---- Start of Message 25001 ---- From: Pierre Fogal Date: 1997-08-27 17:01:00 Subject: Re: Tooling in the Southwest Addressed to: attaway@p... oldtools@l... ** Reply to note from attaway@p... Wed, 27 Aug 1997 07:34:46 -0500 (CDT) What!?! You didn't see Cut-n-Shoot, DimeBox, Hell, Waxahachie, Independence, Industry, New Ulm, Refugio (pronounced Re-fe-ur-e-o), or Mexia (pronounced Muh-hay-uh). And don't forget world famous La Grange (think Dom del Louise and houses of ill repute)! Ahhh, Mexia ... been there .... Not far from Mexia is Palestine, Tx and the National Scientific Balloon Facility. The recovery boys from NSBF typically drive to Mexia after a balloon launch, stop at the Dairy Queen (if its still there) and call back to the base to see which way the balloon is heading. On one such occassion, a conversation started up about how Mexia should be pronounced. One guy used the pronounciation expressed above, the other said the "x" should be pronounced gringo fashion ie MEX ia. Well, these guys stop at the dairy queen and make their call and order a shake. The senior of the two then says to the girl behind the counter ... "Tell me the name of this place, and say it real slow" She replies: D.A.I.R.Y. Q.U.E.E.N. Regards, Pierre To quote Harry Chapin: "I spent a month there one afternoon ...." Dr. Pierre Fogal Physics Dept., University of Denver Denver, CO, USA. ---- Start of Message 25002 ---- From: Esther Heller Date: 1997-08-27 11:04:00 Subject: RE: viking visual requested > > I've been thinking about this. I have some really nice salvaged (very old) > wood with _original_vikings_ in place. I was wondering if it might be > possible to excavate the grave. I would think the same techniques would > apply as for other joinery restoration. If one were very careful in the > removal of the viking, the process should do zero damage. Naturally, proper > clamping to restrain the wood would be necessary. Think of what might be > learned about tool usage and technique by examining the grave under > magnification. So, is it worth the risk??? When you remove the viking from its grave, please be _very careful_ not to damage the textiles used as graveclothes, a bunch of us fiberholics are salivating at the thought of some samples in pristine condition. Major points of interest: Fiber type (wool, silk, linen, etc.) thread techniques (wraps per in, s or z twist, s or z ply, worsted or woolen spun, grist) Any dyes techniques (knit, loom woven, tablet woven, sprang, nalbinding, felting) Garment layout and construction (selvedges are particularly important because they can be evidence for the type of loom) Just say (tm PL) you would be surprised what has been learned by removing vikings from their graves in Birka Sweden or Greenland..... Esther who thinks we are all about ready for FMM eoh@k... ---- Start of Message 25003 ---- From: Bob Roche Date: 1997-08-27 17:16:00 Subject: Andy Rooney (was: Re: Jimmy Carter a Galoot??) -Reply Andy's may claim galoot activities, but I have personally seen him buy tailed apprentices at R.B. Wing in Albany. Of course that was 7 or 8 years ago. He may have changed since then. This store is now defunct, but it was great for Norm and Galoot alike. His style in person was not unlike that of his on air persona. As I recall he had about 1/2 dozen electric drills spread out on the counter in front of him and he was giving the clerk a very difficult time about minute details on the different models. Bob Roche Albany, NY broche@m... >>> "J. Gunterman" john@g... 08/25/97 08:10pm >>> At 11:15 AM -0700 8/25/97, David Hunkins wrote: >Speaking of CelebrityGaloots, anybody ever notice the Slab-O-Desk that Andy >Rooney sits behind each Sunday night? I recall a while ago.... Andy did his segment about that desk. he explained how he found that tree in the Castskill Mt's, cut it down himself using just an axe.......... the used a skidder to haul it out of the woods, from there it was taken to a mill(no mention of it's power source) and that huge slab was harvested from it. If you look very closely you can see the Dutchman he laid into a fissure in the slab. He explained that the crack opened as the slab dried so he "put this cool old wedge" in it to hold it closed. He hade no mention of using Vikings on the revese side, though. He is a galoot in the finest tradition, fer sure L8r, John ---- Start of Message 25004 ---- From: Anatol Polillo Date: 1997-08-27 13:27:00 Subject: Make a chair from a tree info Galoots, In response to a few questions. John Alexander has a website at www.deeppool.com/greenwoodworking.shtml It is a work in progress but it has interesting info for those interested. Anatol ---- Start of Message 25005 ---- From: Pierre Fogal Date: 1997-08-27 11:34:00 Subject: Re: Vikings for the hearing impaired Addressed to: ritter@p... oldtools@l... ** Reply to note from ritter@p... Wed, 27 Aug 1997 06:14:38 -0700 Stu and Bob discussed ways of detecting the proper spot for Vikings using 'scopes and mics. Some one else (my apologies for having forgotten who) said they used a two pin moisture meter and looked for wild variations .... Well, both of these approaches sound far too much like work around here. Not at all galootish .... but wait! I do have a nice old flying spot galvanometer sitting on my shelf so perhaps if I hooked it up in series with a current source I could probe the board looking for flucutions. Flucuations in conductivity should be proportional to the moisture content and therefore be equivalent to the moisture meter trick above. Best part is I get to use an old tool, and if its a highly stressed the strobe effect will be nice too ... Regards, Pierre Dr. Pierre Fogal Physics Dept., University of Denver Denver, CO, USA. ---- Start of Message 25006 ---- From: James Foster Date: 1997-08-27 17:38:00 Subject: Re: Wood screws Carl Murphy wrote: > > Can anyone help, I'm looking for two 1 1/2" wood screws and nuts for a new > maple bench I am building, is there anyone who makes these anymore, or does > anyone sell 1 1/2" tap&die for wood. Carl Murphy wrote: > > My apologies to the group. I thought (WTB) could be posted anytime, and > (FS) was restricted to the first monday of the month, I was wrong. I > apologize again. > Okay, I'll bite. The original text reads to me like a "does anyone sell this stuff" request, but the followup sounds like Carl got his hand slapped for dealing off of FMM. What's the scoop? The request sounded legitimate to me. BTW, either Lee Valley or WoodCraft (ya read enough catalogs and stuff starts to blur together B^)) sell taps/dies for wood, and I think they went up to 1 1/2". ---- Start of Message 25007 ---- From: KEMPINSKI, ROBERT M. (JSC-OS) Date: 1997-08-27 17:59:00 Subject: Stanley 358 Miter Box Thanks all for the input on the miter box. Due to the great info, I have laid out a course of action. Regards, Rob Kempinski Lurking in Houston >---------- >From: KEMPINSKI, ROBERT M. (JSC-OS) >Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 1997 6:04 PM >To: 'Old tools' >Subject: Stanley 358 Miter Box > >GG, > >Ran across a Stanley 358 Miter box the other day. It was at an antique >store and in rough shape. It had a SW mark on it. The vertical posts >were loose, the surfaces well worn, the length stops missing (the width >stops were there), rusty, and the Disston saw handle was missing the >bottom half and wrapped in electrical tape. Walthers says this is >worth $50 to 150. They were asking $189. Can these be readily had such >that I can forget this one or do I need to really bargain with the >antique dealer. > >I could really use this tool for an upcoming project. > >Rob Kempinski >Lurking in Houston > >---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25008 ---- From: Mike DeLong Date: 1997-08-27 17:59:00 Subject: Re: Tooling in the Southwest On Aug 27, 9:02am, David Hegedusich wrote: > Welcome to Texas, pardner. > > After the oil bust of the early 80's, we're doing all we can to generate > a little revenue! > > David > Who's favorite Texas town is Old Dime Box I've always had the desire to live in Uncertain, Texas 8-) Since I live just a few miles from a small town that bills itself as the antique capital of Texas, I know where Bill is coming from with his statement of 'absolutely outRAgeous' prices on old tools in Texas. Around the first of the year I frequented one of the local establishments with SWMBO. I saw a Stanley #4, 3 pat. date & frog adjustment screw, with a tag saying $55 - firm. It was in one of those multi-vendor consignment type joints. The knob was missing, the cheek cracked, the tote in two pieces, and no blade. If anybody is interested, I bet it is still there 8-) Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike DeLong Voice: (214) 768-2802 Director of Endowment Management Fax: (214) 768-3786 Southern Methodist University Internet: mdelong@m... 6425 Boaz Lane Suite 202B Dallas, TX 75275-0193 ---- Start of Message 25009 ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1997-08-27 18:58:00 Subject: Re: why the hollow backs on japanese edge tools? On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Doug Dawson wrote: > > Earlier Andrew wrote, >> > This is obviously a single-bevel knife, right? > Every time you sharpen the tool, you sharpen both the bevel > and the back. The hardness of the Japanese metal makes it > advantageous the minimize the area of metal that has to be > removed from the back in order to do this - hence the hollowing. Perhaps I misunderstand something basic about sharpening, but maybe not. If you take a single-bevel tool -- marking knife, plane blade, or chisel -- and flatten and polish the back, and then sharpen a sharp edge at the intersection of the bevel's face and the back, and then dull the edge through use, why would resharpening entail reflattening and repolishing the back side? This would seem to ultimately lead to a double-bevel tool. I don't do that on any Western tool, and I don't see why I'd need to on the Japanese knife in question. Rather, for any tool with this side profile which needs a sharpening touch-up | | | | | / | / |/ what I'd do is hone/polish the bevel (or the micro-secondary bevel), and then remove any miniscule wire edge from the back side with a couple passes on a fine abrasive. The total area of the plane on the tool's overall back side (smaller for a Japanese-style blade than for a Western one) seems utterly irrelevant, since the wire edge in question is going to involve the portion of the blade that is, for *both* blade types, flat across the back of the edge. The only difference still seems to me to be that, once resharpening has occurred enough times, one must adjust the metal of the Japanese blade in a significant way, as Colin Montoya-Lewis' post discusses. This adjustment may be necessitated by brittleness of steel, but come on, how hard and brittle and in-need-of-delicate-banging-so-we-don't-crack-it should a marking knife be? -- Andrew (still convinced this marking knife is a waste of fine steel) ---- Start of Message 25010 ---- From: Doug Dawson Date: 1997-08-27 19:23:00 Subject: Re: why the hollow backs on japanese edge tools? Earlier Andrew wrote, > On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Doug Dawson wrote: > > Earlier Andrew wrote, > >> > > This is obviously a single-bevel knife, right? > > > Every time you sharpen the tool, you sharpen both the bevel > > and the back. The hardness of the Japanese metal makes it > > advantageous the minimize the area of metal that has to be > > removed from the back in order to do this - hence the hollowing. > > Perhaps I misunderstand something basic about sharpening, but > maybe not. If you take a single-bevel tool -- marking knife, > plane blade, or chisel -- and flatten and polish the back, and > then sharpen a sharp edge at the intersection of the bevel's > face and the back, and then dull the edge through use, why would > resharpening entail reflattening and repolishing the back side? > This would seem to ultimately lead to a double-bevel tool. You don't have to reflatten the back, because it's already flat. There are several things to consider here: 1) just because something is polished now, and results in a sharp edge, does not mean that polished edge is gonna be polished next month. Metal rusts, and it rust microscopically very quickly, even if you can't see it with the naked eye, and this dulls edges _fast_. It doesn't matter if it's a western or a Japanese tool, altho the anti-corrosion alloys of some cheaper western tools can mask this somewhat, at the expense of sharpenability. 2) When you polish the bevel, that's not enough to get a truly sharp edge, because in the process of doing so you've "brushed out" the metal along the bevel to a level somewhat below the plane of the back, which weakens the edge. Cleaning it up by doing some further polishing of the back tends to rectify this. 3) You're not gonna get a double bevel tool, because both your iron and your sharpening stone are flat, and you've gone to lengths to make sure that is so. ( See below. ) > I don't do that on any Western tool, and I don't see why I'd need > to on the Japanese knife in question. Rather, for any tool with > this side profile which needs a sharpening touch-up > > | | > | | > | / > | / > |/ > > what I'd do is hone/polish the bevel (or the micro-secondary > bevel), and then remove any miniscule wire edge from the back > side with a couple passes on a fine abrasive. That's gonna give you a double bevel more readily than the above, _depending_ on how it's applied. Then again, we may be talking about something somewhat similar, because when I talk about polishing the back, I'm not talking about a major operation in any way. > The total area of > the plane on the tool's overall back side (smaller for a > Japanese-style blade than for a Western one) seems utterly > irrelevant, since the wire edge in question is going to involve > the portion of the blade that is, for *both* blade types, flat > across the back of the edge. > > The only difference still seems to me to be that, once > resharpening has occurred enough times, one must adjust the metal > of the Japanese blade in a significant way, as Colin > Montoya-Lewis' post discusses. This adjustment may be > necessitated by brittleness of steel, but come on, how > hard and brittle and > in-need-of-delicate-banging-so-we-don't-crack-it should a marking > knife be? If you mean the whole "tapping out" thing, that's never necessary if the tool has been properly cared for, i.e. unless it's been damaged in some way ( doesn't have to be intentional, ) or unless the progress of the back as you're sharpening the tool has been neglected. So you should give a little polish to the back of the tool every time you polish the bevel, and you won't have to think about it. > -- Andrew (still convinced this marking knife is a waste > of fine steel) These things tend to require a sensitive touch. I won't let anyone else use my hand-made saws, e.g. - no way. Doug Dawson dawson@p... ---- Start of Message 25011 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-27 19:14:00 Subject: Re: Moulding plane identification One of the techniques I've found that works sometimes with very difficult to read or non-visible marks in end grain of planes, is the use of a "black light". I first use alcohol to remove "gunk" from the area where mark is expected and try the black light illumination of the area. It is sometimes quite striking in what is evidenced. I suspect it is because residual debris is embedded in the mark and "fluoresces" diferently than the non marked wood. For example, I would never have suspected that a plane I had was an "Elsmore" without the use of this technique. The mark was not visible without black light luminscence! --ErvSaws On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:44:28 -0700 David Hunkins drhunk@c... writes: >At 10:31 PM 8/26/97 -0700, John Hunt wrote: > > > >>Random tidbit fron the back of my mind. Logging companies mark their > >>logs with a sledge hammer-like stamp on the endgrain of the log. >They do >>this because is disrupts the fibers of the wood several feet into the > >>log (so I was told). This means that if you cut a foot off of the >log and >>put your stamp there, they could tell whose log it was originally. >> >>That's what I remember from who-knows-where. Now, who wants to tell >me >>how they can recover the ID of the original stamp? Then we might >have a >>way of recovering lost makers marks. > >GG's, > >Part I ----> > >This first reminds me of several planes I've seen that have *very* odd >looking maker marks. My conclusion has grown into the following: >plane >owners occasionally wanted the mark of the previous maker/hardware >store/owner to be gone, and they accomplished this by planing it off. >Even >though the surface of the toe became flat, the act of making the >imprinting >the stamp *did* "disrupt" the wood fibers. Some of these "shaved" >planes >were stored or exposed to whatever moisture conditions were necessary >to >raise this compressed grain above the flattened surface. The result is >an >imprint that stands proud of the toe's surface ... a reversal of sorts >in >that the areas that were pushed below the surface when the plane was >stamped are now the ones that stand above the surface. It's kind of a >ghostly image when you're used to seeing its opposite ... the once >incuse >becomes embossed, or the background of the embossed imprint now stands >above the letters. Anybody else recall seeing imprints like this? > >I imagine the same forces are at play as when I use the old trick of a >wet >cloth and an old clothes iron to raise a dented surface in a piece of >furniture I'm making. I'm almost certain that knowledgeable technical >scientific minds will fill in the holes of my "explanation". > >But Ladies & Gentlemen ... can I be confident that y'all won't go out >raisin' the grain on molding plane toes to decipher a weak mark. >Heaven >forbid and help you all if I'm responsible for destruction based on >this >post! Ok ... I trust you ...... [wipes sweat from brow] .... Just >sharing >thoughts here. > >On to part II -----> > >There was an article in either the M-WTCA or EAIA publication within >the >last 5 years talking about a newly discovered Francis Nicholson mark >that >had a dot instead of a star between the "F" and the Nicholson. I think >it >was on a Bob Wheeler plow ... no matter (actually it probably mattered >a >ton to Bob!) What I'm recalling is a computer graphic enhancement >process that Ben Blumenberg (a once prolific collector/dealer from >Maine) >and his software company used to take quite a weak imprint to the >point of >being able to reconstruct what the original crisp imprint had looked >like. >I can't believe that this has eluded me till now!! I've only owned a >PC for >4 years, so it was before then ... I remember thinking to myself that >it >would be worth having a computer just to be able to do that! Hell ... >I >guess I got bogged down trying to figure out Windows 3.1 in the >beginning >and didn't have any time for important stuff. > >But here I am in the midst of the geekiest, computer literate bunch of >tool >fanatics in the world. Do we need to bring in the same resources >needed by >law enforcement to do this image enhancement stuff? You people have to >get >on top of this! I've got a decent PC and a scanner ... what software >does >one need, and how does the process work?? This is exciting!! Just like >the >movies when they keep zooming the image, the dude at the keyboard >types >wildly, the image becomes clearer .... Please, is this science fiction >or >can we do this at home? > >How am I gonna get any sleep now that the adrenaline is pumping? > >David > >---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25012 ---- From: Stu Ritter Date: 1997-08-27 19:14:00 Subject: Rocky Mountain Meet Gentle Folk; Well now..Jason is coming (the infamous galootapalooza producer), Pierre and Stu will be there...(them's the physicist and the mechanic). Who else gonna be there. Any of you other list-o-phytes gonna make it??? Stu a user ---- Start of Message 25013 ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1997-08-27 19:45:00 Subject: Re: Saw and Infill questions Jim Spallin asks... ..snip.. (<-- remembering to "edit severely") >What are good ways to hold the in-fill in in-fill planes? Pins, > CA glue, ... What ways would you recommend against and why???< Well, I'm sure the other members of the planemakera anonymous group will also jump in, but I'd stay away from glues. I suppose a modern epoxy will give a sound wood/metal join, but maybe *too* good, and by holding both sides of the infill prevent any wood movement (exaggerating to make a point) I'd go for pins. couple of cross steel or brass/bronze pins, riveted and filed flush. They're reversible by drilling out if necessary, and allow the wood to just slide around if it travels from Alaska to Texas. Just my two denari... Richard Who thinks its about time we made the viking explanation an annual event - like morticing and cuting dovetails etc. ---- Start of Message 25014 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-27 20:13:00 Subject: Re: Wood screws Carl Murphy wrote: > > Can anyone help, I'm looking for two 1 1/2" wood screws and nuts for a new > maple bench I am building, is there anyone who makes these anymore, or does > anyone sell 1 1/2" tap&die for wood. source for the screws: Crystal Creek Mill Wood Products P.O. Box 41 DeWitt, NY 13214 (315) 446-1229 ---- Start of Message 25015 ---- From: Colin Montoya-Lewis Date: 1997-08-27 20:55:00 Subject: Re: why the hollow backs on japanese edge tools? > > The only difference still seems to me to be that, once > resharpening has occurred enough times, one must adjust the metal > of the Japanese blade in a significant way, as Colin > Montoya-Lewis' post discusses. This adjustment may be > necessitated by brittleness of steel, but come on, how > hard and brittle and > in-need-of-delicate-banging-so-we-don't-crack-it should a marking > knife be? > I agree. That's why I bought one of Hock's knives. Works great, but doesn't require as much maintenance.-Colin ---- Start of Message 25016 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-27 20:58:00 Subject: pointy ended adz GG A few days ago someone asked about a tool that looked like an adz that came to a point at the business end. It might be a picaroon (English sappie, Jeff), a tool used by timber handlers to stick in the end of a piece of timber to shift it. See Salaman's "Dictionary of Woodworking Tools" under timber handling tools. Sorry to take so long to remember where I saw it. Malcolm Dick ---- Start of Message 25017 ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1997-08-27 23:54:00 Subject: wages at the forge This is just one of those bits of trivia. Watching public TV the other night and there was a sword-maker from England both demonstrating his craft and telling some history re. weapon-making. His estimate was that a good sword cost a warrior about $20,000.00 (it might have been pounds..not sure) but a LOT of dough in any event! I hope all of our smithy's are making those kinds of wages.... it's obviously a LOT of hours at the forge getting a blade into shape..... worth being compensated well for... Tom ---- Start of Message 25018 ---- From: Carl Murphy Date: 1997-08-27 23:54:00 Subject: RE: Wood Screw Thanks to everyone who got back to me to where I could get wood screw, I think I will go that rout, to the people who jumped all over me, well what can I say. I thought my request was for information, Maybe I went about it wrong with the (WTB) in front of my subject, but if your going to slap someones hand, maybe it should be posted so all can see, not privately. maybe we all can learn from the mistakes. and maybe we should let the list mother do the slapping. Carl Murphy Eastport, Maine ---- Start of Message 25019 ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1997-08-28 00:47:00 Subject: bronze capped 110? A little gloat and a question..... I picked up a #110 today for $3...little hand hole drilled in it...homemade front knob....stubby little blade.... was the circular Stanley Rule and Level Co. logo. What it DOES have in a nice bronze lever cap. I've heard others mention these caps and always as if they were homemade. I'm starting to wonder about that. Could it be that Stanley sold a lever cap made of bronze to replace the ones that were getting dropped and broken? I mean, how many people are going to go out and recast a lever cap? Just wondering... oh yeah, the rest of the mini-gloat....got a nice Stanley claw hammer; two Rigid pipe wrenches, a rubber mallet, a Stanley Combination square WITH intact level and scribe...a couple of BIG ball peen hammers (20 oz) like new... $25 for the lot....kinda fun, but still not a Sweetheart #62 for a buck... Tom ---- Start of Message 25020 ---- From: Larry Williams Date: 1997-08-28 00:47:00 Subject: Re: the FTJ Leaning Wedge Article Patrick Leach wrote: >tkissam@c... (Todd Kissam) writes: > > > > >Not an accident! > > Dunno about that, Todd. I wish Patrick was right, I'm sure that everyone understands how anomilies relate to the value of planes. I wouln't mind at all if they proved to be incredibly rare and might even offer them to Patrick at a handsome profit. But they're not rare or even unusual. We do, however, have a good number of planes, by different makers and from different time periods, that have the features we told about in the article. Bill and I will be at the SWTCA meet in Tulsa tomorrow evening and we'll bring along a few planes and the article. We plan to bring our Mosely set of H&R's just because it shows how consistent the leaning wedge is within an unusually large set. I'm sure there will be plenty of other planes to check at the meet too. Looking forward to it. Larry Williams who hopes that, in the future, when someone on the list goes to great lengths to discredit something people will ask why ---- Start of Message 25021 ---- From: William K. Taggart Date: 1997-08-28 04:55:00 Subject: Re: Vikings for the hearing impaired Tom Holloway wrote: > > GGs-- > Tank gunnery? Pistol range? Who's gonna fess up that they lost > their hearing from too many hours in a closed space with roaring Normite > monsters? > Tom Holloway, > who doesn't *really* want to get to deep into this hearing loss thing ;-) > Eh? Whatsat ya say? Huh? - Bill ---- Start of Message 25022 ---- From: William K. Taggart Date: 1997-08-28 05:09:00 Subject: Tooling in the southwest Follow-up... I forgot to mention that I passed through Bailey county... - Bill (who now knows what the whatsit was (thanks, guys), and now thinks he shoulda splurged for ten bucks just to have it...) ---- Start of Message 25023 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 04:43:00 Subject: Vikings and hammers Item Subject: Text Item Paddy, What does the mighty galoot recommend for hunting Vikings? Is there some relationship between the type of hammer used to hunt the Viking location and the resonance/amplitude? I'm thinking of how an antique marimba (or is it a xylophone?) sounded as Aaron hit the keys with the different types of hammers. Quite different in timber between them... So do you recommend a cobblers hammer, wooden mallet, tack hammer or deadweight? I would think that something filled with shot that would not generate sympathetic resonances would work best. Bruce Who doesn't understand what the difference between a marimba and a xylophone either... ---- Start of Message 25024 ---- From: Aaron R. Ionta Date: 1997-08-28 05:33:00 Subject: Re: Vikings and hammers While we are on the subject of viKINGS what about viQUEENS.??? did the women of the day use viQUEENS to darn socks ? or was that sweaters? you know that them darn viKINGS worn out a lot of socks pillageing and plundering for all that old Bronz age stuff. Maybee Patrick had some of those goodies hidden in his inner sanctum. can you say what did Bruce have in his haul? Just Say (TM PL) what the heck am I still doing at work at this hour???? aaron ---- Start of Message 25025 ---- From: Jeff Gorman Date: 1997-08-27 21:59:00 Subject: RE: Infill questions On Wednesday, August 27, 1997 12:48 AM, Ernie Fisch [SMTP:ernfisch@p...] wrote: > > >Minute lateral adjustments can be made by holding > > >the > > blade assembly in the left hand, while nudging >the > > > > lever left or right with the thumb or forefinger. > > Ray will be happy with his own way of doing things, > > > > but the more standard practice is to sight down the > > > > plane from the toe, holding the front with one hand > > > > and operating the setting mechanisms with the other > > > > while observing the edge as it appears through the > > > > mouth. > > I make the final lateral adjustment after taking a > swipe with the plane. > After doing my best with the eyeball I look at the > shaving and if thicker on > one side than the other move the lever (oh so > slightly) in that direction. > Gets to be a pretty fine adjustment. If one has a cambered iron, as one should, 8-), then a correctly balanced lateral adjustment will bring the shaving out of the centre of the shaving aperture (assuming that one is planing on a broad surface). Jeff -- Jeff Gorman - West Yorkshire Jeff@m... ---- Start of Message 25026 ---- From: David Hunkins Date: 1997-08-28 09:16:00 Subject: Leaning wedges Y'all, I am regretfully late in jumping onto this topic, although I intended to be an early contributor. I've known that this was coming, and I still am unprepared with a concise response and a concrete opinion. My apologies to Larry for not picking up the ball sooner when I know he was expecting me. >From what I know of Larry Williams & his partner Bill Clark, they took an unexpected turn when deciding to make a wooden plane. After taking a class from Tod Herrli and reading available books and articles, I think it surprised them that so much of the old planemaker lore has been unrecorded and lost. It may be that only those who have attempted to manufacture New Old Tools have been in a position to think about and discover what Larry & Bill have noticed. Betcha MacGeek has learned things about wooden spokeshaves that thousands of woodworkers who know how to use them successfully haven't needed or wanted to think about. It must have taken a different perspective ... from someone trying to make a molding plane ... to focus on this leaning wedge configuration. Thousands of molders have been handled by the best minds in Antique Tools over lots of years. If it was noticed it has been considered trivial and never written about or given any weight as important till now. I'm glad they noticed and thought about it and wrote about it. I think I'll give it a chance. I've looked over hundreds of molders in the last few months. I see leaning and I see no leaning. I see some, but very little leaning the wrong way. I'm having trouble deducing a pattern, but I see it often enough so that I don't think it's random and I don't think it's accidental or reckless or sloppy. IMHO, this ain't no coincidence ... but I have questions as to why. First, I've never attempted to make a molding plane. I'll glady concede that it must be a bear of a job to make a plane properly. Look at one closely and think about what it takes to lay everything out, fashion a tapered iron, cut the mortise and fit the wedge to hold everything just so. So my first question is, if this method of cutting the mortise and fitting the wedge was a grande shortcut ... why didn't it catch on with everyone? I'd be interested in a regional correlation or a pattern that fits into a certain time period. I'm not seeing one. Maybe something will fall into place after everyone examines their shelves. I'd also be interested in hearing Larry (or anyone else who has made a molding plane) compare the process of making one both ways. Maybe someone who made many planes each day didn't feel the need for this "shortcut". Seems like it might be a quicker route to a good quality fit, but maybe it's not at all? I'd like to hear ... hell, I might have to finally try making a plane myself to carry on the family tradition :-) Here are some other observations: A. I find that the leaning wedge is much more often seen on hollows and rounds. B. Less often seen on molders and planes with an integral fence. C. It is much more often seen on narrow planes. D. I find that even on planes that do *not* have a leaning wedge that the wall of the blind side mortise is often "dished" ... just like me "undercutting" slightly when I chop to the shoulder line when making dovetails ... that shortcut to insure a good fit where it counts. E. I see it on a plane (Tho.Grant / New:York) c.1755 and on planes by various makers who worked on through to the last quarter of the 1800's. I'm not observing a correlation to time period. G. My data pool does not consist of planes that were made in a wide sampling of locations. Can't observe any regional correlation. H. Some of the thinner wedges that appear to be leaning are actually slightly curved in length. Something that might be momentarily wise would be to separate the issue of blind side bevels and percentage of arc cut by H/R's, etc. It may be ultimately connected ... but it seems to be clouding the leaning wedge mortise shortcut stuff. Might be a corollaries to the theory, but we might not be able to prove the theory yet ;-) My personal opinion, however little it's worth these days, is that this is a cool thing. These leaning wedges may not turn out to be the Rosetta Stone of wooden planes, but it's worth noting and thinking about and discussing. No one is trying to win the Nobel Prize here. Hell ... it's an observation. Maybe we're not ready to draw conclusions yet, but it ain't nothin' to get anybody's panties in a twist about. Don't we think that there must be legitimate "secrets" and knowledge and shortcuts to be discovered and relearned by those who are stepping back and making New Old Tools? I think that whatever of value and importance comes from these Williams/Clark observations, that they should be applauded for having the right attitude and trying to share their discoveries. David *who hopes more discussion is generated elsewhere about this topic than has been seen here on the Porch. ---- Start of Message 25027 ---- From: Bramel, Jim Date: 1997-08-28 11:40:00 Subject: Yard Sale again Bought some wooden planes last night. Three of them are listed here. Anyone know anything about them? Molding plane - S. SLOOP Round - W. SCOTT in a box, PITTSB. in a separate but same size box and a much larger SR in a box. I got other hollows and rounds marked the same way with the SR. The person I got them from thought this was for Southern Railway. Skewed Rabbet (I think) - MARTEN DOSCHER NEW YORK - is this a maker or user owner name? Thanks, Jim Jim Bramel - University of Kentucky - jbram00@p... ---- Start of Message 25028 ---- From: Bramel, Jim Date: 1997-08-28 12:00:00 Subject: Saws Got two saws last night. One is a beautiful little Atkins, 20" long. There are some pieces of the etching/engravings that I just cannot make out. In a circle around the Atkins logo there is "ATKINS ALWAYS ????D". Cannot make out the third word except for the D. Also under all of this logo, address, patent info, etc. is what appears to be "DAMASKEENED MARK". Is this really DAMASKEENED and is maybe TRADE to the left of it? Gave $3.00 for this one. The other is Disston. Marked - DISSTON 1840 1940 (Shape of Airplane) (Keystone) (Scales) NINETEEN FORTY SPECIAL Henry Disston & Sons Inc. Philadelphia Is this one anything special as saws go? Couldn't get this one cheap. Had to (didn't have to bud did) give $8.00 for this one. Thanks, Jim Jim Bramel - University of Kentucky - jbram00@p... ---- Start of Message 25029 ---- From: Garrett Spitzer Date: 1997-08-28 14:09:00 Subject: Vikings? This whole thing sounds like some "snipe" joke... sinking Dutchmen.... buried Vikings. A serious question ... is this similar to what you do to stop a crack in metal; you drill a hole at the tip of the crack. The stress at the end of a crack is directly proportional to the radius of curvature at the vary tip; thus if you increase the radius by drilling a hole at the end, you greatly reduce the stress. It makes sense that you could locate this point by tapping the board; high stress=high pitch.... just stretch a guitar string to see. Sorry... geeky engineer kicking in ... back to mind numb shaving shuffler mode... Regards, Garrett ---- Start of Message 25030 ---- From: Douglas A. Marshall Date: 1997-08-28 12:42:00 Subject: Central MI report and questions GGs, SWMBO and I took our annual trip to central (bay city) Michigan to visit the ILs last week. Living down here in the tool-deprived south land, I always look forward to the trip as a chance to plunder the spoils of the tool-rich industrial northland. This year, we decided to stay close to home - eschewing side trips to Mattawan, Traverse, etc. as in previous years. On the way up, however, I decided to stop by Dexter, MI to see the Neil Stoll's Old tool shack there. Nice place, but I realized while there that it's just not as much fun to grab what you want off the shelf and plunk down the bucks. The only thing that really tempted me was a box of assorted 113s (and 13s) going for $100 ea. I decided to wait and see what that $100 would get me off the beaten path, and stop by to get the 113 on the way back if nothing better came along. To make it short, with just a little bit of traveling - notably to Tom Gibb's barn near Clare - and a bit of hagging ( I offered one guy $3 for a brace, he examined it carefully and countered with $2) - that same $100 yielded: #4-1/2 type 5 #5 type 9 #7 type 8 #102 #65 One nice rip saw (Clemson of Middletown, NY, anyone know it ?) One rosewood 6" sweep brace. One rosewood 14" sweep brace. (both of these are marked "H.S.B.& Co." - anyone know who this is?) One nice chippewa arrowhead One nice steel bucket (hey, they are TOOLS, aren't they?) All in good condition. Needless to say, I didn't go by to get the #113 on they way back. Just hoping you Galoots in the land of iron and steel appreciate what you've got...... Thanks, Doug Doug Marshall "...and never imagine there is reason to be Greenwood, VA proud of anything that may be accomplished dam4t@v... by patience and sandpaper. " - John Ruskin ---- Start of Message 25031 ---- From: Douglas A. Marshall Date: 1997-08-28 12:49:00 Subject: "B" & "S" castings ? GG's With the acquisition of the #4-1/2, #5,  while in MI, I now have a total of 10 low-knob bench planes, along with a handfull of similar-era block planes and others (#71, #78, shaves). Most of these have a "B" casting mark on the castings, a few have the "s". I know I've seen that these are foundary marks from a foundary Stanley was using at teh beginning of the century. Since I seem to, by default, be turning into a "B" collector, I'd be interested in anything anyone out there can tell me about this foundary, it's location, years of operation, and any other tidbits. Hearty Grunts of Thanks in Advance, Doug Doug Marshall "...and never imagine there is reason to be Greenwood, VA proud of anything that may be accomplished dam4t@v... by patience and sandpaper. " - John Ruskin ---- Start of Message 25032 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 12:58:00 Subject: Re: Central MI report and questions Wow Doug, Nice haul for $100! That certainly makes visiting the IL's a much nicer trip (not to say it's not anyway, I get along better with my IL's than I do with my own). Steve Bussell "Douglas A. Marshall" dam4t@f... on 08/28/97 08:42:24 AM Please respond to dam4t@f... To: oldtools@l... cc: (bcc: Steve Bussell/Iris) Subject: Central MI report and questions GGs, SWMBO and I took our annual trip to central (bay city) Michigan to visit the ILs last week. Living down here in the tool-deprived south land, I always look forward to the trip as a chance to plunder the spoils of the tool-rich industrial northland. This year, we decided to stay close to home - eschewing side trips to Mattawan, Traverse, etc. as in previous years. On the way up, however, I decided to stop by Dexter, MI to see the Neil Stoll's Old tool shack there. Nice place, but I realized while there that it's just not as much fun to grab what you want off the shelf and plunk down the bucks. The only thing that really tempted me was a box of assorted 113s (and 13s) going for $100 ea. I decided to wait and see what that $100 would get me off the beaten path, and stop by to get the 113 on the way back if nothing better came along. To make it short, with just a little bit of traveling - notably to Tom Gibb's barn near Clare - and a bit of hagging ( I offered one guy $3 for a brace, he examined it carefully and countered with $2) - that same $100 yielded: #4-1/2 type 5 #5 type 9 #7 type 8 #102 #65 One nice rip saw (Clemson of Middletown, NY, anyone know it ?) One rosewood 6" sweep brace. One rosewood 14" sweep brace. (both of these are marked "H.S.B.& Co." - anyone know who this is?) One nice chippewa arrowhead One nice steel bucket (hey, they are TOOLS, aren't they?) All in good condition. Needless to say, I didn't go by to get the #113 on they way back. Just hoping you Galoots in the land of iron and steel appreciate what you've got...... Thanks, Doug Doug Marshall "...and never imagine there is reason to be Greenwood, VA proud of anything that may be accomplished dam4t@v... by patience and sandpaper. " - John Ruskin ---- Start of Message 25033 ---- From: Patrick Leach Date: 1997-08-28 13:30:00 Subject: Re: the FTJ Leaning Wedge Article williams@i... (Larry Williams) writes: >Ok, let's deal with that in a second. A lot of people here haven't >read this issue of the "Fine Tool Journal." That's too bad. Not so >much because of this article, but because Clarence Blanchard is >investing so much time, money and energy into making the FTJ the >kind of publication that everyone on this list should be reading. >I sure hope this little shooting match doesn't reflect on Clarence >or the magazine. Don't worry about Clarence and the FTJ. The FTJ has experienced much greater turmoil in its past than whatever light our duking it out publicly casts upon it. And despite its past turmoil, it sur- vived. It'll survive this, too. I think most readers are smart enough to recognize what's happening here in oldtools - a heated debate over what is presented as a scholarly article has erupted. If that's something that can't or shouldn't be discussed here, or even something that you don't wish to be discussed here, then the article's editor, Gary Roberts, shouldn't have been out trolling for hungry fish. >I was starting to wonder if you'd missed the whole point. Rest assure that I don't miss the point. What I do have a tough time understanding is the data you use to 'prove' your point. It's that that is making me scratch my head in confusion. When you feature the bevels on H&R's to bolster your 'thesis', and then you directly mention the bevel of common molding planes, I can't help but to comment on that and wonder what it is you're claiming. Just to make it clear to you - I understand that you wrote an article about leaning wedges on molding planes (a small subset, that you sampled). I do not doubt that wedges lean on planes. It's just your proofs and assumptions about them, along with some other issues regarding molding plane design, that I'm questioning. You specifically mention the bevels on hollows and rounds and why they are there. You also mention fenced molding planes (which would derive no benefit whatsoever with wedges fit to offset mortices). Both of these are fair game for questioning. You also hint at some ground- less standard that planes were stored without wedges. That, too, is open for discussion, and really should be discussed as it can be taken as gospel by some (if you recall, this point confused another reader), which would ultimately lead to an increase in the set of planes that don't have their original wedges or are missing their wedges altogether. >Another side bar like our thing with the blind side bevel of H&R's >is the question of storing the planes with the wedges in or out. >Rather than waste everyone's time, I think I'll just quote the article: > > "Several questions are raised by our assumptions. > > 1. Should moulding planes be stored with their wedges removed, > as was the case in early tool chests as suggested by Goodman > and the Tools and Trades History Society in their book _The Tool > Chest of Benjamin Seaton_? If the tension of the wedge against > the back of the mouth is critical, a wedge left in place for long > periods of time will eventually conform to the shape of the > mortise/escapement, thus eliminating the three-point tension. You aren't even quoting correctly what appeared in the publication. Let's not change the article's content in mid-stream, ok? Be that as it may, the above quotation pretty much discredits any benefit of leaning wedges as you describe them in the article. Your thesis can only work if the planes were stored without their wedges in place. As much as you want to believe that molding planes were stored without their wedges in place, that's simply not true. Hell, even that chump planemaker, Solon Rust, stored his planes as I describe (see Ken Roberts' second volume of _Wooden Planes in 19th Century America_). >As they have evolved, that's true. Now look at one from Granford, >Wooding, William Cogdell or any of the very early makers. There is >usually no bevel at all. No, there is no bevel, but the round of the sole is continued up along the left face of the plane so that it can still remain general purpose enough to cut greater sections of a circle, isn't it? Whether it's a bevel or a rounding, it still acomplishes the same thing. And, since you're using Goodman's as your gospel, recall that the author(s) claim that there is no certainty whether the sides of these early planes are original or whether they were modified at a later date. There simply aren't enough of them around to form a valid conclusion. And what of hollows wrought by the same hands of early makers you mention. How would their left sides be finished, in your opinion? > You and I can argue this all day, but I >think the bevel was originally added to give a visual reference for >the location of the iron. Maybe you think that it was the result of >some great leap or design advance, but I think it's simpler than that. I don't see it as a great leap or design advance, but something that's needed to make the plane work. Sorta like the presence of a fence on a normal molding plane, it's just something that is. If your idea has merit, why, then, don't center beads and reeding planes have a similar bevel? Afterall, they are really no different than a hollow or round during use. Shouldn't they, too, have a side bevel to permit easier viewing of the iron, using your logic? >Hmmm. There was a considerable amount of time from which many >British planes cut less than the 60 degree arc or 1/6 of a circle. 50 degrees, 70 degrees, 66.666 degrees, what's the difference? The planes are still general purpose whatever their sections, pro- vided that they have side bevels. But the fact remains, 1/6 of a circle was the common standard, and it shouldn't be alarming that some deviation should occur among hollows and rounds for the same reason one sees deviations in the layout of a common ogee or other profiles. Here's something else from the article that confuses me: "Our collection is too small to use as a baseline from which to extrapolate definitive answers. We referred to the toe-end profiles in _British Planemakers From 1700, 3rd. Ed., W. Goodman. If you assume the probable location of the inside edge of the mouth and the location of the mortise at the top of the plane, most of the narrow bodied planes made during and after John Cogdell's time (1750 to 1765) display angled wedge and mortise. We also noted that the bevel cut on the lower left side of hollows and rounds seems to appear at the same time. This feature would not seem to be a coincidence." Ignoring the part about the bevel, as it's already been beaten to death by yours truly, I must ask you how you can infer a leaning wedge from simple line drawings, where wedges aren't even drawn? Furthermore, which narrow molding planes in the book are you hypothesizing leaning wedges? I can tell you that it's highly probable each and every one of those molding planes has its wedge terminate in the slot cut into the fence, as I mentioned in another post. They don't need to have their wedge in tension, pressed against the fenced side of the mortice as per your theory, in order for them to deflect the shaving satisfactorily. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Leach Just say I smell quicksand. I'm outta here................ etc. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25034 ---- From: Carl Murphy Date: 1997-08-28 13:40:00 Subject: Re: Yard Sale again At 07:40 AM 8/28/97 -0400, Bramel, Jim wrote: >Bought some wooden planes last night. Three of them are listed here. >Anyone know anything about them? > >Molding plane - S. SLOOP > >Round - W. SCOTT in a box, PITTSB. in a separate but same size box and a > much larger SR in a box. I got other hollows and rounds marked > the same way with the SR. The person I got them from thought this > was for Southern Railway. > >Skewed Rabbet (I think) - MARTEN DOSCHER NEW YORK - is this a maker or user > > owner name? > >Thanks, > >Jim > >Jim Bramel - University of Kentucky - jbram00@p... > >Jim, This is according to A guide to the Makers of American Wooden Planes by Emil and Martyl Pollak, third edition. Marten Doscher-b. 1852 in NY was a New York City hardware and tool dealer, 1879-94-. A Marten Doscher advertisement appeared in an 1887 issue of Iron Age listing himself as a commission hardware dealer at 88 Chambers St., New York, and offering "G.W. Bradley's Edge Tools, Axes, Coopers' Tools, Cleavers, Bush Hooks, Draw Knives, Ship-Carpenters' Tools, &c. Also a full stock of Planes, Brooks' Bright Wire Goods, Washita Stone and Taunton Tack Co.'s Rivets, &c. FF > S. Sloop Samuel Sloop was born in Pennsylvania and made planes in Cincinnati, Ohio, 1829-40. He advertised in the 1837 Western address directory as a "Wood Screw and Plane Manufacturer." (one star) W. Scott William Scott was one of the earliest Pittsburgh, PA, planemakers. He was identified as a planemaker in an 1812 property purchase and was listed as a planemaker in the 1813 city directory and as late as the 1839 directory. Sometime between 1826 and 1837 he moved from Pittsburg City across the Allegheny River to "Allegheny Town" (now known as Pittsburgh's North Side), giving rise to the B imprint. (two stars for W. Scott Pittsbg) (three stars for W. Scott Pittsbg Allegheny Town) Couldn't finnd anything on S.R. Carl Murphy Eastport, Maine >---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25035 ---- From: dam4t@f... Date: 1997-08-28 13:40:00 Subject: Invite to Michigan bound Ga Invite to Michigan bound Galoots 8/28/97 Galoots, Reading Doug's central Michigan trip report and visit to Glenbrier Antiques in Dexter, MI made me suddenly and painfully realize that I have been remiss in not stating that I work about 4 miles and live about 12 miles away from that site, just off of I-94! It would be easy as falling off of the porch (should be thrown, given my lack of hospitality!) to set up a time at least for a cup of coffee or a pint of beer after work. So, here it is. If anyone traveling through Michigan and planning on a Glenbrier Antiques stop or otherwise, please hook up with me for old tools fun and festivities. Randy Forsch rforsch@u... Home 313 475-4273 Work 313 433-3110 -------------------------------------- Date: 8/28/97 8:46 To: Randy Forsch From: dam4t@f... GGs, SWMBO and I took our annual trip to central (bay city) Michigan to visit the ILs last week. Living down here in the tool-deprived south land, I always look forward to the trip as a chance to plunder the spoils of the tool-rich industrial northland. This year, we decided to stay close to home - eschewing side trips to Mattawan, Traverse, etc. as in previous years. On the way up, however, I decided to stop by Dexter, MI to see the Neil Stoll's Old tool shack there. Nice place, but I realized while there that it's just not as much fun to grab what you want off the shelf and plunk down the bucks. The only thing that really tempted me was a box of assorted 113s (and 13s) going for $100 ea. I decided to wait and see what that $100 would get me off the beaten path, and stop by to get the 113 on the way back if nothing better came along. To make it short, with just a little bit of traveling - notably to Tom Gibb's barn near Clare - and a bit of hagging ( I offered one guy $3 for a brace, he examined it carefully and countered with $2) - that same $100 yielded: #4-1/2 type 5 #5 type 9 #7 type 8 #102 #65 One nice rip saw (Clemson of Middletown, NY, anyone know it ?) One rosewood 6" sweep brace. One rosewood 14" sweep brace. (both of these are marked "H.S.B.& Co." - anyone know who this is?) One nice chippewa arrowhead One nice steel bucket (hey, they are TOOLS, aren't they?) All in good condition. Needless to say, I didn't go by to get the #113 on they way back. Just hoping you Galoots in the land of iron and steel appreciate what you've got...... Thanks, Doug Doug Marshall "...and never imagine there is reason to be Greenwood, VA proud of anything that may be accomplished dam4t@v... by patience and sandpaper. " - John Ruskin ---- Start of Message 25036 ---- From: Jay Sutherland Date: 1997-08-28 13:46:00 Subject: Re: Homeless on the Web Thanks so much to the two dozen or so Galoots who have offered storage space for my web pages. I'll be in touch with a few of you in the next two or three weeks regarding a transfer, etc. Jay -- Jay Sutherland |/| ** Gwen, jump. Good puppy! 113 Phillips Hall (,,) ** Ithaca, NY 14853 607/255-5034 o/ ---* gwenpup@i... jay@e... c==____(_ http://peta.ee.cornell http://peta.ee.cornell.edu/~jay/ \= .edu/~jay/gwen/ ---- Start of Message 25037 ---- From: Jay Sutherland Date: 1997-08-28 13:55:00 Subject: Oldtools in Alaska Galoots: In a few days I'll be heading off for Alaska to take a break, visit friends, and of course check out the wilderness. Are there any good sites for old tools there, either sources or historical places? Also, advice on what to see or do there is welcomed. Thanks! Jay P.S. I know there are some old tools up there, because a friend of mine sent me a rusty Stanley #36 that someone dropped in the Yukon River years ago. Forget panning for gold--I'm going panning for planes! -- Jay Sutherland |/| ** Gwen, jump. Good puppy! 113 Phillips Hall (,,) ** Ithaca, NY 14853 607/255-5034 o/ ---* gwenpup@i... jay@e... c==____(_ http://peta.ee.cornell http://peta.ee.cornell.edu/~jay/ \= .edu/~jay/gwen/ ---- Start of Message 25038 ---- From: Karl W. Sanger Date: 1997-08-28 14:08:00 Subject: List Bickers - Motivation Larry Williams wrote: >who hopes that, in the future, when someone on the list goes to >great lengths to discredit something people will ask why< I second the thought!! But, first understand I'm not shooshing anyone's thoughts, opinion or commentary. The "debate" that lead to Larry's comment is a proper activity for human conduct. Politeness or even mud, blood, gore and beer are fine tactics for the fight - er, debate. I'll join any argument I can - and I guess I just did. What I am submitting is that the "ask why" question - for the motivation for discrediting should not be limited to scholarly efforts. Included in the list of this Lists discreditings are collectors, Norm, conservation or "repainting", old saws versus a new saw, and tools with pigtails. Greed, ignorance, and ego have to be among the major causes. Well, at least this List does it more politely than others. That's good. It makes life on the List easier, a friendlier place to learn and share. And for those truly interested in learning about old tools - their use, the collecting and the tool fraternity that fulfills the popular pursuit, looking for the "hidden agenda" is critical to achieve a Summa Cum Laude. Fortunately for a "C" student like me, every time I submit a wise-*ss note to this list, I know precisely which one or all of those three or other causes made me do it. For those who don't see hidden agendas and believe that I'm cynical in my observations, I submit as my rock platform, a quote from George Bernard Shaw - "The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who haven't got it." Karl - who sees "discrediting" as an educational service, informative in many aspects ---- Start of Message 25039 ---- From: Glen Rea Date: 1997-08-28 14:12:00 Subject: Re: Rocky Mountain Meet Stu Ritter wrote: > > Gentle Folk; > > Well now..Jason is coming (the infamous galootapalooza producer), > Pierre and Stu will be there...(them's the physicist and the mechanic). > Who else gonna be there. Any of you other list-o-phytes gonna > make it??? > I'm planning on being there. -- Glen Rea Longmont, CO ---- Start of Message 25040 ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1997-08-28 14:11:00 Subject: Tool sources Galoots-- Doing a beta runthrough on Tom Price's newly minted Web page (I'll let Tom announce the URL when he's happy with it), I was directed to a link to the Electronic Neanderthal's sub-page on "Tool Sources," upgraded August 25, 1997. It now provides an updated and close-to-definitive response to that eternal lament: WHERE DO I FIND TOOLS? Check it out, at: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~alf/en/tools.html Tom Holloway, who really *must* stop looking for tools, and start making things. ---- Start of Message 25041 ---- From: David Hunkins Date: 1997-08-28 14:15:00 Subject: Re: Yard Sale again At 07:40 AM 8/28/97 -0400, Bramel, Jim wrote: >Bought some wooden planes last night. Three of them are listed here. >Anyone know anything about them? > >Molding plane - S. SLOOP > >Round - W. SCOTT in a box, PITTSB. in a separate but same size box and a > much larger SR in a box. I got other hollows and rounds marked > the same way with the SR. The person I got them from thought this > was for Southern Railway. > >Skewed Rabbet (I think) - MARTEN DOSCHER NEW YORK - is this a maker or user Jim, Sloop is a Cincinatti maker name, Scott (nice find!) is one of the earliest c.1810? Pittsburgh makers, and Doscher (quite common) was a NYCity hardware dealer in the last quarter of the 19th. c. Interesting info on the "SR" ... not often that initials they can be attributed to some-one/thing specific. A "rubbing" and a note to Mike Humphrey might be in order. He did a piece in a recent Catalog of American Wooden Planes on initial marks that we know something about. David ---- Start of Message 25042 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 14:18:00 Subject: Re: Central MI report and questions Gee Doug, Being a Michigander myself, I really hate it when a vacationer comes in and does better in a few days than I do in months. How come I never run into these places? Just my luck. Congratulations anyway. Dennis ---- Start of Message 25043 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 14:31:00 Subject: Parallel action pliers with side cutter Anyone know where I can get one these? My dad had one (a Barnard??) that was advertised as having a one ton bite. TIA ---- Start of Message 25044 ---- From: Bill Clouser Date: 1997-08-28 14:55:00 Subject: Re: Rocky Mountain Meet On Aug 28, 8:12am, Glen Rea wrote: > Subject: Re: Rocky Mountain Meet > Stu Ritter wrote: > > > > Gentle Folk; > > > > Well now..Jason is coming (the infamous galootapalooza producer), > > Pierre and Stu will be there...(them's the physicist and the mechanic). > > Who else gonna be there. Any of you other list-o-phytes gonna > > make it??? > > > > I'm planning on being there. I think I can make it - red hat and all. - Bill (Fort Collins CO) -- ---- Start of Message 25045 ---- From: Newbold Date: 1997-08-28 15:07:00 Subject: Re: Saws jbram00@p... (Bramel, Jim) asked about his two saws.... >Got two saws last night. > >One is a beautiful little Atkins, 20" long. There are some pieces of the >etching/engravings that I just cannot make out. In a circle around the >Atkins logo there is "ATKINS ALWAYS ????D". Cannot make out the third word >except for the D. Also under all of this logo, address, patent info, etc. >is what appears to be "DAMASKEENED MARK". Is this really DAMASKEENED and >is maybe TRADE to the left of it? Gave $3.00 for this one. > I have not seen any like that, but the one Atkins I have is a nice saw. >The other is Disston. Marked - > > DISSTON > >1840 1940 > > (Shape of Airplane) > (Keystone) > (Scales) >NINETEEN FORTY SPECIAL >Henry Disston & Sons Inc. Philadelphia > >Is this one anything special as saws go? I have a similar saw. The logo is not very readable, but is does say Centennial Special. Apparently this was in honor of 100 years of Disston saw production. The saw cuts very nicely even though the multi-piece handle is held together by a through bolt and has zero remaining original finish. The saw is also special to me since my father used it to make houses, including those houses where there was no electricity and all cuts were by hand. My father used to race his boss in cutting rafters with that saw. My Dad usually won the races. Oh yeah, I got it for nothing. :-) While we are talking about cheap saws, I should report that at a recent flea market, I found a 9 pt cross cut saw with a cracked carved apple handle and a perfect nib. It was sharp and cuts like a dream, better than some of the Disstons already on my saw rack. Unfortunately, some weannie had removed two saw nuts, including the logo nut. :-( Oh yeah, the blade is rust free, but dark and the Diamond Saw logo is just barely visible under the right light conditions. So, did I overpay at $1? ;^) Charlie Who cannot resist a good, cheap saw. ---- Start of Message 25046 ---- From: Robert Brazile Date: 1997-08-28 15:17:00 Subject: Re: List Bickers - Motivation Karl said, quite reasonably: >I submit as my rock platform, a quote from George Bernard Shaw - "The >power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who >haven't got it." Of course, one could argue that George's hidden agenda was to defend his cynicism. :-) Robert "Cynicism is often called the power of accurate observation by cynics." -Robert Brazile, just now. ---- Start of Message 25047 ---- From: James Foster Date: 1997-08-28 15:22:00 Subject: Re: wages at the forge Tom Johnson wrote: This is just one of those bits of trivia. Watching public TV the other night and there was a sword-maker from England both demonstrating his craft and telling some history re. weapon-making. His estimate was that a good sword cost a warrior about $20,000.00 (it might have been pounds..not sure) but a LOT of dough in any event! I hope all of our smithy's are making those kinds of wages.... it's obviously a LOT of hours at the forge getting a blade into shape..... worth being compensated well for... Wish I'd seen it. Wonder how the price was figured out. One contributing factor would, of course, be the high cost of getting the steel in the first place. Modern smiths don't have that problem. The better forges and trip hammers also make a lot of the work go faster. Still, a good sword can be several thousand dollars on up. The work of the top smiths like Jim Hrisoulas is in high demand. Don't know what the sword he did for the Emir of Kuiwait went for, but it wasn't cheap. If you like blades you should page through his books. He might have a web page too. You can get a servicable, plain jane sword from other bread and butter makers for around $500. More on the old tools aspect: So what would be the price of some of the common, simple molding planes of the early 1800's translated into today's prices? Don't remember if Patrick or anyone else ever posted that type of info. 'Course, the value will depend on how you figure the monetary equivalency, but ballpark figures would still be interesting. ---- Start of Message 25048 ---- From: Bill Clouser Date: 1997-08-28 15:22:00 Subject: Vikings? On Aug 28, 7:09am, Garrett Spitzer wrote: > Subject: Vikings? > This whole thing sounds like some "snipe" joke... sinking Dutchmen.... Snipe is something else entirely. Take a look at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/1850 http://www.fortnet.org/Audubon/snipe.html and, of course http://www.snipe.org/ There's also the famous section of "Treasure Island", "Indeed, could anyone be more entirely lost than I? When the gun fired, how should I dare to go down to the boats among those fiends, still smoking from their crime? Would not the first of them who saw me wring my neck like a snipe's?" So, this "snipe" concept seems to have no Viking relationship to me. > A serious question ... is this similar to what you do to stop a crack in > metal; you drill a hole at the tip of the crack. The stress at the end > of a crack is directly proportional to the radius of curvature at the > vary tip; thus if you increase the radius by drilling a hole at the end, > you greatly reduce the stress. Ah, the "boring a hole to stop a crack issue" is raised again. We did discuss this on the porch some time ago, and the consensus was that it doesn't work in wood because wood is an anisotropic material and will tend to split along the grain, pretty much ignoring the presence of the hole. These holes are still used by some though, and I think they can be effective because they evacuate an area of the wood providing a bending moment for two sides of a slot to compress when driven into another piece of material. A wedged, locked handle in a neandermallet is one example where such a hole might be effective. - Bill (Just made a new mallet the other night in fact, with a new wedging condept. I might bring it up here sometime.) -- ---- Start of Message 25049 ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1997-08-28 15:33:00 Subject: Re: Wood Screw I have to say that I agree with Carl here.... I've seen all kinds of requests for sources and info during the month with no "hand-slapping".... In fact, I'm guilty! I once asked for sources for jewelers saw blades and got lots of helpful replies, public and private; no-one seemed to mind a bit. How 'bout a little grace here for those gray areas.... I mean, he wasn't exactly asking for a type 1 #49 or something.... I thought my request was for information, Maybe I went about it wrong with the (WTB) in front of my subject, but if your going to slap someones hand, maybe it should be posted so all can see, not privately. maybe we all can learn from the mistakes. and maybe we should let the list mother do the slapping. ---- Start of Message 25050 ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 1997-08-28 15:33:00 Subject: Re: List Bickers - Motivation On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Robert Brazile wrote: > Karl said, quite reasonably: > > >I submit as my rock platform, a quote from George Bernard Shaw - "The > >power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who > >haven't got it." > > Of course, one could argue that George's hidden agenda was to defend > his cynicism. :-) > > Robert > > "Cynicism is often called the power of accurate observation by cynics." > > -Robert Brazile, just now. Nice one, Robert. And my favorite quote of myself: "Luck is just opportunity meeting luck" The problem with lists, newsletters and journals is that anything written takes on an academic importance that almost always outweighs the intention. Without contributors, journals have no content. Without content, we'd have no arguments. Without arguments, we wouldn't have any information exchange. And without information exchange, we'd all still be releasing the damned lever caps on our planes before trying to set the depth adjustment. So, sometimes when we disagree, we get a little chuffed. We're big people, we can deal with it. The first few posts on this went way over my head, but now that I'm paying attention, I'd personally hate to see it die without further discussion, by anyone taking their ball and going home. One of the most difficult things to figure in any historicial pursuit is why things were done the way they were done, much less how. I appreciate Karl yanking our chains now and then (heh heh, you should see me yank his in e-mail), and he and others are responsible for me reconsidering my view of collectors (not that I'd ever admit it on my web site... ok, maybe I will someday). Paddy, trying to figure out how to adapt his routah into a viking cutter ---- Start of Message 25051 ---- From: Glen Rea Date: 1997-08-28 15:35:00 Subject: List Bickers - Motivation (fwd) Gentile Galoots: I guess I want to throw in my $0.02 here (probably worth a lot less than that). Keep in mind that I have no wooden planes and have as much experience with them. I had only the article and resulting discussion to form an opinion from. I know Karl only from discussions here, Larry only from his article and discussions here, and Patrick from discussions here and by email and as a customer. Karl W. Sanger wrote: > > Larry Williams wrote: > > >who hopes that, in the future, when someone on the list goes to > >great lengths to discredit something people will ask why< > > I second the thought!! I second the thought also but probably in a different way than Karl. I never saw the discussion (particularly Patrick's comments) as an attempt to discredit anyone. I did read the article, which I thought was very interesting, well done, and a cause for thought. One of my thoughts at the time was that the sample size was a bit small for my tastes and wondered what a bigger or different sample would yield. Patrick provided a different sample and indicated that the hypothesis may need some re-work. I also saw the angle of lean as a bit small (as an engineer, I would call the angle "down in the noise", meaning that this much lean could be a result of process variation due to the right-handedness or ham-fistedness of the plane maker, his assistants and apprentices). This is a point that Patrick made. The discussion on bevels sounded to me like an old-fashioned disagreement and was left at that. I'm not saying that I agree with Patrick or Larry in any case. I wish only to say that the points made by Patrick seemed to be to refute some (somewhat absolute) statements made in the article and by others afterwards. Larry's comment struck a bad cord with me as this is how I tend to react to someone telling me that I may have made an error in thinking or that they disagree with my thoughts or actions. We need to be careful to inspect feedback from others relative to our discussion and keep it seperate from our and their ego. This also applies to comments made during a discussion. > But, first understand I'm not shooshing anyone's thoughts, opinion > or commentary. The "debate" that lead to Larry's comment is a proper > activity for human conduct. Politeness or even mud, blood, gore and beer Ok, Patrick will never be considered politically-correct or kinder and gentiler (my scottish/irish heritage leads me down the same paths). He is willing to state his opinion/experience, even when it disagrees with someone (refreshing thing in this disgusting age of political correctness). I appreciate Larry being willing to continue the discussion started by the article and share his opinions and experiences with us. I appreciate everyone on this list that are willing to share their idea, experiences, and opinions. I wish I knew half or even 10% of what the people on this list know about tools, old or new. [snip] > Karl - who sees "discrediting" as an educational service, > informative in many aspects Both discrediting and claims of discrediting both as an educational service I gues the point I've been rambling about is that we need the type of discussion that has been taking place on this topic, even if it includes major disagreement. Please try to keep comments like the above and any that might cause the above out of the discussion as best we can. But please PLEASE jump in and tell us what you think or have seen. We need all opinions and comments, even if they are flat wrong like mine usually are. These discussions/arguments/sightings are why we are here. OBTW, you guys are doing your Vikings all wrong! ;-) -- Glen Rea - who will now slink back to his dark corner of the porch to lurk quietly again ---- Start of Message 25052 ---- From: Rodgers Charles Date: 1997-08-28 16:35:00 Subject: On The Cheap GGs: I "heard" a comment here on the porch the other day about a little trick I use and was heartened to see that I'm not the only one who does it (although, I must add, a little humbled to find I didn't discover it). A couple of recent posts talk about using disposable utility knife blades as mini-scrapers. I inherited a box of 100 blades (along with assorted other items including 50 lbs of drywall screws) when my son decided to get out of the flooring business and go back to school. Seems he emptied the back end of his cluttered Cherokee in my garage and told me to keep what I wanted and toss the rest. Anyway, I've found that they last surprisingly long as a light duty scraper and work better than I had expected. Not the ticket for large areas, but ya can't beat'em for tight spots and small areas. I usually use them "free-hand" but have been known to grab a fresh one with the small locking pliers and go at it. Anyone else found galootish applications for non-old tools that they would care to share?? Charlie ---- Start of Message 25053 ---- From: Douglas A. Marshall Date: 1997-08-28 15:51:00 Subject: Central MI auction alert! GG's I almost forgot - You galoots in MI might want to check this out. Tom Gibbs, of Loomis, who I got some good, cheap stuff off of has been dealing tools for about 20 years. During that time, his best customer was a neighbor, a Stanley collector who got first choice on all the prime stuff Tom came across. Well, the neighbor succumbed to Emphysema at a tragic 49, and much of his estate will be auctioned off on site in early Oct. Tom says that the guy running the auction is a putz - especially clueless about tools. Some of you guys in the area might want to check it out further. If you score anything nice, a small (say #2 size) cut to your source would be appreciated ;-). E-mail me if you want more info - it kills me that I won't be there for the sale, but maybe some lucky galoot will do well. Doug Doug Marshall "...and never imagine there is reason to be Greenwood, VA proud of anything that may be accomplished dam4t@v... by patience and sandpaper. " - John Ruskin ---- Start of Message 25054 ---- From: Robert Ibach Date: 1997-08-28 15:53:00 Subject: Texas Galoots If anyone is going to Canton this weekend, and you'd like to see some post drills, ping me and I'll tell you where to look. (At least I think they are post drills.) I don't know if they are complete or functional. One was marked $30 and another $40. There was one more with no price. All in the same place. Bob Ibach Dallas Theological Seminary rdi@t... ---- Start of Message 25055 ---- From: Randy Roeder Date: 1997-08-28 16:30:00 Subject: Re: List Bickers - Motivation I'm enjoying the leaning wedges controversy. It's so academic. Someone observes a phenomenon, sees a pattern and attempts to understand it. He develops a working hypothesis and reports it to colleagues. Disagreement is often swift and visceral. Over time, more data will be collected and a consensus will develop regarding the relative merits of the idea. After consensus has been reached, there will remain critics, who will continue to look for fallacies in the argument. The repaint/don't repaint argument, on the other hand, is purely political. Proponents of a viewpoint try to influence others with an eye to influencing behavior to a specific end -- in this case, maintaining the widespread availability of collectibles with characteristics perceived as desirable. Randy Roeder Who liked the Frank Klausz jig for regluing broken totes--but barfed at the buff & repaint. ---- Start of Message 25056 ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1997-08-28 16:40:00 Subject: Re: On The Cheap At 11:35 AM -0500 8/28/97, Rodgers Charles wrote: [snip] >Anyone else found galootish >applications for non-old tools that they would care to share?? Sure. Table of t*bles*w --> lapping/ScarySharp plate. Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 25057 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 16:37:00 Subject: Re: Saws The "AAA" is the Atkins slogan--"Atkins Always Ahead". "Damaskeened" was a treatment claimed by Atkins to be used on/in steel blade of saw. The "Airplane" logo on the Disston Keystone saw tells us it is the K-4 "Airmaster" model (.1935-) The 1840 Disston 1940 is the Disston Cenntenial Anniversary saw (celebrating Disston founding in 1840 their 100th anniversary). --ErvSaws On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:00:31 -0400 (EDT) jbram00@p... (Bramel, Jim) writes: >Got two saws last night. > >One is a beautiful little Atkins, 20" long. There are some pieces of >the >etching/engravings that I just cannot make out. In a circle around >the >Atkins logo there is "ATKINS ALWAYS ????D". Cannot make out the third >word >except for the D. Also under all of this logo, address, patent info, >etc. >is what appears to be "DAMASKEENED MARK". Is this really DAMASKEENED >and >is maybe TRADE to the left of it? Gave $3.00 for this one. > >The other is Disston. Marked - > > DISSTON > >1840 1940 > > (Shape of Airplane) > (Keystone) > (Scales) >NINETEEN FORTY SPECIAL >Henry Disston & Sons Inc. Philadelphia > >Is this one anything special as saws go? > >Couldn't get this one cheap. Had to (didn't have to bud did) give >$8.00 for >this one. > >Thanks, > >Jim > >Jim Bramel - University of Kentucky - jbram00@p... > >---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25058 ---- From: Pierre Fogal Date: 1997-08-28 16:37:00 Subject: Re: Leaning wedges Addressed to: drhunk@c... oldtools@l... ** Reply to note from drhunk@c... Thu, 28 Aug 1997 02:16:10 -0700 Most of David's thoughtful article is snipped. But he does raise an important issue here, for the possible definition of this > I'd be interested in a regional correlation or a pattern that fits into a > certain time period. I'm not seeing one. Maybe something will fall into > place after everyone examines their shelves. I'd also be interested in > hearing Larry (or anyone else who has made a molding plane) compare the > process of making one both ways. Maybe someone who made many planes each > day didn't feel the need for this "shortcut". Seems like it might be a > quicker route to a good quality fit, but maybe it's not at all? I'd like to > hear ... hell, I might have to finally try making a plane myself to carry > on the family tradition :-) Glen Rea has also commented earlier that as an engineer, he thinks a small angle is basically "in the noise" which could well be true. However, if this is the case, we ought to get a kind of Gaussian distribution of lean if we sample enough planes. If that peaks at zero, then statistically the arguement that the lean is accidental would have to carry a lot of weight. In other words, if it is accidental, looking at a large number of planes would show leans of varying amounts in _both_ directions. If it isn't then the distribution would be skewed, peaking at the predominate amount of lean. Collectively, we own a large number of planes. We can answer this question in a statistical sense at least .... Regards, Pierre Gosh this is beginning to sound like my day job .... Dr. Pierre Fogal Physics Dept., University of Denver Denver, CO, USA. ---- Start of Message 25059 ---- From: Gary Ilmanen Date: 1997-08-28 16:53:00 Subject: Viking versus Dutchmen On 27 Aug 97, Esther Heller, ready for FMM, wrote: > (Ray M:) > > > > I've been thinking about this. I have some really nice salvaged (very old) > > wood with _original_vikings_ in place. I was wondering if it might be > > possible to excavate the grave. > > When you remove the viking from its grave, please be _very careful_ > not to damage the textiles used as graveclothes... I think what Ray found was lumber patched with the Dutchman. The Dutchman is fairly well-known, also called a Butterfly Patch. Looks like a double-dovetail key: ________ / / / / / /______ That is laid in its 'grave' -- a matching recess in the material across the split. On the other hand, the Viking technique is complementary to the Dutchman. It involves removing material, not inserting it. You lose the decorative element, but maintain functionality by relieving the stresses instead of restraining movement. John Gunterman likes to use these because they balance the Ki of the wood and leave the piece in inner harmony. And Esther... I don't mind you making fun of such a serious subject-- but it is the Dutchman with the raiments; Vikings go naked! ;> -- CardPuncher: Gary "Snick" Ilmanen - Riverside, California, USA Other Email: Snick@A... Websites: http://www.Artwork.net http://www.kiwi.net/~saga http://www.adgrafix.com/info/gilmanen Don't miss these sites: http://www.LeatherPlus.com http://www.useful.com Pithy Quote: Exaggeration is a billion times worse than understatement. Disparate Quote: Avoid cliches like the plague. (They're old hat.) ---- Start of Message 25060 ---- From: Larry Williams Date: 1997-08-28 17:13:00 Subject: Tulsa/SWTCA bound GG's, Got the van loaded and am on the way to the SWTCA Fall Meet in Tulsa. Have a boat load of old iron priced like you only hope to find on FMM, a little old wood and some new wood that I'm really excited about showing. Forgot and left the hat in the shop though and I'm not going back after it. Hope to see a bunch there! Larry Williams Eureka Springs, Arkansas ---- Start of Message 25061 ---- From: Northstar Lumber Date: 1997-08-28 17:16:00 Subject: Destroyed Mailing list Hello Group, I am writing this note as a bit of a plea for help. I have been running a sales group on the internet for Northstar Lumber. I havein error (thanks to a wonderful duplicate finder) destroyed the ony copy of the original mailing list in eudora. If you were on my list would you be kindenough top e-mail me a copy of your e-mail address so we can continueour mailings... e-mail: nrthstrlbr@a... Thanks in advance Ernest Drost Northstar Lumber ---- Start of Message 25062 ---- From: John Gunterman Date: 1997-08-28 17:18:00 Subject: Re: Destroyed Mailing list At 01:16 PM 8/28/97 -0400, Northstar Lumber wrote: >Hello Group, I am writing this note as a bit of a plea for help. Serves you right you lously SPAMing Bahstud! As far as I'm Concerned, You sir, may go straight to heck. >Ernest Drost >Northstar Lumber Hey List-Mom's, I though we got rid of this %*&@#$ Loser... What Gives? ---- Start of Message 25063 ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 1997-08-28 17:27:00 Subject: Viking/Router Jig (fwd) Ray McCaleb, the ever-vigilant one, sent me this. Now I know that we do not want to dwell on power tools here, but I just wanted to pass this along as clear evidence that some of the old ways, no matter how obscure, are still relevant. Skol! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Paddy wrote: "Paddy, trying to figure out how to adapt his routah into a viking cutter" I know we're not allowed to discuss such on the list, so hence the e-mail. To quote the most recent Tr*ndl*n*s catalog (Vol. 138, issue 693; Wednesday and Thursday of the Third Week of August, 1997): "#SNYP669 Universal Viking Adapter - This remarkable jig attaches to any 7 1/2 HP (220v) or larger router having a standard 13 3/16" base plate. The precision machined casting made of the highest quality, aircraft grade, beryllium weighs a mere 13 pounds and can be attached by any qualified engineer in less than two hours using the optional tool kit listed below and Auxillary Universal Jig Adapter Kit (see page 762). Once attached, the amateur or professional woodworker alike (with proper training and certification) can accomplish the the most functionally elegant wood related procedure, THE VIKING, heretofore executed only by master craftsmen of old utilizing antiquated techniques and tools, mallet and chisel. This remarkable device is in limited supply and on a first-come first-served basis. $799.95" So, Paddy, there you have it, why reinvent the wheel? ---- end forwarded message ---- ---- Start of Message 25064 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 17:34:00 Subject: Re:List Bickers - Motivation Dunno about motivation, but from my perspective this is some of the best discussions to hit the list in recent months (maybe years?). I just want to thank Larry, Patrick, David, Don, Todd, Gary and others who have participated and provided such stimulating discussion. In my mind, this is what this list ought to be, along with a good sprinkling of shop experiences/problems. Thanks, guys - Mike ---- Start of Message 25065 ---- From: John Gunterman Date: 1997-08-28 17:14:00 Subject: Re: Viking versus Dutchmen At 09:53 AM 8/28/97 -0700, you wrote: On the other hand, the Viking technique is complementary to the Dutchman. It involves removing material, not inserting it. Precisely! sort-of.... the dutchman/viking technique you ADD a dutchman but when you lay the vike you are removing material at the same tim thus reching an eqaulibrum between the two..... (if you add in one place you must take away from somewhere else. elsewise the peice will be inbalanced. John Gunterman likes to use these because they balance the Ki of the wood and leave the piece in inner harmony. Bingo! for ever action there is an equal re-action... and thus the complimentary Viking/Dutchman procedure. I have never had moch luck doing either in-duh-vidually... but together thay copliment each other rather nicely... John It's a Ying/Yang thing. ---- Start of Message 25066 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 17:14:00 Subject: Re:Tulsa/SWTCA bound Anyone have any info on this meet - this is the first I've heard of it. Is it too late? (guess that's what I get for not being a SWTCA member :^( And who do I contact to join SWTCA? Thanks - Mike ---- Start of Message 25067 ---- From: Darrell LaRue Date: 1997-08-28 17:43:00 Subject: Speaking of Dutchmen... Galoots, All this talk of dutchmen has fired a stray synapse in my brain, and some interesting memories bubbled to the surface. I was in England (on business) a few years ago, and had an opportunity to take a day-trip. I went to Leeds Castle. A nice place; apparently it was restored in the 1920's by craftsmen who were trained by guys who learned the trade in the mid-19th century. Wonderful work! The dutchmen I saw were used to join the floorboards end to end in the big dining room. Ebony plank floors, no less. Everybody else was ohh-ing and ahh-ing the furniture and the decor, but I was walking around looking at the floor (yah dumb galoot!). Working ebony must be *really* hard on the tools. I wonder if the dutchmen were covering sunken nail heads, and were they 'through' or just inlet? Does anyone know more about this kind of flooring technique? Or do I have to go back to Leeds with a crowbar (kidding :^)? Darrell "That guy had a wooden head!" "Really? I thought he was just tense." Where the Buffalo Roam PS- The carvings in the ceiling beams were really nice, too. Those guys were good, no doubt about that. -- Darrell LaRue Oakville Ontario, Canada Opinions expressed herein are personal and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. ---- Start of Message 25068 ---- From: Ray McCaleb Date: 1997-08-28 17:48:00 Subject: RE: Leaning wedges Pierre wrote: In other words, if it is accidental, looking at a large number of planes would show leans of varying amounts in _both_ directions." I'm not convinced of this. My "Mr. Coffee" is getting old. A nice patina is developing...on the front side. The side next to the wall is like new. Orientation has a direct correlation to the observed characteristic. I'm not certain how the old timers oriented the plane body during construction, or if that may have affected/effected any characteristic. Ray Ray McCaleb (706) 369-5678; FAX (706) 369-6429 ray_mccaleb@o... Office of Information/Instructional Technology Business and Finance Systems University System of Georgia -----Original Message----- From: Pierre Fogal [SMTP:pfogal@g...] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 1997 1:52 PM To: oldtools@l... Subject: Re: Leaning wedges Addressed to: drhunk@c... oldtools@l... ** Reply to note from drhunk@c... Thu, 28 Aug 1997 02:16:10 -0700 Most of David's thoughtful article is snipped. But he does raise an important issue here, for the possible definition of this > I'd be interested in a regional correlation or a pattern that fits into a > certain time period. I'm not seeing one. Maybe something will fall into > place after everyone examines their shelves. I'd also be interested in > hearing Larry (or anyone else who has made a molding plane) compare the > process of making one both ways. Maybe someone who made many planes each > day didn't feel the need for this "shortcut". Seems like it might be a > quicker route to a good quality fit, but maybe it's not at all? I'd like to > hear ... hell, I might have to finally try making a plane myself to carry > on the family tradition :-) Glen Rea has also commented earlier that as an engineer, he thinks a small angle is basically "in the noise" which could well be true. However, if this is the case, we ought to get a kind of Gaussian distribution of lean if we sample enough planes. If that peaks at zero, then statistically the arguement that the lean is accidental would have to carry a lot of weight. If it isn't then the distribution would be skewed, peaking at the predominate amount of lean. Collectively, we own a large number of planes. We can answer this question in a statistical sense at least .... Regards, Pierre Gosh this is beginning to sound like my day job .... Dr. Pierre Fogal Physics Dept., University of Denver Denver, CO, USA. ---- Start of Message 25069 ---- From: Gil Chesbro Date: 1997-08-28 17:48:00 Subject: Re: List Bickers - Motivation GG's, I'm afraid my own experience leads me to a different conclusion; viz, a person's motivation tells you nothing about the veracity of his arguments. So what if someone is motivated solely by cupidity (a motive I attribute to no one on this list)? He may still be right, while those who embrace altruism may be wrong. Certainly one would expect that base motives may seduce a man into making specious arguments. It is not, however, proof of error. I, for one, would rather see arguments refuted by reason and evidence rather than by the insinuation of base motives. "And as for those of you who disagree with me . . . well, we all know why, don't we?" -Gil, who has learned a lot about wooden planes from this debate. ---- Start of Message 25070 ---- From: Esther Heller Date: 1997-08-28 17:44:00 Subject: Re: Destroyed Mailing list Our spammer, who knows a back door when he sees one, writes: > Hello Group, I am writing this note as a bit of a plea for help. I have > been running a sales group on the internet for Northstar Lumber. I > havein error (thanks to a wonderful duplicate finder) destroyed the ony > copy of the original mailing list in eudora. If you were on my list > would you be kindenough top e-mail me a copy of your e-mail address so > we can continueour mailings... Apologies for spamming 2 months ago are useless when you come back and do it yet one more time, and not even on FMM. I notice you are now keeping _2_ email addresses? Getting a bunch of junk mail on one are we? Now you know why real computer nerds believe in backups. Esther, seriously ticked because she got what sounded like a real apology the first time.... ---- Start of Message 25071 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 17:51:00 Subject: Re: Leaning wedges In a message dated 97-08-28 06:59:28 EDT, drhunk@c... (David Hunkins) writes: << Maybe something will fall into place after everyone examines their shelves. >> My shelves aren't nearly as well stocked as some that have been mentioned, but I've looked over my 40-50 molders, and the findings are fairly consistent with what others have seen. I have more leaning wedges in H&R's than anything else, but then, I've got more small H&R's than other profiles in small sizes. Several odd H&R's in small sizes lean, while the larger sizes don't. In my set of Appletons, pairs #2, 4, and 6 lean, while pairs #8 and up do not. My two smallest bead planes lean, but the larger ones do not. My smallest cove plane leans, the others don't. The largest leaners I have are an Appleton 3/4 quarter-round, and a steep profile quirk ogee and astragal in a fairly narrow body of around 1 1/4 inches wide . Its my smallest complex molder, and none of the other complex molders lean. None ot the planes seem to have a convex curve to the back wall, or curved wedges. I have to think that if wedges were leaned on purpose, it was because the planemaker wanted to stay away from the weakened area of wood above the escapement on his smaller planes, to prevent splitting it out and having to start all over again. Or to keep his smaller planes from coming back to him when a customer whacked it too hard with his mallet and the mortice split out. I really can't see where morticing the wedge in from the left would be an advantage in keeping the shavings from getting behind the wedge. If that were the purpose, wouldn't it be better to angle it in from the right, so it would be pointing away from the path of the shaving, rather than into it ? I can't see the oldtimers putting a wedge in at an angle to put it under tension either. They would have known that sooner or later it would take the set of the curve and loose its tension, or at least be a pain to take in and out. Ray ---- Start of Message 25072 ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 1997-08-28 17:58:00 Subject: Spam (Was Destroyed Mailing List)) This is what I sent to Mr. Drost, and both of his ISP's. Please forward all further inquires to Ralph and me, directly. Thanks, Paddy - earning his listmom appreciation pin today. ------------ Hi Ernie, Thanks for spamming our list again, AFTER we had banned you, AND reported you to your ISP's. I guess you were able to circumvent our ban on your account by going to a new ISP. Such is the life of the miscreant spammer. To the postmasters, Mr. Drost has a long history of spamming newsgroups and at least three listervs, including this one several times. He has been asked to cease and desist, yet refuses. This latest ruse, that he has lost his e-mailing list is a thinly-veiled attempt at trolling for more customers. Notice how he managed to squeak in the fact that he's an internet lumber dealer in his "innocent" plea for someone to send him his e-mail address. Ernie, you're not fooling anyone, and to put it quite frankly, you are a loser. Patrick Olguin - Listowner, Oldtools@l... On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Northstar Lumber wrote: > Hello Group, I am writing this note as a bit of a plea for help. I have > been running a sales group on the internet for Northstar Lumber. I > havein error (thanks to a wonderful duplicate finder) destroyed the ony > copy of the original mailing list in eudora. If you were on my list > would you be kindenough top e-mail me a copy of your e-mail address so > we can continueour mailings... > > e-mail: nrthstrlbr@a... > > Thanks in advance > > Ernest Drost > Northstar Lumber > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25073 ---- From: Bill Clouser Date: 1997-08-28 17:58:00 Subject: neandermallet - new wedge design GG's, I've come up with a slight modification to the neandermallet design which has worked very well for me on a sample size of 1 mallet so far. I have some left over teak from a project I'm working on. It's very old, with interlocking dense grain, and heavy. I realized that one of the chunks was mallet-head sized, so I decided to make the standard, slightly wedge-shaped, square-sided mallet out of this chunk. When it came time to make and insert the handle, however, I had to balk a little. I thought about the effort that it would take me to bore/chisel out the tapered rectangular hole in the head to accept the standard wedged handle design, and looked at my 3-1/2" thick mallet head, and decided that I would rather do something else with my time, namely work on the project which I needed the mallet for in the first place. So, I decided to simply bore a 1" hole through the head and turn an appropriately matching spindle on the end of the yet unmade handle. I intended to use a wedge in the end of the handle after driving it into the head, probably enlarging the hole in the top of the head first to accommodate the wedge. Well, my boring skills being what they are, I ended up boring the hole from both the top and bottom of the head leaving a 1/16" offset right in the middle of the head, purely by accident. "Hmmm," I thought, "this could be interesting." I decided to persevere and turn the end of spindle on the handle blank just barely undersize to see if I could successfully drive the head onto the handle using the offset to hold everything together. I ended up turning the spindle to a nice snug fit, with a slightly tapered tip. I used some more of the teak for the handle btw. Out came the spokeshave and rasp, and I made a nicely shaped grip on the handle, trying to keep things proportional to some of my favorite larger hammer handles in my toolbox. When I was satisfied with the shape, I set to driving the head onto the handle. It took some doing, but I did get that sucker on there all the way down to the shoulder of the handle so that there's just 1/8" of the handle's tip protruding out of the head. Let me tell you, that handle and head are one now, never to be pulled asunder, especially since the wood is nice and dry after aging for several hundred years. :) So, this is my new wedge (of sorts) design, and I like it very much so far. I can see some potential drawbacks though. For example, if the handle wood isn't dry, the head could slip off - ouch. Or, if your handle material isn't super-tough stuff, the 1" diameter holding the head on might not be enough to withstand the mortise-pounding fury which this mallet was meant to dish out in the first place. Or, if the head isn't super-interlocking-gnarly-grain tough stuff, you could split it while trying to drive it onto the handle - bummer. The only thing I would do differently now would be to make a little pad with a hole in it to use on top of the head while pounding it onto the handle. I kinda dented the top of my mallet's head with the hammer that I was using. I guess I'll plane/scrape it all pretty again since the teak didn't dent very much in spite of my hitting it really hard. I'd also pad the bottom of the handle while ponding the head on, because I caused some damage to the edges of the handle's end where it rested on the concrete shop floor (duh!) - Bill (Just say: A little ingenuity/desperation can go a long way.) -- ---- Start of Message 25074 ---- From: John Gunterman Date: 1997-08-28 18:01:00 Subject: SPAM Anger, let's let it go.... Sorry folks, I meant to reply _JUST_ to the spamming bastards and the list-moms. unfortunately in my address book OldToools is listed before OldTool-List-Moms so when I hit "O" then return ... well you see..... I said to myself "Ohh sh*t" when I saw my post come back to me w/ the lists address on it. I feel REALLY terrble about contributing to the brew-ha-ha. I'm REALLY sorry I did that. It is ALMOST as inexcusble as the original SPAM itself anyway, PLEASE.. lets not let this blatant attack sidetrack the list discussion any more than it has. To "Just let it go" would be the best course of action.. (besides I'm sure he shall soon fee the wrath of Paddy.) John {=================STANDARD DISCLAIMER=================} {_The views expressed are those of the author and may_} {___not reflect the views of Cabletron Systems Inc.___} {=====================================================} ---- Start of Message 25075 ---- From: David Hunkins Date: 1997-08-28 18:13:00 Subject: Re:Tulsa/SWTCA bound At 12:37 PM 8/28/97 -0500, MSDAVI@m... wrote: > Anyone have any info on this meet - this is the first I've heard of it. >Is it too late? (guess that's what I get for not being a SWTCA member :^( > And who do I contact to join SWTCA? Mike, The "Groups" page on the Electronic N'thal shows: >Southwest Tool Collectors Association (SWTCA) >swtca@m... >Gregor Mszar, Secretary >1409 Circle Lane >Bedford, Texas 76022 >$12/yr The "Events" page shows: >August 29-30 >Southwest Tool Collectors meeting, Tulsa, OK >Tim Hoss, (918) 743-9297 Wish I was gonna be there too! David ---- Start of Message 25076 ---- From: Pierre Fogal Date: 1997-08-28 12:15:00 Subject: RE: Leaning wedges Addressed to: ray_mccaleb@O... oldtools@l... ** Reply to note from ray_mccaleb@O... Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:48:00 -0400 Pierre wrote: In other words, if it is accidental, looking at a large number of planes would show leans of varying amounts in _both_ directions." I'm not convinced of this. My "Mr. Coffee" is getting old. A nice patina is developing...on the front side. The side next to the wall is like new. Orientation has a direct correlation to the observed characteristic. I'm not certain how the old timers oriented the plane body during construction, or if that may have affected/effected any characteristic. Ray I would think, but obviously I can't know, that if the wedges lean for mechanical reasons, ie a better mousetrap, then they would have to orient the planes before leaning the wedge. If on the other hand you can achieve the same effect leaning either way, then the shape of the distribution might still show peaks at preferred angles, the keyword in my initial statement being "varying". If the lean is accidental, then we would see different leans on the planes some of 1 deg, some of 2, 3 etc ..., some to the left, some to the right and some with none at all .... I hope I understood what you're saying ... Pierre Dr. Pierre Fogal Physics Dept., University of Denver Denver, CO, USA. ---- Start of Message 25077 ---- From: Bill Clouser Date: 1997-08-28 12:15:00 Subject: Speaking of Dutchmen... On Aug 28, 1:43pm, Darrell LaRue wrote: > Subject: Speaking of Dutchmen... > Galoots, English castle stuff viked' out ... > The dutchmen I saw were used to join the floorboards end > to end in the big dining room. Ebony plank floors, no less. ^^^^^^ Wow! > Does anyone know more about this kind of flooring technique? > Or do I have to go back to Leeds with a crowbar (kidding :^)? Nah, yould just bend the crowbar anyways! I've seen similar flooring in a museum or library or something. Sorry I can't remember where, I was just a littl'un. I do remember noticing, though, that the floorboards had contracted somewhat, (spaces in between,) and in areas where the floor didn't get too much traffic, the dutchmen were protruding a little. My guess is that they didn't extend all the way through the planks. I guess they should have used the double-tapered locking dutchmen which we talked about once. - Bill (Wishing he could find an old ebony floor to re-use) -- ---- Start of Message 25078 ---- From: John Letsche Date: 1997-08-28 18:27:00 Subject: James Cam A couple of days ago, a Galoot mentioned he found a plane with a James Cam iron in it. I have a James Cam 3/8 mortice chisel. Can anyone supply some info about James? When and where did he produce irons and chisels? Thanks, John. ---- Start of Message 25079 ---- From: Gil Chesbro Date: 1997-08-28 18:30:00 Subject: Tulip Wood GG's, I've been offered the bole of a large Tulip tree. Can anyone tell me something about the characteristics of this wood? Is it worth milling? Or am I going to discover that the common name Tulip Tree covers a dozen different species? Keep in mind I'm in Michigan, so the tree here is what at least one Michigander calls a Tulip Tree. -Gil ---- Start of Message 25080 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 19:35:00 Subject: First gloat, and thanks Just wanted to let you all know that yesterday I became the proud owner of ED protoype #6, and let me tell you, it is a sight to behold. Plenty of others with a hell of a lot more know-how than me have shared their feelings with us concerning this saw, so I'm just going to say that I was not disappointed at all. The second item concerns a plea for help I had made a little while ago concerning the planing of maple. The advice rolled in, and I am gratified to say that after spending last weekend tuning my #4 my efforts were rewarded with lovely, full-width, see-thru shavings with a minimum of stalling and gouging. Your willingness to share your experience and knowledge has made my introduction to this craft much easier, and I wanted to say thanks to all of you. Paul Shah Lipid Metabolism Tufts University HNRCA ---- Start of Message 25081 ---- From: John J. Pesut Date: 1997-08-28 14:36:00 Subject: Re: Destroyed Mailing list ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha, ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha, ----- John J. Pesut I speak for me ; A whole bunch of lawyers speak for Hewlett-Packard Co. You can lead a horse to water, but sometimes you have to hit it over the head and knock it out so that you can shove a hose down its throat and force feed it. "Tastes just like chicken." - George Donner, California, 1846 "We will be back in camp in time for lunch." - G.A. Custer, Montana, 1876 "Come on, the National Guard doesn't use real bul." - Student, Ohio, 1970 ***** The Second Amendment - A reset button for The Constitution ***** ---- Start of Message 25082 ---- From: Date: 1997-08-28 18:52:00 Subject: Re: Tulip Wood Gil, I could be wrong, but I believe "tulip" is also known as poplar. The latin name for poplar is liriodendron tulipifera. See www.woodcraft.com/pages/poplar.htm for a picture and brief description. I also remember an article in an older FWW that showed a tulip poplar tree which was about 4 feet across and 100+ feet tall. The article also stated that when these trees were plentiful an entire barn could be built from one tree. Steve ---- Start of Message 25083 ---- From: Aaron R. Ionta Date: 1997-08-28 18:48:00 Subject: Re: Central MI auction alert! Douglas I tried responding to your email but could not get through Count me in Aaron Ionta aaron.ionta@i... maybee you should just post the info so everyone can see Douglas A. Marshall wrote: > > GG's > I almost forgot - You galoots in MI might want to check this out. Tom > Gibbs, of Loomis, who I got some good, cheap stuff off of has been dealing > tools for about 20 years. During that time, his best customer was a > neighbor, a Stanley collector who got first choice on all the prime stuff > Tom came across. Well, the neighbor succumbed to Emphysema at a tragic 49, > and much of his estate will be auctioned off on site in early Oct. Tom > says that the guy running the auction is a putz - especially clueless > about tools. Some of you guys in the area might want to check it out > further. If you score anything nice, a small (say #2 size) cut to your > source would be appreciated ;-). E-mail me if you want more info - it > kills me that I won't be there for the sale, but maybe some lucky galoot > will do well. > > Doug > > Doug Marshall "...and never imagine there is reason to be > Greenwood, VA proud of anything that may be accomplished > dam4t@v... by patience and sandpaper. " > - John Ruskin > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 25084 ---- From: Todd Kissam Date: 1997-08-28 18:48:00 Subject: Re: Leaning wedges (long) I guess I would like to ramble on and attempt to make several points: 1. I have accumulated a lot of old paper as well as tools and in a Chronicle (EAIA club publication) there was a review of Ken Robert's first American Wooden Plane book. The reviewer skewered Ken at great length. Reading it 20 years later still appalled me. When you write something to try to further knowledge you are doing a couple of things. You are giving a gift to others and you are also making yourself vunerable. I hope that Larry does not feel himself as a target etc. I would like to first thank Larry, his partner and Gary for taking the time and making the effort to increase our understanding and I hope that they will continue to contribute their time and energy to the scholarship part of this hobby. 2. We have lost so much in both the areas of how tools were made and how they were used. Even with all that has been written on the subject of old tools, most knowledge is still passed on from mentor to apprentice. I consider many of the "Porch" members mentors (on both use and collecting) and I would like to thank Patrick for his mentoring and for his efforts to clarify some of the elements of the "Leaning Wedge" article. I hope that the principals and the rest of the porch have been interpreting the discourse on the "Leaning wedge" as academic and in the interest of furthering out knowledge. Clarence also deserves thanks for publishing the article in FTJ. (A shill - subscribe!) 3. I started collecting wooden planes when I was 8 years old and the more I think I know, the more I realize how little that really is. Often when a group of us woodies gets together someone will say "did you ever notice...", followed by "I always wondered about that". Most times we will identify a feature that we are curious about - the angled chatter marks above the plane shoulders - and we will be unable to come up with any rationale that all agree really fits. The additional input from a user (a great example is a series of posts we had the the use of sash fillesters on making ship-lap joints) as well as a maker (in this case Larry's findings) can add so much to our knowledge because of their different viewpoints. I did measure about 50 of my planes - I measure the location of the wedge slot so that warping is not a factor - and approx. 1/3 have an angled wedge mortise. Its my opinion that this is real and it was on purpose (at least for some of the planes), but further analysis will tell us more - relationship to cut width, etc. 4. We are now generations removed form the makers of these tools. We will never know all of the tricks these professional galoots used. Many of these early makers will remain unknown, a lot were probably just cabinetmakers who made there own or a few other tools for sale. Planemaking was a very competitive business - most early makers could not make a full time living making tools. If one maker did come up with a trick to increase production then it may have not have been in his interest to share this with everyone. 5. The Seaton chest was made to store its planes without wedges. I suspect this was for transport - maybe you saved money on shipping to the New World if the chest was smaller. But there are also many other chests (and the present contents of the Seaton chest) that show the the wedges were left in the planes. BTW - a lot of wedges are numbered - probably to aid in manufacture - but perhaps this was also done to aid shipping. But, I do not think that wedge in tight or lose or not in place needs to be a factor in Larry's tensioned wedge hypothesus. If it gave an advantage to maker (speed), that may have been enough of a rationale. Did the maker care if the wedge warped a little due to tension years later. I would assume that the owner would just shave the wedge a little - where the wedge was a little sticky. 6. Although 1/8 inch or 2 percent lean seem within the noise limit - I keep coming back to that 1/2 to 3/4" that the pad of the brace has to be out of plumb to do this. It would be great if there were jigs surviving from the late 1700's that supported the plane body at a slight angle or other tools that valuated or repudiated what has been proposed in Larry's article. I wish I were able to contribute to the discussion of bevels and other points, but must admit I can understand these things hands on but have a hard time connecting on the plus and minuses on other's posts without having an example in front of me. Todd ---- Start of Message 25085 ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1997-08-28 18:57:00 Subject: shipping costs This has nothing to do with wood or tools directly, except that some of us like to get rid of some excess goodies form time to time, and FMM IS coming up... I just shipped a box to the left coast (from MPLS, MN) *UPS costs at one of those mailbox stores was to be $12.04 *USPS ..complete with oversize penalty was to be $9 *BY GOING TO THE UPS PLANT I shipped via UPS for $5.86 Note: this is LESS THAN HALF THE PRICE that I was quoted at the Mailbox type store!!!!!!! Lesson learned, (and shared) Tom (who will take the $6.20 that I DIDN'T spend and go garage saling on the way home from work tonight thank you very much) ---- Start of Message 25086 ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1997-08-28 18:57:00 Subject: Re: Tulip Wood Gil Chesbro wrote: > > I've been offered the bole of a large Tulip tree. > Or am I going to discover that the common name Tulip Tree > covers a dozen different species? I would suspect this is a tulip poplar (Liriodendron tulipifera). (Don't worry, it's one of the half dozen or so Latin tree names that I know, and I looked it up to be sure I had it right.) Isn't this likely the source of common poplar? It can have a rather greenish tint, but it's widely used now for building trim. Almost all of the trim I used on my new front door is poplar. I again suspect that it is in wide use in part because it seems to be readily available in clear form. Ed -- Ed Bell | On a quest for the perfect P2K North | saw set. Cincinnati Bell Information Systems | Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. ---- Start of Message 25087 ---- From: Stan VanDruff Date: 1997-08-28 20:04:00 Subject: Re: Parallel action pliers with side cutter I have one of these pliers -- the side cutters are not part of the jaws, right? Mine isn't for sale, since it was a gift from my Dad. I just want to know what is is designed for. The only thing I can think of is for stretching wire. Am I close? At 09:31 AM 8/28/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Anyone know where I can get one these? My dad had one >(a Barnard??) that was advertised as having a one ton bite. ---- Start of Message 25088 ---- From: Gil Chesbro Date: 1997-08-28 19:02:00 Subject: Re: Tulip Wood -Reply DOH! Poplar! We'll why didn't she just say so? Now I can have a lifetime's supply of drawer sides. My thanks to Esther and Steve for their replies. -Gil ---- Start of Message 25089 ---- From: Karl Dunn Date: 1997-08-28 19:12:00 Subject: MD's Chair Class GG's I just want to add my name to the list of people who took Mike's Class and had a great time doing it. Other's have gone into great detail about the class and all it entails, so I'll just add that I was pleasantly surprised at how easy going it all was. I know at times I tend to sweat over "is this chisel sharp enough?", "Is my bench the right height?" etc. etc. But Mike's shop changed alot of that. The benches, (with the exception of Mike's Personal) were plywood and masonite with beaten and relatively inexpensive record vises. I used some of my tools (old and new old), some of fellow classmates(old and new old) and some of Mike's rag tag collection (old) and the truth is, I came out with a d*mn good looking chair and more importantly the ability to make more. Cool. Sure it's got warts, (I've never made a piece that didn't) but after I finish something that has taken that much time, more often than not, I'm just relieved to be done. This time? The exact opposite. When it came time to chisel away the remaining spindle stumps, I kind of felt bad that it was over. If you are even thinking about maybe possibly taking such a class I highly reco this one. He's gotten a lot of positive reaction from The Wall Street Journal Piece so if'n you want to go, I'd advise anyone to check into it sooner rather than later. Karl Who will never look at a chair or a red oak tree exactly the same way again. ---- Start of Message 25090 ---- From: Bob Brode Date: 1997-08-28 19:47:00 Subject: Re: James Cam John Letsche: >...a plane with a James >Cam iron in it. > >I have a James Cam 3/8 mortice chisel. Can anyone supply some info >about James? When and where did he produce irons and chisels? Always happy to paraphrase Roberts: Cam was one of the earlier Sheffield edge tool makers (listed in the 1787 directory), but was acquired by Marshes & Shepard in 1838. Samuel Peace, a "small edge tool manufacturer," was contracted to run the former Cam works, so he was the actual maker, at least during mid-century. Marsh & Shepard (renamed Marsh Bros. in 1849) continued use of the Cam mark for the rest of the nineteenth century, though intermittently, if Roberts's dates are accurate. Marsh Bros. (with the Cam mark) was apparently particularly active in exporting to the U.S. Bob Brode ---- Start of Message 25091 ---- From: David Pickle Date: 1997-08-28 19:29:00 Subject: Re:Tulsa/SWTCA bound Galoots, >The "Events" page shows: > >>August 29-30 >>Southwest Tool Collectors meeting, Tulsa, OK >>Tim Hoss, (918) 743-9297 The lowdown on this meet is that it starts Friday (tomorrow) morning at 0700 at the Convention Center in downtown Tulsa. I spoke to Tim Hoss just last night, and he said that SWTCA membership was not required, but it would cost $10 to get in. The theme of the show is something like "giants and midgtets" meaning huge tools and little-bitty tools. there will be exhibits of this theme. The thing, though, which made my heart skip a beat was that he said there will be 75 tables of dealers and exhibits!!!!!!! David Pickle Tulsa, OK just say, I'll be there by 7AM tomorrow with my nose pressed up against the glass, waiting for them to open... ---- Start of Message 25092 ---- From: Todd Kissam Date: 1997-08-28 19:33:00 Subject: Re: Spam (Was Destroyed Mailing List)) At 01:58 PM 8/28/97 -0400, THE LIST MOM wrote: >Hi Ernie, >Thanks for spamming our list again, AFTER we had banned you, AND reported >you to your ISP's. I guess you were able to circumvent our ban on your >account by going to a new ISP. Such is the life of the miscreant spammer. > He connects with a solid left jab... >To the postmasters, Mr. Drost has a long history of spamming newsgroups >and at least three listervs, including this one several times. He has been >asked to cease and desist, yet refuses. This latest ruse, that he has lost >his e-mailing list is a thinly-veiled attempt at trolling for more >customers. Notice how he managed to squeak in the fact that he's an >internet lumber dealer in his "innocent" plea for someone to send him his >e-mail address. > followed by a straight right.... the challenger is reeling >Ernie, you're not fooling anyone, and to put it quite frankly, you are a >loser. > a flurry of combinations - he's down for the count - he'll have to be carried out of the ring. KO'd in the 2nd round. >Patrick Olguin - Listowner, Oldtools@l... > Hey Patrick - those are supposed to be 8 oz gloves not gloves with a #8 in them. Todd [Who thought guys in Hahafornia were more mellow ;^)] ---- Start of Message 25093 ---- From: James Foster Date: 1997-08-28 19:34:00 Subject: Re: shipping costs Tom Johnson wrote: > > This has nothing to do with wood or tools directly, except that some of us like > to get rid of some excess goodies form time to time, and FMM IS coming up... > > I just shipped a box to the left coast (from MPLS, MN) > *UPS costs at one of those mailbox stores was to be $12.04 > *USPS ..complete with oversize penalty was to be $9 > *BY GOING TO THE UPS PLANT I shipped via UPS for $5.86 > Note: this is LESS THAN HALF THE PRICE that I was quoted at the Mailbox type > store!!!!!!! As far as I can tell, the base UPS price tends to be best (unless you're going from the US to CAN, then they ream you pretty good for customs). The USPS priority mail price is good on the stuff small/light enough to go that way. I'm lucky enough that our shipping dock provides UPS shipping as a service to employees. I just have to pack it up and bring it down. The "mailbox" stores are going to charge a premium, of course, but I am a bit surprised at how large it was percentage wise (I'd have guessed a couple of bucks). ---- Start of Message 25094 ---- From: David Tardiff Date: 1997-08-28 19:34:00 Subject: RE: Leaning wedges Pierre sez: Glen Rea has also commented earlier that as an engineer, he thinks a small angle is basically "in the noise" which could well be true. However, if this is the case, we ought to get a kind of Gaussian distribution of lean if we sample enough planes. If that peaks at zero, then statistically the arguement that the lean is accidental would have to carry a lot of weight. In other words, if it is accidental, looking at a large number of planes would show leans of varying amounts in _both_ directions. If it isn't then the distribution would be skewed, peaking at the predominate amount of lean. Collectively, we own a large number of planes. We can answer this question in a statistical sense at least .... Not necessarily! Planes are asymmetrical beasts, and are made primarily by asymmetrical people - handed, right? (or left....). I can easily visualize fixtures, jigs, and just practices that would tend to pile up error more on one side of 90 degrees than the other.... Gee, if I'm going to get in on this discussion (not an argument! It's a discussion! Thesis, antithesis, synthesis, right?) I'd better read the original article! Is the FTJ available anywhere other than subscription, and can back issues be obtained? I subscribed years ago, under previous management, but dropped it when became nothing but ads for the auction - I wasn't learning anything but prices. Perhaps I can obtain a copy at the upcoming Cranes...I'm sure Clarence will be there. Could this all be a clever ploy to increase circulation? :-) Dave Tardiff tardiff@m... Digital Equipment Corporation ---- Start of Message 25095 ---- From: John R Mudd Date: 1997-08-28 19:28:00 Subject: Re: Tulip Wood > > I would suspect this is a tulip poplar (Liriodendron tulipifera). (Don't > worry, it's one of the half dozen or so Latin tree names that I know, > and I looked it up to be sure I had it right.) Isn't this likely the > source of common poplar? It shouldn't be. (Tuliptree == tulip poplar) != poplar. Plain old poplar is closer to cottonwoods and aspens. If the tree is indeed a tulip poplar, then it's quite a beautiful tree. Nice tall trunk. In Eric Sloane's "A reverence for wood" there's a drawing of how tulip trees are commonly recognized, by the "bumps" on the distant leaf-line. Once you've seen the leaves, you should recognize it. Hard to explain, sort of a Vulcan "live free and prosper" handsign. I guess you have to see it to understand. Tulip poplar and its qualities are well-documented in "Best of FWW on Wood" (the blue one). ---- Start of Message 25096 ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1997-08-28 19:49:00 Subject: Re: wages at the forge At 10:22 AM -0500 8/28/97, James Foster wrote: >Tom Johnson wrote: [snip stuff about tools of *war*] >So what would be the price of some of the >common, simple molding planes of the early 1800's translated into >today's prices? >'Course, the value will depend on how you figure the >monetary equivalency, but ballpark figures would still be interesting. An interesting question, especially when we see an old wholesale catalog listing the price of a plane, and the fine print says "per dozen." Curiosity aside, it relates to questions of what sort of tools an artisan could afford to be equipped with in the old days, as well as such modern questions as whether an L-N repro, e.g., is really all *that* expensive, in historical comparison. Modern equivalencies of historical monetary units are almost always problematic, with the validity of comparisons decreasing as one goes back in time. There are some published time series of one currency in terms of another (eg, dollars to pounds sterling), but they only go back to the period, usually in the 19th century, when international commerce became standardized through exchange rates set in currency exchanges in major port cities. And these figures tell very little about the purchasing power of a given sum *within* a given country/currency area. Another tack is to try to estimate historic rates of inflation, by comparing the market cost of a fixed "basket" of goods through time. But what should go into the basket is difficult to hold constant, especially over long periods, and recovering prices is often difficult. (Compare what your family "consumes" in a given week with what your great-grandfather's family consumed, etc.) Sometimes this is distilled down to one item over time, such as a bushel of grain, but still there are problems of equivalency. My own preferred method (if the engineers on the list invoke their professional experience on the list, can a historian do less?) is to try to find a comparable equivalency *at the time* the past value is known, and a similar pair in the present. For the case at hand, it might be possible to discover how much a