---- Start of Message 25001 ---- From: Pierre Fogal Date: 1997-08-27 17:01:00 Subject: Re: Tooling in the Southwest Addressed to: attaway@p... oldtools@l... ** Reply to note from attaway@p... Wed, 27 Aug 1997 07:34:46 -0500 (CDT) What!?! You didn't see Cut-n-Shoot, DimeBox, Hell, Waxahachie, Independence, Industry, New Ulm, Refugio (pronounced Re-fe-ur-e-o), or Mexia (pronounced Muh-hay-uh). And don't forget world famous La Grange (think Dom del Louise and houses of ill repute)! Ahhh, Mexia ... been there .... Not far from Mexia is Palestine, Tx and the National Scientific Balloon Facility. The recovery boys from NSBF typically drive to Mexia after a balloon launch, stop at the Dairy Queen (if its still there) and call back to the base to see which way the balloon is heading. On one such occassion, a conversation started up about how Mexia should be pronounced. One guy used the pronounciation expressed above, the other said the "x" should be pronounced gringo fashion ie MEX ia. Well, these guys stop at the dairy queen and make their call and order a shake. The senior of the two then says to the girl behind the counter ... "Tell me the name of this place, and say it real slow" She replies: D.A.I.R.Y. Q.U.E.E.N. Regards, Pierre To quote Harry Chapin: "I spent a month there one afternoon ...." Dr. Pierre Fogal Physics Dept., University of Denver Denver, CO, USA. ---- Start of Message 25002 ---- From: Esther Heller Date: 1997-08-27 11:04:00 Subject: RE: viking visual requested > > I've been thinking about this. I have some really nice salvaged (very old) > wood with _original_vikings_ in place. I was wondering if it might be > possible to excavate the grave. I would think the same techniques would > apply as for other joinery restoration. If one were very careful in the > removal of the viking, the process should do zero damage. Naturally, proper > clamping to restrain the wood would be necessary. Think of what might be > learned about tool usage and technique by examining the grave under > magnification. So, is it worth the risk??? When you remove the viking from its grave, please be _very careful_ not to damage the textiles used as graveclothes, a bunch of us fiberholics are salivating at the thought of some samples in pristine condition. Major points of interest: Fiber type (wool, silk, linen, etc.) thread techniques (wraps per in, s or z twist, s or z ply, worsted or woolen spun, grist) Any dyes techniques (knit, loom woven, tablet woven, sprang, nalbinding, felting) Garment layout and construction (selvedges are particularly important because they can be evidence for the type of loom) Just say (tm PL) you would be surprised what has been learned by removing vikings from their graves in Birka Sweden or Greenland..... Esther who thinks we are all about ready for FMM eoh@k... ---- Start of Message 25003 ---- From: Bob Roche Date: 1997-08-27 17:16:00 Subject: Andy Rooney (was: Re: Jimmy Carter a Galoot??) -Reply Andy's may claim galoot activities, but I have personally seen him buy tailed apprentices at R.B. Wing in Albany. Of course that was 7 or 8 years ago. He may have changed since then. This store is now defunct, but it was great for Norm and Galoot alike. His style in person was not unlike that of his on air persona. As I recall he had about 1/2 dozen electric drills spread out on the counter in front of him and he was giving the clerk a very difficult time about minute details on the different models. Bob Roche Albany, NY broche@m... >>> "J. Gunterman" john@g... 08/25/97 08:10pm >>> At 11:15 AM -0700 8/25/97, David Hunkins wrote: >Speaking of CelebrityGaloots, anybody ever notice the Slab-O-Desk that Andy >Rooney sits behind each Sunday night? I recall a while ago.... Andy did his segment about that desk. he explained how he found that tree in the Castskill Mt's, cut it down himself using just an axe.......... the used a skidder to haul it out of the woods, from there it was taken to a mill(no mention of it's power source) and that huge slab was harvested from it. If you look very closely you can see the Dutchman he laid into a fissure in the slab. He explained that the crack opened as the slab dried so he "put this cool old wedge" in it to hold it closed. He hade no mention of using Vikings on the revese side, though. He is a galoot in the finest tradition, fer sure L8r, John ---- Start of Message 25004 ---- From: Anatol Polillo Date: 1997-08-27 13:27:00 Subject: Make a chair from a tree info Galoots, In response to a few questions. John Alexander has a website at www.deeppool.com/greenwoodworking.shtml It is a work in progress but it has interesting info for those interested. Anatol ---- Start of Message 25005 ---- From: Pierre Fogal Date: 1997-08-27 11:34:00 Subject: Re: Vikings for the hearing impaired Addressed to: ritter@p... oldtools@l... ** Reply to note from ritter@p... Wed, 27 Aug 1997 06:14:38 -0700 Stu and Bob discussed ways of detecting the proper spot for Vikings using 'scopes and mics. Some one else (my apologies for having forgotten who) said they used a two pin moisture meter and looked for wild variations .... Well, both of these approaches sound far too much like work around here. Not at all galootish .... but wait! I do have a nice old flying spot galvanometer sitting on my shelf so perhaps if I hooked it up in series with a current source I could probe the board looking for flucutions. Flucuations in conductivity should be proportional to the moisture content and therefore be equivalent to the moisture meter trick above. Best part is I get to use an old tool, and if its a highly stressed the strobe effect will be nice too ... Regards, Pierre Dr. Pierre Fogal Physics Dept., University of Denver Denver, CO, USA. ---- Start of Message 25006 ---- From: James Foster Date: 1997-08-27 17:38:00 Subject: Re: Wood screws Carl Murphy wrote: > > Can anyone help, I'm looking for two 1 1/2" wood screws and nuts for a new > maple bench I am building, is there anyone who makes these anymore, or does > anyone sell 1 1/2" tap&die for wood. Carl Murphy wrote: > > My apologies to the group. I thought (WTB) could be posted anytime, and > (FS) was restricted to the first monday of the month, I was wrong. I > apologize again. > Okay, I'll bite. The original text reads to me like a "does anyone sell this stuff" request, but the followup sounds like Carl got his hand slapped for dealing off of FMM. What's the scoop? The request sounded legitimate to me. BTW, either Lee Valley or WoodCraft (ya read enough catalogs and stuff starts to blur together B^)) sell taps/dies for wood, and I think they went up to 1 1/2". ---- Start of Message 25007 ---- From: KEMPINSKI, ROBERT M. (JSC-OS) Date: 1997-08-27 17:59:00 Subject: Stanley 358 Miter Box Thanks all for the input on the miter box. Due to the great info, I have laid out a course of action. Regards, Rob Kempinski Lurking in Houston >---------- >From: KEMPINSKI, ROBERT M. (JSC-OS) >Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 1997 6:04 PM >To: 'Old tools' >Subject: Stanley 358 Miter Box > >GG, > >Ran across a Stanley 358 Miter box the other day. It was at an antique >store and in rough shape. It had a SW mark on it. The vertical posts >were loose, the surfaces well worn, the length stops missing (the width >stops were there), rusty, and the Disston saw handle was missing the >bottom half and wrapped in electrical tape. Walthers says this is >worth $50 to 150. They were asking $189. Can these be readily had such >that I can forget this one or do I need to really bargain with the >antique dealer. > >I could really use this tool for an upcoming project. > >Rob Kempinski >Lurking in Houston > >---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25008 ---- From: Mike DeLong Date: 1997-08-27 17:59:00 Subject: Re: Tooling in the Southwest On Aug 27, 9:02am, David Hegedusich wrote: > Welcome to Texas, pardner. > > After the oil bust of the early 80's, we're doing all we can to generate > a little revenue! > > David > Who's favorite Texas town is Old Dime Box I've always had the desire to live in Uncertain, Texas 8-) Since I live just a few miles from a small town that bills itself as the antique capital of Texas, I know where Bill is coming from with his statement of 'absolutely outRAgeous' prices on old tools in Texas. Around the first of the year I frequented one of the local establishments with SWMBO. I saw a Stanley #4, 3 pat. date & frog adjustment screw, with a tag saying $55 - firm. It was in one of those multi-vendor consignment type joints. The knob was missing, the cheek cracked, the tote in two pieces, and no blade. If anybody is interested, I bet it is still there 8-) Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike DeLong Voice: (214) 768-2802 Director of Endowment Management Fax: (214) 768-3786 Southern Methodist University Internet: mdelong@m... 6425 Boaz Lane Suite 202B Dallas, TX 75275-0193 ---- Start of Message 25009 ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1997-08-27 18:58:00 Subject: Re: why the hollow backs on japanese edge tools? On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Doug Dawson wrote: > > Earlier Andrew wrote, >> > This is obviously a single-bevel knife, right? > Every time you sharpen the tool, you sharpen both the bevel > and the back. The hardness of the Japanese metal makes it > advantageous the minimize the area of metal that has to be > removed from the back in order to do this - hence the hollowing. Perhaps I misunderstand something basic about sharpening, but maybe not. If you take a single-bevel tool -- marking knife, plane blade, or chisel -- and flatten and polish the back, and then sharpen a sharp edge at the intersection of the bevel's face and the back, and then dull the edge through use, why would resharpening entail reflattening and repolishing the back side? This would seem to ultimately lead to a double-bevel tool. I don't do that on any Western tool, and I don't see why I'd need to on the Japanese knife in question. Rather, for any tool with this side profile which needs a sharpening touch-up | | | | | / | / |/ what I'd do is hone/polish the bevel (or the micro-secondary bevel), and then remove any miniscule wire edge from the back side with a couple passes on a fine abrasive. The total area of the plane on the tool's overall back side (smaller for a Japanese-style blade than for a Western one) seems utterly irrelevant, since the wire edge in question is going to involve the portion of the blade that is, for *both* blade types, flat across the back of the edge. The only difference still seems to me to be that, once resharpening has occurred enough times, one must adjust the metal of the Japanese blade in a significant way, as Colin Montoya-Lewis' post discusses. This adjustment may be necessitated by brittleness of steel, but come on, how hard and brittle and in-need-of-delicate-banging-so-we-don't-crack-it should a marking knife be? -- Andrew (still convinced this marking knife is a waste of fine steel) ---- Start of Message 25010 ---- From: Doug Dawson Date: 1997-08-27 19:23:00 Subject: Re: why the hollow backs on japanese edge tools? Earlier Andrew wrote, > On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Doug Dawson wrote: > > Earlier Andrew wrote, > >> > > This is obviously a single-bevel knife, right? > > > Every time you sharpen the tool, you sharpen both the bevel > > and the back. The hardness of the Japanese metal makes it > > advantageous the minimize the area of metal that has to be > > removed from the back in order to do this - hence the hollowing. > > Perhaps I misunderstand something basic about sharpening, but > maybe not. If you take a single-bevel tool -- marking knife, > plane blade, or chisel -- and flatten and polish the back, and > then sharpen a sharp edge at the intersection of the bevel's > face and the back, and then dull the edge through use, why would > resharpening entail reflattening and repolishing the back side? > This would seem to ultimately lead to a double-bevel tool. You don't have to reflatten the back, because it's already flat. There are several things to consider here: 1) just because something is polished now, and results in a sharp edge, does not mean that polished edge is gonna be polished next month. Metal rusts, and it rust microscopically very quickly, even if you can't see it with the naked eye, and this dulls edges _fast_. It doesn't matter if it's a western or a Japanese tool, altho the anti-corrosion alloys of some cheaper western tools can mask this somewhat, at the expense of sharpenability. 2) When you polish the bevel, that's not enough to get a truly sharp edge, because in the process of doing so you've "brushed out" the metal along the bevel to a level somewhat below the plane of the back, which weakens the edge. Cleaning it up by doing some further polishing of the back tends to rectify this. 3) You're not gonna get a double bevel tool, because both your iron and your sharpening stone are flat, and you've gone to lengths to make sure that is so. ( See below. ) > I don't do that on any Western tool, and I don't see why I'd need > to on the Japanese knife in question. Rather, for any tool with > this side profile which needs a sharpening touch-up > > | | > | | > | / > | / > |/ > > what I'd do is hone/polish the bevel (or the micro-secondary > bevel), and then remove any miniscule wire edge from the back > side with a couple passes on a fine abrasive. That's gonna give you a double bevel more readily than the above, _depending_ on how it's applied. Then again, we may be talking about something somewhat similar, because when I talk about polishing the back, I'm not talking about a major operation in any way. > The total area of > the plane on the tool's overall back side (smaller for a > Japanese-style blade than for a Western one) seems utterly > irrelevant, since the wire edge in question is going to involve > the portion of the blade that is, for *both* blade types, flat > across the back of the edge. > > The only difference still seems to me to be that, once > resharpening has occurred enough times, one must adjust the metal > of the Japanese blade in a significant way, as Colin > Montoya-Lewis' post discusses. This adjustment may be > necessitated by brittleness of steel, but come on, how > hard and brittle and > in-need-of-delicate-banging-so-we-don't-crack-it should a marking > knife be? If you mean the whole "tapping out" thing, that's never necessary if the tool has been properly cared for, i.e. unless it's been damaged in some way ( doesn't have to be intentional, ) or unless the progress of the back as you're sharpening the tool has been neglected. So you should give a little polish to the back of the tool every time you polish the bevel, and you won't have to think about it. > -- Andrew (still convinced this marking knife is a waste > of fine steel) These things tend to require a sensitive touch. I won't let anyone else use my hand-made saws, e.g. - no way. Doug Dawson dawson@p... ---- Start of Message 25011 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-27 19:14:00 Subject: Re: Moulding plane identification One of the techniques I've found that works sometimes with very difficult to read or non-visible marks in end grain of planes, is the use of a "black light". I first use alcohol to remove "gunk" from the area where mark is expected and try the black light illumination of the area. It is sometimes quite striking in what is evidenced. I suspect it is because residual debris is embedded in the mark and "fluoresces" diferently than the non marked wood. For example, I would never have suspected that a plane I had was an "Elsmore" without the use of this technique. The mark was not visible without black light luminscence! --ErvSaws On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:44:28 -0700 David Hunkins drhunk@c... writes: >At 10:31 PM 8/26/97 -0700, John Hunt wrote: > > > >>Random tidbit fron the back of my mind. Logging companies mark their > >>logs with a sledge hammer-like stamp on the endgrain of the log. >They do >>this because is disrupts the fibers of the wood several feet into the > >>log (so I was told). This means that if you cut a foot off of the >log and >>put your stamp there, they could tell whose log it was originally. >> >>That's what I remember from who-knows-where. Now, who wants to tell >me >>how they can recover the ID of the original stamp? Then we might >have a >>way of recovering lost makers marks. > >GG's, > >Part I ----> > >This first reminds me of several planes I've seen that have *very* odd >looking maker marks. My conclusion has grown into the following: >plane >owners occasionally wanted the mark of the previous maker/hardware >store/owner to be gone, and they accomplished this by planing it off. >Even >though the surface of the toe became flat, the act of making the >imprinting >the stamp *did* "disrupt" the wood fibers. Some of these "shaved" >planes >were stored or exposed to whatever moisture conditions were necessary >to >raise this compressed grain above the flattened surface. The result is >an >imprint that stands proud of the toe's surface ... a reversal of sorts >in >that the areas that were pushed below the surface when the plane was >stamped are now the ones that stand above the surface. It's kind of a >ghostly image when you're used to seeing its opposite ... the once >incuse >becomes embossed, or the background of the embossed imprint now stands >above the letters. Anybody else recall seeing imprints like this? > >I imagine the same forces are at play as when I use the old trick of a >wet >cloth and an old clothes iron to raise a dented surface in a piece of >furniture I'm making. I'm almost certain that knowledgeable technical >scientific minds will fill in the holes of my "explanation". > >But Ladies & Gentlemen ... can I be confident that y'all won't go out >raisin' the grain on molding plane toes to decipher a weak mark. >Heaven >forbid and help you all if I'm responsible for destruction based on >this >post! Ok ... I trust you ...... [wipes sweat from brow] .... Just >sharing >thoughts here. > >On to part II -----> > >There was an article in either the M-WTCA or EAIA publication within >the >last 5 years talking about a newly discovered Francis Nicholson mark >that >had a dot instead of a star between the "F" and the Nicholson. I think >it >was on a Bob Wheeler plow ... no matter (actually it probably mattered >a >ton to Bob!) What I'm recalling is a computer graphic enhancement >process that Ben Blumenberg (a once prolific collector/dealer from >Maine) >and his software company used to take quite a weak imprint to the >point of >being able to reconstruct what the original crisp imprint had looked >like. >I can't believe that this has eluded me till now!! I've only owned a >PC for >4 years, so it was before then ... I remember thinking to myself that >it >would be worth having a computer just to be able to do that! Hell ... >I >guess I got bogged down trying to figure out Windows 3.1 in the >beginning >and didn't have any time for important stuff. > >But here I am in the midst of the geekiest, computer literate bunch of >tool >fanatics in the world. Do we need to bring in the same resources >needed by >law enforcement to do this image enhancement stuff? You people have to >get >on top of this! I've got a decent PC and a scanner ... what software >does >one need, and how does the process work?? This is exciting!! Just like >the >movies when they keep zooming the image, the dude at the keyboard >types >wildly, the image becomes clearer .... Please, is this science fiction >or >can we do this at home? > >How am I gonna get any sleep now that the adrenaline is pumping? > >David > >---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25012 ---- From: Stu Ritter Date: 1997-08-27 19:14:00 Subject: Rocky Mountain Meet Gentle Folk; Well now..Jason is coming (the infamous galootapalooza producer), Pierre and Stu will be there...(them's the physicist and the mechanic). Who else gonna be there. Any of you other list-o-phytes gonna make it??? Stu a user ---- Start of Message 25013 ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1997-08-27 19:45:00 Subject: Re: Saw and Infill questions Jim Spallin asks... ..snip.. (<-- remembering to "edit severely") >What are good ways to hold the in-fill in in-fill planes? Pins, > CA glue, ... What ways would you recommend against and why???< Well, I'm sure the other members of the planemakera anonymous group will also jump in, but I'd stay away from glues. I suppose a modern epoxy will give a sound wood/metal join, but maybe *too* good, and by holding both sides of the infill prevent any wood movement (exaggerating to make a point) I'd go for pins. couple of cross steel or brass/bronze pins, riveted and filed flush. They're reversible by drilling out if necessary, and allow the wood to just slide around if it travels from Alaska to Texas. Just my two denari... Richard Who thinks its about time we made the viking explanation an annual event - like morticing and cuting dovetails etc. ---- Start of Message 25014 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-27 20:13:00 Subject: Re: Wood screws Carl Murphy wrote: > > Can anyone help, I'm looking for two 1 1/2" wood screws and nuts for a new > maple bench I am building, is there anyone who makes these anymore, or does > anyone sell 1 1/2" tap&die for wood. source for the screws: Crystal Creek Mill Wood Products P.O. Box 41 DeWitt, NY 13214 (315) 446-1229 ---- Start of Message 25015 ---- From: Colin Montoya-Lewis Date: 1997-08-27 20:55:00 Subject: Re: why the hollow backs on japanese edge tools? > > The only difference still seems to me to be that, once > resharpening has occurred enough times, one must adjust the metal > of the Japanese blade in a significant way, as Colin > Montoya-Lewis' post discusses. This adjustment may be > necessitated by brittleness of steel, but come on, how > hard and brittle and > in-need-of-delicate-banging-so-we-don't-crack-it should a marking > knife be? > I agree. That's why I bought one of Hock's knives. Works great, but doesn't require as much maintenance.-Colin ---- Start of Message 25016 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-27 20:58:00 Subject: pointy ended adz GG A few days ago someone asked about a tool that looked like an adz that came to a point at the business end. It might be a picaroon (English sappie, Jeff), a tool used by timber handlers to stick in the end of a piece of timber to shift it. See Salaman's "Dictionary of Woodworking Tools" under timber handling tools. Sorry to take so long to remember where I saw it. Malcolm Dick ---- Start of Message 25017 ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1997-08-27 23:54:00 Subject: wages at the forge This is just one of those bits of trivia. Watching public TV the other night and there was a sword-maker from England both demonstrating his craft and telling some history re. weapon-making. His estimate was that a good sword cost a warrior about $20,000.00 (it might have been pounds..not sure) but a LOT of dough in any event! I hope all of our smithy's are making those kinds of wages.... it's obviously a LOT of hours at the forge getting a blade into shape..... worth being compensated well for... Tom ---- Start of Message 25018 ---- From: Carl Murphy Date: 1997-08-27 23:54:00 Subject: RE: Wood Screw Thanks to everyone who got back to me to where I could get wood screw, I think I will go that rout, to the people who jumped all over me, well what can I say. I thought my request was for information, Maybe I went about it wrong with the (WTB) in front of my subject, but if your going to slap someones hand, maybe it should be posted so all can see, not privately. maybe we all can learn from the mistakes. and maybe we should let the list mother do the slapping. Carl Murphy Eastport, Maine ---- Start of Message 25019 ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1997-08-28 00:47:00 Subject: bronze capped 110? A little gloat and a question..... I picked up a #110 today for $3...little hand hole drilled in it...homemade front knob....stubby little blade.... was the circular Stanley Rule and Level Co. logo. What it DOES have in a nice bronze lever cap. I've heard others mention these caps and always as if they were homemade. I'm starting to wonder about that. Could it be that Stanley sold a lever cap made of bronze to replace the ones that were getting dropped and broken? I mean, how many people are going to go out and recast a lever cap? Just wondering... oh yeah, the rest of the mini-gloat....got a nice Stanley claw hammer; two Rigid pipe wrenches, a rubber mallet, a Stanley Combination square WITH intact level and scribe...a couple of BIG ball peen hammers (20 oz) like new... $25 for the lot....kinda fun, but still not a Sweetheart #62 for a buck... Tom ---- Start of Message 25020 ---- From: Larry Williams Date: 1997-08-28 00:47:00 Subject: Re: the FTJ Leaning Wedge Article Patrick Leach wrote: >tkissam@c... (Todd Kissam) writes: > > > > >Not an accident! > > Dunno about that, Todd. I wish Patrick was right, I'm sure that everyone understands how anomilies relate to the value of planes. I wouln't mind at all if they proved to be incredibly rare and might even offer them to Patrick at a handsome profit. But they're not rare or even unusual. We do, however, have a good number of planes, by different makers and from different time periods, that have the features we told about in the article. Bill and I will be at the SWTCA meet in Tulsa tomorrow evening and we'll bring along a few planes and the article. We plan to bring our Mosely set of H&R's just because it shows how consistent the leaning wedge is within an unusually large set. I'm sure there will be plenty of other planes to check at the meet too. Looking forward to it. Larry Williams who hopes that, in the future, when someone on the list goes to great lengths to discredit something people will ask why ---- Start of Message 25021 ---- From: William K. Taggart Date: 1997-08-28 04:55:00 Subject: Re: Vikings for the hearing impaired Tom Holloway wrote: > > GGs-- > Tank gunnery? Pistol range? Who's gonna fess up that they lost > their hearing from too many hours in a closed space with roaring Normite > monsters? > Tom Holloway, > who doesn't *really* want to get to deep into this hearing loss thing ;-) > Eh? Whatsat ya say? Huh? - Bill ---- Start of Message 25022 ---- From: William K. Taggart Date: 1997-08-28 05:09:00 Subject: Tooling in the southwest Follow-up... I forgot to mention that I passed through Bailey county... - Bill (who now knows what the whatsit was (thanks, guys), and now thinks he shoulda splurged for ten bucks just to have it...) ---- Start of Message 25023 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 04:43:00 Subject: Vikings and hammers Item Subject: Text Item Paddy, What does the mighty galoot recommend for hunting Vikings? Is there some relationship between the type of hammer used to hunt the Viking location and the resonance/amplitude? I'm thinking of how an antique marimba (or is it a xylophone?) sounded as Aaron hit the keys with the different types of hammers. Quite different in timber between them... So do you recommend a cobblers hammer, wooden mallet, tack hammer or deadweight? I would think that something filled with shot that would not generate sympathetic resonances would work best. Bruce Who doesn't understand what the difference between a marimba and a xylophone either... ---- Start of Message 25024 ---- From: Aaron R. Ionta Date: 1997-08-28 05:33:00 Subject: Re: Vikings and hammers While we are on the subject of viKINGS what about viQUEENS.??? did the women of the day use viQUEENS to darn socks ? or was that sweaters? you know that them darn viKINGS worn out a lot of socks pillageing and plundering for all that old Bronz age stuff. Maybee Patrick had some of those goodies hidden in his inner sanctum. can you say what did Bruce have in his haul? Just Say (TM PL) what the heck am I still doing at work at this hour???? aaron ---- Start of Message 25025 ---- From: Jeff Gorman Date: 1997-08-27 21:59:00 Subject: RE: Infill questions On Wednesday, August 27, 1997 12:48 AM, Ernie Fisch [SMTP:ernfisch@p...] wrote: > > >Minute lateral adjustments can be made by holding > > >the > > blade assembly in the left hand, while nudging >the > > > > lever left or right with the thumb or forefinger. > > Ray will be happy with his own way of doing things, > > > > but the more standard practice is to sight down the > > > > plane from the toe, holding the front with one hand > > > > and operating the setting mechanisms with the other > > > > while observing the edge as it appears through the > > > > mouth. > > I make the final lateral adjustment after taking a > swipe with the plane. > After doing my best with the eyeball I look at the > shaving and if thicker on > one side than the other move the lever (oh so > slightly) in that direction. > Gets to be a pretty fine adjustment. If one has a cambered iron, as one should, 8-), then a correctly balanced lateral adjustment will bring the shaving out of the centre of the shaving aperture (assuming that one is planing on a broad surface). Jeff -- Jeff Gorman - West Yorkshire Jeff@m... ---- Start of Message 25026 ---- From: David Hunkins Date: 1997-08-28 09:16:00 Subject: Leaning wedges Y'all, I am regretfully late in jumping onto this topic, although I intended to be an early contributor. I've known that this was coming, and I still am unprepared with a concise response and a concrete opinion. My apologies to Larry for not picking up the ball sooner when I know he was expecting me. >From what I know of Larry Williams & his partner Bill Clark, they took an unexpected turn when deciding to make a wooden plane. After taking a class from Tod Herrli and reading available books and articles, I think it surprised them that so much of the old planemaker lore has been unrecorded and lost. It may be that only those who have attempted to manufacture New Old Tools have been in a position to think about and discover what Larry & Bill have noticed. Betcha MacGeek has learned things about wooden spokeshaves that thousands of woodworkers who know how to use them successfully haven't needed or wanted to think about. It must have taken a different perspective ... from someone trying to make a molding plane ... to focus on this leaning wedge configuration. Thousands of molders have been handled by the best minds in Antique Tools over lots of years. If it was noticed it has been considered trivial and never written about or given any weight as important till now. I'm glad they noticed and thought about it and wrote about it. I think I'll give it a chance. I've looked over hundreds of molders in the last few months. I see leaning and I see no leaning. I see some, but very little leaning the wrong way. I'm having trouble deducing a pattern, but I see it often enough so that I don't think it's random and I don't think it's accidental or reckless or sloppy. IMHO, this ain't no coincidence ... but I have questions as to why. First, I've never attempted to make a molding plane. I'll glady concede that it must be a bear of a job to make a plane properly. Look at one closely and think about what it takes to lay everything out, fashion a tapered iron, cut the mortise and fit the wedge to hold everything just so. So my first question is, if this method of cutting the mortise and fitting the wedge was a grande shortcut ... why didn't it catch on with everyone? I'd be interested in a regional correlation or a pattern that fits into a certain time period. I'm not seeing one. Maybe something will fall into place after everyone examines their shelves. I'd also be interested in hearing Larry (or anyone else who has made a molding plane) compare the process of making one both ways. Maybe someone who made many planes each day didn't feel the need for this "shortcut". Seems like it might be a quicker route to a good quality fit, but maybe it's not at all? I'd like to hear ... hell, I might have to finally try making a plane myself to carry on the family tradition :-) Here are some other observations: A. I find that the leaning wedge is much more often seen on hollows and rounds. B. Less often seen on molders and planes with an integral fence. C. It is much more often seen on narrow planes. D. I find that even on planes that do *not* have a leaning wedge that the wall of the blind side mortise is often "dished" ... just like me "undercutting" slightly when I chop to the shoulder line when making dovetails ... that shortcut to insure a good fit where it counts. E. I see it on a plane (Tho.Grant / New:York) c.1755 and on planes by various makers who worked on through to the last quarter of the 1800's. I'm not observing a correlation to time period. G. My data pool does not consist of planes that were made in a wide sampling of locations. Can't observe any regional correlation. H. Some of the thinner wedges that appear to be leaning are actually slightly curved in length. Something that might be momentarily wise would be to separate the issue of blind side bevels and percentage of arc cut by H/R's, etc. It may be ultimately connected ... but it seems to be clouding the leaning wedge mortise shortcut stuff. Might be a corollaries to the theory, but we might not be able to prove the theory yet ;-) My personal opinion, however little it's worth these days, is that this is a cool thing. These leaning wedges may not turn out to be the Rosetta Stone of wooden planes, but it's worth noting and thinking about and discussing. No one is trying to win the Nobel Prize here. Hell ... it's an observation. Maybe we're not ready to draw conclusions yet, but it ain't nothin' to get anybody's panties in a twist about. Don't we think that there must be legitimate "secrets" and knowledge and shortcuts to be discovered and relearned by those who are stepping back and making New Old Tools? I think that whatever of value and importance comes from these Williams/Clark observations, that they should be applauded for having the right attitude and trying to share their discoveries. David *who hopes more discussion is generated elsewhere about this topic than has been seen here on the Porch. ---- Start of Message 25027 ---- From: Bramel, Jim Date: 1997-08-28 11:40:00 Subject: Yard Sale again Bought some wooden planes last night. Three of them are listed here. Anyone know anything about them? Molding plane - S. SLOOP Round - W. SCOTT in a box, PITTSB. in a separate but same size box and a much larger SR in a box. I got other hollows and rounds marked the same way with the SR. The person I got them from thought this was for Southern Railway. Skewed Rabbet (I think) - MARTEN DOSCHER NEW YORK - is this a maker or user owner name? Thanks, Jim Jim Bramel - University of Kentucky - jbram00@p... ---- Start of Message 25028 ---- From: Bramel, Jim Date: 1997-08-28 12:00:00 Subject: Saws Got two saws last night. One is a beautiful little Atkins, 20" long. There are some pieces of the etching/engravings that I just cannot make out. In a circle around the Atkins logo there is "ATKINS ALWAYS ????D". Cannot make out the third word except for the D. Also under all of this logo, address, patent info, etc. is what appears to be "DAMASKEENED MARK". Is this really DAMASKEENED and is maybe TRADE to the left of it? Gave $3.00 for this one. The other is Disston. Marked - DISSTON 1840 1940 (Shape of Airplane) (Keystone) (Scales) NINETEEN FORTY SPECIAL Henry Disston & Sons Inc. Philadelphia Is this one anything special as saws go? Couldn't get this one cheap. Had to (didn't have to bud did) give $8.00 for this one. Thanks, Jim Jim Bramel - University of Kentucky - jbram00@p... ---- Start of Message 25029 ---- From: Garrett Spitzer Date: 1997-08-28 14:09:00 Subject: Vikings? This whole thing sounds like some "snipe" joke... sinking Dutchmen.... buried Vikings. A serious question ... is this similar to what you do to stop a crack in metal; you drill a hole at the tip of the crack. The stress at the end of a crack is directly proportional to the radius of curvature at the vary tip; thus if you increase the radius by drilling a hole at the end, you greatly reduce the stress. It makes sense that you could locate this point by tapping the board; high stress=high pitch.... just stretch a guitar string to see. Sorry... geeky engineer kicking in ... back to mind numb shaving shuffler mode... Regards, Garrett ---- Start of Message 25030 ---- From: Douglas A. Marshall Date: 1997-08-28 12:42:00 Subject: Central MI report and questions GGs, SWMBO and I took our annual trip to central (bay city) Michigan to visit the ILs last week. Living down here in the tool-deprived south land, I always look forward to the trip as a chance to plunder the spoils of the tool-rich industrial northland. This year, we decided to stay close to home - eschewing side trips to Mattawan, Traverse, etc. as in previous years. On the way up, however, I decided to stop by Dexter, MI to see the Neil Stoll's Old tool shack there. Nice place, but I realized while there that it's just not as much fun to grab what you want off the shelf and plunk down the bucks. The only thing that really tempted me was a box of assorted 113s (and 13s) going for $100 ea. I decided to wait and see what that $100 would get me off the beaten path, and stop by to get the 113 on the way back if nothing better came along. To make it short, with just a little bit of traveling - notably to Tom Gibb's barn near Clare - and a bit of hagging ( I offered one guy $3 for a brace, he examined it carefully and countered with $2) - that same $100 yielded: #4-1/2 type 5 #5 type 9 #7 type 8 #102 #65 One nice rip saw (Clemson of Middletown, NY, anyone know it ?) One rosewood 6" sweep brace. One rosewood 14" sweep brace. (both of these are marked "H.S.B.& Co." - anyone know who this is?) One nice chippewa arrowhead One nice steel bucket (hey, they are TOOLS, aren't they?) All in good condition. Needless to say, I didn't go by to get the #113 on they way back. Just hoping you Galoots in the land of iron and steel appreciate what you've got...... Thanks, Doug Doug Marshall "...and never imagine there is reason to be Greenwood, VA proud of anything that may be accomplished dam4t@v... by patience and sandpaper. " - John Ruskin ---- Start of Message 25031 ---- From: Douglas A. Marshall Date: 1997-08-28 12:49:00 Subject: "B" & "S" castings ? GG's With the acquisition of the #4-1/2, #5,  while in MI, I now have a total of 10 low-knob bench planes, along with a handfull of similar-era block planes and others (#71, #78, shaves). Most of these have a "B" casting mark on the castings, a few have the "s". I know I've seen that these are foundary marks from a foundary Stanley was using at teh beginning of the century. Since I seem to, by default, be turning into a "B" collector, I'd be interested in anything anyone out there can tell me about this foundary, it's location, years of operation, and any other tidbits. Hearty Grunts of Thanks in Advance, Doug Doug Marshall "...and never imagine there is reason to be Greenwood, VA proud of anything that may be accomplished dam4t@v... by patience and sandpaper. " - John Ruskin ---- Start of Message 25032 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 12:58:00 Subject: Re: Central MI report and questions Wow Doug, Nice haul for $100! That certainly makes visiting the IL's a much nicer trip (not to say it's not anyway, I get along better with my IL's than I do with my own). Steve Bussell "Douglas A. Marshall" dam4t@f... on 08/28/97 08:42:24 AM Please respond to dam4t@f... To: oldtools@l... cc: (bcc: Steve Bussell/Iris) Subject: Central MI report and questions GGs, SWMBO and I took our annual trip to central (bay city) Michigan to visit the ILs last week. Living down here in the tool-deprived south land, I always look forward to the trip as a chance to plunder the spoils of the tool-rich industrial northland. This year, we decided to stay close to home - eschewing side trips to Mattawan, Traverse, etc. as in previous years. On the way up, however, I decided to stop by Dexter, MI to see the Neil Stoll's Old tool shack there. Nice place, but I realized while there that it's just not as much fun to grab what you want off the shelf and plunk down the bucks. The only thing that really tempted me was a box of assorted 113s (and 13s) going for $100 ea. I decided to wait and see what that $100 would get me off the beaten path, and stop by to get the 113 on the way back if nothing better came along. To make it short, with just a little bit of traveling - notably to Tom Gibb's barn near Clare - and a bit of hagging ( I offered one guy $3 for a brace, he examined it carefully and countered with $2) - that same $100 yielded: #4-1/2 type 5 #5 type 9 #7 type 8 #102 #65 One nice rip saw (Clemson of Middletown, NY, anyone know it ?) One rosewood 6" sweep brace. One rosewood 14" sweep brace. (both of these are marked "H.S.B.& Co." - anyone know who this is?) One nice chippewa arrowhead One nice steel bucket (hey, they are TOOLS, aren't they?) All in good condition. Needless to say, I didn't go by to get the #113 on they way back. Just hoping you Galoots in the land of iron and steel appreciate what you've got...... Thanks, Doug Doug Marshall "...and never imagine there is reason to be Greenwood, VA proud of anything that may be accomplished dam4t@v... by patience and sandpaper. " - John Ruskin ---- Start of Message 25033 ---- From: Patrick Leach Date: 1997-08-28 13:30:00 Subject: Re: the FTJ Leaning Wedge Article williams@i... (Larry Williams) writes: >Ok, let's deal with that in a second. A lot of people here haven't >read this issue of the "Fine Tool Journal." That's too bad. Not so >much because of this article, but because Clarence Blanchard is >investing so much time, money and energy into making the FTJ the >kind of publication that everyone on this list should be reading. >I sure hope this little shooting match doesn't reflect on Clarence >or the magazine. Don't worry about Clarence and the FTJ. The FTJ has experienced much greater turmoil in its past than whatever light our duking it out publicly casts upon it. And despite its past turmoil, it sur- vived. It'll survive this, too. I think most readers are smart enough to recognize what's happening here in oldtools - a heated debate over what is presented as a scholarly article has erupted. If that's something that can't or shouldn't be discussed here, or even something that you don't wish to be discussed here, then the article's editor, Gary Roberts, shouldn't have been out trolling for hungry fish. >I was starting to wonder if you'd missed the whole point. Rest assure that I don't miss the point. What I do have a tough time understanding is the data you use to 'prove' your point. It's that that is making me scratch my head in confusion. When you feature the bevels on H&R's to bolster your 'thesis', and then you directly mention the bevel of common molding planes, I can't help but to comment on that and wonder what it is you're claiming. Just to make it clear to you - I understand that you wrote an article about leaning wedges on molding planes (a small subset, that you sampled). I do not doubt that wedges lean on planes. It's just your proofs and assumptions about them, along with some other issues regarding molding plane design, that I'm questioning. You specifically mention the bevels on hollows and rounds and why they are there. You also mention fenced molding planes (which would derive no benefit whatsoever with wedges fit to offset mortices). Both of these are fair game for questioning. You also hint at some ground- less standard that planes were stored without wedges. That, too, is open for discussion, and really should be discussed as it can be taken as gospel by some (if you recall, this point confused another reader), which would ultimately lead to an increase in the set of planes that don't have their original wedges or are missing their wedges altogether. >Another side bar like our thing with the blind side bevel of H&R's >is the question of storing the planes with the wedges in or out. >Rather than waste everyone's time, I think I'll just quote the article: > > "Several questions are raised by our assumptions. > > 1. Should moulding planes be stored with their wedges removed, > as was the case in early tool chests as suggested by Goodman > and the Tools and Trades History Society in their book _The Tool > Chest of Benjamin Seaton_? If the tension of the wedge against > the back of the mouth is critical, a wedge left in place for long > periods of time will eventually conform to the shape of the > mortise/escapement, thus eliminating the three-point tension. You aren't even quoting correctly what appeared in the publication. Let's not change the article's content in mid-stream, ok? Be that as it may, the above quotation pretty much discredits any benefit of leaning wedges as you describe them in the article. Your thesis can only work if the planes were stored without their wedges in place. As much as you want to believe that molding planes were stored without their wedges in place, that's simply not true. Hell, even that chump planemaker, Solon Rust, stored his planes as I describe (see Ken Roberts' second volume of _Wooden Planes in 19th Century America_). >As they have evolved, that's true. Now look at one from Granford, >Wooding, William Cogdell or any of the very early makers. There is >usually no bevel at all. No, there is no bevel, but the round of the sole is continued up along the left face of the plane so that it can still remain general purpose enough to cut greater sections of a circle, isn't it? Whether it's a bevel or a rounding, it still acomplishes the same thing. And, since you're using Goodman's as your gospel, recall that the author(s) claim that there is no certainty whether the sides of these early planes are original or whether they were modified at a later date. There simply aren't enough of them around to form a valid conclusion. And what of hollows wrought by the same hands of early makers you mention. How would their left sides be finished, in your opinion? > You and I can argue this all day, but I >think the bevel was originally added to give a visual reference for >the location of the iron. Maybe you think that it was the result of >some great leap or design advance, but I think it's simpler than that. I don't see it as a great leap or design advance, but something that's needed to make the plane work. Sorta like the presence of a fence on a normal molding plane, it's just something that is. If your idea has merit, why, then, don't center beads and reeding planes have a similar bevel? Afterall, they are really no different than a hollow or round during use. Shouldn't they, too, have a side bevel to permit easier viewing of the iron, using your logic? >Hmmm. There was a considerable amount of time from which many >British planes cut less than the 60 degree arc or 1/6 of a circle. 50 degrees, 70 degrees, 66.666 degrees, what's the difference? The planes are still general purpose whatever their sections, pro- vided that they have side bevels. But the fact remains, 1/6 of a circle was the common standard, and it shouldn't be alarming that some deviation should occur among hollows and rounds for the same reason one sees deviations in the layout of a common ogee or other profiles. Here's something else from the article that confuses me: "Our collection is too small to use as a baseline from which to extrapolate definitive answers. We referred to the toe-end profiles in _British Planemakers From 1700, 3rd. Ed., W. Goodman. If you assume the probable location of the inside edge of the mouth and the location of the mortise at the top of the plane, most of the narrow bodied planes made during and after John Cogdell's time (1750 to 1765) display angled wedge and mortise. We also noted that the bevel cut on the lower left side of hollows and rounds seems to appear at the same time. This feature would not seem to be a coincidence." Ignoring the part about the bevel, as it's already been beaten to death by yours truly, I must ask you how you can infer a leaning wedge from simple line drawings, where wedges aren't even drawn? Furthermore, which narrow molding planes in the book are you hypothesizing leaning wedges? I can tell you that it's highly probable each and every one of those molding planes has its wedge terminate in the slot cut into the fence, as I mentioned in another post. They don't need to have their wedge in tension, pressed against the fenced side of the mortice as per your theory, in order for them to deflect the shaving satisfactorily. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Leach Just say I smell quicksand. I'm outta here................ etc. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25034 ---- From: Carl Murphy Date: 1997-08-28 13:40:00 Subject: Re: Yard Sale again At 07:40 AM 8/28/97 -0400, Bramel, Jim wrote: >Bought some wooden planes last night. Three of them are listed here. >Anyone know anything about them? > >Molding plane - S. SLOOP > >Round - W. SCOTT in a box, PITTSB. in a separate but same size box and a > much larger SR in a box. I got other hollows and rounds marked > the same way with the SR. The person I got them from thought this > was for Southern Railway. > >Skewed Rabbet (I think) - MARTEN DOSCHER NEW YORK - is this a maker or user > > owner name? > >Thanks, > >Jim > >Jim Bramel - University of Kentucky - jbram00@p... > >Jim, This is according to A guide to the Makers of American Wooden Planes by Emil and Martyl Pollak, third edition. Marten Doscher-b. 1852 in NY was a New York City hardware and tool dealer, 1879-94-. A Marten Doscher advertisement appeared in an 1887 issue of Iron Age listing himself as a commission hardware dealer at 88 Chambers St., New York, and offering "G.W. Bradley's Edge Tools, Axes, Coopers' Tools, Cleavers, Bush Hooks, Draw Knives, Ship-Carpenters' Tools, &c. Also a full stock of Planes, Brooks' Bright Wire Goods, Washita Stone and Taunton Tack Co.'s Rivets, &c. FF > S. Sloop Samuel Sloop was born in Pennsylvania and made planes in Cincinnati, Ohio, 1829-40. He advertised in the 1837 Western address directory as a "Wood Screw and Plane Manufacturer." (one star) W. Scott William Scott was one of the earliest Pittsburgh, PA, planemakers. He was identified as a planemaker in an 1812 property purchase and was listed as a planemaker in the 1813 city directory and as late as the 1839 directory. Sometime between 1826 and 1837 he moved from Pittsburg City across the Allegheny River to "Allegheny Town" (now known as Pittsburgh's North Side), giving rise to the B imprint. (two stars for W. Scott Pittsbg) (three stars for W. Scott Pittsbg Allegheny Town) Couldn't finnd anything on S.R. Carl Murphy Eastport, Maine >---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25035 ---- From: dam4t@f... Date: 1997-08-28 13:40:00 Subject: Invite to Michigan bound Ga Invite to Michigan bound Galoots 8/28/97 Galoots, Reading Doug's central Michigan trip report and visit to Glenbrier Antiques in Dexter, MI made me suddenly and painfully realize that I have been remiss in not stating that I work about 4 miles and live about 12 miles away from that site, just off of I-94! It would be easy as falling off of the porch (should be thrown, given my lack of hospitality!) to set up a time at least for a cup of coffee or a pint of beer after work. So, here it is. If anyone traveling through Michigan and planning on a Glenbrier Antiques stop or otherwise, please hook up with me for old tools fun and festivities. Randy Forsch rforsch@u... Home 313 475-4273 Work 313 433-3110 -------------------------------------- Date: 8/28/97 8:46 To: Randy Forsch From: dam4t@f... GGs, SWMBO and I took our annual trip to central (bay city) Michigan to visit the ILs last week. Living down here in the tool-deprived south land, I always look forward to the trip as a chance to plunder the spoils of the tool-rich industrial northland. This year, we decided to stay close to home - eschewing side trips to Mattawan, Traverse, etc. as in previous years. On the way up, however, I decided to stop by Dexter, MI to see the Neil Stoll's Old tool shack there. Nice place, but I realized while there that it's just not as much fun to grab what you want off the shelf and plunk down the bucks. The only thing that really tempted me was a box of assorted 113s (and 13s) going for $100 ea. I decided to wait and see what that $100 would get me off the beaten path, and stop by to get the 113 on the way back if nothing better came along. To make it short, with just a little bit of traveling - notably to Tom Gibb's barn near Clare - and a bit of hagging ( I offered one guy $3 for a brace, he examined it carefully and countered with $2) - that same $100 yielded: #4-1/2 type 5 #5 type 9 #7 type 8 #102 #65 One nice rip saw (Clemson of Middletown, NY, anyone know it ?) One rosewood 6" sweep brace. One rosewood 14" sweep brace. (both of these are marked "H.S.B.& Co." - anyone know who this is?) One nice chippewa arrowhead One nice steel bucket (hey, they are TOOLS, aren't they?) All in good condition. Needless to say, I didn't go by to get the #113 on they way back. Just hoping you Galoots in the land of iron and steel appreciate what you've got...... Thanks, Doug Doug Marshall "...and never imagine there is reason to be Greenwood, VA proud of anything that may be accomplished dam4t@v... by patience and sandpaper. " - John Ruskin ---- Start of Message 25036 ---- From: Jay Sutherland Date: 1997-08-28 13:46:00 Subject: Re: Homeless on the Web Thanks so much to the two dozen or so Galoots who have offered storage space for my web pages. I'll be in touch with a few of you in the next two or three weeks regarding a transfer, etc. Jay -- Jay Sutherland |/| ** Gwen, jump. Good puppy! 113 Phillips Hall (,,) ** Ithaca, NY 14853 607/255-5034 o/ ---* gwenpup@i... jay@e... c==____(_ http://peta.ee.cornell http://peta.ee.cornell.edu/~jay/ \= .edu/~jay/gwen/ ---- Start of Message 25037 ---- From: Jay Sutherland Date: 1997-08-28 13:55:00 Subject: Oldtools in Alaska Galoots: In a few days I'll be heading off for Alaska to take a break, visit friends, and of course check out the wilderness. Are there any good sites for old tools there, either sources or historical places? Also, advice on what to see or do there is welcomed. Thanks! Jay P.S. I know there are some old tools up there, because a friend of mine sent me a rusty Stanley #36 that someone dropped in the Yukon River years ago. Forget panning for gold--I'm going panning for planes! -- Jay Sutherland |/| ** Gwen, jump. Good puppy! 113 Phillips Hall (,,) ** Ithaca, NY 14853 607/255-5034 o/ ---* gwenpup@i... jay@e... c==____(_ http://peta.ee.cornell http://peta.ee.cornell.edu/~jay/ \= .edu/~jay/gwen/ ---- Start of Message 25038 ---- From: Karl W. Sanger Date: 1997-08-28 14:08:00 Subject: List Bickers - Motivation Larry Williams wrote: >who hopes that, in the future, when someone on the list goes to >great lengths to discredit something people will ask why< I second the thought!! But, first understand I'm not shooshing anyone's thoughts, opinion or commentary. The "debate" that lead to Larry's comment is a proper activity for human conduct. Politeness or even mud, blood, gore and beer are fine tactics for the fight - er, debate. I'll join any argument I can - and I guess I just did. What I am submitting is that the "ask why" question - for the motivation for discrediting should not be limited to scholarly efforts. Included in the list of this Lists discreditings are collectors, Norm, conservation or "repainting", old saws versus a new saw, and tools with pigtails. Greed, ignorance, and ego have to be among the major causes. Well, at least this List does it more politely than others. That's good. It makes life on the List easier, a friendlier place to learn and share. And for those truly interested in learning about old tools - their use, the collecting and the tool fraternity that fulfills the popular pursuit, looking for the "hidden agenda" is critical to achieve a Summa Cum Laude. Fortunately for a "C" student like me, every time I submit a wise-*ss note to this list, I know precisely which one or all of those three or other causes made me do it. For those who don't see hidden agendas and believe that I'm cynical in my observations, I submit as my rock platform, a quote from George Bernard Shaw - "The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who haven't got it." Karl - who sees "discrediting" as an educational service, informative in many aspects ---- Start of Message 25039 ---- From: Glen Rea Date: 1997-08-28 14:12:00 Subject: Re: Rocky Mountain Meet Stu Ritter wrote: > > Gentle Folk; > > Well now..Jason is coming (the infamous galootapalooza producer), > Pierre and Stu will be there...(them's the physicist and the mechanic). > Who else gonna be there. Any of you other list-o-phytes gonna > make it??? > I'm planning on being there. -- Glen Rea Longmont, CO ---- Start of Message 25040 ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1997-08-28 14:11:00 Subject: Tool sources Galoots-- Doing a beta runthrough on Tom Price's newly minted Web page (I'll let Tom announce the URL when he's happy with it), I was directed to a link to the Electronic Neanderthal's sub-page on "Tool Sources," upgraded August 25, 1997. It now provides an updated and close-to-definitive response to that eternal lament: WHERE DO I FIND TOOLS? Check it out, at: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~alf/en/tools.html Tom Holloway, who really *must* stop looking for tools, and start making things. ---- Start of Message 25041 ---- From: David Hunkins Date: 1997-08-28 14:15:00 Subject: Re: Yard Sale again At 07:40 AM 8/28/97 -0400, Bramel, Jim wrote: >Bought some wooden planes last night. Three of them are listed here. >Anyone know anything about them? > >Molding plane - S. SLOOP > >Round - W. SCOTT in a box, PITTSB. in a separate but same size box and a > much larger SR in a box. I got other hollows and rounds marked > the same way with the SR. The person I got them from thought this > was for Southern Railway. > >Skewed Rabbet (I think) - MARTEN DOSCHER NEW YORK - is this a maker or user Jim, Sloop is a Cincinatti maker name, Scott (nice find!) is one of the earliest c.1810? Pittsburgh makers, and Doscher (quite common) was a NYCity hardware dealer in the last quarter of the 19th. c. Interesting info on the "SR" ... not often that initials they can be attributed to some-one/thing specific. A "rubbing" and a note to Mike Humphrey might be in order. He did a piece in a recent Catalog of American Wooden Planes on initial marks that we know something about. David ---- Start of Message 25042 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 14:18:00 Subject: Re: Central MI report and questions Gee Doug, Being a Michigander myself, I really hate it when a vacationer comes in and does better in a few days than I do in months. How come I never run into these places? Just my luck. Congratulations anyway. Dennis ---- Start of Message 25043 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 14:31:00 Subject: Parallel action pliers with side cutter Anyone know where I can get one these? My dad had one (a Barnard??) that was advertised as having a one ton bite. TIA ---- Start of Message 25044 ---- From: Bill Clouser Date: 1997-08-28 14:55:00 Subject: Re: Rocky Mountain Meet On Aug 28, 8:12am, Glen Rea wrote: > Subject: Re: Rocky Mountain Meet > Stu Ritter wrote: > > > > Gentle Folk; > > > > Well now..Jason is coming (the infamous galootapalooza producer), > > Pierre and Stu will be there...(them's the physicist and the mechanic). > > Who else gonna be there. Any of you other list-o-phytes gonna > > make it??? > > > > I'm planning on being there. I think I can make it - red hat and all. - Bill (Fort Collins CO) -- ---- Start of Message 25045 ---- From: Newbold Date: 1997-08-28 15:07:00 Subject: Re: Saws jbram00@p... (Bramel, Jim) asked about his two saws.... >Got two saws last night. > >One is a beautiful little Atkins, 20" long. There are some pieces of the >etching/engravings that I just cannot make out. In a circle around the >Atkins logo there is "ATKINS ALWAYS ????D". Cannot make out the third word >except for the D. Also under all of this logo, address, patent info, etc. >is what appears to be "DAMASKEENED MARK". Is this really DAMASKEENED and >is maybe TRADE to the left of it? Gave $3.00 for this one. > I have not seen any like that, but the one Atkins I have is a nice saw. >The other is Disston. Marked - > > DISSTON > >1840 1940 > > (Shape of Airplane) > (Keystone) > (Scales) >NINETEEN FORTY SPECIAL >Henry Disston & Sons Inc. Philadelphia > >Is this one anything special as saws go? I have a similar saw. The logo is not very readable, but is does say Centennial Special. Apparently this was in honor of 100 years of Disston saw production. The saw cuts very nicely even though the multi-piece handle is held together by a through bolt and has zero remaining original finish. The saw is also special to me since my father used it to make houses, including those houses where there was no electricity and all cuts were by hand. My father used to race his boss in cutting rafters with that saw. My Dad usually won the races. Oh yeah, I got it for nothing. :-) While we are talking about cheap saws, I should report that at a recent flea market, I found a 9 pt cross cut saw with a cracked carved apple handle and a perfect nib. It was sharp and cuts like a dream, better than some of the Disstons already on my saw rack. Unfortunately, some weannie had removed two saw nuts, including the logo nut. :-( Oh yeah, the blade is rust free, but dark and the Diamond Saw logo is just barely visible under the right light conditions. So, did I overpay at $1? ;^) Charlie Who cannot resist a good, cheap saw. ---- Start of Message 25046 ---- From: Robert Brazile Date: 1997-08-28 15:17:00 Subject: Re: List Bickers - Motivation Karl said, quite reasonably: >I submit as my rock platform, a quote from George Bernard Shaw - "The >power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who >haven't got it." Of course, one could argue that George's hidden agenda was to defend his cynicism. :-) Robert "Cynicism is often called the power of accurate observation by cynics." -Robert Brazile, just now. ---- Start of Message 25047 ---- From: James Foster Date: 1997-08-28 15:22:00 Subject: Re: wages at the forge Tom Johnson wrote: This is just one of those bits of trivia. Watching public TV the other night and there was a sword-maker from England both demonstrating his craft and telling some history re. weapon-making. His estimate was that a good sword cost a warrior about $20,000.00 (it might have been pounds..not sure) but a LOT of dough in any event! I hope all of our smithy's are making those kinds of wages.... it's obviously a LOT of hours at the forge getting a blade into shape..... worth being compensated well for... Wish I'd seen it. Wonder how the price was figured out. One contributing factor would, of course, be the high cost of getting the steel in the first place. Modern smiths don't have that problem. The better forges and trip hammers also make a lot of the work go faster. Still, a good sword can be several thousand dollars on up. The work of the top smiths like Jim Hrisoulas is in high demand. Don't know what the sword he did for the Emir of Kuiwait went for, but it wasn't cheap. If you like blades you should page through his books. He might have a web page too. You can get a servicable, plain jane sword from other bread and butter makers for around $500. More on the old tools aspect: So what would be the price of some of the common, simple molding planes of the early 1800's translated into today's prices? Don't remember if Patrick or anyone else ever posted that type of info. 'Course, the value will depend on how you figure the monetary equivalency, but ballpark figures would still be interesting. ---- Start of Message 25048 ---- From: Bill Clouser Date: 1997-08-28 15:22:00 Subject: Vikings? On Aug 28, 7:09am, Garrett Spitzer wrote: > Subject: Vikings? > This whole thing sounds like some "snipe" joke... sinking Dutchmen.... Snipe is something else entirely. Take a look at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/1850 http://www.fortnet.org/Audubon/snipe.html and, of course http://www.snipe.org/ There's also the famous section of "Treasure Island", "Indeed, could anyone be more entirely lost than I? When the gun fired, how should I dare to go down to the boats among those fiends, still smoking from their crime? Would not the first of them who saw me wring my neck like a snipe's?" So, this "snipe" concept seems to have no Viking relationship to me. > A serious question ... is this similar to what you do to stop a crack in > metal; you drill a hole at the tip of the crack. The stress at the end > of a crack is directly proportional to the radius of curvature at the > vary tip; thus if you increase the radius by drilling a hole at the end, > you greatly reduce the stress. Ah, the "boring a hole to stop a crack issue" is raised again. We did discuss this on the porch some time ago, and the consensus was that it doesn't work in wood because wood is an anisotropic material and will tend to split along the grain, pretty much ignoring the presence of the hole. These holes are still used by some though, and I think they can be effective because they evacuate an area of the wood providing a bending moment for two sides of a slot to compress when driven into another piece of material. A wedged, locked handle in a neandermallet is one example where such a hole might be effective. - Bill (Just made a new mallet the other night in fact, with a new wedging condept. I might bring it up here sometime.) -- ---- Start of Message 25049 ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1997-08-28 15:33:00 Subject: Re: Wood Screw I have to say that I agree with Carl here.... I've seen all kinds of requests for sources and info during the month with no "hand-slapping".... In fact, I'm guilty! I once asked for sources for jewelers saw blades and got lots of helpful replies, public and private; no-one seemed to mind a bit. How 'bout a little grace here for those gray areas.... I mean, he wasn't exactly asking for a type 1 #49 or something.... I thought my request was for information, Maybe I went about it wrong with the (WTB) in front of my subject, but if your going to slap someones hand, maybe it should be posted so all can see, not privately. maybe we all can learn from the mistakes. and maybe we should let the list mother do the slapping. ---- Start of Message 25050 ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 1997-08-28 15:33:00 Subject: Re: List Bickers - Motivation On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Robert Brazile wrote: > Karl said, quite reasonably: > > >I submit as my rock platform, a quote from George Bernard Shaw - "The > >power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who > >haven't got it." > > Of course, one could argue that George's hidden agenda was to defend > his cynicism. :-) > > Robert > > "Cynicism is often called the power of accurate observation by cynics." > > -Robert Brazile, just now. Nice one, Robert. And my favorite quote of myself: "Luck is just opportunity meeting luck" The problem with lists, newsletters and journals is that anything written takes on an academic importance that almost always outweighs the intention. Without contributors, journals have no content. Without content, we'd have no arguments. Without arguments, we wouldn't have any information exchange. And without information exchange, we'd all still be releasing the damned lever caps on our planes before trying to set the depth adjustment. So, sometimes when we disagree, we get a little chuffed. We're big people, we can deal with it. The first few posts on this went way over my head, but now that I'm paying attention, I'd personally hate to see it die without further discussion, by anyone taking their ball and going home. One of the most difficult things to figure in any historicial pursuit is why things were done the way they were done, much less how. I appreciate Karl yanking our chains now and then (heh heh, you should see me yank his in e-mail), and he and others are responsible for me reconsidering my view of collectors (not that I'd ever admit it on my web site... ok, maybe I will someday). Paddy, trying to figure out how to adapt his routah into a viking cutter ---- Start of Message 25051 ---- From: Glen Rea Date: 1997-08-28 15:35:00 Subject: List Bickers - Motivation (fwd) Gentile Galoots: I guess I want to throw in my $0.02 here (probably worth a lot less than that). Keep in mind that I have no wooden planes and have as much experience with them. I had only the article and resulting discussion to form an opinion from. I know Karl only from discussions here, Larry only from his article and discussions here, and Patrick from discussions here and by email and as a customer. Karl W. Sanger wrote: > > Larry Williams wrote: > > >who hopes that, in the future, when someone on the list goes to > >great lengths to discredit something people will ask why< > > I second the thought!! I second the thought also but probably in a different way than Karl. I never saw the discussion (particularly Patrick's comments) as an attempt to discredit anyone. I did read the article, which I thought was very interesting, well done, and a cause for thought. One of my thoughts at the time was that the sample size was a bit small for my tastes and wondered what a bigger or different sample would yield. Patrick provided a different sample and indicated that the hypothesis may need some re-work. I also saw the angle of lean as a bit small (as an engineer, I would call the angle "down in the noise", meaning that this much lean could be a result of process variation due to the right-handedness or ham-fistedness of the plane maker, his assistants and apprentices). This is a point that Patrick made. The discussion on bevels sounded to me like an old-fashioned disagreement and was left at that. I'm not saying that I agree with Patrick or Larry in any case. I wish only to say that the points made by Patrick seemed to be to refute some (somewhat absolute) statements made in the article and by others afterwards. Larry's comment struck a bad cord with me as this is how I tend to react to someone telling me that I may have made an error in thinking or that they disagree with my thoughts or actions. We need to be careful to inspect feedback from others relative to our discussion and keep it seperate from our and their ego. This also applies to comments made during a discussion. > But, first understand I'm not shooshing anyone's thoughts, opinion > or commentary. The "debate" that lead to Larry's comment is a proper > activity for human conduct. Politeness or even mud, blood, gore and beer Ok, Patrick will never be considered politically-correct or kinder and gentiler (my scottish/irish heritage leads me down the same paths). He is willing to state his opinion/experience, even when it disagrees with someone (refreshing thing in this disgusting age of political correctness). I appreciate Larry being willing to continue the discussion started by the article and share his opinions and experiences with us. I appreciate everyone on this list that are willing to share their idea, experiences, and opinions. I wish I knew half or even 10% of what the people on this list know about tools, old or new. [snip] > Karl - who sees "discrediting" as an educational service, > informative in many aspects Both discrediting and claims of discrediting both as an educational service I gues the point I've been rambling about is that we need the type of discussion that has been taking place on this topic, even if it includes major disagreement. Please try to keep comments like the above and any that might cause the above out of the discussion as best we can. But please PLEASE jump in and tell us what you think or have seen. We need all opinions and comments, even if they are flat wrong like mine usually are. These discussions/arguments/sightings are why we are here. OBTW, you guys are doing your Vikings all wrong! ;-) -- Glen Rea - who will now slink back to his dark corner of the porch to lurk quietly again ---- Start of Message 25052 ---- From: Rodgers Charles Date: 1997-08-28 16:35:00 Subject: On The Cheap GGs: I "heard" a comment here on the porch the other day about a little trick I use and was heartened to see that I'm not the only one who does it (although, I must add, a little humbled to find I didn't discover it). A couple of recent posts talk about using disposable utility knife blades as mini-scrapers. I inherited a box of 100 blades (along with assorted other items including 50 lbs of drywall screws) when my son decided to get out of the flooring business and go back to school. Seems he emptied the back end of his cluttered Cherokee in my garage and told me to keep what I wanted and toss the rest. Anyway, I've found that they last surprisingly long as a light duty scraper and work better than I had expected. Not the ticket for large areas, but ya can't beat'em for tight spots and small areas. I usually use them "free-hand" but have been known to grab a fresh one with the small locking pliers and go at it. Anyone else found galootish applications for non-old tools that they would care to share?? Charlie ---- Start of Message 25053 ---- From: Douglas A. Marshall Date: 1997-08-28 15:51:00 Subject: Central MI auction alert! GG's I almost forgot - You galoots in MI might want to check this out. Tom Gibbs, of Loomis, who I got some good, cheap stuff off of has been dealing tools for about 20 years. During that time, his best customer was a neighbor, a Stanley collector who got first choice on all the prime stuff Tom came across. Well, the neighbor succumbed to Emphysema at a tragic 49, and much of his estate will be auctioned off on site in early Oct. Tom says that the guy running the auction is a putz - especially clueless about tools. Some of you guys in the area might want to check it out further. If you score anything nice, a small (say #2 size) cut to your source would be appreciated ;-). E-mail me if you want more info - it kills me that I won't be there for the sale, but maybe some lucky galoot will do well. Doug Doug Marshall "...and never imagine there is reason to be Greenwood, VA proud of anything that may be accomplished dam4t@v... by patience and sandpaper. " - John Ruskin ---- Start of Message 25054 ---- From: Robert Ibach Date: 1997-08-28 15:53:00 Subject: Texas Galoots If anyone is going to Canton this weekend, and you'd like to see some post drills, ping me and I'll tell you where to look. (At least I think they are post drills.) I don't know if they are complete or functional. One was marked $30 and another $40. There was one more with no price. All in the same place. Bob Ibach Dallas Theological Seminary rdi@t... ---- Start of Message 25055 ---- From: Randy Roeder Date: 1997-08-28 16:30:00 Subject: Re: List Bickers - Motivation I'm enjoying the leaning wedges controversy. It's so academic. Someone observes a phenomenon, sees a pattern and attempts to understand it. He develops a working hypothesis and reports it to colleagues. Disagreement is often swift and visceral. Over time, more data will be collected and a consensus will develop regarding the relative merits of the idea. After consensus has been reached, there will remain critics, who will continue to look for fallacies in the argument. The repaint/don't repaint argument, on the other hand, is purely political. Proponents of a viewpoint try to influence others with an eye to influencing behavior to a specific end -- in this case, maintaining the widespread availability of collectibles with characteristics perceived as desirable. Randy Roeder Who liked the Frank Klausz jig for regluing broken totes--but barfed at the buff & repaint. ---- Start of Message 25056 ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1997-08-28 16:40:00 Subject: Re: On The Cheap At 11:35 AM -0500 8/28/97, Rodgers Charles wrote: [snip] >Anyone else found galootish >applications for non-old tools that they would care to share?? Sure. Table of t*bles*w --> lapping/ScarySharp plate. Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 25057 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 16:37:00 Subject: Re: Saws The "AAA" is the Atkins slogan--"Atkins Always Ahead". "Damaskeened" was a treatment claimed by Atkins to be used on/in steel blade of saw. The "Airplane" logo on the Disston Keystone saw tells us it is the K-4 "Airmaster" model (.1935-) The 1840 Disston 1940 is the Disston Cenntenial Anniversary saw (celebrating Disston founding in 1840 their 100th anniversary). --ErvSaws On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:00:31 -0400 (EDT) jbram00@p... (Bramel, Jim) writes: >Got two saws last night. > >One is a beautiful little Atkins, 20" long. There are some pieces of >the >etching/engravings that I just cannot make out. In a circle around >the >Atkins logo there is "ATKINS ALWAYS ????D". Cannot make out the third >word >except for the D. Also under all of this logo, address, patent info, >etc. >is what appears to be "DAMASKEENED MARK". Is this really DAMASKEENED >and >is maybe TRADE to the left of it? Gave $3.00 for this one. > >The other is Disston. Marked - > > DISSTON > >1840 1940 > > (Shape of Airplane) > (Keystone) > (Scales) >NINETEEN FORTY SPECIAL >Henry Disston & Sons Inc. Philadelphia > >Is this one anything special as saws go? > >Couldn't get this one cheap. Had to (didn't have to bud did) give >$8.00 for >this one. > >Thanks, > >Jim > >Jim Bramel - University of Kentucky - jbram00@p... > >---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25058 ---- From: Pierre Fogal Date: 1997-08-28 16:37:00 Subject: Re: Leaning wedges Addressed to: drhunk@c... oldtools@l... ** Reply to note from drhunk@c... Thu, 28 Aug 1997 02:16:10 -0700 Most of David's thoughtful article is snipped. But he does raise an important issue here, for the possible definition of this > I'd be interested in a regional correlation or a pattern that fits into a > certain time period. I'm not seeing one. Maybe something will fall into > place after everyone examines their shelves. I'd also be interested in > hearing Larry (or anyone else who has made a molding plane) compare the > process of making one both ways. Maybe someone who made many planes each > day didn't feel the need for this "shortcut". Seems like it might be a > quicker route to a good quality fit, but maybe it's not at all? I'd like to > hear ... hell, I might have to finally try making a plane myself to carry > on the family tradition :-) Glen Rea has also commented earlier that as an engineer, he thinks a small angle is basically "in the noise" which could well be true. However, if this is the case, we ought to get a kind of Gaussian distribution of lean if we sample enough planes. If that peaks at zero, then statistically the arguement that the lean is accidental would have to carry a lot of weight. In other words, if it is accidental, looking at a large number of planes would show leans of varying amounts in _both_ directions. If it isn't then the distribution would be skewed, peaking at the predominate amount of lean. Collectively, we own a large number of planes. We can answer this question in a statistical sense at least .... Regards, Pierre Gosh this is beginning to sound like my day job .... Dr. Pierre Fogal Physics Dept., University of Denver Denver, CO, USA. ---- Start of Message 25059 ---- From: Gary Ilmanen Date: 1997-08-28 16:53:00 Subject: Viking versus Dutchmen On 27 Aug 97, Esther Heller, ready for FMM, wrote: > (Ray M:) > > > > I've been thinking about this. I have some really nice salvaged (very old) > > wood with _original_vikings_ in place. I was wondering if it might be > > possible to excavate the grave. > > When you remove the viking from its grave, please be _very careful_ > not to damage the textiles used as graveclothes... I think what Ray found was lumber patched with the Dutchman. The Dutchman is fairly well-known, also called a Butterfly Patch. Looks like a double-dovetail key: ________ / / / / / /______ That is laid in its 'grave' -- a matching recess in the material across the split. On the other hand, the Viking technique is complementary to the Dutchman. It involves removing material, not inserting it. You lose the decorative element, but maintain functionality by relieving the stresses instead of restraining movement. John Gunterman likes to use these because they balance the Ki of the wood and leave the piece in inner harmony. And Esther... I don't mind you making fun of such a serious subject-- but it is the Dutchman with the raiments; Vikings go naked! ;> -- CardPuncher: Gary "Snick" Ilmanen - Riverside, California, USA Other Email: Snick@A... Websites: http://www.Artwork.net http://www.kiwi.net/~saga http://www.adgrafix.com/info/gilmanen Don't miss these sites: http://www.LeatherPlus.com http://www.useful.com Pithy Quote: Exaggeration is a billion times worse than understatement. Disparate Quote: Avoid cliches like the plague. (They're old hat.) ---- Start of Message 25060 ---- From: Larry Williams Date: 1997-08-28 17:13:00 Subject: Tulsa/SWTCA bound GG's, Got the van loaded and am on the way to the SWTCA Fall Meet in Tulsa. Have a boat load of old iron priced like you only hope to find on FMM, a little old wood and some new wood that I'm really excited about showing. Forgot and left the hat in the shop though and I'm not going back after it. Hope to see a bunch there! Larry Williams Eureka Springs, Arkansas ---- Start of Message 25061 ---- From: Northstar Lumber Date: 1997-08-28 17:16:00 Subject: Destroyed Mailing list Hello Group, I am writing this note as a bit of a plea for help. I have been running a sales group on the internet for Northstar Lumber. I havein error (thanks to a wonderful duplicate finder) destroyed the ony copy of the original mailing list in eudora. If you were on my list would you be kindenough top e-mail me a copy of your e-mail address so we can continueour mailings... e-mail: nrthstrlbr@a... Thanks in advance Ernest Drost Northstar Lumber ---- Start of Message 25062 ---- From: John Gunterman Date: 1997-08-28 17:18:00 Subject: Re: Destroyed Mailing list At 01:16 PM 8/28/97 -0400, Northstar Lumber wrote: >Hello Group, I am writing this note as a bit of a plea for help. Serves you right you lously SPAMing Bahstud! As far as I'm Concerned, You sir, may go straight to heck. >Ernest Drost >Northstar Lumber Hey List-Mom's, I though we got rid of this %*&@#$ Loser... What Gives? ---- Start of Message 25063 ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 1997-08-28 17:27:00 Subject: Viking/Router Jig (fwd) Ray McCaleb, the ever-vigilant one, sent me this. Now I know that we do not want to dwell on power tools here, but I just wanted to pass this along as clear evidence that some of the old ways, no matter how obscure, are still relevant. Skol! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Paddy wrote: "Paddy, trying to figure out how to adapt his routah into a viking cutter" I know we're not allowed to discuss such on the list, so hence the e-mail. To quote the most recent Tr*ndl*n*s catalog (Vol. 138, issue 693; Wednesday and Thursday of the Third Week of August, 1997): "#SNYP669 Universal Viking Adapter - This remarkable jig attaches to any 7 1/2 HP (220v) or larger router having a standard 13 3/16" base plate. The precision machined casting made of the highest quality, aircraft grade, beryllium weighs a mere 13 pounds and can be attached by any qualified engineer in less than two hours using the optional tool kit listed below and Auxillary Universal Jig Adapter Kit (see page 762). Once attached, the amateur or professional woodworker alike (with proper training and certification) can accomplish the the most functionally elegant wood related procedure, THE VIKING, heretofore executed only by master craftsmen of old utilizing antiquated techniques and tools, mallet and chisel. This remarkable device is in limited supply and on a first-come first-served basis. $799.95" So, Paddy, there you have it, why reinvent the wheel? ---- end forwarded message ---- ---- Start of Message 25064 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 17:34:00 Subject: Re:List Bickers - Motivation Dunno about motivation, but from my perspective this is some of the best discussions to hit the list in recent months (maybe years?). I just want to thank Larry, Patrick, David, Don, Todd, Gary and others who have participated and provided such stimulating discussion. In my mind, this is what this list ought to be, along with a good sprinkling of shop experiences/problems. Thanks, guys - Mike ---- Start of Message 25065 ---- From: John Gunterman Date: 1997-08-28 17:14:00 Subject: Re: Viking versus Dutchmen At 09:53 AM 8/28/97 -0700, you wrote: On the other hand, the Viking technique is complementary to the Dutchman. It involves removing material, not inserting it. Precisely! sort-of.... the dutchman/viking technique you ADD a dutchman but when you lay the vike you are removing material at the same tim thus reching an eqaulibrum between the two..... (if you add in one place you must take away from somewhere else. elsewise the peice will be inbalanced. John Gunterman likes to use these because they balance the Ki of the wood and leave the piece in inner harmony. Bingo! for ever action there is an equal re-action... and thus the complimentary Viking/Dutchman procedure. I have never had moch luck doing either in-duh-vidually... but together thay copliment each other rather nicely... John It's a Ying/Yang thing. ---- Start of Message 25066 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 17:14:00 Subject: Re:Tulsa/SWTCA bound Anyone have any info on this meet - this is the first I've heard of it. Is it too late? (guess that's what I get for not being a SWTCA member :^( And who do I contact to join SWTCA? Thanks - Mike ---- Start of Message 25067 ---- From: Darrell LaRue Date: 1997-08-28 17:43:00 Subject: Speaking of Dutchmen... Galoots, All this talk of dutchmen has fired a stray synapse in my brain, and some interesting memories bubbled to the surface. I was in England (on business) a few years ago, and had an opportunity to take a day-trip. I went to Leeds Castle. A nice place; apparently it was restored in the 1920's by craftsmen who were trained by guys who learned the trade in the mid-19th century. Wonderful work! The dutchmen I saw were used to join the floorboards end to end in the big dining room. Ebony plank floors, no less. Everybody else was ohh-ing and ahh-ing the furniture and the decor, but I was walking around looking at the floor (yah dumb galoot!). Working ebony must be *really* hard on the tools. I wonder if the dutchmen were covering sunken nail heads, and were they 'through' or just inlet? Does anyone know more about this kind of flooring technique? Or do I have to go back to Leeds with a crowbar (kidding :^)? Darrell "That guy had a wooden head!" "Really? I thought he was just tense." Where the Buffalo Roam PS- The carvings in the ceiling beams were really nice, too. Those guys were good, no doubt about that. -- Darrell LaRue Oakville Ontario, Canada Opinions expressed herein are personal and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. ---- Start of Message 25068 ---- From: Ray McCaleb Date: 1997-08-28 17:48:00 Subject: RE: Leaning wedges Pierre wrote: In other words, if it is accidental, looking at a large number of planes would show leans of varying amounts in _both_ directions." I'm not convinced of this. My "Mr. Coffee" is getting old. A nice patina is developing...on the front side. The side next to the wall is like new. Orientation has a direct correlation to the observed characteristic. I'm not certain how the old timers oriented the plane body during construction, or if that may have affected/effected any characteristic. Ray Ray McCaleb (706) 369-5678; FAX (706) 369-6429 ray_mccaleb@o... Office of Information/Instructional Technology Business and Finance Systems University System of Georgia -----Original Message----- From: Pierre Fogal [SMTP:pfogal@g...] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 1997 1:52 PM To: oldtools@l... Subject: Re: Leaning wedges Addressed to: drhunk@c... oldtools@l... ** Reply to note from drhunk@c... Thu, 28 Aug 1997 02:16:10 -0700 Most of David's thoughtful article is snipped. But he does raise an important issue here, for the possible definition of this > I'd be interested in a regional correlation or a pattern that fits into a > certain time period. I'm not seeing one. Maybe something will fall into > place after everyone examines their shelves. I'd also be interested in > hearing Larry (or anyone else who has made a molding plane) compare the > process of making one both ways. Maybe someone who made many planes each > day didn't feel the need for this "shortcut". Seems like it might be a > quicker route to a good quality fit, but maybe it's not at all? I'd like to > hear ... hell, I might have to finally try making a plane myself to carry > on the family tradition :-) Glen Rea has also commented earlier that as an engineer, he thinks a small angle is basically "in the noise" which could well be true. However, if this is the case, we ought to get a kind of Gaussian distribution of lean if we sample enough planes. If that peaks at zero, then statistically the arguement that the lean is accidental would have to carry a lot of weight. If it isn't then the distribution would be skewed, peaking at the predominate amount of lean. Collectively, we own a large number of planes. We can answer this question in a statistical sense at least .... Regards, Pierre Gosh this is beginning to sound like my day job .... Dr. Pierre Fogal Physics Dept., University of Denver Denver, CO, USA. ---- Start of Message 25069 ---- From: Gil Chesbro Date: 1997-08-28 17:48:00 Subject: Re: List Bickers - Motivation GG's, I'm afraid my own experience leads me to a different conclusion; viz, a person's motivation tells you nothing about the veracity of his arguments. So what if someone is motivated solely by cupidity (a motive I attribute to no one on this list)? He may still be right, while those who embrace altruism may be wrong. Certainly one would expect that base motives may seduce a man into making specious arguments. It is not, however, proof of error. I, for one, would rather see arguments refuted by reason and evidence rather than by the insinuation of base motives. "And as for those of you who disagree with me . . . well, we all know why, don't we?" -Gil, who has learned a lot about wooden planes from this debate. ---- Start of Message 25070 ---- From: Esther Heller Date: 1997-08-28 17:44:00 Subject: Re: Destroyed Mailing list Our spammer, who knows a back door when he sees one, writes: > Hello Group, I am writing this note as a bit of a plea for help. I have > been running a sales group on the internet for Northstar Lumber. I > havein error (thanks to a wonderful duplicate finder) destroyed the ony > copy of the original mailing list in eudora. If you were on my list > would you be kindenough top e-mail me a copy of your e-mail address so > we can continueour mailings... Apologies for spamming 2 months ago are useless when you come back and do it yet one more time, and not even on FMM. I notice you are now keeping _2_ email addresses? Getting a bunch of junk mail on one are we? Now you know why real computer nerds believe in backups. Esther, seriously ticked because she got what sounded like a real apology the first time.... ---- Start of Message 25071 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 17:51:00 Subject: Re: Leaning wedges In a message dated 97-08-28 06:59:28 EDT, drhunk@c... (David Hunkins) writes: << Maybe something will fall into place after everyone examines their shelves. >> My shelves aren't nearly as well stocked as some that have been mentioned, but I've looked over my 40-50 molders, and the findings are fairly consistent with what others have seen. I have more leaning wedges in H&R's than anything else, but then, I've got more small H&R's than other profiles in small sizes. Several odd H&R's in small sizes lean, while the larger sizes don't. In my set of Appletons, pairs #2, 4, and 6 lean, while pairs #8 and up do not. My two smallest bead planes lean, but the larger ones do not. My smallest cove plane leans, the others don't. The largest leaners I have are an Appleton 3/4 quarter-round, and a steep profile quirk ogee and astragal in a fairly narrow body of around 1 1/4 inches wide . Its my smallest complex molder, and none of the other complex molders lean. None ot the planes seem to have a convex curve to the back wall, or curved wedges. I have to think that if wedges were leaned on purpose, it was because the planemaker wanted to stay away from the weakened area of wood above the escapement on his smaller planes, to prevent splitting it out and having to start all over again. Or to keep his smaller planes from coming back to him when a customer whacked it too hard with his mallet and the mortice split out. I really can't see where morticing the wedge in from the left would be an advantage in keeping the shavings from getting behind the wedge. If that were the purpose, wouldn't it be better to angle it in from the right, so it would be pointing away from the path of the shaving, rather than into it ? I can't see the oldtimers putting a wedge in at an angle to put it under tension either. They would have known that sooner or later it would take the set of the curve and loose its tension, or at least be a pain to take in and out. Ray ---- Start of Message 25072 ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 1997-08-28 17:58:00 Subject: Spam (Was Destroyed Mailing List)) This is what I sent to Mr. Drost, and both of his ISP's. Please forward all further inquires to Ralph and me, directly. Thanks, Paddy - earning his listmom appreciation pin today. ------------ Hi Ernie, Thanks for spamming our list again, AFTER we had banned you, AND reported you to your ISP's. I guess you were able to circumvent our ban on your account by going to a new ISP. Such is the life of the miscreant spammer. To the postmasters, Mr. Drost has a long history of spamming newsgroups and at least three listervs, including this one several times. He has been asked to cease and desist, yet refuses. This latest ruse, that he has lost his e-mailing list is a thinly-veiled attempt at trolling for more customers. Notice how he managed to squeak in the fact that he's an internet lumber dealer in his "innocent" plea for someone to send him his e-mail address. Ernie, you're not fooling anyone, and to put it quite frankly, you are a loser. Patrick Olguin - Listowner, Oldtools@l... On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Northstar Lumber wrote: > Hello Group, I am writing this note as a bit of a plea for help. I have > been running a sales group on the internet for Northstar Lumber. I > havein error (thanks to a wonderful duplicate finder) destroyed the ony > copy of the original mailing list in eudora. If you were on my list > would you be kindenough top e-mail me a copy of your e-mail address so > we can continueour mailings... > > e-mail: nrthstrlbr@a... > > Thanks in advance > > Ernest Drost > Northstar Lumber > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25073 ---- From: Bill Clouser Date: 1997-08-28 17:58:00 Subject: neandermallet - new wedge design GG's, I've come up with a slight modification to the neandermallet design which has worked very well for me on a sample size of 1 mallet so far. I have some left over teak from a project I'm working on. It's very old, with interlocking dense grain, and heavy. I realized that one of the chunks was mallet-head sized, so I decided to make the standard, slightly wedge-shaped, square-sided mallet out of this chunk. When it came time to make and insert the handle, however, I had to balk a little. I thought about the effort that it would take me to bore/chisel out the tapered rectangular hole in the head to accept the standard wedged handle design, and looked at my 3-1/2" thick mallet head, and decided that I would rather do something else with my time, namely work on the project which I needed the mallet for in the first place. So, I decided to simply bore a 1" hole through the head and turn an appropriately matching spindle on the end of the yet unmade handle. I intended to use a wedge in the end of the handle after driving it into the head, probably enlarging the hole in the top of the head first to accommodate the wedge. Well, my boring skills being what they are, I ended up boring the hole from both the top and bottom of the head leaving a 1/16" offset right in the middle of the head, purely by accident. "Hmmm," I thought, "this could be interesting." I decided to persevere and turn the end of spindle on the handle blank just barely undersize to see if I could successfully drive the head onto the handle using the offset to hold everything together. I ended up turning the spindle to a nice snug fit, with a slightly tapered tip. I used some more of the teak for the handle btw. Out came the spokeshave and rasp, and I made a nicely shaped grip on the handle, trying to keep things proportional to some of my favorite larger hammer handles in my toolbox. When I was satisfied with the shape, I set to driving the head onto the handle. It took some doing, but I did get that sucker on there all the way down to the shoulder of the handle so that there's just 1/8" of the handle's tip protruding out of the head. Let me tell you, that handle and head are one now, never to be pulled asunder, especially since the wood is nice and dry after aging for several hundred years. :) So, this is my new wedge (of sorts) design, and I like it very much so far. I can see some potential drawbacks though. For example, if the handle wood isn't dry, the head could slip off - ouch. Or, if your handle material isn't super-tough stuff, the 1" diameter holding the head on might not be enough to withstand the mortise-pounding fury which this mallet was meant to dish out in the first place. Or, if the head isn't super-interlocking-gnarly-grain tough stuff, you could split it while trying to drive it onto the handle - bummer. The only thing I would do differently now would be to make a little pad with a hole in it to use on top of the head while pounding it onto the handle. I kinda dented the top of my mallet's head with the hammer that I was using. I guess I'll plane/scrape it all pretty again since the teak didn't dent very much in spite of my hitting it really hard. I'd also pad the bottom of the handle while ponding the head on, because I caused some damage to the edges of the handle's end where it rested on the concrete shop floor (duh!) - Bill (Just say: A little ingenuity/desperation can go a long way.) -- ---- Start of Message 25074 ---- From: John Gunterman Date: 1997-08-28 18:01:00 Subject: SPAM Anger, let's let it go.... Sorry folks, I meant to reply _JUST_ to the spamming bastards and the list-moms. unfortunately in my address book OldToools is listed before OldTool-List-Moms so when I hit "O" then return ... well you see..... I said to myself "Ohh sh*t" when I saw my post come back to me w/ the lists address on it. I feel REALLY terrble about contributing to the brew-ha-ha. I'm REALLY sorry I did that. It is ALMOST as inexcusble as the original SPAM itself anyway, PLEASE.. lets not let this blatant attack sidetrack the list discussion any more than it has. To "Just let it go" would be the best course of action.. (besides I'm sure he shall soon fee the wrath of Paddy.) John {=================STANDARD DISCLAIMER=================} {_The views expressed are those of the author and may_} {___not reflect the views of Cabletron Systems Inc.___} {=====================================================} ---- Start of Message 25075 ---- From: David Hunkins Date: 1997-08-28 18:13:00 Subject: Re:Tulsa/SWTCA bound At 12:37 PM 8/28/97 -0500, MSDAVI@m... wrote: > Anyone have any info on this meet - this is the first I've heard of it. >Is it too late? (guess that's what I get for not being a SWTCA member :^( > And who do I contact to join SWTCA? Mike, The "Groups" page on the Electronic N'thal shows: >Southwest Tool Collectors Association (SWTCA) >swtca@m... >Gregor Mszar, Secretary >1409 Circle Lane >Bedford, Texas 76022 >$12/yr The "Events" page shows: >August 29-30 >Southwest Tool Collectors meeting, Tulsa, OK >Tim Hoss, (918) 743-9297 Wish I was gonna be there too! David ---- Start of Message 25076 ---- From: Pierre Fogal Date: 1997-08-28 12:15:00 Subject: RE: Leaning wedges Addressed to: ray_mccaleb@O... oldtools@l... ** Reply to note from ray_mccaleb@O... Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:48:00 -0400 Pierre wrote: In other words, if it is accidental, looking at a large number of planes would show leans of varying amounts in _both_ directions." I'm not convinced of this. My "Mr. Coffee" is getting old. A nice patina is developing...on the front side. The side next to the wall is like new. Orientation has a direct correlation to the observed characteristic. I'm not certain how the old timers oriented the plane body during construction, or if that may have affected/effected any characteristic. Ray I would think, but obviously I can't know, that if the wedges lean for mechanical reasons, ie a better mousetrap, then they would have to orient the planes before leaning the wedge. If on the other hand you can achieve the same effect leaning either way, then the shape of the distribution might still show peaks at preferred angles, the keyword in my initial statement being "varying". If the lean is accidental, then we would see different leans on the planes some of 1 deg, some of 2, 3 etc ..., some to the left, some to the right and some with none at all .... I hope I understood what you're saying ... Pierre Dr. Pierre Fogal Physics Dept., University of Denver Denver, CO, USA. ---- Start of Message 25077 ---- From: Bill Clouser Date: 1997-08-28 12:15:00 Subject: Speaking of Dutchmen... On Aug 28, 1:43pm, Darrell LaRue wrote: > Subject: Speaking of Dutchmen... > Galoots, English castle stuff viked' out ... > The dutchmen I saw were used to join the floorboards end > to end in the big dining room. Ebony plank floors, no less. ^^^^^^ Wow! > Does anyone know more about this kind of flooring technique? > Or do I have to go back to Leeds with a crowbar (kidding :^)? Nah, yould just bend the crowbar anyways! I've seen similar flooring in a museum or library or something. Sorry I can't remember where, I was just a littl'un. I do remember noticing, though, that the floorboards had contracted somewhat, (spaces in between,) and in areas where the floor didn't get too much traffic, the dutchmen were protruding a little. My guess is that they didn't extend all the way through the planks. I guess they should have used the double-tapered locking dutchmen which we talked about once. - Bill (Wishing he could find an old ebony floor to re-use) -- ---- Start of Message 25078 ---- From: John Letsche Date: 1997-08-28 18:27:00 Subject: James Cam A couple of days ago, a Galoot mentioned he found a plane with a James Cam iron in it. I have a James Cam 3/8 mortice chisel. Can anyone supply some info about James? When and where did he produce irons and chisels? Thanks, John. ---- Start of Message 25079 ---- From: Gil Chesbro Date: 1997-08-28 18:30:00 Subject: Tulip Wood GG's, I've been offered the bole of a large Tulip tree. Can anyone tell me something about the characteristics of this wood? Is it worth milling? Or am I going to discover that the common name Tulip Tree covers a dozen different species? Keep in mind I'm in Michigan, so the tree here is what at least one Michigander calls a Tulip Tree. -Gil ---- Start of Message 25080 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 19:35:00 Subject: First gloat, and thanks Just wanted to let you all know that yesterday I became the proud owner of ED protoype #6, and let me tell you, it is a sight to behold. Plenty of others with a hell of a lot more know-how than me have shared their feelings with us concerning this saw, so I'm just going to say that I was not disappointed at all. The second item concerns a plea for help I had made a little while ago concerning the planing of maple. The advice rolled in, and I am gratified to say that after spending last weekend tuning my #4 my efforts were rewarded with lovely, full-width, see-thru shavings with a minimum of stalling and gouging. Your willingness to share your experience and knowledge has made my introduction to this craft much easier, and I wanted to say thanks to all of you. Paul Shah Lipid Metabolism Tufts University HNRCA ---- Start of Message 25081 ---- From: John J. Pesut Date: 1997-08-28 14:36:00 Subject: Re: Destroyed Mailing list ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha, ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha, ----- John J. Pesut I speak for me ; A whole bunch of lawyers speak for Hewlett-Packard Co. You can lead a horse to water, but sometimes you have to hit it over the head and knock it out so that you can shove a hose down its throat and force feed it. "Tastes just like chicken." - George Donner, California, 1846 "We will be back in camp in time for lunch." - G.A. Custer, Montana, 1876 "Come on, the National Guard doesn't use real bul." - Student, Ohio, 1970 ***** The Second Amendment - A reset button for The Constitution ***** ---- Start of Message 25082 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 18:52:00 Subject: Re: Tulip Wood Gil, I could be wrong, but I believe "tulip" is also known as poplar. The latin name for poplar is liriodendron tulipifera. See www.woodcraft.com/pages/poplar.htm for a picture and brief description. I also remember an article in an older FWW that showed a tulip poplar tree which was about 4 feet across and 100+ feet tall. The article also stated that when these trees were plentiful an entire barn could be built from one tree. Steve ---- Start of Message 25083 ---- From: Aaron R. Ionta Date: 1997-08-28 18:48:00 Subject: Re: Central MI auction alert! Douglas I tried responding to your email but could not get through Count me in Aaron Ionta aaron.ionta@i... maybee you should just post the info so everyone can see Douglas A. Marshall wrote: > > GG's > I almost forgot - You galoots in MI might want to check this out. Tom > Gibbs, of Loomis, who I got some good, cheap stuff off of has been dealing > tools for about 20 years. During that time, his best customer was a > neighbor, a Stanley collector who got first choice on all the prime stuff > Tom came across. Well, the neighbor succumbed to Emphysema at a tragic 49, > and much of his estate will be auctioned off on site in early Oct. Tom > says that the guy running the auction is a putz - especially clueless > about tools. Some of you guys in the area might want to check it out > further. If you score anything nice, a small (say #2 size) cut to your > source would be appreciated ;-). E-mail me if you want more info - it > kills me that I won't be there for the sale, but maybe some lucky galoot > will do well. > > Doug > > Doug Marshall "...and never imagine there is reason to be > Greenwood, VA proud of anything that may be accomplished > dam4t@v... by patience and sandpaper. " > - John Ruskin > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25084 ---- From: Todd Kissam Date: 1997-08-28 18:48:00 Subject: Re: Leaning wedges (long) I guess I would like to ramble on and attempt to make several points: 1. I have accumulated a lot of old paper as well as tools and in a Chronicle (EAIA club publication) there was a review of Ken Robert's first American Wooden Plane book. The reviewer skewered Ken at great length. Reading it 20 years later still appalled me. When you write something to try to further knowledge you are doing a couple of things. You are giving a gift to others and you are also making yourself vunerable. I hope that Larry does not feel himself as a target etc. I would like to first thank Larry, his partner and Gary for taking the time and making the effort to increase our understanding and I hope that they will continue to contribute their time and energy to the scholarship part of this hobby. 2. We have lost so much in both the areas of how tools were made and how they were used. Even with all that has been written on the subject of old tools, most knowledge is still passed on from mentor to apprentice. I consider many of the "Porch" members mentors (on both use and collecting) and I would like to thank Patrick for his mentoring and for his efforts to clarify some of the elements of the "Leaning Wedge" article. I hope that the principals and the rest of the porch have been interpreting the discourse on the "Leaning wedge" as academic and in the interest of furthering out knowledge. Clarence also deserves thanks for publishing the article in FTJ. (A shill - subscribe!) 3. I started collecting wooden planes when I was 8 years old and the more I think I know, the more I realize how little that really is. Often when a group of us woodies gets together someone will say "did you ever notice...", followed by "I always wondered about that". Most times we will identify a feature that we are curious about - the angled chatter marks above the plane shoulders - and we will be unable to come up with any rationale that all agree really fits. The additional input from a user (a great example is a series of posts we had the the use of sash fillesters on making ship-lap joints) as well as a maker (in this case Larry's findings) can add so much to our knowledge because of their different viewpoints. I did measure about 50 of my planes - I measure the location of the wedge slot so that warping is not a factor - and approx. 1/3 have an angled wedge mortise. Its my opinion that this is real and it was on purpose (at least for some of the planes), but further analysis will tell us more - relationship to cut width, etc. 4. We are now generations removed form the makers of these tools. We will never know all of the tricks these professional galoots used. Many of these early makers will remain unknown, a lot were probably just cabinetmakers who made there own or a few other tools for sale. Planemaking was a very competitive business - most early makers could not make a full time living making tools. If one maker did come up with a trick to increase production then it may have not have been in his interest to share this with everyone. 5. The Seaton chest was made to store its planes without wedges. I suspect this was for transport - maybe you saved money on shipping to the New World if the chest was smaller. But there are also many other chests (and the present contents of the Seaton chest) that show the the wedges were left in the planes. BTW - a lot of wedges are numbered - probably to aid in manufacture - but perhaps this was also done to aid shipping. But, I do not think that wedge in tight or lose or not in place needs to be a factor in Larry's tensioned wedge hypothesus. If it gave an advantage to maker (speed), that may have been enough of a rationale. Did the maker care if the wedge warped a little due to tension years later. I would assume that the owner would just shave the wedge a little - where the wedge was a little sticky. 6. Although 1/8 inch or 2 percent lean seem within the noise limit - I keep coming back to that 1/2 to 3/4" that the pad of the brace has to be out of plumb to do this. It would be great if there were jigs surviving from the late 1700's that supported the plane body at a slight angle or other tools that valuated or repudiated what has been proposed in Larry's article. I wish I were able to contribute to the discussion of bevels and other points, but must admit I can understand these things hands on but have a hard time connecting on the plus and minuses on other's posts without having an example in front of me. Todd ---- Start of Message 25085 ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1997-08-28 18:57:00 Subject: shipping costs This has nothing to do with wood or tools directly, except that some of us like to get rid of some excess goodies form time to time, and FMM IS coming up... I just shipped a box to the left coast (from MPLS, MN) *UPS costs at one of those mailbox stores was to be $12.04 *USPS ..complete with oversize penalty was to be $9 *BY GOING TO THE UPS PLANT I shipped via UPS for $5.86 Note: this is LESS THAN HALF THE PRICE that I was quoted at the Mailbox type store!!!!!!! Lesson learned, (and shared) Tom (who will take the $6.20 that I DIDN'T spend and go garage saling on the way home from work tonight thank you very much) ---- Start of Message 25086 ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1997-08-28 18:57:00 Subject: Re: Tulip Wood Gil Chesbro wrote: > > I've been offered the bole of a large Tulip tree. > Or am I going to discover that the common name Tulip Tree > covers a dozen different species? I would suspect this is a tulip poplar (Liriodendron tulipifera). (Don't worry, it's one of the half dozen or so Latin tree names that I know, and I looked it up to be sure I had it right.) Isn't this likely the source of common poplar? It can have a rather greenish tint, but it's widely used now for building trim. Almost all of the trim I used on my new front door is poplar. I again suspect that it is in wide use in part because it seems to be readily available in clear form. Ed -- Ed Bell | On a quest for the perfect P2K North | saw set. Cincinnati Bell Information Systems | Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. ---- Start of Message 25087 ---- From: Stan VanDruff Date: 1997-08-28 20:04:00 Subject: Re: Parallel action pliers with side cutter I have one of these pliers -- the side cutters are not part of the jaws, right? Mine isn't for sale, since it was a gift from my Dad. I just want to know what is is designed for. The only thing I can think of is for stretching wire. Am I close? At 09:31 AM 8/28/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Anyone know where I can get one these? My dad had one >(a Barnard??) that was advertised as having a one ton bite. ---- Start of Message 25088 ---- From: Gil Chesbro Date: 1997-08-28 19:02:00 Subject: Re: Tulip Wood -Reply DOH! Poplar! We'll why didn't she just say so? Now I can have a lifetime's supply of drawer sides. My thanks to Esther and Steve for their replies. -Gil ---- Start of Message 25089 ---- From: Karl Dunn Date: 1997-08-28 19:12:00 Subject: MD's Chair Class GG's I just want to add my name to the list of people who took Mike's Class and had a great time doing it. Other's have gone into great detail about the class and all it entails, so I'll just add that I was pleasantly surprised at how easy going it all was. I know at times I tend to sweat over "is this chisel sharp enough?", "Is my bench the right height?" etc. etc. But Mike's shop changed alot of that. The benches, (with the exception of Mike's Personal) were plywood and masonite with beaten and relatively inexpensive record vises. I used some of my tools (old and new old), some of fellow classmates(old and new old) and some of Mike's rag tag collection (old) and the truth is, I came out with a d*mn good looking chair and more importantly the ability to make more. Cool. Sure it's got warts, (I've never made a piece that didn't) but after I finish something that has taken that much time, more often than not, I'm just relieved to be done. This time? The exact opposite. When it came time to chisel away the remaining spindle stumps, I kind of felt bad that it was over. If you are even thinking about maybe possibly taking such a class I highly reco this one. He's gotten a lot of positive reaction from The Wall Street Journal Piece so if'n you want to go, I'd advise anyone to check into it sooner rather than later. Karl Who will never look at a chair or a red oak tree exactly the same way again. ---- Start of Message 25090 ---- From: Bob Brode Date: 1997-08-28 19:47:00 Subject: Re: James Cam John Letsche: >...a plane with a James >Cam iron in it. > >I have a James Cam 3/8 mortice chisel. Can anyone supply some info >about James? When and where did he produce irons and chisels? Always happy to paraphrase Roberts: Cam was one of the earlier Sheffield edge tool makers (listed in the 1787 directory), but was acquired by Marshes & Shepard in 1838. Samuel Peace, a "small edge tool manufacturer," was contracted to run the former Cam works, so he was the actual maker, at least during mid-century. Marsh & Shepard (renamed Marsh Bros. in 1849) continued use of the Cam mark for the rest of the nineteenth century, though intermittently, if Roberts's dates are accurate. Marsh Bros. (with the Cam mark) was apparently particularly active in exporting to the U.S. Bob Brode ---- Start of Message 25091 ---- From: David Pickle Date: 1997-08-28 19:29:00 Subject: Re:Tulsa/SWTCA bound Galoots, >The "Events" page shows: > >>August 29-30 >>Southwest Tool Collectors meeting, Tulsa, OK >>Tim Hoss, (918) 743-9297 The lowdown on this meet is that it starts Friday (tomorrow) morning at 0700 at the Convention Center in downtown Tulsa. I spoke to Tim Hoss just last night, and he said that SWTCA membership was not required, but it would cost $10 to get in. The theme of the show is something like "giants and midgtets" meaning huge tools and little-bitty tools. there will be exhibits of this theme. The thing, though, which made my heart skip a beat was that he said there will be 75 tables of dealers and exhibits!!!!!!! David Pickle Tulsa, OK just say, I'll be there by 7AM tomorrow with my nose pressed up against the glass, waiting for them to open... ---- Start of Message 25092 ---- From: Todd Kissam Date: 1997-08-28 19:33:00 Subject: Re: Spam (Was Destroyed Mailing List)) At 01:58 PM 8/28/97 -0400, THE LIST MOM wrote: >Hi Ernie, >Thanks for spamming our list again, AFTER we had banned you, AND reported >you to your ISP's. I guess you were able to circumvent our ban on your >account by going to a new ISP. Such is the life of the miscreant spammer. > He connects with a solid left jab... >To the postmasters, Mr. Drost has a long history of spamming newsgroups >and at least three listervs, including this one several times. He has been >asked to cease and desist, yet refuses. This latest ruse, that he has lost >his e-mailing list is a thinly-veiled attempt at trolling for more >customers. Notice how he managed to squeak in the fact that he's an >internet lumber dealer in his "innocent" plea for someone to send him his >e-mail address. > followed by a straight right.... the challenger is reeling >Ernie, you're not fooling anyone, and to put it quite frankly, you are a >loser. > a flurry of combinations - he's down for the count - he'll have to be carried out of the ring. KO'd in the 2nd round. >Patrick Olguin - Listowner, Oldtools@l... > Hey Patrick - those are supposed to be 8 oz gloves not gloves with a #8 in them. Todd [Who thought guys in Hahafornia were more mellow ;^)] ---- Start of Message 25093 ---- From: James Foster Date: 1997-08-28 19:34:00 Subject: Re: shipping costs Tom Johnson wrote: > > This has nothing to do with wood or tools directly, except that some of us like > to get rid of some excess goodies form time to time, and FMM IS coming up... > > I just shipped a box to the left coast (from MPLS, MN) > *UPS costs at one of those mailbox stores was to be $12.04 > *USPS ..complete with oversize penalty was to be $9 > *BY GOING TO THE UPS PLANT I shipped via UPS for $5.86 > Note: this is LESS THAN HALF THE PRICE that I was quoted at the Mailbox type > store!!!!!!! As far as I can tell, the base UPS price tends to be best (unless you're going from the US to CAN, then they ream you pretty good for customs). The USPS priority mail price is good on the stuff small/light enough to go that way. I'm lucky enough that our shipping dock provides UPS shipping as a service to employees. I just have to pack it up and bring it down. The "mailbox" stores are going to charge a premium, of course, but I am a bit surprised at how large it was percentage wise (I'd have guessed a couple of bucks). ---- Start of Message 25094 ---- From: David Tardiff Date: 1997-08-28 19:34:00 Subject: RE: Leaning wedges Pierre sez: Glen Rea has also commented earlier that as an engineer, he thinks a small angle is basically "in the noise" which could well be true. However, if this is the case, we ought to get a kind of Gaussian distribution of lean if we sample enough planes. If that peaks at zero, then statistically the arguement that the lean is accidental would have to carry a lot of weight. In other words, if it is accidental, looking at a large number of planes would show leans of varying amounts in _both_ directions. If it isn't then the distribution would be skewed, peaking at the predominate amount of lean. Collectively, we own a large number of planes. We can answer this question in a statistical sense at least .... Not necessarily! Planes are asymmetrical beasts, and are made primarily by asymmetrical people - handed, right? (or left....). I can easily visualize fixtures, jigs, and just practices that would tend to pile up error more on one side of 90 degrees than the other.... Gee, if I'm going to get in on this discussion (not an argument! It's a discussion! Thesis, antithesis, synthesis, right?) I'd better read the original article! Is the FTJ available anywhere other than subscription, and can back issues be obtained? I subscribed years ago, under previous management, but dropped it when became nothing but ads for the auction - I wasn't learning anything but prices. Perhaps I can obtain a copy at the upcoming Cranes...I'm sure Clarence will be there. Could this all be a clever ploy to increase circulation? :-) Dave Tardiff tardiff@m... Digital Equipment Corporation ---- Start of Message 25095 ---- From: John R Mudd Date: 1997-08-28 19:28:00 Subject: Re: Tulip Wood > > I would suspect this is a tulip poplar (Liriodendron tulipifera). (Don't > worry, it's one of the half dozen or so Latin tree names that I know, > and I looked it up to be sure I had it right.) Isn't this likely the > source of common poplar? It shouldn't be. (Tuliptree == tulip poplar) != poplar. Plain old poplar is closer to cottonwoods and aspens. If the tree is indeed a tulip poplar, then it's quite a beautiful tree. Nice tall trunk. In Eric Sloane's "A reverence for wood" there's a drawing of how tulip trees are commonly recognized, by the "bumps" on the distant leaf-line. Once you've seen the leaves, you should recognize it. Hard to explain, sort of a Vulcan "live free and prosper" handsign. I guess you have to see it to understand. Tulip poplar and its qualities are well-documented in "Best of FWW on Wood" (the blue one). ---- Start of Message 25096 ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1997-08-28 19:49:00 Subject: Re: wages at the forge At 10:22 AM -0500 8/28/97, James Foster wrote: >Tom Johnson wrote: [snip stuff about tools of *war*] >So what would be the price of some of the >common, simple molding planes of the early 1800's translated into >today's prices? >'Course, the value will depend on how you figure the >monetary equivalency, but ballpark figures would still be interesting. An interesting question, especially when we see an old wholesale catalog listing the price of a plane, and the fine print says "per dozen." Curiosity aside, it relates to questions of what sort of tools an artisan could afford to be equipped with in the old days, as well as such modern questions as whether an L-N repro, e.g., is really all *that* expensive, in historical comparison. Modern equivalencies of historical monetary units are almost always problematic, with the validity of comparisons decreasing as one goes back in time. There are some published time series of one currency in terms of another (eg, dollars to pounds sterling), but they only go back to the period, usually in the 19th century, when international commerce became standardized through exchange rates set in currency exchanges in major port cities. And these figures tell very little about the purchasing power of a given sum *within* a given country/currency area. Another tack is to try to estimate historic rates of inflation, by comparing the market cost of a fixed "basket" of goods through time. But what should go into the basket is difficult to hold constant, especially over long periods, and recovering prices is often difficult. (Compare what your family "consumes" in a given week with what your great-grandfather's family consumed, etc.) Sometimes this is distilled down to one item over time, such as a bushel of grain, but still there are problems of equivalency. My own preferred method (if the engineers on the list invoke their professional experience on the list, can a historian do less?) is to try to find a comparable equivalency *at the time* the past value is known, and a similar pair in the present. For the case at hand, it might be possible to discover how much a common laborer (or some other employment category, say journeyman carpenter) earned in a day, or a week, and then compare the known retail price of tools to that amount. As a hypothetical example, back when wages were $1 per day, a tool that cost $1 might have had a value equivalent to--what?--$60-$80 in today's money. Still not a perfect comparison, but probably as close to the question as we're going to get, from the standpoint of why we're interested in the first place. Tom Holloway, who started earning wages at the rate of $1 per hour, um,.. some years back. ---- Start of Message 25097 ---- From: KEMPINSKI, ROBERT M. (JSC-OS) Date: 1997-08-28 19:52:00 Subject: RE: Leaning wedges (not too long) Galoots, I know as much about leaning wedges as the Leaning Tower of Pizza, however, I do know some about design. And the design issues of old tools seems particularly interesting to me. For instance, I still don't fully appreciate Stanley's reasons for using those funky brass screw-nuts and threaded post to secure totes and knobs. I'd like to see this discussed. I've enjoyed the leaning wedge thread even though it has been a stretch for me to fully understand as I haven't read the article and have only a few wood planes. (BTW IMHO, 1 degree of lean seems to be well within natural variation for a hand made process.) When one goes public with knowledge one usually garners some fame/gain at some risk . The risk of being shown wrong or the risk of being shown right. So I say, keep the discussion going and don't be alarmed if others have different opinions, regardless of how vehement they appear. Heck, if we were all in agreement that would be no fun. We'd all be painting planes - wouldn't we!! Other design issues I would like to see debated: Why separate brass screw-nuts in totes and knobs. Why bench planes don't have adjustable throats. Advantage of quick release lever caps over screw down caps (Anyone notice the latest Record newly made planes. They are replacing the pop up lever with screw caps) Ways to eliminate back lash in depth adjusters. Rob Kempinski Lurking in Houston > ---- Start of Message 25098 ---- From: Donald Stern Date: 1997-08-28 20:00:00 Subject: Re: wages at the forge On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Tom Holloway wrote: > who started earning wages at the rate of $1 per hour, um,.. some years back. Weren't you the lucky one! How about 75 cents per hour. Don

---- Start of Message 25099 ---- From: Pierre Fogal Date: 1997-08-28 20:00:00 Subject: RE: Leaning wedges Addressed to: David Tardiff Tardiff@m... oldtools@l... ** Reply to note from David Tardiff Tardiff@m... Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:28:06 -0400 Not necessarily! Planes are asymmetrical beasts, and are made primarily by asymmetrical people - handed, right? (or left....). I can easily visualize fixtures, jigs, and just practices that would tend to pile up error more on one side of 90 degrees than the other.... Quite true, but I gotta believe that even then the errors would be random, and therefore while the curve wouldn't peak at 90 degrees, the shape of the curve would still indicate that it was random (Gaussian). Whoa guys this is getting deep .... Pierre Who is currently enjoying this discussion while listening to Mozart on SMC's technical support line while taking Tony Seo's advice .... its only hobby ... its only a hobby ... its only a hobby ... oh hello mr tech support guy .... Dr. Pierre Fogal Physics Dept., University of Denver Denver, CO, USA. ---- Start of Message 25100 ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1997-08-28 14:03:00 Subject: Re: Tulip Wood John R Mudd wrote: > > I wrote: > > > > I would suspect this is a tulip poplar (Liriodendron tulipifera). > > Isn't this likely the source of common poplar? > > It shouldn't be. (Tuliptree == tulip poplar) != poplar. Plain old > poplar > is closer to cottonwoods and aspens. Botanically, yes. True poplars are genus Populus. But I stand by my suspicion that common poplar comes from the tulip poplar. While Merriam may not be a great woodworking reference, is does follow popular usage pretty well. From the Fifth Collegiate: poplar: 2. U.S. The tulip tree; also, its wood. Ed -- Ed Bell | On a quest for the perfect P2K North | saw set. Cincinnati Bell Information Systems | Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. ---- Start of Message 25101 ---- From: Rob Stevens Date: 1997-08-28 20:18:00 Subject: Re: Tulip Wood -Reply Gil; Hold on there, Not "DOH!", tulipwood is not likely the popular poplar you are thinking of. >From memory (as I don't have a raft of galoot reference books at work), this wood is also known as American Yellow Popular, and even "whitewood", though I'm not sure why. It usually has predominantly yellow and green tinges and streaks. Before you dismiss this opportunity; this wood works very easily, is sometimes a bit hairy/fuzzy, uncommonly clear, fairly stable, and as someone (Ed?) already pointed out, is very commonly sold in HomeDespot-type building supply places for use in interiors ie. kitchens, trim, etc. Oh ya, and it's beautiful in tree form too. Rob ---- Start of Message 25102 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 20:37:00 Subject: Re: On The Cheap << At 11:35 AM -0500 8/28/97, Rodgers Charles wrote: [snip] Anyone else found galootish applications for non-old tools that they would care to share?? >> How about old potato mashers (the round ones) used as (carving) mallets? Same shape and the larger ones work just as well. You can often buy them for a dollar or two. Dennis ---- Start of Message 25103 ---- From: John R Mudd Date: 1997-08-28 20:42:00 Subject: Re: Tulip Wood > But I stand by my > suspicion that common poplar comes from the tulip poplar. While Merriam > may not be a great woodworking reference, is does follow popular usage > pretty well. From the Fifth Collegiate: > > poplar: 2. U.S. The tulip tree; also, its wood. Frankly, and I don't mean to be critical of you, Ed, but a dictionary is a lousy reference source for woodworking. My Merriam's says that a poplar is a slender quick-growing tree similar to a willow. An example: how many of us who are involved in software development or systems administration hear a news report about a computer virus or something like that whatever and say to ourselves "that misrepresents the facts of what actually happened"? I bet Merriam's thinks a 2x4 is a board that has a two inch by four inch cross-section, too. Your suspicion may well be right--I honestly don't know. I cannot remember much about the article in Best of FWW, although than the author said that a lot of people think that poplar and tulip poplar are one and the same. I think there's something to be said for not succumbing to the dumbing-down of everyday life in the U.S, and most everybody on the Oldtools list has faced it at some point: "how come you don't want to use a table saw to cut that board?" ---- Start of Message 25104 ---- From: Stephen York Date: 1997-08-28 20:46:00 Subject: Wooden plane question This question will probably open up a can o worms, but here goes.... Pointers to URLs would be appreciated if this dumb question has been asked before. (It probably has) I looked on Elect. Neander. site and did not find wisdom on this subject there, except for Tony Seo's info on wooden planes. I found an ad in the paper this morning for tools for sale. Call the guy up. He has a number of old english wooden planes for sale. He said they are for mouldings. He said he was not selling his Bailey planes. :) He said he has arthitis, and is going to switch to using a r**t*r. I am going to go and check his stuff out on Sat. So if I find planes that I think are useful for me, what do I look for in wooden planes? He wants 15-25$ a piece for them, and he has about 10 of these moulding planes. I don't know what all the shapes are. What should I be paying for these items? Probably depends on the maker, right? I am looking at these planes as a user. What to look for: Inspect the sole? Look at the cutters (how much life left in them)? Look for missing parts? Cracks? Steve ---- Start of Message 25105 ---- From: Glenn W. Nelson Date: 1997-08-28 20:52:00 Subject: Tool Haunts in Italy I know this may be a long shot, but here goes. I am going to Italy in about a month and was wondering if anyone on the list knows of some oldtool sources? I will be in the north of Italy, and possibly Switzerland. Also, are there any Galoots on the list from Italy? Maybe if time permitts, I could pay a visit to a oldtool Galoot across the big puddle. Thanks in advance, Glenn ---- Start of Message 25106 ---- From: Gary Ilmanen Date: 1997-08-28 20:55:00 Subject: Re: Parallel action pliers with side cutter On 28 Aug 97 at 16:04, Stan VanDruff wrote: > I have one of these pliers -- the side cutters are not part of the jaws, > right? Mine isn't for sale, since it was a gift from my Dad. I just want > to know what is is designed for. The only thing I can think of is for > stretching wire. Am I close? I used mine for grabbing stained glass after scoring the cutline. Also, seem to remember seeing some for sale at a hardware store recently. ------------- Gary Ilmanen - Saga Research Riverside, California, USA Phone: +01 909.686.8384 Email: Snick@B... GIlmanen@A... Websites: http://www.kiwi.net/~saga http://www.adgrafix.com/info/gilmanen ---- Start of Message 25107 ---- From: Patrick Leach Date: 1997-08-28 20:56:00 Subject: Re: Spam (Was Destroyed Mailing List)) Before Mr. Drost had spammed the good folks of this group, I had planned to drive to the far end of Maine to purchase a four-figure amount of cocobolo from him. Once I caught wind of his cretinous spamming nature, I took my business elsewhere since I have zero-tolerance for spammers. I ended up paying more the wood, but at least the folks I got it from aren't out doing the internet's equivalent of a chihuahua dry-humping your leg. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Leach Just say Hitting 'em where it hurts the most - in the wallet. etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25108 ---- From: Esther Heller Date: 1997-08-28 20:56:00 Subject: Cranes on Sept 6? Gentle galoots, I got a thing in the mail for a Crane's auction on Sept 6 for "smithing, molding, casting, jewelrymaking machinery and tools etcetera" at Danforth 4 corners Hillsboro NH. Odd box lots mentions ww tools. There was some talk about the last one like there is camping space at the auction site, can anyone tell me about it? I now have a working tent, have slept in the car before, is there drinking water or portapotties available? Do people with those kinds of tools tailgate? Would any smith types like to tell me what to watch out for in leg vises, stakes, tongs, hardies, anvils, etc? Or does anyone have any watchits on drawplates? They also list some very early ww machinery and several toolboxes and workbenches. I'm trying to figure out if I should take a vacation day next Friday. Esther eoh@k... ---- Start of Message 25109 ---- From: Jeff Joslin Date: 1997-08-28 21:03:00 Subject: Re: Leaning wedges >From: Pierre Fogal pfogal@g... > >Glen Rea has also commented earlier that as an engineer, he thinks a small >angle is basically "in the noise" which could well be true. However, if this >is the case, we ought to get a kind of Gaussian distribution of lean if we >sample enough planes. If that peaks at zero, then statistically the >arguement that the lean is accidental would have to carry a lot of weight. "Noise" needn't have zero mean. For instance, the fact that most makers were righthanded could lead to a systematic bias in one direction or the other. Thus, if there really is a tendency for wedges to lean to one side, then that could be due to some unintentional bias on the part of the maker. On the other hand, if the leaning-wedge tendency only exists for a certain subset of planes, such as narrow molders, then we'd have some more explaining to do. Jeff (Who is emphatically not taking sides in the Great Leaning Wedges debate) ---- Start of Message 25110 ---- From: Glenn W. Nelson Date: 1997-08-28 21:17:00 Subject: Re: Wooden plane question Stephen York wrote: >He has a number of old english wooden planes for sale. He said they are > for mouldings. > He wants 15-25$ a piece for them, and he has about 10 of these >moulding planes. > What should I be paying for these items? Probably depends on the maker, > right? I am looking at these planes as a user. > > What to look for: > Inspect the sole? Look at the cutters (how much life left in them)? Look > for missing parts? Cracks? > > Steve Steve Wooden planes IMHO are great, I have about 250 or so, all users (not a collector). The price that you will pay for the planes varies greatly with the condition and the age (make) of the plane. In the wooden moulding plane market there are 100s of planes to make mouldings. Each unique shape has many sizes available. What I look for in a wooden plane are: Is the plane complete, are all of the parts there to make the plane usable? How much life is left in the iron, there should be plenty of iron left for years of sharpening. Is the sole in good shape, all boxing complete or repairable. Are there any cracks in the cheeks? Are there any chips? Is the wedge broken or cracked? Has the plane been modified in any way? How much damage is there to the heel? A mallet is used to loosen the wedge, sometimes users just like to wack the hell out of the plane to get the wedge loose. Is the body straight, sole and sides? Has the wood changed in size compaired to the iron? Once you have decided to but the plane it is very easy to get them back into working order. As far as price, the $15-$25 price is good. In fact that is a great price! Glenn P.S. Hey maybe I should buy these planes. ---- Start of Message 25111 ---- From: Kenneth Stagg Date: 1997-08-28 21:17:00 Subject: Re: Tulip Wood John R Mudd wrote: > Ed Bell wrote: > > But I stand by my > > suspicion that common poplar comes from the tulip poplar. While Merriam > > may not be a great woodworking reference, is does follow popular usage > > pretty well. From the Fifth Collegiate: > > > > poplar: 2. U.S. The tulip tree; also, its wood. > > Frankly, and I don't mean to be critical of you, Ed, but a dictionary > is a lousy reference source for woodworking. My Merriam's says that > a poplar is a slender quick-growing tree similar to a willow. > There's a problem here. Many people who deal with lumber for a living know Liriodendron tulipifera as poplar (or Tulip Poplar, Yellow Poplar, etc...), though it's not a true poplar. I have yet to see lumber from a true poplar (Aspen, Cottonwood, Lombard, etc...) offered as poplar. On the other hand people you work with trees for a living frequently call Lombard Poplars or Aspens just plain poplar. Isn't this fun!!! I just looked it up in a tree id guidebook and they say that it is called: Yellow-Poplar!! And they're the ones who "really should know better." As for using a dictionary as a reference; why not! What we are looking to do is communicate a specific idea and anything that aids to that end should be welcome. One big thing to remember is that many of the names we use for things are regional. So whereas I've heard of this wood being sold as whitewood, around here whitewood almost invariably refers to Western Hemlock. What I know Douglas Fir is elsewhere frequently called Oregon Pine. I know that it's neither a fir or a pine, but I can communicate the concept of the wood that I'm interested in by using the convenient regional pseudonym for it. As for the original posters question, I don't know that Tulip Tree covers a dozen different species but it does cover more than just the wood I know as Tulip Poplar. Many (most?) of these are in the Magnolia family. One of these (the Cucumber tree) is frequently sold as Tulip poplar. -Ken ---- Start of Message 25112 ---- From: Scott E. Post Date: 1997-08-28 22:01:00 Subject: Re: Destroyed Mailing list > Northstar Lumber wrote: > > Those of you who don't appreciate this scumbag should e-mail their displeasure to his two providers: postmaster@a... lou@A... (Lou is listed with Internic as the admin contact) postmaster@g... Be sure to include the entire message + headers. Many ISP's won't do anything to a commercial customer like this unless they get a lot of complaints, so don't be shy. (we now return you to your regularly scheduled woodworking) -- Scott Post spost@n... http://www.netusa1.net/~spost ---- Start of Message 25113 ---- From: Pierre Fogal Date: 1997-08-28 16:09:00 Subject: Re: Tool Haunts in Italy Addressed to: nelsgw@r... oldtools oldtools@l... ** Reply to note from nelsgw@r... Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:52:08 -0500 Well I have a source, but it won't help you any .... my source is my family .. Northern Italy is full of small shop artisans, particularly in the River Brenta area, Bassano del Grappa, Marostica etc. If you can hook up with some of these folks they may put you on to some. I don't ever recall seeing an antique store though. I suspect your chances are good if you can find some one who knows someone who knows ... Either way, its a great place to visit (my personal biases aside) particularly if you like food and drink and the odd mountain or two. Enjoy your trip! Auguri, Pier (Pierre) Dr. Pierre Fogal Physics Dept., University of Denver Denver, CO, USA. ---- Start of Message 25114 ---- From: Alan N. Graham Date: 1997-08-28 16:09:00 Subject: RE: Leaning wedges On 28 Aug 97 at 13:48, Ray McCaleb wrote: > Orientation has a direct correlation to the observed > characteristic. I'm not certain how the old timers oriented the > plane body during construction, or if that may have > affected/effected any characteristic. I have followed this discussion with interest, and I wonder if Ray may have hit upon an important point here. Being right handed, I hold my chisel in my left hand when working. Unless I am careful, I have noticed a tendency to slightly tilt my chisel to the right, never to the left. I have also noticed this in others, and I believe it may be wisespread due to the normal rotation of the wrist and its tendency to move the palm downward. I have noticed this with other tools as well, whenever my left hand is providing the guidance. Is it possible that the "lean" here is the result of this tendency in planemakers? The lower proportion of "lean" exhibited to the right might be from left handed planemakers. ("You, over in the corner, stop laughing. I mean it's possible isn't it?") Alan N. Graham ---- Start of Message 25115 ---- From: Douglas A. Marshall Date: 1997-08-28 22:28:00 Subject: Central MI auction info. GG's I've had several people ask about my earlier post concerning a collector's estate auction in Loomis, MI. To answer the calls for more info: The man to ask is Tom Gibbs - the tool dealer who sold the man most of this stuff - his # is (517) 386-9119. If one of you could call and post the details, that would be great so as not to pester him to death. Loomis is just outside of Clare, just off highway 10, East of Clare. TG can give you better directions when you talk to him. Good Luck, and let me know if anyone makes out ! Doug Doug Marshall "...and never imagine there is reason to be Greenwood, VA proud of anything that may be accomplished dam4t@v... by patience and sandpaper. " - John Ruskin ---- Start of Message 25116 ---- From: Wade McDonald Date: 1997-08-28 23:50:00 Subject: Backlash and Depth Adjusters Robert Kempinski recently asked for suggestions on Ways to eliminate back lash in depth adjusters. I recently read (in yet another article on tuning bench planes- I think even as a newbie I have seen enough of these to last a long time) the suggestion to bend the y shaped lever so one side pushes against the rear and the other against the front of the depth adjusting screw's slot for the adjuster. This might tend to tweak the blade to the side as the adjuster is moved, but I don't know. The author provided no caveat for older planes with cast levers about breakage. But, if this works okay, it might be one way in which the "cheesy" stamped lever is an improvement, since it is bendable. Another thought is that one could dessicrate the adjuster by gluing a brass shim "donut" in this slot so it was a little less wide. But you'd have to do a nice job or the adjuster would tend to stick at any rough spots. A good experiment for those $3 flee market junkers. In the same article was a suggestion that the sides and back of the mouth be filed to be straight, with perhaps a slight bevel. Are there galoots who similarly tune the sides and rear of the mouth, and if so, why? Wade, scrounging wood in Austin, TX ---- Start of Message 25117 ---- From: Jon Zimmers Date: 1997-08-28 21:58:00 Subject: Re: Users, collectors, horders was, Re: Old, err, new, err At 08:47 PM 8/21/97 -0700, William K. Taggart wrote: >Jon Zimmers wrote: >> >> - Bill wkt@i... wrote: >> >> (EDITED) >> >Fun discussion anyway! > >- Bill > Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I thought it was a good discussion, too. Jon ---- Start of Message 25118 ---- From: John Hunt Date: 1997-08-28 23:16:00 Subject: Re: shipping costs Never ship UPS through those Mailbox, Etc. type of places. The make their money by marking up such things. I, too, was surprised when I was in a hurry and stopped in one of those places. -john- On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Tom Johnson wrote: > This has nothing to do with wood or tools directly, except that some of us like > to get rid of some excess goodies form time to time, and FMM IS coming up... > > I just shipped a box to the left coast (from MPLS, MN) > *UPS costs at one of those mailbox stores was to be $12.04 > *USPS ..complete with oversize penalty was to be $9 > *BY GOING TO THE UPS PLANT I shipped via UPS for $5.86 > Note: this is LESS THAN HALF THE PRICE that I was quoted at the Mailbox type > store!!!!!!! > Lesson learned, (and shared) > Tom > (who will take the $6.20 that I DIDN'T spend and go garage saling on the way > home from work tonight thank you very much) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25119 ---- From: Paul Honore Date: 1997-08-28 23:16:00 Subject: Re: Tulip Wood Ed Bell wrote: > >Botanically, yes. True poplars are genus Populus. But I stand by my >suspicion that common poplar comes from the tulip poplar. While Merriam >may not be a great woodworking reference, is does follow popular usage >pretty well. From the Fifth Collegiate: > > poplar: 2. U.S. The tulip tree; also, its wood. > I'd have to agree with Ed. I have several tulip or yellow poplars growing in my yard. I believe the tulip name comes either from the shape of the leaf which somewhat resembles a tulip, or the attractive yellow flowers. They do grow very tall and straight. Lombard poplars or aspens are pretty much a garbage tree that is one of the first things to appear when a pasture goes to hell. (I've got those too). They grow FAST. Paul Honore Hebron CT phonore@i... ---- Start of Message 25120 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-29 00:45:00 Subject: Neandermallet Bill said, at the end of a post about really important stuff: (Just made a new mallet the other night in fact, with a new wedging condept. I might bring it up here sometime.) Please, please do. Young son David has handle and head ready to go for another dogwood neandermallet. He wants this to be a blind wedged tenon because it'll look way-cool. Can you rescue me? David's all-knowing consultant, Gene Opinions and comments expressed are solely those of the writer and are not to be interpreted as those of Werner-Sexton, it's shareholders, or office holders. ---- Start of Message 25121 ---- From: Alan P. Kefauver Date: 1997-08-29 01:11:00 Subject: a Miter box Well, since I was cutting some real small stuff, and didn't have a miter box, I thought it would be easy to make one. Glued up three nice straight pieces of cherry and proceeded to cut the slots...... Oh yeah, how do you cut the slots at exactly 45 and keep the cut vertical as well by hand? I could go next door and use my neighbors table saw (blasphemy), but I wanted a thin (1/32) kerf. I have now made a number of cuts in my miter box, and none of them are truly at 45 degrees with a 90 degree vertical. I used a angled square for the 45, but can't seem to keep the Diston at 90. I am trying to avoid buying a commercial box. Any suggestions will be appreciated. Alan P. Kefauver, Recording Arts and Sciences Peabody Institute of The Johns Hopkins University "What we need is Progress with an escape hatch." Essay on a Beer Can --John Updike- ---- Start of Message 25122 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-29 01:24:00 Subject: Re: Vikings? Garrett wrote: >This whole thing sounds like some "snipe" joke... sinking Dutchmen.... >buried Vikings. Hmmm. Snipes - I remember them well. Taste a lot like chicken. Scout camps, church camps...anyplace far out in the dark. If you think the age old terminology in the phrase "burying a Viking", or a reference to the "grave" has some similarity to the sophomoric nonsense of snipe hunts, well, I just don't know what more to say to you. Except, someday when you are in dire need of one urgently, OLDTOOLS will be here to help with a :^). Please don't hesitate to ask. Gene Opinions and comments expressed are solely those of the writer and are not to be interpreted as those of Werner-Sexton, it's shareholders, or office holders. ---- Start of Message 25123 ---- From: Norman Witt Date: 1997-08-29 02:25:00 Subject: Stanley miter box screw compatibility I recently picked up a Stanley #358 miter box, that was missing a few parts. The missing parts are the movable bars that hold the hood against the fence, and one of the screws that hold the bar that connects the tops of the uprights that hold the saw. The hold-down bars are no big deal (does anyone actually use them?), and the box seems to work fine without the missing screw, but I thought I should at least make an effort to replace the screw. As expected, the screw is yet another Stanley special, a #10 screw with 28 tpi. #10 screws are normally made only in 24 and 32 tpi. On a whim I decided to try some screws from various planes, and it turns out that the fence screw from the #78 rabbet plane fits. The only difference is that the #78 fence screw has a larger head, and is slotted. More importantly, the #78 screw is available new as a spare part from Stanley (860-225-5111). The nice lady in the parts department didn't even charge me for the screw. Anyone in need of oddball Stanley screws should note that some of the parts are still in production, and sometimes fits the older tools. The miter box itself was an unusual purchase for me, in that I had passed on it previously (I didn't have a use for it, and thought it would take up too much room), and it was still there when I went back a month later. This never happens to me. The price was low enough to qualify as a gloat ($40), and included the saw, a very nice made-for-Stanley Simmonds that was actually sharp. I think the saw alone would be worth the price. Both saw and box have Sweetheart marks. Although I still haven't figured out where to put it, I use the thing constantly and am wondering how I managed without it. Norm W, who thinks this is another one of those under-appreciated tools, that are really useful. ---- Start of Message 25124 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-29 02:57:00 Subject: How to loosen a stuck adjustable throat? Knowledgable Galoots, I picked up a Stanley 60 1/2 (low-angle block plane) recently for a few bucks with a problem. The adjustable throat is stuck, from an unknown cause. I suspect it's stuck from sitting idle in someone's barn for many years and rusting. My question is should I attempt to loosen the adjustable throat by liberally soaking in penetrating oil and then beating on it with a mallet or is there a better way? If I do nothing, the plane is still quite usable in it's stuck state. Thanks for your input. kam ---- Start of Message 25125 ---- From: Gary Roberts Date: 1997-08-29 03:00:00 Subject: Re: Leaning wedges So here is what I propose to do (speaking as the editor of the article... not as an author)... Examine sets of simple molding planes: hollows and rounds, side and center beads, and perhaps some ogee types. I'll be looking for lean to either side, alterations in body due to warp or cup, relationships between lean and plane type / size. I have mostly New England makers (and lotsa Boston) so whatever I find will reflect that. I wonder if the lean could relate to the size of the plane as well as the type. Also, it would be worthwhile to check blind side of the mortise for a dished out area. I reread Ken Roberts section on planemaking. What struck me was that this was a second hand version of a first hand description. There is always the possibility for the reporter to misinterpret what was said. Also, first hand accounts are, by nature, inaccurate as the speaker usually assumes that certain facts are well known. That is the major problem encountered when recording personal histories. Have you ever read an article describing how to make mortise and tenons? Everyone has a different technique. Even the type of tool used may affect the method. I clean up the sides with a file that has two bare flats. Sort of like a modern day float. I noted that this method produces a slight cup or dish as I don't want to abrade the mouth of the mortise. So I leave the mouth and the bottom slightly proud... hence it is dished. There is even the possibility that the lean is an inadvertant result of a hand manufacturing process. To wit... when I trim my Toolemera Press reprints, the edges will come out differently depending on what paper cutter I use, what brand of paper and how many sheets are cut. I can achieve a slightly speckled look (rough cut edge) by using paper that is partially recycled and by cutting more sheets at a time. This saves time and energy, while resulting in a older appearance. So which came first... the speckled edge or the need to expedite the manufacturing process? When Larry first asked me to edit and proof the article, my immediate reaction was to examine the draft for assumptions. I asked Larry to consider what was a verifiable fact and what was an assumption (either of his own or one derived from some other source). I feel that is vital for the writer to examine the proposal to determine from where the ideas originate. If the idea is not verifiable, than it is an assumption that must be proven before it can be accepted as fact. The list members are in a valuable position of being able to review the Leaning wedge proposal. If we examine those planes that we have for the salient factors mentioned (lean, dishing, type of plane, geographic origin, timespan of origin) we could than develop a baseline from which we can review the proposal. So I guess I gotta get out a straight edge, a flashlight and maybe a feeler guage and check on this. Gary Roberts groberts@s... Boston, MA...Antique tools, Art Pottery, Hong Kong cinema, what else is there? ---- Start of Message 25126 ---- From: Colin Montoya-Lewis Date: 1997-08-29 03:44:00 Subject: Fw: shipping costs Hi Folks, I sent this in reply to Tom's comments about shipping, and he suggested I post it to the list for all to see. I feel a little silly about my ignorance with regard to shipping, so be gentle.... ---------- > From: Colin Montoya-Lewis colinml@r... > To: Tom Johnson thj@e... > Subject: Re: shipping costs > Date: Thursday, August 28, 1997 4:46 PM > > Hi Tom, > I learned the "Mailboxes Etc." lesson the hard way a while back. I had a > whole bunch of hardwood end cuts and chunks that I was just going to have > to dumpster, so I posted a note on rec.carving, asking if anyone needed > some free blanks...just pay shipping. I got about 10 responses. I thought > I was being very efficient by looking on the UPS web page to figure out all > the shipping costs, and I let everyone know how much to send me. > > When all the checks arrived, I headed off to Mailboxes Etc., and plopped > the packages on the counter. The total came to twice what I had > calculated. I ended up paying over $50 bucks out my own pocket. I felt > too weird writing back to everyone to tell them that I had miscalulated > their shipping, so I just went ahead and sent them. > > When I got home, I double checked my figures, and discovered that I hadn't > been in error afterall. I called Mailboxes, told them the price > difference, and they said that that was their markup. I called the > national number, just to find out if this one franchise was gouging, and > was told that the 50% markup was for their "premium" service. Ever been to > one of those places? Premium isn't the first word that comes to mind. I > had to fill out all the paperwork for my already addressed, weighed, and > ready to go packages. THeir "premium" service amounted to handing me the > forms, taking my money, and then tossing the boxes in back, where the UPS > guy would come and get them. > > I'll never use Mailboxes again, but I may purchase my own franchise :) > > -Colin > ---- Start of Message 25127 ---- From: Aubrey Washington Date: 1997-08-29 03:42:00 Subject: Dating No. 9 1/2s Kind Galoots, My brother, a confirmed Normite, is being transfered to another state...sad for him, good for me. He's been unloading some of his extra toolage on me. One thing he gave me was an extra 9 1/2. With some tuning and SSing it will make a good user (if I can find a replacement for the missing mouth adjustment lever). As I got to comparing it with my current user 9 1/2 I noticed a few differences and began to wonder about how to date these things. Perhaps someone out there in Galootdom can shed some light. Here are the differences: My user is pretty much just like the description in B&G, that is, it has the "Hand-y" grips, knurled brass depth knob, brass front knob, etc. It is stamped with "No. 9 1/2" low on the left side below the Hand-y grip and has the letter "C" inside the bed just behind the mouth. Now the one my brother gave me differs in that it has no "Hand-y" grips, both the depth knob and the front knob appear to be steel (not brass), it is not stamped with No. 9 1/2, and the letter "C" is on the underside of the lever cap. Also the casting may be SLIGHTLY thicker. I'm not sure that either of them has the correct iron, but they're different too: The iron on my brass knobed user is rounded at the top while the other iron is angled. When I saw the steel knobs I thought perhaps it was a War-time model, but B&G seems to suggest that from ~1900 on they all had "Hand-y" grips, but this one doesn't. While I've got your attention, let me ask another question. I have an extra #5 (Type 5-6) with a nasty 3/4" long 1/8" deep chip in the mouth behind the blade. I have a good user #5 so I've been wondering if the chipped one can be used as a scrub plane. Will the chip reduce blade support too much? The side casting looks awful thin; will the strain of scrubbing be likely to break it? If I do use it as a scrub, what is the proper radius for the curve in the iron? (BTW, I'll get a new iron and save the old one for posterity. Also, lest anyone think I'm trying to destroy a fine example of an old tool, in addition to the chipped mouth, it also has the wrong tote and a nail hole for hanging.) Looking forward to your thoughts. Aubrey Washington Who's planning to take a beginning blacksmithing class in 3 weeks. (Old tools plus fire!) ---- Start of Message 25128 ---- From: eric coyle Date: 1997-08-29 04:12:00 Subject: Re: How to loosen a stuck adjustable throat? At 10:57 PM 8/28/97 -0400, k.johnson@c... wrote: >Knowledgable Galoots, > >I picked up a Stanley 60 1/2 (low-angle block plane) recently for a few >bucks with a problem. The adjustable throat is stuck, from an unknown >cause. I suspect it's stuck from sitting idle in someone's barn for many >years and rusting. > >My question is should I attempt to loosen the adjustable throat by >liberally soaking in penetrating oil and then beating on it with a mallet >or is there a better way? If I do nothing, the plane is still quite usable >in it's stuck state. > >Thanks for your input. > >kam > eric's suggestion is to follow your instinct and lace it with penetrting oil, then tap it lightly a few times, this seems to be standard practice to help the penetrating oil penetrate. I would avoid the beatings.....gentle tapping should eventually loosen it up. The adjustable part will normally fall out if the top knob is off, so there's no hidden keyways or anything like that. The castings on the 601/2 are very thin behind the blade, so be careful of mis-directed tapping....and the rear corners of the throat may already have hairline fractures.... E.> ---- Start of Message 25129 ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1997-08-29 06:20:00 Subject: Re: the FTJ Leaning Wedge Article (very long) Greetings, When Larry first told me that he'd discovered a set of planes whose wedges leaned 1 1/2 to 2 degrees I frankly wondered if he wasn't making a mountain out of a molehill. A 1 1/2 to 2 degree variation "sounds" virtually insignificant. (Of course, missing a miter by as little as 1/2 degree is quite noticeable -- hmm.) Upon first reading the article and learning this actually involved a lean of approximately 1/8", I was forced to begin to pay a little attention. I could abstractly attribute a degree or two to accident, but 1/8" was a little harder to ignore. Still, I didn't (and still don't) know what to make of it. In fact, I didn't want to deal with it. I wanted the issue to go away. Having worked for years as a cabinetmaker/furnituremaker to acquire the skill to bore holes and chop mortises vertically, the mere possibility that planemakers could have deliberately leaned their wedge mortises simply hit me "wrong." Among the things Patrick Leach said was: > ... Molding planes are made from rough blanks that are allowed > to season for some time to let the wood reach equilibrium and > to cull stock that warps/checks/cups/etc. Stocks that pass in- > spection go onto the next step of the procedure, where the mouth, > mortice, and sole are cut and shaped. One of the last steps of > the procedure is to smooth the stock with a smoothing plane. Here, > it's entirely possible that a very shallow bevel, which results > in a taper from sole to top, can be introduced on the fenced face, > especially if a stubborn area of grain presents itself. At first I thought this might be a pretty compelling argument. This sounded similar to my approach when I'd made a couple of moulding planes. So I began thinking back over the steps: "....I'd picked out straight clear stock on the quarter, roughed out blanks, and then set them aside to season. When I felt assured they were stable, I then proceeded. The next step was to true up the non escapement (blind) side/face then square/joint the "sole." (These would be my reference surfaces from which I would lay everything out.) I then finished dimensioning the stock. ........ " At this point in my review I suddenly realized that I'd been dealing with this in the abstract when I had this concrete experience to draw on - not a lot, but some. In the first place, I would never have considered the blind side/face trued if it had any significant tearout. Really wasn't an issue as I had carefully selected clear, straight-grained material. For all intents and purposes, final truing had left it with very little smoothing necessary. Any final smoothing would have entailed no more than a shaving or two. While I have seen exceptions, it is my impression that professional planemakers also selected their stock with care. I find it hard to believe that any significant percentage of them would have accepted a trued up blank (either from his own hand or that of an apprentice) with surface defects serious enough to require planing a bevel of 1/8" across 3 1/2". Some minor variations surely were introduced through final smoothing, but I have trouble accepting an accidental variation of that magnitude. So what could induce a planemaker to plane off that much material on the blind side/face? One possibility which occurs to me would be if the stock distorted after the escapement was cut and the rabbet (if any) was run (and after layout, of course). If a piece has internal stresses, these kinds of cuts could result in distortion of the stock. I suspect if this were significant, the blank would be rejected by any decent planemaker. If the distortion wasn't too bad, however, he may have decided to salvage the stock. I don't think he would have been too concerned with the upper part of the stock. The lower portion, i.e. the "working end" would have gotten his attention. In other words, if he did any beveling of the blind side, the most material would have been removed from the lower portion. (Possibly this blind side beveling would account for some of the wedges which "lean" toward the escapement side?) [Incidentally, another source of wedges which "lean" toward the escapement just occurred to me. One partial "fix" for a moulding plane which has shrunk back enough to leave the iron profile misaligned is to open up the blind side terminus of the escapement. (Note, I am not suggesting this fix, merly reporting on it.) Possibly something to note if you decide to check your planes.] All of which leads me to the next consideration. When I was satisfied that the stock was true and at final dimensions, I began the layout. Of course, among the layouts was that of the wedge mortise on the top of the stock and the blind side terminus of the escapement on the "sole", which I laid out with the same gauge setting. Focusing on this hit me with a jolt. As a professional cabinetmaker/furnituremaker I take gauge lines very seriously. Good clean gauge lines have a singular surface quality which stands out quite clearly when you've just "split the line." There is no way in the world I'm going to "miss" on a gauge line by 1/8" "accidentally" and not know it. Even with trifocals! 8-) Drats! I really am going to have to try to come to grips with this. I am assuming planemakers used gauges to lay out these features. In the rough and tumble of producing planes by the gross, I would imagine that they looked upon these lines as more of a "goal" than I do on a piece of furniture. This, undoubtedly, does account for some of the minor variations encountered/reported. I would note, however, that at some of the larger planemaking establishments, moulding planemaking was seen as a "cut above" bench planemaking. In other words, they set their more experienced and better skilled people to this part of the trade. Plough planemaking, etc. was yet a cut above that, I believe? So while they may have "interpreted" their gauge lines a little more loosely than I do, I have trouble accepting that they would miss by 1/8" "accidentally." Incidentally, the notion of variations introduced by left vs. right handed planemakers, while interesting, may not be too significant. It's my understanding that most woodworkers of bygone days were more or less "forced" to work right-handed. [By the way, checked a few of my planes - finally! Similar variations as already reported. Did find two planes, a small hollow and a 3/8" bead, with 3/16" lean. We're beginning to talk the leaning tower of Pisa. Four of nineteen with no lean, all Ohio planemakers. (?)] So, I'm grudgingly beginning to wrestle with the notion that the lean in the set of hollows and rounds which Larry and Bill reported on could well be intentional. The significance of this, however, I'm having a hard time grasping. I've read and reread the section of the article dealing with the topography of the leaning wedge mortise/escapement terminus. The slight hollowing along the blind terminus of the wedge mortise/escapement sounds like fairly typical treatment if one is wanting a wedge to fit tightly at specific points which are critical. Haven't tried my floats for this yet, but suspect they'll be ideal in this application. Does the escapement side cheek of the escapement also lean? If not, I can see why this would force the wedge tightly against the blind side ecapement terminus. But, then, do you have to taper the wedge for a tight fit on the escapement side at the top? Either way, this seems like extra work to me, rather than less. I really need some help visualizing this. A thought as we "survey" this question. While I do believe that sets are critical to determining if any pattern exists, even these have to be viewed with some caution. Just because a set of planes came out of an establishment at one time, they weren't necessarily made by the same person. Additionally, what appear to be sets are not always sets in the sense that they have always been together. As a student/sometimes-practitioner of the wooden planemaking art, I'm constantly struck by the amount of craft tradition which is lost. While on one level I've been dragged reluctantly into this discussion, on another level I relish the opportunity to gain new insights [or confirm old prejudices ;-)] from a discussion like this. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 25130 ---- From: Norman Witt Date: 1997-08-29 05:53:00 Subject: Re: a Miter box If I were doing this, I would use a square and an accurate 45 degree triangle to lay out the cut lines, then carefully cut along the lines. You could also clamp a batten across the top, so that the saw can ride against it while you concentrate on following the vertical line. Norm W, who hopes he isn't belaboring the obvious. ---- Start of Message 25131 ---- From: Norman Witt Date: 1997-08-29 06:10:00 Subject: Re: How to loosen a stuck adjustable throat? k.johnson@c... writes: > The adjustable throat is stuck, from an unknown > cause. I suspect it's stuck from sitting idle in someone's > barn for many years and rusting. > > My question is should I attempt to loosen the adjustable throat > by liberally soaking in penetrating oil and then beating on it > with a mallet or is there a better way? The penetrating oil should help, but try to avoid pounding on the plane. Soak it for a week, then try moving the throat with the cam lever. Repeat for a couple more weeks. You can also try freezing the plane, or heating the area with a torch if the finish is already gone. If you decide you need to pound on it, clamp the plane in a vise and use a piece of wood between the hammer and the throat plate. Don't forget to remove the knob and cam lever before you do this. If you pound on a stuck piece of metal with a metal hammer, you risk deforming the piece so that it is tighter than when you started. Norm W, who has learned the hard way that beating stuck objects with a hammer rarely improves matters. ---- Start of Message 25132 ---- From: Norman Witt Date: 1997-08-29 06:32:00 Subject: Using a #5 as a scrub, was Re: Dating No. 9 1/2s Aubrey Washington writes: >I have an extra >#5 (Type 5-6) with a nasty 3/4" long 1/8" deep chip in the >mouth behind the blade. I have a good user #5 so I've been >wondering if the chipped one can be used as a scrub plane. >Will the chip reduce blade support too much? The side casting >looks awful thin; will the strain of scrubbing be likely to >break it? If I do use it as a scrub, what is the proper radius >for the curve in the iron? (BTW, I'll get a new iron and save >the old one for posterity. Also, lest anyone think I'm trying >to destroy a fine example of an old tool, in addition to the >chipped mouth, it also has the wrong tote and a nail hole for >hanging.) Although it won't work quite as well as a true scrub plane, it should make a great roughing plane. I would just use the existing iron, and put an 8" radius on it. Ignore the chip, and don't worry about the sides. I have a similar beat up #5 set up this way, and it gets more use than any other plane I have. It easily removes 1/16" shavings. A true scrub has a 1" iron with a tight radius, and a narrow body to match. I once tried putting a scrub blade in a wide plane body, with poor results; I had problems getting the furrows where I wanted them, because the blade was too far away from the plane sides. I haven't measured the radius on my scrub plane, but it can remove 1/8" shavings without the blade corners digging in. I tend to use my #5 for removing up to 1/8" of thickness, and break out the scrub for removing 1/4" or more. Hope this helps, Norm W. ---- Start of Message 25133 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-29 06:32:00 Subject: Re[2]: How to loosen a stuck adjustable throat? KAM, >I picked up a Stanley 60 1/2 (low-angle block plane) recently for a >few bucks with a problem. The adjustable throat is stuck, from an >unknown cause. I suspect it's stuck from sitting idle in someone's >barn for many years and rusting. > >My question is should I attempt to loosen the adjustable throat by >liberally soaking in penetrating oil and then beating on it with a >mallet or is there a better way? If I do nothing, the plane is >still quite usable in it's stuck state. Might I sugest Kroil! I would be surprised if you couldn't disassemble it w/ nary a tap! I got some when is was brought up before. The stuff is like magic! WAAAY better then the traditional stuff. No financial interest, yada, yada, yada, happy customer, etc... It does a GREAT job w/ cast iron. You have to call them up though to get it. Kano Labs (615)833-4101 Bruce Minneapolis, MinneSOta Just say (TM PL) it's the infill of penetrating oils... ---- Start of Message 25134 ---- From: Garrett Spitzer [SMTP:garretts@e...] Date: 1997-08-29 06:32:00 Subject: Vikings? -----Original Message----- From: Garrett Spitzer [SMTP:garretts@e...] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 1997 3:10 PM To: oldtools@l... Subject: Vikings? This whole thing sounds like some "snipe" joke... sinking Dutchmen.... buried Vikings. Joke? What joke? A serious question ... is this similar to what you do to stop a crack in metal; you drill a hole at the tip of the crack. The stress at the end of a crack is directly proportional to the radius of curvature at the vary tip; thus if you increase the radius by drilling a hole at the end, you greatly reduce the stress. It makes sense that you could locate this point by tapping the board; high stress=high pitch.... just stretch a guitar string to see. An eloquent and useful explanation, but a requiring a serious answer. Wood is an anisotropic material. Make a sawcut down the grain of a board. Drill a hole at the end of the sawcut and drive a wedge into the start of the kerf. Observe the result and give the lie to an Old Craftsperson's Tale. Jeff ---- Start of Message 25135 ---- From: Jeff Gorman Date: 1997-08-28 23:42:00 Subject: RE: Tulip Wood -Reply -----Original Message----- From: Gil Chesbro [SMTP:chesbrog@m...] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 1997 8:03 PM To: Steve_Bussell@i... Cc: oldtools@l... Subject: Re: Tulip Wood -Reply DOH! Poplar! We'll why didn't she just say so? Now I can have a lifetime's supply of drawer sides. What! Make drawer sides of this stuff? Nothing but English Oak for the best, but American will just about do at a pinch. That is for Grade 1, ISG (International Standard Galloot) drawer sides, not yer mechanised gear, of course. 8-). Jeff -- Jeff Gorman - West Yorkshire Jeff@m...,co,uk ---- Start of Message 25136 ---- From: Jeff Gorman Date: 1997-08-28 23:32:00 Subject: RE: Tulip Wood -----Original Message----- From: Steve_Bussell@i... [SMTP:Steve_Bussell@i...] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 1997 7:52 PM To: chesbrog@m... Cc: oldtools@l... Subject: Re: Tulip Wood Gil, I could be wrong, but I believe "tulip" is also known as poplar. The latin name for poplar is liriodendron tulipifera. My understanding is that one should speak of 'Tulip Tree Wood'. I think it is the stuff that, over here, used to be called 'American Whitewood'. 'Tulip wood' is something different, there being several varieties responding to this name. The stuff I have is an 'exotic' timber, very dense and hard, cream with reddish/purple streaks. Jeff ---- Start of Message 25137 ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1997-08-29 08:53:00 Subject: Viking Cutter info for Paddy At the tail end of something entirely different, Mr O'Deen wrote..... Paddy, trying to figure out how to adapt his routah into a viking cutter I hadn't realised anyone (least of all Paddy) would have trouble. Here's how to do it. - I used a Stanley #271 - the little router that fits your shirt pocket. All you need to do is make a new cutter. You could of course bastardise the original, but I'm sure no-one would be so unfeeling. WIth a new piece of tool steel - silver steel rod is fine - Taking your water powered and cooled grinder, shape one end of your rod roughly to the cutter shape. Now,heat a section about an inch from one end to orange red and bend to around 100 degrees angle. Paddy can use his leg vise. Complete the cutting profile, then harden by heating to a red heat and quenching. Polish the rod so you can see the oxide colours, then temper (Uncle Ron has recipes for using the domestic oven if you're unsure about the whole oxide colour (color) method) Sharpen the edge, cut off from the rest of the rod, which you have left in place to make holding it easier so far. place in router, test on nearest viking. Even Paddy can make this one! Richard ---- Start of Message 25138 ---- From: Beyers Coetzee Date: 1997-08-29 08:53:00 Subject: RE: On The Cheap GGs & Roger FWIW, I use those utility knife blades to scrape my leather strop every once in a while. Remedies it when it becomes too coarse. - Beyers ----------------------------------------- 394 Rooiribbok Street Waterkloof Ridge X2 0181 Pretoria South Africa Voice: +27 12 45 1408 email: beyers@a... ---- Start of Message 25139 ---- From: Jim Buchanan Date: 1997-08-29 09:26:00 Subject: Re: On The Cheap > A couple of recent posts talk about using disposable utility knife blades > as mini-scrapers. I inherited a box of 100 blades (along with assorted [...] > one with the small locking pliers and go at it. Anyone else found galootish > applications for non-old tools that they would care to share?? I use the back side of old hacksaw blades for scrapers. Works quite nicely after I square them and make a burr (tie-in to an older thread: using a machinist's scraper) Jim Buchanan c22jrb@d... jbuchana@e... ================== http://www.earthcorp.com/jbuchana ===================== "I have traveled the length & breadth of this country & talked with the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a fad that won't last out the year" -Editor in Charge of Business Books, Prentice Hall, 1957 ========================================================================== ---- Start of Message 25140 ---- From: Bramel, Jim Date: 1997-08-29 12:01:00 Subject: Plane Id You fellows did so well on the other planes could I ask for ids on two more? I have had these for a number of years and just found them in some stuff I had stored. 1/2" skewed rabbet (I think) - J. THOMAS on toe and heel also VARVIL? KOR? on the toe and W. CLARICOATS on the top --------------------------------- Coffin Smoother - E. SMITH WARRANTED Thanks, Jim Jim Bramel - University of Kentucky - jbram00@p... ---- Start of Message 25141 ---- From: Kinsey Date: 1997-08-29 13:23:00 Subject: blacksmith tool stuff Re Esther"s query: Don't go to NH just to buy a leg vice! The things are all over the place. You want one that closes square--check it standing up, just before the jaws touch. The jaws also don't want to be sloppy loose. Make sure the "plate" that attaches it to the bench is there and has the wedge to tighten it. Tongs: get little ones! Most of what you see are set up for heavy stock, which you can't work by yourself anyhow, without a striker. Tongs are a pain to use, so I avoid them whenever possible. But you need some: straight jaw, small bolt tongs, Farrier's shoeing tongs-these are the most useful types. Avoid sloppy hinges, though they can be tightened up. Anvils-good flat face, no chips, steel face, decent ring. Recent anvils are all cast, and aren't worth the paper they are printed on. You want AT LEAST 100 lb, but heavier is better. Keep an eye out for a small stake anvil-very useful & hard to find. Hardies should fit the anvil! Not much to say here--condition is usually pretty obvious. Bottom swages (rounds are very useful) ---- Start of Message 25142 ---- From: james j duprie Date: 1997-08-29 12:28:00 Subject: can this saw be saved? Hi folks.. I just scored a really *large* backsaw and miter box. The miter box is in good shape, but thge backsaw has been a bit abused. I haven't de-rusted it yet so I can't read the makers stamp, but there is some damage to the saw that I don't know how to fix. Apparently, some fool^h^h^h^h prior owner had some problems with to thin a kerf, and decided to set the teeth on part of the saw. Theres about and 8" section of hte saw that looks like someone grabbed the blade and bent it left, then moved down about 1/2" and bent it left, then right,.... Theproblem is, it looks like he didn't use a saw set, so the bending is actually in the body of the saw. the saw is about 2' long, and other than the above mentioned problem seems ot be in pretty good shape. It looks like cutting off 1/4" or so of the blade, then re-toothing the whole thing *might* save it. My questions are: 1) does anyone out there do this kind of work? (Its more than I can do. I know my limmits) 2) would it cost a fortune? 3) Is this the type of thing that a local saw sharpener can do, or should I try to get on eof the galoot experts to take it on? I'd like ot fix it up, as I occasionaly have a need for a fairly large mitre box, and the two go together very well. the good news is, I got hte whole thing for only couple of buck, so worst case, the saw becomes scrapers, and I start looking for a large backsaw in workable shape... Thanks JD ---- Start of Message 25143 ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1997-08-29 08:51:00 Subject: Re: How to loosen a stuck adjustable throat? On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:57:57 -0400 (EDT) k.johnson@c... writes: >Knowledgable Galoots, > >I picked up a Stanley 60 1/2 (low-angle block plane) recently for a >few >bucks with a problem. The adjustable throat is stuck, from an unknown >cause. I suspect it's stuck from sitting idle in someone's barn for >many >years and rusting. > >My question is should I attempt to loosen the adjustable throat by >liberally soaking in penetrating oil and then beating on it with a >mallet >or is there a better way? [snip] Living is always easier through chemistry. Heh heh. Give her a soaking with your favorite penetrating oil. I've done two 60 1/2's recently and it only took two applications of penetrating oil over a couple of days. Others have said to remove the knob, but I say don't. Just back it off a turn or two and use this as a means to apply force. Start by pressing down on the knob. If that doesn't work use a judicously applied tap from a mallet (small). Always remember the girls from New Britian respond to a slow, gentle, smooth stroke. Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 25144 ---- From: David Hegedusich Date: 1997-08-29 14:53:00 Subject: Water vs Oil Stones Galoots... No, I'm not trying to start the age-old debate of "which is better." Rather, today I picked up a sharpening stone at an estate sale. But, it's not obvious to me whether it's an oil stone, or a water stone. Is there some sure-fire way of determining? If I mis-ID the type of stone, is there any harm in using the wrong lubricant? BTW, this particular stone looks nothing like the Arkansas stones that I have. It is grey in color. My gut feel is that it's a coarse waterstone, but want to confirm before I ruin it. Thanks!! David -- ---- Start of Message 25145 ---- From: Ron Hock Date: 1997-08-29 15:26:00 Subject: FS: Vike-N-Cutt-R (tm) Oops, sorry, it's not FMM yet. Ron Ron Hock http://www.mcn.org/a/rhock Hock Handmade Knives 16650 Mitchell Creek Drive Fort Bragg, CA 95437 (707) 964-2782 fax (707) 964-7816 ---- Start of Message 25146 ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1997-08-29 15:39:00 Subject: Re: How to loosen a stuck adjustable throat? The penetrating oil should help, but try to avoid pounding on the plane. Soak it for a week, then try moving the throat with the cam lever. Repeat for a couple more weeks. You can also try freezing the plane, or heating the area with a torch if the finish is already gone. If you decide you need to pound on it, clamp the plane in a vise and use a piece of wood between the hammer and the throat plate. Don't forget to remove the knob and cam lever before you do this. If you pound on a stuck piece of metal with a metal hammer, you risk deforming the piece so that it is tighter than when you started. One of the things that I have done [following up on the "uses for razor blades" thread] is to [after doing / trying all of the above strategies] clamp the plane vertically, and tap a razor knife into the crack between the shoe and the body of the plane. This acts as a fairly evenly applied wedge to pry the shoe out without using undue force in one spot as might be the case if you were using an old chisel. Yes, the fact that the front of the [plane is curved means that the initial prying leverage happens in the middle of the shoe rather than evenly all along the width of the shoe, but because the blade is so thin, this force gets transferred to the edges where it is really needed pretty quickly. No guarantees, but I have done this three times with pretty badly frozen shoes, and have never cracked or damaged any parts... good luck Tom ---- Start of Message 25147 ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1997-08-29 15:39:00 Subject: Re: List Bickers - Motivation ** Reply to note from Odeen@c... Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:34:19 -0400 (EDT) > > Paddy, trying to figure out how to adapt his routah into a viking cutter > Check with Jesada, I think Carlo is developing a Viking bit. Ernie I'm not a collector, really. I'm just a user without enough time. (used by permission) ---- Start of Message 25148 ---- From: Mike Weaver Date: 1997-08-29 15:39:00 Subject: Re: How to loosen a stuck adjustable throat? At 10:57 PM 8/28/97 -0400, k.johnson@c... wrote: >Knowledgable Galoots, > >I picked up a Stanley 60 1/2 (low-angle block plane) recently for a few >bucks with a problem. The adjustable throat is stuck, from an unknown >cause. I suspect it's stuck from sitting idle in someone's barn for many >years and rusting. > >My question is should I attempt to loosen the adjustable throat by >liberally soaking in penetrating oil and then beating on it with a mallet >or is there a better way? If I do nothing, the plane is still quite usable >in it's stuck state. > >Thanks for your input. Be patient. I had a similar plane, and by unscrewing the knob, and *gently* pushing down on the knob it popped out. I'd try to soak it in oil, and gently tap on the knob. You don't want to beat on it, as you might damage the knob, or the threads. But, if you support the casting such that the adjustable plate is unsupported (and the rest of the plane is supported, it might pop freely rather easily. Or, maybe I just got lucky ;-) YMMV, -Mike ----------------- Michael P. Weaver Email: mikew@u... Database Program Adminstrator Center for Health Program Development and Management, UMBC, Baltimore,MD 21250 Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are mine, and not my employer's. ---- Start of Message 25149 ---- From: David Hunkins Date: 1997-08-29 16:36:00 Subject: Re: Plane Id At 08:01 AM 8/29/97 -0400, Bramel, Jim wrote: >1/2" skewed rabbet (I think) - > > J. THOMAS on toe and heel also Most likely an owner mark with multiple stamping. > VARVIL? > KOR? on the toe and Probably "Varvill & Sons / Ebor Works / York" ... British family of makers who were in business using various imprints from the late 18th c. probably into the very early 20th c. Quite common to find, as you can imagine. > W. CLARICOATS on the top Probably another owner marking. >--------------------------------- > >Coffin Smoother - E. SMITH WARRANTED OK ... got my Pollak out for this one. I know it's MA, but not the details ... "Ezekiel Smith II (1799-1880), the oldest son of Aaron Smith (w.s.), interited his father's workshop in 1823 .... succeeded by Edward H. Smith & Co. (w.s.) in 1874." There are early imiprints that include the Rehoboth (Mass.) location where his father had worked ... and later ones that include either "Worcester" or "Pawtucket.RI". Two different sized "E.Smith / Warranted" ... earlier (larger) less common than the slightly smaller one. David ---- Start of Message 25150 ---- From: John Gunterman Date: 1997-08-29 16:51:00 Subject: Guages I kinda hate to start a new thread the day befor a long weekend..... (especally when the bulk of FMM is gonna probly hit Tuesday;-) But I though, it may be best just to send this out and let folks think about it over the weekend and we'll get into it in detail after we've all had time to really ponder it, next week. Here we go...... I have recieved my LVT "wheel style" marking guage and it is bonerific! Everything I remeber and more... you guys should really try it. This guage promted me to doing some hypothesising about guages in general. Ralph has a great Guage Page up < http://www.mcs.net/~brendler/oldtools/gages/gagepage.htm > and hopefully his server can handle the increased traffic this discussion should prompt. I thogh it might be nice to get people to think about thier guages, what types they prefer to use and why. Before we embark, I'd like to toss out some Nomenclature and what _I_think_ they mean. Pin guage: a marking guage that utilizes a round pin traditionally sharpened to a point scribe the lines. Morticing guage: same as Pin guage but has 2 pins, one fixed and one adjustble. Cutting guage: a marking guage the utlizes a blade that has a single bezel held in a through hole usually via a tapered wedge Wheel guage: a guage that has a round cutting blade(single bezel) fixed to the end of the shaft, Panel guage: a BIG guage. all the ones I have seen utilize a pin for marking. (please expound or correct me as you deem necessay) I have come to the conclusion that _I_ do not like the "pin" type guages. They crush the fibers, get pulled off track by the grain to easily, the pins are a PITA to replace (IF they CAN even be replaced) when they get worn down, etc. I was originally not too happy w/ the cutting guage I had ( a new one from Crown)..... After exchanging a lot of E-Mail w/ Jeff Gorman, about a year or so ago, I finally reground the bezel of the blade in a shape that works (half crescent moon shape in profile) and I really like it. anywhoooo. I don't want to get too deep just yet for fear of tasting shoe leather. Lets see where this leads...... John, Have a great weekend, Y'all. Ohh... For those who would like a quick and satisfying project for the weekend... point your browsers to: http://www.mv.com/ipusers/gunterman/panel.gif Maybee, come Tuesday, we could have a discussion about how we all made it? ---- Start of Message 25151 ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1997-08-29 17:05:00 Subject: Re: Tulip Wood Kenneth Stagg wrote: > > John R Mudd wrote: > > Ed Bell wrote: > > > But I stand by my > > > suspicion that common poplar comes from the tulip poplar. While Merriam > > > may not be a great woodworking reference, is does follow popular usage > > > pretty well. From the Fifth Collegiate: > > > > > > poplar: 2. U.S. The tulip tree; also, its wood. > > > > Frankly, and I don't mean to be critical of you, Ed, but a dictionary > > is a lousy reference source for woodworking. Read what I wrote, John. I don't disagree. *But*, it *is* a standard reference for common language usage. And if I recall right, the person with the tree in question was neither a lumber man, a botanist or a woodworker, which means he's most likely using common language. Also, I'm not the only one who speculated along these lines, which further supports the common usage idea. Which isn't to say that we're not all wrong!! I don't believe that at any point I said incontrovertibly that the tree is question would yield what is commonly called poplar. I merely speculated, which is all any of us can do without seeing the tree and the resulting wood. > > My Merriam's says that > > a poplar is a slender quick-growing tree similar to a willow. Most likely--but again, not incontrovertibly--a Lombardy poplar. These were a very popular ornamental during my childhood in the area I grew up in (central Illinois). I can't say how common they are now. Kenneth goes on: > There's a problem here. Many people who deal with lumber for a living > know Liriodendron tulipifera as poplar (or Tulip Poplar, Yellow Poplar, > etc...), though it's not a true poplar. I have yet to see lumber from a > true poplar (Aspen, Cottonwood, Lombard, etc...) offered as poplar. This is what I was saying, also. > On the other hand people you work with trees for a living frequently call > Lombard Poplars or Aspens just plain poplar. Isn't this fun!!! Yes. > As for using a dictionary as a reference; why not! What we are looking > to do is communicate a specific idea and anything that aids to that end > should be welcome. Thank you. > One big thing to remember is that many of the names > we use for things are regional. Another aspect is that we are getting into terminology from two (or more) specializations. Remember that many common names for lumber pre-date the time when very many lumber men were trained as foresters or botanists. Shall we tackle cedar next? :-) Ed -- Ed Bell | On a quest for the perfect P2K North | saw set. Cincinnati Bell Information Systems | Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. ---- Start of Message 25152 ---- From: Brent Parkin Date: 1997-08-29 17:21:00 Subject: Help on the great blade documentary GG's, As you are all aware, Ron and I are currently creating a source for answers about plane iron dimensions. I have been busy drafting away for the last few weeks and am ready to give Ron his first 25 or so drawings. However, I need a little computer expertise before he and I get stuck in a corner. Could someone that is real familiar with various bitmap formats contact me. The plan has allways been to make bitmaps that users could download and print out that would be full size. However, when moving the drawings from AutoCAD to Corel and then exporting them to bitmaps the resulting files do not print out at life size. Sorry for the computer question, but there is old tool content here. Lets carry this on off the list. Regards, Brent Parkin Toronto, Ontario Canada eh! ---- Start of Message 25153 ---- From: Aaron R. Ionta Date: 1997-08-29 18:14:00 Subject: Re: Guages John Gunterman wrote: I kinda hate to start a new thread the day befor a long weekend..... (especally when the bulk of FMM is gonna probly hit Tuesday;-) But I though, it may be best just to send this out and let folks think about it over the weekend and we'll get into it in detail after we've all had time to really ponder it, next week. Here we go...... I have recieved my LVT "wheel style" marking guage and it is bonerific! Everything I remeber and more... you guys should really try it. This guage promted me to doing some hypothesising about guages in general. Ralph has a great Guage Page up < http://www.mcs.net/~brendler/oldtools/gages/gagepage.htm > and hopefully his server can handle the increased traffic this discussion should prompt. I thogh it might be nice to get people to think about thier guages, what types they prefer to use and why. Before we embark, I'd like to toss out some Nomenclature and what _I_think_ they mean. Pin guage: a marking guage that utilizes a round pin traditionally sharpened to a point scribe the lines. Morticing guage: same as Pin guage but has 2 pins, one fixed and one adjustble. Cutting guage: a marking guage the utlizes a blade that has a single bezel held in a through hole usually via a tapered wedge Wheel guage: a guage that has a round cutting blade(single bezel) fixed to the end of the shaft, Panel guage: a BIG guage. all the ones I have seen utilize a pin for marking. (please expound or correct me as you deem necessay) I have come to the conclusion that _I_ do not like the "pin" type guages. They crush the fibers, get pulled off track by the grain to easily, the pins are a PITA to replace (IF they CAN even be replaced) when they get worn down, etc. I was originally not too happy w/ the cutting guage I had ( a new one from Crown)..... After exchanging a lot of E-Mail w/ Jeff Gorman, about a year or so ago, I finally reground the bezel of the blade in a shape that works (half crescent moon shape in profile) and I really like it. anywhoooo. I don't want to get too deep just yet for fear of tasting shoe leather. Lets see where this leads...... John, Have a great weekend, Y'all. Ohh... For those who would like a quick and satisfying project for the weekend... point your browsers to: http://www.mv.com/ipusers/gunterman/panel.gif Maybee, come Tuesday, we could have a discussion about how we all made it? I have the BCT (Bridge City Tools) wheel gague and like it a lot! it hasn't seen much use yet but it willl once my Prototype #8 ED saw makes the round trip to get repaired %^( It got a boo-boo in transit. Otherwise a really nice saw. aaron ---- Start of Message 25154 ---- From: Jim Buchanan Date: 1997-08-29 18:14:00 Subject: Re: Water vs Oil Stones David Hegedusich: > there some sure-fire way of determining? If I mis-ID the type of stone, > is there any harm in using the wrong lubricant? [...] > have. It is grey in color. My gut feel is that it's a coarse > waterstone, but want to confirm before I ruin it. I was hoping that someone would chime in with an authoritative answer, so I waited a few hours before replying with my experience. I have a coarse gray stone that I got at a flea market. The instructions in the box tell me to use oil, but I prefer water, so I've been using it with water for a year or so now. I've never used oil with it BTW. So far, no problems, but it's just a sample of one... Jim Buchanan c22jrb@d... jbuchana@e... ================== http://www.earthcorp.com/jbuchana ===================== "Windows: The only computer virus with a user interface." ========================================================================== ---- Start of Message 25155 ---- From: Leimberger, Jeff Date: 1997-08-29 18:23:00 Subject: RE: Leaning wedges - not Gaussian If the handedness of the maker influenced the tilt of the wedges, I surmise that we might expect 2 somewhat normally distributed samples (one for lefties and one for righties) - yielding a bimodal distribution overall! Of course, we might also expect to find a truncated distribution at each extreme, as the maker (or his employer) tosses the extremes in the fire because they are too far from the "ideal". I'm all for people gathering data from their collections - but interpretation of the results may yield as much debate as the supposed purpose of the tilt! Jeff "whose reading of the List today is just a little too much like work" > ---------- > From: Pierre Fogal[SMTP:pfogal@g...] > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 1997 5:03 PM > To: oldtools@l... > Subject: RE: Leaning wedges > > Addressed to: David Tardiff Tardiff@m... > oldtools@l... > > ** Reply to note from David Tardiff Tardiff@m... Thu, 28 Aug > 1997 15:28:06 -0400 > > > > Not necessarily! Planes are asymmetrical beasts, and are made > primarily by asymmetrical > > people - handed, right? (or left....). I can easily visualize > fixtures, jigs, and just practices > > that would tend to pile up error more on one side of 90 degrees than > the other.... > > > > Quite true, but I gotta believe that even then the errors would be > random, > and therefore while the curve wouldn't peak at 90 degrees, the shape > of the > curve would still indicate that it was random (Gaussian). Whoa guys > this > is getting deep .... > > Pierre > ---- Start of Message 25156 ---- From: Randy Roeder Date: 1997-08-29 18:36:00 Subject: Water vs Oil Stones -Reply Dave asked: Is there some sure-fire way of determining? If I mis-ID the type of stone, is there any harm in using the wrong lubricant? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Whenever I can pick up a stone at auction for a dollar or two, I buy it. Unless it's obviously an Arkansas or a washita, I start out by assuming that it's a water stone. I usually can't tell if it's an oilstone or a water stone when I buy it because the last person to own it invariably used oil on it, didn't clean it, and it's gunked up. I often clean the stone with a solvent like turpentine (mineral spirits are a little weak). This usually does the job, but sometimes I refresh the surface by abrading it on another stone of the approximate grit or use the sandpaper-glued-to-glass trick. I usually don't invest the time in this latter method until I've decided that I might want to keep the stone. I've been told that if you get a definite slurry with water, it's a water stone. While that my be true, I've had very good luck using water on everything but my Arkansas stones, so I don't worry about it. I've been using water with all my non-Arkansas stones for a half dozen years now and have had no problems. I've run into a lot of wonderful stones. Almost all of them are better than the dreadful India stones, and some of these mystery stones are as fine as good soft Arkansas. I don't know if I've answered your question. I can report that I've rescued a number of stones that generate a thick slurry from a thick encrustation of oil, and that they performed quite well after this. I've gotten a few bad stones. I consider a stone to be a problem when it has a scattering of oversized grains in it that cut deeper than the majority of the particles. I like cheap coarse crystolon with water for the really tough jobs. I can't get very excited about modern day washita with either oil or with water. It's better to wait for a moderately flat stone than to expend the effort that it takes to rejuvenate a severely dished one. Right now, I'm down to about a dozen flat bench stones. I typically use about six when restoring an old blade. I line them up in their wooden boxes on the bench, get a cup of water, a little oil can (if I use Arkansas), and a rag. It goes pretty quickly. Randy Roeder Repaint houses, not old tools. ---- Start of Message 25157 ---- From: John Gunterman Date: 1997-08-29 18:47:00 Subject: Cleaning Tip (was: Re: Water vs Oil Stones -Reply) At 01:36 PM 8/29/97 -0500, you wrote: >I usually can't tell if it's an oilstone or a water stone >when I buy it because the last person to own it invariably >used oil on it, didn't clean it, and it's gunked up. I >often clean the stone with a solvent like turpentine >(mineral spirits are a little weak). I have had great luck cleaning up yardsale stones.... On the really stubborn gunk I spray it down w/ Oven cleaner and let it set for a spel, I then hem wash it down w/ a baking soda solution to neutralize any remaining lye before running throug the dishwasher(when SWMBO is out of the house of course) I only ever lost one stone to the heat of the dishwasher.. YMMV ;-) John {=================STANDARD DISCLAIMER=================} {_The views expressed are those of the author and may_} {___not reflect the views of Cabletron Systems Inc.___} {=====================================================} ---- Start of Message 25158 ---- From: Darrell LaRue Date: 1997-08-29 18:51:00 Subject: Re: Water vs Oil Stones Galoots, David Hegedusich asked about a mystery stone... > Is there some sure-fire way of determining? I'm just gonna apply what appears to be common sense to this one ... Assuming it's a used stone, you just put a few drops of water on it. If it's an oil stone the water will bead up otherwise it'll soak in. No matter how clean you try to get your oilstone, once it's been impregnated with oil it should repel water, shouldn't it? Let's hope I ain't got this too far wrong, eh? -- Darrell LaRue Oakville Ontario, Canada Opinions expressed herein are personal and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. ---- Start of Message 25159 ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1997-08-29 19:01:00 Subject: the SPAMMER (personal experience) Occasionally people post to the list asking for good sources of mail-order wood. For the record, I ordered a bunch of wood from the outfit that our lone SPAMmer Ernest works for, and dealt with him directly on the purchase. As the recent troll here may have been intended to drum up more bizness, I thought I'd report on my experiences. It was one of the most annoying business dealings I've ever had. The short version of the story: The wood was good quality. the service was awful, so bad I wouldn't dream of buying from them myself again (you, of coursde, should make your own decisions). Estimate on shipping, via phone, was $250. Then a phone call came two weeks later, saying that they had contracted with a private truck company, and it would cost me something on the order of $1800 (I was in shock, so I forget the exact amount). They were told, in no uncertain terms, this was unacceptable. I was then given a revised estimate of about $550. Still too high, so I asked them, if there really was no other option, to take off the order all the plain maple I'd ordered (something like 30 percent of the order). I was told this was impossible, as they had to special order it (??????) Plain maple? Special Order? In *Maine*?. I then received an email estimate of $250-$350, and authorized that. Stuff came UPS. Some of it broke in shipment, as it was just wrapped with three steel bands (no pallets). I was overbilled, in VISA, by several hundred dollars. This included a $3/bf overcharge on one component; a shipping charge near twice what I had been told on email; and a surcharge to return the wood from the original trucking company and rebundle it for UPS when I refused the massive original shipping fee. I wrote them twice, asking politely for a refund of the overcharge. I got no response. I wrote them again, saying I would go through VISA to refuse payment. I received a hostile letter in reply, saying they don't tolerate that sort of thing. I wrote again... I finally got back about half the money I felt they had unfairly assessed me. Along with another hostile letter, this time from their bookkeeper. Several months later, I ordered some wood from MapleLeaf Hardwoods, through Pete Taran. The experience was totally different -- very professional, fair, pleasant, quick, nice, etc. service every step of the way. (Wood's better too). This just underscored the wretched personal service I got from the guys in Maine. You guys looking for a wood supplier, do what you want, but it'll be a very cold day in hell before I even consider ordering from Northstar Lumber, Presque Isle, Maine. -- Andrew ---- Start of Message 25160 ---- From: Kevin Brennan Date: 1997-08-29 18:56:00 Subject: Re: Guages At 12:51 PM 8/29/97 -0400, John wrote: Snip >Pin guage: a marking guage that utilizes a round pin traditionally sharpened >to a point scribe the lines. and later: >I have come to the conclusion that _I_ do not like the "pin" type guages. >They crush the fibers, get pulled off track by the grain to easily, the pins >are a PITA to replace (IF they CAN even be replaced) when they get worn >down, etc. > There's your problem. Marking gauges with a pin are not sharpened to a point but filed to a (tiny) knife shape-I use an auger file. The point then cuts through the fibers instead of tearing them. Some even try to shape the cutter so the leading edge points (slightly) away from the fence so that when you pull the gauge towards you the fence is pulled more tightly against the edge of the wood as it follows the grain. I got the wheel gauge from LVT also and thought it was great until I noticed it was very hard to see the scribed line when it was used with the grain. I had to go over it two or three times to make it legible. My old Stanley "pin" gauge makes a much bolder mark. The pizza wheel guys work great in cross grain but a properly sharpened pin should cut through those fibers as well. I've recently found both a #97 single stem and #98 double stem (Stanley marking gauges Jeff) that each have a wheel cutter and pin at either end. This is the best of both worlds and I hardly ever pick up the LVT anymore. As to replacing pins it doesn't look too hard but of all the gauges I've bought new and old none ever needed it. I've heard of guys using nails as replacements but I think I'd try a sewing needle. kb ---- Start of Message 25161 ---- From: Alan N. Graham Date: 1997-08-29 15:08:00 Subject: Re: Backlash and Depth Adjusters On 28 Aug 97 at 17:50, Wade McDonald wrote: > Robert Kempinski recently asked for suggestions on > > Ways to eliminate back lash in depth adjusters. > > I recently read (in yet another article on tuning bench planes- I > think even as a newbie I have seen enough of these to last a long > time) the suggestion to bend the y shaped lever so one side pushes > against the rear and the other against the front of the depth > adjusting screw's slot for the adjuster. This might tend to tweak > the blade to the side as the adjuster is moved, but I don't know. > The author provided no caveat for older planes with cast levers > about breakage. But, if this works okay, it might be one way in > which the "cheesy" stamped lever is an improvement, since it is > bendable. > > Another thought is that one could dessicrate the adjuster by gluing > a brass shim "donut" in this slot so it was a little less wide. But > you'd have to do a nice job or the adjuster would tend to stick at > any rough spots. A good experiment for those $3 flee market junkers. This made wonder about two basic points. 1. Is there any reason (design, manufacturing, or the fact that the fork moves at an angle) for the slop in the depth adjuster? The only conclusion I can draw is that it is to compensate for the angular movement of the fork, pivoting around a single point. 2. Would a leather washer work to take out the slop, while still compressing when the fork requires less clearance at one end of its arc or the other? I somehow doubt the solution could be this simple, or it would have been widespread practise by now. Alan N. Graham ---- Start of Message 25162 ---- From: Wade McDonald Date: 1997-08-29 20:47:00 Subject: Re: Backlash and Depth Adjusters -Reply I made a suggestion or two on removing backlash from depth adjusters, and Alan Graham replied >1. Is there any reason (design, manufacturing, or the fact that the fork moves at an angle) for the slop in the depth adjuster? The only conclusion I can draw is that it is to compensate for the angular movement of the fork, pivoting around a single point. The situation seem analogous to the depth adjuster on the common 9 1/2 block plane. Here the stamped steel part is "easy" to bend to take out almost all the slop. If you try squeezing it too much, the wheel is impossible to get back on. (I take it off for adjustment.) SO a little slop is left, but only a tiny bit- much much less than in any of my bench planes, even the one in almost new condition. >2. Would a leather washer work to take out the slop, while still compressing when the fork requires less clearance at one end of its arc or the other? It should work, but- how do you get a washer in the slot which is a proper tight fit around the center of the adjuster slot? Though it might work fine even with a loose fit and is less destructive than gluing a shim. Dave Wolverton suggested using a twist bit to get interior holes in leather- maybe I'll see if I can make a washer and if a loose fit is problematic. >I somehow doubt the solution could be this simple, or it would have been widespread practise by now. Ya nevah no! Wade, scrounging for wood in Austin TX ---- Start of Message 25163 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-29 20:56:00 Subject: Re: Cleaning Tip (was Water vs. Oil Stones) >I have had great luck cleaning up yardsale stones.... >On the really stubborn gunk I spray it down w/ Oven cleaner and let it >set for a spel, >I then hem wash it down w/ a baking soda solution to neutralize any >remaining lye before running throug the dishwasher(when SWMBO is out of >the >house of course) With all respect, a baking soda solution will not neutralize lye, as they are both bases. In order to neutralize lye, you would have to use an acid solution like vinegar or lemon juice. The baking soda solution will only dilute the lye present. However, I don't know what effect acid solutions have on the stone, so I'm not advising anyone to dig out the salad dressing just yet :) Paul Shah Lipid Metabolism Tufts University HNRCA ---- Start of Message 25164 ---- From: John R Mudd Date: 1997-08-29 20:01:00 Subject: Re: Dating No. 9 1/2s Speaking of dating block planes, is there a type study with numbers? B&G talks about the differences, like in the case of 9-1/2, but doesn't assign numbers to them, so far as I can tell. But in some of the for-sale lists/FMM posts, the block planes are referred to in types other than 1, 2, or 19/20. Is there a formal listing of block plane type numbers or are these dealers just trying to categorize block planes somewhere within the age range of a bench plane? ---- Start of Message 25165 ---- From: Bill Clouser Date: 1997-08-29 19:59:00 Subject: Re: Guages On Aug 29, 1:56pm, Kevin Brennan wrote: > Subject: Re: Guages > At 12:51 PM 8/29/97 -0400, John wrote: > > Snip > > >Pin guage: a marking guage that utilizes a round pin traditionally sharpened > >to a point scribe the lines. Kevin says pins are ok if used correctly ... > > I got the wheel gauge from LVT also and thought it was great until I > noticed it was very hard to see the scribed line when it was used with the > grain. I had to go over it two or three times to make it legible. My old > Stanley "pin" gauge makes a much bolder mark. The pizza wheel guys work > great in cross grain but a properly sharpened pin should cut through those > fibers as well. > So, what about the question of whether the wheel should spin or not? I thought a pretty good argument was made a while ago by some Galoot, (sorry, forgot who), who said that he returned a guage which allowed the wheel to spin and only accepted one that wouldn't spin. Does the LV wheel spin? - Bill (maybe I'll get a 97 or 98 in Denver this weekend) -- ---- Start of Message 25166 ---- From: Rodgers Charles Date: 1997-08-29 21:08:00 Subject: RE: the SPAMMER GGs: I, too, admit that I have used this source for wood. I only recently joined the list and was unaware of any problems with ordering from them. I needed thin stock so ordered a couple of packs - one of 1/4 & 3/8 cherry and one of 1/2 & 1/4 spanish cedar (I think those were the sizes, but don't hold me to it). I ordered just before the news of a possible UPS strike hit. The strike caught me, and it wound up taking about 3 weeks for the order to arrive (UPS did deliver, on a Saturday, during the strike). The cedar is actually pretty good quality - wish I could say the same for the cherry. About half of it is okay, the other half is probably 25-30% waste. Not bad enough to scream about, as the total bill was under $200, but bad enough that I won't be using them again. Now for a gloat - Last night SWMBO agreed that I really need to build a real shop! I don't have too much room, but I think I can manage the real estate for about 12' X 16' addition to the back of the garage. I'm not a mason (bricklayer), so this will be something I will contract for. Not to mention the foundation work, permits, etc. My plan is to get at least three estimates for a turnkey effort and also try to figure out what I might save if I play the role of general contractor and hire the work as I need it done: foundation/slab, framing, roof, block & brick work (it has to match the house), electrical, etc. Anyone have any experiences they want to pass on, guidance, advice, etc? (If I screw this up, SWMBO will have me over a barrel for years and years). Thanks, Charlie ---- Start of Message 25167 ---- From: Aaron R. Ionta Date: 1997-08-29 20:18:00 Subject: Re: the SPAMMER Rodgers Charles wrote: > > GGs: > I, too, admit that I have used this source for wood. I only recently > joined the list and was unaware of any problems with ordering from them. I > needed thin stock so ordered a couple of packs - one of 1/4 & 3/8 cherry and > one of 1/2 & 1/4 spanish cedar (I think those were the sizes, but don't > hold me to it). I ordered just before the news of a possible UPS strike > hit. The strike caught me, and it wound up taking about 3 weeks for the > order to arrive (UPS did deliver, on a Saturday, during the strike). The > cedar is actually pretty good quality - wish I could say the same for the > cherry. About half of it is okay, the other half is probably 25-30% waste. > Not bad enough to scream about, as the total bill was under $200, but bad > enough that I won't be using them again. > > Now for a gloat - Last night SWMBO agreed that I really need to build a > real shop! I don't have too much room, but I think I can manage the real > estate for about 12' X 16' addition to the back of the garage. I'm not a > mason (bricklayer), so this will be something I will contract for. Not to > mention the foundation work, permits, etc. My plan is to get at least three > estimates for a turnkey effort and also try to figure out what I might save > if I play the role of general contractor and hire the work as I need it > done: foundation/slab, framing, roof, block & brick work (it has to match > the house), electrical, etc. Anyone have any experiences they want to pass > on, guidance, advice, etc? (If I screw this up, SWMBO will have me over a > barrel for years and years). not an expert by any means... but consider the following power - will you have any need for the ever evil 3 phase power? dust/curly shaving collection - better to put the noisy beast outside if possible Heat/AC phone - make sure and put in a phone line if working out in the garage alone, for cummnications - you NEVER know when a CLAMP WILL BITE YOU-and hard in the nether regions lots of lighting natural and electric some system to remove evil smells from finishes etc get a copy of the workshop book hope this helps Aaron - who is working out of a small basement ---- Start of Message 25168 ---- From: Kevin Brennan Date: 1997-08-29 20:39:00 Subject: Workshop building advice (was the SPAMMER) Rodgers Charles wrote about plans to build a new shop and solicited advice: snip My $.02: make sure you end up with a wood floor; it's a lot kinder to cast iron and sharp edges than a concrete floor-don't ask me how I know this. It's also a lot easier on the legs and feet after a long day. just say (tmpl) you won't have to stick your foot out to catch stuff etc. kb ---- Start of Message 25169 ---- From: John Letsche Date: 1997-08-29 20:40:00 Subject: Re: Dating No. 9 1/2s John R Mudd wrote: > > Speaking of dating block planes, is there a type study with numbers? > > B&G talks about the differences, like in the case of 9-1/2, but doesn't > assign numbers to them, so far as I can tell. But in some of the for-sale > lists/FMM posts, the block planes are referred to in types other than 1, > 2, or 19/20. Is there a formal listing of block plane type numbers or > are these dealers just trying to categorize block planes somewhere within > the age range of a bench plane? > Walter's big book has a type study for 9 1/2 block planes. I don't have it here, so I can't credit the researchers. John Letsche. ---- Start of Message 25170 ---- From: John Gunterman Date: 1997-08-29 20:41:00 Subject: Re: Guages At 01:59 PM 8/29/97 -0600, you wrote: >So, what about the question of whether the wheel should spin or not? I say NOT. Ralph (who obviously knows a lot more about guages that I ever will) stated they should spin. but I remain unconvinced. Matter of fact I tried it myself..... I loosened the screw on my LVT guage so the wheel spun freely ind it worked like cr*p. tightened it on down, worked like a champ. ergo, it should NOT spin, IMO. >Does the LV wheel spin? Not as it comes out of the box(blisterpack) If you loosen the screw it will.... see above John, (Though I can ONLY speak WRT the Lee Valley Tools version of the critter.) ---- Start of Message 25171 ---- From: Dave Wolverton Date: 1997-08-29 17:02:00 Subject: Re: Hammer Help?! (& "perfect" handles) I'll second what others have already written, that your hammer is by C. S. Osborne of Newark, NJ. Since you mentioned a claw, it is an upholster's hammer rather than a saddler's hammer. The saddler's hammer has a pane (the end opposite the usual striking face) similar to a Warrington style cabinetmaker's hammer, but thinner/more elongated. It is useful for striking small brads held in the fingertips, as well as for working into restricted spaces. The handle style you mentioned: >... About half way down the shaft the metal handle begins to >taper as Rosewood takes up the "plane" of the handle (and just a bit more). >It has two flush pieces of Rosewood one piece on each side of the hammer. >The peened holders for the Rosewood look to be cast as part of the hammer >and peened flush to hold the Rosewood... is commonly called "Perfect" style. (Those with more experience can probably explain where that name comes from. I just always assumed it was a trade name of some tool company who long ago lost the legal clout to monopolize the name, like "aspirin" or "xerox". ;-) About a zillion different kinds of tools have been made with Perfect handles over the years. BTW, this term is not necessarily capitalized as I've done, so be aware that a sales list selling "a perfect handled screwdriver" doesn't mean the handle is flawless! I suspect that there are collectors who specialize in perfect handled tools. dave Who is always on the lookout for saddler's hammers ("perfect" or not) -- Dave Wolverton Lucent Technologies, Holmdel, NJ Email: dwolverton@l... Phone: (732) 949-1125 ---- Start of Message 25172 ---- From: Matt Prusik Date: 1997-08-29 12:46:00 Subject: Re: Tulip Wood John R Mudd wrote: > Once you've seen the leaves, you should recognize it. Hard to > explain, sort of a Vulcan "live free and prosper" hand sign. You mean, "Live LONG and Prosper", John. Tulip Tree, aka Tulip Poplar and poplar are wonderful trees that yield excellent quality wood for any number of GALOOT type operations. But the wood is soft, in fact it's one of the softest hardwoods. Something to bear in mind for kiddie "kick plates", blocks and stuff where denting of the material is a real possibility. Matt - GALOOT and Star Trek Fan ... ---- Start of Message 25173 ---- From: Lawrence Russo Date: 1997-08-29 21:10:00 Subject: Re: the SPAMMER (another personal experience) GG's: My experience with Northstar Lumber was not nearly as colorful as Andrew's but none the less left me with a bad feeling about Northstar Lumber. I wanted a quote on 1000 bf of 4/4 FAS hard maple. He asked me if I had other quotes and I told him I did and I told him what the price range was on the other quotes. Never heard from him again, not even the courtesy of a no-bid. My feeling, if he can't offer a competitive price . . . I don't need him. Got my lumber from a Oshea Lumber in PA. In contrast another outfit Blue Ox Hardwoods, also could not match the Oshea Lumber's price, but they were pleasant courteous and helpful. I would defiantly consider Blue Ox Hardwoods for smaller quantity purchases. Since Oshea Lumber's minimum order is 500 bf. Good Luck to All Larry Larry Russo ---- Start of Message 25174 ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 1997-08-29 21:46:00 Subject: Re: the SPAMMER (another personal experience) The bottom line to all of this is, that reputable businesses, do not have to resort to disreputable advertising practices. We have done some telemarketing in the past, but it is for appointments, not to hustle products. My accountant just got her first junk fax from a local source.....is he in for an earful! Have a nice Labor day guys. Tony ___________________________________________________________________ Parental Woodworking 101--- That's right..I, CAN PUT SAW MARKS ON MY WORKBENCH! ___________________________________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 25175 ---- From: Brendler, Ralph Date: 1997-08-29 21:48:00 Subject: RE: Guages John G. Says: >>So, what about the question of whether the wheel should spin or not? > >I say NOT. >Ralph (who obviously knows a lot more about guages that I ever will) stated >they should spin. >but I remain unconvinced. If the wheel doesn't spin, you've effectively got a cutting gage with a blade that's impossible to sharpen. You'd be much better off with a real cutting gage. > >Matter of fact I tried it myself..... >I loosened the screw on my LVT guage so the wheel spun freely ind it worked >like cr*p. >tightened it on down, worked like a champ. >ergo, it should NOT spin, IMO. Depends on what you're using it for. I use my wheeled gages cross-grain only, and in this situation the rolling action leaves a very crisp mark. Using a standard pointed gage for this leaves a much more ragged edge. If you try to use a wheelie with the grain, you're right-- it sucks. The rolling action is a hindrance here, as it wants to roll right along the grain. I keep three gages set up for my normal layout marking. One is a Goodell-Pratt wheeled gage (like the Stanley, only better graduations) that is used exclusively for cross-grain marking. The other two are for with-grain marking. They are run-of-the- mill Stanleys, each with the point sharpened like this: | | | / | | <- Half the bar filed away, leaving | | a half-round profile | | | This layout gives my point a flat back so it leaves one straight arris on the mark. One of my gages has the flat turned towards the fence (for marking cut-offs) and the other is turned away from the fence (for marking rabbets). ralph ============================================================ Ralph Brendler (ENB/FOYBIPO/OTLM) Chicago, IL Woodworker and Collector of Antique Marking Gages http://www.mcs.net/~brendler/oldtools ---- Start of Message 25176 ---- From: John Gunterman Date: 1997-08-29 22:04:00 Subject: RE: Guages At 04:48 PM 8/29/97 -0500, Brendler, Ralph wrote: >I use my wheeled gages cross-grain only, >I keep three gages set up for my normal layout marking. Thanks Ralph! It all makes sense NOW. Use the appropriate tool for the appropriate job... (and collect guages....) "but honey I NEED 5 guages.. see.. one for inside marks on endgrain one for ouside marks on endgrain one for inside marks on edgegrain one for outside marks on edgegrain Huh? whats that dear? ohh I only listed 4 ... welllllll errr ummmm. ooh yeah, I need to keep one in un-altered condition so Victoria can sell it in 20 years to buy her books for college. yeah that's it" John, Can I go home now....please? ---- Start of Message 25177 ---- From: Paul Honore Date: 1997-01-29 18:06:00 Subject: Re: Dating No. 9 1/2s > >Speaking of dating block planes, is there a type study with numbers? > >B&G talks about the differences, like in the case of 9-1/2, but doesn't >assign numbers to them, so far as I can tell. But in some of the for-sale >lists/FMM posts, the block planes are referred to in types other than 1, >2, or 19/20. Is there a formal listing of block plane type numbers or >are these dealers just trying to categorize block planes somewhere within >the age range of a bench plane? > There's a rather extensive type study of the 9 1/2 in Walter's latest price guide. (along with studies of the 18,19,45,46,55,71 just to mention a few). Paul Honore phonore@i... ---- Start of Message 25178 ---- From: Geoff Roehm Date: 1997-08-29 23:10:00 Subject: the SPAMMER Subject: the SPAMMER (personal experience) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:01:54 -0700 (MST) From: Andrew Barss barss@U... I had a similar experience with Exotic Woods of Sicklerville, New Jersey, when I ordered a set of 4-A grade European Maple for an arched-top guitar. I spoke with a salesman at length about the quality of wood I expected, and was told that for my $200.00+, very high quality material would be shipped. When the wood arrived, it was poorly packed, not protected from humidity, and was barely 1-A. I proceeded to send it back for a refund. Well, to make a long story short, I wound waiting almost three weeks for the refund, and had to pay UPS shopping both ways! I consider these guys of the same ilk as the Northstar geek, and there'll be frost in Hades before I'll deal with them again. Being willing to pay premium prices does'nt guarantee either high quality or decent treatment. It's evidently a lot easier to set up a fancy Web page than to do all the work necessary to supply good wood along with good service. Geoff Roehm Tennessee ---- Start of Message 25179 ---- From: Brendler, Ralph Date: 1997-08-29 23:31:00 Subject: RE: Guages John Gunterman writes: >I thogh it might be nice to get people to think about thier guages, what >types they prefer to use and why. Ah, marking gages! A topic near and dear to my heart... ;-) My ideal marking gage has an adjustable point (nice to be able to remove it for sharpening), and brass wear strips in the face. As I stated in another message, a wheeled gage is a bonus for cross-grain work, but a detriment if used with grain. I prefer a round head (more comfortable in the hand), and not too long of an arm. So, if I could choose any gage in the world for marking, it would be the Stanley #197. It has everything I want-- marking point at one end, wheel at the other, large round head. All in all, it's a sweet tool. The big problem is price and availability-- these are quite scarce, and thus cost 3-5 times what a more conventional gage does. A more mundane second choice would be a Stanley #64-1/2. This is a beech gage with a round head and adjustable point. While they are not quite as common as the #61/#62/#65, they are pretty common and make super users. On to mortise gages! These are entirely different beasts, and have a different set of use criteria. My ideal mortise gage is *heavy* so it seats nicely when marking. Once again, it should have wear protection, and the oval head is a bonus. I want a single arm (easier to set) with a screw adjustment that stays put. So what's my ideal mortising gage? An English pattern mortise gage (aka "ultimatum" gage). These are really gorgeous tools, with solid brass bars and ebony heads with full brass face plates. All screws are recessed so you cannot bump it out of alignment by setting it on the bench. They are a little more expensive than their american counterparts, but well worth the premium. What would be my second choice? Actually, I wouldn't use anything else! ;-) The Stanley-pattern mortise gages have a couple of real usability problems. The #78 style is *way* too fragile for my tastes, and both the #77 and #78 types make it nearly impossible to replace a worn pin. Lastly, there's a class of marking gage that John missed, but no user should be without-- the butt gage! These are designed for marking hinge mortises for doors, but they also make great small marking gages. Every user should have at least one of these laying around for those small marking jobs. Pesonally, I love the type 3/4 Stanley #95. I find these to be the most versatile layout tool in my shop, and I'd wager that my #95 is used for well over half my marking. It can do basic marking and mortise marking up to about 2", it can mark hinge butts of all sizes, and it can act as inside or outside square. A regular jack-of-all-trades! When you also consider the fact that they are readily found for less than $5, are virtually indestructible, and can easily fit in your pocket or tool tote, so see why I'm such a big fan. ralph ============================================================ Ralph Brendler (ENB/FOYBIPO/OTLM) Chicago, IL Woodworker and Collector of Antique Marking Gages http://www.mcs.net/~brendler/oldtools ============================================================ Ralph Brendler (ENB/FOYBIPO/OTLM) Chicago, IL Woodworker and Collector of Antique Marking Gages http://www.mcs.net/~brendler/oldtools ---- Start of Message 25180 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-29 19:26:00 Subject: RE: the shop( was spammer) > Now for a gloat - Last night SWMBO agreed that I really need to build a > real shop! Anyone have any experiences they want to pass > on, guidance, advice, etc? (If I screw this up, SWMBO will have me over a > barrel for years and years). > Thanks, Charlie Big doors, lots of windows, lots of lighting, plumbing if possible. Even when planning on using you-powered tools, don't forget to put in way too many plugs. Might come in handy for the lighted magnifying glass for your finer work, stereo for woodworking, A/C (personal want), and as one guy I know was wooried about- He doesn't know how many years he will be able to have stamina- but he would probably be much better off without is preference for e-tools. David ---- Start of Message 25181 ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1997-08-29 19:08:00 Subject: Re: Dating No. 9 1/2s ** Reply to note from aowashington@o... Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:42:17 -0500 (CDT) > > noticed a few differences and began to wonder about how to date these > things. Perhaps someone out there in Galootdom can shed some light. Here > are the differences: My user is pretty much just like the description in Buy Walter's book. For the few paltry bucks there is more information than you can easily digest. The #9-1/2 is covered in a type study. Ernie I'm not a collector, really. I'm just a user without enough time. (used by permission) ---- Start of Message 25182 ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1997-08-29 19:08:00 Subject: Re: Guages ** Reply to note from clouser@p... Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:59:46 -0600 > > So, what about the question of whether the wheel should spin or not? I > thought a pretty good argument was made a while ago by some Galoot, (sorry, > forgot who), who said that he returned a guage which allowed the wheel to > spin and only accepted one that wouldn't spin. > That was me. BCTW agreed the wheel shouldn't spin! Makes great marks across the grain. Along the grain the marks are quite thin and hard to see. I will probably use the wheel along the grain and then score again with a pin gauge. My pin gauge is sharpened so as to cut. OTOH I have a BCTW Center-Scribe tool that uses a very sharp circular point. This thing makes great lines albeit a bit hard to see along the grain. Ernie I'm not a collector, really. I'm just a user without enough time. (used by permission) ---- Start of Message 25183 ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1997-08-29 19:08:00 Subject: RE: Guages ** Reply to note from ralph@s... Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:48:24 -0500 > > If the wheel doesn't spin, you've effectively got a cutting > gage with a blade that's impossible to sharpen. You'd be > much better off with a real cutting gage. Yup and nope. Who says it is impossible to sharpen? OTOH you can rotate the wheel to a new position as it gets dull. Mine is locked down and it works neat. Ernie I'm not a collector, really. I'm just a user without enough time. (used by permission) ---- Start of Message 25184 ---- From: Beck Date: 1997-08-30 02:07:00 Subject: Re: Workshop building advice ( > Rodgers Charles wrote about plans to build a new shop and solicited advice: > > snip > And Kevin Brennan added: > My $.02: make sure you end up with a wood floor; it's a lot kinder to cast > iron and sharp edges than a concrete floor-don't ask me how I know this. > It's also a lot easier on the legs and feet after a long day. I'll second that - having spent my 18th summer working in a cabinet making factory, my then young legs much preferred the days when I spent most of my time on wooden floors -- a day on concrete would leave me sore and exhausted. ---- Start of Message 25185 ---- From: Ron Harper Date: 1997-08-30 02:11:00 Subject: Re: Workshop building advice (was the SPAMMER) ---------- > From: Kevin Brennan kbrennan@u... > To: rodgersc@b...; oldtools@l... > Subject: Workshop building advice (was the SPAMMER) > Date: Friday, August 29, 1997 3:39 PM > > Rodgers Charles wrote about plans to build a new shop and solicited advice: > > snip > > My $.02: make sure you end up with a wood floor; it's a lot kinder to cast > iron and sharp edges than a concrete floor-don't ask me how I know this. > It's also a lot easier on the legs and feet after a long day. > I can add nothing to this very wise advice except a loud AMEN Ron who has a concrete floor and HATES it , signoff, to digest: listserv@l... > Other housekeeping: oldtools-owner@l... > Archive: http://mailmunch.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/archives/OLDTOOLS > When quoting, edit severely. > ---- Start of Message 25186 ---- From: Gil Chesbro Date: 1997-08-29 03:29:00 Subject: Tulip Tree: Summary GG's, My thanks to all those who responded. A brief summary follows. Peattie states: "This tree of stately beauty and immense practical use has a bewildering handful of names." Poplar, yellow poplar, whitewood, canoewood, tulipwood, tulip poplar, and popple, to name a few. Of course, the tree isn't a poplar and tulipwood is also the name of a tropical wood. The tulip tree in question is from the Magnolia Family (Magnoliaceae), which include the Magnolia and Liriodendron genera. The tree in question is the Liriodendron tulipifera. Its natural range is from the east coast to the Mississippi, and from northern Florida north to southern Michigan. I live just within its northernmost range. The tree is one of the largest eastern hardwoods, growing 80 to 100 feet tall and 4 to 6 feet in diameter. Its four-lobed leaves are tulip-like in outline. The trunk grows straight and clear. Its very fast growing, moderately long lived, and shade intolerant. The wood is light, soft, brittle, weak, easily worked, light yellow or brown, with cream-white sapwood. Its traditionally been used for trim, core stock for furniture, boxes, crates, pulpwood, and excelsior. It is one of the softest hardwoods, softer than any softwood in North America save Western White Pine and Alpine Fir. It is so buoyant that trunks were hollowed out and used as canoes. Hence the name canoewood. Though I've worked wood for many years, I'm still confounded by the vocabulary of lumberman. It makes me suspicious of every label I read at the yard. Sources: A Natural History of Trees - Peattie Michigan Trees - Barnes & Wagner Trees of North America - Golden Field Guides Wood - The Best of Fine WoodWorking Galoots - Oldtools -Gil Now who the @^$# made the crack about my not being a woodworker? Care to drop by and kiss my mortise gauge? ---- Start of Message 25187 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-30 02:38:00 Subject: Re: Tulip Wood Ed wrote: > Kenneth goes on: > > There's a problem here. Many people who deal with lumber for a living > > know Liriodendron tulipifera as poplar (or Tulip Poplar, Yellow Poplar, > > etc...), though it's not a true poplar. I have yet to see lumber from a > > true poplar (Aspen, Cottonwood, Lombard, etc...) offered as poplar. > > This is what I was saying, also. > > > On the other hand people you work with trees for a living frequently call > > Lombard Poplars or Aspens just plain poplar. Isn't this fun!!! > > Yes. > > > As for using a dictionary as a reference; why not! What we are looking > > to do is communicate a specific idea and anything that aids to that end > > should be welcome. > > Thank you. OK, I'll weigh in here. One of my degrees is in Botany and I have used a fair amount of poplar - tulip poplar that is. Ed is exactly right that the _wood_ (as in lumber) commonly known as _poplar_ is indeed tulip poplar from the species, Liriodendron tulipifera. I can't state this any better than Donald Culross Peattie did in "A Natural History of Trees of Eastern and Central North America": "This tree of stately beauty and immense practical use has a bewildering handful of folk names. The lumberman calls it Yellow Poplar or just plain Poplar, though of course it is no sort of Poplar at all. However to him Tulipwood means a tropical cabinet wood, so to do business with him one must use his terms. Country people call this wood Poplar too or, more easily, Popple, or Tulip Poplar, sometimes shortened to Tulip. Canoewood is heard in Tennesee. In pioneer days it was called Whitewood, and architects sometimes specify it by this name for interior finish. The foresters prefer Tuliptree, and with reason, since this name brings to mind the glory of this species in spring, when its flowers, erect on every bough, hold the sunshine in their cups, setting the whole giant tree alight." The poplar we know today almost seems to be from different species than the old growth timber that the pioneers knew. The second/third growth tree has grown under different conditions, i.e. less competition, and having grown faster is therefore a denser and tougher wood, as is the case with many other hardwood species. I have used some old growth tulip poplar and the difference in properties is striking. There is a huge amount of board feet of tulip poplar in the Appalachians and surrounding regions. I see it increasingly used for veneer core in birch faced plywood. It is a good wood for drawer sides and bottoms, etc.. The true poplars, Populus sp., are not as commonly sold for lumber, although their wood does have common uses such as for berry baskets. The lumber sold in the home centers is tulip poplar. Ed gets to do the Superior Dance. Turbo Mooning is optional ;-) **************** TomPrice@a... Will Work For Tools ---- Start of Message 25188 ---- From: Thomas E. McCluskey Date: 1997-08-29 22:39:00 Subject: Newbie Bio(Long) Tom McCluskey Howdy I've been jumping off and on this porch for the past few days like an ill mannered child. The polite and correct thing to do is to properly introduce myself. With your collective permission I would like to set a while here on the porch and do this proper. My name is Tom McCluskey and I live in Midland, TX. If you draw a straight line from El Paso to Fort Worth, Midland is halfway between. I work for a large independent oil and gas company as a tax accountant. I'm married and have a 14 year son that is just now learning about Scary-Sharp (tm). As a father-son project we are refurbishing a no-name #3 and #4 to add to his tool arsenal. I am wrapping up another wonderful fun-filled action-packed tax season and can't wait to get out in the garage and do some serious (work?, play? damage?) with my recently acquired and refurbished #46. My wife (SWMBO) is not a tool person but does have a love of antiques and pretty much let's me do what I want when I have to make important decisions like "Should I pay the electric bill or get that set of blades for my #46?" She can see the logic of getting the blades now. After all, blades are scarce and electricity is always being made :-). She's third owner of a 1924 T Model runabout. (Another restoration project for me.) I was a sports car buff/mechanic/restorer until the Oil Bust of the '80's. When the money ran out,I parked my cars in the garage and am bidding my time until finances and time is right to put them on the road again. As luck would have it. Something new/old came along and caught my interest. When Kate's mother passed away, she wanted one of her grandsons to have his grandfather's tools. ( The grandfather was a carpenter in the '20s & 30s.) Kate's son (by a previous marriage) took the tools but wasn't really interested in them. (His wife wanted him to take out the saws and desecrate them by painting some "ob"scenery on them). I this time I had an used Compaq computer I was trying to sell. Kate's son was interested but didn't have any money and he offered to trade me a box of old tools for it. I was not having any luck selling my computer ($350.) so I said fine thinking I might be able to sell the tools easier. Keep in mind that up to this point most of my woodworking talent was in the line of woodbutchery with a Sk*ls*w. (Is this an oxymoron?) With me, it was more like Unsk*ls*w. If you don't cut it straight the first time, glue, wood putty and paint would take care of it. When I opened the toolbox for the first time, I recognized some basic tools (chisels, common planes, squares, saws) but there were several items I didn't recognize. (compass plane, router plane, fence for a plane similar to #386 but made by Starrett). Still thinking in terms of dollars (what these tools were worth vs. what they represented), I ran to the library and studied up on what I had. Months passed, the toolbox just sat in the garage. The back screen door was sticking in the frame due to humidity. Rather than get out the B*ltS*nd*r, I remembered the plane I saw in the toolbox. I had seen my father use one to trim down a door so I thought "What the heck.!" On the first stroke, the wood just slid off in a paperthin strip. I was amazed. I had "used" a plane before, but obviously not one that had been properly sharpened and tuned. I was so curious, I went back to the library and studied on how to sharpen and tune a plane. The rest they say is history. Sorry for being longwinded. I have a couple of questions and I'll mosey on. 1. Somewhere I saw a post or a letter on " How to become a Galoot" and another "You know you're a Galoot when---." Could someone please direct to where I can find them or send me a copy? (I don't have internet access, just e-mail). 2. I need to put a new offset handle on my broadaxe and Kent hatchet. My research up to this point indicates that I need green ash or hickory (not common in the desert Southwest) in order to get the proper bend. Has anyone had any luck with bending a seasoned handle or possibly a source for a premade one.? 3.Does FOYBIPO require the infill to be a Norris? I figure the galootish way is to make your own and after reading Kingshot's book on making planes and looking at the pictures I'm game to try with a little assistance from from your collective wisdom. Waiting to experiance the FMM feeding frenzy with the knowledge of what's going on. Off in quest of tools Tom ---- Start of Message 25189 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-30 03:06:00 Subject: Re: Backlash and Depth Adjusters Alan wrote: >This made wonder about two basic points. > >1. Is there any reason (design, manufacturing, or the fact that the >fork moves at an angle) for the slop in the depth adjuster? The only >conclusion I can draw is that it is to compensate for the angular >movement of the fork, pivoting around a single point. > >2. Would a leather washer work to take out the slop, while still >compressing when the fork requires less clearance at one end of its >arc or the other? > >I somehow doubt the solution could be this simple, or it would have >been widespread practise by now. I just don't worry about it. I have tuned stringed instruments of one sort or another for long enough that I am used to the practice of 'starting below and tuning up'. On something like an autoharp or hammer dulcimer you start out below the pitch and turn the pin up to pitch and stop. Same thing with a plane. You start with the lever cap snapped down and the depth close, but not really cutting wood, and turn the adjuster, with it pushing fully against the Y-lever fork, so that is pushing the blade forwards. I give it a fraction of a turn, test on a piece of wood, fraction of a turn, test and stop when it is where I want it. Sometimes I have to back off a turn and start over but it only takes a few minutes to set up a plane. They stay put for quite a while. You'll go nuts trying to take out all of the slop on a Bailey mechanism. The top end of the Y-lever usually doesn't exactly fit the slot in the chipbreaker anyway. I do the same thing with block planes. I don't believe it is really necessary to bend the fork on a vertical post adjuster to tighten it up. For one thing you end up restricting the range of vertical travel of the knurled knob on the post. **************** TomPrice@a... Will Work For Tools ---- Start of Message 25190 ---- From: Pierre Fogal Date: 1997-08-29 22:51:00 Subject: Re: Tulip Wood ** Reply to note from TomPrice@a... Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:38:59 -0400 (EDT) > "This tree of stately beauty and immense practical use has a bewildering > handful of folk names. The lumberman calls it Yellow Poplar or just plain > Poplar, though of course it is no sort of Poplar at all. However to him > Tulipwood means a tropical cabinet wood, so to do business with him one > must use his terms. Country people call this wood Poplar too or, more > easily, Popple, or Tulip Poplar, sometimes shortened to Tulip. Canoewood > is heard in Tennesee. In pioneer days it was called Whitewood, and > architects sometimes specify it by this name for interior finish. The > foresters prefer Tuliptree, and with reason, since this name brings to > mind the glory of this species in spring, when its flowers, erect on > every bough, hold the sunshine in their cups, setting the whole giant > tree alight." Ok, Ok, I need one of these for my front yard ... anyone know if they'll thrive in Denver ? And I'd like to put in a good word for working the wood ... especially if you have Normite buddies. This stuff has a great (IMHO) surface when planed and a lousy one (IMNSHO) when sanded. I figure this is why the general advice is to paint it ... ughh! Pierre Dr. Pierre Fogal Physics Dept., University of Denver Denver, CO, USA. ---- Start of Message 25191 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-30 06:30:00 Subject: Bio Greetings, I've been subscribing for a while, and I think I've learned some of the etiquette and mores, but please be kind to a newbie. Over a longish period, I've built a couple bookcases (I love books, and my wife has a few of her own), and a few chests of drawers (to hold the fossils I've collected), and made some panels for over a fireplace, and done the usual utility shelves in various houses. Mostly my projects run toward making big stuff, not fiddly little things. I built a post and beam shed, 12 x 16, one floor and a loft, to hold the sawdust, and stuff, and to keep the smell of paint out of the house. (Family and neighbors helped to lift a couple of the bents.) I'm mostly thumbs, maybe all thumbs on a bad day. I confess I've occasionaly resorted to black-tailed apprentices when I was in a hurry, or result-oriented, but I do use hand tools when I'm into a project more for the fun of doing it then for getting it done. The shed had just 24 metal nails in it, not counting the roof. The rest was all trunnels, hand shaped. Early on, I had some hand screws, and I received others as gifts. I noticed all of them were made by Bliss, which didn't surprise me - I was born about 3 miles from where the factory used to be. Later, I got some others, and I thought I'd read The Book on Clamp Makers, to find out more. Well, I found out, there isn't any such book. So I started to do some research. I may still be a user (sometimes), but now I've got over a hundred of the darn things, and Chronicle has been kind enough to publish a couple of my articles on clamp makers, so I guess I'm pushing the line about not being a collector. I've been working on a website (members.AOL/com/ClampGuy/WCJ.htm) for those who are into such things; the big disappointment is the trouble getting good pix of clamps. As soon as I get through a few other projects, I have to update the Massachusetts makers page - I found another a couple weeks ago. In November, I'll be joining some of the CRAFTS crowd at Mercer Museum, in Doylestown PA. Also, I'm working with the MWTCA as they try to devise a data base for tools; I've contributed a rough taxonomy for clamping devices, but it needs more work. lots more work. I realize that not too many others are "into clamps", but it gives me a focus, and keeps me from spending all that green stuff that collects in my wallet. If questions about clamps come up, I'd be happy to be asked, but I won't hold my breath. And I read the FMM, hoping to see a goody come my way. Last week, I tracked down Patrick Leach, met his lovely wife, admired the huge holes in his floor, and the neat framing, and the other works in progress, but left empty handed. (He was kind enough to later send me photocopies of some Bliss bills of sale.) We'll see what Brimfield has in store next weekend. I think I may haul home a bunch of Narragansetts, if I can believe the dealer (?!). As for my day job (still got one), for some twenty years I was involved in software design and development. Does any else remember the IBM 505 CPC? That was my first machine. Then for the most recent twenty years or so, I've been involved in quality and productivity, in software design, hardware design, and manufacturing. Right now, I'm with an organization that is a third party assessor to various international standards. I'm also a member of the ASQ (American Society for Quality), and a recent project was working on a study guide for people who wanted to be certified as Quality Manager. The recent discussion about a certificate of expertise was real interesting to me, because of the issues of assessing people's competence and fitness. I hope that goes somewhere. Thanks for listening to me, and now I'll settle down and listen some more. Milt, aka the Clamp Guy ---- Start of Message 25192 ---- From: Chuck Lewis, N4NM Date: 1997-08-30 06:28:00 Subject: Contractors -long-(was "the SPAMMER") Rodgers Charles wrote: My plan is to get at least three estimates for a turnkey effort and also try to figure out what I might save if I play the role of general contractor and hire the work as I need it done: foundation/slab, framing, roof, block & brick work (it has to match the house), electrical, etc. Anyone have any experiences they want to pass on, guidance, advice, etc? Charlie, SWMBO and I are just now wrapping up the contractor's part of a MAJOR remodelling project (actually a makeover). Our experience is limited to this one project and this contractor, so we may have just been extremely lucky (HUGE GLOAT). I've listed below the contractor's characteristics which I think have made this such a pleasant experience: 1. His bid was not the lowest. 2. His bid was in the high 25%. 3. His bid was DETAILED. Not anal, but thorough. After a free guesstimate, we paid for his hours (about 60) to do a detailed estimate prior to signing a contract. It would have to be done anyway as the project moved along, so that cost actually just becomes part of the total cost, but this way you still have an option to decline before signing. 4. Contractors have various contract types; in our case he used a cost-plus with a not-to-exceed cap. His estimate assumed a 20% profit with an extra 10% for contingencies. The detailed estimate generated sufficient definition for all of us to be comfortable with our respective risks. When he bills me every other week, I get a detailed account with copies of ALL his bills (lumberyard, port-a-potty, subcontractors. etc.), including the hours his crew worked, by name and hourly rate. He charges me the total of these expenses and adds his 20% (this means labor, materials, subs, permits...everything). The contingency 10% is not charged; it is only used to set the cap. If he runs over, he eats it. If his good cost control and some luck brings it in under budget, we split the difference (looks like we'll split some!). Be careful that he doesn't over estimate wildly just to inflate his bonus! He's not likely to run wild on the estimate if he knows he's still competing with someone else. Since I did a good bit of "sweat equity" and felt uneasy about my labor going back to him in cash in the event of an underrun due to my work, we set a limit on the bonus at 5% of the estimate. In our project, this arrangement has worked wonderfully; I can check his arithmetic and his expense invoices and know that I'm not getting screwed. All costs are allocated to work blocks (site prep, foundation, framing, etc.) and this allows me to track progress and predict over- or under-runs. "Just like a business"! This may sound like overkill, but it only takes about an hour every two weeks, and there's no way I'm gonna be blindsided with this kind of clarity. His computer and his office manager just turn the crank...out it comes. Everything is in the open. There's no game-playing; if he's not onsite when the truck comes with the 30 sheets of plywood, I accept the invoice, look at it, and give it to him the next day. 5. He and his crew are intelligent, articulate and fun to have around. We make sure they stay that way; we feed coffee, icewater and bagels every morning; cheap at twice the price! The guideline is "be nice to your contractor and his crew...they've gotcha by the gonads". If you start with an adversarial relationship, it will only get worse, 'cause there will be mistakes; you want them to cheerfully fix them - not hide them! After ten weeks our guys are damn near part of the family. This way, you can be buddies, but you can watch them like a hawk; and when you have a question or a problem with what they're doing, you have a better chance of resolving it. 6. His reputation is based on quality and craftsmanship (this is the galoot part). His crew works for him because he lets them do a craftsmanlike job even if it means doing it over (like compound angle cuts on studs). He kids his lead finish carpenter by saying "you can take the carpenter out of the cabinet shop, but you can't take the cabinet maker out of the carpenter". This, after the third trip up the scaffold to recut a miter. 7. He did NOT say, "Our goal is to get finished and out of your hair with as little disruption as possible". That guy lost. Our guys come to me whenever there's the slightest chance of misinterpretationof the plans or if there's a homeowner's choice to be made. We're not interested in speed at the expense of quality. Disruption is part of the environment...don't plan any dinner parties while the work is ongoing. Expect to have some decisions that will best be made in "realtime', when you can see stuff in 3-D and wave your arms at it. Expect some breakage, and allow for it; move your good crystal out of the way (we have SEVERAL holes in the ceiling where his crew and I..twice..stepped through). Hide your good tools, cause even if your main crew is trustworthy, the subs might not be. Mark your name on any of your tools that you plan to use during the project. Be willing to share...(my type 11 #5C got some use, and generated a "Nice Plane!"), and they'll reciprocate (I get to use the fr*m*ng n**l*r over the weekends). 8. He is genuinely interested in our project. It has some challenging aspects even though it's small by his standards. We have kept pretty good photo records, and he's anxious to get a set for his scrapbook. 9. His references echoed everything I just wrote. Bottom line, don't use the lowest bid as the sole criterion for selection. You might not always get a loser with the lowest bid, but you are not as likely to find the characteristics I listed. I'm convinced that if we had gone with a lower bid, we would have spent as much in the long run correcting screw-ups, paying for marriage counseling, sedatives, etc. instead of thoroughly enjoying every bit of this project, as we have. Hire the guy you "click" with; your instincts will probably be pretty good here. Corollary: If you feel uneasy about the guy before you begin, it will only get worse. As to whether to act as General Contractor, I'm glad we didn't so far, but our part is just now starting, since our contractor is only doing the major framing and roofing. Having gained some experience, we'll do the rest ourselves and sub out some parts. And the last bit of advice, "If this is a really big project, RETIRE FIRST!!!" Hope this helps, and has just enough relevance (even the Porch might need to be fixed from time to time). Chuck Lewis (Who is sleeping soundly, looking forward to every morning, and soon to have his workshop back) ---- Start of Message 25193 ---- From: Thomas E. McCluskey Date: 1997-08-30 07:27:00 Subject: Re:Newbie Bio Tom McCluskey Just reread my post. Forgot to mention my SWMBO is Kate. Sorry Tom ---- Start of Message 25194 ---- From: Thomas E. McCluskey Date: 1997-08-30 07:39:00 Subject: Walter's Price Guide Can someone please post where I can get a copy of this Walter's price that everyone refers to. I've been to the mall book merchants and the best they can do is to give me the address of the publisher. for some reason they can't order it. Thanks ---- Start of Message 25195 ---- From: J. Gunterman Date: 1997-08-30 12:50:00 Subject: sycamore scan for those of you interested Dan sent me a peice of vaneer wich I scanned and put on the web..... point you browsers to: http://www.cnh.mv.net/ipusers/gunterman/images/sycamore.jpg I scanned at 1200 DPI and enlarged it pretty so you can pick up the incredible detail in the patters.. WOW this is some nice stuff!!! L8r, John ---- Start of Message 25196 ---- From: Geoff Roehm Date: 1997-08-30 13:26:00 Subject: Newbie Bio(Long) Tom McCluskey Subject: Newbie Bio(Long) Tom McCluskey Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:39:37 EDT From: tmcclus@j... (Thomas E. McCluskey [snip] 2. I need to put a new offset handle on my broadaxe and Kent hatchet. My research up to this point indicates that I need green ash or hickory (not common in the desert Southwest) in order to get the proper bend. Has anyone had any luck with bending a seasoned handle or possibly a source for a premade one.? [snip] Hi! I've been lurking and putting my $0.02 worth in from time to time over the past few weeks, but still haven't had time to get a bio together. Will try and do that soon. In the meantime, I just couldn't resist shooting off my mouth on the broadaxe question. First, I wouldn't bend it. I have a hand-forged broadaxe with a forge-welded, laminated steel bit, that appears to be Damascus. I made a handle (haft?) for it about 15 years ago from the sweepy end of a hickory. I looked long and hard to find a tree with the approximate "double-crook" (see SPAMMER) of the finished piece. As I remember, I started with a log about 16" in diameter and a little longer than the haft, and _split_ the blank out in both directions. Splitting makes the grain direction follow the lines of the finished haft, and is both much stronger and seems to feel better after carving. I had no pattern, so I just sort of eyeballed the thing, fitting the head to the haft and trying it out as the shaping progressed. You might want to daub some polyurethane on the end-grain to help prevent checking. If there is any interest, I could probably draw it up and make it available off-list. I made my haft quite short, since I use my axe _after_ the adz for the final finishing step, rather than the other way around. After popping the blocks out with the adz, I turn the log so the face is perpendicular to the ground. I then kneel next to the log, and shear the surface smooth with overlapping shallow cuts, pulling the axe down and back. It's easier to do than to describe. In any case, you'll probably want to make the haft much shorter than a standard double-bit. You'll also want to make sure the wood is seasoned, not green, before you do the final finishing and fit-up. If you can't find any hickory around you, let me know and I'll try and find you a stick of kindlin' from over here in Tennessee. Geoff Roehm Tennessee ---- Start of Message 25197 ---- From: John Hunt Date: 1997-08-30 13:54:00 Subject: Re: Walter's Price Guide Looking at the back of my copy I see: John Walter The Tool Merchant 614-373-9973 and The Old Tool Shop 208 Front St. Marietta, ohio 45750 I don't know that you can get the books from Mr. Walter, but I bet this wold be a good place to start. -John- On Sat, 30 Aug 1997, Thomas E. McCluskey wrote: > Can someone please post where I can get a copy of this Walter's price > that everyone refers to. I've been to the mall book merchants and the > best they can do is to give me the address of the publisher. for some > reason they can't order it. > Thanks > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25198 ---- From: J. Gunterman Date: 1997-08-30 13:54:00 Subject: My new Bow Saw Well I'm happy to report that my Bow Saw (#117) finally arrived. And let me tell you... I give it two thumbs up w/ a snap in "Z" formation. I have gloated about a lot of tools and shilled for a lot of folks but only a rare few come close to the grace beauty and form of this tool. (The I.T. Dovetail Saw and S.W. marking knife are a close tie for second, the L-N#62 a third, but this bow saw wins, hands down IMO.) The frame and stretcher is made out of Easter hard maple, Octagonal purpleheart turned handles, Teak tention bar, Paduak tention bar holder..... ohhh PRETTY !!! right down to the danish oil finish. The saw looks totally natural sitting next to my vintage as well as finer new tools. The cording was supposed to be waxed linnen but Steve was having troubles getting the stuff ant any price (wich was partilly to blame for the delay) so he substituted "Fast Flight 54" archery bow string (at my recomendation, I used to fancy myself a fletcher;-) and he and I are both very happy w/ the results. Not as traditional as waxed linnen, but will not stretch, and is readily avalible . It is the DETAILS of the saw that impress me the most. The various wood species selected for different components give the saw a great look and feel and each is used in that area to capotlize on it's strenghts. In assmeblng the saw I was really taken w/ the fit of it all. the mortice and tennon joints were _really_ snug, not so bad that aI had to pound them together but I had to really push and jiggle to get them together, the throughholes for the brass rods that hold the blkade were the same way.. incredibly close tolerances were maintained.... Even down to the marking of the saw..... Steves mark, and the saw's #, my name etched into one arm and 1997 in the other, but in the end so as not to dtract from the gracefull lines of the saw.... I had intended to get this saw toi use as a patter to make my own, but after looking at it, I can honestly say that _I_ could not attain his level of craftsmanship exhibited in the saw... As far as me being a bit peeved at the long wait and requiring payment in advance... I now say "piffle" Now that I have it, and it is MINE, I have come to the conclusion that, I honestly would have paid double and waited 3 times as long and have still been delighted with my purchase upon delivery. The saw costs $100.00 Extra blades are $10.00 Shipping was $6.00 Delivery time on my saw was 4 Months from time of order. (YMMV) you may order your saw from: Steve W. Johnson (208) 888-2413 238 East Pine Ave. Meridian Idaho 83642 Tell him you heard about it here ;-) John another satisfied customer. ---- Start of Message 25199 ---- From: christopher m nordstrom griffiths Date: 1997-08-30 14:08:00 Subject: Re:Gauges Howdy, On the subject of marking gauges, a previous post noted that an improved shape for the pin of a pin gauge is closer to that of a rounded knife edge than to the typical conical shape in which they are often sold. For those who want a visual reference, Frank Klaus describes it in _FWW on Bench Tools_. He also recommends angling the pin slightly, as was previously mentioned. As far as replacement pins are concerned (and I'm not sure whether I read this in the same volume or not...) HSS drill bits are an excellent source of replacement or new pins. They have the advantage of being available locally in a wide variety of sizes, so you can drill a hole (in a new gauge, naturally) that will provide a tight friction fit for a slightly larger piece of steel. Of course, you could also size your bit purchase to fit an existing gauge. As a bit of a testimonial... I made a couple of single-pin marking gauges (one for myself and one for a close friend) using the above materials and methods. The gauges were of the Harris Tool style seen in Garrett Wade, more or less- basically a cam action style... No threading, no mortising, just two pieces of wood which lock together when you twist them. I highly recommend this design- it's actually quite a precise adjustment mechanism and easy to construct. They work very nicely, leaving clear, straight marks on end or edgegrain. Best regards, Christopher Nordstrom Griffiths ---- Start of Message 25200 ---- From: Stu Ritter Date: 1997-08-30 15:51:00 Subject: Re: Workshop building advice GG's; Just a few ideas from one who recently underwent the construction proccess.. 1. Think, think, think and then think some more.. 2. Springy wooden floors...aahhhhhh!!! 3. Cross ventilation if possible 4. North lighting at the workbench if possible and more windows than you think you will ever use 5. More lumins of lighting then you think you will ever use 6. More plugs in more locations than you think you will ever use 7. A large exhaust fan isn't a bad idea 8. More tools than you think you will ever use 9. I find an intercomm very nice to have (so that SWMBO can beep in instead of barge in) 10. A really large door (larger than you think you will ever use) Ahhhhh, the kingdom of heaven on earth.....a shop.!!!!!! regards Stu a user ---- Start of Message 25201 ---- From: Bill Mixon Date: 1997-08-30 15:23:00 Subject: Oldtools class at North Bennet Street school Howdy y'all --- Voice from the past here. I've been so distracted by work and stuff, I just lurk sporadically here lately. Hope to be back later. Passing this along as I think it might be of general interest, at least to you New England galoots. Hope it's not redundant info. The North Bennet Street School (39 North Bennet St., Boston, MA 02113, phone 617-227-0155) is offering a workshop (limited to 12 students) from 9AM to 5PM on on Saturday, October 25th, 1997, titled "Revitalizing Used Hand Tools", taught by Caleb Hemphill. I'll quote the course description from the brochure here: "Nearly every woodworker has purhased or been given an antique or used hand tool. Older tools are often superior to their newly manufactured equivalents, yet most are in need of some overhaul to restore their original utility. This one-day workshop will focus on how to restore life to older hand tools. Students should bring a used edge tool such as a hand plane, chisel or saw to work on in class. The instructor will have examples of other tools on hand for demonstration and discussion. Tool sharpening will be briefly reviewed; interested students may want to follow this course with the tool sharpening clinic on October 28 & 30." "Topics will include: * cleaning, resurfacing, and polishing * tuning and improving performance of tools * tool maintenance * where and when to find old tools - what to look for and what to avoid * distinguishing highly collectible tools from user tools" The brochure also gives a brief bio of the instructor: "Caleb Hemphill is a 1996 graduate of the Preservation Carpentry program at NBSS and is working for the Society for the Preservation of New England Antiquities as a preservation carpenter." Since this isn't FMM (and I'm neither buying nor selling, just passing info along) I won't quote the workshop price, but 'tain't much. Seeya. --- Bill "I'd rather be in the shop" Mixon ---- Start of Message 25202 ---- From: Mark van Roojen Date: 1997-08-30 20:25:00 Subject: Re: Contractors -long-(was "the SPAMMER") At 07:28 AM 8/30/97 +0100, Chuck Lewis, N4NM wrote: >Rodgers Charles wrote: >My plan is to get at least three >estimates for a turnkey effort and also try to figure out what I might >save if I play the role of general contractor and hire the work as I >need it done: foundation/slab, framing, roof, block & brick work (it has >to match the house), electrical, etc. Anyone have any experiences they >want to pass on, guidance, advice, etc? I've snipped Chuck's hugely informative reply to add just a bit of experience of my own. I'm 4/5 of the way through adding a kitchen to my 1914 foursquare house. The previous kitchen had been moved from one of the four quadrants and on to what had probably been either a back porch or pantry area, along with a 1/2 bath in the same footprint. The yuppie speculator who bought it from the heirs of the previous owners had torn out a lot of it, when we bought it on the condition that he reinstall what was left of the bathroom sinks & toilets and otherwise quit work on the place. So we bought a house with no kitchen, a nice breakfast nook, and very little room where the kitchen had been (I mean 5' x 15' with another 5 x 4 feet for an 'L' not all of it usable because it was on route to the back door. I spent a long time reading everything I could get my hands on about adding on. Then I hired someone to pour footings and make a block kneewall for the foundation (creating a crawlspace) sticking out about 7' from the existing walls. From there, with an occasional bit of help from friends (to lift steel beams and the like where whe wall had come out) Jennifer and I have done it ourselves. That is except for running a new gas line. Both of the hired out projects had to be redone. The gasline twice. The foundation block cracked once because of a lack of rebar as specified. My plumbing, framing and electrical work passed each inspection with no trouble - well I did have to rewire one plug for 20 amps rather than 15 amps because code requires all kitchen plugs to be at that amparage. Out of this, I can think of two or three bits of advice that might be useful even if you sub out the work. First, read up on everything as well as you can. I spent about $500 of my budget on renovation books and the like. That way you can be very clear about what you want when dealing with contractors. Second, don't be shy when things are not done as specified. The cracking foundation was something that would not have happened had the contractor done things as specified. I had plans with rebar, that the city building department had required I put in, and which they had signed off on. When I caught the contractor's crew not using it, I told them that the plans required rebar. They said that was news to them (the contractor had lost the plans). I tried to get them to do it, but I was not as stubborn as I should have been. I called the city building department and they sent the inspector out. But the workers managed to pursuade him that it wasn't necessary for the kneewall since it would not have much lateral pressure. They were wrong and two weeks later it cracked. I was right and the pros were wrong, but I had not been insistant enough to avoid what came to a month's delay to get things fixed. Next time I will have more confidence to insist on what I require. Third, call your inspectors and ask lots of questions before making decisions that could cause them trouble. I used just about all recycled wood (much better quality than what I can buy now, and cheaper) for the framing. Technically around here one is not allowed to use used materials. But I called the inspector and had his permission before he showed up to inspect the framing. And I called him several times along the way with code questions. When I called the city for the final inspection, I was told that he had already signed off on the entire job. I think that was because between the questions and what he saw on site he was confident I'd finish everything right. Around here, they are sometimes even willing to come out and have a look before you pull the permit. When I did this for some facia and soffet work, he told me that in his eyes it was not structural so I did not need a permit to do what I was doing. Saved me the $32 for the permit. The whole process has gone a lot slower than I ever imagined. It has been over a year, and while I am using the kitchen I am not yet done with the finish carpentry and cabinet doors. I have gotten to use my hand tools quite a lot, but I did use some powered tools along the way. I'm not sure I would do it again (once in a lifetime may be enough) but I think I am very glad that I did it once. Mark Mark van Roojen P.O. Box 83836 Department of Philosophy Lincoln, NE 68501-3836 University of Nebraska (402) 438-3724 (h) 1010 Oldfather Hall (402) 472-2428 (w) Lincoln, NE 68588-0321 (402) 472-0626 (fax) ---- Start of Message 25203 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-30 21:32:00 Subject: Spokeshave Book Many of you have doubtless received the impressive flyer for the new Manufactured and Patented Spokeshaves & Similar Tools by Thomas C. Lamond. I notice it indicates availability expected mid-August. Has anyone actually seen this book yet? If so, I would appreciate any impressions before sending off $75 to order. Remembering some of Mr. Lamond's articles in the past, and the extreme attention to detail, type illustrations and the desire to exhaust the subject, I anticipate this may set a new standard in old tool publication. The flyer is very enticing. Just wanted to see if it is out there in any grubby hands yet. Lloyd Henley ---- Start of Message 25204 ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1997-08-30 21:38:00 Subject: drawknife ID (gloat?) I picked up a killer drawknife at a g-sale yesterday...the guy having the sale asked what I was looking for, I told him, and he said, "Well I have ONE thing... and he goes and digs out his grandfathers drawknife. I wasn't even going to offer since it was a family heirloom (at least it would have been to me!). The guy says, "gimme five bucks, it's yours"...It's mine It is in GREAT shape...came sharp with a nice craftsman made bladeguard...the blade is stamped 8 for the length...a big "G" on the left side, and the logo is an oval with what looks like D. E. Ramton 1832 Rochester NY inside the oval. Anyone ever heard of this guy? This is one beefy knife...big handles. brass ferrules, and THICK steel. The back bevel is almost mirror smooth...never been hammered on...yummy (it's been SOOOOOO long since I found something gloatable!) I also picked up a 6" Hall machinists level that is something like the Stanley #43, except that it also has a nice little level widthwise, so it levels two directions at once. The lengthwise level is adjustable on one end, and is in an aluminum tube that closes to protect the vial. Question...the vial is graduated on the long side....is there a standard degree reading that one can extract from this scale? e.g., if it is one mark off, is the equipment one degree off level? Or how does one use these markings? Thanks for the help on these items...it was FUN! Tom ---- Start of Message 25205 ---- From: Mark van Roojen Date: 1997-08-30 21:38:00 Subject: Re: drawknife ID (gloat?) At 04:38 PM 8/30/97 -0500, Tom Johnson wrote: >I picked up a killer drawknife at a g-sale yesterday...the guy having the sale >asked what I was looking for, I told him, and he said, "Well I have ONE thing... >and he goes and digs out his grandfathers drawknife. I wasn't even going to >offer since it was a family heirloom (at least it would have been to me!). The >guy says, "gimme five bucks, it's yours"...It's mine > >It is in GREAT shape...came sharp with a nice craftsman made bladeguard...the >blade is stamped 8 for the length...a big "G" on the left side, and the logo is >an oval with what looks like D. E. Ramton 1832 Rochester NY inside the oval. >Anyone ever heard of this guy? This is one beefy knife...big handles. brass >ferrules, and THICK steel. The back bevel is almost mirror smooth...never been >hammered on...yummy (it's been SOOOOOO long since I found something gloatable!) My guess is that it is a D. R. Barton. Barton was founded in 1832 and used that year in their stamped logos for quite some time. A nice find! Mark Mark van Roojen P.O. Box 83836 Department of Philosophy Lincoln, NE 68501-3836 University of Nebraska (402) 438-3724 (h) 1010 Oldfather Hall (402) 472-2428 (w) Lincoln, NE 68588-0321 (402) 472-0626 (fax) ---- Start of Message 25206 ---- From: Ken Greenberg Date: 1997-08-30 23:03:00 Subject: a 'bit' of a gloat and a whatzit GGs - (Short form) Found a bunch o' bits at a yard sale for next to nothing, plus a "whatzit gauge" (at least I think it's a gauge) that I could use some help ID'ing. Description below. (Long form) (A brief flashback) - About two weeks ago, I went on a wine-tasting excursion through California Gold Country. Naturally, I needed to fill in the space between wineries with a little tool-hunting. Unlike our GM, who managed to find stuff up there, I pretty much came up empty. This was mostly due to prices. I wandered through an antique emporium the first day and sure enough I smelled iron. Aha - a #78, which I know the value of since I bought one from the MofA last year for $50 with all of its parts. They had one in the same condition but without a fence or a depth stop. At least it had the nicker. But - $165? I don't think so. Typical situation, as it turned out. The only thing I saw that was useful was a small brace with a working ratcheting mechanism, just like one my Dad bought me when I was a kid. $8, but I didn't buy it because I would also need a bunch of bits, and those were in the $3 to $5 each range. In the same place they had a small eggbeater drill with a sticker on it that said "Brazen Bit". Brazen? Not brass, not showing too much boldness. Oh, they meant "Brace and Bit," which of course it wasn't. Un-huh. I guess I should have picked up that brace though... (fast forward to today) - Saw a sign for a block long yard sale starting 8:00 this morning, so I figured I might as well wander over, it being in walking distance. Mostly the usual junk, but at the last place (of course) I spot a transitional and a few saws. Well, better than nothing. I start taking the plane apart and an older gentleman wanders over to talk. Seems these tools belonged to his grandfather, who homesteaded up in the Puget Sound area. He has a house up there and one here (maybe his kids' house) and wanders back and forth every few months. "Oh, I've got more tools over here." In another part of the driveway, he has some tools that were used as part of the whaling industry, and amidst them is a bunch of bits wrapped up in a rubber band marked 50 cents. OK, so now I need that brace. "Oh," he says, "I've got something else you might be interested in." Well, I thought this only happens to other people. Sure, let's take a look. "It's a Stanley gauge." Well, I don't know a thing about it, but he's a nice guy and we're having a good conversation about putting tools back to honorable work. "How much?" "Oh, give me a quarter." Well, sure. "Here, take these three bits, too" These were three smaller bits, marked "S.T.CO" in 1/8, 5/32, and 3/16 sizes. He said he had a bunch more of this stuff up in Washington State, so I gave him my card and told him I would be glad to look at it next time he brought some down. The rubber band came off when I got home to see what I had. These bits are marked GREENLEE with the word Rockford in an arch over the top. There were a 4, 5, 6, 10, three 12's, 13, 14, 15, and 16 in the bunch, and he said he only brought down half of them. (The Whatzit) - This consists of two identical castings with Stanley on them. Each is 2.5 inches long, with a flattened part on the left side. As handed to me, they were inverted with respect to each other and bolted together with two screws, washers, and wing nuts. The inside of each casting has a shark's fin-shaped extension - these face each other when assembled. The third piece is a square rod, 10 inches long and then bent at right angles for another inch or so. The shaft goes between the two castings, presumably oriented with the bent end on the same side as the flat end of the castings. But this is the strange part - If you look at either end of the assembled castings, you can see a square where a square rod might reasonably go. But the shark's fin parts (they are really a bit curved) prevent the shaft from staying square to the ends. They tend to rotate it as you tighten the wing nuts. OK, what is it? Is there some useful role it plays in woodworking? I can't complain about the price, but I'd like to know what I have here, so any help would be appreciated. -Ken Greenberg IT #321 ---- Start of Message 25207 ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1997-08-30 23:04:00 Subject: Drawknife ID'ed Hats off to Mark van Roojen who read between the lines and correctly ID's my new drawknife as a D.R. Barton.... nice knife. Tom ---- Start of Message 25208 ---- From: eric coyle Date: 1997-08-30 23:04:00 Subject: Re: a 'bit' of a gloat and a whatzit > >(The Whatzit) - This consists of two identical castings with Stanley >on them. Each is 2.5 inches long, with a flattened part on the left >side. As handed to me, they were inverted with respect to each other >and bolted together with two screws, washers, and wing nuts. The >inside of each casting has a shark's fin-shaped extension - these face >each other when assembled. The third piece is a square rod, 10 inches >long and then bent at right angles for another inch or so. The shaft >goes between the two castings, presumably oriented with the bent end >on the same side as the flat end of the castings. But this is the >strange part - If you look at either end of the assembled castings, >you can see a square where a square rod might reasonably go. But the >shark's fin parts (they are really a bit curved) prevent the shaft >from staying square to the ends. They tend to rotate it as you tighten >the wing nuts. > >OK, what is it? Is there some useful role it plays in woodworking? I >can't complain about the price, but I'd like to know what I have here, >so any help would be appreciated. > >-Ken Greenberg IT #321 > This story is almost identical to my morning. On a return trip to Manitoba a few months ago, I stopped at all the antique shops (half going, half coming back) and got chatty with a coupla folks. Last week, a guy phones me out of the blue, says he got my name from one of these folks, and as he was moving he had some tools he wanted to sell. This morning I boogied on out to see what the prospects were.... a 45 (no blades), a 78 no fences) , a paramo "plane-master" (hobel-meister if yer German-who makes this thing anyway) #10 that uses replacable blades, a 220 (why I got this I dont know), an archemedian spiral jewellers type drill with funky flywheel wieghts to keep it spinning, a Matheson skew rabbet with adjustable fence (missing blade and wedge, but it had the side cutter) and a brown and sharp caliper. Pricing was similar.... I passed on 3 or 4 modern #4's (got too many already), and a few other things that he had priced just a little too high.... However, yer whatzit sounds like a bit-gauge, with the exception of the square rod, which might have been there to keep the thing intact. It goes on the auger bits for the brace you haven't got yet (what's keepin ya??) to allow drilling to prescribed depths. Eric> ---- Start of Message 25209 ---- From: Stephen York Date: 1997-08-31 00:31:00 Subject: Re: Walter's Price Guide I called the Tool Merchant up on the phone, and ordered one. They were very pleasant. Steve ---- Start of Message 25210 ---- From: Stephen York Date: 1997-08-31 00:46:00 Subject: Re: Wooden plane question I went over to the garage sale in Livermore where the wooden planes were advertised. It turned out that the owner was a retired cabinet maker. The planes were in very good condition, and sharp. He showed me how to adjust them, and threw a piece of oak into his Emmert turtleback vise, and showed me how to use the planes. All in all a enjoyable buying trip. He also pulled out a box with a full set of Bailey planes, but he made very clear they were not for sale. He had a matched set of Stair tread planes, one hollow and one round. I did ont see how I would use them, so I passed. Here is what I got: Smoother made of Lignum Vitae. The iron says 'Ward', and says cast steel. The chip breaker also has the 'Ward' label on it. The wedge and iron and body are in very good shape. No sign of abuse. Beading plane 1/4" bead, approx. No makers name, but says 'No. 103'. There is a '1' and a '2', it might say 1/2, but it is hard to tell. The initials W.L. are present. Some sort of quarter sawn wood with rays. Beading plane, maybe 1/8". Says 'Marten Doscher, New York'. Has a boxwood strip for the edge of the profile. Rounding plane (?). He said it was for rouding off the corners of boards. Has LP Malley stamped in it several places, But I found a small stamp that says Ohio Tool Co. The planes are all sharp right now, but I eventually will need to sharpen them myself. I can figure out the smoother, but where is the best info on sharpening and tuning the beading planes? Where do I find more general info on wooden planes? Thanks in advance, Steve BTW - Thanks to Glenn Nelson and Dave Tardiff for their advice. ---- Start of Message 25211 ---- From: J. Gunterman Date: 1997-08-31 01:47:00 Subject: Re: a 'bit' of a gloat and a whatzit At 4:03 PM -0700 8/30/97, Ken Greenberg wrote: >(The Whatzit) - This consists of two identical castings with Stanley >on them. Each is 2.5 inches long, with a flattened part on the left >side. As handed to me, they were inverted with respect to each other >and bolted together with two screws, washers, and wing nuts. >OK, what is it? Is there some useful role it plays in woodworking? I >can't complain about the price, but I'd like to know what I have here, >so any help would be appreciated. Ohhohh ohhh Mr Kotter...... even _I_ know this one ;-) sice I have one in the bench right now.. just finished using it as a matter of fact What you have there is a depth stop for your Auger Bits. Take that square shaft out and put the Auger Bit in it's place. with the little "feet" down. Tighten down the wing nuts and bore away..... you bit will stop going in when the feet of the stop contact the surface of the wood. bing! L8r, John ---- Start of Message 25212 ---- From: Larry Williams Date: 1997-08-31 01:07:00 Subject: Re: Leaning wedges (long) At 02:48 PM 8/28/97 -0400, Todd Kissam wrote: >I guess I would like to ramble on and attempt to make several >points: >2. We have lost so much in both the areas of how tools were made and > how they were used. Even with all that has been written on the > subject of old tools, most knowledge is still passed on from > mentor to apprentice. > > I consider many of the "Porch" members mentors (on both use and > collecting) and I would like to thank Patrick for his mentoring > and for his efforts to clarify some of the elements of the > "Leaning Wedge" article. As it turns out Patrick was right on at least one point. It's a bad idea to depend on profiles or drawings from printed matter and try to guess information based on what is there. At the SWTCA meet I was able to check a number of very early planes. Didn't find much evidence of leaning wedges on a Jo Fuller or a C. Chelor. But we did find a very strong lean on a Robert Wooding ogee (cuts about a 1" ogee on about 7/8" stock). Tom Witte had it and it's a wonderfully crisp plane. So now I'm thinking leaning wedges may have started a few generations earlier than I thought they did. Larry Williams Eureka Springs, Arkansas who wonders if anyone caught the gloat....don't suppose we'll be using this one ---- Start of Message 25213 ---- From: Newbold Date: 1997-08-31 01:26:00 Subject: Re: OLDTOOLS digest 1900 At 07:01 PM 8/30/97 EDT, Ken Greenberg wrote: snipping the results of a yard sale gloat by a lucky dog. :^) > >Found a bunch o' bits at a yard sale for next to nothing, plus >a "whatzit gauge" (at least I think it's a gauge) that I could >use some help ID'ing. Description below. > .... >(The Whatzit) - This consists of two identical castings with Stanley >on them. Each is 2.5 inches long, with a flattened part on the left >side. As handed to me, they were inverted with respect to each other >and bolted together with two screws, washers, and wing nuts. The >inside of each casting has a shark's fin-shaped extension - these face >each other when assembled. The third piece is a square rod, 10 inches >long and then bent at right angles for another inch or so. The shaft >goes between the two castings, presumably oriented with the bent end >on the same side as the flat end of the castings. But this is the >strange part - If you look at either end of the assembled castings, >you can see a square where a square rod might reasonably go. But the >shark's fin parts (they are really a bit curved) prevent the shaft >from staying square to the ends. They tend to rotate it as you tighten >the wing nuts. > >OK, what is it? Is there some useful role it plays in woodworking? I >can't complain about the price, but I'd like to know what I have here, >so any help would be appreciated. Well, you _could have_ done some ASCII art to make our task a little easier. Hey, if you can do that, you got a lot more talent than I do. But then how would we ever just guess it is a Stanley #49 Bit Guage? If you hadn't said shark fins, I never would have made the leap. It clamps around _round_ bit shanks as a depth stop. The shark fins fit in between the bit spirals. The L-shape ends go towards the point of the bit. Drill until the gauge ends just touch the wood. My #49 has no square rod and the box would not hold one. But a Stanley #47 bit gauge used a rod clamped parallel to the bit as a depth stop, so the owner may have used the square rod in a similar manner. But the #49 does not need the rod. Charlie Newbold Who had to dig his #49 out of the shop to check for fins. Yep, just like on a '57 Chevy. ---- Start of Message 25214 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-31 02:11:00 Subject: Re: Fw: shipping costs In a message dated 97-08-30 21:55:01 EDT, colinml@r... (Colin Montoya-Lewis) writes: << > I'll never use M---------s again, but I may purchase my own franchise :) >> I once needed a simple corr.cardboard box to send one of you guys a level sold on FMM. They sell packaging material, so went to the closest one. When the kid rang up $9 for a modestly sized collapsed box, I walked out. They also had a sign posted complaining about USPS being unfair competition because of no taxation and subsidies -- that kind of added to my ire. At least USPS pays some decent wages, which I bet these places don't. Lloyd Henley ---- Start of Message 25215 ---- From: Larry Williams Date: 1997-08-31 02:26:00 Subject: Re: Spokeshave Book Lodley@a... asked: > Many of you have doubtless received the impressive flyer for the new >Manufactured and Patented Spokeshaves & Similar Tools by Thomas C. Lamond. I >notice it indicates availability expected mid-August. Has anyone actually >seen this book yet? If so, I would appreciate any impressions before sending >off $75 to order. Remembering some of Mr. Lamond's articles in the past, and >the extreme attention to detail, type illustrations and the desire to exhaust >the subject, I anticipate this may set a new standard in old tool >publication. The flyer is very enticing. Just wanted to see if it is out >there in any grubby hands yet. He had them at the STWCA show. Looked like a class act to me, but I only briefly thumbed through it. My money went elsewhere at the show. I'd sure like to have a copy though. Mr. Lamond also had a wonderful display set up there and I spent more time looking at that than the book. I wish you could have made it to the meeting Lloyd. Larry Williams ---- Start of Message 25216 ---- From: Matt Prusik Date: 1997-08-31 03:36:00 Subject: Re: Saw sharpening/class offered Jim: Been rather busy of late and catching up on e-mail over the holiday. FWIW, please keep me and the List posted. I've always wanted to take one of Mario's workshops. But Warwick, NY was just too far from Central NJ. South Jersey should be easier. BTW, got any idea where Mario is looking to buy a house/shop? Matt ---- Start of Message 25217 ---- From: Ezra Herman Date: 1997-08-31 05:32:00 Subject: Oiling plane soles Today, in a fit of disgust with how much friction my #4 was creating, I wiped a tiny bit of oil on the bottom of the plane and wiped it right off again. (Olive oil, to be precise.) I could not believe what a difference it made! It felt like I was running the plane over ball bearings. Is this a reasonable thing to do? Up to this point, I had just used wax on my plane soles. I'm assuming that the amount of oil that gets deposited on the wood is too small to do any harm. And of course, my of the oil gets planed off again. Am I missing something here? And if not, what's the best oil to use- mineral oil? I don't think olive oil is a good long term strategy. Thanks, -Ezra =========================== ezraherman@w... =========================== ---- Start of Message 25218 ---- From: Ezra Herman Date: 1997-08-31 05:32:00 Subject: Plane ID help request Hello- My estimable SWMBO came home from a week upstate with 5 planes that she found for $25 at a yard sale. Two of them have me puzzled: 1) A smoothing plane- 9" from heel to toe, 1 3/4" iron. The only markings on it are "MADE IN USA" between the tote and the frog, and "C55" on the bottom of the frog. It has black japanning. (At least, I think it does. I'm somewhat foggy on the difference between japanning and paint. Would someone care to enlighten me?). The tote and knob are red-lacquered wood of some sort. The knob does not have a raised ring at its bottom. The lateral adjustment lever is bent into a "V" at the top and does not work- I suspect that the iron is a replacement and does not fit the lever properly. The only other oddity is that the lever cap extends very far down the length of the cap iron, ending about 3/8" before the end of the cap iron. Also, the hole in the lever cap is not kidney shaped, but more like a short keyhole shape. Can anyone tell me what this is and if it is any good? The non-working lateral adjustment lever has me worried. Also, the iron is marked "ECLIPSE" at the top. I'm assuming that this is not the original iron, but I'm not sure. These irons any good? 2) A jack plane (Yes! I needed one bad.) 13 7/8" heel to toe, 2" blade. Marked "UNION No. 5" behind the tote. Black japanning (?), no raised ring under knob. The lateral adjustment lever is twisted just before the top to provide a flat surface to push it from side to side. The real oddity hear (for me, at least) is that the depth adjustment knob is turned counterclockwise to extend the iron. The iron is marked "UNION MFG. CO NEW BRITAIN CT." at the top and has a keyhole cutout in it with the top of the keyhole at the top of the blade. The lever cap looks exactly like the one on the plane described above, leading me to think that they are both replacements. Anyway, same questions here as above. Is this a good plane? Any ideas how old it is? Both the planes should clean up pretty well. The jack plane I am excited about, as I've been needing one. I'm a little puzzled about what to do with the small smoother. Is it possible to turn it into a scrub plane? Thanks for any assistance or ideas. -Ezra =========================== ezraherman@w... =========================== ---- Start of Message 25219 ---- From: Barbara Brown Date: 1997-08-30 22:29:00 Subject: Re: Oiling plane soles At 05:32 AM 8/31/97 +0000, Ezra wrote: >Is this a reasonable thing to do? Up to this point, I had just >used wax on my plane soles. I'm assuming that the amount of oil that >gets deposited on the wood is too small to do any harm. And of >course, my of the oil gets planed off again. Ezra, IMO, I'm not sure all the oil does get planed off & what you risk is a contamination that can compromise whatever finish you use. I use Briwax & can plane quite a bit before recoating. Dave ---- Start of Message 25220 ---- From: Matt Prusik Date: 1997-08-31 04:30:00 Subject: Re: Stable Rust? WAS: One man's repaint yadda yadda Shhesh guys ... I read the "Stable Rust" header and though we were going to talk about HORSES! Matt - reading too much tonight, obviously ... ---- Start of Message 25221 ---- From: Matt Prusik Date: 1997-08-31 04:38:00 Subject: Re: One man's broken tote horn is another ... Jason: WRT broken horns, one boatbuilder here in Central NJ that I bought a bunch of planes from several years ago told me that those "tips" were broken off to avoid callouses and other nasty things on your hands and thumbs. Matt ---- Start of Message 25222 ---- From: Matt Prusik Date: 1997-08-31 04:40:00 Subject: Re: Adze lookalike whatsit Beyers Coetzee wrote: Verily, there is no justice in this world. My brother in law, who has enough power tools hanging from the rafters of his garage to turn Norm green with envy, happened on a garage sale the other day where he picked up a cute little bow saw, an adze and something else. The "something else" looks exactly like an adze, except that the cutting edge is sharpened to a point, similar to those lightweight spades that mountaineers use. Any idea what this is and what it was used for? Bit of salt for the wounds. He varnished the lot of them, wood and metal alike, and hung them above his fireplace outside, next to all his other varnished old tools. - Beyers Beyers: If you or another GALOOT were to murder this fellow (hypothetically speaking), being a US lawyer I'd say the defense would be "justifiable homicide" with a tinge of an insanity defense ;--) Matt - obviously joking ... ---- Start of Message 25223 ---- From: Matt Prusik Date: 1997-08-31 04:40:00 Subject: Re: Jimmy Carter, Andy Rooney, et al HeyzaD@a... wrote: > > FWIW, Infospace carries a snailmail address for the former President. No such > luck on Mr. Rooney. How about "cbs.com" or "cbs.org"? Matt ---- Start of Message 25224 ---- From: Kenneth Watkins Date: 1997-08-31 12:08:00 Subject: Re: How to loosen a stuck adjustable throat? On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Mike Weaver wrote: > > At 10:57 PM 8/28/97 -0400, k.johnson@c... wrote: > >Knowledgable Galoots, > > > >I picked up a Stanley 60 1/2 (low-angle block plane) recently for a few > >bucks with a problem. The adjustable throat is stuck, from an unknown > >cause. I suspect it's stuck from sitting idle in someone's barn for many > >years and rusting. > > > >My question is should I attempt to loosen the adjustable throat by > >liberally soaking in penetrating oil and then beating on it with a mallet > >or is there a better way? If I do nothing, the plane is still quite usable > >in it's stuck state. > > > >Thanks for your input. > > Be patient. > > I had a similar plane, and by unscrewing the knob, and *gently* pushing > down on the knob it popped out. > > I'd try to soak it in oil, and gently tap on the knob. You don't want to > beat on it, as you might damage the knob, or the threads. > > But, if you support the casting such that the adjustable plate is > unsupported (and the rest of the plane is supported, it might pop freely > rather easily. > Coming in late as usual, here's my $0.02. Around here the low angles are rare. Luckily, that also means that for bottom feeders like me, most sellers don't differentiate between block planes at all wrt angle, adjustable mouth, cap lever etc. So, 110's, 9.5's, 60.5's and 65's are all usually the same price at a given sale--$5-$10. Unluckily, in the Central OR valley, they all tend to be rusty. My experience is, yes, soak it in your favorite penetrating oil and yes, be patient. But don't be afraid to give it a few judicious gentle wacks. For reasons stated above, I wouldn't beat on the knob. The butt of an old Oral B toothbrush (and for that matter any toothbrush without that clunky space-age look), will fit nicely into the elongated hole of the adjustor. A few sharp gentle wacks on the bristle end will almost certainly free up your sliding sole. You should be able to catch the sole piece in the palm of the hand that supports the plane. If this seems awkward think about a soft landing place before you give it a wack. Once you get it out and derusted, take the advice given to me a while back by someone on the list (Tom Price?)--give the sides of the piece a few even swipes on a fine stone and it'll slide again as it was meant to. Kenneth ---- Start of Message 25225 ---- From: carl muhlhausen Date: 1997-08-31 12:40:00 Subject: Re: Oiling plane soles Ezra Herman wrote: > > Is this a reasonable thing to do? Up to this point, I had just > used wax on my plane soles. I'm assuming that the amount of oil that > gets deposited on the wood is too small to do any harm. And of > course, my of the oil gets planed off again. > > Am I missing something here? And if not, what's the best oil to use- > mineral oil? I don't think olive oil is a good long term strategy. > > Thanks, > > -Ezra > I've been using olive oil as well because I had a bottle of it that didn't taste quite right and used it retemper a plane blade. (It didn't taste right before tempered the iron in it.) I just keep an old sock soaked with the oil handy when I'm planing and wipe the sole over it from time to time. I haven't noticed any effect on the finishes I'm using, though I haven't used any waterbased finishes for a long time. When the olive oil runs out (sometime around the year 2050 at the current rate) I might switch to mineral oil.The oil helps the planing quite a bit. Jim Kingshott in his video demos a wick gizmo he built which is a hollw block of wood with some cloth or yarn stuck in the top. He uses linseed oil, but I remain concerned about the possibility of spontaneous combustion with linseed oil. -- Carl Carl Muhlhausen ledzep@a... (732) 576-3052 Personal Web page at: http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/2790 ---- Start of Message 25226 ---- From: Jim Buchanan Date: 1997-08-31 13:29:00 Subject: Re: Walter's Price Guide tmcclus: > Can someone please post where I can get a copy of this Walter's price > that everyone refers to. I've been to the mall book merchants and the > best they can do is to give me the address of the publisher. for some > reason they can't order it. It's available in the Woodcraft Catalog, very near the end. If I remember correctly, they want $40 for hardback, $30 for paperback, and $10 for an abridged pocket version. amazon.com only lists the $40 hardback version, for the same price. You can request the Woodcraft catalog at http://www.woodcraft.com, as of yet, they have no on-line ordering. I've never ordered from their catalog, but I have purchased from the nearest local store, and have been quite pleased. Jim Buchanan c22jrb@d... jbuchana@e... ================== http://www.earthcorp.com/jbuchana ===================== "The programmer, like the poet, works only slightly removed from pure thought-stuff." -Fredrick P. Brooks ========================================================================== ---- Start of Message 25227 ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1997-08-31 14:42:00 Subject: Re: Gages Brendler, Ralph wrote: > Ah, marking gages! A topic near and dear to my heart... ;-) > > My ideal marking gage has an adjustable point (nice to be > able to remove it for sharpening), and brass wear strips > in the face. > So, if I could choose any gage in the world for marking, > it would be the Stanley #197. > A more mundane second choice would be a Stanley #64-1/2. > On to mortise gages! > So what's my ideal mortising gage? An English pattern mortise > gage (aka "ultimatum" gage). > Lastly, there's a class of marking gage that John missed, but > no user should be without-- the butt gage! > Pesonally, I love the type 3/4 Stanley #95. Lastly? Ralph, what about panel gages? And, oh yeah, slitting gages? 8-) Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 25228 ---- From: Walt Stein Date: 1997-08-31 15:45:00 Subject: Further to: Making canvas tool rolls Since we discussed this a month or so ago, thought I'd fill you all in on my personal experience with making tool rolls of canvas. Just completed two longish ones, each capable of holding 24 to 30 carving chisels each. For those concerned about SWMBO's black-tailed stitching device, here's one conclusion: an ordinary, 'fifties vintage Singer zig-zag was EASILY capable, when armed with a number 16 needle, of handling two layers of medium (ten-pound, I think the salesperson said) canvas plus four layers (as folded) of bias tape. For those interested in the pattern I used...nothing simpler. take a rectangle of canvas, as long as you desire and as wide as the roll plus two times the length of the pockets. Fold the top and bottom pocket flaps over the main section and steam-iron the fold for easy handling later. Bias tape all edges. I made each pocket 2 1/4 inches wide and, of course, alternated top and bottom such that the center of each pocket on the bottom row was aligned with the side edge of a pocket on the top row. Sorry, but I am terrible at ascii art. I can send a simple scanned sketch to anyone who asks , tho'. Now...if I can only find the right size brass eyelets for the string/rope/laces...... Yours, Walt ---- Start of Message 25229 ---- From: J. Gunterman Date: 1997-08-31 18:25:00 Subject: Frenchfit bonus for the kiddies My daughter just discovered a neat "bonus" by product from french fitting a tool case. I laid out all my tools in a efficient usage of space (NOT an easy task I might add!) It litterally took HOURS to get it right. Then I took the board to the NeaderBuddie and cut out on the lines to create the voids for mthe tools to sit in. well I _was_ taking out the peices that were where the voids are now and tossed them into the scrap bin, till Victoria started to pull them right back out and play with them. It was not till she pulled out a chisel shaped peice and a mallet shaped peice and went over to her bench and started to actually try to use them that I had the flash of insight. So I beegan to carefully follow the lines to preserve the "waste" peices as close to thier real shapes and now Victoria has a complete set of wooden tools that match my real ones. Way cool! L8r, John ---- Start of Message 25230 ---- From: Larry Williams Date: 1997-08-31 17:43:00 Subject: Re: Walter's Price Guide Jim Buchanan wrote: >tmcclus: >> Can someone please post where I can get a copy of this Walter's price >> that everyone refers to. I've been to the mall book merchants and the >> best they can do is to give me the address of the publisher. for some >> reason they can't order it. > >It's available in the Woodcraft Catalog, very near the end. If I >remember correctly, they want $40 for hardback, $30 for paperback, and >$10 for an abridged pocket version. > Better yet, order directly from Walter himself. John and Randa, his wife, lurk here and may have contacted you directly. Their e-mail address is: toolmerchant@s... (John and Randa Walter) Nice folks and we've all benefited from their efforts. Larry Williams ---- Start of Message 25231 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-31 13:24:00 Subject: Re: Plane ID help request > 1) A smoothing plane- 9" from heel to toe, 1 3/4" iron. The only > markings on it are "MADE IN USA" between the tote and the frog, and > "C55" on the bottom of the frog. It has black japanning. (At least, > I think it does. I'm somewhat foggy on the difference between > japanning and paint. Would someone care to enlighten me?). Japanning is an asphalt based baked on enamel. The tote > and knob are red-lacquered wood of some sort. The knob does not have > a raised ring at its bottom. The lateral adjustment lever is bent > into a "V" at the top and does not work- I suspect that the iron is a > replacement and does not fit the lever properly. The only other > oddity is that the lever cap extends very far down the length of the > cap iron, ending about 3/8" before the end of the cap iron. Also, > the hole in the lever cap is not kidney shaped, but more like a short > keyhole shape. most used to be. Only newer stanleys and such have the kidney shape. > > Can anyone tell me what this is and if it is any good? The > non-working lateral adjustment lever has me worried. If it's a nice plane that you want- they had planes long before lateral adjust ment levers. Just tap on the blade. I think it's a house brand. Seen 'em around but didn't really call "take me" where I could hear and act upon it. Also, the iron > is marked "ECLIPSE" at the top. I'm assuming that this is not the > original iron, but I'm not sure. These irons any good? If it keeps an edge, it's good :) Quality control varied. Some might be a real nice hard one, others not. Test it and see. Worst case for a soft one is that you will have to sharpen it a bit more often. > > 2) A jack plane (Yes! I needed one bad.) 13 7/8" heel to toe, 2" > blade. Marked "UNION No. 5" behind the tote. Black japanning (?), no > raised ring under knob. The lateral adjustment lever is twisted just > before the top to provide a flat surface to push it from side to > side. The real oddity hear (for me, at least) is that the depth > adjustment knob is turned counterclockwise to extend the iron. The > iron is marked "UNION MFG. CO NEW BRITAIN CT." at the top and has a > keyhole cutout in it with the top of the keyhole at the top of the > blade. The lever cap looks exactly like the one on the plane > described above, leading me to think that they are both replacements. > Lever cap would be appropriate. Unions are good planes. Like the commercial says, (Insert stanley) I liked it so much I bought the company. > Anyway, same questions here as above. Is this a good plane? Any > ideas how old it is? > Think they went out around turn of century. > Both the planes should clean up pretty well. The jack plane I am > excited about, as I've been needing one. I'm a little puzzled about > what to do with the small smoother. Is it possible to turn it into a > scrub plane? > Don't bother. Either wait for a scrub, get a wooden jack(personal choice), or if you get tired of waiting make one :). You can however it you like, keep it set a bit rank and think of it as a jack for smaller pieces. You can put a radius on it to make it a bit more aggressive but the thinner iron and such will be dissapointing as a scrub. > Thanks for any assistance or ideas. Good luck. David ---- Start of Message 25232 ---- From: Ken Greenberg Date: 1997-08-31 19:32:00 Subject: Thanks for bit gauge ID GGs- Thanks for the replies from everyone. I set the rod aside and screwed this thing onto one of the bits. Sure enough, almost as if it was made to work like this... I was confused because it came with the rod stuck through the hole, but it probably was there just to help the former owner find it more easily (it is pretty small). The patina on all the pieces is much the same, so they certainly looked like they belonged together. As Charlie Newbold pointed out: > My #49 has no square rod and the box would not hold one. But a Stanley #47 > bit gauge used a rod clamped parallel to the bit as a depth stop, so the > owner may have used the square rod in a similar manner. But the #49 does > not need the rod. So, maybe the owner had both of these, and this is the rod from a #47. BTW, I took some 0000 steel wool this morning and cleaned off a small area inside the casting where I thought I had seen a stamp. Sure, enough, both pieces are stamped 575. I know this would have been useful information to include when posting a whatzit, but I guess I was just too excited at actually finding something at a yard sale to do a thorough job of investigation. -Ken ---- Start of Message 25233 ---- From: Ted Johnson Date: 1997-08-31 20:10:00 Subject: Machinist Tool Chest Q'aire I've been researching and collecting data on old, wood, Machinist Tool Chests & Cases for over a year now. I've collected data on alot of different sizes and styles from 17 different manufacturers, dating back to the late 1800's. If you own one of these and would like to find out what company manufactured it or what it's style or model number is, please contact me so I can e-mail my Questionnaire to you. Once filled out and returned you will be helping us out by providing the info. & I can help you out by providing an i.d. Thanks to all of you who have already done so. Have a good one. Ted Johnson, Camano Island, WA ---- Start of Message 25234 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-31 20:15:00 Subject: Stanley Handle & Knob Construction I've had a really busy month and got way behind on the list. This week I read digests 1822 through 1901!!!!!! Boy, are my eyes tired, and is my brain even tireder. I've particlulary enjoyed the leaning wedge discussion and hope to spend some time in thought on the subject sometime. One subject to which I'd like to offer a theory relates to the design of the brass nut & steel rod that holds the handle and knob on a Bailey plane. Rob Kempenski writes: >> I still don't fully appreciate Stanley's reasons for using those funky brass >> screw-nuts and threaded post to secure totes and knobs. I'd like to see >> this discussed. My theory is that having both ends of the rod threaded allowed a greater range of adjustment than threads in the casting boss would allow to accomodate variations in handle height, seasonal wood movement in the handle or knob, etc. The surface of the brass nut which bears on the wood is flat, which as opposed to a tapered screw head intended for conventional countersinking, would apply a downward pressure only, rather than any sideward force which might tend to split the wood. Making the top nut of brass as opposed to steel or some other material was probably either a cosmetic or ease-of-machining issue, or both. I can't find any reference to this feature in the list of Stanley plane patents in Walter. Looking forward to someone shooting this theory full of holes so I can be fully enlightened on the subject! Glad to be back, Don Boyer > ---- Start of Message 25235 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-31 20:16:00 Subject: Skew Angle for 46 Cutters Couple of weeks back, Thomas McCluskey inquired about the proper skew angle of cutters for the Stanley 46 plane, to which Patrick Leach replied: >> 25 degrees +/- an angstrom or two. There are several angles involved on a 46, and I wasn't exactly sure which one Thomas was asking about, so I decided to pull out a couple of 46's and my trusty Starrett adjustable protractor to see for myself. Having made cutters for 46's, I'd dont this before, but I couldn't find my notes. Here's what I measure: The skew of the blade: assuming this means the angle at which the blade sits in the plane referenced to the side of the plane which is parallel to the direction the plane moves in use, this angle is 60 degrees, or 30 degrees deviation from the 90 degrees at which most plane blades rest referenced to the plane side. The pitch of the blade, or the angle at which it sits in the plane referenced to horizontal, is 61 degrees (as opposed to 45 degrees which is common for bench planes and molding planes). Most plane blades have a cutting edge which is 90 degrees to the edges of the blade. On a 46, the cutter edge angle is 71 degrees/109 degrees (depending on which edge you measure from). The long edge of the blade is beveled to 110 degrees from the cutting face of the blade to provide the necessary relief. The short edge of the blade is beveled to 70 degrees from the cutting face to provide support for the cutting edge but with relief also. Note that if the blade were mounted in the plane square instead of skewed, the back of this edge would actually protrude further to the left than the cutting edge. I haven't been able to figure out which angle Patrick measured at 25 degrees. There is very slight deviation between my c. 1880's 46 and my c. 1920 model. I'm sure my terminology and descriptions are confusing, but I look forward to further discussion. Don Boyer ---- Start of Message 25236 ---- From: Don Baker Date: 1997-08-31 20:22:00 Subject: Re: My new Bow Saw John, I too am very impressed by my Johnson bow saw. I was more than a little peeved at the four month plus wait because he had given me the impression on the phone that it would be more like several weeks. Interestingly, I have #116 and I got it two or more months ago. This guy definitely doesn't do this for a living. It is clear from the quality that he does it for love and couldn't begin to recover his labor and materials from the C note. I agree that it is worth the wait. Don Baker Flagstaff, AZ ---- Start of Message 25237 ---- From: John Hunt Date: 1997-08-31 21:53:00 Subject: Re: Stanley Handle & Knob Construction Well, it seems incredibly slow on the list so I will pad it a little withmy ignorant, uneducated guesses. On Sun, 31 Aug 1997 Dnbyr@a... wrote: > My theory is that having both ends of the rod threaded allowed a greater > range of adjustment than threads in the casting boss would allow to > accomodate variations in handle height, seasonal wood movement in the handle > or knob, etc. My theory is that is is simply a machining issue. The combinationn of the rod and bass nut was simply the easiest way to make the part at that time. The part needed some strength, so casting a blank from cast iron from which to machine the part wouldn't work. And machining it down from 7/16" bar stock was simply too wasteful of material. So that had the nut machined from 7/16" bar stock, brass because it was easier to tap and added a touch of class. The threaded rod was made out of steel rod with the thread rolled into it. So my argument is that is was simply the cheapest, easiest way to do the job at the time. Now to change the subject slightly, I'd like to hear about what kind of automation they had for these types of jobs. -John- > Looking forward to someone shooting this theory full of holes so I can be > fully enlightened on the subject! > > Glad to be back, > > Don Boyer ---- Start of Message 25238 ---- From: roeder/kraft Date: 1997-09-01 05:48:00 Subject: Hawkeye embossed ax Can anyone provide any information on the embossed ax that I picked up this weekend? It's a single bit and embossed with the head of what appears to be a member of the finch family (the artist was no Audubon). The handle is interesting since it appears to have been finished in a manner similar to all that blonde oak furniture popular in the 1950's and has a button and bead turned on the end. A circle surrounds the bird's head and contains the text "Hawkeye" and "B.O.E" Inside the circle is the text "& S P Co." I can't tell if the firm is the Hawkeye and SP Co. or if there were multiple companies involved (such as Hawkeye, B.O.E., and SP Co.) I'd appreciate any help anyone could give me as to manufacturer, place of manufacture, date, etc. There may be an Iowa connection. The axe was purchased in Iowa -- the Hawkeye State. The goldfinch is the state bird. Thanks, Randy Roeder Repaint houses, not old tools. ---- Start of Message 25239 ---- From: Andrew Tune Date: 1997-08-31 23:43:00 Subject: Sawset guru questions GGs: This may be pointless this close to FMM... but I have a question for a sawset guru (or at least someone who's successfully used a Stanley #42). Bought one on the weekend. There are two adjustment screws: one for moving the anvil up and down and one for moving it in and out. Q1. Is the one which moves it in and out really an adjustment facility or is it just a binary thing (i.e. loosen before adjusting the up-down mechanism and then tighten to hold it in place)? Q2. If it's really an adjustment thing, what holds the anvil in tension when it's not tightened fully? What I mean is this: when the screw is loosened off, the anvil wobbles around (sufficiently at times to disengage it from the up-down mechanism!). Is there meant to be a spring to hold it in place? Q3. Looked at from below it looks as if there should be some sort of depth-adjustment mechanism apart from the above-mentioned two mechanisms for adjusting the position of the anvil. Is this correct? How does it work? Thanks, Andrew. -- Andrew Tune Technix Consulting Group Andrew.Tune@t... Level 5, 695 Burke Rd Phone: +61 3 9882 2333 Camberwell, 3124 Fax: +61 3 9882 4799 URL: http://www.technix.com.au "What if there were no hypothetical situations?" ---- Start of Message 25240 ---- From: Steven Thomas Date: 1997-08-31 23:52:00 Subject: WTB: Plane Knob Screw and Nut To anyone who can help, I am looking for a screw and nut to fit a high knob #8 Stanley (type 15). I also need a similar screw and nut to fit a #386 jointer fence. The screw thread is the same a a Stanley bench plane (length 2.1" and dia .215"). The nut is also the same as a bench plane. Ideally this nut should be nickelled, but brass will do the same job. Thanks Steven _____________________________________________ Dr Steven Thomas PhD Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research Level 4, Block E, Monash Medical Centre Clayton, Victoria 3168. AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 3 9550 4380 Fax: +61 3 9550 6125 email: Steven.Thomas@m... _____________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 25241 ---- From: Steven Thomas Date: 1997-08-31 23:53:00 Subject: WTB: Lateral adjust lever Dear GALOOTS, I need a lateral adjust lever (2 piece construction) to suit a type 15 Stanley #8. Thanks Steven _____________________________________________ Dr Steven Thomas PhD Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research Level 4, Block E, Monash Medical Centre Clayton, Victoria 3168. AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 3 9550 4380 Fax: +61 3 9550 6125 email: Steven.Thomas@m... _____________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 25242 ---- From: Steven Thomas Date: 1997-09-01 00:00:00 Subject: WTB: Thumbscrews Dear Galoots, I need a couple of thumbscrews for 2 #66 beading planes that I have. I need: 1x blade clamping screw and 1x fence clamping screw These appear to have different threads (the 2 #66s are different vintages). The beading planes are both nickelled, and so are the screws. the screws have oval shaped heads, that are thinned along their long axes see http://peta.ee.cornell.edu/~jay/ww/planes/bng/stanley_66.html Similar screws may also be found on other Stanley planes. Thanks Steven _____________________________________________ Dr Steven Thomas PhD Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research Level 4, Block E, Monash Medical Centre Clayton, Victoria 3168. AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 3 9550 4380 Fax: +61 3 9550 6125 email: Steven.Thomas@m... _____________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 25243 ---- From: Date: 1997-09-01 00:31:00 Subject: Fox & Washburn? Galoots! Yesterday I picked up a Fox & Washburn toted match plane. I'd be very appreciative of any info. on this maker. It's a nice plane that has the distinction of being the first wooden plane I've bought that worked reasonably well without significant tuning (OK, I've only bought three so far...). There's another thing that's got me curious, and dissapointed. It is the tongue cutting half of the pair. The groove cutter is long gone, but I bought it thinking my plow plane could fill in. Well, I get it home and measure the gap and it is 0.275 inches. Of course, my plow plane iron is 0.25 inches. Any idea why the iron would have that gap? It does not appear to have been altered. Thanks. Paul Ebert ---- Start of Message 25244 ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 1997-09-01 01:46:00 Subject: Re: Oiling plane soles I remember reading about a patented plane that had an oil reservoir that slowly leaked oil onto the sole. It is probably in one of Roger Smiths books, but I dont have the time to look it up now. Trevor ---- Start of Message 25245 ---- From: Date: 1997-09-01 02:38:00 Subject: Re: Stanley Handle & Knob Construction In a message dated 97-08-31 22:11:55 EDT, Dnbyr@a... writes: << The surface of the brass nut which bears on the wood is flat, which as opposed to a tapered screw head intended for conventional countersinking, would apply a downward pressure only, rather than any sideward force which might tend to split the wood. >> Then why use the countersunk tapered type screw on, e.g., the No. 62 and on transitionals (I think that's right, at least as to totes)? Lloyd Henley ---- Start of Message 25246 ---- From: Thomas E. McCluskey Date: 1997-08-31 22:45:00 Subject: Re: Skew Angle for 46 Cutters On Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:16:19 -0400 (EDT) Dnbyr@a... writes: >Couple of weeks back, Thomas McCluskey inquired about the proper skew >angle >of cutters for the Stanley 46 plane, to which Patrick Leach replied: > >>> 25 degrees +/- an angstrom or two. > >snip all the measuring stuff. Thanks for the response Chock it up to newbie lack of vocabulary. I reasoned that the angle/angles that the cutter clamps into the plane is fixed. ( I can't change it) The only angles I control as someone who wants to sharpen his blades accurately, is the bevel angle (the primary angle of the cutting edge in relation to the flat part of the blade) and the skew angle (the angle of the the cutting edge in relation to the sides.) On a typical plane blade the "standard" bevel is 25 degrees. The "standard" skew is 90 degrees ( or maybe 0 degrees) (BTW I am trying to indicate my understanding whether correct or incorrect by use of parentheses) Based on the input from the group, the skew on the #46 cutter is 68 to 71 degrees. BTW what was the variance on your 1880s vs. 1920s?. The reason I ask is my plane is from the 20s and the cutters wers purchased separately and are older. Anyone have good definitions for the various blade angles we've discussed? (Newbie has inquiring mind and needs to know to prevent future faux pas.) ---- Start of Message 25247 ---- From: Date: 1997-09-01 02:48:00 Subject: Re: Walter's Price Guide In a message dated 97-08-31 13:44:14 EDT, williams@i... writes: > > Better yet, order directly from Walter himself. John and Randa, his wife, > lurk here and may have contacted you directly. Their e-mail address is: > > toolmerchant@s... (John and Randa Walter) > Yup, and you can also get their Pocket Price Guide for another $10. It's quit handy when you don't want to haul the big book around. You can reach The Tool Merchant at 614-373-9973 Bill Bohl ---- Start of Message 25248 ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1997-09-01 04:30:00 Subject: Re: Fox & Washburn? PaulEbert@a... queried: > Yesterday I picked up a Fox & Washburn toted match plane. I'd be very > appreciative of any info. on this maker. According to Pollak's _Guide ..._: "Probably Luther Fox and William Lyman Washburn, who operated 1835-36" Amherst, Mass. > There's another thing that's got me curious, and dissapointed. It is the > tongue cutting half of the pair. The groove cutter is long gone, but I > bought it thinking my plow plane could fill in. Well, I get it home and > measure the gap and it is 0.275 inches. Of course, my plow plane iron is > 0.25 inches. Any idea why the iron would have that gap? My guess is that this pair was intended for use on 13/16" or 7/8" material. Are there any fraction markings on the plane stocks? If present, these would provide a more definite answer. Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 25249 ---- From: John Levin Date: 1997-09-01 03:48:00 Subject: Re: Destroying Auger bits At 05:28 PM 8/16/97 +0100, Jeff Gorman wrote: >I'd better not repeat my posting as to how useful they [old brutalized brace >bits] are, with the square tang removed and in a Black & Decker drill, for >dealing with badly ventilated and badly-drained lawns. Mind you, they can give >your wrist quite a kick when they hit a stone. Hmmm...I suppose I'd better not mention that if you cut off the bottom inch and weld on an old Stanley #7c, you've got a hellacious paint mixer for your drill press. WARNING: Wear old clothes when doing this. Works best on 5 gallon paint cans. "Stanley--helps you do things right!" ---- Start of Message 25250 ---- From: Gil Chesbro Date: 1997-08-28 05:04:00 Subject: FS: Stanley Planes Standard Oldtools Terms. Each Stanley plane has been very lightly cleaned (dust and grime removed but not the patina) except where noted. #5 Jack plane, Type 10: $25 Broken but repairable tote, though the horn is gone forever. Good knob. 80% japanning. #5 Jack plane, Type 11, corrugated: $48 Last of the low knobs (the 12's had high knobs). Sweetheart iron. 60% japanning. A beautiful plane. #5 Jack plane, Type 17: $33 Wartime model, with thicker, heavier body than found in other types. Stained hardwood knob and tote. Large brass depth adjustment nut. With complete frog adjuster. 70% japanning. "VW" filed into left side of body, but I doubt that manufacturer ever owned it. ;-) #6 Fore plane, Type 16: $40 Beautiful, intact rosewood high knob & tote. 90% japanning. Nickel-plated lever cap, correct for this type. Clean, but needs sharpening and tuning. #7 Jointer plane, Type 8 (1899-1902): $60 Low rosewood knob and tote. 80% japanning. Clean, but needs sharpening and tuning. And at this price, it will probably be sold by the time you respond #6 Fore plane, Type 13: $5 No, that's not a typo. I want five dollars for it. Knob (and its hardware) gone; tote cracked and horn missing; bent lateral adjuster; used-up iron with mushroomed top; little japanning; some pitting. Good frog and lever cap. -Gil ---- Start of Message 25251 ---- From: Gary P. Paine Date: 1997-09-01 07:40:00 Subject: FS Marking Gages, Squares, Shaves Many of these are left from last FMM and carry reduced prices because they did not sell. New items are marked with an (*). Standard terms apply, but let me know if you are not in North America. Marking Gages, Squares, and Bevels G-1 Lot of 6 beech gages in as found condition in uncleaned condition, all showing wear, one has added pencil hole, one a hanging staple in the end. Only one has brass wear strips on it. All are useable. $13 for the lot. G-2 Stanley bevel gages--nickel plated iron. Two available, one has 7-14-08 patent date on casting, notched logo on the other side. The other has Stanley in oval pattern. Former is as found and somewhat rusty. The other is cleaned. Both are missing about half of their nickel plating. Your choice for $ 4.50. G-3 Stanley 88 clapboard marker. Very good condition. $9. G-4 Stanley no. 18 japanned bevel gage. Retains most of original bluing on blade, japan is slightly worn from cleaning in stipple around notched logos. $7.50. G-5 Stanley brass bound rosewood adjustable bevel. Blade has Stanley Pat 3-16-97. Small dimples on end of rosewood handle but no chips. Clean and good looking. $18. G-6 Brass bound rosewood handled square. As found condition, some rust blistering and needs cleaning and one screw in brass edge. Heavy brass plate at the top defines the 45 degree miter. Unmarked as far as I can see. $4. G-7 Another apparently unmarked square, rosewood handle with brass wear surface. Blade kept with rivets through three diamond plates on each side of handle. There is a small split in rosewood from one of the rivets to the top on one side of the handle. Good- to good condition. $4.50. G-8 (*) Stanley Sweetheart #61 marking gage in very good condition. $9 Shaves and Scrapers S1 Stanley #67 removable handle spoke shave. Good rosewood handles, but a split in one of the ferrules. No fence and only the round bottom. Lots of blade left and all the nickel looks good. $27. S2 Kunz no. 80 cabinet scraper. Black paint (japan?) looks new Fine condition. $16. S6 Only mark seems to be an 8 for 8 inch blade marked as far as I can tell on this older sway back drawknife. Needs cleaning but still sharp. Some slight peening to back of blade where someone used a mallet or hammer on it. Old shape handles with full cup washers show dents but no cracks. Lots of use left. $13. ---- Start of Message 25252 ---- From: Gary P. Paine Date: 1997-09-01 07:40:00 Subject: FS Precision and Miscellaneous Many of these are left from last FMM and carry reduced prices because they did not sell. New items are marked with an (*). Standard terms apply, but let me know if you are not in North America. Miscellaneous Stuff S1 Slater’s tool. I think I heard it called a Bick Iron..? T shaped steel 18 in.x 8 1/2 in. Short end pointed. I believe this is driven into the wood and used as an anvil to break slate on. Original blue painted finish about 55% intact. No maker mark. $8.50 S2 Pliers style saw set Morrils Pat. No 30572. Clean and functional, but missing a lot of original nickel plating. $4.50. S3 Scissors Keen Kutter. Measures 9 inches overall with 4 inch blade length. Clean and sharp 50% Japanning on handle $7.50. S4 Ford ratcheting wrench measuring 13/16 across the hex flats marked in script Ford Z-2034. Cannot imagine when Ford issued these, but I’ve lost interest. Clean and good. $6.50. S5 Some kind of riviting or stapling tool. Pliers shape, 10 in. long marked Elliot-Heaton-Penn Corp. Boston Mass. Twin slotted spring loaded prongs bear down on the anvil surface. Looks like they held some kind of staple. The Japan is 95%. $5. S6 (*) Diston D8 rip saw, 5 1/2 point. Cherry handle with thumb hole. Has an old glue repair at the bottom of the handle, but was nicely done. Needs a light cleaning. $7 S7(*) Wards Master Quality hand crank grinder. Has a 10:1 ratio. It is very smooth operating, but is very dirty and needs a good cleaning. It is missing the bent sheet metal tool rest, but one would be easily fabricated. $15 S8(*) Socket 1 inch Corner Chisel. Cannot read the makers name. The handle needs replaced, as it is broken off at the socked. Some mild mushrooming at the top of the socket shows it was used that way a bit. Needs cleaning, but with a bit of work cleaning, sharpening, and replacing the handle, this chisel has a lot of work left. $10. S10 Natural quarried stone in craftsman box. Stone is 9 1/4 x 2 1/2 inches almost 1 1/2 thick. Bottom of stone is rough as quarried and shows the natural color which is kind of yellowish white. Stone slightly dished at center and could use flattening. Box is walnut. $16. S11 Taylor Tenon Machine Company, Rockford, Illinois tenon machine. Nickel plated hand held tenon maker is hand cranked, has two cutters and will make tenons on round stock up to 9/16 diameter. Nickel is worn to maybe 70%, wood knob has no dings, and it is in excellent working order. Good+ $45. Books BB1 Paperback Museum of early American Tools by Eric Sloane. 1973 printing of 1964 copyright. Good condition. $4.50. BB3 What to Make , Popular Mechanics Press 1948. Volume 9. Cover worn, pages a bit yellow. Interesting reading. $3. BB4 What to Make , Popular Mechanics Press 1950. Volume 11. Very good condition. Different content than above. $3. Precision Tools M1 Precision adjustable square with center and protractor head. Presumably Starrett, but cannot find their name. It looks like their 433 series. Pat. Aug. 7, 1883 and 672 on protractor head. Very small initials EWP on protractor head. Japan intact, no rust pits or stains. Clean and Very Good. $55. M2 Lufkin Rule Co. Saginaw Planer Gage. Tall rod. Previous owner name engraved on one side, otherwise very good condition. $37. M3 Brown & Sharp #751 Vee block and cast iron clamp. Owners name engraved on recess in bottom. $19. M4 Lufkin Rule Co. Radius Gage set in simulated leather pouch. Some rust stains and light pits on some of the 24 pieces in this set of inside and outside radius templates from 1/32 to 1/2 inch. $17. M5 Craftsman wiggler set. 4 piece set in plastic pouch. Tool good, pouch poor. $8.50. M6 Brown and Sharp 621 Surface Gage in very good condition except scribe is a replacement. $ 20. M7 3 x 6 inch sin plate by Ken Goltry, Feb 16, 1957. Very precisely made and in very good condition. $45. M8 Pair of V blocks by Marv Miller. 2 1/4 inch cube. with clamps. Very good condition. $32. M10 J.T. Slocomb Co. Providence R.I. 3-4 inch mics. With adjustment wrench. Japan is 80%. No rust stains. $18. M14 Lufkin Rule 6 inch dividers. Needs light cleaning. Good+ $5.50. M15 L.S.Starrett Co. 4 inch inside calipers. Fine $5.50. M16 Brown & Sharp thread gage # 630. Just the thing to find out just how non-standard Stanley screws are. $6.50. M17 Starrett Telescoping Gages---several each up to 3 1/2 inches $4 each or $12 for 4. M18 Ideal Double Scale Indicator, Ideal Tool Co. Rochester N.Y. In the box with original $7.00 price. Box split. Indicator Good+. $10. M19 Stanley 12 inch machinist level. No. 36 G with heavy rib inside casting (1947 to 1949) Fine condition.$45 M20 The L.SS. Co. Athol, Mass. 9 inch machinist level in Good+ condition. $40. ---- Start of Message 25253 ---- From: Patrick Leach Date: 1997-09-01 03:48:00 Subject: FS: Stuff good cheap... Not a lot of stuff this time, but it's all fresh meat. Hope you find some tasty morsels. Don't forget killer kool layout knifes, no home is complete with- out one, at $45.00ppd. Thanks for shopping. STANLEY ******* ST1 #151M spokeshave; the two adjusting nuts that engage the blade are favored by many for setting the tool; in near new condition; made of maleable iron so it can withstand whatever mistreatment you give it. $45.00 ST2 #2 smoothing plane; Type 11, all parts original and proper on this ca. WWI plane; japanning near 100%; a very nice example, with only real apology being a tiny hairline at the base of the rosewood knob. $235.00 ST3 Set of cutters for a #50 in original wooden box with no cover; these are for the earlier models of the plane without the cutter adjustment lever; very light sur- face rust will clean in no time; harder to find than the plane itself. $60.00 ST4 #77 doweling machine; 8 of the 9 cutters heads present (missing the 1/4"); machine is in fine shape ready to for you to put square pegs through a round hole; ori- ginal instructions. $950.00 ST5 #70 box scraper; a mundane tool in extraordinary con- dition, this thing has the full decal (used during the sweetheart era, and immediately after) along with the original grease pencil price of $2.50 remaining on its maple handle; this thing was NEVER used, as it's new old stock from a hardware store that closed its doors long ago; some surface rust on sole from sitting idle, but will clean easily; if you collect Stanley, you'll go a long time before you find a cleaner one. $65.00 ST6 #816 Victor Engineer's zig-zag folding rule, unusual variant, graduated in 10th's and 100th's; red figures on white background make this more colorful than usual; in fine shape; scarce rule. $55.00 ST7 #39 3/4 dado plane; sweetheart logo on lever cap screw; japanning 95%, nickel plating the same; all parts original and proper; harder to find size in better than typical condition. $185.00 ST8 #278 low angle fillister; removable nose piece con- verts this to a bull nose; all parts original and proper, including usually long-gone washer on depth stop; patent date on blade, sweetheart logo on lever cap screw; japanning 75%. $285.00 ST9 #140 skew rabbet with removable side plate; Type 1; this thing is a solid 9.99 on the 1-10 scale; never need to upgrade. $225.00 ST10 #38 1/2 4" level with sweetheart mark; japanning 100% a small amount of tarnish on top plate, but screws retain most of their original bluing; a nice example for collecting or using. $45.00 ST11 #51/#52 shoot board and plane; all parts original and proper, near factory new condition; hard to find in this shape; installment payments doable. $1650.00 ST12 #3 smoother; type 11 with sweetheart blade; in u-clean condition, with a small hang-hole at toe; parts alone make this a good buy. $25.00 ST13 #77 rosewood morticing gauge with 1872 patent date stamped on fence; in better than usual condition, and ready for more morticing than you'll ever give it, this is the earlier model with the 1.75" brass wear plate at the pins. $60.00 ST14 #85 1/2 rosewood panel gauge; all parts original and proper, this thing is in near new condition; best I've had in awhile. $110.00 ST15 #88 clapboard marker; handy tool if you're residing your cave; rusty, but should clean ok, and certainly usable as is. $20.00 ST16 #1 Winterbottom's try and mitre square, 6" blade; tool is overall clean, with blade a bit dirty; type 1. $35.00 ST17 #2 improved try square, 4" blade; type 1; in fine overall condition, with near 100% japanning. $35.00 ST18 #2 cutter; new old stock, never used, notched logo. $22.50 ST19 #1 Winterbottom's try and mitre square, scarce 4" model; nickel plated with sweetheart logo; nickel plating 95%, and scuffed in spots, but overall nice. $45.00 ST20 #112 scraper; much nicer than typical example, with near full length original Stanley marked blade; japanning nearly 100%, wood perfect, nice even patina to the ex- terior. $225.00 ST21 #95 butt gauge (for door mortices, not for steatopygia) in its original box; nickel plating 100%. $27.50 ST22 #12 1/2 scraper, in u-clean condition; everything is there, but blade clamping screw is repaired; sole is uneven, but doesn't have screws poking through; not pretty, but those who are thrifty usually don't care; extremely rare at this price. $32.50 ST23 #3 smoother; type 13 sweetheart model, with most of decal present on tote; all parts original and proper; with quick cleaning, plane will be much better than typical condition, with 95% japanning. $60.00 ST24 #710 bench vise in the orange and black combination; extra clean condition, and a real working tool. $55.00 ST25 #104 steel bottom smoothing plane; in u-clean condi- tion; horn of tote MIA; type 1, with patent date stamped in side; plane will clean to be nice; a bar- gain. $95.00 ST26 #70 cutting gauge in mahogany (looks applewood to me, but the bible says mahogany on the earlier types); not stamped, but is marked on fence with grease pen- cil "#70"; tool is in extra succulent condition. $85.00 ST27 14 cutters for a late model #50 (one with cutter adjustment mechanism); 1/2" has been reground to a quarter round; light rust will clean up in no time. $50.00 ST28 #32 1/2 1' 4-fold brass bound rule with caliper; rule has seen use, and is somewhat dirty, but it's still 100% usable. $25.00 ST29 #48 match plane; nickel plated model with floral casting on handle; nickel plating 95%, both original cutters; ready for matching. $90.00 ST30 #59 doweling jig in original orange box; complete and in new condition, with instructions. $37.50 ST31 #45 combination plane in original wooden box (label is missing); "S" casting, type 7B; all parts original and proper; cutters in original wooden box, with scuffed green label; nickel plating 95%; clean example, ready for use. $175.00 ST32 #53 adjustable mouth spokeshave; near factory new, with V-logo on cutter; all original; nice. $40.00 ST33 #80 scraper; sweetheart mark on tool and original blade; decal remnants on tool; near factory new after quick cleaning. $40.00 ST34 #78 rabbet plane; V-logo on cutter dates this to ca. WWI; japanning 95%; very light surface rust will clean easily, making this in much better condition than typical. $60.00 ST35 #10 jack rabbet; in u-clean condition, with sheared tote; low knob model with later notched logo cutter; it's been raining #10's in this condition around here lately. $90.00 WOODEN PLANES ****** ****** WP1 P.BROOKS slide arm plough plane; plane is in overall fine condition, with a dry finish; thumbscrews have stripped; here's your chance to be a clever galoot and carry out an effective repair. $45.00 WP2 Bodman&Hussey 1/2" single boxed bead; overall factory new condition; small burn mark from an old cigarette butt burn (very small) on fence. $30.00 WP3 S&H Hills/Amherst 3/8" quirked ogee; scarce mark on a nice using plane; body of wedge split and needs a quick gluing. $65.00 WP4 J.Kellogg/Amherst 3/16" single boxed bead; extra crispy clean, with worm hole from when blank was seasoning at top of plane; far better than typical. $27.50 WP5 J.Kellogg/Amherst 2/8" full boxed bead; factory new. $30.00 WP6 J.Kellogg/Amherst 3/8" dado; good and straight, plane is in succulent condition; wedge appears to be a re- placement (patina is lighter), but it's as good as the original; internal screwed depth stop. $55.00 WP7 Same as WP6, but 1/2". $55.00 MISCELLANEOUS ************* MI1 The _Art of Saw-Filing_ by Holly; first published in 1864, this 3rd volume of 1868 is still timeless in the information within its covers; 56 pages of saw minutiae, including the sharpening of surgeon's saws; cover perfect, some very minor foxing. $50.00 MI2 28" overall length, 16" cutting length, mast shave by L.&I.J.White; in fab condition, this thing is a must have for folks who dig big wood. $85.00 MI3 32" metallic zig-zag rule, measure 2.5" long when closed, this is like the #1 of zig-zags; made in Germany, don't know when, but it's not a new tool de- spite it's nearly new condition. $20.00 MI4 Funky plumb bob that looks like the Goodell-Pratt upside down ones (like an upside down top); in fine shape with no dings or pitting to the point; measures 2 3/4" long. $95.00 MI5 Record No. 077 bull nose rabbet; in near factory new condition. $70.00 MI6 Preston bull nose rabbet; in overall find condition, but numbnuts D.R.Smith pricked his name into the left side; still a very usable tool made only the way Preston could. $70.00 MI7 Very strange washer cutter, with only mark being "PAT DEC. 4 68" or something like that; looks like the old hand-operated can openers with a beam that comes off it, where an adjustable cutter is position; one hand pressed down on and holds the Mickey Mouse ear-like handle while the other turns the beam; wierd, early. $125.00 MI8 Another strange washer cutter that has a wooden wooden knob on a crank that fits inside a cage-like structure; designed for smaller washers. $85.00 MI9 Goodell-Pratt washer cutter, No. 82, in its original green box; label has a bit missing about the background; tool is in complete and find condition, with just a bit of surface rust in a few small areas; got this one from a guy who smokes butts through a hole in his trachea; hooo boy! $65.00 MI10 Buck Bros. drawknife with 4" blade; very hard to find, this one comes from my inner sanctum as I've upgraded (stuff has to be succulent even for consideration of i.s. membership); mark is light, but is definitely there. $195.00 MI11 Millers Falls No. 43 coping saw; new condition. $25.00 MI12 1/8" bevel edge Witherby socketed chisel; blade is overall shiney; handle replaced, but usable as is despite it being somewhat small; 6" blade. $20.00 MI13 2' long Davis level; this is the model with the nickel plated level and plumb vials; ornately cast, with brass plates on both sides under the level vial; as found condition, with nickel about 60%, japanning as well. $145.00 MI14 Slide rule for load adjusting on a B17 bomber; in original leather case, this thing is in new condition; do your impersonation of the Enola Gay (or was she a B19?). $55.00 MI15 Same thing as previous, but for a B24; strap this baby on your belt and be the geek you've always wanted to be; go ahead, I dare ya. $55.00 MI16 _Colonial Craftsman and the Beginnings of American Industry, by Edwin Tunis; soft cover; 150 pages of all sorts of stuff about early trades, including the cat whipper (love that one!); informative book brought to us by the same author of _Chipmunks on the Doorstep_ (Theodore?! Here. Simon!? Here. Alvin?! Alvin?! ALVIN! Here). $45.00 MI17 Coe's 4" adjustable wrench; any lover of wrenches (and, really, aren't we all deep down inside?) has one of these, the #1 of wrenches; this one is the early model, with patent date on jaw; jaws aren't munged to hell; beech handle is dry but not cracked. $125.00 MI18 Screw box and tap for 3/4" stock; this thing is in near new condition and is the ideal size and thread for plough arms; made in Germany, as most are, this one dates from the late 1800's. $75.00 MI19 E.C.Atkins&Co. ram's horn beech scraper; this thing has never been used; only a ding here or there in the finish; priced elswhere in oldtools for over $100, but not here. $95.00 MI20 Simonds 26" 12pt cross cut, applewood handle with cut- out for reversible sawing; nib present on blade, which is mottled; handle is perfect, saw is sharp and ready to go; many oldtime tradesmen recognize that Simonds made the best saws in America, and here's your chance to find that out, too. $60.00 MI21 Buck Brothers 1/4" bevel edge socketed chisel; no handle. $12.50 MI22 42" long wantage stick, manufactured by Kerbey Bros. rule is in overall fine shape, with a small area of missing finish toward the top; also stamped "The Hydraulic Press Mfg Co. Mount Gilead, Ohio"; handy tool for measuring how much beer is left in your next kegga. $145.00 MI23 Sargent #409 smoother with VBM lever cap; tool has a Siegley iron, and a Stanley rosewood tote, which can be left as is or snarfed for parts; plane is dirty, but will clean ok. $25.00 MI24 Pike hand-operated grinder; most of pike decal present on this green painted tool; attaches to bench; No 6 Artisan is the model name; a real working grinder, not a toy. $55.00 MACHINIST ********* MA1 _The Progressive Machinist_ by Rogers; published in 1903, this book contains 350 pages of action packed info for the budding machinist in you; hard-bound cover, with gear, square, and caliper on spine, is in perfect condition; gold-leafed edges; even contains a cut of the first tool-maker, Tubal Cain. $65.00 MA2 2 pair of machinist's lathe clips, large and small; these are the goobers what look like muffler clamps, but with a 90 degree projection coming off one of the v-grooved jaws; in fine usable condition. $25.00 MA3 6" long screw calipers made by Starrett but stamped "YANKEE", along with the 6/2/85 patent date; fine shape. $25.00 MA4 Hoggson&Petis surface gauge; one of the funkier ones, before standardization put an end to the ingenuity of the inventive mind; fully marked and complete; japanning on base about 30%. $185.00 MA5 Ulster Machine Co. speed indicator, in its original unmarked wooden box; this thing is a work of art, and is in 99% new condition; very delicate hands, like those of a mantle clock, much more so than a Davis level; first of these to surface, as far as I know. $500.00 MA6 Hazelton's Patent of 11/21/76; this thing was a mis- directed attempt to make a simple steel rule a general purpose do-it-all thing; by means of adjustable and removable jaws, it functions as a square, caliper, and steel rule; rule is 4" D.B.&S.; stamped with patent date on both sides; ultra-rare and in spiffy condition, with no owner's scribble on it; $750.00 MA7 Brown&Sharpe No. 580 Gear Tooth Verniers, in original case with instructions; few rust spots, which will clean; a precision tool that's not commonly found. $65.00 MA8 Starrett 4" caliper; perfectly functional, needs quick cleaning. $15.00 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Leach Just say Labor savers for days of labor. etc. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25254 ---- From: Gary P. Paine Date: 1997-09-01 07:41:00 Subject: FS Planes and Parts Many of these are left from last FMM and carry reduced prices because they did not sell. New items are marked with an (*). Standard terms apply, but let me know if you are not in North America. Planes P1 Stanley #48 nickle plated swinging fence tongue and groove plane. Fish scale pattern on handle. Good rosewood. Nickle is worn and some small pits on one side of the handle. Blades are replacement. Works well. Clean $50. P2 (*) Stanley 192 rabbit plane has the notched Stanley logo cast in the side of the body and stamped on the cutter. Needs some cleaning and missing the depth stop. $22. P3 Stanley 71 1/2 closed throat router. Stanley No 71 1/2 in script at top of throat, pat 10-29-01 (Type 2) in square recesses in casting. Nice patina on beech knobs, all nickle looks very good. Has the 1/2 inch and the solid triangle cutter (missing 1/4 inch). Clean and pretty $54. P4 Stanley 110 newer model block plane with nickel plated cap and blue paint or japan on casting. Fine condition with original Stanley decal on cap. Clean $8.50 P5 Same thing in as found condition (good but dirty). $6. P7 Another #4 two tone, but beech wood, grey bed, red frog. Handle has glue repair. Otherwise in good condition. $12. P8 Stanley 3 1/2 inch blue and red sheet metal plane. H101 I think. 2 available, very good condition. $4.50 each P9 3 1/2 inch block plane. Cast iron, black with grey screw cap. No marks, but same thick casting style as the common Craftsman pieces. Good user. $5. P11 Stanley 122 transitional smoother. Liberty bell cap, finger hole depth adjustment. Nearly new looking condition with still tight mouth. If this weren?t a duplicate, I would never sell it. Good + $ 65. P12 Stanley #4 low knob smoother, 1902 patent date. Near perfect rosewood and 65% japanning. Pat. Apr. 19, 92 on blade. $40. P13 (*) Stanley #4 low knob smoother, 3 patent date, Pat. Apr. 19, 92 on blade, good wood. This one needs a good cleaning, but it looks like the japan is pretty much all there and no heavy rust or pitting. $30 P15 Stanley 35 transitional. No chips or dings on this handled smoother, and the mouth is still tight. It has not been cleaned up, though, and will need a good cleaning and oiling or waxing of the wood. Some loss of japanning will be found when this is cleaned up, though, because of rusting. I estimate a conservative 50% will remain. Original Pat. Apl 19 92 iron shows little use and will clean up with no pitting. $35. P17 Horned wooden scrub plane. Iron marked SCHMITT Co In good condition, but some residue staining of a green paint or ink stain spill would not clean off without removal of patina. Shows wear to the sole but the wide mouth starts pretty wide on these and it has a lot of use left. Sharp and ready to go. $32. P18 Stanley 102. Japanned body, grey cap, red wheel. Slight deformation to rear of blade where someone hammer adjusted the depth of cut. Good looking plain in good + condition. $16. P19 Stanley #5 two tone. Red casting, yellow frog and capiron. As found condition with surface rust on blade and body, but no pits.. Nickle plated lever cap has some rust specs, though, that probably will leave visible spec marks when it is cleaned, but virtually all the finish is intact on body and frog and 95% of black finish on handle and knob. One large obligatory paint drip on front knob. $17. P20 Stanley Handyman made in England #4 size smoother in as found condition. Still has most of original price sticker on blade. Needs cleaned, some surface rusting, but no pits and handle and knob retain 95% of original black finish. $9. P21 Stanley Bailey #5 Painted hardwood missing over half of original finish, kidney lever cap missing half of its nickel. Good user. $17. P22 Union Factory H Chapin 1 1/2 inch skew rabbit plane. No chips or damage except for a bit of wear to frontmost outside edges, otherwise showing very little wear. Needs cleaning, and should clean to G+ condition. $18. P23 (*) Craftsman 3732 nickel plated very low angle block plane with knuckle joint lever cap and adjustable throat. Clean and good. $15. Parts and Fixer-Uppers Not so much elaboration on these--the planes need work, and at one time interested me for some forgotten reason. I will call out any obvious defect, though. The parts may prove useful. P27 Parplus #3 size good except for surface rust, heavier on sole, but I think will not be pitted. $10 P28 Another Parplus #3 although much dirtier but less rust. $10 P29 American Boy block plane. No damage, just dirty and surface rust. $9. P31 Stanley 220 block plane. Rusty $5.50. P32 Cannot find a name, but it?s a #3 size smoother with a screw lever cap, no cap iron, threaded rod goes thru the top of the tote and a hex nut and washer retain it from the top. Chip from bottom of tote at the rear is the only damage but needs heavy cleaning. $6. P33 Ben Hur #3 size smoother. Good wood, but has paint smears. Heavy rust may hide some shallow pitting--I?m not sure. $5. P36 Fulton #3 size missing a lot of finish on brown painted handle and knob $10. P37 Early #6C Apr. 19, 92 pat. on iron, low knobber. Tote glued and has missing chip at top. Not much rust but needs cleaned. $31. P38 Shelton block plane with blade depth adjuster handle through the cap. Blade has been sharpened several times and is nearing the end of its adjustable range, but will clean up nicely with most of the japanning. $6.50. P39 Sargent # 414 (#5 size) split front knob. $12. P40 Parts of a number 8 type 7 plane (body had been broken): FROG ASSEMBLY complete needs cleaning $4. LEVER CAP B casting mark needs cleaning but good $4 P42 Stanley #378 body. Missing fence and depth stop. Has the 13/16? blade. Otherwise in very good condition. Just the thing for someone with the other parts. $45. P44 Fulton #4 size missing front screw through handle and most of original finish on wood. $12. P45 (*) New Old Stock Stanley cutters. I stumbled onto a stash of unused Stanley cutters and bought them all. Those I am going to sell are as follows: a. One Sweetheart logo NOS cutter for a #93 shoulder plane $15 b. Three notched Stanley logo NOS cutters for a # 1 still in factory cosmoline $40 each c. Seventeen NOS #151 spokeshave cutters $2 each d. Ten NOS # 78 cutters $2 each e. Two. NOS Notched Logo 82 scraper blades $3 each f. Three blades for 282 scraper NOS but no marking $2 each g. Two 61 blades (1 3/8 wide) NOS notched logo $4 each h. Three Sweetheart and one notched logo NOS 110 cutters $4 each Sweetheart $3 notched i. One Sweetheart logo blade for a #80 scraper $10 j. Eighteen C291 1/2 scraper cutters (2 hole U shaped about 1 1/2 inches long probably paint scraper) 25 cents each ---- Start of Message 25255 ---- From: Gary P. Paine Date: 1997-09-01 07:41:00 Subject: FS Boring Related Tools Many of these are left from last FMM and carry reduced prices because they did not sell. New items are marked with an (*). Standard terms apply, but let me know if you are not in North America. B-1 (*) Stanley 02 945B 10 inch sweep brace. Shiny new condition, but not real old. Instead of wood, the brace has a burgendy plastic knob, handle, and transmission control ring. An excellent user and only $15. B-2 (*) A 9 inch sweep Millers Falls early ratchet style from about 1880. This has rosewood handle and grip. It was rusty as found and buffed clean and has a somewhat lightly pitted finish with no nickel left. $9. B-3 Set of 13 (no. 4 through 16) James Swan and Co. Irwin pattern auger bits in original green canvas pouch. These have a medium lead screw, are cleaned, polished, and freshly (properly) sharpened. Bits all have plenty of spur and are in G+ condition. Pouch has brown/orangish spots I assume were rust stains, but no tears or holes. A nice set from a good maker. $65. B-4 Stanley #59 dowel jig for those times when dovetails just are not appropriate. Good + to Fine condition but no box. Complete with all 6 guides and depth stop. $35. B-5 Steel wagonmakers (?) brace with cast iron head, brass keeper for the head, set screw retention for bits. Large brass screw holding head on has a 9 stamped for 9 inch sweep, but no makers mark evident. Good condition showing normal small dings and marks of the years. $15. B-6 Stanley #HI220 eggbeater drill, hi/lo speedster. Still has Stanley paper logo, shows some wear to the gray and orange handle paint. Could use some cleaning. $7. B-7 (*) An unmarked 10 inch sweep brace with burgandy laquer finished hardwood handle and knob. The plating is perfect, there is one chip from the finish on the grip about 1/4 inch diameter. I'm guessing it is a Yankee or a Goodall Pratt because of the burgandy finish, my only clue. $10 B-8 (*) A PS&W No. 1002 10 inch brace with rosewood handle and knob. Some small dents and scratches in the rosewood. The plating is gone and it has some light surface pitting. The brace has an old style chuck with very interesting mechanism that still has the most rigidity of any I have. $16 B-9 (*) A brace marked Bell System, and Yankee No. 2101 A 10 inch. It is in excellent condition. It is a very heavy duty brace and chuck, and is heavier weight wise also. The handle, knob, and adjuster ring are a tough black plastic material. $18 B-10 Dunlap nylon gear eggbeater brace. Red nylon gear still bears original sticker, maple handle. Good quiet user, but not a collectible. $3. B-11 Older Miller Falls No 5 egg beater drill. Complete and in good+ condition missing some red paint and black jappanning on cast iron. Clean and attractive, but it looks to me that the removable side knob may be a replacement because it looks like red stained hardwood rather than rosewood as the other knob and handle are. Great hollow rosewood handle, but old, worn chip from crank knob and owners stamp on steel crank knob. $19. B-12 (*) Stanley 923 10 inch brace. Some wear to the finish on the hardwood handle and knob, and a bit of the nickel, but no bad dings or nicks. Nice tight chuck and ratchet mechanism. Needs cleaning, but will clean to G+ condition or better. $17. B-13 Goodell Pratt large enclosed gear hand (breast?) drill. Has Mar 31, 1896 patent date on its nickel (~50%) crank arm. About 60% black japanning and the same for the red/orange finish on crank. Missing a ferrule on the removable side knob Wood in very good condition but has some small paint spatter that should be cleaned off. This description makes the piece sound a lot worse than it is, it looks pretty good, and works very smoothly. Can?t find a type number but it is 14 inches long and the hardwood handle has a large knob on top. $16. B-14 Stanley #49 bit gage. Excellent condition including nickel plating. $16. B-15 (*) Stanley bits, Irwin style. Good clean set of 6 containing numbers 4,5,6,8,10,12 . Little used, but could stand honing a bit. $20 B-16 A fixer-upper worth the effort. All iron 8 inch sweep brace with cast iron head and a Spofford type split chuck. Needs cleaning and it?s missing the large thumb screw for the chuck. $8. B-17 (*) Adjustable HOLLOW AUGER. I cannot make out the maker's name, but it is the kind with a rotating ring with 8 different sized holes. Looks to have very good japanning, and is complete with the depth stop. Should clean to at least G+. $30. B-18 (*)Another adjustable HOLLOW AUGER, only this one has a nickel plated wheel, has a 4 R on the casting and what I believe is B.S.V.CO. It has a proper replacement cutter and is sharp, but needs some more cleaning. Complete with all parts including the often missing depth stop. $30. B-19 (*) Full set of Irwin Mainbor bits. 4-16. These are as found and need a good cleaning and a freshening up on the cutting edges and/or spurs. They were from a carpenters kit and some were used heavily, so the spurs on some are getting short. A great deal if you are willing to work at them. $20. B-20 (*) Irwin Lockhead No. 2 expansive bit, in the original box with both cutters and instruction sheet. Box is good, bit is fine. $10. B-21(*) 2 inch "barn beam" Auger, 19 inch long shaft, good condition with a nice slotted wood T handle 17 inches long with steel plates either side and carriage bolts with wing nuts to tighten the handle onto the bit. Needs cleaning, but no damage to bit or handle. $15. B-22 I have culled through my stock of auger bits, sorted, and graded them. I set aside all the dogs, and put together the following list of good bits with a lot of use left in them. (About one bit in 10 as normally found make the cut) They are all used, but some very little. Many are still nice and bright. Some have been cleaned and sharpened, and many are as found. I am forever buying what I think are SETS of bits only to find mismatched makers, etc. If you do the same, maybe this list will help. They are described with the following code: Cleanliness C= Cleaned R=Surface Rust NC=Needs Cleaning Spur size Full= Full size 3/4 left 1/2 left Freshly sharpened Yes No Spur Pitch F=Fine M = Medium C=Coarse Except for the two that are separately priced, I am going to ask $3. per bit with a quantity discount of 5 bits for $10. Sizes in 16ths of an inch, of course. RUSSEL JENNINGS (*) 6 NC, 3/4 No, F 7 NC, F, No, F 8 NC, 1/4, No, F MEPHISTO-W.A.IVES Mfg. Co. 11 NC, 3/4, No, C 10 NC, Full, No, M IRWIN-MAINBOR 14 C, 1/2-3/4, No, M 8 NC,R,3/4,No,M 7 NC,1/2,No,M KEEN KUTTER 6 C,1/2,No,M (Ding or pit on one flute and not a strong mark 14 NC,F,No,M CONN VALLEY USA 5 C,3/4,Yes,F GUARANTEED QUALITY MADE IN USA with an emblem like a boy scout shield 8 NC,1/2,No,F 6 NC,1/2,No,F PS & W Co. 8 NC,R,No,F G P CO MADE IN USA 7 NC,1/4-1/2,No,F OUR VERY BEST OVB 6 NC,R,1/2,No,F 4 NC(light),3/4,No,F Red Devel 2403 11 C,1/2,Yes,C (not a strong mark) Vulcan 6 C,3/4-Full,No,M GREENLEY Rockford, Ill $5 20 NC(light), 3/4,No,M Lakeside 12 C,3/4,No,C Craftsman 12 NC,3/4,No,M 10 NC,1/2-3/4,No,M IRWIN single line logo 10 C, 3/4-Full,Yes,M IRWIN USofA square box logo 14 C, Full,Yes,M Germany with an anchor in a double circle 8 C,Full,Yes,M ---- Start of Message 25256 ---- From: Rick Levenson Date: 1997-09-01 04:07:00 Subject: WTB: Tailor's shears... Well, I know it is not a WW tool, but I just ended up with my grandfather's toolbox and he was a tailor from early in the century. Most notably missing are any kind of shears. I'd like to find a suitably old pair to complete the set of tools. Anyone? Thanks, Rick ---- Start of Message 25257 ---- From: Matt Prusik Date: 1997-09-01 04:07:00 Subject: September WTB/FS List SEPTEMBER WTB/FS LIST This month not all that much is new. I have several new items on hand which will be added in a future List. But due to time constraints with regard to being self employed, I have not had the time to properly inventory and add these items into this month's List. As per last month, I have another new Moulding Plane special. This follows with my desire to close these items out of inventory. Other than the foregoing, following please find my list of items for sale. These items are duplicates in my current collection or are items in which I am simply uninterested. Each item is in the condition I found it, unless otherwise noted. Every attempt to be accurate in the description has been made. If you are interested in an item, please contact me via reply e-mail and include your address for delivery; along with city, state and zip code. To avoid confusion, my terms are different than those known as "Old Tools Standard Terms". I intend to make only one (1) trip to UPS (which is some distance away) to send ALL of the items at once. At the outside, I would expect this to be around ten to fourteen (10-14) days AFTER the initial posting; but it may well be sooner or longer depending upon the number of customers and whatever the demands of my full time job are over the course of the upcoming month. The procedure I prefer to use is as follows. You e-mail me that you're interested in an item; including your shipping address with city, state and zip code. In my confirming e-mail, I will tell you how much shipping and packaging is, and once you receive the confirmation from me that the tool you are interested in is yours, send me a check or US Postal Service Money Order care of the return address in the responding e-mail. I will advise each customer, via e-mail, upon receipt of his check, and once again advise when the item is shipped. Each tool shipped is guaranteed to satisfy you 100%. If upon receipt, you are not 100% satisfied with the tool, simply repackage it and return it to me at the shipping address. In turn, I will refund your entire purchase price with no questions asked. For the record, I am not a dealer, I do not run this "service" on the order of a "business" and am just trying to make a few dollars to rid my collection of duplicates and feed my habit. Consequently, while it would be nice if I sold all of these items for cash, trades can be accommodated. This goes particularly for my "wanted to buy" (WTB) items, listed as follows: ANY Dovetail Plane, blade and cap iron for STANLEY No. 7, FWW No. 47 & frog assembly for STANLEY No. 8 FOR SALE: Back Issues of Magazines: FWW - All of these back issues are in variable condition. However each one is in good enough shape to be complete and readable. Pricing is as follows: Single copies - $5.00 each - Five or more - $4.50 each, Ten or more $4.00 each, Twenty-five or more $3.50 each. Anyone interested in a bulk price on ALL copies (and I MEAN ALL) , please e-mail. Price DOES NOT include shipping. Vol. 2 No.2, 14-15; 19-20-(2) 23, 25-29 33-40, 42 (2) - 45 (2), 46; 48 (2) - 49; 51-54; 56-57; 59- (65-2); (68-2) 69; 72, 74-83; 85-86 (2); 89; 91; 93-94; 96 (2)-99 (2); 101; 103; 108- 117 [109 (2); 110 (2), 112 (2); 114 (2); 117 (2)], 119-121; 123 No cover - 31, 41, 55 & 87 $10.00 ALL Gouges, Chisels & Slicks: gcs01 Unmarked 2" wide, 6" long non-original HANDLED slick, 15" long. $50.00 gcs02 Unhandled 1 15/16" slick with 6 ½" of blade left, marked (?) HUBBARD, HWCC, MIDDLETOWN CONN, barbed handle with some minor mushrooming on barb. $25.00 gcs03 Handled #6 (sweep) 3/4" carving gouge, marked GERMANY in need of sharpening and a new handle; but still plenty sharp. $15.00 gcs04 Maker's mark illegible, ½" paring chisel, marked CAST STEEL. $15.00 gcs05 BUCK BROS. 7/8" paring chisel, marked CAST STEEL, leather washer coming off otherwise in nice shape. $20.00 gcs06 ROBT SORBY gouge, possibly original octagon handle, marked CAST STEEL with Spanish Cross design. $25.00 gcs07 JAMES SWAN gouge, needs sharpening but plenty of steel left. $20.00 gcs09 BUCK BROTHERS 9/64" mortise chisel, light spotty surface rust. $15.00 gcs10 BUCK BROTHERS 5 piece carving set, short plastic handles, 2 V gouges, 1 spoon gouge, 1 small fishtail, 1 (hollowing) gouge; some need sharpening others have an edge but in any case plenty of steel is left. $35.00 Block Planes: bp01 STANLEY No. 220, good shape, 90% japanning, light rust. $25.00 bp02 STANLEY brand 6" block plane, same as above but with "traditional" lever cap, some rust and some slight pitting; definitely salvageable. $15.00 bp03 STANLEY No. 110, nice little planes, complete and in user shape. Two available at $20.00 each! bp04A-D STANLEY No. 118, good blades, some minor cosmetic defects, all fully functional and in ready to go shape as user planes. $15.00 each bp05 STANLEY No. 110, no knob, decal intact, looks unused, nice shape. $15.00 bp06 STANLEY no number block plane, looks like 110 but has finger depression instead of knob, looks unused. $15.00 bp07 DUNLAP low angle block plane, needs cleaning and sharpening, no major rust or major flaws that I can detect. $20.00 bp08 STANLEY block plane, fixed mouth, japanning intact on base casting and lever cap, needs cleaning and sharpening, no major flaws that I can detect. $25.00 bp09 STANLEY TWO TONE block plane, maroon and yellow, dusty but intact, surface rust on blade, resemble No. 220, little used. $20.00 Spokeshaves & Scrapers: ss01 STANLEY No. 51, "640" cast into right hand side semicircular depression under blade, Sweetheart logo on blade, 30% japanning left, one minor nick near mouth, appears to be original thumbscrew. $25.00 ss04A-B UK made STANLEY No. 80 scrapers, new and unused but dusty. $30.00 each ss05 DISSTON No. 20 hand scrapers, marked Danville, VA, some used, some new but all serviceable. MY CHOICE - $3.00 each Metal Bench Planes: be01 SARGENT No. 3 style, cracked tote, some minor rust, 30% japanning, plenty of blade, looks and feels like a STANLEY No. 3. $20.00 be02 STANLEY No. 4, cracked sole, complete parts plane or glue plane. $12.00 be03 STANLEY No. 3, 50% japanning, lots of genuine STANLEY old blade left, some nicks, no appreciable rust, some tarnish and discoloration, intact plating on lever cap. $30.00 be04 STANLEY UK No. 4, light rust, needs cleaning, good user. $20.00 be05 UNKNOWN brand (equivalent of STANLEY No. 4) with STANLEY iron and chip breaker. Some stress cracks on sole; but a definite user for those "dirty jobs". $20.00 be06 SARGENT VBM No. 4 equivalent, one side of casting cracked, no chip breaker, otherwise complete, good parts plane for VBM collectors. $10.00 be07 STANLEY No. 21 transitional, circa 1907, small chip out of know, used but not abused, some paint on sole but original varnish still visible. A poor man's No. 2! $85.00 be08 STANLEY RULE & LEVEL No. 35, marked L. Bailey, 1867 patent date, long used plane, appears complete and collectible or good for parts. $45.00 or best offer be09 SEARS copy of STANLEY No. 4, little used and in nice shape. $20.00 be11 STANLEY No. 5, type with S T A N L E Y marked on adjusting lever, top of tote broken, functional repair made on cracked tote, small spot of rust pitting on sole away from mouth, purchased from retire carpenter, not great in the looks department but an most serviceable user. $40.00 be12 STANLEY No. 7, same type as above, in better overall shape, japanning 75%, no rust, some paint spots on sole, looks better than above but still user grade. $65.00 Wooden Moulding Planes: SPECIAL OFFER: Modeleld after previous successes, I am renewing my Super Special on these mp00 stock numbers. As before, take ONE HALF off any mp00 stock number! To the first person taking ALL of the remaining mp00 stock numbers, I'll offer the lot at $110.00 for ALL and I mean ALL ONLY! mp01 SANDUSKY #116 rabbet plane $12.00 mp03 ADAM HOPE & CO., No. 18 round moulding plane $25.00 mp04 NO Mark 1" rabbet plane $15.00 mp05 SARGEANT No. 633 bullnose plane - TWO IRONS! $55.00 mp06 COLUMBIA beading plane $35.00 mp08 BENSEN & ORANNEL 7/8" round moulding plane $45.00 mp09 A. MOCKRIDGE, ½" hollow - modified profile (depth stop?) $35.00 mp10 SANDUSKY No. 157 1 1/4" rabbet plane $40.00 mp12 E. BALDWIN, No. 12, 3/4" round moulding plane $30.00 mp13 GREENFIELD TOOL CO., Greenfield, Mass tongue plane, No. 394, marked "8" $25.00 mp14 MARTIN DOSCHER, New York, 7/8" tongue plane, screw eye in heel $20.00 Other Miscellaneous Planes: omp01 STANLEY No. 78 rabbet plane,. Patent Date 6-7-10, missing depth stop and fence assembly, has spur, japanning sound, a fine user! $30.00 omp02 STANLEY No. 39 ½, complete and japanning is in like new, out of the box condition. Cutter already honed for use by prior owner. Also patent date Aug.12.02 (Type I). $160.00 omp03 STANLEY No. 48, tongue and groove plane, fish scale design on handle, some finish worn through to base metal, appears complete although cutters MAY not be original. Overall, a solid user. $60.00 omp04 UK STANLEY No. 78, older model, New In Box & complete, used TWICE by owner, even has original packaging paper on fence and allied parts! $45.00 omp05 CRAFTSMAN knock off of MILLERS FALLS No. 85 (equivalent of STANLEY No. 78), no fence or depth stop, blade serviceable, some flattening needed. $20.00 omp06 CRAFTSMAN newer version of above, gray color, no fence or depth stop, blade serviceable, some flattening required. $15.00 omp07 MILLERS FALLS No. 85, complete, minor chipping on japanning otherwise intact, slightly used. $50.00 Wooden Bench Planes: wp01 A. MOCKRIDGE (Newark, NJ), 16" plane, fair shape, cracked tote and patched mouth, easily repairable, own a 19th Century plane. $20.00 wp02 SANDUSKY 16" plane, good shape, marked 1909. $20.00 wp03 SANDUSKY 22" jack plane $40.00 wp04 OWACO TOOL CO., 22" jack plane, OHIO TOOL iron $35.00 wp05 CHAPIN UNION FACTORY 16" plane $25.00 wp06 SANDUSKY No. 167 sash plane, EXCELLENT & PRISTINE! $95.00 wp07 I&M SORBY coffin smoother $25.00 wp08 HUMPHREY coffin smoother, mucho meato on blade. $25.00 Measuring Tools: mt01 STANLEY No. 72 gauge, excellent shape. $30.00 mt02 CROWN brand 6' folding rule marked MADE IN OCCUPIED JAPAN. $25.00 mt03 DEFIANCE 6' folding rule. $20.00 Saws & Saw Vises: saw01 DISSTON & RICHARDSON 12" compass saws, saw blades bent, handles and rivets excellent. - Two for one money! $10.00 saw02 12" fret saw marked JAMES SOWARTH, Sheffield, England, looks all original, needs wooden tensioner. $50.00 saw03 Unmarked stair saw, all original, natural finish. $20.00 saw04 DISSTON CHAMPION(?) logger's saw, some pitting but usable, 35" (originally 36") long, with extra handle. $45.00 saw05 DISSTON No. 1 saw vise, japanning mostly gone from the front and virtually complete on back, otherwise intact, good user $30.00 saw06 E. C. STEARN'S 10 ½" saw vise, patent date of AUG. 22, 1899, shows signs of possible complete and tasteful repair, japanning or paint about 90%, small dent on left hand side of front vise jaw, otherwise fully functional and good user in "as found" condition. $20.00 saw07 DISSTON 14" mitre saw, marked DANVILLE, VA, blade needs cleaning but it is sharp and usable. $20.00 Hammers: ham01 Cobbler's Hammer $15.00 ham02 Small cross peen hammer, metal handle. $10.00 ham3A-B Unmarked rawhide mallets, face is 2" in diameter by 3 ½" long. 3A - used - $10.00; 3B - almost new - $15.00 Miscellaneous Tools, Etc.: misc01 Large Handscrews marked S. REA. $10.00 each ! misc02 DIAMOND FORGE wrench $10.00 misc03 Early Brace $15.00 misc04 COLTON'S No. 10 File Cleaner, LIKE NEW! $10.00 misc05 CLIPPER brand leather belt cinching tool $50.00 misc06 Brass Thickness Gauge $ 3.00 misc07 Autosport pocket knife $25.00 misc08 Colonial Forest Master knife $15.00 misc10 CARBORUNDUM stone (salmon colored) with case $10.00 misc11 Barrel Spigot marked JOHN SOMERS BEST XL $25.00 misc12 STANLEY No. 104 level $15.00 misc13 Screw-on oil jar spout $ 5.00 misc14 Wooden handscrew, approximately 12", marked INLAND TYPE FOUNDRY, ST. LOUIS, MO., NO.6 and NO.#, threads excellent, serviceable but somewhat dirty, a sweet looking or working handscrew. $25.00 misc15 STANLEY RULE AND LEVEL CO., No. 59 Doweling Jig, in box with instructions and price sheet, four dowel tubes and two mounting pieces $40.00 misc16 Shipwrights Adze (straight, no lip) with handle. No visible mark. A clean tool! $45.00 misc17 Bench Stops for 5/8" and 3/4" diameter holes. $10.00 pair misc18 Textile mill threading iron marked, H. POLSTERDOT. $15.00 misc19 Unmarked caulking iron. $10.00 misc20 ULMIA "beam router", ploughs dado and other profiles to set inlay banding and create other decorative effects in the work. A nice versatile tool. Appears brand new and is set up for banding. Price includes small quantity of banding. I would keep it myself, but I have no interest in this tool and it duplicates something I already have. In fact I only bought it because it came in a box lot. Do NOT pass up this opportunity to own a genuine ULMIA tool from Germany! $95.00 Books, Catalogs and Printed Matter: bcp02 NY Central and Hudson River Railroad Co. PENSION DEPARTMENT booklets and 1914 edition of SAFETY RULES. $15.00 bcp03 1938 BROWN & SHARPE SMALL TOOLS CATALOG NO. 33, with product inserts, outstanding engravings of tools! $40.00 bcp04 December 1940 issue of MODERN MACHINE SHOP. $10.00 bcp05 RCA Receiving Tube Manual, 1947 edition. $20.00 ---- Start of Message 25258 ---- From: Steve Reynolds Date: 1997-09-01 00:09:00 Subject: FS: block planes, jack, jointer, and slick The following are offered under Standard Oldtools Terms To celebrate the kickoff of another football season include the line "Are you ready for some football?" in your reply to receive the Gridiron Special ($1 off your order) METALLIC PLANES BLOCK PLANE - CRAFTSMAN equivalent of the Stanley #9 ½. It has a green wrinkle finish which is 100% on the sole and 80% on the lever cap. The mouth is adjusted by the common eccentric lever found on the Stanley model. The lever cap is marked on the underside: 2 .C 331 CS The blade is marked: "CRAFTSMAN" (in a shape that looks like a cross between the Stanley rectangle and a crown) MADE IN U.S.A. 187.37052 DD It is a solid user that I think is in good+ condition. - $25.00 BLOCK PLANE - STANLEY #9 ½. An actual Stanley model of the adjustable-mouth block plane. This one has 100% japanning on the sole and 90% on the lever cap. It is rusty with a few white paint drips but should clean up nicely with no pitting to good+ condition. It doesn’t appear to have seen much use. The only problem with this plane is it is missing the blade, but as you have heard before "others will fight to sell you one". $25.00 ************ JACK PLANE - STANLEY #5 type 13. The lever cap has a notched rectangle logo with a black japanned background. Sweetheart blade with plenty of length. Tip off tote and a properly repaired crack. The knob has only toolbox dings. Japanning is 90% with some paint drips. A good user. - $30.00 ************** JOINTER PLANE - STANLEY #7 type 11. Small chip from the side in the back will not effect use. Plenty of length left on the Sweetheart blade. Repainted sole. Wood is good with no cracks or chips. This one is in Good condition - $60.00 CHISELS SLICKS - 2 ½" wide by 13" long blade, marked "P. MERRILL & Co.", with a handle that brings the total length to 17". - $70.00 WANT LIST I would like to trade one (or more if necessary) of the above tools on the sale list for any of the below: #93 shoulder plane } #79 side rabbet plane }<- non-Stanley equivalents would be fine #71 router plane } Disston #D15 or #D115 saw (especially with the victory logo) Disston #77 saw Disston D3 saw vice Millers Falls #1 cigar spokeshave Regards, Steve ---- Start of Message 25259 ---- From: David Hunkins Date: 1997-09-01 00:09:00 Subject: Re: Skew Angle for 46 Cutters At 10:45 PM 8/31/97 EDT, Thomas E. McCluskey wrote: > >On Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:16:19 -0400 (EDT) Dnbyr@a... writes: >>Couple of weeks back, Thomas McCluskey inquired about the proper skew >>angle >>of cutters for the Stanley 46 plane, to which Patrick Leach replied: >> >>>> 25 degrees +/- an angstrom or two. >> >>snip all the measuring stuff. > >Thanks for the response > >Chock it up to newbie lack of vocabulary. > > I reasoned that the angle/angles that the cutter clamps into the plane >is fixed. ( I can't change it) The only angles I control as someone who >wants to sharpen his blades accurately, is the bevel angle (the primary >angle of the cutting edge in relation to the flat part of the blade) and >the skew angle (the angle of the the cutting edge in relation to the >sides.) On a typical plane blade the "standard" bevel is 25 degrees. >The "standard" skew is 90 degrees ( or maybe 0 degrees) > >(BTW I am trying to indicate my understanding whether correct or >incorrect by use of parentheses) > >Based on the input from the group, the skew on the #46 cutter is 68 to 71 >degrees. > >BTW what was the variance on your 1880s vs. 1920s?. The reason I ask is >my plane is from the 20s and the cutters wers purchased separately and >are older. Tom, I made access and unpacked the box containing my No.46 this weekend and took a measurement. Same as previously reported, I think by Ernie, at near 68.5 degrees. This is from original boxed blades that came with an early Type 5 (1884-85) according to the Roger Smith study in the latest Walter. Hope this helps more than my previously flippant reply which suggested measuring, etc. David ---- Start of Message 25260 ---- From: David Hunkins Date: 1997-09-01 04:13:00 Subject: Re: Fox & Washburn? At 08:31 PM 8/31/97 -0400, PaulEbert@a... wrote: >Yesterday I picked up a Fox & Washburn toted match plane. I'd be very >appreciative of any info. on this maker. It's a nice plane that has the >distinction of being the first wooden plane I've bought that worked >reasonably well without significant tuning (OK, I've only bought three so >far...). > >There's another thing that's got me curious, and dissapointed. It is the >tongue cutting half of the pair. The groove cutter is long gone, but I >bought it thinking my plow plane could fill in. Well, I get it home and >measure the gap and it is 0.275 inches. Of course, my plow plane iron is >0.25 inches. Any idea why the iron would have that gap? It does not appear >to have been altered. To which Don responded with maker info and talked about what size stock the plane was designed to be used on. My experience is that T&G planes made for use with 7/8" stock are most common ... I think we went through a discussion along these lines a few months back. Regardless of what size stock this plane was designed for, it helps to make a valuable point. These planes were made in pairs. The maker didn't care whether a tongue was 0.25" or 0.275" ... he only cared that the groove cut by the complementary plane of the pair worked with its mate. This further illustrates the value of finding matching pairs and keeping them together ... and why the cost of the pair is often far greater than the sum of two parts found separately. David ---- Start of Message 25261 ---- From: Gary Roberts Date: 1997-09-01 04:22:00 Subject: FS: Lotsa books, catalogs and ephemera (loonnnggg) September stuff for sale. Lotsa new stuff along with old stuff. First firm offer takes precedence. If you are seriously considering an item but have a question, just let me know your intentions. Please remember...I SHIP UPON RECEIPT OF PAYMENT. Also, take into account that I've included postage on all items just 'cause it's easier this way. If you want an item shipped Priority Mail that is under 3 lbs, let me know as it will cost you more. And of course, international shipping also cost a bit extra. I have more than one of some items, so read carefully. Gary Roberts 1077 South Street Roslindale, MA 02131-2321 groberts@s... ................................ Ephemera (HB = hardback, SB = softback, DJ = dust jacket) .................................. 1. "Collins Axe Company" Advertising Poster. (only 1 left..the other one is sold) 10"x19.25". Full color with raised print and logo. The headline print is in Red and reads: "The Axes of the World are Collins" over a double world globe (set against blue sky and red/gold clouds) and above a raised graphic of a Collins Axe in woodtone, black and silver (aluminum dust ink). "The Best is the Cheapest, Collins & Co., Hartford, Conn, USA". Has string at top for hanging. Excellent condition. Some very slight surface crackling of raised print. These posters came out of the Collins Axe factory. They where found when the factory was being renovated as an antiques mall. There are only six left that I know of and these are two of those six (of course I kept one for myself). A beautiful example of tool advertising and of advertising art. Provided shrink wrapped over foam board for safety. I plan on framing mine. It's that good. Price: $110.00 2. "The Chronicle of The Early American Industries Association" a. 12/77 wooden compass plane, sailmaking, Cartwright tool chest. b. 3/77 Hx of the Leonard Bailey Tool Co., ice harvesting tools, shaving horse, etc.. All very good condtion. Price per issue: $6.00 3. Machine and Tool Blue Book.10/43; 6/42, 10/59, 7/57. Lots more ads. Price for all: $12.00 4. Carpentry & Building, five issues: January,1885; April,1885; October,1885; November,1885; August,1887. All in very good condition. Minor wear to covers. Tons of adverstisements for handtools, machine woodworking tools and hardware. Articles. letters and plans. Reviews of 'new' tools. You can't call yourself a collector until you have read these. Fascinating stuff. I'm only moving them because I was lucky enough to get a full bound set. All five issues as one lot. They don't come cheaper than this... Price: $65.00 5. "O. S. Rixford's Scythes and Axes, East Highgate, Vermont" C. 1880. SB. ORIGINAL trade catalog. 4"x6.5". 68 pgs. Axes, Sythes, Snathes and Patent Axe boxes. Green cover, cream interior. Full page steel plate illustrations of each item with text descriptions on facing page. Minor thin water stain on edge and 1/2" wide by 4" long rust or dirt stain on top of back cover (Neither stain affects the look of the catalog). Otherwise excellent condition throughout. Price: $72.00 6. "Delta Milwaukee Industrial Machine Tools". 1950. SB catalog 8.5x11. 64 pgs. Very good condition with exception of 4" tear and small missing piece of rear cover. Industrial metal and wood working machinery. Price: $12.00 7. "Delta Rockwell Industrial Power Tools with special insert of Delta Homecraft Power Tools". 1955. 8.5x11. 83 pgs. SB. Very good condition. Basically same as #6 with addition of Homecraft line. Price: $15.00 8. "Delta Quality Tools, Motor Driven. 1936 Catalog M-2". 8.5x11. 46 pgs. SB. Tools for the home shop and the small pro shop. Very good condition with exception of small crease on front cover. Price: $18.00 9. "Atlas Woodworking Power Tools" (2 copies available)1954. 8.5x11. 31 pgs. SB.Tools for the home or small pro shop. Excellent condition. Price each: $15.00. 10. "Boice Crane Power Tools Cutting Shaping, Drilling, Finishing, Wood, Metal, Plastics, Catalog 57" 8.5x11. 51 pgs. SB. Very good condition. Tools for the pro shop. Price: $12.00 11. "Stanley Electric Tools Catalogue No. 66." 1939. 8.5x11. SB. 52 pgs. Slightly rough outside edge with thin water stains.This may have originally had a cover. Otherwise very good condition. Be at the forefront of the new collecting area... early electric power tools!! Drills, grinders, hammers, hole saws, sanders, saws, screw drivers and unishears. Price: $12.00 12. "Stanley Router -Shaper" 1947. Hand held router. 7x9. SB.21 pgs. Catalog of basic router and all the accessories. Minor cover wear, otherwise good. Price: $13.00 13. "Millers Falls Catalog 49". 1949. SB 5x7.25. 176 pgs. For some reason someone cut out sections of pgs 53 and 55. This catalog is the Buck Rogers versions with the space age planes and drills. First Millers Falls catalog to list all Goodell Pratt tools with the MF name instead of GP. Introduces the 709 and 714 Buck Rogers planes. (There are two versions of this catalog. The other version has an additional page that states "National Emergency" and relates changes in pricing and availability due to the war effort). Very good condition... other than missing pages... so the price is only: $16.00 14. "Starrett Catalog No. 26". 1938. 5x7. 282 pgs. SB. Good condition with creased cover and lightly dogeared lower corner and small piece missing from top of spine. Price: $16.00 15. "Starrett Catalog No. 26" same as item 14 but very good condition. Price: $26.00 16. "Starrett Catalog No. 26". This catalog has the same cover in red and it is 288 pgs. Cover has loose spine. Catalog has rippled pages, the result of a printing problem. Slight foxing on lower edge. Price: $16.00. 17. "Starrett Catalog No. 25, 50th Anniversary". 5.25x7.5. 383 pgs. SB. Fair condition. Hole punched threw top 1/4 " below edge. Dog eared. Some folded pages. Price: $15.00 18. "Starrett Catalog No. 23 with supplement". 1924. 5.25x7.5. 352 pgs. SB. Heavily creased covers. Good interior with a few small foxing spots. Price: $18.00 19. "Millers Falls Catalog No. 42" 1938. 70th year anniversary catalog. 5x7. 240 pgs. SB. Consolidated Millers Falls and Goodell Pratt lines. Includes new electric tool line. Excellent condition with exception of very slight water damage along spine.. so slight you can hardly see it. Pencil inscription on first page "E. L. Goodhue, Tool Design". Price: $38.00 20. "Brown & Sharpe New Tools supplment to catalogs no. 32 and 140". 4.5x6.75. SB. 37 pgs. 1937. New tools and items withdrawn. Good condition. Price: $10.00 21. "Brown & Sharpe Small Tools Catalog No. 30". 4.5x6.5. 448 pgs. SB. 1926 Where there is usually a dealers label, there is a label that reads "Brown & Sharpe Mfg. Co. 1103-1105 Liberty Building, Philadelphia, PA.". This may have been an inhouse catalog for a branch office. Interior good, cover worn but intact with hanging hole punched in upper left hand corner. Price: $24.00 22. "Brown & Sharpe Small Tools Catalog No. 31". 1929. 4.5x6.5. 428 pgs.SB. Cover good with minor dirt and minimal moisture staining in corner, interior good with some minor staining first few pages. Includes new tools section. Price: $24.00 23. "Brown & Sharpe Small Tools Catalog No. 32". 1935. 4.5x6.5. 448 pgs. SB. Excellent condition throughout with exception of slight dog eared corner. Price:$28.00 24. "Brown & Sharpe Small Tools Catalog No. 34". 1941. 4.5x6.5. 512pgs.SB. Cover slightly worn, interior excellent. Price: $24.00 25. "Hammacher Schlemmer & Co. Catalogue No. 630". The "Imp" Catalog. full color graphics of imps on front and back covers working wood. C 1930. 5x7. 160 pgs. SB. Cover clear and sharp with very slight shelf wear on edges. Interior excellent. One of the most graphic covers of the HS catalogs. All the major brands of hand and electric tools of the day. Price: $72.00 26. "K& E Engineer's Instruments" 1937. 5.75x8.75. 98 pgs include price insert. Steel plate engravings of suveyors equipment. Cover slightly shelf worn with some even staining. Interior excellent. Price: $48.00 27. "Stanley Rafter and Framing Squares" 1947 pocket instruction booklet. 3.25x6.25. 45pgs. SB. A few pages are creased from the printing process, otherwise very good condtion. Price: $10.00 28. "Stanley Rafter and Framing Squares" 1954 pocket instruction booklet. 3.25x6.25. 45pgs. SB. Excellent condition. Price: $13.00 29. "Colton Combination Tool Holder Co,, Easthampton, Mass) C. 1930. 6x3.5. 4pgs with self cover. Bright yellow paper. Small sales item for Colton machine tool holders. Nice halftone illustrations with price lists for each model tool holder. Price: $9.00 30. "Stanley Plane Facts" C. 1960 5x7. 13 pgs. Yellow and black cover. "How to Select, How to Use, How to Care For, How to Sharpen". Basic introduction to use of planes. This is the US version, not the British version. Very good condition. Price: $18.00 31. "Hand Tools, General Motors War Products Training Service.1943. SB. 5.25"x8.25". 52 pgs. The wierd little booklet put out by GM to teach armed services members (who had never seen a wrench) the rudiments of tools. Nice graphics on cover. Illustrated. Price: $3.00 32. "Cleveland Automatic Machine Co." Trade catalog. C. 1930. 9"x6.25". 285 pgs. Heavy paper cover, cloth spine. The complete line of the Cleveland automatic machine company including tooling and RPM charts. Illustrated throughout. Cover shelf worn, interior very good. If you have one of these machines in your parlor, you certainly need this catalog. Price: $30.00 33. "Scribner's Lumber & Log Book" 1946. Enlarged. (don't ask me how it is enlarged, it looks just like the 1900 version, down to the engravings.) 3"x4.75". 188 pgs. SB. Got some trees to cut and need to know how to do it and how to figure board feet? Then you need this book. Very good condition with 1/2" sq label removal mark on front page (it wasn't me). This is one of the nicer copies of Scibner's that I've seen. Price: $15.00 34. "Disston Saw, Tool and File Manual...How to choose and use tools for longer tool life... Fight Waste". January 1952. Includes the mailing envelope that reads "A Disston Gift for you. With a red print bow and cartoons of Grandpa, Dad and Sonny. All very good condition with exception of envelope flap stuck to corner of manual leaving a little piece of paper. I though the last one I sold was it for this, but I turned up one more in the same box lot. So this is really it. Price: $28.00 35. "Getting the most out of your circular saw and jointer" Deltacraft publication, C 1937 & 1949. 6" x 9". 64 pages. Hey Dad! Make a power boat this Weekend for the Kids! Everything the pile smoking Dad needed to know. Good condition... a little wear from use. Price: $8.00. 36. Stanley Tools catalog #54 "Do It Better With Stanley Tools". 6.5x9. 48 pages. 1954 Very good condition. Stamped with Syracuse NY store. Price: $28.00 37. Stanley Tools catalog #54 "Do It Better With Stanley Tools". 48 pages. 6.5x9.1954 Very good condition. Stamped with Erie Blvd store (?state) and tel # 3-1381. Price: $28.00 38. Stanley Tools catalog #53 "Do It Better With Stanley Tools". 48 pages. 6.5x9.1953 Very good condition. Stamped with Philadelphia PA store. Price: $32.00 39. "American La France Operator's Manual, Twelth Edition, 500 Series Models, Scout to Type 1000, beginning with register L-1001". 1940's ???. 6x9. 98 pgs. Operators manual supplied with pumper. Just what you need for that fire engine in your front yard. Cover well worn, interior paper good with some wear and tear on edges of first few pages. Price: $18.00 40. "Getting the Most Out of Your Lathe, Wood Turning, Metal Turning, Metal Spinning, Published by Delta". 1935. 6x9. 48 pgs. Mild soil on covers, otherwise very good condition throughout. The title says is all. Price: $15.00 41. "Getting the Most Out Of Your Abrasive Tools, The Belt Sander, The Disk Sander, The Grinder, The Buffing Head, Published by Delta". 1939. 6x9. 40 pgs. Very good condition. Price: $12.00 42. "Simonds Guide for Carpenters" C. 1930. 2.5x5. SB. 64 pgs. Pocket guide includes 38 pgs of "recipes" and the rest is a trade catalog of halftone prints. If anyone has the joiners saw, I'll happily trade this for that. Creased red cover and pen note on first page, otherwise very good condition. Price: $12.00 ................................... Books (HB = hardback, SB = softback, DJ = dust jacket) .................................... 43. "American Woodworking Tools", Paul Kebabian, Dudley Witney, New York Graphic Society, 1978. 8.75"x11". 213 pgs. HB. Color and B&W illust. Interior excellent. Minor shelf wear on cover. DJ has minor tears at top and crease on front. Picture of Boxwood Sandusky Center Wheel plow on DJ. I think that this is the most attractive book ever produced on tools. Heavily illustrated with color and B&W photographs of both rare and commonplace tools. Accompanying text is thorough and descriptive. A very hard to find out of print book. No book shelf is complete without it. No kidding. Price: $62.00 44. "How to Work with Tools and Wood for the home workshop". Stanley Rule & Level Plant. First edition,1927. Navy cloth cover with gold lettering. Slight wear to spine. Interior excellent with exception of slight wrinkling first two pages (appears to have occured during original binding process). Price: $ 38.00 45. "Audels Carpenters and Builders Guide. Vol. 1: Tools, steel square, saw filing, joinery, furniture". 1951. Includes sections on band saws, jig saws and table saws. Good condition throughout. Price: $6.00. 46. "Hodgson's New Hardwood Finishing, Including Wood Manipulation, Staining and Polishing, by Fred T. Hodgson". Second edition, 1915. Red cloth cover. 213 pgs. Cover good with light water stains. Interior excellent. Describes use of tools and finishing materials. Of note is that the planes shown are wood planes, not the everpresent Bailey style. Although this book is dated 1904 and 1915, the illustration style and text appears to be late 1800's. I've always thought that the author was reusing an earlier text. Hodgson changed publishers more than once, so it is possible that he was recycling an earlier work. In any event, here is everything you need to know to prepare and finish hardwoods. And it is a fascinating read in and of itself. Price: $24.00 47. "Hodgson's New Hardwood Finishing, Including Wood Manipulation, Staining and Polishing, by Fred T. Hodgson". Second edition, 1915. Red cloth cover. 213 pgs. Same as no. 45... however this one is stained with brown wood stain along the top of the first 70 pages. The stain doesn't reach any text or graphics. Price: $12.00 48. A Laboratory Course In Wood-Turning. by Michael Joseph Golden. The American Book Company. 1897. (2 copies available) I originally thought this was rebound. I was wrong... this is the original binding. 6.25"x9" 69pgs. Excellent interior. Illustrated throughout. A manual arts training manual with exercises. Price: $15.00 49. Art and Education In Wood Turning. by William W. Klencke. 1921. The Manual Arts Press. 110 pgs. 6.25x9". A manual arts training manual, illustrated throughout. Excellent condition. Price: $15.00 50. "Gilding on Glass, Wood or Metal" Revised Edition by Lawrence C. Strong, E. C. Mathews and Clarence E. Dupont. 1935. 5.5x8.5. 45 pgs. This is without a doubt a facsimile reprint of the 1935 edition. This was intended to be a guide for the sign maker. Excellent condition. Price: $11.00 51. "Manual of Traditional Wood Carving, edited by Paul Hasluck". Dover 1977 reprint of the 1911 original. 6.5x9. 568 pgs. SB. Illustrated. Sections on methods and a large section with illustrations of carving back to medieval times. Very good condition. Price: $15.00 52. "Wood Pattern Making" by Edmund C. Hanley. 1922-24. 6x9. 208 pgs. HB. Vocational text. Halftone and line illustrations for core box work. Numerous detailed drawings of projects ranging from bearings to pulleys to propellers. Minor cover wear. Interior very good. Price: $16.00. 53. "Tools, Chucks and Fixtures" by Albert A. Dowd, Production Engineer. The Industrial Press.1920 edition of the 1915 text. 6.5x9. 304 pgs. HB. "A comprehensive and detailed treatise covering the design and use of cutting tools and holding devices employed in turning and boring operations in modern manufacturing plants for obtaining accuracy and increasing production." Try saying that with one breadth. This book is a compilation of Dowd's articles from the periodical MACHINERY. Very minor shelf wear to cover. Interior very good. Price: $28.00 54. "Patternmaking Methods, Materials and Equipment, 424 Illustrations, by Editorial Staff, International Correspondence Schools". 1927 edition of 1901-1915 text. 6x9. Approx 300 pages. This is one of the nicest looking patternmaking texts. Profusely illustrated with steel plate engravings of tools and techniquest for all aspects of patternmaking. The illustrations of a mold maker alone are worth it.AND... there is even a comment on corrugated metal planes... the corrugations are intended to lessen the friction between the sole and the wood. Minor shelf wear to cover, otherwise excellent condition. Price: $32.00 55. "The New Tinsmith's Helper and Pattern Book". by Hall V. Williams. Scientific Book Corporation. 1927 expanded edition of the 1917 text. 5x7. 458 pgs. Ex-lib Cloth SB cover. Profusely illustrated with measured patterns for architectural sheet metal work. Included numerous reference tables and of course the everpresent handy recipes and useful tables. If you work sheet metal, or just have a hankering to pound some tin, you need this book. There is even one short chapter on slate roofing for those recalcitrant homeowners who could not see their way to new and improved materials. Price: $36.00 56. "The Modern House-Carpenters Companion and Builder's Guide, by W. A. Sylvester, Third Thousand, Enlarged." HB. 5x7.5. 207 pgs. Boston, The Old Corner Bookstore. 1883. When house carpenters where still constructing post and beam along with dimensional lumber. All the geometry and hints you need to make it as a house carpenter. Numerous drawings depicting geometry and framing techniques. An invaluable reference for the period house carpenter. Cloth cover with gold lettering. Well worn cover. Interior pages good without foxing. Center page signatures loose but intact. Price: $22.00. 57. Steel Square Pocket Book" by Dwight L. Stoddard. 4x6. 181 pgs. 1929. HB. Self descriptive title. Cover navy cloth, clean and unmarked. Rear cover folded once. Interior excellent. Price: $8.00 58. "Exercises in Surveying". by John Clayton Tracy, C.E.. First Edition, 1909. 5x7.5. 168 pgs. HB. Green cloth cover. Trade school of surveying exercises. Exellent condition throughout. Price: $16.00. 59. "How to Work with Tools and Wood for the home workshop". Stanley Rule & Level Plant. First edition,1927. Navy cloth cover with gold lettering. Minor shelf wear to spine. Small stain on spine. Interior very good. Price: $ 24.00 60. "The Stanley Plane, A History and Descriptive Inventory" by Alvin Sellens. EAIA book 1975. Fifth printing 1982. Do I need to tell you what this is? Cover and interior excellent. DJ slightly stained, with small tears at top and bottom of spine, 1 inch tear on rear and front front. Price: $53.00 61. "Practical Treatise on Milling and Milling Machines" Brown &Sharpe Mfg. Co. 6x9.25. 381 pgs. HB. 1942. Navy cloth cover with gold lettering. Cover very good. Interior excellent. 1942 edition of the 1939 text. Complete with 100 pgs of reference tables necessary for the operation of milling machines. Price: $32.00 62. "The Great Industries of the United States, Being an Historical Summary of the Origin, Growth, and Perfection of the Chief Industrial Arts of this Country, by Horace Greeley, Leon Case, Edward Howland, John B. Gough, Philip Ripley, F. B. Perkins, J. B. Lyman, Albert Brisbane, Rev. E.E. Hall and other eminent writers upon political and social economy, mechanics, manufactures, etc. etc. with over 500 Illustrations". 1872. 6x9. 1304 pgs. Cover very well worn with wear on spine and edges, faded gold lettering. First and last pages worn on edges. Interior very good with minimal foxing. 155 forms of industry and manufacturing are covered... from saws to files to billiards to combs to linen fire hoses to buttons. I rarely see this book with a good cover. I can only surmise that it always received heavy reading. One of those rare first hand accounts of late 19th Century industry, large and small. Price: $22.00 ............................. Reprints... All are out of print. ............................... Note... there are duplicates of some items, so please order by the number. I have more than one copy of a few reprints, so I'll sell them in order of first come first served until they are all gone. Also, some reprints had been mailed to the association member. I have placed a blank white label over the orginal white mailing label in order to preserve their privacy. .......................................... 63. REPRINT (2 copies available) "Steel Carpenter's Squares, Eagle Square Manufacturing Co.,South Shaftsbury, Vt." Undated. MWTC-A reprint July, 1991. 31 pgs, 4" x 7.74". Stanley bought the controlling interest in the Eagle Square Co in 1916, thereby sequering the carpenters square market. This catalog predates the Stanley involvement. Excellent condition. Price: $8.00 64. REPRINT "Otis A. Smith Manufacturers of Firearms and Hardware Specialities, Rockfall, Conn., 1905 Trade Catalog". Roger K. Smith publisher, 9/84. 27 pg, 6.5" x 3.5". Maker of Fales patent plow plane, among other interesting patented items. Excellent condition. Price" $12.00 65. REPRINT "18th Annual Catalogue of the Winnie Machine Works... MoneyMaking Machinery, Hoop machinery... Chicago, Ill". Undated. MWTC-A reprint 5/91. 6" x 9.25". 42 pgs. Coopers machinery catalog from turn of the century. There must be some old coopering machinery out there somewhere! Slightly dog eared in the lower right hand corner, otherwise very good condition. Price: $10.00 66. REPRINT (2 copies available) "Diamond Edge Planes. Shapleigh hardware co.. 1992 Phil Whitby reprint of the 1927 pocket catalog. 4"x7". 15 pgs. Two color cover. Excellent condition. Price: $6.00 67. REPRINT (4 copies available) "Millers Falls Co." pocket catalog 1992 Phil Whitby reprint of the 1878 pocket catalog 4.25"x7". 48 pgs. Pink cover with gold lettering and graphics. Excellent condition. Price: $8.00 ............................. Tools ............................. 68. Plumb Victory brand carpenters broad hatchet head (maybe that ain't what it's called. It's late and I'm too tired to look it up.) This is the type with one flat side. Head only with the handle broken off and still in the axe hole. 4.5" edge. Some surface corrosion that can be cleaned off. Handle it, sharpen it and hack away. Price: $16.00 That's all folks. Gary Roberts groberts@s... Boston, MA...Antique tools, Art Pottery, Hong Kong cinema, what else is there? ---- Start of Message 25262 ---- From: Gary Roberts Date: 1997-09-01 04:23:00 Subject: FS: Toolemera Press, Stanley Sawset September 1997 Toolemera Press. Each Toolemera Press reproduction is a high quality photocopy of an original tool related catalog, book, periodical or piece of ephemera. The reproduction is made with matching paper, in as close to the original size, layout and binding as possible. Any variations from the original will be described. Each copy will be marked Toolemera Press and dated. Each Toolemera Press issue will be shipped within two weeks upon receipt of your check. International purchasers please note (including Canada and Mexico): International Money Orders or US currency preferred. After I receive your email order, I will contact you if there is a substantial difference in mailing costs. Dealer inquiries invited. I can supply some titles in quantity at discount for resale. Resellers are requested to sell at original price. Ordering information: Send an email message to groberts@s.... Include the words Toolemera Press in the subject field. Please include your full name, email address and preferred mailing address. Indicate the title(s) and quantity that you are ordering. Checks or money orders are cheerfully accepted. Send payment to: Gary Roberts 1077 South Street Roslindale, MA 02131-2321 ....................................................................... Title: "Stanley Pistol Grip Saw Sets Nos. 42, 43 and 442". C. 1930. Instructions for use of all three saw sets, includes instructions for use of "Attachment for Circular Saws" and brief description of each tool. Description: Single page, text and graphics both sides. Folded to make 12 separate pages. Original 9" x 12" on cream paper. Reproduction 8 1/2" x 11" on cream paper. Price including postage: $3.50 ................................................................... Back issues available (please email for full descriptive listing): 1. Disston Pocket catalog C. 1901. Price: $7.00 2. Langdon Mitre Box set C. 1900. Price: $5.55 3. Bartholomew Brace pocket catalog C. 1900. (Pre - Stanley catalog) Price: $7.00 4. "Yankee" Fine Mechanics Tools and "Yankee - Handyman" Household Tools. No. 15 Dealers Costs - Suggested Retail Prices. Temporary Catalog. January, 15, 1947. Price: $4.00 5. "Suggestions On The Care Of Saws By C. C. Taintor, Inventor Of The Taintor Saw Set". Taintor Mfg. Company, 113 Chambers Street, New York. 1908 Price: $7.00 6. "Stanley Improved Labor Saving Carpenters' Tools including 'Bailey Adjustable Planes' ". Stanley Rule & Level Co. New Britain, Conn., U.S.A. Price: $6.00. 7. "Catalogue and Price List of Genuine D. R. Barton Edge Tools made only by Mack Tool Co., Inc, 100 Brown's Race, Rochester, N.Y. (DR Barton stamp), All tools of our make are stamped as above. We do not make tools with special brands for anyone. September 1st, 1922". Price: $8.00 8. "Emmert Vises, Illustrated Facts", published by The Emmert Manfg. Co., Waynesboro, PA." C. 1901. Price: $6.00 9. "Buck Bros. Edge tool catalog." 1894, Price: $6.00 Gary Roberts groberts@s... Boston, MA...Antique tools, Art Pottery, Hong Kong cinema, what else is there? ---- Start of Message 25263 ---- From: Date: 1997-09-01 04:58:00 Subject: FS MISC. TOOLS, SAWS, LEVELS, BORING, LITERATURE, ETC. Hi, Gentle Galoots! A big THANK YOU to all of you who purchased from me last month. The house was looking almost neat when I finally got everything shipped. Of course, then I took the proceeds and went on a buying spree. What fun! * Means and item is NEW to the list $$ Means available now at a REDUCED PRICE ** Means an item has been TENTATIVELY SOLD Please be sure to see my other lists for more tools, and Happy Hunting! MISC. TOOLS **E.C. Stearns & Co., Syracuse, NY, Saw set for large saws, with beautiful deep brown patina. Good+. A gentleman contacted me about buying this but AOL vaporized his message while I had it set to "Keep as New." If you're that gentleman, this G+ tool is yours for $12 if you'll contact me again. *E.C.Stearns & Co., Syracuse, NY, U.S.A., Number 13 Adjustable Sole Shave. A unique design with a flexible sole which can be adjusted as on a Stanley #13 compass plane to work convex, flat or concave surfaces. This example is in very clean condition with most of it's japan and a very beautiful brass lever cap with nice crisp lettering. Very scarce, Good+, $125. *The Davis Level & Tool Co. ornate 18" cast iron level & plumb. This is the later style, a transition between Davis and Robinson. Vials are all good, missing some nickel on the level vial. Brass plaque on one side reads "The Davis Level & Tool Co./Springfield, Mass," and another plaque on the other side reads "PATd MAY 29, 1877, 1883. Some scratches on brass plaques but fully readable and other wise nice. A very nice and displayable level, with absolutely no chips in the ornate iron or rails. Age patination to exposed iron but the original machining marks are clearly visible. Good+, $185. *Geo. Bishop (No. 10?) Double-edged Adjustable Back Saw, 1906 patent. Unique 12 inch saw with a combination "back" and "depth stop" that slides up and down the blade to set any depth. Both long edges of the blade have teeth, one looks like 14 tpi crosscut, and the other looks like 9 1/2 tpi. Handle is very fine grained and may be apple or another fruitwood. Top tip was chipped long ago but is hardly noticeable. Nice chip carving. Blade and back are evenly patinated in a deep brown/charcoal color and would clean easily if you felt it necessary (I didn't). A very scarce and desireable saw. Good to Good+, $70. *Brass-backed tenon saw with 12" blade, 12 tpi. "E. Garlick & Son/Cast Steel Warranted/Sheffield" plus the Lynx face logo on the heavy brass back. Beech handle is an older-looking design and is very comfortable in use. "Lynx Brand" Etching on the blade a bit faint but still mostly readable. A beautiful and fully useable saw, Good+, $58. *N/M Speed Indicator, probably c. late 1800's, nickel plated brass body with brass indicator dial, needle and slide-on shaft tip. More showy than the equivalents from Starrett. Brass showing through nickel in a couple of places, but easily Good+. $25. **Wooden Vise Screw, fine grained hardwood. Threaded shaft is 2 3/16" diameter and the threaded area is 20" long. Head is 5" long and 3 3/4" in diameter. Overall length is 27 1/4". A few minor chips to threads, some tight shrinkage cracks here and there shouldn't affect function. A rough edge on the outside of the nut won't affect function. The screwed-on end of the (hickory?) handle is chipped but can easily be replaced. Neat and useable for a working vise. Good, $25. *Pocket Level, 3 1/2" long, similar to Stanley 41, but I'm not sure this one is Stanley. Japan is 80% or better, brass is good, and overall Good, $10. *Mid-West Tool Collector's Association 1982 souvenir ash tray, in the shape of the state of Illinois, with a hand adze sculpted in the middle. About 10" long, probably ceramic, still in original shrink wrap. A great place to store those odd small parts. New, $5. $$29 Millers Falls spiral ratchet screwdriver, only 8 1/2" long without bit. Includes one straight bit. Deep red hardwood handle. Nice, small and clean. Good+, was $15, now $12. $$N/M Rosewood level, 9 inches long with full brass top plate marked "NORTH BRITISH RAILWAY" and "Warranted Correct." I'd guess it was made by Preston based on the nicely brass-plated side views, but it's just a guess. Good, was $40, now $35. $$ N/M Keuffel & Esser Log Caliper with 21-inch jaws that provide measurement capacity to 17 inches. Beam graduated to 36 inches in 10ths of an inch. Some wear, some stains and nicks, unusual roughness on the brass nuts that secure the top jaw to the beam(looks like they were intentional ground on for some reason), but lots of original finish and in nice-looking condition. "Keuffel & Esser Co." in circle around "N.Y." plus winged lion logo over "trade mark." Good, was $35, now $30. N/M Small saw, probably from a boy's tool set c. late 19th century. Nice early shape to the open handle, 14-inch blade has a shallow bend in top edge (which could be hammered out easily), otherwise in very good shape and ready to complete your old tool kit. Good, $15. 120 W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner brass-backed dovetail saw with 8" blade. Brass back has the company name embossed (not stamped) & the model number & the elephant logo, and the blade is etched "Silver Steel" and "Tested for Hardness" on either side of another elephant logo. Beech handle has some wear along the edges. Not real old, but a beautiful and fully useable tool. Good+, $50. BORING *N/M Pretty little hand drill just 10 3/4" long. I think the spoke pattern in the wheel is a Goodell-Pratt design, but I can't find any illustrations to confirm it. Golden brown hardwood handle contains 3 original bits. Cute little 1/4" capacity 3-jaw chuck will hold even needle-size bits. Frame & chuck nickel plated and should clean up beautifully with a light treatment of a good metal polish to reveal that most of the nickel remains. Wooden crank knob has a long paint drip which will clean off. Handle is a bit loose and will need a little help to be tight again, but otherwise this is a lovely little drill for the user or collector. Good+, $20. *2101 Yankee 10 in. brace, WWII model painted black. Very heavy duty chuck with extremely smooth ratchet--probably the best design ever conceived. This one is also marked Bell System. Was purchased from a stash of WWII surplus and except for minor scuffs and chips to the paint, is new and unused. Fine, $30. *921 Stanley 8 in. brace, little used. Concealed ratchet design is elegant and easy to use. Cocobolo pad and sweep handle. Most of the original nickel is here and clean. Jaws are in excellent condition. A great user in collector condition. Near Fine, $35. *923 Stanley 10 in. brace. Part of the WWII miltary surplus stash, typical scuffs & very minor spotting to the bright nickel, otherwise new and unused. Nice heavy-duty chuck, cocobolo pad and sweep handle, Fine, $40. *Craftsman Expanding bit with interchangeable Long and Short cutters, for drilling holes from about 7/8" to 3". Worm gear adjustment. Not part of the WWII stash. Probably used once but still sharp. One only, $6 NOTE: The following bits are WWII military surplus, new and unused. Most are still covered in cosmoline, some may have light surface rust but should clean easily. *9/16" Twist bit with brace shank, two available, $1.50 each. *7/16" Twist bit with brace shank, one available, $1.50 each. *9/32" Twist bit with brace shank, marked Morse, U.S.A., 6 available, $1.50 each. $$12 Miller's Falls (marked only No. 12) Barber's Improved non-ratcheting brace with alligator jaws. Pad appears to be lignum vitae, with beautiful grain, and has some very tight checking in the very top which shouldn't affect use. Sweep handle looks like rosewood and is fine. Lots of shiny original nickel remains, chuck has nearly all its nickel, and looks great. Needs only a gentle cleaning. A very nice brace at a bargain price. Good+, was $15, now $12. $$ N/M Miller's Falls Universal Angular Bit Stock, similar to model 109 shown in the 1915 Millers Falls catalog, with Barber chuck. This device fits into the chuck of your brace, the bit or other tool fits into the chuck of this device, you adjust this thing to the desired angle (it has a universal joint in the middle). Then, by virtue of your highly-developed contortionist skills, you are now able to use this clumsy combination to drill in areas where it might otherwise be impossible (and probably still will be without three hands). This one has seen use (probably by a circus act) and is missing most of its original japan and about half the nickel on the chuck, but it's a very neat tool and a curiosity. Mount it in your corner brace for a truly mind-boggling contraption. Good, was $30, now $25. PARTS *46 Main body only, early japanned type, no other parts or front knob. Rosewood handle has beautiful grain and only minor scratches and a couple very small nicks. Maybe 50% japanning remains, exposed iron has thin surface rust but very little pitting will remain when cleaned. A good part, $15. 45 Fence for Type 4 or 5, c. 1890 - 1894 or so. Most of the original nickel is there, but a little dull. No thumbscrews, fence only. Good+, $10. 45 Partial set of cutters, bottom of original box only with 15 cutters, 7 straight, 7 beading, and one tongue. Pine box was repaired with one nail at each end long ago. Cutters need only the slightest cleaning to rate Fine. Good++, $120. 45 Partial set of cutters, full box of 10, 9 straight and one bead. Original box has top and 30% of the label. Cutters need light cleaning to rate Fine. Good+, $70. BOOKS AND REFERENCE MATERIALS *54 Stanley Tools catalog, "Do It Better with Stanley Tools," 1954. Full line of Stanley hand tools, planes, rules, levels, braces, etc. 46 pages. Fine, $35. *77 Stanley, original instructions for the Doweling Machine. Fine, $20. *The Stanley Tool Guide, copyright 1941. Large 11" X 12 1/4" format, 32 pages. A little dirty, slight even yellowing and slight wrinkling of front cover corners, otherwise better than Good. $25. *Keuffel & Esser Co. "1948 Solar Ephemeris and Other Tables and Data useful to the Surveyor." Pocket sized, 6"X 3 1/4" and 112 pages long. A fascinating reference with full descriptions of the operations of the Internal Focusing Telescope, the Transit, the Engineers Y Level, the Dumpy Level, the Tilting Dumping Level, and the Plane Table Alidade. Also included are chapters on Celestial Observations, Solar Ephemeris, Stadia Measurements, Magnetic Declinations, trig tables and many other tables. Title page a little wrinkled but cover and rest of book is Fine. $15. *Stanley, "How to Use the Stanley Rafter Square" instruction booklet, 46 pages 6 1/4" X 3 1/4". Two copies available, one with date code 3-65 which is slightly yellowed and a few very small and very light stains on cover, otherwise Fine, $4; and another with date code 7-62 very clean, white pages, couple of very minor nicks in edge of cover and slightest bit of wrinkling, otherwise Fine, $6. *The American Axe and Tool Co. advertisement for "The Red Warrior Axe" a little over 8" X 12" from a hardware catalog or magazine dated February 16, 1895. Has a full-sized engraving of the axe head and lists the brands of axes, hatchets and broad axes manufactured by the company, including Blood, Hunt, Lippincott, Red Warrior, Mann, Hurd, Peerless, Jamestown, Romer, Francis, Sharps, Underhill, and Stewart. Also lists other edge tools manufactured by the concern. Very light yellowing, otherwise Fine and already matted in black for a 12 X 16 frame. $6. *Starrett catalog No. 27, dated 1955. 462 pages showing the full line. Fine condition, $15. TERMS: Standard Galoot T's & C's: I send you the tool, if you like it, you pay me for the tool plus shipping. If you don't like the tool, simply pay the return shipping to return it in the identical condition as when it left my shop. E-mail me for more info on any tool. Thanks for shopping and please check out my other lists for Rules, Saws, Levels, Boring Tools, Literature, Etc. Don Boyer dnbyr@a... ---- Start of Message 25264 ---- From: Date: 1997-09-01 04:58:00 Subject: FS BOXED TOOLS, MISC. STANLEY, & CHISELS Hi, Gentle Galoots! A big THANK YOU to all of you who purchased from me last month. The house was looking almost neat when I finally got everything shipped. Of course, then I took the proceeds and went on a buying spree. What fun! * Means and item is NEW to the list $$ Means available now at a REDUCED PRICE ** Means an item has been TENTATIVELY SOLD Please be sure to see my other lists for more tools, and Happy Hunting! BOXED STANLEY TOOLS *N/M Stanley 150th Anniversary Marking Gauge, Cherry with laser engraved Stanley 150th anniversary markings, in original yellow box with green label on end and engraving of the old Stanley factory on top. New++, $60. *N/M Stanley 150th Anniversary Dovetail Saw, brass back stamped with Stanley logo and illustration of factory engraved on blade. Yellow box has green label on end and factory illustration on top. Certificate of authenticity in box. New++, $55. $$59 Doweling Jig in c.1970s box with all parts and instructions. Box excellent with original tape that held it closed for shipping. New+, was $30, now $25. $$ 75 Bullnose rabbet plane mint in a c.1940s box . Box has a couple of separated corners and part of back edge, but otherwise excellent. New+, was $55, now $50. $$ 1995 Carbide Tipped Blades in c.1935- box, one cutter (box originally held six) in plastic pouch with original instructions, box corners repaired from inside with narrow brown paper tape which can be removed without damage to box, small crack in top and old price in grease pencil on top, otherwise box good+ or better. These blades were for Stanley 199/299 type utility knives. New+, was $15, now $10. 66 Hand beader in a c.1920s box. Tool has most of its nickel, straight fence only, no cutters. Box has had several edges carefully repaired from inside with narrow brown paper tape which can be removed without damage to box, has full label and is otherwise excellent. Box contains small fragment of original instructions. Fine, $80. OTHER BOXED TOOLS **"Plain Brass Plumb Bob/K&E Co./6482/(old no. N6491)/1 Only 14 oz." on the label of this green box containing a brand new brass bob marked only "GLOBE/Made in U.S.A./8." Box has some worn spots where white shows through the green, label has just a little roughness on bottom edge, otherwise very good. Original piece of wood fitted inside box to prevent point of bob from piercing the cardboard. New+, $25. *140 Lufkin 3" Toolmaker's Dividers, one pair brand new in a box that originally held two. Dividers are packed in their original envelope and the box contains the pink "Packing Memorandum." Tool perfect, box has original price printed very small on the label, otherwise box is perfect. New+, $20. *N/M Ideal Tool Co., Rochester, NY Machinist's Indicator, the predecessor to the modern dial indicator. Box label describes the contents as a double scale indicator, but tool is a single scale indicator, from 0 to 10 (1,000ths?). Included in box is a two-sided printed piece describing various accessories for Ideal indicators. Tool has minor surface rust which will easily clean. Box lid has label full length of top with one stain, one end of box bottom loose, otherwise box Good+. Fine+, $20. $$ 226 Carlson Chief tape measure, by Carlson & Sullivan, Monrovia, California. 6-foot rule has apparently never been used. Nice D-shaped cast metal case, tape is graduated in sixteenths, plus thirty-seconds on one edge to 6 inches. Graduations are applied directly to the spring steel, with no paint background. I'd guess from appearance this was manufactured in the 50's. Box is very slightly dirty and has one corner very slightly mashed and a slight crease near one back edge, but is otherwise excellent, with red background, black illustration and type, and white accents. A nice and affordable addition to that tape or California tool collection. New+, was $15, now $10. 33 Millers Falls block plane (like Stanley 101), in original box. Full label with light scuffing, corners of top separated and red paper missing from top of box, otherwise good. New+, $50. OTHER STANLEY TOOLS *2 Stanley bronze trammels, Type 1, early ornate castings. A little wear to the surfaces of the bronze, steel points sharpened to a conical shape, but well done, otherwise very nice, with the beautiful Victorian design in the castings. No pencil clasp, but the oft-missing pressure shoes are both present. One of Stanley's showiest items. Good describes the condition and the deal at $70. *36 Machinist's level, smallest 6" size. Probably WWII production with brass vials and vial covers that appear to have never been nickelled. Tiny hairline fracture in brass of main vial nearly invisible and does not in any way affect function. Maybe 50% of the original japan remains, but doesn't look bad. Needs gentle cleaning. Scarce in this size, and except as noted, Good+, $40. *42 Saw set. A little missing paint and _very_ light surface oxidation in those spots w/o paint, but working parts are all very clean with nearly all original nickel. Fully useable and will clean up easily to Good+, and except for the missing paint, Fine. $10 *51 Spoke Shave, c. 1935-. An excellent example of one of Stanley's most popular models. Needs a gentle cleaning but other wise nearly all the japan is here, the blade has dirt & greasy sawdust on it but looks like it will clean to nearly new condition. Only real apology is a little deformation to the slot in the screw that serves as the lever cap fulcrum, but should dress easily with a few light hammer strokes and a file. The knurled lever cap thumb screw is fine. Should clean to overall Fine condition, $20. $$ N/M Unusual small wire brush with flat 7" long wooden handle stamped "THE STANLEY WORKS/NEW BRITAIN, CONN." in large capital letters. Probably utilitarian but possibly an advertising piece. Missing one bundle of wire and has some stains on handle, but it's the only one I've ever seen. Fair, was $10, now $5. $$180 Stanley 18 inch augur bit extension. Very minor spotting to nickel here and there, otherwise has seen little use and Fine, was $18, now $15. $$ 237 24" Aluminum level, first type c. 1911-1919. Needs gentle cleaning, as they generally do, but not much. Missing a bit of the black paint around the middle but nearly all the nickel remains on the vials and Eclipse vial covers. Very scarce and at least Good+, was $50, now $40. 70 Stanley Defiance Screwdriver, 10" shank, 16 1/2" overall. Notched-rectangle logo on ferrule and STANLEY stamped in gold on red-stained handle. Minor scuffs and surface rust on shank, toolbox scuffs on handle, otherwise Good+, $10. CHISELS *1221 Set of Four (4) Defiance by Stanley chisels, including 2", 7/8", 5/8", and 1/4" widths. Lengths from 12 1/2" to 14". Handles are a bit scuffed from storage but the blades have been protected by waxy cosmoline coating and are shiny new underneath. This model is not listed in Walter, but appearance is similar to model 720, except handle is lacquered, not red-stained. WWII surplus, New and unused, only one set available, $80. TERMS: Standard Galoot T's & C's: I send you the tool, if you like it, you pay me for the tool plus shipping. If you don't like the tool, simply pay the return shipping to return it in the identical condition as when it left my shop. E-mail me for more info on any tool. Thanks for shopping and please check out my other lists for Rules, Saws, Levels, Boring Tools, Literature, Etc. Don Boyer dnbyr@a... ---- Start of Message 25265 ---- From: Date: 1997-09-01 04:58:00 Subject: FS RULES, GAUGES, BEVELS, ZIG ZAGS, ETC. Hi, Gentle Galoots! A big THANK YOU to all of you who purchased from me last month. The house was looking almost neat when I finally got everything shipped. Of course, then I took the proceeds and went on a buying spree. What fun! * Means and item is NEW to the list $$ Means available now at a REDUCED PRICE ** Means an item has been TENTATIVELY SOLD Please be sure to see my other lists for more tools, and Happy Hunting! BOXWOOD RULES AND OTHER MEASURING DEVICES *27 Stanley 2-foot 2-fold boxwood rule with brass slide, Gunter's scales, and drafting scales, type 2, SR&L logo with no "U.S.A." An early example, perhaps c. 1860's, in exceptional condition for age. Was carefully cleaned and well done by previous owner to reveal clear graduations on both sides and both outside edges, and a beautiful golden color to the boxwood. Only detraction is a small chip in the boxwood on both sides of the rule at one of the two edge pins, a common occurrence in these thin rules, otherwise Good+, $150. *62 1/2 Stanley narrow full-bound 2-foot 4-fold boxwood rule. A scarce model in very clean condition, with the pre-1920 all-capital letter logo. Color is very light, and except for a few very tiny marks here & there, appearance is about as clean as rules come. Missing face pins and slightest bit of spring, otherwise Good++ or better, $65. *66 1/2 Stanley 3-foot 4-fold boxwood rule, c. 1935-'57, New old stock, $25. *N/M Parallel rule, 6 inches long, ebony with brass. Needs only the gentlest cleaning. Should clean up to near New condition. A small, beautiful tool that displays well. Fine, $20. *N/M "Sanders & Sons 228 High Holborn" on one edge of this boxwood brewer's proof rule with double slides. Basically a slide rule which brewer's apparently used to calculate the alcohol content of spirits and to perform other calculations. Both 2-1/16" wide sides of this 12-1/2" long rule are covered with scales, as is the edge not marked with the maker's or distributor's imprint. Beautiful light yellow color, most of the original finishes, brass a little darkened but fine, only the most minor surface scuffs, otherwise an impressive old calculating rule and Fine+, $125. *N/M Rabone & Sons, Birmingham, 2-foot 2-fold blacksmith's rule in solid brass. Marked with what I believe to be an older mark, not recent manufacture by any means. The entire surface is evenly patinated brown and shows little wear, with all graduations very sharp. Hanging hole drilled neatly through end of each leg (the holes line up when the rule is closed) and do not detract to my eye, but otherwise I'd have rated this one Fine. I have resisted the urge to polish this, but if you chose to do so, it would be quite impressive, even to those who don't always understand the appeal of tools. Good+, $35. $$N/M Stanley's Engine Divided Scale, Great Turnstile Holborn London, on two boxwood or satinwood scale rules, approx. 12 1/4 inches long, with both edges beveled and graduated. One says .005 metre and the other .006 metre, apparently referring to the scale the rule is intended for. I believe these were used by surveyors and map makers. The .005 rule has a couple of very, very minor edge nicks, otherwise I would rate these New, as they are very light in color, with no wear of any kind. They've probably lived together all their lives, so I'm offering them as a pair so as to not break up their happy relationship. Fine+, was $28, now $22. $$ 36 Stephens & Co., Riverton, Ct. U.S. Standard, 1-foot 2-fold rule, bevel, level, inclinometer, etc. The one everyone wants. Nice and clean with only minor toolbox scuffing, a few very minor stains, blade is very bright with only a bit of very minor evidence of old rust (most blades on these are pitted all over). A good one, especially for a rule made between 1858 and 1901. Good+, was $250, now $225. $$ 8152 Lufkin 24-inch curved tailor's rule, maple. A neat-looking tool. Good+, was $30, now $25. $$7121 Lufkin 3-foot maple rule graduated on one side in eighths of an inch and on the other in fractions of a yard. Only 1 inch wide. Marked "N.Y.C. & PENNA./SERIAL NO. E2/APPROVED TYPE 35l". I'd guess pre-WWII, with nice golden color and only a few minor stains and dings here & there. A little dirty but should clean up nicely. Good+, was $25, now $20. $$8152 Lufkin 24-inch curved tailor's rule, maple. A neat-looking tool. Good+, was $30, now $25. $$N/M Keuffel & Esser Log Caliper with 21-inch jaws that provide measurement capacity to 17 inches. Beam graduated to 36 inches in 10ths of an inch. Some wear, some stains and nicks, unusual roughness on the brass nuts that secure the top jaw to the beam(looks like they were intentional ground on for some reason), but lots of original finish and in nice-looking condition. "Keuffel & Esser Co." in circle around "N.Y." plus winged lion logo over "trade mark." Good, was $35, now $30. 163 Stanley 1-foot 4-fold round joint rule, c. 1941-1943 only. These are brand new and unused WWII surplus, and are the variation which are natural wood (not painted). Six available. New, $20 each. 751 Lufkin Rule Co., Made in U.S.A., equivalent to Stanley 61, 2-foot 4-fold square joint. Golden orange out, golden in, a few numbers on outside faint, few minor paint splatters should clean off. Good+, $22. 1391 Keuffel & Esser Co., N.Y., 12" scale rule, both edges beveled, 1" and 1/2" scales one edge, 1/4" and 1/8" on the other. I can't figure out if it's boxwood or satinwood, or something else. It's a very pretty golden yellow color. In addition to the circular logo with Keuffel & Esser Co. around N.Y., this one has the impressive winged lion trademark. Good++ or better, $20. SQUARES, BEVELS, GAUGES, ETC. This list includes some newly added very scarce and excellent squares, which you will probably not want to use but will be very proud to display since they are in great collector condition. *1 Stanley Winterbottom's Patent Combined Try & Mitre Square, small 6" size. Type 2 with cast iron handle & Stanley cast into one side. Japanned handle, which is correct for the late 1930's-40's, but the blade is blued instead of nickel plated, so this is probably WWII vintage. A scarce square, unused, acquired in a stash of military surplus tools. Blued blade shows some minor scuffing from storage, a little roughness on both sides of the end, and one narrow band of shallow pitting, but these are minor defects. Stanley logo and size stamped in the graduated blade. Handle is nearly perfect, missing only one fleck of japan less than 1/8", very minor scuffing from storage. Otherwise near Fine. Good++, $45. *2 Stanley Winterbottom's Patent Combined Try & Mitre Square, small 6" size. Early, Type 2 c. 1888 - 1897. Steel blade retains some of the original blueing and has only the most minor scuffing and is excellent for age. Brass-trimmed rosewood handle is stamped "PATEN___" (end of word faint) in an arch over "APRIL 16, 1872," which was the patent for the construction, and in a circle, "PATENTED JUNE 29, '69" for the mitre design. The cleanest example I've seen of a pre-1900 square. Good+, $65 *10 Stanley Inlaid Try Square, Type 1, c. 1888 -1897, 6" blade. Cast iron frame with rosewood infill, steel blade. Originally designated No. 1, this square was redesigned with a slightly heavier cast iron frame in 1888 and redesignated No. 10, according to Walter. This is the first type of the 10, and is in excellent condition for its age. Except for three small dents in the rosewood on one side that look like they were made by BB's, the wood is very clean with only minor scuffs. The side with the two brass screws is particularly nice. The steel blade has some pitting near the end on the side opposite the brass screws, but the other side has only minor patination and a faint but early "J" Stanley trademark. Display this side and you'll see the best wood, too. Rare and excellent for age. Better than Good, $65. *18 Stanley Eureka Flush T Bevel gauge, nickel plated cast iron with 8" nickel-plated steel blade. This is the best bevel design, with the screw that tightens the blade on the _end_ of the handle where it never interferes with the work. This example has some minor scratches on the blade from storage and being opened and closed over the years, but it has nearly all its original bright nickel and appearance is near new. Fine, $35 *20 Stanley try square, c. late 30's/early 40's, WWII surplus, excellent condition with only the most minor scuffs from storage. No signs of use. 8" blade with white paint-filled graduations on blued steel surface creates a nice effect. Stanley logo and model number on blade, plus Stanley logo stamped in gold on rosewood handle. These don't come much better. Fine, $30. *25 Stanley Sliding T Bevel, 6" blade. Early model with blade marked "STANLEY/Rule & Level Co./New Britain, Conn/U.S.A./PAT. 9-6-04 (this was the patent for the improved locking lever). Blade shows minor rust damage over most of its surface but it will look very good with a cursory cleaning. Handle is beautifully-grained Brazilian rosewood. Brass trim is darkened, but shows little wear. A much better than average example of a very handy tool. Good (but really better), $20. *25 Stanley Sliding T Bevel, 8" blade. Blade is marked with the c. 1935- logo and the 8 in. size. Blade has very minor dirt and surface rust and should clean very well. Handle is gorgeous, wonderfully-grained Brazilian rosewood, stamped STANLEY on one side. One drop of splattered paint should easily clean off. Good (but definitely better), $25. *122 Stanley adjustable square with level & scribe, c. 30's or 40's. Very good condition with 90% japan. 9" rule is in very good shape with very thin brown/gray patination. A good one, complete and fully useable, in a handy size. Good+, $20. *N/M Gorgeous owner-made mahogany marking gauge with Mother-of-pearl inlay in the face of the fence. Extra-long beam is 11 1/8". Point is sharpened to a knife edge. Thumb screw has very tiny ray flecks and may be a fruitwood(??). I found this in New England, and I suspect "J.B.," who stamped his initials on the fence, was probably a ship carpenter. A particularly beautiful tool. Good+ or better, $45. *N/M Small mahogany marking gauge with wedge-lock fence. Stem is a 7/16" rod with a flatted side where the wedge rides. C.N.Moore stamped his name neatly on the fence. Nail for a point. Found this one in England, and it's a cutie. Handmade and Good+, $15. *N/M Early beech marking gauge, head affixed by thumb screw. Stem is neatly hand graduated to 8 inches in early-looking figures. A couple of tight shrinkage cracks on one edge of the fence, and a little wear from use, but well made and possibly a factory product. A nice, early and obviously hand-stamped tool. Good, $25. *61 Stanley beech marking gauge, Sweetheart mark. A little dirty, one chip from bottom edge of thumbscrew head, otherwise few signs of use. Should clean up to very good condition. Useful and affordable, Good at least, $8. *61 Stanley beech marking gauge, Made in U.S.A. logo. Very light in color, and except for a stain on one corner of the head, a couple of very small nicks in the thumbscrew, and the number 45 marked in crayon on the bottom of the fence, this will probably clean to near new condition. May have been used once, but little evidence. Good+, $10. 16 Stanley Try Mitre "Square," blade lightly pitted, nickel on handle dull. Appearance could be improved. Fair, $15. ZIG ZAG RULES (Worth reading even if you don't think you like zig zags) $$ 26N Master Rule Mfg. Co. Inc., 6-foot 12-fold zig zag rule, black graduations on white painted background. WWII surplus. Minor scuffing from storgage, otherwise new and unusued. Fine, was $25, now $20. $$ N/M Master Rule Mfg. Co. Inc., N.Y.C., 6-foot 12-fold zig zag, black graduations on yellow paint. WWII military surplus. Joints appear to be made of aluminum and they have oxidized a bit--need a drop of oil to restore smooth operation. Otherwise New and unused, was $30, now $25. $$ 072W Columbia, Eagle Rule Mfg. Corp., N.Y., 6-foot 12-section zig zag, black graduations on white paint background. Brass-plated steel "coil spring" joints have rusted in storage and will need to be cleaned. A little minor dirtiness from storage, otherwise New and unused. Good+, was $25, now $20. $$ 524 The Lufkin Rule Co./Saginaw, Mich., U.S.A. Doyle Log Scale, 4-foot 8-fold with retractible hook on one end. Black graduations on yellow painted background. This one has seen some use and has minor scuffing, but is an older one in very good condition, marked one side in sixteenths of an inch, and on the other with Doyle's log scales for determining the number of board feet in a log of given length and diameter. Good+, was $30, now $25. $$ 524 Lufkin Doyle Log Scale rule, four-foot/eight-section zig-zag type rule, with board measure scales, brass joints, and brass hook on one end. Similar to above but more recent manufacture. New, was $25, now $20. $$ 906 Stanley 6-foot 12-section zig zag c. 1930's, black graduations on yellow painted background, concealed joints. "English" format (reads left-to-right as opposed to American convention of right-to-left). A very scarce model made for a short time. WWII military surplus, absolutely New and perfect, even the ends of the wood sections, which are not painted, are pristine and not the slightest bit dirty--they look freshly trimmed. Amazing. Every Stanley collection needs one zig zag, but I know you've had trouble finding one in clean condition (or any at all). I am pleased to have a few available. New, New, New, $50 each. $$ 966 Lufkin "Two-Way" rule, reads right-to-left on one side, left-to-right on the other. Six-foot/twelve-section zig-zag, nearly new condition. Fine+, was $15, now $10. $$ 1066D Lufkin Rugged Engineer's rule, six-foot/twelve-section zig-zag with unusual markings. On one side, each of the six feet is graduated from one to eleven inches with the foot number large and red. On the other side each foot is graduated in hundredths of a foot, with numerals one to nine for each tenth of a foot and large red numbers at each foot. While the sections of this rule were made extra-thick for hard use, this rule saw hardly any use at all. A nice and unusual tool. Fine, was $30, now $25. $$ 1066D Another as above, just not quite as clean. Good+, was $20, now $15. TERMS: Standard Galoot T's & C's: I send you the tool, if you like it, you pay me for the tool plus shipping. If you don't like the tool, simply pay the return shipping to return it in the identical condition as when it left my shop. E-mail me for more info on any tool. Thanks for shopping and please check out my other lists for Rules, Saws, Levels, Boring Tools, Literature, Etc. Don Boyer dnbyr@a... ---- Start of Message 25266 ---- From: Date: 1997-09-01 04:58:00 Subject: FS METAL & WOODEN PLANES Hi, Gentle Galoots! A big THANK YOU to all of you who purchased from me last month. The house was looking almost neat when I finally got everything shipped. Of course, then I took the proceeds and went on a buying spree. What fun! * Means and item is NEW to the list $$ Means available now at a REDUCED PRICE ** Means an item has been TENTATIVELY SOLD Please be sure to see my other lists for more tools, and Happy Hunting! STANLEY PLANES **2 Type 10 with T trademark on cutter, c. 1907-09 only. A fantastic example of the tiny smoother in almost perfectly-preserved condition. The cutter was sharpened, but the plane doesn't show any real signs of use. The metal surfaces are in excellent condition, the Stanley marks on the blade and lateral adjust lever are deep and crisp, and the japan is nearly 100%. If you have an empty Stanley box for a number two, here's the plane for it. Near New, $295. *4 1/2 Type 12 with Y Sweetheart mark on cutter, c. 1921-22 only. An absolutely gorgeous plane in little used and extremely well-preserved condition. Probably 96% of the original japan and nearly 100% of the lacquer on the wood remain. Little signs of use and only the most minor apologies from storage. The casting was apparently protected by some thin rust-preventative coating, and the blade and lever cap are shiny and excellent. The rosewood in the handle is a pretty as it comes, with lovely contrasing striations of red-brown and near-black. No need to ever upgrade. Fine+, $150. *7C Jointer plane with corrugated sole, type 8 c. 1899-1902. An excellent example, wood is in beautiful condition with most original finish, exposed metal is lightly patinated and has some very fine pitting which could be polished out if desired, but it's so minor that it doesn't detract. Japanning has probably been enhanced, but very well done. Long blade retains a full 1 1/2" of cutting edge. A plane from Stanley's golden age in exceptional condition. Easily Good+ to near Fine, $110. *10 1/2 Bench Rabbet Plane, c. 1935-41. A little-used example which retains 11/16" of cutting edge. Missing a little japan, metal surfaces and wood have been carefully cleaned and are excellent. Good+ at least, $150. *101 Model maker's plane, relatively early with flat-headed lever cap screw and two-line "Stanley/Rule & Level Co." logo on cutter. Lots of original japan, but surface rust here and there on plane and cutter, should clean up well. This size plane has become quite collectible in recent years. Good or better, $30. *148 "Push n' Pull" tongue & groove plane, with a handle on each end. Cuts a 1/4" groove one way, a matching tongue the other way. For working stock up to 7/8" thick. Although this example has only about 80% of its original nickel and needs a gentle cleaning, it is otherwise complete with no chips, cracks, or other damage, and even has the original cutters, and the tongue cutter is marked with the Sweetheart mark c. 1921-1922 only. Aesthetically Good, physically fine. $65. *604C Bedrock type 3, c. 1900-1908, round sides and correct three-line Bedrock lever cap and '92 patent blade. Small owner's mark appears lightly twice on each side. Excellent wood and most of the original japan on a very nice example of Stanley's top-of-the-line. Good+, $125. $$ 5 1/2C Type 16 w/ BB mark on iron, c. 1935-41. Very clean with 99% japan, very, very minor evidence of shallow rust damage on the sole will easily polish out, full-length cutter is very clean, rosewood handles have only minor scuffs and most of original lacquer, a beautiful specimen. For use or display, about as good as they come. Good++, was $90, now $80 $$ 7 1/2 L. Bailey Victor jointer, early (type 1 or 2) with good knobs for parts. Lever cap knob has been cleaned and is fine, front knob has light rust; iron handle is good; lever cap appears to have been broken right across and welded long ago, no frog, casting covered with scale which should all polish off; correct early cutter with scaling but OK physically. A very rare plane waiting for restoration or to provide good parts for restoring yours (check out what the knobs and handles go for on the parts market). Fair-, was $135, now $100. $$ 13 Circular Plane, Type 3 prelateral with J trademark on iron c. 1885. Uncleaned, as found condition, with 70% japanning and light surface patination and some light surface rust. Should clean well. Early and scarce. Good, was $125, now $100. $$ 26 Wood-bottom "transitional" plane in exceptional condition, type 16 c. 1922-1935, Sweetheart mark on full-length cutter, 97% of original finish is a nice golden color. Full decal on top of toe. Sole looks like it was used for one job then put on a shelf for the last sixty or seventy years! Stanley transitionals are seldom seen in this condition, and I wouldn't even think of parting with it if I didn't have another in my collection. Very rare. Fine+, was $150, now $125. $$ 39 7/8 STANLEY cast in lever screw, lots of nickel on screws. Missing some japan, mostly on the handle, but otherwise very nice, and one of the hardest sizes to find. Good+, was $125, now $100. $$ 144-1/4 Corner Rounding Plane, Type 1 with "PAT. APL'D. FOR" in the casting. This is the rare 1/4"-radius size, the smallest and, according to John Walter, the hardest-to-find of the three sizes Stanley offered. An excellent collector-quality example of a very rare plane, priced to sell. Good++, was $335, now $300. $$ 180 T mark on cutter, 90% or more japanning, complete with depth stop, spots of very light patination and surface rust on sole, will clean easily to near Fine. This is a good deal on a plane that is not easy to find. Good++, was $50, now $40. $$ 605 Type 7 (1923-1926) except has "Made In USA" in bed like Type 8 but does not have cupped receiver for knob, which Bob Kaune's type-study says a Type 8 should have. I've corresponded with Mr. Kaune about this plane and he feels this one may be an anomaly. All parts correct. Sweetheart trademark on nearly unused iron (iron is so long it completely hides the lateral adjust lever). Casting has been cleaned and well done. Very small sliver from tip of tote, otherwise wood excellent with outline of decal remaining on tote. Some patination to the cast iron, and overall very nice. Good++, was $125, now $100. $$ Four Square Household Block Plane, AA mark on cutter (Sweetheart). Evidence of old rust on cutter and sole, which have been cleaned. Could be polished out if so desired. Adjustment knob is in very nice condition with all its nickel. Very tough to find at all, and even tougher to find in this condition. Good+, was $40, now $35. SARGENT PLANES *107 Block plane, 7 1/4" long, VBM "Very Best Made" logo on cutter, c. 1909-18. Similar to the Stanley 110, but not as common. This one is dirty and needs a gentle cleaning, but should be at least Good+ when you're finished. $22. *Sargent 722C Autoset jointer plane, early VBM model c. 1909-1918 with patented Tilting Front Knob, in especially well-preserved condition. This plane even has the full extra-long tip on the tote, which gave the Sargent bench planes a distinctive appearance but made them even more vulnerable to breakage than their Stanley equivalents. Speaking of equivalents, this is a number 7-sized plane and was the largest one offered in Sargent's illustrious Auto-set line, the working mechanisims of which bear a striking similarity to the Gage planes. This example saw little if any use, and what minor apologies exist appear to have developed from being bumped against other tools in the chest. Minor scuffs to the wood, patination on exposed metal but machining marks still evident, owner's initials stamped neatly once on each side and lightly on the front tilting knob. All parts original and correct, the cutter is even marked 722C (the corrugated planes must have a C on the cutter to be considered original and correct). A very scarce plane. Dave Heckel's new value guide to Sargent tools lists this plane at $200 to $400. You'll look long and hard to find a better one than this, Good+ or better, $185. $$ 3 Fulton bench plane, Sargent made for Sears. The handles are stained red like Stanley Defiance planes. Some surface rust which should clean off and one small chip in the middle of the tote tip (a little stain would make it much less obvious), otherwise no real signs of use and a nice addition to your Sargent or number 3 collection. Good+, will clean to Fine. Was $30, now $25. $$ 206 Sargent block plane, c. 1919-1942, equivalent to a Stanley 103 but with a superior cutter adjuster similar to other Stanley planes like the 15's - 19's. This one is about as clean as you can expect to find and will be a beautiful addition to your Sargent or block-plane collection. Fine, was $45, now $40. OTHER METAL PLANES *Plow plane, style unique to continental Europe. This piece came from a tool museum in Belgium and is probably from Germany or France. Body and fence are a fruitwood, I think. Fence is machined from a solid piece of wood to slide under main body, and has a nice ogee profile on the outer surface. Threaded arms have pretty "pawn" shaped finials and are a dark wood I can't identify, and except for very minor roughness to threads are in very good shape. Arms are fixed in the body with nice round medallions where they come through the opposite side of the main body, and fence moves on the arms between two pairs of nuts made of a beautiful wood which I think is figured boxwood but could be figured applewood or something similar. The inside pair of nuts is flat, about 1/2" thick, and inset into rounded recesses in the fence. The outer nuts are typical in shape and very pretty. Heavy steel depth stop fitted with brass plate at top and is held tight by a steel screw and brass thumb nut. Heel is marked "1 1 1" and has a tiny trademark stamp which appears to be a winged boy and an exotic bird (a peahen? a pheasant?) laying an egg! No wedge or blade, but these will be easily replaced. Just a light cleaning will be all that's required to make this a beautiful addition to any plow plane collection. Good+, $95. *Siegley No. 7C, corrugated sole jointer. Adjustment nut is identical to Stanley and this plane was probably made shortly after Stanley purchased plane-making rights from old Jacob Siegley in 1905. Original handle with unique checkering was cracked in several places and has been carefully reassembled and glued. The cracks are all clearly visible but the alignment is good and the plane remains historically correct. Blade and lever cap clean, casting a little dirty, a few nicks, four small file marks for owner ID, probably not much japan remaining under dust and dirt, but otherwise one of the unique American patented planes, and a good example. See P-TAMPIA for more info. Good, $45. *4C Union, scarce metal smooth plane from a company Stanley purchased in 1920. This plane predates the purchase by decades, I'd guess, as it looks much earlier than the one shown in the 1905 Union catalog illustrations on page 301 of P-TAMPIA vol. I. The mahogany handle and knob are good physically, with just light scuffing and a few paint splatters. The knob has a beautiful quirked bead around its base. The metal is covered with brown patination and some pitting will remain in spots on the casting and cutter when cleaned. Sole has paint rubbed off from the last door it was used on. Overall a nice and very difficult-to-find plane that should clean well. Good, $45. *024(?) Hibbard, Spencer & Bartlett "Revonoc" wood-bottom "transitional" smooth 8" long with 2" cutter. The plane is not marked with a number, but has a heavy tapered blade and matches the dimensions of the Ohio Tool 024. Toe and blade both marked "H,S&B/Revonoc." Hibbard, Spencer & Bartlett was a purveyor of hardware and high-quality tools in Chicago, and their "Revonoc" brand has, reportedly, something to do with their acquisition of the Conover Hardware Co. (?my memory may not be exactly right here, but this is close, I think). Revonoc is Conover backwards. Original finish is thin, but wood is very, very clean and nice and yellow in color. Casting has a lot of original japan, probably 70%. Only real negatives are that the blade, chip breaker and lever cap have been spray-painted black, perhaps to cover rust, but the texture of the paint makes it look like any rust is very thin and should clean up well, and the mouth has a couple of short shrinkage cracks at either side, which you might want to stabilize (possibly with a thin glue/hardwood sawdust mixture), but the mouth is nice and tight for a transitional and should make this plane a great user. Good, will clean to be even better. $30. $$ Birmingham non-adjustable block plane, boat-shaped body is 6 7/8" long. See P-TAMPIA vol. I, page 191 figure 237a for a similar but adjustable example. The casting of this one has the mount for an adjusting lever in the casting, but the blade has no provisions for being engaged by an adjuster. Birmingham must have used the same casting for both versions. Missing front knob, japan is rough, cutter is clean but mark is faint. Otherwise a very rare and collectible plane that will look much better with a little TLC. Good-, was $40, now $35. $$ Birmingham adjustable block plane, similar to above but only 5 1/4" long. Cutter very poor replacement, adjusting lever tip broken and gone, plane pitted heavily all over. An inexpensive one to hold that spot on your shelf until a better one comes along. Fair- but Rair+, was $15, now $10. $$ Aluminum block plane marked only P 3958 in the bed beneath the cutter. Similar to a Stanley 110, except the sole is corrugated! Does anyone know who made this? Nickel-plated cutter is probably a replacement and is rusty, but should clean up--the cutting end is very clean. Tight crack in base of front knob should glue back together fine, but knob will take a little persuasion to get it off for the repair. I haven't seen another corrugated block plane, and this one will be a neat addition to your block plane or aluminum tool collection. Good, but will clean to Good+ or better (except for the cutter, it will clean to Fine). Was $20, now $15. WOODEN PLANES *Parker Hubbard & Co., Conway, Mass, Double-iron Sash plane, crisp, oiled by previous owner, a few very minor stains and dirtiness, otherwise excellent and little used. It may have been tested, but I doubt it ever made a window. Good++, $35. $$193 H. Chapin "A" mark on a split frame ovolo sash, model number 193 on heel. Nice boxwood screws with some tight checks and very minor chips to threads. Some minor stains on one wedge. A better plane than it rates. Good, was $55, now $50. $$59 Ohio Tool Company, "C" mark and "E" wedge, "No. 59" and "1" [inch] on heel, ogee profile. Nice blade, few scratches and nicks on sole, couple of hammer dents on heel, but nice. Good+, was $35, now $30. $$N/M Luke Marley, nice narrow, single-boxed ogee and quirk, "B" mark, also marked on the heel, "J.Hill/397/Broadway", the well-known dealer who originally sold the plane. Two nails still in sole from old applied fence that is now gone, the nails have caused some small stains on the sole, but otherwise a nice plane which rates two stars in Pollack for rarity, indicating only 100 to 250 examples by this maker are believed to exist. The John Hill dealer mark is an additional plus. Good, was $75, now $65. $$N/M Dutch Flooring Plane, 43 1/2 inches long, nearly 4 inches tall and 4 inches wide. Lots of chip carving in the typical Dutch style, and "1803" carved in top. Wood is dark maroon and is very heavy, a tropical exotic, probably, at around 50 pounds per cubic foot. A couple of very big shrinkage cracks, one in sole and one on side, do not detract from a most impressive tool. Cutter is a proper and good replacement. I don't want to sell but my wife says "It's too big." Good, was $550, now $495. Working Set of Five Beading Planes by Marten Doscher, New York , all at least Good+: Four side beads, 3/16", 1/4", 3/8" and 3/4", and one 3/4" center bead with a beautiful mouth with dado-plane-style D-shaped openings on both sides of the plane which bevel inward to a central ridge. Tough to find this many beads with the same maker mark in this kind of condition. Good+ to Fine, $160 for the set. 62 1/2 Graduated Set of Three ogee complex molding planes by Ohio Tool Co., 1/2", 5/8" and 7/8" sizes. The 5/8" plane is missing the iron and wedge, so I'm tossing it in free with the purchase of the other two. All planes are good or better and could use a gentle cleaning. $60 for all. No. 232 Taber Plane Co. New Bedford Mass., Ogee & Quirk complex molding plane, with model no. and 7/8 on heel. "A" stamp, c. 1866-1872. Some dirtiness, a few nicks and scuffs, but a relatively crisp plane which will clean up nicely. $30. W. Marples & Sons/Hibernia/(Clover Leaf Design) Trade Mark/Sheffield on a no. 12 round plane. Quite dirty but should clean up well, owner's name stamped in side, a little roughness around the notch on the wedge, otherwise a very good, useable plane. Beautiful rays in beech. Good but will clean to better. $15. Kinnear (Scottish, operated in Perth & Dundee 1820-1845), narrow ovolo plane with deep integral fence, marked 3/8 on heel. Blade is an improper replacement but is the correct width and could be ground to proper profile. Only a few very small splatter stains and a little light staining around the wedge opening on top, otherwise a beautiful golden brown patina and overall crisp condition. Plane at least Good+ plus, except for replaced iron. $15. TERMS: Standard Galoot T's & C's: I send you the tool, if you like it, you pay me for the tool plus shipping. If you don't like the tool, simply pay the return shipping to return it in the identical condition as when it left my shop. E-mail me for more info on any tool. Thanks for shopping and please check out my other lists for Rules, Saws, Levels, Boring Tools, Literature, Etc. Don Boyer dnbyr@a... ---- Start of Message 25267 ---- From: Date: 1997-09-01 05:01:00 Subject: FS: Complete Woodworker The book is out of print and has been remaindered at Borders Books. If you haven't been abel to fine a copy yet, I have one left. $10 includes shipping. Bill ---- Start of Message 25268 ---- From: Date: 1997-09-01 05:01:00 Subject: FS: #8 jointer Stanley #8. Type 9. This is the low knob version w/o the frog adjusting screw. The wood is very good, no repairs. The japanning is about 60-70%. That is, it is good ahead of the tote, but scarce behind it. $90 and standard Oldtools terms. Bill ---- Start of Message 25269 ---- From: Date: 1997-09-01 05:01:00 Subject: FS: Keen Kutter Corkscrew This is just the thing to make your KK collection complete. A simple "T" handled corkscrew. Handle is wood, 3 1/2 inches long. On it is the complete KK logo: e.c. simmonds KEEN KUTTER St. Louis U.S.A. Condition is very good -- the shaft is nickeled and about 50% remains. Price is $10 and standard Oldtools terms. Bill ---- Start of Message 25270 ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1997-09-01 05:32:00 Subject: FS: Two scraper planes (112, 12) I have two scraper planes for sale this month. Both were purchases a while ago from an esteemed dealer on the net, and the tools remain in the spiffy condition I got them in. I have others, and so want to pass these onto other galoots who'll use them. (1) Stanley #112 scraper plane. generally conceded to be the finest general-purpose scraper plane ever made. Boss condition -- near 100% japanning, fine rosewood, sole nice and bright. Original SW blade. $230. Scrape your way to glory with this baby, through the hardest, orneriest figured woods under the sun. (2) Stanley #12 scraper plane. Near 100% japanning. (Rosewood handles were dull, I waxed 'em with Tony Seo's magic wax formula.) "Stanley Rule & Lever Co." imprinted on rear brass adjustment knob. $95. Standard Oldtools terms. -- Andrew Barss ---- Start of Message 25271 ---- From: Date: 1997-09-01 05:42:00 Subject: Re: Stanley Handle & Knob Construction In a message dated 97-08-31 22:38:27 EDT, you write: << In a message dated 97-08-31 22:11:55 EDT, Dnbyr@a... writes: << The surface of the brass nut which bears on the wood is flat, which as opposed to a tapered screw head intended for conventional countersinking, would apply a downward pressure only, rather than any sideward force which might tend to split the wood. >> Then why use the countersunk tapered type screw on, e.g., the No. 62 and on transitionals (I think that's right, at least as to totes)? Lloyd Henley >> Good questions, Lloyd. Regarding transitionals, the front knob is secured by a standard flat-head wood screw with tapered (what's the correct term for the underside of the head?) underside of the head. The totes, however, are secured by the same brass nut & steel rod as on metal planes. I don't have a 62 right now to look at, but if it does use a solid bolt instead of the two-piece "bolt", my guess is that it provided a more reliable means for loosening and tightening the front knob when adjusting the throat plate. Someone chime in and help us out, here! Don ---- Start of Message 25272 ---- From: Eddie Sirotich Date: 1997-09-01 06:02:00 Subject: FS: ED Dovetail Saws Gentle Galoots, I have re-designed the ED dovetail saw according to the comments from a number of Galoots. The result is a traditional looking dovetail saw made to cut well and last long. Here are some of the characteristics: - Blade is filed rip, has 15 tpi, kerf width is 0.026", blade itself is 0.020" thick. - Open type handle, made of Bubinga (African Rosewood). Made for three fingered grip, index finger points forward. Red-brown color, very strong. Handle is rounded better than on prototypes. - Brass back with millled groove for the blade, much lighter than the prototype. - Two brass bolts with split nuts. - Recessed bolts, flush with handle. The saw cuts agressively, leaves a very narrow kerf and the handle fits hand nicely. My web site contains the picture of the old version of the saw, but it is very similar in appearance to the new one. I promise to update the photo in a near future! Price: $85 US Terms: Standard Old Tools I will continue to offer the old version of the saw. Some people like the heavy brass back and big handle, which are the only things different from the standard version. Thanks for reading! Eddie Sirotich Adria Tools - High Quality Hand Tools http://www.woodworking.com/adria ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Adria Tools - High Quality Hand Tools http://www.woodworking.com/adria ---- Start of Message 25273 ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1997-09-01 06:04:00 Subject: FS: Books on Tools and Woodworking For sale this month (Standard terms apply): (1) The 1996 reprint of Ken Roberts' *Wooden Planes in 19th Century America, Volume I*. Some of us got together last year and organized, with the author, a bound photocopy/reprint of this classic and scholarly book, which is now permanently out of print. I ended up with two copies, and would like to pass this one on at cost to another galoot who'll read and appreciate it. $38 (plus ship). (2) High-quality Ken Roberts reprint of the Lufkin Rule Co. catalogs from 1888 to 1901, and exerpts from their later catalogs. Really interesting information on the many rules and related devices produced by this company. $9. Two available, both perfect condition. (3) Roberts' reprint of the 1860 Belcher Brothers & Co.'s *Price List of Ivory and Boxwood Rules*. 43 pages, plus commentary from Mr. Roberts. $8. (4) Roberts' reprint of the John Rabone and Son *Instructions for the Use of The Practical Engineer's & Mechanics Improved Slide Rule, as Arranged by J. Routledge, Engineer...[title goes on for a full paragraph of florid 19th-century prose]*. Title says it all! Superb condition (all the above are unread, brand new condition). $8 (two copies available). (5) Superb condition copy of *How to Work ... with ... Tools and Wood.* This is a Stanley publication, and this copy dates from around 1942, and has the maroon and gold cover of that era. Hardback, and in essentially terrific condition: no blemishes, spots, scratches, nary a folded-over corner. $30. 188 pages, with index, of discussion of tools and techniques -- succinct and useful. $30. (6) "The Joy Of Accomplishment, by Stanley". This is a 12-page booklet included in Stanley toolboxes in the 50s. This copy seems largely unhandled by humans: you can tell the paper has aged, but that's it (it was found tucked into the back of E2). $20. (7) Brown and Sharpe 1929 Catalog #139. 656 pages of everything this major manufacturr of precision machinery and tools made between the wars, from flexible rules to bigass bigiron metal lathes. Copiously illustrated. Hardback. Back cover has soft bend, presumably from use. Pages clean and undamaged; some yellowing to paper via age, as one would expect. $25. -- Andrew Barss ---- Start of Message 25274 ---- From: Date: 1997-09-01 06:14:00 Subject: Stanley Handle & Knob Construction John Hunt wrote: >Well, it seems incredibly slow on the list so I will pad it a little >withmy ignorant, uneducated guesses. >On Sun, 31 Aug 1997 Dnbyr@a... wrote: >> My theory is that having both ends of the rod threaded allowed a greater > >range of adjustment than threads in the casting boss would allow to > >accomodate variations in handle height, seasonal wood movement in the handle > >or knob, etc. >My theory is that is is simply a machining issue. The combinationn of >the rod and bass nut was simply the easiest way to make the part at that >time. >The part needed some strength, so casting a blank from cast iron >from which to machine the part wouldn't work. And machining it down from >7/16" bar stock was simply too wasteful of material. So that had the nut >machined from 7/16" bar stock, brass because it was easier to tap and >added a touch of class. The threaded rod was made out of steel rod with >the thread rolled into it. >So my argument is that is was simply the cheapest, easiest way to do the >job at the time. >Now to change the subject slightly, I'd like to hear about what kind of >automation they had for these types of jobs. >-John- Well, John, I'm not an expert and I'm hoping someone out there is or has the right reference, but I have to believe the technology existed in the late 1860's (when the Bailey planes were introduced) to forge solid bolts from rod stock of the desired finished _shaft_ diameter (as opposed to the finished head diameter). I just finished reading a high school text called "General Metals," and it included information on the many ways bolts and screws can be made. As I recall, forging a head on a rod by "upsetting" the metal (I hope this is the correct term) produces a bolt that is even stronger than one machined from a rod of larger diameter, because of the way the grain of the metal deforms into the shape of the head. Since the Industrial Revolution was well underway in the '60's and factories were producing items like hammer heads and axe heads by the gazillions using water- and steam-powered machines, (I think I'm right about this--I may have read it in a book on the David Maydole hammer company), you would think all those huge machines would have been assembled using bolts, and that some technology existed to manufacture bolts without having to machine each one from a rod the size of the desired head. Well, that's my speculation. Who can give an authoritative response? Don ---- Start of Message 25275 ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1997-09-01 06:21:00 Subject: FS: Rabbet Planes Standard terms. Again, sorting out redundancies in my collectio... ah, accumulation of tools. (1) Stanley #78 fillister and rabbet plane. Complete with all parts (depth stop, nicker, fence, rod, etc). Notched rectangle (and scary sharp) blade; has depth adjuster (earilest models didn't). Has near all japanning; one minor rust spot on undrside of fence. Pretty sweet, and priced to move at $50. (2) Most of a Miller's Falls #85 (their clone of th Stanley's #78). Has: body; blade; lever cap; adjuster; nicker. Is missing: fence and depth stop. Use as is with a batten (like a wooden rabbet plane would be used), or find the two missing pieces (or try the Stanley parts 800 number for their version). Either way, it's yours for $16. -- Andrew Barss ---- Start of Message 25276 ---- From: Date: 1997-09-01 06:30:00 Subject: Skew Angle for 46 Cutters Thomas McCluskey wrote: >The only angles I control as someone who >wants to sharpen his blades accurately, is the bevel angle (the primary >angle of the cutting edge in relation to the flat part of the blade) and >the skew angle (the angle of the the cutting edge in relation to the >sides.) On a typical plane blade the "standard" bevel is 25 degrees. Now I know which angle Patrick Leach measured! I hadn't thought about the cutting edge sharpening angle. I just measured the blades for my c. 1920 #46, and the sharpening angle is about 24.5 degrees when measured perpindicular to the actual cutting edge (when measured parallel to the sides of the blade, it's 25.5 degrees, a different measurement because of the skew of the cutting edge, but this isn't the way you'd really want to measure this angle). The sharpening angle on the c. 1880's #46 is around 30 degrees. There are slight variations from cutter to cutter in the sets for both planes, so this angle is probably no more critical than for most other types of planes. >The "standard" skew is 90 degrees ( or maybe 0 degrees) I think 90 is the best definition since the two sides/edges of the blade which are parallel to the direction the plane moves during use are probably the best reference for this angle. >BTW what was the variance on your 1880s vs. 1920s?. The reason I ask is >my plane is from the 20s and the cutters wers purchased separately and >are older. The differences were so slight I considered them insignificant (within one degree or less). The cutter slot on the earlier #46 plane seems to be a little wider than on the later plane, and the bolt which tightens the blade is not keyed as on the later plane, so it can rotate and pinch the blade with an edge of the "flat" on its head instead of the entire flat. Unless you're careful, the cutter may not actually seat against the rear bearing surface of the main body when you tighten the wing nut. I'm not sure I was careful about putting the cutter in, so the small variations may simply have been due to my carelessness. All that to say the differences in the measurements were so close as to be insignificant, IMHO. Feel free to contact me directly if you'd like some tips on making cutters for the #46. The methods I developed involve tailed apprentices, so they're probably best discussed in the back yard. :-) Don ---- Start of Message 25277 ---- From: Date: 1997-09-01 06:30:00 Subject: A Proposal for a Diploma or Certificate The following is presented for your consideration. Is it overkill? Can we make this work? Can we make it work if we change it a little? Dress this up in your favorite Fancy Font. with ruled borders, etc: A Diploma Be it known to all by these presents, that Whereas the person named below has shown competence in the identification of old tools, and Whereas he has shown diligence in the research of the same, and Whereas he has practiced and mastered the arts of preservation of these items, and Whereas he has shared with his peers his knowledge and enthusiasm in these pursuits, Therefore, Name is hereby awarded this diploma in the identification , preservation, and study of old tools with special emphasis on the tools of the ZZ trades given after due examination and consideration by his peers and presented on the XXth day of YY, in the year 9999. Signed Competent Authority Counter Signed Authorized Signature =================================== An oath, to be sworn on the award of the Diploma: I promise that I will share my knowledge and skills with those who appreciate these matters, and I will seek to increase my competence and understanding of these matters, and I will support others as they seek to master these matters, and I will not exploit my expertise to the detriment of others. Or, in informal terms: The guild has no secrets, no one has the last word, we work together, and nobody gets hurt. ============================== an examination for the diploma: Describe your area of expertise. (For example, 18th century cooperage, or copper tools used in Egypt, or domestic textile devices found in rural America.) Write briefly on your qualification, either academic or practical, with respect to your area of expertise, in the three areas of a) identification, b) preservation, and c) research. Indicate (approximately) the duration or extent of your activities in these three areas. (For example, ran the Whatzit column in publication X for 2 years, or published two papers on Y in 1974 and 1985, or made 50 minute video about restoring Z, based on 12 years experience.) Explain briefly why you are applying for this diploma. Why is this important to you? ====== Rules of the Game: Upon receipt of an examination, a board of competent volunteer Galoots will be sought to consider the information supplied; the examination will be subjected to the scrutiny of the board; and comments will be exchanged. Decision will reached in 30 days; if the board is unable to reach a decision in 30 days, or if no board can be formed, then the diploma is granted, but for one year only. Diplomas, once granted, are valid for 5 years (see exception above); the holder may petition for renewal, ad lib. Upon receipt of a petition for renewal, the comments of all Galoots on the porch will be solicited. Renewal will be routinely granted, unless severe adverse comments are received. A list of diploma holders will be maintained, and timely warnings issued about impending expirations. ======== Thank you for your support, and your comments. ---- Start of Message 25278 ---- From: Aaron & Jennifer Ionta Date: 1997-09-01 02:37:00 Subject: how to sharpen a #80 blade? just picked up a #80 today for 23$ -Bruce- does not look like the original blade ? should there be any Stanley markings on the blade? complete 70% jappaning has "B" marking under handles now for the question?? the blade has a bevel of approx 45 deg do I "SS" this like a bench plane or does it get treated like a regular hand scraper. I am going to use it to scrape a cherry side table that I made ina class using demonic *l*ctr*c*l devices. ( In my defense I used my well tuned up #3 with the orange frog (Thanks Tom J. and SWMBO) to do all of the machine mark removal) TIA aaron - who hopes that this will not get completely lost in the maddness of FMM. p.s. also spotted a really nice C. E. Jenings drawknife #6 with movable handles and a nice D.R. Barton #10 drawknife both in the 35$ range - ??? a ripoff or a good deal ---- Start of Message 25279 ---- From: David Hunkins Date: 1997-09-01 07:49:00 Subject: FS - variety for users GG's, Thanks to those who made purchases last month. The following list reveals few additions, but there are many lots with reductions in price. ********************************************************************** METAL +++++ M1. Fulton No. 3700 block plane. No Frills ... like Stanley No. 110. G condition. $10. M2. Millers Falls 24" (No. 8 size) Jointer. 2-part lever cap. Finial sheared from rosewood tote, and finish cracking from knob. Some staining and mild pitting. Should make a great user. Rates G. $75. M3. Stanley No. 66 beader. Early japanned model with straight fence and no cutters. 50% finish and some corrosion on thumbscrews. G. $32. M4. Stanley No. 66 beader. B casting, (50%) nickeled variety. Straight fence and one homemade cutter. G. $29. M5. Stanley No. 10 rabbet plane. Type 16 vintage. 95% japanning, some nicks on otherwise good wood. Crisp except for some storage stain and mild pitting on sole and one side. Great user and value at $135. M6. Stanley No. 140 rabbet block plane. SweetHart vintage. One side-plate screw is not original. Split in knob has been glued (easily replaced with 110 knob if you want). $95. M7. Stanley-Victor No. 1104 smoother. No. 4 size. Grey and red casting. Stained hardwood. Fits in the same quality niche as the Defiance and Handyman line. Not often seen. G+. $30. M8. Stanley No. 7 jointer. Late type 19 vintage with stained hardwood. Rescued and cleaned. It must have been sitting in gunk ... an otherwise great plane becomes a great user for the sake of cosmetics (which would certainly clean up during lapping operations) ;-) Should make a great performer. $75. M9. Stanley No. 8C jointer. Giving up my old user for an upgrade. Type 12 SweetHart. 50% japanning. Horn off tote, chip off knob, but ready to work. $90. M10. Stanley No. 78 duplex rabbet. SweetHart on iron. Wrong thumbscrew on fence, o/w complete. 65% finish. $42. M11. Stanley No. 77 dowel machine w/ one 3/8" cutter (OB). Early "V" logo vintage. Very nice example. G+. $365. M12. Stanley No. 3C smoother. Type 19. Lacking finish on great rosewood tote. Very mild pitting. Rates Good. Y'all want good users for low book prices. Here's a good one at $38. M13. Stanley No. 80 scraper. 1907-10 "T" logo. 50% japanning. Workable, non-original blade. G. $24. M14. Record No. 077 bullnose shoulder plane. 3-7/8" x 1-1/8" size. Craftsman-made mahogany box. Nickle not shiny, but should be a great little user. $90. M15. Mohawk-Shelburne 14" jack. Black lever cap with orange/red upper section. Lovely, sensitive detailing! G. $16. ********************************************************************** WOODEN PLANES +++++++++++++ W1. Arrowmammett Works. 1-13/16" single-boxed Quirk Ogee. Front boxing needs slight adjustment, bottom right corner is rough. G+. $60. W2. Greenfield Tool Co. 1-7/8" skew rabbet with nicker on right side. Some surface rust on iron & nicker. As found condtion, should clean to almost G+. $24. W3. E.&J.Evans/ Rochester. (2-star) 2-15/16" Reverse Ogee w/ fillet. Minor checking. G. $52. W4. J.&J.Gibson/ Albany. 2-5/8" single-boxed Grecian Ovolo w/ bead. Some replaced boxing that needs to be tuned. Otherwise G+. $46. W5. Randall & Bensen/ Albany. 2-1/8" Ogee w/ astragal. Replaced wedge, o/w G. Some minor checking. $58. W6. Randall & Cook/ Albany. Tongue & groove pair for 1" stock. One replaced wedge o/w G. $32. W7. J.Webb/ Pittsfield. Moving fillester with full shoulder boxing. Needs repair to nicker wedge. Brass over cleaned. Otherwise G+. $65. W8. J.Killam/ Glastenbury. Moving fillester. Simple shoulder boxing. Replaced wedge of maple. Otherwise G+. $50. W9. R.&L.Carter/ Troy. Hard to find T&G pair for 1/2" stock. As found condition, needs cleaning. G. $38. W10. Barry & Way/ N.York. 2-1/4" single-boxed Quirked Ogee w/ bevel. Nice deep curves and pretty condition. G++. $74. W11. David Bensen/ Albany. 2" Grecian Ovolo w/ fillet. Single boxed. Nice orange paint spatter ;-) Some minor checking. G to G+. $42. W12. R.&L.Carter/ Troy. Double boxed 5/8" side bead. Very nice! G++. $28. W13. J. Kellogg. 1-1/4" skew rabbet. Right side slightly shaved. Some paint spatter. G at least. $18. W14. Parry/ Brooklyn. (rarely seen 2-star maker) S-boxed 3/16" side bead. Wedge ragged, fence slightly shaved o/w G++. $46. W15. A.&E.Baldwin/ N.York. 3/8" side bead w/ great full-hammer-head boxing. Some stain & roughness on R side, o/w G+. $30. ********************************************************************* MISCELLANEOUS +++++++++++++ MS1. Modern drawknife with 9-3/4" blade. Marked Oxhead - Germany. Red handles. Near new with original grind on blade. Same item in Highland Hardware catalog for $29.95, yours for $16. MS2. Rosewood bevel gauge. Looks English. Beautiful rosewood with lots of brass. Unmarked. G++. $35. MS4. Box scraper/Inshave ... bevel on inside and flatter radius are telltale signs that it is not what some term an inshave. Still good for some scooping and hollowing. Near fine. $22. MS5. Rumbold Co. butt mortise plane. Manufactured in the 1950's in Chicago. L-N patterned their copy after this. Great special purpose plane. G to G+. Get an original for only $50. MS6. "Slide Rules & Calculating Instruments". Keuffel & Esser Co. New York. Copyright 1915. 5-3/4" x 8-3/4", pp. 20. Nice catalog. Once folded along length, otherwise good condition. $48. MS7. EAIA Chronicle. March 1977. Interesting early publication with articles on History of Bailey Tool Company, Fillet cutting planes, spruce oil, Some American Ice Tool Manufacturers and Dealers of 1930, Paul Revere water dam, Thomas Napier early planemaker. Only $3. MS8. "Tho. Grant, Ironmonger". 1978 EAIA publication written by Daniel Semel on his research into finding Thomas Grant the early planemaker and ironworker. $8. MS9. "The Mannheim (Complete Manual) and the Duplex Slide Rules", by Wm. Cox. Publ. by Keuffel & Esser Co. Copyright 1891. Approx. 62p. Primarily a teaching manual with 3 pages of ads at end. Very good condition with exception of some spotting and gentle folds on cover. $55. MS10. Proto Tools. 1949 catalog with price list. Issued by Plomb Tool Company, Los Angeles. Listings of multitudes of wrenches, socket sets, plumber, auto-body, and auto mechanic tools. $26. MS11. Rabone & Sons. 24" steel shrink rule. $12. ****************************************************** You know the way it works. For the most part Standard OldTools Procedure is fine. I might hesitate and need to talk more if I've never seen your name show up in a post, but for the most part it works like this: First email commitment reserves item. Discussion takes place if necessary to clarify details and descriptions. You supply address, I mail to you, I contact you with shipping amount, you send check for total. All sales guaranteed ... returns encouraged if you ain't happy, but I'll only pay for return shipping if my descriptions weren't accurate. Thanks for taking a look! Best regards, David ---- Start of Message 25280 ---- From: Aaron & Jennifer Ionta Date: 1997-09-01 02:50:00 Subject: Re: how to sharpen a #80 blade? ps the replacement blade has ?H BISHOP & CO stamped on it. oh and a nother question ... teh bevels face points toward the back of the plane ?? SIDE VIEW handel removed for clarity ---------- # # = blade # F __ # F | | R / /# R | | O / /# O | | N / /# N | / T / { T |/ / # ____ / # | ^ close up of blade tip ^ /- -#--------| | | Aaron ajionta@m... our new at home email address -Bruce, Tom aaron.ionta@i... daytime work email address thanks to everyone! ---- Start of Message 25281 ---- From: John Hunt Date: 1997-09-01 08:12:00 Subject: Re: Stanley Handle & Knob Construction Don, I agree that the equipment WAS available, but Stanley didn't seem to use it very much. Looking at my small collection of turn-of-the-century bench planes, most the the fasteners look turned from bar stock. Now I am ignorant of ow they ere really made, I am just looking at the machining marks on the screws. On the frog adjustment screw I see axial marks that appear the be left over from amking the bar stock, and on the tip of the screw I see what appears to be the mark from cutting off the rest of the stock. I'd love to hear a difinitive answer, especially one the includes the visible machining makrs left on the various screws. Given that Stanley used non-standard pitches in there machine screws, I feel that they likely did not farm out the work to the guys that had the 'high tech' bolt forming equipment of which you speak. -John- Now back to our regularly scheduled feeding frenzy..... On Mon, 1 Sep 1997 Dnbyr@a... wrote: > Well, John, I'm not an expert and I'm hoping someone out there is or has the > right reference, but I have to believe the technology existed in the late > 1860's (when the Bailey planes were introduced) to forge solid bolts from rod > stock of the desired finished _shaft_ diameter (as opposed to the finished > head diameter). I just finished reading a high school text called "General > Metals," and it included information on the many ways bolts and screws can be > made. As I recall, forging a head on a rod by "upsetting" the metal (I hope > this is the correct term) produces a bolt that is even stronger than one > machined from a rod of larger diameter, because of the way the grain of the > metal deforms into the shape of the head. Since the Industrial Revolution > was well underway in the '60's and factories were producing items like hammer > heads and axe heads by the gazillions using water- and steam-powered > machines, (I think I'm right about this--I may have read it in a book on the > David Maydole hammer company), you would think all those huge machines would > have been assembled using bolts, and that some technology existed to > manufacture bolts without having to machine each one from a rod the size of > the desired head. > > Well, that's my speculation. Who can give an authoritative response? > > Don > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25282 ---- From: Stuart Date: 1997-09-01 08:12:00 Subject: wtb misc items I am in the market for: small anvils 4" or less. preston bullnose planes 72 stanley plane blade small brass infil plane also the book the stanley plane by alvin sellens if you have any of these please make me an offer. stu in the land down under ---- Start of Message 25283 ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 1997-09-01 07:39:00 Subject: FS September 1997 Standard terms. When item is received, notice the postage on the package, and add that to the price. Within a few hours of posting this list I will be going away for about a week, so I will not see any responses until next weekend or be able to answer questions, or mail anything until the following week. Orders will be honored in the order that they are logged in. Plow plane, slide-arm fence clamped by wooden thumb screws, wooden depth stop also clamped by wooden thumb screw. Minor cracks in body. , early 19th century maker in Providence R.I. Pollack gives him one star. One blade included. Additional ones may be available. $45. Ogee and bevel complex molder, 1 1/8 inch cut. C. Warren, Nashua. $40. Deep Roman ogee by E. Baldwin. 1 1/8 inch wide. Some chips and glued crack at toe end. Boxing all good. $35. Quarter round, 3/8 inch radius, D. Bensen, Albany. good + condition. $15. Roman ogee, 5/8 inch wide by Anderson (British, early 19th cent.). Short bits of boxing are missing from toe and heel. There is a hanging hole at the front. Otherwise Good+. $25. Ogee and bevel molder, 1 1/2 in. cut. Overall fine condition. M. Copeland. $40. Ogee and bevel molder, 1 inch cut. Birmingham, early 19th Century. A few old wormholes but wood otherwise good. $25. Round plane 1 5/8 in. $15. Pair of 5/8 size T&G planes by H. Wilson, Newcastle, England. Undamaged except for the usual paint spots and clear marks of the users hands, which could be scrubbed off. $30. Pair of 1/2 in size T&G planes by early English maker I. Cox. The groover has an added fence, and the two wedges do not match, although both are old. Wood is in good shape. $30. Pair of unhandled match planes for 1/2 inch stock. Union Factory. Grooving plane has some old worm holes. $25. Unnumbered hollow, 1 5/8, by James Moore and Son, Concord, NH (probably hardware dealer rather than maker). Looks hardly used but has two owner stamps. $20. Stanley 55 with 24 blades and both nickers, missing slitting cutter assembly. $250. Stanley 4 1/2 plane. Heavy casting, wartime model, aluminum tote, hardwood knob, unusual japanned lever cap. A solid plane for hard work. $50. Scraper of the general pattern of the Stanley 80, but the blade is held by a cam clamp rather than screws. The blade is a new one by Record. Japanning is about 50%. $25. Gunstock or chair leg scraper. Craftsman-made. Brass sole. Wood stained dark but perhaps is beech. $15. Concave bottom spokeshave, Stanley No. 55, only a few small chips in the japanning. $10. Drill-bit grinding jig, Craftsman, for bits 1/8 to 3/4 inch. Instructions included. $6. Millers Falls 2A hand drill, takes bits to 5/16. Double bevel gears. Has the often-missing side-handle. Ferrule on top handle has a crack. Varnish is crazed (as usual). $7. Combination tool handle, rare Wrights Patent Aug 12 1884. Rosewood handle with 8 tools, all in good shape. $30. Grinding wheel, Norton, 6in. diameter, 1in. thick, 1/2in. shaft, fine grit (Crystolon 37090-OVK) $3. Grinding wheel, Craftsman, aluminum oxide, 7in. diameter, 1 in. thick, 1/2 in. shaft, grit 36, grade N. $3. Like the above but grit 100. $3. Pad saw, Dexter, rosewood and aluminum handle, one blade included. Takes blades up to 5/8 inch wide. $4. Try square, rosewood handle, 6in. blade with graduations. Wood and brass are fine but steel blade needs some polishing. $5. Like the above, but 3in. blade is not graduated. $3. Like the above, but 6in. blade is not graduated and overall condition not as good as the last two. Name stamp $3. Try and miter square. Rosewood and brass handle has 45 deg. angle at top end. 6in blade with graduations. Wood and brass are fine, but steel blade needs polishing. $5. Machinist-type all-steel square 4 3/4 in. blade. Needs polishing. $2. Interlox MasterRule. It looks like a zig-zag rule, but the sections pull straight out, great for inside measurements. Patent dates 1910, 1913, 1915, 1918. Abstract of Patent is included with this rare item in good+ condition. $35. All of the following chisels have handles, some like new, some worn, but all serviceable: 2in by 6in. bevel-edged blade A few small dings on one side. $10. 1 1/2in by 4in. square-edged blade. $6. 1in by 5 1/2in. square-edged blade. $8. 1in by 4 1/2in. bevel-edged blade, no name. $4. 1in. by 4in. bevel-edged blade. $5. 1in. by 4in. bevel-edged blade. $4. 3/4in. by 4 1/2in. bevel-edged blade. $4. 3/4in. by 2 1/2in. Stanley No. 50. $3. 3/4in. by 3 1/2in. Bevel-edged. $6. 3/4in. by 3in. square-edge blade $5. 5/8in by 3 3/4in. bevel-edged. $5. 1/2in by 5 1/2 in. square edged. No Name. $4. 7/16in by 2 3/4in. square edged $5. 1/2in. by 2in. Bevel-edged $2. 3/8in. by 6 1/2 in. $8. 1/4in. by 3 1/4in. Bevel-edged. $6. 1/8in. by 1 3/4in. square-edged. . $4. 1/8in. by 6in. mortise chisel. Partly legible name <...STONE> $8. 1 1/4in by 5 1/2in. out-cannel gouge. . $10. 1in.. by 3 3/4in. in-cannel gouge $10. 7/8in. by 1 1/2in. out-cannel gouge, $4. 3/4in. by 3in. out-cannel gouge $6. 3/8in by 2 3/4in. Out-cannel gouge. $5. 1/4in. by 3in. Out-cannel gouge. No Name. $4. Trevor Robinson 65 Pine Street Amherst, MA 01002 ---- Start of Message 25284 ---- From: Ted Scott Date: 1997-09-01 03:00:00 Subject: FS: salvaged 16/4 Oak and Chestnut $2/BF GG's A local pack rat is tearing down an industrial building that was put up in the '20s. Natcherally I smell lumber and go have a look. We get to talking and next thing I know is that he has asked me if I can help move any of it for him. The prices seem right so ... Prices: (F.O.B. Middletown, Md 21769) Beams and Joists: Oak & Chestnut: $2.00 / BF Other species: $1.75 / BF Order > 100 BF: $1.75 / BF Order > 100 BF: $1.50 / BF Sheathing and Flooring: $1.25 to $1.50 / BF depending on condition. Not much left from this building, but if you are interested, write if I can't find what you want in the guy's barn, I'll get you on the list for the next building. What's availible: Beams, posts, rafters, purlins, floor decking, joists. If you want a specific member, I'll do my best to find it for you. In addition to the frame comming down now, there are 3 more in storage, and 3 more to come down by the time snow flies. Example: The joists: Mixed oak and chestnut 12/4 - 18/4 x 12"-18" x 10' - 20' They appear that they will grade FAS, but let's call them #1 common. They are not out of the building yet (mid month). We estimated about 5000BF will be available. Only solid wood will be shipped, it will be inspected for wood borers damage, and rot. It may have "metal lint" (metal In it) at places, and man made defects (Mortices etc.) Defects are deducted from BF total, metal is not. Terms: Advance payment for total BF order, shipped either Frieght Collect, or after bundled, I'll phone you with shipping cost. I'll be putting an inventory on the web site. -Ted ---- Start of Message 25285 ---- From: Dewey Date: 1997-09-01 10:32:00 Subject: FS: Japanese oldtools Greetings