---- Start of Message 90001 ---- From: "C. McArdle" How do you adjust the magnitude of set? My Morril set has a rotating anvil >with different angles. This is a little more intuitive, but less comfortable >to use. I don't have a Morril to look at, but are you sure that the rotating anvil has "different" angles? My intuition is that the angles on the rotating disk are all the same, and the purpose of the rotating anvil is only to move the fulcrum (over which the tooth is bent) up or down depending on size of the teeth; hence the numbering to coincide with varying TPI. I don't think the rotating anvil is intended to have anything to do with the amount of set but only controls the point at which the tooth is bent. Strictly speaking one can control the set this way; bending the tooth closer to it's base means the top is forced out further, thus more set, but I think the bending angle is the same. While one could control the set this way, I don't think this was the manufacturer's intent. Also, my feeling is that for consistent results, the sawset should be allowed to rest directly on top of the teeth and not be lifted up or down to control where the tooth is bent; let the rotating anvil ! control this :^) I believe the actual amount of set produced is controlled by the lower adjustment knob (not present on all models) which should be in contact with the saw blade while setting the teeth. This effectively holds the sawset in a constant plane as one moves down the saw, ensuring that all teeth get the same amount of set. Many cheaper sawsets don't have this second indexing knob, and in this case it's up to the operator to ensure consistency by holding the sawset in a consistent plane. Disclaimer... the above info may be all hot air, but it seems to work for me :^) -mike ___________________________________________________________________________ Visit http://www.visto.com/info, your free web-based communications center. Visto.com. Life on the Dot. ---- Start of Message 90003 ---- From: esther.heller@k... Date: 2001-02-16 15:35:00 Subject: Re: OLDTOOLS digest 5822 From: Esther Heller Larry paying attention to the details, asks: Ralph, Step 2 below is unclear to me. You say to use "eGroups" in your name, but the example you show does not include "egroups", or else that is really step 2a, and the example for step 2 is missing. Regards, Larry Attaboy! I was wondering who whould get it first. ;-) Use (archive) per the example. Ralph was thinking about using eGroups when we were discussing this but he is trying to be more generic. He was also getting the message out before his next scheduled emergency at work. So the drill is (_if_ you read from eGroups _and_ are subscribed _and_ postponed to post): 1. Unsubscribe 2. Resubscribe including (archive) in your name 3. Postpone. If you don't read at eGroups this will not affect you at all. If you do read from eGroups and are subscribed and postponed, the day will come when your subscription will automatically disappear because of how long you have been postponed unless (archive) is part of your name. I am in the process of rewriting the appropriate sections of the perennially fascinating FAQ to reflect this. If anything is unclear, ask Ralph or me at oldtools-owner@l... Esther oldtools listmom The following are the detailed instructions Larry quoted: > ========== > > Step 1: Unsubscribe > > Send a mail to the listserver (listserv@l... with the > body: > > unsub oldtools > > This will cancel your oldtools subscription > > Step 2: Resubscribe with "eGroups" in your name > > Re-enable your oldtools account by sending a mail with the body: > > subscribe oldtools John Smith (archive) > > to the listserver (obviously you should put your name, not "John Smith" > ). The "(archive)" part is really important-- this is what will keep you > from getting dropped when we clean up. Cornell will send you a confirmation > mail, which you need to respond to to turn your OldTools account on. > > Step 3: Postpone yourself again > > Send the command: > > set oldtools mail postpone > > To the listserver, and you will be back where you were. > > ========== > ---- Start of Message 90004 ---- From: michael Lindgren Cheaper, plus the fact that they work as good as any block >plane. Problems..1. The usual one of getting used to setting the >iron. 2. Finding a good rabbet with a tight enough mouth. I bought a Matheson 1 1/2" skew rabbet plane 7-8 years ago for very little, and cleaned, sharpened and made it work as best I could. Which was not very well, since I didn't know much. Over the years it has starting working better, funny how an inanimate object can learn to do the job better over time... Any way, last night, as happens to me often enough, I ended up looking at a great big sloppily cut tenon that badly needed cleanup. Pulled the rabbet out and cleaned up the tenon cheeks in no time. Sort of a pain to set the iron just right in comparison to the iron planes, but they do a nice job in places where you don't want your plane to have cheeks, and for not much money to boot. Best regards, Mike Lindgren ---- Start of Message 90005 ---- From: "Michael S Davies" The skew is nice, but not necessary. I wouldn't worry about it. >I've got a skewed set of middle-pitch H&Rs by MacKenzie (a fairly common >British maker), and I wouldn't trade them for anything (except Mike Davies' >even nicer set of half-pitch odd sizes)... ;-) Yeah, when I saw Ralph jumping in on this thread I figured he'd be braggin' on his skewed set and thought I'd better tune in and make sure he stayed honest. Now that I see he added the necessary disclaimers, I can once again say how proud I am to have him as such an honest and unbiased list Mom! Thanks -Mike :^) ___________________________________________________________________________ Visit http://www.visto.com/info, your free web-based communications center. Visto.com. Life on the Dot. ---- Start of Message 90006 ---- From: Ghio Bill Why do we want a low-angle and regular angle? I have a low-angle, > and I've > been happy with it. The only thing I can think of is that it cuts > very very > slowly. So maybe a regular angle is a little more aggressive? Hi fellow block heads. (joke, joke--) I use my block planes mainly for what I call clean-up, and I like one that cuts fairly fast but is small enough to handle easily with one hand--the smaller the better. I sort of swipe it along all the sharp edges a few times and across the joints to ease and level things up so the work doesn't look quite so amateurish. I pretty much always hold my planes so they are skewed to the cut, so that isn't unique to the block plane work. Unlike Shannon, I find that I have been using a 21 degree plane (a Stanley #18 or equivalent) more often than the low angle plane; it just seems a lot easier to use because, as he observes, it is more aggressive, and because the setting is much less delicate. And the throat gap is a less critical. I have a #140. It was a gift from a good friend, and I value it for that, but don't use it much. My buddy James, who is a professional carpenter, gave it to me because he didn't use it at all. It is really tricky to adjust the blade, for one thing; you have to get the angle of the edge just right and at the same time line it up with the edge. And if you are working without the fence (which I do because I don't HAVE the fence), it is hard to get it to track right because the blade pulls the tool to the right. So be careful not to cut yourself on the work if you use it for edge or end work. Umm, what else. It is pretty good for cleaning up rabbets. But, so is a wooden rabbet plane, which costs a _lot_ less. And finally, don't forget that they are subject to breakage. That throat is a serious weakness on the Stanley originals. Tom L-N has addressed that problem with malleable iron or brass, of course, but there is still some possibility of flex or bending damage. Not to disparage L-N tools. I don't have any, and would like to get one someday. My first choice would probably be a #112 (scraper plane, Jeff) though. I think that it was Pat Leach who described the #140 as a tool without a mission. Or something like that. He doesn't think much of the Stanley #6 try planes either, though, and I have to respectfully disagree with him on that one. Phil Koontz In sunny Galena AK ---- Start of Message 90008 ---- From: Anthony Seo mission. Or something like that. He doesn't think much of the Stanley >#6 try planes either, though, and I have to respectfully disagree with >him on that one. I'm not quite sure where he comes from on that, (other than the collector bias against them). Fore or Trying (English) planes are plenty common enough in the woody side of things. I probably see more of those than I do the bigger jointers. (By definition these are planes from 18 to 22 inches long). Obviously the longer length is better for edge jointing, but for flattening, I have never seen (in practice) where that extra length gives you any flatter surface. FWIW Tony ---- Start of Message 90009 ---- From: garyallan may the small size of the 60 1/2 and the precision of the screw feed blade > advancment make it the one I keep grabbing. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---- Start of Message 90010 ---- From: garyallan may Bretton asks: > > >>I'm not sure I understand. I have a #54 that says > damaskeened on the > etching, which I rehandled, brutishly sharpened and > use. Are you saying > that the saw originally had an acid etched > appearance to show off the > layering of steel? >> > > I'm pretty sure that is the case. I have a > damaskeened saw on which the > etching is pretty strong, but I see no sign of the > damaskeened finish > that the writing on the saw says is there. It must > be pretty fragile, > because I sure don't see it. But I don't think there > is any layering of > the steel. I think the manufacturers just discovered > a way to make the > surface look pretty, and then advertised it. The > first time you remove > he rust, the damaskeened finish is gone. > > Jim Thompson > > -- > ---- Start of Message 90011 ---- From: "Stephen Reynolds" From: Mark Keenum To: ralph.brendler@a... lsoloway@e... "'OldTools List'" Subject: Re: Thanks and WTB -- H&R Half Set (was C.Nurse & Sons) >Date: Fri, Feb 16, 2001, 2:56 PM > > Bad news Ralph, Lew, and other woody loving galoots. > Click on http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/0807.html to > see what Tony Murland's latest price is for a 1/2 set > of H&R's. > I just knew it. I was more than just a little disappointed when I missed Tony's sale on harlequin sets. This was back in Oct. of 1999. I had heard of the $125 blowout on this porch. But by the time I contacted him it was back at the $250 regular price. But I had a hunch that that was still a bargain price. Tom Price saw mine and put in an order soon afterwards. The price was up by the time he got his, and it has continued to increase. You don't see a lot of these sets at 'Murican flea markets. They are a somewhat rare thing, and demand is much past supply. Grab 'em while you can. And you can't go wrong with Tony, a real nice guy. Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 90012 ---- From: Darrell & Kathy Ever watch Norm (naw, what self-respecting Galoot would do that?) as he > grabs a b*tt*ry powered hand drill and drills his pilot hole for a screw > complete w/ counter sink? Almost makes you wish you had such a tool, doesn't > it? Last week at the PAST meeting in San Diego I found a square tanged > countersink bit. Hey, I keep one of my large hand drills (a battered but serviceable two-speed Millers Falls) loaded with one o'them Norm countersink bits. Works just fine. Till now. Dang it all Bill, now I gotta get me one o' them thangs! Sheesh. Just when the Tool Racks were starting to look like they was stabilizin'. > There you have it, Bill's got a new toy... Like I said before, Norm may have a special power tool fer ev'ry job, but we Galoots got at least a half dozen special hand tools fer ev'ry job ;^) Darrell -- Darrell LaRue Oakville ON FOYBIPO, Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User ---- Start of Message 90013 ---- From: Jack Kamishlian > > Bad news Ralph, Lew, and other woody loving galoots. > > Click on http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/0807.html to > > see what Tony Murland's latest price is for a 1/2 set > > of H&R's. > > > I just knew it. I was more than just a little disappointed when I > missed Tony's sale on harlequin sets. This was back in Oct. of 1999. > I had heard of the $125 blowout on this porch. But by the time I > contacted him it was back at the $250 regular price. But I had a > hunch that that was still a bargain price. Tom Price saw mine and put > in an order soon afterwards. The price was up by the time he got his, > and it has continued to increase. You don't see a lot of these sets > at 'Murican flea markets. They are a somewhat rare thing, and demand > is much past supply. Grab 'em while you can. And you can't go wrong > with Tony, a real nice guy. > > Regards, > Steve > > -- ---- Start of Message 90016 ---- From: Minch Like I said before, Norm may have a special power tool fer ev'ry job, > but we Galoots got at least a half dozen special hand tools fer ev'ry > job ;^) I saw something I had never seen before at an auction last week. It was bits to fit a pushdrill a la 41, but instead of that little butterfly profile that they all have, this was twist drills. There were about 6-8 little manila envelopes, all marked Stanley, each with 5 of a different size inside. I viewed the auction in the afternoon, but when I went back, someone had borrowed them. Why would they be any better than the reg'lar bits - it seems like they would be worse! Ed minch ---- Start of Message 90017 ---- From: Adam I don't have a Morril to look at, but are you sure that the rotating anvil has >"different" angles? My intuition is that the angles on the rotating disk are >all the same, and the purpose of the rotating anvil is only to move the fulcrum >(over which the tooth is bent) up or down depending on size of the teeth; That's exactly how it is. Time for new glasses! Thanks for setting me straight (get it?) Adam ---- Start of Message 90018 ---- From: "Bretton Wade" I agree, I too ordered a set of even H&Rs for the $250 price, within a month > after ordering them I purchased the odd set to make a full set. They had > already gone up $75 by that time. > > John > > > > > Bad news Ralph, Lew, and other woody loving galoots. > > > Click on http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/0807.html to > > > see what Tony Murland's latest price is for a 1/2 set > > > of H&R's. > > > > > I just knew it. I was more than just a little disappointed when I > > missed Tony's sale on harlequin sets. This was back in Oct. of 1999. > > I had heard of the $125 blowout on this porch. But by the time I > > contacted him it was back at the $250 regular price. But I had a > > hunch that that was still a bargain price. Tom Price saw mine and put > > in an order soon afterwards. The price was up by the time he got his, > > and it has continued to increase. You don't see a lot of these sets > > at 'Murican flea markets. They are a somewhat rare thing, and demand > > is much past supply. Grab 'em while you can. And you can't go wrong > > with Tony, a real nice guy. > > > > Regards, > > Steve > > ---- Start of Message 90022 ---- From: "Ron Huebner" I'm with you guys all the way! I get 90% of the use > out of 10% of my planes, and the 60-1/2 is the one > I always grab first for all the small work. I removed the > cam adjuster and replaced it with a small washer so > I can set the mouth opening very fine and I also have > one of Rev. Hock's A-2 cryo arns in mine. (Nice blade) > Why, even James Krenov pays homage to the little > 60-1/2 on pg. 102 of his "The Fine Art of Cabinetmaking". > Wayne > I used the #60-1/2 a lot but my favourite block planes without any doubt is the Record #018 with its really comfortable knuckle jointed lever cap. John ---- Start of Message 90027 ---- From: dsoldtools@j... Date: 2001-02-16 13:56:00 Subject: Somebody sent me a worm I just resubscribed to this list about three days ago using an account that I use exclusively for the list. Just this morning I received the 'Snow White' worm. That means somebody on this list, possibly but not necessarily someone who wrote to me recently has the worm. The Snow White worm mails itself to names in the Outlook Express address book--and forges the from: and reply to: headers disguisng it's point of origin. I don't know if other software is also vulnerable. This one came from here: Received: from postoffice6.ipa.net (postoffice6.ipa.net [205.218.170.27]) Do any of you recognize this as your mail server? Also, several spammers are infected with this worm and have kept it in circulation for years now. So this may be evidence that some spammer has scraped email addresses off of this list. I've never seen the listmoms address the issue of worms on the list. Now would be a good time, my aplogies in advance if they have and I missed it. Doug Caprette Greenbelt, MD USA "What's half an inch between friends? Mind you, it can be quite a bit between lovers!" -- Ed Winslow ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---- Start of Message 90028 ---- From: FrankSronce > I used the #60-1/2 a lot but my favourite block planes without any doubt is > the Record #018 with its really comfortable knuckle jointed lever cap. > ---- Start of Message 90029 ---- From: "Charles Driggs" Darrell added ..... > I have a bit marked "BATES". It looks for all the world like any other > number 9 Jennings style auger bit. No fancy double spurs. Just a bit. Now, I gather Eric Coyle is up in Canada somewhere, Darrell's in Oakville, Ontario, and my "possibly Bates" Jennings style bit came from Buffalo .... could Bates have been an Ontario manufacturer of tools? Charlie ---- Start of Message 90030 ---- From: "C. McArdle" I made a chamfer plane as shown by Whelan. It has a 45 degree V in the >sole and a sliding stop block that sets the chamfer width and acts as the >mouth and sole. The block is relieved to form abutments and allow >shavings to pass. My only question is if the wedge should have the >typical ramp as seen on bench planes where only the outside edges contact >the abutments and the middle is sloped to improve shaving clearance. >Whelan's book doesn't show this, but looking down in the throat of the >plane it looks like it would help. Hi Scott I don't know if it _should_ --and I've never seen a real, live, old-timey one of these Mander-Dillon planes-- but I did exactly this when I built mine: http://www.sover.net/~nichael/nlc-wood/planes.html The important thing is I think you're right; it would darn hard for shavings to pass out without the "ramp" (hmmm, is there a formal/technical name for this?) In short, aside from the fact that the front of the throat is formed by the stop, it's pretty much a normal throat in all other respects. (Also, if you look at the picture of the plane on the first page of that chapter in Whelan's book, you can [well, at least it _seems_ to me that I can] see the faintest darkening (or a shadow) in the middle part of the wedge as it disappears into the throat. This darkening starts at a line on a level with the top of the stop. I think that's the beginning of the ramp.) Nichael (And, Scott: Don't forget the pictures when you're done.) ---- Start of Message 90035 ---- From: John Lederer Greetings: > > I hadn't intended to continue the public discussion of the term narse, but > it seems there continues to be some speculation. Since Kirk Hays hasn't > spoken up, I'll convey what we've come uncovered. ---- Start of Message 90036 ---- From: Trevor Robinson Nichael Cramer wrote: > > I don't know if it _should_ --and I've never seen a > real, live, old-timey one of these Mander-Dillon planes-- > but I did exactly this when I built mine: > > http://www.sover.net/~nichael/nlc-wood/planes.html > I ended up doing it that way. I certainly can't see any harm in it. > > (And, Scott: Don't forget the pictures when you're done.) > Heck, I could've just pulled yours into a photo editor and mirror imaged it. Mine looks identical except I put the screw for locking down the stop on the right side rather than the left: http://members.home.net/sepost/chamfer_plane.html It was a quick, easy plane to make and works quite well. It takes a moment to get used to starting the cut on the stop block rather than the sole resting on the workpiece, but once I got the hang of that I'm very pleased. Of course, a block plane works equally well, but this will save me the effort of scribing lines to work to since I don't have enough of an eye for symmetry to plane a chamfer without them. Oh, and the oil smell has pretty much dispersed so I'm not giving up on the idea of heat treating in the basement on cold days. :-) -- Scott Post sepost@h... http://members.home.net/sepost ---- Start of Message 90038 ---- From: "Michael D. Sullivan" > > > On 16 Feb 2001 13:26:28 -0800 John B.Chesnut writes: > > Hi Stan: > > > > "In fact, concentrated Nitric acid is shipped in aluminum bottles." > > > > No offense intended by the following: > > Sorry, but I can't believe this. It may well be true, but I would > > find that very shocking. Where did you learn this (if it is true I > > want to know all about it)? > > > > > > Twas me who wrote that, not sure who Stan is. > > Several sources, inorganic text books and so on, plus, when > I was a teenager visiting my father at the BF Goodrich Research > Center in Brecksville, OH there was a whol row of them sitting > outside one of the buildings. > > -- > Doug Caprette Greenbelt, MD USA > > "What's half an inch between friends? Mind you, it can be quite a bit > between lovers!" > -- Ed Winslow ________________________________________________________________________ Get your own free, private space on the Web at http://www.intranets.com. ---- Start of Message 90040 ---- From: "C. McArdle" >Do any of the galooti generalus, their friends, relatives, or acquaintances >recall EVER seeing references, patents, jigs or ANYTHING that used an >upside down back or hand saw. > >Cowtown Eric Eric I'ld look in Eciffo Tnetap archives. Gary Gary Roberts I'm not quite sure where he comes from on that, (other than the collector > bias against them). Fore or Trying (English) planes are plenty common > enough in the woody side of things. I probably see more of those than I do > the bigger jointers. (By definition these are planes from 18 to 22 inches > long). Obviously the longer length is better for edge jointing, but for > flattening, I have never seen (in practice) where that extra length gives > you any flatter surface. > Actually, I find it interesting that Stanley still make the #6, whereas some other sizes such as the #5-1/2 have already bit the dust. That does tend to indicate that the #6 is still popular enough to continue making it. John ---- Start of Message 90043 ---- From: Adam cowtown finished hosting the FNT (friday nite trivia...wworking stuff) on > superchat tonite and went down to the depths where he is fiddling with the > alpha design of a depth gauge for a back saw. (He likes to dado his MDF > stuff) > > the alpha design look suspiciously like a saw filing vice, and I'm sittin > there with this thing upside down in the vice, c clamps everywhere, backsaw > in it for spacing and he looks at it and says > > an upside down hammer becomes an anvil > an upside down plane becomes a jointer > > and thinks.... > > Never, never has he seen any reference to an upside down saw except the one > that that Tabatha woman invented that spins. > > Now, a recent job involved cutting muntins, and the concept of an upside > down saw for cutting muntin joints just seemed in this instance and instant > to make sense. A flash of stupidity or inspiration-who knows. > > > Grabbed a piece of muntin bar that was surplus and rubbed it back and forth > on the saw -cut to depth, moved it over, did it again, same depth. Broke > out the piece between the two cuts and presto, instant dado. A little > rubbing back and forth and there was a clean bottom. No substantive noise > or dust. This works, and can be made more precise with a little in-jig-nuity. > > Do any of the galooti generalus, their friends, relatives, or acquaintances > recall EVER seeing references, patents, jigs or ANYTHING that used an > upside down back or hand saw. > > Cowtown Eric > > > > > > -- ---- Start of Message 90045 ---- From: Minch He demonstrated using sawhorses with a 2x4 > brace across the top of the sheet metal to act as a pivot point as he > sheared the metal using the back of the saw blade. Did he use the teeth edge of the sw of the no-teeth edge of the saw?? Could you explain this setup a biy more?? Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 90046 ---- From: wright@k... Date: 2001-02-18 14:15:00 Subject: WTB: Stanley #49 I'm interested in buying a Stanley #49 or maybe a #48 T&G plane. If there is another kind of handtool useful for making grooves, I'd also be interested in that information. I'm still new to this hobby, so pardon my ignorance.... ---- Start of Message 90047 ---- From: Michael Recchione GG's > > A story and a question about converting logs into lumber: > > Yesterday I was splitting up a piece of a trunk of a maple tree. It was > 18" in diameter and 7' long. I used three steel splitting wedges, a maul and > a sledge hammer. I drove a crack from end to end, moving my wedges along as > I went. Then I rolled the log over and repeated the process on the other > side. I went cautiously, but the work went quickly. It took less than 20 > minutes to split the log. > > Next I tried making a split parallel to the center split. In essence, I was > trying to make a board, 18" wide and 4" thick. Didn't work. What did I do > wrong? Is there a technique for splitting wood across the rays? > > Adam Cherubini > > -- ---- Start of Message 90048 ---- From: "Todd and Betty Hughes" > The #6 is a popular size for a jointer in the (wooden) shipbuilding trades, which happens to be sited in and around the New England town which Stanley calls its home. ---- Start of Message 90050 ---- From: Michael Smith ".... Got a question for you tool collectors such as a axe > named "Silver Steel" by the Francis Axe Co. from > Buffalo N.Y. made in the 1870's... > Can anyone shed some more light on this item....." --------------------------------------------------------- Kauff mans book on American Axes list them as first making axes in 1907 and they are not listed in my copy of Directory of American Tool Makers which leads me to think also they are probably from the early 20th. century though I have never heard anything else about them.The term "Silver steel" was used by other tool makers , often appears on Saw etchings and I believe it was just some marketing hype.It seems if anybody could rivel sawmakers for big descriptions it was axemakers........Todd ---- Start of Message 90052 ---- From: "Bretton Wade" I'm interested in buying a Stanley #49 or > maybe a #48 T&G plane. If there is another > kind of handtool useful for making grooves, > I'd also be interested in that information. I'm > still new to this hobby, so pardon my > ignorance.... For tongue and grooves, there are a variety of tools that suit this need. MofA, aka Patrick Leach - author of Stanley Blood and Gore, doesn't like the #148/#149, but I found them quite comfortable to use, aside from the blister I got on my left thumb, and the somewhat sharp back edge of the blades. The #48s I've handled don't get around the latter problem, and it was perhaps the greater of the two evils. I have handled a few wooden T&G planes, too, and own a pair of Mathieson planes for this purpose. They are far more comfortable than any of the push me/pull me varieties, and a handled pair would probably be even nicer (I imagine so anyway). If all you want is to make grooves, and don't care about tongues, then what you want is a plow plane, or, depending on the kind of groove you want to make, a simple grooving plane might do. A grooving plane, IME, uses a fixed size blade, and has an adjustable fence rather like that on a moving filletster. My Mathieson (the old Scotsman) uses a 1/4" blade, and its utility has left me wondering what else I might need a plow plane for on more than one occasion. Plow planes usually have an adjustable fence that runs on a pair of rods. The most common wooden varieties are Yankee plows, which use a wedge to secure the arms, and the screw arm design which seems to be the most common. Other varieties are the (possibly superior) bridle arm, and the rare center wheel adjusting mechanism. Plows use a standard size blade body which has tips ground out in various sizes from 1/8" all the way up to 3/4" or more in some rare instances. Again, the "best made" ones have handles. Metal plow planes run the gamut from multiple blade single purpose plows, a la the Stanley 50, or the weatherstrip plows (I forget those numbers), to the combination planes, of which the Stanley 45 and 55 are relatively common examples. The list has also recently discussed the Record 43, a small hand held metal plow that is good for drawer bottom grooves, but not great for stopped grooves on small stock. A variety of this plane is in this quarter's FTJ, BTW. If money is an issue, I suggest wooden planes, and if you will use the plane, you don't need one in mint shape. It's also not necessary to get the "best made" with handles and fancy brass fittings. The normal grade of tools still works better than any tool you can buy new. For some reason, wooden plane skates always seem to have a curve to them, as in the "sole" of the skate isn't flat. You might want to flatten that. ---- Start of Message 90053 ---- From: Nichael Cramer > I'm interested in buying a Stanley #49 or >> maybe a #48 T&G plane. [...] To add a couple notes to Bretton's excellent response. 1] I think one question you should answer for yourself is how much T&G-ing do you plan to do? If the answer is quite a lot you probably want a dedicated tool. On the other hand if you don't plan to do all that much, you might want to consider a tool that will let you do something else in addition to T&Gs (e.g. this might be one more argument for getting, say, a #45 (Stanley multi-plane, Jeff) if you don't already have one). 2] Among the dedicated (iron) planes, I'd vote for the #148/9s (pushme-pullyou, double-ended T&G planes, Jeff). I just find mine handier/easier to use than my #48 (single T&G plane with a reversable fence, Jeff) --and, for some reason, they don't seem to cost much more. As Bretton suggests, the trick is learning to hold them. The following works for me (a trick I picked up from the Jim Kingshott video): Pinch the side of the toe between the thumb and forefigner of your non-pushing hand --sort of like you would hold the front of a jointer if you were shooting an edge. I find this helps me keep the plane vertical, as well. 3] Unlike Bretton, I don't care much for woodies T&Gs. I just find them too hard to keep in adjustment. Goes against my basic affection for woodies, but in this case, just not worth the effort. Hope this helps, Nichael P.S. If the swarm of model numbers is getting a bit much, see http://www.sover.net/~nichael/nlc-wood/stanref-num.html which is meant to serve as a index into Patrick's Blood & Gore. ---- Start of Message 90054 ---- From: "Alan N. Graham" an upside down hammer becomes an anvil > an upside down plane becomes a jointer > > Do any of the galooti generalus, their friends, relatives, or acquaintances > recall EVER seeing references, patents, jigs or ANYTHING that used an > upside down back or hand saw. As your examples would seem to indicate, the larger, heavier object becomes the stationary one, while the lighter object is manipulated against it. Thus, one works the wood on a six foot barrel jointer, not the other way around. Apart from the rotating devil Eric mentioned, most back or hand saws are lighter and easier to manipulate than the wood one would cut with them. This may be the answer behind the paucity of inverted back or hand saws. Then again, it may not... Alan N. Graham ---- Start of Message 90055 ---- From: "Brent Beach" Got a question for you tool collectors such as a axe > named "Silver Steel" by the Francis Axe Co. from > Buffalo N.Y. made in the 1870's does anyone have one > or know who might. ---- Start of Message 90056 ---- From: Dave Weisbord This is a little earlier than I have seen references to Silver Steel. My >recollection is that the term started being used, at least for saws, in >the early 1900's. Was >the term in use as early as 1870? Earlier than that. I had an early W.S. Butcher single jointer iron that was stamped Silver Steel. According to one of the English writers this was supposedly done as an early attempt to improve rust resistance. Tony ---- Start of Message 90059 ---- From: "Paul A. Coppinger" > Did he use the teeth edge of the sw of the no-teeth edge of the saw?? Could > you explain this setup a biy more?? > > Ed Minch > He used the teeth up and sheared with the back of the handsaw. I think he said they had a wooden frame in the Pacific that the sheetmetal fit into with a board across the top of the metal. The blade went between this board and the metal and as you pressed down with the saw handle, it pivoted against the board and sheared the metal below. For his demo with me, he used sawhorses with a 2x4 clamped across the top of the sheet metal. PAC ---- Start of Message 90060 ---- From: "Paddy P" Yesterday I was splitting up a piece of a trunk of a maple tree. > It took less than 20 minutes to split the log. > Next I tried making a split parallel to the center split. In essence, I was > trying to make a board, 18" wide and 4" thick. Didn't work. I found (and I'm sure I read someplace) that you always have to split billets in half. When you try to split unequal portions the smaller side will run out. I've made thick, horribly uneven "planks" of basswood and willow by splitting the log in half, and then hewing off the round face of the half log (notch & chop). Generally I use riven wood for turnings, like that chunk of ash sitting on my workbench now, waiting for the sliding dovetails to be cut (hopefully on it's way to becoming a shaker-style candle stand). Darrell -- Darrell LaRue Oakville ON FOYBIPO, Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User ---- Start of Message 90062 ---- From: garyallan may Cowtown Eric ponders: > > > an upside down hammer becomes an anvil > > an upside down plane becomes a jointer > > > > > Do any of the galooti generalus, their friends, > relatives, or > acquaintances > > recall EVER seeing references, patents, jigs or > ANYTHING that used > an > > upside down back or hand saw. > > As your examples would seem to indicate, the larger, > heavier object > becomes the stationary one, while the lighter object > is manipulated > against it. > > Thus, one works the wood on a six foot barrel > jointer, not the other > way around. Apart from the rotating devil Eric > mentioned, most back or > hand saws are lighter and easier to manipulate than > the wood one would > cut with them. > > This may be the answer behind the paucity of > inverted back or hand > saws. Then again, it may not... > > > Alan N. Graham > > -- > ---- Start of Message 90063 ---- From: Steve Knight In the past, I have "corrected" this situation. Now, having seen more sets >with the same characteristic, I'm hesitant. Has anyone else experienced >this? Is the tongue supposed to be perfected with a shoulder plane? could be to accommodate the shrinkage of wood. Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes +Galoot Made Products- Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions. ---- Start of Message 90064 ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Sorta on this topic, who's got a galoot-powered > circular saw going, anyone? I know of at least one Listmom who's got one... and you can see actual pics of it no less! http://www.mcs.net/~brendler/oldtools/barnes/barnes.htm - Bill Taggart - At home with NO Galoot-powered circular saws in Califon, NJ, USA ---- Start of Message 90065 ---- From: Don McConnell Could anyone give me some info on the following:#4 hollow marked S Green >with old style wedge, a 91/2 in. x 3 inch moulder marked T Wheeler and >another 3 inch moulder 13 1/2 inches jackplane style marked ? Holmes.Any >help would be appreciated and thanks in advance. W. L. Goodman, _British Planemkers from 1700_, has the following listings: GREEN, Samuel BRISTOL Rare 35 Montague St. <1774-1785> Cyder-house-passage 1793-1797 Broad Mead 1799-1801 WHEELER, THOMAS READING Broad St. 1790-1826 With regard to Holmes, there are a couple of possibilities in Goodman: HOLMES, Charles YORK Scriveners Court, Bishophill 1851-1876 HOMES, I. Planes range from 10" to 9 1/2" but mostly over-length. We need more reports before we can be certain that he is a commercial maker. Just to confuse things, there are a couple of Holmes' listings in Pollaks' _A Guide to the Makers of American Wooden Planes_. I'm including these just to cover the bases. I.P.HOLMES "A Berwick, ME, planemaker whose working dates are unknown. Appearance is ca 1850. *** "[This one unlikely as the only stamp shown includes the town's name.] J.HOLMES " Examples reported are made of yellow birch or cherry, all 9 3/8" to 9 1/2 long, with wide flat chamfers. Several have irons with a blacksmith touch mark SS. Appearance is ca. 1800." Hope this helps. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 90066 ---- From: Jaime Metcher Esther (et al.), > >Why do we want a low-angle and regular angle? I have a low-angle, and I've >been happy with it. The only thing I can think of is that it cuts very very >slowly. So maybe a regular angle is a little more aggressive? > >-Shannon > >-- ---- Start of Message 90067 ---- From: "C. McArdle" > Certainly I've never found that my 60 1/2 cuts end grain any better than anything else does. So why do we want a low >angle plane at all? Or is this one of those great ideas in practice that'll never work in theory? I guess we need some terms of reference for this discussion Jamie, when you say the 60 1/2 doesn't cut end grain any better than anything else I wonder how well your planes do cut end grain. My benchmark is my Record #073, it cuts long, thin, curled shavings on rock maple end grain, ( great for the ego I might add ) , my 60 1/2 will cut a curl on the same wood but does not have the consistency of the 073, needs more pressure holding it down and likes to be held at a slight skew to the work.. My Stanley 9 1/2 seems to want to dig in and jump, it needs to be held at a greater skewed angle and is not happy on the rock maple end grain at all. Maybe I haven't sharpened it as carefully? I realize, continents apart, we are using different woods but IMHO the low angle does make a real difference in practice. So the question is do you get nice curls off your end grain ironwood with the other planes you are using? best, Marvin Paisner Kootenay Lake, BC Canada ---- Start of Message 90069 ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 2001-02-19 02:16:00 Subject: Trip to Amish Land Esteemed Galoots, A couple of weeks ago, I made a foray into SE Pennsylvania, into Amish territory, looking for tools. I wrote up sort of a trip report with pictures (had to try out my new Mavica digicam). The web page is at: http://members.aol.com/hammer9/galoot2/amish_land2.html All I bought was a blind-man's rule and a rasp. Guess I'm getting picky in my old age. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a... Will Work For Tools The Galoot's Progress Old Tools site is at: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ---- Start of Message 90070 ---- From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Duke_of_URLs=A9?= http://www.cmcardle.net/lion >Including Darrell LaRue's cool patent database searches, yielding the Dosch >patent image. >http://www.cmcardle.net/lion/dosch If you can stand to get past all the real big arn you'll find a miter trimmer on the Oliver Used M*ch*n*r* site. http://www.oliverusedmachinery.com/welcome.html There's also a spanky little patternmaker's vise there. Click on Reference Photos and slide down towards the bottom of the page and promise you won't lolly gag over the *l*ctr*c*l stuff. Keith Bohn http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oldwwmachines ---- Start of Message 90071 ---- From: "Todd and Betty Hughes" Gary wrote of opening his box from an *bay seller in anticipation of a > plane and getting ... MIB Christmas tree lights! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- As a person that sells allot on the ebay I have to admit this is one of my greatest fears, so far only happened once to me. Now I know Gary didn't do this but you would be surprised at the number of people that send you payment for a tool they won on ebay and will not include with it what it is for even though I plainly ask them to send what the payment what it is for and the items ebay number! Or maybe they just say "Chisel",[ I sell dozens a month] which was the case with the time I sent the wrong chisel to a person,a 1 in. Stanley 720 instead of a 1 in Stanley 750 that the fellow hadn't paid for in over month.Sometimes they will send payment and not only not tell me what it is for but who they are and where to send the item,[which I don't know what it is anyway]. Once had a fellow in England send me a large amount of cash for a plane and never included any return address or anything on the envelope.Have also had a good many people pay me twice and one paid me for something someone else sold him!Since probably 40% of people never contact you after an auction they win you can't match up names that way sometimes...Just a reminder that it isn't always the Ebay seller that goofs up!......Todd ---- Start of Message 90072 ---- From: paul womack Think it was Womack pointed out that because of That's *Mr* Womack to you. (I'm about to do my maths schtick folks, "gut feeling" galoots should change to another channel now) There is an interesting relationship between the bedding angle and depth adjustment on planes. I'll do the maths in a moment, but one can often clarify things by looking at extreme cases. 1) A toothing plane with a vertical blade. It is obvious that any movement of the blade produces an IDENTICAL change in depth of cut. 1) A (hypothetical) zero angle mitre plane. It is obvious that any motion along the (zero thickness!) bed doesn't alter the depth of cut, it just brings the blade closer to the wear. On to the maths. Here's a (bad) drawing of a plane blade protruding from the bottom (====) of a plane. .-~ .- ...=============.-~================... .-~ | .-~ | .-~__________| What we want to know is how much the depth of cut alters for a given movement ("adjustment") of the blade along the bed. Hmm. We have a nice little right angled triangle there (trig alert!) And we are interested in: * angle * hypoteneuse * the side opposite the angle A dimly remembered mnemonic (Sir Oliver's Horse) reminds me that I need the Sine formula: Sin(angle) = opposite/hypoteneuse or, in our case: Sin(bedding) = depth/adjustment So depth = sin(bedding) * adjustment So a conventional 45 degree bed gives a .707 "gearing" of the adjustment. A steeper (anti-tearout) 60 degree bed gives a .87 gearing, but: A 20 degree bed gives .34, and the 12.5 degree bed on the #60 1/2 (much beloved low angle block plane, Jeff) gives .22 Comparing .22 with .707, we find that (for a given adjustment) the depth of cut on a #60 1/2 moves .707/.22 = 3.2 times less change in depth of cut. With reference to Jim Kinghsott, and his much vaunted 40 TPI micrometer threaded adjuster on his Norris pattern planes, the humble little Stanley could achieve the same finesse of depth adjustment with a 12 TPI thread! (40 * sin(12.5) / sin(47.5)) BugBear ---- Start of Message 90073 ---- From: "Ralph Brendler" Unfortunately, the flu bug has bitten Tod Herrli, so Ralph Brendler > and myself were unable to spend this weekend making sash planes with > him. My guess is that Ralph spent his morning watching Bugs Bunny > in his underwear (how's that for a gruesome visual?), but I was geared > up to make a plane. TWEEEET! Personal foul, unnecessary roughness-- 15 yards! (yellow card, Jeff) I didn't make a plane this weekend, but I *did* make not one, but TWO wooden spokeshaves. Here's the proof: www.mcs.net/~brendler/oldtools/projects/projects.htm So there. Nyeah... ;-) ralph ---- Start of Message 90074 ---- From: "Ralph Brendler" The snow white virus was from ipa.net which is the isp both Bill Clark and I > use. IPA covers Arkansas, Missouri and Oklahoma. I am fairly certain that this virus did NOT come through the OldTools list. We have been hit with email viruses in the past, and when we do get hit we are flooded with notifications from mailserver virus checking software. The last one that went through probably generated about 200 error notifications to the listowners. Unfortunately, these things can propagate very quickly without the help of listservers. My guess is that it started out with Bill, but spread through galoot's address books. Snow White is a particularly aggressive worm, so even if only a tiny fraction of recipients actually opens it, it will grow. Just remember-- never open executable attachments, regardless of who they came from. You should also get yourself a good virus scanner (they are quite cheap), and keep it up to date. The OldTools List Moms Ralph and Esther ---- Start of Message 90075 ---- From: Mark Keenum Have a saw vise No. 77 made by this outfit. Pat > dates aug 1, 1912 and oct > 28 (?) 1913. dikeman Mfg Co., Norwalk Conn. > > Yahoo turned up only two other mentions of tools by > this company. One was > a scraper and the other a paint scraper. > > Anyone have any info on this company, or familiar > with the vise? +++++++++ Yes, I have a couple of interesting chain drills made by Dikeman Mfg. co., and I've been trying to learn more about the company also. I've never seen a catalog of just their stuff, but I do have a catalog reprint that shows some of their chain drills--it's the M-WTCA reprint of the ca1910 Zenith Tools and Cutlery, Marshall-Wells Hardware company. That's the only place that I have (so far) found any mention of the Dikeman Compant products in a catalog. I have seen a scraper on *ebay, and one of the other list memebers has a Dikeman scraper, I think, but I haven't found out much else about them. Let me know if you learn any more. ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---- Start of Message 90079 ---- From: Sanford Moss Have a saw vise No. 77 made by this outfit. Pat dates aug 1, 1912 and oct >28 (?) 1913. dikeman Mfg Co., Norwalk Conn. >Yahoo turned up only two other mentions of tools by this company. One was >a scraper and the other a paint scraper. >Anyone have any info on this company, or familiar with the vise? >chris Chris & All, The Dikeman Mfg. Co., Norwalk, Conn. was founded in 1906 in Norwalk by two bothers, Charles and Joseph, after both had worked in Torrington, Conn at a bicycle factory. Dikeman Mfg made mechanics tools and metal goods. They produced a butt gage that caused the company history to be summarized in Milton Bacheller's new book, "American Marking Gages"-the source of this information. Charles, his wife, and Joseph's wife died fairly early in the company history, leaving Joseph responsible for the corporate health. Unfortunately the Four Horsemen of the New Britain Apocalypse (named "Stanley," "Rule," "&", and "Level") never descended on Norwalk to buy Dikeman out, so the company suffered in the crash of 1929. Dikeman's sons left the company to seek fortunes elsewhere. Joseph mortgaged his house to keep the business going-but it finally failed completely in 1939. By the way, "American Marking Gages" is a book particularly rich in the history of companies that made gages, and the men that invented them. Milt Bacheller goes into sometimes exhaustive detail on the backgrounds of these guys. Since many gage manufacturers produced other tools as well (especially wooden planes), it is a valuable book for the history-minded tool buff. Sandy **************************************** smoss@u... Home Page - http://134.88.12.107/wworking.htm Tools for Sale list - http://134.88.16.130/tfs.htm **************************************** ---- Start of Message 90080 ---- From: Jim Erdman I'm interested in buying a Stanley #49 or > maybe a #48 T&G plane. If there is another > kind of handtool useful for making grooves, > I'd also be interested in that information. I'm > still new to this hobby, so pardon my > ignorance.... Hello, I'd like to point out that many of the #148 (and perhaps the 146 and 147s also) have broken lever caps, or whatever you call the equivelant part on these tools that holds down the blade. We (actually my youngest son did it) broke the tip on the lever cap for the grooving blade on my 148 by trying to tighten it just a little more. I made a replacement part out of a piece of mild steel so that we could continue using the plane. He seems to like using the 48 and 49 better, though, and says they are a little more comfortable to use. He has been doing a lot of tongue and grooving of maple and has been using the planes instead of an *l*ctr*c router or molding head on the t*bl* saw. Also, the Sargent equivalent of the 148, the neat "upside down" t&g plane, is even more uncomfortable and awkward than the Stanley 148. They aren't worth the big bucks if you want a user (mine was $5 at a garage sale, but it was a little rusty and not ready to use.) ===== Jim Erdman (in Menomonie, WI) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---- Start of Message 90081 ---- From: "Earthmother" > Yes, I think the sweet smell is characteristic of true Brazilian rosewood > (dalbergia whatever). I really like the smell, too. Despite the pleasant > smell, many people seem to have allergic reactions (respiratory or skin > problems) to rosewood dust. There are also lots of other things that get > mistakenly called rosewood (Bocote, Cocobola, etc.) Cocobolo/cocobola is a true rosewood (genus Dalbergia). -- Andy Barss ---- Start of Message 90083 ---- From: "richard.wilson" After all the discussion on fuming and the rest, does anyone have any recipes > for bleaching mahogany? You might try oxalic acid. It comes in crystal form. I try to make a supersaturated solution by dissolving it in warm/hot water and keep adding more while keeping the water warm. When it doesn't dissolve any more, I'd guess that the solution is saturated. Use it warm. More likely, it will take multiple applications. Be cautious with the crystals tho'. They are NOT beneficial to your lungs. And don't get it on your skin either. For stronger bleaches, I know they sell 2-part solutions, but I've not real familiar with them, having used some a long while ago and have forgotten how they're applied. Cheers, Jack in Endwell, NY Oh, and use a small brush or "Q"-tip to apply the oxalic acid. Let it dry, then reapply. ---- Start of Message 90085 ---- From: Anthony Seo Does anybody have experience with these new, sort of traditional, sort of >not, hammers? Like 'em, don't like 'em? Specifically, any experience >with the titanium flavor, which is about twice as expensive? > from all the carpenters I have heard from they do work better and save your wrists. If I drove nails I would use one. Titanium is a great metal. but that hammer is cheep compared to my new glasses frames (G) Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes +Galoot Made Products- Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions. ---- Start of Message 90088 ---- From: James Foster Gentle Galoots -- My three-year-old wants to buy me a hammer for my > birthday (that's my girl!), so I figured she should buy me one I really > want, with a little help from me and SWMBO. I've been wondering about > these hatchet-handled Hart framers, and more specifically, about the new > titanium models at about half the weight (12 oz instead of 20). Hart > framers seem to have morphed into "Death Stick" brand recently, but still > have a real hickory handle (now painted black!). The claim is that these > lighter hammers can be swung faster, driving nails just as fast or faster, > with less collateral damage to the hammer-ers joints. The idea of > swinging a lighter hammer is very appealing to my no-longer-so-spiffy > elbow and wrist joints. I tend to prefer a lighter hammer in any case, > but I could use something beefier for the heavy tasks. > > Does anybody have experience with these new, sort of traditional, sort of > not, hammers? Like 'em, don't like 'em? Specifically, any experience > with the titanium flavor, which is about twice as expensive? > > ---- Start of Message 90089 ---- From: Minch >>> In laying out the pins very little care is required. It is a common practice to mark them off at random. Care must be taken to leave the outside pins nearly twice as large as the inside ones. The dove-tails are then marked from the pins; they thus become exact counterparts of each other. The piece upon which the pins are made is laid upon the work- bench, and that upon which the dove-tails are to be made is held vertically upon it in the exact position that the two pieces are to occupy. A fine point or pen- cil is then used to mark the outline of each pin. This being done, a fine saw may be used for both pin and and dove-tail, taking care that it follows the outlines and does not cut below the gauge mark that limits the interior of the work. By not cutting into the outline marks, both pins and dove-tails will be a trifle too large, and in driving them together they will com- press each other a little, and produce a close and accu- rate joint. After cutting with a saw to the depth required for the pins and dove-tails, a sharp chisel is used to remove the wood that remains between the portions that are to be retained. A ready method of doing this is to lay the several pieces one upon another, similar to a flight of stairs, and cut half way through them successively, and then turn them over, arrange them as before, and cut the other side, which operation removes the pieces. This method enables a mechanic to work with celerity, and also permits him to see what he is doing. The chisel should be held so that the cut will extend inward at the base of the pins and dove-tails, meeting at the centre of the board. This will insure a tight-fitting joint when the work is put together. <<<< Interestingly, the author indicates that dovetails were laid out ad-hoc and not fastidiously measured to the nearest 64th of an inch. I've looked closely at some 'fine' pieces of furniture that had hand cut dovetails, and they were indeed randomly laid out. Of course I've also seen some perfectly precise handcut DTs as well, and my sample size is, um, kind of restricted. Darrell who can't resist pointing out that the article also says "pins first" (a duckin' and a runnin' ...) -- Darrell LaRue Oakville ON (that's in Canada, eh) FOYBIPO, Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, & Occasional Tool User ---- Start of Message 90091 ---- From: Darrell & Kathy >>>> Hints on Joining. In _Andrews' Guide to Church Furnishing_ are some hints for the fine carpentry of church interiors, which may apply just as well to other branches of tasteful join- ing: The main stay of constructive wood-work is the mortise and tenon. >>>snip>>> This is maintained in an ordinary panelled door, pro- vided no moldings are inserted. Another principle is that miter-joints should be avoid- ed, whether for molded work or not, for the reason that shrinkage causes all miters to open. >>>snip>>> Inserted moldings should be avoided as far as possible; and all moldings for panel-work should be worked on the stiles and rails. It is a general principle, observed in the best mediaeval joinery, that all moldings on rails which are horizontal should butt against the stiles; and that stiles should be either plain or should have moldings stopped before reaching the joints with the rails. In practice, all rail moldings may be worked the whole length of the stuff used; and if muntins (which are the middle stiles) are used, the moldings may be cut away to the square wood before the mortise is cut which is to receive the tenon of the muntin. Thus the moldings will butt against the square sides of the muntin. >>>>> Whoa. Really? Roy Underhill always shows coped mouldings on rail & stile joinery. I've never seen the kind of joints described here. Of course there is very little opportunity to see Mediaeval joinery, furniture or otherwise, here in Canada. Anyone out there have a copy of Andrews' Guide to Church Furnishing? Anyone got any Mediaeval joinery laying about so as to verify this? Darrell thinking that it would be *easier* to do it like this, but it might not *look* as nice -- Darrell LaRue Oakville ON FOYBIPO, Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, & Occasional Tool User ---- Start of Message 90092 ---- From: Minch Interestingly, the author indicates that dovetails were laid out > ad-hoc and not fastidiously measured to the nearest 64th of an > inch. I've looked closely at some 'fine' pieces of furniture > that had hand cut dovetails, and they were indeed randomly laid > out. Of course I've also seen some perfectly precise handcut > DTs as well, and my sample size is, um, kind of restricted. Roy shows how to make a dovetail joint in about 4 minutes on one of his hows. His are laid out pretty much randomly as to width, but I think he marked the tails first if I am not mistaken. It would have nothing to do with the strength of the joint. I made a couple of drawers with his method a few years back - quick layout and quick cut. The pieces fit remarkably well for the small amount of time I spent. The drawers went in a jelly cupboard I started in 1971 and probably made the drawers for in 1993 or 4. Took me quite a bit longer than 4 minutes a joint, but if I remember, it was less than 2 hours for the 8 joints. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 90093 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Robert Nelson) Date: 2001-02-19 19:44:00 Subject: Re: Doctor Barton Hi Minch & All, Ed Minch asked for info about D.R. Barton. Per the trusty DAT, Barton himself worked as D.R. Barton & Co. 1849-1874 after being in a series of parterships starting in 1832. I think if Minch will recheck the 1837 date he cited he'll find it's 1832. A partner in the "& Co.", William Mack, took over the business; although renaming it Mack & Co., they continued to mark tools with the Barton name until 1923. In the meantime, Barton and his sons formed a new D.R. Barton Tool Co. which worked until 1880 when Mack also bought it out. All three companies used a marking of D.R. Barton/1832. Besides wooden planes, they made a wide range of axes, chisels draw knives, hammers, picks, tinsmith tools, etc. Cooper's tools were a specialty. An English toolmaker, Ash, was so impressed with Barton's tools that he copied them and sold them as "Rochester Pattern" tools. Barton marked tools (by whichever maker) are quite common and it's surprising Ed hasn't seen any before. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 90094 ---- From: "Bill - Craftsman Studio" > GG > > I have never seen a D R Barton tool in the wild, and hear you all speaking > of chisels with his name on them. > > Today I purchased a D R Barton, Rochester NY, plane blade. It is 2" wide, > as thick as a later Stanley, has angled shoulders at the top edge, not quite > as steep as Stanley, Sargent, Winchester, Fulton, Union, etc. It has the > cap iron hole at the top of the slot. The oval trademark has "1837" in the > middle. > > When was the good doctor working?? did he make arn planes or woodies?? Any > interesting info?? > > Ed Minch > ---- Start of Message 90097 ---- From: "Todd and Betty Hughes" > Nearly every continent has its own wood which is locally called "ironwood". The N.A. one is also genus Dalbergia, AFAIK. ---- Start of Message 90100 ---- From: dsoldtools@j... Date: 2001-02-19 04:20:00 Subject: Re: Rust Prevention on Old tools Cars? I saw it in aluminum bottles. Were you buying concentrated Nitric acid? (Esseentially anhydrous). Even a little bit of water and the aluminum would be gone in, well, a flash. Concentrated Nitric acid puts a hard saphire coating on the aluminum. On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 07:36:56 EST TURFF49@a... writes: > Those "cars" could have been glass lined. In my day job > "Environmental > Engineer" I order Nitric acid all the time to use as a preservative > for > certain groundwater samples and it is shipped in glass. When I use > to do > Emergency Response work some rail cars were "glassed lined" so they > could > haul in bulk. > > Brian McInturff > Quality Restoration Services > Myrtle Beach, SC 29577 > "Quality At Work " Doug Caprette Greenbelt, MD USA "What's half an inch between friends? Mind you, it can be quite a bit between lovers!" -- Ed Winslow ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---- Start of Message 90101 ---- From: Don McConnell I always wondered if D.R Barton and LI& J White who were also tool makers >in Rochester N.Y. had any relationship together as thier marks look kind of >simular but I have never heard of any partinship between the two....Todd. While there is a superficial similarity between the D.R. Barton and L.&I.J. White trademarks, I know of no direct connection between the two firms. David R. Barton learned the nail making trade in Rochester, briefly worked in that trade in Ramapo, New York, then returned to Rochester to set up in edge tool manufacture, beginning in 1832. Leonard & Ichabod Jewett White first made edge tools in Monroe, Michigan, beginning in 1837, then moved to Buffalo, New York. Their first listing in the Buffalo business directories being in 1844. Both being rather large manufacturers, they were, undoubtedly, aware of each others operations and markets. The only, inconsequential, connection I've found is that a planemaker, by the name of Robert Bingham, who was listed as an employee of D.R. Barton in the 1849 Rochester Directory , was then listed as a planemaker for L.&I.J. White in the 1854 Buffalo Directory. There are several pages of information on both operations in Ken and Jane Roberts' _Planemakers and Other Edge Tool Enterprises in New York State in the Nineteenth Century_, c. 1971. Don't worry, I won't attempt to summarize them. :-) Just thought I'd mention it in case anyone wants to find additional information. Of interest, though, is the listing of the D.R. Barton employees as put together by the Roberts from the 1849 Rochester Directory. At that time, there were 83 to 85 employees (it seems to have reached it's peak employment in 1870 with 193 hands), producing approximately $80,000 worth of goods. Of the employees, there were 17 Toolmakers, 12 Planemakers, 7 Auger Makers, 14 Blacksmiths, 5 Strikers, and 6 Tool Grinders. During a good part of the 19th century, they were the largest edge tool manufacturer in New York. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 90102 ---- From: "C. McArdle" titanium models at about half the weight (12 oz instead of 20). Hart >framers seem to have morphed into "Death Stick" brand recently, but still >have a real hickory handle (now painted black!). The claim is that these >lighter hammers can be swung faster, driving nails just as fast or faster, >with less collateral damage to the hammer-ers joints. ---- Start of Message 90103 ---- From: jc60714@n... Date: 2001-02-19 23:59:00 Subject: Re: New hammers: Titanium Hart framers, etc. Hello- At 04:39 PM 2/19/01 -0500, you wrote: > I've been wondering about >these hatchet-handled Hart framers, and more specifically, about the new >titanium models at about half the weight (12 oz instead of 20). Hart >framers seem to have morphed into "Death Stick" brand recently, but still >have a real hickory handle (now painted black!). My kid brother swears by his "Death Stick", and gave me several of his framing hammers. I tried one one of the "Death Sticks" for a weekend; I think once I got the hang of it I might like it. I'm not sure if it is the hammer head that makes the difference or if its the handle. I had much less arm pain after 2 twelve hour days. For my own use here around the Casa de Chaos, I'll probably stick with my 28 ounce waffle-faced framing hammer. Jim Colburn ---- Start of Message 90104 ---- From: "Ken and Mary Ann Vaughan" I do have a question about spring pole/bungee cord >turning. Anybody still here? When the treadle is >released and the stock is spinning in the opposite >direction, what do you do with your turning tool? Do >you let it drag on the turning or do you pull it off >the turning. The timing is so good because next weekend I start in as the 'resident' woodmangler at a community woodland project - and one aim is to rebuild a pole lathe. Marks observations couldn't be better timed. But in answer to the question, without moving the hands and relative positions to the toolrest, just ease up the pressure by lowering the right hand (if you're right handed), then easing it back into the cut. If you are 'losing your place' by lifting the tool away then you need to re-examine how you are standing and the way you are holding the tool. Typically, the left hand will be around the tool, the forefinger below the tool and sliding along the toolrest, with the thumb above and controlling the cut and the angle. Your right handwill be further back along the handle, perhaps with your forearm above and in contact with the tool, and the end of the handle may be in contact with your right hip. What else - oh yes - that leaves your left leg free to make the wood spinning thing go round. By a small and subtle move of the left hand, and/or downward move of the right, the tool ceases to cut. reverse the subtlety with more care to start the next. And to think someone had to invent that 'twister' game. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman, and apologising if this is too elementary. ---- Start of Message 90106 ---- From: "Nuno Souto" The idea of > swinging a lighter hammer is very appealing to my no-longer-so-spiffy > elbow and wrist joints. I tend to prefer a lighter hammer in any case, > but I could use something beefier for the heavy tasks. > > Does anybody have experience with these new, sort of traditional, sort of > not, hammers? Like 'em, don't like 'em? Specifically, any experience > with the titanium flavor, which is about twice as expensive? "Don't fall for it" is what immediately comes to mind. This is marketing strategy, not ergonomics, in action. The lighter the hammer the harder and more frequently you're going to have to swing it causing more wear on joints than less. A big hammer will drive a nail quicker. Imaging splitting wood with a little lightweight titanium splitting maul. Pure hell. If I need to drive a nail I grab my big long Estwing and watch it go down in one or two blows. Having to borrow someone else's little fiberglass handle job is like dragging an anchor...you work and you work and nothing seems to get done. Cheers Ryan ---- Start of Message 90111 ---- From: "Thom Trail" "Don't fall for it" is what immediately comes to mind. This is marketing >strategy, not ergonomics, in action. The lighter the hammer the harder and >more frequently you're going to have to swing it causing more wear on joints >than less. A big hammer will drive a nail quicker. Imaging splitting wood >with a little lightweight titanium splitting maul. I think this is one of those till you try it you will never know. I have seen nothing but praise for them. the only negative I have seen are price and people that have not used them. Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes +Galoot Made Products- Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions. ---- Start of Message 90113 ---- From: Don McConnell ... the Cornell >"Making Of America" website as I munched my sandwich today, I ran across >a treatise on dovetails. > >http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABS1821-0001-9 Thanks to Darrell for pointing out this interesting article. It contains much good information, including enough practical hints and tips that, at first blush, it appears to have been written by someone with a fair amount of practical experience. However, it contains enough incorrect and confusing information that it becomes clear that while the author had obviously gleaned information from those with practical experience, he wasn't entirely familiar with the work itself. As such, it becomes a very good example of the pitfalls of much "technical" writing of that period. Let's take a look at a couple of examples. The author puts forward Figure 2, as representing the "common dovetail joint" in the context of a discussion of grain orientation and wood movement. A casual glance at the illustration reveals it to show the pins as *much* wider than the tails. Anything but typical or common. Apparently the illustrator got things confused, here; though other drawings are more representative. Next, let's take a look at part of the text which Darrell typed in. > ...The >dove-tails are then marked from the pins; they thus >become exact counterparts of each other. The piece >upon which the pins are made is laid upon the work- >bench, and that upon which the dove-tails are to be >made is held vertically upon it in the exact position >that the two pieces are to occupy. A fine point or pen- >cil is then used to mark the outline of each pin. This >being done, a fine saw may be used for both pin and >and dove-tail ... . Without rising to the bait concerning the pins or tails first advocacy, it seems to me that the author has reversed the positions of the pin and dove-tail pieces in his description of marking from the pins. Unless I'm missing something, I don't see how one could mark out the tails in this manner. Another small point. While he uses the term "the piece upon which the pins are made," he then goes on to mention using a saw "for both the pin and dove-tail" ... *after* marking out of the tails from the pins. Confusing, at best. The serious difficulties arise, however, when we come to the discussion of dovetails used at drawer fronts. While the author uses appropriate "lap dovetail" terminology for the joinery used, and the text contains some accurate and useful information, the illustration and the balance of the text are confusing and/or troublesome. There are two immediate problems with the illustration. First, it shows a double-lap (or, if you prefer, fully lapped) dovetail. In other words, neither the tails nor the pins would show on their respective surfaces when the joint is assembled. This, in no way, is representative of standard trade practice for joinery at drawer fronts. Though the text does, correctly, mention that the material for drawer sides is usually thinner than for the fronts and the tails are "cut through." Second, once again, the pins are shown as much wider than the tails. Further, in one sentence, the author, correctly, states that the pins are on the drawer front. However, two sentences later, he says: "It is, however, immaterial in which piece the pins and dove-tails are made." I think that the latter sentence is intended as a comment concerning double-lap joinery in general; but in interspersing it with the more specific discussion of drawer front joinery, he has created potential for real misunderstanding. In short, the overall effect between the text and the illustrations is one pretty much guaranteed to generate serious confusion. I pity anyone attempting to learn about drawer joinery from this. One other small point on drawer work. The author also states that if the drawer front was to be veneered the pins would be "cut through" - the idea being that the veneer would cover the joinery at the front. While this was sometimes done, I believe most cabinetmakers would have considered it to be an inferior form of work. "Scamping" if you will. I also believe the mitre dove-tail illustration to be atypical, and, once again, shows the pins as much wider than the tails. I realize that I've focused on the negatives regarding this article. (Though I've attempted to be fair in my characterization of it.) I did so, however, out of concern lest we fall into the trap of believing that something written 130 years ago is authoritative simply due to its vintage. The danger of this is re-enforced, in this case, by the fact that the author appears to have had the opportunity to talk trades-people with practical experience. Hoping I'm not sounding too much like a curmudgeon. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 90114 ---- From: paul womack Any idea of the saw model number or Atkins' > name for this tooth pattern: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=558046450 > > I always find it fascinating when they try to "improve" the 2 basic teeth > geometry of crosscut and rip handsaws. Any other examples out > there, other than the Disston D17 Double Duty? ---- Start of Message 90117 ---- From: "YARROW, GARY" >have lots of moving air around you. It is a very strong > oxidizer, thus it > >loves organic compounds like lignin, tannic acid, skin, > eyes, lung tissue, > >etc. > > Gary, I gotta pick nits with you here. Are you sure ammonia > is a strong > _oxidizer_?! > It's more like a reducing agent, being NH3, lots of hydrogen > and a N atom > looking to be set free- ---- Start of Message 90118 ---- From: jimbono@w... (Jim Thompson) Date: 2001-02-20 09:21:00 Subject: Old upholstery This may be off topic, but does anyone know of a suppler of old time upholstery supplies such as horse hair and moss? I am using my old tools to resurrect some antique furniture, but upholsterers in California do not seem to be able to come up with the original materials which I took out of the antiques. (Which was pretty ratty.) Is this stuff still available? Jim Thompson ---- Start of Message 90119 ---- From: Keith Mealy OK, guys, I feel sorta dense here. means your side will be slightly higher than the top. > > I know all old furniture wasn't dovetailed together. WHAT AM I MISSING? > Like I said, I'm feeling sorta dense. This question came to mind last night > and I looked at a few books at home (Tage Frid etc) without answers. > How about table buttons? Just treat the top of the piece like a table top. Unless it has big drawers that stress the case (like a large dresser) as they go in and out, then this should be all you need. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 90122 ---- From: "Shannon Salb" I know all old furniture wasn't dovetailed together. WHAT AM I MISSING? > Like I said, I'm feeling sorta dense. This question came to mind last night > and I looked at a few books at home (Tage Frid etc) without answers. I'm in the process of building a case for a wall cabinet and was confronted by this same issue. Since I'm basically just copying the magazine cabinet in the 25th anniversary issue of Fine Woodworking (except using hand tools), I made the joints in the same way. I'm pretty much finished with the joinery for the four sides (top, bottom, side pieces). The top is joined to the sides using through dovetails, which means the top piece is cut to the width of the cabinet. This'll allow me to either leave the dovetails showing, or attach some sort of molding later (what?! *hide* my dovetails?!). The bottom is joined to the sides using wedged, through mortise and tenon joints. The mortises are cut so that the bottom opening is larger than the top opening, a gap that will be filled by hammering wedges into the bottom of the tenons. This has the effect of making the tenons into "tails" and the mortises into the "pins". Of course, the bottom of the cabinet needs to be wider than the case, although not by much. If you're planning on doing this, don't cut the bottom piece to length until *after* you've chopped the mortises -- the extra wood will keep you from breaking out the end grain while chopping. If you didn't want through mortises, you could acheive the same effect using a "fox mortise and tenon joint", which is a blind mortise, cut with sides at an angle, and a tenon with slots for wedges. You have to make sure the wedges are exactly the right size, and as you insert the tenon / wedge assembly into the mortise, the wedges expand to fill the mortise. I've never tried this, but Hayward has some good pics in "Woodwork Joints". In my cabinet, I'll have a middle shelf, that's joined to the sides using a sliding dovetail joint. If you're curious, I've got some pictures of me building it (in progress. . .) at: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/woodworking/mag_cab.phtml Coincidentally, the episode of the Woodwright's Shop that was on my PBS station last week showed Roy making basically the same thing I'm making, out of the same wood, but he was joining the top and bottom to the sides using simple dados. He mentioned using nails / glue / screws to hold the pieces together. A quick perusal through any of the Krenov books shows a variety of cabinets built using these two methods (through dovetails, mortise and tenon joinery). I don't recall seeing any of his stuff with frame and panel construction, but I could be wrong. He seems like more of a solid wood kind of guy. Chris -- Christopher S. Swingley 930 Koyukuk Drive System / Network Manager University of Alaska Fairbanks IARC -- Frontier Program Fairbanks, AK 99775 phone: 907-474-2689 fax: 907-474-2643 email: cswingle@i... GNUPG and PGP2 keys at my web site web: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle ---- Start of Message 90124 ---- From: "Ryan McNabb" http://www.infopeople.org/bpl/tool/phys1.html > > Executive summary: > The kinetic energy of the hammer is 1/2 mv^2 or half > times the mass of the hammer, a 24 ounce framing > hammer, times its velocity squared. So if you double > the mass of the hammer, you will double the force of > each blow. But if you double the velocity of the > hammer then the kinetic energy, or the power it can > deliver to the nail, will be four times as much. Uh huh. Well, even though you are absolutely correct, this is one of those things that ought to be so, but often isn't. I often feel there is a mystical but nonetheless genuine disconnect from what can be proven on paper and what works in actual fact. I have always had an interest in the "velocity versus mass" thing as an extension of my interest in firearms. To wit: There are those that say that a small bullet travelling at high velocity will kill a dangerous animal just as quickly as a heavy bullet travelling slowly, producing (on paper) much less energy. "Look at the figures!" they will say. And then they take their high velocity spitfire rifle hunting in Africa, where it promptly doesn't work when the chips are down. And the professional hunter standing behind them, in case everything goes wrong...what does he carry to stop a huge, dangerous animal in a split second? A big old powerful double rifle that throws a huge bullet very slowly. And will consistently do the job when nothing else will. That's way off the subject of framing hammers, but illustrates my point. I suppose it's all a matter of style and where your heart lies. Some prefer the tried and true, some the new and unconventional. Neither is automatically wrong...they just take turns being wrong in various situations. Cheers Ryan -unrepentant heavy hammer/big axe/old tool type o' guy... ---- Start of Message 90125 ---- From: "Ralph Brendler" If I don't t & g, what > would be the alternatives? I'm thinking lap-jointing as an alternative, but > then I'm planing instead of t & g-ing. I don't know if that really saves > any time or effort. Anyone have any tips or hints or methods? I've got a tiny T&G set (sorry, not for sale), but in general I find that T&G is a problem with stock <1/2" thick. The tongue is so narrow that it tends to break off as you cut the joint, particularly with a splintery wood like cedar... When working with this thin of material (which I do quite often for case backs and the like), I prefer a half lap. If it's a visible piece I will also stick a 1/8" bead on the face-- this not only looks cool, it really helps hide the gaps. ralph ---- Start of Message 90126 ---- From: "John B.Chesnut" > In making a case (say a buffet or set of drawers or > what-have-you), what are > the common methods for joining the sides to the top and > bottom? ...snip... > I looked at a few books at home (Tage Frid etc) without answers. ---- Start of Message 90128 ---- From: Johnny Johnson On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:02:59 -0800, you wrote: > > >"Don't fall for it" is what immediately comes to mind. This is marketing > >strategy, not ergonomics, in action. The lighter the hammer the harder and > >more frequently you're going to have to swing it causing more wear on joints > >than less. A big hammer will drive a nail quicker. Imaging splitting wood > >with a little lightweight titanium splitting maul. > I think this is one of those till you try it you will never know. I have seen > nothing but praise for them. the only negative I have seen are price and people > that have not used them. I have used them...I think they're too light. I also think if I paid that much for a hammer I'd tell people I liked it, too. Not that some people don't genuinely love these hammers...I'm just saying we also tend to convince ourselves of things, sometimes. (I know I do.) I never saw anyone who drove a Jaguar or Land Rover that didn't "love" it, no matter how much time it spends in the shop. Cheers Ryan ---- Start of Message 90131 ---- From: "Bretton Wade" seventeen students using hand tools only. All but one of the shaves were > made of apple. I've hit every lumber shop in the area, and called several dealers listed in FWW, but nobody seems to have or be able to get apple. Well, I take that back, one dealer said he could order some, but I'd have to take the lot sight unseen, as he couldn't sell it otherwise, and he was talking about $5000 worth of lumber. Where do you get apple wood? Thanks, Bretton ---- Start of Message 90132 ---- From: "Gil Chesbro" 1.) You "NEED" this hammer. (like you need so many other things, like I > needed a 1 1/16 combination wrench) i actually did NEED one of these - the wrench for the blade on my t*bles*w got lost and I had to go flea hopping. OT content - found a Billings open end wrench with a wrench on one end only. Appears to be old, and is very husky. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 90135 ---- From: "John L. Odom" Where do you get apple wood? > Orchards Ron > Thanks, > Bretton > > -- ---- Start of Message 90139 ---- From: Darrell & Kathy Thanks to Darrell for pointing out this interesting article. > It contains much good information, [snip] BUT [snip] > good example of the pitfalls of much "technical" writing of that period. Yes, it seems like a lot of these guys were 'gentlemen authors' who had some exposure to the crafts and some book-learning but seemed to miss the finer points. Not unlike myself and, I suspect, a lot of us sitting here on this virtual Porch. I was particularly interested in the fact that dovetails were not meticulously laid out by the master craftsman. The author probably watched the procedure to get this fact. But he probably didn't watch the apprentice cutting several hundred of them until he could do it in his sleep. > Hoping I'm not sounding too much like a curmudgeon. Not at all, Don. And I'll keep digging more of these gems out of the ether whenever I have time. Darrell -- Darrell LaRue Oakville ON FOYBIPO, Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User ---- Start of Message 90140 ---- From: Joe Duclos Louis wrote...." > > Any idea of the saw model number or Atkins' > name for this tooth pattern...... . Any other examples out > there, other than the Disston D17 Double Duty? > > +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ Atkins apparently made a number of this type saw, some numbers for these were the 82[ triple duty, Rip, Cross cut, Miter] or 83,84, 86 which was rip, cross cut combos.After 1934 they made a TR11 combo saw.All this and more information is in the book "Handsaw makers of North America which I suggest anyone interested in saws get post hast. I have a good fortune of having a close to mint Montague- Woodrough saw co. saw with this same type of teeth and I think they had a patent on it and only made them for a short time till bought out by Disston in 1893.This is a knock down gorgeous saw with a rosewood handle and a beautiful etch that will take your breath away.I got this and a mint never cut wood older Disston D23 off a fellow that was selling them for the unheard of price,[at least around here in the land of the $2 and $3 saws ] of $10 ea..Of course I pointed out being an "Off Brand" the Montague had to be worth less then the Disston and got the pair for $15.........Todd ---- Start of Message 90143 ---- From: dsoldtools@j... Date: 2001-02-20 03:19:00 Subject: Re: New hammers: Titanium Hart framers, etc. That fancy math proves lots of things, not necessarily something that adresses the matter at hand. I think Young's modulous and the hardness of the strikng surface have something to do with things here too. On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:27:01 -0800 (PST) jimbono@w... (Jim Thompson) writes: > Ya know, if all that fancy math proved anything about the force of > the > hammerhead, then it would be true of a non-titanium hammer as well, > and > all carpenters would have figured out long ago thayt a lighter > hammer is > more efficient. The fact that they did not is proof enough that the > math is baloney, no matter how you slice it. > > Jim Thompson > > -- ---- Start of Message 90144 ---- From: dsoldtools@j... Date: 2001-02-20 03:08:00 Subject: Re: New hammers: Titanium Hart framers, etc. I think that rapid movement is worse for tennis elbow or other forms of tendinitis than is slow. I opt for a heavy hammer swung slowly. Consider the extreme case of a very heavy hammer moving very slowly, let's call it a press. Further, I don't think you're going to swing a hammer that is half as heavy twice as fast--or any where near twice as fast. Finally, momentum scales with velocity, not the square of the velocity. When you hit the nail what is it that makes it move, energy transferred to it by the hammer, or momentum? If you hit the nail with a hammer weighing half as much but moving twice as fast I'll allow as you do transfer more energy into the nail. I'll bet that the result is a much hotter nail, not one driven farther into the wood. On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:53:44 -0800 (PST) Keith Mealy Time to direct the newer members to the physics lesson > and remind the rest of us (which is where I'm headed > now)? > > http://www.infopeople.org/bpl/tool/phys1.html > > Executive summary: > The kinetic energy of the hammer is 1/2 mv^2 or half > times the mass of the hammer, a 24 ounce framing > hammer, times its velocity squared. So if you double > the mass of the hammer, you will double the force of > each blow. But if you double the velocity of the > hammer then the kinetic energy, or the power it can > deliver to the nail, will be four times as much. > > When each joint (shoulder, elbow, wrist) is flexing at > roughly the same rate, then I develop over three times > the speed for three joints as for one, and the power > that drives the nail will be the square of that, or up > to 14 times as much! > > The hammer is no longer being accelerated when it hits > the nail. A good framer releases the hammer before it > hits the nail, so that all of the muscles are fairly > relaxed. The fingers are still gripping the hammer > haft but the wrist, elbow, and shoulder are no longer > in tension. > > This prevents the shock from traveling up your arm and > causing joint and muscle fatigue, which could > eventually lead to carpal tunnel, tennis elbow, etc. > > > ===== > Keith Mealy > > END > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > -- ---- Start of Message 90145 ---- From: "Ryan McNabb" Hi Kris, > > I haven't found any old tool dealers in Atlanta but if you like to look at > lumber check out: > > Atlanta Wood Products > 404-792-0910 This is completely off the subject, but the thread made me think of it. Roy Underhill is going to be at Highland Hardware (Atlanta) in April, I think, and I am thinking of going down to take part in his seminar thingy. The cost is kinda steep, and I wondered if anyone had ever gone to one of these events, and what their thoughts were. Thanks Ryan McNabb ---- Start of Message 90146 ---- From: Darrell & Kathy >>>> recently, while trying to shape a small slip, it occurred to me to try some glass paper, and to my surprise I found that it cut away very fast. For truing an ordinary oil-stone for sharpening planes, take a sheet of glass paper, No. 2, and lay it on the bench, and rub your stone on it. <<<<< Darrell What's next, 19th Century Scary Sharp? Oh yes, and while yer there, check out the "Condensed History of Steam" Manufacturer and builder / Volume 2, Issue 2 / February 1870 http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABS1821-0002-123 -- Darrell LaRue Oakville ON FOYBIPO, Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User ---- Start of Message 90147 ---- From: "Bretton Wade" > Where do you get apple wood? > > > Orchards Allow me to qualify my question, with what may be a series of stupid assumptions of mine: Caveat, I live in Washington state, apple country - a good part of why I was befuddled by the apparent lack of availability of apple wood at local dealers. Caveat, I have an apple tree in my backyard (yes, the real thing - I've been reading Sloane to figure out how to make it bear fruit), but SWMBO saw me eyeing it one day after we had been hunting for wood at the local shops, and well, I know the answer without asking the question. Caveat, I also have a cherry tree in the front yard (possibly ornamental, but it closely resembles a "choke cherry"). OK, so, to the point... I understand that the kind of cherry tree you get cherry wood from (commercially, people, work with me), is not quite the same thing that grows curled and gnarly in my yard here. I had assumed that a similar thing was true of apple, at least that somewhere they might cultivate the tree for the wood, rather than for the fruit. So, to ask my question again, is there a commercial source for apple lumber (that doesn't just sell sticks)? FWIW, a fellow galoot went to some trouble to dig up local sources of apple firewood, and possibly logs, and so we may have a galoot wood gloat in the works. My fingers are crossed. ---- Start of Message 90148 ---- From: Steve Knight I think that rapid movement is worse for tennis elbow or >other forms of tendinitis than is slow. I opt for a heavy >hammer swung slowly. I can argue with this. I have tendinitis in my wrists and it is far harder for me to use a heavy tool. I use as light a hammer as I can. And I rather get hit in the head with a light hammer when it falls out of my hand then a heavy one (G) Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes +Galoot Made Products- Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions. ---- Start of Message 90149 ---- From: scott grandstaff I have been using files on my infills to do the final rounding and > finishing. but it is pretty slow and since the files are flat it leaves flat > planes or marks sometimes. A fair amount of this is endgrain too. I never found > using a scraper on edges that worked well they usually were too aggressive. > The last couple I used the dreaded sandpaper on the filed the flat > spots. any better idea's? > ---- Start of Message 90154 ---- From: paul womack > Don McConnell wrote: > > > Thanks to Darrell for pointing out this interesting article. > > > It contains much good information, > [snip] BUT [snip] > > good example of the pitfalls of much "technical" writing of that period. > > Yes, it seems like a lot of these guys were 'gentlemen authors' who had > some exposure to the crafts and some book-learning but seemed to miss > the finer points. Not unlike myself and, I suspect, a lot of us sitting > here on this virtual Porch. There is a fairly obvious point here: until quite recently, literacy was far from universal. Certainly in the eras of Guilds (and later, simple apprenticeship) the next generation learnt from the previous, not from books, so (once more) it didn't get written down. And most full time craftsman weren't about to sit down and write a book. No time (even for the literate). Anyway, who'd read such a book? (;-) So the only written information we get is either from "dabblers" who *did* have time to sit down and write a book. Or from "recorders", i.e. when people other than the craftsmen wrote the book. BugBear ---- Start of Message 90155 ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 2001-02-21 05:26:00 Subject: Todd's Chisel Todd Hughes wrote: > Had a fellow contact me about making some 18th. century chisels, wasn't >real interested but after awhile thought it might be fun to make one so >yesterday afternoon after getting home from the flea market lit the forge >and made a 1 in. light paring chisel. > I made the body out of a piece of wrought iron bar about 3/4 in. >round,[old fence] shaped it so it had a slight flare back from the cutting >edge and not much of a shoulder where the tang starts which is how these mid >1700's looked. I asked Todd to send me a JPG of this chisel so I could post it up on my server space. You can see it at: http://members.aol.com/hammer9/images/bright_chisel2.jpg Nice chisel, Todd! If it weren't so shiny and pretty looking, you'd think it was something they excavated from Jamestown or found in the Dominy workshops. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a... Will Work For Tools The Galoot's Progress Old Tools site is at: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ---- Start of Message 90156 ---- From: Richard Wilson : > : If you didn't want through mortises, you could acheive the > : same effect > : using a "fox mortise and tenon joint", which is a blind mortise, > : cut with sides at an angle, and a tenon with slots for > : wedges. You have > : to make sure the wedges are exactly the right size, and as > : you insert the > : tenon / wedge assembly into the mortise, the wedges expand > : to fill the > : mortise. I've never tried this, but Hayward has some good pics in > : "Woodwork Joints". > > A book being the best place for them? > > They look much too risky for me to have ever tried one. So much > depends on exactitude, yet who can guarantee the nice uniform depth to > a hand-chopped mortise that appears in the books? Dead-straight > mortise ends at just the predicted angle? All in a reasonable time? > Hum ................ ! > > Jeff, content to be a rude mechanikal. > This is one of my preferred joints. Cut a blind mortise, measure the depth, cut the tenon to suit, undercut the mortise ends, and then slot them, near the ends, and cut the wedges. Now, if you place a straight edge against the (undercut) end of the mortise, it will showe the amount of undercut by 'leaning' and you can measure this at the appropriate height (depth of mortise) to be precise about the width of wedge needed to expand the tenon. Thigs to watch are of course that you cut the wedges short enough, and that you 'ensure' the joint will go together, There is no possibility of a dry run on this. There is *no* backing out if your glue doesn't set (Tom!) Especially on largeish joinery its a fun joint, and absolutely no way of it ever coming apart. Consider some issues such as glue area, and the possibility of exploding the joint if you get it wrong and apply force to close it. Perhaps not a fine furniture joint, but if you're framing your barn... The original question concerned cabinets and carcase joints. THrough dovetails at all corners is a starting point, though you could choose a simple lap joint, alternatively lapped dovetails or double lapped dovetails would be neta. Any form of dovetailed joint would typicallu be hidden by the stuck mouldings around the top and base. Perhaps the favourite, for drawers etc, would be to dovetail rails at the front and back, with angled braces to allow for two dovetails , then apply the actual top to the rails. This allows the top to overhang, whilst hiding the joint, and providing a rail for the drawer framing. The beuty of a dovetailed (or lapped) carcase is of course that grain direction is the same around the carcase, so shrinkage is less of an issue than in, say a six board coffer. Various techniques for dealing with man made composition materials can be used, perhaps corner blocks with lapped panels are worth a mention, but not on this list. Richard Wilson A Yorkshireman (working) at home today - can anyone tell? ---- Start of Message 90157 ---- From: "Carl J. Chimi" This may be off topic, but does anyone know of a suppler of old time > upholstery supplies such as horse hair and moss? Is this stuff still > available? These materials have been replaced because they are outpreformed by their modern equivalents, polyester fill and foam. These materials are more hygienic, do not deteriorate as quickly and retain their loft and spring longer. Clarke Green ______________________________________________ C. A. Green Woodworking - Kennett Square, Pennsylvania ---- Start of Message 90159 ---- From: "Ryan McNabb" I asked Todd to send me a JPG of this chisel so I could post it up on my > server space. You can see it at: > http://members.aol.com/hammer9/images/bright_chisel2.jpg > > Nice chisel, Todd! If it weren't so shiny and pretty looking, you'd think > it was something they excavated from Jamestown or found in the Dominy > workshops. Now you've done it. Go ahead...how much for a set of 4 in 1/4", 1/2", 3/4" and 1" sizes? And would you make any gouges? I need these, I really need these. Cheers Ryan -who long ago gave up looking until today... ---- Start of Message 90160 ---- From: scott grandstaff I asked a relatively stupid question in light of the answers I received: > > > > Where do you get apple wood? > > > ---- Start of Message 90162 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Robert Nelson) Date: 2001-02-21 10:10:00 Subject: Titanium Hi All, The current thread about titanium hammers reminded me of the first time I saw an ad for titanium batteries. I couldn't see how the charateristics of titanium that make it great for some things could possibly translate into making a better battery. I think the results of various tests since then largely support such skepticism. Although the titanium batteries are slightly better in some (but not all) applications, they're not enough better in any to justify their much higher price. ---- Start of Message 90163 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Robert Nelson) Date: 2001-02-21 10:19:00 Subject: Re: Titanium Hi Again, I accidently hit the send button before I was done with my earlier message. Main remaining point I was getting to is that it's fairly common for something that's proven to be good in some areas to be touted in others where its good characteristics are irrelevant. In the case of titanium, I suspect that's true for both batteries and hammers. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 90164 ---- From: "James R. Canning" I asked a relatively stupid question in light of the answers I received: > > > > Where do you get apple wood? > > > > > Orchards > [snip] > I understand that the kind of cherry tree you get cherry wood from > (commercially, people, work with me), is not quite the same thing that > grows curled and gnarly in my yard here. I had assumed that a similar > thing was true of apple, at least that somewhere they might cultivate > the tree for the wood, rather than for the fruit. > > So, to ask my question again, is there a commercial source for apple > lumber (that doesn't just sell sticks)? > OK, I'll admit I am pulling this out of some metaphysical space, but I recall reading several things pertinent to the subject of apple wood. Their cultivation was more wide-spread in earlier days when more of America lived on the farm. Farm and orchard practice has changed in the twentieth century to keep trees pruned closer to the ground. Orchard trees get removed and replaced because old trees are less productive. The best place to find large apple trees is on abandoned farm land (most of which is now days under our collective homes). OK, there's my generalizations on the subject. Now I'll wait for someone w/ real facts to come forward. Bill ---- Start of Message 90166 ---- From: "Joseph Baron" I saw your bench on your web site. > I am particularly interested in your vise made with pipe clamps, I had > considered this myself recently, I thought of doing this one night as I > was drifting off to sleep. How well does it work? How are the movable > jaws of the pipe clamp (presumably "within" your bench) mounted? How do > you adjust the length of the two pipe clamps simultaneously? > How would you do it different? For the effort it took to install the vise and the cost, my pipe clamp vise works extremely well. Let me see if I can answer your questions. If I'm not clear or you'd like more information, let me know. My current bench is basically a 2 x 4 frame that supports a 3/4 and 1/4" sandwich of plywood for the top. The front section of the bench is made up of two 2 x 4's glued together with dog holes dadoed out of each, and then attached to the 2 x 4 rails that go to the back of the bench. The back of the bench is a single 2 x 4 oriented upright (2" on the top, 4" on the sides). Going all the way around this is a 1 x 4 skirt to hide the 2 x 4's. To install the pipe clamp vise, I simply bored out a slightly oversized 3/4" hole through the skirt, the two 2 x 4's in the front (between the dog holes, of course), and the 2 x 4 in the back. I was worried that the pipes would protrude into the tool tray at the back of my bench, but the pipe happened to be just the right length so this doesn't happen. Even if they did run out the back, it probably wouldn't be that big of a deal. When the vise clamps are installed, the pipe goes through the front of the bench, then through the back clamp (I'm calling the orange piece with the tabs for gross adjustment the "back clamp", and the orange piece with the adjustment screw the "front clamp"), then finally, through the hole in the back 2 x 4. I suppose you could put the back clamp at the back of the bench, but then you'd be pulling on the whole frame when you tighten the clamps, rather than simply compressing a pair of 2 x 4's. If the top of your bench was solid wood, it'd probably be fine to put the back clamp at the back rather than under the bench, which would mean that gross adjustments would be easier. Think about how wide the boards you'll be working with are and set the distace between the holes accordingly. Even if you only work with really narrow pieces, you might want to use the vise for edge planing and similar activities, so you'll want the clamps to be fairly far apart just for that reason. There are two things that are important (or that I can think of!) when boring the holes. First, is to make sure that the holes through the front are perpendicular to the face, and that the holes through the back are lined up with the front holes. If the holes don't line up or aren't perpendicular, you'll have lots of trouble using it later and it'll be a pain to adjust it. Second, the holes need to be bored such that the top of the back clamp sits flush with the underside of the bench. If the top of the back clamp isn't flush, the whole vise clamp will simply rotate out of position every time you release it. If the distance between the 2 x 4 and the top isn't right, you might have to tack on a block to make this work out, or chisel away part of the underside of your top to give the back clamp some room. Again, if you're going to put the back clamp at the very back of your bench, this wouldn't matter. When I initially installed my vise, I had a 1 x 4 cut with a couple half circles in it to match the pipes as a vise pad. This was convenient because it was easy to remove, but later I replaced it with a thick piece of wood with two holes drilled through it for the pipes. I made these holes very close to the diameter of the pipes so it would stay reasonably square to the bench skirt. It makes it a bit more of a pain to use when you can't clamp stuff between the pipe clamps because it's not very flexible, but the thickness of the wood, and the positive support all the way around the pipe helps make it sturdier. Adjusting the vise: I keep the back clamps in such a position that the vise will hold most of the pieces of wood I use (it pretty much goes from all the way closed, to being able to hold an 8/4 piece of wood. Occasionally I'll need to adjust the back clamps to allow me to hold larger pieces. This operation is a bit of a pain because the back clamps get really stuck onto the pipes, and it's difficult to get the little metal tabs to release when they're upside down and under the bench. Usually I bang on the front of the pipe clamp a couple times, and that causes the tabs to move forward enough that I can get them to release. One warning -- if you've got drawers right there, *watch out* for what's in the drawer: I got my marking knife stuck into one of my knuckles when the tab suddenly released and my hand flew into the drawer. Ouch! If I need to hold really thick things, the pipe clamps often come out of the holes at the back of the bench, but I've found that this doesn't really matter a whole lot. Here are some of the negatives about this vise. First, even with a thick front vise pad, and holes bored close to the diameter of the pipe, you still have to help the vise when you are clamping something at the edges. So if I'm dovetailing a piece of wood that's wider than the distance between the pipes, I have to clamp the piece on the right edge of the clamp and also put a spacer on the left edge of the clamp so the clamp face stays reasonably square. A similar situation occurs when you are trying to clamp a thin piece of wood at the top of the clamp. If there's one negative about pipe clamps, it's that the jaws aren't very tall (the distance from the pipe to the top edge of the jaw). Again, you just have to rest a similarly thick piece of wood on the pipes, and then clamp your piece at the top of the vise. Using a thick face helps this situation somewhat. Another major negative is the number of times you'll run into it. I've banged my head, my shoulders, my back, my hips, and even tore a shirt that got caught on the handles. Not much you can do about this, and I suspect you'd have the same trouble with virtually any vise you install. Maybe I'm just clumsy. . . Finally, there really isn't any way to adjust both sides of the vise at the same time to insure the vise is clamping perfectly square. I haven't really found this to be a major problem -- if one side isn't clamping as tightly as the other, just turn the loose clamp!? But if you're used to a Veritas twin bench screw vise, I suppose this would be a downgrade. The real advantages are that it's cheap, and its fairly easy to retrofit a bench (which is what I did). Because of what I do with wood, I'd probably be better off with a shoulder vise, but there's no way I could install one of those now without a lot of work. I don't know how hard it would be to put on the twin screw Veritas clamp, but they're a lot more expensive than a couple pipe clamps and an auger bit. As far as doing it differently, I'm not sure. I think I might make the distance between the clamps one bench dog wider. I wind up using the edge to clamp wide boards more than I'd like since the clamp does a really good job of clamping when the material is between the clamps. (Planing end grain really benefits from better attachment). On the other hand, making the clamps farther apart would result in more of the front of my bench being off limits to various important body parts while planing things on the top surface. I do find myself working around them a fair amount even where they are. By the way, there was an article in Fine Woodworking a few years ago that discussed making a cheap bench involving pipe clamps. I've never seen the issue, but you might want to investigate it and see if they have any better ideas. Good luck! Chris -- Christopher S. Swingley 930 Koyukuk Drive System / Network Manager University of Alaska Fairbanks IARC -- Frontier Program Fairbanks, AK 99775 phone: 907-474-2689 fax: 907-474-2643 email: cswingle@i... GNUPG and PGP2 keys at my web site web: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle ----- End forwarded message ----- ---- Start of Message 90168 ---- From: greg van eeckhout Hello - Anyone have a source for any equisetum, of horse tail rush, >to use for sanding? Just thought I'd ask... >Thanks Ryan ---- Start of Message 90169 ---- From: dsoldtools@j... Date: 2001-02-20 22:37:00 Subject: Re: New hammers: Titanium Hart framers, etc. _When_ my tendonitis in wrists and elbows is acting up holding or lifting heavy anything hurts. Luggage, for example. Using lighter tools is less painful once the inflamation has set in. But I've never aggravated the tendonitis, that is to say never gone from no pain to a painful condition, by using heavy tools. Maybe I get too tired too quickly. The last time I had a severe case of tendonitis in both elbows it was brought on by scary sharpening chisels. I should have claified in my comments that I meant rapid, repetative movement, the number of repetitions being, IMHO, th most important factor though hyperextension associated with _very_ rapid movement may also play a role. On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:06:17 -0800 Steve Knight On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:08:04 +0000, you wrote: > > >I think that rapid movement is worse for tennis elbow or > >other forms of tendinitis than is slow. I opt for a heavy > >hammer swung slowly. > > I can argue with this. I have tendinitis in my wrists and it > is far > harder for me to use a heavy tool. I use as light a hammer as I > can. And I > rather get hit in the head with a light hammer when it falls out of > my hand then > a heavy one (G) > > > > Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes +Galoot Made Products- > Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices > See http://www.knight-toolworks.com > For prices and ordering instructions. > > -- ---- Start of Message 90170 ---- From: holloway@n... Date: 2001-02-21 10:02:00 Subject: Re: Problems with Clifton Stay-sets At 6:27 AM -0500 2/21/01, Carl J. Chimi wrote: [snip] >There's always an area under the edge of the chipbreaker, >sometimes large - sometimes small, that doesn't seat right and chokes on >cuttings. I file the leading edge until it looks absolutely straight, with an >appropriate-looking back bevel on it. I lap that edge on a stone (water, >diamond, ceramic - tried all) until it is clean and looks "right". I place it >on the iron, and there's always a gap, and that gap is always enough to choke >the plane. Don't know 'bout no Cliftons, or "OEM" for that matter, but my usual practice when tuning a vintage Stanley or similar chipbreaker is to do final (ie, fine) grinding of the underside of the front edge, the surface that contacts the top of the iron, with the upper end drooping a degree or three over the edge of the SS plate (or stone, if you use them). IOW, the resulting underneath surface of the front edge is not parallel with the top of the iron, but points down toward the front edge at an angle of two or three degrees. (This may be the "back bevel" Carl refers to. If so, maybe the final lapping is eliminating or rounding the desired back bevel.(?) Again, on a run of the mill Stanley and similar, the chipbreaker has a small amount of spring to it, to add stiffening tension once tightened against the iron. Before that big headed short screw is cinched down, the chipbreaker does not lay flat, but shows a little gap. Once the screw is tightened, the front edge will be sprung or splayed slightly away from parallel with the top surface of the iron. If the front edge had been ground parallel in its untensioned state, tightening throws that alignment slightly out of whack, potentially leaving a small gap for shavings to get caught in. Grinding the underside of the surface that contacts the iron in the manner described above corrects for that effect, leaving no gap when the cap iron (chipbreaker) is tightened in place. Maybe some of these ruminations will be applicable to the tuning of other species of chipbreakers.... Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 90171 ---- From: holloway@n... Date: 2001-02-21 10:09:00 Subject: Re: Old upholstery > Jim Thompson asks: > does anyone know of a suppler of old time > upholstery supplies such as horse hair and moss? Is this stuff still > available? Just as folks have suggested getting apple wood in (old) orchards, I think the place to look for horse hair is horses. Seriously, if the intent is to get enough for a repair rather than quantities adequate for making whole new cushions, good sized stables and/or paddocks where a lot of grooming of horses goes on will produce reasonable quantities of horse hair, from the roaching (yes, that's what it's called) of manes and combing of tails. As for moss, I suppose you would have to head for the bayou... Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 90172 ---- From: Mark van Roojen _When_ my tendonitis in wrists and elbows is acting up holding >or lifting heavy anything hurts. Luggage, for example. Using lighter >tools is less painful once the inflamation has set in. My tendonitis / arthritis / whatever acts up just *hefting* a 24+ oz framing hammer, let alone actually using it! I did the up-close-and-personal hammer selection thing today, and ended up choosing a smooth-face 16-oz Hart trimmer with a long, straight handle. ("The California Framer for Wimps", I think is the official marketing designation.) I did not care for the feel of the hatchet-style handles. The Titanium version (not on the shelf at the Borg anyway) are just too pricey for something I won't use everyday. The only thing I wish is that the smaller hammers were available with the magnetic nail starter. They might be in some corner of the universe, but not in mine. So my little girl is giving me a new hammer, and I will be righteously surprised when I get it. Regards, Joe _______________________________________________________ Joseph G. Baron Raleigh, NC ---- Start of Message 90174 ---- From: Minch So the only written information we get is either from "dabblers" who > *did* > have time to sit down and write a book. Think of Dana's "Two Years Before the Mast" - or Irving Johnson's "Peking Rounds the Horn". We rely on dabblers - in these cases college kids - to know a lot of things. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 90175 ---- From: Dave Tardiff > > Let's take a look at a couple of examples. > > The author puts forward Figure 2, as representing the "common > dovetail > joint" in the context of a discussion of grain orientation and wood > movement. A casual glance at the illustration reveals it to show the > pins > as *much* wider than the tails. Anything but typical or common. > Apparently > the illustrator got things confused, here; though other drawings are > more > representative. Maybe not in fine furniture but in antique shops up in the Inner Harbour in Balmore I've seen very crude trunks joined at the corners with pins wider that the tails. Some were, maybe 15" deep (one board, no edge gluing) with but a single dovetail joint at each corner. The pins there were perhaps 10" wide, and the tails were just a pair of half-tails. Doug Caprette Greenbelt, MD USA "What's half an inch between friends? Mind you, it can be quite a bit between lovers!" -- Ed Winslow ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---- Start of Message 90177 ---- From: Jim Nelson I don't see how swinging a 12oz hammer at the same speed >as a 20oz hammer will result in driving a nail in just as fast. The momentum >of the hammer head is what drives the nails, and this is linear wrt >both mass(aw, c'mon, for this can we just use weight? B^)) and velocity. >Reduce the weight 60% and the velocity has to increase 60% to get the >same per hit drive. I tend to think there is some BS and some truth in the advertising. But I disagree with James' analysis here. I think key assumption is that you can swing a lighter hammer *faster* than a heavy hammer, and do the same net work on the nail. And, the velocity does not have to increase 60% to get the same drive. A hammer on a nail is a classic Physics 101 inelastic collision -- total system momentum is conserved (as it must be), but total kinetic energy is not. The work of driving a nail is basically the kinetic energy (KE = 1/2 mv**2) of the hammer being converted mostly into heat of friction as the nail moves into the wood. So it's really the KE that matters, which is linear with mass, but is *not* linear with velocity. Another way to put it, if the masses of the hammer are in the ratio 10:6 (light hammer weighs 60% of the heavy hammer), then the light hammer only has to swing sqrt(10/6) faster, or about 1.3X faster than the heavy hammer to have the same KE and move the nail the same amount. (Gratuitous ASCII math: 1/2(10)V1**2 == 1/2(6)V2**2; V2/V1=sqrt(10/6).) Of course, that doesn't tell you if, or by how much, a person can actually swing a light hammer faster than a heavy one, or if the resulting wear and tear on the muscles and joints is easier or not. (There is a limit to how fast you can swing your arm, hammer or not.) But it does suggest that there could be something to the claims... At any rate, it seems that many people who try these hammers swear by them, others don't. Go figure. Thanks to all who weighed in with an opinion. Regards, Joe _______________________________________________________ Joseph G. Baron Raleigh, NC ---- Start of Message 90180 ---- From: Minch A hammer on a nail is a classic Physics 101 > inelastic collision -- total system momentum is conserved (as it must be), > but total kinetic energy is not. Boy are we beating this one to death (pun intended). Are we forgetting the friction it takes to start the nail moving to begin with? It seems that this amount of required initial blow is the same regardless of size or speed of hammer? If so, a lighter blow might not move the nail at all, a medium blow would start the nail moving but not have much oomph left to drive it, whereas a heavy blow would have plenty left to move the nail after the initial movement starts. If this is true, then it only matters how we get past this starting friction - light hammer swung hard or heavy hammer not so hard. We have also not noted the geometry of the head to the handle - this is where the Hart and the Death Stick are a bit different than the traditional. I've never used either, but do know that I find some axe handles easier to make progress with then others, and, of course, some hammer handles easier to swing. The boatbuilders I know ALL use the Estwing because they are prying with it more often than hammering, and they just don't break. Then there's the crazy framer who used to do the trick of driving an 8d nail completely through a 2X4 with his bare hand in one quick movement with the head of the nail resting in his palm. Ed minch ---- Start of Message 90181 ---- From: "John Horobin" Has anyone else had a problem with buying Clifton Stay-set chip to > retrofit their bench planes? I've fitted these to two planes, a #4 and #4-1/2 without any problems whatsoever, although they do need some tuning to get them to fit as they should. The quality of the machining is probably not quite as good as the Record originals. Chip breakers generally need quite a bit of time spent on them to get them just right and it is worth all the effort. The standard ones should work quite well after a bit of work also but I think the extra mass of the SS type can be of benefit. John ---- Start of Message 90182 ---- From: Paul Honore > Jim Thompson asks: >> does anyone know of a suppler of old time >> upholstery supplies such as horse hair and moss? Is this stuff still >> available? > > Just as folks have suggested getting apple wood in (old) orchards, >I think the place to look for horse hair is horses. Seriously, if the >intent is to get enough for a repair rather than quantities adequate for >making whole new cushions, good sized stables and/or paddocks where a lot >of grooming of horses goes on will produce reasonable quantities of horse >hair, from the roaching (yes, that's what it's called) of manes and combing >of tails. For horse hair, try: http://www.hitchingpostsupply.com/toolspage56.htm http://www.caning.com/exotic.html http://melsleather.netfirms.com/horsehair.htm http://www.primitiveoriginals.com/genhor.html http://www.rasource.com/horsehair.htm http://www.wagmanprimus.com/product-horse.htm http://www.animalhair.com/default.htm Or your local craft shop. For moss, go to a good garden and plant store and buy a bag or two of sphagnum moss. Not sphagnum PEAT moss, which is composted and broken down, but big clumps of moss. This is used for plants in baskets. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ---- Start of Message 90184 ---- From: Eric Coyle not seen any even close to mine. The only justification I can > give is that it's the sweetest WW tool I've ever used! There is an obligatory sucking sound rising from Down Under.... :-) > Is anyone aware of an authoratative volume on Scottish infill > planes, a sort of equivalent to PTAMPIA? > There is one on Spiers planes by an Australian. *bay has a few for sale. If you can't find one, give me a ping and I'll put you in touch with the author himself. Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@n... http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den ---- Start of Message 90189 ---- From: Moses and Meg At any rate, it seems that many people who try these hammers swear by >them, others don't. Just laughing quitely to myself over here in the corner as I picture the guy who spent $70 on a titanium hammer trying to figure out how to tell his neighbor it aint no better then the $3 garage sale hammer. Then he simply decides well it must be better, it cost $70, and he's not going to be made to look like a fool, so he'll simply swear by it. Moses White Pigeon MI Picturing the old tools the Egyptians might have left laying in the bottom of the Red Sea. ---- Start of Message 90190 ---- From: Nichael Cramer One word, Steve: > >spokeshave I had forgotten about a spoke shave. I have a wood one but would need a curved one. then I have to get the stones to sharpen it. Would it work on cocobolo and ebony? those tropicals raise hell on hand tools. Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes +Galoot Made Products- Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions. ---- Start of Message 90196 ---- From: "Bill - Craftsman Studio" I had forgotten about a spoke shave. I have a wood one but would need a curved > one. then I have to get the stones to sharpen it. Would it work on cocobolo and > ebony? those tropicals raise hell on hand tools. I haven't used one on ebony, but I used my mini-Guntershave and MF #1 when I was shaping my little cocobolo smoother, and they worked great. The Guntershave in particular is excellent on endgrain; even cocobolo endgrain. As for sharpening a shave blade with tangs -- all you need is a strip of MDF or wood that is slighly narrower than the distance between the tangs of the blade. Cut your SS paper so it fits, clamp this on top of another narrow piece of wood to give clearance above your bench for the tangs and have at it. If it doesn't have tangs, then you can sharpen like you would any other blade or iron. (With the caveat that the short blades don't always work with sharpening jigs; I freehand them.) Chuck Vance ---- Start of Message 90198 ---- From: michael Lindgren How about that article in Fine Woodworking about the strengths of >joints? It was interesting to see that the testing indicated that the >old-fashioned M&T was twice as strong as doubled-up bisquicks. >Seems like there was another article in the same magazine, not >too many years back, that said just the opposite. Oh good, >something else for the physicists to get excited about. I can hear >it now: "The equipment was flawed", "The wood was inconsistent", >"It should have been measured in Flugwins instead of foot-pounds, >so the data can't be trusted". The more we try to 'prove' something >scientifically, the more we see the limitations of science, >particularly when so many variables are involved. And when you try >to reduce the variables, the results become academic, difficult to >apply to the real world. I find that a woodworker's intuition is a >pretty good guide after all, and no less valid when it comes to >actual woodworking. I did not read this article, but I did read the previous one, and gathered from it that most of the joints were strong enough for what they were being used for. I like dovetails and M&T joints, because I like to do them with saws and chisels and mallets for fun in my limited woodworking time. So I am happy to hear that my favorite joints came out on top this time. But, I am aware, using my woodworkers intuition, that how good my joints are has a lot more to do with my execution of them(how straight do I cut with my trusty atkins #53, etc.) than on what specific joint I use. So, as a woodworker, I'll focus more on improving my handtools skills than worrying about what FWW says about joint strength. Just a long winded way of saying this is one physicist who spends all his work time proving things scientifically, who doesn't intend to do so in his hobby. But why end by knocking science and scientists, who I doubt had anything to do with either test? And who says you can't calculate the velocity of a falling Spiers infill smoother by approximating it in the calculation with a sphere of the same mass and density? Best regards, and in good humor, Mike Lindgren ---- Start of Message 90199 ---- From: Scott Murman -----Original Message----- > From: Nichael Cramer [SMTP:nichael@s... > Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 8:38 AM > To: oldtools@w... > Subject: Term ID: "derouter" > > GG: > > One of Tony Murland's pages lists a "derouter": > > http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/1345.html > > > So, what exactly is a "derouter" and how does it differ > from a "router". > > (Or is this perhaps simple a variant [britishism?] of > "D-router" signifying its shape?) > > Thanks > Nichael > ---- Start of Message 90201 ---- From: "Shannon Salb" I really truly tried to keep my mouth shut on this one. > >Derouter > >By definition, the hand tool used to undo or reverse the groove created by the >Router. Since Gary started this: On a similar note, I'll just point out that for a couple of weeks there my younger daughter's favorite video past-time was watching my Jim Kingshott "Bench Plane" tape in reverse in order to watch him put all those boards back together... ---- Start of Message 90203 ---- From: "richard.wilson" For the same cedar closet lining I've been asking about, I would like to >buy >a beading plane. The strips of wood paneling are 3" and 4" wide. Does >anyone have a good, solid, user-grade bead plane for sale? I don't like Without wanting to pre-judge anything in this department, you can often pick up beaders at places in the UK Of course, my projects often have to wait for a few years while I accumulate the materials. (Current record is 26 years WIP and still counting....) Richard Wilson Mid 20th century Yorkshireman ---- Start of Message 90204 ---- From: NickNaylo@a... Date: 2001-02-22 14:11:00 Subject: Re: Introduction Welcome to the list. as a fellow Bay area galoot, I can recommend the Alameda swap meet(on the old navy base, 1st sunday of every month) as a good source for tools, if not the cheapest. Ashby BART station, Laney College (weekends)and Oakland Colliseum (Tues-Sun) swap meets have cheaper but less consistent OT content. Good to see a brewer on the list. Ben Franklin said "Beer is proof God loves us, and wants us to be happy". Welcome. NN ---- Start of Message 90205 ---- From: brian_welch@h... Date: 2001-02-22 14:33:00 Subject: block plane update and bullnose question GGs, Thank you all for the many responses and welcoming messages I received this past week concerning the LN 140 and block planes in general. The 60 1/2 seemed to be the consensus favorite, and thanks to an incredibly generous deal offered by John Moore, I am now the proud owner of a lovely, scary-sharpened 60 1/2 (Thanks John!). I realized from this little transaction that: 1) I really did need a block plane 2) after seeing a scary-sharp blade on an old tool, I really need to get my hands on some autobody 2000 grit sandpaper--did I mention that my father-in-law is a Norton Co. salesman (beep-beep) 3) this group is the best! My question is block plane related. I hope it is not a stupid or obvious question. I am just about to complete my first project* and I am thinking about options for the next one. I am contemplating tables with either a round top or a porringer table (for an example of a porringer table, see http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/fea9.html ). What would be the best galoot way to put a bullnose on the edge of a round table? Or, a more difficult task, a thumbnail? Are there curved molding planes, or could it be done with a normal molding plane? I remember reading somewhere about Shaker craftsmen who could do a perfect bullnose on a table very quickly with just a block plane. Would a concave spokeshave or scratchstock be more effective (the scratchstock especially for a thumbnail)? I'm sure there is an obvious answer to this question, but I'm new to this. TIA, Brian Welch Worcester, MA *the Galoots first project end table, of course. I'll post some pictures soon. This would actually be an interesting webpage--pictures of all the variations of this table made by various galoots. ---- Start of Message 90206 ---- From: "Roberts, Gary R" From Denis Diderot, that eighteenth century late night talk show host: On the subject of the attitudes of his contemporary craftsmen... "People who continually busy themselves with something... are equally disposed to believe either that everyone knows those things which they are at no pains to hide, or that no one else knows anything about the things they are trying to keep secret. The result is that they are always ready to mistake any person who questions them either for a transcendent genius or for an idiot." and here I just thought that he like engravings... Gary ---- Start of Message 90207 ---- From: "Nuno Souto" I had forgotten about a spoke shave. I have a wood one but would need a curved > one. then I have to get the stones to sharpen it. Would it work on cocobolo and > ebony? those tropicals raise hell on hand tools. > ---- Start of Message 90208 ---- From: Wilkins Andy Unless you doing some very weird shapes, I'd say >you wouldn't need a curved one. Just angle away >with a standard one. You can make just about any >normal convex shape with these, provided the handles >don't get in the way. but you are still going to get flats since it is a flat blade. not much but you feel them more then see them. Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes +Galoot Made Products- Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions. ---- Start of Message 90210 ---- From: TURFF49@a... Date: 2001-02-22 16:30:00 Subject: Speaking of Scary Sharp Guys and Gals, Do you worry about the angle to preciseness when doing scary sharp(SS) and does the Vveritas sharpening guide work for SS. I've never taken the time to use the method and find I'll have the time tomorrow to put an edge on my plane blades and chisels. Thanks, Brian ---- Start of Message 90211 ---- From: Derek Berwald I had forgotten about a spoke shave. I have a wood one but would >need a curved one. I recently made a new spokeshave, so I thought to turn my old one (I swap the blade back and forth to save money) into a curved bottom one, so I could smooth concave curves. The original one is really ugly, made from a gunterman kit beforeI had ever seen a spokeshave. So I took a rasp and file, and went after the sole of the spokeshave, in front of the blade, changing it from the normal flat to curved. It is rounded front to back, not side to side. Not like a travisher, for example. It doesn't work well. It still smooths ok, but the concave curve that it can handle is very shallow; not really what I was hoping for. Has anyone tried this successfully? It seems that the blade itself limits the curvature. I've never seen a wooden spokeshave in the wild, so maybe nobody ever does this. I appreciate any tips. Thanks. db, in the Central Valley of California ****** Derek Berwald derek@p... ---- Start of Message 90212 ---- From: John.S.North@v... (John S. North) Date: 2001-02-22 13:56:00 Subject: Re: Speaking of Scary Sharp --- You wrote: Do you worry about the angle to preciseness when doing scary sharp(SS) and does the Vveritas sharpening guide work for SS. .............. --- end of quote --- Yes and yes. JN in NH ---- Start of Message 90213 ---- From: eugene@t... Date: 2001-02-22 17:29:00 Subject: A.D. Muehlmatt? GG's: Any info out there on a manufacturer A. D. Muehlmatt Maker Cincinnati, O.? I'm interested mostly in years of operation, but also what type of tools produced. What I have is for engravers - primarily jewelry I suspect, but I have little to go on to guess their age. Gene ---- Start of Message 90214 ---- From: garyallan may Hi Tom. OEM is the lazy galoot's way of saying "the > one that came with the > plane". And you have discerned my meaning of "back > bevel" precisely. One aims to > create a pretty "sharp" edge right at the very tip > of the chipbreaker, so that when > it's all tightened down, the back bevel hunkers down > tight on the iron, and there > is no light showing underneath between the iron and > the chipbreaker at the front > edge. > > At least, that's the theory as I've heard it bandied > about. I've even succeeded at > making it happen on several of my old planes. When > I do, they work great. But > I've got a couple (including a #20 1/2 circular > plane), that I just haven't been > able to get that darn chipbreaker to seat without a > gap. It's frustrating, because > I learned to sharpen the irons by reading about how > to do it, then doing it (with a > little help from my visit to see John Gunterman a > while back). My irons may not be > the sharpest in the bunch, but they seem to work > real well. I just can't > understand why I fail with the chipbreakers. I use > the technique you describe > below (dropping the angle to create the back bevel). > > Well, I wish I were retired so that I could spend my > days studying this problem. > Thanks for the response. > > Carl > > > > -- > ---- Start of Message 90215 ---- From: James Foster Guys and Gals, > Do you worry about the angle to preciseness when doing scary sharp(SS) and > does the Vveritas sharpening guide work for SS. I've never taken the time to > use the method and find I'll have the time tomorrow to put an edge on my > plane blades and chisels. Thanks, Brian > > ---- Start of Message 90216 ---- From: "Stephen Reynolds" From: Minch > Then there's the crazy framer who used to do the trick of driving an 8d nail > completely through a 2X4 with his bare hand in one quick movement with the > head of the nail resting in his palm. > Man, that gives a whole new meaning to handtool. I wouldn't go around calling him crazy to his face. Otherwise he may give you a Titanium Hart Attack. Regards, Steve - wondering if there is anyone else who can do the function of a handtool without the tool and with just the hand. ---- Start of Message 90217 ---- From: "C. McArdle" Think of Dana's "Two Years Before the Mast" - or > Irving Johnson's "Peking > Rounds the Horn". We rely on dabblers - in these > cases college kids - to > know a lot of things. > > Ed Minch > > -- > ---- Start of Message 90219 ---- From: Tim Swihart > I just saw the Roy Underhill show featuring Mike Dunbar > and his school....positively inspirational.. > > Anyway, would any graduate of the place care to tell me > how much the beginner class would cost me, after I add up > the tuition, housing, and required tools? Braces and spokeshaves > I already have, and transportation would not be an issue, as > I'm pretty close and could drive. According to the 2001 Schedule inside the back cover of the Winter 2001 issue of Mike's "The Windsor Chronicles", the Sack Back class tuition is $650. A 50% deposit is required up front to hold your spot. Mike's classes book well ahead of time, so you'll need to plan ahead (or get amazingly lucky and call just after a cancellation...but there's probably somebody ahead of you for that too...best bet is to plan ahead). Cost of housing depends on where you stay. Portsmouth is a dozen miles up the road and has a wide variety of name brand hotels (you could get a room at a Residence Inn for example and do your own cooking to reduce costs if you need). I always pick somewhere much closer (couple miles) to Mike's shop. Cost per night has ranged from $65-85. There _ARE_ cheaper places. I stay at The Inn of Hampton because it's nice, clean, quiet, etc (i.e.: worth more than they're asking). I'm allergic to household dust so hotels that don't clean well really mess up my sinuses...usually the dirt-cheap places have that problem, so I stay a wee bit upscale so I can breathe. :-) Personally, I ignore the hotel cost. If I went somewhere else for vacation, I'd have a similar hotel cost (probably higher) so it's simply part of the vacation's cost, not part of the class' cost. As for the required tools. Mike has "shop tools" you can borrow if you're missing anything important (like the spoon bits, tapered reamer, gutter adze, scorp, etc) and you're not sure you want to make more chairs at home (you will). That means you can skip buying the $150 gutter adze (for now), the $120 scorp, and some other pricey (but well worth it) tools. So, you'll have to work through the list Ester posted and see how much you have, how much you can mooch from the wall of shop tools (the bright green ones, not Mike's personal ones), and ask yourself, how many of what you're missing can you find cheap (vs. having to pay top dollar from a dealer)? Caution, chair making is easier than it looks and you'll likely find yourself buying the tools you lack so you can complete your set of chairs at home. I own my own gutter adze but I don't bring it to class. It's too bulky/heavy to justify shipping cross country when it's used only for the seat. I make-do with one of the loaner adzes from Mike's wall of shop tools. Lately, I haven't been shipping out my Jack plane either because that cuts several pounds off the weight of the tools I'm shipping (and dang that box of tools gets heavy). I do pack a smoother since I'm picky about that (though it sees little use when making a chair...most of the work is done w/ drawknife, spokeshave, and brace/bit so don't skimp on these). Good luck and hope to see you in class there some day, Tim S. ---- Start of Message 90220 ---- From: Adam From: Shannon Salb OK, guys, I feel sorta dense here. > > In making a case (say a buffet or set of drawers or what-have-you), what are > the common methods for joining the sides to the top and bottom? ---- Start of Message 90224 ---- From: "peter evans" GG's with an interest in these things... the effects of hitting the ball on the "sweet spot" of the bat- There was a very marked increase in the "bounce" of the ball off of that spot as compared to others. > Ergo, methinks that the "mass-velocity" is perhaps the major portion of the equation for driving a nail with a hammer, but is certainly not the only physics at work. It is concievable in my mind that there COULD be a better hammer. That's why my hammer rack is too small. Cowtown Eric __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ---- Start of Message 90226 ---- From: FrankSronce > > However, on a practical level I reckon that the surface quality of the > hammer face (especially in regard to cleanliness) can have a lot to do > with preventing nailic erectile disfunction. ---- Start of Message 90227 ---- From: Tim Swihart > It doesn't work well. It still smooths ok, but the concave curve > that it can handle is very shallow; not really what I was hoping for. > > Has anyone tried this successfully? It seems that the blade itself > limits the curvature. I've never seen a wooden spokeshave in the > wild, so maybe nobody ever does this. I appreciate any tips. > > Yep, I've done it. Did it during one of Dave "Shah of Shaves" Wachniki's shave making classes with him there to guide me so I'm pretty sure it's done reasonably well. :-) Yes, the blade itself tends to limit the radius you can shave into. Two ways to solve that: - use a smaller blade (last time I checked both Hock Tools and Kansas City Windsor Tool Works offered a smaller-than-normal sized blade). - make a new body with the blade upside down (you have to remove the posts) so that it rides bezel-down. Now, the tightest radius you can fit into is primarily dependent upon the bezel's length. Don't cut a bed for the blade (or you'll have the shave's body in the way much sooner than you wanted)... The second method looks odd, but I used one that Dave Wachniki made with one of the small blades (i.e.: he combined both approaches into one shave) and it was particularly sweet. :-) Or, get one of those Millers Falls #1 cigar shaves (or the modern version of it from Tim Kelly)...full size compass shaves were meant for larger curves...tighter curves demand smaller shaves or a different approach. Tim S. ---- Start of Message 90228 ---- From: Adam These days, hitters have shaved their bat handles to > the thinnest possible cross-section, and when they can > get away with it, hollowed and "corked" the barrels. > I haven't heard of anyone filling their bats with > lead... > spring training!!! GAM Yeah, this is an effort to maximize deflection forces, not momentum transfer. I also heard of putting a ball of lead or other heavy material inside the hollowed out bat. When held up, the ball is close to the handle, so it that the bat can be swung rapidly, but during swinging the ball moves to the end of bat due to centripetal force. Conservation of angular momentum means that the bat slows down, but then you've got a heavy slow moving bat to transfer lots of momentum to the ball. It's kind of like a dead blow hammer, but not exactly. ---- Start of Message 90230 ---- From: "Bretton Wade" Cost of housing depends on where you stay. Portsmouth is a dozen miles up > the road and has a wide variety of name brand hotels (you could get a room > at a Residence Inn for example and do your own cooking to reduce costs if > you need). Might I suggest that seeking roommates for a double room would probably make it cheaper for both parties. Maybe 3 to a room, too, depending on the room. Bretton Who has been to at least one too many conferences on his own dime. ---- Start of Message 90231 ---- From: jimbono@w... (Jim Thompson) Date: 2001-02-22 19:14:00 Subject: Re: Speaking of Scary Sharp Brian wants to know: >>As to the 36 grit, I have a whole roll of 20 grit(I think it was used to sand flooring) would that work if I needed to remove a lot. I might see if I can find the time tonight to try it out since it's pouring down rain outside.<< You are going to be told that the coarser paper will leave deep scratches in the base of your plane. To which I can only reply, "Have you ever seen the bottom of a corrugated plane?" I flatten mine on pretty coarse paper and leave it at that. My planes are users and I am only concerned with their function. Now if I had a really nice pretty plane that I wanted to keep original, then of course I would not do that to it. You have to use your own best judgement. Woodies are a different matter. Jim Thompson ---- Start of Message 90232 ---- From: "VANSLOUN,BRUCE (HP-USA,ex1)" I have a chisel with an indistinct maker's mark. The logo is a Swan. >Does anyone know who this maker is? This is likely made by The James Swan Company. James Swan, who had been associated with the Douglas Manufacturing Co. at Seymour, Connecticut since 1865, purchased the works in 1877. He and his descendants owned and operated this rather large firm (about 125 employees in 1902) for a number of years. At some point, it passed into the ownership of R.S. Robie, who, finally, closed the works in 1951. [Information from the Foreword to Ken Roberts' reprint of the 1911 James Swan Company Catalog.] Not surprisingly, a swan was commonly part of the mark used on tools made by this company. A distant second possibility is that it *may* be a product of the Samuel Swann Brittain & Company of Sheffield. This firm manufactured saws, planes, joiners and edge tools from 1841 to, at least, 1900 (edge tools 1856-1900-). An advertisement in the 1841 Sheffield Directory indicates that their saws were marked, mostly for export, with "S. Swann & Co." [Information from Ken Roberts' _Some 19th Century English Woodworking Tools_, c. 1980] A swan was, sometimes part of this mark for export saws, though I don't know if it was ever used on edge tools. It was used on products other than saws, though, as it appears on a knife used in _The Cutting Edge_ Sheffield exhibit in 1992. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 90235 ---- From: "David and Holly Sawyer" The Pootatuck Lion Miter trimmer investigation has led to the larger topic > of pattern making, for which the class of miter trimming tools of varying > sizes was primarily used. > > So now I am accreting info and sources for the inevitable slide into this > space. > > BTW, I know navigating the pics is annoying, and I promise to fix it, as > soon as I can teach myself how to make thumbnails. > > chris > > cmca@c... > > "First we shape our tools. Thereafter, they shape us." > > -- Marshall McLuhan > > > -- ---- Start of Message 90236 ---- From: "Brent Beach" The base started out as a 3" by 6" piece of 3/4" plywood. I put a dado > through the middle (with an unmentionable device) and glued in a piece of > 1/2" baltic birch plywood. Then tacked another piece of 1/2"ply along one > edge to align the side of the blade/chisel to. Whack off one side at 1 9/16" > from the "fence" for the 25 degree side, and then whack off the other side at > 1 3/16" for the 30 degree side. Since I forget which is which, I wrote on > each side with a magic marker. ---- Start of Message 90237 ---- From: "Brent Beach" Skip the jig. The angle is a total red herring. > > I have to ask myself how the folks that made this country's finest furniture > sharpened their chisels without the Lee Valley Veritas Jig? > > I especially don't like the idea of pushing my edge across the paper. Any > tiny particle under the paper, or if the paper isn't totally glued down, you > round your edge. > > I hold my chisels and plane irons like a pencil and work from side to side. > I stick the paper to the glass with water under and over the paper. I wear > out the paper or switch it so often, it doesn't make sense for me to glue it > down. Perhaps one voice from the other side. If the glass and paper are clean, no big deal, you do not get grit under the paper and do not have it tear. If the paper is glued down well, it rounds much less than if just held by water. As the paper wears out and you push harder, rounding increases. A good reason to change paper regularly. I have only three grades of paper on my honing set up (three 1/6 sheets on one piece of glass), the three grades of 3M paper sold by Lee Valley. Only the coarse grit get used up at all quickly, since it does most of the work. The other two are very rarely changed. I use a shop made wooden jig that grabs the iron between two pieces of maple. The jig slides on the glass. Quick, repeatable edges every time. Brent Beach Victoria, BC, CA mailto:ub359@v... ---- Start of Message 90238 ---- From: lgs15716@c... Date: 2001-02-23 00:58:00 Subject: Former Teacher's (babysitter's) Website Hello All: After a number of weeks trial and error, I have FINALLY set up my website. Some of you may remember I left teaching to pursue a career as a cabinetmaker. Well.. I also deal antiques on the side to help supplement my income. While the website is not perfected, it is something. Any constructive advise is welcomed and appreciated, spell and grammer check is also welcome. My URL is: http://www.mynvo.com/spice_boxes/pages/view/index.nhtml or an easy link: http://welcome.to/spiceboxes Thanks again as always. Lou ---- Start of Message 90239 ---- From: "C. McArdle" I don't have any for sale, but I do have my great-grand father's tool set if >you want to see an example of what one patternmaker owned. > >http://www.dhsawyer.com/wood%20files/patterntools.htm > >a lot of the site is still being moved between servers, but this part is up. This is great, exactly the kind of contacts I meant to make. Thanks again. chris cmca@c... "First we shape our tools. Thereafter, they shape us." -- Marshall McLuhan ---- Start of Message 90240 ---- From: "Nuno Souto" but you are still going to get flats since it is a flat blade. not much but you > feel them more then see them. > ---- Start of Message 90241 ---- From: Don McConnell ...help with IDing a couple of back saws. > >J.D. Darlington, steel backed, with "Spring Steel, 30, Warranted" >on the spine in addition to the name. I thought it was English >but it actually does not say Sheffield on it so have to admit that >I have no foundation for that. Split nut screws, no medallion. > >The G&T Gray brass back DOES say Sheffield so I'll count that one >English. It too has split screws. Since Erv hasn't spoken up, I'll take a shot at this. J.D. Darlington was one of the marks used by the Harvey W. Peace Co., which operated in New York from 1861 to 1890 - at which time it was absorbed by Disston. Information from Erwin Schaffer's _Hand-Saw Makers of North America_, c. 1999. George & Thomas Gray were listed in Sheffield Directories as saw makers from -1849 - 1860-. Information from Ken Roberts' _Some 19th Century English Woodworking Tools_, c. 1980. Hope this helps. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 90242 ---- From: PauldmayP@n... (Paul D. May) Date: 2001-02-23 07:50:00 Subject: Re: Speaking of Scary Sharp TURFF49@a... wrote: > > Guys and Gals, > Do you worry about the angle to preciseness when doing scary sharp(SS) and > does the Veritas sharpening guide work for SS. Brian, I use the Veritas for initial sharpening (SS) from a ground edge starting with 150 grit and going through 2000. After final passes on a waterstone (8000) I put the jig away...touch ups are done freehand. http://paulncathy.homepage.com/woodworking.html __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ---- Start of Message 90243 ---- From: Conan The Librarian but you are still going to get flats since it is a flat blade. not much but you > feel them more then see them. Not necessarily. If you skew your shave and work it diagonally across the surface, you can get rid of any flats. It's the same basic technique I use for rounding over edges with a block plane. Once again, it's harder to describe than to do, but when I want to round over an arris, I start by cutting a small chamfer going directly in line with the edge. Then I skew the plane or shave so it's approaching at about a 45 degree angle and "roll" it over the flat knocking off the sharp edges. Shaves, with their small (and slightly-rounded) soles are the perfect choice for this. Unlike a flat-soled plane, they can easily follow curves. And they are called *spoke*shaves after all. Chuck Vance ---- Start of Message 90244 ---- From: Russ Allen The Pootatuck Lion Miter trimmer investigation has led to the larger topic > of pattern making, for which the class of miter trimming tools of varying > sizes was primarily used. > > So now I am accreting info and sources for the inevitable slide into this > space. My pattern making collection is at: http://www.mcs.net/~rallen/collection.html A new addition is a blacksmith scene pattern which was formerly e*ay item 555113810. It'll be added to the working collection- eventually I'll be casting a few of these. 'tis a slippery slope with all that damn champhor, wax and parting compound laying around. Russ Allen ---- Start of Message 90245 ---- From: "Flowers, Curt" GG: >One of Tony Murland's pages lists a "derouter": > http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/1345.html >So, what exactly is a "derouter" and how does it differ >from a "router". >(Or is this perhaps simple a variant [britishism?] of >"D-router" signifying its shape?) >Thanks >Nichael ---------------- Well, of course it's the formal spelling of "da router". You know, like "da Bears" and similar to "dem planes over dere". - Curt, ducking quickly and running fast. ---- Start of Message 90246 ---- From: Adam Hello Galoots, > > I made a jig to help me quickly set the both the angle and also help get > the > edge square. I think I saw this jig mentioned somewhere but I can't > remember > where now. I certainly was not smart enough to think of it myself. > Rather > than resort to ASCII art, I shot a picture. You can find it at; > > http://members.aol.com/jlmoore/pics/jig.jpg > > The base started out as a 3" by 6" piece of 3/4" plywood. I put a dado > through the middle (with an unmentionable device) and glued in a piece of > > 1/2" baltic birch plywood. Then tacked another piece of 1/2"ply along > one > edge to align the side of the blade/chisel to. Whack off one side at 1 > 9/16" > from the "fence" for the 25 degree side, and then whack off the other > side at > 1 3/16" for the 30 degree side. Since I forget which is which, I wrote > on > each side with a magic marker. > > I slip the blade in the Veritas jig, align the blade side and edge with > the > fences, butt the front of the jig against the edge of the plywood and > tighten > it down. Takes much longer to write than to do. > ---- Start of Message 90248 ---- From: "Gary P. Johns" But why end by knocking science and scientists, who I doubt >had anything to do with either test? And who says you can't calculate >the velocity of a falling Spiers infill smoother by approximating it >in the calculation with a sphere of the same mass and density? And it's a lot better for the plane to do it this way! Mark Mark van Roojen Department of Philosophy University of Nebraska - Lincoln 1010 Oldfather Hall Lincoln, NE 68588-0321 (402) 472-2428 (w) Home: POB 83836 Lincoln, NE 68501-3836 (402) 4383724 (h) Webpage: www.geocities.com/mvr1.geo/ or www.mvr1.com ---- Start of Message 90251 ---- From: geoffrey kimbrough - wondering if there is anyone else who can do the function of a > handtool without the tool and with just the hand. Well, I'm not real proud of it, but I used to use my bare hand as a pushstick. Geoff -- IT#69 ---- Start of Message 90252 ---- From: Louis Michaud From TAINTOR'S SUGGESTIONS on the CARE of SAWS, with additional suggestions by the Author of this book. [This appears to be the Taintor material] To set fine saws, 10 to 16 points, use face No. 1. If this sets too much put the washer under the anvil and use face No. 3. If not enough use face No. 2 without the washer. This will give a short bend near the point like the set of most new saws. To set medium saws for ordinary work in soft woods, use face No. 4. No. 3 will set less, No. 5 more and No. 6 still more. If it is desired to bend the tooth farther from the point use faces in division C. To set rip saws for fine work use face No. 7. For coarse work face No. 8. No. 9 will give more set than No. 8. Never use the face that reaches below the root of the tooth. The anvil should be screwed lightly down with the face selected for use accurately in line with the clamping jaw. In use bring the handles together with sufficient force to press the tooth hard against the face of the anvil, but not hard enough to crush it or draw it out of shape. To change the plunger drive out the pin that holds the lower handle. The plunger will then come out with the handle. Put the new plunger in place of the one removed, file the burr off the pin, drive it back to its place and rivet it lightly. The pin should be driven from the right hand side of the saw set, and with a punch small enough to go in the cup of the pin. [The following appears to have been added by Johnson.] While the TAINTOR POSITIVE SAW SET meets the requirements of general use and is as good as the price called for, a saw set costing more money is sometimes needed. The setting of many thousands of saws compels me to use the best quality of light oil on the wearing parts. I also had to harden the pins and the ends of the handles where the pins pass through, which is done by throwing them into water while heated at a cherry red. As the handles usually close up too much for the hand, as a remedy, I would heat and bend the upper handle outward just back of the rivet hole or draw and lengthen out the plunger and harden it to stand the wear of excessive use. The ears or supports of the saw set coming in contact with the teeth should he trued and smoothed up and then hardened to prevent wear, which changes the setting. This hardening of the supports causes the saw set to slide over the saw like slipping over smooth ice. A better support is made by filing away the ears the thickness of the hardened plate to he inserted, which may be a wedge shaped piece of thin handsaw blade of suitable length and width, sharpened on the sides and driven in place. It will cut its way into the soft steel, which will hold it securely. Brent Brent Beach Victoria, BC, CA mailto:ub359@v... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Michaud" Just how the heck does this thing work?!! ... ---- Start of Message 90255 ---- From: jimbono@w... (Jim Thompson) Date: 2001-02-23 14:25:00 Subject: Bare handed nail driving The question was asked whether anyone knew of any bare handed nail drivers. Back a long time ago in another lifetime there was a Japanese karate master named Masutatsu Oyama who did things like that in an effort to interest people in karate before it became popular. He even knocked a bull unconscious with his bare hand. He refused to kill the bull. One of my best friends studied in Japan and Korea in the 1950's and became the unarmed self defense instructor on my instruction team in the Army. He could do things like that. Very impressive. Jim Thompson ---- Start of Message 90256 ---- From: TURFF49@a... Date: 2001-02-23 17:32:00 Subject: Re: First plane imported in North America? In a message dated 2/23/01 2:49:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, louis_michaud@u... writes: Guess it's time to start digging in the back yard , better yet is that why we say "we'll slide back under the porch" because in actuallity we're looking for these old planes. That would be the epitome of "Old Tool H*ll". Brian :) ---- Start of Message 90257 ---- From: "William K. Taggart" >Unless you doing some very weird shapes, I'd say > >you wouldn't need a curved one. Just angle away > >with a standard one. You can make just about any > >normal convex shape with these, provided the handles > >don't get in the way. > but you are still going to get flats since it is a flat > blade. not much but you > feel them more then see them. Ah, but then you can follow up with a hand-held scraper - that's what I did when I recently repaired an old chair (it's all done, by the way - re-wove the seat in a nice herringbone pattern with navy blue shaker tape - VERY nice). I made a spindle with drawknife, spokeshave, and then scraper. The scraper removes the edges of the "flats" left by the spokeshave. I must admit I cheated a bit since my scraper was not truly scary sharp, so I followed it up with fine steel wool. The result is a nice, smooth, shiny spindle. - Bill Taggart - On the road in St. Louis, MO ---- Start of Message 90258 ---- From: "William K. Taggart" I asked Todd to send me a JPG of this chisel so I could post > it up on my server space. You can see it at: > http://members.aol.com/hammer9/images/bright_chisel2.jpg Cool. Are the materials in the background illustrative of what the chisel started from? Now THAT'S what I call recycling... - Bill Taggart - On the road in St. Louis, MO ---- Start of Message 90259 ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Nice set of watchmakers staking tools. Very complete set, 114 pieces > total. $135.00 > http://www.geocities.com/jointer.geo/orhg/feb/watchmaker0201.jpg Y'know, I don't know if I'm just tired, having a brain cramp, or what, but someone remind me again - just exactly what is a staking tool used for? And don't tell me "making watches"... - Bill ---- Start of Message 90260 ---- From: Steve Noe > Dear Galoots, > > Does the Kelly Tool Works have a page on the net? Nope phone is 760-376-4804 > Does anyone know roughly how much their MF#1 spokeshave costs? $70, per the ad in the Feb 2001 _Woodwork_ I got mine about 3 years ago, and SWMBO says it wasn't much less. Certainly it's well made and works like a charm. Usual Disclaimers Apply. Steve Noe, in Indianapolis fusilier@m... We are not “Passengers on SpaceShip Earth,” we are crew, and it’s about time we took our duties seriously. ---- Start of Message 90261 ---- From: Minch The question was asked whether anyone knew of any bare handed nail > drivers. When I brought this up, I meant to state that I saw this happen. It was a big burly blonde guy in his middle thirties and I saw him do it 4 or 5 times over the month or so that I worked with him. The nail would stick out from just a touch to less than 1/2"- I think once it didn't come through. One lunch period he did it twice. It seemed to leave no mark on the palm of his hand, and he never let on that it hurt. The ultimate hand tool. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 90262 ---- From: Minch Thanks to Darrell for pointing out this interesting article. > > It contains much good information, including enough practical > hints and tips that, at first blush, it appears to have been written by > someone with a fair amount of practical experience. However, it contains enough > incorrect and confusing information that it becomes clear that while the author had > obviously gleaned information from those with practical experience, he > wasn't entirely familiar with the work itself. [SNIP] > Hoping I'm not sounding too much like a curmudgeon. You curmudgeon, you... But seriously - once you get past the inconsistencies and misleading pictures, etc., what he's trying to describe is pretty much the method that Frank Klausz espouses - cut the pins by eye and approximation, mark the tails from the pins, cut the pins with a backsaw, lay them on the bench like a set of steps, chisel them out halfway from one side, flip over and chisel out from other side. I, like the above-mentioned author, have gleaned information from those with practical experience, but am not entirely familiar with the work itself. Someday I _will_ cut dovetails with ease.. - Bill Taggart - On the road in St. Louis, MO ---- Start of Message 90264 ---- From: "Michael S Davies" GG > > I am aware of stjamesbaytoolco.com for a small selection of 45 (medium sized > combination plane, Jeff) parts. Is there another source of depth stops and > screws and the like. How about ready to use blades? Is there a good source > of a selection of used parts other than the bay? > Thanks in advance > > Ed Minch > > -- ---- Start of Message 90266 ---- From: Adam If these work in a 55 without a dedicated sole, will they work in a 45 > without a dedicated sole. I don't believe so, because one of the main differences between the 45 and 55 is that the on the 55, the sliding skate adjusts vertically as well as horizontally, so it can be adjusted to support the edge of such cutters. The reason the 45 needs special bottoms is to address this. - Bill ---- Start of Message 90276 ---- From: Dave Strommen Sorry for asking I know this has been asked before: > > Where can I buy new saw nuts? No joke, I think > they're called "sex bolts" > They don't have to match existing saws, but should > be brass. > > Thanks > > Adam > > > -- > ---- Start of Message 90278 ---- From: holloway@n... Date: 2001-02-24 20:26:00 Subject: Holdfast pictures GGs-- I don't mean this to be piling up the Efesses, but I thought it would be useful to pass on the URL of a site where a very kind member of this list, who shall remain anonymous (hint: his last name is buried in the URL) has made some space for pictures of some of the holdfasts my son Tim has made for sale: http://www.knight-toolworks.com/web_temp_pics/holdfast.html This will probably save some bandwidth otherwise used for sending these photos as attachments, and anyone who wants to see the product can do it anonymously. Thanks for your indulgence, Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 90279 ---- From: Eric Coyle A question: > > If these work in a 55 without a dedicated sole, will they work in a 45 > without a dedicated sole. It seems like they might actually be better > because you won't have the edges of the sole to get in the way of a smooth > transition from one shape to the next. Not really. The 55 has that middle skate that supports those irons. The 45 hasn't, that's why those special soles are sold for the 45. Having said that, it all depends on what sort of wood you're working with, how deep is the cut you're trying,etc etc. > > Are there any 55 blades that won't work in a 45?? I know you won't have the > vesatility of the 55, but can you at least do something with all of them?? I think the ones that take an almost lateral cut will be very hard to use on a 45. Also, any of the wider ones: not as well supported as in the 55. Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@n... http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den ---- Start of Message 90281 ---- From: Roger Birkhead From TAINTOR'S SUGGESTIONS on the CARE of SAWS, with additional suggestions by the Author of this book. [This appears to be the Taintor material] To set fine saws, 10 to 16 points, use face No. 1. If this sets too much put the washer under the anvil and use face No. 3. If not enough use face No. 2 without the washer. This will give a short bend near the point like the set of most new saws. To set medium saws for ordinary work in soft woods, use face No. 4. No. 3 will set less, No. 5 more and No. 6 still more. If it is desired to bend the tooth farther from the point use faces in division C. To set rip saws for fine work use face No. 7. For coarse work face No. 8. No. 9 will give more set than No. 8. Never use the face that reaches below the root of the tooth. The anvil should be screwed lightly down with the face selected for use accurately in line with the clamping jaw. In use bring the handles together with sufficient force to press the tooth hard against the face of the anvil, but not hard enough to crush it or draw it out of shape. To change the plunger drive out the pin that holds the lower handle. The plunger will then come out with the handle. Put the new plunger in place of the one removed, file the burr off the pin, drive it back to its place and rivet it lightly. The pin should be driven from the right hand side of the saw set, and with a punch small enough to go in the cup of the pin. [The following appears to have been added by Johnson.] While the TAINTOR POSITIVE SAW SET meets the requirements of general use and is as good as the price called for, a saw set costing more money is sometimes needed. The setting of many thousands of saws compels me to use the best quality of light oil on the wearing parts. I also had to harden the pins and the ends of the handles where the pins pass through, which is done by throwing them into water while heated at a cherry red. As the handles usually close up too much for the hand, as a remedy, I would heat and bend the upper handle outward just back of the rivet hole or draw and lengthen out the plunger and harden it to stand the wear of excessive use. The ears or supports of the saw set coming in contact with the teeth should he trued and smoothed up and then hardened to prevent wear, which changes the setting. This hardening of the supports causes the saw set to slide over the saw like slipping over smooth ice. A better support is made by filing away the ears the thickness of the hardened plate to he inserted, which may be a wedge shaped piece of thin handsaw blade of suitable length and width, sharpened on the sides and driven in place. It will cut its way into the soft steel, which will hold it securely. Brent Brent Beach Victoria, BC, CA mailto:ub359@v... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Michaud" Just how the heck does this thing work?!! ... ---- Start of Message 90284 ---- From: eugene@t... Date: 2001-02-25 18:12:00 Subject: RE: Feb - Short and Sweet At 06:58 PM 2/23/01 -0500, Bill wrote: >Y'know, I don't know if I'm just tired, having a brain cramp, or what, but >someone remind me again - just exactly what is a staking tool used for? > >And don't tell me "making watches"... > Um...well, it's also needed in making clocks. Y'see, you have fabricated this clockwork wheel (gear) and it's shaft. Slip the shaft into the wheel's center hole and the staking tool delivers your hammer blow to the hub of the wheel. Wheel is staked in place straight and true. Also useful when staking jewels into plates for that shaft. Must be more, but I'm tired too. Woodworking uses, I can't think of any - but the sets sure are pretty. Gene ---- Start of Message 90285 ---- From: Steve Sullivan > GG, > > Have a look at: > http://www.ucalgary.ca/HIST/tutor/migrations/ > > scroll down to 1.3b, Norse carpenter's plane. > Missing wedge and iron? > Anybody know what they look like now? > By the shape of this one I would say a > shipwright's plane. Very nice design. > Bit of a hike to get there; here's the sub-frame separated out: http://www.ucalgary.ca/HIST/tutor/migrations/one3.html BugBear ---- Start of Message 90290 ---- From: paul womack > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carl I. Chime" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 11:27 AM > Subject: Problems with Clifton Stay-sets > > > Has anyone else had a problem with buying Clifton Stay-set chip to > > retrofit their bench planes? > > I've fitted these to two planes, a #4 and #4-1/2 without any problems > whatsoever, although they do need some tuning to get them to fit as they > should. The quality of the machining is probably not quite as good as the > Record originals. Just to clarify John's assertion, I suspect he means the "Original Record Stay Set" cap-irons, not the original (ordinary) Record cap-irons. For those that that don't know, the stay-set was a Record innovation (unless anyone says it was Preston?) BugBear ---- Start of Message 90291 ---- From: paul womack While I was playing (sorry testing) the planes she kept saying "which > ones do you want?" > with a wicked grin. ---- Start of Message 90293 ---- From: "vladimir spehar" -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Coyle [SMTP:ecoyle@c... > Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 2:33 AM > To: oldtools@w... > Subject: fretsaw stuff..... > > GG's..... > > Yer bizarre buddy, Cowtown Eric, was seen in the proximity of an antique > show today skulking off with a cardboard box under his arm. Rumour, > no...fact, is that it contained a Hobbies fretsaw kit. Saw, chromium metal > birdsmouth with the clamps, a Hobbies ruler, and a sh*t load of fretsaw > patterns, which when searched would reveal a coupla Hobbies catalogues. > .... > Whilst leafing through the old papers and tracings I remembered Patleaches > thread of "bagging the big paper" (that he shared with us before going off > to live on the top of the mountain) and got to feeling that what I was > experiencing was just a micro-buzz compared to that stuff. But a real buzz > none-the-less. The insight into depression era WW was well worth the price > of admission. > > Cowtown Eric ---- Start of Message 90295 ---- From: jimbono@w... (Jim Thompson) Date: 2001-02-26 06:40:00 Subject: Re: Re-Tinning Tinware Ah yes, the old tinning trick. First you need tinning compound, and I don't know where you are going to get it. My can was made by Dutch Boy about 20 years ago, but a recent trip to my local welding supply store turned up only ignorance. They had not heard of the product and could not find it in their catalog. Maybe you will have better luck. Tinning compound is applied to the base material using about a #0 steel wool while the base material is at soldering temperature. The base material must be scrupulously clean before application, and the temperature of the base material must not go high enough to blue it. The materil is really quite easy to apply as long as cleanliness and temperature are correct. If you succeed in finding a source of supply for Tinning Compound, please let us know. Jim Thompson ---- Start of Message 90296 ---- From: "Shannon Salb" If you succeed in finding a source of supply for Tinning Compound, > please let us know. Try a stained glass supply store-- You use tinning compound to get brass lamp caps to match the rest of the leadwork. ralph ---- Start of Message 90298 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Robert Nelson) Date: 2001-02-26 10:02:00 Subject: Re: Standard monkey wrench Hi Peter & All, Peter E. asked about a wrench with some partial markings. Those markings are complete enough to pretty surely be of the Girard Wrench Mfg. Co. of Girard, PA. They made a wrench with an 11 July 1882 patent and are known to have been working in 1902. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 90299 ---- From: "Todd and Betty Hughes" " I have some old (not antique but old) tinware that needs to have some > retinning done....." ------------------------------------------------------------------ I was at a blacksmith conference once and a fellow demonstrated re tinning a copper pot. He apparently does this work for big restaurants and he said it was very easy to do and appeared to be,[but now isn't that how it always is with these demos?]. he cleaned the pot and brightened it up with some fine sand paper,[said steel wool has oil in it and not to use it] then rubbed on some regular flux. heated the pan over the forge and took a piece of tin like you see all the time in bar form at the flea market and melted it in the pan, then swirled it around wiping it around also with a bunched up rag. That was it whole thing took maybe 5 min.[think he said he charges $10 a pot to do it]He pointed out that you can tell Tin from Lead if it is in bars by bending the bar by your ear and if it squeaks is Tin if not is Lead.I use tin in making pewter bolster knives and have used this test and it works.If you are doing a copper pot with dovetail joints I would be careful not to get it to hot to melt the solder out of the joints though I don't remember the fellow saying anything about this, old tin ware is probably safe to use with the tin worn off but you would have to be careful cooking with copper ware with worn tinning....Todd ---- Start of Message 90300 ---- From: "justin Kelly" If you succeed in finding a source of supply for Tinning Compound, >please let us know. Well, there's http://www.johnsonmfg.com/temp/tinning.htm Make sure you get the lead-free varieties. Kirk Hays Cedar Mills, Orygun Cruffler Galoot #1 ---- Start of Message 90302 ---- From: Steve Knight Good morning friends, > >I plan on making a Dt'ed infill and had a question. Is it a good idea to >laser cut the dovetails and hand file them smooth? Are there any advantages >or disadvantages to this? > >If you've never seen a laser at work it works like a gun, cut's beautifully >on the entrance and opens up a bit on the exit. Not that I've shot >anything. Any other suggestions for making these DTs? I would think as long as you get the wider part down it should be fine. a little undersize and file away. Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes +Galoot Made Products- Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions. ---- Start of Message 90303 ---- From: James Foster > rubbed on some regular flux. heated the pan over the forge and took a piece > of tin like you see all the time in bar form at the flea market and melted Uh, was sarcasm mode on here? B^) Or are you just going to a higher class of flea? B^) B^) I have a couple, but I didn't find 'em at a flea market or garage sale! > > it in the pan, then swirled it around wiping it around also with a bunched > up rag. That was it whole thing took maybe 5 min.[think he said he charges > $10 a pot to do it]He pointed out that you can tell Tin from Lead if it is > in bars by bending the bar by your ear and if it squeaks is Tin if not is > Lead.I use tin in making pewter bolster knives and have used this test and > it works. Yeah, it's a kinda weird sound. Feels a bit funny too, almost as if the metal is bending in short jerks with each one a squeak. Thanks for the info!! ---- Start of Message 90304 ---- From: "Ralph Brendler" -----Original Message----- > From: vladimir spehar [SMTP:vspehar@h... > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 8:30 AM > To: OLDTOOLS@w... > Subject: Laser cut DTs for infill > > Good morning friends, > > I plan on making a Dt'ed infill and had a question. Is it a good idea to > laser cut the dovetails and hand file them smooth? Are there any advantages > or disadvantages to this? > > If you've never seen a laser at work it works like a gun, cut's beautifully > on the entrance and opens up a bit on the exit. Not that I've shot > anything. Any other suggestions for making these DTs? > > Thank you. > > Vlad > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > -- ---- Start of Message 90306 ---- From: Jim Goddard Would anybody be able to spare the time to explain to me exactly how the > wooden wedge on these planes is held in place? If it just wedges, then how > do you ever drive it deeper to close the mouth? Or do you just plane a > little off the wedge then drive it deeper? You might want to check out Steve Knight's plane making tutorial (http://www.knight-toolworks.com/tour_page_1.htm). I'm not sure if his use of a wooden wedge in front of the mouth is the same mechanism you are referring to, but I've got a couple of his planes, and his method seems to work well. Chris -- Christopher S. Swingley 930 Koyukuk Drive System / Network Manager University of Alaska Fairbanks IARC -- Frontier Program Fairbanks, AK 99775 phone: 907-474-2689 fax: 907-474-2643 email: cswingle@i... GNUPG and PGP2 keys at my web site web: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle ---- Start of Message 90308 ---- From: James Foster Of course, in order to remain in keeping with proper Oldtools content, you would > have to use one of the original lasers. I would suggest contacting either the > Smithsonian or possibly Brookhaven Labs. Don't forget to wear your antique > smoked goggles too. > ---- Start of Message 90309 ---- From: "Thomas Graham" On Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:29:36 , you wrote: > > >Good morning friends, > > > >I plan on making a Dt'ed infill and had a question. Is it a good idea to > >laser cut the dovetails and hand file them smooth? Are there any advantages > >or disadvantages to this? > > > >If you've never seen a laser at work it works like a gun, cut's beautifully > >on the entrance and opens up a bit on the exit. Not that I've shot > >anything. Any other suggestions for making these DTs? > > I would think as long as you get the wider part down it should be fine. a little > undersize and file away. > > > > Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes +Galoot Made Products- > Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices > See http://www.knight-toolworks.com > For prices and ordering instructions. > > -- ---- Start of Message 90310 ---- From: "William K. Taggart" Where can I buy new saw nuts? No joke, I think they're called "sex bolts" > They don't have to match existing saws, but should be brass. Lie-Nielsn sells them. Definitely un-cheap though. Seems to me they are in the general vicinity of $5 each. /Tad ---- Start of Message 90312 ---- From: garyallan may Whilst perusing Keith Rucker's website mentioned on > a different mailing list > than this one http://pages.friendlycity.net/~krucker/Crescent/BandSaws/20BandSaws.htm > > And read the paragraph and view the picture right > under the title "1910 > Catalog" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---- Start of Message 90313 ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 2001-02-26 20:59:00 Subject: Re: Pedal power that Neanderbuddy! In a message dated 2/26/01 5:45:13 PM, garyallanmay@y... writes: << This is not a Trojan Horse. I realize that this tool and the book decribing it are not precisely "chartered" topics, but I truly am interested in the galoot-powered aproach, and have always been intrigued by the walking beam concept. >> Crescent made a pedal-powered b*nds*w, AKA "Neanderbuddy". See ... http://pages.friendlycity.net/~krucker/Crescent/BandSaws/index.htm ... Crescent was bought out by Willard Rockwell and subsequently most of the Crescent line was abandoned or sold. I own a 20" tool derived from a Crescent, but I have to admit that it's powered by one of Doerr's son's products. N.B. Lee Doerr had a son, and the son formed Leeson (Lee's Son), a major manufacturer of quality *l*ctr*c equipment. My 20" tools is indeed powered by one of Lee's son's products. ---- Start of Message 90314 ---- From: Art Mulder - There are as many list members from Oz (.au) as from the GWN (.ca)! I > didn't realize our Australian contingent was so large. (regarding 14 .ca and 14 .au subscribers) Though I have a .com email address, I can reassure you that I belong with the GWN crowd. I would suspect that there are few more Canuck's "hiding" out there, with @home, yahoo, aol, or some other .com address. Art Mulder ps: at least my web page is .ca... ---- Start of Message 90315 ---- From: Jaime Metcher but his appears a bit larger and more massive. Still, perhaps he'll share some thoughts on how his is performing. Art in London, Ontario ---- Start of Message 90317 ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" I noticed that Keith Rucker's bench is also built like that > but his appears >a bit larger and more massive. Still, perhaps he'll share some thoughts >on how his is performing. I have to admit that before I built this bench, I too was wondering how stable that bench base would be. I then had the chance to see first hand some other similar benches, including the one built by Bob Key (http://www.terraclavis.com/bws/benches.htm) at a Galoot get together last year. After trying Bob's out, I was amazed at how solid this base was. My base is really what I am considering a "temporary" base for right now. To be honest, by the time my workbench top was built, my pocketbook was pretty much tapped out. To save money, my base was built from Southern Yellow Pine and the joinery was a bit cruder than that that went into the bench top. Even with it's shortcomings, this base has proven to be extremely solid, way past my expectations. Bottom line, the base is more than adequate and I am confident that it would last a lifetime of hard work. I am planning on building a new base for my bench in the near future. Not because the one I have is not good enough but instead because I want one that has some storage space built into it (not to mention that I want a 'nicer' looking base as well). I am thinking on something like the shaker benches in "The Workbench Book". I also like the base built by Peter Berglund (http://www.users.qwest.net/~pberglund/Bench.html). I guess that when I actually get around to building my new base it will take ideas from both but be different none the less. When I do build this new base, I suspect that the basic structure will be very similar to what I have now, just fancier and with storage. Hope this helps, Keith Rucker Tifton, GA ---- Start of Message 90318 ---- From: jimbono@w... (Jim Thompson) Date: 2001-02-26 19:12:00 Subject: Tinning compound I received the following from: Johnsonmfg@a... We do sell Tin-Ezy Powder and Tin-Ezy Butter both with Pure Tin, as well as E-127 Flux-'N-Solder with Pure Tin; pricing is as follows: TEP - 1# $7.55, 3# $20.70, 12# $68.65 TEB - 1# $7.35, 4# $19.85, 15# $65.45 FNS - 1# $16.05, 4# $60.00 FOB Princeton, Iowa How may we be of service? Sincerely, F Larry LePrevost You should be able to do several pans with one pound. Jim Thompson ---- Start of Message 90319 ---- From: Roger Van Maren I was struck by how small the base is on the Fortune bench. I'm used >to seeing the tail vise section stick out past the base/legs. However >on this bench the front vise section of the bench also protrudes past >the left of the base. I can't help thinking this would be a bit >unstable. The base >is only a bit more than 3' wide. I would like to hear from anyone who >has >a bit more experience with such a bench. ---- Start of Message 90320 ---- From: Phil and Debbie Koontz > Hi All, > > I'm thinking of buying an Anke workbench (see below for why I'm not building one). It's the only European style bench I've found available to buy locally. Does anyone have any comments/experience with their stuff? > Who wants those cruddy old Euopean timbers, when you can have wonderful Aussie timbers? (come on Nuno, show a little patritism - why am I telling the man this stuff; that's yo' job!) http://www.workbenchworld.com.au/index.htm BugBear ---- Start of Message 90322 ---- From: paul womack <> > > Anyhow, take a gander at: > > http://pages.friendlycity.net/~krucker/Crescent/BandSaws/20BandSaws.htm > > And read the paragraph and view the picture right under the title "1910 > Catalog" > > So let's see one of these in the shop, right next to the Barnes hand-cranked > ripsaw!! The self sufficiency types are on to this one. Mind you, it would appear that to go the subsistence route, you need a lot of cash ?! http://www.jademountain.com/appliances/alttools.html BugBear ---- Start of Message 90323 ---- From: "Nuno Souto" > I'm thinking of buying an Anke workbench (see below for why I'm not building one). It's the only European style bench I've found available to buy locally. Does anyone have any comments/experience with their stuff? > > > > Who wants those cruddy old Euopean timbers, when you can have wonderful > Aussie timbers? > (come on Nuno, show a little patritism - why am I telling the man this > stuff; that's yo' job!) > > http://www.workbenchworld.com.au/index.htm > ---- Start of Message 90324 ---- From: "Keith S. Rucker" This thread comes to me as an echo of a long lost dream where I planned >to build just such a machine, and I still hope that something will come >of it in due course. It seems to me to be well within the charter and >intent of the group, BTW, which allows both hand made and muscle powered >tools. There is not doubt that this post was within the charter. Why if you read the charter (and everybody should), it clearly states that in addition to the "emphasis is on muscle-powered tools and techniques" that tools powered "though water-powered machinery (whether steam, or mill pond) are more than welcome". Why, in 1910 when the first catalog on this site was published, the only choices were treadle power and a tight/loose pulley, which would have by all means been powered by either a steam engine or water wheel - either way it falls within the charter. I started to post this link here when I finished the web-page page but decided against it. Thanks to Bill Taggart for being braver than I. I have gotten in trouble with this point in the past here so I won't drive it too hard. Guess that is why I also take part in that other list on Old Woodworking Machines.... >What brought me online is that someone mentioned the surprisingly large size of the >treadle bandsaw. Because why? Because I went through a pretty detailed >design exercise for a treadle saw, and came up with about the same >dimensions. I think that a smaller one would be pointless and >inefficient. It is also interesting to point out that a 20 inch band saw was the smallest size ever produced by Crescent. This size was considered to be a *light duty* model. Kind of funny when you consider that in today's market, a 20 inch, made from cast iron band-saw would be considered a monster of a machine! If you look over to my page on the larger band-saws (http://pages.friendlycity.net/~krucker/Crescent/BandSaws/26-38BandSaws.htm) you will see that Crescent also offered a treadle option on their even larger 26-inch band saw (unfortunately, I have not found a picture of this arrangement but would assume it looked similar to the 20" model.) >In a way, a bandsaw would be a lot easier to build than a treadle lathe >because you don't need that tricky belt/rope drive. The top wheel would >probably be laminated flat stock, with the bottom wheel similar but built >extra heavy to maximize the rotational inertia.The tracking and tension >control on the top wheel would be kinda complicated but not too bad, >based mainly on bolts and jam nuts. Personally, I think it's well within >the scope of an enterprising galoot. If you ever get around to building this, please share it with the group. By the way, I have not mentioned it in a while but I also have plans for a treadle lathe reprinted from an article in the early 1900's on my site at: http://pages.friendlycity.net/~krucker/BoysLathe/index.htm. Keith Rucker Tifton, GA ---- Start of Message 90325 ---- From: "Paul Pflumm" -----Original Message----- > From: William K. Taggart [SMTP:ILikeRust@w... > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 6:08 PM > To: Oldtools Listserv (E-mail) > Subject: Pedal power that Neanderbuddy! > > Whilst perusing Keith Rucker's website mentioned on a different mailing list > than this one (having to do with older tailed monsters, and shall remain > nameless here), I .... > Anyhow, take a gander at: > > http://pages.friendlycity.net/~krucker/Crescent/BandSaws/20BandSaws.htm > > And read the paragraph and view the picture right under the title "1910 > Catalog" > > So let's see one of these in the shop, right next to the Barnes hand-cranked > ripsaw!! > > - Bill Taggart > - On the road and tired just thinking about it, in Chicago, IL > ---- Start of Message 90327 ---- From: Daniel Indrigo -- ACE Java Licensee Engineering - There are as many list members from Oz (.au) as from the GWN (.ca)! I > didn't realize our Australian contingent was so large. > I was sort of keeping track of this for a while based on the bio's that came across and the people I new and there are more like 40 canucks on the list, perhaps we could to take a poll to determine global galoot distribution? Dan Ajax, Ontario, Canada ---- Start of Message 90328 ---- From: "John J Black" Where can I buy new saw nuts? No joke, I think they're called "sex bolts" >They don't have to match existing saws, but should be brass. >Adam ---- Start of Message 90331 ---- From: "justin Kelly" > You might want to check out Steve Knight's plane making tutorial > (http://www.knight-toolworks.com/tour_page_1.htm). I'm not sure > if his use of a wooden wedge in front of the mouth is the same > mechanism you are referring to, but I've got a couple of his planes, > and his method seems to work well. > Thank you very much Chris, I hadn't seen Steve's tutorial before. Very interesting. The plane in the tutorial is made in parts then glued together, so he is able to fit threaded inserts to the nose section to hold the throat adjuster before he assembles it. As I have made my plane in one piece, I can't get a drill into the throat to fit any screws or anything to hold the wedge. Am still looking out for info on how the one piece woodies had their throat wedges held. Thank you again for pointing me in the direction of Steve's site. Justin Kelly ---- Start of Message 90332 ---- From: Steve Knight Thank you very much Chris, I hadn't seen Steve's tutorial before. Very >interesting. The plane in the tutorial is made in parts then glued together, >so he is able to fit threaded inserts to the nose section to hold the throat >adjuster before he assembles it. As I have made my plane in one piece, I >can't get a drill into the throat to fit any screws or anything to hold the >wedge. Am still looking out for info on how the one piece woodies had their >throat wedges held. > you use sliding dovetails to hold it in place. this is how it was done on the japanese planes. I thought of doing it but was afraid I would not be able to do it well. Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes +Galoot Made Products- Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions. ---- Start of Message 90333 ---- From: "Bretton Wade" wedge. Am still looking out for info on how the one piece woodies had > their > throat wedges held. The only western style plane I have seen that had an adjustable throat used a sliding dovetail. ---- Start of Message 90334 ---- From: Louis Michaud Am still looking out for info on how the one piece woodies had > their throat wedges held... Do you mean a sliding plate like a 60 1/2 to regulate the size of the mouth, or a vertical wedge like a British wooden mitre plane that compensates for wear? Louis Michaud ---- Start of Message 90335 ---- From: "Phil Bassett" Hello GG's, > >Can any one let me know of a good source for information on Norris Planes, _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---- Start of Message 90336 ---- From: "YARROW, GARY" > wedge. Am still looking out for info on how the one piece > woodies had > > their > > throat wedges held. > > The only western style plane I have seen that had an adjustable throat > used a sliding dovetail. ---- Start of Message 90337 ---- From: Steve Sullivan Who wants those cruddy old Euopean timbers, when you can have wonderful > Aussie timbers? I have two workbenches, one inside and one on the back verandah (porch, Jeff). Both have jarrah (red WA hardwood, Jeff) framework. The bench inside the shed also has a jarrah top, whilst the one on the verandah is topped with wide red gum planks. Both will last longer than I will. The only "problem" I have at present is to be able get access to the shed bench as it is totally covered with recent acquisitions including another 13 woodies and 1 @ SW era #45 with cutters that I picked up yesterday in my second "ride-by" for the week. Regards, -- Steve Adelaide, Australia ---- Start of Message 90338 ---- From: "peter evans" Sorry, been busy and haven't followed some of the > discussions, but I agree 100%. Why bother with > those Anke things in a country blessed with some > of the best woods in the world? > > The link shown below has some of the best and the prices > are not that much outside of what Anke asks. I prefer > a lighter colour top, and I'm told they will oblige. > That's if DIY is not an option. As for pure European > design, that can be found as well. > > Cheers > Nuno Souto > nsouto@n... > http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "paul womack" > > I'm thinking of buying an Anke workbench (see below for why I'm > not building one). It's the only European style bench I've found > available to buy locally. Does anyone have any comments/experience > with their stuff? > > > > > > > Who wants those cruddy old Euopean timbers, when you can have > wonderful > > Aussie timbers? > > (come on Nuno, show a little patritism - why am I telling the man > this > > stuff; that's yo' job!) > > > > http://www.workbenchworld.com.au/index.htm > > > > > -- ---- Start of Message 90339 ---- From: "Frank Jordan" GGs > > Earlier threads had suggested how Simichrome was the best for cleaning > nickeled surfaces and keeping them neat. Also suggested hard to find, > arm and a leg etc. > > I found some at the local Restoration Hardware (YB mall decorating store > Jeff) for $6 for a 1.75g tube. > ---- Start of Message 90340 ---- From: Derek Berwald "Atlotta says the orange shellac has an indefinite shelf life if > a skim coat of alcohol is poured over the top and the jar is tightly > sealed." Once mixed, shellac begins to transmogrify by a process called esterification and that's what makes old shellac reluctant to dry. It also compromises it's water resistance. Freshly made shellac will dry hard quickly and is remarkably water resistant (but you all know that, eh?) I think the above statement is from a time when shellac was at it's ebb of popularity and little factual information was available (and we didn't have Google to get more info than we need on any one of a billion subjects.) -- Ron Hock (ron@h... HOCK TOOLS -- http://www.hocktools.com 16650 Mitchell Creek Drive Fort Bragg, CA 95437 (707)964-2782 toll free: (888)28-BLADE [282-5233] fax (707)964-7816 ---- Start of Message 90344 ---- From: "Gary Halstead" And a more historical question: Shellac seems to come from Asia. > When did it come into common use in the European tradition? I'm > guessing after contact with Europeans, but I'm not sure when that > is. Marco Polo would mean the late 1200s, but I guess that's > China. I think Paddy gets his shellac from India, and contact > with India may have been sooner. Does anyone know? What finishes, > if any, were in common use before shellac? Shellac seems to have been commonly used in Europe sometime in the 17th Century. The first English source on finishing (Stalker & Parker, 1680) mentions it although the word doesn't appear in English until 1713 (according to the online Merriam-Webster's). Europe was trading with India long before that of course, but I suspect the transportation costs had to drop a lot before merchants could afford to carry less valuable cargoes like shellac, tea, and cotton (instead of silks, spices, and gems). What was used before that? We really don't know. Most craftsmen were illiterate and finishing techniques probably came under the category of trade secrets. Salzman (Building in England down to 1540) points out that there are some references that seem to indicate the use of varnish for woodwork. Paint was available and widely used. We don't have any proof of it, but some version of beeswax/linseed oil/turpentine seems pretty likely to me. Sam Allen's book _Classic Finishing Techniques_ has some good information on 17th and 18th Century techniques along with a few excerpts from Stalker & Parker. Gary R. Halstead www.medievalwoodworking.com ---- Start of Message 90345 ---- From: Jaime Metcher From: Roger Van Maren > Since I took the pictures, I've added a set of drawers underneath and > loaded it down with a hundred pounds or so of tools. It really won't move > now. > Oooh, oooh, this is good. Now I can tell SWMBO tools need to be justified by weight and not cost. Yep need 65 more pounds of tools to make that bench safe, honey. Wouldn't want any accidents now would we? See here, I got an engineering analysis to prove it. Regards, Steve - wondering how many #1's it will take to reach that 65 lbs. ---- Start of Message 90347 ---- From: "Frank Filippone" My (5' x 2' top) bench base is narrow. I can easily push it over > sideways. ... > End-to-End it would require more leverage than I can generate to move > it, even thought the feet are only 4 feet apart. I can make it skid if I > (really) try, ... ---- Start of Message 90351 ---- From: garyallan may Does anyone have opinions on the current ones being sold? A >cruise on the web shows Barton, Phiel, Moor, and another brand >generally identified as "German carving knives". Any of these better >than the others? In general, I would appreciate any discussion of the >knives used for carving. I find a Schrade Old Timer works the best for me...available at any good sporting goods shop..or for that matter most department stores with a sports department. Good steel and there is very little I can't carve with it. Our Scoutmaster (who is about 10 times better a carver than I am) uses one of those curved blade "linesman" knives. Tony ---- Start of Message 90353 ---- From: Steve Sullivan Does anyone have opinions on the current ones being sold? A > cruise on the web shows Barton, Phiel, Moor, and another brand > generally identified as "German carving knives". Any of these better > than the others? In general, I would appreciate any discussion of the > knives used for carving. What do you want to carve? If you want to whittle and generally mess around I recommend getting a simple clip blade whittling knife or a chip carving knife that most looks like the whittlers style. Buy pfeil or flexsteel, all others are second best. Clarke Green ______________________________________________ C. A. Green Woodworking - Kennett Square, Pennsylvania ---- Start of Message 90355 ---- From: Tom Johnson > > Does anyone have opinions on the current ones being sold? A > > cruise on the web shows Barton, Phiel, Moor, and another brand > > generally identified as "German carving knives". Any of these better > > than the others? In general, I would appreciate any discussion of the > > knives used for carving. > > What do you want to carve? > > If you want to whittle and generally mess around I recommend getting a > simple clip blade whittling knife or a chip carving knife that most looks > like the whittlers style. > > Buy pfeil or flexsteel, all others are second best. I've heard good reports of Frost - never seen or used one though. http://www.frosts.se/index_2_uk.html BugBear ---- Start of Message 90360 ---- From: paul womack > Yessir GG's...... they just don't get any rarer than this...you'll > never see another one > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1114738481 > > WOWZER.....yep WOWZER I think Todd would have been ineterested in that; IIRC he likes "put togther"/repaired tools, and also likes tools made from files. BugBear ---- Start of Message 90361 ---- From: paul womack > As I sit here in Southern California listening to the rain on my roof > for the fourth consecutive day without letup, it occurs to me that I > should inform the Galooterati about my latest project. > > There was some discussion a while back in this forum about making a bow > saw with a radius at the mortice and tenon joint so that there would be > less likelihood of compromising the flatness of the shoulders of the > joint when tensioning the blade. ( I think that is the right way to > explain it.) > So I decided that this time I would make that radiused joint. Big > mistake! In the first place, it is a genune PITA to make that joint and > have it be right. All four shoulders of the radius have to bear equally > together with no leaning to either side. That definitely takes a little > time to accomplish. But it can be done. > Having completed the task, I assembled the bow saw and saw that it wants > to rack in the forward and reverse direction as you are sawing. I > tensioned the blade as tight as I dared, and maybe friction in the joint > will keep it from moving, but I have my doubts. My considered opinion > is that this is why you never see one made this way. > As somebody once said, "It seemed like a good idea at the time." On the few saws I've seen with this feature only one of the joints is radiused. BugBear ---- Start of Message 90362 ---- From: Tony Blanks Feel free to offline any questions to any or both of us. Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@n... http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den ----- Original Message ----- > predjudices, and pig-headed mistakes. Perhaps the next one will be closer > to perfect? > ---- Start of Message 90364 ---- From: Tom Thornton http://email.crawler.com ---- Start of Message 90366 ---- From: Keith Mealy Does anyone have opinions on the current ones being sold? BugBear responded: I've heard good reports of Frost - never seen or used one though. http://www.frosts.se/index_2_uk.html ===== Keith Mealy END __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---- Start of Message 90367 ---- From: Robert Arthur In the past few days I have gotten an interest in carving knives. >Searching the Oldtools archive as well as some other online venues >shows a real paucity of information on carving knives. It occurs to >me that I don't see them at the flea market or antique dealers. >What's the deal with that? Is there some history of when knives were >used for carving as opposed to chisels? Are chip carving knives >(evidently these are different from bench carving knives?) a >relatively recent thing? > > Does anyone have opinions on the current ones being sold? A >cruise on the web shows Barton, Phiel, Moor, and another brand >generally identified as "German carving knives". Any of these better >than the others? In general, I would appreciate any discussion of the >knives used for carving. > >Regards, >Steve - thinking there has to be at least one person out there with a >jones for carving knives. ---- Start of Message 90368 ---- From: "Generations Furniture" I've got a set (large chip, small chip and stab) of the Moor knives a while >back. They're nice knives, but I'm not entirely happy with the >handles. If I were doing it again I would probably go to Woodcraft and >handle a few different brands to see how they feel. Kinda like any >tool. You have to be comfortable with the feel or they sit unused. > >Rob >Dumfries, VA For those interested in chip carving in the traditional swiss style, www.chipcarving.com (Wayne Barton), definately will be of interest. The premium cutting and stab knives sold by Wayne Barton are a little expensive, but the handles are excellent, the blades takes - and holds - the edge well, and those factors are really important. (This far I have only been "carcing for the woodstove", but when I grow up...) Ivar Moan ---- Start of Message 90372 ---- From: jimbono@w... (Jim Thompson) Date: 2001-02-28 07:14:00 Subject: Re: Bow saws BugBear answered my whining: Yes! This makes perfect sense now that I have done it this way. I forgot to mention that the radiused joint is not as attractive as a non-radiused joint because the mortice is visible on each side. This is caused by the tenon having to move thru an arc. There has to be clearance in the mortice to allow this. Now that I have had this revelation from BugBear, I will make another bow saw using one of the arms from this one, and I will wind up with two bow saws which each have one radiused joint. Jim Thompson ---- Start of Message 90373 ---- From: "Joseph Baron" Trojan horse question: Does anyone know if the slop >can be taken out of pocket knives blades that wobble >when open and in the working position? Pocket knives generally have a riveted joint holding the blade. If it wobbles, it can be tightened by careful peening of the rivet. In some knives, the rivet comes right through the handles (slips? grips? whatever the bone, horn, plastic, wood, or leather side pieces are called), and is easily peened. It might actually be riveted through a polished metal bolster -- the rivet can be hard to see, but it's there. In others, the blade rivet is hidden under the slips, which may themselves be riveted on, so the main blade rivet takes some work to get at... It's very hard to imagine not carrying a pocketknife -- it is the one handtool that is always there. I used to carry a three-blade Schrade, but now I carry a small Buck single-blade lockback. Been tightened up once or twice already. Leather handles long gone... I like the style and size, but none of the knives I have had have held a good enough edge for me, so I'm still looking for the perfect pocketknife. Regards, Joe _______________________________________________________ Joseph G. Baron Raleigh, NC ---- Start of Message 90374 ---- From: Roger Birkhead >> "Roberts, Gary R" >> Morning all Does anyone know of a patent dated February 3, 1891 that relates to a metallic bench plane? It could be for an adjustment mechanism. I've looked but couldn't find the information. Any ideas? Thanks Gary ---- Start of Message 90380 ---- From: Louis Michaud "tenon saw"...define the shoulder in a tenon joint. >Since the saw has a "self regulating" feature that allows a >accurate depth of cut...I've never seen reference to a tenon >saw like this ... While not the same design as a stairsaw but with self regulating features a rabbet saw with a crosscut blade works very well for tenons wider than about 1 1/2 or 2". http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Shores/8907/tools/dovtprsaw.jpg Set the depth of the cheek with the blade, and the lenght of the tenon with the fence. With small tenons (< 1 1/2") it kind of gets wobly if you're not paying attention, but can be made to work. Murland Tools had a "Cabinet makers" saw very similar in design except the angle of the shot did not allow to see if there was a handle. The French used a similar saw with no handle and a deeper fence to cut tenons. While on the subject of tenons, the French also used a "scie a arasement" = shouldering saw to be used with a mitre-jack to cut tenons. It seemed so efficient and fast: clamp the workpiece in the jack and just saw all around, that I made one. A 12" length of blade screwed under a lenght of stair rail molding. I have a picture of one that I can send to curious Galoots. Made a mitre jack with a wooden screw recycled from a broken clamp. Still working on adjusting the jaws to a perfect 90 and 45 degrees... Large surfaces of endgrain = blisters + sweat + dull blades + patience... Best, Louis Michaud ---- Start of Message 90381 ---- From: Scott Murman From the likes of this list, I'm guessing someone out there has tried making it themselves, but I'm looking for a simpler route. -SM- Redwood City, CA ---- Start of Message 90382 ---- From: garyallan may For planes with a movable front portion, as in the #18 block I have, > is it better to lap the sole with the fore portion in place, or the > aft and fore soles separately? I'm leaning towards the latter, but > that probably just means the former is a better idea. I have always done this with the adjustable piece in place. Doing it separately would just increase the chances of the resulting plane not being coplanar. In other words, you might end up with the area in front of the mouth having more or less material removed than the rest of the plane, when what you really want is to have the entire sole (or at least the critical toe, mouth, and heel points) lie in the same plane. -Ken Ken Greenberg IT #321; Blue Galoot #82 400 Los Gatos Blvd., Los Gatos, CA 95032 http://www.calast.com/ken/Personal/wood.htm ---- Start of Message 90384 ---- From: "C. McArdle" I've got one scrap for now, but where's a good place to get >nice pieces of glass? I'd prefer a source that is essentially free is >possible. chris cmca@c... "First we shape our tools. Thereafter, they shape us." -- Marshall McLuhan ---- Start of Message 90385 ---- From: Tom Thornton > Greetings, slowly coming up to speed on the process of transforming my > rusty derelicts to liquid-smooth cutting tools. Couple of quickies. > > For planes with a movable front portion, as in the #18 block I have, > is it better to lap the sole with the fore portion in place, or the > aft and fore soles separately? I'm leaning towards the latter, but > that probably just means the former is a better idea. > > Gonna try the scary sharp route at first (on some cheap taiwanese > stuff). I've got one scrap for now, but where's a good place to get > nice pieces of glass? I'd prefer a source that is essentially free is > possible. Do you just hang around glass shops and look destitute? > >From the likes of this list, I'm guessing someone out there has tried > making it themselves, but I'm looking for a simpler route. > > -SM- > Redwood City, CA > > > > -- ---- Start of Message 90387 ---- From: Art Mulder > top on. I am also vaguely aware that Grizzly has bench tops already > fabricated and ready to plop on your base. This would take all the work > and worry out of a bench. Grizzly doesn't ship to Canada. However I can find a comparably (or better) priced maple top at Lee Valley for CAN$270 (24x60). I've looked at them in the local store, and noticed that they were made with finger-jointed wood. The environmentalist in me thinks that is an admirable way to conserve lumber. However I have to confess that if I'm going for a solid wood top, I'd rather not have finger joints in there! Is that silly? It's pure esthetics I know. Lee Valley however does not carry a very wide selection in benchtop sizes, compared to Grizzly. However, the other Canadians on oldtools can check out who appear to carry the same type of benchtops and bases that I saw on the grizzly web site. However I've never seen these up close, just noticed them in their catalog. (their web site is not the easiest to navigate, do a search for "maple") Hope someone finds this of interest Regards ...art ---- Start of Message 90388 ---- From: geoffrey kimbrough Now the question is: Wood-ruff, roe, row (as in > how), rock, rup, roff or roo? Geoffrey Kimbrough -- dances with sawdust ---- Start of Message 90389 ---- From: "YARROW, GARY" Oddly enough, the only stainless steel I really like in a > commercial pocket knife is the ordinary Victorinox, Swiss > army knife. I know I'm getting a little far afield from chip knives, but ... The only stainless steel knife that I have that I consider worth a hoot is an Opinel. I know, I know, everybody knows they're carbon steel with a pear wood handle. But - they make a stainless version, with a bubinga handle. I was given one of these long ago, and never really used it. I sort of disdained it - and it just sat in a drawer. Then I went on a sheep hunt. I took my Victorinox (I always do). I looked around for a backup knife, and finally selected the Opinel, mainly because it was light. Lightness is a major consideration when you go on a solo Dall sheep hunt. I honed both knives until I could shave with them. Not that I shave when sheep hunting. Well, on my eighth day out, after hiking probably 60 or 80 miles in sheep terrain, I got my sheep. That's when the work started! After just a bit of skinning and butchering, the Victorinox was just plain dull, so I turned to the Opinel. I finished the job with the Opinel, and I never had to stop and hone. That knife definitely raised my eyebrows. Now I don't know much about stainless knives, but IMO the Opinel is one that will take and hold an edge quite well. That knife is definitely my favorite now. - Eric B. (in Fairbanks, Alaska - remembering what it feels like to open a cool bottel of stout after packing a sheep twenty miles back to the road ... it don't get much better) ---- Start of Message 90392 ---- From: "Stephan Patnaude" - Eric B. (in Fairbanks, Alaska - remembering what it feels > like to open a cool bottel of stout after packing a sheep > twenty miles back to the road ... it don't get much better) Sort of like opening a cool bottle of stout after humping a couple of free Emmerts out of a basement and into your bubba-mobile. Just guessing here...... ---- Start of Message 90393 ---- From: "Bretton Wade" Scott wrote: >> Oddly enough, the only stainless steel I really like in a >> commercial pocket knife is the ordinary Victorinox, Swiss >> army knife. The problem with the SAKs, though, is that the blades don't lock. Maybe there are different models; and maybe they've changed over the years. But on mine, which I've had for about 12yrs, "experience" (read: DAMHIKT!) has shown that it can be darn dangerous to carve with. N ---- Start of Message 90397 ---- From: Jaime Metcher Greetings, > Has anyone experimented with putting a small bevel on the back side of a >plane blade, effectively steepening the cutting angle from 45 deg to...say 55 >deg, to make the plane handle hard, ornery wood? I assume this would open the >mouth a bit, but perhaps the trade-off may be worth it. Just wondering if any >of you have tried it and would share your thoughts on this. Hope I'm not >covering old well-worn territory here. >Thank you. >Wayne Anderson ---- Start of Message 90398 ---- From: Steve Knight Greetings, > Has anyone experimented with putting a small bevel on the back side of a >plane blade, effectively steepening the cutting angle from 45 deg to...say 55 >deg, to make the plane handle hard, ornery wood? I assume this would open the >mouth a bit, but perhaps the trade-off may be worth it. Just wondering if any >of you have tried it and would share your thoughts on this. Hope I'm not >covering old well-worn territory here. I have not tried it yet. but I doubt it will work the same. I am learning that things don't work out like the math says they do when it comes to planes. Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes +Galoot Made Products- Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions. ---- Start of Message 90399 ---- From: Steve Knight > Well all the recent discussion about Kelly axes and the axes I have picked up > recently which need handles got me to thinking. > > Does anydody know where/if you can still find the "flattened" octagonal axe > handles. I have seen a few, and just picked up a double bit with this style > handle. Also does it seem to anyone else that many handles today are too > small to fit in the eye of many old axeheads? This is a particular problem with "Kent" pattern heads. The eyes are long and narrow compared with "American" and "Canada" pattern axes. Which is what the modern handles are made for. Solution? Either add "patch pieces" to a purchased handle, or cut 'n' carve your own. Bugbear ---- Start of Message 90401 ---- From: paul womack > Greetings, slowly coming up to speed on the process of transforming my > rusty derelicts to liquid-smooth cutting tools. Couple of quickies. > > For planes with a movable front portion, as in the #18 block I have, > is it better to lap the sole with the fore portion in place, or the > aft and fore soles separately? I'm leaning towards the latter, but > that probably just means the former is a better idea. Since the 2 pieces (sole and slidy mouth) must be colinear, in situ lapping seems the best route. In theory, if you can't lap parallel, the sliding piece could become wedge shaped (although still colinear). This would cause alignment issues when you adjust the mouth away from the position it was in when you lapped it. The solution is to be careful, and remove as little material as possible. > > Gonna try the scary sharp route at first (on some cheap taiwanese > stuff). I've got one scrap for now, but where's a good place to get > nice pieces of glass? I'd prefer a source that is essentially free is > possible. Do you just hang around glass shops and look destitute? Yep. BugBear ---- Start of Message 90402 ---- From: paul womack > Any glass window type outfit that sells plate glass will sell you a slab o > scrap cheap, scrap to them is perfect to you. I have a 48" x 12" x 3/4" > with the corners broken (as in smoothed, rounded) I got for less than $10. The edges of glass can easily be rounded. Carborundum stones or SiC paper will both abrade glass quite rapidly. So if the glazier wants to charge for rounding, take it "sharp". BugBear ---- Start of Message 90403 ---- From: "Nuno Souto" ... As I have made my plane in one piece, I >can't get a drill into the throat to fit any screws or anything to hold the >wedge. Am still looking out for info on how the one piece woodies had their >throat wedges held. Going back to Justin's original question: >>I am in the process of making a wooden smoother. Have finished everything >>except I would like to add an adjuster to the mouth so that it can be closed >>up as the base wears. I have come up with lots of ideas but I would like to >>make it the way some of the old wooden mitre planes were made. The British wooden stock mitre planes Justin refers to have lower bedding angles and bevel up irons in contrast to their American counterparts. I believe the boxwood wear blocks were incorporated into these planes for two reasons. The obvious one, of course, was to counteract the somewhat more intense abrasion encountered in their intended use. Also, it allowed the planemakers to avoid having to work with the otherwise very narrow mouths which this configuration calls for. While I haven't had the opportunity to examine any of these British mitre planes in person, I believe the boxwood blocks were not wedges at all. Rather, they were rectangular blocks and were inserted down through the plane stock by means of a rectangular mortise. John Whelan has a drawing of this in _The Wooden Plane_, p. 65. According to Goodman's _British Planemakers from 1700_, these boxwood blocks were set at a slight rear- ward angle (off vertical), presenting end grain boxwood at the point of most intense wear just ahead of the iron. Apparently, many of these blocks were held in place by virtue of a friction fit in the mortise. However, I have also seen photographic examples which show set screws inserted through slots in both cheeks of the plane stock. Hope this helps. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 90405 ---- From: Howard Lau ... I'm pretty much a bottom feeder and have recently > been collecting Buck Bros edge tools. ---- Start of Message 90407 ---- From: "Dave Harris" I finished up my skewed planemaking floats the other night and put some > pictures up: > > http://members.home.net/sepost/skew_floats.html > > I ---- Start of Message 90409 ---- From: Scott Post James Foster wrote: > > A question though: You have a set of Clark and > Williams floats linked to this page, and it has two skewed floats > in it. What need do the two new ones fill that the others didn't? When I got those they only had a set of skews available in 1/8" thickness. Those work fine for narrow molding plane mortices, but 3/16" is better for skewed bench plane type escapements and wider molders. > Also, would the C&W contents be considered, in general, a complete > set for making most common planes? I'm sure Larry has more floats than Paddy has #5's, but an occasional planemaker like me can get by fine with that set. In fact, if you're on a budget and you don't plan to make skewed planes right away you could probably get by with only two: the side float and an edge float. You could use the side float for doing bench plane beds. The bed float is really a luxury. Larry would be better able to comment on what he feels is necessary. -- Scott Post sepost@h... http://members.home.net/sepost ---- Start of Message 90410 ---- From: Kirk Eppler Gonna try the scary sharp route at first (on some cheap taiwanese > stuff). I've got one scrap for now, but where's a good place to get > nice pieces of glass? I'd prefer a source that is essentially free is > possible. Do you just hang around glass shops and look destitute? > >From the likes of this list, I'm guessing someone out there has tried > making it themselves, but I'm looking for a simpler route. > > -SM- > Redwood City, CA > Kirk Eppler in HMB, CA (650) 225-3911 Eppler.Kirk@g... ---- Start of Message 90411 ---- From: wright@k... Date: 2001-03-01 17:22:00 Subject: Re: Patent Information Need help in getting to the site(s) that describes patents - given thepatent number. Been looking through all my bookmarks and old mail,and I guess I hid it/them pretty good.OT content: Picked up an old plane that has "U.S. Patent No.1914609"cast in the cap, and I'd like to find out more about it.Actually, I'd also like to recover the other patent sites too. Hi Jack in Endwell, the USPTO web site has a searchable database for the public: http://www.uspto.gov Hope this helps. Dirk Wright ---- Start of Message 90412 ---- From: "Brent Beach" Greetings, > Has anyone experimented with putting a small bevel on the back side of a > plane blade, effectively steepening the cutting angle from 45 deg to...say 55 > deg, to make the plane handle hard, ornery wood? I assume this would open the > mouth a bit, but perhaps the trade-off may be worth it. Just wondering if any > of you have tried it and would share your thoughts on this. Hope I'm not > covering old well-worn territory here. > Thank you. > Wayne Anderson > ---- Start of Message 90413 ---- From: "Palazzolo, Joe" Speakin' of which -- if any of you are aware of good sources of info on old > Buck Bros. tools on the web, I'd greatly appreciate seeing a link. GG Especially a time line on the logo, the handle shapes for various sizes and era's. Ed Minch ---- Start of Message 90415 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" From Jeff-- > For the purposes of sharpening, any reasonably flat smooth support is > suitable. Since the coating of the abrasive is not uniform, there is > little point in seeking a dead-flat surface on its support. Yeah, I was gonna say the same thing. In fact, I have been doing my subsistence sharpening on 220 SiC laid on any old flat board. A or B grade plywood works fine, as does the end of my saw till, which is sometimes the only free surface left in my work shop. I go directly from the 220 to green crayon smeared on a piece of hardwood, or to my nice new leather honing set from Keith DeGrau (beep). Those multiple grades of fine SS paper all got displaced when I started using the CrO2. As to where to get plate glass, if you really think you need it, just wander out in the back yard and pull a window out of one of the junk pickups. Anything prior to about 1954 was pretty good flat safety glass, and it works fine. Phil Koontz Who actually doesn't have the luxury of junk pickups in the back yard any more. ---- Start of Message 90417 ---- From: Paul Fuss Well, I found a really cool looking stairsaw on one of our favorite tool > pusher's web site and have recently finished my version of it. Check it out > at http://128.186.187.251/Stairsaw.htm It's different to use than a more > standard stairsaw that has a saw tote. I set this one up to cut on the pull > stroke. It's kinda like using a Japanese style saw. I've had some ongoing conversations with Brian about toolmaking, which eventually led to my talking him into making me a stair saw and (coping) bowsaw. Brian has pictures of these two saws as well on his main tool page (follow the link at the bottom of the page above). Well, when they arrived, there was a bonus -- a third saw identical to his latest one. While I could go on and on about how beautiful and sexy they are, that should be thoroughly evident from the pictures. So instead here are a few comments on their functionality: First the stair saws. I had wanted one with a rip blade, which probably sounds a bit odd; the reason being that it would be used for something other than dadoes. I make a lot of picture frames out of short or thin scraps of wood, and it is often rather awkward to use a fenced rabbet plane. Now I can scribe a line with a cutting gauge, chuck the wood in the vise, and saw away. The scribed line is sufficient to guide the cut. The blade depth is adjustable and the saw's body acts as a depth stop. These saws have two distinct advantages for me: first, it's a faster and easier way to cut rabbets in many hardwoods than planing is, and second, I don't have to worry about clearance for a fence. Brian made both of my stairsaws (one a traditional style, out of Kingswood, and the other, which kind of resembles a coachmaker's rabbet plane body, out of birdseye maple) with a ryoba blade. What this means is that both of these saws now have interchangeable crosscut and rip blades, which to my mind is a really great feature. Thin kerf, and sharp! I love having japanese blades with western style handles -- they're just sooo comfortable... I had considered making a rabbet saw based on Louis Michaud's design, which I'm still intrigued by, but now I really don't have to. Of the stair saws that Brian made for me, I can't say that I like one better than the other, and so I'm just glad to have them both. I'll probably leave one set up with the rip blade, and the other with the crosscut. Then there's the bowsaw. This uses a standard coping saw blade, so it's cheap and easy to replace when necessary, and there are no awkward pins or bent nails or whatever sticking through holding the blade. The bowsaw design IMO is superior to the normal coping saw design. It's nice to be able to push/pull from either side (I especially like having a handle on both sides, as well as having multiple options for holding the saw), and you can put more tension on the blade. Brian uses waxed whipping cord from Veritas, which is good stuff. It's very comfortable to hold and use, and while it's one of the littlest bowsaw I've ever seen, I think having graded sizes of bowsaws is a great idea. :^) :^) :^) Mine is rosewood with curly maple handles and toggle, BTW... These saws all work great, feel great, and look great... I put them on a par with the IT saw -- Brian did a fantastic job on them. And while they are extremely pleasing from an aesthetic point of view, they really fill a void in my saw arsenal and will get used a lot. Happy sawing, Paul Fuss Boston ---- Start of Message 90418 ---- From: Matthew Groves From: "Phil and Debbie Koontz" Reply-To: pdknz@j... > Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:30:12 +0000 > To: OLDTOOLS@w... > Subject: Re: tuning questions > > to green crayon smeared on a piece of hardwood ---- Start of Message 90419 ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" OK OK, here's the second reference in the last few days to this "green > crayon" being used in sharpening. > > I assume it is some sort of buffing compound or jewelers rouge or something. > Can someone enlighten a less wizened galoot on this point? Here ya go.... http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&page=32984&category=1%2 C43072&ccurrency=2 -Ken Ken Greenberg IT #321; Blue Galoot #82 400 Los Gatos Blvd., Los Gatos, CA 95032 http://www.calast.com/ken/Personal/wood.htm ---- Start of Message 90420 ---- From: "Ralph Brendler" OK OK, here's the second reference in the last few days to this "green > crayon" being used in sharpening. The Green Crayon is a chromium oxide (CrO) powder in a wax-stick form. I've seen it in sombody's catalog-- Lee Valley? I can't remember. Anyway, CrO is awesome stuff. I use it as the last step in my sharpening (after an 8000 waterstone and jeweler's rouge), and it leaves a spectacular and durable edge. Personally, though, I don't like crayons. I prefer to use straight CrO powder on a leather or wooden strop-- all the wax does is goop up the hone. You can get CrO powder quite reasonably from fellow galoot Keith DeGrau. Check his web site at: http://www.handamerican.com Keith sells jars of various compounds and hones, as well as other sharpening equipment. I have several of Keith's hones and compounds, as well as his super-spiffy burnishing rod/knife steel, and recently bought one of his Arkansas stone/hone combos. I have been *very* pleased with everything I have ever gotten from Keith, and can't recommend the man and his products highly enough. ralph ---- Start of Message 90421 ---- From: "Larry Williams" Apparently, many of these blocks were held in place by virtue of a > friction fit in the mortise. Some moons ago Don Boyer (what ever happened to Don, anyway?) offered a plane with a knock-down type mouth adjustment on FMM. Because it offered an opportunity to see just how they were done, we ordered it. This plane and others I've looked at since are all friction fit as Don McConnell described. Larry Williams ---- Start of Message 90422 ---- From: "Larry Williams" > James Foster wrote: >> .... would the C&W contents be considered, in general, a complete >> set for making most common planes? Scott Post replied: >I'm sure Larry has more floats than Paddy has #5's, but an occasional planemaker >like me can get by fine with that set. In fact, if you're on a budget and you >don't plan to make skewed planes right away you could probably get by with >only two: the side float and an edge float. You could use the side float for >doing bench plane beds. The bed float is really a luxury. >Larry would be better able to comment on what he feels is necessary. At the top of my list today, would be a functional left arm and hand 8^) A set of 1/8" thick side and edge floats are pretty important for making molding planes. If your wedges are going to be 3/16" thick or wider, as most are, a 3/16" thick set of floats might be better. Skewed planes, however require skewed floats and the skew angle needs to match the skew of the plane. Well, actually the skew of the bed as Scott mrntioned earlier. There are a lot of other floats that can be helpful. I put a picture of my working set at http://www.ipa.net/~williams/floats.jpg There are 31 floats in the set and I nearly have the tooling complete to make four more different floats. Off the top of my head, I can think of a number of other floats I feel like I need to make planes I haven't been able to make as yet. Keep in mind that Bill has several I don't have because they're only needed for bench planes. I think he might take issue with the bed float being a luxury when maintaining a tight mouth on bench planes. I just don't know how many I'll eventually end up with. Larry Williams ---- Start of Message 90423 ---- From: Matthew Groves From: "Ralph Brendler" Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:24:53 -0600 > To: matthew.groves@u... oldtools Subject: Re: tuning questions > > I use it as the last step in my sharpening (after an 8000 > waterstone and jeweler's rouge), and it leaves a spectacular and durable > edge. ---- Start of Message 90424 ---- From: "Jeff Gorman" >>>>>>>>>> "Yonks?" Whozzat, den? Chris Schwartz... Ex-Feral Brewer Stealth Galoot #97, FOYBIPO http://agent.infodata.com/cns/chris.html Maryland ---- Start of Message 90426 ---- From: Nichael Cramer : To: matthew.groves@u... oldtools >: The Green Crayon is a chromium oxide (CrO) powder in a >: wax-stick form. >As a matter of possible interest, though jeweller's rouge has appeared >in the texts for yonks, [...] One other tidbit in the Green Crayon saga: In his Sharpening Bible, Leonard Lee points out that Chromium Oxide is also uses as the (green) coloring agent in certain high-quality artist paints (a fact that should be reasonably obvious to anyone who's ever got the powered form of the stuff on their clothes...) As a result, an "emergency" strop could be formed by coating a piece of wood with said paint. N ---- Start of Message 90427 ---- From: Nichael Cramer As a matter of interest, though jeweller's rouge has appeared > in the texts for yonks, it is stated to be really most suitable for > softer metals. > Yup. I got some from a local jeweller's supply shop. The guy asked me what I wanted it for and when I said stropping, he mentioned exactly that. It's supposed to be only for bronze or brass. Yet I got good results out of it. But Herb's Yellowstone is so much better it's not fun. Without a doubt, the best stropping compound I've ever tried. And it's dry so if you use it in a felt wheel, it doesn't goo up or melt all over the place. > "Yonks?" Whozzat, den? > Hehehe. Eons. Ages. Cheers Nuno Souto nsouto@n... http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den ---- Start of Message 90429 ---- From: "Schwartz, Christopher N." -----Original Message----- From: Nichael Cramer [mailto:nichael@s... Subject: Veritas 4-1/2 For the last few days the Lee Valley webpage has had a blurb announcing: Their most recent entry into the handplane stakes, their version of the 4-1/2: That is one UGLY plane. The finish part of the "fit an finish" has a lot to be desired and it suffers the same pitfall that the new Record/Cliftons have: Circa 1950's Craftsman style wood totes. They don't look comfortable. Has anyone done an ergonomic test run on the Cliftons? For the totes alone, I'll still send my money to LN. Chris Schwartz... Ex-Feral Brewer Stealth Galoot #97, FOYBIPO http://agent.infodata.com/cns/chris.html Maryland ---- Start of Message 90430 ---- From: Louis Michaud ...place by virtue of a friction fit in the mortise. Here's some information I got from Johnny Johnson. He found a mitre plane with boxwood wedge and was kind enough to take some measurements. This one used a wedge. The wedge angle being only 4 degrees it would stay firmly in position and would need only a slight tuning to be knocked down for a large amount if needed. Could the wedge shape be an improvement over the straigth piece? I read that sometimes the straight ones had screws added on the side or small wegdes to hold it in place, friction didn't seem to work after a while. -The plane is wood bodied, not an infill. It's 3" wide, 11" long, -2 1/2" tall, with a 2 1/4" wide single iron bedded at 30 degrees -and sharpened at 17 degrees. The body looks to be made of beech -and it has one of those vertical wedges at the front of the throat that's -used to adjust the throat opening. That wedge is made of boxwood. -The mortise for the boxwood wedge slopes back toward the toe of -the plane - 8 degrees at the front of the mortise (the side of the mortise -toward the toe) and 4 degrees at the rear of the mortise (the side of the -mortise toward the throat) - making the wedge angle it'self 4 degrees. -The wedge is about 3 3/4" long, 1/2" thick at the bottom and 3/4" thick -at the top - 2 1/4" wide. -...single iron bedded at 30 degrees and sharpened at - 17 degrees... bevel up like most low angle planes but, in this -case, it gives a cutting angle of 47 degrees. It'll be interesting -to see just how well it really works. Best, Louis Michaud ---- Start of Message 90431 ---- From: "C. McArdle" >Also interesting the number of folks who appear to be aiming >for the "mid-market" between Stanley/Record and LN. chris cmca@c... "First we shape our tools. Thereafter, they shape us." -- Marshall McLuhan ---- Start of Message 90432 ---- From: Don McConnell I've been trying to accumulate a working set of Buck Brothers' >chisels and noticed that chisels that appear identical will have >different logo/tradenames stamped on them. For example, I have two >butt chisels that are identical except for the marking. One is >stamped "Buck Bros." and the other "Buck Brothers". > >It would be nice to know the date sequence of these different >markings (as well as any others). Does anyone have any information >on the timeline for the different Buck Brothers insignias? Then, yesterday, Chris Otto queried: >Speakin' of which -- if any of you are aware of good sources of info on old >Buck Bros. tools on the web, I'd greatly appreciate seeing a link. A >detailed type study might be too much to ask for, but some kind of overview >would be nice. I haven't run into anything like this yet while looking at >galoots' home pages. As I've indicated previously, I am in the process of gathering information with an eye toward putting an "edge tool" website together. As part of that process I have accumulated a number of related trade catalogues and price lists - mostly American. [Incidentally, if anyone has relevant trade catalogues they'd be willing to sell or photocopy, I'd be interested in hearing from them -- off list] Unfortunately, the Buck Brothers Price Lists I've accumulated don't help much in answering this type of questions. Apparently, the company continued using the same illustrations over a long period of time. However, I thought I'd offer a few general observations and hunches in the hopes of eliciting corrections, amplifications, and clarifications. I have noticed at least five basic different marks used by Buck Brothers. A couple of the basic marks have at least one variant. While it *may* be possible to divide the marks roughly into "earlier" and "later" categories, the existence of earlier marks doesn't automatically "date" a particular tool, as the company also seems to have continued using some marks, or variants, over long periods of time. One example. What *may* be the earliest mark: BUCK BROTHERS or, simply BUCK BROTHERS CAST STEEL continued to be used well into the twentieth century, I believe. More on this in a moment. Other marks introduced early were: BUCK BROTHERS inside a border which is flat below and MILLBURY, MASS. / and a double cyma curve above BUCK BROTHERS inside a plain rectangular border with CAST STEEL / rounded corners BUCK BROTHERS inside a serrated rectangular border CAST STEEL / sometimes just "BUCK BROTHERS" The very common "Buck's head" logo was "Adopted and Copy-righted June 1, 1875," and used the "BUCK BROS." wording. This copyrighted trademark was commonly used on the tools as: BUCK % BROS. or, simply: BUCK % BROS. CAST STEEL [The % symbol indicating the Buck's head logo. This logo is still in use.] Incidentally, the 1890 Buck Brothers Price list also shows the copyrighted buck's head logo in a rectangular serrated border - just to further confuse matters. I don't recall having seen this on a tool, but, possibly, others have? The styles of handles also seem not to have changed a lot over a period of time. The basic styles shown in the 1890 price list (the earliest I have available) also appear in a partial 1948 price list. There are a couple of minor exceptions, however. The 1890 price list does not show any leather tipped handles, but they do appear in a 1918 list. I'm thinking we can assume leather tipped handles were introduced sometime in the interim? Also, there is a simple flaring ovoid shaped handle shown on some of the butt chisels in the later price lists (1930s and 40's), which does not appear in the earlier lists. Ferrules may have some limited value in general dating. For example, it seems that original ferrules on some tools which appear to be latish, have a distinct coppery appearance. [Would this have been a World War II phenomenon?] Returning to the longevity of marks, I own some back bent gouges with these coppery ferrules which have the full "BUCK BROTHERS" logo. So, while this mark was likely introduced very early, it continued in usage for a long period of time. So, while the full "Buck Brothers" wording is generally associated with the earlier marks, it, alone, can't be taken as a definite sign that a particular tool is early. Hoping this helps a bit. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 90433 ---- From: paul womack > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nichael Cramer [mailto:nichael@s... > Subject: Veritas 4-1/2 > > For the last few days the Lee Valley webpage has had a blurb > announcing: Their most recent entry into the > handplane stakes, their version of the 4-1/2: > > > > That is one UGLY plane. No worse than an X-4 (;-) > The finish part of the "fit an finish" has a lot to > be desired I'll comment on that if and when I see one in the flesh. > and it suffers the same pitfall that the new Record/Cliftons > have: Circa 1950's Craftsman style wood totes. They don't look > comfortable. Agreed. But then LN don't look as confortable as older Stanley's, let alone Spiers/Norris. > Has anyone done an ergonomic test run on the Cliftons? I don't know wether I'd grace it with the term "ergonomic test" but I used them ("played with them" might be better) and they felt fine. The totes do "look" a little vertical though. > > For the totes alone, I'll still send my money to LN. That's an expensive tote, given the differential. And, of course, More "premium" hand tools can only be a "Good Thing" (*), right? BugBear (*) (c) Sellars and Yateman. ---- Start of Message 90434 ---- From: Howard Lau As a matter of possible interest, though jeweller's rouge has appeared > in the texts for yonks, it is stated to be really most suitable for > softer metals such as gold. Wow-- this could explain why CrO works so much better. I remember thinking that it was weird that there was such a noticable difference in stropping compound when I switched from rouge to CrO (and several galoots have asked me the same question this morning). Here's my new conjecture-- it could be that the rouge was not actually polishing off the wire edge. The mere act of burnishing on a hard leather strop could "tear off" the edge. CrO, on the other hand will actually polish the hard steel, leaving a smoother edge. I'm not one of those guy who looks at their sharpening job under a microscope (not that there's anything wrong with that), so this is just a guess. Seems to make sense, though. Interestingly, the most noticable gain for me going from rouge to CrO was not sharpness. Once you get to a certain point, it's hard to tell something is "sharper" than before. The big gain for me was edge durability. My CrO-stropped edges seem to stay sharp quite a bit longer, which is a big bonus when you are talking about a fiddly YB plane blade... ralph ---- Start of Message 90436 ---- From: "Shannon Salb" Interestingly, the most noticable gain for me going from rouge to CrO was > not sharpness. Once you get to a certain point, it's hard to tell something > is "sharper" than before. The big gain for me was edge durability. My > CrO-stropped edges seem to stay sharp quite a bit longer, which is a big > bonus when you are talking about a fiddly YB plane blade... ---- Start of Message 90437 ---- From: "Ken Greenberg" I remember starting to strop; I had previously sharpened to an 8000-grit > waterstone. I found that the biggest improvement in stropping was the > mirror finish (no, really, *mirror*) that the strop left. Oh, it was nice > to be able to stare at myself, but more importantly, the glossy-smooth > finish seemed to let the waste run right past the chisel. There was less > resistance. Of course, there's a reason why carving gouges are stropped! This mirror finish idea was actually a major epiphany for me a few years back. I used to say "Mirror, schmirror, as long as it planes" until I stopped to think about it. If you _don't_ have a mirror finish on both the back and the bevel/bezel, what you've got is a bunch of small scratches. They're like little channels in the surface. And when those channels reach the arris, what have you got? You've got a small hole in the edge. If you've got a small hole in the edge, it's going to tend to snag instead of slicing cleanly through the wood. When you have a mirror finish, you have polished out those scratches at least to the point where they are not distorting the reflection of light, which is probably good enough. Any resulting hole in the edge is going to be too small to affect planing. If you can't count nose hairs, you're not there yet. -Ken Ken Greenberg IT #321; Blue Galoot #82 400 Los Gatos Blvd., Los Gatos, CA 95032 http://www.calast.com/ken/Personal/wood.htm ---- Start of Message 90438 ---- From: James Foster On 2 Mar 2001, at 11:01, Shannon Salb wrote: > > > I remember starting to strop; I had previously sharpened to an 8000-grit > > waterstone. I found that the biggest improvement in stropping was the > > mirror finish (no, really, *mirror*) that the strop left. Oh, it was nice > > to be able to stare at myself, but more importantly, the glossy-smooth > > finish seemed to let the waste run right past the chisel. There was less > > resistance. Of course, there's a reason why carving gouges are stropped! > > This mirror finish idea was actually a major epiphany for me a few years > back. I used to say "Mirror, schmirror, as long as it planes" until I stopped to > think about it. If you _don't_ have a mirror finish on both the back and the > bevel/bezel, what you've got is a bunch of small scratches. They're like little > channels in the surface. And when those channels reach the arris, what have > you got? You've got a small hole in the edge. If you've got a small hole in the > edge, it's going to tend to snag instead of slicing cleanly through the wood. The other thing about having "holes in your arris" (hmm, wonder if that'll make it through some of the "family safe" web filters? B^)) is that these snaggy edge bits are more likely to be broken off in use making the edge rougher. I think this is the basis for the feeling that the stropped edges last longer since this won't happen (or at least will happen less). ---- Start of Message 90439 ---- From: "YARROW, GARY" No worse than an X-4 (;-) > It may be ugly, but after you use one a few times, you'll think its beautiful! Gary ---- Start of Message 90440 ---- From: "Brent Beach" Jeff Gorman writes: > > > As a matter of possible interest, though jeweller's rouge has appeared > > in the texts for yonks, it is stated to be really most suitable for > > softer metals such as gold. > > Wow-- this could explain why CrO works so much better. I remember thinking > that it was weird that there was such a noticable difference in stropping > compound when I switched from rouge to CrO (and several galoots have asked > me the same question this morning). ---- Start of Message 90441 ---- From: "John Horobin" > No worse than an X-4 (;-) > > > > > It may be ugly, but after you use one a few times, you'll think its > beautiful! If you are taking about the Marples X04 then I'll agree - its a plane I really quite like. Regarding the Veritas difficult to judge without seeing one in the flesh but I don't like the Record-like screw on the lever cap or a Norris type adjuster. The Narex planes had a frog that extended to the end of the sole - looks better quality than those though. John ---- Start of Message 90442 ---- From: Mark van Roojen >Anyway, FYI, here it is: Their most recent entry into the > handplane stakes, their version of the 4-1/2: > > Aside from the tote itself, the whole thing looks a little fishy to me. With the tote perched on a rod that is attached to the adjustable frog, it looks like you would eventually break or bend the rod that the tote sits on. And if there aren't some really beefy screws holding the adjustable frog still, the frog would be constantly shifting out of position from the force you put on the tote. I think I'll keep my antique Stanleys. Ray T.Smith ---- Start of Message 90444 ---- From: "John Horobin" With the tote perched on a rod that is attached to the adjustable > frog, it looks like you would eventually break or bend the rod that the tote > sits on. And if there aren't some really beefy screws holding the adjustable > frog still, the frog would be constantly shifting out of position from the > force you put on the tote. > I thought that but without seeing it for real it is hard to tell the strength of the tote rods. Must admit though at first sight does not look to be a significant advance on the Bailey design and nothing that has not been tried before. John ---- Start of Message 90445 ---- From: "Jim Cosgrove" I think that it is not quite complete, and am trying to figure out what is > missing. The original foot pedal appears to be missing, replaced with some > sort of wooden one. I'm not sure how it attaches to the machine as there > seems to be no place for it. I'm hoping that there is a place on the rear > leg where it attaches, otherwise something else is missing or broken. > ---- Start of Message 90446 ---- From: Derek Berwald > Howard writes: > > "Are there Galoot places to visit in Indianapolis." > > I don't know of anyplace _in_ Indianapolis, but I do know that there is a > block plane and oil can museum in one of the cities due north of Indy. ;-) > > Joe Palazzolo > Fort Wayne, Indiana > > p.s. Be sure to check out the gift shop where you can buy modern pieces of > art created from blood-stained shop towels. I second Joe's comments. Indpls is kinda barren. The nearest anteek maul (in walking distance from my house) has one, count it, one, booth with tools on a regular basis, and that guy is leaving for Edinburgh (Indiana, Richard, BugBear, 'n' Jeff - not the one on your island.) OTOH, this _is_ the Tom Witte spring auction weekend. Steve Noe, in Indianapolis fusilier@m... Juicy red meat is not bad for you... Fuzzy green meat, now THAT’S bad for you ---- Start of Message 90448 ---- From: "Shannon Salb" From: RayT.Smith@m... > > With the tote perched on a rod that is attached to the adjustable > frog, it looks like you would eventually break or bend the rod that the tote > sits on. And if there aren't some really beefy screws holding the adjustable > frog still, the frog would be constantly shifting out of position from the > force you put on the tote. > Just thinking out loud, that frog reminds me of a Millers Falls No 714 Buck Rodgers. Of course, the Buck doesn't have a means to be adjusted, it is rivited in place. Regards, Steve - who is VERY happy with his $22 MF No 10 and won't be buying any other 4 1/2 equivelents. ---- Start of Message 90451 ---- From: Nichael Cramer I recently got one of these green crayonss, and I was wondering: >So you stop the back of your blade, too? NO! Or, rather, you can, if you want use it to put on the tiniest of back micro-bevels by making *at most* one or two very shallow swipes on the back. But you need to be *very* careful doing this. Otherwise you can end up messing up the edge. (Also, I would never do this on, say, a chisel, where you really do want the back to be dead flat.) > How? If it was on >leather (which I don't have yet), it would dub the edge a bit? >Or on wood, side to side?' I use leather, and just drag it along perpendicular to the edge. (Imagine sort of like a barber stropping a razor.) N ---- Start of Message 90452 ---- From: reeinelson@w... (Robert Nelson) Date: 2001-03-02 19:27:00 Subject: PATINA 2001 Hi All, With Karl not doing it this year, somebody needs to remind all of you living within a 500 mile radius of DC that the annual Spring PATINA sale and auction is next weekend. A big room full of sales tables full of tools on Sat. the 10th and a tool auction on Sun. the 11th. Plus multiple tailgaters selling tools outside the hall both days. Anybody, collector or user, who can't find something he/she can't go home without is just too darn picky. Of course, anybody from beyond 500 miles would be welcome too and I'm sure there will be a few of those. Check the patinatools.org web page Chris has set up for additional info or feel free to ask me. I'll have a table this year; I know Tony Seo has one too and there may be others. Hope to see lots of you there. Best Wishes, Bob ---- Start of Message 90453 ---- From: TomPrice@a... Date: 2001-03-02 19:33:00 Subject: RE: tuning questions Derek wrote: >I recently got one of these green crayonss, and I was wondering: >So you stop the back of your blade, too? How? If it was on >leather (which I don't have yet), it would dub the edge a bit? >Or on wood, side to side? Nichael wrote: >NO! Or, rather, you can, if you want use it to put >on the tiniest of back micro-bevels by making *at most* one >or two very shallow swipes on the back. But you need to >be *very* careful doing this. Otherwise you can end up >messing up the edge. (Also, I would never do this on, >say, a chisel, where you really do want the back to be >dead flat.) Actually, yes, you need to strop both the bevel and the back if you want to get the keenest edge. You strop the back by simply laying the blade flat on the substrate and applying light-moderate pressure while drawing the blade back. Never raise the blade up or you will dub the edge off. I strop chisels all the time. You may put a 1/2 angstrom back bevel on the blade but c'mon, that isn't going to affect the use of the chisel one iota. To all intents and purposes it will still be flat. **************************** Tom Price (TomPrice@a... Will Work For Tools The Galoot's Progress Old Tools site is at: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/galtprog.html ---- Start of Message 90454 ---- From: PeterH5322@a... Date: 2001-03-02 19:33:00 Subject: Re: Help dating #3 addendum In a message dated 3/2/01 3:39:48 PM, ssalb@l... writes: << Oh, also, it has a petent number on the cap -- 1,918,750, which was filed in 1932. >> The infamous patent for the kidney hole ... found on all Type 16 and later tools. A purist would observe that Type 16 and Type 17 tools should all have the patent number, and that Type 18s should not, but some low-demand Type 18s apparently had patent numbers. ---- Start of Message 90455 ---- From: "Charles Driggs"