---- Start of Message 15001 ---- From: Jeff Gorman Date: 1997-03-12 19:44:00 Subject: Re: Cabinet Pitch Bruce Marcus wrote: ~ > Regular pitch is far more common than cabinet. I get confused on ~ > the naming conventions used. But there are at least 3 pitches of ~ > hollows and rounds. ~ ~ I was taught, but I can't remember by whom, or whether I later learned ~ whoever it was didn't know beans, that in England, where the use of the ~ three pitches was much more common, they were called common, middle and ~ York pitches. Why York? Maybe one of the GB contingent could tell us, Richard might know, but I can only guess that it was because of a maker in York who produced planes of this pitch. I'm not into junk, 8-), collecting at all, but do I recall that some wooden planes produced by a certain maker in York are highly valued? York itself, of course, is an ancient and charming historic city housing the great York Minster the seat of the Archbishop of York, the second primate. One can still pretend to be a Roman soldier and walk around the walls (in part anyway). Yankee, 8-), tourists and others from wordwide make a great contribution to the local economy. ~ unless it was from the lots of "yorks" the funny looking near-vertical ~ conformation received. Now there's a term I haven't read before. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman - West Yorkshire jeff@m... ---- Start of Message 15002 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-13 04:26:00 Subject: Re: Electron Beam Welding Question In a message dated 97-03-12 13:50:26 EST, you write: > 2- Has anyone else out there done the Electron Beam thingy and can > share how it worked, cost, where the heck you find someone to do it, > overall experience? > Scot, Electron beam welding requires some pretty special equipment. Air will stop an electron beam pretty quickly so the welding process must be performed in a real good vacuum. It is basically just a beam of electrons much like in a TV picture tube. The electrons are accelerated acoss high voltage and then focused using a magnetic or electric field. Being in a vacuum insures that oxygen is not present which makes for a cleaner weld and the heat is pretty localized. Thats about all I know about it. I have seen it done a number of times, but can't tell you whether it would work well on your plane. Some machine shops that specialize in the fabrication of aerospace hardware can do it. Bill Bohl ---- Start of Message 15003 ---- From: David R. Hunkins by way ofDavid R. Hunkins Date: 1997-03-13 04:52:00 Subject: L.S.Starrett Co. - copyright? Trying again ... maybe now that Witte's and PATINA are over, someone might be able to answer this one: GG's, I just cruised the Starlight Drive-in Flea ... and it's gettin' dangerous. After my third time there and not findin hide nor hair of a good woodworking tool, I'm buyin crazy stuff ... files, and machinist tools, Karl ;-). Actually it might even be a gloat to say I found 2 *huge* tapered round files by Simonds ... over 3/4" diameter at the beefiest. They probably cost a bijillion dollars new, so now I have 2 unused gems for cheap ... perfect for tuning up those moulding irons with a large radius inside curve! But the reason for the post is this: there was talk recently about Patent, Patent App'l For, Patent Pending, etc. Here's a new one. I picked up a Starrett No. 185 "Time Saver" Drill & Wire Gauge (one of those plates with holes and info so you choose the right drill for the job). The curious thing to me is that at the bottom, they stamped "Copyright 1898". I guess I'm missing something here, but what info on here could have been copyrighted? There is a "table" of sorts with headings of "size of tap", "tap drill", and "body drill" with the appropriate numbers in the columns ... what is unique in this information that Starrett claimed as copyrighted material? Were they the first to calculate and publish this information, or did they calculate the decimal equivalent of 1-60 number drills and claim to be the first? Were they first to publish that you needed to use a No. 48 drill for tap and No. 42 drill for body of a 2 x 56 machine screw? Anybody enlighten me on this one? BTW, I have an 1983 Starrett catalog that shows this model. Mine must be quite abit older. When did "NC" National Coarse and "NF" National Fine Thread Series standards come into being? The gauge in the catalog has a much more extensive chart of information than the one I have ... so mine must have been made before the NF and NC were being used. I need an education on this field. David, Who doesn't even own number or letter drills. ---- Start of Message 15004 ---- From: Dan Hogan Date: 1997-03-13 05:13:00 Subject: Re: list censorship (was pinewood derby) WHY?? This sudden spasam of sending ordinary messages as HTML attachments? It's very irritating to keep having to delete them from my DL directory. At 20:39 3/12/97 -0700, Chuck Zitur Wrote >Attachment Converted: "C:DLRelistce" > Dan Hogan West Covina, CA dhhogan@l... ---- Start of Message 15005 ---- From: Michael D. Sullivan Date: 1997-03-13 05:18:00 Subject: Re: topic censorship (Was Pinewood Derby) I agree with Jerry. I saw nothing inappropriate about the Pinewood Derby thread. It was more on topic than many others that have gone on forever, and more interesting to many. While everyone has the right to express an opinion about the germaneness of a given thread by private email or on the list, nobody but the list-moms has the right to tell someone to cut off a discussion. And while an opinion and suggestion by private email may be appropriate if a given thread is indisputably off-topic (e.g., "which tablesaw is best?") and may cause the participants to exercise better judgment, where there is clearly some connection with old or new hand tools a question is better put to the list for discussion, so the list can determine whether there is a consensus that the thread should be dropped or not. -- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA -- Email: mds@a..., avogadro@w... ---- Start of Message 15006 ---- From: Tim Swihart Date: 1997-03-13 05:18:00 Subject: Re: #71 Question Michael asks about the metal router.. > > Also, mine has the arched open throat with the footpad attachement that > can be used to `close` the throat. When/how do you use the attachment? It helps you balance the plane if you're working on the narrow edge of a board (example, trying to route part of a hinge mortice, making biscuit slots the really hard way, or doing pretty much anything that doesn't let the sole under the knobs touch the wood...you'd only have the area behind the blade and that's not enough to work efficiently, so put the "foot" on and you can now have something making contact in front of the blade as well as the sole behind the blade... Tim S. My opinions are my own. They're my feet and I'll put them in my mouth if I want to. Do not expose to open flame. ---- Start of Message 15007 ---- From: SBMarcus Date: 1997-03-13 04:56:00 Subject: Re: Planing flame grain > From: Tom Johnson thj@e... > I have some crazy grain cherry , are > there any tricks for smoothing this stuff and avoiding those horrible chips? Sometimes it helps if you hold the plane at a skew angle to the grain. Angled left or right depends upon the direction of the cross-grain . Usually a little experimentation will tell you. Bruce ---- Start of Message 15008 ---- From: SBMarcus Date: 1997-03-13 06:27:00 Subject: Re: Requesting a favor (fwd) > > Esteemed Galootinous Friends, > > I'm in the process of designing a fairly traditional tool chest (you > know, 3' long, 2' high, 2' wide, etc...) and am wondering how you all > would recommend attatching the bottom. > > The three basic references that I have (Hasluck's 'The Handymans Book', > Tolpin's 'The Toolbox Book' and Jone's 'The Practicle Woodworker') all > state that the bottom was traditionally T&G nailed on from underneath. > . But these are my *TOOLS* I'm talking about here. > Any opinions or experiences out there that you'd be willing to share? > > -Ken If you're building a traditional chest with sliding bins than you probably won't have much opportunity to put a great deal of weight directly on the bottom, but, FWIW, I've handled a fair number of chests from the late 18th cent. and later, and have rarely encountered ones with split out bottoms. Most of the New England chests I've seen just have the bottom nailed into a rabbit on the bottoms of the side boards. I haven't encountered much talk about nails, another kind of old hardware beside tools, in my short time on the porch, but the holding power of nails has twice decreased greatly over the last two hundred years; first with the replacement of hand-forged nails by cut nails in the early 19th cent., and again with the introduction of modern wire nails about 50 years later. Get some cut nails, either antique or the repros made by Tremont nail Co...Or better yet, see if you can score some hand-forged nails. In the East, at least, local house restorers are a good source. Bruce ---- Start of Message 15009 ---- From: John Hunt Date: 1997-03-13 08:07:00 Subject: Re: FS - Boring Stuff Bob, You still got this? -John- B440 Breast Drill Millers-Falls M-F Breast Drill with 18?? patent date. 17" overall length. This model changes gearing by moving the crank gear between one of two holes. Finish is well worn. Wood handles are in good condition. A good user. $20.00 ---- Start of Message 15010 ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1997-03-13 03:49:00 Subject: RE: FW: E-MAIL VIRUS WARNING Sorry to take bandwidth for this, but Dan Hogan pointed out.. >....But you still can't transmit a virus via TEXT. It has to be a .EXE or > .COM file. Mainly true, but word processor documents can have start up auto-running macros capable of including destructive instructions. - just say() be careful if downloading a Word .doc file (Or other non-ascii stored document architectures) Richard Wilson Oldtools content - spot the comparison - old Ascii won't cut off any vital PC Body parts. ---- Start of Message 15011 ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1997-03-13 05:16:00 Subject: RE: CABINET PITCH Oh dear, Bruce Marcus wrote: ~ > Regular pitch is far more common than cabinet .. there are at least 3 pitches of ... I was taught, but I can't remember by whom, or whether .... in England, ..... they were called common, middle and York pitches. Why York? > Maybe one of the GB contingent could tell us, And Jeff replied.. >Richard might know, but I can only guess that it was because of a maker > in York who produced planes of this pitch.... And I was hoping that Jeff knew the answer to this one. Dimly and uncertainly in the dusty attic in my head there is a notion that a cabinetmaker in York was responsible for inventing it. I'd need access to some references, so please don't take this as gospel, but here goes.. As Jeff noted, York is the county town of Yorkshire and has been an important centre since the Vikings named it (Jorvik) and founded a settlement there for trade and cultural integration. The presence of the Archbish, the wealth from trade links to the east and rich farming, and it being the last civilised city south of Newcastle all meant it was capable of supporting fine cabinetmaking. I further suspect that it had some linkage with the introduction of short grain stuff like mahogany for which the steeper pitch (Is it 55 degrees by the way?) was more appropriate than traditional tools used for working english oak. Thereafter it became adopted elsewhere, and I can well believe that planes were made and sold from the 'inventors' town as being 'York' pitch. My ignorance is now fully exposed. Do you invent a new pitch, or discover it BTW? >~ unless it was from the lots of "yorks" the funny looking near-vertical > ~ conformation received. >Now there's a term I haven't read before. Me neither - explanation please... Richard Wilson Who was making some catheads last night from 5mm square mahogany that had a distinctive 'cigar box' aroma and powdered to fine orange dust - anyone know what variety that would be? ---- Start of Message 15012 ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1997-03-13 07:47:00 Subject: Re: Requesting a Favor (Fwd) Ken Stagg enquired on how to attach his bottom ... > I'm in the process of designing a fairly traditional tool chest (you > know, 3' long, 2' high, 2' wide, etc...) Sounds like my 'proper' old chest... > the bottom was traditionally T&G nailed on from underneath. ..supporting info snipped.. On the topic of holding power, recall that you could (should?) dovetail nail them. For anyone unfamiliar, you angle the nails like dovetails, - here, I'll draw it..(today's joke) / / / / nails (no, really) / / ----------------------------- ! ! ! end of boards ----------------------------- Perhaps some restorer galoots would comment on whether cut nails were dovetailed when applied blind, (or did it become necessary with the introduction of round wire 'slip pins'. ) Also - I show two nails, beware of potential splitting when nailing a wide board liable to shrinkage, etc, etc, etc Richard Wilson Who has never inspected his bottom, and isn't going to remove the iron ballast to do so.... ---- Start of Message 15013 ---- From: Webber, Bill Date: 1997-03-13 07:55:00 Subject: PATINA Show (long) copy #2 I posted this 24 hours ago and it never came back. Maybe Ralph has the BORE_ing filter on (-: Oh well... GSs, It was Friday after noon, and I had cut work just a tad early. I'd gone to the Volunteer Fire Department Activities building in Damascus to help set up the dealer tables. But, when I got there the tables were all in place and the only thing left to do was to unpack, admire, fondle, and arrange the tools for the auction. (Hee HEE!). There were a dozen or so PATINA members there. ( 'Hope I'm not offending anyone) I think Karl Sanger was the only other list member there. It was really cool getting to handle and identify each of the items for the auction. IMHO the auction inventory was predominantly user and lesser tools. There were a couple things I was interested in (like the boxed #2 that I hear Patrick scarfed up at, what $700? I heard $600 from another source. We'll know who is streettcchhing their stories when the final price list is published. There was a nice boxed set of chisels that I'm told went for $3 -4 hundred, and several boxes of #45/55 cutters that were way at the end of the list. Anyway at that point I had decided to pass on the auction. I'm not big on the personal competition that takes place at auctions and I hadn't seen anything I was willing to fight over. Saturday morning, I'm up reasonably early. It's COLD, with a wind! I got to the lot about 8 o'clock, I think. Plenty of time for my usual quick pass through. Good turn out of tail-gaters. More than last year, 'coarse the weather is better. There was a Stanley picture frame vise priced at $50 that looked interesting. A toy Stanley tractor trailer NIB, but the seller didn't know the price. 'Told him I was just curious" and kept moving. (I was still thinking about the vise later in the day, when I saw a dealer inside passing the same one along for only $10 more than the guy outside.) Quarter to nine and I figure I'll get out of the cold. There's a vestibule-like entrance to the hall, you can get out of the wind but can't get into the hall. I waited my turn to peek through the blinds to see what Ron Cushman had brought. A little disappointing. They had assigned him two tables, but back-to-back rather than end-to-end, and I couldn't see the boxed stuff he had to offer. I couldn't help but overhear a bunch of scruffily dressed guys talking about various web sites they had visited for old tool information, but they couldn't find their way back. I told them how to search for Neanderthal Woodworker, (you only get one site) and go from there. When the doors opened, I made a bee line for Dan and Barbara Fromer's table. They had a shop in New Market until recently. Dan taught shop for many years, until he recently retired. He has always been an old tool fanatic and used his business to build his personal co**ection. He claims to have the #1, type 16 I want and I figured I'd start with his table. He hadn't brought it and he was pushing mostly adverti$ing stuff, a couple rules and only a few planes. I quickly moved on. Now, I'm a user (-: of only the finest tools. I generally make up a list of about 50 tools that I might be interested in. I do my research from books, experience, catalog and auction sales, etc. I wind up with a list of tools and a range of prices based on my assessment of the current market. All very scientific! The problem was that there was nothing there, at the dealer show, that was on my list. IMHO, this show was considerably lacking in the high end tools I like (hate me if you want, but ALL my tools are near perfect). Like the auction inventory, I didnt find anything to get really excited about. One dealer was pushing a #289 for $600. The same dealer and tool who had quickly scrambled around to find more correct thumb screws when I pointed out the incorrect ones in Harrisburg last... Somehow I got to lookin' at $444s. There were about five of them on the floor. Incredibly, all were in some state of major dis-repair, One was missing a fence. The dealer told me "Ron said he'd bring me one for $100, but he forgot it". One had the nastiest weld on the fence that you could imagine. One looked like it had been high power sand blasted, and then poorly nickel plated. Another was missing the knicker block and had repro cutters. That's only four? The other was equally forgettable. I saw a new Bedrock #604 1/2 the guy wanted $1200! He said he paid $900. Gee, sorry for you loss! (maybe not) Oh, BTW, the asking price for all the busted up #444s was $800 or more! Anyway, my good news/bad news assessment: The prices and availability of the good stuff are going up exponentially. You ain't gonna find much, but if you do, it may be a good investment. Moving right along. I adjusted my wish list based on available stock and came up with the following: - A #43 saw set that Clarence Blanchard brought me from his latest FTJ auction - A minty #94 rule from Dan and Barbara - A nice Miller Fallers carving set #106 - A Miller Falls #49 catalog. (there's a JOBBER'S RESALE PRICE SHEET for March 1, 1938 stuck inside, includes Goodell Pratt stuff and applies to the No 42 catalog, if anyone needs pricing info from it.) I also picked up Anatol's video. I noted that Patrick was still wearing the fake bald spot he had on in the video. Anyhow, as usual I had a really good time, meeting old and new Galoots and PATINA members. (See other posts for more name dropping (-: ) Too bad I left with some of my allowance still in my pocket, though. I didn't go to the auction. On Sunday SWMBO wanted to drive into Ellicott City since she has been selected for the jury duty list for this week. She wanted to be sure she knew where she had to go, if she had to go. We wandered around the little town, (cutesy pooh little boutiquey tourist junk stores, generally) people-watching and exclaiming over the prices the sellers were trying to get for stuff we had bought new and already trashed. Nothing exceptional 'til we got to a showcase with some user tools that looked like Fred's stuff. Fred's stuff is easily recognized and not usually high end. But there, with a plane he had identified with no less than six different dates, was an ivory Stanley rule! No! actually five ivory rules. Well, it's late. I gotta admit I admire you guys who post this lengthy stuff routinely. I enjoy reading yours, hope you find mine as entertaining. Anyway, to be continued, see FRED'S RULES, coming soon. Regards, Bill W. P.S. Anyone interested in keeping up with events around MD, VA and within PATINA, can join for only $12 a year. The PATINAGRAM ain't a real glitzy rag but I think it is still printed on one of the ol' Guttenbergs... ---- Start of Message 15014 ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1997-03-13 07:55:00 Subject: Re: CABINET PITCH > Bruce Marcus wrote: > > ~ > Regular pitch is far more common than cabinet > .. there are at least 3 pitches of > ... I was taught, but I can't remember by whom, or whether > .... in England, > ..... they were called common, middle and York pitches. Why York? Richard Wilson replied: > As Jeff noted, York is the county town of Yorkshire and has been an > important centre since the Vikings named it (Jorvik) and founded a > settlement there for trade and cultural integration. > I further suspect that it had some linkage with the introduction of short > grain stuff like mahogany for which the steeper pitch (Is it 55 degrees by > the way?) was more appropriate than traditional tools used for working > english oak. Philip Walker in Salaman's _Dictionary of Tools_ provides the following table: Bench Planes: for softwoods 45 d. 'Common pitch' for hardwoods 50 d. 'York pitch' .................. ................... Moulding Planes: for softwoods 55 d. 'Middle pitch' for hardwoods 60 d. 'Half pitch' .................. .................. In line with Richard's impression, I have read "somewhere" that it is believed the convention of the higher ("cabinet") pitches arose in the period when the imported tropical timbers (difficult grain specimens often being chosen for their decorative effect) were in vogue. Richard ends his message" > Richard Wilson > Who was making some catheads last night from 5mm square mahogany that had > a distinctive 'cigar box' aroma and powdered to fine orange dust - anyone > know what variety that would be? Until recently I might have assumed this to be a lauan (so-called Philippine mahogany). With the rise of cigar smoking as a craze, however, I've had a small "opportunity" to become a little more familiar with Spanish Cedar. It is currently in use to line cigar humidors and is the same wood (as I understand it) used in the manufacture of the wooden cigar boxes in days gone by. Especially in small specimens it could easily be taken for mahogany. Maybe, this is what you're working with? Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 15015 ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 1997-03-13 13:26:00 Subject: The road to PATINA I didn't get to mention earlier that Friday night before PATINA, I got to spend some time at Ted Scott's shop in Frederick MD. Quaffing the proverbial brews and shooting the Galoot bull. I wish him all the luck, it's tough to get a name going for one's self (although in the 8 years, I've been in business, I've been called many..............). Tony ___________________________________________________________________ One is an interest Two is a collection Three is an obsession ___________________________________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 15016 ---- From: Chuck Zitur Date: 1997-03-13 13:29:00 Subject: RE: List censorship was Pinewood derby Hi all I somehow managed to send this last night as an attachment which was unreadable for some and a PITA for others. I will now attempt it again: Jerry and all I was not told told by anyone that the topic (of the Pinewood Derby) was inappropriate. In fact of all of the questions that I have ever asked this one surely had an overwhelming response. I would guess that the question was answered by so many because of their own experiences rather recent or in the foggy past. Also there seems to be a common approval of father and son working together on a wood project. There is no question that the many members of this list are mostly family oriented people with strong values. Regardless, I realized that the question may have not been totally in line with everyone's expectation of the lists content. I simply wanted to thank them for their indulgence. Regards Chuck Zitur ---- Start of Message 15017 ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1997-03-13 08:37:00 Subject: RE: CABINET PITCH ..cutting out all the stuff about cabinet pitch.. except for noting v. useful table of angles, Thanks, I asked.. >I was making some catheads last night from 5mm square mahogany that had >a distinctive 'cigar box' aroma and powdered to fine orange dust - anyone > know what variety that would be? and Don replied.. >... I've had a small "opportunity" to become a little more familiar with >Spanish Cedar. It is currently in use to line cigar humidors and is the > same wood (as I understand it) used in the manufacture of the wooden > cigar boxes in days gone by. Especially in small specimens it could > easily be taken for mahogany. >Maybe, this is what you're working with? Most certainly, What a good description - the pungency should have been the clue, with the texture softer than mahogany. That dust really gets the back of the throat though. I won't ask what the hard, dark stuff of the masts is. Richard Who has one or two ancient cigar boxes, now used for the storage of stuff like spare cutters and fence off the 71. ---- Start of Message 15018 ---- From: Chuck Zitur Date: 1997-03-13 13:58:00 Subject: bad email bad Richard Wilson informed me that my email is still looking ugly in a HTMLish way. I have changed to a different email program and will not use the first one until I can figure out what I have done. Sorry but it is important to me that this message gets out in a readable form. So one last time: Jerry and all I was not told by anyone that the topic (of the Pinewood Derby) was inappropriate. In fact of all of the questions that I have ever asked this one surely had an overwhelming response. I would guess that the question was answered by so many because of their own experiences rather recent or in the foggy past. Also there seems to be a common approval of father and son working together on a wood project. There is no question that the many members of this list are mostly family oriented people with strong values. Regardless, I realized that the question may have not been totally in line with everyone's expectation of the lists content. I simply wanted to thank them for their indulgence. Regards Chuck Zitur ---- Start of Message 15019 ---- From: J. Gunterman Date: 1997-03-13 14:09:00 Subject: Where is I this week?!?!?! well it appears that I made it back from the Left Coast in one peice. Customers network is Mucho Bueno now so I bagged a red eye back last night. went to Andy's, but the listserv being down prevented anybody fron knowing I was even there... till it was too late. I did buy a NOS BHlade sor my #2 got John Walters new Books (Bothe of them)! I really did the pocket sized guide, perfect for the glovebox of the bubbamobile. the big boiok itself was great fodder for the mind while babyusitting a sick net.( ie, watch a few RTMP's fly by on the sniffer, read another chapter,repeat endlessly throught the evening.... L8r, John ---- Start of Message 15020 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1997-03-13 14:55:00 Subject: Re: CABINET PITCH Don McC quotes : >Philip Walker in Salaman's _Dictionary of Tools_ provides the following >table: >... >Moulding Planes: > for softwoods 55 d. 'Middle pitch' > for hardwoods 60 d. 'Half pitch' The vast majority of my moulding planes (US,CDN,UK) are pitched at 50 deg. I also have a very few at 45 and 55-60. Does this mean I'm restricted to working balsa ? :-) Paul P Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 15021 ---- From: Michael Shafer Date: 1997-03-13 14:59:00 Subject: Re: HTML Formatted messages Greetings to all: In article 3.0.16.19970312204406.35ff2146@m..., you wrote: |WHY?? This sudden spasam of sending ordinary messages as HTML attachments? |It's very irritating to keep having to delete them from my DL directory. Just to possibly help answer this question I am told that one of the newer versions of Netscape (3.x I gather) automatically defaults to sending mail in HTML format. It can be turned off in the setup or can be customized for each address in a address book. Regards, Mike Shafer ---- Start of Message 15022 ---- From: Jerry Russell Date: 1997-03-13 15:28:00 Subject: Re: glue: C-A vs. epoxy > BTY acetone is the active ingredient in nail polish remover and a heck > of a lot cheaper to buy. It can be found at any hardware store. It's > the standard solvent for epoxy. It also cleans up C-A, I use it to soak gunky C-A bottle tips in and it will totally remove all the junk. (I keep several extra tips and rotate them around). - Jerry Who uses C-A to glue cracks in expensive turning blanks ---- Start of Message 15023 ---- From: Dave Wolverton Date: 1997-03-13 10:48:00 Subject: Re: toolbox bottoms Ken, On the oak carpenter's toolbox I restored last year, the bottom was TIG flooring. It was held in place in a rabbet (rebate) all around the bottom, w/o nails. The original design held up great. dave -- Dave Wolverton Email: dwolverton@l... Phone: 908-949-1125 ---- Start of Message 15024 ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1997-03-13 15:44:00 Subject: Re: HTML Formatted messages Michael Shafer wrote: > Just to possibly help answer this question I am told that one of the newer > versions of Netscape (3.x I gather) automatically defaults to sending mail > in HTML format. I'm using Netscape 3.01--are my posts causing problems? I looked through the setup, and don't see anything explicit about HTML/non-HTML formating. -- Ed Bell P2K North Cincinnati Bell Information Systems email: ed.bell@c... ---- Start of Message 15025 ---- From: Roger Rosner Date: 1997-03-13 16:01:00 Subject: galooting across KS, MO, IL, IN, OH... [Please forgive me if this already went out, but I didn't see it so I'm resending...] So whatever happened to the Neanderthal atlas project someone had embarked on a while back? I hate to trouble the list with this sort of question, but... I'm doing a cross country drive from Kansas through Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio and back to PA. Any advice you good galoots can offer as to what's "must see" ( "must buy"?) will be much appreciated. Roger P.S. And if anyone would like to compile an archive of what's cool where, I can contribute some material (NYC, London, Pittsburgh) plus a web site to put it on. ---- Start of Message 15026 ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1997-03-13 15:49:00 Subject: Re: Red Ivory? This is the response from my chemist brother-in-law. Some of it confirms what a previous response said. I'd guess this is something you'd want to do outdoors, in a pan you care nothing about. Dilute sulfuric is probably not much of a health resk. It would yield a small amount of sulphur trioxide. The explosive properties of a battery comes from the hydrogen produced during electrolysis associated with charging. -- Ed Bell P2K North Cincinnati Bell Information Systems email: ed.bell@c... ---- Start of Message 15027 ---- From: Mack McKinney Date: 1997-03-13 15:49:00 Subject: Re: Requesting a favor (fwd) Odeen@c...,Internet writes: >Esteemed Galootinous Friends, >I'm in the process of designing a fairly traditional tool chest (you >know, 3' long, 2' high, 2' wide, etc...) and am wondering how you all >would recommend attatching the bottom. >The three basic references that I have (Hasluck's 'The Handymans Book', >Tolpin's 'The Toolbox Book' and Jone's 'The Practicle Woodworker') all >state that the bottom was traditionally T&G nailed on from underneath. >This strikes me as a bit odd as the nails are in direct withdrawl here >and all of my experience with wood and engineering speaks against it. >I've checked out the math and, even taking a 85% reduction for loss of >holding power over time, it supports that there shouldn't be any >problems. But these are my *TOOLS* I'm talking about here. >There is one advantage of nailing it on as it is easy to replace if it >deteriorates over time. Then again, I was thinking of using glue along >with the nails :-) >I've looked at the article on Konovaloff's tool chest with it's panel >bottom, but that's a lot more work if the nails will be sufficient, as >would be housed T&G or ship lapped boards. These methods are also >non-reversible if the bottom should get wet, or split, or what have you. >Any opinions or experiences out there that you'd be willing to share? (Full text retained for clarity) Ken: Funny you should ask such a question. I am in the process of doing the very same thing, and am waiting on my user No.-48 to make it's way from Maine to Kentucky (gloat) so that I may t&g the floor. My thoughts on the floor are thus, and I know I am opening myself up to be burned to a crisp with the flames. But hey, charcoal burns longer (meaning, it wouldn't be the first time!) I figure to go ahead and nail the boards on just like the old guys used to do. My reasons are, 1. I have a lot of nails. 2. The floor is of a dissimilar wood from the sides, and therefore will expand/contract at different rates. Glue and screws may hold a little too well and cause splitting, which would be no big deal to replace the floor if I didn't have a penchant for using yellow glue. (I suppose I could use hot hide glue, didn't think of that until just now, and I call myself a luthier...) 3. I intend to nail the skirt into both the carcass _and_ into the endgrain of the floor (alternatively) in order to sort of tie the whole thing together. 4. I am moving soon, and this box is an expedient prototype to a real box (someday). 5. I don't have that many tools, and at least 1/3 of the weight will be supported by the rails that hold the tills (that I have yet to make) rather than resting directly on the floor. 6. Finally, I intend to add those additional boards (I can't remember what Tolpin called them) that are intended to be expendable, and to protect the floor from abrasion, moisture, etc. Makes the whole thing heavier, and requires the skirt to cover them up, but they should add additional support to the floor if they are nailed on in a similar fasion. I did spend some time thinking this issue over before I even started on the project, and those were the conclusions I reached. I am open, as always, to gentle correction, but that is my tuppence, FWIW. Keep us posted on your project. Mack -- Mack McKinney Virtual Library Research and Design B.L. Fisher Library - Asbury Theological Seminary 606.858.2355 ---- Start of Message 15028 ---- From: Dan Hogan Date: 1997-03-13 16:04:00 Subject: RE: FW: E-MAIL VIRUS WARNING I have been on the internet 8 years. To transmit any binery document and NOT have it scrambled as it passes through various servers, it has to be encoded. If I get any encoded documents that I did not ask for they get deleted without opening. The MS Word virus works as a Macro, but these are binery files anyway. I recognized the return address on the files I did open. But if I don't know the addressor-delete without opening, especially SPAM. I use Eudora Pro for Email, Agent for Newsgroups, and Netscape 3.0 for web. ---- Start of Message 15029 ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1997-03-13 11:05:00 Subject: RE: CABINET PITCH Paul Pedersen.... >> Don McC quotes : >>.. pitch angles,, > The vast majority of my moulding planes (US,CDN,UK) are pitched at 50 > deg. I also have a very few at 45 and 55-60. >Does this mean I'm restricted to working balsa ? :-) >Paul P But surely *everone* knows that balsa is a 'hardwood' ;-) Richard ---- Start of Message 15030 ---- From: Jerry Russell Date: 1997-03-13 16:07:00 Subject: Re: Eric sloane books Guapo wrote: > > The last two went real quick. Several of you responded to the second > post, I'll talk to the store mgr and see if other nearby B&Ns have any > copies. This book is available in paperback from Amazon books for $7.15. - The Diary of an Early American Boy - - by Eric Sloane - - Reissue Edition - Paperback - List: $7.95 -- Amazon.com Price: $7.15 -- You Save: $0.80(10%) - Published by Ballantine Books (Trd Pap) - Publication date: June 1974 - Dimensions (in inches): 7.98 x 5.34 x .39 - ISBN: 0345321006 I don't know how many of you are familiar with Amazon but they are an online bookstore with over 1 million titles located at: http://www.amazon.com I've bought from them before and they usually ship within a couple of days. Regards, - Jerry ---- Start of Message 15031 ---- From: John McCoy Date: 1997-03-13 16:13:00 Subject: Re: HTML Formatted messages Michael Shafer wrote: On Mar 13, 10:44, Ed Bell wrote: Just to possibly help answer this question I am told that one of the newer versions of Netscape (3.x I gather) automatically defaults to sending mail in HTML format. I'm using Netscape 3.01--are my posts causing problems? I looked through the setup, and don't see anything explicit about HTML/non-HTML formating. -- Ed Bell Ed's posts look fine. Chuck's (which started this) was from the Netscape 4.0 beta, so maybe it's 4.x not 3.x that defaults to HTML. In Netscape 3.x you want to enable the "allow 8 bit" option, and disable the "MIME (quoted-printable)" option. In general in mailers you want to select something like "plain text" and disable anything refering to "MIME". John just say (tm PL) "MIME - a solution looking for a problem" -- John McCoy mccoy@p... excp01@e... Motorola Inc Radio Products Group 8000 W Sunrise Blvd Plantation FL 33322 ---- Start of Message 15032 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-13 16:13:00 Subject: Re: galooting across KS, MO, IL, IN, OH... In a message dated 97-03-13 10:58:23 EST, rock@p... (Roger Rosner) writes: << P.S. And if anyone would like to compile an archive of what's cool where, I can contribute some material (NYC, London, Pittsburgh) plus a web site to put it on. >> If no one objects, I would be happy to volunteer. Please email all information on names, addresses, hours, phone numbers, etc. and I will put it together. Tool sources, museums, classes, or anything else of galoot interest. I will take information until April 1, compile it and get it to Roger. Dennis Heyza ---- Start of Message 15033 ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1997-03-13 16:34:00 Subject: Re: Eric sloane books I like Amazon, but be forewarned: they just maintain a list of books in print, they don't have a warehouse with books in them. You order a book, they call up the publisher and have it shipped. For books that have been recently discontinued, they will list the book in the database, and tell you later on that they can't get it (happened to me with Kinshott's book on making planes; ordered it in December, got a postcard in late January saying they couldn't get it). -- Andrew On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Jerry Russell wrote: > Guapo wrote: > > > > The last two went real quick. Several of you responded to the second > > post, I'll talk to the store mgr and see if other nearby B&Ns have any > > copies. > > This book is available in paperback from Amazon books for $7.15. > > - The Diary of an Early American Boy > - > - by Eric Sloane > - > - Reissue Edition > - Paperback > - List: $7.95 -- Amazon.com Price: $7.15 -- You Save: $0.80(10%) > - Published by Ballantine Books (Trd Pap) > - Publication date: June 1974 > - Dimensions (in inches): 7.98 x 5.34 x .39 > - ISBN: 0345321006 > > I don't know how many of you are familiar with Amazon but they are > an online bookstore with over 1 million titles located at: > > http://www.amazon.com > > I've bought from them before and they usually ship within a couple > of days. > > Regards, > > - Jerry > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 15034 ---- From: Fred Marsteller Date: 1997-03-13 16:34:00 Subject: Old wood Assembled galootdom, There's a fellow locally who is advertising a large mass of old oak 4x6x16' beams from an old tobacco warehouse for $11.50@ I'm getting ready to go have a look to check the quality. He also has old heart pine flooring and beams, but the price looks high ($3.50-$7.50/bf). Two questions: I am preparing to build a semi-traditional jointer's workbench. I had nearly resigned myself to going out and spending a bundle on maple for the top. These oak beams may present an option: oak is very hard and, I understand, more stable than maple. 4" of oak sure isn't going to move much! My question is whether the open grain, "splinteriness" of oak and sometimes dificult planing makes it undesirable for a benchtop. Opinions? Experiences? Second -- what is a reasonable price for antique pine? There's a chance that this guy is quoting lf rather than bf. For some things, I love the look of pine. Just need a sense of the price ballpark. Thanks, Fred -- Frederick A. Marsteller, Ph.D., GMHI, Room 402W 1256 Briarcliff Rd., NE, Atlanta, GA 30306 Phone: (404) 894-4343 Fax: (404) 894-8502 "The health of nations is more important than the wealth of nations." -- Will Durant ---- Start of Message 15035 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1997-03-13 17:39:00 Subject: Re: toolbox bottoms dave writes : >On the oak carpenter's toolbox I restored last year, the bottom >was TIG flooring. It was held in place in a rabbet (rebate) >all around the bottom, w/o nails. > >The original design held up great. Rebate or groove ? I'm having trouble seeing how a rebate could be used to hold TIG (? as in tongue-:in:-groove ? I've always called in tongue-and-groove) boards. A groove makes sense and is what I'd do (not that I've ever done it before...). Paul P Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 15036 ---- From: Alan N. Graham Date: 1997-03-13 13:05:00 Subject: Re: Old wood On 13 Mar 97 at 11:38, Fred Marsteller wrote: > I am preparing to build a semi-traditional jointer's workbench. I > had nearly resigned myself to going out and spending a bundle on > maple for the top. These oak beams may present an option: oak is > very hard and, I understand, more stable than maple. 4" of oak sure > isn't going to move much! My question is whether the open grain, > "splinteriness" of oak and sometimes dificult planing makes it > undesirable for a benchtop. My new workbench is made from red oak, including the top. Although it has only been in service for a few months, I have not noted any problem that can be traced to the "splinteriness" of oak. I have to admit I haven't planed the top to perfect flatness yet, so I don't know if this will pose any problem. FWIW Alan N. Graham ---- Start of Message 15037 ---- From: Sanford Moss Date: 1997-03-13 18:10:00 Subject: galoot progress and a couple of questions Dear Galoots, I want to thank you guys for directing me toward the fulfilling path of galootdom. I'm just putting the finishing touches (actually some paste wax) on a cherry buffet that was started back around Christmas. In those dark ages (pre-oldtools) I did use a txblx sxw to rough out the wood (common rough cherry), but since then it has been pretty much hand tools. Scrubbing, planing, and scraping the top (21" x 77") was one of the more satisfying things I've done without SWMBO. Two questions occur to me to pass your way. The first has to do with raised panel doors (there are four of them in this buffet). It still being winter and with low inside humidity here in New England, I've left about 1/4" for the door panels expand in more humid times. The problem is that they are now loose enough in the rails and stiles to rattle a bit when the doors are closed. Is there a precaution/fix to handle this? Second, the feet on this piece are fairly ornate, deep ogee mitered ones, and I'm not sure how they should have been fashioned with hand tools (I admit cheating, and using the txblx sxw to cut the coves). Drawknife? A humungous molding plane? You folks have also got me prowling the flea markets and junk shops looking for tools. The plane stuff seems pretty intimidating still, but breast drills and rachet screwdrivers seem to attract my interest. My local junk tool guy has an impressive Millers-Falls breast drill (#9?) that is probably worth the five bucks he wants for it, but somewhere along the line someone splashed it with aluminum paint. Is that a treatment that can be removed? Well, I plan to head out to Cape Cod for Eldred's tool auction on Saturday. Maybe I'll be lucky enough to meet some of you folks there. I hope so. Sandy ---- Start of Message 15038 ---- From: Dave Wolverton Date: 1997-03-13 16:15:00 Subject: Re: toolbox bottoms Thomas Koehler-Shepley wrote: > > Dave, do you mean a dado instead of a rabbet? Otherwise, I don't think > there is anything to hold the boards, unless you use nails. > Tom WHOOPS! Tom you are right. dave -- Dave Wolverton Email: dwolverton@l... Phone: 908-949-1125 ---- Start of Message 15039 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-13 18:33:00 Subject: Re:"Disston Gloat"- OLDTOOLS digest 1258 ErvSaws says: >>... The D-8 Rip saw also has a >>finger hole in the upper part of the handle for the index finger of the >>right hand. Bob Brode commented >I thought this was supposed to be for the thumb of the left hand? (At any >rate that certainly works better for me in practice.) In what seems to be my usual persuit of trivia, I checked the one I gloated about last week. (I suppose repeating gloats is forbidden in the FAQ, so I won't) But this handle has a groove to lead the index finger into that hole. It has another on the opposite side for the RH thumb. Much like a pistol grip, with a fitted place for the trigger finger. There is no help for the thumb of the left hand to fit the hole. In fact, the main handle hole is too small for me to grip with all four fingers. The index has to go somewhere else. And Lefties are "left" out yet again. (York, york - almost a pun there) >From what I ran into recently though, apparently there was a rainbow of handle shapes tied to Disston's saws. Makes it hard to compare notes and share trivia. Gene (who already traveled this path with trivial details of the #45, thinking they all must be similar) ---- Start of Message 15040 ---- From: Ed Chambers Date: 1997-03-13 18:40:00 Subject: Re: galoot progress and a couple of questions At 01:10 PM 3/13/97 -0500, Sanford Moss wrote: >Dear Galoots, > I want to thank you guys for directing me toward the fulfilling path >of galootdom. I'm just putting the finishing touches (actually some paste >wax) on a cherry buffet that was started back around Christmas. In those >dark ages (pre-oldtools) I did use a txblx sxw to rough out the wood (common >rough cherry), but since then it has been pretty much hand tools. >Scrubbing, planing, and scraping the top (21" x 77") was one of the more >satisfying things I've done without SWMBO. Two questions occur to me to >pass your way. > > The first has to do with raised panel doors (there are four of them >in this buffet). It still being winter and with low inside humidity here in >New England, I've left about 1/4" for the door panels expand in more humid >times. The problem is that they are now loose enough in the rails and >stiles to rattle a bit when the doors are closed. Is there a precaution/fix >to handle this? *snip* The typical treatment would be a dab of glue inside the groove at the middle of the top and bottom ends of each panel. A couple of brads through the back of each frame, also at top and bottom, would accomplish the same thing, provided they aren't long enough to bust through to the front (ouch!). Since the panel is only fixed at these two points (and besides, the grain is running vertically), this won't impede movement appreciably. Or you may just learn to enjoy the gentle rattle of your handiwork. Ed ---- Start of Message 15041 ---- From: erik peters Date: 1997-03-13 12:31:00 Subject: Arizona Antique Tool Collectors Meeting When..........7pm March 13th Thats Tonight!!! Where.........Phoenix Forge, 130 E. Taylor St. Phoenix, AZ Wear old cloths, its a working forge. If you can come, your welcome. ep ---- Start of Message 15042 ---- From: Karl W. Sanger Date: 1997-03-13 19:05:00 Subject: Re: L.S.Starrett Co. - copyright? David wrote in part: Date: 1997-03-13 19:13:00 Subject: Glue and filling edge gaps I need to glue five 3.5" x 5.5" x 6' boards for a benchtop. The first to-be-done lamination has a max gap of 1/32" before clamping. The second TBD lamination has a max gap of 1/8", naturally at one end of the boards. I've haven't worked on #2 as much as the first one. How much of a gap is acceptable when edge-glueing boards? If I use an epoxy, or this gap-filling PVA glue sold by GarrettWade, will these gaps close, or should I continue to work the surfaces down to closer tolerances? I'm not looking forward to the last two laminations *at all*. The boards are pretty wavy, and there's one gap of around 1/4". Anyone in the Portland, Oregon area care to volunteer the use of an *l*ctr*c jointer? ---- Start of Message 15044 ---- From: David R. Hunkins Date: 1997-03-13 19:40:00 Subject: New: Simpson Machine Tool Co. Hand tool Junkies, Maybe others have heard of this, but I haven't seen anything posted, so here goes: In light of our eager and endless search for new and old hand tools, I'm posting about another maker of new/old tools that we may want to try and support as we have with Independence Tools, Ron Hock, L-N, Geek Spokeshaves, and the newest Kelly Tool Works. In a Woodshop News last fall I came across an article about a new company called Simpson Machine Tool Co. out of Gettysburg PA. They are making reproductions of Stanley Odd Jobs with 6" or 12" rules, 2 variations of "leg" calipers (male & female to be PC), and a neat looking tool they call a "handled carving spoon". I have not purchased any of these items, nor have any financial connection to anyone involved. I just think it's our duty, as tool aficionados, to test-drive their products and support all the new manufacturers that meet our standards. I'll quote from the article. Dave Simpson, the owner, sounds like he belongs on the Porch. "A Pennsylvania machinist has launched a new line of finely crafted hand tools designed for woodworkers. Simpson Machine Tool Co., a family-owned business specializing in custom fixtures a nd tooling for the metalworking trade, is venturing into new but not uncharted territory. Company president Dave Simpson has been an amateur woodworker for almost 20 years, and recently decided to combine his toolmaking experience with his firsthand knowledge of smallshop woodworking. Though his initial offerings resurrect older tool designs, he explained his focus is to improve them with better metals and more precise machining. "We set out first to make things that are really quality (products), and for now we'll stay with 19th-century tools," Simpson said. "We wanted to show they can still be great for people who really like doing high end work with hand tools." A multipurpose shop aid called the No. 1 Odd Jobs, introduced by Stanley Works of New Britain, Conn., offers practical uses no matter what the shop activity. Odd Jobs serves as a layout, measuring, alignment, scribing and setup tool; a depth gauge; and a compass, but is small enough to fit in the pocket of a shop apron. The 4" tall arrow-shaped body is cast from magnesium bronze instead of the iron used in the originals, a change Simpson made because the bronze doesn't rust and won't crack when dropped. Stainless steel fittings (knurled thumb screws and a locking scribe post), a built-in level vial, and a brass-trimmed maple ruler complete the picture. Simpson has the bronze castings made at a custom foundry, then machines them in-house to within .0015". "We take a woodworking tool and make it to tolerances for machine shop use," he said. The No. 1 Odd Jobs sells for $49.95." Walter's newest edition lists an original Stanley with ruler at $150-350. I've never considered buying a Stanley, but I might buy a Simpson for $50! "The second of the company's new tools-a carving spoon that dishes out wood s havings as it's pulled along the workpiece-also features a magnesium bronze body. A single casting forms the tool's handle and head, and an adjustable cutter, made from air-hardened tool steel, nests at the business end. The seat for the 3/16" thick, 1 3/8" wide cutter is machined for a tight fit so there's no side play or chatter. According to the company, the spoon is designed for general carving; scooping out chair seats, bowl blanks or carved shells; making architectural moldings; and roughing out gun stocks. The price is $39.95, and spare cutters are offered for $15.50 each. Optional special cutter grinds for exotics and other dense woods are available upon request." Ok, I'm tired of typing and am stopping! Hope the spell checker in Eudora Pro works! Check it our yourself at: http://www.SMTCo.com Cheers, David ---- Start of Message 15045 ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 1997-03-13 19:52:00 Subject: Re: Old wood At 11:38 AM 3/13/97 -0500, Fred Marsteller wrote: >I am preparing to build a semi-traditional jointer's workbench. I had >nearly resigned myself to going out and spending a bundle on maple for >the top. These oak beams may present an option: oak is very hard and, I >understand, more stable than maple. 4" of oak sure isn't going to move >much! My question is whether the open grain, "splinteriness" of oak and >sometimes dificult planing makes it undesirable for a benchtop. > >Opinions? Experiences? My bench top is made of oak. A lot of old (1700's-1800's) benchs that I see, the top or the front section of the top (not all were one solid piece) were made of oak. I've had some problems with tearout, but then the pieces I used weren't "primo" either. Old oak is very hard and if you keep it oiled, the splintering shouldn't be a probelm. It is going to be fun hand planing the stuff. Having just planed an oak board for a shelf it was a bit trying. I was either too deep or just skating along the board. The dog holes are still as crisp (I use square wooden dogs) as the day they were cut (and they were cut before the top was glued up). > >Second -- what is a reasonable price for antique pine? There's a chance >that this guy is quoting lf rather than bf. For some things, I love the >look of pine. Just need a sense of the price ballpark. > I don't have feel for that. Maybe someone else can help. Tony ___________________________________________________________________ One is an interest Two is a collection Three is an obsession ___________________________________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 15046 ---- From: David Erickson Date: 1997-03-13 19:57:00 Subject: unusual indicator Galoots, this is not your usual woodworking tool query, but some of you (Karl among others) are knowledgeable about or have an interest in precision machinists tools. I picked up an interesting indicator at the local high-tech industry cast-offs supplier, and wonder if anyone can provide some information about it or the company that made it. It is an indicator with a full range of .004", and which has divisions for .00002", i.e. every 2/100,000's of an inch. It was mfd. by the Hamilton Watch Co. and has a 4" dia. bezel. I knew that Hamilton Watch Co. made fine watches, but was not aware that they made precision tools. Dave Erickson ---- Start of Message 15047 ---- From: David Erickson[SMTP:davide@R...] Date: 1997-03-13 19:57:00 Subject: unusual indicator Many of the watch/clock makers made their own test equipment. I have a couple guages/calipers from the Elgin Watch Co. > ---------- > From: David Erickson[SMTP:davide@R...] > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 1997 11:57 AM > To: sangerkw@m... > Cc: oldtools@l... > Subject: unusual indicator > > Galoots, > > this is not your usual woodworking tool query, but some of you (Karl > among others) > are knowledgeable about or have an interest in precision machinists > tools. > > I picked up an interesting indicator at the local high-tech industry > cast-offs > supplier, and wonder if anyone can provide some information about it > or the > company that made it. It is an indicator with a full range of .004", > and which has > divisions for .00002", i.e. every 2/100,000's of an inch. It was mfd. > by the > Hamilton Watch Co. and has a 4" dia. bezel. I knew that Hamilton > Watch Co. made > fine watches, but was not aware that they made precision tools. > > Dave Erickson > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 15048 ---- From: GACHASSIN, KRIS Date: 1997-03-13 20:18:00 Subject: Bio - Kris Gachassin Hey porch puppies -- I guess its time that I properly introduce myself. My name is Kris Gachassin (Ga-Sha-San). My current residence is Daphne, Alabama. Daphne is just 15 miles east of Mobile on the Gulf Coast. I am originally a native of South Louisiana, deep in the heart of Cajun Country. I am 32 years old, happily married to my lovely wife Pam, and have two girls age 6˝ and 4. By day and some long nights I earn my living as a construction estimator for a large engineering and construction company based out of Birmingham, Alabama. As with most of you other Galloots, my woodworking interests were sparked by the Almighty - Norm the Abnormal. Up until the last few years, I would have discounted the use of tools without tails as being inefficient and not very accurate. Thanks to American Woodworker Magazine my interest in traditional woodworking was sparked by an article featuring Mike Dunbar and the construction of Windsor chairs. Picture this -- go to flea market, bag some rusty iron, clean-tune-and Scary Sharp. Swish-swish-swish and before you know it, I'm ankle deep in a pile of shavings!! Poor belt sandah must go -- too slow and does not produce as smooth of a surface. Now I am not saying that I will free all of my tailed tools, but I do introduce more and more hand tool work in my projects. Pit sawing and hand scrubbing many BF of lumber is not my idea of fun. In modern day woodworking I feel there is a good balance between hand and p*w*r tool work. So far I have not made Mike's chair making class but it is still high on my list. The drive from Mobile to Portsmouth is kind of rough. My tool interests at this point are definitely user and not collectors. Tool hunts in the Deep South have proven tough. I guess that the humid and corrosive atmosphere down South is tough on iron. I still find it hard to believe that in a city as old as Mobile (circa 1702) that more old tools don't show up. Any old tool suggestions in the Southeast would be appreciated. There is a gentleman who is a MWTCA member and has just opened an antique shop with a good collection of users and collectors near me. This has helped a lot. Latest purchase was a Stanley No. 18 block plane. Minor tune-up, hone the iron, and it will now produce shavings with a 4.2 second hang time. Current project list: * Tavern style dining table -- Antique longleaf yellow pine top w/ painted base * Real work bench -- possibly Kirby style. I hope this doesn't re-ignite Klauz vs Kirby debate. If any of you Galloots ever make it down South give me a call. I will show you around the area and cook you a real mean Cajun gumbo. So Galloots, if there is room on the porch can I pull up a seat, chew the fat a while, and drink a few beers ? Sincerely Kris Gachassin ---- Start of Message 15049 ---- From: Webber, Bill Date: 1997-03-13 16:48:00 Subject: RE: Millers Falls in buisness? Hey, I just spoke to a Mr. Jim Switzer, a Vice President of Development at Emerson Electric. He's been there 18 years and has never heard of Miller Falls. They have never manufacutred non-electric woodworking tools of any kind. BTW, emerson Electric is recently involved with Bosch and Vermont American. ...but lets keep tryin' Regards, Bill W. _______________________________________________________________________________ > Subj: Millers Falls in buisness? > > Chris Schafer said: > > I think that the M-F company was bought by that > paragon of capitalism, (stars & stripes in the > background & America the Beautiful from the > loudspeakers please), > THE EMERSON ELECTRIC COMPANY ---- Start of Message 15050 ---- From: Andy Wilkins Date: 1997-03-13 21:52:00 Subject: Re: galoot progress and a couple of questions hi your buffet sounds really nice. > The first has to do with raised panel doors (there are four of > them > in this buffet). It still being winter and with low inside humidity > here in > New England, I've left about 1/4" for the door panels expand in more > humid > times. The problem is that they are now loose enough in the rails and > stiles to rattle a bit when the doors are closed. Is there a > precaution/fix > to handle this? three things come to mind - glue, nails (brads) or wedges. Just put your favourite fixing method (glue, brads or wedges) in the middle of the top and bottom of the panels (assuming the grain runs vertically). I had a similar problem with my recent project (raised panel jewelry box) - because i finished the panel with shellac and wax before i constructed the box i couldn't use glue (doesn't stick to wax) and nails seemed pretty monstrous on a jewelry box so i used tiny wedges (shims really). > Second, the feet on this piece are fairly ornate, deep ogee > mitered > ones, and I'm not sure how they should have been fashioned with hand > tools > (I admit cheating, and using the txblx sxw to cut the > coves). Drawknife? A > humungous molding plane? without a moulding plane (i would imagine they're pretty rare) i would be tempted to carve them. ever since i won some free carving lessons :-) i have been amazed at how easy it is to create small bits of moulding with carving tools. with no exageration i can say that it's virtually as quick as setting up a moulding plane etc (for small pieces anyway). it also gives you the freedom to carve other bits of things too (like little flowers or whatever you're into). now i'm probably going to put my foot in my mouth: i wouldn't be suprised if in the nineteenth century there were people who specialised in making mouldings, either with machines or with massive moulding planes. if i was making something with handtools i think i'd spend the small amount of extra time making carved legs rather than going to the expense of buying a machine that would make such massive mouldings for me. you can make fairly simple but effective feet in a matter of a few hours. A -- apprentice neanderthal #42 homepage: http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/cgi-pschulz/andy-cgi/andyhome woodpage: http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/~awilkins/wood.html ---- Start of Message 15051 ---- From: Andy Wilkins Date: 1997-03-13 22:06:00 Subject: Walter's book hi, for the last few years i've heard about this infamous item and had sort of thought that it was one of those urban myths. now it seems as if john gunterman has actually managed to get a copy. sorry if this is old news but could someone tell me - what's in it - how much it costs - how long is the waiting list (in days, weeks, years??) - where do i order it from (remember i live in aussy so phone numbers won't help me) A -- apprentice neanderthal #42 homepage: http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/cgi-pschulz/andy-cgi/andyhome woodpage: http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/~awilkins/wood.html ---- Start of Message 15052 ---- From: Pierre Fogal Date: 1997-03-13 14:49:00 Subject: Old Wood Fred Marsteller asked ... > I am preparing to build a semi-traditional jointer's workbench. I had > nearly resigned myself to going out and spending a bundle on maple for > the top. These oak beams may present an option: oak is very hard and, I > understand, more stable than maple. 4" of oak sure isn't going to move > much! My question is whether the open grain, "splinteriness" of oak and > sometimes dificult planing makes it undesirable for a benchtop. Fred, My father who worked as a cabinet maker for many years built his bench of red oak back in the early 50's. It is every bit as serviceable as ever, and the top planed quite smooth judging from its current condition. Of course it does show the scars from 40 years of use! In my eyes it is a very desirable bench. Back from the frozen north one #8C lighter .... Pierre Dr. Pierre Fogal Physics Dept., University of Denver Denver, CO, USA. ---- Start of Message 15053 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-13 14:49:00 Subject: Re: Millers Falls in buisness? > Hey, > > I just spoke to a Mr. Jim Switzer, a Vice President of > Development at Emerson Electric. He's been there 18 > years and has never heard of Miller Falls. They have > never manufacutred non-electric woodworking tools of > any kind. BTW, emerson Electric is recently involved > with Bosch and Vermont American. > > ...but lets keep tryin' > > Regards, > Bill W. According to Thomas Register's web site: Thomas" target="_top" >http://www.thomasregister.com">Thomas Register this is the current contact information for "Millers Falls"... Millers Falls Tool Co. Cincinnati, OH 45227-3411 USA 513-271-3300 FAX: 513-527-3742 Hand Tools. - Don ---- Start of Message 15054 ---- From: C Newbold Date: 1997-03-13 22:06:00 Subject: RE: OLDTOOLS digest 1269 Sandy Moss asked a couple questions about his very ambitious cherry buffet. ....snipping a bit "The first has to do with raised panel doors (there are four of them in this buffet). It still being winter and with low inside humidity here in New England, I've left about 1/4" for the door panels expand in more humid times. The problem is that they are now loose enough in the rails and stiles to rattle a bit when the doors are closed. Is there a precaution/fix to handle this?" Yup, pin the panels at the center of the ends. Be sure to center the panel in the rails to allow both sides to expand when the summer humidity make them swell. "Second, the feet on this piece are fairly ornate, deep ogee mitered ones, and I'm not sure how they should have been fashioned with hand tools (I admit cheating, and using the txblx sxw to cut the coves). Drawknife? A humungous molding plane?" Those big molding planes were usually used for crown moldings, so I doubt you could find a matching profile. Even if you could, it would cost several hundred dollars. The coves can be done by roughing out with a plow plane, then smoothing with big hollow and round planes. The convex parts could be done with a bench plane or a rabbet plane. "You folks have also got me prowling the flea markets and junk shops looking for tools. The plane stuff seems pretty intimidating still, but breast drills and rachet screwdrivers seem to attract my interest. My local junk tool guy has an impressive Millers-Falls breast drill (#9?) that is probably worth the five bucks he wants for it, but somewhere along the line someone splashed it with aluminum paint. Is that a treatment that can be removed?" Bummer, but for the price, it might be worth a try. No promises, just options. If the aluminum paint job is thin and was done without the proper surface prep or primer, it might just come off with a wire brush or a scraper. Paint specks and small blobs sometimes will come off by just pushing on the edges with a soft, pointed tool or a nail. If there is rust or dirt and oil under the aluminum, it might come off with an electrolysis treatment. (Check John Gunterman's site for a how-to-do-it.) If you are adventurous, you might also try using brake fluid as a paint remover. That stuff will eat most paints. I used it on a cheap, flea market breast drill that had been totally spray painted, even the gears and threads. The spray paint came right off after a short soak and a little gentle persuasion from a wire brush. The original baked enameled finish was unharmed. But, the painted wooden handle finish was dulled a little bit. It still looks much better than the (hunter safety orange) spray job. Test a small spot first and hope it was bad paint job. "Well, I plan to head out to Cape Cod for Eldred's tool auction on Saturday. Maybe I'll be lucky enough to meet some of you folks there. I hope so." Ooh, ooh! I'm game. I had forgotten about that auction. Maybe I can get there, too! Charlie ---- Start of Message 15055 ---- From: SBMarcus Date: 1997-03-13 22:11:00 Subject: Re: CABINET PITCH > >~ unless it was from the lots of "yorks" the funny looking near-vertical > > ~ conformation received. > >Now there's a term I haven't read before. Me neither - explanation > please... Sorry, Richard, Jeff and all! Bad wordplay, probably the result of weather finally having come to Maine after the mildest winter in decades. We call it cabin fever. How do you explain wordplay? Let's see, I was "inspired" to see in the proper noun York a similarity to the mild expression of distaste "yuck", as well as the homonym "yuck", which is a colloquialism for "laugh", and to cap it off the word had an onomatopoeic quality that I'd rather not go into. Of course, all that "inspiration" might only be appreciated by an ear Brooklyn born and tuned , as mine was. Is there a back porch on this joint? Could someone please show me the way? Bruce ---- Start of Message 15056 ---- From: Aaron Ionta Date: 1997-03-13 22:16:00 Subject: Bio-Aaron Ionta Hello gregarious galoots! - I have only been lurking for a short while and it already feels like home with everyone joking, bickering, sharing secrets, .etc.. (I have 4 sisters, 1 brother) My Name is Aaron Ionta (eye-on-ta). I live with my wife Jennifer, and our cat Huckleberry in Minneapolis, MN otherwise called the great Tool Tundra (stole that one from Bruce Vansloun ?Sp.?) I work for a systems integration company, and I do Software Telephone support by day. I have been interested in woodworking and tools since I was a child especially planes. I got interested in visiting the porch by listening in at theoak and decided that if I was ever going to get my 3 planes Scary Sharp(TM) that I had better get directions to the porch. Well I guess I'm on the bottom step not trying to slip on my own drool I'm glad to be here in the company of y'all (lived in Austin, TX 10 years) p.s. Thanks for all of the info on Electrolysis Aaron \|// (O=O) =================oOO(_)OOo=================== OK! here are the goods 1 Baily #4 that I need to date yet 1 Record Technical Plane - it is approx the size of a number 5 and has extra webbing and higher sides (supposed to be perpedicular), and the sides each have 1 threaded hole in them for handles (I was told) 1 new #5 Stanley ( a gift) that the goods! -- \\\\\\\\\\\ ////////////////////// @ ////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\ Aaron R. Ionta Home Phone 612-925-9849 IntraNet Solutions Inc. 9625 West 76th St. Suite #150 Eden Prairie, Minnesota 55344 aaron.ionta@i... Support Phone 888-688-8324 - Toll Free 612-903-2020 Direct Line 612-903-2032 ---- Start of Message 15057 ---- From: Karl Dunn Date: 1997-03-13 21:18:00 Subject: Re: New: Simpson Machine Tool Co. drhunk@c... wrote: >In a Woodshop News last fall I came across an article about a new company >called Simpson Machine Tool Co. out of Gettysburg PA. They are making >reproductions of Stanley Odd Jobs with 6" or 12" rules, 2 variations of >"leg" calipers (male & female to be PC), and a neat looking tool they call >a "handled carving spoon". I have not purchased any of these items, nor >have any financial connection to anyone involved. I just think it's our >duty, as tool aficionados, to test-drive their products and support all the >new manufacturers that meet our standards. > >I'll quote from the article. Dave Simpson, the owner, sounds like he >belongs on the Porch. "A Pennsylvania machinist has launched a new line of >finely crafted hand tools designed for woodworkers..... Big Snip >machines them in-house to within .0015". "We take a woodworking tool and >make it to tolerances for machine shop use," he said. The No. 1 Odd >Jobs sells for $49.95." > >Walter's newest edition lists an original Stanley with ruler at $150-350. >I've never considered buying a Stanley, but I might buy a Simpson for $50! GG's I can't speak to the calipers so I won't, but I've looked at and fondled the SMTC version of the Stanley #1 Odd Jobs. The casting is very nice (Bronze), and at least on the one I looked at the machining was done well. However, what bothered be about it most was the rule. It was brass bound, but the markings were not stamped or engraved on, they were only painted and poorly at that. They could easily be scratched off with a fingernail. (mine anyway ;-) Now, I've only seen and played with original Odd Jobs without the rules, but I have to believe the original rules were better made than that. Karl Who will not spend $50 on an SMTC #1 in this life. ---- Start of Message 15058 ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1997-03-13 22:16:00 Subject: RE: Millers Falls in buisness? I have a 1994 catalog from Silvio Tools, a mail order/hardware store outfit. They list a number of MF tools I thought had gone out of production long ago, including a serious mitre box, eggbeaters, and braces. Have no idea where their stock comes from, but if all else fails I can dig their number out. Prices were not cheap (the mitre box was in the several hundreds). --Andrew ---- Start of Message 15059 ---- From: Sanford Moss Date: 1997-03-13 22:23:00 Subject: Re: galoot progress and a couple of questions At 07:22 AM 3/14/97 +0930, Andy Wilkins wrote: >hi > >your buffet sounds really nice. Thanks Andy, I think it is turning out much better than a relative newcomer to furniture making should expect. Of course I see the little imperfections (a little tearout here and there, a wandering saw cut that is hidden behind a drawer kicker), but most people outside of the galoot world wouldn't notice them. > I had a similar problem with my recent project (raised >panel jewelry box) - because i finished the panel with shellac and wax >before i constructed the box i couldn't use glue (doesn't stick to >wax) and nails seemed pretty monstrous on a jewelry box so i used >tiny wedges (shims really). This is a nice suggestion. Several people have mentioned glue or brads, but a shim might work. Perhaps even the small felt pads for box feet. I might give this a try. It sure wouldn't be as permanent as a nail or glue. >without a moulding plane (i would imagine they're pretty rare) i would >be tempted to carve them. ever since i won some free carving lessons >:-) i have been amazed at how easy it is to create small bits of >moulding with carving tools. with no exageration i can say that it's >virtually as quick as setting up a moulding plane etc (for small pieces >anyway). it also gives you the freedom to carve other bits of things >too (like little flowers or whatever you're into). These feet are on the large size, maybe 5 x 10 inches on all four sides of the buffet, and they "wrap around" stylized fluted columns on the front. The cove in the ogee is about an inch deep and the "ears" are pretty ornate. I look forward to learning something about carving. >now i'm probably going to put my foot in my mouth: >i wouldn't be suprised if in the nineteenth century there were people >who specialised in making mouldings, either with machines or with >massive moulding planes. if i was making something with handtools i >think i'd spend the small amount of extra time making carved legs >rather than going to the expense of buying a machine that would make >such massive mouldings for me. you can make fairly simple but >effective feet in a matter of a few hours. Actually, I was looking at similar feet on some of the Newport 18th Century furniture in the Boston Fine Arts Museum a few weeks ago, and the more elaborate designs had some extra adornment highlighting the decoration. They were definitely carved. The later claw and ball feet also are clearly carved, and some of the examples from the Philadelphia period furniture are almost breathtaking in the detail of the toe scales and webbing between the toes. Thanks for your helpful advice. Sandy ---- Start of Message 15060 ---- From: Andy Wilkins[SMTP:awilkins@p...] Date: 1997-03-13 22:34:00 Subject: Walter's book I picked up the paperback version at the local Woodcraft store for $30.00. I know they also carry the pocket guide but, I'm not sure about the hard cover. Paul >---------- >From: Andy Wilkins[SMTP:awilkins@p...] >Sent: Thursday, March 13, 1997 3:06 PM >To: oldtools@l... >Subject: Walter's book > >hi, > >for the last few years i've heard about this infamous item and had >sort of thought that it was one of those urban myths. now it seems as >if john gunterman has actually managed to get a copy. sorry if this >is old news but could someone tell me >- what's in it >- how much it costs >- how long is the waiting list (in days, weeks, years??) >- where do i order it from (remember i live in aussy so phone numbers >won't help me) > >A > >-- >apprentice neanderthal #42 >homepage: http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/cgi-pschulz/andy-cgi/andyhome >woodpage: http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/~awilkins/wood.html > >---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 15061 ---- From: Karl W. Sanger Date: 1997-03-13 22:34:00 Subject: Re: Millers Falls Galoot dejur mystery fans: I'll add to the mystery of where, oh where might Millers Falls be. I have a tool and have seen a letter head that indicated that Millers Falls removed to the wilds of New Jersey in about the 1970's. I also remember being told that this was only one part of the company - the hand tools part - and the tool I have/had is a pretty lousy plane. I also recall hearing the Ingersol Rand connection to Millers Falls. Confused? Me too. From one who has an old Millers Falls collection and doesn't care about new Millers Falls, but has seen the Millers Falls chimney in Millers Falls, Ma. ***************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * * * Email: sangerkw@m... * ***************************************** ---- Start of Message 15062 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-13 22:52:00 Subject: Type study for Stanley 45's Galoots, I'm trying to date a 45 that I am resurrecting from the dead. In the dark reaches of my memory (and you don't want to pursue this any further) I seem to recall discussion of a 45 type study but I can't seem to find it. Does anyone know where I can locate this study? Thanks George ---- Start of Message 15063 ---- From: SBMarcus Date: 1997-03-13 22:32:00 Subject: Re: toolbox bottoms (? as in tongue-:in:-groove ? I've always called > in tongue-and-groove) boards. Around here we call them matched boards. Easier to say. Easier to type. Bruce ---- Start of Message 15064 ---- From: SBMarcus Date: 1997-03-13 22:36:00 Subject: Re: Requesting a Favor (Fwd) > Perhaps some restorer galoots would comment on whether cut nails were > dovetailed when applied blind, (or did it become necessary with the > introduction of round wire 'slip pins'. ) Never seen that. Don't think it would be necessary or wise in softwood (see my post). Bruce ---- Start of Message 15065 ---- From: SBMarcus Date: 1997-03-13 22:56:00 Subject: Re: galoot progress and a couple of questions The problem is that they are now loose enough in the rails and > stiles to rattle a bit when the doors are closed. Is there a precaution/fix > to handle this? If the panels were made with a 1/4-3/8 wide flat (depending whether soft or hard wood) just a hair thinner than the groove, between the bottom of the incline and the edge, they will move but won't rattle. Its not a great idea to fasten the panel in with brads or glue. They need to move. The best fix is to cut thin strips to fill the gap between the back of the panel and the side of the groove, put a very thin film of glue on the side of the strip facing the groove side and push up into the gap with a piece of wood. Don't worry if it all doesn't get up in. Just carefully cut off excess with a sharp knife. > > Second, the feet on this piece are fairly ornate, deep ogee mitered > ones, and I'm not sure how they should have been fashioned with hand tools > (I admit cheating, and using the txblx sxw to cut the coves). Drawknife? A > humungous molding plane? You can do it with a bowsaw to cut the profiles out then finish up with files and scrapers. ---- Start of Message 15066 ---- From: Andy Wilkins Date: 1997-03-13 23:01:00 Subject: Re: Glue and filling edge gaps hi, you wrote >I need to glue five 3.5" x 5.5" x 6' boards for a benchtop. The first > to-be-done lamination has a max gap of 1/32" before clamping. The > second > TBD lamination has a max gap of 1/8", naturally at one end of the > boards. > I've haven't worked on #2 as much as the first one. > > How much of a gap is acceptable when edge-glueing boards? If I use an > epoxy, or this gap-filling PVA glue sold by GarrettWade, will these > gaps > close, or should I continue to work the surfaces down to closer > tolerances? i'm not sure if i understand you, but i'd say that 1/8" is probably ok on a length of six feet, but why is it at the end of the board?? that is not good. i did a similar job (maybe 7 feet) and i wasn't at all fussed with a 1.5-2mm gap. but i don't understand why you should need gap-filling glue - are you planning _not_ to use clamps to pull the joint together? if you haven't got any clamps then you can make some out of bits of crappy wood and wedges although they're not really as good as proper clamps. the trick of edge jointing is to joint _both_ the boards at once --- i'll assume that you have got the boards reasonably square and flat (perfection is undesireable at the moment because you're going to have to surface the panel once it's jointed up anyway and it seems a waste of wood and tools to get to perfection twice). put them in a vice (or whatever clamping system you have got rigged up) with their face sides together. then go about jointing the edge that's face up towards you. despite what leach et. al. tell you, it's not necessary to own a #8 - over a length of 6' you can easily use a number 4 or 5, you just have to be a little bit more careful (i only owned a #4+1/2 for ages and it worked very well for me). the cool thing about this method is that you don't need a straight edge or anything - all you need to do is take the pieces out of the vice and put them on top of each other as if you were about to glue them together. if light shows at the ends then your boards are convex, if light shows at the middle then your boards are concave, if light shows all over the place then you haven't got them flat yet. you want the boards slightly concave (light showing in the middle), for two reasons (1) that as the wood works it tends to distroy the joints from the outside in and thus you should glue up so the outsides really want to be together, and (2) in theory you only need one clamp in the middle of the boards for the glue-up. if you don't understand the above story then just email me. > I'm not looking forward to the last two laminations *at all*. The > boards > are pretty wavy, and there's one gap of around 1/4". Anyone in the > Portland, > Oregon area care to volunteer the use of an *l*ctr*c jointer? glue two boards together, then another two, then the last one to one of the pairs and then finally do the 2+3 =5 glueup. you might have to redo the edge when you do that final glueup - the boards _might_ have warped a little bit during the initial glueups (but in my very limited experience that doesn't happen). sorry if i've insulted your experience by writing this long spiel, or if i've totally misunderstood your question! A -- apprentice neanderthal #42 homepage: http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/cgi-pschulz/andy-cgi/andyhome woodpage: http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/~awilkins/wood.html ---- Start of Message 15067 ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1997-03-13 16:00:00 Subject: RE: glue: C-A vs. epoxy ** Reply to note from scot.e.echols@e... Wed, 12 Mar 1997 09:36:42 -0800 My .02 worth... In a former life, I was an avid builder and flyer of RC airplanes (sort of a power saw with wings. ;-_). I've used CA and Epoxy side by side for years primarily with Balsa and spruce. I found that I typically used CA for things that were not overly critical strength wise and had a fairly tight fit. Anything that was critical, I always used 2 part Epoxy. Also, for gap filling, I have a bottle of micro baloons which feels like foam dust. You mix it with the Epoxy to thicken it for filling spaces. If I needed to wick Epoxy, I mixed in some rubbing alcohol to thin it down. I too was an RC modeler and agree with Scott. Several times while doing repairs I would use a small amount of CA to hold things in place while the epoxy cured. In effect the CA acted as pins or clamps. For wicking epoxy I would use slower curing stuff and use a heat gun to thin it. I would put on the surface at a crack and by GENTLY heating I could cause it to wick in. You need slower cure otherwise the heat will cause it to cure right on the surface. ernie The Arizona tool sink, IT #22 ---- Start of Message 15068 ---- From: Dr Steven Thomas Date: 1997-03-13 16:00:00 Subject: DAMASCUS STEEL > While out scrounging around yesterday I came across and old > crosscut saw with a nice carved handle. The brand was > apparently WIZARD? and the blade had DAMASCUS STEEL etched > across the top of the logo with a bunch of other stuff I > couldn't make out. They wanted $8 for it - I didn't know > what it was so I left it there. If anyone knows anything > about these I like to hear from you. Jerry, I was recently reading a book on knife making that I borrowed from the library. I can't remember the title, author etc though. It featured an American guy who specialised in making knives from damascus steel. In this context it involved laminating 2 different steels together by hand blacksmith style. These were then folded/cut and rewelded over and over so that each time the chunk of steel was hammered out the laminations became thinner and thinner, and increased in number 2 fold each time. The result was a blade that had a sort of wood grained pattern which resulted from the multiple laminations of the 2 slightly different coloured steels. In this form damascus steel is highly prized (at least for knives) as it is hard to make, is very beautiful and holds an excellent edge (apparently). The photos were certainly stunning. Somehow I doubt that the saw that you saw was of such steel, although if covered by a layer of gunk/oxidation this may not be evident. I would try a discrete removal of some of the gunk, and if it were of such steel, I would grab it as I am sure that it would clean up to a really attractive specimen. This may be totally off the track, but also may be just some interesting info. Steven __________________________________________________________________ In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is a big difference. __________________________________________________________________ Steven Thomas PhD Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research Level 4, Block E Monash Medical Centre Clayton, Victoria 3168. AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 3 9550 4380 Fax: +61 3 9550 6125 email: Steven.Thomas@m... ---- Start of Message 15069 ---- From: John R Mudd Date: 1997-03-13 23:38:00 Subject: Re: Glue and filling edge gaps I thought I was being clear but maybe I over-simplified things. How much gap is acceptable when edge-joining boards? On one edge that I call ready to-be-glued, I have 1/32", without clamping. On another edge that I have not finished planing yet, I have around 1/8", w/o clamping. I suspect the 1/32" gap will clamp nicely when it is glued. But how much gap can exist before I need to consider a gap-filling glue? I can clamp the gap out of the joint at the risk of a glue-starved joint. I can handplane the joints perfect, at the risk of some sore knees (I don't have a bench yet--this *is* my benchtop) and a lot of hard work. Surely there's a happy medium in here, somewhere. Someone wrote: > the trick of edge jointing is to joint _both_ the boards at once ... > over a length of 6' you can easily use a number 4 or 5, Yes, I know this already. The reason this trick works is because the plane edge goes across both boards at once. As I said, my boards are for a benchtop. Together they are seven inches wide. They cannot be edge-jointed at the same time. That is why I'm asking this question about gaps. ---- Start of Message 15070 ---- From: David W. Thompson - Employee Communications Date: 1997-03-12 23:03:00 Subject: Re: FW: E-mail Virus Warning Pat shaped the electrons to say... > General rule of virii: if it executes, it can be infected (be it an > executable, a java applet, a macro, etc.). Hah - heathen. Java is inherently secure. Nothing bad can happen with a Java applet. Java solves all security and cross-platform problems, whatever they are. Java cures the heartbreak of psoriasis and will end world hunger. Everyone should convert everything to Java. Call now to place your orders; operators are standing by. Dave "Company Line" Thompson ---- Start of Message 15071 ---- From: James Foster Date: 1997-03-13 23:52:00 Subject: Re: DAMASCUS STEEL Dr Steven Thomas wrote:
>
> > While out scrounging around yesterday I came across and old
> > crosscut saw with a nice carved handle. The brand was
> > apparently WIZARD? and the blade had DAMASCUS STEEL etched
> > across the top of the logo with a bunch of other stuff I
> > couldn't make out. They wanted $8 for it - I didn't know
> > what it was so I left it there. If anyone knows anything
> > about these I like to hear from you.
>
> Jerry,
>
> I was recently reading a book on knife making that I borrowed from the
> library. I can't remember the title, author etc though. It featured an
> American guy who specialised in making knives from damascus steel.

Probably one of Jim Hrisoulas' books, like "The Complete Bladesmith"

> stunning. Somehow I doubt that the saw that you saw was of such steel,

Yeah, I don't think it would make much of a saw blade. Other posts
indicating that it might say "Damaskeen finish" seem more likely.

----------------------------------------------------------------
---- Start of Message 15072 ---- From: Ed Chambers Date: 1997-03-13 23:52:00 Subject: Re: Walter's book A, I ordered my copy of the hardcover version just today, coincidentally enough, and the nice lady on the other end of the line said it would be in my hands in a week. The hardcover is $40 The softcover is $30 The pocket guide is $10 Shipping to North America (and outlying U.S. states, including Hawaii, The Premiew Old Tool Hell of the Pacific Rim) is $5. The address I have is: c/o The Tool Merchant 208 Front St. P.O. Box 227 Mariettta, Ohio 45750 Telephone: (614) 373-9937 (Thanks to Jim Peden for his saved-and-salvaged info.) Ed ---- Start of Message 15073 ---- From: Don McConnell Date: 1997-03-14 00:17:00 Subject: Lumberman's Museum - website Greetings, This evening I ran across a website which seems appropriately galootish. It is the website of the Maine Lumberman's Museum in Patten, Maine. A few neat old pictures and some text. If you're interested, here is the url: http://www.mainerec.com/logger.html I don't recall this website having been mentioned previously on oldtools. Enjoy! Don McConnell Knox County, Ohio ---- Start of Message 15074 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-14 00:19:00 Subject: Re: galoot progress and a couple of questions At 01:10 PM 3/13/97 -0500, Sanford Moss wrote: >Dear Galoots, > I want to thank you guys for directing me toward the fulfilling path >of Get some soft foam weatherstripping and put in the grooves on the rails & stiles. It will take up a little of your expansion room, but it should cure the rattling problem Ron ---- Start of Message 15075 ---- From: Franklin Ferrier Date: 1997-03-14 00:19:00 Subject: What's a york(er) (Was Re: CABINET PITCH) [Snipped] >(Bruce trying to extricate himself from a difficult position) Actually in its original context it made sense to me. The old two finger salute could be interpreted as a 'Y' with an accompanying guttural sound ;-) Or perhaps this relates to that British of British cricketing terms 'a yorker' being a ball that pitches directly under the bat. (That seems a fitting explanation based simply on assonance alone.) I never really understood that or a host of other cricketing terms. If it's a skewed york pitch does that make it a 'googly'? 'googly' - an off-break ball bowled with leg-break action. Franklin ---- Start of Message 15076 ---- From: Matt Prusik Date: 1997-03-13 21:16:00 Subject: Re: Eric sloane books Andrew Barss wrote: I like Amazon, but be forewarned: they just maintain a list of books in print, they don't have a warehouse with books in them. You order a book, they call up the publisher and have it shipped. For books that have been recently discontinued, they will list the book in the database, and tell you later on that they can't get it (happened to me with Kingshott's book on making planes; ordered it in December, got a postcard in late January saying they couldn't get it). Andy: This mirrors my experience with t he same titles! FWIW another caveat about Amazon. If you order more than one title and one is out of print, it's rather difficult to have the shipment cancelled. I wanted two titles, Kingshott's book and another one. Kingshott's was unavailable, and before I had a chance to cancel the order, they shipped the remaining title; which was naturally in stock. Not saying anything "sinister" or unethical went on here. Just a word of warning. Matt ---- Start of Message 15077 ---- From: J. Gunterman Date: 1997-03-13 21:16:00 Subject: that gathering for wood in PA...... Before I was so _RUDELY_ interrupted by thepager displaying my Boss' # followed by "911" last Monday, I was typing a replu to the list concerning Pet's woodie sale.... Anyway, what I and the FU (*Family Unit) discussed was taking a long weekend vacation and driving down in the BubbaMobile. Now for those of you that want some wood but have no way of getting it back what I propose to MA/NH Galoots is this. If'n you wanna buy some wood from Pete I'll waul it back to your place of destination and even help you unload it. Now we get intot the good part "What's in it for ME" You guys split the gas charges in a fair manner and maybees tospps in a peice of wood, this way I pay for gas down and there and lodging/meals for my FU and enjoy a long weekend w/ them and other Galoots, don't pay for my gas back and maybee get some sweet wood to make something special out of to mark the passing of the event for SWMBO's. L8r, John ---- Start of Message 15078 ---- From: J. Gunterman Date: 1997-03-14 00:29:00 Subject: Re: that gathering for wood in PA...... I said: >Now for those of you that want some wood but have no way of getting it back >what I propose to MA/NH Galoots is this. >If'n you wanna buy some wood from Pete I'll waul it back to your place of >destination >and even help you unload it. Ohh Yeah, If anybody has a sturdy trailer It would greatly help increase the payload I can haul back Just tell me what ball size the hitch needs so I can buy one (good excuse to blow good $ on the new truck eh?) L8r, John ---- Start of Message 15079 ---- From: eric coyle Date: 1997-03-14 00:45:00 Subject: Re: CABINET PITCH At 05:11 PM 3/13/97 -0500, SBMarcus wrote: >> >~ unless it was from the lots of "yorks" the funny looking >near-vertical >> > ~ conformation received. >> >Now there's a term I haven't read before. Me neither - explanation >> please... > >Sorry, Richard, Jeff and all! > >Bad wordplay, probably the result of weather finally having come to Maine >after the mildest winter in decades. We call it cabin fever. > >How do you explain wordplay? Let's see, I was "inspired" to see in the >proper noun York a similarity to the mild expression of distaste "yuck", as >well as the homonym "yuck", which is a colloquialism for "laugh", and to >cap it off the word had an onomatopoeic quality that I'd rather not go >into. Of course, all that "inspiration" might only be appreciated by an ear >Brooklyn born and tuned , as mine was. > >Is there a back porch on this joint? Could someone please show me the way? > >Bruce > **************************************************************************** ***************** It's way, way back, almost totally constructed of reactionary wood.. AND Lewis Carroll is already there, expounding on the "humpty-dumpty" theory wherein you think of two (or presumably more) words and say them all at once.... Eric who periodicly loses half of his dilemma... ---- Start of Message 15080 ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1997-03-13 20:06:00 Subject: RE: ERIC SLOANE BOOKS Andrew explained Amazon.. >I like Amazon, but be forewarned: they just maintain a list of books in > print, they don't have a warehouse with books in them. ... > they will list the book in the database, and tell you later on that they > can't get it (happened to me with Kinshott's book on making planes; > ordered it in December, got a postcard in late January saying they > couldn't get it). I saw this remaindered in the UK (Selling cheap) recently, *if* I could get one/some, would anyone be interested - I'm on the tin bird tomorrow, so I could check it out. Richard Wilson COPY LIST: I4506552 IBMMAIL ARW's Compuserve Mailbox ---- Start of Message 15081 ---- From: Karl W. Sanger Date: 1997-03-14 01:15:00 Subject: Re: PATINA and the #2 PATINA'ed Galoots: The question came up as to how much the Stanley number 2 in an original box sold for at PATINA. First, I'd like to compliment the posts about the Potomac Antique Tools and Industries Association (PATINA) March 8 & 9 Tool Extravaganza. They have been right on target in terms of the posters reaction - what they were looking for at the sale. Remember, PATINA is a two day event, with Saturday having the most action (500+ buyers, 102 dealer tables and 37 tailgaters) and Sunday is for bidding (200 bid numbers and maybe 100 active bidders) with little tailgating because the people action was on Saturday. There were very high priced collectibles on both days, but PATINA is noted for its large numbers of mostly modestly priced users tools. The auction was no exception. We had a Stanley screwdriver sell for $210, a number 2 plane sell for 70 (fair condition) and the # 2 plane in an original (I didn't say it's) box sell for $700. I spent the most I ever have at the auction and I'm the cheapest guy on this list - that should tell you there were some bargins in the awfully long, 6 hour, 752 lot auction. Since a large number of the lots went to tool dealers, it should tell you that you could have attended the auction and bought for less than the dealers are going to charge you on FMM to buy it from them. ***************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * * * Email: sangerkw@m... * ***************************************** ---- Start of Message 15082 ---- From: Patrick White Date: 1997-03-14 01:18:00 Subject: Re: Lumberman's Museum - website On a related note, since I haven't seen it mentioned on this list, someplace that might be worthwhile visiting if any of you ever make it out here to the Portland, Oregon area, is the old logging equipment collection at Camp 18.. it's on state Hwy 26 about 20 (18 exactly?) miles from the coast. Camp 18 is _now_ a restaurant (pretty decent food last time I ate there) and gift shop, but it _used_ to be (more or less) the site of a lumber camp back when they were cutting down old growth timbers (6+ ft. diameter at base). The equipment is scaled appropriatly, making for largish stuff like 6 ft. pullies, etc. Alas, there's very little information about the equipment itself, but it is fun to look at. Also along the way (about a mile or two from the coast) is the largest Sitka Spruce tree. Worth a visit if you get out this way as it seems to be dying (more branches and general tree distress every time I see it, but I do only have a few years worth of observational history). A good visit if you like that "I feel like an ant" feeling. -- later, Pat White (work: patbob@s..., (503) 578-3463, fax: (503) 578-5797) Aloha, Oregon: USDA zone 8, Sunset zone 6 (or so they say) ---- Start of Message 15083 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-14 01:22:00 Subject: Re: unusual indicator Dave: It's an old tool, it must be OK to discuss >It was mfd. by the >Hamilton Watch Co. and has a 4" dia. bezel. I knew that Hamilton Watch Co. made >fine watches, but was not aware that they made precision tools. Yes, they gave it a try. The technology converted easily I'd suppose. They made a line of good quality dial indicators during the late 60's. Part of an attempt to stay alive. The price was out of line. Gene ---- Start of Message 15084 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-14 01:23:00 Subject: Re: New: Simpson Machine Tool Co. Karl writing about the Simpson #1 Odd Jobs: >Who will not spend $50 on an SMTC #1 in this life. > I just have to add to this. I went to a lot of work to find all the parts of an original in the first version. I know the supposed market value, thanks to help from the porch. But this thing is a gadget for collectors to display. I'd never try to use it for _anything_. So, if it's a collector's display item, why buy a new repro? Nice try for Simpson, but why not produce something useful like Hock, L-N, IT, JG, etc? Gene ---- Start of Message 15085 ---- From: SBMarcus Date: 1997-03-14 00:45:00 Subject: Re: What's a york(er) (Was Re: CABINET PITCH) ---------- > From: Franklin Ferrier franklin@h... > To: oldtools@l... > Subject: What's a york(er) (Was Re: CABINET PITCH) > Date: Thursday, March 13, 1997 6:51 PM > > [Snipped] > >(Bruce trying to extricate himself from a difficult position) > > Actually in its original context it made sense to me. The old two finger > salute could be interpreted as a 'Y' with an accompanying guttural sound > ;-) > > Or perhaps this relates to that British of British cricketing terms 'a > yorker' being a ball that pitches directly under the bat. (That seems a > fitting explanation based simply on assonance alone.) I never really > understood that or a host of other cricketing terms. > > If it's a skewed york pitch does that make it a 'googly'? 'googly' - an > off-break ball bowled with leg-break action. > > Franklin OK! That's much better. Forget what I wrote guys. Hereafter refer to Franklin for explanation of all my awful puns and wordplays. Bruce (who was wondering why the hole was getting deeper and deeper as he was trying to dig himself out). ---- Start of Message 15086 ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1997-03-13 18:45:00 Subject: Re: Disston in business (was: Miller Falls in Business?) ** Reply to note from ed.bell@c... Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:16:00 -0500 > > Are you sure about this? I certainly still see them in the hardware > store. Ed, Considering how few handtoolers there are and the reputation of the current Disstons, they are probably working off stock. You will still see them 10 years from now unless we can trick the YBs into thinking they are valuable. ernie The Arizona tool sink, IT #22 ---- Start of Message 15087 ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1997-03-13 18:45:00 Subject: Re: Type study for Stanley 45's Addressed to: georgew@p... oldtools@l... ** Reply to note from georgew@p... Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:52:43 -0600 > > Galoots, > I'm trying to date a 45 that I am resurrecting from the dead. In the dark > reaches of my memory (and you don't want to pursue this any further) I seem to > recall discussion of a 45 type study but I can't seem to find it. Does anyone > know where I can locate this study? > Thanks George > The easiest place to find it is in John Walter's new book. A good read under any circumstances. ernie The Arizona tool sink, IT #22 ---- Start of Message 15088 ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1997-03-13 18:45:00 Subject: Handtool play GGs, Today I had a little job to do. I was dadoing one chunk of 2x4 into another to make a resawing jig. I hate cutting dadoes on the TS and the router is a PITA for a job that small. Hey, I got handtools, let's attack. Marked out the dado and set up a batten on the 2x4. I sawed down the edge of the batten to give a nice edge. Then I grabbed the #39 1/2 and did one side of the dado. Move the batten to the other side of the dado and do it again with the #39 1/2. Next chisel out the middle and then grab the #71 to refine the whole thing. Best dado I ever made and it took less time to do than it took to write about it. Unless of course you count the time it took to find a batten and the clamp. ernie The Arizona tool sink, IT #22 ---- Start of Message 15089 ---- From: Don Bowen Date: 1997-03-14 02:20:00 Subject: Re: Lumberman's Museum - website At 05:18 PM 3/13/97 -0800, Patrick White wrote: > > On a related note, since I haven't seen it mentioned on this list, >someplace that might be worthwhile visiting if any of you ever make it out >here to the Portland, Oregon area, is the old logging equipment collection >at Camp 18.. it's on state Hwy 26 about 20 (18 exactly?) miles from the coast. And also in Oregon just a few miles north of Klamath Falls is Colliers museum. They have a neat collection of old logging tools. These are not piles of Abe Lincoln's axe but big wheels, track building machines, etc. Well worth the visit. Exhibits are well labeled and most are outdoors. Nice little campground and stream nearby. We were there about two years ago and may stop by this summer. Don Bowen Senior Software Engineer Valley Center, CA Virtual Integrators donb@c... Don.bowen@i... http://www.users.cts.com/crash/d/donb http://www.integrators.com/bowens ---- Start of Message 15090 ---- From: Kenneth Stagg Date: 1997-03-14 02:26:00 Subject: Yet another test Just tried setting my mailer to 8 bit instead of mime to see if I can finally post to the group again. -Ken ---- Start of Message 15091 ---- From: Brian Rice Date: 1997-03-14 02:48:00 Subject: Bio - Brian Rice GGs, After many delays, (well, OK, procrastination, actually) it's about time I get my bio to the porch. I'm 43, divorced, no kids and live in Ann Arbor, MI. My interest in wood butchering got started a while when I bought a small condo and needed a workbench for the basement. The resultant "bench" (a couple of slabs of construction grade plywood topped off with masonite) is more useful for storing stuff than for serious woodworking. But for now, it'll have to do. I'm very much the newbie, but have been picking up some hand tools where I can, mostly from the MofA. I've taken a few classes at local Woodcraft store, mostly stuff like sharpening, handtool joinery, etc., but certainly need much more practice. By day, I work as a technical support rep at StorageTek Corp; or, as I like to tell people, I'm "one of those people you can never get a hold of." My interest in handtool woodworking was motivated by a) the cost of p*w*r tools, b) the noise they generate might tick off the neighbors in the adjoining condo, and c) fear; I like my digits just where they are, thank your. My goals are to get to the point where I can build tables, bookcases, etc., that fit my needs better than what I can buy. -brian (13 lines to say, "can I have a seat on the step? Huh, can I?") -- Brian E. Rice Ann Arbor, MI (the home of Otis Spann Memorial Field) -- Brian E. Rice Ann Arbor, MI (the home of Otis Spann Memorial Field) ---- Start of Message 15092 ---- From: Tim Rutherford Date: 1997-03-13 21:01:00 Subject: Type study for Stanley 45s George wrote: >I'm trying to date a 45 that I am resurrecting from the dead. In the dark=20 >reaches of my memory (and you don't want to pursue this any further) I seem= > to=20 >recall discussion of a 45 type study but I can't seem to find it. There's one in Walter's book I use, although I'd be interested in a more definitive study with more illustrations. Tim ---- Start of Message 15093 ---- From: Norman Witt Date: 1997-03-14 03:19:00 Subject: Re: OLDTOOLS digest 1271 > > Subject: Re: Glue and filling edge gaps Andy Wilkins wrote: [snipped] > I suspect the 1/32" gap will clamp nicely when it is glued. But how > much gap can exist before I need to consider a gap-filling glue? When I built my bench top, I had gaps as wide as 1/16", but most of the joints were tighter. 1/8" seems to wide. For reference, my bench top was made of 3-1/2" douglas fir, which is relatively easy to plane. I also reinforced the top with 3 pieces of 3/4" threaded rod, and was not particularly concerned about the glue joints not holding. What type of wood are you using? > I can handplane the joints perfect, at the risk of some sore knees > (I don't have a bench yet--this *is* my benchtop) and a lot of > hard work. I built the base of my bench first, and rested the pieces for the top on the base to work on them. (Actually, the unworked 4x12s WERE the bench top for about 6 months, until I got around to finishing the top.) Personally, I would go to great lengths to work on the stock at a reasonable height; resting the stock across sawhorses, with one end braced against a wall, might be a workable expedient. If the joints need to have more than 1/8" taken off, you might try to come up with a 2nd plane with a radiused blade, to take care of the major stock removal; a scrub plane would be perfect for this application. When I built my bench top, one of the 4x12s was bowed 1/2" in each direction; it took about 4 hours to make a single glue joint, and another 6 to flatten the top, with an untuned modern Stanley #5. A scrub plane would have easily cut the work in half. Hope this helps, Norm W. ---- Start of Message 15094 ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1997-03-14 06:26:00 Subject: Re: Millers Falls in buisness? I dug out my Silvo Hardware catalog, which I reported earlier had some "real" looking Miller's Falls tools. The catalog is 4 years old, so no idea what the current story is, but here's the contact info if you're interested: Silvo Hardware 3201 Tollview Drive Rolling Meadows, IL 60008 1-800-331-1261 Some sample items: Stanley dee-luxe Mitre box, 5x28" saw: $599 Stanley mitre machine: $699 Miller's Falls no. 1124 mitre box: $399 Millers Falls Ratchet brace: $99 " " ratchet corner brace: 121 MF breast drill: $135 "" nickeled push drill: $61 etc. -- Andrew ---- Start of Message 15095 ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1997-03-14 05:22:00 Subject: Re: BIO-Aaron Ionta New born galoot Aaron Ionta exposes his chest (toolchest) >1 Baily #4 that I need to date yet >1 Record Technical Plane - >1 new #5 Stanley ( a gift) Hey, this here galoot has a *technical* plane - Now you'll have to get a shooting board and donkeys ear made.... Welcome to the porch Richard Wilson (How's that extension going? No, *stop* digging out a basement workshop and jest keep laying the decking.) :-) ---- Start of Message 15096 ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1997-03-14 06:03:00 Subject: Re: Damascus Steel Steven Thomas responded to Jerry.. >> While out scrounging around yesterday I came across and old >> crosscut saw ..edit.. >>and the blade had DAMASCUS STEEL etched across the top of the logo .. cut away.. >I was recently reading a book on knife making .. ..sliced out.. >making knives from damascus steel. In this context it involved laminating > 2 different steels together by hand blacksmith style. These were then > folded/cut and rewelded over and over so that each time the chunk of > steel was hammered out the laminations became thinner and thinner, and > increased in number 2 fold each time. The result was a blade that had a >sort of wood grained pattern which resulted from the multiple laminations >of the 2 slightly different coloured steels. In this form damascus steel > is highly prized (at least for knives) as it is hard to make, is very > beautiful and holds an excellent edge (apparently). ... rest cut away.. I'm no knifemaker, but I believe that 'damascening' (sp) took its rise in the days of the crusades, when swords were made (in Damascus, where else) which were inlaid in precious metal. A line design was chiselled out, and the resulting channels had gold wire beaten into them to create a gold inlay, finally being polished. This was a skilled task - handling very fine steel cutting chisels etc, where today we would engrave, or even etch such a design. (for 'skilled' read 'expensive imported' ! ) I further believe that the term 'damascus' in modern day usage, per this thread, was hijacked from the original technique to indicate metal which gives the appearance of damascus work. A most noticeable example being the production of knife blades which incorporate old motorcycle chain. Imagine a moment the pattern resulting from taking a chain and forging it into a blade. It would look simialr to the original inlay results. and as 'Damascus' is an adjective applied to quality, expensive blades, why not purloin it. I know I would, if I could make such a thing. Thinks.... John G. must have old chain..... Richard Wilson Anyway, it sounds a whole lot more marketable than 'old bike chain' Currently on assignment at SKF Dataservice, Goteborg, Sweden Personal e-mail to ARWilson@c... will always eventually find me. Replies to seskfur5@i... go to SKF Sweden only. ---- Start of Message 15097 ---- From: Richard Wilson Date: 1997-03-14 06:28:00 Subject: GLUE AND FILLING EDGE GAPS John asked about glueing up giant timber for a benchtop.. >I need to glue five 3.5" x 5.5" x 6' boards for a benchtop. The first > to-be-done lamination has a max gap of 1/32" before clamping. The > second TBD lamination has a max gap of 1/8", naturally at one end of the > boards. and has received much good advice. I'm chipping in the 2 denarii to suggest that it would be good practice to aim at producing a well fitting joint, use a gap filling glue, certainly - and a hide glue would fill 1/32, but avoid the temptation to 'cramp up' a bad joint if it involves trying to distort the timber to mate. Especially on a 3 1/2 by 5 1/2, it would be unrealistic to expect the timbers to bend to accomodate 1/8 without leaving considerable residual stress in the joint. Given that it's a bench top, for which visual appeal is not mandatory, I would be happy with a 1/16. If I incorporated dowels, or a spline (Which I would) then I *might* even leave a 1/8, but I don't think so - I'd want to improve on that a tad more. For the upcoming 1/4 crevass .. 1) Build your first two into a stabel bench - with vise ? so you can attack the monster in comfort. 2) Use the excuse to make or buy a scrub plane, or set your existing plane up for a wide throat, rank setting, and hog off the worst of it. Even on a large timber, if you work a small portion at a time by commencing at the trailing end, and planing at 45 degrees to the length of the board, you can remove a 1/4 quickly. You are *not* wanting to take full length shavings for this operation. Just mark out the board, and have at it. Stopping close enough to clean up with finer settings and full length shavings. No need for electric - too noisy, too messy, too prone to eat past the line, nowhere near as satisfying. Sorry to preach, you may well already know all this.... Have fun ! Richard Wilson Currently on assignment at SKF Dataservice, Goteborg, Sweden Personal e-mail to ARWilson@c... will always eventually find me. Replies to seskfur5@i... go to SKF Sweden only. ---- Start of Message 15098 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1997-03-14 11:50:00 Subject: Re: Millers Falls in buisness? Andrew provides prices for new handtools... There seems to be an enormous gap between sellers of modern stuff and sellers of old stuff. Throw in the fact that old stuff is usually better and I wonder how the two can co-exist. For instance, here are some comparative prices for old stuff that I find around here ($CDN) : >Some sample items: > >Stanley dee-luxe Mitre box, 5x28" saw: $599 I don't see these often, but I've seen two and both times 50$ was the asking price. I know of a big Stanley picture frame miter box (all cast iron with similarly huge saw) and again 50$ is the asking price, and it's been sitting in the same shop for at least a year. >Miller's Falls no. 1124 mitre box: $399 May have seen one the other day. It was MF but not sure about the 1124. It didn't have the proper saw, but the guy was asking 20$. >Millers Falls Ratchet brace: $99 Braces go for under 10$ any age, condition, maker. >" " ratchet corner brace: 121 I know of a nice Stanley for 45$ in a shop that isn't particularly cheap. >MF breast drill: $135 10$ is usually tops for breast drills. >"" nickeled push drill: $61 5-10$, usually 5$. Then there are the Paragon 45 clones. Why on earth would anyone pay 550$US for a chromed POS when you can have a practically mint old one for 200$US ? (Around here they go for about 175$CDN complete). But then most people I know wouldn't be caught dead in a flea market...) Paul P Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 15099 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-14 12:20:00 Subject: Re: New: Simpson Machine Tool Co. For Dr. Hunk (hi Dave) and other fans of new old tools who may have missed the original announcement, let me point out the EN Guide to New Old Tools; go to http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~alf/en/ and click on "tools", then "new old". ---- Start of Message 15100 ---- From: J. & L. Young Date: 1997-03-14 12:21:00 Subject: Re: L.S.Starrett Co. - copyright? David R. Hunkins (by way of David R. Hunkins ) wrote: > But the reason for the post is this: there was talk recently about Patent, > Patent App'l For, Patent Pending, etc. Here's a new one. I picked up a > Starrett No. 185 "Time Saver" Drill & Wire Gauge (one of those plates with > holes and info so you choose the right drill for the job). The curious > thing to me is that at the bottom, they stamped "Copyright 1898". I guess > I'm missing something here, but what info on here could have been > copyrighted? There is a "table" of sorts with headings of "size of tap", > "tap drill", and "body drill" with the appropriate numbers in the columns > ... what is unique in this information that Starrett claimed as copyrighted > material? Were they the first to calculate and publish this information, or > did they calculate the decimal equivalent of 1-60 number drills and claim > to be the first? Were they first to publish that you needed to use a No. 48 > drill for tap and No. 42 drill for body of a 2 x 56 machine screw? Anybody > enlighten me on this one? > Hi David! Believe it or not, this actually makes sense. It sounds like it was the compilation of information, and maybe the arrangement of holes, in which the copyright was claimed. Unlike a patent, to be copyrightable, the subject matter does not have to be new, useful and non-obvious to one skilled in the art. Basically, to copyrightable, it just has to be "fixed in a tangible medium" (and stamped on steel is most certainly that) and be am original work. (BTW, To be "original," it doesn't mean that you have had to start from a blank piece of paper, you can start from another's work as a basis, but then what you have is a "derivative" work and you may not be able to make any effective use of what you have done. Hope that was not too dull for all of us clog-dancing neanderthals. Best to all, John Young Falls Church VA ---- Start of Message 15101 ---- From: Keith Mealy Date: 1997-03-14 12:56:00 Subject: MF - now that we've found it, what do we do with it? Rumors of the Millers Falls Tool company in Cincinnati have been confirmed by a quick check in the phone book. As it turns out, it's less than 10 miles from my back door. Has anyone made a close encounter of the third kind (Phone call)? If so, are they still doing the hand-tool thing? What is it now that inquiring galoots want to know? Keith Mealy kmealy@c... Cincinnati, OH http://www.cincom.com "This message should not be construed as an official representation of Cincom Systems." ---- Start of Message 15102 ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1997-03-14 08:18:00 Subject: Re: MF - now that we've found it, what do we do with it? > Rumors of the Millers Falls Tool company in Cincinnati have > been confirmed by a quick check in the phone book. As it turns > out, it's less than 10 miles from my back door. > What is it now that inquiring galoots want to know? I think the only prudent thing to do is to take control of the site until they agree to restore this sacred shrine to it's original state. This will pave the way for a march on Disston and, finally, the grand daddy of them all, the Stanley Works. Ed Bell ed.bell@c... Cincinnati Bell Information Systems Opinions expressed are my own and do not neccessarily reflect those of my employer. ---- Start of Message 15103 ---- From: Roger Birkhead Date: 1997-03-14 13:24:00 Subject: #45/#55 Blades question I have a #55 which was given to me (gloat) nearly complete except for about 11 blades, and the right hand fence. After finally finding a list of blades I started cataloging and realized most of the blades I do have do not have the numbers stamped on them. Now I have have also been given a #45 and it's blades are unumbered as well. So I start thinking....maybe the previous owner/owners grabbed #45 blades to complete thier set. So I was wondering whetherThis is the case or were #55 blades unumbered for a while? To confuse matters even more, two of the blades (47 and 57) have Pat. Feb 23 1886 stamped in them. Would these have come with a #55 or from a #45 (the 45 I have is missing these blades as well). One last question...I found two blades which are for making a small tounge and groove (7/16, total width of blades). I do not see it listed in the standard cutters nor the special cutters. It looks factory made/ground, but could it have been a custom job? Thanks for the help, Roger Birkhead ---- Start of Message 15104 ---- From: Todd Kissam Date: 1997-03-14 13:24:00 Subject: Re: MF - now that we've found it, what do we do with it? At 07:56 AM 3/14/97 -0500, you wrote: >Rumors of the Millers Falls Tool company in Cincinnati have >been confirmed by a quick check in the phone book. As it turns >out, it's less than 10 miles from my back door. Has anyone made >a close encounter of the third kind (Phone call)? If so, are they >still doing the hand-tool thing? > >Keith Mealy kmealy@c... >Cincinnati, OH http://www.cincom.com > Let me get this right. Keith here (who from his URL seems to work for a communcations company) is 10 miles from Miller Falls, has a phone book in his hand and then uses e-mail to ask 600 galoots if they have made a phone call. ;^) Todd (Well it is friday after all.) ---- Start of Message 15105 ---- From: Webber, Bill Date: 1997-03-14 08:36:00 Subject: Fred's Rules Executive summary: - This introduces Fred, the local tool guy. - Negotiating, how I did this one. - Gloat, admiration and some sorrow. Busy people press --> | Delete | I first met Fred at the Columbia Flea Market. Antique and junk dealers set up on Sundays, in the warmer months, in the parking garage at the mall. Its pretty unusual to see a whole table full of tools at a flea market around here, much less a table full of good ones. We chatted a bit and I think I got a Dunlap #3-size plane from him. $30, I think, 5 - 6 years ago. I also got a nice butt gage from him. (every Galoot should have a butt gage!) Sometime later we were in an antique store in Ellicott City and there was another table full of tools. I remarked to my wife, "looks like the kind of stuff Fred had". That's how we met his wife, Ruth. As a pair, they are both retired. She does furniture and bric-a-brac stuff; he does the tools. Ruth gave up the lease on the store and Fred only occasionally sets up at the flea market, now. Fred took to renting space in the various antique malls in Ellicott City. So, for years now its been "Fred's not here anymore, wonder what happened to him" and "This looks like Fred's stuff over here". Fred is an ex techno geek. He worked for Westinghouse doing QA work, ran an engineering dept. for a PC board manufacturer, did some remodeling work and now spends his time finding and cleaning up old tools. He says he's having fun, busier than he's ever been. That's a GOOD thing! Next to the tail gaters at the PATINA meets, Fred is probably the best source I know of around here for user tools. He always has a good selection of 3, 4, and 5-size planes. He sells most everything; any tool he finds. He knows the collectable stuff but doesn't get a lot of it. He just cleans up good user tools, adds a modest percentage to his cost and moves 'em along. He's not a wire brush guy, either. Anyway back to the rules. Its really rare to see any kind of rule in decent condition at places other than the tool shows. And, at the tool shows, I'm more interested in almost any other tool. The point is I'm don't know much about these things, only that the good ones are pretty, and... pretty pricey. Several years ago, in an optimistic mood, I had written down all the Stanley rule numbers and beside each I had written Walter's maximum price. I then photo reduced the entire list to the size of a credit card and put it in my wallet. I've whipped out the little list on occasion and had people ask what it is. I just tell 'em it's a crib sheet and let 'em look at it. They can't tell much from the columns of numbers... those that can see it! Anyway, back in Ellicott City, I'm standing in front of a locked case and I see a #5-size plane with six dates explained on the price tag, a #48 tongue and groove plane (with HUGE brass screws) and these ivory rules. Five of them! The first rule I see is a Stanley #86 1/2. Scary, but it looks near perfect! Its got sharp edges, no sign of wear, good black on white, no wear on the printing. I pointed them out to SWMBO who gives me... THE LOOK. No, not the "Your in trouble look", my bride has a look of passive resignation that says "just don't take too long". (I found her later seated around the corner waiting patiently, reading the mall flyer.) My little list says Walter thinks a really good 86 1/2 is worth $700, tops. Fred's ticket says $675. Well, Fred likes ol' tools and he's no dummy! But I'm still thinkin' that's not a bad starting point given what I can probably negotiate away and what I believe is a general increase in going prices over Walter's old book. I call the pimply-faced attendant over. I know he's gotta look for the keys, that'll take a while. The rule in back is a Stanley #89. Full bound, double arch joint, what a beauty! The price tag says $525, my little list says $600. Gee, getting better! The kid comes back with the keys and opens the case. I pick up the 86 *1/2 and slowly open it. Hey, it's an architect's rule. I like those. I have a nice #53 1/2, in boxwood. The kid is swaying back and forth, impatiently. I ask "you have a standard cash discount, right?" "yeah", he says, " ten percent for cash and seven percent on plastic. I'm not lookin' at the rule now, I'm concentrating on the process. "Think you can do any better" I ask. He says "Well, I can call the dealer and see what he says". I said "OK" but the kid just stands there. I guess he wants to lock the case back up before he makes the call. He locks the case and goes back to the counter. I don't know where I'm going with this, if anywhere, but I write down the other prices. Two Stanley #38s and a Stearns #93. The #38s are $150 each and the #93 is $250. The kid comes back and says he's left a message for the seller, "he usually calls right back", he says. "Let me see the other ones". He opens the case again. The #38s show some wear, with slightly rounded edges, but not bad, no major damage. All the pins are there. The #93 is a Stephens, not Stearns. The graduations are very legible but the brand name is very faint. All the pins are missing, and worse, one is broken off flush with the german silver hinge. The kid closes the case and I tell him we'll look over the rest of the mall and come back. We make the circuit and come back to the desk. The kid tells me the owner hasn't called back. I tell him I have to go and can I have the dealers phone number (I've already got his card from his display in the back of the mall). I get the dealer's phone number and we leave. At home I give Fred a call. I reintroduce myself. He knows me by sight but he doesn't know my name. I tell him I'm interested in the rules and would like to know what kind of deal he is willing to make. I tell him I know there is a standard 10 percent cash discount and can he do any better. What if I buy 'em all? I tell him I gotta eat dinner and do some research. He can think about it and call me back. I start going through my catalogs, auction results, and other stuff. After dinner Fred calls back. He says he can do 15%. 20% on all of them. Then he says, "I may be able to do a little better". I say, impatiently " What's the bottom line?" He says "$1300 for all five". I say "that's it?" He says "Yup." I told him I'd call him back. It's six in the evening. I figure I have about three hours to go through all the catalogues and price lists I have. My Walters books is the old one, '91, '92 version. I set out to find out what prices on Ivory Stanley rules have done recently in the FTJ, PATINA, Bud Brown, and FMM . I've also got some of Walter's old magazines. I don't find much that relates to the specific Stanley rule numbers that Fred is selling. However, it seems like all the rules, in any publication, that have any description higher than 'junker' have been selling for prices 10 to 40% higher than the price in the old Walters price guide I have. I figure, with unbridled optimism, these rules could go for as much as $2600. It's now nine o'clock. I call Fred back and tell him I'm leaning towards taking all five but I need to look at them again. He says he priced 'em out of the Stanley price guide, and he made adjustments for the condition. I ask him if he means Walter's price guide. He says, "No, the Stanley Guide". I didn't pursue it. It's probably Walter's book and I don't need to be telling him about the new one. Can he sell 'em to me 'privately' to avoid the sales tax? Anyway to shorten this up. I'm sitting here now with 5 really spiffy ivory rules in my hand. While they are really pretty, I have this horrible picture in my mind of elephants lined up at this factory entrance and carcasses lying at the other end. How could a production product have been based on such a fragile, finite, (and practically) non-renewable resource? The pile of carcasses is nearly is big as the one at the piano factory down the street! The 86 1/2 and the 89 are really nice rules! The others are good, too. I'm not going to throw them out because I (we) generally view some of the things our forefathers did as controversial, even shortsighted. I'm fascinated by the ideas, attitudes, and expectations of our parents. Next time someone gets too much of "the good ol' days" theme worked into their posts I'll offer some of the excepts from the war years magazines I have. These are the only tools I own that have ever raised this particular question, or the emotions that go with it. ...Gee, its late and I'm getting' weepy! Next, IVORY RULES, CARE and FEEDING, Q&A Regards, Bill W. P.S. I'll buy Walter's new price guide when someone can put it in my hand, but in the mean time, I'd be interested to know where the new price guide puts the high end prices on these puppies. Anyone got it yet? ---- Start of Message 15106 ---- From: Mack McKinney Date: 1997-03-14 08:36:00 Subject: Re: DAMASCUS STEEL Steven.Thomas@m...,Internet writes: (Accurate account of manufaturing process snipped) >In this form damascus steel is highly >prized (at least for knives) as it is hard to make, is very beautiful >and holds an excellent edge (apparently). I will testify to this, as I have seen these things. An interesting FWIW, this process was used to manufacture shotgun barrels in the previous century. A ribbon of steel were wound around a mandrel and welded. These things show up at gun shows alot as double-barreled shotguns sporting hammers (for a shotgunner, the *snick-snick* of those hammers going back is as epiphanal as the *swish* of a plane making mega-hang-time thin shavings). Incidentally, these puppies were made for use with black powder, and modern propellents of the smokeless variety will serve to abruptly de-demascene the barrels, with unhappy results. A lot of guys buy these things and put them over their mantels, I suppose so they can pose for the family Christmas card photo with their smoking jackets and pipes... Mack, who is interested in old guns and other expensive hobbies too... -- Mack McKinney Virtual Library Research and Design B.L. Fisher Library - Asbury Theological Seminary 606.858.2355 ---- Start of Message 15107 ---- From: Paul F Gillespie Date: 1997-03-14 14:00:00 Subject: Re[2]: "Disston Gloat"- OLDTOOLS digest 1258 Erv Shaffer writes: Disston & Sons D-8's were introduced in 1876 for the U.S. Cenntenial. The patent year is 1874. As one can soon surmise from the number about, it was produced in quantity and a very good handsaw. It became a very desireable saw for carpenters soon after introduced. Key characteristics were the "skew back" (Disston invention) and an enlarged handle opening I inquire: A while ago we had a discussion on the benefits of the skew back design. But, as I recall, there was no definite conclusion to this. As the list has seen a sizable growth since this was discussed, I'd like to re-ask the question. What's the advantage to a saw having a skewed back? Does anyone know what Disston claimed as the advantage? I don't own any skew backs, but if there's some increase in performance I may be persuaded to buy a few. Thanks in advance. Paul Gillespie who's a few days behind in his list reading ---- Start of Message 15108 ---- From: David Hegedusich Date: 1997-03-14 14:24:00 Subject: Re: Bio - Brian Rice In his bio, Brian writes: > I've taken a few classes at local Woodcraft store, mostly stuff like > sharpening, handtool joinery, etc., but certainly need much more > practice. Lucky you! At the Woodcraft store here in San Antonio, all they seem to offer is classes on puckey ducks and turning pens. And they look at me funny whenever I ask about handtools. dh -- ---- Start of Message 15109 ---- From: Carl Muhlhausen Date: 1997-03-14 14:24:00 Subject: Re: Red Ivory? This is the response from my chemist brother-in-law. Some of it confirms what a previous response said. I'd guess this is something you'd want to do outdoors, in a pan you care nothing about. Dilute sulfuric is probably not much of a health resk. It would yield a small amount of sulphur trioxide. The explosive properties of a battery comes from the hydrogen produced during electrolysis associated with charging. -- This has nothing to do with oldtools, but what the h...., Back in my undergraduate days, I was the assistant instructor in Organic Chem lab. It was lots of excitement. One day I go in and the grad student who was the main instructor is sporting a a truly ugly round burn spot in the middle of his forehead. I asked him "Holy S**T, what happened?" It seems the students were doing an experiment that involved heating the chemicals in boiling concentrated sulfuric acid. THe precautions involved having a long open tube coming out of the reaction vessel as a relief if the boiling got too vigorous. Also you were supposed to add a few marble chips to prevent the solution from going over the boiling point (I forget the technical term, superheated ?). Sulfuric acid was very prone to this. THe instructor had one problem student who seemed to think organic cemistry was a conspiracy against her. He wandered over to her bench and saw her fiercely heating the acid, but it wasn't boiling. She complained to him and he looked at what was going on, then gave the vessel a little tap. At this, the entire contents of the vessel shot out of the escape tube, and hit the ceiling. The grad student instinctively looked up and the acid on it's way down landed plop on his forehead. He was wearing safety glasses (remember there's nothing more important that these, popkins) As I recall depending on its concentration sulfuric acid can act as an acid, a dehydrating agent, and a oxidation agent. I once wanted to reconstruct the skeleton of a quail my father had shot for a science fair. The teacher told me to clean the bones in sulfuric acid. I asked him what concentration and he said "About 50%". I ended up with something that looked like milk of magnesia. So I would say offhand that sulfuric acid and oldtools shouldn't be mixed unless one really knows what you're doing. Sorry for the ramble, I'll be quiet now. Just pass the jug first. Carl ---- Start of Message 15110 ---- From: Webber, Bill on Fri, Mar 14, 1997 8:36 AM Date: 1997-03-14 14:38:00 Subject: Fred's Rules ________________________________________________________________________ _______ _ From: Blakley Bill on Thu, Mar 13, 1997 9:01 PM Subject: RE: Fred's Rules To: oldtools@l... Bill, Prices are #86 1/2 400-800, #89 400-800 Type 2 500-1000 Type 1 1000-2000, #38 150-350, Type 2 200-450, Type 1 750-1500, Metric 400-800. Sounds like you got a good deal. I have learned not to use the prices as a strict guide though. If the guide says something is worth $400 but I don't like it well enough to give $400 it is not worth $400 to me. However I do like ivory rules. ________________________________________________________________________ _______ _ From: Webber, Bill on Fri, Mar 14, 1997 8:36 AM Subject: Fred's Rules To: Galoots Executive summary: - This introduces Fred, the local tool guy. - Negotiating, how I did this one. - Gloat, admiration and some sorrow. Busy people press --> | Delete | I first met Fred at the Columbia Flea Market. Antique and junk dealers set up on Sundays, in the warmer months, in the parking garage at the mall. Its pretty unusual to see a whole table full of tools at a flea market around here, much less a table full of good ones. We chatted a bit and I think I got a Dunlap #3-size plane from him. $30, I think, 5 - 6 years ago. I also got a nice butt gage from him. (every Galoot should have a butt gage!) Sometime later we were in an antique store in Ellicott City and there was another table full of tools. I remarked to my wife, "looks like the kind of stuff Fred had". That's how we met his wife, Ruth. As a pair, they are both retired. She does furniture and bric-a-brac stuff; he does the tools. Ruth gave up the lease on the store and Fred only occasionally sets up at the flea market, now. Fred took to renting space in the various antique malls in Ellicott City. So, for years now its been "Fred's not here anymore, wonder what happened to him" and "This looks like Fred's stuff over here". Fred is an ex techno geek. He worked for Westinghouse doing QA work, ran an engineering dept. for a PC board manufacturer, did some remodeling work and now spends his time finding and cleaning up old tools. He says he's having fun, busier than he's ever been. That's a GOOD thing! Next to the tail gaters at the PATINA meets, Fred is probably the best source I know of around here for user tools. He always has a good selection of 3, 4, and 5-size planes. He sells most everything; any tool he finds. He knows the collectable stuff but doesn't get a lot of it. He just cleans up good user tools, adds a modest percentage to his cost and moves 'em along. He's not a wire brush guy, either. Anyway back to the rules. Its really rare to see any kind of rule in decent condition at places other than the tool shows. And, at the tool shows, I'm more interested in almost any other tool. The point is I'm don't know much about these things, only that the good ones are pretty, and... pretty pricey. Several years ago, in an optimistic mood, I had written down all the Stanley rule numbers and beside each I had written Walter's maximum price. I then photo reduced the entire list to the size of a credit card and put it in my wallet. I've whipped out the little list on occasion and had people ask what it is. I just tell 'em it's a crib sheet and let 'em look at it. They can't tell much from the columns of numbers... those that can see it! Anyway, back in Ellicott City, I'm standing in front of a locked case and I see a #5-size plane with six dates explained on the price tag, a #48 tongue and groove plane (with HUGE brass screws) and these ivory rules. Five of them! The first rule I see is a Stanley #86 1/2. Scary, but it looks near perfect! Its got sharp edges, no sign of wear, good black on white, no wear on the printing. I pointed them out to SWMBO who gives me... THE LOOK. No, not the "Your in trouble look", my bride has a look of passive resignation that says "just don't take too long". (I found her later seated around the corner waiting patiently, reading the mall flyer.) My little list says Walter thinks a really good 86 1/2 is worth $700, tops. Fred's ticket says $675. Well, Fred likes ol' tools and he's no dummy! But I'm still thinkin' that's not a bad starting point given what I can probably negotiate away and what I believe is a general increase in going prices over Walter's old book. I call the pimply-faced attendant over. I know he's gotta look for the keys, that'll take a while. The rule in back is a Stanley #89. Full bound, double arch joint, what a beauty! The price tag says $525, my little list says $600. Gee, getting better! The kid comes back with the keys and opens the case. I pick up the 86 *1/2 and slowly open it. Hey, it's an architect's rule. I like those. I have a nice #53 1/2, in boxwood. The kid is swaying back and forth, impatiently. I ask "you have a standard cash discount, right?" "yeah", he says, " ten percent for cash and seven percent on plastic. I'm not lookin' at the rule now, I'm concentrating on the process. "Think you can do any better" I ask. He says "Well, I can call the dealer and see what he says". I said "OK" but the kid just stands there. I guess he wants to lock the case back up before he makes the call. He locks the case and goes back to the counter. I don't know where I'm going with this, if anywhere, but I write down the other prices. Two Stanley #38s and a Stearns #93. The #38s are $150 each and the #93 is $250. The kid comes back and says he's left a message for the seller, "he usually calls right back", he says. "Let me see the other ones". He opens the case again. The #38s show some wear, with slightly rounded edges, but not bad, no major damage. All the pins are there. The #93 is a Stephens, not Stearns. The graduations are very legible but the brand name is very faint. All the pins are missing, and worse, one is broken off flush with the german silver hinge. The kid closes the case and I tell him we'll look over the rest of the mall and come back. We make the circuit and come back to the desk. The kid tells me the owner hasn't called back. I tell him I have to go and can I have the dealers phone number (I've already got his card from his display in the back of the mall). I get the dealer's phone number and we leave. At home I give Fred a call. I reintroduce myself. He knows me by sight but he doesn't know my name. I tell him I'm interested in the rules and would like to know what kind of deal he is willing to make. I tell him I know there is a standard 10 percent cash discount and can he do any better. What if I buy 'em all? I tell him I gotta eat dinner and do some research. He can think about it and call me back. I start going through my catalogs, auction results, and other stuff. After dinner Fred calls back. He says he can do 15%. 20% on all of them. Then he says, "I may be able to do a little better". I say, impatiently " What's the bottom line?" He says "$1300 for all five". I say "that's it?" He says "Yup." I told him I'd call him back. It's six in the evening. I figure I have about three hours to go through all the catalogues and price lists I have. My Walters books is the old one, '91, '92 version. I set out to find out what prices on Ivory Stanley rules have done recently in the FTJ, PATINA, Bud Brown, and FMM . I've also got some of Walter's old magazines. I don't find much that relates to the specific Stanley rule numbers that Fred is selling. However, it seems like all the rules, in any publication, that have any description higher than 'junker' have been selling for prices 10 to 40% higher than the price in the old Walters price guide I have. I figure, with unbridled optimism, these rules could go for as much as $2600. It's now nine o'clock. I call Fred back and tell him I'm leaning towards taking all five but I need to look at them again. He says he priced 'em out of the Stanley price guide, and he made adjustments for the condition. I ask him if he means Walter's price guide. He says, "No, the Stanley Guide". I didn't pursue it. It's probably Walter's book and I don't need to be telling him about the new one. Can he sell 'em to me 'privately' to avoid the sales tax? Anyway to shorten this up. I'm sitting here now with 5 really spiffy ivory rules in my hand. While they are really pretty, I have this horrible picture in my mind of elephants lined up at this factory entrance and carcasses lying at the other end. How could a production product have been based on such a fragile, finite, (and practically) non-renewable resource? The pile of carcasses is nearly is big as the one at the piano factory down the street! The 86 1/2 and the 89 are really nice rules! The others are good, too. I'm not going to throw them out because I (we) generally view some of the things our forefathers did as controversial, even shortsighted. I'm fascinated by the ideas, attitudes, and expectations of our parents. Next time someone gets too much of "the good ol' days" theme worked into their posts I'll offer some of the excepts from the war years magazines I have. These are the only tools I own that have ever raised this particular question, or the emotions that go with it. ...Gee, its late and I'm getting' weepy! Next, IVORY RULES, CARE and FEEDING, Q&A Regards, Bill W. P.S. I'll buy Walter's new price guide when someone can put it in my hand, but in the mean time, I'd be interested to know where the new price guide puts the high end prices on these puppies. Anyone got it yet? ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 15111 ---- From: Karl W. Sanger on Thu, Mar 13, 1997 8:24 PM Date: 1997-03-14 15:01:00 Subject: Re: PATINA and the #2 ________________________________________________________________________ _______ _ From: Blakley Bill on Thu, Mar 13, 1997 8:35 PM Subject: RE: Smug Galoots (was PATINA and #2) To: oldtools@l... Karl wrote 'First, I'd like to compliment the posts about the Potomac Antique Tools and Industries Association (PATINA)'. Thank you so much for that information. I have been wondering for a long time what PATINA was but I new better than to ask. I have seen too many good questions answered on this list with a smug response ... gee I know the answer to that question and you don't ... well you need to earn that Galoot hat so we will make you wonder forever. Anyway I feel better now. ________________________________________________________________________ _______ _ From: Karl W. Sanger on Thu, Mar 13, 1997 8:24 PM Subject: Re: PATINA and the #2 To: oldtools@l... PATINA'ed Galoots: The question came up as to how much the Stanley number 2 in an original box sold for at PATINA. First, I'd like to compliment the posts about the Potomac Antique Tools and Industries Association (PATINA) March 8 & 9 Tool Extravaganza. They have been right on target in terms of the posters reaction - what they were looking for at the sale. Remember, PATINA is a two day event, with Saturday having the most action (500+ buyers, 102 dealer tables and 37 tailgaters) and Sunday is for bidding (200 bid numbers and maybe 100 active bidders) with little tailgating because the people action was on Saturday. There were very high priced collectibles on both days, but PATINA is noted for its large numbers of mostly modestly priced users tools. The auction was no exception. We had a Stanley screwdriver sell for $210, a number 2 plane sell for 70 (fair condition) and the # 2 plane in an original (I didn't say it's) box sell for $700. I spent the most I ever have at the auction and I'm the cheapest guy on this list - that should tell you there were some bargins in the awfully long, 6 hour, 752 lot auction. Since a large number of the lots went to tool dealers, it should tell you that you could have attended the auction and bought for less than the dealers are going to charge you on FMM to buy it from them. ***************************************** * Karl W. Sanger * * * * Desperately seeking antique * * Machinist Tools!!! * * * * Email: sangerkw@m... * ***************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 15112 ---- From: GACHASSIN, KRIS Date: 1997-03-14 15:02:00 Subject: Saw Questions Fellow Galoots, I have a couple of saw related questions that I would like to throw out to the porch. * With respect to saw files, what is preferred for jointing and tooth shaping, a single cut or double cut file ? * Can anyone suggest some reading material or give me an idea when Diston would have produced the following : Henry Diston & Sons D-7 26" Skewback 8 pt 2Ľ" at toe & 6˝" under handle Any information is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Kris Gachassin ---- Start of Message 15113 ---- From: eric coyle Date: 1997-03-14 15:07:00 Subject: Re: MF - now that we've found it, what do we do with it? At 07:56 AM 3/14/97 -0500, Keith Mealy wrote: >Rumors of the Millers Falls Tool company in Cincinnati have >been confirmed by a quick check in the phone book. As it turns >out, it's less than 10 miles from my back door. Has anyone made >a close encounter of the third kind (Phone call)? If so, are they >still doing the hand-tool thing? > >What is it now that inquiring galoots want to know? > >Keith Mealy kmealy@c... ************************************************************************ Who is their archivist and why aren't they "online"........ Eric ---- Start of Message 15114 ---- From: Justin A. Haber Date: 1997-03-14 15:11:00 Subject: Re: galoot progress and a couple of questions Andy Wilkins awilkins@p... wrote: >now i'm probably going to put my foot in my mouth: >i wouldn't be suprised if in the nineteenth century there were people >who specialised in making mouldings, either with machines or with >massive moulding planes. Remove the foot. From reading Christies auction catalogs, I've learned that in the 18th & 19th centruries, furniture making was highly specialized. High end furniture makers would make the object itself, then send it out for the carvings to a carving shop. The buyer would then receive bills for both the piece and the carving. --Justin ---- Start of Message 15115 ---- From: John McCoy Date: 1997-03-14 15:25:00 Subject: Re: Glue and filling edge gaps On Mar 13, 15:38, John R Mudd wrote: I thought I was being clear but maybe I over-simplified things. How much gap is acceptable when edge-joining boards? On one edge that I call ready to-be-glued, I have 1/32", without clamping. On another edge that I have not finished planing yet, I have around 1/8", w/o clamping. I suspect the 1/32" gap will clamp nicely when it is glued. But how much gap can exist before I need to consider a gap-filling glue? I'd incline to think 1/32" is about the limit for yellow glue, specially since you're not going to flex 3 1/2" wood much unless you've got some really mondo clamps. 1/8" is too much for unthickened epoxy (it'll run out of the joint). Use sander dust (assuming you're enough of a heretic to have a power sander, of course :-) or something similar to thicken the epoxy enough that it won't run out of the joint - this doesn't weaken the epoxy to any great degree. Epoxy should only be clamped enough to hold things aligned, it's much easier to glue-starve an epoxy joint than with yellow glue (in my experience). Be advised also that epoxy is really hard on edge tools (i.e. when you're planing your benchtop flat). I think I'd be tempted to try & plane the pieces for a good fit and use yellow glue, but as you say without a good place to do it that may be pain & effort spent that'd be better reserved for some other project. John -- John McCoy mccoy@p... excp01@e... Motorola Inc Radio Products Group 8000 W Sunrise Blvd Plantation FL 33322 ---- Start of Message 15116 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1997-03-14 15:25:00 Subject: Re: Millers Falls in buisness? Ok guys, relax :-) Sheesh. I am not taking orders. I just wanted to make a point about the difference in price between new tools and old tools. And perhaps a sub-point about what tools cost when you go and find them yourself, instead of paying someone else to. And maybe a sub-sub-protest to what I fear will be a rapid rise in oldtool prices, for no other reason than to make more money. Paul P Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 15117 ---- From: Justin A. Haber Date: 1997-03-14 16:04:00 Subject: Re: Damascus Steel oldtools@listserv.law.cornell.edu "Richard Wilson" seskfur5@i... wrote: I'm no knifemaker, but I believe that 'damascening' (sp) took its rise in the days of the crusades, when swords were made (in Damascus, where else) which were inlaid in precious metal. A line design was chiselled out, and the resulting channels had gold wire beaten into them to create a gold inlay, finally being polished. I further believe that the term 'damascus' in modern day usage, per this thread, was hijacked from the original technique to indicate metal which gives the appearance of damascus work. Some time ago, I read an article about Damascus swords. From what I remember, they were made as Jerry described. The pattern of the steel can be used, by those who know, to determine which shop or sword maker produced the blade. It seems makers had different folding methods that produced different designs in the final product. The use of different metals was for the same reason that early western and Japanese plane blades use them, to allow the blade to get the best properties of both metals, i.e. flexable but soft and hard but brittle. The modern users of the term claim to use the same techniques as the original swordmakers, but the look can be faked with modern techniques. --Justin ---- Start of Message 15118 ---- From: Sam Peterson Date: 1997-03-14 16:06:00 Subject: Re: Glue and filling edge gaps Has anyone suggested placing the edges to be joined fairly close together and then sawing down the joint with a handsaw? After two or three passes, the joint should be pretty tight. This will bring the two edges more in line with each other. This technique was used in the wooden boat trade. Hope this helps! "John McCoy" mccoy@p... 03/14/97 09:25am >>> On Mar 13, 15:38, John R Mudd wrote: Subject: Re: Glue and filling edge gaps I thought I was being clear but maybe I over-simplified things. How much gap is acceptable when edge-joining boards? On one edge that I call ready to-be-glued, I have 1/32", without clamping. On another edge that I have not finished planing yet, I have around 1/8", w/o clamping. I suspect the 1/32" gap will clamp nicely when it is glued. But how much gap can exist before I need to consider a gap-filling glue? I'd incline to think 1/32" is about the limit for yellow glue, specially since you're not going to flex 3 1/2" wood much unless you've got some really mondo clamps. 1/8" is too much for unthickened epoxy (it'll run out of the joint). Use sander dust (assuming you're enough of a heretic to have a power sander, of course :-) or something similar to thicken the epoxy enough that it won't run out of the joint - this doesn't weaken the epoxy to any great degree. Epoxy should only be clamped enough to hold things aligned, it's much easier to glue-starve an epoxy joint than with yellow glue (in my experience). Be advised also that epoxy is really hard on edge tools (i.e. when you're planing your benchtop flat). I think I'd be tempted to try & plane the pieces for a good fit and use yellow glue, but as you say without a good place to do it that may be pain & effort spent that'd be better reserved for some other project. John -- John McCoy mccoy@p... excp01@e... Motorola Inc Radio Products Group 8000 W Sunrise Blvd Plantation FL 33322 ---- Start of Message 15119 ---- From: Carl Muhlhausen Date: 1997-03-14 16:06:00 Subject: Web Sites GGs, I think Richard Wilson recently suggested that we somehow get pictures of projects and tools from various Galoots on to the Web to enhance the multmedia aspect of the porch. A coworker put me on to the site "http://www.geocities.com which offers free home page storage for non-commercial use. I've set up my own home page there and it's a pretty slick operation (geocities, although I'm rather proud of my site too.) To get to my site directly go to: http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/2790 where I'm known as "harvwoodwrks". (ledzep was taken) I'm "across the street" from Brenda the heterosexual male crossdresser. He/she seems very nice. At my site you'll see the infamous quilted bubinga jewelry box, the hanging wall cabinet inspired when I was under the thrall of St. Krenov, and the cherry knitting chest attacked by rasps, spokeshaves, and other implements of destruction. I plan on adding more as time permits. I'm having some temporary difficulty with the actual home page, so for the time being go to: http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/2790/intemp.html Let me know what you think. Carl ---- Start of Message 15120 ---- From: Mack McKinney Date: 1997-03-14 16:08:00 Subject: Re: Handtool play ernfisch@p...,Internet writes: > Best dado I ever made and it took less time to do >than it took to write about it. Unless of course you count the time it took >to find a batten and the clamp. I too have just had one of these Gestalt kinds of things. I have been setting up my toobox floor intending to use 3/4' TIG (t-a-g, matched etc.) pine, and wanted to match the material I had on hand rather than go out and try and find some. Here is economy for you: to save money, I'm going to TIG the pine myself, so I need a ... no.-48. Who is it that said effectively that any job worth doing is worth purchasing a new tool for? Now, on to the morticing chisels I'll surely need... Anyway, the 48 finds its way from the GWN (Great White North, as in, MofA) to my back patio yesterday. Hmm... what a concept. This thing looks like it could even do in Darth Vader. So, while Momma's cooking supper, I slip out to the garage, and in less than 10 minutes I have the edges joined and then TIG-ed (does that make the 48 a "Tigger"? Ba dum bump.) Anyway, in my former life, I would have cut my 10' boards to length, set up my r**tah table (there's a 30 minute proposition to begin with), and started the process of TIG-ing scrap wood to prove my setup (probably another 30 minutes or so, the way I work). Anyway, that would be 60 minutes without so much as taking a cut on my project lumber, which would take at least 15 minutes to mill (not counting cross-cutting time). Not only did SWMBO get blown away when I walked back into the house (What's wrong?), but I made no banshee-noises or sawdust. Gee, this weekend we're even going to hit the local antique malls now... Mack, who is thoroughly hooked. Just say(tm) All this, and I could listen to my Bluegrass Boys CD whilst creating shavings... Oops -- don't start that one again! -- Mack McKinney Virtual Library Research and Design B.L. Fisher Library - Asbury Theological Seminary 606.858.2355 ---- Start of Message 15121 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-14 17:06:00 Subject: RE: MF - now that we've found it, what do we do with it? Ed Wrote... >I think the only prudent thing to do is to take control of the site >until they agree to restore this sacred shrine to it's original >state. This will pave the way for a march on Disston and, finally, >the grand daddy of them all, the Stanley Works. Hey! A crusade! Now we have a use for all that Damascus steel! We can stomp out age discrimination against old tools everywhere! Once more into the breach dear friends! Once more... Wait a minute, that was Henry V wasn't it. Oh well, it must be Friday. Scot "Just Say" Maybe Miniver Cheevy really was born too late. ;-_) > ---- Start of Message 15122 ---- From: John Elliott Date: 1997-03-14 17:14:00 Subject: Help with old Craftsman P*wer Sander I recieved this e-mail : >hopefully this can get me somewhere. I have a very old 30 or 40 year old craftsman disc/belt sander model 103.0303. I'm trying to restore the thing and noticed that the mechenism where the tracking knobs are is broken. Do you know of any sources of parts for tools this old? He has tried Sears. > You can direct e-mails to me if you have any ideas. Thanks jelliott@s... http://www.sycomtech.com/oldtool ---- Start of Message 15123 ---- From: Paul Houtz Date: 1997-03-14 17:11:00 Subject: Re: Glue and filling edge gaps >How much gap is acceptable when edge-joining boards? On one edge that I >call ready to-be-glued, I have 1/32", without clamping. On another >edge that I have not finished planing yet, I have around 1/8", w/o >clamping. >I suspect the 1/32" gap will clamp nicely when it is glued. But how >much gap can exist before I need to consider a gap-filling glue? I had a major epiphany a while back when I *stopped* clamping panels. I started using rub joints instead. This requires the edge to be much flatter than 1/64". No visible gaps at all. It also requires the stock to be dead flat. The edges don't have to be square, but should be planed together (mine end up mostly square anyway). This epiphany sent me off into a long period of self-apprenticeship on stock preparation, which has yet to end. I am getting a lot better, but I still have a lot of skill to gain. Nowadays I have a tool that is a simple u-shaped stand for my panels. I rub joint them and the stand holds the panel vertical until the glue dries. I get pretty nice panels and the glue joints are quite hard to see. I also don't have to spend much time planing the panel after glue up. I use a scraper after the glue gels, before it completely hardens, and the results are nice. Question for the porch: Are rub-jointed panels as strong as panels that have been clamped? -gph ---- Start of Message 15124 ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1997-03-14 17:13:00 Subject: prices I quoted on new MF/Stanley tools... Paul Pedersen posted a useful comment on the differences in cost between used and new tools, in a thread containing some price quotes I posted for the new stuff. Keep in mind that the catalog I was quoting from is generally high priced. I just looked up the 1993 prices they list for other stuff of a more commonly available sort, and they have, for example, $29 for a 25' Stanley measuring tape (I bought one recently, new, for $12); $33 for a Stanley #151 spokeshave (Woodcraft sells the Record equivalent from time to time for about $20); $110 for a Stanley UK #78 rabbet plane; etc. So, I think they prices in general look like full Manufacturer's List Price on a lot of stuff -- they make Garrett Wade look cheap. Now I reember why I never bought anything from them! -- Andrew ---- Start of Message 15125 ---- From: Marrin T. Fleet Date: 1997-03-14 11:36:00 Subject: Re: Damascus Steel > On 14 Mar 97 at 6:03, Richard Wilson wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:03:26 EST > > Reply-to: seskfur5@i... > > From: "Richard Wilson" seskfur5@i... > > To: oldtools@l... > > Subject: Re: Damascus Steel > > > > > Steven Thomas responded to Jerry.. > > > > >> While out scrounging around yesterday I came across and old >> > > crosscut saw ..edit.. >>and the blade had DAMASCUS STEEL etched > > across the top of the logo .. cut away.. > > > > >I was recently reading a book on knife making .. > > ..sliced out.. > > >making knives from damascus steel. In this context it involved > > laminating > 2 different steels together by hand blacksmith > > style. These were then > folded/cut and rewelded over and over so > > that each time the chunk of > steel was hammered out the > > laminations became thinner and thinner, and > increased in number > > 2 fold each time. The result was a blade that had a >sort of wood > > grained pattern which resulted from the multiple laminations >of > > the 2 slightly different coloured steels. In this form damascus > > steel > is highly prized (at least for knives) as it is hard to > > make, is very > beautiful and holds an excellent edge > > (apparently). ... rest cut away.. > > > > I'm no knifemaker, but I believe that 'damascening' (sp) took its > > rise in the days of the crusades, when swords were made (in > > Damascus, where else) which were inlaid in precious metal. A > > line design was chiselled out, and the resulting channels had > > gold wire beaten into them to create a gold inlay, finally being > > polished. This was a skilled task - handling very fine steel > > cutting chisels etc, where today we would engrave, or even etch > > such a design. (for 'skilled' read 'expensive imported' ! ) > > As I understand it, the term 'damascene' is meant to imply that the steel in such blades was made in the Damascus manner. Early smelting of metals, even as late as the turn of this century, did not result in the highly precise alloy content of today's proceesses. Some was brittle, some was strong but ductile. The method you describe of forge welding layers of differing steels was a successful attempt to combine these characteristics. In making a superior steel, something beautiful also was born. > I further believe that the term 'damascus' in modern day usage, > > per this thread, was hijacked from the original technique to > > indicate metal which gives the appearance of damascus work. A > > most noticeable example being the production of knife blades > > which incorporate old motorcycle chain. Imagine a moment the > > pattern resulting from taking a chain and forging it into a > > blade. It would look simialr to the original inlay results. and > > as 'Damascus' is an adjective applied to quality, expensive > > blades, why not purloin it. I know I would, if I could make such > > a thing. > While 'Damascus' is indeed made this way by a few, the reputable describe the origin of the steel. However, note again that Damascus is not an inlay process. Inlaying was sometimes carried out on a Damascus or damascene blade, but 'Damascus' refers to the method of producing the steel. If damascene has come to mean the inlaying as well, it is one of those inaccuracies that creep into language! Another 'object' used in the manner of motorcycle chain is old steel cable. Impurities give a similar appearance to a twisted pattern welded Damascus steel, but because of the impurities, is frequently inferior to true Damascus. In case you wonder about my information, I am one of a number of metalworkers who have learned to make Damascus steel from other, more well-known, smiths. I am a member of the volunteer group supporting the National Ornamental Museum here in Memphis. The director of the museum, James Wallace, was one of the people who began to revive Damascus steel for use as knives and other objects some 25-30 years ago. Another in that group was Daryl Meyer. Daryl is perhaps the most accomplished Damascus maker in this country, and perhaps internationaly. I have attended siminars in Damascus by Daryl, and what he does is amazing! He has better control over the resultant pattern than anyone else I have seen. Anothe Damascus maker I have had the pleasure of studying under, if only for a few days, is Bill Firoini. Bill produces Damascus on a commercial basis for use by a couple of knife companies. Someone who makes and uses Damascus can be found in almost any chapter of ABANA (Artist-Blacksmith Association of North America). Some of you might find it of interest to look some of them up, and go watch a skilled smith make Damascus. I guarantee you will be fascinated, as I obviously am! > Marrin T. Fleet MFleet@c... SCT Corp. in adminstration of: Admin. Computing Services The University of Memphis Memphis, TN 38152 901-678-3604 ---- Start of Message 15126 ---- From: Marrin T. Fleet Date: 1997-03-14 11:40:00 Subject: Re: DAMASCUS STEEL On 14 Mar 97 at 7:57, Mack McKinney wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:57:32 -0500 > > Reply-to: Mack_McKinney@m... > > From: Mack_McKinney@m... (Mack > > McKinney) To: oldtools@l... > > Subject: Re: DAMASCUS STEEL > > > Steven.Thomas@m...,Internet writes: > > > > (Accurate account of manufaturing process snipped) > > > > >In this form damascus steel is highly > > >prized (at least for knives) as it is hard to make, is very > > >beautiful and holds an excellent edge (apparently). > > > > I will testify to this, as I have seen these things. An > > interesting FWIW, this process was used to manufacture shotgun > > barrels in the previous century. A ribbon of steel were wound > > around a mandrel and welded. > The process was more than just this. Correctly formulated Damascus, or pattern-welded steel, increased the strength of the steel. Many non-Damascus barrels were also hand-made in this way. The Damascus barrels were made with a ribbon of Damascus steel, therefore were theoretically, and probably actually as well, stronger than non-Damascus barrels. They are beautiful, however. A friend of mine, also a metalsmith, still uses a chambered shotgun from early this century. Says it does a good job! Yes, I am a new guy that just de-lurked! Sorry about the confusion on sending messages to the list. Your procedures and protocols are a little different from other lists to which I subscribe, and I goofed! I think I have it right, now. Thanks! Marrin T. Fleet MFleet@c... SCT Corp. in adminstration of: Admin. Computing Services The University of Memphis Memphis, TN 38152 901-678-3604 ---- Start of Message 15127 ---- From: Karl W. Sanger Date: 1997-03-14 17:42:00 Subject: Re: DAMASCUS STEEL Galoots, Newly manufactured Damascus Steel is being produced today, but I doubt you'd find it in any store bought, mass produced product. Steven wrote: Date: 1997-03-14 17:49:00 Subject: How do you prevent glue splotches? Gentle Galoots, I am getting ready to glue up a dovetailed toolchest and don't want the excess glue to mess up the finish. The plans say to use Waxilit. I have never heard of the stuff and don't see it in the catalogs. How do other galoots prevent glue squeeze out from messing up the finish? ---- Start of Message 15129 ---- From: Mack McKinney Date: 1997-03-14 16:53:00 Subject: Re: DAMASCUS STEEL mfleet@m...,Internet writes: >The process was more than just this. Correctly formulated > Damascus, or pattern-welded steel, increased the strength of the > steel. Many non-Damascus barrels were also hand-made in this way. > The Damascus barrels were made with a ribbon of Damascus steel, > therefore were theoretically, and probably actually as well, > stronger than non-Damascus barrels. They are beautiful, however. > A friend of mine, also a metalsmith, still uses a chambered shotgun > from early this century. Says it does a good job! > Well, I knew this, but I have a nasty habit of drawing the threads way off topic (due to varied interests, I guess) and was trying to not get to deep into it. OTOH, I love to look at Damascus shotguns, and I hope to get into blackpowder shotgunning when I get settled in a few months. (Been doing the blackpowder rifle/pistol thing for a long time.) > Yes, I am a new guy that just de-lurked! > Well, welcome. We have a tradition (formulated to avoid the Listmom's wrath) that you give us a brief bio, examples of which may be found on the OldTools Porch archive. C'mon up, it's a big porch for being so "down home." -- Mack McKinney Virtual Library Research and Design B.L. Fisher Library - Asbury Theological Seminary 606.858.2355 ---- Start of Message 15130 ---- From: Webber, Bill Date: 1997-03-14 13:06:00 Subject: Ivory Rules Q&A Hey, this is the last one, 'promise. These ivory rules must have been the YB status symbol of yesteryear. The ivory 86 1/2 sold for 12 TIMES what a similar 53 1/2 in boxwood did. This in spite of the disclaimer in the Stanley catalog which offers: "Ivory is very susceptible to atmospheric conditions, consequently a contraction or expansion occurs as the weather may be dry or damp. For this reason ivory rules cannot be guaranteed to retain their accuracy as in the case of boxwood rules." And from the same ca 1915 catalog reprint: 86 1/2 sold for $96/doz or $8.00 each 53 1/2 sold for $8/doz or about 65c each #4 Bailey plane is $2 Can anyone think of a reason for buying the ivory other than status or for pretty? (pretty works for me (-: ) The catalog doesn't offer any advantages such as accuracy, durability, etc. I know german silver is not silver. I think the formula was posted here last fall. Anyone remember what german silver is made of? Any suggestions for cleaning these things. Can or should german silver be polished with anything? I'm real inclined to leave 'em alone unless someone has a proven formula. Is it necessary or recommended to provide any kind of protection for the metal or the ivory? I'm going to try to repair the broken alignment pin in the Stephens #93. I'm going to try to coax a tiny drill into the remnants of the old pin. Maybe I can snag it or keep making the hole bigger 'til the old pin disappears. I doubt there is any kind of easy-out for this kind of work. Anyone got any suggestions? Well, that's my account of the annual PATINA distraction. Momma wants oak flooring in the kitchen so I have to get back to work. I got a nice #48 here. Now what did I do with that rule? (-: Thanks for all the responses. Regards, Bill W. ---- Start of Message 15131 ---- From: Paul A. Lalonde Date: 1997-03-14 18:00:00 Subject: Re: Damascus Steel In message 199703141736.LAA04835@o...you write: > As I understand it, the term 'damascene' is meant to imply that the > steel in such blades was made in the Damascus manner. Early > smelting of metals, even as late as the turn of this century, did > not result in the highly precise alloy content of today's > proceesses. Some was brittle, some was strong but ductile. The > method you describe of forge welding layers of differing steels was > a successful attempt to combine these characteristics. In making a > superior steel, something beautiful also was born. Now here's a point of some more debate. Recent thinking has it that the real, medieval, Damascus steel was not a product of forge welding up billets from various different steels and irons. It may have actually refered to a particular type of steel. The so-called wootz process, developped in India some 1000 years ago, makes a steel with an obsene amount of carbon (>4%) in it but without being brittle. In particular this steel is worked at much lower temperatures, somewhere around 800F - hardly hot enough to even glow. The process of making the steel involves dropping your iron bloom in a sealed crucible along with lots of charcoal, then bringing it up to smelting temperatures. Then the tricky part starts. The crucible has to be cooled very slowly - 2 degrees per hour or so, over a period of a couple of weeks. The net result is that much more carbon is included than in the usual processes. If you heat your wootz steel too much, it loses its nice properties,a nd you're left with a normal chunk of steel. Tales have it that the steel was introduced to europe, but that the smiths would not believe how cold it had to be worked, ruining it, and causing the arabs to simply raise the price on finished products. The property that led to the name 'Damascus' being applied to all forms of patterned blades is that once worked, ground, and polished, the wootz steel shows a distinct cell-like pattern on the surface, from the distribution of the carbon. One more mess of details nobody really wanted to know about, Paul Internet: lalonde@c... Web: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/lalonde/homepage.html "On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur, l'essentiel est invisible aux yeux" - Antoine de St.-Exupery ---- Start of Message 15132 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-14 18:05:00 Subject: RE: Glue and filling edge gaps Paul wrote... > I had a major epiphany a while back when I *stopped* clamping > panels. > > I started using rub joints instead. > This is not the first time I have heard of "rub jointing", but I have no idea what it is or how to do it. I am getting ready to start jointing my bench top and this sounds interesting. I WAS waiting for payday when I could go out and buy pipe clamps. ;-_) What the heck are rub joints and how do you (I) do them? Is there a FAQ that I've missed somewhere? Please help. Thanks Scot > ---- Start of Message 15133 ---- From: Dave Lagzdin Date: 1997-03-14 13:38:00 Subject: RE: Lumberman's Museum - website Cool site. Wish I had an ox in my tool arsenal. snip>>>> Greetings, This evening I ran across a website which seems appropriately galootish. It is the website of the Maine Lumberman's Museum in Patten, Maine. A few neat old pictures and some text. If you're interested, here is the url: http://www.mainerec.com/logger.html I don't recall this website having been mentioned previously on oldtools. Enjoy! Don McConnell end snip>>> ---- Start of Message 15134 ---- From: CHRISTOPHER SCHAFER Date: 1997-03-14 18:23:00 Subject: Standards? Galoots, David Hunkins writing about the Simpson Machine Tool Co. thinks it is our duty to support new manufacturers that meet our standards. What are our standards? Do the RALI swiss hand planes offered by Woodcraft meet our standards? Will any galoot admit to having tried these things out? If you were to design a handplane today would it look like the old planes we use now? I think that the iron bench planes inherited their features from their wooden predecessors. They are improved versions of their ancestors and they could be very different if they were built from scratch with every piece rethought. Chris Schafer Millersport, Ohio ---- Start of Message 15135 ---- From: Larry McVoy Date: 1997-03-14 18:22:00 Subject: High Speed Steel I was talking to a turning (lathe) guy recently and he swore by HSS. Claimed it held an edge longr than anything else and that you had to work much harder to draw the temper when grinding. So a couple of questions: . Is it true? Is HSS better? Didn't Cecil Pierce like it? . Does LN use HSS for his blades? . Are Hock blades HSS? . If Hock blades are not HSS and people think HSS is better, when is Ron going to offer HSS blades? Thanks. --lm ---- Start of Message 15136 ---- From: James Foster Date: 1997-03-14 18:23:00 Subject: Re: Ivory Rules Q&A Webber, Bill wrote:
>
> I know german silver is not silver. I think the formula
> was posted here last fall. Anyone remember what
> german silver is made of?

German silver is nickle silver is a nickle alloy.

>
> Any suggestions for cleaning these things. Can or
> should german silver be polished with anything?
> I'm real inclined to leave 'em alone unless someone
> has a proven formula. Is it necessary or recommended
> to provide any kind of protection for the metal or
> the ivory?

Well, FWIW high end clarinet keys are made of nickle
silver (my previous life as an instrument repairman
talking). They buff up quite well with NuWhite followed
by rouge. Neither of which (especially the rouge) I'd
want on my expensive ivory rules. It will lightly
tarnish, really more like frost over, with time. You
could try Renassiance wax after cleaning the parts to
help preserve the finish.

----------------------------------------------------------------
---- Start of Message 15137 ---- From: Erwin L Schaffer Date: 1997-03-14 18:23:00 Subject: Re:Saw Questions- OLDTOOLS digest 1274 The Disston D-7 was produced between 1929 and 1955. Was called "lightweight skewback". In 1945, they produced another D-7 in "regular weight" but with" straight back". I don't understand why they used the same model number for the year they produced the straight back handsaw! They sure had a lot of models over the years. Erv Schaffer (ErvSaws) ---- Start of Message 15138 ---- From: Keith Mealy Date: 1997-03-14 19:28:00 Subject: Re: MF - now that we've found it, what do we do with it? A not so quick phone call confirms MF are still in business. Although from the help I got, it might be a miracle. They still produce a hand drill model 2-01, with MSRP of $115. They "have a few planes left, maybe, but they're getting out of that business." They would prefer not to deal direct to the public but to use their distributors. He referred me to a nearby hardware store, Howard's Supply, ask for Mark Kaplan 513-271-5106 who could "probably order some". The other place he thought might carry them is a local place that does nationwide mail order, Sporty's, 513-735-9000. I am getting a catalog from them. The guy from MF did not seem real familiar with these tools (read off specs from the catalog) and was not quite sure what business they were in with respect to handtools. "We are getting into drilling with ... ." He also mentioned that Stanley had really cut back on the plane selection they are offering. Keith Mealy kmealy@c... Cincinnati, OH http://www.cincom.com "This message should not be construed as an official representation of Cincom Systems." ---- Start of Message 15139 ---- From: Randy Roeder Date: 1997-03-14 19:26:00 Subject: High Speed Steel--another question I have another question to add the the multitude already posed. Are HSS turning tools harder to sharpen with traditional stones, sandpapers, etc? Randy Roeder Repaint houses, not old tools. ---- Start of Message 15140 ---- From: Jerry Russell Date: 1997-03-14 19:26:00 Subject: Re: High Speed Steel > . Is it true? Is HSS better? Didn't Cecil Pierce like it? Speaking strictly from experience my HSS turning tools will hold and edge longer than my other chisels - but just as important for me is the fact that they are much harder to burn when sharpening on the grinder (something I tend to be very good at). Ron Hock has a web page discussing steel at: http://www.mcn.org/a/rhock/steelrap.htm Regards, - Jerry Who has several non HSS chisels with pretty blue edges ---- Start of Message 15141 ---- From: Jerry Russell Date: 1997-03-14 19:56:00 Subject: Re: Ivory Rules Q&A > > German silver is nickle silver is a nickle alloy. > > > > > Any suggestions for cleaning these things. Can or > > should german silver be polished with anything? > > I'm real inclined to leave 'em alone unless someone > > has a proven formula. Is it necessary or recommended > > to provide any kind of protection for the metal or > > the ivory? > > Well, FWIW high end clarinet keys are made of nickle > silver (my previous life as an instrument repairman > talking). They buff up quite well with NuWhite followed > by rouge. Neither of which (especially the rouge) I'd > want on my expensive ivory rules. It will lightly > tarnish, really more like frost over, with time. You > could try Renassiance wax after cleaning the parts to > help preserve the finish. > Any of you fly-fisherperson types out there are probably well aware that a lot of the high-end flyrod components are made from nickle silver (real seats, winding checks). As a builder of custom flyrods I have noticed that this stuff tarnishes pretty quickly (I get a lot of "new" components pre-tarnished). I've found that silver polish works okay for me but usually I just leave them with the antique looking yellow tinge. I don't have a catalog handy but it seems like Orvis has a product "specially designed" to clean nickle silver but as with everything Orvis - have your checkbook ready. - Jerry Whose nickle silver flyrod components seem to spend a lot of time underwater (along with their not too graceful owner). ---- Start of Message 15142 ---- From: Dan Hogan Date: 1997-03-14 20:00:00 Subject: Re: Help with old Craftsman P*wer Sander John: I have a collection of Sears tools from the 301.xxxxx era. There are NO vendors for parts. In those days Sears used contract manufacturers to make the tools to their specificatons. Which were usually not to industry standards. For the bandsaw I found equivalent bearings at $20.00 each. The upper bandsaw guide is broken so there it sits. I found getting parts made by a local machine shop cheaper than buying/looking for the original Sears part. Now IF I buy power tools I buy NEW. Dan Hogan West Covina, CA dhhogan@l... ---- Start of Message 15143 ---- From: Jerry Russell Date: 1997-03-14 20:06:00 Subject: Re: Ivory Rules Q&A > I don't have a catalog handy but it seems like Orvis has a > product "specially designed" to clean nickle silver but as > with everything Orvis - have your checkbook ready. Oops, just got off the phone with Orvis who does not carry a specific product but recommends the use of regular silver cleaner. - Jerry ---- Start of Message 15144 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-14 20:35:00 Subject: Re: Glue and filling edge gaps At 09:11 AM 3/14/97 -0800, Paul Houtz wrote: > >>How much gap is acceptable when edge-joining boards? On one edge that I > > I had a major epiphany a while back when I *stopped* clamping > panels. > > I started using rub joints instead. > What kind of glue? Ron > > I also don't have to spend much time planing the panel after glue up. > > I use a scraper after the glue gels, before it completely hardens, > and the results are nice. > > Question for the porch: Are rub-jointed panels as strong as panels > that have been clamped? > > -gph > >---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 15145 ---- From: Webber, Bill Date: 1997-03-14 20:35:00 Subject: RE: How do you prevent glue splotches? The first, best rule is care in application. The worse thing you can do is to try to wipe away excess glue. When you do that you mostly just spread it around and force it into the wood. For white and yellow glue, I've had pretty good success with simply letting the sqeezed out glue get semi hard, rubbery, and then lift it off with with a knife of some kind. On the outside, on flat surfaces you can let it harden then simply plane, scrape, or sand it away. For inside corners I usually try to lift it off in the rubbery condition. Regards, Bill W. How do other galoots prevent glue squeeze out from messing up the finish? ---- Start of Message 15146 ---- From: Keith Mealy Date: 1997-03-14 16:26:00 Subject: Re: MF - now that we've found it, what do we do with it? Thanks for the comments. I've picked up 2 MF eggbeaters since last summer for less than $20 each. I also ordered the MF#1 spokeshave repro for $35. Although Sporty's is near here, I've never gotten any catalogs from them. My personal take on this, having been working with a professional trim carpenter in the last two months is this: - People who use tools all the time need to use corded tools to keep efficiency up to make money (you and I might argue this, since I beat him #80 to belt sander, but I can't pry it out of his hands). - People who don't use tools all the time either automatically go for power (less skill, more accuracy (?), and that's what Norm has brainwashed), -or- don't know the difference between a good tool and a bad one (e.g., plastic handled blister raisers). SO, the question is not one of why can't they make tools like they used to, it's why don't they. a) they don't need to -or- b) they can't do volume in higher priced tools At 03:15 PM 3/14/97 EST, you wrote: >> ....The other place he thought might carry them is a local >> place that does nationwide mail order, Sporty's, 513-735-9000. >> I am getting a catalog from them. > >Sporty's is at 1-800-543-8633 > >However, they're a bit expensive, and most of their catalog is >just stuff for around the house or for your car. Not really >a "tool" catalog, in the sense of a place like Tools-on-Sale >or William Alden Co. etc.etc. > >I think that they do have a brace with hardwood handles for >around $100. Perhaps that's made by MillersFalls?? > >They also have a full set of Irwin augers in the wooden box, >for another $100-120 or so. > >And they did once have a pair of adjustable augers, probably >made by MF, for around $20+ each. etc.etc.etc. > >But over the years, I found out that if you hold your breath >just long enough, and look under enough rocks, you'll find >all of the above and more for much, much less second hand. > >Walter > Keith Mealy kmealy@c... Cincinnati, OH http://www.cincom.com "This message should not be construed as an official representation of Cincom Systems." ---- Start of Message 15147 ---- From: Jerry Russell Date: 1997-03-14 21:40:00 Subject: KTW - MF #1 serial numbers Tim Kelly (Kelly Tool Works) called asking me to let people know that if they purchased a MF #1 repro before he started stamping the serial numbers on them that you can return them to him and he will put the appropriate serial # on your shave if you desire. He has a log of the order they were made and shipped out to ensure the correct serial #. He also says he's sold over 50 so far with a large number going to those "galoot" guys. Regards - Jerry ---- Start of Message 15148 ---- From: Kent K. Fitzgerald Date: 1997-03-14 21:55:00 Subject: Re: MF - now that we've found it, what do we do with it? On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Keith Mealy wrote: > A not so quick phone call confirms MF are still in business. Although > from the help I got, it might be a miracle. [Tale of woe and apathy snipped.] So, it sounds like the once proud Miller's Falls Co. is sort of alive, but not exactly kicking. Perhaps unidead would be the proper term. Keith, I admire your tenacity for sticking out the entire phone call - I probably would have dropped from depression about halfway. It's ugly when a company is so unenthusiatic that they can't even be bothered to know anything about their own product, much less encourage you to spend money on it. That outlook galls me enough at chain stores and the like, but coming from a tool company it's particularly disheartening. Ack. OK, enough morbid moaning for a Friday afternoon. My impression was that the current, un-dead M.F. is strictly an importer/distributor (the one and only new M.F. tool I've ever seen was a little U.K. made square). Keith's phone call certainly supports that impression - I don't see how they could possibly sustain an actual manufacturing operation. Am I right on this? On a more hopeful note, this makes me appreciate all the more my nice old M.F. brace, as well as Lie-Nielsen, Hock, Independence Tool, and the others who keep the flame burning. Kent ______________________________________________ Kent Fitzgerald kentfitz@c... ---- Start of Message 15149 ---- From: Kent K. Fitzgerald Date: 1997-03-14 22:02:00 Subject: Re: MF - now that we've found it, what do we do with it? On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Kent "Nice Typing, Corn Head" Fitzgerald wrote: > So, it sounds like the once proud Miller's Falls Co. is sort of alive, but > not exactly kicking. Perhaps unidead would be the proper term. Duh, I mean UNDEAD. Unidead is a trademark of Delta International Machinery, proud sponsors of Night of the Living Yankee Workshop, etc. Someone shut me up, already. Kent ______________________________________________ Kent Fitzgerald kentfitz@c... ---- Start of Message 15150 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-14 22:18:00 Subject: Re: KTW - MF #1 serial numbers > Tim Kelly (Kelly Tool Works) called asking me to let people > know that if they purchased a MF #1 repro before he started > stamping the serial numbers on them that you can return them > to him and he will put the appropriate serial # on your shave > if you desire. He has a log of the order they were made and > shipped out to ensure the correct serial #. > > He also says he's sold over 50 so far with a large number > going to those "galoot" guys. > > Regards So who's got serial #1? Should that person stop using the tool and preserve it for posterity/collectors? - Don ---- Start of Message 15151 ---- From: Kenneth Watkins Date: 1997-03-14 22:29:00 Subject: Bio-Kenneth Watkins Well, after lurking for the last several months now, I'm finally biting the bullet to write the bio. Apologies for not following the rules, but it always seemed that in the little time I have/allow for sitting in front of the computer, it was always more fun to read through the next 100 or so messages than write something about myself. I grew up on a farm in central Tx. (B/CS area for you Texans out there). By todays standards, my old man was a master in most trades but worked both before and after the farm gig as a carpenter. He was old enough that in his early days, it was almost all handtools. In case you folks wonder what happened to all the old saws, I mentioned to my mother the other day that I was getting into handtools and she said that she remembered dad coming home from work in the early days and sharpening his handsaws almost every night. It wasn't till I was much older that I learned that handsaws don't all come to a near point at the end. Growing up, we had a decent shop; all the handtools you'd expect plus the corded kind too (ts, lathe etc.). There was no particular love for the old tools except to treat them right and use the right tool for the job. I think dad was probably one of the first to own a 'lectric handplane. (If you're hanging doors all day long and you're in your 50's with nine kids at home (I'm number eight), you might get one too). I worked as a trim/cabinet carpenter and as a framer during the summers through high school and part of college. Though we built some nice 'custom' homes, this wasn't high craftwork: to most of the folks I worked with, wood movement was something associated with a settling slab or not using enough nails, and handplanes were little tools used for fixing F****ups even the painters couldn't fix. I've been into oldtools for a while now but only recently with the list and newly aquired knowledge has it begun to be serious. Strictly user mode here, I remember several years back going out to replace a framing square that flew out the back of the truck and finding a new Stanley: aluminized paint flaking off at the store and not a table on it. Shook head, muttered something unintelligable and found an old one for about a quarter of the price. Broken needle nose pliers: new ones at Sears required both hands to open. Grumble, grumble, Garage sales and WD-40. Got a Stanley Handyman miterbox for a buck, brought it home and huh? it cuts angles in locked-in increments of 15? No way to cut 22 1/2? Grumble again and still looking for a good old one (that'd be a hint, but I'm too cheap to pay the postage). Since joining the list, I've been happily de-rusting some nice user tools. Carefully with the good stuff (recent auction, 606C Bedrock, probably type 8 if the Bedrocks follow the other type study--$20); and electrolyzing the rest: pliers, Pexto pipe wrenches, auger bits etc. I get a kick out of electrolysis since my battery charger is a Sears Craftsman, using a Crapsman electric apprentice to rescue oldtools has a pleasant irony for me. I went to UT Austin for undergraduate and the UW in Seattle for graduate work in Biochemistry. I got my Phd in 1989 in Seattle did post-doc work in Berkeley and San Francisco and recently moved to my wife's hometown in Eugene, OR with two apprentices in tow: 4 1/2 y.o. boy and 2 y. o. girl. Between work, the kids, searching for and learning to use old tools and rehabilitating an older house previously owned by an idiot do-it-yourselfer, the days are pretty much full (anybody have a great oldtool or technique for removing 8 penny commons from trimwork?). Apologies for the Lamantian bio. I'll come up on the porch now, if there are no objections. I've got a few questions saved up for the more experienced galoots. Kenneth Watkins ---- Start of Message 15152 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-14 23:03:00 Subject: Re: High Speed Steel > I was talking to a turning (lathe) guy recently and he swore by HSS. > Claimed it held an edge longr than anything else and that you had to > work much harder to draw the temper when grinding. So a couple of > questions: > > . Is it true? Is HSS better? Didn't Cecil Pierce like it? > . Does LN use HSS for his blades? > . Are Hock blades HSS? > . If Hock blades are not HSS and people think HSS is better, > when is Ron going to offer HSS blades? High speed steel (of which there is many varieties) is much better than "regular" steel in applications where high temperature is generated during cutting. It is the standard type of steel used in inexpensive tooling for cutting metal in the metalworking industry. Some wood-turners prefer it because it holds its edge well under the high temperatures often generated during turning. I know _Woodcraft Supply_ (ask O'Deen about them ;-) sells two makes of HSS turning tools, here are the web pages where they list/discuss them:
  • Sorby" target="_top" >http://www2.woodcraft.com/Woodcraft/pages/11i40.htm">Sorby HSS Turning Tools
  • Woodcraft" target="_top" >http://www2.woodcraft.com/Woodcraft/pages/14q84.htm">Woodcraft HSS Turning Tools You can make a set of simple quality chisels by obtaining HSS square stock in usual chisel sizes (1/8", 1/4", 1/2" etc.) and grinding an edge on them. They will serve you well, if you don't mind using chisels without a handle. HSS is not all that cheap though, and a set of low end (Marples) chisels would probably be cheaper. The extra cost of HSS and the extra difficulty in working with the material probably accounts for why you don't find it used more in woodworking. - Don "Waiting for those 'diamond tipped' plane-irons" ---- Start of Message 15153 ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1997-03-14 23:03:00 Subject: Re: Bio-Kenneth Watkins > In case you > folks wonder what happened to all the old saws, I mentioned to my mother > the other day that I was getting into handtools and she said that she > remembered dad coming home from work in the early days and sharpening his > handsaws almost every night. It wasn't till I was much older that I > learned that handsaws don't all come to a near point at the end. I've got one of my grandpappy's saws that has had a good 2 inches sharpened off of it. My dad says that the Sunday night ritual for his dad was sharpening his saws--they were properly done when he could slide a needle down the length of them. > Carefully with the good stuff (recent auction, 606C Bedrock, > probably type 8 if the Bedrocks follow the other type study--$20) That qualifies for a gloat! Welcome. Ed Bell ed.bell@c... Cincinnati Bell Information Systems Opinions expressed are my own and do not neccessarily reflect those of my employer. ---- Start of Message 15154 ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1997-03-14 17:57:00 Subject: Re: MF - now that we've found it, what do we do with it? > My personal take on this, having been working with a professional > trim carpenter in the last two months is this: > > - People who use tools all the time need to use corded tools > to keep efficiency up to make money > > - People who don't use tools all the time either automatically go > for power (less skill, more accuracy (?), and that's what Norm has > brainwashed), -or- don't know the difference between a good tool > and a bad one (e.g., plastic handled blister raisers). Keith can probably support this (or slap it down), since he's been involved in a project involving multiple copies of one design, but my take has always been that on a one-off item, an oldtooler can probably compete with a Normite. But in a production environment, where you have to make 50 of them, the Normite will always win. Isn't this fact what drove mass production in the first place--interchangeable parts can only be economically produced using machines? > SO, the question is not one of why can't they make tools like > they used to, it's why don't they. a) they don't need to -or- > b) they can't do volume in higher priced tools c) there isn't a (perceived) market. Ed Bell ed.bell@c... Cincinnati Bell Information Systems Opinions expressed are my own and do not neccessarily reflect those of my employer. ---- Start of Message 15155 ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1997-03-14 17:57:00 Subject: Re: High Speed Steel--another question > Are HSS turning tools harder to sharpen with traditional stones, > sandpapers, etc? This was basically what I was asking in my first reply to this thread--my impression is that they are almost impossible to sharpen with traditional stones. Ed Bell ed.bell@c... Cincinnati Bell Information Systems Opinions expressed are my own and do not neccessarily reflect those of my employer. ---- Start of Message 15156 ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1997-03-14 17:57:00 Subject: Re: High Speed Steel > I was talking to a turning (lathe) guy recently and he swore by HSS. > Claimed it held an edge longer than anything else and that you had to > work much harder to draw the temper when grinding. Isn't it much harder to sharpen, though? > Didn't Cecil Pierce like it? The planes of Cecil's that I saw were built around plane irons from vintage wooden planes. I can't say he didn't use (or make) new irons, but I didn't see any. I do recall him saying that he swore by anything from Starett (converse to Ron Hock who I believe--correct me if I'm wrong--said he prefers to swear *at* Starrett), and I think he did make chisels and other cutting tools from HSS. Ed Bell ed.bell@c... Cincinnati Bell Information Systems Opinions expressed are my own and do not neccessarily reflect those of my employer. ---- Start of Message 15157 ---- From: Ed Bell Date: 1997-03-14 17:57:00 Subject: Re: KTW - MF #1 serial numbers > Tim Kelly (Kelly Tool Works) called asking me to let people > know that if they purchased a MF #1 repro I think I missed something while I was gone. I'm not very familiar with the MF line--what is a #1? Ed Bell ed.bell@c... Cincinnati Bell Information Systems Opinions expressed are my own and do not neccessarily reflect those of my employer. ---- Start of Message 15158 ---- From: John Hunt Date: 1997-03-14 23:13:00 Subject: Re: Damascus Steel Pual, You are absolutely correct. (See below) In the mid-1980's a couple of Egnlish gents rediscovered and patented the process for making 'true' Damascus steel, now referred to as wootz. This is documented in an issue of Scientific American of that time. The reputation that is has had and kept all of these years was precisely because the western smiths couldn't figure out how to forge the stuff with out it turning to mush and slumping off of the anvil. The english gents came to my school when I was getting my BSME and did a little lecture on the subject, which I attended. Very interesting. The thing that make these swords so wickedly sharp for hacking flesh is that this high carbon content formed little carbide grains. When you sharpen the blade the softer iron gets sharpened away leaving an edge composed largely of these carbide grains, which can be sharpened up very sharp. (No, it doesn't make good woodworking tools, I already checked.) Anyway, compared to the other steels of the time, this stuff was the best for hacking meat. -John- On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Paul A. Lalonde wrote: > Now here's a point of some more debate. Recent thinking has it that > the real, medieval, Damascus steel was not a product of forge > welding up billets from various different steels and irons. It may > have actually refered to a particular type of steel. The so-called > wootz process, developped in India some 1000 years ago, makes a steel > with an obsene amount of carbon (>4%) in it but without being brittle. > In particular this steel is worked at much lower temperatures, somewhere > around 800F - hardly hot enough to even glow. > > The process of making the steel involves dropping your iron bloom > in a sealed crucible along with lots of charcoal, then bringing it > up to smelting temperatures. Then the tricky part starts. The crucible > has to be cooled very slowly - 2 degrees per hour or so, over a period > of a couple of weeks. The net result is that much more carbon is > included than in the usual processes. If you heat your wootz steel > too much, it loses its nice properties,a nd you're left with a normal > chunk of steel. Tales have it that the steel was introduced to europe, > but that the smiths would not believe how cold it had to be worked, > ruining it, and causing the arabs to simply raise the price on finished > products. ---- Start of Message 15159 ---- From: Kenneth Stagg Date: 1997-03-14 23:21:00 Subject: Re: Bio-Kenneth Watkins Kenneth Watkins wrote: > I went to UT Austin for undergraduate and the UW in Seattle for > graduate work in Biochemistry. Kenneth, What do ya know; another Husky and with a classy first name to boot! Welcome to the participatory side of the porch. -Ken ---- Start of Message 15160 ---- From: Patrick White Date: 1997-03-15 00:09:00 Subject: Re: Glue and filling edge gaps > I started using rub joints instead. Now there's a technique I don't know.. can someone explain this one to me, please? Is it just: plane to close tolerances, put glue in joint, rub wood together to spread glue, let dry? Or am I totally off in the weeds here? -- thanks much, Pat White (work: patbob@s..., (503) 578-3463, fax: (503) 578-5797) Aloha, Oregon: USDA zone 8, Sunset zone 6 (or so they say) ---- Start of Message 15161 ---- From: J. D. Crutchfield Date: 1997-03-15 00:10:00 Subject: Re: Millers Falls still in business? I wrote the chamber of commerce in Millers Falls (or whatever county it's in) and got this response: > In 1990, Ohio Tools System of Richfield, Ohio purchased the entire >Millers Falls Tool line from Ingersoll-Rand. In 1995, the electrical >tools division was purchased by MBM Enterprises of Dover, Ohio. The >current addresses we have: > > Electrical----- > MBM Enterprises > 2344 State Route 516 > Dover OH 44622 > (330) 343-0557 (330) 343-0748 fax > Hand Tools ---- > Millers Falls/Letzfile > Attention: Patrick Ragland > 3929 Virginia Avenue > Cincinnati OH > (513) 271-3300 Haven't written MBM to see if the're still in the business. If anybody does, let me know. -- Best wishes, Jim Crutchfield Norfolk, Virginia http://vabch.com/mrcynick ---- Start of Message 15162 ---- From: Alan N. Graham Date: 1997-03-14 19:30:00 Subject: Re: How do you prevent glue splotches? On 14 Mar 97 at 11:49, Sam Peterson wrote: > Gentle Galoots, > I am getting ready to glue up a dovetailed toolchest and don't want > the excess glue to mess up the finish. The plans say to use > Waxilit. I have never heard of the stuff and don't see it in the > catalogs. How do other galoots prevent glue squeeze out from > messing up the finish? Apart from the obvious (using the right amount of glue, letting it semi-dry and then scraping it off) a trick I have used is to carefully tape the inside of a right angle joint. The idea is that any glue squeezed out on the inside corner will end up on the tape rather that the wood. I find it most difficult to remove glue remnants from inside corners. Try using painters tape, it leaves very little sticky residue and thus is easier to clean up to prevent any interference with the finish. I have heard that some people try the same thing using wax on the wood near the joints, making any glue squeeze-out easier to remove. FWIW Alan N. Graham ---- Start of Message 15163 ---- From: eric coyle Date: 1997-03-15 00:32:00 Subject: RE: Glue and filling edge gaps I WAS waiting for payday when >I could go out and buy pipe clamps. ;-_) > Now I'm sure we all agree that the maximum number of any type of clamps is an undefined number, but a recent experience with pipe-clamps has taught me that when purchasing (medium cost) pipe-clamps, buy twice as many as you need, as it's likely you're gonna find a number of them that don't screw smoothly, have botched threading, misaligned holes and any number of really glaring quality defects. If your lucky and get all good ones, then just take back the surplus .....whenever you get around to it. And the quality is getting worse.... Eric > ---- Start of Message 15164 ---- From: Scott Post Date: 1997-03-15 00:38:00 Subject: Re: How do you prevent glue splotches? Sam Peterson wrote: Gentle Galoots, I am getting ready to glue up a dovetailed toolchest and don't want the excess glue to mess up the finish. The plans say to use Waxilit. I have never heard of the stuff and don't see it in the catalogs. How do other galoots prevent glue squeeze out from messing up the finish? I recently started using a gap filling glue from Lee Valley. I think other places like Garrett Wade carry the same stuff under a different label. Anyway, it has a high solids content with a consistency like wet sand. The high solids content means that it won't sink into the grain of the wood or get smeared all over the place. When dry, the excess pops right off with a chisel and doesn't leave a residue that inhibits the finish. I'm really sold on the stuff. My only concern is how it will hold up long term. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who's been using this stuff for awhile. With dovetails I usually don't have a problem - my pins and tails usually protrude enough that I need to plane them flush anyhow, so I end up taking the excess glue off in the process. -- Scott Post spost@n... http://www.netusa1.net/~spost ---- Start of Message 15165 ---- From: Overmyer Date: 1997-03-15 00:38:00 Subject: Re: How do you prevent glue splotches? The small LN 97 is really useful at fixing the problems that slip by, especially for interior surfaces. I must say that I bought this plane for its sheer beauty, but it gets used on almost every project. And, as someone pointed out earlier, you'll have an easier time of it if you resist the temptation to 'wipe clean' the excess glue which just makes it harder to remove. ---- Start of Message 15166 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-15 00:58:00 Subject: Re: High Speed Steel > > . Is it true? Is HSS better? Didn't Cecil Pierce like it? > > Speaking strictly from experience my HSS turning tools will hold > and edge longer than my other chisels - but just as important for > me is the fact that they are much harder to burn when sharpening > on the grinder (something I tend to be very good at). > > Ron Hock has a web page discussing steel at: > > http://www.mcn.org/a/rhock/steelrap.htm It mentions what is probaly the most important quality in blades that are used for near final surface preparation (like smoothing plane irons) sharpenability - how sharp you can make a blade. If you want a near "glass like" finish on the wood you are planing you want a blade that is as sharp as possible. HSS, although more heat-resistant and longer lasting than high-carbon steel can't easily be made nearly as sharp. This is due to the grain size of the carbide particles in the steel. Blades that are more pure-carbide (such as "tungsten-carbide") are even harder and longer lasting than HSS blades, but can't be made nearly as sharp as HSS blades. You often find carbide blades used in the most demanding woodworking applications - where a lot of heat is generated and where you don't want to have to sharpen your blade frequently. In woodworking, carbide blades are sold for/used in tools such as el----ic routers, and jointers. I see also though that the people that make the small "Radi-plane" chamfering and rounding hand planes apparently use carbide blades in their product. To sumarize the two characteristics, sharpenability and how long an edgge will hold up ("edge retention") the materials stack up like this: Sharpenability Edge retention Best: 1 carbon-steel carbide 2 HSS HSS Worst: 3 carbide carbon-steel - Don P.S. I see they have ceramic knife blades now, where are the ceramic plane blades?? ---- Start of Message 15167 ---- From: Jerry Serviss Date: 1997-03-14 21:10:00 Subject: Re: Millers Falls in buisness? On 13 Mar 97 , Andrew Barss wrote: > > I dug out my Silvo Hardware catalog, which I reported earlier had > some "real" looking Miller's Falls tools. The catalog is 4 years > old, so no idea what the current story is, but here's the contact > info if you're interested: > > Silvo Hardware > 3201 Tollview Drive > Rolling Meadows, IL 60008 > 1-800-331-1261 > Hey ! Wait a darn minute. That address is right around the corner from me. I checked Ameritech directory assistance and there is no listing for them in Rolling Meadows. Then I tried the 800 number and it answered as Silvo Home Hardware. They also gave a non 800 number in the area. I will give it a shot on Monday and see what turns up. -- Jerry Serviss You can never own too many tools ! ---- Start of Message 15168 ---- From: Jerry Serviss Date: 1997-03-14 21:10:00 Subject: Re: topic censorship (Was Pinewood Derby) On 13 Mar 97 , Michael D. Sullivan wrote: > While everyone has the right to express an opinion about the > germaneness of a given thread by private email or on the list, > nobody but the list-moms has the right to tell someone to cut off a > discussion. Of course Michael is correct on this point. It was not my intention to deprive anyone of the right to send private email. > And while an opinion and suggestion by private email > may be appropriate if a given thread is indisputably off-topic > (e.g., "which tablesaw is best?") and may cause the participants to > exercise better judgement, where there is clearly some connection > with old or new hand tools a question is better put to the list for > discussion, so the list can determine whether there is a consensus > that the thread should be dropped or not. This is an excellent articulation of what I was trying to say. Clearly stated and to the point. He must be a lawyer. :) -- Jerry Serviss You can never own too many tools ! ---- Start of Message 15169 ---- From: David Tardiff Date: 1997-03-15 03:31:00 Subject: BIG Wood, Lumbermen needed... Such good timing, following all these 'bigger is better' workbench and lumbermen discussions... Friends & relatives in western Massachusetts have just taken down some LARGE sugar maples, including one whose rings tallied at 189. My brother-in-law tells me the butt (lower) log from this one is sound, over 4 feet in diameter, and about 10 feet long. Of course, there may be ancient sugar taps in there somewhere. The house owners would like to keep some of the lumber for sentimental reasons, and of course I've got visions of wonderfully massive workbench slabs in my future. The problem is...even my brother-in-law, a semi-pro woodcutter, for both firewood and lumber (used to own a skidder, still has a dozer), can't find anyone who can deal with this log. The remaining local mills can't cut anything that big, and probably wouldn't want to risk it with likely metal inclusions, it being a yard tree. Neither would I, with a circular saw mill. He hasn't found anyone with a large-enough bandsaw mill. He's asked someone with a chainsaw mill, but it's probably not big enough, and the guy's skeptical, quoted something like 1 hour for a 10' cut in pine, never mind rock maple. If nothing can be done with it, he'll probably shorten it enough to move (dozer, I expect) and drop it in a ravine somewhere, since he cuts wood for a living, not a hobby, and he says he could do 5 times as much from 'normal' trees in the same amount of time needed to deal with the monster. So - anyone have any contacts able to handle logs that size, in that region? Any idea of galootish techniques for dealing with it? If it was smaller and oak or ash, I'd try to split it a-la-Roy Underhill, but I'm skeptical of splitting that much maple, likely to be wilder grain. Anyone have a longish 2-man ripsaw? A pitsaw would require a pit, after all...I'm open to all ideas, crazy or not. My best plan is to quarter it somehow and then slab each quarter out to 4 to 6 inches, along with some smaller stuff. Just the quartering would get it small enough to deal with normally. Suggestions? David W. Tardiff tardiff@m... ---- Start of Message 15170 ---- From: Jeff Gorman Date: 1997-03-14 20:36:00 Subject: Re: BIO-Aaron Ionta Richard Wilson wrote: ~ New born galoot Aaron Ionta exposes his chest (toolchest) ~ >1 Record Technical Plane - ~ Hey, this here galoot has a *technical* plane - Now you'll have to get a ~ shooting board and donkeys ear made.... This is a plane originally intended for school use. It is 13" long, with a reinforced sole and an extended wing with its crest parallel to the sole that seems to look a bit like those bedrock thingies that some people go on about. 8-). The handle screws into a tapped hole going into the frog support bosses. I don't think it was a commercial success. But has Aaron's got a handle? Record's Planecraft book shows one. It's shape is misleading since one would get the idea that for use on a shooting board, one just grabbed the entire handle and tried to use it that way. I think this must have been the original intention of the genius (sarky, 8-)) who thought this up, but wiser counsel might have eventually gained because in the sixth impression, 1954, page 39, they show it used by a schoolboy with the thumb hooked round the base of the handle, the index finger on the wing and the remaining fingers covering the blade. This makes sense, since to use a plane on a shooting board some nifty wrist action is needed to obtain the necessary scooping action that I doubt could be effectively applied from a grip on a small diameter round handle, rather like a file handle. Incidentally, in this position it is rather easy to jam the top of the thumb rather vigorously against the stop. How do I know? Well I don't have a handle but managed to fit a salvaged front knob instead (the thread is a wierd specification). That's how I found out! As a matter of interest, has anybody got an earlier version of Planecraft (first published 1934) with perhaps a different illustration? It would be interesting to know why the hand was thus shaped. -- Jeff Gorman - West Yorkshire jeff@m... ---- Start of Message 15171 ---- From: John Hunt Date: 1997-03-15 05:27:00 Subject: Re: topic censorship (Was Pinewood Derby) On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Jerry Serviss wrote: > Clearly stated and to the point. He must be a lawyer. :) Ummmmm, that is not exactly what lawyers are best known for........ -John- (The son of a lawyer.) ---- Start of Message 15172 ---- From: Michael D. Sullivan Date: 1997-03-15 06:14:00 Subject: Re: topic censorship (Was Pinewood Derby) On Fri, 14 Mar 1997 21:10:03 +0000, Jerry Serviss wrote: >This is an excellent articulation of what I was trying to say. >Clearly stated and to the point. He must be a lawyer. :) How'd ya know? Read the header? -- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA -- Email: mds@a..., avogadro@w... ---- Start of Message 15173 ---- From: Matt Prusik Date: 1997-03-15 05:40:00 Subject: Re: BIG Wood, Lumbermen needed... Dave: I would try to get a hold of someone with a WOODMIZER mill and see if that individual could help. To find WOODMIZER equipped people, use your search engine for woodmizer and go to the manufacturer's page. You should be able to call or e-mail them and ask for names and phone numbers of people in your area with a mill. As an aside, I have a friend who routinely turns pens and other articles out of wood for sentimental reasons. His name is Bill Grumbine and you can see his page and e-mail him from http://wonderfulwood.com/ Best of luck and save me one plank! Matt ---- Start of Message 15174 ---- From: SBMarcus Date: 1997-03-15 06:22:00 Subject: Re: High Speed Steel ---------- > From: Larry McVoy lm@n... > To: oldtools@l... > Subject: High Speed Steel > . Is it true? Is HSS better? Didn't Cecil Pierce like it? > . Does LN use HSS for his blades? > . Are Hock blades HSS? > . If Hock blades are not HSS and people think HSS is better, > when is Ron going to offer HSS blades? I do a fair amount of spindle turning and own several sets of lathe tools. I've decided from experience just what the other posters have suggested. My HSS tools keep their edge much better, and can be sharpened quickly on the wheel without much fear of burning the edge. But they don't sharpen to a super-keen edge. Making the best of both worlds, I use the HSS tools for roughing out and the carbon steel for final detail work. I don't think plane irons or chisels produced from HSS would be much use to a serious Galoot. I don't know if Cecil liked HSS but he sure didn't use it for making plane irons or chisels. Remember, he was no pure Galoot. I attended the auction of his stuff last summer. He owned at least five each of every portable and stationary p-r tool ever invented. He adapted almost every one of them for some special purpose, especially having to do with flyrod making and, probably, he used HSS for tooling for his metal lathes and shaper bits. All his planes had recycled "Cast Steel" irons. All the shop-made edge tools I saw he made from old files, just like the rest of us do. BTW. I wasn't around the porch back then, but if there wasn't a post about the auction let me know and I'll do my best, including a couple of gloats (like how I ended up buying his planemaking floats for less than a buck a piece.) Bruce ---- Start of Message 15175 ---- From: SBMarcus Date: 1997-03-15 06:55:00 Subject: Farming out moldings: was Galoot progress... > >now i'm probably going to put my foot in my mouth: > >i wouldn't be suprised if in the nineteenth century there were people > >who specialised in making mouldings, either with machines or with > >massive moulding planes. >Remove the foot. From reading Christies auction catalogs, I've learned >that in the 18th & 19th centuries, furniture making was highly >specialized. High end furniture makers would make the object itself, >then send it out for the carvings to a carving shop. The buyer would >then receive bills for both the piece and the carving. I think Justin was partially right. In the late 18th and early 19th centuries carving was often sub-contracted out, at least in the major cities, and inlays were often bought from specialist makers (often abroad). Windsor chairs, following the English tradition were often assembled and finished by the "chairmaker" from parts bought in bulk; the legs and other turnings from a turner, the spindles, which were shaved, not turned, from farmers who worked them off-season for a little extra beer money. Even the seat blanks and bent bows could be bought. This was even true in my town which had a population of about 1800 in 1800 (now shrunk to 550). We had a chair maker and a turner and surviving records show that they did this business, and also that the chairmaker bought spindles from several local farmers. However mouldings, for furniture use, as far as I have ever heard or read, were not farmed out in urban or rural practice. Although there were specialist journeymen who produced mouldings and other trim work for house finishing. They, alas, were replaced by millwork shops in the machine age. But even in the machine age furniture shops usually had their own shapers and/or moulding heads for planers and produced their own mouldings. Bruce ---- Start of Message 15176 ---- From: Bob A. Date: 1997-03-15 07:04:00 Subject: Is there an auction at Andy's this weekend? Does anyone know if there is an auction at Andy's this weekend? I think it was Paddy who mentioned to me he thought there was one this month. Does anyone know? TIA, Bob A. ---- Start of Message 15177 ---- From: J. Gunterman Date: 1997-03-15 12:45:00 Subject: Re: Walter's book At 7:36 AM +0930 3/14/97, Andy Wilkins wrote: >john gunterman has actually managed to get a copy. Yep! I did!!!! >- what's in it I hate to say it, but it has _everything_ or at least as close as it can come to having everything! >- how much it costs $32 for the big book, $12 for the pocket guide (or thereabouts) >- how long is the waiting list (in days, weeks, years??) I just walked into Andy's in Santa Monica, Ca USA and bought it. >- where do i order it from (remember i live in aussy so phone numbers >won't help me) try Direcctly John Walter Marietta Ohio 614 373 9973 L8r, John ---- Start of Message 15178 ---- From: Todd Kissam Date: 1997-03-15 13:31:00 Subject: Re: BIG Wood, Lumbermen needed... At 10:31 PM 3/14/97 -0500, you wrote: some snip >Friends & relatives in western Massachusetts have just taken down >some LARGE sugar maples, including one whose rings tallied at 189. >My brother-in-law tells me the butt (lower) log from this one is sound, >over 4 feet in diameter, and about 10 feet long. snip >So - anyone have any contacts able to handle logs that size, in that >region? Any idea of galootish techniques for dealing with it? Well this is not a galoot method - but go rent the biggest chainsaw you can find - if you already have access to one with a 24" bar or bigger, then spend 30 to $40 to buy a "rip" chain for it. And then rip into quarters - the simple "Haden" (spelling) guide would help you cut straight, but that would run you another $50 or so. Its going to take at least 1/2 hour a slice - jack up one end up a bit in the air so you are ripping downhill if you can. Then find someone with a bandsaw mill who will "quartersaw" it for you. If you are lucky you might find some figure at the base. Todd (Of course you could leave it for a few months to a year to get some spalting too.) ---- Start of Message 15179 ---- From: Kenneth Stagg Date: 1997-03-15 13:54:00 Subject: Re: BIG Wood, Lumbermen needed... David Tardiff wrote: > Friends & relatives in western Massachusetts have just taken down > some LARGE sugar maples, including one whose rings tallied at 189. > My brother-in-law tells me the butt (lower) log from this one is sound, > over 4 feet in diameter, and about 10 feet long. Of course, there may > be ancient sugar taps in there somewhere. The house owners would > like to keep some of the lumber for sentimental reasons, and of course > I've got visions of wonderfully massive workbench slabs in my future. ... > Anyone have a longish 2-man ripsaw? A pitsaw would require a pit, > after all...I'm open to all ideas, crazy or not. Now there's a GALOOT!! BTW, I thought that pit saws were sometimes used on logs that were just trussed up. That is you build a trestle/scaffold that holds one end (or, in this case, all) of the log up far enough that the pit man can work. Sounds like a lot of work, but it might well be worth it for wood like that. -Ken ---- Start of Message 15180 ---- From: Mike Davies Date: 1997-03-15 15:16:00 Subject: Toolbox bottoms (Ken Stagg writes) >I'm in the process of designing a fairly traditional tool chest (you >know, 3' long, 2' high, 2' wide, etc...) and am wondering how you all >would recommend attatching the bottom. >The three basic references that I have (Hasluck's 'The Handymans Book', >Tolpin's 'The Toolbox Book' and Jone's 'The Practicle Woodworker') all >state that the bottom was traditionally T&G nailed on from underneath. Mine's like this, except the boards are screwed on with brass flat-head screws, not nailed. Make's replacement a cinch a hundred years from now, providing people that far in the future still have access to non-philips-head screws :^) - Mike Mike Davies St. Louis ---- Start of Message 15181 ---- From: Mike Davies Date: 1997-03-15 15:16:00 Subject: Holding power of nails (Bruce wrote) >....but the holding power of nails has twice decreased greatly over the last >two hundred years; first with the replacement of hand-forged nails by cut >nails in the early 19th cent., and again with the introduction of modern >wire nails about 50 years later. This is something I've often heard repeated, but I must say it's not born out by my own experience. I've pulled a lot of 19th century cut nails, and have found that their holding power is practically worthless compared to modern wire nails. Due to their wedge shape, once you've shifted them out a little, they just let go. In contrast, wire nails resist pulling the entire length of their shank. Have others noticed this too? - Mike Mike Davies St. Louis ---- Start of Message 15182 ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 1997-03-15 15:56:00 Subject: Re: Farming out moldings: was Galoot progress... At 01:55 AM 3/15/97 -0500, SBMarcus wrote: > >However mouldings, for furniture use, as far as I have ever heard or read, >were not farmed out in urban or rural practice. Although there were >specialist journeymen who produced mouldings and other trim work for house >finishing. They, alas, were replaced by millwork shops in the machine age. >But even in the machine age furniture shops usually had their own shapers >and/or moulding heads for planers and produced their own mouldings. > Sash making was another specialty trade. The thing to remember is that most of these guys outside of the major metropolitan areas, had their specialty, but they did whatever they needed to survive. Most farmed, many worked as carpenters when there was work to be had, etc. Unfortunately we take so much of the facets of daily living for granted, that it seems impossible to comprehend the lifestyle of those days. Other specialties including wainwright (wagon maker), wheelwright, (wheel maker), bodger (rural English turners), and much more. If your shoes wore out, you either fixed them yourself or had someone fix them for you. (I'm amazed at the amount of cobblers stuff that keeps showing up around here at farm sales, I think, at least in these parts, people were fixing their own shoes a lot longer that we think). Plus to, horse drawn farm equipment was used in a lot of places up until WWII or thereafter, and (and this is outside the Amish and Mennonite communities), requiring the skills to repair harness. We are so hung up on time, most people until after the Civil War, were still keeping time by the sun. The good old days............were they? (I have my answer) Tony ___________________________________________________________________ One is an interest Two is a collection Three is an obsession ___________________________________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 15183 ---- From: J. Gunterman Date: 1997-03-15 15:25:00 Subject: RE: MF - now that we've found it, what do we do with it? At 9:06 AM -0800 3/14/97, scot.e.echols@e... wrote: >Ed Wrote... >>I think the only prudent thing to do is to take control of the site >>until they agree to restore this sacred shrine to it's original >>state. This will pave the way for a march on Disston and, finally, >>the grand daddy of them all, the Stanley Works. > >Hey! A crusade! Now we have a use for all that Damascus steel! We can >stomp out age discrimination against old tools everywhere! Ahh Guy's.... I was born and grew up in New Britain..... even got a birt cert from NBGH to prove it ;-) anyway it used to be a respectable imigrant/factory town. however these days a posse of middle-to-old(er) aged galoots marching up Ellis St. carrying variose implements of destruction would not makle it past the Fafnir Bearing Plant before one of the many street gangs start rolling our way. I can just see the headlines in the New Britain Herald.... L8r John. Just say, it's is a sad thing indeed to see the apartment that my Uncle was litterally born in is now a crack house. ---- Start of Message 15184 ---- From: Bruce & Debra Kantelis Date: 1997-03-15 16:34:00 Subject: Flooring Finish Does anyone know what common finishes were used on wood floors circa 1900-1930. Going to re-do some cypress floors built in 1910 and would like to add another room as well. These are flitch cut 4" boards in 10-20' lengths. I can get the cypress from a local mill for the new room and want a consistant look. Current finish is not a glossy surface finish but looks similar o may favorite furniture finish of linseed/varnish/turps. An in the wood finsh with a slight build. Regards, Bruce ---- Start of Message 15185 ---- From: Matt Prusik Date: 1997-03-17 05:52:00 Subject: Re: How do you prevent glue splotches? Sam: My suggestion would be to dry fit the parts before gluing, and apply a light coat of paste wax outside of the joint areas. The glue will not stick to the wax, and you simply wipe off any excess glue residue. Once the glue sets,you can remove the wax by a finish sanding or scraping, or from those areas where you can't sand or scrape, a quick wash with mineral spirits or naphtha will do the trick! I give credit to this logic and advice to Warren Tucker of The Frameworks in Wilmington, NC. Matt ---- Start of Message 15186 ---- From: J. D. Crutchfield Date: 1997-03-17 04:38:00 Subject: Bio of Jim Crutchfield Bio of Jim Crutchfield I live in Norfolk, Virginia, where I've been for almost ten years. I was born in Fishersville, in the Shenandoah Valley, and grew up in Newport News, across the water from Norfolk. I went to college at the University of Rochester, New York, washed dishes for a year in Richmond (at the Texas-Wisconsin Border Cafe, still the best chili I've ever eaten), then went to law school at Washington & Lee University in Lexington, Va. I've practised law since the fall of 1987, though right now I'm only doing that part-time. Most of my practice has been defending people and companies that get sued, though I've done some criminal defense work and a little bit of plaintiff's work. I'm also a musician and I play in the folk band "Dramtreeo", as well as an alternative rock duo called "Things in Action". You might have heard of Dramtreeo. The band's been around about sixteen years, though I only joined about four and a half years ago. We have four albums out so far, of which I'm only on the fourth one, "Storm". I've always loved working with my hands and lurking in hardware stores, but I never did any real woodworking until fairly recently. And I have yet to really make anything besides a bench hook and a couple of other simple projects. I've been assembling tools, though, and am getting ready to build my first workbench. Reading Underhill's "Woodwright" books turned me into a galoot, I guess; though I read Eric Sloan's books when I was in high school, and have always had fantasies of living off the land and doing everything by hand. That didn't stop me from buying some power tools (and I'll confess, it would be hard for me to give up my Makita cordless drill); but I've long since gotten pretty tired of Norm's "I'll just put this through my thickness planer, then cut the mortices with my hollow chisel morticer," etc. I'm just waiting for Norm to get hold of a complete furniture-making machine, so he never has to touch the wood with his hands at all. -- Best wishes, Jim Crutchfield Norfolk, Virginia http://vabch.com/mrcynick ---- Start of Message 15187 ---- From: Bill Adams Date: 1997-03-17 01:12:00 Subject: Disston Gloat & a ? Hi All, I bought my first Diston Friday! It's a D20. according to Ralph Brendler's on line Disston catalog. (Thanks Ralph.) It was hanging in an antique mall with several other saws of questionable quality, there was no price on it so I asked the mall manager "how much?" her reply was "Oh, the same as those others $4.95". :) :) :) I some how managed to control my screams of joy. I think it will make a great user, about half of the embossed logo is still present (Haven't started cleaning it yet) the handle is whole, uncracked and about 50% of the original finish is still there. The button says Disston U.S.A. around a circle that looks like rope, inside is a Y with what looks like two fish on either side of the Y. (maybe it's a balance scale weighing two fish) Screws are nickel plated brass. Can anyone tell me it's approx age or anything from my amateur discription? Now another question. I also bought a rip saw with a button that said "Warrented Superior" who made this? Is it junk? Can I sell it and retire? L8tre Bill Fumbles with tools ---- Start of Message 15188 ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1997-03-16 19:22:00 Subject: Re: Glue and filling edge gaps ** Reply to note from patbob@s... Fri, 14 Mar 1997 16:09:27 -0800 (PST) > > Now there's a technique I don't know.. can someone explain this one to > me, please? > > Is it just: plane to close tolerances, put glue in joint, rub wood > together to spread glue, let dry? Or am I totally off in the weeds here? > Richard Wilson (I think) described it much better than I will but here goes. It started with hide glue which really starts to grab as it cools. You coat both sides of the joint with glue put them together in alignment and then move one piece with respect to the other until the glue grabe. One last chance to aliqn them (I hope) and then let it set. No clamps are required and there is no glue starvation since you are removing excess glue by rubbing but not forcing it out of the joint. Obviously the tighter fitting the pieces the better the joint. I read somewhere that the goal was to have two close fitting smooth pieces of wood to join together. The glue is used to enhance molecular attraction so that there is only a small amount of glue in the joint. I have edge joined 6' oak 4/4 boards and have been very upset with having less than 1/64" gap. If I can see light in the joint I hate it although even anal retentives can stand a few mils. Remember 1/64" is about .015". This kind of fit is attainable with hand planes but I sure wouldn't want to do it without my #8. I use my #7 to get close but it is the #8 that finishes the job. A good straightedge is valuable but you can use the two boards together to clean up the joint. Just set one on top of the other and look for the big gaps. That will point to the high spots. Mark the high spots on the edge of one board and plane them off. It should be fairly obvious which board is the offender. Keep this up until you get the gap below 1/32" or 1/64" for the anal retentive. At the same time the edges must be kept square to the face (this is where edge planing both simultaneously pays off). If the edges aren't square to the face when you join them you will have a cupped surface. This is a lot more than I intended to write. ernie The Arizona tool sink, IT #22 ---- Start of Message 15189 ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1997-03-16 19:22:00 Subject: Re: Glue and filling edge gaps ** Reply to note from gph@h... Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:11:16 -0800 > > Question for the porch: Are rub-jointed panels as strong as panels > that have been clamped? > If you have no gap the answer is yes, maybe stronger. No glue starvation. ernie The Arizona tool sink, IT #22 ---- Start of Message 15190 ---- From: Erwin L Schaffer Date: 1997-03-16 20:05:00 Subject: Re:Walter's Book- digest 1278 John's address is : John Walter, 208 Front Street, Marietta, Ohio, 45750, U.S.A. Erv Schaffer (ErvSaws) ---- Start of Message 15191 ---- From: J. Gunterman Date: 1997-03-17 00:53:00 Subject: G_P Anybody else finished? Well I've had my tapble done for quite a while now. Anybody else finished? Anybody care to share a photo of your table on the Web? L8r, John ---- Start of Message 15192 ---- From: Erwin L Schaffer Date: 1997-03-16 20:05:00 Subject: Re:Holding Power of Nails-digest 1278 The U.S. Forest Products Laboratory in Madison Wisconsin has done a tremendous amount of work (as well as has Virginia Tech--E.G.Stern) on the holding power of nails. Until recently however, holding power was defined only for nail holding resistance when the load is "pushing" against the side of the nail--as in a lap joint application. Withdrawal strength (withdrawal holding strength) has only recently been looked at, because in structural applications designers would avoid placing nails in a withdrawal load in structural elements, or would assign "no strength" to them if used this way. As you would surmise, lateral strength of nails,bolts, and many other connectors in wood were to accomodate loads perpendicular to the driven nail. The "Wood Handbook"available from the U.S. Government Printing Office covers "lateral"holding power of nails and screws well. I'd have to "dig out" the names and where one can get info on "withdrawal" holding power of nails if that is what is desired. I know it's available. Wood density is the biggest factor governing lateral resistance of nails for given nail diameter and length. The higher the wood density--the higher the lateral strength for given size nail. Erv Schaffer (ErvSaws) ---- Start of Message 15193 ---- From: Matt Prusik Date: 1997-03-17 05:57:00 Subject: Re: topic censorship (Was Pinewood Derby) Michael D. Sullivan wrote: > > On Fri, 14 Mar 1997 21:10:03 +0000, Jerry Serviss wrote: > > >This is an excellent articulation of what I was trying to say. > >Clearly stated and to the point. He must be a lawyer. :) > > How'd ya know? Read the header? Mike: NEVER insult a potential client . Matt -- spoken like a TRUE lawyer ! ---- Start of Message 15194 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-16 23:15:00 Subject: Re: Holding power of nails Responding to Bruce, Mike wrote: >>....but the holding power of nails has twice decreased greatly over the last >>two hundred years; first with the replacement of hand-forged nails by cut >>nails in the early 19th cent., and again with the introduction of modern >>wire nails about 50 years later. > > This is something I've often heard repeated, but I must say it's not >born out by my own experience. I've pulled a lot of 19th century cut nails, >and have found that their holding power is practically worthless compared to >modern wire nails. I can't say I agree. I've been pulling up flooring for the last month that had wire nails. One POP and I can pull them with my fingers. (exageration). But usually, I'm fighting forged nails. They won't POP. If they budge, they still won't let go. (Roger B knows how the problem is handled - it takes an old tool) BUT, it also _might_ be the amount of corrosion involved...shrinkage of the wood involved...? Gene ---- Start of Message 15195 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-16 22:08:00 Subject: Re: Glue and filling edge gaps It's a really laidback end of weekend here, so I'll throw in my opinion in response to Pat W.'s response to another. >> I started using rub joints instead. > > Now there's a technique I don't know.. can someone explain this one to >me, please? > > Is it just: plane to close tolerances, put glue in joint, rub wood >together to spread glue, let dry? Or am I totally off in the weeds here? Through no fault of your own, all of Portland is off in the weeds IMO :^). Yikes now I've offended about five others on the porch and my sons as well. Rubbed glue joints refers to the use of hot hide glue, but done as described above. A few rubs and the glue begins to grab. A final rub and it's all over, hopefully perfectly aligned. Let it set, no clamps or crimps needed. Seriously though, for yellow glue, the spreading should be done without the need for rubbing. There is plenty of time to work. I use a flexible blade thing that was probably intended for putting icing on cakes. After, clamps and some time are needed. Gene (too obnoxious a person to appologize to my sometimes home city) ---- Start of Message 15196 ---- From: Ron Hock Date: 1997-03-16 21:52:00 Subject: Re: High Speed Steel At 10:22 AM 3/14/97 -0800, you wrote: >I was talking to a turning (lathe) guy recently and he swore by HSS. >Claimed it held an edge longr than anything else and that you had to >work much harder to draw the temper when grinding. So a couple of >questions: > > . Is it true? Is HSS better? Didn't Cecil Pierce like it? Yes, better for high-speed applications where the edge may be subjected to high-heat (such as turning. In fact, HSS, IMO would be required for powered lathe-turning). I don't know about Cecil... > . Does LN use HSS for his blades? No. > . Are Hock blades HSS? No. > . If Hock blades are not HSS and people think HSS is better, > when is Ron going to offer HSS blades? I've not yet met _anyone_ who thinks HSS is better for hand tools than plain old high-carbon steel. So why pay more for a blade that is a bear to sharpen and won't ever get as sharp. Oh, it'll hold a mediocre edge longer, but you'll never get it nearly as Scary Sharp. The steel alloy (which is which, which is better for what, and why) thread has been chugging along around here since the inception of this list (sort of "As the Alloy Turns"). Scope out the archive for The Truth. Ron Ron Hock http://www.mcn.org/a/rhock/hockhome.htm Hock Handmade Knives 16650 Mitchell Creek Drive Fort Bragg, CA 95437 (707) 964-2782 fax (707) 964-7816 ---- Start of Message 15197 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-16 17:29:00 Subject: Harvey Bechtel mystery GG's: Last week I listed some tools I was thinking of buying as a lot. One was a Harvey Bechtel router very much like a Stanley 71 1/2 or it's older closed throat brother. I got several replies saying Harvey Bechtel wasn't in the books. I was back at the seller's shop Saturday, and looked it over up-close-and-personal. It still looked prettier than the Stanley, but something didn't seem right... Well, thanks to a comment from Jim Spallin that got burried in my subconscious last week, it finally hit me. Out of this batch of one man's tools, and the box, this was one of the only ones without his initials on it somewhere. HLB everywhere. HLB... Harvey Bechtel! TaDa! The guy was a patternmaker. I checked the steel rules closer, and sure enough, they're shrink rules. So it's a one of a kind made by-and-for Harvey. And so is a little mini-router about 3" wide. The full size one has his name neatly laid out in a semicircle across the base. Probably would have been obvious to more experienced galoots. What didn't seem right was, although the main casting was iron, the clamp ring that holds the cutter was bronze or brass, but an exact match of the Stanley. The screws through the knobs are flatheads - really should have been oval heads. Also there is a black painted ring at the base of the knobs that isn't as neatly done as I thought at first. It was done by hand. Live and learn, I said to myself...glad I didn't do that impulse buy last weekend, I said to myself, ...and then I bought it. Gene I've always respected patternmakers, and been amazed at the idle time they seem to have on the job.. ---- Start of Message 15198 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1997-03-16 12:26:00 Subject: H.CHAPIN adjustable level Yesterday I came across (and didn't buy) a H.CHAPIN/UNION FACTORY level, exactly like the one on page 347 of Roberts' "Wooden Planes in 19th Century America, vol II". The #306 at the bottom of fig 62. What made me hesitate was the condition of the dial for the adjustable vial. It was cardboard. The graduations were printed on the dial and looked original (but faint). Was there something on top of the cardboard to protect it ? Like a piece of glass or something ? Otherwise the level was in pretty good shape, all vials intact. Paul P Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 15199 ---- From: John Hunt Date: 1997-03-16 07:46:00 Subject: Re: Farming out moldings: was Galoot progress... On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Anthony Seo wrote: > If your shoes wore out, you either fixed them yourself or had someone fix > them for you. (I'm amazed at the amount of cobblers stuff that keeps > showing up around here at farm sales, I think, at least in these parts, > people were fixing their own shoes a lot longer that we think). There is a small set of cobblers tools in my family that was definitely in use during the depression and perhaps as late as WWII. -John- ---- Start of Message 15200 ---- From: Ernie Fisch Date: 1997-03-15 19:29:00 Subject: Re: Holding power of nails ** Reply to note from msdavi@w... Sat, 15 Mar 1997 15:16:55 +0000 > > little, they just let go. In contrast, wire nails resist pulling the entire > length of their shank. Have others noticed this too? > Yes, especially after they have been in a fence for 36 years. ernie The Arizona tool sink, IT #22 ---- Start of Message 15201 ---- From: Mack McKinney Date: 1997-03-16 01:00:00 Subject: Sweet What?! GG's I was perusing my copy of _The Complete Woodworker_ (gloat) by Bernard E. Jones. On page 38 he makes a reference to "sweet oil" which he explicitly notes as not linseed oil. Can anyone out there in Galootdom enlighten me on what sweet oil is? Also, someone tell me whether I should gloat or not on this next one. SWMBO, the little apprentice and I went "antiquing" today for the first time. Antiques have hitherto been those wonderful things we would love to have but couldn't even afford to look at. That's still true, except for the handtools. Our little Central Kentucky town has three "antique malls" all within the space of a 1/4 mile, so we decided to be choosy, and hit all three. First stop bagged a Yankee 1530A eggbeater drill with Yankee's 5-position ratcheting mechanism. I'm not sure how useful a ratchet is going to be on an eggbeater, but it was $14.00, the single speed Stanley was $15.00, and the half-dozon nameless (and smaller) drills were $10.00. On the same wall hung a Millers Falls dual-speed breast drill for $50.00. I'm thinking that was a bit steep, and it is still hanging there. Second place netted a couple of molding planes, a matched set of (please correct my nomenclature) 1" hollow and round marked "A. Harris, Cinncinnati, O". Do you reckon that this was the maker, or owner? Anyway, $30.00 for the pair, not earth-shattering, but I could have done worse. The third place didn't have any tools, but it did have a pine desk that someone had done a crappy job of imitating a milk-paint finish on. It had a fiberboard back held on with bright, shiny _staples_, and the bit of exposed pine that I saw was as white as my daughter's behind. Also had a box that had obviously been poorly slapped together from pine scraps with a half-lid front and was being passed off as an "antique toolbox" with a price tag of $45. Yeah, right. We got out of there so fast the guy behind the counter raised his eyebrows -- sorry about his luck. All in all, not a day to set the world on fire from, but not a bad day for the first time out. Next, we'll work up our nerve and hit a flea market. Mack Just say(tm), this stuff could become intoxicating. -- Mack McKinney Virtual Library Research and Design B.L. Fisher Library - Asbury Theological Seminary 606.858.2355 ---- Start of Message 15202 ---- From: Scott Post Date: 1997-03-16 01:54:00 Subject: Lie-Nielsen #62 questions SWMBO has finally given me the go-ahead to get a Lie-Nielsen low angled jack plane. As I look through the various catalogs and the Lie-Nielsen home page, it appears that this thing doesn't come with a bronze casting. I could've sworn I've seen it in bronze in the past. Am I imagining this? I'm a bit concerned about getting it in cast iron for fear that it will have a propensity to crack at the corners of the mouth, much like low angled block planes. Is this fear unfounded? How did the original Stanley #62's hold up? Should I expect the Lie-Nielsen to hold up? -- Scott Post spost@n... http://www.netusa1.net/~spost ---- Start of Message 15203 ---- From: Joe Duclos Date: 1997-03-16 02:03:00 Subject: Hancock Weekend News Flash Roy Underhill has confirmed that he will(barring any unforseen circumstances) be taping his show at the Hancock Shaker Village Woodworking Weekend on June 14 & 15, 1997. If he has time away from the taping he will talk to visitors. He stressed that when they are taping, they must concentrate on getting it done, due to the high cost of production. But hopefully he will be able to give some time to the audience. I can tell you, after having talked to Roy on & off for the last few months, that he is one busy boy. One time when I called him he was ironing his shirts, another time I got him off his Nordic Track. What I really mean is that he has many committments & we are extremely fortunate to have snagged him. In addition, we are going to have a MWTCA toolswap on Sat, 6/14 at approx. 6 a.m. till the village opens at 9:30 a.m. We will have various craftspeople performing diverse techniques of woodworking. Rumor has it that the IT boys might be there to show us how it's done in regard to pit sawing & maybe even some sashmaking by the MofA. We are working on putting together an exhibit of the tools, in the Hancock collection, that the public never sees. These tools include several dozen planes made by only the few Shaker planemakers. There might even be some of the really *hot stuff* owned by none other than Squire Leach of New Ashby, whom, by the way, honored me with his presence at Hancock one fine day last week. He was there to help us evaluate our tools. He pointed out some pretty interesting pieces which raised the hair on my arms. I would like to thank Patrick publicly for coming by. I hope everyone can make it in June. It's going to be the 1st of many great ww weekends to come. Joe Duclos Resident Cabinetmaker Hancock Shaker Village Pittsfield, MA ---- Start of Message 15204 ---- From: Erwin L Schaffer Date: 1997-03-15 20:36:00 Subject: WTB-Gary Roberts Can't seem to reach Gary Roberts via private mail and desire to possibly buy an item in March 3, 1997 Old Tools Digest .Gary: Please contact me. Thanks. Erv Schaffer (ErvSaws) ---- Start of Message 15205 ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1997-03-16 01:14:00 Subject: Stanely Four Square? GG-- In the Walter Pocket Guide I recently picked up, there is a section on a line of Stanley tools called "Four Square," including a little bit of everything in the standard WW list, plus a pipe wrench, hatchet.... They all seem to have this neat logo, with, would you believe it, four little squares forming one bigger square. Was a line for beginners? A "boy's tool chest," or what? Any idea what period it was produced? Nothing to ID--just curious. Tom Holloway, who could probably answer the question himself if he had the Big Book, but he doesn't, so he can't. ---- Start of Message 15206 ---- From: Jerry Davis Date: 1997-03-15 19:39:00 Subject: Re: Farming out moldings: was Galoot progress... In 3.0.1.32.19970315105644.00885100@p..., on 03/15/97 at 10:56 AM, Anthony Seo tonyseo@p... said: >If your shoes wore out, you either fixed them yourself or had someone fix >them for you. (I'm amazed at the amount of cobblers stuff that keeps >showing up around here at farm sales, I think, at least in these parts, >people were fixing their own shoes a lot longer that we think). Plus to, This is my experience, as well. I grew up in rural Eastern Ky., my grandfather was self sufficient. Although he worked for the railroad, he farmed, had a blacksmith shop, did some sawmilling etc. We had one of those iron stands with a foot pattern on the top around while I was growing up. We never used it, but he obviously had. People like that didn't have things they didn't use. >horse drawn farm equipment was used in a lot of places up until WWII or >thereafter, and (and this is outside the Amish and Mennonite >communities), requiring the skills to repair harness. We would get one of my cousins to come up and plow our gardens with a mule until the mid seventies (this was great for me, because I got to *drive* down when I was 14-15 and get the plows and harness and he would ride the mule). This may seem backward but it was simple, effecient and we ate well. >We are so hung up on time, most people until after the Civil War, were >still keeping time by the sun. >The good old days............were they? (I have my answer) I'm the youngest of seven children, was born in 1960 and didn't have an indoor bathroom until I was thirteen. I like taking a shower every morning. :-) Jerry For the record, me and all my siblings graduated from UK; we ain't dumbass hillbillies. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- stampy@s... (Jerry Davis) Griffin, GA ----------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 15207 ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1997-03-16 00:50:00 Subject: Re: Walter's book At 7:45 AM -0500 3/15/97, J. Gunterman wrote: >At 7:36 AM +0930 3/14/97, Andy Wilkins wrote: And others have inquired..... I just got home from a medium-big antique show at the NY State Fairgrounds in Syracuse (no gloats--another story). At the one "book" booth there was a small stack of Walter's Pocket Guide, for $10 'Murican. I asked if they had the "Big Book" and was told that they can't get it because for now Walter is marketing them himself, and after he sells what he wants retail then he'll start wholesaling them out in chunks. Until then, this purveyer of books on collecting informed me, you can buy direct from John Walter hisself. To do that, contact (per the blurb inside the back of the copy I carried away with me): John Walter, PO Box 227, Marietta Ohio 45750 Phone (614) 373-9973 (If you're in Australia add USA to the address ;-) Hard cover is US$ 40 plus $3 shipping, and soft cover is $30 + $3 shipping. This is not a shill, I have no financial interest, this is not an endorsement, I *know* it's not FMM, etc., but as information related to old tools, the blurb might be of interest to the porch, FWIW: "John Walter's encyclopedic, 885 p. ANTIQUE AND COLLECTIBLE STANLEY TOOLS GUIDE TO IDENTITY AND VALUE discusses Stanley's [followed by long list of tool types]. Over 100 pp of Type Studies point out modifications and patent improvements critical for determining vintage and value. Inventors, patent dates and descriptions are noted, and each patent is described in detail. The Stanley history places the company's early products, founders and inventors into an historical context and will increase your appreciation and understanding of early American tool manufacture. Included is Stanley's beautiful advertising materials, company memorabilia, instructional publications and hundreds of additional tools atrracting increased collector interest. The 'User Info,' written by professional cabinetmakers, instructs on set up, proper use and sharpening and provides expert guidance for using vintage Stanley tools and traditional methods." So there you have it. Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 15208 ---- From: Roger Birkhead Date: 1997-03-16 00:29:00 Subject: Re: Holding power of nails > (Bruce wrote) > >....but the holding power of nails has twice decreased greatly over the last > >two hundred years; first with the replacement of hand-forged nails by cut > >nails in the early 19th cent., and again with the introduction of modern > >wire nails about 50 years later. Mike wrote: > In contrast, wire nails resist pulling the entire > length of their shank. Have others noticed this too? Don't forget that many modern wire nails are cement coated, so thier holding power is artificially enhanced. I still think square nails have a slight advantage due to thier cutting of the wood fibers and the wedging action this produces rather than pushing the fibers aside as a wire nail does essentially holding the shank by the "squeezing" action of the wood fibers. Roger ---- Start of Message 15209 ---- From: Don Bowen Date: 1997-03-15 23:03:00 Subject: Re: Is there an auction at Andy's this weekend? At 11:04 PM 3/14/97 -0800, Bob A. wrote: >Does anyone know if there is an auction at Andy's this weekend? I think >it was Paddy who mentioned to me he thought there was one this month. > >Does anyone know? They usually send out fliers before auctions and I did not receive one. I keep hoping there will be one soon. Don Bowen Senior Software Engineer Valley Center, CA Virtual Integrators donb@c... Don.bowen@i... http://www.users.cts.com/crash/d/donb http://www.integrators.com/bowens ---- Start of Message 15210 ---- From: Mark van Roojen Date: 1997-03-15 16:47:00 Subject: Dowel-maker Gloat and question Pickings have been pretty sparse this winter, though a good friend did send me a free Stanley #100 1/2 squirrel-tailed block plane with the curved bottom. That was both a nice plane and a touching gift that I had meant to gloat about but had not found the time. Today, though, I managed to snag a #77 doweling machine with the standard size 3/8 inch cutter head. Looks to be in nice shape. I got it for $30 at auction which I know is a steal (how much of one I don't know since I don't have the latest version of Walter's book). I have a question though. Were these only used to make dowel stock, or also to put round tenons on square sticks? Tomorrow morning it is off to the local MWTCA event in Papillion, one of Omaha's suburbs (or it will be soon enough with the rate of population growth for the metropolitan areas). Thanks for any replies. Mark Mark van Roojen P.O. Box 83836 Department of Philosophy Lincoln, NE 68501-3836 University of Nebraska (402) 438-3724 (h) 1010 Oldfather Hall (402) 472-2428 (w) Lincoln, NE 68588-0321 (402) 472-0626 (fax) ---- Start of Message 15211 ---- From: SBMarcus Date: 1997-03-15 22:23:00 Subject: Re: BIG Wood, Lumbermen needed... > Now there's a GALOOT!! BTW, I thought that pit saws were sometimes used > on logs that were just trussed up. That is you build a trestle/scaffold > that holds one end (or, in this case, all) of the log up far enough that > the pit man can work. Sounds like a lot of work, Man, it is! And I sure wouldn't want to learn that skill on a butt end that size. >but it might well be worth it for wood like that. A word of warning, if you are galoot enough to try it, the guy in the pit (or below, if using a platform) better find himself the biggest-brimmed hat he can find. Bruce ---- Start of Message 15212 ---- From: SBMarcus Date: 1997-03-15 22:33:00 Subject: Re: Holding power of nails > (Bruce wrote) > >....but the holding power of nails has twice decreased greatly over the last > >two hundred years; first with the replacement of hand-forged nails by cut > >nails in the early 19th cent., and again with the introduction of modern > >wire nails about 50 years later. (Mike wrote) > This is something I've often heard repeated, but I must say it's not > born out by my own experience. I've pulled a lot of 19th century cut nails, > and have found that their holding power is practically worthless compared to > modern wire nails. Due to their wedge shape, once you've shifted them out a > little, they just let go. In contrast, wire nails resist pulling the entire > length of their shank. Have others noticed this too? > > - Mike You're right, if you can get them started backing out, the do come easy. But that's a big if. It might depend upon where you are located. Here in Northern NE, with the extreme changes of heat and humidity, the constant expansion and contraction of wood around the soft iron and sharp edges of cut nails tends to deflect the shank out of true and dig in tenaciously around the edges. This is especially true with hardwoods. To give one, gratis, to the machine age, though; galvanized commons can sure do some holding. ---- Start of Message 15213 ---- From: SBMarcus Date: 1997-03-15 22:16:00 Subject: Re: Farming out moldings: was Galoot progress... Tony wrote > Sash making was another specialty trade. The thing to remember is that > most of these guys outside of the major metropolitan areas, had their > specialty, but they did whatever they needed to survive. Some of us still do, Last year, for instance, I went from painting the interior of an 18th Cent. cape so that the new paint would look 200 years old, to making a Federal shield back mahogany chair for which I also made all the inlays and did the carving, to repairing a bunch of 1950's maple schoolhouse chairs for a local library. Its a schizoid life. > Most farmed, many worked as carpenters when there was work to be had, etc. >Unfortunately we take so much of the facets of daily living for granted, that it seems > impossible to comprehend the lifestyle of those days. Its still very much like that for some around here, except you have to include among the talents of the modern rural dweller, electrician. auto mechanic, small-engine repairman, plumber, fireman, And many still practice some other traditional skills after their day gigs that Tony didn't mention; roofer, logger, sawyer, farm equipment repair, cider, wine and beer maker, slaughterer and butcher, truck gardener, fisherman, trapper, machinist (usually not to NASA standards), etc. > We are so hung up on time, most people until after the Civil War, were > still keeping time by the sun. > > The good old days............were they? (I have my answer) If making things with hand tools is a luxury that we can afford (for most of you in your "spare" time) What did those who were artisans in the good old days do for fun? Talking to the old-timers around here, back when there still were any, two things, depending on you inclination- Drink or go to church. Bruce ---- Start of Message 15214 ---- From: Patrick Olguin Date: 1997-03-15 22:18:00 Subject: Waaaaahooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!! Greetings Esteemed Porch-sitters, Just a little gloat, seeing as I've been off screwing around .... uh, working a lot, to say that I put the first coats of oil on the curly maple top of my son's table (finishing the top first, then assemble to skirt), and I must say that seeing that irridescent figure practically leap out of the top was almost like seeing the doves released at the Olympic games (save for the unlucky few that panicked, flew into the flames and became instant flying squab roasts - delivered to your door at no extra charge). Even my dear wife, who after watching me painstakingly plane out as much tearout as my little #3C could handle, began referring to the thinning top as "that Shoji screen", or "the wafer", was impressed. As for the legs and assembly... Draw-boring the tenons was a little dicey with such dry oak. I found that an offset of 1/64" was best, as any more aggressive, and I punched out the end of the tenon, or the peg split and mushroomed. I suppose a more tapered peg would have helped, but I didn't think of that until after they were all in. Also, a non-round peg (no, not square, but mebbe octagonal) would have helped, but I'm a tool-sharpener, not a woodworker!! And that brings me to my revelation... For the last two plus years, I've been obtaining, practicing-with, learning-about, reading-up-on (sorry, bh), sharpening and tuning my collection, errrr array of handtools. What this has been, in effect, is an apprenticeship, with many of the loonies, errrr veterans helping me out. After all this time, I know how to care for, and manipulate my tools without hardly thinking. Applying them all to a project brings in the other factors of planning, design and execution. I have a long way to go, but I'm having a helluva good time getting there. Paddy p.s. Still not too late for all you amateur video artists to submit a shop tour to me. The ones I've seen are wonderful, but I need more!!! p.p.s The blue Galoot caps are due to me in two weeks (Arrgh!!!), which means you patient people won't have 'em in time for the Easter egg hunt. I'm still hoping to have them by baseball's opening day! ---- Start of Message 15215 ---- From: Phil Hopkins Date: 1997-03-15 22:11:00 Subject: Kelly's Cigar -- Unabashed Shill Howdy, GG's all. Well, I got home this pm from helping another local galoot gather a little local mesquite, osage, and a very nice little chunk of Texas Walnut, and guess what was waiting for me at the ol' mailbox as a reward for my good samaritanship. (Actually, I'm expecting a little of that walnut :-} ) It was none other than my very own MF#1 ceegar spokeshave replica from Tim Kelly and his Kelly Toolworks. What a beaut! I'm sure most of you folks remember several other galoots waxing poetic about this little hummer in the recent past. That's what gave me the itch to order one my own self. Well, I'm sure tickled I did. We all know how picky I am when it comes to tools (since I refer to the fact on alternate posts). This little shave is a jewel, and is very much a bargain to boot. It is the best made, best performing new-old tool I've come across (I don't have an IT yet, so I can't include them -- I'm being patient, really I am -- but I have a fair share of other offerings). I recommend you galoots that haven't checked into these to give ol' Tim a call. I also recommend the walnut handles in the slightly-longer-than-original length. I rushed right out to the sho...er....balcony to give 'er a try and I now have a new favorite spokeshave, which is saying something, since I have a number of nice old wooden spokeshaves and a very nice old hollow-gull-wing-iron contraption that I'm very fond of. But this little hummer is a sweetie. (Okay, I'll kill all the technical talk) Phil Who isn't in any way a paid representative for Tim or his wife Kristen, despite just having played one on the list, but who is definitely getting his name on the waiting list for the upcoming #164 replica. ---- Start of Message 15216 ---- From: Jeff Gorman Date: 1997-03-15 07:02:00 Subject: Re: High Speed Steel Don wrote: ~ .................................... If you want a near ~ "glass like" finish on the wood you are planing you want a blade that ~ is as sharp as possible. HSS, although more heat-resistant and longer ~ lasting than high-carbon steel can't easily be made nearly as sharp. ~ This is due to the grain size of the carbide particles in the steel. ~ Blades that are more pure-carbide (such as "tungsten-carbide") are ~ even harder and longer lasting than HSS blades, but can't be made nearly ~ as sharp as HSS blades. It seems to me that the snag is that even the most sharpenable blade retains a perfect edge for only a relatively short time. For most practical purposes it can be the deteriorating quality of surface (ie the nature of the striations ('signatures')) that makes one resharpen before the plane can no longer be comfortably pushed, hence the profile of the edge as it breaks down can be as important as sharpenability. >From what I have read, it appears that 'pure-carbide' is best in this respect, but hardly practicable for hand plane blades. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman - West Yorkshire jeff@m... ---- Start of Message 15217 ---- From: Bill Adams Date: 1997-03-15 14:33:00 Subject: Re: Glue and filling edge gaps scot.e.echols@e... wrote: > > Paul wrote... > > > I had a major epiphany a while back when I *stopped* clamping > > panels. > > > > I started using rub joints instead. > > > > This is not the first time I have heard of "rub jointing", but I have no > idea what it is or how to do it. I am getting ready to start jointing > my bench top and this sounds interesting. I WAS waiting for payday when > I could go out and buy pipe clamps. ;-_) > > What the heck are rub joints and how do you (I) do them? Is there a FAQ > that I've missed somewhere? Please help. > > Thanks > Scot > > Rub jointing is a method of edge gluing boards, I've used it, it works, but the project I used it on is only about a year old. (Will it still be together 40 yrs from now?) First joint the boards very straight and smooth. (Check the boards against each other they MUST be light tight!!!) Spread your glue on both boards. Press them together, rub back and forth while pushing them together, align them. They will hold together! Lean them up against the wall to dry. L8tre Bill Fumbbles with tools ---- Start of Message 15218 ---- From: Bill Adams Date: 1997-03-15 15:15:00 Subject: Re: Web Sites Carl Muhlhausen wrote: > > GGs, > > I think Richard Wilson recently suggested that we > somehow get pictures of projects and tools from > various Galoots on to the Web to enhance the > multmedia aspect of the porch. > > A coworker put me on to the site "http://www.geocities.com > which offers free home page storage for non-commercial use. > > I've set up my own home page there and it's a pretty slick > operation (geocities, although I'm rather proud of my site too.) > > To get to my site directly go to: http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/2790 > where I'm known as "harvwoodwrks". (ledzep was taken) > I'm "across the street" from Brenda the heterosexual male crossdresser. > Greetings Led, Great minds truly must work on the same frequency! I started my Geocities homepage earlier this week.I'm "longshavings" at http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/6640. I hope to make it a site to discuss "Frugal Woodworking", which is my way of saying "you can make satisfying and useful items without $50,000 worth of exotic *power *ools". I hope to include instructional guides starting with which end of a saw to hold and going up from there. And of course links to other great woodworking sites. I also was thinking of offering it as a way for other Galoots to display their projects or even to post pictures to explain things they write about in OldTools (an end to awful ASCII art! :) ) I may even be able to scan photos for those who don't have access to a scanner. Come visit. (and say hi to Brenda for me. ;) ) Bill Fumbles with tools ---- Start of Message 15219 ---- From: Jeff Gorman Date: 1997-03-15 06:33:00 Subject: Re: Glue and filling edge gaps Patrick White wrote: ~ Is it just: plane to close tolerances, put glue in joint, rub wood ~ together to spread glue, let dry? Or am I totally off in the weeds here? Rub jointing was/is principally used with hot Scotch glue (Hide glue, (pearl glue) to the heathen, 8-)). This has a quick grab, so one hoped that it grabbed when the boards were correctly aligned. In view of this, start with longish strokes and then quickly shorten them. The assembled boards were then leant against a couple of battens propped against a wall. Some people bridged the joint with "U" shaped dogs driven into the end grain. It is possible to rub-joint white (amd maybe other) PVA glues, but I don't think it is really recommended. I suspect that the modern way of making a slightly concave joint that is closed with cramps is an improvement, since the ends of some rubbed joints seem to have a tendency to open from the effects of long-term shrinkage. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman - West Yorkshire jeff@m... ---- Start of Message 15220 ---- From: Jeff Gorman Date: 1997-03-15 06:46:00 Subject: RE: Glue and filling edge gaps Eric Coyle commented: ~ I WAS waiting for payday when ~ >I could go out and buy pipe clamps. ;-_) ~ > ~ Now I'm sure we all agree that the maximum number of any type of clamps is ~ an undefined number, but a recent experience with pipe-clamps has taught me ~ that when purchasing (medium cost) pipe-clamps, buy twice as many as you ~ need, as it's likely you're gonna find a number of them that don't screw ~ smoothly, have botched threading, misaligned holes and any number of really ~ glaring quality defects. Pipe clamps are virtually unknown over here and decent quality metal sash cramps are darned expensive. I have invested in some Record cramp heads that are fixed to 1" thick wooden bars and find them quite adequate, cheaper of course, and much lighter to handle and less likely to bruise the work when handled in a panic. Nor do they rust. They can be turned round to reverse the direction of pressure, eg for disassembling. Like all cramps, there is a tendency for the shoes to tilt backwards under pressure, but as always the placing of the cramping blocks is crucial. I can't understand why Record and others decided on 1" thick stuff, unless they intended them to be used with sawn stuff. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman - West Yorkshire jeff@m... ---- Start of Message 15221 ---- From: Kenneth Stagg Date: 1997-03-17 13:04:00 Subject: Saw question GG's, A couple of months ago I picked up a slightly strange backsaw from Tom and I have yet to figure out what it was designed to do. It's a Disston, steel spine, 16" blade, but only 1 5/8" under the back. Why? (It wasn't sharpened to this depth.) It looks like a dovetail saw that got sttrrrettcchhed. So far my best guess is that it was designed for cutting tennon shoulders and dadoes, it works quite well for this purpose, but the only reference I've seen to it is a picture in Barlow's (pg 177, item #10 "HENRY DISSTON & SONS fruitwood-handled shallow backsaw. 16" long.") Any ideas? -Ken ---- Start of Message 15222 ---- From: Mack McKinney Date: 1997-03-17 12:31:00 Subject: Sweet What?! (2nd try) GG's (I tried to send this message out Saturday, and I didn't see it appear over the weekend, so I presume it disappeared into the Technology Zone... Forgive me for double posting if I'm the only one who didn't get my message...) I was perusing my copy of _The Complete Woodworker_ (gloat) by Bernard E. Jones. On page 38 he makes a reference to "sweet oil" which he explicitly notes as not linseed oil. Can anyone out there in Galootdom enlighten me on what sweet oil is? Also, someone tell me whether I should gloat or not on this next one. SWMBO, the little apprentice and I went "antiquing" today for the first time. Antiques have hitherto been those wonderful things we would love to have but couldn't even afford to look at. That's still true, except for the handtools. Our little Central Kentucky town has three "antique malls" all within the space of a 1/4 mile, so we decided to be choosy, and hit all three. First stop bagged a Yankee 1530A eggbeater drill with Yankee's 5-position ratcheting mechanism. I'm not sure how useful a ratchet is going to be on an eggbeater, but it was $14.00, the single speed Stanley was $15.00, and the half-dozon nameless (and smaller) drills were $10.00. On the same wall hung a Millers Falls dual-speed breast drill for $50.00. I'm thinking that was a bit steep, and it is still hanging there. Second place netted a couple of molding planes, a matched set of (please correct my nomenclature) 1" hollow and round marked "A. Harris, Cinncinnati, O". Do you reckon that this was the maker, or owner? Anyway, $30.00 for the pair, not earth-shattering, but I could have done worse. The third place didn't have any tools, but it did have a pine desk that someone had done a crappy job of imitating a milk-paint finish on. It had a fiberboard back held on with bright, shiny _staples_, and the bit of exposed pine that I saw was as white as my daughter's behind. Also had a box that had obviously been poorly slapped together from pine scraps with a half-lid front and was being passed off as an "antique toolbox" with a price tag of $45. Yeah, right. We got out of there so fast the guy behind the counter raised his eyebrows -- sorry about his luck. All in all, not a day to set the world on fire from, but not a bad day for the first time out. Next, we'll work up our nerve and hit a flea market. Mack Just say(tm), this stuff could become intoxicating. -- Mack McKinney Virtual Library Research and Design B.L. Fisher Library - Asbury Theological Seminary 606.858.2355 ---- Start of Message 15223 ---- From: STEVE KORDIK Date: 1997-03-17 14:07:00 Subject: SWMBO Gloat Dear GGs, After dinner the other night, SWMBO brought out a package wrapped with birthday paper, my birthday was in late December so this was a complete suprise. I opened the package and spied a curly maple saw handle in one end. I thought could it really be, no it couldn't, yes it was! Inside the package was my very own IT saw!!! This was in addition to a Galoot has and a copy of the "Complete Woodworker" that I received on my birthday. I tried the saw on some hard maple scraps that I had laying around in the shop and the saw is everything that the other members of the porch have said and more. I feel truly blessed to have a wife who is supportive of my intrest in woodworking and old tools to the point of spending the time to find out how to obtain some of the items that have been discussed here that she knows I am too cheap to buy for myself. (This is doubly hard for her because we don't have Email access at home.) Thanks for listening to me. Steve Kordik Just one of the may Steves on the porch. ---- Start of Message 15224 ---- From: Marrin T. Fleet Date: 1997-03-17 14:07:00 Subject: BIO-Marrin Fleet Bio - Marrin T. Fleet I am a 'mature' man who enjoys collecting old tools. I have been collecting old tools -- and using them -- for several years. I am enjoying the comraderie of this group in discussing old tools, their use, and related subjects. Beyond that, I am a very private person. Marrin T. Fleet MFleet@c... SCT Corp. in adminstration of: Admin. Computing Services The University of Memphis Memphis, TN 38152 901-678-3604 ---- Start of Message 15225 ---- From: Dan Miller Date: 1997-03-17 16:25:00 Subject: MWTCA 3/23 in Rockford, IL? As a new member of MWTCA (my cards but a week old), I'm thinking of attending the meeting this Sunday in Rockford. If someone could be so kind as to tell me the location (and better yet, directions) I'd be most grateful. Any pointers as to what to expect would be appreciated as well. Thanks much, Dan -- Daniel Miller - dmiller@g... Independent Boatbuilder and Small Craft History Enthusiast Five Lakes Wooden Boat Center http://www.paddlin.com/fivelakes/canoe.htm ---- Start of Message 15226 ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 1997-03-17 16:34:00 Subject: Weekend Tooling After loaning the kids to Grandma for the weekend, the Wife and I set out to explore some of the antique shops and malls in the area, that we haven't been to either at all or in a while. Mostly around the Stroudsburg PA area. First stop was a shop we stopped at last year. Passed on a pair of Kennedy & White match planes (the tongue was $80 and the groove as $90!. Yeah, right) Two shops up the street, I grabbed a M. Long side bead. Mathias Long was listed as a planemaker in the 1850 census living in Reading PA. The mark is a AWP "A" stamp, plane looks early. (I had seen this one on last year's sojourn, but never got back to get it). After a couple more small shops, we hit the Engine Works Antique Mall. Big place. Lots of dealers. Saw lots of common wooden jacks (more than I normally see at these places), but all were common makers (Ohio, Scioto, Auburn) and in need of help. There was one dealer with a decent pile of tools, prices were steep, however I found a Henry White smoother (AWP "D" stamp) at a very reasonable price. Not a user, but a collectible name. Saw very few Stanley pieces, did see some Fulton, Craftsman, Empire, in metal or transitional, but considering the number of wood jacks and smoothers, I saw, someone must have hit the Stanley stuff big time. Did see a number of wooden planes by A.G. Moore, New York maker 1853-1861. Couple of beads and one jack, that I passed on for the time present. Sunday we hit a place in Allentown, Mechants Square. Mostly collectibles (they are antiques that haven't grown up yet!). Struck out there, although the Wife (who didn't find anything on Sat) grabbed a couple of enameled coffee pots at a steal price, along with some pattern glass water gobblets. All in all, it was a productive trip. But I can't wait for the outside flea markets to open up in a month! Tony ___________________________________________________________________ One is an interest Two is a collection Three is an obsession ___________________________________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 15227 ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1997-03-17 16:32:00 Subject: Re: Bio of Jim Crutchfield At 11:38 PM -0500 3/16/97, J. D. Crutchfield wrote: [snip of rockin' lawyer bio] >it would be hard for me to give up my Makita cordless drill Jim, stay with us on this one. We can work you through the Makita thing. upon successful completion of the *Twelve Steps of the Galoot* you will be using, and liking, a different sort of cordless drill. The one-handed models are mostly Yankee, made by North Bros.; two-handed by Miller's Falls and many others. They don't weigh nearly as much as your green plastic pistol jobbie, take their energy from the food you eat, and are q.u.i.e.t. Jim's further comment: >I'm just waiting for Norm to get hold of a complete >furniture-making machine, so he never has to touch the wood with his >hands at all. Receives my nomination for *friendly* jibe of the week. ;-) Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 15228 ---- From: Jim Cook Date: 1997-03-17 11:44:00 Subject: RE: Bio of Jim Crutchfield Jim, This is turning into a small world. who'd a thunk it. I was born in Lexington VA, grew up in Newport News, wasted a year at VMI, went into the service, spent a couple of years at Christopher Newport college, and was in a two person acoustic guitar group called "Gemini". then went to Richmond and got my Music ed degree from VCU, and was in another two person guitar duo called - and this is the truth - "Wood". I washed dishes at "la crepe et la steak" in Richmond , though only for about a month. I've been in the Boston area for 19 years, and miss the mild weather during the cold New England winter (but don't miss the heat in the summer :-). Welcome to the porch, fellow Virginian! Jim Cook ---------- >From: J. D. Crutchfield >To: oldtools >Subject: Bio of Jim Crutchfield >Date: Sunday, March 16, 1997 11:38PM > >Bio of Jim Crutchfield > >I live in Norfolk, Virginia, where I've been for almost ten years. I >was born in Fishersville, in the Shenandoah Valley, and grew up in >Newport News, across the water from Norfolk. I went to college at the >University of Rochester, New York, washed dishes for a year in Richmond >(at the Texas-Wisconsin Border Cafe, still the best chili I've ever >eaten), then went to law school at Washington & Lee University in >Lexington, Va. > >I've practised law since the fall of 1987, though right now I'm only >doing that part-time. Most of my practice has been defending people and >companies that get sued, though I've done some criminal defense work and >a little bit of plaintiff's work. > >I'm also a musician and I play in the folk band "Dramtreeo", as well as >an alternative rock duo called "Things in Action". You might have heard >of Dramtreeo. The band's been around about sixteen years, though I only >joined about four and a half years ago. We have four albums out so far, >of which I'm only on the fourth one, "Storm". > >I've always loved working with my hands and lurking in hardware stores, >but I never did any real woodworking until fairly recently. And I have >yet to really make anything besides a bench hook and a couple of other >simple projects. I've been assembling tools, though, and am getting >ready to build my first workbench. > >Reading Underhill's "Woodwright" books turned me into a galoot, I guess; >though I read Eric Sloan's books when I was in high school, and have >always had fantasies of living off the land and doing everything by >hand. That didn't stop me from buying some power tools (and I'll >confess, it would be hard for me to give up my Makita cordless drill); >but I've long since gotten pretty tired of Norm's "I'll just put this >through my thickness planer, then cut the mortices with my hollow chisel >morticer," etc. I'm just waiting for Norm to get hold of a complete >furniture-making machine, so he never has to touch the wood with his >hands at all. > >-- >Best wishes, > >Jim Crutchfield >Norfolk, Virginia >http://vabch.com/mrcynick > JDCrutch@i... > ---- Start of Message 15229 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-17 16:45:00 Subject: I done did it now Two weeks ago I weakened and bought some saws, after falling in love with a Disston handle. I can't claim anymore that I don't go out buying tools. (Except for once when I bought from the porch - it doesn't count.) Well, Saturday I slipped even farther down the slope. A patternmaker's pile in the hands of a dealer. And I slipped... The dealer turned out to be a woodcarver who had happily skimmed off the Buck chisels and hoped to recover by selling all that other stuff. We had already developed a cooperative relationship, when I told him what to look for in the "stuff" to make up some missing parts. This week, he found the pieces, so I was obligated to buy wasn't I? I even took stuff I don't need, won't use. EEEEK!!! 40% off some average reasonable prices tho. Whatever - it's done. Now in the "keepers" is a Millers Falls brace, beeeutiful, and the 13 pc set of Jennings bits, 4 to 16. (oops 7 & 9 are missing). It's OK, I have Irwins 7 & 9, except they have center shanks. But the Jennings set looks like new, works better than new, having been honed by a pro. I haven't tried the brace / bit yet, but my son bored a dozen holes in scraps and probably a couple extra into the deck. "Gee, Dad, this is really easy, pulled right through the 8x8 sill of the house, thru the wiring...plumbing...the cat..." [a side thought - I'd never hand my 12 year old a 1/2 HP drill motor and a 1" spade bit, then turn my back, without calling 911 in advance. But had no problem with this.] These bits sure look good lined up next to the extra long #15, 20, 32 Jennings bits. Price was $4 ea. with the brace thrown in, when I asked for that deal. Have I written enough lines to rationalize my slippage?? Gloat? I don't know, but I'm happy. Gene ---- Start of Message 15230 ---- From: Patrick White Date: 1997-03-17 16:49:00 Subject: Re: Holding power of nails > >....but the holding power of nails has twice decreased greatly over the last > This is something I've often heard repeated, but I must say it's not > born out by my own experience. I've pulled a lot of 19th century cut nails, > and have found that their holding power is practically worthless compared to > modern wire nails. Due to their wedge shape, once you've shifted them out a > little, they just let go. In contrast, wire nails resist pulling the entire > length of their shank. Have others noticed this too? I've pulled some nails in old houses, and while not scientific, I've observed the following: Cut nails are hard to get a handle on, and are brittle (ie. they tend to snap off if you bend them too much while pulling) which makes them difficult to pull. However, once get them started, they just pop on out (probably because of the wedge shape). Wire nails, on the other hand, do indeed seem to resist pulling the whole way, but they are easier to get a hold of and are nowhere near as brittle. However, after taking apart some pallets a few years ago for the wood, I have concluded that wood shrinkage is probably the single most important factor reguarding nail holding power against extraction. Those pallets were put together green using wire twist nails that closely resemble masonary nails... they simply could not be pulled unless the wood had a defect of some sort there making it weaker. Part of the holding power may have been corrosion from the green wood, but none of the nails I was able to pull seemed to be particularily rusted (maybe there's a connection?). Pulling up old flooring in an antique house that's held in with cut nails was a piece of cake compared to that pallet. -- later, Pat White (work: patbob@s..., (503) 578-3463, fax: (503) 578-5797) Aloha, Oregon: USDA zone 8, Sunset zone 6 (or so they say) ---- Start of Message 15231 ---- From: David R. Hunkins Date: 1997-03-17 17:23:00 Subject: Re: Sweet What?! At 08:00 PM 3/15/97 -0500, Mack McKinney wrote: >Second place netted a couple of molding planes, a matched set of (please >correct my nomenclature) 1" hollow and round marked "A. Harris, Cinncinnati, >O". Do you reckon that this was the maker, or owner? Anyway, $30.00 for the >pair, not earth-shattering, but I could have done worse. Mack, Mr. Pollak only lists a "N.HARRIS & CO./ CINCINNATI.O" and gives it a 3-star rating. No mention if this was a maker or hardware dealer. No mention of "A. HARRIS, CINNCINNATI", and I don't see it mentioned in Mike Humphrey or Plane Talk indexes. If you're reading your planes correctly, you may have a new unpublished imprint! "Rubbings" of unpublished imprints are welcomed and encouraged by "The Catalog of American Wooden Planes", published quarterly (+ a January supplement) by Michael Humphrey, 46 Western Ave., Sherborn MA 01770. I'm sure he'd like to hear from you. Good find ... $30 is looking pretty good! David ---- Start of Message 15232 ---- From: Simon O'Connor Date: 1997-03-17 17:12:00 Subject: Heat Treating Hi, I have nearly finished my Norris Infill Shoulder plane replica. It was not as hard as I thought it was going to be (in terms of skill level), but as I did it completely with hands tools, it nearly killed me!!! It has 1/8" steel sides dovetailed to a 1/4" steel base with Rosewood infill. (Small note, to anyone attempting the same task I really recommend getting yourself a Jewellers saw. It made cleaning out the dovetails a breeze. You just have to go slow, and expect to break a BUNCH of blades on steel, but luckily $6 will get you approx. 50 blades). All that remains with the plane is to make the blade, and then a few cosmetic touch ups. This is the point of the mail... I have some tool steel ordered from an industrial supply house (it comes fully annealed), as was going to heat treat it. I have my torch (which is a variable type one going up to 5000 F with one small propane/MAPP cannister and one small oxygen cannister). Not having ever heat treated something before, but having read up on it, I was wondering if any of you galoots out there had any firsthand knowledge/suggestions/warnings/advice etc you could pass on. Simon p.s. Did anyone ever get my bio I sent out months ago, it never showed up on my mail server? -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Simon O'Connor, Digital Domain, 300 Rose Av, Venice, CA 90291 Tel: 310-314 2801 ext3325 Fax: 310-314 2866 ------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Start of Message 15233 ---- From: Todd Kissam Date: 1997-03-17 17:40:00 Subject: Re: Sweet What?! At 08:00 PM 3/15/97 -0500, Mack wrote: Snip >Second place netted a couple of molding planes, a matched set of (please >correct my nomenclature) 1" hollow and round marked "A. Harris, Cinncinnati, >O". Do you reckon that this was the maker, or owner? Anyway, $30.00 for the >pair, not earth-shattering, but I could have done worse. > Probably: N. HARRIS & CO CINCINNATI.O This is a 3 star mark (50 to 100) examples known. So probably more value to a collector, I guess you should be able to at least double your money depending on condition. If it's not the mark above - then is unlisted and worth more. Todd ---- Start of Message 15234 ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1997-03-17 17:47:00 Subject: Re: Dowel-maker Gloat and question At 4:47 PM -0600 3/15/97, Mark van Roojen wrote: [snip] >Today, though, I managed to snag a #77 doweling machine with the standard >size 3/8 inch cutter head. Looks to be in nice shape. I got it for $30 at >auction which I know is a steal (how much of one I don't know since I don't >have the latest version of Walter's book). The Pocket Guide lists a range of $250-400. Ya happy now? ;-) Id'a replied privately, but I have an additional question: The Pocket Guide lists cutters in sizes of 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, in range of $50-100; and 5, 7, 9, and 11/16 in range of $75-150. Has anyone ever seen one of these contraptions with anything other than the 3/8" cutter installed? Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 15235 ---- From: Erwin L Schaffer Date: 1997-03-17 12:50:00 Subject: Re: Disston Gloat & a-" digest 1279 The D-20 was available 1921-1924 . It is a "light skewback" and "made particularly for those who prefer a narrow width blade" (probably "ship carpenter's " type). Note: The Astragal Press reproduced three catalogs and bound them in one volume called "The Handsaw Catalog Collection". It contains Simonds, Disston, and Atkins saw catalogs from c.1918. HOWEVER--the Disston Catalog included is from 1923! Erv Schaffer (ErvSaws) ---- Start of Message 15236 ---- From: Stephen Noe Date: 1997-03-17 08:16:00 Subject: Re: sweet oil Mack_McKinney wrote: >_The Complete Woodworker_ (gloat) by Bernard E. >Jones. On page 38 he makes a reference to "sweet oil" which he explicitly >notes as not linseed oil. Can anyone out there in Galootdom enlighten me on >what sweet oil is? Sweet oil is olive oil. It has long been used as a treatment for earaches - heat the whole bottle (drugstores sell it in 1/4 ounce bottles) to about 130-150 degrees F (about 65 degrees C for Jeff, Paul P, & the other non-Muricans) in a pan of water, and drop into the affected ear. That, and some acetominephen or ibuprofen, will keep the little one comfortable until the HMO opens and you can get some amoxicillin to actually cure the disease. J. Stephen Noe Human Anatomy and Physiology Department of General Education and Support Services Ivy Tech State College, Indianapolis, IN We are not passengers on Spaceship Earth, we are crew, and it's about time we took our duties seriously. ---- Start of Message 15237 ---- From: Geoff Kimbrough Date: 1997-03-17 18:21:00 Subject: Re: Is there an auction at Andy's this weekend? > At 11:04 PM 3/14/97 -0800, Bob A. wrote: > >Does anyone know if there is an auction at Andy's this weekend? I think > >it was Paddy who mentioned to me he thought there was one this month. > > > >Does anyone know? > > They usually send out fliers before auctions and I did not receive one. I > keep hoping there will be one soon. I just called Andy and asked. He has no Auction set up in the near future. The next Swapmeet at Andy's will be May 17th (the 3rd saturday of the month, as usual.) Andy's phone number is (310) 392-0565, FYI. Geoff -- dances with sawdust ---- Start of Message 15238 ---- From: Patrick White Date: 1997-03-17 18:26:00 Subject: Re: Walter's book > At the one "book" booth there was a small stack of Walter's Pocket > Guide, for $10 'Murican. I asked if they had the "Big Book" and was told > that they can't get it because for now Walter is marketing them himself, > and after he sells what he wants retail then he'll start wholesaling them > out in chunks. Until then, this purveyer of books on collecting informed May have been true for some time, but certainly not now. Just last Thursday (3/13) I wandered down to the local Woodcraft store and bought the soft cover one "off the shelf" (well, really out of the shipping box it had just arrived in). They had two hardcover copies on the wall. Didn't see any pocket guides. They did mention that they sell very fast, so I presume I was just at the right place on the right evening. -- later, Pat White (work: patbob@s..., (503) 578-3463, fax: (503) 578-5797) Aloha, Oregon: USDA zone 8, Sunset zone 6 (or so they say) ---- Start of Message 15239 ---- From: Douglas Bailey Date: 1997-03-17 13:11:00 Subject: Crane's auctions this year? Which one? I'm thinking of trying to get to one of the Crane's auctions this summer. I haven't been to one before, so it should be a great experience. The question is, which one should I shoot for? On June 7 there is an "Unlisted tool auction". On July 19 there's a "Flea market and listed tool auction". September 6 another "Unlisted tool auction". And September 19-20 there's a "Show, listed and catalog tool auctions". So which of these is the best for somebody interested in good or better user tools? If you tell me July, I'll be upset since I've got a conflict with that one... Thanks. Doug dbailey@n... ---- Start of Message 15240 ---- From: Simon O'Connor Date: 1997-03-17 18:32:00 Subject: Rosewood I have a question about Rosewood.... The infill shoulder plane I mentioned in my previous mailing has been filled with what I think is 'rose-wood'. I bought the rosewood from a hardwood specialty store. It has a beautiful rich deep brown color with strong black grain lines. However when I planned, or sawed this wood, the fresh wood left behind was a light tan color, not the beautiful rich color that was there on the surface. I have compared this wood to my exotic wood sample pack that I have, and I definitely think it is a member of the 'dalbergia' family. Is this normal behaviour for rosewood?? Will the wood darken to that same rich color over time (if so how long will it take)?? Or do I have a form of 'dalbergia' more allied to kingwood or something?? Thanks Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Simon O'Connor, Digital Domain, 300 Rose Av, Venice, CA 90291 Tel: 310-314 2801 ext3325 Fax: 310-314 2866 ------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Start of Message 15241 ---- From: Roger Rosner Date: 1997-03-17 18:51:00 Subject: sharpening auger info needed? Anyone out there got the thread(s) about sharpening auger bits? It never made it onto the porch web site and now I have a few to sharpen. (I suppose that's a gloat-got 'em for next to nothing in a box of junk at an auction. Box also had a nice Starrett marking gauge (in its original box), an ancient looking no-name router plane, a pair of Stanley level sites (in their original box), and a few lesser doodads.) Roger ---- Start of Message 15242 ---- From: Carl Muhlhausen Date: 1997-03-17 19:08:00 Subject: Re: Lie-Nielsen #62 questions > > SWMBO has finally given me the go-ahead to get a Lie-Nielsen low angled > jack plane. As I look through the various catalogs and the Lie-Nielsen > home page, it appears that this thing doesn't come with a bronze casting. > I could've sworn I've seen it in bronze in the past. Am I imagining this? > > I'm a bit concerned about getting it in cast iron for fear that it will > have a propensity to crack at the corners of the mouth, much like low angled > block planes. Is this fear unfounded? How did the original Stanley #62's > hold up? Should I expect the Lie-Nielsen to hold up? > Scott, I think the LN 62 has always been cast iron. The #4 comes in a choice of bronze or iron. I don't have a 62 myself, but I think if you use it for smoothing and don't try and set it like a scrub plane it shouldn't crack. The couple of times I used a 62 I thought it was a little too long for a smoother, but it was still a real nice plane. I'm waiting for their 164 which is a shorter version of the 62. (Been waiting since November>) Carl Carl W. Muhlhausen ledzep@e... Rm. 1B-115L or ledzep@a... AT&T BCS 307 Middletown-Lincroft Rd. Lincroft, NJ 07738 Personal Web page at: http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/2790 > ---- Start of Message 15243 ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1997-03-17 19:09:00 Subject: grinders It's commonly agreed that the usual cheaper grinders go way too fast (3000 RPM and up) to safely use on tools without care, quenching, etc. I've finally met a tool I have to grind (2 1/2" chisel with the end snapped off), and I'm curious why *no* inexpensive grinder rotates slow enough to be optimal for handtools. Is it really eight- to ten-times as expensive to build a grinder that goes at 800 RPM? Or is there an enormous market for higher-speed grinders, so that the slow ones are a niche market? If so, what is the usual market for regular grinders, if it isn't woodworking tool users? -- Andrew ---- Start of Message 15244 ---- From: David Tardiff Date: 1997-03-17 19:27:00 Subject: RE: BIG Wood... > >> Now there's a GALOOT!! BTW, I thought that pit saws were sometimes used >> on logs that were just trussed up. That is you build a trestle/scaffold >> that holds one end (or, in this case, all) of the log up far enough that >> the pit man can work. Sounds like a lot of work, > >Man, it is! And I sure wouldn't want to learn that skill on a butt end that >size. > > >but it might well be worth it for wood like that. > >A word of warning, if you are galoot enough to try it, the guy in the pit >(or below, if using a platform) better find himself the biggest-brimmed hat >he can find. > When I mentioned hand-cutting, partially joking, I was considering a side-to-side cut rather than the traditional pit saw or trestle work. This is a BIG and HEAVY log - I'm not getting in any temporary pit underneath it, and any trestle strong enough to hold it above me would have to be massive - and then how do you get it up there? To summarize the replies so far - most suggest quartering the log, by splitting or chainsaw, and then using a wood-mizer type mill to cut it up. Sensible! Still leaves that tricky first cuts, though - you need a bold chainsaw man, and I'm skeptical of splitting maple that large - oak I'd probably try. I'll keep you all informed. So far, NO ONE has volunteered to man the other end of the saw, though, either below or above - so I guess that means I don't have to share the wood! I'll keep you all informed. "Who'll help me quarter this log", asked the little red hen..."Not I," replied the galoots.... P.S. - anyone else catch the PBS Nova series on ancient technology? Great 5 hours on doing big stuff ONLY with age-appropriate technology. Build a pyramid, raise an obelisk, assemble Stonehenge, make a grass suspension bridge, roof the Roman stadiums...great shots of men hand-cutting-out an obelisk, from granite, using only other stones and bashing (not scary-sharpend!). Dave Tardiff tardiff@m... Digital Equipment Corporation ---- Start of Message 15245 ---- From: Don Bowen Date: 1997-03-17 19:43:00 Subject: Re: sweet oil >Sweet oil is olive oil. It has long been used as a treatment for earaches - >heat the whole bottle (drugstores sell it in 1/4 ounce bottles) to about >130-150 degrees F (about 65 degrees C for Jeff, Paul P, & the other >non-Muricans) in a pan of water, and drop into the affected ear. That, and >some acetominephen or ibuprofen, will keep the little one comfortable until >the HMO opens and you can get some amoxicillin to actually cure the disease. >J. Stephen Noe Thanks for that posting. I am a fan of the Patrick O'Brian seafaring novels. The doctor often takes a plunge in transferring between ships and they have a cup of heated sweet oil ready for his watch. Don Bowen Senior Software Engineer Valley Center, CA Virtual Integrators donb@c... Don.bowen@i... http://www.users.cts.com/crash/d/donb http://www.integrators.com/bowens ---- Start of Message 15246 ---- From: Bramel, Jim Date: 1997-03-17 19:46:00 Subject: Ruler Question This was sent to me this morning. Anyone have any information? Thanks, Jim > >COULD YOU LOOK IN THE INTERNET OR PUT OUT AN INQUIRY ABOUT A RULER MAKER? > >I HAVE A TWO FOLD SLIDING YARD STICK WITH THE NAME E.T. BURROWES & CO. >PORTLAND, M. E. DATED MARCH 24, 1891. > >I CANNOT FIND ANYTHING IN MY BOOKS ABOUT THIS. > >THANKS > >DOUG Jim Bramel - University of Kentucky - jbram00@p... ---- Start of Message 15247 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-17 19:50:00 Subject: Re: Lie-Nielsen #62 questions Hi Folks, Scott writes asking about the Lie-Nielson #62: >...it appears that this thing doesn't come with a bronze casting. >I could've sworn I've seen it in bronze in the past. Am I imagining this? > >I'm a bit concerned about getting it in cast iron for fear that it will >have a propensity to crack at the corners of the mouth, much like low angled >block planes. Is this fear unfounded? How did the original Stanley #62's >hold up? Should I expect the Lie-Nielsen to hold up? I have not seen a bronze version of the 62. I have had mine for about 4 years, and it is a very nice tool. When I use it now it's mostly on end grain, squaring up the ends of boards or on miters, and it does a very nice job of that. It does require some pushing to take any depth on end grain, and occasionally I have set it too deep and pushed too hard, and occasionally I have brought it to a halt because I mistakenly thought I'd go right through a knot. Most of those types of abuse occurred in the first year I had it, before having a good smoother, and when I knew even less than I know now. It held up without any apparent damage through the period of my most amateurish efforts, and I expect that now that I know how to take a little better care that it will last my lifetime. If I can keep from dropping it on the concrete floor of my basement... So, I don't know if it is an unfounded fear or not, but I haven't had any problems. The Lie-Nielson folks seem like square shooters, why not give them a call and ask them if they have ever seen any problems or had anyone report any to them? Best regards, Mike ---- Start of Message 15248 ---- From: Christopher E. Dunn Date: 1997-03-17 18:56:00 Subject: Re: Is there an auction at Andy's this weekend? > Subj: RE: Is there an auction at Andy's this weekend? > > At 11:04 PM 3/14/97 -0800, Bob A. wrote: > >Does anyone know if there is an auction at Andy's this weekend? I think > >it was Paddy who mentioned to me he thought there was one this month. > > > >Does anyone know? > > They usually send out fliers before auctions and I did not receive one. I > keep hoping there will be one soon. Don, I just spoke with Andy - he was in the shop today "By Chance". He has no auctions set up as of now, only the swap meets. The next swap is the 3rd Saturday in May. Chris ---- Start of Message 15249 ---- From: Paul Houtz Date: 1997-03-17 19:46:00 Subject: Re: Rub Joints Jeff Gorman writes: > >Patrick White wrote: > >~ Is it just: plane to close tolerances, put glue in joint, rub wood >~ together to spread glue, let dry? Or am I totally off in the weeds here? > >Rub jointing was/is principally used with hot Scotch glue (Hide glue, >(pearl glue) to the heathen, 8-)). This has a quick grab, so one hoped >that it grabbed when the boards were correctly aligned. In view of >this, start with longish strokes and then quickly shorten them. > >The assembled boards were then leant against a couple of battens >propped against a wall. Some people bridged the joint with "U" shaped >dogs driven into the end grain. > >It is possible to rub-joint white (amd maybe other) PVA glues, but I >don't think it is really recommended. I have been doing this for a while. I made a U-shaped stand and leave the boards on end in that. I have used yellow aliphatic resin glue and gotten good results, but hide glue works better. I tried yellow aliphatic resin the first time because I didn't have time for hide glue. Since regular yellow glue doesn't grip as quickly has hide glue, the edges have to be a dead-on match. The explanation I have seen for rub joints (in an English "Encyclopedia of Woodworking") is that once you rub out all the air in the joint, atmospheric pressure holds the two pieces of wood together tightly enough to make a good bond. Again, I haven't been doing it long enough to know how long the joint will last... ---- Start of Message 15250 ---- From: Paul Houtz Date: 1997-03-17 19:54:00 Subject: Re: Bio of Jim Crutchfield >At 11:38 PM -0500 3/16/97, J. D. Crutchfield wrote: > [snip of rockin' lawyer bio] >>it would be hard for me to give up my Makita cordless drill > > Jim, stay with us on this one. We can work you through the Makita >thing. upon successful completion of the *Twelve Steps of the Galoot* you >will be using, and liking, a different sort of cordless drill. The >one-handed models are mostly Yankee, made by North Bros.; two-handed by >Miller's Falls and many others. They don't weigh nearly as much as your >green plastic pistol jobbie, take their energy from the food you eat, and >are q.u.i.e.t. Not to mention that the batteries seem to last indefinitely... ---- Start of Message 15251 ---- From: Carl Muhlhausen Date: 1997-03-17 20:28:00 Subject: Re: Rosewood I have a question about Rosewood.... The infill shoulder plane I mentioned in my previous mailing has been filled with what I think is 'rose-wood'. I bought the rosewood from a hardwood specialty store. It has a beautiful rich deep brown color with strong black grain lines. However when I planned, or sawed this wood, the fresh wood left behind was a light tan color, not the beautiful rich color that was there on the surface. I have compared this wood to my exotic wood sample pack that I have, and I definitely think it is a member of the 'dalbergia' family. Is this normal behaviour for rosewood?? Will the wood darken to that same rich color over time (if so how long will it take)?? Or do I have a form of 'dalbergia' more allied to kingwood or something?? Thanks Simon The two rosewoods I've worked with both had the same distinctive smell. Kind of peppery or spicy. The sawdust was very fine and red colored. One wood was cocobolo and it was very dark; the other was Bolivian rosewood which had a rich brown heartwood and darker sapwood. There wasn't all that much change in color of the freshly planed or sawed wood from the wood that had been sitting around though. For me though the real test of a rosewood is whether it makes me start scratching and break out in blisters. So you might try rubbing some of the sawdust on a sensitive body part and see whether you get a similar reaction :-). I'd volunteer to test it for you, but the last time I ended up having to get a cortisone shot to relieve my misery. Don't know whether I have the courage or stupidity to complete the Bol. rosewood infills on mt STJBTC castings. Carl Carl W. Muhlhausen ledzep@e... Rm. 1B-115L or ledzep@a... AT&T BCS 307 Middletown-Lincroft Rd. Lincroft, NJ 07738 Personal Web page at: http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/2790 ---- Start of Message 15252 ---- From: Michael D. Sullivan Date: 1997-03-17 20:28:00 Subject: PATINA Pictures on the Web (second try) I got my pictures back from the PATINA show, scanned them at Kinko's, did some miscellaneous fiddling, and they are now on the Web for all to see. http://www.access.digex.net/~mds/patina97/ The picture containing a certain anonymous resident of Ashby, Mass. has been altered to protect said person's participation in the FBI witness protection program (or was it to ensure we have to buy a certain video if we want to see his face?). -- Michael D. Sullivan, Bethesda, Md., USA -- Email: mds@a..., avogadro@w... ---- Start of Message 15253 ---- From: Aaron Ionta Date: 1997-03-17 20:41:00 Subject: Re: Crane's auctions this year? Which one? Where are thees auctions held? new galooot from the tool tundra Douglas Bailey wrote: > > I'm thinking of trying to get to one of the Crane's auctions this > summer. I haven't been to one before, so it should be a great > experience. The question is, which one should I shoot for? > > On June 7 there is an "Unlisted tool auction". On July 19 there's a > "Flea market and listed tool auction". September 6 another "Unlisted > tool auction". And September 19-20 there's a "Show, listed and > catalog tool auctions". So which of these is the best for somebody > interested in good or better user tools? > > If you tell me July, I'll be upset since I've got a conflict with that > one... > > Thanks. > > Doug > dbailey@n... > \\\\\\\\\\\ ////////////////////// @ ////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\ Aaron R. Ionta IntraNet Solutions Inc. 9625 West 76th St. Suite #150 Eden Prairie, Minnesota 55344 aaron.ionta@i... Support Phone 888-688-8324 - Toll Free 612-903-2020 Direct Line 612-903-2032 ---- Start of Message 15254 ---- From: Marrin T. Fleet Date: 1997-03-17 14:46:00 Subject: Re: Bio of Jim Crutchfield On 17 Mar 97 at 11:54, Paul Houtz wrote: upon successful completion of the *Twelve Steps of the > >Galoot* you will be using, and liking, a different sort of cordless > >drill. The one-handed models are mostly Yankee, made by North > >Bros.; two-handed by Miller's Falls and many others. They don't > >weigh nearly as much as your green plastic pistol jobbie, take > >their energy from the food you eat, and are q.u.i.e.t. > > Not to mention that the batteries seem to last indefinitely... You must have different batteries than I do. Mine seem to be running down quite a bit here lately! Marrin T. Fleet MFleet@c... SCT Corp. in adminstration of: Admin. Computing Services The University of Memphis Memphis, TN 38152 901-678-3604 ---- Start of Message 15255 ---- From: Patrick White Date: 1997-03-17 21:23:00 Subject: Miller's Falls type studies and value guides? Could someone please point me to some type studies and value guides for Miller's Falls tools? -- thanks much, Pat White (work: patbob@s..., (503) 578-3463, fax: (503) 578-5797) Aloha, Oregon: USDA zone 8, Sunset zone 6 (or so they say) ---- Start of Message 15256 ---- From: Kenneth Stagg Date: 1997-03-17 22:12:00 Subject: Re: Holding Power of Nails-digest 1278 Erwin L Schaffer wrote: >.................. I'd have to "dig out" the names and where one can get > info on "withdrawal" holding power of nails if that is what is desired. I > know it's available. Wood density is the biggest factor governing > lateral resistance of nails for given nail diameter and length. The > higher the wood density--the higher the lateral strength for given size > nail. Hoadly (Hoadley?) covers straight withdrawl in 'Understanding Wood'. The formula is something like: p = 7850*g^(5/3)*d*l where: p is pounds supported g is the specific gravity of the wood containing the point of the nail d is the diameter, in inches, of the shank of the nail l is the length, in inches, of the portion of nail in the holding member The 5/3 may be 5/2, I just can't remember off the top of my head. If anyone is interested in the particulars I'd be happy to dig them out tonight. I think that NDS (Nation Design Specification) may also have values for withdrawl, but I'm not sure. -Ken ---- Start of Message 15257 ---- From: Andrew Tune Date: 1997-03-17 23:30:00 Subject: Saw set: Stanlet/Disston/??? Gentle galoots: I want to purchase a good user saw set. Seems there are lots around and they're not particularly expensive. So the question is... >From a users' point of view, which is the one to go for? Does it matter? Are they all the same? Can you buy a "good" brand and be confident or are they like planes - you have to know which model numbers are good and which are a WOFTAM? Thanks in advance for your help. Andrew. -- Andrew Tune Technix Consulting Group Andrew.Tune@t... Level 5, 695 Burke Rd Phone: +61 3 9882 2333 Camberwell, 3124 Fax: +61 3 9882 4799 URL: http://www.technix.com.au "What if there were no hypothetical situations?" ---- Start of Message 15258 ---- From: Andrew Tune Date: 1997-03-17 23:44:00 Subject: Replica Patternmaker's vice Gentle galoots: Some weeks back someone (either here or in rec.ww) posted a question about the repro of the Emmert patternmaker's vice being marketed by Axminster Power Tool Centre in the UK (150 pounds incl VAT). Was there any feedback on this? Has anyone looked at one or tried one? Has anyone bought one? Andrew. -- Andrew Tune Technix Consulting Group Andrew.Tune@t... Level 5, 695 Burke Rd Phone: +61 3 9882 2333 Camberwell, 3124 Fax: +61 3 9882 4799 URL: http://www.technix.com.au "What if there were no hypothetical situations?" ---- Start of Message 15259 ---- From: SBMarcus Date: 1997-03-17 23:52:00 Subject: Re: BIG Wood... so I guess that means I don't > have > to share the wood! Or supply the hat! Bruce ---- Start of Message 15260 ---- From: Mike Davies Date: 1997-03-18 00:27:00 Subject: Re: Disston Gloat (Irv wrote) >The D-20 was available 1921-1924 . It is a "light skewback" and "made >particularly for those who prefer a narrow width blade" (probably "ship >carpenter's " type). It was apparently available earlier than this, at least back to 1915 where it is listed in the Disston Jubilee catalog (isued to commemorate 75-years in the saw business). My guess is that they were introduced around this time perhaps to mark the jubilee. The D-20 was marketed alongside a trio of similar saws; the D-23, which was identical to the D-20 except for having a straight back instead of the skew back, and the D-21 and D-22 which were full profile (deeper) versions of the D-20 and D-23, respectively. As Irv points out, the D-20, D-21 & D-22 appears to have been dropped in the mid nineteen twenties, while the D-23 continued on well into the nineteen thirties (and perhaps beyond). These later D-23's can be identified (as can all later Disston saws) by the handles becoming progressively cruder and less finely shaped. - Mike Mike Davies St. Louis ---- Start of Message 15261 ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1997-03-18 01:03:00 Subject: the IT Java Jive Today brought a nice little package from Ashby, which included a couple blades, but the main event was two very cool, very tool-compatible coffee mugs bearing the Independence Tool logo. Highly recommended for caffeine addicts everywhere, or anyone wanting to distinguish hisself from the riffraff. -- Andrew One of these mugs and a galoot hat, and you're just a pair of pants away from high style indeed. ---- Start of Message 15262 ---- From: Scott Post Date: 1997-03-18 01:22:00 Subject: Usefulness of Stanley #164 Yesterday I asked about the Lie-Nielsen #62 and got a couple of responses that LN is working on a #164 that might be a better choice for use as a smoother on gnarley grain. Phil Hopkins also mentioned that Kelly Toolworks is working on a #164 repro. I visited the Stanley B&G and found: "Imagine taking the #62, and making it shorter, only to find that there is no room for the cutter adjustment mechanism. What do you do? Why, you take the conventional horizontally mounted Bailey adjustment, and mount it vertically. Problem solved? Nope. Bad management decision here. The plane was a white elephant." So what's the scoop? Is it a poor design, or just another Edsel that never took hold? -- Scott Post spost@n... http://www.netusa1.net/~spost ---- Start of Message 15263 ---- From: John Mudd Date: 1997-03-18 01:26:00 Subject: Ian Kirby: net-savvy? I was just digging through some old postings for rec.craft.metalworking, and noticed this little gem in the vote acknowledgement and tally back in 1992. Ian Kirby ("Ian_Kirby@m...") Could it be? Does anyone know whether Ian Kirby the fastidious woodworker is either from Australia or took a sabbatical over there? I was under the impression he was British, but maybe he's really Australian? "uow" is University of Wollongong, BTW. ---- Start of Message 15264 ---- From: Brent Parkin Date: 1997-03-18 01:50:00 Subject: Road Trip GG's, I'm off on a road trip to the left coast. I'll be looking forward to seeing Galoots such as Michael Lewis, Steve, LaMantia, and hopefully Ken Stagg. I'll be arriving in the Seattle area on Sunday at the Lewis Cave. Can't wait to meet you big Galoots!!! Oh could someone tell me how to set myself to postpone mode? A week of email will be too much to take when I come back. Regards, Brent F. Parkin Toronto, Ontario Canada eh! ---- Start of Message 15265 ---- From: Doug Dawson Date: 1997-03-18 01:52:00 Subject: Re: the IT Java Jive Earlier Andrew B. wrote, > Today brought a nice little package from Ashby, which > included a couple blades, but the main event was two very cool, > very tool-compatible coffee mugs bearing the Independence Tool > logo. Highly recommended for caffeine addicts everywhere, or > anyone wanting to distinguish hisself from the riffraff. That sounds great! How can I get one? Maybe the only thing out of IT that comes with a hanging hole? > One of these mugs and a galoot hat, and you're just a pair of > pants away from high style indeed. Methinks that rather than pants, high style is defined by pajamas, which many of us do our woodworking in, as a point of principle. Modesty forbids us from working in sumo garb when visitors may be arriving. Pajamas are fine wardrobe. Doug Dawson dawson@p... If you are an old man, and you walk into a bar wearing pajamas, people will buy you drinks. ---- Start of Message 15266 ---- From: Larry McVoy Date: 1997-03-18 02:03:00 Subject: Re: Usefulness of Stanley #164 I passed the question on to Tom himself, maybe he'll reply. ---- Start of Message 15267 ---- From: Gary Roberts Date: 1997-03-18 02:02:00 Subject: MWTC-A What is it? This strange one came through from MWTC-A. I wonder if it is a leather workers or book binders tool (brass?). I asked if she can get a picture for me to help with the ID. >From: MKirk2953@a... >Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 22:43:47 -0500 (EST) >To: groberts@s... >Subject: What is it? > >My father-in-law collects antique tools, and has had one for quite a while >that no one seems to be able to identify. I will try to take a picture of it >since my description will probably be had to understand: > >The tool is approx. 8" overall length, wood handle approx 1" in dia. and 4" >long. The tool itself looks to be brass. Where it connects to the handle, >it is approx. 1" in dia. then narrows to a point. It has a channel cut to >the middle in which a knife blade rests. There is a B in a circle engraved >at the larger end. > >Any help would be appreciated. Please e-mail me - MKirk2953@a... if you >have any ideas. Thanks for the help. Mary Ann Kirkpatrick. > Gary Roberts groberts@s... Boston, MA...Antique tools, Art Pottery, Hong Kong cinema, what else is there? ---- Start of Message 15268 ---- From: Gary Roberts Date: 1997-03-18 02:08:00 Subject: MWTC-A Tool Identification It's been a busy day at the old MWTC-A whatsit site... waddaytink? crimping pliers? gas pliers? really serious dental tools? >From: CDeming@a... >Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 19:20:11 -0500 (EST) >To: groberts@s... >Subject: Tool Identification > >I have a metal pliers type of tool I am trying to identifiy. It has >overlapping teeth on the top that act as a wire cutter, and below the cutter >teeth are two other sets of teeth about 1/4" apart with a 1/2" wide oval gap >between them. The 1st set below the cutter are flat on the edge and have >about 1/32 of an inch gap when the pliers are closed. The last set are sharp >and have about 1/8 gap when the pliers are closed. The pliers are 9 1/2 " >overall, with 2" between the pivot point and the top of the pliers. The >pliers have "PAT JULY 26 10" on each opposite sides of the jaws, "J.N.M." on >each handle and "NECESSITY" in script on the edge of each handle. All the >writting is forged into the tool and not added by an owner. >Appreciate any ideas you might be able to give me. >Thanks. >Chris Deming > Gary Roberts groberts@s... Boston, MA...Antique tools, Art Pottery, Hong Kong cinema, what else is there? ---- Start of Message 15269 ---- From: Paul Comino Date: 1997-03-18 03:02:00 Subject: Re: Ian Kirby: net-savvy? At 05:26 PM 3/17/97 -0800, John Mudd wrote: > >I was just digging through some old postings for rec.craft.metalworking, >and noticed this little gem in the vote acknowledgement and tally back > Ian Kirby ("Ian_Kirby@m...") > >Could it be? Does anyone know whether Ian Kirby the fastidious >woodworker is either from Australia or took a sabbatical over there? >I was under the impression he was British, but maybe he's really >Australian? >"uow" is University of Wollongong, BTW. John, Ian Kirby is currently on staff at UOW in Mechanical Engineering. This ties in with the r.c.metal reference. If he's the same bloke, I wouldn't mind his frequent flyer points. (: Paul Comino Brisbane, Australia. ---- Start of Message 15270 ---- From: Norman Witt Date: 1997-03-18 03:34:00 Subject: Re: grinders Andrew Barss writes: > It's commonly agreed that the usual cheaper grinders go > way too fast (3000 RPM and up) to safely use on tools without > care, quenching, etc. I've finally met a tool I have to grind (2 > 1/2" chisel with the end snapped off), and I'm curious why *no* > inexpensive grinder rotates slow enough to be optimal for > handtools. The price of low speed grinders is almost certainly due to the relatively small size of the woodworking grinder market. Most grinders are sold to metal workers, who use them in applications where overheating the steel is not an issue, and speed of stock removal is. HSS tools bits are hard to overheat. Garrett Wade offers a Taiwanese grinder that runs at 1800 RPM, for about $75. If you are mechanically inclined, you could try adapting the ubiquitous washing machine motor, which normally runs at 1800. If you want to go slower yet, you could improvise something with a separate arbor, and appropriate belts and pulleys to reduce the speed. Using a white aluminum oxide wheel will let you get away with using a 3600 RPM grinder, if you are careful. I have used this combination with good success on several chisels that needed major surgery, and only burned the first one. You have to be real careful, which in this case means grinding for only 1 second or less before quenching the tool in water. Keeping the back of the tool wet helps, since you know you have to stop and quench when the water evaporates. The white wheel is critical to being able to get away with this; the common grey wheel will burn your chisel no matter how careful you are. Despite my success, my chisel sharpening marathon convinced me I needed a grinder that ran at 1800. Norm W., who realizes that this is probably stretching the charter, but rationalizes that the information is useful for preventing incineration of old tools. Roy Underhill's foot operated grindstone, with the dripping water can, has its advantages in this area. ---- Start of Message 15271 ---- From: Larry Poffenberger Date: 1997-03-18 03:06:00 Subject: Re: Rosewood At 03:28 PM 3/17/97 -0500, Carl Muhlhausen wrote: > Lotsa snippage here >For me though the real test of a rosewood is whether it makes >me start scratching and break out in blisters. >So you might try rubbing some of the sawdust on a sensitive >body part and see whether you get a similar reaction :-). Just which body part did you have in mind? As Jeff Foxworthy would say "Hold my sign while I check this out for you." For those that haven't heard Jeff's record the sign says "STUPID" on it and he thinks "those" people should be required to wear it so the rest of us won't ask them for directions, etc. I was told, by the way that rosewood gets it's name from the faint smell it gives off when cut or sanded, not for it's distinctive grain. Can anyone confirm this? It does seem to give off a faint smell of roses when cut - or is it all in my mind (like when I think I'm going crazy)? Rstytool@c... Larry Poffenberger ROSEWOOD & BRASS - ANTIQUE TOOLS - BUY*SELL*TRADE For sale list; FTJ Rating system; and ? at: http://www.cris.com/~rstytool/ ---- Start of Message 15272 ---- From: Bob Johnson Date: 1997-03-18 04:22:00 Subject: Re: BIO-Marrin Fleet At 08:33 AM 3/17/97 CST6CDT, Marrin T. Fleet wrote: >Bio - Marrin T. Fleet > >Beyond that, I am a very private person. >Marrin T. Fleet > And, a man of few words. Welcome Marrin. Bob ---- Start of Message 15273 ---- From: Bob Johnson Date: 1997-03-18 04:22:00 Subject: Help needed with Teak prices August Assemblage of Galoots, I have the opportunity to purchase some 4/4 FAS Teak lumber but am wondering about the price. Local lumber merchants, here in the middle of the desert, are quoting $18-$21 for Teak. Just recently the price was $12. What is the price of Teak in your area? If you happen to know, I would appreciate a private e-mail. Thanks, Bob ---- Start of Message 15274 ---- From: Erwin L Schaffer Date: 1997-03-17 23:59:00 Subject: Re:Disston Gloat: Davies / Digest 1282 Mike: Thanks for the info re D-20 and others in a 1915 Disston Catalog. Further digging in t he earliest Disston Catalogs I have access to and having D-20 to D-23 models is a 1911! So availability range of the D-20 is extended down to at least 1911 and to 1924 or slightly beyond. I don't find D-20 to D-22 models in 1929, but the D-23 is listed there. In fact, the D-23 was available in varied forms thereafter to 1990. --- I'd sure enjoy examining that 1915 Disston Catalog, Mike! Is it a reprint or original? Erv Schaffer (ErvSaws) ---- Start of Message 15275 ---- From: Andy Wilkins Date: 1997-03-18 05:00:00 Subject: Re: Usefulness of Stanley #164 hi, Re: The #164 (low angle smoother) i reckon it must be the king of the smoothers and the reason why PL wrote what he did in the B&G is because he's bummed-out that he hasn't got one and has to use a stupid infill instead :-) I have no idea why the 164 never took off, maybe it was too expensive, maybe people reasoned that they could do virtually as well with a well-tuned bailey, maybe it wasn't marketed enough, who knows? i'm definately going to buy one when i've got some $$$ and LN are actually producing them. it's small so that it can follow the ups-and-downs of the wood, its mouth can easily be closed down to .5ga, its blade is supported right to the end (essentially), it has all the bailey adjustments and no-doubt it'll look nice too. Very importantly, it is easy to change the `angle of attack' of the iron into the wood, which will enable me to customise the plane to different sorts of woods (of course i'm not sure whether i will ever get around to doing this in practise!!). The only bummer is the potential chipping of the mouth, but i don't think that will happen if i'm just smoothing with it. Part of the reason that i'm going to buy one is to compare it with my baileys - i don't believe all the stuff about blades needing support right to their tips (for smoothing anyway) so i'm interested to see if i'm wrong or not. A -- apprentice neanderthal #42 homepage: http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/cgi-pschulz/andy-cgi/andyhome woodpage: http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/~awilkins/wood.html ---- Start of Message 15276 ---- From: SBMarcus Date: 1997-03-18 05:27:00 Subject: Pierce Auction: Long! Longer than a #8. Almost as long as a cooper's jointer. A couple of people asked me to post a piece on the auction of Cecil Pierce's stuff last year. I can give a general description, but don't expect any prices (except for the stuff I came away with). My mind just doesn't retain that sort of thing too well. For those of you who don't know about Cecil, he was an oldtimer from down Southport way (near Boothbay Harbor Me.). He died last year in his early nineties, leaving behind a legacy in four different fields. He was an avid fly fisherman and writer on the subject, who, I've been told, fished rivers in Alaska and Russia when he was well into his eighties. He was a flyrod maker of some repute (or ill-repute- fly fishing folk are the most opinionated tool users I have ever met). He made furniture in both traditional and modern styles. And he was a planemaker of national reputation, who also wrote a book "50 Years a Planemaker" about his experience. The auction was run by an outfit from Southern Maine that has experience with holding Sporting Goods auctions but none, that I know of, handling tools. And it showed! It was attended by about 150 people who divided into several different camps. The first stuff to go were some examples of C.'s furnituremaking, several modern pieces and a few unfinished items. These were mostly bought by neighbors and friends looking for momentos. They were pieces that did not represent Cecil at his best. He was, after all, a bit along in years and the diminution of his skills was apparent, especially in his finishes. But, he had a lot of neighbors and friends and I think he would have raised an eyebrow at what some of the pieces fetched. Flyfishing friends and plain flyfishermen/women, were about an eighth of the crowd and left as soon as his bits of tackle were gone. None of his serious stuff of that sort was in the auction. About a quarter of the crowd were flyrod makers or fly tyers of varying degree of seriousness. There was a great deal of bidding for his specialized tooling and some of them went away happy, a lot not. I had a student with me who was also in that camp and he, and several of his buddies, thought that the prices were out of line. Next to go up were the stationary power tools and that was a truly amazing sight. I've been to industrial surplus auctions that didn't offer anything like the variety of equipment that Cecil had assembled in his one-man shop. As best memory serves there were four machine lathes, three wood lathes, two metal cutting bandsaws (I scored one), three or four tablesaws etc. etc. The quality of the goods ranged from top of the line but ancient to Sears stuff that probably brought them more law-suits than profit. Most of the serious stuff was bought by heavy equipment dealers or machinists. Prices, on the whole, were less than similar stuff brings when it appears in a general-line auction. A point of interest was that the auctioneers didn't seem to know what half of the stuff was even used for. Their descriptions verged on the hilarious. And it got funnier as the auction progressed. That was followed by about twenty yards of portable power tools in all stages of repair and disrepair. I mean twenty circular saws, at least! Maybe five of them looked like they might work. The man never threw anything away. Bidding was fast and furious on that stuff. Why? Who knows! I went outside. That left the hand tools, the Cecil-made planes, lumber and some shop furniture. The Cecil-made planes also didn't represent C. at his best. Many of them were unfinished and I would guess that most of the rest were experiments that failed, prototypes, or ones that he felt were not up to salable standards, but didn't (or couldn't) part with. That didn't stop the bidders, some of whom were looking, again, for momentos, and others who were not knowledgeable tool users, or who didn't care. Many planes went for more than he would have charged for his best efforts. The quantity and variety of handtools was mindboggling. There were probably as many block planes as you would expect to find at several goodsize meets. Most of the few serious collector's tools, mostly Stanley, went to John Pels, a tool dealer from this area. A large number of tools bore C''s handprint; that is to say (and this was true even of many of the power tools) he had customized many of them to, or at least to attempt to, more efficiently accomplish specific jobs. Many planes had grooves ground into their soles, probably to be used in connection with the rig he had to put the compound taper in his rod fillets. Chisels had stops welded to them, spokeshaves had profiles ground into them, etc. The ignorance of the auctioneers led to some weird happenings, one, especially, to my advantage. There must have been at least three different sets each of chisels and carving tools. But none of them were put together as a lot. You might have to bid on three lots to get, if you won all three, one set of chisels. But, in addition you ended up with part of another set and, maybe, one of a set of carving tools, a couple of screwdrivers, an ice-pick etc. This resulted in a lot of furious trading among the successful bidders. One friend had his heart set on a set of carving tools. To get it he bid and won four lots and then spent about an hour in a huddle with three other people, while they sorted things out. He still didn't get the complete set. I've never seen another auction like it. 1st Gloat There was a buzz throughout the auction among those who know about such things that C.'s planemaker's floats (specialized rasps for shaping the throat openings of wooden planes) weren't to be seen. Fortunately for me, or, I should say my pal Leon Robbins, who I sold them to, I was looking to see if C had any cabinet rasps. It seems that I was the only one who noticed that the floats (eight of them) had been scattered among three box lots of rasps and files. These came up after ten or more lots of used files taped together were put up. For reasons that will be known only to the buyers, these kept bringing absurd amounts, like $25.00 for fifteen worn-out files. It was making me plenty nervous but the file madness had played itself out by the time my lots came up. I ended up paying $40.00 for the three lots that included, in addition to the floats, two unused Nicholson 49s, a 50, two unused European pattern patternmaker's rasps, and about two dozen other decent rasps and files, including some Swiss rifflers. Just one of Nicholsons would have cost me more from GW than I paid for all three lots. 2nd gloat I've always wanted to own a Gerstner machinist's chest. It wasn't my fault that the one I had to pay $75.00 for (I was competing against a woman who wanted to use it as a sewing cabinet) was so full of tools that I could barely lift it. Beside a lifetime supply of twist drills (about 10 sizes in packets of 10 to 25 each), there were 1/2 doz. mikes, dial indicators, vernier calipers, reamers, etc. etc. I don't know anything about the collector value of this stuff, but they sure do come in handy around my metal lathe. The wood, as usual at these affairs, went to week-end woodworkers who were impressed with their being exotic, or wide or mahogany and paid more per BF or Lb. than they could have purchased it for from a lumber supply house. This is not to put down amateur woodworkers, but it never ceases to amaze me how many people I see at auction religiously consulting Walters or other guides while buying tools who haven't researched the price of lumber and spend far more than they have to get it. Ebony and rosewood blanks that can be bought mail-order for 50-75 dollars were bringing twice that. A few wide mahogany boards sold for three times what they are readily available at. The biggest dueling occurred over some shop furniture, including C.'s sign, between neighbors and a representative of the local historical society. C would have definitely gotten a kick to see what his almost-dangerous shop chair fetched. All told it was an interesting and profitable afternoon. Bruce ---- Start of Message 15277 ---- From: Paul Comino Date: 1997-03-18 05:17:00 Subject: Re: MWTC-A What is it? At 10:02 PM 3/17/97 -0400, Gary Roberts wrote: >This strange one came through from MWTC-A. I wonder if it is a leather >workers or book binders tool (brass?). I asked if she can get a picture >>The tool is approx. 8" overall length, wood handle approx 1" in dia. and 4" >>long. The tool itself looks to be brass. Where it connects to the handle, >>it is approx. 1" in dia. then narrows to a point. It has a channel cut to >>the middle in which a knife blade rests. There is a B in a circle engraved >>at the larger end. Mary Ann, Gary and Galoots, This description fits that of a "cork borer sharpener". A cork borer is basically a thin walled metal tube with a sharpened edge one end and and a chuck holding device or handle at the other. The sharp end is applied to the cork or rubber bung - often with some lubrication - and rotated to form the hole. The sharpener is a brass cone as described with a "knife blade" loosely hinged at the wide end. The blade is not sharpened as a knife, but bevelled to form an edge of about 70 degrees. To sharpen a borer, the point of the tool is placed into the borer as far as possible, thumb pressure is applied to the blade, and the tool (or borer) rotated so that the "blade" scrapes the borer sharp. The cone dimensions limit the size borer that can be sharpened. The shape of the blade is such that as it is opened to different sizes, the sharpening angle remains more-or-less constant. Then again, I may be completely off track. Paul Comino Brisbane, Australia. ---- Start of Message 15278 ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 1997-03-18 10:33:00 Subject: Re: MWTC-A What is it? Hi, Gary et al. That conical brass thing with a hinged knife blade is a cork borer sharpener. Cork borers are brass tubes with sharpend edges. The tube goes over the brass cone and is rotated under the knife blade to renew the edge. There were a lot of these around, and they often turn up to mystify non-lab people. Trevor ---- Start of Message 15279 ---- From: J. Gunterman Date: 1997-03-18 00:00:00 Subject: Re: Lie-Nielsen #62 questions At 8:54 PM -0500 3/15/97, Scott Post wrote: >SWMBO has finally given me the go-ahead to get a Lie-Nielsen low angled >jack plane. Horraaaay!!!! another one joins the club ;-) >I could've sworn I've seen it in bronze in the past. Nope. >Am I imagining this? Yep >I'm a bit concerned about getting it in cast iron for fear that it will >have a propensity to crack at the corners of the mouth, I have had mine for quite some time and have used it _heavily_. (sometimes a maybee wee bit too heavy) Nary a flinch from it. It is tryly a bonerific tool, regardless of it's recent birth. L8r, John ---- Start of Message 15280 ---- From: J. Gunterman Date: 1997-03-18 00:08:00 Subject: Re: Lie-Nielsen #62 questions At 1:50 PM -0600 3/17/97, MLINDGRE wrote: >The Lie-Nielson folks seem like square shooters, why not >give them a call and ask them if they have ever seen any problems or >had anyone report any to them? Casrefull there! Now I'm not mentioning any names.............. I do recall a certain Galoot reporting that they have a #62 on display in thier shop that was "lost" off the roof of his car at 60+ Mi./Hr. I'd really l;ike to see a picture of _THAT_ on The Web L8r, John ---- Start of Message 15281 ---- From: J. Gunterman Date: 1997-03-18 00:15:00 Subject: Re: Replica Patternmaker's vice >Was there any feedback on this? Has anyone looked at one or tried >one? Has anyone bought one? I personally Just waited till I found a REAL Emmert .... As I recall I did not pay that much more that the copy goes for. Of couse Andy's has 3 of them... all sickly overpriced of course@ $300-$480!!! my Emmert was one of the reasons I HAD to biuld a new bench, I hung it on my existing bench and it looked good.. I took 2 steps back when I was done and watched my bench fall over on it's side from the weight.... Just lucky I did not crack a casting in THAT ordeal. John, My pappy always said :Shihead, Never be afraid to wait and save you money and buy the best, You'll always be satisfied w/ what you bought. L8r, John ---- Start of Message 15282 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1997-03-18 11:58:00 Subject: Disston finger hole >ErvSaws says: >>>... The D-8 Rip saw also has a >>>finger hole in the upper part of the handle for the index finger of the >>>right hand. > >Bob Brode commented >>I thought this was supposed to be for the thumb of the left hand? (At any >>rate that certainly works better for me in practice.) To which Gene added : >But this handle has a groove to lead the index finger into that hole. It >has another on the opposite side for the RH thumb. Much like a pistol grip, >with a fitted place for the trigger finger. I used my saw on the weekend and came to the conclusion that the hole is made for :both: the left thumb and the right index. While this makes for a very powerful grip I find that I can't control the saw as well as when my index finger is pointing straight ahead. Paul P Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 15283 ---- From: Roger Birkhead Date: 1997-03-18 13:16:00 Subject: Cork Borer Paul Comino, and Trevor Robinson nailed this one. As suprising as it may be I even used one of these things once in Chem lab in college...and I graduated in 1995! Anyway a set of cork borers and a sharpener are great to have around the shop for making leather washers for chisel handles etc. Roger B. (since now I see another Roger popping up on the list :-) ---- Start of Message 15284 ---- From: Jim Shedlauskas Date: 1997-03-18 13:16:00 Subject: Re: OLDTOOLS digest 1282 Yep, the NDS (National Design Specification for Wood Construction, available from the American Forest and Paper Assoc.) is the place to look for all your wood design values including connections. There is one table for nail withdrawl values, no equations anymore, and as Ken mentioned the values are based on specific gravity and fastener diameter. The 1991 edition of the NDS is the current one, although a new one will be published this year. There's all kinds of interesting things in there, mostly engineer geek stuff about structural wood design. Jim >Erwin L Schaffer wrote: >>.................. I'd have to "dig out" the names and where one >can get >> info on "withdrawal" holding power of nails if that is what is >desired. I >> know it's available. Wood density is the biggest factor governing >> lateral resistance of nails for given nail diameter and length. The >> higher the wood density--the higher the lateral strength for given >size nail. >Hoadly (Hoadley?) covers straight withdrawl in 'Understanding Wood'. >The formula is something like: > >p = 7850*g^(5/3)*d*l > >where: >p is pounds supported >g is the specific gravity of the wood containing the point of the nail >d is the diameter, in inches, of the shank of the nail >>l is the length, in inches, of the portion of nail in the holding >member > >The 5/3 may be 5/2, I just can't remember off the top of my head. If >anyone is interested in the particulars I'd be happy to dig them out >tonight. > >I think that NDS (Nation Design Specification) may also have values >for >withdrawl, but I'm not sure. > >-Ken ---- Start of Message 15285 ---- From: CDeming@a... Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 19:20:11 -0500 (EST) To: groberts@s... Subje Date: 1997-03-18 13:45:00 Subject: Re: MWTC-A Tool Identification On Mon, 17 Mar 1997 22:08:29 -0400, Gary Roberts wrote: It's been a busy day at the old MWTC-A whatsit site... waddaytink? crimping pliers? gas pliers? really serious dental tools? Definitely sounds like combo wirecutters/crimping pliers. Probably used by electricians or linemen for crimping connectors onto wire. I have some newer-style ones (1970 or so) that also include bolt cutters. I have a metal pliers type of tool I am trying to identifiy. It has overlapping teeth on the top that act as a wire cutter, and below the cutter teeth are two other sets of teeth about 1/4" apart with a 1/2" wide oval gap between them. The 1st set below the cutter are flat on the edge and have about 1/32 of an inch gap when the pliers are closed. The last set are sharp and have about 1/8 gap when the pliers are closed. The pliers are 9 1/2 " overall, with 2" between the pivot point and the top of the pliers. The pliers have "PAT JULY 26 10" on each opposite sides of the jaws, "J.N.M." on each handle and "NECESSITY" in script on the edge of each handle. All the writting is forged into the tool and not added by an owner. Appreciate any ideas you might be able to give me. Thanks. Chris Deming Gary Roberts groberts@s... Boston, MA...Antique tools, Art Pottery, Hong Kong cinema, what else is there? ---- Start of Message 15286 ---- From: Mack McKinney Date: 1997-03-18 13:45:00 Subject: Harris Molding Planes To those GG's that got back to me regarding my recent acquisitions: You were correct, they are marked "N. Harris, Cinncinnati, O." One of the planes the "N" is rather obscure. Guess which one I chanced to pick up for my sample? Murphy was an optimist. Is there anyone out there in Galootdom that collects these buzzards? I'd like to correspond a bit more about them. Thanks for your help! Mack, who is refining his knowledge of the English Alphabet -- Mack McKinney Virtual Library Research and Design B.L. Fisher Library - Asbury Theological Seminary 606.858.2355 ---- Start of Message 15287 ---- From: Roger Rosner Date: 1997-03-18 15:12:00 Subject: RE: sharpening auger info needed? Thanks to all who responded (which was a lot!). I'll put the thread on the porch web site (www.pangea.com/~rock/oldtools) for future reference. Roger ---- Start of Message 15288 ---- From: Paul Fuss Date: 1997-03-18 15:21:00 Subject: Re: Stanely Four Square? Tom H. wrote: >GG-- > In the Walter Pocket Guide I recently picked up, there is a section >on a line of Stanley tools called "Four Square," including a little bit of >everything in the standard WW list, plus a pipe wrench, hatchet.... They >all seem to have this neat logo, with, would you believe it, four little >squares forming one bigger square. > Was a line for beginners? A "boy's tool chest," or what? Any idea >what period it was produced? Nothing to ID--just curious. > Tom Holloway, Tom, Stanley's Four Square line was an "in-between" line, developed to take advantage of a specific niche in the market. It falls somewhere between "cheap" tools and Stanley's highest quality tools, and was aimed at householders and farmers. They used different packaging colors and of course the logo to distinguish them from the "Stanley quality" tools. The Four Square line included a general swivel-base vise, screwdrivers, a hammer, hand drill, breast drill, smooth plane, jack plane, block plane, handsaw, wood level, aluminum level, ratcheting brace, saw set, ice pick, zig-zag rule, and beveled socket chisels. This is all from a Stanley Four Square sales packet from 1931 which I picked up at a flea market last year (hidden gloat), which includes a catalog, bulletin, and various sales paraphernalia. Paul Fuss ---- Start of Message 15289 ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1997-03-18 15:49:00 Subject: Re: Rosewood Many of you read my plea for info on rosewood following my "gloat". Yesterday I bought it. YEA! The bad news is that it is of VERY checkered quality. Lots of worm holes, sapwood, lengthwise cracking, heartwood etc. and not all that much of it. The good news is that within all that there is some gorgeous stuff! I'll write more on FMM. Relative to this thread. I started trying to clean some of the wood up (not thicknessing it...just paring away splitting and wormy sapwood etc. Some seems to have very little aroma, some IS like a rosegarden...amazing. Since it is now clear that this is all from Brazil and very very old, my thoughts are simply that, within species, some is more aromatic than others, and my GUESS is that, like most hardwood, it has a lot to do with things like mineral content, season, altitude, and availability of water where the tree grew. Perhaps I'm way off base, but it IS, after all, just a guess. Tom (who will submit a much belated bio later today) ---- Start of Message 15290 ---- From: Trevor Robinson Date: 1997-03-18 15:49:00 Subject: Re: MWTC-A Tool Identification Hi, Gary et al. That whatsit is called a in Patent No. 965,722, issued to John N. Macdonald -- hence the initials J.N.M. I remember that my father used to use one of these things in fixing broken tire chains. Trevor ---- Start of Message 15291 ---- From: Josh Kaufman Date: 1997-03-18 03:41:00 Subject: RE: MWTC-A What is it? This is a tool any chemistry oriented galoot would recognise. Its a sharpenner for cork borers. Cork borers are sharpenned brass tubes with a T-handle on the end. The sharpenner will raise a burr on the end of the brass tube. >> >>The tool is approx. 8" overall length, wood handle approx 1" in dia. and 4" >>long. The tool itself looks to be brass. Where it connects to the handle, >>it is approx. 1" in dia. then narrows to a point. It has a channel cut to >>the middle in which a knife blade rests. There is a B in a circle engraved >>at the larger end. ---- Start of Message 15292 ---- From: Ron Hock Date: 1997-03-18 16:33:00 Subject: DIY Heat Treating tips (encore) I posted this some time ago when the group project was the St. James Bay plane "kits" and some were (bravely) doing their own blades for them. It's doable; get some extra pieces of the same steel to practice on... The first step is to get the metal to its critical temperature which with good old O-1 is 1450 - 1500F. Got a good pyrometer? No problem. For some reason (let it be a mystery; there are so few left) steel ceases to be magnetic at that temp. This phenomenon is called the "Curie Point" after the discoverer, Pierre. So one can simply heat the metal till the magnet is no longer attracted to it then quench in oil. I like to use peanut oil because the flash point is very high which minimizes the risk of fire (the risk is still there, tho; be prepared: use long tongs to handle the work to keep your hand out of the way) and it smells nice(r) when it smokes. How to get the blade to the Curie point is probably the biggest problem for the DIYer. When the metal is glowing red, the carbon behaves as if it's in a liquid and can therefore migrate around as it pleases. This is necessary for the hardening to occur but near the surface of the metal those unfaithful little carbon atoms would just as soon run off with any available oxygen-sluts it runs into (oxygen is soooo seductive) and they're lost then forever. We hate that. We attempt to prevent this by: heating the metal in an inert (oxygen free atmosphere) and/or limit the time at red-heat (in air) to as little as possible. A torch makes both of those very difficult. It's very hard to heat something as large as a Norris-type blade evenly with a small torch-generated spot of heat. A forge fire is better because of its uniformity and it can be starved for air a bit to decrease the oxygen in its immediate vicinity. A small lab-type test oven works quite well. (Also used for ceramic glaze tests.) Toss in a charcoal briquette to scavenge some of the oxygen. When it's hit critical temp, remove it from the heat and quickly dunk it into a sufficient quantity of oil (preheated to about 150F.) Swish it around a bit until it's cooled then let it cool to ambient in the air. It should now be very hard and too brittle to use. (If you attempt to file it, the file should skid on the blade.) Two ways to temper to a useable hardness/toughness: by colors or by temp. If you have a very accurate oven in the kitchen, just heat it to 325F and you're done. An accurate deep-fryer will do the same. But without the accurate temp control, you'll have to use the surface oxide colors to know when enough is enough. First, clean some part of the blade (probably the flat area back from the bevel) till it's bright metal again. When heated, that spot will change colors (you've seen the rainbow of colors on any overheated steel) starting with a very faint yellow (called light straw). Since we like our blades Good-n-Hard(tm), stop there (remove from the heat, quench if necessary to stop any further increase.) Any color beyond the faintest straw is too much. (The blade will still work, it just won't hold the edge you want.) Be overly cautious with tempering. You can always re-temper a too-hard blade, but if you go too far and soften it too much, you have to re-harden it all over again. So if a blade seems too hard, just toss it back in the oven and go a little higher. You're done. If the blade looks awful, you can sandblast or grind it pretty but it should work well regardless. Before honing, be sure to grind back the bevel a bit. That thin section probably took more than its fair share of carbon burn-out abuse and you need to get to the good stuff. Same for the back. Doing a good job on the back is at least if not more important than the work on the bevel. A little extra elbow grease will remove the de-carbed layer and get to good metal. On any blade used bevel-down, the back IS the Cutting Edge. Think about it. If the back hasn't been honed deeply enough, the blade will never work well. Good luck and feel free to ask more questions. Ron Ron Hock http://www.mcn.org/a/rhock/hockhome.htm Hock Handmade Knives 16650 Mitchell Creek Drive Fort Bragg, CA 95437 (707) 964-2782 fax (707) 964-7816 ---- Start of Message 15293 ---- From: Paul F Gillespie Date: 1997-03-18 16:51:00 Subject: Re: grinders Andrew asks: >Is it really eight- to ten-times as expensive to build a grinder >that goes at 800 RPM? Or is there an enormous market for >higher-speed grinders, so that the slow ones are a niche market? > If so, what is the usual market for regular grinders, if it >isn't woodworking tool users? My very limited experience with motors tells me that it is more expensive to build a slower RPM motor. A slower RPM motor has more "poles" inherent in its design. A quick perusal of my resources says that a 1725 RPM motor costs not quite double a 3450 RPM motor. I don't see any 800 RPM motors, but one would think that they cost more. It doesn't quite explain 8-10x's the cost. My guess is the rest of the difference is market demand. Oldtools question: Has anyone ever considered making a treadle-powered grinding station out of one of those mandrel thingies you can buy? Paul Gillespie ---- Start of Message 15294 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-18 17:02:00 Subject: RE: Heat Treating Simon Wrote... >Not having ever heat treated something before, but having read up on it, I >was >wondering if any of you galoots out there had any firsthand >knowledge/suggestions/warnings/advice etc you could pass on. Simon, I have piddled about with forging quite a bit in my younger years back on the farm and I am looking forward to building my own forge now that I am a land owner myself (well, okay, I have a yard now). Things I would take into consideration are that multiple or repeated heating will ultimately reduce the carbon content so don't dawdle and try to get it right the first time. Your torch should work fine as long as it is large enough to get the entire hardening area the same color at the same time. (I have done a lot of this with an oxy/acetylene torch.) You probably only need to harden and temper like an inch or inch and a half of the edge of the cutter. Your quenching vessel needs to be big enough to immerse the whole work piece and keep it there until it is completely cool. I usually fill a five gallon can with water and hold the work piece with pliers or vise-grips in the middle for half a minute or so. Good luck, and wear welding gloves if you have them. Scot > ---- Start of Message 15295 ---- From: Carl Muhlhausen Date: 1997-03-18 17:10:00 Subject: Re: Usefulness of Stanley #164 > Yesterday I asked about the Lie-Nielsen #62 and got a couple of responses > that LN is working on a #164 that might be a better choice for use as a > smoother on gnarley grain. Phil Hopkins also mentioned that Kelly Toolworks > is working on a #164 repro. > > I visited the Stanley B&G and found: > > "Imagine taking the #62, and making it shorter, only to find that > there is no room for the cutter adjustment mechanism. What do you > do? Why, you take the conventional horizontally mounted Bailey > adjustment, and mount it vertically. Problem solved? Nope. Bad > management decision here. The plane was a white elephant." > > So what's the scoop? Is it a poor design, or just another Edsel that > never took hold? > > I asked Tim Kelly this question yesterday and he said he thought it was a dud not for any technical reason, but because it was introduced in the 1930's by which time the era of handtools was beginning it's sad decline, especially for new products. I' be interested myself in hearing from anyone who's actually used one of these puppies. Carl ---- Start of Message 15296 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-18 17:19:00 Subject: RE: Lie-Nielsen #62 questions Scott wrote... >>I'm a bit concerned about getting it in cast iron for fear that it will >>have a propensity to crack at the corners of the mouth, much like low angled >>block planes. Is this fear unfounded? How did the original Stanley #62's >>hold up? Should I expect the Lie-Nielsen to hold up? I have read in the B&G about the cracks that can develop in this plane, but I cannot imagine the kind of use that could do this. I recently inherited my GradDad's Stanley #62 and it has no cracks at all. I don't know how much my GrandDad used it, but I KNOW my Dad used the $&#% out of it while he had it. On just one job, he hung 300 solid oak doors using this plane to smooth the ends after cutting them to length by hand (and yes, even at 72 my Dad can STILL whip my ass). The original iron on this plane has been used to the point that it no longer reaches the work, so I have not yet had the opportunity to enjoy using it. But, I sure have no doubts about its ruggedness. Scot > ---- Start of Message 15297 ---- From: Marrin T. Fleet Date: 1997-03-18 11:25:00 Subject: Re: grinders On 18 Mar 97 at 11:51, Paul F Gillespie wrote: in response to others: > My very limited experience with motors tells me that it is more > expensive to build a slower RPM motor. In effect, there already is such a slow-speed grinder on the market -- several of them, in fact. The 2-inch belt sanders typically used by knife makers slows down the effective speed of the surface to a much lower feet per minute. Marrin T. Fleet MFleet@c... SCT Corp. in adminstration of: Admin. Computing Services The University of Memphis Memphis, TN 38152 901-678-3604 ---- Start of Message 15298 ---- From: Simon O'Connor Date: 1997-03-18 16:40:00 Subject: BIO I sent something similar to this out a while back, but apparently it didn't reach anyone. My name is Simon O'Connor, I am 25, single, originally of English origin, though having lived in Spain for 5 years, and out here in L.A. for 3. I work at a company called Digital Domain who do Visual F/X for movies. I have been here since the beginning, and we have done a lot of movies, most notably Apollo 13. (I did all the simulated camera shake shots, as well as some other stuff..). I recently finished working on the Luc Beson's new movie, the 'Fifth Element', where I was one of the computer graphic supervisors. I live with my girlfirend in a house in Topanga, up in the hills with our two dogsm Otis, black cocker spaniel, and Milo a Rhodesian ridgeback. I got into woodworking when we first moved to Topanga over a year ago. We had no dinning room table, so I went down to local lumber yard and bought a bunch of construction grade wood. I built a table in an afternoon using a backsaw and portable hand drill I borrowed, and the table is still in use today... After my success I then starting reading up on wood working and acquired a bunch of pxxer tools, not knowing any better. Several pieces and a few months later, I was cutting a raised panel on the tabxx saw, when the wood decided to kickback at me. My index finger on my left hand unfortunately got in the way.... Luckily none of it got lost (except for half the nail), tough the top bone got smashed into about 12 pieces, and the bone below had the joint smashed. The result of this is a non-operational top joint on my finger, a rather ugly looking tip and pain (I am also left handed...) During my rehab time, and initially to keep my girlfriend happy, I started reading about hand tools. Suddenly this became an obsession, and naturally when one gets into using hand tools, they are naturally led done the path to old tools. I learnt this the hard way, buying modern tools, and then being disgusted at how bad most of them were, with a few notable exceptions. Recently, in my quest for the ultimate hand tools, I attempted to build a replica Norris infill shoulder plane. This actually worked out much better than I expected, and I all I need to do to finish it is to heat treat and fit the blade (I am making the blade from 1/4" thick oil hardening Starrett tool steel). Having been in the throws of a move, and also working 100+ hour weeks, I didn't have much time to do more than look at my tools. However, the movie now being thankfully over, I have nearly finished my first totally made by hand project. It is a Paduak humidor, made with dovetailed joints (my first handcut dovetails!!). It came out better than expected, which is more of a tribute to the beauty of the wood than to my skill...... Anyway, there you have it... Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Simon O'Connor, Digital Domain, 300 Rose Av, Venice, CA 90291 Tel: 310-314 2801 ext3325 Fax: 310-314 2866 ------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Start of Message 15299 ---- From: Paul Houtz Date: 1997-03-18 17:49:00 Subject: More Panel Raising... Folks, I just want to describe my exhilerating experience last night of raising a panel in a truly historical context. I received my holdfasts from Brian Emery (resident blacksmith at the Hancock Shaker Village). So, it was necessary, of course, to do some work with them. My old method of raising a panel involved pinning a batten to the panel and using a skewed rebate plane to lower the field. I used clamps to hold the batten and stock to the bench top. If you have done this, you know it is a pain. The procedure is, roughly: 1. Sketch a line on the stuff 2. Align batten 3. Attach batten. 4. find a place to clamp batten and stuff to bench. 5. Use a bench stop to hold the other end of the panel 6. start cutting rabbet 7. measure depth of rabbet 8. When rabbet is correct depth, start tilting plane and checking with mullet. 9. unscrew clamps 10. remove clamps 11. remove batten 12. rotate piece ... And now there are holes in my panel!!! The new method with my "Brian Emery" holdfasts and my flea market panel raising plane: 1. Place holdfast and scrap on stuff with end hanging over bench. 2. Pop holdfast with a mallot. 3. Score end grain with marking gauge (unnecessary on side grain) 4. Plane with panel plane held horizontal until it stops cutting 5. Tilt plane and continue planing checking with mullet. 6. Pop back of holdfast to release stuff. Wonderful. And these 6 steps are a lot easier than those in the first list. I am a happy camper. No holes in the panel, either. I also made a discovery that y'all probably knew already. I was playing with the idea of "Historical Context", and wondering about my electric lights. I tried working with a candle and oil lamp. I decided that in olden times, woodworkers did their work from dawn to dusk, with only emergency work after daylight hours. In the morning, a candle was lying on the bench. I put my jack down on it, and when I picked it up to plane with it, totally different experience! So I hit the bottom of all my planes with the candle wax. Incredible! Now I can really feel the shape of the stock with my plane. I am getting much better results. If you haven't, try it. You'll like it! Sorry to ramble. -gph ---- Start of Message 15300 ---- From: Jim Cook Date: 1997-03-18 13:17:00 Subject: Eldred's Auction review Galoots, It was a beautiful late winter day in New England, and a perfect day for a drive from Newton, MA down to East Dennis on Cape Cod. Robert Brazile showed up at my house at 6:45am and we took off on an 85 mile test of the new "mushmobile", armed with the strains of Gentle Giant's "Acquiring the taste", down Rt 3. An hour and a half later, we pulled into Eldred's parking lot, early for the viewing, but we went in anyway so we could start drooling properly. That was a good thing, because they ended the viewing far too soon to make me happy, and I missed looking at a lot of stuff. Galoot attendence was small, there were only four of us that I knew about. Sandy Moss, Charlie Newbold, Robert and myself, but the four of us soon established ourselves as serious bottom feeders. Sandy, though he professes to know nothing about the dollar value of tools, has to be acknowledged as *the* king of bottom feeders (Ed Fisher may disagree, but he wasn't around to defend his title). Sandy had a completely uncanny ability to put his paddle up in the air first when the auctioneer dropped to "anybody at $10?". He got great stuff, and nobody bid against him. I, on the other hand, had to bid up to the princely sum of $11 or $12 or even $14 on a couple of items to get them. The format was interesting, and entirely different from the Crane's auctions I've been to. During the viewing, everything was in locked display cabinets, and if you wanted to look at something, you had to get the attendant with the key to open the cabinet for you. At Crane's everything is loaded on tables in the same hall. The 10% buyer's premium was depressing, and made everyone a little more cautious. All the tools were kept in the locked viewing room during the auction, and one lot at a time were loaded on a two-sided motorized rotating display wall (like the bookshelf in your favorite horror movie), and spun around. Very mechanized and mass production, and very security conscious. Maybe that's the way the average non-oldtool antique auctions are handled, but it seemed a little strange to me. For attendees, the pricing was really great, with things like a Stanley #1 going for $325 (yes you heard right, $325!). I think it had some overcleaning or repair done to it, but I missed exactly what. A #97 went for $525, a stanley chute plane and chute went for only about $300. I really wish I'd had a little bit deeper pockets to bid on some of those pieces. The bidders who attended by mail had to pay through the nose for the privelidge, about 90% of mail-in bidders got what they wanted, but paid too much relative to what the rest of the pricing was. Catalogs and other ephemera generally went for 20-30% of what the low end of the catalog range estimates. A truly minty #19 block plane, with perfect, mirror bright nickel on the lever cap, in a box, went for $120 (walters range from $40-$80), so condition seemed to be the paramount factor for most bidders with serious money to spend. There was one lady bidder who seemed to have been given the assignment to buy all the plow planes. I think she bought somewhere between six and eight of them, all for $90+ each, and it didn't seem to matter whether they were screw-arm, slide-arm, or handled, or who they were made by. Perplexed was this galoot. There were even a couple of telephone bids, I assume they wanted to remain anonymous and not be seen attending a tool auction, but it got really wild when two telephone bidders went against each other for big ticket wooden planes; everyone in the room turned around to watch the operators (as in "operators are standing by to take your order"). I must comment on some of the materials being auctioned off. I could pretty much get past the bung reamers, and I was able to handle the butt gauges without much of a smile (I have three of them after all), but I had to leave when they brought out the handcuffs (complete with keys). I guess they're antique tools of a sort... After paying and standing in line to have our stuff collected from the viewing room, we hopped (well no... we actually crawled) back into the mushmobile for the return journey, to the tunes of Steely Dan's "the royal scam" and "aja". Charlie, I still have to talk to you about that lot with the MF #1 and the #151 spokeshave you outbid me for - don't you think you paid a little too much for that stuff?? :-) - next Crane's 4/18 and 4/19 - see ya there. Jim ---- Start of Message 15301 ---- From: Simon O'Connor Date: 1997-03-18 18:12:00 Subject: Planemaking---very long I sent this to Andrew yesterday, and I thought to the rest of the mailing list too, however I screwed up yet again...so here it is ... > Simon, > > Would you consider posting details on exactly how you > built the plane? Sounds terrific. > > -- Andrew > Hi, The details for building this plane where pretty simple. I basically adapted the information in Kingshott's book to work with a shoulder plane. First I downloaded an image of a Norris shoulder plane from the Museum of Woodworking, which I used to generate the side template. (I traced the image using Alias Power Animator with the camera match function, and then scaled it to the correct length as given in the Museum's data sheet, this I then printed out as full scale plan). I bought a sheet of 1/8" mild steel plate from an industrial steel supplier. I was going to build the base out of this too, but decided it was too thin. I therefore bought a piece of 1/4" mild steel (1 1/2") wide from the local hardware dealer. On one side of the 1/8 steel I sprayed blue layout fluid. I then placed my template on top of this and 'hole' marked the outline (i.e. tapped a center punch into the steel all around the template. The outline was aligned on the flat side of the steel, with about 1/16" spare to allow for peening later. After doing this I then cleaned up the outline by connecting the dots with a carbide tipped scriber. The second piece of steel (for the other side, which was roughly cut), was clamped to the back of the piece with the outline on making sure the bottom edges were flush. I drilled 5 holes 1/8" through both pieces and connected the two using 1/8" diameter by 1/4" aluminum 'POP' rivets. The location of these holes will eventually become rivets holding the infill to the sides, so their location should be planned accordingly. Once the two are held together, they maybe worked as one piece. Hacksaw the outline, and then clean it up with files. Mark the dovetails out, making sure that the mouth opening will be located on the bottom plate. I cut the sides of the dovetails with a mini-hacksaw, and then tried to drill out the waste. A better way (that I used for the sole) is to use a jewellers saw. When the dovetails are cut, clean then a bit with a file (I saved the actual faring till a bit later). You may now separate the two pieces by drilling the rivets out using a 3/16" bit. After doing this, coutersink the holes on the outside of the sides. I then clamped the sides to a piece of scrap 3/4" birch that I had planeed square, ensuring the flates of the dovetails were aligned with the top of the wood. Using a file it was then easier (for me) to true up the dovetails using the wood as a reference. Once this was done, I cut the 1 1/2" plate to about 1 1/16" wide and then scribed a pair of lines 3/4" apart done the 1/4" steel plate so they were centered on the bar. I used the side pieces to mark the dovetails out on the edge of the sole, and then scribed lines to create the double splay. This dovetails where then cleaned out with a jeweller's saw. Some fitting will be necessary to get the side pieces to fit on the sole. The whole assembly is fitted onto a squared up 3/4" wide piece of firm hardwood, the sides being screwed to this. Place the assembly into a metal-working vice, and then peen the dovetails using a ball peen hammer. This part was fun, and it is very satifsying to see the holes fill up with steel!! If you cut your sole slightly wider than 1", then you can peen the sole dovetails too (I used this to fiill in the mistakes I made whilst using the drill to try and clean out my first set of dovetails!!!). I found that because of the steels malleability (sp?) that it is a very forgiving medium. Try and cut the dovetails as accurately as you can, but don't sweat over it. Once you have got this far you will then need to file away the rest of the peens marks and overhanging steel. This is a lot of hardwork. You can now remove your wood, and place in your actual infill. Using a coping saw, and the steel sides makes cutting the infill to shape very easy. Whilst doing this I attached the infill to the body by drilling through the rivets holes and using a threaded bolt to hold it in place. Remove the infill and cut the back part to the bed angle you wish. The front section should then be cut at the wedge angle, making sure that there will be enough room to clear the blade. A wedge can also be made. I am saving cutting the mouth until my tool steel arrives (I am using 1/4 Starrett high carbon tool steel). I am also saving final cutting of the infill to allow for any unforseen problems. Once the mouth is cut though, I will file the front to the same angle as the wood infill. The wood infill will then be held permanently in place by peening over 3/16" mild steel bar through the rivet holes, and then filing flush. Final cleanup will then be done, including the creation of a bevel around the top curvature, though this bevel I will probably create before securing the wood so as not to impregnate my wood with metal filings. It has been tough going using only hand tools (with the exception of my drill press, as I currently have no other way to cutr holes in steel), but very rewarding. It is easy to see why these planes commanded such high prices. I intend to start work on my panel planes next.. Good luck, Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Simon O'Connor, Digital Domain, 300 Rose Av, Venice, CA 90291 Tel: 310-314 2801 ext3325 Fax: 310-314 2866 ------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Start of Message 15302 ---- From: John Crane Date: 1997-03-18 18:29:00 Subject: Re: More Panel Raising... O.K. So what's a Mullet? JC John F. Crane Operations Lightbridge Inc. Phone (617)672-4059 281 Winter Street E-mail crane@l... Waltham MA. 02154 __________________ ---- | | |-_ ----- | Lightbridge | | |_ ------- __`o' ---- | |_| | ------_`<,_ ^^oo^^^^^^^^^oo^^^ o^^o^ -----(*)/ (*) ---- Start of Message 15303 ---- From: J. D. Crutchfield Date: 1997-03-18 18:49:00 Subject: Questions on plumber's brass blow torch I've found a little brass blow torch, such as plumbers used to use, and I'd appreciate any information you galoots can give me as to its identity, value, and proper use. The body is mostly brass, though the handle and the piece that supports the business end are steel, and the handle grip is plastic (bakelite?). It looks to hold about a half-pint of fuel. It has a little hand-pump coming out of the top, to one side of the burner assembly, and a pin-valve on the other side. The burner itself has no valve, as on bigger blow torches. There seems to be no wick, and the burner is fed through a brass tube. The handle has the letters "R M" moulded into it. I've cleaned it up, more or less, replaced the leather washer in the pump (first with neoprene, which stretched, then with leather I cut myself, rather inexactly but close enough to work), and sealed all the threads with teflon tape (an old Popular Mechanics article recommends "brown kitchen soap", i.e., Octagon, which I have, but I thought teflon would work better). It operates, after a fashion, but not well enough to work with. When I pump it up, it seems to hold pressure well. At a certain point, a little gas wells up into the well (!) in the top, which I light to heat the burner up so the gas will vaporize and blow out through the burner. I can then get a small flame from the burner, but it rarely gets as far as the end of the tube (or whatever the part is called that the flame is supposed to come out of), and it mostly blows out the right side vent, instead of straight out the front. I can't get it to the point of sending a good, hot, blue flame out the front (unless that just requires a _lot_ more pumping than I've done so far). The pin valve so far doesn't seem to have any effect on the flame. I've tried taking the teflon off of its threads, in case that was obstructing it, but with no noticeable effect. While the torch is burning, I can tighten or loosen the pin valve as far as I want, short of releasing the pressure altogether, with no effect. If I do start letting pressure bleed off, while the torch is burning, the pin valve naturally gets a little flame of its own, which I suppose means I'm lucky I haven't blown myself up by letting out all the pressurized gasoline vapor at once. Is the pin valve there just to bleed off pressure (with the torch out, I would assume)? Or is it supposed to adjust the flame somehow? To get a useful flame, do I just need to pump up the pressure more, or is there something I need to clean or adjust? Does the flame's coming out at an angle mean something in the burner or feed tube is crooked, or will extra pressure (or whatever makes the flame bigger) take care of that? Are there any articles or books out there that would help me with this torch? I have a couple of articles from Popular Mechanics of the '30s, about maintenance of the bigger sort of blow torch, but nothing on this smaller, simpler model. Finally, anybody know who made this torch, or what it's worth? Many thanks for any help. -- Best wishes, Jim Crutchfield Norfolk, Virginia http://vabch.com/mrcynick ---- Start of Message 15304 ---- From: Sam Peterson Date: 1997-03-18 18:54:00 Subject: Re: grinders -Reply Gentle Galoots, Paul Gillespie wondered: >Oldtools question: Has anyone ever considered making a >treadle-powered grinding station out of one of those mandrel thingies >you can buy? I have bought the mandrel from Woodcraft and a 10" 220 grit aluminum-oxide grinding wheel ( 2" face) from Delta. It is part of their wet/dry grinder. The wheel has a 7/8 hole and the mandrel has a 5/8 shaft which were merged with a spacer? from Home Depot. I am hewing some timbers for the frame and hope to have a treadle grinder soon. I found a 20" or so ( 2" face) Norton course grit wheel at a local surplus center. I also plan to make that into a treadle grindstone. ---- Start of Message 15305 ---- From: Paul Houtz Date: 1997-03-18 19:15:00 Subject: Re: grinders Paul Writes: > >Andrew asks: > > >Is it really eight- to ten-times as expensive to build a grinder > >that goes at 800 RPM? Or is there an enormous market for > >higher-speed grinders, so that the slow ones are a niche market? > > If so, what is the usual market for regular grinders, if it > >isn't woodworking tool users? > >My very limited experience with motors tells me that it is more >expensive to build a slower RPM motor. A slower RPM motor has more >"poles" inherent in its design. A quick perusal of my resources says >that a 1725 RPM motor costs not quite double a 3450 RPM motor. I >don't see any 800 RPM motors, but one would think that they cost more. > It doesn't quite explain 8-10x's the cost. My guess is the rest of >the difference is market demand. Small mandrels are easily available from hardware stores (OSH carries them) and from mail-order tool outlets like "Woodworker's Supply", etc. Just use a small pulley on the motor and a large pulley on the mandrel. You can even use stepped pulleys to allow yourself to change speeds like on a drill press. Of course, you have to build a frame and somekind of mechanism for adjusting belt tension, but it shouldn't be too hard. With the new link-belts you don't need much more than an oblong hole in the motor mounting. An advantage of living in the SF Bay Area is the enormous number of surplus electronics goods companies like HSC, Wierd Stuff Warehouse, Halted Electronics, etc., that have numerous 110 v induction motors for sale running at various different speeds and horsepower. Small ones are quite numerous and quite cheap. They only start getting expensive when you start looking for > 1 HP single phase motors. This advantage is DOES NOT outweigh the lack of access to 19th and 18th century wooden planes. I would rather have the planes than the motors :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) ---- Start of Message 15306 ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1997-03-18 19:20:00 Subject: Re: grinders-again This brings up a question I've had. I have an old wet grinder. Probably a 16" wheel that runs in water very slowly, and I gave up trying to use it because it just doesn't remove any steel. If it were a regular bench grinder, I'd put the ol' wheel dresser on it. Any ideas about how to resurrect my ol grinder? Would a wheel dresser even work on something that turns so slowly, and, should there be a little water soluble cutting oil in the water with these things? Also, it seems to me that the correct way to set up a grinder would not be on the basis of rpm, but on the basis of surface feet per second at the cutting edge. That is to say that an 8" stone is moving a ton faster at the circumference than would be a 6" inch stone. If that's so, I could re-pully my wet-grinder to a correct speed if I knew what was recommended. Thanks for any ideas. Tom ---- Start of Message 15307 ---- From: GACHASSIN, KRIS Date: 1997-03-18 19:36:23 Subject: Questions for "Plane Guys" Galoots, A few weeks ago I was cleaning and tuning a pair of Stanley No. 4 planes. One was a #4C Type 11, the other a #4 Type 17. While looking these over, a few questions came to mind. Opinions, fact, or fiction from the "plane guys" of the porch are solicited. Considering that the Type 17 planes were made during the heat of WW-II, one can understand the following observations: 1. Rosewood not available for totes and knobs - U.S. enemy interrupting shipping and/or U.S. ships needed for troop support. 2. No more frog screwing - Too busy shooting at others and considered non essential machining. 3. Absence of brass for depth adjuster - Needed to produce cartridges for first assumption in item 2. With all of this in mind, why were the bed castings made heavier? Were the castings made with inferior materials and made heavier to compensate? One could assume that with rationing of all metals and scrap metal drives to support the war effort, planes would have been cast lighter or made from stamped sheet metal. PS - I find that the tote on the Type 11 to be more graceful and comfortable ! Best regards - Kris ---- Start of Message 15308 ---- From: Bob Brode Date: 1997-03-18 19:55:00 Subject: Re: grinders Norman Witt: >... >Using a white aluminum oxide wheel will let you get away with >using a 3600 RPM grinder, if you are careful... >... You have to be real careful, >which in this case means grinding for only 1 second or less before >quenching the tool in water.... >The white wheel is critical to being able to get away with this; the >common grey wheel will burn your chisel no matter how careful you are. >... FWIW, my experience is somewhat different.. One of these days I intend to get a white/pink wheel, but in the meantime I've done a fair amount of bevel grinding with a cheapo garden-variety Chinese 3600 rpm grinder with gray wheels, and it seems to work fine. Indeed, I'm carefully to cool frequently with water, but it's more like every five-ten seconds or so, depending on the size of the piece. Tools I've ground seem to take and hold an edge fine. Once in a great while I _have_ blued a corner on a small chisel when I got a little careless. Gray wheels probably need to be de-glazed pretty often, compared to white wheels. Bob Brode ---- Start of Message 15309 ---- From: Simon O'Connor Date: 1997-03-18 19:36:00 Subject: Re: Planemaking---very long On Mar 18, 2:23pm, Robert Brazile wrote: > Subject: Re: Planemaking---very long > > Have you any means to post a picture of the plane? If not, I'd be happy to > do so for you -- I'm sure lots of us would like to see the results. > > Robert Brazile >-- End of excerpt from Robert Brazile Eh... I can send JPEG attachments, that is about it. I only have WEB access and e-mail at work, so no way of setting up a web page I am afraid. It needs to be finished and cleaned up a bit (the curves need some fairing, and the peen marks and some layout fluid still show right now, plus there is no blade or mouth). I'll post some pictures when its done. I am about to embark (time permitting) on making a panel plane. I could, if people were interested, take a photo document of the making progress to encourage people to do the same... Simon Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Simon O'Connor, Digital Domain, 300 Rose Av, Venice, CA 90291 Tel: 310-314 2801 ext3325 Fax: 310-314 2866 ------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Start of Message 15310 ---- From: Robert Brazile Date: 1997-03-18 19:55:00 Subject: Re: Planemaking---very long >I am about to embark (time permitting) on making a panel plane. I could, if >people were interested, take a photo document of the making progress to >encourage people to do the same... I suspect I speak for others when I say that there is considerable interest in such a thing. Robert ---- Start of Message 15311 ---- From: Don Stern Date: 1997-03-18 19:56:00 Subject: Harris Infills GG's Is the Harris line of planes listed in Wm Alden connected in any way to the ones Mack has referred to? Alden currently lists an infill jointer for about $1300.00 and says they are manufactured in Costa Rica. Thanks Don On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Mack McKinney wrote: To those GG's that got back to me regarding my recent acquisitions: You were correct, they are marked "N. Harris, Cinncinnati, O." One of the planes the "N" is rather obscure. Guess which one I chanced to pick up for my sample? Murphy was an optimist. Is there anyone out there in Galootdom that collects these buzzards? I'd like to correspond a bit more about them. ---- Start of Message 15312 ---- From: Bob Brode Date: 1997-03-18 19:56:00 Subject: RE: BIG Wood... Dave Tardiff: > >When I mentioned hand-cutting, partially joking, I was considering a >side-to-side >cut rather than the traditional pit saw or trestle work. This is a BIG >and HEAVY >log - I'm not getting in any temporary pit underneath it, and any >trestle strong >enough to hold it above me would have to be massive - and then how do >you >get it up there? To plug one of my obscure obsessions: you could use a maebiki, which is typically used from the side with the log on the ground, I believe. See http://www.leonardo.net/bob.brode/woodwork/book.jpg (>100K JPEG) for a picture of a pretty sizable log that's been halved in this manner. (Mostly tongue-in-cheek, but just to show another way of doing it, which happens to be with a hand tool.) Bob Brode ---- Start of Message 15313 ---- From: Webber, Bill Date: 1997-03-18 15:25:00 Subject: RE: grinders Once in a great while I _have_ blued a corner on a small chisel when I got a little careless. When I need to re-grind an iron on a stone or the belt sandah I use a jig that will give me repeatable positioning and then do the grinding with just a touch...touch... touch... I keep my fingers as close as possible to the business end of the iron so that I can feel the temperature come up. A swipe with a damp rag is all that is needed to keep the temperature under control. I haven't burned anything yet... 'cept my fingers :-) Regards, Bill W. ---- Start of Message 15314 ---- From: Dave Wolverton Date: 1997-03-18 15:25:00 Subject: lathe flywheels: crowned vs. dished GGs, In my legendary 2 year quest to build a treadle lathe, I picked up a cast iron spoked flywheel. The outer rim of this flywheel is very slightly dished. That is, it isn't crowned like a bandsaw's wheels are supposed to be, and not flat either like I've heard that some line-shaft-driven pulleys are. (To make things concrete, it is dished approx. 1/16" over 2" of width.) Once upon a time I read an explanation of why a bandsaw's crowned wheels helped the saw blade "track". Well I can't resurrect that logic for the life of me, but if a crowned wheel is good, then a dished wheel has to be bad, right? So can anyone reassure me that using a dished-rim wheel might work OK? I'll be using a flat leather belt. Also, if the flywheel has a dished rim, should the drive pulley (in the lathe headstock) be crowned, or dished, or flat, or doesn't it matter? Enquiring minds want to know, dave -- Dave Wolverton Email: dwolverton@l... Phone: 908-949-1125 ---- Start of Message 15315 ---- From: Doug Dawson Date: 1997-03-18 20:38:00 Subject: Re: grinders, and the need for them... [ Lots of discussion about electric grinders, tamped. ] You don't need a grinder if you have good stones and can use them - unless, perhaps, you abuse your tools. The only occasions when I've even thought about a grinder is in dealing with pre-owned edge tools that the previous owner has abused. In which case they generally need a lot more work than simply doing a new bevel, and are not worth your time given the choice. What a grinder could accomplish there is the least of your troubles. When people are talking about grinders here, are you talking about re-conditioning badly abused tools that you have purchased, or do you really mean that you grind down your tools as a matter of course when you work with them? Doug Dawson dawson@p... Just say, the thought of all that old metal being flushed away is kind of scary. ---- Start of Message 15316 ---- From: dwolverton@l...[SMTP:dwolverton@l...] Date: 1997-03-18 20:41:00 Subject: lathe flywheels: crowned vs. dished I would guess that a dished flywheel means it was meant to be driven by a round belt, not a flat one. So, the headstock pulley would need to match this dish. > ---------- > From: dwolverton@l...[SMTP:dwolverton@l...] > Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 1997 12:26 PM > To: oldtools@l... > Subject: lathe flywheels: crowned vs. dished > > GGs, > > In my legendary 2 year quest to build a treadle lathe, I picked up > a cast iron spoked flywheel. The outer rim of this flywheel is > very slightly dished. That is, it isn't crowned like a bandsaw's > wheels are supposed to be, and not flat either like I've heard that > some line-shaft-driven pulleys are. (To make things concrete, > it is dished approx. 1/16" over 2" of width.) > > Once upon a time I read an explanation of why a bandsaw's crowned > wheels helped the saw blade "track". Well I can't resurrect that > logic for the life of me, but if a crowned wheel is good, then a > dished wheel has to be bad, right? > > So can anyone reassure me that using a dished-rim wheel might > work OK? I'll be using a flat leather belt. Also, if the flywheel > has a dished rim, should the drive pulley (in the lathe headstock) > be crowned, or dished, or flat, or doesn't it matter? > > Enquiring minds want to know, > > dave > -- > Dave Wolverton > Email: dwolverton@l... Phone: 908-949-1125 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 15317 ---- From: Doug Dawson Date: 1997-03-18 20:41:00 Subject: Re: BIG Wood... and the maebiki Earlier Bob Brode wrote, > To plug one of my obscure obsessions: you could use a maebiki, which is > typically used from the side with the log on the ground, I believe. See > http://www.leonardo.net/bob.brode/woodwork/book.jpg (>100K JPEG) for a > picture of a pretty sizable log that's been halved in this manner. > > (Mostly tongue-in-cheek, but just to show another way of doing it, which > happens to be with a hand tool.) I don't know where you could get one of these in America. Certainly not in the catalogues - and I'm led to understand that they're not easy to find in Japan anymore either, used or otherwise. That is really too bad. I wish I had one - they're pretty nifty-looking. It has something to do with the mechanization of rough sawyering in Japan over the past most-of-a-century. Odate's book on Japanese woodworking tools has more information. You'd really need one of these to attack a largish tree like what has been described. Actually... that tree may even be too large for a maebiki, which has a range of a few feet. If you had a maebiki already, it would most certainly be worth a try, if you felt confident that there was no metal in the tree, and if the diameter was right in comparison to the saw. Doug Dawson dawson@p... ---- Start of Message 15318 ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1997-03-18 20:56:00 Subject: BIO Long overdo....should have read the fine print I guess... I was born and raised in Oakes North Dakota (1946)...my Dad was a plumber and a very talented woodworker. Unfortunately, almost all of his tools got away from the family after his early death in 1969. As a child, I used to head down into the basement with him after supper to watch him work and to build things from the scraps. I still have a pair of lamp he made with spiral turnings. My early career was as a mechanical designer for Collins Radio in Cedar Rapids Iowa...then on to the LeFebure Corp where I did layout and design of banking security equipment (NOBODY gets into the desks I build (ha)). After my dad's death, I went home to join my Mom in the antique store business that she had begun after my father's death. There I worked refinishing furniture for 8 years before "answering the call" to ministry. I now have been a Lutheran pastor since '85. And live in Lakeville, MN. My SWMBO is a psychologist in private practice and we have 5 grown children with first grandchild on the way. I now am busy building furniture for the kids on my day off. They're all afraid I'm going to die before they get something I've made so the pressure is on (grin). I also collect Stanley (type 12-13) and use em all. I can't believe how hard I worked to do things with wood when I was refinishing full-time that I now have found Stanley made tools that were designed to do the job. How I ever got along without a router plane is a mystery to me. I have built several pieces of the furniture that fills our house (antique "repros") and mind myself anxious to spend every spare moment developing skills. I am now building "The Bench" and am SOOOOO excited to finally be getting at it. An aside. When I was in my mid-20's an d living in Cedar Rapids, Ia, there were two men in partnership in Marion,IA who refinished together professionally for about 50 years. They taught me everything SO freely and generously. I read dozens of books on the subject, and whenever I would get stuck they would drop whatever they were doing and teach teach teach. They were two of the most gracious individuals I have ever had the pleasure of knowing. Mr. Eckhardt and Mr. Harford. I never knew their first names. They referred to each other as "Mister___" I've never met Mr. Kirby or Mr. Klausz, but after "the thread", I couldn't help but remember so very fondly the gentle encouragement of these two old gentlemen. Skill? I watched Mr. Harford take a huge chunk of walnut and saw out a curved arm for a "hip-hugger" walnut chair with almost no layout. I watched him cut compound angles on glue blocks for sofas/settees with no trimming. A trip to the glue pot, dopple it up and jam it in place....move on. The speed and precision was amazing. I do a lot of work with youth. As I mentioned, I am a pastor. I see a lot of troubled teens who have precious few role models. I guess I'll close this with a public "prayer".... may all of us be as open to teaching, mentoring, and sharing what we know with the neophyte galoot as Mr. Eckhardt and Mr. Harford were. Happy toolin' Tom Johnson 11217 Kenworth Lane, Lakeville, MN 55044 ---- Start of Message 15319 ---- From: Thomas Ellis Date: 1997-03-18 20:56:00 Subject: Re: grinders, and the need for them... Author: dawson@p... at Internet Date: As an example, I got a wooden jointer from Patrick with an iron that was strongly radiused....and the crown of the radius was off center. Much easier using the hand grinder to fix this than stones or paper. I agree that an electric one is scary, especially for irons you may not be able to replace. -Tom Ellis ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: grinders, and the need for them... Author: dawson@p... at Internet Date: 3/18/97 2:38 PM [ Lots of discussion about electric grinders, tamped. ] You don't need a grinder if you have good stones and can use them - unless, perhaps, you abuse your tools. The only occasions when I've even thought about a grinder is in dealing with pre-owned edge tools that the previous owner has abused. In which case they generally need a lot more work than simply doing a new bevel, and are not worth your time given the choice. What a grinder could accomplish there is the least of your troubles. When people are talking about grinders here, are you talking about re-conditioning badly abused tools that you have purchased, or do you really mean that you grind down your tools as a matter of course when you work with them? Doug Dawson dawson@p... Just say, the thought of all that old metal being flushed away is kind of scary. ---- Start of Message 15320 ---- From: Bob Brode Date: 1997-03-18 21:11:00 Subject: Re: grinders, and the need for them... Doug Dawson - >... > The only occasions when I've even thought about a grinder is > in dealing with pre-owned edge tools that the previous owner > has abused. In which case they generally need a lot more > work than simply doing a new bevel, and are not worth your > time given the choice. What a grinder could accomplish > there is the least of your troubles. >... Apparently I come up against different used tools than you do. :^) I'd say that the majority of old edge-tools I encounter require signficant work on their cutting edges, e.g. bad/rounded/out-of-square bevel angle, nicks, small corner broken off, molding profile unevenly worn, etc. But these correctable defects by themselves aren't enough to render the tool as a whole useless, and in fact are usually the only thing keeping them from being useful. For me the grinder has been a great timesaver in these reshaping jobs. (Zirconia paper is great stuff for some purposes, but personally I haven't found it to remove material faster than a power grinder with coarse wheel.) Bob Brode ---- Start of Message 15321 ---- From: Matthew Werner Date: 1997-03-18 21:37:00 Subject: teak prices Locally, plantation grown teak goes for about $10 or 12 a bd ft. MAtt Werner Santa Cruz, CA ---- Start of Message 15322 ---- From: Cliff Braisted Date: 1997-03-18 21:42:00 Subject: Re: grinders At 12:09 PM 3/17/97, Andrew Barss wrote: > > It's commonly agreed that the usual cheaper grinders go >way too fast (3000 RPM and up) to safely use on tools without >care, quenching, etc. I've finally met a tool I have to grind (2 >1/2" chisel with the end snapped off), and I'm curious why *no* >inexpensive grinder rotates slow enough to be optimal for >handtools. Is it really eight- to ten-times as expensive to >build a grinder that goes at 800 RPM? Or is there an enormous >market for higher-speed grinders, so that the slow ones are a >niche market? If so, what is the usual market for regular >grinders, if it isn't woodworking tool users? > > -- Andrew > What about those hand grinders. THey come in a varity of sizes and different kinds of natural and man made stones on them. They go at whatever speed you choose to turn the crank. No electric, no motor, Nice music playing in background. I have several of these beauties and they are much much cheaper than even those cheap electric ones. Cliff B. ---- Start of Message 15323 ---- From: Walt Stein Date: 1997-03-18 20:44:00 Subject: Stanley "100-plus" info sought -- [ From: Walt Stein * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- According to Walters latest volume, a Stanley "scarce variation" is(are?) the 1929 issue of everlasting type socket chisels with composition rubber handles "colored to resemble tropical hardwood". A local dealer has what I believe is a set of these, one of which still retains the original "100- plus"decal. All are deeply stamped with the stanley name within a rectangle with coved corners. There are seven in all, six of which appear to be full length, and one of which has the cutting tip broken off (maybe 1/2 inch worth is gone). There is no box. The same dealer also has a "one-hundred plus" brace 923 10" (with original label on the top). Since I am not a collector, I have several questions and would appreciate some help with the following: Are these actually a scarce variation, and if so, what is the relationship between scarcity and collector's value? Does scarcity always represent high value? Would these items be of particular interest, and what, roughly, might they be worth? Any help much appreciated. Yours, Walt ---- Start of Message 15324 ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1997-03-18 21:55:00 Subject: Re: grinders, and the need for them... On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Doug Dawson wrote: > When people are talking about grinders here, are you talking > about re-conditioning badly abused tools that you have > purchased, or do you really mean that you grind down your > tools as a matter of course when you work with them? > > Doug Dawson > dawson@p... I started this thread. I purposefully don't own a power grinder, and am glad for it: I think if I'd had one when I started using old tools, I would have followed the standard sharpening advice (in e.g. all magazine articles on chisels and plane blades, Tage Frid's book, Kingshott, etc) and ground my tools as a regular thing, and my plane blades and chisels would have been needlessly shortened. I realized I didn't need one the day I took a beautiful L. & I.J. White 1 3/4" paring chisel, which had a 1/8" chip out of it (from a past owner), and restored the bevel using nothing more than a little sandpaper on a marble tile (i.e., Scary Sharp). This, plus polishing the back, took less than ten minutes. I removed no more metal than was necessary, overheating wasn't an issue, and this convinced me that a power grinder is plain unnecessary for regular tool maintenance, even taking care of chipped blades. (I do own a hand grinder, but have been unable to locate a 4" replacement wheel for it). The current need on my part, which made me post about grinder speed a few days ago, is I acquired a 2 1/2" socketed paring chisel, in quite nice condition except the cutting end is broken right off: where the bevel/bezel should be, there's a 90-degree angle to the faces of the chisel, and this squared-off edge slants some, so one side of the chisel is about 1/8" or more longer than the other side. I have no idea what happened to the poor thing. A fair amount of metal has to be removed to restore it to working condition. I think though, that I'm very comfortable in not owning a grinder. I'd hate to burn an old chisel or plane blade. So, I asked about grinder speed mostly academically -- couldn't figure out why everyone who owns a grinder has to develop tricks to keep from damaging the tool, when other woodworking tools (like drills) have substantially slower motors. Anyway, I'll restore my chisel by hand, or maybe resurrect my belt sander for the task! My thanks to all who responded to the original note -- very informative. -- Andrew ---- Start of Message 15325 ---- From: Hugh Brown Date: 1997-03-18 13:55:00 Subject: Eggbeater tuneup? I have an eggbeater drill I picked up last year. There's nothing particularly special about it, but I got it 'cuz it filled a niche, was particularly smooth running, and it was cheap. It's no longer smooth running. It has gotten quite stiff to turn. I haven't used it very much; life has come between me and woodworking for the past few months. I haven't abused it (unless it be through ignorance). I tried lubrication and some mindless tinking, but nothing seems to affect it. When I picked it up this morning, it turned smoothly for one revolution, then tightened down. Any idea what's going on here? Can I do something to tune it up, or did I just get a lemon? Thanks, Hugh ---- Start of Message 15326 ---- From: Walter Barry Date: 1997-03-18 11:31:00 Subject: grinders Andrew wrote: > It's commonly agreed that the usual cheaper grinders go > way too fast (3000 RPM and up) to safely use on tools without > care, quenching, etc. I've finally met a tool I have to grind (2 > 1/2" chisel with the end snapped off), and I'm curious why *no* > inexpensive grinder rotates slow enough to be optimal for > handtools..... Most grinders operate around +/-3450rpm. NOT just cheap imports, but including better ones made by Baldor, and mine by Milwaukee. I could write a lot about various alternatives, from slow speed grinders, alternative motors, belt sanders, hand-cranked, treadle based, etc.etc. My opinion, get a high-speed bench grinder anyway. They are very useful for cutting/coloring many different metals using a variety buffing wheels and compounds. Sometimes a quality wire wheel can really come in handy, but be careful. A hard felt wheel can polish an edge, in-between honings, to restore razor sharpness in just seconds. And for creating a primary bevel, a bench grinder is fast and easy, and it can create a nice hollow ground that a flat belt just cannot match. Your problem, is how to avoid overheating. Most of that lies in understanding the causes, and in adjusting your technique. #1 Buy a white aluminum-oxide grinding wheel, specifically designed for grinding of tool steel. They break down faster, so run cooler. That said, I've got the standard Milwaukee 36grit silicon-carbide sitting on my grinder right now, and I still don't overheat. #2 Dress the wheel often, the embedded metal particles generate a lot of the heat, and prevent the wheel from grinding effectively. A diamond point dresser, in a simple jig is best. #3 Avoid jigs, but make sure you have an adjustable rest. Then the right index finger on the bevel side can reference off the rest like it's a fence, while the left index finger can be held up close to the edge on the back side to "feel" for heat. #4 Use the bottom of the rest to pivot, and lay the edge into the wheel, and immediately move evenly across the width of the blade. Don't pause in one place or you might overheat. #5 Lift the tool at the end of each pass to pause. Quench after a few passes. Then quench more often as the edge gets thinner. #6 If possible, grind a few blades at once, and once the edges begin to get thinner, cycle through them, so each gets a chance to cool. #7 And without a doubt, the easiest way to prevent overheating is to leave plenty of steel for the heat to dissipate. The biggest mistake people make is trying to create a "sharp" edge. Do that while honing. Grinders are for establishing a primary bevel. When the edge gets too thin (aka."sharp") the heat has no place to go, and an edge can blue in a split second. An easy way to control this is to square the edge before grinding. Apply some layout dye on the blade's back, mark a straight edge, square to the sides (or semi-square to balance both sides ). Then grind an reference "flat" across the edge, to that reference line, while holding the blade "almost" horizontal. Now when grinding, don't attempt to create a "sharp" edge. Just grind the bevel until a very slight +/-1/64" flat remains. That is quickly removed when the +5 degree secondary or micro-bevel is created while honing at a course/medium honing stone, or by using silicon-carbide or alumina-zirconia paper on a surface plate. Last, don't grind more than necessary. Once a primary 25 degree bevel is established, you should easily get a dozen honings before your next trip to the machine. And with a leather strop or hard-felt wheel, get a few polishings in between honings. Some normites must actually attempt to use a grinder to create a final edge. Leave a small flat to help dissipate the heat, and let your honing stones do the rest. BTW, use "blue" alumina-zirconia belts/paper on a surface plate to create a fast flat mirror surface onto the back of your blades. Once done, that surface is easily mantained on your sharpening stones. This AZ stuff is harder and cuts metal faster than silicon-carbide. Hence it's name, QuickLap(tm). Walter ---- Start of Message 15327 ---- From: Bob Brode Date: 1997-03-18 23:41:00 Subject: Re: BIG Wood... (and maebiki) Doug Dawson: > Actually... that tree may even be too large > for a maebiki, which has a range of a few feet. The log in the picture mentioned appears to be about five feet in diameter, and I've seen several other pictures of similar-sized logs that have been halved with a maebiki...but I should say maebikiS, since these big ones are apparently handled by two sawyers working in tandem from opposite sides of the trunk, alternating strokes (which is one reason for the blunt ends, so they don't collide). Almost like a two-man saw that's been disconnected in the middle. Bob Brode ---- Start of Message 15328 ---- From: SBMarcus Date: 1997-03-18 22:30:00 Subject: Re: teak prices > Locally, plantation grown teak goes for about $10 or 12 a bd ft. > > MAtt Werner > Santa Cruz, CA About the same here in Maine Bruce ---- Start of Message 15329 ---- From: Aaron Ionta Date: 1997-03-18 22:41:00 Subject: great tool drooling places in Vermont hello fellow tool droolers and GG's I am going to be driving to Vermont from Minneapolis, MN this July and wanted to see if any of you had any kewl tool places to visit in Vermont and along the way. This will mostly be just gawking unless I find something that I can justify buying to SWMBO who is generally a real good sport. OTOH she will be on the lookout for Quilt shops so I have that to compete with. Thanks in advance Life on the porch is great! Aaron, who still hasn't properly date his planes yet! -- \\\\\\\\\\\ ////////////////////// @ ////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\ Aaron R. Ionta IntraNet Solutions Inc. 9625 West 76th St. Suite #150 Eden Prairie, Minnesota 55344 aaron.ionta@i... Support Phone 888-688-8324 - Toll Free 612-903-2020 Direct Line 612-903-2032 ---- Start of Message 15330 ---- From: J. Gunterman Date: 1997-03-18 22:49:00 Subject: Re: More Panel Raising... At 1:29 PM -0500 3/18/97, John Crane wrote: > O.K. So what's a Mullet? Down in S.W. FL it refers to a _really_ stupid fish. L8r, John ---- Start of Message 15331 ---- From: J. Gunterman Date: 1997-03-18 23:48:00 Subject: Re: froes At 9:07 AM -0500 3/5/97, Tim O'Hearn wrote: >Froes - I want one. I got one, and you can't have it !! It was actually the first ever "oldtool" I ever bought! A fellow Galoot down Amish Way foud it for me and sent it to me. I love it! > How thick should the metal be, opposite the sharp end? Well Karen just bought me "the woodwright shop" (Roy's first book) this weekend and he goes into great detail on making one out of an old Leaf spring..... seems like something even _I_ could do w/ only an anvil and a MAPP torch w/ (a difuser tip) ohh and the "sharp" end is NOT _sharp_ it is more like the "sharpness" of a butter knife (if even that sharp) L8r, John ---- Start of Message 15332 ---- From: Patrick Leach Date: 1997-03-19 00:12:00 Subject: Re: Usefulness of Stanley #164 There are a coupla reasons why the #164 was a flop: 1) Its debut came during the rise of paint-by-numbers woodworking, and at the worst possible time, from an economical standpoint, the Great Depression. It was doomed from the get-go; 2) The plane is 9 inches long, and is really no different (in function) than the #65, which measures in at 7 inches long. It seems hard to imagine that someone would pony up the extra clamage to buy a plane that did pretty much what the cheaper block plane did; 3) Another reason, which I'm keeping to myself since if I spill my guts here, it may end up in someone else's book. It'll be in B&G, when I get off my fat ass to finish it. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Leach Just say Never know who's watching. etc. Check IT out at http://www.intool.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 15333 ---- From: Carl Muhlhausen Date: 1997-03-18 23:00:00 Subject: Re: grinders, and the need for them... > > [ Lots of discussion about electric grinders, tamped. ] > > When people are talking about grinders here, are you talking > about re-conditioning badly abused tools that you have > purchased, or do you really mean that you grind down your > tools as a matter of course when you work with them? > > Doug Dawson > dawson@p... > > Just say, the thought of all that old metal being flushed away > is kind of scary. > I only use my grinder for real basket cases, but this is primarily because I lack skill with it. My father, a retired machinist, uses his grinder all the time. He's so not concerned with preserving a precious bit of metal as he is with getting the job done. A lot of the carving tools I've got were hand made by him from old files and bits of tool steel and the grinder was used for much of the shaping. He'd get a good laugh if he saw me spending a half hour or more rehoning a bevel on a sanding belt because I was afraid to use a grinder. Carl Carl W. Muhlhausen ledzep@e... Rm. 1B-115L or ledzep@a... AT&T BCS 307 Middletown-Lincroft Rd. Lincroft, NJ 07738 Personal Web page at: http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/2790 ---- Start of Message 15334 ---- From: Patrick White Date: 1997-03-18 22:58:00 Subject: Re: grinders (warning, tailed apprentice "plug") > > >Is it really eight- to ten-times as expensive to build a grinder > > >that goes at 800 RPM? Or is there an enormous market for > Small mandrels are easily available from hardware stores >... This is sort of a plug for a tailed apprentice, and as such, I know it isn't exactly topical for this list. However, there is a tradeoff between time maintaining tools and time using them, and this group doesn't seem to be too against the tailed apprentices for things other than woodworking. #define TAILED_APPRENTICE_PLUG_ON From my Norm days, I once coveted power tools and still get a few catalogs from such places. The Grizzly Imports company has a tailed grinder that has both a 3280 RPM 4.5" x .75" wheel and a 70 RPM 10" x 2" wheel that runs in a water bath for around $130. Try 1-800-523-4777 (east of Mississippi River) or 1-800-542-5537 (west). The mandatory disclaimer is that I just still get their catalogs (and occasionally purchase the odd handtool I can't find a used version of through them). #undef TAILED_APPRENTICE_PLUG_ON Me, I'm going to go the hand grinder route first if I can find one, and that's only because I'm slightly into making my own edge tools and think I might get into doing so more (if I ever sort out the metalworking hardening, etc. stuff). The hand grinder is cheaper, I could probably rig up a treadle to it if I wanted, and the tailed apprentice will still be there if I decide that's the way to go. -- later, Pat White (work: patbob@s..., (503) 578-3463, fax: (503) 578-5797) Aloha, Oregon: USDA zone 8, Sunset zone 6 (or so they say) ---- Start of Message 15335 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-18 15:51:00 Subject: Re: grinders Inquires Paul Gillespie: Oldtools question: Has anyone ever considered making a treadle-powered grinding station out of one of those mandrel thingies you can buy? VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV H = Horizontal Wheel V = Vertical Wheel VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV D = Differential S = Shaft HH S HH HH DD HH A few years ago I picked up a Luther Hummer bicycle HH DDDD HH style pedal girnder. While sitting on the seat, I HH DDDDDD HH keep the grinding wheels a lower rib cage height. HH DDDDDDDDDD HH The shaft comes up from the pedals to a differential HHsssssDDDDDDDDDDDssssHH that has two wheels rotating vertically and one HH DDDDDDDDDD HH wheel rotating horizontally. This old beast is the HH DDDDDDDD HH only grinder I have in the shop and it is used for HH DDDDDD HH turning chisels. The output speed can be operated HH DDDD HH real slow to almost all but eliminate any burning HH SS HH of the steel. This allows one to keep three SS different grit wheels on at one time so I can spend SS turning time turning and not dinking with a log of sharpening games. There are a multitude of height and angle adjustments that can be set with three brackets that are provided. There's also a bracket for sharpeing cycle bar, but I haven't had a need to do that yet. :-) Well worth looking for one of these old beasts. I've seen similiar styled twin grinder wheel cycle bar grinders around that don't have the brackets to support the bar stock so they're "useless" for that purpose. But with a minimal of modification, they can have brackets made to support standard chisels. Stephen Butti University Hospital sbutti@u... for private e-mail Denver, CO w 303-372-2215 When ideas fail, words come in very handy. Goethe ---- Start of Message 15336 ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1997-03-18 15:51:00 Subject: Re: More Panel Raising... At 9:49 AM -0800 3/18/97, Paul Houtz wrote: [Snip of paean to holdfasts] >I also made a discovery that y'all probably knew already..... >In the morning, a candle was lying on the bench. I put my jack down on >it, and when I picked it up to plane with it, totally different experience! > >So I hit the bottom of all my planes with the candle wax. Incredible! >Now I can really feel the shape of the stock with my plane. I am getting >much better results. If you haven't, try it. You'll like it! I got a similar experience after starting to use reg'lar Johnson's paste wax as an all over final protectant for planes, following (minimal) cleaning, SS (tm) on iron, and final tuning. One wouldn't think there'd be all that much difference between smooth, clean cast iron; and smooth, clean cast iron with a few molecules of paste wax polished onto it--but there is. I'm sure Paul didn't leave enough parafin (likely composition of candle wax) to constitute an excess, but I might be a little concerned about wiping residue on the workpiece, and possibly affecting glue absorption, finish blotching, and the like. With hard polished paste wax, I'm not thus worried. Tom Holloway ---- Start of Message 15337 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-19 00:27:00 Subject: Re: 4 square In the Walter Pocket Guide I recently picked up, there is a section on a line of Stanley tools called "Four Square," including a little bit of everything in the standard WW list, plus a pipe wrench, hatchet.... They all seem to have this neat logo, with, would you believe it, four little squares forming one bigger square. Was a line for beginners? A "boy's tool chest," or what? Any idea what period it was produced? Nothing to ID--just curious. Tom Holloway, John states in his book that it was an inexpensive line of 23 hand tools. These items were Stanley's first focus on the do-it-yourself market, starting in 1923. These tools are highly collected by persons such as myself. Even though they were a cheaper tool back then there better than anything they sell now. Bill (IF your interested in buying the book I have them 4 sale) ---- Start of Message 15338 ---- From: Patrick Leach Date: 1997-03-19 00:06:00 Subject: Re: Eldred's Auction review Jim Cook jimc@n... writes: >For attendees, the pricing was really great, with things like a Stanley >#1 going for $325 (yes you heard right, $325!). I think it had some >overcleaning or repair done to it, but I missed exactly what. A #97 >went for $525, a stanley chute plane and chute went for only about $300. >I really wish I'd had a little bit deeper pockets to bid on some of >those pieces. Be thankful that your pockets weren't that deep. The #1 had a repair to it, as well as having been dunked in japanning in a drum, not to mention the tote was a hideous replacement. The entire front portion of the plane had been re-welded to the rest of the plane. The #51 and #52 had the usual problem encountered with this tool; the hold down clamp and the T-shaped pin were MIA. Both of these 'features' are the kiss of death for the tool. The #97 was nice, but the knob didn't seem to match the rest of the plane, as far as condition is concerned. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Leach Just say I thought most of the stuff in the auction was heinous. etc. Check IT out at http://www.intool.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Start of Message 15339 ---- From: Patrick Leach Date: 1997-03-19 00:30:00 Subject: Re: More Panel Raising... Someone aksed: > O.K. So what's a Mullet? It's a scrap chunk of wood, usually a cutoff from a grooved stile, used to gauge the thickness of the panel's bevel. You run the mullet along the edge of the panel to test the fit. If the mullet hangs up on the panel, the bevel of the panel needs to have a bit more removed from it. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Leach Just say Using piscean mullets will give you smelly grooves. etc. Check IT out at http://www.intool.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Start of Message 15340 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-19 00:38:00 Subject: re;#77 Id'a replied privately, but I have an additional question: The Pocket Guide lists cutters in sizes of 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, in range of $50-100; and 5, 7, 9, and 11/16 in range of $75-150. Has anyone ever seen one of these contraptions with anything other than the 3/8" cutter installed? Tom I have this machine with a complete set of cutters and some of them in there original boxes. They are extremely hard to come by complete. I just sold a complete one yesterday also. They get about a grand with all the cutters. Bill Hermanek Stanley collector ---- Start of Message 15341 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-19 00:41:00 Subject: Re: Walter's book Just last Thursday (3/13) I wandered down to the local Woodcraft store and bought the soft cover one "off the shelf" (well, really out of the shipping box it had just arrived in). They had two hardcover copies on the wall. Didn't see any pocket guides. They did mention that they sell very fast, so I presume I was just at the right place on the right evening. I have them for sale if you need one, the pocket guide or the big book. Bill Hermanek Stanley crazy ---- Start of Message 15342 ---- From: Alan P. Kefauver Date: 1997-03-19 00:44:00 Subject: Veritas Scraper insert I just got back from Quarryville PA with a wagon full of wide curley Cherry. Yesterday, I bought a Veritas Scraper insert (2"). I took an old Jack plane with a corrugated sole and installed the scraper insert. The blade adjusting lug was so long on this plane that I mounted an old blade behind the insert. Jackplaned the rough cherry, smoothed it with a #3. Then Scraped it with the Veritas insert plane rig. Wow! Even, long whispy shavings as thin as a veil. Smooth as a whatever's butt. The Cherry took on an irridescence (sp?) I haven't seen before. I am sold on this insert thing. It is remarkably consistent stroke after stroke. No corner marks even though I didn't ease the scraper corners. Just an FYI from a Galoot wannabe. ---- Start of Message 15343 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-19 00:48:00 Subject: RE: E.T. Burrow's COULD YOU LOOK IN THE INTERNET OR PUT OUT AN INQUIRY ABOUT A RULER MAKER? > >I HAVE A TWO FOLD SLIDING YARD STICK WITH THE NAME E.T. BURROWES & CO. >PORTLAND, M. E. DATED MARCH 24, 1891. > >I CANNOT FIND ANYTHING IN MY BOOKS ABOUT THIS. > >THANKS > >DOUG Doug This guy made screen windows. A free plane came with it when you bought it. The planes are sought after by collectors. The rule is probaly to measure the windows. Bill Hermanek Stanley collector with an ET Burrow's plane ---- Start of Message 15344 ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 1997-03-19 01:15:00 Subject: Re: Farming out moldings: was Galoot progress... At 05:16 PM 3/15/97 -0500, SBMarcus wrote: > >If making things with hand tools is a luxury that we can afford (for most >of you in your "spare" time) What did those who were artisans in the good >old days do for fun? Talking to the old-timers around here, back when there >still were any, two things, depending on you inclination- Drink or go to >church. > Well the old say goes, that an idle hand is the Devil's tool.....from my reading, t'wert too many idle moments. Many activities were done by the light of the fireplace, and there's lots of farm work before sunrise. Tony ___________________________________________________________________ One is an interest Two is a collection Three is an obsession ___________________________________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 15345 ---- From: Anthony Seo Date: 1997-03-19 01:25:00 Subject: Hurchalla Auction For any and all who might be interested, Barry Hurchalla is having a tool auction this Sat at his usual location. Auction starts at 9:30, weather permitting or not, there will be the usual assortment of tailgaters braving the elements ahead of time. Anyone who wants directions, let me know. Tony ___________________________________________________________________ One is an interest Two is a collection Three is an obsession ___________________________________________________________________ ---- Start of Message 15346 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-19 01:30:00 Subject: Yankee 31A screwdriver GG's: A North Bros. 31 is sort of a monster of a push screwdriver. I've read FS posts for the 30 and for smaller versions. I'm wondering about value. I spend my tool budget on tools, rather than price guides and I end up in the dark most of the time. Any help would make my insurance schedule of "strange stuff" a bit more accurate. Gene ---- Start of Message 15347 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-19 01:30:00 Subject: Stanley 151 shave GG's: Does anyone have a 151R spokeshave with the convex sole? I need to compare notes. I found one but suspect that it is a modified 151. It belonged to a patternmaker. Any patternmaker has access to a tool&die shop to make some neatly done mods... I'd appreciate some help, and I think it would take only one e-mail trade. Thanks, Gene ---- Start of Message 15348 ---- From: J. Gunterman Date: 1997-03-19 00:10:00 Subject: Re: Planemaking---very long At 2:55 PM -0500 3/18/97, Robert Brazile wrote: >>I am about to embark (time permitting) on making a panel plane. I could, if >>people were interested, take a photo document of the making progress to >>encourage people to do the same... >I suspect I speak for others when I say that there is considerable interest >in such a thing. Ohh PLEASE do share your experinces! I am still sorely in need of one and my experiments in raising panels using "regular" planes have failed miserably. But to make a plane .. that I bet I could do! maybee we could commision Ron Hock to make up a batch of spiffy blades for our endeavours!?!?! L8r, John ---- Start of Message 15349 ---- From: J. Gunterman Date: 1997-03-19 01:05:00 Subject: Re: More Panel Raising... >>So I hit the bottom of all my planes with the candle wax. Incredible! > I got a similar experience after starting to use reg'lar Johnson's >paste wax as an all over final protectant for planes, following (minimal) >cleaning, SS (tm) on iron, and final tuning. I have finally found _my_ ideal final treatment for my planes after thier initial "clean-up". while they are still "warm" from the oven I wipe them down liberally w/ Mothers Gold(tm) carnuba paste wax. the stuff "melts in" and when ithe plane cools I buff it out by hand w/ a rag. after using tha plane I wipe the sole down w/ that same rag to give it a light coating of wax. I have all but stopped rust, my planes shine nicely and it is entirely reversable(I hope). ohh yeah, the just schwiiiing across the surface..... really nice! L8r, John ---- Start of Message 15350 ---- From: Patrick White Date: 1997-03-19 02:01:00 Subject: Re: Eggbeater tuneup? > I have an eggbeater drill I picked up last year. There's > nothing particularly special about it, but I got it 'cuz > it filled a niche, was particularly smooth running, and > it was cheap. > It's no longer smooth running. It has gotten quite stiff > to turn. I haven't used it very much; life has come between >.. > to affect it. When I picked it up this morning, it > turned smoothly for one revolution, then tightened down. I'll take a stab at it since I haven't seen any other replies... If the thing sticks in the same place and is free part or the rest of the turn, then it's probably a burr of metal, an out-of-round bearing or a (now?) bent shaft. A drop will typically do such things. If it is sticky all the way, it may simply be that the grease has hardened. You can try a temporary fix like WD-40, which will dissolve some of the grease as you work it and keep it flowing for a while. I don't know if these things have ball bearings, but a lost ball of the complement can sometimes cause binding. Either way, you could probably disassemble and clean any old sticky grease off and at least figure out what part is sticking, or where it's sticking. If like mine, the large wheel will come off with a screw. I haven't figured out how to remove the gears in the handle to get at the bearings there though so can't help with that. hope that helps. -- later, Pat White (work: patbob@s..., (503) 578-3463, fax: (503) 578-5797) Aloha, Oregon: USDA zone 8, Sunset zone 6 (or so they say) ---- Start of Message 15351 ---- From: John L. Letsche Date: 1997-03-18 22:33:00 Subject: oldtools@listserv.law.cornell.eduoldtools@listserv.law.cornPanel plane Project: J. Gunterman wrote: > > Ohh PLEASE do share your experinces! > I am still sorely in need of one and my experiments in raising panels using > "regular" planes have failed miserably. > But to make a plane .. that I bet I could do! > maybee we could commision Ron Hock to make up a batch of spiffy blades for > our endeavours!?!?! > > -> L8r, > John This sound's like a good project!! I wonder if a transitional jack plane could be modified? If it is possible, we could agree to use a particular width and if we asked real nice, perhaps Ron could make a blade with the proper profile? John Letsche West Milford, NJ. ---- Start of Message 15352 ---- From: Doug Dawson Date: 1997-03-19 02:07:00 Subject: Deep Philosophy of Grinding Old Tools, or, How I learned to stop worrying and lo > >... > > The only occasions when I've even thought about a grinder is > > in dealing with pre-owned edge tools that the previous owner > > has abused. In which case they generally need a lot more > > work than simply doing a new bevel, and are not worth your > > time given the choice. What a grinder could accomplish > > there is the least of your troubles. > >... > Apparently I come up against different used tools than you do. :^) > > I'd say that the majority of old edge-tools I encounter require signficant > work on their cutting edges, e.g. bad/rounded/out-of-square bevel angle, > nicks, small corner broken off, molding profile unevenly worn, etc. But > these correctable defects by themselves aren't enough to render the tool as > a whole useless, and in fact are usually the only thing keeping them from > being useful. If you stop and pause over this, you've raised a most fascinating point. Let's consider why these tools were "disposed of". Do we dare assume that the reason why they were found at a flea market or auction or whatever, is because they didn't work anymore because the cutting edge was bad/rounded/out-of-square and so forth? I'd have to defer to Patrick and the other oldtool historians on this, but I rather think not. One might assume that these were working tools _then_, and they are working tools _now_. With the possible exception of tools that have been seriously damaged by rust, I'm not convinced that any of these tools need to have their bevels etc. monkeyed with to get them to work. To the point, having to mess drastically ( i.e. grinder-ize ) the bevels etc. of these edges, is, one might argue, _us_ _imposing_ what we think a tool should "look like", on tools that were in all likelihood working justfinethanks in the first place. It would be interesting and thought-provoking to hear other peoples' comments on this perhaps heretical notion. Doug Dawson dawson@p... Just say, Ancients indeed, etc. ---- Start of Message 15353 ---- From: Hal Laurent Date: 1997-03-19 02:16:00 Subject: What's a Mullet (was RE: More Panel Raising... ) John Crane[SMTP:crane@t...] said: O.K. So what's a Mullet? I get the list in Digest mode, so someone's probably already answered this one, but just in case: A mullet is a piece of scrap wood the same thickness as your rails and stiles that you ploughed a groove in identically in width and depth to the one in the rails and stiles. While planing the panel you use the mullet to test whether or not you've obtained the correct thickness at the edge of the panel. ---- Start of Message 15354 ---- From: Larry Williams Date: 1997-03-19 02:33:00 Subject: Re: Cork Borer Roger Birkhead wrote: Paul Comino, and Trevor Robinson nailed this one. As suprising as it may be I even used one of these things once in Chem lab in college...and I graduated in 1995! Anyway a set of cork borers and a sharpener are great to have around the shop for making leather washers for chisel handles etc. Ok! When I read the description of this thing it sounded very much like my experiment at making a tool to make conical eyed escapements for rabbet planes and such. My experiment didn't work very well.8^( Too big a mouth on the sucker, I guess. It just had too much tear-out when cutting against the grain. Tell me, how big is the mouth on a cork borer? Can you get one with about 1 1/4" large diameter? Where are they available? Do they make them with two cutters rather than one? Has anyone tried one of these in wood? At what angle do the two sides meet at? Gotta know more! Why did I spend a day making something that already exists? Think I'll go beat my head against the wall. ;^) Larry Williams who'll re-invent the wheel yet ---- Start of Message 15355 ---- From: Jim Cosgrove Date: 1997-03-19 02:33:00 Subject: RE: Lie-Nielsen #62 questions At 09:19 AM 3/18/97 -0800, scot.e.echols@e... wrote: >Scott wrote... I recently >The original iron >on this plane has been used to the point that it no longer reaches the >work, so I have not yet had the opportunity to enjoy using it. Lie-Nielsen sells replacement blades for the original No. 62. Cost is $30 plus shipping. --James Cosgrove ---- Start of Message 15356 ---- From: Norman Witt Date: 1997-03-19 02:53:00 Subject: Re: grinders, and the need for them... Doug Dawson wrote: > When people are talking about grinders here, are you talking > about re-conditioning badly abused tools that you have > purchased, or do you really mean that you grind down your > tools as a matter of course when you work with them? The only time I use a grinder is for resurrecting abused tools in need of major surgery. The chisels I mentioned in my previous post needed significant stock removal to restore their bevels, and I used a grinder to get them reasonably close before switching to Scary Sharp plates. I usually start with 80 grit Aluminum Oxide/Zirconia for any major reshaping. The speed with which AlOZ removes metal never ceases to amaze me. Norm ---- Start of Message 15357 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-19 03:24:00 Subject: RECORD planes (are they crap?) Was just flipping thru a Wm. Alden Catalog, and saw these inexpensive planes built by the Record Company. Was wondering if anyone has seen/ heard/ used these and what they thought of them. --brant ---- Start of Message 15358 ---- From: Larry Williams Date: 1997-03-19 03:31:00 Subject: Re: Planemaking---very long J. Gunterman wrote of Simon's post: >>>I am about to embark (time permitting) on making a panel plane. I could, if >>>people were interested, take a photo document of the making progress to >>>encourage people to do the same... > > >Ohh PLEASE do share your experinces! >I am still sorely in need of one and my experiments in raising panels using >"regular" planes have failed miserably. >But to make a plane .. that I bet I could do! >maybee we could commision Ron Hock to make up a batch of spiffy blades for >our endeavours!?!?! > Ah...John. I think he's speaking of a British type infill plane rather than a panel raising plane. My how thing get confused. Poor Ron's gonna have to make some kinda iron if it's gonna work in both. Larry Williams who hopes he didn't anger John ---- Start of Message 15359 ---- From: Hal Laurent Date: 1997-03-19 03:34:00 Subject: Making moldings with scratch stocks GGs: I'm embarking on a project to make some (interior) shutters for the old house I live in (built in 1886). I have some of the original shutters to use as models. The shutters are frame and panel, with louvers instead of the panel for every fourth panel. The louvered section are going to be quite an adventure, but my question for today is about the paneled sections. The panels are not raised (a bit to my chagrin, as I wanted to try some raised panels). They are flat panels, but surrounded by a molding that seems to be more or less what at least one of my books calls a "Grecian ogee". The Grecian ogee example on page 30 of "Fine Woodworking on Planes and Chisels" is pretty close, except that the angled part at the low end of the molding isn't quite as sharp. The molding profile is approximately 3/4 inch wide by about 5/16 inch deep. My question is, can I manage to shape a molding of like this with a homemade scratch stock? Are there limits to the size and shape of things that are doable with scratch stocks? I'm planning to use a bunch of poplar I have hanging around and stain it to match the dark brown originals with aniline dyes. And if this isn't feasible to do with scratch stocks, how in the world do I describe this thing to try to buy an appropriate molding plane? Thanks in advance for any help. ---- Start of Message 15360 ---- From: Bob Johnson Date: 1997-03-19 03:37:00 Subject: Teak Prices GG, Thanks for the many responses to my question on the price of Teak Lumber. It would seem that the price depends on where you live, with the highest prices being inland and the lower prices being on either coast. The range of prices was from $10 per board foot to $21 per board foot. This gives the information I need to dicker with the Gent that has this Teak for sale. Thanks again. Bob ---- Start of Message 15361 ---- From: Mike Davies Date: 1997-03-19 03:38:00 Subject: Re:Disston Gloat: Davies / Digest 1282 (Irv extended the history on the D-20/23 production dates still further, then asked) --- I'd sure enjoy examining that 1915 Disston Catalog, Mike! Is it a reprint or original? I have an original, and thanks to Ralph Brendler's efforts there is now a copy of it online at his web site. If you'll look at http://www.msc.net/~brendler/oldtools/disston/toc.htm you'll see the entire thing. It's not a large format catalog, just a roughly 3" by 6" pamphlet listing all the saws and some other relevant info. It is identical in format and size to the circa 1900 one that Gary Roberts has reproduced and made available. When I wrote yesterday I was going from memory when I quoted the date as 1915. Ralph has it listed as 1914. I haven't been able to find a publication date on it, but the reference to the 75th anniversary points to 1914 or 1915 depending on how you do the math (1840 plus 75). Thanks - Mike Mike Davies St. Louis ---- Start of Message 15362 ---- From: Jeff Gorman Date: 1997-03-18 09:32:00 Subject: Re: Sweet What?! Mack McKinney wrote: ~ I was perusing my copy of _The Complete Woodworker_ (gloat) by Bernard E. ~ Jones. On page 38 he makes a reference to "sweet oil" which he explicitly ~ notes as not linseed oil. Can anyone out there in Galootdom enlighten me on ~ what sweet oil is? According to my Chemical Synonyms and Trade Names, W Gardner, 1924, 'sweet oil' is colza oil, which in turn is Rapeseed oil from Brassica campestris. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman - West Yorkshire jeff@m... ---- Start of Message 15363 ---- From: eric coyle Date: 1997-03-19 04:40:00 Subject: Re: Sweet What?! At 09:32 AM 3/18/97 GMT, Jeff Gorman wrote: Mack McKinney wrote: ~ I was perusing my copy of _The Complete Woodworker_ (gloat) by Bernard E. ~ Jones. On page 38 he makes a reference to "sweet oil" which he explicitly ~ notes as not linseed oil. Can anyone out there in Galootdom enlighten me on ~ what sweet oil is? According to my Chemical Synonyms and Trade Names, W Gardner, 1924, 'sweet oil' is colza oil, which in turn is Rapeseed oil from Brassica campestris. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman - West Yorkshire jeff@m... Over here in the colonies, rapeseed oil is "canola" oil, which you can find on the same shelf with all the other vegetable oils..... Eric ---- Start of Message 15364 ---- From: eric coyle Date: 1997-03-19 04:40:00 Subject: Re: RECORD planes (are they crap?) At 10:24 PM 3/18/97 -0500, BEAddy@A... wrote: >Was just flipping thru a Wm. Alden Catalog, and saw these inexpensive planes >built by the Record Company. Was wondering if anyone has seen/ heard/ used >these and what they thought of them. > >--brant > Record makes good tools. I think the company is officially Record-Ridgeway, and they also have (had) acomprehensive line of plumbing stuff at least equivalent to Rigid, so they are right in there servicing a demanding market. I know that they were Record-Ridgeway-Marples for a while, and they may even be supplying all three brands still. They make some reasonable metal vices, which are often discounted, and some real good c-clamps. You know, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Stanley England castings are coming from the same place.... All that to say that they ain't crap. Eric ---- Start of Message 15365 ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1997-03-19 04:46:00 Subject: Re: RECORD planes (are they crap?) At 10:24 PM -0500 3/18/97, BEAddy@a... wrote: >Was just flipping thru a Wm. Alden Catalog, and saw these inexpensive planes >built by the Record Company. Was wondering if anyone has seen/ heard/ used >these and what they thought of them. Well, (and I mean this in the most congenial, non-judgmental way ;-) they are apparently up to the standards of Ian Kirby, because that's what he has himself photographed with in the WW articles I have seen by him. Tom Holloway who has and uses a couple of not-too-old Montgomery Ward brand planes, and likes them fine. ---- Start of Message 15366 ---- From: David R. Hunkins Date: 1997-03-19 06:03:00 Subject: Re: Teak Prices At 08:37 PM 3/18/97 -0700, Bob Johnson wrote: >GG, > >Thanks for the many responses to my question on the price of Teak Lumber. > >It would seem that the price depends on where you live, with the highest >prices being inland and the lower prices being on either coast. > >The range of prices was from $10 per board foot to $21 per board foot. > >This gives the information I need to dicker with the Gent that has this >Teak for sale. Thanks again. Bob, Now that you've got a line on prices, I just wanted to chime in with my $.015. I got a commission to build a teak entertainment center for a dude in MA years back. Teak because all his other furniture was modern Danish ... I needed the bucks, so slogged on. Working with teak was the most miserable woodworking experience! Now maybe the batch I had was unique in it's oil/mineral content ... others better versed in that devil-wood might know more than I. But I swore, and I've held to it, that I'd never work with the stuff again. The mineral content was higher than anything I've worked before or since, and I swear it dulled edge tools in nanoseconds. I was forever resharpening _everything_. And I had to clean all surfaces to be joined with acetone prior to gluing. Big PITA. I know it's an important marine wood ... maybe you absolutely need to use it. Can anyone else post positive experiences using teak? Only my opinion, but choose something else if you can! David ---- Start of Message 15367 ---- From: Richard Jackson Date: 1997-03-19 09:16:00 Subject: [Fwd: bio] Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 01:13:16 -0800 From: Richard Jackson toolstop@s... To: listserv@l... Subject: bioHi Galoots! My name is Rick Jackson an I'm a toolaholic. I'm not in a 12 step plan yet but my wife is hoping I will be soon. I'm a pharmacist in central PA. I've been a hobbyist woodworker for about 18 years. I started collecting tools because I watched Roy Underhill. Not long after attempting to use my "pure" hand tools I realized that I didn't want to sweat that much while working wood.(i also didn't know how to sharpen a blade then) Now my woodworking consists of a fine blend of horsepower and vintage edges. Not long after I started collecting tools I realized that I needed to find a way to get rid of some excess and thus became a small dealer. Some of my friends have been very helpful to me, Pat Leach, Jack Zimmerman, Dave Paling, Pete Taran, Clarence Blanchard and many others. They took me under wing and showed me the friendship side of tool collecting and dealing. Sometimes I think thats what drives me to go to these tool meetings. But anyway, I build primarily shaker style furniture for our house here in PA. I love to work with cherry wood and I love the simple lines. My wifes name is Sunday and we just had a son in January named Nicholas. Yes thats why you haven't seen me out lately in Pa. or Md. I'll finish there so as not to bore you any more. Rick Jackson toolstop@s... ---- Start of Message 15368 ---- From: Matt Prusik Date: 1997-03-19 06:53:00 Subject: Re: froes John: Okay, now that you have the froe, what do you do for the "froe club"? Put differently, how do you make or find one? Matt -- not trying to be funny here, but wanting an answer ... ---- Start of Message 15369 ---- From: Franklin Ferrier Date: 1997-03-19 07:14:00 Subject: Using a mullet and sizing that raised panel Of my few attempts at raised panels I have felt uncomfortable that I was sizing the panel appropriately and choosing the angle of the bevel well. Having made the calculation of how much allowance to make for seasonal movement of the panel, is there then some rule of thumb one may use for deciding on the width and depth of the groove for the stiles? Does one simply bevel the panel edge until it bottoms out snuggly in the mullet test? Some sketches I've seen in the texts seem to depict a rakish angle on the bevel which squeezes into the groove well before bottoming out. I'm working my way towards building some internal room doors and I'm concerned that I don't end up with panels that are too loose. Franklin, Just Say, Should I *read* the text? Perhaps the words are more than just for the people who can't read the pictures ;-) ---- Start of Message 15370 ---- From: Walt Henderson Date: 1997-03-19 12:07:00 Subject: Re: More Panel Raising... At 09:49 AM 3/18/97 -0800, you wrote: >Folks, > >I just want to describe my exhilerating experience last night of >raising a panel in a truly historical context. > snip > >I also made a discovery that y'all probably knew already. I was playing >with the idea of "Historical Context", and wondering about my electric >lights. I tried working with a candle and oil lamp. I decided that >in olden times, woodworkers did their work from dawn to dusk, with only >emergency work after daylight hours. > >In the morning, a candle was lying on the bench. I put my jack down on >it, and when I picked it up to plane with it, totally different experience! > >So I hit the bottom of all my planes with the candle wax. Incredible! >Now I can really feel the shape of the stock with my plane. I am getting >much better results. If you haven't, try it. You'll like it! > Congratulations Paul! Welcome to the "Experienced and the FEW"! You are on the road to hell in gasoline drawers . . . but you'll always feel warm! As you heard me rant before . . . to truly understand old tools, you need to understand them in the context of their time . . . and the folks who used them. Let me know if you want a source for "B Grease" (very period) . . . a mixture of tallow and a little bee's wax for lubricating your planes. Your Humble Servant, Walt H. Henderson & Vinci Historical Cabinetmakers & Joyners "At the Sign of the Plane" P.O. Box 1637 Leesburg, Virginia 20177 ---- Start of Message 15371 ---- From: Tim Fuss Date: 1997-03-19 12:28:00 Subject: Re: Grinders and the need for them Doug wrote: > The only occasions when I've even thought about a grinder is > in dealing with pre-owned edge tools that the previous owner > has abused. In which case they generally need a lot more > work than simply doing a new bevel, and are not worth your > time given the choice. I beg to differ, Doug. I have in my toolbox at home no fewer than a dozen gorgeous old chisels that have been rescued from varying degrees of abuse. Chipped edges, stray grinder digs, pitting... Noble names like Buck, Swan, Witherby, Barton and Marples that I couldn't bring myself to throw away (or pass up at a flea or garage sale). For a buck or two (okay, sometimes more) and some work, I get a chisel that I can be proud of. I'm now part of it's history. There's another benefit. Once I've invested the time to undo the ubuse, I'm extremely careful in my handling of the tool. I'm much less likely to abuse such a chisel. How many of you keep your chisels in a velvet lined drawer? Okay, that's only temporary until I build a dedicated cabinet for them! Okay, after all that, I can say that I don't use a grinder much. I don't have a slow turning one, and find that the Al/Z paper works great on the bevels. Flattening the backs is the hard part, and I don't see a grinder as much help there anyway. Avoiding a grinder helps me to remove no more metal than absolutely necessary. -- Tim Fuss (the Other Brother Galoot ) Now even further behind in his sharpening. Stay tuned for my next post and chisel gloat! Neat Old Stuff - old tools, classic cameras, vintage guitars... ---- Start of Message 15372 ---- From: Thomas R. Bruce Date: 1997-03-19 12:37:00 Subject: Attention archive shoppers. Gang: I continue to monkey with the archives, aiming in the general direction of improvement. There's been a fair amount of feedback about the changes thus far, much of it to the Moms rather than yours truly, and apparently some over on rec.norm, which I read now and then. The general gist confirms my suspicion that as usual on the Net no good deed goes unpunished (grin). Anyway, I thought it worthwhile to articulate exactly what the current list-archive policy is here: 1) We archive 2000 messages or 60 days worth, whichever is less. This reflects the idea that we're using the archive as a convenience, not an historic-preservation device. It serves to hold down the number of lurkers (they can lurk by browser), acts as a convenience for those who inadvertently delete or miss some postings, and can be an easier way for some to read list traffic. The thread editors are doing an admirable job of historic-archiving that what deserves it, IMHO, and there's no need to run a multi-gigabyte archive of outdated regional auction reports and St. Patrick's Day quips, of which there were none, to my enormous surprise. Personally I sent mail to O'Deen suggesting that he go chase a snake. I won't tell you how he chose to interpret that instruction. 2) There is a bug in the mhonarc software which causes messages older than the limit to be deleted just fine, but then fails to update the tables-of-contents, thread indices, etc. This is an honest-to-God piece of software dysfunctionality, the author is aware of it, and is fixing it in the next release, due soon. A bunch of you are encountering stale pointers in the older threads and mail lists. We (sort of) regret the error, as the BBC used to say. 3) Periodically the archive will drop some other message, or very occasionally a cluster of messages. It is not clear to me exactly what's causing this, but a likely explanation is burst-y, heavy traffic outpacing the ability of the software to handle multiple incoming messages -- it uses a very simple back-off-and-try-again method of avoiding deadlocks. Normally the only time we see this behavior is if there's been some nasty crash of listproc and a subsequent glut of accumulated traffic. As usual, creative suggestions are welcome.... Best, Tb. -- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ | Thomas R. Bruce trb2@c... | | Cornell Legal Information Institute 607-255-1221 | | "I also own a 1944 electric megaphone...the bell is 24" in diameter and | | it's battleship gray. If you want to feel Federal, it's the one for you."| | -- Tom Waits. | +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ ---- Start of Message 15373 ---- From: Kenneth Stagg Date: 1997-03-19 12:59:00 Subject: Re: Grinders and the need for them Tim Fuss wrote: > > Doug wrote: > > The only occasions when I've even thought about a grinder is > > in dealing with pre-owned edge tools that the previous owner > > has abused. In which case they generally need a lot more > > work than simply doing a new bevel, and are not worth your > > time given the choice. > > I beg to differ, Doug. I have in my toolbox at home no fewer than a > dozen gorgeous old chisels that have been rescued from varying degrees > of abuse. Chipped edges, stray grinder digs, pitting... In my case two of my scrub planes had their irons ground off flat by the previous owners. I did try reshaping with sandpaper, forget it. It took long enough with a grinder! -Ken ---- Start of Message 15374 ---- From: Tim Rutherford Date: 1997-03-19 12:51:00 Subject: Roy in Indiana The Woodwright himself is coming to our little burg May 16-17 and there are a couple of opportunities for groupies to meet and greet the breathless one. Friday, Roy does a day-long workshop for museum and historic site interpreters. Friday night, he speaks briefly and then adjourns to a reception deal where he will mingle and talk one-on-one with folks. We'll also have, weather permitting, an exhibit of W.F. Barnes and other treadle powereed equipment there. Saturday all day, Roy will participate in a cabin restoration project as part of our regular tour of historic sites. The cabin, circa 1820, is having its sill logs, and some others, replaced. Tickets for Friday night are limited to 175 and are $10 each. Saturday tickets are $6. A combination is $13 a head. Roy's previous books and his new volume will eb available as well. Proceeds from all events will fund the growing budget of our annual (April) heritage week traditional trades demonstrations ('smiths, carvers, chairmaking, woodworking, and me on the treadle lathe). Lodging is available locally, but only if you hurry -- there's a lot going on that time of year. For tickets, info on the interpreter's workshop, and/or lodging info, call 812-682-4488 and tell 'em you saw it on the Internet. Hope to see some midwestern Galoots here at least, Tim ---- Start of Message 15375 ---- From: David Kirtley Date: 1997-03-19 12:59:00 Subject: Re: Planemaking-/Panel Raising J. Gunterman wrote: > > I am still sorely in need of one and my experiments in raising panels using > "regular" planes have failed miserably. > But to make a plane .. that I bet I could do! Been thinking of the same but I have been considering alternatives: Hard Core- Fully chopped throat skew-blade traditional style Built up like Krenov style or like the one in the FWW on planes Built up like the woodsmith kit with brass bound sides Taking transitional mechanisim or cutting profile in a junker transitional plane to match Adding sole and profiling to a iron plane Pierce style Making cutters for #45 to suit Adding depth stop runners to skewed rabbet Making a really big scratch-stock Also considering another alternative- why are they always done horizontally? Isn't it just like a specialized asymetrical match plane profile? Why not handle it like a moulding plane from the edge? Wouldn't it be less likely for tearout? David ---- Start of Message 15376 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-19 07:15:00 Subject: Froes--what of?? One specific answer to this question: the root wood of a dogwood tree. another: persimmon--very good, sometimes the material in a golf club (driver, 3 wood, etc.). Or any hardwood, but no matter which wood, the froe club won't last forever--you'll have to replace it periodically. EB ---- Start of Message 15377 ---- From: Todd Kissam Date: 1997-03-19 13:15:00 Subject: Re: froes At 01:53 AM 3/19/97 -0500, you wrote: >John: > Okay, now that you have the froe, what do you do for the "froe >club"? Put differently, how do you make or find one? > Matt -- not trying to be funny here, but wanting an answer ... > I did not through my $0.02 in last time this subject came up - but what the heck. I really only use a froe to split out handles etc. Only 15 minutes at a time and only a few times a year. When I need a club I go to the firewood pile and pick out a small piece (from a branch - non split) that has a "Y" at the bottom end (where a branch branched off). The "crotch" grain seems to hold up enough for my limited use. BTW, I bought my froe from GW 15 years ago - the handle was socketed like a chairspoke (vs tapered), So the process of using the froe - knocks the blade off of the handle - who was dumber the GW engineer or me for buying it? (Last time I looked they were still selling them this way.) BTW2, If you are not making shingles then these tools are mostly too big. Mine has a 10 or 12" blade, where 6" would be fine for handle making. Todd (Who's first use of the froe was to make a proper handle) ---- Start of Message 15378 ---- From: Gerry Kmack Date: 1997-03-19 13:54:00 Subject: Re: RECORD planes (are they c**p?)[Caution: flammable] At 10:24 PM 3/18/97 -0500, BEAddy@a... wrote: >Was just flipping thru a Wm. Alden Catalog, and saw these inexpensive planes >built by the Record Company. Was wondering if anyone has seen/ heard/ used >these and what they thought of them. > Brant & GGs, I am the (somewhat) proud owner of two late-model Record Planes, as well as a small, but growing collection of vintage Stanley & (new) LN planes. I bought my Record #04 1/2 about a year ago. It was my first plane. It took me about six months of working with the thing to begin to like it. Much of this was due to my initial inexperience with planes in general, but a fair amount of work was required to tune the sucker to the point where it worked well. Advice that I was given shortly after purchasing it was that I had bought a plane "kit". Things I did to "finish" my Record 4 1/2 plane "kit": 1) filed & then polished (a la Scary Sharp(tm)) the underside of the frog, and the corresponding part of the casting where the frog sits - this made the frog move smoothly & precisely. 2) polished (SS again) the TOP of the frog (where the blade sits) - this improved the blade depth adjustment greatly. 3) filed & polished (SS) both sides of the cap iron, (down side) so that it fits the blade snugly, and (up side) so that it *sparkles* (and of course is quite efficient at doing its "chip breaking" job!) okayokay it looks pretty cool too. 4) filed back & polished the "vertical wall" at the leading edge of the mouth. (see the archived article(s) on "Cap Iron Coaching" at http://www.pangea.com/~rock/oldtools/ for more info on this) 5) stripped the gloppy, thick red varnish off the tote & knob (hey there's some nice hardwood under there--maple?) & refinished with oil. - The tote I also shaped & sanded (SS?--nah!) to fit my hand better - it was crudely formed as I got it. 6) Replaced the blade with a Hock 7) the usual plane tuning stuff (flattened & polished the sole, squared & polished the sides, Scary-sharpened the blade, cleaned & lubed all of the adjustments) **CAUTION** Here's the *heretical* part of my posting: I know: that's a lot of work to put into a *new* (translation: "inferior"?) plane. But ya' know what? my 4 1/2 is my *favorite* plane. It works *great!* - with the mouth set tight, it makes edge-to-edge 'hang-time' shavings effortlessly - with a wide mouth setting & aggressive blade setting, it really can remove wood - with almost no tearout. Reasons to buy Record planes: 1) The casting. I'm no expert, but the castings on both of my Record planes seem to be *nicer* than on any "vintage' plane that I have examined. The soles & sides on my Records were *flatter* & appeared to be machined to closer tolerances than any of my "vintage" Stanley planes (both planes required almost no flattening - just polishing). Having said that, the machining on the insides of the castings was pretty bad - rough & ill-fitting. But all of that was remedied fairly well by filing & polishing (see above). 2) It *isn't* a great or classic tool. Think about it. For a newcomer to the (sometimes arcane) world of hand tools, the idea of working on a *classic* tool (like my ca . 1880 #113) can be intimidating. I had no hesitation to strip the yucky varnish off the handles, or to try filing the inside of the mouth. I was the original owner - there were no "ghosts" to offend. I expect that there are experts among the collectors & other fine Galoots out there who will prove me wrong about many of the points that I'm trying to make (particularly the quality of the castings?). Please be assured. I'm not trying to pick any fights, or offend anyone's sensibilities. I'm just a novice galoot who's having no end of fun exploring & learning about hand tools & woodworking. Gerry Kmack (KT#31, IT on order...) who is anxiously awaiting the arrival of an 1880's-era #48 from the MofA... ---- Start of Message 15379 ---- From: Paul Pedersen Date: 1997-03-19 13:46:00 Subject: Re: More Panel Raising... gph is raising panels and lists the steps : >The new method with my "Brian Emery" holdfasts and my flea market panel >raising plane: > > 1. Place holdfast and scrap on stuff with end hanging over bench. > 2. Pop holdfast with a mallot. > 3. Score end grain with marking gauge (unnecessary on side grain) > 4. Plane with panel plane held horizontal until it stops cutting > 5. Tilt plane and continue planing checking with mullet. > 6. Pop back of holdfast to release stuff. > >Wonderful. And these 6 steps are a lot easier than those in the first >list. I am a happy camper. No holes in the panel, either. If #3 is scoring (the face of) the ends of the panel then one could illiminate this step by adding a nicker to the plane. A bit of trouble once, then less trouble forever. Paul P Montreal (Quebec) ---- Start of Message 15380 ---- From: Ed Bell ed.bell@c... Date: 1997-03-19 13:46:00 Subject: Re: RECORD planesI saw a Woodwright show recently that featured Roy using what l Meant to send this to the group but goofed. My apologies to Eric, who'll get two copies --Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 08:34:57 -0500 From: Ed Bell ed.bell@c... Organization: Cincinnati Bell Information Systems To: ecoyle@c... Subject: Re: RECORD planesI saw a Woodwright show recently that featured Roy using what looked like a brand spanking new bright blue Record rebate plane. I was stunned--I've never seen him use anything that looked much newer than the turn of the century. -- Ed Bell P2K North Cincinnati Bell Information Systems email: ed.bell@c...

    ---- Start of Message 15381 ---- From: Esther O. Heller Date: 1997-03-19 13:46:00 Subject: Re: Sweet What?! Mack McKinney wrote: ~ I was perusing my copy of _The Complete Woodworker_ (gloat) by Bernard E. ~ Jones. On page 38 he makes a reference to "sweet oil" which he explicitly ~ notes as not linseed oil. Can anyone out there in Galootdom enlighten me on ~ what sweet oil is? According to my Chemical Synonyms and Trade Names, W Gardner, 1924, 'sweet oil' is colza oil, which in turn is Rapeseed oil from Brassica campestris. Jeff -- Jeff Gorman - West Yorkshire jeff@m... And now sold in grocery stores all over N. America as canola oil. Seems as rape the plant has a bad rap due to rape the verb, so the canny Canadians invented a new socially acceptable name for the product. (Canadian Oil, get it?) Pushed as an unsaturated oil for the health conscious. Esther eoh@k... ---- Start of Message 15382 ---- From: Randy Roeder Date: 1997-03-19 14:00:00 Subject: Hollow ground is ugly Just my 2 cents on the power grinder debate... Hey, I use a grinder (carefully and with a white wheel) from time to time, but the fact of the matter is that hollow ground is often just plain ugly. Heck, I hardly notice a hollow grind on a standard (thin) plane cutter, but on a chisel or a thick or tapered plane blade -- they're just hideous. I think the all time low is a hollow grind that I saw on a Norris A-5. Just fighting the battle for a modicum of good taste ... Randy Roeder Repaint houses, not old tools. ---- Start of Message 15383 ---- From: Steve Knight Date: 1997-03-19 15:18:00 Subject: Re: Hollow ground is ugly On Wed, 19 Mar 1997 08:02:07 -0600, you wrote: >Just my 2 cents on the power grinder debate... > >Hey, I use a grinder (carefully and with a white wheel) from time to time, >but the fact of the matter is that hollow ground is often just plain ugly. It also weakens the edge and leaves no support for the edge. Doggie~ on Irc ---- Start of Message 15384 ---- From: Stephen Noe Date: 1997-03-19 05:29:00 Subject: Re: size of corkborers, and sweet oil redux Larry Williams wrote: >Tell me, how big is the mouth on a cork borer? Can you get one with about >1 1/4" large diameter? Where are they available? Do they make them with >two cutters rather than one? Has anyone tried one of these in wood? At >what angle do the two sides meet at? I just checked the supply room, here, and the largest diamater is 15mm, in 1mm increments down to 3mm OD. Since a corkborer is brass, the metal would seem awfully soft for use in wood. (Cork is bark, remember!) I also noted the Old World definition of sweet oil, so I checked with our pharmacy tech faculty. They were unanimous that it's olive oil. Seems like we may have another case of Churchill's observation that "Britain and the United States are two nations separated by a common language." J. Stephen Noe Human Anatomy and Physiology Department of General Education and Support Services Ivy Tech State College, Indianapolis, IN We are not passengers on Spaceship Earth, we are crew, and it's about time we took our duties seriously. ---- Start of Message 15385 ---- From: Tom Holloway Date: 1997-03-19 15:29:00 Subject: Re: Hollow ground is ugly At 8:02 AM -0600 3/19/97, Randy Roeder wrote: >the fact of the matter is that hollow ground is often just plain ugly. >Heck, I hardly notice a hollow grind on a standard (thin) plane cutter, but >on a chisel or a thick or tapered plane blade -- they're just hideous. Ugliness, as has been noted elsewhere, is in the eye of the beholder. I agree w/ Randy on that level, but there's another issue--deleterious long term effects of periodically regrinding the hollow, which removes just that much more of the (precious) metal near the edge than does a flat bevel, and leaves the tip behind the edge marginally thinner than it needs to be. It probably doesn't help that I'm a klutz, and klutzes + motorized grinders spell potential disaster of wasting edge metal and/or overheating (ruining) the edge, as has also been noted. I don't own a motorized grinder, and don't miss it. I've used a b*lt sandah w/ 120 grit belt a couple of times in the extreme cases analogous to Andrew's broken chisel. But for most regular tuneup, even chips and such, I start with 80 grit SS as needed, removing *just* enough to get the bevel I want, then quickly move down through the grits, working the back as I go. I don't even hone w/ a buffing wheel or polishing compound on leather--just take SS down to 1500 and 2000 grit, in the microbevel, and that sucker is honed, as far as I am concerned. I also add that I'm not talking theory, and don't have a 30x microscope for checking results. The results are in the planing. I understand that deservedly revered galoot-like figures such as Mike Dunbar (in his book on restoring and using hand tools), says "The Way" is to put on a hollow ground bevel with a grinder, then hone with a fine stone. This is in no way meant as a challenge to Mike Dunbar, for whom I have respect approaching awe, but I think such a procedure might have developed from the fact that most of us alive today have grown up in a world where there was usually a bench grinder over in the metal corner of the shop. I really fail to see any advantage of a hollow ground blade for edge tools, ugliness aside. On the contrary, it thins the tip excessively, IMO, thus potentially weakening and leading to more rapid depletion of same over time. Tom Holloway, who sharpens lawn mower blades w/ a hand held M*kita demon thing, but that's not in the realm of the porch, or the WW shop. ---- Start of Message 15386 ---- From: Kinsey Date: 1997-03-19 15:39:00 Subject: Re:Crowned vs dished The question was raised whether a dished flywheel would run with a flat belt. Answer: no. And it probably won't work well with a round belt either. The round belt pretty much needs a vee groove to run in. Both pulleys of the set should be slightly crowned for a flat belt to track properly. I don't want to try to explain it without being able to draw pictures, but it is related to the reason that a car wheel tries to climb up a low curb rather than being deflected away. Your best bet, if you want to use the iron flywheel is to make a wooden, crowned pulley to bolt onto the iron one (U bolts around the spokes??) ted ---- Start of Message 15387 ---- From: David Erickson Date: 1997-03-19 15:45:00 Subject: Re: Hollow ground is ugly > > >Just my 2 cents on the power grinder debate... > > > >Hey, I use a grinder (carefully and with a white wheel) from time to = > time, > >but the fact of the matter is that hollow ground is often just plain = > ugly. > > It also weakens the edge and leaves no support for the edge. Depends on the wheel diameter. There is nothing ugly or weak about hollow grinds done on large grinding wheels. Even a 10" does a respectable job. Dave Erickson ---- Start of Message 15388 ---- From: Thomas Ellis Date: 1997-03-19 15:36:00 Subject: Re[2]: Grinders and the need for them Tim Fuss wrote: > In my case two of my scrub planes had their irons ground off flat by the previous owners. I did try reshaping with sandpaper, forget it. It took long enough with a grinder! .................... This is funny. I've recently bought a wooden jointer, skewed rabbet, and Stanley 78 that all had strong radiuses that I had to bring flat. -Tom Ellis ---- Start of Message 15389 ---- From: Steve Knight Date: 1997-03-19 15:51:00 Subject: Re: Hollow ground is ugly On Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:45:11 -0800 (PST), you wrote: >> It also weakens the edge and leaves no support for the edge. > >Depends on the wheel diameter. There is nothing ugly or weak about >hollow grinds done on large grinding wheels. Even a 10" does >a respectable job. I almost only use laminated steel. Hollow grinding would weaken that edge. Anyway a powered sander is faster does a flat bevel and no overheating. A much better way to go. Doggie~ on Irc ---- Start of Message 15390 ---- From: Kinsey Date: 1997-03-19 15:53:00 Subject: Re: Deep Philosophy of Grinding Old Tools Doug Dawson wrote > If you stop and pause over this, you've raised a most fascinating > point. Let's consider why these tools were "disposed of". Do we > dare assume that the reason why they were found at a flea market > or auction or whatever, is because they didn't work anymore because > the cutting edge was bad/rounded/out-of-square and so forth? I'd > have to defer to Patrick and the other oldtool historians on this, > but I rather think not. > > One might assume that these were working tools _then_, and they > are working tools _now_. With the possible exception of tools that > have been seriously damaged by rust, I'm not convinced that any > of these tools need to have their bevels etc. monkeyed with to get > them to work. > > To the point, having to mess drastically ( i.e. grinder-ize ) the > bevels etc. of these edges, is, one might argue, _us_ _imposing_ > what we think a tool should "look like", on tools that were in > all likelihood working justfinethanks in the first place. > > It would be interesting and thought-provoking to hear other > peoples' comments on this perhaps heretical notion. > As the very existence of the group demonstrates, how to treat and use hand tools is not particularly obvious. It is pretty clear that many of the old tools have been used/sharpened by an idiot at some time. An idiot who had no clue what he was doing or what was appropriate. "Hey, I've got a grinder and I can sharpen anything!" Why should one suppose that everyone who has inherited a tool in its history knew what he/she was doing. I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of them didn't! Think of all the chisels used for screwdrivers and vice-versa; the butchered planes, iron and wood; and so on. Do you really mean that when I see a wood molding plane with the profile altered, the throat hacked open and the wedge replaced by a whittled stick that " (we are)... imposing what we think a tool should "look like", on tools that were in all likelihood working justfinethanks in the first place." Or that someone's freehand grinder job is necessarily correct? "heretical notion?" I think so. ted (who won't let the well meaning guy who has a grinder at home take the tools from the museum and "fix them up".) ---- Start of Message 15391 ---- From: Brendler, Ralph Date: 1997-03-19 16:01:00 Subject: New web resource for marking gages Esteemed Galoots: At the risk of further ridicule from Messrs. Leach and O'Deen (who simply don't understand my fascination with marking gages), I have just added a new series of pages dealing with Stanley's marking gage offerings to my web site. It's intended to be sort of a B&G for marking gages, which contains most vital statistics of Stanley's gage offerings over the years, and some personal commentary on use and collectability. It falls quite short of the monumental achievement that is SB&G, but still has some useful info if you're into marking gages. So, if you've ever lain awake at night wondering whether the Stanley #65-3/4 was ever available in beech, these are the pages for you! ;-) Check out the "Stanley Gage Page" at: http://www.mcs.net/~brendler/oldtools/gages/gagepage.htm or through the link in the "collecting" area of my OldTools page. ralph ============================================================ Ralph Brendler (ENB/FOYBIPO/OTLM) Chicago, IL Woodworker and Collector of Antique Marking Gages http://www.mcs.net/~brendler/oldtools ---- Start of Message 15392 ---- From: Tom Johnson Date: 1997-03-19 16:02:00 Subject: old wet grinders I'm still curious so I'm running this again. I have an old wet grinder that just doesn't remove any metal anymore. I'd like to dress the wheel but don't know how to proceed....whether to mix water-soluble cutting oil in that kind of sharpening environment etc. I also has a question about grinder rpms. My argument was that the correct criteria for grinding should not be (rpm) but surface feet per second (sfs). In other words, it seems to me that a 10" wheel o a slow speed grinder is probably abrading faster than a 6" wheel on a 3450!!! I haven't run the math, but you get the point. Shouldn't there be an optimal sfs? Where are the engineers out there..help? And for those who got their education the way I have (trial and error) is there a correct rpm and/or sps for these old wet grinders? Thanks Tom Johnson ---- Start of Message 15393 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-19 16:02:00 Subject: Re: Using a mullet and sizing that raised panel In a message dated 97-03-19 05:25:37 EST, franklin@h... (Franklin Ferrier) writes: << Does one simply bevel the panel edge until it bottoms out snuggly in the < mullet test? Some sketches I've seen in the texts seem to depict a I'm working my way towards building some internal room doors and I'm >concerned that I don't end up with panels that are too loose. You can pin them in the center of each rail, top and bottom, to keep them from rattling. I didn't pin mine, since I don't much care if they rattle in the winter or not.:^) Actually, if you pop a door off and shake it, it will rattle. But they don't rattle in normal opening and closing. Ray T. ---- Start of Message 15394 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-19 16:23:00 Subject: Re: grinders, and the need for them... In a message dated 97-03-18 16:02:30 EST, dawson@p... (Doug Dawson) writes: << When people are talking about grinders here, are you talking about re-conditioning badly abused tools that you have purchased, or do you really mean that you grind down your tools as a matter of course when you work with them? >> Both. I use a norm grinder for reconditioning, and sometimes for reforming bevels on tools in use. Most tools I find at a flea market or antique meet have spent years being tossed around in boxes, and the edges suffer. Many were inherited by people who didn't understand how to sharpen them, and the edges may be way out of square, chisels may have the corners rounded off, etc. There is no quicker way to restore a square, chip-free edge to an abused tool than on a norm grinder. You simply set the rest to 90 degrees and grind the edge square, then set the rest to 25 or 30 degees and grind in the bevel. Then hone the edge in your preferred method. For tools that are in use, I sometimes use the grinder to reform a bevel on wide chisels and some plane irons when the working bevel is getting too long to touch up quickly. Grinding is fast, easy, and accurate, assuming you have a good tool rest and know what you are doing. It is a misconception that people who use a grinder use up their irons quicker than those who do not. Grinding makes no difference in how fast an iron is used up. You never grind all the way to the edge, and the iron is the same exact length before and after grinding. Grinding lets you form a new bevel quickly, so you can hone the edge and get back to work. To each his own. People who don't like grinders should avoid them. I like honing a sharp edge as much as anyone else, but forming the entire bevel on a wide piece of old cast steel is not my idea of fun. Ray T. ---- Start of Message 15395 ---- From: Ron Hock Date: 1997-03-19 16:54:00 Subject: Re: Planemaking -- blade Q/A At 07:10 PM 3/18/97 -0500, you wrote: >At 2:55 PM -0500 3/18/97, Robert Brazile wrote: > >>>I am about to embark (time permitting) on making a panel plane. I could, if >>>people were interested, take a photo document of the making progress to >>>encourage people to do the same... > >>I suspect I speak for others when I say that there is considerable interest >>in such a thing. > >Ohh PLEASE do share your experinces! >I am still sorely in need of one and my experiments in raising panels using >"regular" planes have failed miserably. >But to make a plane .. that I bet I could do! >maybee we could commision Ron Hock to make up a batch of spiffy blades for >our endeavours!?!?! > Let me know what they should look like and I'll let you know what they will cost. Always happy to help. Ron "blades R us" Ron Hock http://www.mcn.org/a/rhock/hockhome.htm Hock Handmade Knives 16650 Mitchell Creek Drive Fort Bragg, CA 95437 (707) 964-2782 fax (707) 964-7816 ---- Start of Message 15396 ---- From: Geoff Kimbrough Date: 1997-03-19 16:54:00 Subject: Re: Planemaking--- (not) very long > > >>I am about to embark (time permitting) on making a panel plane. I could, if > >>people were interested, take a photo document of the making progress to > >>encourage people to do the same... > > >I suspect I speak for others when I say that there is considerable interest > >in such a thing. > > Ohh PLEASE do share your experinces! > I am still sorely in need of one and my experiments in raising panels using > "regular" planes have failed miserably. > But to make a plane .. that I bet I could do! > maybee we could commision Ron Hock to make up a batch of spiffy blades for > our endeavours!?!?! Assuming that we're talking about a wooden panel plane, not requiring serious metalwork, I'm also interested in this project. IMHO, an infill panel plane would be a bit of overkill, and anyway I'm too intimidated by metal to really want to build one -- I mean two, since the ideal is a *pair* of panel planes. ---- Start of Message 15397 ---- From: Paul Houtz Date: 1997-03-19 17:23:00 Subject: Re: More Panel Raising... Paul P writes: >Paul H. wrote: > >>The new method with my "Brian Emery" holdfasts and my flea market panel >>raising plane: >> >> 1. Place holdfast and scrap on stuff with end hanging over bench. >> 2. Pop holdfast with a mallot. >> 3. Score end grain with marking gauge (unnecessary on side grain) >> 4. Plane with panel plane held horizontal until it stops cutting >> 5. Tilt plane and continue planing checking with mullet. >> 6. Pop back of holdfast to release stuff. >> >>Wonderful. And these 6 steps are a lot easier than those in the first >>list. I am a happy camper. No holes in the panel, either. > >If #3 is scoring (the face of) the ends of the panel then one could >illiminate this step by adding a nicker to the plane. A bit of trouble >once, then less trouble forever. Don't I know it. But I have this old panel plane that I bought at a flea market, and it is an owner-made plane with a stamp on it no one has heard of, and it is such a nice little tool just as it is (and has been for at least 100 years), I can't bring myself to modify it at all. I am on the lookout for a longer panel plane with a nicker built in and maybe a curve to the sole for a better fit in the frame (for cabinet doors). A handle would be nice, too. In the mean time, I have a marking gauge that has only one purpose: to be used with this plane on endgrain. It works for me. ---- Start of Message 15398 ---- From: John Crane Date: 1997-03-19 17:57:00 Subject: This Panel Plane or that Panel Plane I get the impression that there are two types of panel planes being discussed in the recent panel raising/plane making threads. I know what a "Panel raising" plane is. It is a plane shaped to the profile that will be on all four sides of a "raised panel". What I don't understand is the other "panel" plane that has been mentioned a number of times on the list. Could some kind soul please give a solid definition for a "panel" plane? Also a bit of insight as to why it's called a "panel" plane would be great! Thanks in advance. JC ---- Start of Message 15399 ---- From: Larry McVoy Date: 1997-03-19 18:26:00 Subject: Re: RECORD planes (are they crap?) [comments that Record is OK deleted] Record planes are what got me into old planes a few years back. I had started down the power tool path, realized I liked stuff that didn't make noise, and bought a Record block plane, a 9 1/2 clone. Junk. Just pure junk. The bed for the blade was tilted to the point that you couldn't adjust the blade square in the mouth. Not knowing about tuning planes, I took it back. I looked at 6 of 'em in the store - they were all like that. For $50 each. Sheesh. I got my money back, somehow met Dave Paling and got a 9 1/4 from him for $20. Excellent plane. Now I'm into him for maybe a couple of grand but I'm much happier. Conclusion: you'll have tune Record planes just like anything else. If you are going to do that, why not buy old tools that are made better and tune (or not tune as the case may be) them instead? ---- Start of Message 15400 ---- From: Andrew Barss Date: 1997-03-19 18:46:00 Subject: Re: This Panel Plane or that Panel Plane On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, John Crane wrote: > I get the impression that there are two types of panel planes > being discussed in the recent panel raising/plane making > threads. > > I know what a "Panel raising" plane is. It is a plane shaped > to the profile that will be on all four sides of a "raised panel". > > What I don't understand is the other "panel" plane that has been > mentioned a number of times on the list. > > Could some kind soul please give a solid definition for a "panel" > plane? Also a bit of insight as to why it's called a "panel" plane > would be great! > > Thanks in advance. > JC My understanding is that it's a medium-length plane, used for face jointing panels. (Due to its intended use, it can be shorter than a jointer used for long edges.) Most of the English and Scottish infill planemakers (Spiers, Norris, Mathieson, Buck & Ryan) made high-end infill panel planes, which look to be midway in length between a smoother and a long jointer, e.g. 12 1'2" and 15 1/2" for Norris' cast iron panel planes. The catalog reprints in Roberts' *Scottish and English Metal Planes* sometimes co-lists panel and jointer planes in a series of lengths, suggesting the distinction was a gradual, not absolute one. Given the weight of an infill jointer (I don't have one, just lifted one once), I bet it was a popular size in infills. Whether there were more workaday panel planes manufactured across the pond I don't know, but there might have been. -- Andrew ---- Start of Message 15401 ---- From: Patrick White Date: 1997-03-19 18:57:00 Subject: Re: old wet grinders I'm still curious so I'm running this again. I have an old wet grinder that just doesn't remove any metal anymore. I'd like to dress the wheel but don't know how to proceed....whether to mix water-soluble cutting oil in that kind of sharpening environment etc. I'd hesistate to use oil on a stone that wasn't used with oil originally, and it should be reasonably obvious if it was used since the oil won't evaporate. I can't think of anything _bad_ that could happen, but it just seems like an unwise idea as once done it probably isn't reversible. Is there some reason the methods used for dressing modern apprentice powered grinding wheels can't be adapted? > I also has a question about grinder rpms. My argument was that the correct > criteria for grinding should not be (rpm) but surface feet per second (sfs). > In other words, it seems to me that a 10" wheel o a slow speed grinder is > probably abrading faster than a 6" wheel on a 3450!!! I haven't run the math, Assuming circumference of a circle is 2*PI*r (from memory, so maybe that's the wrong formula): 10" wheel has 31.4 inches, or 2.6 ft of circumference. 6" wheel has 18.8 inches, or 1.5 ft of circumference. 6" wheel at 3280 RPM yields 4920 ft./min past the work. 10" wheel at 70 RPM yields 182 ft./min past the work. In order for a wheel to turn at 70 RPM and still have the ft./min of a 6" wheel at 3280 RPM, it would have to be 265.6 inches in diameter (or about 22 ft. or 6.75m or about at tall as a 2-story house.. I can only imagine some galoot treadle-powering such a beast :-). but you get the point. Shouldn't there be an optimal sfs? Where are the engineers out there..help? I _thought_ part of the idea with the hand- or foot- powered grinding wheels was that the rotational speed could be varied for different jobs or different parts of the same job, say slower to prevent burning an edge. The tailed apprentice won't easily do _that_. If that's indeed the case, then there is only an optimal RPM for a specific job, not in general. -- later, Pat White (work: patbob@s..., (503) 578-3463, fax: (503) 578-5797) Aloha, Oregon: USDA zone 8, Sunset zone 6 (or so they say) ---- Start of Message 15402 ---- From: Roger Birkhead Date: 1997-03-19 18:57:00 Subject: Re: Cork Borer Larry Williams wrote: Ok! When I read the description of this thing it sounded very much like my experiment at making a tool to make conical eyed escapements for rabbet planes and such. My experiment didn't work very well.8^( Too big a mouth on the sucker, I guess. It just had too much tear-out when cutting against the grain. The tool in question is a cork borer sharpener. Sorry to burst your bubble but I don't think it will work for the application you want, i.e. boring escapements . I don't know of anyplace that has a picture, but basically they are a bronze or brass cone on a handle with a blade that folds out from the big end like a jacknife. The blade is therefore not like an inside-out pencil sharpener like I think you are envisioning. Sorry, this won't work for you. Roger ---- Start of Message 15403 ---- From: Date: 1997-03-19 18:39:00 Subject: Re: More Panel Raising... In a message dated 97-03-19 12:30:09 EST, gph@h... (Paul Houtz) writes: << I am on the lookout for a longer panel plane with a nicker built > in and maybe a curve to the sole for a better fit in the frame > (for cabinet doors). A handle would be nice, too. In the > mean time, I have a marking gauge that has only one purpose: to > be used with this plane on endgrain. It works for me. >> My cove raising plane doesn't have a knicker either, and I really haven't missed it all that much. I've marked a line on a homemade cutting gauge so I can easily find the right setting to use when raising a panel on 3/4" stock. A couple of passes with the gauge to cut a nice deep line across the end of the panel is all it needs. The skew action of the blade cuts a pretty clean shoulder, even on cross grain, after it gets below the cut line from the gauge. Any roughness on the shoulder is usually a result of me not keeping the angle of the plane constant, rather than the absence of a knicker. The dropped shoulder is a cove shape rather than a sharp corner, and any roughness cleans up easily with a couple of swipes from a #2 Appleton round. Ray T. ---- Start of Message 15404 ---- From: Erv Schaffer Date: 1997-03-19 15:11:00 Subject: RE:Disston D-20 Bet you're tired of discussing this D-20's saw, but one other item just discovered is that the D-20 was of better quality that the very popular D-8! A note in a Disston "Tool Manual for School Shops" c. 1927 states" "Because it is a better grade than the D-8, the D-20 saw is slightly higher in cost than the D-8". In addition, "The blade is of Disston-made steel, carved applewood handle, larger hand hole, new grip, new weatherproof finish, brass screws, Disston steel blade and Disston true -taper grind". Enough already???? (grin) Erv Schaffer (ErvSaws) ---- Start of Message 15405 ---- From: Christopher E. Dunn Date: 1997-03-19 19:37:00 Subject: Re: grinders, and the need for them... Subj: RE: grinders, and the need for them... > (I do own a hand grinder, but have been unable to locate a 4" replacement whe` > for it). Andrew, I got a 4" X 1" white AlO wheel from Grainger's. It has a 1/2" hole and I used a Grainger bushing to match my hand grinder. The wheel I got was: Spec: 38A60-M5VBE Granger #: 2D257 Norton #: 662435-30126 Grainger price: $10.31 Grainger has other 4" wheels in 1/4" & 1/2" thicknesses with !/2" & 3/4" holes. Grainger website: http://www.grainger.com/ Chris ---- Start of Message 15406 ---- From: Tim Fuss Date: 1997-03-19 20:39:00 Subject: Keeping 'em together As promised, I'll spill the details on my latest chisel acquisition. Last weekend, I stopped into a local antique mall to see if anything new had shown up. Every once in a while, I do find some goodies there. In the first booth, there was a junky looking tool box on the floor, almost under the table. It would have been really easy to just pass this by, but I've finally trained myself to look *in* containers. In the top tray, there were some assorted tools: pliers, tape measure, stone, calipers (yadda, yadda) and a couple of chisels. Hmmm... Bartons! Lifting the tray out revealed a wonderful sight: 11 more chisels! Of course there was a downside, the price tag said $140. Ouch. I decided to be good and left without them. But I couldn't stop thinking about them. Sitting on that cold floor, waiting for some (other) schmoe to come along. On Monday, I tried posting a note asking for a sanity check on the price. About ten bucks apiece was starting to sound okay. The post never made it, so Tuesday after work I went back for them. Typical mall 10% off, but tax put 8% back on (you're welcome, Guv' ... aarrrgh). So the take: 13 matching D.R. Barton chisels (1882 logo) Rochester, NY (one has a big chunk out of the business end). Sizes from 1/4 to 5/8 by 1/16 increments, plus 3/4, 7/8, 1, 1 1/4, 1 3/4 (the broken one), and 2", with some of the original handles intact. The two pairs of pliers are really quite nice, and have replaced my other really ugly set. Even a couple of the calipers look useful. The tool box is pretty disposable, but there was also one of those big @ssed