auction and it wasn't an item I'd marked as having any interest in bidding on. But when it was being held up, Bud Brown (creater of the Brown auctions) made a comment about it being a pool cue tool. I did have some other pool cue tools and thought I must have missed something in the preview, so I bid it up and got it. When looking at it after the runner brought it, I was quite disappointed, quite sure it had nothing to do with pool cues, and thought I'd been stuck with a tool I otherwise would have passed on. I was sure it was simply for cutting tenons on furniture legs or such; nothing wrong with that and I had several tools that did that - but much older and sexier ones than the Taylor. But the patent confirmed that Bud had been right. I still liked the other pool cue tools I had much more than the Taylor because they too were older and sexier. Best Wishes, Solomons Bob ---- Start of Message 128306 ---- From: Larry Marshall Date: 2004-01-26 19:28:08 Subject: Re: Neander Norm > > For the finish, Norm first used a water based stain, which was > > dark brown (I missed the formula while retrieving a beverage). > > Then he applied a coat of shellac. Then he sanded. He then > > applied a dark glaze. And finally, finished with 3 or 4 coats > > of poly. Ah ha! I bet this was the same procedure being reported before only they left out the glaze. Suddenly the use of the shellac (between a stain and a glaze) makes perfect sense. -- Cheers --- Larry Marshall Quebec City, QC http://www.woodnbits.com ---- Start of Message 128307 ---- From: "Steve lineback" Date: 2004-01-27 00:28:30 Subject: re: Veritas/Lee Valley scraper plane Lee Vally had a booth at the wood show in Indy this weekend. Made a pest of myself playing with all the toys there including the 112 copy. Didn't take it apart to check construction but it was a sweet user. They wern't cheating either they had hard maple for the demo though with pretty straight grain.I woul like to hear from someone who has had a chance to use this and the LN to see if they think the LN is worth about twice the price. The one thing to keep in mind is that the nice guys in the Lee Vally booth tune and demo planes for a living your results may vary. Steve who is very glad he left the credit cards at home. ---- Start of Message 128308 ---- From: "Charlie Driggs" Date: 2004-01-26 19:45:41 Subject: Re: More Brace Degreasing > Has anyone tried the soak it in kerosene or Todds Gunk on a > 2100 type where its all enclosed? Or should I just bite the > bullet and follow Georges step by step an taking it apart and > cleaning it? > Steve IIRC, I tried something similar when I got my 2101. When I brought it home, it's ratchet didn't ratchet. I read George's directions, and decided to try a quicker way -- unscrew the cover and stick the whole chuck / head end of the brace into a gallon can of carburetor & parts cleaner (don't know if these are still available at auto parts stores ... come with a steel parts dipping basket included inside). In 15 minutes or so, the green goo was partially dissolved and soft enough to allow dissassembly and cleaning per George's expert instructions. Charlie Driggs Newark DE ---- Start of Message 128309 ---- From: Jon McCoy Date: 2004-01-26 16:53:35 Subject: Re: Neander Norm --- Chris Berger wrote: > Alan, may I be so ignorant and expose it to all galoots: > What is TIVO? See www.tivo.com for the marketing hype. Remember when you got your first VCR, and you could tape a show to watch later? Same stuff, 25 years later. Tell the TiVo which shows you like, and it will find and save them for you to watch. And it will find similar shows to watch, as well. Regardless of when St. Roy is on, you'll be able to watch it whenever you like. Always something worthewhile to watch; never have to channel-surf again. It's actually hard to explain how revolutionary it is, until you've had one yourself. But it really will change the way you watch TV. -jon- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128310 ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-01-26 16:55:49 Subject: Stanley No. 75 Bullnose Plane GG's I have acquired a Stanley No.75 Bullnose plane with a problem. According to "Patrick's Blood and Gore", this small 4" plane has a lever cap that has a thumb screw to hold it and the iron in place. There are two lugs cast into the top section under which the lever cap fits. Sometimes the lever cap is snapped and repaired. The plane can choke easily since the lever cap serves as the chip breaker and it sits well back from the cutting edge. Well, the bottom half of the lever cap is broken off and missing. If any Galoot has a lever cap for this little guy that you can part with, please contact me off list. I don't care about the japanning because this will strictly be a user. Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 128311 ---- From: "Bruce Chrustie" Date: 2004-01-26 21:52:44 Subject: RE: Re: milk paint woes I know this is a late reply but what I find is that I need to mix it in the blender for a good 5+ minutes to get rid of the lumps and have it mixed properly. 2 coats and you will have excellent hide even over a dark stain underneath. -----Original Message----- From: New World Magic [mailto:newworldmagic@c...] Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 9:13 AM To: oldtools Subject: [oldtools] Re: milk paint woes Just and FYI: I've used this product, and its great. You can vary the covering power by varying the amount of water used to mix it up. No matter what you do, it tends to be lumpy. I never have managed to get a "perfect" (lump free) finish out of it. I usually use milk paint on "rustic" projects though, so it fits in OK.... --JD ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard J. Hucker" To: "oldtools" Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 2:00 AM Subject: [oldtools] Re: milk paint woes Andy Said: "My wife likes milk paint but I'm finding it rather strange to work with. Am i doing something wrong?" Andy: Try this site . . . . http://www.milkpaint.com/index.html Regards, Col. Huck ---- Start of Message 128312 ---- From: Michele Minch Date: 2004-01-26 22:24:58 Subject: What's a "carshop"?? On Monday, January 26, 2004, at 12:06 AM, Randy Roeder wrote: > Occasionally when looking through old tool catalogs you come across the > illustration of an over-sized, heavy duty brace or breast drill with > the > notation that it is "especially useful for carshops" > > I imagine we're not talking about automotive stuff here? > GG Right here in lovely downtown Wilmington Delawhere we have two carshops. The first is the old PA railroad engine and carshop where the GG-1's and heavyweight (wooden) passenger carswere serviced. The place has been there since the 1890's. It is now the Amtrak engine and car shop where they repair, well, engines and cars for the NE area. The second is a car repair shop in the middle of town that used to be associated with the PA RR, but is now in private hands. I knocked on the door one random day and asked if i could see what they were doing and the owner said Sure, come on in. They repair subway and rapid transit cars that have been in accidents, and they were repairing 4 cars from Boston when I was there. Turns out when two subway cars collide the damage is always identical in both cars, so they estimate and order parts for one, then double the estimate and duplicate the parts on the second. They had a lot of hand tools for shaping the body plates (along with a lot of p*w*r shaping tools) - much like a giant auto collision shop, so that's your Hand Tool content. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 128313 ---- From: "Evan Smith" Date: 2004-01-27 04:01:19 Subject: WTB, tools made in Goshen MASS (and Co. info.) Hello Galoots, I'm looking to buy tools made in Goshen MASS. [UNION TOOL CO., H.L.NARAMORE, H. BARRUS etc.(?)] I would also greatly appreciate any historical information folks might be able to share about Goshen MA tool companies. I don't yet have a DAT book. Thanks, Evan Smith PS: When I was younger, I made the mistake of repeatedly pelting my big brother with rose-hips while chanting "ya big galoot-ya big galoot." He got so pissed he jumped clear down from tarring the barn roof and proceeded to tar and rose-hip MY HEAD. One of those things you only want to try once, and anyway, whose the galoot now? ---- Start of Message 128314 ---- From: "Bret Rochotte" Date: 2004-01-26 23:28:42 Subject: Israel White side bead questions Hello; I found an I. White 3/8 side bead with some problems. It has the "G" stamp with the makers initials, T.D. There are some splits that have caused the groove holding the boxing to spread, causing the boxing to loosen. The wedge was missing so I made a replacement. There was an iron in the lot of planes and irons I bought that fits the profile stamped "HILDICK" with a roman numeral VI also. No Hildick in Pollak, so I assume Hildick made irons only. I have seen this on other irons I have. Is it possible that this is the correct iron? Also, should I try to fix the boxing or just put it on the shelf, adding it to my collection. Yea I said collection. These woodies are starting to multiply like rabbits. Thank you, Bret Bret and Wendy Rochotte New Bremen, Ohio rochotte@b... ---- Start of Message 128315 ---- From: "Steve Knight" Date: 2004-01-26 21:42:01 Subject: last infill maybe forever. This may be the last infill I have. It has been my user infill for a couple of years. It is made from ziricote wood in an unusual shape. It has a steel =BC" thick sole and 3/16" bronze sides dovetailed together. = It features one of the first 4 prototype custom made Japanese irons. With a nice tight mouth this plane can plane almost any wood out there. Most of it going against the grain if you so desire. The iron is bedded at 47 degrees. It does have some glue or finish spots on the wood and a few small dents. But I refinished the sides and it looks nice. The sole has a couple of scratches but they are pretty much only visual. The glue may come off as I kept the body waxed a little prying may just pop it off. I planed quite a few planes with this plane and I hate to sell it. But I need a new tool and this is about the only way I can justify buying it. The plane comes fully sharpened and ready to use.=20 Do you like rare tools? Well this is a one of a kind plane. The only one I made that had this shape and this wood and only one of 4 irons in the world. Think a Stanley #1 is rare there are more then one of them (G) I can provide more pictures if you want. I would like to get 500.00 including shipping. That is 100.00 off my normal price. http://www.knight-toolworks.com/web_temp_pics/jinfill1.JPG http://www.knight-toolworks.com/web_temp_pics/jinfill2.JPG ---- Start of Message 128316 ---- From: "Andrew F in Australia" Date: 2004-01-27 17:42:47 Subject: RE: Left handed veneer saw?; -----Original Message----- From: Andrew & Brigitte Fairbank [mailto:fairbank@i...] Sent: Tuesday, 27 January 2004 5:39 PM To: Scott Post; Oldtools Subject: RE: [oldtools] Left handed veneer saw?; Retitled post: How to roll-your-own veneer knife in under an hour Scott asks: Do you know of a source for an ambidextrous veneer knife Scott, no source of an ambidextrous knife but here's how we (trade) make ours. Go to a local engineering shop and ask for a scrap machine hacksaw blade - approx 1-1.5" wide by 1/8" - 3/16" thick Fashion the knife using a cutting blade in an @ngle grinder - keep the back straight and make a single cutting edge going from the top of the knife to the bottom. Approx 1/2 -1 hours work go to whoa Poor ASCII art follows: ********************************************************** ** * ** * (Curved end to make life easier on your hand ** * Smooth off sharp corners) ** * ************************************************* (Pointy end - LH Bevel is on this face as you're looking at the knife) Hope that this helps. Andrew ---- Start of Message 128317 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" Date: 2004-01-27 07:40:57 Subject: RE: Loosening Spokeshave cutter : -----Original Message----- : From: tomthornton [mailto:tomthornton@n...] : Sent: 26 January 2004 15:25 : To: oldtools : Subject: [oldtools] Loosening Spokeshave cutter : : The big problem comes from only being able to work one side : at a time so any movement is going to be very small then : you have to switch to the other side. Whatever people do, I'd recommend a method that applies equal pressure to each tang. Why? Because I have a lovely spokeshave with a fractured blade caused by over-enthusiastic tapping on one tang only. It fractured near the bend of the tang and works quite well when re-assembled. fortunately the configuration of the fracture is such that the two parts interlock quite firmly. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK Email: amgron@c... http://www.amgron.clara.net ---- Start of Message 128318 ---- From: "danny kaye" Date: 2004-01-27 10:04:33 Subject: Re: pink tools and missing parts it was ebay #3267927862, I don't think that pink is a faded red, unless the photo is dodgy, it's still not here :( danny ---- Start of Message 128319 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-27 10:17:25 Subject: Re: Veritas/Lee Valley scraper plane Steve lineback wrote: >> The one thing to keep in mind is that the nice guys in the >> Lee Valley booth tune and demo planes >> for a living your results may vary. This is true of any encounter at a trade booth. That being said, the techniques of plane tuning are mainly simple and widely know. I don't think a "booth tuned" tool is going to outperform a galoot tuned tool. BugBear ---- Start of Message 128320 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-27 10:22:39 Subject: Re: pink tools and missing parts danny kaye wrote: >it was ebay #3267927862, I don't think that pink is a faded red, unless >the photo is dodgy, it's still not here :( > > > Ah! That's an idiot and a paint package, trying to improve (in good faith, we hope) a photograph. It looks like he's done sharpening and "colour enhance" with more enthusiasm than care :-) (nice price, BTW; it's in very good condition) BugBear ---- Start of Message 128321 ---- From: "danny kaye" Date: 2004-01-27 10:38:44 Subject: Re: St. Roy and the stone age they are not the same kind of edge, not that much sharper than the edge I have on metal kitchen knives, the good thing is they hold an edge for ages, (the company gives a free regrind after 2 years and I havenot needed it yet after 3 years), the downside is if you put sideways pressure on them they snap danny ---- Start of Message 128322 ---- From: "John J Black" Date: 2004-01-27 06:38:51 Subject: Champion Model 10 Leather Slitter Knowledgeable GG's, While coming back from a trip up to the Lansing area last weekend SWMBO an I stopped in a few antiques establishments. To my delight I found a nice working Champion Model 10 Leather Slitter. This is one heavy duty machine with the gears working freely. The price was right and it had to follow me home. Anyone have any information on these? Is this the same company as the Champion Forge and Blower Company? Says "Champion Model 10, St. Louis MO." on the casting with a "100" cast in the other side. http://jjblack.net/toolpics/ChampionMdl10LeatherSlitter001A.jpg http://jjblack.net/toolpics/ChampionMdl10LeatherSlitter003A.jpg Best Regards, John John J Black (A Machigaloot) Email: john@j... Like I always say ... If it wasn't for me there wouldn't be anyone like me around ---- Start of Message 128323 ---- From: "John J Black" Date: 2004-01-27 06:51:12 Subject: Hammered dulcimer Good Morning GG's, I had a chance to go to John Wilson's house last weekend for a little get together. As guest entertainment the John Kelly family trio played a variety of instruments for us. John Kelly is a master at making hammered dulcimers, he said he has made over a thousand of them so far. I thought I would share a couple of pictures of them for our luthiers out their. http://jjblack.net/HammeredDulicimer1.jpg http://jjblack.net/HammeredDulicimer2.jpg http://jjblack.net/HammeredDulicimer3.jpg Best Regards, John John J Black (A Machigaloot) Email: john@j... Like I always say ... If it wasn't for me there wouldn't be anyone like me around ---- Start of Message 128324 ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-01-27 07:08:19 Subject: Re: Champion Model 10 Leather Slitter John wrote and asked " > While coming back from a trip up to the Lansing area .... To my delight I found a nice > working Champion Model 10 Leather Slitter. This is one heavy duty machine > with the gears working freely........ > Anyone have any information on these? Is this the same company as the > Champion Forge and Blower Company? Says "Champion Model 10, St. Louis MO." > on the casting with a "100" cast in the other side. > > http://jjblack.net/toolpics/ChampionMdl10LeatherSlitter001A.jpg > http://jjblack.net/toolpics/ChampionMdl10LeatherSlitter003A.jpg > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- I have always heard these called "Splitting Machines" but imagine there are probaly several names for them,[think also some are called skiving machines].In any case a really nice looking quality machine and looks to be bigger then most others I have seen. I have several leather machines made by the Champion Co. of St. Louis and I am pretty sure they don't have any connection to the Champion Forge and Blower co. since they are located in Lancaster Penn. Think it was just a case of two companys chosing a "Champion" sounding name ......Todd ---- Start of Message 128325 ---- From: "Peter McBride" Date: 2004-01-27 23:46:56 Subject: steel sole on gunmetal planes, 2nd instalment. Gentle ones, We had a holiday weekend down under so I did a little more on the steel soles for the gunmetal planes. Page 2 is now up and shows the challenges of getting the shoulder plane throat right. http://www.petermcbride.com/plane_restore/ http://www.petermcbride.com/plane_restore/page2.htm I had a few questions of line. hope I was able to answer them ok. and thanks to those with encouragement and suggestions...most welcome. International equivalents for solder, flux and steel stocks are a trial. Regards, Peter In Melbourne, Aust. where more work was done on the woodwork tools than with them again, and again, and..... ---- Start of Message 128326 ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-01-27 05:02:19 Subject: RE: Experimenting with augurs --- Thomas Conroy wrote: > Galoots: > With a big bit, having a > coarse lead screw > means it takes a lot more force to turn the brace; > putting a 1 1/4" > hole through hard maple, or even cherry, with a > coarse bit is a > pain, Now, that I can understand. I did my experiment with a tiny #4 (1/4") bit so I didn't have that problem. > I had always assumed that the fine screw would pull > the bit through > faster, but today I put two 1" and two 1 1/4" holes > through 1 3/4" > teak, and counted the turns. They both took 25-30 > turns for the lead > screw to stick out of the other side although the > bigger bit looked > to have one turn in the lead screw for every turn in > the lead screw > of the smaller bit. Don't have an explanation for > this one, and it > doesn't accord with my memory of previous > experience. > So, are you saying that you used one course and one fine of each size and they took the same number of turns? When I tried it with my #4, the fine thread took 90 turns to go as deep as the other did in 25 or so turns. (can't remember the exact numbers this morning) So, to sum up, so far it seems that with large bits a fine thread might help make the boring easier as you're not trying to hog out a lot of wood with each turn, but still no reason to use fine threads on the smaller bits. AAAndrew Slipping and sliding away in Durham, North Carolina __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128327 ---- From: "John J Black" Date: 2004-01-27 08:18:28 Subject: RE: Left handed veneer saw? Good Morning GG's, I'm catching up on some posts this morning as I have the day off due to freezing rain and snow conditions outside. Sorry if I'm kind of late commenting .. I agree with Jim the veneer saws work well, but I have made a home made cutter that worked pretty well for cutting veneer at an angle. (I was making a veneer backgammon board and wanted the pieces to have a seamless looking fit). Anyway, I used 2 pieces of wood and a replacement blade for a utility knife with a couple of holes and screws to hold the thingy together. I placed the blade at and angle between the screws and slid the hole thing against a straight edge. I made a quickie drawing of the thing if your interested... http://jjblack.net/VeneerCutter.jpg Not sure if this helps ... My 2 Cents, John John J Black (A Machigaloot) Email: john@j... Like I always say ... If it wasn't for me there wouldn't be anyone like me around Jim Thompson wrote: The correct instrument is one of those little veneer saws that have teeth on 2 edges. Veneer is usually cut in a stack with the veneer saw using a batten for a straight edge. The purpose of this is matched edges. The saw is ambidextrous. The teeth are sharpened just like you would sharpen a knife. As many soft strokes as is necessary are used to cut through the stack while the saw is held with the blade flat against a thick batten so the angle of cut remains constant. You can cut single pieces the same way. ---- Start of Message 128328 ---- From: "Tony Zaffuto" Date: 2004-01-27 08:24:57 Subject: Thanks! Just a short note of thanks to the warm reception given me after my bio/introduction. DuBois is located on Interstate 80, and should any of you be traveling through the area and experience car trouble, directions, etc., I can be reached at (814) 375-9399 (office) or 375-0359 (home). My email is amzmti@a... Nearby to DuBois, located in Hazen, PA (again, on I-80, old exit 14, new exit 81) is a very, very large flea market. This year's schedule is the first weekend of each month, starting in April, ending in October or November (depending upon weather). ---- Start of Message 128329 ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-01-27 05:27:06 Subject: WTB #6 Irwin or Jennings bit I realized that I need a good #6 bit. I went to cut out a 3/8" mortise and found that I only had one #6 bit that had come with a group of bits, and the side spurs were worn down to the point where they no longer cut. I could try and re-hab it, but I figured it's easier to just buy one that's already in good shape. I'd like one that's not red-rusty, sharp is preferred but can sharpen it myself. I'd like course thread and all of the lead screw needs to be intact. Contact me if you've got one just hanging around spare. Thanks! AAAndrew Who's almost finished with the base of his table and getting ready to start edge jointing the boards for the top and shelf in Durham, North Carolina. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128330 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-01-27 08:58:46 Subject: Re: Israel White side bead questions Hi Bret & All, Hildick irons are British. There were several Hildicks who made irons from ca. 1823 until the mid 1900s, so hard to date yours. Best Wishes, Solomons Bob ---- Start of Message 128331 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Bob Nelson) Date: 2004-01-27 09:08:26 Subject: Re: Champion Model 10 Leather Slitter Hi John & Todd & All, I don't find a Champion Co. of St. Louis in the DAT, but (like Todd) I'm quite sure there's no connection to the PA one. The DAT does have six or so makers with Champion in there name plus another dozen or more who used Champion as a brand name or such. I didn't chase down all the latter re if any of them worked in St. Louis. Best Wishes, Solomons Bob ---- Start of Message 128332 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-27 09:27:23 Subject: Cleaning braces (was Frey [Fray] brace de-greasing) Hello GG's I've had the good fortune to bump into George now and again on eb*y while hunting old braces, and have had the benefit of this advice, as well as Sandy's for some time. I'd like to share a few more techniques with the group. >After a couple hundred greasy, rusty, paint-covered braces, >here's my cleaning method: > >1. Pick off the paint spots with an extremely dull three- >cornered file that was once a scraper; or with an equally >dull ink eraser with a broken rosewood handle; or with a >generic and extraordinarily dull wood chisel that could probably pass an airport inspection. >> >Best regards, >George Langford in chilly SE PA A (dull) old short outcanal 3/8 or 1/2" gouge will also work to remove rust on the frame. There may still be a few out there if Steve and Tom haven't grabbed them all up. If the frame is pitted, and you want it really clean, you can go for an acid bath. This can work better than mineral spirits. To protect wooden parts, get a block of parafin (beeswax), melt it in an old pot or coffee tin, and dunk the top handle (cup) a couple of times (cooling in between), and then paint it on the wrist handle with a brush. With the wooden parts sealed, let the brace soak in a glass baking dish with full strenghth cider vinegar for a few days. When you think the rust has loosened, rinse the brace (scrubbing well) with hot water to get the crud off. When it is dry, peel off the parafin from the wood. Best Regards Jonathan ---- Start of Message 128333 ---- From: "Gary Katsanis" Date: 2004-01-27 09:40:01 Subject: Shellac and Poly (was Neander Norm) I thought that shellac and polyurinethane didn't like to stick together - something about stearates? Instructions on the can don't indicate compatibility. Does anyone know details? Gary K Close to Buffalo NY --snip,snip-- > is described where he built the screen. He used > shellac in the finishing process... After the stain > and before the topcoat of poly ;-) ---- Start of Message 128334 ---- From: Roger Rosner Date: 2004-01-27 09:42:44 Subject: olive for wear plate for spokeshave? I need to remouth an old spokeshave and happen to have some olive wood sitting around (courtesy of a fellow galoot some years back). Anyone know if it would be hard enough to use as a wear plate? Minor "I made something" gloat: finished my first Gunterman-style spokeshave last night. Works like a charm. Roger ---- Start of Message 128335 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-27 06:58:09 Subject: Re: olive for wear plate for spokeshave? I have an olive tree in my front yard that I have to prune from time to time. I save the branches, if they are of any size, to use for various things. The wood is really hard but not quite as dense as boxwood. I wouldn't hesitate to use it for a wear surface. On Tuesday, January 27, 2004, at 06:42 AM, Roger Rosner wrote: > I need to remouth an old spokeshave and happen to have some olive wood > sitting around (courtesy of a fellow galoot some years back). Anyone > know if it would be hard enough to use as a wear plate? > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 128336 ---- From: "Gary Katsanis" Date: 2004-01-27 09:50:28 Subject: Re: Bio/Introduction Glad to have you here Doug! A lot of us have found that even western saws can do that fingernail trick. The white scar on my left forefinger is the first thing I show my GITs when I talk about hand saws, DAMHIKT. That's the lesson I go into right after the *dull* means *dangerous* lecture. Gary K Close to Buffalo NY ----- Original Message ----- > Gentlemen: > > I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Doug Van Horn --snip, snip-- > > Doug Van Horn > (who knows that a Japanese saw coming out of its kerf will cut a thumbnail) ---- Start of Message 128337 ---- From: "Mike Duchaj" Date: 2004-01-27 10:14:03 Subject: Re: Shellac and Poly (was Neander Norm) Gary, I posed this question to my Uncle Shorty who refinishes furniture. He said that he has never had a problem with putting poly over Shellac. I asked if you need to use dewaxed. He said that he had not had a problem with Zinser premix. For what it's worth... Mike Duchaj Elgin, IL Awaiting the sh....(shellac?) storm that is likely to follow this comment. ---- Start of Message 128338 ---- From: Roger Date: 2004-01-27 09:15:41 Subject: Re: St. Roy and the stone age OK I have been biting my tongue on the flintknapping issue. I have several 80 gallon rubbermaid tubs full of rock out back from obsidian to high grade flint. I have been flintknapping seriously since 1993. For years before that I tried, but there is one book I can HIGHLY reccomend to anyone who might want to try thier hand at the most neander of galoot crafts. The book is "Making and understanding stone tools" by John Whittaker. An excellent read. It explains all the physics behind what is happening in a way most of us can understand. I have esperimented with doing some woodworking with stone tools and my obserations are thus: the bulk of the wood was either split or burned/charred off first most stone tools are ment to be used as scrapers on wood. About the only time knifelike edges and motions work is when you are working FLESH (i.e. butchering an animal...or yourself) I made a hickory bow using just wood and stone tools (ok, I cut it down with an iron axe). It works, but it is not an feat I am eager to repeat anytime soon. It is a good feeling to know oyu cna go anywhere in the world and find material to make simple tools though. Materials I have knapped: Flint Chert Obsidian Slag Glass Television tubes (TIVO be damned!) bottle bottoms ashtrays aquarium glass glass and ceramic insulators china plates toilet bowls (know in knapping circles as Johnnystone or Thunderstone) Hard candy You can also knap ice, but they don't last long Roger in Alabama ---- Start of Message 128339 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-27 08:23:03 Subject: Re: More Brace Degreasing Hi all, Could someone direct me to George's 2101 disassembly instructions? Thanks. Blake ---- Start of Message 128340 ---- From: kjworz@c... Date: 2004-01-27 15:29:49 Subject: Re: Bio/Introduction Well, sharp means dangerous, too, if combine "sharp" with "moment of stupidity" My saw injury was with a bee-yoo-tee-ful Tom Law sharpened Disston #7 x-cut. What? Some people missed the gore? Well the pic is still up ifn anyone wants to see what a sharp saw does when you make an error in handtool judgement: http://www.bustedtruss.com/franken-thumb.jpg -- -Chris Schwartz, Ex-Brewer Stealth #97 Silver Spring, MD > Glad to have you here Doug! A lot of us have found that even western > saws can do that fingernail trick. The white scar on my left > forefinger is the first thing I show my GITs when I talk about hand > saws, DAMHIKT. That's the lesson I go into right after the *dull* > means *dangerous* lecture. > > ---- Start of Message 128341 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-27 08:30:12 Subject: Re: St. Roy and the stone age Roger, that's interesting. In your experience, how does the edge on your knapped work compare to a really sharp steel iron? Blake ---- Start of Message 128342 ---- From: Kirk Eppler Date: 2004-01-27 07:34:42 Subject: Re: Veritas/Lee Valley scraper plane bugbear wrote: > I don't think a "booth tuned" tool is going to outperform a galoot > tuned tool. After watching Deneb (sp?) in the LN booth for two years, and knowing my own techniques, I beg to differ. Maybe some of you super-galoots out there can tune your planes to match Deneb's, but I sure can't. I'm sure most newer galoots feel the same way. The newbie buddy I was with was just in outright awe of Deneb, I was simply impressed. The few hours a month I get to spend on WW are not enough to keep all the tools up to his level, much less do any WW if I got them there. So I suffer along, keeping 1 or 2 planes tuned to the highest level I can, and a few others at the point of diminishing returns, and let the good ones do the clean up after them. The rest get tuned up when I need them. But, time spent here, and at BAGathons, has greatly improved my skill level, and made me more efficient, both in WW and in plane tuning. Maybe when my kids quit playing soccer I'll be good enough at both to actually make something in under a year. -- Kirk Eppler in Rainy Half Moon Bay, CA Global Mfg Science and Technology Eppler.Kirk@g... ---- Start of Message 128343 ---- From: bugbear Date: 2004-01-27 15:50:22 Subject: Re: olive for wear plate for spokeshave? Roger Rosner wrote: > I need to remouth an old spokeshave and happen to have some olive wood > sitting around (courtesy of a fellow galoot some years back). Anyone > know if it would be hard enough to use as a wear plate? Given the number of solid boxwood spokeshaves I've seen with extreme wear, I'd recommend something tougher than wood. Brass seem the obvious choice. BugBear (with a patched and brass wear plated beech spokeshave) ---- Start of Message 128344 ---- From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: 2004-01-27 10:51:42 Subject: Nerd Tour 2004: Galoot in Slough (Ditton Park), UK I'll be in Slough -- famed as the location of brit-com "The Office" -- for the week of April 19. I'm likely to be tied up with legitimate work from Monday through Friday, but would appreciate recommendations for galootish things to see nearby, or galootish events that I might be able to sneak out to, or special events that might be worth extending my stay for. [The same is true for eastern LI, New York for April 5-9, and Australia at the start of May, but I suspect I won't have *any* spare time for the LI trip, and I've already contacted Peter McBride about the latter.] Thanks in advance, Ken Meltsner In Milwaukee WI, thank goodness, until Sunday.... ---- Start of Message 128345 ---- From: Andrew Midkiff Date: 2004-01-27 07:58:55 Subject: Re: St. Roy and the stone age I'm impressed! Any pictures of what you've made? Do you work in one style (clovis, etc), neolithic, paleolithic? I ask because while not as familiar with the types found in Europe and the Americas, I am more familiar with both Paleolithic and Neolithic stone tools from China. (my master's degree was a mixture of Chinese archaeology and art history). There's an interesting find they made lately in Southern China of what appears to be a stone tool production site with evidence of division of labor. http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200303/27/eng20030327_114107.shtml If you ever want to really challenge yourself, try reproducing one of the late Danish pieces. They were reproducing metal forms from neighboring areas where the metals were more abundant. http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/2002septemberdanishdaggpage3.htm I see them like transitional planes. :-) Someone mentioned, or perhaps I read somewhere recently about carving up an elephant with stone tools. Here's an excerpt of the account. http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/dept/d10/asb/lost_tribes/Carve.html Let's all raise a cup to Homo Habilis, the "Handy Man" from whom all Galoots descend. AAAndrew It can't get much more old-tool than this. --- Roger wrote: > OK I have been biting my tongue on the flintknapping > issue. I have > several 80 gallon rubbermaid tubs full of rock out > back from obsidian to > high grade flint. I have been flintknapping > seriously since 1993. For > years before that I tried, but there is one book I > can HIGHLY reccomend > to anyone who might want to try thier hand at the > most neander of galoot > crafts. The book is "Making and understanding stone > tools" by John > Whittaker. An excellent read. It explains all the > physics behind what > is happening in a way most of us can understand. I > have esperimented > with doing some woodworking with stone tools and my > obserations are thus: > the bulk of the wood was either split or > burned/charred off first > most stone tools are ment to be used as scrapers on > wood. About the > only time knifelike edges and motions work is when > you are working FLESH > (i.e. butchering an animal...or yourself) > > I made a hickory bow using just wood and stone tools > (ok, I cut it down > with an iron axe). It works, but it is not an feat > I am eager to repeat > anytime soon. > It is a good feeling to know oyu cna go anywhere in > the world and find > material to make simple tools though. > > Materials I have knapped: > Flint > Chert > Obsidian > Slag Glass > Television tubes (TIVO be damned!) > bottle bottoms > ashtrays > aquarium glass > glass and ceramic insulators > china plates > toilet bowls (know in knapping circles as > Johnnystone or Thunderstone) > Hard candy > You can also knap ice, but they don't last long > > Roger in Alabama > > > > Archive: > http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web > interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128346 ---- From: Steve_Bussell@n... Date: 2004-01-27 10:58:41 Subject: WTB - chair making tools Galooti, Looks like I will be attending the esteemed Mr. Dunbar's April sack back class so I'm looking to aquire some of the necessary special tools. I anyone has any to part with, please let me know. I'm looking for.... a tapered reamer a set of spoon bits (3/8, 7/16, 9/16, 5/8) a scorp a Wooden compass plane a gutter adz and a travisher. TIA, Steve ---- Start of Message 128347 ---- From: "Alan Perreault" Date: 2004-01-27 11:38:15 Subject: Re: More Brace Degreasing > Hi all, > > Could someone direct me to George's 2101 disassembly instructions? > Thanks. > > Blake > Blake, I believe you are looking for this link: http://www.amenex.com/georgesbasement/fs2101a.htm Have fun. Al Perreault Westminster, Massachusetts ---- Start of Message 128348 ---- From: tomthornton Date: 2004-01-27 12:31:32 Subject: Carshops I can't let this one go by without commenting... Every town with a railroad interchange had a car shop where defective cars were shunted to be repaired. When I was still a teenager before ww2 I serviced comptometers in the shops around Buffalo. Today OSHA would have a heart attack. First they were big unheated barns They usually has a small office, hidden within its dark cavern ( where the comptometer was) Usually there were dirty skylights that made a grey gloom The work was done with hand held naked bulbs The floor was soot sand or black earth. There was at least 6 or more sets of tracks where the cars were standing. A small belching swtich engine would shuttle the cars in and out with its black smoke billowing to the ceiling and its steam squirting everything it passed Usually at least one door was wide open so the wind whistled thru The workmen were covered with coveralls from toe to top of head looking like large animals moving about Usually the noise was such, pounding, riveting, sawing that talk was possible only by mouth to ear. As best I recall I saw no power tools within the car shop. The big power machines were nearby in the 'machine shop' which had the same atmosphere but lacked the switch engine moving back and forth. They both had emmense overhead cranes that rolled back and forth carrying everything up to whole cars. And the mechanics and their helpers who worked there were as fine a goups of fellows I ever knew, and most very well thought of within the community. Visiting one was a real thrill that one never forgets. -- Tom Thornton Cincinnati #3, Morristown N.J. USA Collector of old tools, specializing in Hand Cranked Grindstones ---- Start of Message 128349 ---- From: "Robert Fortier" Date: 2004-01-27 12:44:14 Subject: Plow plane question Hi to everyone After a big moment of watching and listening everyone, and some struggle with the list (the link to post message with my old address did not seem to work anymore, so I created a new) I go in with the following question: I'm making a plow plane, but I have no living example in front of me. I'd like to know what is the joint between the fence and the post that hold the screws. I've seen recently in a australian mag that this was some sort of pivoting joint, but I was thinking more mortise/tenon kind of thing...Anyone can help ??? Thanks Bob in cold Sherbrooke, province of Québec ---- Start of Message 128350 ---- From: Roger Rosner Date: 2004-01-27 12:42:16 Subject: Re: olive for wear plate for spokeshave? BugBear wrote: > Given the number of solid boxwood spokeshaves I've seen with > extreme wear, I'd recommend something tougher than wood. Brass seem > the obvious choice. I've been curious about using brass--our local art store has a display of brass sheets--but I have no idea how to cut it... Any suggestions? Is there a basic text on metalworking that explains this sort of thing? Someone should write "Basic Metalworking for Woodworkers". Roger ---- Start of Message 128351 ---- From: JPagona@a... Date: 2004-01-27 12:58:44 Subject: Re: Plow plane question In a message dated 1/27/2004 12:44:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, Robert.Fortier@S... writes: > I'd like to know what is the joint between the fence and the post that > hold the screws. Traditionally, I think it may be done with a peened brass rod, although I could be mistaken. When I made my plow plane, I used half lap dovetail joints to connect the posts to the fence. Then I reinforced it with a dowel through the dovetail into the fence. Not traditional, but it worked well. David Sobel Tampa, FL ---- Start of Message 128352 ---- From: Bill Webber Date: 2004-01-27 13:03:22 Subject: Re: olive (or brass) for wear plate? Hi Roger, I'm in the process of trying to make a couple spoke shaves with brass wear strips. I picked a 4 x 6 inch piece of brass stock that is .062 thick. I mark out over size pieces and cut them out with a hack saw. I'm using sand paper and files to square them and fit them into the opening. I'm using epoxy to hold them in place. I'll file and smooth the outer edge after they are glued in place. I'm having some problem with old epoxy setting up properly so I'll likely be adding some screws through some of the plates, also. Give it a go! Roger Rosner wrote: > BugBear wrote: > > > Given the number of solid boxwood spokeshaves I've seen with > > extreme wear, I'd recommend something tougher than wood. Brass seem > > the obvious choice. > > I've been curious about using brass--our local art store has a display > of brass sheets--but I have no idea how to cut it... Any suggestions? > > Is there a basic text on metalworking that explains this sort of thing? > Someone should write "Basic Metalworking for Woodworkers". > > Roger > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools -- Bill W. Woodworkers visit me at: http://Highland_House.tripod.com ---- Start of Message 128353 ---- From: "todd Hughes" Date: 2004-01-27 13:11:30 Subject: Re: olive for wear plate for spokeshave? > BugBear wrote: > > > Given the number of solid boxwood spokeshaves I've seen with > > extreme wear, I'd recommend something tougher than wood. Brass seem > > the obvious choice. > Roger wrote... > I've been curious about using brass--our local art store has a display > of brass sheets--but I have no idea how to cut it... Any suggestions? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- The brass could be cut with a pair of snips or probably just as easy with a common hacksaw with fine teeth.Don't know what to tell you other then just cut it out and drill two holes in the plate for the two screws,[steel straight slot ones please !] and attach to the shave. To do a neat job inlet the shave and then file the edges down on the wear plate after it is fitted. Of course cut the wear plate first and fit it to the shave after cut. I have also made wear plates out of bone and ivory as well and they seem to work fine, have a few Antique Shaves with them as well. Often you will see at an auction an old Piano sell for about nothing which you can get for the ivory keys which work fine for this job and other ivory inlays.Once bought a big old grand piano at an auction for a little bit of nothing which I proceeded to chop up for the ivory and it's wire with the axe I carry behind my truck seat while the old woman that brought it to the sale watched horror struck ! Guess she wouldn't have gone to all that trouble hauling the piano there if she knew it would only bring $5 and then get butchered in front of her..... .Piano made a noise like a tortured elephant my girlfriend said as I went at it........Todd ---- Start of Message 128354 ---- From: "John Truxell-Svenson" Date: 2004-01-27 13:17:35 Subject: Re: St. Roy and the stone age Andrew Midkiff wrote on 01/27/2004 10:58:55 AM: > If you ever want to really challenge yourself, try > reproducing one of the late Danish pieces. They were > reproducing metal forms from neighboring areas where > the metals were more abundant. > http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/2002septemberdanishdaggpage3.htm > Let's all raise a cup to Homo Habilis, the "Handy Man" > from whom all Galoots descend. > > AAAndrew > It can't get much more old-tool than this. > Yes; the fact that they even have a type study certainly nails it. Almost fell off my chair when I saw that part. /jvs ___________________________________________________________ John Truxell-Svenson, Northern Virginia ---- Start of Message 128355 ---- From: "Blake Ashley" Date: 2004-01-27 11:19:28 Subject: Re: olive for wear plate for spokeshave? Oh man! That is harsh! And hilarious. She must have thought you were a madman. ---- Start of Message 128356 ---- From: "Marcus Sly" Date: 2004-01-27 18:29:50 Subject: Re: making pencil gauges Thanks to everyone for all your replies. Certainly given me a lot to think about. Now to work.... - Marcus. ---- Start of Message 128357 ---- From: "Steve Brackett" Date: 2004-01-27 18:45:08 Subject: Gloat: My first REAL Barber Chuck Well Sandy has two (according to his webiste.. a must read if any of you have not been there www.sydnassloot.com) and now I gots my first. A Millers Falls No. 54 (short sweep nonratcheting jobbie). Found at the local FM (aren't all the best gloats?). I've been on about a two months tool drought so I have to admit that I was not really looking that hard (I was beginnig to do the "all the good tools are gone" routine, and yes.. I am WAY too young for that yet!) Coming around a corner and what did I see, but a lignum head sticking out from under a pile of rust. As I got closer I could see it was an older M-F brace and was a short sweep! I pulled it out of the pile and the dealer said "two bucks and its yours". Well its mine LOL. Home in the safety of my shop it got a lil rust removed (gently) , a lil wax on the nearly perfect lignum head and rosewood handle.. and then off comes the chuck. Since I had yet to see a real pre-Amidon Improved barber Chuck in the wild I was a bit pe rplexed.. for about 5 seconds. Then I yelled to SWMBO.. I GOT ONE.. wait till the guys see this ! Now for dating this lil guy. There is no Millers Falls mark, except for a stamp (actually was double stamped ) No 54. The stamp is very scripty. Randy's site lists the M-F 54 as a 6" sweep, nonratcheting brace with a lignum head and rosewood handle (yup.. thats my brace) made at least as early as 1885 until 1896. Sandy is of the opinion that the real Barber chuck was produced by M_F primarily from 1865 (date of M-F's purchase of Barber's patent) until about 1868 (date of Amidon's "Improved" Barber chuck patent). Owning a few Millers Falls Mfg. Co braces (pre-1872) myself the one observation I will make is that this 54 appears to be from the same vintage. If anyone is interested I will post a pic.. just let me know. So.. once agin inspired, I am Steve in Keene (its good to be brace collector 30 miles north of Millers Falls,Ma) ---- Start of Message 128358 ---- From: John Lederer Date: 2004-01-27 13:04:36 Subject: Re: olive (or brass) for wear plate? I dunno that it is the best way, but I cut brass sheet a tad outside the scratched line(s) with a fine tooth hacksaw, then clean up down to the line with a file. John Lederer Oregon, Wisconsin > > ---- Start of Message 128359 ---- From: scott grandstaff Date: 2004-01-27 11:13:57 Subject: Re: olive for wear plate for spokeshave? I've been curious about using brass--our local art store has a display of brass sheets--but I have no idea how to cut it... Any suggestions? Go to the hobby shop. There is always a display of brass sheets and strips. Just pick your strip and then all you need to do it lop it off to length with a hack or jewelers saw. I could tell you how to butcher up big sheets quick, but considering where I'm writing to, then I'd have to....................... yours, Scott -- Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 Tools: http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html PageWorks: http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/ ---- Start of Message 128360 ---- From: "Robert Fortier" Date: 2004-01-27 14:26:58 Subject: RE: Gloat: My first REAL Barber Chuck Well I dont know for you guys, but I would like to see a pic..... -----Message d'origine----- De : Steve Brackett [mailto:brackettgeo@y...] Envoy=C3=A9 : 27 janvier, 2004 13:45 =C3=80 : oldtools Objet : [oldtools] Gloat: My first REAL Barber Chuck Well Sandy has two (according to his webiste.. a must read if any of you = have not been there www.sydnassloot.com) and now I gots my first. A = Millers Falls No. 54 (short sweep nonratcheting jobbie). Found at the = local FM (aren't all the best gloats?). I've been on about a two months = tool drought so I have to admit that I was not really looking that hard = (I was beginnig to do the "all the good tools are gone" routine, and = yes.. I am WAY too young for that yet!) Coming around a corner and what = did I see, but a lignum head sticking out from under a pile of rust. As = I got closer I could see it was an older M-F brace and was a short = sweep! I pulled it out of the pile and the dealer said "two bucks and = its yours". Well its mine LOL. Home in the safety of my shop it got a = lil rust removed (gently) , a lil wax on the nearly perfect lignum head = and rosewood handle.. and then off comes the chuck. Since I had yet to = see a real pre-Amidon Improved barber Chuck in the wild I was a bit = perplexed.. for about 5 seconds. Then I yelled to SWMBO.. I GOT ONE.. = wait till the guys see this ! Now for dating this lil guy. There is no = Millers Falls mark, except for a stamp (actually was double stamped ) No = 54. The stamp is very scripty. Randy's site lists the M-F 54 as a 6" = sweep, nonratcheting brace with a lignum head and rosewood handle (yup.. = thats my brace) made at least as early as 1885 until 1896. Sandy is of = the opinion that the real Barber chuck was produced by M_F primarily = from 1865 (date of M-F's purchase of Barber's patent) until about 1868 = (date of Amidon's "Improved" Barber chuck patent). Owning a few Millers = Falls Mfg. Co braces (pre-1872) myself the one observation I will make = is that this 54 appears to be from the same vintage. If anyone is = interested I will post a pic.. just let me know. So.. once agin inspired, I am=20 Steve in Keene (its good to be brace collector 30 miles north of Millers = Falls,Ma) ---- Start of Message 128361 ---- From: Timothy Collins Date: 2004-01-27 14:36:25 Subject: hand boring large hole Hey all from icy NC. Any suggestions for a way to hand bore a 2 3/4 inch hole? I know I could buy a hole saw or a fostner bit and borrow the neighbors drill press, any chance I could make this size hole by hand? tim ---- Start of Message 128362 ---- From: "Daniel E.L. Yurwit" Date: 2004-01-27 14:44:43 Subject: Spinning saw nuts OK. Time to swallow my pride. I can cut a make a nice straight, square cut with the kind assistance of Mr. Disston or Mr. Atkins, but.........how do tighten up those saw nuts (modern variety) as they insist on spinning, with their smooth, bald heads give me nothing to grab onto? Dan, in NJ, waiting for what will probably be 5-10" of partly cloudy ---- Start of Message 128363 ---- From: "Murray Roblin" Date: 2004-01-27 11:44:59 Subject: RE: olive for wear plate for spokeshave? >todd spracht: >=20 > The brass could be cut with a pair of snips or probably=20 > just as easy with a common hacksaw with fine teeth. Don't know=20 > what to tell you other then just cut it out and drill two=20 > holes in the plate for the two screws,[steel straight slot=20 > ones please !] ... Todd -=20 Why "steel" and why "straight slot"? Straight slots are a PIA. Thanks, Murray ---- Start of Message 128364 ---- From: "Ed O'Riordan" Date: 2004-01-27 14:49:50 Subject: RE: hand boring large hole An expansive auger bit should do the trick (adjustable auger bit). They don't work as well as single size auger bits, but if you go slow they are ok. A surprising number of these are found in the original packaging, which usually is inversely related to a tools usefulness. Looking at a certain online auction site and from past experiences you should have to pay more than a few dollars for one not including shipping. Ed O' -----Original Message----- From: Timothy Collins [mailto:colli037@m...] Hey all from icy NC. Any suggestions for a way to hand bore a 2 3/4 inch hole? tim ---- Start of Message 128365 ---- From: "Daniel E.L. Yurwit" Date: 2004-01-27 14:52:48 Subject: Re: hand boring large hole > Any suggestions for a way to hand bore a 2 3/4 inch hole? ......any > chance I could make this size hole by hand? >> tim Tim, Do you mean other than with a good old fashioned timber framing barn auger? They came considerably larger than that. Might take a little hunting (aren't we all looking for a good excuse?), but they're usually cheap when you find them....as long as you're not hunting at a Christie's "primitives" auction. Dan, in NJ ---- Start of Message 128366 ---- From: NickNaylo@a... Date: 2004-01-27 15:18:30 Subject: Re: hand boring large hole Tim writes: > > Any suggestions for a way to hand bore a 2 3/4 inch hole? I know I > could > buy a hole saw or a fostner bit and borrow the neighbors drill > press, any chance I could make this size hole by hand? Tim, you might have to buy a tool. Biggest bit I have is a sawtooth 2 1/8 that came with my post drill. A T handled auger will come that big, I've got a 2 1/2 one hanging on the shop wall, They tend to go cheap on the *Bay, and they are easy to sharpen to boot. I recently drilled 1 1/4 with an expansive bit but I doubt it would go up to 2 3/4. Short of drill a hole and coping sawing a hole that big, you might have to buy something, ain't that terrible!!! ;-) Michael, in rainy san francisco ---- Start of Message 128367 ---- From: Christopher Swingley Date: 2004-01-27 11:21:52 Subject: Re: hand boring large hole GG's Tim asked about hand boring a large 2 3/4" hole. Ed replied: > An expansive auger bit should do the trick (adjustable auger bit). > They don't work as well as single size auger bits, but if you go slow > they are ok. I'll add that a chain drill can often make a big difference when boring large holes, especially if the wood isn't very solid and the lead screw on the bit isn't pulling the cutters into the wood. As long as you can wrap the chain around the object you're drilling into, it'll pull the bit into the wood. With an expansive auger bit, you'll want to be especially careful (and having a chain drill with a slow feed rate, if such a beast exists, would help) because the bit only has a cutter on one side, so one way for the bit to "escape" the pressure the chain drill is applying is to swerve and not cut straight. I wonder what a hole saw would be like with a 14" brace / breast drill / and/or a chain drill? Chris -- Christopher S. Swingley University of Alaska Fairbanks cswingle@i... http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/ OldTools Searchable Archive: http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ http://archive.oldtools.org/ ---- Start of Message 128368 ---- From: Michael Campbell Date: 2004-01-27 12:42:47 Subject: Re: hand boring large hole Timothy Collins wrote: > Hey all from icy NC. > > Any suggestions for a way to hand bore a 2 3/4 inch hole? I know I could > buy a hole saw or a fostner bit and borrow the neighbors drill press, any > chance I could make this size hole by hand? 2 3/4"? Yegads! In galootish fashion however, I'd start with a musket... (joking, of course) Michael, slightly loopy from all the allergy/cold medicine in almost freezing, and definitely wet, Atlanta. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128369 ---- From: "Richard J. Hucker" Date: 2004-01-27 14:42:55 Subject: Re: hand boring large hole Ed: I can't bring up your web site anymore. Are there any changes we need to know about? Regards, Col. Dick Hucker (Huck) Dyer, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed O'Riordan" To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 11:49 AM Subject: RE: [oldtools] hand boring large hole > An expansive auger bit should do the trick (adjustable auger bit). They > don't work as well as single size auger bits, but if you go slow they > are ok. A surprising number of these are found in the original > packaging, which usually is inversely related to a tools usefulness. > > Looking at a certain online auction site and from past experiences you > should have to pay more than a few dollars for one not including > shipping. > > Ed O' > -----Original Message----- > From: Timothy Collins [mailto:colli037@m...] > Hey all from icy NC. > > Any suggestions for a way to hand bore a 2 3/4 inch hole? > tim > > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 128370 ---- From: Roger Date: 2004-01-27 14:48:28 Subject: Re: St. Roy and the stone age Blake Ashley wrote: >Roger, that's interesting. > >In your experience, how does the edge on your knapped work compare to a >really sharp steel iron? > >Blake > > Freshly flaked edges are SHARP! IT is possible to shave off your fingerprints with a fresh blade (not an experiment that I am eager to repeat, but worth a try once). No comparison in absolute sharpness to iron. This is why they are used for things like microtomes. However as others have stated thye are not durable since they are so brittle. Theoretically you could dull a freshly flaked blade by waving it in the air (and the air resistance causing the edge to break off since it is so thin). Fortunately new flakes are easy to make. What most people asscociate with sharpening stone tools is actually resharpening. Flakes are as sharp as they can get as soon as you make them. Resharpening is done using pressure flaking. This leaves a jaggedy sinuous edge that is conducive to using with a sawing motion. Usually things (like a peice of leather) were held between the teeth and one hand and the other hand used to cut the material. Of course fresh flakes could (and still are, i.e. eye surgery) used just like a scalpel blade. For scraping action a uniface blade was made (resharpened on one face...single bevel) to a fairly blunt angle. Great for working wood or fleshing leather. There has been much research on microwear patterns and their use in determining what cutting actions and materials a blade was used for. Without looking for such microwear it might be impossible to tell a waste flake from one that was used to slice up dinner. In the final analysis flaked edges are sharper, but do not hold up near as well as an iron edge for some tasks. Roger in AL ---- Start of Message 128371 ---- From: Matthew and Cathy Groves Date: 2004-01-27 15:06:46 Subject: Dilema, damaged tool purchased Hello Mighty and Knowledgeable and Wise, I purchased this bottom to a #90 or #93 (bullnose rabbet plane or metal shoulder plane) on a certain auction house. The part arrived, but it's damaged in a way that I hadn't realized. The tip of the bed has been ground back, and not so smoothly or evenly either. Is this repairable? Should I send it back? Picture here (You can tell now that you're looking for it): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2372344774 Matthew Groves Kearney, Nebraska ---- Start of Message 128372 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 2004-01-27 16:06:03 Subject: New sharpening bench Hi All, Apart from a zillion drawers, to be constructed later, my new and improved sharpening bench is now fully functional. By condemning the main door in my garage/shop I gained a whole new wall, which permitted me to put my sharpening stuff against it. It used to be a 4'x4' bench right in the middle of what is now empty (assembly) space and took up half the shop. I've also added some pictures of my pitsaw and my treadle grinder (shown without a wheel for the moment since I'll be turning it into a treadle strop for my carving tools. The pictures aren't the greatest since they were taken with a video camera... See : http://pages.infinit.net/perrons/Paul/Woodwork/Tools/tools.html Cheers, Paul Paul Pedersen Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 128373 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-27 13:22:20 Subject: Re: Spinning saw nuts Clamp a piece of wood on both sides of the saw nut, but the piece in the slotted side has a hole it it for the screwdriver. Clamp pressure ought to hole the screw from turning. Failing that use some thick CA glue under the head of the smooth bolt to keep it from turning. On Tuesday, January 27, 2004, at 11:44 AM, Daniel E.L. Yurwit wrote: > OK. Time to swallow my pride. I can cut a make a nice straight, > square cut > with the kind assistance of Mr. Disston or Mr. Atkins, but.........how > do > tighten up those saw nuts (modern variety) as they insist on spinning, > with > their smooth, bald heads give me nothing to grab onto? Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 128374 ---- From: Thomas Conroy Date: 2004-01-27 13:39:27 Subject: RE: Experimenting with augurs Made a stupid typo in my last posting: "although the bigger bit looked to have one turn in the lead screw for every turn in the lead screw of the smaller bit...." I meant, of course, the bigger bit had one turn for every two on the smaller bit. Sorry about that Andrew asked: No--- one 1" bit with a fine/medium lead, and one 1 1/4" bit with a coarse lead. I wasn't trying to do a test-- I was just making a binder's finishing press (two-screw vise that sits loose on the benchtop, this one with cheeks of teak about 1 3/4" x 4" x 22", 16" between screws--- hey, who do I address this explanation to? Anyone admit to not being a bookbinder?) and using the tools I normally use. Maybe the bigger bit crushes the wood behind the lead screw (i.e. maybe it is trying to pull out, and succeeds in doing so to a small extent). Or maybe I just didn't count right. Still got no explanation. Just as I've got no explanation for the freshman lab where we did a hydrogen-and-oxygen recombination to make water and got H-four-O within 1% error. Never seen a teacher as shaken as that. Sounds good to me, especially inside a mortise---- but hey, what do I know? I can't even count right. Tom Conroy Berkeley __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128375 ---- From: Jim Thompson Date: 2004-01-27 13:24:54 Subject: Re: olive for wear plate for spokeshave? Use a fine tooth hacksaw or a jewler's saw. DO NOT use hand shears because the result will be a bent piece of metal which won't lay down in the mortice. DAMHIKT On Tuesday, January 27, 2004, at 09:42 AM, Roger Rosner wrote: >> > > I've been curious about using brass--our local art store has a display > of brass sheets--but I have no idea how to cut it... Any suggestions? > Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ---- Start of Message 128376 ---- From: "don goldenhersh" Date: 2004-01-27 23:15:48 Subject: buck rogers plane ...found Galoot Brothers,I have not posted for a while because of having to feed the swmbo and kids but....i did find a great Buck Rogers # 714 plane the other day for a whopping 22.50 ...so the story goes....thanks Don goldenhersh in Cold columbia , missouri ---- Start of Message 128377 ---- From: Jonathan Peck Date: 2004-01-27 19:08:46 Subject: re: Plane sizes Hi Darren and all, I finally got a chance to re-measure these two planes as below, and I got: Bailey #3 type 9 = 8"long Bedrock #604 type 3 = 8+3/16"long >Put another way, if you measured the length of the perfect >rectangle of the sole (not counting the nose or >heel bumps) you'd get the 8" or 9" lengths. ---- Start of Message 128378 ---- From: Ken Pendergrass Date: 2004-01-27 20:09:13 Subject: Re: Galoot reference by St. Roy Trevor, I was shocked at how little sound Roy's krumhorn made compared to some I've heard on recordings. His was also not nearly so offensive a sound as a professional krum. I wonder do you need to wet the reed on a contained reed instrument and perhaps he didn't thin it enough? Ken Mike Duchaj wrote: >GGs > >I was watching St. Roy today. He made a Krumhorn based on a design by >our own Trevor Robinson. > >I think this is the most current series, so congratualtions Trevor. If >this show is a rerun, or if I have the wrong Trevor, my apologies for >the bandwidth. > >Mike Duchaj >Elgin, IL >In the process of rehandling my axe...... again. I'm trying a straight >handle this time. What the heck, I'll just break it anyway. Don't get me >started on the qualtiy of available handles...... > > >Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ >To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > ---- Start of Message 128379 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-01-27 17:40:05 Subject: Re: St. Roy and the stone age It's funny Roger, I've had the same experience with steel--- swell post--AND topic; gAM in Seattle What most people associate with sharpening stone tools is actually resharpening. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128380 ---- From: hb Date: 2004-01-27 18:25:13 Subject: undo Glue? swmbo has purchased an old chest and it needs to be repaired. I am stymied by the glued together joints that need to be undone to repair an inset panel. The piece was manufactured in the 1910's or 1920's and the overspilled glue is an amber color. Sort of looks like hardened sap on a tree. Can anyone give me information on how to loosen this stuff to get the joints apart? thanks. HB in very white Reading PA. Shoveling again tomorrow! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128381 ---- From: "David Clapp" Date: 2004-01-27 20:29:13 Subject: Re: Neander Norm Jon McCoy wrote: >It's actually hard to explain how revolutionary it is, until you've had one >yourself. But it really will change the way you watch TV. Jon, may I be so ignorant and expose it to all galoots: What is a TV? David Clapp IL _________________________________________________________________ Rethink your business approach for the new year with the helpful tips here. http://special.msn.com/bcentral/prep04.armx ---- Start of Message 128382 ---- From: gary may Date: 2004-01-27 18:38:01 Subject: Hollow Plane, but not quite Hi guys--- I had a swell time at this year's first meeting of the PNTC, in West Seattle---we'll be having 10 more meetings in '04, five of them in Washington, including the bi-annual "Best in the West" held in Fife, Washington this summer. We're also meeting in Grangeville, Idaho, I believe for the first time ever, in July. And of course, four meetings in Oregon, also in fresh-air country. to all of you who are not lucky enough to belong to such a cool tool club, and that pretty much IS all of you---Neener, Neener, Neener. Don't hate me because I'm lucky---help me figure out this cool plane I bought---it's very much like a typical round plane, but cuts a full 90o of arc (from about a 1" circle) and a little vee-groove on the right; the blade is sharpened to a point almost like a snipe bill on this edge. I don't think the guy I got it from realized it's a rare plane---I do, but what kind of plane? It's made by John Bell, of Philadelphia, and looks pretty good after a gentle scrubbing with a brass toothbrush in a breadpan full of paint thinner. I also bought, from a fellow named Bretton Wade, a Marples 1 1/4" cranked paring chisel, which is no more than 1/8" thick. It may have been thicker before I spent an hour flattening the back---it must have been---but I was only taking off a little discoloration. That's some hard steel, guys. Bretton's going to England soon---let's cross our fingers in the hope that he'll find something truly unique and exotic. The joke will certainly be on him. best to all galoots, everywhere; GAM in Seattle __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ---- Start of Message 128383 ---- From: "Robert Brown" Date: 2004-01-27 19:43:36 Subject: Table redesign/rebuild Esteemed Galoots, About 10 years ago I built a table from salvaged redwood, with a very poor design. The top is about 3.5 ft x 5 ft. The aprons were built-up using nails and glue, and the grain on the top runs across the short dimension, so it sags badly. The legs have mortises that don't allow apron tenons to meet, and that run up all the way to the leg tops, leaving no end grain to help constrain apron tenons from vertical movement. The legs are also split from having side-drilled and -threaded pipes inserted in holes bored down the leg centres, with over-tightened bolts through diagonal wooden corner brackets. To help fix these problems I propose the following solutions: 1. Fix the aprons. Replace them with single continuous pieces of cedar. (It's virtually impossible to obtain redwood in Winnipeg, and I have some 4/4 x 4" cedar that matches very well). Deepen aprons at ends to provide stronger joints to legs. 2. Turn legs upside down and taper them down towards feet to cut off the old mortises. Either mortise the aprons into the new leg tops, leaving some end grain at the leg tops, or attach aprons to legs with sliding dovetails. 3. Fix problems with the top. First I thought of slotted, tenoned breadboard ends running across 5 ft of tabletop grain, but the breadboard ends would rarely or never be the same length as the top; expansion could be up to 1" over the entire length. (Or 1/2" at ends if pinned at middle.) Then I thought, if the top is supported on continuous aprons, why not join the top directly to the aprons via sliding dovetails? The sliding dovetail male parts could be cut into upper edges of long aprons, with sections cut out about every 4". The top would have a corresponding dovetail slot, cut every 4" to accept apron "pins". The top could then be dropped down over the aprons, and slid 4" in the correct direction to lock it in place. My hope is to come up with a design that allows the table to be knocked down if necessary, and still be strong. For instance, the long aprons could be permanently joined to legs, but short aprons could be joined to legs with removeable sliding dovetails, with fairly wide tapers. Are these ideas just too wacky? Your comments would be appreciated. In reverent appreciation of the SGFH, Rob in Winnipeg Galoot Canuck ...waiting for tomorrow's -47C with wind chill... to be over! _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418 ---- Start of Message 128384 ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 2004-01-27 21:52:39 Subject: Re: hand boring large hole Hi, Tim and Others There are expansion bits that go up to 3". That large a diameter works much better in soft wood than in hard wood, though. There are also hole cutters to be used in bit braces. They don't remove all the wood from the hole but have one or two cutters on an arm or arms extending out from the shaft, so they remove a disk of wood -- also best in soft wood. Trevor ---- Start of Message 128385 ---- From: Ralph Brendler Date: 2004-01-27 20:56:04 Subject: Re: Hollow Plane, but not quite Gary May asks: > Don't hate me because I'm lucky---help me figure out this cool > plane I bought---it's very much like a typical round plane, but cuts > a full 90o of arc (from about a 1" circle) and a little vee-groove on > the right; the blade is sharpened to a point almost like a snipe bill > on this edge. I don't think the guy I got it from realized it's a > rare plane---I do, but what kind of plane? Without a pic it's hard to tell, but I have two guesses... Table Rounds are round planes that are "rounder" than a normal 1/6 circle, used for cutting half of a drop-leaf table joint. They were sold in pairs with a corresponding hollow for the other side of the joint. Could be one of these, but these are fairly scarce (particularly with American marks). The other (more likely, IMO) possibility is that it is an owner mod. I see a LOT of woodies that those crazy old timers have converted into special-purpose profiles. What were they thinking?! Didn't they know they were ruining the collector value? ;-) -- Ralph Brendler, Chicago, IL - OTLM, ENB, FOYBIPO "Science works even if you don't believe in it..." - Penn Jillette ---- Start of Message 128386 ---- From: "M.Stadulis" Date: 2004-01-27 22:04:30 Subject: Re: undo Glue? HB..........sounds like hide glue. Try hot water on a portion and see if it gets gelatinous. Regards, Michael Stadulis Gloucester County, New Jersey ----- Original Message ----- From: "hb" To: "oldtools" Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 9:25 PM Subject: [oldtools] undo Glue? > swmbo has purchased an old chest and it needs to be > repaired. I am stymied by the glued together joints > that need to be undone to repair an inset panel. > > The piece was manufactured in the 1910's or 1920's > and the overspilled glue is an amber color. Sort of > looks like hardened sap on a tree. > > Can anyone give me information on how to loosen this > stuff to get the joints apart? > > thanks. > > HB in very white Reading PA. Shoveling again tomorrow! > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ > > Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 128387 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-01-27 21:19:08 Subject: Re: Hollow Plane, but not quite GAM said: > Bretton's going to England soon---let's cross our fingers in the > hope that he'll find something truly unique and exotic. > The joke will certainly be on him. GAM, No matter what he finds, I'm sure we will all believe his story - right? Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ---- Start of Message 128388 ---- From: Ron Banks Date: 2004-01-27 19:21:26 Subject: Re: St. Roy and the stone age Andrew, Very interesting! Talk about a cultural gloat for the Chinese! At the risk of sounding like I'm baiting for someone to come up with a joke about current-day Chinese tool factories, I have to ask the question -- what has the research suggested they were mass producing the stone tools for? As stone tools were often one-time-use tools, or sometimes weren't carried when raw materials were abundant (i.e. arrowheads/spearheads often break on impact), is there any evidence of a trading network in the region, or any religious affiliation with the tool-making? As a kid, I always found it fascinating (still do) to come across an ancient flintknapping site in East Texas. It usually pretty much looked as if the flint-knapper had just left and forgot to clean up his "shavings," actually these were usually revealed in shallow washes and dirt roads after a rain. My dad would go hunting for these sites in Delta county on weekends 10 months of the year (us kids in tow, being asked ahead of time not to drag our feet). He had an uncanny knack for locating points and often found broken points among the flakes. He had collected several thousand points over his lifetime (within a 100 mile radius), and while it's now considered politically incorrect, at the time he was driven to find them as much to connect with a part of his heritage that he supressed common knowledge of, as to gather up as much as possible before the entire area got covered with prime Striper fishing grounds. Over the course of his last 40 years, he worked in concert with SMU's archaeology dept., helping them to find and catalog as many sites as possible before the lake went in. He never carried a trowel, pick or shovel, and never disturbed the soil, preferring to let nature (rain, insects, and animals) do the excavation for him. He could still spot a ceremonial point, or the remaining contents of a medicine bag in an ant-hill from 100' away when in his sixties. But the real gems he led us kids to were those flakes, the occasional grind-stone, the bits of deer antler, etc. It was always mixed joy and sadness I saw in his face in one moment when he'd find them, and the feeling of being in church was communicated even better than anytime we sat together in a modern religious edifice. It always felt like we had just missed an opportunity to watch the worker in action, even though his work had usually only been just uncovered less than a day within a half millenium or more. Just the sound of the wind in the trees, my mom, my dad, us kids, and the 1000 year old guy with a messy workshop. Thanks for helping to stir a happy memory from my childhood! Sincerely, Ron Banks Fort Worth, TX --- Andrew Midkiff wrote: > I'm impressed! Any pictures of what you've made? Do > you work in one style (clovis, etc), neolithic, > paleolithic? I ask because while not as familiar > with > the types found in Europe and the Americas, I am > more > familiar with both Paleolithic and Neolithic stone > tools from China. (my master's degree was a mixture > of > Chinese archaeology and art history). There's an > interesting find they made lately in Southern China > of > what appears to be a stone tool production site with > evidence of division of labor. > http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200303/27/eng20030327_114107.shtml > > If you ever want to really challenge yourself, try > reproducing one of the late Danish pieces. They were > reproducing metal forms from neighboring areas where > the metals were more abundant. > http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/2002septemberdanishdaggpage3.htm > I see them like transitional planes. :-) > > Someone mentioned, or perhaps I read somewhere > recently about carving up an elephant with stone > tools. Here's an excerpt of the account. > http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/dept/d10/asb/lost_tribes/Carve.html > > Let's all raise a cup to Homo Habilis, the "Handy > Man" > from whom all Galoots descend. > > AAAndrew > It can't get much more old-tool than this. > > > > --- Roger wrote: > > OK I have been biting my tongue on the > flintknapping > > issue. I have > > several 80 gallon rubbermaid tubs full of rock out > > back from obsidian to > > high grade flint. I have been flintknapping > > seriously since 1993. For > > years before that I tried, but there is one book I > > can HIGHLY reccomend > > to anyone who might want to try thier hand at the > > most neander of galoot > > crafts. The book is "Making and understanding > stone > > tools" by John > > Whittaker. An excellent read. It explains all > the > > physics behind what > > is happening in a way most of us can understand. > I > > have esperimented > > with doing some woodworking with stone tools and > my > > obserations are thus: > > the bulk of the wood was either split or > > burned/charred off first > > most stone tools are ment to be used as scrapers > on > > wood. About the > > only time knifelike edges and motions work is when > > you are working FLESH > > (i.e. butchering an animal...or yourself) > > > > I made a hickory bow using just wood and stone > tools > > (ok, I cut it down > > with an iron axe). It works, but it is not an > feat > > I am eager to repeat > > anytime soon. > > It is a good feeling to know oyu cna go anywhere > in > > the world and find > > material to make simple tools though. > > > > Materials I have knapped: > > Flint > > Chert > > Obsidian > > Slag Glass > > Television tubes (TIVO be damned!) > > bottle bottoms > > ashtrays > > aquarium glass > > glass and ceramic insulators > > china plates > > toilet bowls (know in knapping circles as > > Johnnystone or Thunderstone) > > Hard candy > > You can also knap ice, but they don't last long > > > > Roger in Alabama > > > > > > > > Archive: > > > http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web > > interface: > > > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. > Try it! > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ > > Archive: > http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/ > To unsubscribe or change options, use the web > interface: > http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools ---- Start of Message 128389 ---- From: "Frank" Date: 2004-01-27 21:24:53 Subject: Re: hand boring large hole Did the forstner bits made for braces get this large? Alas, I have not a one! So I do not know. Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trevor Robinson" To: "oldtools" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] hand boring large hole > Hi, Tim and Others > There are expansion bits that go up to 3". That large a diameter > works much better in soft wood than in hard wood, though. There are also > hole cutters to be used in bit braces. They don't remove all the wood from > the hole but have one or two cutters on an arm or arms extending out from > the shaft, so they remove a disk of wood -- also best in soft wood. > Trevor ---- Start of Message 128390 ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-01-27 22:04:15 Subject: Veneer THANKS Greetings GG's I recently trolled for sources for crotch grain mahogany veneer. The consensus seemed to be Certainly Woods in New York. I ordered and the goodies arrived today. SPECTACULAR! I expected long splits... none. I expected that the fancy crotch grain would fizzle out as it neared one end of the sheets...not. Beautiful grain end to end. If anyone need some premium veneer, I can heartily recommend this dealer. No connection blah blah balh Thanks to the Super Porch! Tom ---- Start of Message 128391 ---- From: Thomas Johnson Date: 2004-01-27 22:54:56 Subject: Yearly WTB Greetings GG's Time to once again troll my WTB's past the Porch. I think almost everyone knows my mad/crazy addiction to Erik Anton Berg edge tools.... so IF you have anything that you're thinking of parting with....... ALso, still looking for LARGE Russell Jennings auger bits in sizes 25, 27, 29, 30, 31 & 32 Casey and Co. hollows and rounds: pairs #1, 3, 5, 13, 15, 19 and 9h / 11r / 17r / 20h / 24 r Maples (Hibernia Works) hollows and rounds in #11 pair, 14 pair, and 15 round. Ya gotta try Thanks TOm ---- Start of Message 128392 ---- From: "Bretton Wade" Date: 2004-01-27 21:30:26 Subject: RE: Hollow Plane, but not quite I saw the plane in question, and was initially surprised to see the additional edge. I initially took the plane to be a thick hollow. Gary speculated as to whether or not the plane was designed to follow itself. I speculated as to whether or not it was supposed to be a combined hollow and snipe bill. If I can get over to West Seattle, I'll see about snapping a pic for GAM. > Table Rounds are round planes that are "rounder" than a normal 1/6 > circle, used for cutting half of a drop-leaf table joint. They were > sold in pairs with a corresponding hollow for the other side of the > joint. Could be one of these, but